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Full text of "Investigation of un-American propaganda activities in the United States. Hearings before a Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-fifth Congress, third session-Seventy-eighth Congress, second session, on H. Res. 282, to investigate (l) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation"

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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 



HEARINGS 

BEFOEE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

THIRD SESSION 

ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 13 

APRIL 11, 12, 19, 23, 24, 25, MAY G, 8, 9, 21, 1940 
AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 




A 



1 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

THIRD SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2 I THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
V MEXT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISI^ITION 



VOLUME 13 

APRIL 11, 12, 19, 23, 24, 25, MAY 6, 8, 9, 21, 1940 
AT WASHINGTON, D. C. 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 






UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
94931 WASHINGTON : 1940 



^ 



t^ 






SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
WASHINGTON, D. C. 

MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman 
JOHN J. DEMPSEY, New Mexico NOAH M. MASON, Illinois 

JOE STARNES, Alabama ' J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey 

JERRY VOORHIS, California 
JOSEPH E. CASEY, Massachusetts 

Robert E. Stripling, Secretary 

Robert E. Lynch, Counsel 

J. B. Matthews, Director of Research 



■ , t *•* • 



J 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Barker. Robert B 7843 

Chase, Ezra F 8007 

Cooke, Gerald 7830 

Davison. E. C 7952 

De Maio, Anthony E 779.5 

Dozenberg, Nichohis 8187 

Fraiitz. Laurent lirowii 7841 

Galleani, Huniberto 7811 

Honeycombe, John G : 7786 

Howe, Fred M 79.57. 7982. 7HS4 

Inue-s. Peter J., Jr 8a'>7 

Johnson, Ehner Lawrence 7673 

KeHer. Fred 77.57. 7767 

Lifrhtfoot, Chnule 7720 

MeCnistion. William C 7826 

McKenna. Thomas M 7709 

Onda. Andrew Rudolph 7880 

O'Shea, Thomas Humphrey 7879,7892,7928 

Powers, Frank B 7984 

Quill. Michael J._ 8093 

Rathl)orne, Mervyn 8113 

Selby, Mr!«. Walter Owens 7727 

Wallach, Maxwell M 7730 

Wolflf. Milton 7785 

til 



94931- -40— I't 1:5 A 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEIOAN^PKOPArTANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



thursday, april 11, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

Tlie conunittee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), 
presidin|j. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The committee 
will act this morning as a subcommittee composed of the chairman, 
Mr. Mason, and Mr. Voorhis. 

The first witness is Elmer Johnson. Will you please take the wit- 
nes-s stand ? Will yon raise your right hand and be sworn ? 

Mr. Elmer Johnson. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, I am ex- 
pecting my attorney here an}' minute, and I would rather wait until 
he appears. 

The Chairman. That is perfectly all right. We want you to have 
tlie benefit of counsel. You can be sworn in the meantime, however. 

Mr. Elmer Johxsox. I would rather wait until the attorney is here. 
Here he is now. 

Mr. CoHX. I had understood we were to convene at 10: 30. I apolo- 
gize for being late. 

My name is Sol H. Cohn. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand, Mr. Johnson. You sol- 
emnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Elmer Johnson. I do. 

The Chairman. Have a seat, Mr. Johnson. Will you try to speak 
loudly and as distinctly as possible, so we may hear you? Tlie acous- 
tics in this room are rather bad and we have difficulty in hearing the 
witnesses unless they speak loudly and distinctly. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, may I say for the record Mr. Johnson 
appeared here yesterday prepared to testify. We were advised there 
were no committee hearings. 

It appears from the newspapers this morning that there was no 
committee hearing yesterday because no witnesses had appeared. 
Now, I wish to make clear on the record that Mr. Johnson had been 
here. 

The Chairman. All right. Proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF ELMER LAWRENCE JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF THE 
COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN 

Mr. Matthews. Please give your full name for the record. 
Mr. Johnson. My full name is Elmer Lawrence Johnson. 

7673 



7674 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Wait just a minute. Mr. Thomas is here and the 
subcommittee is now composed of the chairman, Mr. Mason, Mr. 
Thomas, and Mr. Voorhis. You may j^roceed. 

Mr. Matiheavs. Where were you born i 

Mr. Johnson. I was born in Illinois, AVheeling, 111. 

Mr. Matthews. Wheelino;, 111.? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. When ? 

Mr. Johnson. 1904. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. HaA-e you ever gone by any other name than that 
of Elmer Lawrence Johnson? 

Mr. Johnson. I have always used the name "Elmer Johnson" and 
have been known by that name by all of my acquaintances at all times. 
However, I did use the name of Elmer Carr for self-protection. 

The Chairman. Elmer Carr? 

]Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. C-a-r-r? 

Mr. Johnson. C-a-r-r ; that is right. C-a-r-r. For the reason I had 
occasion one morning about 4 o'clock in the morning when a number 
of people smashed the door of the home in which I was living and 
ransacked the entire place. 

When these men grilled me I did not feel obligated in any way to 
give them my right name. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Johnson. Later on I found out that these gentlemen actually 
were F. B. I. men. 

Mr. Thomas. In what year was that ? 

Mr. Johnson. That was recently — during the Detroit raid. 

Mr. Thomas. What year? 

Mr. Johnson. This year. 

The Chairman. You mean outside of this year you never used any 
other name excej^t Elmer Johnson? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairinian. And you used that on the occurrence which you 
have just desciibed? It was after this occurrence that you have just 
described that you used the name of Elmer Carr ? 

Mr. Johnson. Only for that moment. 

The Chairman. Only on that occasion ? 

Mr. Johnson. Only for that moment. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, let me see — about 7 or 8 years. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give us the date when you joined? 

Mr. Johnson. It was in the early part of 1932. I don't remember 
the exact date. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you join? 

Mr. Johnson. I joined in the city of Chicago. 

Mr. Matthews. What positions have you held in the Communist 
Party, beginning from the time you joined down to the present time? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I was county secretary in Chicago. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. Johnson. That was approximately 2i/l' years ago, I believe. It 
was for a period of about a year. 



J 



UN-AMEKICAX PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7G75 

Mr. Matthews. Ami after that? 

jNIr. Johnson. And after tliat I became field orjjjanizer in Illinois. 

Mr. !Maitiikws. How lono- did yon occnpy that position? 

Air. Johnson. Several niontlis. 

Mr. Matthews. What was yonr next position ? 

]\Ir. Johnson. Came to Detroit. 

]\rr. Matthews. When did you o-o to Detroit? 

Mr. Johnson. I think it was a year a<^o last January. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is your position in the Communist Party 
in that State? 

Mr. Johnson. State secretary. 

Mr. Matthews. You are State secretary for tlie Communist Party 
in Miclii^-an ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is riolit. 

]\Ir. ]\Iatthews. Does the territory under your jurisdiction include 
anvthinii' more than the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. It does not include the Upper Peninsula. 

Mr. Matthews. It does not include the Upper Peninsula of 
Michio-an? 

Mr. Johnson. That is ri^ht. 

Mr. AIatthews. Does it include any territorj- outside of the State 
of Michiofan? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio was your predecessor in the State secretary- 
.'^hip in ]Michi<ran? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, j^rior to that there was a committee of three 
that assumed the leadership of the party there. 

Mr. Matthews. What were their names — it is a matter of public 
record, I take it. 

Mr. Johnson. I am not sure exactly who they were, at the present 
time. 

j\Ir. ^Matthews. Was one of them William Weinstone? 

Mr. Johnson. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. One of them? 

Mr. Johnson. I believe that was before ni}^ time. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Well, who were they from your own recollection? 

Air. Johnson. Well, I recall Earl Reno. 

Mr. AIatthews. Is that R-e-n-o? 

Mr. Johnson. That is rioht. I don't remember the others because 
it is rather vague in my memory. 

Mr. Matthews. How long had that trio occupied the secretariat? 

Mr. Johnson. It was for a very brief period of time — just a few 
months. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the secretary was prior to this 
period when the three men were in charge? 

Mr. Johnson. William AVeinstone, I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. AVilliam Weinstone. Xow, do you know how long 
William Weinstone was State secretary for Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Approximately. 

Mr. Johnson. I couldn't say. 

Mr. AlA'iTnE;\vs. Where are the headquarters of the Communist 
Party in Michigan — what is the address? 

Mr. Johnson. 5969 Fourteenth Street. 



7676 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. What is the size of the membership under your 
jurisdiction or in the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, a little over 2,000. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you arrive at that figure ? 

Mr. Johnson. It is an approximate figure. 

]Mr. Matthews. How do you approximate it? 

Mr. Johnson. Reports, reports from the various congressional dis- 
tricts, and so on. 

Mr. Matthews. How often are those reports made? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, once a year and then in between times there is 
a check-up. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there an annual check-up of the membership 
from your office ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you speak louder, Mr. Johnson? We can't hear 
you ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. There is an annual check-up. 

]\Ir. Matthews. When was the last membership report made to 
your headquarters from the branches or districts or congressional 
districts? 

Mr. Johnson. Repuorts are still coming in. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Have you ever traveled abroad ? 

Mr. Johnson. No; I haven't. I have been in Canada. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been anywhere else outside of the 
United States? 

Mr. Johnson. Outside of Canada for a day or two at the most. I 
think I was there 4 days in 1926. 

Mr. Matthews. You were not a member of the Communist Party at 
that time? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. You have never been in Canada since you became a 
member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. Been there once to deliver a radio broadcast. 

Mr. Matthews. Under what auspices? 

Mr. Johnson. Under the auspices of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was that? j 

Mr. Johnson. Riffht across the river from Detroit. ; 

Mr. Matthews. Windsor? 

Mr. Johnson. It is a Detroit station. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you bring with you the records of the Com- 
munist Party of the State of Michigan as called for in the subpena 
which was served on you? 

Mr. Johnson. What records, specifically, are you referring to ? 

Mr. Matthews. The ones called for in the subpena which was served 
on you. 

Mr. Johnson. Would you be more specific, because it refers to quite 
a number of records? 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have a copy of your subpena with you? 

Mr. Johnson. My attorney has it in his possession, I believe. 

Mr. CoHN. I think — I don't have it in my possession. Just a mo- 
ment, Mr. Chairman ; I do have it, I think. No ; I am sorry. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, Mr. Johnson, did you bring with you any 
records of correspondence of the Communist Party in Michigan ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7677 

Mr. Johnson. We have no correspondence at the present time in the 
oflSce. 

jNIr. Matthews. What did yon do with it? 

Mr. Johnson. It is destroyed from day to day as it is received. 

Mr. Matthews. Yon have no letters on file of any kind pertaining 
to the work of the Comnnmist Party ? 

Mr. Johnson. Not in the office. 

Mr. Matthews. Where are they? 

Mr. Johnson. We haven't them anywhere, as far as I know. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. When were they destroyed? 

j\Ir. Johnson. Each day as 

jNIr. JMatthews. Yes ; bnt np until a certain period, I take it, you did 
have correspondence filed consisting 

^h: Johnson. We did. 

Mr. Matthews. Consisting of back correspondence in your office; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, sometimes we permitted it to accumulate. 

]\Ir. Matthews. When you took over the office a little more than a 
year ago there was back correspondence in the files in the office, was 
there not? 

Mr. Johnson. There was a lot of material that was in many respects 
not of immediate service and 

The Chairman. He is asking you about correspondence. Was there 
any correspondence — letters at the time you took over the office? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, there was. 

The Chairman. Letters? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you destroy that? 

Mr. Johnson. That was destroyed during a process — during a 
period of a number of weeks — a number of months. 

Mr. Matthew\s. AVho ordered this correspondence destroyed? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Who gave instructions that all correspondence 
should be destroyed from day to day ? 

Mr. Johnson. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any suggestions or instructions 
from anyone else to that effect ? 

Mr. Johnson. Xo. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. You acted entirely on your own responsibility ? 

Mr. Johnson, That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In instituting the procedure of destroying all 
correspondence from day to day? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. What is the purpose of the destruction of the cor- 
respondence from day to day? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, we generally act upon the correspondence im- 
mediately as we receive it and there is, in most cases, no need to keep 
it on record. Sometimes it can serve to fall into the hands — that is, 
names of i)eople, innocent people fall into the hands of those who 
are trying to smear these innocent people who communicate with the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the approximate number of letters which 
you receive from day to day — that is each day ? 



7678 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I would say, of course, newspapers we receive 
in the mail. I don't think you were referring to them. 

Mr. Matthews. No ; I am referring to letters. 

Mr. Johnson. Personal correspondence? 

Mr. Mattheavs. Yes. 

Mr. Johnson. Sometimes an average of one per day; sometimes 
two; sometimes we don't receive any for a day or two. I think that 
is an approximate estimation. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you keep any carbon copies of any of your 
out-going mail ? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you bring with you any records of the names 
and addresses of branch functionaries — branch or unit functionaries 
in the State of Michigan ? 

Mr. Johnson. No ; I cannot. I cannot deliver or give such material 
as names and addresses of members or branch organizers of the 
party to this committee for the reason that the chairman 

The CiiAiRAMN. What he asked you was, if you brought with you 
any of tlie records showing the secretaries of the branches. That is 
the question he asked you. 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. You did not bring those records? 

Mr. Johnson. No ; I understood the question but I would like to 
given a reason. 

The Chairman. The question now to you is whether you brought 
the records. Did you bring them or not? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

The Chairman. You did not bring the records ? 

Mr. Johnson. But I would like to get the reason 

The Chairman. Well, wait until we ask you one or two questions. 
Do you have any such records? 

Mr. Johnson. No; we don't. 

The Chairman. Then there is no use to talk about reasons if you 
have no records. You couldn't bring something that you don't have. 

Mr. Johnson. It would be unlawful 

The Chairman. But you say you have no records. Of course, you 
can't bring them. 

Mr. Johnson. It would be unlawful to give this committee such 
names. 

Mr. Thomas. You haven't got any records, so how could you bring 
them? 

Mr. Johnson. That is true. 

The Chairman. Then what is the use of giving a reason? 

Mr. Johnson. There is an additional reason. 

Mr. Thomas. The only reason you want to give a reason is to use 
this committee now as a sounding board, just like all the rest of you 
Communists. 

Mr. CoiiN. I object to the statement on the record. I move it be 
expunged from the record. 

The Chairman. All right ; let us proceed. 

Mr. Johnson. I think it was important to submit a reason. 

The Chairman. You have said you have no records. How can 
you give a reason for not producing records that you don't have, 
according to your statement? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7679 

Mr. JoHNsox. Because I believe that this committee has no power 
to ask for such records. 

Tile CuAiHMAN. That is not goino- to be pennitte(h Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you liave a Connnunist Party organization in 
each of tlie congressional districts of the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. Not all of them. 

Mr. MArriiEWS. Now, how many congressional districts do you 
have an organization in? 

^Ir. floHNSON. Well, it would be hard to answer that question 
accui-ately because in certain congressional districts we have only a 
few members, and then it would be hard to the — it would be diffi- 
cult to say whether that would be characterized as an organization, 
and of course in other congressional districts we have — — 

Mr. Matthews. Approximately in how many do you have organi- 
zations to the extent that you have functionaries who supervise the 
work of the party in any respect in those districts? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, let us see. lii a majority of the congressional 
districts of Detroit and several out of the city. 

Mr. Matthews. How many would that be? Ten or twelve in all? 

Mr. Johnson. Not quite that many. 

Mr. Matthews. Eight, perhaps? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. About eight congressional districts you have party 
organizations in? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give the titles of the functionaries 
who have charge of the affairs of the congressional districts in the 
Comnumist Party ? 

Mr. Johnson. [No answer.] 

Mr. Matthews. What do you call the officers of the organization in a 
congressional district ? 

The Chairman. While you are conferring with your attorney I want 
to make the announcement that the committee has a quorum present 
and is operating now as a full committee. The quorum is Mr. Casey, 
Mr. Voorhis, the chairman, Mr. Mason, and Mr. Thomas. Now pro- 
ceed. What was the question ? 

Mr. Matthews. I asked the witness what the title of the function- 
aries are who served in the congressional district organizations for 
the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Johnson. Well, we call them "section organizers." 

Mr. Matthews. Each cf)ngi^essional district that has an organiza- 
tion has a section organizer? 

IVIr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In addition to the section organizer what other 
functionaries are there in each congressional district? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, there is an executive committee. 

Mr. INIatthews. How many members are there on the executive 
committee? 

Mr. Johnson. Approximately from five to nine. 

Mr. Matthews. In addition "to these what other functionaries are 
there ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, there are the branch organizers. 



7680 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. The branch organizer would be a subdivision of the 
congressional district? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. For the district itself do you have a membership 
director ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes ; we have a membership director. 

The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder, if you can, please, 
sir? 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have a treasurer or financial secretary in 
each district? 

Mr. Johnson. In each congressional district? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; we do. 

Mr. Matthews. What do you call that person. Financial secre- 
tary? 

Mr, Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. What other functionaries can you think of? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, we have educational directors and, of course, 
there are educational directors in the unit as well. 

Mr. Matthews. I am speaking of the districts. Do you have lit- 
erature ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir ; literature — Daily Worker — literature agent. 
Daily Worker agent. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Literature agent? 

Mr. Johnson. Daily Worker agent. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the Daily Worker agent in addition to the 
literature agent ? 

Mr. Johnson. It is sometimes true. 

Mr. Matitiews. Are there any other functionaries in the districts? 

Mr, Johnson. Well, there are in many cases, but it is not uniform 
all the way through. 

Mr. Matthews. What would be some of the others that would not 
be uniform ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well 

Mr. Mattiieavs. Do you have a man in charge of trade-union matters 
in some of the districts ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, sometimes we have commissions — commissions 
to give study to certain problems or phases. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you always speak as quietly as you are speaking 
now, Mr. Johnson ? 

Mr. Casey. I think it is getting to be a colloquy. You both have 
lowered your voices. 

The Chairman. Speak a little louder, gentlemen. It is difficult to 
hear. The question was whether or not you had anyone who is in 
charge 

Mr. Matthews. In charge of trade-unions or labor-union matters in 
the districts. Now, what was your answer to that? 

Mr. Johnson. The answer is "no." 

The Chairman. You have no one in charge of trade-union matters? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Have you had in the past anyone in charge of trade- 
union matters? 

Mr. Johnson. Not since I have been there. As far as I know, we 
have never had any such. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7681 

Mr. Matthews. Noav, in the State or<Tanization itself, in addition to 
;\oiirself, what officers are there in the party? 

IVIr. Johnson. (No answer.) 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Yon are State secretary? 

Mr. Johnson. Tliat is ri^ht. 

Mr. Matthews. Do yon liave a State administrative secretary in 
addition to yonrself ? 

Mr. Johnson. We liave a financial secretary and we have a campaign 
mana<rer in the comin<T; elections. 

Mr. JNIatttikws. Do yon liave an administrative secretary? 

j\ir. Johnson. No: we don't. AVe have an organizational secretary 
which takes in that class. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Wonld he be called a district organizer? 

Mr. Johnson. He wonld be called an organizational secretary. 

IVIr. Matthews. Is there a memborship director for the State? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, the organizational secretary also assumes that 
capacity at the present time. 

Mr. ISIatthews. Now, what are the subdivisions of the party within 
the congressional districts? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, the subdivisions of the party within the con- 
gressional districts are branches. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the smallest of the subdivisions in the dis- 
tricts? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. And there are no intermediate subdivisions between 
the branches and the district organization? 

Mr. Johnson. Between the branches — well, there is a section — a 
section and its committee. 

Mr, JNIatthews. The section is a subdivision of the congressional 
district, is it? 

Mr, Johnson. That is, the section leadership is the congressional 
leadership. 

Mr. Matthews. Congressional district leadership ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, is the congressional district the same as the 
section in the territory covered? 

Mr, Johnson. I think so; yes. 

]\Ir. IMatthews. Well, tlie branch is the smallest subdivision within 
the congressional district or section ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. How many branches of the Communist Party are 
there in your jurisdiction? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I would have to give an approximate figure; 
perhaps about 60. 

Mr. ]Matthews. How manv of these 60 branches are in the city 
of Detroit ? 

Mr. Johnson. Abont half, I would say, 

Mr. Matthews. In Avhat other center is there a number of branches? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, in the outlying towns, I think. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there any other city in Michigan that has a 
number of branches — three, four, five, or six ? 

Mr. Johnson, Scattered. 

]\fr. Matthews. Branches in one city? 



7682 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Johnson. Scattered; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What are those cities? 

Mr. Johnson. We have a party in Flint. 

Mr. Matthews. How many branches are there in Flint? 

Mr. Johnson. I am not certain exactly just about how many. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, what would be the approximate number? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I would not like to give any estimation be- 
cause I am afraid it would not be accurate. 

Mr. Matthews. A half a dozen or a dozen? 

Mr. Johnson. Approximately. 

Mr. Matthews. You get regular reports from them, do you not? 

Mr. Johnson. Reports are coming in as I indicated. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the first time that reports have come in 
from these branches during your secretaryship in Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. They are not completed yet. No; it is not the first 
time they have been coming in. 

Mr. Matthews. How many branch reports have you up to date 
from the city of Flint? 

Mr. Johnson. I don't remember. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Would Flint rank next to Detroit in the number 
of branches of the Communist Party in Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. I think so. 

Mr. Matthews. What city or center of population would come 
after Flint? 

Mr. Johnson. AVell, I believe the rest of them are more or less 
evenly divided. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, as to the location of the membership. You 
say you have something more than 2,000 members in the State of 
Michigan. How many of those members are within the Detroit area? 

Mr. Johnson. AjDproximately half or a little more. 

Mr. Matthews. A little more than half? 

Mr. Johnson. Approximately, I think so. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Is the membership increasing? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Has there been a dropping off in membership at 
any time during your secretaryship in the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. 'Well, it works both ways. It drops off and they 
come in. 

Mr. Matthews. As to the composition of the membership, what 
professions or occupations predominate in the membership in the 
Communist Party in Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, the membership is in the industries of De- 
troit — in the building trades, in the steel, rubber, auto industry — 
in the agricultural region. 

Mr. Matthews. Approximately how many members do you have 
in the steel industry in Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. I cannot give you an exact figure on that or even 
an approximate figure because the reports are still coming in, Mr. 
Chairman. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, the witness has gotten down to the 
whis])ering stage again. Isn't there some way we can get him to 
talk louder? 

The Chairman. Speak a little louder, please. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7683 

Mr. Johnson. I say that the ro})orts are coming in now during 
this period of check-up on membership. 

Mr. TiiojiAS. Then you do have some records ? 

Mr. JoiixsoN. We get reports, verbal reports. 

Mr. Thomas. You get leports. Don't you consider those reports 
as records'? 

Mr, Johnson. ]\rental records; yes. 

Mr. Thomas. But are the reports coming in verbally or written ? 

Mr. Johnson. They come in verbally. 

Mr. Thomas. No Avritten report ? 

Mr. Johnson. We don't have any written reports. 

Mr. Matthews. You receive no Avritten reports { 

Mr. Johnson. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. When do you expect this reporting to be com- 
pleted ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, of course, w^e want it to be completed as soon 
as possible. 

Mr. Matthews. When did it begin ? 

Mr. Johnson. (Xo answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. When were the district branches instructed to 
make these reports? 

Mr. Johnson. Around the first of the year. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they given any time limit on reporting? 

Mr. Johnson. Xo. We expect the reports to be completed within 
the next few weeks. 

]Mr. ^Matthews. Did you have all the functionaries throughout the 
State assembled to receive these instructions or did you write them 
letteris? 

Mr. Johnson. They received letters as well as verbal instructions 
on the matter — discussions on the problem. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Were they given a blank to indicate what type 
of information was required in these reports? 

Mr. Johnson. Dues paying members. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Was that all they were asked for, was dues pay- 
ing members? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

]Mr. Matthews. They were not asked about the occupations or 
professions of the individual members? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, we expect a verbal report on that. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they asked to give that kind of report? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; verbal reports. 

Mr. Matthews. In addition to asking for the number of dues pay- 
ing members they were asked also for occupational information of 
members? AMiat other types of information w^ere required? 

Ml-. Johnson. AVell. we required, of course, w-e wanted to know dues 
l)ayment, and we wanted to know where they work — wliat industries 
they worked in. Wanted to know the age. nationality, and so on. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. ('liairma]i. I would like to ask a question there. 

Tlie Chairman. Mr. Thomas. 

]\Ir. 'J'noMAS. Mr. Johnson, if you don't keep a record of all these 
i-eports that come in. wlio is it that keeps all this in his mind ? Who is 
the one who has got this exceptional memory and can j-etain all this 
information that you receive? 



7684 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I do. 

Mr. Thomas. You remember all that ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Then, Mr. Matthe\\s, I think you ought to- ask him 
questions on just what all the reports show at the present time? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. To date, then, what is the complexion of the 
membership with respect to nationality? 

Mr. Johnson. We have not completed that report. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you have it in your mind up to date, you just 
stated. 

Mr. Johnson. You see, we expect to have a convention 

Mr. Matthews. Yes — all right. 

Mr. Johnson. And at the convention we will receive all these reports 
•and then we will have a general view of the status of the party. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, never mind what you are going to learn. 
Wliat do you have in your mind now with respect to that information ? 

Mr. Johnson. I don't know ; I cannot say definitely outside of an ap- 
proximate figure that I have given you— 2,000. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the number of members. Now, I am asking 
you about the nationality of the membership as it has been verbally 
repoi'ted to you and retained by you in memory u}> to the pi'esent time. 

Mr. Johnson. Well, the vast majority of the woi-kers in our party, 
of course, are American-boi'U workers in shops in the industries that 
I have indicated. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the only form in which you have retained 
iliat information ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is the only form. 

Mr. Matthews. What about the age groups of the party? You say 
that you required that information — you received verbal reports with 
respect to the ages of the members, and you said that you are the 
person who remembers that. Now, what is the situation in the party 
Avith respect to age ? 

Mr. Johnson. But. Mr. Chairman. I explained on the age limit or 
'on the age composition, and so on, these other details, we will be able 
to com])lete this general outlook and report which the convention 

The Chairman. Well, he means up to date. 

Mr. JoirNsoN. That is what I say. I cannot give you figures on 
age limits. 

The Chairman. You don't know, in other words? 

Mr. Johnson, That is right. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, if he keeps it all in his mind. hoAv is 
he ever going to be able to complete it if he doesn't know at this date 
where it stands ? 

Mr. Johnson. I will know at the time of the convention. I will 
know all these things very definitely. 

Mr. Thomas. Even though you don't know now, you will know at 
the time of the convention? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

INIr. Thomas. In other words, your memory fails you now, but it 
will not fail you at the time of the convention? 

Mr. Johnson. No; that is not true. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you already received any reports at all with 
respect to the age composition of any fraction of the members of 
Micliigan? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7685 

Mr. Johnson. I have not; not for this year. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you received any reports at all with respect 
to nationality of any of the party members in the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. I liave not. 

Mr. Matthkavs. Have j^ou received any reports at all with respect 
to occupations of the membei-s of the party in Michigan ? 

Mr. Johnson. I have received some reports on occupations; yes. 

]Mr. Matthews. All right; now, what are the figures on thai? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, the figures are still coming in, and, as I indi- 
cated in my previous remarks, the great majority — the great majority 
of workers in the industries of Michigan — in the industries of Mich- 
igan in the 

The Chairman. Well, you have professional people in there, don't 
you ? 

]Mr. Johnson. Yes ; we have — yes ; we have professional people. 

The Chairman. Doctors? 

^Ir. Johnson, Well, the professional people are in the minority, I 
would say. 

The Chairman. But you do have some lawyers and doctors and 
teachers; is that correct? 

Mr. Johnson. We have some. 

The Chairman. All right : proceed. 

Mr. ]\LvTTHEWS. Do you know the names of the section organizers 
in the congressional districts? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; I know their names. 

j\Ir. IMatthews. How many such pei^ons are there? 

Mr. Johnson. I gave you an approximate hgure previously in 
which I think it is eight; is that right? 

INIr. Matthews. Yes. Do you know who those eight persons are? 

Mr. Johnson. I do. 

Mr. JMattheavs. Who are the section organizers whose districts are 
within the Detroit area? Will you please name them? 

Mr. Johnson. I cannot submit any names of any individuals to this 
committee. 

The Chairman. You decline to give them? 

Mr. Johnson. On the ground that the chairman of this committee 
has stated in the record to the effect that workers in the shops 
should be laid off — should be discharged by the employers, and I 
don't want to submit any names to a blacklist because it is unlawful. 

Mr. Thomas. There it goes. That is the same old story. 

The Chairman. You decline to answer the question? 

Mr. Johnson. On that ground. 

The Chairman. All right, you have given the grounds. The 
Chair directs you to answer. Do you still decline to answer? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline on the grounds 

The Chairman. Well, you have already stated the groinuls. Do 
you decline to answer even though the Chair directs you to do so? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the financial secretary of the party in the 
State of Michigan ? 

^Ir. Johnson. He is a worker. 

Mr. Matthews. What is his name? 



7686 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Johnson. That depends upon a living on the industries of 
Detroit. 

Mr. Matthews. What is his name ? 

Mr. Johnson. I cannot give his name for the same reason. 

The Chairman. Now, isn't that, as a matter of fact, a public 
record, your financial secretary? Haven't you had that printed on 
your literature? 

Mr, Johnson. But I do not want to 

The Chairman. I am asking you, Isn't it a fact that his name 
has been printed on literature of the l^arty ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is true. 

The Chairman. Isn't it true ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you decline to tell us what his name is? 

Mr. Johnson. For the reasons I have given. 

The Chairman. You have already stated your reasons. The Chair 
directs you to tell us what his name is. Do you still decline? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir; because I believe I would like 

The Chairman. You have stated your reasons. 

Mr. Johnson. I would like to state another reason. 

The Chairman. The Chair has been fair to you in permitting you 
to state your reason. 

Mr. CoHN. Will the Chair permit the witness to state his addi- 
tional reason? 

The Chairman. With reference to this ]iarticular man? 

Mr. Cohn. With reference to his declination to state any name. 

The Chairman. With respect to this name — confine it to this 
name. 

The Witness. Because, in addition to the reasons that I have 
already stated, the ])olitical beliefs of an individual and his affilia- 
tions to political parties are of his own — are his own private business. 
It is a private matter and that the Constitution grants every indi- 
vidual that right to belong to any political party. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, I want to get one point cleared up there. Mr. 
Johnson, in other words, you believe that the Communist Party 

Mr. Johnson. I would like to give an additional reason. 

Mr. Thomas. Wait a minute. 

Mr. Johnson. Just a moment. 

Mr. Thomas. You believe that the Communist Party is a political 
party ? 

Mr. Johnson. I would like to complete my answer. Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, now, just answer that question. In other 
words, you believe the Communist Party is a ])olitical party? 

Mr. Johnson. Of course. 

Mr. Thomas. You do believe that, don't you ? 

Mr. Johnson. Why, of course, I believe it is a political party, legally 
recognized as such by the Government of the United States. 

Mr. Voorhis. Well, if so, Mr. Johnson, then don't you believe it 
should operate in an open and aboveboard manner. If so, then why 
shouldn't the names of the leaders of the party, the men who are re- 
sponsible in these various sections, why shouldn't that be a matter 
of public knowledge? 



UN-AMERICAN rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7687 

Mr. JoiiNsox. The i)aity operates in an above, open, legal manner 
the same as every other political pai-ty. There is nothing secret about 
our organization in the least. If I decline to give names of individuals 
I stand on my constitutional rights and I stand on the basis of ex- 
perience that the i)eo})le of Detroit have had with the connnittee here. 

Mr. VooKiiis. A\'ell, vhat 1 mean is, if people who are responsible 
for the conduct of a political organization, if their names are secret, 
then I don't see how you can say that it is all open. 

.Mr. Johnson. But their names are not secret. 

Mr. A^KHJUis. They aiv not? 

^Ir. Thomas. You are keeping them secret. We have asked for 
certain names and you refuse to divulge the names. 

Mr. Johnson. C3n the basis of the reasons I have submitted to this 
committee. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Johnson, do you know Joseph Kowalski? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to discuss' any names — any individuals for 
the same reasons mentioned. 

The CHAuniAN. You decline to answer the question, in other words, 
for the reasons heretofore stated, is that correct^ 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer the question. Do 
you still decline? 

^Ir. Johnson. Will you repeat that question more clearly? 

Mr. Matthews. I asked you if you know or are you personally ac- 
quainted with Joseph Kowalski? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I decline to answer that question on the ground 
that his name or any other name brouglit into this committee and made 
public in the papers, may have a discriminatory effect upon him — 
m:iy hinder his opportunity of getting a job. 

The Chairman. All right, the Chair directs you to answer the 
question and ^ou decline to do so, is that correct ? 

Mr. Johnson. On the reasons submitted. 

The Chairman. All right, let ns proceed. 

Mr. Maithews. It is true, is it not, that Joseph Kowalski is the 
financial secretary? 

Mr. CoHN. Excuse me just a minute. 

Mr. Matthfavs. It is true, is it not, that Joseph Kowalski is the 
limincial secretary of the Communist Party in the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. For all of the reason^ stated before, I cannot answer 
that question. 

The Chairman. The" Chair directs you to answer the question. Do 
you decline to answer the question, is that correct? 

]Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Ma'itheavs. What is the name of the campaign manager in the 
State of Michigan in this presidential election year? 

Mr. Johnson. For the same reasons, Mr. Chairman, I decline to 
answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer and you decline 
to do so. is that right? 

]Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Has the name of the campaign manager in the 
State of Michigan been announced already? 

94931— 40— vol. 13 2 



7688 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Johnson. It is being announced at the present time. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, has it been announced? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, in some places it has. 

Mr. Matthews. In some places in the State of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

^Ir. Matthews. In what way has it been announced? 

Mr. Johnson. Through public meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, when did you last see Roy Hudson, Mr. 
Johnson ? 

Mr. Johnson. I think that is a personal question and 

The Chairman. Let me ask you this : Do you know Roy Hudson ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; I know Roy Hudson. 

The Chairman. You know Roy Hudson? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What is Roy Hudson's position in the Comnmnist 
Party of the United States? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. You know, Mr. Johnson, that Roy Hudson is 
the executive secretary of the Communist Party of the United 
States? 

Mr. Johnson. I did not know that, i\Ir. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Well, wlnit is his position in the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Johnson. To be frank with you, Mr. Chairman, I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. You knew that Jack Stachel was the executive 
secretary of the Communist Party in the United States, did you 
not, for a nnmber of years? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; I think he still is, if I am not mistaken — 
I am not sure. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you seen Roy Hudson in Detroit within 
the past month ? 
Mr. Johnson. No. 

Mr. IMatthews. Have you seen Roy Hudson in Detroit during 
the present year of 1940 at any time? 
Mr. Johnson. I will try to 



Mr. Matthews. In other words, you have sometime in the 

Mr. Johnson. I don't remember. 

Mr. Matthews. Not distant past seen Roy Hudson in Detroit 
but you don't remember the date exactly? 

Mr. Johnson. I saw him in New York, Mr. Matthews, some time 
ago. 

Mr. Matthews. AA^hat were you seeing Roy Hudson for or about? 

Mr. Johnson. I attended a national committee meeting of our 
party in the city of New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, what was your hesitation about stating 
if you had seen him in Detroit during the year 1940? 

^Ir. Cohn. May I say for the record there was no intentional 
hesitation on the part of the witness. 

The Chairman. Did you see him in Detroit during 1940? 

Mr. Johnson. No: not during 1940. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you last see him in Detroit? 

Mr. Johnson. I believe it was — I can't remember or give you the 
exact month, last year some time. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7(389 

ISIr. MArniEWS. It was towurd the eiul of the year, was it not? 

Mr. Johnson. No; it was not. ^ , ^ , , 

Mr. Matphews. Wlien did vou last see Jack Stachel. and where ? 

Mr! Johnson. I saw him nt the national connnittee meeting, the 
one held, the one preceding the recent one. 

Mr. ^lATrHEWS. Yon haven't seen him recently? 

Mr. Johnson. I haven't. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Has Jack Stachel been m Detroit, to yonr knowl- 
edge, recently? 

Mr. Johnson. Not to my knowledge. 

ISIr. Matthews. Do you know John Schmies? 

Ml'. Johnson. Yes; I know John Schmies. 

Mr. ISIatihews. x\.nd you know him as a member of the Communist 
Party, do you not ? 

;Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Maithews. Yon have knoWn him for a number of years, have 

you not I 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. As a member of the Ctmimunist Party ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. John Schmies is quite well known as a member of 
the Communist Party, is he not? 

The Chairman. I wonder if we may have some order and quiet 
in the room. 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I did not get the witness' answer. You said "I 
think so"? 

Mr. Johnson. I think he is. 

INIr. ^Matthews. Is Jolm Schmies in Detroit at the present time? 

]Mr. Johnson. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Has he been there recently? 

Mr. Johnson. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matiiiews. Who is the organizational secretary for the State 
of Michigan? 

Mr. Johnson. For the same reasons and all of the reasons I have 
stated prior. I cannot give this committee that information. 

The Chairman. You decline to answer the question asked you ? 

]\Ii-. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chair^ian. The Chair directs you to answer the question, and 
you decline to do so? 

Mr. Johnson. For all the reasons mentioned. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

]Mr. INIatthews. Will you please explain the operations of the 
national con.trol commission, Mr. Johnson. 

Mr. Johnson. I have never been a member of that committee and 
therefore I would not be in a position to speak about its functions or 
its operations. 

Mr. Mat'ihi.ws. You know there is a national control commission 
in the Communist Party, do you not? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I am not so sure at the present moment. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean you think it may have been abolished 
since j'ou had 

Mr. Johnson. I am not sure. 



7690 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Intimation about it ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you last know of its existence? 

Mr. JoHNSoK. I don't know whether it is in existence or whether 
it is not in existence. I never participated in any of its sessions and 
was never there, so I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Matthews. When the national control commission was in 
existence, according to your information, what were its functions? 

Mr. Johnson. To hear complaints and grievances, and so forth — 
to settle these comj^laints and grievances. 

Air. Matthews. Who is the head of the national control commis- 
sion of the Communist Party of the United States? 

Mr. Johnson. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever known who was the head at any 
time of the national control commission? 

Mr. Johnson. No; I don't. 

Mr. Matthews. Do yo^i know Chailes Dirba ? 

Mr. Johnson. No; I don't. 

Mr. Matthews. You do or you do not? 

Mr. CoHN. He said, "No; I'don't." 

Mr. Matthews. Did j^ou ever hear of Charles Dirba? 

Mr. Johnson. The name is unfamiliar. 

Mr. Mattheavs. ^ou never heard the name to your recollection? 

jNIr. Johnson. That is right ; to my recollection. 

The Chairman. Do you know Nicholas Dozenberg? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

The Chairman. You never lieard of him? 

Mr. Johnson. The first time I ever heard of him was wlien I saw 
his name in the pa])er. 

The Chairman. You never met him? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. As a member of the Communist Party, Mr. John- 
son, you are acquainted with the constitution of the party, are you 
not? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the constitution of the American Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Johnson. I am. 

Mr. Matthews. You have read that document more tlian once 
in your life? 

Mr. Johnson. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you familiar with its contents? 

Mr. Johnson. I am. 

Mr. Matthews. Don't you know that the functions of the national 
control commission are set forth rather ex])licitly in the constitution 
of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Johnson. That is what I explained, that its reasons are to 
settle grievances and to make adjustments of it in dealing with 
personal matters of the party. 

Mr. Matthews. I understood you to liave some doubts as about 
whether it now exists. 

Mr. Johnson. I have. I am not certain. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7(391 

Mr. Matthews. Hiive you heard rumors that it had been abol- 
ished ^ 

Mr. JoHXsoN. No; I didn't. 

Mr. JNIatthews. Has anyone suggested to you it might have been 
abolished then^ 

Mr. Johnson. Xo. 

^Ir. Matthews. Then the doubt about its existence is something 
that has arisen exclusively 

^Ir. Johnson. I am not sure about its existence. I don't want to 
say anything I cannot definitely confirm. 

Mr. Matthews. On the same general principle that you could not 
prove that Detroit still exists since you are here ? 

Mr. CoHN. I object to this line of questioning as argumentative. 

]Mr. jVIatthews. I want to know what the reason is why the witness 
doesn't know about the National Control Commission, if he has any 
valid reason other than the fact he isn't 

Mr. Cohn. I object to the question as improper. 

The Chairman. Why did you say you had a doubt about the exist- 
ence of the National Control Commission when provision is made in 
the constitution for it as a permanent adjunct to the party? 

Mr. Johnson. When I used the term "doubt" I meant it in the sense 
that I was not certain that it was in existence now. I am not certain — 
I am not sure because I haven't participated in any of its sessions. I 
haven't received any communications from it. I have had no dealings 
with it. 

The Chairman. All right. 

]Mr. ]Matthews. Have any" members of the Communist Party been 
expelled in your jurisdiction during the past 12 or 13 months ? 

^Ir. Johnson. Yes, sir. We have expelled some stool pigeons — 
agents in our ranks. 

^Ir. Matthews. How many have been expelled from the party in 
your jurisdiction? 

Mr. Johnson. I am not prepared to give an exact figure on it, but 
M'e have expelled a number of them, people who have collaborated 
vrith the employers trying to wreck the union. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you expelled a hundred or so? 

Mr. Johnson. No ; that figure would be much too high. 

Mr. Matthews. Fifty? 

]\lr. Johnson. That figure would also be high. I would say ap- 
proximately a half a dozen. 

The Chairman. Were their cases handled by the Control Commis- 
sion ? 

Mr. Johnson. They were handled by the branches of the party. 

The Chairman. Was the matter referred at any time to the National 
Control Commission? 

jNIr. Johnson. The matter was referred to the State executive com- 
mittee. 

The Chairman. State executive committee? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did they in turn refer it to the National Control 
Commission i 

Mr. Johnson. We sent — that is the one who is in charge of the 
disciplinary connnittee in our own party in the State of Michigan, 
refers these matters to the Control Commission of the ])arty. 



7692 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. What did you do ? The- branch offices refers it to> 
you? 

Mr. Johnson. The branch acts on it. 

The Chairman. And refers the matter to tlie State committee? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. And the State committee refers it to some local 
official in the State who is connected with the Control Commission? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

The Chairman. Who is he after the State committee? 

Mr. Johnson. The State control commission refers the matter to- 
the National Control Commission. 

The Chairman. Control commission ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. I should use the term "'State disci- 
plinary committee." 

The Chairman. And the National Control Commission has tlie finali 
say ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Who repoi'ts from your State to the National Con- 
trol Commission in sucli cases involving expulsion ? 

Mr. Johnson. For the reasons previously stated, I cannot divulge- 
the name. 

Tlie Chairman. He asked you wliat official; is that right? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Johnson. The head of the disci])linary committee. 

The Ch.airman. What is his title? '■'Chairman of the disciplinary 
committee" ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Has anyone been expelled from the party in Mich- 
igan during tlie month of A])ril 1940? 

Mr. Johnson. I don't think so. 

Mr. Matthews. During the month of March 1940 ? 

Mr. Johnson. Not this year, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Mattheavs. You don't recall anyone who has been expelled dur- 
ing the year 1940? 

Mr. Johnson. No ; I don't. 

The Chairman. I did not get this very clear. Mr. Johnson, you 
say you have been in the party since what year? Was it 1900 and 
what? 

Mr. Johnson. 1932. 

The Chairman. 1932? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. I would like to have — 1932. 

The Chairman. What has been your occupation during that period f 
Where have you worked ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, during that period? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Johnson. Of course, during the time I was county secretary at 
Chicago 



"i^^ 



The Chairman. Of the party ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. I am talking about in any industry or any other 
work outside of the party Avork. Have you done any work outside of 
the party Avork since 1932 ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVmES 7693 

Tlie Chairman. What Avas that work ? 

Mr. Johnson. I am a painter l)v trade. 

The Chahjman. You are a })aiuter by trade? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. I was secretar}' of one of the largest 
painters' local unions in the country. 

The Chairman. Largest? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. What was that ? 

Mr. Johnson. 037. 

The (^hairman. What ? 

Mr. Johnson. Painters' Local Union 637. 

The Chairman. That is in Chicago ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is in Chicago. 

The Chapman. How long were you secretary? From what year 
to what year? 

Mr. Johnson. I think it was 1934. 

The Chairman. 1934. During that one year you were secretary 
of that local? 

]\Ir. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chahiman. Well, did you receive a salary as secretary of the 
local? 

Mr. Johnson. I did as secretary of the local. 

The Chairman. And that was your w^ork during that particular 
year? 

]Mr. Johnson. Well, it was not a salary. I had to work in the 
shop in addition to that. 

The Chairman. During that time did you have a position with 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Johnson. No. I was a member of the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Just a member, but you had no position with the 
Communist Party at that time? 

JSIr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you hold any office in the Communist Party 
at that time— during 1934 ? 

Mr. Johnson. No : I did not hold any office. 

The Chairman. Now, during 1934 how did j^ou supplement your 
income? Did you do that painting? 

Mr. Johnson. That is riglit. I worked in the shop. 

The Chaikman. What shop did you work in ? 

ISIr. Johnson. Well, I have worked in practically all the big shops 
in the city of Chicago. 

The Chairman. Have you worked 

INIr. Johnson. In the union shops. 

The CiiAiRisrAN. Have yon worked fairly steadily during the period 
from 1932 to the present time in the shops as a painter? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, as you know the painters don't work steadily, 
all the year round. 

The Chairman. I mean insofar as painter's work is concerned. 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. You have worked steadily during that period? 

Mr. Johnson. I did. 

The Chaieman. At no time have you depended wholly upon your 
salary from the Comnmnist Party for a living? 



7694 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Johnson. Well, not at that time. I was not getting a salary 
from the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Well, I mean since you started getting a salary 
from the Comnuniist Party you have continued to work in the shops 
whenever you could get a job, is that right? 

Mr. Johnson. No ; I don't. 

The Chairman. You don't do any outside work now ? 

Mr. Johnson. All of my time is devoted to the Party. 

The Chairman. To the (Communist Party? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Were you employed by the W. P. A. during any 
of this period ? 

Mr. Johnson. During what period ? 

The Chairman. Since the W. P. A. started. Have you ever been 
employed by the W. P. A. ? 

Mr. Johnson. Let me see. Employed on the C. W. A, as a union 
painter. 

The Chairman. You haven't been employed since the W. P. A. 
was formed to take the place of the C. W. A., have you? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

The Chairman. Now, since you were secretary of this large local, 
what other position have you held in any union ? 

Mr. Johnson. In any union? 

The Chairman. In any union; yes? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I was delegate to the painters' district council 
and to the Chicago Federation of Labor. 

The Chairman. Delegate selected by the local union ? 

Mr. Johnson. Elected by the local union. 

The Chairman. I mean elected by the local union of which you were 
at one time secretary? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. You were the delegate elected by that union to what 
convention ? What year was that convention ? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I was elected in the local union — in the local 
union during the period of elections when they take place every June. 

The Chairman. About what year was that when you were a dele- 
gate ? 

Mr. Johnson. I believe it was in '33 or '34. 

The Chairman. Now, did you hold any other position with the 
exception of delegate and secretary in any union? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I was also secretary of the committee for unem- 
ployment insurance and relief. 

The Chairman. For what union? 

Mr. Johnson. For quite a large number of local unions in the city of 
Chicago — approximately 60 or more. 

The Chairman. What year was that, sir? 

Mr. Johnson. During the same time — 1933 to 1934. 

The Chairman. You mean that all of the unions had a committee 
for unemployment and what was the other — insurance? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. We liad a committee that would promote the 
movement for unemployment insurance and relief; a committee that 
sponsored or, the committee that supported the unem])loyment insur- 
ance bill that was introduced by Congressman Lundeen. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7695 

Mr. IMaitiiews. Wus thnt ov<2;anizati()n Iviiown as llio American Fed- 
eration of Labor rank and file for nnemploynient insurance? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. But it was selected, as T understand, the members 
of the connnittee were elected 

Mr, JciHxsoN. Dul}- elected by the local union. 

The Chairman. By some 60 unions in Chicago? 

jNIr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. And then the committee elected you as its secretary, 
is that correct ? 

Mr. Johnson. Correct, at a conference. 

The Chairman. Now, outside of that connection or position, have 
von held anv other position in anv union? 

[Xo answer.] 

The Chairman. You have got three positions, as I recall it : Delegate, 
secretary of this local, and secretary of this committee. Now, have 
you held any other positions in any union? 

Mr. Johnson. I don't believe so, Mr. Chairman. . 

The Chairman. Well, do you have any doubt about it. or is your 
memory somewhat hazy on the question or are you fairly certain? 

Mr. Johnson. Our local union called quite a mimber of conferences, 
and I participated in these confei-ences and was elected on the com- 
mittee. 

The Chairman. You mean conferences on different union matters? 

]Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairinian. x\nd those conferences were over a period of years? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. No particular year. You mean from time to 
time ? 

Mr. Johnson. Right. 

The Chairman. Your union has conferences and you have par- 
tici])ated as a delegate or representative on the conference? 

Mr. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. Elected by the members of the union? 

]\Ir. Johnson. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Johnson, is this A. F. of L. rank-and-file 
committee an official A. F. of L. organization? 

Mr. Johnson. It was an official A. F. of L. organization in the 
sense that local unions elected their representatives to represeiit them 
and it was supported by the local unions. Of course, the committee 
was not recognized by William Green. Nevertheless the local unions 
recognized the committee and carried on the fight for unemployment 
insurance. 

Mr. ^Matthews. You no doubt know that the Federal Trade Com- 
mission issued a cease and desist order prohibiting this organiza- 
tion from using the name "A. F. of L." on the ground that it was a 
Comnuniist organization? 

(No ansAver.) 

Mr. ^Iatthews. You laiow that, don't you? 

^Ir. Johnson. That was not true, tliat it was a Communist organi- 
zation. 



7696 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. I am asking you if you know the Federal Trade 
Oommission issued a cease and desist order prohibiting you from 
using the name "A. F. of L."? 

Mr. Johnson. Tliat — that 

Mr. Matthews. Well, is that true or not? 

Mr. Johnson. The}- did, that is true, but I am not sure, Mr. Chair- 
man 

The Chairman. You are denying — you admit they issued the order, 
but your statement is that it was not predicated upon facts. In other 
words, it wasn't a Communist organization, is that what you would 
say? 

Mr. Johnson. I would like to consult with my attorney for ojie 
moment. 

Mr, Chairman, I recall a statement by the Federal Trade Com- 
mission making such — haAang contained within it some remarks as 
Matthews indicated, but whether or not the Federal Trade Com- 
mission ordered this committee to not use the name, I don't remember. 

The Chairma^. But at any rate you continued to use it, didn't 
you ? 

Mr. Johnson. We did. It was officially disbanded. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask permission 
to introduce the cease and desist order into the record at this point. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(The Federal Trade Commission cease and desist order referred 
to by Mr. Matthews was made a part of the record.) 

United States of America 

BEFOEE FEDEEAL TRADE COMMISSION 

In tlie Matter of A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment In- 
surance and Relief, Louis Weinstock, Abraham Baskoft", Richard M. Kroon, 
Frank Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, Elmer Johnson, Robert C. Brown, Harry 
Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zukor (or Zucker), 
C. Taylor, Uuigi Genovese, M. Manes (or Manis), T. L. Major, A. Edwards, G. 
Alston, M. Balya. G. Spagnol, A. W. McPherson, Karl Maisus (or Masis), A. 
Weiner, William Thaclier. E. Crews, F. Phillips, A. Fleming-, and Charles B. 
Killinger. Docket No. 2531 

COMPLAINT 

Pursuant to the provisions of an Act of Congress, entitled "An Act to Create 
a Federal Trade Commission, to define its powers and duties, and for other 
purposes", the Federal Trade Commission, having reason to believe that the 
A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment Insurance and Relief, 
hereinafter referred to as respondent association, Louis Weinstock, Abraham 
Baskoff, Richard M. Kroon, Frank Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, Elmer John- 
son, Robert C. Brown, Harry Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, 
Dora Zukor (or Zucker), C. Taylor, Luigi Genovese, M. Manes (or Manis), T. L. 
Major, A. Edwards, G. Alston, M. Balya, G. Spagnol, A. W. McPherson, Karl 
Maisus (or Masis), A. Weiner, William Thacker, E. Crews, F. Phillips, A. Flem- 
ing, and Charles B. Killinger, hereina.fter referred to as respondent individuals, 
have been and now are using unfair methods of competition in commerce as 
"commerce" is defined in said Act, and it appeai'ing to the Commission that 
a proceeding by it in respect thereof would be in the public interest, hereby 
issues its complaint, stating its charges in that respect as follows : 

PARAGRAPir One: Respondent association, A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee 
for Unemployment Insurance and Relief, is an unincorporated, voluntary asso- 
ciation of persons, having its principal office and place of business at 1 Union 
Square, New York City, in the State of New York. Respondent individuals, Louis 
Weinstock. Abraham Baskoff, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zukor (or Zucker), 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7597 

all of the City of Now York, State of New York; Richard M. Kroon, A. Allen, 
G. Alston, all of the City of Detroit, State of Miihigan ; Frank Mozer, A. Fleming, 
both of the City of i'hiladelphia, State of I'ennsylvania ; E. ('rows of the City 
of Pittsburgh, State of I'ennsylvania: Robert C. Brown of the City of Butte, 
State of Montana ; Harry Bridges, of the City of San Franscisco, State of Cali- 
fornia ; J. P. Anderson of the City of Washington, District of Columbia ; Elmer 
Johnson of the City of Chicago, State of Illinois; C. Tayh)r of the City of Cleve- 
land. Stiite of Ohio; David Gordon of Middle \illage. Long Island, State of New 
York; Luigi Genovese of the City of Rochester, State of New York; A. W. Mc- 
Pherson of the City of ('lairton. State of Pennsylvania ; Charles B. Killinger of 
the City of Flint, State of INIichigan ; and M. Manes (or Manis), T. L. IMajor, A. 
Edwards. M. Balya, (i. Spagnol, Karl INIaisus (or IVIasis), A. Weiner, William 
Thacker and F. Phillips, whose addresses are unknown, are members of the 
respondent association and compose a "national committee" for the purpose of 
supervising and directing all of the activities of the respondent association, in- 
cluding the publication and distribution of the "A. F. of L. Rank and File Fed- 
era tionist". 

('ue of the principal purposes for the organization of the respondent association 
by the respondent individuals was and is the publication each m(»nth of a maga- 
zine entitled '"A. F. of L. Rank and File Federatiouist". The publication of this 
magazine began in the month of January, 1934, and has, with a few exceptions, 
continued monthly. 

Pakagkaph Two : In the course and conduct of the business of publishing the 
magazine, "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federatiouist," hereinbefore mentioned, 
the respondent individuals, acting through and by the aforesaid respondent 
association, sell and solicit the sale of the aforesaid magazine between and 
among the various states" of the United States and in the District of Columbia, 
and cause copies of the aforesaid magazine when sold, to be transported from 
the place of business of the respondent association in New York City to the 
purchasers of such copies, some located in the Slate of New York and otliers 
located in various other states of the United States, and there is now and 
has been for more than one year last past a constant current of trade and 
commerce by the respondent association and respondent individuals in such 
magazine between and among the various states of the United States 

In the course and conduct of their business the respondent association and 
respondent individuals are now and for more than one year last past have 
■been in substantial competition with other associations and individuals, and 
■with corporations, firms and partnerships engaged in the sale of magazines 
between and among the various states of the United States. Among such 
•competitors is the American Federation of Labor, hereinafter described, Vvhich 
now and for more than on<^ year last past has published a monthly magazine 
Ivnown as the "American Federatiouist," hereinafter described. 

Paragraph Three: In 1S81 an unincorporated association was organized in 
the United States under the name of "Federation of Organized Trades and 
Labor I'nions of the United States and Canada," which name was, in the 
year 1SS6. changed to "American Federation of Labor." Tliis organization con- 
sists of local, national, and international unions, and directly atflliated with 
It are approximately 4S2 federations with approximately 725 central boards 
and approximately 1,3-50 local unions. The aggregate number of persons affi- 
liated with the American Federation of Labor is approximately 3.000.000. 

The initials "A. F. of L.". through their use by the American Federation of 
Labor and by its local, natinnal. .and international labor unions, its affiliated 
federations, central boards and local unions, are now and have been for more 
than one year last past known and understood by the American Federation of 
Labor, its local, national, and international labor luiions. its affiliated federa- 
tions, central boards and local unions, and by the general public, as initials for 
the aforesaid American Federation of Labor, and as a designation of the afore- 
said organization. 

The American Federation of Labor has since 1894 published monthly as its 
official magazine the "American Federatiouist". which has a circulation 
throughout the various states of the United States to more than 110,000 sub- 
scj-ibers. Through and by its use sincp 1894 of the term "American Federa- 
tionist" by the American Federation of Labor for its aforesaid magazine, the 
word "Federatiouist", when used as a designation of a magazine, has become 
known to the American Federation of Labor, its local, national and international 
labor unions, its affiliated federations, central boards and local unions, and to 



7(398 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

tlie purchasing pulilic as an abbreviated designation for tlie magazine "American 
Federationist". 

Paragraph Four : The use by tlie respondent association and respondent indi- 
viduals of the name "A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment 
Insurance and Relief", and of the name "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federa- 
tionist", has the capacity and tendency to mislead and deceive members of the 
American Federation of Labor and the purchasing public into the beliefs that the 
respondent association, A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment 
Insurance and Relief, is a committee of the American Federation of Labor, 
and that the said publication is a piiblication of the American Federation of 
Labor, and to purchase the aforesaid "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federationist" 
in sucli erroneous beliefs ; thereby trade is diverted by respondent association 
and respondent individuals from their competitors who do not by the use of 
names for their publications or by the use of names for associations, mislead 
and deceive the purchasing public, and thereby sui)stantial injury is done by 
respondent association and respondent individuals to substantial competition in 
interstate commerce. 

Paragraph Five: The above alleged acts and practices of the respondent 
association and the respondent individu:ils are to the prejudice of the public 
and to tlie competitors of the said respondents. an<l constitute unfair metliods 
of competition in commerce within the intent and meaning of Section 5 of an 
Act of Congress entitled "An Act to Create a Federal Trade Coinmissi(m, to 
define its powers and duties, and for other purposes", approved September 
26, 1914. 

Wherefore the Premises considered, the Federal Trade Commission, on this 
30th day of August, A, D., 1935, now here issues this its complaint against 
respondents. 

NOTICE 

Notice is hereby given you. A. F. of Ij. Trade Union Committee for Unem- 
ployment Insurance and Relief, respondent association, and Louis Weinstock, 
Abraham Baskoff, Richard I\I. Kroon, Frank Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, 
Elmer Johnson, Robert C. Brown, Harry Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, 
Ben Gerjoy, L)ora Zuzor (or Zucker), C. Taylor, Luigi Genovese, M. jManes (or 
IManis), T. L. Major, A. Edwards, G. Alston, M. P.alya, G. Spagnol, A. W. 
McPherson, Karl INIaisus (or Masis). A. Weiner, William Thacker, E. Crews, 
F. I'hillips, A. Fleming, and Charles B. Killinger, respondent individuals, that 
the 4th day of October, A. D., 1935, at 2 :00 o'clock in the afternoon, is hereby 
fixed as the time, and the offices of the Federal Ti'ade Commission in the City 
of Washington, D. C, as the place, when and where a hearing will be had on 
the charges set forth in this complaint, at which time and place you shall 
have the right, under said Act, to appear and show cause why an order should 
not be entered by said Conunission requiring you to cease and desist from the 
violation of the law charged in the complaint. 

You are notified and reciuiretl, on or before the twentieth day after service 
upon you of this complaint, to file with tlie Commission an answer to the 
complaint. If answer is filed, and if your appearance at the place and on the 
date above stated be not required, due notice to that effect will be given you. 
The Rules of Practice adopted by the Commission with respect to answers or 
failures to appear or answer (Rule V) provide as follows: 

,'a) In case of desire to contest the proceeding, the respondent shall, within 
20 days from the service of the complaint, file with the Commission an answer 
tf> the complaint. Such answer shall contain a sliort and simple statement of 
the facts which constitute the ground of defense. Respondent shall specifically 
admit or deny or explain each of the facts alleged in the complaint, unless 
respondent is without knowledge, in which case respondent shall so state, such 
statement operating as a denial. Any allegation of the comiilaint siot speci- 
fically denied in the answer, unless resjiondent shall state in the answer that 
respondent is without knowledge, shall be deemed to be admitted to be true 
and may be so found by the Commission. 

(b) In case respondent desires to waive hearing on the charges set forth in 
the complaint and not to contest the proceeding, the answer may consist of a 
statement that respondent refrains from contesting the proceeding (u- that re- 
spondent consents that the Commission may make, enter, and serve upon 
respondent an order to cease and desist from the violations of the law alleged 
in the complaint, or that respondent admits all the allegations of the complaint 
to be true. Any such answer shall be deemed to be an admission of all the 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7699 

allojjations of the complaint, to \vaiv(> a hearing tliort'oii. and to authorize the 
Connnission, without a trial, without I'videnco, and without findings as to the 
facts or other intervonin.ic proct'iluii'. to make, enter, issue and serve upon 
respondent : 

(e) In eases arising under Section ."» of the Act of Congress approved Sep- 
ttrinber 2(), 1914. entitled "An Act to Create a Federal Trade Commission, to 
define its powers and duties, and for other purposes" (The Federal Trade Com- 
mission Act). 

— an order to cease and desist from the violations of law charged in the 
complaint. 

^ :^ ilfl lit: :i: ilfi iti - 

(f) Failure of the respondent to appear or to file an answer within the time 
as above provided for shall be deemed to be an admission of all allegations 
of the complaint and to authorize the Commission to find them to be true and 
to waive hearings on the charges set forth in the complaint. 

In witness whkrkof. the Federal Trade Commission has caused this, its com- 
plaint, to be signed by its Secretary, and its official seal to be hereto affixed 
at Washington, D. C, this ;iOth day of August, A. D., 1935. 

By the Commission. 

[seal] Otis B. Johnson, Secretary. 



United States of America 

before federal trade commission at a regxtlar session of the federal trade 
commission. held at its office in the city of washington, d. c, on the 

ISTH DAY OF N0VEMBI:R, A. D. 1936 

(Commissioners: Charles H. March, chairman; Garland S. Ferguson, Jr., 
Ewin L. Davis, William A. Ayres, Robert E. Freer. 

In the ^Matter of A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment In- 
surance and Relief, Louis Weinstoc/k, Abraham Baskoff. Richard M. Kroon, 
Frank Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, Elmer Johnson, Robert C. Brown, Harry 
Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zukor (or Ziucker), 
C. Taylor, Luigi Genovese, M. Manes (or Manis). T. L. Major, A. Edwards, G. 
Alston, M. Balya, G. Spagnol, A. W. MePherson. Karl Maisus (or Masis), A. 
Weiner, AVilliam Thacker. E. Crews, F. Phillips, A. Fleming, and Charles B. 
Killinger. Docket No. 2531. 

FINDINGS AS TO THE FACTS AND CONCLUSION 

Pursuant to the provisions of an Act of Congress approved September 26, 
3014. entitled "An Act to create a Federal Trade Commission, to define its 
powers and duties, and for other purposes", the Federal Trade Commission, on 
August 30, 1935, issued and served its complaint in this proceeding upon 
respondents A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment Insurance 
and Relief, hereinafter referred to as respondent association, Louis Weinstock, 
Abraham B.-skoff. Richard :M. Kroon. Frank Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, 
Elmer Jolnison, Robert C. Brown. Harry Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, 
Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zuckor (or Zucker), C. Taylor, Luigi Genove.se, M. Manes (or 
Manis). T. L. Major, A. Edwards, G. Alston, M. Balva, G. Spagnol A. W. Mc- 
I'herson, Karl Maisus (or Masis), A. Weiner, William Thacker, E. Crews, 
F. Plidipps. A. Fleming, and Charles B. Killinger, hereinafter referred to aa 
respondent individuals, charging them with the use of unfair methods of com- 
jH'tition in commerce in violation of the provisions of said Act. After the 
issuance of .said complaint, and the filing of respondents" answers thereto, testi- 
niony and other evidence in support of the allegations of s.-iid coniiilaint were 
introduced by Edward L. Smith, attorney for the Commission, before John W. 
Norwood.^ an examiner of the Commission theretofore duly designated by it 
(Harry Sacher, attorney for the respondents, having waived the introduction 
of testimony and other evidence in opposition to the allegations of the com- 
plaint), and said testimony and other evidence in suiiport of the allegations 
of the complaint were duly recorded and filed in the office of the Commission, 
lliereafter the proceeding regularly came on for final hearing before the Com- 



7700 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

mission on the said complaint, the answer thereto, testimony and evidence, 
briefs in support of the complaint and in opposition thereto, but without oral 
argument, respondents having waived oral argument ; and the Commission 
having duly considered the record and being now fully advised in the premises, 
finds that this proceeding is in the interest of the public, and makes this its 
findings as to the facts and its conclusion drawn therefrom : 

FINDINGS AS TO THE FACTS 

Paragraph One: Respondent association, A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee 
for Unemployment Insurance and Relief, is an unincorporated, voluntary asso- 
ciation of persons, having its principal oflice and place of business at 1 Union 
Square, New York City, in the State of New York. Respondent individuals, 
Louis Weinstock, Abraham Baskoff, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy. Dora Zukor (or 
Zucker), all of the ('ity of New York, State of New York; Richard M. Kroon, 
A. Allen, G. Alston, all of the City of Detroit, State of Michigan ; Frank Mozer, 
A. Fleming, both of the City of Philadelphia. State of Pennsylvania ; E. Crews 
of the City of Pittsburgh, State of Pennsylvania ; Robert C. Brown of the City of 
Butte, State of Montana ; Harry Bridges, of the (Tity of San E^ancisco, State 
of California ; J. P. Anderson of the City of Washington. District of Columbia ; 
Elmer Johnson of the City of Chicago. State of Illinois; C. Taylor of the City 
of Cleveland, State of Ohio: David Gordon of Middle Village, Long Island, 
State of New York ; Luigi Genovese of the City of Rochester, State of New York ; 
A. W. McPherson of the City of ('lairt<m. State of Pennsylvania ; Charles B. 
Killinger of the City of Flint, State of Michigan; and M. Manes (or Manis,) 
T. L. Major, A. Edwards, M. Balya. G. Spagnol. Karl I\Iaisus {or Masis), A. 
Weiner, William Thacker and F. Phillips, whose addresses are unknown, are 
members of the respondent association and compose a "national committee" 
for the purpose of supervising and directing all of the activities of the re- 
spondent association, including the publication and distribution of the "A. F. 
of L. Rank and File Federationilst". 

One of the principal purposes for the organization of the respondent associa- 
tion by the respondent individuals was the publication each month of a maga- 
zine entitled "A. F. of L. Rank and File Fcdcrationist". The publication of this 
magazine began in the month of January, 1934. and continued through October, 
1935. 

Paragraph Two : In the course and conduct of the business of publishing the 
magazine, "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federationist", hereinbefore mentioned, 
the respondent individuals, acting through and by the aforesaid respondent 
association, sold and solicited the sale of the aforesaid magazine between and 
among the various states of the United States and in the District of Columbia, 
and caused copies of the aforesaid magazine when sold, to be transported from 
the place of business of the respondent association in New York City to the 
purchasers of such copies, some located in the State of New York and others 
located in various other states of the United States, and there was from 
January, 1934, to and until October, 193"), a constant current of trade and 
commerce b,v the respondent association and respondent individuals in such 
magazine between and among the various states of the United States. 

In the course and conduct of their business the respondent association and 
respondent individuals have been in substantial competition with otlier associa- 
tions and individuals, and with corijoi-ations, firms and partnerships engaged 
in the sale of magazines between and among the various states of the United 
States. Among such competitors is the American Federation of Labor, here- 
inafter de.scribed, which now and for more than one year last past has published 
a monthly magazine known as the "American Federationist", hereinafter 
described. 

Paragraph Three: In 1881 an unincorporated association was organized in 
the United States under the name of "Federation of Organized Trades and 
Labor Unions of the United States and Canada", which name was, in the year 
1886, changed to "American Federation of Labor". This organization consists 
of 110 national and international unions, 11.^)4 local imions, and about 3,615,000 
members. 

The initials "A. F. of L.", through their use by the American Federation of 
Labor and by its local, national, and international labor unions, its afliliated 
federations, central boards and local unions, are now and for more than one 
year last past have been known and understood by the American Federation 
of Labor, its local, national and international labor unions, its affiliated federa- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 77OI 

tions, centrMl hoards and l(ical unions, and by the jjencral pnhlic. as initials 
for the aforesaid American Federation of Lal)or, and as a desifiiiation of the 
aforesaid organization. 

The American Federtion of Labor has since 1894 published montMy as its 
official magazine the "American Federal ionist", which has a circulation through- 
out the various states of the Fnited States to more than IIO.OOO sui)scrihers. 
Throu.uh and by its use since 1S04 of the term "American Federal ionist" by 
the American Federation of Labor for its aforesaid maKa/ine, the word "Fed- 
erationist", when used as a designation of a magazine, lias become known to 
the American Federation of I^abor, its local, national and international labor 
unions, its alHliaied federations, central boards and local unions, and to the 
purchasing i)ublic as an ablireviated designation for the magazine "American 
Federatioiiist". 

Paragraph Foxtr : Respondent association was not a committee of the Ameri- 
can Federation of Labor nor was the aforesaid A. F. of L. Rank and File 
Federationist, a publication of the American Federation of Labor. The use 
by the respondent association and by respondent individuals of the name "A. F. 
of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment Insurance and Relief and of 
the name "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federationist" was without the authority 
or permission of the American Federation of Labor. 

PAKAnRAPH Five : The use by the respondent association and respondent indi- 
viduals of the name "A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment 
Insurance and Relief", and of the naine "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federa- 
tionist", has had the capacity and tendency to mislead and deceive members 
of the American Federation of Labor and the purchasing public into the beliefs 
that the respondent association, A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unem- 
ployment Insurance and Relief, was a committee of the American Federation of 
Labor, and that the said publication was a publication of the American Fed- 
eration of Labor, and to purchase the aforesaid "A. F. of L. Rank and File 
Federationist" in such erroneous beliefs : thereby trade has been diverted by 
respondent association and respondent individuals from their competitors who 
do not mislead and deceive and who have not misled and deceived the pur- 
chasing public by the use of names for their publications or by the use of 
names for associations. Thereby substantial injury has been done by respondent 
association and respondent individuals to substantial competition in intei"state 
commerce. 

CONCLUSION 

The aforesaid acts and practices of the respondent association, A. F. of L. 
Trade Union Committee for Unemployment Insurance and Relief, and respond- 
ent individuals Louis Weinstock, Abraham Baskoff, Richard M. Kroon, Frank 
Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, Elmer Johnson, Robert C. Brown, Harry 
Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zukor (or Zncker), 
C. Taylor. Luigi Genovese, M. Manes (or Manis), T. L. IMajor, A. Edwards. 
G. Alston. M. Bal.va. G. Spagnol. A. W. McPherson, Karl Maisus (or Masis), A. 
Weiner, William Thacker, E. Crews, F. Phillips, A. Fleming, and Charles B. 
Killinger. are to the prejudice of the public and of respondents' competitor.s, 
and constitute unfair methods of competition in commerce, within the intent 
and meaning of Section 5 of an Act of Congress, approved September 26, 1014, 
entitled "An Act to create a Federal Trade Commission, to define its powers 
and duties, and for other purposes". 

By the Commission. 

FsealI Charles H. March, Chairman. 

Dated this 18th day of November, A. D. 1936. 

Attest : 

Otis B. Johnson, Secretary. 



United States of America 

before federal trade commission at a regulae sesfjion of the federal trade 
commission, held at its office in the city of washington, d. c, on the 18th 
day of novembee, a. d. 1936 

Commissioners Charles H. March, Chairman, Garland S. Ferguson, Jr., Ewiu 
L. Davis, William A. Ayres, Robert E. Freer. 



7702 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

In the matter of A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment Insur- 
ance and Relief, Louis Weinstock, Abraham Baskoff, Richard IM. Kroon, Frank 
Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Allen, Elmer Johnson, Rchert C. Brown, Harry 
Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zukor (or Zncker), 
C. Taylor, Lniai Genovese, INI. Manes (or Manis), T. L. Major A. Edwards, 
G. Alston, M. Balya, G. Spagnol, A. W. McPherson, Karl Maisus (or Masis), 
A. Weiner, William Thacker, E. Crews, F. Phillips, A. Fleming, and Charles B. 
Killinger. Docket No. 2531. 

ORDER TO CEASE AND DESIST 

This proceeding having been heard by the Federal Trade Commission upon 
the complaint of the Conunission, the answers of the respondents, testimony 
and other evidence taken before John W. Norwood, an examiner of the Commis- 
sion theretofore duly designated by it, in support of the allegations of the 
complaint, (Harry Sacher, attorney for the respondents having waived the 
introduction of testimony and other evidence in opposition to the allegations 
of the complaint I, and briefs tiled herein, and the Commission having made its 
findings as to the facts and its conclusion that the respondents herein have 
violated the provisions of an Act of Congress approved September 26, 1914, 
entitled, "An Act to create a Federal Trade Commission, to define its powers 
and duties, and for other purposes" ; 

It is hereby ordered that the respondent association, A. F. of L. Trade 
Union Committee for Unemployment Insurance and Relief, and respondent 
individuals Louis Weinstock, Abraham Baskoff, Richard M. Kro<m, Frank 
Mozer, J. P. Anderson, A. Alien, Elmer Johnson, Robert C. Brown, Harry 
Bridges, David Gordon, Elmer Brown, Ben Gerjoy, Dora Zukor (cr Zucker), 
C. Taylor, Luigi Geuovet-e, M. Manes (or Manis), T. L. Major, A. Edwards, 
G. Alston, M. Balya, G. Spagnol, A. W. McPherson, Karl Maisus (or Masis), 
A. Weiner, William Thacker, E. Crews, F. Phillips. A. Fleming and Charles B. 
Killinger and their respective agents, servants and employees, in connection 
with the sale and offering for sale of magazines in interstate conunerce or in 
the Distinct of Columbia, do forthwith cease and desist from the use of the 
name "A. F. of L. Trade Union Committee for Unemployment Insurance and 
Relief" and of the name "A. F. of L. Rank and File Federationist" and of any 
other name indicating or suggesting that the said respondent association or 
any of its members constitute a conmiittee of the American Federation of 
Labor, or that any pulilication by them or liy any of them so sold and offered 
for sale is a publication of the American Federation of Labor. 

And it is hereliy further ordered that the aforesaid respondent association 
and respondent individuals shall, within sixt.v (60) days after service upon 
them of this order, file with this Conunission a report in writing setting forth 
in detail the manner and form in which they have complied with this order 

By the Commission. 

[seal] Otis B. Johnson, Secretary. 

Mr. CoHN. I will object to its introduction unless I have an oppor- 
tunity to examine it and find out what ■ 

Mr. Matthews. The witness testified that he recalls there was such 
a cease and desist order issued. 

The Chairmax. You can offer the order and show the counsel the 
order if you have it. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Lewis Weinstock? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; I know him. 

Mr. Matthews. He is also or lias been rather ]Drominent in the 
Painters' Union, has he not, in the New York local ? 

Mr. Johnson. I knew him at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. Local 9? 

Mr. Johnson. Durino; that period I knew him. As a secretary of 
the Painters' Local Union 637, I knew of Lewis Weinstock. 

The Chairman. What position did he hold in the union? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, he was secretary of the Painters' District 
Council No. 9 at one time in New York, and it was in that capacity 
that I had relations with him. 



VX-A^rERlCAX PROPAGANDA ArTIVITIES 7703 

Mr. ^1attiip:\v.s. Were you oi)enly known iis n member of the Com- 
munist Party when you ()ccu])ied the ])()sition of secretary of Local 
(i37 — as secretaiT of the ])aintei's' local? 

Mr. Johnson. I was known by many members of the union as a 
Communist. 

Mr. Matthews. But you were not known by the union as a whole 
to be a member of the Connnunist Party, were you? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, they called me a Connnunist. I never 
denied it. 

]Mr. Matthews. You never denied beinp; a Comnnmist durinp; your 
secretarvshi])? 

Mr. Johnson. I never had an occasion to make an issue of that. 

Mr. Matthews. Ton know Lewis Weinstock as a member of the 
Connnunist Party, do you not? 

]Mr. Johnson. No: 1 don't know him as a member. I knew him 
as a secretary of District Council No. 9. 

Mr. ]\Iattiiews. Mv. Johnson, the Communist Party is a revolu- 
tionary Darty, is it not ( 

Mr. Johnson. Yes; in the best traditions of American revolu- 
tionary. 

Mr. Matthews. It is also revolutionary in the sense as set forth by 
the teachings of Marx. Enoels, Lenin, and Stalin, is it not? 

Mr. Johnson. That is true. 

]\Ir. ]\Iatthews. That is, part of your revolution is based on the 
teachinjis of tliose four men. is that correct ? 

Mr. Cohn. May I say 

The Chairman. Wait a minute, Mr. Counsel, let him answer the 
question. 

Mr. CoHN. I wish to state that probablv the best authority' would 
be the leadino- authorities in the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Well, he has a rioht to ask this witness that ques- 
tion. He already answered as I understand the question, 

Mr. Johnson. Will you repeat that a^ain? 

The Chairman. Have you not answered the question — the three 
questions that he asked you? 

(Xo answer.) 

The Chairman. You have already answered. 

Mr. Johnson. But there was one question that he asked here I 
didn't oret. 

The Chairman. Well, the same question was answered by the wit- 
ness two times. Proceed. 

^Ir. ]\L\tthews. The Connnunist Party beinir, as y()u say, a revo- 
lutionary ora'anization. it is revolutionary as interpreted in the sense 
in which Marx. Ensels. Lenin, and Stalin stated it. Isn't it true, 
INfr. Johnson, that the reasoji you don't want to p;ive the names of 
anyone in or associated with the Communist l*arty. is that it is a 
conspiratorial or<ranization which aims at a revolution to displace 
the cajiitalist system in the United States with a soviet form of 
government ? 

Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chairman. I oliject to that question. It is not 
based on any facts at all. I object to it because our party is not a 
conspiratorial or<j:anization and all facts and evidence prove the 
contrary. 

The Chairman. Your answer is that it is not a conspiratorial 
organization? 

949.31— 40— vol. l.S 3 



7704 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Johnson. That it is a legal, open organization that carries 
on its activities before all. 

The Chairman. All right ; proceed. 

Mr. Johnson. And there is nothing to hide. 

Mr. Matthews. Are the teachings of Lenin and the others who 
have occnpied positions of leadership in the Commnnist movement 
such that illegal actions are barred from the work of the Communist 
Party ^ 

Mr. CoHN. I must ask that the question, unless it is made more 
specific, is meaningless. 

The Chairman. Wait just 1 minute, if you donH mind. 

We have a number of witnesses here on another phase of this 
matter and let us conclude with this witness. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, I would like to ask the witness if he doesn't 
know that Lenin stated that the revolutionaries, if they are to be 
worthy of the name, must employ or must combine both illegal and 
legal methods 

Mr. Johnson. Where did you get that statement from? 

Mr. Matthews. I got that from Lenin. 

Mr. Johnson. Well. I don't want to discuss anything taken out of 
a text as you are doing it now. I would rather see the document. 
I would rather examine the document, and then I would have to dis- 
cr.ss it in the period that it was said, at the time it was mentioned. 
I would have to take many things into consideration. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, you are not prepared to repudiate 
categorically that statement? 

Mr. Johnson. No ; that is not the answer at all. The answer is as 
I have given it. 

Mr. Matt^hews. In the event of a war between the Ignited States 
and the Soviet Union, Mr. Johnson, where would your allegiance lie? 

Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chairman, I object to that question on the 
ground that I think it is a war-mongering question. 

The Chairman. You decline to state? 

Mr. Johnson. I want to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on 
the grounds 

The Chairman. But you object to it. You are not answering. 

Mr. CoHN. He wishes to state his objections. 

Mr. Johnson. I object on the ground I think it is a war-mongering 
question. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. Do you decline to answer the 
question''; 

Mr. Cohn. The witness declines. 

The Chairman. We have been very lenient in giving him an op]:)or- 
tunity to state reasons. He has asked a question, and do you decline 
to ansAver the question? 

Mr. Johnson. On the grounds, and I want the reasons for my 
failure 

The Chairman. I am asking you now do you decline to answer the 
question ? 

I\Ir. Johnson. For the reason, Mr. Chairman 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Johnson. That T consider this question a Avar-mongering ques- 
tion that possibly will whip up war hysteria between two countries 



UN-A^klElUrAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7705 

■wliose people, the- people of our own couiitiy iuul the people of the 
Soviet riiion. want peace and that this question on that basis, in 
my opinion, it is a wai-inono;erino- question. 

The C'HAiiniAN. All ri^ht. In other words, as I understand you, 
you decline to state whether or not you would support the United 
States in the event of war between the United States and the Soviet 
Union i 

Mi-. Johxsox. I would say that. 

The Chadjman. For the reason that you decline to answer that for 
the reasons stated, is that right? 

Mr. Johnson. For the reasons stated. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

Mr. ]^Iatthkavs. Mr. Johnson, when Mr. Browder was on the stand 
here he stated that if the United States entered this so-called "impe- 
rialistic war" against the Soviet Union, that he would try to turn it 
into a civil war in the United States. Do you accept that view^^ 

]\Ir. Ji)HNsoN. I don't recall seeing that statement, and I don't want 
to discuss it. 

Mr. ]Matthews. AVill you repudiate that view? 

Mr. Johnson. Because I would have to see the statement, Mr. 
Chairman, and I would have to see it in an official document, and 
then I would have to consider that statement in the light of the 
]ieiiod in which it was written. 

The Chatr^ian. AMien you say '"official document" do you mean 
j-ou would not accept the hearings of this committee as an official 
document — his statement as recorded in the hearings? 

]Mi'. CoHN. Xo. I think what the witness means is that he was not 
accepting Mr. Matthews" recollection as to w4iat any witness said as 
being the text of anj' document. 

The Chairman. Assuming that Earl Browder made the statement, 
wotild you re])udiate the statement? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I would have to consider the period in which 
he made that statement. 

The Chairman. Well, the period was last year. 

Mr. Johnson. Then it would have 

The Chairman. Before the pact between Russia and Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Just after the pact. 

The Chairman. Just after the pact; that is right. 

Ml'. Johnson. This is a hypothetical question, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. ]Matihews. Mr. Johnson, you are familiar with the constitu- 
tion and program of the Communists' International — you have seen 
this, have you not [exhibiting pamphlet to the witness] ? 

Mr. Johnson. I have. 

]Mr. Matthews. 1 read you from page 84 : 

Tho fundamental slogans of the Communists' International must be the f<'I- 
lowitiK: ■••■(nivert imperialistic wars into civil war, defeat your own imperialist 
governmenr. dnfend the U. S. S. R. and the colonies by every possible means iu 
the event «>f imperialist war against them."' 

Mr. Cohn. Are you through? 
The Chairman. He has read it. 

]\rr. Cohn. I would like to know the date on which that was writ- 
ten ( 



7706 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. This is the constitution of the Communists' In- 
ternational. 

Mr. CoHN. I did not ask that. I asked the date on which it was 
written ? 

Mr. Matthews. July 1928. Adoi)ted by the Sixth Congress of the 
Communists' International and is still in force, according to the wit- 
nesses who have been before the connnittee. 

This particular document was ])rinted by the Workers Library of 
Pul)lishers in February of 1936 [handing pamphlet to Mr. Cohn]. 

Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chairman, I don't think that it is witliin tlie 
scope of this committee to probe into my opinions. 

The Chairman. But you are a representative of this party and this 
is the constitution of the International. Mr. Matthews is asking you 
whether you subscribe to this. You certaiidy can say whether you 
subscribe to it or not. 

Mr. Johnson. But this document was written in a period milike 
the period now and it would have been considered under those cir- 
cumstances. 

The Chairman. Regardless of the period under which it was writ- 
ten, do you subscribe to it now under this period? 

Mr. Johnson. I would have to read the entire document. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Mr. Johnson, how many Avorld congresses have 
there been since this was adopted ? 

Mr. Johnson. I think there were six. 

]Mr. Matthews. No, since this was ado])ted. This was adopted at 
the Sixth AVorld Congress in 1928. How many world congresses 
of the Comnuuiists' International have there been since that time? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, there have been 7 world congresses, of course. 

Mr. Matthews. No, there has been one. You know there has only 
been one world congress since 1928, is that right ? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. The Seventh World Congress held in Moscow in 
1935, in August, is the only world congress of the Communists' In- 
ternational held since 1928. You know that is correct ? 

Mr. Johnson. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the Seventh World Congress abolish this con- 
stitution or in any way amend it? 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I am not an authority on this question. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, as a member of the Communist Party and 
one of the State secretaries, you must know' a matter like that, don't 
you ? 

Mr. Johnson. It further developed the thesis contained within 
that document. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that the Seventh AVorld Congress did 
not in any way amend this constitution, don't you ? 

]\Ir. Johnson. It further developed the political perspective. 

The Chairman. Did it amend it? Did it change it in any respect? 

Mr. Johnson. It did change it in some respects. 

The Chairman. Did it change it in the respect that we have been 
talking about? Did it make any alteration in the x^ronouncements 
that Mr. Matthews read to you? 

Mr. Johnson. They made certain changes corresponding to the 
new situation. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness if 
he realizes he is testifying under oath when he says the Seventh 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7707 

"World C'()llli"l•e^s "iiuule ciM'ttiin changes in the constitution.-' I would 
like to know that he is aware he is testifying under oath when he 
makes that statement ? 

Mr. CoHX. I will .'^ay for tlie witness he is aware he is testifying 
niuler oath. 

The Chairman. All right: let the witness answer the question. 

Mr. Casey. Let me ask the witness one question, 

Mr. Tiio:>rAS. AVait a minute. 

The Chaiioiax. Let us get this developed. Do you say that the 
Seventh World Congress made changes in the constitution of the 
International ( 

Mr. fJoHNsox. T am not sure. 

Mr. jNLvtthews. He alreatly statetl they did. 

The Chairmax^. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Thomas. Let us have the matter cleared up first. He said they 
did and now he says he is not sure. Now, what is the answer? What 
is your answer to the question^ 

Mr. CoHX. Are we being asked concerning the constitution of the 
Conununists' Liternational, or are we being asked for the extract 
from the preamble or the introduction to the program of the Com- 
munists' International ? 

The Chairman. The question is clear, whether or not the Seventh 
World Congress made any changes in the constitution that was 
ado))ted in the Sixth World Congress. 

]\Ir. CoHX. The extract that Air. Matthews read has nothing to do 
with the constitution. 

The Chaikmax. We are talking about the constitution, 

Mr. CoHx. If he knows, answer it. 

The CiiAiRMAx. He says he is not sure whether they did or not; 
is that correct? 

Mr. JoHxsoN. That is right. I thought Matthews was referring 
to the political perspective. 

The Chairman. We are talking about the constitution. It is the 
constitution itself. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they make any changes or didn't they? 

Mr. Casey. Wait a minute; let counsel ask the questions, I wanted 
to ask a question a moment ago and you objected, 

Air. AIatthews. The follow-up question I wanted to ask was, Were 
any changes made by the Seventh World Congress in the so-called 
preamble or program to the constitution, as incorporated in this 
volume, if the witness knows the answer to that question? 

Mr.CoHX. If he knows. 

Mr. Johxsox. I am not sure. 

The Chairman^. All right. 

Ml-. Casey. Do you subscribe to the constitution of the Communist 
Party as a member of the Communist Party ? 

Air. Johxsox. I subscribe to the constitution of the Communist 
I*arty of the United States; yes, sir. 

Air. Casey. Do you consider the United States an imperialistic 
nation? 

All-. Cohx. Alay I say if you are asking for his opinion, his o]Mnioii 
is not properly before the committee. It is beyond the scope of 
your authority to examine into the opinions of people. 

Air. Casey."^ AVe are inquiring as to un-American activities and 
the whole crux of the matter is whether this is, as they claim, a 



7708 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

national party or whether it owes alleoiance to somebody outside 
of this country. 

Mr. Johnson. I will say this in that respect, that there are certain 
forces in this country who have im]jeiialist desio-n? and who would 
like to draw this country into the imperialist war in Europe; that 
Avould like to defeat the wishes of the p;reat majority of the American 
people who want peace; who don't want to be drawn into this war 
for profits and this war for spheres of influence that is ftoino- on in 
Europe now. 

The Chairman. Now, he asked you if you considered this country 
an im])erialist country. Is that rioht ( 

Mr. Casey. That is correct. 

Mr. CoHN. And my objection is that it calls for the opinion of the 
w^itness. 

The Chairman. He gave the opinion. 

Mr. CoHN. In violation of his constitutional rights under the fourth 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Johnson. My o])inion is that there are forces in this country 
who have imperialistic designs. 

The Chairman. But you don't consider the country an imperial- 
istic country as used in the constitution? 

Mr. CoHN. I object to the o])inion of the witness. 

The Chairman. The witness voluntarily gave them. 

Mr. CoHN. I move to expunge them as not properly before the 
committee. 

The Chairman. Including 

Mr. CoHN. Including any answer siven in his opinion. 

The Chairman. I would suggest you and your client get together 
on the proposition. 

Mr. CoHN. My client and I will get together. 

The Chairman. He voluntarily gave his o])inion. Xow, you object 
to his stating that opinion that he gave, is that right ? 

Mr. CoHN. You may have the answer with respect to that opinion. 
I will object to any future opinions called for by you. 

The Chairman. All right, you may proceed. 

Mr. CoHN. And I am advising my client not to answer any ques- 
tions calling for his personal o]3inions. 

The Chairman. All right, who is the next witness? 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, are you through with this witness? 

The Chairman. Yes; we are through with him. 

Mr. CoHN. May I ask him a few questions? 

The Chairman. No. The committee cannot pei'mit that ])rocedure. 

Mr. Cohn. May I call your attention 

The Chairman. I want to ask one other question. Did you bring 
any records with you of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Johnson. I did bring some records; I did bring some ma- 
terial here on un-American activities in the city of Detroit — 
Couirhlin — Smith 



•>->' 



The Chairman. I asked you if you brough any of the records of 
the Communist Party — any of the official records. 

Mr. Johnson. We have records of un-American activities 

The Chairman. I am asking you if you brought 

Mr. Johnson. In the city of Detroit 

The Chairman. Of the official records of the Communist Party? 
Did you or did you not? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7709 

Mr. Johnson. For the reasons previously stated, T did not. 

Tlie Chairman. That is all I am askino- you. That is all. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, may I call your attention to the foHow- 
in»r statement of Mr. Felix FiVinkfurter. now Justice Frankfurter, 
Avhieli a])i)eared in the New KeiMiblic ^ 

The Chaihman. AVe are not interested in Judge Frankfurter's 
statements in the New Ile])ubru-. Is that since he has been on the 
Supreme Court bench? 

Mr. CoHX. No. That is ]n'ior to the time. 

The Chairman. And is that a judgment of the judge? 

Mr. CoHN. It is his opinion. 

Tlie Chairman. No. 

Mr. CoHN. ^lay I say with respect to tlie right of counsel to 
examine a witness, tliat Mr. Frankfurter said, as follows — I would 
like to read this. 

The Chairman. Well, the committee will not permit that because 
the committee is not interested in Judge Frankfurter's opinions unless 
they are o])inions as a Justice on the Supreme Court. 

Mr. CoHN. I am asking for the right to question the witness. 

The Chairman. Well, that right is being denied you. 

Mr. CoHN. May I argue the i^oint? 

Mr. Thomas. No. 

The Chairman, No. 

Mr. Cohn. May I state to you the reasons why I believe 

The Chairman. Have you any decisions of the court saying that 
counsel has a right to ask questions? 

Mr. CoHN. No: but I wisli to read 

The Chairman. Then if you haven't a decision that concludes the 
matter. 

Mr. CoHN. ^lay I read to you the political science textbook? 

The Chairman. No; we are not interested in the political science 
textbook. AVho is the next witness? 

Mr. CoHN. I res])ect fully — I object and I wish to enter an excep- 
tion on the record. 

Tlie Chairman. All risht : the next witness is Mr. MeKenna. 

Mr. McKenna. will you raise your right hand and be sworn? 

Mr. Thomas M. McKenna. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
tnith. and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Thomas M. McKenna. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. McKENNA, WARD COMMITTEEMAN OF 
FIFTH WARD ORGANIZATION OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY, 
CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mr. MArrHEWS. Please give your full name to the committee 2 
Mr. McKenna. My name is Thomas Morrison McKenna. 
Mr. Matthews. Where were you born? 
Mr. McKenna. In Pittsburgh, Pa. 
Mr. Matthews. When? 
]Mr. McKenna. January 27, 1907. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the Com- 
numist Party? 

Mr. ]\IcKenna. For approximately 4 or 5 j-ears. 



7710 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

JNIr. ]Matthp:ws. When did you join? 

Mr. McKenna. I joined the Communist Party in about 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you join ? 

Mr. McKexna. In Chicago, IlL 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Who recruited you? 

Mr. McKenxa. On the question of names of individuals, I feel 
that this is an improper question, because in giving such names I 
would be divulging the political opinions of other people — member- 
ship in political organizations of other people— and I think this is a 
private matter of individuals and that I would not have the right to 
bring before a connnittee of this kind the names of people or the 
political affiliation by the people. That is their private concern. 

The Chairman. All right ; for that reason you decline to answer 
his question? 

Mr. McKenna. For that reason I decline to answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answer the question. 
You still decline to do so? 

Mr. McKexxa. For the reasons stated. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Under what name are you a member of the Com- 
mtmist Party? 

Mr. McKexxa. My name in the Communist Party is Thomas 
Morrison McKenna. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever gone under any other name since 
you became a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKexxa. I have used another name since I became a mem^ 
ber of the Conununist Party; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What was that name? 

Mr. McKexxa. The name I used was Thomas M. Stanley. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Under what circumstances did you use that name? 

Mr. McKexxa. I was seeking employment in about 1937. I think it 
was, and it happened that there is in Chicago, there is in many cities, 
a blacklist where persons are deprived of their right to a job to earn 
a livelihood for themselves and their families because they — because 
of their political beliefs — because of their political affiliations. It 
happened that my political beliefs and affiliations were matters of 
public record. They had api^eared in the newspapers on various 
occasions and in order to obtain a job I used the name "Thomas M. 
Stanley.^' 

Mr. Matthew^s. Do you spell that S-t-a-n-1-e-y ? 

Mr. McKenna. That is right. 

Mr. IMatthews. Have you ever traveled abroad? 

Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Where have you traveled abroad? 

Mr. McKexx'a. I lived abroad for 2i/> years between the vears 
1929 and 1931— the spring of 1929. 

Mr. Matthews. That was before you became a member of the 
Conununist Party ? 

Mr. McKexxa. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Before ,you became a member of the Communist 
Party had you traveled abroad? 

Mr. McKenna, I have not. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Have not been out of the United States ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7711 

Mr. McKexxa. No. 

Mr. ^Iaitiiews. What is your position? 

Mr. McKenxa. Ward comniitteeman of the fifth ward orf^aniza- 
tiou in the Connnunist Party in the city of Chica<>o, county of Cook. 

Mr. Matthews. How k)n<>- have you held that position? 

Mr. ^NIcKexxa. I have hekl that position for, let me see, about, 
approxiniatelv— not by that name. I formerly was the organizer, 
ward oro-ani/.er, and we established a hfth-ward organization of the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you held that position? 

Mr. McKexxa. I have held a position of that sort for about 3 
years — 2io years. 

]Mr. Mai-thews. Does that position make you a member of the city 
connnittee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKexxa. Xo; it does not. 

Mr. ]^Iatthews. What other positions have you held in the Com- 
nuniist Party? 

Mr. ^McKexxa. I held for a brief tijne a position as chairman of 
a branch of the — I don't know whether it was called the fifth-ward 
branch of the Comnumist Party — I think it was. 

The Chairmax. At this point the Chair designates as a subcom- 
mittee the Chairman, Mr. Mason, and Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Voorhis. 

]Mr. ^Matthews. Are you a member of a trade union ? 

]Mr. ]\IcKexxa. I have been a member of a trade union of the 
American Newspaper Guild. 

]Mr, ]Mattheavs. How long have vou been a member of the News- 
paper Guild? 

Mr. McKexxa. Well. I was a member of that organization during 
the time that I was circulation manager of the Daily Record, a 
Chicago publication. 

]Mr. Matthews. That was the Mid-West Daily Record? 

]\Ir. ]\IcKexxa. It was known, when I was circulation manager, 
as the Daily Record ; not the Mid-West Daily Record. 

Mr. Matthews. But later renamed? 

Mr. McKexxa. No; formerly named the Mid-West Daily Record. 
Tlie name was changed to Daily Record. 

Mr. Matthews. It Avas a publication of the Communist Party in 
the city of Chicago? 

]\rr. McKexxa. No. That was not a publication of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Despite the fact that Earl Browder said it was 
a Communist Party publication, you would deny that? 

Mr. McKexxa. That is not a publication of the Comnumist Party. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Was Louis Budenz editor of the Daily Record? 

Mr. McKexxa. It is obvious the question of the editorship, of the 
editor of the paper, is a matter of public record and the only reason 
T object to answering that question is that I think although there is 
no (juestion of political association — I reconsider. Mr. Budenz was 
the editor of this paper. 

Mr. Matthew^s. And he is publicly known as a member of the 
Connnunist Party, is he not? 



7712 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. McKenna. For the reasons I stated earlier, I do not feel that 
I have tlie ri^ht, or the privilege, or duty to divulge to this com- 
mittee the political affiliations and opinions 

The Chairman. In the case where this man is publicly 
known 

]Mr. McKenna. It isn't for the sake of secrecy. It isn't a ques- 
tion of secrecy at all. The names and addresses — even the official 
positions 

The Chairman, Do I understand you to decline to answer whether 
or not this individual is a member of the party? 

Mr. McKenna. T want to state that the questions are already — 
the party is not a secret organization. The names of large num- 
bers of members are published in all sorts of documents issued by 
the Communist Party — addressed public meetings, and so fortli. 
However, for the purpose of this conunittee, I do not think that I 
have the right to divulge the names of any members. 

The Chairman. You have stated that reason. Now, what I am 
asking you is, do you decline to state whether or not this individual 
is a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKenna. I do. 

The Chair?iian. Do j^ou know whether he is a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. McKenna. I decline to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You decline to say whether you know? 

Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Whether he is a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. jNIcKenna. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to do so and you decline 
to do so for the reasons you stated? 

Mr. McKenna. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you still deny the Daily Record or the Mid- 
West Daily Record 

Mr. CoHN. Just a second. 

yir. McKenna. Just one moment. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you still deny that the Daily Record or the 
]Mid-West Daily Record was a publication of the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKenna, I deny it. I do; yes. 

The Chairman. The purpose of asking the political affiliations of 
the members of tha( stall' becomes even more pertinent in view of 
the witness' denial. 

Who are some of the other members of the staff of the Mid-West 
Daily Record? 

yiv. McKenna. There is William L. Patterson. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. McKenna. For the reasons I previously stated and also for 
additional reasons that the Communist Party is a legal party, is a 
party that — legal ])olitical party and also for the reason that there 
is an attempt on the part of a large number of people, and I think 
that this committee is participating in this attempt and doing a 
great deal to bring this about, and the Chairman of the conunittee 
has said, has advocated blacklists of people who belong to the Com- 
munist Party — this political party, and for those reasons as well as 



rX-AMEHICAN rKOrACAXDA ACTIVITIES 7713 

the Olios thiit I already stated. I decline to discuss the political affilia- 
tions of any individual. 

Mr. Ma'ithiavs. You know that both AVilliani L. Patterson and 
Louis liudcnz are members of the Conununist Party? 

(No answer). 

The CiiAiiniAX. You stated your reasons? 

Mr. M( Kkxxa. Yes. sir. 

The Chauoian. And you decline to answer Avhether or not William 
L. Patterson is a mend)er of the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKexxa. I do decline. 

The Chair:max. The Chair instructs you to answer the question 
and you decline to do so? 

Mr. McKexxa. Yes, sir. 

The CiiAimiAx. The Chair asks you a question: Do you know 
whether William Patterson is a member of the Communist Party? 
Do you decline to answer that question? 

^ir. McKexxa. For the reasons stated I do. 

The Chairmax. Although the Chair directs you to do so? 

]Mr. M( Kexxa. Yes. 

The Chairmax. Proceed. 

]Mr. Matthews. You know that both William L. Patterson and 
Louis Budenz 

Mr. CoHX. Just a second. Would you excuse me? 

The Chair:max'. All rio^ht, proceed. 

]\Ir. Matthews. You know both Louis Budenz and William Patter- 
son are members of the International Committee of the Communist 
Party of the I'nited States, don't you? 

Mr. McKexxa. I think this is the line of questions that I declined 
to answer. 

The CnAunrAX. He declined to answer those questions. 

^Ir. Matthews. Have you ever belontjed to any other trade union 
tlian the American News])aper Guild? 

Mr. McKexxa. Xo. I never have. 

]Mr. Matthews. HaA-e you ever held any office in the American 
Xewspaj:)er Guild ? 

Mr. McKexxa. Xo. I have not. 

]Mr. Maithews. Have you ever been employed by the Government? 

Mr. McKexxa. I have been employed by the Government and I am 
em|)loyed by the Government at the present time. 

Mr. Matthews. What is vour present position in the Government? 

Mr. McKexxa. It is not a ])osition in the Government. My posi- 
ti<jn is as a noncertified worker on the AV. P. A. project — the monthly 
report of employment — unem|)loyment, a survey that is bein^ con- 
ducted throughout the country with its national office in Chicago. I 
am *'nL''a<i"ed tliere as a principal research interviewer. 

Mr. Thomas. I did not iret the last answer. 

The Chairmax. Engaged in what capacity? 

Mr. McKexxa. As a principal research interviewer. 

Mr. Thomas. Tender the AV. P. A.? 

Mr. M< Kexna. It is under the P. AA". A. but it is a noncertified 
project. That is to say that the persons who work on that project, 
although they receive a salary less than the nonsecured. 

Mr. Thomas. AA'ho do you get your salary from? Who pays you? 

Mr. M( Kexxa. My checks are fj'om tlie AA". P. A. It is a project 
that is connected with the A\^. P. A. 



7714 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. How lono; have you held that position? 

Mr. McKenna. Since December of 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your sahvry ? 

Mr. McKenna. My sahiry is 73 cents an hour. 

Mr. Matthews. How many other members of the Communist 
Party are employed on this project? 

Mr. McKenna. For the reasons that I have stated, I do not feel 
that I have the right to discuss the political affiliations of other 
people. I think that the question of membership 

The Chaikman. You have stated your reason. Do you decline to 
answer that question for the reasons heretofore oiven ? 

Mr. McKenna. Yes. 

The Chairman. The chair instructs you to do so and you continue 
to decline? 

Mr. McIvENNA. I do. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Matthews if 
he will ask the witness to describe the duties. Will you do that, Mv. 
Matthews — under the W. P. A. work? 

Mr. McKenna. I will be olad to do that. The purpose of the 
project is to secure an estimate of the amount of employment and 
unemployment throughout the country as it varies from one month 
to the next. And in Chicago there are some eight or nine hundred 
households that are included in the survey. These are chosen by 
sampling methods in various parts of the city. They are supposed to 
represent a cross section of the population of the city. 

The work that I have is to take a card that has included in it 
some of the questions — the question of age and the question of the 
employment status of individuals, and to use this card on which to 
inscribe information, information for the purpose of this survey, 
and I interview during — for 1 week, approxiuiately 1 week each 
month, and during that period I visit about 100 families and get 
this information from them. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. McKenna. who is the head of your project? 

Mr. McKenna. Well, I don't — there is a Mr. Wattenberg that is 
in the Chicago office. 

The Chairman. How do you spell that name, do you know? 

Mr. McKenna. I am not certain of the spelling. I think it is 
W-a-t-t-e-n-b-e-r-g or W-o-t. I don't know what — I don't know 
which it is. 

The Chairman. Is he the head of the whole thing? 

Mr. McKenna. He is in Chicago. 

Mr. Thomas. What is he the head of? Your particular project? 

Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. He is the head of this project there. 

Mr. Thomas. What is the address of the headquarters of that 
organization? 

Mr. McKenna. Eoom 1175 Merchandise Mart. 

Mr. Matthews. What is his first name or initial? 

Mr. McKenna. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been to Moscow? 

Mr. McKenna. No, I never have. 

Mr. Matthews. When you obtained your present employment, 
Mr. McKenna, what name did you use on your application blank? 

Mr. McKenna. I used the name that was on my Social Security 



UN-AMEKICAX TROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7715 

munber. the name uiuler which 1 had hekl i)revu)iis positions — I 
lield a position at, for \Val<iien & Co, Mr. Walgren 

Mr. Matthews. What name did you use? 

Mr. McKexna. I used the name ''Thomas Stanley." 

^Ir. I^Iattiiews. That is not your correct name? 

Mr. ]\IcKenxa. This is the name under which I work. According 
to the hiws of the State of Illinois a person has a right to choose 
or use a name or whatever names he desires to use. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Ditl you have that name registered with the courts 
of the State of Illinois? 

Mr. McKexna. No. It is not required that names be registered. 

Mr. Maitiiews. In other words, in making your application for 
employment with the United States Government you also thought 
it necessary to use a false name? 

Mr. McKexxa. I continued to use the name that was on my Social 
Security number. 

Ml-. Matthews. You had given a false name in your Social Secur- 
it}' registration i 

]\Ir. McKexna. I had given the name "Thomas Stanley,'' which is 
the name I used in order to secure employment for the purpose of 
supporting my family. I have a wife an.d child and at the time I 
secured employment iny wife was about to have a child. It was 
necessary that we — that 1 secure employment. I secured employ- 
ment. 

The Chairman. All right, I thiidv you have made a full answer. 

]Mi-. ^Iatthews. Mr. ]\IcKenna, have you ever seen a copy of the 
D.'mocratic Front, by Earl Browder? 

]\Ir. McKenna. I have. 

Mv. Matthews. You are acquainted with the document? 

Mr. McKenna. I am. 

]Mr. Matthews. I read you from page 65, and you may follow as 
I read : 

It i.s in the circulation of our most important newspapers however, that we 
are alarmingly backward. The Daily Worker, Sunday Worker and Daily 
Record, and People's World are already of a quality sufficiently high, notwith- 
.standing all needed improvements, to justify a circulation ten times that whicix 
they now have. 

All the conditions are present to justify us in demanding from every State 
organization the rapid expansion of the circulation of these papers. 

Do you understand Mr. Browder to include the Daily Record as. 
one of the Communist Party publications? 

Mr. McKenna. Xot by that statement. 

]\Ir. Matthew^s. In that statement ? 

Mr. McKenna. No, I certainh^ could not. I understand Earl 
Browder to have said there, and we all recognize this, that the ques- 
tion of building a paper in Chicago, particularly that woidd be u 
voice of the labor, whole labor, and progressive movement, was a need 
of the people of Chicago and that the people of this whole country, 
and that the Communist Party was interested, very much interested 
in developing this — in helping to give the people of Chicago an 
opportunity to read the real news about what was happening in the 
world and about what was happening in regard to the needs 
of the people — the various legislation that was proposed, and to 



7716 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

assist the people in organizing tlieir — strengthenino- their trade-union 
movements, and so forth. 

I think when Mr. Browder used it, spoke of the need of developing 
this and the need of the Communist Party doing everything in its 
power to increase the circulation, he was speaking in the interests 
of all the people, that it is not only the task of the Connnunist Party 
to do that, but of all progressives to do this. 

The Chairman. All right, I think that is pretty full. 

Now, let me ask you a question or two. During the period that 
you have been a member of the Communist Partv, have you eno-aged 
in any union activities outside of the Guild ? 

Mr. McKenna. No. I was not — as a matter of fact I was not an 
active member of the Newspaper Guild. 

The Chairman. Any organizations that you have belonged to other 
than the Guild and the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKenna. Since the time — I probably have belonged to, let 
me see what organizations — my chief activity was in the Communist 
Party. I have held — I think I — I think that I have joined certain 
organizations, certain other organizations. 

The Chairman. Will you state what oiganizations they are? 

Mr. McKenna. First, I want to make this clear, the fact that the 
organization I would belong to, when I mention the name of the 
organization or those organizatious, the fact that I am a member 
of the organization should not be used in any way against that 
organization. 

The Chairman. I am just merely asking you what organizations 
you have belonged to. 

Mr. McKenna. I want to say, for exam])le, I am on the register 
list of precinct voters. That doesn't make the rest — inake an;y other 
person a Communist. 

The Chairman. I just merely asked you what organizations you 
belonged to. 

Mr. McKenna. I am a member of the Labor Non-Partisan Leapue 
in the fifth ward in the city of Chicago. 

The Chairman. All right, what others? 

Mr. McKenna. At the present time I think that is the only or- 
ganization other than the Communist Party to which I belong. 

The Chairman. Did you belong to the American League for Peace 
and Democracy? 

Mr. McKenna. I did belong to the American League for Peace 
and Democracy. 

The Chairman. Did you belong to the International Workers 
Order? 

Mr. McKenna. No. 

The Chairman. Never joined? 

Mv. McKenna. No. 

The Chairman. Do you have any affiliation with International 
Labor Defense? 

Mr. McKenna. None. 

The Chairman. The only two organizations — the only three or- 
ganizations to which you belong are Labor Non-Partisan League, the 
Guild, and the Communist Party? 

Mr. McKenna. That is during the period of my membership in 
the Communist Party. 



UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7717 

Tlie CHAimr.vN. All ri»>lit. 

Mr. Mason. May I ask a ([uestioii now, Mr. Chairman? What 
was the last date that yon worked as circnlation nianajrer of tlie 
Daily Record? That is, when did yon sever yonr connection there? 

Mr. McKkxxa. It was Julv — I think it was 'July of this hist year. 

mv.K 

Mr. Masox. Jnly 1939? 

Mr. McKenxa, Yes. sir. 

!Mr. Mason. Then yon were circnlation manager of that Daily 
Ret'oi'd when they <iot ont a si)ecial edition of oO.OOO copies to cir- 
cnlarizo in the city of Rockford jnst previons to the 1938 election in 
Avhich they majored on a lot of lies abont me to try to defeat me 
for my reelection ? 

Mr. M( Kexna. I (jnestion very seriously whether there wonld be 
any statements that were not exact facts printed in the Daily Record, 
knowinu" it. 

Mr. Mason. AVell. there were many statements in that special edi- 
tion circulated in Rockford. supposedly TiCOOO copies, about me and 
my personal aifairs, which were lies absolutely. 

Ml'. ^NIcKexna. Well, now. and I think that there are many occa- 
sions on which it appears that certain statements are or feel that 
certain statements are lies. Some are matters of opinion. I think 
that tlie Daily Record did take a stand relatino- to legislative ques- 
tion-^, relatino- to individuals runnino: for political office. 

Mr. Mason. This had nothin<>- to do with legislative questions. 

jNIr. ZvIcKenx'a. Peoi)le ruiniing for political office. I think that 
was the time you were running for political office and I think the 
Daily Record did publish — I think I do rememl)er that occasion, the 
Daily Record did })ublisli material and information al)oiit your record, 
about your activities, and I th.ink that it urged the progressive people 
not to vote for you. I think that was true; it did take a stand 
ao-aiiisl vonr candidacv and told whv it took a stand. 

Mv. Ma.son. The point I ^vant to make is that these lies were fur- 
nished to the editorial statF of the Daily Record, and they accepted 
them witliout verifying them and published them. 

Mr. McKenna. I was in the circidtition department. All I know 
is tluit in my opinion our i)aper was a very fine paper, a paper that 
gave facts that could be found in no other papers; that all the in- 
formation where I had a chance to see whether it was true or not 
was ti'ue, and I don't know the particular instances — I did not travel 
in R(»ckford — I don't know what the situation is there, but I feel it 
would be correct. 

Mr. ^Iattheavs. Have von been emploved on anv other projects 
on AA'. P. A.? 

Mr. ^tlcIvENNA. Xo; I haven't. 

Mr. ^NTatthews. Your only comiection with W. P. A. has been since 
DcNH'inber i 

Ml'. MrlvEXNA. That is right: or in D^^cember — not since. 

The C HAii::.E\N. Did you ever do any organizing work for any 
union ( 

Mr. McKenxa. No: I never have. 

The CH^IInIAN. Never had any of that? 

Mr. IucKenxa. No. 



organiza- 



7718 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. In the event of a war between the United States 
and tiie Soviet Union, where wonki your alleojiance lie ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is an objectionable question, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chaikman. Do you decline to answer^ 

Mr. CoHN. That is an objectionable question calling for the opinion 
of the witness, a question that is incompetent and irrelevant and 
immaterial. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. CoHN. And that question is not within the scope of this exami- 
nation. 

The Chairman. Do you object to the cjuestion on these grounds? 

Mr. CoHN. I do. 

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question? 

Mr. McKenna. On the grounds stated by my attorney, I do. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer, and you refuse to 

do so ? 

Mr. McKenna. On the grounds previously stated I do. 
'The Chairman. In connection with your office in the Communist 
Party, I believe you said you were — what are you now ? 

Mr. JMcKenna. AVard committeeman of the fifth ward 
tion of the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. How many members of the committee are th^re? 

Mr. McKenna. Of the ward committee? 

The Ck airman. Yes. 

Mr. McKenna. There are about — oh, I think about 10 is the 
number. 

The Chairman. Do you know them all ? 

Mr. McKenna. I do. 

The Chairman. State who they are. 

Mr. ]\IcKenna. For the reasons that I have previously objected — 
objections I have previously raised — I will not divulge the names of 
any persons who belong to my political party. 

The Chairman. You stated your reasons, and do you decline to 
answer that question? 

Mr. McKenna. I decline to ansvrer the question. 

The Chairman. For the reasons given ? 

Mr. McKenna. For the reasons I gave, that I don't want — I want 
to make this clear 

The Chairman. You have already stated your reasons. 

Mr. ISIcKenna. I don't think I have the right to discuss the 
political 

The Chairman. You have stated that two or three times. 

Mr. McKenna. To discuss the political opinions of other people. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs j^ou to answer the question, and 
you decline to do so for the reasons stated? 

Mr. McKenna. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, any other questions? Call the next 
witness. His name is Mr. Lightfoot. 

Mr. Clafde Lightfoot. Mr. Chairman. I would like to postpone 
this until I have time to discuss it with my counsel; I arrived in 
town this morning and haven't had time to discuss it with my 
counsel. 

The Chairman. Weren't you discussing this with your counsel a 
moment ago? 



rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7719 

Mf. Ci.Ai-nt: LioiiTFooT. No. 

The CiiAiKMAX. Then snpj)ose you uo out thei-e and discuss it, but 
MO want to <iet through so we can let you <ro home. 

Mr. Coiix. Mv. Cluiinnan. I had stepped away for a half a moment. 
I note that you haye teiininated the examination of Mr. McKenna. 
Now, I want to ask Mi'. ^IcKenna some questions. 

The Chairman. And we will ijiye you the same ruling. 

]Mi". (\)HX. I Avould like to read into the record a new text that I 
think has not yet come to your attention, called The Deyelopments 
of Congressional Inyestigatiye Power, by Professor McGerry, of 

The Chairman. The Chair declines you that right. You have your 
exception in the record. 

Mr. CoHX. I would also like to read to you a statement made by 
Felix Fi-ankfurter prior to the time that he became Justice of the 
United States Supreme Court. 

The Chairman. You have stated that and the ruling is the same 
as before. 

Mr. CoHN. Note an exception. 

The Chairman. All right. 

]Mr. CoHN. ^Nly theory is that I have a right to cross-examine for 
the purpose of completing the record aftei- tliere is a direct examina- 
tion which may not have given tlie witness a full opportunitj' to 
bring out what he desires to relate to the committee. 

The Chairman. All right, yon have made your statement and now 
will you confer witli your client i 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to have an opportunity, an hour to confer 
with Mr. Light foot. 

Tlie Chairman. The witnesses who have been subpenaed and who 
are present. Tony DeMaio. Milton Wolif. Fred Keller, and Gerald 
Cook. They aie witnesses who have been subpenaed and they will 
remain here subject to the call of the committee. You will let the 
clerk of the connuittee know where you are located and he will advise 
3'ou when we will hear you. "We will hear you as soon as possible. 

Mr. Schavab. Mr. Chairman. I am attorney for the witnesses you 
have just named. My name is Irving Schwab. 551 Fifth Avenue, 
Xew York. 

Xow. I would like to ask this body to consider my convenience and 
see if we can set the hearing for some definite time. 

I left a case to come down here. I have another matter with the 
Federal court tomorrow morning. My clients want me present and 
I feel sure 

The Chairman. How many clients do you represent? 

]Mr. Schwab. I represent the four you have just named. Xow, if 
you expect to call them tomorrow I will appreciate it if you will 
let me know or give me an idea when they will be called. 

The Chairman. You say you have a case pending in the Federal 
court tomorrow ? 

Mr. Schwab. Yes. Now, I could postpone it. It is a writ of habeas 
corpus, but I prefer not to. 

The Chairman. Suppose we set the hearing at 10 o'clock tomorrow 
morning. "Would that be convenient to you? Can you arrange to 
postpone your case in Xew York so as to be here? 

Mr. Schwab. "Well, will we finish by tomorrow? 

949::i— 40— vol. ]3 4 



7720 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. We will be finished with these four but as I under- 
stand it, there are a number of witnesses in connection with this 
matter that will have to be heard and you might want to be present 
when the other witnesses are examined. 

Mr. Schwab. I prefer Monday. I did not consult my clients. 

The Chairman. Would Monday be more convenient to you? But 
we better set it for in the morning and with these four witnesses we 
can conclude the hearing in the morning as far as they are concerned, 
I am satisfied. 

Mr. Schwab. Will the committee understand that is subject to my 
calling New York and arranging an adjournment. I don't think I 
will have any trouble but should there be trouble 

The Chairman. We want to accommodate you 

Mr. Schwab. No chance of being heard this afternoon? 

The Chairman. No, because the members have to be on the floor. 
We have sat here all morning and it is rather difficult to sit in the 
afternoon. As I understand a postponement was arranged for these 
witnesses once. 

Mr. Schwab. That was not their fault. They were on trial as 
everj'body knows. I arranged it specifically with the understanding 
I thought we would be heard today. 

The Chairman. Suppose we set it for tomorrow morning at 10 
o'clock. 

Mr. ScHW^AB. A¥ell, if I can't get it adjourned, can I get in touch 
with anybody? 

The Chairman. You get in touch with us. and let us know. 

Mr. Schwab. Mr. Chairman, I suppose it is understood the wit- 
nesses are here right in the hearing room now. You understand, Mr. 
Chairman, the witnesses are here now. 

The Chairman. That is what I understand and that is the reason 
I announced the hearing will be tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

Mr. CoHN. We are ready, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right, raise your right hand. Do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole trutli, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. Claude Lightfogt. I do. 

The Chairman. Have a seat. 

TESTIMONY OF CLAUDE LIGHTFOOT, ORGANIZER FOR THE COM- 
MUNIST PARTY IN THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your full name ? 

Mr. Lightfogt. Claude Lightfoot. 

The Chairman. May we have order, please. The Chair announces 
that the committee is proceeding as a subcommittee with the chair- 
man, Mr. Mason, and Mr. Voorhis present. Proceed. 

jMr. Matthews. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Lightfogt. I was born in Lake Village, Ark. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. Lightfogt. Jamiary 10, 1910. 

Mr. ]\LvTTHEWS. How long have you been a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Lightfoot. About 9 vears. 



UN-A.MKUI("A.\ ritOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7721 

Mr. Matthews. And what is vour pi'escnt jjosition \u the Com- 
iiHinist Party, it' any? 

]\Ir. LiGHTFODT. I am the ortiunizer of the Communist Party in 
the soiith-siile community of Chieauo- 

Mr. Matthews. How louii- have you held tliat })Osilion? 

Mr. LiGHTFOoT. AW'll. 1 held that position about 3 months. 

Mr. MArrHEW'.-;. Have you held other positions in the Communist 
Party |)rior to the one you now hold? 

Mr. LiGiiTFooT. I was the educational director of the party in the 
State of Illinois. 

yiv. Matthews. Educational director for the entire State of Illi- 
nois^ 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ^Ia'ithews. For how Ion<i- did you hold that position? 

yiv. Li(;htfoot. One year. 

Mr. Matthhws. And prioi- to that? 

Mr. Lk.hifoot. I was the State chairuuin of the Young Communist 
League. 

^Ir. ]Matiiiews. Hoav long did you hold that position? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. xVbout ?> years. 

Mr. ^lATiHrAvs. You hehl that position about 3 years? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Have you held any other positions than these? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Well. I have held various positions in functional 
capacity. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you a member of the Y^oung Conunimist 
League before you joined the Connnunist Party? 

^Ir. LiGHTFOOT. No; I was a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of both^ 

Mr. Lkjhtfoot. I was a member of both. 

3Ir. .^Iatthews. Did you join at the same time ? 

Mr. L.GHTiooT. Xo. I joined the Young Communist League later. 

'Mi: ^Mattfiews. Are you a member 

Tlie Chairman. Will you speak a little louder, please? 

^Ir. M.vtthews. Are you a member of a trade-union? 

Mr. Lk.htfoot. I am a member of no trade-union. 

^ir. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of any union? 

^Ir. LiGHTFOOT. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever engaged in any trade-union organ- 
ization or activities? 

^Ir. LiGHTFOOT. Xo; I haven't. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you bring the records which were specified in 
the .-ubpena ? 

Mr. Li(;htfoot. I have no records. 

-Mr. Matthews. With you? 

]\Ir. LiGHTFOOT. I have no records. 

My. Matthews. You have no records? 

Mv. l^iGHTFOOT. I have no records. 

^Ir. Mattheavs. Of any kind? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Xo. 

Tlie chairman. You mean you kept no records? 
Ml'. Lk;htfoot. Destroyed all records Ave had. 

Tlie Chairman. You destroyed all the records? When did you de- 
Strov the records? 



7722 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Destroyed them as rapidly as we get them. 

The Chairman. You destroy records as rapidly as you get them? 

Ml'. LiGHTFOOT. Yes. 

The CiiAiRMAX. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. You have no fiuaucial records? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I have no records at all. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Lightfoot, in the event of a war between the 
United States and the Soviet Union, where would your allegiance 
lie? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I think that question is irrelevant and I decline to 
answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answer and you decline 
to do so? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I decline. 

The CHAiR:\rAN. All right, proceed. 

Mr. jNL^ttiiews. I have no more questions to ask him. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask the witness a question. You state 
3'ou were State chairman of the Communist League — Young Com- 
munist League in Illinois? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I was. 

]\Ir. Thomas. What year? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. For a period of about 3 or 4 years — that was up 
until the last year. 

Mr. Thomas. That covered the whole State? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Yes. 

The Chairman. What other organizations do you belong to besides 
the Young Communist League and the Communist Party? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. At present I am a member of no other organiza- 
tion. 

The Chairman. Have you been a member during the time that 
you were a member of the Connnunist Party of any other organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I have been a member of various civic organiza- 
tions in my community. 

The Chairman. Xoav, your position is director of education, I 
believe 3^011 said? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. My former position was. 

The Chairman. Your present position is what? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Organizer. 

The Chairman. How^ many organizers do you have? Are you 
the only one in your particular section? 

Mv. LiGHTFOOT. About 25. 

Tlie Chairman. Do you know those 25? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Yes. 

The Chairman. Will you state the names of the 25? 

ISIr. LiGHTFOOT. For the reasons that I have already explained, I 
decline to answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to do so and you decline 
to answer? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I decline to answer. 

Mr. CoHN. May I state in full the objections to questions of this 
type, Mr. Chairman? 

Mv. Lynch. Just a minute. 



UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7723 

Tl)o CiiATR^fAN. The objections tliat have previously been stated? 

Mr. CoHX. May 1 state in full what the objections are? 

Tlie Chaiijmax. You have already stated the objections. We will 
carry those same objections with this unless you have some addi- 
tional. 

Mr. C'oHx. Are you ret'errino- to the previous witnesses? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Coiix. For all the reasons stated by the previous witnesses, this 
■^vitne>s likewise declines to answer. 

Mr. LioHTFooT. Mr. Chairman, could I state my reasons aside from 
tlu' reasons 

The Chairmax. Do you have any additional reasons? 

Mr. CoHX. Yes. 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I have this reason. I believe that if any names 
fire submitted here they will be used as a black list for jobs. 

The Chairmax'. That has been oiven. 

^Ir. LiGHTFOOT. And my people are blacklisted from the right to 
vote in Texas and I don't want them blacklisted from jobs in 
Chicaso. 

The Chairmax. All rio;ht ; any other witne.sses? 

]Mr. Lyxch. What other occupations have yon had except as or- 
ganizer or educational director for the Comnmnist Party? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I have had no other occupation in the last 9 
years other than functionary of the Communist Party. 

yiv. Lyxch. For the 9 years, what was your occupation then? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I was a student. 

]Mr. Lyxch. Where? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Hi<ih school. 

]Mr. Lyxch. What high school? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. And college. 

]Mr. Lyxch. What high school { 

^h. LiGHTFOOT. Wendell Phillips High School. 

Mr. Lyxch. Chicago!' 

^Ir. LiGHTFOOT. Chicago. 

Mr. Lyxch. You went I'ight from high school into the Communisl 
I*arty work, is that corrects 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. About a year later. 

Mr. Lvx-^cH. During that year you engaged in no occupation? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I worked part-time 

Mr. Lyxch. Wheie? 

]\Ir. LiGHTFOOT. Pu.llman Co. 

]\Ir. Lyxch. As a porter? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. No, car cleaner. 

Mr. Lyxch. ^ATiere? 

Mr. IviGHTFOoT. Chicago. 

Mr. Lyxch. Doing what at tlie Pullman Co.? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Car cleaner. 

Mr. Lyxch. Have you been employed at any time on any Federal 
or State relief project ^ 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I have been emploved on no Government project. 

Mr. Lyxch. On both? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT, On none. 

Mr. Lyxch. Are you a member of the Workers' Alliance? 



7724 ux-a:mericax propaganda activities 

Mr. LiGHTFOCT. I am not a member of the Workers' Alliance. 

Mr. Lynch. Have von ever been a member of the Workers' 
Alliance? 

Mv. LiGHTFOoT. I have never been a member of the Workers' 
Alliance. 

INIr. Lynch. How ]on<i- did you work for the Pullman Co.? 

Mr. LroHTFOor. Oh. about 6 months. 

Mr. Lynch. You quit your job and went to 

Mr. Lightfo'ot. Went to school. \ 

Mr. Lynch. What is that? 

]Mr. LiGHTFOoT. Went to school. 

Mr. Lynch. And after school you went right in to the work 

]Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I remained unemjDloyed. 

Mr. Lynch. For how long? 

INIr. LiGHTFOCT. Well, about 6 months or a j^ear almost. 

Mr. Lynch. Then you went to work with the Comnumist Party? 

Mr. Lightfoot. That is right. 

Mr. Lynch. How much is your salary now? 

Mr. Lightf(.ot. $20 a week. 

Mv. Lynch. And who pays your salary? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Financial secretary. 

Mr. Lynch. And who is the financial secretary? 

Mr. Lightfoot. I decline to answer for the reasons enumerated 
before. 

The Chairman. You are instructed to answer the question and you 
decline to do so? 

Mr. Lightfoot. I decline. 

Mr. Lynch. Now. in the records, as organizers, you come in 
contact with the new members who are secured, don't you? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Yes. I do. 

Mr. Lynch. And if a new member is secured, say like John 
Smith, he is issued a card; isn't he? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Issued a card? 

Mr. Lynch. Yes. 

Mr. Lightfoot. No. 

Mr. Lynch. No card is issued. 

Mr. Lightfoot. No card is issued. 

Mr. Lynch. How does he know he is a member — what creden- 
tials does he have? 

Mr. Lightfoot. He has no credentials. 

Mr. Lynch. How does he know he is a member? How does he 
know he is being accepted and can attend a branch meeting? 

Mr. Lightfoot. After he pays his dues. 

Mr. Lynch. Does he get a receipt? 

Mr. Lightfoot. No. 

Mr. Lynch. Don't you put a stamp in his book? 

Mr. Lightfoot. No. 

Mr. Lynch. Don't you have any party books? 

Mr. Lightfoot. No. 

Mr. Lynch. Well, who knows whether he is a member when he 
comes to a meeting? 

INIr. Lightfoot. The members know each other. 

Mr. Lynch. And how many members do you have in Chicago? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Oh, I don't know exacti}' in Chicago. 



UX-AMERICAX rUOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7725 

]Mr. LvNcii. Ai)[)i()xiinatcly. 

Mr. LiGiiTFOOT. About 5.000. 

Mr. Lynch. In Chicago alone? 

^Jr. LioiiTFooT. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. How many do you have in the entire State of 
Illinois. 

]\Ii'. LioHTFOOT. Oh, about G.OOO. 

]Mr. Lynch. And do you send the names of the new members to 
the head(juarters in New York? 

Mr. Lic.HTFOOT. "We do not. 

Mr. Lynch. What? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. We do not. 

Mr. Lynch. What is your social-security number, under what 
name? 

Mr. LioiiTFOOT. I haven't got my number .on me, 

Mr. Lynch. AVhat ? 

]Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I haven't got my number with me, and I can't 
recall it by memory. 

Mr. Lynch. You don't have it with you? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. No. 

]Mr. Lynch. Is it under your name? 

]Mr. LiciHTFOOT. It is under my name. 

]Mr. Ly'nch. Well, if there are no lists kept how do you determine 
that there are approximately 5,000 members in Chicago? 

Mr. LiGHTFCOT. We determine that on the basis of .cUies. 

Mr. Lynch. And you make your reports of those dues to New 
Tork, don't you ? 

Mr. LiGHiTooT. Well, we send a certain percentage of our dues 
monej' to New York. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you send that by check or cash? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Send it through various methods. I am not 
familiar. 

Mr. Ly'nch. Do you send it by check or cash ? 

]Mr. LiGHTFOOT. We send our money from the community I am 
working in to the State and the State to New York. AAHiether they 
send it b}' cash or check, I don't know. 

Mr. Lynch. AMiere is the State headquarters? 

]Mr. LiGHTFOOT. In Chicago. 

Mr. Ly'Nch. Where in Chicago? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. 208 North Wells Street, room 201. 

Mr. Lynch. Who is in charge there? 

]Mr. LiGHTFOOT. Morris Chilcls. 

Mr. Lynch. What is his position ? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. State executive secretary. 

^Ir. Ly'nch. And you give him the money that is collected from 
youi' ))articular organization? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. I don't; the financial secretary handles it. 

Mr. Lynch. And then he in turn turns it over to New York? 

Mr. LiGHTFOOT. New York. I ]:)resume he turns it over to the 
State financial secretary. 

Mr. Lynch. And who in turn turns it over to New York at the 
national headciuarters ? 

^Ir. Lk;htfoot. Perhaps. 



7726 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Lynch. And if you submit say $100 to tliat particular party, 
you have to let him know v.hat it is for, don't you. whether for dues 
or Earl Browder's defense fund, don't you? 

]Mr. LiGHTFooT. Of course. 

Mr. Lynch. And do you write a letter on that ? 

Mr. LiGHTFOGT. Do I write a letter to who ? 

Mr. Lynch. The man you sent the money to. 

Mr. LiGHTFOGT. It is carried downtown — a veiy simple process^ 
streetcar and automobile and you get there. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you have a list what it is for, whether for dues? 

Mr. LiGHTFooT. We have a list for dues speciHed. 

Mr. Lynch. Don't you keep a record of that for your own infor- 
mation ? 

Mr. LiGHTFOoT. I don't keep a record. 

Mr. Lynch. Does anybody keep a record in your office? 

Mr. LiGHTFooT. I don't keep a record and no one else keeps a 
record. 

Mr. Lynch. You destroy all records? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Destroy all records. 

Mr. Lynch. How long have you had the practice of destroying 
records ? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Since our offices and homes have been invaded b\ 
people. 

Mr. Lynch. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. CoHN; Will you allow him to finish, Mr. Lynch? 

Mr. Lynch. What time was that? 

Mr. Lightfoot. That started about October. 

Mr. Lynch. October what year? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Last year. 

Mr. Lynch. Was your home ever invaded? 

Mr. Lightfoot. ^ly home personally was not. 

Mr. Lynch. Have you been instructed from New York to destroy 
all records? 

Mr. Lightfoot. I have been receiving no instructions from Xew 
York. 

Mr. Lynch. Who told you to destroy the records ? 

Mr. Lightfoot. ^fy State secretary. 

Mr. Lynch. Who is the State secretary? 

Mr. Lightfoot. Morris Childs. 

Mr. Lynch. He gave you that information last October? 

Ml'. Lightfoot. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. That is all. 

Mr. Lightfoot. Mr. Chairman, I would like to raise a question 
before the committee. It is not relevant to the investigation 

Mr. Lynch. Then I submit he hasn't any right to raise it. 

The Chairman. If it isn't relevant to the investigation we can't 
hear it. 

The committee will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 
10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 12:40 ]). m., the hearing was adjourned until 10 
a. m., Friday, April 12, 1940.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



FRIDAY, APRIL 12, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee ox Un-A:merican x^ctivities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) pre- 
iridin<i. 

The CiiAiRMAX. The committee will come to order. The Chair is 
sitting- as a subconnnittee of one under the regulations, until the other 
members arrive. 

^Irs. Selby is your first witness. Mrs. Selby. will you raise your 
right hand. Do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 

Mrs. Walter Owens Selby. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. WALTER OWENS SELBY, CHESTERTOWN, MD. 

]Mr. Lynch. Your name is Mrs. "Walter Owens Selby? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And your home is in Chestertown, Md.? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Lynch. On the Eastern Shore? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And, Mrs. Selby, your son, Vernon, went to Spain 
in May 1937, did he not ? 

Mrs. Selby. Xo; September. 

Mr. Lynch. September 1937? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And thereafter did you receive letters from him from 
time to time? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes; beginning October 14. 

Mr. Lynch. Lntil when did you receive your last letter from him, 
Mrs. Selby? 

]Mrs. Seij5Y. February 27, 193S. Tliat is. it was dated February 
27, 1938. I received it about 4 weeks later. 

]Mr. Lynch. And this is the letter here, is it not? 

[Handing letter to the witness.] 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And he sa3's in here that he received your letter of 
January 22 and was glad to hear from you. 

There is very little I am able to tell yon except that I am well and getting 
aloii<r okay. There conlcl be more {o tell you but the censorship prohibits it so 
I will have to save all that for a later date. 

7727 



7728 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

And there are some other matters which are not pertinent. Were 
there other occasions when some of his letters were not received, Mrs. 
Selby? 

Mrs. Selby. I don't think I missed more tlian two or three, probably 
four, at the most. 

Mr. Lynch. Did there come a time when j^ou were advised that 
he was missing? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And did you take the matter up with the State De- 
partment? 

Mrs. Selby. At once. 

Mr. Lynch. Through Congressman Goldsborough who was your 
Congressman ? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. I had the notice April 8 that he was missing April 
1. That is when I received the notice but he was missing April 1. 

Mr. Lynch. Missing April 1, 1938? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lynch. You did not know that he was going to Spain until 
after he had left, did you ? 

Mrs. Selby. No, I didn't have any idea until I received his first 
letter. 

Mr. Lynch. Now, did you receive this letter from Simon Leinoff, 
dated March 23, 1939. from Los Angeles, Calif., sent to you at Ches- 
tertown. Mel. ? 

Mrs. Selby. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. I would like to read this letter into the record. It is 
on the letterhead of the Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, 
617 Union League Building, Los Angeles, Calif. The letter is dated 
March 23, 1939. 

Dear Mrs. Sei>by : It grieves me very iiiucli that you are taking your son's 
absence so liard. I'm sure he would not like you to worry so much. 

I have made inquiries concerning your son and cannot get anything definite, 
but regardless of where he is, or what happened to him, you must understand 
that he went to Spain because he believed in democracy, and he knew he was 
on the side of justice. He had the courage of his convictions whicli really 
puts him on a part with Washington and Lincoln. Please remember that 
worrying yourself to a nervous breakdown will not do you or anybody else any 
good, only harm. You should accept the fact that he is missing and, of course, 
if he is able to write to you he would, as I surmise from your letter. 

I have asked about Mr. Honecombe, but evidently he is not in this city at 
the present time. 

Am extremely sorry you have gone through so much distress, Mrs. Selby, 
but remember that by worrying you are merely doing what your son would not 
want you to do, so try to keep yourself under control, or else you will be a case 
for a doctor. 

Sincerely yours, 

Simon Leinoff. 

And on this letterhead the officers and sponsors, which the reporter 
can copy into the record, appear together with the national sponsors. 

(The officers, sponsors, and national sponsors referred to by Mr. 
Lynch, are as follows:) 

Officers : C. H. Jordan, chairman. Secretary American Radio Telegraph Asso- 
ciation ; ;Mrs. Alice Eaton, honorary chairman and Morris Lappin, treasurer, 
and Sophie Feider. executive secretary. 

Sponsors: Rube Boroughts, Harold Buchman, James Cagney, Supervisor John 
Anson Ford, Leo Gallagher, Lee E. Geyer, J. W. Gillette, Lillian Hellman, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7729 

Jiuliie Robert W. Kenny. Carey McWilliams. Assenihlyniau Ben Rosenthal, 
,ln(ine Lester \\'. Roth. Frank Sc-iilly. Assemblyman Jack B. Tenny, Oliver 
'ThorntdU. Charles L. Upton, and Clara Weatherwax. 

National sponsors: Conjiressnnui .John T. Bernard. .Muriel Draper, Louis 
Fisher. Henry Hart. John IIon.s(>man. Arehiliald MaeLeish, Jack R. Miller, 
Walliniitord Reisser. William Rollins, Jr.. and Upton Sinclair. 

And also this letter of July 30, 1938, was received by you, was it 
iu.t.Mr>. Selby^ 

|H;UKliu<r letter to the ^vit^ess.] 

Mrs. Sei.hy. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And on the official letterhead appear the names of the 
national officers, sixmsors, Maryland branch, executive secretary, and 
executive connnittee. The re})orter will copy these into the record. 

(Tlie national officers. si)onsors, ]Mai'yland branch chairman, exec- 
utive secretary, and executive committee, are as follows:) 

Nat!(mal officei-s: David MeKelvy Vv'hite, chairman; Wm. D. Leider, treas- 
urer : Phil Bard, executive secretary ; and Jack R. :Miller, national organizer. 

Sponsors: Helen Arthur. Ralph Biites. Congressman John T. Bernard. Clyde 
r.eals, Asa Bordages. James Cagney, Abrani Chasins. iMuriel Draper, Louis 
i'isluT. Francis J. (Jorman. Henry Hart. Lillian Hellman. Langston Hughes, 
Fred Keating. Julia Church Kolar. Arthur Kober. Archibald MaeLeish, Carl 
Sandburg. Wallingford Reigger, Isabel Walker Soule. Upton Sinclair, Donald 
Ogden Stewart, and Paul Strum. 

Maryland branch: Chairman, Frederick Arnold Kummer. Sr. 

ExiciUive secretary: < 'olenuin Bhun. 

Executive committee: :Margaret Baker, Dr. Albert E. Blumberg, Alphonse 
Butrow, Michael Gallo, Gregory Krause, Frederick Arnold Kummer, Jr., Rev. 
Joseph S. Nowak. Jr.. C. A. B. Shreve. Dr. Ross Thalheimer. Fanny Tuomi, and 
( harles Williams. 

Mr. Lynch. The name of Dr. Albert E. Blumberg appears among 
the names of the executive conmiittee. 

This letter is dated July 30, 1939. It reads : 

5Iy Dkab Mrs. Sf.iby : I trust you will pardon my seeming neglect in not 
answering you sooner as I have been busy moving and have spent little time 
at the office. 

I take pleasure in enclosing a couple of tickets from the last meeting in 
Baltimore as per your request. We hope to have another like it next month. 

Hereafter kindly write to your sou in care of the following address: 

■'Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, care of Comite Internationale 
cVAide de Peuple Espagnol. 1 Cite Paradis. Paris, France," who will then 
jittf'mp* delivery of all mail addres.sed through them. 

Kindly address any checks to Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, 
^laryhind Branch. 

I hope to get to New York soon and will do my utmost there to find out 
some news of interest to you. In the meantime I hf)pe you will continue to 
*"keep your chin up" and liope for the liest. I am sure the mystery will be 
solved s.ion. .May I extend my kindest personal wishes to you and your 
family, and suggest you feel free to call on me at any time. 
Cordially yours, 

Coleman Blum. 

And I think. Mrs. Selby. you said that in April 1938 you were 
<jfficiallv advised throuffh Conoressman Goldsborouoh, who had taken 
the matter uj) with the State Department, that your son was evi- 
dently missing at that time? 

^Irs. Selby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lynch. And you have never been able to find out what really 
haj)]jened to him. have you? 

yir^. Si:lby. No. 

:Mr. Lynch. That is all. 



7730 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Selby. 

Mr. Lynch. May tlie witness be excused, Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. Yes, the witness is excused. 

The next witness is Maxwell M. Wallach. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your riglit hand and be sworn. Dc 
you solemnly swear to tell the triith, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ^ 

TESTIMONY OF MAXWELL M. WALLACH, DETROIT, MICH. 

]Mr. Wallach. I do. 

Mr. Lynch. Mr. AVallach, will you give the reporter your full 
name, please, sir? 

Mr! Wallach. Maxwell M. Wallach. 

Mr. Lynch. And your address, JNIr. Wallach? 

Mr. Wallach. Hotel Imperial, Detroit, JNIich. 

Mr. Lynch. And, Mr. Wallach, did you have a son who went to 
Spain? 

Mr. Wallach. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. What year did he go to Spain? 

Mr. Wallach. In the year 1937, the early part, 

Mr. Lynch. And any particular month? Can you fix it more 
definitely ? 

Mr. Wall.\ch. Well, to the best of my knowledge it was about 
February or March of 1937. 

Mr. Lynch. And kindly give us his age at that time. 

Mr. Wallach. At that time Al was 23 years of age. 

Mr. Lynch. And his full name, please, sir? 

Mr. Wallach. Albert M. Wallach. 

The Chairman. May I announce a subcommittee of the chairman, 
Mr. Voorhis of California and Mr. Thomas of New Jersey. You 
may proceed. 

Mv. Lynch. Mr. Wallach, was he employed at the time he left or 
was he attending school ? 

Mr. Wallach. He was engaged in the advertising business in the 
city of New York. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you know anything about the method in which 
he was recruited? 

Mv. Wallach. Upon investigation last year I ascertained the 
method. 

Mr. Lynch. Will you kindly state it for the benefit of the com- 
mittee, please, sir? 

JNIr. Wallach. I found that he was given a sum of money in the 
city of New York by the so-called International Workers Order at 
No. 80 Fifth Avenue, and that he. together with another gentleman, 
was to go across to Spain, and there he had on his person the sum of 
$3,000, which was to pay the individual expenses of the boys as they 
were needed. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you receive letters from him after his arrival in 
Spain ? 

Mr. Wallach. There were just one or two letters that came from 
him as late as July 1937. 

Mr. Lynch. And after the last letter was received, did you make 
any inquiry or anj^ investigation as to what occurred? 



UN-AMERICAN TKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7731 

Mr. "Wai.i.ach. As soon :is T definitely knew tlnit he was in Spain 
I contacted the Slate Department in Washiniiton and made repeated 
ap|)eal^ for tliem to intercede and obtain his release and discharge 
tVoni S)>ain. 

Mr. Lynch. And did yon receive any information as to what he 
was (hiino- or his whereabonts and condition^ 

Mr. AValla( II. Yes; thronoh the American consul in Spain the 
State Department was able to notify me from time to time just what 
was takino- place there. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you ha\e any particular letter of importance that 
would indicate at any particular time what was occui-ring'^ 

]\fr. Wallach. First I had a teleoram here January 6 from Cordell 
Hull. 

aIv. Lynch. Statina" that the matter would be investigated? 

Mr. "Wallach. That is right. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you have any letters from your son in which he 
descril)ed the conditions over there and what he was doing? 

Mr. AVallach. No. 

INIr. Lynch. Did he say anything as to whether or not there was 
a strict censorshi)) on the informaticm he was able to get to you? 

Mr. Wallach. I had no direct contact with him setting any such 
thing forth. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you receive any information thereafter from any- 
one else i 

Mr. Wallach. I did. I received a card from a salesman out of 
Switzerland who had, in his travels in Spain, contacted and spoken 
to my boy and my son had asked him to write to me so that I should 
be ai)ie to do what I can to get him released and discharged from 
Spain. 

Mr. Lynch. So apparently from that letter your son was unable 
to write yon direct asking that you secure his release? 

Mr. Walla( H. That is what I understood. 

Mr. Lynch. And did you continue your efforts to get him released 
thereafter? 

Mr. Wallach. I did. I sent that card together with my letter to 
the State De])artment and again appealed to the State Department as 
an American citizen to do all they could through the Americn consul 
to have him discharged and sent out of Spain. 

^Ir. Lynch. Aiul they did, of course 

Mr. Wallach. Finally on March 6, 1938, I received a telegram 
from the State Dej)artment stating: ''Your son has been discharged 
and released and is being sent out of Spain," but he never showed up. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you ever check to determine what happened to 
him after that date in March 1938? 

]Mr. Wallach. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. What happened ? 

Mr. Wallach. After receiving that telegram I waited a reascmable 
time and then when lie failed to show up I took sick and I was in the 
hospital for a jjeriod of about 10 weeks, but when I finally came to 
myself I came to Washington, made inquiries and found that they 
had no further word concei'ning the whereabouts or welfare of my 
son. 

I th.en went on to Xew York to investigate and contacted several of 
tlie boys who had succeeded in coming back alive from Spain, and 



7732 ux-AMp:RirAN pkopagaxda activities 

from them I ascertained the facts, which I forwarded, not only to 
the State Department but to the Department of Justice and asked 
Attorney General Murj^hy. at the time, to cause his Department to 
check up on my iuA'estioation and to haA'e these men who were resj^on- 
sible for the killinjr of my scm broufrht to the bar of justice for 
prosecution here. 

Mr. Ltnch. And what did that investijration show, ]Mr. AVallach? 

^Ir. AVallacii. It showed that after several efforts had been made to 
kill my son they finally succeeded in the month of July 1938. 

Mr. Lynch. And the efforts were made by whom to kill him '. 

Mr. Wallach. By the, as I understand it, these people in charge 
of the affairs of the Abraham Lincoln Brioade. This happened in 
a so-called prison camp or jail known as Castle de Fells, which I 
understand is about 25 kilometers south of the city of Barcelona and 
that it was done under the supervision of the officer known as Cap- 
tain Gates, and that the man in charoe of this prison was a fellow 
b}^ the name of Tony de ]Maio, who I understand was the actual 
killer, not only of m}' boy but of six other .Vmerican boys whose re- 
mains to this very moment are in the courtvard of this prison camp. 
Castle de Fells. 

Mr. Lynch. And was there any intimation that they were killed 
because they had sought their release from service on the side of the 
Loyalists in Spain? 

Mr. Wallach. It was because it was known that efforts were l)e- 
ing made in his behalf to have him released that they took a dislike 
to him and decided that the best thing that they could do was to 
kill him rather than have him come back to America and let the 
people here know what these Communists were doing in Spain. 

Mr. Lynch. Do vou recall anv information or any conversation 
when you speak about other Americans, about a young American 
from the west coast — I think from Seattle, named Summers, who was 
a student at one of the large universities out there and was taken 
and enlisted and recruited in the last year? 

Mr. Wallach. Of course, in my conversations with these returned 
soldiers names M'ere mentioned — Summers, a fellow b}^ the name of 
Norris, I think another boy by the name of K<-ller, but, frankly, 
I didn't take particular notice of them. Maybe you will call that 
a selfish interest. I was interested in knowing what happened with 
my boy and that was what I was ccmcerned with. 

Mr. Lynch. I will show you the name of your son. Mr. Wallach, 
"Mr. Albert Wallach," cm the passenger list [handing paper to the 
witness]. 

Mr. Wallach. Of the steamship Parh. 

Mr. Lynch. Of the steamship Pc/rv'.s- of March 1937? 

Mr. Wallach. That is a correct sailing list shovcing my son sailed 
on that ship to Spain. 

Mr. Lynch. These fellows that you contacted up in New York, 
Mr. Wajlach, gave you the infoi-mation which you diligentl}' sou<rht 
out. How diet they describe the conditions existing over there with 
relation to these American boys? 

(No answer.) 

IMr. Lynch. Do you recall any of the conditions they described 
existing in Spain that you can give to the committee? 



IX-AMKlilCA.X riiOPACAXDA ACTI\ ITIHS 7733 

Ml-. Wai.lacii. My <ienern] reaction to the stories I obtained from 
the four or tive that I interviewed in New York was a dissatisfaction 
with the personnel in charge: that the entire movement they found 
upon anival in Sjjain was a selfish one in that those in charge were 
trying to receive all the benefits they could out of the movement and 
that the men themselves were treated like — worse than dogs. 

Mr. Lynch. And when you speak about i-eceiving benefits from the 
movement, did it also inchide financial benefits? 

Mr. Wai.i.ach. Such things as supplies that were sent over instead 
of being distributed among the men were even sold by these so-called 
officials in charge so that they conld have the cash to use upon them- 
selves selfishly'. 

]\Ir. Ltxch. You mean the officials of the Abraham Lincoln 
Brigade? 

Mr. Wallach. That is right. 

Mr. Lyxch. Do you have any letter there particularly, Mr. Wal- 
lach, that describes conditions in S]:)ain? 

Mr. Wallach. I have a letter in addition to the five former soldiers 
of Spain that I interviewed. I received a letter from the Depart- 
ment of State on jNIay 11, in which the}' enclosed a letter from one 
Edward Palega, out of the Chicago office of the Friends of the Abra- 
ham Lincoln Brigade, at 3111 North Sacramento Avenue, Chicago, 
111., dated May 3, 1939, which reads as follows : 

SECRI TARY CORDELJ. HLT.L, 

Dcporfnirut of fitntc. Wafthingtoii, D. C. 

Deaf Sir: If the fatlier of Albert Wallaoh, formerly of the 15th Brigade 
International of the Spanish Loyalist Army is seeliing information about his 
son, please ask liim to communicate with me as I may be able to aid him. 
Very truly yours, 

Edward Palega. 

I then, upon receiving this letter, contacted Mr. Palega. He wrote 
to me on August 26, 1939, as follows : 

My Dear Mr. Wallach. Your son Albert made me promise to let you know 
of his condition if and when I got out of Spain alive. 

I don't know what happened to him. For that reason I hate to say any- 
thing, but he and I were in prison together in the International Brigade prison 
of Castle de Fells, about twenty-five kilometers south of Barcelona. The prison 
was in tlie Castle, Castle de Fells on a hill top overlooking the town. 

We were there together in .June and July 1938. He was arrested in Barcelona 
in June while wearing civilian clothes and while carrying alleged forged papers 
from the American Consul, stating he was under protecrioii <>f tlie United 
States Government. 

For that reason he was suspected of being a spy. One day he was taken 
out of our cell. Two days later, due to a murderous intent of the prison com- 
mander, I was beaten up and thrown into the black hole No. 6. Albert was 
ali'cady there. He had really been given a beating. They had nothing against 
nw so my beating wasn't bad, as I was all right in a lew days. But Albert 
was quite ill and was hardly alile to speak. 

About a week after I entered that cell Albert was taken out in the night- 
time. Though I inquired everywhere I could never learn what hajipened to 
him, btti I am afraid he may have been killed that night. 

I must ask you not to show this letter to any one and above aU not to use 
niy name or quote me. I want no one to know I was in prison and I write this 
only because I promised Al I would. But you now know he was alive until 
sometime in July 1^)88. It may be the clue that will tell you the whole story or 
it may lead you t(» the truth, I don't know which. 

Consul Flood in Barcelona may be able to give ycm more of the story. I 
don't know. But he knew Albert personally during May and June of 1938. 



7734 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Also Colonel Fuqua, American Military Attache, at the Barcelona Consulate 
now. 

May I say by way of explanation that even thouojli the writer asks 
me not to use his name and not to show the letter, I feel it is my duty 
in an expose of this kind to present the facts and I hope I am not 
rewarded ill as a result of reading this letter into the record, because 
I believe the American people here will give this man sufficient ])ro- 
tection that the Communists won't be able to retaliate against him 
for revealing what he knew to have taken place. 

ISIr. Thomas. It is not clear to me why your son and these other 
boys were in prison. Would you please tell the committee what you 
know about that ? You proba])ly have told it. 

Mr. Wallach. The only reason I could ascertain was because 
selfish motives of these individuals in charge of the brigade prompted 
the arresting of these boys who were fighting and agitating against 
their selfish conduct, and because they were afraid that if they 
returned alive to America the people in this country would know 
the facts, they decided to do away with them on the wholesale basis. 

Mr. Lyxch. Mr. Wallach. in that letter which you have just read 
it refers to the fact that your son was carrying papers which showed 
that he was under the protection of the American Government. 
Now, it was a fact that before that time you had endeavored and 
had succeeded, through the State Department, in getting him the 
protection of the American Government over there, hadn't you? 

Mr. Wallach. I had made direct contact with the American consul 
through the State Department. 

Mr. Lynch. So when they speak about having found these papers 
upon your son and whicli they regarded as forgeries, and thought he 
was a spy. the fact was that through your efforts with tlie State 
Department they were actually genuine papers, weren't they? 

Mr. Wallach. Absolutely. ' 

Mr. Lynch. And, of course, you never heard any — there never 
was any question of any trial of anybody over there on matters of 
that sort, was there? 

Mr. Wallach. How could there be a trial ? What Government 
did they represent? They were not connected with the Spanish 
Army or the Spanish Government. They were a bunch of guerrillas 
that went to Spain together and took unto themselves the law. They 
created law for themselves — an irresponsible group. 

INIr. Lynch. Mr. Wallach, are there any other facts or information 
that you have on this inquiry that you feel would be helpful to the 
committee ? 

Mr. Wallach. Well, the only thing is that I know that when 
Judge Murphy was the Attorney General and head of the Depart- 
ment of Justice he had promised me that an investigation would be 
made and if the facts justified tliere would be indictments for the 
recruiting of American boys to be sent over on this foreign mission, 
and though a long time did take place eventually indictments were 
presented in Detroit, and I know that the grand jury, the Federal 
grand jury in New York, was holding sessions and conducting its 
investigations with the hope that indictments there, too, would be 
lodoed against those responsible. 

L"^n fortunately. Judge Mur])hy was promoted and a new man came 
in and the first thing I heard through the press was that on February 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7735 

16 the new Attorney General issued a statement that he would have 
the indictments tlu'own out and the investigation stopped because 
he claimed no public injury was done. 

Now, I say this : A greater public injury than murdering American 
citizens, no matter where it took place, could not possibly' happen. 

Now, wliere is the justification on the part of the Attorney Gen- 
eral in saying that no ])ublic injury was done, and I feel that this 
conunittee. representing the legislative branch of government, is per- 
forming a public duty in arousing the public interest to call upon 
the head of the law-enforcement agency of our Government to re- 
investigate and take this matter up anew against those responsible 
for taking American lives in this irresponsible way in Spain. 

Mr. Thomas. ^Ir. Chairman, I would like to say right there, this 
committee has called upon the Attorney General and the Department 
of Justice for cooperation right from the start and I have yet to see 
a scintilla of cooi)eration from the Department of Justice, particu- 
larly the present Attorney General. 

This matter of quashing those indictments is just typical of the 
kind of things he stands for and does and I am getting sick of it. 

Mr. Wali^vch. After all I feel the so-called Comnnniist interest 
in this country is rather a very small minorit}^, and while protecting 
civil rights of these minorities who are trying to tear the insides 
out of us may be in place, yet at the same time where it is demon- 
strated that human life has been taken and a great public injury has 
been done, the least the Attorney General of the United States can 
do is to see that where the laws have been violated prosecutions 
should take place. Let the American juries pass upon the guilt of 
those responsible. 

Mr. Thomas. That is right. 

Mr. Lynch. Anything further, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to ask a question. 

Mr. Wallach, so far as you know when your son enlisted what did 
he think he was doing? A^Hiat I mean is, What were the motives 
that he had when he first enlisted to go to Spain ? 

Mr. Wallach. AVell, let me make this plain to you. I did not 
Imow that he was enlisting. I did not know for months later that he 
had actually enlisted and gone to Spain. But what I did ascertain 
from, others he thought he was going into a movement that had be- 
hind it the highest human impulse, human ideals, like a great many 
others that went into it, only to find out when they got there that it 
was nothing but a racket operated in this country by a handful for 
their own personal selfish gain. 

Mr. VooRHis. One other question. Don't you think that one thing 
that motivated — I don't know whether it motivated your son, but 
other people — was the fact that they felt that on the other side of 
that struggle that there Avas support being given by foreign gov- 
ernments? 

Mr. Wallach. That probably was the reason as I have ascertained 
from investigation and talking with those that lived to return. 

The Ch^virman. You have made a very extensive investigation? 

Mr. Wallach. I spent several weeks personally contacting men. 
It was liard to get them to talk. They were afraid of their lives even 
when they returned here, for fear these Communists, if they knew 
they were revealing the facts, would kill them here. 

94931 — 40 — vol. 13 5 



7736 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you know of any case where an3^1iing like that 
happened ? 

Mr. Wallach. No, I don't because, frankly speaking, this is the 
first opportunity in a public way that we have had a chance to 
present the evidence. 

The Chairman. Any other questions, gentlemen? 

Mr. Lynch. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, 
Mr. Wallach. 

Mr. Wallach. If you want the picture of Albert for the purpose 
of tying him up with those that returned, I will gladly let you 
have it. 

The Chairman. How old was he when he went to Spain? 

Mr. Wallach. When he enlisted he was 23 years of age. 

The Chairman. A graduate of a high school? 

Mr. Wallach. No, but he was — I might as well put that in the 
record, too. He had attempted to enter West Point and he had 
prepared for entrance to West Point and subsequently received a 
commission as a lieutenant in the Reserve of the American Army 
and was connected with the Three Hundred and Sixth Infantry in 
New York City. 

The Chairman. AVas he an idealistic young man? Was he a young 
man with high ideals? 

Mr. Wallach. Very. 

The Chairman. And believed in democracy? 

Mr. Wallach. He certainly did. 

The Chairman. The type that would be misled into believing that 
he was fighting for a good cause? 

Mr. Wallach. That is right. 

The Chairman. You don't think he would ever have gone to Spain 
if he had thought or if he had known what the situation was? 

Mr. Wallach. Why, of course not. He was American born. His 
interests were those that we, you and I, have receiA^ed as a result of 
attending American institutions of learning. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, this is just one more instance and 
illustration of the idealism of the American youth being capitalized 
by these subversive elements. 

Mr. Wallach. And that is why it is more important that this 
Government protect our youth against its own indiscretions. 

Mr. Thomas. That is right. 

Mr. Lynch. The next witness is Mr. Honeycombe. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand, Mr. Honeycombe. Do you 
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God? 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. HONEYCOMBE, EOEMER MEMBER OF THE 

ABRAHAM LINCOLN BRIGADE 

Mr. Honeycombe. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state your full name for the 
record ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. John Gordon Honeycombe. 

The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, before we go on with the examination 
of this witness the Chair has received information — I don't know how 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7737 

authontic it is — that one of the witnesses here to testify was beaten 
up last night; that a group practically kidnaped him and inflicted 
bodily injury upon him. I don't know whether there is any founda- 
tion for that or not, but this committee must protect the witnesses 
who appear here. 

I think there ought to be some determination of that fact and im- 
mediate means should be made to protect all witnesses, regardless of 
who they are, when they attend this committee. They are entitled 
to the protection of the (jrovernment of the United States, so I think 
that it might be well for us to go into that phase of it if you can, as 
soon as possible. 

Mr. Lynch. Very well. 

Mr. Matthews ISIr. Honeycombe, what is your address? 

Mr. Honeycombe. 223 North Oxford Street, Los Angeles, Calif. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Ilion, N. Y. 

Mr. ISIatthews. Were jou ever a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Where? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Los Angeles. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you hold any positions in the Communist 
Party or its subsidiary organizations? 

Mr. Honeycombe, I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please enumerate them? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I was the field organizer for the southern Cali- 
fornia district of the Friends of the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Matthews. When was that? 

Mr. Honeycombe. 1933 to 1936. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state briefly for the record at this 
time what you found to be the facts with reference to the Communist 
Party's control of the Friends of the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. They were the creators of the organization for 
the purpose of the recognition of the U. S. S. R. and the Unitecl 
States Government recognition of the U. S. S. R. Government in 1933. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Were the activities of the Friends of the Soviet 
Union in general under the control of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. They were. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive instructions or orders to engage 
in the work of the Friends of the Soviet Union from the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you, while you were organizing for the 
Friends of the Soviet Union, receive directives from time to time 
with reference to the way you should carry out the work of the 
Friends of the Soviet Union from the Communist Party? 

Mr. HoN-EYCoitfBE. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you give some of the specific details that in- 
dicate that? 

Mr. Honeycombe. The furthering of the propaganda bv motion 
pictures and the lecture platform about the development of the social- 
ist economy form of government, how it functions; the difference 
between the autocracy of the Czars against the new democratic form 
of the Soviets, the workers and peasants and soldiers deputies. 



7738 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a Commimist Party fraction working or 
functioning in the Friends of the Soviet Union? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Controlled the Friends of the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Matthews, Will yon please state as briefly as possible how a 
Communist Party fraction operates in such an organization as the 
Friends of the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Honetcombe. They are called upon for a meeting with the 
political bureau of the general section of which the organization 
happens to be located. They receive the directives from the com- 
mittee in New York, which in turn receives their instructions from 
the Communist International at Moscow. They are applied to the 
local conditions and sections and activities with respect to fraternal 
organizations, labor organizations, democratic groups generally and 
an infiltration of the democratic processes of those groups. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Honeycombe, when did you volunteer 
ior enlistment in the Loyalist Army in Spain ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. 1937, in August. 

The Chairman. Wouldn't it be well to find out more of his activi- 
ties in California for the Communist Party before you lead up to 
that? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, my thought in that respect was 
that Mr. Honeycombe had a great deal of experience in the Com- 
munist Party work in California and that would take a good deal 
of time to develop that testimony, and since he has first-hand knowl- 
edge with reference to this Spanish recruiting situation, that we 
would bring that out at this time. 

The Chairman. Well, bring that out at a later date but you will 
have to keep him here for us to hear it. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please state the facts with reference 
to your enlistment in the Loyalist Army in Spain, Mr. Honeycombe? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I enlisted in tlie city of Los Angeles on August 
5, 1937. I arrived in La Havre. France, on August 21; was trans- 
ported over the Pyrenees Mountains — on foot rather, we hiked over — 
and was received at Figueras on September 1, 1937. 

There we entrained 3 days later to Albacete, the international base 
training headquarters and receiving depot. 

Mr. Matthews. Before you go further into Spain, I would like 
to have you go back to the period before you sailed. Did you travel 
on an American passport? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that passport issued in your own name ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. Were there any notations on your passport with 
reference to your entry into Spain? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Nothing other than it was marked "Not valid 
for travel in Spain." 

Mr. Matthews. Were American passports at that time generally 
so marked? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I understood they were. 

Mr. Matthews. But yours was marked "Not valid for travel in 
Spain"? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you obtain your passport? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7739 

Mr. HoxEYCOMBE. San Francisco. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the party, tlie Communist Party, have any- 
thinor to do ^Yith your enlistment? 

Mr. HoNETcoMBE. They had everything to do with it — all arrange- 
ments. 

Mr. INIati'Hews. Will you please state the facts, how were you 
approached or by whom? 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. By former members of the Communist Party 
whom I had known and associated witli for years. 

Mr. MvTTHEws. And what was tlie idea that was in their minds 
about your enlistment? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Bccause they felt because of my previous World 
AYar service, both in the Army and Navy, that I should go over and 
do my part. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Was enlistment in the State of California in the 
hands of conmiunists or the Communist Party to your first-hand 
knowledge ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It was, 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe more in detail the method 
as to how you were enlisted, what was said to you, and so on? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I was approached by 

Mr. IMatthews. And what you were told about your passport, if 
anything. 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well, I was instructed to make the formal ap- 
plication for passport in the Pacific Electric Building at Sixth 
and Main in Los Angeles, at the commissioner's office. 

I made out an affidavit to the effect that I was going over to 
England to my ancestral home for a 4 months' visit. These were 
cur instructions. 

Mr. Matthews. You were instructed to do that ? 

]\Ir. HoxEYCOMBE. That is right: not to reveal the intent or pur- 
pose of our trip. 

I so made out the application and swore to the affidavit. Three 
days later I received my passport in San Francisco and I reported 
back to the office at the recruiting bureau, operated by one John 
Light ner, under the alias of Mr. West, and received my further in- 
structions to report the following day with my ticket and transporta- 
tion, to New York where further arrangements would be made for 
my sailing. 

Mr. Matthe\vs. Now, was it a Communist Party member who 
actually signed you up for Spain? 

IVfr. HoxEYCOMBE. It Avas. 

■Mr. Matthews. TAHio was that Communist Party member? 
'Sir. HoxEYCOMBE. jNIr. Lightner, alias Mr. West. 
Mr. ^NrATTHEws. Do you know what his first name was ? 
Mr. HoxEYCOMBE, John, I believe. 
Mr. Matthews. John Lightner? 
INIr. Hox^eycombe. I am sure. 

jVfr. ]\rATTHEws. Alias West. You mean he was known as West in 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Hoxt:ycombe. That is correct, and in the recruiting bureau. 
Mr. JVIatthews. And in the recruiting bureau ? 
Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is right. 



7740 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Were you examined by a physician for service in 
Spain ? 

Mr. HoNETCOMBE. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. What physician examined you? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I don't know whether I can think of the name 
now. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Was it Dr. Leo Beegleman? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Beegleman, that is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you instructed by the Communist Party to 
go to Dr. Beegleman for this examination ? 

INIr. Honeycombe. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you given the money for your passport ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. By whom? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Mr. Lightner. 

Mr. Matthews. By Mr. Lightner, the member of the Communist 
Party whose alias was West? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any funds or tickets for travel 
to New York. 

Mr. HoNEYcoiMBE. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. From whom and in what sum ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. The same man, j\Ir. Lightner, in the amount of 
$37.50 plus $5 to eat on. 

Mr. Matthews. And what were the instructions with reference to 
your reporting in New York? 

Mr. Honeycombe. To report to a certain address in New York 
City on Forty-first. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the exact address on Forty-first 
Street? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I think it is 371 West Forty-first — I am quite 
sure. 

Mr. Matthews. Whom did you meet there ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. The disbursing agent for the party who ar- 
ranged all the sailings. 

Mr. Matthews. What party was that? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Communist Party? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you find that these headquarters to which you 
were instructed to report in California were under the direction of 
members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In New York? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. VooRHis. What was that question? 

Mr. Matthews. Did he find when he arrived in New York that 
the headquarters to which he was instructed to report were under 
the control of the Communist Party and his answer was "Yes." 

How did you know that, Mr. Honeycombe ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. By the form of instructions I received — the re- 
sponsibilities I had for the transportation of three other men with me. 

Mr. Matthews. You were placed in charge, were you ? 



UN-ARIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7741 

Mr. HoNETcoMBE. That is correct, from Los Angelos to Xew York. 

Mr. JNIaitiiews. Now, when you k'ft for France what instructions 
(Ijd you i-eceive from these members of the Communist Party in 
New York? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Practically identical instructions that I received 
in Los An*Teles, going to New York with the address to report to 
in Paris, and how to proceed between New York and Paris, both 
on board ship and upon arrival in Havre and to the committee at 
Paris. 

Mr. Matthews. How many men went over in your charge? 

jNIr. Honeycombe. There were only four under my charge and five 
under another man. There were two of us in charge of that 
contingent. 

Mr. Matthews. You sailed on the same ship? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Steamship Champlain. 

Mr. Matthews. The date of your sailing? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I belicve August 14, on Saturday, 12 o'clock 
noon. 

Mr. Matthews. 1937? 

]SIr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And you arrived in 

Mr, HoNEYCoaiBE. Havre, France, on the 21st of that month. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you met at Le Havre ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. No, I was not. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you met in Paris? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is right, in Paris. 

Mr. Matthews. By whom? 

Mr. Honeycx)mbe. By a member of the Control Commission of the 
Syndicate of the Union. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the Control Commission of the Syndicate 
of the Union? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well, that is the party fraction in charge of the 
receiving bureau in Paris. It has the location of their office in the 
Union Syndicate. 

Mr. Matthews. Are they the headquarters to which you reported? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the address in Paris ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Offhand I cannot recall. It is a very famous 
spot in Paris, It is the location of all the labor unions. It is a 
syndicate of unions. 

Mr. Matthews. Syndicate of unions roughly equivalent to the 
American Federation of Labor? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Correct. 

Mr. Matthews. For the French trade unions? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Corrcct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what instructions did you receive at these 
headquarters on your arrival in Paris? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. To stand by for further orders, which was a 3- 
day period. On the third day, at night, I was approached with 
tickets to board a train with the men and proceed to Narbonne in 
southern France. 

Mr. Matthem's. And how many of you proceeded to go ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. The same contingent, nine. 



7742 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Nine of you? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you give in detail what you started to 
give a moment ago about your arrival at the Pyrenees and how you 
were conducted across the border? 

Mr. Honetcombe, We were detrained in Beziers in southern France 
to rest for a period of a day and night. At 12 o'clock in the evening 
on the second day we received a committee member with instructions 
to proceed to the foothills of the Pyrenees Mountains, I believe below 
Carcassonne, and from there we were to meet a French guide, Com- 
munist guide to lead us over the Pyrenees Mountains. 

Mr. Matthews. And what did you do with your American pass- 
ports or what was done with your American passports when you 
crossed into Spain. 

Mr. Honeygombe. We surrendered those upon arrival at Albacete 
upon filling out the questionnaire as to our social history and political 
background. 

Mr. Matthews. To whom did you surrender your American pass- 
ports ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I believe an adjutant or aide to one Bill Law- 
rence who at that time was the commissar — receiving man in charge. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Bill Lawrence an American ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I understand he is. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there any agi'eement with you as to receiving 
your passports back? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Well, the understanding and the agreement, both 
prior to sailing and at the point of enlistment in Los Angeles, was 
that after 6-months' service in Spain every man was entitled to auto- 
matic repatriation. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you so promised ? 

Mr, Honeycombe. I was so informed on both ends. 

Mr. Matthews. You know from others that they received like 
promises ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. That they would be repatriated after the end of 
6 months if they desired to return to the United States ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. The man to whom you surrendered your American 
passport was not an American official of any kind, was he? 

Mr. Honeycombe. No; he was not. You mean by that a member 
of the American Government? 

Mr, Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Honeycombe. No ; I am sure he was not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he have any authority from any governmental 
agency to receive your passport? 

Mr. Honeycombe. He did not. 

Mr. Matthews. But you were required to surrender your passport, 
is that correct? 

Mr, Honeycombe. I would use the word "compelled" because I 
wished to retain mine against any eventuality. 

Mr. Matthews. Were the Americans traveling with you likewise 
compelled to surrender their passports? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It was advisable under the circumstances, al- 
though we didn't overenjoy the idea of surrendering the only 
method of exodus. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7743 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did you learn from other members of the fighting 
units in Spain who were Americans that they were also compelled 
to surrender their passports ? 

Mr. HoNETCOMBE. Some of the men were very careful and shrewd 
in that they claimed they lost theirs in the hike over the mountains 
and retained them. That was quite an excellent idea. 

Mr. Matthews. But it was the rule that passports had to be 
surrendered. 

^Ir. HoxETCOMBE. That is right. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to find out a little more in detail about 
what happened. How were you compelled to give up the passports? 
"What was told you? 

Mr. HoNETCOMBE. Well, for example, Mr. Voorhis, supposing you 
were the receiving committee at Albacete and I was the recruit ar- 
riving at the base. Your job was to surrender or rather have me 
surrender any means of identification and establish my qualifications 
as to your requirements, whether I am a fit man to be applied or 
designated for any certain task in Spain according to my history and 
my political background and my political activities in America. You 
were the judge of that and by surrendering my passport automati- 
cally I was under your control. 

That was my only means of escape or exodus in the event of any 
eventuality, and you had complete control over me when I surren- 
dered the passport. It was obligatory on my part to do so — com- 
pulsory. 

Mr. VooRHis. Suppose you said, "I don't want to give it up"? 

Mr. HoNEYCOzsiBE. I did not advise that, and I thought better of 
it under the circumstances. One doesn't do that when he is sur- 
rounded by arms in the time of war. 

Mr. Matthews. How soon did you go to the front, Mr. Honey- 
combe, after you arrived in Spain? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I was in Albacete about 8 hours when I was 
transferred into a uniform from civilian clothing, and proceeded 

Mr. Matthews. Before you go on to that, were you met by Spanish 
Communists anywhere? 

Mr. HoxEYcoMBE. Over the Pyrenees we were met by a Spanish 
Communist guard and the border guard, of course, in uniform. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there any welcoming committee anywhere 
along this route? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. In the first village we were received and received 
rations. In going over the mountains most of us failed to carry water. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Were you expected ? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. Yes; it was all arranged for on arrival. The 
camions were there. We had our lunch, or rather breakfast or lunch, 
between 10:30 in the morning when we arrived and left France 
that night. It is a 13-hour hike over the mountains. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go direct to the front? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. I went to Fort Figueras and from there — we 
were detained some 2 or 3 days to await transportation to Albacete. 
They had ditficulties in arranging the transportation of troops owing 
to the extreme demand on transportation service. And following 
my change into uniform I proceeded to the American base at Quin- 
tanas, the training base, and I was there about 7 days, and because 



7744 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

of my previous military service, I had charge of drilling a section 
and was recommended to go to Pozo Rubio, the officer's school, and 
I was sent to Pozo Rubio, wdiere for 3 weeks I was under Russian 
instructors in the art of mapping, scouting, and observing. 

Mr. Matthews. You had a Russian instructor ? 

Mr. HoNETCXJMBE. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a soldier from the red army ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct; Colonel Melinkoff. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the army from the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his name ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Colonel Melinkoff. 

Mr. Matthews. And how long did that instruction under Colonel 
Melinkoff last? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Twenty-one days — 3 weeks, day and night. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the usual period of training before going 
to the front? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Well, at that time because of the urgency and 
necessity for replacing some men following some action, that was 
responsible for the rush. 

Mr. Matthews. Were there any others, to your knoAvledge, than 
you who received a shorter period of training before going to the 
front? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Some of the men, I understand, never handled 
a rifle until they were put into the front lines at the last. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean they were put there without military 
experience? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And were taken to Spain and put in the front lines 
with less than 21 days of training? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I would say in less than 2 days. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you give for the record the exact record of 
military service which you have had in the United States? 

Mr. Honeycombe. United States Navy, between May 8, 1917, and 
June 21, 1921; the United States Army, Eleventh United States 
Cavalry, Presidio of Monterey, 1922 to 1925, and my service in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you find in Spain that the Communist Inter- 
national had been able to recruit men from all parts of the world 
for this war in Spain? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Practically all parts of the world. I think I 
even saw one or two Chinese, if I recall correctly, in the medical 
units. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please describe how and where you 
went to the front after your period of training? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I left Pozo Rubio, without trying to give an 
exact date from memory, on September 21. I was transported with 
a contingent of some 550 men under the command of Captain Davis 
and Lieutenant Bill Titus to the front at Quinto. That was some 
four and a half days and nights riding trains. When we arrived 
at the front at Quinto we were quartered at the demolished cemetery 
upon a rise near the church on the hill at Quinto. 

There we prepared for front-line duty and entered the trenches 
at Fuentes De Ebro on the evening of October 11. 

Mr. Matthews. How long did you have front-line service? 



UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7745 

Mr. HoxEYCOMBE. Altooether from tlie time of my arrival, from 
October 11 until Aj^ril 2, when I crossed the Ebro after the retreat 
at Gandesa. 

Mv. JSIatthews. Now, during this period of your service in Spain, 
did you ever see Earl Browder? 

]Mr. HoNETCOMBE. I did once. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you see Earl Browder in Spain? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. About 26 kilometers east of Teruel, after we 
were withdrawn from Teruel. That would be approximately Feb- 
ruary 27 or 28, 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. And what were the circumstances under which 
you saw Browder on February 27 or 28 ? That would be 1938 ? 

Mr, HoNEYCOMBE. We were being evacuated, presumably, to Valen- 
cia for a rest. The train broke down some 8 kilometers west of 
Mora station and the men were ordered to quit the train and take 
to the hillsides, owing to the airplanes overhead in close proximity 
to Teruel, and Earl Browder addressed the men at that time. 

Mr. Matthew^s. What was the content of Earl Browder's speech 
to the men on this occasion? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. The usual pep talk and propaganda about the 
attitude of America and the continued pressure of the noninterven- 
tion committee and the effect of the immense victory — the taking 
of Teruel by the all-Spanish brigade and the general encourage- 
ment to attempt to lift the morale of the men, but he was not over- 
well received by some of the men. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Did Browder specifically take up the question of 
the length of service of the Americans in Spain? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. He did. He pointed out it would be necessary 
to maintain us there until the end of the war. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he in effect state that the promise of repatri- 
ation after 6 months was abrogated? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well, not in so many words. Inferentially he 
gave us to understand that. 

Mr. Matthews. That no one would be repatriated until the end of 
the war? 

Mr. HoNEYCoiviBE. Words to that effect, along that line — we were 
expected to stay there until the end of the war as real anti-Facists. 

Mr. Thomas. May I interrupt there ? He told you that you people 
should stay there until the end of the war but he came home shortly 
after that, didn't he? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. And how ! And many of the men would like 
to have joined him, I assure you. 

Mr. Matthews. How was his announcement received by the men? 

ISIr. Hoxeycombe. Not overly well received by some men that had 
been over there a year and had already started for home and were sent 
back to the lines. Many of the men were denied permission to return 
■who had well served their period of time. Many of them in very 
poor health and run-down condition. 

]Mr. Matthews. Did you observe any actual discontent ? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Among the men at that time ? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Because of the speech of Mr. Browder? 



7746 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. HoNETCOMBE. The reactions were not very complimentary to 
his propaganda talk over there. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the officers take any special precautions fol- 
lowing the speech for self -protection ? 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. To a degree, they did. Some of them required 
Spanish guards to go around with them, armed, at all times. 

Mr. Matfhews. Did you hear a good number of men who were 
entitled to repatriation because they had served 6 months, express 
themselves as determined to go? 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. I did, in undertones generally, of course. They 
did not do it openly because they would be marked men. 

Mr. Mattthews. You spoke of 550 men going up to the front, I 
believe, a moment ago. Were they all Americans? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I would say practically all Americans in our 
battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there an Abraham Lincoln brigade in Spain? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That was the nom de giierre, I would call it here 
in America, for the purpose of exploiting the sympathetic people to 
the Spanish cause and that of the men and relatives of the men serv- 
ing over there for the purpose of raising funds. It was simply a con- 
venient slogan adopted to shake the people down here. 

Mr. Matthews. Do y6u mean to say there was not in Spain any 
unit known as the Lincoln brigade? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It was known as the Lincoln-Washington Bat- 
talion, the Fifteenth International Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you make any efforts to get repatriated after 
this speech of Browder? 

Mr. Honeycombe. No. Sometime later I wrote a letter out to the 
Tarigade commander requesting informally that I be repatriated and 
stating my reasons, and I turned that over to John Gates when he 
joined us southeast of Belchite prior to the action there on March 9. 
This letter was addressed to the brigade commander, and we were 
under the command of Capt. Dave Kees who was killed at Albacete. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the morale of the American boys diminished 
or increased as a result of Earl Browder's speech ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. To a degree. You see I would estimate 40 per- 
cent of those men were non-Communists that went to Spain — at least 
that much, who knew little or nothing about the mechanization or 
mechanics of the Communist Party or its theories or policies, who 
"had by one means or another come in contact with one or another 
group affiliated and became in sympathy with the cause by the in- 
tense propaganda disseminated by them. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please go ahead with the descrip- 
tion of your own efforts at repatriation? What was the reaction to 
jou as a result of your efforts to be repatriated ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Well, frankly, at that time I could not say, but 
following the Belchite retreat there is a chain of events there that 
must be explained to answer your question correctly. 

The following morning about 2 : 30 we moved up into the lines, 
presumably as was what to be our front line held on the previous day 
hy the Sixth Spanish Brigade. It was occupied by the Facists that 
evening. Prior to our moving up, and we were ordered into action 
that night at midnight and moved up nt 3 o'clock, and the hike was 
about 71/2 kilometers, and there is a monastery that w^as known as the 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7747 

second-line ridge — a highway going out toward Teruel, north. We 
were ordered to proceed, and about daylight we were caught between 
the presumable front and second lines, which were no longer the front 
lines but the Fascist lines. We were caught in no man's land some 
four or five hundred meters beyond what was our front-line trenches.. 
due to the wrong orders. So we retreated back to what had been 
designated properly as the first line which was now the monastery 
line and we held that until 2 o'clock in the afternoon when we were 
forced to retreat under terrific fire and that retreat continued back 
to practically into Caspe and eventually into Cambrils. I began 
March 9, the general retreat, that was practically a rout, on March 9,. 
back to Hijar and Castellote, where they tried to reorganize us but 
were constantly driven back to Alcahiz and finally to Caspe and into 
the Gandesa Valley, day and night. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what happened to you as a result of your 
efforts to get repatriation? 

Mr. HoxEYcoMBE. I was one of the last men to leave the monastery 
ridge with the following men : Milton Sills, the commissar — the Com- 
munist commissar, I should say — and our young battalion clerk, I 
can't think of his name now, Vernon Selby, Romaro Bloom ( ? ) , tht> 
commissar of the second company; one more man that I can't recall — 
a new man. We carried Commander Parker's body — Commander 
Rees' body — about 450 meters behind the monastery and discovered 
the man was dead and we let him go under terrific fire and each 
man to himself to make tlie retreat. 

Mr. jMatthews. Did you ever make a formal request for repatria- 
tion? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I did. I am coming to that point. Following 
our reorganization and meeting of the remnants of the battalion at 
Hijar, I requested permission to return to Barcelona. I had a very 
badly injured knee — swollen, and I could hardly walk — had to drag 
it — stitf, and Vernon Selby had a shrapnel wound in the shoulder, 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Vernon Selby, whose mother appeared ou 
the stand this morning? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It is. He requested permission to go to the 
base hospital in the rear and was granted permission by the brigade 
commissar attached to reorganize the renxnants of the battalion. That 
was on the dawn of March 12, just before they crossed the creek at 
Hijar. 

I went back to Barcelona for the purpose of verifying the story 
that we would not be entitled to repatriation and were expected ta 
remain there for the duration of the war, and went to Lerida. Selby 
Jiad attention at the hospital here and I had my knee dressed and T 
continued on to Barcelona. 

When I arrived in Barcelona I proceeded to the Ministry of War 
to ask the following question : Was the International Brigade respon- 
sible to the Spanish Government or the Spanish Army, and the an- 
swer was: "No; you have complete autonomy and you are under the' 
control committee of the International Connnunis^ Party." That is 
the Tliird International under the direction of Andre Marty. 

Andre Marty is the former French Deputy. He was in charge- 
of the French contingent and a representative of the Secretariat of 
the Third International at Moscow. In fact, a member of it, Robert 
Minor, was in charge of the American contingent of the International 



7748 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Brio;ade and the Lincoln- Washinfrton Battalion of that brigade, the 
Fifteenth. Commander — Captain Kay's brigade at Barcelona, his 
headquarters there, was assisted by Lieutenant Colni. These were 
aides of Mr. Minor and representatives of the secretariat. Andre 
Marty, at Barcelona. 

I asked the Minister of War if it was true that we were expected 
and demanded by the Spanish Government to remain until the end of 
hostilities, and he said "No."' He said: "That is entirely up to the 
brigade command for the International connnand or their representa- 
tive ; that repatriation would be passed upon by them." 

Mr. Matthews. Was this the War Minister of the Spanish Loyalist 
Government that you asked the question of ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMUE. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And he said the Spanish Loyalist Government did 
not have authority over the International Brigade ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is correct; only insofar as it did not con- 
flict with the military orders of the Army corps or divisions we hap- 
pened to be in line with. 

Then I asked why it was that these men who had served their pe- 
riod — I explained of course the promises made and many men were 
thoroughly demoralized and sick and disgusted and they wanted to 
go home, and why they were not allowing them. He said : "Frankly," 
lie said : "I would like to see you all get out of here," He said : "You 
have caused us more trouble than good because they help the Inter- 
national Brigades, largely, with the Commmiist divisions of Spain 
had continued the war. The Spanish people were fed up with it, in- 
cluding the Government, and the sooner it ended the better and they 
held us largely responsible for its continuation." 

Events later proved that statement to be true. Catalonia did not 
raise a shot when they walked in on them. So I reported to head- 
quarters at Barcelona and was immediately placed under arrest with 
Mr. Selby and we were kept under arrest for 10 days and returned 
to the front under guard on March 25. We were taken back to Batea. 

Mr. Matthews. What charges were formally placed against you 
when you were arrested? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. No charges whatsoever. Only threats were 
made that I would be taken to General Gomez and thrown into 
the dungeon, so I demanded to be taken before General Gomez and 
demanded a military trial of my own comrades — the men I served 
with, if there were any charges against me. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Selby was arrested with you at that time? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And you were taken under guard to the front? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Somc 8 or 10 days later. We were arrested on 
March 17 and returned to the front lines at Batea, some 22 of us, on 
March 25, exactly, about 5 days before the Gandesa action. We went 
into the lines at dawn on April 1. 

Mr, Matthews. You liiean there were 22 of you under arrest who 
went into action? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Under guard; prisoners without arms. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you armed ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I was unarmed from the day I returned from 
Hi jar into Barcelona, 

Mr. Maithews. AVas Selby armed ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7749 

Mr. I loNEYCOMHE. He was also unarmed. 

Mr. Matthews. Unarmed? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMHE. He was also unarmed. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Were any of the 22 prisoners who were taken to 
the front allowed to have arms? 

INIr. HoNEYCOMBE. Tlicj were not. 

Mr. Matthews. In otlier words, under arrest the 22 of you were 
placed at the front ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMHE. That is correct. 

]\fr. Matihews. P^ntirely helpless to protect yourself as far as 
arms were concerned ? 

^Ir. HoNEYCOMBE. That is quite true. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether that occurred on any other 
occasions with respect to prisoners? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Well, I can't speak for the other battalions. 
Some of their officers were under arrest with me. I can give you the 
names of several of the men. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Honeycombe. Lieutenant Skinner of the all-Canadian Bat- 
talion, Lieutenant Anderson, Lt. Hank Basko — Basakowski, and a 
lieutenant of the brigade machine gunners. I can't think of his 
name offhand now. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, that will be all right for their names. 

Mr. Honeycombe. And Lawrence McCullough was placed incom- 
municado. He was under arrest there. Vernon Selby was released 
on the night, I think, of March 29. or the 30th, the last day before he 
went into that action, presumably to go back to the hospital for atten- 
tion, but I later heard he was sent up in the lines with the entire 
battalion. No one was allowed to go back for rest or hospitalization 
because of the urgency of the situation. 

Mr. ]\1atthews. Now, Mr. Honeycombe, how did you and your 
associates who were under arrest understand this action of the 
authorities in sending you up to the front unarmed ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Well, I would like to go into detail on that be- 
cause there is a man here who will testify later, whom at the time I 
warned of the very thing that is happening today would happen. 

While a prisoner under arrest I went to our battalion headquarters 
and talked to Fred Keller, who is the commissar for the battalion 

Mr. Matthews. What do you mean by "commissar"? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That means he was in complete command of the 
political control of the battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean he was the political commissar? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Representing what political party? 
Mr. Honeyco:mbe. AVell, i-epresenting the Communist International. 
Mr. M\tthews. Did each of the units or battalions of the Interna- 
tional Brigade have political commissars? 

Mr. Honeycombe. They did. Each company, each battalion, each 
brigade, and each division. 

Mr. Matihews. A commissar for each? 
Mr. Honeycombe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you state what their functions were? 
Mr. Honeycombe. Well, they were varied. First of all to ascer- 
tain the proper transports and supplies in time of action; see that 



7750 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

food and all organized facilities and auxiliary units of the battalions 
and brigades are functioning properly, and to assist in maintaining 
the morale of the men, encourage them, both by example and by 
understanding the abilities to explain situations or apologies as the 
case may demand for mistakes, and generally to be a pet boy — 
propagandizing, having the same authority and responsibility with 
the commander of the battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have meetings at which the political 
commissars made speeches? 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. Yes ; several. 

Mr. Matthews. And Fred Keller was the political commissar at 
the time that you are now speaking when you went to the front 
under arrest? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is right; yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Just one minute. Suppose there was a conflict be- 
tween the military commander and the commissar, if there ever was 
one, whose word would be final? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well, now, that would depend, Mr. Voorhis, 
upon the situation, but usually the commissar had the supreme 
authority. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have reason to know — at this point I 
would like to ask this question, Mr. Honeycombe, whether or not 
Robert Minor was the head political commissar for the American 
Communist Party attached to the International Brigade? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. He was the chief. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Minor's word final? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. In all matters respecting the American boys who- 
were fighting? 

Mr. Honeycombe. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. You are sure of that? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I am positive of that. 

Mr. Matthews. And Robert Minor is an American? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I don't know. You could not prove it by me. 

Mr. ]VL\tthews. Do you know whether or not Robert Minor is a 
leading member of the Communist Party of the United States ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I know lie is. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, now, will you go on with what happened 
when you were taken up to the front under arrest with Fred Keller 
acting as your commissar? 

Mr. Honeycombe. We were taken up to the front at Batea. We 
were kept out in an olive grove in the rain for 2 days and nights 
under Spanish guard, improperly clothed, men ill, sick, and wounded ; 
denied water to drink, denied fire or cover, denied food, and reduced 
to rations within a day's period of only one ladle of lentil soup, very 
watery, I assure you, a little mule-meat flavor and two small pieces 
of bread. While under arrest the most terrific sadistic pressure was 
brought to bear on those prisoners. I have witnessed some crucial 
and cruel conditions under whicli men have sometimes had to exist. 

But I charged Fred Keller the day would come when I would 
reveal to the world just what type of men and what form of sadism 
would be practiced upon men who went over there, presumably as 
previously explained by the past witness who believed in ideals of 
the highest type. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 775I 

^Ir, ISIatthews. What happened at the end of this period at the 
front when you were under arrest^ 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. The Fascist assault on the morning of April 1 
was so terrific that my Spanish guards were removed or rather they 
evaporated, I should say. and some of my comrades of the McKenzie 
Battalion, men whom t had knoAvn in other activities, were placed 
over us as guards and they in turn were forced to return. So the 
former adjutant and myself found ourselves alone in a sort of a 
no-man's land between the brigade and what was left of the rem- 
nants of the battalion, 

"We were sent up under their control by the brigade guards, the 
all-Spanish guards which were taken out, and about 2 o'clock in 
the afternoon — no, I would say earlier than that, I would say high 
noon after a terrific artillery and heavy arms bombardment and 
strafing and bombing and grenading. we managed to crawl back to 
the brigade pill box where we were prisoners. 

"We took cover as much as possible. Two of the men returning 
gave us each three grenades which we stuck in our belts for self- 
defense in case we didn't get out. These men, of course, knew we 
were prisoners and unjustly treated under the circumstances. 

We had the sympatliy of the men. 

I think my chief grievance or, rather, the chief grievance of the 
command against me was that I spoke very frankly and freely to 
the men and I sympathized with their condition and I felt they were 
entitled to repatriation and I made that demand in Barcelona and 
this was why I was a marked man largely. I know of no other 
reason. 

Certainly my military conduct was anything else but discom- 
mendable. 

Mr. Matthews. What do you know about the fate of Vernon 
Selby? 

^Ir, HoNETCOMBE. What I know of Vernon Selby would be simply 
inferential hearsay evidence. All I know is what Lawrence McCul- 
lough told me. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio was he? 

Mr. Honeyco:mbe. An observer on the staff with me. 

Mr. Matthews. What did IMcCullough tell you as to what hap- 
pened to Vernon Selby? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. He told me that he had heard from one Keed — 
Bill Reed, a guard at Barcelona, that Vernon Selby was taken out 
of his cell at night and executed or, rather, killed. I would say 
murdered is the proper term, by these sadists while a prisoner under 
their control in Barcelona. 

Mr. Matthews. In what prison? 

Mr, HoNEYCOMBE, Castlc de Fells was the understanding I 
received. 

Mr. Matthews. Castle de Fells. Who was in charge of the prison 
at Castle de Fells at that time? 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. I dou't know, no. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything of the fate of Albert Wal- 
lach, wliose father appeared here this morning? 

]Mr, HoNEYcoMBE. No, I do not know of his fate, but I know of him. 

Mr, Matthews. Do you know of other cases where men were exe- 
cuted or as you have termed it, murdered by the men in charge? 

94931— 40— -vol. 13 6 



7752 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. HoNETCOMBE. It would be very difficult because those things 
were hushed up and generally the men in fear for their own lives 
and in self-preservation would try to ignore any incidents which 
might involve them and put them in the same jeopardy. 

The Chairman. I just want to make this statement, that Mrs. 
Selby is not required to stay here unless she wants to do so. She is 
not a witness under the committee's jurisdiction any longer. You 
are excused. 

Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Selby says she prefers to stay. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr, Matthews. Now, how did you get out of Spain from the time 
that you found yourself in this no man's land between the Fascists' 
lines and what was left of the retreating Loyalists' forces ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. As I previously pointed out, upon my arriving 
in Spain, I was slightly skeptical of the intents and purposes of the 
surrendering or the compulsion to surrender our passports. 

I have learned in my struggles and experiences in life to always be 
on the safe side and prepare for the unexpected. So I maintained 
this document. 

Mr. Matthews. This is your seaman's passport? 

Mr, HoNETCOMBE. That is correct. I used that as a visa and ran 
the gantlet of the guard and immigration and came out on a train. 
I ran the blockade. 

Mr. Matthews. Was some one else with you ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. No one ; I came alone. 

Mr. Matthews, You escaped alone ? 

Mr, Honeycombe. That is right. 

IVIr. Matthews. How long did it take you to get from the spot 
where you were at the time the rout occurred and the French 
frontier ? 

INIr. Honeycombe. Five days and nights. 

Mr. Matthews. Five days and nights. And when you got to the 
border you used your seaman's transport? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews, To enter France? 

Mr, Honeycombe. That is right. It is stamped where I came out 
and the date itself all on there by immigration officials, 

Mr, Matthews. Yes; the French visa. 

Mr. Honeycombe. Spanish visa. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. It is the 8th of April 1938. 

Mr. Honeycombe. Yes; that is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what difficulties did you encounter after you 
reached France, if any, from the Communist Party of France ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I found no difficulties until I arrived in Havre. 

Mr. Matthews. And what was that difficulty ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. But other men who followed me out, some 12 
or 13 others who needed medical attention, food, and care, why, they 
were denied by the control conmiittee in Paris after they had sent a 
delegate, a spokesman for them to the Internationale Brigade office 
in Paris to representatives of the Lincoln Brigade office, demanding 
attention and care and transport for the men that came over the hill 
who were forced out in the big retreat. 

Mr. Matthews. Was any attempt made on your life while you were 
in France after your escape from Spain ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7753 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. There was j\n attempt to beat me up in Havre but 
they chose the wronir man. I was coming out of a cafe one nijjht in 
Havre and I was beint; accompanied by Hank Bosco, a big Pole, six 
footer, and we usually went tooether for self protection as we knew 
what to ex])ect sometimes in thin<;s like this, and some other man was 
badl}^ beaten uj) and practically at the point of death, you mijjht say. 
He was sent to the hospital in France and recovered some 3 months 
later — a terrific beatin^r- 

]Mr. Matthews. Were any of your fellow soldiers stranded in 
France ? 

Mr. HoxEYcx>MBE. Many of them were until I released the news of 
the actual conditions over there and demanded that 

Mr. Maithews. Did you <^ive out a release of this story? 

Mr. HoxEYCOMBE. I did. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Some parts of it from France ? 

Mr. HoxEYco]MBE. I did when I came over to France. 

]Mr. ^Taithews. Were there any efforts made to prevent your re- 
turning to the United States aboard ship^ 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. There was. 

Mr. Matthews. Will vou please state the facts with reference to 
that? 

Mr. Honeycombe. The American consul had arranged for my trans- 
portation on the steamship M anhattan but it happened that the dele- 
gate of the steamship Manhatfaii^ who was later killed, a Communist 
Party fraction meml^er. obviously received instructions to call the 
men off the ship on strike if they attempted to carry me. In other 
words, I was boycotted. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you eventually return to the United 
States? 

Mr. Hoxeycombe. Through the efforts of the United States consul 
on a United States ^Maritime ship. An able-bodied seaman took sick 
in Havre and I i-eplaced him. being a seaman, and I worked back. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Matthews, I think it is advisable to develop more 
of the actions in regard to the steamship Manhattan.. I would like 
to know whether the strike actually took place; whether the officials 
on the steamship Manhattan told Mr. Honeycombe that he could not 
sail on that ship, and whatever else took place in regard to it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Honeycombe, will you give the committee the 
facts? 

Mr. Hoxeycombp:. Yes. sir: I will answer the gentleman. The 
consul took me over to the first officer but the word obviously got 
to the first officer from the delegate of the ship that if he carried me 
he would call the men off in protest, so he told the consul in order 
to avoid the trouble he would rather not carry me. So then he took 
me to the commander 

Mr. Matthews. Who was the consul ? 

Mr. HoxEYci)>rr,E. Mr. Donaldson, vice consul. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you recall the name of the first officer of the ship? 

Mr. HoXEYtoMFiE. I can't do that. 

Mr. Thomas. You are sure he was the first officer? 

Mr. HoxEYc():\ir.i:. I am positive of that, first mate. And the cap- 
tain, of course, llatly refused when he heard the story. 

Mr. Mai thews. Refused to carry you? 

^Ir. Hoxeycombe. 'Hiat is correct. 



7754 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES * 

Mr. Matthews. The captain of tlie Blanhattanf 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Are there any questions, INIr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. Well, I want to ask, Do you liave any information; 
that the Communist Party is now seekino- to recruit for service in 
Mexico ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well. I was down in Mexico some 4 Aveeks ago. 
I know there was a great deal of activity, but what they are doin<^ 
now on that point I am not qualified to say. 

The Chairman. Did you observe activity in Mexico while you were 
there ? 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. I did. 

The Chairman. With reference to the matter of preparing for i^ev- 
olution ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well, what little Spanish I speak I loiow there 
is something going in Mexico. That is obvious. I was in Chihuahua 
3 weeks ago. 

The Chairman. Did you see any Communist activity there? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. It would be very difficult for me to say w^hether 
I did because all 1 could go by was what I read in the papers and 
the little snatches of conversation I heard here and there between 
the various union people I happened to meet. 

The Chairman. Did you see any American Communists there ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. No ; I did not. 

The Chairman. I want to get this general idea. How long were 
you active in the Connnunist Party of California? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. FouT years. 

The Chairman. About what was the membership in California of 
the Communist Party during the time you were a member? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I think our peak membership was 5.600. That 
was in 1936. 

The Chairman. Did you keep records of the membership then ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. They have the complete records. Every section 
organizer or its secretary has complete records of all party members. 

The Chairman. And all dues paid? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That is right. 

The Chairman. Were you fairly well acquainted Avith many Com- 
munists in California? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Oh, yes; know practically all of them. 

The Chairman. Were they active in various organizations, unions, 
and other organizations? 

Mr. HoNEYcoiMBE. That is the roll of the Communist Party, to be 
active, to get control of all these organizations. 

Tlie Chairman. You know of your own knowledge that many 
Communists had strategic positions in other organizations in Cali- 
fornia ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I do. 

The Chairman. We will take that up later and develop that. 

Mr. Lynch. Mr. Honeycombe. approximately how many Ameri- 
cans were there in Spain engaged in military activities? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I can merely base my judgment on that on the 
amount of men killed or Avouncled or missing in action and the 
amount of replacements at each action. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7755 

Mr. Lynch. Hoay many would yon estimate as the full number of 
Americans who were there for military service? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. I woulcl estimate anywhere from five to six thou- 
sand as a minimum in all forms of service. I don't mean front line, 
but auxiliarv. and so on. 

Mr. Lynch. Huw many would you estimate actually served in 
the. fitrhting lines? 

Mr. Honkycombe. Well, the actual brigade strength was only 2,500. 

Mr. Lynch. How many Avould you estimate were either lost or 
killed or murdered? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Well, my best estimation would be based upon 
the various actions I was involved in. I think at Quinto the report 
was 3C4 killed and wounded and missing. That was prior to my 
first arrival in the lines. I went hi the lines following the Quinto 
action. At Fuentes De Ebro I understand they lost approximately 
L*40. At the l>ruel action, from frost bite, cold, siclmess, and so on, 
sporadic sniping, I imagine our losses were the least there of any 
place to my knowledge,! would estimate that about 105 wounded, 
sick, dead, and injurecl. and so no. 

At Seguro the action Avas our greatest — I think — no; I believe not 
Seguro. I don't believe our casualties ran much over 140, if that 
much, or loO. approximately. That was a dawn attack at Seguro. 
We had a fortified hill to take. And let me see, at Belchite, this is 
where we had our terrific losses. The actual count of the men left in 
the battalion, the Lincoln Battalion, to my knowledge, on. the morn- 
ing we assembled, was about 65 men out of 550. 

]Sfr. Lynch. In other words 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. That gives vou an estimate. 

]Mr. Lynch. You lost almost 500 there? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Dead, wounded, missing, or wounded. 

Mr. Lynch. That amounted to about 1,350 during the entire 
period — just that period, either lost, killed, or otherwise? 

Mr. HoNEYCOiMBE. Wouuded. missing, or otherwise. It is pretty 
difficult to determine. 

The Chairman. Mr. Hurley desires to ask a few questions. 

Mr. Hurley. Going back a little bit, Mr. Honeycombe, the volun- 
teers who traveled to France M'ith you, were they members of the 
Comnumist Party? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. All but three, six out of the nine. 

Mr. HiRLEY. Do you know whether or not the recruiting of those 
comrades was part of a pattern here in the United States and was 
not centered in any one f)articular city or any one 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. Do you mean was that the general rule? 

Mr. Hurley. Yes. 

Mr. Honeycombe. Yes; that was throughout the country. 

Mr. Hurley. Do you know whether or not they followed the same 
proceduie you did. that is with regard to securing passports? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Yes. 

Mr. HiRLEY. And also the medical examination? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Same thing. 

Mr. Hurlp:y. And after you arrived in Spain were you given a 
pep talk by anybody? I am not speaking of Browder now. 

Mr. Honeycombe. Yes; by Bill Lawrence. 

Mr. Hurley. And who is Bill Lawrence? 



7756 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. HoNEYcoMBE. He was the cominisar in charge of the base at 
Albacete. 

Mr. Hurley. Were you also spoken to by Gates ? 

Mr, HoNEYCOMBE. Yes. 

Mr. Hurley. And who is he ? 

Mr. HoNEYCOMBE. He was the commisar for the brigade at the last. 

Mr. Hurley. John Gates? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Jolni Gates. 

Mr. Hurley. And with regard to these pep meetings that were 
held, were yon required at the termination to sing the Communist 
song ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. International. 

Mr. Hurley. As I understand it the training conducted in Spain 
was in large part conducted under the auspices of officers of the Red 
Army, is tliat correct ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr, Hurley. After you returned to the United States you became 
aware of the fact that in the United States during the time that you 
were over there that there was an extensive campaign for the raising 
of money? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is right. 

Mr. Hurley. To su])port the Spanish Loyalist cause? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is correct. 

Mr. Hurley. Can you recite from your own personal experience 
what proportion of that money you comrades in Spain received? 

Mr. Honeycombe. I would estimate not over 20 percent and prob- 
ably much less. 

Mr. Hurley. Twenty percent or less ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is right. 

Mr. Hurley. And in your judgment where did the rest of that 
money go? 

Mr. Honeycombe. Propaganda and the building u]) of the party 
apparatus here and paying off the racketeering functionaries. 

Mr. Hurley. Then it is your judgment the Communist Party in 
the United States utilized this cause as a lucrative racket for the 
perpetration of their own policies in the United States ? 

Mr. Honeycombe. That is right, propaganda I think and spreading 
it and recruiting. 

Mr. Hurley. From your long experience in the Communist Party 
would you state that the Communist Party is the vanguard of the 
working class or just a political clique playing upon international 
emotions. 

Mr. Honeycombe. "Well. I have a new phrase for them. I would 
call them "political Capones," and a thousand times more vicious, 
parading under the guise of an ideal and appealing to the highest 
social and moral feelings of men to prostitute it for their own selfish 
ends. That is exactly my opinion of them. Where at least a gun- 
man will stick you up and he has an avowed purpose and intention 
and that is to rob you without any high sounding phrases of idealism 
and sophistries. 

Mr. Hurij:y. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. You will remain imder subpena until we can heai* 
you further in regard to California and the west coast. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7757 

Mr. HoxEYCOMBE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who is your next witness ? 

Mr. Matthews. The next Avitness is Fred Keller. 

The CiiAiijMAN. Come aronnd, Mr. Keller. Raise your rif^ht hand. 
Do you solennily swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

TESTIMONY OF FRED KELLER, COMMISSAR, ABRAHAM LINCOLN 

BATTALION 

Mr. Keller. I do. 

The Chairman. Have a seat, Mr. Keller. You are represented 
here by your attorney, Mr. Schwab ? Do I have your name correctly? 

Mr. Schwab. Schwab ; Irving Schwab, 551 "^Fifth Avenue, New 
York City. 

The Chairman. You are a regularly licensed practicing attorney? 

Mr. Schwab. Duly admitted to practice law in the courts of the 
State of Xew York and the Federal courts there. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. "Will you please give your name for the record? 

Mr. Keli^r. Fred Keller, 

Mr. ALatthews. AMiere were you born? 

Mr. Keller. Xew York City. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. Keller. June 4, 1914. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Keller. I was never a member of the Communist Party, and I 
am not now. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever used any other name than that of 
Fred Keller? 

Mr. Keller. I never have. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the Young Com- 
munist League? 

Mr. Keller. I was never a member of the Young Communist League. 

]\Ir. Matthews. AVhat was your employment before you went to 
Spain ? 

Mr. ICeller. I was an organizer for a union. 

Mr. Matthews. What union? 

Mr. Keller. Building Service Employees International Union, 
Local 32-B. 

Mr. Mattilews. Affiliated with 

The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder ? 

Mr. Keller. American Federation of Labor. 

The Chairman. You were an organizer for what union ? 

Mr. Keller. Building Service Employees International Union, 
Local 32-B. It is in New York City and affiliated with the American 
Federation of Labor. 

The Chairman. All right. 

]Mr. Matthews. What other positions did you hold before you went 
to Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. I can't say that I — in what respects? 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the only job you ever had? 

Mr. KJELLER. No, it isn't. 



7758 UN-AMERICAN PllOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. "Wliat other? 

Mr. Keller. I worked at a great many things before that. 

Mr. Mattheavs. What was your trade or profession ? 

Mr. Keller. At present I am a longshoreman. 

Mr. Matthews. And what other jobs liave you held, that is prior to 
your going to Spain ? 

]Mr. Keller. \Vell, I worked in the trade of the union in which I got 
to be an organizer. 

jMr. Matthews. How long did you hold that position as union organ- 
izer ? 

Mr. Keller. I would say approximately 6 months. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that innnediately prior to your sailing to 
Spain? 

JMr. Keller. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. What positions did you hold 

The Chairman. Just one second, Mr. jNIatthews. I want to make an 
announcement that the committee is sitting as a quorum; present are 
Mr. Dempsey of New Mexico, Mr. Voorhis of California, Mr. Mason 
of Illinois ; and the chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what positions did you hold in Spain? 

]\lr. Keller. I was a sergeant in a machine-gun company. I was a 
lieutenant in a machine-gun company. I was commissar of war of the 
Lincoln Battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. Commissar of what? 

Mr. Keller. Commissar of war. 

Mr. Matthews. You were commissar of war? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. 

JMr. Matthews. For the Lincoln Battalion? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. 

Mr. JMatthews. When did you go to Spain? 

Mv. Keller. I left New York on June 5, 1937. 

IMr. Matthp:ws. Did you travel on an American passport? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Issued in your own name? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it stamped "not valid for travel in Spain"? 

Mr. Keller. I don't believe it was. I never noticed it. 

Mr. Matihews. In your application for this passport did you state 
that you intended to go to Spain? 

Mr. Keller. No ; I didn't. I said I was traveling in Europe. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the exact spelling of the name under 
which vou got your passport? 

Mr. Keller. K-e-1-l-e-r. 

]\Tr. Matthews. And your first name? 

IMr. Keller. Fred, F-r-e-d. 

Mr. Matthews. And any initial ? 

Mr. Keller. P. 

Mr. IMatthews. Fred ? 

Mr. Keller. Paul. 

Mr. IMatthews. Fred P., or Fred Paul? 

Mr. Keiler. Well, I couldn't be positive, but my middle name is 
Paul and I used my exact name. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was it issued? 

Mr. Keller. New York City. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7759 

Mr. IMattiiews. "^^Hiat were the duties of the commissar of war 
for tlie Liiicohi Battalion, which position you say you held'^ 

Mr. IvELLEK. I will have to explain a little of the situation in 
Spain. 

Mr. Schwab. Don't answer a question unless he gives you an 
opportunity to state all the facts. 

Mr. Lynch. Just a minute. I submit counsel is not controlling the 
committee as to what the witness should answer or not answer. 

Mr. Schwab. I am advising my client. 

The Chairman. Do you want to confer with your client? 

Mr. Schwab. I merelv told him he should not answer the questions 

fully. 

The Chairman. Well, proceed. What was the question? 

^Ir. Matthews. The question was, What were the dutie> of the 
commisar of war, which position Mr. Keller has stated he held in 
Spain, as a commisar of Avar in the Lincoln Battalion. 

Mr. Keller. The popular-front government of S]>ain vras a gov- 
ernment composed of some 30 political parties. There was a rule 
at the beginning of the war that no officer was permitted to be a mem- 
ber of any political party. He had to resign his rank in any politi- 
cal party, if he held one before he took any position. In order that 
the orders of the government was carried out the duties as set down 
by the popular- front government, the office of commissar, commissar 
of war — in Spanish, the commissar de guerra, and we can say it 
literally translated is commissar of war — was established. 

The commissar of war had to do with coordinating the services of 
a battalion, see that a battalion was fed, ammunition arrived on 
time, and that the fronts were generally coordinated. 

It is a lengthy subject and I could speak at it to some great length. 

The Chairman. I would like to know in connection with this, was 
that a position or an office simply in this particular brigade? 

Mr. Keller. No. That was throughout the entire Spanish Repub- 
lican Army, This office existed in all units from sections up. 

The Chahiman, All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Had you had any previous military experience 
before going to Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I never had any military experience in my life. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you proceed to outline the duties of the com- 
missar of war? You said to coordinate the activities, to see that 
food arrived and so forth, and what else? 

Mr. Keller. To explain to the troops the latest developments 
that the government was doing, the activities of the government. 
You have to understand that Spain was a government that was 
formed after the Fascist government or Franco government deserted 
and it was a very fast, swift -moving scene, and im- job was to tell 
the troops the position of the government. It was a democratic 
army in which men, in which men expressed themselves to the gov- 
ernment and the men had a right to express themselves back through 
my particular office and I in turn relayed that to my superior and 
he could relay it up to the government. In this way the great 
democracy of Spain functioned. 

The Chairman. A political office as well as a militaiy office? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. It was military in a sense. 



7760 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. I mean you had both duties, both military duties 
and political duties? 

Mr. Keller. No; I didn't have any directly military duties. 

Mr. Matthews. Only political duties? 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir. My office was supposed to be one in which — 
it was an honor to arrive at such an office. 

Mr. VooRHis. How were you selected for that office, Mr. Keller? 

Mr. Keller. I was elected by the troops. 

The Chairman. What body of troops, a company or what? 

Mr. Keller. Whatever you represented. 

The Chairman. Wliat did you represent? 

Mr. Keller. In the end I represented the Lincoln Battalion. 
Therefore, I was elected — — 

The Chairman. You first started out as a commissar for a smaller 
unit? 

]Mr. Keller. No. I was sergeant at first of a machine-gun com- 
pany. 

The Chairman. When you became commissar you were commissar 
of the entire 

Mr. Keller. Battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. Were a majority of the members of the Lincoln 
Battalion members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Keller. That is not true. 

Mr. Mattheavs. You know that Mr. Browder has published in his 
book that 60 percent of the members of the Lincoln Battalion were 
members of the Communist Party, don't you? 

Mr. Keller. I don't know that. 

Mr. Matthews. And that he also testified before this committee 
that 60 percent of them were members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Keller. Can't be responsible for what Mr. Browder says. 

Mr. Matthews. At any rate you deny that as being a fact ; is that 
your testimony? 

Mr. Keller. It is difficult to say what the percentage were of the 
battalion at different times, but to give you an impression that the 
Lincoln Battalion was entirely communistic 

The Chairman. He asked you if a majority of them were Com- 
munists. That was the question. 

Mr. Kei.ler. No; I don't believe, to the best of my knowledge at 
any one time, and you have to remember that the number in our bat- 
talion changed over the 9 months in which I was in office, and at 
different times the percentage was probably different, but 60 percent 
to me, if I may express an opinion, seems to me not correct. 

Mr. Matthews. You would say Mr. Browder was wrong, in other 
words ? 

Mr. Keller. I don't know. I am not responsible. 

Mr. Matthews. Are j^ou willing to state that that is a wrong state- 
ment ? 

Mr. Keller. I don't know if Mr. Browder said it. 

Mr. Matthews. Never mind whether he said it or not. 

Mr. Schwab. May the record note the difference in treatment here 
of this witness and the previous witness. 

Mr. Matthews. Will the witness answer the question. 

The Chairman. Put it this way : Is the statement that 60 percent 
of those were Communists? Is that a correct statement regardless of 
who made it? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7761 

Mr, Keller. Let me say this, Mr. Dies, that I can never say what 
percentage there were at any one time — nobody was ever asked for 
their political afliliations and they were not forced to say and so I 
can't say any jxirticular number existed. 

Mr. Mason. AVoidd you say if yon did express an opinion as to the 
proportion of Connnnnists or non-Communists in the Lincoln Bri- 
gade, it would be just your opinion and an estimate because no defi- 
nite check had been made, is that the idea ? 

Mr. Keller. That is to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Keller, yon did say positively that a majority 
of the brigade were not Communists? 

Mr. Keller. I was anxious 

Mr. De]mpsey. That is your unqualified statement. If that is true 
then a majority — certainly 60 percent could not have been. 

Mr. Keller. I was just anxious that I would not be asked to 
make — make any — ask to make any particular figure or compare my 
figures with anvbodv else. 

Mr. Dempset. When you stated the majority were not Communists 
were yon stating your knowledge? 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge the majority 
of the Lincoln Battalion was never communistic. 

The Chairman. Xow, we have a subcommittee, designated by the 
chairman as being composed of Mr. Dempsey, Mr. Mason, and the 
chairman until further announcement, and we are now proceeding as 
a subconnnittee.- Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Keller, in Spain did you meet Robert 
Minor? 

Mr. Keller. Yes ; on one occasion in Barcelona I met him. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the occasion of your meeting Robert 
Minor in Barcelona? 

Mr. Keller. It was in a restaurant or hotel lobby after dinner or 
something of that sort. 

Mr. Matthews. W^hat did you confer with him about? 

Mr. Keller. Well, I don't exactly remember what it was. It 
wasn't anything of tremendous significance. He wasn't there very 
long, you know. 

Mr. Matt^hews. How long was Robert Minor in Spain? 

Mr. KJELLER. I could not say. 

Mr. Matthews. You said he wasn't there very long. 

Mr. Keller. Well, to the best of my knowledge, I don't believe he 
was there very long. 

Mr. jSL^iTHEws. You know Robert Minor to be an outstanding 
member of the Communist Party of the United States, do you not 5 

Mr. Keller. I have heard that. 

Mr. ISIatthews. Do you know it only from hearsay ? 

Mr. Keller. What else can I base it on? 

Mr. i\L\TTHEWS. Did you know a man in the Lincoln Battalion 
whose first name was Ivan or Evon — I-v-a-n or E-v-o-n? 

Mr. Keller. Doesn't sound very familiar. 

Mr, JVIaithews. I-v-a-n. Did you have any relations whatever 
with a man who was familiarly known in the battalion as Ivan and 
known only by his first name as a rule? 

Mr. EJXLER. Evon. 

Mr. Matthews, Yes; E-v-o-n — I-v-a-n. 



7762 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keller. Was that Evan — not Evan. 

Mr. Matthews. No; I-v-a-n. 

Mr. Keller. I can't speak for that. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know any such man who worked in 
the 

Mr. Keller. Over a year in the front, and meeting a great many 
people I cannot say positively I identify that name. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know a man in the American contingent 
of the Loyalist Army by the name of Paul Wliite? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Paul White in the United States 
before you knew him in Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. I may. He went over on the same ship that I did; 
that is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him before you sailed together? 

Mr. Keller. No; I don't believe I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Under what name did you know Paul ^Vhite? 

Mr. Keller. Never knew him under any other name. 

Mr. Matthews. You never knew Paul White under the name of 
John Adams? 

Mr. Keller. This is not particularly familiar to me. 

The Chairman. Did you know a Johnnie Adams ? 

Mr. Keller. No ; I can't say that I did. 

Mr. Matthews. You know now, do you not, that Paul White's 
real name was John Quincy Adams, don't you? 

Mr. Keller. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. And that he was a direct descendant of John 
Quincy Adams, a President of the United States? 

Mr. Keller. I do not. This is the first time I ever heard of that. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat happened to Paul White in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I don't know. I understand he was missing in action. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear anything else about Paul White's 
state other than he was missing in action? 

Mr. Keller. No. At the time that I believed I would return to 
America — when I left Spain he was still O. K. I had seen him 
myself. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see him in Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. ; 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you last see him in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I believe it was around the great retreat at Ebro, 
which occurred approximately in March of 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. And the only report you ever heard about his fate 
was that he was missing in action ; is that correct? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. I don't know any other. 

Mr, Matthews. Did you know George Mink in Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. Never heard that name before. 

Mr. Matthews. You have never heard the name of George Mink? 

Mr. Keller. To tlie best of my knowledge — I knoAv a great many 
people's names, but I don't — I am not familiar with that. 

Mr. Matthews. Perhaps you knew him by the name of George 
Hirsch in Spain. Did you know George Hirsch in Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. Doesn't sound immediately familiar to me. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Morris Pasternak in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. No; I didn't. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7763 

Mr. Matthews. Do yon know the name ? 

Mr. Keller. I have heard the name since I retnrned. 

Mr. Matthews. In what connection did you hear his name? 

Mr. Keller. I know his mother. I have" met her since I come back, 
and I understand that he was missing in action sometime before I 
arrived in Spain. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Is he still missing as far as you know? 

Mr. Keller. To the best of my knowledge'that is so. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Sid Levine? 

Mr. Keller. Yes; I know tliat name. 

Mr. ]Matthews. Did you know him in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. In what connection did you know him in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. When I first arrived at the machine-gun company as 
a private, he was a lieutenant in charge of the same company. 

Mr. Matthews. Where is Sid Levine now? 

Mr. Keller. Well, I believe he is— well, I am not positive, but I 
believe he is in America. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him in any other connection in 
Spain than the one you just described? 

Mr. Keller. No ; not to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Pliil Bard? 

Mr. Keller. I know him now. I did not know him in Spain or 

Mr. IVIatthews. You had no contact with him in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. No. 

Mr. Matthews. None wliatsoever? 

Mr. Keller. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Matthews. How many New York boys enlisted in the Abra- 
liam Lincoln Battalion, or the Fifteenth Division, Loyalist Army? 

Mr. Schwab. May I consult my client just a moment. 

Mr. Keller. I must say in fairness that when volunteers came to 
Spain they came from all over the world. They came by every par- 
ticular means — from Mexico, from South America, Americans who 
lived in Europe. There is no way of knowing, except by hearsay, and 
it is impossible to put a number of how many i^eople came from New 
York City. ^ 

The Chairman. As long as you don't know, you can say you don't 
know. 

Mr, Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mati^hews. Was there any Abraham Lincoln Brigade in 
Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. Positively. 

Mr. Matthews. There was? 

Mr. Keller. There was, positively. 

Mr. Matthews. A unit of the Loyalist Army known in Spain as 
the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Keller, lliat is correct, and so identified, and it has been 
written about extensively. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. Identified where? 

Mr. Keller. In the newspapers of Spain and the newspapers of 
America. I could say it is universally known. It is known all over 
the world by that name. 

Mr. Maithews. Well. I am not asking you how it was known all 
over the world. I am asking you if there was an Abraham Lincoln 
Brigade in Spain itself? 



7764 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keller. (No answer.) 

The Chairman. Is that the official title of the brigade? 

Mr. Keller. Official title. 

The Chairman. Known in Spain as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Keller. The Premier of Spain addressed our battalion. He 
referred to us as the men of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know a man in Spain named Hikiss? 

Mr. Keller. Never heard that name before, to the best of my 
knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever discharged as the commissar of 
war ? 

Mr. Keller. No. 

Mr. Matthews. How long did you retain that position? 

Mr. Keller. When I was discharged from the Army I was given 
an honorable discharge. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you retain that position as long as you were 
in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I was wounded. I went to the hospital at that time. 
I still retained the title, but I didn't function in the office. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, you mean to say that you never 
received a formal discharge from the office of commissar of war, as 
you describe it? 

Mr. Keller. I was given an honorable discharge by the Army when 
I left, that is all. 

Mr. Matthews. That is when you left the Army ? 

Mr. Keller. When I left for — when I left Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Then you never encountered any charges of any 
kind with respect to your carrying out of your functions as commissar 
of war? 

IMr. Keller. No ; I think not. Even these 

Mr. Matthews. Well, is that true or not? 

Mr. Schwab. Let him answer the question. 

Mr. Matthews. I am asking for an answer. 

Mr. Keller. It is positively not true and I resent the cj[uestion. 
My record in Spain was good. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever encourage your men to pillage 
houses in the occupied villages of Spain? 

Mr. Keller. That is not true. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, the answer is no; is it? 

Mr. Kei.ler. The answer is no. 

Mr. Schwab. Did anybody 

Mr. Keller. Nobody did that. We had respect for the peasants 
and we done this thing, we preserved the sparse materials that the 
Government had. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever charged with lack of discipline? 

Mr. Keller. No; I never was. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever charged with encouraging drunken- 
ness in your battalion ? 

Mr. Keller. Your honor — your honor, I am sorry. If I can speak 
witli a little bit of earnestness I resent these questions. 

The Chairman. You won't have to answer 

Mr. Keller. The answer is no. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Mr. Chairman, the witnesses here testified to 
incontrovertible facts and I am asking the witness for his 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7765 

Mr. Schwab. Do you call those "incontrovertible facts"? 

The CHAnoiAN. You want to have an opportunity to deny any 
charges made against you, do you not? 

Mr. Schwab. Mr. Chairnum, I say this 

The Chairman. You want to have an opportunity to deny any 
charges made against you by other witnesses? 

Mr. Schwab.' Mr. Chairman, in amplifying that suggestion, not 
only would we like the opportunity of denying them, we would like 
the opportunity similar to the witnesses who have testified before, 
to explain tliese things, even though 

The Chairman. Well, he is explaining them. There has been no 
opportunity denied him. He has not been denied that. 

Mr. Keller. As emphatically as I can I deny this as positively 
as I can deny this. I want the record that way. My record with 
the Army was good, and I was complimented for it when I left, and 
I am still proud of it. 

Mr. Mason. There is nothing more emphatic in the English lan- 
guage than "no." 

Mr. Keller. I agree with you. 

Mr. Matthews. After your return from Spain, Mr. Keller, did you 
make a tour of the United States, a speaking tour ? 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews, In that speaking tour of the United States did 
you publicly take up the question of charges which had been made 
against you by certain persons who had been in Spain at the same 
time you were? 

]Mr. Keller. I don't understand the question. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you made speeches over the United States 
on a tour? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In those speeches did you answer or make reply 
to 

Mr. Keller. I spoke for Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Charges which had been made against you })er- 
sonally by persons who had known you in Spain ? 

Mr. Keller. I couldn't be so egotistical. I couldn't be so ego- 
tistical. I didn't do that. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, it is about 

Mr. Matthews. I want to ask the witness one more question. 
Have you ever been arrested in the United States, Mr. Keller? 

Mr. Keller. I was arrested about 2 weeks ago when I attem])ted 
to picket the French consul in behalf of the Spanish refugees who 
were being repatriated to Franco, Spain, where it means certain 
deatli for them. 

Mr. Matthews. Under what auspices were you demonstrating? 

Mr. Schwab. He hasn't finished answering. 

Mr, Keller. It was disorderly conduct charge that I was arrested 
under— arrested for, this attempted picket line at the French consul. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you through? 

Mr. Keller. I am. 

Mr. Matthews. Under what auspices was this picket line in front 
of the Frencli consulate? 

Mr. Keller. Fifty-seven organizations in New York City tliat I 
represented — .57 organizations in New York City got together and 
formed an organization of organizations. 



7766 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. What is the name of the association ? 

Mr. Keller. Emergency Committee to Save the Spanish Refugees, 
and it was under their auspices the picket line was held. 

Mr. Matthews. Emergency Committee to Save the Spanish Refu- 
gees ? Is that the exact title of the organization ? 

Mr. Keller. Maybe a small deviation, but that is in essence. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did that organization authorize the picketing? 

Mr. Keller. They did. They publicized it in the newspapers 
beforehand. 

Mr. VooRHis. The whole organizations authorized it? 

Mr. Keller. It was a meeting at which 57 organizations were rep- 
resented that this picket line was voted — that it was voted to take 
this action of attempting to picket the French consul. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the head of this organization? 

Mr. Keller. Well, I can't be sure at the present moment. I didn't 
attend the meeting at which this went through and I can't say. It is 
a new organization. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Would the exact name of the organization bo 
The Spanish Refugee Relief Campaign? 

Mr. Keller. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it a new organization which has been recently 
formed ? 

Mr. Keller. Well, it is an association of all the organizations, 

Mr. Matthews. Is it a new organization which has recently been 
formed ? 

Mr. Keller. Well, it is hardly an organization. It is an associa- 
tion of all the organizations that aided and supported Spain. By 
that I mean the democracy of Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Has the association been recently brought about? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. That association was brought about I would 
say last month. 

Mr. Matthews. As a result in the split of the Spanish Refugee 
Relief Campaign? 

Mr. Keller. Well, I want to give exact answers and I don't know 
all the facts there. I am not very active in tliat and I would rather 
not 

Mr. INIatthews. Well, you know that there was some difficulty 
inside tlie organization known as the Spanisli Refugee Relief Cam- 
paign, don't you? 

Mr. Keller. Yes; I know there was some disaffection among the 
people who worked there. Many of them seemed to be most in- 
terested in protecting the French Government from any embarass- 
ment and we who were in Spain and supported Spain and who 
know the Spanish people — we have many friends who have been 
sent back to Franco of Spain and have been shot there. We who 
felt the most bitter about this thing decided on this organization. I 
can't speak for the others. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat has been the disposition of the case under 
which you were arrested? 

]Mr. Keller. Still in court. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been arrested 

Mr. Keller. I was never arrested in my life up until this occa- 
sion. 



ux-A:\ii:rvT(\\x pnoi'AGAXDA ACXivrriKS 7767 

Mr. ]\rATTin-AVs. That fonipietes my exjiniinatioii. 

The Chaikmax. (ientlenien. we have to conclude with these wit- 
nesses this afternoon. 

Mr. HcinvAB. I understood this witness was <>oing: to be given a 
full opportunity to answer these previous witnesses. 

Tlie rHV'R:MAX. Do you want to? 

The "WiTXKSs. I would like that opportunity. 

Tlie C'haikmax. Then sui)pose we meet back here at 2 o'clock. 

Mr. SnnvAB. Mr. Chairman, do you know whether we will be 
able to i2et tln'ou<>h with these four witnesses today ^ 

The C'liAiiniAX. I think we can. We will make every effort to 
do so. 

Tlie committee will recess nntil 2 o'clock p. m. 

(Wliereupon at 12:2.5 p. m.. a recess was taken nntil 2 p. m., the 
same day.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The CiiATRMAx. The committee will come to order. 

The Chairman desi<>nates a subconnnittee composed of the chair- 
ma"., the gentleman from Illinois, JNIr. Mason, and Mr. Voorhis from 
California. 

You may call your witness. Mr. ISIatthews. 

]\Ir. Mattiikws. Mr. Keller. 

Tlie Chairman. Come around, Mr. Keller. 

TESTIMONY OF FRED KELLER— Resumed 

Mr. Keller. My counsel has not arrived yet. 

The CiiumrAx. We will wait a few moments. Yon may proceed 
now. 'Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. ]Mr. Keller, when yon were arrested in New York 
recently, in connection with the picketing of the French consulate, 
were you taken before a magistrate? 

Ml'. Keller. Yes: I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Did von testifv before the magistrate that vou 
used another name than that of Fred Keller at any time? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. In any connection? 

]\rr. Keller. I did. 

Ml'. ^Matthews. Then your testimony here this morning was false, 
was it. when you said that 3'ou had never used another name? 

Mr. Keller. Xo: that is not correct. I told them that I was a 
member of a union and in that nnion the book I carried did not have 
Fred Keller on the book. 

Mr. MArrHEWs. What name does that union book have on it ? 

INIr. Keller. Do I have to answer that? 

^Ir. Schwab. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. What name does that book liaA'e on it? 

Mr. Keller. Unless the chairman insists I would rather not give 
that because that is how I make my living and I am not anxious 
to have that name used. I assure the committee it is of no conse- 
c{uence. 

94931— 40— vol. 13 7 



7768 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Well, as I understand it. this morning you were 
asked the question if you had ever used any other name except Fred 
Keller? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you said you had not. Now, as I understand 
your testimony you used another name in some union. 

Mr. Keller. Yes: I did. 

The Chairman. The union that you are affiliated with? 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, what was the purpose of using the other 
name? 

Mr. Keller. It was just impossible for me to get a book in my 
own name. I needed work. 

The Chairman. Why was it impossible? 

]Mr. Schwab. Do 3'ou want to answer the question ? 

Mr. Ke^ller. Well, it was not possible for me to use my own name 
in that union. I work as a longshoreman. A friend of mine offered 
to get me a book there and he proceeded — and he provided me with 
a book to work with. 

The Chairman. You mean that the union would not have [)ermit- 
ted you to join under your true name; is that correct? 

i\Ir. Kf;ller. It would have cost me a lot of — more money — I 
couldn't afford it at the time. 

The Chairman. Why would it cost you more money? 

Mr. Keller. Initiati(m fees and things of that t3'pe. 

The Chairman. Well, you had that anyway when you joined under 
any name, didn't you? 

iNIr. Keller. No. My friend gave me this book that I used. 

The Chairman. It wasn't a real book? 

yir. Keller. Yes, it was a genuine book. 

The Chairman. It was a book of someone else and they let you 
use it? 

]Mr. Keller. Yes. sir; that is correct. 

The Chairman. In order to work? 

]Mr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So you could avoid having to paj' initiation fees 
and dues? 

jNIr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lynch. In effect it was a fraud being perpetrated on the 
union, ]Mr. Keller? 

Mr. Keller. Xo ; I wasn't — I didn't use another name. 

]\Ir. Schwab. What has all this got to do, Mr. Chairman 

The Chairman. Now, be courteous. Nobody is excited here. 

Mr. Schwab. I object to this whole line of testimony. It has 
nothing to do with the ])urposes of this connnittee. 

Mr. Mason. It seems to me if the witness has testified under oath 
here to something that was not true, and the testimony that he gave 
before a magistrate contradicts the testimony that he gave today 
that in itself, it seems to me, is pertinent and is of interest to this 
committee and we should know those facts. 

Mr. Schwab. Tie has already answered those questions, ]Mr. Mason. 
I object to going into this matter r.ny further. 

The Chairman. Now. wliat is your c|uestion? You are asking liim 
to tell the name 



I IX-A.MEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7769 

Mr. Mattiikavs. I want to know 

The C'haikmax. Under which he went into the union? 

Mr. Lynch. That is right. 

Mr. Ma-tihiavs. I want to know now if he is emploj^ed at this 
time or has ht'en eniphned recently nnder another name, quite apart 
from his nnion book. Is he usino- another name with his emphjyer 
than the name of Fred Keller. 

The C'liAiioiAx. All rioht. you can ask him that question. 

]Mr. Mattiieavs. Under what name are you employed^ 

Mr. Keller. I am not employed at the present time. 

]Mi'. Matthews. Have you been em])loyed recently? 

(Xo answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. AVhen was your last employment? 

^Ii-. Keller. Approximately a month ago. 

Mr, Matthews. And under what name were you employed a month 
ago^ 

Mr. Keller. I told you that I used another book in the industry in 
which I work. 

]Mr. Matthews. I am not concerned about the union book but under 
"what name did your einployer have you listed? 

!Mr. Keller. I used the same one as the one on the book. 

]\Ir. Matthews. "What name was that? 

The ('HAuarAX. Wait just a minute. Have you ever used any other 
name except the one name that you are talking about that was in the 
imion book ? 

]\Ir. Keller. That is correct, I never did, 

Tlie Chatrmax. That is the only name you ever used? 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairmax'. You deny that you are a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

^^r. Kellir. I am not a member of the Communist Party. 

The Chaujmax. You have never been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Keller. I have never been a member of the Communist Party, 

The Chairmax. Have you ever been a member of the Young Com- 
nuniist Leagued' 

Ml'. Keller. I have never been a member of the Young Communist 
Lea»rue. 

The Chairmax. Have you ever been a member of the International 
"Workers Order? 

Mr. Keller. Xo: I am not. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any connection with the Com- 
nuniist Party!' 

(Xo answer.) 

The Chairmax. Been active in any of the work of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Keller. No. sir. 

The Chairman. Xone whatsoever? 

(Xo answer.) 

The Chairmax. "Well, no one has testified that this man is a mem- 
ber of the Comnnmist Party. 

]Mi-. Schwab. Someone has testified, ^Slr. Chairman, about hi& 
activities in Spain and I understood you to say 

The Ciiatr:\iax'. I am talking about the question of membership in 
the Communist Party. 



7770 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. There is a considerable line of questioning that has 
to do with whether or not this man is giving truthful answers. 

The Chairman. I understand that is true. He has already contra- 
dicted his testimony this morning. He said he did not go under any 
other name, as I remember, and now he says he did. But the point I 
have in mind is that there is no testimony here that he is a member 
of the Communist Party. 

Now, that being true, is it pertinent to require him to state under 
which name he was working in the union ? 

Mr. Matthews. Then I would like to have the question held up for 
a moment until some more questions are asked. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated just now, Mr. Keller, that you were not 
ja member of the International Workers Order; is that correct? 

Mr. Keller. No; I am not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the International 
Workers Order? 

Mr. Keller. No. I never attended one of their meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. I did not ask you if vou ever attended a meeting. 

Mr. Keiler. No; I have never been a memper of the International 
Workers Order. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask you if this is your photograph? Is that a 
picture of yourself? 

(Exhibiting photograph to witness.) 

Mr. Keller. That is. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a co])y of The New Order, the official organ 
of the International Workers Order for July 1938. On page 16 there 
appears a photograph of Mr. Keller, which he just identified, and 
above the photograph is this caption: ''Fred Keller, Spanish war 
hero, a member of order." 

The Chairman. What about that? 

Mr. Keller. I can only say that if they said that that is a mis- 
quote; that I never joinetl that particular organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever address a communication to Max 
Bedacht ? 

Mr. Keller. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Never did? AVere you ever known by any other 
title than that of commissar of war in the Lincoln Battalion? 

Mr. Keller. This morning I testified that I once was a sergeant in 
a machine-gun company, and I held the position in — two positions in 
a machine-gun company besides the title of commissar of war. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever known as the political commissar? 

Mr. Kfxler. Political commissar is not the correct term. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, were you ever known as the political com- 
missar of the Lincoln Battalion ? 

Mr. Keller. I can't say. I can only say what I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever sign yourself as political commissar 
of the Lincoln Battalion? 

Mr. Keller. Not to the best of my knowledge. My correct titl'^ 
was commissar of war, and I think in all official communications I 
must have used that. 

Mr. Matthews. When was that title conferred u])on you? 

Mr. Keller. I think it was about October 15 in 1937. 



TX-AMKUKWX I'ltOrAOANDA ACTIVITIES 7771 

Mr. Matthews. Ami how loiii:' did you have that? Until the thne 
you left Spain in 1938^ 

]Mr. Kki.i.ki;. Ai)|)i()xiniatoly June '38. 

Mr. Maitiif.ws. Mr. Keller, is that your signature? 

(ExhiWitinii- ))aniphlet to the witness.) 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Matthkws. Is that your signature? Never mind the letter, 
is that your siiiuature? 

Mr. ivELLER. I can't be sure, but it probably is. 

]\Ir. ^Matthews. Mr. Chairman, here is a copy of the New Order, 
oilicial oraan of the International Workers Order for March 1938. 
On pa.iie li there is a letter dated January 31, 1938, addressed to 
]Max Bedacht, whom the witness just testified he never wrote any 
letters to. This is on the letterhead of the Battalion Lincoln-AVash- 
inoton. Fifteenth Bripide International, from Spain. It is signed 
"Fred Keller, Battalion Political Commissar." 

Now, did you write that letter, Mr. Keller? 

(Handing letter to the witness.) 

^Ir. Keller. I never remember that letter. I can say when we 
were in Spain that the office that carried on work in America for 
raising publicity sent out many letters when we were at the front. 
We have no o])portunity to write letters, as I know I haven't Vv-ritten 
home in months because I was so busy. 

The Chairman. You deny that you wrote that letter? 

]Mr. Keller. Mr. Chairman, I want to say in fairness that I cannot 
be sure. I may have had somebody write such a letter for me. There 
were hundreds of such communications. 

The Chairman. You said that you thought that was your signature. 

]Mr. Keller. I am not sure that that is my signature. It doesn't 
look familiar. It looks like "Kelly." 

]\Ir. Matthews. I will show you a signature 

Mr. Keller. I don't make my signature 

The Chairman. Read the letter so you can state whether or not 
you wrote the letter. 

(Mr. Matthews handing letter to the witness.) 

Mr. Keller. I can say I never wrote the letter. I would not say 
I did not authorize somebody else to do the letter. 

The Chairman. You would not have authorized somebody to sign 
your name i 

Mr. Keller. No. On occasions they would because 

The Chairman. I mean if you authorized someone to write the 
letter you would sign your name? 

]\Ir. Keller. I can't say whether that 

The Chairman. Doesn't that look like your signature, Mr. Keller? 

Mr. Keller. It has some similarity to my signature. 

]Mr. Matthews. Mr. Keller, is that your signature? 

(Handing j^aper to the witness.) 

Mr. Keller. That is; yes, sir. 

Mr. ^Matthews. This is a signature on a voucher which Mr. Keller 
just signed today. Do the signatures compare, Mr. Keller, as being 
the same signatures? 

]Mr. Keller. I don't think it is of relative importance when I 
denied that I wrote 

The Chairman. Let us have some order. 



7772 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Kelleb. Mr. Chairman, when I deny that I wrote a letter to 
the International Workers Order or said I was never a member of the 
International Workers Order I meant that. That is exactly the 
way it was in my mind, and I never remember writing this letter to 
this thing. The fact that I may have authorized such a letter, I 
don't know. But I can say that at the front we never had any op- 
portunity to write letters, and this letter was probably written from 
some place else. 

The Chairman, You know whether that is your signature, to be 
frank? 

Mr. Kei.ler. Yes; it does appear to be my signature. 

The Chairman. But you don't recall writing the letter? 

Mr. Keller. And I don't recall signing the letter either. 

The Chairman. What is the date of that letter ? l 

Mr. Matthews. January 31, 1938. i 

The Chairman. All right, read the letter. ' 

Mr. Matthews. The letter reads as follows: i 

January 31st. 1938. 

:Max Bedacht. I. W. O., 80 5th Avenue, N. Y. C. 

Dear Comrade Bedacht : 

The boys of the Lincohi Battalion wish to thaiilv the I. W. O. for tlie wool 
sweaters we recently received. 

They came in a time when they were very much needed — riglit into our 
trenches, while we were stationed in one of the coldest regions of Spain. 

The moral and material aid that the I. W. O. has given to the American 
Brigade here, has been an important factor in our service to the Spanish Peo- 
ples Army. In recent weeks, during which we have been unusually active, no 
small concern of ours has been with the elements. 

Your very necessary gifts will serve as a constant r(>minder of the great 
efforts the American workers are jointly waging in our tight against the Fascists. 

Salud y Victoria. Fred Keller. 

and then in typewriting "Fred Kelly, Battalion Political Commissar" 
and below that the signature of "Frank Rogers'" and below that in 
typewriting, "Frank Rogers, Party Secretary." 

Who was Frank Rogers, Mr. Keller? 

^Ir. Keller. He was in our battalion in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Of what party was he the secretary? 

Mr, Keller. I don't know that. I don't ever remember this let- 
ter. And the reason that I am pretty sure that I would never allow 
my signature to be put on the same letter with one from a political 
representative, because that was indirect contradictions to the orders 
of the Spanish Republican government. 

Now, that I have heard the text of the letter I can say that I 
might have allowed or authorized this letter to be written in thanks 
to the people who sent these things. We often done that when 
people sent us gifts there, but the fact that the party secretary signs 
his name, also, to the letter, makes me believe that it is hardly pos- 
sible, because that would have been in direct contradiction to my 
orders from the Si:)anish Republican government", that I never was 
to be identified with any political party. 

Mr. Matpheavs. Mr. Keller, I would like to ask you for a yes or 
no answer to the question. Is that your signature? [Handing 
pamphlet to the witness.] 

Mr. Keller. I say that I cannot be sure. I don't want to say that 
is my signature. I never remember the letter. I admit there is a 



UN-AMERICAN I'UOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7773 

po-vil»ility of uiy aiitliorizino- such a letter. I cannot say that that is 

m}' sigrnature. 

The Chairman. You said a moment a<2;o it appears to be. 

Mr. K1L1.EK. It savs "Fred Kelly"' there, doesn't it? If I may 
say so. isn't that "Kelly''? That isn't my name at all. Well it is 
obvious a line of fraud of some kind because the signature here says 
"Fred Kelly." 

Mr. ]SIattiiews. No; it doesn't. 

Mr. Keller. The typino- under the thing said ''Fred Kelly.'' My 
name is "'Fred Keller.'' I think anybody I authorized to sign my 
name would at least have been correct in the spelling of it. 

The Chairmax. Does it have the signatured Let me see the sig- 
nature. 

Mr. Keller. I am quite certain now that this letter was never with 
mv knowledge or anything like that. I have never seen it before. 

The Chairman. Then you deny that you wrote this letter and deny 
tiiat this is your signature? 

:\Ii-. Keller. I deny that I wrote the letter. The fact that I author- 
ized the letter I am not willing 

The Chairman. You deny also it is your signature? 

Mr. Keller. Yes; I will deny that that is my signature and I ^yill 
deny also that anybody who signed my name, typed or otherwise, 
and misspelled it, they certainly had no right to use my name. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Was it also a mistake to put the words "Political 
Commissar"' on this letter? 

Mr. Keller. I told you in the beginning my title was commissar 
of Avar. I never authorized anybody to use any other title but that. 

]\Ir. ^Matthews. Did you know a Fred Kelly in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. No; never did. 

Mr. Mattheavs Was there a Fred Kelly who was political com- 
misar for the Lincoln battalion? 

Mr. Keller. No. 

Mr. ^Matthews. That is, you Avere the only one who occupied that 
\)()<i at this period, Avere you not? This is January 31, 1938? 

Mr. Keller. That is correct. 

^Ir. Mattheavs. Have you ever seen Mr. BroAvder's The Peoples' 
Front. :Mr. Keller, this book? 

( Exliil>iting book to the Avitness.) 

Mr. Keller. I have never read it. 

Mr. Mattheavs. On page 182 of Earl BroAvder's book, The Peoples' 
Front. Avhich is already in evidence before this committee, appears 
the foUoAving statement by Mr. Browder: 

And not the least source of our pride is the fact that over sixty per cent of 
The Lincoln Battalion members are members of the Communist Party. 

Is Mr. Browder incorrect in that statement, Mr. Keller? 

Mr. Keller. I can say that I can giA'e no definite figures on this. 
I am not concei-ned with Avhat BroAvder or anybody else said about 
the Lincoln Battalion. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did you meet Earl BroAvder in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I heard him speak. 

Mr. ^Iattheavs. Did you personally talk to him? 

Mr. Keller. I never spoke to the man in my life. 



7774 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to raise the 
question of the other names under which Mr. Keller has stated to 
the magistrate in New York that he was employed, and the reasons 
why he told the magistrate he used other names. 

The Chairman. Did you give another name before the magis- 
trate's court ? 

Mr. Keller. No; I did not. The magistrate said it wasn't neces- 
sary that I give it. 

INIr. Mati'hews. What was the reason you stated to the magistrate 
that you used another name? 

Mr. Keller. I told him that that was my means of making a 
livelihood. 

Mr. vScHWAB. Just a moment. I object to this whole 

Mr. INIattiiews. Did j^ou tell the magistrate 

Mr. Schwab. Just a moment. I object to going any further into 
this line. It has nothing to do with the objects of this committee. 

The Chairman. It is very much the object of this committee to 
find out whether or not people use other names. We have had quite 
a bit of evidence of members of the Communist Party who use other 
names. 

Mr. Schwab. Nothing illegal about it. 

The Chairman. Using other names? 

Mr. Schwab. Yes; nothing illeaal about it in the State of New 
York. 

^Ir. jSIatthews. Did you tell the magistrate in New York that you 
used another name because you were known as a Communist under 
the name of Fred Keller? 

Mr. Keller. I did not. On the stand I was asked if I was a Com- 
munist, and I said I was not. 

The Chairman. Mr. Keller. 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you hear the testimony of the previous 
witness ? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

The Chairman. Did you know the previous witness in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

The Chairman. AYhen did you first meet him ? 

]SIr. Keller. I first met him, I believe, it was about November 
1937. 

The Chairman. Where did you meet him? 

Mr. Keller. There was considerable — I was at the front at Fuentes 
De Ebro, and I had to travel several miles back, and he was in charge 
of some kitchen unit there. 

The Chairman. State whether or not you deny the testimony he 
ffave here. 

Mr. Keller. I emphatically deny everything he said — not every- 
tliing he said, but most of the accusations are a thin tissue of lies. 
We speak with a lot of bitterness Avhen we denounce him. 

The Chairman. You don't undertake to deny the things when you 
were not present ? 

Mr. Keller. He said he was at the front. This man was never 
1 day at the front. I want that entered in the record, not even 
1 day. 

The Chairman. You deny that he was at the front ? 



t? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7775 

Mr. Keller. Yes. Could he speak of my activities, and if he were 
any witness, I think it can be asked throu<2:hout the battalion — I 
was known all over as a non-Conunnnist. There was notliiiiii- in 
Spain — it was well known I was non-C onnnunist throuj^hont Spain. 
It is still well known in America, but he hatches some story of, I 
might call ''control commission," tluit I was some stoojje of Moscow 
or somethino-. Tliat is not true. l"he proof that the battalion was'nt 
a Conmuniist institution was that men, wlio were never associated 
with any jiolitical party, as I was never before I went to Spain, rose 
to the ranks that I attained there. 

The Chairman. How many times did you see him in Spain? 

Mr. Keller. I saw him on several occasions. 

Tlie Chairman. Two times? 

]\Ir. Keller. He was a disciplinary case about three times, and I 
saw him on all those three occasions. 

The CHAiR:kL\N. You had control over him or he came within your 
jurisdiction? 

Mr. Keller. They were referred to me, yes. ]\Iostly because he 
Avas a coward and wouldn't a'o to the front and nuiny times he was 
spoken to. 

Mr. Lynch. Did your counsel just suggest that answer to you, 
that he was a coward^ 

Mr. Keller. He did not. He said explain it to me. 

Mr. Schwab. May the record show that I said "explain your 
answer."' 

Tlie CHATR^fAN. Where did you see him outside of the three times? 
Did you see him any more? 

Mr. Keller. Oh, I have seen him more than three times, but I 
remember on three different occasions he w^as a disciplinary case. 

The CHAiR:\rAN. You say he never went to the front and never 

^Ir. Keller. He never had one day at the front. 

The Chairman. Xever did engage in any actual combat? 

Mr. Keller. He never engaged in any actual combat. 

The Chairman. How did lie get out of it? 

Ml'. Keller. He deserted. Our battalion had a minimum of de- 
serters. 

The Chairman. He was there for a year before he deserted. 

Mr. Keller. He was never there for a year. 

The Chairman. How long was he there before he deserted? 

]Mr. Keller. Well. I can't speak with very much authority. I 
would say a])i)roximately 8 or 9 months. I know that he came — 
he was the first — got near the front when he was in charge of a 
kitchen, unit at a ])lace called Quinto. That was about November 
1937. It was in 1938, in March, that he deserted, so we can say that 
he had 5 months' associationship with our brigade. 

Tlie Chairman. And your statement is that during the 5 months 
he never was in actual combat? 

Mr. Keller. He never was in actual combat. 

The Chairman. Do you know the the terms under which the men 
enlisted — the period for which they enlisted? 

Mr. Keller. There were never any terms of enlistment as far as 
J know. In my own case there wasn't. 

Ihe CiTAiRM.\N. "Wasn't it understood that they were enlisting for 
a G month's period. 



7776 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keller. I luive never heard that — certainly I have never known 
of those terms or circumstances. 

The Chairman. I say yon never heard of that? 

Mr. Keller. There were arrangements by which a doctor dechired 
a man unfit for front-line service. 

The Chairman. I wasn't speakino; about that. When they en- 
listed 

Mr. Keller. For a 6 months' service — duty. 

The Chairman. That is what I am talking about. 

Mv. Keller. I never heard of that. 

The Chairman. You never heard of it? 

Mr. Keller. No, sir. 

The Chairman. AVhat were the conditions you enlisted for — what 
were the conditions or agreements under which you enlisted? 

Mr. Keller. No formal terms of agreement. 

The Chairman. You had to sign something, didn't you? 

Mr. Keller. No, I never signed anything. 

The Chairman. Did you take an oath? 

Mr. Keller. I never took an oath. 

The Chairman. Never was any understanding about the length of 
time that anj-body enlisted ? 

Mr. Keller. No, there never was. 

The Chairman. Well, they could do anything. They could quit 
any time they wanted to, couldn't they? 

Mr. Keller. W^e were under the regulations and discipline of the 
Spanish Republican Army. 

The Chairman. Wliat did that provide as the duration of enlist- 
ment ? 

Mr. Keller. After an action was over and the troops retired they 
were taken to the rear guard. Men could take up with a certain 
commission, which I had something to do with, and give reasons why 
they would like to be repatriated to America if they were — if they 
wanted that. 

The Chairman. In other words, there wasn't any regulation of 
the Army that jirevented any of these volunteers from leaving any 
time they wanted to? 

Mr. Keller. They couldn't leave in the midst of a military action. 

The Chairman. 1 understand that. 

Mr. Keller.. They couldn't leave without permission and formal 
discharge from the International Brigade headquarters. 

The Chairman. The point I am trying to clear up, since there 
wasn't any understanding or agreement when they joined, why was 
it necessary to get your permission to quit ? 

Mr. Keller. The army is the highest type of organization. We 
can't have people that just walk out any time at all. 

The Chairman. That is true, but you say there wasn't any oath 
required; they signed nothing, there was no agreement as to how 
long they were going to fight. 

Mr. Keller. There was never any such thing. When a man 
wanted to come back he went before the medical tribmial and if he 
was declared unfit for front-line service 

The Chairman. They would let him go? 

Mr. Keller. They would be automatically discharged just as soon 
as the Govermnent could get around. 



rX-AMERK AN rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7777 

The CiiAiKMAN. Was that the only reason they could assign? 

Mr. Kkixkk. No. there were others. Family troubles, other 
thuio's, and many people were sent back in America to speak in 
America and tell what they had seen in Spain. 

The C'haik.max. Sent batk by the brigade? 

Mr. Keller. Yes. 

The Chairman. "Who Avould send those back? Send them back for 
the purpose of eidisting more men? 

Mr. Keller. No. 

The Chairman. For tlie pur|)ose of 

]\rr. KixLER. Xobody was ever sent back until such time as there 
were never any further need for enlistment. We had all the men 
that the Government wanted. 

The Chairman. You never did attend a Communist meeting under 
the auspices of the Conmumist Party either in Spain or the United 
States? 

Mr. Keller. Xo, sir. 

The Chairman. Any other questions? 

Mr. Lynch. Yes. I have a few questions. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Lynch. Mr. Keller, you said if a person wanted to be relieved 
of responsibility of military duty and return to the United States 
that tlie matter Mould come u]) to you for consideration, is that right? 

Mr. Keller. On most occasions it would, yes. Not entirely — not 
for every 

Mr. Lwnch. All right, and j^ou would decide whether or not you 
would give him ]:>ermission to return to the United States, is that 
correct t 

Mr. Keller. No. I didn't have anything to say. There were many 
elements to be c(msidered. 

]Mi-. Lynch. AVho had the say? 

Mr. Keller. The Government. 

Mr. Lynch. What Government? 

Mr. Keller. Government of the Spanish Republic. I could only 
submit 

Mr. Lyn( n. You would submit a recommendation? 

]Mr. Keller. A statement or recommendation. 

Mr. Lynch. In other words, the Lincoln Brigade or the Washing- 
ton-Lincoln Brigade was entirely responsible to the Spanish Repub- 
lican Govermnent ( 

Mr. Keller. We were responsible directly to the headquarters of 
the International Brigade and from then — and they were responsible 
to the Government. 

Mr. Lynch. And a member or a person who had enlisted in the 
Lincoln Brigade was not permitted to return to America or leave the 
country or get out of the military service without the permission of 
the Spanish Republican Government, isn't that correct? 

Mr. Keller. That is correct. 

Mr. Lynch. And you would make the intermediate report and 
reconnnended whether they be retained or whether they be relieved of 
res])onsibility. is that correct? 

Mr. Keller. That is correct. 

^Ir. Lynch. And wluit military experience did you have before you 
went to Europe { 



7778 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keller. I had no military experience. 

Mr. Lynch. What was your aj>e at that time? 

Mr. Keller. Twenty-three. 

Mr. Lynch. And what work had you done before you went to 
Europe ? 

Mr. Schwab. That has already been answered. 

Mr. Lynch. I submit not. 

Mr. Keller. I worked at many things — several thinos. 

Mr. Lynch. From 20 to 23 what was your primary work? 

Mr. Keller. Worked in a trade-union. 

Mr. Lynch. Trade-union as an organizer? 

Mr. Kp:ller. Worked as an elevator operator. I worked as a 
laborer; worked at a great many things. 

Mr. Lynch. Laborer and elevator operator. Anything else of im- 
portance ? 

Mr. Keller. Playground director. I once worked for the National 
Broadcasting Co. 

Mr. Lynch. What were you doing with the National Broadcasting 
Co.? 

Mr. Keller. I was an usher. 

Mr. Lynch. Now, when you received your passport what address 
did you give in New York? 

Mr. Keller. The address where I was living at that time. 

Mr. Lynch. What was it? 

Mr. Keller. I don't correctly remember where I was living at that 
time. I lived with my family. 

Mr. Lynch. Don't remember what the address was? 

Mr. Keller. No, I don't. That was 4 years ago or 3 years ago. 

Mr. Lynch. Can't remember where your family was living when 
3^ou went to Europe? 

Mr. Keller. I think it is the present address, where I live now. 

Mr, Lynch. I am asking, can you remember that, to test your 
memory. You testified about so manv things here. Can vou remem- 
ber that ? 

Mr. Keller. I think it is the same address that I have at present. 

Mr. Lynch. What is that address ? 

Mr. Keller. 1364 Sixth Avenue. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you ever live at 227 Sixtv-eighth Street, New 
York City? 

Mr. Keller. What was that ? 

Mr. Lynch. 227 Sixty-eighth Street, New York City. 

Mr. Keller. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you ever know a fellow named Louis Stark? 

Mr. Keller. Stark — I don't think I remember his name. 

Mr. Lynch. All right. Did you give the name of Fred P. Keller, 
Jr., when you obtained a passport? 

Mr. Keller. I am not positive. I gave my correct name and that 
is my correct name. 

Mr. Lynch. Junior? 

Mr. Keller. (No answer.) 

Mr. Lynch. And w hat birth date did you give ? 

Mr. Keller. I believe it was June 4, 1913. 

Mr. Lynch. And you gave here June 4, 1914. Which is correct? 

Mr. Keller. '13. i 



TX-AMERKWN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7779 

Mv. Lyxcit. "IH is correct? 

yiv. Kixi.KK. Yes, si I'. 

^Ir. Lynch. Did you know lluit. you <iave "14 when you started 
your testimony liere a few moments n<H) i 

]Mr. Kkllek. I think I <>ave '13 — I am not positive. 

Mr. Lynch. What did you say that you were going abroad for at 
the time you made your passport ap])lication ? 

Mr. Ki:i.Li;i{. I don't think 1 gave any statement at all. I went 
there and I got it the following Wednesday. I got it very rapidly. 
I remember that. I rememlxM- the clerk making a point of it. 

Mr. Lynch. And you knew, of course, at that time you were going 
to S))ain to tight in the cause of the Republican Government of Spain, 
didn't you ^ 

;Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Lyxcii. Sir? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. And didn't you say in your passport application that 
yon were going for a ^-month pleasure visit to France and Germany i 

Mr. Keller. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Lynch. Will you deny it ? 

Mr. Kei.ler. I don't remember giving any statement of why I w^as 
going to Europe. 

Mr. Lynch. Will you deny that in your passport application you 
said you weie goino- to France and Germany for 2 months' pleasure 
trip ? 

5lr. Keller. I will not deny it because I don't remember giving 
any statement. 

^Ir. Lynch. But you did know you were going to fight in the forces 
of the Spanish Government, didn't you? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. You sailed on what ship? 

Mr. Keller. An English ship. 

]\Ir. Lynch. Laconiaf 

Mr. Keller. (Xo answer.) 

Mr. Lynch. Is that it ? 

Mr. Keller. No; I don't believe it was. 

Mr. Lynch. Xow. My. Keller, were you at the front all the time 
while you were in Si)ain? 

]Mr. Keller. At the time my battalion was there I was there. 

Ml-. Lynch. How long a period of time, let us say from November 
1987 to March 1938, did you spend at the front lines? 

Mr. Keller. Xovembei-. We were there in action about 15 days. 
We were there again from January until — through February. 

Mr. Lynch. Let us stop right there for a moment. You were there 
about 15 days in November. Then where would you go? 

Mr. Keller. We would retire to some place in the rear guard to 
give our i)eople some rest. 

Mr. Lynch. And you stayed there in the rear until sometime in 
Jamiary or February? 

Mr. ivEi.LEn. I would say about January. It was approximately 
that. We again went into action at Teruel. 

Mr. Lynch. You Avere there in action for what period of time? 

Mr. Keller. I would say about 35 days. 

;Mr. Lynch. Then vf^ired aiiain? 



7780 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keller. Just for a short while. Then we were involved in a 
big action which the — big — first great blitzkrieg, it is known ns, 
which took ns about some 20 days with a short intermediate rest, 
and then back into action again. 

Mr. Lynch. It was your duty as the head of the brigade to knoAV 
the important qualifications of the men, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Keller. Well, correction, please. I was not head of the brigade. 
I was in a position of leadership in the battalion. 

Mr. Lynch. The commissar of war ? 

]Mr. Keller. Of the battalion. 

Mr. Lynch. Does that require you to know the qualifications of 
the members of the Lincoln Battalion? 

]\Ir. Keller. That is correct. 

^Ir. Lynch. Did you know Vernon Selby? 

Mr. Keller. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you know that he was an engineer who spent 3 
vears in educating himself at the LTnited States Militarv Academv 
at West Point? 

Mr. Keller. That is correct. 

]Mr. Lynch. And what was his rank or position? 

]Mr. Keller. He was a sergeant. 

Mr. Lynch. He was a sergeant and you were the commissar? 

Mr. Keller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lynch. And the commissar would rank with what position in 
the American Army, general? 

^Ir. Keller. Major. Don't promote me. 

Mr. Lynch. And who would decide whether a sergeant should 
be made lieutenant and finally a commissar ? 

Mr. Keller. AVell, the officers that worked directly with them. 

Mr. Lynch. The officers that worked directly with them? 

^Ir. Keller. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Lynch. Were they all Americans who worked directly with 
you ;' 

]\Ir. Keller. No. Americans and Spaniards. English, Canadians, 
and othei' nationalities too. There were 57 nationalities represented 
throughout our brigade, although not all of them were immediately 
identified with our own battalion. 

Mr. Lynch. You knew that Vernon Selby had engineering experi- 
ences in Panama and South American comitries, didn't you, or did 
3^ou know" that? 

Mr. Keller. I knew Vernon had some military experience. I 
heard of his West Point experience and he was generall}- regarded 
as a very high type fellow. 

^Ir. Lynch. And he was a sergeant. Did he ever get promoted 
above a sergeant? 

Ml'. Keller. I can't be sure, but I think he was a sergeant. 

Mr. Lynch. What employment have you been engaged in since 
you returned to this country? 

Mr. Keller. As was brought out jireviously I worked for Friends 
of the Lincoln Brigade. I toured for about 9 months. 

^Ir. Lynch. And what more recently? 

]\Ir. Keller. Worked as a longshoreman. 

]Mr. Lynch. But under an assumed name? 

Mr. Keller. (No answer.) 



I'X-AM1:K1('A.\ I'lJOl'AGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7781 

Mr. Lynch. That i.s (.'orivet, isn't it ^ You said that before? 

Mr. Kem.eh. Yes. I wouUl like to make the ])oint that I (li(hi"t 
Itelieve this inorniiiji- wiien 1 was asked it' 1 ever used another name, 
I di<hrt consider that and if it was necessary I wouUl have stated it. 

Mr. Lynch. You have a Sot-ial Security number, don't you? 

Mr. Kfi.i.ki;. I don't believe I ever had one. 1 di(hi't have one 
befoic Spain. It liadn't conu' into bein<i'. 

Ml'. Lynch. And you don't have one now? 

Mr. Kkllki:. I probably have one, but I haven't got it. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you know what name you are under? 

]Mr. Kn i.KH. I don't know what it is. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you know what name you carried under the Social 
Security records? 

Mr. Kkli.kh. I (h)n't believe I have one. I am not positive I have 
one — that I was ever registered undei" the Social Security. 

Ml'. Lynch. Are you leiiularly employed? 

]Mr. Keilkr. I haven't been I'eoularly employed since I returned 
to this cou.ntry. 

Mr. Lynch. Were you or were you not presented with a life mem- 
bership by the Connnunist Party when you returned to this country ? 

^Ir. Keller. That is not true. I am very weary of denying it. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Mr. Keller, did you desert? 

JSlr. Keller. I did not. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you know a fellow by the name of Edwin Rolf? 

Mr. Keller. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you read his book? 

Mr. Keller. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Lyn< H. Do you remember on page 172, speaking about Com- 
missar Fred Keller of the Lincoln Brigade: 

H'lnsi'if s,-t a new note in military atrii'e wlion. lie appeared in striped morn- 
injr rroiisers. heavy riding hoots, a service sheepjined coat and Imge sombrero, 
a Imae o8 cnliher pistol swingin.ir at his side completed the costume. 

Correct ? 

Mr. Keller. Essentially, that is correct. 

]Mr. Lynch. Did you get those by pillaging some place or were 
thev given to you ? 

Mr. Keller. Tliat is not true. 

Mr. Lynch. Which is correct ? 

Mr. Keller. We never pillaged any place. 

'Mr. Lynch. How" did 3'OU get those? 

]\lr. Keller. Have to imderstand that in Spain there were no 
clothes — no clothes for anybody. 

Mr. Lynch. Where did you get those clothes ? 

]Mi-. Keller. Probably given to me by a government entendencia. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you know Eric Parker? 

^Ir. Keller. Fa'k' Parker. I met him. I didn't know him very 
well. 

^Ir. Lynch. Dave Rees? 

Mr. Keller. Dave Rees — I met — yes: I knew Dave Rees. 

^fr. Lynch. Was I^i-ic Parker a commissar or not? 

Mr. Keller. I went to — I had an ear injury and when I went to 
Barcelona to have it taken care of he took my place. 

Mr. Lynch. When did he take your place? 



7782 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Keller. Well, I can't be positive of the exact date but it was 
approximately March 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Keller, was Mr. Honeycombe wounded? 

Mr. Keller. No. He was never wounded. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he hospitalized for any reason? 

Mr. Keller. I can't be sure of all the details of Honeycombe. The 
only thing was Honeycombe never was a respectable member of our 
battalion. He was never at the front. I wouldn't know about him. 
I only knew him — knew of him as a disciplinary case. 

Mr. Lynch. How many Americans were in France ? 

]\Ir. Keller. In France? 

Mr. Lynch. I mean in Sixain; excuse me. 

]Mr. Keller. It is very difficult to estimate the exact number. The 
number fluctuated some ])lace between 2,800 and 3,200. 

Mr. Lynch. And how many injured or killed or otherAvise dis- 
posed of? 

Mr. Keller. I object to that. I wouldn't say that anybody else 
was disposed of. I will say that our men were killed in action. 
They died — they died very bravely. 

Mr. Lynch. How many were killed or missing? 

Mr. Keller. I can't say. I have no exact figures on the subject. 

Mr. Lynch. Have no records of it ? 

]Mr. Keller. There are records but I don't have them, and if I 
am being held exactly to the figures that I give I cannot give those 
figures. 

Mr. Matthews. ]Mr. Keller, was anybody executed wlio was a mem- 
ber of the Lincoln Battalion? 

Mr. Keller. I don't know. 

Mr. ]NLa.tthews. Wasn't a notice of the execution of Paul White 
posted for the members of the Lincoln Battalion? 

Mr. Keller. I don't know that. I was — when I left Spain Paul 
White was functioning as a member of our battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. That is all. 

Mr. Lynch. That is all. 

The Chairman. All right, who is your next witness? 

Mr. IMatthews. JNIr. Wolff. 

Mr. Keller. I want to, Mv. Chairman, refute one or two other 
tilings that Mr. Honeycombe said. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Keller. If I may. It will only take a minute. I vrant to 
again repeat that only Honeycombe was never 1 day at the front. 

The Chairman. You have made that statement. 

Mr. Keller. That he was a coward; that he never asked me or 
[iuybody else for repatriation. He was arrested once in Spain as a 
deserter. That was in the first days even before an action came up. 
When the action appeared imminent, Mr. Honeycombe went . 
to Barcelona. Earlier in the day he called me a sadist. He 
said there was no food. I want to say there wasn't much food in 
Spain. There Avasn't any food for anybody and our battalion went 
through and fought on no food or clothing. On any of these things 
if he didn't get food it was no fault of ours. Our people, all of 
them — many of them died very bravely in action. There were hun- 
dreds killed there and they suffered untold things. 



rX-A.MKKKWX TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7783 

The history of the AmericiUi battalion will be an American history, 
]\Ir. Honeycombe will oet the headlines or nevrspapers today with 
the things our men suifei-ed. It is a shame they have to be sullied 
b}' this man whom I challen<i:e to t>et five members of our brigade 
to say that he was a brave man; to say that he was anything but a 
disreputable character throuahout the entire thing in Spain. 

Mv. Masox. Mr. Chairman, the witness was given the privilege 
of refuting evidence that had been given by a former witness 

Mr. Schwab. I object to the interruption. 

]Mr. ]\Ias'.;n. St;itements of this kind are not refutation of a witness. 
It is simply one man undei- oath as compared to another man under 
oath and I don't consider that any method of refutation of anj' of 
these charges. 

The CHAIR3rA^^ Confine yourself to refutaticm. 

Mr. Keller. I agree, Mv. Congressman. I wanted to make that 
point, that he had no respect among our men. 

]\rr. Dempset. Mr. Chairman, his opinion doesn't mean a thing. 

Mv. Keller. I will comment on something else then. He said that 
the money raised by organizations here in America, that only 20 
]:)ercent of it was used for the purpose of the men of the Lincoln 
Brigade. 

We are registered under the State Department, and every cent of 
our money has to be accounted for by them, and is accounted for. 

IVIr. VooRHis. Whom do you mean by "we"? 

Mv. Keller. The organizations that head our battalion — the 
Friends of tlie Lincoln Brigade — at that time when they were in 
operation, lias strict accounting of all funds by the State Depart- 
ment, and their money was used to take 

The Chairman. Isn't that an overstatement? They don't have 
any accounting at the State Department. They require you to file 
a statement of the amount of money that you receive; isn't that it? 

jNIr. Keller. That is correct ; the money that is sent over, and what 
is the money used for. 

The Chairman. All right. 

INIr. Keller. The Friends of the Lincoln Brigade have repatriated 
and taken care of wounded and cnppled men — over 3,000. Their 
money was used, and the statement made here today that other than 
20 pei-cent of the money was just a lucrative racket is something 
which I don't have to deny. It is on the record. 

I want to say another Avord about the Communist Party 

The Chairman. Confine yourself to denial of what he said. 

Mv. Keller. I deny this. 

The Chairman. What are you denying? 

Mv. Keller. I deny the statement of his that other than 20 percent 
of the monev that was collected for the Lincoln Brigade in America 
was a lucrative racket. Those words were used this morning. 

Mr. INIason. Of course, right there, Mr. Chairman, that was his 
opinion of it as expressed as an opinion, and now we are getting your 
opinion as expressed as you saw it, and there again there is no 
evidence. 

The Chairman. This witness has the same right. 

Mr. Mason. Yes; I am not objecting to his right to make the state- 
ments. 

94931— 40— vol. 13 8 



7784 un-a:meki("an i'ropaganda activities 

Mr. Keller. Mr. Congressman, the name of Vernon Selby has been 
mentioned here. 

Mr. Dempsey. How nuich money was collected for the Lincoln 
Brigade ? 

Mr. Keller. I can't be sure. 

Mr. Dempsey. How much money was received in Spain? 

]Mr. Keller. I can't be sure of that. 

Mr. Dempsey. Then how do you happen to know auythinp; about 
what percentage 

Mr. Keller. I happen to be an officer, and worked for the organ- 
ization. 

Mr. Dempsey. If you don't know how much money was collected, 
and don't know how nuicli arrived in Spain, you don't know anything 
about it, do you? 

Mr. Keller. I say an accounting of all this was made to the State 
Department. 

Mr. Dempsey. But you have no knowledge of the situation as far 
as you are concerned? 

Mr. Keller. I am not authorized or prei)ared to present the hgures 
here but I want to say 

Mr. Dempsey. If you don't know what was collected aud what was 
received in Spain, then I think you are without knowledge to testify 
upon that. 

Mr. Schwab. If the committee is interested in the figures, Mr. 
Chairman, we can produce witnesses to testify to the real figures. 

Tlie Chairman. Now, listen, Mr. Attorney. You have been treated 
with great courtesy, and you can treat tliis committee Avith courtesy. 
Now, proceed. 

Mr. Dempsey. This witness states that it isn't true that only 20 
percent arrived in Spain, yet he says he has no knowledge of how 
much was collected nor does he have any knowledge of how much 
arrived in Spain. If that is true, I don't think you are qualified to 
testify on this subject. 

Mr. Schwab. Mr. Honeycombe wasn't 

Mr. Dempsey. He testified and apparently had knowledge. 

The Chairman. All right. What else do you w^ant to refute? 

Mr. Keller. The name of Vernon Selby has been mentioned here. 
Vei-non Selby was a very good friend of mine in Spain. It is true 
that in one case in Spain Vernon Selby did — his conduct was not all 
that we expected of the men of the Lincoln Battalion, but Vernon 
Selby was a brave man and he died very bravely in action. He be- 
lieved in what he was fighting for and I disagree and I want to say 
in front of his family, how sorry I am that his name is brought in in 
this disrespect. 

Tlie Chairman. How do you know he died in action? 

JMr. Keller. I was told by other members. When Mr. Wolff gets 
on the stand he can testify exactly to that. 

The Chairman. You have no personal knowledge of it yourself? 

Mr. Keller. I was with Selby for a long time. I was not with 
him 

The Chairman. I am talking about with reference to his death. 
You are basing your statement upon wdiat you heard just like the 
previous witness based his upon what he was told? 

jVIr. Keller. Yes. 



UX-AiMEKirAX rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7785 

The Chaikman. All ri<:iit. Any otlier statement you want to 
make ( 

Mr. KiLLiR. That is all I can think of. 

The CiiAii{M.\N. All riiiht. the next witness. 

Ml'. M.vFJHEWs. Mr. Milton Wolff. 

Tlu' Chairm.vx. Raise youi- ri^ht hand, please. Do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing- but the truth 
so help you God? 

TESTIMONY OF MILTON WOLFF 

^li-. Wolff. I do. 

The Chairman. Have a seat. 

]\{r. Matthews. Please *>ive vour full name? 

:Sh. WcLFF. :\Iilton Wolff. 

]Mr. MA'rrniAvs. What is vour address? 

Mr. Wolff. 171>4 West Twelfth Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

yiv. Matthews. Where were you born ^ 

Mr. Wolff. In Biooklyn. 

Mr. Matthews. When ^ 

Mr. Wolff. October 8, 1915. 

^Ir. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

]\Ir. AVolff. I am not. 

ilr. MAnHKWs. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ( 

Ml'. Wi LFF. I have not. 

^Ir. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the Youno- Com- 
nnniist League { 

Mr. Wolff. I have not. 

^Ir. ^Iatthiavs. When you went to Spain did you travel on a 
passj^ort issued in your own name? 

^Ir. Woi ff. I did. 

Ml-. Maitheavs. American passport? 

Mr. Wolff. Yes, sir. 

^Ir. Matthews. Was there a notation stamped on it that it was 
not iiood for travel in Spaing 

Mr. Wolff. There was. 

^Ir. Matt]if.ws. When you ap]died for that passport what reason 
did yon nive for tiaveling abroad i' 

Mr. Wolff. I don't remember the reason. 

Mr. Matthews. But you did not state that you Avere going to 
S))aii! ( 

yiv. WriLFF. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. When you applied for the passport Avas it your 
intention to go to Spain? 

Mr. W( LFF. It Avas. 

^Fr. Mattheavs. Wlien did you sail for Si:)ain? 

]V[r. Wolff. February 1937, I believe. I am not sure of that. 

^\v. M\TTHEA\s. On AA-hat ship? 

^Ir. WoTFF. It Avas a French ship. I don't remember the name. 

Mr. Matthfavs. Chain plain? 

^fr. Wolff. Xo: T don't think so. 

ATv AI \TTTiEA\s. Parix? 

Mr. Wolff. Mijiht haA-e been. 



7786 UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. How do you spell your last name, Mr. Wolff? 
Mr. Wolff. W-o-l-f-f. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhen 3'ou arrived in France did you go directly 
to Spain ? 

Mr. Wolff. I did. 

Mr. INIatthews. Where did you cross into Spain? 
Mr. Wolff. Where did I cross into S]3ain? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes. 
Mr. Wolff. What point? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Wolff. I don't know the point. It was over the Pyrenees, 
and there is no way of establishino; my location. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do with your i^assport when you 
arrived in Spain? 

Mr. Wolff. I turned it over to some ]ieople there for safekeeping^ 
because I did not want to have it on me while I was in action, be- 
cause I was aware of the fact that there was a very real possibility 
of losing it. Later events proved the correctness of my reasoning 
because I lost all of my otlier personal belongings that I came to 
Spain with. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your position in the Spanish Loyalist 
Army ? 

Mr. Wolff. When I first got there it was tliat of a soldier. When 
I left I was commander of the Lincoln Battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. When were you appointed to the position of com- 
mander of the Lincoln Battalion? 

Mr. Wolff. After a year and a half of fighting on the front line. 
I don't know the exact elate. 

Mr. Matthews. Who appointed you to that position ? 
Mr. Wolff. I was recommended by Colonel Valledor, who was the 
commander of the Fifteenth Brigade. I was recommended by him 
to the minister of defense, and the minister of defense appointed me 
commander of the battalion. 

Mv. Matthews. Was the minister of defense of the Spanish Loyal- 
ist Government ? 

Mr. Wolff. He was commander of the Fifteenth Brigade. 
Mr. Matthews. You say you were appointed commander of the 
Lincoln Battalion. In wliat respect did the Lincoln Battalion differ 
from the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Wolff. The Lincoln Battalion was one of five units in the 
Abraliam Lincoln Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. There was an Abraham Lincoln Brigade in France, 
was there? 

Mr. Wolff. Just as there was a Fighting 69th in France. It was 
known by that name. It had no official designation. 

Mr. Matthews. It Avas not officially designated in Spain: is that 
correct ? 

Mv. Wolff. Not by the minister of defense. The name was applied 
to the Fifteenth Brigade just as the na)ne the Lincoln Battalion was 
applied to the Fifty-eighth Battalion of the Fifteenth Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. How long did you hold the position of commander 
of the Lincoln Battalion? 
]Mr. Wolff. For a lialf year. 



UN-AMERirAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7787 

Mr. M.vrrHEWS. How old were you when you were appointed to 
that ])osition? 

Mr. Wolff. 23. 

Mr. Matthkws. What ])i-evi()us military tramnig did you have? 

Mr. Wolff. Xone. 

Mr. Matthews. What w^as your previous education in this country? 

]\Ir. AVoLFF. Hioh school. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you o-j-aduate from high school? 

^Ir. AVoi.FF. I did. 

ATr. Matthews. Where was that? 

Mr. AVoLFF. In Brooklyn. 

Mr. Mai^'hews. And what types of work had you done before you 
went to Spain? 

Mr. AA\)LFr. I was an art student. I was in a C. C. C. camp and 
I worked in — as a -^hippinc: clerk at one time. 

^Ir. Matthews. And you had been in Spain approximately a year 
and a half when you say you were made commander of the Lincohi 
Battalion? 

( Xo answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, how did you happen to join the Loyalist 
Army? 

Mr. AA"(^LFF. AA'hen the vrar broke out in Spain I recognized it, or 
it was my o]:)inion at least, that it was a war of democracy against 
fascism. I understood that the regularly elected republican govern- 
ment of S])ain was under attack by a rebellious army, much the same 
as the Southern Army attacked the regularly elected Government of 
the North during the Civil AA-^ar. 

I also realized that Italv and Germany had a very strong hand in 
on the Fascist side as against that of Republican Spain. 

At that time in America we were already beginning to feel and 
see the actions of our own democratic breed of fascism — I am 
Jewish, and knowing that as a Jew we are the first to suffer wdien 
fascism does come, I went to Spain to fight against it. There were 
a chance to fight on the front 

The Chairman. Isn't it true that you also suffer under com- 
munism '. 

Air. AA^oLFF. I have no idea of that at all. As far as my knowd- 
edge — as far as my knowledge goes, I know of no instances where 
Jews have suffered under communism. 

The Chairman. Didn't you know that the Government of Soviet 
Russia was under a Communist dictatorship just as bad as a Fascist 
dictatorshi])? 

Mr. AVoLFF. I knew the Govermnent of the Soviet Union, as far 
as I knew, was elected by the people. I knew that there was a 
strong Communist Party in the Soviet Union. I was not aware of 
the existence of any dictatorshi]) in the Soviet Union. 

The Chairman. Didn't you regard Stalin as a dictator just like 
Mussolini and Hitler? 

Mr. AA'oLFF. Did I record him? 

The Chairman. Didn't you regard him as a dictator like you did 
Mussolini as a dictator? 

]\Ii'. AA'oLFF. Xo ; I did not. 

The Chairman. You do now? 



7788 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

INIr. Wolff. I do not. 

Tho CHAiR]\rAx. You doirt think he is a dictator? 

Mr. "Wolff. I do not. 

The Chairman. You don't think they have a dictatorship in 
Russia ? 

"Sir. Wolff. I do not. 

The Chairman. Do you think that is a democracy? 

Mr. Wolff. I don't know wliat type of oovernment it is, ]>nt I 
do know it is my opinion that it is not a dictatorsliip. 

The Chairman. Do you think it is a democracy ? 

Mr. Wolff. Xo: I don't think it is a democracy — I don't think 
it is a democracy, for instance, similar to — I ima<2,'ine tliat ynu are 
referring to and your standard is based on American democracy. I 
don't think it is that type of democracy. 

The Chairman. Is it any type of democracy? 

Mr. Wolff. I don't know. 

Mr. VooRHis. What do you think of the support of Germany by 
Russia ? 

Mr. Wolff. What is that ? 

Mr. VooRHis. What do you think of the support of Germany by 
Russia ? 

Mr. Wolff. At this time I would like to ask the committee a 
question. I received a subpena in court hist week asking me to 
appear before the House Committee Investigating T^n-American 
Activities, headed by Martin Dies, of Texas. I would like to know 
what my opinion of Soviet support of Germany or alleged support 
of Germany has to do with the subpena th.at was served on me. 

The Chairman. Well, you gave your opinion with reference to 
the democracy in Spain. I was trying to get your idea of what you 
meant by democracy. 

Mr. Wolff. I Avas more familiar with democracy in Spain than I 
was either in the Soviet I"^nion. since I had never been there. 

The Chairman. You had never been to Spain either. 

Mr. Wolff. When I got to Spain I was aware of it. 

The Chairman. But at the time you joined 

Mr. Wolff. There was no need for me to go to the Soviet Union 
to defend anytliing there. There was no struggle. All I knew there 
was in Spain a regularly elected government. 

The Chairman. Let us ])roceed. 

Mr. Matthews. In the event of a war between the United States 
and the Soviet Union, which side would you support ? 

Mr. Wolff. Is there such a war today? 

The Chair^man. You ceitainly would know. You went over and 
fought in Spain. 

Mr. Wolff. Is there such a war today? 

The Chairman. If there were such a war. 

Mr. Wolff. Is there a war today between the United States and 
Soviet Russia? 

The Chairman. If war should break out betAveen the United States 
and the Soviet Union, Avould you support this Government? 

Mr. AVoLFF. If war should break out between the United States 
and the Soviet Government, I would be glad to give my answer. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. Any questions? 



UN-A:\IERICAX PROrAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7789 

Mr. INIattheavs. Who paid your M-ay to Europe when you joined 
the Spaniyli Loyalist Army ^ 

Mr. WoLFT. 1, and I did. I raised the money from my friends, 
and I liad some myself. 

Mr. ]Maittifavs. Were any members of the Lincoln Battalion or 
of the Abraham Lineoln Briaade in Spain ever executed by a firing 
squad under your command? 

^Ir. Wolff. A firino- squad under my command? 

Mr. Matthf.ws. Yes. 

"Sir. Wolff. I never commanded a firino- squad. 

Mr. ^LvrTHEWs. Your answer is "no," is it. to the question? 

Mr. Wolff. I never connnanded a firino- squad. The answer is no. 
I connnanded the battalion. Command of a firing squad is beneath 
my dianity. 

]\Ir. ^Matthews. Were any American bovs ever executed in vour 
presence ? 

Mr. Wolff. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. Were any executed to your knoAvledge? 

Mr. Wolff'. American bovs? 

Mr. ]\L\TTHEws. Yes. 

]\Ir. Wolff. Xo. 

Mr. ]\L\TrHEWs. AVas there an.y case that came within your knowl- 
edge of a court martial of any of the members of the Lincoln Battalion 
or the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

]\Ir. Wolff. Court martial? Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. No court martials? 

Mr. Wolff. Xot that I know of. I want to state here 

The Chairmax. You have answered. 

Mr. Wolff. That for 2 years I was at the front. On very rare 
occasions was I in the rear for rest or leave. On those occasions 
I didn't interest myself in the rear-guard activities. There were no 
court martials conducted at the front. There were no executions 
conducted at the front. Therefore, I know nothing of these things. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Paul White belong to your battalion? 

!Mr. Wolff. He did. 

Mr. ]\L\tthews. Did you know him under the name of Jonnie 
Adams? 

]\Ir. Wolff. I knew him as Paul White in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever know him under any other name 
anywliere else t 

Sir. Wolff. Xo. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Did you know him personally? 

Mr. Wolff. Xo: merely as one of the soldiers in the outfit, 

Mr. Matthews. AVhat happened to him? 

Ml". Wolff. He Avas reported missing in action. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that while you were still in command of the 
battalion ? 

Mr. Wolff. That he was missing? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Wolff. Xo. I was not in command of the battalion at that 
time. 

]SIr. Matthews. Where were you at that time? 

Mr. Wolff. At that time I was in command of the machine-gun 
company. 



7790 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever have any connections or contacts with 
the Russian Secret Service? 

Mr. Wolff. No; I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. With the G. P. U.? 

Mr. Wolff. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. With the Soviet Military Intelligence ? 

Mr. Wolff. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know a young man named Ivan at brigade 
headquarters? 

Mr. Wolff. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have any contact with Robert Minor in 
Si:)ain ? 

Ml'. Wolff. I met Mr. Minor on one occasion. 

Mr. Matthews. In what capacity did you meet him on that 
occasion ? 

Mr. Wolff. Mr. Minor came to the front to visit the front line, as 
on other occasions Congressmen from America did. I remember once 
a nephew, I think, of President Roosevelt was up there; some mem- 
bers of Parliament from England, and a few authors and actors, 
and so on. 

The Chairman. All right ; you have answered the question. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what were Robert Minor's duties or activities 
in Spain? 

Mr. Wolff. As far as I know Robert Minor had no — wasn't acting 
in no official capacity in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Lt. Sid Levine? 

Mr. Wolff. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he in your battalion? 

Mr. Wolff. He was. 

Mr. Matthews. How long? 

Mr. Wolff. I remember him as being in the battalion on two dif- 
ferent occasions. I knew Sid Levine when he was in command of a 
machine-gun company where I was serving as a machine gunner — a 
soldier. I knew Sid Levine in the action of Teruel where he was on 
the battalion staff and again — I was at this time. I was commander 
of the machine-gun company. The last occasion I saw Sid Levine 
he was in command of a special machine-gun comj^an}- of the brigade, 
and I was in the command of the Lincoln Battalion. 

Mr. Mai-thews. Was he ever assigned to any later position that you 
knew about? 

Mr. Wolff. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Matthews. Or did any other work from that which j^ou men- 
tioned ? 

Mr. Wolff. No; not that I know of. 

Mr. JNIattheavs. Were you in command of the battalion during the 
Teruel action? 

Mr. Wolff. I was not. 

Mr. Matthews. Why not ? 

Mr. AVoLFF. The commander at the beginning of the Teruel action 
was Phillip Detro. His assistant was Captain Lamb. And I was 
attached to brigade staif at that time as a captain. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do as captain of the brigade staiff ? 

Mr. Wolff. I acted as a liaison man between the brigade and the 
various units of the brigade. 



UX-AMEKirAX rK()I'A(;A.\DA ACTIVITIES 7791 

-Mr. M.V'iTHEws. AVliere wvvo you with respect to the tiohtino- that 
was o()iiio- oil at Teniel ( 

^Ir. Wolff. I)uriii<i- the act ioii at Teniel I spent most of my time with 
the Enolish battalion, which was in a most crucial position in that 
action. 

Mi-. Matihfavs. Have you <>ot your American passport? 

^Ir. ^\'oLFF. It was taken from me when I arrived in America. 

Mr. MA'rriiKws. Now, what emi)loyment have j^on received since you 
returned to the United States^ 

Mr. ^^'()LFF. I have Avorked for a Mr. Baruch on a cooperative enter- 
prise which failed. 

^Ir. ^Iatthews. Have von ever used any other name than that of 
Milton Woltf > 

Mr. Wolff. I have not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been on relief? 

Mr. AVoLFF. I have not. 

Mr. ^Matthews. What is your p(jsition now? 

Mr. Wolff. As to employment ? 

^Ir. Matthew s. Yes. 

Mr. Wolff. At the ]:)resent time I am beino- paid by the Dies com- 
mittee. I have no employment other than that. 

Mr. Matthews. How lone: have you been unemployed ? 

^Ir. Wolff. Well, irreo-ularl3\ I don't know — every now and then 
we would renew this cooperative enterprise. 

]Mr. Matthews. What is the name of the cooperative enterprise? 

Mr. Wolff. It was called Brico and Nico. 

]Mr. Matthews. What is the nature of the enterprise? 

Mr. Wolff. One was the New York Cooperative Oroanization. and 
the other one was the Brighton Cooperative Organization. The nature 
of it was to bring dairy products to women at low prices. 

My. Matthews. Have you any title in the organization known as the 
Friends of Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

^Ir. Wolff. I have not. 

Mr. ]\rATTHEWs. Have you ever had? 

Mr. Wolff. I have not. 

]Mr. Matthews. For the veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. AVolff. I am the national connnander of the Veterans of the 
Aliraham Lincoln Brigade. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Do you hold that title now? 

Mr. AA'oLFF. I do. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. AAlio appointed you to that position ? 

Mr. AA'oLFF. I was elected at our third national convention in 
Deceuiber of 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. AA^as a majority of the membership of the Lincoln 
Battalion under your command meinbers of the Communist Party? 

]Mr. AA^oLFF. I would not know about that, since I never had any 
occasion to investigate their ])olitical beliefs. 

Mv. Ma-ithews. Do you receive a salarv in connection with your 
position as national connnander of the A^eterans of the Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. AA'oLFF. I do not. 

Ml-. ]\rATTHEWs. Do you liavc a copy of the bvlaws of the or- 
ganization known as the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. AA^oLFF. AVith me? 



7792 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews, Yes. 

Mr. Wolff. 1 liave not. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you supply the committee with one? 

Mr. Wolff. We might be able to. if we liuve it. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the organization which was known as the 
Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade still exist? 

Mr. Wolff. It does not. 

Mr. Matthews. Were its affairs merged in with those of the Vet- 
erans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Wolff. Might say that their affairs disappeared and the 
veterans took up from that point. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you take over their books? 

Mr. Wolff. We did' not. 

Mr. Matthews. In what bank do you have your — the account of 
your organization, the veterans' organization? 

Mr. Wolff. I am not familiar with that phase of the activities 
of the organization. 

Mr. Lynch. Mr. Wolff, did you graduate from high school in 
Brooklyn ? 

Mr. Wolff. In Brooklyn? 

Mr. Lynch. Yes. 

Mr. Wolff. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. What was the name of it, please? 

Mr. Wolff. The Utrecht High School; I think that is it. 

Mr. Lynch. And I did not get the employment that you had 
after your high-school education and before you went to Spain. 

Mr. Wolff. How did I — I didn't liear you. 

Mr. Lynch. What was your em])loyment after your high-school 
education and before you went to Spain ? 

Mr. Wolff. Immediately that I left high school I Avent to art 
school and I studied commercial art for a few months. I don't 
know exactly how many. After which I was unemployed for a 
short period and then I — my family was on relief at that time, and 
I was sent to a C. C. C. camp for 10 months. 

Mr. Lynch. And then did you go from the C. C. C. camp over 
to Spain? 

Mr. Wolff. No. I came from the C. C. C. camp and again T was 
unemployed for a short time and I finally secured employment. I 
believe it was an importing and exporting house — millinery goods 
or something, where I was the shipping clerk. 

Mr. Lynch. And did you — what books did you read in the study 
that you had between democracy and fascism? 

Mr. Wolff. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. Lynch. That led you to your o])inion that you have expressed 
here in your examination? 

Mr. Wolff. I didn't hear the beginning. 

Mr. Lynch. What books did you read on that subject of the strug- 
gle between democracy and fascism Avhich led you to the opinion you 
exj)ressed here a few moments ago? 

Mr. Wolff. I remember I read what ]3articularly impressed me, 
was Jay Allen's account of what happened in Spain at the outbreak 
of the war. I don't remember reading any books. When Jay xA-llen 
described the massacre of Spanish people 

Mr. Lynch. And did you read anything else ? 

Mr. AVolff. No. I read in the newspapers at the time. 



UN-AMERICAN I'KOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7793 

.Mr. Lynch. How niaiiy wort.' in your battalion? 

Mr. Wolff. Well, tlie lunnber varied. I think the hi<^hest num- 
ber we ever hit was TOO and the lowest about 350. 

Mr. Lynch. And you spoke about losinc; — you lost all your per- 
sonal ix'loiiiiing's? 

Mr. Wolff. That is right, 

^Ir. Lynch. Were you a prisoner? 

-Mr. Wolff. No. I lost my belono-infrs when I was — when the bat- 
talion was sui-rounded on one particular occasion and scattered and 
it was necessary for me to swim the Ebro River to get back to our 
lines. 

Mr. Lynch. And at the time you sailed, did you know that you 
"were going to S})ain to tight t 

^\r. Wolff. I did. 

Mr. Ly'nch. And what did you say in your passport application 
that you were going to Spain for^ 

Mr. AVoLFF. I did not say I was going to Spain. 

Mi-. Lynch. What did you say you were going to Europe for, or 
^oing alu'oad for ( 

Mr. Wolff. I don"t know. Perhaps to study art. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you not say you were going to Johannesburg, 
South Africa, to visit an uncle for 3 months? 

.Mr. Wolff. That might have been it. 

Mr. Lyxch. You knew tliat was a perjury at the time? 

^Ir. AVoLFF. No: I didn't think it was. 

^fr. Lynch. You swore to the affidavit, didn't you, when you got 
your passport? 

Mr. AA\)LFF. I don't know that I did. 

Mr. Ly^nch. Do you recall that vou took an oath that you would 
not travel in Spain when you got your passport? 

Mr. AA^)iJ'^F. No: I don't recall such an oath. 

Mr. Lynch. But if vou said that vou were going — vou don't have 
iin uncle in Johannesburg, South Africa? 

^Ir. AVoLFF. I have. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you have any intention of visiting him when 
you got that passport? 

Mr. AA'oLFF. AAlien I got the passport ? 

Mr. Lynch. Yes. 

Mr. AA'oLFF. No: I did not. 

Mr. Lyxch. That is all. 

]Mr. Matthews. That next witness is Tony DeMaio. 

^li'. ."^chwab. Just a moment. 

]\Ir. AA'oLFF. If the Chair ])leases, I would like to further — what 
Fred Keller said about A'ernon Selby. Vernon Selby on one occa- 
sion, I believe, deserted with Honeycombe and was brought back 
under guard to our battalion. 

I liad a talk with Selby at that time and he agreed that it was 
the wrong thing to do; that he had gotten panic-stricken because 
it did appear that at that particular time that as though the war 
was over. It was during the retreat on the Ebro and he was hot- 
footing it for the border. However, when Selby came back with 
the rest of the prisoners, and I want to state for the record in denial 
of wliat Honeycombe said, that we would have had no use for the 
prisoners at the front as unarmed men. There was no purpose in 



7794 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ArTIVITIES 

ilieir comino; up tliere if they were niiarmed. And at that time all 
the prisoners were given arms. 

Selby, because of his vahiable experience and knowledge of in- 
juries and so forth, was used by mj^self as an observer and a scout 
for the battalion. 

Wlien tlie battalion was surrounded and cut off 450 of us on a hill 
outside of Grandesa — when nightfall came it was Vernon Selby 
that led the battalion off that hill and through the Fascist lines up 
to a certain point. He was a very exhausted man at that time, as we 
all were. We had been on the run for several days. The battalion 
ran irito a German auxiliarv unit of the Fascist Army. 

The battalion was scattered at that time and only 60 of the bat- 
talion got across the river. Verncm Selby was not one of those 60. 
Except for those who were captured and were spared by Franco 
and Avere imprisoned and have since returned, the rest are missing 
and considered dead, which is all we can do. And Selby was one 
of those. 

Mr. Matthews. I want to ask you one question. INIr. Wolff, you 
say Selby and the other men were arrested for an alleged desertion. 
They were given arms when they were brought back to the front? 

Mr. Wolff. When they returned to the front they were given arms, 
as every man at the front was given. 

INIr. Matthews. So that Honeycombe was at the front at that 
time, wasn't he? 

Mv. Wolff. He didn't stay there. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Well, was he or was he not? 

Mr. Woi^F. All right. I Avill further exaggerate — I will further 
exp]am. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Was he at the front ? 

Mr. Wolff. He was not. And may I ex])lain — may I explain? 

The Chairman. Explain what? 

Mr. Wolff. The time that these deserters came back we Avere out- 
side of the toAvn of Coberra. We were organizing our battalion. We 

had gotten new men from Avho had just recuperated from 

their Avounds. These deserters Avere brought back and some hundred 
Spanish conscripts. None of the men had any arms at all at this 
time because they had all been lost in the previous retreat. A ship- 
ment of brand-neAv rifles came in — about 500 rifles, and every man 
AA'ho Avas in the battalion was given arms. 

From that point Ave Avent up to the front. Honeycombe did not 
go up. 

Mr. Mattiieavs. You just testified that Honeycombe did go to 
the front Avith arms. 

Mr. Wolff. I attest to the cleverness of the questioner, Mr. Mat- 
theAvs. 

Mr. Lynch. What Avas the rank of Mr. Selby ? 

Mr. Wolff. What is that ? 

Mr. Ttnch. What Avas the rank of ^Ir. Selby? 

Mr. Wolff. Mr. Selby at that time Avas a sergeant. 

The Chairman. All right, bring your next witness. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Tony DeMaio. 

Mr. Schavab. Mv. Chairman, do 3'ou think Ave Avill be finished with 
both of these Avitnesses today ? 

The Chairman. I don't knoAv. It depends on how long it takes. 



UN-AMERICAN rUOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7795 

TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY E. DeMAIO 

The Chairman. Raise yom- i'i<>lit liaml. Do yo\i solemn!}' swear 
to teli the truth, the whoU' truth, and nothino- but the trutli, so help 
3-011 (tocI '. 

:Mr. Di:.Mak). I do. 

Mr. MAiriiKws. '\\'ill you ])lease o-ive your full name? 

^Ir. DlMaio. My fidl name is Anthony E. De]Mai(j. 

]Mr. Matthews. Spell the last name? 

Mr. DeMaio. D-e-M-a-i-o. 

!Mr. Matthews. ^I-a-i-o^ 

:Mr. DeMaio. That is rioht. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever used any other variations of that 
name '. 

Mr. DeMaio. (Xo answer.) 

^Ir. MATiinnxs. Have you ever spelled it, for example, D?Mayo? 

ilr. De^Lvio. I just spelled that "D-i" because the committee in 
servinjr the subpena spelled it "D-i'' and I didn't want to o;ive the 
committee the reasons for raisin<>' anv question of doubt. That is 
why I spelled it ''D-i.'" -D-e" is the reii'ular spellino-. 

^Ir. ^Iatthews. Have you ever o()ne under any other name for 
any purpose other than the name of Anthony DeMaio ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I Mould like to state, ]Mr. Chairman, that I have 
been called in here for testimony reoardino- my activities in the 
Abraham Lincoln Brifjade, and that any questions involving my 
personal life be kept out of it. 

That is not the j^urpose of this conmiittee. 

The Chairman. Well, he is askino- you a question, whether you 
ever went mider any other name besides the name that you have now. 
Is this vour ti'ue name '. 

Mr. DeMaio. That is my true name. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Where were you born? 

Mr. De^NIaio. I was born in Hartford, Conn. 

Mr. ^Matthews. When '. 

Mr. DeMaio. February 21. 1014. 

]\Ir. Matthews. When you went to Spain — did you go to Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I went to Spain. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Did vou travel on an American passport? 

^\r. DeMaio. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. You did? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did. 

^Ii-. Matthews. Under what name did you get yoiir American 
passport ? 

Mr. De^Iaio. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. What is the question? 

Mr. ^Fatihews. I asked the witness under what name he got 
liis American passport when he went to Spain. He declines to 
answer. 

The Chmkman. Do vou decline to answer? 

Mr. De:Maio. I do. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answer that question. 
Do vou still decline? 

Mr. De^Faio. T still decline. 

The Chaikmax. All right, proceed. 



7796 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Did you get your passport under the name of 
Anthony DeMaio? 

Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer that (question? 

Mr. DeMaio. I decline. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answer the question. 

^Slr. DeMaio. I decline. 

The Chairman. You still decline? 

Mr. DeMaio. I decline. 

Mr. Matthews. But your testimou}' is that you did travel on an. 
American passport, is that correct? 

Mr. DeMaio. That is my testimony. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Were you ever in any of the service branches of the 
Ignited States Armv or the Xavy or Marine Corps or National 
Guard? 

Mr. DeMaio. Mr. Chairman, that is still goino- back into my own 
personal history, which has no bearing- on this investigation. 

The Chairman. Do you decline to answer that question? 

Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question pertaining 

The Chairman. This particular question? 

Mr. DeMaio. I do. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answer. Do you still 
decline ? 

:\Ir. DeMaio. I still decline. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

INIr. ISIatthews. You did travel on a false passport when you 
went to Spain, didn't you, Mr. DeMaio? 

Mr. DeMaio. I still "refuse. 

The Chairman. You have covered that. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

My. DeIMaio. I am not. 

IVIr. Matthews. Were }'ou ever a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. DeINIaio. I was. 

Mr. ^Matthews. When did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't recall the exact date. It Mas when I re- 
turned from Spain. 

Mr. iMATTiTEws. Were you a member of the Communist Party 
at any time before you went to Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was not. 

The Chairman. The Chair wants to make an announcement. We 
are sitting as a subcommittee with the chairman, ]\Ir. Mason, of 
Illinois, and Mr. Voorhis of California. 

Mr. Lynch. Mr. Chairman, you will note from the time Mr. De- 
Maio commenced his testimony to this present moment we were 
sitting as a full committee. 

The Chairman. A quorum was present. Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you pet out of the Communist Party? 

Mr. DeIMaio. I don't recall tlie exact time. It was just a dropping 
aAvay jirocess, that is all. 

Mr. Matthews. Quite recently? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. It is about 6 months at least. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ex]3elled? 

Mr. De]Maio. I w;',s not expelled. 



r.VAMERlCAX rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7797 

Mr. Maitiifavs. Were you oivtMi ]>eninssion to drop out? 

Mr. DkMaio. No. I just (li-oj)i)e(l. 

!^Ir. Matthkws. Were you ever assioned to work in any part of 
New Jeisey for tlie Communist Party? 

^Ir. Dr^TAio. I was not. 

Ml'. Mattukws. Did you ever do any work for the Communist 
Partv in tlie State of New Jersey? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Ml'. Matihiavs. Weren't you an official of the Communist Party 
during the seamen's strike in the spring of 1936? 

Mr. De^Iaio. I had no connection with the seamen's strike in New 
Jersey in 1936. I don't even recall if I was in New Jersey at the 
time. 

]Mi'. ]Matthkws. Did you ever work as a merchant seaman? 

Mr. De]Maio. I never did. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Did you assist in the raising of funds for the 
strike committee in the strike of 1936? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't recall whether I might have or not in one 
way or another, but not as any particular job. 

yiv. ^Matthews. Do you recall whether j'ou had any official con- 
nection with the strike committee? 

Mr. De]SIaio. I had no official connection with the strike committee. 

]\Ir. ^Matthews. Do you remember the names of any of the mem- 
bers of the >trike committee? 

]\Ir. De^Iaio. I don't remember any of their names. 

Mr. Matthews. Did yoii know two men by the names of Panchelli 
and Brown ? 

Mr. De]SIaio. 1 don't know. 

;Mr. Matthews. Who were arrested in connectiim Avith that strike, 
and are .serving terms in Trenton. N. J. ? 

Mr. De^NIaio. I never heard of the men before, and I never knew 
them. 

Mr. Matthews. It doesn't refresh 3'our recollection to state that 
thej' are serving 15-year terms in the State prison at Trenton? 

Ml'. DeMaio. Doesn't refresh my memory at all. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Did that case have anything to do with your leav- 
ing the State of New Jersey ? 

Mr. De]Maio. Had nothing to do with my leaving the State. 

]SIr. ^Matthews. AVhen did you enlist for service in the Interna- 
tional Brigade ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Will you repeat that question? 

]Mr. ^Matthews. AVhen did 3011 enlist for service in the Interna- 
tional Brigade, in Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. My service in Sixain began in Albacete, January 6. 

^Ir. Matthews. No. When did you enlist — when did you volun- 
teer to go across from this side ? 

'Mr. DvMato. I didn't volunteer from tliis side. 

Mr. Matthews. When di'l you go to Spa.in? 

I\Ir. DeMaio. Sometime in December 1936. 

?\lr. ^Matthews. From what port did you sail? 

Mr. DeMaio. I sailed from New York. 

Ml'. ^Matthews. On what ship? 

Mr. DeMato. On the Norniandie. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the date of the sailing? 



7798 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't recall. 

Mr. Matthews. December 1936 on the Norinandle? 

Mr. DeMakx That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In what class? 

Mr. DeMaio. Third class. 

Mr. Matthews. Was your name listed on the passenger list? 

Mr. DeMaio. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the name on the passenger list? 

Mr. DeMaio. Mr. Chairman, this is bringing up the same question 
time and time again. I previously stated 

The Chairman. Do you decline to state what name you were 
listed under in the passenger list? 

Mr. Schwab. That isn't the question. 

The Chairman. What ? 

Mr. Schwab. That isn't what he declines to answer. 

Mr. Matthews. 1 asked him what name he was listed under on 
the Nonnandie in December 1936 when he sailed to Europe? 

The Chairman. You decline to answer that? 

Mr. DeMaio. I decline. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to do so and you decline. 
Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it the same name you used on the passport 
which you fraudulently obtained? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know whether it was the same name or 
not ? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Under what name were you enlisted in the Loyalist 
Army in Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Under my own name. 

INIr. Matthews. What did you do with your passport when you 
reached Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I turned it over to some one. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever get it back ? 

Mr. DeMaio. The passport was lost at the front. 

Mr. Matthews. To whom did you turn it over in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't recall his name. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you apply for your passjwrt as to the 
purpose of your going to Europe? Did you state that you were 
going to Spain in your application? 

Mr. DeINIaio. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a notation stamped on your passport 
that it was not valid for travel in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. You decline to answer that? 

Mr. DeMaio. I might add that at the time I went to Spain that 
there 

The Chairman. Isn't it a fact that all passports were marked 
"Not valid for travel in Spain"? 

Mr. Schwab. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the photographs — 
they have got enough pictures now, I think I can be unmolested for 
a minute. 

Tlie Chairman. All right, gentlemen. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7799 

]Mr. ScinvAB. Never having been at the front, those things annoy 
nie. 

The CiiATiniAx. No question about that, is there, about all the pass- 
ports being nuirked ''not valid for travel in Spain"? 

]Mr. DeMaio. I don't know about all of them. 

The Chairman. Do you object to answering that so far as you were 
concerned 

Mr. De^Iaio. I don't know anything about that. I refuse to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Matthews. In what year was your passport issued? 

Mr. Df.Mak). T refuse to answei- any questions pertaining to my 
passport on my constitutiontil grounds. 

Mr. Matthews. "When you sailed for Spain, was it your intention 
to join the Loyalist Army? 

Mr. De^Iaio. I hadn't that intention. 

Mr. Matthews. That is, when you left the United States you had 
not intended to join the Loyalist Army? 

Mr. De:Maio. ± didn't. 

Mr. ]\L\tthews. Did vou go directly to Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. Xo; I didn't. 

Mr. ALvtthews. Well, of course, you know the Spanish civil war 
did not break out until but a few months before that time. 

Mr. De^Laio. That is right. 

Mr. ]\L\TTiiEws. You did not go directly to Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not go directly to Spain. 

Mr. ^NIatiiieaa's. How long after you arrived in Europe before you 
went to Spain? 

Mr. DeAIaio. Very short time. 

Mr. ]\L\TTHEAVs. How long would you say? 

Mr. De]\Lvio. a matter of a couple of weeks about. 

Mr. i\L\TTHEWS. Was it long enough to go to Moscow and then 
back to Spain? 

]Mr. DeMaio. I don't know what transportation is like to Moscow 
and ])ark. 1 couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. ]\L^TTHEws. AVell. it depends on how you travel. You could 
get there in a few days if you went by air. 

The Chairman. Did you go to Moscow before you went to Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not go to Moscow and could not. 

Mr. Matthews. In what countries did you travel in Europe before 
you went to Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. Just France and Spain. 

Mr. ]NL\TTiiEws. What occupation did you give on your passport 
application? 

^fr. DeMaio. Refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. JNIatthews. What was the date of your arrival in Spain? 

Mr. De^Laio. I don't recall the exact date. It was sometime. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the month? 

^Iv. DeMaio. It was January 1937. 

The CHAHnrAX. I want to clear up one thing. You have refused 
to answer certain questions. Do you refuse on the ground to answer 
those questions might tend to incriniiiuite you? 

Mr. De^Iaio. Not at all. I said that I do not recall the exact date 
that I landed in Spain. 

94931 — 40— vol. 13 9 



7800 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Lynch, That isn't an answer to your question. 

The Chairman. I am asking you this : You have refused to answer 
certain questions heretofore about your pass]iort. Do I understand 
that the reason for your refusal is it may tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. DeMaio. It is within my constitutional ri<>ht to refuse to 
answer the question. 

The Chairman. I am trying to get you to specify whether your 
refusal to answer is because you fear that it might tend to incrimi- 
nate you? Is that the constitutional ground upon which you rely 
in your refusal to answer the questions? 

Mr. DeMaio. I am not giving any reasons beyond what I have 
given before, that it is within my constitutional rights not to answer 
any questions that I don't want to. 

The Chairman. You mean in other words then, you don't put it 
on the ground that it might tend to incriuiinate you? 

Mr. Schwab. May I discuss it with my client for a moment? 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

(Inaudible discussion between Mr. Schwab and the witness.) 

The Chairman. I am asking you, what is the constitutional 
ground? Is it that you fear that it may tend to incriminate you in 
any way? 

Mr. DeMaio. Yes ; that is it. 

The Chairman. Then he shall not be required to answer the ques- 
tion with reference to the passport. 

Mr. Lynch. Well, Mr. Chairman, I thiuk he should be required to 
answer the question in regard to his passport because the statute gives 
him immunity. 

Mr. Schwab. May I speak on that question, Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. Yes. We are talking about the passport. 

Mr. Schwab. I don't think in the first place it has anything to do 
with the purpose of this committee, but I don't thiuk any committee 
can take away this man's constitutional right to ivfuse to testify on 
the ground that he has given. There is nothing in the statute — 
enabling statute dealing with congressional bodies which takes away 
that right. He stated it, and I don't believe we should waste any 
more time on it. 

Mr. Lynch. If the gentleman wants me to I will get him the law. 
I will send upstairs and get it. There is a statute of the United 
States which gives a right to a committee when a man refuses to an- 
swer to compel him to answer, and he doesn't have any right to refuse 
to answer on the ground his testimony might tend to incriminate 
him. He is still required to answer it. You have the same precise 
law before the Communications Commision and the Interstate Com- 
merce Commission and other Government agencies. 

The Chairman. Well, it may be that is true, that he has immunity 
when testifying before a conunitree of Congress, and that you could 
require him to do so. However, the committee has hesitated in the 
past to require any man to answer a question on that ground. 
Anyway we will carry along. Go ahead. 

Mr. Matthews. Who furnished you with the funds to travel to 
Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was working at the time just previous to that. I 
had my own money. 



UN-A:MERICAN PUOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7801 

Mr. Matiiiews. A\'lieii you reached Spain, to Avhat duty were you 
assi«»iied '^ 

Mv. DeMaio. I was a soldier in the infantry. 

jNfr. MArriiEws. Where did you jjo? 

Mr. DeMaio. Went to a trainin<>' camp. 

^fr. Matthews. Which trainln<; camp was that? 

;Mr. DeMaio. Villejara. 

^fr. Maittiews. How loii^ wei-e you in the trainino; camp? 

Mr. DeMaio. About a month. 

Mr. Matheavs. And then did you report at the front? 

^[r. DeMaio. Sent to the front. 

Mr. Matthews. How ]on*>^ were you at the front? 

Mr. DeMaio. We were at the front for the entire campaign. 

]Mr. Matthews. How many daj's was that? 

Mr. DeMaio. The exact days. I think it was something like 120 
days straight. 

^Ir. Matthj:ws. You were tliere at the front during the entire 
120 days i 

Mr. DeMaio. That is right. 

^Ir. Matthews. And then where did you go? 

]Mr. DeMaio, Went on rest. 

Mr. MATTirEw^s. What was your rank in the army? 

Mr. De^NIaio. Sohlier at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever promoted? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was. 

Mr. ^Matthews. To what rank? 

^Iv. DeMaio. To sergeant. 

]SIr. Matthews. Were you ever promoted beyond that ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was. 

]\rr. Matthews. To what rank? 

Mr. DeMaio. To lieutenant, junior grade. 

^Ir. ^Matthews. Was there any other promotion after that? 

Mr. DeMaio. Lieutenant, senior grade, or rather lieutenant, because 
the lower rank was cut out. 

Mr. Matthews. And did you hold that rank at the time you left 
Spaing 

Mr. De Maio. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. In what other engagements were you at the fronts 

Mr. DeM.a.io. I was in the engagement of Brunete and the Ebro 
offensive. 

Mr. Matthews. AVere you cNcr assigned to any duties behind the 
front ? 

^Ir. DeMaio. No permanent duties. 

Mr. Matthew's. Any temporary duties? 

Mr. DeMaio. Well, I had been in the rear. 

Mi-. ^Iatfuews. AVere you ever assigned to Camp Luukas? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was never assigned there; no. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. AA^ere you ever there? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was there. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. AA'hat were your duties there? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was recujx'rating from a wound. 

Mr. Matthews. AA'as Canij) Luukas a concentration camp for 
prisoners? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never considered myself as a prisoner. 



7802 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Was it? 
Mr. DeMaio. It was not. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you placed in charge of the Anglo-American 
section? 

Mr. DeMaio. No ; I was not in charge of them. 
Mr. Matthews. Did you know William C. McCuistion in Spain ? 
Mr. DeMaio. I heard of him. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Did you ever meet him personally? 
The Chairman. He asked you if you knew him ? 
Mr. DeMaig. I knew him. 

Mr. Matthews Did you know him personally? 
Mr. DeMaio. I knew him. 
The Chairman. You knew him in Spain? 
Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have any conversations with him? 
Mr. DeMaio. He was at Camp Luukas with me at the time. 
Mr. Matthews. He was with you at Camp Luukas. What was 
your purpose at Camp Luukas? 

Mr. DeMaio. We certainly weren't there for the same reasons. 
Mr. Matthews. Why was he there? 
Mv. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

The Chairman. You say McCuistion was in the same camp and 
for the same purpose with you ? 
Mr. DeMaio. I did not say that. 

Mr. Matthews. He said a diiferent purpose. Why was he there? 
Mr. DeMaio. I never asked him. 
Mv. IMatthews. Do you know why he was there ? 
Mr. DeMaio. I don't know why he was there. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know his purpose was diiferent from 
yours then? 

Mr. DeINIaio. He wasn't wounded. I know that. 
Mr. Matthews. Wasn't he in charge of the military section of the 
Anglo-Americans there ? 
Mr. DeMaio. McCuistion? 
Mr. Matthews. Yes. 
Mv. DeINIaio. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he to your knowledge demoted or disrated 
lor assisting prisoners in the camp to escape ? 
Mr. DeMaio. Don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Matthews. Were any of the inmates of Camp Luukas placed 
there for the purposes of waiting for repatriation? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know if they were sent there for that pur- 
pose or not. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you at Camp Luukas ? 
Mr. DeMaio. About 3 weeks, I think. 
Mr. Matthews. And was that entirely for recuperation ? 
Mr. DeMaio. For recuperation purposes. 

Mr. Matthews. Were there any men at Camp Luukas who were 
there because they were labeled as dangerous or destructive or dis- 
ruptive? 

Mr. DeIVIaio. I never inquired as to the reason why others were 

there. I was there myself for recu])eration purposes and that is all. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, don't you know of your own knowledge that 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES ygQS 

the majority of the men at Camp Lmikas were sent there because 
they objected to the tactics of the Conniuuiist Party in Spain ? 

Mr. DkMaio. I do not know of any such reason. 

Mr. Matthews. Because they resented the interference of political 
connnisars and other politicians in army affairs? 

Mr. DeMaio. I repeat, Mr. Chairnuui. Avhy I was at Camp Luukas, 
and I do iu)t know why others were there. 

The Chair:max. All ri<iht. 

Mr. DeMaio. I think that answers the question on that sufficiently. 

Mr. Matthews. AVere any Americans at Camp Luukas removed 
from there to Albacete ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know of any others who were removed? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know of any others. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any who were removed from Camp 
Luukas to Albacete for the purpose of execution I 

Mr, DeMaio. I do not. 

Mr. Mattheavs, Or Chinchilla for the purpose of execution ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I do not, 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Did you superintend the removal of any persons 
from Camp Luukas? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And did you know Maj. Allen Johnson? 

Mr. DeMaio. I knew him. 

Mr. Mattheavs. In what capacity did you know him ? 

Mr. De^Lmo. Only that he was there. I never served with him or 
under him, so I don't know him personally. I know of him. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Was he a former officer in the Regular Army of the 
United States? 

Mr. De^L\io. I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. To refresh your memory don't you remember numer- 
ous speeclies in which he talked of his experiences in the Fifteenth and 
Twenty-Seventh Infantries of the United States Army ? 

]\Ir. DeMato. I never listened to any of his speeches. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Did he make speeches? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know if he did or not. 

Mr. Matthea\'S. At this time you were given an official position as 
brigade police officer for the American section of the fifteenth brigade, 
were you not ? 

Mr, De^Lmo. That is not .so. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any police officers who were as- 
signed to special tasks of that sort? 

Mr. DeMaio. I do not. 

Mr, jNIatthews. Do you know Lieutenant Ehrlich ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know any one in Spain by that name? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Captain Cohn ? 

]Mr. DeMaio. I do not. 

!Mr. ^Iatthews. Did you know anv police officer by that name? 

;Mr. De^Iaio, The only police officers that I can think of are Spanish 
police officers. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Albert Wallach? 



7804 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. DeMaio. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear the name of Albert Wallach? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not ; never did. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you in charge of the prison at Castle de Fells ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was never in charge of the prison at Castle de Fells. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever at the prison at Castle de Fells? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was never at the prison at Castle De Fells. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see Albert Wallach? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know. I might have passed him. I didn't 
know him so I couldn't say whether I saw him or not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Paul AVliite ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not know Paul White. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear of Paul White ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I heard of him. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you read the notice given to the Lincoln 
Battalion of his execution ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I heard of it but I didn't 

The Chairman. ^AHiat was his answer? 

]\Ir. Matthews. That you heard of the execution? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know whether it was termed "an execution" 
or what it was. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you said you heard of it. 

Mr. DeMaio. I heard of him. 

Mv. Mati'hews. Well, I asked you if you heard of his execution, 
or if you read the notice, and you said you heard of it. 

Mr. DeMaio. Just a moment. 

Mr. Matthews. Yf)U heard of Paul Wliite's execution? 

Mr. DeINIaio. I did not hear of it in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. You heard of it after you came back to the United 
States ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I heard — some newspapers printed something to that 
effect. I never heard of it at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you get that answer ? 

Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mv. Matthews. It differs from your previous answer. 

Mr. DeMaio. It does not. 

Mr. Schwab. I suggest Mr. Mattliews, you don't start a personal 
altercation here. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize that photograph as being any 
person you ever saw in Spain ? 

(Handing photograph to the witness.) 

Mr. DeMaio. It looks like Carey Grant, the movie actor. 

Mr. Lynch. Ask him to answer the question. 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

(]\Ir. Matthews handing the picture to the witness again.) 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know him. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't recognize these pictures as being Albert 
Wallach? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't recognize him. 

Mr. ]SIatthews. And you never heard of the name of Albert Wal- 
lach in Spain, is that correct? 

IVfr. DeMaio. Never heard of him. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. About 2 years. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7805 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know nmny of the men in the Abraham 
Lincohi Brioacle, so-called^ 

Mr. DeMaio. I didn't i^now all of them. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. in what capacity did you know Maj. Allen 
Johnson? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never knew him at the — in the Abraham Lincoln 
Brijiade. 

Mr. Ma'itiiews. Did you know him in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I knew him as an officer in Spain, that is all. 

Mr. MArrHEws. Did you ever deliver any prisoners to Maj. Allen 
Johnson in Spain? 

Mr. De^NIaio. I never did. 

Mr. Matthews. Of what was Maj. Allen Johnson an officer? You 
said you knew him as an officer? 

Mr. DeMaio. At the })ase in Tarrajiona. 

Mr. Matthews. You did kn<nv him at Tarrao;ona ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I knew he was thei-e. I didn't say I knew him there. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see him in Tarragona ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I saw him once. I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. What were you doing in Tarragona at the time 
you met Maj. Allen Johnson? 

Mr. DeMaio. I believe I was at Camp Luukas at the time, and it 
was a short run over there, and I took a trip over there to see some 
of the men, and I saw him while I was there. 

Mr. jMatthews. And you took prisoners from Camp Luukas to 
Tarragona and delivered them to Maj. Allen Johnson, did you not? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know of any men who were executed in 
Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Xo. did not. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. "Were there any disciplinary cases that were of such 
seriousness that executions resulted, to your knowledge? 

Mr. MeMaio. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear of any? 

Mr. DeMaio. Never heard of any direct cases of execution; no. 

Mr. Matthews. Except tlie one of Paul White to which you testi- 
fied? Is that the only one? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not testify that I knew he was executed. 

Mr. Matthews. No. only that you had heard of it. Did you know 
of any others who were executed? 

Mi\ DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever meet George Mink in Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Never heard of him. 

Mr. ^Matthews. You never heard of the name of George Mink? 

Mr. DeMaio. Never did. 

Mr. jSIatthews. Did you know George Hirsch in Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Never heard of him. 

Mr. Matthews. You never heard of tluit name either? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Did vou know an American by the name of Moran ? 

Mr. De:Maio. No, I don't. 



7806 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Speak a little louder, please. It is very hard to 
hear. 

Mr. DeMaio, I never heard of him. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever in Barcelona? 

Mr. DeMaio. I had been there; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do yon recall whether or not yon were in Barce- 
lona on May 2, 1938 ? 

Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. That was the day following the May Day cele- 
bration, to refresh your recollection. 

Mr. DeMaio. Then I wasn't there. 

Mr. Matthews. You were not in Barcelona on May 2, 1938? 

Mr. DeMaio. I was not there around any May Day. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever frequent the cafes on the Rambla de 
Catalonia in Barcelona? 

Mr. DeMaio. Mr. Chairman, may I ask just what all that this 
here is about. Certainly if a man went to Barcelona in time of war 
on leave he visited a cafe. 

The Chairman. That is just what he was asking you. Go ahead. 

Mr. DeMaio. Then, but t ask what the purpose of this question is. 
Certainly, I visited some of these cafes but what has that to do with 
the investigation? 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Did you meet George IVIink or George Hirsch m 
any of the cafes. 

iSIr. DeMaio. I told you previously I never heard or saw these 
individuals. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever sit on a court martial to try two 
Finnish-Americans in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never sat on a court martial in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you sit on a court martial to try a Canadian 
and Finn for drunkenness? 

Mr. DeMaio. This is getting ridiculous. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. You will find out how material 
it is later on. You are now being afforded an opportunity to 
answer certain questions. 

Mr. DeMaio. No; I don't know anything about that. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the name of Paul Oskar? 

Mr. DeISIaio. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever heal- that name in Spain? 

Mr. DejNIaio. I never heard it in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear the name of George Niemin 
in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear the name of George Kulksinem? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never did. 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. You never heard of those three men ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never heard of those men. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear that two Finnish-Americans 
and one Canadian Finn were executed on the beach in Barcelona? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never heard of this. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7807 

]\rr. INlA'rriiKws. Did you know a ninn by the n:iinc of Sullivan 
■who Avas a political commissar in the Irish-American Battalion? 

Mr. Dr.M.Mo. 1 never heard of an Irish-American Battalion. 

Mr. Matihews. Did you know a man named Sullivan who was 
a political connnissar connected with any of the sections of the Loyalist 
Army ? 

Mr, DeMaio. I never heard of him. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Louis Oliver? 

Mr. DeMaio. The name sounds familiar. I can't place him. 

]Mr, ^Matthews. Well, you placed him under arrest once, didn't 
yon ? 

]Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. jNIatthews. In Barcelona, didn't you place Louis Oliver under 
arrest ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Xo. 

ISIr. ]MAn"iiEWS. Did you ever go aboard the American steamship 

^ir. DeMaio. I don't recall ever having done so; I might have — 
I think I went aboard one American steamer there; 

^Ir. ]Matthews. Where ? 

Mr. DeMaio. In Barcelona. 

Mr. Matthews. In Barcelona? 

]\Ir. DeMaio. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Wasn't it the American steamship Oregon? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know whether that was the name of it or not. 
There were several American shij)s. 

Mr. Matthews. Who went with you when you went aboard the 
ship? 

Mr. De^Iaio. I went alone, 

Mr, Matthews. Are you sure that George Mink and Cohn didn't 
accompany you when you went aboard that ship ? 

Mr. De^Iaio, They did not. 

Mr, Matthews, Well, what was your purpose in going aboard the 
steamship Oregon in Barcelona ? 

Mr, DejMaio, It was along the same line as visiting a cafe. It 
was paj-t of the time — of killing time while in Barcelona — possibly 
being able to pick up a pack of American cigarettes, that is all. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. DeMaio, didn't you go aboard the 
American steamship Oregon to place Albert Wallach under arrest? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr, Matthews. In company with George Mink? 

Mr, DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. INIatthews. And Captain Cohn? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever have any acciuaintance that you can 
now recall or any knowledge of Albert Wallach ? 

Mr. DeMaio. No knowledge whatsoever, 

Mr, Matthews. Did you know Wayne Taine? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

]Mr. Matthews. Lawrence McCullough, did you know him? 

Mr. De^NIaio. No. 

Mr. INIatthews. Did you know any one by the name of Frich^ 

Mr. DeMaio, No. 



7808 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Did you know Mr. Wolff in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I knew Mr. Wolff in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever know Virgil Morris? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

Mr, Matthews. Did you ever hear the name in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. Can't recall. 

Mr. Matthews. George Dempsey ? 

Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever meet him ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I think George Dempsey was once our cook, but I 
don't know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know them any time as prisoners — calling 
the name, reading the names? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see any prisoners in Spain who were 
members of the American section? 

Mr. DeMaio. Never paid much attention to them. I wouldn't re- 
call their names or faces. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see any prisoners? 

Ml-. DeINIaio. I saw the labor battalions but I never distinguished 
their faces or anything. 

Mr. Matthews. Were members of the labor battalion the same as 
prisoners? Is that what you mean to testify? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know whether they were or not. I don't 
know anything about the disciplinary units in Spain. 

Mr. Mstthews. Did you know Paul White? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Did you ever hear the name of Paul White? 

Mr. DeMaio. I can't recall the name definitely or the face. 

Mr. Matthews. You can't recall his face. Do you have a vague 
recollection of his face? 

Mr. DeMaio. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you eA^er know him as Johnnie Adams in 
this country? 

Mr. DeMaio. Never did. 

Mr. Matthews. But you now have some vague recollection? 

Mr. DeMaio. I have a vague recollection of the name but the 
individual I have no recollection or knowledge of. 

Mr. Matthews. And you associate his name with the execution 
about which you say you have a vague recollection, is that right? 

Mr. DeMaio. That is right. Tliat is the only recollection I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you meet Robert Minor in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. Robert Minor spoke to us a fcAv times only in the 
capacity of a corre9])ondent. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the limit of his duties in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. As far as I know. I never knew him personally. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever talk to him personally in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you meet any of the members of the Inter- 
national Political Commission for the International Brigade in 
Spain ? 

Mr. DeMaio. What is the International Political Commission? 

Mr. Matthews. By whatever title it was known — the group of 
men 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7809 

Mr. DeMaio. Tell ine exactly what you mean. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, Andre Marty, for example. Did you ever 
meet Andre Marty in Spain? 

Mr. DkMaio. I have seen him. 

]Mr. Matthews. Did 3't)u ever meet Harry Pollock from England? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never saw him. 

Mr. Matthews. You know he was in Spain, don't you? 

IMr. DeMaio. I don't know, 

Mr. Matthews. You know Andre Marty Avas in Spain? 

]\Ir. DeMaio. I know Andre Mart} was in Spain. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did you meet Earl Browder in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never met him. 

Mr. MATTHEW^s. Did you see him in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I didn't see him. 

]\Ir. Matthews. But you did see Robert Minor there. How long 
was Minor in Sjiain? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know. 

j\Ir. Matthp:ws. Did you ever make any reports to Robert Minor? 

Mr. DeMaio. I told you I never spoke to Robert Minor. 

;Mr. Matthews. Did you ever make any reports to him? 

Mr. DeMaio. Xever did. 

Mr. Matthews. About any matters? 

ISIr. DeMaio. About nothing at all. 

Mr. Matthews. Pertaining to the Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mr. MATTHEw^s. Do you know. John Little? 

Mr. DeMaio. I don't know him. 

^fr. Matthews. John Little, of the Young Communist League? 

]\Ir. DeMaio. I don't know him. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know him ? 

Mr. De:\L\io. No. 

Mr. MATTHEWS. You did not meet him in Spain? 

Mr. De]Maio. I did not meet him in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. How much time did you spend at the front alto- 
gether? Can you give us a rough estimate of that, Mr. DeMaio? 

Mr. DeMaio. I think about 11 months, exclusive of a period that I 
spent convalescing, 

Mr. Matthew^s. Eleven months at the front. And how much time 
would that leave? About 9 or 10 months when von w^ere not at the 
front ? 

Mr. DeMaio. About that. 

^h\ Matthews. Were you familiar with the details of the retreat to 
the Ebro in April 1938? 

Mr. DeMaio. I am not. 

]\fr. Matthews. Did you know that a large number of the American 
soldiers preferred to surrender to the Fascists at the time of that 
retreat than to continue in the service of the International Brigade? 

Mr. DeMaio. I never heard of it, and I don't believe it. 

Mr. Lynch. Mr. De^NIaio. when did you return to the United States? 

Mr. DeMaio. Sometime in March 1939. 

Mr. Lynch. And did vou return on a passport or not? 

Mr. De]\Iaio. I object ; I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer that ? 

Mr. De^L^io. I refuse to answer. 



7810 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. On what gTOiind? 

Mr. DeMaio. On the grounds previously stated. 

The Chairman. It will tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. DeMaio. That is right. 

The Chairman. Is that right ? 

Mr. DeMaio. That is right. 

Mr. Lynch. What ship did you return on ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that on the same ground. 

Mr. Lynch. At what port did you land ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I landed in the port of New York. 

Mr. Lynch. And where were you educated, Mr. DeMaio ? 

Mr. DeMaio. In Hartford, Conn. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you graduate from high school ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you attend high school ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. Which high school ? 

Mr. DeMaio. Mr. Chairman, may I ask what that has to do with 
this investigation ? 

The Chairman. Do you object to answering that question — what 
high school you attended? 

Mr. DeMaio. (No answer.) 

Mr. Lynch. Do you know what high school you attended? 

Mr. DeMaio. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Lynch. Did you go under the name of Anthony DeMaio at 
that time ? 

Mr. DeMaio. I did. 

Mr. Lynch. And you spelled it D-e-M-a-i-o, is that correct? 

Mr. DeMaio. That is correct. 

Mr. Lynch. And what was your address at the time you went 
abroad in this country? 

Mr. DeMaio. I believe it was — ^I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. On the ground it tends to incriminate you? 

Mr. DeMaio. That is right. 

Mr, Lynch. Did you have a witness to your passport application 
when you obtained a passport? 

Mr. DeMaio. I refuse tO' answer. 

Mr. Schwab. Mr. Chairman, in order to save time I would appre- 
ciate getting through with my last witness here so we could all leave. 
And I think the witness has indicated clearly that he won't answer 
anv questions pertaininc: to the passport, 

Mr. Lynch. Now, Mr. Chairman, the section of the law, for the 
benefit of counsel who never heard of it, is section 103 of the Revised 
Statutes, says: 

Mr. Schwab. Nothing in that statute, Mr. Chairman, that refers 
tO' a constitutional right that everybody in America knows about — 
nothing about refusing to testify on the ground that it may incrimi- 
nate him. 

Mr. Lynch. Now, the next section : 

No testimony given liy a witness before either Honse or before any committee 
or by the Honses of Congress sliall be iised as evidence in any criminal pro- 
ceeding against him in any conrt except in tlie prosecution for perjury com- 
mitted in giving sucli testimony. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7811 

I ask the chairman, in view of these two statutes, to direct the 
witness to answer the questions which he heretofore refused to 
answer. 

The Chairman. Well, that is a matter that the committee will 
have to forego for the time bein*^. We will have to consider that. 

Mr. ^Matthews. I have one more question to ask the witness. ]Mr. 
DeMaid, did 3'ou know Bernard Ades in Spain? 

Mr. Dp:Maio. Spell that last name? 

Mr. ^Matthews. A-d-e-s — Bernard Ades. 

Mr. DeMaio. I did not know him. 

Mr. Ma7thews. Did you know Major Galleani? 

Mr. DeMaio. I heard of him ; I don't know him. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his position in Spain? 

Mr. DeMaio. A major, that is all I know. He was never connected 
with any unit that I was connected with. 

]Mr. Matthews. But you do know he was in Spain? 

Mr. DeINIaio. I took that for granted. 

Mr. ^Matthews. The next witness is Major Galleani, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Schwab. I was here all day yesterday — I had a matter on — 
there is one more of my witnesses here and I think as a courtesy to 
me, if for no other reason, you should not make me stay over or 
come back and I think 

The Chairman. INIajor Galleani. 

Mr. Schwab. May I say this, I have to be back tonight. I was 
figuring on making the next plane. 

Mr. Dp:mpsey. You are not under subpena. 

Mr. Schwab. I am an attorney, and I am asking a courtesy. 

The Chairman. We have to pioceed in order. We will take that 
up in a few minutes. 

Mr. Schwab. Will you hear this witness today ? 

The Chairman. I Mill have to confer with counsel with reference 
to this witness. What witness is it you have? 

Mr. Schwab. Jerry Cooke. 

The Chairman. We will take that up in a few minutes. 

TESTIMONY OF HUMBERTO GALLEANI, FORMER MAJOR, SPANISH 

LOYALIST ARMY 

The Chahoian. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear- 
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help^ 
you God? 

Mr. Galleani. I do. 

Ml-. ]\Iatthews. What is your full name? 

]\Ir. Galleani. Humberto Galleani. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhat is your address, Mr. Galleani? 

Mr. Galleani. 2 West Fifteenth Street, New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Mi-. Galleani. I show you a copy of Newsweek, 
dated July 24, 1937. On i)age 16 there is a photograph. Is that a 
photograph of yourself [handing magazine to the witness] ? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. 

,Mr. Matthews. Under the pliotograph are the Avoi-ds : "Major 
Galleani, first United States volunteer.'' Was that the first United 
States volunteer to Spain? 



7812 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Galleani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a flyer or throw-away with a photo- 
graph and ask you if that is a photooraph of yourself [handing 
paper to the witness] ? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, 

Mr, Matthews. At what meetin<>- were you speaking when this 
photograph was taken? 

Mr. Galleani. I was speaking at the meeting in the first anni- 
versary of tlie conflict in Spain on July 19, 1937. 

Mr, Matthews. And there are other photographs on this throw- 
away. I ask you if you can identify this photograph [handing 
paper to the witness] ? 

Mr. Galleani. Earl Browder. 

Mr. Matthews. Earl Browder, the general secretary of the Com- 
munist Party of the Ignited States? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matth?:ws. And who is this? 

Mr. Galleani. Angelo Herndon. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a sheet which comes from Life maga- 
zine. Here is a picture taken in a field [handing exhibit to the 
wntness], 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a photogi-aph of yourself? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Matthews. Where was tliat taken? 

Mr. Galleani. In Alabres, near Madrid. 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes; in Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. Major Galleani, I show you a certificate. 
Will you please identify that certificate and state its significance? 

Mr. Galleani. That is a certificate given by the Ministry of De- 
fense — by the Defense Ministry of Spain, stating that I have served 
in the International Brigade as a major in defense of liberty of 
Spanish people. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this given you at the time you left Spain? 

]VIr. Galleani. Yes. And I have another one here. 

Mr. Matthews. This is dated Barcelona, 15th of November 1938. 

Mr. Galleani. And I have another one here. 

Mr. Matthews. This is fi'om the Minister of Defense. 

Mr. Galleani, Yes; awarding the medal of the International 
Brigade to Major Galleani, 

Mr. Matthews. Is this an award for your services? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

As a reward for his behavior during the second war for Spanish inde- 
pendence, His Excellency, the Minister of National Defense, has resolved to 
award to yon the medal of the International Brigades, established by circular 
order of October 20, 19,38, official jonrnal of the Oovernment No. 27;1, for non- 
Spanish combatants who have served in said brigades since their formation 
until the date of the said circular order. 

This information I take pleasure in communicating to yon in the name 'of 
His Excellency, the Minister, for your satisfaction and for all purposes. 



I 
1 



UN-AMEIIICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7813 

Si<>ned at "Baiveloiui, November 15, 1938," by the subsecretary, 
*'Ant()iii() Cordon.'' It is addressed to "jNIaj. Huniberto Galleani." 

What Avas your rank in Spain. iNIr. Galleani? 

Mr. Gallkaxt. AVell, I went to Si)ain on October 1. 11)3G, and as 
the International lirioades were in formation at that time, the first 
International Brigades were in formation, and as I am of Italian 
descent 1 was ])ut in command of the Italian battalion of the Inter- 
national Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see service at the front? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What length of service did yon have at the front? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, I was there from October 10, 193C, up to 
April 19, 1937. In 1937 the Spanish Government sent me to United 
States in a tour of propaganda. I went back to Spain in October 
1937 — in September, rather, 1937 — and was there u]) to the last day. 
I left Spain on February 7, 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. Did "you have as long a record of service in the 
actual front lines as 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. As any American who fought in the Spanish civil 
war ? 

Mr. Galleani. I was. When I came back — when I went back in 
October 1937 T was assigned to tlie general staff of the Fifteenth 
International Brigade, and I remained with the Fifteenth Inter- 
national Brigade until the end of March 1938, when I was trans- 
referred to the regular Spanish army as the commander of a brigade, 

Mr. Matthews. Was there an Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain l 

Mr. Galleani. Well, in Spain I never heard of the Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade. The name of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade was 
the Fifteenth International Brigade, and it was the English-speak- 
ing brigade — that is, a brigade com]>osed of English — Battalion 
Fifty-seventh of the Lincoln-Washington, Battalion Fifty-eighth, 
Battalion Fifty-ninth — it was c'om])letely of Spanish people and of 
the Sixtieth Battalion MacKenzie-Papeneau. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, were you on the general staff of the Inter- 
national Brigade i 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Were your duties political or military? 

Mr. Galleani. Military. 

Mr. Matthews. Had you had previous military experience? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. t was an officer in the Italian Army during 
the World War. 

Mr. Matthews. You were an officer in the Italian Army during 
the AVorld War? What rank did you hold? 

Mr. Galleani. I was lieutenant and became captain when the war 
dismissed. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. wlien you volunteered to go to Si)ain to 
fight with the International Brigade, were you a member of the 
Commnnist Party? 

Mr. Galleani. I was. 

^Ir. ^NTattiiews. How long had you been a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Galleani. Well. I had been since the Communist Party started 
the palicy of democratic liberty — of democracy in 1934 or 1935. 



7814 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. What was your purpose in enlisting for service 
in Spain? 

Mr. Galleani. I enlisted — first of all, I went to Spain almost 
against the will of the party. The ])olicy of the party at that time 
was not to send men to Spain. I made my application to the Spanish 
consul to go to Spain and was warned by the party if I insisted 
in my application I would be expelled, so I made many rec(uests and 
finally told that if I asked, if paying my own fare to go to Europe, 
they will let me go. 

Mr. Matthews, Then is it correct, as stated in the Newsweek 
Magazine, that you were the first volunteer? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Matthews. To fight from the United States? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. The other contingent — the first con- 
tingent of Americans arrived in Spain about the beginning of 
January 1937. I arrived in Spain October 10, 1936. 

Mr, Matthews. To what extent was your volunteering as the 
first volunteer from the United States to fight in the Spanish civil 
war motivated — by your experience — dislike of fascism as you had 
known it in Italy? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, I was a political refugee in this country 
since 192-t. I had been — was submitted by Fascists to mistreatment 
plenty of times. I had several times plenty of castor oil, I was 
beaten several times and then as a lawj^er, I was not jiermitted to 
practice, and so I had to leave Italy in order to not be obliged to 
submit to persecution. 

In this country I have always been a militant of the anti-Fascist 
Italians, and I have been foreign editor of the Italian anti-Fascist 
newspaper. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was that what led you to join the Communist 
Party, your dislike of fascism, or shall I say your intense dislike of 
fascism ? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, there are many reasons. 

Mr. Matthews. When you were persuaded that the Communist 
Party had embarked on a program for the defense of democracy 
was that the reason you joined the Communist Party? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Matthews, Now, will you please state briefly and cleai'ly and 
distinctly as ]:)Ossible what you disco^'ered in Spain with reference 
to Russian control of the International Brigade, and I mean by that 
not sim])ly Communist Party control, but control from the Soviet 
Union? 

Mr, Galleani, When the International Brigades were formed, 
when the International Brigades were formed, in October 1936, there 
were not yet any Russians in Spain, The first Russian to arrive 
was General Kleber, who took command of what was at that time 
the only International Brigade, composed mainly of French, Italian, 
German, Polish, and a few more nationalities of the Balkan countries. 
After General Kleber arrived, General Lukacz, who had the com- 
mand of the Second Brigade, that was called the Twelfth Brigade, 
the l)rigade commanded by General Kleber was the Eleventh Brigade, 
the brioade commanded bv General Lukacz was the Twelfth Brijiade, 
and these were the two brigades who helped a great lot in saving 



UN-AMEIIICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7815 

the city of Aladi'iil from the Fascist invasion. At that time in the 
International Briijade there was really a reoinie of democracy. 

I have explained this in many interviews to the press. 

In 1937 I e.\i)lained tliis in my lectnre tour all over the United 
States. And 1 have said that, for instance, the political connnissars 
at that time were elected by the rank and file. If the rank and file 
were not satisfied with an officer, the officer was exonerated before 
g-oina" to a combat. A report was called of all the battalion com- 
nnuulers, and they were exonerated, completely — what the action 
was to be, what the ])nrpose of the action, how were the forces of 
the eneni}', how many were the firearms that the enemy had at his 
dis])osal. and so on. Then the same tliino- would liappen a<>-ain in 
the battalion, who is the connnander, the same thino- would luippen 
in the company, with the commander of section. That is, that there 
was really a debate how the combat had to be prosecuted and every- 
one had the right to criticize the plan of the connnand, to make 
propositions and to sometimes — it happens that even the proposition 
of a sublieutenant are accepted by the general command. 

Mr. Matthews. How long did that situation prevail? 

Mr. Gai.leani. That sitnation ])revailed until I left for America. 
And I have to tell very frankly that I never would have come over 
here to make projiaganda if this was not the situation. 

AVhen I come back I found that in every International Brigade 
thei'e was a great number of Russian officers who were the direct 
representatives of the Comintern, sent over there, I think, for two 
purposes: To establish the strictest connection between the leader 
of the Russians, whf) -were in Spain, and also to make a little of 
experience on a real war because, of course, there were many young 
officers who did not have any practice, you know, in w'ar. 

^Ir. ]\Iatthews. You mean the Russian Government was training 
men for a future European Avar on the battlefields of S])ain? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. Of course, all the International Brigade 
at the time — at the time there were 5 International Brigades, from 
11 to 15 — all commanded by officers arriving from Russia — Eleventh 
by Kleber and Twelfth by Lukacz and the Thirteenth by an Italian 
man who bore the name of Krieger. The Fourteenth was under the 
command of Lt. Cole Dumont. a French Communist Party member, 
designated by Andre Marte. and the .Fifteenth by Vladimir Copic, 
who was a former deputy in Yugoslavia — an exiled Russian since 
about 8 or 9 years. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, who was General Gall? 

Air. Gai.lea>-i. General Gall was the first commander of the 
Fifteenth International Brigade, also Russian. 

j\Ir. Matthews. And that was the brigade in which the Lincoln 
Battalion 

Mr. Galleaxi. Yes. At that time the two battalions, Lincoln and 
Washington — it was afterward one, reduced to one battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I want to come back to that presently, INIajor 
Galleani, but I would like to ask you if you knew Tony DeMaio 
in Spain? 

]Mr. Gaeleani. Yes. I know — T have known Tony DeMaio. As a 
matter of fact I was in charge of the Fifteenth International Brigade 
in Grandesa around the 20th of ^Nlarch 1938, when a battalion ar- 

94931 — 10— vol. 13 10 



7816 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

rived from the instruction base iit Terre*2;on:i. I saw the list of the 
men and I saw the name of this youn«; Italian man, so I approached 
him and I asked him if he was Italian-born. He told me he was 
American born. I saw that he was a husky youn*»; fellow, and I 
told him, ''Well, I hope you will do good here." 

After about 5 or 6 days I went to inspect the Lincoln Battalion 
and I asked where DeMaio was. DeMaio, by the way. had the rank 
of sublieutenant at the time. So I learned DeMaio left the battalion 
on a special mission, and I protested with C'opic and told him not 
right young man like DeMaio just arrived at the front sent out on 
a mission. The right way to send him to the trenches before and 
see what he could do in the trenches and then send him on special 
mission. 

Later on I found out DeMaio had been ])ut in charge of the Inter- 
national Brigade prison at Castle de Fells, near Barcelona. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you hear DeMaio's testimony if 

Mr. (talleani. I did not hear it completel}', the testimony. 

Mr. Matthews. But you testify that you learned that DeMaio was 
placed in charge of the prison foi' the 

Mr. Galleani. At Castle de Fells. And when I left Barcelona at 
the end of January, just a couple of days before the Fascists arrived 
in Barcelona, at the railroad station at about 15 kilometers from 
Barcelona, I don't remember the name just now, I met De^Iaio with 
his prisoners — he had about, oh, I don't know — I can't estimate — 180 
or 200 prisoners 

Mr, Matthews. In his charge? 

Mr. Galleani. In his charge. xVnd I talked to him, and as I know 
what military discipline is, I asked him the j)ermission to see some 
of the Italian prisoners who had been in the formation of the Gari- 
baldi Battalion. So I saw two or three of the i)risoners — a man by 
the name of Ortega and a man by the name of Perogina and another 
man by the name of Oloca, and all the three complained to me about 
the brutal treatment that De^NIaio was giving to the prisoners. But, 
of course, at the time the International Brigade was almost — there 
Avas no reason for making any way — we were where we could not take 
care of a matter of that kind any more. 

Mr. Mati'hews. How long was it between the time that you first 
learned that DeMaio had been placed in charge of the ])rison at Castle 
de Fells and the time you met him on this occasion? 

Mr. Galleani. About — now, I will tell you, from the middle of 
April 1938 to the end of January 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. For a period of 8 or 9 months? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matfhew^s. DeMaio was in charge of prisoners? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain? 

Mr. Galleani. In Spain; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you learn of anv individual cases which were 
handled by or under DeMaio which had to do with discipline — even 
with execution? 

Mr. Galleani. Well. I can't say anything about execution. I don't 
know. I am told that several prisoners at Castle de Fells disap- 
]>earo(l mysteriously, but I can't say by my proper knowledge any- 
thing about the disappearance of anybody. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7817 

Mr. Matthews. AVell, do voii know 



Mr. (xALLEAxr. What I can tell, if you will })ermit me, what I can 
tell is this, that anion^- the prisoners which, according to my infor- 
mation, wei'e mistreated, thei'e was a James Dougherty from Detroit, 
Mich. 

Mr. Matthews. D-o-u-g-h-e-r-t-y? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. To whom DelNIaio made the threat that he 
vrould never come back to the United States. I really don't know if 
Dougherty came back to the I'nitcd States. Other prisoners who 
complained about the treatment by DeMaio were Frank Alexander, 
Paul Elliott, Robert Quiiui, and, of course, these three Italian fel- 
lows whom I have named before. 

I have been told also that the man whom I knew very well at the 
brigade by the name of Isenberg was put in the old — you have to 
know the i)rison was an old monastery and tliere was a little church, 
of course, with marble floor and this was the place where the prison- 
el's were put who had to be punished — were put without anything 
to sleep in, even without a little straw. They were sleeping on the 
floor. They were having very little food. They were forbidden 
even if they had the means, of smoking, and so on. 

This Isenberg was put in the church because it seemed he com- 
plained to DeMaio about the treatment he was receiving there and 
about the fact that the guards were selling tobacco to people who 
had money instead of putting the tobacco among the prisoners. 

Mr. ]\Iattiiews. What other facts did you learn about the system 
<»f punishment or torture or inhumanity practiced against prisoners? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, let me tell you, I am absolutely in disfavor 
of any physical punishment, so when another battalion where DeMaio 
belonged to come over to Alcanz, I was sent to meet this battalion 
and I was informed for the first time that by order of Maj. Allen 
Johnson the instruction base at Tarragona had a special police and 
the officer in charge of the battalion told me that he had about 16 
oi- 17 prisoners, most of them guilty of getting drunk, you know, 
which was very easy in Spain because the wine is very heavy and a 
great alcoholic content. We were in a village which was dominated 
by anarchists, and the anarchists didn't like at all the International 
Brigade, so I was particularly zealous that nothing happened that 
gave to the anarchists an}' reason for showing this displeasure for 
the International lirigade. Instead when this little platoon of prison- 
^-rs passed on, I didn't know myself for what reason the man in 
<harge began to club them with the blackjack, and they never in any 
othei- biigade in Spain use the blackjack. 

So I ran in among these men and this man in charge of the police, 
the chief of police was so excited that he tried to hit me too with 
the blackjack in spite I was in uniform and, of course, was a superior 
officei'. 

I can tell that they have been using rather brutal system against 
men from the physical violence to the universal system of threatening 
for any reason if a man made any criticism. The first thing they used 
to say was that he was a provocateur; that he was a defeatist and 
threatening to i)ut him against the wall. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, was Maj. Allen Johnson in charge of this 
platoon of prisoners that you saw? 



7818 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Galleani. He was not in charge of the platoon of prisoners. 
He was in charge of the battalion of the instruction base at Tarra- 
gona. He was not with this particular battalion. He was remain 
in Tarragona. 

Mr. Mattheiavs. Did you know of the cases of men who were exe- 
cuted on the beach at Barcelona for drunkenness ? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, I heard of it, but I had no particular way — 
I have heard — what I am sure about is the execution of Paul White 
who was the quartermaster of the Lincoln-Washington Battalion. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you tell what vou know about the execution 
of Paul White? 

INIr. Galleani. Paul White tried to abandon Spain — he tried to 
leave Spain — we were volunteers of liberty — we had no engagement 
whatsoever with the Spanish Government and the Spanish Gov- 
ernment has never made any difficulty to volunteer, for a volunteer 
who wanted to leave Spain because they didn't like it any more and 
didn't want to stay here. Instead, the policy of the International 
Brigade was that no volunteer could leave and, as a matter of fact, 
they were declared deserters, people who tried to abandon Spain. 

Many, many time it happen that people to whom the International 
Brigade forbade to leave Spain, went to the Ministry of War there 
and they were immediately discharged from the army and sent back 
to their country. 

So, in the case of Paul White, according to my information, he 
was arrested on the Pyrenees while he was trying to get out of Spain. 
There was, of course, a mock trial, you know — it was very easy to 
make mock trial in the International Brigade, and after a couple of 
days this rather ironical communication was made to the battalion, 
that for unanimous decision of the battalion the volunteer Paul 
A¥hite had been executed. This was communicated at the battalion 
who should have given the sentence and we didn't know anything 
about it. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know that Paul White's real name was 
John Quincy Adams? 

jNIr. Galleani. I don't know his real name. I have no name but 
Paul White. 

Mr. VooRHis. Just a minute. It seems to me that is very im^ 
portant. As I understand your testimony it is that the men serv- 
ing in the International Brigade had never taken any obligation to 
the Spanish Government? 

Mr. Galleani. Never. 

Mr. VooRHis. That the Spanish Government's attitude was that 
Avhenever they wanted to leave they were free to do so ? 

Mr. Galleani. Sure. 

Mr. VooRHis. But that the policy of the International Brigade 
itself was quite the opposite? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes, sir; quite the opposite. 

Mv. VooRHis. Well, who was responsible for that policy on the 
part of the International Brigade? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, the International Brigade have been most of 
the time almost a autonomous formation in the Spanish Army, de- 
pending more by the political control of the Comintern than by 
the Government. There was a big political hierarchy that started at 
the top with the so-called International Commission of Control 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7819 

lietided bv a Russian woman, and where the representatives of the 
•Comnuinist Party of all the country were represented from the Com- 
mission of Control. The ])ower Avas <roino: to a so-called conmiis- 
sion — political-military connnission of the Spanish Connnunist 
I'arty. which, however, was a rubber stamp in the case of the Inter- 
national Commission of Control. 

Then every party — every Communist Party there had a member 
of the central connnittee — a deleoate of the central committee. In 
the case of the Fifteenth International Brigade the American Central 
Committee was represented by Robert Minor; the English Communist 
Party was represented by Rust, and the Canadian Communist Party 
was represented by Taylor. 

Mr. ]MA'rTHEWS.' Mr. Galleani, I want to make that perfectly clear. 
Are you sure that Robert Minor was in charge of the affairs for the 
American Communist Party? 

Mr. Galleaxi. Well. I can tell you positively that no change in 
the high command of the brigade or in the political commissariat or 
brigade could take place without the consent of Robert Minor. 

The Chaikmax. So that the International Brigade was completely 
•controlled by the Communist Party? 

Mr. Galleani, By the Communist Party : yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now, did you finish with the information which 
you had on the execution of Paul White? 

Mr. Galleaxi. This is all I know of the execution of Paul "Wliite. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Do you knoAv Avhere he was executed or by whom ? 

]Mr. Galleaxi. He Avas executed in Marsan ( ? ) and by whom, 
according to my information, by a Ncav York young man who was 
knoAvn at the brigade by the name of Ivan. 

Mr. Mattheavs. I-v-a-n? 

Mr. Galleax-i. I-A^-a-n._ Now, I haA-e to tell that before leaA^ing 
Spain no special police of 'the type of G. P. U. was existing in Spain. 
At the request of one of the Russian chiefs at the time the Defense 
Ministrv of the Loyalist Government instituted the thing which was 
tailed S. I. M. 

Mr. Mattheavs. What is the English equivalent of that? 

Mr. Galleaxi. The Intelligence Service. 

Mr. Mattheaa^s. SoA^iet Intelligence Service? 

Mr. Galleax'i. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now. Mr. Galleani, Avould Robert Minor have any- 
thing to say about disciplinary cases or executions ? 

Mr. Galleani. I don't think an execution — I don't think he had 
ever been asked about the executions. The execution Avas made 
Avithout even asking him. but he had supervising power, as I told you, 
in every change of superior officer and he was in contact with the 
International Commission of Control. 

Mv. IVIattheavs. Now, did a'ou find on your second period of stay 
in Spain • 

Mr. Gallean"!. Well, I Avas talking — pardon me, if I interrupt — 
I was talking of this S. I. M., as AA-e say in Spanish, this S. I. INI., was 
a kind of intelligence serA'ice Avhich required undoubtedly to be exe- 
cuted by some very responsible man. Instead of that the Fifteenth 
International Brigade Avas in charge of a young man about 21 or 
22 years old. Very excitable and who tried to shoAv that he Avas a 
tough guy, so this man. this Ivan, made the inquiry on the case of 



7820 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Paul White and reported that Paul White had tried to desert and 
so on. And I have been told that he had been in command of the 
firing squad. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know anything about the case of a maii 
named Tachus? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, these are two brothers, Joe and Jolm, to 
whom DeMaio made threat that they would never come back to the 
United States. 

Mr. Matthews. DeMaio threatened them they would never come 
back to the United States? 

Mr. Gallp:ani. Yes. Now, I don't know if they returned or not. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Did you know a case of a man named Modesto? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, Modesto. Modesto was one of the highest 
ranking officers of the Spanish Ai-my. He was lately in command 
of the Army of the Ebro. He was the general even if he didn't carry 
the rank of general. He was a colonel, but he was the one who 
prepared the crossing of the Ebro in July 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. And did he return to Russia? 

Mr. Galleani. He was a younger man who had been at the mili- 
tary school in Kussia and he was put in charge of the connnand 
of one of the battalions of the Fifth Regiment, wdiich was the com- 
munist formation of the First Spanish Militia. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Fred Keller in Spain ? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes; very well. 

Islv. Matthews. What did you know about Keller's activities? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, to use a very mild expression, Fred Keller was 
a bad boy. He undoubtedly — he had no sense of responsibility neces- 
sary to be a political commissar of a battalion, and when I had Fred 
Keller under my command, particidarly when we moved the brigade 
in train from near Teruel to Valencia, I had to complain about Fred 
Keller for several reasons, which we will explain, and after my report 
to the lieutenant colonel and the political commissar of the brigade, 
Fred Keller was exonerated from the charge by the political com- 
missar of the battalion. 

Now, I want to mention two cases. He was the one who was en- 
couraging the men to do a little vandalism, you know. For instance, 
we arrived with the train near Segundo and the train was stuck in 
the field. There was a marvelous orange garden. There was the 
more severe order that we didn't touch anything of tlie fruit of the 
Spanish peasants. He released all the men of the battalion and they 
went to rob a great quantity of oranges which belonged to poor 
working men. 

On tlie return to Barrajas we were waiting the order from the 
division where we had to go and there was in the office of the station 
master waiting for a telei)hone, one of the Spanish sergeants came 
over and complained to me that he was on guard of a wagon of a 
fruit train and that the political commissar with a bunch of men 
went there to rob 8 bottles of cognac and about 20 or 25 cases of corn 
beef — canned corn beef. 

Mr. Mat-ihews. Was that political commissar Fred Keller? 

Mr. Galleani, Yes, sir. So I called Keller and I told 

What is the matter, Keller? What do yon think you are? What is this idea. 
This man has been pnt in eharfie of a guard over a wagon and, of course, he is 
responsible. How can he justify that political connnissar of the International 
Brigade gave the order to rob these things from the wagon. 



UN-AMERKWN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7821 

So I compelled Keller to <2.ive back the copuic but. unfortunately, 
the co«i;nac was about 20 <ra lions and unfortunately 3 bottles had dis- 
ai)i)eared. A couple of houi's later almost all of the men of the bat- 
talion Avere drunk. That was a bi<r dan^rer because we were at the 
front and we were neai" the enemy, and the battalion could have 
been called to action at any moment. 

Mr. Matttikws. Did yoii say that Fred Keller had been discharged 
at one time i 

Mr. Galleani. He was exonerated. The proof is this: This fact 
occurred on February 1988. 

Mr. ^Iatthkws. You used the word "exonerated." I think you 
mean the opposite? 

Mr. (tai.leani. Xo: exonerated. He was taken away frcmi the 
cliar<re. 

Mr. MA'rrHKWs. "Well, that means the opposite^ 

Mr. (tali.kani. This is the Spanish expression — ''exonerated." 

Mr. MATrHKws. You mean relieved of duty i 

]Mr. (taixeaxi. Relieved of duty: yes. Now, as proof of this, 
later on, 15 days or a little more later, when the Belchite action 
took place and the connnander of the Lincoln Battalion, the political 
connnissar of the Lincoln Battalion were killed in action, the com- 
mander of the base was Dave Rees from Paterson, N. J., and the 
political connnissar was Parker from Boston. 

After the death of Parker the political connnissar of the battalion 
for a few weeks was Johnnie Gates, political commissar of the 
Lincoln Battalion, so this proved that Fred Keller had been relieved 
from his duty. 

Mr. ALatthews. AVell, now, was he relieved for the reastm 

]Mr. Galleaxi. He was relieved by order of Dave Doran, and 
as there was not a way in Spain in the International Brijjade to 
send a man to a lower charge, he was put — he was assigned to the 
political commissariat staff of the brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Milton Wolff? 

Mr. Galleaxi. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhat was Jiis connection with you? 

^Ir. Galleaxi. 1 have a high estimation of Alilton Wolff. Mr. 
AVolff is a young man. He has no great experience. He has been 
coui-age(Mis. He has a show of good will at all times. The only 
thing that Mr. AVolff* has is this, that he is a member of the Com- 
munist Party and as a membei- of the Communist. Party, he has a 
.sense of discipline and of obeyance to his party leaders, which many 
times make him commit great mistakes. 

Mr. Matthf:ws. Did you know J. Gordon Honeycombe in Spain? 

Mr. (jalleaxi. Yes. He was a runner or a chief runner of the 
brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him to have experience at the 
front ? 

Mr. Galleaxi. Yes. He had been at the frcmt. He had been at 
the fi'ont. He had been at the front at Teruel and Belchite and 
other places. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that he was at the front in those 
actions? 

]\Ir. Galleaxi. Yes, sir. 



7822 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Phil Bard in Spain? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes; but he didn't participate any longer in the 
brigade. He had been wounded and he had come back to the brigade 
just for a few days but didn't take any particular service. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what were the activities of Browder in 
Spain, which came to your attention? 

Mr. (talleani. Well, I saw Earl Browder in Spain when we left 
Teruel just to go to Valencia in that famous expedition where Fred 
Keller committed those abuses. Earl Browder spoke to the men of 
the Lincoln Brigade in a field near the station where we were stop- 
ping, and he told to the men — this is what I can't exactly remember, 
that he had to complain because he had heard that the American 
boys in Spain had taken the role of imperialists that was not in 
compliance with the direction of the Communist Party. 

Mr. INIatthews. Did he say anything about American boys being 
required to stay in Spain until the end of the war? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes; he did. He declared that they had to stay in 
Spain until the war was finished. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not many of the Ameri- 
can boys were promised they would be repatriated after 6 months? 

Mr. Galleani. I don't know about this, because I was not in Amer- 
ica when the engagement took place. I know, however, that this 
promise had been made to the English volunteers who came over to 
Spain and the English volunteers who came over to Spain had been 
promised that they would be released after 6 months. But in spite 
of their insistence, many of them who asked to be relieved were not 
relieved and I think there were two English boys, a sergeant and a 
soldier, tried to pass to the Fascist lines because they knew that this 
was the only way to get back to England, and they were surprised 
and they were executed immediately. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not the Communist Party 
promised any volunteers for Spain who were in the United States 
illegally that if they went to Spain that the party would see that they 
got back to the United States? 

Mr. Galleani. That is a very, very sad story — one of the stories 
which have prompted me to come here to tell the truth, because I 
think that the treatment of these boys has been a criminal one. 

There were when we left the concentration camp, because I have 
been in the concentration camp in France — there were about 100 
American residents who were illegallv in this country. 

The Chairman. The United States"? 

Mr. Galleani. In the United States. When they were sent to 
Spain the party kneAv that these men were illegally in this country 
and they guaranteed to them that they would take care of their 
return to the United States when the war in Spain would be finished. 

The Chairman. How were they going to do that? 

Mr. Galleani. Now, I don't know how, but they promised that. 
So when we were released from the concentration cam]) and brought 
over to Le Havre, really a step had been taken in order to see if it 
was possible to send back these people to the United States, but the 
step taken met with a refusal, and an absolute refusal on the part of 
the State Department and the Department of Labor, so these men 
were stranded in Le Havre and it cost the committee $1 a day. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7823 

Finanros wpvp xovy ]ioor. Tlio frionds of the Lincoln Brioado decided 
that this man antl the other one had to be disi)osed of and they were 
disposed in this way : If j'ou were sent to Belgium, to Antwerp, or 
sent to Mexico; if you were sent to Cuba and if you were brought to 
the United States illegally with this particular order — 

you go on such and such a boat. You hide yourself for a couple of days and 
after a couple of days you i)roseut themselves to the conunander of the boat. 
You tell him that yt)u were former volunteer in Spain and he will make you 
work and yoii will arrive at Ellis Island. When you arrive at Ellis Island we 
will take care of you. 

When these people arrive at Ellis Island nobody took care of them 
and they remained at Ellis Island 5 or 6 or 7 months, while it was 
granted to them as they were anti-Fascist — most of them from Fascist 
country where their life would be in danger if they had to return. 
They were granted the right to be shipped away to another country 
but to ship them away to another country they had, of course, to have 
money — it required money and the party never wanted to spend 1 cent 
for these people. 

Now. I want to make this clear, that friends of the Lincoln Brig- 
ade and now the veterans of Lincoln Brigade are completely identi- 
fied with the Comnnmist Party. When the party say : "We, the 
friends of the Lincoln Brigade," or "the veterans of the Lincoln 
Brigade." say they have no money that means that the party has 
refused to give them money, and they really thought at that time 
that the party had no money. 

But when they found out. for instance, that after 10 or 15 days the 
party was paying a full-page ad in the New York Times for the 
New Masses, they found out they had money but they didn't want to 
pay the money for the men who sacrificed themselves in S])ain. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you know anything about how passports 
were obtained for the men who went to Spain? 

Mr. G.VLLEAxi. That is a big mystery how the passports were ob- 
tained. I don't know. As I told you. I left when nobody had left. 

Mr. ]M.\TTHEws. Do you know any irregularities 

Mr. Galleaxt. I want to ex])lain to you this, that, of course, the 
order from Russia to form the International Brigade was dated 
around the beginning of October. 

jNIr. Matthews Do vou mean there was an order from Russia to 
form the International Brigade? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes; to form the International Brigade and the 
Communist Part^-i — the Communist Party of France started to en- 
gage the volunteers but. of course, it was easy in France to engage 
volunteers because it cost only a few francs to send them to Spain. 

Instead the Connnunist Party here had to spend about $150 for 
each person they were sending to Spain and they had to collect money 
before being ready to send the men over there. That is why the 
Americans started to leave only at the end of December. 

M)-. Matthews. Do you know anything about any pass]jort irreg- 
ularities? 

]Mr. Gatxeaxi. Well. I know that several of the American boys 
arrived there, who were American passports — the American pass- 
ports were taken away from them at Figueras. That is a city near 
the French border. They say that this passport will be transferred 



7824 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

to Albacete. Then went from the base of the International Brigade, 
move from Albacete to Barcelona when the Fascist forces were about 
to cut the road. They said : ''These passports will be shipped on a 
truck from Albacete to Barcelona and that this truck had been 
captured by the enemy." 

Well, the fact is that the passports were never found any more. 
I can tell you, however, that at the time the transfer of the base 
was made from Albacete to Barcelona, the base of the International 
Brigade had no transportation by railroad so it seems the capture 
was a little like a funny stuff. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what happened to the passports? 

Mr. Gali.eani. Well, they were never found any longer and when 
the boys asked for their passports they were told that the passports 
were lost during the retreat. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Will you please state whether or not you discov- 
ered that the Russian Army methods, including political commissars 
and party representatives and party propaganda meetings, educa- 
tional methods, and so on, was completely incorporated in the Inter- 
national Brigade? 

Mr. Galleani. Completely; completely; but as I told you, not at 
the very beginning. 

Mr. Matthews. But idtimately it was completely incorporated? 

Mr. Galleani. Com])letely; completely. Now I will tell you, for 
instance, the political commissar, at least for the minor units like a 
company or battalion, should have been elected by the rank and file, 
but they were all the time elected by the top. That is, the battalion 
by the brigade commissar, who w^as naturally asking the advice of 
the secretary of the party that was acting in every unit of the Inter- 
national Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Galleani, are you now a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Galleani. No. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you leave the Communist Party? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, when I — I didn't continue my membership 
in the Communist Party in Sjiain because I saw that there was many, 
many faults. The proof is that I asked to leave the International 
Brigade and to go into the regular Spanish Army because in the 
regular Spanish Ai'my there was not such a political machine as 
there was in the International Brigade. So my belonging to the 
Communist Party ended in November 1938. 

The Chairman. You joined the Communist Party here in the 
United States? 

Mr. Galleani. In 1935, 1 think ; at the end of 1934 or the beginning 
of 1935. 

The Chairman. What were you informed as to the membership 
in the party at that time? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, I really didn't have much activity because of 
the fact I was a foreign editor of a daily and I was excused from 
the activity of the party. 

When it came to this, only the last 3 or 4 months before going to 
Spain I was put in charge of the Latin Division of the American 
Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born. 

Mr. Matthews. You were placed there by the American Committee 
for the Protection of the Foreign Born? 



UN-AMEHICAX I'UOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7825 

Mr. (jALLEANi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]Mattiiews. Do you know who the head of the Committee for 
the Protection of the Forei<2:n Born is — do you know who the national 
officers of that organization are^ 

Mr. Galleani. AVcll, at the time the chairman was Herman Reis- 
sig. The secretary was Dwight Morgan and later 

The CiiAiRJMAN. Was that organization in control of the Commu- 
nist Party? 

Mr. GaliJ':ani. Sure. 

The Chairman. They directed the control of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Galleaxi. Sure. 

Mr. MA'rrHEWs. You were assigned by the party to that organiza- 
tion ? 

Mr. Galx,eani. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain, did you see any Russian aviation units 2 

The Chaikman. Pardon me. Is that the same organization that 
met here in AVashington recently? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

The Chairman. At the Annapolis Plotel ? 

Mr. Matthews. I don't know what hotel. 

The Chairman. And you say that the party was in complete control 
of that organization ? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. sir; positively. 

The Chairman. What was the purpose of the organization? 

Mr. Galleani. Well, now, I will tell you. At the time the American 
Committee for the Protection of P^)reign Born was really defending 
pitiful cases of aliens who were put under their protection and many 
of these cases were political cases of refugees who have been in danger 
if they were returned to their native country. It was taking care of 
those so as to obtain a way to transfer them to other countries. 

Later on while the war in Spain, I have been told, that the main 
activity of the American Committee for the Protection of the Foreign 
Born is now to legalize the aliens who were illegally in this country — 
legalize them by sending them outside of the United States and making 
them reenter inU) the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see any Russian aviation in action in 
Spain? 

Mr. Galleani. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they there from near the beginning of the 
war? 

Mr. Galle^^ni. Oh, yes. They arrived there — not at the very begin- 
ning of the war. but they arrived there around the middle of October 
or the end of October. As a matter of fact, they were there — there were 
Russian aviators there when the defense of Madrid took place in 
November 1936. 

Mr. Matthews. And still there in 1938 when the war was over? 

Mr. Galleanl Yes. They were still Russians in 1938. But this 
is one of the things that we could never explain. xVround the month 
of June 1938 all the high officers sent to Spain by Russia was returned 
to Russia. They were explaining that this way: A particular order 
of the Spanish Government who wanted all the units under command 
of the Spanish officers, but their ex])lanation was denied by the fact 
that the commander of the Forty-fifth Division, who was a German, 



7826 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

and the commander of the Forty-fifth Division was in retreat and in 
June 1938 the help of Russia to Spain began to become something very 
very inconsiderable. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you in charge of the Latin-American 
Division or, was it the Latin Division? 

Mr. Galleani. Latin Division of the American Committee for the 
Protection of Foreign Born. I was in charge about 4 or 5 months. 

The Chairman. I think that is all. 

Mr. Matthews. That is all. 

The Chairman. All right, thank you very much. 

Who is your next witness? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. McCuistion. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM C. McCUISTION 

The Chairman. Eaise j^our right hand. Do you solemnly swear tO' 
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Mr, McCuistion. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Give us your full name? 

Mr. McCuistion. William C. McCuistion. 

Mr. Matthews. You have been a witness before this committee 
previously, have you not? 

Mr. McCuistion. Yes, sir. I testified as to how I went to Spain 
and why and et cetera. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go to Spain to fight in the Loyalist Army? 

Mr. McCuistion. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Did you sail aboard the same ship with Albert 
Wallach? 

Mr. McCuistion. We were jointlv in charge of the group that went 
to Paris. Sailed on March 27, 1937. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the passenger list of that sailing? 

(Handing document to the witness.) 

Mr. McCuistion. Yes, sir. The names marked are the men that 
were in the group, and the "X's" are the ones who are surely dead, 
and the others are the ones that have subsequently showed up. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask this be marked as an exhibit. 

The Chairman. It is so ordered. 

(The passenger list referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked 
"McCuistion Exhibit No. 1, April 4, 1940.") 

Mr. Matthews. How many men sailed aboard this ship under the 
charge of yourself and Albert Wallach ? 

Mr. McCuistion. Approximately 24 Americans and 11 Canadians. 

Mr. Matthews. This is your name on the passenger list [indi- 
cating] ? 

Mr. McCuistion. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. William McCuistion? 

Mr. McCuistion. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And the name of Albert Wallach ? 

Mr. McCuistion. In addition to a medical unit which we had 
nothing to do with, that was going to Spain, 

Mr. Matthews. In Spain did you ever see George Mink? 

Mr. McCuistion. Only once. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7827 

Mr. Ma'ii^hkws. Will you i)lo;»se relate the circuuistances under 
-which you sa\Y Georue jNIiiik in Spain? 

Mr. MoCrisTiON. I saw Georjre Mink and Tony DeMaio and Cap- 
tain Cohn on ^lay 2. lO^^S. in a little cafe — one of the nicer but small 
cafes on the Eanibla de Catalonia. I .saw Tony DeMaio kill '2 men 
in that cafe. 

Mr. ]Ma'itiiews. Will you jilease describe the circumstances? 

^Iv. McCriSTioN. At that time they were havin<>- a round-up of 
sti'aL''.ii"lers. a general round-up of a few of us who were out of the 
briiiade. I was in the International Brio;ade at that time. I was 
carryinjr a ministry of war letter that protected me somewhat from 
the International Brigade police, and we were circulatino; more or less 
freely, but there were several hundred members of the International 
Briijade that were livin<>- under cover in Barcelona, looking for a 
chance to get away on the ships, and through the help of some in- 
fluential Spaniards we established a means of stowing these guys 
away in Barcelona and helping them get out of the country. 

We helped a large number of French, English, Americans, and 
A'ai-ious others to get out of the country. SeA'eral — a number of 
Spaniards helped ns. Especially we were being helped by the Span- 
ish Federation of Labor, which is similar to the Mexican Federation 
of Labor and controlled largely by the anarchists. 

On this occasion we were following DeMaio when he met the other 
two. 

Mr. VooRHis. Who is "we" ? 

Mr. McCuisTioN. A group of us — some Spaniards and some Cubans 
and myself that were in this grouj) helping guys ont of the country 
that had legal papers to be in Barcelona. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Can you give the names of any of those people ? 

Mr. McCuiSTiox. Yes; I can give the names of several of them. 
One of them was George Heins. Another a boy from Buffalo called 
Kelke. Those are the only Americans that I can remember roughly 
by name. I think they are both alive. 

Mr. VooKHis. AVere they with you at this time ? 

Mr. McCuisTiON. Yes, sir. And we followed him into this cafe 
and just as we got into the cafe we heard the shooting and we naturally 
didn't want to be around there for fear we would get shot ourselves. 
We knew wliat was taking place because it was an everyday occurrence 
with other groups. 

It hadn't been so frequent with the American grou])S. but the 
American that was killed at that time was going under the name of 
Matthews. He had a State Department passport issued under the 
name of Aronofski — I think that was his correct name, but he was 
using the name "'Matthews" over there, and he was shot through the 
side — through the temple, right in here [indicating]. 

The other fellow wasn't quite dead. His name was Moran, an 
Englishman. He was taken away to the hospital. Whetlier he 
died or not, I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Who shot them? 

Mr. ]Mc(\ti.stiox. Tony DeMaio shot them. 

Mr. I)E>rpsEY. Why ? 

Mr. M( CuisTiox. Because they were stragglers, and because they 
had evidentlv started an altercation or something when he tried to 



7828 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

arrest them, probabl}'. He used it as an excuse. That is wliat he 
later said to me personally, that he had to do it to save his own life, 
but it was ridiculous. There were four or five in his party, but onl}^ 
two of them. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did you actually see that ? 

Mr. McCuisTiON. I actually saw it. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Geor<2:e Mink with him at the time? 

Mr. McCuiSTioN. Yes ; George Mink was with him at the time. 

Mr. Matthews. Was George Mink going under any other name? 

Mr. McCuisTTON. George Hirsch — frequently used that name. 

Mr. MATTHEW^s. Do you know whether Albert Wallach was able to 
get aboard the American steamship Oregon? 

Mr. McCuisTioN. Yes, sir. Albert Wallach was stowed away on 
board the American steamship Oregon with the assistance of several 
members of the crew. I think one of them was named Samuel Singer. 
He is at present a member of the sailors' union of the Pacific coast 
and is in San Francisco at this time. He was aboard the ship for 
10 days. He got careless and he came out and was taken off the ship 
by Tony DeMaio and others, and placed in prison in Barcelona. 

Mr. Matthews. In what prison ? 

Mr. McCuisTioN. He was placed in the military prison, either at 
Karl Marx Barracks or up on the hill or at San Sebastian. I don't 
know^ which one he was placed in. 

Mr. Matthfavs. Did you meet DeMaio on any other occasion than 
the one you describe ? 

Mr. McCuiSTioN. Yes. At one time I was placed in military 
charge of the Anglo-Americans at the concentration camp at Camp 
Luukas. They had some there for repatriation and some for dis- 
ciplinary action. DeMaio was sent there as a political commissar, 
and I didn't want the job very bad anyway, and I had the full charge 
of issuing passes, so I issued everybody that wanted a pass and then 
I wrote myself out one and left. 

Mr. Matthews. You were trying to assist the men to get away — 
escape ? 

Mr. McCuiSTioN. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And DeMaio was there at the time, was he? 

Mr. McCxtistion. Yes. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Was he there when you wrote your own ticket 
for leave? 

Mr. McClistion. No. 

Mr. Matthfavs. When did he leave Camp Luukas? 

Mr. McCuiSTioN. He left after they brought me l)ack to Camp 
Luukas when all of us were transferred together to Tarragona and 
placed in the disciplinary company in Tarragona under Maj. Allen 
Johnson. And at that time Tony DeMaio went into Albacete with 
the other brass hats and got himself a job as brigade policeman. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you arrested after you attempted to get away 
on that pass? 

Mr. McCuiSTioN. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you were placed in prison? 

Mr. McCuisTiON. In Albacete. 

INIr. Matthews. Under Allen Johnson ? 

Mr. McCuisTioN. No. In Albacete the prison was commanded by 
a younger brother of Colonel Copic. He was later arrested himself 
for theft from the Spanish Government. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7829 

Mr. Matthews. AVluit was the cliurge against you? Desertion? 

Mr. McCuisTioN. The char<re was just a conjjrlomeration of charges. 
They never read any official charges. They just threw you in jail, 
and you stayed there until you got out or were killed. 

Mr. Maitiikws. Do you know of any other eases where violence 
was used against American boys? 

Mr. McCrisTioN. Yes. In the case of "Wallach. There was vio- 
lence used against him a numlier of times at Camp Luukas. Why, 
one time Tony DeMaio slapped him around. That was after I had 
been relieved \)f any authority and a fellow by the name of Howe, 
that is sailing under the name of Jameson, now an active seaman, was 
also beaten up pretty badly and thrown into prison at Chinchilla and 
held there for -i months under sentence of death. 

Other cases of violence were against Virgil Morris. Just any num- 
ber that I can name. Another one Fred Miller. He is over in 
Baltimore now. I think he was subsequently captured and spent a 
year in the Franco prison. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the cases of the court martial of two 
Finnish-Americans and one Canadian-Finn? 

Mr. McCi'iSTiox. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall their names? 

^Ir. McCnsTiox. Yes. I remember one was named Oskar and one 
was named Niemin. and the other was Kul 

Mr. Matthews. K-u-1-k-s-i-n-e-m? 

Mr. McCi'iSTiox. Something like that. It was a Finnish name, 
I remember. 

Mr. Matthews. "What do you know about those cases? 

]Mr. MtCi'iSTiox. They were at a stragglers camp just north of 
Tarragona on the beach. I forget the exact name of the camp, but 
they were bringing all the stragglers in there from Barcelona and 
other ])oints of Spain, and putting them in this camp and determin- 
ing whether they were to be sent to concentration camps, sent to 
priscm labor battalions, or sent back to the front as ordinary soldiers. 

In addition they had the normal brigades — parts of the brigades 
that had scattered, and they were re-forming the brigade at this 
place. 

At that time these three fellows, in particular little Niemi, had 
one of the best records in the whole army over there. They went 
into Tarragona on a drunk, and they were a little bit late getting 
back, and the Spanish guard placed them under arrest, and they 
broke out of the Tarragona jail and came back and reported in to 
the military conunand themselves. 

They were given a trial and given 30 days, and then at the instance 
of the political commissars, they were retired and sentenced to death. 

They drew up some eight or nine hundred men that were there 
in a three-cornered formation facing the beach, and they selected 
18 men at random from the English and Americans to act as an 
execution squad — as a firing squad. 

Mr. Maithews. Under wliose command was that execution squad? 

Mr. McCnsTTON. Under the command of a fellow by the name 
of Sullivan. I don't know him very well. But that was the fellow 
that was commanding the squad. And the ambulance brought the 
three men up. They lined them up on the beach. All of us — we 
even thought at that time that it was just going to be a show and 



7830 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

they were going to get a last-minute pardon or something like that. 
We couldn't possibly conceive of any nien being killed for going 
out on an ordinary drunk. 

And they lined them up with their backs facing the Mediterranean. 
And took three volleys from the firing squad to kill them. And 
Sullivan had to go up and shoot them in the head after that — after 
the first two volleys Niemi was still standing on his feet and holding 
his hands up in the Red front salute. 

Mr. VooRHis. What was the motive for that? 

Mr. McCuisTiON. At that time motives were taking place at the 
rate of 25 to 50 a day, and the object to terrorize the men so that 
they wouldn't attempt to desert or wouldn't disobey the military 
commands. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did you see that happen ? 

Mr. ]\IcCuiSTiON. I saw th;it happen personally. 

Mr. VooRHis. About Tony DelSIaio : Was that the same man that 
testified here today? 

Mr. ]\IcCuisTioN. That was the same man. He knows me well. 
He admitted he knew me on the stand. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have any other contacts with Tony De- 
Maio at any time in Spain ? 

Mr. McCi^isTiON. In the month of May in Barcelona, after this 
other thing happened, why, I was approached by Tony DeMaio 
and told that Bob Minor wanted to see me at the Majestic Hotel. 

I went up to the Majestic Hotel and Bob Minor and Captain Cohn 
and one or two others were in there and nuide me a proposition if 
I would help round up the guys and break up desertions by ship, 
they would see I got sent home right away. 

I refused it, and I went down the rear elevator and took out for 
the border. 

Mr. Matthews. You testified as to how you got out of Spain? 

Mr. McCuistion. Yes. 

Mr. Maithews. That is all. 

The Chairman. Any questions? All right, stand aside. 

Tlie committee is sitting now as a subcommittee composed of Mr. 
Voorhis, the chairman, and Mr. Mason. 

Mr. Matthew^s. The next witness is Gerald Cooke. 

TESTIMONY OF GERALD COOKE, FORMER MEMBER, ABRAHAM 

LINCOLN BRIGADE 

Tlie Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear 
to tell the truth, the Avliole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. CooKE. I do. 

Mv. Matthews. Give your full name, please. 

Mr. CooKE. Gerald Cooke. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born? 

Mr. CooKE. United States. 

]Mr. Matthews. Where? 

Mr. CooKE. St. Louis, Mo. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. CooKE. April 30, 1916. ; 



ux-a.mi:ki("ax rue )1'ac;axi)a activities 7831 

Mr. Mattiikws. Have you ever ^one under any other name than 
the name "(ierald C'of^ke'" ^ 

Mv. Cooke. 1 have not. 

Mr. Matthews. When yt)U went to Spam did you travel on an 
American i)ass[)()rt ? 

]yrr. Cooke. 1 di(h 

Mr. Matthews. Was it issued in your own name? 

Mr. Cooke. It was. 

]\rr. Matthews. Did it hear a notation it was not good for travel 
in vSpain? 

Mr. Cooke. It did. 

Mr. Matthews. When you applied for that passport, what did 
you state as the purpose for youi' traveling in Europe? 

Ml'. Cooke. I don't recall. 

Mr. Matthews. It did not include a visit to Spain, however. You 
did not state your purpose was to visit Spain for any reason? 

Mi-. Cooke. T did not. 

^Ir. Matthews. You knew that you were going to Spain, did you, 
when you applied for your passport? 

Mr. Cooke. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhatever reason it was that you gave them it was 
a false one; is that correct? 

Ml-. Cooke. I don't recall what I said. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you in Spain? 

Ml-. CooKE. Nineteen months. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. CooKE. I am not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have vou ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Cooke. I have not. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the Young 
Communist League? 

Mr. Cooke. I have not. 

^fr. ^Matthews. What is your present position or occupation? 

]Mr. CooKE. I am— you mean wliat is my employment? 

^Iv. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Cooke. I am employed by the organization of which I am a 
member. 

^Ir. Matthews. Now. what is the organization? 

Mr. Cooke. Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhat is your position in the Veterans of the 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

^Ir. Cooke. I am the national secretary. 

Mr. ^LATTI^:ws. Mr. Keller. I think it was. this morning testified 
about an association of some 57 organizations. I don't remember 
the exact name of the a.ssociation. Can you give us the name of that 
association? 

]\Ir. Cooke. AVhat association is that? 

^Iv. Matthews. It was an association of some 57 organizations 
which he said were the auspices for picketing in front of the French 
consulate in New York recently. Do you know the name of the 
organization ? 

94931— 40— vol. 13 11 



7832 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Cooke. The Emergency Conference to Save the Spanish Ref- 
ngees was set up and it consisted of some 50 organizations, of whicli 
the Veterans of the Abraham Lincohi Brigade is a part. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any position in that organization? 

Mr. CoOKE. No. , 

]Mr. Matthews. Or in that conference? 

Mr. CooKE. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. Yon were subpenaed to appear before this com- 
mittee as an officer of the Veterans of the Abraham Lincohi Brigade, 
were you? 

Mr. Cooke. I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Were j'ou required by the subpena to bring any 
records of any kind? 

Mr. Cooke. I believe the subpena read something about records 
in some organization. It did not name any organization. 

Mr. Mattiieavs. Now, where were you served this subpena? 

]\Ir. Cooke. In the doorway of the magistrate court in the city of 
New York. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not bring any records? 

Mr. Cooke. I did not. 

Mr. ISIatthews. Of the organization with you? 

Mr. Cooke. I did not. 

The Chairman. Have you the subpena ? 

Mr. Lynch. Yes. 

(Mr. Schwab lianding paper to Mr. Lynch.) 

Mr. Schwab. Will that subpena be returned to me? 

Mr. Lynch. Certainly. Do you have record of the organization 
of which you are a member? 

Mr. Cooke. Have I what ? 

Mr. Lynch. Records of the organization of Avhich you are a 
member ? 

Mr. Cooke. What do you mean? 

Mr. Lynch. Is that question plain to you, Mr. Cooke, or not ? 

Mr. Cooke. No; it is not. 

Mr. Lynch. What is your position? 

Mr. Cooke. I am the national secretary of the Veterans of the 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade. 

Mr. Lynch. Do they have any records? 

Mr. Cooke. They do not. 

Mr. Lynch. No records at all? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

The Chairman. They have a record of membership? 

Mr. Cooke. They do not. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have a bank account ? 

Mr. Cooke. We do. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any financial records? 

Mr. Cooke. We have. 

Mr. Matthews. Theii you do have records? 

Mr. Cooke. I misuudei-stood the question then. 

Mr. Matthews. He asked you if you had any records and you 
said "none at all." 

Mr. Cooke. In my capacity I have no records ; no. 

Mr. Lynch. Who has the records? 

Mr. Cooke. The financial records? 



UN-AMEKIOAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 783S 

Mr. Lynch. Yes. 

Ml'. Cooke. The financial records are in charge of the bookkeeper. 

Mr. Lynch. AVho is the bookkeeper? 

Mr. Cooke. An eni])loyee of the organization. 

Mr. Lynch. "What is her name ? 

ISIr. CooKE. Miss Biuiin. 

Mr, Lynch. First name? 

Mr. Cooke. Vera, 

Mr. Lynch, Spell the last name, 

Mr, Cooke. B-u-n-i-n, 

Mr, Lynch, What is her address? 

ISIr, Cooke, I don't know. 

Mr. Lynch. Address of the office? 

Mr. Cooke. 55 West Forty-second Street. 

Mr. Lynch. Does she work there? 

]Mr. Cooke. Yes, 

Mr, Lynch. Paid a salary? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

Mr. CooKE. 55 West Forty-second Street. 

]Mr. CooKE. We c^o. 

]\Ir. Lynch. Do you have a social-security number for her? 

Mr, CooKE. No. 

The Chairman. She has charge of the financial records of the 
organization; is that true? 

Mr, CooKE. She handles the financial records — bookkeeper. 

The Chairman. She keeps records — the records are in her cus- 
tody; is that correct? 

Mr. Cooke. As the bookkeeper ; yes. 

Mv. Matthews. Do you conduct any correspondence? 

Mr. Cooke. Occasionally; yes. 

Mv. Matthews. Do vou receive letters? 

ISIr. Cooke. We do. ^ 

IMr. i\L\TTHEws. What do you do with the letters ? 

INIr. CooKE. Answer them. 

Mr. ^L\TTHEWs. Keep copies of them? 

Mr, Cooke, No. 

JNIr. Matthews. Do you file them ? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mv. jMatthews. Destroy them day by day? 

;Mr. Cooke, Yes, 

The Chairman, You destroy all the correspondence you receive. 
You get a letter, answer it, and 3^ou destroy the original and the copy 
of your answer ? 

Mv. Cooke. As the letter is received and answered it is tossed in the 
"wastebasket ; yes, sir. 

The Chair^sian. And you keep no records of the members? No 
written I'ecords anywhere of the members? 

iVIr. Cooke. No. 

The Chairman. Does any one carry that in his mind — in his 
memory ? 

Mr. Cooke. Carry what in his memory? 

The Chairman. The names of the members? Does anyone know 
who the members are ? 



7834 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Cooke. There are some fifteen hundred members, so therefore 
no one carries it in his mind. 

The Chatriman. Xo one knows, therefore who the members are? 
Mr. Cooke. No, naturally. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know there are fifteen hundred 
members. 

^Ir. Cooke. As the men returned home it is a matter of common 
knowledire from the passenger lists of all the shi])s that returned. 
We received national-wide publicity. 

Mr. Lynch. It is an estimate of fifteen hundred? 
(No answer.) 

Mr. Lynch. Is there any reason why you destroy the papers and 
letters? 

Mr. CooKE. None whatsoever. 

]\Ir. Lynch. You have no pride in the list of membership, so you 
don't have a name you can refer to ? 
Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mr. Lynch. You wouldn't know who they are? 
Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you been national secretary? 
Mr. CooKE. Less than 4 months. 

]\rr. Matthews. Were records destroyed from day to day? Was 
that the procedure when you took over the national secretaryship? 

Mr. CooKE. I don't understand. Do you mean records destroyed? 
Do you mean correspondence destroyed daily ? 
Mr. Matthews. Anythino- that came in. 

Mr. Cooke. Correspondence, as I stated before, was destroj^ed. 
Mr. Matfhews. Has that alwavs been a custom of the organization 
since you were connected with it? 
Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were there any records when you took over the 
office of the secretary? 

Mr. Cooke. There was not. 

Mr. Lynch. Are there any other employees other than the lady 
whom you mentioned a few moments ago ? 
Mr. Cooke. Myself. 
Mr. Lynch. You are the only two? 
Mr. CooKE. That is correct. 
Mr. Lynch. Are you paid a salary? 
Mr. Cooke. Am I paid a salary ? 
Mr. Lynch. Yes. 
ISfr. Cooke. Yes, sir ; I am. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you have a social-security number? 
Mr. Cooke. I have. 

Mr. Lynch. But there isn't one for the young lady ? 
Mr. CooKE. I didn't say she didn't have one. I thought you meant 
is social security paid for her. 
Mr. Lynch. Is it? 

Mr. CooKE. No ; and for myself neither, 

Mr. Matthews. How many of the fifteen hundred members who 
are veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade are members of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Cooke. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Matthews. You have no idea about that? 



UN-AMElilCAN I'KOPAGAXDA ACT1V1T1P:S 7835 

Mr. Cooke. No, sir. .... 

The Chairman. Do they pay duesi Do they have initiation fees 

or pay diies^ . n -, 

Mi\ Cooke. Each post conducts its own collection ot dues, and so 

forth. 

The Chairman. How many posts do you have? 

Ml". Cooke. There are some 10 posts. 

The Chairman. Ten posts? AVhere are they located? 

Mr. CooKE. Throughout the country in various cities. 

The Chairman. xVnd each post has a commander? 

Mr. Cooke. That is true. 

The Chairman. And each member pays dues? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

The Chairman. What are the dues? 

Mr. Cooke. What are the dues for each member ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Cooke. Twenty-five cents a month for those employed. 

The Chairman. Twenty-five cents a month for employed members? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is the initiation fee? 

Mr. CooKE. There is no initiation fee. 

The Chairman. And when they pay their 25 cents what propor- 
tion of that goes to the national office? 

Mr. CooKE. Well, technically 50 percent of the dues is supposed 
to come to the national office. 

The Chairjuan. Fifty percent is supposed to go to the national 
office, and 50 percent is retained by the local post ? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

The Chairman. Does the local post keep any records? 

Mr. CooKE. I couldn't say about that. 

The Chairman. Do you belong to any local post ? 

Mr. Cooke. I do. 

The Chairman. Which one? 

Mr. Cooke. The New York Post. 

The Chairman. Does your post keep any records ? 

Mr. Cooke. I couldn't say. I have no official position in the post 
other than a member. 

The Chairman. Who is the commander of this post? 

Mr. Cooke. Mr. Keller. 

The Chairman. The man who testified here today? 

Mr. CooKE. That is right. 

The Chairman. He is commander of the New York Post? 

Mr. CooKE. That is right. 

The Chairman. How many posts do you have in New York? 

Mr. Cooke. One. 

The Chaikman. You have a post in Chicago? 

Mr. Cooke. Right. 

The Chair:man. AVho is commander of that post? 

(No answer.) 

The Chairman, Do you knoAv? 

Mr. Cooke. I could not say — I don't know. 

The Chairman. Do you have a post in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Cooke. I don't recall. 



7836 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. You don't know? 

Mr. Cooke, It is possible. I don't recall offhand. 

The Chairman. Give us the name of any other city where you 
have a post? 

Mr. Cooke. There is a post in San Francisco. 

The Chairman. Who is the commander there ? 

Mr. Cooke. I don't know the commander. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have a list of these commanders in your 
office? 

Mr. CooKE. No. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Any list of the posts? 

Mr. Cooke. No lists at all. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there anybody in the national headquarters who 
knows where the posts are? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Nobody there knows who they are or where they 
are? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Nobody there knows where the commanders live? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

Mr. Matthews. If you wanted to get in touch with one of them 
you would not be able to ? 

Mr. Cooke. He would get in touch with us. 

Mr. Matthews. That is, you are cut off from getting in touch 
with them ; is that correct ? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. They would get in touch with us. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there a meeting celebrating the anniversary 
of some phase of the Spanish civil war this Sunday night in New 
York City? 

Mr. CooKE, I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. You haven't heard anything about any such anni- 
versary celebration ? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know General Vijar is speaking in New 
York City? 

Mr. Cooke. I do not. 

Mr. Matthews. You know who General Vijar is, don't you? 

Mr. Cooke. I do. 

Mr. Lynch. How much is your salary? 

Mr. Cooke. $21 a week. 

Mr. Lynch. How much is the girl's salary ? 

Mr. Cooke. $21. 

Mr. Lynch. The same? 

Mr. Cooke. $21; yes. 

Mr. Lynch. How much is your office rent? 

Mr. Cooke. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman. I would like to 
know what this has to do with the purpose of this organization ? 

Mr. Lynch. Has a great deal to do with it, as you will see in a 
very few moments. 

The Chairman. All right ; let us proceed. 

Mr. Cooke. Am I not entitled to an explanation of what it has to 
do with it? 

The Chairman. You want an explanation? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7537 

Mr. Cooke. As to wliat our office rent has to do Mitli the purposes 
for which this committee was formed. 

The Chairman. Well, that is something for the committee to de- 
tennine. 

IMr. Cooke. And I have a right to know it. 

The Chaiioian. Is your organization a front for the Communist 
Party ? 

Mi: CooKE. Is that it? 

The Chaimax. Is it? 

Mr. Cooke. Xo; it has no political affiliation whatever. 

The Chairman. You are not a member of the Communist Party? 

INIr. CooKE. I am not. 

The Chairman. You went to Spain to fight for democracy? 

Mr. CooKE. I did. 

The Chair3ian. And you would fight for this country in a war 
against Russia, wouldn't you? 

Mr. Cooke. The answer to that — I can think of no better answer 
than to quote jNIr. Wollf , who answered that this afternoon. 

The Chairman. That satisfies you; his answer? 

Mr. CoOKE. That satisfies me. There is no war at present be- 
tween the United States and 

The Chairman. Is that the attitude of the members of your post? 

]\lr. CooKE. I could not vouch for the members of my post — what 
their attitude would be. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Lynch. How much is the office rent, Mr. Cooke ? 

Mr. CooKE. $4.5 a month. 

Mr. Lynch. And do you have expenses such as postage and sta- 
tionery, et cetera ? 

Mr. CooKE. That is all handled by the girl. I don't know^ any- 
thing about that. 

Mr. Lynch. There would be some expense, wouldn't there? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lynch. And do all of the fifteen hundred members that you 
have pay dues? Are they all dues-paying at 25 cents a month or are 
some of them nonpaying members when unemployed? 

Mr. CooKE. That is right. 

Mr, Lynch. About how many would you say are paying dues at 
25 cents a month of the fifteen hundred members? 

Mr. CooKE. I couldn't say — I have no idea. 

]Mr. Lynch. Half or three-quarters? 

Mr. CooKE. I have no idea whatsoever. 

The Chairman. How much money did you get in last month? 

Mr. Cooke. I don't know that. 

The Chairman. Who knows? 

Mr. Cooke. The bookkeeper knows that. 

The CHAiR:\rAx. You know nothing about the finances? 

Mr. Cooke. That is correct. 

The Chairman. What does your office call for ? 

Mr. Cooke. To assist the national committee in conducting the 
business of the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade nationally. 

The Chairman, You know nothing about the records? 

Mr. Cooke. I know nothing whatsoever about the financial records. 

The Chairman. What business do you assist in? 



7838 UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Cooke. As I believe I answered before, I carry on communi- 
cations with the posts, being- the national secretary. 

The Chairman. But you don't know where the posts are? 

Mr. CooKE. I don't offliand; I don't know, no; but when I receive 
correspondence from the posts I answer it. 

The Chairmax. You answer it ? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. But if you "svanted to tjet hold of the post or to write 
to some man of a particular post you wouldn't know the address 
until he wrote to you first ? 

Mr. Cooke. I wouldn't be able to get in touch with any man in the 
country. 

Mr. Lynch. I see. Now, Mr. Cooke, has anyone contributed to 
the organization other than the membership? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. Who ? 

Mr. Cooke. Quite a few American people — quite a few thousand. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you have a list of the people? 

Mr. Cooke. No ; I have no idea. I have no list of these people. 

Mr. Lynch. You have received contributions from them? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And how much do those contributions amount to? 

Mr. CooKE. I know nothing whatsoever of the financial records. 

Mr. Lynch. Well, you know you got contributions? 

Mr. Cooke. I know we received contributions, but I don't know 
the amount. 

Mr. Lynch. Who told you? 

Mr. Cooke. The bookkeeper. 

Mr. Lynch. Are you reciving those contributions regularl}'? 

Mr. CoOKE. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. Every month? 

Mr. CooKE. Every day. 

Mr. Lynch. Contributions come in from citizens of the country? 

Mr. Cooke. From citizens of the United States; yes. 

Mr. Lynch. Do you answer those contributions with a letter of 
thanks? 

Mr. CooKE. Yes. 

Mr. Lynch. And then destroy the copy? 

Mr. Cooke. There is no copy made to be destroyed. 

Mr. Lynch. Nothing to be ashamed about that organization, is 
there? 

Mr. Cooke. Nothing w^hatsoever. 

The Chairman. About what? 

Mr. CooKE. The finest body of Americans in this country. 

The Chairman. What about this bookkeeper? Have you ever 
seen the books kept by the bookkeeper ? 

Mr. Cooke. Seen them? Inspected them? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

The Chairman. You never look at them ? 

Mr. Cooke. No ; I have no interest in them. 

The Chairman. Anyone else ever look at them outside of the 
bookkeeper ? 

Mr. Cooke. They are audited. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7839 

The Chairman. Who audits them? 

Mr. Cooke. I don't know his name. 

The Chaikmax. Is it a public accountant? 

(No answer.) 

The CiiAHiMAX. You liave been auditing them every year< 

Mr. Cooke. I only know for the last 4 months. 

The Chairman. How often does he audit them ? 

Mr. Cooke. I don't know that. 

The Chairman. You don't know how often? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

The Chairman. AVho directs him to audit them? 

Mr. Cooke. The bookkeeper. 

The Chairman. The bookkeeper? The person m charge of the 

books ? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes. 

The Chairman. Who pays him? The bookkeeper? 

Mr. Cooke. The person in charge of the finances. 

The Chairman. That is the bookkeeper ? 

Mr. Cooke. Correct. 

The Chairman. When the bookkeeper wants the books audited the 
bookkeeper notifies the auditor? 

Mr. Cooke. That is correct. That is the position of a bookkeeper 
and secretary. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. AYho pays you your salary check? 

Mr. Cooke. The organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Who signs it? 

Mr. Cooke. I do. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Do you investigate to find out if you have a bank 
balance before you sign checks? 

Mr. CooKE. No. 

Mr. MATrHEWs. You just sign the checks without regard to the 
balance in the bank? 

Mr. CooKE. That is correct, because all of that — all that knowledge 
is known to the bookkeeper. 

The Chairman. You don't know liow much money you have in the 
bank? That is up to the bookkeeper? 

Mr. CooKE. I could not say how much we have. 

Mr. Matthews. You ask her if it is all right to sign a check? 

Mr. Cook. She gives me the check to sign so it must be okay. 

!Mr. Lynch. Where do you bank — wliat bank ? 

Mr. Cooke. Amalgamated Bank of New York. 

^fr. Lynch. Where it is located ? 

^fr. Cooke. Fifteenth Street and Broadway, I believe. 

The Chairman. Do vou do any other kind of work? What is your 
trade? 

Mr. Cooke. I have no trade. 

The Chairman. Did you ever do any work? 

Mr. Cooke. Yes ; I did. 

The Chairman. What did you work at? 

Mr. Cooke. I worked as an office clerk, department-store clerk, ship- 
ping clerk. 

The Chairman. Do vou belong to a union? 



7840 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Cooke. At the moment ; no. 

The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to a union ? 

Mr. CooKE. I have. 

The Chairman. "VVliich one? 

Mr. CooKE. I belonged to Local 16 of the United OfRce and Profes- 
sional Workers of America. 

The Chairman. Did you hold any office in that organization? 

Mr. Cooke. No. 

The Chairjman. You haven't been a member for some time ? 

Mr. Cooke. That is right. 

The Chairman. At present your work is solely in connection with 
this organization? 

Mr. CooKE. Solely with the veterans; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that Mr. Browder testified before this 
committee that a majority of tlie Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln 
Brigade were members of the Communist Party? 

]Mr. Cooke. I don't know that, no. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read you the testimony, first, from Mr. 
Browder's book, on page 182 : 

Not the least source of our pride is the fact that over sixty per cent of the 
Lincoln Battalion members are members of the Communist Party — 

and then on page 4449, of the hearings of the Special Committee on 
Un-American Activities, INIr. Browder modified that slightly by 
saying : 

I would say about fifty-five to sixty per cent — 

and then he was quoted this passage from the book: 

Not the least source of our pride is the fact that over sixty per cent of the 
Lincoln Battalion members are members of the Communist Party. 

And Mr. Browder said, "Yes." 

Would vou say that Mr. Browder was incorrect in making that 
statement ? 

Mr. Cooke. Not being a member of the Communist Party myself 
I would say that I haven't the same sources of information as Mr. 
Browder. Therefore, I would say that I don't know anything about 
it. I have no way of knowing who is a Communist and who is not. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't challenge his statement? 

Mr. CooKE. I do not challenge — I do not know. 

The Chairman. The fact is that your organization is not con- 
cerned with whether a member is a Communist or not? 

Mr. Cooke. That is correct. We have no committee to investigate 
them or anything like that. 

The Chairman. You don't inquire into them at all? 

Mr. Cooke. That is correct. 

Tlie Chairman. Any other questions? If n.ot, you are excused. 

All vour witnesses are excused, Mr. Attornev. 

The committee will stand adjourned subject to call. 

(Whereupon at 6 p. m., the hearing adjourned without date.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PKOPACUNDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



[ FEIDAY, APRIL 19, 1940 

House of Representati\'es, 
Special Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Washington,, D. G . 

The committee met at 1:30 p. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman) 
presiding. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

The chair designates a subcommittee composed of the chairman. 
Who is your first witness, Mr. Matthews ? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Frantz. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. 

TESTIMONY OF LAURENT BROWN FRANTZ 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

The Chairman. And what is the name of the attorney? 

Mr. Fleischer, Fleischer — Louis Fleischer, 152 West Forty-second 
Street, New York. 

The Chairman. Mr. Frantz. do you mind standing while the oath 
is administered to you, please? 

(The witness standing.) 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

ZVlr. Frantz. I do. 

The Chairman, All right. 

Mr. Fleischer. Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Matthews starts interro- 
gating this Avitness, may I be permitted to make a brief statement on 
behalf of this witness who is sought to be examined before you? 

The Chairman, With reference to what? 

Mr, Fleischer. With refei-ence particularly to the manner in which 
this witness was held incommunicado by representatives of the police 
department of the city of Birmingham, and by a representative of 
your committee. 

The Chairman. Suppose you let him testify to the facts. 

Mr. Fleischer. I think that if such was presented it might aid the 
committee here. 

The Chairman. We will ask him because he is the witness, and 
naturally you cannot testify about this matter unless you were under 
oath and knew about it of your own knowledge. 

7841 



7842 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Suppose tliat we <»;ive the witness an opportunity to make a state- 
ment in that respect ? 

Mr. Fleischer. Very well, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. I will ask the witness: What is your 
name ? 

Mr. Frantz. Laurent Brown Frantz. 

The Chairman. Will you spell it so we can get it, please? 

Mr. Frantz. The last name is F-r-a-n-t-z. 

The Chaieman. First name? 

Mr. Frantz. L-a-u-r-e-n-t. 

The Chairman. Where do you live, Mr. Frantz ? 

Mr. Frantz. Birmingham. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived in Birmingham ? 

Mr. Frantz. Three months. 

The Chairman. Three months ? 

Mr. Frantz. I mean 3 years. 

The Chairman. What day was the subpena served upon you ? 

Mr. Frantz. On April 9, Tuesday. 

The Chairman. Where were you at the time ? 

Mr. Fr^^ntz. No; I l^eg your pardon. The subpena was served on 
April 11. I was thinking of the date of my arrest. That was April 9. 

The Chairman. Where were you at the time the subpena was 
served ? 

Mr. Frantz. In jail. 

The Chairman. In what jail? 

Mr. Frantz. The City Jail, Birmingham City Jail. 

The Chairman. Were you in jail under some warrant that had 
been issued? 

Mr. Frantz. No warrant, no, sir. 

The Chairman. When were you placed in jail? 

Mr. Frantz. I was placed in jail Tuesday afternoon, April 9. 

The Chairman. Who put you in jail? 

Mr. Frantz. City Detective Osborne of the Birmingham force. 

The Chairman. What ground did he assign for arresting you ? 

Mr. Frantz. Held for investigation. 

The Chairman. By the city authorities? 

Mr. Frantz. He did not say. He said : "Held for investigation." 

The Chairman. He did not tell you who was holding you for 
investigation? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. Well, tell us what took place. Your attorney made 
some statement and I want to afford you an opportunity to say. 

Mr. Frantz. All right, sir. It happened this way : Tuesday after- 
noon, April 9, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, I was in the office 
of Mr. Hall, who is an official of the Communist Party in Birming- 
ham. I was in that office by myself. There was a knock on the door 
and I opened it and I admitted two officers — this city detective whose 
name is Osborne and a deputy United States marshal, whose name is 
Ellis. 

Tliese two officers questioned me about where Mr. Hall was, and I 
didn't know. I told them so. And they eventually told me, although 
not mitil after they questioned me for some time, that one of these 
officers was a deputy marshal and tliat he had a Dies Committee 
subpena for Mr. Hall. 



UN-AMERICAX PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7843 

After they had asked me a «>reat nuniber of times about where 
Mr. Hall was, and I continued to tell them that I did not know; 
that I oidy knew that he was out of the city on a trip of some kind, 
the detective, Osborne, told mo that if I did not tell them imme- 
diately where Hall was that he would put me in jail and hold me 
until I did tell. 

And I continued to insist that I did not know where he was. 

So the detective then said : "Come on, I am taking you to jail." 

I asked him : ''Am I under arrest", and he said : "Yes". 

Then the thi-ee of us, the detectiA^e, the deputy marshal and myself 
went to the police headcjuarters where I was (juestioned for about 
another thirty mimites. 

I was then" booked as a vagrant suspect and taken to the jail in a 
patrol wagon. 

The Chair:man. Kow, is this an account of what happened, which 
I received in a wire from Kaymond E. Tliomason, United States 
marshal. I will read it to you and ask you, under your oath, whether 
this is true : 

With reference to plioiie cduversiition, snbpeiias for HaU and Crouch received 
this otiice April !>. and assijined to Deputy Ellis. After search of city Deputy 
learned men had fled the district and were said to be in Knoxville. Tennessee. 
Returns made to Serjeant-at-arms cm the morning of April 10 setting forth this 
information. On the afternoon of April 10 investigator Barker came to this 
ottice at which time he delivered to ^Marshal subpenas for \Virt R. Taylor, 
Laurent Frantz and Robert Hall, this being the second subpena for Hall. UiKin 
investigation found that Frantz was in the custody of City of Birmingham 
having been arrested twenty-four hours prior to the time of the arrival of 
Barker in Birmingham. Marshal requested city authorities to advise him as to 
date and hour Frantz would be released. City authorities advised Marshal at 
one p. m.. April 11 th that Frantz would be released at 2 p. m., April 11. Deputy 
Ellis went to the city .lail and served Frantz on his release by the city and 
return was made to' tiiis effect to the Dies Committee. On April 12 Hall 
returned to Birmingham and was served by Deputy Ellis in his office and a 
return to this effect has been made to the Dies Committee. There was no 
understanding between the Marshal and the City authorities in reference to 
Frantz being held by the city other than the Marshal would be notified when 
Frantz was released." 

Is that true or is it false ? 

Mr. Frantz. T am not in a position to know whether that is true 
or false, because that took place while I was in the jail, held incom- 
municado. 

The Chairman. I may say 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know anything about it. 

The Chairman. I may say for your benefit the instructions of this 
committee were that a subpena be placed in the hands of the marshal 
to serve you, which of course is the legal power of this committee 
to do. 

Xow, ]\Ir. Barker, w ill you raise j'our right hand and be sworn at 
this point ? 

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. BARKER. INVESTIGATOR, COMMITTEE 

ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothiug but the ti'uth, so helj) you God? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You are an investigator for this committee, are 
you not, Mr. Barker? 



7844 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; Mr. Voorhis is present, Mr. Chairman. 
Will you have the record show that? 

The Chairman. The chair announces a subcommittee composed of 
the chairman, Mr. Voorhis, of California, and Mr. Mason, of Illinois. 
Mr. Barker, you went to the city of Birmingham, did you not? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For the purpose of serving subpenas upon or pro- 
curing the service of subpenas upon certain witnesses? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you deliver to the marshal a subpena for 
Laurent Frantz ? 

Mr. Barker. Laurent Brown Frantz. 

The Chairman. Laurent Brown Frantz. 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What day was it that you delivered this subpena 
to the marshal. 

Mr. Barker. The date appears on the original ; April 10, 1940. 

The Chairman. What else did you do after you delivered to the 
marshal the subpena? 

Mr. Barker. I delivered to him a subpena for Wirt A. Taylor and 
for Bob— or Bob Hall— Robert F. Hall. 

The Chairman. All right. Were you present when the subpena 
was served? 

Mr. Barker. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you do anything further than to turn the 
subpena over to the marshal's office? 

Mr. Barker. No, sir ; I wasn't there when the subpena was served. 
I was in Tennessee. 

The Chairman. I see. Was there anything said by anyone with 
reference to placing this man in jail? 

Mr. Barker. Well, Mr. Frantz was in jail when I got to Bir- 
mingham. 

The Chairman. He was in jail when you got to Birmingham? 

Mr. Barker. He said he was arrested on April 9. Well, I didn't 
get to Birmingham until — I didn't deliver this subpena to the mar- 
shal until April 10. 

The Chairman. You heard the telegram. In fact, the telegram is 
addressed to you by the marshal? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that substantially correct, insofar as you have 
personal knowledge of what he says here? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; that is from Mr. Raymond E. Thomason. 

The Chairman. Was anything said with reference to serving the 
subpena while this witness was in jail? 

Mr. Barker. No, sir; I requested the marshal not to serve the 
subpena upon Mr. Frantz until he had been released from jail, and 
I asked the city authorities when they were going to release Mr. 
Frantz from jail, and they said that they would release him as soon 
as the F. B. I. cleared his record. They had sent his fingerprints and 
photographs to Washington by air mail and said as soon as they 
received a wire from the F. B. I. clearing his record they would 
release him if nothing further was found against him. 

The Chairman. Well now, of course you are not in position — any 
part of that you want to contradict ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7845 

Mr. Flkisciiku. Max 1 be pennittotl at this luoinent on behalf of my 
client to ask Mr. Barker a few questions with reference to the matters 
which he has testified to^ 

The CiiAinMAN. Well, that is not customary, but in this particular 
case I see no reason to tleny you the right to ask Mr. Barker several 
questions. 

Mr. FiJiiscHER. Thank you. 

Mr. Barker, when did you first — when were you first advised that 
Mr. Frantz was in jail in Birmingham, Ala.? 

Mr. Bakkek. On the afternoon of April 9, about 4 : 30 ; I think it 
was about 4 : 30 p. m. 

Mr. Fleischer. And how did you receive that advice or notification ? 

Mr. Barker. I received it orally from E. F. Hollums, captain of 
detectives of the police department of the city of Birmingham, in his 
office. 

-Mr. Fleischer. Do you know who advised him to get in touch with 

you ( 

Mr. Barker. He did not get in touch with me. I went to his office. 

Mr. Fleischer. Were you in Birminghan on April 9, 1940 ? 

Mr. Barker. Yes. sir. I arrived on the Delta Airlines plane about 3 
o'clock, I think, at the Birmingham Airport, and I was in his office 
sometime after 4 — ^I think sometime after 4, between 4 and 4 : 30 that 
afternoon. 

Mr. Fleischer. Before you left for Birmingham, Ala., did you know 
that Mr. Frantz was in custody ? 

Mr, Barker. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. What brought you down to Birmingham? 

Mr. Barker. I went down to serve subpenas upon Bob Hall, also 
known as Rob Hall, or Robert F. Hall, and Paul Crouch. 

Mr. Fleischer. So when was the first time that you knew Mr. 
Frantz was in custody? 

Mr. Barker. On April 9. 

Mr. Fli:ischer. When you arrived in Birmingham, Ala. ? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. Who told you that? 

Mr. Barker. 1 told you his name, the chief of detectives, Mr. Hol- 
lums. Now, if you will allow me I will clarify that a little bit for you. 
I went into his office and I said — he said: "Who do you want to see?" 
And I said, "I want to see Mr. Trion," really the chief of ])olice, who 
was in the next office. I saw him at his desk and he said, "Well, wait 
a minute." He said, "You can see me," and I said, "Who are those two 
men out in the hall? Are they newspapermen?" And he said, "Not 
necessarily." Well, I said, "They are either newspapermen or they are 
not. I don't A\ant to see any newspaper men, because I am investi- 
gator for the Dies committee." And in the meantime one of these men 
out in the hall had taken a chair and blocked the door so that I couldn't 
get out of the room and he said, "Oh," he said, "you are from the Dies 
conmiittee." Pie said, "Come on in, men," and the two men came in, 
and the man that introduced himself as Osburn said, "So, your name 
is liai'ker." He said, "Can vou identifv vourself ^" And I said, "Yes." 
"Well," he said, "T thought you was Bob Hall" He said, "We have been 
trying to find Bob Hall," so the marshal, a man by the name of Ellis, 
had a subpena in his pocket for Bob Hall and thev thought I was Bob 
Hall. "^ " 



7846 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman, Have you any more material questions you want to 
ask? 

Mr. Fleischer, Yes ; quite a few questions, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman, I can't agree to "quite a few questions." We want 
to get into this matter and dispose of it, 

Mr, Fleischer. The type of questions I seek to ask I think will 

enlighten 

The Chairman. As to material questions, and let us hurry. 
Mr. Fleischer. Now, the first time you found out Mr. Frantz 
was in custody April 9, was sometime in the afternoon; is that right? 
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. Now, at that time no subpena as far as you know 
it, was not — you had no subpena for Mr. Frantz; is that correct? 
Mr. Barker. No, sir. 

Mr. Fliescher. And as far as you know, no subpena was to be 
issued for Mr. Frantz; is that correct? 
Mr. Barker. That is right, at that time. 
Mr. Fleischer. At that time? 
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. Now, did you see Mr. Frantz at all from April 9 
to April 11, 1940? 

Mr. Barker. Yes ; I saw Mr. Frantz. 
Mr. Fleischer, Where did you see him ? 
Mr. Barker. At the city jail. 
Mr. Fleischer. And what day was that ? 
Mr. Barker. That was on April 10. 

Mr. Fleischer. Did you have a subpena for him at that time? 
Mr. Barker. The marshal had the subpena. 
Mr. Fleischer. On April 10? 
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. But he was not served until April 11 : is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Barker. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Fleischer. And you were not present when the subpena was 
served on him? 

Mr. Barker. No, sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. Were you told as a matter of fact that Mr. Frantz 
was served with a subpena while he was still in custody? 

Mr. Barker, Well, I left instructions with the marshal to serve 
him when he was released fi'om the city jail, I don't know when he 
was served except by the return on the subpena, which shows it 
was executed on the 11th day of April of 1940. "Raymond E. Thom- 
ason. United States marshal, by Arthur M, Ellis, Jr,, deputy United 
States marshal," 

Mr, Fleischer. As a matter of fact, Mr. Barker, didn't you or 
someone associated with the service of subpenas or as an investigator 
for the Dies committee, leave specific instructions with the persons 
who had charge and control of the custody of this witness, that he 
was to be not released until a subpena was to be issued for him? 
Mr. Barker. No, sir. 
Mr. Fleischer. You are sure of that? 
Mr. Barker, Oh, I am positive of that. 
Mr. Fleischer. That is all. 



UN-AMEItlCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7847 

The Chaiioian. All right. Now. the Chair wants to state that it 
is rather cliffirult to got some of the witnesses. Some of them have, 
I might say for the Ijenefit of the attorney, too, in case he represents, 
any more, that some of the witnesses who find ont they are likely 
to he snh]ienaed, ])urposely leave the town or the state or hide out 
in order to aAoid being served, and even when Ave get some of them, 
we get telegrams such as this telegram : 

This is to inform you I will present myself iu answer to your subpena at 
any tiim- you desire on receipt of the necessary money for round-trip trans- 
portation by plane as well as per diem expenses. I must inform you tliat 
correspondence, membership lists of membeiship cards, financial records, and 
names and addresses of branch or unit functionaries requested iu subpeua are 
not in my po.ssession, jurisdicticm, or control. 

And another one from the west coast : 

House subpena dated April 6th has just been served upon me requiring me 
to appear forthwitli before your committee iu Washington and to bring witli 
me documents and records pertaining to Communist Party or its activities 
wliich are in my possession or under my jurisdiction or control and specifying 
all correspondence, membership lists, membership cards, financial records and 
names and addresses of all branch and unit functionaries. 

I wish to advise you that I have no such documents or records and there- 
fore cannot bring anything. Under these circumstances, does the committee 
desire my presence even if I cannot contribute anything? If you require me 
I will be forced to close my dental oflfice at great personal monetary sacrifice to 
my.self. which I can ill aft'ord and I therefore request that you advise me of a 
definite date when you desire to hear me and thus obviate the necessity of a 
long sojourn in Washington, which I am unable to undertake as I have a 
family to support. In such an event, of course, it will be necessary for you 
to defray all expen.'jes and I estimate that a minimum of four hundred dollars 
will be retpiired for this purpose, as the round-trip airplane fare alone will cost 
about two hundred seventy five dollars. I shall await further word from 
you. If I do not hear from you I will take it to mean that the committee does 
not require my presence and will accordingly forget about the whole matter. 

Mr. VooRHis. How many words in the telegram? 

The Chairman. It was sent collect, and 1 may say that some of the 
witnesses have even been brazen enough to leave word where they 
have their headquarters to tell the Dies commitee agents that they 
were going on a long vacation for their health. 

The instructions to the agents of this committee are to serve sub- 
penas upon the witnesses — leave the subpena with him. 

In El Paso at which place some four or five witnesses, if I remem- 
ber correctly, were in jail and the question of serving the subpenas 
was involved, tlie cliairman instructed that the sub})enas" be not 
served upon the witnesses while the witnesses were in jail. As a 
result of that, however. I understand that several of the witnesses 
Avhen they got out of the jail disappeared across the Mexican border. 
I merely want to make that clear. 

]\Ir. Fleischkk. For the purpose of the examination of this witness, 
Mr. Chairman, I move to strike out any and all correspondence that 
you have just read into the record, on the ground that it is not binding 
on this particular witness. 

The Chairman. Of course not. But the Chair wants to get this 
in the record inde])endent and apart from this witness' testimony, 
and will not be used in connection with his testimony. 

Mr. Fl?:i.scher. And I think the testimony of this witness will 
further indicate exactly the contrary as to what you, ]\Ir. Chairman,, 
just read. 

949.31— 40— vol. ].". 12 



7848 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. That is what I want to inquire into. 

Now, Mr. Frantz, were you seeking to avoid being served with a 
subpena ^ 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Bob Hall left Bir- 
mingham in order to prevent being served with a subpena ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know whether he did or not. 

The Chairman. Do you know when he left Birmingham? 

Mr. Frantz. He left Birmingham, 1 would estimate, about 10 days 
before I was arrested, which would have been right at or slightly 
before the 1st of April. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he returned at any time dur- 
ing those 10 days? 

Mr. Fleischer. Now, Mr. Chairman, I will object to this line of 
^questioning — if I respectfully may object to this line of questioning. 
I understand that this witness is sought to be examined as to un- 
American activities and as to his knowledge and what he has done or 
failed to do. 

The Chairman. I am trying to find out with reference to Bob 
Hall because this is vital information the committee wants to know 
and when the subpena arrived there Bob Hall was not there, and 
as I understand — understood the witness vou were in the office of 
Bob Hall. 

Mr, Frantz. I was. 

The Chairman. Are you associated with Bob Hall in any respect? 

Mr. Fleischer. I press my objection on the ground this witness is 
to be questioned only on his own specific activities or his knowledge. 

The Chairman. Your exception is duly noted, Mr. Attorney. Do 
you know Bob Hall to be an official of the Communist Party of 
Alabama ? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir; I do. 

The Chairman. Are you associated with him in any respect? 

Mr. Frantz. For the past several weeks I have been doing some 
legal research for Mr. Hall. 

The Chairisian. Legal research work for him ? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you — are you a member yourself of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. No; I am not. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Frantz. Never. 

The Chairman. Have you ever attended any fraction meetings or 
other meetings of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. You have never been present at any meeting under 
the aus]:)ices of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say I have never 
heard Communist speakers. 

The Chairman. At what occasions were these Communist meet- 
ings at which you heard the Communist speakers? 

Mr. Frantz. Mr. Hall conducted an election campaign at one 
time. I heard him speak. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7849 

The Chaikmax. Well, 1 wasn't speaking abont a general meeting 
^vhere everyone was present. I am speaking about a meeting under 
the auspices of the Communist Party. 
Mr. Fkantz, Xo. 

The CiiAiKMAx. You never have been present in such meeting As 
that? 

Mr. Fkantz. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Do you want to proceed? 
Mr. Barker. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to ask one or two questions. 
Mr. Frantz, who arrested you when you were arrested in Bir- 
mingham ? 

]Mr. Frant5. Detective Osborne. 
Mr. VooRHis, What were you arrested for ? 

Mr. Frantz. He told me that if I did not tell him where Hall 
■was he would put me in jail and hold me there until I did tell him. 
I told liim I didn't know where Hall was. He said : "Come on, we 
are going to the jail.'- I said: "Am I under arrest," and he said 
"Yes."' 

Mr. VooRHis. That had nothing to do with this committee in 
any way, did it? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir; it did. They were trying to find Mr. Hall 
so they could serve him with your subpena. 

The Chairman. You mean the marshal was trying to find Mr. 
Hall; is that what you are saying? 

]Mr. Frantz. The marshal and Detective Ellis were trying to find 
]\Ir. Hall. The marshal had the subpena. 

]Mr. Voorhis. Must have given some reason for arresting you, 
didn't they? 

Mr. Frantz. They arrested me because — that is the reason they 
gave. They instructed the desk sergeant to book me as a suspect of 
vagrancy. That is to say, Detective Osburne did. But he didn't 
_give me any such reason. The reason he gave me was that he wanted 
to hold me until I told him where Hall was. 
The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

iSIr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, you are a graduate of the University 
of Tennessee? 

Mr. Frantz. I am. 

Mr. Barker. Are vou a member of the bar, and, if so, of what 
State ? 

Mr. Frantz. Tennessee and Alabama. 
Mr. Barker. Both States? 
Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

j\Ir. Barker. What is your address in Alabama? 
Mr. Frantz. 1421 Seventeenth Avenue, South. 
Mr. Barker. Are you marrie(l, or single? 
Mr. P'hantz. Single. 

Ml'. Barker. Iliis article that appeared in the Daily Worker of 
Ajn-il 17 on the front page, under the caption, "Ask Jackson to 
Probe Illegal Arrest by Dies in Alabama.'' That article was pre- 
pared after you arrived here in Washington to appear before the 
committee and vou told your story to the reporter for the Daily 
IVorker ; is that" right ? 



7850 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Frantz. Mr. Lapin got in touch with me and asked me ques- 
tions about my exj^erience; yes. 

Mr. Barker. That is Mr. Adam Lapin, the correspondent of the 
Daily Worker over there? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. Now. when you came up here to the office you were 
represented by Mr. Sol Cohn? 

Mr. Frj^ntz. That is right. 

Mr. Barker. And is he still j^our attorney or is Mr. Louis Fleischer 
your attorney now? 

Mr. Frantz. Both. 

Mr. Barker. Both of them — both Mr. Cohn and Mr. Fleischer 
represent you? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Now, this article states here on page 21 : 

Of the most interesting aspects of this whole case was that Frantz had not 
even been iinder a Dies Committee subpena at the time he was arrested. The 
Dies Committee apparently heard that he was in jail and sent down a subpena 
which arrived after he had been held for some time. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. Frantz. I think that is a reasonable inference. There was 
nothing said to me about a sitbpena when I was arrested. 

Mr. Baisker. Now, when Cit}" Detective Osbourne came up there 
to your office, did you admit him and this deputy marshal, Ellis, to 
the office? 

Mr. Frantz. It was not my office. It was Mv. Hall's office. I 
admitted them, yes. 

Mr. Barker. Where is that office located, Mr. Frantz ? 

Mr. Frantz. In the Clark Building. 

Mr. Barker. Clark Building? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And Avhat is the room number? 

Mr. Frantz. 235. 

]Mr. Barker. Did you admit them to the office or did they push 
their way in ? 

INIr. Frantz. I opened the door, and they came in without waiting 
for any questions about that. 

Mr. Barker. What did this de])uty marshal, Arthur M. Ellis, Jr., 
say to you ? 

Mr. Frantz. He asked me where Mr. Hall was. 

Mr. Barker. Is that all he said? 

Mr. Frantz. No, that is not all he said. That is the first thing 
he said. 

Mr. Barker. What else did he say ? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, most of the talking was done by the detectives. 
The marshal informed me that he was a deputy marshal. He told 
me his name. He told me he had a Dies committee subpena for Mr. 
Hall. The marshal asked me where Mr. Hall was, and I said I 
didn't know. I did tell him and the detective tliat INIr. Hall was out 
of town on a trip. 

The marshal asked me whether I knew how he coidd get in touch 
with Mr. Hall and I said I didn't. He asked me whether I knew 
how he could, IVIr. Hall, could be reached by long-distance phone. 
I said I didn't. I believe that is all I can think of at the moment 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7S51 

that I am sure the marshal said to me rather than the detective. As 
I say. tlie detective did most of the talkinor. 

]\rr. Bakkek. Were you arrested hy the marshal or by the detective? 

^Ir. FuAXTz. liv the detective. 

Mr. Barker. And he took you to the city jail? 

Mr. Fraxtz. He took me first to the police headquarters and ques- 
tioned me tliere. Then he had me booked at the desk sergeant's 
office. 

Mr. Barker. Xow, if the marshal had made the arrest he would 
liave taken you to the United States marshal's office, you presume, 
don't you ? 

The CiiAHorAX. Well, he made it clear that the city detective was 
the one that made the arrest. 

Mr. Barker. Let me ask you this, ^Nlr. Frantz : Did the marslial 
]>articipate in the arrest of you? Did he lay hands on you or state 
that you were under arrest or anything-? 

Mr. Frantz. Xo, sir. The marshal took place — took part in this 
questiouino- in 'Mv. Hall's office. The marshal — the three of us went 
together from Mr. HalFs office to the police headquarters. The mar- 
shal was present again when I was questioned at police headquarters. 
He knew that the detective was ]:>utting me under arrest because I was 
unable to give information wliich the marshal was seeking. And he 
made no ]:)rotest. And he took part in both these questionings and he 
acconq^anied me to the police headquarters. He did not accompany 
me to the jail and neither did the detective. 

Mr. Barker. Xow, Mr. Frantz, you have been arrested before, 
liaven't you? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the question. The fact that a person 
is arrested is no indication that he has been convicted of any crime. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, I think that is a material question. 

The Chairmax. You have, no doubt, a particular reason for not 
saying 

Mr. Fleischer. For the reason, Mr. Chairman, that anybody pos- 
sibly can be arrested, and the fact a person is arrested is no indication 
or reflection on his moral character. 

The Chairman. Put the question this way 

Mr. Fleischer. "Has he ever been convicted,*'' is another story. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been indicted ? 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir. 

Mr. P'leischer. I object to that. 

The Chairman^. You propose to ask him simph' if he has been 
arrested ? 

Mr. Barker. Yes. 

Mr. Fleischer. We object to that. 

The Chairman. AVait a minute. 

Mr. Barker. In connection with connnunistic activities? 

The Chairman. Well, I don't think that the mere fact that a man 
is arrested, unless there is some conviction or tiial or something 
else, would be a material question, because a man might be arrested — 
an innocent man might be arrested and still that would not be an)' 
evidence of his guilt. 

Mr. Barker. That is true, but in this particular instance 

The Chairman. Well, proceed with the questions. I hardly be- 
lieve that, unless it becomes material in connection with some other 



7852 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

testimony at this time, I don't see how the fact that a man is arrested, 
if it is not accompanied by an indictment or trial or conviction 
should be used against him, unless tliere is some evidence showing^ 
that he was actually, as a matter of fact, disturbing the peace or 
engaged in some riotous activities. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Chairman, the purpose of the questions — the wit- 
ness testified he was not a member of the Communist Party and that 
he had not attended any meetings of the Communist Party. The 
purpose of the question, Mr. Chairman, was to show that the witness 
had been arrested previously in connection with communistic activities, 
placed in jail, and lield for investigation, and released. 

The Chairman. Well, you mean that he was arrested at some Com- 
munist demonstration ? 

Mr. Barker. No, sir. He was arrested while doing work for the 
Communist Party in Memphis, Tenn. 

Mr. Fleischer. May I suggest Mr. Barker ask him whether or 
not he was ever convicted of a crime and whether or not he was 
functioning in the capacity of a Communist at the time arrested? 

The Chairman. Well, this witness stated under oath that he was 
never at any meeting held under the auspices of the Communist Party, 
That is correct, is it, Mr. Frantz? 

Mr. Frantz. That is right. 

Mr. Fleischer. That is subject to a double interpretation, Mr, 
Chairman. 

The Chairman. I am speaking now of the Communist Party. I 
use that word. 

Mr. Fleischer. You mean a meeting where everybody attended 
was a member? 

The Chairman. I said "under the auspices of the Communist Party, 
where the Communist leaders called the meeting." I am not speaking 
of a meeting at which Communists were present. He has testified he 
wasn't present at any time at such meeting ; is that true ? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I am not sure quite what you mean b;y "under 
the auspices of." You said in regard to this election meeting that 
Mr. Hall held at which I was present. You said that that didn't 
count because that was a meeting which was open to the public. 

The Chairman. Well, that was called by the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, it was a campaign rally for a Communist candi- 
date. Presumably it was called by the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. Well, was there any disturbance at the meeting? 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Nothing occurred at that time? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember any occurrence. 

Mr. Fleischer. May I point out to you, Mr. Chairman, even if such 
a meeting were held we must assume it was a legal meeting, prop- 
erly — orderly. 

The Chairman. Nobody questions the legality of it. What we are 
trying to do is inquire iiito the facts. The Communist Party under 
the existing situation is a legal party. 

Mr. Fleischer. And anybody would have a right to attend a 
meeting. 

The Chairman. No one disputes that. 

Mr. Fleischer. That is what his question amounts to. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7853 

Mr. Bakker. Mr. Fraiitz, you are Avhat— a citizen of the United 
States? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I am. 

Mr, Barker. You were born in Tennessee? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Your fatlier is a professor at the University of 
Tennessee? 

iSIr. Fraktz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Professor of Romance Languages at the University 
of Tennessee^ 

]\Ir. Fraxtz. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Barker. And he lives at 3318 Woodhill Place in Knoxville; 
is that right? 

Mr. Frantz. That is right. 

Mr. Barker. Do vou know William Haines Spradling, also known 
as AValhiee Haines Spradling, and also known as Wallace Spradley, 
of Independence, Kan., an organizer for the Communist Party? 

Mv. Fraxtz. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that this question has 
no reference to my activities. It is a question of do I know so and so. 

The Chairman. We want to know the activities of the Communist 
Party in general and you are a witness and he asks you if you know 
the person. We are not here just to inquire solely of your own ex- 
])erience. We are asking you with I'eference to people in the move- 
ment that you know^ and that you have had contacts with. Do you 
know any such person as that? 

Mr. Fleischer. Do you know him? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You do? 

INIr. Fraxtz. Yes, sir ; I have met him. 

]Mr. Barker. You know him? 

Mr. Fleischer. He said he met him. He did not say he knew him. 

The Chairmax. He could hardly meet him unless he knew him, 
could he? Go ahead. 

]\Ir. Barker. Xow, Mr. Frantz, you were a follow-up man for Mr. 
Spradling in trying to organize a union of the Comnumist Party in 
Shelby County at Memphis ; is that right ? 

Mr. Fraxtz. No. sir. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the form of the question. Well, it has 
been answered. 

Mr. Barker. I didn't hear you. 

Mr. Fraxtz. No, sir; I was not. 

Mr. Barker. Do you know this gentleman when you see him ? His 
picture? Would you know his picture, Mr. Spradley? 

]\rr. Frantz. I think so. 

Mr. Barker. [Handing f)hotograph to the witness.] 

INIr. Fraxtz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Is that the gentleman? 

]\fr. Frantz. That is him. 

Mr. TIarker. 'Mv. Chairman, Mr. Spradley was arrested in Mem- 
phis on October 19, 1937. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to any statements made by counsel. If he 
wants to testify, let him be sworn. 

The Chairman. That is correct : don't make statements. 

Mr. Fleischer. I ask it be stricken from the record. 



7854 UN-AxMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Don't make statements. You can ask the witness 
questions. 

Mr. Barker. All rifrht. Now, Mr. Frantz, at tlie time you were 
taken into custody at Memphis, was there found upon your person 
papers indicating that you were the follow-up agent for the Com- 
munist organizer, Mr. Spradley? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that question because it assumes a state 
of facts which is not in the evidence. He said : "When you were 
arrested in Memphis, Tenn." There is no proof he was arrested in 
Memphis, Tenn. 

Tlie Chairman. Well, at any time were papers taken off of you 
indicating that you were associated with Spradlej^ in any manner^ 

Mr, Frantz. I was not associated with Spradley. 

The Chairman. I say at any time were papers taken from your 
person indicating or showing any connection between you and 
fepradley ? 

Mr. Frantz. I was — I was — I was in Memphis doing civil-rights 
work and one of the cases that I was interested in was the Spradling 
cane. 

Mr. Fleischer. As attorney? 

The Chairman. And you had papers on your person showing a 
connection between you and Spradley? 

Mr. Frantz. No. I don't understand what you mean by "con- 
nection." 

The Chairman. Well, what were the papers about? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember what I had on my person at that 
time, but I do know what I was doing in Memphis and I was 

The Chairman. I understand what you were doing in Memphis, 
but I am trying to in(|uire into whether oi- not you had any ])apers 
on your person at that time showing any kind of a connection be- 
tween you and Spradling. 

Mr. Fleischer. Mr. Chairman, will a date be fixed on that? Per- 
ha])s that will refresh his recollection. 

The Chairman. Well, he hasi already testified about the occasion 
so he evidently is not in doubt about the date. 

Mr. Barker. I have a date, Mr. Chairman, if vou want it. 

The Chairman. A^Hiat is the date? 

Mr. Barker. November 30, 1937. 

Mr. Frantz. I came to Memphis with information in my possession 
about the Spradling ca-'^e. If you call that a "connection with Mr. 
Spradling," then tliat is it. 

The Chairman. I am not calling anything; I am just asking you. 

Mr. VooRiHS. What organization were you connected with at that 
time ? 

Mr. Frantz. I was in Memphis for the National Committee for 
People's Rights. 

The Chairman. What was your position in connection with that 
Committee ? 

Mr. Frantz. I was doing mostly legal research and other work 
for the southern representative of that Committee whose office was 
in Birmingham. 

The Chairman. Who was that southern representative? 

Mr. Frantz. That was Mr. Joseph Gelders, 



UN-A.MEUKA.N I'liorAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7855 

The CiiAimiAN. Did this Mr. (lelders know — was he the one who 
eniph)yed yon in connection with this work^ 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Tlie CiiAiHMAN. Did yon know an3'one else in the or<^anization 
besides him ( 

(No answer.) 

The CiiAiKMAX. Any otliei- official in the or<ianization? 

Mr. Fkaxtz. No. sir. There Avere no officials of the organization 
in Birniin<iiiani exce])t ^Ir. Gelders himself. I was workintr for him. 

The CiiAiKMAX. Did you meet any of the officials in any other 
section of the country? 

Mr. FiJAxrz. No, sir; I did not. 

The CiiAiKMAx. All your connections were with Mr. Gelders? 

Mr. Fkaxtz. That is ri<>ht. 

The Chair:max. And he employed you in connection with this par- 
ticular case ( 

Mr. P'kaxtz. No. sir. He employed me in general as a sort of 
special assistant to do whatever work I was most needed on, and it 
was understood that the main body of that work would be legal re- 
search and other kinds of research, specially legal. 

The Chaiioiax. And was there some sort of proceeding against 
this man Spradling ? Is that what I understand ? 

]Mr. Fkaxtz. This man Spradling had been arrested in his own 
room, as I remember the case, in his own room at the Memphis 
Y. M. C. A. and sent to the chain gang on a vagrancy charge. And 
the National Connnittee for People's Rights and Mr. Gelders con- 
sidered that a violation of his civil liberties and that case was one 
of the violations of civil liberties in Mem])his that we had in mind 
Avhen Mr. (ielders sent me to Memphis. 

The Chatrmax. What was Spradley? Was he an official in the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I don't have personal knowledge of that, but I under- 
stand that he was. 

The Chairmax. Well, from your investigation and the papers you 
had and your connection with the case, was that generally known — 
that he was an official in the Communist Party? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I don't know what was generally known, but my un- 
derstanding was that he was arrested and charged with vagrancy — 
that he was woi-king for the Connmmist Party. 

The Chairmax. Isn't it a fact that in the State of Alabama that 
Spradley was on the State committee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. FiiAXTz. I don't know. 

The Chairmax. You don't know that to be a fact? 

(No answer.) 

The Chairman, You know that Robert Hall is the district and 
State secretary, do you not? 

Mr. Fraxtz, That is generally known. 

The Chairmax^ Do you know Andy Brown? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Yes. I think I have met him in Workers Alliance work. 

The Chairman. In the Workers Alliance? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were you active in the Workers Alliance? 

Mr. Fkaxtz. Yes. 



7856 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairmax. What position did yon hold? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I was mostly pnblicity director. 

The Chairman. For the Workers Alliance at Birmingham? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And yon met Andy Brown, who was active in the 
Workers' Alliance, there? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

The Chairman. ^Yh^.t official position did Andy Brown hold in 
the Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't think he held any. 

The Chairman. Yon don't think he had any jxisition in the 
Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. He was jnst active in the work? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did yon meet Jim Mallory? 

Mr. Fleischer. Mr. Chairman, I again press my objection. I 
think this is outside of the scope of the investigation of your com- 
mittee. This witness will be glad to answer any question as to his 
i:)articular activities with relationship to the matter under investiga- 
tion by your committee. 

The Chairman. This is his activity. 

Mr. Fleischer. The fact that he knew somebody ? 

The Chairman. His activities in connection with Andy Brown. 
That is what I am asking about. 

Mr. Fleischer. He testified that he was — he was active in the 
Workers Alliance. Now, as to whether any other person was active 
or involved, so far as this witness is concerned, I think is entirely 
irrelevant and immaterial. 

The Chairman. Your exception is noted. Did you meet Jim Mal- 
lory ? 

Mr. Frantz, No ; I don't know Jim Mallory. 

The Chairman. Do you know John Parker? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. Never met John Parker? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember any John Parker. 

The Chairman. Do you know Frank Curry? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. Never met Frank Curry ? 

(No answer.) 

The Chairman. Do you know Jane Speed? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where did you meet Jane Speed ? 

Mr. Frantz. In Birmingham. 

The Chairman. In connection with what did you meet her? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember in what connection. 

The Chairman. Didn't you meet her in the office of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir; I don't think I did. 

The Chairman. You don't recall where you met her ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't recall with certainty where I met her; no. I 
think I met her first at her house. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7857 

The Chairmax. Yon know tliat yon met her at her lionse, yon say? 
Mr. Fkantz. I don't remember with any certahity where I first met 

lier. 

The Chairman. I thonght you said— you just said you thought you 

met her at her lionse. 

jMr. Frantz. That is my impression. 

The Chairman. That is your impression? 
(No answer.) 

The Chairman. Did yon know Jane Speed to be a Commumst? 

Mv. Frantz. I kne\v that was lier general reputation; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you know that Jane Speed was a member of 
the State committee of the Communist Party of Alabama? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, do you recall a hosiery mill strike at the 
Rockwood Hosiery Mills at Roane County, Tenn., at Harriman, in 
April of 1935 ? 

Mr. Frantz. In Harriman? 

]\Ir. Barker. Yes. 

Air. Frantz. Now, wait a minute. Harriman and Rockwood are 
two different places. 

Mr. Barker. The Rockwood Hosiery Mills are located in Harri- 
man. 

IMr. Frantz. I recall a strike in Harriman. I thonght the name of 
it was the Harriman Hosiery Mills. 

]\Ir. Barker. Well, it might be. Your knowledge of that may be 
better than mine. Do you recall that strike in 1935? 

'Mv. Frantz. I think it was in 1934. 

Mr. Barker. 1934? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know what date it was. I think it was in 1934. 

Mr. Barker. Do you recall that the city water works at that time 
was d}' namited ? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object. 

The Chairman. AVliat is it? 

Mr. Barker. I asked him if he knew the city waterworks at that 
time were dynamited? 

Mr. Fleischer. Now, I object to this type of question. It is 
evidently an intent on the part of the examiner here to color the 
testimony of tliis witness and to create a picture as far as this de- 
feiulant is concerned — this witness is concerned — which does not 
exist at all. 

The Chairman. What is your purpose of asking that ? 

Mr. Barker. I will ask another question. 

Mr. Fleischer. I ask it be stricken from the record. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, do you know Hilliard Bernstein ? 

^Nfr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Barker. You do know him? 

'Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Did you represent him when he was arrested at 
Rockwood ? 

Air. Frantz. I did not. 

]Mr. Barker. Did you represent him as a member of the bar when 
lie was arrested ? 



7858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Frantz. I did not. 

Mr. Barker. Did you know Hilliard Bernstein when lie was ar- 
rested had a list of contacts where he was to contact you and several 
other individuals ? 

Mr. Frantz. I did not know that. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Robert F. Hall is the district secretary of the 
Communist Party for Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi ; isn't that 
right 'i 

Mr. Frantz. That is what I understand. 

Mr. Barker. He is also the southern representative of the national 
campaign committee of the Comnumist Party!' 

Mr. Frantz. That is right. 

Mr. Barker. Now, is Mr. Hall your only client that you have 
down in Birmingham or do you practice law down there generally? 

Mr. Frantz. I was — neither one of those is quite true. Mr. 
Hall is not the only client, and I have never been engaged in full- 
time law practice. 

Mr. Barker. Now. at the time of your arrest by this city detective 
in Birmingham, Mr. Frantz, there was removed from your person 
some correspondence addressed to Mr. Hall, was there not ? 

Mr. Frantz. There was. 

Mr. Barker. Was there any connection between that correspond- 
ence and the Communist Party? 

Mr. Fleischer. Explain it. 

Mr. Frantz. That correspondence was from the department of 
justice in Mississippi with relation to the regulations regarding 
getting on the ballot in Mississippi. 

Mr. Barker. That was the correspondence? 

Mr. Frantz. That is what it Avas. 

Mr. Barker. Well, how many clients have you had since you have 
been practicing law in Birmingham? 

Mr. Frantz. I have had very few clients. I have been mostly 
engaged in work which had something to do with law yet was not 
the practice of law, such as this work that I did with Mr. Gelders. 

Mr. Barker. Do you know Paul Crouch? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. Is Mr. Crouch the secretary of the Communist Party 
for the State of Tennessee? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know. 

Mr. Barker. How long have you known Mr. Paul Crouch? 

Mr. Frantz. A couple or 3 years. 

Mr. Barker. Have you ever attended any communistic meeting with 
Mr. Paul Crouch ? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that. The question has already been 
answered, Mr. Chairman. He testified at the beginning he never 
attended any Communist Party meetings. 

The Chairman, Well, for the sake of the record, we want specific 
either affirmance or denial. If lie did not attend any Communist 
meetings and did not attend this, he may so state. 

Mr. Fleischer. His answer was "no," as I take it. 

The Chairman. Is that right — your answer is "no"? 

Mr. Frantz. My answer is "no" ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Do you know Harold Ralston, alias Nathaniel Brown? 



UX-A^IERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7859 

Mr. Fraxtz. No. 

Mr. l^ARKKK. Do you know AVirt Taylor? 

Mr. Fkantz. Yes. 

Mr. Bakkki.'. Also known us Wii't R. Taylor? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Barker. AVhat position does Mr. Wirt R. Taylor hold in the 
Conmninist Party in Alabama. Mississij^pi, and (Georgia? 

^Ir. Frantz. I don't know exactly. 1 think he is some kind of 
assistant to Hall. 

The Chairman. One ])oint right here. Now. you say Mr. Hall 
eni])loved — did he employ you in l)ehalf of the (\)mniunist Party 
of Alabama^ 

Mr. Frantz. He did not say. He asked nie to do this work, and 
1 a<ireed to do it. 

The Chairman. What was the nature of the work he asked you 
to do? 

Mr. Frantz. He asked me to study the election laws of 12 South- 
ern States and furnish him a re{)<)rt on each State as to what was 
necessai'V to get the Conununist Party on the ballot. 

The Chairman. When did he employ you — what date did you say ? 

Mr. Frantz. It was about the middle of March. 

The Chairman. About the middle of March? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

The Chairisian. Did you carry on your work in the office of the 
Communist Party? 

]\[r. Frantz. I carried on my work prineipall}' in the law library 
in Birmingham. 

The Chairman. Did you carry on part of your work in the offices 
of the Communist Party in Birmingham? 

^Ir. Frantz. Yes. sir. When I completed the study on any State, 
why. 1 would come back to ■Sir. Hall's office, type up the information 
in the form that I thought would be most useful for him, and turned 
it over to him. 

The Chair:man. Did you represent anyone else during that period 
in the citv of l^irnungham? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. Your only representation was Bob Hall, but it 
was in connection with the — it was for the Comnuniist Party, was 
it not ? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, as I say, Mr. Hall asked me to do this work. 
T pi'esume it was not just an individual whim of his, but that is all 
I know about it. 

The Chairman. All right, ])roceed. 

Mr. Barkkr. Do you know Mr. Ted Wellman, also known as 
Theo F. Wellman? 

Mr. Frantz. I know Ted Wellman. I don't know him bv any 
other name. 

Mr. Barker. AVas Ted AVellman a member of the Communist 
Party in Tennessee? 

IVIr. Frantz. Yes. He was well known as a member of the Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr. Barker. He was a candidate for Presidential elector on the 
Comnuniist Pai-ty ticket in 10:56, wasn't he? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know. 



7860 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Barker, Do you know AYhere Mr. Ted Wellman is at this 
time ? 

Mr. Frantz. I do not, 

Mr. Barker. Do you know where Wirt Taylor is at this time? 

Mr, Frantz. I do not. 

Mr. Barker, Is Mr. Wirt Taylor a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Frantz. I believe I have seen his name on Communist Party 
material. 

Mr. Barker. Have you ever been out of the United States? 

The Chairman. Have you ever attended any meetings of the 
Young Conmiunist League ? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

INIi'. Barker. Mr. Frantz, have you assisted in the publication of a 
publication known as the New South? 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir, 

Mr, Barker, Have you ever assisted in the ])ublication of a pub- 
lication issued in Knoxville under the name of the Volunteer? 

Mr, Frantz, No. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, while you Avere in Knoxville, were you 
also employed by W. P. A.? 

Mr. Frantz. t was in a nonrelief capacity ; yes. 

Mr. Barker. Sir? 

Mr. Frantz. I was emplo3^ed by the W. P. A. in Knoxville in a 
nonrelief capacity. 

Mr. Barker. Nonrelief capacity? 

Mr, Frantz, Yes, 

Mr, Barker, You were supervisor there of a project to index all 
Federal archives ? 

Mr, Frantz, It was more like an inventory — survey of Federal 
archives is what it was called, 

Mr. Barker, Your office at that time was in room 306 of the Fed- 
eral Building? 

Mr. Frantz. It was. 

Mr. Barker. How long did that project last, Mr. Frantz? 

Mr. Frantz. About 10 months. 

Mr. Barker. Do you recall IMr. Earl Browder, general secretary 
of the Communist Party, making an address in Chattanooga? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Barker. You attended that address? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes ; I did. ^ 

Mr. Barker. You did? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz. this office that you worked in in Knox- 
ville in the W. P. A. employed how many people ? 

]Mr. Frantz. The most it ever employed was 10. We usually had 6. 

Mr. Barker. On the afternoon that Mr. Browder was to make 
this sjieech in Ch.attanooga, Mr. Frantz, the office closed out and all 
of you went down to Chattanooga to hear Mr. Browder, didn't you ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember closing early that day; no. x\.nd I 
don't think it is true that all of us went down to hear Browder ; no, 

Mr. Barker. Pardon? 

Mr. Frantz. No; that statement is not true; no. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7861 

Mr. Barker. You nieaii to say that not all of the employees — of 
the 10, went to Chattanoo<;a ; is that right ? 

Mr. Fleischer. Mr. Chairman, may I respectfully submit whether 
1, 10, 15, or 50 people went to hear Earl Browder is not material 
as far as this witness is concerned. 

The Chairman. AVe think it is, Mr. Attorney. Proceed. 

]Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, state how many of the people employed 
in room oOO at Knoxville, under this project, W. P. A. project, of 
which you were supervisor, how many of those people went to Chat- 
tanoojxa with you to hear ]\Ir. Earl Browder speak. 

Mr. Frantz. I don't think any of them went to Chattanooga with 
me. 

Mr. Barker. You just went by yourself? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't recall who went to Chattanooga with me. I 
went to Chattanooga; yes. 

]Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Frantz, you have a brother named John M. 
Frantz? 

Mr. Frantz. I do. 

Mr. Barker. He is employed by the Tennessee Valley Authority? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. He is employed in mails and files in the New Spran- 
kle Building in Knoxville; is that right? 

^Ir. Frantz. I believe he is employed in office service. I don't 
know what building. 

Mr. Barker. T)id he accompany you to Chattanooga to hear Earl 
Browder speak? 

Mr. Frantz. I think he did; yes. 

Mr. Barker. Did your father also go with you to Chattanooga to 
hear Browder? 

Mr. Fleischer. I don't see what this has to do with the questioning 
of this witness. 

The Chairman. You noted your exception. 

Mr. Frantz. Mr. Chairman. I would like to add to that that I 
think Mr. Barker's questioning me about personal, private, and fam- 
ily affairs are not a proper subject for the inquiry and not within 
the scope of the investigation at all. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. You have already testified 
your brother went with you. The question is now ; Did your father 
accom])any you to hear Earl Browder speak? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't think the question is material and I don't 
thiidv it is within the scope of the investigation, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. You decline to answer the question? 

Mr. Frantz. I decline to answer it for the grounds that I have 
just stated ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, go ahead. 

INIr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, do you know a lady by the name of 
Miss Dorothy Remine? 

Mr. Fleischer. Mr. Chairman, I again press the same objection, 
whether he knew anybody else is not pertinent to the inquiry before 
this committee. 

The Chairman. All right ; your objection is overruled. Proceed. 

Mr. Barker. Answer the question. 

Mr. Fleischer. Exception. 

Mr. Frantz. Mr. Chairman. I don't wish to discuss my friends 
here under circumstances where their names will go out over the 



7862 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

press wires under goodness knows what interpretation of the evi- 
dence, and with the possible result that these personal friends of 
mine mio;ht lose their jobs or be discriminated ajrainst in some way. 

Mr. Barker. Let me ask you this question then. ]Mr. Frantz. Is 
Miss Kemine the wife of your brother John 'i 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. Was she employed on this W. I'. A. project under 
your supervision ? 

Mr. Frantz. She was — she was not at that time a wife of my 
brother. 

Mr. Barker. She was not? 

Mr. Fraxtz, She was not. 

Mr. Barker. Did she go to Chattanooga to attend the Earl 
Browder speech ? 

Mr, Frantz. Mr. Chairman, I don't remember who went to 
Chattanooga. 

The Chair]man. You remembered your brother did, 

Mr. Frantz. I — to the best of my recollection my brother was 
there. I am not positive of that, I answered that question to the 
best of my recollection, 

Tlie Chairman. Well, is your answer now that you don't remember 
whether this lady went to Chattanooga with you to hear this speech? 

Mr. Fleischer. As far as you know, you don't remember. 

Mr. Frantz. I don't have any clear recollection of who did and 
who did not go to Chattanooga. 

The Chairman, All right, 

Mr, Barker, Do you knoAv a woman Vjy the name of Polly Carey? 

Mr, Frantz. Mr, Chairman, I object to being asked continually: 
"Do I know this person and that person," because I don't wish these 
persons to be discriminated against or to sutfer in any way for their 
having been personally acquainted with me, 

Mr. Starnes, You don't tliink because somebody knows you that 
it is inimical to their welfare? You don't contend tliat? 

Mr, Frantz, I think it is inimical to any person's welfare to have 
his name go out to the press from this committee. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, you — I would like to get your posi- 
tion. Do you mean to say that people who know you — it would 
be harmful for the country to know that people know you? 

Mr. Frantz, Xo, sir. That is not my position, 

Mr, Starnes, Well, that is the impression I am getting because 
you are refusing to answer because you say it will mean they will 
be discriminated against if you even know them and it will be 
hai'mful to them, I just want to get your position in my mind here. 
You mean to state that under your oath that if people knoAv you and 
you so testify that you know them and they know you, here before 
this committee, it will be injurious to them just because they know 
you ? 

Mr. Fleischer, It is very clear, Mr, Committeeman, that the wit- 
ness here has been subpenaed for the pur])Ose of endeavoring to find 
out whether or not he is a member of the Communist Party, 

Now, there is no proof that he is a member of the Communist 
Party, 

Mr. Stat?nes, That is not, ^[r. Counsel, what is bothering me. He 
is being asked certain pertinent Cjuestions here. No witness who ever 



UX-AMEKICAX I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7863 

CiUiie here has just bcon confined to questions ;is to whether he be- 
longed to an or<ianization or didn't, but his general knowledge about 
any of these organizations or people connected with them, and it is 
pertinent to this inciuirv. But I just cannot get the witness' attitude 
here — just because people know him that it would be harmful to them 
in a business or professional way. 

Mr. Fleischer. Because he is subpenaed here ostensibly as a mem- 
ber of the Comnuniist Party, and people who may read the press may 
draw the wrong or incorrect conclusion or inference by virtue of 
the fact that he is here as a witness to testify as to his alleged con- 
nection with the Communist Party. 

^Nlr. VooKiiis. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me this whole question 
depends on whether the connnittee is in possession of any evidence 
with regard to any of the persons concerning wht)m the questions 
are asked. 

I am unfamiliar with it. I don't know whether it is or not. But 
if it isn't, I think the witness' objection is proper; but if these are 
j^ersons concerning whom the committee does have evidence, that is 
a different matter. 

Mr. Barker. The purpose of the question is to find out if Polly 
Carey was his secretary while he was supervisor of this AY. P. A. 
project. 

Mr. Fleischer. Why not ask the question instead of asking whether 
or not he knew her { 

^Ir. Barker. He did not give me an opportunity. Was she your 
secretary, Mr. Frantz? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Before I answer that, may I make one more state- 
ment, Mr. Chairman? I would like to make one more statement 
and try to clarify my positi(m to this committee member who asked 
me about it. Is that all right? 

The Chairman. All right ; go ahead. 

Mr. Fraxtz. My position is this: I don't think that there is any 
reason, any legitimate reason, why anyone should suffer for being 
personally acquainted with me at all, but I do think that when Mr. 
Barker sits here and reads off names: ''Do I know this person and 
do I know that person," that to say "Yes" under these circumstances 
and have their names go out in the record as mentioned here before 
the committee, will give an inference in the minds of the people who 
read these news reports that these ])ersons were connected with some 
kind of activitv that this committee is investigating. I don't think 
that is true of these people, and I don't want that inference to be 
made through the press accounts of this type of questioning. Is that 
clear? 

Mr. Starnes. You don't mean to say you would attempt to censor 
the pi-ess, Avould you? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I am not attempting to censor the press; no, sir. 
Mr. Starxes. And not attempting to tell the press what it should 
or should not write. 
Mr. Frantz. I am not. 

Mr. Fleischer. It is the reading of the thing. 
The Chairman*. Proceed. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, what happened to this W. P. A. project 
that you were working on in Knoxville ? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Xothing happened to it. The work was completed. 

94931—40 — vol. i:j 1.3 



7864 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Barker. The work was completed? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. At the time that this W. P. A. project was going in 
Knoxville, Mr. Frantz, were any fraction meetings of the Communist 
Party of Ivnoxville — of the Communist Party of Knox County — 
hekl in this office, room 306, in the Federal Building? 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, did you hear anything about what caused 
this project to be closed u])? Why it was closed? Were there any 
protests lodged here in Washington or with Col. Harry Bayer, in 
charge of the Tennessee W. P. A., about the activity of your office in 
Knoxville ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't understand what you mean by ''any protest." 
I don't know of any protest; no. 

Mr. Barker. You do not recall any protest being made? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know of any protest. I do know — well, I — - 
well, what I am trying to get across is, I don't know of any protest, 
and that the project was closed down, to my knowledge, because the 
work was completed. 

Mr. Barker. Did Mr. Woodruff Booth, postmaster at Knoxville, 
and John D. Wine, custodian of the Federal Building at Knoxville, 
take the keys to this i-oom away from you and impound the records? 

Mr. Frantz. They did not; no, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Did not? 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Who did you deliver the keys to, to this office? 

Mr. Frantz. I was not on the project until right up until it closed. 
I was on the project until sometime in December. At that time my 
services were dispensed with, and the project was put in charge of 
someone else for a period of several weeks, and I gave the keys to my 
successor. 

Mr. Barker. And who was your successor? 

Mr. Frantz. Miss Remine. 

Mr. Barker. Miss Dorothy Renline? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, 

Mr. Barker. R-e-m-i-n-e? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, did you bring a speaker to Knoxville one 
time to address the student body at the University of Tennessee 2 

Mr, Fleischer. May I again press the same objection? 

The Chairman. What was the question? 

Mr. Barker. I asked if he brought a speaker to Knoxville to 
address the student body at the University of Tennessee. 

The Chairman, What speaker? 

Mr. Barker. I asked him if he brought a speaker. 

Mr. Fleischer. I think the question is vague. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. Well, I don't think tliat would be 
a proper question — "bring a speaker" tliere for that purpose. You 
mean some Communist speaker? 

Mr. Barker. Well, I want him to state the name of the gentleman. 

The Chairman. Just ask this question: Who is the man that you 
are inquiring about? 

Mr. Barker. I don't have his name, Mr. Chairman. I was asking 
the witness if he would state for the record the man he brought 
down to Knoxville. 



rX-A.MKiU('A>' I'KorAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7865 

The Chairman. To addiess a students' ojathering there? 

]\Ir. Bahkek. Yes. 

rhe Chairman. Where? 

Mr. Barker. At the UiiiA'ersity of Tennessee. 

]Mr. Fleischer. "When? 

Mr. Barker. 19:^7. 

Mr. Fleischer. What month? 

Mr. Barker. I don't have that date. It is during the year 1937'. 

Mr. Fleischer. AVelL I object to the question, Mr. Chairman, off 
tlie irroiind it is va<rue, indefinite, and uncertain, and can have no 
bearing upon the scope or activities or futictions of this committee. 

The Chairman. I think the question in its present form would not, 
be admissible. Go ahead. 

]Mr. Starnes. Let me get something in my mind. You say you 
were Avorking with the W. P. A. in a nomelief capacity in Knoxvi'lle? 

Mr. Frantz. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. For a period of around 10 months? 

Mr. Frantz. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. What vear? 

Mr. Frantz. 1936. 

iVIr. Starnes. Now, Avhen did you go to Birmingham ? 

Mr. Frantz. 1937. 

Mr. Starnes. 1937? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Hoav long were you there before you were connected 
with the Works Progress Administration anywhere? 

Mr. Frantz. I made application to the AVorks Progress Admin- 
istration in April 1938, after my work with Mr. Gelders and the 
National Committee for People's Rights had been terminated. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you work on a relief or nonrelief capacity in 
Bii-mingham ? 

Mr. Frantz. On a relief capacity. 

Mr. Starnes. How long had you been in Birmingham before you 
were accepted as a relief client? 

Mr. Frantz. Well. I have been in Birmingham for something over 
a year. 

Mi-. Starnes. You were not there a year before you put in your 
aj)plication ( 

Mr. Frantz. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you meet Jack Donovan while you were in 
Birmingham? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes: I did. 

Mr. Starnes. How long had you been there before you met hijn? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember exactly when he came there. It 
seems to be he came there last summer, but I am not sure about that. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you have any conference M'ith him with refer- 
ence to the relief situation in the Birmingham area? 

Mr. Frantz. T liad frequent conferences with him; yes. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you ever have any conferences with Mr. Donovan 
in Avhich either Mr. Dunn, the State welfare directoi-, Avas present, and 
Mr. W. G. Henderson, the State administrator? 

Mr. Frantz. No. T don't remember any conferences like that. 

Mr. Starnes. Didn't have any conferences with those people? 

(No answer.) 



7866 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Donovan is the direct organizer for the Workers' 
Alliance, was he not ? 

Mr. Frantz. He was a representative of the national office of the 
Workers' Alliance. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you ever have any conference with Mr. Donovan 
at which Paul Crouch was present? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't think so ; no. 

Mr. Starnes. Or with Jane Speed ? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

Mr. Starnes. How long did you stay on relief in Birmingham, Mr. 
Witness? 

Mr. Frantz. I was on relief for about a year and a half wdth 
several breaks, two of which were for more than 30 days between 
projects. 

Mr. Starnes. The 18-month provision, then, did not apply to you? 

Mr. Frantz. It did not. 

Mr. Starnes. What was the type of work that you did in Birming- 
ham ? 

Mr. Frantz. I have already gone into that, I believe. I was — I 
did radio scripts for the health project. I was an editor on the 
writers' project, and I was an editor and then later principal editor 
on a national research project. 

Mr. Starnes. How many did you have in your w^riters' project 
there, do you recall? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, it seems to me there were about 8 in the State 
office. 

Mr. Starnes. Eight in the State office, and the State office is located 
there in Birmingham? 

Mr. Frantz. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz, this office of Mr. Hall in Birmingham, 
room — I think you said — room 235 in the Clark Building, is that 
right ? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. That is Mr. Hall's office, his headquarters for the 
Communist Party, isn't it? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I don't know that it is. No; it is Mr. Hall's 
office, and he is an official. 

Mr. Barker. Sir? 

Mr. Fleischer. He already answered it. 

Mr. Frantz. All I know is that it is Mr. Hall's office and that he is 
:an official. 

Mr. Barker. Official of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. Were there any records in that office, Mr. Frantz ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know of any records in that office. I am not 
in charge of the office, and if there were any records there I wouldn't 
be acquainted witli them or have any business going into them. 

Mr. Barker. How long has it been since you have seen Wirt Taylor? 

Mr. Fleischer. Now, Mr. Chairman, I again press the same objec- 
tion. I respectfully suggest the scope and activity of this committee 
is confined to matters pertaining to his activities and the relation- 
ship of the question of un-American activities. Anything outside of 
the scope of that is incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7357 

Tlie CiiAiRMAX. Well. Avitli reference to Wirl Tayloi'. is he an 
official in the Communist Party ^ 

Mr. Fleischer. There, is no proof as to that. 

The Chairman. I am askino; that. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Frantz iclentitied Mr. Wirt Taylor as being an 
official in the Comnumist Party by stating that he saw his name on 
some material up there in that office, and a subpena has been issued 
for Mr. Wirt Taylor. He hasn't been located, and I wanted to know 
if Mr. Frantz — - 

The Chairman. Do you know ]\Ir. AVirt Taylor to be — you under- 
stand him to be a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir; I do. 

The Chairman. He is a member of the Communist Party. Well, 
go ahead and ask your question. 

INIr. Fleischer. Exception. 

Mr. Barker. How long has it been since vou have seen Mr. Wirt 
Taylor? 

Mr. Fleischer. I again press the objection. It seems the scope 
of this committee is to obtain information as to tlie whereabouts of 
this witness whom it is anxious to serve. 

The Chairman. Would you be inclined to suppress any infor- 
mation ? 

Mr. PYeischer. Provided such type of questioning relates specific- 
ally to any activities or actions tliat his witness has carried on in the 
scope of un-American activities. 

The Chairman. You would not have any objection to the com- 
mittee finding this witness? 

Mr. Fleischer. No; I wouldn't have any objection, but I still press 
the objection that such questioning is immaterial and irrelevant. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Barker. Answer the question, Mr. Frantz. 

Mr. Frantz. I saw him last Saturday. 

Mr. Barker. Last Saturday. Where did you see him? 

Mr. Frantz. He took me to the train. 

Mr. Barker. He took you to the train? 

Mr. Frantz. (No answer.) 

Mr. Barker. Have you been carrying on a general correspond- 
ence for Bob Hall, in addition to this work for the national cam- 
paign committee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

Mr. Barker. You did not handle an}- general correspondence? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the question. It has already been 
answered. It is in the record. 

The Chairman. You did not write any letters for Bob Hall or 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Fleischer. No. 

The Chairman. Is that riglit ? 

Mr, Frantz. I did not. 

The Chairman. Did you open any of the mail to Bob Hall or the 
Comnuuiist Party? 

Mr. P^ANTZ. This mail that was in my pocket at the time that I 
was arrested, while it was addressed to Mr. Hall, it was material 
regarding getting on the ballot, and Mr. Taylor turned it over to 
me to study in ]\Ir. Hall's absence. 



7868 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Barker. Who else was in this room in the Clark Building 
when the city detective and the marshal came up there? 
Mr. Frantz. No one. 

Mr. Barker. You were there? 
Mr. Frantz. Yes, 

Mr. Barker. Did you have a key to the room, Mr. Frantz? 
Mr. Frantz. I did. 

Mr. VooRHis. Could I ask one question. Were you retained by 
Mr. Hall or by the party tO' make this study? Is that what I under- 
stand ? 

Mr. Frantz. I was retained by Mr. Hall ; yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. And he paid you a salary to do this work; is that 
right ? 

Mr, Frantz. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did he pay you by check or in cash ? 

Mr. Frantz. He paid me by cash. 

Mr. Barker. Now, Mr. Frantz, this subpena that was served upon 
jou by the United States marshal of Birmingham is a subpena duces 
tecum requiring you to bring all records of the Communist Party 
in your possession and custocly, including correspondence, member- 
ship lists, and financial records. Did you bring the records with you, 
Mr. Frantz? 

Mr. Frantz. I have never had any such records in my possession 
or custody. 

Mr. Barker. You had a key to Mr. Hall's office? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes ; but I didn't have custody of anything that was 
in Mr. Hall's office. I had the use of it — I had the use of the office. 

Mr. Barker. Have you been in communication since you were 
served with this subpena on April 11 with Mr. Bob Hall ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't see how that is material. Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. It is material, 

Mr. Fleischer. In what way, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Well, do you want me to disclose publicly the 
reasons he is being asked these questions? I am trying to be fair to 
the witness. We are not here just asking him questions to pass the 
time away. All of us have business to attend to and we are here 
asking questions because we have a definite reason for asking them. 
But I am not, in fairness to the witness. I am not disclosing such 
reasons. Proceed. 

Mr. Barker. Answer the question, Mr. Frantz. Were you in com- 
munication with Bob Hall after you had been served with the sub- 
pena on April 11? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. You were? 

Mr. Frantz. I was, 

Mr. Barker. At what place ? 

Mr. Frantz. At his office. 

Mr. Barker. In Birmingham? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. And what day was that? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I was in his office on Friday and also on Satur- 
day of that week, which would be 

Mr. Barker. April 12 and 13? 

Mr. Frantz. Something like that. 



rXA:\[KRICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7869 

Mr. Barker. Were you in communication with Mr. Paul Crouch at 
any time after you were served with a subpena? 

Sir. Frantz. Xo. 

Mr. Baiuvkr. Mr. Frantz, have you ever behmged to the American 
League Against War and Fascism or the American League for Peace 
and Deniofracy ( 

Mr. Fraxtz. Xo. sir. 

Mr. Barker. You have not? 

Mr. Fraxtz. No. 

The Chairman. When did you join the Workers' Alliance, Mr. 
Frantz ? 

Mr. Frantz. 1936. 

The Chairman. You are still a member of the Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I would say, ''No," because I haven't been active 
or paid my dues in some time. 

The Chairman. Did you ever make any speeches in behalf of the 
Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were 30U one of the organizers for the Workers' 
Alliance ? 

Mr. Frantz. No ; I was the publicity director. 

The CHAIRMAN. Were you ever approached by anyone to join the 
Connnunist Party? 

Mr. Fleischer. He testified he was not a member of the Com- 
munist Party. 

The Chairman. I am asking him if he was approached. 

Mr. P^leischer. Would it make any difference? The fact is he is 
not a member of the Communist Party. 

The Chairman. That is what we are inquiring into. Were you 
ever approached by anyone to join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Frantz. I was never asked in so many words to join it ; no. 

The Chairman. Never asked in so many words to join the Com- 
munist Party. Bob Hall never solicited you to become a member? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

Mr. Starnes. By the way, who assigned you to this writers' project 
and this publicity work on relief then in Birmingham, ]\Ir. Frantz? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, it was done through — I think you have got a 
little misunderstanding there. I — there was no publicity work on 
relief — on nn' relief employment. 

Mr. Starnes. I understood you to say you were editor in chief of 
a writers' project. Maybe I didn't iniderstand you. 

]Mr. Frantz. You did misunderstand me. I said I was editor. That 
doesn't mean of a })ublication. That means I was editing mate- 
rial sent in from the field. 

Mr. Starnes. Who assigned you to that duty? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, the — you mean who assigned me to the job 
that was done ? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes: who assigned you to the job? 

Mr. Frantz. That was done through the W. P. A. assignment 
office. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you make application for that kind of work 
and ask to be assigned to tlie writers' project? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. To whom did you address the application? 



7870 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Frantz. I made an application — I was on W. P. A. — I mean 
I was on the W. P. A. rolls at that time. 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Frantz. And I had no assignment. I made an oral applica- 
tion, to the State director of the project. 

Mr. Starnes. Who was the State director at that time? 

Mr. Frantz. Miss Myrtle INIiles. 

Mr. Starnes. Miss Miles ? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. She lives in Birminofham? 

Mr. Frantz. Her office Avas in Birmingham. She lives somewhere 
near there — not in the city. 

Mr. Starnes. Now. how long had yon lived in Birmingham be- 
fore you applied for relief? 

Mr. Frantz. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Yon said yon went down there, as I understand you, 
in 1937, sometime and that you were assigned to work about April 
1938. Now, how long had you been there before you were assigned? 

Mr. Frantz. I had been there for something over a year. 

Mr. Starnes. But how long had you been there before you applied ? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I was — it is the same thing. I was assigned 
almost immediately after I applied. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not have any difficulty in getting on? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I got on about 1 week after my a])i3lication. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you apply through the Workers' Alliance or did 
they assist you in any way in getting your — did they expedite action 
on your application for relief? 

Mr. Frantz. They did not : no. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all. 

The Chairman. ]Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. INIr. Frantz. how long did you work for the 
National Committee for People's Eights? 

Mr. Frantz. I worked there for a little over a year. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your salary — any? 

Mr. Frantz. Well, it depended. It was somewhat — it A^aried a 
good deal. I got — I would say I got an average of $15 a week. 

Mr. Matthews. "Wliat were you supposed to get in salary? 

The Chairman. Speak a little louder, please. 

Mr. Frantz. Well, I am tryjng to make clear that this was changed. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Was there a fixed salary? 

Mr. Frantz. There was at various times. It was changed 
frequently. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the former name of this organization, 
Mr. Frantz? 

Mr. Frantz. It was formerly known as the National Committee 
for the Defense of Political Prisoners. 

Mr. Matthews. Who are the national officers of the National Com- 
mittee for People's Rights? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that, Mr. Chairman. I think it is not 
pertinent or relative. 

The Chairman. If the witness knows. 

Mr. Fleischer. Exception. 

The Chairman. Do j'on want to state the purpose of going into 
this matter ? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 1^11 

Mr. Fleischkr. I wish you would. 

The Chairman. I will stiito the purpose: Because this ortjaniza- 
tion — the counnittee has evidence this organization is a Communist 
or<ranization set up and controlled by the Conununist Party. Proceed. 

Mr. Ma'itiiews. Who are the national oihcers of the organization? 

Mr. P'kantz. I don't knoAv the organization at the present time. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you work for it? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I worked for it in 10;57 — the early jiart of 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. AMio were the national officers at that time? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I haven't had occasion to think of their names for some 
time and otfhand I don't remember their names. 

Mr. MAT-rHEWs. Do you know ? 

Mr. Fr.\xtz. I had no dealings with them. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that a substantial majority of the 
members of this committee are publicly known Communists? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I don't know anything about the members. 

Mr. Matthews. You worked for the organization, didn't you? 

Mr. Frantz. I did. 

^Ir. Matthews. Did you ever handle any of its letterheads? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to know whether 
you mean a substantial majority of the members of the committee — 
do 3'ou mean of the governing board or the membership of the whole 
committee ? 

Mr. Matthews. So far as I know the organization is a national 
committee and the national committeemen are those listed on the 
letterhead. 

Mr. Voorhis. I see. 

Mr. Matthews. That is what I refer to. 

Mr. Fraxtz. I don't know what the question is now. 

Mr. Matthews. Who were the national officers at the time you 
worked for the organization? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I don't remember who they were. I would probably 
recognize their names. 

The Chairman^. What is your answer? You don't remember? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I had no dealings whatever with the national officers 
or with the national office. All my dealings were with Mr. Gelders. 

Mr. Matthews. But you did have letterheads in your possession, 
you have stated? 

Mr. Fraxtz. There were letterheads in tlie office; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And did you conduct any correspondence at any 
time with reference to the affairs of the organization? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Yes. I did. 

]\rr. Matthews. You did use the letterheads then? 

Mr. Fraxtz. I don't remember whether I used the letterheads or 
not. I think very probably I did. 

Mr. Matthews. You have seen the letterheads? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthew\s. And you did at one time know the names of the 
committee members? 

Mr. Fleischer. Just for the sake of the record, let us get this clear. 
Are you referring to the National Committee for People's Rights or 
the National Committee for the Defense of Political Prisoners? 



7872 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. National Committee for People's Rights, the or- 
ganization for which Mr. Frantz worked. 

Mr. Frantz. I don't think I ever paid any special attention to the 
names on the letterhead. I certainly never memorized them. 

Mr. Matthews. I did not ask you if yoii had memorized them. 
Would it be a matter of interest to know who your sponsors or em- 
ployers were? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the question on the ground that it has 
already been answered. He testified he doesn't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, the witness has not answered any 
question that even remotely resembles that. 

Mr. Fleischer. I submit the record speaks for itself, and he was 
asked whether he knew and he testified he did not — never had any 
dealings with them. 

The Chairman. The record speaks for itself. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask the witness, too, if it isn't a fact — if it isn't 
a matter of interest to him to know for whom he is working. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to it on the further ground the question 
as put is argumentative and speculative and calls for tlie operation 
of the witness' mind. 

The Chairman. If you had known the organization was a Com- 
munist organization, controlled by well-known Communists, would 
you have worked for the organization? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that question on the ground it is highly 
speculative and hypothetical. 

The Chairman. We are trying to get his viewpoint about it. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Chairman, I don't think it is speculative be- 
cause he testified he has been working for a man he knows to be a 
Communist. 

Mr. Frantz. No, sir — oh, you mean IVIr. Hall ; I see. 

Mr. Starnes. I thought you said you worked for Bob Hall. 

Mr. Fleischer. He admits that. 

Mr. Starnes. And he knew him to be a Communist. 

Mr. Fleischer. He did not say he worked for him. He said he 
was retained there. There is a difference in working for and re- 
tained. 

The Chairman. His work was for the Communist Party in order 
to get the names on the ticket. 

Mr. Fleischer. As an attorney which he had a legal right to do. 

The Chairman. And he has a legal right to belong to the Com- 
munist Party. On that theory we wouldn't have an investigation. 

Mr. MattheIws. I show you a letterhead of the National Com- 
mittee for People's Rights [handing document to the witness]. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen letterheads like that? 

Mr. Frantz. It looks like it. 

Mr. Matfhews. I ask that this be marked as an exhibit. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

(The document referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked 
"Laurent B. Frantz, Exhibit No. 1.") 

Mr. Matthews. I should like to read the names of these commit- 
tee members and ask the witness whether or not he knows of his own 
knowledge whether they were publicly known Communists. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the introduction of the alleged exhibit 
into evidence on the ground there has been no identification by this 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7873 

■witness. He said : "It looks like it." Didn't say it was a letterhead. 

Mr, Maithews. The witness said he had seen similar letterheads. 

Mr. Fleischek. That does not mean it is a letterhead of the com- 
mittee. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Rockwell Kent 

Mr. P^LEiscHER. I press the same objection. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about him ? 

Mr. P^LEISCHER. No. 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Rockwell Kent, who is chairman for 
the l*rofessional Groups for Browder and Ford? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear of Ella Winter ? 

yiv. Frantz. What do you mean? I haven't met these people. 

Mr. Matthews. These are the j)eople for whom you worked. 

Mr. Fleischer. There is no proof in the record that he worked 
for these people and I object to Mr. Matthews assuming a state of 
facts that do not exist. 

The Ciiaii!Max. Tlie evidence is, as I understand, that he worked 
for this committee. 

Mr. Fleischer. For a local committee and that is a national com- 
mittee. 

Tlie Chairman. But the local committee is under the control of 
the national conunittee. 

Mr. Fleischer. Exactly. 

The Chairman. A part of the same organization. 

Mr. Fleischer. But Mr. Matthews put the question in the form 
that assumes a state of facts — that he worked for the national com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Matthews. He testified he worked for the National Com- 
mittee for the People's Rights. That is his language. 

Mr. Fleischer. Suppose we ask a few questions as to the organi- 
zational set-up. 

Did you work in New York City? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

Mr. Fleischer. Did you work for the local territory? 

Mr. Matthews. ]Mr. Chairman 

The Chairman. Just a second. I will ask the questions. 

Did you say that you were employed by this Mr. Geldei-s? 

Mr. Frantz. Yes. 

Tiie Chairman. You were employed in behalf of what? 

Mr. Frantz. AVelh he was the southern representative of this 
organization. 

The Chairman. And you were employed to work for the organi- 
zation. Avere you not? 

Mr. Frantz. I was employed to do whatever work he wanted done. 
He didn't describe it as "employed by the organization.'' no. 

The Chairman. Well, you did not understand it was a personal 
work of his ? 

Mr. Frantz. No. 

The Chairman. AA'hat did you understand when you were em- 
ployed ? 



7874 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA A("TIVITIES 

Mr. Frantz. I Avas — Mr. Gelders was the southern representative 
of this organization and I was employed by him to do research, 
special legal research and to do other things — what I could for him. 

The Chairman. For whom were you to do the work'^ 

Mr. Frantz. Well, the work, of course, was the work of the com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Starnes. Let him go ahead. 

Mr. Fleischer. May I at this point ask one or two questions which 
I tliink will throw a little bit more light on this particular line of 
inquiry ? 

The Chairman. Tell me what you have in mind. 

Mr. Fleischer. What I have in mind to show is this witness 
worked directly under the supervision and control of Mr. Gelders, 
and this witness never had any direct or indirect contact with the 
so-called National Committee of this particular committee, whose 
actions are now — we are seeking now to inquire into; that his only 
contact was with this Mr. Gelders under whom he worked. There- 
fore, any questions asked as to the composition or membership of 
the national committee, so far as this witness is concerned, is clearly 
irrelevant because he does not know. 

The Chairman. If he doesn't know, he will have to say he doesn't 
know. Go ahead. 

Mr. Fleischer. That is the purpose. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Frantz, did you ever have any correspondence 
of any kind with the national office of this organization? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't remember any correspondence with the na- 
tional office. Mr. Gelders dealt with the national office. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you state that you never did have any such 
correspondence ? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the question. It has already been an- 
swered. 

Mr. Mattheavs. The question has been answered by the attorney, 
not by the witness. 

Mr. Fleischer. Answered by the witness, and I object to Mr. 
Matthews insinuating I am leading the witness. 

The Chairman. You certainly can answer that question. Did you 
have any correspondence with the National Committee? 

Mr. Frantz. I was not in correspondence with them. I couldn't sit 
here and tall you as a positive thing that I never wrote the National 
Committee a letter ; no. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Mr. Chairman, the attorney has so stated 

The Chairman. So you don't remember whether you wrote a letter 
to the national office or had correspondence Avith the national offices; 
is that correct ? 

Mr. Frantz. I Avas — I do remember that I Avas not in regular com- 
munication Avith the national office. I do knoAV that I Avas not sup- 
posed to be that. Mr. Gelders handled all relations Avith the national 
office. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Chairman, he says he Avorked for Mr. Gelders, 
Avho is the southern representative of' this National Committee. He 
Avas employed in that capacity. That makes him an employee of the 
National Connnittee because "Gelders Avas — and got him to* Avork for 
that purpose. 



UN-AMERirAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7875 

Mr. Fleischet}. But thnt doesn't mean he knows who the member- 
ship of the National Connuiltee is. 

Uv. Starxes. He can say when asked the question whether he does 
or does not know. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Mati'hews. Do you know who Ella Winters is? 

Mr. Fraxtz. Mr. Chairman, I want to know how, when I am asked 
these questions, whether I am supposed to answer from what I per- 
sonally know or fiom what I may i>erhaps have heard or read in the 
press. 

The Chairman. Well, do you know ? 

Mr. Frantz. This question is. Have I ever heard of Ella Winters? 
I would like to answer 

Mr. Starnes. May I suggest. Dr. Matthews, "Do you know them 
l^ersoiuilly or by reputation to be- 

Mr. Matthews. I think I can ask it in another form. Do you know 
Ella Winters, vice chairman of the National Committee for People's 
Rights was also a member of the Committee for Professional Groups 
for Browder and Ford? 

Mr. Fleischer. I ol)ject because he assumes a state of facts not 
in the evidence. 

The Chairman. He is asking if he knows Ella Winters as a mem- 
ber of the Professional Groups for Browder and Ford. 

Mr. Fleischer. He asked if he knew whether Ella Winters, who 
is a member of the National Committee, is connected with another 
organization. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to ask if you accepted this in evi- 
dence when I oti'ered it in evidence, this letterhead^ 

The Chairman. That is true. 

Mr. Matthews. Then the document is in evidence ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Yli: Fleischer. Subject to my objection. 

The Chairman . AVill you repeat the question ? 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Ella Winters, vice 
chairman of the Nation Committee for People's Eights, was also a 
member of the Committee of Professional Groups for Browder and 
Ford? 

Mr. Fran-!/.. I know nothing whatever of my own personal knowl- 
edge about Ella Winters — nothing whatever. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Sherwood Anderson 
is a member of the National Committee for People's Rights and w-as 
also a member of the Committee of Professional Groups for Browder 
and Foi'd ( 

Mr. Frantz. I never met Sherwood Anderson. 

Mr. Matthews, I did not ask you that. 

Mr. Frantz. I am telling you'l don't know anything about these 
people, as far as anything that I could testify to from my own personal 
knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Winifred Chappell 
IS a member of the National Connnittee for People's Rights and 
also a member of the Committee of Professional Groups for Browder 
and Ford ? 

Mr. Frantz. I don't know anything about her either. 



7876 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Lester Cohn is a 
member of the National Committee for People's Eights and also a 
member of the Committee of Professional Groups for Browder and 
Ford ? 

Mr. Frantz. I do not know anything about them. 

]\Ir. Fleischer. In order to facilitate this type of questioning, 
may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that as long as this is in evidence, 
subject to exception, that all — that the questions be phrased in this 
manner : That all the names on here, whether he knows they are in 
any way connected with any other organization. 

The Chairman. As I understand he made the statement 

Mr. Matthews. I will read the entire list of names and ask him 
the single question. 

The Chairman. You saw the list of names there, didn't vou, 
Mr. Frantz? 

Mv. Fleischer. You saw the letterhead? 

Mr. Frantz. I didn't read it down. 

Th.e Chairman. Read the list there. Pardon me. gentlemen, there 
is a roll call and vote. 

Ml-. Fleischer. May I at this point ask one or two questions that 
I think should be cleared up with reference to the service of the 
subpena ? 

The Chairman. Not at this point because we are going to have 
to suspend. 

Mr. Fleischer. It is only two or three questions and will take 1 
or 2 minutes to clear up. I think you haven't a clear picture as to 
■what happened as far as the service of the subj)ena is concerned. 

The Chairman. I think we have been very indulgent to permit 
you to ask these questions and step aside from the usual rule, be- 
cause of the charges that were made, in order to clarify the issue. 
We have not only done that but the marshal and other people that 
he has made statements about will be brought here and the whole 
matter of his testimony, since he has made certain statements here 
under oath, I think that the whole matter should be referred to the 
district attorney's office. 

Mr. VoORHis. As I understand it vou say when you were arrested 
they charged you with vagrancy? 

Mr. Fleischer. Wasn't told of the charge until he was taken to 
the police station. 

The Chairman. We will have to sus}>end for the time being. 

Mr. Fleischer. May I make an offer of proof as to what this wit- 
ness Avoulcl testify to — as to some matters which I think will en- 
lighten the committee on some matters? 

The Chairman. You will have an opportunity to do that. 

Mr. Fleischer. I would like to do it. 

The Chairman. Before an appropriate grand jury because this 
witness made certain statements and certain charges that have been 
denied by the marshal and his office and by the investigator. I 
think the entire matter ought to go before the grand jury on the 
question of the whole question involved. 

Mr. Fleischer. May I still make an offer of proof as to what this 
witness would testify to as to the manner of service? 

The Chairman. The witness already testified. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7877 

Mr. Fleischer. No; he hasn't. If you remember, Mr. Chairman, 
that part of the inciniry was permitted and then we pursued another 
line of questioning. 

The Chairman. AVe will have to suspend and if possible will meet 
again tomorrow morning at 10:30. 

Mr. Fleischer. Not Saturday morning? 

The Chairman. "Well, we want to dispose of it so your witness 
can go. There is another witness here who wants to be heard. We 
will have to hear him in the morning, 

Mr. Fleischer, Do I understand there will be no further com- 
mittee hearing this afternoon? 

The Chairman. We will suspend until 10:30 o'clock tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon at 3:30 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 
10:30 a. m., April 23, 1940.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



TUESDAY, APRIL 23, 1940 

House of Rephesentatives. 
Committee ox Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m.. Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), 
presidinof. 

T he CiiAiKMAN. The committee will come to order. 

The Chair announces a subcommittee composed of the chairman, 
the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Mason, and the gentleman from 
California. ^Ir. Voorhis. Present are the chairman and Mr. Mason. 

Call A'our first witness. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Shea. 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand and be sworn. 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS HUMPHREY O'SHEA 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. OShea. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have a seat. Will you speak as distinctly and 
loudlv as possible so we may hear you? 

Mr. O'Shea. Certainly. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Shea, will you give you full name for the 
record ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Thomas Humphrey O'Shea. 

Mr. Matthews. Are vou an American citizen? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

]Mr. ^Iatthews. Where were you born? 

Mr. O'Shea. In Cobh, Ireland. 

Mr. Matthews. C-o-b-h ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Cobh ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. O'Shea. October 21, 1897. 

Mr. Matthews. When did vou come to the United States? 

Mr. O'Shea. In 1927. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you naturalized? 

Mr. 0'SnE.\. At the southern district court in New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. When ? 

Mr. O'Shea. In 1933. 

Mr. Matthews. Before you came to the United States what 

The Chairman. Just a second. I believe that is Mr. Onda. 

Mr. Fleischer. Yes. 

94931— 40— vol. 13 14 7879 



7880 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. Will you step aside until Ave hear the other wit- 
ness? He is here now. 
(Witness excused.) 
I'he Chairman. Raise your rij^ht hand before 3^ou sit down. 

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW RUDOLPH ONDA 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Onda. I do. 

Mr. IMattiiews. Please give your full name for the record. 

Mr. Onda. I just want to catch my breath. I have been walking 
up the stairs. Andrew Rudolph Onda. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your address? 

Mr. Onda. 3624 East One Hundred and Fifty-first Street, Cleve- 
land, Ohio. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you an American citizen? 

Mr. Onda. I am. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born? 

Mr. Onda. Pittsburgh, Pa. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. Onda. October 23, 1904. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your present occupation? 

Mr. Onda. I am the county secretary of the Communist Party, 
Cuyahoga County. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that in Ohio? 

Mr. Onda. That is. 

Mr. Matthews. Where are your headquarters? 

Mr. Onda. 1514 Prospect, room 305. 

Mr. Matthews. Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Onda. Right. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you occupied this position ? 

Mr. Onda. December or November, I forget which, 1936. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you been a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Onda. July 1932. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Onda. Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Matthews. What positions have you held in the Communist 
Party since the time of your joining? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I am comity secretary at the present time. I have 
held no position — that is, no position such as — outside of that one. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of any leading com- 
mittees ? 

Mr. Onda. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of any factions in 
trade-unions? 

Mr. Onda. Oh, no. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of a trade-union? 

Mr. Onda. Oh no. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of a trade-union? 

'^h\ Fleischer. Don't sav "oh." 

Mr. Onda. Xo. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you held any positions of organizing besides 
the one you have now? 



UX-AMEUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 78§1 

Mr. Onda. X(» — yes: I have— yes: T have. 

Mr. Matthews. Please state what that was. 

Mr. OxDA. I was the State secretary of the Uneini^loynieiit Coun- 
cils in 19'^;5 — I believe '3-t — somewhere alon^i' there. 

Mr. Matthews. "Was that an organization under the national lead- 
ership ot" Herbert Benjamin? 

Mr. OxDA. Xo. That is not. That organization was amalgamated 
with several other unemployment organizations, I believe, at least 
seven or eight other unemployed organizations, into what later be- 
came the Workers' Alliance — at the amalgamation — after the amalga- 
mation it became the Workers' Alliance of America. I forget the 
year on that. 

^Mr. Matthkws. Well, who was the national leader of the Unem- 
ployed Councils? 

Mr. OxDA. At that particular time? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. OxDA. Well. I was — I was national chairman of one of those 
years. I forget which one now. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Who was the national executive secretary? 

]Mr. OxDA. I think — I think — T am not sure — well, that is a mat- 
ter of public record. You could look that up without any trouble. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you have denied it was Herbert Benjamin. 
But. as a matter of fact, it was Herbert Benjamin? 

Mr. OxDA. I am testifying here : you are not. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes: but you denied Herbert Benjamin was the 
leader of this Unemployed Council. 

Mr. Ox'DA. I did not deny that Herbert Benjamin held a position 
or didn't liold a position. Xow. let me testifj\ You ask the ques- 
tions. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to have the record read to the wit- 
ness where the witness denied it and ask him if he persists in the 
denial. 

The Chairman. Yon were asked the question whether or not Her- 
bert Benjamin was leader of the Unemployed Councils. Do yon 
know whether or not he was the leader at any time while you were 
connected with it ? 

Mr. OxDA. Of the Unemployed Councils? He was one — he was 
not the leader. Refer to the record and you will .see. 

The Chatrmax. What position did he hold? 

Mr. Ma'ithews Was he national executive secretary? 

Mr. Oxda. I could not tell you that. I don't know. 

Ml'. ^Iatthews. You were national chairman? 

]Mr. Oxda. One of those years. 

^Ir. ^Iatthews. Who was the national executive secretary while 
you were chairnuui — national executive chairman? 

Mr. Oxda. T was under the impression Amter was. 

]Mr. Matthews. Your recollection is faulty in that respect. 

Mr. Fleischer. He has already answered the question, Mr. 
Chairman. 

Tlie Ctiair:\iax. Just ask the question. 

Mr. Matthews. I want to know if the witness is sure that Amter 
was or was not. or just what it was. 

Mr. Fleischer. He testified that he was under the impression that 
he was. 



7882 un-amp:rican propaganda activities 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you national chairman? 

Mr. Onda. I think for 1 year or thereabouts. 

Mr. Matthews. And what year was that? 

Mr. Onda. I think it was 1934. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you participate in any nationally organized 
demonstrations or marches in that connection? 

Mr. Onda. I did. 

Mr. Matihew^s. Will you please state what they were? 

Mr. Onda, In 1932. when Herbert Hoover was President, when 
there was no relief for the unemployed, although there were mil- 
lions of us, I took part in what we called at that time a national 
hunger march, and I was in charge of the Ohio delegation to that 
march, where we had to sleep on New York Avenue, I believe it 
was, for a couple of days in the streets to petition 

The Chairman. Just answer the question. 

Mr. Onda. Well, I am trying to, the best I can. 

The Chairman. The thing he is asking you is what demonstra- 
tions did you take part in. You took part in one. You just de- 
scribed it. 

Mr. Onda. Yes. 

The Chairman. Any others? 

Mr. Onda. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Nationally organized demonstrations? 

Mr, Onda. I think there was one in nineteen — not a demonstra- 
tion; no. I wouldn't call it that. It was a convention more. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Arnold Johnson? 

Mr. Onda. I decline to answer that question. I know him, but I 
don't think that is the business here for me to say. 

The Chairman. Now listen, it is a matter for the committee to 
determine on what ground. Do you decline to say whether you 
know Arnold Jolinson? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I know that other names have been mentioned 
in tliis committee find it difficult to hold their jobs; and I know that 
other names mentioned before this committee — and names mentioned 
before this committee will find it harder to find jobs. Government 
or private. Now, I didn't Avant to become a partner to anything of 
that kind. 

The Chairman. ATell, it is very strange to the chairman that you 
and others belong to organizations that you considei* legal, that you 
claim to be j^erfectly all right, and yet you decline to give the com- 
mittee information on the grounds that someone who is connected 
with the organization may be injured or discriminated against. Now, 
we are here to get infoVmation. and it is vital information. We 
have tried to accord members of the Communist Party and its 
officials an opportunity to give us information. Now. we are asking 
you for important information, and the Chair expects you to answer 
the questions. 

Mr. Onda. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Whether or not you know this man? 

Mr. Onda. I want to help this committee. 

The Chairman. All right ; then answer the questions. 

Mr. Onda. Now, you made a statement. Mr. Chairman 

The Chairman. I" don't care for any connnent. I am asking you 
to answer the questions. 



UN-AMEUI(*AX PROPAGANDA ArTIVITIES 7883 

Mr. Onda. But you made a comment to me. 

Tlie Chairman. That is all ripjht. I am not askin*:: for comment 
fi'om you to the Chair. 

Mr. P'leischer. Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. I am askin<r you if you will 
answer the question. Will you or will you not? 

Mr. Onda. Your (juestion was on the i-eason, and you made com- 
ments on the reason. Mr. Chairman. You look at the record. 

The Chairman. You made your statement as to the reason you 
decline to answer the question. 

Mr. Onda. And you stated that it seemed mi<>hty — didn't seem 
ri<rht that a I)ai'ty called itself a lej^al party was afraid of havina; 
people discriminated. Now, it is a fact that not only Communists 
are discriminated for political reasons but also Democrats, under 
certain conditions, and you must be aware of those thinjrs. 

The Chairman. That has absolutely nothing to do with this. Do 
you decline to answer the question? 

Mr. Onda. I do, for the reasons given. 

The Chairman. All right ; the Chair instructs you to do so. and 
you decline to do so? 

Mr. Onda. For the reasons stated. 

The Chairman. You have stated the reasons. Ask the next 
question. 

Mr. Matthews. I understood the witness to say he did know^ 
Arnold Johnson. 

The Chair:man. He did say so and declined to say who he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Arnold Johnson one of the active leaders in 
the unemploved movement in the State ot Ohio? 

Mr. Onda." When? 

jSIr. Matthews. Xow. 

Mr. Onda. I couldn't tell you now. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you know him in that capacity? 

Mr. Onda. Oh. I knew him for several 3^ears in the capacity of 
leader of unemployed organizations in Ohio. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know him to be a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Onda. 1 decline to answer that. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answei'. Do you still 
decline to answer? 

Mr. Onda. I do decline. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Do vou know Yetta Land? 

Mr. Onda. I do. 

iVfr. Matthew^s. In what connection do you know Yetta Land? 

Mr. Onda. As the State chairman of the Communist Party of 
Ohio. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know A. Ericson ? 

Mi-. Onda. Otfhand I don't recall ever hearing the name. 

Mr. Matthews. Of Youngstown. Ohio. 

Mr. Onda. Don't know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Abe Lewis, of Youngstown. Ohio? 

Mr. Onda. I decline to answer, for the objections already given 
and for the reasons already given. 



7884 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to auswer the question. 
You decline to do so? 

Mr. Onda. I wouki like to make a statement on that, Mr. Chair- 
man. It might help the connnittee. 

Mr. Thomas. Just a minute, please. 

Mr. Fleischer. Now, I object to j\lr. Thomas browbeating the 
witness. 

The Chairman. No one is trying to browbeat tlie witness. The 
witness refuses to give this committee information that this committee 
is seeking. 

Mr. Fleischer. For tlie reasons already .stated in the record. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, it is not clear to me why the witness 
refuses to answer the questions about some of these people and yet 
is very frank to answer the questions about the others. That is all 
that I am trying to find out. Why is that, Mr. Witness? 

Mr. Onda. Well, you see. some of them are a matter of })ublic 
record. As a matter of fact, Arnold Johnson's connection with un- 
employed organizations is a matter of public record. Yetta Land's 
chairmanship of the Communist Party is a matter of public record. 
Now, these things this committee could get with a 2-cent stamp — 
all that information. 

Mr. Thomas. Do 1 understand where it is a matter of public 
record and where we could get the information in other places you 
are willing to give that, but where we can't get the information 
from other places you are not willing to give that ? 

Mr. Onda. No; I am not. I won't answer that question "yes" on 
either of your half of the questions because I don't think that is the 
pur]5ose oi this committee — in me was to get facts 

Mr. Thomas. And that is what we are trying to do. 

Mr. Onda. About activities 

Mr. Thomas. We are trying to get the facts, and we would like 
to have your assistance to give us the facts. 

Mr. Onda. I thought it was about my activities and facts about 
these activities. Now, this I am ready to give the committee. 

Mr. Thomas. Are you then going to say what the committee should 
have and what the committee should not have? Don't you think 
the committee should have some discretion in a matter like that? 

Mr. Onda. What is that ? I don't challenge the right of the com- 
mittee on any of these questions. 

The Chairman. All right; let us proceed, gentlemen. We have 
other witnesses here. 

Mr. Matthe'ws. Mr. Onda. you were subpenaed to appear before 
this committee and bring with you correspondence relating to your 
activities in the Communist Party. Did you bring that correspond- 
ence? 

Mr. Onda. AA^iat correspondence do you want, Mr. Matthews? 

Mr. Matthews. All correspondence dealing with your activities in 
the Communist Party or in your position in the Communist Party. 

Mr. Onda. I haven't got any — haven't kept any: therefore, I 
couldn't bring them. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have correspondence in your f>ffice? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the question. It has already been an- 
swei-ed. 



I'X-AMERICAN PROrAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7885 

The Chairman. No: it has not been answered. He says he doesn't 
liave now the correspondence, but that certainly doesn't preclude an 
inquiry wliether he ever liud any correspondence. 

Mv. Fi.KisciiER. He didn't say that. He said he didn't have any. 

The Chairman. AMnit I want to know is, did you ever have any 
corres])ondence? 

Mr. Onua. Well, we get mail occasionally; yes. 

The Chairman. What do you do with it? Destroy it? 

Mr. Onda. As I get through with it I throw it in the waste-paper 
basket. 

The Chairman. In other Avords, wlien you get a letter you read it 
and then destroy it? 

Mr. Onda. That is right. 

The Chairman. And when you write a letter you make no copy of 
the letter? 

Mr. Onda. That is right. 

The Chairman. And, in turn, the person to whom you write is 
supposed to destroy it likewise? 

Mv. Onda. That is right. Most of the time I write the letter in 
longhand. 

The Chairman. Is that the common practice in the Communist 
Party, as far as you know? 

Mr. Onda. Well, we are a little party in Cuyahoga County. 

The Chairman. But you have quite a contact with other units 
of the party, do you not? 

Mr. Onda. I don't know, of units. 

The Chairman. Of other branches of the party. 

Mr. Onda. Yes. 

The Chairman. Other organizations? 

Mr. Onda. Yes. . 

The Chairman. Can you say whether or not that is the common 
practice of the party? 

Mr. Onda. I know it is in Cuyahoga County. 

The Chairman. You don't know anywdiere else? 

Mr. Onda. I don't. 

Mr. Matthews. How long has that been a practice in Cuyahoga 
County ? 

Mr. Onda. Since I have been in the office. 

jVIr. ^Mattheavs. For 4 years almost? 

Mr. Onda. Yes. 

Mr. ^VlATTHmvs. You have never kept any correspondence in that 
period ? 

Mr. Onda. Never held them in the office ; no. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Do you keep them anywhere else ? 

Mr. Onda. No. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Have you ever kept them anywhere else? 

Mr. On-da. No. 

Mr. jNIatthews. Did you bring any membership lists or member- 
ship records Mitli you, as instructed in the subpena which was served 
on you? 

^Ir. Onda. I have no records, no membership records. 

Mr. Matthews. Are there anv membership records in your dis- 
trict? 



7886 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. (3nda. Not in my county ; there are no membership records. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know who are the members of the 
Communist Party in Cuyahoga County? 

Mr. Onda. How do I know? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Onda. Well, it is not my job to know all of the members of 
the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know any members of the Communist 
Party in Cuyahoga County? 

Mr. Onda. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. How many members of the Communist Party are 
there in your county? 

Mr. Onda. I would say about 1,800. 

Mr. Matthews. Approximately 1,800. How many of the 1,800 
do you know? 

Mr. Onda. I wouldn't even want to make a guess. I never made 
a — I never tried to figure it out — how many I knew personally. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know whether they are members of 
the Communist Party, or not? 

Mr. Onda. Well, 1 have no occasion to do any work where they 
have to prove to me they are members of the Communist Party or 
not. 

Mr. Matthews. Do they present books to you, or do you issue 
books to them, and therebv know they are members of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I don't issue books. I sign their — when the 
cards come through for 

]\Ir. Matthews. The application card? 

Mr. Onda. Yes, sir ; as the county secretary I sign it. 

Mr. Matthews. What is done with that card after you sign it? 

Mr. Onda. I turn it over to the State man. 

Mr. Matthews. AVliat does he do with it ? 

Mr. Onda. I don't know. I know what lie is supposed to do with 
it ; but what he does, from my own knowledge, I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. What is he supposed to do with it ? 

Mr. Onda. He is supposed to send it on — get a book for it and 
so on. 

Mr. Matthp:ws. Send it on where? 

Mr. Onda. That, I don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. To national headquarters? 

Mr. Onda. That. I wouldn't be able to tell you. 

Mr. Matthews. You have never heard where it is sent? 

Mr. Onda. I know it is supposed to be recorded. That is, just the 
number, you see, in our Daily Worker. Every once in a while there 
is a cohnnn tells how many were recruited in such and such a place. 
For example in this Daily Worker that I have here. That is all 
they need them for. 

Mr. Matthews. Only the numbers of the books are recorded, is 
that your meaning? 

Mr. Onda. The what ? 

Mr. Matthews. Only the numbers in the books are recorded? 

Mr. Onda. Not to my knowledge — not in our county. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you bring with you the names and addresses 
of all branch and unit functionaries, as instructed in the subpena ? 



UN-AMERirAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7887 

Mr. Onda. I do not keep them. 

Mr. Matthkws. Have you ever seen such a list of names and ad- 
(h'e.sses of branch and unit functionaries? 

Mr. Onda. T have not seen such a list. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. Tender your jurisdiction? 

Mr. Onda. (Xo answer.) 

Ml'. Mattiikws. Did you hrino- any financial records? 

^Ir. Onda. I have none. 

Mr. Matthews. AVith you? 

Mr. Onda. I luive none. 

Mr. Matthews. Are there any under 3'our control? 

Mr. Onda. Any i-ecords? 

Mr. Matthews. Any financial records? 

Mr. Onda. Xo records. 

Mr. Matthews. Or in your custody? 

Mr. Onda. I have no records on it. 

Mr. Matthews. Does an}^ one under your jurisdiction have cus- 
tody of such records? 

Mr. Onda. Under me ? As far as my instructions are concerned 
there are no records kept, so I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Matthews. No financial records, you are speakin<r of? 

Mr. Onda. That is ri<xht. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman. ri<>ht at this point — as I under- 
stand, you believe that you are part of a political party, isn't that 
true ? 

Mr! Onda. That is rioht. 

Mr. Thomas. Don't you as a political party have to make any 
declaration in the State of Ohio as to revenue and expenses? 

Mv. Onda. For all elect if m campaigns Ave do. 

Mr. Thomas. Then you have those records? 

Mr. Onda. I don't haA'e them on hand. I was never in char<>e of 
the election campaigns. You see. I was never in charge of election 
campaigns. 

Mr. Thomas. But you kept the records of the revenues and ex- 
penses in political campaigns? 

Mr. Onda. If I recall correctly those records are with the State 
secretary of the State of Ohio, if I recall correctly. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

The Chairman. Now, you say you were born in Ohio, is that 
correct? 

Mr. Onda. No. I said I was born in Pittsburgh, Pa. 

The Chairman. Did vou graduate from high school? 

Mr. Onda. Sir? 

The Chairman. Are you a graduate of a high school? 

Mr. Onda. No: I am not. 

The Chairman. AVhat was vour education? 

Mr. Onda. What is that ? 

The Chairman. "What did j^our education consist of? 

Mr. Onda. Well. I got most of my education right in the mills. 

The Chairman. AAliat mills did you work in? 

Mr. Onda. I worked for the National Tube in Pittsburgh. I 
worked for J. c^- L., Pittsburgh. 

The Chairman. Now. after you became a membei- of the Com- 
munist Party in 1932, what work have you done since 1932? 



7888 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Onda. You know that was a tough time. 

The Chairman. I am asking you if there was any worl^ you did 
between '32 and the ]Dresent time ? 

]\Ir. Onda. Here and there, odd jobs. 

The Chairman. What jobs were they? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I worked on the Bulkley Building tearing out 
walls at one time. 

The Chairman. What is your trade? 

Mr. Onda. I am a miner, steel worker. I can do labor work of 
any kind. 

The Chairman. Do you belong to the Steel Workers' Union? 

Mr. Onda. No; I don't. There wasn't any at that time. 

The Chairman. I believe you stated you don't belong to any union? 

Mr. Onda. That is right.' 

The Chairman. So that from 1932 to the present, how much of 
that time; have you worked — done anything? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I worked in "32-'33, quite a bit. I even washed 
dishes during that i^eriod. Anything I could lay my hands on. for 
that matter, and then I worked on W. P. A. from Thanksgiving 
Day — just before Thanksgiving Day. I believe it was 1935, now, I 
wouldn't know for sure, to about 1936. 

The Chairman. "Wliat work did you do on W. P. A.? 

Mr. Onda. Oh, just digging a ditch. 

The Chairman. Was that your job, digging a ditch? 

Mr. Onda. Yes; digging a ditch. 

Thej Chairman. During the time that you worked there" you 
worked digging a ditch? 

Mr, Onda. Most of the time, 

Mi\ Fleischer. He means digging ditches, I suppose— not digging 
a ditch. 

The Chairman. I imagine it would be more correct to say "a ditch." 

Mr, Fleischer. I imagine more correct "ditches." 

Mr. Onda. I don't see the purpose 

The Chairman. Didn't you say "a ditch" ? 

Mr. Thomas. I don't think that is important. 

The Chairman. Of course it isn't, 

Mr. Thomas. What is the witness working at now ? What is your 
present employment ? 

Mr. Onda. t am the county secretary of Cuyahoga County. 

Mr. Thomas. You have no employment other than that? 

Mr, Onda. No. 

Mr. Matthews. What are your functions as county secretary of 
Cuvahoga Count v? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I am the head of the county executive— that is. 
my job is to prepare the agenda for county executives — ])repare— I 
do some research work for the county executive, as such. My job is 
to check up on the various section organizers in the county and, to 
the best of my ability, to keep things going, you know. 

Mr. Matthews. How many section organizers are there under your 
jurisdiction ? 

Mr, Onda, There are 6. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please name them ? 

Mr. Onda. For the reasons I already stated I will not give their 
names. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 78H9 

Mr. Mattiikws. Do yoii know who they are ? 

]Mr. Onda. I do, of course. 

TIu' (''HATi{:vr AX. Do you (locliiic to answer? 

]\Ir. ()?-;i)A. Yes. 

The Chairman. The Chair instructs you to answer and you (Undine. 
Proceed. 

Mr. INIatthews. In your woi-k as county secretary do you make 
speed les? 

Mr. OxDA. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you make speeches for orjianizations other 
than the Communist Pai"ty? 

Mr. OxDA. Whenever I am invited, I do. 

Mr Matthews. In what or for what organizations have you made 
speeelies recently? 

Tiie Chairman. The chairman wants to note that ]\Ir. Tlu)mas is 
present Avhich constitutes a quorum cfjmposed of the chairnutu, Mr. 
Mason, Mr. Tliomas, and Mr. Voorliis. Proceed. 

Mr. Onda. All right. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Fleischer. What was the question? 

Mr. Matthews. For what oro-anizations have you made speeches 
recen.tly ? 

Mr. Onda. Well, I spoke on the campus of the Ohio University. 

Mr. Matthews. At Cohunbus? 

Mr. Onda. At Columbus. Gee, I don't think 

^Ir. jNIatthews. Have you spoken before any meetings of tlie 
Workers' Alliance? 

Mr. Onda. Xot in the last — oh, much more than a year. I think. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you spoken for any meetings of the 
Amei'ican League for Peace and Democracy, prior to its demise in 
February ? 

Mr. Onda. I don't think I ever spoke for them. I don't recall ever 
speaking before them. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a chapter or local branch of the Ameri- 
can League in Cleveland? 

Mr. Fleischer. I don't see what this has to do with the questions 
and scope of his activities, as to whether or not there was a chapter 
of fhe American League. I think Mr. ^Matthews would be more 
famdiar v\-ith that than the witness. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to the question on the ground it is in- 
com])etent, irrelevant, and immaterial. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, do you want the witness to answer 
the question? 

The CHAii;:\rAx. If he knows. Do you know if there was a 
chapter? 

Mr. Onda. I know there was a mass meeting where Mr. Matthews 
spoke with Bishop Brown where I attended. 

The CiiAiitMAN. You know about that? 

Mr. Ox DA. Yes. 

The Chairman. That is the only one you know about? 

Mr. OxDA. That is the only one I attended. 

Mr. MA'rrHKws. Where was that ? 

Mr. OxDA. Ii was in the Moo.se Temple, I believe. 



7890 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Mattheavs. In \yhat city? 

Mr. Onda. Cleveland, Ohio.' 

Mr, Matthf.avs. On what date? 

Mr. Onda. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you testifying nnder oatli now ? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that. Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Let ns proceed. 

Mr. Fleischer. And ask ^Ii'. Matthews be admonished not to ask 
such type of questions. 

Mr. Thomas. I tliink. Mr. Chairman, the ori<rinal question was 
whetlier there was a unit of the American Leaojue, and so forth. 

Mr. Fleischer. That wasn't the question. 

The Chairman. Whether there Avas a chapter in that town. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to be called to tlie witness stand to 
lefute the witness' testimony. 

The Chairman. Well, I don't think 

Mr. Fleischer. And if he is called I would like to cross-examine 
him. 

Mr. Matthews. The Avitness has falsely stated 

Mr, Fleischer. I object to that. Mr. Matthews is testifying and 
he has not been sworn. If he Avants to testify let him take the chair. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. 

Mr. Fleischer. I ask it be stricken from the record. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Fleischer. T ask it be stricken from the record. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Mr. Onda, is there a "Yanks Are Not Coming 
Committee"? 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that on the same ground. 

The Chairman. Let hmi finish his question. 

Mr. Mattheavs. The question has been asked. 

The Chairman. Has lie asked you the c^uestion? Can you ansAver 
it? 

Mr. Onda. WTiat is the cjuestion? 

Mr. Matthews. Is there a "Yanks Are Not Coming Committee"? 

Mr. Onda. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there a "Keep America Out of Imperialistic 
War" in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Onda. I have seen some articles in the papers but not to my 
personal knowledge. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Have you participated in any Avay in the organi- 
zation of such a committee? 

Mr. Onda. No. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did the Communist Party participate in the re- 
cent students' demonstration around the slogan "The Yanks Are Not 
Coming''? 

Mr. Onda. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there such a demonstration held, to your 
knowledge, in Cleveland last Aveek? 

Mr. Onda. That I Avould not know. I Avas here last week, you see. 

Mr. Mattheavs. I have no more cjuestions to ask the Avitness. Mr. 
Chairman. 

The Chairman. AYould you supi^ort the United States in case of 
A\arbetAveen the Ignited States and Russia? 

Mr. Onda. Is there such a Avar? 



UN-AMERR'AN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ygQ^ 

The Chaii:.m.\x. Well, in the event there were such a war where 
would your allegiance lie? With the United States or Russia? 

]Mr. Fi.iasciiKR. Ask him if there was a war between the North and 
South what he would do? 

Mr. OxDA. If there was a war between the North and South what 
would you do? 

The Chairman. T am the one that is doin^ the askino; of the ques- 
tions. I am askint; you the questi(m whether or not in the event 
of war between the United States and Russia wdiether you would 
support the United States? Now. do you decline to answer? 

Mr. Onda. I answered that question for you. 

The Chairman. What is the answer? 

Mr. OxDA. I said there is no such war. 

The Chairman. Well, if there was such a war? 

Mr. Onda. And as far as the people of America are concerned 
I am sure the people will not have such a war. 

The Chairman. Would you support the country in such a war? 

^Ir. Onda. When that time comes you call me back and I will give 
you the answer. 

Mr. Thomas. In other words, you are dodgino; the question? 

Mr. Onda. And I asked the question whether Mr. Dies would sup- 
port the North in a war against the South. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dies, would support the Ignited States. 

Mr. Thomas. You have dodged the same question the same as any 
other Communist dodges the question. 

Mr. Onda. What do you mean "dodge'"? 

Mr. Thomas. You know what the word means. 

^Ir. Onda. You are screwy. 

Mr. Voorhis. Can you conceive of a situation of international con- 
flict in which you would feel called upon to give aid and comfort to 
an enemy of the United States? 

^Ir. P'leischer. Mr. Chairman, may I object to this type of ques- 
tion on the ground it is highly speculative and hypothetical? This 
witness is to be examined as to what he knows or specific acts or- 
functions he has <l<me. Any questions to disclose the operation of 
his mind is outside the scope of the committee. I except to Mr. 
Voorhis* question. 

Mr. Thomas. I don't think you can get anything from this type 
of witness. 

Mr. Fleischer. I object to that remark by Mr. Thomas and ask it 
be stricken. 

The Chairman. The witness is dismissed. 

Come around, Mr. O'Shea. 

Mr. Fleischer. Mr. Chairman, do you expect to call any other 
witnesses as far as the Conununist Party is concerned for today? 

The Chairman. Well, that is something that w^ill have to be de- 
termined. AYe have a number of other witnesses but I don't presume 
we will call any of them today. 

Ml-. Fleischer. I would like to know where we stand on this so I 
will know whether we go ahead today. 

The Chairman. There won't be any Communist witnesses called 
today. 

Mr. Fleischer. That is definite? 



7892 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. That is definite. All right; let us proceed. I mean 
any witness that you would represent, you or Mr. Cohn would rep- 
i-esent. 

Mr. Fleischer. That is right. Not today? 

The Chairman. That is right. 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS HUMPHREY O'SHEA— Resumed 

The Chairman. Let us proceed, gentlemen. 

Mr. Matthews. We have your biographical sketch in the record 
already. 

Before you came to the United States in 1927, Mr. O'Shea, did you 
participate in any political activities in Ireland? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. I was a member of the Irish Republican Army 
from approximately 1917 to 1924, while activities were in existence. 
Later then I was still a member of the Irish Republican Army. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, when you came to the United States what 
type of employment did you obtain? 

Mr. O'Shea. I was first employed at the New York Central. Later 
I was employed with the United States Lines in Hoboken and finally 
would up in the transit field — Interborough Rapid Transit Co., New 
York City. 

Mr. Matthews. Interborough Rapid Transit Co., of New York 
City? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How long were you employed by the Interbor- 
ough Rapid Transit Co.? 

Mr. O'Shea. Approximately 11 years, 

Mr. Matthews. In what capacity? 

Mr. O'Shea. As turnstile mechanic — maintenance man. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that your present employment? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, at the present time I am a W. P. A. worker. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, in your work as an employee of the Inter- 
borough Rapid Transit Co., in New York City, did you come to know 
the Transport Workers' Union, which is a labor union in that field? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Will you please state, to the best of your knowl- 
edge, how many members there are in the Transport Workers' Union 
of New York?' 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, the leadership of the Transport Workers' Union 
states that in New York City there were approximately 50,000. I say 
there were approximately 35,000. 

Ml'. Matthews. Is the Transpoi-t Workers' Union nationally 
organized ? 

Mr. O'Shea. It is an international union. 

Mr. Matthews. An international union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the largest local situated in New York City? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; it is. Largest local is New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Where else does the Transport Workers' Union 
have any appreciable organization? 

Mr. O'Shea. They have got a closed-shop contract in Juneau, 
Alaska. 



rX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7893 

Mr. Matthews. Closed-shop eoiiliaft ? 

Ml'. O'Shea. Yes. And have orgiuiizations in other cities but no 
contracts, witli tlic exception. I tliiiik. of Kentucky, and a few small 
j)laces. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the Transport Workers' Union have a closed- 
shop contract in New York ^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. Practically everythino; on Avheels in NeAV York 
City with the exception of a few small bus lines that the Amaltja- 
mated Association has. That is the A. F. of L. . 

Mr. ^Matthews. Do you know wluit the international membership 
of the union is? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, accordino- to the official figures and statements 
from time to time it is approxnnatelv 90.000 men. 

:Mr. Mattheavs. About 90,000? 

Mr. 0*Shf.\. About 90.000 : yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Xow. Mr. O'Shea, do you know Charles McGin- 
nity ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes : I know Charles McGinnity. 

'Mr. Matthews. Will you please state when and how and under 
what circumstances you became acquainted with Charles McGinnity? 

Mr. O'Shea. My first contact with Charles McGinnity was during 
the activities for the Irish movement. I happened to meet him in 
LiA'erpool. He was working for the Irish Republican Army and I was 
on the same job. Later I met him in the city of New York when 
he was a member of the Irish Workers' Club. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were the headquarters of the Irish Work- 
ers' Club? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, the Irish Workers' Club at that time had several 
branches. One branch was located where I live, in my locality, at 
St. Ann's Avenue in the Bronx. I liappened to meet him at that 
particular time more or less by accident. I hadn't seen him for a 
number of years previously. Simply asked him what he was doing. 

Mr. Matthews. And what conversation did you have with Mr. 
McGinnity at that time? 

Mr. O'Shea. He then mentioned to me about those Irish Workers' 
Clubs, which I didn't know up to that time about, so I asked him 
what the purpose of the organization was. and many other ques- 
tions. So he simply stated it was for the purpose of organizing 
the Irish in the United States and making them class conscious. 

Mr. Matthews. Making them "class conscious"? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he explain that any further? 

Mr. O'Shea. No, no: he did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he discuss with you the question of any trade- 
union organization ? 

]Mr. O'Shea. AVell. as it so happened, it came — I drew his atten- 
tion to the fact that I had already discussed in the transit field the 
])Ossibility of organizing those Avorkers. which for a number of years, 
or. as a matter of fact, for 20 years, had not been organized and I 
had contact with a numlier of men and I thought something might 
be done to the organization. 

Then he stated to me. ''Whv. there is an organization already in 
the field." 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Did he tell vou what that was? 



7894 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. No; he didn't explain it to me at all. Bnt he just 
simply told me that there was an organizational group in the field 
and 

Mr. Matthews. Did he suggest that you get in touch with that 
group ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. He suggested I should contact those people. 
So I arranged that this group should come to my home, which they 
did. 
. Mr. Matthews. How many were in that group? 

Mr. O'Shea. There were — I don't know whether it was three or 
four. I know there were three. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you remember the names of the persons ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Who came to your home ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. The leader of the group was a man by the 
name of Peter Starr. 

Mr. Matthews. S-t-a-r-r? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. Another chap by the name of Adams and 
another chap by the name of Carr. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know their first names? 

Mr. O'Shea. No. Peter Starr is the only one I knew by their 
first name. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you discuss with the group when they 
first met at your home ? 

Mr. O'Shea. I asked the method of organization and what they 
intended to do and they had a more or less of a blueprint of the 
organizational set-up as they planned. They stated, of course, what 
they intended to set up — small groups of men, not more than 20, 
with an executive. 

The purpose was, as they stated to me at the time, was to protect 
the men on the job so that in case that anything might go wrong 
with one group the other group would still function. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what did you do after you had that first 
meeting with respect to organization? 

Mr. O'Shea. Then they asked me if I could contact anybody in a 
given territory of the Interborough Rapid Transit Co.— that was 
the uptown district for the county of Bronx — in the shops, barns, 
or terminals. So I said, "yes," I 'had contacts there in one of the 
principal shops, One Hundred and Seventy-ninth Street— inspection 
barn of the elevated division, 

I arranged there to bring a group of men workers, approximately 
five or six, to a meeting to meet this organizational group, which 
was arranged some week or two later and held at One Hundred and 
Thirty-eighth Street in the Bronx around Cypress — between Cypress 
and Brook Avenue in an apartment. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know at the time you were dealing with 
these men, Starr and Carr and Adams and McGinnity, whether or 
not they were members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. No, I didn't know at that time,*but I learned later, of 
course, they were. 

Mr. Matthews. You learned later they were? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state briefly the circumstances as 
they developed which lead you to the discovery that they were mem- 
bers of the Communist Party? 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7895 

Mr. O'SiiEA. After our first meeting, as I stated, between the em- 
ployees of tlie Interborougli Co. and the concentration group, the 
meetings flopped. It was due in a great measure to the question of 
nationality which had arisen between the two groups — the concen- 
tration group, which consisted mainly of Jewish fellow^s, and the 
miion group, which consisted mainly of Irish. As you know, the 
Irish are extremely nationalistic and I Avas in a hotbed between the 
two forces to try and make them weld. The result was that our 
meetings were a flop, a failure; so I naturally warned Starr, who 
was the head of the concentration group, that if he continued the 
practice our organization would go up in smoke. 

Mr. Matthews. Before you go on will you explain wdiat a "con- 
centration group'' or "unit'' is? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, for the information of the committee I would 
like to 

The Chairman. AVhat is that ? I did not get that. 

Mr. O'Shea. For the information of the committee I would like 
to explain what this "concentration group'' is. 

The Chairmax. Don't talk too fast and talk as distinctly as possi- 
ble so we can hear you. 

Mr. O'Shea. All right. In 1084 the Communist Party apparently 
had failed to make any headway in the trade-union movement of the 
United States and an extraordinary conference was called by the 
Communist Party of members from the United States and Canada, 
which was held in the Finnish Hall in New York City, and a defi- 
nite program of action was adopted at this special conference. 

It was arranged that what was known as an "Open Letter" should 
be ])repared and sent to all secretaries of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. At this point, Mr. O'Shea. may I ask you to iden- 
tify this document i Is this a copy of the Open Letter to which you 
refer ? 

(Handing document to the witness.) 

Mr. O'Shea. This is a copy of the Open Letter, gentlemen. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a supplement to the Daily Worker of July 
13, 1933, entitled "An Open Letter to All Party Members." I ask 
that this be marked in evidence as "O'Shea Exhibit No. 1." 

The CHAiR:\rAX. It will be so marked. 

(The supplement to the Daily Worker, dated July 13, 1933, was 
marked "O'Shea Exhibit No. 1.") 

Mr. Matthews. Now,, will you proceed with the explanation of 
this Open Letter^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, this Open Letter was divided into various 
parts : 

(«) The organization of a firm bMsis for our Party and tho revolutionary 
trade-union movement among tlie decisive strata of the American workers in 
the nK)St imi)ortant industrial centers: 

(h) The consolidation and strengthening of the revolutionary trade-unions, 
especially revolutionai-y unions of the miners, steel and metal, textile and 
marine workers, and systematic worlv in the reformist trade unions, above ail 
among the reformist unions of miners and railroad worlvers, with a view to 
organizing a broad revolutionary trade-union opposition: 

(c) The organization and niobili/.atiou of the millions of unemployed, to- 
gether witli the factory workers, for their most iirgent needs and the organiza- 
tion of the struggle for unemployment insurance as the central immediate 
struggle of the party ; 

id) The transformation of the Daily Worker into a really revolutionary 
mass paper, into an agitator and organizer of our work; 

94Ji:Jl— 40 — vol. 1:3 !•", 



7896 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

(c) The wide development of a new cadres of workers; the establishment 
of really collectively-working leading bodies of our movement; and the im- 
provement of the work of these leading bodies by the drawing in of new capable 
working class elements. 

In order to carry out these tasks, we worked out a concentration plan and 
pledged ourselves to transfer the center of our work to a number of selected 
most important large factories, subdistricts and districts. .The entire work of 
the party and the best forces of the party were to be directed first of all to 
building up and consolidating the party and revolutionary trade-union move- 
ment in the most important industrial centers of the country, to effectively and 
systematically win the decisive sections of American workers, free them from 
the influence of the reformist and l)ourgeois parties, mobilize for the struggle 
against the bourgeoisie, and get our influence solidly established in these centers. 
We must do everything in our power to expose before the toiling masses of the 
entire country the utter bankruptcy and vacillating petty bourgeoisie, hence its 
inability to lead a consistent struggle against monopoly capitalism, it is our task 
to show to the petty bourgeoisie and nonproletarian masses of the country that 
they can hope for nothing under finance capitalism. 

That is the complete contents of the Open Letter as was passed 
at this special conference which was to be acted upon by all those 
various sections. 

The Chairman. That letter was to embrace the program that you 
all agreed to put into effect? 

Mr. O'Shea. That the Communist Party as a ^Yhole were to put 
into effect in all the major industries in the country. 

The Chairman. That was what vear? 

Mr. O'Shea. 1933. 

Mr. Matthews. Open Letter dated July 13, 1933? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, included in those major industries or tields 
of organization, was there the transit field? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. The transit field was one of the principal in- 
dustries where the party had concentrated. As I have stated, I mef 
a group of this concentration force which had alreach^ been estab- 
lished in the transit field to carry out the instructions of the Open 
Letter. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Matthew^s, what does the transit field include? 

Mr. Matthews. "Will you answer that? 

Mr. O'Shea. The transit field includes all taxies, busses, all pas- 
senger vehicles on the streets, subways in the city of New York. 

Mr. Mati^heavs. Now, Mr. O'Shea, I show you a photostatic copy 
of a portion of the Party Organizer for August-Se])tember 1933, the 
Party Organizer issued by the central committee of the Communist 
Party of the United States. Will you please state briefly what the 
Party Organizer was? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, the Party Organizer was an official pamphlet 
issued particularly for the guidance of Communist organizers on 
mass work in the trade-union field or any other field, whatever the 
case may arise. 

Mr. Mattheavs. I wnsh to introduce that in evidence. 

The Chairman. It is so ordered. 

(The Party Organizer referred to by Mr. Matthews was received 
in evidence and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, on ]iages 24: and 25 of this particular issue 
of the Party Organizer, I wish to read you the following : 

"Concentrate on Transportation." Next concentrate for New York : Railroad. 
On this we have done practically nothing, although the issues are there for 
us to mobilize the railroad workers. 



rx-AMKincAX i'K(»i'al;axda ACTIVITIES 7897 

AnotliiT point I think wi> slionkl consider for concentration is city trans- 
port. Transport in all bii;- cities plays a very important political role. I 
thinlc it is a lieUl that we nuist concentrate on. We have nothing there yet. In 
addition to concentrating on transport we can use the election campaign that 
we are now entering to put forward the i)roper issues, connecting the question 
of low fare, as it affects the workers generally, with the conditions of the 
trans)>ort workers. 

Now I want to state that on the question of concentration the district leader- 
sliip set tlie pace. Each and evj>ry one of us on the staff must give his major 
attention to a point of concentration. I don't mean the whole industry; I 
mean picking out certain points of concentration within the industries. We 
must set the pace. 

Now, this article is by Charles Krumbein. AVho was Charles 
Kruiubein? 

ISrr. O'SuFA. Charles Kriimbem, when I first met him, was secre- 
tary of the Communist Party of the State of New York and a mem- 
ber of the Connnunist national o-roup. 

Mi: Matthews. Do yon know what position Charles Krumbein 
occupies at the present time? 

Mr. O'Shea. At the present time I don't know. I haven't been 
interested. 

ISIr. ISlA'rriiEws. I show you a copy of the Party Organizer or a 
])ortion of it, for March 1035. Have you ever seen that copy of the 
Party Organizer? 

(Handing exhibit to the -svitness.) 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir, I have seen this. Yes, I have seen this 
article. 

;Mr. M.vtthews. On page 23 of this particular issue of Party Or- 
ganizer there begins an article entitled: ''Harlem Concentration on 
Transport, bv Louis Sass, Harlem.'' I ask this be marked in evi- 
dence as O'Shea Exhibit No. 3. 

(The document referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked 
"O'Shea Exhibit No. 3," and received in evidence.) 

"Will you please state brieflv the gist of this article as you are 
familial- with it, Mr. O'Shea ?^ 

Mr. O'Shea. This article, gentlemen, is dealing with the particu- 
lar orgaidzational job in one of the major shops of the transport 
industry in New York City, the Interborough Rapid Transit Co. 
The article is written by Louis Sass, who at that time, who wdien I 
first met him was section organizer of section 4 of district 2 in New 
York City, which was the Harlem section. This major shop of the 
Interborough Rapid Transit Co. is situated in the center of Harlem 
and has :ii)|)roximately 1,200 employees. 

It was in this particular sho[j that this letter was specially written 
for, for concentration work and the building of the party and the 
building of the transport union. 

Mv. ^L^'iTHEWs. I show you a photostatic copy of the portion of 
the Party Organizer for December 1933, Mr. O'Shea. Can you iden- 
tify that ? 

"(Handing exhibit to the witness.) 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; I can identify this. 

iVIr. Maithews. As a dociunent Avith which you are familiar? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

]VIr. Ma'ithews. On page 21 of this issue of the Party Organizer 
there is au article entitled, ''Communists Must Build Party During 
Strikes." 



7898 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Was it your experience tliat the Communist Party utilized a strike 
for political as well as economic purposes? 

Mr, O'ShEuV. In my estimation it was purely for political purposes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, on page 18 of this Party Organizer, there 
appears the following statement with reference to city transport : 

City transport — last week's report shows that we have a group of about 40 
Avorkers in this industry, which is a step fovwarrl, although very little — four 
groups with some units concentrating on some of these shops. They do not 
know the best methods of work. We must teach them that. 

Now, does this exhibit 4 represent this early stage of organization? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 

Mr. Matthews. Which you have begun to tell us about? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, after these men met at your home on the 
first occasion and you found that the meetings were not successful 
because certain racial and nationalistic questions entered, what did 
you do? 

Mr. O'Shea. I, as I stated, of course, discussed this question with 
Starr, who was the leader of this concentration group, and warned 
him that it Avas dangerous if he continued that practice. He stated 
that he had no power to make any changes but would recommend to 
his superior, Mr. John Santo, and try and have this question rectified. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, who was John Santo? 

Mr. O'Shea. John Santo at this time was to my knowledge section 
organizer of section 15. 

Mr. Matthews. Of what? 

Mr. O'Shea. Of district 2 of the Communiht Party in New York 
City. 

Mr. Matthews. And you had already learned now that Peter Starr 
was a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. 0"Shea. Well. I had no ])roof . but I suspected it and 

Mr. Matthews. AVlien he told you that he had to discuss the matter 
with his superior, was that information 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, indirectly it was certain information. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, did he tell you who his superior was at that 
time ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. As a matter of fact he made an appointment 
with me to see the section organizer and discuss tbe whole question 
of organization. 

Mr. Matthews. You then met John Santo? 

Mr. O'Shea. I then met John Santo. 

Mr. Matthews. And what did you decide as a result of your 
conversation with John Santo? 

Mr. O'Shea. I drew his attention to the fact that I had met this 
Mctrinnity previousl}', who was a member of the Irish Workers' 
Club, and that in my estimation I felt it would be good policy if 
they had selected one or two of those Irish Workers, who were 
pretty well trained in the trade union field, and to give him some 
assistance in handling this Irish group, which consisted mainly in the 
transit field of New York City of 80 ]>ercent Irish, and you needed 
naturally an Irishman to handle an Irishman; so he arranged at 
that time that we would have a meeting and discuss this whole 
question. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7899 

Some few Aveeks later we did hold a nieetino; somewhere around 
Astor ]-*lace in Now York, and I met Santo and he introduced me to 
a man :it tlie time named Hooan. 
Mr. Matthews, lloaan^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Ho<ian. He introduced me to a man by the name 
of Ho<ian. 

Mr. Matthews. What was Hooan's first name? 
Mr. CShea. Austin Hooan. 

]Mr. iNlATTHEWs. Did you have many of these meetings and how^ 
many attended? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. There were only four or five members attended. 
That is four or five from the industry plus Hogan and the other 
groups, Starr and a few of the other fellows. 
Mr. Matthews. "Was Carr there? 
Mr. O'Shea. Xo, he wasn't there at the time. 
Mr. Matthews. Adams? 
Mr. O'Shea. No. 
Mr. Matthews. Santo? 
Mr. O'Shea. Santo, yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Well, then, did j'ou have larger meetings later on ? 
Mr. O'Shea. Oh, yes ; we did, 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Will you please describe them and what took place 
at these larger meetings in the earlier formative stages? 

Mr. O'Shea. Why, just before we pass from that there was one 
point there that it so happened when he introduced me to that chap, 
Hogan — I knew Hogan jjreviously. Well, I would say 5 or 6 years 
before as Dilloughery and not as Hogan. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Will you please spell the name? 
Mr. O'Shea. D-i-1-l-o-u-g-h-e-r-y. 

Mr. IVIatthew^s. You had known him as Austin Dillougherv? 
Mr. O'Shea. Dilloughery. 

Mr. Matthews. And now introduced to you as Hogan? 
Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you learn at the time wh}" he was now using 
the name '"Hogan"? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, from the information I received he held a job 
in the P. W. A. at the time as an engineer in Bronx County and was 
speaking at Columbus Circle for the Irish Workers' Club and doing 
certain work which he felt would have put him on the spot or ex- 
posed him for the left-wing line. 

iSIr. Matthews. Well, I wish to ask you some more about this 
change of names from Dilloughery to Hogan, but before we get to 
that, will you please state what the results of your first meetings 
were where you had the larger group present? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, we continued from that particular meeting 
where I met Hogan, and he, of course, didn't know anything about 
the industry. He was absolutely ignorant of the whole situation. 
He never worked in the field, and it was no easy problem because 
this industry had approximately, as I say, 35,000 members, all in 
ditferent departments, and he didn't know where to start. 
Mr. Matthews. That was Hogan ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. So I had to lay out a campaign that covered 
the various departments, power, motor equipment, transportation, 
where the shops were, the times the men would be employed, the 



7900 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

times of limcli hour, so that the schedule of meetings could be held 
and arrangements could be made for recruiting purposes. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Santo a worker in the transit industry? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. No. Santo was never a worker in the transit in- 
dustry, and at that time, as I stated, to my knowledge was section 
organizer of Section 15. He had previously been in Cleveland editing 
a Hungarian paper, a language paper, as they call it, and I believe 
worked as a hairdresser — barber in his early time. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Santo has any position in 
the Transport Workers' Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. Santo now is holding the position of general 
secretary-treasurer of the Transport Workers' Union International. 

Mr. HoGAN. I show you a photostatic copy of the Daily Worker 
for May 1, 1934, and an article entitled, "'B. M. T. & I. R. T. Subway 
Workers Organize Ncav Union to Fight Against the 1932 Slash in 
Wages," by John Santo. Are you acquainted with this article? 

(Handing document to the witness.) 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I offer this in evidence as O'Shea Exhibit No. 5. 

The Chairman. That was an article by Santo in the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

The Chairman. It will be received. 

(The document referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked "O'Shea 
Exhibit No. 5," and received in evidence.) 

Mr. Matthews. You say Santo was a barber? 

Mr. O'Shea. Barber; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And he is now secretary, general secretary- 
treasurer of the Transport Workers' Union International? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

The Chairman. There is a particular portion of this article that 
I should like to have incorporated in the record without reading it, 
the marked portion. 

(The portion of the document referred to by Mr. Matthews is as 
follows:) 

The Amalgamated Association of Street and Electric Railway Employees 
bureaucracy has very well earned the hatred and contempt of the transport ' 
workers of New York. They betrayed and sold out the strikes of 1920 and 1926 
and laid tlie basis thereby for the establishment of company unions. .Just 
recently they added to their black record of betrayal that of the bus drivers 
of the Fifth Avenue Coach Co. as well as the Bee Lines of Jamaica, Long Island. 
At both instances the National Recovery Act Labor Board was the solution 
offered by Mr. O'Shea, leader of the Amalgamated. No militant tactics, no mass 
picketing, no spreading of the organization and of struggle, but negotiations with 
Mrs. Herrick and trips to Washington. The results? About two dozen best 
TUiion men of the Fifth Avenue (/oach Co. fired, and in Jamaica, the strike of the 
Bee Lines is dying off by inches. 

The road toward better wages and shorter hours in the transit industry lies 
over the dead bod.v of the company unions as well as that of the Amalgamated 
Association through the building up of a new rank and file transport workers' 
union. 

What was the date on which you first met Mr. Santo? 

Mr. O'Shea, Well, it was approximately the spring of 1934. I 
would not know the month. You know, it is so far back. 

Mr. Matthews. And you assured him, did you not, as I understand 
your testimony, that you considered it a dangerous practice to pro- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7901 

ceed as tliey liiul been proceedino- in the work of organizing the 
Transport Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Naturally, it wouhl haA'e been disastrous — wouldn't 
have made any headway. 

Mr. Maithews. Now, this lirst meeting which you had with Santo 
and others, was Arthur Anderson present ? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. Yes; xVrthur Andei-son Avas present at those meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Was James McGovern there? 

]Mr. O'Shea. James McGovern was also present. 

The Chairmax. I Avonder if it would interrupt the course of your 
examination if I asked the witness if he knows what was the pur- 
pose of ]ilacing men in these unions, in the transport union? What 
was the real purj)ose of the Commimist Party in wanting to place 
men in strategic positions throughout the union? 

^h'. O'SiiEA. Naturally, to get control of the industry. 

The Chairman. What did they want to do with the industry after 
they got control? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, anybody knowing the Communist progi'am — • 
they are a revolutionary party, and as a revolutionary party they 
certainly were going to use the industry at a psychological moment 
for a revolution. 

The Chairman. What use could they make of them ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, anybody who had read the history of Russia 
and the revolution in 1917 should know that the strikes — that a strike 
situation usually preceded the final revolutionary set-up. In other 
words, the workers were pulled on the streets and everything was 
chaos. Military forces moved in and they simply combined and 
turned it into a complete revolutionary situation. 

The Chairman. Does that interrupt you? 

Mr. Matthews, No; that is all right. 

The Chairman. Did they discuss that phase of it in any of these 
meetings, the ability to cause a strike and tie up the entire transport 
system of New York? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, of course, the Communists at all times do not 
come out to ordinary workers and say "revolution,'' but indirectly it 
is the duty of every Communist to advocate revolution in this way: 

"When a Communist kno"sVs it all, he is sent out to recruit and he 
must always emphasize the fact that workers must depend purely 
on their economic streng-th. In other words, they can get nothing 
except through strike situations. In other words, that is carrying a 
revolutionary line. 

The Chairman. And j'ou understand that their purpose in formu- 
lating these plans and in seeking to infiltrate these organizations and 
get strategic positions was to be in a position at the psychological 
moment to tie up the entire transport industry in New York. 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. What effect would tliat have if they were able to 
do that? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it w^ould naturally paralyze all trade and com- 
merce. Every other industry would automatically be closed down. 
It would create a general strike situation. 

The Chairman. Did they emphasize the necessity of going into 
key industries? 



7902 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. But the way tliey presented it to the work- 
ers, the non-Comnumists, was they woiikl succeed much better by a 
general strike situation where the bosses would have to bend back- 
ward and give them their conditions. 

The Chairman. That was the explanation to the workers? 

Mr. O'Shea. That was tlie exi^lanation to the ordinary rank and 
file. 

The Chairman. But the real explanation on the inside was tlie 
ability 

Mr. O'Shea. To create a revolutionary situation. 

The Chairman. Was to promote revolution? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; that is right. 

The Chairman. Or do whatever the Party might require at a 
particular moment? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 

The Chairman. Well, I want to ask this: From your knowledge 
and experience and your activities in this Transport Workers' Union, 
are you in a position to say that the Communists can now paralyze 
the transport unions in Ncav York if they so desire? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely; yes; with the closed shops. They have 
got a closed shop today, practically, with all the major groups, even 
Avith the city of New York. They have it arranged when unification 
takes place, their contract will still be in existence; and even though 
the city controls, they can always find time to create a general strike 
situation. 

The Chairman. So you think they now have the power to do it in 
New York? 

Mr. O'Shea. They have the absolute power at the present time. 

The Chairman. If they see fit to exercise that power ? 

Mr. O'Shea. They could use that power. 

The Chairman. The Communists within the union? 

Mr. O'Shea. The Communist leadership with its control in all the 
different sections of the union is so powerful that they could stampede 
the men into a strike, and have it up, before the membership would 
know what is is all about. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. O'Shea, isn't this the same Transport Union 
that threatened to strike in New York just a few weeks ago? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; that is the same union. 

Mr. Thomas. And John L. Lewis came up to New York and had a 
meeting with Mike Quill and LaGuardia ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. The strike was called off because of an agreement 
entered into between John L. Lewis, Mike Quill, and LaGuardia ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

]\Ir. Matthew^s. Now, Mr. O'Shea, you spoke of the revolutionary 
objective of the Communists in their trade-union organization. Have 
you ever noticed any revolutionary activities or plans which seem 
to point to a revolutionary activity in the publications of the Trans- 
port Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir ; as a matter of record they have established 
gun clubs., 

Mr. Matthews. You mean the Transport Union has gun clubs? 
Mr. O'Shea. Actual gun clubs formed in sections by motormen's 
groups, shop groups, and various groups. They meet on ranges on 
different days of the week regularly for target practice. 



UN-AMERICAN niOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7903 

Mr. O'Shea. Do the}^ call these "rifle ranges*'? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mv. Matthews. Do they have real ammunition? 

Mr. O'Shea. Undoubtedly. You don't fire blanks on a rifle range. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the Transport Bulletin. 
Will you identify that [handing paper to the witness] ? 

yiv. O'Shea. Ves. sir. That is tlie official organ of the Transport 
Workers' Union. 

Mr. Ma'it^hews. This is dated December 1939. On page 15 there 
appears the following. Before reading this. I ask it be placed in 
evidence. 

The Chairman. It is so ordered. 

(The bulletin referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked "O'Shea 
Exhibit Xo. 6'', and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. On page 15 there appears the following: 

Rifle ranjjjes. Every member welcome. Rifles supplied. 14Sth Street Shop, 
Mondays. 7 : 15 to 10 p. m., Ranges. Surftice Track, Tuesdays, 7 : 15 to 10 p. m., 
Ranges. Flatbush, Tliursdays, 7 : 15 to 10 p. m., Ranges. 

The rifles are supplied at the ranges according to this chart. Then 
there appears a note at the bottom : 

Purchase your recreation card in the Transport Workers' Union otfices. No 
additional charge for anything except cartridges for rifles. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. O'Shea, what is the purpose of teaching these 
transport union men how to shoot ^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I think it ought to be a foregone conclusion. 
A i-evolutionar}' pai'ty controlling a mass movement would cer- 
tainly train — don't train men for target practice for the pleasure 
of it.' 

Mr. Thomas. So in 3'our mind they had guns for the same reasons 
that these 17 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

Mr. Thomas. Christian Front people had guns? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

The Chair:max. Let us go back. I believe Ave interrupted the 
chain of events from his last meeting showing his connection with 
it. and who he knew it, in and hoAv he knows these facts to be true. 

]\rr. ]\Iatthews. That is correct. Xow, I wish to ask you, Mr. 
O'Shea, if you made an investigation of the change of name from 
Dilloughery to Hogan by x\ustin Hogan? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir; 1 did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you find in the record of tlie Bronx County 
clerk's office that Austin Dilloughery had legally changed his name 
to Austin Hogan ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the approximate date of the order 
directing 

Mr. O'Shea. AVell, I would have to look it up again. 

Mr. Mattiieavs. It was around April 1935, was it? 

Mr. O'Shea. April 1935. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And do you recall that the name to be assumed, 
Austin Hogan. Avas authorized on May 18, 1935? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 



7904 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. After the publication of the order? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that order published in the Bronx Home 
News ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; published in the Bronx Home News. 

Mr. Maithews. Published in the Bronx Home News? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see a copy of an affidavit made by 
Austin Hogan, stating that he was born on* May 26, 1906, in Eunisty- 
mon County, Ireland? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. iind did these records reveal that he Avas natural- 
ized on August 6, 1931 ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the attorney was who hatuUed 
these matters for Mr. Hogan in the change of his name ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Mr. Harry Sacher. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is Mr. Harry Sacher? 

Mr. O'Shea. Mr. Harry Sacher is now general counsel for the 
Transport Workers' Union, C. I. O. He is also counsel, I under- 
stand, for the Musicians Local 802, A. F. of L., and district 9 of the 
Painters Union, all located in New York City — headquarters in New 
York City. 

Mr. Matthews. You have named the locals of three unions? 

Mr. O'Shea. Three unions; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of your own knowledge whether or 
not communists are powerful or entrenched in the leadership of these 
three locals that you have mentioned ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, absolutely, sure. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a matter of general knowledge amongst 
trade unions in New York City ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Among the left-wing groups it is general knowledge, 
but not among the membership as a whole. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photostat for June 1, 1934, issue 
of the Djdly Worker, which has an article entitled: "Irish-American 
Workers Should Be Champions of Negro Liberation, says Murray 
at Farewell." Are you familiar with this article, INIr. O'Shea? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; I am familiar. 

Mr. Matthews. I wish to offer this in evidence. 

The Chairman. It will be received. 

(The photostat referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked '"O'Shea 
Exhibit No. 7," and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you ])]ease state the significance of the 
Communist Party's approach to this Irish question ? 

Mr. O'Shea. As you will note from the Daily Worker, this ])ar- 
ticular meeting was held as a farewell reception to the secretary of 
the Irish-Communist Party, who had come to the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his name? 

Mr. O'Shea. Sean Murray. And his ])urpose was, of course, to 
stimulate amongst the Irish groups in the United States, and more 
or less encourage them to line np with the Communist Party in this 
country, and this farewell reception was given to him at the Irving 
Plaza. 



UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7905 

In this, of course, you will note that Austin Ho<i,sni, who is the 
gentleman we have reference to, was i)resent, and 1 quote: 

Austin Ilogan, active in the Irish Workers' Clubs of this city spoke and sang 
old traditional songs of Irelaml. 

Mr. jNIattheavs. Was Earl Browder one of the speakers on this 
occasion? 

^Ir. O'Shea. Yes. Earl Browder was present at that nieetino-. 
Mr. Matthews. Was Hooan employed on a C. W. A. projects 
Mr. O'SiiEA. Yes. He was enoineer at the time for Bronx County 
Gas c'lc Electric on the project. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it according; to your own personal knowledge 
and common practice for Communists to use aliases? 
Mr. 0"8hea. Naturally. 
Mr. Matthews. Or to change their names ? 
;Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. To conceal their identity for various purposes? 
Mr. O'Shea. Various purposes, yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. ^Matthews, suppose we go back and have his 
further connection. All we have now is the early meetings with the 
concentration group. I thouglit it might be well to show first wdiat 
his connections were with the Transport Union. 

Mr, Matthews. We are now in the period where they are just get- 
ting ready to organize the Transport Workers' Union and we will 
come immediately to jNIr. O'Shea's official connection with the union. 
The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matphews. Where did you first meet Michael Quill? 
Mr. O'Shea. I met him some weeks after we liad the first small 
group meetings, as I stated, when we met Hogan. 
Mr. Matthew^s. Did vou sign Michael Quill up ? 
Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. jNIatthews. For the new Transport Workers' Union? 
Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Iatthew"S. Did you make any arrangements for any meetings? 
Mr. O'Shea. Yes; I called a special meeting of Quill and all fel- 
lows who were really active, which was to be held at Fisher's Restau- 
rant, Forty-second Street and Fourth Avenue in New York City. 
Quill attended that meeting, which was the first meeting, and ap- 
proximately 15 other workers from the industry also attended. 
Mr. Matthews. Were Hogan and Santo there ? 
Mr. O'Shea. I had arranged i)reviously to bring them to this 
meeting but they failed to show up. 

Mr. JSIatthew^s. Now, did you do any business at that meeting 
where Quill attended for the first time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes: I described the organizational method and 
structure and supplied each man with application cards and in- 
structed them, as Santo had previously instructed me, to form 
groups; that each individual going out was to take a lumiber of cards, 
10, 15, or 20, form a group and keep the group by itself and establish 
a secretary and chairman. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Quill form a group? 

]Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir: he formed a group on the west side. Seventh 
Avenue, of Interborough Rapid Transit Subway Divisitm. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, subsequent to meetings of these groups were 
Santo and Hogan in attendance? 



7906 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. Practically all the meetings they attended. 

Mr. Matthews. After 3'ou had several groups formed, did you 
choose a delegates' council or set up a delegates' council ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. That was the structure at the time. It was to 
form groups of sections and from those sections an executive would 
be formed known as the delegates' council, with a representative 
consisting of the secretary and chairman of each section. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did those first delegates' council meet? 

Mr, O'Shea. AVell, we met down on the East Side of New York 
City. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the persons who attended? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes ; Santo attended ; a conductor from the B. M. T. 
named William Suidema; a maintenance man from the lighting 
department of the Interborough Rapid Transit Co. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his name? 

My. O'Shea. James McGovern. Two other workers from the 
painting department. One was J. Sponza and the other worker 
was Holstrum. 

Mr. JNIatthews. Herbert? 

Mr. O'Shea, Herbert Holstrum, 

]\Ir, Matthews. Who acted as the chairman of that delegates' 
council ? 

Mr, O'Shea, John Santo. 

Mr, Matthews. What was the membership of the union at this 
time ? 

Mr, O'Shea, Well, figures given to me by Santo was approxi- 
mately 100 — about 100 men. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what year was this, to keep the story 
straight? 

Mr. O'Shea. That was around — I would say around April of 
1934 — on or about April. I may be wrong in the month but I know 
it was within that time. 

Mr, Matthews, Did you begin to publish any literature — leaflets, 
bulletins, or anything of that kind at this time ? 

]\Ir, O'Shea, Well, yes; we naturally discussed it at this meeting. 
We had to explain the situation in the industry and the necessity 
of putting out stuff, so he said: "Yes; we will take care of that; we 
will publish a bulletin," 

Mr, Matthews, Now, what kind of a bulletin did j-ou get out at 
this time? 

iVIr. O'Shea, Oh, it was just one of those six by four two-page 
bulletins. 

Mr, Matthews. Who was the editor of the bulletin ? 

Mr. O'Shea. A man by the name of Forge, 

Mr, Matthews. Is his first name Maurice ? 

Mr. O'Shea, Maurice Forge; yes, 

INIr, Matthews, M-a-u-r-i-c-e? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Maithews, Do you know now whether he is the editor of the 
Transport Workers' Bulletin? 

Mr, O'Shea, Yes, sir. He is now editor of the Transport Workers' 
Bulletin, 

Mr, Matthews. Does it so appear in the Transport Workers' 
Bulletin ? 



UN-AMERICAX I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7907 

Mr. O'Shea, Yes, sir; liis name appears in the bulletin as the 
editor. 

Mr. MArrHKWs. Did Force work in the industry? 

Mr. O'SiiKA. No; For^-e at that time was a member of the con- 
centration unit at this shop in Harlem, which we discussed in the 
early part of the evidence. He was one of the seven men selected by 
Tass, who was the section oro-anizer, to concentrate for the work 
and from this unit he still continued on ancl continued in a func- 
tionary capacity as an editor. 

Mr. Matthkws. Do you know what section of the Communist 
l*arty he belonoed to? 

Mr. O'Shea, Section 4. That was the Harlem section, New York 
City. 

Mr. IMatthews. Do you know any further enlightening facts about 
Forge's connection or background? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, Forge, from what I understood, he was what 
we used to call a "placard artist." He used to do some painting from 
time to time on dresses, I believe, and he had a job — the last job he 
had was a bus boy in some club on Park Avenue. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Matthews, right at that point I would like to 
know what proof the witness has that this man you are referring to is 
a member of the Comnuniist Party. Why does he think he is a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Matthews. That is, Maurice Forge? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 

Mr. IMatthews. Can you answer that, Mr. O'Shea ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I was going to come to that question later on. 
You see when we were going into the point of the structure of the 
Communist Party within the trade-unions I would have dealt with 
this particular question. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I show you, Mr. O'Shea, a copy of the Trans- 
port Workers' Bulletin of July 1934 [handine; paper to the witness!. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

]VIr. Matthews. Do you identify that ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir ; that is one of our first bulletins. 

Mr. Mati^heavs. I ask that this be made a part of the record. 

The Chairman. It is so ordered. 

(The document referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked "O'Shea 
Exhibit No. 8," and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state how this bulletin was 
financed? AVho paid for its publication? 

INIr. O'Shea. The Communist Party. 

]Mr. Matthews. How do you know the Communist Party paid for 
its ])ublication ^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Certainly the union didn't pay for it, because the 
union didn't have any money — wasn't in existence, as a matter of fact. 

Mr. Ma'i-fhews. AVas 80 East Eleventh Street the address of the 
Transjiort Workers' Bulletin at that time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; they had a room — we had a room, of course. 
When the thing began to start with the one hundred or so men, we 
had a room at 80 East Eleventh Street. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know, Mr. O'Shea, where this Transport 
Workers' Bulletin was actually printed — what typographical union 
was connected with its printing? 



7908 un-ai\ip:rican propaganda activities 

Mr. O'Shea. Wei], I have some material here which is 

Mr. Matthews. What is the union label on that? 

Mr. O'Shea. Tlie number is 209. It is the union-label number, 
and I have some exliibits here which I will present to the committee — 
some closer connection. Here is the "Soviet-Finnish Peace — A Blow 
to the War Monoers." This also has union label No. 209. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask were they both printed at the same place ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Both of those pamphlets printed at the same place? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. They have the same label, No. 209. That 
is a trade number. 

Mr. Matthews. And here is a pami^hlet entitled "Captured by 
Franco," and published by the Friends of the Abraham Lincoln 
Brif^ade. Is that also 

Mr. O'Shea. Also 209. 

Mr. Matthews. Bears union label 209? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And here is a leaflet issued by the women's com- 
mittee of the New York State Communist Partv. Does that also 
bear the label 209 ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes ; 209. 

Mr. Matthews. And an election campai<rn leaflet entitled "The 
People Versus Wall Street," published by the Communist Party and 
also has label 209 ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. If I have not offered exhibits 9, 10, 11, and this 
one as 12, 1 wish to do so. 

The Chairman. They are admitted. 

(The exhibits referred to by Mr. Matthews were marked "O'Shea 
Exhibits Nos. 9, 10. 11, and 12," and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, did you make any inquiries of the Allied 
Printing Trades Council as to the identity of union label 209 ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matihews. I will show you a letter 

Mr. O'Shea. That is the letter; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify this letter ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

Mr. MAT-rHEws. Dated June 13, 1939? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The letter is from the Allied Printing Trades 
Council of Greater New York and is signed by Vincent J. Ferris. 

I wish to offer this in evidence. 

The Chairmax. It will be admitted. 

(The letter referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked "O'Shea 
Exhibit No. 13," and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. The letter states as follows: 

Complying with the request contained in your letter of June 4, I hereby 
impart to you the following inform.ation : 

The Prompt Press, now located at 11.3 Fourth Avenue has been the lessee 
of label 209 since 103.3. The Printing Trades Bluebook gives the list of officers 
for 1039 as follows: 

Frank Thistleton, president ; Boris Cohen, secretary-treasurer and buyer. 

Do you know what connection the Prompt Press has with the Com- 
munist Party or any of its organizations? 



I'X-AMKKTC'AX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7909 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. You will Hud some documents here which will, 
I am sure, indicate that. 

Mr. MAniiEws. I show you a copy of the New York Post for Au- 
gust b, 1931), with an article entitled: ''Hathaway Uses Capitalist 
Dodcre." 

In this story it is stated that the Prom[)t Press, due to the judg- 
ment owed it hy the Daily Worker, has become the receiver for the 
Dailv Worker, is that correct^ 

Mi-. O^Shea. That is right. 

]Mr. Matthews. Do yon know if that is the legal situation of the 
Pi'ompt Press and Daily Woi'ker in New York? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now, then, you iniderstand from this and other 
information which was given to you, that the Communist Party paid 
for tlie publication of the lirst issues of the Transport AYorkers' Bul- 
letin > 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

]Mr. Casey. Do I undeistand. ]Mr. Matthews, tlmt the Prompt Press 
became receiver thi-ougli judicial proceedings in court? 

^Ir. Maithews. Is that right ? 

Mr. O'Shea. As far as I understand, that is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. It is so stated in the article and as a result of an 
investigation. I checked that. 

Now. what was your hrst position, Mr. O'Shea, in the Transport 
Workers' Union ? 

yiv. O'Shea. Piesideiit. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you the tirst president of the Transport 
Workers' Union { 

Ml'. O'Shea. Yes, sir; I was the first president of the Transport 
Workers" I'nion. 

Mr. Matihews. And by whom were j^oti elected president of the 
Transport Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. I wasn't elected president. I was appointed by Santo, 
who was the district representative of the party. 

Mr. Ma'ttiieavs. You were appointed president of the Transport 
Workers" Union bv Santo? 

:Mr. O'Shea. Ye"^s. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio wa?* district organizer of the Communist 
Party in New York? 

yir. O'Shea. Distiict representative in the transit field? 

Mr. Ma'i-thews. Yes, district representative in the transit field? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir. 

^Ir. Maithews. For the Comnuinist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. For the Connnunist Party; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any doctimentary evidence of your 
presidency of the Trans))ort Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 1 think you will find it in the official organ, 
the bulletin. 

]Mr. Matthews. I sliow you a co])y of the Ti-ansport Workers' Bul- 
letin for February 19;i5, which has a picture of yourself, is that 
correct ? 

(Handintr paper to the witness.) 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir. 



7910 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. And another copy of the Transport Workers' Bul- 
letin for July 1935. Do you identify these as copies of the publica- 
tion of your union? 

Mr. d'SiiEA. Yes. 

I\Ir. Matthews. I oifer them in evidence. 

The Chairman. They may be received. 

(The Transport Workers' Bulletin dated February 1935 was marked 
"O'Shea Exhibit No. 15"; the Transport Workers' Bulletin dated 
July 1935 was marked "O'Shea No. 14," and made a part of the rex?ord.) 

Mr. Matthews. On page 1 of the Transport Workers' Bulletin for 
July 1935, there appears the following statement besides a photo- 
graph. Is that a photograph of yourself, Mr. O'Shea ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

A few minutes before noon ou Friday, .Tune 21st. Tom O'Sliea, figliting presi- 
dent of tlie Transport Worlcers' Union accompanied liy two otlier union organ- 
izers, arrived at tlie 148th Street sliop in preparation for tlie weelvly shop-gate 
meeting — 

and so forth. 

I show you a Transport ^Yorkers' Union membership book. 
Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Shea, do vou identifv that? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Does your signature appear as president of the 
Transport Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Ma^ftheavs. And the signature of Austin Hogan as secretary? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the Transport Workers' Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And this book was dated August 28, 1934? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. May we have this in evidence as O'Shea's exhibit 
16? 

The Chairman. It is admitted. 

(The membership book referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked 
"O'Shea's exhibit No. 16" and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. How long did you retain the position as president 
of the Transport Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Until December 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. You held the position until December 1935? 

Mr. O'Shea. Held the position until December 1935; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What were your instructions at that time with 
reference to the office of president? 

Mr. O'Shea. At that time I was instructed by Santo to resign, or 
not to oppose the future president at the election. 

Mr. Matthews. And did you follow those instructions? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

Mr. Matthews. And who was elected president of the Transport 
Workers' Union to succeed you? 

Mr. O'Shea. Quill was elected unopposed. 

Mr. Matthews. Michael Quill? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7911 

Mr. Mattiikws. And were you instructed to do that by Santo? 

Mr. O'SiiKA. Yes, sir; by John Santo. 

Ml-. Matthews. Of the Connnunist Party? 

Ml". O'SiiF.A. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. MA-raiiKws. AVas that in 1936? 

Mr. O'Shea. No : at the end of November 1935. The election took 
place at the end of November 1935 and the officers were instaried 
in January 1930. 

]\Ir. MATriiEws. Now, were you ever approached to join the Com- 
munist Party, JNIr. O'Shea ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; I was approached to join the Communist 
Party. 

]Mr. Mattheavs. Where was that and when? 

Mr. O'Shea. I was asked to attend around 1934 at a house in 
Astoria, Lono; Island. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was present at that meetino-? 

Mr. O'Shea. John Santo, Austin Hogan, and a chap by the name 
of James Garrison, who actually owned the apartment, a chap by 
the name of Arthur Anderson, a chap by the name of James Mc- 
Govern. and myself. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you join the Communist Party at that time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; I joined the party at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. This was in or around 1934? 

Mr. O'Shea. May 1934; ai)proximately that time. 

Mr. Matthews. So that when yon relinquished the presidency of 
the Transport Workers' Union in December of 1935 you were a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; I was a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthew^s. And you did, therefore, feel compelled to accept 
the instructions of the Communist Party with reference to your posi- 
tion in this union ^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Casey. You mean when he was president of the Transport 
Workers' Union he joined the Communist Party? 

jNIr. JMatthews. No. He had been a member of the Communist 
Party since May 1934. 

Mr. Casey. Did he occupy a position then in the union? 

Mr. Matthews. He occupied the position of president of the Trans- 
port Workers' Union from June 1934 to November 1935 — about 18 
months. 

One month before you became president of the union you joined 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Approximately that time; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did any of the other persons present at that meet- 
ing in Astoria join the Conmiunist Party at the same time? 

Mr, O'Shea. Yes. McGovern, Garrison, and Anderson. Ander- 
son, as a matter of fact, rejoined the party. 

Mr. Mattheavs. So you were present then at a meeting of the Com- 
munist Party and therefore knew from first-hand knoAvledge that 
these individuals became members? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Santo, Starr, Hogan, Garrison, Anderson, and Mc- 
GoA-ern; is that correct? 

94931— 40— vol. 13 16 



7912 UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, from that time on did you attend regularly 
meetings of the party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. " The party then had scheduled regular what was 
known as "unit meetings." Established what was known as a "unit." 

Mr. Matthews. Where were those meetings held? 

Mr. O'Shea. We held quite a number of them at the Artist's Hall. 
T tliink it is around Twenty-third Street in New York City. We 
had some in the Metal Workers' Union, and later in the headquarters 
of the Transport Workers' Union. 

Mr. Casey. Before you go into that, Mr. Matthews, I am very 
curious to know liow it happened that a good Corkman named O'Shea 
joined the Communist Party. 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it so "liappened. conditions in the industry at 
that time were anything but hot. I worked as a maintenance man. 
My hours of work wasn't too bad. I had 48 hours a week — 44. But 
I saw men working 84 hours a week. I was up in a booth, and after 
all a man is entitled to at least half -decent living conditions. I saw- 
that tliere was absolutely no justice as far as the workingmen in the 
industry were concerned and I felt at the time it was absolutely nec- 
essary to have a union. 

Now. I didn't see any activity on the part of the American Fed- 
eration of Labor: and I have previously testified I made contact 
through this concentration group and they assured me they were in- 
terested in building a union. Now, the question was, was I going 
along with them? To my belief they were giving satisfaction. They 
were willing to spend money — pay for a bulletin, pay for lawyers, 
and give us as much protection as could be given. So I felt that 
really these people are interested in the working class. They were 
seriously interested in the working class, so I said to myself, "AVell, 
after all if these people are willing to come in here and make a 
Utojiia and show nationally and internationally they are willing 
to do the same thing." Then naturally I read their material — - 
Daily Worker pamphlets, bulletins, and various things, and from 
the contents of the material I believed that they were seriously in- 
teiested in alleviating a lot of suffering. 

This unemployment question and many other things were coming 
up from day to day and for that reason I felt I would join, so I did 
join. 

Mr. Mason. INIay I ask a question. FolloAving that, hoAvever, your 
eyes were opened to the fact that they were not particularly inter- 
ested in the welfare of the woi'kingman but had their political no- 
tions always to the fore and were using the working man as an excuse 
to get their political and revolutionary activities over, is that right? 

Mr. O'Shea. Sure. I realized that when I held that position as 
president, that I was simply nothing else but a Charlie McCarthy 
and it was a question not to have 3'our own ideas on any question that 
arose, but simply do what you were told, right or wrong. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr, Matthews. Now, Mr. O'Sliea, you spoke of meeting with your 
unit of the Communist Party in various places in New York. T 
would like to ask you if Michael Quill was a member of the same 
unit of the Communist Party that you wei'e ? 



rX-A.MKRlCAX I'KOl'AllANDA ACTIVITIKS 7913 

Mr. O'Shea. Michael Quill was a member of the same unit of the 
Coiiiinunist I'aitv. 

Mr. Mathikws. Was that unit a part of section 28 ot the C oni- 
munist Party of New York^ 

Mr. OVSiiisA. J^ection 28. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was the secretary of your unit? 

]Mr. O'Shea. Eddie Maiiuire was secretary. 

Mr. Matihews. Did Quill hold any position in your unit? 

Mr. O'SnEA. Yes. 

Mr. jNIattheavs. In the Connnunist Party? 

Mr. O'^hea. Yes. QiuU was what was known as ''literature 
agent." . . 

]\rr. Matthews. Did you hold any position? 

Mr. O'Shea. Unit organizer. 

Mr. Mai THEWS. Do you recall the names of the other members 

of the unit? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. Austin Hogan. John Santo, Andei-son. a 
chap bv the name of McGovern from the industry, a chap by the 
name of Curran. and a chap by the name of Flemming, a John 
Murphy. A colored chap named King, who was a i)orter in the 
industry; a cha]) named Gunsen and Peter Starr. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a man named Garrison? 

Mv. O'Shea. James Garrison; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. These were in addition to yourself and Michael 

Quill ? 

:Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. We were functionaries of the unit. 

jMr. Matthews. And Ed Maguire? 

ISIr. O'Shea. Ed Maguire; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you eyer haye any prominent Communists at- 
tend your meetings? 

MiC O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state who they w-ere? 

jSIr, O'Shea. Rose WoVtis and George Siskind. 

Mr. MATTHEAys. Is that spelled W-o-r-t-i-s and S-i-s-k-i-n-d ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. A^Hiy did George Siskind and Rose AVortis attend 
your meetings — they were unit meetings? 

^Ir. O'Shea. Yes. Our unit meetings were not long in existence 
at the time and a question arose as to the advisability of entering 
the company-union elections Avhich were about to take place at the 
time, nominate candidates on the company-union slate and, if pos- 
sible, get control of the company union from the inside. 

At this particular unit meeting Quill could not see that policy and 
he went up in arms. He said it was a form of collaboration with 
the company; that he could not see that such a thing was possible. 

Santo was unable at the time, at this meeting, to conyince Quill, 
so he ari-anged for the following unit meeting to bring in somebody 
Avho would be able to explain the situation. 

Mr. Maithews. You say Quill o):)posed entering 

]\rr. O'Shea. The company union. 

Mr. Matthews. In a Trojan Horse fashion? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Because he said it was a form "of collaboration 
with the bosses"? 



7914 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know ^Ylletllel■ or not that that attitude 
expressed by Quill at th'at time has been denounced by the Communist 
Party as "left-wing infantilism"? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Lenin write a book on that subject? 

Mr. 0\Shea. That is true. 

Mr. Matthews. And is it the experience of the partv that new 
recruits to the party sometimes fail to understand the importance 
of the Trojan Horse tactics? 

Mr. O'Shea. True. 

Mr. Matthews. On the ground that they are collaborating with 
reactionaries and bosses and what not ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is true. 

Mr. Matthews. And that was Quill's position at this time? 

Mr. O'Shea. That was Quill's position at that time. 

Mr. Matthews. And Siskind and Wortis were sent into your unit 
to discuss that subject with A'our unit? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthew^s. And did they do more than discuss it with your 
unit? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, they went into the whole question of the party. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Did they lay down the party line for you? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely". They said : ''You understand the party's 
position. You have got to get inside and you have got to smash it 
down from the inside. It is the only way it can and must be done." 

Mr. Matthews. Did Quill yield after the instructions were laid 
down ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes ; he did yield. 

Mr. Matthews. What happened, do you know, to Siskind shortly 
after this meeting at your unit ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, we had some later meetings with Siskind after 
that, you see, but I missed him from around the district. I was a 
frequent visitor at the headquarter-; of the district and 

]SIr. Matthews. Of the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Of the Communist Party headquarters and naturally 
any question we had we would go and interview them on those things, 
and I was informed that he was gone — that he had gone to Kussia. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, when Siskind was attending your meetings, 
do you know whether or not he was designated as the ''agit prop" \ 

Mr. O'Shea. He was. 

Mr. Matthews. Which I believe now is called "the educational 
director" ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir ; the same thing. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have a leading fraction formed at this 
time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. It is the practice with the Communist Party 
when they establish units within a given industry to also establish 
an executive which is known as a "fraction." 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what is the "leading fraction"? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is — a leading fraction, it usually consists of 
select men. They are not elected. But they are selected by the func- 
tionaries who are the full-time organizers of the party in the in- 
dustry, who select maybe a half a dozen or a dozen men and place 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7915 

them in positions and tlioy direct the activities or, in other words, 
carry the party line thron<>h the industry. 

Mr. ]\lA'n iieHvs. Isn't their responsibility to politicalize the union? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. Yes, sir; and responsible for recruiting. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Do you remember the names of the members of the 
leadinjr fraction in the transit industry at this time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. Austin Ilooan, Quill, and MacMahon. 

Mr. Matthews. Will 3'ou spell that ? 

Mr. 0"Shea. M-a-c-M-a-h-o-n. Forge, who was the editor of this 
bulletin. 

Mr. Maithews. He is the man we asked about before? 

Mr. O'Shea. He is the gentleman. Austin Hogan, James Garrison, 
Murphy — I mentioned Quill, did I? 

Mr, Matthews. Suidema? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Santo a member of the fraction? 

Mr, O'Shea. Santo was a member of the fraction. 

Mr, Matthews. Were you a member of the fraction ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, yes; sure. 

Mr. Mattpiews. What about a man named Victor Blosw^ick? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir ; Victor Bloswick. One Hundred and Forty- 
eighth Street. He was also a member. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you find that any friction or factionalism 
developed in your fraction? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What was that due to? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, during the course of organization Quill and I 
from time to time discussed this party thing, about the organization. 
We felt that they were not organizing properly and we drew this 
question to their attention from time to time, but Ave got no satis- 
faction. It seemed to be — well, you just do as you are told, so we 
were opposed to the "bureaucracy," as we termed it, at the time — 
the dictatorial tactics of Santo and Hogan, with the result it got 
so hot that we were called to a special meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was that meeting held? 

Mr. .0"Shea. It was held in the home of Israel Amter. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Do j^ou know who Israel Amter is? 

Mr. O'Shea. He is State chairman of the Communist Party for 
the New York district. 

Mr. Matthews. And where was his home at that time? 

Mr. O'Shea. On the East Side around — I couldn't say — around 
Fourth Street, but I would say on the East Side off of Third Avenue. 

yiv. Matthews. This was a meeting of your leading fraction in 
the transit industry at the home of Israel xVmter^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. For the purpose of dealing with the conflict that 
arose in the leading fraction? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. AVere any charges brought against any particular 
individuals at the meeting at Israel Amter's home? 

Mr. O'Shea. It is usually discussed with the leaders of the dis- 
trict 

Mr. JNIatthews. Were any charges brought? 

Mr. O'Shea. At this meeting? 



7916 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. O'Shea. Oil, yes. Anderson, who was one of our group from 
the industry, was charged at tlie meeting with being a stoolpigeon. 

Mr. Casey. For whom? 

Mr, O'Shea. Anderson. 

Mr. Casey. For whom? 

Mr. O'Shea. For the corporation. And to my knowledge there 
was no evidence presented to convince me that he was. 

Mr. Mati'hews. Now, who were some of tlie other persons present 
beside Amter and the members of your leading fraction on this 
occasion ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Roy Hudson, a member of the central committee of 
the Communist Party wlio was responsible for this communistic 
activit}^ in tlie maritime union: William Dunn, a member of the 
central committee and now district organizer in Butte, Mont.; James 
Ford, of Harlem, also a member of the central committee and now a 
member of the national committee of the Communist Party; and 
Rose Wortis, George Siskind, and Hogan, Santo, P'orge, Quill, Gar- 
rison, Anderson, and myself. 

Mr. Matthews. Were Santo and Hogan reprimanded in any way 
at this meeting? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. Of course, at the meeting we brought up and 
}) resented our picture. We charged them with high-handed bureauc- 
racy. 

Mr. Matthews. AYere they found guilty of bureaucracy? 

Mr. O'Shea. They wei-e found guilty — they found them guilty at 
tlie time to satisfy us of being bureaucratic — they were found guilty. 

Mr. Thomas. It is not clear to me what they were found guilty of? 

Mr. O'Shea. Bureaucrac}'. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Avhat happened after this meeting, imme- 
diately after? 

Mr. O'Shea. Innnediately after the meeting, Santo, who naturally 
was — who was the district representative in our union — invited me 
to his home for dinner and during the meal he was trying to impress 
me with the fact that Anderson was a stooge. 

The Chairman. Who was that? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. That this Anderson, who was charged at the meet- 
ing 

The Chairman. Who was trying to impress you ? 

Mr. O'Shea. John Santo. I knew Anderson for years in the in- 
dustry and I knew his activities in the industry and I knew there 
was some other motive for attacking Anderson. As I got more 
"developed," as they say in the Communist Party, I saw they wanted 
to isolate him because he was the brains of our group. 

]Mr. Matthews. Have you observed, in your experience inside of 
the Communist Party, members who show too much independence or 
any independence or deviate from the party line are dealt with 
severely ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Sure, and immediately isolated. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it customary to charge them with being stooges ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is the general practice. Naturally, it is some- 
thing that they Avant to stick particularly among the membership. 
Using any other charge would not hold water with the men, but 



UX-AMKRICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7917 

"stool pigeon." Avhile it deals specifically with the men's economic con- 
dition, antl for that j)articular reason they use that. 

Mr. Casey. Just what does the term "isolate" mean? 

Mr. O'SiiFA. AVell, it so ha]>peued, as I shoAved at the time, there 
Avere four of us in a <rroup. It was felt that if they could have 
influenced both Quill, (larrison, and me, Ave Avould have taken up 
atr;iinst Anderson and belieA-ed their statements and put him by him- 
self. In other Avords, he AA"ould lose his influence in the industry. 

Mr. MATrnKAVs. Xoaa-, AAhat ha])pened after that meetin<;? 

Mr. O'Shea. AVell. after that meetiu<>- there AAas nothin<»; to the 
l)arty's satisfaction, so a second meeting AA^as called and at this second 
meeting they introduced a resolution and they brought in approxi- 
mately 100 members from the industry — part}' members — and the 
same (|uestion came up again, and it Avasn't settled. I still main- 
tained that there aa'rs some form of a frame-up, something being 
done — something that I could not see. There AA^as no evidence sub- 
mitted to me to ])ro\e this man Avas connected in any AAay AA'ith the 
cor])oration. 

After this ]iarticular meeting the Communist Party sent to Boston 
for one of their members, actiA'e members, a man by the name of 
P. J. ^McCarthy, Avho happened to be an Irishman and also was a 
charter member of the Communist Party, as I later learned. 

The purpose Avas to use McCarthy to neutralize this opposition 
that had deA'eloped. and that AA'as the opposition of Quill, Anderson, 
and the other fellows against Santo and Hogan. They felt being- 
Irish, he AAOuld be able to do that. 

So Avhen McCarthy did come he Avas assigned as an organizer: 
])laced on the fraction and assigned as a union organizer for the 
Biooklyn-Manhattan diA'ision. 

Mr. ]Mattheavs. Had McCarthy cA'er had any experience in the 
transit field? 

Mr. OShra. No. He had trade-union experience. He was in 
many unions, you see, and he kneAV something about trade-unionism — 
more than Santo or Hogan. 

Mr. Mattheaa'S. He AA'as made an organizer immediately after 
being brought from Boston? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. The election I think took place 3 or 4 
months later, and he AAas put on the slate as a business agent. We 
had then gone into the International Association of Machinists and 
he was made a business agent. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Xoav, at that time you Avere still president of the 
II n ion? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir: I AA-as still president. 

Mr. Mattheavs. AVlio Avas the vice president of tlie union at this 
time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Quill Avas vice president of the union at that time. 

Mr. IVIattheav. Did any other meetings take place Avith reference 
to this issue of factionalism? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Mattheavs. Do you recall any meetings that dealt Avith this 
question of factionalism subsequent to the one 

Mr. O'Shea. The one in Amter's home and the one folloAving that 
on the East Side Avhere the group of transit Avorkers were brought 



7918 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

in. It was at this meeting that McCarthy was introduced to the 
industry. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I show j^ou a copy of the Transport Work- 
ers' Bulletin for March 1, 1936. Can you identify that ? (Handing- 
paper to the witness.) 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I offer this Transport Workers' Bulletin for March 
1, 1936, in evidence. 

The Chairman. It is received. 

(The Transport Workers' Bulletin referred to by Mr. Matthews 
was marked "O'Shea Exhibit No. 17" and made a part of the 
record.) 

Mr. Matthews. The list of officers includes the name of P. J. 
McCarthy as one of the business agents, is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. That is the man. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And John Santo was another? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And Thomas H. O'Shea a third ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; I was the third. 

Mr. Matthews. You were the three business agents of the union 
at that time ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthew's. Will you please explain how it was McCarthy 
was able to get elected, to a ])osition in the union after so short a 
time in the industry in New York ? 

Mr, O'Shea. Well, as you know in communistic-controlled unions 
there is no such thing as democracy. The whole thing is planned 
inside by the fraction, and the unit members are placed on the 
floor to nominate their candidates, and the whole slate was put in 
a block — the whole party slate, with a few rank and filers thrown in 
as window dressing, and presented to the membership, and then if 
there were any nominations they would be individual and would 
not make the grade. Then, the official organ woidd play the thing 
up for a month or two in advance maybe. The issues would carry 
the pictures and records of the men, and the opposition was smothered 
down and had no chance at all. 

Mr. Thomas, In other w^ords, the Communist Party dominated 
the elections in the Transit Workers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. 

Mr. Matthews. At this time, was the Transport Workers' Union 
affiliated with the American Federation of Labor ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes ; we were associated with the American Federation 
of Labor. 

Mr. Matthews. The Transport Workers' Union was ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What was its first affiliation? 

Mr. O'Shea. Its first affiliation was with the Trade Union Unity 
Council. That was when we were an independent union prior going 
into the American Federation of Labor. 

Mr. JSIattheavs. Will you please explain briefly what the Trade 
Union Unity Council was? 

Mr. O'Shea. It is an organization of all Communist-controlled 
unions, similar to what the central trades of the A. F. of L. had. It 



UX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7919 

Avap more ov less a cential body (tf all afiiliated Cominuiiist-rontrolled 
unions. 

Mr. Matfhews. That is, for the city of Xe^y York? 

Mv. O'SiiEA. City of New York. That was what was known as the 
Trade Union Unity Conncil. Then there was the Trade Union Unity 
Leaijne. which was alliliated with all the international "red'' nnions. 

Mr. Maitiiews. Was that the Red International Labor Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir; the Red International Labor Union. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know of your own experience that the 
Trade L^nion Unity Council and the Trade Union Unity League were 
completely dominated bv the Communist Party? 

Mr. ()\Shea. Absolutely. 

Mr. jNLvithews. AA'as there any question about that in anybody's 
mind who knew the inside workings of the organization? 

Mr, O'Shea. No question about that; no question about that. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of a portion of the Daily Worker 
for June 11, 1934, an article entitled, "Trade Unions in Actions to 
Aid Thalmann — Mass T. U. U. C. Delegation to Visit Nazi Consul in 
New York Tomorrow." Have you seen this copy of the Daily 
Worker? [Handing paper to the witness.] 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I shall read a paragraph from this article, as 
follows : 

A delegation has been elected by the T. U. U. C. to present this demand to the 
German consulate. The delegation consists of the following workers : G. Harri- 
son, Rose Kuutsch, M. Perlow, J. Sirota, J. Hurling, Ross, William Bliss, .J. Santo. 

Is that the Santo? 

Mr. O'Shea. Same John Santo, yes, who is general secretary. 

Mr. Matthews (continuing) : 

Harry Cantor, Charlotte Todes, Fannie Golos, Sam Nesin. 

Who were the executives or leaders of the Trade Union Unitv 
Council ni New York at that time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Overgaard was the secretary and Sam Nesin and Rose 
Wortis. 

Mr. Matthews. And who were the other two ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Rose Wortis and Sam Nesin. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were the headquarters of the Trade Union 
Unity Council? 

Mr. O'Shea. 80 East Eleventh Street. 

Mr. IMaithews. Was that the same building where the Transport 
Workers' Union headquarters were? 

Mr. O'Shea. Same Iniilding but different floor. 

Mr. Matthews. I have a copy of the Daily Worker for May 1, 
1934, with an article: Transit Workers Are Seething Against Com- 
Y>a.uy Unions, Low Wages. Have you ever seen this article? [Hand- 
ing pa])er to witness.] 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; I have seen this article. 

Mr. Matthews. This article describes the steps taken by the Trade 
Union Unity Council? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. IVIatthews. To prepare for the next taxi strike ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 



7920 ON-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. The Transport Workers' Union at this time was 
a member of the Trade Union Unity Council ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, this is an article entitled: "By a Secretary 
of the Transport Workers' Union." And this page which concludes 
the article in an editor's note is signed by Andrew Overgaard, secre- 
tary. Trade Union Unity Council, is that correct? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir.*^ 

Mr. Matthews. Xow, will you please state briefly, Mr. O'Shea, how 
the affiliation with the Trade Union Unity League was abandoned? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Matthews. The affiliation of the Transport Workers' Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, after the decisions of the Seventh World Con- 
gress of the Communist International, orders were relayed to our 
fraction that the new policy of the party was the united-front policy. 
In other words, the Trojan Horse ]iolicy. We were ordered to make 
preparations and get inside of the American Federation of Labor. 

The Chairman. What date was that? 

Mr. Matthews. August 1935. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; August 1935, on or about August 5, 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. The Seventh World Congress was held in Moscow 
in 1935? 

Mr. O'Shea. And this was relayed to be put into effect in the 
LTnitecl States. 

Mr. Matthews. And you were told then to get into the American 
Federation of Labor ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. "Get in it any way you possibly can do it, but 
just get into any branch." 

Mr. Matthews. And was the Trade Union Lenity League entirely 
abandoned at that time by the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, they still held together until such time as 
each group were able to get inside the various national and inter- 
national unions of the American Federation of Labor. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the Transport Workers Union have an open, 
publicly known affiliation with the Trade Union Unity League at 
this time? 

Mr. O'Shea. No. It was kept completely in the dark. Any dem- 
onstration by the T. U. U. C. — we kept clear of it, because they felt 
at the time because of the group of Irish there that it would be 
dangerous for them — it would have linked them with the party. In 
other words, put them on the spot. 

Mr. Matthrws. The sentiment among the Transport Workers Un- 
ion was such they would not have looked kindly on an affiliation with 
a Communist-controlled labor federation? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you first make contact with the Amer- 
ican Federation of Labor wnth a view to getting inside of the American 
Federation of Labor? 

Mr. O'Shea. As I stated, it was around August. We made an 
effort. We contacted a representative of the Amalgamated Associa- 
tion of Street, Electric Railway, and Motor Coach Employees of 
America, an A. F. of L. affiliate in New York City. And at a con- 
ference with him — his name was P. O'SJiea, the same as myself, and 
he arranged that a delegation of our organization should go to Detroit 



rX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7921 

iiiul meet the executive board of the Anialganiated, which was then 
in session prepaiin^j; for their convention. 

Mr. Matthews. AVas such a delectation selected? 

Afr. O'SiiEA. Yes. sir. The delegation was selected. 

Mr. Matthews. Of whom was it comj)osed? 

]Mr. O'Shea. Hogan, Quill, Santo, and I. 

^Ir. Mattheavs. Give their first names. 

Mv. O'Shea. This is the Santo that is now general secretary of the 
Transport Workers Union. 

Mr. Matthews. And Hogan who is vice president? 

Mr. O'Shea. Hogan is president of the New York local of the 
C. I. O., and he is also vice president of the State body of the C. I. O. 
l)ody in the State of Xew York. 

Mr. Matthews. And Quill who is president of it. 

Mr. O'Shea. President of the Transport Workers Union. 

Mr. JSIatthews. Did yon go to Detroit ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir : we went to Detroit. 

Mv. Matthews. How did you travel? 

Mr. O'Shea. By automobile. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Who paid the expenses of the trip to Detroit ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, the question at the time — we had, as a matter of 
fact — we never seemed to have any money. It always seemed to go 
out in leaflets and stnff, but this trip involved quite some money — I 
believe it was something around three-hundred or three-hundred-and- 
fifty-odd dollars for the trip for a few days. We discussed this 
question vrith our fraction and tried to dig up dough, but it was im- 
possible. We had already milked a lot of the members in tlie union 
for loans and things, so it was decided we would go to Amter, the 
State chairman of the Communist Party, and get cash. 

We had a conference with Amter in the district office, and he came 
to the understanding that he would give us the cash provided that 
we would go to the Communist-controlled Xitgedaiget and Camp 
Unity. In other words, get some dough from the guests there and 
reimbui'se the party for a loan that they had given us. That was the 
understanding. So it was arranged that Quill and Hogan would go to 
those camps, which they did, and Santo and I wei-e to follow^ them 
up the next day. They went up and they took Angelo Herndon along 
from each camp and made a big play and told them about the thing ; 
and the result was. when the camp guests went home they left $1 
apiece, and that was turned back to the party, but we got our cash from 
Amter. 

We then proceeded in the automobile, after having a meal, to De- 
troit. 

Mr. Matthews.- And what did yon do when you reached Detroit? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, Ave contacted the executive board members of the 
Amalgamated and had a conference. The next day the board Avas 
complete, and Ave discussed this whole transit situation about affilia- 
tion. Of course, the question did arise — they Avere rather skeptical of 
our group, and they decided that after their convention, which was to 
be held a fcAv days later — they decided to send in an iuA^stigating 
committee to XeAv York City and then asked for our membership list 
and many questions, and then they Avould see about the unification. 

Mr. Matttieavs. I shoAv you a copy of the Motorman, Conductor, and 
Motor Coach Operator, a publication of the Amalgamated Associa- 



7922 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

tioii of Street, Electric Eailway, and Motor Coach Employees of 
America. 

Mr. O'Shea. That is it. 

Mr. Matthews. For August 1937? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You identify this as a document with whicli you 
are acquainted [handing pamphlet to the witness] ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. That is the official organ of the Amalga- 
mated Association of Street. Electric Eailway, and Motor Coach 
Em])loyees of America. 

Mr. Matthews. Does this explain the visit of your delegation? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. To Detroit at the time ? 

Mr. O'Shea, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. This is the union into which you were trying to 
bore as a Trojan Horse under the directions of the Comintern. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; that is it. 

Mr. Matthews. On ])age 3 of this bulletin there appears a picture. 
Will you please identify these individuals ? 

Mr. O'Shea. This is Austin Hogan [indicating]. 

Mr. Matphews. On the left ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; and Quill and Santo. 

Mr. Matthews. And the caption above that is : Red Dictator of 
Transport Workers ; is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Who are these persons on the back in the picture 
entitled "Birds of a Feather"? 

Mr. O'Shea. This is Quill and Thomas E. Murray, Federal receiver 
for the Interborough Rapid Transit Co., and this is John L. Lewis. 
This Avas when they were showing the closed-sho]) contract in 1937, 
taken in the head office of the Interborough Rapid Transit Co. 

Mv. Matthews. And this document also notes your membership in 
the delegation, does it not? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. In here you Avill notice reference of the trip 
by the delegation to Detroit to appear before the executive board to 
lay down a proposition. 

Mr. Matthews [reading] : 

Before Qnill took over tlie presidency of the Transport Workers Union in 1935 
he, Hogan, and Santo ma<le overtures to the Amalgamated Association of Street, 
Electric Railway, and jMotor Coach Employees. They came to Detroit and 
appeared before the general executive board to lay down a proposition. 

The general executive board made a thorough investigation of the Transport 
Workers Union and came to the conchision that there was no basis upon which the 
Amalgamated Association could accept the terms of their offer. At a later date 
Quill, Hogan, and Santo made further representations, but it was obvious the 
Amalgamated Association could not suspend its laws in favor of these men. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that be marked as an exhibit. 
(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked 
"O'Shea Exhibit No. 20" and made a part of the record.) 

Mv. Matthews. Mv. Chairman, I am not certain that I otfered the 
last two or three exhibits in evidence. If I did not, I wish at this 
time to offer O'Shea exhibits 18, 19, and the one just now marked 
"O'Shea Exhibit No. 20." 

The Chairmax. Thev mav be received. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7923 

(The exhibits marked "O'Shea Exhibits Nos. 18, 19, and 20" 
were made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, on your way buck from Detroit, where you 
went to discuss the question of eutcrino- this American Federation 
of Labor l^nion, did you slop at Clcvehind^ 

Mr. O'SnEA. Yes ; we stopped at Clevehmd. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. Did you call on the Connnunist Party headquar- 
ters in (Me^ehlnd ^ 

Mr. ()"Shea. AVell, we called ou the headquarters for the League 
for Peace and Democracy, and Santo apparently knew one of the 
New York Comnnuiists that Avas in the otlice, and we discussed the 
question. We discussed Avith them the transit situation in Cleve- 
land. So we were informed there that the three delegates who were 
elected from the streetcars of Cleveland, or the busses, or whatever 
it was there, were also members for the League for Peace or League 
Against AVar and Fascism; and that if the occasion arose, that those 
three delegates could be used by the party on any questions that 
might arise with reference to our affiliation with the American Fed- 
eratiou of Labor, if the question arose on the convention floor, 

]Mr. ]NL\TTHEws. You mean these Avere three delegates from the 
local union who were going to the national convention in Detroit^ 

Mr. O'SiiEA. That is right. 

]Mr. Matthews. And you Avere told at the headquarters of the 
American League that these three men Avere all members of the 
American League Against War and Fascism^ 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And could be used by the Communist Party to 
represent its interest on the floor of the convention in Detroit? 

:Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it your oAvn knoAvledge that the American 
League Against War and Fascism Avas a subsidiary of the Com- 
munist Party '. 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, yes, I kncAv that. EA^ery Communist knows that. 
That is just a AvindoAv dressing — the name is only a Avindow dressing 
for tlie party. 

]Mr. Matthews. When you arrived back in NeAV York, did you 
make a report to the Communist Party headquarters on your trip 
to Detroit '. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. When Ave returned Ave immediately went to 
the headquarters of the Communist Party and made a report to a 
member of the central committee. 

Mr. ]\L\TTHEAvs. Who Avas that ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Jack Stachel. 

]Mr. ]\Iattheaa\s. Who Avas present and saAv the report? 

Mr. O'Shea. Quill, Santo. Hogan, McCarthy, and I. 

Mr. Mattheavs. In addition to Jack vStachel to Avhom you made 
the report? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

^fr. Mattheavs. Do you knoAv Avhethef Jack Stachel was at that 
time in charge of the trade union work for the Communist Party 
tliroughout the United States^ 

Ml'. O'Shea. Yes. I knoAv he Avas in charge of the whole thing. 

Mr. Maitheavs. And subsequently Avas executiA'e secretary of the 
Communist Partv of the United States? 



7924 UN-AMERICAN ITvOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know where Jack Stachel is now, do 
you ? 

Mr. O'Shea. No; I don't. 

Mr. Matthews. You know that a great manj^ agencies would like 
to know wliere he is ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir ; so I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, wliat was the result of your conference with 
Jack Stachel on this occasion when you and Quill and Santo and 
Hogan presented your report on Detroit? 

Mr. O'Shea. The question arose — after, of course, the action of the 
executive board in Detroit we realized that we had a very shaky 
situation to deal with and we had discussed it in Detroit ourselves, 
so Santo had mentioned the fact that it would be a good policy if we 
had left somebody behind to make a contact with some party mem- 
bers who would attend the convention and have them bring up the 
question on the convention floor of the affiliation of the Transit 
Workers of New York City. And Santo reconsidered the question 
and went against it, but McCarthy, at this meeting with Stachel. was 
opposed. He said it should have been done — somebody should have 
been left there. So Stachel said: "No, it wouldn't be good policy; 
it was better to leave the thing go as it went and let the investigation 
go through and the easiest way was the best way. It wasn't the 
time for agitation on the convention floor. The proposition was too 
ticklish to fool around with." So Stachel agreed with Santo and 
that finished the situation. That was all. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the Amalgamated send some one to New York 
to investigate your union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. Some weeks later a delegation from the. 
executive board appeared and we were met by a group consisting of 
Quill. Santo, Hogan, Douglas MacMahon, the general counsel and I, 
discussed the whole union question, 

Mr. Matthews. What did the investigating committee of the 
Amalgamated decide? 

Mr. O'Shea. They didn't make anv decision l)ut they asked for 
figures in the ditferent departments and sliops and vai-ious questions — 
a lot of questions and we were notified some weeks later through 
their representative that the thing was all blocked; tliat he did not 
know exactly what the situation was in Detroit and, of course, he 
wouldn't make any statements on it. 

Mr. Matthews. AVliat advantage would it have been to the Com- 
munist Party to bring about this affiliation of the Transport Work- 
ers Union with the Amalgamated? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it was the policy of the party, particularly 
our group, to get inside of the Amalgamated particularly for this 
reason : that it was — that the Amalgamated is already established 
throughout the United States and Canada in the major cities, and 
their constitution was so written that it would give you a delegate 
for every 200 members. lii other words. New York City with an 
approximate figure of 35,000 members working in conjunction with 
delegates who would be party members from tlie various other cities, 
Avould be sufficiently strong enough as a block to take over a con- 
vention floor the following year or two. 



rX-AMKRirAN TROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7925 

Mr, Matthews. In other words tlirouo^li the size of your New York 
local which Avas already under the complete control of the Com- 
nninist Party 

Mr. OSiiEA. Yes, >ir. 

Mr. Matthews. You would be able to ^et into the Amalgamated 
and nominate the entire union, nationally — that was the hope of the 
]iarty, wasn't it? 

J\Ir. O'Shea. Internationally, yes — Canada and the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean that the Communist Party would have 
had complete control of the street cars, bus systems, in fact all trans- 
]v>rtation throuohout the United States and 

]Mr. O'Shea. Yes. and Canada. 

Mr. Mattheavs. If this had been successful? 

Mr, O'Shea. If it had succeeded. 

I\Ir. Mattheavs. Noav. you stated previously in your testimony 
the Connnunist Party paid the $300 for your trip to Detroit. Did 
this matter come before the membership of your union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. At that particular time we had our organ- 
ization — our union organization on a section basis and we had sec- 
t ion treasuries Avhich Avas later abolished, but at that particular time 
one of our treasurers, who had happened to be in one of the major 
shops of the Interborough Eapid Transit Co. Avhen the financial 
report Avas beino- read, questioned MaclNIahon, who Avas then financial 
secretary, on this item of the trip. JMacMahon Avas, of course, taken 
off of his feet for the time being — didn't expect such a question, and 
he said that each delegate to Detroit had paid the money out of his 
oAvn pocket and Avas to be reimbursed by the union when the union 
Avas sufficiently strong enough financially, 

Mr. IMati'heavs. What were you doing at this time? Were you 
you on home relief? 

Mr. O'Shea. I Avas taken off the job for union activities and taken 
off the job about a year and Avas on home relief. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was your home relief such as it would have been 
easy for you to repay these loans? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I certainly couldn't pay it out of my home- 
relief alloAvance. 

]Mr, IMattheavs, These alleged loans? 

Mr, O'Shea, These alleged loans, 

jMr. Mattheavs, Is this man Laury still an officer of the Transport 
Workers Union? 

jNIr, O'Shea, Yes, sir. He is a member of the executiA^e One 
Hundred and Forty-eighth Street, I, R, T, repair shop. 

]\Ir, ]Mai-theavs. This attempt to bore from Avithin the Amal- 
gamated by this Communist-controlled union, do you know whether 
the phrase "Trojan horse" is a part of the Comniunist Party's own 
literature and jar<ron? 

]\Ir, O'Shea. Oh, yes. They use that phrase. 

Mr. Mattheavs. They use the phrase? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, 

Mr. Mattheavs, Do you knoAv AAdiether or not Dimitroff in his 
speech at the Seventh World Congress used the illustration of Trojan 
horse ? 

Mr, O'Shea, Yes, sir. He really was the first to popularize it 
among the party members, after his speech. 



7926 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. And that was the tactics which he explained that 
the party must now specialize in for the purpose of getting into large 
organizations that Avere not Communist Party organized or con- 
trolled ? 

Mr. 0"Shea. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, at that time they 
claimed that the American section of the Communist International 
was sectarian and was isolated from the masses; that they were not 
carrying out the Marxist theory of boring from within properly ; that 
they were more or less taking a leftist position as the Communists 
would call it. 

Mr. Mattheavs. "Left-wing infantilism"? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. They were more or less isolated from the 
masses. They wore the same kind of clothes and had red handker- 
chiefs and red ties and they said that should stop. They said they 
should dress like the other people and talk like the other people. 
That was the new line. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you publicly known as a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. 0"Shea. Oh, no. 

Mr. Matthews. At this time? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely not; no. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was Quill? 

Mr. O'Shea. Xo. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was Hogan known as a member of the Communist 
Party? 

^Ir. O'Shea. None of the officers Avere knoATu as membei'S of the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Mattheaa^s. Did you eA'er haA^e any explicit instructions as to 
AA'hat you should do if you were questioned under oath as to your 
membership in the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. I recall Rose Wortis and I Avere members of a frac- 
tion. If AAe eA^er happened to get locked up the only thing Avas to 
lie. lie, lie out of it — don't hesitate to lie; protect yourself and protect 
the party at all times. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Would it liaA^e been dangerous to the union? 

Mr. O'Shea. AVell, naturally to expose the union at the time as a 
party organization Avould haye caused it to collapse, no question about 
it. 

Mr. ]Matthews. Do you knoAv Avhether or not Michael Quill has 
since admitted his membership in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. O'Shea. No; he never has. 

Mr. jSIattheavs. Hogan? 

Mr. O'Shea. No. Denied it, as a matter of fact. 

Mr. ]\Iattheavs. Now, having failed to obtain a charter from the 
Amalgamated, AA'hat union did you try next? 

Mr. O'Shea. We made contact then with the International Asso- 
ciation of Machinists. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did you succeed in getting into that union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. Through one man named James Matles. 

Mr. ]\Iattheavs. Was he a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. He was also a member of the Communist Party and 
through his efforts — he had apparently made contact with the ex- 
ecutiyes of the International Association of Machinists and arranged 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7927 

a contVi-cnce with our o-i-onj). witli Santo and Quill, to appoai' at 
Washinoioii and discuss alHliation with the machinists. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the James Matles who is now a national 
or<ranizer for the United p]lectri( :il. Radio Machine Workers of 
America '. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir. He is what is known as the national di- 
rector. 

Mr. ^fATTiiEws. National director of the United Electrical. Radio 
and Machine Workers of America? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; national director of the United Electrical, Radio 
and ^Machine Workers of America. 

Mr. Matthews. Of which James Carey 

Mr. O'Shea. James Carey is general secretary of the C. I. O. 

Mr. MATTHE^\'S. AVill yon please describe how it was that Matles 
brought about your successful enterin^r of the machinists' union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well. Matles had. as I stated, went to Detroit and 
discussed with the machinists the large membership that could be 
brought into his organization and it was decided that our delegation 
should go to AVashington and take up this whole question, which 
they did. And they issued a charter to us at the time and we became 
lodge 1547 of the International Association of ^Machinists. 

Mr. Matthews. That was the American Federation of Labor. 

Mr. O'Shea. American Federation of Labor; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. When did yon first meet James Matles? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well. I first Inet James Matles in the early days of 
organization at the fraction meetings. 

The Chairman. AVhen was that? 

Mr. O'Shea. That was at 80 East Eleventh Street. 

The Chairman. What date? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, actually the first time I met him I would say 
would be around "35 when we were talking of the question of going 
in the American Federation of Labor. As a matter of fact Irving 
Potash of the Furriers union and James Matles attended one of our 
fraction meetings and they warned us. of course, ''When you get 
into the American Federation of Labor it was a question of watch- 
ing your step." And they explained what happened among the 
furriers and other groups. 

The Chairman. When you say among the "'furriers," do you mean 
that the Communist Party had in the manner in which you have 
described their control of the transport workers, that they also 
had control of the Furriers Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. They were working in the Furriers Union 
at the time this question of Irving Potash had come up. He never 
worked in the industry and to get in he had to show that he was 
competent to work on furs and he described in detail of how he 
went to — ai)))renticed himself and learned the business and the Ameri- 
can Fedei-ation of Labor executive couldn't keep him out. 

The Chairman. AVhat other union were they working in at that 
time to get control of? 

iNIr. O'Shea. Oh. all the time — there Avas the food workers, laun- 
dry workers — oh, there was 

The Chairman. Which ones did they make the most progress in? 

]\Ii-. O'Shea. The United Radio, Electrical, and Machine Workers 

94931— 40— vol, 13 17 



7928 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

became one of the strongest national gi<)ups. They had establislied 
themselves in machine shops in the New England States and I be- 
lieve out in the Middle West. They went further really than the 
transport. 

The Chairman. They got stronger control of the radio and elec- 
trical workers than they did the Transport Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact they controlled it from 
top to bottom and do today. As I say. James Matles is the director 
and Charlie McCarthy is the 

The Chairman. And they completely control the union? 

]Mr. O'Shea. They completely control the union. 

The Chairman. What power does that give them? What is their 
anxiety to become entrenched in that union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I recall at one time William Foster discussed 
the question with us when we were going into the machinists, the 
importance of machine shops working with steel^ — that all products, 
all manufacttired products from the steel industry had to pass 
through these machine shops. In other words the situation created 
in a machine shop industry would also paralyze the steel in.dtistry 
for the reason the stuff wotddn't be machined and therefore it was 
important to the party to have control of that particular industry. 

The Chairman. Did the party work into the Maritime Union suc- 
cessfully ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. Roy Htidson is the man l)ehind the scenes. He 
was the director of the forces in the Maritime Union. 

The Chairman. Did they make much progress in the Maritime 
Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. On the west coast they had complete control. In 
New York they were making exceptionally strong headway and then 
in the South, I understand around New Orleans, they were digging 
in pretty strongly. 

The Chairman. It is now 12 : 10. Will it be convenient to meet 
back here at 1 o'clock? If so, we will recess now until 1 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 12: 10 p. m.. the hearing was recessed until 1 p. m., 
the same day.) 

after recess 

The Chairman. The committee will resume. You may proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS HUMPHREY O'SHEA— Resumed 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. O'Shea, this morning I showed you a photo- 
static copy of a portion of the Daily Worker for May 1, 1934. I 
wish to read a paragraph of that article, "Transit Workers Are 
Seething Against Company Unions, Low Wages." 

Capable oomi-ades could be spared to write swell editorials, long articles 
analyzing the class struggle. Equally could they be spared for the organizing of 
workers in light industries, like pooketbook shops, millinery, furniture, and 
mattress makers. If all the workers in these industries, and, for good measure 
one may add Ben Gold's fur workers, would go on strike for 6 weeks, life in 
New York City would continue more or less the same. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGAXPA ACTIVITIES 7929 

But if tlir trausir wurkers of New York ssliould strike for hours only, the 
life of tho whok' t-ity would he upside down. Witli a liitlc i)ractieal application 
of tlio Open Letter, the taxi strike inijiht have been turned into a gij^antic battle 
of New York transit workers auaitist the Wall Street bankers ; a battle the like 
of which New York has never seen, and which would knock a number of l)rieks 
off the capitalistic structure. 

Is tliat the conception of the importance of the transit workers 
from the standpoint of the Connniinist Party strategy? 

Mr. O'SiiKA. Yes. sir. Tliat is the strategy. 

Mr. Matthfavs. 'I'liat lias ah-eady been marked in evidence as ''Ex- 
hibit No. 19."" Wliat are the important positions to be secured by 
the Comnumist Part}' in a trade or labor union? 

Mr. O'Shea. The i)rincipal positions in a trade and hibor union 
is Xo. 1, secretary; Xo. 2, bulletin editor — the editor of whatever 
the official organ might be; and lawyer. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Will you please state briefly why these three par- 
ticular ]i()sitions. that of secretary, bulletin editor, and lawyer are 
so important from the standpoint of Communist control of a union? 

Mr. 0"Shea. Well, you see the secretary, secretary-treasurer's posi- 
tion, which is usually held in national unions, gives complete control 
of minutes, financial reports, and all communications. 

As for the editor of the paper he can prepare the ground work 
for any future problems that will arise. In other words, if they 
were planning a strike situation or wanted to create a particular 
situation, the ground work woidd be prepared by the bulletin 
through art and pictures and various things of that nature. 

And a lawyer, of course, is really very important insofar as courts 
and testimony, and lots of things are given where men are arrested, 
and. of course, you know there is quite a lit of tabooing done from 
time to time and you must have the right man in the right place — 
can"t aiford to have a man except he is pretty well linked up with 
the party. 

Mr. jNIatthews. You mean the party engages in acts of sabotage 
in these key industries? 

Mr. 0"Shea. Sure, absolutely. 

^Ir. ]\Iattitews. In the key industries is it important to have a 
lawyer who accepts the party position on sabotage? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. ^ 

Mr. Matthews. In order to 

Mr. O'Shea. Present a good case. 

Mr. Matthews. Present a defense in court? 

Mr. O'Shea. To make a good case and protect the individuals in- 
volved. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat other positions can be used by the Com- 
munist Party for its purposes in a trade union? 

Mr. 0"Shea. The secretary, as I say, is the most important. As 
a matter of record the now president of the Transport AYorkers' 
Union, who was in 1037 secretary of Lodge 1547. which was the 
Transport Workers" Union in tlie American Federation of Labor, 
l)layed a very important role on this question of C. I. O. versus 
A. F. of L. split. 

Mr. M.\tthews. Well, let me ask you about some specific illustra- 
tions of that. I show vou a copy of the Transport Workers' Bul- 
letin, dated March 1, 1936. Will you identify that? 



7930 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. That is the official organ of the Transport 
Workers' Union. 

Mr. Matthews. And I show yon a page from the Machinists' 
Monthly Jonrnal for March 1936, page 154. Can you identify that 
[handing paper to witness] ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. This is the agreement signed between the Trans- 
port Workers' Union, independent, and the National Association of 
Machinists at the time of the affiliation. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, this was the affiliation that was brought about 
partly through the instrumentality of James Matles ; is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, in reporting this agreement for affiliation, 
how — - — 

Tlie Chairman. Just one second. The Chair announces a subcom- 
mittee composed of Mr. Mason, of Illinois; Mr. Voorhis, of Califor- 
nia, who is not present but who is on the subcommittee; and the 
chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. You identify this page from the Machinists Jour- 
nal [handing paper to the witness] ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please show from these two publi- 
cations, the one of the Transport Workers' Union and tlie other of 
the International Association of Machinists, how the bulletin editor 
was in a strategic position? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, gentlemen of the committee, as you will note in 
this official organ dated March 1, 1936, an article is prepared in this 
dealing specifically with this agreement signed by the machinists. 
And I have marked off here "a charter grants jurisdiction over all 
employees in the transit industry of New York,'' under the caption of 
"Transit Employees in Wave of Organization Joining Transport 
Workers on News of American Federation of Labor x\ffiliation." 

As you will note from this, the impression ci-eated was an industrial 
set-up. "All workers," it says, "in the transit system.'' 

Mr. Matthews. You mean an industrial union set-up as opi)osed 
to a craft union set-up ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Craft union, and on the other hand we find signed 
actually at the same time by A. O. Wharton, international })resident 
of the machinists; E. C. Davison, general secretary-treasurer; and for 
the Transport Workers Union, Austin Hogan, general secretary; and 
Michael Quill, president; John Santo, general organizer; and Arthur 
Laury, member of the delegates' council. 

Clause 6 of this agreement states ; 

In the event certain of the members come under the jurisdiction of otlier 
organizations and claim is made for sucli members, tlie matter will be worked 
out with the object in view of preserving unity of action between our organiza- 
tion and the organization making such claim. It not being our desire to segregate 
any of the membership involved in this amalgamation except to the extent we 
are obligated to do so and only when we believe no injury will result to the 
members directly concerned. Any adjustments of this kind to be made only 
after careful consideration. 

Now, as you will note, the agreement actually signed is a craft 
agreement. * The bulletin editor, on the other hand, in presenting it 
to the membership as a whole through this paper, which is given 
freely to all members of the union, gives an industrial phase. 



rX-AMKRICAX TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7931 

111 other words, that chiuse of the a<i,reenient was not written in and 
the full facts given to the membership. 

Mr. Mattiikws. In other words, a part of the agreement for affilia- 
t ion was suppressed ? 

yh'. O'Shea. Suppressed. 

The Chairman. By the editor? 

Mr. O'Shea. Bv the editor. 

Mr. Matthews. Of tlie Transport Workers Bulletin? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]Matthews. Does the Communist Party strongly favor the 
industrial type of union organization? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir. That is the party line. 

Mr. ^NIa'ithews, As a matter of fact, it is opposed on principle to 
craft union organization? 

Mr. O'Shea. It is opposed to the craft nnions on principle. 

Mr. Matthews. It would not hesitate to use craft organizations? 

Mr. O'Shea. No; to serve their purpose. 

Mr. Matthews. But it predicates its revolutionary theory on the 
large industrial union rather than craft unions? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. is it true that the Communist Party propa- 
ganda in the Transport Workers Union in New York had led the 
members to believe that the Communist Party or the union itself 
were to favor only that industrial type of organization in the Trans- 
port ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That was the situation. 

Mr. Mattheavs. So it was necessarv not to disillusion the mem- 
bers? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 

Mr. Matthews. With respect to the actual agreement which was a 
craft agreement ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And to lead them to believe that they had got an 
industrial union type of organization? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And is that the kind of suppression and distortion 
(hat a party member who is the editor of a trades-union publication 
customarily practices? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. That is the general policy of the party 
members in such capacity. 

Mr. Matthews. I wish to show you some docmnents, Mr. O'Shea, 
which arc affidavits signed by various individuals. Can you identify 
these I handing papers to the witness] ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. ^Matthews. This is an affidavit : "State of New York, County 
of Bronx." 

Mr. O'vShka. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Made by AVilliam J. Halloran. And this is an 
affidavit : "'State of New York. County of Bronx." made by Christo- 
pher Fin. and this is an affidavit: ''State of New York. County of 
Bronx." made by John Cronin. You identify these? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. These affidavits? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 



7932 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Wha*^ is the purport of these affidavits as they re- 
late to this question ? 

Mr. O'Shea. We should take this first. 

Mr. Matthews. You want to take the suppressed letter first? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. All rioht. Then I show you a communication ad- 
dressed — this is a copy of a letter from the International Association 
of Machinists. 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Machinists Building, Washington, D. C, under 
date of ^lay 10, 1987, addressed to Messrs. Michael J. Quill, Santo, 
Douglas, MacMahon, Joseph B. English, M. H. Forge, business repre- 
sentatives. Is this a true copy of an original which you have? 

^Ir. O'Shea. This is a true copy. 

Mr. Matthews. Which you have seen ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please explain the contents of this 
letter [handing letter to witness] ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, gentlemen, at the time of the Transport Workers 
Union seceding from the American Federation of Labor and going 
into the C. I. O., at this particular period I didn't know the true situa- 
tion, only that the question was coming up of breaking away. I sent 
a connnunication to Washington requesting information on the sub- 
ject. Of course, I didn't hold any official capacity in the union at the 
time. I requested from Mr. Wharton information on the trouble 
which existed between the international office and the local, so he 
answered me ; and I think I have a co])y of the letter here. It is dated 
May 11, 19;37. The letter is addressed to me: 

Dear Sir and Brother: This will afkiK)wledge receipt of your letter dated 
l\Iay 10, and I have forwarded enpy of it to the vice president, Boweu, suggesting 
that lie contact yon at the first opportunity. 

I have invited the officers of Lodge 1547 to meet with nie at our headquarters 
in Washington, Wednesday, May 12, at 10 a. m., t<» discuss the situation which has 
deveIo])ed. P>ut I liave no means of knowing at this time whether or not they 
will favoi'ably respond. However, I assure you that it is my honest opinion that 
tliey have made a very serious mistake, and in the interest of the men who are 
so vitally affected I hope it will not prove disastrous to tliem. 

The offieei's of the lodge have never connnunieated with me relative to any of 
the nnitters which may have contributed to the action taken, and I have no in- 
formation from any otlier source. So you can readily understand that as far as 
headquarters is concerned we are completely in the dark except for information 
we secured through the medium of the press, which to say the least is not de- 
pendable. 

I would like to suggest that you carefully read the press page in the May issue 
of our monthly .lournal, where I believe you will find information that should be 
of interest to those who are contenqilating an affiliation with the C. I. O. 
Fraternally yours, 

A. O. Wharton, 
International President. 

Mr. Matthews. What led vou to make that inquiry of Mr. 
Wharton ? 

IVIr. O'Shea. It was drawn to my attention by a chairman at the 
time that this question of C. I. O.-A. F. of L. was coming on the 
floor of the delegates' council meeting. I had no means, of course, 
of getting anything official without connnunicating with the national 
office, which I did, and this is the answer. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7933 

As you will note, he stated in his letter to me that he had communi- 
cated by special-delivery letter to the office of the Transport Union- 



Mr. Matthews. Xow. is this a copy of tliat letter to which you 
refer ^ 

Mr. O'SiiEA. That is a coi)y of the letter which was sent from the 
national office of the machinists to Quill. Santo, MacMahon, and 
Fortre, and the othej's. 

Mr. Mai THEWS. Did this letter come to the attention of the union 
members 'i 

Mr. O'Shea. Xo. Not even to the Communist Party members on 
the executive board. It Avas absolutely kept out of the agenda and 
Hogan. who was the secretary at the time, made it his business to see 
it wasn't placed on the agenda. 

What I am bringing out in this question is the importance of a 
position as secretary of concealing this document which undoubtedly 
would liave clarified the whole situation on the C. J. O. versus A. F. 
of L. in this particular given situation, 

Mr. ^Matthews. In other words the secretary of the union, Austin 
Hogan, who was a member of the Communist Party, was suppressing 
correspondence that shotild have been brought to the attention of 
the entire membership of the tmion or its exectitive bodies, at least, 
to enable them to act with more information on this qttestion of the 
M'ithdrawal of the Transport Workers' Union from its A. F. of L. 
affiliaticm^ 

^fr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MATTHinvs. And entering the C. I. O., is that correct? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, these affidavits are in support of this ques- 
tion of the letter being suppressed, are they not? 

Mr. 0'She.v. Yes. Well. I then made an investigation, as a matter 
of fact, it came to my attention by another man who presented one 
of his imion books to me — as a matter of fact, I have the original 
here. This is the actual book of the member. In this book he pre- 
sented to me, you will notice a signature where a stamp shoidd be 
affixed. AVell, this particular worker did not know the rules and 
regulations of the organization. In other words, he did not know his 
constitutional rights and he asked me was it in order. I said, "No, 
the constitution of the union specifically states that to be in good 
standing your book must be properly canceled and stamped with a 
stamp from the national office as a receipt for dues paid." 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Avill you please read that part of the con- 
stitution ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Page 18 of the International Association of Ma- 
chinists' constitution states here, page 18, lines 37 and 38: 

The general secretary-trea.snrer shall furnish stamps as receipts. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, he woidd not be allowed to merely 
sign the book without a stamp as a receipt for the pavment of dues? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Would th;it aifect a man's death benefits in the 
tmion ? 

Ml'. O'Shea. Yes. sir. It is imj)ortant for this reason. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, if his book was not properly 
marked with a stamp 



7934 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. For 3 months he would lose all benefits. There was 
a death benefit for instance, maturing after 11 years of $300, and of 
his dues which he paid, a percentage of that was paid as per capita 
tax to put him in good standing. Now, what happened — I asked 
them from the national office of the Machinists when the last report 
was made on the financial question from the lodge. So I get an 
ans^^er back from Wa.shington, dated September 1, 1938: 

Subject : Transport Workers Lodge 1547. 

It is signed by H. W. Brown, general vice president. 

The last report by the fiiiaiicia] secretary of Lodge 1.547 to the general 
secretary-treasurer's department was for .January 1937, and said report indi- 
cated 4,714 members. Our former I^odge 1547, seceded to east their lot witli 
the C. I. O. during May of 1937, and at that time the said lodge had a debit 
balance with the grand lodge of $1,591.15. 

Another point I want to bring out here is this. It was January 
1937 when the last financial report was made. They seceded in 
May and became the C. I. O., which was 5 months later. In other 
words 

Mr. Matthews. In a period of 5 months? 

Mr. O'Shea. No per capita tax was paid to the national office. 
All dues that were received from January until May was retained 
in the local office, and all those members who paid those dues were 
not in good standing. Now, then I went to some of the shop 
stewards and asked them what was the presentation given by the 
union on this question. One particular man was a sho]) steward. 
Hie collected the dues. And this is his affidavit. I will read it for 
you. It is rather short : 

State of ISfew Tobk, 

Count tj of Bronx: 

William J. Halloran, being duly sworn, deposes and s^iys : 

That since the 2i)th day of May 1929 he has been employed by the Inter- 
borough Rapid Transit Co. in the capacity of station agent. 

That in January of 1937, up to and including May 1937, deponent w'as a 
member of the Transport Workers Lodge, No. 1547, International Association 
of Machinists, and was a duly authorized steward with authority to collect 
dues from the members and to pick up their union books as they paid their 
monthly dues. It w'as the procedure for deponent, as steward, to bring the 
xinion liooks, together with the dues of the vai'ious memliers, to union head- 
quarters, where Michael Forge, as office manager, would insert in the books 
monthly stamps as receipts for dues paid. 

That in March, April, and May of 1937. upon bringing the books of the 
members to union headquarters for the purpose of having dues receipt stamps 
inserted therein, deponent was informed by Mich'ael Forge, as office manager 
for the Transport Workers Lodge, No. 1547, that there was a shortage of 
stamps in the national office of the International Association of Machinists 
ami that, therefore, no stamp receipts could be placed in the books. 

Accordingly, many of the men, for the months of March, April, and May of 
1937, have membership books which are not properly stamped showing receipt 
by the Transport Workers Lodge, No. 1547, International Association of Ma- 
cliinists. 

WiLT^iAM Joseph Halloran. 

Sworn to before me this 6th day of September 1938. 

Daniel Flaxnery, Nofarii Pudlic. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, let us get that picture perfectly clear. In 
other words here is a membership book which instead of having a 
stamp affixed as a receipt for the payment of dues, the square is 
initialed ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7935 

Mr. MArriii'.ws. Now, this ineaiis that the money was taken in but 
not forwarded to national head<iuarteis in payment for a stam[) ^ 

Mr. ()\Shea. Exactly. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And the union <rrtve to this man the explanation 
that there was a shorta<ie of stamps^ 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. Xoav, did the national head(|iuirters agree there 
was a shortage of stamps^ 

Mr. O'SiiEA. Well, in this connnunication which I previously read, 
under ''financial report" I also asked this question: '•'Was there ever 
a shortage of stamps in the national office?" And following is 
the answer from the general vice president : 

There luner was a slmrraco of due stainps \u>v initiation and reinstatement 
stamps in onr grand lodge hoadtinarters. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, there Avas a false explanation 
given to the members for not affixing a stamp and thereby depriv- 
nig this member of the union of his death benefits? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. I also have here affidavits from two men 
who were also employed in the industry of the transit field, but 
who were taken oif the job at that particular time to do work as 
temporaj'v organizers, witli the residt that they had to go on the 
l^ayroll of the union. 

It so happened that at one particular time they were unable to 
draw their salaries and those affidavits will show exactly the situation 
as it ATas at that time. I will read one of them for you and the other 
is simply more or less on the same style : 

State of New York. 

Coiniti/ of Bronx. 

Christopher Finn, being duly sworn, deposes and says: 

That he is and has been since September 1929 employed by the Inter- 
borongh Rapid Transit Co., in the capacity of station agent. 

That on or about the 5th day of May 19:^7 lie was vice president. Section 2, 
Transport Workers Lodge 1547 of the International Association of Machinists, 
affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, and was working as an 
organizer for the nnion. 

That on or about that date, he accompanied John Cronin, another organizer 
to the offices of the Union. 153 West Sixty-fourth Street, New York City, for 
rhe purpose of drawing his pay as an organizer. 

That he was present, and was informed along with John Cronin by ]Micliael 
Forge, office manager for the iniion. that pa.v checks would be held up for 2 
or 3 days due to the fact that funds of the luiion were being transferred to 
another bank account. 

I was further informed by Michael Forge that the purpose of tlie withdrawal 
and the opening of the new account was to retain possession of some ,$25,000 
which liad been collected as the per capita tax of the Intei-national Associa- 
tion of Macliinists. and that by putting it in another account the International 
Association of Machinists would not be able to claim it. 

This is signed by Christopher Finn and sworn to "before me this 
6th day of September, 1938. Daniel Flannery, notary public." 

]Mr. Matthews. In other words, here was the sum of $25,000 which 
has been improperly kept back from naticmal headquarters on pay- 
ments of dues; is that the situation? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is exactly the situation. 

Mr. Matthews. And do you have any information as to why such 
funds are kept back by members of the Communist Party who hold 
positions of secretary -treasurer ? 



7936 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it is natural to expect that the part}- controlling 
the machine were going to utilize as much of funds as possible for 
propaganda work, for the purpose, in other words, to swell the 
general fund of their organization in any Avay that they could get 
a hold of money. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any other organizations where 
the party has made it a principle to control the positions of secre- 
tary ancl treasurer? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. A similar situation developed, from what I un- 
derstand, from investigations I made, with the Lodges 1548, 1549, and 
1550 of the machinists at that time, which are now the International 
Radio, Electrical & Machine Workers of America. C. I. O. affiliate, of 
which James Matles is director and Carey is president, James Matles, 
of course, was also in this swim for the reason, you will note on the 
agreement signed lietween the Transport Workers' Union and the 
Machinists, that Matles sat in at a conference and his name appears 
and he also did the very same thing with those lodges. He grabbed 
all the per capita tax he could lay his hands on when the time, the 
psychological moment, arrived, and then shot them into the C. I. O. 

Mr. Matthews. The union funds, then, were misappropriated for 
party purposes? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; thev actuallv committed fraud. Thev did not 
record the deatli benefits of the members. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please explain, Mr. O'Shea, if that 
is the conclusion of that matter, how it was that the affiliation with 
the International Association of Machinists was planned some 6 
montlis in advance, or the withdrawal from the affiliation was planned 
some 6 months in advance? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it was a political situation affecting the Com- 
munist Party as a whole. It so happened that the Communist Inter- 
national in 1935 laid down a definite policy for the American section 
of the Communist International. And it was a simple program of, 
No. 1, organizing the unorganized : No. 2. un.ited front against fascism; 
No. 3. the Farmei--Labor Party, Now, in the situation we find when 
we went into the A. F. of L. we were carrying out the united-front 
policy and that was going inside of the A. F. of L. Now, No. 2 came 
along and that was organizing the unorganized. We already had 
completed a ]:)art of the ]irogram of the luiited front, but then the 
situation developed toward the United States. The C. I. O. became 
a mass movement. It began to sweep through industry, and the party 
was faced with the situation that for the moment thev had to drop 
the united-front policy and secede from the A. F. of L. to organize 
the iniorganized. 

You see, with the purpose, of course, in mind of again returning to 
the A, F, of L. to fulfill the part of the program, the united-front 
policy by going back and taking over the labor movement, which, of 
course, records show and prove that members of the C, I. O., which 
incidentally the International president, Quill, was one of the dele- 
gates who a])peared at Washington to negotiate with the American 
Federation of Labor on this question. You recall, of course, where 
these negotiations broke down. Well, that was the purpose at the 
time with the fulfilling the decision as laid down by the Seventh 
World Congress of the Communist International. 



IN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7937 

iNIr. Matthews. Do you mean to say the policies of the Ti'aiisport 
Workers Union tout'hinjz afliliat ions were determined not by the union 
but by the determining policy made in Moscow? 

Ml'. O'Shea. Absolutely; Seventh World Con^jress. 

^Ir. Matthews. You are sure of that-? 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely. The policy of the Seventli \\'()rl(l Con- 
gress 

Mr. Mattheavs. Is it now the polic}- of the Conmuuiist Interna- 
tional to bring- about a reunion? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir. It is still the united-front policy as it exists — 
still the same. They have got to g4^t back to the A. F. of L. How they 
are going to do it is a question. They also have to organize the 
unorganized, which is another part of the program. Now, the ques- 
tion of the united front as it appears in America, they are dealing not 
alone with the C. I. O. and the A. F. of L., but yon have the four 
standard railroads — nearly 1.000,000 workers — and anybody reading 
the public press knows that a conference took place or. not a confer- 
ence, but suggestions were made some time ago that the C. I. O.- 
A. F. of L. standard railroads should come together. It was inti- 
mated at the time tliat William (Ireen and the secretarv should resig-n 
and apparently Joiui L. Lewis had agreed to leave the picture and 
that some other party should act as president to sort of solve this 
question. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Xow. in the discussions that took place 

The Chairmax. Just a moment. There was an eifort made to 
unite the labor groups, but that doesn't mean that the effort was in- 
spired by the Comnuuiist International. There are many people 
in this countrv who believe that ought to be done? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is true. 

The Chairman. AVho certainly are not in sympathy with the 
Communist program. I mean by that, the fact that that was sug- 
gested or the fact that that has been advocated by people in the 
United States does not even remotely leave the impression that it 
was inspired from abroad or by the Communist Party. Isn't that 
a fact? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is true. 

The Chairman. What you mean to say is that that is the program 
of the Communist Partv? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly'. 

The Chairman. And also the views of a great many ]:)eop]e who 
are not Communists in any sense? 

Mr. O'Shea. Progressive people naturally believe you should have 
one labor body in the country, but the policy of the party is to see 
that those unions become one group: then they will have solved 
the united front policy in the trade-union field. 

The Chairman. To what extent did the Communists leave or 
carry with them theii- unions and go to the C. I. O.? Did the 
nuijoi-ity of them leave? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well. I will tell you. Xot in all cases — where it 
Avasn't necessary — where they hadn't a question of organizing the 
unorganized, like, let us take for instance, the Musicians' Ithou in 
New York. Local 802. That is an A. F. of L. union. Communists 
control them. They didn't leave the A. F. of L. at the time. "\Miy? 
Simply that New York was already organized in that field and it 



7938 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

would not have been of any advantage to the party to come out and 
organize the unorganized and try to get back again. You see what 
I mean. 

Now. secondly, in the Transport Union situation there was an- 
other question involved. The Transport Workers' Union at that 
time was only a lodge and confined to the New York district and as 
such could not branch out into other fields to organize the unorgan- 
ized. To do so it was necessary to break from the A. F. of L., get 
into national status which gave them the right to go into Canada 
and the United States, and build up a mass movement; develop new 
cadres. That is all proof of their revolutionary tactics. Get into 
the American Federation of Labor with stronger forces and event- 
ually destroy the leadership and take it over. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. O'Shea, would it be a correct state- 
ment of this policy to say that the Communist Party effects very 
ra))idly reversals of its policy from one position to another? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, it is true. There is no question they will if it 
serves their purpose — any means justifies the end. 

Mv. Matthfavs. In other words, favoring at one moment and going 
into the A. F. of L., and very soon getting out of the A. F. of L., 
and then getting back into the A. F. of L. ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. That is what you are saying? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Not because the Conmiunist Party desires a uni- 
fied laboi' movement? 

Mr. O'Shea. No. 

Mr. Matthews. But because its interests at one moment, as it sees 
them, are served by going into one union and then getting out of it 
and next getting back into it ; is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it true that Quill and Hogan and Santo knew 
and planned 5 months in advance for taking the Transpoit AVorkers 
Union out of the A. F. of L. into the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. O'Shea. No question about it. 

The Chairman. That is merely a conclusion on your part. You 
are basing it upon the fact that the circumstances you have outlined 
indicate that ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

The Chairman. Namely, that they had withheld payment of the 
per capita tax to the national office? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that the only information you have on which 
to base your statement? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I know myself the policy as laid down by the 
party from experience within the party. 

The Chairman. You know it was the policy of the party that all 
Communists were to go into the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. O'Shea. They were to organize the unorganized. I knew 
that they were also to create a united front wherever the situation 
warranted, and I knew that from the Communist point of view that 
it was correct, as far as they were concerned, of organizing the un- 
organized. 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7939 

The C'liAiKMAx. So that from your knowledge of the Communist 
policy and the fact tliat these funds were Avithhehl 

Mr. O'SiiKA. Yes. sii-. 

The CiiAuniAN. You base the statement that Quill and the others 
knew about this movement 5 months in advance and made prepara- 
tions for withdrawal from the A. F. of L. ^ 

]\Ir. O'Shea. Well, as a matter of fact when we were <i-oin<r in the 
A. F. of L. I he san)e ground that was j)repared. Our bulletin had 
to show a dirterent front because the policy at that time was, when 
we were an independent organization, was to attack the A. F. of L. 
Well, the bulletin — wldle you couldn't automatically change over 
night, it took months. You had to put in different articles about 
the A. F. of L. — maybe dealing with Frisco — about the organization, 
but wlien the time was ripe the men were already prepared to go in. 

The Chati!3iax. It took 4 or 5 months to make a sudden change; 
in policy ( 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir: it took time. 

The Chairman. And the ground work had to be laid? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. And the proper foundation laid and in going 
out the same thing had to be done. 

Mr. ]\L\TTHEWs. Now. ]Mr. O'Shea. do von know a man named 
Sol Miles? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. Sol Miles was — I understand that he is — con- 
nected with the newspaper guild. He came to the Trans])ort Union 
around about that time — about the time of the split, and he handled 
the publicity end of the union question. All press releases had to 
pass through his hands. He examined all press releases and saw that 
they Avere carrying the. party line and the correct presentation was 
made to the press. He was on the rolls for a short time. I don't 
think he is at the present time in the organization. He only came 
in for some months to do that particular job of handling the pub- 
licity end for the party, being, of course, an experienced man in the 
]iewspaper field. 

^Ir. Mattheavs. Was he a member of the Connnunist Party ? 

^Ir. O'Shea. Oh, yes: sure: a member of the Comnnmist Party. 

Ml-. Maitheavs. And he handled the publicity for the Transport 
Woikers' Union in this question of shifting to the C. I. O. ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. And arranging press releases. 

The Chairman. Now. let me get back a little bit. From your ex- 
perience in this union and your membership and experience in the 
Comnnmist Party Avould you say that the policies of the union Avere 
directed by the Communist Party i 

Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely, from its very inception. 

The Chairaiax. That the ])olicy Avas determined in advance by 
Communist leadershij) and that ])olicy Avas outlined to tlie leader- 
ship of the union and by the union carried out in the Transport 
In ion? 

Mr. O'Shea. Exactly. 

The Chairman. Is that right? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is right. 

The Chah^max. Tlie Transport A)'orkers' Union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

The Chairman. What other policies were outlined in addition to 
purely union matters? 



7940 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, the general policy, as I say, the Comintern 
organized the unorganized, the united front, and Farmer-Labor 
Party. 

The Chairman. I am speaking with reference to the political field. 
Were there an}- instructions as to what was to be done with reference 
to local political fights or national political fights? Did they under- 
take to control the union for political purposes? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, of course ihej did. There was a definite line laid 
down for the party members to follow even with national questions 
in America. 

The Chairman. Do you know" of instances involving the leadership 
or the fraction that you belonged to? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I recall the national elections in the United 
States for the first time, I think, of President Roosevelt. This ques- 
tion came up and it was a burning question on the floor. The Com- 
munist Party went around to their sections and instructed them how 
they should act on this political question. 

The Chairman. Did they do that with reference to the State elec- 
tions, also, and local elections? 

Mr. OVShea. Oh, yes. State and local elections, the same situation. 

The Chairman, What about their own candidates? Were they 
concerned about building up any strength for the Communist can- 
didates ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I will just give you an example. For instance, 
in New York City I was transferred from one unit to another — the 
transportation unit to section 5 of the Communist Party in the Bronx, 
and I was on the bureau of that section and the question came up oi 
what stand the Communist Party would take on the national elec- 
tion — the question of President Roosevelt and Landon. So the posi- 
tion of the party now as Communists, we cannot vote for Landon. 
We must vote Communist, so the membership — well, if you do that 
you are voting — supporting Roosevelt. No, we are voting Com- 
munist, but you don't vote for Landon. That w^as the position of 
the party at the time. In other words — but tliey knew themselves 
what reaction of the membership would be. They couldn't get the 
masses of the people to vote for the purpose, but they didn't want 
Landon under any circumstances. So that was the party's position. 

The Chairman. What other questions did they try to control out- 
,side of political questions ? 

Ml'. Mason. On the political question I would like to ask a ques- 
tion. Did I understand Michael Quill was a candidate for the 
council in New York City ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is true. He had the office for 2 years. 

Mr. Mason. He ran for the council in what year? 

Mr. O'Shea. 1935, I think it was; 1935 to 1937. Just last year 
he was defeated. 

Mr. IMason. Do you know w^hat action the Communist Party took 
in New York in regard to his candidacy? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, as far as that was concerned — Quill, the ground 
work was prepared for Quill almost 2 years in advance. 

Mr. Mason. But was the Communist Party active in advocating 
his candidacy ? 

Mr. O'Shea. It was the Communist Part}' actually elected him. 
The Communist Party machine within the trade-union movement and 



UX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7941 

the labor political field that Avere instrumental in actually putting 
Quill over, 

Mr. Masox. It was also true of the Transport Union, wasn't it? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, yes. That is a Conmiunist-controlled union. 

The Chairman. Now, to w'hat extent is a member of the party 
subject to party discipline — you yourself testified that you were ap- 
pointed by representatives of the Communist Party when you became 
presideiU of this union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

The Chairman. And that you relinquished that position upon in- 
structions from the same authority. Does that degree of discipline 
obtain with reference to all members of the party? 

Mr, O'Shea. With the exception, of course, of new members. They 
are a little elastic as far as the rules are concerned. They consider 
they are not sufficiently developed, and they will allow a certain 
amount of give and take, but for those who are considered a year or 
2 in the party, after they have been stewed in discipline and brought 
up in discipline, they are considered to be politically developed. 

The Chairman. Then they have to follow the instructions of the' 
party ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Strictly. 

The Chairman. Let us assume that the party wanted information 
with reference to a certain industry. Here is a member of the party 
working in a particular industry and the party wanted to obtain in- 
formation with reference to that industry. Would it be the duty of 
the member of the party to give that information? 

Mr. O'Shea. Sure. Otherwise he ^^'ould be due for expulsion if 
he refuses to get the information. He would be expelled from the 
party. 

The Chairman, And if the Communist Party wanted the informa- 
tion to transmit it to a foreign power, then the members of the party 
would be acting as spies for the foreign power, would they not? 

Mr, O'Shea. Sure; absolutely — absolutely. 

The Chairman, On the question of sabotage, if the party's instruc- 
tions were to commit acts of sabotage to stop the shipment of any 
vital miuiitions of war material or anything of that sort, would it 
be the duties of the members of the party to carry out those instruc- 
tions ? 

]\Ir, O'Shea, All instructions of the party must be religiously fol- 
lowed at all times. Failure to do so means expulsion. 

The Chairman. Do you know instances where they were expelled 
for failure to follow the party's instructions? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. There were numerous cases of members who 
didn't follow the party's position. 

The Chairman, Now, is sabotage a definite part of the Communist 
program ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; absolutely. 

The Chairman. In order if it becomes necessary to commit acts of 
sabotage to accomplish some policy of the party, then it is the duty 
of the nuMubers to commit the acts of sabotage; is that correct? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. As a matter of fact I can cite you an actual 
instance that occurred in the city of New York. The present treas- 
urer of the New York local, which is approximately 35.000 strong, 
he is a responsible officer. During the threat of a partial strike in 



7942 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

1935 he was arrested for slashing tires of a taxicab on the street. He 
was tried at special sessions before three judges and convicted. He 
was an officer, one of the principal officers, of the New York local — 
the treasurer. I understand that he got approximately 60 days. It 
so happened, too, at that particular trial that the assistant clistrict 
attorney questioned him — Mr. Faber, "Was he in the Communist 
Party?" and he admitted that he was a member of the Reichstag at 
one time before coming to the United States. And that is another 
public record. That can be gotten from the court files in the special 
sessions in New York City. 

Mr. Mason. Is he a member of the Communist Party ? 
Mr. O'Shea. Absolutely, yes; a member of the Communist Party. 
I sat in Communist Party meetings with him. 

The Chairman. Now, during the time that you were a member of 
the party were you fairly active? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I happened to get fired twice in the I. R. T. and 
blackjacked once, so I think I did my share in the field. I was 2% 
years off the job for union activities— and — 

The Chairman. Did you meet with many Communist groups in 
New York? 
Mr. O'Shea. Well, yes. 

The Chairman. Did you have a fairly good idea of the type of 
people who were in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. You see you would naturallj^ contact all the 
different groups. That is the furriers and the garment workers and 
laundry workers and at conventions and all different things from time 
to time. 

The Chairman. Did you have many Irish in the Communist move- 
ment in New York? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it is growing. They have got them in the Mari- 
time Union, as a matter of fact, in the water front, and they have got 
some Irish fellows organizing. 

The Chairman. What is the appeal that is made to the Irish people? 
Mr. O'Shea. Well, that was a problem they were faced with. They 
were faced with a very serious problem dealing with the Irish. As 
you Imow they are nationalistic and extremely religious, and it was a 
question of how could they win those people over to their side. So 
the Communist Party decided, which appears in their official papers, 
that they should utilize the Irish revolutionary traditions. Of course 
everybody knows that for 600 years Ireland has been struggling for 
independence. A revolutionary situation always developed from cen- 
tury to century and the Irish race has a spirit of freedom. They felt 
at the time it would be easy to divert a national feeling to an inter- 
national channel, and it was then plans were laid to utilize the Irish 
revolutionary traditions, and that all the literature possible. Daily 
Worker, official organ of the Transport Union, should carry as much 
materiaJ that would have an international complexion ; that they had 
to be careful, too, on the national point. 

I have some material here which will show that they are utilizing 
the one particular man — individual who ha])pened to be in this coun- 
try, at one time — he went back in 1913. His name is James Con- 
nolly. As a matter of fact — as a matter of record — he established 
the Transport Workers Union of Ireland and he was one of the leaders 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7943 

ill the rebellion in 191G with De Valera ; and for his part in the lebel- 
lion, he was executed. 

Now, Connolly, of course, has an international outlook besides his 
nationalistic outlook. Now, De Valera's position was diti'erent to 
Connolly's, he was purely a nationalist. Now, you notice here when 
they present this Irish stuff they deal specifically with Connolly — 
nothino- else, nobody else — no other leader. 

I show you in the Transport Workers Indletin of May 1938, we tind 
a caption: "James Connolly, He Gave His Life in the Strujigle for 
Economic and National Freedom.'' It shows his picture there; deals 
with the Avhole tiling. And tlie Daily Worker of May 14, 1939, we 
find a*iain James Connolly: "Irish Urged to Follow Connolly's Lead 
in Fioht Against Anti-Semitism." 

The Chairman. Was that one of their main appeals, to (ight anti- 
Semitism ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, they were appealing in this instance to the Irish 
to pull them closer to themselves. They were going to use any issue, 
anti-Semitism, the negro question — any question as a matter of fact. 
The anti-Semitic question — it wasn't that they were interested in the 
Jewish race but to use that issue to bring the Irish closer to themselves. 

Now, again in the Party Organizer issued by the central committee 
of the Communist Party, ApvU 1938, the Daily Worker— this is an 
actual letter written to the Daily Worker which is incorporated in 
the Party Builder. It will just show in this particular incident of 
how the Irish revolutionary traditions were used to recruit this man 
in the Communist Party. This is his letter : 

In transportation we have a difficult task. Ninety percent of tlie workers are 
Irish. However in 1934 we had four members in the industry, and now we 
have a unit in every shop in transportation. The biggest problem in trans- 
lortation is "red baiting." There is the Catholic Church which sends its 
priests into the precincts to help in the "red baiting," and at tlic present time 
they are forming every type of organization — the Holy Name, the Knights of 
Columbus, et cetera. 

Communists have been in the front ranks in building the transportation 
union. P>ut the most serious shortcoming is that there are not yet enough 
Comnuniists among the transportation workers to fight this "red l>aiting" the 
way it's got to be fought. 

I myself recruited 20 members. I think the Daily Worker gave me the first 
break, especially the Sunday Worker. I gave them out to some of the men, 
and after a wliile I was asked why I did not bring them the Daily Worker 
and Sunday Worker regularly. I did so, and I also got pamphlets to them, 
especially the one by our great revolutionary Irishman, James Connolly. 

I have no more to say. I am not a spealver. The only thing I can do is 
carry on the truth. 

And in this instance you see the effect of Connolly's pro])aganda 
used in that particular sho]:> for this man. Noav, again every effort 
is made to involve the Irish revohitionary situation. As a matter 
of fact a ]ncture was made in Ireland showing the Black and Tans 
and the Irish fighting during that struggle before the Free State 
was established, and i» was shown in the Transport Workers Union 
headquarters. And this is the heading: "Dawn Over Ireland." Now, 
the purpose of that was to bring as many Irish into the hall, even 
peo]ile not mixed up in the Transport Union, but to get them into 
the influence of the party. 

The Chaikmax. In other words, whatever appeal is most effective 
to recruit members they use it regardless of the race. I mean, if a 

949.31— iO— vol. 1.3 18 



7944 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

man happens to be in a particular race and there is a certain appeal 
that is most effective with him, they use that appeal, is that correct? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; but of course they api:»ly a revolutionary line 
if possible. 

Now, here is another excer]3t of a mass meeting of I. R. A. clubs 
of greater New York: "To supj^ort the Irish Republican Army in 
their fight for Irish freedom. The principal speaker will be Gen- 
eral Sean Russell, Chief of Stalf, I. R. A., Thursday, June loth, at 
the T. W. U. Hall at 153 West 64th Street." Now, the hall was 
given free without consulting the membership, whether it should be 
given or not. Sean Russell — the idea was that they know that the 
Clan-Na-Gael and the I. R. A. clubs are an organization in this 
country which are purely Irish national movements, and they are 
trying to work in amongst the membership to get them into the 
party. 

Many of them have military training already, and can be useful 
for the revolution. 

The Chairman. Now, did vou come in contact witli the communist 
effort in the maritime industry in New York while you were active 
in the Transport Workers Union? Did you come in contact with 
the same movement in the maritime industry? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes; I recall having a long conversation with Roy 
Hudson at the time we had the meeting in Amter's home. After 
the session was over the question came u]) and he discussed the 
Maritime Union and the position on the west coast, and, in fact, 
he went into details where he himself had to be taken to Russia to 
be convinced of the communist set-up. 

The Chairman. Had to be taken to Russia? 

Mr. O'Shea. Taken to Russia before he could accept the Com- 
munist line in the early days. In other words, he was trying to 
convince the men that, if certain things developed in the Commvmist 
Party, "we will forget them for the time being, everything comes 
all right." Of course, they were trying to settle the battle that was 
on at the time — this faction fight. He discussed, of course, the or- 
ganization — the strength of the organization and how well they 
were entrenched and the importance, of course, of having collabora- 
tion between the forces. 

In other words, transport and maritime. I recall Rose Wortis 
made a statement at a meeting which I attended — it would be around 
1935 when we were attending. We were independei&t at the time. 
We were attending the Trade Union Unity Council meeting and we 
made a report on organization. 

The Chairman. Who is that? 

Mr. O'Shea. We made a report to the Communist Party 

The Chairman. Roy Hudson did? 

Mr. O'Shea. We did, giving our stand in the trade-union field — 
that is the transport field. So Rose Wortis asked for a report of 
the shops, barns, and transportation position and how we were for 
a strike. She went on to explain a contract was coming up for 
the Maritime Union and the way it was possible to s,ynchronize the 
two — it would be a good job. In other words, the transport situation 
strike and maritime strike pulled at the same time would probably 
liavo created, as they believed, a situation that happened on the wes't 



UN-AMERICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7945 

coast — paralyze the whole eastern seaboard — involve as many as 
j)ossible other groups. 

The Chaihman. What meeting was it in which Roy Hudson de- 
scribed the control that the Communist Party was exercising over 
the maritime uni(m? 

Mr. O'Shea. That was at Amter's home at the time we had this 
battle — the battle was on. 

Tlio CiiAiKMAN. At Amter's home? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. 

The Chairman. Israel Amter's home? 

]\lr. O'Shea. Yes, sir: William Dunn was at the meeting and 
all the leading members of the committee of the Communist Party. 

The Chaikmax. Well, did you have any other contacts that gave 
you information as to the progress of communistic control over the 
Maritime Union? 

My. 0'She.\. Well, from time to time I happened to run across 
some of the fraction members or the active members in the concen- 
tration unit on the waterfront and they naturally would give you 
reports of how things were going in the shipping line, but of course 
at that time, as I say, my whole mind was more or less centered on 
the transit situation. We had a 24-hour job there. 

The Chairman. But from the reports that you heard from fac- 
tion members who were working on tlie waterfront and from Roy 
Hudson's report, what picture did you get of the progress of the 
Connmmists in the maritime union? 

Mr. O'Shea. That they were strong, and exceptionally strong, and 
it would be only a question of time when it was in the transport and 
utilities — in the maritime, that a general strike could be brought 
about very simply and. of course, a foundation for a complete change 
in the Government. In other words, a revolutionary situation could 
be developed from a strike. 

Tb.e Chairman. What contact did you have with any of the 
officials in the Radio, Electrical, and Machine Woi-kers Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, Matles. as I say, attended all the meetings. He 
is the director. He is the Edgar Bergen, in other words, of the Radio 
and Electrical Workers. 

The Chairman. What position does he occupy? 

Ml. O'Shea. Director. 

The Chairman. And you attended fi-action meetings of the Com- 
munist Partv with him? 

Mr. 0'She.\. Oh, yes. 

Tb.e Chairman. When he was present ? 

IVIr. O'Shea. When he was — prior to the time he went to the 
machinists — the time when he was in the machinists and later. 

The Chairman. Did he discuss at these meetings the progress that 
the Conununists were making in the Radio and Electrical Union? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. Yes ; it was an understood thing. As a matter of fact 
the prin('ii)al officer of his grouj), for instance, in New York City, the 
director in Xew York City is a man by the name of Lustig. Now. 
Lustig was at one time organizer in the Bronx, one of the biggest 
sections, 1,.500 Conununists. ])rior to going in and becoming a func- 
tionary in the trade-union field. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean section organizer for the Comnninist 
Partv? 



7946 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. O'Shea. Section organizer for the Communist Party. And 
he had the official position — I think you will find that in the public 
records — and he is now regional director of New York. And there 
was another man. James Matles, and Lustig. and Rivers. Now, 
Rivers is in the machinists todav, had control of Brooklvn. His 
office was around Borough Hall and he handled all of the groups in 
that territory — all the machine shops. 

Tlie Chairman. Was he a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, yes: they are very important members. They 
are members of the district committee in New York. 

The Chairman. What did you leain with reference to your con- 
versations, with these men, the leaders in the Radio and Electrical 
Union, with reference to Communist control of that union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it w^as always understood that they were really 
more left than Ave were. In other words, they had better party or- 
ganization witliin the ranks — better developed elements. 

The Chairman. What did the party derive from the control of 
that union? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, you see they are already working in the ma- 
chine shops, you see, and the machine industry is connected with steel. 
Well, if you tie up and paralyze the machinist end of the thing, steel 
is useless because the rough product has to be machined Ijefore it is 
manufactured. 

The Chairman. What other unions, while you were active in the 
Trail sport Workers Union, did the}^ control? 

Mr. O'Shea. They controlled the laundry workers union. There 
were so many of them. Their actual control, where the function- 
aries were completely Communist, is that what you mean ? 

The Chairman. Where they had positions of leadership similar to 
the Transport Workers Union that you learned from contact with 
the leaders in fraction meetings. Take the furriers union. 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, yes ; the furriers. 

The Chairman. Is that controlled by the Communists ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, it was understood to be controlled. Irving- 
Potash Avas considered the leader of the furriers union and Ben Gold. 

The Chairman. Both of them members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. 0'She.v. Yes; sure. 

The Chairman. Did you sit in fraction meetings witli them? 

Mr. 0'She.\. Yes, sir; I was w^ith Irving Potash in many fraction 
meetings, and James Matles, as I previously testified. They came in 
an advisory ca])acity in all fraction meetings when A\"e were going 
in the American Federation of Labor. 

The Chairman. AVliat about the Communication Association ? Do 
you know any of the leaders? 

Mr. O'Shea. I don't know anything about them personally. I 
knew there Avas a link-up. The only uni(jns I had personal contact 
Avith was the furriers through those meetings. You see what I mean, 
the radio and metal AA-orkers. because aa'c had personal contact, and 
the utility Avorkers — that is. the utilities in New York — Edison. 

The Chairman. What leaders did they have in the utilities? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, they had a fraction but the fraction at the 
time wasn't very strong. I recall in either 1934 or 1935, there was a 
strike threat called there, and a number of men were fired. The 
men called a strike but they didn't put it into effect and we were 



UX-AMERirAX I'RDrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7947 

requested hy the C'oiuniiinist Party jiTOiips. Santo and Ilogaii and I, 
to meet those leaders at tlic headquarters and advise them to stall 
on the strike — not to force the issue until such time as they had 
stron<rer membership. 

The Ch.\ir:max. Xow. when you were active in the (^ommimist 
Party, did you keep record.s of the members of the party? 

Mr. O'SiiKA. Xo: T didn't keej) any records. 

The C'liAiii.MAX. Do you know of any records being kept? 

Mr. O'Shea. The records are always kept, you see. by the district 
or by the sections. The instructions of the party is : Shop units are 
attached to sections, and section headquarters keep the records, and 
the section ortianizer keeps the records of all the units. The unit 
organizer don't keep any records. When he is getting his stamps he 
goes to his headquarters and he gets the stamps and brings them up 
to his unit meetings, which are held once a week. Aftei- the unit 
meeting is over he takes the books and gets them stamped and returns 
the stutf back to the headquarters. 

The Chair^iax. Well, the party does keep detailed records? 

Mr. O'Shea. Oh, undoubtedly. 

The Chairmax. Of their linancial condition and membership? 

Mr. O'SriEA. They have to. because they have got to keep a record 
all the time. They wouldn't know exactly whei'e they stood. 

The Chairmax. When you ceased to be active in the Communist 
Party, what was its membership in Xew York State? Did you get 
any idea of that? 

Mr. O'Shea. I wouldn't ha\'e any idea. I could not guess any 
tigure on that. 

The Chairmax. What was the largest meeting you attended — 
strictlv Communist meeting? 

Mr. O'vShea. Well, the largest meeting that I attended was the con- 
vention in 1036 held at St. Xicholas Arena. That was the district 
convention, and the convention — I would safely say there was approx- 
imately 600 delegates. That was four delegates from each section 
and 600 delegates and it all depended on the strength of a section. 
Some sections had 1,500 members and some had 200 and some had 300. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you a delegate? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir, I was one of the bureau members fr<mi 
section 5 in the Bronx. 

Mr. Matthews. WIk) addressed that convention you just men- 
tioned? 

Mr. O'vShea. Well. Earl Browder addressed it. Hose Wortis. of 
course. I was more or less interested in her report, because she 
gave the trade union report. Quill i-eported a line on the transit 
situation, and there was a farmer — he happened to be the onh' 
man at the convention who was from the agricultural field. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Quill introduced openly? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir: o})enly introduced at the convention, yes. 
He spoke on the transit situation. As a matter of fact, I I'ecidl a 
statement he made: "That the Ti-ansport Union was to be the steam 
hammer for the transit industry, and as a steam hammer it w(»uld 
crush a mosquito and so would the Transport Union crush the barons 
of Wall Street when the time arrived.'" That was actually his quo- 
tation. 



7948 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Tlie Chairman. Do you know wliat the policy of the party has 
been since the alliance between vStalin and Hitler? Are you in a 
])osition to testify to that? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well. yes. You see. any niean^ in Connnunist phil- 
osophy — any means justifies the end. It wasn't surprisino- to those 
in the Conninniist Party to exj^ect a Stalin-Hitler pact because a 
similar situation developed in Russia in 1917 when Lenin collab- 
orated with Germany — Gennan imperialism. It was the Germans 
who really brought Lenin from Switzerland to Russia on a special 
armored train and put him in to form the revolution so as to with- 
draw their forces and send them to France in the big push of 1918. 
That situation was similar to Avhat happened in Finland. 

The Chairman. Well, do you know of your own knowledge or 
have you gained it through reliable information, and if so, what 
is the information, as to what policy the party is following since 
the alliance between Russia and Germany ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, of course, it is hard to say. As I previously 
stated, any means justifies the end. Stalin and Hitler — I wouldn't 
be surprised to see if Stalin tomorrow turned on Hitler. As a 
matter of fact, I think there is something in the wind to that eifect. 
Instructions have been issued to the various sections of the Com- 
munist International that a new phase must be put on the inter- 
national situation owing to the Swedish position, that they must now 
go on record as being opposed to Germany pushing into Sweden. 
From my own obsei-vation it looks like they are afraid Germany is 
getting too strong and they eventually may come out on top and 
turn on Stalin. 

The Chairman. Then if Stalin and Hitler break we can except 
the Communists to go back to its position of fighting fascism? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is exactly it. Reverting back to its original 
positicm. 

Mr. Matthews. At the convention at St. Nicholas Arena in 1936, 
was there a speaker named Archie Wright? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir; the farmer. He was tlie only man. They 
were always accustomed to needle workers and gaiment trades and 
all of that element 

Mr. Matthews. Did lie report on the organization of the Com- 
munist Party among the farmers in the State of New York? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. He made a report with reference to the 
united-front policy as applied to the farmers of up-State New York 
and he stated that he was able to utilize a church and minister of 
religion to ])resent the jjartys lines. In other words, take up eco- 
nomic (juestions and discuss them from a revolutionary angle. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this the Archie Wright Avho recently lead 
the milk strike in New York State? 

]\Ir. O'Shea. Yes, sir. I have seen his picture in the public press. 

INIr. Maithews. Can you identify this as a picture of Archie 
Wright. I Handing paper to the witness.] 

Mr. O'Shea. The same man. 

Mr. ISIatthews. Farmer delegate to the party convention? 

Mr. O'Shea. Farmer delegate to the party convention in 1936. 

Mr. Matthews. This is from the New York Post. Monday, August 
21, 1939. Now, on the question of the exploitation of the Irish tradi- 
tion among Irish \vorkers in the Transport Workers LTnion, of the 



rX-AMERICAN rUOPAOANDA ArTTVITIES 7949 

transit field, Mr. O'Shea. does IVIicliiu'l Quill liinisidf try to make a 
L^reat deal of his Irisli revolutionary background? 

Mr. O'SiiEA. Well, the (\)nununist Party propaiianda machine 
certainly does. They lealize, of course, as they state in their official 
papers, particularly. "AVe nuist now utilize the Irish revolutionary 
traditions." and they show, as a matter of fact, in the press — I think 
we find it in the Post and the Daily AVorker and lots of other papers. 

Mr. ^Iattiiews. I show you for example an article from tlie New 
York World Tele<>iani, June 5, 1937. Are they photographs of 
Michael Quill? [Handing ])aper to the witness.] 

Mr. O'SiiEA. Yes. sir; photograplis of Michael Quill. 

Mr. Matthews. And is this a publicity stoiy on Michael Quill 
which connects him with the fight for Irish freedom? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir; that is riglit. 

Mr. Matthews. Do 3'()u know whether or not the Connnunist 
Party has stated, or that Quill has stated, either one of them, that he 
was wounded in the Black and Tan Army in Ireland ? 

Mr. 0"Shea. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a claim which Quill makes? 

jNIr. O'Shea. It is right here in the paper. "He still limps and 
carries a cane from a Free State bullet in the left hip." 

Mr. Matthews. When was the fighting in Ireland? 

^Ir. O'Shea. The fighting in Ireland originally started at least in 
1916, the rebellion, and continued through in a small way until July 
1921 when a truce was called and 9 months later a treaty was signed 
which established the Irish Free State. That was what was known 
as the Black and Tan period. July 1921. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the end of the Black and Tan 
period Avas in 1921? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know how old Michael Quill is? 

]Mr. O'Shea. I understand he is around 32, 33, or 34. 

]Mr. Matthews. Now, I show you a photostatic copy of his pass- 
port application, the passport application of Michael Quill, in which 
he gives as his birthdate September 18, 1905. That would have 
made Quill 16 years of age, would it not? 

Mr. CShea. Sixteen years of age, that is right. 

]Mr. ]\Iatthews. Do you know wdiether or not in press publicity 
statements Quill now pretends to be 4 or 5 or 6 years older? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Than this? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. In the public press I have noticed that they 
have made it particularly clear that they would put his age — advance 
it so it would link up with that period. 

Mr. Matthews. You were in the Black and Tan Army j^ourself ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. I served through practically the whole 
movement from 1917 to 1924. 

Mr. Matthews. You didn't meet Quill in the ranks? 

Mr. O'Shea. No; I never met Quill. 

iVIr. Mattheavs. In Ireland? 

Mr. O'ShExV. No; I never met Quill. As a matter of fact the 
I. K. A. at that particular time, in 1918, it became the I. R. A. Previ- 
ously it was the Irish Volunteers, but in 1918 they formed the Irish 
Republican Army of the groups of Irish Volunteers and at that time 



7950 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

tliey established a constitution and held conventions eA'ery 2 years; 
and written into the constitution was that to become a member of 
the Irish Republican Army it was necessary to be at least 18 years 
of 'dge — wouldn't be accepted otherwise. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Do you happen to know of your own knowledge 
whether Quill was injured in the rebellion? 

Mr. O'Shea. Naturally, when the union started originally I made 
a question "where he came from and who he was,'' and we discussed 
the Irish situation and I asked him at one time — his picture appeared 
in the bulletin. It was after the Cole case in New York, and he 
brought his passport in to show his picture — what he looked like — 
the changes that took place, and I glanced at his passport and I saw his 
age at the time and I said, "Mike, you were not connected with the 
movement; you couldn't possibly have been." And he said, "No; I 
wasn't." So I said, "Wliat happened to your hip?" "Well," he said, 
"that was from infancy I have that." And he said, "I have just come 
back from Vienna. I was with Lorenz, the bloodless surgeon." It 
was a hip dislocation and he went to Vienna to have it put back in 
position. Well, of course, the party, as I say, is using Quill as a 
Charlie McCarthy — playing him up. 

The Chairman. You have testified about the leaders. What about 
the rank and file in the Transport AVorkers Union? What percentage 
of the rank and file are members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I would safely say that the Communist struc- 
ture — you see it is not like a bona fide union. New York, for instance, 
has a local of 37,000 or 40,000 members. One local is subdivided into 
150 sections. Now, those sections, the most of the section chairmen, 
and the section secretaries are party members. You see, the most of 
the executives which come from this section group are, I would say, 
two-thirds ])arty members and the executive board of the local is 90 
percent. The international board is all 100 percent party controlled. 

The l^arty does not believe, of course, in big figures. They feel that 
if they can hold the key positions and with a number of men on 
the floor, a small organization of active men are much more effective 
than a big group that is hard to handle. 

Mr. Masox. How many in the Transport Workers' Union in New 
York? 

Mr. O'Shea. They say about 90,000. I say about 35,000 would be the 
actual inuTiber. They give a figure of 90,000 but I Avould say 35,000. 

Mr. Mason. How many would be Communists in the rank and file? 

Mr. O'Shea. I would safely say if you eliminate the — take the sec- 
tion leaders and executive officers, I would say, not 5 percent of the 
whole; but they have absolutely a strangle hold on the organization, 
Tliey have a closed shop 

Mr. Mason. The Communist Party has only about 5 percent of the 
rank and file members in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. O'Shea. And control 

Mr. Mason. And it has almost 90 percent of the leadership in the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. O'Shea. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. You have noticed the close proximity of Alaska to 
the Soviet Union and other centers of Europe, have you not? 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes, sir. 



UX-AMERICAN PltOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 795^ 

Mr. jNIatthews. I "will ask you if you can identify the Transport 
"Workers* Bulletin foi- W'V.yf IHandinjr paper to the witness.] 

Mr. O'Shea. Yes. sir; that is the otHcial or<ian. 

Mr. Matfiiews. On [)a^e 4 of this bulletin there appears a picture 
of Ervin H. Hill : 

Erviii H. Hill. Traiisiunt ^^■(H■k^"l•s' delegate from .luneaii. Alaska. T. W. U. 
Alaskan Idcai lias closed shop eoniracts and has organized "everytliiiifi <>'i wlieel.s" 
ill .Juiirau. 

Do you have any information that bears upon the Alaskan situation? 

Mr. O'IShea. Well. I realize, as anybody who was ever connected with 
the Communist Party, the importance of such a position, as Com- 
munists and internationalists. They are subservient to Russia and 
holding a key position which in my estimation is a key position w^itli 
another country, which is dcmiinated by this same force. It is ground- 
Mork ])repai-ation. Its transportation is to be turned over at the 
psychological moment if in the event of difficulties arising between the 
United States and Russia. For instance, I don't think they would be 
worrying about the Xa vy in the Pacific Ocean or Atlantic. They would 
come through Alaska which is the shortest way in, particularly after 
having established a base. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. O'Shea, is the Communist Party in control of the 
transport up in Alaska the same as in New York? 

Mr. O'Shea. No question about that. 

Mr. Mason. AVhen did they start to make inroads in the Transj)ort 
Union up in Alaska? What year? 

Mr. O'Shea. Well, I couldn't give you the actual date on that ques- 
tion. I know that they have control now. When it actually started in 
my time, there was no organization there. We had no official organi- 
zation there, you see, but I know that the party has used forces like 
in Frisco and other places — local section organizers and party members 
to do organizational work for them. 

Mr. Mason. As I understand it, it is your opinion that the main 
reason for those inroads up in Alaska in the Transport Union is to 
carr}' on a campaign of sabotage, if this country should ever get into 
any sort of misunderstanding wuth the Soviet Government? 

^Ir. O'Shea. No question about it. 

Mr. Mason. Because of the proximity to the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Sure. For instance, in Norway during the invasion 
of Russia they had the groundwork prepared. As a matter of fact, 
they had American trucks innnediately they landed — seized them on 
the docks and used them and pushed their army right ahead. Trans- 
portation in warfare is an important factor if you can get control of 
it at the psychological moment. If you can't, and the communica- 
tion is destroyed, it isn't easy to move an armed force. So that is 
the importance of transportation from a revolutionary point of view. 

Mr. Mahiiews. Who is the general counsel for the Transporta- 
tion Workers Union ? 

Mr. O'Shea. Harry Sacher. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether he is a member of the Com- 
munist Party or not? 

^Ir. O'Shea. Yes. sir: he is a member of the Conununist Party. I 
never actually sat in meetings Avith him, but from discussions witii 



7952 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

him — he handled a case for me in court and I discussed the union, 
jwlicy and everything with him. 

Mr, Matthews. I show you two pages from the Daily Worker, 
one of March 8— March 3, 1938. and the other, November 13, 1937. I 
ask these be introduced as exhibits. 

The Chairman. They are received. 

(The papers referred to by Mr. Matthews were marked "O'Shea 
Exhibits Nos. 21 and 22," and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Harry Sacher appears as a lecturer at the Work- 
ers' School of the Communist Party in New York City in both of 
these exhibits? 

The Chairman. Attorney for the Transport Workers Union? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Mr. Matthews. We have another witness. 

TESTIMONY OF E. C. DAVISON 

The Chairman. Will you hold up your right hand, please. Do 
you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Davison. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Your name, please? 

Mr. Davison. Emmett C. Davison, general secretary-treasurer of 
the International Association of Machinists. 

Mr. Matthews. You spell your name D-a-v-i-s-o-n? 

Mr. Davison. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Davison, have you heard the testimony of Mr. 
Thomas O'Shea. Yes, sir; I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you heard all of it? 

ISIr. Davison. Not all of it. I came in possibly 15 or 20 minutes 
after he had been speaking. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did you hear the portion of his testimony which 
dealt with the affiliation of the Transport Workers Union with the 
International Association of Machinists? 

Mr. Davison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What have you to say about that testimony ? Will 
you state briefly? 

Mr. Davison. Briefly, his testimony was cori'ect in that the Inter- 
national Association of Machinists took the Transport Workers in 
in 1935 as a result of a conference between their representatives and 
the executive counsel of the International Association of Machinists. 

He possibly did not lead up to the things that lead up to this 
amalgamation which he knew nothing whatever of. 

Mr. Matthews. But insofar as you heard his testimony, insofar 
as he testified? 

Mr, Davison. Yes, sii'; I think it is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. You can verify that as correct? 

Mr. Davison, Yes, sir, 

Mv. Matthews. What do you have in the way of information 
about the Jamesi Matles who was a party to these negotiations? 

Mr. Davison, James Matles came to us with a group in 1935, in 
the early part of 1935, as a representative of the Allied Metal 
Mechanics, which at that time, as was stated, was an independent 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7953 

jjfoup coniposcd of men enijjloypcl in niacliino sliops iuul things of 
tliiit nature. 

The Radio and Electrical Workers — he claimed that he represented 
a number of them and the orpuiizsition, I tliink, was known as the 
Allied Metal Association and Foundry Workers — some such ori^aui- 
zation as that, but he came to us in attendance at a meeting of our 
executive council in company with Mr. Quill, Mr. Lustig, Mr. Rivers, 
and Mr. Connolly. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Eugene Connolly? 

Mr. Daatsox. Yes, sir. I am trying to think of several other names. 
There were several there, possibly, who my memory don't recall. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what have you discovered subsequently with 
reference to the political character of these men and their unions? 

Mr. Davison. Well, when they appeared to us we presented them with 
our constitution, with the statement and a copy of a circular in which 
we have taken the position in 1925 tliat no Communist can be a 
member of the International Association of Machinists, and we 
have expelled quite a number. And they stated to us that they were 
not Comnuniists ; that they had two or three of them who had been 
Communists but because of some ti'eatnient they received inside they 
were now against the Communists, and so forth. That gave them 
the ground work. They denied being Communists. In fact they 
swore that they were not. Then they were presented with our con- 
stitution with the information that if we took them into our organi- 
zation, in the amalgamation, they would have to agree to take such 
members as they then had and affiliate them with what ever trade 
or calling that particular group belonged to properly, the proper 
time. The answer to that was that there was an agitation gonig on 
for an independent luiion among the transport workers. We had 
some controversies over there in one of the power houses — with the 
machinists over there who were members of other local lodges and 
they assumed the protection of these men and they agreed to the 
proposition of segregation of the groups into the Amalgamated 
Street Railways — the helpers organizations of different types. 

They claimed then to have a membership. I think it was 12.000. 
When we made our investigation we found that there were less than 
6,000. But connected with the New York group were the groups in 
Philadelphia, in Ohio, and several other places that they supposedly 
represented, which represented a verv small number of men. 

They were with us, I think, about a year and then we discovered 
that Matles, who was on our staff, whicli was part of the agreement, 
was taking applications supposedly for the International Associa- 
tion of Machinists on machinist application blanks in New York. 
New Jersey, from the employes of the Worthington Pump Co. and 
turning them into a C. I. O. organization instead of the machinists. 

We then made an investigation and sent an auditor in, which 
gave us considerable trouble, and fianlly we ran into court and got 
in their liead(iuarters in New York and New Jersey and found there 
w^as about $900 collected through applications, these people thinking 
they were going into the machinists organizaticm and found tliem- 
selves in the C. I. O. We never recovered a great deal of the monev. 
They left us owing us about $13,000— between $13,000 and $14,000 
in the delayed payment of per capita tax, which they were excusing 



7954 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

themselves by virtue of the fact that they were an unorganized group 
and they depended on us to work the whole situation out. 

Mr. Matthews. Let me get this straightened out. Do you refer 
to the Transport Workers Union or tlie United Electriral, Kadio and 
Machine Workers? 

Mr. Davison. I mean the wliole group. AA'hen we dealt with them 
they were all in one grou]). 

Mr. Matthews. And they left togetlier? 

Mr. Davison. They all left together: yes. They joined or went 
out of the International ^Association of Machinists and we were told 
that they had goue with the C I. O. — not all of the individual mem- 
bers. Numbers of them stayed with us and are still with us. That is 
the mechanics — the machinists except in the radio workers. They 
were then forced into the C. I. O. We notified all of the locals that 
had gone with the C. I. O. what our laws were in reference to the 
pi-otection of the individual, recovery of property, and so forth, but 
as Ave got into it we found that that was ])laying their game. They 
wanted publicity and we just decided to abandon the whole proposi- 
tion and let it stand as it was. because we were rather ])leased with 
the fact that all of this grou}), after we discovered they were Connnu- 
uists. had left our organization in a group, like they came in. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, would these Communists in such a union be 
employed in powerhouses? 

Mr. Davison. Oh. yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In airplane factories? 

Mr. Davison. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In transportation? 

Mr. Davison. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In navy yards? 

Mr. Davison. Not to any great extent in navy yards except as 
individuals, because we were a little bit too strong in the navv yards 
to let them in, but there are some. I suppose in the luivy yards, as 
individuals, but not as locals. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have some documents or exliibits that you 
could supply the connnittee with 

Mr. Davison. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. To illustrate 

Mr. Davison. I have the I'ecords of some of these men in our 
organization whose names have been referred to here. One in that 
grou}) which we would not agree to take in was Stephen Rubicky. 
He was expelled for being a member of the Connnuuist Party, and 
then he furnished us with a statement stating that he was not and 
would not become a member of the Connnunist Party, and so forth. 
He was reinstated in the machinists and later on, of course, it de- 
veloped that his words didn't meari anything. He was still a mem- 
ber although he had denied it. So he was expelled again. He was 
quite active in Lodge 1560. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you found it necessary to expel very many 
members ? 

Mr. Davison. Yes, sir. We have expelled quite a group, not only 
in New York but up in Minnesota. 

Mr. Matthews. Will vou leave these with the committee as an 
exhibit? 



ex- AMERICAN ritorACAXl )A ACTIVITIES 7955 

Mr. Davison. If I can oet tlioni h:\ck. T may need them. We are 
havin<r u convention veiy shortly. 

ISIr. Matthfavs. I ask this be marked as an exliibit and we will 
make a copy of it. 

The CirATinrAN. And retni-n it to him. 

(The docninent referred to was marked "Davison exhibit No. 1," 
and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Davison. Now a letter from Andrew Overgaard, wdio was one 
of the men — which was one of the names mentioned here. That 
was given to our executive council on February 6, 1936. He had 
previously been expelled from the machinists in Pittsburgh for 
beino- an active member of the Communists, and he together with 
Hathaway, who is now the editor, I believe, of the Daily Worker, 
was expelled up in iVIinnesota. But on February 6, 1936, Overgaard 
wrote this letter : 

February 6, 1936. 
To the KxixurivE Corxcir, ok thk Intp:i!xatioxal Association of Machinists. 

Dhak 8ii!s and Brothers : I hereby wish to make applicatioa for reinstate- 
ment into the International Associations of Machinists. 

Since my expulsion from the International Association of Machinists. I have 
done all in my power to spread the spirit of unionism among the machinists 
and metal workers. I have been an active member of the independent metal 
workers' organization since 192U. F^ir the past year, I worked as secretary of 
the Connecticut district of the Federation of Metal and Allied Unions. 

I wish to state to the executive council that durinfj; the past f(>w years. I 
have realized, more than ever before, that only one united organization of 
machinists and metal workers can bring about decent working conditions in 
our industry. Due to this realization, I am not only in agreement with the 
decisions of our general executive board and the various locals to amalgamate 
with the International Association of Machinists, but I have been advocating 
full support for such step since the time our convention and General Executive 
Board decided to labor for such amalgamation. 

Upon being reinstated into the International Association of Machinists and 
upon the amalgamation becoming effective, it is in good faith that I pledge 
myself to work loyally for the International A.ssociation of Machinists and live 
up to its constitution and bylaws. 

I wish to declare that I have no other intentions in making this statement 
but to do my share to bring al)out a powerful International Association of 
ilachinists in the industry. 
Sincerely yours, 

Andrew Ovekgaard. 

All the time he was working witli this group. 

IVIr. Mattiifavs. Do you know anything about whether Andrew 
Overgaard went to Russia as a delegate of the Red International 
Labor Union? 

Mr. Davison. From my personal knowledge I only know from the 
records that have been liuilt in our organization of that visit lie made. 
This was the trial that we gave him in the first instance. I don't 
know that. 

^Ir. Mattiifavs. And was Clarence Hathaway also expelled from 
your union in Minnesota? 

Mr, Davison. Yes, sir. That happened in 1925. 

Mr. Matthews. On the ground of being a Communist? 

Mr. Davison. A Communist ; yes. At that time, in 1925 and 1926 
and along in that period we Avere engaged in quite a battle with the 
Connnuni.sts in Northwest United States and in Canada. And we 
were doing all in our power to eliminate this "boring from within," 
vrhidi at that time was rather prevalent in these unions. We sue- 



7956 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

ceeded, I think, very well in northwest Canada when they developed 
O. B. U. 

At Winnipeg, at a later period when onr conventions were in 
session, we took up this whole (question on the trial of expelling a 
group of men there; and then decided to notify the entire membership 
that no Communist could become a member of the International 
Association of Machinists, and that if one was found and proven, he 
would be expelled. And we have followed that course ever since. 

I have a document here that may be of some interest in furnishing 
« list of tlie officers of these unions that were taken over by our asso- 
ciation, and it later developed in this circular we issued on the Com- 
munist Party. And at that time they were going under a different 
name like a "Trade Union Unity League," and "Edncational Bureau" 
of some description. They had about as many names as I suppose 
they could coin. A list of these lodges in Philadelphia and New 
York, Brooklyn, Xewark, together with the notices we sent them with 
leference to turning over the property and so forth to the organi- 
zation. 

Mr. Matthews. We appreciate these documents, Mr. Davison. 

Mr. Davison. I have a number of others that I have referred to 
and the reasons for their expulsion. 

Mr. Matthews. That is all for today. 

The Chairman. Very well. We will meet tomorrow morning at 
10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon at 4:45 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 
10 a. m., Wednesday, April 24, 1940.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



WEDNESDAY. APRIL 24, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman), 
presiding. 

Tlie Chairman. The committee will come to order. The Chair 
announces a subcommittee composed of the chairman, the gentleman 
from Xew Mexico, Mr. Dempsey, and the gentleman from New Jer- 
sey. Mr. Thomas. Let us proceed, gentlemen. 

Mr. Matthews. Our first witness is Fred M. Howe. 

TESTIMONY OF FRED M. HOWE. SECRETARY. LOCAL 2, AMERICAN 
RADIO TELEGRAPHISTS' ASSOCIATION 

The Chairman. Please rise and hold up your right hand. Do you 
solemnh' swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God I 

Mr. Howe. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Your name is Fred Howe? 

]Mr. Howe. My name is Fred M. Howe. 

The Chairman. Will you speak as distinctly as possible so we may 
hear you. 

Mr. Matfhews. Mr. Howe, where were you born? 

Mr. Howe. In the State of New Hampshire. 

Mr. Matthews. When ? 

:Mr. Howe. In the year 1888. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your profession or occupation, Mr. Howe ? 

Mr. Howe. By profession I am a radio operator employed on ships. 

Mr. Mattheavs. How long have you been a radio operator? 

Mr. Howe. I learned the profession in 1918 in the Army. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that in the Signal Corps of the Army? 

]Mr. Howe. It was. 

Ml-. Matthews. What was the first union organization in the field 
of your profession ? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I think the first one was referred to as the 
U. R. T. A. — United Radio Telegraphers' Association. 

Mr. Matthews. When was that founded? 

Mr. Howe. That was founded shortly after the World War. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you a member of that organization? 

Mr. Howe. No ; I was not. 

7957 



7958 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. What was the first union in your field with which 
you were associated? 

Mr. Howe. The first union that I was affiliated with was the 
American Radio Association. 

Mr. Mattheavs. When was that organized ? 

Mr. Howe. That was organized the I7th day of August, 1931. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you become a member of that union at once? 

Mr. Howe. I was a charter member and was there the first night 
it was organized. 

Mr. Matthews. Where was it organized? 

Mr. Howe. In New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the subsequent development which led 
to the abandonment of that union and the setting up of the next one, 
if there was some transition ? 

Mr. Howe. We called the association the American Radio Associa- 
tion. That was later changed to the American Radio Telegraphists' 
Association. 

Mr. Matthews. And is that known or was that known by the 
initials A. R. T. A.? 

Mr. Howe. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. And you carried over your membership into that 
organization ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. When did that change occur? 

Mr. Howe. The exact year I have forgotten, but I think in 1932. 

Mr. Matthews. And is the A. R. T. A. still in existence? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What relationship does the A. R. T. A. have to 
the American Communications Association? 

Mr. Howe. That is a rather complicated question. The pai-ent 
organization is now known as the American Communications As- 
sociation. I was elected when the maritime division of that parent 
organization was known as A. R. T. A., and we have maintained 
that name of A. R. T. A., Local 2. That was not changed. 

Mr. Matthews. You say when you were elected. To what were 
you elected? 

Mr. Howe. I was elected secretary-treasurer of A. R. T, A., Local 2. 
I might say in explanation that is referred to bv some people as 
A. C.' A. Local 2. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you still in possession of that office of secre- 
tary-treasurer of Local 2 of A. R. T. A. or A. C. A. ? 

Mr. Howe. Legally, I believe that I am in possession of that office. 
Practically, I am not because I was thrown out physically by what 
we call in waterfront parlance a "goon squad," 2 months after I 
Avas elected to office. 

Mr. Mattheavs. When did that occur? 

Mr. Howe. That occurred on the 6th day of February 1939. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Will you please state the nature of your profession, 
Mr. HoAve? 

]\Ir. Hoave. The nature of my profession is radio operating on 
vessels of the American merchant marine and our duties aboard 
ship are to send and receive messages and take care of the apparatus 
in case it breaks down. Those are the general duties of my profession. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7959 

Mr. Matthews. Would the radio operator on board ship be the 
one man avIio is responsible for maintaining, connection with the 
shore ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. He is the sole connnnnication officer. 

The Chairman. The chairman wants to announce that a quorum 
of the full committee is present. We will go out of the subcom- 
mittee into the full connnittee. Present: The chairman, Mr. Mason, 
Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Dempsey. Please proceed. 

Mr. ^NLvrrHEWs. Now. Mr. Howe, who are the officers of the Amer- 
ican Comnnmications Association ? 

Mr. Howe. The i)resident is Mervyn Rathborne. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you spell that? 

Mr. Howe. M-e-r-v-y-n R-a-t-li-b-o-r-n-e. And there are eight 
vice presidents, two from each division. Two from the maritime 
(liTision, two from the broadcast division, two from the telegraph 
division, and two from tlie point-to-point. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Can 3'ou give us the names of the eight vice 
presidents of the American Communications Association? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. sir. The first vice president of the maritime 
division is Roy IVle. The second vice president of the maritime 
division is James E. Croney. The first vice president of the broad- 
cast division is Lenne Old. I forget the second vice president's 
name of that division. 

Mr. Maithews. Is that Ward? 

Mr. Howe. Douglas Ward is the first vice president of the telegraph 
division. Joseph P. Selly is the second vice president. I may have 
these reversed. I have forgotten how they stand. 

-Now. Micliael Mignon is the first vice president of the point-to-point 
division. That is spelled M-i-g-n-o-n. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Roberts? 

Mr. Howe. Earnest Roberts is vice president — I have forgotten 
which division. He is one of the vice presidents but I have forgotten 
foi- Avhich division. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Taylor? 

Mr. Howe. Howard Taylor is the vice president of the point-to-point 
division. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Howard Taylor or Harold Taylor ? 

Mr. Howe. I think it is Harold Taylor. 

Mr. Matthews. Harold ? 

Mr. Howe. Harold, I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. Jordon? 

Mr. HoAVE. Chester Jordon is no longer a vice president of the A. C. 
A. He Avas first A'ice president. 

Mr. ]Mattih:avs. I think you have named the vice presidents. Now, 
yon are an official of the marine division ? 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Of flip marine division of the organization, are you 
not ( 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And are your members employed on vessels oper- 
ating to all parts of the Avorld ? 

]\Ir. HoAAE. Yes, sir. 

94031 — 40— vol. 1.3 19 



7960 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Mattiip:ws. Will you please describe briefly tlie nature of the 
equipment that you operate on board ship ? 

Mr. Howe. Each vessel of the merchant marine is equipped with a 
transmitter and a receiving set. Transmitters vary in make-up and 
type but in general there is what we call the intermediate transmitter 
and also a short-wave transmitter. 

The short-wave transmitter is you probably know, adapted for long 
distance and practically all of the passenger vessels today and many 
of the cargo and tanker vessels are equipped with short-wave apparatus 
which makes it possible for an operator at sea in any part of the world 
to comnumicate with practically any other part of the world. He 
can be off the coast of Australia and call up New York — Sidney, Aus- 
tralia, Shanghai, China, or Moscow, Russia. It is done every day on 
the majority of the vessels of the merchant marine. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what is the largest or most powerful coast 
station in the world through which a great many of these messages 
from the ships all around the world go ? 

Mr. Howe. I don't think there will be any dispute among radio op- 
erators as to the fact that WCC-AVIM at Chatham, Mass., is the best, 
the largest, and the most efficient marine coastal station in the world. 

Mr. Matthews. B^^ whom is that owned i 

Mr. Howe. It is owned by a subsidiary of the Radio Corporation 
of America. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it in constant touch with all parts of the world? 

Mr. Howe, It is in constant touch with all of the big passenger ships 
all over the w^orld. 

Mr. Matthews. "Will you please illustrate that from your own ex- 
periences as a radio operator aboard ship. 

Mr. Howe. Well, it is possible — I worked on a ship that went to 
the east coast of Africa, to Mombasa, and this ship was equipped 
with short-wave apparatus, and I was able at some time during the 
day or night, practically every day of that voyage, which lasted 
for 3 months and 20 days, to communicate directly with Chatham, 
Mass. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever have any experience aboard a ship 
that was not equipped with short wave? 

Mr. Howe. It is possible due to the fact that other ships are so 
equipped for a ship which is not equipped with short wave, to also 
work Chatham indirectly. I was off the coast of Pitcairn Island, 
and I received a message from New York, from the company's office, 
that by the way was not sent via Chatham, but was sent via KPH, 
San Francisco. It was relayed by that station to Sidney, Australia, 
and given to a British ship, which in turn gave it to me. 

I received that message only a few hours after it was filed in 
New York. I was on a rusty old cargo vessel that was very poorly 
equipped with radio apparatus. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Howe, have you ever known any Com- 
munist Party member who was employed at the Chatham, Mass., 
station about which you have been speaking? 

Mr. Howe. There was a man employed there who was one of the 
organizers of that station. He organized the men there or helped 
to organize them into the American Communications Association. 

Mr. Matthews. "V^Hiat was his name? 



UN-AMEIilCAX I'KOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 7961 

^Ir. Howe. His name, if I luive not forgotten, is Hollis O. Fair- 
child. 

]Mr. Thomas. Mr. Howe, do you know whether he is still em- 
ployed there? 

^Ir. Howe. He was discliaroed a few weeks ago due to the Neu- 
trality Act that was passed by Congress, which made it unprofitable 
for the station to employ so many men. They discharged seven men 
and Mr. Fairchild, I have learned, w^as one of those discharged. 

I know^ Mr. Fairchild Avas a Communist, is a Communist now, 
and was stationed at Chatham for a long period of time. He helped 
to organize the station. "What other work he did, I don't know. 

Mv. Matthews. Can you name some of the other coastal stations 
on the Atlantic, Pacific, and Gulf coasts of the United States? 

Mr. Howe. There are stations located all along the Atlantic coast 
from Bar Harbor, Maine, clear up through to Alaska. They are 
stationed every few miles along the coast. Some are high-powered 
stations and some are low and some are medium ;, some are good and 
some are not so good. 

The station at Bar Harbor, Maine, I believe that is where it is 
located, is owned by the Mackay Radio & Telegraph Co. 

There is one in Boston owned by the Tropical Radio. The call 
is WBF. Stations around New York Harbor — we always go by 
their call letters— WSL, WSF, WNY. And another very powerful 
station down the coast, which works ships for New York Harbor, 
is WSC, located at Tuckerton, N. J. 

There is a station in Philadelphia, WNW, privately owned by two 
men. which works ships going up the Delaware only. 

Another station in Baltimore, WMH, is owned by the city of 
Baltimore. 

The station at Norfolk, Va., is run by the Navy — NAM are the 
call letters. Stations all the way down the coast until we get to 
Miami. The station there is owned by the Tropical Radio. That 
is a subsidiary of the United Fruit Co. It is a very high-class, high- 
powered, very efficient station. There is also a station there owned 
by the Radio Corporation of America. The call letters are WOE. 

Another one on the coast of Florida is owned by the Mackay 
Radio Co. Its call letters are WMR. There is another one in New 
Orleans which call letters are WNU. Another one in Port Artluir, 
Tex., WPA, and those on the west coast, San Pedro, Calif .—KSE, 
Radio Corporation of America. KOK, Los A'jigeles, owned; bv 
Mackay. WPH, San Francisco, the Radio Coq)oration. KFS by 
Mackay. 

Station in Seattle OAvned by the city of Seattle and in the Panama 
Canal there are no privately owned stations. They are owned by 
the Navy Department. Vessels arriving or departing from the Can:il 
Zone work this particular naA^al station. 

The stations up in Alaska. I believe, are owned by the Army — 
Coast Guard Government stations. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, ]Mr. Howe, do you know whether or ]iot 
members of the A. C. A. who are also members of the Communist 
Party have gone into Government service during the past few years? 

^Tr. Howf:. Yes. T knoM- some that have gone into the Govern- 
ment service — C. A. A. — and also into the private airway companies. 



7962 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I believe these men have been sent there with a purpose. They are 
well known Communists, and there is a move on foot right now 
to have these men get into key positions in the airways radio service. 

I recall distinctly two men. One by the name of Walter Adams 
who went into a Government airways station in Kentucky. Another 
man by the name of Thomas C. Ault, a Avell-known Communist Party 
member, formerly an organizer for local 2, A. R. T. A., New York, 
a man who was arrested in Ecuador for distributing subversive 
literature. 

Mr. Maithews. Was that Communist literature? 

Mr. Howe. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And was this Ault who was arrested in Ecuador? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. He went into the Government airways 
service station at Camden, N. J., and later near Baltimore, Md. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, do I understand you, Mr. Howe, to 
say that the Connnunist Party had placed these gentlemen of theirs 
in these radio stations ? 

Mr. HoAVE. That is Avhat I said; yes. I didn't say "tlie Com- 
munist Party." 

Mr. Dempsey. Did you say "j)laced" or "encouraged" them to go 
into it? HoAv could they ]:)lace them? 

Mr. HoAVE. Well, the party itself could not place them, but they 
could request these men to go into this ]:>articular ser^ace, and know- 
ing as Ave do that they are required to do as they are ordered to do, 
Ave knoAv that they do that. 

Mr. Mattheavs. I think you meant by the Avord "placed" 

Mr. Thomas. I might haA-e used that Avord. I don't say the Avit- 
ness used it. I might haA^e used the Avord. I think Mr. Dempsey is 
correct. 

The Chaieman. That has been cleared up. I^et us proceed. 

Mr. JNIattheavs. Do you know a Ben Rosset ? 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes; I knoAv Ben Rosset very Avell. He is a Com- 
munist. He recently Avorked on the steamship Crhtohal, OAvned by 
the Panama Railroad «& Steamship Co., Avhich is a Government cor- 
poration ship running from New York to Cristobal, C. Z. 

Ben Rosset is a Avell-knoAvn Communist in local No, 2. He Avas 
employed aboard this ship until he was recently discharged. Now 
he is on another GoA^ernment-OAvned shijD named the Mormacgull, 
paid for by the Maritime Commission. 

Mr. Mattheavs. M-o-r-m-a-c-g-u-1-1? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was ]Mr. Rosset, to your knoAvledge, ever arrested 
for distributing Communist literature? 

Mr. Howe. Mr. Rosset was arrested in Lisbon, Portugal, for dis- 
tributing Communist literature and was discharged, as I understand, 
by the Export Steamship Corporation because he got in bad Avith 
the police in Lisbon. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Noav, do you knoAV whether or not any Communists 
occupy key positions on the largest and finest A^essels of the Amer- 
ican merhant marine? 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes, I knoAV that to be a fact and it is an attempt of 
the Communist Party fraction in the American Communication As- 
sociation to place good party members aboard the best of ships. 



UN-AMERIOAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7963 

Mr. Matthews. And by that you mean instruct them to get those 
positions if they can obtain thom^ 

Mr, Howe. They instruct them to get them and assist them in get- 
ting them. One man by the name of Joseph Belleza, of Portugese 
extraction, he was recently on the steamship Manhattan^ one of the 
largest American passenger vessels. He is not on there at the pres- 
ent moment, however, because the company discharged him. 

Ant)ther man by the name of Robert Kay on the Washington — 
a troublemaker of the first order and causes trouble aboard every 
ship that he goes on, 

Mr. Dempsey. Is he Communist? 

Mr. Howe, As far as I know he is well known to be such in local 
No, 2, A, R. T. A. He follows the Communist Party line on all 
occasions, 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Arthur Gobbles? 

Mr. Howe. I do, 

Mr, Matthews, Do you know what ship he is on ? 

Mr, Howe. Arthur iGrobbles has been on many ships. You would 
have to check up at the moment to find out exactly what ship he is on. 
Arthur Gobbles is slightly oil' in the upper story, as we say. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know him to be a Communist ? 

Mr. Howe, Yes, he is known to be a Communist, 

Mr, Matthews, Do you know Samuel Levin? 

Mr, Howe, Yes; I know Samuel Levin, He is radio-telephone op- 
ei'ator on the Washington, steamship Washington owned by the 
United States Lines, 

Mr, Matthews, Do you know him to be a Communist ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Mr. Gottesfeld? 

Mr. Howe. I know Jack Gottesfeld quite well. He is a trouble- 
maker and a Communist of the first order. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know what ship he is on ? 

Mr. Howe. The last I knew^ he was on the steamship President 
Roosevelt but he is not there at this time. 

Mr. JNIatthews. Do you know men on the steamship Orientel 

IMr. Howe. Yes. That has been a Communist ship for the last 2 
or 3 years. It runs to Havana, Cuba, from New York. The chief 
operator today is named Joseph de la Hunt. 

The Chairmax. Hoav do you spell that? 

Mr. Howe, d-e 1-a H-u-n-t. 

Mr, Matthews, Spelled with a capital H-u-n-t? 

Mr, How^E, That is right. 

Ml', Matthews. Do you know him to be a Communist? 

Mr. Howe. I know him to be a Communist. He always carries a 
Daily Worker in his pocket at all times and is well known in Arta 
local 2 to be a Communist, 

Before he became the chief radio officer on that vessel they had 
a man bv the name of Josepli Pearlman who was chief radio officer. 
He is well known to be a party member and a very radical Com- 
munist and a troublemaker. And I would like to say that the steam- 
ship Oriente is one of the finest class of its class in the American 
merchant marine. It is a famous excursion boat that runs between 
New York and Cuba. 

Mr, Matthews, Do you know Max Buch ? 



7964 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Howe. Max Biich is a New York radio operator, a Communist, 
and a member of the party, and also a troublemaker aboard ship. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know what ship he is on now? 

Mr. Howe. I could not say at the moment. I believe he was on 
the Monterey of the New York & Cuba ]\Iail Steamship Co. 

Mr. Thomas. I think in the case of all these ships it would be help- 
ful for the record if we also had the name of the steamship company 
at the time we oet the name of the ship. 

Mr. Howe. I w^ould like to explain that these radiomen change 
their ships quite frequently, and it is difficult to say at any particular 
moment who is on what ship. 

Mr. Thomas. My suggestion was that when you name a ship that 
you also name the company at the same time. 

Mr. Howe. I will do that. 

Mr. Matthews. You mentioned the Manhattan.. We will go back 
over the ships and you give for the record the names of the companies. 

Mr. Howe. The Manhattan is used by the United States Lines 
Steamship Co. 

Mr. Matthews. The Washington? 

Mr, Howe. That is owned by the same company. 

Mr. Matthews. Cristobal? 

Mr. Howe. The Cristobal is owned by the Panama Railroad & 
Steamsliip Co., a Government corporation. 

Mr. Matthews. The Oriente? 

Mr. Howe. That is owned by the New York & Cuba Mail Steam- 
ship Co. 

Mr, Matthews. The President Roosevelt? 

Mr. Howe. That is owned by the United States Lines Steamship 
Co. 

Mr. Matthews. The Monterey? 

Mr. Howe. The Monterey is owned by the New York & Cuba Mail. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now, do you know Howard Stroebel ? 

Mr, Howe, Howard Stroebel is a radio member — a member of 
A, R, T, A. local 2, and I believe a graduate of Columbia University — 
a Communist, 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know what ship he has been on recently? 

Mr. Howe. The last I knew he was on the American Shipper. 

Mr. Matthews. Of what line? 

Mr. Howe. The United States Lines, ^ 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Harry Schlengier ? 

Mr. Howe. Harry Schlengier is a radio operator. I believe at 
present he is employed on the steamship Aivnapella of the Standard 
Fruit Co. It runs "between New York and Honduras and Jamaica 
and other ports of the West Indies. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know :Mr. Schlengier to be a Communist? 

Mr. Howe. Mr. Schlengier told me that he had been a member 
of the party. 

It was the policy of the party a short time ago to say that their 
members are ex-members of the party. Harry Schlengier told me 
a year ago that he was such an ex-member and proceeded to dem- 
onstrate to everyone in local 2 that he was still a good party 
member by backing up the Communists when they took possession 
of A. R. T. A., Local 2, and threw out the legally elected officials of 
that organization. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7^65 

]\Ir. ^Iatthews. Do you know H. P. Jensen? 

Ml'. IIcnvE. H. P. Jensen is also a Conmninist and a ti-oublemaker. 
The last I knew he was on the steanishi]) ('iff/ of Rai/ville. That is 
also a Government-owned vessel, owned by the TTnited States Mari- 
time Commission and was running at that time for the American 
Pioneer Line. 

Ml'. Matthews. Do you know Vaetold Lamont ? 

Mr. Howe. I know him very well. He is also a Communist, a 
member of the party and the last I knew he was working on the 
steamsliip San Jutnt. That is owned by the New York & Cuba ]\Iail 
Steamship Co. The ship runs between Xew York and ports in Mexico. 
It Avas running to Puerto Rico. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask another question 
right there. On these various ships that you have named about 
what is the average number of radio operators they have on one 
of those ships? 

Mr. Howe. On cargo vessels there is always only one. On passen- 
ger vessels there are always three or more. 

Mr. Thozsias. So on the ships that you have mentioned where they 
have Conununists as radio operators, sometimes the lone operator is 
a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Howe. That is right ; yes. There are only two ships that I 
recall at the moment that have more than three operators on board. 
Those two ships are the Manhattan and the Washington. Each of 
those lias five; all of the others have three except the freight and 
tankers, and they have one. 

Mr. Mati'heavs. Do you know Mr. Santo? 

Mr. Howe. Mr. Santo is a member of the A. E. T. A.. Local 2, is a 
Communist and member of the party. The last time I saw him he 
was sitting in the radio room on the yacht Sea Cloud, owned by 
the Ambassador to Belgium. He copies and receives radiogi-ams 
sent to and fi'om the beautiful yacht Sea Cloud owned by Ambas- 
sador Davies of the L^nited States, Ambassador to Belgium. 

Mr. Thomas. How many operators would they have on that par- 
ticular yacht ? 

Mr. Howe. He was the only man I found in the radio room at the 
time. He was chief, but I iniderstand they carry three. However, 
there is no law governing the number that they carry on a yacht ; 
it is purely up to the owner. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Howe, has it been your business as an official 
of the A. R. T. X. or the American Communication Association to 
know who are Communists and who are not I 

Mr. Howe. I made it my business to find out exactly who were 
and who were not Communists and members of the party. 

Ml-. Matthews. Will you please state briefly how you are able 
to know in cases where a man does not show you his party member- 
ship book that he is a Communist? 

Mr. Howe. Well, you wouldn't need to get any inside information 
from the party itself to know exactly who they are. 

You can always tell by the way they work; by the way they work 
in the union for the party. 

The Communist Party,"^ as we all know by reading its books and 
papers and magazines, tells their members that they must get con- 
trol of all labor unions, and get into a labor union, and they work 



7966 UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

with that one object in view, to control that hibor union; doesn't 
matter how they do it. Tliey have no ethical standards whatsoever. 
If they can't do it by one means they will resort to any other 
means available, including physical force, and that is what the mem- 
bers of the international executive board of A. C. A. used in the 
case of A. R. T. A., Local 2. 

You cannot attend a membership meeting, as I attended them for 
several years, without knowing exactly who these men are, because 
they follow what we all know to be the party line. We could always 
anticipate from one week to the other exactly what was coming up at 
the next meeting because we knew the party line, ancl we knew how 
they would line up. We could look over the meeting, and if we 
knew every man in there we could tell exactly how the vote was 
going to come out. 

We anticipated every meeting. In addition to that, we also talked 
to members who do know that these men are members of the party. 
We receive personal letters. I have several here today that I would 
like to read from to prove that some of the higher officials of the 
American Conununications Association are members of the Com^ 
munist Party and have been for years. And they are in there for 
the sole purpose of getting control of conununications and in time 
of war sew them up, tie them up, and help the party take over the 
United States and the industries in the United States and establish 
a soviet system. We do know who the Communists are in A. C. A., 
and everybody — every member there who has any intelligence — knows 
exactly who they are. 

Mr.' Matthews. Who are the A. C. A. delegates in New York? 

Mr. Howe. What they call the international organizer. It is a 
high-sounding name, but the job is held by Murray Winnocur. He 
is now called the international organizer, and the reason he is 
so called is because he is being paid by what they call the international 
office of the A. C, A. He has a brother by the name of Jacob, who 
is also a delegate, or has been a delegate, and who attacked me physi- 
cally on the street here last August and called me all kinds of insult- 
ing names, which he didn't get by with, by the way, and he is a 
delegate, and has been acting secretary of the Boston office of the 
marine division of A. C. A., and for the last 2 weeks he has been 
acting secretary of the New York office, marine division, of A. C. A, 

These two men are Communists ; members of the Communist Party, 
and they are vicious, and they will stop at nothing to accomplish 
their ends — a sit-down strike or slugging if necessary. 

Mr. INIatthews. Do' you know who the secretary of local 4 in 
Baltimore is? 

Mr. Howe. The secretary of local 4 in Baltimore is Paul Roth- 
man, a well-known member of the party — has been for years. He 
has appeared here in Washington at various times before govern- 
mental committees — made himself ridiculous by his actions, and I 
believe that he has engaged in illegal activities in connection with 
W. P. A. in Baltimore, 

Mr. Matthews. Will you explain, please, what those activities were? 

Mr. Howe. He wrote me letters 2 years ago to send down as many 
of our unemployed members as we could spare to the city of Balti- 
more to go on W. P. A. I didn't know what the racket was. They 
were sent down. I later learned that they were put on W. P. A., I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7967 

lielieve contrary to law. T understood later that the rnan had to 
.^Nvear that he quit a shij) in Baltimore. If he had quit a ship in 
lialtiniore the W. P. A. allowed liini to go on their projects there, 
hut these men tliat were sent down from New York at Rothman's 
leciucst. did not quit ships in Baltimore — not witliin recent years. I 
think that should be invest ioated by somebody that is interested. 

]Mr. Matthews. Do yon know who the secretary of local 3 in 
San Francisco is? 

]Mr. Howe. Secretary of local 3 in San Francisco is R. M. Han- 
sen. He is a yoiui^ fellow and is a very vicious one and an nnrea- 
sonable Communist. He is very dangerous to the Ainerican Mer- 
chant iVIarine because from his point of view the shipowner and the 
<TOvernm(nit and everyone in the world is wrong btit Hansen is right. 
He Uses Harry Bridges longshoremen and as many of the other 
maritime crafts as possible to gain his ends. He signs the most 
ridiculous agreements that could be imagined. They contain every- 
tliing except taking the ships over. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated he was a Communist, did you? 

Mr. How^E. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the secretary of local 6 in 
Seattle. Wash., is? ' 

Mr. Howe. Secretary of local 6 is T. J. Van Erman, a Communist, 
member of the party. He has been on the C. I. O. pay roll as an or- 
ganizer in Seattle and also in Alaska. He has been an organizer 
in the Gulf of Mexico and is mixed itp in all kinds of C. I. O.-com- 
munism as a radical organizer. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who is secretary of local 1 in Bos- 
ton ( 

Mr. HoAVE. The secretary of local 1 in Boston doesn't exist any 
more because of the fact that local 1 was taken over by local 2 iii 
New York. The secretary of local 1 was Richard J. Golden. He 
resigned under fire of the Communists. The Communists went to 
Boston, a full automobile load of them. They put Golden on the 
si)ot and told him to resign or they would come down there and 
take over the same as they took over local 2. Golden was forced out 
and the New York local took over local 1 in Boston w^ithout any 
semblance of legality M-hatsoever. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the secretary of local 20 in 
Cleveland is? 

Mr. Howe. The secretary of local 20 in Cleveland — his name was 
Leonard Anderson. I don't believe he is there any more. He w^as 
there a year or so ago. He was a well-known Communist and I 
might say he succeeded a man by the name of William Hathaway, 
wlio was killed in Spain fighting for Spanish democracy. 

Mr. IMattheavs. Do you know Kenneth Goss? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. Kenneth Goss was a member of local 1, A. C. A.. 
in Boston, and he was employed on a fish trawler. I met Mr. Goss 
in Boston last July. Previous to that he was on one of the around- 
tlie-world American President Line boats, the name of which sliip I 
have forgotten temporarily. Kenneth Goss is a well-known Com- 
nnmist and talks commttnism to everyone that will listen to him and 
he is therefore a dangerous character to have aboard any merchant 
ship, especially in time of war. 



7968 • UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know J. L. Fislibein? 

Mr. Howe. I don't know Fishbein in person. I Imve heard a lot 
about liim. He was also a member of local 1, A, C. A., Boston, and 
is well known there to be a Communist. 

I made inquiries wlien I was there from a great many men and 
they all told me the same story — that Fishbein was a Communist. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Do you know Karl Lundquist? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, I know Karl Lundquist very well, personally. 
Karl Lundquist is a Communist and is a member of the party and is 
also an agitator and a personal nuisance aboard every ship upon 
which he works. He is always mingling with the crew back aft and 
finding fault with tlie way the sliip is run. He is one of these men 
who is never satisfied. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a man by the name of Antonacci? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, I know Mr. Antonacci very well. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you spell his name? 

Mr. Howe. A-n-t-o-n-a-c-c-i, I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. What do you know about Mr. Antonacci? 

Mr. Howe. He is a young fellow of Italian extraction, a Com- 
munist, a member of the party. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know his first name? 

Mr. Howe. I think it is Antone. I wouldn't want to bet on that, 
though. 

Mr. Matthews. No ; were you going to say something else about him ? 

Mr. Howe. He is a typical Communist — a young fellow of enthu- 
siasm. The world must be changed quickly. He wants the revolution 
to take place tomorrow if possible. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Howe, do you know anything about the 
connection between the American Communications Association and 
the National Maritime Union, and the Transport Workers' Union, 
particularly the New York local? 

Mr. Howe. They ;ire all linked up together. Of course that is the 
Conrmunist Party line, as we all know, but the National Maritime 
Union is more closely linked up with the American Communications 
Association than any other union. As a matter of fact the old 
A. R. T. A. was the founder of the National ]\Iaritime Union. 

When Joe Curran pulled his men off the steamship California in 
1936, it was A. R. T. A., Local 2. that furnished the money and rented 
the hall, guaranteed the telephone bills for Joe Curran's so-called 
rank and file of the old I. S. U. We received a telephone bill in 
local 2 of almost $400 which was incurred by Curran's rank and file 
office at 164 lltli Avenue, New York City, during the strike. Local 
2, A. R. T. A., together with the national office of A. R. T. A. 
backed Curran's i-ank and file movement from its very inception. 
They worked very closely on all occasions. 

One of the reasons why, pei'haps, I was thrown out was because 
I refused to work with such kind of men as Joe Curran and Blackie 
Meyers and Jack Lawrence who are in there for some ulterior pur- 
pose other than the benefits to the radio officers or the seamen 
involved. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what connections are there in the way of 
cooperation between the A. R. T. A. and the Transport Workers' 
Union of which Michael Quill is the head? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7969 

Mr. Howe. Well, they are all linked up togetlier in this way : That 
the Connnunist Party desires to tie up communications and trans- 
portation. It so happens that the Transport Workers' Union is a 
land union and the Maritime Union, the National Maritime Union, 
is a water union, so to speak. One is enoaged in organizing men on 
land and the other in organizing transport workers on the sea. 

Mr. MATriiEws. Do you know anything about the situation with 
respect to Connnunist control in the Postal Telegraph? 

^Ir. Howe. It is very easily seen that the Communist faction in 
the A. C. A, controls the Postal Telegraph at least 99 percent. The 
Postal Telegraph Co. is organized by the American Communica- 
tions Association. I attended the last two national conventions 
of that held in Xew York in 1937 and 1938, and the Comnnmist 
Party got everything that it wanted. No question in my mind but 
M-hat the Comnumist Party controls the A. C. A. 99 percent. 

As a matter of fact they control in 100 percent but by 99 — I mean 
about 99 })ercent of the officials are actually Connnunists, members 
of the party. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of your own knowledge whether 
prominent labor leaders in the United States find it necessary to use 
other telegraph services because of their knowledge of the Com- 
munist Party's control? 

;Mr. Howe. I have heard that the officials of Postal Telegraph 
Co. themselves refuse to send messages via Postal Telegraph because 
they know very well tlie stooges who are employed by Postal Tele- 
graph, who are members of A. C. A., may reveal the contents of 
the messages. I know that has been the case several times to my 
personal knowledge. 

Ml". IMatthews. What is the situation with respect to Communist 
Party control in the cables? 

Mr. Howe. Well, the A. C. A. has an agreement with the French 
Cables Co. and it also has an agreement with R. C. A. C, which 
means the Radio Communications Corporation that has jurisdiction 
over the point-to-point radio services, such as between New York 
and Buenos Aires and New York and Moscow, New York and parts 
of England. In fact, all over the world. The xV. C. A. has organ- 
ized the communication workers that handle this point-to-point 
communication. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the A. C. A. have a signied agreement with 
the Globe Wireless? 

Mr. Howe. They have a signed agreement with the Globe Wire- 
less which is an organization which communicates mainly with the 
American President Line vessels and also interoffice communication 
of the American President Line, formerly the Dollar Steamship 
Lines. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the A. C. A. have a signed agreement with 
the Press Wireless? 

Mr. Howe. They do for the west coast and Honolulu. They re- 
cently called a strike on the west coast and won their demands. 
They tied up the Wireless Press — the Press Wireless service for 
several weeks, I believe it was, and I believe they got everything 
that they asked for. The service in the meantime was com[)lcteiy 
at a standstill. 



7970 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what is a deadhead message? 

Mr. How^. A deadhead message is usually one sent by someone 
who has a frank — doesn't cost him anything. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the situation according to your in- 
formation with reference to sending deadhead messages by cable via 
these stations where they have control? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I would like to explain that. The radio service 
on American ships is controlled to some extent by two major radio 
service companies and by that I mean that these companies manu- 
facture or sell the radio equipment on board and they furnish the 
service and they furnish the radio operator on the vessel and when a 
company hires a man he must also be approved by the radio service 
company because the radio service company either lents that equi]3- 
ment to the company or owns it or they have a contract Avith the 
company. 

So the radio service companies give the radio operator a frank 
and he can send anything from that ship to one of the company's land 
stations free of charge. The only charge he has to pay is a small 
land-line charge that is usually between 3 and 11 cents per word 
to all parts of the United States. Three cents to the city of the 
area in which tlie land station is located. So he could send a message 
for 30 cents which would cost anyone else $2 or $3. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask this question. 
Mr. Howe, what governmental agency has regulatory authority over 
communications ? 

Mr. Howe. The Federal Communications Commission. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether the Federal Communications 
Connnission has taken any action in I'egard to these Communists who 
are radio operators in our ships? 

Mr. Howe. No. So far as I know no action was ever taken. 

Mr. Dempset. Does the Federal Communications Commission have 
any jurisdiction over personnel on ships? 

Mr. Howe. No; I don't believe they have, from what I have read 
of the act — I don't believe so. 

The Chaiemax. They don't. 

Mr. Dempset. They have nothing to do with it? 

Tlie Chairman. They couldn't fire a man because he was a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Howe. No. The only time they could take action would be 
if this man had violated some rule of the Commission or some law 
which the Commission is charged with enforcing. 

Mr. Dempset. The Commission carries out the law that the Con- 
gress enacted and that is the only authority they have, isn't it? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; so far as I know, that is. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Thomas. Maybe it would be a good idea to chang'e some of 
the laws. 

Mr. Dempset. And we are trying to get you to do it. 

Mr. Thomas. And I am willing to take it up at the next executive 
session. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

]\Ir. JSIattiiews. Mr. Howe, do you have personal knowledge of a 
slow-down strike on board ships, carried out by members of the 

The Chairman. Well, I don't believe you completed this dead- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7971 

head message question — ^liow they are able to transmit messages. 
Wei-en't you about to get down to that ^ Wasn't the question whether 
or not the Communists 

Mr. Maithews. Are able to utilize their privilege for deadhead 
messages. 

]Mr. Howe. There would be no charge as far as the ship was con- 
cerned. You must understand that when any man sends a message 
from ship to shore, the following charges prevail : Eight cents i^er 
word for the ship tax; for the land station which receives the land 
message the rate varies anywhere from 8 to 15 cents, depending on 
the station, the company and the country that controls the station. 
And then you have got the land-line charges which vary in various 
parts of the world. Some countries have a blanket rate for the whole 
country of 1 or 1% cents a word or other countries like this country 
charge bv zones. 

As I said awhile ago, the rate is 3 cents minimum for the area in 
which the station is located, but if the message is received by a New 
York station, for example, and is transmitted by land line to San 
Francisco, there would be 11 cents per word charge for the land lines. 
So that would be 8 plus 10 for the coastal station charge, plus 11 for 
the land line. 

Well, now, a Communist or anyone else for that matter, aboard the 
ship could save the 8 cents per word ship charge, the 10 cents per 
word land-line charge or coastal station charge would be only 8. He 
would be required to pay the land-line charge which would be 3 cents 
for New York or 11 cents across the country. I think that is about 
all. 

Mr. Dempsey. Let me ask you this question : Do you send any 
messages from a ship that you do not keep a record of on board? 

Mr. Howe. No; you must according to the F. C. C regulations 
keep a record of every message. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is also true of the receiving station, isn't it ? 

Mr. Ho\ve. Yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. They keep a record? 

Mr. Howe. They must. 

Mr. Dempsey. Now, do you mean to tell the committee that a Com- 
munist or any employee ha\nng a frank is permitted to send any 
kind of a telegram or message they desire? 

Ml-. Howe. Under the restrictions the law gives the master of the 
vessel the right to censor any message that is sent or received on board 
the vessel, but there is nothing to prevent the radio officer from send- 
ing anything tliat he wants to send when the captain is not in the 
room. And in fact it could be done if he were in the room because 
not knowing the code he could not tell what the man was sending. 

Mr. Dempsey. What about the receiving station? 

Mr. Howe. Well, they would receive it. 

Mr. Dempsey. There would be a record of it, wouldn't there ? 

Mv. Thomas. The same thing could apply there. There need not 
be a record if they are both Commimists. 

Mr. Howe. Yes. Two could arrange between themselves — sup])os- 
ing a man in Moscow was delegated to work someone on the steamship 
Mmihatfan. It would be prearranged that they would use false call 
letters. They would not use the call letters of the Manhattan and 
they would not use the call letters of the Moscow station. They 



7972 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ? 

would use some other call letters. They might use a Chinese call. 
So they call, and anyone hearing that would think that there was 
some Chinese ship and some Chinese land stations actually communi- 
cating with each other. No one could tell that it was the Manhattan 
and Moscow working each other. 

So they could send their messages 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you know of any instances of that kind? 
Mr. HoAVE. Only to this extent : That it is so common among oper- 
ators to work each other, especially from one ship to the other, that 
it is done thousands of times every day and those are not regular 
messages, although under the rules, under the law, they woidd require 
abstracting and a notation in the log, but it is not done. And I 
might also say that the coastal stations are so busy that they actually 
in practice do not make a notation of everything that they send. If 
they did they would never send much of anything. All they do is to 
make a notation every 15 minutes that they heard soinething; that 
they worked a certain ship. Although the rules require that every 
time they operate the transmitter they must make an entry in the log, 
but the ruling is so ridiculous that it can't be done. 

Mr. Thomas. You. don't have to have a new law on that? 
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Howe, from your knowledge of the Communist 
Party members, and the Communist Party teachings, would it be 
your conclusion that the Communists would not hesitate to violate 
regulations of the kind that 3^ou describe? 

Mr. Howe. A Communist has positively no principles and no ethics. 
The better Communist he is the poorer are his ethics and principles. 
There is nothing that a good Communist will not do to further the 
aims and purposes of the party. 

Mr. Matthews. I asked you some time ago if you knew whether or 
not labor leaders in America found it inadvisable to use the Postal 
Telegraph and you did not answer my question directly. You spoke 
of the officials of the concern itself. Will you answer that question? 

Mr. Hoave. I am sorry, I did not completely ansAver your question. 
The organization that I am noAv employed by. the Commercial Teleg- 
raphers' Union, Maritime Division, never uses Postal Telegraph. We 
would like to use Postal Telegraph because it is organized, but we 
can't do it because we don't trust the Communist members in the 
Postal Telegraph to deliA^er the messages promptly, efficiently, and 
accurately, and without revealing their contents to someone else. 
We knoAv the Communists so well that Ave Avould not trust any mes- 
sage in tlieir hands. We ahvays use Western Union. 

Mr. Mattheavs. What do 3'ou knoAv about the sIoav clown? 
INIr. HoAA^. There Avas a sIoav down in Mackay Radio coastal sta- 
tions only a feAv Aveeks ago. The operators at the Mackay coastal sta- 
tions are the best operators in the world — second to none — 40 to 45 
Avords a minute is a common thing Avith them. And that is high speed 
in radio transmission and reception. 

In order to Avin their demands, the demands AAdiich A. C. A. Avas 
making, they put themseh-es in the lowest class of the operating pro- 
fession by means of a sloAv-down strike and adA^ertised to all of the 
world that Avas listening in foreign ships of every nationality, that 
the Mackay Radio men Avere amateurs, and it took 2 hours to get 
a message through that should have been received in 2 minutes. 



UN-AMERICAN rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7973 

And that lasted for 2 or 3 weeks until the company was forced to 
jjive in to them. They didn't quit their jobs. Tliey didn't go on 
strike. They merely i-efused to ^\•ork. A ship would call up a Mackay 
coastal station and lie wouhl receive a reply: "Can hardly hear you, 
send slower." He was sending 10 words a minute then. And asked 
liim to send still slower. That was a very bad — had a very bad ad- 
vertising effect on thousands of foreign radio officers who listened in 
for weeks to tlie inefficiency of the Mackay coastal station radios. 

Mr. Dempset. What code do you use? 

"Slv. Howe. It is called the International Morse Code. It is not ex- 
actly the same as the American land-line code but one-half of the 
letters are identical. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Howe, are you acquainted with the Communist 
Party teachings with respect to trade-unions? 

]Mr. Howe. If I may- — I did not finish my answer to that other 
question about the slow down ; if I may complete that before I forget. 

It is a practice on almost all of the ships of the Merchant Marine 
to send 2 weather messages daily to the United States Weather 
Bureau. One is sent at 7 a. m.. Eastern Standard Time and the 
other at 7 p. m., E-astern Standard Time. During the hurricane 
season in the West Indies and the typhoon season in the Far East, 
they are sent several times a day at the request of the United States 
Weather Bureau. 

A year ago last fall the radio operators on the Pacific coast, at the 
instigation of Roy A. Pyle, who is now the first vice president of 
A. C. A., at a certain specified time and at a certain specified date, 
these men refused to obey the lawful orders of the master of the ves- 
sel and refused to send these Weather Bureau messages to the 
Weather Bureau. 

Now. I am sympathetic, greatly, with the men because I know what 
it means to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning as he has to do on the 
west coast. I said these were sent at 7 a. m., eastern standard time. 
On the Pacific coast that means 4 a. m. Pacific standard time. So he 
is forced to get up at -i o'clock in the morning to send a weather 
message. But I don't approve of the means thut were employed to 
straighten that matter out. They positively refused to accept the 
message from the captain; did not accept the message and did not 
send it and won their point by a refusal to obey the lawful orders of 
the master. And I would say that the F. C. C. would have a right 
under that matter to revoke the license of every man who refused to 
accept and send those messages. 

Mr. Thomas. Were the licenses revoked ? 

The Chairman. Yes. The F. C. C. has the right. 

The Chairman. When did that happen? 

Mr. Howe. That happened a year ago last autumn. 

The Chairman. You have no information that w^as ever brought 
to the attention of the F. C. C, do you ? 

]\Ir. Howe. Xo; I don't know whether it was officially brought or 
not. 

The Chairman. And if the company compromised with the men 
and reached another agreement, what could the F. C. C. do about it? 

Mr. Howe. If they could or any master should charge the operator 
Avith refusal to obey his orders, tlien the F. C. C. regulations provide 
that his license may be revoked. 



7974 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. The initiative would have to be taken by the master 
of the ship, woukl it not ? 

Mr. Howe. By the master or company or possibly the Weather 
Bureau. 

The Chairman. The F. C. C could not take cognizance or judicial 
notice of it without somebody complaining? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

The Chairman. You don't mean to imply the F. C. C. failed to 
perform its duty in any respect? 

Mr. Howe. No. I think it is an efficient body. 

The Chairman. The object of an investigation of this kind is 
to briiio; to the attention of the Government conditions that exist 
throughout the country. 

Mr. Howe. I think, owing to the conditions that prevail on the 
west coast, that the companies themselves would not wish to have 
that done because it would probably mean the tying up of the entire 
Pacific coast. They have had so many tie-ups out there that the 
companies don't want to go through any more than are necessary. 

Mr. Mason. But it only goes to prove the stranglehold that these 
Communists in the unions have upon the communications of the 
Government ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. And it also proves — and I believe it was put out 
for this purpose — it proves that they will obey orders. We know that 
the Communist Party's organization is based on the strictest kind of 
discipline, and they have to test these men out. They test out the 
memlDers of the party by putting them to doing various menial tasks- 
They probably did this to see if the men would live up to the union 
rules, and they found that they would, so why wouldn't they refuse 
to do something in time of war ? 

Mr. Maithews. Mr. Howe, you spoke some time ago of the Com- 
munist Party teachings with reference to the need for controlling 
labor unions? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you acquainted with Communist Party litera- 
ture on that subject? 

Mr. Howe. I have read quite a bit of it ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the program of the Com- 
munist International. Is that your own personal copy [handing 
paper to the witness] ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; that is mine. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 77 of this booklet there appears the fol- 
lowing : 

It is particularly important for the purpose of wiiming over the majority of 
the proletariat to gain control of the trade unions which are genuine mass 
working class organizations, closely bound up with the everyday struggles of 
the working class ; to work in reactionary trade unions and skillfuiUy to gain 
control of them, to win the confidence of the broad masses of the industrially 
organized workers; to change and remove from their posts the reformist leaders 
represent important tasks in the preparatory period. 

Has your experience in trade-union work indicated that the Com- 
munist Party members work precisely according to that program of 
the Communist International? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. That has been my experience throughout. 

Mr. Mattiiew\«!. You have seen the Communist Party maneuver 
to remove trade-union officials from their posts ^ 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7975 

Mr. IIowK. Yes, sir. I passed through that myself, and I know 
of many others that passed through the same thing. I might say 
that our organization was not organized by Connnunists. The spon- 
sor of it was James Dehiney, an Irishman, and lie was not, is not, 
and probably never will be, a Connmmist. He organized the 
A. E. T. A. 

When the Connnunist fraction discovered that there was a little 
money in it, there was a chance to get control, they came in and 
they threw James Delaney out, not exactly the same way they threw 
me out, but not nuich dilference. 

They took control and they kept control until a man by the name 
of Mark Burrow was elected as secretary of A. R. T. A., Local 2, 
nnd I was his successor. When they had the purge a year ago last 
February the following results took place: 

I was barred from the hall, barred from my own office. Local 2: 
svas taken over by ]Mervyn Rathborne, Roy Pyle, and Chester Jordon. 
The assistant secretary was forced to resign. The Philadelphia 
delegate, who was elected by the membei-ship, was summarily dis- 
charged — thrown out of his office and further payment of wages 
prohibited. 

Then they went to work on the port of Boston. They sent six 
men down to Boston. The men were Roy A. Pyle, Chester Jordon, 
Van P^rman, the two Winnocur brothers, and someone else. They 
went down there to put this little fellow on the spot. Tried to 
make him i-esign. He wouldn't resign. They got up a petition of 
16 names only on it, and Roy A. Pyle called up the Boston office 
of A. C. A. by long-distance telephone and told Mr. Richard J. 
Golden that if he did not resign they would come down there and 
put him out the same as they put Howe out. 

That frightened Golden and he resigned the marine division of 
A. C. A., and today it is controlled 100 percent by members of the 
Communist Party, and I don't mean maybe when I say they are 
known to any intelligent man in A. C. A., that these men are Com- 
munists, members of the party, and are using it for the benefit of 
the purpose and the objectives of the Communist Party. 

And they did almost identical things in the Xational Maritime- 
Union. I don't want to dwell on that because it is not my union, 
but I do know quite a bit about it. I know that a number of men 
were kicked out in aljout the same way that I was kicked out. 

The Chairman. Tell me, Mr. Howe, how could the Communists 
and these unions. INIaritime Union and the American Communica- 
tion Association, Radio and Electrical W^orkers, and so on, and so 
forth, how could they use their position to serve the foreign policy 
of Moscow if that foreign policy decreed that the Communist Party 
of the United States was supposed to stop or was instructed to stop 
the sending of vital war materials to the Allies at the present time? 

Mr. Howe. Well, it would be a very simple matter by the control 
of the lougshoremen, such as they have on the west coast. They 
don't have it on the east coast; or by the control by the marine 
workers. If they didn't want to have this material go to a foreign 
country, they could have their men refuse to load the material on 
board the ships or have the men refuse to sail and that could be done, 
not directl}' — it probably would not be done directly. The Com- 

949.^1 — 40— vol. ir. 20 



7976 UN-AI\IERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

munists are too wise for that. They would have some other phoney 
beef. 

They mioht ask for a 200 percent bonus, such as they asked here 
awhile ago when they asked for 250 percent. That was largely on 
account of the war. They did that — did the same thing during the 
Spanish crisis with the American Export Line — about the only line 
running over to Spain. They demanded 250 percent for passing 
through the Straits of Gibraltar — a bonus of 250 percent merely 
because the ship went near the war zone. 

The Chairman. That was furnished as a pretext to carry out the 
party's line? 

INIr. Howe. Yes. 

The Chairman. Party's instructions? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; they wanted to stop the ships from going over 
there. At least they wanted to stop the ships from carrying am- 
munition. They don't want to come out directly and say that possi- 
bly, so they call a strike for some other purpose, asking for an 
unreasonable increase in pay, which I think that was very 
unreasonable. 

The Chairman. Well, what is the extent of their control or what 
could they do for instance if the party instructed them to do every- 
thing in their power to stop the shipment of war materials to the 
Allies ? Could they stop it ? 

Mr. Howe. On the east coast they could stop it on American 
vessels if they wanted to by calling a strike. Of course they couldn't 
stop it from being shipped on foreign vessels — vessels flying a for- 
eign flag, but they could do that almost 100 jiercent on the west coast 
because Harry Bridges out there controls tlie stevedores — the long- 
shoremen who load and unload the ships. 

The Chairman. What could they utilize the communication asso- 
ciations for in time of war* Say in the event the United States 
entered the Avar on the other side of Russia, what use could they 
make of the control of these various unions? 

Mr. Howe. Well, they could use that for various purposes — to 
carry or transmit vital messages and there is no reason why they 
couldn't handle a great number of messages to any enemy nations. 

They could reveal the position of convoys, battleships, submarines, 
if they happened to know them, and undoubtedly that is why they 
want to get control as much as possible of the maritime industry, so 
they could give the enemy information. 

Mr. Dempsey. Since the listing of the arms embargo and the 
restricti(m of American vessels going into the combat zone, do you 
knoAv of any American vessels carrying munitions of any kind? "^ 

Mr. Howe. Well, of course under the Neutrality Act an American 
vessel cannot sail to belligerent ports. 

Mr. Dempsey. So they don't carrying munitions? 
Mr. Howe. But they undoubtedly carry munitions or materials 
which would be classed as contraband — carry this material to coun- 
tries adjoining belligerents. In fact it can be done even to belligerent 
nations. I believe tlie Export Line is calling at tlie port of Marseilles 
in southern France, which is really a violation of the Neutrality Act 
but I understand the State De})artment or some other department of 
the goA'ernment has okayed that stop. So they do call that a bel- 



rX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7977 

lij^ereiit port. They ccnild cairy any kind of luutei'iul to any other 
port like Italy or any country adjoinin*; any bellio-erent nation. 

Mr. Dempsey. But not to a combat nation? 

]Mr. Howe. Xo. 

The Chairman. Now, suppose that the Comnumist dictatorship in 
Russia wanted to transmit messajjes to the Communist Party here or 
some aijency of the Conununist Government; Moscow wanted to trans- 
mit messaties and they didn't want to do it in the reouhir way — 
throujili the way of cableorams, would they be in a position to send 
instructions to the Conununist Party of the United States in a secret 
way ? 

]\Ir. Howe. Well, they coukl haA'e that arranoed between the party 
and the oi>erators ayIio were on various ships, such as the Manhattan 
and Wa-shhif/ton — any ship that has a hioh-powered, efficient trans- 
mitter and sensitive receivino- set could be delegated to receive these 
messa.ires. Su|)pose the ^Manhattan is only a few hours from New 
York, bt)und for New York, and the Moscow Government wanted to 
send some vital information, so they call up the Manhattaii. according 
to a ])rearrano:ed scliedule, transmit the messages. The operator 
makes no notation of them and he delivers them when he gets oft" the 
shi]) in New York. That could be done in a thousand ways. It 
could be done on several hundred ships. 

Mr. Tno:MAS. In other words 

The Chairman. AVait just a second. 

Mr. Thomas. Right along that same line a good point to bring up, 
at the time Russia and Germany entered into its nonaggression pact, 
Earl Browder probably got some word from INIoscow as to what to 
sa3'. He waited a day or two. Then he got the word through that 
way. Isn't that true? That is possible, isn't it? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; that would be ])ossible. In fact I think it is done. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact I think we have got the cable- 
grams — all the cablegrams between Russia and the Daily Worker 
outlining the various policies that the Daily Worker was to pursue 
and ]iropaganda they were to spread, but there is no cablegram after 
the Soviet \mQ{. There is nothing in that of record indicating how 
Moscow got the instructions to the Communist Party to the United 
States as to what line to take with i-eference to this new change of 
policy. 

So whatever instructions that came would have had to come through 
the route that you have just described. 

Mr. Howe. That could be very easily done. It would be very diffi- 
cult to find out who received it because there are i^robably {iround 
one hundred fifty, maybe, members of the Commimist Party and 
good members I mean, who are working on ships and they could 
easily call uj) ]Moscow or any other station in Russia and get this 
importaTit information, and they could even relay it to some other 
ship were they unable to deliver it in person. There is always some 
ship arriving in New York or Boston or some other Dort. 

Mr. Dempsey. AYould it not be possible for the station at Moscow 
to call up the Manhattan, as you say, a few hours out of New York? 

Mr. Howe. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Dempsey. Without that message being intercepted bv other 
ships ? 



7978 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Howe. Well, if the Moscow station would use its own call 
letters 

Mr. Dempsey. No matter what call letters. 

Mr. Howe. I will explain that. If the Moscow station would use 
its own call letters and also the official call letters of the Maiihattofn^ 
then if we were listening- we would know that Moscow was working 
the Manhattan. But undoubtedly they wouldn't do it that way. As 
I said earlier in my testimony, they would probably use some false 
letters — a Chinese call. You understand that the international con- 
ventions of radio engineers have designated certain letters of the 
al])habet for each country. 

For illustration, the United States has the letters "K"' and ''N." 

Mr. Dempsey. The same as any telegraph station. They all have 
letters. 

Mr. Howe. These are listed in books which are on board every ship. 
You can look in the books and look up the name of any ship and find 
out what its call letters are. But now if you are violating the law 
and you want to conceal your identity, you would not use that call 
letter. You would use some false call. 

Mr. Dempsey. But the message itself could be heard by any one 
that might be listening in. There might be several hundred boats 
hearing the message ? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

The Chairman. But suppose the message is a special code? 

Mr. Howe. Then you would have to know the secret to the code to 
translate it. 

The Chairman. So it would be possible if there was a secret code 
agreed upon between the radio operator and the Moscow sending 
station, it would be possible to transmit a message without any record 
being made or without anyone knowing what the message was? 

Mr. Howe. I don't see wdiy the Russian Government couldn't send 
a message to its Ambassador here. They undoubtedly 

The! Chairman. The operator wouldn't have to know the code. 
The man that gets the message is the only man that needs to know 
the code? 

Mr. How^e. Just so the letters are there — A, B, C, and D ; doesn't 
matter what they mean. He can send or receive them. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Howe, you stated a moment ago the Commu- 
nist Party had something like 150 men aboard ships. Did you mean 
radio operators ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. One hundred and fifty radio operators ? 

Mr. Howe. One hundred and fifty operators; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. With respect to the question the chairman asked 
you about the foreign policies of Moscow, being furthered by the 
Communist Party members who are in trade unions, I show you an 
official ballot. Can you identify that paper [handing paper to the 
witness] ? 

Mr. Howe. This is the official ballot of the marine division of the 
A. C. A. It was sent out to all members of the marine division in 
the fall of 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, underneath the place where the members 
vote for the national officers there appears a resolution entitled 
"Resolution on Spain, Resolution No. 27." 



I'X-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7979 

Mr. Howe. That is right. This resohitioii No. 27 was adopted 
by tlie fourth national convention of A. C. A, held in New York 
in 1938. during the month of August, I believe. 

The resolution states that the A. C. A. will support the Spanish 
Ixn'alist Government. 

^'Resolved, That we extend our rleepest sympathy to our brother unionists 
and deiuocrjits iu the ranks of the people's army of the Spauish Loyalist 
Government, who are lishtingr against such great odds in defense of democracy, 
and thf independence of their national freedom; against the aggressions of 
Italy and Germany. 

That ballot was sent out to all the — I should say it was sent out 
to all the members of A. C. A. — 15,000 members. This is the marine 
division ballot only. That Avas voted on. They have a place here 
where you could vote "3'es" or '"no" on it. 

i\iv. M.\'rrHKws. I ask that be marked in evidence as an exhibit. 

The CiiAiR^tAX. It is so ordered. 

(The document referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked 
**Howe Exhibit No. 1," and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Howe, you are familiar with the various 
resolutions passed at the various conventions of the American Com- 
munications Association, are you not ? 

]Mr. Howe. Yes; I am. 

Mr. JNIatthem's. I will read you some of these resolutions and ask 
you if you will please identify them. 

In August 1937, the August 14 issue of the People's Press, there 
ajjpears a report of the third national convention of the A. R. T. A., 
and this report states: 

War and fascism were denounced. The delegates heard such speakers as 
John Brophy, Joe Curran, William Hinkley, of the American Youtli Congress, 
and S. K. Solomouick, of the American League Against War and Fascism. 
And it voted imanimously to participate in the peace parade on Saturday. 

Do you recall the adoption of that resolution? 

Mr. Howe. That resolution was adoi)ted and they voted to par- 
ticipate in the peace parade and they did participate in it. They 
adjourned the convention for that purpose. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that peace parade under the auspices of the 
Americiin League Against War and Fascism? 

Mr. Howe. Yes ; it was. 

The Chairman. Now, is there any record that since Russia's 
invasion of Poland and Finland that this union or any other union 
affiliated with this group, has gone on record expressing the sym- 
pathy for the people of Polantl or Finland who were invaded by 
Russia ? 

Mr. Howe. No; I haven't seen a single one. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. Any record where the Communist Party or any 
of the unions controlled by the Communist Party have sought any 
relief funds to aid the people of Poland and Finland, who were the 
victims of aggression? 

Mr. Howe, No. I haven't seen such thing. I don't think you 
will. 

The Chairman. Or lor the people of Norway or for the people 
of Sweden who are the victims of aggression — Denmark, rather, 
Denmark and Norway who are the victims of aggression by the 
Nazi-Germany? Have you seen any interest where the Communist 
Party are manifesting any sympathy for them. 



^980 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Howe. I read the Daily Worker every night. That is the 
official daily organ of the Communist Party published in New York, 
and I haven't seen any sympatliy expressed for Finland or Poland 
or Norway or Denmark. In fact they claim that Finland invaded 
Russia, I believe, and that Norway is to blame for Germany being 
in there. 

The Chairman. And England was responsible for the invasion of 
Norway and Denmark? 

Mr. Howe. The imperialists are the dirty scoundrels now. 

The Chairman. In other words, it further illustrates what we have 
heard from the beginning here, that whatever the party line of Mos- 
cow, whatever the interest of Moscow is, that determines the entire 
policy of the Communist Party of the United States and every organi- 
zation that it can control ? 

Mr. Howe. That is very true. I read the Pilot — I read the A. C. A. 
News and the Daily Worker and occasionally get a copy of the C. I. 
O. News. They take exactly the same position on everything. 

They are against the Dies Committee. They are now against Mr. 
Hoover, the G-man. and they are silent about the Hitler-Stalin pact. 
They condemn Finland or else they keep silent about it, one or the 
other. They don't defend Finland and Norway. They take the same 
attitude on everything, including President Roosevelt. 

When Browder clianged his party line and came out against Roose- 
velt why the rest of them all followed suit. This is particularly true 
with the A. C. A. They passed a resolution against Roosevelt in 
Cliicago a few days ago and at the same convention Mrs. Roosevelt 
made a speech. 

The Chairman. So that we really have a situation of a foreign 
government dictating to a large group in the United States what their 
politics and activities must be? 

Mr. Howe. That is exactly what it is. 

The Chairman. And the absolute obedience on the part of these 
groups in such cases. In other words, no matter how much change of 
opinion it may involve, they are ready to turn about face whenever 
instructions are sent from Moscow to do that? 

Mr. Howe. If Joe Stalin would tell them to commit suicide I really 
think they would all do it. 

Tlie Chairman. Might be well if he told them that. 

Mr. Thoinias. Just a few days ago there was a public statement to 
the press praising the A. C. A. and the head of the A. C. A. 

Mr. Hoave. Who was that? Mrs. Roosevelt? 

Mr. Thomas. I am not going to mention any names but one of the 
people you mentioned. But in regard to your statement about the 
C. I. O., do you really believe that the C. I. O. News, the paper that 
you mentioned, follows the same line that is in the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Howe. As far as I can see they have a writer — his name is Len 
De Caux, I believe. He writes for the Pilot, the A. C. A. News, 
and C. I. O. News. I believe he is also in the Daily Worker, but I 
have forgotten about that. I can't see any difference. It is the 
same old party line on everything. 

Tlie Chairman. All right. Have you been keeping up with some 
of the Nazi publications in the United States like the Weckruff ^ 

]Mr. Howe. No. 



UN-AMERICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7981 

The Oil UKMAN. To observe the simihxrity between the line now, the 
arguments they use and the policy between the Daily Worker and the 
Wecknitr. Thev are now iisino- (he same arounieiits. The Germans 
are talking- about plutocratic ccnuitries and imperialists and the Daily 
Worker is usin«>- the same language? 

Mr. Howe. 1 haven't got that from the publications but I have 
from members who art^who claim to be Fascists and they do give 
the same story. It is difficult to tell a Communist from a Fascist or 
Nazi. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. I^Iatthews. :Mr. Howe, did you have some personal experiences 
with respect to the American League Against War and Fascism? 

Mr. Ho AVE. I mention the name of S. R. Solomonick. He was an 
official of the American League for Peace and Democracy as also was 
AVillard Bliss, who was executive vice president of A. C. A. They 
got in a fight with Rathborne and then went with the American 
League for Peace and Democracy and were there when that organiza- 
tion folded up during the winter of 1937. A. R. T. A., Local 2. voted 
to send a delegate to a Congress of the American League for Peace 
and Democracy and that was a very heated debate in Local 2 over 
that, and I was in favor of sending a delegate and I was elected to 
go to this convention. 

So I went to see Mr. Solomonick before the Congress opened, to 
see what it was all about — what we were supposed to do. I met 
Mv. Solomonick in his office, and he offered to write my speech for 
me if I would come there and make a speech. I asked him what 
would be the nature of the speech or what could I say. "Well." he 
said, "you are a radio operator, aren't you? You work on ships." 
"Now,'' he said, "in time of war if this country gets into a war. 
what M-ould be the first thing to do?" I said, "You can tell me that." 
"Well," he said, "naturally tie up the ships and stop the ^^ai"-" I 
said, "Mr. Solomonick, there are certain men in our organization 
that believe that this league is controlled by Communists." He said, 
"That was ridiculous." He showed me a list of around 200 names — 
there were two or three bisho])S and several preachers on the list. 
They were sponsors of the American League. I didn't tell Mr. Solo- 
monick what I thought about him or his organization, but I went 
back to A. R. T. A.. Local 2. and I resigned as a delegate to that Con- 
gress and no other delegate was elected. 

I told the members what I had discussed with Mr. Solomonick; 
that I was certain that the American League was just as much a 
Communist organization as the Communist Party itself, and I would 
have nothing to do with it. But that American League sent speakers 
to A. R. T. A., Local 2. just as often as we would receive them. 

They came there many times and talked about the May Day 
demonstration or the pul)lic trial of William Randolph Hearst, and 
were always taking up collections. 

We frequently gave them money out of our treasury. And Mr. 
Solomonick spoke at the third and also the fourth A. C. A. national 
convention. 

Ml-. ^Matthews. And he was an official of the American League for 
Peace and Democracy? 



7982 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Howe. He was an official of the American League at that 
time and was invited there by Mervyn Kathborne, president of the 
A. C. A. 

The Chairman. Now, before we go into the other phases of this 
witness' testimony, I think it would be well for us to adjourn for a 
while. I understand that you gentlemen were up nearly all night 
going over this material and getting ready for today. An early 
adjournment will give you an op]:)ortunity to rest for a while. Sup- 
pose we meet back here at 2 o'clock and complete this testimony. 

(Whereupon, at 11:45 a. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., 
the same day.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. 
The witness will resume the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF FRED M. HOWE— Resumed 

The Chairman. For the benefit of the record, will you again state 
your name and the organization with which you are connected? 

Mr. Howe. My name is Fred M. Howe ; secretary of the American 
Radio Telegraphists' Association, Local No. 2, New York, affiliated 
with the C. I. O. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Howe, this morning you identified one of the 
resolutions passed at the convention of the A. R. T. A. I should 
like to read you some more resolutions passed at the various meet- 
ings and ask you to identify them : 

Moved and seconded that the Communist Party be advised to refrain immedi- 
ately from passing leaflets referring American Radio Telegraphers' Association. 

Do you recall when that motion was introduced in Local 2 ? 

Mr. Howe. That was passed by the membership of A. R. T. A., 
Local 2, some time during the strike — the seamen's strike which oc- 
curred during the winter of 1936 and 1937. The exact date I don't 
recall. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the motion tabled ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. That motion was tabled, to my recollection. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall whether it was tabled by a vote 
of 33 to 14? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I have forgotten about the details. 

Pearlman, O. J. A., moved that those members who were not present at the 
last meeting and who desire to make it possible for the American Student Union 
to prevent students from scabbing, contribute to a collection to be taken up 
at this meeting and that a letter be sent to the American Student Union, to the 
local secretary, enclosing a check for the funds collected at this and the 
previous meeting. 

Do you recall whether such a motion was passed or not? 

Mr. Howe. Such a motion was introduced. I have just forgotten 
the disposition of it but I am quite certain that that was adopted by 
a majority of the members. 

Mr. Matthews. July 21. 

Moved and seconded that Mr. Van Taine of the American League Against 
War and Fascism be permitted to address the meeting. Carried unanimously. 

Do you recall that motion? 



rX-A.MERKWX PROrAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 7983 

^h'. Howe. I recall that and a ^reat many others of that nature. 
Mr. Van Taine of the American Lca<>ue for Peace and Democracy 
at that time called the American I^^a<iue Against War and Fascism, 
came to the hall of Local 2 on a great many occasions and addressed 
the membership there for various purposes or causes. Sometimes it 
Avas a May Day demonstration. It may haA'e been some kind of a 
peace meeting or parade or all the causes that the Conmiunists usually 
sponsor. He came there many times. 

Mr. Matthews. I will read you another motion of April 21. 

Moved and seconded that a preparations committee be elected to make ar- 
rangements for tlie participation of ARTA in tlie May Day parade and to 
provide proper banners and to take care of all mechanics of participation. 

Was that motion adopted? 

^fr. PlowE. I believe it was. 

Mr. Maithews. Was that a Mav Dav i)arade held in Xew York 
City? ^ ' 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it the May Day parade under the control of 
the Conmiunist Party of New York City ? 

Mr. Howe. I think all of those parades are under the control of 
the Conmiunist Party. About the only persons who participate in 
them are Communists and their stooges. Perhaps we should call 
them dupes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Howe, the w-ater-front section of the Com- 
munist Party, located at 230 Seventh Avenue, New York, publish a 
ship pa])er. Did you ever see a copy of it? 

Mr. Howe. I have a copy in my hies at home. 

Mr. Matthews. You have a cop}' ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I would like to read you a paragraph from a 
certain issue : 

This paper should Ik' handwritten, type or mimeographed, depending on ihe 
ships situation, length of trips and so forth. The paper should reflect the ship 
in company dues and should also raise issues for the crew. Establish contact 
with "sparks." 

Now, what is ''sparks"? 

Mr. Howe. S])arks is the term given to the radio officer aboard 
ship. It dates back to the old type of transmitter where you could 
hear the sparkle all over the siiip. so when the spark sounded they 
called the man who sent it ''sparks." 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the Communist Party is here in- 
structing its members to make contact with the ship operators ? 

Mr. Hoave. Yes. That Avas jnit out to the seamen. Of course they 
told the seamen to contact sparks or the radio officer. 

Mr. Matthews. AVill you be good enough to furnish the com- 
mittee a co])y of that particular issue of this leaflet? 

Mr. Howe. I will be very glad to. 

Mr. ]\Iattheavs. You are acquainted with Mervyn Rathborne, are 
you. ^Ir. Howe? 

^Ir. Howe. I know him very well. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Mr. Chainnan. for a minute I should like to have 
]\rr. Frank B. Powers sworn to identify a communication. 

The Chairmax. Come ai-oimd, Mr. Powers. Raise your right 
hand please. 



7984 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

TESTIMONY OF FRANK B. POWERS 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God? 

Mv. Powers. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mati'hews. It will not even be necessary for the witness to be 
seated, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Powers, I show you a photostatic copy of a letter addressed 
to you and signed by Mervyn Rathborne. Can you identify that 
as a true copy of a letter you received from Mr. Rathborne [hand- 
ing paper to the witness] ? 

]Mr. PoAVERS. That is a true copy. 

Mr. Matthews. Thank you. This letter is dated Februarv 4, 
1931, and is addressed to Mr. Frank B. Powers, C T. IT. of N! A., 
the Commercial Telegraphers' Union of North America, 113 South 
Ashland Boulevard, Chicago, 111. 

Dear Sik. Relative to my letter of January 20 I would appreciate some indi- 
<:'ation from you as to just what the officials of the CTU intend to do in regard 
to the Pacific Marine Radio Division. During the past two weeks two new 
members have joined. I had been working on these men for a long time and 
did not want to stop them from joining 'at the last moment while there was 
still a chance of settling the present difficulties in regard to support. 

If the CTU is no longer interested in a radio division, please advise me at 
your earliest convenience so we make plans to establish an independent organ- 
ization. Incidentally, the Communist Party in great contrast to the CTU, is 
eager 'and willing to organize the operators. Of course their idea is to cause a 
tie-Tip of American shipping and to make trouble, but one would think that an 
American organization, such as the American Federation of Labor, would be 
willing to do as much as a foreign outfit bent on making trouble. 

I am still convinced that I can obtain 'a substantial number of new members 
if I were permitted to get out and organize. Results have proved this so far 
as each time I have been to the harbor I have obtained one member. 

Trusting that I may hear from you in the near future, sincerely, Mervyn R. 
Rathborne. 

TESTIMONY OF FRED M. HOWE— Resumed 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Mr. Howe, you have seen a copy of this letter, 
have you not? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photostatic copy of a page from 
the Daily Worker, dated January 4, 1935. Have you seen a copy of 
this particular page from the Daily Worker and particularly an 
article entitled "Red Scare Raised Among Telegraphists." 

Mr. Howe. I don't believe I have seen this particular issue of the 
paper, but I have seen that article reproduced. 

Mr. Matfhbws. This article reads in ])art as follows: 

Ridletin against communists issued by candidate for president of the ARTA. 
Houston. Texas. There are certain elements in the American Radio Teleg- 
raphists' Association that are attempting to raise the Red scare as a means of 
splitting up our organization. 

One of these birds by the name of Mervyn Rathborne, who ran for president of 
the ARTA in the election, has taken the init'ative to issue the following slanderous 
bulletin, addressed to Dollar Line Radio Onerators. Sections of the text follow: 

".Tudging from information received in New York it appears that our Associa- 
tion, the ARTA, is in danger of being dominated and run by a small but powerful 
group of communists. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7985 

"Am indication of foiumunist activity within our ranks is shown by an article 
entitled 'The Marine Strike'. i)ul)lished on page 3 of the October issue of the 
ARTA BtiUetin. This article mentions 'the United Front Strike Committee, 
composed of the New York Local of the ARTA, the Marine AVorkers Industrial 
Union, alnnji with unorj^anizcd seamen, and the 1. S. U. seamen who liad gone 
over the lieads of their IcadiHs." The existence of sucli a committee indicates 
detinitely that close and active coojieration. if nothing more, exists between the 
ARTA and the M. W. I. U. I'roof that the M. W. I. U. is a communist organiza- 
tion is given in the Official I'rogram adopted by the M. W. I. U. National Con- 
vention, wliich states: "The M. W. I. U. is affiliated with the Red International 
of I^abor Unions which embraces over sixteen million workers organized in unions. 
Througli the R. I. L. U., the M. W. I. U. is linked up with millions of revolutionary 
workers not oidy in Europe, Russia, but in China, Korea, Japan, Indonesia, 
Aiistralia and Latin America.' 

"Additional evidence that the ARTA is swinging very far to the left is shown 
in the minutes of the ARTA national convention held in New York last September. 
This meeiing of ARTA representatives from all sections of the country adopted 
numerous resolutions endorsing or ordering active cooperation with the United 
States Ctaigress Against War and Fascism, the Atlantic Unity Conference, the 
Telegraph Messengers Union, the I'nited Telegraphers Association and others. 
At the Congress Against War and Fascism Earl Browder. Secretary-General of 
tlie Communist Parry of America, stated, 'This congress was /)rgauized and called 
by the Connuunist Party.' " 

This bulletin then goes on to urge the members to Investigate who is responsible 
for tbe.se leftwing moves and vote accordingly in the election. 

You liave seen that statement put out by Mr. Kathborne in 1935? 

]Mr. HoAVE. Yes, sir. 

Mr, MA-rraEWS. Do you know of your own knowledge that up until 
a date as h\te as January 1935, that ]\Ir. Rathborne did so claim that 
the A. R. T. A. was in dancer of beino; dominated by the Comnumist 
Party? 

jVIr. Howe. The exact date I am not certain about, but I do know 
that Rathborrie at least ceased "red-baitino-" about that time, and his 
stopping- criticizing the "reds" is similar to that of a great manv other 
officials and members of the A. R. T. A. and A. C. A., who have come 
under the influence of the party and suddenly stopped all criticism 
of it. because they were given a job or paid off 'or intimidated in some 
way. 

Rathborne is a typical example. Another man is the vice president 
of the marine division of A. C. A.— J. E. Croney. Croney did the 
same thing. He suddenly stopped criticizing the" "reds" at"^ approxi- 
mately April 2, 1939. My interpretation of that is that Rathborne 
was made an offer by the party — by the party faction in A. R. T. A. 

ISIr. Matthews. Your knowledge extends to the fact that since this 
date ]\Ir. Rathborn.e has not criticized the Communist control? 

Mr. Howe. Not once to my knowledge. 

Mr. Matthews. But prior to that time he himself publicly stated 
that the A. R. T. A. was run • 

]Mr. Howe. Run by Communists. 

^Ir. :Matthews. Under Connnunist domination? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

IVIr. Matthews. Or drifting in the direction of Communist domi- 
nation? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 
_ Mr. Thomas. Mr. Matthews, it is not clear to me as to what date that 
is you are referring to? 

^rr. Howe. It is the latter part of 1934 or the first part of 1935. 
Rathborne ran for the secretary-treasuiership of A. R. T. A. on a "red 



7986 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIA ITIES 

baiting" ticket. He was elected and refused to serve and a deal was 
made by which he would give up that job to Willard Bliss. Bliss took 
the job, although he was not elected to it, with the understanding that 
Ratiiborne become the next president, which he did become, and then 
Bliss was to be Eathborne's successor, but Rathborne refused to give 
up the job. A fight occurred between Bliss and Rathborne. Bliss 
left the A. C. A. and went with the American League for Peace and 
Democracy and was with the American League for Peace and Democ- 
racy until it closed its doors here because of the exposure by the Dies 
conmiittee. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I want to read you another portion of a letter, 
and ask you if you can identify it, in which Rathborne was continuing 
to criticize the Communists. This letter was dated December 11, 1934. 
Rathborne wrote : 

Your stand regarding outside influences in tlie AHTA is splendid. It reflects 
my opinion very well. You must remember that a good Communist cannot be a 
member of the ARTA and remain a C. P. man. The nature of the C. P. obliges 
him' to carry on underhanded intrigue, plots, and plans in any other non-com- 
munistic organizati<m. 

I believe that it is impossible for a man to be a sincere and loyal communist 
and a good ARTA member at the same time. 

Do you recall that? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. I have a photostatic copy of that letter at home. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you be good enough to supply the committee 
witli a photostatic copy of the original of that letter ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall any comnmnication in which Rath- 
borne stated that he was threatened if he did not withdraw from the 
race for the national secretary-treasurership of the A. R. T. A.? 

Mr. Howe. I have a copy of that letter — a photostatic copy, I should 
say — which Rathborne claimed that he was threatened with physical 
violence if he did not resign from the race for the secretary-treasurer- 
ship. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you a quotation from the letter : 

During the past 10 days I have been advised twice that my well-being and 
health will continue to be good only if I withdraw from the race for the secretary- 
treasurership. 

Is that the language of the comnmnication ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you say that after his election — that is, he did 
not withdraw, Rathborne resigned? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the fact? 

]\Ir. Howe. Yes. He did not accept the position. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what magazine was he publishing at that 
time ? 

Mr. Howe. The name of it was C. Q. 

Mr. Matthew s. The letters C. Q. ? 

Mr. Howe. C. Q., yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you notice a distinct change in the policy of 
C. Q., after Mr. Rathborne's resignation from his position? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; we all did. It was remarked upon. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he cease entirely his criticism of the Com- 
munists and the Communist Party. 



UN-AMEUICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7987 

Mr. Howe. As far as any of us can remember he never did criticize 
The i)art y apiin and wouUI* object to anyone else criticizing the party. 
It stopped very siuklenly at that particidar time. 

Mr. Maithews. Did C. Q. take on the political complexion of the 
C'onnnunist press at that time? 

Mr. Howe. It practically followed the party line shortly thereafter. 

;Mr. Matthews. Now, was Rathborne subsequently and shortly 
made president of A. R. T. A. ? 

Iklr. HoAVE. Yes : he was the next president of A. R. T. A. He suc- 
ceeded Hoyt Haddock. 

3[r. Matthews. And he defeated Bliss; is that correct? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; Haddock defeated Bliss in the election for the 
secretary-treasurership. 

^Ir. Matthews. Now, will you please first answer the question and 
then Give as definitely as you are able a reason for your answer. Is 
Rathborne a Conmiunist? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. ^^Hiy do you make that statement, Mr. Howe? 

Mr. Howe. I make that statement for a great variety of reasons, 
and if the committee wishes to hear them I will be pleased to give all 
the reasons. 

Mr. Matthews. I think the evidence is important. Will you please. 

Mr. Howe. I have some letters there, you have them in your pos- 
session, wliich I received from the second vice president of the marine 
division of A. C. A. His name is J. E. Croney. He lives in New 
Orleans. He is the secretary- of A. C. A., Local No. 5, at the present 
time. And as I said second vice president of the marine division. 

In these letters Avhich he has written to me, to which he has signed 
his name, he states that Rathborne has been a member of the party 
for a considerable length of time, since 1935, I believe. But without 
looking at the letters Ave would still knoAv that Rathborne is a Com- 
munist. 

In the winter of 1937 we had a trial in local 2, a trial of the local 
secretary. His name was Frank W. Robinson, and he was a Com- 
munist and a member of the party and still is a member of the marine 
division of A. C. A. 

Frank Robinson when asked by the trial committee whom he 
wished to defend him at the trial, stated that he would like to have 
'Sir. Rathborne defend him. Mr. Rathborne was not known in New 
York l)y any of the members of local 2. He had just arrived in New 
York from San Francisco only the day before, and he was selected 
l)y Robinson to defend him. 

During the course of his defense Rathborne stated as follows : 

"T wish to quote from tlie Declaration of Independence," and he held 
up a book before him; the title of it was something like this: 

"Communism by Earl BroAvder," and from that book he quoted the 
Declaration of Independence. It Avas the only place that Rathborne, 
a])parently. kneAv AAhere to find the Declaration of Independence — Earl 
BroAvder's book on communism. 

Mr. Thomas. I Avould like to ask a question right there. Is this the 
same IMr. Rathborne avIio was just recently appointed by the Presi- 
dent of the United States to the Boai-d of the National Youth Admin- 
istration? 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes, sir; that is the same man. 



7988 UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. So this man Rathborne was appointed to aid in the 
development of our youth. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute. That is a matter of public record. 
Mr. Thomas. I want to have it in the record. I think it is xevy 
important it appear in this record because here is a man who was 
appointed to aid in the development of youth of this country, and 
you have had any amount of testimony tliat this man Rathborne is a 
Comnumist. It is just another flirtation of the New Deal with com- 
munism. 

Tb.e Chairman. Well, that is a question that the witness, as I under- 
stand, cannot say on his personal knowledge that Rathborne is a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party. He is merely stating his conclusions 
based upon circumstances; is that rights 

Mr. Howe. Well, I have never seen his membership card, natu- 
rally. Rathborne is said to hold 

The Chairman. Well, the only reason that you have for saying or 
believing that Rathborne is a member of the Communist Party is the 
fact that after 1935 he ceased to attack the party, ceased to criticize 
the party, and his publication followed the Communist line: is that 
right? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; he followed the party line himself. 
The Chairman. And in addition to that you state that another rea- 
son that you think he is a member of the Communist Party is that in a 
trial of some officer in the union he defended him. That would be 
entirely possible for a man to do without being a Communist himself, 
■would it not ? 

Mr. Howe. It would seem that way. but when you know the Com- 
munists it is quite unthinkable. 

Mr. Thomas. And there is an additional reason. 
The Chairman. I may say in my judgment the only possible reason 
for admitting this type of testimony because of the circumstances that 
have arisen — the inability of tlie committee to i^et the membership lists 
of the Communist Party, their statement that they have no records, 
when the committee is fully advised that they do have records and in 
addition to that we have found records in certain places, detailed and 
complete records. 

The committee has tried every possible way to secure an authentic 
list of the Communist Party members. We have secured lists but have 
been unable to get the lists that we think are authentic. We have 
been unable to get those lists proven in a satisfactory way. So in the 
face of the refusal of the Communist Party to make ])ublic their 
membership list so that the country may know who the members are 
we are compelled to resort to secondary evidence, but it should be 
recognized that it is secondary evidence. And as I interpret this 
testimony it is largely a conclusion of this witness based upon certain 
reasons that he has. But let us hear all the reasons. 

Mr. Matthews. May I suggest the witness has not concluded his 
reasons ? 

The Chairman. I understand that is true, but I think wlien a wit- 
ness says that a certain man is a Communist that there ought to be 
some tangible proof to support that statement. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to have the witness repeat the last reason 
which he gave, and that is about reading the Declaration of Inde- 



UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7989' 

pendonoe from Earl Browder's book on coniinuuisni. That is enough 
proof for me. 

Mr. Mason. Go on with the hearmg. 

The CiiATinrAN. Go ahead. 

Mv. Ma'ithi.ws. ]Mr. Howe, liave you ever openly in a meeting 
charged Mr. Kathborne with being a Communist? 

Mr. HoAVE. I have done that many times on tlie floor of Local 2.. 

Mr. Matthews. And what happened when you did that? 

Mr. Howe. When Mr. Rathborne was present in a meeting he has 
never denied to the membership of Local 2 that he was a Communist; 
that lie was a member of the party. I have read some of these letters 
tliat liave been mentioned here. This one over here — Mr. Powers con- 
firmed this one. I read that before the membership of Local 2, and 
accused Mr. Rathborne of being a Communist and a party member 
and he didn't get out of his seat to reply to that. I might say the 
same thing about Joe Curran, president of the National Maritime 
Union. He came down to Local 2 to put me on the spot several 
times, and I made that accusation to him and to Blackie Meyers and to 
Roy A. Pyle and none of them denied it point blank. 

The Chairman. You mean by that that they were present at a 
public meeting of the union ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

The CnAiR^rAx. And that you charged Rathborne with being a 
Communist and read letters to show it and that he did not deny your 
charge ? 

Mr. Howe. He did not deny it. He did not get up to defend him- 
self by saving a single word and that was enough for me. It was 
enough for the membership of Local 2 to believe and they do so be- 
lieve, nine-tenths of the members of the A. R. T. A., Local 2 right 
today believe that Mervyn Rathl)orne is not only a Communist, but 
that he is a member of the i^arty because they were there at these 
various meetings when the charges were made and he failed to defend 
himself at all. 

The Chairman. Well, was there any reason that he should fail to 
defend himself? I mean by that, did he undertake to treat it as su 
joke or did the members treat it that way. Were the charges treated 
seriously ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; they were with a serious meaning and it may have 
been due to the fact that I produced some of his old letters and he per- 
haps tliought I had other things that I could produce also that he 
hesitated. 

Tlie Chairman. Any other reason? 

]\Ir. Matthews. Now, Mr. Howe, will you please answer this ques- 
tion : Wlio was it again who recommended Mr. Rathborne for the 
presidency ? 

Mr. Howe. Mr. Rathl)oi-ne was recommended to the membership- 
of the jNfaritime Division of A. R. T. A. by Mr. Hoyt Haddock. 

INIr. Matthews. He was the retiring president, was he? 

Mr. Howe. Retiring president and took a job as labor adviser for 
the Standard Oil of New Jersey. 

^Ir. Matthews. Now. was Haddock a known Communist? 

Mr. Howe. Haddock was a known Communist, the same as Rath- 
borne is toda}- and I have proof from Haddock's own words to me. 



7990 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

He invited me out to lunch. We had a discussion about the subject of 
communism and it became quite heated. Mr. Haddock tokl me that a 
man who was not a Comnuinist — ])ardon me — "was a damn fooL" 
They are the very words that Hoyt Haddock used to me. 
■ Mr. Matthews. Now. durino- the summer of 1937. did Rathborne 
receive any substantial sum of money from John L. Lewis for organ- 
izing purposes ? 

Mr. Howe. Rathborne received more than $100,000 from John L. 
Lewis' organization for the purpose of organizing the communication 
workers, mainly in the Postal Telegraph, a little bit of Western 
Union, and a great deal for the longshoremen of the Atlantic coast 
and the Gulf. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that a matter of record in the publications of 
theA. C. A.? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. That may be seen by reading the financial re- 
ports published in the A. G. A. News. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, did Rathborne engage organizers for organ- 
izing in accordance with the purpose of this donation? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. Rathborne hired a great many organizers. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know any of the organizers that Rathborne 
engaged ? 

Mr. Howe. I know most all of those who were engaged in the com- 
munications field. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that Ratlil)orne did or did not make 
it a point to engage only organizers who were Commimists or sym- 
pathetic to the Communist Party line? 

Mr. Howe. As far as we coidd determine he did not hire anyone who 
was not a Communist — all of his organizers were Communists. 

Tlie Chairman. The committee is now sitting as a subcommittee. I 
will make the statement for the sake of the record. We have been this 
afternoon as a subcommittee. I think that statement was made this 
morning. The subcommittee is composed of the chairman. Mr. Mason, 
the gentleman from New Mexico, Mr. Dempsey. 

Proceed. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Will you please name some of the organizers whom 
you know to be Comnuniists who were employed by Ratliborne in this 
campaign of organization? 

Mr. Howe. Joseph Belleza. T. J. Van Erman. 

Mr. Matthp:ws. Did he employ Al Lannon? 

Mr. Howe. Al Lannon, I believe was on his pay roll. Al Lannon is a 
Communist and writes for the Daily Worker frequently. 

Mr. Matthews. The previous witness testified he was a member of 
the Communist Party. 

Mr. Howe. Mr. Al Lannon was engaged in organizing the longshore- 
men mainly, and he was publishing a small paper called The Shape Up, 
for the benefit of the longshoremen and Local A. R. T. A. contributed 
money quite frequently to this shape-up — $5 and $10 at a time to keep 
it going. 

Mr. Matthews. Now. was Rathborne one of the chief organizers of 
the New York INIaritime Council ? 

Mr, How^E. Yes, sir. He was one of the chief organizers. 

Mr. Matthews. Wio was the secretary of that Maritime Council? 

INIr. Howe. The secretary was Thomas Ray, of the National Mari- 
time Union, and is well-known to be a Communist. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7991 

Mr. Matthews. Is Thuiuas Kay genorally known to be a Communist ? 

Mr. Howe. I think everyone along the New York water front knows 
that he is. He doesn't deny that. 

Mr. Mattiikws. Well, was Kay compelled to resign from the secre- 
taryshij) of the Xew York ^laritime Council because of charges of 
being a Communist^ 

Mr. Howe. I believe he resigned because of his failure to do any- 
thing. T opposed his reelection and voted against the continuation of 
the council and another delegate from the National Maritime Union 
did the same thing and he resigned, and we closed up the council. 

Mr. Mattihews. Do you know who Kathborne's organizers are on 
the west coast at the present time ? 

Mr. Hoave. Dou.glas Ward is one. He is out in Frisco at the present 
time. Clare Brown is in Chicago. He is organizing for Western Union. 
He is a Communist and member of the party. Joseph Selly, I might 
say that I believe everyone of the vice presidents are on the pay roll 
as organizers. 

Mr Matthews. Did Rathborne employ a publicity man by the 
nanieof TedSittell? 

]Mr. Howe. Yes. Ted Sittell was quite popular among the Com- 
nuniist element. He was trying to convert non-Communists to the 
faith and he was hired by Rathborne to act as publicity agent. He 
vas quite able to get Ratliborne's name in the paj^er very often. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you spoke of Roy A. Pyie, the first vice 
president of the Marine Division of the A. C. A. Did you identify 
him as a Communist this morning? 

^Iv. Howe. I believe I did. He is one anyhow ; if I didn't do it I 
will do it now. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Pyle haA'e anythmg to say when you accused 
Eathlxjiiie and his international executive board of being Com- 
munists I 

Mr. Howe. I made a slip of the tongue one day while I was mak- 
ing a s])eech before the membership, and I accused the entire inter- 
national executive board of being Communists. Pyle got up and 
said : '*I would like to have you dare to accuse Lenne Old and Harold 
Taylor of being Communists." He only mentioned those tw^o, leav- 
ing everyone to believe that all of the rest of them were Communists, 
including Pyle. 

^fr. ^Matthews. Were there seven others? 

Mr. Howe. There were nine members altogether. We called them 
the "nine old men." 

Mr. IVIatthews. When you said "the entire executive board were 
Communists" his reply was that he challenged yoti to accuse these 
two men of being Communists, is that correct? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. And he did not deny that he was a 
Commuui':t. 

]\Ir. Mattheavs. Well, Avas there ever any occasion when Pyle was 
asked to sign an affidavit respecting his own political affiliations? 

]Mr. Hoaa'e. We Avere trying to iniite the C. I. O. radio officers' 
union Avith that of the A. F. of L., and we elected a committee to 
sit with a similar committee of the C. T. U. Pyle was elected as an 
alternate delegate. Not being a member of Local 2, he was not 
allowed to serve. He came to me and practically begged me to be 

94931 — 40— vol. 13 21 



7992 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

allowed to go along and I told him that we all believed that he was 
a Communist, member of the party, and the C. T. U. would not 
meet with the Communists on the committee. So Pyle said : "Whj", 
that is foolish; I am not a Communist." And I said, "Well, I will 
tell you what you do, Mr. Pyle. You go dcnvn to the next floor 
below before a notary public and make out an affidavit that you are 
not a Communist ; that you are not a member of the party, that you 
never were such, sign that and swear to it and bring it back to m© 
and I will do all I can to get you on this committee so that you 
can go along with us.'" 

And Pyle refused to do that. Might also say that Hoyt Haddock 
only about 2 weeks ago refused to do that very thing in my pres- 
ence — refused to put themselves on record that they are not such. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you frequently criticized the Communist 
Party and the Communists for their activities in the union? 

Mr. Howe. I was a severe critic of that all the time. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you been denounced by Rathborne for "red- 
baiting" because 3'ou criticized the Communist Party? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. I was denounced many times hj him and by 
others for ''red-baiting." 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Howe, I wish to show you some com- 
munications. Here is a letter dated June 2, 1938, addressed to 
"Dear Brother Howe," and signed by J. E. Croney. Did you i-eceive 
that communication from J. E. Croney ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; I did. * 

Mr. Matthews. And will you please identify it for the record? 

Mr. Howe. Mr. J. E. Croney is the second vice president of the 
Marine Division of A, C. A. 

Mr. Matthews. Then you received this comnumication in con- 
nection with your duties as secretarj^-treasurer of the A. R. T. A., 
did you ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

The following is important : Safer informs me that Comrat Joe Thomas of 
Port Arthur fame is now in New York. He made one trip on a Lykes ship 
to Puerto Rico, and upon return to Beaumont the shij) layed up. He hung 
around Port Arthur for a short while, and then disappeared from sight. There 
is a likelihood the C. P. has sent him to N(»w York f(n- a course of Commie 
intrigue in the workers' school and what next. 

Now, I show you another letter dated June 9, 1938. Did you re- 
ceive this communication from Croney? 

(Handing paper to the witness.) 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In connection with your duties as secretarj"- 
treasurer of Local 2? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

Firstly, I want you to observe the Baltimore minutes of May 28rd. Observe 
the resolution blasting the membership of this Local for time worn Red-baiting. 
Observe the resolution blasting the members of Local No. 5 for being in the 
same category of the C. T. U. Well did you ever stop to realize that there 
never would have been any monstrosity such as the CTU if it had not been 
for the rule or ruin policy of the comrats? Did you ever stop to realize that 
the c<nnrats run the unions by a small minority clique of commies and commie 
stooges. Now it certainly is very obvious who the Rathborne stooges are. Of 



UN-AMERICAN I'ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7993 

coursp the most faithful art' the oid Commissars Van Erman and the man 
from Baltimore. There are two of the most venomous rats who have con- 
stantly indoctrinated the phoney commie policy to the small clique -who quite 
complacently raise their hands to vote anyihin^ the cliciue puts over. 

Now here is the situatittn. This local is spending every cent for the pur- 
pose of building a decent Local. With instructions from the membership we 
are not paying any more mon(>y to the national. 

And what local does lie refer to in that? 

]Mr. HcnvE. That is L()C';>1 Xo, 5, New Orleans. 

]Mr. ^Matthews. "Did you ever stop to realize tltat we have never 
actually paid a bona fide per capita to onr national." Now, why is 
that ? Mr. Croney says that the Local in New Orleans has refused to 
pay to the natiorial. 

Mr. IlowE. Well, he refused to pay because he thou^rht the money 
was being spent for subversive purposes by the national office of 
A. C. A. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. I show you a communication dated — addressed to 
Brothers Howe and Barro. 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive this communication from Mr. 
Croney ? 

]\lr, Howe. That is right, I did. 

Mr. Matthews. I read you a paragraph: 

In conclusion let me tell you that I had a long talk with the Regional 
Director of the CIO for Alabama yesterday. He says John Lewis is fed up 
with the comrat.s. I asked him why the hell did he keep them on the payroll 
in non-elective positions. The only excuse is "it is a long range program." 

I show you a communication dated only ''Wednesday afternoon."" 
Did you receive that letter from Mr. Croney? 
(Handing paper to the witness.) 
Mr. Howe. Yes. 
Mr. Matt'hews. I quote a portion of the letter: 

I am so damned mad today that I cannot think straight. I may as well 
tell you that I am reaching the end of my rope with the damned commie blanks. 
It is becoming too much for me. Personally I do not understand how decent 
people can carry along with them, but I am sending rhis in supplication that 
you do not resign at this time. You must realize that the real members of 
ARTA are on the .ships and they will back you up. The comrats remain on 
shore ; they live like rats in a sewer ; wait to pack the meetings, and you will 
continue to have trouble as long as Rathburne remains in the national which, 
of course, he will, because thei'e is no opposition to oust him. 

Mr. Casey. Who is that letter from? 

Mr. Matthews. This is from Mr. J. E. Croney, the secretary of 
local 5 of the American Comnnmications Association, in NeAv Orleans, 
rtddressed to Mr. Howe, secretary of local 2 in New York City. 

If we are to just take them in to please the wishes of the Commissar chieftains, 
such as Curriin. IMease send mt' a letter to my house. For God's sake do not 
turn over the Local to the C. 1'. at this time. It is evident that the national 
will be in complete hands of the C. 1*. .lordan is a C. P. Seily and the rest of 
the gang. 

I show you a letter dated August 1. 1938. Did you receive that com- 
nnmication fr(mi Mr. Croney [handing paper to the Avitness] ^. 
Mr. HoAVE. Yes, sir; I did. 
Mr. Matthews (readijig) : 

I hope you fellows will not arouse the comrats to dupe you into any com- 
promise. Their honor is that of a skunk and any terms liiey make will not 



7994 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

be maintained. The mistalie right along has not been to denounce the rats 
a long time ago. We have no intention of allowing Jordan ro do any coordinating 
in this neck of the woods. 

I show you another letter dated March 13, 1939. Did you receive 
this communication from Mr. Croney [handing paper to the witness] ? 
Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; I did. 
Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

I want all of you to understand that there is no retreat so far as I am 
Ijersonally concerned, not even if the ACA gets control of the contracts. My 
decision is absolutely irrevocable. I shall never return to the ACA which is 
controlled by the worst kind of dictatorship that has ever been used in tlie 
American labor movement. It will take time for the members to realize the 
audacity of these comrat fakirs. These same rats who raved up and down 
the country a few years ago about the ISU dictatorship are even now worsje 
than they. Their international executive board is the same thing as tlie ISU 
executive board. I cannot see the difference. 

Here is a communication dated New Orleans, La., Jidy 1, 1938. 
Did you receive this letter from Mr. Croney [handing paper to the 
witness] ? 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

I am still suffering from the shock at reading your letter. To imagine you 
would waste any time with one of the most monstrous fakirs in the Uibor 
movement. One of the most dangerous comrats in this country. Sleek, 
hypocritical politician Comrade Hoyt Haddock. Tlie curly haired boy of 
Standard Oil Company. 

The Chairman. Just a second, please. Let me announce a change 
in the subcommittee. The subcommittee is now composed of the 
chairman, the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Casey, and Mr. 
Mason. Proceed. 

Mr, Matthews (reading) : 

Well, I will be darned. And this comrat is actually very perturbed and 
worried about the Gulf and ARTA in this Gulf. 

And on page 2 of this letter : 

You know damn well that CIO, ACA. C. P. was rammed down the throats 
of the members. You know that the Itoys on the ships are lead to do things 
that they know nothing about. I also see CIO as okay but not to be dominated 
and run by comrats, and there is no denying the fact that the whole damn 
sheebang is being run by them and the pie-card fakirs such as Brophy are just 
riding the gravy train. 

On page 3 of the same letter : 

If John Lewis continues to adhere to the policy of using the" comrats to or- 
ganize with the asinine idea in liis head that he can throw them out, he is going 
to tind himself holding the bag and it won't be very long either. 

Here is a communication dated April 2, 1938, signed by J. E. Croney. 
Did you receive this communication from Mr. Croney [handing paper 
to the witness] ? 

Mr. Howe, Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

From an unimpeachable source I know that he was kicked out from the 
grand and noble fraternity of Elks last summer. 

What are the "Elks," Mr. Howe? 
Mr, Howe. The Elks are the Communists. 

]Mr. Matthews. That was a slang way of referring to the Com- 
munists, was it? 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7995 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

]\lr. Matthews. In your coinniuiiications with Mr. Croney? 

Mr. HoAVE. I never used that term. 

The Chairman. Why did you use that term? If there was an anti- 
Communist organization, it^ is the Elks. Why did you use that 
term ( 

Mr. Howe. I never used it myself but it is used by men like 
Croney. That is what he meant. 

]Mr."^rAsox. In all probability it is used because the Elks is a 
oreat American institution and 'they wanted to ridicule that insti- 
tution bv pervertino- the use of that name. 

:Mr. Matthews. Quoting again from page 3 of this letter: 

I warn you to be careful. There are more stooges in the Elks than Elks. 
The real truth is they do not care if you belong or not, so long as you pack 
the line and carry out the change of line whenever the great master desires 
to do so. At the present time the Elks are further to the right than any 
group. They are secretly sponsoring war. They are sponsoring collective se- 
curity. They are Red Fascists and I go on record as denouncing them for 
being the most dangerous element in the labor unions today for the purpose 
of railroading us into a war which will mean the end of our democracy. 

Mr. ]Masox. What is the date on that letter? 

:Mr. :Matthews. Tliat was dated April 2, 1938, at a period, obvi- 
ously, when the Communist Party was in favor of collective security. 

I 'show you another communication dated January 2, 1938. Did 
you receive this from Mr. Croney [handing paper to the witness] ? 
[ Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; I did. 

]\Ir. ^Iatthews (reading) : 

Now. here is something that might interest you: I have had several photo- 
static copies of letters exposing Mr. Pyle as a comrat since 1935 to 1936. At 
that time he was in the Communist Party with Haddock and Rathborne. Bliss 
was the big shot at that time. When Pyle on plans from the Communist Party 
made a damn mes.s in the 193.5 east coast operators' strike, putting over one 
hundred fifty radio men on the bricks to no avail, and subsequently caused 
the loss of 'the entire UFCO membership, this little fakir Pyle was on the 
spot pretty bad. The Communist Party wanted Haddock, Bliss, Pyle to resign 
and Rathborne and .Tordon were supposed to come east and take over. These 
were instructions from Earl Browder himself, but these good comrats would 
nor obey orders. They refused to quit. Later Ratty was run for president. 
Haddock, becoming st;ilp on the C. P. stuff, wormed his way into a stoogf 
job with the Standard Oil Co.. still keeping in C. P. good books. Haddock 
is the cagiest and most imscrupulous man among them, if you don't happen to 
know it. I had received this dope from a guy who was in tlie C. P. at that 
time but never really believed mttch of what this crackpot told me. It was 
with great surprise therefore when .Tordon who came here last .July and in the 
presence of his wife in a cafe told me that he was one of the boys who went 
to see Browder with Haddock. Pyle, and Bliss. Jordon told me he had jitst 
hooked up with tlie C. P. at that time but when Pyle, Haddock, and Bliss 
refused to resign upon advice of Browder, he never took any active part in 
the Communist Party from there on. He held a book btit refused to go down 
the lin(^ at times. Hiul nor held a Communist Party book since the early 
spring of 19'.iS. I know it to be a fact the commies never trusted .Tordon very 
much. Jordon, more of a ranlv and filer, and leaning more toward democracy 
would buck them at times with the result they called him an "opportunist." 
One well-knov.-n comrat who used to come here on a Swayne and Hoyt ship 
had liuich with me one day and lie blasted the hell out of .Tordon. Neverthe- 
less things began to get so critical with the communists shortly bpf(»re the 
1936 to 1937 strike that they were careless with their trusted lieutenants. 
They started the system of using any man they could find as a stooge. In 
other words, they became careless. One brother, a rookie in the Communist 
Party who is now a member of this local, dropped into the national office 
one afternoon and found Roy Hudson, Haddock and Pyle working over the 



7996 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

uationars ledger. Roy Huclsdii, ppiitil in hand, was figuring out how they 
were going to cover up several hundred dollars of the money which had been 
spent. If my memory does not fail me I think there was a miscellaneous 
statement in the ARTA Bulletin for June 1935, showing something like $498.75 
marked up to "Miscellaneous." This money was covered up by the unholy 
three : Haddock, Hudson, and Pyle. Believe Bliss was in on it also. This 
fellow as stated above is a member of local 5. 

Will you please identify for the i-ecoid at this point who Roy 
Hudson is? 

Mr. Howe. Roy Hudson is an. organizer for tlie Communist Party 
He did have charjie of the waterfront section of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Matihews. Now, I sIioav you a communication dated March 7, 
1939. Did you receive this from Mr. Croney [lianding paper to the 
witriess] ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. IMatthews. I read a ])araoraph from page 1 : 

The following information is the truth and nothing but the truth. After the 
193.J ARTA Convention held in December of th^tt year, Mr. Haddock cancelled 
the ARTA New York charter, and from that time ARTA was a charterless 
organization, pending atliliation with the A. F. of L. by merger with the mori- 
bund Capital Commercial Telegraphers' Union. But the Communist Party 
line at that time, as you know, was to capture the A. F. of L. so the faithful 
followers of the Party decided that we should merge into the CTU as a part of 
that organization. In the spring of 1986 a referendum of ARTA was taken and 
by astute propaganda the ma.iority of ARTA members voted to affiliate with 
the A. F. of Tj. by merger with the CTI^. But in brief the C!TU hnirning of our 
notorious conununist nfilcialdom arbitrarily refused to take the ARTA as a part 
of CTU. All through 1936 ARTA continued to operate as a cliarterless 
organization. 

Was it true that the C. T. U. declined to accept the proposed 
merofer ? 

Mr. Howe. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a letter dated July 23, without a year, 
addressed to "Brother Howe." and signed ''J. E. C." Did you receive 
this from Mr. Croney [handing paper to the witness] ? 

Mr. Howe. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. I read : 

Earl Browder called Hadd(>ck, Pyle, Rathborne, Bliss, and myself to his office. 
We had quite a hot conference there. The decisions were that botli Haddock and 
Pyle were to resign inunediately and Ratliborne and myself were to come east 
and take over. 

I show you one final letter dated November 7, 1938. Is this a 
letter from Mr. Croney [handing paper to the witness] ? 
Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Matthews (reading) : 

In conclusion we come to the point. If the policy of our future is to be laid 
down by a Rathborne or a Rotham, or a Van Erman, it naturally will be the 
Communist Party line. 

Mr. Chairman, I ask that these letters be acce])ted in evidence and 
marked as exhibits. 

The Chairman. They will be received in evidence. 

(The letters referred to by Mr. Matthews were marked "Howe 
Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, o, 8, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13," and made 
a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. From the New York Times of Sunday, May 9. 1937, 
1 read a portion of an article entitled "Group hears plan to resist 



UX-AMKUK'AX I'rv01'A< JAXr>A ACTTVITir.S 7997 

T'niteil States M;ir — Women Shoi^pers' Leaaue is told at luncheon 
maritime workers a^Tee on course — Store union plans told — Mrs. Eli- 
nore Herrick emjihasizes need of oettino- nil facts on both sides of 
controversy." 

Those are the headlines and the article follows: 

Maritime worlicrs throughout the country are opposed to war and if necessary 
will use their organized power to prevent this country from engaging iu a 
foreign contiict. Merv\ n Kathliorne, president of the American Radio Telegraph- 
ists' Association, ship radio group, asserted yesterday. 

^Ir. Rathhorne, who was active in the i-ecent maritime strike on the west coast 
as secretary of the San Francisco Bay area district council of the Pacific Maritime 
Federation, spoke at the first annual luncheon of the League of Women Shoppers 
iu the Tov.-n Hall <'lul). 

Mr. Rathtiorue said the Pacific :\Iaritinie Federation has adopted a resolution 
opposijig war and he predicted that all other maritime workers would endorse a 
similar course at a national maritime convention i^lauued for this summer. They 
would agree not to handl(> v.-ar materials, he said. 

Mr. l{athborne urged the women shoppors to refuse to sail on vessels whose 
employes" unions are not recognized by the shipowners. He asked also that the 
League of ^^'omen Shoppers support the unionized maritime workers i)oUtically. 

Mary Hillyer. member of the league's hoard, who presided, assured Mr. Rath- 
borne of the league's cooperation. 

Mrs. Clarina Michelsoii. organizer of the Department Store Emplo.ves Union, 
Local H'dO, expressed confidence that "in a very short while with the cooperation 
of cojisumers and workers, the 5- and 10-cent and department store workers will 
be organized ](10 per cent." She said "the consumer has a decisive role to play" 
in organizing the store workers. 

Mrs. Eliuore M. Herrick. regional director of the National Labor Relations 
P.oard. said the (Soveriunent's new powers with respect to labor "must be exer- 
cised wisely and with restraint." She said "it behooves any one going into the 
catises of industrial disputes to be careful and make an effort to get the facts on 
both sides." 

Miss Leane Zugsmith, writer and member of the league's board, spoke on the 
need for a greater membership in the league. 

Now. Mr. Howe, I should like to read you portions of a communica- 
tion which this committee has received from a member of the A. C. A., 
and since he is not present, I will ask you if you can verify his state- 
ments or if you wdsli to correct them in any way in the light of j-our 
own inforniati(m. 

The CHAiiarAX. "Why not just ask him certain questions based upon 
that — if he knows certain things were true. 

Mr. Mattiifavs (reading) : 

To start with I am a slii]» radio operator and have been one for 12 years. I 
hold membershii) 

The Ch.xirmax. Just a second. There are certain comnninications 
whicli the committee receives which I do not think should be made 
public for various reasons so we will exclude that. 

Mr. Casey. He can use it as a base for questioning. 

The Chairm.\N". Yes, as a basis for questioning, but a great many 
people write this connnittee with the understanding that nothing thej^ 
^Ry will be made public or be used in any sense that might trace it to 
them. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. This comnumication states that the opinion 
of the author 

The Chairmax. Just ask him certain questions based on it. If it 
contains certain information, ask him if that information, without, 
readinc: anything that might dividge who the man is or anything 
about it. 



7998 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you stated that the A. C. A. was 100-percent 
dominated by the Communist Party, is that correct ? 

Mr. Howe. I forget whether I said 99 or 100, but it is very close 
to 100 percent. 

Mr. Matthews. Is your conviction based upon your connections 
with the A. C. A. and' your knowledge of Communist tactics in the 
trade unions with which you have had experience for a number of 
years, that the A. C. A. being under the domination of the Com- 
munist Party represents a "Trojan horse" for the Communists in a 
field of vital concern to the national safety of this country? 

Mr. Howe. Yes. One cannot be inside of the A. C. A, or any 
similar organization any lengtli of time without feeling that some- 
thijig is wrong somewhere. When you try to investigate what is 
wrong, you inevitably come to the fact that these men who do cer- 
tain thiiigs, that the rest of us do not do, belong to the Comnuuiist 
Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you heard in your conversations with mem- 
bers of the union that the Communist Party maintains up and down 
the coasts of the United States short-wave receiving radio stations? 

Mr. Howe. I have heard it said that 

Mr. Casey. We must not go into the field of what you have heard 
said. If you know something about it we would like to have it. 

Mr. Howe. To my knowledge I don't know of their existence. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you would not be able to locate one in the 
light of your own connection, is that correct ? 

Mr. Howe. No. My position in the union did not give me time 
to do such kind of work. 

Mr. Matthews. I think that is all the questions I have, Mr. 
C]i airman. 

Mr. Casey. I wasn't here this morning, but I notice in the paper — 
you are Mr. Howe, aren't you? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Casey. I noticed in the paper a statement that you have seen a 
man named Stano — is that the way you pronounce his name — Stano? 

Mr. Howe. Yes; Stano. 

Mr. Casey. In the radio room of the yacht .Sea Cloudy owned by 
Joseph B. Davies, and you identified him as a Communist. 

Mr. How-E. Yes; I stated that. 

INIr. Casey. How do you know he is a Communist ? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I know it from the facts I have given here 
today. 

Mr. Casey. What? 

Mr. Howe. From the facts I have given here today — my testimony 
here today and based upon m}' experience in the A. E. T. A., Local 2 ; 
from my talks with ]\Ir. Stano, his actions, what others have told 
me about him and also how he became a member of A. R. T. A., 
Local 2. He became a member in a very suspicious way and he was 
made a member without my knowledge or consent in my absence. 
He was placed upon the unemployed list by a man — I don't want 
to mention the man's name if I am not compelled to — ^by a man who 
I firmly believe is a member of the party — who was an official of 
the union at that time. 

Mr, Casey. Did you ever see Stano at a meeting of the Communist 
Party? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7999 

Mr. Howe. Oli, ves — at the Coniinunist Party, no. At the 
A. R. T. A. local. 

Mr. Casey. And did yon handle his membership card? 

Mr. Howe. Xo. That was handled by someone else who took 
him in. 

Mr. Casey. Xow, you said you knew by your talks with Stano. 
Will you tell us how those talks gave you the impression that he 
was a Conmiunist? ' -'^ 

]\Ir. Howe. Well. I have just forgotten the exact nature of the 
conversation but I know that he stood for everything that Rathborne 
and Pyle and Jordan and those men stood for in the union, and was 
very much opjiosed to anj^thing th.at I stood for. And there was a 
close division there in the union. We took sides. Every man be- 
lono-ed to one side or the other. He was either with us or ao-ainst us. 

;Mr. Casey. The fact that he opposed your faction in the union is 
what gave you the impression he was a Communist ? 

Mr. Mason. Xo; the fact that they opposed the anti-Communist 
faction in the union. 

Ml". Casey. Will you let me conduct this examination for a few 
minutes. 

Mr. Mason. The fact of the matter is most of the testimony was 
given and the reasons were given this morning. 

The Chairman. ^Ir. Casey is entirely within his rights in wanting 
to find out why the man says this fellow is a Communist — what 
reason. 

Mr. Howe. We learned in local 2 that men who were not Com- 
munists were not afraid to speak up and say they were not. We had 
meetings there when men got up and testified to that eifect, that they 
were not Communists and they were proud to get tip in the meeting 
and say that they were not. Otlier men, only a small minority, about 
40 out of 500 who were Communists, refused to get up and say any- 
thing and the}' always voted the straight party ticket, so to speak. 

Mr. Casey. Xow, that is a rather negative attitude. That is, if 
they did not disclaim being Commu.nists you assumed they were. 

Mr. Howe. Well, everyone did assmne that they were. 

Mr. Casey. By the fact that they did not say they were not? 

]Nrr. Howe. They wotdd not say they were not. 

^Ir. Casey. AVell. now, have you anything positive that they ever — 
I know that they seek to hide the fact that they are Communists, btit 
have you ever heard a statement directly from Mr. Stano which wotdd 
giAe you the impression that he was a Communist? 

Mr. Howe. Well, ves. Manv statements from him that gave me 
that im]»ression. 

Mr. Casey. What were those statements? 

]\rr. Howe. Well, it has been some time since I met Mr. Stano btit 
one thing that struck me very much was that when I went aboard this 
iSea Cloud to see him; Mr. Stano and I never had any trouble — we 
never had an argument. There is no reason why Mr. Stano should 
atot shake hands with me and speak to me like almost every other 
member of A. R. T. A.. Local 2. I went aboard Mr. Stano's ship, and 
I was all but ushered off of the ship immediately without any discus- 
sion at all. 

Xow. that action for a man that has no reason to dislike me is 
strong indication of what the man reallv believes. 



gQOO UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Casey. You mean a person wlio changes his attitude toward 
you personally is evidence in your mind that he is a Communist ? 

Mr. Howe. 1 wouldn't say that it proves that he was ; no. But that 
is one of the many things that he did. 

Mr. Casey. Have you any other evidence that would lead you to the 
conclusion that he is a Connnunist ? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I mentioned the way he was taken in. 

Mr. Casey. How was that — that is not clear in my mind. 

Mr. Howe. He was taken in without my knowledge or consent. I 
Avas the secretary-treasurer. I was the man that usually supervised 
the admission of men to membership or when members transferred 
from one local to another or when a man was placed upon what we 
called the beach list — the unemployed list. 

One day I came in and I saw Stano's name on it and I inquired how 
he got on it and who he was and all about it, and the man that gave 
me the information, the man that placed him on the list didn't seem 
to want to come clean and tell me how he got on there, because I inves- 
tigated every man that had his name placed upon this list. I wanted 
to be sure he was being put on the list in strict accordance with the 
rules of the local, and I am not sure whether Mr. Stano got on this 
list in accordance with the rules of the local. That is why they wanted 
to take him in when I wasn't there. 

Mr. Casey. Did you ever question Mr. Stano about his coming into 
your union in a way not in conformity with the I'ules of the local? 

Mr. Howe. No. I questioned the man that took him in. 

Mr. Casey. Did you ever question Mr. Stano directly to find out? 

Mr. Howe. Not why he got in ; no. That would be improper, in my 
estimation. I should question the man that did actually let him come 
in and the man told me it was all right, that he was the right kind of 
a man. 

The Chairman. Now, as I understand it. in your union there was a 
constant battle between the Comnumists and the non- Communists? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

The Chairman. The lines were very sharply drawn? 

Mr. Howe. They were very sharply drawn. 

The Chairman. And in the course of that battle between the two 
forces the non-Communists learned who the members — who the Com- 
numists were ? They did not see their membership book but through 
their actions and their sui)])ort of the party line and the general issues 
whicli the}' took, it became evident to the non-Communist members who 
the others were, is that true? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

Tlie Chairman. Over a long period of time? 

Mr. HoAVE. Yes. 

The Chairman. I mean it was not just one incident? 

Mr. Howe. No. 

The Chairman. But many incidents that supported the Communist 
line, is that right? 

Mr. Howe. That is right. 

The Chairman. You knew you were one of the non-Communists in 
the group, is tliat right ? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir: I can give a good illustration of that. We had 
a man by tlie name of Pearlman — Joe Pearlman, who is a well-known 



rX-AMKKKAX PR( U'ACJANDA ACTIVITIES 8001 

Comniuiiist. He raiue into a meetinir one day and not knowing wliat 
tlie issno was about, he took my side — sj)oke in sni)i)ort of wliat I was 
speaking for. and Tomniie Ault — I mentioned liis name this mornintr, 
lie got up and turned around and looked at Pearlman and tried to tell 
him the best that he could tliat he was on the wrong side. Pearlman 
shifted over right in the middle of his talk and took the opposite when 
lie knew what the party line was — what the faction of the A. R. T. A. 
was standing for. Every i)arty member was supposed to get behind 
that ])loc and vote for it and speak for it, and they did that. 

The CHAiiarAN. Has a iion-Connnunist in a labor organization 
any other maimer of telling who the people are? They wouldn't tell 
themselves and often deny they are members of the party. They 
come before this committee and under oath deny membership in the 
l^arty and refuse to give facts. 

Xow. in dealing Avith a situation within a union it is impossible 
for those who want to rid the union of the Communist influence 
and combat it. they can't ascertain by membership books or by 
records 

!Mr. Howe. Xo. 

The Chairman. What is concealed from them. So the only way 
that union men generally in the movement can find out who are the 
Communists is largeh' through watching their tactics and their 
attitude and their positions with reference to the whole Comnmnist 
Party line, is that true? 

Mr. Howe. That is the way we learned how they stood. x\nd, of 
course, there is always someone that each Communist will tell. I was 
shown membership cards 

The Chairman. But there is always the possibility or always the 
danger that because some one disagrees — I mean you don't take the 
position because some one disagrees with you that that would neces- 
sarily mean he is a Communist? 

]\Ir. Howe. I did not wish to convey that impression. 

The Chairman. What you did say, as I understand your testi- 
mony, and if it is not true I want you to correct me, as I understand 
you there was this fight within the union between the Communists 
and the non-Communists? 

Mr. Howe. I would like to say that I got a great deal of my definite 
information from an official of A. R. T. A., Local 2, wdiose name I 
would not like to mention here, but he was an elected ojfficial of 
A. R. T. A., Local 2. and while I am not certain that he was a party 
membei", from his own statements he attended a great many meetings 
of the party higher fractions, boros, and so on, and he told me who 
the members were. 

The Chairman. Now. why would he tell yon who the members 
were if he was a member of the party? 

Mr. Howe. Because of the peculiar nature of this particulai- indi- 
vidual. He was one of what we call a fence rider — he was straddling* 
both sides of tlie fence and he was giving me a certain amount of 
information and I ])resume he was doing the same to the otlier side. 

Mr. Casey. Why do you want to defend that particular individual 
here ? 

Mr. Howe. Why do I favor it? 

Mr. Casey. No. Why do you want to defend him? Why so 
anxious to cloak his name with secrecy? 



8002 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Howe. I would not like to disclose my reason unless I am 
compelled to. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question. 

The Chairman. You should have some strong reason because yoi] 
haven't had any hesitancy in designating other people as Communists. 
Unless you have some plausible and strong reason the chair is unable 
to understand why you would withhold this man's name. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question or two? 

Mr. Howe, in your constant, persistent eHorts over a long period of 
time to rid your union of the Communists and to block their pro- 
gram, you of course met violent opposition from certain members of 
your union, did you not? 

Mr. Howe. Met violent opposition? 

Mr. Mason. Yes. 

Mr. Howe. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. And naturally you would conclude that those who 
opposed your efforts to rid the union of its communism and its Com- 
munist element would naturally either be Communists or Communist 
sympathizers ; is that right ? 

Mr. Howe. I don't think I ever took that view. I tried to take 
the broader view and if I thought the man was not a Communist I 
talked to him, and some men whom I suspected, after a discussion 
they came around to our way of thinking, and I no longer thought 
those men were Communists. But I always gave a man the benefit of 
the doubt. 

]SIr. Mason. Now I want to come to this man Stano. You, in your 
union meetiiigs, at which these arguments pro and con over the 
Communist line, and so forth, met this man Stano in these union 
meetings before you went aboard that sloop? You met him con- 
stantly over a period of time, did you ? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I don't think I ever knew Stano very much. 
In fact, I don't know him very much now. Until he actually came 
into local 2, then he did attend a few meetings and he was around 
the hall waiting like other men did for jobs — for a job. 

Mr. jMason. Now, in local 2 and in the meetings, what part did 
Stano take in these dift'erences of opinion over this party contro- 
versy ? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I don't recall now any. He took part like the 
other members. 

Mr. Mason. Did he line up Avith tlie minority group who were 
opposed to the Communist element, or did he line up with the other 
grou j) ? 

Mr. Howe. He lined up with the Communists at all times. 

Mr. Mason. With the Communists? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir; at all times. 

Mr. Mason. Then by his actions in these union meetings, lining up 
with the Communist group against those who wanted to eradicate 
those groups from the union, you would judge from his actions that 
he was one of that group, would you not? 

Mr. Howe. Well, I wouldn't base my conclusions on that alto- 
gether. If I didn't have T)ther reasons for believing it, which I told 
you about the man that took him in, gave me an idea that he was. 

Mr. Mason. Well, all I can say is if you cannot get their cards and 
membership, and they lie about their membership, then the only 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8003 

thiuiT you can do is to judge by their actions and their efforts and 
that is <i'ood enoufxh for nie. 

Mr. Howe. Well, it is good enough for me. T don't suppose that 
would go in a court of law, but you can never get these men to 
admit tliat they arc and if you would go on that alone there wouldn't 
be any Comnuuiist I'arty. 

The Chairman. On the other hand, you had reasons for griev- 
ances of your own. You engaged in a fight and you were elected 
secretary. You say you are still the legally elected secretary, but you 
say you were forcibly thrown out of the union by this goon-squad 
method ; you were expelled from the union. Therefore you have con- 
siderable feeling in the matter. Would you permit those feelings to 
influence you in your testimony? Would it be possible for you to 
naturally feel very much aggrieved with people who don't agree with 
you ? 

yiv. HcnvE. I Avould like to state that I got up on the floor of local 
2 in the winter of 1937. during our strike, and after the strike was 
o^•er, and actually defended the Communists. Others were "red- 
baiting"' then when I was against ''red-baiting,'' but I wasn't afraid 
to tell the membership that I was not a Comnuuiist. But I did say 
I believed a Comnumist had as much a right to be in a labor union 
as anyone else. But I didn't know when I said that, defending th« 
Communists, that I was putting myself on the spot for the future 
because then there became a vei'y definite degree of coolness toward 
me on the part of the Comnnmists and they began to show that more 
and more as time went on and the more they showed it the more the 
other members supported me, so finally at the last election I got all 
the votes except 25 — left only 25 real dyed-in-the-wool Communists 
who voted against me. But the fight became more and more bitter 
from that time on until I was finally throAvn out by them. 

Mr. Casey. Did Stano ever get up on the floor and speak in behalf 
of the Connnunists? 

Mr. IIowE. I don't recall that he ever did. 

Mr. Casey. Did Stano or was Stano one of those 24 or 25 who 
voted against you? 

Mr. ILnvE. I could not say that. The vote was secret. We don't 
know who voted. 

Mr. Casey. You say Stano lined up with the Communists, Now, 
you say you don't recall that he ever spoke in favor of any measure 
they backed. You don't know whether he voted for any measures 
if it was a secret vote. "\Muit do you mean when you say "he lined 
II]) with the Com.munists"? 

Mr. Howe. Well, when I say secret vote — when we elect officers 
we elect tliem by a referendum vote that takes 90 days, because we 
have to Avait until our men get back from their foreign voyages, 
so they vote bv mail or they can come in and place or go to the post 
office where these ballots were returned to a post-office box and 
de])osit their ballot there. But at every membership meeting avc also 
took up certain questions where the men voted. Every Tuesday we 
had a membership meeting but we didn't elect any officers there. We 
were discussin<r the policy of the local. 

Supiwsing now the American League for Peace and Democracv 
came down there and Mr. Van Taine^it was done in this way. He 
v.ould call me on the telephone and ask me if he could come down 



3004 un-americajS' propaganda activities 

there Tuesday to make a speech. At first I told him that I wasn't 
running" the union ; if lie wanted to come down there at a membership 
meetinir. I would let the members vote on whether or not he could 
sj^eak. So he would come down. He would get up there for a second 
and then the members would vote on whether they wanted him to 
speak. They mi^ht ask him to go outside while "they debated the 
matter. 

Well, those debates became hot over little things like that. So 
when everybody kncAv that the American League was a Communist 
front organization, any man who supported it when he should know 
that, know what it was, Avhy, we suspected that he was inclined to 
be a Commmiist. Things like that. That is only one illustration. 
Ilnd lots of other causes — Spanish democracy. 

Mr. Casey. I confess I don' see the connection between your nswer 
and my question. 

Mr. Howe. Perha])s I forget what the question was. 

Mr. INIatthews. I think there was a misunderstanding about your 
question. When you asked Mr. Howe if they voted against him 
did that mean they were men being voted on for elective office or 
on the question of I'esolutions. 

Mr. Howe. I am talking about the policy of the local. 

Mr. Casey. My question was: In what way did Stano line up with 
tile Comunists, because you use that phrase. 

Mr. Howe. Well, at the membership meetings where the policies 
of the local were framed — 

Mr. Matthews. And the voting was not secret on those policies. 

Mr. Casey. And the voting was not secret ? 

Mr. Howe. Xo. They voted by a show of hands. 

Mr. Casey. You saw him raise his hands in op])osition or in support 
of policies supported by the Communist Pai-ty? 

Mr. Howe. lie always followed the Communist Party line. 

Mr. Casey. Now, do you recall any })r()minent measures that were 
communistic that he supported? I don't want to go back through 
it all. Give us the outstanding one in your mind. 

Mr. Howe. Nothing in particular, but there were many things 
that came up during that period when he was there. One I think 
was the famous auditing conmiittee report which was ])repared by 
Roy Robinson, Wayne Pascal. That was brought up for the pur- 
pose of tijingito put me on the spot. They tried to make it look 
like I had stolen about $2,000 of the money. They didn't actually say 
I had stolen it but they inferred it had been s])ent — strike-fund 
money had been spent for general pu]-poses including salaries, but 
tiiat was thoroughly explained by two certified public accountants. 

Mr. Casey. You were cleared of that? 

Mr. Howe. T was. 

Ml". Casey. But what was the resolution? A resolution to investi- 
gate your activities, was it? 

Mr. Howe. No. This was a resolution that was pas.sed to elect an 
auditing committee to audit the books. So they audited the books 
and they made their report. 

Mr. Casey. Had a committee audit your books? 

Mr. Howe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Casey. And Stano voted in favor of that resolution ? 



t^ 



rX-A.MKKH'AX l'K« )I'A(;AN1 »A ArTTVTTTES 8005 

Mr. HowK. I Avoukl not say about that. I am just bringing this 
up as typical of one of the many (^uostions that were brought u}) dur- 
ing tliat period. They were trying to frame me so they coukl kick 
me out and they could never do it. And the Conununists or the men 
lined up to do that were considered by everybody as being Commun- 
ists or fellow travelers. 

The ('iiAiiniAx. Was there ever a vote of the union expelling you? 

Ml'. HowK. There was a vote of one membership meeting which 
was attended by around 20 or 21 members, only. We had 500 mem- 
bers in the local but under a provision of the constitution they could — 
they didn't have to submit that to the entire membership if they 
didn't want to. But that was 3 months after I was thrown out. 

The Chairman. You explained the circumstances of being thrown 
out. You say you were physically removed? 

Mr. IIowE. I was physically barred from entering the hall and 
office. 1 came to the office at 9 : 40 in the morning and when I went 
to open the door I was stopped from doing so by a big, six-foot, 
husk sailor and wasn't allowed to enter the hall or office of local No. 2. 

The international executive board had passed a resolution on the 
previous daj' suspending me from office, which was entirely illegal, 
without calling a membership meeting or submitting this to any mem- 
ber of the local. It was done entirely by the international officers. 

I would like to say we have a case coming up in about a week in 
the courts of Xew York City in which this whole matter will be 
tried. We still have $3,000 of the local's funds tied up which the 
comrades haven't got so far. 

The Chaikmax. Any other questions? 

Mr. Mktthews. Xo. 

Mr. Mason. Xo questions. 

The Chairman. All right, the committee will stand adjourned until 
tomorrow morning a 10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon at 3 : 45 p. m., a recess was taken until 10 a. m., Thurs- 
day, April 25, 1940.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA. 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, APRIL 25, 1940 

House of Representatives^ 

Special Committee to Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C'. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Martin Dies (chairman),, 
presiding. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, the committee will come to order. The 
Chair announces a subcommittee composed of the cliairinan, Mr. 
Dempsey, of New Mexico, and Mr. Mason, of Illinois. All right, 
proceed. Who is your first witness I 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chase. Will you take the stand, please? 

TESTIMONY OF EZRA F. CHASE 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear ta 
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help vou 
God? 

Mr. Chase. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Matthews, you may proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Please give your full make for the record. 

Mr. Chase. Ezra F. Chase. 

Mr. Matthews. What is your present address ? 

Mr. Chase. Los Angeles. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born? 

Mr. Chase. Idaho Falls, Idaho. 

]Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. Chase. February 12, 1896. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. ISIatthews. When did vou join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Chase. 1931. 

Ml'. Matthews. Will you please give a brief outline of the positions 
which you held in the Communist Party? 

Mr. Chase. During the earl;^ part of my connection in the Com- 
muinst Party I was the organizer of the unemployed work in Los 
Angeles. I was an organizer for the Communist Party. I was at one 
time the secretary of the Los Angeles branch of the American League 
Aga inst War and Fascism. I was later the organizer of the Upholster- 
ing International Union, Local 15. I was also the floor leader of the 
Communist Party— that is, one of the floor leaders in the Los Angeles 

94931— 40— vol. 13 22 8007 



g008 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Central Labor Council. I was also an officer of the Workers Ex- 
Servicemen's Leao;ue and held various functions from time to time in 
innumerable mass organizations controlled by the Conmumist Party. 

Mr. ]Mati-hews. Wlien you were a member of the Communist Party 
did your own name appear on your party membership book? 

Mr. Chase. NeA^er. 

]\[r. Matthews. What names did you use as a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. CiiASE. One of the names that I used was F. E. Shrader. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you spell that, please? 

Mr. Chase. S-h-r-a-d-e-r. 

IMr. Matthews. Did you use anotlier name? 

Mr. Chase. I also used the name of Jose Valez. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the last party name you used? 

Mr. Chase. That was the last. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it a practice for members of the Conmumist 
Party to use aliases or party names? 

Mr. Chase. Yes : it was. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was that a general practice? 

Mr. Chase. Yes ; it Avas. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Were you eA'er arrested in connection Avith your 
activities as a Communist? 

Mr. Chase. Yes: a number of times. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state some of the occasions and 
describe the incidents of your arrest in connection with your Com- 
nninist Party activities? 

Mr. Chase. My first arrest took place in 1932 in Lono; Beach, Calif. 
That Avas a section conventioii of the Connnunist l*arty. Mv next 
arrest Avas when William Z. Foster and myself attempted to speak 
at the Plaza in Los Anjxeles. I Avas later arrested Avhile conducting 
a meeting of the Workers' Exservicemen's League. I Avas arrested 
a number of times in leading groups of unemployed before the relief 
organizations in Los Angeles. Some of these resulted in quite seri- 
ous fights. I Avas arrested seA^eral times Avhile speaking on street 
corners in the city of Los Angeles. I was also arrested in connec- 
tion Avith the turning on of electricity and gas Avhere it had been 
disconnected. 

Mr. Mattheavs. You said "turning on"'? 

Mr. Chase. Turning on. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was that in connection Avith your Avork as an 
organizer for the Unemployed Councils? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was the organization knoAvn as the Unemployed 
Councils under the control of the Connnunist Party? 

INIr. Chase. It Avas. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Completely so? 

Mr. Chase. Completely. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Were you under instructions, as a member of the 
Communist Party, in the Avork Avhich you did in the I^nemployed 
Councils? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Were you under instructions to turn on gas and 
electricity ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 



rX-AMKKirA.X I'U()PA(!AXI>A ACTIVITIES 8009 

Mr. MATTiiiavs. ^^'ill you i)lease state the lesults of your arrest in 
that, case? 

Mr. C^HASE. I was sent by the (\)ininufiist Party into the Un- 
eiiii)loye(l Cooperative Eeliet" Organization, which was an unemployed 
oi'^anization of the unemployed themselves. My function in that 
oroanization was to colonize in that group and to convert this un- 
employed organization into a more militant oro;anization, carr3'ing 
forth ihe })ro<irani of the unemployed. 

This orpinization, the Unemployed Cooperative Helief, had been 
founded upon the basis of exchanojin;"- their work with various farm- 
ers for vegetables. ]My function vras to put an end to that sort of 
thing and to make the organization an organization with militant 
demands — to demand upon the county of Los Angeles and upon the 
State of California and upon the Nation that they take care of this 
problem. At this time there was considei'able turn-off of the utilities 
on the unem}doyed, and it was our {)urpose in that to show this 
organizati(Mi that these utilities and things were the property of the 
people, and t1iat through their inability to pay for them that they 
must have them just the same. And where the utility companies 
turned oti' the meters they were to be organized for the turning on of 
the meters and again using those facilities. I was arrested in this 
connection. I was charged with one count of theft of illuminating 
gas and one count of electricity, and upon my conviction I served 
a sentence of G months in the Los Angeles County jail. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Your conviction in this case was the direct result 
of instructions which vou received from the Comminiist Partv: is 
tb.at correct { 

Mr. Chase, That is correct. 

Mr. Mati'hews. I show you a mimeographed pamphlet and ask 
you if j'ou have ever .seen a copy of this [handing pamphlet to the 
witness] . 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the ''Fighting Methods and Organization 
Forms of the I^nemployed Councils''? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Issued by the national committee. Unemployed 
Councils of the United States? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. I offer this pamphlet in evidence. 

The Chahsmax. It will be received. 

(The pamphlet referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked "Chase 
Exhibit 1" and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know wiio the natioiud officers of this or- 
ganization wei'e? 

Mr. Cha.se. At the time? 

Mr. Matthev/s. At the time. 

Mr. Chase. At the time that this was issued. Herbert Benjamin 
was the nati(»nal secretary along with Emanuel Levin, Israel Amtei", 
and others who were active in it at that tTme. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 4 of this pamphlet I read the following : 

We (lu not negotiate, request, plead or l)eg. Wc orgnnize anil Dchi'iikI ! We 
(]rma7id and Fif/ht. In order to be able to demand and figbt, we must have 
the greatest possible force behind our di'mands and in our light. 



8010 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Will 3'0ii please explain how that is a part of the Communists^ 
approach to questions which involve the daily needs and interests of 
workino; peoj)le? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. Our plan at that time was to begin with small 
committees and failing to effect what we wanted with the smaller 
committees, w-e Avould move upon the relief offices with the largest 
possible committees that we could organize. Our purpose was to get 
what we demanded in there and in the event the police or law enforce- 
ment bodies were brought in there, why, it invariably went into a 

JNIr. Matthews. You mean that there was no disposition to nego- 
tiate anything on behalf of the needy unemploj^ed, is that correct ^ 

Mr. Chase. AYell, we went in with a set of demands. We woidd be 
demanding things in conformity to the program of the national 
unemployed councils. 

Of course, failing to realize those demands and upon the refusal 
by the relief authority, then we would make it known that our intent 
was to remain there in the offices until such time as those demands 
were granted. Invariably the police would be called and a riot would 
take place. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 13 of this same pamphlet there appears an 
outline of the duties of what is described as a self-defense corps. 
Was there organized such a self-defense corps under the auspices 
of the unemployed councils? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. We at all times had a defense corps. The func- 
tion of the defense corps was to protect their leader in taking these 
conmiittees before the various relief offices and also in the holding of 
street meetings, demonstrations, and so forth. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it a function of the defense corps to prevent 
by physical means or force evictions? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. When an unemployed member was evicted by the 
law, their furniture and their belongings were picked up and placed 
back in their house. This happenecl on many occasions. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please give some outline of your 
activities in connection with trade union work while you were a 
member of the Communist Party and acting under its instructions? 

Mr. Chase. I went to work in the furniture industry in Los Angeles 
and at the same time I joined the Upholsterers International Union. 

Mr. Matthew\s. When did vou go to work in the furniture industry ? 

Mr. Chase. In 1925. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go into that as a Communist Party mem- 
ber or under instructions from the Communist Party? 

Mr. Chase. Well, I had been instructed, along with the others, to 
seek employment in any of the factories in Los Angeles, and I 
did enter into the furniture industry and joined the union having 
jurisdiction over that work. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you become an organizer in that union? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. Less than a year after I became a member of 
that union I was the organizer of it. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Was it a part of your obligation as a member of 
the Communist Party to carry out the Communi.st Party instruc- 
tions in that union? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. We controlled that unicin from: the top tO' 
the bottom. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES SOU 

Mr. !Maitiiews. Did yon have ony other connections with trade- 
iniioii activities while yon were a member of the Conunnnist l^arty ? 

Mr. Chase. While I was the or«>;anizer of that nnion and even 
before that, I was the speaker — one of the speakers of the Connnnnist 
Party on the floor of the Los Angeles Central Labor Conncil. 

Mr. Matthews. AVill yon please describe how the Commnnist 
Party functioned in the Central Labor Council^ 

^Ir. Chase. We had what was styled as a pro<^ressive bloc, and 
our purpose there was to have the various local unions elect as many 
Comnnnunist delegates as possible into the central body of the 
Aniei'ican Federation of Labor, which was the Labor Council. And 
once the Commnnist became a delegate to that body he then entered 
m so-called progressive bloc where he would meet in fraction. We 
would meet from time to time, and we would also have enlarged 
caucus meetings, as we called them, where we would draw in other 
non-Con.imunist delegates who vcere partially sympathetic to the 
piogram that we were putting forth. 

This group became known as the "progressive bloc." That was so 
gtyled by the Commnnist Party tliemselves. And in this bloc we 
elected a group of floor leaders which was known as the steering 
committee. I was one of the floor leaders in this group. 

]Mr. Matthews. Appi'oximately how many members were there of 
the self-styled progressive bloc which was uiider the control of the 
Connnnnist Party in the Central Labor Conncil? 

Mr. Chase. There was actually abont 25 or 30 of ns, but we usuallv 
controlled somewhere abont 100 votes. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Out of how many members in the e]itire conncil? 

Mr. Chase. The usual attendance would be something over 200 
membei-s — possibly something close to 300. 

The Chaik:max. The chair wants to announce the presence of a 
quorum of the full connnittee : ]Mr. Casey, Mr. Dempsey. ISIr. INIason, 
and the chairman. We will now proceed as a quorum of the full 
committtee. 

Mr. ]\L\TTHEws. Did this bloc nnder the discipline of the Com- 
munist Party, even though a minority, act in such cohesion it was 
able to put over tlie party's views at times? 

^Ir. Chase. Oh, yes. We were successful any number of times in 
carrying out our resolutions and motions. 

Mr. Maithews. AVas the bloc ever charged by non-Communists 
or anti-Communists in the Central Labor Council with being ccmi- 
munistic ? 

Mr. Chase. Oh, innmerable times. It was well known. 

]Mr. Matthews. Did members of the bloc who were members of 
the Communist Party deny their Comnumist Party membership? 

Mr. Chase. Practically always. 

^Iv. ■VTatthews. Were yon known openly as a member of the 
Connn\niist Party ? 

Mr. Chase. I was known to be a Communist in there. There was 
not point in my denying it. 

Mi-. Maithews. Were there other members who were not known 
as Connnnnists^ 

Mr. Chase. Oh, yes. 

]Mr. ]VL^tthews. But who were? 

;Mr. Chase. Yes. 



8012 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. And were they under instructions to deny their 
Communist Party membership ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they under obligation to deny their Com- 
munist Party^ membership in their discipline of the Corninunist 
Party? 

Mr. Chase. Will you state that again ? 

Mr. Mat'thews. Were they under rigid obligation to deny their 
party membership? 

Mr. Chase. The Conmiunist uses every available means to cover 
up the identity and the connections with the party of some of its 
juembers while on the other hand there will be those who are in- 
structed to openly assert their membership in the Communist Party 
and to openly defend its policy. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you required, as a member of the Communist 
Party, in the Furniture AVoi-kers' Union, to make reports to the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Are Communist members of trade unions required 
to report, as a rule, on the state of things in the union? 

Mr. Chase. Well, I would say without exception. 

Mr. Matthews. What is a "top fraction" ? 

Mr. Chase. Wherever a group of Communists are working inside 
of an organization, all of the Comnnmists in there become a "frac- 
tion" and out of that general fraction the outstanding ones, those 
with greater capabilities and greater loyalty to the party, become a 
"top fraction." 

Mr. Matthews, Were you a member of a top fraction ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. I show j^ou a mimeographed document entitled 
"Resolutions and proposals adopted at Los Angeles County Conven- 
tion, March 27-28, 1937." Have you ever seen that document [hand- 
ing document to witness] ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify that as the resolutions and pro- 
posals of the Los Angeles County CouA^ention of the Communist 
Party for the dates specified? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; this is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. It is? 

Mr. Chase. That is the resolutions and their report as made up 
by the county committee. 

'Mr. Mattheavs. This is signed "Los Angeles County Committee." 
Does that mean the Los Angeles Countv Committee of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Chase. That means the Los Angeles County Committee. 

Mr. Matthews. The first report is to the California State Com- 
mittee of the Communist Party, to the central committee. 

Deab Comrades. 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. INIatthews. Now, I notice on ])age 3 of this dociiment that one 
of the couA^ention's decisions was to "organize the progressive caucus 
in the Central Labor Council " That is the progressive bloc that 
3'ou spoke of? 



UN-AMEUICAX I'KOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8013 

!Mr. C^HAsK. That was tlio <ir()np of which T was a part. 
Mr. MArriiEws. And of wliich you were a floor leader? 
Mr. Chase. That is ri<;ht. 

Mr. Matthews. Another one of the decisions passed at the con- 
vention was — 

To organize the C. L. C. frai'tioii ; C. I. O. committee fraction ami assign the 
I'.ecessary forces to the C. I. U. committee; to organize the progressive caucus 
in the Central Labor Council. 

Mr. CiiASK. In the Central Labor Coinicil; yes. 
Mr. Matthews. Resohition 8 on pat^e 3 : 

To carry through of assignments of eligible comrades to trade unions, espe- 
ci'ally to CIO unions and factories where organizational drives are beginning. 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Maithkws. Was tliat a part of the canipaian of the C<^m- 
nimiist Party to oet into the C. I. O. and control it as far as possible '< 
Mr. Chase. It was. 
Mr. Matthews. Resolution 4 on page 3 reads: 

To assign all county committee members to shop and industrial units, and 
certain soU>cted branclies ; to see that all section committee members are held 
responsible for a unit; and that every section selects one unit for concentration. 

]Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Resolution 6 on page 3 reads: 

On the basis of registration to assist units in better distribution of forces, 
with special assignments to bourgeois organizations. This to be .s^arted in 
major sections and rotate. A minimum of 100 assignments to be made. 

Can you ex})lain briefly what that means? 

^fr. Chase. Well, that would mean going outside of the trade- 
union field and delegating them into the various political organi- 
zatiojis, such as the Young Democrats or the Republican organiza- 
tions; into church groups, student bodies, and in innumerable other 
organizations made up of wliat they called the bourgeois society. 

Mr. Matthews. I notice that this is to be started in major sec- 
tions and rotate. What does that mean, "to rotate'*? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. M.vT-riiEws. Does that mean that a member is to be placed in 
one organization for a certain period and then ])ut into anotlier or- 
ganization and someone else to take his place? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; it woidd mean that. 

Mr. Matthkws. Now. on ])age 5 of this report there a])pears the 
statement 

The Chairman. Mr. Matthews, have you sufficiently identified 
that I'eport? 

Mr. ^I atthkw.s. Yes. I would like to offer it in evidence. 

The Chairman. It is received. 

(The report referred to by Mr. Matthews was marked "Chase 
Exhibit 2" and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Matthews. Tliis has been identified as the resolutions and 
proposals adopted at the Los Angeles County Convention of the 
Communist Party. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Matthew's. On page 5 there appears the following statement: 

The main activity of the Party must be directed towards rallying the entire 
population of Los Angeles behind the trade union organization drive, particn- 



8014 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

larly in those basic industries now being tackled )>y the CIO. Organization of 
these basic industries, like rubber, auto, oil, steel, aircraft, etc., will be the 
most effective force making for unity of the organized labor movement. 

Now, did the Communist Party have as a part of its strategy tlie 
special concentration of its work in basic industries? 

Mr. Chase, Yes; they did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did it aim to specialize in the mass-production 
industries as contrasted with what interest it might have in small 
industries ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; they had made great efforts to build the most 
eifective organization possible in the basic industries, which they 
considered steel, automobiles, aircraft, communication, such as that — ■ 
transportation. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give as briefly as possible the 
Communist Party's theory which underlies the special interest in the 
basic industries ? 

Mr. Chase. The Communist Party is an organization having revo- 
lutionary intent. Their purpose is to take over this form of govern- 
ment and institute one of their own. And their interest in the 
industries of the country is simply this : Through organization, if 
they can control the employees in the basic industries throughout 
the country, then they are in a position at their will to declare a 
general strike throughout the Nation, and in a general strike they 
can paralyze the industries, communication, transportation, manufac- 
turing, and so on. And out of that situation they are able to create 
that situation leading to civil war, and from civil war is a simple 
matter to convert that into revolutionary war for the overthrow of 
this system. That is, basically, their interest in trade-unions. 

Mr. Matthev/s. Let me ask you a question which you may be able 
to answer with respect to the jiarty's interest in the basic industries. 
Have you found in your experience as a Communist that if a group 
of workers in a light or small industry were even more underprivi- 
leged or had poorer working conditions than a group in a basic 
inchistry. that the party would be more interested in the workers in 
the basic industry than they would in the former? 

Mr. Chase. Undoubtedly so. The Communist Party, among our- 
selves, we seldom talked about hours, wages, and conditions. We 
saved that to be used on the floor of the union hall. But among our- 
selves we were interested in organizational work that would be the 
most beneficial to the ultimate aims of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the Communist Party's interest in 
basic industries was a political rather than an economic interest? 

Mr. Chase. Yes: that is right. 

Mr. Matthew^s. That is, instead of being concerned solely with the 
economic interests of working people, the Party is primarily con- 
cerned with the political advantage to accrue! to the party by its 
strength in a basic industry? 

Mr. Chase. A good, economic condition in the country would not 
serve the means of the Communist Party. The Communist Party, I 
again state, is interested in the building of a revolutionary situation. 

Mr. Casey. Mr. Witness, do I understand you to mean that the 
Communist Party is not interested in better working conditions or 
relief for the unemployed; they are not sincerely interested but 



Q 



UN-AMERICAN PK(>PAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8015 

iiieroly use those as a weapon with which to gain entrance to these 
labor groups? 

jNIr. Chase. The Communist Party is interested in them to this 
extent : 'J'hat they realize that a revolutionary movement can only be 
buiU among the people who have a grievance, real or imagined, or 
invented, or otherwise, and by playing upon the wages, the hours, 
and conditions, or the treatment, and such as that for the unem- 
ployed. It is only there that they can gain the oi-ganizational — 
strictl}' antl actually the Communist Party knows that good working 
conditions throughout the country and a good economic condition 
would not contribute substantially to the overthrow of the capitalist 
system, but by putting forth Utopian demands for the unemployed 
and increased Avages and shorter hours for the worker, they realized 
that they can put capitalism through a certain preparation. In other 
words, they can exact during this period of struggle a great many 
demands from the capitalist system and thus weaken them and pre- 
pare them for the tinal conflict and the destruction of this system. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, on page 5 there appear two references to 
the party's special interests in aircraft, is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. ]Matthews. And again on page 8 there appears referejice to the 
party's need to build a shop unit in aircraft, is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. Aircraft, rubber, oil, steel — such as those things have 
long been conceritration centers in Los Angeles. 

^Ir. Casey. You mentioned the aircraft industry. My under- 
standing is the aircraft industry pays high wages and have decent 
working conditions, is that correct? 

]Mr. Chase. Xo, The aircraft industrj^ does not pay high wages. 

Mr. CxVSEY. I have been misinformed. 

Mv. Chase. The bulk of the emploj^ees in there are in the small- 
wage class and it does present a good opportunity for the Communist 
Party to build an organization. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Now, again on page 12 the party expresses its 
especial interest in aircraft, is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And again on page 12 appears the sentence: 

In the immediate future tlie party must lielp establish Y. C. L. branches in 
aircraft. 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And again on page 16 : 

Building up the party in a number of important factories, rubber, aircraft, 
oil refineries, etc., and make every comrade eligible a member of a miiun. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

]Mr. jNIatthews. And again on page 18 — 

witli emphasis on mass recruitment especially in imp(n-tant factories and 
industries — aircraft, oil, maritime, auto, rubber, railroad, etc. 

Is that correct? 

]Mr. Chase. That is correct. 



8016 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. A^ain aircraft is emphasized? 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And again on page 19 — 

Establishing Y. C. L. units in important iudustrios and factories (aircraft)? 

Mr. Chase. That is riglit. 

Mr. Matthews. Do j^ou riotice, Mr. Chase, that in all of these 
leferences nothing- is said about the industries where the greatest 
need exists for the workers? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

^Ir. jVIatthfavs. But these are described as important for what 
purpose? Why are these factories important? 

Mr. Chase. Because those are the basic — they are th.e basic in- 
dustries. 

Mr. ^Matthews. That is. they are important politically? 

Mr. ^Matthews. Yes. Politically, yes; and economically. 

Mr. Matthews. And again on page 23 we find the statement : 
'•Red builders should be established."' What are ''red builders"? 

Mr. Chase. Red builders are those workers that are active cir- 
culating literature, propaganda, and visiting and calling upon Avork- 
ers whom they intend to recruit. 

Mr. Matthews. And it is stated here that "red" builders should be 
establislied at the Douglas plant. What is that? An aircraft plant? 

Mr. Chase. That is an aircraft ])lant ; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. At Lockheed. Is that an aircraft plant? 

Mr. Chase. That is another aircraft plant. 

Mr. Matthews. And again on page 24 : 

Aircraft — To pay careful attention to the newly organized shop unit in air- 
craft, establishing a functioning leadership, giving assistance to the issuance of 
a shop paper. All other comrades in the industry shall be combined in one unit 
to concentrate the building of a shop unit in the N. Plant. 

What was the "N. Plant"? 

Mr, Chase. North American. 

Mr. Matthews. That is also an aircraft plant? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Now, I show you another document entitled : 

Proceedings of the California Convention. May 14-15, 11)38, Communist Party. 

Have you seen this report [handing exhibit to the witness] ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. This covers the period tliat I was in the party. I 
left the ])arty in December of 1937 and this would cover the activities 
of the year 1937. I v.m familiar with that. 

Mr. Matthews. Are j^ou familiar with this report ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Have you ever seen it ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes ; I have seen this report. 

Mr. Matthews. On page 43 of this report tliere appears a summary 
of U)38 registration and there is a break-down, Mr. Chairman, of the 
Communist Party membersliip into the various unions and industries 
in Los Angeles County, or the State of California, this is. 

The Chairman. Will you read that for the benefit of the record? 

Mr. Matthews. The number registci-ed is 4,7r)L Seamen and agri- 
cultural workers. 300; number of counties, 22; mmiber of shop units, 
22; number of industrial units, 86; number of neighborhood and pro- 
fessional units, 146. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8017 

There is a break-down under the head of ''Union affiliation,'' in 
American Federation of Labor unions, 698; in C. I. O. unions, 1,457; 
in indej)endent unions. 166; and in company unions, 15. A total union 
affiliation of Communist Party members of 2,336. 

Tlie Chairman. Out of a membership of approximately 4.000? 

Mr. Maithews. Four thousand seven hundred and fifty-one. 

Tlie Chaiioiax. Is that for the entire State of California? 

Mr. ^Iatthews. That is for the entire State of California, is it not, 
Mr. Chase? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. That would be the entire State. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the approximate membershi]) of the Com- 
nuinist Party in California when you were last in the party? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

jNfr. Matthews. Then there is a break-down of membership into 
iniions and occupatioiis of major importance, and under that heading 
we have ''aircraft, 42."' 

Did you know of your ov.n knowledge, Mr. Chase, that the Com- 
numist Party had members in the aircraft plants in- Calif ornia ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; I knew about it. 

Mr. Casey. "What Avere the 42 i 

]Mr. Matthews. Forty-two Communist Party members in the air- 
craft plants. 

The Chatkman. In California. 

Mr. Matthews. Under the same schedule there appears "Electrical. 
29." Would that be approximately correct, according to your infor- 
mation of the Connnunist Party members in the electrical industry? 

Mr. Chase. I wasn't too well acquainted in that part — distinctly in 
the electric part. 

Mr. Matthews. Marine, 388. Was the Communist Party numer- 
ically strongest in the maritime industry in the State of California? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. The Maritime Federation is their strongest 
hold. 

Mr. Matthew's. Does the Communist Party in California control 
the Maritime Federation ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. they do. 

Mr. Matthews. Completely? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Canning, 35; longshoremen, 74; metal, 30; oil, 19; 
office. 297. That seems to have been the second strongest section, of 
the Communist Party membership in the occupations in California, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. There was no organization of office workers 
tliere until the Comnumists took that over. 

The Chairman. What woidd that include — office workers? 

Mr, Chase. Tliat includes stenographers, office clerks, and white- 
collared woi-kers, working in various offices, such as insurance offices 
and bank offices and offices of various industries. 

The purpose is not only to organize the worker on the bench or on 
the asseniblv line but to organize the clerical statf as well. 

The CHAiR^fAN. All office woi-kei- would in many instances be in a 
position to get more information than a worker on an assembly line 
in a plant, wouldn't he? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; they would, and they are under the same obliga- 
tion that a worker on the line would be. 



8018 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mv. IMatthews. Is a Communist Party member avIio works in an 
office under discipline to obey what instructions the party mi<xht give 
witli reference to getting information from the office ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, they would be. 

Mr. Matthews. Including correspondence? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Confidential material of any kind? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, they would. 

Mr. Matthews. There is also a schedule of the party members^hip 
here, according to countries of birth. Out of a total of 4,751 mem- 
bers in California, 2,801 are indicated as having been born in the 
United States, something slightly less than 2,000 being indicated as 
born abroad. Russia. 440. One-tenth of the membership of the 
State of California having been Russian born. Poland, 93. Mexico, 
174, and Spain, 64. Canada. 61; the Philippines. 61. and England, 
46. Germany, 45; Japan, 38; Slavonian, 42; Italy, 28; China. 20; 
and Ireland, 15. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Matthews, w^ould the witness have any infor- 
mation as to the foreign-born, as to whether they were citizens or 
aliens? 

]Mr. Matthews. Do you liave any information on that, Mr. Chase? 

Mr. Chase. Well, I would question the accuracy of that report. 
There are many of the foreign born inside of the California party — 
inside of the Communist Party in California who will claim their 
birth here in the United States and there can be no doubt that a 
great many of them get away with it. We liad an earthquake in 
San Francisco in 1936 and many records were destroyed. The Com- 
munists have, in many instances, used that for stating that they were 
born in this count ly and when asked, stated they were born in San 
Francisco. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you have any knowledge as to whetlier those 
foreign-born are aliens or American citizens? 

Mr. Chase. Many of them are aliens; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. They have not yet been naturalized? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. I know personally a number of them 
that have not been naturalized or are only in the process of boing so. 

Mr. Matthews. There is also a schedule here which indicates the 
length of time in the party. Less than 1 year, 2,230. A little less 
than half of the entire membership has been in th<^ party 1 year, 
according to this schedule. 

Mr. Chase, do you know of your own experience whether the Com- 
munist Party has had a pretty high turn-over in membership? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. The Communist Partv has had an exceedingl}^ 
high turn-over. That is a problem that they have devoted a groat 
deal of thought and energy of trying to correct — the enormous turn- 
over in the membership. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you state briefiy the reason for this tremen- 
dous turn-over in the Communist Party? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. The manner in which workers are recruited — 
thousands upon thousands of workers are recruited from out of the 
trade-union field, in their feeling that they can better serve the Amer- 
ican workingman's interest in it; with the feeling they can improve 
the economic conditions of the peo])le thi'oughout the country as a 
whole. They are not approached and haven't been since about 1934 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8019 

or 1935 on* a revolutionary basis, but strictly upon a basis of local 
issues, of correct in<^- disorders of a local nature. But upon entering 
into the party they sooner or later find out that they are a part of 
a revolutionary group. In manj' instances, they object to the fact 
that everything is under the leadershi]), in most instances, of people 
Avl'.oni we don't readily consider as Americans — people of foreign 
birth — some of them known to be aliens, and such as that. That 
furnishes a great deal of objection on the part of American workers 
and it accounts, no doubt, for a great deal of the turn-over. 

Mr. ]\lATTiiEWS. Now, JNlr. Chase, according to this schedule, out 
of 4.751 members in the party only 91 had been in the party 7 years. 
"Would that be in accordance with your own understanding of the 
tremendous turn-over in the Communist Party or do you think that 
is a mistake in the report^ Yon see the gradual decrease there. 

]SIr. Chase. I would say there are far more than 91, in my opinion, 
yes. that have been in more than 7 years. 

Mr. Casey. You are talking about California, now. 

Mr. Chase. Out in California alone, yes, there is more than 91 
that have been in more than 7 years. 

]Mr. Casey. Where did you get the figures? 

;Mr. ^Matthews. This is the Connnunist Party's owai report. 

Mr. Casey. Do you doubt the accuracy of the report ? 
,. . Ml*. Chase. In that instance I would. Their object in there is to 
"show a rapid growth of the party. 

Mr. MA'tTHEws. But on the contrary this would show a pretty rapid 
turn-over, wouldn't it? 
,. Mr. Chase. Yes, sir, it would. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Two thousand, two himdred and thirty in the party 
less than 1 year; 558 in the party less than 2 years; and 281 less than 
^ years; 25-3- less than -1 years, and so on. 

Tlie Chairman. But. as a matter of fact, it is true, is it not, that 
during along abotit that period the Communist Party enjoyed its 
gi-eatest growth ? 

Mr. Chase. The growth of the Communist Party really started 
"to take hold in a big way in 1934 and 1935. 

Mr. Casey. Was that due then to their increased activity or to the 
economic conditions, or both? 

]Mr. Chase. Well, that can be due to a number of things — the 
C. I. O.. tlie launching of the C. I. O. program and the new trade- 
union policies started skyrocketing the Comnnniists on to a very 
rapid growth. That gave them their entrance then into the place 
that they had been striving for a number of years. Tliey were 
striving to gain a foothold in the basic industries. The C. I. O. gave 
them that. 

Mr. Casey. They attached themselves to the increased unioniza- 
tion of new plants? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Chase, it is ti-ue, is it not, that these 
reports, both of them, were not intended for the public? 

Mv. Chase. Those were intended for the State committee and for 
the national committee. 

Ml". Matihews. In other words, would you assume, in view of the 
fact that these reports were not intended for public release, that the 



8020 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

statements generally would be more accurate tlian reports "that might 
be intended for public release? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. It is a serious breach of discipline in the Com- 
munist Party for any functionary to make an exaggerated or untruth- 
ful report to a higher committee. They would make them accurate to 
the best of their ability. 

Mr. Casey. In the face of that, what have you to say r.ow as to your 
skepticism regarding the figure 91 ? 

Mr. Chase. JSIy general impression is that there are more than that. 
Tl'O-e ma,y not be, but it seems to me that I could almost name that 
many. 

Mr. Matthews. You j(^ined the party 9 years ago; is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. It would be about 9 3-ears ago. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, on page 2 of the proceedings of the California 
convention there appears the results of the elections to the offices of 
the convention on the honorary' presidium. It appears that Joseph 
Stalin was elected to the honorary presidiun:i of the California State 
Convention of the Comnnmist Party. Is that in line with the Com- 
munist Party's attitude toward Stalin? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. It is a common procedure for them to pay homage 
to some outstandinji' Communist somewliere in the world, someone 
who has devoted a great deal of time to their cause, to give them that 
honor of making them an honorary member of some organization or 
group that they have organized. 

Mr, Casey, Is Stalin the most frequently honored person? 

Mr, Chase, Well, Stalin — he is their god, you might say. 

Mr, Matthews, Georgi Dimiti-ov was also a member of the honorary 
presidium of tlie California State CouA-ention of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr, Chase, Yes, Dimitrov — yes; that is correct. He is held in 
very high esteem. 

Mr, Matthews, And Otto Kuusinen ? 

Mr, Chase, Yes. He is the Finnish leader. 

Mr, Matthews, And various other persons from other countries — 
Spain, Germany, Brazil, and Mexico. 

Mr. Chase. Yes. There are other names. 

Mr. Matthews, China. 

Mr. Chase. These names, tlie greater part of them — it happens very 
frecjuently — it is almost a matter of form to elect them as honorary 
members. 

Mr. Casey, Are they ever notified of the distinction? 

Mr. (^hase. Well, they receive these rei)orts. There can be no doubt 
about that. 

The Chairman, You say this Kuusinen Avas the Finnish leader? 

Mr, Chase. Kuusinen? 

The Chairman. Yes, 

Mr, (^HASE. Yes, He has been for some years the outstanding leader 
of the Communists active in Finland, He was named the head 

The Chairman, Did he have any place in the provisional govern- 
ment that tlie Communists set up in Finland? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. He was appointed to head their provisional gov- 
ej-nment when the Communists in.vaded Fiiiland. 

The Chairman. He was a citizen of Finland? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 



LN-AMKUirAN I'KOl'AGAX] ►A ACTIVITIES 3()21 

Mr. Mattiifavs. You don't mean tliat ho lias lived in Finland for 
the past 20 years, do you ? 

Mr. Chase. I don't now that definitely. 

Mr. Matthews. As a matter of faet, hasn't he been a secretary of 
the Connnunist International in Moscow? 

Mr. Chase. He has been a part oi' the Connnunist International; 

Mr. Matthews. Now. on i)a<2;e 5 of the resolutions and proposals 
there appeai-s the stalement tliat the pai'ty is to enaaoe in its cami)ai<r;i 
for buildin<2: the part}' l>y colonizin<i- i)arty and nonparty forces from 
mass oroanizations. such as the Workers' Alliance, International 
Workers' Order, and so forth, into tlie strategic shops in Los Angeles 
in order to guarantee a successful organization drive by the C. I. O.. 
'"This nnist be the task of the faction in these organizations." 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

^Ir. Matthews. Now, will you please describe briefly what is meant 
by "colonizing- ])arty forces from mass organizations into the strategic 
shops"' ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. I believe I could give you this illustration that 
would possibly make that quite clear. You know if a person had a 
systemic disorder — in other words, a disease that takes place in the 
human body — it seems to be Nature's habit of flooding that disease 
with, a bacteria to sort of carry it away. Well, the Communists, in 
building a colony, would set about it in the same way, in effect. That 
would amount to substantially the same thing. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, do you know any medical phraseology? As 
a matter of fact, those bacteria are called "colonies" in medicine, are 
they not ? 

^Ir. Chase. I believe they are. I have never studied medicine. 

The Chaikman. The Conmuniist Party calls members sent into these 
factories "colonists'': is that correct? 

Mr. Chase. It is; yes, sir; distinctly a colony. It couldn't be any- 
thing else. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, how would you distinguish between the 
party's effort to recruit in a shop and to colonize in a shop? What 
would be the difference? 

Mr. Chase. Well, there would be this distinction: We take, for 
instance, a large grouj) of the unemployed 

Mr. Maithews. I am talking about a shop now. Please distinguish 
between the party's effort to recruit in a shop and to colonize in a 
shop. 

Mr. Chase. To colonize in a sho]^ would be to make that sliop a 
concentration center where various members of the party who are 
unemi)loyed are able to make a change in em])lovment — would seek 
employment in a factory or in an industry for tlie purpose of building 
a colony in there. The recruiting would follow. 

Mr. Matthews. AVell, I wonder if I may suggest and ask you to 
contradict it. if you please, that the difference is simply this:'When 
the party colonizes in a shop it takes a person who is already a memljer 
of the i)arty and instructs him to seek employment in that shop. Is 
that correct ? 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

M)-. Mattheavs. And when the ]iarty recruits in the shoj) it goes 
to a person who is already working there and attempts to win him 
for membership in the Communist Party? 



8022 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of many actual instances where the 
Communist Party has colonized in shops ? 

Mr. Chase. The Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. has long been a con- 
centration center. It took some years befoi'e penetration could be 
made. Dougias Aircraft is a shop that could be pointed to as an 
excellent example of colonizing by Communists. They seized upon 
the recent strike at the Douglas Aircraft and came out of that with 
something over 40 members from a very small colony in the beginning. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the party colonize in other organizations than 
trade unions or in other places than shops? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; extensively so in churches, student groups, and 
political organizations. 

jMr. Matthews. Were you a member of the Connnunist Partv in 
1935? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That was the time when the Seventh World Con- 
gress met in Moscow, was it ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In August? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall a resolution adopted at the Seventh 
World Congress instructing members of the Young Communist 
League to colonize themselves in religious organizations? 

The Chairman. Just one second. You say that that is a definite 
part of their policy, to colonize in these industries. What would b© 
the purpose of colonizing in the Douglas Aircraft industry? For 
instance, assuming you get a membership in there of 40 members, 
in the aircraft factory, would it be the duty of those members to 
supply any information required by the party leadership with refer- 
ence to that factory and with reference to airplanes, new methods, 
and so on and so forth? 

Mr. Chase. Wherever a Comnnmist is working in any factory, 
aircraft or any other factory, it is the duty and obligation of a 
Communist to report any information that he is able to obtain back 
to the party. 

The Chairman. The reason I asked that is because we had the 
secretary, James Dolson, here, and I asked him specifically the ques- 
tion : If it was the duty of a Communist to give information, any 
information required by his leader to the leader, and he said it was. 
So that is in line with your statement to the effect that it wonld be 
the positive obligation of a Communist working in a basic industry, 
including airplane factories, naval yards, or wherever they are, to 
give any information that the party leadership might require. 

Mr. Chase. Yes. x\nd any party member will give that without 
hesitanc3^ 

The Chairman. With reference to the aircraft factories. You say 
there are 40 men working in them. Suppose that the Soviet Union 
wants certain information with reference to American manufacture 
or improvement of airplanes, and instructions came from JNIoscow to 
the Connnunist Party of the United States tliat all such information 
should be obtained. Then the party leadership in turn would contact 
the 40 members who are employed in the airplane factories and 
instruct them to submit certain information. Then would it be the 



UX-AMKRICAX PRorAGANDA ACTIVITIKS 8023 

duty and obliiiation of those 40 ntenibers to oet that information, if 
they can. and submit it to the party leadership^ 

^Ir. Chase, That is absohitely correct. 

The CiiAiKM.VN. And isn't it a fact that one of the chief purposes 
of maintaining- tlie Communists or. the inunediate purpose, not the 
hino-ian»re purpose, but one of the immediate objectives of the Com- 
nninist Party in the United States is to secure vahiable military and 
industrial secrets to transmit to Moscow. 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

The Chaikmax. So that they have a potential espionage system 
maintained in this country that they wouldn't have to pay for; they 
wouldn't have to finance in the usual wav in which governments 
finance espionage systems in foreign hmds, is that true? 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

Mr. Casey. You said it was the duty of a Comnuuiist working in 
any industry to furnish information. Does that duty rest upon a 
request by Communist leaders, or is this a general duty ? If they 
happen to notice anything that they deem particularly important, is 
ic their general duty to report that voluntarily? 

Mr. Chase. A Communist would not have to be urged. You must 
remember that Communist members are in there with the definite pur- 
pose of promoting revolution ; that they have become enemies of the 
system that prevails in this country. They are ambitious to replace 
this sj'stem with the workers and farmers or a proletariat dictatorship, 
as it is more generally known, and they will readily, without any urge, 
look for anything that they can use to their — what they consider their 
own advantage. That information would readily be furnished upon 
their part even without a request. 

Mr. Casey. Then the information. I suppose, is sifted by the leaders 
to determine what is important and what is relatively unimportant? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. Casey. The workers themselves furnish everything which they 
tliink is relevant or important? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. Things of a local nature that were not of any 
great importance would probably rest riglit with the committee in the 
territory, but things of such importance would be forwarded to the 
central committee in Xew York and in turn, if they considered it of 
sufficient importance, it would be forwarded on to Moscow. 

Mr. Casey. Let me see if I folloAv the channel of progress that this 
information takes. The worker forAvards information to whom in 
California '. A man works in a factory in California, to whom does 
he give his information ? 

Mr. Chase. He is attached to a unit of the Conununist Party, and 
he is responsible to his organizer. The organizer of that particular 
unit will carry forth the program of the organizing connnittee, which 
is the program of the controlling body in that particular locality. 

Mr. Casey. The organizer gets the worker's re|:)ort? 

Mr. Chase. That is riglit. Right in the meeting, and he carries 
force — he brings to that meeting the decisions of the higher bodies, 
and the members are assigned the jiarticular tasks which they are 
expected to perform, and the results of these things are reiiorted. The 
usual procedure would be to the unit oi-ganizer, but in many instances 
the most capable worker in the unit will not be the organizer. He will 
oftentimes hold no particular office in that unit. He may be working 

f>4931— 40 — vol. 13 23 



8024 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

in confidence directly ^Yith a State committee or witli a county com- 
mittee, and in that eVent liis reports would not be passed through the 
unit but would go beyond that. He would make his report in confi- 
dence and direct to a higher body. 

Mr. Casey. Before the report is sent to the central body in New 
York, who passes upon it to cletermine whether it should be forwarded 
to New York ? 

Mr. Chase. The county secretary or the State secretary. 

Mr. Casey. That is not done by\i vote, or by debating, or anything 
of that sort '. There is a person delegated to that job? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. There would be no debate or no discus- 
sion around it. If they had anything of importance tliey would take 
it to the county organizer and he in turn would submit it either to the 
State secretary or forward it on to the central committee. 

Mr. Casey. If he thinks it is merely local? 

Mr. Chase. He Avould take action, whatever action he decided upon 
himself there, and it would rest there. 

Mr. Casey. Now, if it is of a national characteristic or international 
characteristic, he would forward it to New York, is that right? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

Mr. Casey. And over in New York who determines whether it 
should be forwarded? Is it forwarded to the Comintern, did you 
say ? 

Mr. Chase. To the Comintern ; yes. 

Mr. Casey. Who determines that in New York? 

Mr. Chase. That would be the central committee or some member 
of it. 

Mr. Casey. That is all. 

The Chairman. Now, following that line of inquiry, Earl Browder 
testified before this committee that the Communist Party of the 
United States has 100,000 members. Since then the committee has 
secured a Comnumist Party membersliip book numbered one-hundred- 
eighteen-thousand-seven -hundred-and-something. Assuming that 
there are 118,000 members in the Communist Party in the United 
States. Browder said that more than 50 percent of them were work- 
ing in industries — in unions. Assuming that you had 60,000 Com- 
munists scattered tliroughout the industries in America, from your 
knowledge and expeiience in the work you did as a Communist, would 
you say that out of this 60,000 and through the 60,000 members, that 
Moscow woidcl have practically complete sources of information with 
reference to everything that takes place industrially in the United 
States? ^ 

Mr. Chase. Yes: the support would go much farther than the 
60,000 or the 100,000 members that they acknowledge, because the 
actual membership in the Communist Party is only a small portion 
of their influence. 

We must remember this, that the International Workers or the 
C. I. O. could be mentioned, and Friends of the Soviet Union, Friends 
of the Chinese people. Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Battalion, 
and organizations too numerous to mention, which are not made up 
of i:)eople that are entirely communistic; who either wholly or in part 
do believe in the Communist program. Many of them are considered 
faithful, reliable, and loyal to the cause of the Communist Party, so 
the influence from that 100,000 members would extend much farther. 



I N-AMEUICAX riiOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8025' 

It -woiikl he more reasonable to say possibly a couple of inillioii: 
people. 

The Chaikman. In other words, if there are 40 Communists in an 
airplane factory they have contact amono- non-Communists who are 
sympathetic Avith them in that factory, is that true^ 
' Mr. Chase. It is the belief of the Communist Party that every 
Comnuniist should have around him not less than 10 persons who will 
follow his leadership in any period of crisis or difficulty. 

The Chairman. AVell, of course, the whole theory of the party is- 
that the Connnunist Party proper is the vanguard — the general staff? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

The Chairman. Of the others ? So that each Communist is looked: 
upon as an officer and he is supposed to surround himself with fol- 
lowers, is that true ? 

Mr. Chase. That is right, followers who are not themselves a mem- 
ber of the Connnunist Party. 

The Chairman. So if Moscow Avanted infonnation in a given 
country then they have not only the members of the party in those 
countries, but also sympathizei's through whom they can work to- 
secure that information i 

Mr. Chase. That is accurate and correct. 

The Chairman, And where Russia is in alliance with another 
country the information would not be only for Russia, but would be- 
transmitted or made available to that other country? 

Mr. Chase. That is right : yes. 

The Chairiman. You know, for instance, in the Los Angeles area 
the number of men who belong to the German- American Bund, for 
instance ? 

Mr. Chase. No, I don't know their membership there, I am not 
A^ery familiar w^ith that. 

The Chairman, Isn't it a fact that in Los Angeles there was at one 
time around 1.500 members — the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Chase. I do know that their mass meetings are well attended. 

The Chairman. Well, do you know that most of them work as- 
skilled workers, and that a number of them are in the basic indus- 
tries — as a matter of fact, most of them are in basic industries, 

Mr. Chase. Yes ; I do know that. 

The Chairman. So that two governments working together, like 
Germany and Russia, have facilities for obtaining military and 
industrial secrets in the United States for any purpose they see fit. 
As I say. they have today the greatest facilities for that purpose. 
They have the greatest idealogical set-up that has ever been known 
in the history of the world. I mean they have a spy system that 
masquerades as a political i)arty that is unrivaled anywhere else in 
the world right here in the United States. 

Mr. Chase. Tliere is no doubt about that, not only the United 
States, but in many countries throughout the Avorld there exists the 
greatest ])olitical and economic cons])iracy. I belieA'e, within the 
history of all times. It lias long been the declared purpose of the 
Communist Party — they have not mentioned a word about it; they 
haA'e made this A-ery clear on numerous occasions. oA'er a period of 
years, that in the eA-ent that the United States or any other capi- 
talistic country should be bold as to declare Avar upon the Soviet 



8026 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Union it is their purpose not only to paralyze the industry of this 
Nation but to sabotage it in every way that it is possible, and to 
preserve the fatherland. Time and again they have raised that 
slogan : "Hands off the Soviet Union, the Workers' Fatherland."' 

The Chairman. Now, what percentage of the Communists are 
known among the workers as Communists? Take, for instance, in 
the average industry, would you say that the majority of the Com- 
munists conceal their identity and are unknown as members of 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Chase. Oh, those that would be known as Communists would 
be a very small j^ercentage. I could only speculate on that, but it 
would be very small. 

The Chairman. But the majority of them are kept absolutely in 
the background so far as theii" identity in the party is concerned, so 
that they can work more effecTtively; is that true? 

Mr. Chase. That is true. 

The Chairman. The oues wdio are designated to come out in the 
front are the few that are necessary to provide both a legal organiza- 
tion and an illegal organization, isn't that right ? 

Mr. Chase. The Communists maintain two distinct organizations. 
They maintain an underground movement at all times, because they 
are constantly aware that some change in a political administration 
in a country may necessitate them going immediately luiderground. 

The Chairman. Well, isn't it a fact that the constitution of the 
Communist International requires every unit of the Connnunist 
Party to have both a legal and an illegal organization? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. 

The Chairman. And they maintain the legal organizations in 
'Countries where they are authorizetl to do so and where they are 
not outlawed ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

The Chairman. And then, of course, if they are outlawed, they 
set up their illegal organization? 

Mr. Chase. That is right. And we must realize that those who 
are active in the illegal work in the underground movemeut of the 
Commuuist Party are certainly not going to be silly enough to stand 
up and say that they are members of the Commuiiist Party. 

The Chairman. Well, what is the teaching with respect to a 
meml)er of the Communist Party who is not o])enly known ? Take 
the case of a Connnunist who is not known, who hasn't been desig- 
nated to go into the open and make known the fact that he is a 
Connnunist, and he is brought before a committee or the court and 
is asked the question: "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" 
"Wliat will be his answer under the party's rules? 

Mr. Chase. His answer would be "No." 

The Chairman. Would he hesitate to perjure himself to conceal 
his identity? 

Mr. Chase. The Communist doesn't regard that as perjury. They 
regard tliese laws as laws that have been made by capitalists for 
the preservation of the capitalist system, and where the rights or 
tlie intent of the worker is involved those laws should be totallv 
disregarded. 

The Chairman. And they get that directly from the teachings of 
L/enin with respect to religion? 



un-a:merican propaganda activities 8027 

Ml-. Chase. Yes. 

Tlx' CiiAiRM.vx. xViul his ethics ami morals in whieli lie denies 
that (\)numinists have any morals, insofar as morals are understood 
throughout tlie world. I'mean by that, isn't that pai't of the whol© 
conunuuistio doctrine? 

Mr. Chase. Lenin states that substantially in these terms: That 
the Connnunist program nnist be an elastic program- it may be this 
way today and it may be another way tomorroAV. He states very 
plainly that they must resort to chicanery and trickery in order to> 
outAvit and to fool the bourgeois. 

The Chairman. All right. Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Casey. Just one question. Have you any evidence of any 
coo])cration between the Counnunist Party and the German-Ameri- 
can Buud in California? 

]Mr. Chase. I have seen no evidence of them cooperating there 
locally. 

Mr! Casey. "Well, do you keep up wath their publications? Have 
you read since the Soviet pact or have you had occasion to read 
the Comnuniist publications and the publication of the German- 
Amei-ican Bund and the publications of certain other groups that 
work with thm? 

Mr. Chase. I have read some of those things; yes. 

Mr. Casey. Have you noticed any similarity in the phraseology 
since that pact and the arguments that they have advanced in sup- 
port of the fact and in support of the alliance between Kussia and 
Germany ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes; I have heard some of the arguments. I have 
discussed it with some of them. 

Mr. Casey. Have you noticed in the bund publications that they no 
longer attack the Con:imunists ; that they no longer use the words 
"plutocratic" and "gangster,"' and that there is no longer hi tlie pub- 
lications of the respective organizations that constant bombardment ? 

Mr. Chase. I am perfectly aware that because of this alliance be- 
tween Russia and Germany that the Communist Party is to cease 
attacking the Nazis ar.d the Nazis are to cease attacking the Com- 
inuuists. 

Mr. Casey. Are you aware of the fact that since the invasion of 
Norway tlie Communist publications lay the blame on England and 
luacticallv defended the Nazi seizta-e and control of Norwav? 

Mr. Chase. Yes: I am familiar with that. 

Mr. Casey. So that when an alliance takes place across the waters- 
the new situation is immediately reflected in the attitude not only 
of Communist groups but of Nazi grou])s in the United States? 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

Mr. Casey. While there wouldn't be any evidence of any outward 
cooperation, since they would be too smart for that, the very fact that 
the whole party line, if both of them change and they cease to be 
antagonistic, Avould take u]) other issues. 

]\Ir. Chase. The struggle of both of them at this time witliout a 
doubt is to attack Great Britain and France. 

Mr. Casey. And in the publications of both of them when you read 
them now. instead of the Connnunists talking about Nazi aggression 
and Nazi imperialism, and so on and so forth, the}- are talking now 
about the British imjoerialism. 



8028 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Chase. Yes. They have made a complete about face on tl^at 
issue. 

'Mr. Casey. Is that in accordance with Stalin's so-called elastic 
profjram ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. And the Communists defend that because they 
revert back to the bible, M'hich is the teaching of Lenin, and Lenin 
made that issue very clear years ago. 

Mr. Casey. So it would be an elastic program, which means subject 
to change without notice. 

Mr. Chase. They have no scruples against forming an alliance with 
the bourgeois wherever they can do that to advantage. 

Mr. Casey. Then the Communists in America have no discretion. 
They must follow blindly whatever comes out of Russia ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes: the policy is laid down in Russia. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chase, with reference to the alien members of 
the Communist Party in the State of California you said you did not 
know exactly what proportion of the membership there has failed to 
take out citizenship. Is it true that the Communist Party has no hesi- 
tation to take into membership persons who are ineligible for citizen- 
ship in the United States? 

Mr. Chase. They have always held as ])art of their ]n-ogram the 
defense of the aliens, and that has been their program right along. 

Mr. Matthews. I am referring to such individuals who would be 
ineligible for citizenship — Japanese and Chinese, iov example? 

Mr. Chase. Oh, yes ; they take them as members. 

Mr. Matthews. Does that indicate to some extent that the Com- 
munist Party is not a ]3olitical pai'ty in the ordinarv sense of the word ^ 

Mr. Chase. That certainly indicates that. ^Fav I elaborate on 
that? 

Mr. Casey. Sure. 

Mr. Chase. The Communist Party should not be considered a 
political party in the sense that other parties are considered political. 
Now. the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, or their equivalent 
in other countries would be limited to the affairs and the activities of 
that nation and its members would pledge loyalty to that ]iarticular 
nation. In tlie instance of the Democratic Pnrty or the Re|)ul)lican 
Party their loyalty would be pledged to the LTnited States Govern- 
ment. But the Communist Party differs with them on this point. 
They recognize no boundary lines. In fact. Karl Marx stated "This 
world belongs to the workers. There is no room for a boundary line." 
They were the words that he used. The Communist Party i^ledges 
allegiance to no country other than the Soviet Union and tlie pro- 
gram of the Communist International. 

Mr. Dempsey. But they pledge allegiance to one country. 

Mr. Chase. To the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Matthews. That is because tliey consider that the source of 
the Comintern or the Communist Party? 

Mr. Chase. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And the home, you mi^ht sav. of tlie Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Chase. Their alle<riance wouldn't be pled^-ed to Russia. It 
would be pledged to the Soviet Union. That is the way they would 
phrase that because the Soviet I"^nion is made u]i of a munber of 
countries. 



rX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8029 

The Chairman. Or, isn't the entire structnre of the Conununist 
Party (lesio;iuMl for the purpose of coverino- up one fact, namely, that 
the Conununist Party is an aoency of the Soviet Union? I mean 
Avhen yon <iet clown to th.e proposition while they pretend their officers 
are electecFhr the membershi}) and that it is a clemocratic organiza- 
tion, isn't it 'a fact that the whole structure and the pretense of a 
democratic organization is for the purpose of concealing the fact that 
Russia has in the ITnited States an agency to do its bidding, whatever 
Its bidding nuiy be^ 

Mr. Chase. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And in the case of the Communist International, 
the Conununist Party of tlie United States, and of other countries 
are sections of it t 

Mr. Chase. That is riffht. 

The Chairman. But isn't it a fact that since the Communist Party 
of Russia has 1,800,000 members, as compared with the rest of the 
countries, that gives the Communist Party of Russia a complete 
control of the Communist International? 

Mr. Chase. I want to make this point. The Communist Interna- 
tional — there was a gap of 7 or 8 years that no conventions whatever 
were held. Now. the Communist International is made up of dele- 
gates from the Communist Party in the various countries throughout 
the world. But naturally Russia, having by far the largest member- 
shi]-!. would naturally have the greater number of delegates. Now, 
inside of the Communist International is the presidium. The presi- 
dium acts upon problems between conventions. Now, this presidium 
is practically all made up of Russians and those that are not Russians 
are usually taking care of problems in their own countries. The 
result is that a quorum will act between conventions made up entirely 
of Russians and. therefore, the entire program of the Communist 
International can truthfully be said to be dictated by the Russian 
Conmiunists. 

The Chairman. It is just a clever way for a foreign country to 
build up an espionage system in another country without having to 
pay for it and without any danger of that other foreign country 
treating it as an espionage system ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. It is that in every sense of the word. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Mr. Chase, in the event that a Communist Party 
member is instructed to obtain highly confidential information in a 
plant such as an aircraft plant, isn't it true that that information 
would not be transmitted to his unit organizer or section organizer 
or. as a matter of fact, to anybody else in the Comnuniist Party as 
such, but wouldn't that be transmitted to the other agency of the 
Communist conspiracy, the Soviet military intelligence or the Ogpu? 

Mr. Chase. All Conuuunists belong to the unit, of course, but a 
member that has the ability and is in the position to render some 
particular service would be assigned to some other ])art of the Com- 
munist Party, to some other group, some individual or for some par- 
ticular duty that they have, and he Avould work in confidence and he 
would make his report accordingly. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the existence of the 
secret organization which is connnonly described now as the Ogpu ? 

Mr. Chase. Wherever there is a Communist Party they have it. 

Mr. Matthews. That is under what is now called the Commissariat 
of Internal Affairs of the Soviet Union, is it not ^ 



8030 UX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Chase. Yes. That is the correct name for it now. 

Mr. Matthews. And that is an espionage organization wherever it 
exists, outside of the Soviet Union