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V, 1
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
THIRD SESSION
ON
H. Res. 282
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI-
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN-
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL
LEGISLATION
VOLUME 12
FEBRUARY 7, 8, 10, MARCH 25, 28, 29, APRIL 2, 3, 4, 1940
AT WASHINGTON, D. C.
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIYES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
THIRD SESSION
ON
H. Res. 282
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI-
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN-
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL
LEGISLATION
VOLUME 12
FEBRUARY 7, 8, 10, MARCH 25, 28, 29, APRIL 2, 3, 4, 1940
AT WASHINGTON, D. C.
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
84931 WASHINGTON : 1940
^75
SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AJVIERICAN ACTIVITIES
WASHINGTON, D. C.
MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman
JOHN J. DEMPSEY, New Mexico NOAH M. MASON, Illinois
JOE STARNES, Alabama J. I'AKNELL THOMAS, New Jersey
JERRY VOORHIS, California
JOSEPH E. CASEY, Massachusetts
Robert E. Steipling, Secretary
Robert E. Lynch^ Counsel
J. B. Matthews, Director of Research
C 0 N T E N T S
Page
Barker, Robert B : 7671
Blumberg, Dr. Albert E 7486
Blumberg, Mrs. Dorothy Rose 7453
Burlak, Ann \ 7609
Dickstein, Hon. Samuel 7521
Dolsen, .James Hulse 7335
Frankfeld, Phil 7608
Hurley, George F 7664
Johnson, Vincent 7605
Kramer, Hon. Charles 7525
Lawry, Richard H 7476, 7591
Murray, Enunet Leonard 7468
O'Deai Thomas F. P 7555
Pelley, William Dudley 7201, 7223, 7271
Powers, George 7421
Randall, Charles 7671
Rubley, Samuel J 7629
Waring, Dorothy 7538
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
wednesday, february 7, 1940
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate
Un-American Activities,
Washington., D. C.
The committee met at 2:80 p. m., Hon. Joe Starnes (acting chair-
man) presiding. Also present were Representatives Dempsey, Mason,
Thomas. Voorhis, and Casey, members of the committee.
Air. Starxes. The connnittee will come to order. The committee
is called into session this afternoon for the purpose of receiving some
testimony from Mr. Pelley concerning the activities of the Silver
Shirt Legion, the work of that group, and its membership. I think
it is fair to state that the cliairman of the full committee is not
jjresent due to his continued illness, and the record should show at
this time that the connnittee is having to operate without the benefit
of an attorney and its regular investigating staff.
Also, I wish it to be shown as a matter of record that Mr. Robert
B. Barker, who was commissioned by the chairman of the committee
to conduct an investigation of Mr. Pelley and the Silver Shirt Legion
is not present. He, too. has been ill. but I may now announce to the
committee that he is out and Ave expect him to be present tomorrow
or Friday for a continuation of these hearings.
With the consent of tlie full committee, I suggest that the witness
be sworn, that a })reliminary examination be held this afternoon,
and then tliat the hearing be adjourned over until tomorrow, in order
that the members of the connnittee may be more adequately prepared
to help in the presentation of this investigation in this particular
case. The connnittee is interested only in ascertaining the truth and
the facts concerning Mr. Pelley and his organization. We are not
concerned with anvthing else. The committee's work is finished
when we have com])leted the examination of Mr. Pelley and his record
and notified him that he is no longer needed as to the testimony
in connection with this particular case.
Mr. Pellev, we aie meeting in this room and the acoustics are bad
and we are some distance from each other and we will speak as loud
as we can and you also, we will liave to ask you to speak rather
distinctly. Please stand up and be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM DUDLEY PELLEY, HEAD OF THE SILVER
SHIRT LEGION
Air. Starnes. At the present time you are under subpena, Mr.
Pelley ?
Air. Pellet. I am, sir.
7201
7202 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. And for the record we will state that you shall be
under the subpena of the committee and under the Jurisdiction of
this committee until we have concluded our investigation of you
and your organization.
Mr. Pellet. Quite right.
Mr. Starnes. Will you give for the record your full name and
address.
Mr. Pellet. William D. Pelley, Asheville, N. C.
Mr. Starnes. Where were you born, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pellet. Lynn, Mass., March 12, 1890.
Mr. Starnes. Will you state your educational training and back-
ground ?
Mr. Pellet. I was educated in the public schools of Gardner,
Mass., and Springfield, Mass. I left school in the second year of
high school and entered busines.
Mr. Starnes. What business did you enter?
Mr. Pellet. The paper manufacturing business, for 3 years.
Mr. Starnes. After that what was your business?
Mr. Pellet. Writing and publishing.
Mr. Starnes. And, how long have you continued in that capacity ?
Mr. Pellet. Approximately for 25 years past, since 1915.
Mr. Starnes. By whom have you been employed?
Mr. Pellet. Myself.
Mr. Starnes. Y ou have operated yourself as a free agent or as one
not in the capacity of owner and manager of the respective publica-
tions which you have owned, conducted, or edited ?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Will you name those publications for the record?
Mr. Pellet. The Wilmington Times, 1912 to 1915; the St. Johns-
bury Evening Calladonian, St. Johnsbury, Vt., and an evening news-
paper, 1917 to 1920; the Bed Book, American Magazine, Collier's
Weekly, 1920 to 1930. Since 1932 my own publishing house, Libera-
tion Magazine, a weekly and patriotic review.
Mr. Starnes. During this time have you contributed to any jour-
nals, magazines, or publications not owned or published by you ?
Mr. Pellet. On two occasions, fiction stories under a pseudonym.
Mr. Starnes. What was that pseudonym?
Mr. Pellet. William Godail.
Mr. Starnes. What were the publications?
Mr. Pellet. Liberty Magazine and Woman's Home Companion.
That material was fiction strictly.
Mr. Starnes. Were you the sole owner of your publication con-
ducted in Asheville, N. C, in 1932?
Mr. Pellet. The Liberation Magazine was ongmally projected by
Galahad Press, the stock ownership of which I owned one third of,
prior to the dissolution of the corporation in 1934. Does that answer
your question?
Mr. Starnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. May I ask a question at this point?
Mr. Starnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. I would like to know, in connection with the Gala-
had Press, Mr. Pelley, did you furnish the original funds to start
that with ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7203
.Mr. Pei.lj:y. No, Mr. Voorhis. The original funds for that were
secured by the solicitation on the part of my own friends' efforts
around the United States who were interested in my esoteric pub-
lications, who contributed approximately and roughly I should say
$5,000 for the purchase of preferred stock, which capital was used
to finance the publications of the Galahad Press.
Mr. Voorhis. Did those people ever receive any financial return
from that or was it just a contribution?
Mr. 1'kllky. Because of their interest in the work I was doing,
and it was made in the way of donations.
Mr. ^'^ooRHis. Did thev receive any returns on it?
:Mr. Peli^y. No. May I qualify that? In 1934, I will put it this
way, I will say the word "assailed," that they assailed sonie of our
economic and "political writings. The situation developed in North
Carolina wliere it was necessary to apply for an involuntary bank-
ruptcy in order to discharge what I termed a biased receivership.
The hrst thing that the receivership did was to close down an
extremely profitable publication with a reA'enue approximating $35,000
a year.
Mr. Voorhis. ^V\mt was that publication?
Mr. Pelley. The Liberation. The publication was forced to cease,
thereby depriving the stockholders who owned the publication and for
whose corporate name the publication was issuecl, of that revenue.
That publication ''Liberation"' continued shut down, I believe, for
a period of about 17 months. After the litigation was adjusted, I
]"esumed it under my own name or the trade name of Pelley
Publications.
Mr. VooRiiis. Is that an incorporation ?
]Mr. Pelley. No. That is my personal trade name for my publish-
ing activities, as distinguished from my manufacturing printmg con-
cern which is known as the Skyland Press.
]Mr. Voorhis. And which is incorporated ?
Mr. Pelley. And which is incorporated under the laws of North
Carolina and my wife and myself have the full control.
Mr. Voorhis. The investigators have furnished information before
this committee indicating that during the time we have been talking
about vou opened a personal banking account here in Washington,
D. C?
Mr. Pelley. Are vou referring to a bank account in the Libertv
Bank ?
Mr. Voorhis. I believe so.
Mr, Pelley. I also had a bank account with the Franklin Bank,
and I must qualify my statement. The difference between my pub-
lisliing activities and a line of esoteric and metaphysical material for
the Liberation, which I was issuing at that time under the name of the
league. Tliat work could not be carried on by a publishing concern,
because it had the supervision of distribution of esoteric and meta-
j^liysical material to grou[)s around the nation, who met once a week
for tlie study of that material.
I incorporated under the laws of the District of Columbia. My
declaration is properly filed, the League for the Liberation, no cap-
ital, no profits, no salaries: that and the revenue wliich I was still
getting on the royalties from my books, such fiction writing as I was
7204 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
doin^, was approximately the moneys deposited in these local banks.
Mr. VooRHis. And that ran to about what figure?
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Voorliis, I cannot tell you that. I would, if I
could.
Mr. VooRHis. $29,000; would it be about that?
Mr. Peleey. It mip;ht be, over a 17-month period.
Mr. VooRHis. Tliose accounts were o])ened at the time the Galahad
Press was in operation ?
Mr. Pelley. I believe the Galahad Press, relyinp; on my memory, at
that time, while these accounts were operated in Washington; we
also maintained in New York an oiRce at 11 West Forty-second
Street, and I believe that the bank account — and there was a third
bank account, in the Manufacturers' Trust Co., Fifth Avenue and
Forty-third Street.
Mr. VooRHis. The Galahad Press went through bankruptcy, did
it not?
Mr. Peeley. Yes, indeed. That is right.
j\Ir. VooRHis. And at the same time that was happening you did
have these other bank accounts?
Mr. Pelley. That is correct, but I might qualify it. Just a
moment, Mr. Voorhis. At that time, too, I was getting revenue from
my various secular writings, because I published four novels, and
naturally those royalties have accrued from time to time although
I do not say that that was exclusively the money that was in these
banks re])resentinir the royalties and nothing else.
Mr. VooRHis. Were the creditors of Galahad Press paid off?
Mr. Pelley. The creditors of Galahad Press never got a cent; but,
Mr. Voorhis, there were assets in the Galahad Press properties in
Asheville, N. C., to pay off those creditors, and I severely criticize
the executors of Galahad Press for not having taken care of these
stockholders properly. They tarnished a $35,000 publication rather
than have it go out' to the Nation with the political writings that
were in it.
Mr. Casey. Was that a receivership appointed by the court?
Mr. Pelley. The receiver was first appointed and then the volun-
tary petition in bankruptcy was filed later, and the referee in bank-
ruptcy— is that the one that takes charge in that event?
Mr. Casey. The trustee?
Mr. Pelley. The trustee.
Mr. Casey. The whole proceeding of dissolution of the Galahad
Press was under the supervision of the Federal court?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir ; that is right.
Mr. Voorhis. Wasn't there shortly after that organized a Founda-
tion for (Christian Economics, and didn't that foundation take a
mortgage on the property of the Galahad Press?
Mr. Pelley. No, Mr. Voorhis. That is not true. That was a
statement made at the time that I refute. Here is what happened:
I had started off my esoteric and metaphysical publishing with the
Galahad Press. I found that it was necessary to supply material to
large numbers of metaphysical students throughout the Nation at
these weekly meetings, and therefore I continued this foundation
here in Washington to service those students. Later on, a period of
6 or 8 months, it became necessary to educate, enlighten, and train
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIF]S 7205
people in the metnphysieul ])iiiu'iples I was tittenipling to expound.
For that {)uriH)se 1 went to North Carolina on a tender of an under-
writing- of a school in North Carolina to teach the principles that I
was expoundin«r. It became necessary for me, after arrivin*:^ there,
t(. enter into a proposition called the Foundation for Christian
Economics.
Mr. VooKHis. Where did the money come from for that?
Mr. Pellky. There was almost no money for that exceptino; such
tuitions fi-om people who came in to attend the summer school at
Asheville.
Mr. VooRiiis. From the reports we have, there was an amount of
$81,000?
Mi-. Pixley. You have been sadly misinformed, Mr. Voorhis.
There was no such amount as $81,000 involved in that case.
jVIr. Voorhis. You deny that that was the case?
Mr. Pelley. I deny it, decidedly. As a matter of fact, I would
say, supplementing my testimony, there was not $10,000 involved.
If my memory serves me correctly, there was approximately $6,600
involved in the wake of that summer school in Asheville, and I want
to <iualify this too. After I had conducted that summer school for
U months, it became impracticable to run a ndnor colletje of that
nature around there in North Carolina. Therefore, I altered the
nature of that Asheville, N. C, proposition and conducted this in-
struction by mail — a correspondence course.
I would like to add — I cannot guess, I have not the figures in
front of me — but my tax returns show it, any amount which the
tuitions on that Foundation Fellowship, as we call it, that corre-
spondence course which we call the Foundation Fellowship — I cannot
tell you what that amount was, but we made an income-tax return
to the State of North Carolina for the amounts involved in that
project.
Mr. Voorhis. And that would have gone through the bank ac-
count of the Christian Economics?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Were tliese moneys coming in at the same time that
these other accounts were running also?
Mr. Pelley. No. sir; I would say 6 or 8 months later.
Mr. Voorhis. But these bank accounts in Washington were run-
ning at the same time?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. The Galahad Press at that time was insolvent?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir. It was not insolvent, and I make the state-
ment that at no time was the Galahad Press insolvent. I want to
clarify that this way for the record. We had found in the report of
our 1982 Federal income tax — all right?
Mr. Starnes. Yes; go right ahead. Had you finished your
answer?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; I thought I was saying something I should
not have said.
Mr, Starnes. No. Go right ahead.
Mr. Pelley. I found that the 103'2 income taxes had not included
the depots of material which I had deposited around the United
States — Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles — and I discov-
7206 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ered that after the income-tax return was made, I think I explained
to the income-tax man, all of which made it right. When these were
properly entered npon our books the Galahad Press was not insolvent.
Mr. Casey. Did you take any steps in the bankruptcy proceedings
to establish that fact, that the Galahad Press was not insolvent?
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Casey, I battled for 7 months down in North
Carolina in the attempt to make this thing clear and was not allowed
to enter certain testimony in that record.
Mr. Casey. Who forbade you to do that?
Mr. Pelley. It was not a case of anybody forbidding me. It was
a case of not being able to get it into the legal record at the time that
I was arraigned for this situation in North Carolina.
Mr. Casey. You mean you did not have the material available at
that time ?
Mr. Pelley. I had the material available, and I had called in, Mr.
Casey, all of the material in these depots I have mentioned all over
the United States. I had it in Asheville. I had it stored in my
garage in Beaver Lake, and I wanted the jury to go up there and
look at it, because if they had looked at it the thing would not have
been insolvent and I would not have been involved in the criminal
charge.
Mr. Casey. The point I am making is, the judge would not allow
you to do that?
Mr. Pelley. No ; I would not say it was the judge. It was what I
would better term "a mistake between counsel" as to "w^hether the
evidence was relevant.
Mr. Casey. You had counsel ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And were represented in these proceedings ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. And he, your counsel, made an agreement with the
other counsel ?
Mr. Pelley. No ; I would not say that.
Mr. Casey. I thought you said it was not a judge before, but that
it was an agreement of counsel ?
Mr. Pelley. There is an avenue here that we have got to explore
for a moment, if you will indulge me. Mr. Dickstein, Mr. McCor-
mick, and Mr. Cramer and other members of the investigating com-
mittee came to Asheville in 1934, April of 1934, and made it very
difficult, exceedingly difficult, for us to continue our activities. I
will put it this way : I had been warned before, so far as the Galahad
Press was concerned, to pay the stockholders what they had paid in,
and because a situation had arisen where I had only one-third of the
stock in the Galahad Press, one-third of the voting common stock in
a $10,000 corporation, allowed me in Albany, N. Y. — the other two-
thirds was in the hands of two women employees who had left my
employ and had gone away — therefore I Avas liable for somebody to
pick up that stock and perhaps controlling my corporation. There-
fore, I attempted to liquidate that corporation.
Mr. Casey. All of this is beyond my question.
Mr. Pelley. No ; it is not, please.
Mr. Casey. Wait until I finish my questions. All of this is going
behind the court record. All of these things were before the United
States court.
UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7207
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
Mr. Casey. Did you appeal that case?
Mr. Pelley. No'; because that was the crux of the situation in
Nortli Carolina, and that is the crux of the situation today, and it is
this: I wanted to appeal that decision and through a suggestion of
counsel, in confei-ence with Judge Warlick, the proposition was
made me that if I would pay a fine and accept a 5-year parole
sentence and not to ap])eal that case that would be the washing out
of that situation in North Carolina.
Mr. Casey. How much of a fine did you pay ?
Mr. Peli.ey. I paid $1,000 and $750 court costs.
Mr. Casey. You were following the advice of counsel in doing
that ?
jSIr. Pelt.ey. I may, but may I add this? In the next year,
gentlemen, that I had that material which was in question, I sold
$7,000 worth of it, which my attorney had bought from the trustees
as old waste paper for $11.
Mr. Dempsey. This may be very interesting, Mr. Chairman, but
I do not see what it has to do with what we are considering here.
Mr. Starnes. I do not either. Any other questions?
Mr. Casey. The Pelley Publishing Co. — is that a corporation?
Mr. Pelley. No. sir. It is a trade name.
Mr. Casey. And what publication does that issue ?
Mr. Pelley. At the present time that issues Liberation; Little
Visits, a monthly biographical magazine; and Realty magazine, a
metaphysical publication.
Mr. Thomas. Will you please give the years that your articles ap-
peared in Liberty magazine and the Woman's Home Companion?
Mr. Pelley. Tliev were two isolated cases of sales in 1933.
^Ir. Thomas. In i933?
Mr. Pellet. Yes. The material which I had left over at that
time, and I told him of these sales.
Mr. Thomas. Will you also tell the committee the details of the
four novels which j^ou wrote?
]Mr. Pelley. The Greater Glory, published by Little, Brown & Co.
in 1919; Tlie Four Guardsmen, published by the same house in 1921;
Drag, published by Little, Brown & Co. in 1924; Golden Rubbish,
])ub]ished by George P. Putnam & Sons in 1931 or 1932.
Mr. Thomas. Are those the only novels or books which yovi have
written ?
Mr. Pelley. Oh, decidedly not.
ISIr. Thomas. What are some of the other books which you have
published ?
!Mr. Pelley. My other books, which have been published by my
own concern, are No More Hunger, an economic book.
!Mr. Thomas. I am refernng now to books written by you.
Mr. Pelley. That is right. Tlie Door to Revolution, an auto-
])iography; Behold Life, a metnphysical volume: Being Alive, a
metaphysical volume — that is all I recall right now.
Mr. Starxes. Mr. Pelley, will you state your connection with the
Silver Legion?
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Starnes, I founded the Silver Legion in 1933,
contiguous with the appearance of the so-called New Deal of the
Democratic administration, at Asheville, N. C. ; to propagandize
7208 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
exactly the same principles that Mr. Dies and this committee are
engaged in prosecuting right now ; in other words, antagonism to
subversive influence in the United States.
Mr, Starnes. Who was associated with vou in the organization
of the legion?
Mr. Pelley. You mean the original incorporators?
Mr. Thomas. All right.
Mr. Pellet. The Silver Legion was not incorporated until Feb-
ruary of 1934. In the opening year of its existence it was a man
to man relationship between those who believed in the principles I
w^as expounding and myself. In 1934 we incorporated under the
laws of the State of Delaware, a fraternal, n()n})r()fitable, noncapital
corporation, myself controlling five votes — and I am speaking from
memory now — Harry F. Seiber, of New Wales, Pa., and a man by
the name of Lee Collie, who held two and one votes respectively.
Mr. Starnes. Upon what system of business were you organized?
What was the type of your organization ^
Mr. Pelley. The type of the oi-g;inization was a patriotic fra-
ternity, Mr. Starnes. Its purpose wjis to condemn by a dramatic
move and bring to the attention of tlie Ainerican people some of
the abuses that were going on behind the scenes that I wanted
publicized.
Mr. Starnes, How many gr()U])s do you have, or did you have,
throughout the countrj' in 1934?
Mr. Pelley, That is difficult to sa}' by memory, I can only ap-
proximate it for you,
Mr, Starnes. Give us the best you can. What we are trying to
get for the record is this: How were you organized? Did you have
a national organization with a board of directors, and State organi-
zations or district organizations; or how were you organized?
Mr, Pelley, At the start, there was a general staff in x^sheville,
N, C, composed of myself, Mr. Seiber, and Mr, Collie,
Mr. Starnes, W^hat were your titles — your officers?
Mr, Pelley. I do not think we had titles at that time.
Mr. Starnes. What were the offices which each of you held?
Mr, Pelley, Representing the president, secretary, and treasurer.
Mr. Starnes, You were the president and organizer?
Mr, Pelley, That is right.
Mr, Starnes. Who was your secretaly^ and who w^as your
treasurer ?
Mr, Pelley, Mr. Seiber was treasurer, and Mr. Collie was sec-
retary. .
Mr. Starnes. That was in the beginning. That was your general
staff,
Mr, Pelley, Yes,
Mr, Starnes. Did you have a joint board of directors?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Just you three?
INIr. Pelley. Under the constitution of the organization, that was
not necessary. Those three functioned as a joint staff.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have a copy of your original constitution
with you?
Mr. Pelley. No ; but I can get it for you.
IX-AMKIUCAX PUOPAOANDA ACTIVITIES 7209
Ml'. Staknks. Will you do that, iiiul insert it in the record as a
part of your testimony^
Mr. Pkllky. Yes; I will be deli<ihted.
Mr. Stakxes. Did you iiave State or<ianizations in 1934?
Mr. l*Ki.LEY. Yes; we did.
Mr. Staknks. How many States did you have organizations in?
Mr. I*KLLEY. I would say at least a dozen.
Mr. Staknes. By the way. Seiber, how does Seiber spell his name.
Mr. Pei-ley. I believe it is S-e-i-b-e-r,
Mr. Stahnes. And the other man was who?
]\Ir. Pelley. Mr. Collie; C-o-l-l-i-e.
Mr. Staknes. Can you name the States in which you had State
organizations in 19Mi
Mr. I^eeley. California. Organizations? Organizations is a bad
name to apply, because that would infer that I had a complete set-up
of officers functioning and an organization working. That did not
exist. We did have — I am trying to think for a moment, of the
title M'e gave those State connnanders. It will come to me perhaps
in a minute. I found that it was not w'orking out satisfactorily, for
this i-eason : We ran on that basis for about 6 months; then I dis-
covered there was a very dangerous element, subversive, that could
work in and subvert the whole thing, one man being in control of
the entire State. If he went sour, if I may use that Avord, it would
jeo))ardize hundreds of fine people that were sincerely interested in
promoting thes^c^ i)rinciples from a patriotic standi)oint. So I aban-
doned that entirely, and I made the Silver Legion a matter of per-
sonal relationship between these various groups in the various States,
which are approximately 22.
As I fully explained, ^Ir. Starnes, to your Federal Bureau of Inves-
tigation when they went into my affairs in May, in 22 States we had
these groups and between them and myself we had what I call liaison
officers, who weie ])urely messengers of mine. If I had any special
message, instruction, or work which we wanted done, they func-
ti(med in that capacity and that was practically all.
Mr. Staknes. You say the Federal Bureau of Investigation com-
pletely and thoroughly investigated you and your set-up in May?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Staknes. Of 1939?
Mr. Peeli:y. Of 1939. I entertained three sets of G-men on three
sepai-ate days in AsheA'ille, X. C. — INIr. Brown and Mr. Mitchell.
Ml-. Thomas. You did that ])ersonally, you mean?
Mr. Pelley. They came to me and asked for information regard-
ing my organization, and I received them hospitably and with the
utmost courtesy and I cooperated with them. We spent an entire
day, from 7 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock in the afternoon
at my office in Asheville. They asked me for anything I had to show
them, and I showed them everything in connection with my work,
with the sole exception of names of membership, which I considered
I should keep quiet.
Mr. Thomas. What was the date of that meeting?
Mr. Pelley. I wish I could give it to you accurately, but I cannot.
It was sometime in May.
Mr. Thomas. Last May?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir.
7210 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. And that was by the Department of Justice?
Mr. PelXiEY. The Department of Justice, and then Mr. Shite came
down, and also Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Brown, and spent a day with
me, and on a third occasion two other G-men came down there and I
showed them everything they wanted to see, and I supposed that was
in the hands of my Government when the Dies committee wanted to
see me.
Mr. Starnes. Did these people come for an investigation of you
and of the affairs of the Silver Shirt Legion ?
Mr, Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And did they inform you that that was the purpose
of their coming?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Was any indictment brought against you or any
members of the Silver Shirt Legion?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. On the contrary, it seems to me that th©
efforts of the F. B. I. more or less approved of w^iat I was doing.
Mr. Starnes. At that time, you had organizations in 22 States?
Mr. Pellet. I had groups in 22 States ; yes, Mr. Starnes.
Mr. Starnes. In 1934 you stated you had organizations in 12
States.
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Is that the year you were investigated by a congres-
sional committee, headed by Congressman McCormick of Massa-
chusetts ? j
Mr. Pellet. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. I believe you stated that was in the spring of 1934?
Mr. Pellet. April of 1934.
Mr. Starnes. Did they go into your organization and your affairs
and the affairs of your organization at that time and examine your
books?
Mr. Pellet. They not only examined them, but I am sorry to say
that they absolutely cleaned me out of anything I had, with the
exception of one portable typewriter. And, Mr. Starnes, the mate-
rial taken out of my office by Mr. Dickstein and his assistants turned
up in New Master and I can show you if you get the papers the
private remarks taken out of my file appear in the New Master
publication.
Mr. Starnes. Of course, the committee is not here to answer your
questions. The committee is not sitting here now, but you are "here
to answer the questions propounded by this committee.
Mr. Pellet, That is true.
Mr. Starnes. I want to get one thing clear for the record. Were
these men from the F. B. I. there investigating your income-tax
returns or your own affairs?
Mr. Pellet. They told me that they had been instructed from
Washington to get a complete picture of the work of the Silver
Legion and Pelley Publishers, which was desired at that time by the
Attorney General.
Mr. Starnes. How many members did you have, approximately,
in 1934? Do you recall?
Mr. Pellet. No ; I cannot give that to you accurately,
Mr. Starnes, Can you give us an approximatiton ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7211
Mr. Pelley. I would like to put it this way, for tlio record. Over
the j^a.st 7 years I believe that I have signed approximately 25,000
credentials authorizing men to call themselves Silver Shirts through-
out the country.
Mr. \'ooi{iiis. How many?
Mr. Pelley. Twenty-five thousand; but I have not kept a roster
of those men because that was not the way that we handled the
membership.
Mr. Stahxes. "Who was vour State commander in California in
10:U. Mr. Pellev ?
Mr. Pelley. In 1934 i
Mr. Starnes. That was the first year after you incorporated.
Mr. Pelley. A gentleman by the name of Waker Bethel.
Mr. Starnes. You had a State organization in California. Name
some of the other States, as best you can from your memory.
Mr. Pelley. Massachusetts and New York.
Mr. Starnes. Who was your leader in Massachusetts?
^Ir. Pelley. A young man by the name of Alvin, Watertown,
Mass.
Mr. Casey. What is his first name?
Mr. Pelley. It commences with A.
Mr. Casey. A. Alvin?
Mr. Pelley. That is the best I can recall right at the moment.
Mr. Starnes. In New York State, who was your leader?
]Mr. Pelley. May I submit a complete list instead of relying on
my memory?
Mr. Starnes. Yes. The committee will understand that you are
now testifying from your recollection only, and you may refresh
your recollection by the record and correct the record by submitting
a complete list which you will identify as a complete list.
]Slr. Pelley. Mr. Starnes, I cannot identify these men as State
leaders, and that would not be fair to them or to the organization.
Thev were spontaneous groups which sprang up as a result of the
publicity I was issuing at that time.
Mr. Starxes. What other States besides California, Massachusetts,
and New York did you have organizations in in 1934?
Mr. Pelley. Washington, Oregon, Illinois, I believe Michigan.
Mr. Starnes. All right. That is seven.
Mr. Pelley. Indiana.
Mr. Starnes. All right. That is 8 States out of the 12.
Mr. Pelley. Ohio and Pennsylvania.
Mr. Starnes. Ohio and Pennsylvania?
Mr. Pelley. New Jersey.
Mr. Starnes. New Jersey. That is 11.
Mr. Pelley. Nebraska.
Mr. Starnes. Nebraska?
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Starnes. Those are the 12 States you recall from memory?
You are testifying solely from your memory?
Mr. Pelley.' That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Can you give us the name of some of the outstand-
ing leaders or leader in the State of Illinois in the year 1934?
Mr. Pelley. No; I cannot do that. I would like to do so, but I
cannot do it. Understand me, I am not refusing to do so, but I
7212 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
will be delij^hted to investigate and furnish you with a corrected
list.
Mr, Starnes. You will for the record furnish us with a correct
list of the States in which you had organizations in 1934^
Mr. Pelley. I will furnish a list of States in which I had out-
standing groups of Silver Shirts. I cannot call them State organi-
zations.
Mr. Starnes. We won't quibble over the terminology, but you
understand what the committee wishes for this record '{
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. Thomas. And also the leaders.
Mr. Starnes. And give us some of the leaders.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Did you have any groups working with you or did
you have any people with sympathy with your organization who
contributed to your work?
Mr. Pellet. Not a single instance. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not you had what we term
in connnon parlance' "sympathizers," ])eople who were sympathetic to
your movement, and who contributed to it at that time?
Mr. Pellet. You mean organizations?
Mr. Starnes, No. I am speaking of individuals. Can you give
us an approximation of the number of individuals who might have
contributed money or support, either moral or financial, during this
period ?
Mr. Pellet. I would say that that list would run from GOO to 1,000
names.
Mr. Starnes. I see. Would you be willing to make an approxi-
mation for the committee of the number of sympathizers to your
movement, or who were working with your movement ?
Mr. Pellet. People who believed in what I believe in who have
expressed that belief and are not members? Is that what you
mean ?
Mr. Starnes. That is what I mean.
Mr. Pellet. I would add 75,000 to the 25,000 I have given cre-
dentials to.
Mr, Starnes. What dues were paid, initiation dues, by one who
became a member of the Silver Shirt Legion?
Mr. Pellet. When I first founded the legion, I suggested that
the members pay $10 yearly. Then I made the discovery within
a few months that had the aspect of a membership racket, and it
is of record in my publications that because of that unsavory desig-
nation, I did away with any charge whatsoever for membershij) in
the Silver Legion," with the'exception of $1 enrollment fee which it
would cost for sending out the material.
Mr. Starnes. What material was furnished a member?
Mr. PiiLLET. Certain booklets describing the aims, purposes, and
o-eneral trend of the organization and what was hoped to be ac-
complished.
INIr. Starnes. Who was the author of these publications ?
Mr. Pellet. Since 1933 — you mean all the authors?
]\Ir. Starnes. Yes.
]\Ir. Pellet. Mr, Thomas was in one instance.
1 x-a.mi:ki('a.\ i'Uoi'agaxda activities 7213
Afr. Staknts. Yon know wliat I inojin. Who Avere the authors
of these hookU'ts whicli you sent out?
Mr. I*Kij.KY. In other words. Mr. Chairinau, what I am driving
at — I am not trvin*; to he facetious in nientionino; Mr. Thomas'
name — hnt what T liad reference to was, when I referred to Mr.
Tliomas, was the impeachment of Mathim Perkins which I considered
a masterpiece.
Mr. SiAKNKs. "Were von assiste<l durinj; this period of time with
any other <:rouj) or rathei- associated witli any other jjjroup?
Mr. Pki.lky. ]Mr. Chairman. I have never been associated with
any other *ri'<>np at any time eitlier liere or abroad.
Mr. Staknf.s. Either yon oi- yonr council were investi<>ated by a
conirressional in\esti<iation committee in 1934: at which time you
Avere o|)eratina' in 1*2 States.
Mr. Pkllev. Yes. sir.
Mr. Staijnes. You weie oi)ei'atinfr throujrh a membership of spon-
taneous oi'onps in '2'2 States h>st year?
Mr. Pkm.ky. Yes. sir.
Mr. Starxks. And were you operating in the same 12 States in
Avliich yon operated in 1984?
Ml-. l^KLLKY. Yes. sir.
Mr. Stai{xp:s. The 10 additional States, can you now remember
from memory and give us some of those additional 10 States in which
you had sj)ontaneons groups in 19H9 when the F. B. I. investigated
yon and your organization (
Mr. l^ELLKY. I think so. That woidd be 10 more States?
Mr. Stahxes. Yes. You have informed us that you had organi-
zations in California. Oregon. Washington, Illinois, Michigan, In-
diana, Ohio. Pennsylvania. New Jersey, and Nebraska, as well as
New York and Massachusetts.
Mr. Peeley. All right. I had Florida.
Mr. Stakxes. All right.
Mr. Peij.ey. New Jersey.
Mr. Stakxes. You have already named New Jersey.
Mr. Peeley'. Did I name New Jersey?
Mr. Stakxes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pelley. I am trying to get a mental picture of the country.
You have not got a map of the United States? That would help
me a Avhole lot.
Mr. Stakxes. AVill yon give us those for the record?
Mr. Pelley. I should be delighted.
Mr. Stakxes. And will you also give the names of some of the
leaders in some of those States who have been active in carrying on
this program {
jVIr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Pelley just made some reference to me, and I
was not (|uite clear as to what that reference was. Would yon mind
if he stated what that reference was?
Air. Stakxes. Go right ahead.
Mr. Pelley. I say this, that I heartily endorse and approve of
your contril)ution to the Congressional Record, "The Impeachment
of Madam Perkins," which I attempted to hand f)Ul to about a
hundred thousand people in this Nation. That was a booklet which
has l)een sent out since you wrote that.
7214 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. And you also know that your organization received
a letter from me condemning you ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. In which I accused you of trying to make money ?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. We did not try to make any money out of
that.
Mr. Thomas. I may say that I have yet to admire any action of
yours.
Mr. Pellet. I am very sorry, because I think your work is splendid,
splendid.
Mr. Starnes. Did a man by the name of Fritz ever hold any posi-
tion with the Silver Shirt Legion in the State of Oregon?
Mr. Pellet. Fritz?
Mr. Starnes. Fritz or Fitts?
Mr. Pellet. Not that I know of.
Mr. Starnes. Or anybody whose given name was Fritz, who was a
leader out there ?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Did you ever have a man by the name of McDonald
associated with you in the Silver Shirts Legion in Oregon?
Mr. Pellet. Mr. McDonald, as I recall, last year— 1938 or 1939—
did some speaking apropos the Silver Legion work in the State, but
he held no official position that I had authenticated.
Mr. Starnes. Have you got any idea as to the approximate num-
ber of members which you have in the State of Oregon ?
Mr. Pellet. No. I cannot give it to you.
Mr. Starnes. From what State do you have the membership?
Mr. Pellet. I cannot give you that.
Mr. VooRHis. How many do you have in Calif oiTiia?
Mr. Pellet. I would say, Mr. Voorhis, three or four thousand.
Mr. Voorhis. Who is the leader of the Legion in California?
Mr. Pellet. The leader up until recently — there is none right at
this moment — has been Mr. Carneal Alexander.
Mr. Voorhis. And he is no longer the leader ?
Mr. Pellet. You see, I have not had what you call State leaders,
Mr. Voorhis, not that I am trying to indulge in any subterfuge.
Mr. Alexander has been the man that I would designate as my liaison
man in California.
Mr. Caset. How many members have you in your Legion in the
State of Massachusetts?
Mr, Pellet. Not as many as I wish I had.
Mr. Thomas. How many have you in good old New Jersey?
Mr. Pellet. I wish I could answer you, Mr. Thomas, because
you are asking me to take things out of the air, and I have not
the record before me in order to find out.
Mr. Starnes. How much money, approximately what, would you
say your national annual income was from the national Silver
Legion during the time it has been in operation? From that one
source alone, from membership dues or contributions which have
been made — and I ask you, have individual contributions been made?
Mr. Pellet. They have.
Mr. Starnes. By the members?
Mr. Pellet. Not altogether.
Mr. Starnes. Then there have been others who have contributed?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7215
Ml'. Pellet. Ri<rht.
Mr. Starne8. Can you give us the approximate amount that
has been contributed to the organization for its support by the mem-
bers and outsiders interested?
Mr. Pelley. No, I cannot. I would be delighted to give you a
transcri])t of the report to the Federal Revenue.
Mr. Starnes. Would you incorporate that as a portion of your
testimony?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Or. if it is too long or too bulky, would you incor-
porate it as an exhibit, as a part of your testimony ?
;Mr. Pellet. Yes.
^Ir. Starnes. Were any proceedings directed against you or the
members of your organization as a result of the congressional investi-
gation in 1934?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. VooKiiis. Tlie contributions which were made were entirely un-
der your control?
Mr. Pfxlet. That is right.
Mr. YooRHis. Completely ?
]Mr. Pellet. That is right. That is in the constitution. In fact,
most of these contributions have been more or less a personal gift to
me and so stated.
Mr. Casey. You haA'e a constitution of your organization?
iNIr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Caset. And do you set forth therein the purposes of the Silver
Shirts?
]Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Caset. AVhat is the purpose as expressed in the constitution
of your organization?
Mv. Pellet. I have got a transcript of that, which is a paragraph^
and if you will allow me to read it
Mr. Caset. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, do you have any public documents avail-
able which will state the aims and purposes which you sent out?
]\rr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Can yon supply them and make them a part of your
tesimony ?
^Ir. Pellet. Yes. sir.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. VooRHis. You said awhile ago that in 1933 that because of the
New Deal, started then, you commenced this, and I would like to
read from your book here where it says :
So the remaining months of 1932 were lived. Roosevelt had been elected.
Money was growing tighter, still it did not affect us as it affected others. So
long as people liad money, ours was tlie sort of material that they most desired
to read. The first item in Mrs. Leslie's prophecy had come true about the
"nation-wide spiritual movement" . . . the second had materialized that "in two
years or thereal>out you'll find yourself sitting with the heads of government
lehind the government in Washington" . . . but the third item, that "in three
years or thereabout you'll find yourself at the head of a quasi-military order
pledged to protect Christian Constitutionalism when it hangs by a thread"
was still in th(> future. What could it encompass? Would the implied Great
Pyramid date of January 31. 1933, give me indication? We wea-e watching that
date. The Pyramid had never failed.
94931— 40— vol. 12 2
7216 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIP^S
It so happened that I was working? late one nisht in my offlt-e at the east enrt
of the main college building when Marion Henderson, my secretary, came in with
the Asheville evening paper. I saw eight-colunm headlines. Curiously I picked
it up. The date was January 30, 1933. And screauung from the page were the
significant words —
ADOLF HIT].F:R BEX'OMES GEl'.MAN (HANCEI.iOIi
I looked at the lines. I read them again. I souglit to comprehend them.
Something clicked in niy brain! . . .
I laid the paper down. The prophecy heard thai iiij/lil in the .l.Ird l^fnct pat
before rjohuj up to Mrs. Leslie' a, irns ir.orkitvj!
"Tomorrow," I announced, "we have the Silvershirls 1"
Anderson scowled. Marion was puzzled. One of them demanded. "What
<lo you mean, Silvershirts?"
"Let me alone tonight!" I begged. "Tomorrow you'll know everything!"
Mr. Pelley. Will the committee ])leuse lienr me for a moment?
You have read from somethintr that makes reference to a ])rop]iesy
by Mrs. Scott. I think tliat we are enterino- into matei'ial which I
don't think is particularly pertinent to this committee, but I state
later that on a certain date this thino; would mature.
Mr. VooRHis. What thing?
Mr. Pellet. The proo;ram of the Silvei- Legion, and that it would
hap})en continuous with the innovation of a man known as Hitler in
Germany.
That fully explains it. You are only reading part of it. If you
read the whole thing, you will see that. That conveys the wrong
impressi()n. If you will read the whole thing, the whole reference,
you will get the whole ])icture of what is meant there, and you will
find that there is no particular hook-up with Mr. Hitler in any
personal way.
Mr. VooRHis. But this is a quotation here which is attributed to
you, in which you say that you have been one of Herr Hitler's de-
fenders among your own people from the first, and that you think
the thing to do is to let the spontaneous American movement be born
here on similar principles to those attributed to Hitler, which shall
be American in character and personnel?
Mr. Pellet. "Wliat do you have there?
Mr. VooRHis. This is just a thing that I copied from the McCom-
mack hearings.
Mr. Pellet. I never appeared before any McCormack liearing at
any time.
Mr. VooRHis. This is attributed to you. It is supposed to be in
correspondence between yourself and friends of the new Germany.
Mr. Pellet. I don't recall any correspondence of that kind, unless
I can see the letter.
^Tr. Gaset. Was Herr Hitler an inspiration to you?
Mr. Pellet. My dear Mr. Casey, I was writing about this whole
problem that has since developed into the Silver Legion before Mr.
Hitler was heard of.
Mr. Casey. Was that an inspiration to you ?
Mr. Pellet. "Wliat do you mean, "inspiration"? I had made a
thorough examination of the Versailles Treaty, and I thought that
Mr. Hitler had done an excellent job in Germany for the Germans.
Now, I did discover this: When I started the Silver Legion we had
no hook-ups with Mr. Hitler, with Germany, or any other foreign
UN-A.MKiaCAN I'UOl'ACiANDA ACTIVITIES 7217
power. I had an otiVr luadf iiu'. w liitli eaine in over tlie United States
mails, to put ir).(H)() (Jernians in the Silvm- Leoion at $10 a head, by
Col. Kdwin Kniei-son. acrompanied by an invitation to ])rocee(l to
New Yoi-k and debate the racial question with Samuel Untei-myer
in (^irne<>ie Hall.
Mr. Casey. Where was Colonel Emerson?
Mr. Vr.u.KX. Colonel Emerson wrote nie that letter from New York
City.
Mr. Casey. Did you know anything about him?
Mr. Pei.ley. I knew plenty about him.
Mr. C\\sEY. Who was he ^
Mr. Pem.ey. Eirst, I turned the whole proposal down. Then I
went, up to see my friend, Mr. Sharp
Mr. Casey. Who was Colonel Emers(m'^
Mr. Pellky. I am answering; you.
I went up to see my friend, Mr. Sharp, whom I knew personally.
He at that time held the office of vice president of the New Jersey
Telephone & Tele«>raph Co. 1 asked him who Mr. Emerson was
that he should do this thino-.
And I have here a dossier which Mr. Sharp gave me at that time,
which I think I can produce to this committee, but I am not sure.
The information which I accepted as coming through our State De-
partment channels was that he had been a courier of a sort between
the Bolsheviks of (jermany in Berlin prior to Mr. Hitler's advent
and Moscow and Russian bolshevism. And I didn't care to have
jinything to do with that stripe of individual.
Now, if you wish that dossier. I Avill try to get it for you.
But it wouldn't have made any ditierence. I wrote several men
at that time, and there was some correspondence — let me augment
it with this — there was some corresi)ondence in the early part of 1933
Avith some young (lermans that had an office up in the Whitehall
Building in New York City.
When they learned of this material in this dossier from Colonel
Emerson they asked me to come u}) there to see them. I went up
there at my own expense and met them and told them what I knew,
told them that they were getting on dangerous ground, as I con-
sidered it: and there the matter began and ended; and I have never
had any relations with their organization since.
Mr. Thomas. You read a transcript from your constitution which
approximates what you did. Did you determine upon that at the
time of making that constitution?
Mr. Pelley. It has been there. I think, ever since 1933.
Mr. Thomas. You haven't changed it any since 1933?
Mr. Pelley. No.
Mr. Tiio.AiAs. You haven't amended it any since then?
Mi-. PiLLEY. No, sir.
Mr. Casey. Is it directed against the Jews?
Mr. Pelley. No, Mr. Casey; it is not. I am too intelligent to do
that. I liope. That has been the construction that has been placed
on that phrase — subversive activites of the Ignited States, as I see it.
Mr. VcoHiiis. In that connection, in the issue of Liberation for
Octobei' 14, 193H. wasn't there a suggestion in there that all the
7218 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Jewish people should be put into one city in each State, and that
if necessary sterilization could be resorted to?
Mr. Pellet. If you care to go into the Jewish question, you are
going to be here a long time. I wouldn't like to start on that.
Mr. VooKHis. I am asking you whether that appeared in that paper
at that time or not.
Mr. Pelley. There is a situation developing in the United States
that we cannot ignore, and that is my personal solution for some-
thing that we have all got to face before we get through — before
many years longer in the United States, I think.
Xow, that is a matter of opinion and recommendation which under
the Constitution I consider that I have a right to propagate as much
as you have.
Mr. VooRHis. You think that a whole race of people should be
treated in that way ?
Mr. Pelley. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
What is particularly wrong with a group living unto themselves and
not running into the clash and friction that we are developing in
this Nation at a tragic rate ? AVhat is wrong with that ? Dicln't our
Pilgrim Fathers do the same thing in New England? They are only
keeping by themselves, and this is their own religion in life and their
own ideals.
Mr. VooRHis. As you know, and I need not tell this committee, I
thoroughly agree that we need a greater unity among our people and
d great deal less breaking down of that unity by means of teaching
people to hate one another.
Mr. Pelley. I am not teaching people to hate one another.
ISIr. VooRHis. Wouldn't you call a suggestion to sterilize a whole
race that ?
Mr. Pelley. In other words, Mr. Voorhis, we are approaching a
situation in the United States now where we cannot help noticing a
growing anti-Semitism.
I don't hold any hatred toward any Jew in the United States. But
our people over this Nation, my dear Mr. Voorhis, are discussing this
question ; and it is rising under the surface at a volcanic rate.
Mr. Voorhis. Let me ask you another question. I have here a
little pamphlet which is called What Manner of Government Is the
Christ to Set Up? I read here something that I believe that you
wrote : "A great census is presently to be precipitated in the ranks
of this Nation." And then you speak of the "predatory priestcraft."
Now, what do you mean by "predatory priestcraft"?
Mr. Pelley. Mr, Voorhis, I have here a book with 82 attestments
by leading spokesmen of the Jewish people in the United States that
say they are out to subvert our American Government through what
I call the predatory priestcraft.
Mr. Voorhis. What do you mean by putting the Protestants in
here? Do you have reference to the Catholic faith?
Mr. Pelley. I do not. I would say that 50 percent of my member-
ship are prime young Catholics.
Mr. Voorhis. Then you don't have any reference to the Catholic
religion in there?
Mr. Pelley. I certainly do not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7219
]Sfr. VooRHis. Have yon ever attacked it in yonr pnblication?
Mr. Pelley. I have not.
Mr. A^ooRHis. Have yon ever attacked Christian Science?
]Mr. Pellet. I have not. What do you mean by "attacked it"?
]Mr. VooRHis. I believe you are mistaken. I believe that in issues
of Liberation they carried attacks on both of those.
Mr. Pellet. Maybe there is a misunderstanding between us. "\Aniat
do you mean by an attack? Do you mean that I disapprove of the
principles of that particular denomination?
Mr. VooRHLS. xVU rioht. Put it that wav?
Mr. Pellet. My dear ]SIr. Voorhis, if there was any designation
which could be put down to my own personal religious beliefs, it
would be Christian Science.
INIr. VooRiiis. There never was any material in Liberation at all
which is an attack on that church?
Mr. Pellet. Not as an attack on the church and on the funda-
mentals of the belief.
Mr. Caset. You say j'ou bear no ill-will toward any Jew in the
country?
Mr. Pellet. I do not. Mr. Casey.
Mr. Caset. You would not regard sterilization of the Jews as a
display of love and affection, would you?
Mr. Pellet. I don't believe Mr. Voorhis read that correctly. I
think if you read that again, you will find that what was reported
there was that I said that there are people and groups in this Nation
who are discussing it, and therefore I made the recommendation
which he read to you gentlemen.
Mr. Caset. But you stand by the recommendation?
Mr. Pellet. Let me get what you mean. Stand by which recom-
mendation?
Mr. Caset. You said that you made the recommendation which he
read.
Mr. Pellet. No. I said that people in this country — I made the
recommendation on the segregation as an alternative.
Mr. Caset. But }tou don't go along with it ?
Mr. Pellet. I do not, and I can bring copies of the publication in
which I disapprove of the atrocious idea of sterilization as it has been
published in the last 3 months.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Pelley, I have here several issues of Liberation
each of which contains certain rather violent attacks on the Dies
committee. One pamphlet here is devoted vei^ largely to that. I
would like to know
Mr. Starxes. I am going to rule that question improper.
Mr. Voorhis. I haven't even finished the question.
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Chairman, may I say one word?
Mr. Starnes. I would hate very much to believe or to think that
an attack on the members of this committee
Mr. Voorhis. If somebody attacks this committee-
Mr. Starnes. Are you a member of this committee?
Mr. Voorhis. It is not what I am ■
Mr. Starnes. If any people disagree with the work of this com-
mittee and do not approve of it, it is quite proper and quite American
for them to attack it.
7220 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. VooRHis. I can make it very plain — —
Mr. Thomas. I think he ought to be allowed to finish his question.
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. VooKHis. My question was this: Mr. Pelley, as you have a.
perfect right to do', you have in this publication very publicly criti-
cized the committee ; but you say today that you heartily approve of
it. I am wondering what changed your mind.
Mr. Pelley. One of the things is meeting the committee face to
face and learning that they are a fine group of Christian gentlemen.
I have had — and I confess it publicly, to go into the record —
within the past 6 weeks a total change of heart toward the work of
the Dies committee; and I apologize publicly to each one of you
gentlemen and to Mr. Dies, who is not present, for anything up to
the present time that has not been entirely pleasant or anything that
I have said of a critical nature.
Mr. Thomas. I wouldn't come to a conclusion, Mr. Pelley, until we
are through.
Mr. Starxes. I think frankly that those questions are improper
and should be ruled out.
Mr. Pelley. Don't rule out the a})ology.
Mr. Starnes. I think they are facetious, and that it does not make
any difference for the I'ecord whether or not this witness or anybody
else likes or dislikes this committee.
Frankly, as one member of the committee, I don't care what his
personal opinion about it is or of any other witness that comesbefore
the committee. And I havel told every witness that I am not
interested in their likes or dislikes. What I am interested in is
whether or not this witness has in fact and in truth been connected
with any un-American and subversive activities; and I respectfully
request the membeis of the committee to address their questions
along that line.
Mr, Thomas. I'hat is right.
Mr. VooRiiis. AVas it that changed attitude toward the committee
that led you to come in here to testify '(
Mr. Pelley. It was, sir.
Mr. VcoRHis. When they could not find you before?
Mr. Pelley. It was, sii".
Mr. Starnes. Now, prior to the time I was interrupted a moment
ago by some questions which some of the other gentlemen of the
committee wanted to jjropound to you, I was asking you to give us
some approximation of the amount of money which you received
annually from your members and from outside sources, to give us an
appi-oximation. I believe you said that you would submit your in-
come-tax return. But can you give us at this time here some idea of
the amount of money that you receive ?
Mr. Pelley. No; I cannot, Mr. Chairman. I Avould if I could, but
I cannot.
Mr. Starnes. But you will produce your records for the committee?
Mr. Pelley. I will. I will be delighted.
Mr. Starnes. Are you in a position to bring them to us tomorrow,
at a session that is to be held tomorrow?
Mr. Pelley. It is pretty short notice. I could do it in 48 hours.
I
UN-A.MKKICAN I'KorAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7221
Mr. Starnes. All rioht.
Mr. Pki.i.ky. Let iiu' (lualify that, Mr. Sturnes. The reason for
that is this:
Due to the unfortunate reeoniniendations that were made in rej^ard
to nie by Mr. Barkley and the Income Tax Bureau, the Bureau of
Fe(UM:irKeveiuie has possession of all my books at the present time.
1 have had a day of very friendly conference with them. They have
found my income tax, as they understand it, approximately correct
as turned in to the Federal Government.
The books beino- in their hands, 1 have got to check and find out
or <rt't it from people who are more conversant witli it than I am.
I could call over the telephone tonight and find out from my Ashe-
ville office and have a ie})ort over the telephone from someone at Ashe-
ville heie overnight. But 1 have nothing to hide in any way, shape,
or niannei- regarding it.
Might I i)ut this in the record, too, Mr. Sltarnes, if it is not
irrele\aut : Of the !f200.()()() whicli I am accredited witli having re-
ceived over a })eriod of 8 years. I would say that not over 40 percent
of that has liad anything to do Avith the Silver Legion or political or
economic work or any esoteric publication. It had nothing to do with
the Jewish question or my patriotic belief.
^Ir. Masox. Mr. Pelley, vou have now given us an approximation
of it, because 40 percent of $200,000 is $80,000; and that over a period
of 8 years would be an average of $10,000.
Mr. Pelley. That is right; and I don't think that that is far off,
Mr. Mason.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Pellev, do yon honestly believe that the Presi-
dent personally appropriated the funds collected in the infantile
paralysis drives? I think that that was a very scnrrilons thing to
say about anybody.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Voorhis, I cannot see that that line of questions
is pertinent. I think yon are going too far afield.
5lr. Voorhis. It seems to me that
Mr. Starnes. There may be a lot of things that all of us as indi-
viduals might thing Avere scnrrilons that certainly would not come
within the scope of a congressional investigation of what are un-
American and subversive activities.
I do hope that you gentlemen will please confine your questions to
that, and I shall ask this witness, and insist that he confine his an-
swers and make them responsive to the relevant questions concerning-
un-American and subversive activities.
It seems to me that we have reached a point where it may be
necessary to interrogate this witness at length concerning financial
transactions of the Silver League and its affiliates, if it has any
affiliates. We have the assurance that we will probably have the
assistance of the investigator in that connection in the morning.
In further view of the fact that it will be necessary for him to get
in touch with the Bureau of Internal Revenue, either here in Wash-
ington or through the Asheville office, to obtain certain data for
presentation in order to answer the questions propounded to him, I
am going to suggest at this time that we adjourn, to meet tentatively
in the morning at 10 : 30.
Mr. Thomas. Before getting to the question of adjournment, Mr.
Pelley mentioned that the F. B. I. had made an investigation of his
7222 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
organization as late as May of 1939. We slionld certainly know
what the result of that investigation was; and I personally cannot
understand why the Department of Justice has not given us the facts
as they found them. And I suggest that the clerk of the committee
write the Department of Justice and ask for a report.
Mr. Starnes. That is a matter that we will take up in executive
session.
Now, Mr. Pelley, you are under subpena from the committee and
will return to the committee tomorrow morning at the hour set and
at any hour set until you are told not to return. You will return
tomorrow morning at 10 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 3:50 p. m., an adjournment was taken until the
next day, Thursday, February 8, 1940, at 10: 30 a. m.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN PEOPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1940
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to I^'^•ESTIGATE Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10:30 a. m.
Present: Mr. Starnes (acting chairman), Mr. Dempsey, Mr. Voor-
his, Mr. Casey, Mr. Mason, and Mr. Thomas.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM DUDLEY PELLEY— Resumed
Mr. Starnes. The committee will come to order. At the time vre
adjourned yesterday the Chair had ruled as improper a question
asked by our very able, conscientious, lovable colleague from Cali-
fornia, Mr. Voorhis, concerning an alleged statement or publication
by the witness to the effect that the President of the United States
had converted funds raised by the Infantile Paralysis Campaign in
this country to his own personal use, or words to that effect. The
Chair ruled the question to be improper.
T-lie Chair did not mean to be arbitrar}^ in its manner or in its
ruling; but the committee has been criticized by some of its own
members, including the gentleman who propounded the question, for
the procedure of the committee in permitting witnesses to use this
committee as a background for issuing statements or making declara-
tions about Government officials that were derogatory and defamatory
in their scope, extent, and character, and probably were not respon-
sive to the questions. The Chair felt that the question on its face
was a personal matter, and for that reason instructed the witness not
to reply thereto, because the Chair felt that if the witness replied
thereto, it would give the witness an opportunity to say something
of a personal nature against the President of the United States. That
was the reason that the Chair ruled as it did.
The Chair further states that he knows nothing of the alleofed
statement, and does not believe that any such statement is true if it
was made, and would not countenance such a statement being made
before the committee. In fact, that was the reason the Chair ruled
that the question was not proper and instructed the witness not to
reply thereto.
Now, we will resume the examination of the witness.
Mr. Pelley, you have been sworn previously ; so it is not necessary
to swear you again.
I wish to ask you some questions concerning the Silver Shirt move-
ment.
7223
7224 UN-AMERICAx"^ PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Did you have, a form of application that was used by those who
desired to become members of the Legion?
Mr. Pellet. I did, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. I hand you here what purports to be an application
blank to be signed by one who desires to become a member of the
Silver Shirt Legion.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Can you identify that as being one of the blanks?
Mr. Pellet. I identify that as one of the very early ones, probably
the first one.
Mr. Starnes. We will incorporate that in the record at this point
in full.
(The paper referred to is as follows:)
Silver Shibt Enrollment Application
confidential infoemation
(Please use ink and fill out in longhand)
Date , 1933.
General Staff.
Silver i^hirts' of America, A.shcriUc. V. C.
I HEREBY malve application for enrollment as a Silver Shirt of America in the
Post of the city state of and submit the follovping
Confidential Data concerning m.v fitness for admittance :
Full baptized name
Please print
Married name (If a woman)
Please print
Present address
Street City State
CONFIDENTIAL DATA
Place of Birth
Date of Birth Exact Hour and Minute
M.v Racial Extraction
I was cliristened in following Faith
Father's Name
Father's Birthplace
Mother's Maiden Name in Fall
Mother's Birthplace
Maiden Name of Present Wife
Full Baptized Name of Husband (if a woman)
Children sons ; daughters
My Scliooling
M.v Family Physician's Name and Address is
Profession, Trade or Vocation
Lodge Affiliations
My last Employer
Address
Previous Politics
€oIor of Hair Color of E.ves
Weight Height
Physical Disabilities, if any
Military Experience, if any
My average Normal Income from Profession or Trade $
I have banked in following Bank
I own following Real Estate at present
REFERENCES FOR RESPONSIBILITY
Name
Address
IN-AMKUK'AN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7225
Nil me
Address
Xame
Address
I'ruposcd and Endorsed by .
IMPORTANT — Enclose Photograph or Snapshot of Yourself.
I have submitted the above in full realization of the issues that are facing my
nation, having .seriously studied the knowledge offered by Liberation and the
Silver Legion, and the principles of the Chri.st, Whom I serve in the pi'esent
world crisis.
Signed
Mr. St.arnks. I notice that you ask for certain confidential data
iiere. Yon ask for tlie racial extraction of the proposed enrollee.
Mr. Pelley. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. Was your membership limited to any particular race
or racial extraction?
Mr. Pelley. My membership at that time, according to the stipula-
tions of the constitution and the by-laws, was strictly a Christian
organization. Thereby by elimination it would have the censorship of
people Of the Judaistic faith. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. AVas there any restriction on the person who desired
to become a member so far as his place of birth was concerned ?
Mr. Pelley. He must be either an American native or naturalized.
^Ir. St.arnes. I notice that you want to know here the exact hour
and minute and date of birth. Was there any particular reason for
a question of that type and character?
5lr. Pelley. Not from the political and economic standpoint. That
is more or less of a metaphysical question.
Mr. Starnes. It is a metaphysical question?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Were you concerned with the question of your mem-
laership's politics?
Mr. Pelley. Xot necessarily. I wanted to know their American-
ism : not their politics.
Mr. Starnes. I notice that you ask here, "Give previous politics."
Mr. Pelley. There is no special significance to that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, did you ever have any type of military
organization in connection with the Silver Shirt Legion?
Mr. Pelley. Military in the sense of arms?
^Ir. Starnes. Xo.
Mr. Pelley. Or military in the sense of an identifying uniform?
Mr. Starnes. Both or either.
Mr. Pelley. We had a military, I will use the word, set-uj>, insofar
as the regalia was concerned; but no arms have ever been connected
with the organization, Mr. Congressman.
Mr. Starnes. But you did have a military set-up in that you had
a commander-in-chief, a chief of staff, and State commanders in the
original inception of the movement?
]Mr. Pelley. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. Did you give any type of military instruction to
the memljership? Did you ever give any type of military instruction
or training?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
7226 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. I notice on© question that you ask in this enrolhnent
blank is "military experience, if any." What was the purpose of
that?
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Chairman, when the Silver Legion was organized
we had a totally different condition in the United States than we are
enjoying now in 1940. At the beginning of the Silver Legion's work
all of the things that the Dies committee has succeeded in uncover-
ing as to subversive activities in this country were known to the
heads and the founders of the Silver Legion movement.
We saw this menace, which we could get no congressional commit-
tee at tliat time to take any cognizance of whatever ; and therefore I
ask the indulgence of the connnittee in this respect — that we were
looking at a condition where there might be a complete overthrow of
orderly constitutional government in the United States; and under
our assumed constitutional prerogative we were preparing for that
only. Nowhere do I know of any intention or specific statement that
we liad any designs on the present form of government of the United
States.
Mr. Starnes. Did you have an organization in Washington, D. C,
in the beginning, or at any time since the inception of your move-
ment ?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; I don't recall that we did.
Mr. Starnes. You stated on yesterday that at the present time you
had organizations in 22 States, and they were spontaneous in a way.
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. aS'tarnes. In that they just sprang up in the various States.
Mr. Pelley. People w(ould get hold of the literature and become
interested and specify a desire to form a unit.
Mr. Starnes. Did you require an oath of enlistment on the part of
your Silver Shirt Legion?
Mr. Pelley. We did at the very beginning. And then it was tak-
ing the status of a secret organization, and we had no real design to
fallow that type of procedure. We had nothing to conceal particu-
larly. Anybody could qualify who subscribed to our fundamental
principles.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have a copy of that oath with you ? Or can
you make a copy available for the committee ?
Mr. PlELLEY. I should be delighted. But that was abandoned in
1934 or 1935, and has never been used since.
Mr. VooRHis. Could you repeat the oath?
Mr. Pelley. No; I could not.
Mr. VooRHis. You don't remember it?
Mr. Pelley. It is approximately a subscription to the sentiments
that I read to you gentlemen yesterday in regard to the material on
the charter.
INIr. Starnes. Then at its inception, and certainly during the early
period of its organization, if not down to the present time, you had
a military concept insofar as the organization was concerned, the
actual physical set-up of your organization? Is that correct?
Mr. Pelley. That is correct. Aimed at, as I say, an emphasis on
the possibility of a ver^^^ serious communistic inroad into our present
form of goverimient.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know Mr. Robert C. Summerville?
Mr. Pelley. I do.
IX-A.MEUIC'AX Pli01'AGANL>A ACTIVITIES 7227
jNIr. Starxes. AVlio is IVfi-. KolxM't C. Sumniervillo?
Mv. Pki.lky. He is a youiiir niaii who joined my office force in 1931
in New York City, and remained as manaoing editor of one of my
l)iiblications nntil about 1936, since which time he has not been
jissociarcnl Avith me.
Mr. Starxes, Since 1936 ?
Mr. Pelu-:y. Right.
Mr. Starxes. He is a Xew Yorker, I understand you to say?
^Ir. Pkllet. He joined my force in Ncav York. I believe he came
originally from Chicago.
]NIr. Starxes. Was he a member of your organization in November
1933?
Mr. Pfxley. November 1933? Y'es.
Mr. Starxes. In what capacity was he acting at that time in the
national headquarters?
Mr. Pellet. Associate editor of the publication Liberation ; and he
also handled a certain amount of the correspondence that came in
apropos of the Legion's work, I can't recall if he had any official
title or what it was. However, I could refresh my memory on that
perhaps at another session.
^Ir. Starx'es. Y^ou would be familiar with his handwriting? You
could identifv his handwriting?
Mr. Pellet. I could.
Mr. Starxes. I hand you herewith a letter under date of Novem-
ber 1-4, 1933, from Asheville, N. C, W'hich is signed "Cordially yours,
National Headquarters, Robert C. Summerville" ; and I ask you to
look at that ancl see if you can identify his signature.
Mr. Pellet. That is correct.
Mr. Starxes. All right.
Now, there is an excerpt or a quotation that I want to insert in
the record and ask you a question with reference thereto. It is con-
tained in this letter. We will insert the entire letter in the record.
(The paper referred to reads as folloAvs:)
The first essential is for you to become a member of the Silver Legion, and
to this end I have enclosed a pink slip and Enrollment Application. When these
are returned, together with a small photo of yourself, you will be entitled to
step into the more private knowledge which incurs the responsibility of serious
action on your part. You will then also receive your Certificate of Membership
and National Number.
For the past few years we have been engaged in a nationwide research into
all the agencies and elements responsible for the present debauchery of our
Christian institutions, as well as our national economic situation. Because of
the appalling facts which this research has uncovered, particularly the activi-
ties of the International group to overthrow our government, we are now active
in the promotion of a growing Christian militia which holds every prospect of
taking the national situation by the horns and performing a serious setback to
the activities of these predatory forces.
We can give .vou no better outline of our entirely constructive program than
to send you an is.sue of the liberation Weekly, our national organ, together
with the enclosed. All members of the Silver Legion receive the Liberation
Weekly, in order to be fully informed of the Silver Shirt activity and progress.
We eagerly await your reaction to this material, and stand ready to give you
further details, together with a strong cooperation in your territory. The time
is coming when those of us who have a sterling patriotism that can be neither
debauched, intimidated, nor subverted, must stand shoulder to shoulder to
preserve a nation that was once American.
Awaiting your further pleasure in the matter and trusting you will carry on
to becoming a Silver Shirt, I am
7228 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. We will take one excerpt from this letter now.
We are now active in the promotion of a growing Christian militia which
holds every prospect of taking the national situation by the horns and perform-
ing a serions setback to the activities of these predatory forces.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What explanation have you to make concerning a
statement of this type and character?
Mr. Pelley. The predatory forces are the exact interests, sub-
versive and otherwise, that I just identified.
But, Mr. Chairman, may I state this very strongly : When I dis-
covered— and I am not attempting to whitewash myself on it — when
I discovered the inefficiency and misinterpretation that was growing
out of ]\Ir. Summerville's letters as to what we were trying to do,
that was the reason why we parted company.
Mr. Summerville, with all due respect to the young man — he is
only about 25 years of age — I discovered had written many letters
around the country of which I did not appi'ove and wliich caused me
considerable grief and heartburn. That is not an alibi of any letters
that he might have written while he was in my employ. But I cannot
subscribe to all of the things which he put in which I did not know
were going out.
Mr. Starnes. Can you subscribe to this statement, "We are now-
active in the promotion of a growing Christian militia which holds
every prospect of taking the national situation by the horns and per-
forming a serious setback to the activities of these predatory forces"?
Mr. Pelley. The predatory forces that Robert was talking about
there was the event of a communistic revolution.
Now, that particular word "militia" sounds very menacing, but it
is a common militaiy term describing a group of men that come
together aggressively to uphold any princijDle.
Mr. Starnes. What did you mean in usnig the term "Christian
militia"? Does not that appear in some of your later publications
and later statements?
Mr. Pelley. I would define that as a group of young men who were
patriotically inclined to defend their country, who were Christian by
religious faith strictly.
Mr. Starnes. How do you define "militia"?
Mr. Pelley. I define "militia" as a group of young men who may
eventually have to bear arms in a military manner, not necessarily
doing it in such a situation as we are discussing now.
In other words — and I am not trying to alibi the nature of the
concern at its inception — I am saying that an organization like tlui
Silver Legion, with a 7-year growth, sliould be judged, in my humble
opinion, by what it has done, not by what one lone young man may
write in correspondence with a distant city.
We have not aggressively attempted any activity of a type which
might be called a military menace to the United States in the militia
form or any other form; and I submit the record of the concern over
7 years. We have had no military drilling. We have had n.o giuis
or ammunition that I am aware of.
Mr. Starnes. You can see, Mr. Pelley, the clear im))lication of his
actual declaration here that the organization, I mean, that the vSilver
Shirt Legion was interested in setting up a form of militia.
UN-AMKUICAN I'KUl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7229
Mr. Pellet. I can, Mr. Chairniaii ; and I disapprove of it ; and Mr.
Suniniorvillo is no lonixcM- in my em])loy, and I would not countonan.co
propa<randa >i"oin^- out tliat we were interested in overthrowing; or
jeopardizing; — nienacinji; is the word
Mr. Thom.vs. Mr. Pelley is niakino- statements, and I think he
should he confined to answerin<x tlie (juestion; not to <;o on and make
statements.
Mr. Pelley. I am tryin*; very hard to answer.
^Ir. Starnes. Make your reply as respcmsive as yon can.
^Ij-. Pellet. I will do so.
Mr. Staknes. You kept this young man, however, in your employ
for a period of 3 years'^
yir. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And almost 3 years after that letter was written,
since it was written in November 1938 ?
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Chairman, does that require an answer?
Mr. Starxes. That is your answer, that you did do it.
Mr. Pellet. I did do it; yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Xow. when you sent out instructions to your mem-
bership throuizhout the country, Mr. Pelley, you sent them out in the
form of official dispatches — is that correct — from the national head-
quarters?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
INIr. Starxes. I have here what purports to be Official Dispatch
Xo. 1 from the Silver Legion Headquarters in Asheville, X. C. Will
3'ou examine that and see if that is authentic, that you sent this out
to the membership of the legion throughout the country ?
Mr. Pellet. You merely want me to identify this as one of our
documents?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. That is quite lengthy, and we will introduce that as
an exhibit to tlie witness' testimony.
(The document referred to, entitled "Official Dispatch No. 1," is
attached as an exhibit hereto.)
Silver Legion Headquarters.
Aahcville, N. C.
Ofiicial Dispatch No. 1:
It is essential for yon to know what we are fighting for, what wo propose
to accomplish, and sonit'thing of liow we propose to accomplish it. The hroad-
suli's of cxi)ose material which we have fired throughout this nation have forced
the public malefactors to take uote of us and rumblings are coming to our
attention of aggressive activit.v taken against us which may show upon the
surface at any time. Having discovered to their own amazement how easy it Is,
under the hysteria of a national emergency, to set aside our Constitutional
riglits in the matter of owning gold on which oiir whole currency system has
been founded .since the days of Alexander Hamilton, and to set up the instru-
mentality for a Soviet Dictatorship right here in America in the guise of the
N-It-A, it may not be much longer before they arrogantly abrogate our Consti-
tutional rights of a free press and free speech and say that no institution or
no individual shall have the i)rivilege of uttering any criticism against them, or
discuss publicly what they are doing to make their alien autocracy complete.
If, as, and when this happens, it must be a point of honor with you to take
it as a signal for a galvanism of activity in your particular locality. You must
then carry on promotion of the work by word of mouth, considering yourself a
little distributing point of inforuKition and peaceful agitation, rnfortunately,
so low has the public morale sunken in tliis country, that thus must we free-
7230 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
men fight individnally for our Constitutional riglits against a group of aliens,
thousands of whom have no right in this country at all, under our immigration
laws, but who have so seciirely entrenched themselves in official positions that
any public remonstrance against them is ignored, suppressed, or subverted for
their own purposes.
As you have been advised. The Silver Legion of America is a Christian
Militia, only soliciting for its fighting ranks those men and women of Christian
faith and American citizenship whose paramount ideal is not only to restore
inviolate our republican form of institutions politically — understand, I do not
mean the Republican party — but see that they are administered strictly by
people of their own faith and ideals. That is our first tenet.
We declare to the nation that we stand for the absolute and impeccable
integrity of the United States of America and its representative form of
government envisioned and projected by the Continental Fathers, and for the
Constitution of the United States in its moral and economic essence. There
can be, and will be, no deviation from this affirmation at any time, and may
our detractors so note. We are the unalterable foes of the Russian-Jeioish
form of Communistic government, against which Adolph Hitler is mailing such
a gritty and successful stand at the present time. We waste no symimthy
for those who are complaining of being "persecuted" for we have secret knowl-
edge that they are whining at treatment which they meted out to the German
Fatherland without let or hindrance since long before the war, until they
had brought Germany almost down to ruin. The same elements are doing
the same thing here in America under cover, only with this difference from
Germany, that our people have yet to find it out and recognize its grim
reality as the chief motivating factor behind a continuance of the Depression.
The Silver Legion proposes to obtain their objectives, primarily by political
means, peacefully, lawfully, and without violence. Nevertheless they do not
constitute a strictly political organization. They enlist under the Libera-
tion Banner the great moral force that is Christianity in its essence,
to see that the principles of The Christ are carried out equitably and prac-
tically in every avenue of everyday life. They will not stand for the country
being dominated and conducted by an alien people whose ideas and ethics
are not our ideas and ethics, and who openly sneer at our Christ of the
Immaculate Conception as "Christ the Bastard." This is our country, founded
by our forefathers, who gave their blood and lives to hand us a political
and cultural heritage that is our obligation to keep unsullied. We propose
to keep it unsullied. But how?
The biggest obstruction which we have to clean, orderly, and wholesome
Representative Government, which we confront in America today, is the pi'es-
ence in the social body of a voracious and unrestrained Money-Power, chiefly
directed by outstanding leaders of this predatory and non-social people among
us, whom we know, by translation of their own documents in their own press,
are set on bending all social, political, and economic institutions to the
world enhancement of their own people, declaring "that they will yet have us
serfs on our own land within a generation."
We have no quarrel with any individual member of this element. No racial
prejudices enter into our program. But we view with clear eyes the effective
permeating of agents of this element into our free government, our political
offices, our fiscal and currency system, our patriotic organizations, and even
into our religious denominations, despoiling and subverting deliberately and
maliciously, their avowed intention being to emasculate any opposition that
tends to effectively circumscribe them in their megalomaniacal objectives.
Temporary success seems to have crowned their subtle maneuverings, but no
good purpose is served by detailing specific depredations. We have no desire
to unnecessarily inflame the public passions or start reprisals of violence.
We do recognize, however, that specific leaders and agents have obtained an
unhallowed control over certain public offices of colossal influence in our
government, either by appointment or election in their own persons, or by
various forms of duress over representatives of other faiths and bloods,
such duress not always recognized for that which it is. Enticements to poli-
tical advantage, money loans of a quite harmless nature which later prove
embarrassing to pay back, the support of influential journals in their behalf
through money loans or advertising patronage, or invitations to participate
in quite legitimate but heavily profitable undertakings, have placed hundreds
of our finest public men in positions wiiere they find themselves morally
obligated to accede to requests, pi-opositions, or demands, tending to fasten
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7231
the tontades of this alien Money Octopus with ever increasing tenacity ami
rapacity on our institutions of social control and debauch their essential
integrity.
"We Silver Shirts have had a Mentorship, the nature of which need not enter
into its practical instructions, that has shown us a way by which this preda-
tory power can be smashed and destroyed by one clean-cut thrust into its
black heart. The recommendation we have been giving is neither radical nor
visionary. It is the Great Foundation Stone on which all American political
institutions as conceived by the Continental Fathers are supposed to rest. We
make it Plank One of our Militant Platform of public service for a finer public
probity. We phrase it in this manner : —
We declare that the democracy as projected in America between the years
1770 and 1789 had as its essence the light of a free people TO GOVERN THEM-
SELVES. But we Silver Shirts stand unalterably and irrevocably for a true
and eftVctive interpretation of tliat inalienable right, of which our Constitution
says so much. We maintain that at the present time it exists as a nominal
right only, and because it is only a nominal right and not actually in effect,
R-e have the spectacle and indignity of a voracious and uncontrolled Money-
Bund able to exercise an unhallowed influence over the people's representa-
tives.
We would not make any radical change in our political institutions. We
would not abolish a single ofllce in the government of the American people
as set up by the Continental Fathers. But we say, wath a thunderous voice
and a flashing eye, that the functionaries in all those offices shall not only
derive their power froni the elective vote of the i)eople but shall, at all times,
be subject to the elective approval of the people.
We approve of no NOMINAL democracy which declares that the populace
sliall merely have the dubious privilege of naming and dethroning as many
little legislative autocracies as there may be legislators in the 48 American
States.
We say that the hour by hour legislative enactments of such legislators
shall in nowise become law In any instance until those whom those legislators
affect to represent shall have put their majority stamp of approval on that
which has been enacted as law for them to obey and respect.
Such a measure means that the form of government instigated by the Con-
tinental Fathers then becomes a living reality, and not a farcical election in every
campaign of a great kingly biu-eaucracy secure against any reprisals for that
which they do, until the succeeding election.
We maintain that a system should be instigated at once in administrative
affairs imiversally, that is now in effect partially in the State of Vermont.
It is the law that at the close of each legislative session in Vermont, there
shall be sent to the public printer a complete transcript of all legislation which
has passed both houses of that State during the session. The entire circiUa-
tion figures of all the daily and weekly newspapers in Vermont is then com-
piled, and when such compendium of new legislation is completed in the printed
booklet form, one copy is dispatched to every subscriber or reader of a news-
paper in the State.
Tliis is done in Vermont, despite the expense, to make certain that the people
are acquainted with all the decrees and enactments which have become new laws
in the commonwealth during that ses.sion.
We Silver Shirts maintain that if the small State of Vermont can so effectively
compile, print, and distribute to every newspaper reader in the State, a com-
plete compendium of its new legislation, that all States in the Union, as well as
the Federal Government, can supply each voter at least monthly with a terse,
understandable DIGEST of each and every bill that is brought up to be made
into law by either State or National assemblies.
We maintain that the digest of such bills .shall have spaces left thereunder
for the expression of an aye or nay vote by John Smith, citizen, who is to be
called vipon to circumscribe himself by such laws and enactments. He shall
read the Compendium and so register his approval or disapproval of such legis-
lation. He shall then mail such Compendium under a free government frank
to the properly appointed officer in the State or Federal Government, with whom
his signature is on file by right of his being a voting citizen. If there is not a
51 i»ercent vote of approval for such legislation from the given quota of voters
to whom the legislation is to apply, it shall iiot become law, nor be considered
as law, and the citizen is under no obligation to abide by it or pay any atten-
tion whatsoever to it.
94931— 40— vol. 12 3
7232 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
We maintain that only by sucli constant direct Referendum to the People,
can the people keep a control on their republican institutions, preserve truly
representative government, and exercise a wholesome influence over those they
elect to originate and debate such legislation.
We maintain that 75 percent of the legislation which is enacted, either by
City Councils, State assemblies, or the Federal Congress, from session to session,
presents in some form or other the economic interest of private groups, or indi-
viduals, who by connivance with fallible representatives or party leaders, legiti-
mate or illegitimate, have worked to get such legislation made law, that the
whole people may become subservient to their desires or interests in some form
or other.
We maintain that more than half the troubles with which the general public
is afflicted at the present time, come from unwise, unhallowed, unmoral, or
partisan enactments against which the public has no redress until after mischief
has been perpetrated on them ; and even then they must wait two to four years
to dethrone those who have so distressed them.
If a specific Representative or Senator knew in advance that any bill which
he might bring into a governmental assembly was required to receive a majority
endorsement from those who elected him, his psychology might become so
altered that for the first time in American history he would think of the i-eac-
tion of his bill on the public IN FACT instead of in theory. The public on the
other hand, would become the real makers of law. And why not, since they are
those who must obey such law?
True it is, that public enemies in the presence of voracious and rapacious
members of an alien money-bund are in unquestioned, control of most of the
organs and instruments of public opinion that are of any infiuence worth men-
tioning, but in hundreds of instances the expense and trouble of thus deliberately
creating a supporting public opinion would be so great as to act as a whole-
some deterrent on the general trend of autocratic legislation.
For the first time in American history, too, lawmakers would have to come
before the public and explain their pet legislative schemes so that the general
public can grasp them, not "slip over" scheme after scheme and appropriation
after appropriation, by merely treating with a handful of very human and
cidpable men.
If the people of a free democracy have not the right to pass on the nature
and utility of their own laws, or cannot be trusted to understand and pass
JTidgment on their own laws, then their democracy is a farce AND THEY HAVE
NO DEMOCRACY. They are living under a bureaucratic oligarchy, and the
sooner we face the fact, the better.
A freeman who has not the riglit and privilege of saying which laws he shall
live under and obey, by a majority vote of himself and his fellows, is a political
serf. Electing those who originate and debate legislation is not enough. If a
citizen is qualified to vote for a man to make laws for him, or to propose laws
under the Direct Referendum, he is quite capable of approving or disapproving
of the laws which that representative creates, and whose fiats he must conform
to, in his private affairs.
If it is argued that such a practice would hinder and deter the quick passage
of legislation, we answer thunderously that we have to live under such laws
for long periods of time. A little delay enforced in the making of laws will
result in few laws and better laws, and laws which will be better obeyed because
citizens in the majority have approved of them. It will furthermore begin to
awaken the citizen to the fact that he actually has a voice in his government,
not the mere "privilege" of going to the polls every two or four years and
designating which of two rascals shall frequently connive with the lobbyists of
the Money-Bund to lord it over him or subject him to various forms of confisca-
tion or s])oilation.
We, Silver Shirts, have t)ther remedies that ARE remedies for the prevailing
public distemper. We have been given a complete agenda of the new Democracy
truly based on the Principles of Christ, which is available for every citizen who
desires to know what form of metanK>r])hosed institutions are going to rear
themselves on the debris of all this present venery and economic distress. This
short despatch is not the place to discuss them. We present to you herewith a
new policy in democracy that is the very antithesis of anything socialistic or
communistic, and that will be devastating in its control of the present unre-
strained Money Powers.
We are organizing by State Encampments, 4S of them, with Posts in every
community where a majority of the Christian people are sickened of all this uii-
UN-AxMEKlCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7233
hallowed and extended rape of our hujhest ideals and the debauchery of our
excellent democratic form of represoiitalive government. These I'osls admit
men and women on equal footinj;. At iNational lk'ad(iuarters there is a General
Staff comprising live ollicers : The Chief, The Chamberiain, The Quartermaster,
the Slieriff, and the Censor. Over each State there is a Commander, an Ad-
jutant, a Purser, a Baililf, and a Solicitor. Over each Post there is a Chaplain,
a Scribe, an Almoner, a Marshal, and an Advocate. The men members of tliese
Po-sts are unifornu-d in shirts of a beautiful Silver-Gray with a large brilliant
•"L"' worked in red silk on the left breast. The uniformed trousers are corduroy
knickers of blue with puttees or long socks. On the blue fore-in-hand tie is
woven or pinned the Silver-Shirt's national number. Tliere are no two similar
numbers in the entire nation.
These ai'e but cursory details of sometliiug wliich lias been worked out in
the most minute form, with one of the most beautiful Consecration Services
that is conducted by any Christian organization in America. This great
Christ kin Militia, nation-aide in its ramifications, means to suddenly become
an active, dynamic, viyilante organisutiun that sliall not only take definite
measures against the present lawless and predatory elements ramiDaut through-
out (uir debauched and distressed country today, but put in political othce
men from its own ranks, pledged to its own principles, who shall carry out a
startling iimovation in the furtherance of our American Democracy.
There is an entirely sound and feasible plan afoot for the Incorporation of
THK United States of America into a Collossus Corporation in which the
present government officers shall be the officials but where every citizen shall
become thereafter both a Common and a Preferred Stockholder, entitled to
botli the privileges and dividends of corjioration stockholders, and putting pro-
duction t)n tlie basis of consumption througliout the whole nation, and distribut-
ing its increment as a vast business concern according to its citizens' holding.^
of its securities.
That plan is too big and dynamic to describe liere. But the Silver Shirts are
not theorists. They have an entirely new principle in republican government
that will lift the United States out of this stalemate within twenty-four hours
from going into effect. 3Iuch of what they advocate and are working for, will
write new American history. But the public has been clamoring for relief
and leadership.
In the Silver Shirts the country has got leadership — leadership that knows
what the depredations of the predatory element are, how to fight and end them,
how to coop and restrain them permanently from any repetition of such
diablerie as they have inflicted on this nation up to the present.
It costs only $10 to become a Silver Shirt. If you are one of those whom
national conditions have stripped down to your last penny and you still want
to fight for the principles activating the Silver Legion, write to National Head-
quarters for a Plan whereby the very real cost of furnishing literature to you
may be covered. Further details are contained in The Silver Shirt manual,
which, however, is not sent to mere curiosity seekers. Prospective Posts are
designated as Rallies imtil they have been consecrated by the Consecration
Services. Then both staff and members are informed definitely just what
work needs to be done, how to set about doing it, and how to begin setting
up a slate f>f political officers in all the 48 States for a new order of things
here in America.
This is OUR country, founded in certain inalienable rights, and consecrated
to the p(>rpetuation of definite Christian ideals and customs of living. We pro-
ix>se without further ado. without equivocation, without any silly sentimen-
tality sometimes known as Tolerance, to emasculate the debauchers within the
social body :'ih1 reestablish America on a basis whore this spoliation can never
again be repeated.
It can be done, and we know how to do it. Proof that we know what we
ar(> talking about lies in the fact that the public spoliators consider it neces-
sary to utter death threats against the Chief of The Silver Shirts if he per-
sists in his activities. Headquarters is already being subjected to threats,
intimidations, and other forms of duress. This would not be happening
unless we were doing a work, or had "gotten hold of something" which other
org.miz.-itions in America have not.
This is not "anotlier organization." We hold no bancpiets. We waste small
time in speech making. A multitude of people throughout America are re-
ceiving and absorbing information on the Public Spoilers weekly through
Silver Shirt agencies. The number is growing wherever there is distress but
7234 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
no leadership, only promises, delay, procrastination, and makesliift expedient
that get nowhere.
The Silver Legion comes to Christian citizens who want ACTION and says:
"Wie will give it to you, pressed down and overflowing. We leaders are risking
our lives to write a new page in American history. We do not propose to see
America made the rag-bag and wastebasket for an element that Hitler is con-
trolling in Germany, to have it transfer its predatory tactics wholesale over
here into the United States, run our institutions high, wide, and handsome,
and dictate to us what we as Anglo-Saxon freemen and native sons shall do,
with an economic club over us if we refuse."
If you are 18 years of age, of reasonably sound health, and not afraid to
risk vour life and limb for your country, you are asked to take the Oath of
Consecration upon you, and step out as a TRUE CHRISTIAN SOLDIER,
garbed in a shirt of Silver, with the great scarlet "L" emblazoned on your
Banner and over your heart, standing for Love, Loyalty, and Liberation.
If you are a weakling, or given to compromise, sentimenetality, docile acqui-
escence, to intimidation, and nonentity in general, you are not wanted in this
organization, v.^hich knows where it is going, and exactly what it proposes to
accomplish. No Money-Bund currency is supporting this fight iiiff Christian
Militia. Its funds come from its members only. IMost of them are assuring
themselves of every scrap of information about Silver Shirt activities by
sending in $10 to the Silver Shirt War Chest, which enables them to use the
Enrollment Application and if approved to enter into Post activity.
We are marching with the times ! Our Battle Hymn is "Onward, Christian
Soldiers." Ake You With UsV Will You Aid in Helping to Actualize the
Tkue Democracy of Jesus the Christ, Right Here in These Toetureu United
States ?
Mr. Starnes. I notice in this first dispatch the following:
As you have been advised, the Silver Legion of America is a Christian
militia.
That is a correct statement of what the organization was at that
time?
Mr. Pelley. That is the form of terminology that we employed at
that time. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. I again qnote from this Official Dispatch No. 1 :
We are the unalterable foes of the Russian- Jewish form of communistic
government, against which Adolph Hitler is making such a gritty and success-
ful stand at the present time.
That was an official expression on the part of the organization at
that time ? This is yonr Official Dispatch No. 1 ?
Mr. Pelley. I would assume so. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. I note here and I quote:
We waste no sympathy for those who are complaining of being persecuted,
for we have secret knowledge that they are whining at treatment which they
meted out to the German Fatherland without lot or hindrance since long before
the war, until they had brought Germany almost down to ruin.
Just what significance did "German Fatherland" have to you ?
Mr. Pelley. No significance whatever, Mr. Chairman. Merely an
identification. At least, no significance as it applied to our principles,
of the organization or personally.
Mr. Starnes. Did it have any significance, any connection at that
time between your organization and the National Socialist Party?
Mr. Pelley. It did not, sir, and never has had since.
Mr. Starnes. I quote from this same Official Dispatch No. 1 :
We are organizing by state encampments.
Then I quote further :
These posts admit men and women on equal footing. At National Head-
quarters there is a general staff comprising five officers: The Chief, The
UX-AMEraCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7235
riianiborlain. The Quartermaster. The SlieritT. and The Censor. Over each
state there is a Commander, an Adjntant, a Purser, a Bailiff, and a Solicitor.
Over each post there is a Chaplain, a Scribe, an Almoner, a Marshal, and an
Advocate.
That, of course, is a corroboration of your oral testimony to the
etTect tlutt in its inception your organization was organized along
military lines, and you used military terminology in desif^nating
certain of the officers, and that you also used ndlitary tactics, we
will say, or usages in sending out information and instructions to
your posts, and membershi]) throughout the country?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir. Qualified by this statement : That all of it
was abandoned in 1934. It has not been practiced since.
Mv. Starxes. I am particularly intrigued by this word here "the
Censor" in the general staff. Why was it necessary to have a censor?
"Wliat were the duties of the censor in your national organization ?
Mr. Pellet. Xo such office ever — I am at a disadvantage, Mr.
Chairman, because I have not the full book of the manual here, which
I would like to put in your hands.
Have you read the whole thing? I wonder if you have a copy
of that, or if it is available — the original manual.
■Sir. Starnes. Will you furnish the committee one?
]SIr. Pellet. I should be delighted. And I should like to go into
this same matter in executive session, if possible.
Mr. Starxes. We will give you every opportunity at a later session
to make a statement concerning that.
Mr. Pellet. All right.
Mr. Starnes. I quote further from your Official Dispatch No. 1 :
This great Christian militia, nation-wide in its ramifications, means to sud-
denly become an active, dynamic, vigilante organization that shall not only
take definite measures against the present lawless and predatory elements
rampant throughout our debauched and distressed country today, but put in
political otiice men from its own ranks, pledged to its own principles, who shall
carry out a startling' innovation in the furttierance of our American democracy.
Now, what do you mean, that this organization was to become a
suddenly active and dynamic and vigilante organization on a Nation-
wide basis? Just what are the implications contained in that state-
ment ?
Mr. Pellet. The implications are, in the first place, that the prin-
ciples of the Silver Legion, if endorsed by a 51 percent support of
the American people, I would consider to be American in essence.
Mr. Starnes. But you did not put that explanatory note in this
dispatch, did you, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pellet. Perhaps not, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. You merely stated that it was a great Christian
militia with Nation-wide ramifications, which means to, in other
words, it was its intent, to become a suddenly active, dynamic, and
vigilante organization.
Mr. Pellet. Very good. You are questioning now my motive?
You are discussing motives?
Mr. Starnes. I want an explanation of this statement.
Mr. Pellet. I am trying to give you an intelligent answer. You
are discussing motive, why I did it?
Mr. Starnes. No. I want to know the ramifications of that state-
ment. Just what did you mean ? Yes. We will put it that wa}'.
7236 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
What did you mean, that it was going to be an organization of that
type?
Mr. Pellet. I meant if we got enough people throughout the
United States to subscribe to what we were promulgating, naturally —
I don't know if I can answer this — we would not endorse, Mr. Chair-
man, people who were for political office whose views were contrary
to our own.
That is an inverse way of answering your question ; but I am trying
to show that we laid down certain Christian principles of what we
would like ; and we attempted to convert people in a fair, open, above-
board, American way by our literature and our subscriptions. They
could take it or leave it.
Mr. Starnes. Now, I would like you to comment on another quota-
tion from this Official Dispatch No. 1. [Reading:]
The Silver Legion comes to Christian citizens who want action
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. "Action" is italicized, "and says: 'We will give
it' " — and here you quote in your dispatch —
We will give it to you, pressed down and overflowins- We leaders are risking
our lives to write a new page in American history. We do not propose to see
America made the rag-bag and wastebasket for an element that Hitler is cou-
troling in Germany.
What is your comment on that?
Mr. Pellet. Isn't that exactly what the Dies committee is doing?
I don't mean to ask a question. Pardon me. I will retract that. I
don't mean that. I don't mean to ask a question of you, Mr. Chair-
man.
I mean that at that time that was our rather ebullient method of
presenting to a prospective support exactly the same principles that
the Dies committee later took up in 1938, when we were attempting
to call that to the attention of the American people, and when it had
become so great that it was taken cognizance of by Congress.
Mr. Starnes. I will say to you that the Dies committee is not
advocating anything. The Dies committee is an investigating body.
I shall ask 3'ou to bear that in mind. It is not an advocating group,
but an investigating group.
Mr. Pellet. Pardon me.
Mr. Starnes. For the further information of the witness, if he
does not already know — the public knows generally — this group
could not and would not all advocate the same course of action. So
it is very improper on the part of the witness to intimate that this
committee is advocating anything or taking up any specific program.
We are an investigating body and an investigating body only.
Mr. Pellet. Pardon me, sir.
Mr. Starnes. What was Hitler doing in Germany at that time
that you approved of?
Mr. Pellet. He was putting down the communistic element, the
subversive elements generally.
Mr. Starnes. Was that all he was doing at that time ?
Mr. Pellet. I assume so.
Mr. Starnes. Was it confined to any particular group or race?
Mr. Pellet. What do you mean — was it confined ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7237
Mr. Starnes. Was it directed toward any particular class or group
or race or any particular group of people of racial extraction?
]\Ir. PixLEY. Yes, sir.
jMr. Starnes. You were advocating that and did advocate that as
a course of action, Mr. Pelley, for the United States?
Mr. Peujst. Let nie get you straight. Would you please clarify
just what you are asking me? I clon't understand what you are
asking.
Mr. Starnes. You purport here to quote with approval the action,
in fact you have spoken approvingly in your first official dispatch,
of the work of Hitler.
Mr. Pelley. Eight.
IVIr. Starxes. And his manner of controlling Germany.
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Starxes. Now, my question is. Do you approve or did you at
that time approve of the methods used by Hitler; and was it your
purpose and the purpose of your organization and its supporters to
foster a program similar to that which Mr. Hitler has used, making
your program applicable, of course, to the United States?
Mr. Pelley. You mean in his totalitarian, economic, and political
set-up, or his attitude toward Jewry?
Mr. Starnes. Both.
Mr. Pelley. I have never advocated a totalitarian government for
the United States. I feel exactly as the Nazi Party in Germany
felt in regard to Germany, regarding the Jewish element in our
population; yes, sir.
I do not necessarily countenance and endorse the methods which
Mr. Hitler may have put in vogue, because I have not had any rela-
tions with him and don't know them in detail; only by hearsay.
Mr. Thomas. Was not Hitler himself subversive?
Mr. Pelley. We have to define what "subversive" means.
Mr. Starnes. Let me ask the gentleman in the interest of orderly
procedure to please address the Chair if he wants to ask a question
of the witness.
Mr. Thomas. I was just asking
Mr. Starnes. Do you wish to ask for information ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. Thomas. As I understood you, Mr, Pelley, a few moments
ago you mentioned the fact that Hitler was trying to control the
subversive influences in Germany?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. That was what you said. Now, I will ask you, was
not Hitler himself subversive in his own actions ?
Mr. Pelley. You are asking for my opinion in the matter?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Peixey. I cannot see how Mr. Hitler would be subversive when
he was put into his office by the lawful, legal president of Germany.
Mr. Thomas. That is all
Mr. VooRHis. May I ask a question?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Pelley, wonld you carry out that same philos-
ophy with regard to all countries;^ that is, that any group whicK
7238 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
was by the terms of the constitution and entirely under the con-
stitution, which was placed in a position of authority and respon-
sibility, that that would be the group that you would look to as the
logical and rightful head of that government? Not a political party.
I mean in the United States, for example.
Mr. Pellet. I don't understand the first part of your question.
Mr. VooRHis. In answering Mr. Thomas' question you said that
you could not see how Hitler could possibly be subversive, because
he got his position through the action of the duly elected President
of Germany.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. I want to know whether you would carry through
consistently that same attitude toward any political group in any
nation which attained to its position of responsibility and office in
that government by the constitutional methods of that nation.
Mr. Pellet. I still cannot understand. I am trying to answer the
question, Mr. Voorhis. I am trying to get it answered. Is it
whether I would advocate for any nation the same thing, the same
methods, that Mr. Hitler used in getting into office ? Is that your
question ?
Mr. Voorhis. Not what you would defend; no, sir. You testified
that he got into office by a legal act of the President. You said that
that was a constitutional act on his part.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. It seems to me that there are other governments,
notably our own at the present time, which were placed there by
constitutional activity on the part of the people.
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Voorhis. I wondered whether you had the same attitude to-
ward it as you have toward Hitler.
Mr. Pellet. If I understand your question correctly, Mr. Voorhis,
my answer is "No."
Mr. Voorhis. You would not?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. And I think I proved that for over 7 years
in my activities and in the nature of what I have put out since.
Mr. Dempset. Mr. Pelley, you said you would pursue the same
course here with respect to the Jewish people that Hitler pursued
in Germany.
Mr. Pellet. Have you finished the question?
Mr. Dempset. That is your testimony. That is what you said.
Mr. Pellet. No. Let us not have a misunderstanding between us.
I am not saying that I endorse all the tactics that Mr. Hitler used.
Mr. Dempset. No. But you did say that insofar as his attitude
toward the Jewish people is concernecl you approved of it.
Mr. Pellet. In the sense that there must be an ultimate control
of some sort of what they are doing.
Mr. Dempset. Why should the Jewish people be specially selected
for this control, in your opinion?
Mr. Pellet. May I enter into the books of this committee all of
my data to that effect, as to why I believe that?
Mr. Dempset. As a race?
Mr. Pellet. As a race.
Mr. Dempset. I think you can answer that very briefly. Wliy
should you select one particular race of people ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7239
Mr, Pelley. Because I find, Mr. Dempsey, in *ioino; into this
whole communistic question that it leads right straight down to — if
you will take just the origin of communism — it was started by Mr.
Marx, whose real name was Mordecai, and if you will read over the
correspondence in speaking of comnnmism, you will find that it all
leads
Mr. Dempsey. Isn't it still true that an extremely small percentage
of the Jewish people are Communists? That is the testimony before
this committee.
]\Ir. 1*ELLEY. What do you call — I am asking for information — •
what do you call an extremely small percentage? We have state-
ments from some Jewish j^eople that they are 98 percent Com-
munists.
Mr. Dempsey. AYe have statements that not 1 percent probably in
this country are Communists. We haven't any idea about how many
"were in Germany, but we certainly know as to the Communists in
this country that peo])le from all races are members.
]\Ir. Pelley. That is true.
i\Ir. Dempsey. It is not confined to the Jewish people. Yet you
w^ould pursue the same tactics against the Jews in this country that
Hitler did in Germany.
Mr. Pelley. I would not follow all that Mr. Hitler did, and I
don't want that to be my testimony.
Mr. Dempsey. You said you would as far as the Jewish people
were concerned.
Mr. Pelley. I would attempt to effect a humane control of the
influences that are in control of the Jewish policy.
]\Ir. Dempsey. Why do you not control the offenders rather than
the innocent ? That is what you are suggesting doing.
Mr. Pelley. I would not
]Mr. Dempsey. You take any race, and because a very small per-
cent may be offensive to von. vou would control the entire race, as
Hitler did?
Mr. Pelley. I know. But when we get into it, we find that the
control is higher up. In the last 7 years I found out that
Mr. Starnes. The gentleman from Massachusetts.
Mr. Casey. Do you think that the Nazi Party in Germany is anti-
Semitic?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. I would say they were.
Mr. Casey. You have testified here a few moments ago, have you
not, that you feel exactly as the Nazi Party in Germany feels toward
the Jewish element ? You can answer that yes or no.
Mr. Pelley, Yes; I do. But may I qualify that ?
Mr. Casey. Not at this moment. Are you anti-Semitic?
Mr. Peli_£y. I would call myself very much so, Mr. Casey,
Mr. Casey. You said yesterday in answer to a question that I
propounded to you, you said that you were not.
^Ir. Pelley. I said that I have no animus against the individual
Jew. I have very great animus against the tactics of Jewry as a
whole. That would make me anti-Semitic.
Mr. Casey. You do now say freely that you are anti-Semitic?
Mr. Pelley. I do say freely that I am anti-Semitic.
Mr. Starxes. Mr. Pelley, I hand you herewith a booklet purport-
ing to be published by the Pelley Publishers, Box 2630, Asheville,
7240 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
N. C, entitled "The Hidden Empire." Examine that booklet and
identify it for us.
Mr. Pellet. Yes. I identify that booklet.
Mr. Starnes. You wrote the booklet?
Mr. Pellet. No. I didn't write the booklet.
Mr. Starnes. Was it published under your direction?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. It is only one of the compilations which has
grown over a period of time among the writers. That is all that
that is.
Mr. Starnes. By the Pelley writers?
Mr. Pellet. No. Not necessarily.
Mr. Starnes. What I want to find out is^
Mr. Pellet. The original authorship?
Mr. Starnes. I want to get the editor of that book. Who was
the editor of that book?
Mr. Pellet. This particular book, Mr. Chairman, had a very
peculiar genesis.
Mr. Starnes. Can you answer my question?
Mr. Pellet. Can I tell you this briefly ?
Mr. Starnes. Yes. But first can't you tell me who the editor of
that book is?
Mr. Pellet. No. I don't know who it is.
Mr. Starnes. It was put out by your concern ?
Mr. Pei^let. It was put out by my concern. It originally — the
material in it — the editing of it seems to have been done in, I think
it was, Lincoln, Nebr.
Mr. Starnes. In Lincoln, Nebr. ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes. As a result of a very bitter interchurch con-
troversy that maintained in Lincoln back in 1933 — in 1934.
To that from time to time was added other data which upon
investigation seemed to stack up as being true.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know any of the parties out in Nebraska
who might have had some part in the compilation of the material
in that book or in the censoring of it ?
Mr. Pellet. No. I think it was two Christian clergymen out
there; two Protestant clergymen.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know who they are?
Mr. Pellet. No. I cannot say right offhand, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Thomas. Was one of them Mr. Charles B. Hudson?
Mr. Pellet. Not that I recalL
Mr. Starnes. Did your organization put that book out as one of
its textbooks of material
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes, That the members should read
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And should inform themselves upon?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Did your organization approve in whole or upon
the principles that were set forth in this document?
Mr. Pellet. Naturally. Yes.
Mr, Starnes. We will attach this document as an exhibit to the
witness' testimony.
UN-AMKiiKAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7241
I will ask you about this particular quotation :
SiuUleuly, when we in the United States had recovered from the celebration
of tlie Armistice, we discovered that approximately fonr million Jews had
infiltrated into the United States during our war-years. No lighting in the
front line trenches of any country for thcni.
"Them" is in italics.
Moreover, most of these four million Jews held political and economic ideas
similar to those of the syphilitic Jew, Lenin, of Bolshevik Russia.
Now, do you mean to state that your organization was in possession
of information, or that you are, that 4,000.000 Jews had infiltrated
into the United States during 1917 and 1918 ^
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Chairman, I have here the actual figures com-
piled by Jewish organizations themselves, wliich show that they had
entered 10 times what you have got there. I submit this as evidence.
Mr. VooRHis. Forty million?
Mr. Starnes. Forty million Jews came in during those 2 years?
Mr. Pelley. AVhat did you say? I beg your pardon.
Mr. Starnes, You said that you had evidence compiled by leaders
of the Jews in this country which shows that 10 times that number
came in in those 2 years.
]Mr. Pelley. There are the actual figures, Mr. Chairman. Jews in
the United States in 1927, 4,228,029. Jewish population in the
United States in 1937, 10 years later, 12,046,648. Eight million
increase.
Mr. Starnes. But your statement that I was trying to get some
light upon. ]Mr. Pelley, was that you understood that 4,000,000 Jews
had infiltrated into the United States during our war years, that is,
during 1917 and 1918.
Mr. Pelley. That was of record by Jewish testimony itself. I am
sorry. I would like to put my hands on it, but I haven't it here.
Mr. Starnes. As I understand it, you have quoted here an author-
ity to the effect that there were only 4,000,000 Jews in the entire
countrv in 1927.
Mr. Pelley. 4,228,029. ,
Mr. Starnes. Now, may I
Mr. Pelley. Those are the exact figures. Those others are merely
approximate figures.
Mr. Starnes. Is the committee to understand that you and the
members of your organization have information to the effect that
most of the 4,000.000 Jews which you are alleging came in here
during the war years have political, that they hold political and
economic ideas similar to those of Lenin, in other words, communism?
Mr. Pelley. Unfortunately, that has been my experience in con-
tact with them, Mr. Chairman. And their Mr. Justice Brandeis
issued a statement almost to that effect.
Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Pelley, what percent of the 4,000,000 did you
contact or have any contact with?
^Ir. Pelley. Naturally. Mr, Dempsey. that question answers itself.
A man cannot contact them all. But when you travel from one end
of the Nation to the other ■
Mr. Dempsey. I haven't any idea. I am asking you.
Mr. Pelley. I am giving you my data
7242 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Dempsey. You based your opinion upon the contact that you
had with the Jewish people. Now, how many people of the Jewish
faith did you have contact with of the 4,000,000?
Mr. Pellet. I have had contact with them for the last 6 years,
and I lived in New York City 10 years before that.
Mr. Dempsey. That doesn't answer my question.
Mr. Pellet. I know it. I cannot answer it.
Mr. Dempsey. I, too, lived in New York City.
What percent of the Jewish people did you come in contact with,
do you think, of this 4,000,000?
Mr. Pellet. Wouldn't we say, one out of every three persons that
we met during the day?
Mr. Dempset. Did you talk to one out of every three persons that
you met with during the day?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Dempset. Do you mean to say that you would pass a person,
if he was a Jewish person, and that that is what gave you that
impression ?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Dempsey. How was it that you obtained your impression?
Mr. Pelley. It is a very difficult question to answer under the
circumstances.
Mr. Dempsey. I can imagine so.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. On Page 28 of this document, entitled "The Hidden
Empire," there is a question that I want to ask concerning a certain
statement there. But before I do it I want to ask this question :
You stated yesterday that you had no predilection, that is, your
organization — and when I say "you" I am not talking about you
personally; I am talking about you as the leader of this organiza-
tion— you said that vou had no predilection against the members of
the Catholic faith.
Mr. Pelley. No, sir. ii
Mr. Starnes. You wage no war against the Catholic church?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. In any form. And you have not confined your
membership to what you called members of the Protestant faith?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir. By no means. In fact
Mr. Starnes. I notice here this statement : I quote : "The entire
Jesuit Order" — That is a Catholic group, as I understand it?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes (continuing) :
responsible for so much Catholic mischief throughout the world, was founded
by a Jew, Ignatius Loyola.
Mr. Pelley. May I answer it?
Mr. Starnes. Yes. Is that true or not true?
Mr. Pelley. That is a statement that was in the original manu-
script. You will not find that in the later issues of this same book.
It has been deleted as being untrue. W^hen I discovered it in there,
I took it out of the book quick, because I don't believe it. I didn't
write it, and I don't believe it.
Mr. VooRHLS. What were the later issues, Mr. Pelley? This is
1938.
UN-AM KKICAN rUUl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7243
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Voorhis, that book has had at least 20 reprmts.
Mr. VooRTiis. That is hiter than 1938, because in the 1938 issue that
statement still stands.
Mr. Pelley. AVhere is the date on it ?
]Mr, VooRiiis. The date is in the front.
]SIr. Pelley. AVhat pajie is that on?
Mr. VooRiiis. There is a letter in the front that is dated December
1938. So I assume that it must have been after that. That state-
ment is on pa<ie 28. and still stands.
Mr. Pelij^y. The one that I have here says :
What part the .Tews played in the world-wide success of the Society of Jesus
or the Jesuits probably can never be determined.
Is that in your booklet ?
]Mr. YooRHis. Xo. But this is the same as the Chairman's. It has
the date 1938 in it, and it still has that same statement.
]\Ir. Pelley. When I discovered that in there, and it was called to
my attention by a Catholic friend of mine, I made a special study
of the life of Ignatius Loj'ola.
;Mr. VooRHis. "When did you do that, Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Pelley. I think it was about 2 years ago, Mr, Voorhis.
Mr. VooRHis. But this book here elates itself after 1938, it seems
to me.
Mr. Pelley. It was about 2 3'ears ago I did it, nevertheless.
]\Ir. VooRHis. And you found that you were in error ?
]Mr. Pelley. I was in error. I didn't write that. But it was in a
])()ok that I was publishing, and I deleted it from the book.
Mr. VooRHis. Did you ever publicly, prior to your statement of a
moment ago, repudiate that admitted error?
]Mr. Pelley. I don't know that occasion has ever arisen for public
repudiation. I think you can find it in some of my correspondence.
Mr. Voorhis. It was an attack on the founder of a great order, a
Catholic priest.
]\Ir. Pelley. Correct. Quite unintentionally, because, as I say, I
do not approve of it.
^Ir. VooRHis. Don't you think that that would have called for
some public statement. Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. It might. Yes. The fact that it just didn't happen
is unfortunate.
Mr. Starxes. Now, in this same book, in discussing the Kahal in
Germany, I find the following statement on page 42. I quote:
Is it any wonder that with such a state of affairs obtaining, Hitler should
have been espoused by the pureblooded German people as a leader who would
rid them of this Kahal Frankenstein, whose American arm has already become
quite as offensive to enlightened persons here in the United States?
Do you mean by that, Mr. Pelley, that your organization approves
of the method that Hitler used in Germany in dealing with this
Kahal ?
Mr. Pelley. No. I mean — you are asking me about
Mr. Starnes. What do you call this organization ?
Mr. Pelley. We call it the Cahilla— C-a-h-i-1-l-a. It is a Spanish
word meaning a council or convention.
Mr. Starnes. You say that you don't.
n
7244 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Now, then, here is your further statement following that :
Hitler preached a doctrine of "Germany for the Germans" and we should
preach a doctrine of "America for Americans." Hitler used a steel wedge "to
split a hardwood block" and at once when he had gained to power and started
breaking up this Kahal monopoly, it set its publicity machinery at work all
over the world to defame and misrepresent him, suggest boycotts, and introduce
resolutions in houses of government which if acted upon would lead to war.
Now, do you in your organization quote with approval those senti-
ments expressed in that statement ? That is on page 42, beginning with
the second paragraph.
Mr. Pelley. I understand by that statement — Yes, sir. I subscribe
to it.
Mr. Starnes. Then you further state along in the same paragraph,
toward the end of it :
Hitler had thrown a big monkeywrench into the Kahal's machinery in its
steady progress for international domination.
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Chairman, will you find out what the Kahal is?
Mr. Starnes. ^Yhi\t is the Kahal ? Is that an international council ?
Mr. Pellet. An international Jewish organization; yes, sir, of
which there is very much literature in existence ; and I refer you to
the history written by Mrs. Nestor Webster. That has a full account
of it. She gives it in several of her books.
Mr. Starnes. On page 43, in the first full paragraph, further dis-
cussing the work of this Kahal in Germany and how Hitler dealt with
it, I quote :
Hitler saw the sword of Damocles hanging over Germany and in saving Ger-
many from this insidious foe it meant that he acted as any courageous leader
would act to defend his country, which, in brief, was to protect it from the false
Jew. America ought to be grateful for the barrier that is thus being created in its
behalf, rather than join with those who are on record as having ulterior designs
against this country which was once the land of the free and the home of the
brave.
Your organization quoted that with approval.
Mr. Pellet. May I answer that question with qualifications?
Mr. Starnes. Answer it first and then you may qualify it.
Mr. Pellet. Yes; I understand.
Mr. Starnes. You quote it.
Mr. Pellet. I subscribed to it qualified by a request of this com-
mittee that, if you will put it into the record, I would like to put in
the statement the information or data on which I based that opinion.
Mr. Starnes. You may attach that as an exhibit.
Mr. Pellet. I may?
Mr. Starnes. Because this is only an exhibit, you see. That is all
that the document is. In quoting your testimony we can incorporate
that as an exhibit.
Mr. Pellet. In other words, Avoidd that appear in the record?
Mr. Starnes. That would depend.
Mr. Pellet. Would it become a part of the record?
Mr. Starnes. It would depend entirely on how voluminous it was.
Mr. Pellet. For instance, if I do, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Starnes. To make a long story short, you may bring your
data to the committee and submit it ; and then, after discussing it
with you, if tlie committee feels that it should be incorporated in
this record, we will do so.
UN-AMEIULAN I'KorACJANDA ACTIVITIES 7245
Mr. Pei.lky. You nionu in exocntive session?
Mr. Stakxks. Xo. You may binn<>- it to an open session. It is
quite all rioht for you to do that. We ])refer that. Then we can
-determine whetliei- or not it is too lengtliy to incorporate it or whether
it is proper to ilo so.
I think there is one other question that 1 wanted to ask you concern-
inu: this ])uhlicati()n.
I hand you herewith, Mr. Pelley, for your examination, a small
circuhir or l)0()klet with your picture
Mr. Peiley. All ri<>ht! 1 identify it without handing it down.
Mr. Staknes. Can you identify it?
Mr. Pellet. Yes,
^Ir. Stakxes. That is an authentic l)Ooklet ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. One that was published by you?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starxes. And sent out by your organization?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starxes. It is entitled ''What You Should Know About the
Pelley Publications."
Mr. PELiJiT. Yes.
Mr. Starxes. ^Ir. Voorhis of California has a question that lie
would like to ask you now.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Pelley, on the very last page, as part of your
conclusions, I read you this :
No one should be so asinine as to think that the Jewish-Bolshevik gang are
going to relinquish their gains-to-date without a struggle. No one should he
.so childish as to think that an ordinary I'arty-switching election will right
the Ship of State, nor get the idea that a crisis can be avoided, a collapse
staved off.
]\Ir. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis [reading] :
There is no need to despair at the suggestion that a revolutionary condition
cannot be prevented.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. Get this:
even if it could be circumvented our people and our Nation would fall right
back into the same old indolent ways of thinking and living, tolerating the
same subversive elements.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. A little further down it says:
But to elfect the necessary purge, the disruption must come, the crisis must
be met —
And so on.
Now, Mr. Pelley. is there any other group of people in the country
to your knowledge who take the position that a trial of force some-
Avhere along the line is going to be necessary, besides this statement
of yours?
Mr. Pellet. Well, Mr. Voorhis, I am not subscribing to that.
That is not my statement. It is a statement published by my pub-
lishing house.
Mr. VooRHis. But this booklet is by one of your very members of
the organization that you sponsor and are entirely familiar with ?
7246 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. All rio;lit. We won't quibble with it.
Mr. VooRHis. I didn't mean to say anythinc; further. I presume
in view of that fact that you stand on this book '?
Mr. Pelley. I subscribe to the general sentiment ; and I am very
fearful that up to the time that Mr. Dies and his committee began
to investig'ate the subversive activities, that that same disruption
then that I referred to was on the make.
Mv. VoouHis. I wanted you to answer the question as I asked it.
Mr. Pelley. Pardon me. What was the question?
Mr. VooRHis. Whether there is any other group to your knowledge
in the Nation which takes an exactly parallel idea with that, namely,
that at some place along the line of development there must be a trial
of force, that is, a revolutionary condition taking place.
Mr. Pelley. Any otlier group that has been sponsoring that?
You mean besides the Silver Legion?
Mr. VooRHis. The same thing in different words.
Mv. Pelley. Besides the Silver Legion ?
Mr. VooRHis. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. I imagine, 60 or TO percent of the so-called vigilante
organizations in the United States take that same view.
Mr. VooRHis. So does the Communist Party, doesn't it ?
Mr. Pelley. I would indict the Communist Party as being pro-
vocative of the very thing that we are trying to
Mr. VooRHis. The Communist Party says in different words prac-
tically the same thing that you say there, don't they ? Their position
is that the time is going to come when force will have to be used?
Mr. Pelley. But they are taking the angle, Mr. Vooi-his, that force
will have to be used to accomplish their objective.
Mr. VooRHis. Then you are taking the view that force will have
to be used to accomplish your objective?
Mr. Pelley. If they employ force, force would have to be met with
force.
Mr. VooRHis. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. VooRiiis. Yes. Force would have to be met with force.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. That is O. K. We will put it on that basis. Both
groups at both extremes say that same thing.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. Isn't it also true that you would have great difficulty
securing members for your organization unless you could point out
another group that was a danger to the country in your opinion?
Mr. Pelley. I don't think that that word "difficulty" should figure
in there. No. I wouldn't say "difficulty."
Mr. VooRiiis. Do you think that you could get just as many sup-
porters if you didn't tell them that there was a great danger of a
revolutionary condition and a collapse?
Mr. Pelley. My dear IMr. Voorhis, dozens of people wrote in to
me and said, "Thank God I have found someone who agrees with
my views, and I want to join." I have no active proselyters out
trying to pull people into the Silver Legion. I haven't had for
2 years.
Mr. VooRHis, My only question w^as if you could get as many
members if it were not for the fact that you painted this picture
that is painted on the last page of this book.
UN-AMERICAN rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7247
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Voorhis, I really believe in a condition matnr-
niir — —
Mr. VooRTiis. I am not qnestioning that, Mr. Pelley. But it is
true, is it not. that this picture of a revolutionary condition about
to come is a picture that you are setting up?
Mr. Pelley. But look how our situation has changed in the last
year and a half.
Mr. ^"coKHIS. I think it has myself.
Mr. Pelley. Certainly. In fact
Mr. VooRHis. Now, iVant to ask you one more question, and then
I am through.
Isn't it true, IMr, Pelley, that it is altogether possible that with
groups on the two extremes of society, both saying that the time
will come when force must be used and that we must prepare for
that time, that you are gradually going to run a very distinct risk
of whittling away tlie allegiance to the constitutional government
of the Nation and increase the likelihood of the very thing that you
say you are trying to prevent ?
Mr. Pelley.' Mr. Voorhis, I subscribe to that so completely and
with the work which has been done by the Dies committee — and I
have expressed it outside in publications — that if its work continues
and goes on tlie Silver Shirt Legion stops. We have no more use
for it.
Mr. YooRiiis. But, you see, much of the work of the Dies commit-
tee is directed against all organizations of that character, including
yourself.
Mr. Pelley. That is perfectly permissible, and I am glad for you
to do it.
Mr. Thomas. Do I understand you to say that if the Dies com-
mittee continues with its investigations the Silver Legion will imme-
diately fold up?
Mr. Pelley. I would say yes, with my blessing. If the Dies com-
mittee will <ro ahead
(r>
iSIr. Thomas. That answers the question.
Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, may I saj' something?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
Mr. Mason. In view of the fact that the League for Peace and
Democracv. which was an oroanization of the Communist Partv, has
folded up, and you now announce that the Silver Shirt Legion may
fold up if the Dies committee continues, perhaps with the help of
such compacts as there exists between Hitler and Stalin and Stalin's
attack upon Finland, and the work of the Dies committee and all
the rest of it, all of these might have a tendency to fold up. Is that
right ?
Mr. Pelley. Fine; yes.
Mr. Mason. And that is because of the philosophy that our Mr.
Voorhis has expressed, that when you have two groups one opposing
the other, one feeding upon hatred of the other, that keeps whittling
away at the group in the middle, which is the constitutional group?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. But, Mr. Mason, may I ask a question?
Mr. Starnes. Yes.
!Mr. Mason. Yes. I want your expression on that.
Mr. Pelley. Fine.
94931— 40— vol. 12 4
7248 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I repeat, when this whole thing was started I couldn't even get
Members of the Congress to take the attitude that they have taken
here since 193.S. You have my hopes. You are doing a good job.
And while it leaves itself open to misinterpretation, and I do it in
the face of some sort of, we will say, moral intimidation from the
Dies committee, and I am perfectly willing to be indicted on the
score of that interi)retation, I am honest nevertheless in saying that
if the Dies committee goes ahead and licks the subversive elements in
this Nation, my work is done.
Mr. Mason. On both sides, the right and tlie left ?
Mr. Pellet. That is right. Absolutely. And I will bless the Dies
connnittee the day that they do it. And the mistaken impression is
gone then about my own desires and ambitions in this.
Mr. Starnes. Tlie Giair wants to say that we don't care anything
about praise nor condemnation. We don't seek it from the right or
from the left, from witnesses or nonwitnesses. We are trying to dis-
cover the facts about un-American activities in this country.
As has been so ably stated by some of the other members of the
committee, if the Silver Shirt Legion folds up and goes out of
existence, it won't be the first by any means that has folded up and
gone out of existence since this investigation was begun.
We want to make it very clear as a matter of record that we seek
neither praise nor condemnation insofar as this witness is con-
cerned. We have listened to condemnation from the right and from
the left, and it has gone into the record. I cannot see that it has
contributed anything to the investigation.
I must remind all of you that I hope you will make your answers
responsive to the questions, because personally I am one individual
on this committee that does not care what anybody thinks about the
connnittee. All I am after is trying to find out the truth about un-
American and subversive activities.
I will concede that every American citizen may think as he pleases.
But I don't care to have the record cluttered up with praise nor con-
demnation, because the witness, like some members of the committee,
has expressed both praise and condemnation of the committee itself.
Mr. Pellet. Eight.
Mr. Starnbs. The witness has bitterly condemned this committee.
The witness has sued this committee.
Mr. Pellet. Eight.
]\Ir. Starnes. The \vitness has bitterly excoriated, as he has a
perfect right to do as an American citizen, this committee. The
members of this committee itself have bitterly criticized some of its
procedure and its rulings, and have voted against its continuance,
and then have worked along with it.
Therefore the Chair is going to say here and now that I don't care
for any more expressions from the witness or from members of this
committee concerning whether it is good or bad. All he wants is
the truth.
Mr. Dempset. You are not going to get the truth, because he has
sued the committee for $500,000.
Mr. Starnes. It was a million dollars. But let us proceed with
the business. Have you finished with The Hidden Empire, Mr.
Voorhis ?
Mr. VooEHis. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7249
Mr. Starnes. Now, I should like to ask the witness some ques-
tions here concernino; a statement set fortli in What You Should
Know About the Pelley Publications.
On what we have numbered page 5 for convenience, I find this
statement :
The purposo of the Silver Legion was to enlighten and train leaders who
should be competent to act iu a time of criisis —
Mr. PixLEY. Yes.
Mr. Starxes (continuino;) :
binding them together lu a unified whole — so that there might be cooperation
jind cohesion among them throughout the forty-eight States.
Was that a military form of action?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Starnes. Or a political form of action?
Mr. Pellet. In the last 2 years, Mr. Chairman, the whole trend
of the Silver Legion has been toward political enlightenment.
Mr. Starnes. Political action?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. I quote further from this document :
To recruit millions of men would take too much time, but if a handful of influ-
ential people were recruited in each place, and those people stepped forth and
assumed charge of aroused citizens when red-strilve situations such as at
Warren, Ohio, were precipitating the destruction of citizen life and property,
the effect would be the same as though those aroused citizens were tacit members
of the Ijcgion itself.
Mr. Pellet. I subscribe to that. I don't see anything un-American
in it.
Mr. Starnes. Isn't that a form of vigilante action that you men-
tioned
Mr. Pellet. I don't see anything un-American in any form of vigi-
lante action.
Mr. Starnes. You are not responsive, and I haven't completed my
question. In Official Dispatch No. 1 you spoke of setting up an ac-
tive, dynamic, vigilante organization?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Now, is this in pursuance of that same type of
philosophy ?
Mr. Pellet. It is not, and I told you we abandoned that first type
of activity in 1934, and have not resumed it.
Mr. Starnes. A moment ago you said that in sending forth that
first manifesto, this Official Dispatch No. 1, that you thought that that
should be based on a democratic procedure of 51 percent or more of the
citizens of the country.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. And this specific statement is that to recruit millions
of men will take too much time.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Are you advocating in here that a minority should
step forth and take charge?
Mr. Peixet. No. I am not. At least, that is not the intent of
that statement.
Mr. Starnes. That is not the intent of that statement?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. The intent of the statement is that if Ave ever
come to an economic or political crisis, or crack-up, as we very fre-
7250 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
quently use the term, which is better — to have a group that knows
something about what it is to do to attempt to restore hxw and order,
or to have a wild bunch running riot?
Mr. Starnes. I quote further just one sentence aft^r these two quo-
tations which I have read :
Such was Pelley's plan and the Silver Legion started.
Now, was it the policy of your organization and yourself to step
in as a vigilante organization whenever there was a strike?
Mr, Pellet. Indeed, no.
Mr. Starnes. Was your organization opposed to the right to
strike and the right to organize on the part of labor?
Mr. Pellet. Absolutely not.
Mr. Starnes, That is not the construction that should be placed
on that?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. That was not the intent of the writer of
it when he wrote it or printed or circulated it.
Mr. Starnes. Now, speaking about yourself — and this publication
here refers to you specifically — on page 7, in the paragraph entitled
"Hewing to the Line," I quote :
He knows that a vast economic crisis is ahead, as the aftermath of NRA
havoc visits its rigors on the Nation. But he rests covfident that he knoivs
how to instruct his men what to do at its arrival, precisely as he has called
the shots iinen-inghj mi the Overseas gang to the moment.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Now, what do you mean by this expression, that
you know how to instruct your men what to do upon the arrival of
this crisis?
Mr. Pellet. They have utterly familiarized themselves with the
tactics of the subversive forces for 7 years, or for the length of time
that they have been in the organization, and don't join in with them.
Remember that that force is predicated on the stipulation of a
crisis. That was the essence of the dociunent when it was written
and published.
Mr. Starnes. But you claim in this same statement that the eco-
nomic crisis was the aftermath of N. R. A. havoc?
Mr. Pellet. By Jove, I believe it was.
Mr. Starnes. And that you are confident that you know how to
instruct the men Avhat to do when this crisis arises.
Mr. Pellet, Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Was it your intention and your idea that your or-
ganization at that moment should step in
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Starnes. And take any sort of drastic action
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Starnes. AVhich would force people out, as was stated in an
earlier publication of yours here, out of office and put people of
your own persuasion in?
Mr. Pellet. No; because we coidd not. Mr. Chairman, if there
had been a complete overthrow, on which that is j^redicated, there
would be no people in office: so they could not be forced out.
Mr. Starnes. This booklet here. What You Should Know About
the Pelley Publications, is a current publication ?
Mr. Pellet. No.
UN-A.MKKKAX rU()rA(!AXDA ACTIVITIES 7251
Mr. Starnes. It is not current?
Afr. Pf.lley. No. It is just a little leaflet that was given out in
explanation of the ])ublications.
-Mr. Thomas. What is the date? That has been published just
recently, hasn't it?
Mr. Starxes. I am tryinfj to find it.
IMr. Pelley. That was published about a year ago.
]Mr. Starnes. Have you any questions, Mr. Voorhis, on that?
Mr. Voorhis. I would like to address myself to the 51 percent for
just a moment, ^Ir. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Pelley, I have here one of these little green books
that you sent out for the purpose of instructing the members. Isn't
that what they are for?
Mr, Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Voorhis. I would like to read just a little bit from page 11.
It says :
Too many prospective Silver Sliirts gain the idea that nothing can be clone
in this Nation, toward yanking it out of its doldrums, putting down the New
Dealers, and paving the way for the Christian commonwealth, until at least
51 per cent of our jieople have been sold on defensive tactics and have pledged
their allegiance to men like Pelley, Zacharay, and others^leading the same sort
of fight in America.
Men like Pelley, Zachary, and others, know in utter candor that the time
never is going to arrive when thev can sell 51 per cent of this Nation on the
Silver Shirts.
In the first place the enemy ensconced in the Federal Government — precisely
as it first ensconced itself in the Federal Government of Spain — is not going to
allow men like Pelley, Zacharay, and others, to gain the ear of public atten-
tion, if it can help it. Furthermore, there isn't time, or general intelligence
enough, in the rank and file, for 51 per cent of our people to grasp the necessity
for direct action, sanely taken, that they fall in voluntarily behind a leader,
and help themselves.
Prospective Silver Shirts, right off the bat. must get such notions out of their
lieads. The great juass of the people can be enlightened with tons of expose
literature — true. It can be made as erudite and sympathetically minded as
possible, so as to minimize opposition when the time comes for action.
P>ut Hitler had it right when he said in "My Battle" — "Mein Kampf"— "Human-
ity is made up of three great classes. First, there are good men at the top,
Avhich the masses will follow. Second, there are bad men at the bottom, which
the masses will not resist. Third, in between is the great sheep flock of humanity,
pitifully wanting peace, that will do anything but fight."
But here is the great salvation of the proposition, which every true leader
knows : "If this great majority won't fight the projectors of suliversion and tur-
moil— at least with anything but talk — neither will it effectively oppose any
force that may come along with the intent of putting down subversion and
turmoil."
I just wondered in connection with your answer to the chairman
on the question of whether you were ready to abide by the decision
of 51 percent of the people, arrived at in a constitutional manner, what
you have to say about that passage. It seems to me that it contradicts
what you said before.
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Voorhis, if I may just for a moment go back and
answer your question as to intent and motive :
I have tried to expound that there is a great situation economically
ahead of us. We have tried to prepare for it and enlighten people
as to its fundamentals, hoping thereby to make them efficient in a
time of crisis, to do something.
7252 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIA'ITIES
Mr. VooRHis. Don't you believe that the economic problem can be
solved within the framework of our Constitution?
Mr. Pelley. I tliink that as lonj^ as the committee keeps after the
subversive elements that are making it bad, I do; and I hope and
pray that it is going to.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever try to achieve your aims by obtaining 5i
percent of the people's approval?
Mr. Pelley. My dear Mr. Casey, I tried so hard to do it. I even
went out to the Pacific coast in 1936
Mr. Casey. I think you have answered. You tried to do it?
Mr. Pelley. Very sincerely.
Mr. Casey. That was the aim of the Silver Shirts at one time, at
least ?
Mr. Pelley. That has been the aim of the Silver Shirts all the way
through, and it still is.
Mr. Casey. And you are the acknowledged leader of the Silver-
Shirts?
Mr. Pelley. I am.
Mr. Casey. And if the Silver Shirts had achieved their aim, woulcL
you have been the man in charge of the Government ?
Mr. Pelley. Probably, if our constitutional government
Mr. Casey. I think you have answered the question.
Mr. Pelley. It is only fair to let me qualify that, Mr. Casey.
If our constitutional government had gone down, as it has gone
down in similar constitutional governments, as they have gone down
in other countries, it has been in my estimation a matter of one man,
with those around him who understand the situation, who have been
the resuscitation of those countries.
Mr. Casey. And if you had become the leader of the country,
would you have put into effect Hitler's policies so far as they are
referable to the anti-Jewish policy?
Mr. Pelley. I probably would, sir.
Mr. Starnes. I believe you said in your testimony yesterday that
you started your organization with a group of individuals in 1933?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And that you inaugurated it in the early part of
1934?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And that you were investigated by the so-called.
McCormack committee in the early part of 1934 ?
Mr. Pelley. In May.
Mr. Starnes. In May?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. At that time they seized all of your records. I be-
lieve that your testimony was that they got everything except one
typewriter ?
Mr. Pelley. Very much so.
May I qualify that ? The action that was taken at that time was
taken in conjunction with the receivership and bankruptcy of the
Galahad Press.
Mr. Starnes. I see.
Mr. Pelley. Afterwards, Mr. Chairman, we had to bring suit in
the Federal court to have the receiver in bankruptcy relinquish the
UN-AMEIU(\VX PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7253
records and the fiiiaiiees and books of the Silver Legion, which they
had no rijjht to touch ; and the judge so ruled.
Mr. Starnes. And you made the statement or charge that certain
of the documents later turned uj) in certain publications in this
country '.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. At that time, in 11);H, I believe you stated that you
had Yl States^ in which you had organizations at that time?
Mr. 1*ELLEY. In which I had posts or units.
Mr. Starnes. Posts or units?
Mr. Pellet. Don't call tliem organizations. Call them units.
Mi-. Starnes. In 19H1) you luid 22 States?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
ISIr. Starnes. In 1935 how many did you have ? Do you know ?
]\Ir. Pellet. No. I cannot tell you. In 1935? Wait a minute.
In 1935 we were out, inactive. We didn't do anything.
Mr. Starnes. You came back in 1936?
Mr. Pfxlet. In 1936. The early part of 1937.
Mr. Starnes. Since that time you have been expanding? You
said you had spontaneous groups in 22 States.
Now, this Liberation is an official publication of your organization?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. I have a copy here inider date of February 24, 1934.
On page 1, I ([uote :
Christians of America, the tragedy which Hitler avoided must be forestalled
in these United States.
That is in volume 6, No. 1.
And on page 3 appears the statement :
American .Jewry openly acknowledges its admiration for Communism, that
Communism is Jewish.
Then in an article entitled "Will There Be a Slaugliter of Gentiles
in x^merica?" on page 4 comes this quotation:
Let us turn from Russia and see what m\gM have happened in Oermany, if
it had not been for Hitler.
And then this other quotation, and this is in italics :
With the undeniable connect ions between Marxism, Communism and World-
Jewry, it became tragically apparent that the life of Oermany depended upon
a tussle rrith Jeirri/ to actually settle xvhich race teas the strongest in German
life.
This was the message which Hitler brought to the Teutons.
That is documentarv corroboration of vour own statement made
to the connnittee in the course of your testimony during the past
2 days, wliich indicated that you did admire Hitler very much for his
manner of handling the Jewish situation, and you approved of his
manner of handling the question of the Jewish people in Germany ;
is tliat correct?
i\Ir. Pellet. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. Do you admire Hitler for his compact with Stalin,
which was entered into in 1939 ?
Mr. Pellet. I decidedly do not.
Mr. Starnes. So you changed your mind about Hitler as you have
about the
7254 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. About the Dies committee.
Mr. Starnes. About other organizations?
Mr. Pellet. The Dies committee.
Mr. Starves. About this committee?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. On March 17, 1934, in another copy of Liberation,
there appears an article entitled "Silver Shirts, Don't Be Fooled by
Startling Propaganda." I fuid there this statement, I quote :
The fact that the Jew is in the seat of power makes but oue issue in these
United States, and that is the forcible removal of the Jew from office, or from
controlling public office. It is just as simple as that and some day it will
be just as simply realized. The Silver Legion takes such a stand because it
has sufficient evidence at hand to impeach and convict the great mass of them.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Now, you advocated officially in your official publica-
tion the forcible removal of Jews from public office in the United
States?
Mr. Pellet. I wouldn't want to endorse that statement to the
extent that I believe in violence in doing it. Force and violence
are two different things. You can be very forceful about a thing,
even in your speech, but you are not employing violence.
Mr. Starnes. You are making that as a qualifying statement,
then, to this article?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Mason. In this connection, your difference between the words
"force" and "violence," isn't it true, Mr. Pelley, that all through your
writings you have carefully selected words that to the great mass
of people mean one thing, but which you in your reservation in your
mind think of as meaning another thing?
Now, to the great mass of people, to use force means physical force.
To you, who have a clear distinction of the difference in words, it
does not mean physical violence at all. It means something else.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Mason. Do you get my point?
Mr. Pellet. I get your point.
Mr. Mason. And I think that after reading some of your literature,
that that runs all the way through — a careful selection of words that
mean one thing to the mass and mean another thing to the writer.
Mr. Pellet. Well, Mr. Mason, not with mischievous intent. Now,
that is a matter
Mr. Mason. I understand. But that would be a fair, however,
analysis of a person who knows something about the meaning of
"words to make ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes. I would say that that would be a very fair
analysis from your standpoint; but not with mischievous intent.
Mr. Starnes. However, you do or did advocate such force as was
necessary to remove them?
Mr. Pellet. No. I want to repudiate any writing that was in-
tended to remove any person from any Government position, regard-
less of race, by violence.
Mr. Starnes. But you do admit that that would be a fair inter-
pretation of that article b}^ the mass of people of this country — that
w^hen you say that they should be driven from office or removed from
UN-AMERIOAX I'UOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7255
office by force, tluit it would be a faii- interpretation, as Mr. Mason
bas just said?
^Ir. Pelley. :Mi«ibt I just see tbat article, Mr. Cbairman? AVould
you let me see the nature of the publication?
(Mr. Starnes banded a document to the witness.)
Mr. Pelley. That is such an isolated instance, a thing like that.
Mr. Staknes. That is :March 17, 1934.
There are some other questions that I wanted to ask you, and then
we will come back to that.
I have here Pelley "s the Silver Shirt Weekly. Is that an official
publication of yom's also?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. That was published during the time that liti-
gation was on down there, when the Silver Legion w^as entirely -
Mr. Starnes. This was sent out to the members of the Silver Shirts
and was regarded as their official publication; is that correct?
]\Ir. Pelley. It might be interpreted that way.
Mr. Starnes. At that time Mr. Robert C. Summerville was a mem-
ber of your statf at the national headci[uarters ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. I believe you said a moment ago that he didn't
sever his connection with the Silver Legion until 1936.
I\Ir. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. I find here on page 4, in an article entitled, "Are You
]\[entally Prepared for the Events of 1935?" the following, I quote:
The Jews have the money but the Genliles have the numbers. No matter
what meaj^ures toward repression may be taken — in the sacred name of preserv-
ing existing institutions — it will be a very fine thing in that hour not to be a
Jew.
Don't you think that a fair interpretation by the average citizen
reading tliat would be that there was a threat of force to be applied
against the people of the Jewish race in this country from some
soui'ce ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You admit that that is a fair interpretation?
iNIr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. I wish the witness would not bow his head. The
stenographer cannot get it.
Mr. Starnes. The answer is "Yes."
Mr. Pelley. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Starnes. I note that you are carried on the editorial page
here as being the editor in chief of the Pelley Weekly.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. I would like you to identify this document, if you
can do so. It is entitled "How Much Do You Know About the
Secret Government of Our Nation?" It is bulletin No. 3, national
headquarters, box 2630, Asheville, N. C. See if you can identify
that.
Mr. Pelley. This particular document — I remember it — was pub-
lished in the latter part of 1933 or early 1934, while I was on the
Pacific coast, from a manuscript which was brought down to head-
quarters by Mr. Collie.
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Collie was at that time treasurer or secretary?
Mr. Pelley. No. He w^as later in February one of the incor-
porators, that is, in my office.
7256 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. Box 2630 at Asheville was the national headquarters?
Mr. Pelley. That is true. It was put out under my auspices in
my absence. I did not have the editing of it. So I cannot qualify
as approving its sentiments. I don't think it was given out without
my counsel.
Mr. Starnes. Do you approve of this statement here, that this is
one of the ideals of the organization at that time :
But if you are 18 years of age, of reasonably sounrl health, and not afraid
to risk vour life and limb for your c-ouutry, you are asked to take the oath of
consecration upon you, and step out as a TRUE CHRISTIAN SOLDIER, garbed
in a shirt of Silver?
Mr. Pelley. I don't see anything un-American in that sort of
thing.
Mr. Starnes. Wliat was contemplated? What was the necessity
that was felt would arise to cause American citizens of that type to
risk their lives for their country?
Mr. Pelley. Because we still maintained as a fundamental of our
organization that the subversive forces in this country were in such
ascendancy that they were going to grab control.
Mr. Starnes. It was your thought that the American citizen of
that kind might have to take up arms?
Mr. Pelley. I think so.
Mr. Starnes. Against people in his own country?
Mr. Pelley. Against what?
Mr. Starnes. Against these forces, people in his own country?
Mr. Pelley. Absolutely. I don't mean against the people them-
selves.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. Pelley. I am talking here about, not against, the Government
of the people themselves. I am talking about some forces that have
succeeded in doing the same things in countries overseas.
Mr. Starnes. I have here this official dispatch of the Silver Shirts
of ximerica, Asheville, N. C. It is entitled "Silver Shirts of America
are Mobilizinff to Protect Your Life. How Much are You Willing
to Do for Them ?" That is an official dispatch ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. I quote from page 3 of this official dispatch:
The only man in Europe who correctly understands the tie-up between
Communism and the predatory elements among the Hebrews, is Hitler. He is
maligned in this country because Hebrews are determined the stark trutli
shall not be known, and use every agency of publicity to disparage and vilify
him.
Was that a correct statement of your attitude at that time concern-
ing Hitler ?
Mr. Pelley. It was, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Toward people of tlie Jewish race in this country?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir. Not in this country. In Germany.
Mr. Starnes. You say that he is maligned in this country?
Mr. Pelley. Absolutely, Yes.
Mr. Starnes (continuing) :
Because the Hebrews are determined that the stark truth shall not be known,
and use every agency of publicity
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7257
Mr. Staknes. In other words, this official dispatch of yours was
a defense of Hitler.
I quote further from this same official dispatch, on page 4 :
On January 31. 1!).S3 — the day that Hitlor canio into power in Germany—
Pelley came out from under cover with liis Silver Sliirt national organization.
Having planted depots of his facts throughout the entire United States,
enlightened police and vigilante groups, secured the cooperation of outraged
Christian citizens to carry on regardless of what happens to him personally,
his organization of SILVL^H SHIRTS is now snow-hailing exactly as Hitler's
Nazis snow-hailed in Germany when the German people were at last persuaded
to the truth.
Is that an official expression on your part of the attitude, the aims,
and the purposes of the Silver Legion, as contained in this official
bulletin to its members^
jNIr. Pelley. It was.
Mr. Starnes. The committee stands adjourned until 2 o'clock.
(AVhereupon a recess was taken from 12:20 to 2 p. m.)
AFTER RECESS
The committee reassembled, pursuant to the taking of recess, at 2
o'clock p. m.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM DUDLEY PELLY— Resumed
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Pelley, for the sake of the record, I will ask you
to identify a few of the publications or documents wdiich I shall hand
to you, so they maj* be used as exhibits to your testimony.
I hand you herewith a publication or document entitled, "The Key
to Crisis."
Mr. Pellet. Correct, that is all right.
Mr. Starnes. Can you identify that?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Staenes. Is that an official publication of the Pelley pub-
lishers ?
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Starnes. And of the Silver Shirt Legion ?
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Starnes. And when I ask j^ou these questions, Mr. Pelley, in
order to save us both vocal effort, it will be understood as to each
and every one of them, separately and severally, we are identifying
them as if they are so identified by you as being published by the
Pelley Publishers and being official publications or publications en-
dorsed by the Silver Shirt Legion and used by it in its program and
its campaign ?
Mr. Pelley. That is good — that is all right.
Mr. Starnes. And you identify The Key to Crisis as being pub-
lished by the Pelley Publishers and as an official pamphlet of the
Silver Legion?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir: T do.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit 1.")
Mr. Starnes. I have another here called "Cripples' Money."
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir.
7258 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. You identify that?
Mr. Pelley. I do.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pellej^
Exhibit No. 2.")
Mr. Starnes. I have a third one which we find entitled "Our Secret
Political Police."
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
Mr. Starxes. Is that correct?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. And you so identify it?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 3.")
Mr. Starnes. The Hidden Empire. You have already identified
that ?
Mr. Pelley. Ili<2;ht.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes and heretofore
identified, was marked "Pelley Exhibit No. 4.")
Mr. Starnes. We have another, What Manner of Government is
the Christ to Set Up.
Mr. Pelley, Right. However, ISIr. Starnes, that is one which was
issued prior to 1934, as I explained this morning, on the previous
program which we have since abandoned.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 5.")
Mr. Starnes. Then There is a Jewish World Plot, Jews Say So.
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 6.")
Mr. Starnes. Then here is another one entitled "Indians Aren't
Eed."
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 7.")
Mr. Starnes. Then another one which may prove very interesting ::
What Every Congressman Should Know.
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 8.")
Mr. Starnes. Then another: Dupes of Judah.
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 9.")
Mr. Starnes. And another one entitled, "Duress and Persuasion."
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 10.")
Mr. Starnes. Thei\ a larger one entitled, "No More Hunger by
Pelley."
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 11.")
Mr. Starnes. Then finally a pamphlet entitled, "The President
Knows."
UX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7259
Mr. Pellet. But not -written by me.
Mr. Starnes. Xot Avritten by you ?
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. However, that is published by the Pelley Publishers?
Mr. Pellet. As ]iublishers, yes, sir.
Mr. Starxes. And is disseminated by the organization?
Mr. Pellet. It was. It has not been for the past year.
Mr. Starnes. It has been but not during the past year?
Mr. Pelij:t. Correct.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 12.")
Mr. Starnes. Xow. the connnittee will reserve the right, of course,
to ask you questions concerning passages in any of these documents
at a later date.
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. We are merely introducing them now in order to save
time when we do refer to them, but they are now officially identified
and made a part of the record.
In connection with your publications, have you ever taken material
from World Service ?
jNIr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Did you do that with or without crediting the source ?
Mr. Pellet. That I can't answer, ISIr. Chairman, unless you give
me particular instances in which it is quoted.
Mr. Starnes. Did you use any other German Nazi literature in
your publications other than from World Service ?
Mr. Pellet. Not that I recall at the present moment. I may have
done so.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Pelley should try to re-
fresh his memory a little bit more. He has answered a great many
questions over the past few days by not being able to recall. Cer-
tainly he should be able to remember whether he did that or not.
Mr. Starnes. You mean as to whether he used other sources of
material ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
^Ir. Starnes. What is your best recollection about that, as to
whether you used other German Nazi literature in your publications
with or without crediting the sources other than World Service?
Mr. Pellet. To be frank with you, Mr. Chairman, I don't know
of any other Nazi publication that has come to my desk except World
Service. May I answer Mr. Thomas' question?
Mr. Starnes. Yes; in just a moment. I want to ask you a ques-
tion. World Service, of course, you can identify as a service of
German origin?
Mr. Pelley. No; I cannot, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. You do not?
I\Ir. Pellet. No ; I do not. I cannot do that. I don't know that
it is.
Mr. Starnes. You know it is reputed to be?
Mr. Pellet. Yes; in the press.
Mr. Starnes. And it comes from Stuttgart, Germany?
Mr. Pellet. E-f-o-r-t, isn't it?
Mr. VooRHis. E-r-f-u-r-t.
7260 UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVPriES
Mr. Starnes. We shall not quarrel over the spelling, but it does
come from Germany?
Mr. Pelley. I believe so.
Mr. Starnes. All right.
Mr. Pelley. I would just like to answer Mr. Thomas, if I may.
Mr. Starnes. What is your question? [Addressing Mr. Thoinas.]
Mr. Thomas. I haven't asked a question.
Mr. Pelley. He said I had a very weak memory, and I would
like to elucidate on that.
Mr. Starnes. No; he says he did not ask you any questions.
Were you a candidate for President of the United States in 193G?
Mr. Pelley. On the Christian Party ticket, Washington States
yes.
Mr. Starnes. That is out on the Pacific coast?
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. Did you speak during that campaign in furtherance
of your candidacy on the Pacific coast ?
Mr. Pelley. Seventeen times in 34 days.
Mr. Starnes. Was this a portion of your program or platform?
I quote :
It has been estimated that ten million Jews have come into the United States
since the World War, in utter contempt for the immigration quota laws.
By the power of vast sums of money taken from the American people by
the depredations of the Jews during the depression, they have everywhere
wormed their way into political control, financial domination and relief admin-
istration. Christian gentiles by the hundreds of thousands have had their
properties foreclosed on them or sold for high taxes.
Twenty million American natives are jobless but how many Jews do you
see jobless or impoverished.
Then you go on to say :
I propose to disfranchise the Jews by constitutional amendment to make it
impossible for a Jew to own property in the United States excepting under
the same licensing system successfully employed against Occidentals in Japan ;
to limit Jews in the professions, trades and sciences, by license according to
their quota of representation in the population.
Mr. Pelley. I absolutely endorse and stand by that 100 percent,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. Did you speak in Los Angeles durin.g the course of
that campaign?
Mr. Pelley. I did, sir.
Mr. Starnes. You did?
Mr. Pelley. I did.
Mr. Starnes. I will ask you when you spoke in the German hall
in Los Angeles on Jtdy 18, 1936, if you declared:
The time has come for an American Hitler and
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; I did not. I do not recall such words being
spoken by myself.
Mr. Starnes. Or anything to that effect?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; I liave never spoken of any pogrom against
the Jewish people. In fact I have worked for 7 years to control
elements that were trying to agitate exactly that thing.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question at this point?
Mr. Starnes. Mr. Voorhis wishes to ask you a question.
Mr. VooRHL-f. Mr. Pelley, on that very point : Here is a book of
yours, What Fifty Famous Men Have to Say About the Jews.
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7261
Mr. Pellet. Yos, sir.
Mv. VooRHis. And the last one in there is by James W. Gerard,
former Ambassador to Germany.
Mr. Pellet. Eiiiht.
Mr. VooRiiis. And lie is quoted in this book— I don't know wliether
he said this but you probably looked it up I assume, and he is
quoted here as saying :
As a fritnul of the Jewish race I want to state that if ever the American
Nation gets the idea that the Jewish race and communism are synonymous,
there is a possihility of a pogrom in the United States that will make those
of the czars look like a small parade.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. That is published in one of your booklets. And in
another of your booklets devoted in large part to criticism of the
Dies Committee, you make this statement, which you make elsewhere
as well :
Communism is Jewish, say these older and wiser persons.
Mv. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. Now, if both of those statements taken together are
to be taken seriously by people, it looks to me as though the effect of
your work Avould be in the direction of a pogrom.
]\Ir. Pellet. ]\Ir. Voorhis, there is a very important point there.
The statement of Ambassador Gerard was uttered in East Orange,
N. J., on the date specified, and I received it from the Jewish press
and copied it in my publication.
Xow, you cannot credit that to me.
Mr. VooRHis. I am not crediting it to you.
Mr. Pellet. Then I fail to get the question.
Mr. YooRHis. It is publislied in your booklet.
Mr. Pellet. Correct, I requoted it.
Mr. Voorhis. And ;vou, yourself, have you made the point here
toda}' and elsewhere in your writings that communism and the
Jewish race are practically synonymous?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir ; in spite of the fact, in answ^er to Mr. Demp-
sey's question this morning — I believe you agreed — maybe you did
not agree, but at any rate Mr. Dempsey made the point that only a
small percentage of the Jewish people could be termed Communists
by any stretch of the imagination. The point I am trying to make
is that I think the effect of those publications — in other words, Mr.
Voorhis. woiildnY you distinguish between the fact that I quotecl
Mr. Gerard in his remarks about a pogrom as an instance of some-
thing we must avoid? Isn't that plainly set forth in there?
Mr. Voorhis. No ; I don't think it is.
Mr. Pellet. In other words— may I ask for information? Your
assumption is, then, that in quoting Mr. Gerard I am endorsing a
poo^rom ?
Mr. ^^ooRHIS. No. In quoting :Mr. Gerard to the effect that you
did quote him, whether you quoted iiim correctly or not, I cannot
say, but in quoting that and then in contending as you do contend
that these two tilings are synonymous— communism" and Jews are
synonymous — the effect of your work would appear to me to be along
the line of the chairman's questioning when he asked vou about your
speech where you spoke of the pogrom.
7262 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Voorhis, is it proper at this moment to make this
statement in answer to your question : How happens it if insinuations
contained in your question are correct, in 7 j^ears of activity there
lias been no instance of any violence or any act — overt act — against
any individual Jew in the United States by any Silver Shirt, that has
my sanction ? Isn't that a sufficient answer to the integrity of what I
am trying to do?
Mr. VooRHis. Well, that would be the record up to date.
Mr. Pellet. Right; thank you.
Mr. VooEHis. What we were talking about was: What the program
in the future is.
Mr. Pellet. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I make one statement more?
Mr. Gerard went on record in the Jewish press, which issues I can pro-
duce under notification, with this statement which Mr. Voorhis has
quoted.
I copied that in my publications as an instance of what Mr. Gerard
said might happen in this United States, and for 7 years I have en-
deavored to stop exactly that thing, because I believe that unrestricted
and w^ithout the proper control it might happen.
Mr. Voorhis. But I don't see how you say the Jewish people and
communism are synonymous. That is the point.
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Chairman, you have asked me to introduce a
book called Jews Say So into the record. Does that mean the con-
tents of it goes into the record ?
Mr. Starnes. No; we asked you to identif}^ these officially as pub-
lications, either edited and written by you or members of your staff
or published by j^our company and disseminated by your organization,
as being representative of the viewpoint of the Silver Shirt Legion
on these particular questions.
Mr. Mason. They are merely exhibits.
Mr. Starnes. They are merely exhibits and are not incorporated
in the record.
Mr. Pellet. In other words, if there is an answer to the question
propounded bv Mr. Voorhis, I would have to read it out of the book,
is that right ? "
Mr. Starnes. That is right.
Mr. Pellet. In utmost integrity I reprinted in here something
like 82 affirmations by Jews themselves that this program which I
am criticized for, is true.
Mr. Starnes. That is attached as an exhibit and is available, of
course, and as far as official records are concerned it is an official part
of the record just like an exhibit in a court. It is not actually incor-
porated in the record, but you understand that it is a part of the com-
mittee's records.
Now, I failed to have you identify three other publications or, al-
leged publications of the Pelley Publishers, which are representative
of the official viewpoint of yourself and your organization. One is
The Suppressed Speech of Maj. Gen. George V. H. Moseley.
Mr. Pellet. I identify that.
Mr. Starnes. "Before the Dies Committee on June 1, 1939."
Mr. Pellet. I identify that.
Mr. Starnes. You identify that pamphlet ?
INIr. Pellet. I do.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 13.")
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7263
Mr. Starnes. The other is, Is this Nation Ruled by Invisible Gov-
ermnent. Do you identify that?
Mr. Pelij:y. I do, sir. It contains remarks of Hon. Jacob Tiiorkel-
son, a member of the present Congress.
]\Ir. Starnes. You identify that?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 14.")
Mr. Starnes. Then the final one which we have is. Dies' Political
Posse, Information for Gentile Patriots Served With Dies' Subpenas.
Mr. Pklley. I identify that.
Mr. Starnes. And in which I see there is anything but compli-
mentary remarks to the Dies committee.
Mr. VooRHis. Ave you following those instructions now, Mr. Pel-
ley ?
Ml'. Pellet. I am sorry to say I am not, Mr. Voorhis.
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Starnes was marked "Pelley
Exhibit No. 15.")
Mr. Starnes. I hand you herewith, merely for the purpose of
identification and to ask you some questions concerning the publica-
tion of the Silver Legion Ranger, published in Los Angeles, Calif.,
dated AVednesday, February 21, 1934, and another issue dated Wed-
nesday. April 18, 1934. Can 3'ou identify those?
Mr. Pellet. I can, sir.
(The papers referred to by Mr. Starrses were marked "Pelley
Exhibits Nos. 16 and 17.")
Mr. Starnes. They are official publications of the organization?
]\lr. Pellet. They are, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Bv the wav, what was this Silver Legion Ranger?
Mr. Pellet. A tabloid publication which was issued by what we
call the western headquarters of the Silver Legion in Los Angeles,
Calif.
Mr. Starnes. Do you have any particular group or selected group
of any type or character within the Silver Shirt Legion that you
call the Silver Rangers?
]Mr. Pellet. We did, Mr. Chairman, at one time for a brief period
of 8 months when Ave were operating on a propaganda or publicity
basis out of Oklahoma State.
Mr. Starnes. Do you recall what year that was ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes. That was from about September of 1933 to
about February or March of 1934.
Mr. Starnes. What was the particular purpose of that group?
Mr. Pellet. Because we had such a representation on the western
coast or the western part of the country that it was attempted — it
was experimented by putting a subheadquarters in the western part
of the country for the service of those people.
Mr. Starnes. You had a fast-growing membership in the western
part f)f the country (
]Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. Starnes. That was in California, Oregon, and Washington?
Mr. Pellet. Riglit. In fact all of the Western States west of the
Mississippi.
Mr. Starnes. The Door to Revelation, that is a book written by
you ?
94931 — 40 — vol. 12 5
7264 ux-AMEiacAN i'kopaganda activities
Mr. Pelley. It is, sir.
Mr. Staene.s. On paoe 415 apj^ears tins excerpt :
I knew two things whieli tlifse follows did not : First it was within the
Karma.
Mr. Pelley. Kioht.
Mr. Starnes (continuing) :
Of ihe Silver Shirt niovemenl to work out a maneuver somewhere in the west.
Second, tucked away in my tiles were letters from influential Oklahomans in-
forming me that if I would malce tlie legion a power in Oklahoma politics, aid
in private ways might in nowise be lacking.
Is that statement correct?
Mr. Pelley. Wluit is the last?
Mr. Starnes. I quote :
Seeond, tucked away in my files were letters from influential Oklahomans
informing me that if I would make the Legion a power in Oklahoma politics,
aid in private wa.vs might in nowise be lacking.
Mr. Pelley. That is correct.
Mr. Starxes. You did have that assurance?
Mr. Pei>ley. Mr. Chairman, I am a little bit hard of hearinix. That
is why I am questionino- _you.
Mr. Starmes. That is quite all ri^ht. The acoustics in these build-
incs is very bad. That statement of yours was correct?
Mr. Pelley. That is correct.
Mr. Starnes. That you had information or letters, rather, from
influential Oklahoma citizens to the effect if you would make the
Silver Legion movement a political power in Oklahoma that you could
find all of the ])rivate aid that you were looking for.
Mr. Pelley. Correct, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. Now, was it the purpose or a part of your political
prof^ram in the State of Oklahoma, or did you contemplate action
there, that would enable the Silver Shirt Legion to take over the
Statehouse — the State government ?
Mr. Pelley. Emphatically not.
Mr. Starnes. A few other questions I would like to ask you. Do
you know Henry D. Allen ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Starnes. How long have you known him, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. I )net him in Los Angeles, Calif., I should say about
April or May of 1934.
Mr. Starnes. Did he hold any official position in the Silver Shirt
Legion ?
Mr. Pelley. Xo, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Did he ever work wuth your organization in any
manner ?
Mr. Pelley. He did.
Mr. Starnes. Either in a sympathetic capacity or otherwise ?
Mr. Pelley. He did.
Mr. Starnes. He did ?
]Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Starnes. Will you relate to the committee, please, in ^vhat
capacity he worked?
Mr. Pelley. He worked as an assistant to Mr. Kenneth D. Alex-
ander, who was recognized at that time as the California liaison man
to myself personally.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7265
Mr. Starnes. What was llie type of work that he d\d( W;itf he
iuerely a liaison agent between you and Alexander^
Ml'. 1*KLLF.Y. No. He was. you might say, moral su|)])oit fnr Mr.
Alexander.
Mr. Staknes. Did lie contribute any funds or did he aetiveiy ])ai-
tic'ipate in any cam[)aigii to raise funds from outside souive;^. lo assist
the Siher Legion in its program?
Mr. Pelley. Yes; he might have done so.
Mr. Starnes. Do you recall, approximate!}', now, how much he
raised^ I can understand you are testifying merely from recollec-
tion.
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Staknes. And you have the privilege of refreshing your recol-
lection from official records. Do you recall approximately the
amount of money that he might have raised and turned over to the
organization?
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Chairman, I don't recall that he ever raised a
cent.
Mr. Starnes. Well, do you recall whether or not you received con-
siderable financial support from outside sources in the State of Cali-
fornia and along the west coast where he was active?
Mr, Pelley. That means whether he had any participation in it
or not?
Mr. Starnes. Correct.
Mr. Pelley. Yes; I do.
Mr. Starnes. Can you give us an approximation of the amount
or amounts?
Mr. Pelley. That would entail — my answer would entail an esti-
mate of what the Silver Legion support was in California for that
year, for the year in wdiich Mr. Allen was associated with us, is that
correct ?
Mr. Starnes, How much would that be?
Mr. Pelley. I doubt, Mr. Chairman, if it would be over $^.000.
Mr. Starnes. You do not think it would be over $2,000 ?
Mr. Pelley. Not over that.
Mr, Starnes. How much in Oregon for that year, do you recall?
Mr. Pelley. No ; I do not, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Starnes. Or in Washington?
Mr. Pelley. No,
Mr. Starnes. In which of those three States did you have the
largest membership?
Mr. Pelley. In 1934. in the State of California.
Mr. Starnes. At the present time which has the laitier member-
ship?
Mr. Pelley. The State of Washington.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know George Detherage?
Mr. Pelley. I do, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Have you ever received any aid or support from hini
in a financial way or what, in common parlance, and you will undei--
stand what I mean when I say "in comm(m parlance, "in a mora! way
or sympathetic support?
Mr. Pelijey. I have, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Have you and he cooperated on any program or cf)n-
cert of action, politically or otherwise, in this country?
7266 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
. Mr. Pellet. I have not.
Mr. Starnes. Did he and the organization he represents or heads
ever assist you or your organization in promoting any of the phases
of the Silver Shirt program?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir. Let me qualify that. Beyond purchasing
literature from our headquarters on the same basis that anybody in
the United States would do.
Mr. VooRHis. M\ I ask a question at this point. Mr. Pelley,
have you sold ^ isiderable literature to the Ayrian Book Store in
Los Angele'" "
Mr. F^i^^j^Y. I believe we have, Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. Voorhis. Is that the official book store for the German-
American Bund?
Mr. Pellet. It may be, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. As a matter of fact haven't you sent quite a quantity
of literature there?
Mr, Pellet. I have, Mr. Voorhis, but on a strict sales basis because
they ordered it and paid for it.
Mr. Voorhis. I understand.
Mr. Starnes. Did Mr. Deatherage and his group ever furnish you
with any type of literature or propaganda for publications or bul-
letins that some groups call ''enlightenment"?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Getting back to the State of Washington, where
vou say vou have quite an active group at the present time. Do you
know Frank W. Clark?
Mr. Pellet, I do, sir,
Mr, Starnes, Is he connected or identified with your movement in
that State?
Mr. Pellet. He was until. I should say, about October 1, 1936.
Mr, Starnes, He is no longer identified with the movement in
anv way?
Mr. Pellet. He is not, sir. May I qualify that, with the exception
he has Silver Legion credentials which he has never surrendered.
Mr. Starnes, Then you are not prepared to state whether or not
he still represents himself as being a leader in the movement and
being active in the movement?
Mr. Pellet, Decidedly to the contrary. Mr, Clark has disassociated
himself with the movement and attempted a movement of his own,
called the ''Young Butfalos," whatever that may be,
Mr, Starnes, What is the name of it?
Mr. Pei^let, "Young Butfalos," whatever that may mean.
Mr, Starnes. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Starnes. Do you know Mr. J. H, Peyton ?
Mr, Pellet, No, sir,
Mr, Starnes, Do you know Charles B, Hudson ?
Mr, Pellet, No, sir; you mean personally as an acquaintance?
Mr, Starnes, Yes,
Mr. Pellet, No, sir,
Mr, Starnes. Do you know Mrs, Leslie Fry ?
Mr, Pellet No. sir; only by reputation in the newspapei-s,
Mr, Voorhis, Slie is no relation to the Mrs, Leslie mentioned in
your book?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7267
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know James True?
Mr. Pelley. I do, sir.
Mr. Starnes. Have you had auy connection with him in furthering
the Silver Shirt Legion program^
Mr. Pellet. Only to the extent that Mr. True has from time to
time in his industrial control repoits, very graciously publicized a
new item of publication which I. might bring out.
Mr. Starnes. In otlier words, in his report he has carried certain
items contributed by you througli your publication?
Mr. Pellet. Not contributed, Mr. Chairman. He has publicized
to his clientele ntnv numbers which I might issue.
Mr. Starnes. Well, I misunderstand you. I thought you said
you had contributed the articles.
Mr. Pellet. No. I never did that.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know Gerald B. Winrod?
Mr. Pellet. Only by reputation in the papers.
Mr. Starnes. Has Mr. True or his organization or his concern or
his associates ever contributed any money to the support of the
Silver Shirt Legion and its program?
Mr. Pellet. Only for such literature as they have bought on a
commercial basis and paid for at the end of 30 days.
Mr. Starnes. Will you furnish the committee the amounts that
they have purchased over the period of time that you have operated?
Mr. Pellet. I shall be delighted to do so.
Mr. VooRHis. ^lay I ask a question ?
Mr. Starnes. All right, Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. VooRHis. Have you sold considerable literature to Hugo Eger,
of Chicago, Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Hugo Eger is the Silver Shirt leader of Chicago
and I have sold liim a great amount of material.
Mr. VooRHis. Has he any connection with any other organization?
Mr. Pellet. Not that I know of.
Mr. VooRHis. You don't know of any connection he has with the
German-American Bund ?
Mr. Pellet. No, no; and I don't think it is true he has any con-
nection. In fact he has expressed from time to time a great hostility
for the German-American Bund.
Mr. VooRHis. Have you sold literature to the Germania Book
Store in Yorkville, N. Y.?
Mr. Pellet. No; not in Yorkville; it was in New York City.
Mr. VooRHis. In New York City?
Mr. Pellet. Right.
Mr. VooRHis. Germania Book Store?
Mr. Pfxlet. They have taken a large quantity of our material and
paid us cash for it on a commercial basis. No other connection.
Mr. Thomas. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Starnes. Yes, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Pelley, have you met with Mr. True any time
within the past year?
Mr. Pellet. I don't think so, Mr. Thomas. I have met him prior
to that but the past year I don't think so.
Mr. Thomas. You have met with him we will say within the past
year and a half?
7268 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. Yes, yes.
Mr. Thomas. Was that meeting in Washington?
Mr. Pellet. Yes. I went to spend — I went up one night for a
social call and dropped in on Mr. True and spent the evening.
Mr. Thomas. Have you known Mr. True for long?
Mr. Pellet. I have known Mr. True for, I should say, a period
of about 3 years.
Mr. Thomas. And how many times do you think you have met
with him in that period of 3 years?
Mr. Pellet. A half a dozen.
Mr. Thomas. A half a dozen times?
IMr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. All in Washington?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. And they have just been social calls?
Mr. Pellet. That is all.
Mr. Thomas. But you have discussed with him the possibility of
his organization and your organization joining up and becoming one,
haven't you?
Mr. Pellet. No ; because he had no organization.
Mr. Thomas. But you have got his moral support?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
]\'Ir. Thomas. And he has gotten yours?
Mr. Pellet. Right.
Mr. vStarnes. Have you ever sold any of your literature to Gerald
B. Winrod or any organization he is associated with?
Ml". Pellet. No, sir. Mr. Winrod is very hostile to the work I
am doing.
Mr. Starnes. Do you know Fritz Kuhn ?
Mr. Pei LET. I do.
Mr. Starnes. Have you ever sold Fritz Kuhn and his organiza-
tion any literature?
Mr. Pellet. What do you mean?
Mr. Starnes. That you publish.
Mr. Pellet. May I ask what you mean by "his organization"?
Do you mean the German Bund as an official organization?
Mr. Starnes. What I mean is have you ever sold to him, either to
him or to his organization, any of these publications that have been
identified here for the record, or other publications that we have not
yet been able to identify?
Mr. Pellet. That is kind of a difficult question, Mr. Chairman.
May I tell it in iny own words? I have only met Mr. Kuhn once in
my life, which was in Los Angeles. At that time we agreed to dis-
agree and have had no association since. What Mr. Kuhn's ramificii-
tions may be in an organizational way, I am not familiar with enough
to answer your cjuestion. I have sold the bulk of material which I
considered going to the German Bund through the Germania Book
Shop in New York City.
Mr. Starnes. At this point, gentleman, there is a roll call vote i?i
the House on a motion to recommit. That will probably take some
time; so, if it is agreeable to the committee, we will adjourn novv-,
subject to the call of the chairman.
The members of the committee will be given an opportunity to
question this witness at length on any matters pertinent to the inquiry
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7269
and for us long as they like. That goes for every member of the
committee.
Mr. Pelley, you will hold yourself available for the connnittee
at any hour tliat the Chair is ready to call the connnittee back in
session.
Mr. Pellet. I am here in Washington unril the connnittee wishes
to dismiss me.
Mr. Starxes. You understand you are under subi)ena and you
will make yourself available to the committee. You will leave your
address with the secretary so we can get you by telephone, or other-
wise, immediately when we need you.
Mr. Pellet. I will do that.
Mr. Starnes. Then the committee vail adjourn at this time, subject
to the call of the chairman.
(Whereupon at 2:45 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
INYESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 1939
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to In^-estigate Un- America isr AcTI\^TlES,
WashingtoTiM, D. G.
The committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., Hon. Joe Starnes (acting chair-
man) pi-esiding.
Present: Acting Chairman Joe Starnes; members of the com-
mittee, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas, Hon. John J. Dempsey, Hon. Jerry
Voorhis, and Hon. Joseph E. Casey.
Mr. Robert B. Barker, investigator for the committee.
Mr. Stripling, secretary of the committee.
The Acting Chairman. The committee will come to order.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM DUDLEY PELLEY— Kesmned
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Pelley, in certain questions that were
propounded to you during the course of your testimony earlier in the
week you were careful to distinguish between the sources of revenue
which you have received. You stated, if I recall correctly, you had
received certain revenue or contributions or financial support for the
v.ork of tlie Silver Legion.
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
The Acting Chairman. Tlien you stated that you had also received
financial contributions and financial support for your metaphysical
writings and work?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
The Acting Chairiman. ^Miat other activities have you engaged in
other than your legion activities and your metaphysical writings which
have been a source of income to you ?
Mr. Pellet. My publication of what might be called secular books.
I would not call such a book as the Door to Revelation metaphysical.
I call them secular writings.
Tlie Acting Chairman. What do you denominate metaphysical
writings of yours, then, or your publications?
jNIr. Pelm:t. You mean identifying items?
The Acting Chairman. Identifving books, yes; or particular books
by title.
]Mr. Pellet. Sucli a book as I quoted here the other day. Behold
Life — that would be considered a metaphysical book. I only distin-
guisli between tlie metaphysical because you emphasize that, meta-
physical and political economy, or meaning Silver Shirt Legion liter-
ature.
7271
7272 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Acting Chairman. Is there any connection between — let me
put it this vcny : Is there any connection, relation, or correlation be-
tween the groups or the persons who have sponsored sympathetically
and financially your legion program and those who have sponsored
sympathetically and financially your metaphysical writings and pro-
gram ?
Mr. Pellet. Connection? Well, Mr. Chairman, very frequently
the persons have done both.
The Acting Chairman. That is what I wanted to find out.
Mr. Pelley. Yes. And uniformly the metaphysical supporters
have been 100 percent behind my legion work, while the contrary is
not true. Everyone connected with the Silver Legion might not see
eye to eye Avith me on the esoteric writings.
The Acting Chairman. But you have found that those who see
eye to eye with you on your esoteric writings almost 100 percent
follow you and your program with the Silver Shirt Legion'^
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Now, which source of income has been
the greater to you, your esoteric writings or your Silver Shirt Legion
activtias?
Mr. Pellet. I would emphatically state, Mr. Chairman, that my
Silver Shirt writings have been a liability to me; that the source
of revenue of my publishing house has been the source of revenue
in the main for the Silver Shirt Legion activities.
In other words, Mr. Chairman, to put it in common language, I
make my money off legitimate, as I call it, esoteric writing and
secular })ublishing and use that money to make up any deficiencies
in the Silver Legion work, making thereby probably the largest
personal contributor to the Silver Legion work in the Nation.
May I add in connection with that, Mr. Chairman, my estimate
is that my esoteric and religious and secular publications constitute
practically 60 to 70 percent of the output of my publishing house,
the other 30 percent being mv so-called Silver Legion literature.
The Acting Chairman. What is the single largest contribution
that you recall having been made to the Silver Shirt Legion by any
individual or group?
Mr. Pellet. Let me understand you there. Will you give that
to me again ?
The Acting Chairman, Will the reporter read the question, please?
(The question was read.)
Mr. Pellet. I cannot recall any outstanding contributions of any
size, Mr. Chairman, strictly for Silver Legion work.
The Acting Chairman. Wliat is the largest single contribution
that you have received from an individual or group for your esoteric
writings ?
Mr. Pellet. You are speaking now — let me clarify that — you
are speaking now of contributions as separate and distinct from any
form of a negotiated loan?
The Acting Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Pellet. I believe I received at one time $1,000 from a lady
in Massachusetts. I think that is the outstanding one. I am relying
strictly on my memory any moment.
The Acting Chairman. Do you recall the lady's name?
Mr. Pellet. I do; sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7273
Tile Acting C'hairman. What is it?
Mr. Pellky. 1\Iis. Sara T. Scott, of Boston.
May I add to that, Mrs. Scott, liowever, has been interested in
aidin*; me with this Avork as a private charity of hers since 1930,
and that the Silver Le*rion work, or any of my literature along
Silver Li\iiion lines, has nothino" particularly to do with her con-
tributions. She is intei-ested in the esoteric phase of the work.
The Acting Chairman. Has she made more than one contribution
to you or to j'our or^ranization ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. "When did she make the last one?
Mr. Pellet. Sometime in January of this year. No; wait, I will
coi'rect that. December of last year.
The Acting Chairman. In what amount ?
Mr. Pellet. Approximately $1,200.
The Acting Chairman. How much has she contributed as a total ?
What is the a]:>proxiniate total she has contributed since 1030, I be-
lieve you said it was, when her contribution started ?
Mr. Pellet. I would say Mrs. Scott's contribution over a period of
8 years has approximated $1,000 a year. Mr. Chairman, that money
lias been given to me personally to use as I saw fit in any branch of the
work.
The Acting Chairman. I see. Now, has there been an interchange
of entity of funds between the Silver Shirt Legion activities and your
esoteric writings and activities?
Mr. Pellet. Please exj^lain what you mean by "an interchange of
funds"?
The Acting Chairman. You individually head the Silver Shirt
Legion ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. You are its founder ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. And its directing genius?
Mr. Pellet. Well, I wouldn't say that.
The Acting Chairman. You are the head of your publications, as
you stated in your prior testimony.
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
The Acting Chairman. And your publications, or your publishing
cornpany, have handled for you or published for you your esoteric
writings ?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
The Acting Chairman. Now, I might say
Mr. Pellet. I want to make myself clear.
The Acting Chairman. Your money comes in to you — the money
comes in to you from various sources to be used by you as you see fit"?
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Tlie Acting Chairman. To be applied either to the Silver Shirt
Legion work or to your esoteric work?
Air. Pellet. Correct.
The Acting Chairman. Now, is there an interchangeability of funds
as between those two? In otlier words, when you receive the money
you have the right and the authoritv to the manner in which you re-
ceive the money, to apply it either way ?
Mr. Pelley. That is correct, Mr. Cliairman.
7274 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Tlie Acting Chairman. And yoii took money from your esoteric
writings to support the Silver Sliii't Legion program at times?
Mr. Pellet. No, Mr. Chairman. Let me please get this technically
correct. That is not quite right.
The Acting Chairman. That is what I understood you to say a
moment ago.
Mr. Pelley. I want to correct that because that creates a false im-
pression.
The Acting Chairman. Just a moment. You testified this morning
that your Silver Shirt Legion activities and publications and programs
had been a liability; that it had been supported by your esoteric
writings.
Mr. Pelley. By my publications ?
The Acting Chairman. And that is the reason I am asking you if
you don't have an interchangeability of funds ?
Mr. Pelley. But Mr. Chairman, maybe in answer
The Acting Chairman. Is that true ? Wait a minute. Is that true ?
And then you can make your explanation. You do have an inter-
change of funds between the two organizations?
Mr. Pelley. On that understanding ; yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Now, you can make whatever qualifying
statement you wish.
Mr. Pelley. I make this qualifying statement : That there is prac-
tically no expense attached, Mr. Chairman, to the conduct of the Silver
Legion, not having any paid officers, not having any staff of any size.
The only expenses connected with it would be my personal expenses
in traveling about in personal-contact work.
The big bulk of what I am doing is a publishing enterprise which
publishes both the esoteric and the Silver Legion literature.
When people make donations to the Silver Legion they are entitled
to receive, and I think has been almost universally so, the amount of
their contribution in publications.
Now, may I at this time qualify my statement about this largest
contributor ?
The Acting Chairman, About what ?
Mr. Pelley. About the largest contributor.
The Acting Chairman. About Mrs. Scott ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. What section of Massachusetts is she from ?
Did you say? Did you give us that information a moment ago — the
city ?
Mr. Pelley. Boston,
The Acting Chairman, She is from Boston ?
Mr. Pelley, Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman, You say she has contributed approximately
on an average of $1,000 a year since 1930 to your activities?
Mr. Pelley. I would say, sir, but I want to qualify that because my
memory has just helped me out here. There has been, or there was in
1932, a lady by the name of Marie Ogden, of Newark, N. J., who very
graciously at one time presented one of my men with $12,000 worth
of re<al-estate bonds, with the understanding that I was to hypothecate
them and use the proceeds in the work.
UN-AMERia\N PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7275
I found out over a period of time that they were not negotiable. I
mean by that that there was no market for them. There was no change
for their h^^potheoation for anytliing like they were worth.
Those bonds Avere retained in my office, I should say, for a period
of 60 days after I found that out, and went out of my possession in a
very pecidiar manuer, by being used as a pledge for an unpaid printing
bill at the time, when a ])rinting salesman persuaded the office girl to
let him have the bonds for security of the printing bill, and I never
saw the bonds after that and had to negotiate myself out of that
temporar}- scrape.
Mrs. Ogden latei-, in a long telegram to me, and followed by a letter
sent to Atlanta, Ga., where I was lecturing at the time, absolved me
from any ulterior use of the money and stated she understood what
happened and that the bonds and proceeds were consigned and were
mine thereafter.
That, perhaps
The Acting Chairjian. So Mrs. Scott
Mr. Pelley. May I just finish^ I got the amount of the printing
bill from those bonds to the figure of, I think it was $3,500, so that
supersedes Mrs. Scott's contribution in that instance.
The Acting Chairman. In other words, Mrs. Ogden, instead of Mrs.
Scott, was the largest single contributor to your movement?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Now, then, have you, as leader of the Silver
Shirt Legion, or as the head of your publications, and as the chief
author and finisher of your works in the esoteric field, negotiated any
loans of any considerable amounts from individuals, banks, or groups?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir; I have.
The Acting Chairman. What is the largest loan that you have nego-
tiated in that connection ?
Mr. Pelley. I would say $5,000.
The Acting Chairman. $5,000. Was that negotiated with an indi-
vidual or a bank?
Mr. Pelley. An individual.
The AcTiNNG Chairman. Who was the individual ?
Mr. Pelley. Dr. John K. Brinkley, of Del Rio, Tex.
The Acting Chairman. Is that* the radio artist and eoat-o-land
artist? ^ ^
Mr. Pelley. Wait a minute; my memory
The Acting Chairman. Was that applied to the Silver Shirt work
or to the esoteric work ?
Mr. Pelley. ]\fr. Chairman, might I, just for my own protection-
The Acting Chairman. We will give you a chance to make your
quahfynig statement, but I want to know— I want to have a cateoori-
cal reply as to whether or not the proceeds of the loan were applied
to the Silver Shirt Legion activities or to your esoteric field «
_ Mr. Pelley. To my publishing activities". It was to cover a deficit
m my pubhshmg activities for that year.
The Acting Chairman. By the way, has Dr. Brinkley been identi-
fied with the Silver Shirt Legion in any way ?
Mr. Pelley. Xever.
The Acting Chairman. Is he a member?
Ml-. Pelley. Xo. sir.
The Acting Chairman. Is lie a sympathizer?
7276 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. I would assume so.
The Acting Chairman. You have had numerous conferences with
him ?
]Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir — no; no| I haven't. I have only met Dr.
Brinkley, I think, about three or four times in my life.
The Acting Chairman. Does he hold the same views you do with
reference to certain questions?
Mr. Pelley. I would assume so. Now, may I qualify a previous
statement?
The Acting Chairman. All right.
Mr. Pelley. For the record?
The Acting Chairman. All right.
Mr. Pelley. Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, you asked me a few
minutes ago who had been my largest contributor to either branch
of the work since I started business ?
The Acting Chairman. That is right.
Mr. Pelley. Well, please let me — there was a confusion in my mind
at the time I answered your question. The largest contributor would
be Mr. George B. Fisher.
The Acting Chahjman. Who is Mr. Fisher?
Mr. Pelley. He is an ex-executive, or he was an executive, of the
Crowell Publishing Co., New York City.
The Acting Chairman. What was his contribution?
Mr. Pelley. I would imagine that over a period of — let me see ; I
have known Mr. Fislier, I think, about 4 years. He has supplied
something like $20,000 to my work. It was so glaring that for the
moment I did not see him, Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. When did you negotiate the loan with Dr.
Brinkley ?
Mr. Pelley. I believe it was in — I arranged for it — I saw him first
in the Waldorf Hotel in September of 1938, early September. I
believe the date was the 8th.
The Acting Chairman. Of what year ?
Mr. Pelley. 1938.
The Acting Chairman. And when was the deal finally consum-
mated and the proceeds turned over to you ?
Mr. Pelley. I should say a matter of 2 weeks later the money was
paid me in North Carolina.
The Acting Chairman. By check, by draft, or by cash?
Mr. Pelley. By cash.
The Acting Chairman. Has the loan since been repaid?
Mr. Pelley. No. I am still owing it. I gave him my note, and he
is still holding it, and I expect to pay it — have to pay it.
The Acting Chairman. In other words, you contend that it is a
bona fide loan and you consider yourself legally bound to repay it?
Mr. Pelley. I do, sir. That is not true in regaixl
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Dempsey, of New Mexico, has a ques-
tion he would like to ask you.
Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Pelley, do you know Fritz Kuhn ?
Mr. Pelley. I can't say I know the gentleman, Mr. Dempsey. I
met him on one occasion.
Mr. Dempsey. When was that ?
Mr. Pelley. That was in June of 1936, in Los Angeles. Calif,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7277
Mr. DEMPSEi'. Did he have any proposition with reference to com-
bining your or<>anization with his?
Mr. Pfxley. He did, sir.
Mr, Dempsey. What was the proposition?
Mr, Pelley. Mr. Alexander, my California liaison man at that
time, when I was in Los Angeles, told me one afternoon that Mr. Kuhn
wished to see me. An interview was arranged. I met the gentleman
that evening in the Lankerslieim Building in Los Angeles, He came
in accompanied by Mr, Swinn, of the German House, so-called in
Los Angeles, He gave me the Nazi salute, which rather amused me.
We sat down and talked American political and financial conditions
for a few minutes, and out of the gist of the conversation in the
ensuing hour the suggestion was made to me — at least, I took it as
such from the tenor of the conversation — that the German Bund
become absorbed into the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Dempsey. Had he ever received any of your literature?
Mr. Pelley. He couldn't have helped it, Mr. Dempsey, because it
was bought in large quantities by the German House there in Los
Angeles.
Mr. Dempsey. And he believed because of your writings that you
would be in sympathy with such a proposition, naturally?
Mv. Pelley. I could not say wdiat he believed, but that was the
implication.
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Thomas of New Jersey has some ques-
tions.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Pelley, since the inception of the Silver Shirts,
what banks have you personally had a line of credit with, or any
affiliated companies that the publishing company has had a line of
credit with? And bj' "line of credit" I mean a regular running line,
Mr. Pelley. I never had such a thing that I recall, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. Haven't you borrowed any money from banks?
Mr, Pelley, No, sir,
Mr. Thomas. Haven't any of your companies borrow^ed money from
banks ?
Mr. Pelley. I can't recall it at this moment.
Mr. Thomas, In other words, then, you claim that neither you, nor
the Silver Legion, nor your publishing company have ever borrowed
anything from banks?
Mr. Pelley. I don't recall any this moment, Mr. Thomas. If I do,
1 will inform you.
Mr. Thomas. Tliat is all, Mr, Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. How many books of an esoteric nature have
you written?
Mr. Pelley. What do you describe as a '"book," may I ask, Mr.
Cliairman?
The Acting Cilvirman. Well, let us put it this way: How many
articles or pamphlets or books have you written? Give us as much
information as you can along that line.
(No answer.)
The Acting Chairman. Name some of Avhat you consider your out-
standing contributions to that field.
Mr, Pelley. The volume Behold Life, Thinking Alive. Something-
like 130 so-called scripts, which are 24- to 48-page brochures in printed
form in covers.
7278 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Acting Chairman. And I believe you stated a moment ago that
ilie largest income that you had received, the largest contributions that
had been made to you, and the largest loans that had been negotiated
by you were in what you might term your esoteric field ?
Mr. Pelley. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. May I add, too, you
asked me about books ; that threw me off for a moment. I also publish
an esoteric magazine.
The Acting Chairman. What is the name of that magazine?
Mr. Pellet. Reality.
The Acting Chairman. It is published how often ?
Mr. Pellet. Monthly.
The Acting Chairman. And published at Asheville ?
Mr. Pellet. Now, I cannot say, Mr. Chairman
The Acting Chairman. Have you ever published any of Dr. Brink-
ley's writings, or essaj^s, or works ?
Mr. Pellet. We did one job for Dr. Brinkley as a straight printing
job, because he liked the way we turned out work, for which he paid us
] printing jjrices for manufacturing the items, and that was all.
Now, Mr. Chairman
The Acting Chairman. Do you know whether or not, Mr. Pel ley.
Dr. Brinkley is the head of any sort of an organization that carries on
any propaganda work in this country, or if you are confused by the
term "propaganda," carries on a program of so-called enlightenment
among the people of this country ?
Mr. Pellet. That — not that I know, sir.
The Acting Chairman. The reason that I place my question in such
a manner — and it seems to amuse you — is that some witnesses w^ho have
headed some of these organizations object to the term "propaganda"
as being applied to their activities.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
The AciTNG Chairman. Tliey term it "a program of enlightenment,"
and I just wanted to place it in the alternative so you would have no
difficulty or embarrassment in answering.
Mr. Pellet. I have no knowledge of any such organization or move-
ment.
The Acting Chairman. By the way, did you know the head of the
Black Shirt Legion, or group, that operated for a time quite exten-
sively in the State of Michigan?
Mr. Pellet. No. sir.
The Acting Chairman. Did you ever have any connection with this
group whatsoever ?
Mr. Pellet. None wliatever.
The Acting Chairman. Hold any meetings with any of its members
or its officers ?
Mr. Pellet. No. sir ; that I was aware of.
The Acting Chair^nian. Did you ever have any agreement on concert
of action or correlation of activities between the Silver Legion and the
Black Shirt group?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
The Acting Chairman. When did you last travel abroad?
Mr. Pellet. In the very early part of 1918.
The Acting Chairman. You hiiven't ])eeii fdn-oad since that time?
Mr. Pellet. No. sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7279
The Acting Chairman. Have you iruvcled in C'inuula since that
time (
Mr. Peixey. No, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Where >vere von m Utl8: \A here did
vou CO?
■ Mr. Pelley. I was sent by the Meth(»dist Seminary to the Orient to
make a survey of Protestant foreiirn missions for the Methodist Church.
Tlie Acting Chairman. Was that in China or Japan, or both ^
:Mr. Pelley. Mv itinerary was supposed to cover the entire Orient
from Japan through to India and the Holy Land, but v. hen I reached,
finished mv job in Japan, the Siberian intervention— we were in the
war. the Siberian intervention Avas decided upon, and I g'or into khaki
and went up into Siberia and Russia as a re]n-esentative of the inter-
national Y. M. C. A. And I traveled in Siberia and Russia during
the height of the Communist introduction into that cotnitry. and
bronffht out or convoyed many curriers because of the rank of first
lieutenant that I had "in that capacity as red triangle secretary. That
was my first introduction to communism. I saw it come in and that is
where I got my first animus against sucii a movement.
The Acting Chairman. You made no otlier visits abroad f
]Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
Tlie Acting Chairman. Did yon travel under a passport at that
time ^
]\Ir. Pelley. I did. sir. It was signed by Secretary Lansing.
The Acting Chairman. Do you still have that passport?
]Mr. Pp:lley. No, sir. It was surrendered in San Francisco wlien I
came back after the war was ended.
The Acting Chairman. Did I ask you a moment ago wliether you
had visited Canada during the past 10 years ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. You have visited Canada?
Mr. Pelley. No. Yon asked me the question.
The Acting Chairman. And your answer was "no"?
Mr. Pelley. Yes; I have not been out of the United States, with the
exception of one evening when I visited Dr. Brinldey in purely a social
way. He invited me over to see his big radio station across the Rio
Grande in Mexico. I spent an hour there and came back, and that is
the only — that is the extent of my sojourn out of the country.
The Acting Chairman. Did yon write a book in which yon described
a vision of yours in which you claim to liave had 7 minutes' visit to
heaven ?
Mr. Pelley. That isn't exactly tlie rigiit Avay to put it. Mr. Chair-
man, please. Heaven isn't the scene of the work itself. I wrote an
article for the American Magazine which Mas the lead article for the
March issue, 1929, called ^Nly Seven Minutes in Eternity, wliicli was a
semireligious article explaining a metaphysical experience of mine in
my California home in 1928, the year previously.
Does that answer your question ?
The Acting Chairman. Yes; that is what I wanted to know.
;Mr. Pelley. However. Mr. Chairman. 1 would like to register a
friendly stipulation
The Acting Chairman. Well, we don't care anything about that.
^Ir. Pelley. But it is apropos of your question.
94931 — 40— vol. 12 6
7280 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Acting Chairman. I just merely asked you that. I wanted to
oot tliat clear for the record.
Now, in that experience of yours you passed away from this
sphere ?
Mr. Peixey. No ; I never said that.
The Acting Chairman. Did you do that?
Mr. Pklley. I never said that.
The Acting Chairman. You didn't expire, die, pass out, or any-
thing- like that?
Mv. Pellet, No.
The Acting Chairman. But you do claim to have had an experi-
ence which did transport you and give you certain visions?
Mr. Pellet. I call it what we call a hypo-dimensional experience.
It is a rather involved esoteric term.
The Acting Chairman. I am afraid you mitjht have to give me
some sort of a friendly interpretation of that term.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to suggest that Mr. Pelley be given the
opportunity to describe these 7 minutes; not take 7 minutes to de-
sciibe it, but describe in some detail, very briefly, these 7 minutes.
I think it would be very interesting.
The Acting Chairman. Has that book been attached as an exhibit
to the record?
Mr. Pellet. No ; I don't think it has. But really I would protest
that that is not an un-American activity.
Tlie Acting Chairman. I was going to make the same suggestion.
I don't want to go too far afield.
^Ir. Pelley. Furthermore, I will be delighted to give Mr. Thomas
the book and let him read it.
Mr. Thomas. I will withdraw the suggestion.
The Acting Chairman. The only idea I had in mind in asking
these questions was because of the undoubted correlation, exchange
and interchange, appai-ently from all the testimony, between your
Silver Shirt Legion and your esoteric work. That is the only reason
I am asking that.
Mr. Pelley. Well, we might ]3ut it this way: The growth of the
Silver Legion was out of the esoteric work.
The Acting Chairman, Not knowing what Seven Minutes in Eter-
nity is, I am not qualified to state whether or not it would be un-
American or subversive.
Mr. Thomas. I will withdraw the suggestion.
Mr. Casey. Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. All right ; Mr. Casey of Massachusetts.
Mr. Casey. Was that 7 minutes in eternity something premeditated
by you or something that just came over you involuntarily?
]SIr. Pellea'. Mr. Casey, that was the most — one of the outstanding
experiences of my life, of lying down to sleep in my bungalow in
Altadena one night, and finding my consciousness, as we say in our
work, detached from mv physical body and for 6 months after telling
that experience in the office of the American magazine, the editors
begged me to write it up. I didn't want to do it. It was a religious
experience.
The Acting Chairman. You did wiite it up?
Mr. Pelley. And finally they prevailed upon me to write it up
and I discovered — and I might say that that was the begimiing and
UN-AMEinCAN I'ltoI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7281
tlie basis of the l:ii<re iiicivasf tluit <>ro\v in luy work because we had
a mail like LiiKlber;L'-h"s in the American Magazine office as a result
of it. .....
The Acting Chairman. How much did you i-eceive tor writing up
that experience ?
Mr. Pelley. 1 received my regular stipend tor work that I was
doing the American at that tiine because I was on the staff at $1,500.
rii(- AriiNo Chairman. How much did it amount to?
Mr. Peijjiy. $1,500.
The Acting Chairman. Now, that house in California where you
went through this experience, does that still belong to you?
Mr. Pelley. No. sir. I relinquished that in 1929.
The Acting Chairman. That was sold?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. To whom?
Mr. Pelley. You mean did I sell it?
The Acting Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. It was not sold on that basis. It was a foreclosure.
The Acting Chairman. A foreclosure, but at one time in some of
your magazines at least, there appeared an advertisement with a pic-
ture of this house (
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir.
The Acting Chairman. And a statement saying that the house
would u.ndoubtedly be enhanced in value by virtue of you having
undergone these 7 minutes in eternity ?
Mr. Pelley. I would say decidedly so.
The Acting Chairman.^ But you now say the house suffered a mort-
gage foreclosure ?
Mr. Pelley. That isn't a true picture. The mere fact that I wrote
that in a magazine and was published and 2,000,000 copies were sold
and had such a terrific interest throughout the Nation, has made the
house particularly notable, and for that reason it was nonprofit in my
pocket, because tliat was relinquished almost the same month the maga-
zine published the article.
The Acting Chairman. Was there a mortgage foreclosure on the
house?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir. I relinquished my work in California and
came to New York and liquidated all my atfairs in California the best
I could at tliat time, in order to come to New York to engage in this
work, and it v.as relinquished to a first mortgage.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a question.
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Voorhis of California wishes to ask a
question.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Pelley, yesterday I believe in answer to a ques-
tion you said that the term "militia" as applied to your organization
was faulty terminology and that you no longer used terms of that kind.
Now. I have hei'e the liandbook One Million Silver Shirts By 1939,
and I notice in here Mr. Zacliary is still called field marshal and that
you have what you call county posts and vigilante encampments.
Aren't those essentially military terms?
Ml'. Pelley. They are essentially military terms as I explained yes-
terday, but tlie term "militia." as I discussed it with Mr. Mason, would
imply, pei-haps. a certain type of force or violence, Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. Voorhis. I believe that.
7282 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. May I finish ? Here is something that perhaps would
have a very great bearing on tlie line of questions that would go to
tlie edification of the committee.
The Acting Chairman. Well, be responsive.
Mr. Pellet. It ans%vers something that Mr. Voorhis
The Acting Chairman. The committee is after testimony and not
edification. I doubt if the witness could edify this committee.
Mr. Pellet. Well, Mr. Staines
Mr. VooRHis. Just a minute. Mr. Pelley. In this booklet it says:
"When demonstration of orderly manpower are essential to warn the
subversive elements." That is just one sentence. And then you have
such phraseology as "sectional vigilence," and yesterday you said, in
answer to a question, that you believed — and I think I took it down
correctly — tluit you wanted "a group of men to come together aggres-
sively to uphold a principle."
Now, how many such groups could a country safely have operating
at the same time in it without undermining constitutional govern-
ment ?
Mr. Pellet. W^ell, I have tried to make it clear to this committee
that my conception of the whole Silver Legion movement was predi-
cated and premised on the fact that constitutional government might
in time be overthrown, but I want — I would like to show this com-
mittee the certificate of dissolution of the Silver Legion right here.
The Acting Chairman. Make your answers responsive to the ques-
tions.
Mr. Voorhis. Now, Mr. Pelley, in here there is a section which says :
"What does Silver Shirts propose to accomplish?" and one of the
sections in that states :
I propose to treat personally with John L. Lewis, Robert M. La FoUette, and
Sanuiel Dicksteiu. as three treasonable and surreptitious disrupters of a free
republic, to deal with them as common enemies of constitutionalism, to arrest
them as soon as possible with Silver Shirt backing, and after presenting due
evidence of their traitorous activities to a Silver Shirt jury, to confine them
upon conviction in a Federal penitentiary for the remainder of their lives.
I shall further effect such legislative measures as may automatically confine
thenv in the said penitentiaries whosoever shall interest himself in their liberation
or work for their release upon any premise.
Now, I can understand how these gentlemen may disagree w-ith
you, or you with them, about your political or economic view^s, but, so
far as I know, none of them has committed a crime, and I cannot
understand how you would propose as President, or leader of the
Nation, if you should be, to do a thing like that.
Mr. Pelley. Because I consider those gentlemen have engaged in
communistic activities and communistic attempts to undermine our
Government and make our economic plight worse at the i^resent time,
but that evidence is not allowable in this court or committee.
Mr. VooRHis. Well, I don't think any such evidence could be pre-
sented.
Mr. Pellet. That is a matter of opinion, Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. VooRHis. Would there be any other j^eople who might be added
to that list, Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Pellet. Decidedly.
Mr. VooRHis. Y<ni Avouldn't possibly consider anybody here at the
table as l)eing eligible to be added to that list ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7283
Mr. Pellet. I don't sec liow 1 could after the affection I have tried
to manifest for this committee.
The Acting Chairman. I want to state again tlie committee is not
interested in the atfeotions of the witness.
Mr. VoiiRHis. Well, tiiat is all right.
The Acting Chairman. And I wish that the members of the com-
mittee would confine their questions to un-American and subversive
activities.
Mr. VeK)RHis. I think this is a most significant statement, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Acting Chairman. I nnist repeat again, as chairman of the
connnittee that I am not concerned in the affections of the witness nor
in the opinions of the witness about people in public life and public
character, and I regret exceedingly that the gentleman has brought in
the names of some of the leading public officials of this Republic of
ours in this connection.
Mr. Casey. Well, Mr. Chairman
'9
Mr. Voorhis. Well. Mr. Chairman, just a miiuite. The gentle-
man
The Acting Chairman. You have asked the question. It is in the
record. Proceed.
Mr. Voorhis. I did not bring the names of those gentlemen in for
any reason other than to show what Mr. Pelley proposed to do,
Tiie Acting Chairman, The gentleman from California knows that
the committee has been criticized, and he has been one of those who
criticized it, about permitting witnesses to make statements on the
stand here before this committee which would impugn the motives of
leading American citizens and vrould classify them as Communists
and would tend to discredit those people in the eyes of the American
people. That is the reason the Cliair is insisting that that be stopped.
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Chairman, that was a passing question.
The Acting Chairman. The Chair insists thai this committee not
be made a sounding board to attack any American citizen.
Mr. Voorhis. Well. I accept the riomination, Mr. Chairman, as being
a person who is trying to drag these names dowii. but I am not, and I
think the cliairman knows perfectly well I am not.
Now, Mr. Pelley, I want to ask you another (question. It says here
in this same booklet that I was asking you questions about before :
I propo.se to effect the fullest and friendliest luiderstanding in international
relationships with all rightist and anticomminiistic nations abroad — particularly
Germany. Austria, Italy, Spain, and Japan — with Mexico and Canada added if
so be it their governments become dominated by similarly anti-Jewish and anti-
communistic groups, while at no time purporting to copy any dictatorial systems
of so-called Fascist governments.
Now. I have no quarrel with that, but why don't you say that you
propose to effect the kindliest understanding with ''all democratic
nations" ?
^Ir. Pellet. Because I do not believe in this much-touted democ-
racy when our country is a republic, Mr. Voorhis. Democracy means
"rule of the mob,*' Demos. It was not used in our original set-up
bv the Founding Fathers.
]Mr. Voorhis, As I understand it, today we mean — at least I mean
by constitutional democracy a government of the people, by the people,
and for the people, under the terms of our democracy, but if you mean
something else, it would be hard for us to get together.
7284 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. I don't mean something else. I mean that, too. But
democracy is not the term to apply to that.
Mr. VooRHis. There is also a proposal in here where you propose to
make —
Improvideut colored people south of the Mason and Dixon line wards of the
Republic.
I wonder what you mean by that?
Mr. Pelley. Very much the same care that is expended on them
ihat is gfiven to the Indians of our reservations. I believe that is
stated in there.
yiv. VooRHis. No. It says that the Indians should not be so
treated : tliat they should be emancipated and should not be treated
any longer, I think, as wards, and I wondered what you meant.
What does that term imply: "Wards of the Government"?
Mr. Peli^ey. Well, the only case I can draw. Mr. Voorhis, as I say,
is the status of the North American Indians since 1800.
Mr. Voorhis. Would you subscribe without reservation to the prin-
ciples of the Declaration of Indej)endence that all men are created
equal and endowed by their Greater with certain inalienable rijihts
in the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
Mr. Pelley. I do.
Mr. Voorhis. You subscribe to that without exception?
jNfr. Pelley. Yes; in the sense in which the foundino- fathers used
the term. I mean not quibbling over terms.
Mr. Voorhis. You mean you would apply it to all races and groups
of people and all religions?
Mr. Pelley. But, Mr. Voorhis, with this exception : I would not
say that that entitles Chinese, Orientals, Chinese, to come in here and
enjoy the same privileges in the United States, and I think other
races, too. would fall in that same category.
Mr. Voorhis. Now. on page 28 in this book. I read this :
On the other hand, there may be hundreds, and perhaps thousands, or men
who are not in an economic ix>sition to come out openly and fearlessly ast
members of a public post. They are no less good Silver Shirts, but for entirely
legitimate reasons of their own they may not be able to apijear as Silver
Shirts until the great crisis has been precipitated and the rightist forces of
this Nation may need manpower.
Do you have many secret members in the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Pelley. We have no secret members, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. You haven't?
Mv. Pelley. I am talking about the 75,000 more supporters that
I referred to the other day in answering a question by the Chairman.
]Mr. Voorhis. With a view to gathering together the rightist
forces ?
Mr. Pelley. Tlie gathering together of forces to uphold rightist
principles.
Mr. Voorhis. As opposed to leftist principles?
Mr. Pelley. Correct; yes, sir.
Mr. VooRiHS. And would you say that you would divide the Nation
down the middle as between those two groups?
Mr. Pellet. I think they have already divided the Nation into two
groups, ]\Ii'. Vooi'his.
jNIi'. Voor.His. T hope not, Mr. Pelley. And I think that is the
purpose of this committee, to prevent that very thing from happening.
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7285
Now, here is somethinj;-
Mr. Thomas. ]Mr. Chairnmn.
The AcnNG Chairman. Mr. Tliomas.
Mr. Thomas. 1 take exception to that remark of Mr. Voorhis.
The ])iirpose of this coiiiniittee is only to investigate un-American
activities and un-American propajianda.
Mr. VooRins. That is riii'ht.
Mr. Thomas. AVe have no other pur])ose.
Mr. Voorhis. But I believe by invest ifiating the Communists on
the one hand and the Xazis and Fascists on the other, Mr. Thomas —
that if you can reduce the iuHuence of both of those groups, that you
thereby will prevent a possible division of the Nation.
Mr. Thomas. If that is what you mean it is all right, but, after
all, we have got only one purpose.
Tlie AciiNG Chairman. And that is to investigate un-American
;ind subversive activities.
Mr. Thomas. Yes,
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Pelley, it asks in this little booklet, it says, "The
Legion will support itself by a series of pledges," and it asks that
people pa}^ not less than 10 cents per week for the organization's
national upkeep. I just wondered how successful that had been.
INIr. Pellet. The revenue from that source has been almost negli-
gible, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. It has?
Mr. Pei.ley. Yes; may I add, Mr. Voorhis, I say the booklet from
which you are quoting and asking me these questions seems to imply
that it is a continuing program.
Mr. Voorhis. Well, it was published in 1939, Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Pelley. But in 1940 I am contemplating dissolution of the
Silver Legion, so I wouldn't want the committee
Mr. Deivipsey. We are not concerned with what you are going to
do; we are concerned with these writings — not about your future
intents. We want to find out about these.
]VIr. Pelley. What I have done?
Mr. Dempsey. That is right.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Pelley, have j^ou employed confidential inform-
ants here in Washington?
Mr. Pelley. Did I do what, sir?
Mr. Voorhis. Have you employed people in Washington to give
you confidential information?
Mr. Pelley. I have, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Of what was going on? In what kind of informa-
tion were you interested in that connection?
Mr. Pelley. That is a difficult question to answer. Any informa-
tion that would make a good story in which my readers would be
particular!}" interested.
Mr. Voorhis. Did you employ people in California for that same
purpose ?
jNlr. Pelley. No, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Have you ever contacted a man by the name of Din-
nelly ?
IVir. Pelley. What was the question?
INIr. Voorhis. Did you ever contact Mr. Dinnelly either directly
yourself or through a third party?
7286 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. You haven't?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir; that is a gentleman from San Francisco you
are talking about?
Mr. VooRHis. Yes.
Mr. Pellet. My information on that, sir, is that he appeared in
my Asheville plant, I think in 1938, and solicited an interview. I
was not there. Afterwards he came through to Washington and
spent some time with my attorney here.
Mr. VooRHis. I see.
Mr. Pellet. The nature of what they said I don't know, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. I see. You don't know what the connection between
his work and yours might be?
Mr. Pellet. There is no connection.
Mr. VooRHis. Has there ever been any connection between you, Mr.
Pelley, and your organization, and any of the other groups that have
thoughts along similar lines?
Mr. Pellet. Never a connection, Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. Voorhis. There have been attempts, however, have there not, on
the part of some other groups to effect a union with you ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. From time to time?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Hasn't that been true of a good many of these other
groups ?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Voorhis. Hasn't it?
Mr. Pellet. No; because I just told you about Mr. Kuhn's group.
Mr, Voorhis. Yes; I know'; but hasn't Mr. Deatherage approached
you w^ith that idea in view?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
^Ir. Voorhis. Never did?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Voorhis. When they formed the American National Confed-
eration. I think it was called, they did not invite you to join with that
movement ?
Mr. Pellet. I think an invitation came to New York to confer with
it, which I merely acknowledged and said I wasn't interested.
Mr. Voorhis. Was there any particular reason why you did not want
to join these other groups?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir; })pcause I could not, I will say, jeopardize
people that believed in a distinct set of principles with the influences
and supervision of others who might have rightly or differ as to details
or even as to essence. I was responsible for the teachings that I had
put out. and I wanted no ulterior influence to come in there and
change them in the slightest.
Mr. Voorhis. I see. Nov,% Mr. Pelley, I want to ask you a question,
and if the rest of the mem}>ers on the connnittee don't want it to be
answei-ed. they can strike it from tlie record before you answer it, but
I would like to finish my question before that happens.
In this book called Cripple's Money I read you just one sentence.
It says:
Has Mr, Iioos(n'elt, or does Mr. Roosevelt, profit from the ball reveiiue.s in the
main? That he tloe,s not, hut that the Georgia Warm Springs Foundation does
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7287
not, either — at least to any such extent as the iiuhlic has been led to suppose— is
the conclusion to be drawn from most of these reliable evidence to date.
Now, my question is you make that statement yourself in your little
booklet, Mr. Pellev, and vet vou put this thin^ [referring to an issue
of Liberation dated Asheville. N. C, April 7, 1939] on the front of
vour })aper.
Now, I want to know whether you don't think that is a pretty
scurrilous thino- to do?
The Acting Chairman. Now, the Chair will have to a<iain make the
ruling it made in the be<rinning, that if such statements are true
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Pelley says
Tlie Acting CnAiRaiAN. Just a moment. The Chair is attempting
to make a statement here and a ruling.
Mv. YooRHis. I beg your pardon.
The Acting Chairman. The Chair wishes again to repeat what he
has said heretofore concerning questions that he deems improper. If
this witness or any other persons made such a statement the Chair
would not believe it. He w^ould think it was contemptible and untrue.
In addition, it has absolutely no bearing on the questions before the
committee. The Chair's ruling is based u]wn that fact. It has abso-
lutely no bearing upon un-American and subversive activities.
Mr. VooRHis. Well, Mr. Chairman
The Acting Chairman. Wait a minute. If that is true it would bor-
der upon defamation of character or criminal libel, but certainly it
charges no one with un-American or subversive activities or seeking to
undermine or overthrow the form of this Govenmient.
The Chair further states that if the witness did make the statement
and he was asked by this committee concerning it, it gives the witness
an opportunity to make an answer which would be a personal attack
upon the President of the United States, and I certainly will rule the
question and answer as being improper.
Mr. VooRHis. All right, you have made your ruling.
The Acting Chairman. Wait a minute. I will ask the gentleman
to conduct himself in an orderly manner. If he wishes to take an
appeal from the decision of the Chair he is at liberty to do so in an
open meeting, but I must insist, gentlemen of the committee, that ques-
tions not be directed to this witness, who is a hostile witness insofar
as these matters are concerned, giving him an opportunity to use this
committee as a sounding board for an attack upon the President in a
pei*sonal manner or upon any other officer or citizen of this country.
Therefore, I instruct you, Mr. Witness, not to reply to that question,
and I will rule the question improper and will exclude it from the
lecord and will give the gentleman from California an opportunity
to appeal from the decision of the Chair if he so desires.
Mr. VooRHis. My question simply is
The Acting Chairman. Well, that is all.
Mr. Voorhis. I want to make a brief statement, Mr. Chairman. I
think that is in order.
The Acting Chairman. If you want to take an appeal from the
ruling of the Chair that is all right.
i\Ir. VooRiiis. If I can't make a brief statement I do want to take
such an appeal, but if you let me make a brief statement I will not
have to.
7288 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
My question was simply what he thought about these two matters
in his own publication.
The Acting Chairman. You are asking him for an opinion.
Mr. VooRHis. I have a profound feeling, and always have had, that
the office of the Presidency was one that should be regarded with some
degree of respect, no matter who holds it.
I don't care if the man holding it is diametrically opposed to my
views, I don't think he should be seriously attacked, especially when
contradicting statements are in the attaching literature itself.
The Acting Chairman. Every member of the committee agrees with
the gentleman that that matter lies with the courts.
Mr. VooRHis. I don't think it does. I think the thing is carefully
worded. I don't think there is a positive statement made in here. It
is all innunendo.
The Acting Chairman. If you want to make a statement for the
benefit of the President and the country, if you think it is a dirty, scur-
rilous attack, you have that privilege.
Mr. VooRHis. I would like to know what Mr. Pelley thinks about it.
The Acting Chairman. I don't give a hang what ikr. Pelley thinks
about it and I am not going to give Mr. Pelley or any other witness
an opportunity, so long as I am in the chair, to attack the President
of the United States or any other citizen even though he is invited,
inferentially, to do so or given an opportunity by a question pro-
pounded by the members of the committee.
Mr. Voorhis. I bitterly resent the impression that I have invited
somebody to attack the President. I think the gentleman knows full
well what the purpose of my question was.
The Acting Chairman. Well, he has given the witness that op-
portunity.
Mr. VooRHis. I have one or two more questions.
The Acting Chairman. All right, propound them.
Mr. Voorhis. Mr. Pelley, do you feel that it is possible for us to
solve our economic problems within the framework of our constitu-
tional government ?
Mr. Pelley. Do I believe it is possible? Decidedly so, Mr. Voor-
his.
Mr. VooRHis. So do I. Under those circumstances, isn't it true
that every effort should be made to uphold the work of the duly
constituted law-enforcing bodies?
Mr. Pellet. Absolutely, Mr. Voorhis, so long as they exist.
Mr. VooRHis. And it would be, therefore, also true, would it not,
that the set-up of any group which might either, with or without
any definite decision being made beforehand, take the law into its
own hands be dangerous to those things, isn't that true ?
Mr. Pelley. No; I cannot subscribe to that. You are asking for
my psychology on this problem that we are facing, and that is draw-
ing an analogy to the Minute Men in Concord in '76. Were they
ready for a situation when it arose? I say they were, and I say they
were not acting illegally or mischieviously.
Mr. Voorhis. They were protecting their own continental govern-
ment.
Mr. Pelley. And we are trying to do the same thing, Mr. Voorhis.
At least that is our intent.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7289
Mr. VooRHis. But you propose, it seems to me, to take the law into
your oAvn hands under certam circumstances to do it.
Mr. Pelley. I have repeatedly told this committee, and I still em-
phasize it, only in the event that it breaks down, and there is no
other ao^ency to whom to appeal.
Mr. A'ooRHis. But you said a little while ago (hat you believed
that break-down ^
Mr. Pelley. Can be averted; yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. Yes; and I hope it is. Tliat is all.
The Acting Chairman. All right, Mr, Casey.
Mr. Casey. Comes the revolution, Mr. Pelley, and you and your
Silver Shirts step in. is that it?
]Mr. Pelley. No ; we hope we might have the chance to do it.
Mr. Casey. Well, you would make the attempt?
Mr. Pelley. Comes the revolution ; yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. You would be the leader of the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir.
Mr. Casey. What form of leadership would you take — president,
king, emperor, or dictator, or what?
Mr. Pelley. I would endeavor to restore constitutional conditions
and have a plebiscite by our people, and put a man back in the
President's chair of the United States with no title whatever to my-
self. Does that answer your question?
ISIr. Casey. You would merely be the power behind the throne?
Mr. Pelley. Why quibble about terms, Mr. Casey?
]Mr. Casey. Let us not quibble. You still want to be the power
behind the throne?
Mr. Pelley. I do not. I want to be the power against anything
like that and the power behind a restoration of our Constitution as
I have known it ever since 1890.
Mr. Casey. You would simply modestly step aside?
Mr. Pelley. I certainly would, (tocI helping me: yes. sir.
Mr. Casey. But until that plebiscite you would take control?
Mr. Pelley. In the absence of any other force of a similar renovat-
■ng and resuscitating nature: yes. sir.
Mr. Ca.sey. Xow, wlien you were in control, would you follow up
your idea of the segregation of Jews in j^articular cities?
Mr. Pelley. I would until our American people had a chance to
speak upon that same subject.
Mr. Casey. Let me get that clear: Would that segregation take the
shape of Jews having ghettos in particular cities, and would it mean
the segregation of all Jews into an all-Jewish city?
Mr. Pelley. I would say the literature speaks for itself.
The Acting Chairman. In this connection, Mr. Witness. I again
must repeat the necessity of refraining from any expressions about
the committee.
Mr. Pelley. Please excuse me.
The Acting Chairman. I mean a statement of affection in one
moment and then a charge of ignorance in another, the appalling
ignorance of another, plus the fact that you have sued the com-
mittee, plus the fact that you bitterly attacked it over a period of
months in your publications. That reinforces the Chair in its own
opinion of its own wisdom in ruling that we don't want any state-
ments of this kind in this record, and, furthermore, that we don't
7290 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
care anything about your feelings or the feelings of any other wit-
ness toward the committee.
We are trying to get the truth. Therefore, make you answers
responsive to the questions.
Mr. Pelley. Pardon me. What was the question?
Mr. Casey. Tlie question was what you would do in the matter of
segregating Jews in particular cities?
Mr. Pelley. I suggested it would be a very humane and fine thing
to designate certain cities where our Hebrew people could live their
own lives and religious lives and institutions and not come into
troublesome friction.
Mr. Casey. How would you accom])lish that as a practical matter?
Would you put walls around them?
Mr. Pelley. Decidedly not. I would give them certain
Mr. Casey. Would you prevent them from having trade and inter-
course with other people?
Mr. Pellet. Prevent them ? I don't know what that means.
Mr. Casey. Would you allow them to do those things — carry on
trade with other people in other cities?
Mr. Pelley. It probablj^ would be an economic necessity.
Mr. Casey, But you think that would solve the ])roblem which you
say is a problem in your mind ?
Mr. Peixey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. Now, would you do a similar thing to any other group
say the Negi'oes ?
'Mr. Pelley. No, sir ; we have no racial friction, that is, of any size
with the Negroes.
Mr. Casey. I was interested in your remark that something made
a good story. You are interested in good stories, aren't you Mr.
Pelley?
Mi\ Pelley. Yes, sir ; but not exclusively
Mr. Casey, Now, there are other people who are interested.
Mr. Pelley. I mean that was just a side, facetious remark at the
moment.
Mr. Casey. You are interested in publishing good stories?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr, Casey. Stories of interest to the readers of your publications ?
Mr. Pelley. Correct, sir.
Mr. Casey. And you have 7 minutes in eternity whicli you pviblished
and received $200 a minute for those 7 minutes in eternity ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And you published a booklet stating why you would not
appear before this committe, did you not ?
Mr. Pelley. A statement of why I would not ?
Mr. Casey. A statement of why you would not appear before this
committee ?
Mr. Pelley. Would you identify the book ?
Mr. Casey. Have you no memory of publishing anything like that?
Mr. Pelley. You mean the Dies Political Posse ?
Mr. Casey. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. I published that book. I identified it yesterday.
Mr. Casey. And you have published speeches of Congressman
Thorkelson ?
Mr. Pelley, Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7291
Mr. Casey. Did you chiu<>e money for that?
Mr. Pellet. I charoed the cost.
Mr. Casey. You charged 10 cents?
Mr. Pelley. I cliarired money ; yes, sir. But may I call the gentle-
man's attention
Mr. Casey. Did yon have anything to do with the writing of any of
Congressman Thorkelson's speeches?
Mr. Pelley. Decidedly not : in no instance.
Mr. Casey. Now, o^er a period of the last 6 years you have published
a great many books and brochures and pamphlets, all of which have
been issued for a price to the public, varying from 10 cents up to —
what was your highest price?
Mr. Pelley. TwentA-five cents.
Mr. Casey. Twenty-five cents your highest price ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And apropos of being interested in good stories, in 1930
you weie in New York in your flat at Fifty-third Street and you were
reading the biography of' Benito Mussolini, and you suddenly came
to and realized that you had read one full page of that biography and
absorbed every word of it with your eyes completely shut?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. sir. In telekinetic research, that is a phenomena
we discover in a great many people.
Mr. Casey. But you yourself stated in a book that you had had that
personal experienced
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. Happened to you?
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
IVIi". Casey. Now you have also put into your literature another
experience in a book called Thinking Aloud. That had to do with
levitation and consciousness?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. "^AHiich you describe as the altering of your center of
gravity of thought.
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Chairman, may I appeal that is not an answer
to un-American activities. That pertains to my religion.
Mr. Casey. You claim to have altered the center of gravity of
thought so you could project yourself m appearance to distant
cities, did you not ?
Mr. Pelley. May I have a ruling on that?
The Acting Chaiemax. Mr. Casey, as I understand it, your ques-
tion is leading up to the fact that his esoteric work dovetails in with
and influences his Silver Legion work and that that is a part of the
philosophy in the Silver Legion movement. Is that the idea?
Mr. Casey. That is right.
The Acting Chairman. With that understanding and that limita-
tions, that is a proper question and I will instruct the witness to be
responsive in his answers.
Mr. Casey. I merely asked you if you made that claim, that you
could alter your center of gravity of thought and project yourself
into distant localities? Can you answer that yes or no?
Mr. Pelley. Anything that is in my publication I stand behind.
Mr. Casey. Can you answer that yes or no ?
Mr, Pellet. Yes, sir.
7292 UX-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. Tlieii we understand the answer is "yes"?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Casey. You also have slated some place else that there is ai
universal stupidity on the part of mankind, have you not?
Mr. Pellet. I may have made that statement, sir.
Mr. Caset. And you tliink that Barnum was right when he said
there was a suclcer born every minute?
Mr. Pellet. Mr. Chairman, please
Mr. Casey. I am asking you the question.
Mr. Pellet. I don't think thai appertains to un-American activities.
Mr. Casey. Do you think Barnum was right when he said "A
sucker is born every minute" ?
Mr. Pelley. I don't know that he said that.
Mr. Casey. Haven't you stated Barnum said there was a sucker
born every minute ?
Mr. Pelley. Not in the coimection which you are using there to
apply.
Mr. Casey. I lefer you to Thinking Alive, page 311.
Mr. Pelley. Not in the connection in which you are using it.
Mr. Casey. No matter what connection. Haven't you stated in
your writings tlint Bannnn said there was a sucker born every mintue,
haven't you?
Mr. Pellet. That phrase may have been used, but I want to know
how
IVIr. Caset. Answer ye? or no. That is not a difficult question.
Mr. Pellet. (No answer.)
Mr. Caset. Haven't you stated that Barnum stated there was a
sucker born every minute in your writing ?
Mr. Pellet. I may have said such a thing; yes, sir.
Mr. Caset. And didn't you add "and most of them lived"?
Mr. Pellet. That is just a passing witticism, Mr. Casey.
Mr. Caset. You have never sought to profit upon that state of
mind which you shared?
Mr. Pellet. I have not; sir. May I decidedly emphasize that
my literary revenue before I began this work was better than $20,000
a year.
l\Ir. Caset. I haven't asked you any question.
Mr. Pellet. Yes; you did. You did not let me finish.
Mr. Caset. You have ansAvered every question I have asked you.
NoAv, I sliall ask you another question.
Mr. Pellet. You asked me if I had not profited —
Mr. Caset. And your answer was what?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Caset. Have you placed on your mailing list the names of
Representatives and Senators
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
ISIr. Caset. To receive copies of these books?
Mr. Pellet. Yes. sir.
Mr. Caset. And those are given out free?
Mr. Peluit. Yes. sir.
Mr. Caset. "With tlie hope they will influence Senators and Con-
gressmen ?
Mr. Pellet. I don't know what you mean by "influence."
Mr. Caset. Bring them around to your point of view.
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7293
Mr. Pklley. Yes, sir. I consider that is a very American thing
to do.
Mr. Casky. Have you ever sent hirge bundles of literature to any
particular Representative or Senator^
Mr. ]*KLLKY. Not that I recall — large bundles of literature; no, sir.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever send more than one copy at a time so
that a i)articular Representative or Senator might be a niedium of
distribution^
Mr. Pkii.ey. I do not recall: sir, unless tliey had requested it. I
have had many requests from them for that.
jMr. Casey. You have had many requests?
Mr. Pelley. For more than one copy where they said: "Can you
let me have several copies of such and such an issue."
]\Ir. Casey. From Representatives or Senators?
My. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. AVhat Representatives or Senators have you had that
request from ?
Mr. Pelley. I can't give you that, but I will be delighted to do it
aft«r the investigation.
^Ir. Casey. All right; will you do that for us?
Mr, Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. At another point in your writing, Mr. Pelley, you
claim to have undergone a complete physical alteration between
inidnight and sunrise?
Mr. Pelley. If that is in my book, yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. It is in your book New Liberator, June 1931 ?
Mr. Pelley. I stand by that.
Mr. Casey. Pages 4 and 5?
Mr. Pelley. I stand by that.
Mr. Casey. You stand by that?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. That is all.
Mr. VooRHis. ]May I ask one more question?
The Acting Chairman. The gentleman from California has a
question.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Pelley, you employed Mr. David Mayme here
in Washington?
Mr. Peij^ey. No ; I can't say I employed him, Mr. Voorliis. The
status of the arrangement was that Mr. Mayme very often sent me
down some items of interest that he thought w^oulcl appeal t<^ oui-
people, and when I came to Washington from time to time, if he
needed a ten-dollar bill I gave it to him.
Mr. YooRHis. Did you ever employ him in Asheville to make an
investigation for you down there of any public officials ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. I did; that is true.
Mr. VooRHis. What was the purpose of that, Mr. Pelley (
Mr. PELiJiY. Because I was having at that time a very unj)leas-
ant, distressful series of attacks on my printing plant and I wanted
to know who was responsible.
Mr. VooRHis. What kind of an investijration did Mr. Ma vine make
in tliat connection (
Mv. Pelley. He wasn't very successful.
Mr. VooRiiis. AVhat was he trying to find?
7294 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. Trying to find out who was coming there at night
and throwing rocks and stones and ripe tomatoes and whatnot at
the froiit of my publishing plant.
Mr. VooRHis. Did you think public officials were doing that ?
Mr. Pelley. No; I would not say I thought public officials were
doing it.
Mr. VooRHis. Then why did you investigate public officials or
attempt to?
Mr. Pellet. Well, I don't know what you mean, Mr. Voorhis. I
don't know that I did investigate public officials.
Mr. VooRiris. I understood you to say a minute ago that you did.
Mr. Pellet. I may not have understood your question. I am hav-
ing difficulty in hearing.
Mr. Voorhis. Did Mr. Mayme, or did he not. investigate public
officials?
Mr. Pellet. I don't know what he investigated. I only know
what I asked him to get for me.
Mr. Voorhis. What did you employ him to investigate?
Mr. Pellet. I answered your question.
Mr. Voorhis. Yes, and you told me in answer to it that you ein-
ployed him to investigate public officials.
Mr. Pellet. Well, I will qualify that or withdraw it.
Mr. Voorhis. You mean that you
Mr. Pellet. In other words, Mr. Voorhis, I am not trying to evade
your question in any way. There has been a very great deal of
animosity down there in Asheville that appeared in our newspapers
and whatnot, and attacks on my building, and I wanted to try
to find out the specific individuals who were behind it: if they were
public officials, that was their hard luck.
Mr. Voorhis. But Mr. Mayme did not find out anything?
Mr. Pellet. Not satisfactorily, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Any other question by the members of
the committee at this time?
Mr. Caset. I would like to ask another question.
The Acting Chahiman. The gentleman from Massachusetts.
Mr. Caset. Did you state in one of your pamphlets that you, al-
though the committee had claimed to be looking for you. that you
made no attempt to avoid appearing before the committee, but had
gone about your business in quite the usual tenor of your ways?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir; I believe I made that statement at that
date.
Mr. Caset. You say now that you made no attempt to avoid the
committee's endeavor to have you appear before it ?
Mr. Pellet. That was at that date, the date of the pamphlet that
the statement was made.
Mr. Caset. What date was that?
Mr. Pellet. I don't know. You have the pamphlet in front of
you. In other words, I identify it.
Mr. Thomas. I^et us get the ai^proximate date, Mr. Casey.
Mr. Caset. All right, I will ask him the approximate date. What
was the approximate date ?
INIr. Pellet. That I made the statement ?
Mr. Caset. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pellet. I think it was prior to August 1 .
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7295
iNIr. Casey. Prior to Aii<>ust 1 (
Mr. Pellev. Yes, I believe so.
Ml'. Casey. So since August 1 you have attempted to evade the
committee's efforts to brino- you lu'fore it ?
^Ir. Pelley. No. I could not conunit myself to that.
Mr. YooRHis. Well, where were you in the month of December, Mr.
Pelley^
Mr. Pei.ley. Going about my business in the United States, traveling
from State to State.
Mr. \'ooRHis. You knew the committee wanted to bring you before
it at that time?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, I knew that through the newspapers, by hearsay.
Mr. YooRHis. It wasn't possible to serve you with a subpena if we
did not know where you were ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. that is true.
Mr. YoORHis. Then later why did you decide you would come in?
]\Ir. Pelley. Didn't I yesterday — pardon me, the question
The Acting Chairman. You do travel extensively throughout the
United States?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, indeed. I travel pretty near 100,000 miles a
year. Mr. Chairman. My automobile shows nearly 100,000 miles a
year.
Mr. Casey. I should think he could project himself. Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. That is a rather facetious remark. Are
there any other questions ? If not, the committee will stand adjourned
until 1 : 30 p. m.
AFTER RECESS
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM DUDLEY PELLEY— Kesiimed
The Chairman. Gentlemen of the committee during the year 1939,
Mr. Barker, an investigator for the committee checked the financial
records of Mr. Pelley and his organization.
Mr. Barker, in addition to being an investigator for this committee
is also a licensed attorney at law. He is familiar with the procedure
of the conmiittee and in view of the fact that the committee at the
present time is operating without the benefit of counsel, I am going
to suggest to the committee that we let Mr. Barker conduct this
examination.
If any member of the connnittee desires to ask questions during the
course of Mr. Barker's examination, or after that, they may do so. Is
that agreeable with all of you ?
Mr. Casey. Yes.
]Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. YooRHis. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Barker will you take charge of the
witness?
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, has the witness been informed that he
is still under oath?
The Acting Chairman. Oh, yes, certaiidy. Mr. Pelley, you un-
derstand, of course, after you made your first public appearance
049.'il— 40— vol. 12 7
7296 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
before this committee that every statement that you have made has
been under oath. You understand that?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, have you used any other name other than
the name of William Dudley Pelley in your traveling about the
country ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. What name did you use?
Mr. Pellet. William Goodale.
Mr. Barker. William Goodale?
Mr. Pellet. That is right. May I qualify that?
The Acting Chairman. I believe you said that was one of your
pseudonyms — of the names under which you have written?
Mr. Pellet. It is mostly due to the fact that my name being pub-
licized as it is, it very frequently causes riots and disturbances in
places where I stay.
The Acting Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, do you know Frazer S. Gardner?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. When and where did you meet him ?
Mr. Pellet. I met him in the office of David Babp here in Wash-
ington, on Fourteenth Street.
Mr. Barker. Is he an attorney?
Mr. Pellet. I don't know what his business is. I don't think he
has any.
Mr. Barker. That was at 229 Baum Building?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Babp was also on your pay roll?
Mr. Pellet. No; Mr. Babp was my — did two or three jobs as an
attorney. Mr. Babp is an attorney here and he was — I paid him
$300 for doing a job in connection with moving some furniture and
other things in the city. Do I speak up loud enough?
The Acting Chairman. We can hear you, Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Barker. Now, under what name did you meet Frazer
Gardner ?
Mr. Pellet. My own.
Mr. Barker. Your own name?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. William Dudley Pelley?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. You did not meet him under the name of Goodale ?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. Barker. Was anybody else present when you met him?
Mr. Pellet. I met Mr. Gardner first in a social way when I was
introduced to Mr. Babp. I knew him through Mr. Babp.
Mr. Barker. How often have you seen Frazer Gardner since that
time ?
Mr. Pellet. I don't think I have seen him only about — no more
than four or five times.
Mr. Barker. When was the first time you met him?
Mr. Pellet. In his office — Mr. Babp's office.
Mr. Barker. Do you know when that was?
Mr. Pellet. No, I can't tell you, Mr. Barker; not from memory.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7297
Mr. Barker. What \vas the occasion for ineetinjr Gardner in David
Babp's office?
Mr. PELI.EY. He happened to walk in— wliether by prearrange-
ment, I don't know. I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. Barker. Was anybody else present when you met him the four
or five times you say you had occasion to meet him?
Mr. Pelley. I tliiiik practically every time.
Mr. Barker. Well, what was the occasion of your meeting with
Frazer Gardner?
Ml-. Pelley. I don't understand your question. What was the
occasion ?
Mr. Barker. I mean what business did you have wnth Frazer
Gardner ?
Mr. Pelley. We just sat there and talked about conditions here m
Washinaton.
^Ir. Barker. Did you ever see Gardner at any other place other than
the District of Columbia ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes; I saw him in New York, which is one of the times
1 am speaking about.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever see him at Asheville, N. C. ?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
jSlr. Barker. Do you know where Gardner resided here in Wash-
ington?
Mr. Pelley. On Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever have occasion to visit Gardner at his
home on Wisconsin Avenue?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. :Mr. Gardner, Mr. Pelley. was a secretly paid agent of
yours, wasn't he ?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
Mr. Barker. He was not ?
Mr. Pelley. "Secretly paid agent"; what do you mean by that?
]Mr, BarivER. Well, he was in your employ ?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir,
Mr. Barker. Secretly.
Mr. Pelt>ey. What "do you mean ''secretly," Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. Well, I mean there was no public record kept of any
kind concerning his employment.
Mr. Pelley. Could I explain that in my ow^n words?
Mr. Barker. Certainly.
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Babp, I believe, said that Mr. Gardner was con-
versant with affairs on Capitol Hill and otherwise, and very frequently
would be able to give me good reporting stories as to what was going
on in the Congress. That is as much as the secret agency amountecl
to. It wasn't a regular, contimiing employment, but yet it might be
taken as such. I mean there w^as no subterfuge, no chicanery, or
subtei-fuge, or trying to cover up anything particularly about it.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, liere are jjhotostats of checks of the
Skyland Press, Inc., signed by you as president and by A. H, Talpey
as treasurer, on the Wachovia Bank & Trust Co. at Asheville, N. C.
In these checks are many drawn to your employees. They are photo-
stats. None of these checks are drawn to the order of Frazer Gardner.
I find checks in here to David Babp but I don't find any in here to
Frazer Gardner. How did you pay Frazer Gardnei ?
7298 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. Mostly, I think as I recall it. by telegraphic money
transfer — cash.
Mr. Barker. That was by the Postal Telegraph Co.?
Mr. Pelley. I could not say that.
Mr. Barker. Yon have comnnuiicated with Mr. Gardner on many
occasions by telegraph, haven't you ?
Mr. Pelley. I wouldn't call it many occasions; no, ]Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. You haven't ?
Mr. Pelley. AVell, what do you mean — quality what you mean.
Mr. Barker. Well, you have sent him telegrams on many occasions,
haven't you ?
Mr. Pelley. I might have; yes. "Many" is a rather vague term.
Mr. Barker. Here is a telegram, Mr. Pelley, to Frazer Gardner
from Asheville, N. C, dated March 1, 1939, sighed "W. D. P., charge
Skyland Press." Did you send that telegram, Mr. Pelley. [Handing
document to the witness.]
Mr. Pelley. Is this an original?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; I did not. That is not my writing nor my
initials.
Mr. Barker. Was that telegram telephoned in from j^our office?
Mr. Pelley. That I could not say.
Mr. Barker. jNIr. Pelley, it was the procedure of Skyland Press em-
ployees in your publishing house to tele])hone messages instead of
taking them up to the office uptown, wasn't it?
Mr. Pelley. (No answer.)
Mr. Barker. There was no office at Biltmore ?
Mr. Pelley. No, no ; no office at Biltmore.
Mr. Barker. And Biltmore is approximately how many miles from
the Postal or Western Union office from uptown Asheville?
Mr. Pelley. Two miles.
Mr. Barker. About 2 miles ?
The Acting Chairmax. Did you or did you not telephone your
messages in frequently ?
Mr. Pelley. On general business; yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Barker. Bead this telegram, Mr. Pelley and see if you can
recollect sending that message to Gardner. [Handing paper to the
witness.]
Mr. Pelley. I can't recollect sending it but I approximately — I
would say that I did. I recall two occasions and that was probably
one of them when I sent some money to Mr. Gardner up here.
The Acting Chairman. Will you identify those for the record,
Mr. Barker? You should mark them as exhibits.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, these have been previously read into
the record.
Mr. Thomas. What does that particular telegram say?
Mr. Barker. I will read it for you, Mr. Thomas.
Please call at Postal Telegraph, Washington Building. 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning for money transfer. Sorry about delay. It won't happen again.
Mr. Thomas. What was the date of that telegram?
Mr. Barker. INIarch 1, 1939. Mr. Pelley, when did you employ
Frazer Gardner?
Mr. Pelley. You mean the date ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7299
Mv. Peli.ky. Well, strictly si)onkiii<>-, Mr. Barker, I did not employ
him. The situation, if theconnnittee wishes it explained, was this:
I met Mr. Gardner in JNIr. Babp's office, as I heretofore said, and then
T had a man by the name of Mr. Cummin<>;s who came to my hotel one
niolit and said he had met Mr. Gardner. I think it was at some restau-
rant here in town, and talked about sending stories for us. Congress
then just opening and 1 wanting a reporter of that kind up here to
use tluwn there, and, let me see — T am trying to recall — asked me if
it would be all right to make a deal with him.
I told him, '*Yes, go ahead, see what Gardner wants and what he
could |)r<)duce and 1 will i)ut it ou a trial basis to see what the trend
of material would be."
Mr. 1)Ai:kek. Did you instruct Marion Henderson, your secretary,
to accept collect messages from Gardner?
Mr. Pellet. I don't recall.
]\rr. Barker. Telephone numl)er 4810, Asheville, X. C.
Mr. Pellet. 1 don't remember instructing her ; no.
Mr. Barker. Were messages accepted collected from Gardner?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
'Sir. Barker. And those messages came from Gardner's telephone
munber, AVisconsin 0430 from his home, 3224 Wisconsin Avenue ?
Mr. Pellet. I believe so.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, you visited Mr. Gardner in his home ?
Mr. Pellet. I did, sir.
Mr. Barker. And Mr. Pelley, you yourself, made telephone calls
from Gardner's home to your office at Asheville, N. C, collect yourself,
didn't you?
Mr. Pellet. I think I did on one occasion.
Mr. Barker. Here is a record of a telephone call on May 0, 1939,
from Emerson 0430, Washington, D. C, Goodale, calling Asheville
4810 collect. Another one on ^May 23. 1939, Emerson 0430, Washing-
ton. D. C, Goodale calling Asheville 4810 collect. You called twice?
Mr. Pellet. I may have done so.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Gardner frequently called you from Asheville —
fi-om National 3587 from Washington, D. C?
Mr. Pellet. Called me from that mnnber?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Pellet. I can't tell you where he called from. I don't know.
]\Ir. Barker. That was the telephone number of David Babp in the
Baum Building.
Mr. Pellet. I don't know that.
Mr. Barker. You had occasion to write Gardner letters, didn't you?
]\Ir. Pellet. No, I don't recall : I cannot recall that I did, Mr. Barker.
If you can refresh my memory with something
Mr. Barker. AVell, did you receive letters from Gardner?
Mr. Pellet. I received newspaper stories from him.
]\rr. Barker. You did?
Mr. Pellet. Yes; sent to "Liberation."
]\Ir. Barker. Mr. Gardner frequentl}' called you about the activities
of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, didn't lie ?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
]Mr. Barker. He did ?
ISIr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Baker. Frequently?
7300 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Who was your attorney in Washington in 1939 ?
Mr. Pellet. That was last year.
Mr. Barker. Yes?
Mr. Pellet. I believe Mr. Babp was for a matter of 3 months and
that was all. I haven't any attorney.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, if you jiaid all your employees by check
and it seems that you did pay practically all of tliem here by check,
why didn't you pay Mr. Gardner by check '^
Mr. Pellet. He wasn't an employee.
Mr. Barker. He was not ?
Mr. Pellet. Well, in the sense of — no; he was doing a special job
for me — doing a special job of selling these stories.
Mr. Barker. How long did he work for you ?
Mr. Pellet. I say he sent those stories in — let me see
The Acting Chairman. When did he send the first stories in ?
Mr. Pellet. I can't recall out of hand. I wish I had something
to refresh my memory with.
The Acting Chairman. Well, did those telegrams shown you a
moment ago — when were they dated, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. March 1, 1939 ?
The Acting Chairman. March 1. 1939?
Mr. Pellet. I would say it was approximately, around there.
The Acting Chairman. That is when he sent the first. How
often did he send you stories? That is the thing I am interested in.
Mr. Pellet. I would say a couple of times a week.
The Acting Chairman. How were those transmitted ?
Mr. Pellet. He mailed them down in manuscript form.
The Acting Chairman. Now, did he ever telegraph you any
stories or call any stories into you ?
Mr. Pellet. Oh, yes.
The Acting Chairman. Xow, how often would he do tliat, just
an approximation.
Mr. Pellet. Every other day.
The Acting Chairman. Now, that continued over the course of
months ?
Mr. Pellet. Put it weeks. Wasn't over a course of months.
The Acting Chairman. How many months ?
Mr. Pellet. March, April. May, June, July — I vrould say some
time in July.
The Acting Chairman. That regular connection between you con-
tinued up until the month of Juh^ you would say now?
Mr. Pellet. (No answer.)
The Acting Chairman. How many reports did 3^ou receive during
the month of August ?
Mr. Pellet. I don't think I received any, Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. September?
Mr. Pellet. Nor since then.
The Acting Chairman. On August 1 did you, and after August
1, do a considerable amount of traveling in the country?
Mr. Pellet. Yes; I did.
The Acting Chairman. How?
Mr. Pellet. Automobile.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7301
The Acting Chairman. Often incognito, or under the name of
Goodale, I helieve you stated a moment ago?
Mr, Pelley. Well, yes and no. Mr. Zachary's boy suffered a very
serious injury to his leg in the State of Washington, and I drove
out there — helpetl liini to drive his car to get out there to see his
boy.
The Acting Ciiaiiiman. When did you go?
Mr. Pf.lley. Along about August 1.
The Acting Chaiioian. August 1 you went to the State of Wash-
ington. How long did you stay in Washington State?
^Ir. Pelley. I must have been out there the better part of a month.
The Acting Chairman. In the month of August. All right.
]Sow. in September where did you go?
Mr. Pelley. 1 was down in — I went from there down into Cali-
fornia and home through Texas and down to Florida.
The Acting Chairman. Where were you in October?
jSIr. Pelley. I went from there up to Chicago and through to
Boston.
The Acting Chairman. And you were continually traveling over
the country in that manner ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Throughout the entire year?
Mr. Pelley. That is right, sir.
The Acting Chairman. I believe your statement was this morning
to the effect that you traveled approximately 100,000 miles per year ?
]\Ir. Pelley. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. In an automobile, or on railway trains?
]Mr. Pelley. Very rarely do I go on the train.
The Acting Chairman. Where did you go in November ?
Mr. Pelley. I was out in Chicago.
The Acting Chairman. In November you were in Chicago. AVhere
were you in December ?
Mr. Pelley. Indiana and Ohio. In other words, Mr. Chairman, I
have not been back to my plant since around August 1.
The Acting Chairman. I see. All right, Mr. Pelle3\
]Mr. Casey. I have a question.
The Acting Chairjvian, Mr. Casey has a question.
Mr. Casey. Have you ever been in Washington in any of these
months, December, November, or October. Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir. I passed through here, Mr. Casey.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever visit Congressman Thorkelson's office ?
]Mr. Pelley. I was in there once. I believe.
Mr. Casey. When was that?
Mr. Pelley. If I recall correctly it was back in September.
Mr. Casey. Back as far as that, was it ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. Except the other day before I came up here.
Mr. (\vsEY. I think you told us this morning that after August 1939
you sought to avoid appearing before this committee?
Mr. Pelley. I did not say that, Mr. Casey.
Mr. Casey. Well, you inii)lied that.
Mr. Pelley. I can't help what the implication would be. I did
not say that.
Mr. Casey. Well, what did you say with respect to that?
7302 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. I said I went about my regular business.
Mr. Casey. Since August ?
Mr. Pellet. Since August.
Mr. Caset. Prior to August you sought to avoid appearing, is
that it?
Mr. Pellet. Please don't. The answer is "No." You say "seek to
avoid," and I don't subscribe to that.
Mr. Caset. Well, you certainly left the impression, did you not,
that at one point you did not avoid, seek to avoid, appearing and
at another period you did. Did you intend to make that impression ?
Mr. Pellet. No, no, sir.
Mr. Caset. Do you say now at no time
Mr. Pellet. I say that up to August 1 I was in my plant in North
Carolina and since that time I have been traveling. That is my
statement. Implications are purely a matter of personal interpreta-
tion, it would seem to me.
Mr. Caset. Well, I am just questioning you about whether or not
you were avoiding appearance at the time. Didn't you understand
that when I asked questions along that line ?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Casey. You thought then — ^you thought I merely meant where
you were, whether you were at your plant or elsewhere ?
Mr. Pellet. That is correct.
Mr. Caset. So you want to leave it now that at no time did you
avoid appearing before this committee ?
Mr. Pellet. I would like for your interpretation of the word
"avoid."
Mr. Caset. Well, did you?
Mr. Pellet. You did not serve me with a subpena under the law,
I was not there at the plant. All I knew about it was what I read
in the newspapers.
Mr. Caset. You did not know at any time except what you read in
the newspapei's that there was an attempt to serve you with a sub-
pena for appearance before this committee ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes; I will qualify that. It was reported to me that
a special-delivery letter requiring my personal signature was delivered
in Asheville, or had been received down there, with the Dies com-
mittee notation on tlie envelope.
Mr. Thomas. Didn't you hear that a United States marshal called
on your office down there ?
Mr. Pellet. Didn't I hear it?
Mr. Thomas. Well, I will change the question. Didn't you know
that a United States marshal vras lookmg for you ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes; I learned that in Asheville.
Mr. Thomas. Yes; that is right. And you also knew that that
United States marshal was looking for you in order to get you to
appear before this committee, isn't that correct?
Mr. Pellet. That was the probability, Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. Now, be a little more responsive. What did you
think, or why do you think, the United States marshal was looking'for
you?
Mr. Pellet. Why, I just answered that question.
Mr. Thomas. Well, answer it again then. Why do you think the
United States marshal was looking for you ?
UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7303
Mr. Pellet. Well, Mr. Thomas
Mr. Casey. That, is not a difficult question, Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Pellet. Why did I think. I don't know, sir, why I thought
the United States niarshal Avas looking for me. It is too vague.
Mr. Thoivias. What you did know, Mr. Pelley, was that the United
States marshal was looking for you in order to have you brought
before this connnittee, isn't that correct?
Mr. Peli^t. All light; that is cori'ect.
Mr. VooRHis. Weil, I would like to ask one question with respect
to that.
The Acting Chairman. All right ?
Mr. VooRHTs. Mr. Pelley, did you make any effort to get that spe-
cial-delivery letter?
jMr. Pellet. No. sir ; I wasn't in the
Mr. VooRHis. And so far as you know it still lies in the post office
in Asheville?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. All right, go ahead, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, hoAv many of these stories Frazer Gardner
sent to you were published in your magazine Liberation concerning
the Dies committee?
Mr. Pellet. That I cannot answer, but several of them. They
were rewritten, however.
]Mr. Barker. They were rewi-itten ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Now. Mr. Pelley, in addition to this telegi'am of
March 1. which you sent to Frazer Gardner, here is an additional
telegram of March 9. 1939. to Frazer Gardner, at Emerson 0430. Now,
this Emerson 0430, Mr. Pelley, was an unlisted telephone number.
Did you know that that was an unlisted telephone number?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
]Mr. Barker. Well, who gave you the telephone number if you did
not know it was an unlisted telephone number?
Mr. Pellet. I don't know.
Mr. Barker. Did Gardner give it to you?
IVIr. Peixey. He might have.
Mr. Barker. You did not get it out of the directory because it
wasn't in the directory.
Mr. Peixet. I don't know about that.
Mr. Barker. This telegram says: "Check mailed you today. Our
friend will contact you and Dave Monday." Signed, "Skyland Press."
That is ;in original?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. It was telephoned in. Do you identify that, Mr,
Pelley [handing telegram to the witness] ?
Mr. Pellet. As being written by me?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Peli^t. No. sir.
Mr. Barker. As having been sent by your office ?
Mr. Pelixt. No, sir; I cannot identify that.
Mr. Barker. Here is another telegram dated March 24, 1939, to
Frazer Gardner, at 3224 Wisconsin Avenue NW., Washington : "Im-
portant visitors here. Cannot leave before Sunday night. Pennsyl-
vania api)ointment is for Tuesday anyhow. Sending you package to
7304 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
home special delivery." Signed, "W. D. P., charge 4810 Skylaiid
Press." Do you recognize sending that telegram to Mr. Gardner,
Mr. Pelley [handing telegram to the witness] ?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; I don't remember, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. You clon't recall sending that telegram to Mr.
Gardner ?
Mr. Pelley. No; I don't recall- sending the telegram.
Mr. Barker. Here is another telegram of April 3, 1939. to G. R.
Ninness, South Hill Branch No. 9, Oakhurst Plan Betheloop, Alle-
gheny County, Pittsburgh, Pa. : "Urgent have Roy in there advise
Lloyd, Emerson 0430 Frazer tonight regarding legislation." Signed,
"Carmichael, charge to Slrydand Press 4810."
Do you recognize that telegram, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. It is all utterly Greek to me.
Mr. Barker. Do you know any of those parties there outside of Mr,
Frazer Gardner ?
Mr. Pelley. (No answer.)
Mr. Barker. Roy is Roy Zachary, isn't it?
Mr. Pelley. I can't identify that telegram, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Here is an additional telegTam of May 17, 1939, to
Frazer Gardner, 3224 Wisconsin Avenue NW., Emerson 0430, Wash-
ington, D. C. : "Detained here until Thursday night." Signed, "W. D.
P.. charge Skyland Press 4810."
Mr. Pelley. That might be.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, api^roximately 20 telephone calls, collect,
were made from Washington. D. C, to you by Frazer Gardner and
about 10 of them to Miss Marion Henderson, your secretary. And
she is your secretary, isn't she?
Mr. Pelley. She was then. She isn't now.
Mr. Barker. She was?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Collect upon which the charges were accepted?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. What reports was Frazer Gardner making to you over
these long-distance telephone calls? That is a rather unusual num-
ber of calls from March until July ?
Mr. Pelley. Well, I assume that that was the news service that he
was furnishing.
Mr. Barker. News service ?
Mr. Pelley. I did not always get them — I mean people at the plant
would take them the same as myself, but that was simply — he probably
called for those people there and, therefore, they went under that name
That doesn't mean that they particularly got them. It was in the ordi-
nary give and take of business. The telephone would ring and such
and such may have happened in Washington today or important news.
The same as any reporter would call his paper and it would be noted
and if I wanted to use it, all right, and if not, I threw it in the waste-
basket.
Mr. Barker. Now, did you receive telephone messages from Gardner
which were received by somebody in your office, for instance, Mi^,s
Henderson, which were subsequently relayed to you by memorandum
or oral report ?
Mr. Pelley. I could not say — I could not testify to that.
UX-AMERICAN TROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7305
Mr. li.uuvER. Did you coiuiiiuniciite with Mr. Gardner through Mr.
David Babp,your attorney here in Washinjiton ?
Mr. Pelley. I mioht have.
The Actin<r Ch.mkmax. What is your best recollection^ Did you?
Mr. Pelley. Not very often. Maybe on a rare occasion, if I wanted
to know where he was, or soinethinjj like that.
Mr. B.VHKEK. Now. Mr. Pelley, what was the appioximate date that
you first met Frazer Gardner ^
Mr. Pellp:y. I cannot answer that out of my memory, Mr. Barker.
I would if I could. Unless you have jrot something- there I would say
sometime around ]\Iarch 1.
Mr. Barker. Around March li
Mr. Pelley. I should sav so.
Mr. Barker. 1939?
Mr. Pelley. Yes : it was in the late winter of 1939.
Mr. Barker. Gardner was receiving money from you weekly ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Is that right ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. How much did you start him out per week ?
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Cunnnings said that Mr. Gardner would be will-
ing to serve us with any important news that might be of interest dow-n
there for $35 a week.
Mr. VooRHis. Just one moment. Mr. Cummings' first name is Hial ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. VooRHis. And he is a cartoonist ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. He is no longer with me. He hasn't been with
me for several months. But he had been in a friendly way in the work
out on the coast and he came through Asheville and drew pictures
for me and very frequently accompanied me around on my trips as a
pal. He had no particular office in the Legion. He wasn't on the
regular pay roll because I paid him per cartoon and for his art service.
Mr. Barker. "Will you spell his first name. Mr. Pelley, for the record ?
Mr. Pelley. His first name is H-i-a-1.
Mr. Barker. ]Mr. Pelley, here is a telephone call, collect, from Re-
])ublic 3731, Washington, D. C. Gardner calling William Dudley
Pelley at Asheville 4810, collect. Charges, $4.40, accepted. And that
call was made January 17. 1939.
Mr. Pelley. Yes; it might be. I say. I cannot positively identif}'
the date. It was along in the early winter, or I mean the late winter.
1 said "early winter" ; I meant late winter of 1939.
Mr. Barker. Well, now, there are many, numerous, telephone calls
on here from your office at 4810 in Asheville, N. C. That is your tele-
phone number, of the Skyland Press, isn't it?
^Ir. Pelley. I believe it is ; yes.
Ml-. Barker. To Frazer Gardner heie in Washington ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. 1 )o you I'ecall authorizing such calls to be made ?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
IVIr. Barker. How nnich money did you pay Frazer Gardner, Mr.
Pelley. while he w'as an agent, or representative, of yours here in
Washington ?
Mr. Pelley. After he had been sending in stories to the papers for
2 or 3 weeks I paid him $r)0 a week, and later on I paid him $65.
7306 UN-AilERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. $65 a week?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, in other words, you were well satis-
fied with the services that he was rendering you ?
Mr. Pellet. Obviously.
Mr. Barker. Now, what occasion did you have — Mr. Gardner is
no longer in your employ ?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir.
Mr. Barker. Well, what occasion did you have to terminate his em-
ployment ? What happened ?
IMr. Pellet. Well, because I found out that his services were being
misconstruetl even by the Dies committee. I had not taken him on
any basis except a straight out-and-out bona fide reporting service to
my paper ; a man that I could get information that I wanted on hap-
penings in Washington. I was a little bit thunderstruck, incidentally,
when that development came about. I mean with that construction
put on it by the committee as reported in the papers.
Mr. Barker. Then you discontinued his employment ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. Did you pay him for the week during which that hap-
pened ?
Mr. Pellet. That, I cannot remember, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Did you pay Frazer Gardner in any other manner ex-
cept than by Postal Telegraph ^ Did you ever pay him any cash ?
Mr. Pellet. Oh, yes.
Mr. Barker. You have ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. When did you make the payments in cash? Before
you started the Postal Telegraph money or transfer arrangements?
Mr. Pellet. That I can't answer. I remember I paid him up in
the lobby of the Burlington Hotel one day when I was here in Wash-
ington.
Mr. Barker. You paid him in cash, then ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Do you remember approximately what date that was ?
Mr. Pellet. No ; I can't. Probably had been working for me. Just
happened I was in Washington, and I gave him this money up there
in the hotel when two or three others were around us.
Mr. Barker. Did you send Mr. Gardner an autographed copy of
your book entitled "The Door to Revelation" ?
Mr. Pellet. I might have ; yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. Did you send him copies of everything that your con-
cern had ])ublished in addition to the Door to Revelation? For in-
stance, some of these booklets over here and the magazine Liberation?
Mr. Pellet. It is very possible.
Mr. Barker. You did?
Mr. Pellet. I don't say that I did. I say it is very possible ; I don't
remember.
Mr. Barker. Was he on your mailing list to receive them ?
Mr. Pellet. Oh, yes.
Mr. Barker. To receive the magazine Liberation ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. He was ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7307
Mr. Bakker. You met Mv. Gardner under the name of Pelley and
not under the name of Goodale?
Mr. 1'elley. To the best of my recollection ; yes, sir. He certainly
Icnew Avho I Avas.
Mv. Baukvai. Mr. Pelley, did you have any knowledge that Mr.
Frazer S. Gardner had made an application to the Special Committee
on Un-American Activities of the House of Representatives for a
jK)sition of investigator?
Mr. Pelley. Yos, sir.
Mr. Barker. You did ?
Mr. l^ELLET. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. When did you have knowledge of that ?
Mr. Pellet. He came to me — let me see; it was — I think that was
discussed the night that I was up there with ]Mr. Zachary and he said
we discussed the termination of his employment in case he went to
work for the Dies committee.
He was very frank about it, and that was one of the things I could
not understand about the blow-up that came later, because there was
no subterfuge about it. He didn't try to get on the Dies committee
for the sake of furnishing stories or anything like that.
Mr. Thomas. He is now telling what is in Gardner's mind. We
have already got that.
Mv. Barker. Yes ; we have Mr. Gardner on record.
The Acting Chairman. As soon as you can conveniently do so, I
suggest you go into the broader aspects of this.
Mr. Barker. Yes. I have just one or two more questions. Mr.
Pelley, what was the date on which this conversation occurred between
you and Roy Zachary, and you and Frazer Gardner?
Mr. Pelley. I would say otfhand, Mr. Barker, that it was about
a month before the termination of his employment.
Mr. Barker. About a month ?
Mr Pelley. I should say so
^Ir. Barker. Mr. Pelley, where was this meeting held ?
Mr. Pelley. In Mr. Gardner's home.
Mr. Barker. 3224 Wisconsin Avenue ?
Mr. Pelley. We were invited up there to dinner one night.
Mr. Barker. Now, when did IMr. Gardner go off of your pay roll?
Mr. Pelley. I can't recall the exact date. It seems to me it was
somewhere around some time in July. What was the date of the sub-
pena business when I learned about the trouble here? Could you
give me that? It was that week. In other words, when this trouble
came up and I learned that the Dies committee thought that he was
perhaps, according to the newspaper reports, sort of a stooge for Pelley,
why, plunk — things stopped.
Mr. Barker. Did Mr. Gardner inform you at the time you met him
in David Babp's office that he could obtain confidential inside informa-
tion about the activities of the Dies committee ?
^Ir. Pelley. Xo; I don't recall that.
Mr. Barker. Did he inform you that he had access to anything that
he wanted over on the Hill ?
Mr. Pelley. No.
Mr. Barker. Referring to the Capitol and the House and the
Senate ?
7308 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. Told nie he was familiar with Capitol Hill, and that
was one of the reasons why I thought he would be a valuable man;
in other words, a professional reporter.
Mr. Barker. Was Mr. Frazer S. Gardner an employee of yours at
the time you became informed of this proceeding before the committee
about his employment ?
Mr. Pelley. Just let me get that straight. What was that question
again, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. Will you read the question ?
(Question read.)
Mr. Pelley. He was still sending me stories, and I was willing to
pay for them.
The Acting Chairmax. And did pay for them ?
Mr. Pellet. And did pay for that up to the w^eek that the thing
happened.
Mr. Barker. Then he was still in your employ ?
Mr. Pelley". You might put it that way; yes. In other words, had
the trouble not happened, why, he probably would haA^e gone on fur-
nishing us with stories.
Mr. Barker. And you would have continued to pay him ?
Mr. Pelley. I see no reason why not.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, let us go back to February 7, 1031,
when you started the Gallahad Press in New York Cit3^ You remem-
ber that date was the date on which vou incorporated the Gallahad
Press?
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. Barker. And M. Joyce Benner and Olive E. Rolibins were two
young ladies emi^loyed in your office, and they were incorporators
along with you ?
Mr. Pelley'. Correct.
Mr. Barker. That was a ])ublishing house ?
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
Mr. Barker. One hundred shares of common stock were authorized,
Mr. Pelley, and you got 34 and each of the women got 33 apiece ?
Mr. Pellet. Correct. May I qualify that ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Pellet. Due to the fact that both women had been in my em-
ploy before the incorporation for a matter of a year and there was
a considerable arrears in back salary, and that was the way it Avas
compensated.
Mr. Barker. Now, how much assets did you start out with. Mr.
Pelley?
Mr. Pellet. That I can't answer without looking at the books, Mr.
Barker.
Mr. Barker. Well, h.ow nuich did you contribute to tlie start of the
organization ?
Mr. Pellet. I contributed the magazine which the concern took
over and forthwith published.
Mr. Barker. And how much cash?
Mr. Pelt.ey'. T forget the amount of cash at the time.
Mr. Barker. It was $10, wasn't it ?
Mr. Pelley'. I can't say. The ])<)irit was, we were incorporating
the magazine which had already been established and was owned by
UX-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7309
iiie personally at that time, and the purpose of the incorporation was
to sell the preferred stock and thereby provide capital for the con-
tinuation of it.
The Acting Chairman. Wlien was that?
Mr. Barker. February 7, 1931.
The Acting Chairman. You testified this morning, Mr. Pelley, that
Miss Scott beofan niakin<r donations when — was it 1931?
Mr. Pellet. I sav her hist donation— she first o()t interested in my
work in April of 1930. I would qualify the statement that the $1,000
a year has come in regularly ever since that time. I told you it was
an averaae over a })eri()d of time.
The Acting Chairman. I understood that it was an average con-
tribution over that period of 3'ears.
Mr. Pellet. Yes. sir.
The Acting Chairman. Was that JNIrs. Sarah L. Scott?
Mr. Pellet, No: Sarah S. Scott.
The Acting Chairman. Mrs. Sarah C. Scott ?
Mr. Pellet. No; Miss.
Mr. Barker. No. 4 Essex Road. Belmont, Mass.
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. BARitER. Now. Mr. Pelley. Miss Scott, while you are on that
subject for a moment, sent vou $3,800 in 1938. didn't she?
Mr. Pellet. 1938?
Mr. Barker. I mean in 1939; pardon me.
Mr. Pellet. That I couldn't tell without looking at my books. I
haven't made my 1939 income-tax report yet.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
The Acting Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. ]\lr. Pelley. at or about the time you employed Fraser
Gardner, or during any time that he was in your employ, did you
know that he had an application in for investigator for this com-
mittee ?
Mr. Pellet. No, sir ; I did not. He told me that he wanted to get a
job on the committee.
Mr. Thomas. I see. That is all.
Mr. Pellet. May I finish my answer ?
Mr. Thomas. I think you answered. Mr. Pelley.
The Acting Chairman. Noav. I want to ask vou a question. You
did get $3,800 from Miss Scott during 1938-39."^ That is your recol-
lection, is it not? You don't deny getting the sum of $3,800?
]\Ir. Pellet. I can't be positive about the amount, Mr. Chairman.
The xVcTiNG Chairman. But something in that neighborhood. That
is an a])proxiination?
Mr. Pellet. Yes: I should say so.
The Acting Chairman. That is all.
Ml-. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, Miss Scott, who sent you that money,
sent it by ))ost -office money order?
Mr. Pellet. Always.
Mr. Barker. Those post-office money orders were purchased at
about five or six difterent substations of the ])ost office in Boston and
the money orders came to you in hundred-dollar amounts, which is
the maximum amount that you came l)y money from her?
Mr. Peli,et. Yes.
7310 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. That is the way they were handled. Now, why did
she send yon that money by money order instead of sending it to you
by check ? She had a bank account with the Harvard Trust Co.
Mr. Pellet. I don't know. You would have to ask her. I don't
know.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever make any arrangements with her
Mr. Pellet. I should say not.
Mr. Barker. That she should send it to you by money order ?
Mr. Pellet. I should say not. If you knew the lady yourself you
would know that that was preposterous.
Mr. Barker. You cashed the money orders; you didn't put them in
the bank ?
Mr. Pellet. I never do.
Mr. Barker. You never deposit any money orders ?
Mr. Pellet. My practice when money orders come in — maybe we
have at times; we put money in the bank if we had some bill to check
against, but our practice down there is to take the day's collection
of money orders and go up to the post office and cash them in cash.
Mr. Caset. And then do what with the proceeds ?
Mr. Pellet. Apply them to the — use them as cash in the business.
Mr. Caset. Put it in your pocket ?
Mr. Pellet. No, Mr. Casey. I think that is a rather unfair insinu-
ation.
Mr. Caset. Tliat is a natural question.
Mr. Pellet. What do you mean, "It is natural"?
Mr. Caset. You take the money orders to the post office and cash
them, but do not deposit those funds to your bank account.
Mr. Pellet. They were properly entered on our books — every cent
of them.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, going back to the Gallahad Press
Mr. Pellet. In fact, I don't always cash them. Nine times out of
ten I have an employee in my office who does all that. I don't touch
money except money that is sent to me ])ersonally and so specified,
and in many cases, let me say for the edification, or for the informa-
tion, of the committee, I can produce letters from Miss Scott, written
spontaneously, in which she says : "I want Mr. Pelley to have the use
of this money. It is not to go into the work," because I was averag-
ing $22 a week ont of this so-called racketeering for my personal uses.
Mr. Caset. Now, you say she wanted you to have the money per-
sonally ?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Caset. What is wrong with the inference if she wanted yon
to have the money personally, that you should take it personally?
Mr. Pellet. You said "put it in my pocket" as though I hadn't
made a report of it. That is what I was a little bit incensed abont.
Mr. Caset. Well, if you followed the lady's desire you wouldn't
have to make a report if it was for your personal use.
Mr. Pellet. Certainly I made a report of it.
Mr. Caset. I say there was no necessity of it if you followed her
desire in the matter.
Mr. Pellet. No. I am not taking money and not reporting it in
my income taxes.
Mr. Caset. I didn't say anything about not reporting it in your
income-tax return.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7311
Mr. Pelley. I make no concealment of the fact that I used the
money on many occasions accordinjr to her wishes after reporting it
to the tax people.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever inquire of her in any shape or manner, as
to why she sent you money orders from substations in the amount
of $100 instead of sending you the full amount a( once by check?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir; 1 never incpiired about that, and it would
have been improper for me to ask.
Mr. Casey. "Yours not to reason why" as long as it came in?
Mr. Pelley. That is another unfair insinuation.
Mr. Casey. You never did ask, did you ?
lilr. Pelley. Why should I ask a lady why she sends me money
orders instead of a check, Mr. Casey ? I don't know.
JSIr. Casey. But she broke it up in $100 amounts ?
Mv. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. The sum of $3,800?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. But there was no particular concealment about
it or they wouldn't have been put through the regular channels in
the post office.
The Acting Chairman. All right, let's go ahead, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Now, jVIr. Pelley, going back to the Gallahad Press :
That was the first corporation that you organized to do a publishing
business ?
]Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. And you started off on February 7, 1931. The cor-
poration had offices in subrented office space at number 11 West
Forty-Second Street, New York City. Is that right?
Mr. Pelley. Right; that is correct.
JNlr. Barker. You had a bank account with the Continental Bank
& Trust Co., of New York, in which deposits were made of $1,159.15,
from June 11, 1931, to October 2, 1932?
Mr. Pelley. It is very possible.
jNIr. Barker. Well, you did have a bank account with the Conti-
nental Bank & Trust Co.?
ISIr. Pelley. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. Barker. Now you had another bank account, Mr. Pelley, w^ith
the Manufacturers Trust Co., in New York?
My. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Do you recall how many thousands of dollars were
deposited in that account, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir. Practically all of our receipts were put in
there if I recall correctly.
Mr. Barker. $7,724.40 was deposited in that account, Mr. Pelley,
according to this [exhibiting document to witness].
IMr. Pelley. Between what dates?
Mr. Barker. I am just coming to that. Between the dates of Sep-
tember 23, 1931, and June 11, 1932.
Mr. Pelley. ' $7,000. Let's see. That would be — that is approxi-
mately correct.
Mr. Barker. They Avere the only two bank accounts you had in
New York City, do you recall ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Only two ?
949.31—40 — vol. 12 8
7312 UN-AINIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, you got a hundred dollars a week —
that is, your salary was to be $100 a week, or $5,200 a year, as president
of Gallahad Press?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. That is right, isn't it ?
Mr. Pelley. I think so. I think that is what the figure was.
Mr. Barker. Now the Gallahad Press was a going concern ; had bank
accounts and was operating ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
]Mr. Barker. Incurred bills, considerable bills, for printing? That
is, you didn't actually do any printing yourself, you had outside con-
cerns do the printing ?
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Barker. Now, the outside concerns that did the printing, Mr.
Pelley, were the Friebelle Press of New York ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. About $1,500 worth?
Mr. Pelley. Wait a minute. Friebelle never did any printing for
Gallahad Press.
Mr. Barker. They did not ?
Mr. Pelley. No. Friebelle did some printing for Miss Margaret
Ghritie, of 299 Madison Avenue, who for a period of 3 months ran
the magazine prior to its incorporation under a trusteeship.
Mr. Barker. For you ?
Mr. Pelley. (No answer.)
Mr. Barker. She was a trustee for you ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right; for me personally before the magazine
was turned over to Gallahad Press.
]Mr. Barker. Now, Abraham Mecrow, of the Mecrow Press, did about
$3,300 worth of printing ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right. That was for Gallahad Press.
Mr. Barker. And tlie Model Printing Co., of Washington, D. C,
did about $1,939 worth?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Now% Mr. Pelley, while this Gallahad Press was a
going concern you came down to Washington and opened a Washington
account with the Franklin National Bank ?
Mr. Pelley. Correct.
Mr. Barker. Didn't you ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. You started that account on October 17, 193 , with
a deposit of $1,000? You gave your address as William Dudley Pel-
ley, Hamilton Hotel, Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right; $1,000, if I remember right, was a con-
tribution to that amount from Jolm Larkin, of the Larkin Soap Co.
in Buffalo.
Mr. Barker. Now, in that account there was deposited up to July
29, 1932, the sum of $29,497.42 ?
Mv. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. That is the calculation
Mr. Casey. What was that sum ?
Mr. Barker. $29,497.42.
The Acting Chairman. Over what period of time, Mr. Barker?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7313
Mr. Hakkkk. I just road the time. I will read it again. October
IT, 1981. to June 29, 1932.
Mr. Pelley. Please, may T qualify my answei-, Mr. Chairman ?
The Acting Chahoian. I asked him a (juestion.
Mr. 15ARKER. Just a minute. Mr. Pelley. I want to ask you a ques-
tion about this bank account.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Hahker. Now your salary as president of Gallahad Press
]Mr. Pelley. And I was writer, exclusive writer of all matei-ial Gal-
lahad l*ress was ])ublishing.
Mr. Barker. Just a minute. Xow, this $29,000 that you deposited
in the Franklin National Bank was funds belonging to Gallahad Piess ?
Mr. Pelley-. Under in.structions and by authority of the board of
directors.
Mr. Casey. I ask that he answer the question.
Mr. I^ARKER. Just answer the question.
Mr. Pellet. Yes; but I want to qualify it.
Mr. Barker. Answer the question.
The Acting Chairman. Give him a categorical answer and then you
can qualify your answer.
Mr. Barker. You deposited in the bank account the above $29,000
and so forth, of funds belonging to Gallahad Press ?
Mr. Pelley. Very possible.
Mr. Barker. That was a personal bank account ?
Mr. Pelley\ Right.
Mr. Barker. And you drew the checks on the account ; nobody else
did any drawing ?
Mr. Pelley-. All right.
Mr. Barker. Is that right ?
Ml'. Pelley. May I qualify it now ?
Mr. Barker. And you drew the checks on tlie account— just a
minute now — why did you take funds? They had bank accounts in
New York. It was a going c(mcern. Why did you take funds belong-
ing to Gallahad Press and ])ut them in a personal bank account in
Washington?
Mr. Pelley'. Because on the date this account was opened down
here we opened the Washington office and closed the one at New York.
Mr. T?ARKER. Why didn't you open the account in the name of Galla-
had Press instead of William Dudley Pelley ?
Mr. Pelley. That was specified in our board of directors. I mean
the minute book of the directors' meeting explains why that was done.
All the funds were accounted for on the books of Gallahad Press.
It was merel}' a convenience at that time l^ecause I didn't have the
other party who signed checks down here and we were opening our
affairs here in Washington and I was down here myself to open the
office up here on AVest 15th Street.
Mr. VooRHis. Do you have those books anywhere ?
Mr. Barker. Pardon me, Mr. Vooi-his. Mr. Pelley. where are the
canceled vouchers that were drawn on that account ?
Ml'. Pelley. I think they are in the — I think they were in the pos-
session— they were in Gallahad Press — they were in Asheville, N. C.,
at the time that somebody, whether it was the McCormick committee-
men or whether it was the referee in bankruptcy, drove three vans up
7314 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
to our place and took everything we had in our shop and moved it out
and I couldn't reclaim it.
The Acting Chairman. Now, just a moment. At that point; who
was the other party that had to sign checks with you ?
Mr. Pellet. I think it was Miss Robbins, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, this was a personal bank account.
There was no countersignature.
The Acting Chairman. It was in 1931 and in 1932 ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. And what was this remark you said about
the McCormick committee getting the records or doing something
about the records ?
Mr. Barker. May I ask him ? I can clear that up.
The Acting Chairman. All right,
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, the McCormick committee did not
come down to Asheville until after the sheriff of Buncombe County
received your record on the 17th day of March 1939, under an order
of Judge Michael Schenk, of the superior court of Buncombe County,
is that right ?
Mr. Pelley. I don't know that. I know Avhen I got back to Ashe-
ville from California that was the statement made to me. We didn't
know who took them.
Mr. Barker. But Mr. Pelley, on January 17, 1934, you telegraphed
Harry F. Seiber from Hollywood, Calif. — Harry F. Seiber was an
agent of yours in Asheville, wasn't he ?
Mr. Pelley. He was treasurer. Let me see. He was treasurer of
the Silver Legion and the Foundation for Christian Economics.
Mr. Barker. He was also treasurer of the Silver Legion ?
Mr. Pelley. He might have been.
Mr. Barker. You telegraphed Harry F. Seiber on January 17, 1934,
from Hollywood, Calif., and you addressed the telegram to ''Harry F.
Seiber, Gallahad College, Asheville, N. C," and in that telegram you
told him that "the Delaware plan sounded excellent," and there was
a last line to the message in which you told him "to immediately clean
all records clean."
Mr. Pelley. I don't remember that.
Mr. Barker. You don't remember that ?
Mr. Pelley. No.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, in the examination of officers of the Galla-
had Press
Mr. Pelley. What was that last you said the telegram said ?
Mr. Barker. Just a minute. I will read it to you. In the examina-
tion of officers of the Gallahad Press by the referee in bankniptcy
Mr. Pelley. What is it you are reading ?
Mr. Barker. I am reading from the record,
Mr, Pelley. What is the report ? What record ?
Mr. Barker. Record of the proceedings before this committee.
Mr. Pelley, You mean this Dies committee, or the McCormick
committee ?
Mr. Barker. No; the Dies committee. In an examination of offi-
cers by the referee in bankruptcy before the referee in bankruptcy at
Asheville, N. C, volume 1, page' 29 — Mr. Summerville, you remember
Mr. Robert C. Summerville was an employee of yours ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7315
Mr. Barker. He stated in answer to a qnestion — now, I will read
this question from the record :
Question. But all the correspondence of the Foundation for Christian Eco-
nomics prior to .January 3, 1!)34, had been devStroyed?
Answer, llisht.
Question. All the correspondence of the Silver Legion had been destroyed?
Answer. Right.
Question. All the correspondence of the Legion of Liberty Association had
been destroyed prior to 1934V
Answei'. Right.
Now, Mr. Seiber, Mr. Kello<>i>-, and Mr. Sumnierville after the
receij^t of that telearani from yon, carried all of the records of
Gallahad Press, includino- some of the books, down to the furnace
of the Women's Club, on Sunset Parkway, in Asheville, N. C, which
was the headquarters of your oroanization at that time, and pushed
tliem in the furnace?
Mr. Pelley. You are telling- me. That is the tirst I knew about it.
Mr. Barker. You did not know anything about the destruction
of the records?
Mr. Pellet. Why, I should say I did not.
Mr. Barker. Just a minute. 1 will read you that telegram:
Habry F. Seiber,
A.sheville, N. C.
This telegram is addressed to Harry F. Seiber, and says :
Ranger to be continued here with the coming issue ; agree with you regarding
Washington but shall start east to fix in time for February divorce hearing;
you are all wrong concerning weeks whipping rapidly into shape ; Delaware
plan excellent ; suggest sample charter immediately clean records clean.
Now, Mr. Pelley, you are on the witness stand and being examined
by an attorney representing the creditors of the bankruptcy pro-
ceeding, and you admitted that you sent that telegram and it was
signed by yourself, and that is in the proceedings, in the Federal
court at Asheville, N. C.
Mr. Pellet. What I am taking exception to, Mr. Barker, is that
your statement there "cleaning the records" replied to taking every-
thing downstairs and throwing it into the furnace. I don't remem-
ber just what, and I am not trying to pull a subterfuge here, I don't
remember just what the reference to records there may have been.
May have meant in the sense of burning up vouchers and that sort
of thing.
]Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, you know that you were examined
for hours and hours and hours
Mr. Pellet. I remember it distinctly.
Mr. Barker. Before the referee in bankruptcy about these missing
records. You heard INIr. Henderson, a certified public accountant
who had been appointed receiver by the State court upon order of
Judge Michael Schenck, and who was subsequently appointed as
trustee in bankruptcy in the Federal court procedure; you heard
him testify he could not make an intelligible accounting of the affairs
of the Gallahad Press because the books had been destroyed.
Mr. Pellet. I might have heard it, but I don't recall it now.
Mr. Barker. Didn't you hear Kellogg. Sumnierville. and Seiber
testifv thev took the records down in the basement and bin-ned them
up? "^
7316 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. That was in
Mr. Barker. In January 1934?
Mr. Pelley. I mean the date in front of
Mr. Barker. Jnne 11, 1934.
Mr. Pelley. In front of what tribunal ?
Mr. Barker. Before the trustee in bankruptcy.
Mr. Pelley. That would be Judge Craig.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. I can't rechll that I heard them testify they took every-
thing down and burned it up. Now, I can't recall that they said that.
The Acting Chairman. Did you order the records to be cleaned —
did you order that ?
Mr. Pelley. I can't remember, Mr. Chairman. What the word
"record" means in that particular, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't
burn up vouchers of my own bank account that I would need to make
tax returns. That would be imbecilic to do. Just what records I had
reference to, I couldn't swear.
Mr. Barker. But you do say, or you do identify, the telegram ? You
sent the telegram all right? You sent the telegram referred to?
You sent the telegram ?
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Barker, after all, this is 8 years ago.
The Acting Chairiman. I can understand that, but you recall some
of the circumstances, of course.
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. Now, after your memory has been refreshed
about that, you did testify you sent such a telegram ?
Mr. Barker. But he denied the last line.
Mr. Pelley. No; what I am not denying is the identification of the
last line.
Mr. Barker. You denied sending a telegram with the last line in
it at the time they examined you in baid<ruptcy. You said you sent
the telegram but you didn't send the last line.
The Acting Chairman. In the hearings before the courts your
company was not able to bring all the records in.
(No answer.)
The Acting Chairman. In this bankruptcy proceeding?
Mr. Pelley. You see, Mr. Chairman, I did not get into Asheville
The Acting Chairman. I understand, but my question is, there is
no dispute about the fact that all the records were not there before
the court ?
Mr. Pelley. That might be true.
The Acting Chairman. All right; that is what we are trying to get.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, right on that point I would like to
get a yes or no answer on the question of the telegram.
The Acting Chairman, He said he sent the telegram.
INIr. Pelley. I don't deny sending the telegi'am.
Mr. Thomas. You admit you did send the telegram ?
Mr. Pelley. Certainly; yes.
Mr. Barker. Kellogg, Summerville, and Seiber admitted they de-
stroyed the records. The receiver in the State court, subsequently
appointed as the trustee in the Federal court said he could not make
an intelligent acounting of the Gallahad Press because the records
had been destroyed.
UN-AMERICAN I'UOPAGANDA ACTl VITIKS 7317
]\Ir. Pklley. I (lid not hoar him say that. 1 wasn't thoiv when he
said tliat so I couhl not tell you.
Mr. Barker. Youi- attorney, Joe Ford, was present ?
Mr. Pelley. That mio;ht be; I don't know; I don't iccall liini sayin<>-
that.
Mr. Barker. You were piesenl. You were examined. You recall
beinp; examined in bankruptcy?
Mr. Pelley. I don't recall the incident of tliose two men making
that statement.
Mr. 11\KKER. Now, Mr. Pelley, the vouchers for the $29,000 bank
account were destroyed with the exception of these few cancelled
checks that we have here. The books that you refei- to as fully sup-
jjortino- the disbursements of this $2l),000 were also destroyed. There
was nothinj; down there to show where this $29,000 came from.
The Acting Chairman. Let him answer those questions, Mr. Barker
Mr. Barker. Yes: I am asking- you
The Acting Chairman. Let him answer the questions.
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Chairman, may I say
The Acting Chairman. Let me ask you a question: Were any
vouchers of the Gallahad Press Co. destroyed by some means ^
Mr. Pelley. I don't know.
The Acting Chairman. You don't know. All right. Do you know
whether or not officials of the Gallahad Publishino; Co. or of the vSilver
Shirt Leo-ion testified that they were destroyed and that they destroyed
them ?
Mr. Pelley. I don't recall that being done now.
The Acting Ciiair:man. You don't recall that being done?
Mr. Pelley. No; I do not.
The Acting Chairman. All right, if you don't recall go ahead.
Mr. Barker.
]Mr. Pelley". Mr. Chairman, ])lease.
The Acting Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. All right. Now. Mr. Pelley, after you opened this
bank account in Washington you had headquarters here at 1019 Fif-
teenth Street NW.?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. How long did you continue in Washington ?
Mr. Pelley. AYe were here until about the 1st of July 1932.
]Mr. Barker. Then you left here ?
]Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. And moved to Asheville, N. C. ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
]Mr. Barkp:r. Gallahad Press was still operating, was it?
Mr. Pelley. No : Gallahad Press was — yes ; Gallahad Press was still
ojjerating. that is right.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, wdiile Gallahad Press was still oper-
ating and while you were still the ])resident of it, and Avhile you were
irettino; $100 a w^eek salarv, vou and Sommerville and INIinnie Helen
Plansmann — is that right ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Ml'. Barker. Had o-one down in North Carolina and incor]iorated
another organization ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
7318 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. To be known as the Foundation for Christian Eco-
nomics ?
Mr. Pelley, Yes.
Mr. Barker. That was done on February 25, 1932?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. All right, again, Mr. Witness, the re-
porter cannot put a nod in the machine or on the record, so please
answer. You are answering affirmatively "Yes" with a nod but speak
out so we can hear you.
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. The answers to those questions was "yes"?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. One hundred shares of stock were authorized, 60 to
you, 30 to Sommerville, and 10 to Mrs. Hansmann; is that right?
Mr. Pellet. That is right. I said "yes." May I qualify that, Mr.
Chairman ?
The Acting Chairman. When he finishes I will let you.
Mr. Pellet. He goes on to other questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. Just a moment, without wanting to inter-
rupt the continuity of your examination or your thought, when you
refer to a point where you can let the witness make whatever qualifying
statement he desires, t think he should be permitted to do so.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. When you ask for a categorical — I mean
when you ask a question that calls for a categorical answer, I insist
that you give one and then insist that counsel give you an opportunity
later to make any statement you care to qualify it.
Mr. Pellet. Well, he asked me — may I pick up on the last one?
Mr. Barker. I want to finish with this now. This was an eleemosy-
nary institution, this Foundation for Christian Economics? It was
founded for the purpose of receving contributions and alms, and so
forth?
]Mr. Pellet. And conducting the summer school on a tuition basis.
Mr. Barker. But the summer school was Gallahad College?
Mr. Pellet. But it was under the supervision of this corporation
that you have reference to.
Mr. Barker. Now, this was supposed to be a nonj^rofit corporation,
is that right ?
IVIr. Pellet. Yes. That is, paid no dividends.
Mr. Barker. But 3^011 had a provision in here, in the bylaws, whereby
dividends could be paid to the officers, didn't you ?
Mr. Pellet. Not dividends paid to the officers.
Mr. Barker. Well, you certainly did. You had a provision in
these bylaws for the declaration of dividends to the officers.
Mr. Pellet. Those bylaws were written by a competent attorney
in Asheville after a discussion of the circumstances as my compensa-
tion for the work I did in carryinir that enterprise along.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, Gallahad Press money paid for the
incorporation of the Foundation of Christian Economics?
Mr. Pellet. No. We had a tussle over that down in Asheville.
Mr. Barker. Yes; I know, but didn't you pay Irving Moore, an
attorney in Asheville, N. C, a fee which included all incorporation
fees of Foundation for Christian Economics?
Mr. Pellet. I personally went down there and did that ; yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7319
Mr. Haukkk. Then the (iallaluul Pivss — the luonoy canie out of the
Oalhihiul Press?
Mr. Pklley. Xo; I cannot say tluit. I would not subscribe to that
for a moment. I don't reniein])(M' al tliis time that that was (ialiahad
l^ress monev or not.
Mr. Barker. You testified in Fedei-al court in the bankruptcy pro-
ceeding- tliat that money had been ])aid but it liad been paid inadvert-
ently.
M"r. Pellet. I did i
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. Well, if T testified that there I subscribe to it hei-e. but
you are askinji- somethino; aoain tliat is 8 years old and I could not
say |)ositively
Mr. VooRHis. Could I get somethino; clear there in my own mind?
The AcTiXG Chairmax. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. As I understand it. Gallahad Press was at this time
(ij)eratin<i: in Washinoton headquarters while this incorporation of the
Foundation for Christian Economics took place in Asheville?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Voorhis, please
Mr. YooRHis. I just want to understand that.
]\Ir. Pellet. I know. IVlay I add something; there, piease?
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, that is a fact that Gallahad Press was
still operating when you incorporated this organization?
Mr. Pellet. That is true. Gallahad Press was still operating
hut it wa^ two separate projects, Mr. Voorhis, and the Gallahad
Press continued its publications and continued its activities and re-
ceived the same revenues from its publishing account with no
duplication of involvement with what was received for the college
project.
]NIr. Barker. Now, ]Mr. Pelley. after the incorporation of tlie
Foundation for Christian Economics, you had associated with you
Dr. H. M. Hardwicki, of Niagara Falls", N. Y.?
Mr. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And Robert C. Summerville?
]\Ir. Pellet. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And Donald B. Kellogg?
]Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Barker. He was manager of Gallahad Press?
Mr. Pellet. "Well, Gallahad Press still had its regular officers.
Mr. Barker. Well, he w-as manager of Gallahad Press?
Mr. Pellet. There was no office of manager exactly. No : I don't
know exactly what he was — manager of it? What do you mean
in that respect?
^Ir. Barker. AVell. he signed checks as manager of Gallahad Press?
Mr. T^ELLET. That. I don't recall, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Now, on May 23, 1923, Donald B. Kellogg — he was
associated with you in the management of Gallahad Press, or was
employed by you, wasn't he?
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Dr. H. M. Hardwicki was employed by you or as-
sociated with you?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
7320 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. No^Y, neither one of those gentlemen was a director
in GaUahad Press nor did they own any stoclc in Gallahad Press?
Mr. Pelley. I am not so snre about Don not being a director,
lelj'ing on my memory.
Mr. Barker. Well, he did not have any stock in Gallahad Press
l^ecause yon have already testified
Mr. Pelley. That was not necessary. He could be a director
without owning stock under the bylaws.
Mr. Barker. He was not a stockliolder ?
Mr. Pelley. I don't know.
Mr. Barker. You and the women had all the stock, Mr. Pelley,
3'ou and Miss Bobbins and Miss
]\Ir. Pelley. Of the common stock ; yes. That is right ; that is
right.
Mr. Barker. Now, they went down here to the register of deeds
office in the District of Columbia, and recorded a chattel mortgage
to the Foundation for Christian Economics for $6,000 on the assets
of Gallahad Press. They did that, didn't they?
Mr. Pejj.ey. Yes; but that was absolutely — that was in a few
days — that was withdraAvn. You are asking me those things on
memory that are very hazy, honestly.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, that $6,000 chattel mortgage was set as
a claim.
The Acting Chairman. Let us not have an argument. You an-
swer the question yes or no.
Mr. Barker. I just want to refresh your memory that the $6,000
chattel mortgage that Kellogg and Hardwicki gave to the Founda-
tion for Christian Economics, upon the assets of Gallahad Press
Mr. Pelley. Wait a minute, that is not true. He is making state-
ments that are not fair because they are not statements of fact.
Mr. Barker. Wait a minute, Mr. Pelley. That mortgage was set
up as a claim in bankruptcy later in Asheville, N. C, when the aifairs
of Gallahad Press went into bankruptcy. Don't you recall that?
Mr. Pelley. No; I don't recall it that way. No; I don't. Here
is what did happen : I, by giving those t\Yo women two blocks of
stock which represented 66 percent of the voting stock, lost control
of my corporation. I went to Herbert Ward, an attorney here in
town, and honestly showed him the predicament I was in.
I said, "Mr. AVard, what will I doT' He said, "I would pay off all
the bills of Gallahad Press. When they are all paid off, and the
stockholders are paid off, and go into your nice clear corporation."
Now. the statement of that chattel mortgage did come up, and, as,
I recall it, it was not gone through with for some legal technicality
there that I just have a dim recollection of. I can't give you the
technical details, or I would cheerfully do so.
Mr. Barker. Well, a mortgage was given by the Gallahad Press
to the Foundation of Christian Economics?
Mr. Pelley. I wish we had Mr. Ward here. He could clear that
up, if it is important, because I cannot recall the details. There is
no attempt to evade your question.
Mr. Barker. You moved the affairs of Gallahad Press from Wash-
ington to Asheville?
Mr, Pelley. That is right.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7321
Mr. Barker. In the meantime you incurred a lot of bills here in
Washin<;ton?
Mr. Pelley. Not much.
Mr. Barker. You owed Charles E. Stott down here an unpaid
bill?
Mr. Pelley. $375, which we reduced later to $110.
Ml-. Barker. That was to Charles H. Potter, here in Washington.
Charles E. Stott was $111, and that is the one lie sued you on before
a justice of the peace in Buncombe County. They sued you on that?
On that $111 bill in Buncombe County, N. C, in March, and got a
judgment ?
Mr. Pelley. AVhich we knew nothing about at the time.
Mr. Barker. Well, they got an execution, and a return, and then
tTudge Michael 8chenck appointed a receiver, and that was when
they got your records.
Mr. Pelley. jNIr. Chairman, he is making a statement, putting the
words in my mouth.
Mr. Bariver. Is that right?
Mr. Pelley, Xo; it is not right.
Mr. Barker. Well, what is right about that ? Tell the committee
what occurred in regard to that $111 bill.
Mr. Pelley. The sheriff came in there, as I got the story later
from the principals involved
The Acting Chairman. Just a moment. What is the pertinency
of this, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. j\Ir. Chairman, I am just coming to that point right
now. I just want to ask the question if there wasn't a suit by Charles
E. Stott & Co. in Washington against Gallahad Press.
Mr. Pelley. Yes; there was, but again I want to qualify these
answers. I am not having an opportunity to do it. I think a
friendly protest is in order.
Mr. Barker. All right.
Mr. Pelley. Wait a minute. I am not finished. I am being cross-
examined. Give me time to finish my answers. They brought in a
notice of that suit and left it with young Mrs. Summerville, who was
not competent to receive it. Not knowing what it was she took it up-
stairs and put it on Mr. Ward's desk, the auditor. Mr. Ward didn't
know what it was and he filed it away and the suit went by default and
we did not know anything about it until they came down and demanded
payment, and then we offered to pay them and they said : "We don't
want your money, we won't take it. We are going through with the
receivership."
That was brought out in 1934 and I believe that is a horse of a differ-
ent color.
The Acting Chairman. Get down to the bank account and show
how much money ]Mr. Pelley has received from different sources to
carry on the Silver Legion work or these publications of his, because
he testified previously that he had the power to take and did take funds
from his esoteric publications and his publishing firm to help carry
on the work of the Silver Legion. Give us the sum total of that. We
are not caring so much about small detail.
Mr. Barker. When you got down to Asheville with the Gallahad
Press there was a bank account opened in the name of Gallahad Press,
William Dudley Pelley, president, and D. D. Kellogg, treasurer?
7322 UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. Yes; that might be.
Mr. Barker. In the First National Bank & Trust Co. at Asheville,
N. C, and in that account from August 8, 1932, to November 31, 1932,
there was deposited $4,796.65. That is the Gallahad Press bank ac-
count in Asheville. I pass them to you for examination [lianding doc-
uments to the witness] .
The Acting Chairman. Is that correct ?
Mr. Pellet. I assume it is. It is tlie ledger sheet,
Mr. Barker. A photostat of it?
The Acting Chairman. All right.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, on June 3, 1932, the Foundation for
Christian Economics started a bank account at Asheville, N. C, with
J. A. Edgerton, treasurer.
Mr. Pellet. That is the school part.
Mr. Barker. With the Wachovia Bank & Trust Co., and that account
was started some 60 days before the account of Gallahad Press June 3,
1932. That account continued until November 29, 1932. Pardon me,
that account continued until December 30, 1933, in which there were
deposits made of $4,793.16. I pass the photostat of the bank accounts
over to you, Mr. Pelley, for your examination. There is also a special
account of the Foundation for Christian Economics in which there
Avere deposits of approximately $2,500. This hasn't been computed,
but I will pass that over to you for examination. Now, the Founda-
tion for Christian Economics also had a bank account with the First
National Bank & Trust Co. in North Carolina which started August
8, 1932, and continued to March 2, 1933, in which there were deposits
of $18,190.61. I pass that over to you for your information.
The Acting Chairman. Did the witness identify that account ^.
Mr. Barker. Did you get his answer to that? What did you say in
regard to that?
Mr. Pellet. I say these photostats beiiig what they are, I would say
these represented the receipts of the publications of the Gallahad Press.
Mr. Barker. They did.
Mr. Pellet. Yes.
The Acting Chairman. ]Mr. Bai'ker, be careful the witness gets his
answer in the record each time.
Mr. Barker. All right. Now. Mr. Pelley, the Foundation for
Christian Economics had a bank account running simultaneously with
Gallahad Press?
Mr. Pellet. There were two projects — one the publishing and one
the school.
Mr. Barker. Gallahad Press got deposits of approximately $4,700
and folded up, and the Foundation for Christian Economics continued
to get deposits of nearly $81,900.
Mr. Pellet. But, my dear man, that is very true, but from a dif-
ferent source entirely. It had what we call the Foundation fellow-
ship; this correspondence school in esoteric work, which had nothing
to do with the ])ublishing of Gallahad Press.
Mr. Barber. Now, do you know Mr. H. H. Ward, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. He was your bookkeeper?
Mr. Pellet. Correct.
Mr. Barker. See if you recall his testimony. Mr. Ward testified in
the bankruptcy proceedings in Federal court that the books of Galla-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7323
luid Press just ([uit uiul in the same ledger the books of the Foundation
for Christian Economics started.
Mr. Pkllet. But. on the other hand. Mr. Barker, was there not a
pairo in the hooks of the foiuidation in which payments were shown
on tlie ()hli<>:ations of GaHahad Pivss to offset that ^ Ins't that true?
'i'hat tliey were in there? I mean to put the inference across that that
simply — ^just simply vanished into thin air is unfair. There was noth-
ing that was spent without the knowled<>-e of the bookkeeper and being
proper! \- credited somewhei'c all the way through.
]Mr. B-VRKKR. Now, Mr. Pelley, Gallahad Press had sold $13,000
worth of preferred stock to some 15 people. 10 of whom were Avomen,
liadn't it ?
Mr. Pelley. It had sold stock. I can't tell you whether the amounts
are correct or not.
Mr. Barker. The preferred stock of Gallaliad Press?
Mr. Pelley. Yes. That was the original project to get money to put
the magazine across in New York; yes.
Mr. Barker. Now. you had unpaid bills in New York; you had un-
paid bills in "Washington. D. C. You also had a — that is of Gallahad
Press. You also had an unpaid bill due Bo)) Williams, of the Biltmore
Press, in Asheville, N. C, of about $6,000?
Mr. Pelley. I don't remember what the exact amount was. We had
l)ills. We had an open account with them.
The Acting Chair3iax. Do you have a record or can you show who
the stockholders were?
Mr. Barker. No, sir; I don't have the record available right here
at the moment of the stockholders — the preferred stockholders.
The Acting Chairman. Do you have records that you could make
available to the committee in that connection. Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. I think I can get a list of these stockholders. I am
not sure of them. ]Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. If you can do it and make them available
so we can incorj:)orate them in the record.
Mr. Pelley. I will try.
Mr. Barker. Now, on April 21, 1984, Bob Williams of the Bilt-
more Press had done considerable printing for you?
Mr. Pelley. $20,000 worth and had been paid.
Mr. Barker. He filed a petition against Gallahad Press in Federal
court asking that it be adjudicated a batikrupt. didn't he. Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. He was one of them.
Mr. Barker. Now, Summerville of the Foundation for Christian
Economics claimed Gallahad Press owed his $133 back salary and
joined in the petition of Bob Williams to have Gallahad Press ad-
judicated a bankrupt and a trustee appointed?
Mr. Pelley. That was all during my absence in California. Before
I got there. That is all hearsay.
Mr. Barker. All right. Now. they had an adjudication of Galahad
Press in bankruptcy by order of Judge E. Yates Webb? On ]\Iay 1,
1934. Gallahad Press was adjudicated a bankrupt. You recall that?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Now, the trustee in bankruptcy reported to the court
subsequently that Gallahad Press owed over $20,000 Avorth of bills not
included in the $0,000 mortgage that was recorded here.
Mr. Pelley. But that included the ju'eferred stock.
7324 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Yes. That is the preferred stockholder wlio had tiled
claims.
Mr. Pelley. That may be true, Mr. Barker, but the sum total assets
of Gallahad Press was somethino- like $35,000 per year on income
from the publications it published when it was closed down by the
receiver. Now, Avhy did the receivers close that $35,000 a year pub-
lication down ? I mean that is the situation that I have got to face
in Mr. Barker's questions.
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Barker, have you some items or records
concerning the financial support of the Silver Legion direct?
Mr. Barker. Well, Mr. Chairman, the Silver Legion — in my investi-
gation I found one bank account for the Silver Legion — does the Silver
Legion have a bank account now, Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Pelley. No. It has no receipts. It doesn't need them. It is
not operating on that basis,
Mr. Barker. I found one bank account of the Silver Legion.
Mr. Pelley. Pardon me. It does make to the Bureau of Internal
Revenue an annual report of such funds as may have been sent in
to it specifically for its work and has been doing so since 1937.
The Acting Chairman. Do you have any other bank accounts?
You can insert that amount in there.
Mr. Barker. This Silver Shirt Legion had a bank account at Ashe-
ville which opened May 7, 1934. and closed August 10, 1934, with total
deposits of $2,739.45.
[Handing document to the witness.]
Mr. Pelley. I can't identify that. That is after the receivership,
isn't it. I am asking for information.
Mr. Barker. No. I started after the receiver had been appointed
in the State court — pardon me, it started on April 16, 1934, and this
was Harry F. Seiber as treasurer.
Mr. Pelley. What date did you say the receivership was ?
Mr. Barker. The receivership of Gallahad Press was not the receiv-
ership of the Silver Shirt Legion.
Mr. Pelley. You are not talking — or you are talking about the
Silver Shirt Legion ?
Mr. Barker. Yes; April 16, 1934, it started out.
Mr. Pelley. But, ]\Ir. Barker
Mr. Barker. Wait just a minute. Closed August 10, 1934.
Mr. Pelley. Mr. Barker, the receiver of Gallahad Press had siezed
all Silver Shirt Legion assets, chattels, bank accounts, and everything,
and that is what we had the Federal suit before Judge Webb to
separate.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, Judge Webb entered an order at Shelby
on the 8th of May 1934 allowing the Silver Shirt Legion to have pos-
session of its bank account and the funds that were siezed.
Mr. Pelley. In 1934?
Mr. Barker. Yes. He modified his previous order at Asheville.
Mr. Pelley. Why should we have brought suit to separate them
then and that suit wasn't adjudicated until after my trial in Ashe-
ville in 1935?
Mr. Barker. It was not finally adjudicated, but he entered an order
modifying his previous order. You recall that Joe Ford went down
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7325
there and liot a modification so that tlie Silver Shirt Legion got the
income that was received and Seiher deposited it in this bank accomit.
It is prima facie evidence you got it.
Mr. Pelley. Maybe I didn't have anytliing to do with that receiver
business.
Mr. Barker. All right. Now, Mr. Pelley, when Gallahad Press
was wound up in Federal court there \vas $1,300 left to pay about
$20,000 worth of debts.
Mr. Pelley. "Well, 1 don't know wliat they did with the assets, be-
cause I do know that our beautiful furniture there — I would buy
typewriters for $75 and they were closed out at $6 apiece. It looked
like a gutting of our assets and i)utting it way down so they could
say how we bilked the people.
Mr. Barber, You didn't have $20,000 worth of furniture?
Mr. Pelley. No ; but I did have a great deal of beautifully printed
literature. They took that beautifully printed matter I had there
that I i)aid thousands of dollars for and threw it in baskets and called
in the junkman and said, "How much will you give for this?" "Ten
bucks," using his language. My attorney went in and bid $11 for the
pile of papers, and we sorted it out and I sold $7,000 worth the next
year. That is how the assets were just simply scrambled.
Mr. Barber. Now, Mr. Pelley, in your bank accounts in New York,
in Washington. D. C., and in Asheville, N. C, including the $34,362
w-orth of money orders that you cashed at the post-office window^ in
Asheville, there has passed through vour hands from February 7, 1931,
up to June 30. 1939, the sum of $220,932.
Mr. Pelley. All right.
Mr. Barber. Now. after the affairs of the Gallahad Press had been
ajudicated in February
Mr. Peli.ey. That is gross receipts with no deductions of any kind
for any purpose.
]\Ir. Barker. That is your dej^osits in the bank.
Mr. Pelley. That is my deposits in the bank ; yes.
Mr. Barker. After the affairs of Gallahad Press were adjudicated
in Federal court down there to be a bankrupt, the State of North
Carolina then proceeded against you in a criminal action in Buncombe
County court?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
iSIr. Barker. Is that right ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, there was a publication which you had
sent out. Do you identify this publication? [Exhibiting publication
to the witness.]
Mr. Pelley. I do.
Mr. Barker. As having sent that out ?
Mr. Pelley. I do.
Mr. Barker. Now you say here in this publication that —
When his case was finally brought to trial it was proven that he had never
sold a dollar's worth of stock in Nortli Carolina in violation of the blue-sky law
or any other law, and the only thin.i? that the Federal or local rin.c had on
him was his silly, technical failure to ret;ister one of his corporations with the
State authorities for the privilege of doini; business in North Carolina, and bring-
ing thousands of outside dollars annuallv into the State.
7326 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pellet. I maintain that, and that is my position in that litiga-
tion.
Mr. Barker. It is ?
Mr. Pelley. For the simple reason
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley
Mr. Pelley. May I qualify-
Mr, Barker. Wait just a minute, Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Pelley. But you go on to something else, Mr. Barker, and I
don't have an opportunity to tell my side.
Mr. Barker. I will give you an opportunity.
Mr. Pelley. You don't give me an opportunity.
]Mr. Barker. The chairman instructed me to give you an oppor-
tunity and you will have it. Now Mr. Pelley, in addition to being
indicted and convicted, and you were represented by counsel too,
weren't you ?
Mr. Pelley. I was.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Robert H. McNeil of Washington, D. C, repre-
sented you ?
Mr. Pelley. I was.
Mr. Barker. And he is a good attorney. Joe Ford and J. Y. Jordon
and Robert M. Wells, Jr., represented your codefendants who were
Summerville, Kellog, and Hardwicki. They were represented by
counsel too ; is that right?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. It was a jury trial ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And the trial lasted 13 days?
Mr. Pelley. You still haven't
Mr. Barker. Wait a minute.
Mr. Pelley. No; I will not wait a minute. I appeal to you, Mr.
Cliairman. Mr. Barker goes on into other matters and does not give
me an opportunity to tell my side of it.
Mr. Barker. I am going to give him an opportunity.
The Acting Chairman. He says he will and I will instruct him
to do so.
Mr. Barker. I will be through with this in just a moment.
The Acting Chairman. All right.
Mr. Pelley. And by that time we wnll have gone to another subject,
Mr. Chaiinian.
Mr. Barker. We will let you get back to it, Mr. Pelley. Now, the
trial lasted 13 days at a special term of court, didn't it, Mr. Pelley?
Mr. Pelley. It did.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, what you failed to say in here that
in addition to being convicted for this offense or this "silly offense
of having failed to register with the State corporation commission,"
so that you might be permitted to sell stock in the Gallahad Press,
you failed to state in there that you were also convicted on a second
count of the indictment, and that count wasi fraud in advertising
stock — not selling it.
Mr. Pelley. There was no proof anywhere, Mr. Barker, I ever
sold a dollar's worth of stock in North Carolina. Advertising stock
in a concern which was proved to the jury, at least the jury decided
that it was a fraudulent concern. I concur in that, but
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7327
Mr. Barker. Let iiu' usk you a (question?
Mr. Pellet. No ; please let me finish my answer.
The Acting Chairman. Let him answer the question.
Mr. Pelley. Insolvency of that concern depended upon the inven-
tory: and if the inventory had been put in there, it would have made
the concern solvent, and that was the basis for the moot question before
the jury, and the 7 to 10 thousand dollars' worth of printed matter
that I had spent this money for which I am now criticized for, what
is in tangible existence in my <iaraoe and cellar in Beaver Lake, and
it was not brought into the trial and allowed to be presented. If that
had not been the situation, I would not have been convicted of crimi-
nally advertising stock.
That is what I claim is unfair in this presentation, because it makes
it look like I sold — advertised stock in an insolvent concern.
The Acting Chairman. There in no intent on the part of the in-
vestigator to show that. He was merely asking you to state whether
or not you had been convicted and had a trial. Now, of course, your
statement at this time and this hour is nothing more or less than a
self-serving statement. We i)ermitted that in all fairness to you to
let you put that in the record. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mv. Pelley, the statement that you make here in
this publication about your indictment, your trial, and your convic-
tion is incorrect, isn't it ?
Mr. Pelley. No; I maintain it is not when the facts are sifted out
by an impartial, unbiased person or examiner.
^ Mr. Barker. Now. Mr. Pelley
Mr. Pelley. You can't expect me to concur with the jury down there,
Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Here is a certified copy of the indictment and a certified
copy of the judgment — of the Order of the Court. You were con-
victed on two counts of this indictment. There were 16 counts in the
indictment and you were convicted on two, you and Summerville. All
rifJit. Now, on the first count the judge fined you $1.000
The Acting Chairman. Let him answer vour question.
Mr. Barker. That is right, isn't it'i He did fine you $1,000?
Mr. Pellet. That is not my understanding when I entered into the
pavment of the fine.
Mr. Barker. Well, you did i^ay $1,000?
Mr. Pelley. I paid'the $1,000 "fine.
The Acting Chairman. To both of you : I think there is no dispute
about the facts that Mr. Pelley, according to the court records, was
convicted and a fine was imposed and he is out on probation now.
Neither the connnittee nor Mr. Pelley has any right or authority
at this hour, in my judgment, to explain that matter or attempt to
justify or to criticize that action. It is a matter of record.
Mr. Barker. Certainly it is a matter of record, Mr. ChaiiTiian.
The Acting Chairman. All right. Let us pass to something else.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, doesn't your picture hang over in the office
of the Ministry of Propaganda in Germany?
Mr. Pelley. Not to my knowledge. I know nothing about it.
]Mr. Barker. Didn't you receive a request from them for your
picture?
94!>."!1— 40 — vol. 12 9
7328 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. Not that I recall. Anybody can get my picture. They
can buy it for 15 cents.
^Ir. Barker. I mean a special picture.
Mr. Pellet. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Barker. Didn't you receive a request from them for your
picture ?
Mr. Pellet. I can't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. BARiiER. In the very beginning of the organization of this Silver
Legion, Mr. Pelley, didn't you try to enlist certain employees of the
North German Lloyd and Hamburg American Line in your organi-
zation ?
Mr. Pellet. No.
Mr. Barker. You did not ?
Mr. Pellet. Specifically who?
Mr. Barker. Didn't you have in your employ a man by the name of
Paul von Lillienf eld Toal?
Mr. Pellet. You asked if I solicited them. No; I did not. Mr.
Toal was interested in the esoteric work long before he got his job in
New York.
The Acting Chairman. But he did become an employee of yours?
Mr. Pellet. He later became an employee of mine after he quit his
job up there.
Mr. Barker. Before he quit his job w^ith the North German Lloj^d
he was an employee of yours to the extent that whenever you received
a letter in German you sent it up to Mr. Toal to examine it "?
Mr. Pellet. That is correct. I used him as a friend and he trans-
lated them because I don't understand German. But I have the same
thing happen in all other languages.
The Acting Chairman. Do you have inquiries from all over the
world ?
Mr. Pellet. I certainly do, Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. With reference to your esoteric work?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
The Acting Chairman. Do you receive funds or donations from
other portions of the earth, or do you find all of your, shall I say
"clientele," paying clientele, in the United States ?
Mr. Pellet. All in the United States, Mr. Chairman.
The Acting Chairman. Outsiders do not contribute?
Mr. Pellet. I will make one exception to that. There has been
one case of a lady in Switzerland. I think her name is — she goes by
the name of Countess Karaga. But it hasn't amounted in the whole
last 10 years to more than $100.
The Acting Chairman. That wouldn't by any chance be the reason
that you concluded American people were what Barnimi said : " 'A
sucker is born every minute,' and we had plenty of them"?
Mr. Pellet. That is unfair.
The Acting Chairman. Go on, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. All right, sir. Now, Mr. Pelley, after you got
through with the criminal case in North Carolina, and after the
bankruptcy of the Gallahad Press, you started your publishing house
again ?
Mr. Pellet. That is correct.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7329
Mr. Barker. And you opened up a bank account in Asheville,
N. C, with the First National Bank & Trust Co. in the name of H. E.
Martin, one of your employees, didn't you?
Mr. Pelley. That is riiiht.
Mr. Barker. After Martin had deposited about $2,600 in that
account the bank objected to carrying the account in the name of
H. E. IMartin and depositing therein items that were payable to
William Dudley Pelley. That is right.
]\Ir. Pelley. I don't remember, Mr. Barker, but it might have
been.
Mr. Barker. Did Mr. ]Martin report that to you?
Mr. Pelley. He might have.
Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Pelley, you got Joe Ford to incorporate
the Skyland Press in North Carolina, didn't you ?
Mr. Pelley. That was some time later. That was year before
last — 1937. It was incorporated.
Mr. Barker. Yes; it was incorporated.
jNIr. Pelley. That was strictly a printing concern. We were put-
ting in our own physical printing plant.
Mr. Barker. That was incorporated on the 8th day of. September
1937, according to this certificate from the Secretary of State. Is
that right?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. And the three incorporators of that were M. H.
Pelley. That is Minnie Helen Hansman Pelley, isn't it?
]Mr. Pelley. That is my wife.
Ml'. Barker. You married her July 4, 1934, at Asheville?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
]Mr. Barker. And Alfred H. Talpey, who is an employee of yours ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And yourself?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And $100,000 worth of stock was authorized, and the
corporation was to begin business when $1,000 had been subscribed,
is that right?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. And that amount was subscribed, and you started
doing business?
Mr. Pelley. Oh, no; the amount wasn't subscribed.
Mr. Barker. $1,000 was subscribed?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. iVnd then you started doing business under this
charter ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. And that concern is still doing business ?
IMr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. VooRHis. What concern is that?
Mr. Barker. The Skyland Press.
Mr. Pelley. That is our printing concern.
Mr. Barker. This Skyland Press is located in a building down in
Asheville which was formerly the Biltmore in that bank building?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. Yf)u purchased that building for $20,000 from the
Carolina Realtv Co. at Richmond. Va.?
7330 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And the deed is in your name personally ?
Mr. Pellet. That is right,
Mr. Barker. And your home in Asheville is in the name of your
wife ?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
Mr. Barker. But you also signed tlie deed of trust given to the same
concern ?
Mr. Pelley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. For the house?
Mr. Pelley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Now, this incor})oration of the Silver Shirt Legion in
Delaware. The Silver Shirt Legion is still
The Acting Chairman. Mr. Barker, I want to see you for a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Barker. Mr. Pelley, during the last 18 months you have de-
posited about $65,000 in the Wachovia Bank & Trust Co. in the name
of the Skyland Press?
Mr. Pellet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. And you have cashed at the post-office window in Ashe-
ville, N. C, about $31,500 worth of money orders in the last 18 months?
Mr. Pelley. $100,000 in the last 18 months ?
Mr. Barker. $31,500?
Mr. Pelley. You mean the sum total of them is $100,000?
Mr. Barker. No. I say in the last 18 months you have cashed at
the post-office window in Asheville, from September 1937 up until July
1939, you have cashed over $30,000 worth of money orders ?
Mr. Pelley. That is 2 years ?
Mr. Barker. Approximately.
Mr. Pelley. That is i)robably correct. If it is on record there at
the post office, that is correct.
Mr. Barker. And you deposited in the Wachovia Bank & Trust Co.
the sum of approximately $32,000?
Mr. Pellet. There may be a very serious cross check there. That
may be the same money.
Mr. Barker. No. I checked the deposits of cash. Mr. Pelley, and
the deposits of cash in vour bank account amounted to approximately
$21,000.
Mr. Pellet. Nevertheless, that is where it would come from.
Mr. Barker. Where did this $31,000 Avorth of money orders that you
cashed, where did it go?
Mr. Pelley. It went to the payment of bills, all of which is recorded
to the satisfaction of the Bureau of Internal Revenue.
Mr. Barker. Now, a word about that. Haven't you signed a waiver
with the Bureau of Internal Revenue to assess you with any back taxes
you owe, plus interest and taxes, and waived the statute of limitations?
Mr. Pelley. No, sir.
Mr. Barker. Haven't you signed a waiver and told them you would
get your wife to sign a waiver?
Mr. Pelley. I Jiaven't signed it. I have it in my possession at the
present time. I haven't signed it.
Mr. Thomas. That doesn't answer the question. Did you tell them
30U would sign it?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7331
Mr. Pellet. Under advice of counsel that it was the proper thing to
do, 3'es; if that is the proper thin<>- to do. Mr. Tlionias.
Mr, Thomas. Tlien you did ti'll them you would si<>ii it?
Mr. Pblley. But I don't understand what I am <»ettina- into here,
I wisli I coukl have a little enlightenment on it. In other words, there
is no attempt to evade
Mr, Barker. ^Ir. Chairman, I have no further (luestions.
The Acting Chairman. I want lo ask you a (juestion, Mr. Barker.
In the conduct of your investigation of the financial transactions of
Mr. Pelley. the legion and his associated activities, were you able to
ascertain the names of any parties or groups or organizations that
might have been contributing any sums of mone}' to him?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. There is one question I would like to ask
about that. Mr. Pelley, Mr, George B. Fisher, of 420 Lexington
Avemie, Xew York, has sent you considerable sums from time to time?
Mr. Pelley. I testified this morning his gifts over 4 years have been
approximately $20,000, including the money that went on to help pur-
chase this building here, which is not accounted for yet, in 1939.
Mr. Barker. Now. those were gifts in addition to what Miss Sarah C.
Scott sent you?
Mr. Pelley. That is right.
i\Ir. Barker. Well, have you got any other people who have con-
tributed any similar sums?
]Mr. Pelley. No; not anything like that.
Mr. Barker. What is the total membership of the legion right at
this time?
The Acting Chairman. He testified to that. Approximately 25.000
memberships signed by him over a pei'iod of 7 j'ears.
Mr, Pelley. Mr. Chairman, please
The Acting Chairman. Just a moment. That question can be with-
tlrawn for the reason he has already testified to that.
]Mr. Barker. I will withdraw the question.
The Acting Chairman. Have you concluded on that ?
Mr. Pelley. He has asked me a question and I haven't had a chance
to answer. He asked me what became of that money, and that is
awfully important, because it looks as though I took this money and
put it in my pocket and ran wild witli it.
i\fr. Barker. You said you used the money in the conduct of your
business.
The Acting Chairman. In the conduct of your business, paying bills
and expenses and carrying on your work.
Mr. Pelley. All right.
Mr. Casey. Why did you conduct that part of your business on a
cash basis?
Mr. Pelley. Which part, Mr. Casev ?
Mr, Casey. The $30,000 part.
Mr. Pelley. People vsend in to me — if you could understand the
nature of our remittances — they send in large amounts in the accumu-
late by post-office money orders. We have the habit of going up to the
bank every moi-ning and cashing our post-office money orders and
using those as, we might say, a petty cash fund account"! Sometimes
we put it in the bank, if the bank account is low : other times we use
it as cash on the voucher system. Does that answer your question?
7332 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, Casey. The $30,000 over a period of 2 years was petty cash?
Mr, Pellet. Yes; it amounts to that.
Mr. VooRHis. One question, Mr. Chairman,
The Acting Chairman, All right, Mr, Voorhis,
Mr, Voorhis. Did the Silver Shirt Legion members do any — do they
pay dues now, Mr. Pelley ?
Mr. Pelley. No; they do not, Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. Voorhis. They did formerly ?
Mr. Pellet. They did the first 3 or 4 months, and then we were
siccused of running a membership racket, and to drop that stigma I
dropped that some time ago when I made the ruling that people come
c'ome into the legion for nothing if they had no money to pay their way
in or help out. In other words, it made no difference, if a man was
qualified ; he had the right to come in whether he had $10 in his pocket
or $1,000.
Mr. Voorhis. So at present how much would you estimate is actually
paid in by members ?
Mr. Pellet. The G-men — the F. B. I. and I went over that, and we
found it was $637 for last year.
Mr. Caset. Have you also got the addresses of the members of the
Silver Shirt Legion? Do you have their addresses?
Mr, Pellet. No. I testified here at the opening day that I don't
carrj' a roster of the Silver Legion.
Mr. Caset. You have no membership list?
Mr. Pellet. I have no membership list ; no, sir.
Mr. Caset. Is there any requisite that they be subscribers to any of
tliese pamphlets?
Mr. Pellet. No ; there is no requisite at all. I simply want people
interested in the work; good, patriotic, clean Americans and Chris-
tians. There it begins and stands. If that is un-American, I stand
convicted.
Mr. Caset. That is all.
The Acting Chairman. Any other questions ?
-Mr. Voorhis. No.
Mr. Thomas, No.
The Acting Chairman. Mr, Pelley. the record of your testimony
l3efore this committee shows that you have frankly and unblusliirigly
indulged in frequent praise, defense, and emulation"^ of Hitler. I quote
to you a passage of your testimony :
Mr. Stabnes. You purport here to quote with approval * * * the work of
Hitler.
Mr. Pelley. Right.
Mr. Starnes. And his manner of controlling Germany.
Mr. Pexley. Right.
That is a fair sample of the several statements which you have made
to tliis committee.
Furthermore, in close connection with your praise and declared
emulation of Hitler, you have said that your organization, the Silver
Legion of America, has envisaged the possibility and the probability
that citizens of your persuasion "might have to take up arms''' against
a menace which I want to state emphatically is the creature of your
imagination, cind in imaging this menace you have cruelly maligned a
great race which numbers several millions of our citizens. You have
endorsed methods of forcible segregation against this race in plainest
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7333
violation of the simplest rudiments of Americanism. You have de-
clared that vigilante action is, in your mind, not at all an un-American
principle, despite the fact that vioilnntism on any sio;nificant scale
would completely undermine the foundations of orderly and constitu-
tional government.
You have identified the aims of your Silver Legion with those of
the National Socialist Party of German}^ by declaring :
I feel exactly as the Nazi party in Germany felt in regard to Germany, regarding
the Jewish element in our ijopulation ; yes, sir.
In response to a question by the gentleman from Massachusetts, who
asked you if you are anti-Semitic, you declared :
I would call myself very nmch so, Mr. Casey.
You have admitted the fact that you have reprinted in your publica-
tions Nazi material from the World Service. This committee has in its
possession numerous examples of your republication of this scurrilous
propaganda.
In other words, you have by your own mouth established all the most
serious charges which the previous testimony' before this committee has
leveled against 3'ourself and the Silver Legion of America.
"We have concluded our examination of you. You are no longer
under subpena. You are at liberty to go. I declare the committee
adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 45 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
MONDAY, MARCH 25, 1940
House of Representatives,
Special Committee To Investigai'e Un-American Activities.
Washington^ D. C.
The Special Committee to Investi^rate Un-American Activities met
ill the caucus room of the House Office Buildino:, Washington, D. C,
at 10 p. m., the Honorable Martin Dies, chairman, presiding.
Those present were Martin Dies (presiding), John J. Dempsey, Joe
Starnes. Noah M. Mason, J. Parnell Thomas, H. Jerry Voorhis, and
Joseph E. Casey.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
This hearing was set for 10 o'clock, and the Chair has waited until
a quarter after. The Chair wants to announce that in the future,
witnesses who appear before this committee will be expected to be
courteous and responsive. That implies that the committee is going
to be courteous to every witness; but any witness who appears in
the future and undertakes to insult the connnittee or to volunteer
information that is not called for. is going to be held to account.
Through necessity, by reason of the fact that we have no quorum
present, the Chair will have to resolve this for the time being into
a subcommittee composed of Mr. Dempsey, Mr. Thomas, and the
Chair, until we can get a quorum present.
STATEMENT OF JAMES HULSE DOLSEN, MEMBER OF THE
COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES
The Chairman. IVIr. Dolsen, will you stand and be sworn.
(Thereupon. ]\Ir. Dolsen was sworn.)
The Chairman. ]Mr. Lynch, you may proceed with the examination
of the witness.
Mr. Lynch. Will you give us your full name, please?
Mr. Dolsen. James H. Dolsen.
The Chairman. We now have a quorum present, and we are now
meeting as a full committee.
Mr. Lynch. And the "H" stands for Hulse, does it not, Mr, Dol-
sen?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
]\Ir. Lynch. And your address, please?
Mr. Dolsen, 1413 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh.
Mr. Lynch. How long have you resided at that address in Pitts-
burgh ?
7335
7336 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. About over 2 years.
Mr. Lynch. And before that date where did you reside?
Mr. DoLSEN. Different places in Pittsburgh.
The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder, please; it is difficult
to hear.
Mr. Lynch. How long have you resided in Pittsburgh, altogether?
Mr. DoLSEN. From about 1936 on.
Mr. Lynch. To date ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And prior to 1936 where did you reside?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, in different places.
Mr. Lynch, Where, primarily?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I was in New York Citv for about a month.
Mr. Lynch. In 1936?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Where were you before then ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was abroad.
Mr. LvNCH.Where abroad?
Mr. DoLSEN. In China and in the Soviet Union.
Mr. Lynch. When were you in China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was in China from about 1927 on until about 1931.
Mr. Lynch. From 1927 to 1931?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And when were you in Russia ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was in Russia about 1931 to 1935.
Mr. Lynch. Do you recall what part of 1927 you arrived in China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I think that that was probably May or June,
I believe.
Mr. Lynch. Are you sure of that year, that it was in 1927?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am quite sure that it was iii 1927.
Mr. Lynch. And what was your occupation while in China ?
Mr, DoLSEN. I was there to be in charge of, or I was editor in
Peking, of a Kuo ]Min Tang national newspaper.
Mr. Lynch. What was the policy of that newspaper ?
Mr. DoLSEN. To support the Kuo Min Tang Party in China.
The Chairman. Wliat sort of a newspaper was that that you were
the editor of?
Mr. DoLSEN. A newspaper that was supporting Kuo Min Tang,
that is the Nationalist Party of China, it was the party that is now
in control of most of China.
The Chairman. I see, the National Party, and that was the official
organ ?
Mr. DoLSEN. It w^as in Peking.
Mr. Lynch. That was a Communist Party at that time, was it?
Mr. DoLSEN. It was not,
Mr, Lynch. Were you attempting to make it a Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. Were you a Communist then?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was.
Mr. Lynch. You are now?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch, And what is your party name? .
Mr. Dolsen. My party name is James H. Dolsen.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7337
Mr. LY^'CH. How long have you been going under that name of
James H. Dolsen in the party?
Mr. DoLSEN. All of my life.
Mr. Lynch. I show you a (^ommunist Party card of the United
States, No. 69040, and ask you if that is your book.
Mr. DoLSEN. That is not my book.
;Mr. Lynch. Was that not given to you at the time you were served
with a subpena to appear here before this committee?
Mr. DoLSEN. Did you ask me if it was given?
Mr. Ly^nch. I am asking you if it was not given to you. or in
your i-oom in your possession at the time that you were served with
a subpena i
Mr. DoLSEN, That is correct.
Mr. Ly'nch. And you were occupying that room exclusively at
that time, were you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Ly'Nch. And that was together with your other papers?
Mr. DoLSEN, It was with some other papers, different papers.
Mr. Ly"nch. And you did not have any other Communist Party^
book there, membership book, did you, except this one?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know whether there were an}^ others or not.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know whether you had any others or not ?:
Mr. DoLSEN. I told you that I had this book there, and I do not
know if there were any others or not.
Mr. Lynch. This was your book?
Mr. DoLSEN. I stated it was not my book.
Mr. Lynch. Whose book is it?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not care to state. It is under the luime of
Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Mr. Ly'nch. I am asking you to state whose book that is.
Mr. DoLSEN. I am stating that I do not know whose book it is.
Mr. Ly'nch. You just said a moment ago that you did not care
to state. Do you know who it is or not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not laiow whose book that is, all I know is that
the name is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Mr. Lynch. When did you get this book ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not care to state that.
Mr. Lynch. I will ask the Chair to require the witness to state
when he received this book. He said that he did not care to state
when he received it.
The Chairman. You will have to answer questions, that is a
material cjuestion, and you will have to answer that question.
]\Ir. DoLSEN. I object on the ground that it is not material. I am
acting as my owm attorney in this case, my ow^n counsel.
The Chairman. What objection do you raise to answering that
question ?
Mr. Doi.sEN. On the ground it is immaterial to this case. I have
stated my membership in the Conmiunist Party so that it has nothing^
to do with it.
The Chairman. We will hold that in abeyance for a while until
you complete your examination, and we will come back to it.
Mr. Starnes. I would like to see it, and I may want to ask a
question about it.
7338 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Did you subscribe to the Earl Browder Defense Fund?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did.
Mr. Lynch. And is that the paster that was put in the book as a
result of jour subscription ?
Mr. DoLSEN. It was not the paster that was put in my book.
Mr. Lynch. Where is your book?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not care to state.
The Chahiman. You will have to answer these questions, that is a
material question that is being asked you, and there is no reason
why you cannot answer that question.
Mr. DoLSEN. If you please, I have already stated that I am a
member of the party, so I insist that it is innnaterial. Yoti have
on record that I am a member of the Communist Party.
The Chairman. We will hold that in abeyance until we get
through.
(The membership book referred to above was marked "Exhibit
No.l.")
Mr. Lynch. Are you paid up in your dues to date in the Com-
mimist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I have paid up my dues.
Mr. Lynch. How long have you been a member in the Communist
Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I have been a member since it was formed.
Mr. Lynch. When was that?
Mr. Doi.sEN. That was formed as a result of the split in the 1919
Socialist Party Convention in Chicago.
Mr. Lynch. And you have been an active member since that time?
Mr. DoLSEN. I have been an active member.
Mr. Lynch. Have you held any position in the party in this
country ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I have been district organizer.
Mr. Lynch. Where?
Mr. DoLSEN. In San Francisco.
Mr. Lynch. When?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was about 1921.
Mr. Lynch. For how long a period of time were you district
organizer there?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was district organizer there for about a year or
a year and a half.
Mr. Lynch. What compensation did you receive as such?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I do not recall exactly, but it was not very
much.
Mr. Lynch. Can you say as near as you can what is was?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I could not say except so far as I recall it
was three or four dollars a week, about enough to live on.
Mr. Lynch. Did you have any other employment at the time?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did not.
Mr. Lynch. Did you receive any other compensation from the
Com m u n i st P a r t y ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did not.
Mr. Lynch. Or any of its affiliates?
Mr. DoLSEN. Not that I recall.
Mr. Lynch. That is the only time that you ever held any position
in the Communist Party?
UN-AMERICA X PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7339
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I have held other positions in the Communist
Party.
Mr. Lynch. What other positions have you held?
Mr. Doi.SKN. I am literature agent in the Comiiiunist Party in
Pittsburgh at the present time.
Mr. Lynch. For how long a period have you been literature agent ?
Mr. DoLSEN. About 4 months.
Mr. Lyxch. Your duties as such are to send literature to various
persons who are members of the party in and around Pittsburgh and
other locations?
Afr. DoLSEN. No; my duties are to supph' literature to branches of
the party and to sections of the party.
Mr. Lynch. Where would they be located?
Mr. DoLSEN. Different parts of western Pennsylvania.
I\Ir. Lynch. And what sort of literature do you supply to them?
Mr. DoLSEN. Literature which is officially issued by the Comnmnist
Party.
Mr. Lynch. And you receive compensation for that work?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not.
Mr. Lynch. How are you employed ? Were you ever on the central
committee?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. Or the national committee?
^Ir. DoLSEN. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. Or the control commission?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was not.
]Mr. Lynch. How are you employed now ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am not employed.
Mr. Lynch. How long has it been since you were employed?
Mr. DoLSEN. Since I got discharged from the W. P. A. under the
18 months ruling.
Mr, Lynch. When was that?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was last September.
Mr. Lynch. September of 1939?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. And you had been working for the W. P. A. for 18
months prior thereto?
Mr. DoLSEN. More than that, slightly over 2 years.
Mr. Lynch. And for what was your position with the W. P. A.?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was a teacher on the workers' education project.
Mr. Lynch. A teacher on tlie workers' education project?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And those duties required you to do what?
Mr. DoLSEN. Teach groups of trade unionists and unemployed.
Mr. Lynch. A'^Hiat would you teach them?
Mr. DoLSEN. Whatever they wanted to be taught. I might explain
it this way.
Mr. Lynch. Let me ask you this. Would they make the requests
as to what they wished to learn, or would you take and formulate
the program (
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I will have to, if you will allow me. explain it.
Mr. Lynch. Answer that (juestion first, if you please.
Mr. DoLSEN. But I have to explain, do yoii not see, because I was
a teacher on a project, and the policy and the methods used on the
7340 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
project were outlined by the man in charge of the project, and I
fitted in with whatever they outlined.
Mr. Lynch. And the man in charge of the project was who?
Mr. DoLSEN. He was a Mr. Wicker, there was a Mr. Wicker who
was in charge of the project for a while, and the present man in
charge of the project is, I do not recall his name, but I will recall
that.
Mr. Barker. Tliat is Mr. C. V. Wicker.
Mr. Lynch. Were any of those persons that you have just men-
tioned or the persons named who you were able to recall, are they
members of the Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever discuss it with them ?
iNIr. DoLSEN. I did not.
Mr. Lynch. You never discussed it with them at all ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not discuss with the director of the project
w^hat his politics are, nor what party he belongs to, that is not a very
"v^'ise thing to do.
Mr. Lynch. How many students would you have under you, Mr.
Dolsen, while you would be teaching ?
Mr. DoLSEN. If the committee please, I would like to be informed
.as to what the purpose of all of these questions are. Is this going
to be a fishing expedition ? I do not see that it has any connection.
The Chairman. Mr. Dolsen, it is not a question for you to deter-
mine whether that has any connection with it. It is your duty to
answer these questions, that is your duty to answer these questions.
It certainly is material to find out what you did while 3'ou were
an instructor on a W. P. A. project, and how many people you were
in contact with, and other matters pertinent to that.
Mr. DoLSEN. Mr. Chairman, if I may ask a question, since I am
my own counsel here, and since I am not familiar with all of the
details and the regulations of a congressional conmiittee, I would
like to know in the first place if I am on trial here for any offense,
and secondly I would like to know what my rights are before this
committee, if I have any.
The Chairman. You are not on trial for anything. You are here
to answer questions, and to give this committee information. The
committee has certain documents that it subpenaed from you, and in
those documents they find certain matters that we want to question
3"ou about.
We find, for instance, that for a long period you were an instructor
on a W. P. A. project, and we find in your files empty file sheets, or
-whatever you call them, in which you marked the words "contacts,"
and various other things, and the contents of these things are all
<^one. and you had those files with you while you were an instructor
'on the W. P. A., and naturally we want to find out what the full
iacts are.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well. I would like to ask this question. I was served
Avitli a subpena, what Mr. Barker called a subpena duces tecum, as
a result of which he stated that he had the authority to bring me
here before a meeting of this committee, and that he had authority
to take those matters which were records of the Comnnniist Party, is
that correct?
The Chairman. That is correct.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7341
Mr. DoLSEN. Now, I would like to call the attention of this com-
mittee to the fact that Mr. Barker took matters which I think with
hardly a single exception had nothing to do with the Communist
Party, and were not records of the Communist Party, and I would
like to have these produced and I can identify them, that they have
nothing whatsoever to do with the Conmiunist Party.
The Chairman. That will be developed in the course of the exami-
nation. AVe have the documents here, and they speak for themselves.
Let us proceed.
Mr. Lynch. How many students would you have, Mr. Dolsen.
Mr. DoLSEN. I have had different numbers of students, some of the
classes were very small and some were fairly large.
Ml". Lynch. Give us an approximate average of students,
Mr. DoLSEN. About 6 or 7, perhaps, to 15 or sixteen.
^Ir. Lynch. Would you be with those persons every day, teaching
them ?
Mr. DoLSEx. No.
Mr. Lyxch. How often?
Mr. DoLSEX. AVell, these classes ran according to a schedule that
was arranged b}' the director of the project, generally the class met
once a week, for perhaps an hour, between an hour and 2 hours,
sometimes a little bit longer.
Mr. Lyxch. Your particular subject was what?
Mr. DoLSEN. ISIy responsibility was to teach whatever I was as-
signed to teach that was within what was considered the scope of
workers' education, the scope of workers' education including such
matters as parliamentary law, trade-union history, tlie history of the
American labor movement, and matters of that kind, although if a
group of workers asked for any general subject we were supposed to
be able to go out and teach it. Some of them were discussion groups,
for example.
Mr. Lyxch. And the question of communism came up during those
discussions, did they not ?
]Mr. DoLSEX. They did not, as a subject of any class.
]\Ir. Lyxch. Did they come up as a subject for consideration be-
tween you and any of the students?
Mr. DoLSEX. It was not my policy to teach communism in the
class.
Mr. Lyxch. I did not ask you what your policy was, I am asking
you Avhether the question came up between you and the students.
Mr. DoLSEN. Sometimes a student would ask a question about
comnumism.
Mr. Lyxch. You would discuss it with him?
Mr. DoLSEX. I would not.
Mr. Lyxch. Would you answer his question ?
Mr. DoLSEX. I would tell him that if he wanted to find out about
comnumism. he could go to the library and get books on communism.
Mr. Lyxch. Would you refer and recommend the kind of books
that he would read?
Mr. DoLSEX. I would not.
Mr. Lyxch. Have you ever recommended them?
Mr. DtiLsEX. Except this, that if he was interested he could go
to the Communist Party and get books to read.
7342 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Did you tell tliem where he could go and get thoso
books ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did not.
Mr. Mason. I am somewhat confused with his duties or responsi-
bilities as a relief worker. Do I understand that he was required
or it was his duty or that he earned his money on this relief project
as a teacher ; he was employed in that capacity ?
Mr. Lynch. That is correct, as I understand it.
Mr. Mason. In that capacity he claims that he was required to
teach the theory and practices of trade-unionism ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
]Mr. DoLSEN. That was among the subjects. There were other
subjects, but they were along trade-union lines.
Mr. Lynch. Wliat were the other subjects?
Mr. DoLAN. The history of the American labor moA^ement.
Mr. Lynch. What else?
Mr. DoLSEN. Parliamentary law.
Mr. Lynch. Anything else?
Mr. DoLSEN. Economics, but I was not one of the teachers on
economics, I had nothing to do with that.
Mr. Lynch. Were you a teacher on parliamentary law?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. You are a lawyer?
Mr. DoLSEN. I had a year in law school.
Mr. Lynch. Where?
Mr. DoLSEN. Northwestern University.
Mr. Lynch. When?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was about 1914, I think.
Mr. Lynch. Were you also a teacher over in Russia?
Mr. DoLSEN. I taught a workers group there in Russia.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. DoLSEN. I t^^i^ght a group of workers in Russia?
Mr. Lynch. What were you teaching them?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was teaching on the American labor history.
]Mr. Lynch. You speak Russian?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes. I could at one time.
Mr. Lynch. That was from 1931 to 1935 ?
Mr. DoLSEN. About that time.
The Chairman. From 1931 to 1935 you were an instructor in
Russia?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; I was not an instructor.
The Chairman. That is what I am trying to get.
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; I was in Russia at that time.
The Chairman. How were you earning your living while you were
there?
Mr. DoLSEN. Most of the time I was in what they call the Interna-
tional Red Aid.
The Chairman. And you taught some of the workers the American
labor movement, the history of the American labor movement?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairman. Where did you teach them, at regular classes that
they had?
Mr. DoLSEN. An evening group; it was an evening class.
The Chairman. You are a graduate of a university, are you not?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7343
]\Ir. DoLSEN. I had 2 years in Beloit C()llej>;e, in Wisconsin.
The Chairman. Did you not o'o to some other college?
Mr. DoLSEN. I stated that I had a yeai- in Northwestern University
law school, in (liicago.
The CuAiiniAX. You came back to this country in 1935?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
INIr. Lynch. The International Labor Defense is a section of the
Red Aid, is it not, Mr. Dolsen (
JNIr. DoLSEN. I believe it is a fraternal affiliate, yes.
Mr. Lynch. And were you connected with any particular university
or school over in Russia while you were teaching?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Lynch. Who made the assignments for you ?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, the International Red Aid itself, that is, in
other words, you see. if a group of workers, Russian workers, wanted
to learn something about the American labor movement, they would
request the organization to supply them with a teacher, and since I
was an American and had been active in the Amerian labor move-
ment, natui-ally I was sent several times for that purpose.
Mr. Lynch. Were you ever a labor organizer in this country?
Mr. Dolsen. I was not a labor organizer in the trade imion sense,
that is of organizing a labor union as such.
^Ir. Lynch. In \\'hat sense were you an organizer?
Mr. Dolsen. In that I was an organizer in the Communist move-
ment, and in the old Socialist Party,
jMr. Lynch. And you refer to the labor movement and the Com-
munist movement together, regarding them as one?
Mr. Dolsen. They are not synonymous, I certainly do not regard
them as synonymous.
Mr. Lynch. In what sense would you say that you were a labor
organizer?
Mr. Dolsen. In the sense that I was since my membership in the
Socialist Party in 1909, I was always a very active member of the
Socialist Party, and in my membership in the Communist Party
since 1919 I was always an active member in the Communist Party.
Mr. Lynch. I am asking you about your association with the
labor movement, what qualifications did you have to teach Russians
the American labor movement (
Mr. Dolsen. Because I had taught the history of the American
labor movement in this country, and I had taken a part in it.
]Mr. Lynch. Where had you taken part, or where had you taught
the history of the American labor movement in this country?
]\Ir. Dolsen. In San Francisco.
^Ir. Lynch. What years?
Mr. Dolsen. That was the same period when I was a Communist
organizer there, 1920 to 1921.
Mr. Lynch. You were working both together, as a Communist
organizer and lecturer in the labor movement in San Francisco?
IMr. Dolsen. I would not say that I was working them together, I
gave lectures on the American labor movement and I was a Com-
munist organizer at tliat time.
Mr. Lynch. Did you attempt to organize the persons that you
were coming in contact with in the labor movement, they are the
only people you would come in contact with, is that not so?
94931 iO — vol. 12 10
7344 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. At those classes?
Mr. Lynch. What unions did you ever work in here, in tliis
country '(
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I have been a member of the oftice workers'
union.
Mr. Lynch. What else?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was a member of the teachers' union.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know the initials, T. U. U. L., and T. U. E. L.']
Mr. DoLSEN. I do.
Mr. Lynch. What are they?
Mr. DoLSEN. The T. U. U. L. is the Trade Union Unity League.
Mr. Lynch. Were you ever affiliated with them?
Mr. Dolsen. I was never affiliated with them.
Mr. Lynch. And how about the T. U. E. L. ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is the Trade Union Educational League.
Mr. Lynch. Were you ever affiliated with them ?
Mr. Dolsen. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. You never had anv contact with them ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; I did.
Mr. Lynch. What was your contact with them ?
Mr. Dolsen. I knew some of the workers in them.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever discuss their movement with them?
Mr. Dolsen. Sure, I did.
Mr. Lynch. And you assisted them whenever you could?
Mr. Dolsen. I discuss it with them.
Mr. Lynch. Who paid you while you were in Russia?
Mr. Dolsen. The International Red Aid.
Mr. Lynch. Is that controlled by the Communist Party?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, it all depends upon what you mean by control.
Mr. Lynch. You know what that word means in its ordinary
sense ?
Mr. Dolsen. Let me explain how the International Red Aid is
formed, and then you will understand. The International Red Aid.
for instance, we have the American Labor Defense in this country,
which was a fraternal affiliate in this country, and in France there
would be another affiliate, and in England, and so forth, and the
American Labor Defense, and in other countries, and that was the
central organization.
The Chairman. In other words, let me clarify that, you had in
this country the International Labor Defense, and you had a similar
organization in France and in England and all of them were affiliated
with the International Red Aid in Moscow, and they were sections
of the International Red Aid in Moscow, is that correct ?
Mr. Dolsen. They were sections in the same manner that you
have an International Chamber of Commerce, I think it meets in
Rome, and the American Chamber of Commerce has a relationship
to that, and so do all of the other chambers of commerce as I under-
stand it.
The Chairman. What you did was to represent the International
Labor Defense of the United States on the International Red Aid in
Moscow ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. What pay did you receive ?
INIr. Dolsen. Well, I was paid in rubles, I think about 150 rubles.
UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7345
Mr. Lynch. Corresponding to how many dollars?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know, because there is no way that you can
compare them.
Mr. Lynch. Is that a o;ood salary in Russia ?
Mr. DoLSEN. It is considered about a medium salary.
Mr. Lynch. Were vou eneaged in that work all the time that
you were in Eussia from 1931 to 1935 ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Did you have any other work that you did there or
any other contacts that you made?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Lynch. Were you in contact with the leaders of the Com-
munist Party there durino; that period of time?
Mr. Dolsen. Well. I knew some of the individuals, some of the
individual lower-c;rade leaders, as vou miffht call them.
Mr. Lynch. Did you discuss with them the movement of the Com-
munist Party in this country ? That is wliat efforts were being made
to push it in this country?
]Mr. Dolsen. I did not discuss it with them because my knowledge
of Russian was not good enough so that I could discuss such matters.
Mr. Lynch. Some of those fellows speak English, do they not?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes, but they did not discuss those matters with me.
Mr. Lynch. Let us go to China. You were there from 1927 to
1931 ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. What other duties did you have besides this connec-
tion with this paper?
Mr. Dolsen. I was the representative of the International Red Aid
in China.
Mr. Lynch. And were you paid by Russia during that period of
time ?
Mr. Dolsen. I was paid by the International Red Aid.
The Chairman. You mean the International Red Aid of the LTnited
States, or the ISIoscow association ? Which one paid 3^ou ?
Mr. Dolsen. You see, the International Red Aid is the organization
which has its headquarters in Moscow, and that is the central body
of all of these others, you see, and that was the one which paid me.
The Chaiuman. That is what I wanted to know.
Mr. Lynch. Who were you associated with in China ?
Mr. Dolsen. I was associated with a number of people.
Mr. Lynch. Who.
]Mr. Dolsen, I was associated witli a couple of people named
Prohni. in Peking.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know their first names?
Mr. Dolsen. I have forgotten what their first name was, it was a
woman and her husband.
Mr. Lynch. Were they Americans?
Mr. Dolsen. I think that they were Americans.
]\Ir. Lynch. Was she a Communist ?
Mr. Dolsen. No, not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. Was he ?
Mr. Dolsen. No, he was not.
Mr. Lynch. Do vou know?
7346 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Have you ever read Vincent Sheean's Personal
History, in which this woman was discussed?
Mr. DoLSEN. I never read it, I only saw one paragraph where I
think my name was mentioned.
The Chairman. Do you not know that she was discussed in there
as an outstanding Communist ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know, because as I said I did not read the
book.
The Chairman. You just saw the paragraph in which your name
was mentioned?
Mr. DoLSEN. My attention was called to it.
The Chairman. Who called your attention to it ?
Mr, DoLSEN. I have forgotten.
Mr. Lynch. "VVlio else were you associated with in China?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was associated with the representative of the Chinese
Eed Aid.
Mr. Lynch. I mean what Americans were you there associated
with ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I was not particularly associated with any
Americans there.
Mr. Lynch. I do not care about "particularly." "\^Tiat Americans
were you associated with there?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know what Americans; I do not know that
I was associated with any.
Mr. Lynch. Did you meet any there to discuss communism with
them?
Mr. DoLSEN. No, sir; I did not discuss communism with anybody
there at that time.
Mr. Lynch. Did you know any American Communists there?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not think so.
Mr. Lynch. Can you give us the name of an}- Americans that you
did know in Peking?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; because I did not associate with them.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know a party by the name of Grace Hutchins?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know her ; I know who she is.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever talk with her ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I believe that I did at one time, but I did not know
who it was.
Mr. Lynch. You mean to say that you talked with people you
do not know who they are ?
Mr. DoESEN. At that time I did not know who she was.
Mr. Lynch. You mean the time that 3'ou talked with her in
China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; as a matter of fact I did not have any recol-
lection but she wrote me afterward that she had met me.
Mr. Lynch. I show you the letter on the stationery of the Labor
Research Association, signed by Grace Hutchins, and ask you if you
received that?
• Mr. DoLAN. That is right ; I did.
Mr. Lynch. I wish to read this into the record.
Mr. DoLSEN. I would like to state at this time in regard to that,
I liave personally no recollection of it.
Mr. Lynch. Well, I will ask you about that in a moment.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7347
This is on the stationery of the Labor Research Association, 8 East
Eleventh Street, New York City, dated January 15, 1940. It is
addressed to James H. Dolsen, 1413 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Dear Friend :
Mr. Dolsen. Just before he reads that letter, I would like to ob-
ject to it.
The Chaieman. They are jioingr to ask you some questions about it.
Mr. Dolsen. But he'liad the authority under the subpena only to
bring certain records.
The Chairman. You Avill have to comply with the rules of the
committee. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
We are very much interested in jour letter of January 12, and in the good
use you are able to make of the article on foreign holdings in Finland from
our Economic Xotes. Do you remember Anne Rochester and me in Peking in
192GV You helped us so much to make contact with labor men and women
in China that we are only too glad to make the small return of seeing that
you get Economic Notes regularly. Some of the friends from Pittsburgh told
us they knew you there, and it was good to know that you are still active.
Do let us hear from you from time to time.
With appreciation for all you did in helping us along our way.
Fraternally,
Grace Hutchins,
Labor Research Association.
I will ask you if you know Anne Rochester?
Mr. Dolsen. I did not.
Mr. Lynch. And did you write to Grace Hutchins ?
Mr. Dolsen. I did. Pardon me, I did not write to Grace Hutchins.
Mr. Lynch. When she says here, "We are very much interested in
your letter of January 12," what was she referring to ?
Mr. Dolsen. She was referring to a letter which I had sent to
Economic Notes, enclosing a clipping from a Pittsburgh newspaper
which contained a letter I had written in regard to the Finnish
situation, and wherein the editor of the Pittsburgh Press had printed
a reference to the Economic Notes, or Labor Notes, I forget which it
was, and I sent this letter to them suggesting that perhajjs under
the circumstances they would be willing to place me on a list of sub-
scribers for their publication.
Mr. Lynch. That letter was addressed to Grace Hutchins?
]Mr. Dolsen. It was not.
Mr. Lynch. It was addressed' to Labor Research Association?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Did this letter of Grace Hutchins when received by
you refresh your recollection of your contact and association with
them in China ?
Mr. DcjLSEN. It did not.
Mr. Lynch. And you do not know what she was referring to when
she said you were of such great assistance to them in China helping
them along their way?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not recall it at all, and in fact I remarked to
somebody else that I did not know or had not met her so far as I
know, and did not know what she was talking about.
iNIr. Lynch. Who did you remark that to?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not care to state that.
7348 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Did you help anybody make labor contacts while
you were in China?
Mr. DoLSEN. Not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. And you do not recall now when she says that you
were helping to make contacts with labor men and women in China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not recall.
Mr. Lynch. Your letter of January 12 was a letter, as I understand
it, a general letter, written to one of the newspapers in which you
protested the aid to Finland, is that correct ?
Mr. DoLSEN. It is among the material which I believe that Mr.
Barker took there, it was in that along the side there.
Mr. Lynch. I am asking you whether the letter of January 12
referred to in Miss Hutchins' letter is a letter by you to a newspaper
in which you protested aid given to Finland?
Mr. DoLSEN. Absolutely,
Mr. Lynch. Do you know now Avhether or not these two women,
Anne Rochester and Miss Hutchins, are members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not.
Mr. Lynch. Is the Labor Research Association affiliated with the
Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. It is not, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Lynch. It has the same objects, does it not?
Mr. DoLSEN. It has not.
Mr. Lynch. What is the object of the Labor Research Association?
Mr. DoLSEN. You will have to ask them.
Mr. Lynch. You do not know ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. Well, you know in reading the literature of the Com-
munist Party that the name of Anne Rochester and Grace Hutchins
are frequently mentioned?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know that, because I had not noticed it.
Mr. Lynch. You had never heard of them before until you received
this letter?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is not what I said.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever hear of them before ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. You know of them to be Communists ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not.
Mr. Lynch. In what relation or Avhat respect do you know them?
Mr. DoLSEN. Anne Rochester wrote a book called Rulers of Amer-
ica.
Mr. Lynch. And Grace Hutchins did what?
Mr, DoLSEN. She is one of the editors of that Research Association.
Mr, Lynch. That is the way you know them ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. The Rulers of America, that is communistic in its
tendencies or not?
Mr. DoLSEN. It is not. The Rulers of America, if you wish me
to explain it, is a list of those families and those individuals who
run and own this country, because they are the billionaires of the
country, Morgan and the rest of that outfit.
Mr. Lynch. Well, was not Grace Hutchins the treasurer of the
Communist Party campaign in 1936?
UX-AMEUICAN rROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7349
Mr. DoLSEK. I do not know.
Mr. Lynch. You are active in politics, are yon not?
Mr. DoLSEN. SomeAvhat.
Mr. Lynch. You are running now at the present time to be a
member of the leoislature of the State of Pennsylvania, are you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is correct.
Mr. Lynch. "Who is jour campaign manager?
Mr. DoLSEN. What is that?
Mr. Lynch. Who is your campaign manager?
Mr. DoLSEN. My campaign manager is Ben Careathers.
IMr. Lynch. And his address?
Mr. DoiiSEN. 305 Seventh Avenue, Pittsburgh.
]Mr. Lynch. Are you also attempting to run for the United States
Senate or any Laiited States office?
J\Ir. DoLSEN. I have not had that honor yet.
Mr. Lynch. Are you now or have you been associated or affiliated
with the International Workers Order?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am a member of the International Workers Order.
Mr. Lynch. Are you now associated with or a member of or in
any way connected with the International Labor Defense?
Air. DoLSEN. I am not.
ISIr, Lynch. The same question with relation to the Workers
Alliance ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am a member of the Workers Alliance.
Mr. Lynch. The same question, only it would be "were," as to the
American League for Peace and Democracy?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. The same question with regard to the Consumers
Union ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. The same question with regard to Friends of the
Soviet Union?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. The same question with regard to the Spanish refu-
gees-relief campaign ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. You never had any part — did you ever take any part
directly or indirectly with regard to the Spanish relief campaign?
Mr. DoLSEN. I made a donation to them.
Mr. Lynch. How much?
yir. DoLSEN. I think it was 50 cents or something.
Mr. Lynch. How about the Friends of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade ?
]\rr. DoLSEN. T made a donation to them.
Mr. Lynch. How about New America?
^Ir. DoLSEN. No.
>[r. Lynch. How about the Y. A. N. C. Club of Pittsburgh, are
you a member of that ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I never heard of such a club.
Mr. Lynch. Are you secretary of the Workers' Alliance of Al-
leghany County?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
]Mr. Lynch. Were you?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was.
7350 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. When were you ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was secretary-treasurer until about 6 months ago.
Mr. Lynch. And how long did you hold that position^
Mr. DoLSEN. About 21/2 years.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know Nicholas Dozenberg?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think that I know him.
Mr. Lynch. You know that you know him, do you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I beg your pardon, I stated that I thought that I
knew him.
Mr. Lynch. Where did you know him?
iSIr. DoLSEN. I think that I knew him in the Daily Worker in
Chicago years ago.
Mr. Lynch. Did you not know him in Chicago, also ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. What is that?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I did not.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever see him in China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. Lynch. And how long has it been since you have seen or
talked to Mr. Dozenberg?
Mr. DoLSEN. That has been many years, all that I have a re-
collection of is his having been business manager of the Daily
Worker in Chicago, it must have been 1923 or 1924.
Mr. Lynch. Are au}^ members of your family engaged in com-
munistic work ?
Mr. DoLSEN. They are not, so far as I know, because I have been
separated from them for many years.
Mr. Lynch. By the way, do you not have a sister that lives in
Bend, Oreg. ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mv. Lynch. Is that not the same place where Dozenberg was
cajitured and arrested?
iSIr. DoLSEN. That is where it was, according to the newspapers
he was.
Mr. Lynch. That is what?
Mr. DoLSEN. According to the newspapers.
Mr. Lynch. That is a very small town?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know, I never was there.
Mr. Lynch. Your sister's full name is what?
Mr. DoLSEN. Harriet Vandenverg, I believe that is the name of
hei- husband.
Mr. Lynch. And you have some cousins who are affiliated with
the Comnuniist organization.
Mr. DoLSBN. I do not know that I have got any cousins.
Mr. Lynch. You do not know that you have got any cousins?
Mr. DoLSEN. Not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. You hold a membership certificate in the International
Workers Order, Inc.?
Mr. DoLSEN. Do I hold a membership certificate in it?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. DoLSEN. No, I am a member of it, I do not hold any member-
ship cei'tificate,
Mr. Lynch. What is that Workers Order, the International Work-
ers Order?
UN-AMERirAX PUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7351
Mr. DoLSEN. Tliat is a fratei-nnl insurance society.
Mr. Lynch. And you hold a policy in tluit?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. For how much?
Mr. DoLSEN. $2,000. I think.
Mr. Lynch. And when did you take that out, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. DoLSEN. I took that out" about 1938 or 1984.
Mr. Lynch. That is it, is it not. made out to James Dolsen?
Mr. Dolsen. That is ri^ht.
Mr. Lynch. And this certificate that is the membership certificate,
is it not?
Mr. Dolsen. That is riirht.
Mr. Lynch. It says hei-e, "The above conditions complied with,
the said International Workers Order. Inc.. hereby promises to bind
itself to pay "
Mr. Dolsen. I insist on my ri<rhts before this committee, this has
nothing to do with the Communist Party, and this connnittee has no
authority under the subpena to take it.
I refuse to testify any further on that ground, I am speaking as
my attorney and as my counsel now. and I pointblank refuse, that
has nothing to do with the Communist Party, and your subpena stated
the records of the Communist Party, and I object to this, and I want
to know if I am going to have any rights before this committee or not.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that if he refuses to answer
that, the matter be referred to the district attorney's office for appro-
priate procedure under the statute, where a witness is called before
a committee and refuses to answer, the chairman of the committee
can refer the matter to the district attorney's office for appropriate
action in the courts.
Mr. Dolsen. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know, and again I
ask you, and I asked you previously, if I have any rights before this
committee, and as I understand it a connnittee of this kind has got
authority to question regarding the matters on a subpena or matter
brought in regard to the subpena, and this was seized under a sub-
pena under which such a seizure was not allowed.
That was not specified, and the L'nited States law specifies that
a subpena shall state in detail what is to be seized, and Mr. Barker
had no right to take that out of my room, any more than any other
personal possession.
The Chairman. Did you object to him taking it out?
Mr. Dolsen. I told him that I objected to everything that they
did take out of that room, which included the taking out of this.
Mr. Barker stated that he was going to take this before your com-
mittee, that I would be with these documents, and that before a
single document was opened up or anything taken out, that he would
have a list compiled of everything that was taken in my presence,
and that was not done, and this has nothing to do with the Com-
munist Party, or the records of the Connnunist Party, and I object
to it.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dolsen, on this International Workers Order
Mr. Dolsen. I still object. That is not a record of the Com-
munist Party, and I refuse to testify further. I am acting as my
own counsel.
The Chairman. You have stated your objection, now be silent.
7352 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Do you want nie to liold you in contempt, or not?
Mr. DoLSEN. You are the chairman of the committee, and I ha\'e
asked you, as I am representing myself.
The Chairman. The International Workers Order has been held
by this committee to be controlled by the Communist Party, and it
is a material matter to inquire into.
Mr. DoLSEN. I would like to ask the chairman when a court ever
held the Workers Order to be a Communist organization.
The Chairman. Proceed.
jMr. DoLSEN. I refuse point blank to answer questions regarding
that.
Mr. Lynch. Did you not make Earl Browder a beneficiary and
state that he was a cousin of yours in this policy ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Lynch. Wlio is Max Bedacht?
Mr. DoLSEN. I refuse to answer any questions about that.
Mr. Thomas. I think that the witness should be held in contempt.
I think that we have had enough of this, and there is no reason in
the world why this witness or any other witness should come before
a congressional committee and act the way this man has, and I move
that this witness be held in contempt.
The Chairman. Let us take that under advisement ; we have some
material questions here.
Mr. Thomas. If he carries on the way he has been, I am going
to move formally.
Mr. Lynch. Did you not write a letter, Mr. Dolsen, in February
of 1937, addressed to William Z. Foster? You know Mr. Foster, do
you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I refuse to answer, and I insist on the protection of
my constitutional rights before this committee.
Mr. Lynch. Did you not write a letter to Mr. Foster in which this
membership certificate was identified by number, and by date, and in
which you changed the beneficiary to the Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I refuse on the same grounds as previously, on the
grounds of my constitutional rights. .
Mr. Casey. I think that the witness should be advised that there
is nothing involving constitutional rights to ask if you wrote a
letter to an individual. I am just advising you.
Mr. Dolsen. In this particular connection, there is.
Mr. Casey. You are anticipating something, but in this question
I just advise you that there is nothing involving your constitutional
rights.
Mr. DoLSEN. I beg your pardon, I think that you are Mr. Casey?
Mr. Casey. Yes, I am.
Mr. DoLSEN. I beg your pardon, but what I have objected to is
the introduction of this whole document in this case as any matter
relevant for this committee's consideration, and therefore I object
to any questions in connection with that matter, and I am standing
on my constitutional rights representing myself, as my own attorney
in this particular case.
Mr. Lynch. I submit that he should state whether or not he is
standing upon his constitutional rights in that the answer might tend
to incriminate him.
Mr. Starnes. That is the only constitutional right he has.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7353
The Chairman. Is that the grounds that you base your objection
on?
Mr. DoLSEN. I base my objections on the grounds that this com-
mittee under the subpcna which was served upon mo, seized certain
documents which that subpena did not entitle any representative of
this coiinnittoe to seize, and that that is one of tliose documents, and
therefore on that ground, on the ground of my constitutional rights,
I refuse to answer any questions connected with that document.
jNIr. Lynch. I submit that he should state whether or not it tends
to incriminate him of a criminal offense, and otherwise he doesn't
have any rights to refuse to answer.
Mr. Starnes. That is correct.
The Chairman. Do you make the statement that as the grounds ior
the constitutional rights, that the answer of the question may tend
to incriminate you?
Mr. DoLSEN.I refuse to make any statement on that matter, also,
on the same ground of my constitutional rights. I have got some.
Mr. Thomas. I think that we should hold him in contempt. There
is no reason in the world why we should have a witness come before
us and treat a congressional conmiittee the way this witness has,
and I think the time has come when he should be held in contempt,
and I so move.
The Chairman. Let us carry that along for a while. Proceed.
Mr. Lynch. I will show you certain papers, and ask you whether
or not they were some of your lecture notes that you used when you
were working on the W. P. A., about which you have already testified
to?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. The answer is "Yes"?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. I wish to have these marked, not to put in the entire
record. Mr. Chairman, but just to be identified and I want to read
this.
Mr. DoLSEN. I would like to ask a question in that connection.
(The document referred to above was marked "Exhibit No. 2.")
Mr. Lynch. I wish to just refer to a part of one of these papers
and read it into the record.
Mr. DoLSEN. I think, just a minute, I have the right to appeal to
the chairman. Just a minute.
The Chairman. You object to that?
Mr. DoLSEN. He is acting as a prosecutor, and what I object to is
all of this material is irrelevant, and I do not know what the rules
of your committee are, but if I were in court I could object to these
on these grounds, and I do not see why I have not got some rights
here.
Mr. Starnes. Now, Mr. Chairman, this committee tries no one,
and this committee has no power of trial, and this witness nor any
other witness is here on trial, and the only reasonable grounds, and
the only legal grounds that any witness can object to answering a
question appearing before this committee is that it might tend to in-
criminate him or connect him with some criminal offense. That is
the only grounds of objection that he can put up.
7354 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
This witness or no other witness is in any sense on trial, and for
that reason I insist that orderly procedure be carried out here. This
witness is not here to ask questions, but to answer them.
The Chairman. The point is well taken. Proceed.
Mr. Lynch. According to page 1 here, Mr. Dolsen, it seems
Mr. DoLSEN. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. I want to ask a ques-
tion. AVhen I object to these things, does that mean that that is
going to be entered on your records, so that in case I want to bring
this matter into court on my constitutional rights, for example, that
I can do it?
The Chairman. Yes; it is all in the record.
]Mr. Dolsen. Then I desire to have recorded in yoiu- records here
that I object to all of this matter.
The Chairman. You have already stated that. The objection is
overruled.
Mr. Lynch. You have under the heading of "B'- on Lecture No. 1,
the First International
Working class composition (labor) (class-struggle basis).
1. Object, not peace, pacifism, but war. OA-erthrow of common enemy and
cause of war — capitalism : Aim to organize the class war throughout the
world and to utilize other wars for purposes of advancing the overthrow of
capitalism transforming imperialistic \\-ars into civil wars, supporting wars of
self-defense by colonial or semi-colonial ijeoples (China), supporting suijpres-
sion of fascist uprisings in Democratic countries (Spain).
Did you know a Michael Borodin in China?
Mr. DoLSEN. I met him several times.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever work with him?
Mr. Dolsen. I did not work with him.
Mr. Lynch. Is he a Russian Communist?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think he is.
Mr. Lynch. And were you associated with him during your stay
in China, in working with Chiang-Kai-shek?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did not have that honor.
Mr. Lynch. You did see Borodin in China, did you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I saw him several times from a distance.
Mr-. Lynch. You talked to him?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did not talk to him because he talks Russian and I
don't think he talks English. Oh, yes; he does, too. I did, too. I
think that I did meet him several times there.
Mr. Lynch. Is he not from Chicago?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know. I heard he was.
Mr. Lynch. Do you not recall now that you did talk to him while
you were in China?
Mr. DoLSEN. I might have talked to him several times.
Mr. Lynch. And he was interested in the Communist movement
in China at the time, wasn't he ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; he certainly Avas interested in it.
Mr. Lynch. And j^ou knew that, did you not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And you were interested in the Communist movement
in China at the time?
Mr. DoLSEN. I Avas all over the world.
Mr. Lynch. And so you had a nuitual interest, did you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. In that respect.
LX-A.Mi:iil('A\ I'UOl'AGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7355
Mr. Lynch. And having a mutual interest, you would necessarily
confer Avith each other and talk with each other about that, would
you not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, you see, a private does not talk to the general
very often.
Mr. Lyxch. Who is the general, he or you?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I wasn't the general.
Mr. Lynch. AVas he regarded as a general by you ?
Mr. DoLSEx. Well, he was one of the upper layers, one of the
upper people.
Mr. Lynch. Would you report to him or who would you report to
when you were there?
Mr. DoLSEN. I reported directly to the International Red Aid.
i\Ir. Lynch. And do you know whether he ever received copies
of your reports?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Were your reports made in writing?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Did you keep copies of those reports ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Xo.
Mr. Lynch. Do you have copies existing?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. You have other papers, of course, in your room, do
you not. which were not taken or brought here before this com-
mittee?
Mr. DoLSEN. I have a library. It was not all taken here, and I
don't know what was taken.
Mr. Lynch. You were there Avhen it was taken, were you not ?
IMr. DoESEN. I was busy packing up. I did not know how long
my stay might be here in j^our city.
Mr. Lynch. By the way, you were indicted while you were active
in California, were you not, for a criminal offense?
]\Ir. DoLSEN. I was indicted under the California criminal syndi-
calism law.
Mr. Lynch. Were you convicted?
Mr. DoLSEX. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. Were you tried?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was tried twice. I was tried once in 1920, and a
5 weeks' trial where I defended myself, and after the jury was out
for 86 hours they were discharged, deadlocked 6 to 6; and I was
tried a year and a half afterward after the Pennsylvania State Legis-
lature changed the criminal procedures law, so that the judge had
the right to decide whether defendants should be tried separately or
together, and I, together with four others, was tried again in a
6 weeks' trial, and I defended them all. and the jury was deadlocked
7 to 5, and 2 months afterward the district attorney went and had all
of the cases dismissed.
Mr. Lynch. Then you were also later indicted. Were you ever
tried any other time for any criminal olfense?
Mr. DoLSEN. Xo; none.
Mr. Lynch. Wei-e vou not arrested in Gary, Ind.. in August of
1917?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was arrested during the World AVar three or four
times for speaking against the war.
7356 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Because of your remarks relative to the selective draft ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; I don't think that I spoke particularly about the
selective draft.
Mr. Lynch. You were indicted there, were j^ou not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. You were just arrested?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes ; and I was arrested in Gary, Ind., and was held
about 3 or 4 days, as I remember, on the charge of organizing a
meeting against the United States participation in the World War.
Mr. Lynch. And you were released?
Mr. DoLSEN. Keleased; that is right.
Mr. Lynch. This policy of insurance which you have made pay-
able to the Communist Party.
Mr. DoLSEN. That I have already stated I object to making.
Mr. Lynch. You refuse to answer any questions with regard to
that?
Mr. DoLSEN, That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And your refusal to answer is not based upon the fact
that it would tend to incriminate you as a criminal offense ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't care to answer that question.
Mr. Starnes. I suggest that the counsel get away from that par-
ticular document at this time, and we will return to it later.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know William Weiner?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think that I have seen him several times. I don't
know him personally.
Mr. Lynch. Well, is he a Communist of such note that you would
know of him by reputation?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, he is the secretary-treasurer, I believe, of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Lynch. Secretary -treasurer of the Communist Party?
]Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And has been for some time ?
Mr. DoLSEN, I don't know how long.
Mr. Lynch. I wish to state for the record, Mr. Chairman, that
William Weiner, who has just been identified, is also the national
chairman of the International Workers Order Certificate which was
referred to a moment ago. [To the witness :]
Mr. Dolsen, I will show you a copy, or what purports to be a copy,
of a personal application for Works Progress Administration, Penn-
sylvania, and ask you if that is your name, James H. Dolsen, and if
you signed it?
Mr. Dolsen. Mr. Chairman, I object to any answers on this point
on the ground this has nothing to do with the Communist Party or
anything that I was brought here for.
Mr. Lynch. Of course, Mr. Chairman, he is not the one who decides
that question, whether it has anything to do with it.
The Chairman. You decline to answer any question ?
Mr. Dolsen. On my constitutional grounds.
The Chairman. Identify the document for the sake of the record,
so that we may have it before us.
Mr. Lynch. It is a copy of a personal application for the Works
Progress Administration of Pennsylvania, of James H. Dolsen, and
also attached thereto is a specialized experience application of James
H. Dolsen attached to it, on his special qualifications.
UX-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7357
The Chaikmax. Do you deny, Mr. Dolsen, that that is a genuine
document ?
Mr. Dolsen. I don't care to state, or make any statement regarding
that.
The Chairman. You decline to make any statement whatsoever in
reference to it?
Air. Dolsen. On that same ground that I stated before.
The Chairman. Is it or is it not a genuine document?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, its genuineness appears on the face of it.
The Chairman. You are raising no question about the fact?
Mr. Dolsen. I am not raising any question about it as a document;
no.
The Chaiioian. You are not raising any question but what you
had it in your files ?
Mr. Dolsen. It was there ; yes.
The Chairman. And that it is a correct copy ?
]\Ir. Dolsen. That is. when you say ''your files," I presume you
mean in my room, because that is where they were seized.
The Chairman. It is a correct copy of the original application that
you made?
Mr. Dolsen. So far as I know.
The Chairman. Is that true ?
Mr. Dolsen. So far as I know.
Mr. Lynch. The original application was made to the W. P. A.
in Pennsylvania, was it not?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
The Chairman. Now introduce it in evidence.
Mr. Lynch. I am going to introduce this in evidence.
The Chairman. You have objected to the introduction.
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
The Chairman. Overruled.
(The document, in two parts, was marked "Exhibits 3 and 4,"
respectively.)
Mr. Lynch. You were born in San Francisco, were you not, Mr.
Dolsen ?
Mr. Dolsen, Yes.
]\rr. Lynch. If the committee will indulge me for just a mo-
ment
Mr. Starnes. What was the answer to that last question?
Chairman Dies. He said "Yes."
Mr. Starnes. I had made a note that I wanted to ask him that
question.
]Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dolsen. did you ever work at the Crowell Pub-
lishing Co. in Philadelphia?
]Mr. Dolsen. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer all of those ques-
tions or any questions connected with that document on those same
grounds.
The Chairman. But independent of the document, he is asking you
a quesfion that you certainly can have no objection to answering.
He is asking you if you worked for a certain publishing company,
independent of any document or anything else. You certainly cannot
have any objection to answering that.
]Mr. Dolsen. I don't see what the purpose of that is.
7358 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. That is up to this committee, to determine what
the purpose of it is. You are asked simply whether you worked for
this publishing company, and you certainly have no objection to
answering that, do you?
Mr. DoLSEN. I refuse to answer any questions as connected
The Chairman. Disassociated from the document, I asked you if
you ever worked for the Crowell Publishing Co.
Mr. DoLSEN. I woi'ked for those people that it states on that docu-
ment there, if that is what you wish.
Mr. Lynch. You worked for them on the dates indicated there?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Which would mean between 1932 — February 1932 to
September of 1933, you were working with the Crowell Publishing-
Co. of Philadelphia as an agent, is that correct?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And also from 1926 to 1927 you were working with
D. J. Bentall as a law clerk?
]Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Was that in New York?
Mr. Dolsen. That was in Chicago.
Mr. Lynch. Chicago, 111.?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And from October 1933 to November 1934 you were
working for the Lipman Jewelry Co. as a salesman?
]\Ir. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. AVhere were you working for them as a salesman?
Mr. Dolsen. Pittsburgh.
Mr. Lynch. Pennsylvania?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And the Crowell Publishing Co., you were working
for tliem in Pennsylvania also during the time indicated in this paper
whicli I now, Mr. Reporter, exhibit No. 3 — and from June of 1928
to INIarch of 1930 you were employed by the New York Journal of
Commerce as a research worker, is that correct ?
Mr. Dolsen. I refuse to answer any further questions on those.
Mr. Lynch. Why do you refuse to answer, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. Dolsen. I refuse to answer on the same ground that I said
before. I think you are just on a fishing expedition, that is all.
Mr. Lynch. You do not refuse to answer because your answers
woidd tend to incriminate you, do you, for a criminal offense?
Mr. Dolsen. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Lynch. You refuse to answer that question?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
The Chairman. May I ask, what does that record show as his em-
ployment from 1932 to 1935?
Mr. Lynch. February 1932 to September 1933 he stated and he
swore there he worked for the Crowell Publishing Co., in Philadel-
phia, and from October of 1933 to November of 1934 with the Lipman
Jewelry Co.
There is nothing after November 1934, until July of 1937, when he
was on W. P. A. as a computer and statistician.
The Chairman. Wliat was the period that he was in China?
Mr. Lynch. The period was May 1927 to 1931, and in Russia
from 1931 to 1935.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7359
The Chatkmax. Then what is y'onr explanation, Mr. Dolsen, for
your statement here in this application under oath?
Mr. DoLSEN. If the connuittee please. I object that that has nothing,
that that has not anything to do with the legitimate purposes and
objects of this connnittee in caHing me down here. It certainly is
not to go into my whole i)eisonal life.
The Chairman, You do not care to make any explanation of the
discre})ancy ?
Mr. Doi.sEN. I do not care to make any explanation.
Mr. Lynch. "Weren't you in Chicago in June of 1934?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't recall. I might have been.
Mr. Lynch. You wouldn't deny that you were in August of 1934?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
ISIr. Lynch. Didn't you make a sworn statement there on your
application for passport that you had been in China from March
15)L>G to March of 1931?
Mr. Dolsen. ISIaybe I was in China in 1926. I thought it was
1927. I might have been in China. I don't recall.
The Chairman. That is not responsive to the question, whether or
not he made a sworn statement in his passport application; is that
correct ?
Mr. DoLSEN. The passport would show. If it is on the passport,
I made it, but I do not recall particularly what I did say there.
Mr. Lynch. For the purposes of the record I will ask that exhibit
No. 3, constituting two pages — that both of them be copied in full
into the record.
(The documents referred to are as follows:)
Exhibit 3
WPA Form 251 (Revised)
Personal Application
works progress administr.\tion of pennsylvania
(Give Name of State)
(This application is to be filled out in
ink and signed by the applicant. If ad-
ditional details will be of value, a sepa-
rate sheet may be used and attached).
Leave this space blank.
1. Name: James H. Dolsen. 2. Sex: male. 3. Date: Sept. 30, 1937.
4. Present Address: 423 Arch St., Pittsburgh, Pa. 5. Tele No.
6. Legal address (if different from above)
7. Position desired : teacher or
8. Salary desired $94.00 per month. 9. Lowest acceptable salary $94.00 per mo.
10. When could you begin work if appointed?: immediately.
11. If appointed, would you be free to work overtime when necessary?: Yes.
12. Would you accept temporary work?: no. 13. If so, for how long?
14. Are you interested in part time work?: no. 15. If so, on what days of the
week and during what hours of the day?: no.
16. Date and place of birth: Nov. 30, 1885, San Francisco, Cal. 17. Are yoa
a citizen? : yes
18. If naturalized, give the time, date and place
19. State whether single, married, widowed, divorced or separated: single.
20. State whether white, colored or other race : white.
21. State whether you live alone, with your husband, wife, children or par-
ents, or otherwise : alone.
94931— 40— vol. 12 11
7360
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
22
24.
Give the sex, age and relationship of persons dependent upon you for
support :
(a) Wholly dependent: none.
(b) Partially dependent: none.
Describe briefly the nature of any defects, infirmities or chronic disease
you have : none.
Have you ever been arrested, indicted or convicted for violation of any law
other than a minor traffic violation? no. 25. State the particulars briefly:
25. If you have had fewer than three employers, give the following information,
as to three persons, not related to you, who can tell of your qualifications :
Name : Jacob Seligsohn Address :
Dr. B. J. Hovde
Al Tronzo
Jones Law Bldg. Pgh. Occupation : attorney.
Pgh. Dept of Public Welfare Director.
City-County Bldg. legislator.
Exhibit 4
SPECIALIZED EXPERIENCE (APPLICATION OF JAMES H. DOLSEN
1910-1911 : Teacher in ungraded school at Rosebud, Montana. Held teacher's
certificate.
1917-1921: Newspaper work — 4 years on labor paper ("Labor Unity"), pub-
lished in San Francisco, Calif. This paper was cooperatively owned and
operated by about 50 labor unions. I was variously editor, business manager,
and reporter. As research worker on N. Y. Journal of Commerce (see appli-
cation form) as teacher of classes for workers: During the 4 years on the
labor paper in San Francisco; also in Chicago and New York.
1925-1926: wrote a book entitled "Awakening of China." My knowledge of
law effecting labor should also be helpful.
27. Education:
Type of School
Name and Location
(City and State)
From
Ci'ear)
To
(Year)
Diploma
(Yes or No)
Kind of Course
Elementary
High
(finished 1901.)
Business College.. ...
College
Post Graduate or Pro-
Beloit College, Beloit,
Wisconsin.
Northwestern University
Law School, Evanston,
111.
1905
1915
1907
1916
Degree— no
no
Majors and
Minors, liberal
arts.
law.
fession.
Other
28. What parts of the above work was done in Evening School? None.
29. Give below an outline of your employment record, showing your present
or last position first and working backward. Uxt all your principal
ivork and in additition every full-time position you have held in the last
10 years.
Date
Company Worked For
Position Held
Salary
Supervisor
May, 1936
computer
71.50
Scott Keves
July, 1937
on WPA
statistician
85.00
Oct., 1933
Lipman Jewelry Co.
salesman
.$125. 00
Harry Lipman
Nov., 1934
Feb., 1932
Crowell Publishing Co., Phil-
agent
$100-$125
R. Andrews
Sept., 1933
adelphia
June. 1928
N. Y. Journal of Commerce
research worker
$30 weekly
R. C. Macwell
March, 1930
Feb., 1926
D. J. Bentall
law clerk
$25 weekly
D. J. Bentall
May, 1927
Sept., 1925
Jan., 1926
Chicago Workers Institute
English instructor eco-
H. L. Steward
nomics
30. Outline any specialized experience which would be of value in the work of
which you are applying. (See attached record.)
UN-AM lOKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7361
31. I certify that the above statements are true to the best of my kuowledge
and belief.
(Signature) James H. Dolsen.
Project Number
{.Uassification
Mr. Lynch. Were you not a teacher in the Anglo-American
School in Moscow^
Mr. Dolsen. That is Avhere I tanght in the ^vorkers' group that
I told you about.
Mr. Lyxch. And is the Intei'national lied Aid the same as the
Anglo-American School i
Mr. Dolsen. Xo; it is not.
Mr. Lynch. AVere you the corres])ondent for handling the corre-
spondence of the International Labor Defense in Moscow^
Mr. Dolsen. I did not; no.
Mr. Lynch. Did you have any connection with them?
Mr. Dolsen. You mean betAveen the two organizations?
Mr. Lynch. Did you have any connection with the International
Labor Defense?
Mr. Dolsen. In this International Ked Aid in Moscow, I was
what they call a referent. A referent is a person who has to make
a special study of a certain country in regard to political percussions
in that country, and who makes rejiorts on that. For example, as
the referent on America there at this International Red Aid I had
to make a re})ort on the Mooney case^ for example, how he was con-
victed, and so forth ; you see, that was my work.
Mr. Caset. Who gave you the title of referent?
Mr. Dolsen. That Avas the official name for a person who did
that kind of work.
Mr. Casey'. Who made the official name?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, I don't know, as a part of the institution, in
other words, they had referents, like a business institution, you have
somebody in charge of a department, and they are given a certain
title, you see.
Mr. Casey. Were there anv other religious titles or semireligious
titles m the organization?
Mr. Dolsen. It had nothing to do with religion.
Mr. Casey. But he said "reverent" which has a religious connota-
tion to the average mind.
Mr. Ly'nch. I do not think that he used tlie word "reverend."
Mr. Dolsen. Oh, no; referent. (Spelling r-e-f-e-r-e-n-t.)
Mr. Lynch. Is there anything further that you want to ask him
on that point?
The Chairman. No.
Mr. Lynch. 1 show you a paper entitled "Communist Campaign
Calendar." You are familiar with that, are you not?
Mr. Dolsen. I never saAv it. as a matter of fact.
]\Ir. Lynch. You never saw that before?
]Mi-. Dolsen. No; I never saw this thing. I have seen copies of it.
Ml'. Lynch. You have seen copies of this?
jNIr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. You are familiar with it?
Mr. Dolsen. With the contents; yes.
7362 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Your name appears on there as a candidate, State
representative. James H. Dolsen; is that correct?
Mr. Dolsen. That is correct. First legislative district of Al-
legheny County. Pittsburgh.
Mr. Lynch. And those numbers there, under what is called sig-
natures, minimum, and quota, what does that mean, Mr. Dolsen?
What does the minimum mean?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, this has to do with entering candidates in the
fall election in the State of Pennsylvania, and according to the
Pennsylvania law a party or a candidate who is not in the regular
primary of the Democratic or Republican Party has to get a certain
number of people to sign his petition before his name will be placed
on the official ballot for the fall election.
I was selected as a candidate in the first legislative district in
Allegheny County, and this states the minimum names which we
had to get on each of these petitions and the quota over here is the
number of names that we wanted to get in fidl so that if some names
were stricken out we would still have enough names.
Mr. Lynch. And when you say "I was selected," who selected
you?
Mr. Dolsen. The city committee.
Mr. Lynch. The city committee composed of who?
Mr. Dolsen. The city committee is composed of representatives
elected by the Communist Party in the city of Pittsburgh.
Mr. Lynch. And you had a regular meeting?
Mr. Dolsen. That' is right.
The Chairman. It will be necessary for the Chair, due to the
absence of a quorum, to resolve into a subcommittee composed of
the Chair, Mr. Casey, and Mr. Starnes. We have to do that for
the record.
Mr. Lynch. And the person listed here as President is Earl
Browder ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is correct.
Mr. Lynch. He is the same Earl Browder who has recently been
convicted in New York of fraudulent passports?
Mr. Dolsen. He has now appealed his case. James Ford is the
Vice-Presidential candidate — a Negro.
Mr. Lynch. I w^ill ask that it be marked.
(The document referred to above was marked "Exhibit No. S.**)
Mr. Lynch. By whom are they chosen?
Mr. Dolsen. They have not been officially chosen yet, except that
the Pennsylvania State Convention and the Massachusetts and sev-
eral others have officially designated them, and then there is to be
a confirming convention, I think.
Mr. Lynch. Designated now, and they do not even have a pri-
mary until fall; is that correct?
Mr. Dolsen. There are no primaries for the Communist Party,
because they are not on the official ballot.
Mr. Lynch. AVhen do you have your national convention?
Mr. Dolsen. The national convention is, I think it is the 30th—
May 30.
Mr. Lynch. Of this year?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
UN-AMERICAX rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7363
Mr. Lynch. Aiul you hiive already selected the candidates in your
area as to the ]'resident and first Vice President?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Is anybody handling campaign funds for you?
Mr. DoLSEN. I snpi^ose so.
Mr. Lynch. Well, mIio?
Mr. DoLSEN. "Well, I suppose the campaign manager handles them.
I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Is he handling them for you?
Mr. DoLSEN. AVe have no separate funds. We are not bothered
very nuich by funds, yet, anyhow.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know Ben Davis, or know of him ?
Mr. DoLSEX. I know of him. I don't know him personally.
Mr. Lynch. He is an outstanding colored Connnunist, is he not?
Mr, DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And yon wrote a letter to the Courier, the editor of the
Courier. Is that a Pittsburgh paper?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right. The Courier is a Negro paper published
in Pittsburgh, with perhaps the biggest circulation of any Negro
paper in the United States.
;^Ir. Lynch. You wrote this letter to them in INIarch of 19J:0, signed
by you?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Did you follow the activity of Ben Davis regarding
his efforts to have the antilynching bill passed ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I did.
Mr. Lynch. And do you recall when he testified before the Senate
committee which was holding hearings on that matter?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do.
Mr. Lynch. xVnd you were completely familiar with the man, that
is one of the reasons why you wrote this letter to the Courier?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know whether I would say "completely
familiar," but I knew from the newspaper reports of what had oc-
curred there, on the basis of that I did write this letter to the
Courier.
Mr. Lynch. And you approved of the activities of Ben Davis?
Mr. DoLSEN. A hundred percent.
Mr. Lynch. Including his testimony before the Senate committee?
Mr. DoLSEN. A hundred percent.
Mr. Lynch. Of course he is a Communist, is he not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. He is, yes, sir. Well, I beg your pardon. I don't
know whether he is or not.
Mr. Lynch. You have every reason to believe that he is, though?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Don't you recall reading that Ben Davis testified
before the Senate committee that he was appearing on behalf of the
Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think that that is correct, then he would appear
as a Communist.
Mr. Lynch. I will show you a letter dated February 23, 1940,
addressed to "Dear Andy," and ask you if that was sent by you?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And who is Andy?
7364 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. That is a fellow who was given this literature, and he
paid for it,
Mr. Lynch. Wliat is his full name?
Mr. DoLSEX. I object also, this is a personal communication, and
has nothing to do, if I write a letter to a friend or somebody, what
has that got to do with me before the committee? I am certainly
willing to testify
The Chaikman. You object to answering who x^ndy is, is that
correct ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I object to that.
The Chairman. You don't deny that you wrote the letter?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; and I don't deny the contents of the letter, and
if the gentleman desires to read it, I have no objection.
Mr. Lynch. Wlio are the authors of the books that you are send-
ing to Andy?
Mr. DoLSEN. The authors of the books are as follows :
January Communist, the Communist Party publishes the Com-
munist ; it is the official organ, monthly organ.
Get Organized is a little pamphlet about that thick [indicating]
which has articles and stories about how workers get organized into
trade-unions.
Communist International is the official publication of the Com-
munist International. It is issued, I think, monthly. It is num-
bered.
Teachings of Karl Marx was written by Lenin; Letters to the
American Workers is by Lenin ; Mastering Bolshevism is by Stalin ;
Theory as a Guide to Action is by Earl Browder ; and Two Worlds
M^as part of a sort of an educational course of seven pamphlets in the
series, which was a study of what socialism and communism and capi-
talism are.
Mr. Lynch. You sent these through the mails, did you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes,
Mr. Lynch, To Andy?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; the particular books, and so forth; no.
Mr. Lynch. The documents which are mentioned in this letter?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; I sent the letter, of course, through the mail, but
the documents I gave him, the books and pamphlets, I handed them
to him personally.
Mr. Lynch. In Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. You did it as the literature agent for the Communist
Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And Andy is a Communist ; is that right ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And yet you object to giving us his name and refuse
to give us his name?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, just for the purpose of the record, I
will ask the Chair to direct him to answer that question, so that
we will have it on the record that he has definitely refused.
Mr. DoLSEN. I have answered that.
The Chairman, The Chair directs you to answer the following
question: Who is Andy, referred to in the letter?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7365
^Ir. DoLSEX. Insofar as the full name is concerned, I decline to
jrive it. My declination is based on reasons of my constitutional
lights, and his protection.
The CiiAiioiAx. All ri<iht.
Mr. Lynch. This letter to the editor of the New Masses, you sent
that, did you not. on February 23, 1940?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is rioht.
Mr. Lynch. This article by the Dean of Canterbury, entitled
"'Youno- People of the Scjviet Union," you wanted that distributed
anionii- the hioh school and university students?
Mr. DoLSEN. I suggested that it should be reprinted as a pamphlet
and that it could then be distributed among such people.
Mr. Lynch. And that would be the high school and university
people in the United States, would it not, that you are referring to?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. You say here that in a boxed-in statement, short and
to the point, with a few statistics showing how few of our youths are
accorded such opportunities — ^AVhat opportunities were you refer-
ring to?
I will show you the whole letter so you can get the context of it.
Mr. DoLSEN. He pointed out that in the Soviet L^nion the govern-
ment made a special eifort to educate all possible young people because
of the great demand for trained workers in industry and in govern-
ment offices and so forth and the fact that they never had enough of
them and that imder those circumstances that the government of the
Soviet Union gave every possible opportunity and that in the Soviet
T^nion. in contrast to America, for example, there were not unem-
])loyed young people or older people. There were jobs for them all.
And what I suggested was that the editor of the New Masses should
have the Dean of Canterbury's article reprinted in a pamphlet and
that this should be widely distributed among American young people
to prove that in such a rich country as America, if they could do it
in the Soviet L^nion. certainly we could give our people in America
something socially useful and train them to be efficient people instead
of keeping them unemployed on the streets and in the corner saloons
and public houses and all of that sort.
Mr. Lynch. And you felt that the opportunities were better for
youths in Russia than they were here?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am convinced that the opportunities at the present
time in the Soviet L'nion for young people are very considerably
better than they are in America, not that they could not be even better
in America than in the Soviet Union, but they are not actually at the
present time. I know that from my own personal experience with
young people.
Mr. Lynch. What about older people ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am convinced that the same thing is true about
older people. That comes from the fact that in the Soviet Union
there is no unemployment.
Mr. Casey. Of course, right now there is an opportunity for the
young people of Russia to get work on the Mannerheim line, for
example, in the Russian Army, and so forth. It takes up a great
slack of unemployment.
Mr. DoLSEN. It is true that there was an opportunity and they
showed what they were made of by breaking through the line.
7366 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. That was a defensive war, was it not? You
re<rard the war between Russia and Finland as a defensive war on
the part of Russia?
Mr. DoLSEN, Well, I regard the former Soviet -Finnish War as a
war which was forced upon the Soviet Union by Chamberlain and
his group in control of British politics; in other words, that they
were using Finland as a center from which to plan their campaign
against the Soviet Union as well as to use it as a center to open up
a new front against Germany, and in that sense, Mr. Dies, while
Finland is a very small country, that nevertheless a small mouse
can make a whole lot of damage to a very big lot of furniture
when there is something behind that mouse.
The Chairman. From your viewpoint, Russia was really engaged
in a defensive war?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is, from my standpoint it was.
The Chairman. And Finland was preparing to attack Russia, is
that true?
Mr. DoLSEN. I would not say that Finland as a single country by
itself was preparing to attack the Soviet Union, but Finland was
being used by Chamberlain and Daladier as a center both from
which to attack the Soviet Union and also to try to get an opening
up there for a new front against Hitler, to come down from the north.
The Chairman. Finland was a very small country. You say
that your observation has been that a very small mouse can cause a
great deal of trouble to a big country ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Casey. You probably base that on the fact that a small mouse
can scare a big elephant, but I never heard of a small mouse scaring
a big bear before.
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know, Mr. Casey, whether that is quite an
apt comparison, but I would use such an illustration as this, for
example.
Cuba is a very small country, but if, for example, Great Britain
had control of Cuba, and wanted to use that as a center for creating
difficulties for the United States it would be in a very advantageous
position, and the United States would be very much concerned.
Mr. Lynch. Where did you get the information from, that you
have just given us with regard to the war between Russia and
Finland?
Mr. DoLSEN. I get my information from these sources : The Pitts-
burgh daily newspapers, most of which I read every day ; the Daily
Worker ; the New Masses, the Nation, the Republic, the New Repub-
lic ; and what they call the World News and Views, the official organ
of the Communist Party.
Those are the principal sources from which I get it, and listening
to some lecturers who come to Pittsburgh and speak up at the Sunday
High School forum, a big public forum held there and from all of
these sources I combine and get my final judgment as to what is
going on
Mr. Lynch. That is your final judgment on the matter?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
(Mr. Thomas returned to the room.)
The Chairman. The committee goes back into a committee of the
whole, with a quorum present.
UN-AMERICAN PllOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7367
Mr. Lynch. How loiio- havo you been unemployed, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. Dolse:n. I have been unemployed from about 1937 or the sum-
mer of 1936, 1 think I was unemployed.
Mr. Lynch. And you think that there is a better opportunity for
all jiersons in Russia for employment, do you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well
Mr. Lynch. You said that a moment ago.
Mr. DoLSEN. That is rioht.
Mr. Lynch. You have not gone to Russia to seek employment or
get into this movement that you have just outlined a few moments
ago, both with regard to the L^nited States and with regard to youth
and adults?
Mr. DoLSEx. I have not gone there because I am an American.
"Why should I have to go there and get work? There is no reason
A\ hy I should be unable to get work here.
Mr. Lynch. You can go there.
Mr. DoLSEN. I haven't got the money.
Mr. Lynch. Who paid your passage there before, when you went
there ?
Mr. DoLSEN. My passage before was paid by the Communist Party
of America.
Mr. Lynch. Did they pay your passage to China, also ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; that was paid by the International Red Aid.
Mr. Lyxch. But then when you left China and went to Russia,
that was paid by the Communist Party ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was paid by the International Red Aid.
Mr. Lynch. Both of them?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. They paid your way home to America ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
The Chairman. There is an important angle there, Mr. Counsel,
w^hich I want to bring up at this time, if you don't mind. I wanted
to ask Mr. Dolsen about this. Were you going to get into that?
Mr. Lynch. Yes; I wanted to cover the correspondence first. Do
you know a James Brown?
Mr. DoLSEN. James Brown?
]\Ir. Lynch. I will show you a letter signed by James Brown on a
typewriter and ask you if that came from your files?
Mr. DoLSEN. It did. James Brown is the name under which the
literature account of the Communist Party before I was responsible,
was conducted, and after I took it over it was conducted under the
same name.
ISIr. Lynch. So you use both names, your name, and James Brown ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was the name of the account.
a\Ir. Lynch. But some of this literature has been sent under your
name, such as the letter to Andy was under your name, and in which
you told him how much he owed you.
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And so you use both names, James Brown, and yours?
Mr. Dolsen. This was used with the orders in general, J. Brown, to
keep that distinction under the account.
The Chairman. Is tliere such a person as James Brown?
Mr. Dolsen. I don't k)iow. I never saw him.
The Chairman. You just use the name, James Brown?
7368 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. It was the name under which the account was before^
and I just continued it.
The Chairman. You mailed this literature to various places
throughout the country, did you not, and other places requested?
Mr. DoLSEN. Through western Pennsylvania.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know Gary White?
Mr. DoLSEN. I never knew him very well. I met him several times.
Mr. Lynch. Where did you meet him?
Mr. DoLSEN. I met him in Pittsburgh several times.
Mr. Lynch. Was he working with the W. P. A. project?
Mr. DoLSEN. I believe he was. I think that was before I came on
the project. I believe he was in charge of the project when it was
first opened.
Mr. Lynch. And then were you ever employed in the W. P. A.
at the same time he was?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. Of course Gary White, you know he is a Gommunist,
do you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know that he is a Gommunist, I don't believe
he is,
Mr. Lynch. Don't you know he was a candidate on the Gommu-
nist Party ticket for the Governor of the State of Virginia, in 1936?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know. I don't know who the candidates in
the different States are.
Mr. Lynch. You never talked to him about communism?
Mr. DoLSEx. No.
Mr. Lynch. You are sure of that?
Mr, DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know whether Gary White is still in charge
of W, P. A. educational projects in the Pittsburgh area?
Mr, DoLSEx. No; he is not.
Mr. Lyxch. In the whole State?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know what he is in the State. I don't know
what he is doing.
Mr. Lynch. You don't know where he is or what he is doing now ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. Is that correct ?
Mr, DoLSEN, Yes.
The Ghairman. Do I understand that you do not know whether
Gary White is in charge of the educational work of the W. P. A.
in the Pittsburgh area?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; he is not in charge. I know that he is not in
charge, you see, at least to the best of my knowledge.
The Chairman. What is his position' with the \Y. P, A.?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know. As I say, you see before I went on it,
the W. P. A. Workers Education Department, Gary WHiite for a
time I believe was in charge of that division, that was before I was
on it, you see; and now what became of him afterward I don't know.
You see I have no knowledge of that, because I knew him just by
hearsay, that was all, and I think that I saw him a couple of times
and I don't remember that I ever met him.
The Chairman. How many members of the Gommunist Party do'
you have in Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. I shoukl judge that we had about 900.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7369
The Chairman. Nine liiindred members in the city of Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Ki^jht at that point, how many of that 900 were
on the W. P. A. in Pittsburi^di?
Mr. Dolsf:x. Of course I don't know, because I didn't know them
all, but I would judge maybe 30 or 40, that is, including road work
jH'ojects and so forth, because on the W. P. A. they were not supposed
to draw an}- lines as to what your i)olitics or religion or anything
else was, it was a matter of being qualified to do the work, it was
work relief.
Mr. Thomas. Then the 900 Communists in the Pittsburgh area
Avere working on all kinds of things in private industry, and other
places ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Those who wei-e unemployed, of course, wanted to get
on W. P. A., because it was, the conditions, unless you had a big
family, were better on ^y. P. A. You got a little more, so naturally
they all tried to get on there.
Mr. Thomas. Of those 900 Communists, how many were unem-
ployed ?
]\Ir. DoLSEN. I don't know, because that also varied from time to
time.
Mr. Thomas. About how many? "What is your estimate?
Mr. DoLSEX. Well. I don't know, I should judge that perhaps at
the present time maybe a third are unem]:)loyed.
Mr, Thomas. And two-thirds of the Communists are working?
Mr. DoLvSEN. That is more or less of a rough guess, because I don't
know them all.
Mr. Lyxch. Of those one-third who are unemployed, you say that
all of them were seeking relief under either State or Federal relief?
Mr. DoLSEX, Of course, if you are unemployed you have got to
get some way to live,
Mr. Lyxch. Unless you use your own money.
Mr. DoLSEX. Those that are unemployed don't generally have much
money. Their resources are exhausted,
iSIr. Lyxch. You would say the one-third unemployed would be
receiving relief, either from the State or the Federal Government?
Mr. DoLSEN, In general.
Mr. Lyxch. And when you said 30 or 40, did you mean 30 or 40
members or percentages?
iVIr. DoLSEX. I meant 30 or 40 members.
Mr. Lyxch. Were employed on the W, P, A. ?
Mr. DoLSEX, Yes,
]Mr. Lyxch. How many did you personally know of that number?
Mr. DoLSEX. Well. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that this is going
very far afield. The regulations of the W. P. A. are very stringent^
that there is no distinction to be drawn, politically, or religiously,
or any other way, and I can't see what this kind of questions are
aiming at unless they are aiming to establish some distinctions and
that certainly is contrary to the present law, and I would suggest
that if the gentleman has some questions which are pertinent that
he bring those questions up because I am sure that the committee
does not want to keep this thing going
The Chairmax. Proceed.
7370 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch, How many of those Communists did you know per-
sonally ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Which ones?
Mr. Lynch. The ones who were working on the W. P. A.?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I couldn't tell. I knew some of them person-
ally, of course.
Mr. Lynch. And others that you did not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did any of them work in your immediate department,
or bureau, that you knew of ?
Mr. DoLSEN. There probably were some.
Mr. Lynch. Can you recall definitely?
Mr. DoLSEN. I can't give you any names.
Mr. Lynch. Now, I will ask you, Mr. Dolsen, about these various
files, which were produced here — films, transfers, section organizers,
and so forth, in which there appears to be no file in the folder.
You made these files, did you not ?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Lynch. Who made them?
Mr. Dolsen. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. You are familiar with them?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Lynch. You never saw them before?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Where did you see them before?
Mr. Dolsen. I might explain that. Mr. Barker took away all of
these various files, and I had on a sort of a dresser top, a flat top, a
whole long bunch in which there were all kinds of files like that, that
was mainly my newspaper file in which I clipped out various things
and then classified them according to these different sheets.
Some of these folders, those envelopes that you see there, were
folders that were in the Communist Party office and I suppose pre-
viously, at some time, had been used for those purposes, and they
were not in use and they said that I could have them for my oAvn files
if I wanted them and so I took them up there. Tiiey were lying
at one end of these files and, as I had other material, I would cross
these out and put — how I would classify this stuff, such as public
utilities, and all of this sort of thing, and I also had a file for tho
Dies committee, and its proceedings, and I don't know if Mr. Barker,
brought this down.
The Chairman. May I ask you some questions m connection with
it, please?
Did you write the titles on the folders ?
Mr. Dolsen. No; I didn't write any of these titles. Those that I
have you will see are newspaper clippings.
The Chairman. You didn't write the titles on the folders?
Mr. Dolsen. No; I wrote none of these titles on any of these
folders whatsoever.
The Chairman. When vou got the folders from the Communist
Party
Mr. Dolsen. They had those titles.
The Chairman. The titles were already written on them?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7371
The Chairman. Now, were the folders empty when you got them
from tlio Communist Party?
IVIi-. DoLSEN. Yes.
llie Chairman. You were active in the Communist Party there,
were you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. You were a member of the central committee?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I was not a member of the central committee.
The Chairman. Isn't that the hiohest committee of the Com-
munist Party of the city of Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is; yes.
The Chairman. That is the committee that directs the activities?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. You were also secretary of the Communist Party
in the city of Pittsburgh, were you not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. Of the city committee of the Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. "\^niat official position did you hold in the Com-
munist Party in the Pittsburgh area ?
Mr. DoLSEN. You mean at the present time ?
The Chairman. At any time while you have been there?
Mr. DoLSEN. At the present time I am a member of the city com-
mittee and am a member of the district committee; these two com-
mittees.
The Chairman. Previous to that what position, if any, did you
hold in the Communist Party?
Mr, DoLSEN. None.
The Chairman. You never held any?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. While you were active in the Communist Party,
did you have occasion at any time to see these folders or any of the
files"?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. Who gave you these folders?
Mr. DoLSEN. I saw them lying around and I asked if I could have
them because I was keeping this file of newspapers.
The Chairman. AVliere did you see them lying around?
Mr. DoLSEN. In the party offices.
The Chairman. Did they have anything in them at the time you
saw them?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. When did you get the folders?
Mr. DoLSEN. I got those folders, it must have been 3 or 4 months
ago.
The Chairman. One of the folders is marked "Y. C. L."
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. That is the Young Communist League?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. That would contain records of that?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. One of them is marked "Jeannette."
Mr. DoLSEN. That is tlie name of a city; and I suppose that that
had material which pertains to that section.
7372 UN-AMERICAN PROI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. To the Communist Piirty in that section?
INIr. DoLSEN. I suppose so.
The Chairman. Dail.y Worker financial drive. That speaks for
itself.
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Films. AVhat would that have reference to?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am not sure, but I imaoine that that would have
reference to showing- of films, don't you see, throujj;!! the party
organization.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, over a period of time, your
party in Pittsburgh has shown films ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Where did you get the films, in Russia ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; we got them from Garrison.
The Chairman. Did you rent tliem from Garrison ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. And then you displayed them at public meetings?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, dis])layed them at ])ublic meetings, or privately
at what they called branches, in somebody's home.
The Chairman. They were dealing with the Communist movement
in Russia, were they ?
Mr. DoLSEN. They dealt with different things, of course. I don't
know directly because I was not handling them, you see, but I know
that I saw some of them. Some of them dealt with the Soviet Union
and their industrial construction, and May Day parades and all of
these things.
The Chairman. Would you have public meetings at which the pub-
lic could attend the showing of them?
Mr. DoLSEN. Sometimes there were public showings.
The Chairman. Now, the question of transfers has a reference to
the transfer of a party member from Pittsburgh to some other
area ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Whenever a member of the Communist Party
wishes to move from one section to another section, he must obtain
an official transfer; is that correct?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is correct.
The Chairman. Who signs that transfer?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think the secretary of the party signs it, the secre-
tary.
The Chairman. Of the local area?
Mr. DoLSEN. For instance, say that you have got here in Wash-
ington a branch, and somebody wants to move from Washington to
New York City, and stay in the ])arty, and then I think the proce-
dure is that he applies to the secretary of the local branch who
O. K.'s the transfer and mai'ks where he is transferred to, and then
he is accepted in the other place by the secretary.
The Chairman. But if he were to go to another place without the
official transfer, he would not be entitled to sit in the fractional
meeting ?
IMr. DoLSEN. He would not be entitled to sit in the party meetings.
The Chairman. They used to be called "fractional meetings."
Mr. DoLSEN. They were something entirely different.
The Chairman. Now, Turtle Creek refers to the Communist Party
some place in that locality?
UN-AMKUHAX I'KorAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7373
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chaikmax. Xow. set-tion oroanizors would refer to the section
ortranizers of the Coniniunist Tarty; is that true?
Mr. DoLsEX. That is true.
The Chaikmax. As a matter of fact, you were never a section or-
<ranizer in the Pittsburuh area?
Mr. DoLSKX. I Avtis not.
The Chairmax. You wei-e a section orojanizer in San Francisco?
Mr. DoLSEX. Yes.
The Chairmax. Now. wliat is the duty of tlie section organizer?
^Ir. DoLSEX. AVell, the section organizer, for instance, a certain
part, say a big city, a certain part of that city is separated, if they
have a "lot of members, and the party members, say, like I suppose
noi-tliwest Washington. I don't know how the city is divided, they
would be in that section there. Maybe there would be four or five
branclies, and then there would be a section connnittee and from these
branches there would be a delegate or two delegates according to
the size of the section, who would meet in the section connnittee; it
was a subordinate. I think most all parties have the same kind of an
i»rganization; I don't know.
The Chairman. Xow, the Garrison films, that would have refer-
ence to the same thing that we covered a few moments ago?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Xow here is a folder marked "contacts," in pen,
and then erased, and the word "Philadelphia," is written on it. Xow,
when you have a folder "'contact" that means contact of party mem-
bers with sj-mpathizers ; does it not?
^Ir. DoLSEN. I suppose so.
The Chairman. In other words, you have, for instance, a large
group of people who are not actual members of the party, but who
have indicated to some member that they sympathize with the party ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Who is more or less sympathetic with their purposes.
The Chairman. And you keep a record of those contacts?
Mr. DoLSEN, Sometimes they do.
The Chairman. In order to, of course, you hope to eventually get
them in the party?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chahoian. And then if you want information of any kind
it is valuable to have contacts to get it from, is that not true?
]\Ir. DoLSEN. I think the Democratic Party does the sanie thing.
The Chairman. I am just asking you what the Communist Party
does.
Xow, the question of finances speaks for itself. Auxiliary Party.
What does that have reference to?
Mr. DoLSEX. I don't know.
The Chairman. Well, wouldn't that have reference to organizers
that were more or less, while they did not go under the name of
Conununist orminizers, thev largelv worked with the Communist
Party i
Mr. DoLSEN. That might be.
The Chairman. You would natui-ally call that an oi-ganizntion of
that kind, for instance, vou would call the Young Conununist League
an auxiliai'v, wouldn't you?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
7374 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. And the International Labor Defense, an
Auxiliary ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. You wonld not call it that ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman, Do you have in mind any other rrroup that you
would call an auxiliary?
Mr. DoLSEN. No, I can't tell what whoever wrote that had in mind
because we don't use that term very much in the party, "auxihary."
The Chairman. When you use it, what do you refer to, as you
stated a moment ago, some organization that is not Communist
avowedly, or professedly?
Mr. DoLSEN. It may be an organization in which the Comnuuiist
influence is quite strong, so nuich so that they are willing to work
with the Communist Party on certain issues. For instance, maybe
they are interested in the struggle for negro rights, you see, and they
will work along with the party there but be bitterly opposed to it
in some other things.
The Chairman. In other words, they are organizations in which
there are a number of Comnuinists but they don't constitute the
majority ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. But nevertheless the organization will go so far
with the party line?
Mr. DoLSEN, That is right, on certain issues.
The Chairman. On certain issues, but will not go the full length?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, on Trotskyism, that would deal with the
activities of the Trotsky group in the United States?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you come in contact with that activity much
in Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLsoN. No ; I think that there is only one known Trotskyite.
The Chairman. They have pretty well gotten rid of the Trotsky-
ites ?
Mr. DoLSEN. They are not very active. Maybe there are some that
do not make themselves known.
The Chairman. Johnstown would deal with the activities of the
Communist Party in that locality?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. You are familiar with the Communist group in
Johnstown or Turtle Creek or any of these other places ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Outside of the city, I am not very familiar with those
groups.
The Chairman. Now, with reference to the English sections, that
w^ould deal with sections of the party where they spoke the English
language; is that right?
Mr. DoLSEN. You see, I don't know what this particular thing
referred to.
The Chairman. But from your experience ?
Mr. DoLSEN. In the early history of the party, they used to have
English branches, and then foreign-speaking branches, but prac-
tically now all branches are English-speaking branches, so that there
is no such a thing.
UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7375
The Chairman. You don't divide them up any longer according
to the hiiiguage that they speak?
Mr. DoLSKX. No; because most of those people have been in this
country so long that they untkn-stand English.
The Chaikman. That was to take care of situations some years ago
when a number of them could not speak English, and y(m would
group them according to their nationality?
Mr. DoLsEX. That is right, because you had to — you see they could
not understand when you talked to them.
The Chaikman. Now. control commission, that was a commission
in each section to control the activities of the party?
jNIr. DoLSEX. The control commission generally was a committee in
each district of the party which had a general job of — for instance,
supposing that there was a conflict between some leading Communist
Party members, which did not have to do with the principles of the
party, but which was more or less personal, you see, and it was the
duty of this commission to try to get that thing straightened out so
that they could work along together.
The CiiAiRMAX. If some member violated some rule of the party?
Mr. DoLSEX. Yes ; that is what it would be.
The Chairman. The control commission's duty was to talk to him
about it, and if necessary, discipline him ?
Mr. DoLSEX. It was a disciplinary committee also. That is, it had
also that authority to a certain extent, but you see you have a con-
stitution of the Communist Party there, and you will find there that
they have special connnittees which can be. set up by which people
Xir. Thomas. Right on that control commission, didn't the control
commission also have the power of expulsion?
Ml". DoLSEX. They had tlie power to recommend expulsion.
Mr. Thomas. But when they recommend it, the person is always
expelled ?
Mr. DoLSEX. Well, the party usually accepted the decisions of the
control commission, because they figiu'ed they carefully thought it
out.
Mr. Thomas. Not usually, but always?
]Mr. DoLSEX. I don't know, because I don't know all of those
cases.
The Chairman. Now, this heading. List of Secretaries of Lodges.
Mr. Thomas. May I interrupt again, right on that control com-
mission who is the head of the control commission in the United
States?'
Mr. DoESEX. I don't know who is the head of the control commis-
sion in the LTnited States.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know Charles Durba?
Mr. DoLSEx. No; I know him by name but I don't
Mr. Thomas. Don't you know he is the head of the control com-
mission in the United States?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know.
The Chairmax'. Now, a list of secretaries of lodges, "lodges" re-
fers to some other organizations?
Mr. DoLsEX. Evidently.
The Chatrmax. Like, for instance. International Workers Order,
and other organizations? That was a list of the secretaries of these
organizations?
94931— 40— vol. 12 12
7376 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. I suppose so. That may have been part of a mailing
list. I don't know where all of these various folders came from.
They might have been in different
The Chairman. But you do know that the party kept a record of
the officers in other oro;anizations ?
Mr. DoLSEN. For instance, if we want them to pass a resolution on
a certain subject, and naturally we would send a copy of the resolu-
tion and ask them to endorse it.
The Chairman. For instance, you would send a copy of a resolu-
tion to the secretary of the International Workers Order or some
labor union in which the secretary was friendly to the party ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, very often we just send them to all of the sec-
retaries.
The Chairman, And ask them to pass resolutions along certain
party lines? It would not embrace the whole party line, but cer-
tain objectives that the party held in common with the organization ;
is that right?
Mr. DoLSEN. For instance, very often a matter is up in Congress
and we would have our standpoint and we would feel that the labor
unions should present a certain point of view and we would try to
use our influence to get them to do it.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, of course, the Communist
Party is designated as the vanguard of the proletariat, the general-
ship, and tlie theory of it is to have a trained group, trained in the
Communist theory and the Communist practice, and so that that
group then in case of emergency or revolution or crisis would be in
a position to take over and direct the revolutionary movement, that
ic the theory?
Mr. Dolsen. No, I would not say that that is quite correct. Our
theory is that in any kind of a movement, if the movement is to pro-
ceed and accomplish results, you have got to have leadership, and
then what does that mean ?
That means that, for example, you take a labor union, if in that
labor union there is a group who are specially trained and understand
the theory of labor unionism, and how to meet strike situations suc-
cessfully, and so forth, they furnish the leadership to that labor
union and the rank and file is ready to follow them provided their
policies are successful and practical, you see.
Now, the Communist Party looks upon itself in the whole working
class movement from the same standpoint, that its members should
be especially well educated and should get all of the experience that
they can, should try to understand the problems of the working
people, and be able to inter])ret those problems, and be able to show
the workers how they can direct their movement.
The Chairman. And to take the leadership in the particular or-
ganization? I don't mean leadership in the physical sense but to be
in a position to direct tlie organization?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I don't know whether that is quite correct,
vou see, because what I am trying to do is make it very plain to the
committee, to take a typical union, you see, and now we chm't so
much desire that our Communist members in that union shall be in
the actual leadershi]) of tlie union, we would ratlier as Ave ex])ress
it, push up some of these other people into these leading positions,
don't you see, to get them to understand how to lead an organization,
UX-AMEIUCAX PROPAC.ANDA ACTIVITIES 7377
while \\i' will holp niul coopenito Avith them the best that we can,
so that thev ran I'urnish the leadership that will really advance the
interest of that organization, and in that sense we woud rather stand
back, yon see.
Tlie Chairman. Be in the backo:ronnd and pnsh to the front?
]\Ir. Doi.sEx. We don't want to dictate in onr relations to the labor
oroanization.
The Chaikmax. Bnt yon wonld want to be snre that whoever is
pushed to the leadership would be sympathetic with the party line,
with the ol)jectives and aims of the party. You wonld not want
somebody who was against the party to be in a position of leadership.
]Mr. DoLSEN, We would not want them, those who were bitterly
against our party, to be in leadership, if we could prevent it, you
see, because of the fact that (generally, experience has shown that
those who are bitterly ()pi)osed to the Connnunist Party don't want
the working people to do any more than get a little more increase
in wages.
The Chairman. So that it then becomes the duty of the party
members to go into other organizations, is that true?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, our duty, I will say my duty, say for instance
I am a bricklayer, you see, my duty is to help to get all of the brick-
layers oi-ganized into their union, that is one of my duties, you see,
and the second one of my duties is to try to build up a good, clean,
efficient type of labor organization, and in the third place my duty
is to try to get those bricklayers in that union to realize that it is
not only a case of their individually getting a little better conditions,
but to help the rest of the working people also to get conditions
bettered, and relate the movement in that fashion.
The Chairman. So that dependent upon the training of an indi-
vidual Communist member, he is to go into such activities as will
enable him to advance the program of the Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairman. And therefore, say in your case, you joined a good
mauv organizations, did you not?
Mr. DoLsEN. Not so very many.
The Chairman. You were a member of labor unions ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. You were a member of the International Workers
Order?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. International Labor Defense?
Mr. DuLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. And in order that you might assist that organi-
zation in having the proper viewpoint, is that right?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right. Naturally, you see. we want to ad-
vance the interests also of our jjarty. I think the Democrats and
Re]Miblicans do the same thing.
The Chairman. You want to advance the interests of your party?
Mr. DoLsEN. Yes.
The Chairman. And you will have — let ns take a labor union, if
you have say 15 or 20 men in that labor union, is it their duty to
ineet separately from time to time to discuss the program^
Mr. DoLsEN. That used to be our policy, in the Comnuniist Party,
but it is not the policy at the present time and the reason why it is
7378 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
not the policy at the present time is that we believed that in general,
labor leadership, particularly in the C. I. O., is very progressive
under John L. Lewis, you see, and we feel that in general the policy
of the C. I. O. is a policy which is very progressive toward organized
labor, and toward all groups connected with it.
The Chairman. So that with respect to the C. I. O., you have
ceased, it has not been necessary?
Mr. DoLSEN. In all labor unions, we don't carry that previous pol-
icy through any longer, because now we think that the individual
Communist in a union has to have trained himself by this time to
the point that he will understand how to work with the rest of the
progressive people there, you see.
The Chairman. Now
Mr. DoLSEN. Just a minute, Mr. Dies, if I might explain, you see,
we believe that the influence of any Communist in a labor organiza-
tion, for example, does not depend on the fact that he is a Communist.
It depends on the fact of whether he understands the struggles and
interests of the mass of the membership of that organization, whether
he can identify himself with those interests, and whether the rank,
and file thinks that he is a sincere and honest man among men, you
see what I mean.
The Chairman. But that is not confined to labor unions, you go
into any organization?
Mr. DoLSEN. Any progressive group.
The Chairman. Where any part of the party line can be advanced?
Mr. DoLSEN. We are always interested in advancing the interests
of our party, naturally.
The Chairman. So that now when you go into these organizations,
if you can get a position such as secretary or president, that is a desir-
able thing, is it not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. It de-
pends upon circumstances, you see. Naturally in most cases, if a
Communist in a labor union, if the rank and file thinks that that
Communist is one of their best people, and one of their best leaders,
and the most active and honest and sincere type of a fellow, generally
the rank and file will want to have him be an officer.
The Chairman. But they won't know that he is a Communist?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, maybe they do and maybe they don't.
The Chairman. But don't you many times join the party under
another name? That is quite frequent practice, is it not, for protec-
tion ?
Mr. DoLSEN. To join the party under another name except your
own?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right. Well, that has been a practice lately,
and the reason for it, of course, is that there was a danger that the
party was going to be outlawed, you see, and the danger still exists,
of course, and a lot of these workers have jobs on which the bread
and butter of their family depends, and now they have certain con-
victions, and they believe that they should be Communists and they
want to protect their family.
The Chairman. From any persecution or any discrimination?
Mr. DoLSEN. Because you can see how, here is a big corpoi-ation,
for example, and many big corporations just like it was before in
UX-AMl-naCAN rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7379
the Allofrheny Valley, in Pittsbur<;h, -where I lived, voii see, yoii
take Ali(}uip]ia and all of these steel cities before the C. I. O. came
ill and organized (he steel union, the worker in a steel iiiill could not
admit that he believed in a labor union and say it publicly because
he would be dischari2:ed and iret blacklisted, and could not <jet work
any place else, and now it is ditl'erent because he has the protection
thr()u<>li his union.
The CiiAiRMAx. Xow, tell me this. You are in the party under
a different name, are you not ?
Mr. DoLsEN. No; I am under my own name.
The Chairmax. Well, say, you have no objection to explaining
how this membership book with Franklin D. Roosevelt's name hap-
pened to iret in your files, and now, you know something about it?
Mr. DoLSEX. I just am willing to state this to 3'ou, that that
belongs to some other person, you see, who used that name for his
protection.
The Chairmax. Whv would he want to use the name of the Presi-
dent of the United States?
Mr. DoLSEX. I am sure that I don't know.
The Chairmax. Does the party permit members to use the names of
prominent public officials?
Mr. DoLSEX. A person can use any name that they want, we can't
control that, you see, because that is their own business.
The Chairmax. How did the book happen to be with vou at the
time ?
Mr. DoLSEx. Because it was left with me to get the dues stamps
and have them put in there. In other words, you will notice that
there is a dues stamp for each month.
The Chairmax. And it Avas left with you and that is how it hap-
pened to be in there ?
Mr. DoLSEX. Yes.
The Chairmax. So far as you are concerned, do you have your
membership card ?
Mr. DoLSEX. I have it but it was not in my room when Mr. Bar-
ker came.
The Chairiniax. Are you quite sure that you did not have the con-
tents of these folders in other parts of your room ?
Mr. DoLSEX. Oh, no.
The Chairmax. You did not have them?
Mr. DoLSEX. No. That is wdiy I was so surprised.
The Chairmax. You put the dues stamp — it is your duty to put
the dues stamp on all of the books?
Mr. DoLSEX. It is not my duty, no; unless it is given to me to
have the dues stamp put in, you see. You may go, don't you see, a
comrade may give you his book and ask you to go there and have
a stamp put in there for him.
The Chairmax. But it is not your official duty ; who do you go to,
for instance, this individual who was going under the*^ name of
Franklin I). Roosevelt, who did you take that book to or who would
you have taken that book to, to get his dues stamp put in?
Mr. DoLSEN. I would get the dues stamp from the secretary of the
party.
The Chairmax. From the secretary of the party ?
Mr. DoLSEX. Yes.
7380 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. And you just put it on?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chaibman. Why didn't he go directly to the secretary, just a
matter of convenience?
Mr. DoLSEN. I suppose so. I don't know why he did it, except
that he merely handed it to me.
The Chairman. That does not happen often, does it ?
Mr, DoLSEN. No, because usually the member goes to his branch,
don't you see, and has it done.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, most of the members of the
party use some other name than their own?
Mr. DoLSEN. I can't say whether most of them do or not.
The Chairman. You have seen a great many of these books, have
you not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I haven't seen so very many.
The Chairman. From the ones that you have seen and from your
meeting in the branches with others, is it not almost a common prac-
tice now to use someone else's name?
Mr. DoLSEN. I can't say because I have not enough experience, but
I know that for instance you take in steel mills and places like that,
where there may be some danger, or the man or woman thinks that
there is a danger of their being victimized, generally they take some
other name.
The Chairman. Do you keep a record of the membership?
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't.
The Chairman. Did you ever see a record of the membership in
Allegheny County?
Mr. DoLSEN. I never saw it.
The Chairman. Do you know how it is handled ?
Mr. Dolsen. I don't know how it is handled but I presume that
there is somebody responsible for it but I don't know who that person
is and I never had the job of taking the record.
The Chairman. Of course you have your own branch that you
go to?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. And do you know the section organizers of the
Comnnniist Party in and around Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. I know some of them.
The Chairman. Do you have any objection to giving the names
of the ones that you know?
Mr. Dolsen. I would prefer not to.
The Chairman. Why would you prefer not to ?
Mr. DoLSEN. For that same reason, self -protect ion and protection
to them, I don't think that you should insist upon it.
The Chairman. Now, let us see about this question of discipline.
Your party teaches discipline, does it not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; there is a section right there.
The Chairman. For instance, if you did not follow the decisions
of the party, you would have to get out of the party, would you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; I could leave it voluntarily or be expelled.
The Chairman. Now, in turn, the Communist Party of the United
States is disciplined by the Communist International, is it not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, as I understand the relation betw^een the Com-
munist Party of the United States and the Communist International
is that it is one of what they call fraternal affiliation.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7381
The Chairman. But if the Coinniunist Internatioiuil hiid clown a
pni'ty lino and the Connnunist Party of the United States did not
fojiow that line, they would he disciplined, would they not ^
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't know. That is, the disciplinary power of the
Conununist International, I don't know, but generally I imagine that
since the delegates from tlie American Communist Party i^articipate
with delegates from other parties, at the making of the (h^cisions,
you see, those decisions are more or less binding upon them.
The Chairman. Now, that is necessary in order to bring about
world-wide cohesion, unity of purposes and policies.
Mr. DoLSEN. Of course, the Conununist International, if you read
the statutes of the Conununist Internaticmal you will see that they
make lai'ge provision for what ahnost would be a sort of an autonomy
in a country, because they don't know all of the intimate situations
that arise, you see, from time to time.
The Chairman. But you know it to be duty on the part of the
member of the C(Mnmunist Party to follow the party line as laid down
by the Coninuuiist International, is that not true?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, and as expressed by the individual national
parties.
The Chairman. That is right.
Mr. DoLSEN. Now, of course, the individual does not have any
direct relationship to the Communist International.
The Chairman. His relationship is, of course, being a member of
the party, which is in turn a member of the Communist International.
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; so that in etfect his duty is to follow the part}"^
line as it is laid down by the central body in Moscow. But the Com-
munist here in the United States, it is his duty to follow the line laid
down by the Comnuniist Party in the United States through its con-
ventions and so forth.
The Chairman. But you said a moment ago that it is the duty of
the Communist Party itself to follow the line laid down by the Com-
munist International.
Mr. DoLSEN. I don't want to be misunderstood on that. What I
said, or what I meant to say, if I did not say it, was that there is,
as I understand, you see I am not a member of the national com-
mittee so I don't know the details of this, but as I understand, it is a
fraternal affiliation, you see, under which the decisions of the Com-
munist International are given to the American Party and the
American Party acts upon those decisions, either confirming or re-
jecting them, and I suppose if they reject them they notify the
Communist International why, and then they discuss it later.
]Mr. Thomas. Might I ask a question there? In that description
of the tie-up, that does not agree with the description given to this
connnittee by your cousin.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, if there is any discrepancy between them 1
should imagine that Earl Browder is in much more qualihed posi-
tion than I am to be an expert upon the Conununist Party of
America.
The Chairman. I think that he stated the same thing that all of
them do. He says tliat in effect, he said a few moments ago that
if the Comnuniist Party of the International didn't follow a deci-
sion, final decision of the Communist International, they would
have to get out.
7382 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. I beg your pardon ?
The Chairman. After they had discussed it and conferred about
it, if the Communist International said, "You have got to take this
decision," the party would follow the party line as laid down by the
Communist International.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, you see, I can't say what they would do or
would not do but theoretically it would look as if that would be the
relationship.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Dolsen said that the relationship was a fraternal
relationship.
Mr. DoLSEN. That is what I understand.
Mr. Thomas. And his cousin did not call it a fraternal relation-
ship.
Mr. DoLSEN. I didn't know what he called it. I wasn't here.
The Chairman. You are an American citizen?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
The Chairman. You were born in the United States?
Mr. DoLSBN. My people were here a long time.
The Chairman. You were a charter member in the Communist
Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, let us take what your relationship is to the
Communist Party, or we will say, to Russia.
Suppose tliat the United States entered war and Russia was on
one side and the United States on the other side, you would not
support the United States in such a war, would you?
Mr. DoLSEN. Let me make this statement.
In the first place, of course. I can hardly conceive of a situation
in which the United States and the Soviet Union would be engaged
in a war. That is the first thing.
The second thing is that I would be against any war waged for
imperialist purposes, if the United States were engaged in a war
for imperial purposes, to expand its territory, you see, or to interfere
in the affairs of some other nation, or something like this, I cer-
tainly would be opposed to that war, you see, and now let me make
it a little bit clearer.
For instance, you have the case of the war made by Japan against
China. Now, I support the war which the Chinese carry on against
Japan, but I don't support the war which the Allies carry on against
Germany, not that I support German}', as against the Allies, either.
The Chairman. But the point that I am making is simply this:
That if the United States clid enter a war with Russia, you would
regard that as an imperialist war?
Mr. Dolsen. If such a war were entered into by the United States,
against the Soviet Union, that it would be ipso facto an imperialist
war because I can't conceive of the Soviet Union, that is, taking such
a position, or a position of aggression against the United States.
The Chairman. And regarding it as an imperialistic war, you
could not support the United States in such a war?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; if that were an imperialistic war, because I
don't want to be like they said, you know, to the fellow, "Have
you stopped beating your wife yet."
Well, if he said "yes," it meant he had been beating her, and
if he said "no" —
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7383
^Ir. Casey. Did you approve of the acquisition of Polish territory
by Russia ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I approved of the action of the Soviet Union in
taking over the eastern part of Poland on this basis.
Mr. Casey. Never mind the basis.
Mr. Dolsen. AA'ell. just a minute. I think if you ask me a ques-
tion
Mr. Casey. I am g'oino: to ask you another question.
Did you approve of tlie Russian war against Finland?
Mr. DoLSEX. I approved of the Soviet
Mr. Casey. You can answer that (juestion "yes" or "no."
I\Ir. Dolsen. Now, just a minute, I have a right to qualify the
answer.
^Ir. Casey. You have no right but to answer the question "yes"
or "no."
Mr. Dolsen. I will answer it "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Casey. Never mind the explanation.
Mr. Dolsen. Then I refuse to answer a point-blank question
like that, if I don't have the right to explain it, Mr. Casey.
Mr. Casey. I am just asking you, did you approve or did you
not approve of that Russian war against Finland?
Mr. Dolsen. I approved that war under those particular cir-
cumstances.
Mr. VooRHis. Did you think it a war of aggression ?
Mr. Dolsen. I consider it was not a war of aggression.
Mr. VoORHis. You did not think Russia was conducting a war
of aggression?
Mr. Dolsen. Russia could not be classified there as an aggressor.
Mr. Starnes. Russia invaded Finland's territory.
Mr. Dolsen. Technically, the Soviet Armies went into Finnish
territory, that is correct, but I think that you have to look a little
bit under the formalities of what appeared to be. In other words,
if it is true that Great Britain and France had sent enormous
supplies of war munitions previously to Finland and that the
Mannerheim Line had been built under the personal direction of
General Kirk, of the British Army General Staff, and had just
been inspected last year and approved by him as impregnable, then
the fact that it was about 20 miles away from the second largest)
city of Soviet Russia and a city which controlled one-quarter of
Soviet industry, indicated, along with the past actions of the leaders
of what is or was the present Finnish Government, that that country
was being used as a means by which to direct an assault at the
proper time against the Soviet Union and from that standpoint I
consider in regard to this whole world situation that that was not
an aggressive war by the Soviet Union against Finland.
Mr. Starnes. AVould you approve the sale of war material and
planes to Finland under the circumstances?
Mr. Dolsen. I would not. That is, to the Helsinki government, the
Mannerheim government.
Mr. Starnes. You would, however, to the Kasink government.
Didn't he set up a government?
^Ir. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You would have approved sales to that government ?
Mr- Dolsen. Yes.
7384 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Ml- Starnes. And you do approve the sales of raw materials and
planes that the United States has made to the Soviet Union?
Mr. DoLSEN, That is right.
Mr. Starnes. Well, then, I didn't get the first part of your testi-
mony. You were born in San Francisco ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What was the date of your birth ?
Mr. Dolsen. 1885.
Mr. Starnes. Did you serve in the last World War, 1917 and 1918 ?
Mr. Dolsen. No ; I did not. I was examined for it, and was about
to have passed, and they asked me why I wore glasses, so they took
off my glasses, and the examining officer said :
You would be dangerous because you would bo more likely to sboot your own
American officer that you could see than some German that you could not see. ■
Mr. Starnes. What was your occupation at the time of the World
War, do you recall; what were you engaged in at that time?
Mr. Dolsen. Part of the time I was an organizer for the Socialist
Party and a speaker and lecturer for them.
Mr. Starnes. Did you teach in the public schools, high schools, or
colleges of this country at any time prior to the World War ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; I taught in the log-cabin schoolhouses, several
of them, in Montana.
Mr. Starnes. You said you went to school at Beloit College in
Wisconsin for 2 years ?
Mr Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. What years were those?
Mr. Dolsen. 1905 to 1907.
Mr. Starnes. When did you go to Northwestern Law School?
Mr. Dolsen. I think that was in 1914.
Mr. Starnes. At Evanston, 111. ?
Mr. Dolsen. The law school is in Chicago, or was at that time.
I believe it has been moved since then. I don't know.
Mr. Starnes. Did you teach after the war in high schools any-
where ?
Mr. Dolsen. After the war, I taught evening classes, but I did not
teach in the public schools, if that is what you mean.
Mr. Starnes. I asked whether you taught in the public schools
or not.
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Starnes. By the way, when did you move to Wisconsin?
Did you ever live in Wisconsin ?
Mr. Dolsen. I never lived in Wisconsin except during the period
that I went to college there.
Mr. Starnes. When did you first go abroad ?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, evidently that was in 1926. I thought it was
1927.
Mr. Starnes. Was that the same time that Mr. Browder went
abroad, Earl Browder, that you recall, went to China in 1926 or
1927?
Mr. Dolsen. I don't know when he went abroad, you see.
Mr. Starnes. You were there until 1931, however?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
UN-AMEKICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7385
Mr. Starnes. Did 3^011 reside continuously in China from 1926 to
1931 'i
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Staknes. And your residence wjis in Pekin^r ?
Mr. DoLsEN. No; I was in different parts of China; I was in
Pekinjv and Hanivow and Shanghai and Hong Kong.
Mr. Staknes. Did you see Mr. Browder at any time while you
were there in those 5 years?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes ; I did see him, I met him there several times, I
forget just what year it was.
^Ir. Starnes. But he was there several times?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know whether he was there several times.
]\rr. Starnes. I do not mean that; you saw him several times?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Now, what other leading American Communist did
you see during that period of 5 years in China; name some of them
for us.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I do not know what other leading American
Communists I saw there.
iMr. Starnes. What did you see of other Communists, did you see
any French Communists there or Russian Communists there?
^Ir. DoLSEN. There were French Communists there.
Mr. Starnes. Who were they?
Mr. DoLSEN. AVell, I do not remember what their names were; I
think that one of them was a young fellow named
jNIr. Starnes. Did you see Jocdario, the French Communist?
Mr. DoLSEN. I am not sure, I believe that I met him, I think that
he is a rather heavy-set fellow, I am not certain, though.
Mr. Starnes. Did you see Tom Mann while you were there in
China ?
Mr. Dolsen. I did not.
Mr. Starnes. Did you know whether or not he was in China dur-
ing that 5-year period?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Starnes. Now, what about any German Communists ; did you
see any German Communists there during that period?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Name some of them.
Mr. Dolsen. I do not recall the names; you know that was quite
awKile ago, and I do not recall them, but I did meet some German
Conununists.
Mr. Starnes. I am trying to get you to refresh your recollection,
that is why I am asking you these questions. When did you leave
China?
Mr. Dolsen. In 1931.
Mr. Starnes. Did you go directly from China to Russia?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
^fr. Starnes. You traveled up the Siberian way across Siberia?
IVfr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. When did Browder leave China, if you recall?
INfr. Dolsen. T do not know when he left China.
Mr. Starnes. Do you recall the last time that you saw him there;
do you remember what year it was in?
7386 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN". No ; that is what I stated previously, that I had seen
him many times, or several times, but I did not remember what year.
Mr. Staknes. I am tryinf^ to refresh your recollection about it. Do
you recall that you saw him over a period of years, durino; those
several years, or did you see him several times in a single year ?
Mr. DoLSEN. As I recall it, when I saw him several times it was
within about a week or so.
Mr. Starnes. Within a week or so?
Mr. DoLSEN*. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Where was that, in Peking?
Mr. DoLSEN. In Shanghai.
Mr. Starnes. Was there anyone with him at that time?
Mr. DoLSEN. What is that?'
Mr. Starnes. Was there anyone with him at that time, travelings
with him or associated with him ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not think so.
Mr. Starnes. What was the purpose of his visit there at that time,
Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. DoLSEN. I understood that he was going to help what was
called the Pan-Pacific Secretariat of Labor Unions.
Mr. Starnes. Now, when you left — or when did you first leave the
United States ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was the first time, in 1926.
Mr. Starnes. How did you travel ; did you go from San Fran-
cisco ?
Mr. Dolsen. No ; I went from New York City.
Mr. Starnes. What years were you in the Philippine Islands?
Mr. DoLSEN. That was, I think, in 1930.
Mr. Starnes. In 1930?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. You came over, then, to the Philippines or down to
the Philippines from China, prior to the time that you went from
China into Russia?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; it was either in 1929 or 1930, I do not recall
which.
Mr. Starnes. What was the purpose of your visit to the Philippines?
Mr. Dolsen. My purpose was to contact in the Philippines the
International Labor Defense of the Philippines.
Mr. Starnes. Who headed that movement at that time in the
Philippines ?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, I do not remember who headed it, but there
was a fellow called Evangelist there who was the head of the Com-
munist Party there, and I think that he still is.
The Chairman. We will have to resolve ourselves into a subcom-
mittee of Mr. Starnes, the Chairman, and Mr. Thomas, in order to
be able to do business. Proceed.
Mr. Starnes. Did you contact Evangelist there?
Mr. Dolsen. I did not see him myself.
Mr. Starnes. Wliom did you contact?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not remember, there were several Filipinos who
were members of the Labor Defense over there.
Mr. Starnes. And what was the specific mission, because you cer-
tainly must have had some specific mission or some task in mind that
caused you to leave your work in China and come there.
UX-AMEia(\VX PKOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7387
Mr. DoLsEx. As I recall it, Evanjjelist and some others had been
r.rrested in some demonstration over there, and the Philip])ine Labor
Defense \vas foi-mino- loj^ether to raise funds for their defense, and
lie was goin<j to ^o on trial. I believe.
Mr. Starnes. AVhat was the demonstration in which he was en-
^a^ed ^
Mr. DoLSKX. Well, as I remember it, it was a demonstration
fiorain^it the outlawino; of the party there, that is, in other words, they
Avanted to have a leiral opportunity to carry on their propaganda,
that is wliat I remember.
Mr. Starnes. Did you see anyone from the United States who was
connected with the Communist Party and its activities on the occa-
sion of your visit to the Philippines?
^fr. DoLSEN. I do not remember.
^Ir. Starnes. Did you go there under instructions from the Inter-
jiational Red Aid. or did you go under instructions from the Com-
munist Party of the United States.
Mr. DoLSEx. Where do you mean?
Mr. Starnes. To the Philippines from China?
Mr. DoLSEX'. I went under instructions of the International Red
Aid.
Mr. Starnes. You went under the instructions of the International
Eed Aid?
]Mr. DoLSEN. Yes: there were instructions from them that I go
over there and meet those people and help them to organize a defense
fund, you see. to raise money for their defense in the courts. I think
that there was going to be a trial or something of that kind.
Mr. Starnes. You wrote this book, Awakening in China ?
Mr. DoLSEx-. Yes.
Mr. Starxes. At what time did you write that book?
Mr. DoLSEN. I wrote that book, I think, the end of 1925; it was
written before I went to China.
Mr. Starxes. And Browder wrote a book entitled "Civil War in
:Nationalist China"'?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know whether he did or not, I never saw it.
Mr. Starnes. You never saw it?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Starxes. You do not know that that is listed among his writ-
ings or publications?
Mr. Dolsen. I never saw it.
Ml'. Starxes. Well, I did not ask vou that.
Ml'- DoLSEX. I mean that I do not know.
Mr. Starxes. From reputation do you know whether he did or did
not (
Mr. DoLSEx Xo.
Mr. Starnes You do not know, then, that Browder mentioned in
his book, The Civil Wnv in Nationalist China, his connection with
Tom Mann and Jocdario in China during that time?
Mr. DoLsEX'. Xo; because I have never seen the book.
Mr. Starxes. And was that during the time that you saw him in
China (
Mr. DoLSKX. I do not know, because I never saw the book.
Mr. Starxes. I understand, but there was a so-called civil war in
China, was there not?
7388 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right, about half a dozen of them.
Mr. Starnes. You know tliat the Comintern sent Tom Mann and
Earl Browder to China during that period?
Mr. DoLSEN. Sent whom?
Mr. Starnes. Tom Mann and Earl Browder to China during this
so-called civil war ]3eriod over there, they were sent over thei'e?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know who sent them.
IMr. Starnes. You know it is a matter of public knowledge or
public repute that they did send them, and they were there?
Mr. DoLSEN. I beg your pardon, but I do not know that, maybe it
was.
Mr. VooRHis. I believe that Mv. Browder so testified.
Mr. Starnes. INIr. Browder did testify as to that in his testimony
before this committee.
You did meet Browder while he was in China ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Now, when did you come back from the Soviet Union
to the United States?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think that it was in 1936.
Mr. Starnes. Did you stay in the Soviet Union ?
Mr. DoLSEN. It was either in 1936 or 1935; I have forgotten.
Mr. Starnes. Did vou stay in the Soviet Union continuously from
1931 until 1935 or 1936 ?
Mr. Dolsen. I was in the Soviet Union during that period, yes.
Mr. Starnes. That is not the question that I asked, — of course,.
you were there during that period, but did j^ou remain there continu-
ously during that period of time i
Mr. Dolsen. You mean whether I was in and out of there?
Mr. Starnes. Yes; did you stay in there all of the time, or did you
make visits out of the Union?
Mr. Dolsen. I was out of the Union several times.
Mr. Starnes. What countries did you visit, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. Dolsen. I was in Germany and France and I was in what
was formerly Austria.
Mr. Starnes. Did you visit in Prague?
Mr. Dolsen, Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Did you visit in the then Republic of Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. Whom did you confer with in Czechoslovakia ?
Mr. Dolsen. With the representative of the International Red Aid
for that country.
Mr. Starnes. Now, during this period of time when you were
visiting Germany, or before I go into that I would like to ask you if
you ever visited England while you were there?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Starnes. At no time did you come to England ?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Starnes. When you visited France and Germany and Czecho-
slovakia, how were you traveling? I understand under what aus-
pices, but were you traveling as a private citizen of the United
States, or traveling as a representative of the International Red Aid,
or in any other representative capacity?
Mr. Dolsen. I went there to those countries as a representative of
the International Red Aid.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7389
Mr. Stahnes. "What Avas your specific purpose or task?
Mr. DoLSEN. My si)eci}ic purjujse was to meet there llie representa-
tives of tliose countries, and give to them instructions in regard to
what the International Ked Aid considered that they should do,
and to receive from them a report as to what they had been doing.
Mr. Starxes. And to whom were you to give the gist of that
report ?
Mr. DoLSEX. "When I came back I was to turn them in to tlie
International Ked Aid in ^Moscow.
Mr. Stakxes. And then vou came home, back to the United States
in 1935 or 1936; is that correct?
Mr. DoLSEX. That is correct.
Mr. Starxes. And you innnediately thereafter went on the relief
roITs?
Mr. DoLSEX. Well, not immediately, but some time afterward.
Mr. Starxes. A very short time?
Mr. DoLSEX. Not such a long time.
Mr. Starxes. You were on the relief rolls in 1937 and 1938, you
had to be in order to get that 18 months' period that you testified
about, and when you got on the relief rolls you were used as an
educational advisor or instruction aid m trade unionism and labor
policies ^
Mr. DoLSEX. Well, we were called instructors, you see, and for
instance the head of the project had to organize or get organized
groups of workers who wanted to have an instructor come to them,
and maybe they wanted somebody to tell them about these subjects.
Mr. Starxes. I get that, but I understand the connection and how
you were used. You were assigned to that specific task, but the
specific task that you had was teaching trade unionism, and the
history of the labor movement to these people ?
Mr. Dolsex. Yes, and parliamentaiy laAv, and in fact we were
supposed to teach them anything that had something to do with
labor.
]Mr. Starxes. You had studied parliamentiary law and procedure?
Mr. Dolsex. I knew it veiy well.
]Mr. Starxes. And you understood labor tactics and labor organ i-
zation technique I
Mr. Dolsex. That is right.
]Mr. Starxes. And you were considered to be an expert or a man
skilled in those respective fields?
Mr. Dolsex. Well, I think that I may say without any boasting
Mr. Starxes. Go ahead. I am assuming that you are being mod-
est— I am asking the question.
Mr. Dolsex. Without any boasting, the instructor told me. the
head of the i)roject. that I was by far the best teacher that they had,
and undoubtedly I would be able to get back there, if it had not
been for the fact that I am a known Communist, you see.
Mr. VooRHis. Were you dismissed for that reason?
Mr. Dolsex. No; not for that reason, but I was dismissed under
the 18 months' rule, but the reason that I could not get back was
that I was a known Comnuinist in the city.
Mr. Starxes. Let us get l)ack to China for a moment. Were 3'ou
engaged in newsjiaj^er work the entire time that you were there ? "^
]Mr. Dolsex. No.
7390 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. What other work did you do?
Mr. DoLSEN. Besides beino- editor of this newspaper, I was the
representative of the International Red Aid in China, and I had
to meet with tlie representatives of the Chinese Red Aid, and they
would give reports, and I would discuss them with them, what
their tactics should be, and I might explain that if you gentlemen
remember it, you will remember that from about 1927 on there was
a terrible repression of Communists in China, their heads were
chopped off, and all of that sort of thing, and we were at that time
engaged in trying to get support in other countries for these Com-
munists, you see, and so as to ameliorate their condition.
Mr. Starnes. And you were making your reports, I mean you
were giving advice and assistance as a representative of the Inter-
national Red Aid, and you were making re^^orts to the International
Red Aid on your work ?
Mr. DoLSEN. On the work of the Chinese.
Mr. Starnes. And as to the progress that they were making?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. How often did you make those reports ?
Mr. Dolsen. They were made very irregularly, but on the average
once a month, you see.
Mr. Starnes. Now, was it necessary during the course of your
work there for you to make any purchases on the part of the Inter-
national Red Aid or to sign any leases on behalf of the International
Red Aid? Did you in fact enter into any contracts over there with
anyone or sign any leases, deeds, or anything of that kind, for and
on behalf of the International Red Aid ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Starnes. Did you do it on behalf of yourself or anyone else?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, for instance. I had a place in which I lived,
and I had to rent that place, you see.
Mr. Starnes. And they required you to sign leases?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. When you traveled out of the Soviet Union, through
1931 to 1935 and 1936, whatever year it was, we will understand that
that is approximately right, from whom did you obtain your pass-
ports ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, when I left America I had my passport here,
of course, and then I renewed it, you see.
Mr. Starnes. You had that one passport renewed, permitting you
to go from China into the Soviet Union and from the Soviet Union
you had it renewed so you could go to Germany?
Mr. DoLSEN. No, I beg your pardon, that is not the way they do it.
You have your passport, and I forget just how long it is good for,
but we will say 5 or 6 years, and if you are abroad you have to get
it renewed again, and if you go from one country to another you
get what they call visas, with the stamp of the consul on it.
Mr. Starnes. Now, did the Soviet Union take up your passport
when you entered that country?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Starnes. When did they give it back to you, if they ever gave
it back to you ?
Mr. Dolsen. "Wlien I had to leave that country and go out of the
country.
UN-AMERICAN rKOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7391
Mr. Staknes. When you say that you had to leave, wliy did you
have to leaved Was it* because of the termination of your employ-
ment or what'^
Mr. DoLSKN. I do not say tliat I had to h^ave.
Mr. Staknks. 1 am just nsin<r your i)hrase<)h)gy.
Mr. l)t)LSEN. I did not know that I said that but if I did what I
meant was that I wanted to come back to America ; I had been away
about 8 years, and I wanted to come back to this country.
JSIr. SiAHXES. Did you liave passport or visas renewed each time
in your own name?
Mr. Doi.sEN. That is ri<rht.
Mr. Staknes. And did you travel into Germany under the name
of James Dolsen, and into France the same way?
Mr. DoLSEN. Always. Every place I went, I went under my own
name.
Mr. Stahnes. Wlio reconunended you for this position with the
International Red Aid that caused you to go to China in the first
place, in 1925 or 1926 ? ...
Mr. Dolsen. Well, that was a peculiar combination of circum-
stances. This book which you introduced here on China, The
Awakening in China, that was written by me in conjunction with
some Chinese people in San Francisco, before I had gone to China,
and it was as a result of that book, you see, that I w^as selected.
When the International Red Aid asked that somebody should be
sent to China as their representative, who could speak English, I was
selected to go.
Mr. Starxes. Who selected you?
Mr. Dolsex. I AAas selected by the American Communist Party.
Mr. Starxes. Who was the head of that party at that time?
Mr. Dolsex. Lovestone.
Mr. Starx'es. Jay Lorestone?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Starxes. You do know William Z. Foster?
Mr. Dolsex. Very well.
Mr. Starxes. And you do know Max Bedacht?
Mr. Dolsen. Very well.
Mr. Starxes. And you do know William W^einer? He is the Na-
tional Secretary.
Mr. Dolsex. I only know him by reputation.
]\Ir. Starxes. Yovi know all of these men either from personal
knowledge or by reputation: they are leaders in the Communist
movement in the United States?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Starnes. Because I believe you stated that you were with the
party from its inception?
Mr. DoLSEX'. Yes. sir.
Mr. vStarnes. Have you been out of the United States since 193G?
Mr. Doi.sEX. I liave not.
Mr. Starnes. Since your return ?
Mr. Dolsen. No, sir.
Mr. Starnes. I believe tliat that is all.
The Chairman. There are one or two questions and then Ave will
adjourn until after lunch. I wanted to complete the picture that you
940:!1— 40— vol. 12 13
7392 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
gave here a few mim;tes ago of the Communist workings in Pitts-
burgh.
You are acquainted with most of the Communists there, are you
not?
Mr. DoLSEN. I know most of them? I would not say with most
of them ; I am acquainted with many of them.
The Chairman. You have been in many meetings witli them, branch
meetings, and general meetings over a long period of time?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You say that there are about 900 members there,
in Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That does not include the sympathizers that you
testified about?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman. What do you place the total esthnate of the sym-
pathizers at?
Mr. DoLSEN. That would be very difficult to say, because nobody
knows.
The Chairman. From your experience with the sympathizers, there
is a greater number than the number of the actual members?
Mr. Dolsen. Undoubtedly, that is always true.
The Chairman. Now, you mentioned the 900, and what percentage
of them were, for instance, in labor unions?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, that also would be very difficult, because you
see they were not classified according to whether they were in unions
or not.
The Chairman. Well, knowing the men and seeing them and hear-
ing them talk, would you say the majority of them were affiliated
with some labor union?
Mr. DoLAN. Well, if you include an unemploj^ed organization, I
would say "Yes," as a labor union.
The Chairman. Now, when you met in your branch meetings, did
you have discussions about what went on in particular shops in which
members worked ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Not generally.
The Chairman. What were the discussions about in the brancli
meetings?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, for instance, take like at the present time: you
see, it can be illustrated, we will say that tliere is a meeting of the
Communist Party branch, and what do they take up? They take up
principally at the present time the question of the war, is this an
imperialistic war, and if it is an imperialistic war, then what should
our attitude be ?
The Chairman. Let the record show that we have gone back into
the full committee.
But the members as they go into the branch meetings, that is a
secret meeting, is it not, in the sense that no one can go except a mem-
ber of the party ?
Mr. Dolsen. If it is a regular branch meeting, then only members
of the party can go in, just like a union meeting.
The Chairman. But sometimes you let the sympathizers come in?
Mr. Dolsen. Sometimes we have what we call open meetings.
The Chairman. At which time the sympathizers come in?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7393
Mr. DoLSEN. Or anybody ^vlio Avants to.
The Chairman. Now, each ineiiiber, of course, is familiar with the
coiulitions in his own shop?
Mr. DoLSEN. If lie works in a shop, he is sup[)ose(l (o be familiar
with it.
The Chairman. Does he report the conditions at the branch meet-
ings ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. Does he discuss those conditions in any sense?
Mr. DoLSEN. No, lie usually does not. Sometimes, for instance, we
will say that a man works in a certain mill, we will say, and the
l)arty, of course, at the present time desires that the mill workers shall
accept its viewpoint that this present war in Europe is an imperial-
istic Avar, and now naturally workers do not accept that, there are
all kinds of viewpoints, so that some comrade who is working in that
mill may meet with some responsible leader of the party, and dis-
cuss the objections that he meets among those workers in regard to
his views on the war, and how he can overcome that.
The Chairman. But it is the duty of the member to answer ques-
tions that any responsible leader has asked him ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, that is right.
The Chairman. If you are working in the steel mill, and a respon-
.sible l)arty leader Mants to find out Mhat is going on in that mill, it
is your duty to report that to him.
Mr, DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. And then in turn that responsible party leader
may see fit to report the same information to the national organiza-
tion in New York?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes ; if it is important enough.
The Chairman. So that through that means, the international
leaders keep fully informed on what is going on throughout the
United States.
Mr. DoLSEN. They have their finger on the pulse of what you call
the public.
The Chairman. Now, how many representatives of the -Communist
International or the Soviet Unioi'i have you met hi and about Pitts-
burgh, in that area?
Mr. DoLsEN. Well, representatives of the Soviet Union. I have not
met any.
The Chairman. Or of the Communist International?
Mr. DoLSEN. I have not met any.
The Chairman. You have not met any who has come in like you
did when you went into China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, you see, I did not come as a representative of
the Conuminist International; I came as a representative of the Red
Aid.
The Chairman. Have you had any Communists residing abroad,
affiliated with any of these organizati(ms, who has come into Pitts-
burgh to confer with your ]:)arty?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; not that I know of; not a single one.
The Chairman. Not that you knoAV of '^
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. And you never did correspond with Dozeiiber<r,
write him letters?
7394 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEx. No.
The Chairman, And he never did write you any letters?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. And you never did discuss any matters with him?
Mr. DoLSEN, No.
The Chairman. Pertaining- to the party?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The CHAnniAN. Pertaining; to anythinf^ in the Pittsburgh area ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
The Chairman. Did you know whether or not there was an intelli-
gence service in the United States of the Soviet Union?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know that : I know that it has been reported
before your committee.
The Chairman. But you never yourself heard of a G. P. U. here
in the United States?
Mr. DoLsEN. No.
The Chairman. You did not know whether or not Mr. Dozenberg
was connected in any way with that ojroup?
Mr. DoLSEN. As I say, I do not know anything about Dozenberg
except that at a time in Chicago, it must have been around 1924 or
1923 or so, I met him then.
The Chairman. But you yourself, when you were traveling for
the International Red Aid, you yourself made regular reports to the
international office in Moscow, did you not? You reported all infor-
mation that came to you directly to them ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; that had to do with the work of the Red Aid.
The Chairman. Any information that they wanted to know about
China, you gave it to them, did you not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Connected with the Red Aid ; that was my business.
The Chair:man. So that in turn, that is the duty of any party
member who is traveling for any of these international offices, is to
im])art the infoi-mation to the headquarters in Moscow?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask the witness a question right on
that point.* Is it not ti'ue that Dozenberg was in China at the same
time that you were in China ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know.
Mr. Thomas. You do know, do you not, that he was in the Philip-
pines at the same time that you were there ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know that, because I remember I did not
meet him there.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dolsen, where is the office located in Pittsburgh?
Mr. DcjLSEN. 305 Seventh Avenue.
Mr. Lynch. And who is in charge of the office ?
Mr. DoLSEN. George Powers.
Mr. Lynch. And how lonix liave you had that membership card
at your home that was identified here earlier in your testimony?
Mr. Dolsen. That is, I suppose, about 8 or 9 daj^s or so.
Mr. Lynch. And it is a Pittsl)urgh man, is it not?
Mr. DoLSEN. It is a Pittsburgh person.
Mr. Lynch. What is his name?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, that is what I stated that I did not care to
state.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7395
Mr. Thomas. Who signed that book there, wlio was the Secretary
who signed it'^
Mr. Lynch. ISIartin Young; is he the secretary?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Do you knoAv Martin Young?
Mr. DoLsEN. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know him by any other name?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
]Mr. Thomas. Do you "know him by the name of Leon Piatt?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Thomas. You have heard that he is known as Leon Piatt?
Mr. DoLSEN. I never heard of that name.
The Chaujman. We will come back at 2 : 30 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 1 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2 : 30 p. m.)
AFTEK RECESS
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2:40 p. m., pursuant to taking
a recess.)
Present: Messrs. Dies (chairman). Dempsey, and Thomas.
The Chairman. The committee Avill come to order.
STATEMENT OF JAMES HULSE DOLSEN— Resumed
Mr. Dolsen, is it a common practice for members of the Com-
munist Party to take out insurance policies payable to the party?
]\Ir. DoLSEN. No : I do not think it is.
The Chair:man. Have you any information of that being done
in many instances?
]Mr. DoLSEN. I do not knoAv.
The Chairman. You do not know of j'our own knowledge?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman. Do you know of any instance in which that has
been done?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know of any.
The Chairman. You do not know of any instance?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman. Now, of the 900 members that you have in Pitts-
burgh were those members active in a number of other organiza-
tions besides trade union organizations?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, in Pittsburgh there are not very many other
organizations.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Dolsen. In Pittsburgh thei-e are not very many other or-
ganizations there. There was a branch of the American League for
Peace and Democracy. A few of them were active in that and there
are some fraternal organizations, of course, like Polish and the
different language orfranizations.
The Chairman. Now, of tliese 900 how would you classify them
according to nationalities? Diti'erent nationalities belong to it?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; that is right.
The Chairman. Can you give us some idea of the nationalities in
that 900 members?
7396 un-aj\ierican propaganda activities
Mr. DoLSBN. You see, it is only sort of a general statement, be-
cause, as I say, I do not know what their different nationalities
are, but naturally it reflects all the different nationalities which are
in Pittsburgh and these nationalities principally are, as I understand
it, there is among them — a considerable number of the nationals are
Polish, Italian, JeAvish, if you can call that a nationality, and various
Slavic groups like the Czechoslovenes, Czechoslavs, the Czechs, the
Croatians, and people of that type.
The Chairman. What about your Negro population?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, yes, there is a big Negro population there. In
fact, with the exception of Philadelphia we have the biggest Negro
]3opulation in the State of Pennsylvania.
The Chairman. Do you have many members who are Negroes?
Mr. DoLSEN. Quite a number.
The Chairman. Now, as to tlie economic situation, do you have
many educated members of the Connnunist Party? I mean by that
graduates of high schools, colleges, and universities?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; quite a number. I could not estimate how
many, but quite a number, I think.
The Chairman. Quite a number of them?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Then, do you have many skilled workmen who
belong to the party ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; we have some.
The Chairman. Skilled workmen?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right; you mean, like carpenters and people
like that?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
The Chairman. Is it a representative group along economic lines;
do you have unemi)loyed and people who are employed, some mak-
ing small wages, and some who are making good wages?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes ; I think it is in general the sort of picture of the
community you could expect, but naturally, you know, in the higher
income brackets we do not have vei-y many.
The Chairman. I was not speaking of the higher incomes
Mr. DoLSEN (interposing). Just ordinary people.
The Chairman. About middle class?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; middle-class working people.
The Chairman. Did you participate in these various campaigns
to raise money for the Loyalist cause in Spain, for the Chinese, and
for different groups?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you participate in that?
Mr. DoLSEN. You mean personally ?
The Chairman. The Communist Party?
Mr, Dolsen. Oh, yes; that is right.
The Chairman. In raising money for these various causes ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right. You see, all of the campaigns, for
example, that were organized by our national party were in turn
carried out to the best of their ability by the various sections and
branches.
The Chairman. Did you up in Pittsburgh play an active part in
recruiting volunteers for Spain ?
UX-A.MKUIC.VX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7397
^Ir. DoLSEN. I do not know anythinor about tliat.
The Chairman. You do not know anything about that?
Mr. ])oLsEX. Xo.
The Chaikman. Do you know how many of your party members
■went to Spaing
jMr. DoLSEN. I know that tliere were some of them who did go
to Si)ain i
Tlie Chairman. Who did?
Mr. DoLsEN. Yes.
The CuAimrAN. Xow. with reference to religion, I notice in one
of your foKlers that you have some pamphlets dealing with the
question of religion. Do you make any effort to spread atheism?
Mr. DoLSEN. Xo. Yon see, in the membership of the party we do
not draw any distinctions noi- ask people what their religions are.
Xow, the Connnunist philosophy, as such, is a materialist philosophy,
of course, you see. In other words, the Communist philosophy be-
lieves it is natural forces which operate in the world and that every
business is to understand those forces and people to use and control
them. I might add a little bit to the answer, too.
The Chairman. Well, in other words, the Communist theory is
atheistic; that is, they do not believe in God?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, the philosophy of the movement is materialist.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes. It saj's that the world was created by natural
forces brought into being by natural forces and it is — what people
nnist do in order to advance is understand these natural forces around
them and try to hai'uess them and use them for constructive purposes.
The Chairman. You were in Russia, and as a matter of fact, you
are, of course, qualified to say that they taught that philosophy to
the student group everywhere, did they not I
Mr. DoLSEN. Do you mean in the universities and so forth?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, of course, I cannot say, only what my impression
was, because I did not go to those universities, but my own under-
standing is that in the schools they are taught natural philosophy,
and, you see, those of them who want to belong to the Conmiunist
Part}', or have any desire to, of course, they study Marxism, material-
ism, or economic determinism, as it is called, but in order to be a
member of the Communist Party you do not have to be an atheist;
you can be a Catholic or a Protestant. That is up to you yourself,
see?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. DoLSEN. I might, with your permission, illustrate the process
going on now in the Soviet Union which I think you had reference
to, in this way. see? For example, when a new city is laid out in
S(»me industrial sector, in laying out the plant the government is re-
quii-ed to lay out a whole city for the people and the workers who are
going to work and live there. '\^nien they do that, as I understand
it, they do not include churches, for example, among the buildings,
you see, and the workers go there, we will say, these young people
go there. Some of them are religious and some of them are not.
They find in that city facilities for all the things in which they are
interested around clubs and all of these kind of cultural accompani-
ments that go with it. They have a voice in the operation of their
7398 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
factory, and so forth, and gradually reliction or the religious expres-
sion sort of dies out, aUhough some people claim that there is sort of
a religious spirit in these workers in building up their own industries,
they have a voice in it, and they feel they are being constructive, which
the worker in America does not feel. He feels his employer is his
boss, a sort of an enemy of his, you see.
The Chairman. Do you have some professional people like school
teachers among your members? Have you any school teachers in
your membership ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not think we have got any school teachers.
The Chairman. Do you have any lawyers?
Mr. DoLSEN. We have some engineers, and people of that kind.
The Chairman. You have lawyers, engineers, and doctors?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, not very many, just a few.
The Chairman. So, you could not properly say all your appeal is
to people who are poverty-stricken ; your appeal is to different groups,
peo])le to whom intellectual appeal is made, and so forth, is that
cori'ect ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I would explain it this way : Our appeal basically is
to the great mass of the working people, but from our standpoint
the middle class and the professional people are basically in their
economic interests, and their future is linked up with the interests
of the great mass of the people, see?
The Chairman. When did the united front as a strategy or tactic
come into existence in this country ? When did you first begin to
operate through the united front move?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not recall exactly; I believe it was about 1935 or
1936, 1 am not sure. It may have been a little bit before that. The
whole matter was discussed, I know, at one of tlie meetings of the
Communist International. It was begun primarily to crystalize the
front of the people in the different countries on an antiwar program.
The Chairman. Did you put that strategy into effect in and about
Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, we did the best we could.
The Chairman. Did you have success with it?
Mr. DoLSEN. I would not say we had a great deal of success.
The Chairman. Have you abandoned it recently?
Mr. DoLSEN. No. Now, our policy in regard to organizing anti-
war groups is that organized labor itself must take that initiative,
that before it was a case of the middle class elements taking more
or less leadership, but now the leadership is falling into the hands
of the working class directly because of the fact that large elements
among the middle class are all up in the air over the present situa-
tion. They do not know where they are going. They do not under-
stand fundamentally what is involved. What I am giving you, of
course, is our standpoint, you see.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. DoLSEN. You must understand when I say "our understand-
ing," that I am not trying to qualify as an expert on the Communist
Party because I am not one of the main leaders, see, but I am just
giving you as I understand it.
The Chairman. Well, you have given considerable study to the
whole thing.
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7399
The Chairman. You would be reoarded as an expert, would you
not? They sent you abroad in recojinition of your qualifications.
Mr. DoLSEX. I could not say. I do not know. That is, I believe
that I understand the nioA'enient and its philosophy, because I have
been active and sacrificed a oood deal for it.
Mr. Lynch. ]\Ir. Dolsen, this exhibit which was referred to here,
just foi- the benefit of the connnittee nieml^ers who were not here be-
fore when we discussed this matter, you printed the name m here,
did you not [indicatino; J ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. The uauie '"Franklin D. Roosevelt" and the other
writino- or print which a])]iears on the first page of this book?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. That was issued, as you have said to a person
Mr. DoLSEN (interposing). That is right.
Mr. Lynch (contiiuiing). AVho is a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is correct.
Mr. Lynch. And it appears from this book that the person was
a member before 1940, this year ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. It is a renewal for the year 1940?
ISIr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And you also said, and it is correct, that the person
to whom it was issued did not bear the name Franklin D. Roosevelt ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. He has some other name?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
jMr. Lynch. And he insisted that he use the name Franklin D.
RooseA'elt ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is correct.
Mr. Lynch. And you attempted to persuade him not to use it,
but to use some other name such as Jones or Smith?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not remember; it was not a very good name to
use.
Mr. Lynch. But you did try to get him to use some other name?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Why did you point that out to him?
Mr. Dolsen. Because I knew Franklin D. Roosevelt was not a
member of the Communist Party and never would be, in my opinion.
]\Ir. Lynch. Yet he insisted on using it and you printed his name
in there?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Yon came into possession of this book [indicating]
because he gave it to you to have his dues stamp pasted in there ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes: that is right.
]Mr. Lynch. And he paid his dues?
]Mr. Dolsen. And there, of course, is a list of the members whose
names appear on these Ijooks of our secretary's office, I expect,
wherever they are, like in Chicago, or Pittsburgh, or wherever they
are, I suppose so.
Mr. Lynch. If the list should ever be published it would appear
on there because this apparently is an official book issued in the
7400 UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA At"nVITIE:S
name of Franklin D. Roosevelt, number so and so, who was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, would it not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I suppose so.
The Chairman. Can you tell us, Mr. Dolseu, without disclosing
the name of the man at this time, whether he is a well-known Com-
munist, or whether he is just an ordinary member^
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not care to answer the question ; I would pre-
fer not to answer the question, please.
Mr. Lynch. This book was issued bv vou on behalf of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And then he later returned it to you to place his
dues stamp in there?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And you said before that you do know the name of
the man but won't disclose it?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. There are a couple of other things I want to ask you
about, Mr. Dolsen. You wrote a letter, did you not, to Senator Guf-
fey, of Pennsylvania?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Of which this is a copy [indicating] ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is correct.
Mr. Lynch. And you also wrote a letter to Mrs. Roosevelt, of
which this is a copy?
Mr. Dolsen. That is riglit.
Mr. Lynch. And the article which is pasted to the copy is of the
date appearing thereon, January 22?
Mr. Dolsen. This was taken from the Pittsburgh Press dated
January 22.
Mr. Lynch. The Pittsburgh Press, January 22?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right, this year.
(The letter, dated January 22, 1940, addressed to Mrs. Eleanor
Roosevelt, White House, D. C, was marked "Dolsen P. M. 1," and is
as follows:)
Deiab Mrs. Roosevelt: I am writing to express my surprise at your appeal in
today's Pittsburgli Press under your column "My Day" for tlie Hoover Finnisli
Relief Fund. You have long liad an outstanding repxitation as a liberal and par-
tisan of the common people. How then can you ask for contributions to a gov-
ernment, the real power behind which, in Finland, is not the Finnish workers
and peasants but the ex-Czarist General and big landowner Mannerheim? In
the State Dept. are despatches from our own govei'nment representatives abroad,
who, after the World-War — if I am correctly informed — I'eported that he had
shot down thousands of Finns without trials and had confined thousands of
others in concentration camps where they were tortured as badly as Hitler's
prisoners have been in Germany.
Moreover, why should we suddenly lose our heads about a couple million
I'inns over in Europe and forget ab(mt the thousands of our own unemployed
who are starving or near starvation all the time? AVhy is it that Hoover says
nothing about our own Americans who are suffering as badly — though perhaps
not so dramatically — as those Finns are alleged to be?
Furthermore, how can you, ]\lrs. Roosevelt, urge attending those "benefit"
performances for the Finnish Relief? Do you not know that actors and
actresses who are not convinced that the Hoover Relief is a genuine move^
ment t() aid the suffering but are suspicious of Hoover's objectives are object-
ing to having to take part?
I presume you may find these criticisms unpleasant but I think you should
nevertheless realize that they express a growing apprehension among many
UN-AMEUK\\N I'KOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7401
people thill this whole I'Mimish 'relief has unich luuie hack of it than ap-
pears oil the stirface.
Respectfully yours,
(The letter dated February 5, 19-1:0, addressed to United States
Senator Joseph Gulfey, Washinofton, I). C was marked, ^'Dolsen
P. M. '2," and is as follows:)
Dkar I^ih: As one of youi- eoustitueiits I urge that you vote against any
aid to the Helsinki Fiiniish governiueiit, either open or disguised. Aid to that
govenunent under existing circnnisiancc^s would, in my opinion, he a violation
of our neutrality and a step which would tend to draw us closer to involve-
ment in the wars in Europe.
I urge that you do all in your power to prevent such involvement, regardle-^s
of your position on the (piestion of a third term for Presidcnr Roosevelt.
Whatever reasons the President may have for his sudden action in proposing
huge loans ahroad while his own hudget proposals seriously slash luiemploy-
meut and farm relief although the situation is still very serious, they are
not sufficient, in my .iudgment. for you as a US Senator to give your support.
Many people with whom I have spoken in this ward (Third Ward) are
of tlie same opinion as this. I have yet to run across one who does not feel
that if additional funds are to he voted, they shotdd be spent to alleviate
such terrible starvation conditions as existed in Cleveland, Ohio. Right in
Pennsylvania, we, too. are not so far from a relief crisis.
Respectfully yours,
Mr. Lynch. And the reference in your letter of which this is a
cop3^ is to the article which is attached to it ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right, to this marked portion of the article,
along in here [indicating].
Mr. Lynch. Your letter to Mrs. Roosevelt is objecting to her
sponsoring the Finnish relief, is it not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Just a second; I think it is; that is right, that is
correct.
Mr. Lynch. And your objection primarily to her sponsoring
Finnish relief was because it was a war of aggression on behalf
of Finland?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think the reasons are stated right in there.
Mr. Lynch. Is that also a reason, that it was a war of aggression
insofar as Finland was concerned?
Mr. DoLSEN. I think the letter speaks for itself.
Mr. Lynch. Will you answer the question also, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, I prefer to have the letter answer, because that
was my opinion. That was the one I sent her, that you have now.
Do you intend to read those?
Mr. Lynch. Do you want them read?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. We will put them in the record.
Mr. Dolsen. I see.
Mr. Lynch. The general purport of your letter to Senator Guffey
was askiuff him not to vote for anv aid to Finland?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Chairman, I woukl like to ask is it customary to read these
aloud or not at these hearings like this when they are introduced
as evidence.
The Chairman. You mean this letter here?
Mr. Dolsen. Any material like that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lynch. Do you want it read?
7402 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. I would like to have it read, both of them, since they
were introduced here, you see.
The Chairman. This is merely what you have previously told U9
about your position of not aiding Finland and your views generally
on the Finnish-Kussian conflict.
Mr. DoLSEN. This is a little bit more in detail.
The Chairman. I do not see any particular reason to go into it
any further
Mr. Thomas (interposing). May I ask also what his pur'pose is in
calling attention to these letters ?
Mr. Lynch. To show that this party was objecting to aid to Fin-
land where he was endeavoring to aid four or five other countries
w^hich w^ere invaded. Mr. Dolsen, you were in favor of aid to the
Spanish Loyalists?
Mr. DoLSEN. Absolutely.
Mr. Lynch. And in the aid to the Czechs ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And the Ethiopians?
Mr. DoLSEN. Absolutely.
Mr. Lynch. And the Austrians?
Mr. DoLSEN. Absolutely.
Mr. Lynch. And are there any others that I have not mentioned?
Mr. DoLSEN. The Chinese.
Mr. Lynch. The Chinese?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. But not to the Finns ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; not to the Mannerheim Finnish Government.
Mr. Lynch. And that was the theory, that it was an imperialistic
government, and the effect of it was that they were invading Russia,
that they were the aggressor?
Mr. DoLSEN. Tliat they were in the sense which I explained this
morning; I explained the whole situation.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dolsen, did you contact the persons who are men-
tioned in exhibit No. 3 before you sent your application in to the
W. P. A.? For instance, Mr. Lipman, Mr. Andrews, Mr. Macwell,
and Mr. Bentall ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Did you contact them?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is ri^ht.
Mr. Lynch. And told them 3^ou were using their names?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Did they give you permission to use their names?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. They did?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Of course, vou did not work for them during those
periods all the time indicated there?
Mr. Dolsen. I mentioned where I did work for them, that is, from
1936 to 1937.
Mr. Lynch. You were workino; on W. P. A.?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. T'YNCH. That is correct, is it not?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is riffht.
UN-AINIEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7403
Mr. Lynch. Let us take the next one, Lipman Jewelry Co., as a
salesman?
Mr. DoLSEN. These are the same ones that I objected to this morn-
jSIr. Lynch (interposina). Wait a minute. You said you admitted
3'ou worked with the AV. P. A.
jNfr. DoLSEN. That is rioht.
Mr. Lynch. Now, let us take 1933 to November 1934, the Lipman
Jewelry Co.
Mr. DoLSEN. These I decline to answer
IMr. Lynch. Were you working- at the Lipman Jewelry Co. from
1933 to
Mr. Thomas. I cannot hear you.
Mr. DoLSEN. I decline to answer those very questions he is asking,
all on the ground that it is utterly immaterial and irrelevant to the
hearing and to this committee's investigation, and on the basis of
my constitutional rights.
Mr. Lynch. I ask that the Chair direct him to answer the question.
The Chair^sian. Mr. Dolsen, what is the objection you have to
answering? Is it your fear that you will incriminate yourself, or is
it because of the fact that you gave the names stated in your applica-
tion, and that you were working in the United States, when, as a mat-
ter of fact, you were in a foreign countr}^ ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No. Mr. Dies
The Chairman (interposing). I want to be perfectly fair with you.
I have no disposition to cause any man to incriminate himself or to
give any information that will form a basis for his prosecution, but
what I am interested in knowing is, is that the ground of your objec-
tion?
Mr. DoLSEN. Ml'. Dies, as I miderstancl it, I was brought before
this committee to testify in regard to communistic activities, and
this has nothing to do with communistic activities in any way, shape,
or form, and. therefore, I object to it. It would be just the same as if
I wrote the letters to some friend of mine and all of those letters were
brought into this kind of a hearing. I am willing to tescify to
comnuuiistic activities but, as far as this is unrelated to that, I do
not think you have a right to ask me to answer.
Mr. Lynch. The evidence is, Mr. Chairman, he was working w'ith
the W. P. A. as a teacher, and this is his application
Mr. Dolsen (interposing). My answer to this argument is that if
because I was working with the W. P. A. as a teacher, I do not have
to be a member of the Communist Party, and I do not think all of
these matters are entitled to be brought in.
The Chairman. Of course, the witness has answered, as I recall,,
the question in this way, that he has freely admitted he was not in
the I'nited States at the time.
Mr. Dolsen. That is correct.
The Chair:man. Tliat lie was abroad at the time and that neces-
sarily means that the statement in the application is false, and would
not and could not be correct. He has already admitted lie was
abroad and he was not in the United States at that time, and it
therefore follows that his statement in his application that he had
worked for these various parties during that time is a false statement.
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
7404 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. I do not know anytliin*i that could be added to
that because it is very clear, is it not, Mr. Dolsen ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is ri^ht.
Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Chairman, I think that the question of the attor-
ney is certainly a competent question because here is a man engaged in
spreading communistic doctrines, and who, I assume, obtained a posi-
tion as a teacher for that purpose. That is what he has been tioing
over all of these years, ancl it does have to do with subversive activi-
ties.
Mr. DoLSEN. If I would be entitled to reply to a member of your
committee
The Chairman. He is just making a statement
Mr. DoLSEN. I understand that, but there was a certain implica-
tion in his statement that I was hired on the project to spi-ead coiri-
munistic doctrine, which, of course, is not correct.
Mr. Dempsey. I did not say you were hired for that purpose. I
said I thought that was your object in getting employment. I did
not accuse the people who hired you of knowing what you had in
mind, but I do think you obtained the particular W. P. A. job for the
purpose for which you no doubt used it, and that was to teach com-
munistic doctrines to the workers.
Mr. Dolsen. I object to that, because there is nothing here to show
that I did anything of the kind, that I taught any kind of conunu-
nism. M}' object was to get a job to keep alive when the W. P. A.
employed me.
The Chairman. Your lectures speak for themselves. We have the
lectures here that you made. I really think the counsel's ([uestion has
been answered, because he has freely said that he was abroad at that
time, that the application was based on a false statement. There is
no question about that, is there, Mr. Dolsen? You are not making
any point on it?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman. You have admitted your fraud and therefore your
statement could not be correct, ancl I think that establishes it j^retty
thoroughly.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dolsen, what is your legal residence, Pittsburgh?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. How long have you held Pittsburgh as your legal
residence ?
Mr. Dolsen. About, between, 4 and 5 years.
Mr. Lynch. What was your legal residence before that time ?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, I was in the State of Pennsylvania — I was
in the State for a little while after I came back from the Soviet
Union — I was in New Yoi'k City about 3 or 4 months.
Mr. Lynch. What was your legal residence before you went
abroad ?
Mr. Dolsen. I think I was in New York City before I went abroad,
that is, 3 or 4 months there.
Mr. Lynch. Did vou ever use Evanston, 111., as your leaal resi-
dence ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; for some time.
Mr. Lynch. What reason did you give for traveling abroad on
your passport, do you recall ?
Mr. Dolsen. I don't recall : no.
UN-AMEIU('AX I'KOPAdANDA ACTIVITIES 7405
Mr. Lyncif. DoiTt you reiiuMuber wIumi you went to China, and
wluMi you went to Soviet Russia, and when you went to Czechoslo-
vakia tlie object or purpose of your travel, or what you gavel
Mr. l)oi,SKX. I do not renieniber. It is on the passport
Mr. Lynch. Aftei- you left Russia you then went to Czechoslovakia,
as 1 understand from the answers you gave this morning, is that
correct ?
Mr. DoLSEX. No. T stated in reply to ^Ir. Dies' question as to
whether I had been out of the Soviet Union during that period that
I had beiMi. Then he asked me what countries, and as I recall it I
stated (irermany. P'rani-e. Czechoslovakia, and Austria,
Mr. Lynch. Did you not go from Russia to Czechoslovakia and
stay in Czechoslovakia for awhile^
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Lynch. No?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Lynch. At what places did you get your passports renewed?
Mr. Dolsen. I tliink I got my passport renewed in Prague.
Mr. Lynch. Anywhere else?
Mr. Dolsen. T think that was the only time it was renewed.
]Mr. Lynch. After you left there did you then return to Russia?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And theti returned to the United States.
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Can you recall approximately when you left Europe,
just before you returned to the United States?
Mr. Dolsen. I believe that was about — I think it was in the month
of Api'il : it was in the spring.
Mr. Lynch. In what vear ?
Ml-. Dolsen. I think either 1935 or 193G.
Mr. Lynch. Do you recall that when yon secured your passport
and the renewals of it that you told them you were just traveling
more or less as a tourist ?
Mr. D(;lsen. I do not recall particularly, but I was traveling, as
a matter of fact.
Mr. Lynch. Of course you were traveling, and had to travel; but
your real object was to teach, was it not?
Mr. Dolsen. I was a teacher. That was what I put on the pass-
poit or the ap|)lication.
Mr. Lynch. xV teacher?
Mr. Dolsen. I think so.
Mr. Lynch. Did you say the purpose of your travel was to teach?
Ml-. DoLSLN. I do not recall particularly whether I said that or
not.
Mr. Lynch. Also, for the |)urpo.se of the record, Mr. Dolsen, what
is the name of the secretary in l^ittsburgh; is he a man by the name
of I)en Careathers i
Mr. Dolsen. That is right ; C-a-r-e-a-t-h-e-r-s.
Mr. Lynch. His office is at 305 Seventh Avenue, Pittsburgh?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. He would have any records of any persons who are
members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know whetlier he would or not.
Mr. Lynch. "Well, he is tlie one who sltould have them?
7406 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I suppose so.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever instruct the International Workers
Order to make the Communist Party the beneficiary of your policy
of insurance?
Mr. DoLSEN. Did I ever ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. DoLSEN. That is what I objected to answerino-; your questions
on the whole policy.
Mr. Lynch. You objected to that, too?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is rio;ht; I objected to that, too.
Mr. Lynch. Is that not a ])art of a scheme, Mr. Dolsen, to be very
frank and truthful with us, isn't that part of a scheme to raise funds
for the party by makinp; it the beneficiary under those insurance
policies? Can you answer that?
Mr. DoLSEN. The only thing I can say is that the ordinary person
does not count it a benefit to die in order for somebody else to get
their money.
Mr. Lynch. No; but if they do the other person does get the
benefit of the money ; isn't that right ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I refuse to answer
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Lynch, right along that same line, is it not also
the custom of various members of the Communist Party who have
taken out that same kind of insurance to name the Communist Party
as his beneficiary?
Mr. Dolsen. That same question was asked this morning, and I
stated tliat I was in no ])osition to say, but I do not think so.
Mr. Thomas. You do know of other Comnumists who have done
the same thing ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No, I do not ; I do not know.
Mr. Thomas. Weren't you instructed to do that ?
Mr. Dolsen. I was not.
Mr. Thomas. You mean to say you did it yourself without any-
body giving you the idea?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. How did you happen to get that idea; why did you
do that?
Mr. DoLSEN. I should object to all of these answers; they all per-
tain to this certain document
Mr. Thomas. That has to do with communism and your activities
in the Communist Party; we would like an answer to the question.
Mr. DoLSEN. I would like to say this
Mr. Thomas (interposing). No, we would like to get an answer to
the question.
Mr. Dolsen. No, I can give you an answer ; wait.
Mr. Thomas. All right.
Mr. Dolsen. My answer is when a man thinks he is going to die,
because he is going to die some day, he generally has the opportunity
or right to give anything that is left to whomever he wishes; I think
that is a common thing.
Mr. Thomas. I am trying to find out in my own mind how you
happened to make the Communist Party your beneficiary. I under-
stand the policy was first made out to Earl Browder, your cousin,
and then you changed that later on to the Communist Party, is that
correct ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7407
Mr. DoLSKN. The i^oliev was nuido-
Mr. Thomas (iuterposiiiij). Isn't that correct?
Mr. DoLSEN. The policy was made out to Earl Browder and then I
wrote him a letter and said I wanted the proceeds turned over to
the Conununist Party of which he was <ieneral secretary, you see.
In other words, I did not waiu hiui personally to get the funds from
it. I wanted the ])arty to get them. Now, you asked me why I did
that. The reason I did that was, in the first place, I am not married
and have nobody to leave anythino- like that to, and in the second
place, the Comnumist Party is more in the world to me than any-
thino; else is.
Mr. Thomas. Did you talk this over with Earl Browder, the secre-
tary of the Comnumist Party before you did that!'
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I did not.
Mr. TnoiNrAS. You do not know whether any other Communists
did the same tiling^
Mr. DoLSEX. I do not know whether they did or not.
IMr. Thomas. But you rather believe they have ?
]Mr. DoLSEX. No, I do not think they have.
Mr. Tho:mas. Is it not almost connnon knowledge within the party
that it is being done now all the time ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I never heard of it.
^Ir. Lyxch. ]Mr. Dolsen. there is a regular concerted move or pol-
icy of the Conununist Party to object to any aid to Finland and to
attempt great sympathy for Russia in their war with Finland; that
is correct, is it not.
Mr. DoLSEX. Well, the war is all over.
Mr. Lyxch. I mean in the war that just terminated.
Mr. DoLSEX. You mean previously?
Mr. Lyxch. Yes.
Mr. DoLSEx. Well, the Communist Party considers that the Russo-
Finnish AVar from a Soviet standpoint was justified, and, naturally,
when we thought it was justified we wanted people to be friendly with
the Soviet LTnion.
^Ir. Lyxch. And to agree with them ?
Mr. DoLSEX. We were bitterly opposed to the Finnish Relief first,
because Herbert Hoover heads it. We have no use for Herbert
Hoover, absolutely none whatever, and we know that most of the
Avorking people in this country hate him more than anybody else in
America. That is the first thing. The second thing is that this
money was going to Mannerheim, who is a notorious butcher of the
Finnish working class, and present Ambassador Bullitt sent a state-
ment, a cable to President Wilson and admitted the murder in cold
blood of about 20,01)0 Finnish workers. We were certainly very
bitterly opposed and we are still to Finnish Relief.
Mr. Thomas. On whom did Ambassador Bullitt blame that?
Mr. DoLSEX. He reported this as a fact, that according to the
official statistics the Mannerheim Government, which was then in
control of Finland, I think it was 20,000 workers had been slain
without trial. These were the official statistics of the Mannerheim
Government.
Mr. Thomas. Was it not also true that Communists started an
uprising there in Finland at that time and they were shot down to
the extent of some 15,000 or 20,000 people?
94931 — 40— vol. 12 14
7408 UN-AMEKIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEx. No; that is not true.
Mr. Thomas. You know the Conimunist Party started tluit parti-
ular uprising, do you not?
Mr. DoLSEN. No, they did not. At that time there was a Social-
Democratic Party in control in Finland. It had been elected by the
majority of the vote of the people. The Social-Democrats of Finland
were in favor of very close alliance and understanding with the
Soviet Union. Mannerheim had brought in German armies
The Chairman (interposing). With all due respect. I think we
have had enough on that particular subject.
Mr. Lynch. To whom do you report as your chief, Mr. Dolsen, in
the Pittsburgh area?
Mr. DoLSEN. George Powers is the secretary of that area, that is,
western Pennsylvania.
Mr. Lynch. He is the one you report to as your chief?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Does he have the same address, 305 Seventh Avenue?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Is there a State chief that you report, or do your re-
ports and Powers' go to a State chief?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; there is a State organizaticm at the present time,
but I do not know how the State operates and functions.
Mr. Lynch. Where is the headquarters?
Mr. DoLSEN. In Philadeli)hia, I think.
The Chairman. Mr. Barker has some questions.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen. do you know Richard AV. Laury?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do ; yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. He is a former bui'gess of Homestead ?
Mr. Dolsen. West Homestead.
Mr. Barker. West Homestead?
Mr. DolseN. Yes.
Mr. Barker. He is president of the International Workers' Order
in the Pittsburgh district, is he not?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Barker. He is a Communist too. is he not ?
Mr. DoLSEN. He certainly is not.
INIr. Barker. He is not a Communist ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen, there was associated with you while you
were in this W. P. A. workers' education project a man by the name
of William Burnstein?
Mr. DoiSEK. There was a teacher there by that name.
Mr. Barker. A teacher by the name of William Burnstein?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Is he a Communist, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know whether he is a Communist. I know
tluu he sym])athizes with them.
Mr. Barker. He does?
^Ir. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Barker. He has attended Communist Party meetings at which
you were present ?
Mr. Dolsen. I think he has.
Mr. Barker. Would he be ordinarily admitted to the Communist
meetings if he were not a member?
IN-AMEKirAX PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7409
Mr. Ddi.sen. (Teneially not.
Mr. Bakker. C\ V. AVicker, who is director of educational projects
in Allt'iiluMiy County for the AV. P. A., is he a Conniuniist?
Ml'. D'lLsKx. He was one, but he dropi)ed out.
Mr. Bahkkr. He was a Connniniist but he dropped out?
Mr. DoLSGN. I til ink so; yes.
The CiiAiKMAX. AVheji did lie drop out?
Afr. Barker. Yes; when did lie drop out?
Ml". DoLsEN. I tliink about a year and a half ago.
Mr. Barker. About a vear and a half ago?
Mr. DoLSEN, I think so.
Tlie CiiAiRMAX. S|)eak louder.
Mr. DoLsEX. About a vear and a half afro.
Mr, Barker. In addition to yourself, and you admitted 3'^ou were a
'Connnunist.
Mr. l^oi.sRX. T am, absolutely.
Mr. Barker. There was Mr. Burnstein, who was a teacher, and Mr.
Wicker, who was director of the project.
^fr. Dolsex. At one time he was.
Mr. Barker. And in Pittsburjrh, Pa., as director of the whole project
"Mas Cisry Wliite.
Mr. DoLSEx. I know Cary White was director
Mr. Thomas. S])eak louder.
Mr. Doi.sKX. I know Carv Wliite was director for the whole
State
Mr. Dempsey. What became of Mr. Lawry?
Mr. DoL'^EX. AVhat became of Mr. Lawry?
]Mr. IJempney. Yes.
Mr. Dolsex. He was appointed at the solicitation of the Democratic
oroanizatioii in Pittsburjih to be census director of the city of
Pittsburirh.
Mr. DexMPsfy. He is in char*re of the district as census director?
^fr. DoLSKN. Yes.
Mr. DuxN (C(Mijri"essman from Pennsylvania). May I ask a ques-
tion, Mr. Chairman?
The CiiAiRMAX. We cannot permit interruptions at this time.
Mr. Duxx. It is on that subject, Mr. Chairman.
Tlie CiiAiRMAX. Proceed, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry is still in Pittsburgh, then?
Mr. Dolsex. Yes; he is.
Mr. I^AKKER. He is still president of the International Workers
Order?
Mr. DoL<EX. He is, but, of course, Mr. Lawry is not a Communist.
Mr. Barker. You say he is not?
Mr. Dolsex. I know he has lots of differences with us.
]\fr. Barker. (join<r back to Cary White, he was a Communist, was
lie not. Mr. Dolsen ?
Mr. Dolsex. I do not believe that he was. That question or some-
thiiijr similar was asked me several times; I do not know Cary White
personally. I tliink I met him several times.
Mr. Barker. Did you know he was candidate for Governor of Vir-
liinia on tlie Communist ticket?
Mr. Dolsex. No; but I did hear he was a candidate on the Socialist
Party ticket some years ago. I just heard this rumor; I cannot say
7410 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
anything about it one way or the other. I can say this, that I am quitte
certain tluit Gary White was not a Communist.
Mr. Barker. Was not?
Mr. Doi.sEN. Yes; but you know I cannot state it from absohite
knoAvledge, but my own impression.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen, did you attend Communist Party meetings
reguhirly in Pittsburgh?
Mr. DoLSEN. I certainly do.
Mr. Barker. You do?
]Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Barker. How many units of the Communist Party are there in
AllegJieny County, do you know ?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, I do not know. I think that there are about
40 or 50.
* Mr. B ARKER. Do you know Nate Alberts ?
Mr. Dolsen. I do ; yes.
Mr. Barkee. Do you know Dolly Gainer?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes, sir.
Ivlr. Barker. Both of those people are Communists?
Mr, Dolsen. Well, I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Well, now
Mr. Dolsen (interposing). So far as I know they are members of
the Communist Party; whether they have any membership book I will
say I do not know.
The Chairman. Well, have you ever been with them in branch
meetings of the party?
Mr. Dolsen. Well. I have; yes.
The Chairman. What do you say?
Mr. Dolsen. I have ; yes.
The Chairman. All right. They would not be in any branch meet-
ing if they were not members of the l^arty, would they?
Mr. Dolsen. They might be and they might not.
Tlie Chairman. As a general proposition they would not be?
Mr. Dolsen. As a general proposition they would not be. Still I
would like to ask the committee what is the purpose of asking these
particular types of questions, if you are going to run through 400 or
500 names
The Chairman (interposing). If you supply us with a correct mem-
ber:-'hip list, you will save us the necessity of going through it. Our
difficulty has been that we have never been able to secure from your
party or any branch of it any membership list of its members, because
the jnembership list has either disappeared or placed beyond the reach
of anyone.
Mr. Dolsen. Mr. Dies, I would like to state, in reply to your ques-
tion, that no working-class organization I know of will supply your
committee with a list of their members, and they have to guard the
record with the safety measures to do so.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen, is George Edward Powers, of Pittsburgh,.
a Communist?
Mr. Dolsen. Is he ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Ml'. Dolsen. Is that the same as George Powers?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7411
Mr. DoLSEN. If he is George Powers, he is the district secretary of
the party in the western Pennsylvania district.
Mr. Bakkfr. "What position does Martin Young hold in the Com-
munist Party of Allegheny County?
Mr. DoLSEX. Martin Young, I believe, was secretary.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen, I believe you said that you were former
secretary of the Conmunnst Party in Allegheny County?
■ ]\Ir. DoLSEX. That is correct.
Mr. Barker. And also former secretary of the Workers Alliance?
JNIr. DoLSEx. I was secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Barker. You were secretary-treasurer?
jVIr. DoLSEX. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Until about 6 months ago?
jNIr. DoLSEX. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Sonia Strauss?
Mr. DoLSEX. Mr. Chairman, this is all in a whole long list of names
of individuals.
The Chairmax. Now, the Chair is going to rule you have to answer
these questions. That is very material if you know whether a given
person's name is the name of a member of the party. If you do not
know, you can so state, but that is certainly material to our inquiry,
and it is a perfectly fair question,
Mr. DoLSEx. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer such questions.
That is all. I do not think this committee has any authority to
The Chairmax (interposing). It is not a question of what you
think about it. We have been very indulgent with you, and this cer-
tainly gets down to a material question involved. You have qualified
yourself as being in a position to know. You have been in the party.
You are a charter member of the party, and you have been in the
Pittsburgh area for a long time. You have sat in party meetings
with many people. Now, all Mr. Barker is asking you is if you
know whether a certain person is a member of the party, and you can
certainly answer that question.
Mr. DoLSEX. I am replying to you, Mr. Dies, that the Communist
Partv in America is not vet an outlaw organization.
The Chairmax. That is not a thing to do
Mr. DoLSEX (interposing). And, consequently, a committee investi-
gating subversive activities has no right to inquire into that.
The Chairmax. AVe are not asking you what we ought to do or
ought not to do.
Sir. DoLSEX^. I decline to answer those questions.
Mr. Thomas. This committee has been very indulgent with this
witness all day long. He has continued to refuse to answer many
important questions of the committee. I think that our patience has
gone far enough, and I think he ought to be cited for contempt, and
I am going to now move that he be cited.
The Chairmax. Wait until we get the record clear. What is your
question of the witness?
]Mr. Barker. My question was. Do you know Sonia Strauss?
The Chairmax. The committee is sitting as a subcommittee com-
posed of Mr. Dempsey, the chairman, and Mr. Thomas, Ask your
question.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen. do vou know Sonia Strauss?
7412 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. I know Sonia Strauss.
Mr. Barker. Is she a Communist?
Mr. DoLSEN. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. Ask the next question.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Joseph Chandler ?
The Chairman. The Chair is requiring you to answer these ques-
tions.
Mr. DoLSEN. I understand.
The Chairman. And you decline to answer them?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairman. Would you answer this question : Did you ever sit
in a Communist meeting with Sonia Strauss^
Mr. DoLSEN. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer the question and.
you decline?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed with some more of the questions.
Mr. DoLSEN. Of course, Mr. Chairman, my reasons are my standing
on the constitutional grounds that this committee has no right to
require this information of me.
Mr. Lynch. Of course, the Constitution gives no such right, Mr„
Chairman.
The Chairman. Proceed with your next question.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Joseph Chandler?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do know him.
Mr. Barker. You do know him?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
Mr. Barker. He is a former C. I. O. organizer at New Kensington.,
Pa.?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know whether he was a C. I. O. organizer
or not.
Mr. Barker. Is he a Communist?
IVIr. Dolsen. I have not seen him for a long time, and I do not
know where he is.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Alec Steinberg?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do.
Mr. Barker. He is chairman of one of the units of the Communist-
Party in Allegheny County, is he not?
Mr. DoLSEN. Not that I know of.
Mr. Barker. Is he a Communist?
Mr. DoLSEN. I decline to state.
Mr. Barker. You decline to answer?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer the question^,
and you decline to answer it?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairinian. All right, proceed with the others.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Abe Strauss?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do.
Mr. Barker. Is he a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. DoLSEN. He is.
Mr. Barker. You know Carl Hacker ; I know you know -Carl
Hacker.
JSIr. DoLSEN. I certainly do.
UX-A.MEKICAX IMiorAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7413
Mr. Bakkkk. He is a Coniiminist, is he not?
Mr. l)oi.sEN. He was a Coinniimist, but is on pretty bad terms with
the party now.
Mr. Hakkkk. He was former ])resident of the Hotel and Restaurant
Men's A.ssociation in Pittsbur^di?
Mr. Doi.sKN. In Pittsburoli. that is rio:ht.
Mr. Bakkkr. Did you know Fred Abbott, alias Berkowitz?
Mr. DoLSKN. I did know" him.
Mr. Bakkek. He was director of tlie Communist Workers' School
in l*ittsl)nroli.
Mr. DoLsKN. That is right, he was.
Mr. Barker. You were a teacher at that school at one time, weren't
you, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. DoESEX. Xo, sir.
Mr. Barker. You were not on the staff?
Mr. DoLSEN. Xo.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, here is a letter. It has on it "'Pitts-
burgh Workers" School, Pittsburgh, Pa.,"' dated Xovember 29, 19)38.
Dear Faculty member:
You are coifliall.v invited to atteiul n faculty dinner on Friday uite at 5:30
p. m. in tlie libra r.v.
A l)rief diseuj;siou on tlie January tei'iu, led by Jobu Steuben, will follow
the dinner.
Fraternally,
Fred Abbott Bekkowitz.
Copy of the above letter addressed to George Anderson, lOOO X. Highland
Ave.. Pgh.. Pa. ; Lloyd Brown, 8047 Centre Ave., Pittsburgh, Pa. : J. Dolsen, 206
Stanwyx St., Pittsburgh. Pa.
Did you get that letter, Mr. Dolsen ?
Mr. DoLSEX. This is Xovember 29, 1938. I can't say whether I did
oi- not, because I don't recall it, but I know I was invited to one of
tlieii- meetings. I was not a member of the faculty.
Mr. Barker. You were not a member of their faculty?
Mr. DoLSEX. Xo, sir; I was not a member of their facidty.
Mr. Barker. Your former address was 206 Stanwyx Street?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. Thomas. What does it say there about John Steuben ?
Ml-. Barker. ''A brief discussion on the January term, led by John
Steuben, will follow the dinner."
Mr. Thomas. Do you know John Steuben ?
Mr. Dolsen. I do know him.
Mr. Thomas. You do know him?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Was John Steuben a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dolsen. He was.
Mr. Thomas. He was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Did vou know John Steuben also testified before the
La Follette Committee?
Mr. Dolsen. Pardon me ?
Mr. Thomas, Did you know that John Steuben was one of the star
witnesses before the La Follette Committee ?
Mr, Dolsen. I did not know that.
Mr. Thomas. You do not know whether he testified before the
La Follette committee ?
7414 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, DoLSEN. No ; I did not.
Mr. Thomas. But you do know that he was a Communist ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
Mr. Baeker. Mr. Dolsen, do you know Fred Haug, national or-
ganizer for the United Electrical, Kadio, and Machine Workers of
America ?
Mr. Dolsex. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. Barker. I believe you testified that Mr. C. V. Wicker was in
charge of adult-education projects in Allegheny County for W. P. A.
was a Communist at one time ?
Mr. DoLSEN. At one time he was ; yes.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, here is a letter from Mr. Fred Hang,
national organizer for this union, addressed to Mr. Wicker, in which
he gives the names of five persons who would like to receive the course
in Summer Institute for Trade Unionists in Pittsburgh. That was
a W. P. A. project, do you recall, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. Dolsen. The school for trade unionists?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know whether there was any particular school
for trade unionists or not, because they had different W. P. A. schools.
I do not know that any was called a school. It was a college class,
maybe. What year was that ?
Mr. Barker. '1938.
Mr. Dolsen. I do not recall that.
Mr. Barker. At that time you were a teacher ?
Mr. Dolsen. Right : that is right ; I was a teacher then.
Mr. Barker. And Burnstein was a teacher?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Barker. And Wicker was in charge of the project?
Mr. Dolsen. At that time ; yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen, did you know Sylvia Schlessinger ?
The Chairman. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Barker. S-c-h-1-e-s-s-i-n-g-e-r.
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; I knew her.
Mr. Barker. Is she a Communist?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know. I know she is a lawyer there in
Pittsburgh.
The Chairman. Did you ever sit with her in a branch meeting?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Tlie Chairman. What?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman, Did you ever sit with her in a Communist
meeting ?
Mr. Dolsen, Only a public meeting.
The Chairman, A public meeting held by the Communist Party?
Mr, Dolsen, Under Communist auspices, but anybody could go
there, you see.
The Chairman, I see,
Mr. Barker, Mr, Dolsen, do you know Mv. Charles T, Bates,
reo-ional director of tlie National Labor Relations Board of
Pittsburgh ?
Mr, Dolsen, I did not know him personally, just by hearing him,
I heard him talk.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7415
t
Mr. Bahkkk. You heard him talk?
Mr. I)oi.s?:n. Yps: but I diW uot know him personally.
Mr. Barkku. Where (
Mr. DoLSEN. I think he talked to oui- teachers' project at one time
on the Avork of the National Labor Relations Board.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever attend any other meetinos with him?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I did not.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever sit in any other meeting- with him of
any kind ?
Mr. DoLSEX. No ; I did not.
Mr. Barker. iMr. Dolsen, did you have any contact with Miss
Eleanor ^lorrison, State director of the W. P. A. Workers
Education ?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; she used to come down and visit our project once
in awhile.
^Ir. Barker. Allegheny County?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right. She had that under her supervision.
She had to come to see how everything was going.
Mr. Barker. Is she a Communist?
Mr. Dolsex. She is not.
Mr. Barker. She is definitely not a Communist ?
Mr. Dolsex. Absolutely not.
Mr. Barker. And is not a sympathizer with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dolsex. I do not think so ; not very much.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever hear her say in Pittsburgh that the
Communists need not have any fear that they would be fired from
any projects she was working on?
Mr. DoLSEX'. I heard her say that no Communist or anybody for
any political participation would ever be fired as long as they did
their job right, they would not be fired from their job, because those
were the regulations of the W. P. A., and they were to be lived up to.
]\lr. Barker. Do j'ou know ]Mrs. Helen Smith, in charge of workers'
education on W. P. A. ?
]Mr. Dolsex. I heard her lecture and speak in Pittsburgh several
times.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolsen, did you attend a meeting held for the
benefit of returned veterans of the Abraham Lincoln brigade at the
home of i\Ir. and Mrs. INIike Durco in SAvissvale?
Mr. Dolsex'. I do not know.
Mr. Barker. Did you know that they were raising funds for the
relief of returned members of the Abraham Lincoln brigade?
^Ir. Dolsex. I do not remember that particular affair, but I know
money was being raised for them. It was being raised all over the
country at that time.
JVIr. Barker. Fred Abbott Berkowitz, in Pittsburgh, is a Communist,
is he?
Mr. Dolsex. Yes; he was one.
Mr. Barker. The attorney for the Connnunist Party in Allegheny
County is who ?
Mr. Dolsex. Arthur Rack.
Mr. Barker. Arthur Rack?
Mr. Dolsex. Yes.
Mr. Barker. He is in the Law & Finance Building in Pittsburgh?
741(3 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN.' Tliat is rio;lit.
Mr. Bakker. Mr. C. V. Wicker is still associated with tlie W. P. A.
in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Doi.sEN. No; he has not been for a long- time.
Mr. Barker. You are on the litei-ature committee — chairman of the
literature committee of the Communist Party in Allegheny County
at the ]3 resent time ?
Mr. Dolsen. I am literature agent.
Mr. Barker. You are literature agent of the Communist Party in
Allegheny County — that is, the whole county?
Mr. Dolsen. Western Pennsylvania.
Mr. Barker. That is, the western part of the State of Pennsyl-
vania ?
Mr. DoLSEN. That is correct.
Mr. Barker. How many pieces of literatui-e were distributed in
1938 in western Pennsylvania, do you know, Mr. Dolsen?
Mr. DoLSEN. I do not know. All that I know about is after October
of this year.
Mr. Barker. ]\Ir. Dolsen, here is a re])ort of the literature committee
of the Connnunist I*arty, tenth convention.
Mr. DoLSEN. What is the date of that?
Mr. Barker. May 26, 1938.
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know anything about that.
Mr. liARKER. Did you ever see one of these documents before [indi-
cating] ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; I never did. No ; I never saw one of them. You
see, I was not — I had nothing to do with literature at that time. I
never saw one of those before.
Mr. Barker. This shows for western Pennsylvania that the distri-
bution of literature for western Pennsylvania amounted to 33,866
pieces in 1937.
Mr. DoLSEX. Yes. Well, you see, I can't say anything about it,
because I had nothing to do with that at that time.
Mr. Barker. You never saw one of those reports before ?
Mr. DoLSEN. No ; I never saw one of those reports before.
Mr. Barker. And that the use of pamphlets published in 1936, 1937,
and 1938 amounted to a total of 338,050, here on page 10.
jMr. Dolsen. That was evidently for tlie whole country.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. DoLsoN. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Have you held the position of party organizer for Alle-
gheny County, Pa.?
Mr. DoLSEN. No; I never have.
Mr. Barker. Do you know who the secretaries are of the various
units of the Communist Party in Allegheny County?
Mr. Dolsen. No; I do not.
Mr. Barker. Do you know who the chairmen are of the various units
of the Communist Party in Allegheny County ?
Mr. Dolsen. I know in some individual cases who the chairmen are.
Mr. Barker. Will you state the ones you do know?
Mr. Dolsen. If the connnittee please, I decline to answer that kind
of a question on the same basis as I declined the others.
The Chairman. The committee understands that you decline to state
wlio the cliairmen are, the ones that you know in the various units of
the Comnuuiist Party in Allegheny County.
UN-AMKRICAX rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7417
Mr. DoLsEN. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you also decline to answer the question as to
'who the section oriranizers are?
Mr. DoLsEN. That is right also.
The Chaikmax. Do you know who they are?
Mr. DoLSEN. In some cases I do.
The Chairman. You decline to give the committee the names of any
of them i
Mr. DoLSEN. That is right.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Dolson, did you ever attend any of the lectures and
discussions at the Connnunist A\'orkers School in Pittsburgh'^
Mr. DoLSEN. A few of them.
Mr. Barker. You did?
Mr. Dolsen. a few of them : yes.
Mr. Barker. Did you attend the meeting on March 11, 1939, of the
Communist Wcii'kers School in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know. I can't say. What was discussed there,
have you got it ?
Ml'. Barker. Well, it was a victory celebration under the chairman-
ship of Martin Young, and you have identified ^Ir. Young. It was the
reopening of the school. The school had been closed,
Mr. DoLSEN. I imagine I was there, but I do not recall it, you see.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Matt Snyder?
Ml-. D(n.sEN. I met him several times. I do not know where he is
now. I liave not seen him for a long time.
Mr. Barker. Is he a Communist ?
Mr. DoL«EN. Well, he was at the time I knew him.
Mr. Barker. He was at the time you knew him?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. What about Sarah Filner?
Mr. Dolsen. You mean — what is your question about her?
Mr. Barker. Is she a Communist ?
Mr. Dolsen. I suppose she is. She is the wife of the secretary of the
party in Pittsburgh.
Mr. Barker. Yes, of course ; Herman Filner is secretary ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Mrs. Helen Smith?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes : I know^ her.
Mr. Barker. You know her?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Is she a Communist?
Mr. Dolsen. Xo ; I am quite sure she is not.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Mary Hoffman ?
]Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Is Mary Hoffman a Communist?
Mr. Dolsen. I do not know that.
The Chairman. Did you ever sit in a branch meeting with Mary
Hoffman ?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman. What is your answer?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever sit in any Communist meeting with
her?
7418 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DoLSEN. No; that is what you just asked me and the answer
was "no."
Mr. Barker. Do you know Kev. Udora P. Leeth ?
Mr. DoLSEN. I believe I met him one time. I believe he is a
Methodist minister.
Mr. Barker. He is a Presbyterian.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I got the congregations mixed up.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever sit in any meetings with him?
Mr. Dolsen. No ; I think I met him one time. I am not sure.
Mr. Barker. How many units are thei'e in the Communist Party
in Allegheny County?
Mr. DoLSEN. That question Avas asked. I said between 40 and 50.
Mr. Barker. Would _vou mind again telling us the number^
Mr. Dolsen. No. I said before I thought there was between 40
and 50.
Mr. Barker. Between 40 and 50?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. I might say for the record that John Steuljen who
tills witness testified was a member of the Communist Party or
that he had been a member of the Communist Party has testified
before the La Follette Civil Liberties Committee on three different
dates, August 5, 1938, July 27, 1938, and August 2, 1938. I would
like to just get that in the record at this point.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dolsen, you testified, if I recall correctly, before
the lunch recess that at the time you left for China that you thought
you were going there as a representative of the "Red Aid"?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And your transportation was paid by that organiza-
tion ?
Mr. Dolsen. Well, my transportation from America.
Mr. Lynch. To China?
Mr. Dolsen. And from Moscow, going as Red Aid representative
to China, my wages and expenses were paid by the International Red
Aid in Moscow.
Mr. Lynch. You knew at the time you left here in 1926 that you
were going as a representative of the Red Aid ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. And they paid your expenses ?
Mr. Dolsen. As I say, the American Connnunist Party paid my ex-
penses to Moscow.
Mr. Lynch. You first went to China ?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
Mr. Lynch. You first went to Moscow ?
Mr. Dolsen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. How long did you stay in Moscow before you went to
China?
Mr. Dolsen. Let me make it plain.
Mr. Lynch. That is, when you left in 1926.
Mr. Dolsen. I went from New York City to Moscow.
Mr. Lynch. And then from Moscow to China, Peking?
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. I show you your passport application which was sworn
to by you on the 10th day of March 1926 in Chicago. That is where
you got your passport ?
UN-AMKKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIP^S 7419
Mr. DoLSEN. That is correct.
Mr. Lynch. On that passjwrt application it says: I desire the ])ass-
])()rt foi- nse in visitino; the conntries hereinafter named for the follow-
ini>- purposes.
Mr. Dolmen. That is ri<rht.
Mr. Lynch. And yow wrote in there British Isles and tour around
the Avorld. in your own handwriting.
Mr. DoLSEN. Correct.
Mr. Lynch. And the object of your visit was travel.
Mr. DoLSEN. I did travel.
Mr. Lynch. I know you had to travel to oet anywhere, from one
point to another.
Mr. Dolsen. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Your real object was to teach, too, was it not?
Mr. Dolsen. It was to travel and teach.
Mr. Lynch. And to act as the representative of the Red Aid, is that
n.ot correct ?
Mr. Dolsen. That is rifi^ht.
Mr. Lynch. I think foi- the purpose of the record we ouo;ht to ask
liim specifically to disclose the name of the man that he said had this
membership certificate issued to him, and then if he declines to answer,
I will ask the Chair to direct him to answer, and we will have it very
clearly in the record in this case.
The Chairman. The Chair has considered that very carefully. Here
is the case of a member of the Communist Party nsinff the name o"f the
President of the United States, usino- that name as a party name,
a])parently with the consent of the Conununist Party, or, at least, with-
out any objection, and the Chair thinks that it is material to find out
who did that, because, manifestly, if that practice is permitted it is
very much against public interest. The Chair directs you to answer
that question as to the name of the person who gave the name Franklin
D. Roosevelt for party purposes.
Mr. DoLSEN. Well, I will have to state to the committee that on the
previous grounds I decline to give that information.
The Chairman. You have admitted that you were the one that
printed the name or wrote the name Franklin D. Roosevelt in that
book.
Mr. DoLSEN. I stated that fully to the committee and the members
of the committee and I think to a Secret Service agent here this
noontime.
The Chairman. Louder, Mr, Witness.
Mr. Thomas. Louder !
Mr. Dolsen. I stated that to the members of the committee, and
I stated it to a Secret Service agent — I forget what his name was —
who said he represented the President, these same circumstances
before, and I have nothing to add to that.
The Chairman. You have admitted that you know who the per-
son is.
Mr. Dolsen. Yes; I have admitted that I know who the person is.
The Chairman. What his true name is.
Mr. Dolsen. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, the Avitness has declined to answer that ques-
tion and has also declined to give the names of section organizers,
when he has admitted that he knows who some of them are, and he
7420 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
has refused to answer Avhether certain persons were members of the
Comnnniist Party and whether or not he had ever sat in branch
meetino;s with these persons. This committee has been nnable to get
any membership list of the Commnnist Party, either because the
membersliip lists were destroyed or placed beyond our reach. It
becomes material to know who tliese members are and what their
true names are, and for that reason the Chair has directed the wit-
ness to answer those (|uestions, beino; material to this inquiry.
This information becomes material for a number of reasons. One
is that this connnittee has information that Soviet T^nion spies are
operating in the United States for the purpose of securing military
and industrial secrets, and it manifestly is a matter of great impor-
tance to know who these members are. Therefore, it is the Chair's
ruling that the witness be cited in contempt for his refusal to answer
questions, that the matter be handled by the attorney in the statutory
manner, and that we make an issue of this at this point, because if
witnesses of the Communist Party or Fascist groups or Nazi groups
refuse to divulge the names of their members, then the investigation
is greatly handicapped. For that reason, Mr. Attorney, with the
consent of the subcommittee the Chair so rules.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Cliairman, I move that the committee authorize
that the matter be taken up with the United States district attorney's
office for the District of Columbia for prosecution of this witness
for refusal to answer. If the connnittee passes on that. I will submit
the record to them when it is written up.
Mr. Dempsey. I so move, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Thomas. Before a vote is taken, it is my understanding that
the committee first cites the witness to the Speaker of the House of
Representatives, and if it is not a matter to come before the district
attorney he so rules, and if it is it is referred to him.
The Chairman. Well, a motion has been made that contempt pro-
ceedings be instituted against this witness in the statutory manner
and in accordance with existing law. All those in favor of the motion
say "aye"; opi^osed "no."' The ayes have it. So that is the order of
the committee.
Are there any more questions, Mr. Counsel? If not, we will stand
adjourned. The witness will remain under subi)ena until notified
that he is discharged. The committee stands adjourned subject to
the call of the Chair.
(Thereupon, at 3:45 p. m., the committee adjourned subject to the
call of the Chair.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, MARCH 28, 1940
HousK OF Keprp^sentatives,
Special Com:mittee to Ixmsstigate Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. 0.
(The committee met at 10 a. m., the Honorable Martin Dies (chair
man) ijresiding.)
Present : Kepresentatives Mason, Thomas, and Voorhis.
Present also: Robert Lynch, counsel to the committee; and J. B.
Mattliews, special investigator for the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. There not being
a quorum present of the full committee, the Chair appoints a subcom-
mittee composed of the Chair, Mr. ]Mason, and Mr. Voorhis to proceed
until we can secure the attendance of the full committee.
Mr. Powers, will you please come around, jmju and your attorney?
I find I will have to make a slight change for the purpose of hearing
this witness. The subcommittee to open the hearing will be composed
of the Chair, Mr. Mason, and Mr. Dempsey.
The Chair wants to ask a few preliminary questions of the witness,
and then Mr. Lynch will proceed with the examination.
STATEMENT OF GEORGE POWERS, PITTSBURGH. PA., MEMBER OF
THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES
(The witness was duly sworn.)
The Chairman. Your name is what?
^Ir. Powers. George Powers.
The Chairman. George Powers?
Mr. PoAVERS. Correct.
The Chairman. P-o-w-e-r-s?
^Ir. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Where do you live, Mr. Powers ?
Mr. Powers. At 18:^8 Center Avenue, Pittsburgh.
The Chairman. How long have 3'ou lived in Pittsburgh ?
Mr. Powers. In and around Pittsburgh for the last 7 or 8 years.
The Chairman. Seven or eight years?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. You have made Pittsburgh your headquarters and
residence during that period?
Mr. Powers. Well, yes; Pittsburgh and nearby Pittsburgh. I have
lived in smaller nearby communities.
The Chairman. You considered that your liome during that pe-
riod ?
7421
7422 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. Where were you born?
Mr. Powers. I was born in the Soviet Union.
The Chairman. Where ?
Mr. Powers. Soviet Union, in Russia.
The Chairman. What year were you born there?
Mr. Powers. In 1905.
The Chairman. 1905 ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. When did you emigrate to the United States?
Mr. Powers. In 1923.
The Chairman. Under what name did you come to the United
States?
Mr. Powers. I don't recall.
The Chairman. You don't recall?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. What is your true name ?
Mr. Powers. This is my true name, my legal name.
The Chairman. What was your name before you adopted the name
of Powers?
Mr. Powers. I don't recall. I answered that.
The Chairman. You don't recall ?
Mr. PowFJJS. I was young, and we legally changed our name.
Mr. Thomas. Young? Eighteen years?
The Chairman. What year did you have your name changed?
Mr. Powers. Soon after I got here.
The Chairman. After 1923?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Was it 2 or 3 years after that?
Mr. Powers. No. I don't recall exactly how soon it was ; quite soon
after I came.
The Chairman. Quite soon after you came, but you don't recall just
when ?
Mr. Powers. No.
The Chairman. What was your father's name ?
Mr. Powers. The first name was Samuel.
The Chairman. Sanmel what?
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
The Chairman. You don't know your father's name?
Mr. Powers. I don't. I haven't seen him — the last I saw him was
in 1911, 1 believe, or 1910, 1 don't recollect.
The Chairman. You haven't heard from your father since that
time?
Mr. Powers. Well, I saw him about 12 or 13 years ago.
The Chairman. That was the last time you have seen or heard
from him?
Mr. Powers. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You don't know now, or 3^ou didn't know his last
name at that time, 12 years ago?
Mr. Powers. I did not.
The Chairman. How did you come to the United States, as a per-
manent I'esident?
Mr. Powers. Sir?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7423
The Chajrman. Did you come to this country for permanent resi-
dence ?
^fr. Powers. That is rip;lit.
The Chairman. Did you come by yourself or were you accompanied
bv vour i)arents?
* *
Mr. Powers. My mother.
The CiiAiRMAx. Your mother came with you?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. Any other members of your family besides your
mother?
Mr. Powers. Two brothers.
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. Powers. Two brothers.
The Chairman. Your mother is still in the United States?
Mr. Powers. She is dead.
The Chairman. What year did she die, apj^roximately ?
Mr. Powers. 1932.
The Chairman. In 1932?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know what her name was?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. "What was her name?
Mr. Powers. Her name was Toub.
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Powers. T-o-u-b.
The Chairman. Is that the last name or the first name?
jNIr. Powers. The first name.
The Chairman. What was the last name?
Mr. Powers. The same as mine.
The Chairman. What was her name before it was changed to
Powers ?
Mr. Powers. I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. You don't know?
Mr. Powers. No.
The Chairman. Was her name changed to Powers?
Mr. Powers. I don't know if it was or not ; mine was.
Mr. Dempset. You say her name was the same as yours?
Mr. Powers. That is the name she went by.
Mr. Dempset. But you don't know whether hers was legally
changed ?
Mr. Powers. Whether hers was legally changed, I don't.
Mr. Dempset. In what court did you have yours legally changed?
Mr. Powers. I believe it was in Duluth, Minn.
Mr. Dempset. You believe so ? Don't you know something as im-
portant as that? You don't recall?
]Mr. Powers. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. Dempset. What year was that ?
Mr. Powi:rs. It must have been around 1923 or 1924.
The Chairman. When you came to the United States, how old
were you ?
Mr. Powers. As I stated, I was born in 1905 and came in in 1923.
You can figure it out.
94931— 40— vol. 12 15
7424 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You were 18 years of age when you came to this
country ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you become an American citizen by natural-
ization ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. What year did you take out your citizenship
papers ?
Mr. Powers. I didn't have to take out my citizenship papers, by
virtue of the fact that I was underage and my father was a citizen,
so I automatically became a citizen.
The Chairman. Your father was a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know when he became a citizen of the
United States?
Mr. Powers. I do not.
The Chairman. You don't know what year he became a citizen ?
Mr. Powers. I imagine it must have been before the war.
The Chairman. By naturalization, did he not?
Mr. Powers. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When you came to the United States did you enter
school or a university?
Mr. Powers. No, sir ; I never went to school.
The Chairman. You never went to school in the United States?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. What has been your occupation since you came
to the United States?
Mr. Powers. Well, I worked for quite a long time in the automo-
bile industry.
The Chairman. Beginning with what year?
Mr. Powers. With practically the day I came in.
The Chairman. Some time in 1923?
Mr. Powers. I went to work the next day.
The Chairman. What automobile company did you go to work
for?
Mr. Powers. I worked for the Ford Motor Co., Twin Cities.
The Chairman. The Ford Motor Co. at Twin Cities?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. How long did you work for the Ford Motor Co.?
Mr. Powers. About a year or so. I worked for Swift & Armour.
The Chairman. Following that?
Mr. Powers. I think prior to that.
The Chairman. You first went to work for the Ford Motor Co. ?
Mr. Powers. No : I worked for Ford Motor Co. during that period.
I don't recall exactlv whether I worked there first or last.
Tlie Chairman. That was the period beii'inning here in 1923?
Mr. PowTiRS. Well, the first place I worked was in Duluth, also in
an automobile shop.
The Chairman. Let me see if I can get it straight. I understood
you to say tliat when you came to the United States, the next day
you went to work?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. What company did you go to work for?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7425
Mr. PowKKS. I worked for an automobile company in Duluth,
Minn. I don't recall the name of tlie company. It has been a long
time. Lot me see if I can think of it. No; I can't think of it.
The CiiAnjMAN. How long did you work for that company at
Duluth, Minn.?
Mr. Powers. For about a year, I imagine.
The Chairimax. In what capacity did you work there?
Mr. Powers. Laborer.
The Chairman. Skilled laborer?
ISIr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. Just a day laborer?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. AVhat was the next company you worked for?
Mr. Powers. I worked for a company in St. Paul, Minn,, an auto-
mobile company.
The Chairman. St. Paul, Minn.?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Another one?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Can you recall the name of that company?
Mr. Powers. No; I can't. It was a small outfit. I worked for
a third one, small shop : I don't recall.
The Chairman. In St. Paul?
Mr. Powers. That is right. Following that I worked for Swift
& Armour Co.
The Chairman. That would be beginning about what year?
Mr. Powers. I figure it should be around 1924 the latter part of
1924.
The Chairman. The latter part of 1924 you started working for
the Swift Co. What was your work there?
Mr. Powers. Laboring.
The Chairman. What town was that ?
Mr. Powers. The same city, St. Paul.
The Chairman. How long did you work for that company?
Mr. Powers. Several months.
The Chairman. Seven months?
]\Ir. Powers. Several months, 3 or 4. I don't recall the exact time.
The Chairman. Then you went to work for Ford ?
Mr. Powers. Yes. I tliink around that time I worked for Ford
Motor. Following that job I held a job in the Ford Motor Co., the
Twin Cities plant.
The Chairman. How long did you work for the Ford Motor Co. ?
Mr. Powers. I can't recall. Not very long. I imagine for 8 or
9 months.
The Chair:man. Eight or 9 months?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. Then what was the next company vou worked for ?
Mr. Powers. Following that?
The Chairman. Yes.
]Mr. Powj:rs. I was unemployed for quite a long time.
The Chairman. Beginning with what j'ear were voii unemployed ^
Mr. Powers. 1927—1926 or 1927.
The Chairman. Either 192G or 1927 you were unemployed and
contnuied to be unemployed for how many years?
7426 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Powers. I was unemployed for about a year.
Tlie Chairman. Then you went to work for what company?
Mr. Powers. For the U. S. Bedding Co.
The Chairman. Beg pardon ?
Mr. CoHN. U. S. Bedding Co.
The Chairman. How long did you work for that company?
Mr. Powers. Off and on — I worked two or three times. I don't
recall. I worked for about a year.
The Chairman. About a year altogether?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Can you state the next company you went to work
for?
Mr. Powers. That is all I worked. I have worked for
The Chairman. That carries you into 1927.
Mr. Powers. About 1928.
The Chairman. 1928?
Mr. Powers. 1927 or 1928.
The Chairman. From that period on you have been unemployed?
Mr. Powers. I worked for a while for the Bethlehem Steel Co.;
late in 1933, 1 believe it was.
The Chairman. How long did you work for them?
Mr. Powers. A few weeks.
The Chairman. With the exception of the Bethlehem Steel Co.,
have you been unemployed since 1928 ?
Mr. Powers. Well, I wouldn't call it unemployed. I have been
working for the Communist Party.
The Chairman. I mean, you haven't worked for any industry or
have any occupation outside of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Powers. No; no industry. And I worked for other labor
organizations, including the American Federation of Labor.
The Chairman : You worked for the American Federation of Labor?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. And for the C. I. O.?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. In what capacity have you worked for those
organizations ?
Mr. Powers. At times as business agent; at times as organizer.
The Chairman. Were you business agent for both unions?
Mr. Powers. Not at any one time.
The Chairman. I understand that you at one time were business
agent for the A. F. of L.
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. What union?
Mr. Powers. Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel and
Tin Workei-s.
The Chairman, During what year were you business agent for that
organization ?
Mr. Powers. During the period of 1933.
The Chairman. During 1933?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. You were business agent?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Were you ever an organizer for the A. F. of L. ?
Mr. Powers. Well, it is similar to an organizer's job.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7427
The CiiAiRiMAN. You mean the business agent covered both?
Mr. Powers. That is liolit. It is a different term for organizer.
The Chairman. Then, when did you become organizer for the
C. I. O.^
Mr. Powkrs. During the campaign in the steel industry in 1937.
The Chairsian. During the year 1937?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Your work was confined to the steel industry ?
Mr. Powers. That is cori-ect.
The Chairman. AVas your official title organizer or business agent?
Mr. Powers. Organizer.
The Chairman, How long did you serve as organizer for the
C. I. O.?
^Ir. Powers. From June 193G to late August 1937.
The Chairman. Is that the only connection you had with either
one of the unions^
Mr. Powers. No; I also worked for the Textile Workers' Union
during the period of 1930, 1931, and part of 1932.
The Chairman. Where were you stationed^
The Chairman. In Allentown, Pa.
The Chair:man. You were an organizer for the Textile Union?
^Ir. PoAVERS, That is right.
The Chairman. Was there any other position you held in con-
nection with any labor union?
Mr. PoAVERS. Yes. At one time — I wasn't a paid official, but I was
an officer of the Building Trades of the A. F. of L.
The Chairman. Building Trades of the A. F. of L. ?
Mr. Powers. That is riglit.
The Chairman. What office would you call it?
]\Ir. Powers. AVell, I was their delegate to the Central Labor
Union; I was their delegate to the State Federation of Labor con-
vention in 1934: the Minnesota State Federation of Labor con-
vention.
The Chairman. Was there any other position or connection with
any labor union besides the ones you have told us about?
Mr. Powers. That is all.
The Chairman. That covers your activities in the union ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. You are a member of the Communist Party, are
you ?
Mr. Powers. I am secretary of it.
The Chairman. I asked you if you are a member of it.
Mr. Powers. Certainly
The Chairman (interposing). When did you become a member of
tlie Comnnniist Party: what year?
Mr. Powers. The middle of 192.5, I believe.
The Chairman, In 1925 ?
Mr. Powers. IZarly 1925.
The Chairman. Where did you join the Communist Party; in what
city were you ?
Mr. Powers. I joined in St, Paul, Minn.
The Chairman, St. Paul, Minn.?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
7428 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVmES
The Chairman. Have you been continuously a member of the party
since that period ?
Mr. Powers. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Do your brothers live in the United States at the
present time?
Mr. Powers. I think that is a personal question. I don't think I
should answer it.
The Chairman. I am asking you if your brothers live in the
United States. You said they came to the United States with you.
Mr. Powers. That is true ; but I don't think I am here to give any
information as to my brothers. I am here to testify as to communism
in regard to myself. I don't think I should give any facts with
regard to members of my family.
The Chairman. You are here to answer the questions the mem-
bers of the committee ask you. You decline to answer the question
as to whether or not your brothers are now in the United States ?
Mr. Cohn. May I say, Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Wait. Let me get your name.
Mr. CoHN. My name is Sol H. Colin. I am an attorney in New
York City. I represent Mr. Powers.
The Chairman. You are the attorney of record for Mr. Powers?
Mr. CoHN. That is correct.
The Chairman. State your objection.
Mr. Cohn. My objection to this c|uestion is that this delves into the
private and personal life of the witness, and under the rule in the
Sinclair case this committee has no right to go into private or per-
sonal matters.
The Chairman. I will frame the question this way : Are your
brothers likewise members of the Communist Party of the United
States ?
Mr. Cohn. May I say to the court that that objection similarly
covers the personal question of the chairman.
The Chairman. Then, on advice of your counsel you decline to
state whether or not your two brothers are members of the Com-
munist Party of the United States?
Mr. Cohn. He so declines.
Mr. Lynch. Wait a minute. Let the witness do the declining.
Mr. Powers. I decline,
Mr. Lynch. Then I ask the Chair to direct him to answer.
Mr. Cohn. You have it on record. He said he declines.
Mr. Lynch. Wait a minute. I ask the Chairman to direct him to
answer the question.
The Chairman. That is a formality. The witness is instructed
to answer to the question as to whether or not his two brothers are
now members of the Communist Party of the United States.
Mr. Lynch. Repeat your answer.
Mr. Powers. I decline to answer the question.
The Chairman. Now, in connection with the Communist Party
Mr. Lynch. Excuse me. Will the record show there is a quorum
of the committee present when this question was asked?
The Chairman. When the Chair began the deliberations this morn-
ing, a subcommittee was appointed because we did not have a quorum
present, but at the time this question was asked a full quorum is
UX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7429
present: ]Mr. Voorliis, Mr. Dempse}', the Chairman, Mr. Thomas,
and yiv. Mason.
You likewise decline to answer the (]nestion as to whether or not
your hrothers are now in the United States? I want tlie record to be
complete on that. Is that true?
Mr. Powers. I decline to give an}'^ information about anyone except
mysel f .
The CiiAiKMAx. I am askino; a direct question. You decline to
state whether or not your brothers are now in the United States?
Mr. Powers. I re])eat. 1 decline to give any information about
members of my family.
The Chairman. I want vou to answer the direct question.
Mr. Powers. AVell
The Chairmax. AVe are asking you now about your brothers. You
decline to answer whether or not your brothers are in the United
States i
Mr. Powers. I decline to give any information about members of
my family. I consider that those are private matters.
^Ir. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, could we go back for a minute to one
of these things?
The Chairmax. I want to get something here; then we will go
back in a moment.
You have been a member of the Communist Party since 1925.
"What official positions have you held in the Communist Party, start-
ing with 1925 down to the present time?
]Mr. Poavers. I was secretary of the party of North Carolina.
The Chairman^. Secretarv of the Communist Party of North Caro-
lina?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairmax. Was that your first position?
Mr. Powers. That was my first paid position.
The Chairmax. I want to oret any position, whether you were paid
or not. After you joined in 1925, what was the first position that
you held in the party outside of mere membership in the party?
Mr. Powers. "Well, I was probably secretary of branches of the
Dartv in various communities where I lived at, either in Duluth or
St. Paul.
The Chairmax^. "V^Tierever vou lived you were secretary of the
branches that you w^ere a member of?
"\rr. Powers. That is ri<rht.
The Chairman'. "^Vas there any other position before you were sec-
retary of the Communist Party of North Carolina outside of secretary
of the branches?
Mr. Powers. No. I was a member of certain committees, but I
IipM 71 o official position.
The Cttatrmax. Then you became secretary of the Communist
Partv of North Carolina, on what date?
^fr. Powers. Tn January or February of 1929.
The CHAnsMAX". January or February of 1929?
Mr. Powers. Yes. sir.
The CHATR->rAx. "VAHiat town were vou residing in at that time?
Mr. Poavers. You mean in North Carolina?
The Chairman-. Yes.
7430 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Powers. Charlotte, Winston-Salem.
The Chairman. Charlotte, N. C. ?
Mr. Powers. And Winston-Salem.
The Chairman. How lon^ did you serve as secretary of the Com-
munist Party of North Carolina?
Mr. Powers. For about a year.
The Chairman. For about a year ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Were you at that time active in the textile union?
Mr. PoM'ERs. Well, it all depends on how you understand the
word ''active." I was not an organizer for the textile union, but I
knew textile workers, many of them who were in the party. I met
with them, discussed their problems with them.
The Chairman. That was a paid position, the first paid position
you held with the party?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. At the time that you were secretary of the Com-
munist Party of North Carolina, how many members did you have
in the Communist Party?
Mr. Powers. I can't recall that. It was a long time ago. It has
been over 10 years. We probably had several hundred members in
the State.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Powers. About two or three hundred.
The Chairman. Members in the State?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Where were they mostly located, in and around
Charlotte and Winston-Salem?
Mr. POWERS. That is right.
The Chairman, After that, what was your next position with the
Comnuniist Party? By the way, before I get to that, what were
your duties as secretary of the Communist Party of North Carolina ?
Mr. Powers. My duties as secretary of the Communist Party of
North Carolina were to manage the affairs of the party, to iiicet
with people
The Chairman. Manage the affairs of the party?
Mr. Powers. That is right, in a political sense.
The Chairman. You did what with people?
Mr. Powers. Met with people, discussed problems.
The Chairman. Did you have custody of the records and books
of the Communist Party of North Carolina?
Mr. Powers. No, sir; we didn't have any records at that time.
The Chairman. You kept no records?
Mr. Powers. Not at that time.
The Chairman. Did you keep any membership records?
Mr. Powers. In the South, in 1929?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Powers. I think the chairman of this committee can tell you
you couldn't.
The Chairman. Listen; I am asking you a question.
Mr. Powers. I am answering in my own way.
The Chairman. You didn't keep any membership record whatso-
ever; is that right?
rX-AMERirAN rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7431
Mr. Powers. That is ri<;ht.
The Chairman. When anyone joined the party you issued a book;
is that correct?
Mr. Powers. No; I didn't.
The Chairman. Did anyone issue a book?
Mr. Powers. Yes. We had a person in cliar<ic to issue books.
The Chairman. AVhat was the position of that person, what was
lie called '(
Mr. Powers. He worked in the office, a stenographer and typist.
The Chairman. Stenograi)her in the office?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. He had charge of issuing books to the members?
]\lr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Were those books signed by you as secretary?
IVIr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. Who collected the dues, you or the stenographer in
the office?
Mr. Powers. No; we had a person separately in charge of collect-
ing dues.
The Chairman. Another person in the office?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Was that another stenographer?
Mr. Powers. No; we had a financial secretary.
The Chairman. You had a financial secretary who had charge of
collecting dues?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The CHAiR:\rAN. You made no record, however, for the party or
for your own benefit or that of anyone else of the names of those who
were members of the party?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. You made no record?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. How did you know who were members, through
memory ?
Mr. Powers. Yes. we had to remember those things, because in
the South at the time they had a tremendous amount of terror against
the union, against labor organizations; people were lynched, tarred
and feathered, meetings were broken up. I guess you know about it
as much as I do.
The Chairman. After you were secretary of the Communist Party
of North Carolina — you held that about a year, I believe you said?
Mr. Powp:rs. That is right.
The Chairman. What was your next position with the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Powers. I worked in Philadelphia after that.
The Chairman. After you left North Carolina you went to Phil-
adelphia?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you become secretary of the party in Phil-
adelphia?
Mr. Powers. No; I secured work with the Trade Union Unity
League.
The Chairman. Trade Union Unity League ?
7432 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Powers. That is riglit.
The Chairman. What was your position with that organization?
Mr. Powers. I was secretary of the Phihidelphia organization.
The Chairman. What position with the Communist Party did
you hold, if any, during that period?
Mr. Powers. Sir?
The Chairman. Did you have any position witli the Communist
Party itself during that period ?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were just a member of the party in Phil-
adelphia ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Was the Trade Union Unity League affiliated
with the Communist Party?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were its members composed largely of Com-
munists ?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. What percentage of the membership were Com-
munists and what percentage non-Communists?
Mr. Powers. I can't recollect now. I can't say what percentage
were members of the Communist Party.
The Chairman. How long were you in Philadelphia?
Mr. PoAVERS. I worked in Philadelphia and nearby for about 2i^
years.
The Chairman. And during that period you had no official posi-
tion with the Communist Party, or in the Communist Party, during
that 21/2 year period?
Mr. Powers. Not during the period I worked around the Philadel-
phia district.
The Chairman. Well, I believe you said that was 21/^ years.
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. During that period did you go other places or were
you there most of the time ?
Mr. Powers. I was there practically all the time.
The Chairman. You had no position with the Communist Party
anywhere during that period? I mean, outside of Philadelphia.
Mr. Powers. Not during the time I worked with the Trade Union
Unity League.
The Chairman. Well, that was for a period of 2i/2 years?
Mr. Powers. About.
The Chairman. Then after the lapse of that 2V2 years, where did
you go ?
Mr. Powers. I worked in Baltimore, Md.
The Chairman. What position with the Communist Party did you
hold, if any, in Baltimore?
Mr. Powers. I held no position Avith the Communist Party there.
The Chairman. What was your work ?
Mr. Powers. My work was to organize the steel workers of the
Bethlehem Steel Co.
The Chairman. To organize workers of the Bethlehem Steel Co. ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Who paid you during that time ?
Mr. Powers. The Steel and" Metal Workers' Union.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7433
The Chaikman. The Steel and Metal Workers' Union paid you?
Mr. Powers. Tliat is ri<rht.
The Chairman. How long were yon there approximately?
Mr. Powers. I was there up until about the middle of 1934.
The Chairman. "Was that union an affiliate of the Trade Union
Unity League at that time ?
Mr. Powers. At first it was.
The Chairman. After you left Baltimore and ceased your connec-
tion with this union, where did you go?
Mv. Powers. I went to the Pittsburgh district.
The Chairman. Pittsburgli district. And you have been in Pitts-
burgh ever since ?
]\Ir. Powers, Ever since.
The Chair:man. Your position is now what with the Communist
Party?
INIr. Powers. It is secretary of the district organization.
The Chairman. When were you made secretary of the district
organization ?
Mr. Powers. xVbout 6 months ago.
The Chairman. About 6 months ago?
]\Ir. Powers. Let me see. To be exact, the latter part of October.
The Chairman. Pardon me; I didn't get that.
Mr. Powers. The latter part of October.
The Chair:man. Prior to the time you were made secretary of the
district organization, what position, if any, did you hold in the Com-
munist Party of Pittsburgh? You have been there about 7 years;
you have been secretary of the district organization 6 or 7 months.
Wliat position, if any, did you have with the party before then?
Mr. Powers. WellJ I didn't hold any official position, but I worked
for the party. I helped along with the work in the Pittsburgh
district.
The Chairman. Did you receive a salary from the party?
jNIr. Po"\\'ERS. Yes.
The Chairman. You had no official position, however?
Mr. Powers. Well, part of the time I worked for the C. I. O. That
was during the 193&-37 period.
The Chairman. You worked for the C. I. O. ?
Mr. Powers. For a little over a year.
The Chairman. You were working for the C. I. O. and the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Poavers. Oh, no; no, sir.
The Chairman. During the time you were working for the C. I. O.
you were not working for the Communist Party ?
Mr. Powers. That is correct. As a matter of fact, I was out of
the State for some time.
The Chairman. You were what?
Mr. Powers. I was out of the State entirely for some time.
The Chairman. How long
Mr. Powers. I was sent into Kentucky.
The Chairman. You went where?
Mr. Powers. To Kentucky.
The Chairman. That was during the 7-year period that you spoke
about ?
Mr. Powers. That was during the period of 1936-37.
7434 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Where did you go in Kentucky?
Mr. Powers. Ashhmd.
The Chairman. What did you say?
Mr. Powers. Ashland.
The Chairman. Did you go tliere on some mission for the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Powers. No ; I went there as a representative of the C. I. O.
The Chairman. For what purpose?
Mr. Powers. For the purpose of organizino- the American Rolling
Mills.
The Chairman. Organizing what?
Mr. Powers. Organizing the American Rolling Mills in Ashland.
The Chairman. How long were you there ?
Mr. Powers. Several months.
The Chairman. Several months?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. During the time that you were organizing for the
C. I. O. and the A. F. of L., were you paid by the union for that work?
Mr. Powers. Certainly.
The Chairman. Your pay came from the union?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. And had nothing to do with the Communist Party?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Since you have been secretary of the Communist
Party since its organization of Pittsburgh — or of Allegheny County,
is it ?
Mr, Powers. Well, it takes in several counties.
The Chairman. What counties are in the district you are secre-
tary of?
Mr. Powers. It takes in Allegheny, Washington, Green, Beaver,
Mercer, Erie — practically the entire western part of the State.
The Chairman. What are your duties as secretary of the district
organization?
Mr. Powers. Just what do you mean ?
The Chairman. You have
Mr. Powers. The same as the secretary of any other organization.
The Chairman. You have custody of the records ?
Mr. Powers. We have no records.
The Chairman. You keej) no records of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. In the district that you are secretary of?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. You have no membership records?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. You have no record of receipts or disbursements ?
]Mr. Powers. AVhat receipts? You mean membership book receipts?
The Chairman. Membership receipts.
Mr. Powers. No ; we don't.
The Chairman. You have no record of that ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. You make no record at the time payments are
made ?
Mr. Powt:rs. That is right.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7435
The Chairman. And you make no record of membership at the time
someone becomes a member of the party ?
Mr. PowEiJS. Are you askino; me if I make any records?
Tl\e Chairman. I am askino- you if any record is kept.
Mr, Powers. I am answerino- for myself.
The Chairman. All right, I will ask about you. Do you keep any
records ?
j\Ir. Powers. I do not.
The Chairman. Does anyone under you?
Mr. Powers. Certainly.
The Chairman. Who does that?
Mr. Powers. People who are responsible for it.
The Chairman. Give the people who are responsible for it, first
on the membership records.
Mr. Powers. Membership records we don't have, but other receipts
we do have.
The Chairman. And you have no one in the organization whose
duty it is to keep a record of the membership in the party?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. But 3'ou do have someone who has charge of
keeping a record of the payments of dues, is that right?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Who is that person?
Mr. Powers. On this problem, I would like to answer in the fol-
lowing way
The Chairman. What problem?
'Sb: Powers. Answering your question. Mr. Dies, questioning Mr..
Kunz, of Michigan, had the following to say
The Chairman. You must be responsive in your answer.
Mr. Powers. I am answering by the purpose of this committee.
The Chairman. I am asking you. We don't want any dissertation
from you about the duties or the functions of the committee.
Mr. Powers. I know you don't.
The Chairman. I am asking you the direct question, who has
charge. You have stated someone under you has charge of the
records of the payment of membership dues.
!Mr. Powers. Yes.
The Chairman. I am asking you the direct question
Mr. CoHN. May I
The Chairman. Wait a minute, until I conclude. I am asking
you this question, to state to the committee the name of such person.
Mr. Powers. In the first place, these people are elected, you see.
I was elected to this office and so are these people.
The Chairman. I am not asking you that. You can either answer
my question or decline to answer it.
]\fr. PowKRs. I am answering it in my own way, and I wish you
Avould give me an opportunity to answer.
The Chairman. You are not going to make an evasive state-
ment here.
Mr. Powers. I will not. I will answer the question. If you will
give me a chance to explain. I will answer it, but I won't answer it
just the way you want it. My privilege is to answer it the way I
please.
7436 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. I am asking you for the name of the person. If
you have an explanation following that
Mr. Powers. If you are a little bit patient, I will answer it.
The Chairman. I am asking you now the name of the person, and
if you have any explanation following that you may give it.
Mr. Powers. I will answer the question and after that answer
has been made, if it is unsatisfactory, you may state so. I am willing
to answer all questions here before this committee. The problem of
our records, committees, names of people, membership, will be in-
volved, and Mr. Dies has made it clear that he wants to blacklist
those
The Chairman. Oli, no; I won't stand for any such statement as
that.
Mr. Powers. I am not going to be a party to any blacklist. You
have the wrong man here.
The Chairman. You are going to treat this committee with some
courtesy and respect.
Mr. Powers. That is correct ; I will.
The Chairman. I am asking you a question ; state the name of the
person under you in the organization who you testified was in
charge of the record of the paj'ment of dues. Now, answer that
question.
Mr. Powers. You see
The Chairman. No; answer the question; the name of the person.
Mr. Powers. I will not give you any names of any people, because
you are trying to build up a blacklist.
The Chairman. All right. You are directed to answer
Mr. Powers. Because you are blacklisting. I will prove it by
Martin Dies' statement.
The Chairman. Let the record show that the witness has declined
to answer the question asked by the chairman.
Mr. Powers. Due to the fact that Mr. Dies is trj^ing to blacklist our
people in industry. That is why we are not going to supply ammuni-
tion for him, or Tom Girdler either.
The Chairman. No more volunteered statements.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I want to raise a very serious question
in connection with this witness. According to the testimony of this
witness he came here from Kussia with his mother ancf two brothers
in 1923, when he was 18 years of age. He states under oath that he
does not know the name that he Avent by. He states under oath that
he didn't have to make application for citizenship papers of his
own, but that he acquii-ed citizenship by virtue of the fact that his
father had taken out citizenship papers before he was 21 years of
age, which would automatically make him a citizen. I insist that I
have grave doubts about his citizenship, or whether his father was a
citizen, and I think that ought to be at least gone into and proven,
as to whether he is a citizen and entitled to the privileges of citizen-
ship in this country.
Mr. Powers. I am fully willing.
Mr. Thomas. I raise that question.
The Chairman. All right, we will come to that.
I ask for the sake of the record if you have anyone else under you
in the district organization of the Communist Party, in the district
of which you are secretary, who is in charge of any records of the
UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7437
Coniinuiiist Party, outside of the one you already have testified to
as re<2:;irds dues i)ayuients.
Mr. l*o\VEKs. No; -vve have no one in charge of records, member-
ship records.
The Chairman. Do you have financial records?
Mr. Powers. Financial, we do.
The Chairman. Outside of the financial records
Mr. Powers. We don't have anyone in charge of any records of
the party membershi)) in the Pennsylvania district.
The Chairman. I will ask you a further question; to explain to
the committee Avhat the district organization is; what does it consist
of ? You, fii-st, as secretary — do you have a committee ?
Mr. Powers. Yes, we have. The district organization of the party
fuiu'tions according to our constitution. Our constitution provides
that their be a district convention held regularly. At our last dis-
trict convention, which was a little over a year ago, our district com-
mittee was elected, the same as committees are elected in other organ-
izations, especially labor organizations. It was elected publicly. It
consists of some 35 or 3G people. The district convention also elects
the district secretary and the chairman of the district.
The Chairman. The district committee has some 30 or 35 people?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. They to some extent control your actions?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. I mean, you report to them?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. They selected you
Mr. Powers. No; the district convention selects me, but in between
district conventions I am responsible to them for whatever action
is taken in the district.
The Chairman. During the period during which the convention
does not meet, the district committee has control ?
Mr. Po"\vers. That is correct.
The Chairman. And you are responsible to the committee?
IVIr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Will you state to the committee the names of the
members, or as many members as you can, of the district committee ?
Mr. Powers. For fear of the blacklist, I will not state any.
The Chairman. You are directed by the Chair to do so, and you
decline to do so; is that correct?
Mr. Powers. I consider your question answered.
The Chairman. All right. In addition to your district committee,
you have section organizers, do you not?
Mr. Powers. No ; we do not. We had them before last September,
but since September we have worked on a different policy. It is
more or less voluntary work, taken care of by committees.
The Chairman. You mean that district organizers have been
abolished in the Communist Party?
]\rr. Powers. No, no. You are confusing district organizers with
section secretaries.
The Chairman. I see.
'Mr. Powers. I am willing to clarify it if you will give me an
opportunity.
7438 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. All right, clarify it.
Mr. Powers. You see, the district secretary of the party takes care
of the entire district. Then each county has a county organization.
The county organizations are entirely separate, and prior to September
each county organization had a full-time paid organizer. Since Sep-
tember that system has been abolished. On the basis of our own ex-
perience we decided to do away with that, and, instead of county
organizers, we have county organizations, the same as the Democratic
and Eepublican Parties. There are county organizations taking care
of the branches and whatever locals there are in that section.
The Chairman. Do you have any district organizer?
Mr. PoA\^RS. I am the district organizer.
The Chairman. Anyone besides you?
Mr. Powers. No.
The Chairman. You are the only district organizer?
Mr. PoAVERS. That is correct.
The Chairman. On this work?
Mr. Powers. That is correct.
The Chairman. Do vou have branche,s of the party in your dis-
trict?
Mr. Powers. Certainly.
The Chairman. How many branches do you have ?
Mr. Powers. Oh, over 130 or so.
The Chairman. One hundred and thirty branches?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. What is the total membership in your district?
Mr. Powers. I can't give you this information offhand ; I wouldn't
know. I know the a])proximate membership.
The Chairman. Well, what is the approximate membership ?
Mr. Powers. About 2,500.
The Chairman. About 2.500 in your district ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
The Chairman. Does each branch have a secretary ?
Mr. Powers. I assume they have ; yes. They should.
The Chairman. Each branch ha,s a secretary. Do you know any
of the secretaries of the branches in your district ?
Mr. PoAVERS. Yes.
The Chairman. Will you state to the committee the names of the
secretaries of the branches that you know ?
Mr. Powers. Most of our secretaries work in mills and mines, and
I will not turn over any names to such a committee as this.
The Chairman. The Chair directs you to state the names of the sec-
retaries of those branches, and 3'ou decline to do so?
Mr. Powers. I decline to do so for the statement I made a minute
affo. I decline to do so for reasons
"•i^"
The Chairman. Have you since your arrival in the United States
that you testified about ever — your first arrival ; since that time have
you ever returned to Russia ?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Tlie Chairman. You never made any trip to Russia?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been out of the United States during
that period?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7439
The Chairman. All ri<>lit. Mr. Matthews will question you.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, may I ask by virtue of what authority
Mr. Mattliews becomes tlie questioner?
The Chairman. By virtue of the autliority of this committee.
Mr. CoHN. Have you delepited it to him?
The Chairman. He is authorized by this connnittee.
Mr. CoiiN. Is lie autliorized in writino- or orally by the committee?
The Chairman. He is now being authorized to ask questions. Pro-
ceed, Mr. ]\Iatthews.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you used the name George Powers?
Mr. Powers. Ever since it became confused with this fellow who
became — turned out to be a rat in Xew York.
ISIr. Matthews. When was that ?
Mr. Powers. Oh, many years ago.
Mr. Matthews. HowMong was it, specifically? When did you
adopt the name George Powers?
Mr. Powers. Ever since — I would say ever since 1S23 or 1924. I
don't recall.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever in the course of your work in the
Connnunist Party gone under any other name than that of George
Powers ?
Mr, Powers. Xot to my knowledge.
IVIr. Matthews. Have you ever gone under the name of M. H.
Powers ?
Mr. Powers. I did not; but at times, through a mistake, it was
recorded ; I notice it was brought out several times, but I never went
about under it.
Mr. ^Matthews. Where was it so recorded by mistake?
^Ir. Powers. Several places — I don't recall.
Mv. Matthews. Was it so recorded bj' mistake in the publications
of the Communist Part}- ?
Mr. Powers. It may have been for all I know.
Mr. Matthews. Were you always known as M. H. Powers in the
period about which we are speaking now — in the Dailv Worker?
Mr. Powers. What is that ?
The Chairman. Will you please answer a little louder ? It is diffi-
cult to hear.
Mr. Matthews. Were you known as M. H. Powers in the Daily
Worker ?
Mr. Powers. I don't recall it. It might have been printed M. H.
Powers insi:ead of George Powers.
Mr. MAT-rHEAvs. Had you ever used the name George Powers up to
that time?
Mr. Poa\t:rs. Up to what time ?
Mr. Matthews. Up to the time you used the name M. H. Powers.
Mr. Poavers. I can't understand your question. Have I ever used
the name George Powers up to the time
Mr. Matthews. When you used the name M. H. Powers.
Mr. Powers. AVell, I don't see that is important. What is the
question about ? What do you want to knoAv ?
Mr. ^Matthews. I want to know when you adopted the name George
Powers, and why and when you used the name M. H. Powers.
94931— 40— vol. 12 16
7440 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Powers. Well, at times, as I told you — at times the name was
printed in various publications or papers, at times tliey referred to me
as George Powers, and at times tliey referred to me as M. H. Powers.
Mr. Matthews. But in the publications of the Communist Party
you were also known as M. H. Powers?
Mr. Powers. I don't recall it. They might have printed that. I
can't recall Avhat somebody printed about me. I am not interested in
that. I am not so much interested in myself as all that.
Mr. Matthews. Are you acquainted with the publication Labor De-
fender, once published by the International Labor Defense?
Mr. Powers. Yes; I do.
Mr. Matthew^s. Have you seen many of its issues in the past years?
Ml'. Powers. No; it has been out of print for a long time, I believe.
Mr. Matthews. Well, while it was in existence, did you see its issues
regularly?
Mr. Powers. Occasionally.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see your name and picture
Mr. Powers. I don't recall it.
Mr. Matthews. In the issues of the Labor Defender ?
Mr. Powers. I may have.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Powers, are you under indictment for a capital
ofl'ense in the State of Georgia?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. ]\Latthews. Were you ever under an indictment for a capital
offense in tlie State of Georgia?
Mr. Powers. I object to this question.
Mr. Matthews. How is that?
Mr. P<^wERS. I object to answering this question. It has nothing to
do villi your investigation.
The Chairman. You decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Powers. I will answer it. I was indicted in Atlanta, Ga., for
distributing leaflets and holding meetings. That is a capital offense
in Georgia where some of these gentlemen come from.
Mr. ^Matthews. What was the indictment?
Mr. Powers. The indictment?
Mr. Matthews. Yes.
Mr. Powi-:rs. I don't recall the indictment, but that was the so-called
crime you are referring to. We held a meeting of about 30 people, and
they charged me with a capital offense in Georgia.
Mr. Matthews. Wasn't it an indictment for inciting to insurrection ?
Mr. Pov.'ERS. No, sir ; I didn't incite to any insun-ection, because we
Avere sitting in a room, 30 of us, holding a meeting.
IVIr. INL^TTHEws. I am asking you what the indictment itself stated.
The indictment states it was a charge of inciting to insurrection ?
Mr. Powers. Well, in the South anything is inciting to insurrection
that does not suit the gentlemen of the South.
The Chairman. That is not responsive. The committee will have
no demonstrations on the part of sympathizers or fellow^ members. No
demonstrations wnll be permitted. Proceed.
Mr. Powers. You see, there was a law passed during the period of
18(;l, during the slave uprising, saying that any slave that talks
against its master shall be charged with inciting to insurrection, and
that is the law that was called in when I was distributing leaflets.
UN-AMERirAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7441
Mr. Matthews. So voii were indicted for inciting to insurrection?
Mr. Powers. I answered the question.
Mr. Mai-hiiews. What year was that that you were indicted?
Mr. l*ow£i{8. I believe it was, to be exact, in xVpril of 1929.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. It was 1930, wasn't it?
Mr. I*o^\'ERs. 1930? Then you know better than I do.
Mr. jMatthews. With wlioin Avere you asso(;iat(Hl in that indict-
ment? Do you recall the names of the other persons involved?
jMr. Powers. I don't think I should mention the names of the other
peo])le involved.
Mr. Mati'iiews. Was Ann Burlak one of the members of the Com-
munist Partv indicted with you?
^Nlr. l^owERS. Not with me. She must have been indicted separately.
]Mr. MA'rriiEws. Was she indicted on the same charge at the same
time you were?
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, may I object to going into this line of
testimou}' on the ground it is inconsequential, immaterial, has no rele-
vancy whatever to the scope of the investigation of this body.
The CiiAiKMAX. The objection is overruled. Proceed.
Mr. Casey. I think if there was a conviction we ought to go on with
this— —
]N[r. Powers. There was no conviction; the case was dismissed 2
weeks ago.
Mr. ^Matthews. In that case, how did you give your name to the
court ?
Mr. Powers. It has been a long time ago. I don't recall it.
Mr. jNIatthews. Don't you know you gave your name to the court
as j\I. H. Powers ?
Mr. Powers. I don't know. You asked me if I knew. I don't. I
may have. I don't know. It has been 10 years ago.
Mr. ]Maithews. Mr. Chairman, I should like to have introduced
into evidence as an exliibit. page 154 of the Labor Defender for Au-
gust 1930. This publication was the official publication of the Inter-
national Labor Defense at that time, and in that issue of the Labor
Defender, on page 154, Mv. Powers' biography is set forth, including
the following items:
That his name is M. H. Powers; that he was from St. Paul; that
he was 23 years old at the time (that was in 1930) : that he joined
the Communist Party in October 1923, and not in 1925, as he has
testified here; that he was an active organizer for the Trade Union
Unity League, an affiliate of the Profintern, with headquarters in
Moscow, and that he was an organizer for the party in the South.
Also page 257 of the Labor Defender for December 1930, which
like the other issue, contains a picture of Mr. Powers and states
that his name is M. H. Powers.
Other publications of the Communist Party, including the Daily
Woi'ker for a ))eriod of at least 2 years, constantlj^ referred to this
gentleman as M. H. Powers.
Mr. CoHX. Mr. Chairman, upon the offer of this evidence I wish
the record to show that I am making objection upon the ground,
first, that thi.s questioner has himself been testifying as to what
those records show; second, that the evidence, even if admissible,
that the evidence, even if it had been produced before you, I should
7442 UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
say is of no consequence, is incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial,
not properly identified, and no foundation has been laid for it.
The Chairman. Ask the witness if the information contained in
the publication was correct or incorrect.
Mr. CoHN. May I say, Mr. Chairman, he doesn't have the publica-
tion before him.
The Chairmax. He can certainly ask him specific questions and
ask him if that is correct or incorrect.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Powers, did you join the Communist Party
in 1023?
]Mr. Powers. I stated before the committee when I joined the
Communist Party.
Mr. Matthews. You did join the Communist Party in 1923, as
stated in the Labor Defender?
Mr. Powers. I already answered this question.
The Chairman. He is asking you a question which you can cer-
tainly answer. He has asked you whether or not you joined the
party in 1923.
Mr. Powers. I joined the party in 1925.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Matthews. When you were in Philadelphia were you as-
sociated in any capacity whatever with Leon Piatt?
Mr. Powers. I don't recall being associated with any such person.
Mr. Matthews. Do you recall Leon Piatt ?
Mr. Powers. I never heard of such a name.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Martin Young, your predecessor
in your present ]iosition?
Mr. Powers. I do.
Mr. Matthews. Do you not know that Martin Young is an alias
for Leon Piatt?
Mr. Powers. I know nothing about it.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, there is testimony to that effect
before this committee.
Have you seen Martin Young since your arrival in Washington
yesterday morning?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Have you seen Leon Piatt?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Since your arrival in Washington yesterday morn-
ing?
Mr. Powers. I don't know any such person. I met no one since
I came in yesterday morning, except my attorney.
Mr. Matthews. Is it your testimony you did not associate in any
wav with Leon Piatt in Philadelphia while you were there?
Ml'. Powers. I don't recall any such person.
Mr. Matthews. Were you associated with Martin Young during
that period?
Mv. Powers. In Pittsburgh, yes; not in Philadelphia.
Mr. Matthews. Never in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Powers. No.
Mr. Lynch. How long have you known Martin Young?
Mr. Powers. Since I came into Pittsburgh, but I think that is
Mr. Lynch. What is his home address?
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
T'X-A.MKIUCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7443
Mr. Lynch. Have yon ever been to liis lioine?
INIr. l\)WEi{s. When '.
Mr. Lynch. Any time in the last few years.
]Mi-. PoAVEKs. Yes.
Mr. Lyxch. Wliat is his address?
Mr. Powers. His number was 2 Demling Way.
Mr. Lynch. How do you sj^ell that?
Mr. PowEKs. I don't know how you spell it; Demling.
Mr. Lynch. Pittsburgh?
Mr. PowEiis. Yes. It is generally known; everybody knows it.
Mr. Lynch. A^Hien was his address the one you have just given us?
Mr. PowEKS. Sir?
Mr. Lynch. When was his address the one you have just given us,
2 Demling AVay?
Mr. Powers. About a year ago.
Mr. Lynch. Have you been to his home in the last year?
Mr. P(.)WERS. Not since, I would say, last August.
Mr. Lynch. Was that his address then?
Mr. Powers. It probably was.
?^Ir. Lynch. No ; was it or not ? If you were there, you would know.
Mr. Powers. Yes: it was.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know whether he has changed his address
since that time?
]\rr. Powers. He left after August. He was sick, so he was relieved
and I took his place.
Mr, Lynch. Do you know his address since last August?
Mr. Powers. No. sir; I don't.
Mr. Lynch. When was the last time you saw him ?
Mr. Powers. In August.
Mr. Ly'nch. Last year ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
Mr. Ly'nch. That was in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Powers. Correct.
Mr. Lynch. Where is he now ?
]Mr. Powers. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Are you familiar with the membership card of the
Comnnniist Party in Allegheny County?
Mr. Powers. I am. I have one, so I must be.
]\Ir. Lynch. Let us see yours. Have you got it with you?
Mr. Powers. I haven't got it here.
Mr. Lynch. Did you produce it today, in response to your subpena?
Mr. Powers. No.
Mr. Lynch. Where are the records you produced in response to
that subpena ?
Mr. Powers. I told you I wouldn't produce any records. I refuse
to produce any records to this committee because of the blacklist they
are trying to use.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to pro-
duce whatever records he has in response to the subpena duces tecum.
The Chairman. As I understand it, the witness said he brought no
records.
Mr. Powers. I brought no records,
Mr. Lynch. And you refuse to obey that subpena ?
Mr. Powers. I haven't any here, so it is impossible to produce them.
7444 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CoHN. May I say, if the Chair pleases, that he first testified
The Chairman. Just a minute, now.
Mr. Lynch. I introduce the subpena in evidence, and I ask that it
be made a part of the record.
Tlie Chairman. And he refuses to produce the records in response
to the subpena ?
Mr. CoHN. IMay I say he testified that there were no records with
regard to membership lists. If I recall the testimony, it was that there
were no membership lists, that there were financial records which were
not in his custody or control.
Mr. Lynch. He didn't say anything of the kind.
Mr. Powers. I did say that.
Mr. Lynch. Are you familiar with this book which I am showing
you, which has heretofore been marked "Exhibit No. 1"?
Mr. Powers. I am not familiar with that; never saw it before.
. Mr. Lynch. You never saw it before this time?
Mr, Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. That is a membership book, is it not, in 1940?
Mr. Powers. Not this book. I don't know ; it looks similar to books .
of 1940; yes.
Mr. Lynch. I show you in the left-hand corner of the first page,
"1940 Membership Book." Does that indicate it is the current-year
membership book?
Mr. Powers. I don't know where you got it. The books we have
look similar to this one.
Mr. Lynch. Does that appear to you to be a forgery ?
Mr. Powers. It may be, for all I know.
Mr. Lynch. I am asking you if it appears to be.
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Do you have a blank membership book with you ?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. You have those in the office, or don't you ?
Mr. Powers. Occasionally we have one or two.
Mr. Lynch. Martin Young's name is stamped on there. Who
would stamp that on there if it were a genuine book?
Mr. Powers. The person in charge.
Mr. Lynch. Who is the person in charge ?
]\Ir. Powers. I told you I am not giving any names.
Mr. Lynch. You are in charge of the office, are you not?
Mr. Powers. I am in charge of the office, but not of issuing books.
Mr, Lynch. Who would be in charge of issuing books?
Mr. Powers. The person who signs them.
Mr. Lynch. Someone under you ?
Mr. Powers. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Would he be the same person who would have charge
of the financial records ?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Give us the person who would have charge of the
issuing of membership books.
The Chairman. He has already declined.
Mr. Lynch. I want to put the question specifically. Give us the
name of the man who would be in charge of issuing membership books
in the Communist Party in your area.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7445
]Mr. PowEKS. I told Yoii that I Avouldii't give you any names of any
peo])le.
Mr. Lynch. You refuse to give that name ?
Mr. Powers. Because of the
Mr. Lynch. Wait a minute. Do you refuse to give that name?
Mr. Powers. I refuse to give any name for the purpose of
The Chair:sian. That is enough.
Mr. Lynch. Do you refuse to gi^'e that name?
JMr. Powers. What name ?
Mr. Lynch. The name I just asked you, of the man who issues the
membersliip-card book.
Mr. PowKRs. Wliat membership-card book?
Mr. Lynch. Such as the one just shown you, membership in the
Connnunist Party.
Mr. Powers. I tell you
'Sir. Lyxch. I am asking you if you will give us the name of the
man who issues the membership-card books.
Mr. Powers. I certainly will not.
!Mr. CoHN. May I request the Chair to give the witness an opportu-
nity to explain why he will not give any names?
The CHAmMAX. He has already; he has stated that two or three
times. Proceed, Mr. Lynch.
Mr. CoHN. May I sa}-, for the sake of tlie record, that the witness
has not been afforded an opportunity to make an explanation in full
of record ?
The Chairman. The witness has already made his statement. Mr.
Counsel, proceed.
Mr. CoHN. May I enter an objection upon the record to the chair-
man's refusal to permit this Avitness to explain at this time?
The Chahjman. No; you w^on't enter that, because that is not a
correct statement.
]Mr. CoHN. I must enter my objection
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever correct or write to the publications that
were using the name M. H. Powers, in connection with you, and tell
them your real name was George Powers?
Mr. Powers. Sir?
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever write to the publications that were using
the name ]\I. H. Powers and tell them it was wrong and that your real
name was George Powers?
IMr. Poavers. I don't recall anything like that.
Mr. Lynch. All right.
Mr. Casey. Did it make any difference to you whether your name
was used as George Powers or M. H. PoAvers ?'
Mr. Powers. That is a matter of opinion. I don't think I haA^e to
answer that. We are not discussing opinions here. You are sup-
posed to be investigating facts.
Mr. Casey. I am asking. Did it make any difference to you?
Mr. Poaat:rs. That is a matter of opinion.
Mr. Casey. You don't Avant to answer?
Mr. Poa\t:rs. I don't have to indicate my opinions on any matter.
Opinions are my i)rivate matter.
The Chairman. All right. Are there any more questions, gentle-
men ?
7446 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Yes. What is the amount of literature that you sell
at the office of which you are in charge ?
Mr. Powers. I sold Mr. Matthews $2 worth of literature the other
day.
Mr. Lynch. How nuich do you sell in a month ?
Mr. Matthews. It was $1.70.
Mr. Powers. I stand corrected.
Mr. Lynch. How much literature do you sell in a month at your
office ?
Mr. Powers. I don't know : I am not in charge of it.
Mr. Lynch. You sold Dr. Matthews some literature the other day;
you are in charge of that?
Mr. Powers. Because you illegally kidnapped Dolsen. Otherwise
he would be in charge of it.
Mr. Lynch. I move that be stricken from the record, because it is
wholly mitrue.
The Chairman. Stricken from the record.
Mr. Powers. Well, he was taken from the office, and he had no
opportunity
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Lynch. Plow do you turn over proceeds that come into your
hands as the representative of that district ?
Mr, Powers. No proceeds come into my hands. I am not in charge
of that.
Mr. Lynch. No money comes into your hands at all?
Mr. Powers. No.
Mr. Lynch. Where do you hold the meetings of the Communist
Party in your district ?
Mr. Powers. Wherever we can get a hall.
Mr. Lynch. Whei-e did you hold the last meeting?
IVIr. Powers. In the Carnegie Music Hall.
^Ir. Lynch. Carnegie Music Hall, Pittsburgh?
Mr, Powers. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. When ?
Mr. Lynch. Last month, I believe. We hold them regularly there ;
it is a public place.
Mr. Lynch. How often do you hold meetings?
Mr. Powers. What meetings?
Mr. Lynch. Meetings of the Communist Partv.
Air. Powers. Well, there are various meetings of the Communist
Party.
Mr, Lynch, Irrespective of what the nature of them is, how often
do you hold them ; once a week, once a month ?
Mr. Cohn. May I intrude for just a moment? There are different
types of meetings held at ditferenit periods and at different intervals.
Mr. Lynch. He can answer.
Mr. Cohn. Yes ; but you say any kind.
Mr. Lynch. He can explain.
Mr. Powers. I will ansvver. What meetings are you referring to —
what type of meetings?
Mr. Lynch. Any meetings you have.
Mr. Powers. We hold them as often as we please. We are a legal
organization. Whenever we feel like holding a meeting, we hold one.
Mr. Lynch. Is there any set time for these meetings ?
UN-AMERICAN rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7447
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Who calls the nieetiiifjs together?
Mr. IVnvERs. It depeiuls on what sort of ineetinos they are.
Mr. Lyn( II. Wiiat type of meetin<is do you have?
Mr. PoWKUs. Public nieetiuos, branch inectin<>-s. _
Mr. Lynch. How often do you hold branch meetings?
Mr. Powers. Wo hold branch nieetin<>s twice a month.
Mr. Lynch. Where are they usually held?
Mr. l\)WERs. That depends on where they make arrangements to
hold the meetings.
Mr. Ly-ncii. What other meetings do you have besides branch
meetings?
Mr. Powers. We have conventions.
j\Ir. Ly'nch. Hoav often do you hold them ?
Mr. Powers. Our constitution ])rovides for that.
Mr. Lynch. How often does that ])r()vide for them?
Mr. Powers. AVhenever the national committee of the party decides
to hold them. It is usually held about every 2 years.
Mr. Lynch. Where do you usually hold those ?
Mr. Powers. One was held in Madison Scjuare Garden.
Mr. Lynch. There is a list which shows whether or not a fellow has
paid his dues, isn't there? You testified to that a few minutes ago.
Mr. Powers. Well, the person in charge probably has one, but I
wouldn't know.
Mr. Ly'nch. Otherwise you wouldn't know whether a man was in
good standing or not, unless his dues had been paid?
Mr. Powers. We have no way of telling that ; no.
Mr. Ly'ncii. So the list would show whether or not he was paid up
to date, wouldn't it ?
Mr. Powers. AMiat list ?
INIr. Lynch. The list showing dues had been paid of a certain
member.
Mr. Powers. I told you I am not in charge of those lists, and I
wouldn't know just how they are handled. The person in charge takes
])roper care of them.
Ml-. Lynch. Don't y(ju know as head of the office what goes on in
the office?
Mr. Powers. Oh, yes ; I do.
Mr. Lynch. Then, don't you know one of your subordinates would
have to take care of the collection of dues?
Mr. Powers. Yes; and I have enough confidence in him to know
he would do his job properly.
Mr. Lynch. And there being 2,500 members, he couldn't remem-
ber each one of them personally, could he ?
Mr. Powers. The branch secretary would, possiblv.
Mr. Lynch. They all come ultimately to your office, do they not?
Mr. Powers. Oh, no: not 2,500 men.'
Mr. Lynch. I say they ultimately come to your branch, as head-
quarters ?
Mr. CoHN. May I ask thai the questioner clarify the question? It
is not clear to me. Do you mean the members come in, or the lists, or
the funds?
Mr. Lynch. The witness seems to understand.
Mr. CoHN. I am afraid he doesn't.
7448 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. He doesn't seem to have any difficulty with it. Will you
answer the question, Mr. Powers ?
INIr. Powers. What is the question?
Mr. Lynch. If a person pays his dues, the ultimate fact that he
does pay comes to your office, doesn't it?
Mr. Powers. It doesn't. The person pays his dues; it goes to the
branch secretary.
Mr. Lynch. Does the branch secretary forward the money to your
office ?
Mr. Powers. To the person in charge.
Mr. Lynch. He is in your office, is he not?
Mr. Powers. No, he is not.
Mr. Lynch. Where is his office ?
Mr. Powers. He doesn't have any office.
Mr, Lynch. Where is his home?
Mr. Powers. That I told you I wouldn't tell you, so why ask?
Mr. Lynch. I ask that he be required to answer that question,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question?
Mr. Powers. What question ?
The Chairman. The question he just asked you?
Mr. Powers. I answered him that the person in charge
Mr. Lynch. He didn't answer the question at all. I asked him
specifically the man's home address. He said he didn't have an
office and I am asking for his home address.
Mr, PoAVERS. I don't know where he lives. I can't tell you that.
Mr. Lynch. Does he ever come to your office ?
Mr. Powers. Occasionally.
Mr. Lynch. Does he bank money or do you bank the money?
Mr. Powers. There is no banking to it. The money is usually
mailed in to the national office by the person in charge.
Mr. Lynch. Mailed to the national office at what place?
Mr. Powers. New York City.
Mr. Lynch. And what address in New York City?
Mr. Powers. Well, the address of the national office is 35 East
Twelfth Street.
Mr. Lynch. And when the funds are mailed there, are they not
set forth as the dues of certain members ?
Mr. Powers. No.
Mr. Lynch. What are they sent as?
Mr. Powers. I wouldn't know. The person in charge would know
about it.
Mr. Lynch. Did your father come to this country with you?
Mr. Powers. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Was your father in this country before ?
Mr. Powers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. For how long a period of time was he here ?
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Is your father now living ?
Mr. Powers. No, he is dead.
Mr. Lynch. Your mother is dead, too ?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Were you old enough to remember your father before
he left Russia?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7449
Mr. CoHN. ]\ray I object to any further questioiimc; along this line
as being extremely personal and private and not within the province
of this committee?
Mr. Ltnch. It is very important.
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
Mr. CoHN. Do I understand my objection is overruled?
The Chairman. The witness before 3'ou made your objection said
he didn't know.
Mr. C'oHX. I ask that the answer be stricken out and I ask a ruling
from the Chair on my objection.
Mr. Thomas. Kight at that point I would like to ask counsel for
the witness a question. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
]Mr. Coiix. I am not under subpena here.
Mr. Thomas. I know that, but I want to get some information
from you.
Mr. CoHN. If you wish to question me
Mr. Thomas. Are you a member of the Communist Party ? Do you
refuse to answer the questicm?
Mr. CoHN. ]May I say to you that if you wish me to answer any
kind of questions, I am here subject to subpena if you desire to sub-
pena me. I Avish to protest against that question because of the
motivation behind it.
Mr. Thomas. I will ask the committee at this point or a little later
to subpena the counsel for the witness.
The CHAHiMAX. We will take that up.
Mr, Lynch. Mr. Powers, were you old enough to remember your
father before he left Russia?
Mr. Powers. I consider that to be a personal question and I will not
answer any personal questions.
Mr. Lynch. You refuse to answer it?
Mr. Powers. I refuse to answer any personal questions.
Mr. Lynch. Do you refuse to answer that question?
Mr. Powers. This committee has no right to go into any personal
questions.
Mr. Lynch. I ask. Mr. Chairman, that he be directed to answer it.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer the question; is that correct?
Mr. Powers. I do. I don't see that this committee has any right
to go into personal questions.
Mr. Lynch. What name did you use when you arrived in this
country ?
Mr. Powers. The name I gave here.
Mr. Lynch. What name did you use before you arrived in this
country ?
Mr. Powers. That is immaterial.
Mr. Lynch. I submit it is very material.
The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer that question.
Do you decline to do so?
Mr. Powders. I consider that immaterial to this committee.
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question?
Mr. PowT.RS. Yes.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Lynch. What name did your mother use when she entered
this country?
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
7450 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Do you know whether she used the same name that
you used ?
Mr. Powers. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Did your two brothers accompany you when you
entered this country ?
Mr. Powers. That is a personal question. I will not answer it,
Mr. Lynch. I will ask the Chair to direct him to answer it.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer. Do you refuse to
do so?
Mr. Powers. On the same ground.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Powers, at what port did you arrive in this
country ?
Mr. Powers. Sir ?
Mr. Lynch. At what port did you arrive in this country?
Mr. Powers. I don't recall that.
Mr. Lynch. You don't remember whether it was New York or
Boston
Mr. Powers. New York, I think it was.
Mr. Lynch. What?
Mr. Powers. New York.
Mr. Lynch. Have you any connections with any labor organiza-
tions at the present time ?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Which ones?
Mr. Powers. I am a member of the Steel Workers' Organizing
Committee. I have been a member of the Steel Workers' Union
since 1932.
Mr. Lynch. That is in the Pittsburgh area ?
Mr. Powers. Now in the Pittsburgh area ; at times in Baltimore.
Mr. Dempsey. Is that an organization affiliated with either the
C. I. O. or the A. F. of L. ?
Mr. Powers. At first with the A. F. of L. ; later with the C. I. O.
Mr. Dempsey. Now with the C. I. O. ?
Mr. Powers. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. What are your duties? What do you actually do as
district organizer?
Mr. Powers. Well, the same as the duties of any other secretary.
Mr. Lynch. What do you do? Tell us what you do.
Mr. Powers. I meet with the district committee, decide on plans.
For example, in the election campaign now we have candidates that
have filed. We have other ]:)roblems, the same as any organization.
Mr. Lynch. What other duties do you have besides dealing with
the district managers and committees?
Mr. Powers. I help organize the work of the party.
Mr. Lynch. Such as what ?
Mr. Powers. Such as organizing our branches, carrying on activi-
ties, such as literature sales.
Mr. Lynch. What else ?
Mr. Powers. That is about all.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, before the committee goes into execu-
tive session, I would like to ask the attorne}' for the witness a few
questions.
Mr. CoHN. Would vou like to ask them off the record?
UX-AMERIOAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7451
The CiiAiRisrAN. "We can't jxo into that now.
Mr. Thomas. They are three very sliort (juestions.
Mr. CoHN. I will be j^lad to answer them off the record, if you
wish.
The Chairman. You will have to be sworn if yon are going to
answer (juestions.
Mr. Corn. I will object to being sworn. I appear here as counsel
for this witness.
The Chairman. You do object?
Mr. CoiiN. I object to any such procedure.
The Chairman. All right ; the committee will stand adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 12:05 p. m., the committee adjourned, subject to
the call of the chairman.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
FRIDAY, MARCH 29, 1940
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investi-
gate Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The coniiiiittee met at 10:30 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Representatives Mason, Dempsey, and Voorhis.
Present also: Robert Lynch, counsel for the committee; and J. B.
Matthews, special investigator for the committee.
Present also: Leo Alpert, attorney for Mrs. Dorothy Rose Blum-
berg.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Let me an-
nounce that until the members of the committee get here, the com-
mittee is now sitting as a subcommittee. The Chair designates him-
self and the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Mason, and Mr. Dempsey,
as a subcommittee to hear the testimony.
Proceed. Mr. Matthews.
STATEMENT OF MRS. DOROTHY ROSE BLUMBERG, BALTIMORE, MD.,
MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES
(The witness was duly sworn.)
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Matthews.
Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Blumberg, will you please state your full
name for the record?
Mrs. Blumberg. Dorothy Rose Blumberg.
Mr. Matthews. "What is your address?
Mrs. Blumberg. 2533 Forest Park Avenue, Baltimore.
Mr. Matthews. Are a^ou the wife of Dr. Alfred E. Blumberg?
Mrs. Blumberg. I am.
Mr. Matthews. Is Dr. Alfred E. Blumberg the secretary for the
Communist Party for tlie district which includes Baltimore, Dela-
ware, western Maryland, and the District of Columbia?
Mrs. Blumberg. I think his correct title is State secretary of the
Communist Party of Maiyland and the District of Columbia.
^Ir. ^L\TTHEws. Is western ]Maryland included in that district?
Mrs. Blumberg. Maryland is Maryland.
Mr. ]\rATTHEws. The whole of Maryland is included?
Mrs. Blumberg. Yes.
7453
7454 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a subdivision in that district which
you designate as western Maryland?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know anything about that.
Mr. Matthews. Is Delaware or any part of Delaware included
in that district?
Mrs. Blumberg. I can only tell you what the title is. What it
includes I have no details on.
Mr. Matthews. You don't know whether Delaware or any part of
Delaware is included in the district?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. How long has Dr. Blumberg held this position?
Mrs. Blumberg. Since November 1939.
The Chairman. Pardon me ; I didn't get the name of the attorney.
You appear here as attorney?
Mr. Alpert. I am Mrs. Blumberg's private attorney. My name is
Leo Alpert.
The Chairman. And you reside where?
Mr. Albert. In Baltimore.
The Chairman. You are a practicing attorney in Baltimore ?
Mr. Albert. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Blumberg, do you have any official connec-
tion with the office which your husband administers ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Blumberg. Since December of 1939.
Mr. Matthews. Have you worked in the offices of the Communist
Party in Baltimore?
Mrs. Blumberg. I come in occasionally to do typing, a little bit
of mimeograph work, answer the telephone, when there is nobody
else there.
Mr. Matthews. You have been an unofficial assistant in your hus-
band's work?
Mrs. Blumberg. My husband asks me to come in and help him out
occasionally on the question of typing, and so forth.
Mr. Matthews. You are, therefore, are you not, acquainted with
the workings of the office?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I know very little about it.
Mr. Matthews. We will ask you specifically some questions that
have to do with it, and we will get your specific answers.
Does the Communist Party headquarters in Baltimore have any-
one else employed in an official capacity in it?
Mrs. Blumberg. Well, there is a city secretary.
Mr. Matthews. Who is the city secretary?
Mrs. Blumberg. William C. Taylor.
Mr. Matthews. Are there any others?
Mrs. Blumberg. The Communist Party; no.
Mr. Matthews. Does the Young Communist League have its head-
quarters in the same building with the Communist Party?
Mrs. Blumberg. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. In the same room?
Mrs. Blumberg. They have a room of their own.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please give us Mr. Taylor's address?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7455,
Mrs. Blujihkrg. I don't know his address, other than the head-
qnarters of the Connniinist Party.
Mr. INIattiiews. Is Mr. Taylor's ])osition as city secretary of the
Connnnnist Party in Baltimore a full-time job?
Mrs. pLi'MBEKG. I really don't know.
INIr. jMatthews. You don't know whether he has any other employ-
ment or not?
Mrs. Bluimberg. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Matthews. How long has he held that position?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't really know.
Mr. ]\Iattiiews. What, briefly, and in sketchy fashion, are his
duties as city secretary of the Communist Party of Baltimore?
JNIrs. Blumberg. I can't tell you that.
Mr. IMatthews. You don't kiiow the functions which he performs ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Mrs. Blumbero-, are yon acquainted with a Mr.
H. J. Lawler?
]VIrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever heard of Mr. H. J. Lawler?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. IMatthews. Have you ever seen any correspondence between
Mr. Lawler and your husband?
ISIrs. Blu:mberg. No.
Mv. Matthews. I show you a letter which ma}' or may not refresh
your recollection. This was turned over by you to the investigators.
Have you ever seen this particular letter, signed H. J. Lawler?
Mrs. Blujiberg. I don't remember
Mr. Alpert. Just a moment. Is this some of the material that was
taken from the office in Baltimore yesterday? If it is, we object to
that. As I understand it, it is stuff which was seized without a search
wairant.
The Chairman. You enter an objection?
Mr. Alpert. Yes.
The Chairman. To what?
]\Ir. Alpert. I enter an objection to the introduction of any of the
material that was taken from the office there yesterday. Mrs. Blum-
berg tells me that your investigators came in there yesterday witli-
out a search warrant, with a subpena which was blank, and on which
they filled her name in, and then they took all this literature and
stuff that was lying around without asking permission, and without
having any warrant to take it.
The Chairman. That is not what our investigators state. The in-
vestigators who went there reported to the committee that they ob-
tained the consent of Mrs. Blumberg to take these records, and that
she gave her consent.
Mr. Ar.PERT. Is that so?
Mrs. Blumberg. I protested originally, because, as I said. I had no
autb.ority to give them anything, and I did have no authority to
give them anything.
jNIr. Alpert. Did you tell them they could take it?
Mrs. BLi-:\rBERG. I told thom I couldn't stop them.
Mr. Alpert. We still object to that.
94931— 40— vol. 12 17
7456 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Of course, Mr. Chairman, it wouldn't make any differ-
ence, unless this witness claims it was her property, and she does not
-claim it was her property.
The Chairman. All right; objection overruled.
Mr. Alpert. Exception.
Mr. Matthews. This letter reads as follows :
T)ear Db. Blumberg : In our recent talk I neglected to point out what seems
to me to be a gap in the literature of the Party. That is, there ought to be
written by someone who has' both literary talent and the urge to integrate
^economic factors into a Socialism, a book which will be devoted to a prediction
•of exactly what would happen to the various institutions in the United States
were Socialism to be the guiding force (unfortunate that Norman Thomas has a
.Socialist Party), fact and probably figures integrated with theory, modified by
the lessons from Russia, served up in a readable form, a blue print of the future
America. That is what I would like to see. Of course this would be an effort
to "dream a little dream with me," and would be subject to much probable
•error, but wouldn't it be interesting and important as a method of convincing
the people who read of the desirability of the removal of the hierarchy of
profit?
Now, I have read the little squibs on production that Browder and Strachey
tucked into their volumes. I don't refer to anything so meager and skimpy.
Rather, something like AVest's recent volume on the Soviet, but probably in
simpler language, as befitting a volume intended for general consumption, or
perhaps the Williams book on the same subject would furnish a convenient
literary form.
Some of the questions that perhaps should be answered : Will the industries
be maintained under the present set-up and be run from above by control
* * * or will the entire superstructure of capital be immediately removed?
If so, what are the predictable consequences, and how can the adverse ones be
prevented or alleviated? Will the actual working bosses in the factories con-
tinue or will they be replaced If so, who will take their place? Aud so forth,
ad infinitum.
These questions, as you see, will require immediate solution when the Party
comes into power. Others of a long time nature, such as what will be the work
of the Planning Commission ((iod's plan of the U. S. S. R. ), and what goals will
be set, might well be taken up in great detail.
To tell the truth, I would like to have a try at writing this book myself, but
the enormous amount of research necessarily involved would take too much
time, and at least for the next two years I would not be able to attempt it.
Just what do you think of this? I am sorry I did not remember it Friday
so as to get everything out of the way, but you know the hvmian memory or the
lack of it.
Yours,
H. J. Lawi^r.
This is a letter sent from an address in Baltimore, 941 North Broad-
way, Baltimore, Md. At least, the letter was in an envelope bearing
that address.
Now, Mrs. Blumberg
Mr. Alpert. Just a moment, Mr, Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I renew
my objection to that and ask that the letter be stricken out, on the
ground I have stated, that of unlawful search and seizure, and also
because it has not been identified, and because it has no bearing on
what this witness is testifying to.
Mr. Matthews. I am going to ask the witness some questions about
the letter.
The Chairman. The objection is overruled for the time being.
Mr. Alpert. Exception.
Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Blumberg, this letter is written on stationery
which bears the watermark of the State of Georgia, official State in-
signia, with the map of the State of Georgia on it. Do you know
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7457
Avlietlier your husbaiul is or was ao(iurtiiited with someone in Georgia
who would be entitled to use the oiRcial stationery of the State of
Georo-ia^
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I don't know.
Mr. Mattheans. Do you know whether your husband has contem-
plated the writing of such a book, either by himself or in collaboration
with someone else, or in seeing someone else do it, or encouraging
someone else to do it ?
JNTrs. Blumberg. No; I can't tell you that ; I don't know,
Mr. Matthews. Has your husband ever discussed with you such a
book as the one described here?
jNIrs. BliijMbehg. No ; he never has.
The Chairman. Mrs. Blumberg, didn't the investigators request you
to ask vour husband to be here this morning ?
INIrs. Blumberg. 1 es.
The Chairman. Didn't you say you would bring him with you ?
Mi-s. Bluimberg. No ; I didn't say I would bring him wdth me. I said
I would tell him what they said.
The Chairman, You didn't tell the investigators that your husband
would accompany you this morning ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I didn't tell them that.
The Chairman. Your husband did not come this morning?
]Mrs. Blumberg. No.
The Chairman. He said he wouldn't come without a subpena?
Mrs. Blumberg. He didn't say anything.
The Chairman. He just didn't show up. All right,
ISIr, Matthews. Did you discuss the question of your husband's ap-
pearance with him ?
]\Irs, Blumberg, I simply repeated what the investigators told me.
1 said to him they said to me, ""Will you tell Dr, Blumberg to come over
tomorrow morning^" and that was all.
The Chairman. Mr. Clerk, will you now have a subpena issued
at once for Dr. Blumberg? Where is Dr. Blumberg this morning?
Mrs. Blumberg. I left him at home.
Mr. Lynch. What address, Mrs. Blumberg?
ISIrs. Blumberg. 2523 Forest Park Avenue.
]\[r, Matthews, Will you state what your husband's reply was to
the information conveyed to him?
Mrs, Blumberg, He didn't say anything specially.
Mr, Matthews. Did he say he would come ?
Mrs. Blumberg. He didn't say anything one way or the other. I
think he said, "uh-huh," or something like that.
Mr. Matthews. jSIrs. Blumberg, I show you a booklet. Have you
ever seen any book like that ?
The Chairman. Please identify it for the record.
Mr. Matthews. I am going to.
Mrs. Blumberg. It says at the top, "Comnumist Party of the
IT. S. A.," so I suppose that is what it is.
Mr. ]\lATTirEws. You have seen these books in the office?
ISfr. Alpekt. T obiect to that on the same grounds as before,
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever worked with any of these books?
Mr. Ai-peht. I take an exception to your ruling. I take it for
granted it is the same.
7458 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. But you are acquainted with the book?
Mrs. Blumberg. I have seen such a book.
Mr. Matthews. Have you got one of those books ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever have one?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. IVIatthews. Weren't you given one when you joined the Com-
munist Party in December?
Mrs. Blumberg. I was never given one.
Mr. Matthews. Why wouldn't you receive one?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know\
Mr. Mattheavs. Did you ask for one?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Was any reason given you why you were not pro-
vided with a i^arty membership book?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. You know, do you not, that is regular procedure
for party members to have a membership book ?
Mrs. Blumberg. That is possible.
Mr. Matthews. Don't you know that is the regular procedure?
Mrs. Blumberg. I have read a lot in the papers about books.
Mr. Matthews. Is that the most you know about the Communist
Party membership book, what you have read in the papers?
Mrs. Blumberg. I know my husband has one. Naturally I have
seen his.
Mr. ]\Iattheavs. This is a Communist Party membership book of
1939, and this is a Communist Party membership book of 1938. Have
you ever seen membership books of that sort ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I haven't seen that.
Mr. Matthews. You haven't seen those around the office in your
work there ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I just work on the surface, you know, typing.
Mr. Matthews. In the front of this Communist Party membership
book, Mr. Chairman, there is a detachable card, with a perforated
line, so that it is obviously meant to be torn out, and also in the
back there is a similar card.
The card in the front of the book, intended to be detached, says,
"I have received membership book," and then there appears a line
for signature, and then the following: "State, district, county, city,
section, branch, initiation stamp, line for the date," and then a nota-
tion, "Be sure to sign and return to the membership director."
Mr. Dempsey. That is a direction as to where to send it?
Mr. Matthews. That appears to be a direction.
Now, Mrs. Blumberg, who is the membership director in Balti-
more ?
Mrs. Bluiniberg. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever heard whether or not there is a
membership director for the Communist Party in Baltimore?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I have not.
Mr. Matthews. Who is the membership director of the State of
JVIaryland ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7459^
Mv. ^fATTiiEWs. Do you know any membership director in any one
of the units of the Connnunist Party?
Mrs. Blu:mhekg. No; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. The card at the back of the book, Mr. Chairman,
is entitled "Control Card: First Half of 1939, Membership Book,""
with blank spaces for data similar to that on the fii'st page.
The Chaiuman. And also the one I have is No. 108,550.
Mr. Matthews. Yes; and this one which I am introducing intO'
the record is 108,531. and these numbers appear both on the card
in the front and the back of the book.
Now, Mrs. Blumberg, haven't you known that it is the practice
for a member who receives such a book as this to detach these cards,
give them to some functionary of the Connnunist Party, who in
turn mails them to well-known addresses or headquarters of the Com-
munist Party in the United States?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know anything about that.
]\Ir. ]\Iatthews. Have you never seen your husband or anyone else
in the office mailing these cards — the one I refer to now is the one
in the front of the book — to Mr. A. W. Mills in Chicago, who is
the head of the central organization department of the Communist
Party in the United States?
INIrs. Blumberg. No.
IVlr. IMatthews. Have you never seen him or anyone else in the
office mail the card in the back of the book to the central control
commission, headed by Mr. Charles Dirba, in New York City?
]\Irs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. And you have not heard of these matters in any
respect ?
IMrs. Blumberg. No.
]Mr. IMatthews. What records of membership are kept in the
headquarters of the Communist Party in Baltimore or elsewhere in
the State of Maryland, Mrs. Blumberg?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know of any.
INlr. Matthews. Have you any knowledge that such records clo not
exist ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I have no knowledge that they do exist.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen cards described as section file-
cards? I will show you one. Have you ever seen cards similar to
that?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I never saw that.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see this strong-box in your head-
quarters— the box, I mean?
Mrs. Blumberg. The box; yes. It was sitting there. I didn't
bother it.
Mr. Matthews. You have never seen the contents of it?
^Irs. Blumberg. No.
]\[r. Matthews. There apparently are several thousand of these
cards, the section file cards, in the box.
]\Ir. Alpert. I renew my objection again and except to your luling
again.
The Chairman. In reference to all these matters?
Mr. Alpert. Yes; in reference to all tliese materials which I say
were unlawfully seized.
7460 UN-AMERICAN PR0PAC4ANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews, I will let the record show that clearly; you are
objecting to the introduction or use for any purpose, either for
examination or introduction in evidence, of all the records obtained
by our investigators at the headquarters of the Communist Party
in Baltimore?
]\Ir. Alpert. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask that one of these cards en-
titled "Section File" be incorporated in its entirety in the record.
The Chairman. Very well.
(The card referred to is as follows:)
SECTION FILE
1939 Book No. 1940 Book No.
Name Address
(Please Print)
Section Branch
City Date Joined Recruited by
Male Female Negro White Age
Country of Birth National Origin
Occupation Industry Employed
Unemployed
Are you a member of a trade union? Yes No
Is union C. I. O. A. P. of L. Independent
Name of Union Local
Are you a paid official in union? Yes No War Veteran
Are you a paid official in mass organization? Yes No
Are you a member of any of the following organizations?
Workers Alliance I. W. O. I. L. D. F. S. U.
Amer. League Tenants organization L. N. P. L.
P. T. A.
Other mass organization
Was disciplinary action ever taken against you?
Mr. Matthews. This particular section file card is a blank, and has
a blank for the 1939 yearbook number, and another for the 1940 year-
book number. There is such information requested as name, address,
section, branch, city, date joined, recruited by, male, female, Negro,
white, age, country of birth, national origin, occupation, industry,
emj^loyed, unemployed ; are you a member of a trade-union ? Yes, no ;
is union C. I. O., A. F. of L., independent. Name of union, local. Are
you a paid official in union? Yes, no; war veteran; are you a paid
official in mass organization? Yes, no. Are you a member of any
of the following organizations?
Then first there is the Workers Alliance.
Has the Workers Alliance a branch in Baltimore, Mrs. Blumberg?
Mr. Alpert. If you know.
Mrs. Blumberg. Yes ; there is.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been active in the work of the Work-
ers Alliance in Baltimore ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I never have.
Mr. Matthews. Has your husband ever been active in the work
of the Alliance in Baltimore in any respect?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Workers Alliance?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I am not.
Mr. Matthews. Another of the blanks is I. W. O. "Wliat does
I. W. O. stand for, Mrs. Blumberg?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7461
Mrs. Bta'Mberg. Iiitenuitional "Workers Order, an insurance order.
Mr. M-vmiEws. Has that in Baltimore also a branch or several
branches?
Mrs. Ri>i MBERG. Yes.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. Is that the orijanization of which Mr. William
"Weiner. or Mr. W. AVarsar, alias William Reider, is the head?
]\Irs. Blumbel'G. I don't know.
]\Ir. Matthews. Have you ever seen any literature of the Interna-
tional Workers Order?
Mrs. Bli :mbei{G. A little bit.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Do you have in the headquarters of the Communist
Party in Baltimore a list of the members of the International Work-
ers Ortler who reside in Baltimore?
Mr. Aepert. Do you know that ?
]Mrs. Bn MBERG. I never saw any.
Mr. Matthews. You never saw such a list?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Mattheavs. In a moment I want to introduce that list, Mr.
Chairman.
The next is I. L. D. What does I. L. D. stand for?
]Mrs. Blusibekg. So far as I know it is International Labor Defense.
]\Ir. Matthews. Is there a section or branch or unit of the Inter-
national Labor Defense in Baltimore?
]Mrs. Blumberg. I don't think so.
]Mr. Matthews. Do j^ou belono; to the International Labor Defense ?
Mr. Matthews' The next is F. S. U.? Wiat does F. S. U. stand'
for?
Mrs. Blumberg. That is Friends of the Soviet Union.
^Ir. Matthews. Are you a member of the Friends of the Soviet
T^nion ?
INIrs. Blumberg. Xo.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Have you ever been a member?
INIrs. Blumberg. Oh, a lon^ time ago.
Mr. Matthews. Is the organization in Baltimore, with a branch?
!Mrs. Blumberg. No ; so far as I know, it is not.
Mr. ^Matthews. The next is the Amer. League. Is that the Ameri-
can League for Peace and Democracy that is referred to there?
Mrs. Blu:mberg. I don't know.
Mr. ^Iattiiews. It wouldn't be the baseball organization, would it?
Mrs. Blumberg. You can't tell. We go to the baseball games, too.
Mr. Matthews. Were vou ever a member of the American League
for Peace and Democrac}'^?
Mrs. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chatrmax. Did vou ever hold any office in the American
Lenqriip for Peace and Democracy?
Mrs. Bi.u:vrBERG. I used to do some tvning for them, occasionally.
The Chairman. Copying at their office in Baltimore?
Mrs. Btu^tberg. Oh. venrs aero: about 4 or 5 years ago, I guess.
Tlip Chairman. Tn Baltimore?
IVfrs. Bt,umberg. T did typing.
Mr. MATTHEWS. Was vour husband an official in the American
Leacrue for Peacp and D^mocmcv in Baltimore, or of the American
League Against War and Fascism?
7462 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You will have to answer, Mrs. Blumberg. We
can't record a shake of the head.
Mrs. Blumberg. I am sorry. I don't think so.
Mr. Matthews. Was he an official of the American League Against
War and Fascism in Baltimore ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't remember.
Mr. Matthews. The next blank space is for tenants organization.
Do you know what organization that refers to ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I haven't any idea.
Mr. Matthews. The next blank is for L. N. P. L. Do you know
what those initials stand for?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I don't.
Mr. Matthews. It wouldn't be Labor's Nonpartisan League, would
it?
Mrs. Blumberg. It might.
Mr. Matthews. That is certainly a correct answer.
The next is P. T. A. Do you know what P. T. A. stands for?
Mrs. Blumberg. The only one I ever heard of would be the Parent-
Teachers Association.
Mr. Matthews. You wouldn't expect to find that on this particular
section file card, would you?
Mrs. Blumberg. You can't tell.
Mr. Matthews. Now, Mrs. Blumberg, I show you a 1939 regis-
tration card. Have you ever seen cards of that sort?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Alpert. Of course, I am objecting to that, and excepting to
the ruling.
The Chairman. I understand. The record so shows.
Mr. Matthew^s. Where does the section of which your husband is
the head keep a complete set of section file cards ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know that they have any.
Mr. Matthews. Wouldn't you surmise that if these cards are
printed and held in the office in the number of something like two or
three thousand, that they were meant to be used and put on file
somewhere ?
Mr. Alpert. She said she hasn't seen them.
Mrs. Blumberg. How should I know ?
Mr. Matthews. I am asking you if you know.
Mrs. Blumberg. And I am telling you.
Mr. Matthews. You don't know where they are kept in Baltimore ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I do not.
Mr. Mattheavs. Are you saying they are not kept in the head-
quarters of the Communist Party in Baltimore?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Alpert. She said she has noib seen them, Mr. ^Matthews.
Mr. Matthews. The 1939 i-egistration card which I hold is made
out in the name of Mildred Frayme.
The section given is 4; the branch 2.
City, Baltimore.
Date .ioinerl, 1938.
Female, white, aged 24.
Country of birth, U. S. A.
National origin, Jewish.
Occupation, clerical.
Industry, Government.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7453
Employ od.
Member of ;i trade union? Yes.
CIOV Yes.
Name of union, United Federal Workers of America.
Are you a jiaid nliicial in iniion? No.
Are you a paid ollicial in mass orf^anization? No.
Otlier mas.s organi/.ation.sV None.
Was disciplinary action ever talcen aj^ainst you? No.
Give full name of shop employed at, S. S. B.
Do 3'ou know what S. S. B. is?
Mrs. Blumbehg. No.
Mr. Alpert. I am objecting to that, and I take tlie same exception.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Matthews. Inasmuch as the industry stated here is the Gov-
ernment, that would mean the Social Security Board, would it not?
Mrs. Bli'mberg. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Mildred Frayme?
ISIrs. Blfmberg. No.
IVIr. Matthews. Do 3-ou know" her by any other name than Mildred
Frayme ?
]Mrs. Blumberg. No; I don't know her at all.
]Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Blumberg, in the documents turned over to
the investigators at the headquarters of the Communist Party in
Baltimore
Mr. Alpert. Which she denies, you understand.
Mr. Matthews. What is that?
iSIr. Alpert. Which Mrs. Blumberg denies, that they were turned
over.
Mr. Matthews. There appeared a batch of notations which was
headed "New Members" for various weeks. Most of these appear to
be current.
Do you know Joe Riley ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
]Mr. Matthews. Do you know Joe Riley by any other name than
Joe Riley ?
Mrs. Blu:mberg. No ; I don't know him.
Mr. Matthews. The notation here is "Male, white, 24, native,
student."
Does that refresh your recollection?
Mrs. Bluiniberg. Not at all.
JNIr. Matthews. The notation under that is A-1 seaman : male, white,
C.I. 0.28; native.
Do you know Norah Morton?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Employed, female, white, native, 25 ; off.
Alice Adams; do you know her?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Martin Luther?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; he was before my time.
Mr. Matthews. This particular Martin Luther here apparently
joined the Conununist Party in Baltimore the week ending February
23, wliich is still in your time, isn't it, Mrs. Blumberg?
Mrs. Blumberg. Yes; that is.
JVIr. ^Matthews. Do you know this particular Martin Luther?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
7464 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. You don't know whether that is a party name for
someone whose real name is something else?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. You know, don't you, Mrs. Blumberg, that it is
quite customary for members of the Communist Party to use a party
name which differs from their real name?
Mrs. Blumberg. Is it ?
Mr. Matthews. Do you not know that?
Mrs. Blumberg. I have seen it in the papers.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever have any other contact with that
information ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Mattheavs. Is your own membership in the Communist Party
under your own name?
Mrs. Blumberg. I simply told my husband that I was joining the
Communist Party, and that was all. He said, "O. K., I will take care
of it."
Mr. Matthews. You have seen his committee membership book; in
what name is it made out?
Mrs. Blumberg. Albert E. Blumberg.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Lillian Colston ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Peter Simpson ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Listed as a nt.tive, student, age 24?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Here is a membership card also headed "New mem-
ber," without a name attached ; male, 29 ; professor, C. I. O. ; native and
employed.
Do you know what professor that is ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I haven't any idea.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know any of the members of the Communist
Party in Baltimore besides yourself who work in the office?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever attended branch meetings of the
Communist Party?
IVIrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. You have never been at branch meetings of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been to a party meeting of any kind ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I go to the public meetings, the way anybody else
does.
Mr. Matthews. But to a closed party meeting, you have never been?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know any single individual who is a mem-
ber of the Communist Party other than your husband and those who
work in the office with you?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I do not.
Mr, Matthews. Perhaps some of these individuals work in the
office. Do you knoAv John Matthews ?
Mrs. Blumberg. That is you, isn't it ?
Mr. Matthews. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 74G5
Mrp. Blumberg. Then I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. Who is also listed as a student, a new member,
for week endinfj February 16.
Do you know Patrick Burke?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. A steel worker ; age 45.
Do you know Ann McHenry?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. There follows a list of eight new members who
ai)pear to be anonymous, and fiye more without names, just the per-
sonal descriptions being giyen, and four more without the names
giyen.
Do you know Douglas Bannister?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Male, Negro, 1801 Eagle Street; place of employ-
ment, public school.
Do you know any local school teacher or any employee at a public
school that might be a member of the party ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I do not.
Mr. ]Matthews. You haye stated you do not know any members
of the Communist Party, but you may know some of these persons
but not as members of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know that one.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Edward Cooper ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Negro, age 22
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. William Hill?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Negro, age 25,
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Wallace Hill, Jr., Negro, age 22 ?
Mrs. Bll'mberg. No.
Mr. jNIatthews. Grant Burley, Negro, age 42 ?
Mrs. Blt^mberg. No.
Mr. ]Matthews. William Christian, Negro, age 22 ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. These six members, according to this notation, were
assigned to the Frederick Douglas Branch of the Communist Party
in Baltimore. How many branches of the Communist Party aie
there in Baltimore, Mrs. Blumberg?
Mrs. Blumberg. I don't know.
]\Ir. Alpert. Just a moment. It is understood my objection covers
all this?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Alpert. Just to be sure.
The Chairman. We will see that the record is clear on that.
Mr. Matthews. Here is a list of names entitled "Leading mem-
bers," with the notation :
Following is a list of the most active members of the order in Baltimore.
This list may be used to call special meetings which are intended to include
leading members of tlie brancli(\s who may not be members of the city central
committee. It includes members of the branch executive committee and mem-
bers of special committees —
7466 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and so forth. At the top in pencil are the letters "I. W. O."
This is a list of the International Workers Order to which I re-
ferred a moment ago.
Ml'. Alpert. May I renew my objection on that, and take my excep-
tion?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Have yon ever seen this list ?
Mrs. Blumberg. No ; I have never seen this list.
Mr. Matthews. Do yon know a Mr. S. Friedman, whose name
appears on this list?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Who may or may not be a doctor in Baltimore?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Mattheavs. Will yon please tell me if you recognize any of
the names on that list?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize any of those names?
Mrs. Bluiniberg. No ; these names mean nothing to me.
Mr. JNIatthews. Do you recognize any of the names on this page?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. You haven't had time to look at them.
Mrs. Blumberg. I am looking now. No ; I don't know any of these
people.
Mr. Matthews. Or on this page ?
Mrs. Blumberg. These names mean nothing to me.
Mr. Matthews. These are given as Washington, D. C, members
of the district committee.
Edward Sherman, as secretary of the Washington — something or
other. I am sorry I can't make it out. Then, Irving Zapel. Do
you know them?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Joel Weinstein?
Mrs. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Allen Malakoff?
Mrs. Blumberg. No; I don't know any of them.
Mr. Matthews. And there is a list of out of town contacts in
various places in Maryland.
Mr. Chairman, I ask the pleasure of the committee as to the
introduction of this list of names of members of the International
Workers Order in the record.
The Chairman. Well, not at this time. We will hold that for
the time being.
Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Blumberg. are you acquainted
The Chairman. Let me see that list.
The following is a list of the most active members of the Order in Baltimore.
This list may be used to call special meetings which are intended to include
leading members of the Branches who may not be members of the City Central
Committee. It includes members of the branch executive committee and mem-
bers of special committees.
Do you know, Mrs. Blumberg, whether or not the International
Workers Order has any branch meetings?
Mrs. Blumberg. The International Workers Order?
The Chairman. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7467
]\frs, Bli'mrkhg. Yes; they do.
The CiiAimiAX. Do they have iiieetiiio^s that they call branch
meetings, similar to the Communist Party?
Mrs. Blu^ibekg. They have nothino- in common with the Com-
innnist Party, so far as I know.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. I asked do they have any
branch meetings, designated branch meetings, or unit meetings,
similar to the Connnunist Party?
Mrs. Blu:mberg. They have various grouj^s acting together, getting
commission for meetings.
The Chairman. Well, do they call them branch groups, or are they
divided into branches, if you know. The point I am trying to clear
up is simply this : Whether this list is a purported list of the mem-
bers of the International Workers Order, or members of this party?
Mrs. Blumberg. It says members of the International Order, I
think that is what it is. I have never seen any list of Communist
Part}^ members.
The Chairman. It doesn't say that. It says this :
The following is a list of the most active members of the Order in Baltimore.
Mrs. Blttmberg. Well, that is the International Workers Order.
The Chairman. It is not designated here as the International
Workers Order, as far as I can see. It says :
This list may be used to call special meetings which are intended to include
leading members of branches who may not be members of the City Central
Committee.
Mrs. Blumberg. Yes; there is an English branch-
The Chairman. In the International Workers Order?
Mrs. Blumberg. In the International Workers Order; yes.
The Chairman. Then, do they have an Italian branch and a Negro
branch ?
Mrs. Blumberg. I suppose so; I don't know. I don't know very
much about it.
The Chairman. And it says further:
— who may not be members of the City Central Committee.
Does the International Workers Order have a city central com-
mittee in Baltimore?
Mrs. Blumberg. So far as I know they have a city functioning
committee, yes; like any other organization, as a board of directors,
or something like that.
The Chairman. Does it have branch executive committees?
Mrs. Blumberg. I suppose so; I don't know.
The Chairjvian. Do you know?
]\Irs. Blumberg. I don't know. I am not very well acquainted
with it.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Matthews. For the moment I would like to put another wit-
ness on the stand, if the committee will permit.
The Chairman. Will you please step aside for a few minutes, Mrs.
Blumberg?
(Witness temporarily excused.)
7468 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
STATEMENT OF EMMET LEONARD MURRAY, WASHINGTON, D. C.
(The witness was duly sworn.)
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Murray, will you please state your full nama
for the record?
Mr. Murray. Emmet Leonard Murray.
Mr. Matthews. What is your address?
Mr. Murray. 3716 Jennifer Street, Washington.
Mr. Matthews. Where are you employed?
Mr. Murray. Government Printing Office.
The Chairman. What was your answer to the last question?
Mr. Murray. Government Printing Office.
The Chairman. What do you do down there?
Mr. Murray. Assistant messenger.
The Chairman. Assistant messenger at the Government Printing
Office?
Mr. Murray. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are you listed there as a skilled laborer?
Mr. Murray. As a skilled laborer; that is what they are called;
yes, sir.
The Chairman. At 66 cents an hour ; that is the classification ?
Mr. Murray. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Murray, are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Murray. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Murray. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, among the papers obtained from
the headquarters of the Communist Party in Baltimore are several
which appear once to have been sealed in accordance with the system
which has been testified to here by frequent witnesses of delivering
important messages by courier from one headquarters of the Com-
munist Party to another.
In one of these envelopes, under date of March 22, 1940, there
appears the following memorandum, dispatched from one person,
who is named here, to another.
First, how long have you been in Washington, Mr. Murray?
Mr. Murray. Almost a year.
Mr. Matthews. Where do you come from?
Mr. Murray. Denver, Colo.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Carl Campbell in Denver?
Mr. Murray. No; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear of Carl Campbell ?
Mr. Murray. No ; I don't believe I have.
Mr. Matthews. This communication is signed by Carl Campbell,
addressed to "Dear Henry," and reads as follows:
This letter will transfer out of our District a comrade who was very active
here, but has been away for some time. His book number is 1778, but I am
not sure he has his old book with him. He owes us 75 cents for last year's
dues, which we will collect. We will use this money to buy stamps and then
will cancel them. You can start him out with January, 1040.
This comrade now lives in Washington, D. C, and I don't think it advisable
to write instructions to him. Therefore in this particular case I will give
you his name and address ; Emmet Murray, 3716 Jenifer Street, Northwest,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7469
Washington, D. C. Please see that the proper people get in touch with him
at once. You can give them this letter so that he will know they are all right,
or at least give them my name. This should also serve as credentials for
bringing him into the I'arty in case you think that advisahle.
Signed : Carl Campbell.
And we will introduce evidence to show that Carl Campbell is the
secretary of the Communist Party in Denver, Colo.
The Chairman. AVhat have you to say to that?
INIr. ^luKRAY. That was a membership in the Young Communist
League in Denver.
The Chairman. In the Young Communist League?
Mr. Murray. Which is a separate organization, a separate set-up,
so far as I understood when I joined it.
The Chairman. You said you didn't know who this Campbell was.
Mr. Murray. Xo; I don't know who he is. It may be some name
he uses.
The Chairman. You, in other words, are a member of the Young
Conununist League?
Mr. ]^IuRRAY. Yes.
The Chairman. You have been a member how long?
Mr. Murray. Oh, let's see; I have been here a year — it has been
about 2 years now. In Denver I was a member about a year.
The Chairman. How old are you?
Mr. Murray. Twenty-five.
The Chairman. Where were you born ?
Mr. Murray. Denver, Colo.
The Chairman. You say you are a member of the Young Com-
munist League. Have you ever applied for achiiission to the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Murray. No.
Mr. Matthews. Have the "proper people," so designated here,
gotten in touch with you yet?
Mr. Murray. No; they have not.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. They haven't gotten in touch with you yet?
Mr. Murray. No.
Mr. Matihew^s. That is all I have.
The Chairman. ^Mio in the Government Printing Office besides
yourself that you know of are members of the Young Communist
League ?
]\Ir. Murray. None that I know of there.
The Chairman. You have had no contacts with anyone in the Gov-
ernment Printing Office?
Mr. Murray. No.
The Chairman. ^Yho represented to you either as a member of the
Young Communist League or of the Communist Party ?
Mv. Murray. That is right; no one.
The Chairman. Did j'ou have anything to do with the distribution,
issuance or distribution, of Communist literature in the branch of the
Communist Party in the Government Printing Office?
Mr. Murray. No; I haven't. I haven't taken any activity here at
all in Washington.
The Chairman. Did you ever see any of the leaflets that were desig-
nated
Mr. ^Iatthews. Here is one.
7470 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Designated "Government Printing Office worker,
January 1939."
Mr. Murray. That was before I came here. I have never seen any
of these, anyway.
The Chairman. Since you have been here have you seen any of these
papers ?
Mr. Murray. I have never seen any literature, nothing to do with
the Printing Office at alL A few months ago I signed the notice sent
around to the Government Printing Office saying any employee who
was a member of a subversive organization would be released from
Government employment. I signed that unreservedly, since I w^as not
a member of the Young Communist League, since I had not joined
since then, and I signed it because I do believe in the ideals of Amer-
ican democracy.
Mr. Matthews. Have you resigned from the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. Murray. I haven't tendered my resignation. I just was not
active; I ceased activity.
Mr. Matthews. Have you received any notification of your being
dropped ?
Mr. Murray. No ; but I imagine they will get hold of me, especially
as they see it in the papers now. I imagine they will crack down.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Murray, how long did you say you were a
member of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Murray. In Denver, about a year.
Mr. Matthews. About a year?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. What, briefly, is the connection between the Young
Communist League and the Communist Party ?
Mr. Murray. I was told, of course, they were entirely separate
units; that is, they w^ere people who were in the leadership of the
Young Communist League who may have been party members. When
I joined I strictly told them I did not want to become a Communist.
I was out of work, I didn't know what to do, so I joined up, and I
asked them, I said, "I don't want to take part in any Communist Party
activities." Of course, I didn't know much about it, and I just
joined up.
The Chairman. Were you a student in Denver ?
Mr. Murray. No.
Mr. Matthews. That was not your home ?
Mr. Murray. Yes ; but I was not going to school.
Mr. Matthews. Is the Young Communist League an affiliated body
of the Communist International ?
Mr. Murray. I don't know whether they are affiliated or not.
Mr. Matthews. Would you call it a section ?
Mr. Murray. I don't know what they call it there. We don't have
much so-called leadership back there like they do here in the East.
Here in the East they have big organizations ; back there we don't.
Mr. Matthews. They told you the main leadership of the Young
Communist League was in the East ?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. But they did teach you that the Young Communist
League had some organic connection wdth the Communist Interna-
tional ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7471
;Mr. Murray. Yes ; witli the Y. C. I.
Mr. Matthews. The Young- Communist International, and the
Y'ouno- C^onnnunist International, in turn, is also affiliated with the
Communist International i
Mv. Murray. I don't know.
Mr. jSIattiiews. There has been evidence introduced here to show
there is that ora'anic coimection, and that at the Cong-ress of the Com-
munist International the Young Connnunist International is entitled
to delegates. On the executive committee of the Communist Interna-
tional there sits a representative of the Young Communist League of
the United States. Do you know that ?
Mr. Murray. No. I knew they sent delegates, so-called fraternal
delegates, as I understood.
Mr. Matthews. In the course of your year's membership in the
Young Communist League in Denver, you did discover there was a
A^ery close relationshi]) between the Communist Party and the Young
■Communist League, did you not ?
]\Ir. JNIurray. Yes; those people would come around and give us
talks.
Mr. Matthews. Instructions which were meant for members of the
•Communist Party as to the positions which they should take on vari-
ous questions were equally available to members of the Young Com-
munist League ; is that not correct ?
]Mr. Murray. I imagine. I didn't see any of the written documents
■or anything.
]Mr. ]\Iatthews. Just what was the period of your membership in
the Denver league ? Do you remember the month ?
Mr. Murray. It would be from about December 1938 until March,
■when I came here.
The Chairman. Now^, young man, how old are you ?
Mr. Murray. Twenty-five.
The Chairman. That made you 23 when you joined?
]Mr. Murray. Yes; about.
The Chairman. You were 23 years of age. Were you a graduate
<of high school ?
Mr. IMuRRAY. Yes. North Denver High.
The Chairman. Where?
Mr. jNIurray. North Denver High School.
The Chairman. Were you employed after you were a graduate of
the high school?
Mr. iSIuKRAY. I worked for about a year as a porter in the Denver
Dry Goods.
The Chairman. In a garage there ?
Mr. Murray. No ; Denver Dry Goods, a department store.
The Chairman. Then did you become unemployed?
Mv. Murray. Yes.
The Chairman. How long were you unemployed?
Mr. Murray. From January 1938 until the present time, when I
^ot this Government Printing Office job.
The Chairman. From January 1938 until
Mr. ^Murray. March or April of 1939.
The Chairman. A period of 3 years ?
Mr. INIuRRAY. No ; a year and 3 months.
94931—40 — vol. 12 18
7472 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. That is riglit. "W^io approached you to join the
young Communist League ?
]\Ir. Murray. It was through a Y. C. L. person in the North High.
The Chairman. Through who ?
Mr. Murray. Through a Y. C. L. in the North Denver High
SchooL
The Chairman. A member who was in the high school?
Mr. Murray. Yes ; 1 had seen him often down there.
The Chairman. Was he on the faculty, or the student body?
Mr. Murray. The student body.
The Chairman. What was his name ?
Mr. MuRR:\Y. It was Henderson; Alec Henderson.
The Chairman, How old was he, approximately ?
Mr. Murray. I don't know ; about my age, or maybe a little older.
The Chairman. What did he say to you as the reason you should
join ?
Mr. Murray. Well, he talked over things that were not interesting^
me much, about unemployment and organizing the mass industries,
and so on, but when he talked about — I am interested in political
science, and when he talked from that angle I thought I would join
and see what it was all about.
He said the dues were not much, and we would have a lot of fun.
The Chairman. You would have a lot of fun ?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you have a lot of fun while you were in it?
Mr. Murray. Oh, I had a little bit. They didn't do much. I was
kind of disappointed. They kept saying they were going to do big
things, and then those things would peter out.
The Chairman. What did they teach you at the meetings?
Mr. Murray. At most of them we just talked about unemploy-
ment, and there were discussions, discussions of all political
The Chairman. What about the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Murray. They sort of soft-pedaled that at that time, because
the Soviet Union was having these purges. The fellows didn't seem
to know what it was all about, and they said they had better not talk
about it until they found out.
The Chairman. They said they had not gotten an explanation?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
The Chairman. And they were waiting for some explanation with
reference to the purges ?
Mr. Murray. Yes; they said the boys were not very clear on that..
Mr. Dempsey. What do you mean by the purges ?
Mr. Murray. When they had those trials in Moscow about that-
time, I believe it was.
Mr. Dempsey. Which resulted in a lot of deaths ?
Mr. Murray. I guess. That is what the papers said ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. So they decided the best thing to do was to soft-
pedal about the Soviet Union until such time as that cleared up?
Mr. Murray. Yes; that is what they told me when I asked ques-
tions about it.
The Chairman. Didn't they ]iicture to you and the other members
that the Soviet Union was the ideal form of government.
Mr. Murray. Oh, they said everything was O. K. over there; it
was just they did not understand what was going on.
■*^
UX-AMKRICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7473
The Chaikmax. They said evervthiiiji- was O. K., but they didn't
:understand what Avas going on?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
The CiiAiR.AiAX. Did they say the ultimate aim was to establish a
Government in the United States like that of the Soviet Union?
Mr. Murray. No; they didn't stress that. At that time the policy
was just to support democracy in this country, spread democracy in
this country to the so-called working classes.
The Chairman. Working classes. But how would they refer to
it ? What kind of a government did they say they wanted to estab-
lish?
Mr. ^Murray. Well, at that time the thing they seemed to stress
all the time was America; that is, to keep America as it was, as a
democracy, and spread it. They didn't talk a good deal about
socialism in America.
The Chairman. They didn't ?
Mr. Murray. No. I asked them in connection with that, and they
:said they would wait and see how developments w^ere going.
The Chairman. They said they would wait for developments?
Mr. ISluRRAY. Yes. What I understood them to mean was they
^'ould try to get something possibly other than socialism here. I
<lidn't attend enough of the meetings to really get into that.
The Chairman. Did you have any lecturers who talked to groups
;there? Did you have any Communists lecture to the group?
Mr. Murray. Yes; there was Bill Dietrich, who came dow^n twice.
The Chairman. Bill who?
Mr. Murray. Dietrich.
The Chairman. How do you spell Dietrich?
Mr. Murray. D-i-e-t-r-i-c-h.
The Chairman. Where did he come from?
Mr. Murray. Denver. He runs a book store there.
The Chairman. Is he a known Communist there?
ISIr. ^Murray. Yes.
The Chairman. He lectured to your group twice?
Mr. Murray. Twice; yes.
The Chairman. What did he lecture on?
Mr. ]\IuRRAY. One was on some sort of unemployment administra-
tion they were holding there, and he came down and told us all the
Tamifications of unemployment, and so on; the other one, he came to
us and talked about peace in the international situation; just a gen-
eral talk.
The Chairman. Did any other Communist lecture to your group
"vvhile you were active there?
^Ir. ^luRRAY. Xot while I attended.
The Chairman. Who else spoke?
Mr. ^Murray. We spoke among ourselves. I forget the name. I
think his name was Bud Tanner, who was at the head.
The Chairman. You had no job during that period?
Mr. Murray. I was w-orking just occasionally at the Denver Dry
•Goods. They would call me back for a couple of days a week. I
I worked possibly a month out of tJie whole year, 30 days.
The Chairman. Where does Henderson work?
Mv. ^luRRAY. He came in and introduced me to this group there.
Z saw him at a couple of the meetings and didn't see him any more.
7474 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Did they approach you to join the Communist
Party at any time?
Mr, Murray. No. They occasionally would talk about — other
members would talk about going to meetings, but I never attended
any of the party meetings.
The Chairman. You never attended any of the party meetings, but
other members of your gi^oup did attend the party meetings?
Mr. Murray. They evidently did, from what I heard them talk.
The Chairman. You were in the Young Communist League about
a year?
Mr. Murray. That is right; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then you left Denver?
]\Ir. Murray. That is right.
The Chairman. You got a job here in Washington ?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
The Chairman. And you came to Washington. Did you notify
anyone in the Young Communist League you were coming to Wash-
ington ?
Mr. Murray. No, sir; except the Denver people knew I was com-
ing here.
The Chairman. The Denver people knew you were coming here.
How did they know you were coming here ?
Mr. Murray. Just that I had a job in Washington. They thought
it was swell.
The Chairman. Did you know they were communicating with
anyone in the Communist Party about your removal to Washington ?
Mr. Murray. No; but I imagined they would. I didn't know
whether they would do it or not. I didn't particularly care, since I
was working here and had something to do. I didn't pay much at-
tention to it.
The Chairman. When you came to Washington, were you at any
time contacted by anyone representing himself as connected with
the Communist Party or the Young Communist League ?
Mr. Murray. No; I haven't been yet.
The Chairman. There is a Young Communist League here in
Washington, isn't there?
Mr. Murray. I suppose so ; I don't know.
The Chairman. But you never were contacted ?
Mr. Murray. No.
The Chairman. No one ever approached you on the subject from
the time you came to Washington until the present moment?
Mr. Murray. Not at all.
The Chairman. And you have not ])aid any dues in the Young
Communist League since you came to Washington ?
Mr. Murray. No. A fellow in Denver wrote me; the one I men-
tioned, Bud Tanner. He asked me if I wanted to keep up my dues
back there and I said "no," I didn't care to.
Mr. Mason. I would like to know whether it was someone in
the Young Communist League that made your contact, so that you
got your present position ?
Mr. jNIurray. You mean in the Government Printing Office?
Mr. Mason. Yes.
Mr. Murray. No ; I just took a civil-service examination in Octo-
ber 1938.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7475
Mr. ]\Iasox. In Denver?
Mr. Murray. Yes; in Denver.
Mr. jSIatthews. Were you a member of the American Youth
Coniinvss in Denver?
Mr. ^Ii i;ray. Xo.
Mr. Matthews. Did yon ever take any college work after your
graduation ?
Mr. Murray. Xot until I came here.
]\Ir. Matthews. Did you belong to the American Student Union
in the North Denver High School?
Mr. Murray. No, They held one meeting, I think, under the
auspices of that. I don't know what group it was.
Mr. Matthews. Did tlie Young Connnunist League exercise some
supervision over the general life and activity of its members in
Denver, Mr. Murray?
Mr. ^Murray. No ; they talked about being supposed to do that.
Mr. Matthews. They call that discipline, don't they?
Mr. Murray. No; there they talked more on the social plane;
tliat if we had activities, people would be interested in it.
]\Ir. ]\Iatthews. I have here a memorandum which may suggest
similar occurrences in Denver. This is a memorandum from the
files of the Communist Party headquarters in Baltimore, and has to
do with a member of the Young Communist League. The memo-
randum reads in part as follows :
The Regional Committee of Slai'j'land and Washington, D. C, at its meeting
on November 3rd, voted to sharply censure .Joan Davis and proposed that
she be removed from the post of Regional Administrative Secretary. It was
recommended that Joan not be assigned to any leading position in the Young
Communist League until such a time as she has proven through study and
contact with working class youth to have mastered the fundamental under-
standing of the meaning of Trotskyism.
About October .5th .loan's brother came to Baltimore while on a tour for
a Trotskyite organization. While in town he was cordially received by .Toan
and Roy. They had diimer with him in a restaurant. At the dinner table
careless remarks were passed by .Joan and Roy, which could only serve the
intrigues of the Trotskyites. Attention was called to the incorrectness of such
a friendly attitude even though he be a brother. Nevertheless he was invited
to stay overnight in .Joan's home.
Did the Young Communist League in Denver exercise that kind
of supervision over its members?
]\Ir. Murray. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you think that was because it was not near
enough to the East?
Mr. IVIuRRAY. That is what they said.
Mr. ]SL\tthews. They have to be a lot more lax in discipline?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. ^Matthews. Did they try to teach you Avhat Trotskyism was?
Mr. ]\IURRAY. No.
Mr. ]\L\tthews. Did you master the meaning of Trotskyism?
]Mr. Murray. No.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, it is nearly 12 o'clock and the com-
mittee has a resolution to be taken up promptly at tlie convening
of the House. I don't know how long it will take. We have Mr.
Lawry who wants to be heard, that is. Congressman Dunn wants Mr.
LaAvry to be heard. His name was mentioned in connection with the
testimony given by Mr. Dolsen. We want to hear him as quickly
7476 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
as we can, but we will have to adjourn for the time being, subject
to the call of the Chair, and I don't know just when we can meet.
We will, however, adjourn, subject to the call of the Chair.
Mr, Mason. With the understanding that it will be as early this,
afternoon as possible ?
The Chairman. Yes. The people under subpena will keep in con-
tact with the committee office upstairs, and we will notify them of
the exact time we will resume our session.
The committee stands adjourned.
(Thereupon, at 11 :55 a. m., the committee adjourned, subject to-
the call of the chairman.
AFTER RECESS
(The committee reconvened at 1 p. m., pursuant to the taking of
the recess. )
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Is Mr. Lawrjr
here ?
STATEMENT OF RICHARD H. LAWRY, WEST HOMESTEAD, PA.,
PRESIDENT, PITTSBURGH DISTRICT INTERNATIONAL WORKERS.
ORDER
(The witness was duly sworn.)
Tlie Chairman. Proceed. Mr. Lynch.
Mr. Lynch. Will you give your full name, please?
Mr. Lawry. Richard H. Lawry.
The Chairman. Have you the transcript, Mr. Lynch?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Of what was actually said?
Mr. Lynch. Yes. The question was, of Mr. Dolsen, "Mr. DolseUy
do you know Richard R. Lawry?"
That is spelled L-a-u-r-y. It should be "w", should it not?
Mr. Lawry. Richard H.
Mr. Lynch. Richard H. is correct?
Mr. Lawry. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. He said; "I do; yes, sir."
The next question was: "He is a former burgess of Homestead?
Mr. Dolsen. West Homestead.
Mr. Barker. West Homestead?
Mr. DoLvSEN. Yes.
Mr. Barker. He is president of the International Workers Order, Pittsburgh.
District?
Mr. Dolsen. Tliat is right.
Mr. Barker. And he is a Communist too, is he not?
Mr. Dolsen. He certainly is not.
Mr. Barker. He is not a Communist?
Mr. Dolsen. No.
That is the end of it, so far as this witness is concerned.
The Chairman. Will you ask the witness some questions so he>
can develop his position?
Mr. Lawry. I would like to make a statement
The Chairman. We have had a rule of confining the procedure to
questions and answers. We will bring it out.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Dempsey also asked a question of the witness
later on in the testimony, as follows:
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7477
Mr. Ui:mpsk\'. Wliut became of IMr. Lawry?
Mr. I>OLSEN. What became of Mr. Lawry V
Mr. Dempsey. Yes.
Mr. Doi.sEX. He was appointeil at the solicitation of the Democratic or-
ganization in Pittshnrsh to be censns director of the city of Pittsburgh.
Mr. Dk.mi'.sky. He is in charge of tlie district as census director?
Mr. DoLSEN. Yes; he is in cliarge of the district as census director.
Mr. Lawn', are you the census director of the Pittsburoh area?
Mr. Lawry. I wa.s the supervisor of the third and fourth districts,
I'ennsylvania.
Mr. Lynch. When were you appointed?
Mr. Lawry. When?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lawry. December 18, is when I became
]\Ir. Lynch. 1939?
Mr. Lawry. 1939.
Mr. Lynch. You still hold that position?
]\Ir. Lawry. I was suspended from my position.
]\Ir. Lynch. When?
Mr. Laavry. One day this week, about Tuesday of this week.
Mr. Lynch. As the result of this evidence ?
Mr. Lawry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Were you appointed at the solicitation of the Demo-
cratic organization?
Mr. Lawp.y. I was not.
Mr. Lynch. Were you burgess of West Homestead?
Mr. Lawry. I was.
Mr. Lynch. When?
Mr. Lawry. From 1934 to 1938. I have held office for 18 years,
other positions.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know Mr. Dolsen ?
Mr. Lawry. I do.
Mr. Lynch. How long have you known him?
Mr. Lawry. I knew him as the secretary, I believe, of the Workers
Alliance.
Mr. Lynch. Workers Alliance?
Mr. Lawry. Yes. He held some position in it; I beieve it was
secretary. I spoke before them many times.
Mr. Lynch. What is the Workers Alliance?
Mr. Lav.'ry. An organization of, I believe, unemployed, and those
Avho work on W. P. A.
Mr. Lynch. What years were you speaking before the W^orkers
Alliance ?
Mr. Lawry. Well, ever since their inception. Before that I think
it was the Unemployed Council, or something. I spoke before them.
Mr. Lynch. And it was in that connection that you met Mr.
Dolsen?
]\Ir. Lawry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Have you had any other contact with him except
that?
Mr. Lawry. Xever.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever see him at any of the meetings?
Mr. Lawry. Not to my loiowledge; no.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever speak to any organization of which he
is a member or connected with?
7478 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lawrt. I don't know of any other organization that he is a.
member of except the International Workers Order, of which I mn.
the district president.
Mr. Lynch. International Workers Order?
Mr. La WRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Of which yon are president ?
Mr. Lawry. District president.
Mr. Lynch. And what is the International Workers Order ?
Mr. Lawry. A fraternal benefit society, serving labor with sick and
death benefits.
Mr. Lynch. Do they have regular insurance policies?
Mr. Lawry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know that Dolsen is a member of that same
organization ?
Mr. Lawry. I do.
Mr. Lynch. Would you be the one who would have charge of trans-
ferring the beneficiary under his policy ?
Mr. Lawry. No; I am just the district president. We don't have
anything to do with the operation of the insurance at all. They do
that all in New York.
Mr. Dempsey. What does the district president have to do with ?
Mr. Lawry. We are the contact between the branches or lodges and
the national office, kind of a coordinating group. There is just myself
and a ^^outli director there in the employ, and one girl in the office.
Mr. Lynch. You say you are the district president of the Inter-
national Workers Order?
Mr. Lawry. That is right. For 4 years I have been elected. I am
not appointed ; I am elected by the delegates.
Mr. Lynch. About 3 years ago did you attempt to have a meeting
in the town of Jeannette, Pa. ?
Mr. Lawry. Two years? I believe it would be about 2 years.
Mr. Lynch. Were you permitted to hold a meeting ?
Mr. Lawry. I don't know anything about that. I know there were
arrangements made to have Mr. Allen and ISIr. Dunn and Father Cox
and another man, the head of the mine workers union, speak at a dis-
trict meeting there.
Mr. Dempsey. Was the man from the head of the United Mine
Workers, Frank Hughes?
Mr. Lawry. Yes.
Mr. Dempsey. Did he refuse to speak?
IVIr. Lawry. No; he did not.
Mr. Dempsey. Because it was a communistic group?
Mr. Lawry. No; he did not. He agreed to speak; I went to his
office.
Mr. Dempsey. Did Mr. Allen refuse to speak ?
Mr. Lawry. Who?
Mr. Dempsey. Congressman Allen.
Mr. Lawry. He did not.
]Mr. Dempsey. He did not?
Mr. Lawry. I didn't talk with him, but another man got the infor-
mation.
jNIr. Dempsey. Were you arranging the meeting?
Mr. Lawry. I was district manager, and I went there to see the
mayor, who agreed to speak.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7479
Mr. DfiMrsEY. Did tlie mayor permit the meetiiio' to be held?
Mr. Lawrt. I iindorstund he called the meeting off.
]\rr. Dempsey. Why?
Mr. L vwRY. I understand he said it was a Communist organization.
JNIr. Dempsey. There is no doubt about it, is there?
Mr. Lawky. There is in my mind, of course. I am the district
president, and I am certainly not a Communist?
Mr. Lyxch. Do you know jNIax Bedacht?
Mr. Lawry. I do.
Mr. Lyxch. Is he a Communist?
]Mr. Lawry. I have read it in the papers.. I have never asked him
personally.
Mr. Lynch. Have you ever talked to him ?
]Mr. Lawry. I have.
Mr. Lynch. Don't you know from his statement he is a member of
the Connnunist Party; that he is a Connnunist?
Mr. Lawry. I understand so from the newspapers.
Mr. Lynch. He is a member of the Central Committee?
Mr. Lawry. I don't know about that.
Mr. Lynch. You know he is general secretary of the International
AVorkers Order, do you not ?
Mr. Lawry. That is right.
Air. Lynch. Do you know William Weiner?
Mr. Lawry. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. He is national chairman of it?
Mr. Lawry. National president.
jNIr. Lynch. You know he is an admitted Communist, don't you?
Mr. Lawry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know William Z. Foster ?
Mr. Lawry. I don't know him.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know of him by name?
]Mr. Lawry. I do by name ; yes.
Mr. Lynch. Who is he ?
Mr. Lawry, In 1919, when I was interested in the organization of
the steel workers, he was leading the union at that time in the Pitts-
burgh district.
Mr. Dempsey. Is he a Communist?
Mr. Lawry. I understand so from the newspapers.
Mr. Lynch. You know he is national chairman of the Communist
Party, don't you ?
Mr. Lawry. I wouldn't say I do know it.
Mr. Lynch. Don't you know that as a matter of public knowledge?
Mr. Dunn (Congressman from Pennsylvania). I don't so under-
stand it.
Tlie Chairman. You are not on the stand, Mr. Dunn.
JSIr. Dunn. May I interrupt ?
Tlie Chahjman. No, Mr. Dunn ; you are not testifying.
ISIr. Dunn. I know, but my name has been brought in before the
connnittee.
The Chairman. I don't understand that it has.
Mr. Dunn. Yes; tlie gentleman didn't even read it. My name was
brought in here in the papers the other day.
The Chairman. Your name was not brought in in the course of
any of this committee's investigation.
7480 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Dunn-. Yes, it was, by Mr. Barker or somebody, when I asked
to speak in behalf of Mr. Lawry, because there was a misstatement
made.
Mr. Dempsey. I suggest we proceed in order here.
The Chairman. If you want to testify about anything, Mr. Dunn,
we will have to put you under oath.
Mr. Dunn. All right. There; I raise my hand. I am willing to
testify, glad to have the op])ortunity.
The Chairman. Wait. We have a witness on now for examination.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Lawry, when a person would transfer the bene-
ficiary under his certificate from one person to another, would it come
through your office ?
Mr. Lawry. No.
Mr. Lynch. Where would it come through ?
Mr. Lawry. It would go to the lodge or branch wherein the person
is a member, and be sent to the national office
Mr. Lynch. Where is the lodge or branch in Pittsburgh ?
Mr. Lawry. There are 269 lodges under my jurisdiction in western
Pennsylvania.
Mr. Lynch. And how many members would there be in those 269
lodges ?
Mr. Lawry. We have about 15,000 adults and about 5,000 juniors,
over 20,000 members.
Mr. Lynch. How many schools do you conduct in that district ?
Mr. Laavry. No schools.
Mr. Lynch. No schools of the International Workers Order in that
district?
Mr. Lawry. No, sir; not under my jurisdiction.
Mr. VooRHis. These 20,000 people, what are they ? What does that
number represent, the number of members of the International
Workers ?
Mr. Laavry. That is the membership.
Mr. VooRHis. When you say that, that means all those people have
insurance with you?
Mr. Lawry. That is right, all insured members, and it is located
from Erie, Pa., from the West Virginia border line to the Ohio border
line, and then around Johnstown, probably 300 miles one way and 200
the other.
Mr. Lynch. Are there any members who do not have insurance
certificates?
Mr. Lawry. No.
Mr. Lynch. Give us a little more detail as to what your duties
would be in connection with the International Workers Order.
Mr. Lawry. Well, most of my duties is attending meetings. That
is, I go out and speak at meetings.
Mr. Lynch. What sort of meetings would you speak at ?
Mr. Lawry. Membership meetings, mostly.
Mr. Lynch. Where there would be persons who would solicit
membership, and you go out and give them sort of pep talks, to try
to get more members ?
Mr. Lawry. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Do you have a list of those workers, or where would
the list be of persons who would go out and secure new members ?
fe
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7481
Mr. Lawry. In tlio hands of whichever lodaes tliey belong to.
Mi-. Lynch. "Wouldn't they be in the central office in Pittsburgh?
]\Ir. Lawky. In New York, not in Pittsburgh. "We don't have the
names.
Ml". Lynch. In New York would there be a list of the entire mem-
bei'ship of the International AVorkers Order?
Mr. Lawry. Yes; because they all get magazines, and they all go
throuiih the post office each month.
:Sh\ Lynch. That would be at 50 East Thirteenth Street?
Mr. Lawry. No. no.
Mr. Lynch. "What is the address?
Mr. Lawry. 80 Fifth Avenue. New York.
Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, that is all I have. Dr. Matthews says
he would like to ask some questions.
The Chairman. All right.
~Mv. Matthews. Mr. Lawry, yon said you had spoken on numerous
occasions for unemployment councils?
Mr. Lawry. Yes; I have spoken thousands of times before practi-
cally every kind of organization. Republican, Democratic, Socialist,
Communist, unemployed, labor. For 30 years I have been in the pro-
gressive and labor movement.
Mr. Matthews. You didn't know at the time you spoke to the
Unemployed Council that they were an auxiliary organization of the
Communist Party, did you?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly did not.
Mr. jNIatthews. Didn't you know that that was fully and freely
and frequently stated in the publications of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lawry. Mr. Matthews, as burgess of my town, everybody was
allowed to come and speak.
Mr. ]\L\TTHEWS. I am not arguing about that. I am asking if you
did not know the ITnemployed Councils were fully and wholly and
frequently described both by the Unemployed Councils and by the
Communist Party as an auxiliary organization?
Mr. Lawry. I didn't know that.
ISIr. Matthews. Did you ever meet the head of the Unemployed
Council, Mr. Herbert Benjamin?
Mr. Lawry. No; I don't believe I ever met him. I have heard of
him.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know Mr. Herbert Benjamin was the head
of the Unemployed Council ?
iVIr. Lawry. I knew he was in some way connected with them.
Mr. Matthews. You knew he was an outstanding Communist of
the United States, didn't you ?
]Mr. Lawry. I heard so.
Mr. Matthews. And subsequently he became head of the AVorkers'
Alliance?
Mr. Lawry. "When I say he was a Communist, I didn't Imow that.
I knew he was connected with the "Workers' Alliance. I didn't know
any Unemployed Councils as such.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did you in your association with Mr. Dolsen know
he was a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Laavry. I did not.
Mr. Matthews. He said he was not a member of the Communist
Party?
7482 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lawry. I never carried on any conversation with him at all.
Mr. Matthews. You were not interested ?
Mr. Lawry. I only met him just casually. He came to the office
and asked me to speak at meetings, or called me on the telephone, and
I went to the meetino-s and spoke, when held under his auspices, or
auspices with which he was connected.
Mr. Matthews. Do you understand the workings of auxiliary or-
ganizations of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lawry. No ; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about their "united front"
tactics ?
Mr. Lawry. If you ask me the question — I don't know just what
you mean.
Mr. Matthews. I am asking you if you understood the way the
Communist Party worked through organizations such as Unemployed
Councils, Workers Alliance, International Workers' Order, for the
purpose of bringing in a large number of persons who were not Com-
munists, into their activities to further their ultimate purpose through
partial steps. Was that clear to you ?
Mr. Lawry. If I would be permitted to make a statement here, I
would merely say I am a realist, and I struggle and fight for every-
thing that alfects the immediate interests of the workers, and that
is all, and for that reason I participated in the daily struggles of the
workers, whether it is labor, political, or whatever it may be.
Mr. Matthews. Including the Communist Party?
Mr. Lawry. I said I fight for bread, butter, shoes, jobs, peace,
security for the workers. That is what I am interested in today.
I did not ever belong to the Communist Party.
Mr. Matthews. You wouldn't be interested in anything
Mr. Lawry. I am not interested.
Mr. Matthews. You wouldn't be interested in knowing the pur-
poses of the Communist Party in having you speak before one of
their organizations ?
Mr. Lawry. Well, I have never been invited to speak before one.
Mr. Matthews. You said you had been frequently a speaker before
the Unemployment Councils, Workers Alliance-
Mr. Lawry. I have spoken on numerous occasions, no matter what
it was.
Mr. Matthews. And you are the district president of the Inter-
national AVorkers Order?
Mr. Lawry. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. You know the Special Committee on Un-American
Activities has frowned at both the Workers Alliance and the Inter-
national Workers' Order as purely front organizations of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lawry. That may be so, but I am district president, and I am
not a member of the Communist Party.
The Chairman. Talking about the speeches you have made, have
vou ever made any speeches under the auspices of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Lawry. Never.
Mr. Lynch. Have you ever spoken at Connnunist Party meetings?
Mr. Lawry. I spoke at an open meeting several years ago, as State
president of the then Farmer-Labor Part}^ that was being organized,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7433
I think 4 or 5 years a^jo, at the Canicgie Music Hall. I think they
■were part of the various oroanizations that were participatint*;. But
1 spoke also with some members of the State le<^islature. I don't
know whether any IN [ember of Congress spoke thei'e or not, but I
believe there were.
Mr. Maithews. Are you acquainted with Leon Piatt?
]Mr. Lawry. I never heard of him.
Mr. ^Matthews. Or IVIartin Youn*;?
]\lr. Lawky. I have met Martin Young.
Mr. Matphews. You have met Martin Young?
]\Ir. Lawry. Yes.
Mr. ]\L\T'rHEWS. While he was secretary of the Communist Party?
j\lr. Lawry. About a year ago, I believe.
iSIr. Matthews. You didn't know his real name was Leon Piatt?
jNIr. Lawry. I did not.
The Chairinian. Was Martin Young active in any labor union in
the Pittsburgh area?
Mr. Lawry. I couldn't tell you. I don't know anything about that.
They let me distinctly alone, I am sure.
Mr. Lyxch. Mr. Lawry, do you know George Powers?
Mr. Lawry. Yes; I do.
Mr. Lynch. Is that him sitting back in the second row?
Mr. Lawry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever see him talk with Martin Young?
Mr. Lawry. No ; 1 did not. I didn't know him until several months
ago.
Mr. Lynch. When did you see George Powers?
Mr. Lawry. I was introduced to him some place.
Mr. Lynch. Have you ever been in the Communist Party head-
quarters ?
]\Ir. La\\t?y. If you can tell me where it is at.
IMr. Lynch. 305 Seventh Avenue.
Mr. Lawry. Never.
iSIr. Matthews. When did you meet Martin Young?
Mr. Lawry. I don't know. I believe I met him at Claireton.
Mr. Lynch. What was the occasion?
Mr. Lawry. A meeting of the C. I. O., an organizational drive,
seeking to organize the steel industry. It was a good many years
ago, in 1936 or 1937.
Mr. Lynch. Martin Young was a C. I. O. organizer then?
Mr. Lawry. Not to my knowledge. I didn't know wdio he was.
Mr. Lynch. He was at a C. I. O. organization meeting?
Mr. Lawry. There was a meeting held that day, and I believe I
was introduced to him. I was one of the speakers at this meeting.
Mr. Lynch. And he was there ; is that correct ?
Mr. Laavry. If I remember, I think that was the place I met him.
]Mr. Lynch. Did he speak?
Mr. Lawry. No.
]\Ir. Lynch. Was he on the speakers' platform?
Mr. Lawry, No.
Mr. Lynch. Had you ever met him before?
INIr. Lawry. No ; I had not.
ISIr. Lynch. That was the first and only time you met him?
Mr. Lawry. I think so.
7484 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever meet him after that ?
Mr. La WRY. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Frequently?
Mr. La WRY. No.
Mr. Lynch. How often did you see him or meet him?
Mr. La WRY. I don't believe I had met him more than four or five
tives.
Mr. Lynch. How often have you seen George Powers in the last
3 or 4 years ?
Mr. Lawry. Several times, three or four times.
Mr. Lynch. Three or four times a year ?
Mr. Lawry. Oh, no.
Mr. Lynch, All together?
Mr. Lawry. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. You knew he was head of the Communist Party in the
Pittsburgh area, didn't you ?
Mr. Lawry. I didn't; no, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did he ever tell you he was ?
Mr. Lawry. He did not. He worked in McKeesport, to my
knowledge.
Mr, Lynch. In McKeesport. What was he doing there ?
Mr. Lawry. He lived there.
Mr. Lynch. What was his work there?
Mr. Lawry. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the Inter-
national Workers Order?
Mr. Lawry. I was elected in 1936, 1937, and 1939.
Mr. Lynch. Is that when you joined?
Mr. Lawry. No, no.
Mr. Lynch. I asked how long you have been a member.
Mr. Lawry. I think in September, a year before, and the conven-
tion in April or INIay
Mr. Matthews. September 1935?
Mr. Lawry. Either that or 1936.
Mr. Matthews. Who solicited you to join the International Work-
ers Order?
Mr. Lawry. I was burgess of West Homestead at the time, and
someone in Homestead, I believe, first approached me, and after 3
or 4 months I read their constitution. I had been in the insurance
business, and after reading their aims and purposes, I felt it was a
pretty good organization to belong to, and I joined.
Mr. Matthews. Were you well acquainted with the young man who
solicited you?
Mr. Lawry. I didn't know him prior to that time.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know anything about his political con-
nections or background?
Mr. Lawry. No. He just worked in the mill; he talked very poor
English.
]Mr. Matthews. He may have been a Communist, so far as you
know ?
My. Lawry. He may have been. I never knew of any Commimist
in Pittsluirgh. It is the center of the steel industry. I never knew
a single one. and I was born and raised there.
Mr. Matthews. That is all.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7485
The Chairman. That covers that. You are excused.
Mr. Lawry. May I phice in the record that I am not now and
never was a niomber of the Communist Party ?
The CiiAtK:MAX. We have covered that very fully.
Mr, Lawry. I want to say that I certainly believe in building
democracy within the present framework of our Constitution.
The Chairman. You don't regard Soviet Russia as a democratic
country?
Mr. "Lawry. I don't know anything about Soviet Russia, except
this, that I know the big steel ])]ant in our town sells them an awful
lot of material, and the men down there are getting wages and buying
bread from those orders they are getting, and they seem to be well
satisfied in selling them material.
INIr. Lynch. I sulimit he has not answered the question.
The Chairman. Since you brought it up yourself
i\Ir. Lawry. I don't go beyond the present day. I refuse to be mixed
up in people's political beliefs.
The Chairiman, But you brought it in yourself. You said you be-
lieved in democracy,
Mr. Lawry. I do. I am fighting for democracy and to build de-
mocracy here in America within the framework of our Constitution.
The Chairman, I just wanted to get your idea of a democracy. Do
vou rejrard the Soviet Union as a democratic state ?
]Mr. Lawry. I am interested in a government form
The Chairman, I understand, but have you an opinion one way or
another on that?
Mr. Lawry. I don't have. I don't .study international affairs. I
am interested in my kids and raising them here and getting a happier
life for them here in America.
]Mr. Matthews. Do you subscribe for the Fraternal Outlook?
Mr. Lawry. I get it, because I am a member.
]VIr. Matthews. Have you ever seen articles in the Fraternal Out-
look on the Soviet Union?
Mr. Lawt?y, There may be. I don't often get a chance to read it.
iMr. Matthews. Don't you know that in almost every issue of Fra-
ternal Outlook there is some article on the Soviet Union?
Mr. Lawry. I don't know. There may be ; I don't know.
Mr. ^Matthews. Is the Fraternal Outlook the official magazine of
the International AVorkers Order?
Mr. Lawry. That is right.
The Chairman. Very well ; that is all.
Mr. Lawry. Thank you.
Mr. Dunn. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Mr. Dunn, I don't believe — ^Mr. Lynch, will you
look in tlie record
]\Ir. Lynch. I have looked, and I haven't seen anvthing.
The Chairman. Your name has not been mentioned in an}^ of the
hearings.
]Mr. Dunn. Then I will apologize to the committee, Mr. Chairman,
if my name has not been mentioned.
The Chairman. Your name is not mentioned one way or another.
Mr. Dunn. Let me say this. Just give me one minute.
The Chairman. I will tell you where we had that misunderstand-
ing. You arose the other day and said you wanted to be heard, and I
7486 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
said, "Mr. Dunn, we cannot permit interruptions at this time," but
that was not in connection with any hearing or anything of that sort.
Mr. Dunn. No ; but I do want to exonerate the committee. In yes-
terday's Pittsburgh papers an article appeared to the eifect that some
member of the committee here in,sulted me, and I became very angry.
1 want to go on record and inform the newspapers that no member
of this committee ever insulted me. That is all I want to say.
The Chairman. Thank you.
We have a telegram from the attorney of Clarence Hathaway —
first, I want to say that Dr. Blumberg has been subpenaed and he
is on his way. He is not in the room, is he ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. We are going to stand adjourned and subject to
the call of the Chair until Dr. Blumberg arrives.
However, we have a telegram from Mr. Clarence Hathaway's
attorney to the effect that Mr. Hathaway has just returned from a
2 weeks' trip and is now engaged in indispensable preparations for
trial in a libel case against him in New York, which will be called
on April 2, and that a grave injustice obviously would be imposed
on him if attendance at the committee at this time was enforced.
That is a matter for the committee's pleasure. We will take that
under advisement, and will stand adjourned subject to call.
(Thereupon, at 1:35 p. m., an adjournment was taken, subject to
the call of the Chairman.)
AFTER RECESS
(The committee reconvened at 4 p. m., pursuant to the taking of
the recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
STATEMENT OF DR. ALBERT E. BLUMBERG, BALTIMORE, MD.,
STATE SECRETARY OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF MARYLAND
AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
(The witness was duly sworn.)
The Chairman. What is your full name?
Mr. Blumberg. Albert Blumberg.
The Chairman. For the record, Mr. Cohn, are you Mr. Blumberg's
attorney.
Mr. CoHN. Yes, Mr. Dies.
The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Cohn is appearing
in behalf of Mr. Blumberg.
All right, Mr. Matthews.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, where do you live?
Mr. Blumberg. I live in Baltimore.
Mr. Matthews. What is your address?
Mr. Blumberg. 2523 Forest Park Avenue.
Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Blumberg. Since 1933.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7487
]\Ir. Matthews. Wluit is your oliicial position in the Communist
Party at the present time?
Mr. Blumhkkcj. I am State Secretary of the Communist Party of
Mar.vland and the District of Columbia.
^Ir. MATTur.ws. AVhere were you born?
Mr. BuMiJEiu;. Baltimore. Md.
Mr. JVlArrnEWs. Do you hold any other ])Osition than that of State
secretary of the Communist Party?
Mr. l^LiMBEKo. 1 lU) not.
Mr. Matthews. Are you a director of the "Workers' School of
Baltimore '.
Mr. Bmmberg. I have been in the past; yes.
Mr. MATTin:ws. You are not now?
Mr. Blfmberg. Xo: not actively associated now\ I teach courses
there from time to time.
;Mr. Matthews. You are an instructor at the Workers' School?
^Ir. BLr:\iHEK(;. That is ri^rht.
Mr. ^Matthews. How lono- have vou held the position of State
secretary of the Connnuuist Party of Baltimore?
Mr. BLr:MBERO. Since late October.
Mr. Matthews. Of 1989 ?
Mr. Blumberg. Of 1939.
Mr. Matthews. Where were you formerly employed prior to that
time?
Mr. Blumberg. I was employed as instructor in philosophy at
Johns Ho])kins I'niversity until the fall of 1937.
The CHAHorAX. What is that, the fall of what year?
:\Ir. Blumberg. 1937. That i.s, from 1930 until the fall of 1937.
The Chairmax. You were an instructor in philosophy?
Mr. Blumberg. At Johns Ho])kins University.
^Ir. Matthews. Were you an instructor at Johns Hopkins Uni-
versity when you joined the Connnunist Party?
Mr. Blumberg. Since I was associated with the university, from
1930 until the fall of 1937. then, of course, I was associated with
Johns Hoi)kins I^niversitv durino; the years 1934, 1935, 1936, and
1937.
Mr. Matthews. Do you remember who it was who recruited you
into the Connnmiist Party?
]\Ir. Bi,u:mberg. Xo; I don't recall.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. Was it someone in Baltimore?
Mr. Blumberg. I joined the Communist Party in Baltimore.
]Mr. ^Matthews. But you don't recall the person who is listed as
the one who recruited you?
Mr. Blumberg. I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Under what name are you a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Blumberg. My membership book bears the name of Albert E.
Blumberg,
]Mr. ^Matthews. Is it sometimes the practice of the Communist
Party to have its members use what is known as a "party name"'?
Mr. Coiix. Mr. Chairman, may I object to this tyj)e of (luestion?
As to whether it is the general practice, or sometimes the ])ractice?
The Chairmax. The objection is overruled. Proceed. •
94931—40 — vol. 12 19
7488 UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthew's. Will you please answer the question?
Mr. Blumberg. There are obviously examples where — I have heard
of examples where party books are made out in names which are
not the real names of the individuals for whom those books are
made.
Mr. Matthews. You say you have heard of such examples. Have
any such examples gone through the routine of your own office?
Mr. Blumberg. I won't say that. I want to say that I decline ta
answer on the grounds that the information is personal and private,
and I decline to answer any questions destined to identify individ-
uals as members of the Communist Party on the ground that such
questions are not pertinent to the purposes of the committee
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I haven't asked that.
Mr. Blumberg. As defined in the resolution establishing the
committee, and they are
The Chairman. Just answer the question he has asked.
Mr. Blumberg. Designed or may be used to establish a blacklist
and victimize and intimidate people.
The Chairman. That is not the question he is asking you at
this time. The question he is asking you — repeat it.
Mr. Matthews. It was whether or not in his office, coming under
his own immediate supervision, there have been cases where mem-
bers used party names other than their own. I haven't asked hiin
to identify any such persons.
The Chairman. That is quite a different question from what you
made your objection to.
Mr. Blumberg. AVell, I was simply anticipating further questions.
The Chairman. You don't have to anticipate. Just confine your-
self to the particular question.
Mr. Blumberg. I can say that I know of some examples of that.
Mr. Matthews. About how many such examples have come to-
your notice since last October when 3^ou assumed the State secre-
taryship?
Mr. Blumberg. I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Matthews. What proportion? Have you any definite idea
of that?
ISIr. Blumberg. I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Of the members who use names other than their
own.
Mr. Blumberg. I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Would it be most of them?
Mr. Blumberg. I have no idea just what proportion it is.
Mr. Matthews. Would it be two or three examj^les?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. How many members of the Communist Party are
there in the district of which you are secretary?
Mr. Blumberg. The organization has approximately 1,000 mem-
bers in this territory.
Mr. Matthews. What does that territory cover?
The Chairman. Before you go on there, may I state for the sake
of the record that the committee is acting through a subcommittee
composed of the chairman. Mr. Dempsey, and Mr. Mason, by ap-
pointment" of the Chair. Proceed.
UX-AMKKli'AN riiurAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7489
Mr. JklATTiiEws. Will you state whut territory is covered by the
district of which you are secretary?
:Mr. Bli MBERo'. The State oi' Marylaud and the District of
Columbia.
Mr. MAT-rHEws. That is all that is covered by your district?
ISlr. BLi-:MnERo. That is all tliat is covered.
Mr. Ma'i-theavs. In the course of your work as secretary of the
Communist Party of this district, you have come in contact with
party records involvino- menibershi]), have you not?
Mr. BLrMBEKo. In the district of which I am secretary there are
no records of party membershi]).
Mr. Matthews. Do yo\i mean to say there are not records of any
kind pertaining to party membership?
Mr. Blumbekg. There are no records which list party members in
the district.
Mr. Matthews. Are there any records that list any party members
in the district ?
Mr. Blumberg. No official records that I know of.
The Chairman. For clarity's sake, I understood the witness said
that in that district there are a thousand members of the party.
Mr. Blumberg. Apjiroximatel}'; yes.
The Chairman. How many in the District of Columbia and how
many in Maryland ? Can you divide it ?
Mr. Blumberg. That again would be a very rough figure. I would
sa}' it is roughly half and half.
The Chairman. Half and half? .
Mr. Blumberg. Yes, roughly. Those are rough figures.
The Chairman. All right; proceed.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean that there are records pertaining to
membership in your district that are outside your district?
Mr. Blumberg. No ; I don't mean anything like that. What I mean
is I don't know of any records of party membership in our district.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. That exist anywhere?
Mr. Blumberg. I know of none that exist anywhere.
Mr. Matthews. Have there been any such records in the past as
to such membership?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't know what happened in the past.
Mr. Matthews. You are putting it in the present tense, that there
are no records. I am asking you if there have been records in the
past.
Mr. CoHN. He has already answered.
Mr. Matthews. I was explaining what I meant by the question.
Mr. CoHN. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not any records pertain-
ing to membership have been destroyed?
Mr. Blumberg. I have no knowledge of it.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this piece of paper, if you
can. as to what it would signify to you? Have you received such a
document in that form ?
Mr. Blumberg. It means nothing to me.
Mr. Cohn. May I see that, please?
^Ir. Matthews. Yes.
Have you ever received folded pieces of paper, pasted with strips
of that kind, containing messages or information of any sort per-
taining to matters of the Communist Party?
7490 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Blu:mberg. I personally have received none.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen such?
Mr. Blumberg. I have seen pieces of paper sometimes with some«
thing glued on there.
Mr. Matthews. Did it contain messages?
Mr. Blumberg. I have no way of knowing. I have no knowledge
of such.
Mr. Matthews. In the files which came from your headquarters
in Baltimore, this piece of paper contained the following:
23,572 Barbara Hutton P. N., District 2, Kings, New York, 18, A. D., Section
7, to Baltimore.
Can you explain, Dr. Blumberg, what "P. N." stands for when it
is placed after the name of a person in the records of memorandum
of the Communist Party?
]Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any questions
relating to records, alleged records taken in the visit of tlie com-
mittee representatives to the Baltimore office of the party yester-
day, on the ground that that action
The Chairman. Will you not make a general objection-
Mr. Blumberg. On the ground that that action I am advised and
believe was unlawful and unconstitutional.
The Chairman. You are making it general. He asked you a
specific question. Will you read the question?
(Whereupon the following question was read by the reporter:)
Mr. Matthews. In tlie flies wliicli came from your lieadquarters in Baltimore,
this piece of paper contained the following:
'•2£j,.572 Barbara Hutton P. N., District 2, Kings, New York, 18, A. D., Section
7, to Baltimore."
Can you explain, Dr. Blumberg, what ''P. N." stands for when it is placed
after the name of a person in the records or memorandum of tlie Communist
I'arty?
The Chairman. You decline to answer that question for the reason
that you have previously stated?
Mr. Blumberg. I do.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer the question.
Do you still decline?
Mr. CoHN. Ma)^ I consult with my client?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Blumberg (after consultation with counsel). With regard to
the
Mr. Lynch. Just a minute. Mr. Chairman, I submit this witness
should answer the question "Yes" or "No."
Tlie Chairman. You have already stated your reason. Do you
decline to answer that question?
]Mr. Blumberg. I wish to explain what "P. N." means.
INIr. Lynch. I submit he should not be allowed to make a speech.
Mr. Blumberg. With regard to the question as to what "P. N."
means, that in my opinion is an abbreviation which could mean
'"Party name."
Mr. Matthews. Isn't it within your knowledge, Dr. Blumberg,
that "P. N." always means "Party name," when it appears in this
fashion ?
Mr. Blumberg. I say it could mean that.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever known it to mean anything else?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 749 J
]Mr. Bi.iMBKRO. T liiivc very seldom oncountcrod that abbreviation.
Mr. MA'rriiKWs. Bui you have eiicounleiocl it t
Mr. BLUMiiKRG. ''P. N." can mean many things.
Mr. JMatthews. But you say you have encountered it, even though
seldom ?
Mr. Blimberg. Very seldom.
Mr. Matthews. Do yon always interpret it as meaning "Party
Name"' ?
Mr. BLi':\rm:RG. I do so interpret it.
Mr. Matthews. When you encounter it?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. In case the name of a member or a person con-
nected with the party had the letters "R. N.'' after the name, what
would that mean?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't know. I have never encountered any such
abbreviation.
Mr. ^Matthews. Have you ever seen party records which had two
names on a document, one with "P. N." after the name, and the
other with ''R. N." after the name?
Mr. Blumberg. Not that I can recall; no.
Mr. ISIatthews. Is Barbara Hutton, known as such by her party
name, a member of the Connuunist Party in Baltimore?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, for reasons previously given, I de-
cline to answer any question designed to identify any individual as a
member of the Communist Party.
The Chairman. What I am trjnng to get you to do is to say
whether you decline to answer this particular question.
]Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer this question, and any such
fiuestion designed to identify
The Chairman. We will get to the others. Do I understand you
decline to answer this particular question for the reasons you pre-
viously stated?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes. I decline to answer any question regarding
the party status of an individual, and this is such a cpestion.
The Chairman. I am asking you, do you decline to answer this
particular questicm for the reasons stated?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes; since this question relates to alleged party
membership.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer the question.
Do you still decline?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes; I decline.
Mr. INIatthews. I would now like to ask the witness if he knoAvs
the person referred to in this document, without asking him to iden-
tify the person ?
iVIr. Blumberg. Xo; I do not.
^Ir. Matthews. Are you acquainted with the records of the Young
Communist League in JBaltimore, Mr. Blumberg?
Mr. Bt.ump.erg. No: I am not.
Mr. ^Matthews. Who is the secretary of the Young Communist
League in Baltimore?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer
Mr. ISIatthews. Isn't that a matter of ])ublic record?
^Ir. Blxmberg. On the crouiid that this question is not germane
to the purposes of the inquiry.
7492 UX-AMEllICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer the question.
Do you still decline?
]\ir. Blumberg. I decline.
The Chairman. All right ; proceed.
Mr. Matthews. This morning there was introduced into evidence
before tliis committee. Dr. Blumberg, a memorandum which had to
do with the removal of Joan Davis from the post of regional ad-
ministrative secretary of the Young Communist League in Balti-
more on tlie ground that Joan Davis had had dinner Avith her
brother and had then invited him to stay overnight in her home, and
furthermore that her brother was identified by this memorandum as
being on tour for a Trotskyite organization.
Do you know the Joan Davis referred to in this document ?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, for reasons previously stated, I
decline to answer any question concerning documents taken from
the office.
The Chairman. You decline to answer this question?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer this question or any ques-
tion
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer this question.
Do you still decline?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline, because I believe them to have been
improperly seized.
Mr. Matthews. I show you a canceled check dated January 25,
1938. on the Drovers & Mechanics office, Maryland Trust Co.. '"Pay
to the order of A. Benson, $161.87," signed bv the Communist Party of
Maryland, Joan Davis, secretary, district office.
Will you identify that check?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I again decline to answer any ques-
tions concerning the material taken from the office yesterday, on the
ground
The Chairman. You decline to answer this question?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer any question— —
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to do so.
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to do so on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Matthews. Do you identify this check as having gone through
your office?
The Chairman. What check is it?
Mr. Matthews. The check is dated Baltimore. ]\Id., October 28,
1938, payable to A. Benson, for $167.27, signed Joan Davis, secretary,
Communist Party, Maryland.
The Chairman. What question are you asking with reference to
that check?
Mr. Matthews. If he will identify this check.
The Chairman. That doesn't purport to have anv signature of his
on it ?
Mr. Matthews. It is a check which was obtained from the files of
the Communist Party in Baltimore.
The Chairman. I understand. Let me ask you this. Doctor: Did
you ever see that check before?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I again decline to answer any ques-
tion in relation to the documents taken yesterday, on the grounds
previously stated.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7493
The CiiAiuMAN. If you \vill ju^t contine it to the purticuhir ques-
tion. I am asking yoii tlid you ever see that check before. You
decline to answer^
Mr. CoHX. He declines to answer.
The CiiAiKMAX. Altliouiih the Chair requires you to do so?
Mr. Blumbekg. I decline to answer.
Mr. CoHN. Mi-. Chairman, may I say we may be able to save a good
deal of time if. instead of taking these documents singly — this wit-
ness has already stated a blanket objection.
The Chairman. "We will determine the course of the procedure,
with your i)ermission.
Mr. Lynch. May I suggest that these two checks be marked by the
reporter Xo. 1 and No. 2 (
(The checks referred to were thereupon marked, respectively,
"Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2, Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. I hold a check dated Baltimore, Md., October 8,
1938, payable to A. Benson, for $382.70. signed Communist Party
of Maryland, Joan Davis, secretary, district office.
Have you ever seen that check?
]Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I again decline to answer the ques-
tion on the grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to do so, and you decline?
Mr. Blumberg. On the grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. May I ask you if you know who A. Benson is?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any question
relating to individuals other than myself.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer this particular
question. Do you know who A. Benson is?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. All right ; proceed.
:Mr. Lynch. May that be marked "Exhibit Xo. 3^'?
(The check referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 3,
Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, do you know William Weiner?
Mr. Blumberg. I have seen the name of William Weiner appear-
ing in various publications. I don't know him personally.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know what position he has held in the
past in the Communist Party of the United States ?
]\Ir. Blumberg. I know nothing about his position with regard to
any organization.
Mr. Matthews. You know nothing about his position ?
Mr. Blumberg. No.
Mr. Matthews. Have you known anything about his position
since you have been State secretary of the Connnunist Party ^
Mr. Blumberg. X"o.
]\rr. Matthews. You don't know in October, you mean to say, that
William AVeiner was the financial secretary of the Communist Party
of the United States?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any question
relating to the alleged membership in the Communist Party of any
individual other than myself for the reasons previously given.
The Chairman. You stated that, but he is askino- vou
7494 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. The witness has ah-eady stated he did not know
it, and I thought it was only fair to give him an opportunity to say
he did.
The Chairman. You said you did not know William Weiner?
Mr, Blumberg. I don't know him personally.
Mr. Matthews. And he also stated he did not know anything
about any position he held in the Communist Party.
The Chairman. Yes, he stated that. That is already on the record.
Mr. Blumrekg. That is right. I beg pardon — for the sake of the
record, I stated I did not know anything about the position which
he holds.
The Chairman. No; you said you did not know anything about
him in connection with any position in the Communist Party.
Mr. Blumberg. I was then asked if I had ever known anything in
the past.
The Chairman. The record will show what you said. Do you
want the record read?
Mr. Blumberg. The record will show I decline to answer.
The Chairman. No; the record is not that. You did answer that
question.
Mr. Blumberg. I said I knew nothing of his position.
Mr. Lynch. AYill the Chair direct him to answer that last
question?
The Chairman. Yes. Will you read the last question?
(AVhereupon the reporter read the question referred to, as follows :)
You don't know in October, you mean to say, that William Weiner was tlie
financial secretary of the Communist Party of tlie United States?
The Chairman. You decline to answer that question?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer the question.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer. Do you still
decline ?
Mr. Blumberg. I still decline.
Mr. Matthews. Mv. Chairman, all three of these checks introduced
so far are endorsed by A. Benson, and with the stamped endorsement
of William Weiner. They are exhibits 1, 2, and 3. Dr. Blumberg,
who is J. Fields? Do you know J, Fields?
Mv. CoiiN. May I have an opportunity to consult with my client?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Blumberg (after consultation with counsel). Mr. Chairman. I
have no personal recollection of J. Fields, or what his activities are.
The Chairman. You don't know anyone by that name?
Mr. Blumberg. No; I don't recall anyone of that name.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, I show you a check dated Balti-
more, Md., January 26, 1940, "Pay to the order of J. Fields, $100.'"
signed ''Connnunist Party of Maryland. Carl Brenn. Administrative
Secretary.''
Does that refresh your recollection as to who J. Fields might be?
Mr. Bli^mberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any questions
with regard to records unlawfidly and unconstitutionally taken from
our office yesterday.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer. Do you still
decline ?
Mr, Cohn. Mr. Chairman
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7495
Tho CiiMiorAN. Wliat?
Mr. Coiix. 1 (lithrt mean to interrupt, if you Avere about to say
sonu'thino-.
The Chairman. Go on.
Mr. CoHN. I wisli to say there seems to be an objection made by
the witness that this e\iclence-
Tlie Chairman. We know what his objection is.
Mr. CoHN. Has been unlawfully seized. It seems to me this com-
mittee should I'osolve that question of fact as to the method by which
tliis material was broiioht here.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. MattheAvs.
;Mr. ^Matthews. Do you mean to say, Dr. Blumberg:, that the Com-'
nuuiist Party of Maryland, of which you are the responsible head,
would make out a check for $100 to a person about whom you have
no recollection {
Mr. BLUMnERO. ^Nlr. Chairman, I a^ain refuse to answer any ques-
tions with re<rard to the material
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question?
Mr. Blumberg. Taken from our office yesterday.
The Chairman. Stick with the particular question. Do you decline
to answer this particular (juestion?
Mr. Blumberg. This particular question has to do with material
taken yesterday.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer. Do you
decline?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Proceed.
]Mr. ^Matthews. I ask that this check be marked "Exhibit No. 4.'
It is ondorsed "J. Fields. AVorkcrs Library Publishers, Inc."
(The check referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 4, Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. I have here a check dated February 1, 1940, made
payable to J. Fields, in the sum of $100, by the Communist Party of
Maryland, Carl Brenn, administrative secretary, and likewise en-
dorsed "J. Fields. Workers' Library Publishers, Inc."
Did you authorize the ])ayment of that sum?
^Ir. Bli MBERG. INIr. Cliairman. I again decline to answer any
questions with legard to material taken from our office yesterday.
The Chairman. The Chair requires the witness to answer. The
witness refuses.
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer.
The Chair. ALAN. All rijrht : proceed.
Mr. IMatthews. Do all expenditures made by the Communist Party
of Maryland have to be (). K.'d by you?
]Mr. iin MBERG. As the State secretary of the or<ianization, I am
acquainted with the expenditures that are made.
The Chairman. That doesn't answer his question. The question is:
Do exjx'iiditures have to be authoi-ized by you?
Mr. Blumberg. The expendituies have to be authorized by a com-
mittee, of which I would be one member.
The Chairman. What committee is that?
Mr. P)Li"MBERG. ]\Iost majoi- expenditures would be authorized by
the State executive connnittee.
The Chairman. The State executive committee?
Mr. Blumberg. That is ri^rht.
7496 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. And you are a member of the committee?
^h\ Blumbeeg. I am a member of the committee.
The Chairman. And as secretary of the organization, does the
committee control your actions?
Mr. Bll'mberg. It does.
Mr. Lynch. Who are the other members of the committee, Mr.
Bhnnberg ?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any question
which has for its purpose the identification of any individual
The Chairman. Stick with this particular question.
Mr. Blumberg. As a member of the Communist Party or any
■ The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer that particular
question. You decline to do so?
^Ir. Blumberg. I do.
The Chairman. All right ; proceed. Any other questions, Mr.
Lynch ?
Mr. Lynch. That is all.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, would the sum of $100 be consid-
ered a significant sum ? You spoke of significant sums being brought
before the State executive committee.
Mr. Blumberg. I believe so.
Mr. Matthews. Did the payment of $100 to J. Fields come before
the State executive committee for authorization?
Mr. Blumberg. I refuse to answer, Mr. Chairman, any questions
regarding mateiial taken unlawfully and unconstitutionally
The Chairman. The Chair requires the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Blumberg. From our office in Baltimore yesterday.
The Chairman. The witness declines to do so?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer.
^Ir. Matthews. I request that this be marked as exhibit No. 5.
(The check referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 5,
Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, I show you a check dated Sep-
tember 29, 1939. made payable to the order of William Weiner, for
$197.35, by the Communist Party of Maiyland, Carl Brenn, admin-
istrative secretary.
Will you identify that as a payment made by your office?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I again refuse to answer any ques-
tion with regard to material taken unlawfully and unconstitutionally
from our office in Baltimore yesterday.
The Chairman. The Chair requires the witness to answer. The
witness declines?
Mr. Blumberg. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Matthews. That will be exhibit No. 6.
(The check referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 6,
Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, do you know A. Landy?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any questions
lelating to any individuals and myself.
The Chairman. The Chair requires the witness to answer the ques-
tion. The witness declines ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline.
UX-A:MI-:KI('AX I'KUl'AliAXDA ACTIVITIES 7497
The Chairman. All rialit; proceed.
Mr. IMattiiews. Don't you know. Dr. T>lunil)era\ that A. Laiicly
is the president of the pni)lishin<!; company that i)ublishes the Daily
Worker?
Ml". BLr:\iRi:KG. I liave seen the name of A. Landy printed on the
masthead of the Daily "Worker as president of the company.
Mr. IMaithews. Wlial ])ayments Avould be made by the Commu-
nist Party of America to A. Landy? Would they be payments for
the Daily Worker?
Mr. Blumbkkc. The Communist Party of ]Mai'yland makes pay-
ments to New York for literature, copies of the Daily Worker, and
similar supplies of material.
The Chair:man. Do you make these payments to ]Mr. Landv?
Mr. Blumbekg. I a<iain refuse to answer any questions with regard
to any individuals
The Chairman. You refuse to state whether or not in making
payments to the Daily Worker the checks are made payable to Mr.
Landy ?
Mr. Bli-]mberg. Yes ; I refuse to answer any questions with regard
to any individual.
The Chairman. The Chair requires the witness to answer. The
witness declines; is that correct?
]Mr. J^lumberg. That is right.
The Chairman. All right ; proceed.
Mr. Matiiiews. I show you a clieck dated Baltimore. Md., dated
October 26, 1939. payable to the order of A. Landj^, in the sum of
$50. signed ''Comnumist Party of INIaryland. Carl Brenn. adminis-
trative secretary.*' and the check is endorsed by the stamped signa-
ture of A. Laiuiy.
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman. I again decline to answer.
The Chairman. He hasn't asked anything.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this as a payment made
by the Communist Party of Maryland to A. Landy ?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer any questions relating to mate-
rials taken unlawfully and unconstitutionally from the office
yesterday.
The Chairman. Will you answer the question as to whetlier or
not the Communist Party of Maryland has made any payment to
A. Landy?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I previously stated I decline to
answer an}' questions with regard to individuals other than myself.
The Chair:man. The Chair requires j^ou to answer the question.
The witness declines; is that correct?
Mr. Blimberg. Yes.
The Chairman. All right: proceed.
Mr. Matthews. I ask that this be marked as exhibit Xo. 7.
(The check referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 7,
Blumberg.")
]Mr. Matthews. Di'. Blumberg. about how nuich do tlie payments
of the Conmumist Party of Maryland amount to each month to the
Daily AVorker?
Mr. Blfmberg. I have no pa])ers with me that would indicate any
exact figures. My best recollection — let us put it this way — that the
7498 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
local office pays the Daily Worker for all copies received and sold in
the city of Baltimore. Just how much that would amount to in the
course of a week or month I can't give you an accurate figure on.
Mr. Matthews. Would it amount to a sum as large as $3,000 in
the course of a year?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't believe so.
Mr. Matthews. What would be your estimate of the sum in the
course of a year — inasmuch as payments may be made irregularly,
month by month?
Mr. Blumberg. It is a very difficidt thing to say, because the num-
ber of copies varies greatly from week to week and month to month,
so I have no accurate figures on that questi(m.
Mr. Matthews. Would you say the sum is more than $2,500 in
the course of a year?
Mr. Blttmberg. I wouldn't be able to say.
The Chairman. You have no idea?
Mr. Blu^mberg. No, because it varies very much from week to
week, and from month to month.
The Chatr:man. Have you any recollection as to what it is in any
given month?
Mr. Blumberg. I do not.
The Chairman. Do you remember any month?
Mr. Blumberg. I do not. I personally do not take care of the
Daily Worker account.
Mr. Matthews. Who does?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer any question with regard to
the identification of any particular individual.
The Chairman. You decline to answer tlie question as to who has
charge of taking care of the payments to the Daily Worker?
Mr. Blumberg. I do.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer. You decline,
is that correct ?
Mr. Bluiviberg. That is correct, for the reasons previously stated.
The Chairman. All right ; proceed.
Mv. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, isn't that person Ben Field?
Mr. Blumberg. What person?
Mr. Matthews. The person who has chai'ge of these Daily Worker
accounts ?
INIr. Blumberg. I have previously declined to answer any ques-
tions
The Chairman. The Chair i-equires you to answer. The witness
declines, is that correct ?
Mr. Blumberg. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, I sliow you a letter dated ]\Iarch 15,
1940, addressed to Albert E. Blumberg, 501-D North Eutaw Street,
Baltimore, Md., on the letterhead of the Daily Worker, 50 East Thir-
teenth Street, New York City, signed ''Solomon, Circulation
Department."
Did you receive that letter?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any question
with regard to material taken from our office yesterday.
The Chairman. You decline to answer this particular question?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7499
Tlu> Chairman. The Chair itMiiiires you to answer it. Do you still
declined
Mr. Blf^iberg. That is coiroct.
The Chairman, All rioht; proceed.
Mr. Matihews. I have auotliei' lettei' ou the letterliead of the
Daily Worker, addressed to Alheit Blunibero-, 501-A North Eutaw
Street. Baltimore. Md., sij>;iied "Solomon."
Did you receive that communication?
The Chairman. What is the date of the connnunication?
Air. :Mat'ihews. March 4, 1940.
The Chairman. Did 3'ou receive that letter?
Ml'. Blf^iuerg. Air. Chairman, I again decline to answer any ques-
tion with regard to material taken from our office yesterdaj'.
The Chairman. T1u> Chair requires you to answer this particular
question. You decline, is that correct?
Air. Blfmrerg. Yes.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Air. AIatthews. I ask that these letters be marked "Exhibits 8
and 9."'
(The letters referred to were thereupon marked "Exhibits Nos.
8 and 9.")
Air. AIatthews. I have here a letter dated Alarch 13, 1940, ad-
dressed to the Communist Party, Albert E. Blumberg, 501-D North
Eutaw Street. Baltimore, on the letterhead of the Daily Worker,
signed ""Comradelv vours, Ira Wallach, Circulation Alanager."
Did you receive that letter?
Air. Blu3iberg. Air. Chairman, I again decline to answer any ques-
tion with regard to material taken unlawfully and unconstitutionally
from our office in Baltimore.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer, and you still
decline?
Air. Blumbekg. I do.
The Chairman. All right, ])roceed.
Air. AIatthews. That will be ''Exhibit 10."
(The letter referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 10,
Blum berg.")
Air. AIatthews. Dr. Blumberg, are you acquainted with one H. J.
Lawler?
Air. Blumberg. The name is vaguely familiar.
Air. AIattheavs. Do you have any recollection of having had any
conference with such person?
Air. Blumberg. I have no recollection.
All-. AIatthews. Is H. J. Lawler a member of the Communist Party
in the State of Alaryland ?
Air. BuMBERG. Air. Chairman, I refuse to answer any questions with
regard to any individual other than myself.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer this particular question, al-
though the Chair directs you to do so?
Air. I)LU-"MBERG. I do.
The Chairman. All right.
Air. AlATtHEws. Dr. l>liimberg, here is a copy of a letter which was
introduced into the record this morning, addressed "Dear Dr. Blum-
berg. Alonday evening." It is signed H. J. Lawler.
7500 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Looking at that letter, can you identify it as having been received
by you ?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer any questions
with regard to any material which I contend was unlawfully and un-
constitutionally taken from our office in Baltimore yesterday.
The Chairman. The witness refuses to answer this paiticular ques-
tion, altihoiigh the Chair directs him to do so. Is that correct?
Mr. Blumberg. I do.
Tlie ( HAiRMAN. All right.
Mr. JNIa^lthews. Dr. Biiunberg, I show you a book which is called
Communist Party of the U. S. A. 1938 Membership Book. Are you
acquainted with this or similar books?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes ; I have seen such books.
Mr. Matthews. I show you another Conununist Party of the U . S. A.
1939 Membership Book. You are acquainted with that type of book
Also ?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes, sir ; I have seen those.
Mr. Matthews. As a matter of fact, haven't you kept supplies
•of those books in your headquarters ?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes; we keep a certain number of blank member-
ship books.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do you keep them there for the purpose of issu-
ing them to ncAv members ?
Mr. Blumberg. We do.
Mr. jSIatthews. And you have issued such books?
Mr. Blumberg. We have.
Mr. Matthews. Who is the membershi}) director of the Communist
Party of Maryland ?
Mr. Blumberg. ]\ir. Chairman, I decline to mention or otherwise
designate any individual other than myself.
The Chairman. The witness declines to answer the question, al-
though the chairman directs him to answer; is that correct?
jNIr. Blumberg. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, in both these books there are cards
inside the front and back, which appear to be placed there for the
purpose of being detached. There is a perforated line. Will you
please explain what is done to these cards when they are filled
out according to instructions given on the cards themselves?
The first card has a number at the top and says. "I have received
membership liook," and a place for signature, and various identifica-
tion, and then the notation, "Be sure to sign and return to the mem-
bership director."
Will you please state what the membership director does with these
cards ?
Mr. Blumberg. It is my impression when these cards are returned
to the membership director tliat the cards ai-e then destroyed. The
only purpose served by this card is to indicate the member has received
his book.
Mr. Matthews. You sav it is your impression. Have you ever
seen those cards destroyed?
Mr. Blx'^niberg. Yes.
ISIr. ISIatthews. Have you ever destroyed such cards?
Mr. Blumberg. Personally, no.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7501
Mr. Matthews. Didn't you state ii inoment ajio von liad no knowl-
edge of any reeortls of the Connnunist party in Baltimore ever having
been destroyed?
Mr. CoHN, Mr. Chairman, may I say that is not what the testimony
was i
The CHAimrAx. The witness did say that.
Ml". BLUMUEm;. Mr. Chairman, I stated earlier that I have no per-
sonal knowledge of" the destruction of records, in tlie sense of member-
t-hip lists.
The Ch.virman. No; yon said no records of the pai-ty. J)o you
want to qualify that !'
Mr. BLr:\rBERO. ]Mr. Chairman, this is not a permanent record of
the party. 1 am trying to indicate
The Chairman. He didn't say anything about permanent. The
question asked you earlier in the session was whether or not you had
any recollection or were present or knew of any record of the party
being destroyed, and you said no. You liave just admitted that you
were present when these pages that were torn off and sent to the
membership director were destroyed.
Mr. Blumberg. What I am trying to indicate. Mr. Chairman, is
that the pages that you refer to constitute simply temporary — fulfill a
temporary function or purpose, which is to indicate the member has
received the book.
The Chairman. But it is a record of the member who received the
book, is it not 'i
]Mr. Blumberg. It is a recocd of the member having received the
book.
The Chair^nian. And it is sent to the membership director?
Mr. Blumberg. It is generally sent to the membership director.
The Chairman, For what purpose is it sent to the membership
director ?
Mr. Blumberg. Simply to indicate to tlie membership director that
the book has been received.
The Chairman. Why would he want the information unless he
was going to keep a record?
Mr. Bli'mbekg. Because it is of concern to the membership director
to know that the members have received their books.
The Chairman. How can he remember it, if he destroys them?
Mr. Blumberg. Because once the book has been received, there is
no question remaining.
]\Ir. Dempsey. Do you mean if you have 1,000 books out, and the
record is destroyed that they have been received, that this man would
remember everyone that has received it ?
^Ir. Blumberg. I said before
Mr. Dempsey. I didn't ask him what he said. I am asking you
that. You say there is no other record of the membership books out '-.
]\[r. Blumberg. I say there exists no list of members havinir boolcs
in (nir party organization.
Mr. Dempsey. You also said you have not destroyed any of the
records, and now you say you do.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, may I say, if your definition of records
includes letters and papeis of this kind
The Chairman. We didn't say anytliing about letters.
Mr. Cohn. There seems to be a difference of definition.
7502 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. No, there isn't. The witness said a moment ago
this was a record.
Mr. CoHN. The question was understood by the witness previously
as referring to more permanent records. If you will give the witness
a chance to clarify it
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the record be read. There
was no reference to lists, or letters.
The Chairman. The Chair understands that. The \Yitness earlier
said he had never been ]iresent and liad no recollection of any records
of the party being destroyed.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Or of any records pertaining to any members of
the party.
Mr. BLUMBi:Ra. I don't recall the last part that Mr. Matthews men-
tioned. What I did say and what I meant to say and what I had in
mind when I used the term "records'' was permanent membership
records.
The Chairman. Your explanation, as I understand it, is this — that
when a book is issued by — who issues the books ?
Mr. Blumberg. The books are issued l)y the membership director.
The Chairman. I mean l)y that, who has custody of the books?
Mr. Bluimberg. The membership director.
The Chairman. The membership director?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. No one else has custody of the books?
Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
The Chairman. He issues the boolc^;?
]SIr. Blumberg. That is right.
The Chair:man. What is the object of him tearing off the record
if as a moment ago you said the object Avas to know that the book
was issued?
Mr. Blltmberg. I beg your pardon. There seems to be some mis-
understanding here.
The Chairman. I wish you would clarify it.
Mr. Blumberg. If you will examine this, this is not a record which
the membership director keeps in his possession. This card that is
leferred to is something which the ])erson vrho receives the book is
asked to fill out and return to the membership director.
The Chairman. All right. In other Avords, when you joined the
Communist Party, you got a book from the membership director; is
that right?
Mr. Bluimberg. That is right.
The Chairman. He handecl it to you in person ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blumberg. Well, it has been some years ago. I think that is
what happened.
The Chairman. Well, is it the custom to hand it to them in j^erson?
Mr. Blumberg. It may be done differently.
The Chairman. Well, how is it done?
Mr. Blumberg. Either handed to him in person, or it may be
given, for example, to the secretary of the branch, rather than to
the individual member.
The Chairman. Given to the secretary of the branch?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So that he in turn can issue the book to the new
member ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7503
Mr. BLr:MnERr,. To the nioiiilKM-; t1i;it is rijiht.
Till' C'liAiKMAN. Then when the book is in the hands of the new
member
Mr. Hi,i'Mni:i{G. Yes.
The Cii.MitMAN. He has to tear ott' the first page, fill it out. and
return it to the membership dii'ector?
Mr. Blumberg. Correct.
The CiiAiHMAX. Is he aiven the name of the membership direc-
toi- at the time the book is issued to him ^
Mr. Bli Miu'.Ko. What is done is that the new member who receives
the book, as a lule. returns that sli]) to the secretary of his branch,
who in turn transmits it to the membership director.
The C'haik:man. Then what is the object of sending the slip back
to the membership director?
]\Ir. Blumberg. To indicate that the new member has received the
book. That is the only object.
The Chairman. That would only a])ply in a case, however, where
the membership director had given the book to the secretary of the
branch or someone else?
Mr. Bli'mberg. That is the usual custom. That is the custom.
The CiiAiR3iAN. The custom is to give it to the secretary of the
branch ?
Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
The Chairman. And only in rare instances does the membership
director himself hand it to the member in person?
Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Now, Dr. Blumberg, I want to knoAv if 1 under-
stand your testimony correctly, that the only function this particular
card in the front of the book serves is to go back to the membershio
director as evidence that the member has received the book?
]Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
Mr. ]\[atthews. And this card is then destroved?
]\Ir. Blumberg. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. If it does not go into any record in the files of
the Communist Party of ]\Iaryland or elsewhere in the United
States
]Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. "What hapi)ens to the card in the back of the book
when that is filled out? Where do you send that?
^Ir. BLu:\rBERG. May I see it ?
IMr. ^Matthews. Yes. You have seen such cards. Where do you
seiul that?
^fr. BLu:\rBiRG. I believe by the card in the back of the book you
refer to what is designated there as "control card.''
]\Ir. Matthews. That is correct.
]Mr. BLi':\rBERG. That card indicates that tlie member in whose book
that card appears is ])aid up in dues for the first half year of the
year in (juestion. When such payment has taken place the control
card is then filled out and the same thing is done with it as with the
other cards we have talked about. It passes through the hands of
the branch secretary to the membership director, and it serves simply
to indicate then that that member is paid up in dues for the first
half year.
94931 — 10— vol. 12 20
7504 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman, And then the membership director immediately
destroys the record of the payment?
Mr. Bluimberg. That is my impression, yes.
The Chairman. Wait a minnte. You say impression. Do you
know it to be a fact ?
Mr. Blttmbero. I know it for a fact tliat these cards are not kept for
any lenoth of time. They serve aoain. as I said before, simply to
indicate that the member has paid his dues for the first half year.
The Chairiman. And they are eithei- destroyed at once upon receipt
or kept for a very limited period of time?
]Mr. Blumrfro. That is ri<iht.
The Chairman. So that there is no record even kept of the mem-
bers that have paid, no ])ei'manent record? In other words, when
you joined and you ])aid your dues for 6 months
Mr. Blum BERG. Yes.
The Chairman. And you filled out this card giving; the information
that you had paid, and that went to the membership director, he
destroyed it?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes. The individual member who pays dues has
his own receij^t in the form of the dues stamp which is pasted in
the book.
The Chairman. But no one in the party has any record of the
payments of the dues?
Mr. Blumberg. Of the individual members. The total dues pay-
ments are recorded.
The CiiAnniAN. Total clues, but there is no permanent record of the
individual payments of dues?
Mr. Bluimberg. That is rioht. Each branch, through its secretary,
takes care of that problem.
The Chairman. How do they take care of the problem? Do they
kee]3 records, or is it done throuoh memory ?
Mr. Blumberg. It is done through memory.
Mr. Dempsey. Why do you ask for the initiation stamp to be put
on here? Why isn't that from memory, too?
Mr. Blumbeeg. When the member joins u]) he pays an initiation
due of cither 50 cents or 10 cents, depending on his status, employed
or otherAvise.
]Mr. ^Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, is there any record, anywhere,
either in your section or outside it, of the name of the holder of a
membership book in conjunction with the number of the party
membei'ship book ?
Mr. Blumberg. I know of no records, no list or series of lists of
names of members or numbers, indicating that they hold such and
such a membership card.
^Ir. ^Matthews. Will you state that there are not any such records?
Mr. Blumberg. I can only state what I know, and I can only state
I know of no such records existing in our organization.
Mr. Matthews. I haven't used the word list. I am referring to
any Ivind of record, whether they be on separate cards or otherwise.
Is that your understanding of the question. Dr. Blumberg?
Mr. BLt^aiBERG. That is rig] it.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Now, I show you two communications, one dated
March 21, 1940, and the other March 22, 1910,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7505
To All Dii^tricts:
Dkak Comuades:
These letters are signed "Comradely yours, National Office, C. P.,
U. S. A."
I will read the one dated March 22, 1940:
Dh:AK C'OMKADKS: If you have not already doiio so, please send us immediately
the date of your State convention. So far we have lieard from very few
tlistrlots.
M'e liavo been informed that several party membership books have been legally
c-onlisfiited in riiids in Kansas and Misst)uri. The names of these books and
their numbers are :
Leroy Henderson. No. 46812,
Marie Alexander, No. 4G'.)3."').
Be on the look-out for such books.
Did your office receive that conniumication. Mr. Bluniberg?
]\lr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I have previously declined to answer
any question with regard to material taken from our office yesterday.
The Chairman. The Chair requires you to answer the question.
You decline to do so ; is that correct '(
Mr. Blumrerg. Yes: on the assumption it is part of the material
taken yesterday. I have no personal knowledge of this particular
docmnent.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, have you ever received connnunica-
tions from the national office of the Communist Party pointing out
that membership books had been lost and asking you and other dis-
tricts to be on the look-out for such books?
Mr. Blumberg. During the time I have been secretary and handling
such conmninications I have not.
The Chairman. Your answer is j^ou have received no such com-
munications^
^Ir. Blumberg. Yes; diirino; the time I have been State secretarv.
]Mr. Lynch. Did you ever receive any information at any other
time about such lost books?
^Ir. Blumberg. I did not.
^Ir. Lynch. Did yon ever know of such information, whether you
received it personally or not ?
Mr. Blumberg. I think from time to time such information is sent
out by the national office.
Mr. Mattiieavs. Dr. Blumberg, how could such information be
sent out, giving both the name and the number of the book, if there
were not a record of it somewhere?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I said before I decline to answer
any questions with regard to material taken from our office.
The Chairman. That is not with regard to the material
Mr. Blumberg. With regard to the general question, how could
this communication be sent out, I don't know. I did not send the
conmuniication. nor did T receive it.
The Chairman. But you have said that you knew of instances in
which such letters had been sent out advising the different party
officers that membershij) books had l)een lost, giving the serial mimber.
Mr. Blumberg. (iiving the serial number?
Mr. Matthews. And the name.
Mr. Blumherg. (living the serial number and the name. I have
seen copies of such letters in the past.
7506 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Now, he asked you how that could be done, uuless
some record had been kept.
Mr. Blumberg. Well, if the national office sends out blank books
to certain organizations or districts, no doubt it retains a list of the
numbers. If those books are lost or otherwise misplaced, they would
then be able to send out a connnunication concerning the books,
listing the numbers. The only connnunications I have had personal
knowledge of are connnunications listing book numbers, not com-
munications listing both book numbers and names.
The Chairman. What does the letter state with relation to the
information
Mr. Matthews. Here it is.
The Chairman. This letter gives the name of the person, with the
book number. In the case of Lerov Henderson it is No. 46,812, and
in the case of Marie Alexander, 40,935.
Have you ever seen any communication giving both the name and
the number?
Mv. Blumbero. I have not.
The Chairman. Have you ever seen any such communication?
Mr. Blumberg. I have not.
The Chairman. Do you know of such ?
Mr. Blumberg. I do not.
The Chairman. The ones you saw did not have the name and the
numbers; is that correct?
Mr. Blumberg. That is right, and they i-eferred to cases where
books might be lost in transit, or something like that, or otherwise
misplaced.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do you mean the Communist Party national head-
quarters keeps a record of the numbers of books going to various
districts?
Mr. Cohn. He said he supposed so.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. He is asking the witness. The
witness can answer.
Mr. Cohn. The witness has already answered.
Mr. Lynch. Would the Chair announce that the full committee is
present now?
The Chairman. Yes; let the record show that there is now a full
quorum of the committee, and we will proceed from now on as a full
committee. Members present are the chairman, Mr. Voorhis, Mr.
Demjisey, and Mr. Mason.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be marked as ex-
hibit 11 for the record.
(The let<^er referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 11,
Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Bhnnberg, do you make weekly reports per-
taining to membership in the Communist Party of Maryland to
national headquarters ?
Mr. Blumberg. I make weekly reports pertaining to new mem-
bers, the number of new members joining the party! These reports
are sent to New York.
Mr. Matthews. To what address are they sent in New York?
Mr. Blumberg. To the national office of the Communist Party, 35
East Twelfth Street, New York City.
UN-AMERKWX TMJOPAnAXDA ACTIVITIES 7507
Mr. Matthews. Do you make those reports yourself? Do you
uiiike them out ?
Mr. BiAMUEiu;. I check the reports or dictate them to somebody.
Mr. ^Iattiiews. Are you the district achiiiiiistrative secretary of
the Communist Party of Maryland?
IMr. BuMHEKG. I am not now district administrative secretary of
the Connnunist Party of Maryhmd.
Mr. INlATriiEws. Have you been in the past?
Mr. Bli :mbei{g. I have been in the past, prior to the end of October
1939.
Mr. Matthews. For how lono- did you liold that position?
Mr. Blfmberg. I held that position from about the fall of 1937.
Mr. INIatthews. From the fall of 1937 until the fall of 1939?
Mr, Bn^iBERG. That is riirlit.
Mr. Matthews. You were the district administrative secretary of
Maryland?
Mr. Blfmberg. That is ri<i;ht.
Mr. ]Matthews. In the course of your work, you made out a weekly
report to National Headquarters?
jSIr. Blumberg. Indicatino; the number of new members; yes, sir.
Mr. ^Iatthews. From whom did you obtain the information with
lespect to new members recruited?
Mr. Blfmberg. Mr. Chairman, I decline
Mr. Matthews. I mean the official, not the name of the person.
The Chairman. He is not asking the name. He is asking what
official.
Mr. Matthews. What functionary.
]\Ir. Blfmberg. I would i-eceive such reports from the membership
directors of the organization.
The CiiAiRMAX. From the membership directors of what?
Mr. Blfmberg. Of the different organizations or branches.
The Chairman. Does each bi-anch have a membership director?
]Mr. Blfmberg. Most branches it is my impression have a member-
ship director; yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many branches do you have in your district?
Mr. Blfmberg. Approximately 40.
The Chairman. Forty branches in vour district ?
Mr. Blfmberg. Tliat is the approximate figure.
The Chairman. That would be 40 membership directors?
]\rr. Bll':mberg. Yes, sir,
Mr. VooRHis. How man}' in Washington?
The Chairman. Yes. Do you know liow many branches in Wash-
ington?
^Ir. BLF:\rBERG. I do not.
The Chairmax'. You have 40 membership directors. Now, do you
have some director who is over those directors, who has a superior
position ?
Mr. Blfmberg. Yes; it has been previously stated by me that there
is a membersliip director for tlie entire district.
The Chairman. The entire district?
Mr. Blfmberg. That is right.
The Chairman. And the branch directors report to him?
]Mr. Blfmberg. That is right ; they do.
The Chairman. All right.
7508 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ISIr. Matthews. Is Carl Brenn the District Administrative Secre-
tarv at the present time?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer any question
witli regard to any individual other than myself, for reasons pre-
viously stated, that these questions are immaterial
The Chairman. The Chair directs the witness to answer the ques-
tion, and the witness declines; is that correct?
Mr. Blumberg. I do.
Tlie Chairman. All right.
Let me ask you this: do you know Carl Brenn?
Mr. Blumberg. I again decline to answer, Mr. Chairman, any
question with regard to individuals other than myself.
The Chairman. You decline to answer, although the Chair directs
you to do so?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know these reports, Dr. Blumberg?
The Chairman. Indicate what reports you are asking him about
now.
Mr. Matthews. I am going to show him one in particular. It is
an analvsis of new members recruited during the month of Januarv
1910, submitted by A. E. Blumberg, 53 North Eutaw Street. That
refers to you. Dr. Blumberg. Did you make out that report?
Mr. Blumberg. I refuse to answer any questions with regard to
any material removed from our offices in Baltimore yesterday, in a
manner which I believe to be unlawful and unconstitutional.
The Chairman. Have you identified the document?
Mr. Matthews. This will be marked ''Exhibit 12."
(The report referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No, 12,
Blumberg.")
The Chairman. You refuse to answer, although the Chair directs
you so to do?
Mr. Blumberg. On the grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Matthews. This is an analysis of new members, recruited
during the week ending Saturday, March 1, 1940, submitted by A. E.
Blumberg, 501-B North Eutaw Street.
Dr. Blumberg, did you submit that report to the national head-
quarters?
JNIr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I again decline to answer for rea-
sons ])reviousiy stated, on the assumption that this is part of the
material taken from the office.
The Chairman. All right ; the witness declines'to answer, although
the Chair directs him to answer.
Mr. Matthews. Analysis of new members recruited during 2 weeks
ending Saturday. February 14, 1940, submitted by A. E. Blumberg.
501 North Euta'w Street.
Did you submit that report to the national headquarters?
Mr. Blumberg. I again decline to answer the question with regard
to any material removed unlawfully and unconstitutionally from my
office yesterday.
The Chairman. All right ; the witness declines to ansAver, although
directed to do so by the chairman.
UN-A.Mi:iU('AX I'K()I'A(;AXDA ArTIVITIES 7509
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Bliiinbero-, yon are familiar with the cards
wliich are calkMl section tile cards, are yon not ^
Mr. Bli'mukko. In the city of Baltimore I recall that we had cards
printed bearing" the desionation ''Section file cai'd."
The Chaikman. What information was i-eqnired on those cards?
^fr. Blt'Mbehg. I can't recall ollliand, bnt it contained a nnmber
of thinos — indnstry, a<ie, occn[)ation, miscellaneons information.
The Chairman, I want to ask some qnestions in that connection.
On this card did yon reqnire a member to state his name?
^Ir. Blumberu. Mr. Chairman, with re<2:ard to the cards I am talk-
ing about
The Chairman. The cards yon are talking about?
^ir. Blumbekg. I have no knowledoe of those cards ever having
been used.
The Chairman. I am asking you now, on the cards you are talk-
ing about, did you require the member to state his name?
Air. Blumrfrg. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Did you rec|uire him to state whether he was male,
female, Xegro, white ^
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. You did require that?
Mr. Bllmberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Did it require the member to state what his occu-
pation was?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Did it require liim to state the industry in which
he was working ?
]\Ir. Bi.uMBERG. Yes.
The Chair:man. "Whether employed or unemployed?
]Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
The Chairman. Did he ask the member to say whether or not he
was a member of any trade union ?
^Iv. BrrrsiBERG. I think so.
The Chairman. Did it ask whether the union was C. I. O. or
A. F. of L. ?
^Ir. Blumberg. As I recall, I think the question was probably put
this wav: "Is it C. I. O., A. F. of L.. or independent?"
The Chairman. Did it ask for the name of the union, the name
of the local ?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't recall whether it asked for the name of
the union or local, other than the general designation — C. T. O.
The Ch\ir:man. Did it ask whether or not the individual was a
paid official in a union ?
Mr. Bi,i-:mberg. I don't recall whether such question appeared on
the cards I have in mind.
The Chair:man. Did it require him to state whether or not he was
a war veteran? Did you ask that?
^fr. Blumberg. I don't think so.
The Chairman. Did it ask whether or not he was a paid official
in mass organizations?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes: T think it did.
The CHAnniAN. Did it ask whetlier or not he was a member of
any of the oiganizations. naming the Workers Alliance, the I. L. D.,
7510 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the F. S. U., the American League, the Tenants Or<»;anization, the
P. T. A.? Did it require the member to ans^Yer whether or not he
was a member of any of those oro^anizations ?
ISIr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Did it ask the member whether or not any disci-
plinary action had ever been taken against him?
Mr. Blumberg. I think so.
The Chairman. Now, will yon state what the purpose of getting
that information was?
Mr. Blumberg. As I recall, the purpose of getting periodically
such information concerning the party members is to determine in
round numbers the composition of the party membership at the time
in question.
The Chairman. That was the only purpose?
I\Ir. Blumberg. That was the only purpose.
The Chairman. Then, why didn't you go further and ask with
reference to other organizations in the country? Why did you
designate those particular organizations?
Mr. Bluiniberg. It seems to me there was no particular reason for
this, because if I recall correctly there Avas this blanket designation,
"Do you belong to this, that, or the other organization?'' So that
any kind of organization
The Chairman. Why did you specify the Workers Alliance, the
I. L. D., the F. S. U., "American League, the Tenants Organization,
the L. N. P. L., and the P. T. A. ?
Mr. Blumberg. Well, these were offered simply as samples of the
types of organizations.
The Chairman. Just as samples of the organizations ?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes; and in each case, and perhaps for this addi-
tional reason, unemployment organizations, or organizations con-
cerned with peace and civil liberties, and that type of thing, the
organization wanted to know how many members belong to those
different organizations existing in the cities. But, of course, infor-
mation was presented likewise with respect to all organizations.
Mr. Matthews. What would be done with these cards after they
were filled out, Mr. Blumberg?
Mr. Blumberg. The cards I am talking about, that I recall having
been piinted, were not in fact used, to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Were not what?
Mr. Blumberg. Were not used to my knowledge.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Were they printed in Baltimore?
Mr. Blumberg. They were.
Mr. Matthews. Was the general form and content of the card
made uj) by you or some State secretary, or somebody in Maryland?
Mr. Blumberg. You are referring now to the card called "section
file card''?
Mr. Matthews. That is right.
Mr. Blumberg. Dated what year?
Mr. Matthews. 1939 and 1940.
Mr, Blumberg. 1939. Such cards printed in 1989 would presum-
ably have been printed under the direction of the membership
director of the district at that time.
Mr. Matthews. AVould he follow a pattern provided by national
headquarters ?
rX-A-Mi:UI('AN PKOI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7511
Mr. Blumbkro. I don't know of any such ))attorn.
Mr. Matthews. In tlu' print in<>- of this carcH
Mr. Blumbkro. I don't know of any such pattern.
Mr. Ma TTHF-ws. Have you ever seen such cards from other districts
in the I'nitetl States?
Mr. BiAMBERG. I have not.
Mr. Matthews And you don't know whether he was following
such a pattern or not ?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't know.
^Vfr. Matthews. I ask you. Dr. Blumbero;, if you can identify this
as the card about which you have been speaking.
Mr. Blumbero. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer any questions
with respect to material tlint was unlawfully and unconstitutionally
taken from the offices in Baltimore.
The Chairman. All right : the witness declines to answer, although
directed to do so.
Mr. Matthews. This I will ask to be mai-ked "Exhibit No. 15."
(The card referred to was thereupon marked "Exhibit No. 15,
Blumberg.")
Mr. Matthews. Don't you know, as a matter of fact, Dr. Blum-
berg. this is the standard card used throughout the United Slates
for such purpose?
^Ir. Blumbero. I decline to answer any questions relating to ma-
terials unlawfully and unconstitutionally taken from the office in
Baltimore yesterday.
The Chairman. All right : he declines to answer, although directed
to do so.
He is asking you with regard to throughout the United States,
making it a broader question. You still decline to answer?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes; but he is asking about this particular card.
The Chairman. Let me ask it this way. The card which he has
been testifying about, or the card which happens to have jiracti-
cally the same information as the card you have been testifying
about, is it a fact that that card is used generally throughout the
Ignited States by the Communist Party?
Mr. Blumberg. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Matthews. Dr. Blumberg, in your work as district adminis-
trative secretary, didn't you meet (m specified occasions with other
district administrative secretaries from other parts of the Ignited
States ?
Mr. Blumberg. I did not, not with all district administrative
secretaries.
Mr. Matthews. I did not say with all of them: I said with others.
Mr. Bn'MBEKG. I liave sometimes attended meetings where other
administrative secretaries were present.
Mr, Matthews. At meetings of administrative secretaries?
Mr. Blimberg. Xot of administrative secretaries. I know of no
time when meetings of administrative secretaries as such took place.
Wiiat I am saying is. I have attended meetings at which other admin-
isti'ative secretaries, one or more, may have been present.
Mr. Matthews. Have you attended meetings where other adminis-
trative secretaries were present and where tlie question of how best
to keep records was discussed ?
]\Ir. Blumberg. No : I have not.
7512 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. AVhere were these meetings held that you refer to ?
Mr. Blumherg. Which meetings?
Mr. Matthews. The meetings which you attended with other dis-
trict administrative secretaries.
Mr. Blumberg. I have attended a number of meetings in the city
of New York, for example; conferences, conventions, that sort of
thing.
The Chairman. May I ask a few questions before we pursue this
at length ?
Doctor, what university are you a graduate of ?
Mr. Blumberg. I graduated from Johns Hopkins University in
1926, where I secured my A. B. degree. Do you wish further details ?
The Chairman. Yes; I am interested.
Mr. Blumberg. During the year 1926-27 I was engaged in graduate
work in philosophy at Johns Hopkins University. In the year 1927-
28 I held a scholarship at Yale University and secured my M. A.
degree at Yale in 1928; in the year 1928-29 I held a field-service
scholarship to the University of Paris in France and studied there;
in the year 1929-30 I was engaged in study at the University of
Vienna, from which place I secured my doctor's degree in philosophy.
The final year of the academic record was the year of 1929-30, when
I attended the University of Vienna in what was known as Austria,
where I secui'ed my doctor's degree in philosophy in July of 1930.
The Chairman. From what high school did you graduate?
Mr. Blumberg. I graduated from Baltimore City College, in the
city of Balimore. That is a high school, even though it is called a
college.
The Chairman. When did vou become interested in communism?
Mr. Blumberg. Oh, 1932.
The Chairman. 1932?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Did your interest arise through your own inde-
pendent study of the question, or was it a long time in forming^ Did
it form over a long period of time ?
INIr. BlI'Mberg. My interest in the labor movement and in variouf:
movements designed to improve the conditions of the people goes
back a number of years. The reading of various books from time
to time during college years. But I took no active part beyond hold-
ing membership in a liberal club at the university, as an undergrad-
uate. I took no part in any activity until 1932. I believe I can say
that I came into the Communist movement on the basis of my reading
and study, and on the basis of my observation of conditions.
The Chairman. \Vliat organizations outside the Communist Party
do you belong to?
Mv. Blumberg. At the present time I belong to no organization
outside the Communist Party.
The Chair^ian. Have you ever been a member of the American
League for Peace and Democracy?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes ; I was a member of the American League for
Peace and Democracy.
The Chairman. Did you hold any official position at any time in
that league?
Mr. Blumbehg. I worked on the Baltimore executive conmiittee,
but I held no title, as chairman, or secretary.
UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7513
Tlie CuAiinrAx. You were a nieinber of the Baltimore executive
conuuittee of the league i
]Mr. Blt'mberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever speak under the auspices of the
lea.iiut' ^
Mr. Blumberg. Well, perhaps one of those present here can very
readily testify. I recall once havino; presided at a meetino; of tlie
American Leaaue for Peace and Democracy at which J. B. Matthews
was the featured speaker.
The Chairman. Did you ever speak under the auspices of the
league i That was my question.
Mr. Blumberg. I was asked to preside at that meeting.
The Chairman. Outside of that meeting, did you ever speak at
iinv meeting?
]\Ir. BiA^iBERG. Representino; them in any particular meeting?
The Chairman. Speaking under the auspices of the league- at any
time.
Mr. Blfmberg. I don't lecall any other occasion^
The Chairman. You don't recall any other occasion?
Mr. Blumberg. Xo.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the International Workers
Order?
^Ir. Blumberg. Xo. I took a membership in that organization —
I applied for a membership last month.
The Chairman. You never had
Mr. Blu:mberg. But never previously had any connection with the
organization.
The Chair^ian. Were you a member at any time of the Interna-
tional Labor Defense ?
Mr. Bll'mberg. Never.
The Chairman. You have never been a member of any labor union,
have you ?
Mr. Blumberg. I was a member of the Baltimore Teachers' Union,
affiliated with the American Federation of Teachers, for several
years, but my membership lapsed, roughly, a year and a half ago.
The Chairman. Did you ever hold any official position in that
organization?
]Mr. Blumberg. I think the first year I was vice president of the
local. My recollection is rather hazy. That was some 3, 4, or 5
years ago, but I did serve on that executive committee for a tempo-
rary period.
The Chairman. You served on the executive committee ?
yiv. Blumberg. Of the Baltimore local.
The CiiAiR^LVN. Of the Baltimore local. And is that the only
union you were ever affiliated with?
]Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
The Chairman. You have never been a member of tlie Workers'
Alliance ?
Mr. Blumberg. That is right.
The Chairman. What about Labor's Xon-Partisan League?
Have you ever been affiliated with it in any respect?
Mr. Blumberg. That is a difficult (luestion to answer. There was
a committee established by Labor's Xon-Partisan League in Balti-
more. That was about 2 or 3 vears asfo. At that time I held no
7514 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
position in the Commnnist Party and was elected by the Teachers
Union at that time to represent tliem in the city committee of Labor's
Non-Partisan League for Bakimore city. I have never as an indi-
vichial joined Labor's Non-Partisan Lea<>:ue.
The Chairman. Have you ever been a member or hekl any posi-
tion in connection with the national organization of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Blumberg. I have never.
The Chairman. Have you ever served in the capacity of delegate
to any of their conventions?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes; I once attended a convention, but that, of
course, was not a national — I attended as delegate of our district
organization.
The Chairman. Since you have been a member of the Communist
Party, which I believe was since 1932
Mi-. -Blumberg. 1933.
The Chairman. Have you ever been outside the United States?
Mr. Blumberg. No ; I have never been outside of the United States
during that time. I have been in this country continuously since
December of 1930, when I returned from the T^niversity of Vienna.
The Chairman. Did you know Mr. Dozenberg?
Mr. Blumberg. I never met anyone by the name of Dozenberg.
The Chairman. You never met him?
Mr. Blumberg. No; the only knowledge I have of the existence
of such a person is from what I have seen in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet Mr. Powers, who testified
before the committee, I believe, yesterday?
Mr. Bli^mberg. I have met Mr. Powers on occasions. I recall one
occasi(m, I think it was possibly last September in Chicago, at a
meeting.
The Chairman. You are acquainted, are you not, with the section
organizers for your district ?
Mr. Blumberg. The term "sections organizers''?
The Chairman. Yes, sir,
Mr. Blumberg. I am acquainted with the term "section organizer.'^
The Chairman. Do you have section organizers?
Mr. Blumberg. In our district we have no section organizers.
The Chairman. Who takes the place of section organizers?
Mr. Blumberg. AVe have city secretaries for the two cities.
The Chairman. A city secretary for Washington and a city secre-
tary for Baltimore?
Mr, Blumberg. Baltimore; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who is tlie city secretary for Washington?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chaiiman, I decline to answer any question
identifying any individual.
The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer the question.
You know who he is?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer the question.
The Chairman. I say you know who the city secretary is?
Mr. Blumberg. My answer is the same : I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You decline to say whether or not you know who
he is?
Mr. Blumberg. I decline to answer any question with regard to
individuals other than myself.
I
UX-A.MKKKAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7515
The Chairman. I am not now askinir you who the individual is;
I am askinff von if vou know who he is. I am not asking for the
name.
Mr. Blfmberg. ISIr. Chairman. I am acquainted with
The Chairman. Now, do you understand? I am asking you now
do you know wlio the city secretary of Washinoton is.
^Ir. Blumberg. Surely.
The Chairman. You do know?
]\rr. Blumberg. I do know.
The Chairman. Now. I ask you to ^rive tlie committee the name
of the city secretary of the city of "\Vashin<it<)n.
Mr. Blumberg. And I decline to answer the question.
The Chairman. Ahhou<>h the Chair directs you to do so?
]\Ir. Blumberg. For the reasons already stated; yes.
The Chairman. Do 30U know ]\Iartin Young?
Mr. Blumberg. I don't know an individual by the name of Martin
Young.
The Chairman. Do vou know an individual bv the name of Leon
Piatt?
Mr. Blumberg. No.
Tlie Chairman. You don't know anyone by that name?
^Iv. Blumberg. No.
The Chair:man. Are you acquainted with the secretaries of your
various branches?
]Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
The Chairman. You know who they are?
Mr. Blumberg. Most of them; yes, sir.
The Chairman. State to the committee the names of the secre-
taries of your branches, or as many names as you can.
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman. I decline to present to this com-
mittee the names of any individuals.
The Chairman. The Chair directs you to do so.
^Ir. Blumberg. I decline to present to this committee the names of
jiny individuals identified with the Communist movement on the
grounds already stated; on the ground that such would lead to the
establishment of a blacklist, and intimidation
The Chairman. We will have to adjourn over until tomorrow
morning.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Voorhis. Dr. Blumberg. I just want to ask one or two ques-
tions before we adjourn. You sav vou joined the Communist Partv
in 1938. I believe?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. YooRHis. And evidently you have had a very remarkable educa-
tion and have a highly trained mind. Since 1982 there have been two
sharp changes, have there not, in what is known as the Conununist
line?
Afr. Blumierg. Do you wisli me to answer the question ?
Mr. VooRiiis. Yes; I would like to have youi- answer.
Mr, Bli'Mberg. Since the s])ring of 1988 there have been a number
of changes in what is popularly termed "the Communist Party line."
By the so-called Communist Party line T understand not so much the
basic objective of the Conununist movement — that is, the reorganiza-
tion of society along the lines of a socialist economy — but rather the
7516 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
immediate aims and objectives in a oiven situation, which will vary
from time to time, depending upon developments.
During this entire period, as I understand it, the Communist Party
has always had as its basic aim the establishment of a socialist economy.
Mr. VooRHis. I undertand that.
Mr. Blumberg. And it has always further maintained that such
a socialist econom}' could be established only at such time as the major-
ity of the people in the countries involved support that aim.
Mr. VooRHis. But my question was whether there had not been two
sharp changes.
Mv. Blumberg. I am coming to that. Now, in carrying on our ac-
tivities designed to create a better understanding of our aims, and so
forth, we are concerned not simply with the question of the eventual
fistablishment of socialism, we are likewise concerned with what we
call all of the immediate needs of the mass of the people. Now, with
regard to these immediate needs, these immediate demands, they have
been chiefly such things as the question of peace, such things as the
question of jobs, such things as the question of maintenance of civil
liberties. In carrying on the struggle for such things, the character of
that struggle, the specific line, as you say, will depend upon a given
situation.
^Ir. VooRHis. Could I interrupt you there?
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. What I want to get at is whether there have not been
two sharp changes. Have there been or not?
Mr. Blumberg. I am coming to that. I want first to place your
question
Mr. VooRHis. I would like to get to it as quickly as we can. Have
there been two such changes?
Mr. Blumberg. With the coming to power of Hitler in Germany,
in the spring of 1933, many changes took place in the entire labor
movement. Socialist. Communist, and elsewhere. These changes be-
came formulated in the course of the vears 1934 and 1935 into a gen-
eral program, a program designed immediately to defeat, to stop, the
advance of fascism.
Mr. VooRHis. Yes ; as represented primarily by Hitler in Germany ;
is that right ?
Mr. Blumberg. In carrying on its struggles against fascism the
Communist Party throughout that period pointed out that the ad-
A^ances that were then being made by the Rome-Berlin totalo axis,
the so-called Fascist axis, were facilitated by the policy of the British
Imperialist Government, the policy known as appeasement. So in
continuing our struggle against fascism and war, major attention
was given to the question of the so-called appeasement policy, which
we termed a policy of collaboration.
Mr. VooRHis. All right. The first change in the party line, then^
was a change in the older tactics, which might be termed revolutionary
tactics to a tactic of collaboration, with a view to stopping Hitler iii
his movements ; is that right ?
Mr. Blumberg. No ; that is not what I said.
Mr. VooRHis. I think it was pretty close to what you said.
Mr. Blumberg. No; I don't think it was even close, if you will
excuse me. The Communist Party never in my opinion has "changed
rX-AMERK AX PROPAO.AXDA ACTIVITIES 7517
from so-calltHl revolutionary tactics to so-called any other tactics.
The Coninnmist Party has always sou<>;ht for the estahlishment of
socialism. Perhaps what yon are referring to is this: Prior to the
spring of Id'S?) there were certain phrases, such as "The united front
fi-om below,"' and j^hrases of that ty]>e. which served to indicate some-
thing with regard to a relationship between the Connnunist and other
groups in the labor movement at that time. The failure
Mr. VooRHis. After that had changcnl
Ml'. BT.r:srRERO. I^p to that period the Communist Party, for ex-
ample, did not see a possibility for a united front with the Socialist
Party policy.
Mr. VooijHis. All right. You have described what went on in the
change in party lines because of Hitler and how an effort was made
to oppose the growth of fascism as represented by Hitler. Later on,
after the signing of the Soviet Pact, that changed things. My ques-
tion is this : AVasn't it difficult for you, as well educated a man as you
are, to change all of a sudden from a policy directed at opposition
to Hitler over a policy of defense of that virtual alliance between the
Soviet Union and Nazi Germany? Wasn't that difficult for you^
Mr. RLrisrBERG. In discussing this, the difficulty is you cannot
answer such in vol veil questions in one or two sentences.
]Mr. Vc'ORiiis. I am just asking whether that was difficult or not.
yir. BLrMBERG. What I want to say is, during the period from
1934--35 down to the fall of 1939, the Communist policy was support
for a collective effort, or front, designed to stop an}' aggression.
Mr. VcoRnis. Designed to stop any aggression? Just a minute.
You mean by that you are opposed to any aggression?
Mr. Blumberg. Faced with the fact of the recent
Mr. YooRHis. Are you opposed to any aggression?
Mr. Blumberg. Faced with the fact of rising Fascist aggression
tlie Communist Party throughout the world pointed out the one way
of preventing this process from resulting in a large-scale world war
was through the establishment of a peace front. They worked hard
to try to bring about that peace front, and Avhen because of the activ-
ity of. in particular, the British Imperialist Government, the peace
front was made impossible, a new situation confronted the world.
This new situation had as its salient feature the fact that a war had
broken out between England and France on the one hand and Ger-
many on the othei-.
Now, unless that war — Conmumists, myself included, quickly came
to the conclusion that that war was an imperialist war, that is, a war
for profit and plunder, and not a war for democracy or civilization
or any other praiseworthy motive.
Mr. YooRHis. You recognize, do you not, that the importance of
the Xazi-Tokyo negotiation has contributed to that war
Mr. Blumberg. The thing that prompted that war
Mr. CoHx. ]Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we have gone far
afield?
Mr. Voorhis. I agree with you thoroughly.
^Ir. CoHX. May I say these questions are asking for the opinions
of the witness, which are not in the province of the examination.
Mr. YooRHis. It is quite difficult to get the answers. All I am
trying to get at
7518 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CoHN. May I say this; these are very complicated questions
that would require answers at fjreat length. If you would like to
have them off the record, the witness will be glad to discuss them
with you, but this is an examination limited in scope.
Mr. VooRHis. All right ; I will ask this question. I hoped to get
an answer to see how a man of your intellectual attainments could
have his mind shifted so suddenly from a position here to a position
over here, which it seems to me at least is quite opposite.
Let me ask you this question. Doctor, and I won't ask any more.
You spoke of the preservation of civil liberties?
]\Ir. Blumbeeg. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. Do you stand for the preservation of civil liberties
in all nations of the world, every nation of the world?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, the Communists, as I understand
it, are in favor of the preservation of civil liberties.
The Chairman. Everywhere, he said, in all nations.
Mr. Blumberg. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. Do you think that can be reconciled with a dictator-
ship of any sort?
Mr. Blumberg. Again, Mr. Chairman, you are asking a question
which cannot be answered in one sentence, two sentences, or three
sentences, but which would take a lengthy conversation.
Mr. VooRHis. Then I will pass it up.
Mr. Blumberg. If we wish to discuss these things informally, I
will be very glad to spend hours informally discussing them.
Mr. VooRHis. Let me ask you this : How many secret organizations,
organizations where the membership is not known through the public,
do you believe it is possible for a democracy to stand? The reason I
ask that c{uestion is this; we have had other people with whom I
think you would flatly disagree, where we have asked the question
about why they did not want to reveal their membership, and so
on and so forth, and they have taken the position that they had to
maintain a secret organization in order to combat communism. My
question is how many such secret organizations do you believe a
democracy can stand?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me the question you are
asking is not so much a question of how many organizations; it is
not a question certainly of members, but rather of what kind of
organization we are discussing.
]Mr. VooRHis. I mean secret organizations that operate without
peo])le knowing anything about them.
Mr. Blumberg. Since the primary thing to ask of an organization
is what their ideas, aims, and objectives are, if these aims and objec-
tives are inconsistent with democracy, that is one problem; if they
are not, that is another problem.
]\Ir. VooRHis. Do you believe the aims and objectives of the Com-
munist Party are consistent with democracy?
Mr. Blumberg. I believe the aims and objectives of the Commu-
nist Party are inconsistent with the maintenance of the capitalist
system, but they are perfectly consistent with the maintenance of
what I call democracy.
Mr. VooRHis. Civil liberties, the right of everyone to have his
opinion, the right even to criticize the Government^ —
UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIA^TIES 7519
Mr. HLUMnERG. Noav, ^ou are askinj; me to define what is meant
by civil liberties. That ao;ain I am forced to say is a complicated
and involved question.
^Ir. ^'o(>RIIIS. I ask yt>n to inchule all those thinf^s in j'our answer.
INIr. Blumbekg. A*iain I say if you wish me to discuss what are civil
liberties, we can do so.
The CiiATiJArAX. You are an American citizen, are you?
Mr. l^LUMUKKG. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRiMAx. Your alleo-iance is to this country?
Mr. Blumberg. I am an American citizen.
The Chahoiax. You hold your allegiance to this country?
Mr. Bli -AiBERG. I don't knoAv what you mean by allegiance.
The CnAiR;>iAN. In case of a war between the United States ana
Russia, would you support the United States?
Mr. Otiiix. May I say this is all objectionable?
The Chair:man. You can state your objection.
Mr. CoHX. I would like to state my olDJection. Of course, I can't
state my objection with the <ravel poundino;.
The Chairman. All rijjht ; you may state it.
Mr. Coirx. I wish to state the reason for m}^ objection.
The Chairmax\ All right.
Mr. CoHN. The reason for my objection is this is a hypothetical
question. This is not a question that seeks to elicit from the witness
any matters of fact, but only matters of opinion on hypothesis, and
as such I object to the question.
The Chairmax. Do you decline to answer whether or not if the
T'nited States were in a war on the side of the Allies, with Russia on
the opjjosite side, you would support the United States?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I have enough confidence in the
American people to believe that they will not enter an imperialistic
Avar on the side of the Allies.
The Chairman. If they should, would you support the United
States in a war against Russia?
Mr. Blumberg. ^Nlr. Chairman, as I have said before, I have enough
confidence in the American people to believe they will refuse a second
time to be drawn into an imperialistic war.
The Chairman. We may be drawn into it, and if we are, whether
Ave ought to be or not. Avould you support the United States in a
Avar against Russia?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, that of course, as I say, is a hypo-
thetical (luestiou
The Chairman. All right, hypothetical as you please; if it becomes
a fact. Avhere Avould your allegiance be, to the United States or to
the Soviet Union ?
Mr. CoHX. I rencAv my objection to this question.
The Chairaiax. That is a simple question to ansAver.
Mr. CoHX. It is a (|uestion based upon asstnnption and hypothesis.
The Chairman. If the United States Avere to enter Avar with Rus-
sia on the opposite side, would you support the United States in such
a Avar?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, as I liaA'e said before, I am con-
vinced that the {)eople of the Ignited States
949.31— 40— vol. 12 21
7520 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You won't answer the question as to whether or
not you would support this country?
Mr, Blumberg. The people of the United States will understand
the issues clearly enough to refuse a second time to be dragged into
a war for profits.
The Chairman. But you decline to sa}^ whether or not in the event
we did enter such a war you would support the United States or not?
Mr. Blumberg. Mv. Chairman. I am not able to say now what I
would do under a lot of hypothetical situations. What I am con-
cerned about today, at present, is doing everything possible to pre-
vent the American people from once more being made
The Chairman. Do j^ou know of any circumstances under which
the United States would enter a war with Russia on the opposite
side under which you would support the United States ?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I can conceive of no good reasons
for the United States entering
The Chairman. I say, can you conceive of any circumstances in
which the United States would enter a war with Russia on the op-
posite side, under which you would support this country?
Mr. Blumberg. Mr. Chairman, I can conceive of no circumstances
in this country, short of a reactionary usurpation of power, of taking
power away from the people
The Chairiman. That is not answering the question.
Mr. Lynch. I suggest you direct him to answer the simple ques-
tion, and if he does not answer, to take action for contempt against
him.
The Chairman. I am asking you the direct question, if the United
States entered a Avar with Russia on the opposite side, would you sup-
port the United States ?
Mv. Blumberg. I will have to refuse to answer such a hypothetical
question, beyond the indications I have given already.
The Chairman. All right, the witness refuses to answer the ques-
tion, although directed to do so.
The committee stands adjourned subject to the call of the Chair.
(Thereupon, at 5:45 p. m., the committee adjourned, subject to the
call of the Chairman.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, APRIL 2, 1940
House of Representatives,
Special Committee to Investigate Un-American AcTI^^TIEs,
Washington^ D. C.
A hearing of the Special Committee to Investigate Un-American
Activities convened at 10:30 a. m. in the caucus room of the House
Office Building, Washington, D. C, the Honorable Martin Dies,
chairman, presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Congressman Dickstein has requested an opportunity to present
to the committee certain evidence which he has gathered relative to
the Christian Front and Christian ]Mobilizers and I believe the Silver
Shii'ts. The committee has subpenaed a number of the leaders of
the Christian Front and the Christian Mobilizers, forthwith sub-
penas, and they are to be brought here in the very near future, in
just a few days, for examination, but before we can hear the leaders
of the Christian Front we liave witnesses from Boston that we must
hear tomorrow, and likewise several other witnesses that we will have
to hear, but we plan to begin hearing the Christian Front leaders
within the next few days.
I have explained to Congressman Dickstein the procedure of the
connnittee which we have been compelled to adopt to ask questions
and confine witnesses' testimony to answers to questions rather than
to permit statements to be made by witnesses. We are compelled to
follow that rule because in the past we found that permitting wit-
nesses to make statements was rather an unwise procedure, and of
course in the case of Congressman Dickstein and Members of Con-
gress there is a different situation, and yet we fear that it would make
a precedent and open the door and there will be so many who will
want to make statements
STATEMENT OF HON. SAMUEL DICKSTEIN, REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK
Mr. Dickstein. I am prepared to answer any questions, if I can,
but I think that you ought to give me a little latitude in view of
my study of this situation, and I hope not to be long-winded, and
I want to come down to tlie point as fast as possible.
The Chairman. Now. let us determine, Mr, Dickstein, can't we
develop it through question-and-answer form with latitude?
7521
7522 UN-AMERICAN PllOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. DiCKSTEix. I should like to pick up the trail of Pel ley's testi-
mony when he left this committee and following that through with
certain documentary evidence that will be identified as autlientic,
which in my opinion he has not told this committee all of the things
that the committee should know, which in my opinion after a study
of man}' files which I have here and will turn them over to the
committee, original files, so that there will be no question about the
authenticity.
The Chaiemax. Pardon me just a second.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. I do not mind being interrupted for any questions
if it is important, but I thought that you' ought to give me an
opportunity; I just have a 3-page statement from the evidence that
I have here, and not my own statement, and then I will take file by
file and point out to you what the facts are and you can question me
in any way that you want.
Mr. Thomas. It is a very short statement.
The Chairman. I think that we ought to state very clearly what
I am thinking about is the precedent established, that while we are
allowing latitude to Members of Congress to appear, we simply
cannot make that a rule of the committee. In the case of Members
of Congress, you have a different situation, of course, and greater
latitude will be alloMed than would be in the case of an ordinary
witness and yet at the same time we want to be certain that any
documents introduced are either originals or proven photostatic
copies or proven copies of the originals, so that you could make that
plain.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. I am very mindful of the position of the com-
ndttee. I just want to identify myself to this extent, that I have
been the vice chairman of the committee known as the McCormack-
Dickstein committee, which was the result of a bill passed in this
House on March 20, 1934. A committee was appointed, and I had
the honor to serve as vice chairman. I want to call attention to your
committee, that our committee terminated its functions the end of
December of 1934, or January 2, 1935, so that that committee only
had about 4 months of actual investigation. I have heard the
testimony of
Mr. Dempsey. On that, did your committee request the House to
extend the life of the committee ?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. Yes; and we had a gentleman by the name of
Mr. Blanton who made the objection
Mr. Dempset. He was only one of 435 Members.
The Chairman. You made a unanimous-consent request?
Mr. DicKSTEix. Yes; for the reason at that time we found it
difficult to examine certain Communists who refused to answer ques-
tions while Congress was not in session, and when the subpena was
issued outside of the District of Columbia and I tried to indict them
for contempt
Mr. Dempsey. That is not the question. Why did not the House
continue that committee?
The Chairmax. They did not make any effort to get it continued?
Mr. Dickstein. We made an effort by unanimous consent, and
that was objected to.
Mr. Dempsey. The Dies committee would have been objected to by
unanimous consent, too.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7523
Mr. DicKSTEiN. That is true.
Then I was prepared to «io before the Rules Committee, as I had
ori«iinally when I found that I thought for the best interests of the
country that we ouaht to amend the hiw so as to put some teeth in
these invest igatina* b(jdies. Under the old law, if we subpenaed a
witness outside of the District of Columbia and he refused to testify,
that was the reason for the delay of a year and some months before
I was able to
The Chaikmax. Let us get into this thing, gentlemen.
Mr. DiCKSTEix. In 1934, Charles Kramer of California was a
member of our committee. He was the one that we authorized to
go to Asheville, N. C, and subpena certain documents, and we have
])ractically taken under subpena quite a load of documents from
William Dudley Pelley or the Silver Shirts or Silver Rangers or
whatever they call themselves. Some of these documents I could
not locate.
When Pelley had testified before this committee, I felt as I recall
it, that he had not given this committee all of the surrounding facts
and circumstances and the tie-ups between certain groups in this
country, and from these documents I want to make this brief state-
ment and then I will proceed very briefly to one document after
another and I will have the originals.
William Dudley Pelley. spiritualist, mystic, "red-baiter," Jew-
hater — that is from the record — and union buster, also America's
"sawdust" Caesar, founder of the League of Liberation, Gallahad
College, League for Christian Economics, the Silver Shirts, the
Silver Rangers, Silver Legion, is today a self-styled American
"fuehrer," Fascist No. 1, at present at the head of the Christian
Party, and the Council of Safety.
It is his aim to replace the x^merican democracy with a regime
patterned after Hitler's Ger»nany.
Beginning in 1933, in un-American fields of activity, he organized
the Silver Legion and actively cooperated with the Nazi organiza-
tions in America.
In California, the ]McCormack-Dickstein committee revealed that
Nazi leaders Schwinn, Themlitz, and Winterhaldter divided their
activities on un-American activity fronts, together with Pelley.
Pelley's cliief lieutenant and so-called foreign adjutant and head-
quarters organizer, Von Lilienthal-Toal, was an employee of the
Cerman steamship lines, controlled by the German Government,
and he worked with Pelley.
Pelley's so-called Council of Safety was to form a vast grapevine
system covering the whole United States. The result of this grape-
vine system has led to the hooded and secretive organization of
various bands of terrorists in the United States, throughout the
country.
The instilling of the hate ])rograni and alien baiting, plus the false
ballyhoo of the tlireat of Communism, has inspired these hooded men
to carry on acts against citizens endangering their lives and endan-
gering the very basis of democracy, namely, the Bill of Rights.
I theiefore charge William Dudle}' Pelley with treason against
the United States Government. He has attempted since 1933 to
overthi'ow the American Government through hundreds of revo-
lutionary and un-American tactics. His pet theory was the infiltra-
7524 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
tion of the Nazi and Fascist doctrines into the organized Army
quarters of the United States Government.
I charge that he was tied up with a number of Army officers in
these United States which I have documentary evidence to prove.
His phm was, as stated to a former congressional investigator,
Richard Rollins and a Miss Waring, to take over, first, the National
Guard of the 48 States. He also stated that his men were armed
and that he had been recruiting former Army men of which the files
I have will bear that out, many of whom are in the American Legion
also.
He stated to these investigators while in the office of one Royal
Scott Gulden, the head of The Order of '76, that is another outfit,
that the time would come when aliens would be shot down all over the
country, and by the way, for the information of this committee,
since the activity of this committee, and the renew^al of this investi-
gation, the Order of '76 jumped out of the window. They stopped
doing business, and they disbanded.
I charge Pelley with being the motivating force behind the Facist
desire on the part of men of the Army, men like Colonel Moseley
and others that I will mention from records only, to lead a revolt
backed by Army men against the Government of the United States.
Pelley has succeeded in his desire to take over Army men in a
marked degree. In Detroit, he worked with Captain Rubley, who
was then using armories and horses to train Silver Rangers for the
Silver Shirts.
In Cleveland, his organizers met with Army officers. This same
procedure worked in most of the largest cities of the country. In
Oklahoma, a Ranger Division was established, whose members were
uniformed and armed. In California, a Silver Shirt rifle club was
headed by Willard Kemp. According to Pelley, his organization
numbered 3,000,000. Actually, it has been estimated as near 75,000.
He was well acquainted with the background of the organization
of the Black Legion, having known Mr. Effinger in Lima, Ohio, and
Dr. Sheppard, the chief organizers. His influence on hundreds of
smaller Fascist American organizations is well known, chiefly among
these are the Crusaders for America in Chattanooga, Tenn., Reverend
Winrod's group of Kansas, the Christian Mobilizers of New York,
and the Christian Front groups throughout the country.
As recently as February 5, 1940, at a meeting of the Christian
Mobilizers at Austrian Hall, 245 East Eighty-second Street, New
York City, national leader, Joseph McWilliams, made the statement
that Pelley had been very anxious to meet with him while in hiding
from the authorities.
The Mobilizer group is a Fascist organization, having 160 drilled
men and a so-called private army of "storm troopers," along the same
lines that Pelley had instilled in his Silver Legion. Besides Irish
Republican sympathizers in this movement of McWilliams there were
several members of the Silver Shirts and the German-American
Bund. The mention of Pelley's testifying before the Dies Com-
mittee was greeted with great a])plause by McWilliams' followers.
William Bishop, recently arrested by the Department of Justice
and indicted for treason against the Government with 16 others, was
well known to Pelley. This AVilliam Bishop was a former member'
of the Order of '76, and the Silver Shirts. It was in such men as
UX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7525
tliese that William Diulley Pelley instilled the theory of armed revo-
liitit)!!. Xo man in recent years has created so much hate and false
propaoanda about the existing Government as William Dudley
PelleyT
XoAv, Mr. Chaiinian, as I stated a moment ago, when Mr. Pelley
had given testimony before this connnittee I felt it was my duty to
look for some files. I could not find them at that thne and I w^ould
have brought them to this committee if I had, and after maneuvering
around I have picked up about 10 or more original files that I found
in the Old House Office Building in the committee room where we
kept our storage of Pelley stuff. I am
^Ir. Thomas. May I interrupt right there, Mr. Dickstein? Have
3^ou got these files that you mentioned on the floor of the House a
short time ago, that you had very important documents; did you
bring those along?
^Ii". DiCKSTEix. Yes.
^Ir. Thomas. These are the ones?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. Yes; and then I could not find all of them and I
said that I promised you
Mr. Thomas. You could not find all that you mentioned?
Mr. Dickstein. I knew that I had them, but I found most of them.
Now, I will identify this as exhibit o-A, and I am not going to
read them. I am just going to give you extracts and suggest in my
own way who I think ought to be subpenaed, but I think it is up to
the connnittee to do what it pleases.
The Chairman. Tell us what the document is, if it an original
or copy.
Mr. Dickstein. This is a document taken from the files of Mr.
Pelley. This is the original paper that I am going to submit, taken
from the files of Mr. Pelley by Mr. Kramer uncler a Government
subpena. I am just giving you what the tie-up is.
The Chairman. Were all of the files that you have there taken
from Mr. Pelley "s files by Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Dickstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. What vear was that?
Mr. Dickstein. That was, I think, late in 1934.
Mr. Thomas. For the sake of the record in proving it up, would
you mind digressing a moment while we let Mr. Kramer identify
the file ? Would that be satisfactory ?
]\fr. Dickstein. I have no objection at all. I asked Mr. Kramer
to come in here anrl he agreed.
Tlie Chairman. It will take only a minute.
STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES KRAMER, FORMER MEMBER OF
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
The Chairman. Will you examine the files, Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Kramer. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, there
were so many files the committee at that time took, I personally did
not handle the files. We had four or five investigators who actually
did the work, but the files — or rather I might say, as I heard Mr.
Pellev sav
7526 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Dempset. I think that we ought to swear Mr. Kramer, and
then have him state if he did seize these files and if these are the
original files seized.
Mr. Kramer. I just want to preface my remarks with that.
(Mr. Kramer was thereupon sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. Now, will you please, Mr. Dickstein, show him
the files and let him identify the ones that he can, giving the date
and some descriptive matter so that the record will show that he
identified them?
Mr. Dickstein. I will also identify a certain gun that I found in
the bag when the papers came over, a certain gun was found from
Mr. Pelley's office.
The Chairman. Let us get them one by one.
Mr. Dickstein. I want him to look at it and he can make a full
statement on all of them.
Mr. Chairman, may I state for the record that the Hon. Charles
Kramer has looked at exhibits A and B.
Mr. Dempsey. Let me suggest if the gentleman from California
wants to play with that gun he ought to go out on the lot some-
where.
Mr. Dickstein. And C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, M, N, O, P, exhibit Q
and exhibit S.
The Chairman. Let me ask Mr. Kramer a question.
Mr. Kramer, you have examined the exhibits that Mr. Dickstein
has identified, have you not ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Are tliose documents contained in those exhibits
the documents that you took or under your direction were taken from
the files of William Dudley Pelley?
INIr. Kramer. Those and hundreds of more like that. I believe the
old boxes are back in the storeroom, and I believe that I have written
the committee about them. They are still over there marked "Silver
Shirts," a great many of them that were taken from the files and
records at Los Angeles and examined there.
The Chairman. These particular records?
Mr. Kramer. They are merely a part of those records.
The Chairman. You know that they are part of the records?
]\Ir. Kramer. Those are part of the original records.
The Chairman. And taken from Asheville, at Asheville?
Mr. Kramer. They were taken from the headquarters, the main
headquarters of the Silver Shirts in Asheville, N. C, and I do not
recall the street but it is quite a ways out, about halfway out to
that end.
The Chairman. Approximately what date, Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Kramer. I would say, it seems to me some time in November.
]\Ir. Dickstein. About the end of September or the beginning of
October of 1934.
Mr. Kramer. The files were all taken after an examination of a
number of witnesses at Asheville over a period of several days, 4 or 5
days, and then another investigation in which witnesses testified,
they were all executive and were not public hearings, and the men
were instructed under my direction to take all of the files which they
did and we took them over to the juvenile courtroom, and they were
placed in there and from that the men went through it and there were
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7527
four or live men down there under the direction of the committee, and
we took a great many of these files which are still in the committee's
possession, and likewise those that we found at Los Angeles, and the
records of the Los Angeles examination, together Avith that that was
later conducted in the District of Columbia here. I believe that you
have copies of those hearings, and if you will read that you will get
a memorandum of the exliibits that were then introduced, which ought
to aid tliis connnittoe considerably with respect to Pelley.
The Chairmax. All right. I think that is sufficient for the identi-
fication of the records.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. 1 found this in your stuff that came in. this gun.
-Mr. Kramer. I don't know of my own knowledge whether this par-
ticular apparatus was in his records or not.
The Chairmax. You are speaking of a gun that is in your hand?
Mr. Kr.\mer. Yes ; but he did have a great deal of ammunition and
some machine guns and rifles which had been taken from the armory,
Marine armory at San Diego. Those were recovered by the Army, or
the Navy, and he had set up there back in the hills of San Diego what
he called a storm-troop division, and when he made the statement in
here the other day that that was not a military organization he de-
liberately lied to this committee, because the records of the committee
of which I served then as chairman of the subcommittee has found
definite proof that he did have such a military organization.
Mr. Dempsey. Just a second. Just a minute. You say that there
were seized machine guns and ammunition ?
Mr. Kramer. I don't recall
;Mr. Dejmpsey. That is your statement.
Mr. Kramer. I said some rifles.
Mr. Dempsey. Those were taken from some Army post ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes, in San Diego.
^Ir. Dempsey. So that they were stolen ?
]Mr. Kramer. I think that they were. These boys brought them
out under a bribe that he was giving them at various times.
Mr. Dempsey. Was that called to the attention of the Department
of Justice i
Mr. Kramer. Yes ; all of our findings were brought to the attention
of the Department of Justice.
Mr. Dempsey. What was done about it ?
Mr. Kramer. And the Department of War, and the Navy, and I do
not recall. Perhaps Mr. Dickstein and Mr. McCormack can probably
tell you.
Mr. Dempsey. I cannot understand all of this Government material
being taken and nothing done about it.
Mr. Kramer. There were a lot of things brought to the attention
of the State Department and the Department of Justice, and 1 do
not recall what was done.
Mr. Dicksteix. All of these documents are all new. We hadn't
had a chance
Mr. Dempsey. I am not talking about that.
Mr. Dicksteix^. I do not know.
Mr. Dempsey. What effort was made to prosecute for the theft of
these munitions?
Mr. Dicksteix. T want to say this to my colleague.
7528 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. Before Mr. Diekstein goes on, you swore Mr. Kramer
in, and I think that the chairman ought to swear Mr. Diekstein in,
too.
(Mr. Diekstein was sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Dempsey. What effort was made to prosecute for the theft of
these munitions?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I do not know.
Mr. Dempsey. You were a member of the committee.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. I was, but I had my hands full in New York. We
were just stepping into a lot of dynamite wherever we moved, and
we did not have time to move. We had only been in operation for
4 or 5 months although I had been making investigations about 2
years before.
Mr. Dempsey. Was that thing called to the War Department's at-
tention or the Navy Department's attention, or the Department of
Justice ?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. I honestly cannot say. 1 cannot recall just what
was done. It is impossible.
Mr. VooRHis. I want to ask Mr. Kramer, did your committee's
agents find this gun and ammunition
Mr. Kramer. If you will read
Mr. VooRHis. In that place ?
Mr. Kramer. If you will read the hearings
Mr. Dempsey. We do not want to go over that. We want your
knowledge of it.
Mr. Kramer. I do not remember the exact details any more.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that they found the guns but never
could prove that the guns belonged to Pelley, and was that not that
it, while the committee believed that they belonged to Pelley ?
Mr. Kramer. The information that the committee had, as I recall
it, just refreshing my recollection of what I recall, there were two
witnesses that had been in the Pelley storm-troop division of which I
think that there were some two or three hundred men.
The Chairman. At San Diego?
Mr. Kramer. Yes; and they had identification cards, several of
which are a part of the record of this committee, and they were oilered
in evidence. Those men testified, as I recall it, in Los Angeles, that
when they disbanded one of them was very severely injured in the
Silver Shirts organization discovering that he was an investigator
rather than one of their own organization, and that is how the com-
mittee found out the connection between Pelley and the storm-troop
division.
Mr. Dempsey. We understand all about that, but the thing I cannot
understand is this, how a congressional committee would locate a lot
of Government munitions that had been stolen, apparently, from bar-
racks, and not do anything about it?
Mr. Kramer. We did do this about it. Mr. Dempsey. It was brought
to the attention of my chairman. I took instructions, and whatever
recoveries, or what information I had was always forwarded back to
Mr. McCormack.
Mr. Dempsey. It seemed to me you had a perfect case.
Mr. Kramer. All of that information was brought to his atten-
tion because I know we discussed it in executive session and to the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7529
respective dei)artments, and what they did is something that I did not
go inco further. We gave them the information.
The Chairman. You feU that you liad made out a good case on the
question i
Mr. Kkamku. Exactly so; and it was for tlie departments to take
whatever action they saw fit, and I did not follow it through because
at that time Congress was not in session, and I charged no money for
expenses. Our funds were limited.
Mr. Dehipsey. It is my understanding that a Member of Congress
is ])aid by the Congress, in session or not.
"Sir. KiJAMER. All of the investigation and travel and everything
like that wa,s charged against the connnittee, and I did not think it
w^as necessary for me to come back here. I simply sent all of the
records and files and Avhatever information I had back to the com-
mittee, to iSiv. McCormack.
^Ir. Dempsey. That answers my question.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask Mr, Kramer a couple of questions.
Mr. Kramer, when you located these ginis and ammunitions out there,
Avhere did you locate them?
]\Ir. Kramer. I personally did not locate them. It was our inves-
tigators that got them and brought the information into the com-
mittee hearing.
Mr. Thomas. Where did he locate them?
Mr. IvRAMER. In San Diego, back in the hills.
Mr. Thomas. AVho located them back in the hills?
Mr. Kramer. I just do not recall the names of the hills, but it is
mentioned.
]Mr. Dempsey. What is the name of the investigator ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall who he is, but if you will look into the
hearings that were had in Los Angeles you will get a lot of informa-
tion verbatim, and I have not read it in 4 years.
]\Ir. Thomas. Do you not recall the name of the investigator, your-
self?
Mr. Kramer. What was that fellow's name? That was one of the
intelligence men.
Mr. DiCKSTEix. He was not a New York man; he wa,s a western
fellow.
Mr. Thomas. Was that gun found by him?
Mr. Kramer. It is possible that this gun was in his Asheville head-
quarters, because they did have
Mr. Thomas. Where has this gun been all of this time ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not know.
Mr. DicKSTEix. I found it in the storeroom, in looking for these
documents, not in the clerk's office; but we had some more stuff on
the fifth floor of the Old Building, where we found the gun, and I
found some of this correspondence and these files and otherwise I
would have brought them in when Pelley was here, and I did not
personally examine Pelley.
Mr. Thomas. Are you going to refer to this gun later?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I will refer to a witness who will identify a simi-
lar and identical gun in his possession while he visited her apart-
ment,
Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether that is the gun, yourself?
Mr. Dicksteix. I could not say that. I am merely telling the com-
7530 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
mittee that this w<as found among the files of documents and papers
and other stuff of the Silver Shirt Legion brought in from Asheville,
N. C, and I have not gone there. I was one of these gentlemen that
staj^ed right in New York, and I did not go to California or any
other place.
The Chairman. You have made that clear. Now let us proceed.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Thank you
I have an original document consisting of a letter dated October
20, 1933, to Robert C. Summerville, who was the chief officer of the
Silver Legion organization, at William Dudley Pelley's general head-
quarters staff, located in Asheville, N. C. This letter was sent to
Robert C. Summerville from Capt. S. J. Rubley, a captain of the
Medical Corps of the National Guard attached to the third squadron
of the One Hundi-ed and Sixth Cavalry of the State of Michigan.
His commanding officer is Col. Harold Weber. Captain Rubley is
recorded as on active duty with the Michigan State Guard, subject to
periodic drills under Federal jurisdiction, paid for by Federal money,
for which he receives also Federal pay.
His address in the Congressional Medical Directoiy records him
with an address, 14000 Strathmore Avenue, Detroit, Mich. Captain
Rubley has been recruiting the Ku Klux Klan for several years prior
to his correspondence with Robert Summerville, who was Pelley's
chief lieutenant at the headquarters at Asheville, N. C.
In his communication to Mr. Summerville, Captain Rubley says —
and quoting very briefly :
The Klan is growing with unbelievable rapidity. Inside of a mouth I predict
a membership of 50,0(10 and I am working very closely with them. I wish it
was so that you could send an organizer here to woi'k full time. My time is so
taken up that I do not have time to get more than four hours sleep a night.
Have had to give up a class in equitation, but hope to have fifty Klansnien
mounted in two weeks time. They are preparing seriously to defend their
homes and their country. I just talked with Dr. Webber and we have decided
to leave our families' as far from Detroit as we can. I may be exceptionally
blood-thirsty, but I feel that the late winter snows will be tinged scarlet in the
streets of Deti-oit. Conditions liere are bad. * * * The people are losing
faith in a decadent and corrupt administration that has betrayed them, and
mortgaged themselves to the Jews. * * * if an organizer might be sent
here, there is no doubt but what he could make rapid headway and I will give
of my time and service as I can. * * * j pledge myself to your cause and
will iicep you informed of all that is going on in this City. But just at present
I am severely handicapped for both time and money. I am forced to delay my
visit to headquarters at this time, but you can depend on me as a Silver Shirt
in Detroit.
These documents were signed by Capt. S. J. Rubley with his own
signature. He is a captain in the United States Reserve Army and
he is still a member of the Reserve Army, and he is still actively
engaged in these movements.
The Chairman. Let me have that exhibit, please.
Mr, DiOKSTEiN. Now, here is the original document.
Mr, Dempsey. What is the date of that, Mr. Dickstein ?
Mr. DicitsTEiN. October 20, 1933. Now, this is the original signa-
ture of Captain Rubley.
The Chairmax. You say that Captain Rubley is now a Reserve
officer ?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. To my best information and belief, and he was at
that time. That is the original letter.
UN-AMEUICAX I'llOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7531
Tlie CirAii{.-\rAx. I wsint tlie clerk to make a note and issue a subpena
for this captain riffhl away. You have his address?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. Yes.
Xow, Dr. Webber is the head of the Klan in Detroit, Mich.
^fr. Dempsey. Before yon leave this — it was brou^iht to the atten-
tion of the AVar Department tliat this Captain Rubley
Mr. DiCKSTEix. I will come to that in a minute.
Mr. Dempsey. There is no letter sit^ned by Webber. Do I under-
stand that th;it letter merely mentit^is Webber's name, is that the
substance of it'^
^Nlr. DiCKSTEix. It mentions Webber's name but the original letter
that I have in my possession is siji'ned in ink and in typewriting by
Captain Rubley.
Air. Thomas. Is that the one that you just read?
^Ir. DiCKSTEiN. Yes; but I did not read it all. I have just ojiven
you a feA\- extracts. It j^oes into a lot of material that I think that
this connnittee ouo-ht to have, and if there is no objection I would
like to have my man read the other tie-up with these few more letters
from Rubley, in the file.
The typewritten summary is mine, and the original letter
]\Ir. VooRHis. I woidd like to know where Dr. Webber comes in ?
jNIr. DiCKSTEiN. He is the head of the Ku Klux Klan in Detroit, and
Webber and Rubley, who is an Army officer, in the Army Reserve,
being paid by Federal money.
Mr. VooRHis. Is there any evidence about Dr. Webber ?
Mr. Dkksteix. I will give you the whole tie-up. There are two
Webbers. One is in the National Guard, a superior of Rubley, and he
also was tied up with this movement to train Silver Shirters in the
Army Resei-ve Corps where Rubley was the chief in there, in horse-
manship. They have used at one time 50 horses. Government horses,
to train these Silver Shirters.
Mr. Dempsey. I would still like to know whether the Army's atten-
tion was called to this, and what did they do about it?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. I asked for his removal.
iSIr. Dempsey. What did they do?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. I have so far — -I could not get any answer yet, and
it is 4 years.
Mr. Thomas. How did you ask the Army, by correspondence ?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. I think that I liave a telegram here that I sent. I
wdl turn it over to the committee.
Mr. Dempsey. Did you turn over to them a copy of these letters?
]\Ir. DiCKSTEix. I have sent them copies of these letters, and I under-
stand that was to be court-martialed, and there was a trial, but I
coukl not find out what the court martial was, and from my best
information and belief, Captain Rubley is still on the pay roll of the
United States Government in connecti(jn with this movement.
Mr. Thomas. In connection with this particular matter, I think it
is important that this committee get the copy of the telegram or the
copy of the letter that Mr. Dickstein sent to the War Deparment.
Mr. DiCKSTEix. Let me complete the Rubley letters.
IVIr. Thomas. Will you turn that over?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. Yes: I will tui-n it over. I could not find all of the
files, but if you want it at this point
to
7532 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kramer. I think if you go to tlie files that are kept over in my
storeroom — when we moved from the other office, on the fifth floor, we
had to take those files out of there, and I think that you will find a great
deal — a mass of stuff over there, files of the Silver Shirts, and of the
bund, or
The Chairman. Was this put in the record before your committee,
this evidence ?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. No; we could not get to it, we were just
The Chairman. You could have handed it to the stenographer and
got it incorporated in the record.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I doubt, Mr. Chairman, whether this stuff ever
reached us, we could not get to it. We were flooded with these matters.
The moment the country was advised that an investigation on un-
American activities was to be held we were piled up with stuff that we
could not keep up with, conditions were so bad.
Now, here is a letter — in order to save time, here is a wire to the
War Department by direction of myself. I directed the clerk of the
committee whose name was Randolph, who sent a letter, I believe, to
the War Department.
The Chairman. This is a photostatic copy of a file from F. P. Ran-
dolph. "Hon. Samuel Dickstein," — do you want to read this?
"Adjutant General"
Mr. Dickstein. I wanted to make sure that Rubley was in the serv-
ice of the United States Government. I was not going to make any
charges without first knowing that.
The Chairman. I was trying to get the date. May 29, 1937, The
Adjutant General's statement.
Their records show a Captain Samuel Jether Rubley as a captain Medical
Corps, National Guard, of the United States. National Guard Bureau of War
Department states thi?ir records show Samuel Jetlier Rubley as a captain of
Medical Corps National Guard of United States attached to Third Squadron,
106th Cavalry of Michigan, State National Guard, with his otficial address re-
corded as Monroe, Michigan, and his commanding officer as Col. Harold Weber.
National Guard Bureau says he is recorded as on active duty with the Michigan
State Guard, subject to periodical drills under Federal jurisdiction, for which
he receives Federal pay. Library of Congress reports tlie Medical Directory on
record there records him as a physician with an address, 14000 Strathmore
Avenue, Detroit, Michigan, and the current telephone directory for Detroit, a
Dr. S. J. Rubley at 491 W^est Hancock Street, Detroit.
The date of this telegram is May of 1936.
Mr. Dickstein. I think the typewritten copy will give you a clearer
date.
The Chairman. I don't have a typewritten copy.
Mr. Dickstein. I followed that through further than that.
Mr. Dempsey. AVhy did the committee permit 2 years to elapse?
Mr. Dickstein. There are some more files of correspondence that I
am going to locate, where I asked for his removal or dismissal, and I
have asked, and I understood that there was to be a court martial, and
I have some more correspondence that I will locate and be glad to
turn over to the committee. Now, whether they smothered it or not I
do not know, but I think that it is a serious situation when you have
Army officers collaborating with Pelleys and Summervilles and taking
them over to the United States Government property and training
them in horsemanship and shooting.
Mr. Dempsey. Let us confine ourselves to the dociunents.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7533
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. If you do not mind, I shall let my young man read
the others.
(The following document was read for Mr. Dickstein:)
Exliibir C, an original letter dat-xl October 19, 1933 from Capt<un Rnbley of
Detroit. Miehigan to J^ilver Legion Ileudiiuarters addressed to Mr. Summerville
(Pelley's headquarters organizer) I quote from the contents of this document:
"The idea of the Silver Rangers is a CAPITAL idea. I wish my house was
in order that I might join them at once, but it is not, and by the same tolven I
feel that I am in a lield that needs me more than the Southwest * * * Pol-
itics are putrid, Connnunisni is wide-siiread and arrogant, and the Silver Shirts
are conspicuous by their absence * * * i have contacted the leader of the
Klan, Mr. Wel>ber, and he is doing a real work. The lecture he gave Sat. night
was taken almost entirely from' Liberation and from private correspondence I
have received from I^awrence Brown. Sunday afternoon the Klan are to hold
a closed meeting and start a drive for lU.CMtO membership. There is no doubt
but what they will succeed. Out of that numlier there are to be picked a
number, and they are to be turned over to me for military drill and training,
and from them, I'll pick about fifty and drill them during the winter in equita-
tion. * * * jxy pet dream since reading the last Liberation is to organize
a S. S. Ranger Troop or a squadron, and supplement the mounted police during
the coming turmoil. * * * ^ letter this morning from Lt. Col. Hadley of the
Paul Reveres at 120 S. LaSalle Street, Cliicago, says that they have no chapter
here. The Klan seems to be the shock troops at present. But feel that they can
be depended tipon to liold the line until the Silver Shirts and the Paul Reveres
get mobilized. * * * Please tell me what you think of the Detroit Cav. idea
and give all the suggestions you can concerning it. Because we are in dire
need of such an outfit."
This document is signed by Capt. Samuel J. Rubley and there is another one
on the baclv.
Exhibit D is a copy of tlie communication dated October 19, 1933, from Ashe-
ville, N. C. to Captain Rubley. of Detroit:
''I lieartily approve of what you say with regard to the effectiveness of the
Klan orgjniization and the Paul Revere organization paralleling Silver Shirt
work. It is the ultimate principals for which we are working and it is a' testi-
mony of the breadth ar.d depth of the true kn_owledge motivating this campaign,
that we can see tliis clearly.
"However, I would make it mighty hot for the leader of the Klan in Detroit
if he is using Liberation material and not giving ci-edit where credit belongs !
Emphatically, Captain Rubley, there is no organization that is as mucli on the
firing line as we are, or working as intensely with espionage officers wlio are
daily digging up information for use at possible sacrifice of their own lives.
And when the people actually get aroused there will be only one leadership
that may serve to keep tlie minds of the people into clear channels of construc-
tive action."
Mr. Thomas. Who is that signed by ?
Mr. Dickstein. I will tell you that in a minute, sir. This is a
copy of a communication that is addressed to Rubley, and it is not
signed. It is merely prefaced by Robert C. Summerville.
Mr. Thomas. Who is this Summerville ?
]Mr. DiCK.STEiN. He was the first lieutenant in charge of Pelley's
headquarters.
Mr. Kramer. He was the man ?
Mr. Dempsey, Is that signed ?
Mr. Thomas. I am trying to find out who this Mr. Summerville is.
Mr. DicKSTEiK. He is the chief in charge of the Silver Legion.
Mr. Thomas. I have asked Mr. Dickstein who Mr. Summerville is.
Mr. DiCKSiEiN. Summerville was in full and complete charge of
the Silver Shirters, Silver Legion, of Mr. Pelley, and Mr. Pelley's
right-hand man.
Mr. Thomas. Let us have one person talking at a time.
Mr. DicKSTEix. His office was the headquarters of Asheville, N. C.
7534 "UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Thomas. Do you know wliether Mr. Summerville has been Mr.
Pelley's first lieutenant up to recently ?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Up to as recently as probably 2 years ago.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know what he is doing now ?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. I do not ; and I never met the man.
Mr. Kramer. I personally did.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. You had the honor.
Mr. Kramer. I think that we ought to look into this man Sum-
merville. He makes quite some statements there, and I think that
we ought to subpena him along with these others.
Mr. Kramer. May I interject a little information for Mr. Dick-
stein? You want to find out who he was. He had several down
there, and I think if you can get the hearings that were had at Ashe-
ville, which were in print, you will get the names of those men, and
there was one particular man down there that we brought later up
to the District. His name was Paul von Lilienfeld Toal. He was
adjutant general in the organization.
I personally met these men, and they were up here and testified
on these things, but if you check that hearing you will get all of that
information and their addresses.
(The following was read for Mr. Dickstein :)
Exhibit E : This is au original document elated March 10, 1934, with Pelley's
mimeographed signature in the upijer right-hand corner, with "Silver Shirts
of America" printed at the heading. This communication is written from the
Washington headquarters of the Silver Shirts, at 304 Woodward Building.
It is addressed to Robert C. Summerville, Pelley's headquarters organizer, and
signed by Paul A. Toal, another lieutenant in the pay of Pelley, serving in his
Asheville, North Carolina, headquarters. I quote from its contents :
"Thank yovi for your intention to send to Gen. Imnadze and Mr. Strogoff our
LIBERATION * * * up till now we did not get tliem regularly, save a
few Russian papers from New York and the Deutsche Zeitung from New York.
Wliat I am driving at is to establish an interchange of literature with as many
as possible foreign publications written in our spirit. I even read a few words
Spanish and could get an idea about Fascism in Argentine from their papers,
if necessary."
Mr. Dickstein. This is an original letter, as you will notice by the
printing on it, I want to turn that over.
Mr. Thomas. Who is that signed by?
Mr. Dickstein. That is signed by Paul A. Toal, in the Washington
office.
(The following was read for Mr. Dickstein:)
Exhibit G: Original letter of December 28th, 1933, from Liberation News
Bureau, Pelley's Silver Shirt Headquarters in the Woodward Building, Wash-
ington, D. C, to Robert Summerville in Asheville, North Carolina, signed by
Paul A. Toal .and I quote : However ,the heading of this document has the word-
ing "Confidential Information." And I quote :
"True, we must 'grow forward,' and this present life is a very important one,
maybe it will be the biggest job we ever accomplished under the leadership of
the White King. Nevertheless, it helps me a lot to know that I have worked
before and successfully under his leadership, which explains the love and loyalty
I feel for him at present, and as well for his close associates, like you, dear
Bob.
"Now to go back to the present day's business, I am sending you herewith
application of my future German Organizer for the Eastern District, Mr. A.
Seydel. * * * He is very devoted to our cause. Born in the U. S., he was
in Germany for a long time, which combination makes him ideally fit to be an
organizer for the S, S."
This is the original signed by Paul A. Toal.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7535
The Chairman, Do you know, Mr. Dickstein, if these letters were
ever made available to the Department of Justice when they were
investioatino; the Silver Shirts?
Mr. Dickstein. I could not say. All I can say is that these docu-
ments from the thne that they were brought in by Mr. Kramer up
to the time that I am going over them, they Avere never looked at,
I mean
The Chairman. "Wasn't the Department of Justice investigating
them at the same time the committee was, or was that later?
Mr. Dickstein. It was later, I think.
Here is a very good exhibit.
(The following was read for Mr. Dickstein:)
Original letter dated October 31. 1933. from Captain Rubley in Detroit, signed
by him to the general headquarters of the Silver Legion in Asheville, North
Carolina. I quote:
"Yesterday, I saw seven distinct riots, * * * several injuries, and scores
of Inirned blue-prints, worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. The attackers
work under the guise of strikers, but the head of the striking organization deny
any part in the demonstration. * * * One readily senses a Communistic
program. Police were lured far from the scene of battle.
"Papers report the town quiet today, but fresh rioting may break out any
time.
''Training of the Volunteer Klan Cavalry troop continues without any inter-
ruption * * *. Xinety per cent of the people of America are in a frame
of mind for a dictator * * *. Xot one of the many officers I liave talked
with seem to be able to think in terms of a local revolution. The older they
are in the service the dumber they get * * *. Because of the lack of the
Silver Shirt organization here I am working with the Klan. As soon as we
can get a troop or squadron of 'Rangers' here I'll transfer my energies to them.
Am reserving one night a week for the 119 Ambulance Corps, 32ud Division.
The other nights go to whoever wants to learn to ride and handle a saber."
Mr. Dempsey. What is the date of that letter?
Mr. Dickstein. This is dated October 31, 1933, from Captain Rub-
lev and signed bv his signature.
(The following was read for Mr. Dickstein :)
Original letter dated September 30, 1933, written and signed by Captain Rub-
ley of Detroit, Mich., addressed to General Headquarters of the Silver Shirts,
in Asheville, North Carolina :
"I am in close contact with a large number of Army officers here and am
cultivating their friendship all I can * * * j wish to be kept 'Incogno' for
the present until I get my bearings. I also find that the K. K. K. is organized
and active here * * *. They use a very effective method. "P " elm clubs and
hard knuckles * * *. The members ai'e wearing Blue shirts."
This is signed by Captain Rubley.
Exhibit "TVI", a copy of a letter from Major Luther I. Powell, Chief of Staff
of Pelley's Silver Legion in Asheville, North Carolina. The letter is dated
November 1st, 1933, to Captain Rubley in Detroit. I quote :
"Captain, the writer of this letter was one of the charter members of the
Ku-Klux Klan in Atlanta, Georgia. I had charge of Oregon, Washington.
Idaho, Alaska and Hawaii in the mobilization and recruiting of the Ku-Klux
Klan in its early period. Therefore, I know something of the organization,
and I am still a Klansman at heart even though I am not aflSliated with the
organization and have not been for the past seven years * * * However,
we want you to know, and want you to tell all your Klansmen fellows that we
are in this great economic struggle together and we want a friendly feeling to
exist between the.se two great organizations. We have many outstanding
Klansmen and ex-Klansmen within our ranks and many more are joining our
ranks daily, and I presume vice versa."
This is a document signed by Powell, a copy of the original.
94931 — 40 — vol. 12 22
7536 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
This is Exliibit N, a photostatic copy of a document dated April 4, 1934, from
Robert C. Siimmerville, of tlie General Headciiiarters staff in Aslieville, N. C,
to Mr. Royal Scutt Gulden, Head of the Order of Seventy-Six, 139 West 57th
Street, New York City. I quote :
"The Chief has given us a complete understanding regarding yourself, and in
response to my question as to whom to communicate with in New York City
for information of important consequence, I was referred to you * * *
There is also another important favor which you can do us, in the onslaught
upon the Jews which we are planning in coming publications, and that is to
secure the names and addresses of the various publishers of Jewish magazines
and newspapers in the vicinity of New York City. We have prepared a Clip-
ping Bureau here at GHQ, to cull out the "live" material in which the Jews
reveal their hand, and which, of course, constitutes the most deadly sort of
publix-ity * * *"
This is signed by Summerville, to Royal Scott Gulden.
Mr. Thomas. Could I ask a question about the fellow Gulden?
What wa.s his position up there?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. He was the liaison man for Pelley's outfit in New
York.
Mr. Thomas. Was he a member of the Silver Shirts?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. Yes; he was a member of the Silver Shirts, and
he had his own organization, of the Order of Seventy Six.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know what his business was in New York?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. He used to be in the real-estate business, and still
is.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know where he is now?
Mr, DicKSTEiN. Yes.
Mr, Thomas. In New York City?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. Yes.
The Chairman. This is a photostatic copy. How did you get it?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. From the possession of the files of the Silver Le-
gion.
The Chairman, Why would they keep a photostatic copy of a let-
ter in their file?
Mr, DicKSTEiN. We are just giving you what we found.
The Chairman. This might have been made — the photostatic
copy — by the committee?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. It may have been, and we may have lost it.
The Chairman. Did you make photostats, Mr. Kramer? This is
a photostatic copy of a letter. Did not the committee make numer-
ous photostatic copies?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. We made a number of photostatic copies.
Mr. Kramer. There were a great many photostatic copies made of
originals, made by the committee.
(The following was read for Mr Dickstein:)
Photostatic copy of a document signed by Captain Rubley, dated October 10,
1933, addressed to General Headquarters. I quote :
" * * * What can you tell me about the role the Army and Navy will pla.v
in the next government under Pres. Baruch, or rather dictator Baruch. I feel
that this next congress (V) will be the last one. What will be our next step as
arm.v officers. Will the army stay with the dictator or with the people. These
are hot questions and I doubt if you will be able to answer them. But our time
is short. I feel that some one should begin to think in terms of the change that
is coming and not be caught napping. * * * j-yp studied the Russian Revo-
lution and feel that I have an understanding of what we are in for and am any-
thing but elated this morning. Its like watching an approaching cyclone won-
dering what * * *"
un-a:merican propaganda activities 7537
Afr. Thomas. Wliat is the date of that letter?
Mr. DiCKsTEix. October 10, 1933. It is a photostatic copy of the
oriofinal. si<riie(l by Mr. Rubley.
Mr. 'rHo:MAS. Do yon know wliether yonr committee tnrned that
letter over. t)ver to tlie Department of Justice^
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I conld not say.
Mr. Thomas. Do yon know whether the matter was referred to the
Department of Jnstice?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. It mio-ht luive been. I am still hopino- that this
committee will o;ive me a fnrther opi)ortnnity when I find other
material to tnrn over to this conmiittee for further stndy.
Mr. Thomas. At that time yon had yonr own committee, and I v.ant
to know wliether yon tnrned it over to the Dejiartment of Jnstice?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. ]Most likely we haA^e. I conld not swear that I did.
I ])ersonally did not.
The Chaiemax. We are trying to account for the absence of the
original letter, and it must have been. If the committee got the
original, they did one of two things, either returned the original to
Pelley or they sent the original to the De]iartment of Justice. There
was some reason for making a photostatic copy now, and I was trying
to inquire if you can recall at this late date what would be the reason
for making a photostatic copy?
Mr. DiCKSTEix'. ]My best judgment. Mr. Chairman, is that Ave turned
the original over to "the Department of Justice. That would be my
best judgment.
Now. just as I said a moment ago, Mr. Chairman, I .should like to
have the opportunity to again some day, at a time conA'enient to the
committee, when I pick up, which I hope to find, a number of more ex-
hibits, tying up the Silver Legion with at least 30 or 40 State Army
officers, and others who have been Avorking together on this one mass
mobilization. I am looking for it every day.
NoAv, I want to make another statement. There appears to be in
the Liberty, and Avill be in the Liberty that has not come out yet, an
article by one Paffrath, Johan H. Paffrath, in which he writes an
article that Hitler agents in the United States, and he mentions my
name at least 15 times, the article does, in AA'hich it is claimed that he
was in niA' employ and that he Avas a real honest to goodness spy for
the Hitler govermnent, and he Avas told and directed from this article
to find a Avay hoAV he could get into my employ so that he could get
my secrets against the Nazi government of hoAv I get all of this
information, and so forth and so on.
He admits that he just became a citizen about 3 or 4 years ago and
he admits that he Avas a Gestapo or spy for the German GoA'ernment
at the time Avhen he became a citizen.
He also states that he framed the false kidnaping in Ncav York and
I knoAv something about the case, the papers had it, that he allowed
himself to be kidnaped Avith the idea that by Nazi troopers to take
him back to Germany I Avould come to his defense because he Avas
against the German GoA'ernment, and he said he was not.
I Avant to say to you, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the com-
mittee, that this man Avas never in my employ. As a matter of fact,
I haA-e only met the man once in my office, or tAvice, and he found a
way to steal some blank checks in tlie office, forged them, and he was
7538 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
in an insane asylum and now he says that he did that all out of
sympathy for the Gestapo so that he could go into my office and get
information and that certain men have vanished and disappeared
and he knows where they Avere, and the point that I want to make
is that he admits that he'was a Gestapo agent, a secret agent for the
Hitler Government.
The Chairman. Does he admit that in that article, that he still is?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I don't know whether he still is but he has changed
his heart or his mind, he does not want to lose his citizenship papers.
The Chairman. They all lose their hearts.
Mr. Dempset. He has been in an insane asylum?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. He got himself committed to an insane asylum.
The Chairman. Do you think he has been totally cured?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. He said he was not crazy. He just played an act
on our institutions, and he fooled the courts by this kidnaping busi-
ness to find a way how to get into my employ and he never was in my
employ, and the article is false and untrue, and 1 do not know the
man from Adam except as I say I met him once or twice, and I
submit that he ought to be subpenaed before this committee.
We will give you his residence and he says that he has a list of 50
or more agents in this country Avho are representing Hitler as spies
in this country and he had them all, that he had to report to certain
superior officers in Germany, and that he made certain reports on
everybody, including the committees of this Congress.
Mr. Dempset. Are you contending that what he has done is
criminal ?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Absolutely.
Mr. Dempset. And he is confessing it by this statement?
Mr. DicKSTEix. He is confe-ssing it.
Mr. Dempsey. Do you not think that the place to take that is to the
Department of Justice ?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Well, the point is this, Mr. Dempsey, that so far as
this committee, I know what to do so far as Libert}^ is concerned,
and I know what to do so far as the criminal forgery is concerned,
but he admits here for the attention of this committee, that he was
a secret Gestapo agent for the German Government in this country
and he mentions certain names by A, B, C, who were working with
him to undermine this Government, and I say to this committee
that he ought to be subpenaed, and the names of the secret police or
Gestapo in this country, so far as this committee is concerned
Mr. Dempsey. I agree with that, but the criminal thing
'J-.*
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I will take care of that myself, in my own way.
Now, may I recess personally, and just ])ut Miss Waring on for a
few brief questions?
I will leave this copy of Liberty here, because this is an advance
copy. You will find it very interesting.
STATEMENT OF MISS DOROTHY WARING, OF NEW YORK CITY
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I would like to present Miss Waring to the com-
mittee, and I do not know whether you want to proceed, or whether
I should ask her some questions.
The Chairman. What is your name, please?
Miss Waring. Dorothy Waring.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7539
The CiiAiK^rAX. And whore do you live?
Miss "Waring. I live in NeAv York City.
The Chair>[an. And how long have you lived in New York City?
Miss Waijix(;. Most of my life.
The Chair:max. ^Tr. Dickstein. will you question her?
Mr. DuKsTEiN. Do you know Mr. Pelley?
Miss Waring. I do.
Mr. Dickstein. Personally?
!Miss Warin<;. I do.
Mr. Dickstein. When did you meet Mr. Pelley?
Miss Waring. The first time that I met Mr. Pelley was in the office
of Royal Scott (iulden, head of the Order of '76, and his offices at that
time were at 139 East Fifty-seventh Street, and he was working in
close cooperation wtih ]Mr. Gulden, and likewise with Colonel Emer-
son, who was then head of the Friends of Germany, and likewise
with tlie Friends of New Germany, which subse<iuently became Fritz
KnhnV Bund, and I at that time was acting as a confidential secre-
tary to yiv. Gulden, having been placed there by Congressman Dick-
stein, and became rather friendly with Mr. Pelley, who subsequently
came to my a]:)artment to visit me to convince me about the Silver
Shirts, and what the Silver Shirt organization was doing.
Mr. Dickstein. Before you proceed, Avhat did he wear?
Miss Waring. He was wearing a uniform, and he came to my
house with two bodyguards.
Mr. Dickstein. What kind of a uniform, will you describe it,
please ?
Miss Waring. He had on black boots and riding breeches, and a
military jacket with a Sam Brown belt and a Silver Shirt, with the
silver "L" on his shoulder, and a leather jacket, and he came in and
claimed that he had just flown in, in his own plane, with his two
bodyguards.
The Chairman. Of course, he did not suspect that you were
Jewish, did he ?
Miss Waring. That had nothing to do with it. He did not know
anything about me personally.
The Chairman. Did he ask you any questions along that line?
Miss Waring. Oh. no.
Mr. Casey. What was the date of that meeting ?
Miss Waring. That was in 1934, I believe it was April.
Mr. Dickstein. Proceed from then on; were his men in uniform?
Miss Waring. His men were not in uniform.
]VIi\ Dickstein. And then what happened ?
Miss Waring. He w^as in uniform, and when he came into my
apaitment with his bodyguards he sort of looked around the place
to be sure that he would be secure, and safe, and he dismissed his
bodj'guards and removed from his person a shoulder holster with a
gun. and kept on his person a hip holster with a gun in it.
Mr. Dickstein. In other words, he had two guns.
Miss Waring. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dickstein. Were the guns that you saw similar to that?
Miss Waring. Well, T dare say that that was one of the guns,
because I distinctly remember the "L" that had been carved in the
butt of it.
Mr. Thomas. Would you say that that was one of the guns?
7540 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Waring. I do say that that was one of the guns because I
remember that the "L" had been carved into it, and he spoke of it as
being a Luger, and I believe that that is a Luger.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. What happened after that?
Mr. Thomas. Before we go on with anything else, I would like to
clear up a few points on the gun. Do you believe that this is one of
the guns that he had ?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Yovi believe that that is one of the guns?
Miss Waring. I do.
Mr. Thomas. Well, Mr. Dickstein, how did you get the gun?
Mr, Dickstein. I got the gun when Mr. Kramer brought down all
of the material that was shipped in a big case, in a big box, I found it
in the box.
Mr. Thomas. The reason that you believe it was one of the guns that
Mr. Pelley had was because of the "L" ?
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Have you ever examined the date of that gun. Mr.
Dickstein ?
Mr. Dickstein. No ; I did not look at it until I found it in the rub-
bish. I paid no attention to it.
The Chairman. At any rate he had guns on him ?
Miss Waring. He had two guns.
The Chairman. What did he tell you that he was going to do?
Miss Waring. Well, he took about two hours and a lialf explaining
to me, thinking that I had a great deal of money, that I would come to
the support of the Silver Shirts and the Silver Legion, and likewise to
help him finance a magazine, Liberation, and he spent all of his time
telling me exactly what the purpose of the Silver Shirts was.
Tlie Chairman. What did he tell you with reference to that ?
]\fiss Waring. That they would eventually march on Washington,
that he would be the dictator of the United States, that he had pat-
terned his program exactly after that of Hitler in Germany, that he
was going to use the same termite method, and that his idea was defi-
nitely to take possession of the LTnited States, that between himself and
Royal Scott Gulden that they could place seven men around New York
City in key positions, and that these seven men could control New York,
meaning the water supply and the electrical supply, and transporta-
tion, and what not.
He told me that his troops were definitely being trained, that he had
ammunition, and that he had guns.
The Chairman. What issue did he say that he was going to rise to
power on ?
Miss Waring. On wliat issue ?
The Chairman. Yes; what issue?
Miss Waring. On the issue of fascism, and anti-communism, and
anti-Semitism, and pro-Germanism, and ]iro-nazi-ism, and he was
definitely tied up with the Nazis here. When I visited his offices here
in Washington at the Woodward Building, to see Mr. Toll, his ad-
jutant, Mr. Toll told me that the German steamship company was sup-
porting their publication in a measure, that they could not clo it osten-
sibly, but that they would send in money, for instance, $500 for an
advertisement the actual space for which cost $50, and that the Ger-
man steamship company here would charge up $500 to advertising,
and that only $50 of that $500 would be used for advertising.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7541
The Chairman. Primarily did he not emphasize and did yon not
y-ather from his conversation that what he songht to do was to stir np
racial hatred in tlie United States as a means of accomplishing what
he wanted to do?
Miss Warinc;. Yes.
The Chairman. That was the burden of his speech, was it not? Did
it not all hinge around the question of racial and religious hatred?
^liss Waring. Yes; he admitted that he was patterning his metliods
after the Nazi Government, which we understand is built on race
hatred and dictatorship.
Mr. Thomas. Had Mr. Pelley ever met yon before this time ?
Miss Waring. Before he was at my apartment ?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Well, it is not clear to me why Mr. Pelley thought
that you were a person of considerable means.
Miss Waring. Well, at that time I w^as living on Park Avenue,
and was, let us put it this way, not of considerable means.
Mr. Thomas. He gathered from the location of your apartment
that you were a person of considerable means ?
Miss Waring. Well, not alone that, but 1 had entertained Mr.
Gulden on many occasions in my apartment, and also Colonel Emerson,
and various people from the bund, and the impression was naturally
having been at my table, and seeing my surroundings, that I was
a person of affluence.
The Chairman. What I am trying to get the explanation of, is that
in order for you to gain their confidence you were compelled to
sympathize with their own views ?
Miss Waring. Oh, surely. I went to the bund meetings every
Tuesday night.
The Chairman. That is preliminary to this, that I am trying to
get, that you had to first go through some preliminary activity on
3'our part in order to gain their confidence.
Miss Waring. I started out by becoming a member of the Friends
of Germany, which was Colonel Emerson's outfit.
The Chairman. Do you speak German?
Miss Waring. I do ; yes.
The Chairman. Were you born in Germany ?
Miss Waring. No; but my grandparents were all Germans.
The Chairman. Do you speak it fluently ?
Miss Waring. Fluently enough to convince them that I was.
The Chairman. Did they ask you about your antecedents?
Miss Waring. I took an Aryan test, and I was proved 100 percent
Aryan.
The Chairman. Did they ask you about the question of whether or
not your people were from Germany, or anything of that sort ? The
reason I ask that is because there has been evidence that when anyone
joined the Friends of Germany or the bund that an investigation
was made of their parents in Germany.
Miss Waring. Mr. Gulden recommended me so highly and Colonel
Emerson recommended me so highly, I have always been mixed up
in German-American affairs on account of my ancestry, I have always
been interested in it, and consequently in what superficial investi-
gation of me that they made, they w^ere quite satisfied that my in-
7542 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
lerest was German-American, and then they gave me this test, they
burned a portion of my hair, and as I said I was proven to be com-
pletely Aryan, by having a sample of my hair burned. It burned
the right way and not the other, and so I was admitted.
The Chairman. Where did that occur?
Miss Waring. That was in Yorkville, that was one night when we
were in New York.
The Chairman. That was before they admitted you to the Friends
of New Germany?
Miss Waring. Yes.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Thomas. Have you visited in Germany?
Miss Waring. Yes ; 'in 1936.
Mr. Thomas. In 1936?
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. How long did you stay in Germany?
Miss Waring. Not very long, just long enough to get out.
Mr. Thomas. Well, about how long?
Miss Waring. I was only there in transit, going from Austria to
Belgium.
Mr. Thomas. What was your purpose of your visit at that time?
Miss Waring. I went over on a dual purpose. I went over to get
various interviews, and also to see what information I could gather.
Mr. Thomas. How long did you stay in Europe all told?
Miss Waring. Six weeks.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
The Chairman. Well, both the Friends of New Germany and
Gulden and Pelley and all of them were very much interested in the
question of whether a person was Aryan or not, were they not?
Miss Waring. Yes.
The Chairman. There was not any distinction between any of
them as to that requirement?
Miss Waring. One of their bylaws is that no person other than an
Aryan can become a member of either the Order of '76, or the Silver
Shirts, or any one of the organizations, or the Paul Reveres, or any
of the Shirt movements.
The Chairman. And from your experience you found that they
worked together sympathetically, that their aims and purposes and
their sympathies were all in common, is that right?
Miss Waring. How I got down to see Mr. Toll
Mr. DiCKSTEiN (interposing). Answer that last question.
Miss Waring. It was that Mr. Gulden sent me down, and I went
as an emissary of Mr. Gulden's.
The Chairman. While they had separate organizations, as a mat-
ter of fact it was all one and the same movement ?
Miss Waring, Definitely.
The Chairman,- All right.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. After you joined the Friends of Germany, then
you joined the next one?
Miss Waring. I joined the Friends of New Germany; that was Dr.
Greible's outfit.
]\Ir. DiCKSTEiN. Then you were a member of the Order of '76?
Miss Waring. Yes; and a member of the Paul Reveres.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. And then Pelley came and visited Gulden?
UN-AMERICAN PIKn^AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7543
Miss Wartxg. Yes; and ISIr. Gulden introduced me to Mr. Pelley
as his contidential secretary, and. naturally, Mr. Pelley was inter-
ested in knowing; what I had to say, and Mr. Gulden was interested
in havino- nie act as a liaison officer for him, as far as Mr. Pelley was
concerned, to see if he could not also jjet money from Pellev to con-
tinue the Order of "76.
The Chairman. So you think the real reason that Pelley came to
your apartment was upon the belief that he could secure financial
aid from you ?
Miss "Waring. I thini'C so, and also to interest my friends in joining
the Silver Shirts.
The (^HAiRMAN. Now, you have not finished the conversation or
what took place in the apartment. Have you given us in substance
everything that took place there ^
Miss Waring. Well, in substance. Well, he had a dossier with him
about Colonel Emerson, head of the Friends of Germany, and just
to show what type of a person he is, he was living with Colonel Emer-
son's son at that time, at the Hotel Edison, and, nevertheless, he
bi'ought to my house a very lengthy dossier exposing Colonel Emer-
son as being a thief and a crook, because he was afraid that Colonel
Emei*son was taking awaj' some of his power, and, of course, that
could not exist.
Anj'one who threatened to take away Pelley's throne, a charge was
trumped up against him, because he would not tolerate that, and he
very definitely stated that he was going to be the leader, and that
was all that there was to it.
The Chairman. After that meeting at the apartment, what next
occurred, and what was your relationship after that ?
]Miss Waring. The next day we had a meeting at Mr. Gulden's
office, Mr. Pelley, and Mr. Gulden, and Mr. Rawlins, and a gentleman
who was the leader of the Ku Klux Klan in the Westchester section
of Xew York State and in New York City, and another leader of the
Ku Klux Klan, I do not remember his name, and Mr. Pelley's two
bodyguards.
The Chairman. How did yon know that they were leaders of the
Klan, did they so describe themselves?
Miss Waring. Mr. Pelley introduced them as such, as leaders of the
Klan, who would gladly cooperate with Mr. Gulden, or with the
Friends of New Germany.
Mr. Orjrell also was there, and Mr. Oroell was at tliat time secretary
of the Friends of Germany.
The Chairman. And you met where?
Miss Waring. At j\Ir. Gulden's office.
The Chairman. Xow. what took place at that meeting?
Miss Waring. That was just sort of a rehash of what Mr. Pelley
liad told me the night before, and how tliey were going to plan to
take over the Government, and how eventually he would lead this
army as the White King into Washington, and it seemed to be a very
simple matter in his mind, because he felt that as he marched into
Washington thousands of people would simply join along in this
])i]grimage.
It is a little vague in my mind how the meeting ended, but I know
Mr. Pelley then went back to Asheville that night, and subsequently
7544 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
there was a great deal of correspondence between Mr. Pelley and Mr.
Gulden, and Colonel Emerson and the Friends of New Germany.
The Chairman. You continued as secretary to Mr. Gulden how
long after you met Pelley?
Miss Waring. I should say about 4 months or 3 months.
The Chairman. Did vou see Pellev thereafter, after the meeting in
Gulden's office?
Miss Waring. He was there twice, but I could not be too curious,
so I just greeted him and minded my own business.
The Chairman. But you did see the letters that passed between
Gulden and Pelley during that 4-month period ?
Miss Waring. I turned those over to the committee, to the Dick-
stein-McCormack committee. I took them.
The Chairman. You photostated them, and returned the originals
to Gulden's office files?
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. What year was that ?
Miss Waring. That was in 1934.
The Chairman. Well, now, is there anything else that occurred
during that 4-month period?
Miss Waring. Nothing except the cementing of these contacts
which had been made, and a constant interchange of ideas and propa-
ganda, and a more distinct tie-up every day with the Nazi Govern-
ment.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Did he say anything to you about army officers;
thai he had some control of the Army?
Miss Waring. He spoke about Captain Rubley, and I do not re-
member the names, very frankly, any more. They were all in the
reports which I made: there were various Army officers, National
Guardsmen, and what not.
The Chairman. Did you make this contact in the beginning for
tlie purpose of getting information? Of course you had no sym-
pathy with the movement?
Miss Waring. I was asked to make it because I spoke German, and
I discovered that Colonel Emerson and I had a mutual friend, Mr.
George Silvester Vierick, and that was before Mr. Vierick became an
agent of the Nazi Government.
The Chairman. I know him.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. He testified before your committee, I think.
Miss Waring. It was not very difficult to meet Colonel Emerson.
The Chairiman. Now, why did you quit the service of Mr. Gulden,
how did that happen? Did he discover who you were, or anything
about that? You were with, him 4 months after that?
Miss Waring. I believe that I quit Mr. Gulden just before the
executive session of the McCormack-Dickstein Committee in New
York, because I was asked to appear, but I did not appear except in
private sessions.
The Chairman. You never did testify ])ublicly?
Miss Waring. But I was afraid that I would have to, so I simply
faded out of the picture.
The Chairman. Did they ever discover that you had passed this
information on to someone else, or what your piu^^ose was?
Miss Waring. They did discover it.
rX-AMlORICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7545
The Ckaikmax. What did they do then, "when they discovered it,
did tliey ever aj^iu'oaeh von?
Miss Waking. AVell, Mr. Gulden did not, he naturally was so sur-
prised that he was taken off his feet, but Mr. Orwell and the Friends
of New Germany threatened to make it a little difficult for me a
cou]ile of times, but it did not concern me particularly, and the
Gernnni ])apers, of course, they attacked me. and I was put on the
unfriendly list in Germany, but other than that I have not suffered.
The CiiAiKMAN. Did Pelley try to contact you afterward^
Miss Warixg. Never.
Tile Chairman. He never did?
Miss Waring. No.
'^riie Chairman. Durino- the time wlien you were talkin^j to Pelley,
did he ever ask you for a donaticm?
Miss Waring. Not in so many words, he simply explained that any
support that I could cret for him would be to my benefit, I do not
know what benefit it was ffoino- to be, if I was fjoinff to be a White
Queen or not, but he made it very clear that anythino- that I did
for him would ultimately strenorthen my position.
The Chair:man. Now, when you joined these organizations, did they
issue you a membership card?
Miss AA^ARiNG. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you have those cards?
Miss Warix'g. That was turned over to the committee.
The Chairman. Over to the McCormack committee?
Miss Warixg. Yes.
Tlie Chairman^. Your membership cards in the Friends of New
Germany i
]\Iiss Waring. Yes; and my membership card in the Order of '76,
passinjr me throuirh- T^olice lines, when you became a member.
Mr. DicKSTEiN. Did they say that these membership cards passed
you through police lines?
Miss Waring. Yes. It said, in case of pogrom kindly pass ]Miss
Waring through police lines, as she has been proven 100-percent
Arjan.
The Chairman. Do you know where those membership cards are?
Mr. DiCKSTEix. I am looking for it, and I hope to find it. I recall
that Miss Waring turned over a batch of stuff to the committee, and
Mr. Ki-amer was the secretary of the committee, and I let him take
over all of the documents, and I have not touched any of these
documents.
The Chairman. Do you have any independent recollection that
you saw the membership cards that Miss Waring turned over?
Mr. DiCKSTEix'. I saw the card for the Friends of New Germany.
The Chairman. You do not recall about the others ?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. No ; I do not.
The Chairman. Did you turn over your cards to the McCormack-
Dickstein committee by mail or did you turn it over when you testi-
fied at the executive session?
Miss Waring. I do not remember.
Mr. DiCKSTEix\ My best recollection was that the story was this,
that we will locate them but here is what happened : Without going
into detail, we knew that we could not put her on the public witness
7546 UX-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
stand. She gave us all of this information in executive session, and
she never was a public witness, and at that time we told her and
instructed her to turn over all of the cards or documents that she
might have to the committee, or to Mr. Kramer or Mr. Randolph,
and Mr. Randolph kept some of this material aside from Mr. Kramer
up in the fifth floor of the Old House Office Building. It may be in
some of the files and I hope to pick that up, but I saw the card of
the Friends of New Germany.
The Chairman. Did you ever give your information to the De-
j)artment of Justice?
Miss Waring. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever approached by any Department of
Justice agent for information? The point I am asking about is that
under your testimony, these men were, as I understand you, they
Avere engaged in treasonable conduct.
Miss Waring. Very definitely.
The Chairman. There was no question about what they intended
to do, as they told you, was to bring about the overthrow of this
Government by force and violence?
Miss Waring. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. By organizing a revolutionary army and march-
ing on the city of Washington; that was the gist of it, was it not?
Miss Waring. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And I am wondering if that information was ever
brought to the Dejiartment of Justice for action under the statute
that we passed in 1918.
Miss Waring. The only information I remember having given was
indirectly, on the Nazi situation, but not on the Silver Shirt situa-
tion.
The Chairman. Well, did they not tell you that they were gather-
ing important military information in the United States?
Miss Waring. I beg your pardon.
The Chairman. Did they not tell you that they were gathering
important military information, secrets?
Miss Waring. That was a known fact, they had an espionage
bureau.
The Chairman. They did not conceal that from you?
Miss Waring. No; that was in their office in Washington.
The Chairman. To get military secrets to pass on to Germany ?
Miss Waring. That was in the Woodward Building, and they pub-
lished this confidential bulletin, which was distributed to their mem-
bers.
The Chairman. The confidential bulletin did not contain military
secrets, but they represented to you that they were obtaining military
secrets ?
Miss Waring. That is what they represented.
The Chairman. And it was no doubt in your mind from what they
said, what they were going to do with the military secrets?
Miss Waring. No ; none at all ; I was just incensed wlien Mr. Pellej^,
if I may be frank enough to say so, when Mr. Pelley stated here how
friendly he was, because I remember so distinctly his speaking very
differently to those within the "know," within his own circle, that he
was absolutely lying as he testified before you.
The Chairman. What do you mean, friendly about what ?
UN-AMERIdAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7547
Mis? Warixg. Til liis testimony before your conunittee.
Mr. Thomas. That is friendship for the Dies committee?
Miss Warixg. Yes.
^Ir. Thomas. What he was tryina" to do was to give us the kiss of
death, everybody knew that, however.
Miss Warixg. He also lauahed and scoffed at evervthinc; that the
Government was trying to do, as far as un-American activities.
. Mr. I)empsi:y. He did not say anytliing about tlie Dies committee
in liis conversation with you. The Dies committee was not then in
existence.
Miss Warixg. But he spoke about the McCormack-Dickstein com-
mittee.
The Chairmax. Well, now, was it their purpose to train their fol-
lowers alone; militarv lines?
Miss Warixg. Very definitely.
The Chairmax. Did they say that they had made contacts in the
^"^ational Guard, and in the military forces of the United States?
Miss Warixg. Mr. Pelley said that.
The Chairmax^. Mr. Pelley told you that ?
Miss Warixg. Yes; he was bragging, you see. His whole attitude
was what a great man he was.
The Chairmax. What did he tell you as to why the Government
did not prosecute him ^ Did he say he had some sort of influence?
Miss Warixg. He had too much strength, and the Government,
and the Nation at large, he felt, was in sympathy with his movement.
The Chairmax. Did he tell you that he had any other contacts here
in Washington that made him feel secure against prosecution?
Miss Warixg. I do not remember that he did. He told me about
a fund which was being raised, and he tried to get me to approach
several people to donate money to this fund, and he showed me several
letters, and he also sent me copies of letters to Mr. Gulden from these
])eople. saying that they would contribute very generously if they
were sure that Mr. Pelley would become the dictator of the United
States.
The Chairmax. Did v'ou think then from your work in the office,
did you think that they had much of a membership, a very large
membership '(
Miss Warixg. Yes; at that time. In 1934 I should think that Mr.
Pellev had around 80,000 to 100,000 men.
The Chairmax. He had 80,000 to 100,000 members?
Miss Warixg. Men, not women ; I am not counting the women
members.
The Chairmax. That is male membei's of the organization?
Miss Warix(;. Yes.
The Chairmax. What about the Order of "76, how many members
did they liave^
Miss Warixg. They had a small membership.
The Chairman. What was the membership in that organization?
Miss Warixg. I should say between 150 and 250.
The Chairmax. That is 150 to 250 people ?
jMiss Warixg. Yes.
The Chairman. What was the membership of the Friends of New
Germany ?
7548 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Waring. Oh, at that time I could not tell 3'ou, Mr. Dies; they
used to have five and six thousand people at the meetings in New York
alone.
The Chairman. At membership meetings or open meetings?
Miss Waring. Open meetings.
The Chairman. But you do not know whether the five or six thou-
sand were members ?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. May I say here that my figures from the units and
the cells, as they call them, is close to over 200,000 in the Greater City
of New York.
The Chairman. The testimony of the bund officials here under oath
Is that they had 80,(X)0 altogether.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. Mr. Chairman, I attended one of their meetings
in the Camp Siegfried. I could not get in, I was on the outside, and
there were over 28,000 to 30.000 members then, and they all passed in
with cards, in that one camp alone.
The Chairman. I was trying to gather from her if she had any
accurate information as to the membership of this organization while
she was a member, the Friends of New Germany. Did they represent
to 3'ou what the membership was?
Miss Waring. They represented a huge amount around the United
States.
The Chairman. What about your observation, or what did you
gather the membership strength was at that time?
Miss Waring. In New York City, or do you mean in the United
States?
The Chairman. In the Ignited States. Well, you would not know
what the membership would be in the United States.
Miss Waring. I could not say.
The Chairman. What about New York, at the meetings that you
attended ; you went to the closed meetings, did you not ?
Mis,s Waring. I went to the open and closed meetings.
The Chairman. In the closed meetings, how many people did they
have?
Miss Waring. They would have in the membership meetings, I
should say, around 2.000 or 3,000.
The Chairman. Two or three thousand ?
Miss Waring. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, were those people to a great extent, or a great
majority of those people, people of German descent?
Miss Waring. The great majority of them were Germans.
The Chairman. When I say Germans, or people of German descent,
many of them were naturalized citizens of the United States?
Miss Waring. Quite a few of them were, a lot of them had their first
papers.
The Chairman. Most of them were people who had either come to
the United States in recent years or people who came after the war?
Miss Waring. Oh, yes.
The Chaieman. And most of them had served in the German armed
forces during the war, had they not ?
Miss Waring. Yes.
The Chairman. You did not find any old line German stock ?
Miss Waring. None at all ; they were absolutely conspicuous by their
absence. They were all of the younger element.
UN-AMERKWN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7549
The Chairman. So that it is accurate to say that the bund movement
in the United States is hu-oely recruited from people who migrated to
this country after the AVorld War. is that not true?
Miss Wahing. I believe so.
The CHAiRjrAN. That was your observation, was it not?
]\[iss Waking. A great many of them emigrated since Mr. Hitler's
regime. A lot of them had. and a gi-eat many of them had only taken
out their first pajKH's. that were in the Friends of New (Termany.
The Chairman. In these meetings of the Friends of New Germany,
you hearcl a number of speakers. Did thev speak in German or Eng-
lish ?
ISIiss Waring. Yes.
The Chairman. They spoke in both German and English?
Miss Waring. Yes.
The Chairman. What was their allegiance as expressed in the
speeches and in the attitude of the listeners and their salutes? Was it
as proclaimed in the constitution of the bund, that they were loyal to
the United States, or was their real royalty to
iSIiss Waring (interposing) . They made no mention of loyalty to the
United States.
The Chairman. What was the gist of the burden of the whole
speeches ?
Miss Waring. The speeches opened with the Horst AVessel, and in
those days there was no sign of an American flag in the meetings at all.
It was only the Nazi flags and a great deal of bunting around the place,
and they opened their meetings with this national anthem.
Mr. Thomas. What national anthem i
Miss Waring. The Horst Wessel; and then they would have three
or four si^eakei's for the evening under the direction of either Dr.
Greible or Dr. Gissibl, or who happened to be the leader of that par-
ticular local at the time. I am (;nly speaking of the Yorkville local.
The Chairman. You say that Giesible was at that time leader of the
Yorkville branch?
Miss Waring. During the meetings that I went to Greible and
Giesible were there.
The Chairman. Giesible was never the leader of the New York
local, he was from Chicago.
]\Iiss Waring. He came to New York.
The Chaujman. You never did meet his brother, Peter Gissibl, he
was never there?
Miss Waring. I do not recall.
Tlie Chairman. All right. When they took charge of the meeting,
what did they do?
Miss Waring. AVell. they would have speaker^, really remarkable
speakers, because I do not see how people could become so incensed
for a fee against the Government. They would start off with the
attack against Roosevelt, and then, of course, being in New York
City, secondarily it would be Mayor LaGuardia, and then Congress-
men Dickstein and McCormack, and any Jewish leader that they
could think of at the moment who was in the public eye, and they
would defile them most nauseatingly. and, for instance, Giesible. when
he was leader, he insisted that all of the members of the Friends of
New Germany become American citizens, because as American citi-
lllg-S
7550 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
zens they would have much more to say, and there should be a greater
German representation in the United States Government.
Mr. Dempsey, What year was this?
Miss Waking. This was in 1934 ; 1933, 1934, and 1935.
Mr. Dempsey. What part of the year was all of this going on ?
Miss Waring. The first meetings that I went to were in the fall of
1933, and they continued through the year, and during the summer
of 1934, through the fall of 1934, and then they began to peter out
a little.
Mr. Dempsey. When were the attacks upon LaGuardia ?
Miss Waring. In 1934, and 1935.
]Mr. Dempsey. And he was elected in 1934, was he not ?
Miss Waring. I believe he was.
Mr. Dempsey. That was in November of 1934?
Miss Waring. Yes ; and he was running for election.
Mr. Casey. Was there an admission charged to these open meet-
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Casey. How much?
]Miss Waring. Fifteen cents for ladies, and I think it was 25 cents
for men, and this went to the winter relief in Nazi Germany.
Mr. Casey. Did Mr. Pelley ever tell you whether or not he was
going to arm his followers when they marched on Washington?
Miss Waring. Did he tell me that they were going to arm them?
Miss Waring. He did not say that he was going to arm them. He
said — his implication all through his conversation was that they were
armed at that moment.
Mr. Casey. And I thought that he told you that he expected as he
marched on Washington to have great hordes of people join in this
march ?
Miss Waring. Yes; along the road.
Mr. Casey. Did he ever say anything about whether or not they
would arm those people who came to the cause on the march to
Washington ?
Miss Waring. No; that he did not say. He simply spoke of his
own legion as being an armed legion. Whether these people that they
picked up en route would be armed or not I don't know. He prob-
ably had visions of their appearing with rifles on their shoulders.
Mr. Casey. Did he impress you as suffering from delusions of
grandeur, being under the influence of delusions of grandeur when
he was in your apartment?
Miss Waring. Yes ; he impressed me as being a man of tremendous
ego, tremendous.
The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, any other questions?
Mr. DicKSTEiN. Now, with the reservation that I may submit what-
ever else I can find to tie up this, and on the question of the Christian
Front and the Christian Mobilizers, I will take it up with you, or
your committee.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask Miss Waring a couple of ques-
tions.
Miss Waring, have you or any of your friends any contact with
this man Gulden, since you left?
Miss Waring. I have.
Mr. Thomas. You have, yourself?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 755]^
Miss Wahixg. Yes.
JNIr. Thomas. Wluit years did yon have contact with Gnlden?
INliss Waring. xVbout 6 months ago.
Mr. Thomas. Six montiis ago?
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Was he still interested at that time in these same sort
of so-called Fascist movements?
jNIiss AVartxo. I caiTt say that. I met him on the street, and Ave
chatted i'or abont half an hour and he told me that he was still inter-
ested in any anti-connnnnistic organizations, but he made no mention
at all of the Silver Shirts.
Mr. Thomas. Is he in the same business now?
Miss AVarixg. He is in the real-estate business.
Mr. Thomas. In New York City?
Miss Warixg. Yes.
Mr. VooRHis. How did it happen, didn't he show any resentment
against you at the time that you met him there on the street?
Miss Waring. No; he did not.
Mr. VooRHis. How do you explain that?
jNIiss Waring. Well, he is so completely out of the picture now, and
I think that he got over his resentment. He feels himself to be a
patriot, and he feels that our having spoken of them and brought to
light the Nazi activities in this country, that in a measure I Avas as
much of a patriot.
Mr. V(.0RHis. He Avas in sympathy with that part of it, Avith
bringing to light the Nazi activity ?
Miss AVarixg. The communistic actiAnties particularly.
Mr. VocRHis. Either one of them he Avould be in sympathy with?
Miss Warixg. Yes; at this point.
Mr. VooRHis. Then he avouIcI not agree Avith Pelley noAv as he did
before ?
Miss Warixg. I haA-e no idea, ^Ir. Voorhis.
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I think that he Avould make a Aery important wit-
ness and give this committee some great light.
Mr. Lynch. May I ask you a question, JNIiss Waring?
Did ]Mr. IVlley ever say to you whether or not he or his men had
a supply of guiis or ammunition ?
Miss Waring. He told me that his legionnaires Avere armed.
Mr. Lynch. Did he say how they obtained arms or Avhere they
were procured?
Miss Waring. I remember some correspondence Avith either the
Winchester or the Remington Arms Co.
Mr. Lynch. Go ahead.
Miss Waring. I don't remember Avhich it was, that Pelley through
Gulden had. He did not eA^er specify any arsenals, any specific ar-
senals, if that is what you mean.
Mr. Lyxch. Did he ever order any rifles or ammunition from these
companies that you have mentioned. Winchester or others?
Miss Warixg. That I cannot tell you but he did tell me that he had
to charge a rather large initiation and membership fee so that he
could pi'ocure various ammunitions and uniforms and Avhat not for
the legionnaires.
Mr. Lynch. Did he ever say that he had procured those?
94931 — iO— vol. 12 23
7552 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Waring. He told me that definitely, his legionnaires were
armed.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know whether or not there was ever turned
over to the Department, of Justice the information which you gave
to the New York committee, with regard to the overthrow of the
Government and marching upon the Government?
Miss Waring. No.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever see any officials of Germany in Mr. Gul-
den's office in New York, either from Washington, or from Germany,
who happened to come in there from time to time, and if so who
were they?
Miss Waring. I do not remember seeing anyone at Mr. Gulden's
office other than Mr. Orgell or Colonel Emerson and Captain Men-
sing, of the North German Lloyd, but we were together on many
parties at the German ships, on the Europa and the Bremen and
Deutschland.
Mr. Lynch. You mean by "we," who?
Miss Waring. Mr. Gulden, and Mr. Orgell and I.
Mr. Lynch. What w^mld be discussed on those parties when you
would be on the Europa or other German boats, with regard to the
matters which we are investigating here ?
Miss Waring. Nothing pertinent. These were social affairs,
simply to gather sympathizers and so on.
Mr. Lynch. Were the head officers of the steamship lines, would
they be present on these occasions ?
Miss Waring. Yes; there were some.
Mr. Lynch. And they would entertain anyone who was interested
in the German movement, entertain them lavishly?
Miss Waring. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. By indirection, at least, urge them to get additional
members ?
Miss Waring. Well, that I cannot say, honestly.
Mr. Lynch. Is there anything of any importance that occurred
on any of those meetings on board ship that would be helpful to the
committee with regard to the activities of the German element in
this country?
Miss Waring. Well, the s]jread of written or printed propaganda.
Mr. Lynch. Did they furnish that?
Miss Waring. Well, all of these boats had that on board.
Mr. Lynch. That is all.
Mr. Casey. With reference to the correspondence which you say
Pelley had through Gulden, with either the Remington or Winchester
Arms Co., did you have anything to do with typing or dictating
those?
Miss Waring. I took them and had them photostated and put them
back.
Mr. Casey. Do you know where the jDhotostatic copies are?
Mr. DiCKSTEiN. I remember one photostatic copy of some corre-
spondence with some outfit in Connecticut, whether it is the Reming-
ton or some other outfit, in which they were negotiating some arms,
and that is the letter I am looking for. I think that I can find it.
Mr. Casey. Would not the Remington or the Winchester have the
letters which Avere sent to them?
UX-AINIEKKAX PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7553
Mr. DicKiSTON. I tliink so.
Mr. Casp:y. About what time was that correspondence?
Miss Waring. That was in the s])ring of 1934.
Mr. Thomas. Where did you have your letters photostated?
Miss AVarixg. 11 West Forty-second Street.
Mr. Thomas. Do you recall the name of the place?
Miss Waring. I do not.
The Chairman. All ri^ht. irentlemen, if that is all, the committee
will stand adjourned until tomorrow mornin<^ at 10:30.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m. adjournment was taken to 10 : 30 a. m.
tomorrow, Wednesday, April 3, 1940.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 3, 1940
House of IIepresentati\'es,
Special Committee to Investigate
Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. G.
A hearing of the Special Committee to Investigate Un-American
Activities convened at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucns room of the House
Office Building, AVashington, D. C, the Hon. Martin Dies (chairman)
presiding.
Also present: Sol H. Cohn, appearing as an attorney and counsel
for Thomas F. P. O'Dea.
The Chaikman. The committee will come to order.
The Chair appoints a subcommittee composed of the chairman, Mr.
Casey of Massachusetts, and Mr. Thomas of New Jersey, for the pur-
pose of hearing the witnesses. This subcommittee is appointed due
to the absence of a quorum of the full committee. If a quorum comes
in, as it probably will in a few minutes, the Chair will then resolve
this into a full committee.
Mr. O'Dea, will you please come to the witness stand?
STATEMENT OF THOMAS F. P. O'DEA, PKESIDENT, YOUNG
COMMUNIST LEAGUE OF MASSACHUSETTS
Mr. CoHx. I represent Mr. O'Dea.
The Chairman. ]Mr. Cohn appears as the attorney in behalf of
Mr. O'Dea.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. Will vou please state your full name?
]Mr. 0"Dea. Thomas F. P. O'Dea.
]Mr. Matthews. Where do you live?
]\Ir. O'Dea. In Boston.
Mr. Matthews. What is yowv address?
^Ir. O'Dea. 295 Huntington Avenue, Boston.
Mr. ^Matthews. Will you please give briefly your educational back-
ground ?
Mv. O'Dea. I went 8 years to St. Joseph's School.
The Chairman. We liave a quorum present, and we will go into the
full committee, with Mr. Dompsey, of New Mexico; j\Ir. Casey, of
INIassachusetts, and the chairman, and Mr. Thomas, of New Jersey.
Now, you may proceed.
Mr. O'Dea. I went 8 years to St. Joseph's School in Amesbury,
Mass. I went 4 years to Amesbury High School, and graduated m
1938. I was out of school a year and unable to get work, and man-
7555
7556 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
aged together ^Yith my family to scrape together enough money to go
to 4 years of Wentworth Institute, which is a technical school located
in Boston. There I took a technical course in printing. That is all
of my formal education.
Mr. Matthews. Where were you born?
Mr. O'Dea. I was born in Amesbury, Mass.
Mr. Matthews. When?
Mr. O'Dea. In December; December 1. 1915,
Mr. Matthews. How are you employed at present ?
Mr. O'Dea. I am the president of the Young Connnunist League of
Massachusetts.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you held that position?
Mr. O'Dea. Since February of 1939.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. Since the fall of 1933.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you join the Young Communist
League?
Mr. O'Dea. In my home town.
Mr. Matthews. In Amesbury?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Who recruited you into the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, I do not recall right now, as a matter of fact,
that was a long time ago. I was interested in the ideals of Com-
munism for several months or a year or a year and a half before
I joined the Young Communist League.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever held any other positions in the
Young Connnunist League than the one that you hold at present?
Mr. O'Dea. I was a member of the State Committee.
Mr. Matthews. Any other positions?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not recall any other; no.
Mr. Mattheavs. Where aie the headquarters of the Young Com-
munist League of Massachusetts?
Mr. O'Dea. At 15 Essex Street, Boston.
Mr. Mattheavs. What territory is included under your jurisdiction
as president of the Young Communist League of Massachusetts, any
territory other than the State of Massachusetts?
Mr. O'Dea. No. Theoretically, yes, perhaps; but practically, no.
Mr. Matthews. What would be included theoretically that is not
included practically ?
Mr. O'Dea. Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, we liaA^e a few mem-
bers in New Hampshire and Vermont, I forgot that, and Rhode
Island.
Mr. Matthews. And do you maintain contacts with them as presi-
dent of the State League in Massachusetts ?
Mr. O'Dea. I do.
Mr. Matthews. How many members of the Young Communist
League ai-e there in the territory over which you are president?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not know exactly, I would say about maybe 300
to 350.
Mr. Mattheavs. Three hundred to 350?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7557
]\li-. Mathikavs. J)() you not keep a record of the number of mem-
bers of the Youn<r Connnunist League i
]Mr. O'Dea. No ; I have no exact record.
Mr. Matthews. Do you make any knid of report to the national
lieadquarters of the Youn<>- Connnunist League concerning the num-
ber of members ?
Mr. O'Dea. No; just tlie kind of report that I made to you right
now.
^Ir. Matthews. You write them that you have approximately 300
to 850 members ('
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. MA'rrHEWS. Do you make any other kind of report to the head-
quarters of the Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. No; no regular reports of any kind.
Mr. Matthews. Are there dues in the Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. How much are the dues?
]Mr. O'Dea. They vary from about 10 cents a month to about a
quarter a month.
Mr. Matthews. And what disposition is made of these dues?
Mr. O'Dea. We keep half of the 10 cents, which is a nickel, and
we send 5 cents to the national office.
]Mr. Mattheavs. Then you do make some kind of a financial report ?
Mr. O'Dea. We send in that money: that is right.
^ Mr. Matthews. Now. where are the national headquarters of the
Young Communist League located?
Mr.^ O'Dea. I think it is 799 Broadway, New York.
]Mr. ]\1atthews. What publication does the Young Communist
League bring out ?
Mr. O'Dea. You mean nationally or in the State?
Mr. ]\L4tthews. Nationallv.
Mr. O'Dea. The Eeview. ^
Mr. Matthews. Where is that ])ublished?
Mr. O'Dea. It is published in New York. I do not know the exact
address. I think it is the address of the national headquarters.
Mr. Matthews. That is 799 Broadwav, New York?
Mr. O'Dea. I think so.
Mr. ^Matthews. Is 799 BroadAvay the building which has another
entrance, whicli address is sometimes used, as East Eleventh Street?
Mr. O'Dea. No. or wait a minute.
Mr. Matthews. Or 8 East Eleventh Street?
]Mr. O'Dea. I am very unfamiliar with New York.
^Ir. Matthews. Have you ever been to the national headquarters
of the Young Communist League ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes ; once or twice,
Mr. Matthews, How often?
Mr. O'Dea. I have only been tliere once or twice.
Mr. Matthews. Do you bring out any publications locally?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, we have issued leaflets.
Mr. Matthews. Anything other than leaflets?
Mr. O'Dea. No; not that I can think of. Certainly nothing very
big.
Mr. ]\LvTTHEws. In what places under your jurisdiction are there
groups of members of the Young Communist League?
7558 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. O'Dea. In Boston and Greater Boston.
Mr. Dempsey. Where do they get the material for the leaflets and
what is the type of leaflet that is issued ?
Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe, Mr. O'Dea, what type
of leaflets are issued, and where you get the material ?
Mr. O'Dea. You liave copies of those leaflets, we issue leaflets, and
we issued a leaflet the other day on the question of the rise in juve-
nile delinquency in Massachusetts. Practically every time one picks
up a newspaper you read about youth being driven to crime, and we
issued a leaflet stating the reason for this is that they did not have
jobs, and that they should be given jobs, and we also said that we
thought that the youth wanted jobs.
The Chairma]s\ That i.s not responsive to the question: he is asking
you a general description of the leaflets that you issued.
You issue leaflets on juvenile delinquency and what other subjects?
Mr. O'Dea. I am sorry ; I thought thai: was what I Avas doing.
Tlie Chairman. Give anothei- subject that you issue leaflets on.
Mr. O'Dea. We issued a leaflet on the question of war.
Mr. Dempsey. Where do you get the material for that ?
Mr. O'Dea. One get,s that material by reading.
Mr. Dempsey. Where did you get it?
Mr. O'Dea. From reading the newspapers.
Mr. Dempsey. It was not sent to j- ou from headquarters ?
Mr. O'Dea. Certainly not.
Mr. Dempsey. You never had any information from headquarters
to publish such a leaflet ?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Dempsey. In other words, each branch of the Young Com-
munist Leage gets together what they desire to distribute and dis-
tribute that irrespective of what the national organization thinks
about it?
Mr. O'Dea. We know our opinions on subjects, and we are able to
i,ssue leaflets, and we do not get any instructions on how to issue
leaflets.
Mr. Dempsey. Nor do you get the material which is contained in the
leaflet.
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Thomas. Right at that point, Mr. Chairman, how is it, then,
that all of the branches of the Young Communist League sent out
leaflets at the same time on the same subjects?
Mr. O'Dea. I did not know that they did.
Mr. Thomas. Do you not know that at the present time they are all
sending out leaflets in regard to war, and also in regard to juvenile de-
linquency ?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, I think that it is not hard to answer that. The
point is that everybody is talking about the^e subjects, and we are
talking about them, too.
Mr. Thomas. You do have a contact, though, with the national
headquarters, and discuss these various subjects, do you not?
Mr. O'Dea. I have not discussed these subjects with the national
headquarters; we issue the leaflets on our own initiative.
Mr. Thomas. But you receive some word from the national head-
quarters on these particular subjects?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7559
Mr. O'Dea. I do not recall, to be frank with you. and if I did I did
not pay any attention to it becanse I issued these leatiets and my liead-
qiiartei-s issued these leaflets on our own initiative.
The C'liAiKMAN. Now, did I understand you to say that you have
350 members about in the State of Massachusetts?
Mr. O'Dka. That is right.
The Chairman. You do not know hoAv many you have in Maine
and Xew Hampshire and these other States that theoretically are
under your jurisdiction?
Mr. 0"De.\. It is very small, I do not know how many.
Mr. jNIatthews. Now, ]\Ir. O'Dea, will you give us the names of
the leadjng branches, or centers, or whatever you call the local unit
of the Young Connnunist League?
Mr. O'Dea. You have a list of them there. I do not know if I can
recall all of them, but we have them in Boston, in the towns around
Boston, the Greater Boston area, and in AVorcester and Springfield,
and most of the towns in the Greater Boston area.
Mr. Matthews. Do any of these local branches of the Young Com-
munist League bring out publications of any kind ?
Mr. O'Dea. They issue leaflets.
Mr. Matthews. Have you issued any recent leaflets in such local
groups ?
Mr. O'Dea. Probably; I do not know.
^Ir. ]\LvTTHEWS. You do not know of any such leaflets issued by
an}- local group ?
Mr. O'Dea. I know that a leaflet was issued by the Young Com-
munist League of Worcester on the question of commemorating the
Easter week uprising in Ireland, which was the fight for Irish free-
dom in 1916, that is the latest one that I know of.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a branch of the Young Communist
League in Cambridge?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. What is that branch called ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is the Emerson Club, affiliated with the Young
Communist League; that is its full title.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a Young Communist League at Har-
vard?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Is that known as the Harvard Young Communist
League ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Hoav many members are there in that branch?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, between 35 and 50, and maybe 60, I am not sure
right now.
Mr. ^Matthews. Are all of the members of the Harvard Young
Communist League students in Harvard University?
Mr. O'Dea. I presume so; they should be.
Mr. jNIatthews. Do you know anything to the contrary — do you
know that any of them are not students at Harvard ?
Mr. O'Dea. They all are, in my opinion.
Mr. ]Mai THEWS. Did not the Harvard Young Communist League
recently bring out a leaflet?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right ; a very fine leaflet, too.
7560 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. You forgot that one a moment ago, did you not?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Is that a copy of the leaflet brought out by the
Harvard Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. I will ask that this be marked as an exhibit. The
leaflet is entitled "Is the New Deal Being Scuttled? Are We Head-
ing Toward War ? Wliat Can the People Do About It ? A Statement
by the Harvard Young Communist League."
Mr. O'Dea. It is a real good example of good Harvard scholarship,
too.
Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any communications relating to this
pamphlet from persons who disagreed sharply with you as to its
scholarship ?
Mr. O'Dea. Not that pamphlet, but with one previously issued.
(The document referred to above was marked "Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Matthews. Did these correspondents take issue with you on
the question of scholarship ?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, you have the letters there; you can read them.
They are certainly not very scholarly even if the gentlemen who
wrote them have scholarly reputations.
Mr. Matthews. I show you a letter addressed to Pat O'Dea, Box 23,
Essex Station, Boston, Mass., dated March 5, 1940. Did you receive
that communication ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes. The story on this communication is the fol-
lowing
Mr. Matthews. That is all right ; I just asked the question.
Mr. O'Dea. I sent a copy of that in, and this was the answer; a copy
of that printed leaflet went in to New York, and this was the answer.
Mr. Matthews. This is signed "Comradely yours," and also "Edu-
cation Dept, N. C." That means the national committee, does it not?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. That letter read as follows :
Da:VK Comrade O'Dea : Thank you for the copies of the Harvard Y. C. L.
folder. It is exceptionally well done and should prove to be quite effective.
The only statement that might be questioned is the reference in the very last
paragraph which calls for "support for a legislative furthering of New Deal
aims." Now, while the substance of this is correct, the expression "New Deal
aims" is perhaps not the most advisable. The "New Deal" is so completely
associated with Roosevelt, that its acceptance might mean acceptance of its
present contents as well. The "New Deal" today is certainly not something the
masses should support. It might also have been advisable to speak more
speciflcally of the need of promoting a new anti-imijerialist, anti-war party of
the people. Congratulations on a splendid .iob.
Is that the text of the letter, as you recall it?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Now, this is from the national headquarters of the
Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. It is a statement or a criticism of the statement
issued by the Harvard Young Communist League, which amounts
to instructions for future propaganda, is it not?
Mr. O'Dea. That I liave to answer at a little length, because the
leaflet itself is a large four-page leaflet, and if the gentleman and
the committee will look at it they will see that it deals with a great
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7561
deal of material, niul that letter takes one little specific instance, and
it is a criticism in the same form that a book review is a literary
criticism, and it is not an instruction by any means.
Mv. IMatfiieavs. When you brino- out your next piece of literature,
or Avhen you make si)oeches, you will make a point to follow the
criticism contained in this letter, will you not?
Mr. OT)ea. I do not know ; I camio't answer that right now.
Mr. Mattiieavs. I'ntil you get some further indication of the wishes
of the national headquarters, you will carry out those instructions,
will 3'ou not?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not know. I caimot say Avhat I will say when I
go out ; I do thiidv that the criticism is a correct one. My own per-
sonal ()])inion is that I think it is a correct one, if that is the question.
]Mr. Matthews. So therefore since you look upon it as correct, you
do adopt it as your present viewpoint?
]V[r. O'Dea. It was my viewpoint before.
Mr. CoHX. Will you olfer the original leaflet in evidence?
]\Ir. INIatthews. I have.
I will oiler the letter of ]\rarch 5 in evidence as exhibit No. 2.
(The document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2.")
]Mr. ^Matthews. AVho is the secretary of the Harvard Young Com-
munist League?
Mr. O'Dea. I refuse to answer that question because I believe that
by answering that question I will expose this person to economic per-
secution. He will be unable to get a job, and getting a job is the only
vfaj he will be able to live, and I think under the fourteenth amend-
ment, that is due process, his only property will be his scholarship
and his job, and he will lose that.
The Chairman. Then you decline to answer?
Mr. Lynch. I think that that should be stricken from the record,
all of the witness's statement except the statement that he refuses to
answer, on the ground that it is entirely immaterial. The only right
that he has to refuse to answer is one, that his answer might tend to
incriminate him; and if he objects on that ground why, of course,
that is all right, but otherwise he has absolutely no right to refuse.
Mr. CoHN. I think that is an incorrect statement of the law handed
down by the United States Supreme Court in the case of Sinclair
against the United States and other cases. I think that the objection
of the witness is well taken.
Mr. Casey. What is the Sinclmr cane?
]Mr. CoHX. In tliat case the Supreme Court said that the witness
had other rights to object in addition to the one, the privilege against
self-incrimination. It said that, for example, the committee had no
right to delve into matters that were personal or private matters
affecting the witness, and other cases held that the committee may
only ask questions, and the witness has the right to refuse to answeV
questions which are not material to the investigation, questions that
are not relevant to the investigation, questions that are not within the
scope of the investigation.
The connnittee is limited by those decisions of the United States
Supreme Court in addition to the constitutional ]-)rovision against
self-incrimination.
May I further say that it is my belief that the witness has a full
right to explain his refusal to answer.
7562 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. I submit that none of the reasons advanced Ijy Mr.
Cohn are applicable to this witness. In otlier words, this witness
does not say that they are not material, this witness does not say that
they are personal to him, bnt he says that they are personal to some-
one else, and, of course, he has no right to attempt to protect some-
body else.
Mr. Cohn. We are going to bring to the United States Supreme
Court the question of whether a witness has a right to decline to
answer questions, in view of what the chairman has already stated
in the record, that he proposes to use any names of Communist mem-
bers for a blacklist to see to it that those
The Chairman (interposing). That is stricken from the record;
that is incorrect and will be stricken.
Mr. Cohn. That was the testimony when Mr. Cooes was exam-
ined. If my recollection is correct, the chairman then said that that
was his purpose, and I said under those circumstances that the wit-
ness has a right to decline to answer.
The Chairman. That is stricken from the record; you are incor-
rect.
Mr. Cohn. I respectfully object.
The Chairman. The Chair will take under advisement the ques-
tion of whether n witness can state the reasons for his declining to
answer. The Chair is not familiar with the decisions with respect
to that, but for the time being we will take that under advisement.
The Chair now directs you to answer the question that was asked you.
Do you decline to do so?
Mr. OT)ea. I do, for the reasons stated.
The Chairman. You have already said that. You decline to
answer the question?
Mr. O'Dea. I do, for the reasons stated.
Mr. Casey. First, let us lay a little groundwork. Do you know
who the secretary of the Young Communist League at Harvard is?
Mv. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And the next question, I believe, which you refused to
answer is : Who is he ?
Mr. O'Dea. I refuse, for the stated reasons.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Dea, is the secretary of the Young Com-
munist League at Harvard secretly a member of the Young Commu-
nist League ?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not know.
Mr. Matthews. Has his name ever appeared on any publications,
leaflets, or in any other public manner as secretary of the Young
Communist League at Harvard?
Mr. O'Dea. No, as far as I know; unless there is one there that I
have not seen.
Mr. Matthews. Are the 50 to 60 members of the Young Commu-
nist League at Harvard secretly members of your organization?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not know.
Mr. Matthews. If you do not know that they are secret members,
what is the ])urpose of shielding or concealing their identity at the
present time?
Mr. O'Dea. Because, as I explained before, that — in the first place,
let me say just in passing that I am not intimately connected with
UN-AMEllICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7563
all of these details. Secoiully, even if I wus 1 should not feel (jhliged
to giAe these names because these people have the rijjht to their own
l)roj)erty. which is their scholastic course, and to their property
which they will oet after school, which is a job; and 1 feel that un-
der the Constitution of the United States, the fourteenth amendment,
that they should not be deprived of this, and I shall not be a party to
putting- anybody on a blacklist, and I feel that I am safe on consti-
tutional oi'ounds.
Mr. Matthews. It is your general statement that these individuals
are secretly membere of the organization, and are secret because of
some fear that their membership might jeopardize them in some way
in their work iu the future.
Mr. O Dea. That I do not know.
The Chairman. Let me follow that up. Are these individuals mem-
bers of the Young Communist League under their right names or un-
der an assiuned name I
Mr. O'Dea. I do not know what names they are members under.
Their right names, I presume.
The Chairman. You have never seen their names on any member-
ship list or any cards or anything ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right ; I never have.
The Chairman. How do you know that you have got that many
there (
Mr. O'Dea. I do not know too exactly, I gave you an approximate
figure, but I do know that there are around 50.
The Chairman. How many members do you know pereonally or
know who they are? Who are the names that you know? You say
that you know who the secretary is, and how many of the 50 or 60 do
you know '\
]Mr. O'Dea. Twent3'-five, maybe.
The Chairman. Twenty-five of them?
j\Ir. O'Dea. Yes.
The Chairman. Are those 25 members of the Young Communist
League under their right names or under an assumed name?
^Ir. O'Dea. LTnder their right names.
The Chairman. Under their right names?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
jNIr. ^L\TTiiEws. Have you ever seen their membership party books?
Mr. O'Dea. They have no books.
]Mr. Matthews. Their Y. C. L. membership books?
Mr. O'Dea. I may have seen the membership books of one or tvco
or three or four of them, but I do not recall.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean to testify that you know that none of
these members of the Young Communist League are also members of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. O'Dea. Some of them may be.
Mr. Matthews. Then you would modify the statement that they
have no party meml)er,ship ?
]Mr. O'Dea. I mean tliat in general they have not.
Mr. ^Lvtthews. It is very often the case, is it not that individuals
may be members both of the Connnunist Party and of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. It is always the case that members may be both members
of the Communist Pai-ty and the Youug Communist League, but it is
not generally true.
7564 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. I am.
Mr. Matthews. And also a member of the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matihews. Under what name are you a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. My right name.
Mr. Matthews. And also in the Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. I am a candidate for office in the Connnunist Party.
Mr. MATTHEl^vs. What is the main campaign of the present time
conducted or carried on by the Young Communist group in the
State of INIassachusetts. Do you have some outstanding campaign
■^^t the ])resent in that State?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, probably to elect me secretary of state.
Mr. Casey. To elect you as what ?
Mr. O'Dea. For the Commonwealth of ^Massachusetts, myself.
Mr. Casey. You are a candidate for that position?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes; for secretary of state for the Commonwealth of
Massachusetts.
Mr. Matthews. How old are you?
Mr. O'Dea. I am going on 25.
Mr. Matthews. Have you had any experience in Government
work?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, no; I cannot say that I have, but I learn
quickly.
Mr. Matthews. Are there any other campaigns in which the Young
Communist League of ^Massachusetts is interested besides that of
electing you to the position of secretary of state of Massachusetts?
Mr. O'Dea. We are interested in all things that are for the wel-
fare of young people. AVe are interested in peace, we are interested
in wiping out juvenile delinquency.
Mr. Matthew^s. I am speaking of some specific campaign, do you
have a specific campaign revolving around the question of peace?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, peace is all-inclusive, and covered by every-
thing. I would consider it the one platform, or as one platform on
which I ran for office.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a specific campaign that you de-
scribe as such, that has to do with the question of peace?
Mr. O'Dea. I cannot say so. I may have used the term and re-
ferred to it as a specific campaign, but meaning it as a specific part
of the general activities of the Young Communist League.
Mr. Matthews. Do you not recall quite clearly and definitely that
3'ou do have a campaign that you have called a campaign that re-
solves around the question of peace?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, if you mean that peace activities, speaking for
peace, and trying to educate people how we can maintain peace, and
all of that sort of thing is part of the activities of the Y. C. L.
Mr. Matthews. What do you call that campaign ? How do you
describe it? Do you have any slogan by which you describe it?
Mr. O'Dea. We probably have several, I do not know.
Mr. Matthews. What is the outstanding slogan that you use to
describe that campaign?
Mr. O'Dea. "Keep America Out of the Imperialist War."
UX-AMERICAX PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7565
'Sir. Matthews. Do you have aii}' other slo*Taii that that ?
^Ir. O'Dea. Well, aw have a sloj^an, "Jobs. Not Guns," that is a
oooil sloji;aii.
^Ir. Matthews. Do you have any otliers? AYhat is your main
sloofan ?
Mr. O'Dea. "Keep America out of Imperialist Wars," that is our
main slogan.
Mr. Matihews. I read you a statement as follows: "We must be
prepared to launch a cam})ai<;n around the slogan, "The Yanks are
not coming." Are vou the author of that statement ^
Mr. UDea. 1 am'.
Mr. Matthews. Are you, or is that not one of your leading if
not the leading slogan of your campaign that has to do with the
question of peace (
Mr. 0"De-v. I said that we must launch a campaign around it, and
I cannot say that we have, but we have carried on general educa-
rional activities on the question of keeping America out of w^ar,
Mr. Matthews. But have you not fre(i[uently used that slogan,
"The Yanks are not coming"?
Mr. O'Dea. That is a slogan that has been used by a lot of people,
I think that that is a good slogan, too. I consider mj'self a Yank,
even if my name is "O'Dea."
Mr. ^Iai^hews. I show you a typewritten statement, jSfr. O'Dea,
and ask j^ou if you can identify that. You have seen the document
before you, have you not?
Mr. O'Dea. I want to see the whole of it now. You don't mind
if I take a minute?
I think so: yes, sir.
!Mr. ;^T\TTHEWS. Will you please describe what this document was?
Mr. O'Dea. Let me look at it again.
]Mr. Matthews. Here it is.
Mr. O'Dea. That was an article which I was going to write and I
never sent it in.
Mr. ^Iatthews. When did you write this? During the present
year ?
]Mr. O'Dea. Yes. About, maybe a few days before I was visited
by the gentleman from your committee.
Mr. ^NIatthp^vs. In other words, this was written in the last 2
weeks, during the past 2 weeks?
^Nfr. O'Dea. Yes, or 3 weeks, maybe.
Mr. Matthews. Was this intended for publication in the Young
Comnnniist Review, or the Review (
Ml'. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Did the Young Communist League of Massachu-
setts ))ut on a cam])aign in connection Avith the so-called Washington
Pilgrimage to the Citizenship Institute of the American Youth
Congress which was held here in Washington in February?
Mr. O'Dea. Somewhat.
Mr. ^La'ithews. AVell. did you ])ut on a camDaijrn?
Mr. O'Dea. It depends on what you mean by "a campaign."
Mr. Matthews. In your own words, did you put on a campaign?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes: we spoke about it. W^e spoke about it at every
])lace we spoke, we told people that we thought it was a good thing
for young people to go to Washington, to learn democratic processes
7566 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and procedures, to leam how to express their opinions, and to learn
how to make the country feel that youth did not want to be involved
in war; we certainly did.
Mr. Matthews. I ask that this document identified by the witness
as an article prepared for the Keview, the national publication of
the Young Conmiunist League, be marked as exhibit No. 2-A.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2-A.")
Mr. Matthews. In this document you state, Mr. O'Dea:
In the campaign for the Washington Pilgrimage, wliat part did onr groups
play? An evahiation of this kind is particularly important at this time because
we want to prepare now for several campaigns much greater than any we have
participated in thus far.
That is an indication, is it not, that you did have some kind of a
campaign for that gathering here in Washington?
Mr. O'Dea. I used the term "campaign," as you will notice, in a
loose way. I don't mean that it was like Sherman's march through
Georgia. I used it as an attempt, that was a real campaign, Sher-
man's march, but it was no attempt to popularize any particular item
and a particular idea.
Mr. Matthews. Do the members of the Young Communist League
in Massachusetts picket the theaters where "Gone With the Wind" is
shown ?
Mr. O'Dea. They have not, but that is a thought that is a very
good idea. I consider that a very vicious, unhistorical, and distorted
moving picture.
Mr. Maithews. You have answered the question already.
Have you received any instructions to picket the theaters in your
locality ?
Mr. O'Dea. No; I don't remember any. We would not need in-
structions for such a thing.
Mr. Matthews. You do know the Young Communist Leagues in
other parts of the country are picketing such theaters?
?,'Ir. O'Dea. I think if Abraham Lincoln were living he would do
it with them.
Mr. Matthews. I read further:
Following the Washington Institute we must be prepared, together with the
whole youth movement in the State, to launch a campaign around the slogan,
'The Yanks Are Not Coming." to culminate in some demonstrative action on
April 6, the day that has been set aside by the N. M. U. as "The Yanks Are
Not Coming" Day.
What do the initials "N. M. U." stand for?
Mr. O'Dea. It stands for the National Maritime Union.
Mr. Matthews. Did the National Maritime Union initiate this
campaign known as "The Yanks xVre Not Coming?"
Mr. O'Dea. Well, according to the Boston newspapers which w^ere
the source of my information, I think so. I am not sure. The Boston
newspapers err sometimes but not too frequently.
Mr. Matthews. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker ?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you receive it?
Mr. O'Dea. I buy it at the newsstand.
Mr. Matthews. Do you read it?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
un-ajnierican propaganda activities 7567
^Ir. Mati'hews. Have you ever seen statements in the Daily Worker
to the etl'ec't that the campai<»n ''The Yanks Are Not Coming" was
Jauuc-hed bv the National ^Maritime Union?
JNIr. OT)ea. No.
Mr. Matthews. Yon do not read the Daily Worker very carefully,
tlo you ^
Mr. Coiix. T object to that question, the form of the question.
Mr. O'Dea. I am litei-ate. Mi'. Investi<>-ator. I cannot answer that
question right; I can't answer it according to degree. I don't know
how one measures it.
Mr. jNIatthews. Do you laiow the slogan "The Yanks Are Not
Coming," was first pro])osed by Mike Quin?
jSIr. O'Dea. I know that he wrote a pamphlet.
Mv. ^Matthews. Have you not seen reference in the Daily Worker
to the fact that Mike Quin did initiate this campaign by his pamphlet,
and it was then taken up by the National Maritime Union, and has
since become one of the major campaigns of the Communist Party
of the United States ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is news to me.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know who Mike Quin is?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Matthews. Is he a member of the Communist Party, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. O'Dea. Not to my knowledge. I don't know who he is. I
know he wrote a pamphlet.
Mr. Matithews. Do you know that he works on the Pacific coast as
a writer for the People's World?
Mr. O'Dea. I thiiik that I read that in the Boston papers.
Mr. Matthews. And j^ou say it is news to you that the Communist
Party has taken up as one of its major campaigns this campaign,
"The" Yanks Are Not Coming?"
]Mr. O'Dea. I know that the Communist Party has made it one of
its major interests to help to keep America out of war, and carry on
all possible education to keep America out of war, and I don't know
about there being any specific campaigns.
]Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see that leaflet, Mr. O'Dea ?
Mr. O'Dea. I did.
Mr. Matthews. This leaflet is entitled, "Irish Patriots Hung.
Chamberlain Is the Hangman,'" issued by tlie Communist Party of
Massachusetts, 15 Essex Street, Boston?
The outstanding type in the center of the page is The Yanks Are
Not Coming. Under that are the slogans, Keep America Out of
the Imperialist War by Opposing the Roosevelt War Budget.
No loaus or "relief" for the imperialist butcher, Mauuerheiin of Finland.
Feed America first. Jobs and security, not war, for the American people.
All support for a free and United Ireland.
Do you want to see that?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes. I don't think anyone could find fault Avith that
leaflet from the point of view of fact, and from the matter of opin-
ion. I don't find any fault with it.
Mr. Matthews. I ask that this be marked "Exhibit 3,'' the leaflet
containing the slogan ''The Yanks Are Not Coming" in bold type
issued by the Connnunist Party of Massachusetts.
94931— 40— vol. 12 24
7568 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 3.")
• Mr. Matthews. Mr. ODea, will there take place during' the next
2 weeks a demonstration by the students in the colleges of your juris-
diction on the subject of peace?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, for the last 6 j^ears, they always liave.
T]ie Chairman. He is asking you, this year, if you know.
Mr. O'Dea. I am going to answer that.
Mv. Matthews. I am not asking you about last year.
Mr. O'Dea. I presume so; yes, sir. Incidentally. ^Ir. Chairman,
I would like to have the right to answer the questions. 1 think that
I am entitled to that.
The Chaikman. You have to make your answer responsive. He
did not ask you about the 6 years. You certainly can answer a ques-
tion if you know, and if you do not knoAv, you can say "I don't
know."' If you know, you certainly can answer a question.
Mr. O'Dea. It was on the basis that they did take place in the
past, and I presume that they will take place this year.
The Chairman. Do you have any information that this will be
done, yourself?
Mr. O'Dea. Just general things that I have read.
The Chairman. Read where? In the newspapers?
Mr. 0"Dea. Yes.
The Chairman. You have no other sources of information as to
that ?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't recall now ; no. I don't think so.
Mr. Matthews. When will that demonstration take place, on
Ap'-il 19?
Mr. O'Dea. I would say, no, offhand; for the simple reason that
April 19 is a holiday in Massachusetts. It is Patriot's Day, the day
that the Battle of Lexington and Concord was fought. People from
other parts of the country usually don't know that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr Matthews. I show you another leaflet, Mr. O'Dea, and ask
you if you have seen a copy of that ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right; I have seen a copy of that.
Mr. Matthews. I will ask that this be marked as exhibit No. 4. This
is entitled '"America Can Stay Out of War."' "'Mobilize on April 19,
II a. m."
The witness has identified this as having seen it, and the slogan is
given, "The Yanks Are Not Coming."
(The leaflet was marked "Exhibit No. 4.")
Mr. Matthews. "The United Student Peace Committee, 347 Madi-
son Avenue.''
Mr. CoHN. May I see that ?
(A document was passed to Mr. Cohn.)
Mr. Thomas. I would like to know who issued that folder.
Mr. Matthews. According to the leaflet itself, this is a leaflet issued
by the United Student Peace Committee, 347 Madison Avenue, New
York City, and the names of nine organizations are given as those
which are apparently affiliated with that United Student Peace Com-
mittee.
Mr. CoHN. Could I ask that the names of those organization^ be
read into the record?
IX-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7569
Mr. Matthews. The names of the nine organizations are:
American Law Students Association ;
American StndcMit I'nion;
Anu'i'iran Youth Coiij;rcss;
Association of .Medical Students;
Chinese Students Association;
International Student Service;
National Intercollejiiate Cliristian Council;
National Negro Congress ;
National Student Federation of America.
The Chairman. In the absence of Mr. Dempsey. the committee goes
back into a subconnnittee with the chairman, Mr. Casey, and Mr.
Thomas acting as a subcommittee.
Proceed.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Dea, have you ever seen a copy of this bul-
letin?
Mr. ODea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. I will ask that this bulletin be marked as an ex-
hibit. It i,s entitled "Bulletin Xo. 1. February, 1940. The Yanks Are
Not Coming Connnittee."'
(Bulletin No. 1 was marked "Exhibit No. 5.")
Mr. jMatthews. ''The Yanks Are Thinking," by Mike Quin is the
leading article in the bulletin. This is published W District Council
No. 2 of the Maritime Federation of the Pacific.
On the back of the folder is a song entitled "The Yanks Are Not
Coming.'" Words by ]\Iike Quin.
The witness identifies this as having been seen by him also.
The Chairman. For the sake of the record, the committee now has
a quorum, and we are acting as a full committee.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Mr. O'Dea, is the Young Communist League, or
tlie members of the Young Communist League in Massachusetts, par-
ticipating in this demonstration of students on April 19?
Mr. O'Dea. The Young Communist League is not participating in
it. The members may participate in it as individuals as far as I
know.
Mr. jVLltthews. Has the question ever been taken up by your exec-
utive committee or board?
Mr. ODea. No.
Mr. Matthews. Isn't it to your knowledge, ISIr. O'Dea, that this
movement, known generally as "The Yanks Are Not Coming Com-
mittee," is the successor to the American League for Peace and
Democracy ?
Mr. OT)ea. I had not realized that. I never put any too great
attention in my mind, or em])hasis on, the American League for
Peace and Democracy, and it never was very important in Massa-
cluisetts, and I never heard very nnich about it.
Mr. Matthews. You did have a branch of the American League
foi- Peace and Democracy in Boston, did 3'ou not?
Mr. O'Dk-V. I don't know. All I know is that once I attempted in
1983, before I became a member of the Young Conmiunist League, to
organize one in my home town and we were going to get a speaker
which was going to be Mr. Matthews, but for some reason he did not
come, and we had someone else come.
7570 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. When was that, in 1933?
Mr. O^Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. That is when you were in Amesbiiry High School, Mr.
O^Dea?
JNlr. O'Dea. That was right after I graduated.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Dea, does the Young Communist League
make it one of its principles that every member of the Young Com-
munist League nnist join some mass organization and work in that
organization as a member of the Young Communist League?
^Ir. O'Dea. We do not make it a principle. We do encourage
people to join in order to be able to speak to young people about
peace, and to discuss the problems that alTect youth with them ; yes.
JSIr. Matthews. Well, do you not make it a ride, let us say, instead
of a principle, that every member of the Young Communist League
must belong to some non-Communist mass organization and work in
that organization in the interest of the viewpoint of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. ODea. No.
Mr. Matthews. I read you from page 2 of the document which
you have identified as exhibit 2 :
We must guarantee * * * that every league member becomes a member
of some mass organization.
Is that the policy of the Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. That was my personal policy, I mean that was my
personal statement. It has never been adopted as a policy anywhere.
Mr. Matthews. What is the purpose of having every league mem-
ber become a member of some mass organization? Can you outline
that briefly?
Mr. O'Dea. It was my personal statement. I made it because I
thought that it would be a very good idea to be able to talk to young
people about peace, and to talk to young people about the problems
affecting young people, and to be able to help the young generally
to reach a solution for these problems.
Mr. Matthews. I quote from this same document, the following:
In many cases we can send more than one person or even several persons
into an organization. Our less developed people can go into an organization
with one or two more developed people, and by working closely with them,
learn how to carry on such woi'k.
You refer there, do you not, to the work of the Young Communist
League ?
jNIr. O'Uea. The work of speaking to youth and talking to them on
the problems that affect them, yes.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean also to bring them under the influ-
ence of the viewpoint of the Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. To influence them to keep America out of war, to be
able to discuss with them and arrive at common conclusions as to how
ro best solve the question of getting jobs, and let us not use the word
"influence" as a fetish.
Mr. Matthews. I am using it here as you used it on page 3 of this
same document.
The group should discuss the work of these comrades,
refei'recl to in the passage just read
UN-AMERICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7571
;ind help thorn to work out ways aiul means on influcncinir tlu>so orsanizations,
of jjottins our idoas across in tlieso organizations, witlioul isolating our pi-ople
and antagonizing the iiu'iiihersliip.
Did you wiiti' tliat statement?
Mr. O'Df.a. Yes; that is i-ii^lU. to be able to discuss, you must
remember tliat younj; i)eo])le, you cant discuss with youno" people as
you would <i:ive a sociolooical lecture. Yon must discuss the thing
simply, try to arrive at a common nnderstandinj^ as to how these
problems can be solved, presentinp; onr own ideas and listening to
their ideas.
Mr. Matthews. Following the statement which I have just read,
you say :
We can do these things in the campaigns that are to be made on "The Yanks
Are Not Coming" and the American Youth Act.
Did you write that statement?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
]Mr. Matthitws. And again yon mean that in the non-Communist
youth organizations by working on these slogans and in sup])ort of
these measures you hope toi influence these organizations in such a
way that the ideas of the Young Communist League wall gain accept-
ance in these organizations?
Mr. O'Dea. Can I answer that?
Mr. Matthews. Is that correct?
]Mr. O'Dea. Can I answer it? The campaigns I refer to are not
"oiu" camjiaigns." but the campaigns of the youth organizations, and
we present our ideas in these campaigns as well as all other people.
]\Ir. ]\lATTHE^^'S. Now, did you do similar work in preparation for
the Washington Institute of America Youth Congress in February?
]Mr. O'Dea. "Well, in February we tried to talk about it with peo-
ple, tell them that it was a good idea.
Mr. ^Matthews. Who is the "Charlotte" referred to in your article
pre])ared for the Review, on page 4?
Mr. O'Dea. A member of the Young Communist Leagne.
Mr. Matthews. He refers to "Charlotte," "such as the one that
Charlotte described."
What is Charlotte's last name?
]\Ir. O'Dea. For the same reason as before, I feel that I will not
give her last name.
The Chairman. The Chair directs yon to give her last name,
and you decline to do so, is that correct?
Mr. O'Dea. For the reason I stated in the previons case.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
]\Ir. Casey. Yon know who she is?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
The Chairman. You do know ayIio she is?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Is her first name Charlotte ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
]Sfr. Matthews. Was this a second article prepared by you for pos-
sible ])ublication in the Review^?
:\rr. O'Dea. ?»Iay I look at it ?
^h-. Matthews. Yes.
IVIr. O'Dea. That Avas a speech I was going to give but I never
gave it.
7572 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Does much of j'oiir activity consist in writing ar-
ticles that are not published, and preparing speeches that you do not
deliver ?
Mr. CoHN. I object to the form of the question.
The Chairman. Do you often write speeches and articles that you
do not publish or deliver?
Mr. O'Dea. I seldom write speeches, to tell you the truth. I usu-
ally speak without writing them and it so happens in those two cases
that the speech was not given and that the article was not published,
and I am not an accomplished writer.
Mr. Matthews. This is a 10-page typewritten draft without a title
except at the top it is numberecl ''2'' and I will ask that it be accepted
as an exhibit for the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6.")
Mr. Matthews. Have you, jMr. OT>ea, conchicted a campaign of
education for the members of the Young Comnnmist League by using
the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. O'Dea. Somewhat.
Mr. Mattheavs. How many copies of tlie History of the Com-
munist Party of the Soviet Union has the Young Communist League
distributed in your jurisdiction?
Mr. O'Dea. 1 don't know, offhand.
Mr. Matthews. Would it be several hundred?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Matthews. But you have urged members of the Young Com-
munist League to purchase and stucly individually and in groups the
History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. O'Dea. I have. I consider that a very good sociological dis-
course.
]\Ir. Matthews. You also consider it a guide, do you not, to the
correct tactics for bringing about the Communist revolution and the
proletarian dictatorship in other parts of the world?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't believe that I have to answer that question.
The Chairman. Wliat was the question?
Mr. Matthews. If he does not consider the History of the Com-
munist Party of the Soviet Union a guide to correct tactics, in bring-
ing about the Communist revolution and the proletarian dictatorship
in other parts of the world.
The language which I use in the question has been emplo^^ed by the
Communist literature and speakers in many parts of the United
States, and by Earl Browder liimself when he appeared on the wit-
ness stand here, and I did not know that tlie witness would have any
objection to answering the question.
Mr. CoHN. The witness does have objection to the question. It
calls for an opinion.
Mr. Lynch. Let the witness make an objection. You can't make
his objection for him.
Mr. CoHN. I am objecting on behalf of the witness, whom I repre-
sent, to the question, as calling for his personal opinion.
Mr. Lynch. He hasn't any right to object for the witness. Let the
witness object for himself.
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer that?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't see why I have to. It is a matter of opinion.
If Mr. Browder has spoken "to you on it, then you know what Mr.
rX-A.MKKK'AX PHOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7573
Browder lliinks of it. He is the most authoritative spokesman for
tlie Cdiiiiminist Party.
Mr. Di::\irsEY. Do vou aaree with Mr. Browder?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't know what he said, and I don't accept Mr.
Mattliows* interpretation. I want to see Mr. Browder's words.
Mr. De.aipsey. Yon have ah-eady stated for the record.
]Mr. O'Dea. I took that from Mr. Matthews' statement. I presume
that that is right,
Mr. Deimpsey. You have stated it, whoever you have taken it from.
Mr. O'Dea. I said, if he stated it.
Mr. Dempsey. If he had stated it, do you agree with it?
Mr. O'Dea. I want to see what he stated. That is a reasonable
request.
^Ir. Dempsey. Would you agree with anything or everything that
he agrees with ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is a ridiculous question.
Mr. Dempsey. Sometimes it is necessary to ask ridiculous people
ridiculous questions.
]Mr. O'Dea. Sometimes ridiculous people ask ridiculous questions.
Mr. CoHX. I object to this type of questions.
The- Chairmax. The witness has no' right to answer in any such
maanner, saj'ing that it is a ridiculous question, and the witness can
say whether he knows or whether he declines to answer, but certainly
you. as counsel, know that an answer such as that is not proper.
Mr. CoHX. This kind of answer is brought about by these kinds of
questions.
Mr. Lyxch. I submit if counsel does not want to conduct himself
properly and attempts to answer for the witness, he not be permitted
to represent this witness.
Mr. CoHX. I object to any such kind of characterization.
The Chairmax. Let us proceed.
Mr. Lyxch. I submit he should answer ]Mr. Dempsey's question,
and should answer Dr. Matthews' question, and I will ask the Chair
to direct him to answer both of them, and have the reporter read Mr.
Dempsey's last question, and have him read Dr. INIatthews' last ques-
tion, and direct him to answer both of them.
Mr. Matthews. I should like to restate my question, Mr. Chair-
man.
Is the purpose in your using the "History of the Communist Party
of the Soviet Union" to teach the members of the Young Communist
League correct tactics for the Communist revolution ?
Mr. O'Dea. The purpose is to learn the sociological laws of the
historical development.
Mr. Matthews. That means the same thing, does it not?
Mr. O'Dea, Xot exactly.
The Chairmax'. Then, the purpose is not what Dr. Matthews asked
you?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't tliink so: no.
The Chairmax. All right.
While you are waiting there I want to ask him a few questions.
Do you belong to any other organization besides the Young Com-
munist League and the Communist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. No; I am personally a member of no other organization.
The Chairman, You do not belong to any student organization?
7574 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. O'Dea. No.
The Chairman. Those are the only two organizations that you be-
long to ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
The Chairman. You stated that you knew the names of 25 of the
members of the Young Communist League in Harvard. You stated
that?
Mr. O'Dea, Approximately, I think that I do.
The Chairman. Will you state to the committee the names of those
that you do know ?
Mr. O'Dea. I refuse to state those names.
The Chairman. The Chair directs you to do so and you decline to
do so, is that correct ?
Mr. O'Dea. I decline for the reason that I stated.
The Chairman. In the event of war between the United States
and Russia, would you support the United States ?
Mr. CoHN. I object to this question on the ground that it is hypo-
thetical.
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer it?
Mr. O'Dea. I decline to answer it. I don't think it is at all a
realistic question.
The Chairman. You decline to say whether or not you will support
this country in the event we were to enter war with Russia on the
opposite side ; is that correct?
Mr. O'Dea. I decline to answer the question. It is a matter of
opinion, and I don't see how I can have an opinion on h3^pothetical
questions.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Dea, is it true that according to section 35
of the Rules of the Communist International, that tlie Young Com-
munist League of the LTnited States is a section of the Comintern?
Mr. O'Dea. I did not know that.
Mr. Matthews. What do you understand to be the relationship
between the Young Communist League of the United States and the
Comintern ?
Mr. O'Dea. All I understand is that the Young Communist League
has fraternal affiliations with the Young Communist International,
which is the fraternal body of Young Communist Leagues in many
countries.
Mr. Matthews. What is the relationship to the Communist In-
ternational ?
Mr. O'Dea. AVell, I don't know of any. It has not affected me.
Mr. Matthews. Does the Young Communist League of the United
States ever send a delegate to the sessions of the Communist Inter-
national ?
Mr. O'Dea. I think that they have sent delegates to the sessions of
the Young Communist International.
Mr. Matthews. I am speaking now of the Communist Interna-
tional.
Mr. O'Dea. I really don't know.
Mr. Matthews. You have been a member of the Young Commu-
nist League 7 years?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Approximately?
UX-AMERICAX PKOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7575
.All-. 0"I)i;a. Yes.
Mr. Ma'ithews. And you do not know whether or not the Youn<^
Comnuniist Leaii:ue has representation in the nfatherings of the Com-
munist International i
Mr. O'Dea. I really don't know. 1 am interested more
The CHAiR:\tAN. You answered the question.
Mr. ]\f\TTiiEws. Do you know Gil Green?
Mr. ODka. I have met him.
Mr. Matthews. Then you knoM- him, do you not?
Mr. O'Dea. AVell. I met him once or twice.
Mr. Matthews. Was Gil Green a delegate to the Seventli World
Conoress of the Connnunist International?
^Ir. O'Dea. He may have been. I would not be surprised. I
think he w^as a delegate to the Sixth World Congress of the Young
Connnunist International.
Mr. ]\I.\TTHEWs. AVasn't he also a delegate to the Seventh World
Congress ?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't remember these things very well. I am not
interested in details of that kind, particularly. I am interested in
lii^jtorical material.
The Chapman. You have answered.
Mr. Matthews. Are the decisions and resolutions of the Commu-
nist International in any way binding upon the Young Communist
League ^
Mr. O'Dea. No.
JSIr. Matthew^s. Are they considered as directives for. the Young
Communist LeaoTie of the United States?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. ]\lATTPn:ws. Is there any relationship between the Young Com-
muiiist League of the United States and the decisions and resolutions
of the Communist International?
Mr. O'De^v. We study them as material, obtaining historical and
sociological and political data.
]Mr. Matthews. Have j^ou ever read the resolutions of the Seventh
World Congress of the Communist International held in INIoscow in
August of 1935?
Mr. O'Dea. I have, but don't expect me to be able to repeat them.
The Chairman. He did not ask you that. He asked you whether
you have ever studied them.
Mr. Matthews. You have read those resolutions?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
IMr. Matthews. The resolution on war, passed unanimously by the
Seventh AVorld CongTess of the Communist International declares,
"The defense of the Soviet Union is considered paramount."
Do you recall that particular part of the resolutions of the Seventh
World Congress?
:Mr. O'Dea. I don't recall it.
Mr. Matthews. Do you subscribe to that view ?
Mr. CoHN. I respectfully object upon the ground that this is calling
for the personal opinion of the witness.
Mr. ^Iatthews. I am asking for his personal allegiance to the Soviet
Union as outlined.
The CHAHiMAN. He can certainly answer "Yes" or "No."
7576 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, O'Dea. I would want to see that full statement and context. It
is a well-known fact that one cannot answer a question about a state-
ment when the statement is out of the context and no person with
intellectual integrity will attempt to answer a question of that kind.
It is a matter of opinion, and I do not think that I have to answer.
Mr. Casey. Do you consider the preservation of the soviet form of
government of paramount importance to the Connnunists generally?
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, I submit, too, that that is an objection-
able question, on the same ground.
The Chairman. You decline to answer the question ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes. I don't think that that is relevant.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Toni Taylor?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Who is Toni Taylor ?
Mr. O'Dea. She is the associate editor of McCall's, a women's weekly,
I think it is.
Mr. Matthews. Is that McCall's Magazine ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. That is a monthly, is it not ?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. And Toni Taylor is associate editor ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes. I am pretty sure of that.
Mr. Matthews. ^Vliat have been your connections with Toni Taylor
during the past year, as secretary of the Young Communist League?
Mr. O'Dea. Well. I took part in a discussion that was organized by
the McCall's Magazine, in which Toni Taylor was the representative
at the discussion, and it was more or less of an academic discussion,
"Democracy and Religion," and was held at the College Club in Boston,
and had all viewpoints represented.
I was invited to represent the viewpoint of the Young Connnunist
League, not officially — no one officially there represented organizations,
and no names were used in the write-up which a])peared in one of the
issues of McCall's written by Archibald MacLeish who attended the
conference and no write-ups and no names appeared there, and it was
not important who the people were but it was a question of the mate-
rial, the historical material that was brought forward there.
I took part in that conference. I was called by Toni Taylor to
come to talk to her and selected as one of the ])eo])le to take pai-t.
Secondly, a radio broadcast sponsored by McCall's in a part of a
Nation-wide group of radio broadcasts, I think from eight leading
cities. One was held in Boston, that was on the question of war, and
I was also selected by Toni Taylor to take part in that. That was
directed by Mr. Otis Wise, I think the editor of McCall's. That was
my relationship.
Mr. Matthews. Did you have correspondence with Toni Taylor
thanking you for your partici})ation in this conference in Boston?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not recall, but I believe so.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know Miss Taylor before she became
associate editor of McCall's Magazine?
Mr. O'Dea. I never knew Miss Taylor until one day she called me
on the telephone.
Mr. Matthews. What is the relationship between the Young Com-
munist League in Massachusetts and the Massachusetts Youth Coun-
cil?
rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7577
Mr. O'Dea. The Massachusetts Youth Council is made up of, or
is, an organization nuide up of fraternal affiliates of a large numl>er
of youth organizations, and we are affiliated to it. I am a member
of the cabinet.
Mr. ^Matthews. Who is the chairman of the Massachusetts Youth
Council ?
Mr. O'Dea. Nathanial Mills.
Mr. MAi"riif:Avs. You are a member of the cabinet?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Is it the purpose of the Young Communist League
in Massachusetts to Avork for the adoption of its viewpoint in youth
organizations, tlirough the medium of the Massachusetts Youth
Council ?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, I mean, I don't understand that question, because
most youth organizations have cooperated witli the Massachusetts
Youtli Council?
Mr. Matthews. Is the Massachusetts Youth Council affiliated with
the American Youth Congress?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Matthews. That concludes the questions. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lynch. May I ask a few questions, Mr. O'Dea ? Did you ever
go out to Harvard and speak to the Harvard group of the Young
Comnumist League ?
Mr. O'Dea. I never spoke at Harvard to them.
]Mi-. Ltxch. Where did j^ou speak to them ?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, they attended, some of them at least, general
meetings that I spoke to.
Mr. Lynch. Where were those meetings being held?
]Mr. O'Dea. In A'arious halls that we would hire.
Mr. Lynch. Where, for instance ? Give me one ?
Mr. O'Dea. We had meetings where I spoke in the Hotel Bradford
and Snnphony Hall.
Mr. Lynch. And the Harvard group would be there?
Mr. O'Dea. I imagine so.
Mr. Lynch. And you would speak then on the aims of the Young
Communist League or the Communist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. I spoke on some current topic of the day. presenting
what I consider the viewpoint of the Young Communist League.
Mr. Lynch. Have any of those members of that Harvard group
spoken at any of these meetings?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't think so. I am pretty sure that they have not.
jVIr. Lynch. Who else besides you compose the office headquarters
of the Young Comnumist League?
Mr. O'Dea. Will you repeat that question?
Mr. Lynch. Who else is employed at the Young Communist League
headquarters in Massachusetts besides yourself?
^Iv. O'Dfa. No one.
^Ir. Lynch. You are the entire works?
Mr. Cohn. I object to the form of the question.
Mr. Lynch. Are you secretary and director and everything else?
Do you take care of the correspondence? Do you have a secretary
or financial assistant?
Mr. O'Dea. One full-time Avorker is enough to handle those things
in an organization of our size. I take care of it.
7578 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Is that the situation at your place?
Mr. O'Dea. I take care of them.
Mr. Lynch. You take care of everything alone?
Mr. O'Dea. I wouldn't say everything. I take care of the things
that you mentioned, correspondence.
Mr. Lynch. Do you liave any paid assistants?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Lynch. Are you paid?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. How much?
Mr. O'Dea. $12.50 a week.
Mr. Lynch. That is paid out of the proceeds that you receive? It
is paid out of the proceeds that you receive in dues; is that correct?
Mr. O'Dea. Dues, and sometimes donations.
Mr. Lynch. You keep records of the donations that you receive?
Mr. O'Dea. We give receipts to the people who issue them. I have
not kept any records of the donations.
Mr. Lynch. You do not keep a list of the persons that donate to
the cause in your office?
^ir. O'Dea. No ; it is not a question of regular donations.
Mr. Lynch. Whether it is regular or irregular, do you keep a rec-
ord of those persons who donate?
Mr. O'Dea. No; I do not.
Mr. Lynch. Now, with regard to the persons who are members,
they pay 10 cents or 25 cents for their dues, and it is necessary, of
course, to know the number of members in the organization, is it not?
jNIr. O'Dea. Well, you see, we have the same situation as all dues-
paying organizations. One person, if you were a member, you might
pay 5 months' dues this month, and then you would not pay for 5
months; and, on the other hand, you might be 5 months behind, so
that that is not the best barometer.
Mr. Lynch. So the way to determine whether the person who has
paid 5 months in advance or 5 months in arrears, is to have a record
of it?
j\fr. O'Dea. No; he has stamps on his card.
Mr. Lynch. And you have to have a record of the persons who
liave books, don't you, or cards?
Mr. O'Dea. We don't have a record of that.
Mr. Lynch. How do you know who is a member ? When a person
comes in and pa^^s, and a card has been issued to him ?
JNIr. O'Dea. Well, I don't issue the cards.
Mr. Lynch. Who issues them?
Mr. O'Dea. The branch president.
Mr. Lynch. Who is the brancli president?
Mr. O'Dea. AVhat do you mean?
Mr. Lynch. Who is the branch president?
Mr. O'Dea. Welh "whoever" depends on a particular branch, who
is president of tliat branch.
]\Ir. Lynch. Wliat branches do you have there?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, I named the places.
Mr. Lynch. Can you give us the names of any of the branch
presidents ?
Mr. O'Dea. I refuse to give those names for the reason I stated
when I refused to give other names.
C.N-A.MKliK AX PROPAGxVNDA ACTIVITIES 7579
The CiiAiiJMAN. Do vou knoAV wluit their names iii'c?
Mr. O'Dea. Most ()f"tluMn.
The Chaikman. And you (U'cline to <;ive the committee any of the
names of any of the branch presidents that you know about?
Mr. ()'T)ea. For the reasons 1 stated before.
The CiiAiiniAN. The Chair dii-ecls the witness to answer the ques-
tion and the witness declines to do so, is that correct?
Mr. O'Dea. For the reasons stated before.
Mr. Casky. How many branch leagues have the Youno- Conmiunists
in Massacluisetts^
Mr. O'Dea. Probably 25.
Mr. Casey. You have one in Boston, and several in Greater Boston?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes ; we have several in Boston and several in Greater
Boston.
Mr. Casey. And you have one in Worcester?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't recall any right now. It is published on a
release but I don't recall right now.
Mr. Casey. Do vou have one in Springfield?
Mv. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Casey. Do you have any in the smaller cities and towns in
central and western ^lassachusetts, any branches?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Casey. You think that you have about how many branches?
Mr. O'Dea. I think about 25.
Mr. Lynch. Do you hold regular meetings of the league?
Mr. O'Dea. Branches all hold regular meetings.
Ml'. Lyxch. How often are they held?
Mr. O'Dea. It varies with the brancli. One a week, or 2 weeks, or
3 weeks.
jNlr. LY>r<:ii. In Boston the one that you are a member of, or have
a direct connection w^ith, how often do they hold their meetings?
Mr. O'Dea. About once every 2 weeks, approximately.
Mr. Lynch. Flow often do you attend the meetings of the Com-
munist Part}' in Boston?
Mv. O'Dea. Once every week or 2 weeks.
Mr. Lynch. Who is the secretary or director of the Communist
Party in Massachusetts and Boston?
Mr. O'Dea. The executive secretary is Mr. Frankfeld.
Mr. Lynch. What is his address?
Mr. CoHN. He is here.
Mr. Lynch. After you were subpenaed last Friday — did you get
in touch with the New York headquarters, after you were subpenaed
last Fridav to appear before this committee?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Lynch. Who arranged for your counsel for you ?
Mr. CoHN. I object to that. It is a personal question.
Mr. Lynch. The committee has got a right to show that it was
furnished by someone other than himself.
Mr. CoHN. I object to that question, upon the ground that any
relations between client and attorney are privileged.
Mr. Casey. That is strictly the client's privilege, however, Mr.
Cohn, not vours.
Mr. O'Dea. I object to it. I think that that does not come wuthin
the sphere of operations of this committee.
7580 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. I am not asking him to disclose anything except to
show that the attorney is the same attorney that has appeared for
other persons who admittedly are members of the Communist Party,
and that the counsel was furnished by the Communist Party for
him.
Mr. CoHN. It does not happen to be the fact.
Mr. Starnes. I think the question is pertinent, and I think the
witness ought to answer it.
The Chairman. Well, of course, the committee wants to accord full
liberty and freedom for people wlio have counsel for them and not
infringe upon the right of a person to have the benefit of counsel
before the committee. The Chair is not absolutely clear about
whether or not it would be proper to go into the question of the
relationship between client and attorney.
Mr. Lynch. I do not intend to do that. I will put the question in
this way.
Was counsel secured for you by the Communist Party or the Young
Communist League ?
Mr. O'Dea. Counsel was secured for me by a very good personal
friend of mine.
Mr. Lynch. That is not answering the question.
The Chairman. If it was secured by the Young Communist League
or the Communist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. Mr. Frankfeld secured counsel for me.
Mr. Lynch. What is his position, so that we will have it in the
record ?
Mr. Frankfeld, you say?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes; I answered his position before.
The Chairman. He said he was executive secretary of the Com-
munist Party of Massachusetts.
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Where have you been employed, except your work in
the Communist I^eague?
Mr. O'Dea. I have had odd jobs.
Mr. Lynch. Such as wdiat?
Mr. O'Dea. I worked 4 months in an automobile factory, in the
Ford factory, and I worked in small printing places a very short
time, and worked in furniture factories, odd jobs, very difficult for a
young man.
Mr. Lynch. For how long a period of time, altogether, in the auto-
mobile and furniture factorv, would vou say that vou were employed?
Mr. O'Dea. Maybe half a year.
Mr. Lynch. Altogether?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. That is all.
Mr. Matthews. I liave one more question. In what other schools
or universities in your jurisdiction are there branches of the Young-
Communist League? You mentioned Harvard.
Mr. O'Dea. Dartmouth and Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mr. Matthews. What others ?
Mr. O'Dea. Massachusetts State, and we have a few members in
Boston University.
Mr. Casey. Are there any members in Holy Cross or Boston College?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't know right offhand. I don't think so.
rX-AMKRICAX rUOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7581
Mr. TiidMAS. Aiv there any members in Amherst or Williams?
Mr. O'Dea. Amherst, yes.
Mr. Thomas. You haven't any in Williams?
Mr. ODea. Xo.
Mr. Matthews. Or in Radcliffe?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Of the 350 members of the Young Communist
League, how many of them are college students?
Mr. O'Dea. This is an approximation. Maybe 75 to 115, maybe
in there.
Mv. ^Iatthews. In how many colleges of New England are they
distributed, approximately?
Mr. O'Dea. Seven or eight, I would say.
Mv. Matthews. Mv. O'Dea, will you please identify this communica-
tion for us ? This is marked with the numeral "3" at the top, addressed
to "Dear Pat,"' and signed by the letter "P." Did you receive that
communication?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Who is "P*'?
Mr. O'Dea. A member of the Worcester branch.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Does this letter refer to the delegation to the Ameri-
can Youth Congress in Washington?
Mr. O'Dea. No; it refers to the delegation, to the fraternal dele-
gate we send to the convention of the Communist Party.
Mv. Matthews. Which convention of the Communist Party ?
Mr. O'Dea. This one that we just held this week-end in Boston.
Mr. Matthews. The Young Communist League did sent a fraternal
delegate to the Communist Party Convention of the State of Massa-
chusetts in Boston?
Mr. O'Dea. We call them fraternal delegates. They were con-
sidered visitors by the convention.
(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 7.")
Mr. Mattheavs. The notation in this letter is "Her book niunber is
H-224.''
Is "P" the secretary of the Worcester Young Communist League or
the president of the Worcester Yotmg Commimist League?
Mr. O'Dea. President, I think.
Mr. Matthews. The letter "P" is given as the author of this letter,
and ho describes "P" as the president of the Worcester Branch of the
Young Comnuini.st League. I have not asked him for further details
about ''P's'* name.
Mr. O'Dea. I decline to give that name.
The Chaikmax. The Chair directs the witness to answer the ques-
tion, and the witness declines to do so.
Mv. O'Dea. For the same reason as stated before.
Mr. Matthews. Wliy would you be notified of the book number of
tlie fraternal delegate of the Young Communist League to the conven-
tion of the Communist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't know. It was the onlj' case where any letter
like that came in .
Mr. ]Matthews. Does not the writer of thi.s letter — you are to assume
that you will be able to identify the delegate by knowing the book
number of the delegate?
^Ir. O'Dea. I imagine that is what he assumes; I don't knoAV.
7582 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. The president of one of your own brandies assumes
that you do have some record in your headquarters as to the book
numbers and names; is that correct?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't think so.
The Chairman. Then why would he write a letter and merely refer
to the book number, if he did not think that you had the number of
the book?
Mr. O'Dea. Because he was invited to ,send one visitor, and he was
assurino- nie that several were not coming- from Worcester.
Mr. Matthews. Why would he want to mention
Mr. O'Dea. So I would know that that was the right visitor and
some other one was not going in instead, I suppose. I did not write
the letter. I am just giving you my interpretation of it at the moment.
Mr. Casey. Is St. Joseph's School a parochial school?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. That i,s a grade school '?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. You went 4 years to high school at Amesbury?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. Was it while you were at high school that you became
interested in the ideals of communism?
Mr. O'Dea. In my junior year I became very interested in eco-
nomics and sociology and began to read Socialist and Communist
literature; that is right.
Mr. Casey. Were you ever contacted or did you ever contact while
} ou were in Amesbury High School, any Communist with respect to
your readings on communism?
Mr. O'Dea. No; I became a member of the Sociali.st Party.
Mr. Casey. While you were -a student at Amesbury High School?
Mr. O'Dea. Tliat is right. I took part in a debate, in my senior
year in high school before the whole school auditorium on that ques-
tion, and it was a debate that was sanctioned by the school authorities.
j\Ir. Casey. After you got out of high school, you said that you
were out of work a year?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And then you went to Wentworth?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. That is a technical school?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. Does that school charge any tuition?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And the course vou took there was a 2-year course?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. In printing?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And you completed that course?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And you got a degree as a printer?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, you don't get a degree.
Mr. Casey. But you completed your work there?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever join nny unions after you became a
[)rinter, after vou graduated from Wentworth?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7583
Mr. Casey. After you became a ]5rinter, you acquired the trade
of priuter, did you ever make any attem})t to obtain positions as a
printer^
Mr. O'Dea. I combed most print shops in Boston, and I think
Boston has more than any city of its size in the country, and I suc-
ceeded in o-ettino^ in a couple of small places for a short time, and that
is all. It is very difficult. One does not oet sufficient skill in 2 years
to be ]n-ei)ared for a very hii>li-paid job.
Mr. Casey. You have to serve as a sort of apprentice in addition
to \vhat you learn at school?
Mr. O'Dea. The school is not recoonized as an apprenticeship.
Mr. Casey\ You live at 295 Huntington Avenue?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Casey'. Is that near Wentworth?
Mr. O'Dea. It is not far.
Mr. Casey. Did you take up your residence there when you were
goin^j to Went worths
]Mr. O'Dea. I did not live there when I was going. I lived at
various streets around that section.
Mr. Casey. Is that a hotel or rooming house ?
Mr. O'Dea. It is an apartment house.
Mr. Casey. You live there alone, do you?
Mr. O'Dea. 1 live with my wife.
Mr. Casey. Now, the phrase "The Yanks Are Not Coming" is a
part of a movement for peace, for keeping America out of foreign
entanglements?
Mr. O'Dea. It is part of a general movement, and I think that
we have as nuich right to use the slogan as anybody else. It is ])ublic
property.
The Chairman. I understood that you were the one that coined tlie
phrase?
Mr. O'Dea. Me ? Oh, no.
Mr. Casey. Do you believe that the popular opinion of America is
for keeping out of war?
Mr. O'Dea. I do. I think that that has been tested in some polls ;
that also would prove that.
Mr. Casey. Do you believe that the Communist Party has adopted
slogans like "The Yanks Are Not Coming'' and peace movements in
general, in order to capitalize upon that popular opinion?
"Sir. O'Dea. No ; I think that you will see that the Conununist Party,
if you read its material over a whole period of its existence, has always
been a peace party, always been interested in peace. I think that you
will find that very true.
The Chaikmax. You opposed the Budget, as I believe, in these pam-
phlets. President Roosevelt's Budget for war preparation, didn't you ?
Mr. O'Dea. We oppose the cut in social measures.
The Chairmax. I am talking about the Budget,
Mr. O'Dea. AVe op]K)se the huge expenditure for armaments which
many people feel are more than adequate for defense at the expense
of the cutting of the social measures which affect the welfare and the
lives of the people.
The Chairmax. Do you oppose the large budget that the Soviet
Union has recently put forward to increase her war preparations?
949;U — 10— vol. 12 25
7584 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. O'Dea. I am a citizen of the United States, born in the United
States, and do not interfere in the Soviet.
Tlie Chairman. Yon have no opinion in reference to the budget?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't think it is relevant here.
The Chairman. Do you have any opinion about it, whether you
approve or disapprove of it?
Mr. O'Dea. I have not seen the budget, Mr. Chairman, I don't
know, and I don't give opinions on one-sentence statements. I believe
in reading and studying something before I give an opinion on it, and
I think that is the only way one can give an opinion on it.
The Chairman. You are opposing the Budget of the United States
for preparation and naturally I wanted to find out if you opposed the
$11,000,000,000 budget of the Soviet Union for additional wartime
preparations.
Mr. Casey. As a citizen of the United States, do you consider your
primary, your exclusive allegiance to the United States ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes ; of course.
Mr. Casey. You do not consider you owe any allegiance to the Soviet
Government ?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Casey. Do you subscribe to the phrase read by Mr. INIatthews,
in one of the pamphlets, describing Mannerheim as an imperialistic
butcher ?
Mr. O'Dea. I think that that is a good phrase. I think that that
is a very good phrase.
Mr. Casey. You do not think that that would apply to Mr. Stalin?
Mr. O'Dea. It is a question of opinion. I am giving you my per-
sonal opinion. I certainly do not.
Mr. Casey. Now
Mr. O'Dea. I think it applies to Mr. Chamberlain, though.
Mr. Casey. I understand that you have done a great deal of read-
ing, and given a great deal of independent thought to socialism and
communism; is that right?
Mr. O'Dea. That is right.
Mr. Casey. Now, did you approve of the Soviet-German Pact ?
Mr. O'Dea. I did.
Mr. Casey. Did you approve of the Eussian invasion of Poland?
Mr. O'Dea. Mr. Chairman, I think that all of these questions are
matters of opinion, and I don't think that they are relevant to the
investigation of the committee, and I don't see anj' reason for going"
on answering them.
Mr. Casey. Let me frame it another way. Do you consider Russia
going into Poland an imperialistic war?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Casey. Against a weaker nation?
Mr. O'Dea. No ; I do not.
Mr. Casey. Do you approve of Russia's invasion of Finland?
Mr. O'Dea. Mr. Chairman, I repeat that I have answered to the
best of my knowledge.
Mr. Casey. If you do not want to answer it. all right.
Mr. O'Dea. These are matters of opinion, and I do not think that
my opinion is so important that it merits the attention of the
Congress of the United States.
rX-AMERICAX PKOI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7585
Mr. Casey. You liuve expressed all sorts of opinions in this
pamphlet here, with respect to the Chamberlain and Daladier gov-
ernment, and so forth, ami why have you a hesitancy about express-
ing an opinion with respect to tlie Russian Government's policies?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, I think that the people to whom I was express-
ing tliem i)erhai)S were interested in my opinions but I don't think
that my opinions should J)e of great interest to the Congress of the
United States, and it would waste too much of the taxpayers' money.
Mr. Casey. You let us consider that, will you, Mr. Witness'^
Mr. O'Dea. I think that as a citizen I shoidd also consider it.
Mr, Casev. Do you consider that Finland was an imperialistic
government during the recent war ^
Mr. O'Dea. It is a matter of opinion and I think the question is;
irrelevant.
Mr. Casey. Do you have an opinion with respect to it?
Mr. O'Dea. I no doubt have.
Mr. Casey. What is your opinion?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't think it is relevant here.
Mr. Casey. You do not wish to vouchsafe your opinion ?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
The Chairman. Now, you stated in answer to the question, that you
oAve allegiance to the United States, and then why, when you make
that unqualified statement, do you hesitate to say whether or not you
would support the United States if it went to war with Russia, or
with Russia on the opposite side?
Mr. O'Dea. I think that that question is irrelevant and I refuse
to answer any questions where I clo not have a full context showing
me what the question is, you can't answer intelligently one-sentence
questions of that kind, that goes without saying. Anybody knows
that who knows anything about answering questions.
Mr. Lynch. You ought to direct him to answer that question.
Mr. O'Dea. It is a matter of opinion, and I don't have to answer it,
Mr. Starnes. How long did you say that you worked in the auto-
motive business ? How long was it that you stated that you worked
in the automotive business?
Mr. O'Dea. I don't remember. I wasn't in the business. I was
in tlie factory.
Mr. Starnes. How long did you work in the factory?
Mr. O'Dea. About 3 or 4 months.
INIr. Starnes. What section of the country were you working in?
Mr. O'Dea. In Somerville, Mass.
Mr. Starnes. That was the onlj^ experience that you had of that
type and character?
Mr. O'Dea. Well. I worked in a furniture factory for a brief time,
and I don't remember exactly; you know these jobs come and go;
you know how that is.
Mr. Starnes. Have you ever worked in any factories outside the
State of ^Massachusetts?
]\rr. O'Dea. No; I never worked outside of the State of Massachu-
setts.
Mr. Starnes. You have lived there and were born and reared
there?
Mr. O'Dea. I was. I have lived there all of mv life.
7586 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Starnes. You expressed an opinion a moment ago that the
Communists had always been a peace party and had always advo-
cated peace,
Mr. O'Dea. That is a matter of fact; that is not opinion.
Mr. Starnes. That is a matter of fact?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
Mr. Starnes. It was a matter of fact, then, that Communist inter-
vention in the war in Spain — was that a peace measure?
Mr. O'Dea. I did not know that there was any Communist inter-
vention in the war in Spain.
Mr. Starnes. Well, the Communist interest in Spain; was that in
the interest of peace?
Mr. O'Dea. Communist interest in Spain certainly was in the in-
terest of peace and democracy, as was the interest of all democratic-
minded citizens.
Mr. Starnes. When the Communists of the United States, as well
as the Communists in other sections of the world, recruited volun-
teers for service in Spain, was that in the interest of peace?
Mr. O'Dea. I did not know that they recruited volunteers for
•service in Spain.
Mr. Starnes. You did not know that Mr, Browder, the head of
the party, stated that they had encouraged volunteers for service in
Spain ?
Mr. O'Dea. I do not recall any such thing. I know American
boys went to Spain, and I know that they made a glorious contribu-
tion there to democracy throughout the world.
Mr. Starnes. You did not know that the Communist Party or its
affiliates in this country had helped to finance the travel of these
boys, American boys, to Spain?
Mr, O'Dea. I did not — first of all, I did not know the Communist
Party had any affiliate, and in the second place I did not know that
it had financed it, if it had.
Mr. Starnes. You did not know that it had any so-called com-
munication belts or transmission belts in this country?
Mr. O'Dea. The only belts I know are the belts I worked on in the
Ford factory,
Mr. Starnes. You do not know anything about the so-called "trans-
mission belt" that Mr. Browder testified before this committee about ;
and I am using his terminology and not the committee's terminology.
]\Ii'. O'Dea. I will say again the only belts I know about are the
•ones I worked on in the Ford factory,
I suppose that you would call them transmission belts.
INIr. Starnes. All right. The Communist Party, then, in your
judgment, then, was acting in the interest of peace when it tried
to get Chamberlain to go into Czechoslovakia for the defense of
Czechoslovakia ?
Mr. O'Dea. What Communist Party are you talking about?
Mr. Starnes. I am talking about the Communist International, and
the Soviet Union. It is a matter of history and a matter of record
that they urged Chamberlain.
Mr. O'Dea. The Soviet Union was willing to defend Czechoslo
vakia, and France broke her pledge and Chamberlain refused to de-
fend Czechoslovakia, which is one of the reasons that proves tha
today he is not defending democracy.
UN-AM EUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7587
Mr. Starnes. Ts it not a fact that the Soviet Union urged Cham-
berhiin to go in there and said that they were ready to keep their
c'onunitnients it" lie wonld ? Now, is that not true?
Mr. O'De-v. Tliat is riaht, and that was in the interest of peace^
and if that had been done there would be no war today. We would
not have to be worried about ''The Yanks Are Not Coming."
Mr. Starnes. So, whenever the Soviet Union urges other nations
to go to war
Mr. O'Dea. The Soviet Union was willing to defend Czechoslo-
Aakia herself. It was France that broke that pledge, and this is a
matter of historical knowledge and I don't see why we have to dis-
cuss history here. This is not a history class.
]Mr. Starxes. What I want to get from you, is the statement
Mr. O'Dea. That was in the interest of peace, if that is what you
want to get. That is not only my opinion, it is the opinion of many
leading spokesmen throughout the world.
Mr. Starnes. When the Soviet Union then urges any other nation
to go to war, or to use armed measures, or when itself it resorts to
arms, or force of arms, it does so in the interest of peace, is that
correct :*
Mr. O'Dea. That question is a hypothetical question. The Soviet
Union did not urge other countries to go to war. It urged the pro-
tection of Czechoslovakia, which would have prevented the outbreak
of war. That also has been attested to by many leading people
everywhere.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Starnes. Were the Soviet Union's efforts in the Far East in
its clashes with Japan in which lives were lost, was that in the in-
terest of peace?
^Ir. O'Dea. The Soviet Union defended its own borders and pre-
vented the starting of war against itself by Japan and certainly it
was in the interests of peace and the help of the Soviet Union to
China is also in the interest of peace, and I think you will find also
a majority of the American people will agree with that.
Mr. Starnes. You believe that the majority of the American peo-
ple approve of the Soviet Union's peaceful efforts in supporting
China, in the present war?
Mr. O'Dea. AVell, most people I have met have. I don't see any
need, Mr. Chairman, of continuing this. I repeat that I don't think
my opinions warrant the attention of the Congress of the United
States.
]Mr. Casey. Let us bring it up to date.
^Ir. O'Dea. I don't see any reason for continuing. My opinions
are not so important.
Mr. Starnes. You have had your say. Do you consider the present
war budget for the Navy and the Army in this country in the inter-
est of peace, or war?
Mr. O'Dea. I am not going to answer those questions. They are
matters of opinion, and they are irrelevant, and I am not going to
answer them.
i\Ir. Starnes. On what ground, then, do you base your objections
to the present budgets for the War Department and" Navy Depart-
ment ?
Mr. O'Dea. Those are also matters of opinion.
7588 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Staknes. It is not a matter of opinion.
Mr. O'Dea. It is an opinion, if I base my opinions on
Mr. Starnes. Can yon not make statements without having to ex-
press an opinion? I am not asking for your opinion, because I do
not give a hang about your opinion about it,
Mr. O'Dea. I wish that you would stop asking for it, then.
Mr. Starnes. I want to know what are the reasons that you assign,
as a citizen of this country, for opposing the recommendations of
the President of the United States for the War and Navy budgets
this 3'ear?'
Mr. O'Dea. As a citizen of this country I have the right to be for
or against any piece of legislation that comes up before the Congress
of the United States, and I do not have to answer to this committee,
or any other committee, for it, and that is my answer to you, Mr.
Representative.
The Chairman, Any other questions, gentlemen?
Mr. Lynch. Have you ever paid any real-estate taxes in the State
of Massachusetts ?
Mr. O'Dea. My father has for a long time, I don't own any prop-
erty,
Mr. Lynch, Have you ever paid any Federal income tax?
Mr. O'Dea. No.
Mr. Lynch. Have you ever paid any State taxes in the State of
Massachusetts ?
Mr. O'Dea. I never made enough money. My father has paid all
of those for years,
Mr, Lynch, Is your father a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. O'Dea. He is not.
Tlie Chairman. Do you have an executive committee of the Young
Communist League for Massachusetts?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes,
The Chairman, Do they control your actions ?
Mr. O'Dea. No; what do you mean by "control my actions?"
The Chairman. I mean, are they the official board to whom you
report, and who have control over the policies of the organization?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes,
The Chairman, You make your reports to them ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
The Chairman. You have regular meetings of the executive board ?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
The Chairman, How many members of the board do vou have?
Mr, O'Dea, About 10,
The Chairman. Ten members of the board?
Mr, O'Dea, Yes,
The Chairman. Do you know who they are?
Mr. O'Dea. Yes.
The Chairman. Will you state to the committee who the members
of the board are?
Mr. O'Dea. I refuse for the reasons stated before.
The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer that question and
you decline to do so ; is that correct ?
Mr. O'Dea. The giving of these people's names will result in their
economic persecution and I am not going to be a party to that.
The Chairman, Do you decline?
UN-AMKRI('A\ PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7589
Mr. O'Dea. I decline to answer tluit on my constitutional rights.
The Chairmax. Any other questions of the witness?
Mr. Casey. Do you consider Harvard College would deprive a boy
of scholarship because during his youthful period of studentship at
the college lie was a Conununist ?
Mr. O'Dea. Well, I would say that there might be a possibility of it.
I am not stating any opinion on that either without considering it more
carefully.
The Chairman. You have answered the question.
Are there any other questions, gentlemen?
There are other witnesses here from Boston, but the committee will
want to meet in the morning and conclude this.
The connnittee will stand adjourned until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning,
at which time we will hear two more witnesses from Boston, and these
witnesses, Mr. Frankfeld and Miss Burlak, will remain in "Washington,
and he in this chamber tomorrow at 10 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12: 15 p. m., an adjournment was taken until 10: 30
a. m.. tomorrow, Thursday, April 4, 1940.)
INYESTKI VTION OF UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES m THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, APRIL 4, 1940
House of Repeesentati\tes,
Special Committee to iNVESTiGATTi Un-American Acti\tties,
Washington^ D. 0.
A hearing of the Special Committee to Investigate Un-American
Activities convened at 10 : 30 o'clock, a. m., in the Cancus Room of
the House OfHce Buikling, AVashington, D. C, the Hon. Martin Dies,
chairman, presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Ti.e Chair appoints a subcommittee composed of the Chair, Mr.
Voorhis of California, and Mr. Starnes of Alabama, and Mr. Thomas
of New Jersey until a full quorum appears.
STATEMENT OF RICHAED H. LAWEY, OF PITTSBUEGH, PA.
The Chairman. Mr. Lawry, will you please raise your right hand?
Do you solennily swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth, so help you God I
^Iv. Lawry. I do.
Tlie Chairman. You gave your name the other day. It is Richard
H. Lawry, and you are the same gentleman who appeared before
the committee a few days ago ?
Mr. Lawry. Yes; voluntarily.
The Chairman. I just asked you that for the sake of thei record.
Mr. Barker, will you proceed with the questions?
]Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, what is your residence address?
]Mr. Lawry. I reside now with my daughter at 213 West Eighth
Avenue. West Homestead, Pa.
Mr. Barker. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Lawry. My occupation was, up until I was suspended, super-
visor of the thirty-fourth district of the Census.
The Chairman. X. quorum of the committee being present, com-
posed of ]Mr. Voorhis, the Chaii-man, ]\Ir. Thomas, and Mr. Starnes,
the committee is composed of a full committee, with a quorum pres-
ent.
Mr. Barker. Prior to that time, what was your occupation, Mr.
Lawry?
Mr. Lawry. I was the district President of the International
Workers Order of Western Pennsylvania.
Mr. Barkfji. And you are still the district president of the Inter-
national Workers Order?
7591
7592 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. L-\WRY. Nominally so, because I was elected at the convention,
even thouoh I sent in my resignation in about October or November
it could not be accepted until the next convention.
Mr. Barker. Until next November?
Mr. Lawry. Whenever they have their convention, I think the con-
vention last year was in June, it is never at the same time, once a
year they hold it.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, I believe that you stated on March 29
when you appeared here that you had spoken before several meet-
ings of the Communist Party and other organizations in Pennsyl-
vania ?
Mr, Lawry. Hundreds and hundreds of meetings in my 30 years
of labor activities, of all kinds. Catholic, Protestant, Communist,
Republican, and Democratic, and Socialist, and all kinds of organi-
zations, Kiwanis and chambers of commerce.
Mr, Barker. You stated that you spoke in an open meeting several
years ago as president of the then Farmer-Labor Party at Carnegie
Music Hall ?
Mr, Lawry, I think that they call it the Carnegie Library; this is
on the north side in Pittsburgh.
Mr, Barker, Now, Mr, Lawry, you knovc Ned Sparks, do you not ?
Mr. Lawry. I did know him.
Mr. Barker. Ned S])arks is a Comnuniist?
Mr. Lawry, Yes ; I believe he was the representative.
Mr. Barker. He was in charge of that meeting?
Mr, Laavry. It Inis been so long that I could not tell you; I would
not know whether he was the chairman of the meeting or not ; I do
not know.
Mr. Barker, That meeting was announced to the press, Mr, Lawry,
as the first public meeting of the Communist Party for the western
district of Pennsylvania.
Mr, Laavry. I do not know ; I could not tell you,
Mr, Barker, And you were one of the principal speakers ?
Mr. Laavry, I was on the program ; yes, sir.
Mr, Barker. You were on the program ?
Mr, Lawry, Yes, sir, I know there was quite a hubbub in the paper
about it, and my picture appeared, and I got dozens of phone calls
about my appearance there, but I went just the same,
Mr, Barker, INIr, Lawry, you know John L. Spivak?
Mr, Lawry, I do not ; I never saw him ; I don't know the gentleman,
Mr, Barker. Did your organization arrange for a meeting for him
to speak in February of 1939 in the Lithuanian Citizens Society hall
at 1725 Jane Street, on the south side of Pittsburgh?
Mr. Lawry, I believe that that is correct.
Mr. Barkfjj, That is correct ?
Mr, Lawry, I believe tliat that is correct, I do not know the date,
but I know that they arranged for a meeting there.
Mr, Barker. Mr,' Lawry, Mr, Florent Rogers is president of that
Lithuanian Society, is he not?
Mr, Lawry, I do not know; I never met the gentleman, and I do
not know him by name.
Mr. Barker. You have a member of the International Workers'
Order by the name of John Laughlin ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7593
Mr. Lawhy. I kiunv a man by the name of John Lanshlin ; whether
lie is a member of tlie organization or not, I could not tell yon.
]Mr. Bakker. Did he have anything to do Avith the organization of
this meetino-?
JMr. Lawky. I do not know ; I could not tell you ; I was not at the
meetino-.
Mr. Barker. But it was under the auspices of your organization?
Mr. Lawry. Well, we have 269 lodges of our organization in the
Pittsburgh district, and I don't know what they do.
^fr. Barker. Mr. Lawry. are you aware that the Lithuanians refused
l)ermission for the use of the hall to hold that meeting?
IMr. Lawry. I am. I signed the check for the $10 and later canceled
or stopped payment on the check 6 or 7 months afterward, when we
could not get the check back. They never used the check.
Mr. Barker. Did you know why they refused the use of their hall
to hold that meeting?
Mr. Laavry. I understand that a man by the name of Sullivan had
appeai'ed there, a man who was a formei' investigator for this com-
mittee, and he made certain statements, representinq- himself, I under-
stood, to be an F. B. I. agent, and scared them to the extent that they
refused the use of the hall.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry. did you hear any statement made that the
reason why they refused the use of the hall was that the first knowledge
that they had that the meeting was to be held under the auspices of the
Liternational Workers Order was just before the meeting started?
Mr. Lawry. I do not ; because we had a contract with them, signed
contract.
Mr. Barker. And on the back of that contract it specified that that
meeting was not to be held — that is, that there would be no Com-
munist literature or no Communist speeches made at that meeting.
iNIr. Laavry. I could not tell you that, of course.
Mr. Barker. You saw the contract ?
Mr. Lawry. I remember seeing the contract.
Mr. Barker. Did you not see the provision on the back of the con-
tract ?
Mr. Lawry. I remember that they were supposed to get a permit or
something.
]Mr. Barker. Well, there was Communist literature distributed at
that meeting, was there not ?
Mr. Lawry. I understood the meeting was not held.
Mr. Barker. The crowd assembled for the meeting, Mr. Lawry, if
I can refresh your memory.
Mr. Lawry. I was not there.
]\lr. Barker. You were not present?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly was not there.
Mr. Barker. Did you hear any report that Communist literature
was distributed?
]Mr. Lawry. Xo.
Mr. l^ARKER. U'he meeting was later held in the Russian Hall?
IVIr. Lawry. That is what I understand.
Mr. Barker. This Mr. Sullivan that you speak of, do you know his
full name?
7594 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lawry. I believe it is Edward Francis Sullivan, or Francis
Edward Sullivan.
Mr. Baricer. Did he tell you that he was an F. B. I. agent?
Mr. La WRY. Me? I never saw the man in my life. I do not know
the man.
The Chairman. You were just repeating rumors that you heard?
Mr. Lawry. Just what I haA'e heard ; that is right ; I heard he was
arrested the other day representing himself as an F. B. I. agent.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, do you know Carl Hacker ?
Mr. Lawry. I do, sir.
Mr. Baeker. Carl Hacker was or is still a Communist, is he not?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know ; I could not tell you ; I have not seen
Mr. Hacker for 8 or 9 months ; and as a matter of fact my wife died 6
months ago, and I am rather demoralized, and I .started on my census
job 4 months ago, and I have not been connected with these activities
whatsoever, and I broke up my home, and I have been floating around
from one child to the other child and trying to find myself, so that I
have not been active in the work at all of that kind.
Mr. Barker. Do you know JMr. Hacker personally ?
Mr. Lawry. Oh, yes ; I know Mr. Hacker personally.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Hacker was ousted by the Central Labor Union in
Pittsburgh as president of the Hotel and Restaurant Employees Al-
liance, an affiliate of the American Federation of Labor, because he
was a Communist, was he not?
Mr. Lawry. He was, and reelected the other day by a 12-to-l vote.
Mr. Barker. He was reelected?
Mr. Lawry. To some position.
Mr. Barker. As business agent of the cooks' division ?
Mr. Lawry. By a 12-to-l majority.
Mr. Barker. He was ousted because he was a Communist?
Mr. Lawry. So I understood.
Mr. Barker. Now, Carl Hacker's wife is Lily Hacker?
Mr. Lawry. So I understand.
Mr. Barker. She was a recreation assistant in the city welfare de-
partment ?
Mr. Lawry. She was.
Mr. Barker. Is she a Communist, Mr. Lawry?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know^ ; I never met the lady but a couple of
times in my life.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, did you know that Lily Hacker was listed
as a member of the literature committee of the Daily Worker and edu-
cational director of the Workers School in Pittsburgh in the teachers'
unit?
Mr. Lawp.y. Not being a Communist, I would not know.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, you sponsored the appointment of Lily
Hacker to her position with the city of Pittsburgh as recreation as-
sistant, did you not ?
Mr. Lawry. I understood that she either used my name or I signed
as a recommender along with four or five others. That is the usual
procedure, and I have signed thousands of recommendations in my
public career. Anybody that comes to me, friends of mine, I sign
their petition, or any peoi:»le Avho ask for it.
Mr. Barker. City of Pittsburgh showing the application of Lily
Hacker to the position of recreation assistant, permanent, at a salary
UN-AMERICAN l'K( »I'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7595.
of $1,5G0, unci you ;ire jriveu us Richard H. Lawry, as one of the
reconiineiKlers, at 405 Eighth Avenue. That was your address at
that time^
JNfr. Lawry. That is rijilit.
Mr. Barker. And Steve Bodnar is given as another sponsor.
Mr. Lawry. I do not know him.
]\Ir. Barkkr. Do you know Dave Turets?
Mv. Lawry. He is a prominent attorney in Pittsburgh.
Mr. Barker. And j\Ir. Dave Turets' wife, Leah Turets, was at one
time the secretary of the American League for Peace and Democracy
in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Lawry. Yes ; that is true, and a very lovely woman.
]Mr. Barker. You know, of course, that Mrs. Hacker had recently
resigned her position with the city ?
Mv. Lawry. I understand that that is correct. I investigated after-
ward and found also that she stood among the first three, I believe,
in the civil-service examination, so that she was very well qualified
for the position.
The Chairman. Do I understand, Mr. Barker, that Mrs. Hacker
Avas a member of the literature committee for the Daily Worker, the
official organ of the Communist Party?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. "What evidence do you have of that ?
Mr. Barker. I have a page from a memorandum book that was
taken from the files of Sak Levin, who was secretary of the Com-
munist Workers' School in Pittsburgh, and that memorandum and
files were seized by the district attorney of Allegheny County, Pa.,
on January 3, 1939, in a raid on the Communist Workers' School at:
648 Grant Street, in Pittsburgh.
]Mr. Lawrj', you have been on rather intimate terms at times with
Mr. Carl Hacker?
Mr. Lawry. I have known Mr. Hacker personally for a good many
3'ears.
Mr. Barker. Did you attend meetings in Pittsburgh in observance
of Lenin dav ?
Mr. Lawry. When?
Mr. Barker. In 1938?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly did not.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, is this a picture of you and Mr. Hacker?
Mr. Lawry. That is.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this picture be introduced
as exhibit 1 in the testimony.
The Chairman. Will you ask him where was the picture taken?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly do not know. It was not taken at a Lenin
meeting, I can tell you that.
Mr. Barker. Was it not taken at a demonstration held in Pitts-
burgh at some demonstration there, do you recall ?
]Mr. Laavry. Mr. Hacker was connected with me in the flood relief,
and I was chairman of the flood relief in I believe the St. Patrick's
Day flood, in Pittsl)urgh.
Mr. Dempsey. What do you mean, the St. Patrick's Day flood?
Mr. Lawry. It happened on that day, and they call it that. It was
a terrible flood, the whole section was flooded, and I happened to be
7596 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
appointed the chairman, and we had hundreds and hundreds of peo-
ple on those committees, and Mv. Hacker was one of those.
The Chairman. That is not answering the question. Do you recall
having any picture taken with Mr. Hacker and if so where?
Mr. Law^ry. I saw him many times during the Thompson strikes in
Pittsburgh, and Mr. Hacker was president of the union, and I worked
with the A. F. of L. Hotel and Restaurant Workers' Union at every
opportunity, and they called upon me.
The Chairman. That is still not answering mj^ question.
Mr. Lawrt. I do not remember a picture being taken, I do not, but
I never was at a Lenin memorial meeting.
Mr. Barker. You were a member of the Pittsburgh chapter of the
American League for Peace and Democracy?
Mr. Lawry. Our organization was. Not personal!}-, I was not.
Mr. Barker. You were not a member?
Mr. Lawry. Our organization was represented there in their con-
ferences, and as a delegate was sent to the meetings and so on, and I
do not know whether they had an official membership. I believe that
I have contributed $2 or $3 during my lifetmie, and got their maga-
zine, and if that constitutes membership then I must have been a
member, I do not know. I have given contributions.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr: Barker. On November 26 and 27, 1937, Mr. Lawry, the Peo-
ple's Congress for Peace and Democracy sponsored by the American
League Against War and Fascism, held a convention in Pittsburgh,
Pa., under the chairmanship of Dr. Harry F. Ward, in Duquesne
Gardens, and later in Motor Square Gardens, and you were on a com-
mittee at that meeting, were you not?
Mr. Laavry. I may have been, I do not know. They may have used
my name for a committee, I remember being there at both sessions, in
Duquesne Gardens and the Motor Square Gardens, sitting almost
clean in the rear, and I did not participate in any way, shape, or form
in the congress as such.
Mr. Barker. You do not know whether or not you were a member
of the committee?
Mr. Lawry. They used my name on almost every committee for
progressive action in the Pittsburgh district. They would call me up
on the phone and I would say, "Go ahead and use it."
Mr. Thomas. What sort of a meeting was that, Mr. Barker?
Mr. Barker. This was the People's Congress for Peace and Democ-
racy, sponsored by the American League Against War and Fascism.
Mr. Thomas. This was an organization that you called a progres-
sive organization ?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly would call the League for Peace and De-
mocracy a progressive organization.
Mr. Barker. How about the Communist Party, do j^ou call that a
progressive organization ?
Mr. Lawry. Not being one. I am not interested. I do not know
anything about the Communist Party.
Mr. Dempsey. You say that you are not interested in the League
for Peace and Democracy?
Mr. Lawry. I have been elected for 18 years of public life, and I
participated in activities for 30 years, long before there was a Com-
UN-AMKRICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7597
inuiHst Party, and I am doino- the same thing today as I did 30
years ago.
Mr. Dkmpsey, You have no opinion as to whether the Comnnniist
Party is :i ]n-ogressive organization ^
^Ir. Lawky. I do not know anything about their philosophy.
Mr. Barker. You have testified that you spoke frequently at Com-
munist Party meetings?
Mr. La WRY. Oh, no; I did not. I never was involved in a closed
Communist Party meeting; I think that I told you I spoke a couple
of times, once in particular, at the North Side Carnegie Music Hall.
Mr. Barker. That was the first open meeting of the Communist
Party for the western district of Pennsylvania.
Mr. Lawry. I do not know; I could not tell you that.
Mr. Barker. Do you not know that that was announced in the
press ?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know whether it was the first meeting, I was
burgess in West Homestead, the chief executive officer of the town,
and they asked me to go and I went there, and I spoke.
^Ir. Barker. Mr. Chairman, here is the previous testimony of this
witness on March 29, on page 65 :
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Lawry, you said that you had spoken on numerous
occasions for unemployment councilsV
Mr. Lawry. Yes ; I liave spoken thousands of times before practically every
kind of organization. Republican, Democratic, Socialist, unemployed, for 30
years I have been in the progressive labor movement.
Mr. Matthews. You did not know at the time you spoke that they were
auxiliary organizations of the Communist Party, did you?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly did not.
Now, j-ou said, "For 30 years I have been in the progressive labor
movement." Were you speaking of the Communist Party there, Mr.
Lawr}' I
Mr. Lawry. For 30 years I have been in the progressive and labor
movement.
Mr, Barker. You seem to run the two all together here. You said
that you had been speaking before every kind of organization, in-
cluding the Communist Party.
]\Ir. Lawry. I told you that I had spoken to my knowledge a
couple of times, once that I was specific about, I remember in the
Carnegie Music Hall on the north side of Pittsburgh, because I know
at least 30 or 40 of my friends in public life, judges and lawyers,
called me up and said, ''Lawry, do not attend that meeting.*' But I
went anyway, and I went to the meeting, and, of course, there was
a lot of publicity about it in the papers, and my picture and one
tiling and another was taken, and I spoke, and I did not care what
they were as long as they were open meetings, and other people were
on the program.
But nobody ever involved me in any sectarian activities of any
})articular group; I Avas not involved.
Mr. Barker. Ben Careathers is a Communist in Pennsylvania, is
he not ?
Mr. Lawry. He is.
Mr. Barker. Is he a candidate for the United States Senate on
the Communist Party ticket ?
Mr. Laavry. I could not tell voii that.
7598 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barker. Well, Joseph Chandler is a Communist?
Mr. La WRY. I understand so.
Mr. Barker. And George Powers is a Communist?
ISIr. Laavrt. I understand so.
Mr. Barker. O. M. Jorstad is a Communist?
Mr. Lawry. I could not tell you that.
ISIr. Barker. Carl Hacker, I believe you identified as a Communist?
Mr. Lawry. That is rig-ht.
Mr. Barker. And R. Norman ISIcKibben is a Communist ?
Mr. Lawry. I could not tell you that, he never told me, so I would
not know.
Mr. Barker. He has been a candidate for office in Pennsylvania on
the Communist ticket ?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know that.
Mr. Barker. JNIr. Lawr}", those men that you identified as Com-
munists— George Powers and Carl Hacker and Ben Careathers — ap-
pear as membei's of the school board of the Pittsburgh Workers School
in Pittsburgh, and your name appears there as a director along with
them.
Mr. Lawry. I do not know. I never authorized my name to be used
as any director of any workers' school to my knowledge.
Mr. Barker. Did you ever go to the Workers School ?
Mr. Lawry. Never did I attend a session of the Workers School, and
the man who said it lied, he lies, and I wired that Post Gazette a $2.80
telegram, but they would not publish it the day that was published, the
day that that was published in the papers, and I do not know this man
who is a newspaper reporter, and when he said that he is a liar.
Mr. Barker. You know Fred Abbott, alias Fred Abbott Berko-
witz ?
Mr. Lawry. I have met the gentleman.
Mr. Barker. He was a director of the Communist Workers School in
Pittsburgh ?
Mr. Lawry. I so read it in the papers.
Mr. Barker. Did you know that they were using your name, Mr.
Lawry, as a director of that school?
iSIr. Lawry. I did not; I certainly did not. I have never seen any
of their literature, so if they used my name they used in without my
permission.
Mr. Barker. What was the ])redecessor school for the Communist
Workers School in Pittsburgh. IMr. Lawry ?
Mr. Lawry. I would not know.
Mr. Barker. It was known as the Pittsburgh Labor School, was it
not, Mr. Lawry?
Mr. Lawry. I believe that years ago there was an attempt to organ-
ize a Pittsbiu'gh labor school, and whether or not it was organized I
do not know.
Mr. Barker. Here is a letter dated November 16, 1936, signed by
Fred Abbott, with the school board on here, and your name appears, is
that right, Mr. Lawry?
Mr. Lawry. That is not the workers school there, is it ? That is
the Pittsburgh Labor School in 1936, my name is on there.
Mr. Barker. And Fred Abbott Berkowitz who signed that letter is
a Communist ?
Mr. Lawry. So it is stated in the papers, he never told me.
rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7599
Mr. Bai{kei{. The address of that scliool, Mr. L;h\ ry, is 607 Bigelow
Boiilevfird.
Mr. Lawky. That is con-pct.
Mr. Bai;ivKI{. And also listed on here are (leorge Powers, Carl
Hacker, and Ben Careathers.
Mr. La WRY. Along with a good many other names.
Mr. Bakker. And Xed Sparks.
Mr. Lawry. And Key Swann. He is a nev.spaperman, and I would
not think that he was a Connnunist from his conversations with me.
Mr. Barker. The address at 607 Bigelow Boulevard, Mr. Lawry,
was the headquarters for the Connnunist Party in Pittsburgh at that
time, was it 'i
]\Ir. Lawry. I do not know ; I could not tell you.
Mr. Barker. There also appears on this list Mr. B. K. Gebert. He
is a member of the national committee of the Connnunist Partv, is he
not ?
Mv. Lawry. I would not know. I know he was president of the
fraternal orders connnittee which I participated in, I think, in 1936.
The CiiAiRjiAN. Did you know him as a Communist?
Mr. Lawry. I did not.
The Chairman. You never heard he was a Communist?
Mr. Lawry. There were 578,000 people represented in all of these
various organizations in supi^ort of the organization of the C. I. O.
stetd workers' organizing committee.
The Chairman. I am speaking about this particular man ; j^ou never
knew him as a Communist ?
Mr. Lawry. Xo.
]Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, here is an announcement of tlie meeting —
the Lenin memorial meeting — to be held in Duquesne Gardens, on
January 23, 1938. Do you recall attending that meeting?
^Ir. Laavry. Xo, sir; I certainly did not.
jMr. Barker. That announcement states : "America's Road to Peace,
Speaker: Phil Frankfeld, organizer, the Communist Party of X^ew
England. The Xeed for Labor Lenity. Speaker : Carl Hacker. Ad-
mission with this ticket, 20 cents. Auspices, Communist Party of
Pittsburgh,'" and the address on the back of that is 607 Bigelow Boule-
vard, is it not, Mr. Lawry?
Mr. Lawry. That is what it looks like to me.
Mr. Barker. That is 607 Bigelow Boulevard?
^Ir. Lawry. Yes.
Mr. Barker. ]\Ir. Lawry, do you not know whether or not Xorman
McCubbin is a Comnumist, do you?
Mr. Lawry. Xo.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, you are president of the League for the
Protection of Minority Riglits in Pittsburgh?
Mr. Lawry. That is correct.
Mr. Barker. They i)ublish a publication called "Appeal to Reason"?
Mr. Lam-ry. That is correct ; they did.
]\Ir. Barker. Do they any more?
Mr. Lawry. I have not seen it for probably 6 or 7 months.
Mr. Barker. And Ikuijamin H. Rosen is given as the executive
secretary. Do you know him ?
Mr. Laavry. I met him once; he is a little attorney there in Pitts-
burgh— an attorney at law.
04931— 40— vol. 12 20
7600 un-a:mekican propaganda activities
Mr. Barker. Is he a Communist ?
JMr. La WRY. I am sure that he is not ; I am very sure that he is not.
Mr. Barker. Mr. La wry, you attended the meeting given for Rock-
well Kent on Tuesday, April 11, 1939, sponsored by the American
League for Peace and Democracy, in the Webster Hall Hotel, at
Pittsburgh, did you not ?
Mr. La WRY. I certainly did not.
Mr. Barker. You did not attend that meeting?
Mr. Lawry. No, sir; I did not; I do not know Mr. Kent. I have
heard of him, but I never met him, and I never saw him, to my
knowledge.
Mr. Barker. The directors of the Carnegie Library denied him the
use of that hall on account of his being a Communist, did they ?
Mr. Laavry. I so read in the newspapers.
Mr. Barker. And you were not present at that meeting?
Mr. Lawry. No. sir; I was not present.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, did you attend a meeting on April 29, in
Pittsburgh, at the North Side Carnegie Hall, to hear W. Z. Foster
speak ?
]Mr. Laavry. I have not heard Mr. Foster speak since 1919, when
they were organizing the A. F, of L. steel drive.
Mr. Barker. Now, the International Workers' Order, of which you
are the district president in the Pittsburgh area, has a fife-and-drum
corps, Mr. Lawry, do you recall that?
Mr. Lawry. A bugle-and-drum corps. We have 11 of them in the
Pittsburgh district.
Mr. Barker. Do you know that they furnished the music for that
Communist meeting that night?
Mr. Lawry. I do not; I do not.
Mr. Barker. Was it with your sanction?
Mr. Lawry. I was not there, and I certainly would not sanction it
had I known anything about it. If they did participate, I do not
know.
Mr. Barker. Who is Mr. Smith of the W. P. A., that is the leader
of this drum-ancl-bugle corps?
Mr. Lawry. I only know Mr. Smith as the director of a drum-and-
bugle corps from the W. P. A. ; I do not know who he is. He is an
American Legion boy. He was in the employ of the W. P. A.
Mr. Barker. That is what I understand, he is in the employ of the
W. P. A.
Now, this drum-and-bugle corps of the International Workers Or-
der, Mr. Lawry, is known as the Russian section of the drum corps
of the International Workers' Order, is it not?
Mr. Lawry. Well, possibly it is known that way, I do not know,
I could not tell you that. I am not handling the junior activities, so
I do not know.
Mr. Barker. But you are the district president of the International
Workers' Order ?
Mr. Lawry. That is correct.
Mr. Bariver. And as such you had knowledge that this was going
on, did you not?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know what is going on in the 269 branches
I would like to have it understood that I am just the nominal head
of it, and all I do is go out and speak at membership meetings in an
UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ygQl
effort to <rain nu'iiibcrship in a fraternal benefit society that pays
sick and death benefits, that is my job, I do not participate in lodge
activities, I never visit any lodges, or very, very rarely, if they have
some tronble, 1 might be called in, or if they have a big meeting I
go to the meeting.
Mr. Barker. I believe that you testified that you were not a Com-
munist and had never been?
Mr. Lawuy. I am not now or never have been a Conmiunist.
Mr. I^ARKKR. ^Ir. Ltiwry, did you attend a meeting of the Friends
of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade on April 12, 1939?
Mr. Laavry. I could not tell you, unless you would place the meet-
ing, and tell me Avliere it was.
Mr. Barker. I will tell you that. It was at the home of Mr. and
Mrs. ^like Durso, at 1306 LaClare Street, at Swissvale, Pa,
Mv. Laavry. I believe that I dropped in at that meeting, and I sat
on the front porch and left very shortly, the meeting Avas just about
OA'er Avhen I got there, maybe at 10:30 or 11 o'clock,
Mr. Barker. Do you knoAv that you made the collection speech that
night, at that meeting, and they took up a collection?
^Ir. Laavry. That is true; I got there late, and they called upon
me. and I sat on the porch during the meeting, and then they called
on me and I left shortlv after that.
Mr. Barker. And they got $62 that night?
Mr. Laavry. I do not knoAV what they got.
;Mr. Barker. You made a contribution yourself, did you not ?
]Mr. Laavry. I could not tell you that ; I guess I did. I always
make contributions Avhen I have the money.
Mr. Barker. That is a meeting of tliq Friends of the Abraham
Lincoln Brigade. Now, present at that meeting Avas Dr. Valinski,
the local chairman of the local League for Peace and Democracy.
^[v. Laavry. I do not remember; I knoAv that there are tens of
thousands of people that knoAv me, and I knoAV them, and I cannot
remember. I am at meetings eA^ery day and every night.
Mr. Barker. And a Mr. Prince, an organizer for the Office Work-
ers Union?
]Mr. Laavry. I do not knoAv the man.
Mr. Barker. Do yoti remember anybody that was present at that
meeting?
Mr. Laavry. X remember that I Avas present.
Mr. Barker. Do you remember ]Mr. Larimer A. Myer of Frank
& Seder Department Store, as being present?
Mr. Laavry. I do not knoAv the gentleman.
Mr. Barker. Well, you Avere introduced to the people there.
Mr. Laavry. Listen, I am introduced to thousands of people, I am
a handshaker. I have been elected for 18 years of public life, and I
have received 30,000 votes in the last election, many more votes than
many Congressmen got that are sitting doAvn here.
]Mr. Barker. In other Avords, the Communist Party just comes
along, and you shake hands Avith them and go around Avith them?
^Ir. Laavry. Anybody and eAcrybody; yes. I like to make friends.
]\Ir. Barker. Do you solicit their sup]:)ort at these elections at
whicli you have been elected Avith tremendous majorities that 3'ou
speak of?
Mr. Laavra". In the last election I got 30.000 votes, and I ncA-er
made a speech and never asked anylxjdy to vote for me. My wife
7602 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
had died, and I was unable to participate in the cam])aiwn, and yet
I o;ot 30,000 votes. I made si:)eeches for Cono;ressman Allen, and
speeches for Congressman Dunn, and for ])ractically every judo^e
sitting on the bench in the Republican and Democratic parties, and
I have been in public life for all of these years.
Mr. Dempsey. You mean you make them for both sides?
Mr. Lawry. I have in my ])ast life; at one time there was no such
thino; as Democrats in Pittsburgh, and I was a Republican up to
that time, and it was good policy to be a Democrat in 1932 and I
changed over to be a Democrat.
Mr. Demi'SET. That is quite understandable, sir.
Mr. Lawry. I was Mr. Dunn's cami^aign manager, and he ran on
the inde])endent ticket, and was elected fortunately with the votes
of the independents that year; he did not get enough on the
Democratic ticket, and Judge Ellenbogen I also worked for in that
election campaign.
Mr. Tho^ias. And now that the tide is swinging the other way, you
will probably swing back the other way with it ?
Mr. Lawuy". I will probably swing back if they get the majority.
I have been known as a politician, but never as a faker.
The Chairman. Let us proceed, we have some further witnesses
here.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lawry, your picture appeared in the Fraternal
News, issued by the International Workers Order, 68 Fifth Avenue,
New York, did it not ^
Mr. Lawky'. Oh, yes; I su])pose dozens of times.
Mr. Barker. What is the pur])ose of this organization known as
the League for the Protection of Minority Rights?
Mr. Lawry. To fight against anti-Semitism, to fight against oppres-
sion of the alien-born citizens, all alien-born here in the United
States, an organization which I believe has done a very, very good
job, and I am very proud to be the nominal head, although I was
just the nominal head.
Mr. Starnes. You are not interested in all minorities?
Mr. Lawry. All minorities ; yes. That is regardless of race or color
or creed or political affiliation.
Mr. Starnes. Or regardless of whether or not they were property
holders ?
Mr. Lawry. I do not care what they are, if they are human beings.
Mr. Starxes. You would defend the chambers of commerce?
Mr. Lawry^. I belong to the chamber of commerce, and the Kiwanis
Club, the Eagles, the Owls, the Moose — I am a joiner; I belong to all
of them.
Mr. Starnes. You are a professional joiner, then?
Mr. Lawry'. That is right ; the votes in the ballot box is what counts.
Mr. Barker. You did not happen to join the Communist Party, did
you?
Mr. Lawry. No.
My. Barker. Hovr come you missed that?
Mr. Lawry. I told you that I had no i)olitical ideology beyond the
present day; and I pick up a newspaper, and whatever is of interest (o
the workers and masses, that is what I work for, and if it injures them
I fight against it, and if it is for tliem I favor it.
UN-AMEParAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7(503
Mr. Bahkkk. Mr. Lawry, you attended the dedication of a room at
the Pittsburo-li AVorkers School in honor of ]\h)tlK'r IMoor, of PhiLi-
delphia. Pa., did yon not?
Mr. L.AWKY. At* the Workers School ? No, sir : I did not.
I was never in the Workers School, and tlie man that says so lies.
Mr. Bakker. And you still do not know how come your name to be
used as a member of' the board of directors of this Pittsburo;h labor
school ?
Mr. Lawrt. That was back in 193G, and I do not think that it ever
M'ent through. I think that I was asked, and was told that it was
ffoino- to be a broad oraanization, and I told them that if that was tlie
case, and they mentioned names to me of people who were gonig to be
on tlie committee, and I said if that was the case they could use my
name, and I cannot remember the circumstances.
]Mr. Barker. Where did they draw their students from for this
Pittsburgh labor school '.
]Mr. Lawrt. I could not tell you ; I never attended them ; I have r.o
knowledge.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Fred Abbott, alias Fred Berkowitz, states here ni
this letter that the former executive connnittee of the workers school —
that is, the Pittsburgh Communist Workers School — has kindly turned
over to us the names and addresses of its former students. Do you
know anything about that ?
Mr. Lawry. I certainly do not; I do not know anything about it.
Mr. Barkfjj. This Pittsburgh Labor School was just a front for the
Communist Workers School, as a matter of fact, was it not?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know that it ever existed, beyond the state-
ment that I am telling you — that I can remember distinct!}- that they
came and asked me if they could use my name. If somebody called
me on the telephone and told me that they were going to organize a
labor school in Pittsburgh, and mentioned a lot of prominent people,
I was careful enough whenever that happened that I saw that there
were other people in public life connected with things before I appeared
on 'public platforms or before I appeared in orgaiiizations.
]Mr. Barker. You did know that this Pittsburgh Labor School and
the Connnunist Workers' School had the same address?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know any such thing; I told you that; I an-
swered that question.
Mr. B.^RKER. They were located at 607 Bigelow Boulevard?
. Mr. Laavry. I did not knovc that; I answered that question before.
Mr. Barker. That was the address of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know that that was the case.
j\Ir. Thomas. I would like to know where all of this questioning is
going to lead.
]\Ii-. Barker. I have just one or two more questions to ask.
The Chairman. Let us hurry, because Ave have got some more v>nt-
nesses here.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. LaA\ry, do you knoAv that Max B?dacht is the
general secretary of the International Workers' Order, of which you
are tlie district ])resident?
Mr. Laavry. I do; I ansAvered that before.
Mr. ^NIattheavs. When Max Bedacht Avas a Avitness before this com-
mittee, he identified an article Avhich he Avrote for the Daily Worker, in
7604 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
which article he stated the International Workers' Order is an organi-
zation that allows Communist leadership to drive its roots into the
uncharted depths of the American working masses, where class con-
sciousness has not yet penetrated. The building of the I. W. O. is
therefore one of the most important tasks of the mass work of the
Communist Party. Did you ever see that statement?
Mr. La WRY. I do not remember ever seeing it ; no.
Mr. Matthews. Do you subscribe to that statement?
Mr. Lawry. Me? I could not tell you without studying it.
Mr. Matthews. But you are the head of an organization whose
general secretary states that as the purpose.
The Chairman. He said that he could not say whether he subscribed
to it unless he studied it.
Mr. Matthews. I show you a pamphlet published by the Interna-
tional Workers' Order, Mr. Lavviy; and have you ever seen that
pamphlet ?
Mr. Lawry. I never did. That is in 1932; I did not join the Inter-
national Workers' Order until about 1937, I think.
Mr. Matthews. Have you any reason to know that the Interna-
tional Workers' Order has changed its leadership since 1932?
Mr. Lawry. I do not know.
Mr. IVIatthews. Do you not know that Max Bedacht has been the
general secretai-y from that time down to the present?
Mr. Lawry. I could not tell you that ; I do not know. He has been
ever since I have been a member.
Mr. Matthews. In this pamphlet of the International Workers'
Order appears the following statement, on page 12:
The fight for the defense of the Soviet Union is not contained in the platform
of the three capitalist parties, tliey are contained only in tlie platforms of the
Communist Party.
And then again, on page 15 of this International Workers' Order
pamphlet, appears the following statement :
The more vigorously we defend our common socialist fatherland, the better
for the I. W. O. as a fraternal organization.
Do you subscribe to that ?
Mr. Lawry. I do not think because a member of the organization
makes a statement that I necessarily have to be for it.
Mr. Matthews. This is not a member of the organization, this is
an official pamphlet of the organization.
Mr. Lawry. I would have to study it first before I could answer
any questions.
Mr. Matthew^s. This has been identified, Mr. Chairman, as an
official pamphlet.
The Chairman. He says that he cannot say whether he will sub-
scribe to it unless he has an opportunity to study it.
Mr. Lawry. I know, Mr. Chairman; if you please, I have a book
here in my possession where 75 of the leading manufacturers of the
country advertise in a Communist publication, and would you like
to see it ?
The Chairman. That is not pertinent here. Here is a question
where the organization puts out a pamphlet and makes certain
statements.
rX-AMERICAN rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7605
Mr. Lawkt. I Avoiild not say tliat these manufacturers subscribed
to it.
The CiiAiRMAx. You are (lie district representative of the orofani-
zation, and as I understand your answer, it is that you are not
prepared to say wliether you agree with the statement of the organi-
zation or not unle.ss you have an o])portunity to study it.
Mr. Lawry. That is right : and what T meant to get across was
tliat these people do not necei^sarily subscribe to conununism because
they advertise in this book — people like the Morgan Engineering Co.
and the Chase National Bank.
jMr. Demi'Sey. Tliey are not members of the organization.
]Mr. Lawry. But they advertise in a Communist publication.
The Chairman. This is a case, as I have tried to point out to you,
where you are the district rejn-esentative, the district secretary, or
the district president of the organization, and the organization has
gone on record for certain things as an organization.
Mr. Lawry. I do not believe that that is true. Our constitution
is the thing that I should be guided by, and the constitution says
that we take in people regardless of race, color, creed, or ])oliticaI
affiliation, and we do not have anything to do with any individual
statement, whether it be the president of the organization or the
secretary, and I subscribe only to what is in the constitution, and
that is what I am guided by.
I\Ir. Thomas. For the sake of the record, I would like to have that
pamphlet described that Mr. Matthews just referred to.
Mr. Lawry. That is dated 1932.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to have the description of the pamphlet
for the record.
Mr. Matthews. It says :
We support the Cominunist candidate in this year's election, every member of
the International Workers Order must rally behind the Communist election
platform, issued by the campaign committee of the International Workers Order,
August 1932.
Mr. Lawry. Unless it would be an official action of a delegated con-
vention body, nobody would have authority to conmiit the membership
of that or any other organization.
Mr. Bariver. Mr. Lawry, you had some 233 enumerators in your
district, as district supervisor for tlie census, did you not?
Mr. Lawry. I did not.
Mr. Barker. Who appointed those people?
Mr. Lawry. 1 could not tell you. 1 was suspended before the ap-
pointment of these folks, I was suspended I believe on the first day
that they were to come in to school.
Mr. Barker. I will ask that the witness step aside, we have another
witness to hear.
I would like to liave Mr. Johnson come around.
STATEMENT OF VINCENT JOHNSON, PITTSBURGH, PA.
The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly sw^ear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Johnson. I do.
7606 UN-AMERIC^AN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barkek. Your name is Vincent Johnson?
Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Barker. You are a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette?
Mr. Johnson. Tliat is right.
Mr. Barker. Mr. Johnson, in 1938 you enrolled as a student in the
Pittsburgh Communist Workers fc-chool?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. You did?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Did they know that you were a reporter at the time?
Mr. Johnson. They foimd out subsequently.
Mr. Barker. They did?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
^Ir. Barker. Your paper subsequently published a series of articles
written bv vou in regard to that school ?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Do you know Mr. Richard H. Lawry?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Did you see him at the Pittsburgh Workers' School?
Mr. Johnson. Definitely.
Mr. Barker. You did?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Do you remember one particular occasion when you
saw him there?
Mr. Johnson. Yes; that was at the dedication of the Mother Bloor
Room.
Mr. Barker. Did he make a speech that night ?
Mr. Johnson. No ; he did not make a speech.
Mr. Barker. Have you also covered other meetings in outlying
districts of Pittsburgh at which Mr. Lawry attended ?
Mr. Johnson. Yes; of various left-wing organizations.
Mr. Barker. And he was a speaker ?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. That is all, Mr. Johnson.
Mr. Thomas. Just a minute. I would like to have the witness
explain what he means by a left-wing organization. What are some
of these organizations that this man attended.
Mr. Johnson. For instance, the League for Peace and Democracy,
the League Against War and Fascism, and as I remember it, there
was one particular occasion at the Hotel Mayfair which I heard
mentioned previously, Mr. Lawry solicited contributions for either
one of those two organizations. My memory is not clear in my mind
which one it was, except that it is definitely in my memory that he
did do that.
Mr. Thomas. And what two organizations were they?
Mr. Johnson. It was either one of the League for Peace and
Democracy, or the League Against War and Fascism.
The Chairman. Well, this Workers' School, there was no question
but what it was a Communist school ?
Mr. Johnson. Revolution was taught.
The Chairman. Revolution was taught at the school?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
UN-AMEHIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 76U7
The Chairman. Aiul there is no question, your memory is distinct
that Mr. Lnwry was present in the Workers' School upon the occasion
of its dedication to Mother Bloor, or in honor of Mother Bloor?
jNIr. Johnson. Yes, Mr. Dies; I liave. The way the story was
liandled, I kept a diary daj' by day, and submitted it to the city
editor, and I have the diary here which carries the mention of seeing
Mr. La wry at the school on that occasion.
Mv. Barker. He was there on other occasions, too ?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you the dairy with you, the original entries?
You made the entries immediately after the meeting ?
INIr. Johnson. Yes.
The Chairman. Would you mind showing us what the entry is?
Mr. Thomas. How long were you a student at that school?
Mr. Johnson. Roughly 3 months, for one semester.
Mr. VooRHis. Was that school run by the Communist Party?
Mr. Johnson. It was run as an adjunct and as a recruiting station
for the Communist Party.
IMr. Barker. Did they ask you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Johnson. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Who asked you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Johnson. Once it was James Eagan, who at the time, I think,
as I recollect, was State secretary of the Communist Party, and once
by a young man by the name of Al Rock.
The Chair3ian. All right ; read tlie notation.
Mr. Johnson. Is one paragraph sufficient ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Johnson (reading) :
Mother Bloor seut a message of good wishes to the meeting. Ex-Burgess Rich-
ard Lawry was there for awhile.
And tlien I have in parentheses, "West Homestead."
The Chairman. You prepared that immediately after the meeting
and filed that with your city editor ?
Mr. Johnson. It is dated Septeml)er 2J— that would have been 1938.
Mr. Voorhis. I just wanted to ask whether, when you went to this
school, whether you were told of any connections with the Communist
Party, or whether there was an attempt made to kee]) that from loeing
known. In other words, Avas it an under-cover proposition, or was it,
quite frankly, a Communist enterj)rise?
iSIr. Johnson. The prospectus of the school that is given out to stu-
dents openly states that it is a ^Marxist — it teaches Marxist ideology.
The instructors there for obvious reasons mainly work under ])seudo-
nyms, and it was secret to the extent it was something like a Sunday
club — you got in if you were known. I got into it on the merest
chance — taking a chance and bluffing and it worked for awhile.
Mr. Barker. Mr. John Stuben was a teacher at that school ?
Mr. Johnson. Stuben, as I recall it, was scheduled to be a teacher for
the semester subsequent to the one that I attended, and then the school
was broken up, and whether he taught subsequently, I do not know.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions? If not, the witness
may stand aside.
fh.e CHAiRrkiAN. AVill you come around, Mr. Frankfeld?
7608 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
STATEMENT OF PHIL FKANKFELD, STATE SECRETARY,
COMMUNIST PARTY OF MASSACHUSETTS
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the Avhole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr, Frankfeld. I do.
Mr. CoHN. I am appearing as Mr. Frankfeld's attorney.
The Chairman. The committee will recess for just a few minutes.
(Recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. La wry, you heard the testimony of Mr. Johnson, did you not,
a moment ago ?
Mr. La WRY. Not too clearly; but I remember him stating that I
attended a meeting at the Workers' School for a short time, and he said
that he had in parentheses ''West Homestead," at which Mother Bloor
was tliere, and I wish to deny that.
The Chairman. I do not believe that that is quite accurate. He
testified that you attended the meeting at wdiich she sent a message,
some sort of a meeting in honor of her, and not that she was present.
Mr. Lawry. I just wish to deny emphatically that I was there at
that time, or any other time in attendance at the Workers' School or at
their sessions.
The Chairman. And the use of your name as a director was without
your consent?
Mr. Lawry. That is not in the record; that was a prior time, in
1936.
The Chairman. But that was without your consent ?
Mr. Law^ry. Yes.
Mr. Frankfeld. Mr. Dies, before answering all of your questions,
10,000 people, Massachusetts citizens, delegated me to read a resolu-
tion adopted last Sunday in the Boston arena, and this will take no
more than 2 seconds, sir.
The Chairman. If you want that resolution read, if you want to
put it in any record, give it to a Member of Congress; we will not
receive resolutions in this committee.
Mr. Frankfeld. I am quite certain that, following a democratic
procedure, you will permit 10,000 people, Massachusetts citizens, to
be heard, sir.
The Chairman. We control the procedure of the committee. Pro-
ceed with the questions.
Mr. Frankfeld. Before I answer a single questi(jn, Mr. Dies
The Chairman (interposing). The committee denies you the right
to read any resolution.
Mr. Frankfeld. You are attempting to silence the voices of 10,000
citizens.
The Chairman. You are going to be courteous to this committee.
The committee has already informed you that it will not receive any
resolution that you are prepared to read, and now that is final.
Mr. Frankfeld. I was instructed by 10,000 people to speak for
them.
The Chairman. I have already told you the ruling.
Mr. Frankfeld. I hope that vou do not want to convict vourself of
being
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7609
Ml'. Starxes (interposing). I move that we strike that remark
from the record.
The Chairman. The witness's remarks are ^stricken.
iNIr. Matthews. Will you please state your full name?
Mr. Fraxkfeld. I will not answer a single question until you per-
mit those 10,000 citizens to be heard.
The Chairman. Shall we hold the witness in contempt? The wit-
ness is held in contempt. Let the record show that. You are not
making any other statement. You are directed to answer questions,
and you have declined to answer,
Mr. Frankfeld. And you declined to listen to 10,000 citizens of our
country.
The Chairman. You decline to answer any question. Remove the
witness.
Tlie Chairman. Who is the next witness ?
Mr. MattheW'S. Miss Ann Burlak.
The Chairman. Miss Ann Burlak, come around to the witness stand.
If there is any demonstration in the room on the part of anyone,
he will be immediately ordered outside the room, and now let us
proceed.
Miss Burlak, raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Burlak. I do.
Mr. Cohn. I represent Miss Burlak.
STATEMENT OF ANN BURLAK. ADMINISTEATIVE SECRETARY OF
THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF NEW ENGLAND
Mr. Matthews. Miss Burlak, will you please give your full name
for the record ?
Miss Burlak. Miss Ann Burlak.
Mr. ]Matthew^s. What is your residence?
Miss Burlak. Tliirty-seven Falmouth Street, Boston.
Mr. Matthews. AVhat is your occupation?
Miss Burlak. Administrative secretary of the Communist Party of
New England.
Mr. Matthew^s. Hoav long have you held that position?
Miss Burlak. A little over a year.
]Mr. Matthews. Where were you prior to the time you assumed the
duties of this position ?
Miss Burlak. I was State organizer of the Communist Party of
Rhode Island.
Mr. Matthews. You are a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Burlak. Obviously.
Mr. ^Iatthew^s. How long have you been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Miss Burlak. Since about 1929.
Mr. Matthews. Do you remember the date of your joining?
Miss Burlak. Not particularly.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you join ?
Miss Burlak. In Bethlehem, Pa.
Mr. Matthews. Who recruited you into membership in the Com-
munist Party?
Miss Burlak. I joined myself.
7610 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVIT1P:S
Mr. Matthews. Did anyone solicit you to join?
Miss BuRLAK. No. Motlier Bloor happened to be speaking at a>
mass meeting and I thoug-lit she made a very fine exphmation of the
aims of the Communist Party, and I joined.
Mr. IVIatthews. What other position have you hekl from the time
of your joining tlie Connnunist Party, in the organization ?
Miss BuRLAK. The only official positions I held was State secretary
in Rhode Island, and now the administrative secretary in New Eng-
land.
]VIr. Matthews. Whei-e were you born, Miss Burlak ?
Miss Burlak. In Pennsylvania.
Mr. Matthews. At what place?
Miss Burlak. Slatington.
Mr. Matthews. Have you held positions in any trade unions?
Miss Burlak. Yes; certainly.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please enumerate them? And the ap-
proximate dates.
Miss Burlak. I held positions in the National Textile Workers
Union.
Mr. Matthews. When was that?
Miss Burlak. Well, I joined the union in 1928, since I was a textile
worker. My first position in the union was when I was sent as or-
ganizer into Scranton, Pa., in 1929, the fall of 1929.
A few months later I was sent as organizer by the union into South
Carolina, where I functioned for some 6 months, roughly.
Mr. Matthews. This was still the National Textile Workers
Union?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
I also worked in the State of Georgia for a little while, and later
came to New England.
Mr. Matthews. What work did you do in the State of Georgia?
Miss Burlak. Organizer for the National Textile Workers Union.
Mr. Matthew\s. Was that in 1935 ?
INIiss Burlak. About then. About the very beginning of 1930.
Mr. Matthews. And then you went to New England ?
Miss Burlak. Then I went to New England, to Rhode Island,
where I functioned as the organizer of the union in Rhode Island.
Mr. Matthews. What year was that?
Miss Burlak. That was in 1931.
Mr. Matthews. And then what were your activities?
Miss Burlak. Well, later I was elected as national secretary of the
National Textile Workers Union.
Mr. Matthews. Wliat year was that?
Miss Burlak. I think that that was in 1932 or 1933. I don't recall
which. I functioned in that capacity until 1934, when the union was
dissolved, and all members at that time joined the American Federa-
tion of Labor.
Mr. Matthews. What was the political affiliation of the National
Textile Workers Union?
Miss Burlak. There was no political affiliation. It was a trade-
union.
Mr. Matthews. With what larger body of trade-unions was it
affiliated ?
Miss Burlak. With the Trade Union Unity League.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7611
Mr, Matthews. Was the Trade Union Unity League in turn affil-
iated with the Red International of Labor Unions?
Miss BuRLAK. It had a fraternal affiliation for a while which was
later broken off.
Mr. Matihkws. It did have affiliations with the Ked International?
Miss BuKLAK. For a short period.
Mr. MvTriiEws. That was at one time?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Who was the general secretary of the Trade Union
Unity League, of which the National Textile Workers Union was an
affiliate?
Miss Burlak. I think it was a man by the name of Schmies.
Mr. Matthews. John Schmies?
Miss Burlak. I think so.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know where John Schmies is now?
Miss Burlak. I haven't got the slightest idea.
Mr. Mattheavs. Has John Schmies to yoiu- knowledge recently been
the head of the International Workers' Order in Chicago?
Miss Burlak. Since the National Textile Workers Union was dis-
solved, I know nothing of the activities or whereabouts of Mr. Schmies.
I have had no association with him whatsoever.
Mr. Matthews. Is John Schmies a Communist ?
Miss Burlak. I have no idea.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Did you ever know him as a Connnunist?
Miss Burlak. I do not recall ever meeting him as a Communist.
The CHAmMAN. I believe that you have brought her to 1935. Will
you pursue that?
Mr. Matthews. I want to show the witness a card. Have you ever
seen a section file card such as this one?
Miss Burlak. No.
Mr, Matthews. Of any person, filled out or not filled out ?
Miss Burlak. No.
Mr, Matthews. Mr. Chairman, this is a section file card filled out
in the name of John Schmies, of 180 West Washington, Chicago, Sec-
tion Stockyards, city of Qiicago, charter member of the Communist
Party, Austro-Hungarian, country birth, country of origin, Germany.
This is from the files of the Chicago office of the Communist Pai-ty,
and incidentally, there is no secret whatever about Mr. Schmies' being
a member of the Conmiunist Party, his name having appeared fre-
quently in Connnunist Party publications.
Miss Burlak. So far as I know, I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the national committee of
the Comnuniist Party?
Miss Burlak. I am,
Mr. jSIatthews. Are you a member of the committee, or what is
known as a candidate?
Miss Burlak. I am a candidate on the committee.
Mr. Matthews. A candidate is something of an alternate member?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the national
committee of the Communist Party or an alternate?
Miss Burlak. I was elected at the 1936 convention.
Mr. Matthews. You have been a member 4 years ?
Miss BuELAK. Yes.
7612 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Now, with respect to the National Textile Workers
Union of which you were national secretary at the time of its
dissolution.
Miss BuELAK. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Wliy was the National Textile Workers Unior
dissolved ?
Miss BuRLAK. Because the National Textile Workers Union policy
was to always work with the majority of the workers, and at that
period the majority of the workers were joining the United Textile
Workers Union of the A. F. of L., that was in the strike of 1934, and
the National Textile Workers Union did not wish to be just a sect or
narrow organization of a small group of workers. We had several
thousand workers, and decided to become a part of (his large organ-
ization. We did not join in a body. The individual locals and indi-
vidual members joined the organization as such.
Mr. Matthews. How many members were there of the National
Textile Workers Union when you were national secretary ?
Miss BuRLAK. Roughly, about 5,000.
Mr. Matthews. And how many members were there of the United
Textile Workers of Amei'ica affiliated with the American Federation
of Labor?
Miss BuRLAK. Several hundred thousand. There were 125.000. I
don't know exactly.
Mr. Matthews. And prior to 1934, when the National Textile
Workers Union was dissolved, did the United Textile Workers Union
have hundreds of thousands of members ?
Miss Burlak. No.
Mr. Matthews. Did it have more than 5,000 members?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Considerably more?
Miss Burlak. I don't know the figures. I think if you will look
up the files of their organization, you will find the figures.
Mr. Matthews. Was there any time during the existence of the
National Textile Workers Union, that the United Textile Workers
Union had fewer members than 5,000?
Miss Burlak. No ; I don't think so.
INlr. Matthews. What did you mean, then, by saying that the
majority of workers were joining the United Textile Workers Union
and therefore the National Textile Workers Union shifted its policy?
Miss Burlak. Well, the textile industry lias over 1,000,000 workers
in the United States, and the x^merican Federation of Labor, for a
long time, j^aid no interest to organizing the majority of these work*
ers. They had the skilled craftsmen in the organization, and that ij.
why at that early period the National Textile AVorkers Union went
into the field to organize the unskilled workers, the low-paid workers
of the South and elsewhere.
In 1934, wlien the big strike began, the national strike, workers
began to join by the tens of thousands into the United Textile Work-
ers Union, and when that was happening the National Textile Work-
ers Union decided in executive board, decided it was high time that
we also joined with these hundreds of thousands of workers that were
joining the A. F. of L.
Mv. Matthews. Was the National Textile Workers Union dis-
solved during the so-called great textile strike or aftervs'ard ?
UN-AMERICAN TKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7613
Miss BpRLAK. I think it Avas (lining the strike. I would not ven-
ture on the exact date. Tlie strike was in September of 1934.
Mr. Ma'itiikws. Have yon ever seen an article in the (\)mmunist
of November 15)34. bv Carl Keeve. entitled "Lessons of the Great
National Textile Strike"'^
Miss BruLAK. Yes; I think that I saw that.
Mr. MATriiEws. Does tliis refresh yonr recollection that the Na-
tional Textile AVorkers Union proposed joint action with the United
Textile Workers and that that was turned down, and that the Na-
tional Textile Workers Union was still in existence after the strike
was over?
Miss BiRLAK. The National Textile Workers Union was not in
existence after the strike was over, so far as I know. The decision
wavS made during the strike, prior to the strike, when the strike was
IxMUo- ]n'e]iared, we did propose joint action, which, as you say,
was turned down and then, during the strike, we urged all of our
locals to get into the larger organization and do their best and
thereby to win that strike for the workers, the Textile Workers of
America.
Mr. ^Iatthews. What was the date of that textile strike?
INIiss BuRL.\K. About September of 1934.
Mr. Matthews. How long did the strike last?
Miss BuRLAK. A short period.
]Mr. Matthews. About 3 weeks?
Miss Bfrlak. Around that time.
Mr. IVIatthews. And yet in the Communist of 1934, Mr. Reeves is
still speaking of the National Textile Workers I'nion as a union
that has not been dissolved.
Miss BuRLAK. AVell, Mr. Reeve Avas not ever an official of our
union.
Mr. Matthews. ]\Ir. Reeve says on page 1123 of this issue of the
Communist :
In order to achieve a united fight, the P.irty proposes steps for the merger
of the N. T. W. U. membership into the U. T. W. in places where the masses
adhere to the U. T. W. union.
What is meant by "the Party"?
Miss BuRLAK. I suppose he referred to the Communist Party. I
don't know Avhat else Mr. Reeve might have been referring to.
]Mr. ^Matthews. You were national secretaiy of the National Textile
Workers Union?
^liss BijRi^vK. That is right. That is Mr. RecA'e's opinion.
Mr. ]Mattheavs. You were aware of the fact that the Communist
Paitv had proposed tlie merger of the two organizations, Avere vou
not?'
Miss BuRLAK. Yes. That was their opinion.
]Mr. Mattheavs. You stated a moment ago that the National Textile
Workers had no political affiliation.
]\Iiss BuRLAK. It has no. and had no, political affiliations.
Mr. ^Iaitheavs. ^Y[\y did the Communist Party propose that the
National Textile Workers Union merge into the United Textile
Union ?
^Nliss BuRLAK. The Communist Party is a party of the Avorking
class and ahvays has the interests of the Avorkers at heart, and is
always interested in tuiiting all of the Avorkers, for improved condi-
7614 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
tions. unci for all issues, for peace and other issues that are of
interest to the American people.
Mr. Matthews. Who was the national chairman of the Trade
Union Unity League at the time of its dissolution?
Miss BuRLAK. I don't recall.
Mr. Matthews. It was not William Z. Foster?
Miss BuRLAK. It is quite possible.
Mr. Matthews. Are you not quite sure of it now that your rec-
ollection has been refreshed?
Miss BuRLAK. It is quite possible,
Mr. ^Iatthews. Did you know any officials of the Trade Union
U^iity Leaoue who were not members of the Communist Party?
Miss BuRLAK. I am not j^repared to say here, but am sure that
there were some members who were not members of the Communist
Party. Yes, I do recall one person, James Conroy, of Rhode Island,
lie is dead now, by the way, you don't have to look for him.
Mr. jVIatthews. But your recollection is that the others were mem-
bers of the Connnunist Party ?
Miss BuRLAK. Not all of them.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever describe the National Textile Work-
ers' Union or the other affiliated unions of the Trade Union Unity
League as revolutionary unions?
Miss Burlak. Did I ever describe them? I don't recall.
Mr. Matthews. Were they so generally desci'ibed in the literature
of the Communist Party ?
Miss BuELAK. They were sometimes described so.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Browder, who has testified here, has stated
that they were.
Miss Burlak. I don't know what Mr. Browder testified to.
Mr. Matthews. He said that they were revolutionary unions.
What did you mean by "revolutionary unions" when you so de-
scribed the National Textile Workers Union and the other affiliated
bodies of the Trade Union Unity League?
Miss Burlak. I did not testify here that I described them that way.
Mr. Matthews. You said that they were sometimes described as
such.
Miss Burlak. And you asked me now
Mr. Matthews. And you don't recollect whether you yourself did
or not?
Miss Burlak. That is right.
Mr. Mattheavs. When they were so described by the Communist
Partv in which vou were an outstanding member, what was meant?
Miss Burlak. Well, remember the word "revolution" is a broad
term.
Mr. Matthews. Does the Communist Party use the word "revolu-
tion'" in a sense which reflects its own interpretation of the word, or
in this broad, loose sense?
Miss Burlak. I don't know what you are referring to.
Ml-. Matthews. I ask that the article by Carl Reeve in the Com-
munist of November of 1934 be marked as an exhibit, exhibit No. 1
of Miss Burlak.
Mr. CoHN. I object to it as irrelevant, incompetent, and immaterial,
and not properly identified.
Ml-. Matthews. The witness has identified it as beinc:
UN-AMEKICAX TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7615
Mr. CoiiN. Xo i)n)per foundation liavinjr been laid.
(The article in The Communist of November 1934, by Carl
Reeve, was marked "Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Matthews. What were your subsequent trade-union activities
after the dissohition of the National Textile Workers Union?
Miss BuRT.AK. I didn't carry on any more trade-union activities as
an official of a trade union. I have continued to be active in all labor
activities concerning the textile workers, as a member of the Com-
nnniist Party.
]\Ir. Matthews. You luive been active in trade-union organizations?
Miss BrRLAK. Not in trade-union organizations since the dissohition
of the National Textile Workers Union, I have not been a member of
a trade union.
Mr. Matthews. Were you ever connected with tlie National Coun-
cils of the Unem])loyed?
]\Iiss BuRLAK. I was never an official of the Unemployed Councils.
]Mr. Matthews. Did yon ever work actively in the National Coun-
cils of the Unemployed \
Miss BuRLAK. I helped to organize the hunger march during
Hoover's regime.
]\rr. ^NFatthews. Did you lead the hunger march?
]\riss BuRr.AK. I was one of the leaders from New Enaland.
^fr. Matthews. Did you lead the hunger march of 1931 ?
Miss BrRLAK. I think that that was the one. There were two hunger
marches. I was in one of them.
Mr. Matthews. Did you enter Washington at that time?
Misg BuRLAK. Yes. Mr. Hoover's administration did not treat the
citizens very cordially at that time. They were left on New York
Highway, or New York Avenue, here in Washington.
Mr. ^Iatthews. You mean you did not enter the city?
Miss BuRLAK. I entered later with a delegation that called at the
Capitol.
Ml". Matthews. Were you active in any other hunger marches of the
National Council of the Unemployed?
INIiss BuRLAK. No; that was the only hunger march that I partici-
pated in.
Mr. ^Matthews. Who was the national leader of the Councils of the
Unemployed at that time?
Miss Burlak, Herbert Benjamin.
]Mr. Matthews. Is he a member of the Communist Party?
]Miss Burlak. He is a member of the national committee of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Matthews. Were the National Councils of the Unemployid
conti'olled by the Communist Party?
Miss Pjurlak. No. sir; it was quite a large mass organization.
Mr. ]Matthews. Is it possible for the Communist Party to control
quite a large mass organization, in your experience?
Miss Bt'RLAK. No. sir. The Communist Party members who are
also members of mass organizations make their proposals in these
organizations, and if they are logical — and usually they are logical —
the membership accepts those proposals, and if they are not logical
they are naturally rejected.
94931— 40— vol. 12 27
7616 rX-AIMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Mattheavs. AVhat does the Communist Party cull the oioup of
its own members who are active in a given mass organization (
Miss BuELAK. Individual members of the Comnnmist Party
Mr. ^Matthews. What have they called them in the past '^
Miss BuRLAK. I don't know what you are leferring to.
Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Burlak, you know that you know very
well what a fraction is.
Miss BuBLAK. Perhaps you know more about it than I do.
Mr, Matthews. You know what a fraction is.
Mr. CoHN. I object to this.
The Chairman. Do you know what a fraction is?
Miss Burlak. I do not care to answer any questions of that kind.
You are making statements and you are not asking me questions.
Mr. Matthews. I am asking j-ou if j'ou know.
Miss Burlak. There are no fractions of the Communist Party at the
present time.
The Chairman. Were there ever anv fractions in the Communist
Party ?
Miss Burlak. The individual members of the Communist Party in
mass organizations used to meet together and consult on vaiious
policies, that is true.
The Chairman. As a fraction; is that the common expression?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Was the fraction obligated rigidly to carry out
the instructions of the party in the mass organizations in which the
fractions were formed?
Miss Burlak. I don't know what you mean by that question.
Mr. Matthews. Does Communist Party literature, with which I
presume that you are familiar, so state, that Communist Party frac-
tions in mass organizations are obligated ?
Miss Burlak. Will you produce a constitution of the Communist
Party, please? I am sure that you have one because Mr. Hurley
picked one up in our office in Boston.
Mr. Matthews. Now, will you answer the question, please?
Miss Burlak. I subscribe to the constitution of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Matthews. That is not responsive.
The Chairman. Let me ask Miss Burlak.
Miss Burlak, you stated that there were fractions in mass organiza-
tions that individual Communists belonged to, where the}' met and
discussed policies and plans ; is that right?
Miss Burlak. That is right. It was not any organization to which
they belonged, it was just that these individual members would get
together and discuss certain policies.
Mr. Matthews. Now, the question is, was it obligatory upon the
members of the individual Communists who formed these fractions
to carry out the party's line or the party's orders? Now, you can
answer that question, if you know.
Miss Burlak. The constitution does not say so, and the constitu-
tion
Mr. Matthew^s. As a matter of fact, from what you yourself know,
was that true?
Miss Burlak. From my experience when individual members would
meet, we would discuss certain plans on how to improve work and
rX-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7617
lioAv to inipiove conditions, and we -vvonld come to a common airi'eement.
The Chaikman. That was to carry out the party line and the part}'
policies ?
Miss BuRLAK. A particular plan, a particular plan for that par-
ticular time.
The Chairman. In accordance with the party line, is that right?
Miss Bijrlak. 1 don't know what you mean by the party line.
The Chairman. In accordance Avith the party's program (
Miss BuRL-Ui. In accordance with the decision that was made at
that particuhir meeting, on that particular occasion.
The Chairman. Well, that decision necessarih' would be in accord-
ance with the program of the Communist Party, would it not?
Miss BriiLAK. I'sually, of course.
The Chairman. You would not agree to any plan that would be in
violation of the jjarty's program, would you?
Miss BiRLAK. Xo. sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Matthews. Miss Burlak. do you know John Patnaude?
Miss Burlak. There was such a man in Rhode Island, who once-
joined the party, and became a stool pigeon. I have no use for stool
pigeons.
Mr. Matthews. You do know this alleged stool pigeon?
]\[iss Btklak. I met him once when he came to join the party.
]\Ir. ]SIatthews. Did you ever have any correspondence witli this
alleged stool pigeon ?
Miss Burlak. I think that I wrote him a letter saying that he was
thrown out of the jxirty. I do not recall definitely.
]Mr. Matthews. You were at that time secretary of the Communist
Party in Rhode Island?
Miss Burlak. That is right.
]\rr. Matthews. And that was in what year, do you recall?
Miss BuFLAK. Oh. surely. I was secretary of tlie party of Rhode
Island from the earlv part of 1937 until March of last year, until
March of 1939.
^Ir. Matthews. You wrote this letter in 1938, or do you recall ?
Miss Burlak. I don't recall the exact date.
Mr. Matthews. 1 read you a letter addressed to John Patnaude,
50 Camden Street. Providence, R. I.
Mr. CoTiN. Mav I ask whether he is readinsr from the original?
Miss T^TMfLAK. ^lav I see that before you read it?
Mr. Matthews. Just as soon as I read it you may see it.
This is not the oriirinal.
The CHATR:NrAN. She can say whether or not
M^r. (\»HN. I Avould like to know what he is reading from.
Mr. Matthews (reading) :
Dear :Mr. PvTX.\T-nK: T'lp foUnwingr charges have been brought against you
by mpuihors f)f t\w IMaiM'ip Fraction :
1. That while yc.u .ioined the Communist Party in February of 1987. you
have I'ever made an attempt to pay any dues.
2. That you have j'ttenVd only some five meetincrs altogether.
.S. Tb-Tt in the nast month you have fraternized with tlie Red baiters, in
the N. M. T'. and with aMti-uninn elements in this party.
-t. Th;it vf'U ciinit^d on Ked haitii)«r vourself in the union hall.
5. That vfiu have t.-iken an anti-C. T. O. position.
7618 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The State Committee of your I'arty has set up a special committee of three
people to investigate these charges and hear what you have to say to them.
This committee is composed of people who have nothing to do with the w^ater-
front, so that they can hear the charges, and any defense that you have without
any danger of being influenced in advance.
This committee will hold its meeting Tuesday, January 25, at 8 p. m., at 47
Jefferson Street, second floor.
You are instructed to be there without fail.
You may bring any Comrade or reliable person as witness if you feel these
charges are unfounded.
If you fail to appear we will take it for granted that the charges are correct,
and that you have nothing to say, and will take public action on the case.
Sincerely yours,
Ann Burlak,
Seoretaru, C. P. R. I.
Miss Burlak. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You identified that as the letter?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
Mr. Casey. What was the date?
Mr. Matthews. January 21, 1938.
Miss Burlak. Subsequently we learned that he not only carried on
these activities but was a definite stool pigeon.
Mr. Matthews. U]) to January 21, 1938, the Communist Party
did have fractions, did it not ?
Miss Burlak. Fractions did not exist generally. We referred to
the group of individual members who met together to make sugges-
tions in unions or other organizations, as fractions.
Mr. Matthews. You do state here, the first sentence, that "The
following charges have been brought against you by members of the
Marine Fracticm.""
Miss Burlak. They were members of the party who were also
seamen, happened to be workers on the waterfront.
Mr. Matthews. And a fraction had the power to bring charges?
Miss Burlak. Yes; not execute them.
Mr. Matthews. And try a member of the party who was working
in a given union?
Miss Burlak. Even an individual member of the Communist Party
can bring charges against another member, if they are true, if they
are factual charges, and furthermore, even a nonparty member, any
individual, can bring such charges, if he or she so desires.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Matthews, was there any trial in connection with
this particular case?
Mr. Matthews. That does not appear from the record.
Was there a charge?
Miss Burlak. Mr. Patnaude was expelled.
Mr. Matthews. Did he appear?
Miss Burlak. He did not appear at that meeting.
Mr. Matthews. So you assumed, as you said in your letter
Miss Burlak. The charges were correct, and later we received fur-
ther information that he was a definite stool pigeon and in the pay
of the employers, and he was not only thrown out of the Communist
Party, but he was discredited among his own union members.
Mr. Matthews. Now, you said when the individual members of
the Communist Party who were in a trade union used to meet they
called themselves a fraction. What do they call themselves now?
Miss Burlak. They don't meet as a definite group.
un-a:meri(\\\ propaganda activities 7619
]Mr. Matthews. When five or six Conunimist members are mem-
bers of a union, do they avoid meeting for consultation^
Miss BruLAK. They may meet on an individual basis, that is, one
individual talk to another, but there is no fornuil meeting.
Ml'. Matthews. That was the same way the fraction used to oper-
ate, according to youi' testimony, is it not i
Miss BuRLAK. I said that we liad meetings. I did say that we had
meetings.
Mr. Matthews. Do party members ever meet now for the same pur-
pose?
Miss Buelak. Xot as a group.
Mr. Mattheavs. They did meet as a group before?
JNIiss BuRLAK. Yes.
Mr. ^Matthews. To take formal action?
Miss BuRLAK. Take formal action?
Mr. jNIatthews. Yes.
Miss BuRLAK. I stated — you are putting words into my mouth.
I stated that the}' met. Xo.
Mr. Matthews. What did your letter mean by conveying the
information of a formal action of this party ?
^liss BuRLAK. The group of seven or eight members of the Com-
munist Party who were on the waterfront came as a body to present
these charges to the office of the Conununist Party, against this
individual, Patnaude. They were all convinced that' he was a stool
pigeon, or at least they suspected at that time that he was a stool
pigeon.
Mr. ^Iatthews. When were fractions abolished in the Communist
Party?
Miss Burlak. I don't recall the exact date.
Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the year?
Miss Bfrlak. About 1936, I should say.
Mr. Matthews. Are you sure? This letter is dated 1938, and
you are still speaking of fractions.
Miss Burlak. Perhaps I refer to it as a fraction.
Mr. Matthews. What is your best recollection about the time that
they were abolished ?
Miss BriLAK. About 193G. I may be wrong about that.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Browder testiified that they were abolished in
1938, early in 1938.
Miss Bi'rlak. That is quite possible.
Mr. Matthews. And other witnesses have set still other dates,
and documents introduced, Mr. Chairman, before this committee
show that within the past year the fractions are still in existence
and so recognized by the literature of the Communist Party.
Mr. Cohn. I object to Mr. ^Matthews testifving.
Mr. Matthews. That is in the letter under the distribution of the
Connntniist Party of the Soviet Union where all fractions in the
International Workers' Order and other mass organizations are in-
structed^to disti-ibute the history of the Conununist Party of the
Soviet Union.
Ml-. C(UTX. I object to Mr. Matthews testifying and request that it
all be stricken from the record.
7620 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Bfrlak. That was not a question ; that was a statement, Mr.
Dies. I don't have anything to say on Mr. Matthews' statements
or testimony.
The Chairman. That is from the record, testimony of witnesses
before this committee.
Miss BuRLAK. I don't know that.
The Chairman. Assuming
Miss BuRLAK. I am not assuming anything before this committee.
Mr. Matthews. Have you been active in the work of the Maritime
Union in Boston since you became administrative secretary of the
State of Massachusetts?
Miss Bt RLAK. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a branch of the Communist Party
composed of seamen ?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Where is that branch located ?
Miss Burlak. In Boston.
Mr. Matthews. How many members are there of that branch?
Miss Burlak. It fluctuates. You know seamen travel all over the
sea, and they don't always stay in Boston; so it fluctuates, depending
on how many are in Boston at the particular time.
Mr. Matthews. Have you any approximate idea of the number of
members ?
Miss Burlak. It fluctuates tremendously, in the seamen's union.
Mr. Matthews. In the seamen's unit, I meant.
Miss Burlak. As I say, it fluctuates. Sometimes there is no more
than half a dozen people in Boston, and sometimes there are as many
as 75.
Mr. Matthews. I am not particularly concerned now about whether
they are present in Boston at any given time but how many do you
have enrolled as members of the seamen's unit or branch of the
Communist Party in Boston?
Miss Burlak. To my recollection, there are over ,50 who joined
the Communist Party in Boston, at one time or another.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Al Lannon, or Albert Lannon?
Miss Burlak. I have heard of him.
Mr. Matthews. Is he active in the work of the Xational Maritime
Union ?
Miss Burlak. So far as I know. I don't know the gentleman
very well.
Mr. Matthews. You do know him, though?
Miss Burlak. I have met him.
Mr. Matthews. What is his real name ?
Miss Burlak. I told you I don't know the gentleman. I have
met him.
Mr. Matthews. Don't you know his real name?
Miss Burlak. Al Lannon.
Mr. Matthews. Don't you know that his renl name is Al Vettari ?
Miss Burlak. You seem to know more about this than I do, Mr.
Matthews.
Mr. Matthews. I hope that I know more than you are willing to
state.
Mr. Cohx. I move that that be stricken.
UX-AMEHICAX I'ROPAGAXI>A ACTIVITIES 7621
^Nliss BuRLAK. Are you implying' unythiii"", Mr. Matthews?
I refuse to be insulted, ]Mr. Dies.
Mr. Af.xTTiiPlws. Who is the secretary of the seamen's branch of
the Connnunist Party in Boston^
Miss BuRL.\K. I don't know.
]Mr. M-vrniEws. You are administrative secretary of the party in
^Massachusetts^
Miss BiRLAK. That is ri«>:ht. I don't know all of the individual
members.
Mr. Mattiieavs. Don't you know the functionaries of the various
branches?
Miss BiRLAK. Xot of every individual branch. You see, we have
quite a number of branches in Boston, and we have a city committee
in Boston, wliieli is made u]) of elected delegates from these branches
and I don'l deal with the individual branches, I deal with the of-
ficers of the city connnittee.
Mr. ^[atthews. What are your duties as administrative secretary
of the Connnunist Party in Massachusetts?
Miss BuRL-XK. AVell, I o;et correspondence from the secretaries of
the A-arious sections in New England, on their dues payments, and I
get correspondence on any new recruits, caiTy on correspondence in
coimection with the organizational work of the party.
]\Ir. Matthews. Do you make reports to national headquarters?
Miss BuRLAK. On the organizational work of the party; yes.
Mr. Matthews. What do you include in those reports for national
headquarters?
^liss BuRLAK. There are included, how the party is growing,
where we are growing.
Mr. ]Mattheavs. You report figures of membership?
]\Iiss Burlak. General figures; yes.
3Ir. Matthews. Don't you report the exact number of dues-paying
members for each week?
Miss BuREAK. That is what the national office is interested in.
^Ir. Matthews. You also report the number of new recruits for
each week?
^liss Burlak. For each month, that is right.
]Mr. Matthews. Do you make monthh' or weekly reports?
Miss Burlak. Both.
Mr. ^Iatthews. But for the recruits, you report only monthly?
^fonthly is the testimony.
]Miss Btrlak. Both v.eekly and monthly.
Mr. ]VLatthews. Would you recognize a picture of Al Lannon if you
saw it?
^Nliss Burlak. I may. I met the gentleman once.
Mr. Matthews. Would you identify that picture as that of Al
Lannon?
^liss Burlak. I am not sure. That is not a very clear photo-
graph. I can see that that is Mr. Browder. but I don't know the
others.
Mr. Matthews. You do not recognize that as Al Lamion?
Miss BiRLAK. Not necessarily.
The Chairman, Does it look like him? Is there a resemblance?
^liss Bi'Ri.AK. There may be. I have had some pictu!-es taken of
myself, that I would never recognize.
7g22 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. We have all had that experience.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know that Al Lannon is a member of
the Communist Party?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes; the Daily Worker has stated so many times.
Mr. Matthews. Just as it has in the case of John Schmies, is
that correct?
Miss Burlak. I don't recall in the case of John Schmies. John
Schmies, so far as I have seen, has not been in the columns of the
Daily Worker for many years, not since I first met him.
Mr. Matthews. When did 5^ou last see ^1 Lannon?
Miss Burlak. Some time in New York. I don't remember just
where.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen him in Boston?
Miss Burlak. No ; I haven't.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Adrian Duffy?
Miss Burlak. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You never heard of Adi'ian Duffy?
Miss Burlak. No, sir; I never heard of him.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Joe Jackson, alias Joe Stonewall
Jackson ?
Miss Burlak. I never heard of him. I have heard of Stonewall
Jackson in my history boofe.
Mr. IMatthews. How lono- have vou known Mr. Frankfeld?
jNIiss BuRLAii. I have known him for a long time. I have known
him since 1929.
Mr. Matthews. Since you joined the Communist Party?
Miss Burlak. Yes. When I went to Scranton, that is where I first
met Mr. Frankfeld; he was then an organizer for the Communist
Party there.
Mr. Matthews. Under what other names have vou known ]Mr.
Frankfeld?
Miss Burlak. I haven't known him under any other names.
Mr. Matthews. Have you not ever known Mr. Frankfeld under
the name of Carl Franklin?
^liss Burlak. No, sir; I have alwavs known him as Phil Frank-
feld.
Mr. JVIatthews. Have you ever known him under the name of
Joe West ? _ ■
Miss Burlak. No, sir. Mr. Frankfeld does not change his name.
Mr. Matthews. You do know that manv other Communist Party
members have a party name as well as a real name, do you not?
Miss Burlak. Some of them do if it is a question of jeopardizing
their jobs.
Mr. Matthews. You know that Mr. Browder has used other names,
do you ?
Miss Burlak. So I have read in the newspapers, when it was also
a question of endangering his life.
Mr. Matthews. You know that Mr. William Weiner used another
name than his own?
Miss Burlak. I don't know, I have read some such thing in a
newspaper.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Where did you first know Mr. Frankfeld, in
Scranton ?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7623
jNIr. Matthews. And subsequent to that, where have you known
him ?
Miss BuRLAK. After that I did not meet him again until about
1935: that was in 192t) that I said I met him in Scranton, and after
that I did not see him again until about 1935, that was in New
York City.
Mr. Matthews. Has Mr. Frankfeld ever told you about the activi-
ties of the Connnunist Party on the Avater front in Boston?
Miss BuRL.\K. I will let Mr. Frankfeld speak for himself.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Frankfeld has declined to do that and since
you are from the same office, I am asking you the question.
Has Mr. Frankfeld ever discussed with you the activities of the
Communist Party on the water front?
Miss BuRLAK. Not necessarily.
Mr. Matthews. Well, has he ever discussed them with you?
Miss BuRLAK. Not that I recall. I was not particularly responsible
for the water front. ]\Iy specialty was textile workers. You see, I
am a textile M'orker myself, and I went to work in the mills at 14.
]Mr. ]\Iatthews. You have not been a textile worker since 1929?
Miss BuRLAK. I worked for a brief period after that, for a few
months at a time, after that, but never consistently after that.
Mr. ^Matthews. Do you know George Powers?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever know him under the name of M. H.
Powers ^
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. "When he used the name of M. H. Powers, was that
the name under which he was generally known in the Communist
Party ?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes; publicly, too.
Mr. Matthews. Publicly also?
]Miss BuRLAK. Yes .
Mr. IMatthews. He gave that as his name ?
]\Iiss Btjrlak. That is right. That is when I first met him,
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Powers has testified here that he did not, that
he recalled, that that was a newspaper accident, that he was ever
known as M. H. Powers.
Mr. Cohx. I object to Mv. Matthews testifying. The record speaks
for itself, INIr. Chairman.
Mr. Matthews. You knew Mr. Powers in Georgia, did yon not?
Miss BuRLAK. I certainly did. We were arrested together — and
by tlie way
The CiiAiR:\rAX. Let us have order.
Miss BuRLAK. We were arrested for a very good cause. We tried
to organize the Negroes and white in Georgia and, according to the
Constitution, all men are equal, but according to Southern Repre-
sentatives here they do not i-ecognize Negroes as human beings.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever known George Powers under any
other name tlian George Powers, or M. H. Powers?
Miss Bfrlak. No, sir,
■Nfr. ^Iattiiews. Are you interested, among other things, in your
duties as administrative secretary of the Communist Party, in the
distribution of the history of the Connnunist Party of tlie Soviet
Union ?
7624 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss BuRLAK. Just as I am interested in the distribution of the
history of the American Kevohition and Irish rebellion, and all his-
tories of working people.
Mr. Matthews. You say that you are interested in the distribution
of the history of the American Revolution. Does the Communist
Party have a textbook on that particular subject ?
Miss BuRLAK. No; there are plentj' of good writers on the Amer-
ican history.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do you know a book entitled ''The First American
Revolution." by Jack Hardy?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. You have used that in your work?
Miss BuRLAK. I have read it.
Mr. Matthews. You know who Jack Hardy is, don't you?
Miss BuELAK. I don't know that I have ever met the gentleman.
Mr. Matthews. You know that Jack Hardy is not his real name?
]\Iiss BuRLAK. I don't know anything about Mr. Hardy except that
I read his book.
Mr. Matthews. You have read his book?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
]\rr. ^Matthews. Has he written other books that have been used in
the Communist Part}'?
Miss BuRLAK. As I recall, he wrote a book pertaining to labor and
textiles, or labor and silk, or one of those. It was a series for the
Labor Researcli Association.
i\Ir. Matthews. You have heard in party circles that Jack Hardy
is a teacher in New York schools, have you not?
Miss BuRLAK. I have not heard anything of the kind.
iNIr. Mattheavs. And that in New York schools he teaches under
the name of Dale Zysman?
Miss BuRLAK. I don't know Mr. Hardy, or anything about him.
Mr. Matthews. You know his book?
Miss Bi'RLAK. I know his book — certainly: and I know books of
many peo]:)le.
Mr. Matthews. Now, with reference to the History of the Com-
munist Party of the Soviet Union, which you say that you have })een
interested in distributing, how many copies has the party in Massa-
chusetts distributed ?
Miss BuRLAK. Over 2,000 copies.
Mr. Mattheavs. What is the purpose of the distribution of the
History of the Communist Party of the Soviet I'nion to your members
and as many of the Connnunist Party sympathizers as will buy it and
read it? '
Miss Bfrlak. Well, we feel that a study of the history of the labor
movement in any country in the world is of interest to any intelligent
person, and we make it a special ]3oint to see that our membership read
the History of the Comnumist Party in the Soviet Union, of the
different activities in the la])or movement of Germany and of England
and Ireland, and of the TTnited States.
Mr. Matthews. You intend to say that this History of the Com-
munist Party of thie Soviet Union is just another labor history?
Miss Bi'RLAK. I tliink it is a much better history book than many I
have read.
rX-AMKRTCAX I'liOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7625
Mr. Matthfavs. Doesn't the preface state that this is tlie outstanding
piece of Marxist literature of this <2:eneration?
Miss l-JiKLAK. T tliink so.
Mr. ]\Iattiik\vs. Then it is not just another history of the hxbor
movement.
I want to know if you were tryiiia' to describe it as just another
liistory by yoiu' reference.
Miss Briu.AK. I wouhl say it is a — I thiidc it is a nmcli better history.
Mr. Mattijkws. Will you identify that as a copy of the History of
the Connniniist Party of the Soviet Union?
Miss Biu'lak. Yes.
Mr. MArrHEWS. I will ask that this be marked as an exhibit.
(The book History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
was marked "Exhibit No. 2.")
]Miss Bi'KLAK. Now, may I ask you a question?
Mr. Matthews. No.
Miss BiRi^AK. How about gettino; back to the United States — as to
my activities?
Mr. Matthews. Your activities inchide the distribution of the His-
tory of the Conununist Party of the Soviet Union, you have stated.
Miss BiRLAK. Yes. I was one of those and it was distributed
throughout the party.
^Nlr. Matthews. Have you ever described the Connnunist Party of
the Soviet Union as the model party for Conniuniists the world over?
Miss BuRLAK. I think it is.
Mr. Mattheavs. You think that it is?
Miss BuRLAK. I think it is.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. That is the reason why you distribute or help to
distribute this book, is it not?
Mr. CoHN. She has already stated the reason.
The Chairman. He can ask her whether that is one of the reasons.
Is that one of the reasons that
Miss Burlak. One of the reasons is that we want our member-
sliip to study the History of the Connnunist Party in the Soviet
Union and learn from it as well as studying the history of our own
American KevoJution and learning from it.
The Chairman. You regard the Communist Partv and the Soviet
Union as the ideal party, the ideal government^
Miss Bi RLAK. I think that they have done a very good job.
The Chairman. I believe that you stated a moment ago. that you
stated that that is 3'our ideal of where they should have a
govenunent (
Miss Bi'iiLAK. We were not discussing government. We were dis-
cussing the party, and I think that the Communist Party of the
Soviet Union is a good party, the model party.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask a questicm right there.
Miss Burlak, have you also distributed to your Connnimist mem-
bers books on the American Revolution?
Miss Bi RLAK. Sure.
]Mr. Thomas. What ones, for instance?
Miss Burlak. ^^'ell, Mr. Hardy's book, for que.
Mr. Matthews. Was that ]Hiblished by International Publishers?
Miss Burlak. I do not recall. It mav have been.
7626 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Do you know that he is a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Miss BuRLAK. I don't know anything of the kind. We have dis-
tributed Beard's book on American history.
Mr. Thomas. What was the title of that book?
Miss BuRLAK. I don't recall for the moment.
The Chairman. How many copies did you distribute of that
book ?
Miss BuRLAK. Well, that is in every public library, and our
members
The Chairman. I am not asking you that. You say that you dis-
tributed it. I am asking you how many copies you distributed ?
Miss BuRLAK. I didn't, personally. That may have been a slip of
the tongue. I didn't personally distribute the copies because it is in
all of the libraries.
The Chairman. Then your statement that you distributed Beard's
book is not correct.
Mr. Cohn. She was not speaking for herself.
The Chairman. The Communist Party, do you know if the Com-
munist Party distributed Beard's book?
Miss BuRLAK. We may have in our classes.
The Chairman. It is not a question of "may have."
Miss Burlak. We used the book in our classes.
The Chairman. That is quite different using the book in your
classes and distributing the book. Have you ever distributed any
book like you distributed the History of the Communist Party?
Miss BuRLAK. Sure; we sell many of them in the various book
shops that carry our books.
Mr. Thomas. We are referrino; to American historv.
Miss BuRLAK. American history books.
The Chairman. What other book have you distributed?
Miss BuRLAK. I already stated to you, in our book shops we sell
Beard's book as well as other books.
]\Ir. Thomas. Did you sell this particular book?
Miss BuRLAK. This particular book is sold in the book shops ; yes,
sir.
Mr. Thomas. But you gave that away to 2.000 ]:)eo]ile ?
Miss BuRLAK. Oh no; vou misunderstood. We sold them; yes.
Mr. Thomas. What did you get for them?
Miss BuRLAK. Forty cents, which was the cost price of prhiting
the book, and that is why our members were able to buy this book.
Mr. Thomas. Can you recall any book on American history that
you sold to 2,000 people?
Miss BuRLAK. Those books are so expensive
Mr. Thomas. I asked you a question.
Miss BuRLAK. I am giving you an answer.
Mr. Thomas. Can you recall any book on American history that
3^ou sold to 2,000 people?
Miss Burlak. Xo; not 2,000 copies, because we get them in the
public libraries.
Mr. Thomas. That is the answer.
The Chairman. Any questions, gentlemen? Any further ques-
tions ?
UX-AMERICAX PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7527
I Avant to ask you this qnostioii. Do you kee]) a lorord of the
members of the C'oiuiuuuist Pnity of the State of Massachusetts!'
Miss BuRLAK. No. sir: \ve haven't had any list of members, any
recoi'd of members since li)37.
Tlie C'nAHf.MAX. Prior to 1987 you kept a record?
^liss Bi'KLAK. There were such lists.
The CHAiRaiAN. But since 1937 there is no list?
^liss BfHi.AK. No. sir: there is no written list anywhere.
The CiiATKMAN. Of the members of the Connnunist l*arty?
Miss BlRLAK. No.
The CiiAiRMAX. "Who issues the membership book to the new
member ?
^Nliss BlRLAK. The brandies do.
The Chairman. The branches do?
Miss Bfrlak. Yes.
The Chairman. Is any record kei:)t of that?
Miss BuRLAK. Only the figures.
The Chairman. Only the total number. Do you keep the number
of the book ?
Miss BuRLAK. Those are kept by the branches.
The Chairman. The ])arty number ',
Miss BuRLAK. Pardon?
The Chair:man. Each book has a number.
Miss BuRLAK. That is rio:ht.
The Chairman. And the branch president keeps the number?
Miss BuRLAK. Usually. It is not obligatory but they usually do.
The Chairman. Now. who keeps the record of the dues payinent,
the individual dues payinent?
Miss Bfrlak. That is also kept in the local branches. You see our
branches are not organized on very large numbers, and the secretary
of the local branch can remember quite well who the members of
the branch are, and who pay dues.
The Chairman. Now. clo the secretaries or presidents of local
branches in turn make any report to the State headquarters of the
Communist Party!'
Miss BuKLAK. They generally make a report to the section. We
have several, well, would you say, groupings, we have the branch,
we have the section, and then we have the district.
The Chairman. They make a report to the section of the new
members, and the dues payment?
Miss BuRLAK. That is right.
Tlie Chairman. And then the section?
Miss Bfrlak. They make the report to me.
The CiiAiR.AiAN. To you as the administrative secretary?
]Miss Bfrlak. That is right.
The CHAiR:srAN. But when j'ou get the report, it does not have the
names of anyone ?
Miss Bfrlak. No. sir. It has, for instance, New Bedford, paid
for so many dues this week, and New Bedford has several branches,
or let us say Boston paid so many dues for the week.
The Chairman. Does it also have the fact that so many new mem-
bers were recruited ?
Miss Bfrlak. That is correct.
7628 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman, How many members in the party do yon have in
the State of Massachusetts? I believe someone testified
Miss BuRLAK. Between 1,500 and 1,600.
The Chairman. Between 1,500 and 1,600?
Miss BuRLAK. That is for the New England district. That includes
Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, and Rhode Island.
The Chairman. And about a thousand members in Massachusetts?
Miss BuRLAK. Roughly.
The Chairman. Roughly a thousand persons?
Miss BuRLAK. Yes.
The Chairman. Is that a decline or an increase?
Miss BuRLAK. That is an increase. We have had a steady increase
for the last number of years.
The Chairman. Would you give some idea of the increase? Wliat
was it, say, 6 months ago?
Miss BuBLAK. Well, a year ago it was less than 1.500. Just what
the increase was, just what the figure was 6 months ago, I don't
j-ecall, offliand.
The Chairman. Approximately, though, you are certain that it
lias been an increase since 6 months ago of about how many new
members, would you say?
Mis BuRLAK. It would have to be a rough guess.
The Chairman. I understand.
Miss BuRLAK. In the 6-month period, I think about 300 members
or so.
The Chairman. About 300 members or so ?
Miss Bi RLAK. Yes.
The Chairman. That includes people of all occupations ?
Miss BuRLAK. That is right.
The Chairman. Skilled workers, unskilled workers?
Miss Burlak. That is right.
The Chairman. People employed in various industries?
Miss Burlak. That is correct. — —
The Chairman. In that section ?
Miss Burlak. Yes.
The Chairman. And includes different nationalities?
Miss Burlak. Anybody can join the Conmnmist Party who agrees
with its principles.
The Chairman. And there is no record anywhere of who those 1,500
members are ?
Miss Burlak. I don't have any such record.
The Chairman. Do j^ou know of any record ?
Miss Burlak. There is no record M'ith all of those members there.
There may be some small records in each branch. I don't know that,
Mr. Casfa'. Is Connecticut in the New England district?
Miss Burlak. No.
Mr. Casey. What district is Connecticut in?
Miss Burlak. They have a State organization of their own.
Mr. Casey. Separate and distinct?
Miss Burlak. That is right.
The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned subject to the
call of the chairman.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
INVESTIGATIOX OF UN-AMETUCAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, APFIL 4, 1940
House of Representatives.
Subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Actimties.
Washington, D. C.
The coniiuittee met at 3 p. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) pre-
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The connnittee is sittinc; as a subcommittee composed of the chair-
man. ^Ir. Thomas, and Mr. Casey. Tlie committee will ^it as a subcom-
mittee until there is a quorum present.
Captain Rubley, will you please come forward?
I may say that Captain Rubley is attendino; the hearino; volun-
tarily, in obedience to a telejjraphic request. The conuuittee agreed
to hear him promptly on his arrival, as I understand he is on his
way to Alaska, and it is of great importance to him to get away this
afternoon.
Y(Hi have been served with a subpena, Captain?
Captain Rubley. Yes. 3ir.
The Chairman. Raise your right hand. You S(^lemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Cajjtain Rubley. I do.
The Chairman. All. right Mi'. Lynch.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL J. RUBLEY, CAPTAIN. MEDICAL CORPS,
MICHIGAN NATIONAL GUARD
Mr. Lynch. Captain Rubley, will you give us your full name for
the record, please?
Captain Rcbley. Capt. Samuel J. Rubley.
]Mr. Lynch. Your address?
Captain Rubley. Logansport, Ind.
Mr. Lynch. Your occupation?
Cai)tain Runi ey. Physician and surgeon.
Mr. Lynch. Practicing where?
Captain Rubiey. At Logansport, Ind.
Mr. Lynch. I)<» you hold any official position?
Cai:)tain Rrni ey. Xo, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Where were you stationed or located before you moved
to Logans}K)rt, Ind.?
Captain Rubley. Detroit.
Mr. Lynch. How long were you in Detroit?
7629
7630 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Captain Rubley. Six years.
Mr. Lynch. And when did you move from Detroit to Logansport?
Captain Rubley. Latter part of February 1939.
Mr. Lynch. Do you hold any official po,sition with the Government
at this time?
Captain Rubley. Yes. I am still a captain.
Mr. Lynch. Captain of what?
Captain Rubley. Of the Medical Corps, unassigned.
Mr. Lynch. What is that?
Captain Rubley. Unassigned.
Mr. Lynch. United State.s Army?
Captain Rubley. National Guard.
:\Ir. Lynch. Out of what State?
Captain Rubley. Michigan.
Mr. Lynch. And for how long have you held that commission?
Captain Rubley. May I refer to my notes?
INIr. Lynch. Certainly.
Captain Rubley. June 18, 1930.
Mr. Lynch. And are you in private medical practice at this time?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. And I understand you are going away from Logans-
port ?
Captain Rubley. We are all packed now ; yevS, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Where are you going?
Captain Rubley. Juneau, Alaska.
Mr. Lynch. To engage in private practice?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. For yourself, or is it a Government position?
Captain Rubley. With a clinic.
Mr. Lynch. What clinic?
Captain Rubley. Juneau Surgical and INIedical Clinic.
INIr. Lynch. Is that supported by the Government?
Captain Rubley. Not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know Mr. Pelley?
Captain Rubley. No; I have never met him.
Mr. Lynch. Never met him?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever have any correspondence with him?
Ca])tain Rubley. Yes, sir ; I have had considerable correspondence
with him 6 years ago or 7 years ago.
Mr. Lynch. And do you know Mr. Summerville, Robert C. Sum-
merville ?
Captain Rubley. No ; I never met him.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever have any correspondence with him?
Captain Rubley. Yes; I think perhaps I did.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know Mr. Paul A. Toal ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Do you know who he is?
Captain Rltbley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Were you a member of the Silver Legion of America ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you have any connection with it?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
1 X-A.AIKRICAX I'KOl'AGANDA A("TIVITIES 7631
Mr. I^TXCii. Are you a niciubor of the Ku Kliix Klan of Detroit
or Michigan (
Captain Kihley. No, sii-.
Mr. Lynch. Are 3'oii a member of any brancli of the Ku Khix Khm?
Captain Kubley. Xo, sir; never have been.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever have anvthin"; to do with the member-
ship or organization of the Ku Khix Klan^
Captain Kubley. No. sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you advocate membership in it ^
Captain Rubley. No. sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you advocate membership in the Silver Legion? •
Caj^tain Rubley. I did not understand that.
]Mr. Ly'nch. Did you advocate membership in the Silver Legion?
Captain Rubley, Did I advocate it ? I tried to get no one to join
it ; no. sir.
Mr. Ly'nch. Did you try to get other persons to get members for
this legion?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever discuss the question of the growth of the
Klan or the Silver Legion?
Ca})tain Rubley'. Well, I perhaps have discussed the growth of
them.
]SIr. Ly'nch. "Were you interested in the growth of them ?
Captain Rubley. At one time I was interested in it merely through
correspondence.
Mr. Lynch. Did you do anything other than correspond about it?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
]Mr. Lynch. I will shoAv you a letter, dated October 20, 1933, pur-
porting to be signed by Capt. S. J. Rubley, and I will ask you if
that is vour signature?
(Handing letter to Captain Rubley.)
Captain Rubley'. (No answer.)
Mr, Lynch. Can you tell us Avhether that is your signature, Cap-
tain?
Captain Rubley, I would say that it was.
Mr. Lynch, You would say that you wrote that letter to Mr.
Summerville i
Captain Rubley. It is on the stationery similar to that that I had
at that time,
Mr. Ly'nch. And it appears to be your signature?
Captain Rubley'. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. And you will say it is your signature, won't you?
Captain Rubley, Yes.
Mr, Lynch, All right, I offer this for the record, Mr, Chairman.
The Chairman, It will be received and made a part of the record.
(The letter referred to by Mr. Lynch is made a part of the record.)
Mr. Lynch. One of the things it says in this letter is :
Tho Klan is growlnfr with nnliolievable rapidity. Inside of a month I predict
a mciubersliip of 50,0(X). I am \\orking very closely with them.
Were you working closely with them or not. Captain?
Captain Rubley. No; I wasn't working closely with them,
Mr, Lyn( h. What did vou mean by the statement : "I am workino;
closely with them"?
94931 — iO — vol. ] 2 28
7632 im-AMEKiCAN propaganda activities
Captain Rubley. That is back so far it is hazy in my mind what
I did mean. As I recall, there wasn't — I didn't do anything with
them. They came to my office trying to get me to join them.
Mr. Lynch. Who came to your office trying to get you to join
them ?
Captain Rubley. I can't remember their names — it is so far back.
Mr. Lynch. You mean people would just come in to you and start
talking to you without you knowing who they were ?
Captain Rubley. They were putting the heat on everyone at that
time.
Mr. Lynch. Were they putting the heat on you?
Captain Rubley. Yes; they were putting the heat on everyone at
that time.
Mr. Lynch. Were they putting the heat on you ?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Didn't you know who they were?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Did you make any inquiries to ascertain who they
were ?
Captain Rubley. Well, I found out they w^ere Klansmen, or they
said they were.
Mr. Lynch. How many would come at a time to see you?
Captain Rubley. (Tenerally two.
Mr. Lynch. Did they threaten you ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. What do you mean by ''putting the heat" on you? To
make you join?
Captain Rubley. Well, they were out on a membership drive.
That is all — that is all I mean.
Mr. Lynch. You were not forced to send this letter to Mr. Summer-
ville, were you ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Then you say, "I wish it was so you could send an
organizer here to work full time."
Captain Rubley. Yes. At that time things in Detroit were bad.
There was no anticomnuniistic activities going on there. There was
no organization combating connnunism at that time.
Mr. Lynch. What organization did you want built up to combat it?
The Klan or the Silver Legion ?
Captain Ri^bley. At that time I was interested in the Silver Legion.
Mr. Lynch. Were you also interested in the Klan ?
Captain Rubley. No.
INIr. Lynch. You wanted an organizer for the Silver Legion sent
out there?
Captain Rubley. That is what I had reference to at that time.
Mr. Lynch. And what would an organizer of the Silver Legion do?
Captain Rubley. I don't know what he Vv'ould do if he came there.
It became a little too fantastic for me. and I soon dropped out of all
coii-espondence with them.
Mr. Lynch. Was an organizer ever sent?
Captain Rubley. Not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever talk to any organizer?
Cui)tain Rubley. No, sir.
JNIr. Lynch. You say your time is so taken up —
UN-AMERICAN l'ROrA<JANr)A ACTIVITIES 7633
I (1(» not have tiuu' tn avl moiv than 4 hours" slet'i) a night and have had to
itive up one dass in equitation, but Imiie to have "lO Khinsmen mounted in 2
weeks" time.
Had you made any arranovnients about the niouutino- of Klansinen
on lujrses?
Captain Riijley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Yon do ride horseback, do you not?
Captain Kibley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lyntii. Freijnently?
Cai^tain Rubley. I used to when I was in the cavah-y — 5 years,
Mr. Lynch. And were yon ridino- m the fall of 1933?
CajMain Rubley. Yes.
'Mr. Lynch. And did you interest others in taking- up horseback
ridin<r?
Cai)tain Rubley. I had three or four classes at that time. I was
teachin<i' ecjuitation in classes.
Mr. Lynch. Lender what auspices?
Cajitain Rubley. Private.
]\Ir. Lynch. Yoih' own classes?
Captain Ribley. Private riding academies — a private stable.
Mr. Lynch. In Detroit ?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
^Ir. Lynch. And how many members did you have in your class?
Cai:)tain Rubley. The}' would range all the way from 5 to 10 or 15.
Mr. Lynch. And they were grown people ?
Captain Rubley. No; not necessarily. I had one class of ladies
from the telephone department. I had one class of boys from the
"Western Union. I had a cla.ss of, private class of, Reserve officers
and their wives.
Mr. Lynch. How many did you have altogether in your classes?
Captain Rubley. I could not say.
]Mr. Lynch. AVell, give us an approximate number?
Ca]?tain Rubley. In all classes?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Ca])tain Rubley. At all times?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Cai)tain Rubley. Maybe 30.
^Ir. Lynch. You then say : "They are preparing seriously to de-
fend their homes and their country." What did you mean by that?
Captain Rubley. Well, that is the report that these Klan organizers
gave me when they would come in to talk to me.
Mr. Lynch. And you were passing that mformation on to Mr.
Sunnnerville ?
Captain Rubley. Yes: I told him that.
Mr. Lynch. Where did you meet Mr. Smnmerville ?
Captain Rubley. I never met him.
]\Ir. Lynch. Who introduced you to him? Or how did you know
where to contact him or how did you contact him?
Captain Rubley. I had a — when I was in school I lived with a man,
or roomed with a man. who introduced me by mail to Mr. Siimmerville.
Mr. Lynch. And how long ago was that?
Captain Rubley. That I lived with this man — that I was associated
with him ?
7634 UN-AMERICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. Yes; that this occurred — when you were introduced to
Summerville by mail?
Captain Rubley. In 1933.
Mr. Lynch. The same year?
Captain Rubley. Yes; the same year.
Mr. Lynch. And you knew the movement he was interested in ?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Who was the friend that introduced you by mail ?
Captain Rubley. Lawrence Brown.
Mr. Lynch. What is his occupation or position?
Captain Rubley. He is now — you mean now?
Mr. Lynch. Yes; or then — both.
Captain Rubley. Then, I don't know what he was doing. Not
nuich of anythino; as I recall. Now he is with Pelley Publications.
Mr. Casey. Who is with Pelley Publications?
Captain Rubley. Lawrence Brown,
Mr. Lynch. Lawrence Brown introduced him to Summerville.
Then you say: 'T have just talked with Dr. Weber, and we have
decided to leave our families as far from Detroit as we can."
Captain Rubley. I can't — I have been racking my brain on the way
in here ; I cannot recall who this "Dr. Weber" is.
Mr. Lynch. Then yoii say in the same sentence : "I may be excep-
tionally bloodthirsty, but I feel that the last winter's snow will be
tinged scarlet in the streets of Detroit." What did you mean by that?
Captain Rubley. Well, I took the alarmist viewpoint there, and I
listened too much to other alarmists, and I just had my time dated
wrong, that is all.
Mr. Lynch. What "time dated wrong"? What do you mean by
your "time dated wrong"?
Captain Rubley. Let me put it this way: I became overalarmecl
about the situation.
Mr. Lynch. What situation?
Captain Rubley. The communistic situation there.
Mr. Lynch. Did you think there was going to be an open revolution
in the city of Detroit before the winter of 1933 was over?
Captain Rubley. According to the reports that I heard and the
things that were written to me.
Mr. Lynch. And who would give you these reports ?
Captain Rubley. I got them from Summerville — I got them from
Lawrence Brown.
Mr. Lynch. Summerville wasn't giving you reports about Detroit,
was he?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Where was Summerville when you were writing him in
the fall of 1933?
Captain Rubley. I think he was in Asheville.
Mr. Lynch. You were getting your reports from somebody else in
Detroit, weren't you, besides Brown?
Captain Rubley. No. Brown wasn't there in Detroit.
Mr. Lynch. Who Avere you getting your rejiorts from then ?
Captain Rubley. I wasn't getting any reports from anyone in
Detroit. It was just what I observed. I had lived in a small com-
nuniity all my life and when I went to Detroit to take special training-
the situation there somewhat alarmed me.
L'N-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7635
Mr. Lynch. How lono; had yon been in Detroit in October 1933
Avhen yon were writin<2: these letters^
Captain Rubify. One month.
Mr. Lynch. Where had yon formerly resided?
Cajnaiii RriuEY. ^Nlonioe, Midi.
Mr. Lynch. How far is that from Detroit?
Captain Rubley. Forty miles.
Mr. Lynch. And give us your age. Captain, so we can have it for the
record ^
Captain Rubley. Now?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Captain Rubij:y. I will be 45.
Mr. Casey. Mr. Lynch, at this point I would like to ask a question.
If I am asking a question you have already asked, I Avish you would
stop me. You say that you took your alarmist viewpoint from Sum-
merville and Brown ?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Casey. And neither of them were in Detroit?
Captain Rubley. No,
Mr. Casey. Did you subscribe to the Pelley Publications?
Captain Rubley. No. I never subscribed to them.
Mr. Casey. "Was Brown with Pelley Publications at that time?
Captain Rubley. No: he was not.
Mr. Casey. Was he affiliated in any way with Mr. Pelley?
Captain Rubley. I think he was.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever meet Mr. Pelley ?
Caj^tain Rubley. No; I never did.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever correspond with ^Ir. Pelley?
Captain Rubley. I did.
Mr. Casey. When did you correspond with him?
Captain Rubley. At the same time for 2 or 3 months there in 1933.
Mr. Casey. How many times did you write to him?
Captain Rubley. Oh, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Casey. In the course of 2 or 3 months. You don't know how
many times vou wrote. Would it be a half a dozen times?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir. I would say that, and maybe more.
Mr. Casey. Now, who started that correspondence? You or Mr.
Pelley?
Captain Rubley. I cannot recall. Perhaps I did upon the advice of
Lawrence Brown. I don't know whether I corresponded first with
Robert Summerville or with Mr. Pelley.
Mr. Casey. What I am trying to find out is how you became affiliated
with the alarmist viewpoint.
Captain Rubley. Well, that is rather hard to say, but when you get
lettei's from a pereon that you have known for some time, as I had
known Mr. Brown — I had known him for 25 years, I would say. We
had been in school together; we were in college together, although he
was a little bit ahead of me. And we had corresponded otf and on
throughout those 25 years and were close friends, so naturally I took
his viewpoint.
Mr. Casey. Well, our conmiittee. you see, has been trying to ]ioint
out the great danger of one minority group against another and the
resultant inflaming of the minds of the people, and you sort of seem
to exemplify that.
7636 un-a:\ikricax tropagaxda activities
Captain Rubley. I became more or less inflamed for a while, but it
became a little too fantastic and it died a natural death.
Mr. Casey. And you now know, of course, that the things that men
like Pelley and Brown preached at that time were things without
substance and never did come true ?
Captain Rubley. That is right.
Mr. Lyxch. Captain Rubley, you are not a Catholic, are you?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr, Lynch. You say in this letter : "There is no place" — after you
mentioned the fact that you are establishing a clinic — ""that there is
no i^lace''
Captain Rubley. What is that, again ?
Mr. Lynch. You mentioned in this letter that you had been estab-
lishing a clinic — ear, eye. nose, and throat clinic
Captain Rl^bley. No; I have no clinic.
Mr. Lynch. No ; I will read it to you.
Captain Rubley. All right; do that, please.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
Jnst at the particular time I am opening a moderate-priced eye, ear, nose, and
throat clinic.
Captain Rubley. Oh, I beg your pardon. I retract that. I did
have a low-priced clinic there for a short time.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
For the good American citizen that is caught in the I'ollers, high taxes and low
income, who are lighting to keep their homes and to hold on to the slanting foot-
hold they have already gained. There is no place thesf deserving people can get
their work d()ne at reasonable prices. They cannot go to the charity clinics
unless they are Catholics and Jews, and there are very few of this type out here.
Was it true that Pelley and Summerville were interested and were
directing tlieir efforts against the Catholics and the Jews?
Captain Rubley. Not that I know of. I don't know that he was
against the Catholics; no.
Mr. Lynch. You are sure that he was?
Captain Rubley. No ; I am not sure that he was.
Mr. Lynch. Was there ever any conversation about it or talk or
further correspondence ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Sir ?
Captain Rubley. I don't know what you are asking about.
Mr. Lynch. He was against Jews, wasn't he ?
Ca]>tain Rubley. Oh, he is the No. 1 Jew liaiter, I would say.
Mr. Lynch. All right, is it true that only the Catholics or Jews
could get hospitalization in Detroit at that time?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Then that was an error on your part?
Captain Rubley. That was an error on my part. I found out
afterward when I got to know the city better
Mr. Lynch. AVas it an error or a deliberate misstatement?
Captain Rubley. It was an error.
Mr. Lynch. How long had von been practicing there in Detroit
at that time, in October 1933 ?
Captain Rubley. One month. I went there in September.
Mr. Lynch. You Avere connected witli a hospital there?
rX-AMERK'AX rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7637
Captain Ki'hi.f.y. Yos. sir.
Mr. T.YXcii. What lu)s])ital?
Captain Rubley. City Physician's office.
]\Ir. l.YXcii. And didn't yon know that anyone conld <>et ])ospitaliza-
tion ^ Didn't you know they did not have to be a Catholic or a Jew
before they could <i;et hospitalization?
Captain Rup.ley. That was somewhat of an exagoeration. Any-
one can get assistance there that needs it.
Mr. Lvxcii. Dill you ever discuss this matter with anyone else
besides Mr. Sunnnerville or Mr. Pelley ?
Captain Kubley. Discuss it with anyone? ,,,
]Mr. Lyxch. Yes: your friends in Detroit and acquaintances in
Detroit?
Captain Rueley. Undoubtedly I did.
Mr. Lyxch. How many people would you say that you discussed
this idea Avith ?
Captain Rubley. Not over three or four.
Mr. Lyxch. Not over that many?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Casey. What "idea" do you refer to?
Mr. Lyxch. The idea of the fact that there would have to be, I
l^resume, a revolution.
Mr. Casey. 1 would like to ask him: From whom did you get the
information that you based the statement on tliat no one but Catholics
or Jews cotdd get hospital treatment.
Captain Rubley. As I said, that was my first observation. You
see this was Avritten shortly after I Avent to Detroit and it is a mistake.
It Avas a misstatement at that time — not intentional.
Mr. Casey. Well, I am trying to find out Avho misled you or what
misled you.
Captain Rubley. Well. I cannot ansAA'er that. I don't knoAv Avhere
1 got that idea. But it's not — I put it doAvn as an intentional error.
Mr. Casey. It has rather vicious consequences in that it lines up
Americans of various religions against each other. It is inflammatory
and prejudicial.
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. Having those vicious consequences I Avould like to have
you think as hard as you can in order to help the committee find out
Avhere you got that idea. Was it from Pelley?
Captain Rubley. Xo. Pelley did not kiioAv anything about the
situation there in Deti'oit.
Mr. Casey'. Was it from Brown?
Captain Rubley. Xo; he Avasn't there.
^Ir. Casey. Was it from Snmmerville?
Captain Rubley. X'^o; he wasn't there.
Mr. Casey. Then the only other peo])le that you conferred Avith
Avere four or fiA-e other people in Detroit?
Captain Rubley^ I knoAv, but if you are doing a certain amount of
Avork-— if you are working along a certain line you get opinions along
that line Avhich later on change.
Mr. Casey. Is that the only exjJanation you can offer?
Captain Rueley'. That is the only explanation.
7638 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Well, did you have any personal observations?
Was your opinion based on any personal observations? You had
only been in Detroit a few days.
Captain Rubley. That is it. I made a statement before that I
was not grounded enough to make an opinion.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact at the time you wrote that
letter you felt very much prejudiced toward the Catholics and the
Jews ?
Captain Rubley. No ; not the Catholics ; no.
The Chairman. You did not feel prejudiced toward the Catholics?
Captain Rubley. I have Avorked very closely with them in their
hospitals.
The Chairman. Did you feel prejudiced toward the Jews?
Captain Rubley. Not especially at that time.
The Chairman. Well, of course, the point we are trying to deter-
mine here is, you went into a city, you had only been there a few
days. No one told you this but you sit down and write a letter and
say that "no one but Catholics and Jews could get attention at the
charity hospitals".
Captain Rubley. Well, that is the way it seemed to me at that
time. Now later on, as I became more familiar with the work and
saw how it was carried out, I changed my opinion entirely.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, Captain, you wei'e a member
of the Silver Legion ?
Captain Rubley. No ; I was not.
The Chairman. Did you ever meet with any Silver Legion group?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You did not know any of them ?
Captain Rubley. I did not know another single Legionnaire in De-
troit and never did know another one.
The Chairman. Do you know them anywhere?
Captain Rubley. No ; with the exception of Lawrence Brown. He
is the only Silver Legionnaire that I knew.
The Chairman, They sent you Liberation, didn't they?
Captain Rubley. Yes ; lie did for some time but I never subscribed
to it.
Mr. Lynch. Were you pledged to their cause, Captain?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Then what do you mean by this sentence in your
letter :
I pledge myself to your cause?
Captain Rubley. Well
Mr. Lynch (continuing) :
and will keep you informed of all that is going on in tliis city, but at the
jiresent time I am seriously handleaiiped for both time and money. I am
forced to delay my visit to head(iuarters at this time but you can depend upon
me as a Silver Shirt in Detroit.
What did you mean by that ?
Captain Rubley, Well, at that time T meant that.
Mr. Lynch. You were ]iledged to their cause then, weren't you?
Captain Rubley. Only in writing.
Mr. Lynch. You said those exact words ?
rX-AMERICAX rK(^PAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7639
Captain Rubley. At that tiino 1 was in sympathy with them from
what I knew of it at tliat time. Since then I liave changed my
()])inion.
Mr. Lynch. When did yon change yonr opinion?
Captain Ki'BLey. Shortly after that. 1 woukl say in the early part
of 19;U.
Mr. Lynch. AVhat oeciiri'(Hl to make yon cliange yonr o])inion?
Captain Rubley. As 1 said once or twice before, the idea became a
little fantastic.
The Chairman. What idea "became fantastic?"
CajMain Rubley. The material that came ont of Asheville.
The CiLAiRMAN. AVas it any moie fantastic — how long was it before
it became fantastic? A year later?
Captain Rubley. AVhen I had time — when I took time to sit down
and reason it ont.
The Chahjman. How long after that was it? A year hiter?
Captain Rubley. After this letter?
The Chairman. Yes.
Captain Rubley. I would say a few months.
The Chairman. Just a few months after that yon became dis-
gusted Avith the movement ?
Captain Rubley. Not disgusted — yes, you can say "disgusted with
the cause."
The Chairman. And you severed all relationship with it?
Captain Rubley, Yes, sir.
• Mr. A'oorhis. Did you ever write them and tell them that you were
doing that ?
Captain Rubley. No. It just tapered off.
The Chairman. Well, was there anything in the publications that
caused you to finally taper off? Wasn't the material about the same
from month to month?
Captain Rubley. It is always the same. You read one Liberation
now and you read one 6 months ago or one a year ago, and it is all
al)out the same.
The Chairman. That is what I was trying to inquire into. What
change in material took place that convinced you it was fantastic?
How could 3'ou believe it was all right when you wrote the letter
and then 6 months later the same material appeared fantastic to
you i
Captain Rubley. Well, I don't know how T can explain that. We
sometimes get tired of hearing the same thing over and over and
over, the same thing in a dozen different ways and it didn't
Mr. Casey. Sometimes hearing the same thing over and over reacts
ditferently on different types of minds. They begin to believe in a
falsehood if it is repeated often enough.
Cai^tain Rubley. That is right, Init it did not work that way on me.
Mr. Casey. Were you furnishing ]\Ir. Pelley with information
about conditions in Detroit at the time when you Avere misinformed?
Captain Rubley, I probably Avas but I could not say I did not.
The Chairman. You were a ca])tain in the Reserves, were you not?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. What were you ?
Cajitain Rubley. In the National Guard.
The CHAiR:srAN. In tlie National (luard?
7640 UiN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Captain Kubley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are you still an officer in the Xational Guard?
Captain Rubi.ey. No. I resigned that when I left Detroit about a
year ago — 13 months ago.
The Chairman. About a year ago?
Captain Kubley. Thirteen months ago I left Detroit.
The Chairman. You have no connection with it now?
Captain Rubley. Not with the National Guard. I still have my
commission as captain. I haven't resigned that.
The Chairman. You have your commission as captain?
Captain Rubley. In the Medical Corps.
The Chairman. Medical Corps of the National Guard?
Captain Rltbley. Well, I suppose that is it ; yes.
The Chairman. Do you receive compensation from the Federal
Government ?
Captain Rubley. No, no. Not any more.
The Chairman. You have received compensation from the Federal
Government, have you not?
Captain Rltbley*. Oh, yes.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
The Chairman. Mr. Voorhis.
Mr. Voorhis. Your commission is in the National Guard, captain.
Medical Corps, or is it in the Army ?
Captain Rubley. Well, I was commissioned in the National Guard.
Mr. Voorhis. You are commissioned as a captain in the National
Guard ?
Ca])tain Rubley. Let me read it.
Mr. Lynch. Read it into the record, Captain.
Captain Rubley (reading) :
Piecn,;inition in the National Guard of Michisran as captain. Medical Corps,
119 Amliulance Company, 107 Medical Regiment, June 18, 1930.
Mr. Lynch. Where did you receive your medical education?
Ca|)tain Rubley. TTniversity of Michigan.
Mr. Lynch. Anywhere else?
Ca])tain Rubley. Yes. Some at Chicago.
Mr. Lynch. AVhere in Chicago?
Captain Rubley. Illinois Post Graduate — no, Illinois Ear, Nose,
nnr] Throat College, and at Harvard.
Mr. Lynch. Harvard ITniversity?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. When did you go to Harvard?
Captain Rubley. 1921, the sunmier course.
Mr. Lynch. Did vou come in contact with any of the Communist
or.f^anizations up at Harvard at that time?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did vou reauest them to send an organizer out to
De*^roit to carry on this work?
Cnpti^in Rubley. The letter savs I did.
Mr. Lynch. Did you want an oro-anizer out there then?
Captain Rubley. I thought at that time that it might be a good
idf>a.
Mt. Carey. Will vou ask the witness whether it w^is tbo Harvard
Medical School or Harvard Col1po;e that he attended in 1921 ?
r.\ A.MKKICAX ritOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7641
^Ir. Lynch. Which was it?
Captain Ki'bley. jNledical College.
^fr. Casey. Now, will you inquiiv as to the colle<2;e?
Mr. Lynch. How about the c'olle>ie? Did you have any contact
Avith Harvard Colle<re ?
Captain Ruhley. Xo.
^Iv. Casey. AVhat colleire did you <>"o to l)efore you went to Harvard
IMedical School ?
Cai)tain Ribi.ey. University of Michioan.
Mr. Lynch. Now, what about the statement that you make in
this letter, (\a]>t;nii :
Tlie Wayne Cniiiiry .M»vlical Sooit^ty is so full of Jews and politicians that
thty are holdinp: tiie i)ri('es iieyond rhe reach of the ordinary person.
Captain Rfbley. That is rioht.
Mr. Lynch. Was that true or not ?
Caj^tain Rrm.F.Y. That was true.
Ml'. Lynch. What is true?
Captain Rfbley. It is true. It was true then, and it is still true.
It was when I left. It was loaded up with Jews, and they are con-
trolliui:' the medical jiractice there in Detroit.
Mr. Lynch. Did you become a member of the ^Medical Society
there ?
Captain Rfbley. No. .sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you attem])t to ?
Ca]itain Rfbley. No, sir.
]\Ii-. Voorhis. May I ask a question?
The Chairman. Mr. Voorhis.
]Mr. VooRins. Where was this organizer supposed to come from?
Mr. Lynch. To Detroit.
'Mr. Voorhis. Yes : but f I'om where ?
]\Ir. Lynch. From the Silver Legion.
Captain Rfi'-ley. So far as I know no one ever came.
The Citairaian. Let the record show that Mr. Voorhis is now
])resent. At the besfinnino- of today's hearing- there was an announce-
ment that this was a subcommittee of Mr. Casey, Mr. Thomas and the
chairman. Tt is now a subcommittee composed of Mr. Voorhis, Mr.
Casey. Mr. Thomas, and the chairman.
Mr. Lynch. Now, when vou speak about this membershij) of
«r)n.000 within a month*' of October 20, 1933, what was the basis of
youi' statement that vou were sfoino- to have 50,000 members?
Ca]itain Ribley. Not that I was ooino- to have them.
^fr. Lynch. The Klan was goina; to have them and you "would be
Avorkiiiff vfrv closely with them."
Captain Rfbley. That is the report that these men gave me that
came in and tried to solicit my membersliip.
Mr. Lynch. And vou don't Imow their names?
Captain Rfbley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. And you mean to say that you were writing to some
one and giving them facts on some statements made by two persons
whose names vou don't even know?
Ca]>tain Rfbley. That is just hearsay — that is all they saich
^Ir. Lynch. You did not make this as hearsay'?
Captain Rfbley. What 2
7642 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. "The plan is growing with unbelievable rapidity."
Captain Rubley. That is what they told me.
Mr. Lynch. You did not say "I am advised" or "two unidentified
persons whose names I did not even learn told me that they w^re
growing rapidly?"
Captain Rubley. I should have said that but I didn't.
Mr. Lynch. What did y<^ii mean by "I am working very closely
with them." Were you working very closely with them or not?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Then that was an untruthful statement?
Captain Rubley. That was an — that was an exaggeration because
I never w^orked wnth the Klan.
The Chairman. Well, you. as a matter of fact, had a number of
associates there in Detroit who were in the National Guard, didn't
you?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
The Chairman. And you had a number of friends who were offi-
cers just like jou were?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you met with them quite often, didn't you?
Captain Rubley. Every week.
The Chairman. And did you discuss this situation with them?
Captain Rubley. No; not in the
Tlie Chairman. Formally or informally?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never did discuss this with any of your
fellow officers?
Captain Rxtbley. Discuss what?
The Chairman. The threat of a revolution in Detroit, and your
statements wath reference to the Jews and Catholics?
Captain Rubley. No; I never discussed that with any of the
officers.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear them express similar views?
Captain Rubley. No.
The Chairman. You w^ere alone in the proposition?
Captain Rubley. Very much alone in that attitude.
The Chairman. Were they ever interested in the Silver Legion?
Captain Rltbley. No, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Did you know any of them as being members of
the Silver Legion?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Voorhis. Were any of them interested in the Ku Klux Klan?
Captain Rubley. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. VooRHis. In other w^ords. your fellow officers that you met
with, so far as you know, none of them sympathized with the views
you had?
Captain Rubley. No, sir. I never discussed my views with any
of the officers.
Mr. Lynch. Was there anyone there in Detroit that was par-
ticularly active in this work that you knew of except Mr. Brown?
Captain Rubley. He wasn't in Detroit.
Mr. Lynch. I know, but outside of Detroit ?
Captain Rubley. .State that question again.
UN-AMIORICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7643
Mr. Lynch. Was thciv aiuHtne else that was active in this work?
Captain Ribley. There was a woman there.
Mr. Lyxcii. What was her name?
Captain Rimlky. Fi-ances l^acon, as I recall.
Mr. Lynch. Wasn't it Catlierine Bacon?
Captain Ribley. Yes; 1 guess that is what it was.
Mr. Lynch. AVhat about the Silver Rangers? Were you inter-
ested in that idea ?
Captain Ribi.ey. Oh, that was a still more fantastic proposition.
]\rr. Lynch. What was the Silver Rangers?
Ca})tain Rubley. I don't know exactly now. It slipped my mind.
Mr. Lynch. What?
Captain Rubley. I say it slipped my mind now about what they
■were.
Mr. Lynch. Wasn't that the cavalry in Pelley's outfit?
Captain Rubley. I don't imagine it was.
Mr. Lynch. You know it was ; let us be truthful.
Ca{)tain Rubley. It slipped my mind. It is so long ago that
some of these things are hazy in my mind.
Mr. Lynch. That is your signature, is it not? [Handing letter
to Captain Rubley.]
Captain Rubley. Yes.
]\Ir. Lynch. You signed yourself, "Captain S. J. Rubley, U. S. A.,
]\I. C. 1400 Strathmore, Detroit, Michigan," signed in ink and
dated October IT, 1933. The letter was addressed from the Strath-
more address to Mr. Sunnnerville. The first sentence of that letter
is: "The last Liberation begins to talk my language." Can you
recall what that language was? '"The idea of the Silver Rangers
is a CAPITAL idea." "capital" in all caps. Do you remember seeing
that ?
Captain Rubley. Xo,
Mr. Lynch. Sir?
Captain Rubley. I don't remember seeing that.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I wish my house was in order that I miiiht join them at once but it is not.
By the same token I feel that I am in a lield that needs me more than the
Southwest.
AVhat did you mean by "the Southwest"?
Captain Rubley. Give me a little time to think. That is all so
hazy in my mind. I have almost forgotten about it.
^Ir. Lynch. ]\Iaybe I can refresh your recollection. They were
very active in Oklahoma at that time and there were letters to you
concerning this matter of possibly going out there with them to
work in Oklahoma. Does that refresh your recollection?
Captain Rubley. Faintly.
Mr. Lynch. They had written to you?
Captain Rubley. Yes; I think they tried to get me to go there. I
don't recall.
;Mr. Lynch. AMiat did they w^ant you to do in Oklahoma?
Captain Rubley. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Wasn't there a discussion about taking over the State
government '.
Captain Rubley. No.
7644 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Ltxch. You are sure of that ?
Captain Rublet. I don't recall anythinj^ like that.
Mr. Lynch. There was never a discussion about taking over the
State government of Oklahoma?
Captain Rublet. No.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
Catherine Bacon is enthusiastic and so am I Imt our efforts appear futile.
I have contacted the leader of the Klau, Mr. Weber, and he is doing a real
work.
What is ]Mr. Weber's first name?
Captain Rubley. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Did you know a Mr. Weber?
Captain Rubley. Well, that was what I have been trying to rack
my brain all the way in here about, who this Weber was.
Mr. Casey. Was lie an Army officer?
Captain Rubley. Well, if he was with the Klan he wasn't an Army
officer.
The Chairman. Did you know a Weber who was a major in the
A rmy ?
Captain Rubley. Oh, yes. Our commanding officer in the One
hundred and sixth Cavalry was Harold T. Weber.
The Chairman. He was your commanding officer?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you knew him cjuite well ?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Casey. Do you know any other Weber ?
Captain Rubley, I can't recall. That is what I am trying to do.
From what the papers said the other day apparently there was
another Weber and I can't recall who that man was.
Mr. Lynch. How does that Weber spell his name that you knew?
Captain Rubley. W^-e-b-e-r.
The Chairman. Well, is Weber still the commanding officer of that
organization ?
Captain Rltbley. As far as I know he was when I left Detroit,
The Chairman. You haven't seen him in a year?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you intimate with him?
Captain Rubley. Well, as one officer to another — as a medical
officer to the commanding officer of the regiment.
The Chairman. Did you ever express your views to him on the
Jewish question?
Captain Rubley. No. sir.
The Chairman. About the Jews?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or about the Catholics?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever talk to him about the Klan?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you evor tal]-- to him about the Silver Legion
or the Silver Rangers or the Silver Shirts ?
Captain Rubley. No.
The Chairman. Did he know Pelley?
Captain Rubley. Not that I know of.
UN-A:MERI('AX rUOPAOAXDA ACTTA'ITIES 7645
The Chairman. Did lie know Brown?
C'ni)(ain Kiuley. No, sir.
Tlie CiiAunrAX. Did he know Sumnierville?
Cai)tain Kuhlly. No, sir.
The Chairman. And yon cannot recall any other Weber that you
knew ?
Cai^tain RrniJ-.Y. I cannot recall any other "Weber. In the tele-
pram that was h.anded to nie nipht before last it bronpht up another
Weber, and I know it wasn't Colonel Weber, but I cannot recall any
other Weber that I was associated with or knew.
Mr. Lynch. Well, yon heard this fellow lecture one night. Does
that refresh your recollection^ That was in October 1933. Did you
ever attend a lecture given by Colonel Weber?
Captain Rurlev. Xo, sir.
]\Ir. Lynch. Did yon ever attend a lecture given by any Weber?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall that I ever did. It has slipped
my mind completely.
^Ii'. Lynch. Xow. you say here —
the lecture he —
referring to Weber —
gave Satiuday night was taken almost entirely from Liberation and from
private correspondence I liave received from Lawrence Brown Sunday after-
noon. The Klan onglit to hold a closed meeting and start a drive for 10.000
membership.
You had notice of that closed meeting, hadn't you?
Captain Rubley. Apparently I did or I would not have men-
tioned it.
]Mr. Lynch. Xow, does the fact of the lecture which w^as "taken
almost entirely from Liberation by Weber" refresh your recollection
as to who he was?
Cai)taiii Rubley. I can't recall. Apparently he must have been
an oi-ganizer that was there. Xow, I don't know who he was or
anything about him. It has slipped my mind.
The Chairman. Have you talked to Colonel Weber, the command-
ing officer, since you left Detroit?
Captain Rubley. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. You did not talk to him yesterday?
Captain Rubley. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Or day before yesterday?
Captr.in Rubley. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. You have never had any conversation with him
about any matter for a year?
Captain Rubley. Xo, sir. I will take that back. There was a
property adjustment when I gave up my medical detachment there.
There Avas some correspondence which lasted over 3 or 4 months.
The Chairman. Well, when you fir.st received information about
these letters you got that from neAvspapers, didn't you?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that was day before yesterday?
Captain Rubley. I think it was yesterday.
The Chairman. Did the newspaper reporters call you up?
Captain Rubley. They did; they came out to the house.
7646 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman, And yon gave out a statement ? Xow, did Colonel
Weber contact you or did you contact him after this came out in
the papers?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did anyone else contact you except newspaper
reporters ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Have you contacted any Weber since you were advised
of the testimony here the other day?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Now, you say after the 10.000 membersliip —
there is no doubt they will succeed. Out of that number there ought to be
picked a number that ought to be turned over to me for military drill and
training and from them I will pick about 50 and drill them during the winter
in equitation.
Did you have such plans as that?
Captain Rubley. Tliat was just a passing fancy.
Mr. Lynch. Did you select 50?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you select any ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you attend that proposed meeting ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. At which tliey were to start a membership drive?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. You were just deliberately misleading him in this,
ATeren't you?
Captain Rubley. Well, I did not attend the meeting.
Mr. Lynch. No, no. Now, wait a minute. Captain. It is either
one way or the other. Either this was true or it was a deliberate mis-
leading of Summerville, was it not?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And which w^as it ?
Captain Rubley. Well, I would say it was an error on my part.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I have entree to a stable of about 30 mounts that would be suitable for training
purposes.
Did you have entree to a stable of about 30 mounts?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Then that was true, wasn't it?
Ca])tain Rubley. That was true.
jMr. Lynch. So that ties in the fact of the drill in equitation, does
it not ?
Captain Rubley. I could have.
jMr. Lynch (reading).
My pet dreams since reading the last Liberation is to organize an S. S. Ranger
troop or squadron and supplement the mounted police during the coming turmoil.
What did you mean by "the coming turmoil" ?
Ca))tain Rubley. Well, that was some more of that alarmist revolu-
tion that I just got fed up on.
Mr. Lynch. That S. S. means Silver Shirt Rangers, I suppose?
Captain Rubley. I suppose so.
Mr. Casey. Do these Silver Shirt Rangers ride all-white horses ?
UN-A^IERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7647
Captain Rubley. AVhat?
Mr. Casey. Have all the Silver Rangers white horses?
Captain Rubley. I don't know.
]\Ir. Casky. I was just thinkino: in my mind about Hi Ho Silver,
and I wondered if it had any coiniection. It is all fantastic.
Captain Rurley. One is about as fantastic as the other.
]\Ir. Lyxcii. Had you made any contact with anybody with refer-
ence to the mounted ])olice, or not?
Captain Rubley. Xo.
Mr, Lynch. Have you any correspondence with them other than
about the mounted police?
Captain Rubley. Xo.
Mr. Lynch. You say further :
There are numerous large stables near Detroit's west side that can accommodate
a troop of cavalry.
Was there large stables that would accommodate a troop of cavalry?
Ca])tain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And did you plan to organize a troop of cavalry ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Then what did you mean by saying that ?
Captain Rubley. I said it could have been done.
Mr. Lynch. Was there any further correspondence about it?
Captain Rubley. Xo.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
Pasture will be available for the summer months and many of them have
housing facilities for a sufficient stable guard. If men with funds could be con-
tacted and would underwrite such a company I covild organize and drill them
and look after their general health. At this time of the year the price of mounts
is cheap because many owners do not care to winter them over, and in Indiana
and Kentucky and Tennessee I understand they are much cheaper than they are
about here.
Had you made any investigation as to the x^i'ice and availability
of mounts in those States?
Captain Rubiey. Xo, sir.
Mr. Lynch. AVhere did you get that information ?
Captain Rubley. Well, it is general information.
IVIr. Lynch. If it is general information, did you know it to be
correct ?
Captain Rubley. Well, I never made any definite investigation. It
was my opinion that that was true at that time.
Mr. Lynch. Was there a Colonel Hadley in your outfit in the Na-
tional Guard?
Captain Rubley. Xo, sir,
Mr. Lynch. Did you know Colonel Hadley?
Captain Rubley. Xo.
Mr. Lynch. Wliat ?
Captain Rubley. Xo.
]\Ir. Lynch. You say here :
I have a letter this morning from Lieutenant Colonel Hadley, of the Paul
Reveres, at 120 South La Salle Street, Chicago, that says they have no chapter
here.
Who is Colonel Hadley?
Captain Rubley. He must have been someone with the Paul Revere
organization.
94931— 40— VOL 12 29
7648 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIA'ITIES
Mr. Lynch. His initials are E. M. Hadley. Does that mt-an any-
thing to you ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Did you get a letter from him ?
Captain Rubley. Apparently I did if I say I did.
Mr. Lynch. You say :
The Klan seems to be the shock troops at present, but I feel they can be de-
pended upon to hold the line until the Silver Shirts and tlie Paul Reveres get
mobilized.
What line did you mean by that ?
Captain Rubley. Well, at that time we were looking f()r the antici-
pated, more or less, of a communistic overthrow or uprising there.
Mr, Lynch. Go ahead.
Captain Rubley. And it was my opinion that the plan, from what
these men, these organizers, had said to me while they were trying to
get me to join, that they were ready to mobilize at any time.
Mr. Lynch. How often did these organizers call upon you i
Captain Rubley. Oh, I don't know. Probably once a week or twice
a week.
Mr. Lynch. Over what period of time — what length of time ?
Captain Rubley. I would say a month.
Mr. Lynch. And you did not know their names ?
Captain Rubley. Not all of them came — they weren't the same men
all the time.
Mr. Lynch. They were different men all the time ?
Captain Rubley, Practically,
Mr. VooRHis. Didn't you ask them their names ? Didn't you try to
find out who they were ?
Captain Rubley, I probably did know their names at that time
but it slipped my mind now. I did not make any notation of it. They
undoubtedly did introduce themselves.
Mr. Lynch. While you were writing to Mr. Summerville and writ-
ing to Commander Pelley, didn't you think it was important to give
them the names of the men who would be supporting him?
Captain Rubley, No,
Mr. Lynch. And his Silver Shirts ?
Captain Rubi^ey. I did not give him any names.
Mr. Lynch. Sir?
Captain Rubley. No; I did not give him any names that I can
recall.
Mr, Casey. Were these men also Klan organizers ? Were these men
who called on you Klan organizers ?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir. They were just like any other person
trying to get up a membership. Naturally, they wanted men who had
had some training,
Mr. Casey. And they were seeking memberships for the Ku Klux
Klan?
Captain Rubley. They were seeking membership in the Klan. They
were trying to get me to join the Klan,
Mr. Casey. And were thev also seeking membership for Silver
Shirts?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Casey. These men had no connection with the Silver Shirts ?
UN-AMKKICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7649
Captain Rubley. Xo.
Mr. Casey. Tlie Klaiismen ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. VooRiiis. "\Miat did they have connection with?
Mr. Casey. The Khin, isn't that right?
Captain Rubley. I can't hear you.
Mr. Casey. The Ku Khix Khm, you said?
Captain Rubley. Yes ; the Ku Khix Klan.
Mr. VooRiiis. You mean the organizers were from the Ku Klux.
Klan?
Captain Rubley. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. They talked against the Jews and Catholics, didn't
they?
Captain Rubley. They talked about everything. I guess.
^Ir. Lynch. Didn't tliey talk about that that you remember?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. You approved of all of this work of Pelley and Sum-
iiierville, didn't you?
Captain Rubley. At that time I was — for n short time I approved
of it but I soon got to the point where I did not approve of it.
Mr. Lynch. JDid vou ever so advise them that you did not approve
of it?
Captain Rubley. No ; not in so many words.
Mr. Lynch. How did you happen to get in touch with Colonel
Hadley of tlie Paul Reveres in Chicago ?
Captain Rubley. I don't know unless it was through something
that was sent to me at that time. We were being circularized with
everything there was. A lot of it — that is, most of it went into the
wastebasket.
]\fr. Lynch. You don't mean to tell this committee, do you, Captain
Rubley, that you just happened to get correspondence from Colonel
Hadley without any prior correspondence or introduction to him?
Captain Rubley. (No answer.)
Mr. Lynch. You had some contact with him, didn't you?
Captain Rubley. No ; not that I recall. I might have written one
letter to him or two letters at the outside, but as to how I got intro-
duced to this Colonel Hadley, I do not know.
Mr. Lynch. Do you recall receiving a reply from Mr. Summerville
to your letter that was just read to you?
Captain Rubley. "Well, I would say that he answered it but I don't
recall the letter.
Mr. Lyn^'ch. T will show you this letter and ask you to identify it
and then I shall oifer it for the record. Is that the reply you received
to your letter of the l7th?
(Handing letter to Captain Rubley.)
Captain Rubley. Well, that is it. You see I am not denying this^
but it is
Mr. Lynch. Well, it was addressed to you and refers to your letter
of the 17th and your letter is dated the I7th, isn't it?
Captain Rubley. Yes. There would be a hook-up there then.
Mr. Lynch. And from the context, would you say it was a reply
to your letter that you received?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
7650 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Lynch. I would like to offer this as a part of the record in this
hearing.
The Chairman. It will be received as a part of the record.
(The letter referred to by Mr. Lynch was made a part of the
lecord.)
AsHEVTLLE. N. C, October 19, 1933.
Captaiu S. J. Rubi.et, U. S. A., M. C
IJfOOO Strathiiiore, Detroit, Mich.
Dear Captain Rublky : Yovir letter of October 17th this instant received.
I heartily approve of what yon say with regard to the effectiveness of the Klan
organization and the Paul Revere organization paralleling Silver Shirt work.
It is the ultimate principles for which we are working and it is a testimony of
rhe breadth and depth of the true knowledge motivating this campaign, that we
can see this clearly.
However, I would make it mighty hot for the leader of the Klan in Detroit
if he is using Liberation m-^.terlnl and not giving credit where credit belongs.
Emphatically, Captain Rubley, there is no organization that is as much on the
firing line as we are, or working as intensely with espionage officers who are
daily digging up information for us at possible sacrifice of their own lives. And
when the people actually get aroused there will be only one leadership that may
serve to keep the minds of the people into clear channels of constructive action,
avoiding the pitfalls of varied human leadei'ship, and that motivatiou is the
Spirit of the Christ. This battle is a division of the Anti-Christ as against the
Christ.
I shall look forward toward hearing from you in connection with my previous
letter, and by heaven, make it hot for that Klan leader.
Sincerely and fraternally,
RCS/MBW Robert C. Summe:r\ille.
Mr. Lynch. Did yon ever work with any of the, or contact any
of the, officers of the National Gnard or the Army with regard to find-
ing out secrets for this organization?
Captain Eubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. AVhat did Mr. Summerville mean when he said:
emphatically, Captain Rubley, there is no organization that is as much on the
firing line as we are, or working so extensively with espionage officers who
are daily digging up information for us at a possible sacrifice of their own
lives.
Captain Eubley, I don't know what he means there.
Mr. VoORHis. Well, weren't yon concerned about that statement
of his?
Captain Rubley. I wasn't trying to run headquarters. That was
their affair down there.
Mr. VooRHis. I know; but he says he is carrying on espionage
activities and so on. I should think you would have been concerned
about that.
Captain Rubley. I did not concern myself with that at all.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever refer the matter of the revolution that
you thought was practically at hand in the fall of 1933 to the State
officials of Michigan or to the Federal officials of the United States
Government ?
Captain Rubley. I think I wrote one letter to General Wilson;
yes.
Mr. Lynch. Who is General Wilson?
Captain Rubley. He was a major general of the Thirty-second
Division. ,
Mr. Lynch. Of what?
rX-A^MERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7651
Captain Rubley. Micliio;an National Guard. And I talked to Col-
onel Cole of a Reserve unit there in Detroit, and he gave me some
literature to send to Major General Wilson.
Mr. I.YNCH. Did you ever get a reply to that ?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir,
Mr. Lynch. What did he say?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever talk to vour own commanding officer
about the matter?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever refer it to any of the Federal authori-
ties?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Was there ever any training of anyone actively,
Captain ?
Captain Rubley. What do jou mean by that?
Mr. Lynch. This movement of the Klan?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Lynch. Or the Silver Rangers?
Captain Rubij:y. No.
Mr. Lynch. Or the United States Rangers?
Captain Rubley. So far as I know it was all paper work.
Mr. Lynch. Were there riots up in Detroit in October and the
first part of November in 1933?
Captain Rubley. Well, I don't recall of those dates. I would
probably be safe in saying there were. There was trouble there
most of the time.
jMr. Lynch. You recall you said you had only been in Detroit
about a month or so in October of 1933? Do you recall that there
were riots within a month or 6 weeks after your arrival?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall necessarily. There might have
been and might not have been. There was trouble most of the time
there in Detroit for a while, and there still is.
Mr. Lynch. I will show you another letter dated October 31, 1933,
purporting to be signed by you and I will ask you if that is your
signature ? [Handing letter to Captain Rubley.]
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Partly in typewriting and partly in longhand. I will
offer that for the record.
The Chairman. It may be received.
(The letter referred to by Mr. Lynch was made a part of the record.)
(Handwritten) : 60.7.20. C-8220. R. C. S. & H. F. S. No Ans.
Detroit, Mich., Oct. 31, 1933.
Weekly Letter to General Headquarters on conditions in Detroit.
(Stamped) : Nov. 2, 1933.
De-\r Sirs. Yesterday saw seven distinct riots, broken windows by the hun-
dreds, overturned and burned automobiles, several injuries, and scores of burned
blue prints worth hundreds of thou.sands of dollars. The attackers worked under
the guise of strikers, but the head of the striking organization deny any part in
the demonstration. The rioters traveled quickly from one factory to another iu
large and expensive cars which could not possibly be owned by the poor strikers.
One readily senses a communistic program. Police were lured far from the
scenes of battle.
Papers report the town quiet today but fresh rioting may break out at any time.
Training of the volunteer Klan cavalry troop continues without interruption.
7652 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Local papers are beginning to yowl about freedom of the press, and to criticize
the policies of the administration (who wouldn't) but it is just part of their
propaganda to stir up the people and get them to thinking about a dictator.
"Ninety percent of the people of America are in the frame of mind for a dicta-
tor," etc ad nauseum.
Intelligence officer of the United States Army predicts war within 3 months,
but does not say where.
The oflBcers of the National Guard and the officers of the Reserves are as
lethargic as the ordinary citizen, but none of them seem to think they would care
to support the dictates of a Jewish dictator. Not one of the many officers I have
talked with seem to be able to think in terms of a local revolution. The older
they are in the service the dumber they get. What a gag, what a gang. , .
Sincerely,
Samuel J. Rxtbley.
(Samuel J. Rubley M. C? U. S. A.)
P. S. — Because of the lack of the Silver Shirt organization here I am working
with the Klan. As soon as we can get a troop or squadron of "Rangers" here
I'll transfer niy energies to them, or at least divide my time. Am reserving 1
night a week for the 119 Amb C, 32 Div. The other nights go to who ever wants
to learn to ride and handle a saber.
S. J. R.
Mr. Lynch. I will ask you whether or not you sent regular, weekly
letters to the general headquarters at Asheville?
Captain Rubley, We were corresponding there for a while.
Mr. Lynch. Noav, I am asking you if you sent regular, weekly
letters ?
Captain Rubley. I imagine I did write once a week.
Mr. Lynch. Did you entitle them "Weekly Letters to General Head-
quarters on Conditions In Detroit"?
Captain Rubley. I mi^ht have — I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Do you have a file of your correspondence in this
activity ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. What did you do with it ?
Captain Rubley. Destroyed it.
Mr. Lynch. When?
Captain Rubley. When I moved from Strathmore.
Mr. Lynch. This letter referred to, says, "I saw automobiles over-
turned and burned, seven distinct riots and blueprints worth hun-
dreds of thousands of dollars." What blueprints did you mean?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall. Probably in connection with au-
tomobile factories, but I don't recall that.
Mr. Lynch. Doesn't that sentence refresh your recollection as to
the riots ?
Captain Rubley. Probably the clipping is taken from a newspaper.
Mr. Lynch. This is your own statement to them in writing. It is
in your letter to them.
Captain Rubley. I did not see any riots there.
Mr. Lynch. Well, then that was a deliberate misstatement, wasn't
it, when you say you saw automobiles overturned and burned and
seven distinct riots, and blueprints worth hundreds of thousands of
dollars.
Captain Rubley. That is what I am trying to think.
Mr. Lynch. See if this refreshes your recollection :
The attackers worked under the guise of strikers, but the head of the strik-
ing organizations denied any part in the demonstration. The rioters travelled
quickly from one factory to another in large and expensive cars, which could
VN-AJIERICAN TROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7653
not possibly be owned by the poor strikers. One readily sensed a communistic
program. The police were lured far from the scenes of battle.
What about that?
Captain RuBLt:!'. That was — I can't^ — I can't recall exactly what —
wliat — what that Avas, except it was — there was a strike among the au-
tomobile factories there; I don't recall.
Mr. Lynch. A matter as serious as you describe it here and you
cannot recall it now at all?
Captain KuiiLEY. I did not see it. I know that I got that out of
the newspa])ers. I did not see it,
]Mr. Lynch. When you say '"yesterday I saw several "
Captain Rubley. "Yesterday saw them," I did not say I saw
them.
Mr, Lynch. Now, in tliis next paragraph you tell what the papers
say about it: "Papers report that the town is quiet today but fresh
rioting may break out at any time." The fact that you say in the
second paragraph: "Papers report," and the first paragraph indi-
cates that at least by inference, you saw or had personal knowledge
of it.
Captain Rubley. Doesn't it say "yesterday saw"?
Mr, Lynch. Yes.
Captain Rubley. I did not say that I saw it.
Mr, Lynch, You have no recollection now of those riots?
Captain Rubley. Yes, I do.
Mr. Lynch. What were they ?
Captain Rubley. Automobile disturbances.
Mr. Lynch. Automobile workers ?
Captain Rubley. Or workers.
Mr. Lynch. Did you think it was a communistic program?
Captain Rubley, Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Now, the next paragraph : "Training of the Volunteer
Klan Cavalry troop continues without interruption." What does
that mean?
Captain Rubley. I don't know what it means.
Mr. Lynch. Was there a troop of cavalry volunteers ?
Captain Rubley. Not that I know of.
Mr. Lynch. Is there anything more fantastic than this letter of
yours, Captain, in the Pelley Liberation and other papers?
Captain Rubley. It ranks well with the rest of the Liberation
stuff.
Mr, Casey. What was the purpose behind these fantastic detailed
pictures that you have drawn ?
(No answer.)
Mr. Casey, Were you all right, during that period ?
Captain Rubley, W^ell, I doubt it. I doubt my own sanity at that
time now that I read the things, I am as skeptical as you are.
Mr. VooRHis, May I ask a question ?
Mr, Lynch, Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRHis. Well, Captain, you told in that previous letter that
counsel read, where you told about where you could get horses and
all the details of the thing, then you come along wath another letter
and say the thing is going along according to schedule and every-
thing like that. Now, was that all a figment of your imagination —
7654 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
all those things? I mean, it seems to me, it was rather well worked
out.
Captain Kubley. Well, I don't know that. I don't recall having
any contact with training — any plans — here is the way it worked.
Mr. VooRHis. But it says so here and that is what worries me.
Captain Rubley. Well, I might have jumped at conclusions.
Mr. VooEHis. But isn't it a question of what you were doing your-
self, Captain?
Captain Ruble y. Let me explain. I had contact with this one
riding stable and I tauglit equitation there. They would call up and
say that there is a class to be taught and I would go out and give the
instruction in equitation. As I recall, there was one class of say 20
men that were different than the rest of them, and that might have
been what I referred to,
Mr. VooRHis. How were they different?
Captain Rubley. What?
Mr. VooRHis. How were they different ?
Captain Rubley. They looked different, and they acted different
from the rest of them. They were of the type that I had been used
to instruct. They came out twice.
Mr. VooEHis. Who were they?
Captain Rubley. I don't know. I didn't pay any attention to them.
Mr. VooRHis. You told us they were different than the others. How
were they different?
Captain Rubley. They were dressed differently. They had no rid-
ing habits, and they weren't dressed like the rest of the people were.
Mr. VooRHis. Were they the troops that you spoke of in the second
letter?
Captain Rubley. Might have been that that I referred to. They
came out twice.
Mr. VooRHis. Were they in fact a troop that you were training for
these purposes?
Captain Rubley. I can't hear you.
Mr. VooRHis. Were they in fact a troop that you were training for
the purposes stated in your letter?
Captain Rubley. It must have been that that I referred to.
Mr. VooEHis. Then this was the group that you were training for
these purposes — to be cavalry troops?
Captain Rubley. But I did not know them to be definitely members
of the Klan.
Mr. VooRHis. But you thought they were?
Captain Rubley. I thought they were probably, but they had made
their own arrangements with the stable, and I was just called out there
to give instructions, and I took it that they miglit have been Klansmen.
Mr. VooRHis. And evidently you were not averse to it ?
Captain Rubley. Well, I was getting compensation.
The Chairman. How many were there?
Captain Rubley. I would say 20, and they came out twice.
The Chairman. They took two lessons in riding?
Captain Rubley. Two lessons; yes. That was all.
The Chairman. Now, you were making these regular reports to
Pelley, and Pelley was predicating some of his articles on the strength
of these reports, was he not ? I mean this is a typical example of how
Pelley got a great deal of his information ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7655
Captain Rubley. I don't recall that he based any articles on my
information.
The Chairman. Well, didn't yon read thereafter about the situation
in Detroit in Pelley's Liberation?
Captain Rubley." Other people might have been writing in too. This
Frances Bacon had nuich closer contact there than I did. I saw her
twice.
The Chairmax. You were instructed to send in reports, weren't
you, or asked to do it by Brown ?
Captain Rubley. I can't hear you.
The Ciiair:slan. I say, Brown asked you to send in regular reports,
didn't he ? He asked you to keep the General informed of what was
going on in the country?
(No answer.)
The Chairman, Wasn't that the purpose of your sending them
in?
Captain Rubley. Somewhat.
The Chairman. In other words, the general, General Pelley,
wanted to know what was going on in the countiy?
Captain Rubley. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. And he had men all over the country sending him
in reports like yours?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
The Chairman. Then, of course, the General would issue his
Liberation based upon these reports that he had?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
The Chairman. Is there any wonder in your mind that the Libera-
tion was fantastic?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mv. VooRHis. Well, Captain, in other words you were a captain
in the National Guard at this time but you were sending in re]3orts to
the wrong general, weren't you?
(No answer.)
Mr. VooRHis. I mean as a matter of fact weren't you doing that
and wasn't that pretty seamy for you to be doing a thing like that?
Captain Rubley. I can't hear you there is so much confusion.
Mr. VooRHis. I say, wasn't that a pretty cheap thing for you to
be doing at that time when vou were a captain in the National
Guard ?^
Captain Rubley. Yes sir. I am ashamed. I am thoroughly
ashamed of ni}' activities at that time, and I go on record saying
that I am.
Mr. VooRHis. "When did you stop completely anything of that
kind — ^how long ago?
Captain Rubley. I haven't had any correspondence with Pelley
for T) years, I would say.
Mr. Lynch. You also say in this letter:
Ninety percent of the peofile of America are in the frame of mind for a
dictator.
Did you really think that Pelley or someone he would nominate
would become a dictator?
Captain Rubley. No; I don't think that at all.
Mr. Lynch. Did you think that the country was ready for a
dictator at that time?
7656 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Cajitain Rubley. They were definitely ready for sometiiiiig at
that time, from the attitude of the people I talked to in Detroit.
Mr. Casey. What time was that?
Captain Rubley. In 1933.
Mr. Lynch. Yon also say that intelligence oificers of the United
States Army predict war within 3 months but do not say where.
The officers of the National Guard aud the officers of the Reserve are as
lethargic as tlie ordinary citizen, but none of them seem to tliink they would
care to support the dictates of a Jewish dictator. Not one of the many
officers I have talked with seems to be able to think in terms of local revolu-
tion. The older they are in the service the dumber they get — what a gag!
What a gang !
Now, what about these officers? Did you reall}^ talk to officers or
not ?
Captain Rubley. I never talked to officers about the Silver Shirt
organization.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever talk to officers about the Klan?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did you ever talk to officers about a revolution?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall that I ever did. Although there
were at that time, there was at that time considerable agitation in
Detroit.
Mr. Lynch. What about the support of a Jewish dictator?
Captain Rubley. No ; I never talked to them about that.
Mr. Lynch. Wliat is the One Hundred and Nineteenth Ambulance
Corps, Thirty-second Division? Is that the one you were attached
to?
Captain Rubley. At that time, yes. I had command of the
ambulance company.
Mr. Lynch. You were giving one night a week to the ambulance
company, weren't you ?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Do you remember saying in this same letter, in hand-
writing :
I am reserving one night a week for the 119 Ambulance Company, 32nd
Division. The other nights I go to whoever wants to learn to ride and
handle the saber.
What about that. That is pretty harsh language. Captain. What
did you mean by that?
Captain Rltbley. Well, that hooks right up with the riding classes
that I had. We never used a saber though. There were none
available.
Mr. VooRHis. But you said these fellows showed up only twice?
Captain Rubley. Yes; but I had other classes.
The Chairman. On other nights?
Captain Rubley. On other nights; yes.
Mr. Casey. This was what is known as vocal saber rattling. It
never got beyond the vocal stage.
Captain Rubley. That is right; just ]Daper talk.
The Chairman. Captain, frankly, what was the situation? Were
you trying to drum up your business and make some money out of
it? Did you see an opportunity to make some money from these
fellows or was it a case that you were trying to send Pelley the stuff
that Pelley wanted? What was the real low-down on it?
UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7657.
Captain Rluley. I never got an3'tliinj:^ from this. I never got any
financial retnrns from these reports.
Tlie Chatkman. Did you expect to set some from these riding
classes ?
Ca.])tain Rubijiv. Yes: I did.
Tlie Chairman. Yon were trying to build up some business along
that line, is that it?
Captain Rublet. Yes.
The Chairman. Yon did not particularly care about anything
about the Klan except as you saw an opportunity^ to make some
money ?
Captain Rubley. That is right.
The CHAiRiNfAN. That is the truth about it?
Captain Rubley. That is the truth of it.
Tlie Chairiniax. .Vnd the truth about it is you were sending tiiis
stuff to Pelle}' for the same purposes, weren't you?
Captain Rubley. For the same purposes?
The Chairman. I mean sending these reports to Pelley and
naturally Pelley would encourage his followers and the Klan and so>
forth, to send yon business, is that right?
Captain Rubley. Xo : not that I know of.
The Chairman. Well, you have given an explanation why you
wanted to get these fellows out and let 3"ou be the instructor. I am
trj'ing to get the explanation as to why you would send these reports
to Pelley. Was it at the request of Brown ?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
The Chairman. Brown told you that he wanted these reports?
Captain Rubley. Yes. He said he thought they would be valuable
at Asheville.
The Chairman. Valuable for them in editing the Liberation?
Captain Publey. I imagine so; yes.
The Chairman. And also in passing information along to other
people ?
Captain Rubify. Yes.
The Chairman. I mean after Pelley got the reports from you from
Detroit he would pass that information on to people in North Carolina
or South Carolina, or wherever he had groups, and those people would
have an idea about what was going on in Detroit?
Captain Rubley. I imagine that is what he did. I don't know. I
never followed it up.
The Chair^fan. Well, don't you see the dangerous implication?
Captain Rubify. Yes : I do now. Surely I see it.
The Chairman. This stuff you put in the hands of a man who
used it as facts, and many people who were not acquainted with the
true situation would naturally be mislead.
Captain Rubley. Yes.
The Chairman. And from his publications they would think that
Detroit was about to have a revolution.
Captain Rubley. And a lot of us thought that at the time, too.
The Chairman. You were having considerable trouble in Detroit
at the time?
Captain Rubley. Yes. There was a lot of trouble and I was also in
Flint in 1986, when we had plenty of trouble there.
7658 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Casey. And you put in your letter the name of "Weber," and
you say the only Weber that you know was the commanding officer of
the regiment that you were in ? If that is true you were bringing some
innocent people into the picture.
Captain Rubley. I can't recall who Weber was, where he came from
or anything about him ; I don't recall.
Mr. Casey. Have you a picture of a man named "Weber" at all in
your mind ?
Captain Rubley. No ; I can't. I know it was not Colonel Weber.
Mr. Casey. You know definitely it was not Colonel Weber ?
Captain Rubley, I know definitely it was not Harold T. Weber of
the One Hundred and Sixth Cavalry. Where the other Weber comes
in, I can't remember.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever send Pelley or his organization any money ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Casey. Did you ever collect any money for him ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Does he use the words "Harold T. Weber" in any
of his letters ?
Mr. Lynch. No.
The Chairman. Does the record show a Weber who is connected with
the Silver Shirts ? Wasn't there some evidence here of a Weber being
connected with the Silver Shirts? Did you know a Weber connected
with the Silver Shirts?
Captain Rubley. No, I don't; and I don't know any Weber con-
nected with anything. That is what I was trying to remember.
Mr. VooRHis. Well, was Mr. Pelley collecting money from people in
Detroit at that time ?
Captain Rubley. I don't know.
The Chairman. Did he ever get any of your money ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Did he ever give you any money ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Wliere were you located before you came to Detroit ?
Captain Rubley. I was at Sturgis for just a short time.
Mr. Lynch. And you took up and gave a history in one of your
letters of the fact that you left Sturgis, didn't you ? Do you remem-
ber that?
Captain Rubley, I left Sturgis; yes.
Mr. Lynch. And you told them of that fact, didn't you ?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall.
Mr, Lynch, I will show you your letter dated September 30. Would
that be about the time you left Sturgis ?
Captain Rubley. Just a little bit after.
Mr. Lynch. This is your signature, isn't it ?
(Handing letter to Captain Rubley.)
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch, Dated September 30, 1933, and addressed to Liberation
and general — general G. H, Q. — of the Silver Shirts. That is gen-
eral headquarters?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. That is the way you use it in the Army, isn't it :
"G. H. Q." for general headquarters?
T:X-A>rETlTrAX rPvOrAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7659
(^iptuin Rtthley. That is riglit.
]\Ir. Lynch. And you say in this letter: "I am in close contact with
a laro;e number of Army ofHcers here and am cultivating their friend-
ship all I can." Was that true or not ?
Captain Rubley. Naturally.
Mr. Lynch. It was true?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And why were you cultivating their friendship?
Captain Rubley. It was because I wanted to get transferred from
the ()ne Hundred and Nineteenth Ambulance Company at Monroe to
the One Hundred and Sixth Cavalry. That is why. I wanted to get
the change and save about 80 miles of driving once a week.
Mr. Casey. Isn't the implication rather plain there that you were
cultivating their friendship for the purpose of having them become
members of the Silver Shirts or the Klan ?
Captain Rubley. No.
Mr. Casey. If you wanted to be transferred from one place to an-
other, you would not need to cultivate the acquaintance of a great
many officers?
Mr. VooRHis. And certainly would not need to tell Summerville-
about that.
Captain Rubley. I never talked — what j^ou are trying to do is hook
up this friendship with the Silver Shirts; is that right?
Mr. VooRHis. Well, I don't know.
The Chairman. Read the letter and let us see the expression there.
Mr. Lynch. I will read the entire letter.
Captain Rubley. All right.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
Please note the change of address from Sturgis, Michigan, to Detroit.
That is the first sentence. Now, have you been in contact with them
from Sturgis before you went to Detroit ?
Captain Rubley. Apparently.
Mr. Lynch. Is that correct or not?
Captain Rubley. Apparently it is correct.
Mr. Lynch. All right (reading) :
I wish to call to the attention of the editor of Liberation to pages 2 and 3. The
most international organization outside of the banliers was omitted. That was
the Rotary International. I have been a Rotarian for several years and last year
was elected President of the Sturgis Club.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Casey. Wliat is that?
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I have been a Kotarian for several years and last year was elected President of
tlie Sturgis Club, but was glad to give it up when I moved to Detroit.
In all my joining I never entered a more useless and emasculated outfit than
that.
Captain Rubley. That is right.
]SIr. Lynch. You wanted something with fire and pep, didn't you?
Captain Rubley. At that time ; yes.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I went to particular pains to tell them what I thought of the chib just before
I left, and after the International Convention in Boston I wrote a criticism to the
Internaional Secretary at Chicago.
7(560 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Captain Rublet. No; wait a minute. Wliat time was that?
Mr. Lynch. Tliat you wrote to the Secretary at Chicago about the
International Convention at Boston, is that correct?
Captain Kublet. I wasn't at Boston. There wasn't — wait a minute.
Benton Harbor, wasn't it ?
Mr. Lynch. No ; it says "Boston."
Captain Rubley. That is a misstatement then because there was no
eoiivention — I didn't attend a convention in Boston.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
The district governor and the field contact man made a special trip to Sturgis
and interviewed all the members and were alx)ut ready to jump me when I beat
them to the draw and announced I was resigning and leaving town.
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I am in close contact with a large number of Army officers here and am culti-
vating their friendship all I can. I am also planning on spending one night a
week downtown learning all I can and as interesting material appears I will send
it to you. I wish to be kept "Lncogno."
You meant incognito ?
Captain Rubley. That is a mistake. That is a typographical error.
Mr. Lynch. And "until I get my bearings. I also find that the
K. K. K.," that means "Ku Klux Klan"?
Captain Rubley. That is right.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
Is organized and active here?
Captain Rubley. That is right.
Mr. Lynch. Now, I will stop and ask you a question : Had you writ-
ten from Sturgis about the activities of the Klan or not?
Captain Rubley. No, I did not know that Sturgis had a KJan.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I feel that they are doing a real work in breaking up communist meetings where
police are too much hampered by politics to take care of them. They use a very
effective method "P-elm clubs and hard knuckles."
Whatisa"P-elmclub"?
Captain Rubley. That is an elm club.
Mr. Lynch. You mean a night stick ?
Captain Rubley. Night stick, I imagine.
Mr. Lynch. And the "hard knuckles" are the brass knuckles?
Captain Rubley. I don't know.
Mr. Lynch. Were they the ones engaging in street fights with
members of the Communist Party, to break up the meetings?
Captain Rubley. Partly were.
Mr. Lynch. Did you know that ?
Captain Rubley. No; except as the organizers would tell me.
Mr. Lynch. The organizers were with you then in the latter part
of September, weren't they ?
Captain Rubley. Yes. I can tell you how that contact was made.
Mr. Lynch. How?
Captain Rubley. I was in an office with a dentist. We had a
common waiting room, and some of his patients were Klansmen.
Now, their names I can't remember
Mr. Lynch. Who was that dentist?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7661
Captain Rrni.F.Y. T prefer to keep his name quiet. He is not asso-
ciated with this in any way.
Mr. Lynch. All right.
Each Klansman fisures lie is equal to about tive or six Reds. Tlie members
are wearing blue shirts.
"Were they wearin<T blue shirts?
Captaiii Kiblfa'. Yes. They wore blue shirts for a while, I think.
Mr. Ltncii. And they would wear those at meetings, wouldn't
they ?
Captain Rubley. I suppose ; yes.
Mr. Lynch. And you saw them, didn't you?
Captain Rublf.y. I don't recall that I did see them.
Mr. Lynch. You were at some Klan meetings, w^eren't you?
Captain Rubley. I was at one Klan meeting.
Mr. Lynch. Did they wear blue shirts?
Captain Rubley. I don't recall that they did. ISIight have been
n few that did liave on blue shirts, but I don't recall.
The Chaiioian. Now, Captain, as a matter of fact, didn't Brown
tell you that Pelley wanted to build up a private militarj'^ organiza-
tion in the United States ?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
The Chairman, And that his purpose for building it up was to
combat communism ?
Captain Rubley. That is right.
The Chairman. "Save the country from"' he used the word "Jew-
ish dictatorship."
Captain Rubley. I think so.
The Chairman. x\.nd as a matter of fact Brown was very much
interested in meeting as many Army officers as he could, wasn't he?
Captain Rubley. No. I don't think Brown ever met any Army
officers.
The Chairman. But lie was, and you know that Pelley was, very
anxious to enlist the aid and sympathy of Army officers in the United
States, didn't you ?
Captain Rubley. I took it to be that ; yes.
The Chairman. And that as a matter of fact, and I think Mr.
Pelley so stated himself in his book, or in one of the books that he
wrote, that w-as read into the record, he wanted to build up this
military, semimilitary organization throughout the country, and that
was so i-epresented to you by Brown ?
Captain RiTiLEY. Yes.
The Chairman. And your part in the affair was, since you were
an Army officer and had training, was to train them in cavalry work,
wasn't that about the substance of it?
Captain Rubley. "Well, that is what was proposed but it just died
a natural death. There Avas no activity on it at all.
The Chairman. But when you entered into that or consented to
that, didn't you realize that you were a captain in the National
Guard Medical Corps and that you had taken an oath of allegiance
to the United States?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir; and I still have it.
The Chairman. Didn't you realize or have the idea that military
organizations, private military organizations, were distinctly agahist
7662 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the interests of this country? Didn't you think that would be a
very dangerous thing to build up ?
Captain Rubley. Well, it could be but there was no activity on
that for my part. I say as soon as I saw or got acquainted with it
I dropped it.
The Chairman. Did they seek you out in the first instance or
did you seek them out?
Captain Rublet. I don't recall who wrote the first letter. I think
Lawrence Brown wrote the first letter to me.
The Chairman. Did you learn from Lawrence Brown that he was
contacting other Army officers in the country?
Captain Rubley. No. He wasn't contacting others.
The Chairman. Didn't you think it was strange that he contacted
you?
Captain Rubley. No. Because Lawrence Brown and I were
roommates in college. You see we had been friends for 25 years.
The Chairman. Was he ever in any military organization him-
self?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir. He was in the Navy, I think, during
the war.
The Chairman. But you understood from Brown that the Klan
was working with the Silver Shirts?
Captain Rubley. No; not necessarily.
The Chairman. How did you get the relationship between the
two? You use the words "KKK" and "Silver Legion." It is all
mixed up together. Didn't you think they were all working to-
gether?
Captain Rubley. No; I did not.
The Chairman. But you thought they had about the same aim?
Captain Rubley. About the same aims at that time ; yes.
Mr. Lynch. Isn't it true you were contacting these Army officers
for the purposes indicated by the chairman's questions a moment
ago?
Captain Rubley. In what way?
Mr. Lynch. And Mr. Voorhis' questions, when you were contact-
ing and making friends with as many Army officers as you could,
as you say in your letter that we just referred to. Weren't you do-
ing it for that purpose?
Captain Rubley. For what purpose?
Mr. Lynch. For the purpose of enlisting them in case there was
a revolution, or an attempt would be made to take over the Gov-
ernment ?
Captain Rubley. No. I had reference there to the transfer that I
wanted.
Mr. Lynch. And you want the committee to believe that now, do
you, Captain?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lynch. That that is the reason you were contacting as many
Army officers and cultivating their friendship all you could ?
Captain Rubley. That is primarily it. I also contacted this
Colonel Cole, who is intelligence officer of Detroit there.
Mr. VooRHis. Well, Captain, I don't know anything about this, but
is that a customary thing for a military man to do when he wants to
effect a transfer?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7ijQS
Captiiin RuRLEY. Quite a bit ; yes.
Mr. ^'o<.)KIIIS. Cio around and make friends with a lot of other
officei's ?
Captain RrnLEY. It is custoniarv — certainly.
Mr. Vooiuiis. That is the way they usually <io about it?
Captain Kuhley. Not necessarily; but in the National Guard, if
Colonel Weber had not known me and I had made application for
transfer, he probably would ha^-e j)ioeonholed my application.
Mr. VooKiiis. Then win- did you write to the Silver Shirt people
and tell them about that if that were the only reason you were doinfj
it ? What business was it of theirs ?
Captain Rui?ley. Tt was none of their business.
The Chairman. Well, now, Captain, let us be perfectl}' frank about
this thing.
Captain Eubley. All right.
The Chairmax. You said that you knew from Brown that Pelley
was interested in contacting as many Army officers as possible. Now,
3'ou had that information and you knew further and you have stated
that what you wanted to do was build up as much business as you
could. Now, wasn't that the purpose of that letter — to leave the
impression with Pelley and that group that you were out contacting
these Army officers for the purpose of interesting them in this same
movement ?
Captain Rubley. I never talked to these Army officers.
The Chairman. I am not asking you whether you talked to them,
but wasn't that the purpose?
Captain Rubley. Possibly the purpose was to make him think that
I had quite a wide range of friends.
Mr. VooRiiis. You knew, did you not, that one of the reasons why
Pelley was interested in you was because you were an officer ?
Captain Rubley. I don't know as that was primarily the reason. I
Mas just another member — a possible member, I mean.
iSIr. VooRHis. Didn't you ever think that one of the reasons he was
interested in you was because you were an Army officer?
Captain Rcbley. I don't kiiow that exactly.
Mr. VooRiiis. Did you ever think that ? Did that ever occur to you ?
Captain Rubley. Well, it might have occurred as a fleeting fancy.
It didn't make much headway.
Mr. Lynch. Cai)tain. I will sho\v you a letter dated October 10, 1933.
It is written in longhand, and it is purportedly signed by you. I will
ask you if that is your signature [handing letter to Captain Rubley] ?
Captain Rubley. Yes, sir. That is my signature.
Mr. Lynch. This letter is addressed to G. H. Q. That was the
general h.eadquarters of the Silver Legion, wasn't it?
Captain Rubley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. And in this letter, Mr. Chairman, he says— this letter
is in longhand :
"What can yon tell me about the role the Army and Navv will plav in the next
governmeut undex- Baruch, or, rather, dictator Bariuh.
Referring to Barney Baruch, weren't you?
Ca])tain Rtbley. Yes, sir.
94931 — 40— vol. 12 30
7664 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIF.«
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
I feel this next Congress (?) will be the last one. What will be our next step
as Army officers? Will the Army stay with the dictator or with the people.
Does that refresh your recollection, together with the questions of
the chairman and Mr. Voorhis, that you were attempting to contact
Army officers to get them to go with you ?
Captain Eubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch (reading) :
'phese are hard questions and I doubt if you will be able to answer them.
But our time is short, but I feel someone should begin to think in terms of
the change that is coming and not be caught napping * * * Five studied
the Russian revolution, and I feel that I have an understanding of what we
are in for and I am anything but elated this morning. It is like watching an
approaching cyclone.
Does that refresh your recollection that you were attempting to
contact the members of the Army ?
Captain Rubley. No, sir.
Mr. Lynch. Sir?
Captain Rubley. No, sir. We were apprehensive at that time,
apparently unduly so because as I say I had had this communication
with alarmists and absorbed too much of the alarm that they tried to
spread.
Mr. Voorhis. I am just wondering whether the captain thought he
was going to allay this alarm by building up Mr. Pelley's forces. Did
you think that was going to help allay the alarm of the country?
Captain Rubley. No.
The Chairman. Did you understand that question?
Captain Rubley. Yes ; I answered liim.
The Chairman. All right, step aside.
Our next witness is Mr. Hurley. Mr. Hurley, will you come around ?
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hurley. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE F. HUELEY, INVESTIGATOR FOR THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. What is your name ?
Mr. Hurley. George F. Hurley.
The Chairman. You are one of the investigators for this committee ?
Mr. Hurley, That is correct.
The Chairman. Mr. Hurley, did you have occasion a few days ago
to obtain possession of certain records of the Communist Party in
Philadelphia?
Mr. Hurley, I did, sir.
The Chairman. Will you explain how you got possession of those
records ?
Mr. Hurley. The records were obtained through a twofold pro-
cedure. No. 1 was a subpena duces tecum issued by this coimnittee
for certain records of the Communist Party in Philadelphia, and also
a search warrant which was obtained through one of the county magis-
trates. The police department of Philadelphia executed the search
warrant. I in turn issued or served the subpenas upon individuals
in Philadelphia.
UN-AMEUICAX rUoPACAND.V ACTIVITIES 7665
The CiiAiKArAX. In pursuance to the subpena duces tecum and the
.-earch warrant, did you proceed to secure certain records of the party?
Mr. Hurley. I did. sir.
The Chairman. You «^ot rather complete records of the Communist
Party, did you not 'i
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chaikmax. Will you state wiuit they consisted of?
Mr. Hurley. The records consisted, in the main, part of the mem-
be i-sliip lists, account boolvs, bank accounts, bank statements, miscel-
laneous files, election lists, party books, applications to the party,
literature, and mailing lists. I might say for the record that a com-
2)lete inventory has not been nuide at the present time but is in process.
The Chairman, Now, did the files of the Communist Party contain
the names of sympathizers and contacts in and around the eastern
division of Pennsylvania^
Mr. Hurley. 1^ might answer that question by stating that the
mailing lists, of course, would reflect to a certain extent people in that
category. And with regard to names appearing on other lists that
fact woidd later be developed by running out the necessary leads.
The Chairman. Didn't the files contain a list of the International
Workers ?
Mr. Hurley. The files of the International Workere were obtained
at a difterent address from the party headquarters. They were ob-
tained at 801 Ijocust Street, Philadelphia. The party headquarters
is located at 250 Broad Street, Philadelphia.
The Cir AiRivrAX. And also among the files you obtained applications
for placing Connnunist candidates upon the ticket?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct, sir.
The CirAiRMAN. AVith the names of the original signatures of every-
one who had signed a petition (
Mr. Hurley. Tiiat is correct.
The Chairman. Did the files show also the names of certain people
who were active in other organizations?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
The Chaujman. Such as the League of Women Shoppers?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. And different organizations in and about that
area?
Mr. Ht'RLEY. That is correct.
The Chairman. They are the names of those who are active in the
organization?
Mr. Hurley. That is true. That is, the party lists, themselves, to a
certain extent.
The Chaiilman. Now. Avhen you secured these records you brought
them to the city of AVashington?
Mr. Hurley. That is right.
The Chairman. And those records now are in the possession of
this connnittee?
Mr. HiRLEY. That is correct.
The ( HAiRMAX. When the search warrant was issued by the local
magistrate did he confer Avith the district attorney's office?
Mr. HuRiEY. That is my understanding; yes, sir. I was not pres-
ent at any time that he did so confer.
The Chairman. r)ut vou were so informed?
7666 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Hurley. But I was so advised by the city magistrate or the
county magistrate.
The Chairman. And after that conference Ayith the district at-
torney's ofKce the magistrate issued the order to seize the records, is
that correct?
Mr. HuRLET. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Under the laws of the State of Pennsylvania?
Mr. Hurley. That is right. The Pennsylvania Sedition Act.
The Chairman. Do you recall anything else that you got from the
files ? Of course I realize the files are rather voluminous. But you
secni-ed certain files, didn't you?
Mr. Hurley. That is right.
The Chairman. That were in possession of the party?
Mr. Hurley. And which I understand will reflect certain party
activities.
The Chairman. Well, the committee will receive in the record all
of such evidence at this time, such evidence in full as taken from
the records of the Communist Party, and they are hereby made a
part of the committee's records to be made public by the committee
probably beginning tomorrow. But the Chair wants the record to
show that those records are now a part of this committee's records
and have been received in evidence.
(The files and papers referred to by the chairman are made a part
of the record.)
Now, likewise, you secured the files of the Communist Party at
Boston, Mass.
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir ; I did.
The Chairman. Under a subpena duces tecum ?
]VIr. Hurley. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Was that with the consent of those in charge of
the Communist Party headquarters at Boston ?
]Mr. Hurley. It was, sir. I served a subpena upon Mr. Frankfeld
and also upon Miss Burlak, and in accordance with the terms of the
subpena they agreed that the records we took could be taken by us
in compliance with the terms of the subpena.
The Chairman. In other Avords, they voluntarily gave you the
records ?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct. We made up a list of the records so
obtained. He kept a copy of it — Mr. Frankfeld, and I had a copy
I made for our files and had those lists certified before a notary
public in the city of Boston, Mass.
Mr. VooRHis. May I ask one question ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. VooPHis. You stated the circumstances under which you se-
cured this material in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
Mr. VooRiiis. I would just like to ask you, for the record, whether
in any other case in any other city or in any other place, whether
the circumstances have ever been essentially different from what they
were there ?
Mr. Hurley. Only to this extent, Congressman, that the committee
has been in the habit of issuing subpena duces tecum upon the persons
who have charge of records in the various offices. The subpena duces
tecum have listed pretty thoroughly the information that the com-
rX-AMEKICAX I'KOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7667
niittee requires and requests. After that subpena or that type of sub-
pena had been issued on three or four different offices we understood
the instructions enianalin<j; from the lieadquarters of the Communist
Party specifically stated that the subpenas should not be complied
with anil that the persons upon whom the subpenas were issued should
refuse to produce them, statinjj that it was a violation of their con-
stitutional rights, or whatever it might be — in order to protect their
constitutional rights and in order to seize these records or get posses-
sion of them, in accordance with established legal procedure, we felt
it necessary in the case in Philadelphia to secure the search warrant
under the Pennsylvania statute.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Hurley, I believe you said the Communist
Party had recently issued instructions to all offices not to give this com-
mittee any of its records?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. And to order them out of the office?
Mr. Hurley. That is right.
The Chairman. Among the records secured by j'ou in Philadelphia,
are a number of membership books?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. I show vou some of the books. Do you recognize
these as being the books that were obtained at that time [showing Mr.
Hurley a number of booklets] ?
Mr. Hurley. I do.
The Chairman. I also show you as an example, the records kept
with reference to members of the party who are active in other or-
ganizations. For instance, here is one: The League of Women
Shoppers.
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. A card index giving the names of certain people ?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. A general description and they are now all a part
of the record ?
Mr. Hurley. For example, under the category "League of Women
Shoppers," are listed party members. I might mention the names of
these three: Eve Bernoff, Elsie Lincoln, Harriett Erlich. At the top
of the list is noted "party organizers," and stipulating that they are
additional party members.
Another card reflects the fact — the category lists it as League of
Women Shoppers, party organizers, sympathizers, party possibilities :
"Pauline Miller, Sylvia Austro, and Mary Ways."
The Chairman. Pardon me. You said "party organizers"? You
mean party organization?
Mr. Hurley. Party organization.
The Chairman. You don't have to give the names of the people at
this time.
Mr. Hurley. One card reflects the fact : "League of Women Shoppers
fraction" and lists the members.
Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Chairman, I want to try to understand. Are the
people whose names appear on these cards considered members of the
Communist Party?
The Chairman. Members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Voorhis. Is that indicated on the cards?
7668 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Hurley. That is what is stated here. The cards speak for
themselves. The League of Women Shoppers, the executive board,
the chairman, the vice chairman, the executive secretary, the recording
secretary, person in charge of publicity, and the person in charge of
education.
The Chairman. In other words, this card that you just mentioned
shows the chairman fraction members, shows the vice chairman.
There is no notation made after the vice chairman. Executive secre-
tary is given and marked "fraction members"?
Mr. HuKLET. That is correct.
The Chairman. Publicity name is given and fraction members?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. Education name is given and fraction members,
showing that the executive board has the following people who are
fraction members of the Communist Party, and hold ofiicial positions
in the League for Women Shoppers. The purpose is to show that the
Communist Party has a very accurate and full i-ecord of everybody in
the party and where they are working. and what positions they hold in
these various organizations, all of which has been denied heretofore.
Now, these Communist cards; for instance, I will show you one
card numbered 112575, issued to a certain man, giving his name, and
the State, his district, the city, the branch, the section, when the book
was issued with the stamps on the back.
Mr. Hurley. And I identify that as one of the books.
The Chairman. That is one of the books?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You testified all these were among the books, but I
was particularly interested in their contents. Here is a numl3er of
pages that are apparently torn out of a membership book. Is that
part of the record that you secured — are they a part of the records
3'ou secured?
Mr. Hurley. That is right.
The Chairman, Were those pages torn out when you secured the
record ?
Mr. Hurley. At the time when the policy officer entered the head-
quarters at 250 Broad Street, several of the people present attempted
to tear up quite a bit of information. I don't know whether or not
that formed a part of it. It is reasonable to presume it did.
The Chairman. Well, this particular membership card is No.
108413. Then there is another membership card No. 111967.
In other words, the number of members in the party, so far as the
records that we have here show, is in excess of 112,000?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not there is a card here
that goes higher than that figure ?
Mr. Hurley. There is one here numbered 112965.
The Chairman. Here is a book in Avhich a membership name and
first page has been torn out of.
Mr. Hurley. We f(jund several of those.
The Chairman. Now, in every instance the blue sheet in the front
of the book, which is to be sent to the branch, I see is torn off here.
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. Here is a card numbered 111563, which is among
the records that you obtained. I show you what is called "nomination
paper" ?
UN-AMERIOAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7669
Mr. HuKLEY. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiitMAN. Sixteenth Eei)resentative District, Philudelphiii,
Phihidelphiu County, and <>ivino: the names of the people who signed
tlie petition to gvt certain candichites on the hallot ?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct, sir.
The CiiAiKMAX. Do yon reco<>iiize all of tliese nomination papers
as being the papers that you obtained in the offices of the Comnmnist
Party?
Mr. Hurley. I do.
The Chairman. T sIioav you here the record of the payment of dues.
Did you obtain this in the tiles of the Connnunist Party?
Mr. Hurley. I did, sir.
The Chairman. At the same time 3'ou got the other records?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Noav, this shows the payment of dues for each
week, I believe?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. The initiation and then the payment of dues?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. Now, are the branch numbers shown?
Mr. Hurley'. Yes. sir. And I have that broken down in more
detail, I believe, in another pamphlet.
The Chairman. Now, I show you the receipt books. This gives the
receipts of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. The carbon copy of the receipt — the original evi-
dently is issued to the person who paid the money ?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. This record vou got also among the files of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Hurley. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. At Philadelphia?
Mr. Hurley^. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I show you the cash book ?
Mr. Hurley. Yes. sir. This book reflects the cash disbursements.
The Chairman. Of the Communist Party?
Mr. HuTiLEY. Of the Connnunist Party.
The Chairman. Here are some more cash books.
Mr. Hurley'. This book represents the caali receipts of the Com-
munist Party.
The Chaujman. Now, I give you the weekl}- reports issued by the
Comnmnist Party of Pennsylvania or the City of Philadelphia.
Mr. Hurley. The Philadelphia unit to the national headquarters
of the Communist Party in New York.
The Chairman. This gives infoiniation M-ith reference to the receipt
number, the unit, the dues, the stamps, the total, additional dues, in-
lernational solidarity fund, I. S. F. additional, travelers, and so on
and so forth.
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
The Chaibman. You obtained these records in the same way that
you got the other records you testified to?
Mr. Hutjley. In the same fashion ; that is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Noav, I show you the current check book. Do you
recognize that as being part of the records that you obtained?
7670 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Hurley. I do.
The Chairman. And also canceled checks?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. Now I show you a transfer card, a blank transfer
card. Did you obtain some of these transfer cards in the files of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hurley. We secured quite a number of these transfer cards.
The Chairman. I show you a book which gives the form of all
reports to the national headquarters of the Communist Party, show-
ing, in other words, that the Connnunist Part}' of Philadelphia makes
regular report in detail to the national headquarters of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Now, I show you the form of a pam])hlet, rather,
a pamphlet entitled "The Navy Yard Helmsmen Steer a True
Coui-se," issued by the Communist Party group of the navy yard.
Did you get that in the files of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hurley. I did.
The Chairman. And I show you various other drawings for their
publication, Shopping News, and People's Forum, and miscellaneous
matters?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, in addition to these records in the committee
offices are a great many other records that you obtained, is that true?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. I show you a summary of the Assembly of Youth,
dated December 16 and 17, 1939, Philadelphia Youth Council, 490
Social Service Building, Philadelphia, Pa. Did you obtain that in
the files of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hurley. I did, sir.
The Chairman. I show you cards giving the membership list of
the Philadelphia Council, and giving the name of the person and
where he lives, his address. Did you obtain these cards in the files of
the Communist Party in the same manner in which you obtained the
other documents?
Mr. Hurley. I did, sir.
The Chairman. I note one card by a particular member with the
request under there: "May I have free literature for a group of 15
mothers, please." And on some of the cards is detailed information
with reference to where the particular member is active?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
Tlie Chairman. And in this particular case the member was active
in the Lucky Star Club. In another instance another member was
active in the Rumanian Beneficial Society?
Mr. Hurley. That is correct.
The Chairman. Now, I show you the report of the Communist
Party of — I presume it is receipts or invoices of dues stamps, showing
legular reports to tlie national headquarters of the Communist Party.
Mr. Hurley. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. That was a part of the records that you obtained?
Mr. Hurley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, stand aside.
Mr. Barker, will you take the stand.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7^71
Do you solemnly swear to toll the truth, the whole truth, and
nothinir hut the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Barkkr. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. BARKER, INVESTIGATOR FOR THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. AVliat is your name?
Mr. Barker. Eohort B. Barker.
The Chairman. You are one of the investigators of this committee?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Did you serve a subpena upon James Dolsen ?
Mr. Barker. James H. Dolsen.
The Chairman. James H. Dolsen ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that subpena served at the headquarters of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Barker. Xo, sir. It Avas served at his apartment.
The Chairman. At his apartment ?
Mr. Barker. 1413 Fifth Avenue. Pittsburgh, on March 28, 1940.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Dolsen accompanj^ you to Washington
in obedience to the subpena?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did he do so voluntarily?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was he willing and anxious to come to Wash-
ington ?
]\Ir. Barker. Oh, he enjoyed the trip.
The Chairman. What I mean is, did you tell him he had to come
or did you put him under arrest or anything of that sort ?
Mr. Barker. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Did he surrender to you the documents that he had,
voluntarily and of his free will?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. We gathered them up and he furnished a
couple of suitcases to put them in.
The Chairman. Was that before the Communist Party gave in-
structions to the various units and offices to resist the committee's
efforts to secure records ?
Mr. Barker. That was before that front-page instmction in the
Daily Worker appeared.
The Chairman. You did not ^et the records at Baltimore, did you?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
The Chairman. Stand aside.
^^r. Randall, will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Randael. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES RANDALL, INVESTIGATOR FOR THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
The CHAiR:\rAN. Your name is Charles Randall?
Mr. Randall. That is right.
The Chairman. You are one of the investigators for this committee?
7672 UN-AMERICAN PllOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Randall. Yes, sir.
The Chair]man. Did you serve a subpeiia upon Mrs. Blumberg?
Mr. Randall. I did, sir.
The Chairman. A subpena duces tecum calling for the records of
the Communist Party for that particular area?
Mr. Randall. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did she object or make any objection to you taking
the records?
JNIr. Randall. She did not, sir.
The Chairman. That is all.
We ^Yill meet tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m., a recess was taken until 10 a. m., Friday,
April 5, 1940.)
(In pursuance to the policy of the committee, the following affidavit
submitted by Mrs. Grace Gray, of Boston, Mass.„ig included in the
record :)
Affidavit of Mrs. Grace Gray, of Boston, Mass.
Whereas my attention has been called to the fact that on page 2386 of volume
3 of the hearings of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House
of Representatives, my name is listed as being present at a "National Confedera-
tion" in 1936 at Asheville, N. C. ; and
Whereas the testimony of one .John C. Metcalfe to this effect is untrue ;
Now therefore, I, Grace Gray (Mrs. James Cunningham Gray) of Boston,
County of Suffolk, and Commonwealth of ^Massachusetts, on oath depose and
say that I did not attend any meeting of any confederation at Asheville, N. C. ;
that I have no knowledge of any such confederation ; that I have never been
in Asheville, N. C, in my life : and that if my name has been used as a member
of any such confederation or group, it has been used without my knowledge or
consent.
I further depose and say that I am not a member of any group or organization
engaged in subversive or un-American activities of any nature.
Grace Gray.
Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
Suffolk, ss:
Boston, Septemher 16, 1940.
Then appeared the deponent, Grace Gray, personally known to me, and made
oath that the above statements by her subscribed are true, before me.
[seal] Goldmann Edmitnds,
Notary Public.
My commission expires May 1, 1947.
X
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