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Full text of "Investigation of un-American propaganda activities in the United States. Hearings before a Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-fifth Congress, third session-Seventy-eighth Congress, second session, on H. Res. 282, to investigate (l) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation"

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INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 

HEARINGS 

BEFOEB A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SEVENTH CONGEESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 



H. Res. 282 



"*/ 



TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL 
OTHER QUESTIONS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 

J 



VOLUME 14 

AUGUST 29, OCTOBER 1, 2, 4, 1940 ; MAY 21, 22, 26, 27, 29 
JUNE 10, 12, AUGUST 11, 1941 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Uii-Amorioan Activities 




I 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 

HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SrECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIYES 

SEVENTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
ON 

H. Res. 282 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND OBJECTS 
OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED 
STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION A\"ITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF 
SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA THAT IS INSTI- 
GATED FROIM FOREIGN COUNTRIES OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN 
AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE FORM OF GOVERN- 
MENT AS GUARANTEED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3 1 ALL 
OTHER QLT:STI0NS IN RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID 
CONGRESS IN ANY NECESSARY REMEDIAL 
LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 14 

AUGUST 29, OCTOBER 1, 2, 4, 1940; MAY 21, 22, 26. 27, 29 
JUNE 10, 12, AUGUST 11, 1941 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on LTn-American Activities 






UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
62626 WASHINGTON : 3 941 



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H^'^ o-r- <^ 




MAR 2.7 1944 



U- 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES- 

Washington, D. C. 

MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman 

JOE STARNES, Alabama HARRY P. BEAM, Illinois 

JERRY VOORHIS, California NOAH M. MASON, lllicois 

JOSEPH E. CASEY, Massachusetts J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey 

Robert E. Stripling, Chief Investigator 
J. B. Matthews, Director of Research 
II 



4 * a « 

1 • ••• • 



CONTENTS 



Pas* 

Apergis, Vera 8616 

Api leby. Walter M 8232 

Ba.l y, Fred E 8569 

Balint, Alex 85j7, 8614 

Baluiiek, Ardrew 8619 

Barker, Robert B 8640 

Bell, Artliiir H 8307 

Birmiiighim, Srephen W 8617,8812 

BolUng. Jav Edward 8586 

Bvoir, Lt. Carl 8210 

Cowau, C. B , 8623 

Crczier, Oscar C 8575 

Franklin, Richard K 8558 

Freitag, Elmer 8594 

H ilMier. Otto 8318 

Huff.nan. Hazel 8391, 8417, 8421, 8 57 

Inzer, Hugh B^n 8532 

Klapprott, August 8285 

K.'ebs, Richard 8479, 8509 

Kunze, Gerhard Wilhelm , 8251 

Lamb, Edward 8612 

Michener, Lew 8595 

Mosberger. John M 8639 

Batman, Wright 8164, 8198, 8226 

R^es, Herman A 8323 

Schmidt, Godfrey 8826 

Spargo, Mary 8404, 8436, 8443 

S^ewprt, Joseph W 8251 

S ripling. R-ibert E 8645 

Werner, Richard W 8331 

Young, Rev. A. M S31S 

rn 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, AUGUST 29, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Special Committee to Investigate 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. 0. 

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., the Honorable Martin Dies 
(chairman), presiding. 

Present: Hon. Joseph E. Casey of Massachusetts, Hon. Noah M. 
Mason of Illinois. 

Also present: J. B. Matthews, director of research for the com- 
mittee; Brien McMahon, Esq., counsel representing Lt. Carl Byoir. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order, please. 

Because of the absence of a quorum the Chair will designate him- 
self and the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Casey, and the 
gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Mason, as a subcommittee for the pur- 
pose of hearing Congressman Wright Patman, and also for the purpose 
of hearing Mr. Carl Byoir. 

As is known, several months ago the Chair appointed a subcom- 
mittee, composed of Mr. Dempsey of New Mexico, Mr. Mason of 
Illinois, and Mr. Casey of Massachusetts, to hear and investigate 
certain charges made by Mr. Patman with reference to Mr. Carl 
Byoir. 

The com.m.ittee had one of its investgators go into the matter, and 
a report was filed by this investigator. 

This report, together with a report of the F. B. I., was considered, 
as I understand, by the subcom.mittee. 

Since the Chair was not present, he will call on one of the gentlemen 
here on the subcom.m.ittee to make a more com.plete statement with 
reference to the m.atter 

Mr. Mason, I will call on you. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairm.an, in suro.m.arizing the situation to date 
in this m.atter, I would say that cer*;ain charges were made on the 
floor of the House by Congressm.an Patm.an against Air. Carl Byoir 
that would tend to give the im.pression that Air. Byoir was un-Ameri- 
can and that certain activities in the past, and perhaps the present, 
would indicate so. 

Mr. Byoir first requested of the Dies com.m.ittee that the com.mittee 
go into the m.atter as to charges m.ade against hun, in full, check on liis 
past, go over all of his accounts, and 

The Chairman (interposing). That part is true. But it should be 
stated also that Mr. Patm.an first m.ade the request that the matter 
be investigated. Mr. Byoir made the request also later. 

8163 



8164 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Mason. All right. 

Our investigator, Mr. Stedman, made an investigation, quite an 
elaborate investigation, a thorough one, and brought a report to our 
committee — that is, the full com.m.ittee — and the F. B. I. had also 
made an investigation of Mr. Carl Byoir, and also had in its files a 
report on the matter. 

So that when your subcommittee was appointed, consisting of Mr. 
Dempsey, as chairman, Mr. Casey, and myself, to take this matter 
up we had available the files of our investigator, Mr. Stedman, and 
the files of the F. B. I. Your subcommittee went over the files with 
the investigator quite thoroughly and conscientiously, and also, 
through the Department of Justice, the files of the F. B. I., and as 
a result of that careful investigation your subcommittee made the 
following report in this matter: 

The subcommittee you appointed to investigate the un-American activity 
charges made against Mr. Carl Byoir, after carefully going over the report of our 
special investigator, Mr. Stedman, and also after consulting the files of the 
F. B. I. in the case, find nothing to justify the charges made, nor any evidence that 
could possibly form a basis for such charges. 

We, therefore, find satisfaction in clearing Mr. Carl Byoir of the charges made 
against him, and recommend that a resolution covering a complete exoneration of 
Mr. Byoir be voted by the full committee as soon as possible, such resolution 
to be based upon this subcommittee report. 

We also believe, in fairness to Mr. Bj'oir, immediate publicity should be given 
to the subcomznittee's findings. 

Signed by John C. Dempsey, chairman; Joseph Casey, and N. M» 
Mason . 

The Chairman. The Chair wishes to make the statement that 
Mr. Patman was assured by the Chair that he would have an oppor- 
tunity to be heard, and present any facts or any information which 
he had, and that this was in accordance with the practice that we 
have heretofore engaged in, and that the committee intended to go 
into this matter fully and hear all evidence that we could obtain on 
the subject matter. 

Mr. Casey. I do not think the subcommittee was aware of that 
assurance given by the Chair, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. I do not recall about that fact, 

Mr. Mason. But I think it is perfectly proper that such assurance 
should be given, and that before action of the full com.mittee on this 
report of the subcommittee be taken that should be done. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Casey. Then we can go ahead? 

The Chairman. That is right. Does that clarify the situation for 
the sake of the record? 

(No reponse.) 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Patman, will you please come 
around? Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? 

HON. WRIGHT PATMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM 

THE STATE OF TEXAS 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Patman. 

Mr, Patman. Mr. Chairman, knowing the fairness of the Members 
of the House, and the reputation for fairness of Mr. Mason and Mr. 
Casey in particular, I feel like that they will lay aside any convictions 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8165 

thoy have had in this matter in the past, and start anew m its considera- 
tion. I presume that is true. If it is not true I do not feel hke going 
ahead. 

On a committee of three, two of them, Mr. Mason and Mr. Casey, 
have gone on record as being opposed to what I am going to say, and 
exonerated this man. 

The Chairman. Mr. Patman, the answer can be made to that by 
these gentlemen by saying that they were basing their decision on the 
evidence that tliej' had before them at the time. 

Mr. Patman. At that time? 

The Chairman. They had the report of the investigator, Mr. 
Stedman, and the report of the F. B. I. 

Mr. Patman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, if there is evidence in addition to that of 
course these gentlemen will be governed by the new evidence. I do 
not have any authority to speak for them. 

Mr. Casey. Tiiere is no question about that in my mind. 

Mr. Mason. However, Mr. Chairman, having gone over all the 
evidence available, and having found on that evidence a judgment 
conclusion, it will be necessary before I change my mind that additional 
evidence shall be adduced which would at least change the situation 
insofar as the evidence that we have gone over is concerned. 

The Chairman. That is what Mr. Patman proposes to do. 

Mr. Patman. Yes. Of course, that places quite a burden on me, 
and ordinarily one occupying Mr. Mason's position would not be 
qualified for jury service, but I am perfectly willing to trust the 
gentleman. 

The Chairman. I think Mr. Patman should have the opportunity, 
first as a Member of the House of Representatives, and then his 
responsibility as a citizen, as well as a Member of the House of Repre- 
sentatives, to be heard, as he is making certain statements and charges 
here, and I am sure the committee has every disposition and desire to 
hear what you have to say, because it is our duty to receive informa- 
tion, and we are glad to give you the opportunity to proceed. 

Mr. Patman. All right, Mr. Chairman; I appreciate the opportunity 
you have given me for a hearing. 

Regarding Mr. Mason's statement that he was probably influenced 
in some way by the F. B. I. report, the F. B. I. could only investigate 
one thing, and that was whether or not Lieutenant Colonel Byoir had 
registered according to the law as representing a foreign principal. 
And of course they failed to find that since 1938, when that law was 
passed, that he had violated the law. So any exoneration of the 
F. B. I. is necessarily restricted to that one point only. 

The charges that I made on the floor of the House, and the charges 
which I feel confident that I can sustain before this committee, were 
that Lieutenant Colonel Byoir was guilty of un-American activities. 

I realize, gentlemen, that is quite a serious charge, and I do not 
make charges unless I have what I consider to be adequate and 
sufficient proof to sustain those charges. 

It will be remembered — of coiu-se, gentlemen, I hope you bear with 
me, and are patient with me, and will indulge me for the reason that I 
have a greater burden now than I would ordinarily have by reason of 
the fact that this subcommittee, which I mentioned, passed on it, 
although I was not heard, and so there has been a prejudgment of the 
subcommittee, and that will necessitate my going into the matter lq 



8166 UN-AMERiaysr propaganda activities 

greater detail and possibly at greater length than would ordinarily be 
necessary, and I hope you will be very patient with me regardmg this 
matter. 

I have no feeling in tliis matter. I am an American citizen, a 
Member of Congress, and I have information which comes to me, and 
I feel like it is my duty to present it to the right people if anyone is 
guilty of conduct that an American citizen should not be guilty of and 
he occupies a position in our armed forces that will possibly permit 
him to have a great deal to do with the enforcement of the conscription 
law when it is passed, and if it does pass, or the voluntary system in 
the event the conscription law does not pass, and I think it is a matter 
of serious and great importance. And I suggest to you that if this 
man, Lt. Col. Carl Byoir, had been guilty of the same thing, as I 
believe he was guilty of in time of peace, if he had been guilty of it in 
time of war I believe he would have been guilty of treason. Of 
course, that is a pretty serious charge to make. And I believe before 
I am finished you will see I am 100 percent correct, and there is no 
doubt about it. 

Lieutenant Colonel Byoir was hired to disseminate Nazi propaganda, 
including anti-Semitic and church and State propaganda. 

January 30, 1933, Hitler became Chancellor of Germany. 

Before I go further. Lieutenant Byoir as a lieutenant colonel was 
not promoted from the ranks, but he was just picked out and made a 
lieutenant colonel. 

In 1931 it shows that he went into the specialist reserves, and he is 
carried in the specialist reserves of the United States Army Reserves 
right now. 

In less than 18 months from the time he was appointed lieutenant 
colonel Hitler became Chancellor of Germany on January 30, 1933, 
and very soon thereafter there was an immediate new life taken on by 
German organizations in America to sell new Germany to American 
people and make them crave a dictatorship under Hitler instead of a 
democracy, the kind we had. 

Mr. Byoir was a propagandist, in addition to being a lieutenant 
colonel in the Army Reserves, with offices in New York, and he was 
employed by the German consul, Kiep, in New York at that time, and 
within 60 days after Hitler became chancellor was paid $4,000 in cash, 
in bills to represent the German consul in distributing certain litera- 
ture, which was anti-Semitic literature. 

The Chairman. You say he was paid $4,000 cash, in bills? 

Mr. Patman. In cash, in bills. 

The Chairman. Was any explanation given as to why the payment 
was made in cash? 

Mr. Patman. No; I do not know of any explanation. I know that 
Mr. McCormack, the chairman of a committee, at one time looked 
into this, and partially made some statement about it, and here is 
what he said. Mr. Raymond Moley was on the witness stand, and the 
chairman, Mr. John W. McCormack, asked Mr. Moley this question: 

The Chairman. There was authentic evidence produced at the Washington 
hearings, both testimony and documents, in the case of the former German consul, 
Kiep, paying $4,000 for propaganda directed against people in this country, 
whether citizens or not, because of tlieir race. Have you any opinion that you 
desire to express as to the propriety of such actions? 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8167 

To which Mr. Moley replied: 

Mr. Moley. I think it is thoroughly improper to do any such subsidizing of 
any movement in the United States of that character by anyone who is a German 
citizen, and particularly so when he occupies an official position. 

Now, at that time Mr. McConnack did not know that this man, 
Mr. Carl Byoir, was a lieutenant colonel in the Army, and had he 
known that he would have known there were two people who were 
doing something that the American people would frown on. First, 
one from a foreign country coming in and trying to dictate our affairs, 
and another was to employ one who occupies an important position 
in our armed forces. 

Mr. Casey. Mr. Patman, you said Mr. McCormack did not know 
that Mr. Byoir was a lieutenant colonel? 

Mr. Patman. No; he did not know it. 

Mr. Casey. And he did not say that Mr. Byoir received $4,000, 
did he? 

Mr. Patman. I know; but I now refer to that testimony in Wash- 
ington which shows that Mr. Byoir did get the money. 

Mr. Casey. \Miat testimony is that, Mr. Patman? 

Mr. Patman. The testimony before the committee here in Wash- 
ington. Before I finish, Mr. Casey, I believe you will be thoroughly 
convinced on that point, if that is the only thing that is bothering you. 

Mr. Casey. I wanted that cleared up. 

Mr. Patman. In the spring of 1933 Byoir was employed by the 
German Tourist Information Office, and received $2,000 and $3,000 a 
month for distributing literature, which I consider, and I believe the 
members of the McCormack committee considered, to be prejudicial 
to our form of government. 

George Sylvester Vierick, a noted propagandist for Kaiser Wilhelm 
in the World War, and who said that he was ashamed of America, 
went to German}' in August 1933 to obtain a contract for Carl Byoir 
to represent Hitler in Ainerica. 

Mr. Carl Dickey, one of the two partners of Byoir's, was also in 
Germany at that time. 

Now, while Vierick was there in Germany he discussed the matter 
with Hitler himself, and obtained the promise of a contract for Carl 
Byoir, which was later approved by the German Minister of Propa- 
ganda, for Byoir to receive $6,000 a month for a period of 18 months. 

I am giving you a summary of this, gentlemen, for the purpose of 
backing it up with proof. I thought that you gentlemen would appre- 
ciate summarizing the case in advance, so that you would know what 
to expect, and also to allow me an opportunity to present to you what 
you require me to present. 

The Chairman. May I make a notation at this time that there is 
now a quorum present, and we are sitting as a full committee. There 
are present, Mr. Casey, of Massachusetts; Mr. Mason, of IlHnois; 
and Mr. Voorhis. of California, who has just entered. 

Mr. Mason. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? 

The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Mason. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Patman, all of this summary that you are giving 
is a summary of what the McCormack committee went into and 
found, and upon which the}' made a finding, which we had available 
when we went over this matter. 



8168 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

It adds notliing new. And unless you have got new evidence, 
which was not mchided in the McConnack committee testimony, it 
seems to me this is water over the dam, and is past. 

Mr. Patman. I do not agree with you, Mr. Mason. 

Mr. Mason. The McCormack committee did not find this man 
guilty of un-American activities. 

Mr. Patman. I beg your pardon. The}^ did. And if you will let 
me go ahead I will convince you they did. So there is a difference of 
opinion there. And I do not think you have read the committee 
report very carefully. 

Mr. Mason. That was my impression, and I went over it. 

Mr. Patman. I think I will give you a different impression of it. 

Now, wliile Vierick was in Germany to get this contract for Byoir 
he discussed with Hitler this matter, himself, and later there was a 
contract of 18 months, which was to extend from October 1933 but 
wliich was changed November 23, 1933, providing that Byoir would 
be paid $6,000 a month, or $108,000 in all, and certain expenses, when 
he incurred certain expenses, in connection with tliis work that he was 
engaged to do, and also trips to Germany and back in the event it 
was necessary to send people there. 

Therefore, Lieutenant Colonel Byoir became the highest paid 
German representative of the German Government in America. 

In Hitler's book. My Battle, he said this: That the masses must be 
misled in order to be led. That fits in with his then Minister of 
Propaganda, Goebbels, who said: "Propaganda knows neither right 
nor wrong, neither truth nor falsehood, but only what it wants." 

Col. Edwin Emerson, of New York, was named the Nazi Party's 
representative in America about the same time that Byoir was given 
a contract, both by the German Consul in New York and by the 
German Tourist Information Office, which was nothing more than a 
bund for the purpose of disseminating Nazi propaganda in America. 

The Nazis commenced in dead earnest with such leaders as Lt. Col. 
Carl Byoir, Colonel Emerson, Spanknoble, Schmitz, and others, to 
make the American people like Hitler and dislike their own form of 
Government, the American democracy. 

Many different organizations were formed and old ones taken over. 

This commenced immediately after the employment of Lt. Col. 
Carl Byoir. 

"Teutonia" was organized. The name did not sound so good. 
So they changed it to the "Friends of New Germany." The people of 
German descent did not seem to like that so much, so they changed it 
to the "Friends of Germany." And the purpose of organizing these 
different groups throughout the country was to induce the German 
people to join and thereby assist Hitler in what he was trying to do. 
There was the National Socialistic German Party, the Steel Helmets, 
the Order of '76, Sons of '76, the bunds of the Friends of New Germany 
and they organized all of these and many more different kinds of 
organizations. 

Mr. Casey. I understand that Mr. Patm.an is going to tie Mr. 
Byoir up with these organizations; is that right? 

Mr. Patman. I say this: He was head of publicity of all of this, 
and it was done for the purpose of creating good will for Germany 
under the leadership of Feulii-er Hitler. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8169 

Mr. Casey. I mean you are going to show he has some connection 
with this? 

Mr. Patman. You woukl not expect that. He has that proof. 
You woukl expect this as a part of the general program. In other 
words, if he was a player on Hitler's team he would have to show 
about this. 

Mr. Casey. That follows very well; I mean you can get a great 
(k'al of color with 3'^ou, but I do not see the relevancy if you do not tie 
hini. up with this. 

Mr. Patman. I think I can tie liim up. I think that testimony 
would be good in a court. 

Mr. Casey. I want you to tie it up. 

Mr. Patman. I want to do it in m.y way. 

Mr. ]Mason. Of course, Mr. Chairman, at that particular tim.e in 
our State Dcpartm.cnt the whole set-up was engaged in relations to 
m.ake friendsliip long before this happened, long before Hitler began to 
show himself, and so the State Department and other Departn^ents of 
the Government were cultivating friendship with the new Germany 
at that time. 

Mr. Patman. Do you niean in that anti-Sem.itic drive? 

Mr. !Mason. I am not meaning any anti-Sem.itic drive. I am, m,ean- 
ing that our State Departm.ent was at that particular tim.e cultivating 
econom.ic, friendly relationships with the new Germany. 

Mr. Patman. This was not economic relations entirely, my dear 
sir. 

The Chairman. All right; let us proceed. 

Mr. Patman. Hitler Youths was another organization, and the 
literature distributed to these children included this statement: "If 
the world at large bares its teeth at Germany, we will smash it." 

And it was always carried on a placard. 

Clearl}^ the main objective of this group is to breed soldiers for a 
war in w^hich Nazidom will conquer the world. 

All got literature from Nazi Germany, that is, these different 
organizations, which was distributed. It came over here on the 
steamship lines, represented by the very group which employed 
Lieutenant Colonel B3'oir. They brought in literature at will and 
carried literature back at \vill. 

Party leaders in the United States had to have the approval of party 
leaders in Germany. 

All of the steamsliip employees in America must belong to the 
German union. 

German citizens came in and elected leaders. Some of them had 
uniforms in some organization the same as the storm troop uniforms 
in Germany. 

One of these organizations taught Germans how to fly at an 
aviation field in New York City. 

Mr. Casey. Before you leave Hitler's Youth distribution of 
literature, have you any evidence that Mr. Byoir had any part in 
the distribution of that literature? 

Mr. Patman. I think you will be convinced that he was a part of 
the program, the whole program, and in fact he was the highest paid 
representative of Hitler in America. And how can he avoid respon- 
sibility entirely for what was done by the groups who were working 
in the direction of the same end toward which he was going? 



8170 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Casey. By virtue of that you could tie a man up with any- 
thing. I mean if you are going to make a particular issue about 
Hitler out of this, and just say that Mr. Byoir was in general a part of 
the program, I do not see that is relevant. 

Mr. Patman. I think you gentlemen will be able to cast aside that 
part which you consider material, and that part which you consider 
immaterial. 

Mr. Casey. I think we will be able to do that too, Mr. Patman. 

Mr. Patman. Yes. 

Mr. Casey. I was just wondering if you had anything more specific 
than that to tie up. 

Mr. Patman. That is my belief. 

Mr. Casey. I was just seeking something. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Patman. T think I will be able to prove that Lieutenant 
Colonel Byoir had been guilty of un-American activities. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Patman. In all of these organizations members were taught 
that Hitler was a leader of German people all over the world. Bales 
of propaganda came in on every ship from the German propaganda 
office. 

And, speaking of Hitler, Lieutenant Colonel Byoir prepared a 
booklet, Speaking of Hitler, in his office, and it was distributed over 
the Nation to boost Hitler and the Nazi form of Government, and 
most certainly it was not anything to harm Hitler. It was some- 
thing which Lieutenant Colonel Byoir would not have sent out or 
the Nazis would not have had sent out if that had been the case. 

Mr. Casey. What was that name again? 

Mr. Patman. Speaking of Hitler. 

Mr, Casey. Hnve you a copy of it? 

Mr. Patman. No; I wired for it, and it was not available at any 
place. But I have seen soro.e references to it in the different news- 
papers and ro.agazincs only, which, of course, I am. not using here. 

No propaganda was confiscated before Byoir became the highest 
paid Hitler representative in Am.erica, but im.m.cdiately after his 
employm.ent the am.ount of propaganda becam.e noticeable. 

Germ.an citizens were allowed to go and com.e at will on German 
steam.ship lines represented by Lieutenant Colonel Byoir. 

Germ,an citizens swore that they were Am.crican citizens in order 
to become members of the National Guard in this country. It seems 
they were trying to get them just as high in the Army as they could, 
ancl trying to get some in the ranks, too. The evidence cannot be 
refuted that while Lieutenant Colonel Byoir was representing them 
that they also were trying to influence aliens in order to get them 
to becom.e National Guards in America in a number of cities. 

The Chairman. Mr. Patm.an, your point is that Mr. Byoir was an 
agent of the Gerro.an Government? 

Mr. Patman. Absolutely. And also that the Germ.an Tourist 
Inform.ation Office was nothing more than a front for the German 
Governm.ent. 

The Chairman. What was his agency so that he would have to 
take that responsibility, what other acts for the German Government 
other than what he was? 



UN-AMERTCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8171 

Air. Patman. In the boginniiig: of this campaign- 



The Chairman (iiitreposing). What I am trying to find out is was 
his rcprosentation as a pubhcity man, or propaganda m.an, or what- 
ever you want to call it, such as to imply the whole range of Nazi 
propaganda, which now and then has included a nmnber of different 
subjects, and is there anything to show just what the scope of this 
agency was? 

Mr. Patman. That is they picked out a tourist office because there 
is no linut to what they could do or say. They are doing that in 
South An\erica now. They are doing that in other countries of the 
world. Of course, they do it under the guise of "Build up Hitler," 
and if they build up Hitler 3^011 know what that will mean. They say 
also that "We are trying to build up a good relation," and they have 
selected a subject that covers every water front that permits the dis- 
semination of any kind of propaganda, and their answer is that it is 
to build up trade, and "We want you people to feel kindly to Germany 
so you will go over there and travel." So the tourist office 1 as been 
selected by the officials of the propaganda German office for them to 
go into those fields and whatever they do or say it is to encourage 
trade and travel. 

I shall go into that further, Mr. Chairman, in my testimony. 

The Chairman. The theory is, and seems to be beyond a doubt con- 
clusive, that Mr. Byoir was employed by the German Government, or 
by some official of the German Government, and he was employed for 
certain purposes. It is not clear in the mind of the chairman just how 
those purposes were expressed, whether limited so as to comprise a 
particular field, and whether that field was legitimate, and the reason 
I have inquired into it is that all governments employ government 
agents. And 1 am informed that the two Communists are employed 
by a certain government, and while in the employment of that govern- 
ment at the same time they were writing columns, and I think it is 
material to determine if this contract, general in nature, covered all 
propaganda, or whether Mr. Byoir had a contract wliich was speci- 
fically limited as to the character of publicity that he was to direct. 

Mr. Patman. The chairman has a copy of that contract in his pos- 
session, and I suggest he read paragraph number 2. 

The Chairman. That is what I would like to do. Wliere is that? 
Have you a copy of that? I must confess I have not read it. 

Mr. Patman. Anyway, it says "To build up good will between the 
two countries," which covers anything. Of course, he is not to do 
anything which is of a political nature, or against the American Gov- 
ernment. But 1 do not consider that just because a contract is worded 
a certain way that you are bound by the wording of the contract, and 
oftentimes when people have in mind doing something they put in the 
contract that it will not be done. 

Mr. Mason. I have read the contract very carefully. I found that 
it is le2:itimate in every respect. And at that particular period in our 
histor}^, wliir-h is different than now, anyone would have signed that 
contract and entered into that contractual relation. 

Mr. Patman. The gentleman can examine the lease contracts on 
every house that is conducted for unlawful purposes in Wasliington, 
and the}' will look good, too, because nobody ever leased a house for 
gambling purposes, or at least did not put in that contract that they 
had leased the house for gambling purposes. 



8172 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. The point you raise is the fact that if it did not con- 
tain specific language it would not be conclusive itself, because the 
German Bund and many organizations have had high-sounding titles 
and high-sounding purposes and still not followed them, is that a fact? 

Mr. Patman. That is a fact. 

Mr. Mason. It is being used as a contract. 

Mr. Casey. But, as I understand, this contract sets forth certain 
things, and not such as the witness suggests, and on which I under- 
stand from the witness he has positive evidence in regard to. 

Mr. Patman. No, no; I did not say I had positive evidence as to 
that. Do not put words in my mouth. I did not say I had positive 
evidence as to that. 

Mr. Casey. I did not quite get your position on that. 

Mr. Patman. I said if you were going to lease a house for gambling 
purposes you had never seen one in your life that did not contain a 
prohibition against gambling. I say that not as positive evidence that 
the reverse is true, but as evidence it does not always mean anything. 

The Chairman. All right. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Casey. You say the duration of this contract was for 18 
months? 

Mr. Patman. Yes; but do not overlook the fact that the German 
consul employed Lieutenant Colonel Byoir and paid him quite a lot 
of money when there was no contract there that I know of. We do 
know that he disseminated anti-Semitic literature, evidently under 
that contract, and that alone should be an un-American activity. 

There is propaganda on every ship as to Byoir's employment. 
There were armed Nazis aboard every vesssel after Hitler came in 
and Byoir was employed. 

Uniforms were taken by German citizens from ships and smuggled 
into this country for drilling purposes, tickets, passports, or anything 
else. And we do not know how many of them are left over here in 
our "fifth column" today, because they came over and left at will and 
came over and stayed at will. 

Rifles were used by German organizations to drill a certain time 
each week, and they recognized a duel citizenship because they went 
to the trouble of following up these instructions at a certain time each 
week. 

These German-American organizations were formed to preach racial 
and religious hatred; to oppose preparedness; to oppose all expendi- 
tures to protect our country; and to obtain names and addresses of 
all sympathizers of nazi-ism. 

Since Lt. Col. Carl Byoir accepted employment from the German 
consul in New York, and German interests spread Nazi propaganda 
m this country which was inimical to our form of government, he 
should certainly not be permitted to remain a lieutenant colonel in 
the Army. This is no time to trust aliens in a national defense 
program nor to trust representatives of aliens. 

I hope you gentlemen will notice this, because I am serious about 
it, and because I think it requires an investigation by your committee. 

There is sufficient evidence to warrant an investigation into the 
unholy alliance and close connection between Nazi propaganda in 
this country and big business, or certain parts of big business. 



UN-AJMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8173 

Recently, a representative of the German Government was here to 
cement Nazi propaganda and big business together, and was even 
bold enough to take interest in our internal political affairs. 

In this particular Lt. Col. Carl Byoir said in October 1938, at Rye, 
N. Y., in a booklet that was distributed by one of his organizations, 
and which was evidently approved by him, that he represented 
American industiy in this country, with assets of $14,500,000,000. 
That is a lot of money. If he represents American industry with 
assets of $14,500,000,000, like he said, he represents about 90 per- 
cent of the advertisers in this country, and he has tremendous power 
and influence. And 1 think this committee should call upon him to 
give the names of those concerns, in order that this committee might 
look into til em and see if they have any connection with this unholy 
alliance between Nazi propaganda and this certain part of big 
business. 

Now, I saw the statement which he gave to this committee, about 
the connections he had in 1938 and in 1939, and they only aggregated 
just a very small peT'centage of $14,500,000,000. 

The Chairman. My information is — and I know it is correct, that 
our investigator went to the offices of Air. Byoir. Mr. Byoir gave 
him access to all of his books and records and to his clientele; his 
clientele was in the interview, that his books were produced; and I 
merely make that statement to keep the record straight. 

Do not the investigator's records show that? 

Mr. Mason. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Batman. Yes; after the report had been made. 

Mr. Mason. I saw a record of the hiterviews that had been had by 
these people in that report. 

The Chairman. Let me get the record straight. 

The first thing you did was to mak(^ a request for an investigation. 
Mr. Stedman was placed on it. Mr. Stedman went to New York. 
He saw everybody, followed every lead he could get, and he made a 
report, which was before the subcommittee. 

Mr. Mason. Yes, sir; and he was appointed to do that. 

Mr. Batman. Now, Mr. Chairman, would you mind letting me have 
a copy of that report? 

The Chairman. As I understand it, you came to the office and read 
the report? 

Mr. Batman. Surely. 

The Chairman. Do you want a copy of it? 

Mr. Batman. Yes. 

Mr. Casey. I just want to clear up this point about big business. I 
am somewhat confused about it. As I understand the reasoning of the 
gentleman is that he says there was an unholy alliance between the 
Nazi propaganda and big business. 

Mr. Batman. Certain parts of big business. 

Mr. Casey. And Mr. Byoir represents $14,500,000,000 of big 
business? 

Mr. Batman. Yes. 

Mr. Casey. Therefore, Mr. Byoir is un-American? 

Mr. Batman. No ; that is not the point at all. 

Mr. Casey. Wliat is it? 

Mr. Batman. You failed to catch it. I want this committee to 
investigate and determine what cooperation there is between certain 



3174 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

parts of big business and the spread of nazi-ism in this country. I 
think they are doing it for the purpose of causing appeasement. I 
think they are working together for that purpose. 

I think I will have something more on that. 

The Chairman. I merely wish to say, since you brought up that 
point, that charges were made that there was some collaboration 
between certain representatives of big business and certain representa- 
tives of the German Government, that the chairman directed a full and 
complete investigation of that matter, and there have been investi- 
gators in New York on it, and in the course of the inves'i^ation we 
have received no evidence sustaining those charges. And we have 
three men there now invest iTating it, going into those affairs and the 
records, so I wish to say that that suggestion has been acted upon. 

Mr. Patman. That is fine. I have some information I will be 
glad to give the committee on it. 

Now, then, summarizing this matter, which I shall back up with 
proof: 

1. Travel offices generally used by Nazis as a front to dissem.inate 
their propaganda. 

2. Byoir employed when he was lieutenant colonel by German 
consul a'ld by Hitler reoresentatives. 

3. Byoir caused to be distributed literature relating to Germany 
and her debts, church and state, and anti-Semitism. 

4. Bvoir's crime is as great in time of peace as treason would be in 
time of war. In fact, his conduct would have been treason in time of 
war. Time element makes no difference. Each one is a serious 
offense, although there is evidence in the files of tliis committee that he 
represented the German Government as late as 1938. I am making 
no claim about that at all, so it is not necessary to a'o into it even, and 
it is not necessary to follow it up, but the point is: Did he ever represent 
the Hitler goverrm.ent? Was he ever engaged as a lieutenant colonel 
to distribute Nazi literature in this country? It n^akes no difference 
whe^i it was. That alone to my mind would be sufficient. 

The only question is: Are the allegatiors I make relative to his 
employ me^^t and activities true? If so, he should not be a lieutenant 
colonel in the United States Army at sundown this evening. 

I resneC'fully submit that every alleo-ation has been proven. 

I urp-e that this committee investigate big business' connection 
with Nazi propaganda in this country. These thoughts should not 
be overlooked: That Vierick was a partner of Byoir, if not now; that 
Dr. Hinnrich Albert was a partner of Bvoir when he was German 
commercial attache here. Dr. Albert is now the partner of Gerhardt 
Westrick, now German commercial attache here as Hitler's secret 
emissary to influ(Mice Wall Street leaders. 

I just make that sugoestion in connection with the big business 
part that was mentioned a while ago. 

Now, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that sworn testimony cannot be 
improved upon, and Mr. Mason suggested that the McCormack com- 
mittee's testimony should not be used. I respectfully disagree with 
him for the reason that when that testimony was taken it was not 
known that Byoir was a lieutenant colonel in the Army. Ofttimes in 
the trial of lawsuits a stranger can take a transcript of the testimony 
and possibly not see the points at all, but someone who is familiar 
with it, or who has given it study and thought, can take it, piece it 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8175 

together, make a case out of it, and a good case. So, in reference to 
the McCormack committee's testimony I am bringing that out only 
for the purpose of bringing this matter up to date to sliow you that 
it is ahsohitely material now, and that the charges that I made are true. 

And 1 do not think any member of tliis committee will say that if 
Lieutenant Colonel Byoir, or any other colonel or officer of the United 
States Army, ever represented Hitler that they should remain a 
lieutenant colonel, or any other rank, in tlie United States Army, 

Air. VooKiiis. Can I ask you a question at that point? 

Mr. Patman. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. As I understand it, your point in that particular 
respect is made on account of the fact that Lieutenant Colonel Byoir 
was in the Arnij^, and it is not made because he represented some 
other foreign agency; is that right? 

Mr. Patman. I think he is guilty, both as an American citizen, and 
particularly because he was an otticer in the Army. I think he was 
guilt}'' of conduct unbecoming an American citizen, as w^ell as conduct 
certainly unbecoming a United States Army officer. 

Mr. VooRHis. But what I mean is that we have many people in 
this country, and have had over a period of years, of course, who have 
had connections with foreign countries in various ways. We might 
not like it very much. But what I am trying to get at is whether 
that is the main point, or whether the main point you are making is 
the fact as an officer in the Army tiiat he did that. 

Mr. Patman. I meant both. As an American citizen it is unbecom- 
ing of him. It is an un-American activity, and I think you will find 
that anything that he has done toward supporting nazi-ism in this 
country in recent years has been because of the big-business element, 
not because of anything else, and I think Hitler ordered his discharge 
for a reason which I would consider, and consider logically, a good and 
sufhcient one, so the point is lie did represent the Nazi government 
while Lt. Col. Carl Byoir was in the Army, and that is the proof I 
want to submit to you gentlemen. 

Mr. Mason. There is no need for that proof, because that was one 
of the findings of the McCormack committee. It has been definitely 
established that he was employed by the German Government at that 
time under this contract, and it has been definitely established that 
he was employed by the German consul, and did receive a certain 
remuneration for it, all of which has been defiintely established. So 
there is no need to bring up evidence or proof of that now. 

Air. Patman. Now, can I answer that? 

Mr. Mason. Sure. 

Mr. Patman. I think there is need, because the gentleman showed 
he had gone over that testimony too lightly, or not carefully enough, 
because he did not get the point. 

Mr. Mason. They did not find against him as to un-American 
activities, and that is the questior,. 

Mr. Patman. I say that they did. That shows one of us is bound 
to be wrong. 

The Chairman. Read the finding. 

Mr. Patman. If Byoir is exonerated he will occupy a key position 
in our national-defense program. It will be one of his duties to have 
charge of recruiting, enlisting, and drafting of the pcrsoimel for the 
armed forces. 

62.;2« — 41— vol. 14 2 



8176 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Lt. Col. Carl Byoir's associates consist of Carl C. Dickey and Vin- 
cent Lancaster. I presume everyone knows that the firm was really 
Carl Byoir. I did not think anyone considered it as anyone else. 

Mr. Casey. If they were associates then he was considered as the 
principal man. 

Mr. Patman. Yes. 

Mr. Casey. I should say that he was the principal man even though 
he had associates? 

Mr. Patman. Yes ; that is right. 

Now, Carl C. Dicke}^ testified before the McCormack committee 
June 5, 1934, and said that his address is No. 10 East Forty-second 
Street, New York; that his business was publicity ard business pro- 
moter. That his firm name was Carl B3^oir & Asscciites; that the 
partnership was composed of Mr. Byoir, himself, end Mr. Vincent 
Lancaster; that the organization had been in business about 3 years; 
that his firm represented the German Tourist Informaticn Office, 665 
Fifth Avenue; that the purnose of the or2"anization was to promote 
trave' to Germany on the railroads and other means of transit, includ- 
ing steamship lines and hotels. 

Dickey admitted that the Government would have some control 
over the German railroads. That formerly his concern was the ad- 
viser of an organization known as the National Committee of Jews 
and Christians, which was called National Conference of Jews and 
Christians, an organization to combat intolerance — religious intoler- 
ance of all kinds. Dickey testified that about March or April 1933 
he was consulted as a representative of Carl Byoir & Associates by 
German interests in New York resrarding the effect upon their business 
of anti-Semitism in Germany; that he does not remember the exact 
time, but it was in the spring of 1933, after Chancellor Hitler came 
into power in Germany. That he had a contract with the Germ.an 
Tourist Information Office for Carl Byoir, commencing October 1, 
1933, which obligated the tourist office to pay them $6,000 a month 
for 18 months, Mdiich represented $108,000. That about all they did 
for the $6,000 a month was to give to them advice and counsel and 
cooperate with them in getting up material for travel promotion; that 
they also got out a little bulletin called the German-American Eco- 
nomic Bulletin. That is about all that he could recall that they did 
for their money. 

That he sent out some material for the consul general in New York, 
page 35, that the German consul's name was Dr. Kiep, and he also 
had conferences with Dr. Schwarz and Dr. Borchers, when they were 
consuls there. 

Dickey said he was in Berlin in August 1933. That he knew 
George Sylvester Vierick and had known him for 10 years. That he 
knew of Vierick's activities during the World War; that Vierick re- 
ceived $1,750 a month out of the $6,000 paid to Carl Byoir; that he 
could not think of anything that Vierick had done to assist Carl 
Byoir & Associates, although they furnished him an oflSce and stenog- 
rapher; paid all the electric bills and other incidental bills around his 
office, besides the $1,750; that Vierick's office rent was w^orth about 
$1,000 a year, which they paid. 

Byoir also had a Berlin office. 

Mr. Casey. $1,000 a year? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8177 

Mr. Patman. That was the office rent only. He got $1,750 a 
month. 

Mr. Casey. That is just for that German Travel Office? 

Mr. Patman. I do not know what it was. He was up there in 
B^^oir's office. He had an office with them. I do not know what he 
had him doing. 

Dickey testified, page 38, that Carl Byoir kept a representative of 
his o^^Tl in Germany; that his name was Fred Hamlin, and that his 
office was in Berlin. And that was during the time that this was go- 
ing on, and they had an office in Berlin and also one in New York. 

Dickey said that his firm got out an economic bulletin. Seventeen 
of these bulletins were gotten out. They were assisted in getting out 
the bulletins by their representative in Germany, also by a committee 
composed of Sclimidt — incidentally, Schmidt is the president of that 
German Tourist Information Office that your representatives went 
into the other dav. 

Mr. Casey. This is in 1933? 

Mr. Patman. It was in 1934 that this testimony was given. 

Mr. Casey. You are talking about 1933? 

Mr. Patman. This is with reference to the 1933 contract. 

They were assisted in getting out the bulletins by their representa- 
tive in Germany, also by a committee composed of Schmidt of the 
German Tourist Information Office and Schroeder of the North 
German Lloj^d Steamship Line, Mr. Beck of the North German 
Lloyd, or rather the Hamburg-American Line, Dr. Degener, of the 
German-American Board of Trade and Mr. Johnson, Leipzig Trade 
Fair. Dickey said perhaps they were members of it too and there 
were also one or two others who were members that he did not name, 
he said. About 5,000 copies of the bulletin were printed each time 
and sent out principally to newspapers and different publications; 
that the material for it came from Mr. Hamlin of the Berlin office. 
In other words, Byoir had an office in Berlin, with a man there who 
would furnish him information over here, and he would take that 
information and disseminate that information from the New York 
office. 

Mr. Casey. "Wliat kind of information was it? 

Mr, Patman. I do not know what kind. I know what some of it 
was. I do not know what all of it was. 

Some few things were prepared by Vierick from his own organization 
and some items from the members of the committee. 

Dickey said in tlie issue of January 29, 1934, there was an article 
on German}^ and her debts in the bulletin. That the reason it was 
carried was because the question of debts had some bearing on trade 
and travel. 

That answers the chairman's question as to the discussion on 
any of these bulletins you can always say that refers to trade and 
travel in Germany, 

Mr, Casey. By the same token, if it was trade and travel, you 
would have to say it was trade and travel, 

Mr. Patman, Dickey said when he made the contract with the 
German Tom'ist Information Office that no such bulletin as the 
economic bulletin was contemplated or thought of; that he did not 
have it in mmd at all. There is further corroboration that it was 



gl78 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

not necessarily the contract. The contract had nothmg to do with 
this economic bulletin. The only thing they even claimed to have 
done was to get out this economic bulletin, and he swears it was not 
contemplated or thought of when the contract was made. So what 
they did for $6,000 a month was not even contemplated nor thought 
of when the contract was signed. They did not have it in mind at 
all, he said. 

Dickey testified, page 43, that he got up a report on the sentiment 
in America toward Germany. You see, they did not do anything, 
except they were using the Travel and Tourist Office as a front to 
get up sentiment. This report indicates the amount of publicity 
that Byoir was getting for Hitler in this country that was favorable. 
Page 45, Dickey admitted that these reports were submitted in 
German because some of the people who would read them could not 
read English; that some of the reports went to their man in Berlin, 
Mr. Hamlin. 

In other words, they tested the sentiment of this country, got up 
reports, put them in the German language, and sent them to their 
man in the Berlin office. 

Dickey admitted, page 46, that he collected for Carl Byoir & Asso- 
ciates $4,000 from Dr. Kiep, the consul general in New York, in 
currency. 

Nothing was said about whether it was in cash or bills. Dickey 
himself admitted it was ui currency. He said it was an unusual 
amount to be paid in currency, but it was paid in bills. 

That Vierick took him to see Dr. Kiep and Dr. Kiep asked him to 
get out some releases for the consulate, which he did, and for getting 
out these releases, including the postage, they were paid the $4,000. 

Dickey stated, page 48, that on his trip to Germany, his employers 
paid about two-thirds of his expenses, and he paid the other third. 

Page 50, Dickey admits that he had meetings with the German 
consul and at these meetings the policy of the German Government 
toward certain rnces of people in this country were discussed. He 
further admitted it was one of his duties to minimize the effect of the 
anti-Semitism policv of Gernuuiy in this country; in other words, to 
combat the effect of that policy in this country; that in order to get 
the sentiment of the people they had read about 60 newspapers a day 
from all sections of the country. When the reports were compiled, 
some of them were sent to Hamhn in Berlin and some to Mr. Schmidt 
of the Railroad Bureau and Vierick always looked at them, said 
Dickey. 

Mr. Casey. That was Bvoir's representative? 

Mr. Patman. That was Byoir's representative. 

The reports were gotten out about once a week; sometimes every 
10 days or twice a month. 

Dickey testified, page 53, that Byoir had been receiving two or three 
thousand dollars a month to represent this same concern before the 
wiitten contract was entered into. 

The committee will notice that the written contract was entered 
into on November 23, 1933, I believe, but within a very short time 
less than 60 days after Hitler went in as chancellor on January 30, 
1933, the German consul and the German Toiu-ist Information Office 
also employed Bvoir. And that the Germ^an consul paid him $4,000 
and the German Tourist Office paid him $2,000 or $3,000 a month. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8179 

Dickey testified that the German consul paid him $4,000 to obtain 
piibhcity in this country on tlie question of anti-Semitism. 

The $4,000 was paid by the German consul to Byoir in May of 1933, 
see page 56. 

Dickey admits, page 58, that they never represented the railways 
or the German Government until after Hitler came into power. 
Dickey admits, page 58, that the railroads were under control of the 
German Government. 

Mr. Casey. Let me see if I got that right. You say that Byoir 
was paid two or tlu-ee thousand dollars a month prior to the contract? 

Mr. Patxman. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Casey. Was it prior to Hitler becoming chancellor? 

Mr. Patman. No; it was after Hitler became chancellor. Byoir 
did not get any contract, nor receive any money, until after Hitler 
went in. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, this is going over all of the testimony 
that was taken by the McCormack committee, and it is a rehash of 
the same, and what we are interested in now is the findings of the 
McCormack committee rather than the testimony, wliich is all old 
stuff. 

Mr. Patman. If the gentleman will bear with me about 2 minutes 
I will get to that. 

Page 60, Dickey testified that he sent out, at the request of Colonel 
Emerson, a pamplilet dealing with church and state in Germany. 
I am sure the members of this committee loiow something about the 
background of Colonel Emerson. He was one of the first to come 
here representing the Nazi form of Government in America. He had 
-charge of Nazi activities in 1933 and in subsequent years. 

Dickey has testified that he sent this pamplilet out at the request 
■of Colonel Emerson, and it was printed by the Friends of New Ger- 
many, 17 New Battery Place, New York City; incidentally, this is 
the same place where the Facts in Review publication is printed and 
Vierick is one of the editors. It is where the German Consulate is 
located. 

On page 61 Dickey praised Colonel Emerson's work by saying that 
he was doing a fairly good job. Dickey sent the church and state 
pamplilets to the same list that he sent the economic bulletins. 

The testimony of Vincent Lancaster, page 67, was that he was a 
member of the firm of Byoir & Associates; that he was treasurer 
and business manager; that he merely takes care of the books and just 
business matters; and that there was a journal entry of $4,000 every 
month which was collected from the German Consul, and that he 
gave Mr. B3'oir $2,000 of it and gave Mr. Dickey $2,000 of it. 

Now, in regard to Vierick I hope that the committee will give me 
an opportunity to go into that a little bit more fully, because I believe 
it is important in view of what this committee is now investigating, 
as well as this particular investigation. 

The gentleman from Illinois asked me to get to the findings of 
this committee. This committee was composed of the Honorable 
Jolm W. McCormack, chairman, Samuel Dickstein, vice chairman, 
Charles Kramer, Carl Weideman, Thomas Jenkins, J. Will Taylor, 
and U. S. Guyer. And the resolution giving the committee its power 
•was passed on March 20, 1934, by the House, House Resolution 198. 



8180 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The committee derived its authority from House Resohition 198, 
adopted by the House on March 20, 1934. Byoir left immediately 
for Europe. 

The committee was charged with the duty of conducting an investi- 
gation to find out the extent, character, and object of Nazi propaganda 
activities in the United States, the diffusion within the United States 
of subversive propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries 
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by 
our Constitution, and all other questions in relation thereto that 
would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The first public hearing was conducted by the committee on June 
5, 1934, in Washington, D. C, and is covered in Report No. 153, 
Seventy-fourth Congress, first session of the McCormack committee. 

The committee report covers two periods. The first one, the time 
prior to the designation of Adolph Hitler as Chancellor of Germany, 
and the second one covering the period after Adolf Hitler became 
chancellor and to the present time. That is, the time of the report 
which was made February 15, 1935. 

Let me quote the committee's report. I am quoting it now: 

During the first period, as we have characterized it, efforts were inaugurated 
by individuals and groups, who beheve in the pohcies of the National Socialist 
German Labor Party, to establish them here. This committee has evidence of 
such efforts particularly in the cities of New York and vicinity, Chicago, and 
Los Angeles. They sought diligently to bind together in this country people of 
German birth and German descent into a political group that was and was to be 
directed from abroad, in distinct violation of every known American principle. 

Another quotation: 

These individuals organized a group which became known as Teutonia, and 
which, through various stages, finally becam.e known, after the advent of Adolf 
Hitler, as chancellor, as the Friends of New Germany, which brings us to the 
second period of activity. 

That was a quote. 

After Hitler became chancellor of Germany, what was done 
throu2:h the Friends of New Germany in the United States to dissemi- 
nate Nazi propaganda? 

And I quote: 

Early in the history of the Friends of New Germany the leadership was usurped 
by one Heinz Spanknoebel, an alien, who entered this country claiming to be a 
clergyman. 

Mr. Casey. Wliat was that name again? 

Mr. Patman. What was that? 

Mr. Casey. I said — what was that nam.e again? 

Mr. Patman. Spanknoebel. Maybe I did not pronounce it cor- 
rectly. I do not know whether I have been pronouncing these namea 
correctly or not. 

Mr. Casey. I did not know; but was it Spanknoebel? 

Mr. Patman. What is that? 

Air. Casey. T said- — was it Spanknoebel? 

Mr. Patman (spelling): S-p-a-n-k-n-o-e-b-e-1. 

The Chairman. That is right ; Spanknoebel. 

Mr. Patman. And I am. still quoting: 

One of his first activities was to take over, by intimidation and without com- 
pensation, a small newspaper in New York published by the German Legion, which 
paper he largely financed by subsidies under the guise of advertisements granted 
him by the German steamship lines as well as the German railways. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8181 

In other words, gentlen\en, the same people that were behind 
Spanlviioebel were behind Byoir, and I make that comm.ent because 
the money was coming from the same source, and that is the reason I 
am bringhig this in. 

And 1 quote again: 

Documentary evidence before the committee obtained from the companies 
shows that this subsidy was ordered from Germany and amounted, in the case of 
the steamship hnes, to §600 per month and in the case of the railways to $200 per 
month without regard to the amount of space used. The evidence estabhshed 
that S])anknooijel ordered another American-German paper in New York City to 
discontinue its publication, which order, while resented, was complied with. 
The evidence also shows that he undertook to determine and supervise the news 
and editorial pohcy of certain other American newspapers, and that in at least one 
case his orders were refused and his efforts resisted. 

Spanknoebel was working for the same people who were usmg the 
same "front" that Carl Byoir was working for. Spanknoebel was 
working at the same time that Carl Byoir was workmg. In other 
words, the two of them belonged to the same group that was attempt- 
ing to sell nazi-ism to the American people. 

Mr. Mason. Wait one moment. 

Mr. Patman. Just a moment, please. 

Each, however, had his own distmct duties to perform in that 
connection. Spanknoebel, a clergyman; Byoir, a publicity man; but 
both workmg for Adolf Hitler. 

Air. Mason. The fact that Mr. Byoir was working for the German 
Government, and that Spanloioebel was working for the German 
Government, and that Spanlvnoebel perhaps was doing certain tilings 
and Byoir doing certain other things, and then you say Byoir is to 
be blamed for any un-American activities which Spanknoebel did? 

Mr. Patman. Not personally did, but carrying out this program, 
both of them playing on Hitler's team — Byoir one part and Spank- 
noebel the other. 

Mr. Mason. Hitler's team at that time had not shown his mailed 
fist. 

Mr. Patman. Oh, I think so. 

Mr. Casey. It was after that that Colonel Lindbergh and Henry 
Ford got medals from the German Government, and at a time when 
there was not such a dispute as there is today. 

Mr. VooRHis. Is this what you are reading now? The testimony 
from the committee? 

Mr. Patman. Those are the conclusions of the committee, the 
unanimous conclusions, except I do not know why Mr. Weideman 
did not sign it, but these are the conclusions of the McCormack 
committee. 

What influence did Spanknoebel exert over German organizations? 

The members of the German organizations consisted in the main 
of aliens. 

Spanknoebel, indicted by a grand jury in New York in the fall of 
1933, when both he and Byoir were working for the German Govern- 
ment. He is now a fugitive from justice. 

Spanknoebel's organizations in this country took orders from the 
members of the Cabinet of Germany. 

And I am now quoting again: 

He also became very active in, and obtained control of, the Stahlhelm, a Ger- 
man veterans' organization, causing those members who were opposed to his 
policies to v.'ithdraw, and utilized the remainder of the membership and this 
organization in the Nazi movement. 



8182 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Further quoting: 

Through devious methods he gained control of the United German Societies of 
New York — a body in that city composed of delegates from many American- 
German organizations — causing a breach among the members which has not yet 
been healed. As a result of such efforts Spanknoebel exerted tremendous influ- 
ence on the various organizations, most of which had been in existence for decades 
in the United States. 

Successful efforts were made to establish locals or units of the Friends of Nev^ 
Germany in many other American cities, the membership consisting in the main 
of aliens, and the evidence clearly shows that the movement received the direct 
and indirect aid of certain accredited German representatives to this country. 

In the fall of 1933 a Federal grand jury in New York City indicted Spanknoebel 
for failing to register as the agent of a foreign country, and he is now a fugitive 
from justice. 

His successor, Fritz Gissibl — 

I presume that is right — 

one of the original founders of the Teutonia, also an alien, then became the leader 
of the Nazi group in this country and carried on the same general activities. 

Later Gissibl was succeeded by one Reinhold Walter, who is a citizen of this 
country. This was done in an eff'ort to give the organization the appearance of 
being American in character, although Walter admitted to the committee that 
Gissibl remained the real head of the movement and continued to dominate its 
policies, altliough he, Walter, desired to divorce the organization from its German 
connections. Mr. Walter was succeeded, in July 1934, by Hurbert Schmuch, a 
naturalized citizen and college graduate, who was chosen for the position by 
Gissibl and continued Gissibl's policies. He is the present party lead r. 

Although started 7 or 8 years ago, its self-appointed leaders did not seek to 
charter their organization until the fall of 1934. Recently Justice Edward J. 
McGoldrick, of the supreme court, New York County, N. Y., refused to grant 
them a charter. 

However, lack of a charter, lack of a constitution or bylaws or any of the steps 
usually taken by American organizations, did not hinder these leaders from 
functioning. 

The evidence plainly shows that they took orders not only from the National 
Socialist German Labor Party but from some members of the Cabinet of that 
country. 

That is the end of the quotation. 

Now, then, did Lt. Col. Carl Byoir engage in un-American propa- 
ganda activities while he was working for the German consul or for 
his German principals in 1933 and 1934? 

This can be answered by an excerpt from the committee report. 

Now I am quoting from that committee report: 

This committee foimd indisputable evidence to show that certain German 
consuls in this country, with all the appurtenances of diplomatic immunity, 
violated the pledge and proprieties cf diplomatic status and engaged in vicious 
and un-American propaganda activities, paying for it in cash, in the hope that 
it could not be traced. 

The references in that committee report to support this statement 
are to the testimony that Byoir received $4,000 from the German 
consul. So there is a statement from the committee itself that he was 
engaged in un-American activities. 

Mr. Mason. Oh, no. That is that the German consul at that 
time was engaged in putting this across. 

Mr. Patman. Would the gentleman say that the fellow on the 
other end of the line was not just as guilty? 

Mr. Mason. I would not say it. 

Mr. Patman. I would. 

Mr. Mason. I might be hired by someone with reference to Ger- 
man activities, but that would not mean that I was hired for un- 
American activities. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8183 

Mr. Patman. Let me finish. 

Did Carl Byoir engao:e in vicious and un-American-propaganda 
activities in 1933 and 1934? The answer is "yes." The McCormack 
investigating committee said that he did. 

Mr. Mason. I have not found it. 

Mr. Patman. How can the German consul engage in un-American 
activities and pay Lieutenant Colonel Byoir in the United States of 
America here to help him without Lieutenant Colonel Byoir being 
engaged in un-American activities at the same time, when he was paid 
to engage in it? That is what I cannot understand. If the gentleman 
takes that position 

Mr. ALISON (interposing). The German consul can hire this man 
to do a certain thing, and that man to do a certain thing, and that 
other man to do a certam thing, and because one was engaged in 
German activities does not prove that this one over here is. 

Mr. Casey. May I point out this situation: A gentleman was 
engaged in certain activities before McKesson & Robbins, and nobody 
would say that he was engaged in un-American activities. 

Mr. Patman. I have not done anything wrong with McKesson & 
Robbins; and if you say I did anythmg wrong then put it down in 
writing and say it. 

Mr. Casey, I have not said whether you did it or not, nor accused 
you. 

Mr. Patman. That is unfair. You do not say I did anything 
wrong. 

Mr. Casey. No; I did not. 

Mr, Patman. Then why bring it up? 

Mr. Casey. I am making a point analogous to your point that this 
man w^as engaged in un-American activities. 

Mr. Patman. No; it is not analogous at all, and it does not touch 
either side, edge, or bottom. 

The Chairman. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Patman. All right. 

Did Carl Byoir engage in vicious and un-American propaganda 
activities in 1933 and 1934? 

I just read that. 

When Lt. Col. Carl Byoir w^as working for the German consul and 
for the German Tourists' Information Office, the front organizations 
for Adolf Hitler, did he engage in propaganda activities? 

This can be answered by another excerpt from the committee. 
Remember, this is John W. McCormack, and five other members, who 
signed this report, wliich says: 

Several American firms and American citizens as individuals sold their services 
for express propaganda purposes, making their contracts with and accepting 
compensation from foreign business firms. The firms in question were Carl 
Byoir & Associates and Ivy Lee — T. J. Ross. 

Mr. Mason. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Patman. Therefore, the McCormack committee said that Carl 
Byoir sold his services for express propaganda purposes. 

And there is a finding of the committee that he was engaged by 
German interests for the purpose of disseminating propaganda. 

Mr. Mason. And that was legitimate, and is legitimate, even today. 

Mr. Patman. Let us see about that. 

Mr, Mason. And it has been recognized, even by the Registration 
Act. 



8184 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Casey. That is right. In 1938 Congress passed a law with 
reference to that. 

Mr. Mason. And recognized it. 

Mr. Casey. Making it necessary for representatives of foreign 
governments to register as to their activity. 

Mr. Patman. So that was the finding as to propaganda of the Mc- 
Cormack committee. 

Mr. Mason. Yes; German propaganda. 

Mr. Patman. That is right. But they said they sold their names 
for express propaganda purposes. 

Mr. Mason. That does not mean that propaganda was un- 
American. 

Mr. Patman. The gentleman can place any interpretation on it he 
desires, but I am merely stating what the report of the committee 
says. 

Mr. Mason. I have read that committee finding, and have read 
it very thoroughly. 

Mr. Patman. The McCormack committee made another finding 
that Carl Byoir was propagandizing the country for Nazi Germany. 

The committee report is the best evidence. An excerpt is quoted 
herewith: 

Carl Dickey, junior partner of Carl Byoir & Associates, testified that his firm 
handled the contract with the German Tourist Bureau with the fee for service 
set at $6,000 a month. He testified that the contract was secured with the help 
of George Sylvester Viereck, who received $1,750 per month with free office space 
and secretary as his share of the $0,000. The committee finds that the services 
rendered by Carl Byoir Associates were largely of a propaganda nature. 

Mr. Mason. That is right. That is the finding of the McCormack 
committee. 

Mr. Patman. Wliat kind of propaganda was the McCormack com- 
mittee investigating? 

Mr. Mason. Nazi propaganda. 

Mr. Patman. That is right, Nazi propaganda. And they found that 
this firm and its services were largely for propaganda purposes. Is 
not there a difference between distributing propaganda and travel? 

Mr. Mason. No. 

Mr. Patman. I thought there was. 

Mr. Mason. It is very far-reached, it seems to me, when the 
McCormack committee found, on the basis of the evidence of Carl 
Byoir & Associates, that they were hired by an agency of the German 
Government for certain work, mainly propaganda, if you want to 
call it that, that that is un-American activities. There is a difference 
there. 

The Chairman. Let us see if we can get at what the situation is. 
It seems that Mr. Patman is making the charges, as expressed in the 
McCormack hearings, which is that Mr. Byoir was engaged in un- 
Amorican activities by reason of the fact that he was employed by 
the German Govern.ment. 

Mr. Mason. That has been established. Those are not the 
charges, but they are established facts. 

The Chairman. And in addition to those charges, which accord- 
ing to the record here terminated in what year — what year did his 
connection terminate? 

Mr. Mason. 1934. 

Mr. Patman. In 1935. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8185 

The Chairman. In 1935. Now, from the period of 1935 up to 
the present date is there any difference, or do you make any cliarge 
that he either continued tlie relationship, or that he has been engaged 
in it since? 

Mr. Patman. I have made no effort, because what better proof do 
you need? If a man is guilty of treason 50 years ago would you 
trust him in the Army now? And if he was guilty of conduct equal 
to treason 5 years ago would you trust him in the United States 
Army now? 

Mr. Mason. Of course, that is a matter of opinion, as to whether 
it is equal to treason. 

Mr. Patman. You have a letter in your files from a man in Miami, 
Fla., stating that he was representing the German Government in 
1938. I do not need it here. The mere fact that you can, or I can, 
prove it at any time is sufficient. 

The Chairman. I am trying to get your charges straight. And 
you say up to 1935 he was a representative of the German Govern- 
ment or, rather, an employee for propaganda purposes, and based 
upon that and upon the record of the McCormack committee, it is 
your contention having once been found guilty as a representative 
that he is now guilty of un-x\merican activities? 

Mr. Patman. And that he is not a fit person to be a lieutenant 
colonel in the United States Army, and that he is guilty of un-American 
activities for doing that, not only as a citizen, but as an officer in the 
Army. 

The Chairman. You mean he is guilty of un-American activities 
up until 1935? 

Mr. Patman. We laiow he was then. 

The Chairman. You have no evidence since then? 

Mr. Patman. We need no further evidence. What more do we 
need, or do you need? If you have a colonel in the Army who has done 
something that has been equal to treason in time of war, what woidd 
you do with him? 

The Chairman. I am not confusing his position as a colonel in the 
Army with liis position as being guilty of un-American activities. 
Your position was that because up until 1935 he was employed by the 
German Government that he was guilty of un-American activities? 

Mr. Patman. That is right. 

The Chairman. xA.nd there is no record that while he ceased his 
activities in 1935, though nevertheless you thmk he should be dis- 
charged from the United States Army? 

Mr. Patman. That is right. 

The Chairman. And your second position is having once been 
guilty of un-American activities that he is still guilty? 

Mr. Patman. No; that he was guilty of un-American activities. 

The Chairman. Of course, he had a hearing before the Committee. 

Mr. Patman. How is that? 
The Chairman. In the McCormack hearings. 

Mr. Patman. No; he was gone to Europe. The very minute the 
resolution was passed he left for Europe and did not come back until 
the committee adjourned. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, may I make this observation: I want 
to say that so far as Mr. Bvoir's qualifications to act as n lieutenant 
colonel in the Army are concerned, it seems to me that they should 
be based and referred to the Army ofiicdals, and not to this committee. 



8186 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

As to his un-American activities, if those un-American activities 
were after the time of the McCormack committee, which gave him 
a clean bill of health, then it is up to our committee to investigate. 

Mr. Patman. Here is the clean bill of health that the McCormack 
committee gave him: 

Several American firms and American citizens as individuals sold their services 
for express propaganda purposes, making their contracts with and accepting 
compensation from foreign business firms. The firms in question were Carl 
Byoir & Associates and Ivy Lee-T. J. Ross. 

The German Tourist Office referred to in this report is the Gcrm.an 
Tourist Information Office that is now under investigation by the 
Dies committee, and was the front organization for Germany that 
employed Carl Byoir. 

Therefore, this committee of seven members, unanimously declared 
that Lt. Col. Carl Byoir's work was largely of a propaganda nature. 
Wliat better evidence is needed? 

In order for this committee to say that Carl Byoir was not engaged 
in un-American activities, it must say that the McCormack committee 
was wrong. 

At the hearings in New York City before the McCormack com- 
mittee, when George Sylvester Viereck was on the witness stand, 
Vierick testified that he went to Germany in August 1933, to secure a 
contract for Carl Byoir to offset the wave of Nazi propaganda in this 
country. \Vlien asked the direct question if he obtained the contract, 
page 103, he replied that he was helpful in securing it. Wlien pressed 
for an answer, he said he was one of the instrumentalities through 
which the contract was obtained and that the other instrumentality 
was the German Railroad Information Bureau. 

In other words, two of them getting this for Byoir, one the German 
Tourist Office and the other was Viereck, and they are interceding with 
officials in Germany to get Byoir the contract. I think the question 
and answer is self-exnlanatory. 

The Chairman. The point that I have in mind is that there was a 
McCormack committee to investigate un-American activities, which 
they did, and that brought it up to what year? 

Mr. Patman. 1935. 

The Chairman. And all you have given the committee 

Mr. Mason (interposing). So far. 

The Chairman (continuing). Is the same testimony and the same 
evidence that appeared before the McCormack committee, and that 
brings it up to 1935, and that is a matter of record. I mean whether 
it goes in this committee or not it is still a part of the files of Congress. 
And from 1935 to the present, begmning with our jurisdiction in 1937 
or 1938, the question so far as we are concerned is to bring the matter 
from 1935 up to the present time. And this committee takes cog- 
nizance of what took place before the McCormack committee, as we 
have a right to do, but you should bring it up to date, from 1935 to 
1940, and the material question, insofar as our finding is concerned, 
would be determined by what evidence we have from 1935 to 1940. 

Mr. Patman. Mr. Chairman, I do not think that all of this extra- 
neous matter should be brought into this testimony until I have an 
opportunity to present my case. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Patman. I think other extraneous matter should come at the 
proper time. Of course, I am not criticizing the chairman. 



UN-AJNIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8187 

The Chairman. No; but I was trying to get this point over: I 
understand all these matters are matters of record, the iMcCormack 
committee heard them, made a finding. 

Mr. Patman. I will bring it up to date. 

The Chairman. I am thinking about the time we are concerned 
about, of course. 

Mr. Patman. I think I am doing that. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Patman. Therefore it appears that the contract was obtained 
from the German Government through two instrumentalities, Viereck 
and the concern that Byoir was supposed to have represented. The 
following question and answer relative to this contract is self-explana- 
tory : 

The Chairman. As to this particular contract, did you take it up with anybody 
who was an official of the German Railroad? 

Mr. Viereck. I advised all my German friends that it was necessary to do 
something to counteract this wave of propaganda. 

In other words, when Viereck was in Germany in 1933, he was 
convincing everyone he came in contact with that it was necessary 
for Germany to be properly represented in the United States to counter- 
act the wave of propaganda against Germany, which was in effect 
saying, to build up nazi-ism in the United States. 

You see, there is a representative of Byoir talking to the representa- 
tives of Germany in German about a wave of propaganda. They are 
not talking about tourist travel. They want to build up Hitler, and 
build up nazi-ism in the United States. 

Now, about the contract for Carl Byoir. I will quote you some 
testimony. This is from Mr. Hardwick, and he was counsel for the 
committee — but the first is the charge true that Viereck went to see 
Hitler himself about the contract for Carl Byoir? 

Mr. Hardwick. How long have you known Mr. Hitler — Chancellor Hitler? 

Mr. Viereck. I met him for the first time, I believe, some 8 years ago in 
Munich, when I interviewed him. 

Mr. Hardwick. Have you seen him since then? 

Mr. Viereck. I have seen him, jes. I met him for the last time late in August 
or in September. 

That was in 1933, while Byoir was representing the German inter- 
ests at two or three thousand dollars a month, as well as the German 
consul in New York. 

Mr. Hardwick. In these last interviews that you had with Mr. Hitler, did 
you discuss German-American relations with him? 

Mr. Viereck. Yes. Before meeting him, I conveyed to him certain ideas 
suggested to me by the American Ambassador at Berhn. 

The testimony discloses that Viereck had quite a conversation with 
Hitler about building up good will for Nazi Germany in America. 

It will be noticed that Viereck said that he conveyed to Hitler the 
ideas suggested by the American Ambassador in Berlin. It will be 
recalled that Byoir was then employed by the German Ambassador 
in New York City and very likely there was a close relationship 
existing between them. 

The time that Viereck refers to as having conferred with Hitler was 
in August or September of 1933, when Byoir was then working for 
the German consul in New York and when Viereck was in Germany 
suggesting a long-time contract for Byoir. 



8188 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Viereck said he discussed better relations with America in all of his 
conversations with the prominent people in Germany when he was 
there in August or September 1933 to get a contract for Byoir. Among 
those with whom he evidently discussed this matter was Von Papen. 
His name is very much in the print now — Von Papen. 

He said he saw him on that trip to Germany and that he was an old 
friend of his. 

The next is: Were Viereck and Lieutenant Colonel Bj^oir partners? 

I will ask the chairman to listen to tliis testimony. 

The testimony before the McCormack committee at the hearings 
in New York, commencing at page 92, disclose that Viereck received — - 
out of the $6,000 per month that Byoir was receiving from the German 
interests — Viereck received $1,000 a month and a commission of $750' 
a month, or $1,750 a month out of $6,000 a month that Byoir collected 
from the German interests. In addition, he had an office with Carl 
Byoir and he was furnished a secretary by Carl Byoir. 

Therefore, Viereck and Byoir were partners. 

The testimony further discloses that at the same time that Viereck 
was working for the German consul in New York, Dr. Kiep, before 
the long contract was entered into in November 1933, that Byoir was 
also working for the Gennan consul in New York, Dr. Kiep. Viereck 
received $500 a month. It is not known what Byoir received at all, 
but it is known that he received at one time $4,000 in cash from the 
German consul in New York. 

What did Viereck and Lieutenant Colonel Byoir do under this 
contract with the German Tourist Information Office? 

Viereck says, page 97, that he did no*i write any bulletins, that he 
may have helped to edit them. When pressed for further explanation, 
he admitted that bulletins were issued, and the first one of the bulle- 
tins issued "were a sheet of press excerpts called Speaking of Hitler.'^ 
[Reading:] 

Mr. Hardwick. That was the first? 

Mr. Viereck. That, I think, was the first. 

Mr. Hardwick. And the second 

Mr. Viereck. The second was an economic bulletin; yes, sir. 

Mr. Hardwick. You did edit or help to prepare these two bulletins, did you not?' 

Mr. Viereck. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hardwick. And he sent them out in this country? 

Mr. Viereck. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hardwick. How many of them went out; do you know? 

Mr. Viereck. I believe between three and five thousand. 

Mr. Hardwick. Of each one? 

Mr. Viereck. I believe so; I did not count them. 

Regardhig different people that Viereck talked to while he was in 
Germany in August 1933, the following testimony, at page 97, is self- 
explanatory: 

Mr. Hardwick. While you were in Germany last year, did you get in touch 
with a man over there named Feltmann? 

Mr. Viereck. Yes. 

Mr. Hardwick. What kind of an office does he hold, if you know? 

Mr. Viereck. As I recall it, I believe he is with the propaganda ministry, 
and I presume he was a liaison official between that bureau and some industrial 
interests. 

Regarding the different people Viereck met and talked to when he 
was in Germany in August 1933, the following testimony, at page 98 
of the New York hearings of the McCormack committee, is self- 
explanatory: 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8189 

Mr. Hardwick. Were you, on these several trips to Germany, in close and 
constant contact with the foreign offices, the foreign ministry, in Berlin? 

Mr. ViERECK. I would hardly say that. I have many friends in the foreign 
office, and I visited them. 

The Chairman. Please answer the question. 

Mr. ViERECK. The question is, whether I was in constant touch with them. 
That means that I communicated with them daily, and so forth. I did not. I 
have friends there whom I visited and with whom I discussed various matters of 
interest to me. 

Mr. Hardwick. That was in connection with this matter of German-American 
relations? 

Mr. ViERECK. Not only that, but it was in relation to material that I sought for 
interviews and articles, materials for books, historical and otherwise, on wliich I 
was working. But naturally they sought my advice. 

Mr. Hardwick. You did discuss, with these German officials, German- 
American relations and policies? 

]\Ir. ViERECK. Undoubtedly. The topic could not be escaped. 

The kind of literature put out by Viereck and Byoir and where it 
was prepared is interesting. 

The following testimony, page 98 of the New York hearing, is 
self-explanatory : 

Mr. Hardwick. That book or pamphlet. Speaking About Hitler, who prepared 
that? 

Mr. ViERECK. It was prepared in the offices of Carl Byoir. 

Mr. Hardwick. Did you give it the final finishing touch? 

Mr. ViERECK. I was consulted on each issue before it was published. I 
occasionally gave them contributions, excerpts, which had come to my attention 
and which I thought should be distributed. 

I think, gentlemen, that is very interesting. There is Viereck, a 
lifelong propagandist for Germany, a man who said he was ashamed 
of America, who is now engaged in propaganda purposes for the 
German Government, and was a partner working with Carl Byoir, 
editing all the information that went out from his office to the different 
people throughout this Nation. I think that is a point worthy of 
consideration. 

People with whom Viereck discussed Byoir contracts in Germany 
in August 1933. 

Commencing on page 104 of the hearings of the McCorm.ack com- 
mittee in Viercck's testimony, Viereck testified that when he was in 
Germany he discussed the Byoir contract with Mr. Winters, of the 
German Railroads, and Mr. Feltmann; that he took it up with them 
personally when he was in Germany and insisted that the sensible 
point was to take some defensive measures; that he discussed the 
necessity of employing somebody in the United States; that before 
the contract was made, he not only discussed it with at least two of the 
officials of the German Railroads, but "with innumerable people in 
Germany.'' 

It then developed in Viereck's testimony that Mr. Feltmann is not 
with the Gennan Railroads at all, but that "he is propaganda min- 
ister," and that the contract was made afterward. 

In the McCormack report, after a discussion of the contract of Carl 
Bvoir and Viereck, the report said: 

The National Socialist German Labor Party, through its various agencies, fur- 
nished tons of propaganda literature, w^hich in most cases was smuggled into this 
country. Some of it, however, came through our customs, because there is no 
laiw against it. This is the committee's report: 

"With the advent of Adolf Hitler as Chancelor, efforts to obtain supporters 
for the Nazi movement were redoubled in the United States. Campaigns were 
conducted, gieantic mass meetings held, literature of the vilest kind was dis- 
seminated, and the short-wave radio was added to the effort." 



8190 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANt)A ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, this is nothing but a reiteration of the 
McCormack report and the findings of the McCormack committee. 
Those are matters of record, and this committee has no right to go 
behind the McCormack report. All we should do is to take into 
account the McCormack report as a starting place, and form our own 
from there on, and there has been not one scintilla of new evidence 
which has been adduced here with this whole morning's testimony. 

Mr. Patman. I do not think the gentleman is justified in saying 
that, but if it will satisfy him I will add three or four more matters 
before I get through. 

Mr. Mason. I am looking for new evidence. 

Mr. Patman. This all connects up. 

Mr. Mason. I am not looking for what I have looked over with a 
fine-tooth comb already. 

Mr. Patman. I think I should have a right to present my case in 
my own way. I think all of this is material. It is certainly material 
to show that soon after Hitler went in office that this man was being 
paid the highest salary in America as the representative of the German 
Government, which is the man we are talking about. 

Mr. Mason. That is all shown in the McCormack report and the 
McCormack testimony. If the gentleman has anything further to 
show than that we would like to hear it. 

Mr. Patman. It is material now, because you have attempted to 
exonerate him of un-American activities, and how can you do that 
when the proof shows that at the time he was spreading Nazi propa- 
ganda, both as to the church and the state? I am under a handicap 
here. That is what I have to overcome. And that is what I wish to 
go into. 

Mr. Patman. It must be remembered that all this was taking place 
while Carl Byoir was representing Hitler under the terms of the 
contract. 

While Byoir was representing Germany under this contract the 
McCormack committee says that the following occurred: 

German steamship lines not only brought over propaganda but transported 
back and forth certain American citizens without cost, for the purpose of having 
them write and speak favorably of the German Nation. A German steamship 
company's records show that some of these persons received free transportation 
at the request of the German Ambassador "in the interest of the state." Mem- 
bers of the crews of these ships carried messages between party officials in Germany 
and leaders of the Nazi groups here. 

It was quite a common occurrence for steamship companies to invite residents 
in this country to attend social i:)arties on board ships while they were in port, 
and persons attending these parties were addressed by representatives from Nazi 
organizations abroad on the subject of nazi-ism and the philosophies of the National 
Socialist German Labor Party. 

All this taking place while Carl Byoir, lieutenant colonel, was 
representing German interests. 

While Byoir was representing Germany under this contract the 
following occurred, according to the McCormack committee: 

The membership lists of The Friends of New Germany showed a large number 
of aliens, who, although they have resided in this country for a number of years, 
had never made an effort to obtain their first papers to laecome citizens. Yet, 
these self-same aliens sought to dictate to American citizens and to find fault with 
the American philosophy of government. 

Wliile all of this was occurring Byoir was one of the players on 
Hitler's team. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8191 

While Byoir was representing Germany under the contract, the 
following occurred [reading]: 

Naturalized German citizens believed that this conferred upon them a dual 
citizenship. 

The Friends of New Germany conducted so-called youth summer camps at 
different localities, at which camps nothing of American history or of American 
principles of government were taught, even to the children of American citizens 
of German extraction. 

On the contrary, the children were taught to recognize Chancellor Hitler as 
their leader, to salute him on all occasions, and to believe that the principles of 
government taught by him were superior to the principles of our Government. 

At these camps the official language was German, the swastika flag was promi- 
nently displayed at the headquarters tent, and at the morning and evening exer- 
cises the flag was saluted in Nazi style, and the director of the camp, in charge 
of these children, was an alien who displayed unusual ignorance of many of the 
principles of the United States Government, and whose personal allegiance was 
solely to the German Government and its present ruler. 

The investigation conducted by the McCormack committee 
extended over the period of time when Carl Byoir was Iviiown to be 
representing German interests. Keeping that point in mind, let us 
see what the committee said about what took place during the time of 
Carl Byoir 's activities. Its report is self-explanatory, and a part of 
it is as follows: 

From the evidence taken by this committee in its investigation of nazi-ism in 
the United States it develops that all kinds of efforts and influence, short of vio- 
lence and force, were used to obtain its desired objective, which was to consolidate 
persons of German birth or descent, if possible, into one group, subject to dictation 
from abroad. 

When this committee was appointed, the Nazi movement had made considerable 
headway, greater in its influence than its actual membership would indicate. Its 
efforts and activity, particularly with reference to its intolerance features, were 
disturbing. 

The disclosures made by the committee not only have stopped their progress 
and caused the activities of certain German accredited representatives to this 
country to cease, but a disintegration of the movement has and is taking place. 
Efforts are still being made by the leaders of the movement but without the success 
that they heretofore enjoj'ed. 

This committee condemns the establishment and the propaganda of the Nazi 
principles in this country. 

There is another committee finding which contains the activities 
of Byoir, because it condemns the propaganda of Nazi principles in 
this country, which he was disseminating, which is a condemnation 
by the McCormack committee. 

Now, then, in bringing it further up to date, I desire to mention a 
few things in connection with travel bureaus, but before I do that 
I would like to offer in evidence a letter from the Secretary of State 
that Byoir is now representing German interests. 

The Chairman. We have that already in the record. 

Mr. Patman. You do? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Patman. And a copy of the contract with the German interests? 

The Chairman. We have that. 

Mr. Patman. And where he obligates himself to cover the news? 

Mr. Mason. That is not Byoir, but Viereck. 

Mr. Patman. I know; but there is nothing in the record to presume 
they were not partners. We know at one time they were partners 
disseminating propaganda, and we know nothing further than that. 

The Chairman. You can offer that. 

62626 — tl— vol. 14 3 



8192 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Patman. You take the White Book, which goes to every 
Member of Congress, and probably goes to a number of people over 
the Nation, and there is postage of 21 cents paid on it, and also here 
is Facts in Review, sent out every week. 

The Chairman. We have all of that. 

Mr. Patman. This is from an organization in New^ York State, as 
well as other propaganda. 

Here is the man who is still disseminatmg Nazi propaganda in 
America, who obtained the contract, and was a partner of Lieutenant 
Colonel Byoir, and yet you say he is not guilty of un-American 
activities. 

The Chairman. If Mr. Byoir is no longer engaged in those activi- 
ties 

Mr. Patman (interposing). But when Lieutenant Colonel Byoir 
was engaged m that activity. 

The Chairman. If Mr. Byoir is no longer connected with Mr. 
Viereck how can you connect him with it? 

Mr. Patman. So far as I know there is nothing to indicate he is not. 

The Chairman. We are going to hear from Mr. Byoir later this 
afternoon as to what he has to say about this matter. 

Mr. Patman. I have here in words, better than I can express 
it in any words, and it is an article in PM about Viereck and about 
this propaganda in America, and I want to ask the indulgence of the 
committee to read it. It is right along this point, and it is in corrobora- 
tion of what I have said. 

Mr, Mason. You have got to connect Viereck and his present 
activities with Mr. Byoir, and that is a pretty difficult thing to do, it 
seems to me. 

Mr. Patman. Byoir represents some of the biggest interests in the 
country, and I believe there is a close working arrangement and coali- 
tion between them in disseminating propaganda; I believe that 
sincerely. 

This is the issue of August 13, 1940: 

George Viereck (Benedict Arnold) Is Germany's Paid Press Agent. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute, Mr. Patman. That is from some 
newspaper, is it not? 

Mr. Patman. It is information better than I can express it. 

The Chairman. What newspaper is that? 

Mr. Patman. It is PM. I think it bears right on this point as to 
these parts of big business, and I presume that the committee will want 
to hear that. 

The Chairman. We have practically all of that. 

Mr. Patman. This hooks up with what I have said. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, we have voluminous evidence to 
show how many Communists are on the staff of this paper from which 
you propose to quote. 

Mr. Patman. ^Vliat is that? 

Mr. Matthews. I say we have voluminous evidence to show how 
many Communists are on the staff of this PM paper from which 
you propose to quote. 

Mr. Patman. Yes. But what does that have to do with this? 

Mr. Casey. I understand they get out a pretty good newspaper. 

Mr. Patman. I know; but I think this is something that corrob- 
orates wiiat I have to present. I have some further testimony to 
present, of course. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIP^S 8193 

The Chairman. We want to give you a full opportunity to be heard 
and want to give Mr. Byoir a full opportunity. 

Mr. Patman. This reads: "Figure in World War Propaganda Is 
Still at Work in Present War," and it is by Henry Paynter. 

Hitler's \o. I Benedict Arnold is George Sylvester Viereck 

Sonic other proiuiiuMit Ainoricans parrot Hitler's Nazi propaganda for America, 
over the radio anci in leading publications, and receive no pay for it. 

But Viereck is well paid. 

Viereck has been playing Germany's game against the U. S. A. — for dough — 
since long before Hitler. 

lie \vas naturalized in 1901, but he still comes close to Hitler's definition of all 
8,000,0U0 German-.\nierican.s — "part of the German nation." 

He has as interesting a Nazi record as anj- U. S. citizen. 

He received scores of thousands of dollars in World War I for activities which 
ended with the exposure of the notorious Dr. Heinrich Albert, then German 
commercial attache here. Dr. Albert is the partner of Gerhard Westrick, now 
German commercial attache here, and Hitler's secret emissary to influence Wall 
Street leaders. 

It was Viereck who wrote to the notorious Capt. Franz von Papen, German 
military attache ousted for spying: 

"I am thoroughly ashamed of my country." 

" lusitania" charge 

It was Viereck who, Albert Ij. Becker, New York deputy attoriiej- general 
charged, received $100,000 from German Government agents, after the U. S. 
entered the irar. 

It was Viereck, according to sworn testimony of a newspaperman, who said in 
advance that the Lusitania would be torpedoed. He later denied he'd said it, 
although he thought it "justifiable." 

It was Viereck who testified in 1934 that he had got $1,750 a month from Carl 
Byoir and Associates for swinging a German Government "publicity" contract 
to that firm. 

It was Viereck who said in 1934: "I am a friend of Adolf Hitler's Germany." 

In addition to special fees, Viereck now expects to earn $15,000 this year for 
his talents in fitting Hitler's propaganda to current U. S. needs. 

In the last World War, German propaganda here was clumsy. Viereck was a 
good deal less experienced. It was i^robably at least equally as effective as 
British propaganda in getting us into war against Germany. 

Hitler didn't want to make that mistake, so Viereck shades Hitler's Nazi 
propaganda in getting us into war to fit nuances in U. S. feeling. 

Viereck is paid $500 a month bj' a Munich newspaper — 

I will Tiot call the name, I cannot pronounce it — 

Miinchner Neueste Nachrichten, Sendlingerstrasse 80, Munich; another $500 a 
month by the German Library of Information, Hitler's official Nazi propaganda 
agency in this country, 17 Battery Place. He lives at 305 Riverside Drive in a 
ten-room, •*3,500-a-year apartment. 

special fee 

During the critical period this spring when Hitler jjlanned his United States 
peace-intervention barrage, helped by Lindbergh, etc., \'iereck got a special fee 
of $1,200 for special consultatioTi from the German Library of Information. He 
expects to get more. 

Hitler zealously tries to get his me.ssage to every .\mcrican. On lowest levels, the 
proi)aganda comes here, now by way of Russia, from the Fichte Bund, Hamburg. 
For middle levels it comes from Welt-Dienst, Work! Service, in eight languages. 

Similar material is broadcast by P'ather Coughlin, the Reverend Gerald Winrod, 
the Dishon. .loe McWilliams, and others. 

For the highest leveb^, there is personal contact, such as Westrick, who uses 
the Tnited States name of A. Webster. Westrick worked on .James D. Mooney 
and many other prominent United States industrialists. 

. It is V^iereck's Benedict Arnold job to corrupt the thinking of backbone 
Americans. His contract with the Germanv Librarv of Information has his 



8194 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

signed promise to prepare news for Facts in Review, official Hitler upper level 
propaganda organ published under the supervision of Nazi Consul General Dr. 
Hans Borcliers, to hold himself at all times for consultation on Nazi propaganda 
problems in the United States of America and to interpret the news to favor Germany. 

VIERECK'S JOB 

3t is Viereck's job 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I protest that Mr. Viereck is not 
before us, and I can testify in connection with the indictment of Mr. 
Viereck, all of which is probably true, and I believe it probably is, 
that he had nothing to do with the situation we are facing and the 
question we have to settle. 

The Chairman. It is now nearly 12, and Mr. Voorhis and some of 
the Members want to be on the floor, and we want to resume at 1 
o'clock. How long will it take you to conclude, Mr. Patman? 

Mr. Patman. I do not know, Mr. Chairman. Probably 30 minutes. 

The Chairman. No longer than 30 minutes? 

Mr. Patman. I am not quite sure, but that is my feeling. 

The Chairman. Do you want to go on, gentlemen? 

Mr. Mason. I would rather stay and finish. 

Mr. Patman. The chairman told me that we would have just the 
morning session, but it makes no difference, and we can continue on. 
Of course, we have the tax bill coming up, and I do not think it will 
help by our being there, because it is under the gag rule, naturally. 

The Chairman. Go right ahead. 

Mr. Patman. If you are having an afternoon session I would like 
to wait until this afternoon, because having gone 2 hours, naturally 
I am just a little bit tired. 

The Chairman. Wliat is the pleasure of the members of the 
committee? 

Mr. Mason. I would rather finish this part of it, and then take 
the other part of it up after lunch. 

The Chairman. All right. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Patman. This is entitled, "Viereck's Job." 

It is Viereck's job to "interpret" or "color" information, whether it is to appear 
in the Free American, Hitler's No. 1 United States propaganda sheet, or elsewhere, 
so that it will further Hitler's strategy in his war against America. 

It is obvious, then, that no Benedict Arnold is doing so much for Hitler in this 
crucial period as Viereck. 

He is assisted by Herr Heinz Beller, actual manager of the library. 

The chief function is to supply information for non-Nazi publications here, and 
for intelligent Americans. Germany's view of the progress of the war is told ably, 
with subtle implication always of Gerro.any's confidence in victory. 

Germany's post-European war economic plans for America are subtly de- 
veloped. 

By som.e strange m.agic, if you write to 17 Battery Place, you get other Nazi 
publications; if you write to Father Coughlin or other Hitlerite publicists, you are 
likely to get Facts in Review. 

The German Library of Information is in the same building as the German Con- 
sulate General, where a bomb went off not long ago. 

MAILING EQUIPMENT 

Its modern mailing equipment takes care of a mailing list of 100,000 individual 
names, including the Young Men's Christian Association, the Young Women's 
Christian Association, clergymen, university faculty inembers. Members of 
Congress, university publications editors, school teachers, and radio commen- 
tators. 

The library also puts out and mails propaganda tracts, such as one to prove 
that Polish atrocities against Germans caused the war. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8195 

They have been successful in getting their statements, including those in spe- 
cial books, reprinted in the Congressio7ial Record, and distributed at public expense. 

Among these were writings criticizing the Federal Bureau of Investigation for ex- 
posing "fifth column" activities. 

Viereck's work in tliis field, important as it is to Hitler, is secondary to Viereck's 
work in toning down Nazi propaganda to fit the palate of the leaders of United 
States opinion, to whom it is fed l)y word of mouth through such persons as 
Westrick, and by slick paper monotonies mailed to selected lists. 

Thanks to Viereck, this vital Hitler propaganda seems superficially harmless, 
legal, even praiseworthy, to millions of Americans. 

So it is not surprising such persons as Charles A. Lindbergh and James D. 
Mooney publich- parrot the same propaganda message as Hitler's short-wave 
radio. 

Moreover, everything they have done has been perfectly legal. Hitler boasts 
that he can spread his power everywhere because the democracies are too dumb 
to prevent his propagandists from conquering before a shot is fired. 

Everything Lindbergh said and Mooney said along the same lines as Hitler's 
propaganda for this country has been perfectly legal. It is clear they have not 
violated the Federal statute against treason. But the two men have done more 
for Hitler than all his bunds and spies here. 

LINDBERGH, MOONEY 

Lindl)ergh is an American idol. Despite his half dozen outbursts favorable to 
Hitler, he may have been until recently the most popular man in the United States 
next to President Roosevelt. His prestige, then, was tremendous. He holds a 
commission as a flying colonel in the United States Army Reserve. 

PM has shown how, sentence by sentence, Lindbergh's recent radio talk 
paralleled official German Government propaganda broadcasts. 

Of all Americans, only Roosevelt could have done Hitler a greater propaganda 
favor. 

Mooney, relatively unknown to the public, has distributed similar ideas. 
^ Mooney is also a Reserve officer, a lieutenant commander in the United States 
Navy, and occupies a key position in United States defense, as liaison and defense 
production man for General Motors. 

SOCIAL JUSTICE 

More than 100 Hitlerite propaganda publications here were hammering away 
at the same thing — one of the loudest and most persistent. Father Coughlin's 
Social Justice, in which official Nazi propaganda is continually parroted. 

In the June 10 issue of Social Justice, Father Coughlin gave the entire back page 
to adulation of Senator Johnson of Colorado. In the same issue Coughlin's 
page one headline was "American Nations Need to Begin Peace Plans." 

On June 10 Senator Johnson introduced into the Congressional Record the fuU 
text of Mooney's speech. 

Then the Congressional Record publication was reprinted at private cost, but 
distributed at taxpaj^ers' cost. 

Thus, at a time when every possible means was being used to get President 
Roosevelt to intervene to bring peace — which would be a Hitler peace — the 
Congressional Record was distributing similar sentiments. 

Asked by PM, Senator Johnson said he did not remember who paid for the 
reprinting, and that the speech had originally been sent to him by somebody in 
Chicago. He said he would look into it. He is for peace, and thought the speech 
was all right because it was for peace, he said. 

Mooney also paid to have the talk reprinted in pamphlet form, and widely 
distributed. 

But that apparently was not enough. 

The Saturday Evening Post claims the largest audience of any United States 
periodical. One of the Post's largest single sources of income is from General 
Motors. In the Post of August 3, Mooney's talk, considerably bolder in amplifi- 
cation, was republished under the heading: 

"Though the Post disagrees with much that he says here, we thought his recent 
speech * * * so hnportant and .so little quoted in the press that we asked 
him to amplify that address for publication here." 

In the Post article, called "War or Peace in America," Moonev again described 
the horrors of war, and said: 

"Germany felt that England and France exercised too great control over the 
food for her people * * *. 



8196 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

"On the day war is declared we can kiss democracy goodby and she won't 
be back during your Hfetime or mine, or during the Hfetime of our sons and 
daughters .* * * 

"We have already done too much monkeying around in the European situation 
during the past 2 or 3 years, joarticularly in the direction of encouraging England 
and France to take Germany on for a fight. 

HELPING ENGLAND 

"Most military authorities agree that the chances of our helping England are 
very slight. The present course of sending over military equipment is not promis- 
ing, because the quantities of such war materials that we can ship in a hurry are 
relatively small. Besides, much of the equipment is out of date. It is not the 
kind of equipment that can stand up against a blitzkrieg * * * 

"There is a lot of loose, theatrical talk going on in the way of encouraging the 
British to make a last stand * * * 

"It is high time to stop this fight and save England from further misery. It 
is high time for us Americans to save our friends, the English, from a further 
beating * * * 

"If we are to save our friends, the English, at all, we must save them right 
now by using our strength in the situation to compel a peace. 

"We have got to state bluntly and frankly to the rulers of Germany and England 
that we insist upon an end to the holocaust * * *. 

LOOKING AHEAD 

"The German military victories in this war have been im])ressive, but farsighted 
leaders in that countrv must look ahead to the world structure after the 



war 



* * ^. 



"England can now, on the strong intervention of a mediator, stop fighting 
without acknowledging shameful defeat and without loss of honor. Even now, 
through a mediated peace, there is still prestige, glory, and honor for all * * *. 

"In other words, what we have to say to the political group in England is, 
'If you won't talk peace now, but insist on continuing with the struggle, we will 
not enter the war in a military way to help you.' " 

This is almost precisely what the German short-wave radio has been saying 
to Americans for 2 months, except that England's plight is depicted somewhat 
more delicately by Mooney. And Hitler does not call the English "Our friends." 

It is almost precisely what Westrick told Mooney 2 or 3 months ago. 

/ know, because I heard Westrick say it, then. At the time, I was a financial 
writer on the staff of the Associated Press. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am just a little bit fatigued, and if you are 
going to have a recess for a while I would like to have a rest. 

Mr. Casey. I would just like to ask you some questions on that PM. 
I do not remember the language, but it shows Air. Viereck was doing 
the work of Hitler in this country, is that right? 

Mr. Patman. Yes. 

Mr. Casey. And it also accuses Lindbergh of doing work for 
Hitler. 

Mr. Patman. I will read what he says about Viereck, which is in 
a little box at the top of the page, which is as follows: 

The man on the front page is George Sylvester Viereck, naturalized citizen of 
the United States of America, who had difficulties during World War I because 
of his German activities — for hire. Then, he wrote lie was "thoroughly ashamed" 
of his country. Now he has a contract with the German Library of Information, 
chief source of Hitler propaganda here, and is well paid for it. The contract 
calls for him to interpret the news in Germany's favor. 

Mr. Casey. What does it say about Lindbergh? 
Mr. Patman. About what? 
Mr. Casey. About Lindbergh. 

Mr. Patman. I really did not pay any attention to that part of it, 
because I was not concerned about it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8197 

Mr. Casey. But you agree with the article with reference to 
Viereck. 

Mr. Patman. It corroborates what I have said. 

Air. Casey. Do you agree with what it says about Lindbergh? 

Mr. Patman. I am not making any statement as to that. 

Mr. Casey. You put it in evidence. 

Mr. Patman. I put it in evidence; yes. 

Mr. Casey. Do you agree with what it says about General Motors? 

Mr. Patman. They are not concerned in this investigation. It was 
not material. 

Mr. Casey. Do you agree with what it says about the Saturday 
Evening Post? 

Mr. Patman. I am not answ^ering as to that. 

Mr. Casey. If we follow that course of procedure we will finish 
very shortly. 

The Chairman. What is the pleasure of you gentlemen? I wonder 
if we possibly can conclude. 

Mr. Patman. I think 30 minutes would possibly conclude what I 
have to say, but you must realize that I have been talking over 2 
hours already. 

The Chairman. Suppose we come back at 1 o'clock? 

Mr. Patman. I would not like to be bound by exactly half an hour, 
but I feel reasonably certain that I can be here. It is now^ 12:10. 

The Chairman. You see, we are very anxious to conclude this as 
soon as we can. 

Mr. Patman. These charges were made May 27, Mr. Chairman, 
and I do not see why they should be rushed and hurried through in 
1 day. Of course, that is for the committee. I am more or less a 
guest of the committee, and I realize that. 

The Chairman. Of course, I think you have been very much in- 
dulged here, and permitted as much latitude as we possibly have, and 
we want to conclude this if we can today. And there is the finishing 
of your testimony and the hearing of Mr. Byoir, who wants to be 
heard. 

Mr. Patman. The committees usually recess until 2 o'clock. If 
that is all right with the committee it would suit me very well. 

The Chairman. We have often recessed until 1 o'clock. It just 
depends upon whether you insist on it or not. 

Mr. Patman. I am not going to insist on anj^thing. Whatever 
the committee wishes to do will have to be all right with me. 
The Chairman. Let us say at 1 :30. 

Mr. Patman. You know when a fellow has talked 2 hours and 
sometimes you do not get much rest in a half an hour, and you have 
to take a meal during that time. 

The Chairman. Suppose w^e say we reconvene at 1 :15. 

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p. m., a recess was taken until 1:15 p. m. 
of the same day.) 

after recess 

(The committee reconvened at 1:15 p. m., pursuant to the taking 
of the recess.) 

The Chairman. We will proceed. 



8198 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

TESTIMONY OF HON. WRIGHT PATMAN^Resumed 

The Chairman. Go ahead, Congressman Patman. 

Mr. Patman. Mr. Chairman, if it is agreeable with the committee, 
I can insert some of this material in connection with my remarks, and 
it need not be read at all. 

Do I have the privilege of revising and extending my remarks, and 
inserting such things as I consider material? 

The Chairman. You can just go along, and we will see what it is. 

Mr. Patman. You say, for instance, although the committee has 
this registration statement, it is not in any record that I know of, 
and I want to insert it in the record. 

The Chairman. We will receive that. 

(The registration statement referred to is as follows:) 

Department of State, 
Washington, June 27, 1940. 
In reply refer to Co 800.01B11 Registration— 
Byoir & Associates, Inc., Carl: 

My Dear Mr. Stripling: I acknowledge the receipt of your letter of .lune 
18, 1940, and, in reply, have to inform you that neither Business Organizations, 
Incorporated, 10 East Fortieth Street, New York City, nor National Consumers 
Tax Commission, 310 South Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois, is registered in 
conformity with the provisions of the Act of June 8, 1938, as amended, requiring 
the registration of agents of foreign principals. 

Carl Byoir, 10 East Fortieth Street, New York City, also is not registered in 
conformity with the provisions of the law mentioned above, but Carl Byoir and 
Associates, Inc., 10 East Fortieth Street, New York City, registered as agents of 
the Transpacific News Service, Inc., on October 7, 1938. By letter dated October 
16, 1939, however, a sworn affidavit was submitted stating that the agency re- 
lationship described in their Registration Statement had been terminated and, 
accordingly, their Registration Statement was withdrawn from the public files of 
the Department pursuant to the provisions of section 4 of the Act. I may add 
that although this Registration Statement and its accompanying documents are 
no longer available for public inspection, this material will, of course, be open to 
inspection by your Committee upon request. 
Sincerely yours. 

For the Secretary of State: 

(Signed) A. A. Berle, .Ir., Assistant Secretary. 
Mr. Robert E. Stripling, 

Secretary, Special Committee on Un-American Activities, 

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Patman. And I would like to introduce the letter from the 
Secretary of State also. 

The Chairman. We will receive that in connection with your 
statement. 

(The letter referred to is as follows:) 

June 20, 1940. 

My Dear Mr. Patman: I acknowledge the receipt of your letter of June 17, 
1940, and, in reply, have to inform you that George Sylvester Viereck is registered 
with the Secretary of State in conformity with the provisions of the act of June 8, 
1938, as amended, requiring the registration of agents of foreign principals. A 
copy of the registration statement submitted by Mr. Viereck, together with copies 
of the supplements thereto, is enclosed for your information. 

In addition to his contractual relationship with the German newspaper, 
Mlinchner Neueste Nachrichten, Sendlingerstrasse 80, Munich, Germany, Mr. 
Viereck also performs services in connection with the preparation of the publica- 
tion. Facts in Review, which is published by the German Library of Information, 
17 Battery Place, New York, N. Y. The German Library of Information is 
registered in conformity with the provisions of the law mentioned above in the 
name of its director, Mr. Heinz Beller, under the number 364 and date September 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8199 

8, 1939. According to its registration statement, the "German Library of Infor- 
mation is a library of public information on the social, cultural, political, and 
economic development of Germany. It comprises several thousand books, 
pamphlets, periodicals, newspapers, official documents, and standard works on 
law, economics, history, philosophy, art, sport, etc. Its services are available 
upon request." 

Sincerely yours, 

Sumner Welles, Acting Secretary. 

Mr. Patman. Are we ready to proceed? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Patman. The German railroads have always used the travel 
bureaus and tourist offices for propaganda purposes. 

Mr. Russell B. Porter, of the New York Times, made a trip to South 
American countries within the last 60 days, and his articles have 
appeared in the New York Times daily, and disclose a great amount of 
German propaganda that is being disseminated, and also discloses the 
tremendous sums spent in this country for that purpose. In this 
article, which appeared in the New York Times, it was stated — I will 
not read all of the article — but it says, "Travel Official Implicated." 
It reads, in part: 

Herr Voigt, who used his railways office as a propaganda center, was shadowed 
and discovered ordering the printing of thousands of anti-Semitic pamphlets. He 
was also charged with organizing Nazi parades and demonstrations. Herr Voigt 
was arrested and expelled from Chile about a year ago. His case was handled so 
quickly that the German Embassy and his powerful friends had no time to 
intervene. 

And if it is agreeable with the committee, I will insert the balance of 
it in the record. That is all that they do, use those offices for propa- 
ganda piH'poses. 

(The editorial referred to is as follows:) 

EX-DICTATOR HEADS GROUP 

Another is the Chilean nationalist movement, whose former leaders. Gen. 
Carlos Ibanez, former dictator of Chile, and Gen. Ariosto Herrera, were 
expelled from Chile after loyal regiments discovered and exposed a plot to estab- 
lish a regime on the Italian model. 

Another organization that has been investigated is the Association of Friends 
of Germany, consisting of many prominent Chileans, including retired generals, 
university professors, writers, and intellectuals who were educated in or have 
visited Germany and admire German "kultur" or feel grateful for favors shown 
them in Germany. 

This group meets regularly to talk about Germany. Its members make pro- 
German statements in press and lectures and on the radio, especially coming to 
Germany's defense when she's attacked. 

The heading of this article was: 

Nazis in Chile closelj^ watched for evidence of subversive acts — Travel agent 
deported upon discovery that he financed an anti-Semetic paper — Enormous sums 
spent for ])ropaganda. 

This is especially interesting, in view of the fact that Lt. Col. 
Carl Byoir claimed to be only a travel agent representing the German 
Tourists' Information Service in the United States while he was 
employed by the German Consul in New York and other German 
interests after Hitler came in power. 

There was the head of the Russian Tourist Information Service 
convicted for buying Navy secrets. That is a case which is on all 
fours, so far as using fronting is concerned, with this one. 



8200 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Honorable J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investiga- 
tion, was the author of an article on how spies operate, in the magazine section 
of the daily newspaper for July 28, 1940, issue of This Week. In this article he 
discussed what I presume to be the only case in which the Department of Justice 
has obtained a conviction of an agent of a foreign government under the espionage 
statute. In this article, Mr. Hoover stated: 

"SALICH-GORIN CASE 

"A case handled by Naval Intelligence and the F. B. I. about a year ago throws 
further light on the manner in which spies operate. Hafis Salich was born in 
Moscow, Russia, in 1905. In 1920 he emigrated to the United States. He had 
attended St. Joseph's College in Yokohama, Japan, and spoke Japanese fluently. 
After he arrived here he completed a course at a business college in Seattle, Wash. 
He worked for steamship companies oflf and on until 1926, when he became a 
member of the Berkeley, Calif., police department. He worked there imtil 
1936, when he was given a leave of absence to work on a special assignment for 
the Navy Department. In the meantime, he became acquainted with Mikhail 
Nicholas Gorin, who arrived in the United States on January 10, 1936, to take 
over the management of the Pacific coast division of Intourist, Inc., a travel 
bureau designed to promote travel in Soviet Russia. 

"It is alleged that Gorin absent-mindedly left a document in a coat pocket 
that was sent to the cleaner's. A patriotic citizen found it. It immediately 
reached the hands of our eflicient Naval Intelligence. An alert officer recognized 
the document as having come from Navy files. The F. B. I. was notified. A 
joint investigation disclosed that Salich apparently had received $1,700 from 
Gorin for reports that Salich was accused of having secured from Navy Depart- 
ment files. Salich and Gorin were sentenced to serve prison terms for violation 
of the Espionage Statute. As this is being written the case is pending appeal in 
the United Sta,tes Supreme Court. 

"Espionage agents have but one code: 'The end justifies the means.' The 
meaTis can be murder, robbery, burglary, barter of loyalty, or blackmail. 

"Identifying spies is one thing — proving their mission is much more difficult. 
Of even greater importance to the protection of our internal defense is keeping 
a check upon their plans. These plans, as a rule, are carried out by the under- 
lings of spydom. The directors of esjjionage invariably remain behind the scene, 
well protected by many imposing 'fronts.' " 

I invite your attention especially to the fact that Gorin, who was the repre- 
sentative of a travel bureau designed to promote travel in Soviet Russia, induced 
an employee of our Navy Department to sell him valuable secrets, which were 
secured from Navy Department files. Gorin occupied a similar position with the 
Russian tourist agency that Lieutenant Colonel B> oir occupied with the Gennan 
Tourist Information Service when he first commenced spreading Nazi propaganda 
in America. 

Now, another travel agency used as a front. In the Washington 
Times-Herakl, of August 13, 1940, the following article appeared 
relative to 17 Battery Place in New York, which is headquarters for 
German propaganda, and this shows the agency bombed over there a 
short time ago was a tourist information office, just like that used in all 
other fronts as a disseminating propaganda office. 

(The editorial referred to is as follows:) 

Another Travel Agency Used as a Front 

The Times Herald, Washington, D. C, August 13, 1940, carried the following 
article relative to 17 Batterj' Place, in New York, which is headcjuarters for 
German propaganda: 

F. B. I. Bares Gestapo Ring in New York — Evidence Given United States 

By Former German Consul 

By John Cross and Guy Richards 

New York, August 12. — F. B. I. agents, armed with the reluctant testimony 
of German Americans, including the Reich's former consul here, will soon submit 
evidence to the Federal grand jury that the firm of Deutcher Handels und 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8201 

VVirthschaftsdionst, at 17 liatlery Place hero, is the New York, if not the United 
States, he?dc|uartcrs for Hitler's Gestapo, object of heretofore fruitless search 
since the New York German spy trials of 1938. 

This is the firm, licensed as a travel and foreign exchange agency, whose offices 
were damaged on June 20 last by a bomb blast injuring nine persons. * * * 

THREE-YEAR FEUD 

They called Dr. Paid Schwarz, for 4 years German consul here, and from him 
gained confirmation of their suspicions that the June bombing culminated a 
bitter 3-year feud l)etween Dr. Borchers, a scholarly career man in the German 
foreign service, and the Gestapo staff that used the travel agency as a front. 

Colonel Donovan's report on the "fifth columns" in the United 
States is very interesting. This appeared on August 22, and had a 
heatliine, as follows: "Strong 'Fifth Column' In United States Could 
Be Oiu" Undoing — Hitler Conspiring for World Dominion — Immense 
Sums Spent for Propaganda. There have been as many as $200,000,- 
000 annually spent on organization and propaganda abroad. The 
immensity of this sum is a secret. Nazi Germany is not a govern- 
ment — not even a 'folkdom' of the sort Nazi orators talk about. 
Nazi Germany is a conspiracy. Its scope is universal and its aim 
world domination. 

"Its primary agents are as many of the millions of the Germans in 
Germany, and abroad, as can be induced or compelled to serve the 
German fatherland," over here and elsewhere. 

And I ask that the full article be inserted. 

(The newspaper article referred to is as follows:) 

COLONEL DONOVAN REPORTS STRONG 'FIFTH COLUMN' IN UNITED STATES 'COULD 

BE OUR UNDOING' HITLER CONSPIRING FOR WORLD DOMINATION IMMENSE SUMS 

SPENT FOR PROPAGANDA. 

(By Col. William J. Donovan and Edgar Mowrer) 

Since we must ascribe a huge share in Adolf Hitler's incomparable military 
successes to his use of Germans and 'fifth columnists' in victim countries, the 
questions arise: How was such a success possible? 

How are Germans abroad brought to such self-sacrificing enthusiasm for the 
Nazi regime? How above all can foreigners living under relatively mild and 
civilized governments be induced voluntarily to betray their own countries for 
Hitler's Germany? It seems mysterious. 

The answer is $200,000,000 spent annually on organization and propaganda 
abroad. The immensity of this sum is the secret. Nazi Germany is not a gov- 
ernment — not even a "folkdom" of the sort Nazi orators talk about. Nazi 
Germany is a conspiracy. Its scope is universal and its aim world domination. 

Its primary agents are as many of the millions of the Germans in Germany, 
and abroad, as can be induced or compelled to serve the German fatherland. 

ARMED INSURRECTIONS 

Its activities begin with attempted proselyting of Germans abroad, go on to 
the murder and kidnaping of real or fancied enemies, and end in armed insurrec- 
tion against the foreign country Hitler wishes to conc}uer or absorb. 

Such insurrections of Germans actually occurred in Czechoslovakia, Austria, 
and Holland. But for the firm attitude of the United States such an insurrection 
would, many students believe, have occurred in Brazil. 

That the Germans abroad are usually naturalized into something else is no 
hindrance. Pre-war imperial Germany sanctioned tlie double nationality status — 
Germans could, that is, become French or American or Portuguese without losing 
their German nationality. The Weimar republic did not alter this strange con- 
ception and Nazi Germany has made it the center of its Trojan horse tactics of 
placing Germans within the enemy walls. 



g202 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

GERMAN AIMS IN AMERICA 

It is safe to say that a very fair proportion of the nonrefugee Germans who 
have become Americans since Hitler came to power did so with the secret intention 
of turning free and democratic America into their — that is, Hitler's, America. 

Children of Germans naturalized half a century ago are still counted German 
by Berlin and every effort is made to convince them of the fact. 

Naturally the Nazis accept traitors as allies wherever they can find them and 
welcome the assistance of non-Nordics. But peoples racially akin to Germans — 
Scandinavians, Dutch, Flemings, German-speaking Swiss, even Anglo-Saxons — 
are made the object to special proselyting as belonging to the "same blood." These 
form the material with which the Nazi world conspiracy chiefly attempts to work. 

The center is the Nazi Party. The tool is the Auslands organization (or 
"organization abroad") of this party. Today this organization of Germans 
abroad has nearly 4,000,000 members, all of whom are conscious agents. Over 
600 local groups or "supporting points" are organized in 45 or more "landes- 
gruppen" — one in each country. 

DIRECTED BY ERNST BOHLE 

The headquarters is in Stuttgart, but all the groups are directed by a single 
man in Berlin, Gauleiter Ern.st Wilhelm Bohle, with some 800 assistants. Tech- 
nically Bohle is a "state secretary" in the German foreign office. Where the local 
branches dare not appear under their true colors they take on fancy names — -in 
Rumania, the Iron Guards; in Switzerland, True Confederates; in the United 
States, Amerikadeutscher Volksbund. 

But everywhere, whether the members are Germans, naturalized Germans, or 
non-Germanr, the aim is the same — to achieve Hitler's end by trickery or terror; 
the organizing principle is the same, with SA and Hitler Youth and Hitler Sport, 
marching, emblems, ruthless discipline, ceremonies in honor of Nazi heroes or 
Hitler's birthday parties; and in case of war they would all be on Germany's 
side. In time of peace they make lists of Hitler's enemies, who are marked down 
for murder or kidnapping to Germany and torture when the great day comes. 

SELLING Germany's cause 

Organized Germans abroad are publicly told to 'obey the laws of their guest 
country' but at the same time urged to 'convince every outsider of the necessity 
of Germany's victory.' The Nazi party Auslands-Organization is by no means 
the only entity that works for Hitler outside Germany. 

Particularly important, notably in countries like the Third French Republic, 
is the work of the press attaches in the German embassies and consulates. Not 
only do they see that the 1,700 German language newspapers outside Germany 
(total circulation 3,000,000) are supplied with interesting material of all sorts at 
the price no other source can meet, but they also watch over German radio 
programs. 

Special attention is given to winning over possible Nazi friends on the local 
press and combating or bringing into disrepute newspapers and periodicals that 
oppose Hitler. 

GESTAPO EVER ON WATCH 

The German Gestapo of Heinrich Himmler, whose ruthless efficiency surpasses 
even the Russian Ogpu, employs only about 5,000 agents abroad. One of its 
special tasks is watching over German refugee emigrants, but it does not scorn to 
cast an eye even on Nazis in good standing, some of whom have been known to 
speak slightingly of the Fuehrer or to express a passing wish for greater personal 
freedom. 

Therefore one or more agents can be foimd in every German consulate or 
embassy abroad. A good angler can manage to locate others in the larger German 
commercial enterprises such as shipping or oil companies. 

In addition to the agencies already mentioned, there exists a colonial political 
department headed by Gen. Franz Ritter Von Epp, Hitler's special friend, which 
carries on a livel,y pro-Nazi propaganda in the former German colonies and among 
Germans in colonies of other countries. 

Although there is some doubt, presumably it is the Gestapo that picks out 
special agents for particular jobs in countries that happen at a particular moment 
to interest the Nazis most. Rumor speaks of a high-class German technician 
who managed to find a relatively insignificant job in an American broadcasting 
company. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8203 

Broadcasting plays a great role in German spy life. Not only the agents 
possess tiny senders with which they transmit information unfit for the public, 
but they receive instructions carefully concealed in ])ublic broadcasts from the 
fatlierland. One such typical broadcast was that called Kamaradschaftsdienst, 
supposedly intended for the soldiers at the front. 

USE OF GERMAN SERVANT GIRLS 

Tliere is no claim that this description of the German propaganda service is 
complete. Conceivably there exist other even more interesting services. But 
this much should make it clear why Adolf Hitler has been so successful in utilizing 
Germans abroad and creating "fifth columns" among his enemies. 

Thanks to the pains taken and the money spent, Hitler has in nearly every 
country been able to do considerable in breaking down the national morale and 
enlisting traitors. One particularly good dodge is in most places the creation of 
two Nazi organizations, one of which acts in a strictly legal way. 

Another (until it was found out) was the use of German servant girls. DutclV 
employers of a particularly "dumb" German cook were surj)rised to hear her 
conversing in the kitchen with a perfect stranger in fluent Oxford English. She 
was dismissed, and took with her the more important famil\' papers. 

TOURISTS COLLECT INFORMATION 

German exchange students, carefully schooled in espionage and propaganda, 
collected no end of information in Switzerland. Strength-through-joy tourists 
carefully majiped Poland for the Reichswehr. It must alwa^'s be remembered 
that no German receives police permission to leave the Reich, regardless of the 
motives, until he or she promises to report everything seen and heard abroad. 

Each must declare his address to the nearest Nazi ofhcial and keep in touch 
with him so far as circumstances permit. 

Hi the United States an organization of Nazis is being trained in arms. As 
matters now stand it is conceivable that the United States possesses the finest 
Nazi-schooled "fifth column" in the world, on which, in case of war with Ger- 
many, could be our undoing. 

WOULD BAN GERMAN PRESS 

Could, but need not be. The Nazis are strong only where unopposed. Where 
they are resisted, where the initiative is taken from them, they tend to collapse. 
The revelations in the American press of the fortunes amassed and held abroad 
by leading Nazis kept Goebbels busy denying it for 2 weeks. 

It is hard to see why under present circumstances, in view of "fifth column" 
activity observed abroad, countries that do not intend to submit to the Third 
Reich permit any Germany-language publications or why they do not adopt 
legislation allowing naturalizations obtained under false pretenses to be annulled 
by executive act, or do not insist on knowing just what domestic industries and 
commercial houses have tie-ups of any sort with the Nazis. 

Failure to do this, failure to study and combat the entire Nazi Auslands organi- 
ization, may have tragic consequences. Unearthed in time, the Nazi conspiracy 
is relatively harmless. 

Air. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I really do not see the relevancy of 
these articles to the question before the committee. 

The Chairman. Wliat Mr. Patman wants to do is to establish the 
fact that these tourist concerns are used by Germany as fronts. 

Mr. Mason. That fact has been established time and time again 
before this committee. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Mason. And it was established before the McCormack com- 
mittee. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Mason. And why should we take up all of this time to establish 
the fact it has been accepted? 

The Chairman. All rig-ht. 



8204 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Patman. If it is accepted that Lt. Col. Carl Byoir was being 
used as a front to disseminate propaganda I would not care to intro- 
duce any further testimony. 

The Chairman. You may proceed. 

Mr. Patman. And if that is conceded I have one more item here I 
would like to introduce. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Patman. The following article appeared in the New York 
World-Telegram, November 2, 1939: 

Germany Lost no Time in Launching Offensive on Propaganda Front 

(By George Britt) 

The Goebbels propaganda assault began operations long before there was 
anything Vjut quiet on the western front. Former Germans, to the third and fourth 
generations in America, were approached and wherever possible were organized 
according to their social class. Vast mailing lists were collected — of persons to 
receive propaganda or to be called on for money or services or to bombard Con- 
gress with letters. 

As I stated, Lt. Col. Carl Byoir was the first highly paid Hitler 
agent in this country; and one of the main things, as I understand, 
that he was doing was to furnish names of people, secret mailing lists, 
and things like that, and I think this committee, if they have not done 
it already, should certainly get a list of the names furnished these 
people who were engaged in Nazi propaganda, without a doubt, and 
possibly they are still being used. 

Every possible ally, however temporary, was enlisted. Every means was 
utilized — lecturers, news dispatches, publicity hand-outs, papers, magazines, 
radio l^roadcasts — for putting Nazi Gerinany's message across. 

I will ask that you put this whole thing in. 
(The editorial referred to is as follows:) 

Germany Lost No Time in Launching Offensive on Propaganda Front 

(By George Britt) 

The Goeljbels' propaganda assault began operations long before there was any- 
thing but quiet on the western front. Former Germans, to the third and fourth 
generations in America, were approached and wherever possible were organized 
according to tlieir social class. Vast mailing lists were collected — of persons to 
receive i)ropaganda or to be called on for money or services or to bombard Congress 
with letters. 

Every possible ally, however temporary, was enlisted. Every means was 
utilized — lecturers, news dispatches, publicity hand-outs, papers, magazines, radio 
broadcasts — for i^utting Nazi Germany's message across. 

MR. viereck 

And as if for old-times' sake, there also was George Sylvester Viereck, now 
registered with the State Department as a German agent. 

Mr. Viereck, who called himself "the Kaiser's spokesman in America" and 
piililished his Fatherland weekly during the last war, was returned to the head- 
lines in 1934 by the McCormack investigating committee. It was shown that 
he had got $1,750 a month for publicity for Nazi Germany and an additional 
$500 a month for advice concerning propaganda to the consul general. 

Mr. Patman. I have a prepared statement here as to nazi-ism, and 
it is not very long, and I would like to ask permission to insert it 
instead of reading it, if it is all right. I assure you that it is along the 
lines of tilings which is not entirely cumulative, and some of it is in a 
very different way than what I have gone into. 

The Chairman. What is the purpose of it? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8205 

Mr. Patman. The purpose of it is to show what other people think 
about spreading Nazi propaganda in this country, and how it spreads, 
and the resuhs of how it spreads. 

The Chairman. Su])pose we receive that as an exhibit. 

Mr. Patman. I would rather have it in as part of my remarks. 
I assure you it is proper and material. 

The Chairman. Just place it in the record, and we will go over it. 
Wlio is it by? 

Mr. Patman. I forget the man's name, but it is a chapter in a book 
on nazi-ism and I am advised that this chapter is by Albert Brandt. 
I imagine you have it in your office, because I think every Member of 
Congress got one. It was published in 1934. It is a well-recognized 
book, received all over the country. 

The Chairman. If you wish to introduce it we will receive it as an 
exhibit. 

Mr. Patman. Then it is not copied in the testimony, as I under- 
stand it. If I am mistaken about it it will be already a part of the 
record, but I would rather have it in my testimony. It is not long, 
and merely a double-spaced typewritten sheet. 

The Chairman. It explains the operation of Nazi propaganda? 

Mr. Patman. That is it entirely. 

The Chairman. Put it in. 

Mr. Patman. All right. 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 

A well-knit active organization with iron discipline replaced the rather slip- 
shod body which had preceded Hitler's rise to dictatorship. The work of this 
group did not pass unnoticed in the liberal press, however. There were protests 
against this dissemination of ideas inimical to American institutions and tradition. 

April 30, 1933, the German leaders ostensibly dissolved their American branch 
and recalled Manger. 

May 1, 1933, the Xazis established in America the "Friends of Xew Germany." 

Soon after May 1, another organization, "The Friends of Germany," was 
organized for the purpose of spreading Nazi ideas to Americans of non-German 
origin. The omission of the word "new" in this second title is a typical example 
of what the Xazis no doubt felt to be a master stroke of intrigue. They doubtless 
thought it would be easier to enlist Americans as friends merely of Germany than 
as friends of the "new" Germany. 

Dr. Xieland's decree, previously referred to, was reproduced in the January 
1933, number of the Nazi organ, America's Deutsche Post: "In order to consoli- 
date all local German groups in America," the decree reads, "and to pave the 
way for the establishment of units to comprise an American section of the Xa- 
tional Socialist Party, I hereby appoint Comrade Heinz Spanknoebel, of Detroit, 
national confidential agent for the United States of Xorth America. * * * 
The confidential agent shall be responsible only to the chief of the foreign divi- 
sion (Xieland) . It shall be his task to build up the national movement * * *." 
The Voelkiseher Beobachter on August o, 1933, hailed the organization of Xazi 
cells in America and referred to Heinz Spanknoebel as their leader. The paper 
stated that one of the objects of the American group was to raise a fund of 
$5,000,000 to spread Xazi ideas. 

October 29, 1933, a big German Day celebration was staged for the New York 
Armory, but it was not held because Mayor O'Brien prohibited the celebration 
on the ground that it would be dangerous to the peace of the city. 

December 10, 1933, the meeting was held under the auspices of the Steuben 
Society. It turned out to be a X'azi ma.ss meeting. 

Members of the "Friends of Xew Germany" have organized an extensive 
espionage system. Every German refugee is carefully watched. If he is a 
Xazi follower, he will be assisted in every way possible; if he is not a follower of 
Hitler, he is watched very carefully and reports made to immigration authorities. 

The Xorth German and Hamburg-American Lines' offices in Xew York are 
hotbeds of Xazi propaganda in America. The Xorth German Lloyd director, 
H. Mensing, is the official representative of the Xazi Labor Front in America, 



8206 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

working under the direction of Dr. Robert Ley, his direct superior in Germany. 
Employees of these lines, in accordance with the German laws, have been forced 
to join the Nazi shop organizations. Mensing has forced thousands of German 
employees of American firms to join the labor front on the threat that if they 
should ever return to Germany they would be refused jobs and persecuted. The 
steamship lines have brought tons of propaganda to this country. As recently 
as on February 7, 1934, the New York Times informed its readers that United 
States officials had discovered six burlap sacks containing 300 pounds of Nazi 
propaganda on the German freighter Este. All thip material was addressed to the 
chief propagandists in New York and other cities. A share was consigned to 
The Friends of the New Germany. Naturally this propaganda dealt with 
the Jewish question, though the anti-pacifistic and cultural phases of Nazi ideology 
were duly stressed. Spanknoebel is reported to have fled to Germany on the 
S. S. Deutschland without registering as a passenger. According to the New 
York World-Telegram, Colonel Emerson did the same thing on the S. S. Europa 
late in January 1934. Propagandists are smuggled into this country after coming 
across ostensibly as members of the crew. Nazi conspirators have complete 
privacy for their conferences aboard these ships in port. Employees of the lines 
have taken part in Nazi meetings in New York. 

American children have not been overlooked by the Nazi propagandists. In 
New York a group called the Hitler Youth has been formed, on the surface a 
kind of boy-scout movement, but actually a recruiting movement for the Storm 
Troops. The literature distributed to the children included such statements as 
"If the world at large bares its teeth at Germany we will smash it." Clearly 
the main objective of this group is to breed soldiers for a war in which nazidom 
will conquer the world. 

Colonel Emerson maintained a "translation and advisory bureau" in the 
Whitehall Building, 17 Battery Place, New York, which is also the address of 
the German consul general. This happens to be the same place where the 
publication Facts in Review was issued and a May 20, 1940, issue sent to each 
Member of Congress by special delivery. 

T. St. John Gaffney helped Emerson. 

Frederick Franklin Schrader also helped Emerson. 

Ferdinand Hansen, Joseph J. O'Donohue, Rev. Francis Gross, Arthur Fleming 
Waring, and others, helped him. 

But these are the more obvious propagandists. Far more dangerous are those 
who pose as unbiased. They include professional lecturers, college professors, 
"good will" lecturers and exchange students. Their name is literally legion, but 
there is space here to mention but a few. 

Douglas Brinkley, former National Broadcasting Company announcer and news 
commentator, was one of the numerous American publicists who were invited to 
Germany ostensibly to study conditions there. None of this group, which included 
such men as George Sylvester Viereck, paid his own expenses. These visits have 
already begun to show results in a wave of propaganda. Brinkley, for instance, 
had no sooner returned to this country than he told a New York Nazi audience at 
the Central Opera House that Hitlerland is a vertiable paradise, that the concen- 
tration camps are models of humane comfort, and that stories of atrocities are all 
untrue. Brinkley was the only man who addressed this meeting in English. He 
informed the audience that he intended to travel throughout the United States to 
carry this message. Mr. Brinkley, as far back as July, 1933, knew what he wanted. 
On July 11, he declared from a German short-wave radio station: "I came to 
Germany to become acquainted with actual conditions — to establish the naked 
facts, and to enlighten the American people about the new Germany. Nowhere 
have I been able to find even the slightest sign of unrest or mistreatment. I am a 
witness that all disquieting reports about Germany are mere fabrication." 

Brinkley is regarded today as the most important Nazi propagandist in America. 
The Nazis hope he will eventually secure time on the national radio networks 
here. In the meantime he is preparing to syndicate a series of articles. The 
Deutsche Zeitung on January 20 said of him: "We know Germany has a very 
good friend in Douglas Brinkley, and we hope, in the interest of our fatherland and 
of the whole world, that his important voice will be heard so that the world will 
know better the blessings of National Socialist Germany." 

But it is Viereck who is the real "brain trust" of Nazi propaganda in America. 
It is Viereck who sends an indignant letter of protest to the editor whenever an 
American publication exposes the machinations of the nazidom here. It is 
Viereck who censors all the Nazi publicity material in this country. Viereck's 
trip to Germany was made with Carl D. Dickey of the firm of Carl Byoir and 
Associates of New York, the publicity outfit which formerly represented the 



UN-AMElilCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8207 

infamous Machado. Apparent!}' the theory of the Nazis was that if tliis firm 
could sell Machado to the American public it could sell even Hitler and Goering. 
The, no doubt, tlisintcrested opinions of Messrs. Viereck and Dickey on Germany 
will soon be fed to Americans through a series of syndicated articles. One may 
expect that these gentlemen will be more circumspect than the crude, outspoken 
George Schmitt. 

German exchange students arc seeking in this country to dujjlicate the success 
of the Nazis in Germany in winning the support in universities. If anti-Semitism 
appeals so readily to European students, the Nazis reason, why not to American 
students? Before the exchange students leave Germany they must sign a pledge 
to speak only good of the Hitler regime. 

A dcmanci that the activities of German exchange students at American uni- 
versities be investigated to disclose whether they are exchanged in Nazi propa- 
ganda work was made in October 1933, by Dr. Franz Boas, professor of anthro- 
pology at Columbia University. In a letter to Representative Samuel Dickstein, 
chairman of the House Immigration Committee, Boas cited the official order of 
the German Government recjuiring all exchange students in foreign countries to 
spread Nazi propaganda. 

The Nazi press in America is urging its readers to buy good receivers for short- 
wave radio broadcasts from Germany. "German stations on the air every night 
for North and South America," headlines the German Outlook, English edition 
of the Deutsche Zcitung. There are three broadcasts on short-wave stations 
every daj', spreading propaganda from Germany to the United States. 

The German consul general's office in New York had been the center of most 
of the propaganda in this country. Here much of the funds were distributed. 
Bills for propaganda activities were frequently paid by Herr Loeper, treasurer 
of the German general consulate, and the receipts sent to Berlin along with diplo- 
matic correspondence. Ambassador Luther, formerly of the moderate and 
republican People's Party, with the accession of Hitler became an ardent Nazi 
supporter. Propaganda bills have also been paid by Dr. Degener of the German 
American Commercial League, which, with the German-American Board of 
Trade and the German Legion, has carried on active anti-Semitic and pro-Hitler 
propaganda. 

The drain on the German Government's funds was such that in June 1933 
Dr. Luther and Dr. Kiep, acting on orders from Berlin, summoned German big 
businessmen in this country to a meeting at the consulate and told them it was 
their duty to finance Nazi propaganda in America. Adolph Scheurer, director 
of the American office of the Hamburg- American Line; Willi von Meister, Ameri- 
can representative of the Dornier Motor Works, Friedrichschaven; Gen. A. Metz 
and Von Rath of the I. G. Chemical Corporation, were given leading roles in 
organizing big business as a factor in Nazi propaganda. 

Mr. Patman. I respectfully submit that I have shown positively, 
conclusively, and by sworn testimony the following: 

One, that Lt. Col. Carl Byoir accepted enormous sums of money 
from the German consul in New York and from a "front" organiza- 
tion for Nazi propaganda in America, known as the German Tourist 
Information Office, to distribute Nazi literature in America 

Mr. Mason (interposing). May I just interrupt there to say, have 
you said you have shown that conclusivelv? Is that the way you 
put it? 

Mr. Patman. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Mason. That was all established by the McCormack com- 
mittee in its findings, and in its evidence that has been printed. 

Mr, Patman. You admit it, that it does? 

Mr. Mason. Yes; I admit that part; yes. 

Mr. Patman. Of course. 1 am glad you do, Mr. Mason. 

As I was saying, including literature concerning church and state, 
anti-Semitism, and in behalf of Hitler's form of government. 

Too, it has been shown that this occurred while he was a lieutenant 
colonel in the United States Army Reserves. 

Therefore, no other proof is needed. The fact that he ever, at any 
time, was guilty of such un-American activity should be sufficient to 

62626 — 41— vol. 14 4 



8208 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

cause this committee to recommend his immediate dismissal and to 
make a finding that he has been guilty of un-American activity. 

Mr. Mason. I cannot follow your logic there, sir. 

Mr. Patman. I appreciate the fact that honest men differ about 
things, Mr. Mason, and, of couree, this matter is a matter about which 
we are all concerned. It is not a matter of any personal feeling on the 
part of anyone, but it is a matter which we consider to be a public duty. 
That is my opinion. 

Mr. Mason. Then there is no personal feeling on my part, and there 
has never been. The first time I ever heard of Byoir was when I was 
asked to sit on a committee and go into this matter. 

Mr. Patman. Further, in regard to a part of big business being 
connected with Nazi propaganda representatives, I ask the committee 
to investigate the connection of Lieutenant Colonel Byoir and George 
Sylvester Viereck and George Sylvester Viereck, Lieutenant Colonel 
Byoir and Dr. Westrick. 

It is my belief that Viereck was here to try to encourage the big 
industrial and financial leaders in this Nation to adopt an appeasement 
policy toward Hitler and Germany, the same kind of policy that 
France adopted; this belief is justified by newspaper and magazine 
accounts of his activities and the fact that he was bold enough to even 
attend one of our national political conventions, at which a candidate 
for President was nominated. Certainly there is sufficient to justify 
an investigation. 

Mr. Mason. I did not get that, Mr. Patman. The fact that who 
was bold enough to even attend a convention? 

Mr. Patman. Viereck. 

Mr. Mason. Of course, Viereck has not anything to do with the 
question before this committee. 

Mr. Patman. I laiow; but I am asking you to bring that in to show 
his connection with Byoir. 

The Chairman. We are investigating Mr. Byoir. 

Mr. Mason. Mr. Chairman, I am connected, we will say, with big 
business. Casey is connected with big business in a different position. 
Because I am connected with big business and I have done things wrong 
or illegal, therefore, because Casey is connected with big business he 
must be just as criminal as I am. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Patman. There is a big difference there. 

Mr. Mason. There is no logic in that. 

Mr. Patman. You have not followed through, Mr. Mason. Your 
premise is not entirely correct. 

Do you want me to read that over? 

Mr. Mason. Yes; I would like to hear it. 

Mr. Patman. It is my belief that Westrick was here to try to 
encourage the big industrial and financial leaders in this Nation to 
adopt an appeasement policy toward Hitler and Germany, the same 
kind of policy that France adopted; this belief is justified by news- 
paper and magazine accounts of his activities and the fact that he 
was bold enough to even attend one of our national political conven- 
tions, at which a candidate for President was nominated. Certainly 
that is sufficient to justify an investigation. 

I realize that I have been seriously handicapped at this hearing; 
that a subcommittee of this committee had heretofore exonerated 
Lieutenant Colonel Byoir without giving me an opportunity to be 



UN-AMEUICAX PROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 8209 

hoard, nii<l without any nttompt to criticize tlic coinTiiittcc. it is nat- 
ural to prcsunu' lluit all thiii(;s being (Kjual, you will have a j^resuinp- 
tion in favor of this subcommittee's action. 

However, I appreciate^ [he opportunity of presc^iting this evidence, 
Avhich T consider is sudicient and to make recommendations as to 
further in(|uiry by this committee relative to a certain part of big 
business' connection with Nazi propaganda. 

And I shall close with this closing remark, that if Lieutenant 
Colonel Byoir ever represented Hitler in this country ho is guilty of 
un-American activity. 

Mr. Casey. Mr. Patman, just one word. When you said there 
was a subcommittee here at which you were not heard they also did 
not hear Mr. Byoir either. 

Mr. Patman. I do not consider that analogous. Do you want to 
justify your position? 

Mr. Casey. I want this tor the record. Mr. Byoir was not heard, 
you were not heard, but your charges were heard. We have no feeling 
in thf matter. We made a finding. And we do not want any infer- 
ence from any statements which you make that there was a hearing 
at which only one side was heard. 

Mr. Patman. I did not make that statement so that it would convey 
the impression that only one side was heard, and I do not w^ant it to 
appear for one minute that I did intend to imply that. I certainly did 
not mean to make that impression. 

But 2 weeks before, or 1 week before this announcement came out 
from the Dies committee that he was exonerated 

The Chairman. Did the announcement come out that they exon- 
erated him? 

Mr. Patman. Yes, clearly; 100 percent, without any doubt. 

The Chairman. As I understand the position of these gentlemen 
it is from 1935 up to the present time, and they w^ere dealing with 
that period, and not undertaking to contradict the findmgs of the 
McCormack committee. 

Mr. Patman. Wliy should you not deal with that, when it was not 
known that he was a lieutenant colonel at that time? In other 
words, subsequent information connected with that should be con- 
sidered to my mind. 

The Chairman. I am not going into that question. The point I 
am making is that if a committee of this Congress, having jurisdiction 
of certain subject matter, hears evidence and renders a finding, and 
another committee, shortly thereafter, comes along, certainly that 
committee could not take the same testimony heard before and from 
a committee standpoint reverse its opinion, without new evidence. 

Mr. Patman. There is new evidence in this. But certainly in 
view of the fact that knowledge about Lieutenant Colonel Byoir at 
that time would produce an entirely dift'eront light on this 2 weeks 
before this came out about the exoneration should amount to some- 
thing, and I went to Mr. Dempsey on the floor, and I told him — 
I will quote it as near as I can; I do not like to quote people, because 
sometimes there is a difference of opinion, but I will do it in this 
case, because I feel it is justified and absolutely necessary. 

I said, "Mr. Dempsey, I am going to Texas tonight because my 
primary is in 2 weeks. Will you need me during that time? If you 



8210 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

do, of course I will make arrangements to stay over. If you do not 
I am going to Texas for 2 weeks." 

He said, "Why, certainlv; nothing will be done during that time 
at all." 

I went on to Texas. I was there a week. And in the meantime 
headlines came out in the papers leaving the impression that I had 
filed charges which were wholly unfounded against Lt. Col. Carl 
Byoir, and he was by the Dies committee exonerated completely of 
any blame whatever. 

I came back and asked Mr. Dempsey about it, and I said I wanted 
to be heard. He said, "Pat, this is too big for politics." I said, 
"Of course; politics are not hooked up in this either. It is just a fair 
trial for a colleague," because I wanted an opportunity to refute the 
dispute. And I am not questioning the sincerity of any member of 
this committee, as I presume you are all honest, but I realize when you 
make a finding you want to support your finding — and I do not blame 
you for it, as I would be in the same position were I in your place, 
but at the same time I am under a handicap in this matter, as you see. 

Mr. Mason. May I say this; that I have listened to all of the testi- 
mony today, and I have not received one scintilla of new evidence 
which we did not go over in carefully going over the Congressional 
Record as to the charges made on the floor, and in carefully going over 
the report of our investigator, and in carefully going over the report of 
the McCormack committee, as well as the investigation of the F. B. I., 
and I have not received one iota of any evidence to substantiate the 
charges made. 

Mr. Patman. I think the gentleman will admit that there is a 
difference in talkmg to someone who has not prejudged a case and one 
who has. Naturally you would lean that way. I am sure I would. 

I think there has been additional evidence, and I think it is very 
clear and positive and to the point. 

Are there any other questions? 

The Chairman. I do not hear any. 

Mr. Patman. Thank you very much for the hearing. 

The Chairman. In accordance with the custom of the committee, 
Mr. Byoir has a right to confer with counsel m the course of his 
testimony. 

Mr. McMahon. Thank you. 

The Chairman. I will therefore ask both of you gentlemen to be 
seated at the witness desk. 

Counsel has no right to ask questions of the witness, but he can 
confer with the witness, and the witness has a right to make any 
necessary explanation in connection with his statements. 

TESTIMONY OF LT. COI. CARL BYOIR, UNITED STATES ARMY 

RESERVE 

(The witness was accompanied by his attorney, Brien McMahon.) 

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. What is your name? 

Colonel Byoir. Carl Byoir. 

The Chairman. Where do you live? 

Colonel Byoir. New York City. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived m New York City? 

Colonel Byoir. Thirty years. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8211 

The Chairman. Where were you born? 

Colonel Byoir. Des Moines, Iowa. 

The Chairman. Wliat profession or occupation are you engaged in? 

Colonel Byoir. I am a public relations counsel. 

The Chairman. How long have you been in that business? 

Colonel Byoir. About 10 years. 

The Chairman. What was your occupation prior to that time? 

Colonel Byoir. I was a manufacturer. 

The Chairman. Where? 

Colonel Byoir. In New York. 

The Chairman. A'Nliat did you manufacture? 

Colonel Byoir. Toilet preparations. 

The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in that occupa- 
tion? 

Colonel Byoir. Oh, for about 9 years. 

The Chairman, ^^^lat was your business prior to that? 

Colonel Byoir. I w^as in the magazine and newspaper business. 

The Chairman. In the magazine and newspaper business? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long were you in that business? 

Colonel Byoir. Back to the time I was 12 years old. 

The Chairman. Mr. Byoir; are you a member of, or have you ever 
been a member of the German- American Bund? 

Colonel Byoir. No. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of, or have you ever been a 
member of the German- American Alliance? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of, or have you ever been a 
member of the Teutonic Society? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been, or are 3^ou a member of any 
organization which advocates, believes in, or preaches nazi-ism or 
fascism? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you, or have you ever been connected with the 
Communist Party? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Or of any organization under the control of the 
Communist Party? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you believe in the principles of the Communist 
Party? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you believe in the principles of fascism? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you believe in the principles of communism? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you believe in the principles of nazi-ism? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You have heard the charges and statements which 
have been made by the previous witness, have you not? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have been in attendance all of the time he 
testified? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. 



8212 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Chairman. It has been the custom of the committee to ask 
ciuestions of the witnesses, and that has been a custom that we have 
seklom deviated from. In view of the fact that the previous witness 
was permitted to make a statement without questions by the com- 
mittee, I think, in fairness to you, you may do so, but you should 
confine yourself to the charges made; that is, your answers should be 
a denial or affirmance of any statement made by the previous witness. 

Colonel Bygir. I should like to address myself, Mr. Chairman, 
first of all 

The Chairman (interposing). Speak as distinctly as you can, and 
as loud as you can. 

Colonel Bygir. Yes. I would like to address myself first of all to 
the last statement made by Mr. Fatman, to the eft'ect that he had been 
handicapped and had had no opportunity to be heard. It seems to me 
the statement is a little defensive. Mr. Patman has said here that he 
is not actuated by any malice, that he has no personal feeling in this 
matter, but that just as a patriotic citizen he thinks that Lieutenant 
Colonel Byoir ought to be exposed. 

I do not think that that statement sincerely gives this committee the 
exact ground upon which these charges grew^ out. In the first place, 
Mr. Patman said that he never made statements that he could not 
prove. Mr. Patman started oft' b}^ saying that he was going to prove 
that Carl Byoir was a propagandist and had been in the employ of the 
German Government. 

Now, gentlemen, I M'ould like to call your attention to the fact that 
that is in itself an admission b}'^ Mr. Patman that he makes statements 
that he would not even try to prove. When Mr. Patman first made 
his charge on the floor of the House, he did not say that 5 or 6 years ago 
Carl Byoir was a propagandist employed by the German railroads, or 
the German consul or the German Government. He said, and I quote 
him from memory because it is burnt into my memory, "I have no 
doubt that Carl Byoir was bought to try to set up the greatest spy 
system in the world and w^as engaged in the effort to infiltrate spies in 
this country's big business." 

There is quite a dift'erence between a publicity agent and a spy, and 
Mr. Patman has made a good deal of complaint after the hasty action 
of this committee. 

I want to tell you that in the present state of the public opinion 
in the United States and the background of the present scene, when 
you say a man is a spy or the head of the greatest spy system in the 
history of the world, that man does not live in comfort during 40 or 50 
days that Mr. Patman regards as too hasty for an investigation by a 
committee of Congress. 

It may be surprising to Mr. Patman that there are those who love 
me; those are those who are associated with me in business, who 
believe in me. How does Mr. Patman think that those people think 
and feel? How does he thuik they feel when he is too busy in a 
political campaign to present his evidence to this committee? How 
does he think that the 200 or 300 people associated with me today 
feel when thej get letters from home saying, "Are you associated with 
the great mass spy? Is that the business in which you are engaged?" 
How does he think that the family of the accused feels? And I do 
not want to draw any tears, gentlemen, but I do not believe there 
were 2 days that went by that the telephone did not ring and questions 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8213 

were asked that caused the tears of tlie gh'l sitting tliere answering 
that telephone. I want to show that there was not a day went by 
that we did not get letters saying, "We are going to blow you up." I 
won't say anybody was frightened, but it was not very nice, in days 
when we were threatened with being blown up. 

Mr. Patman has thought it was too hasty. Mr. Patman has had 
now more than 90 days and he has not said a word now today that 
was not available to these people when he concluded his speech on the 
lloor of the House on the 27th day of May. 

Let us look at his patriotic motives and his bona fides. He said on 
May 27 that he had discovered the greatest spy system in the history 
of the world. What does a patriotic citizen do under these conditions, 
whether he is a private citizen or a Member of Congress? He goes 
to the Department of Justice or to the Federal Bureau of Investigation 
and says "Tliere is some information for you; here is some evidence for 
you." He does not get up on the floor of the House in the character 
of a Congressman, if he is only motivated by patriotic feelings and 
nothing personal. He only last week complained on the floor of the 
House that you had not given him an opportunity to be heard during 
those 50 days. Why didn't Mr. Patman tell the Members of the 
House; why didn't he admit that he had had opportunity to be heard; 
that the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigators had called on 
him; that he had every opportunity to give them all of the evidence 
that he had and that the file of that evidence was available to this 
committee? 

Then, I am sorry to say that I cannot believe the Representative 
when he says that he has no personal feelmg in this matter. The 
fact is that there is a rather long history of personal conflicts between 
Wright Patman and Carl Byoir. 

Up until Ma}' 27, when Mr. Patman made these charges, I can 
assure you that on my part there was nothing personal in that con- 
flict. Air. Patman was a Representative in the Congress of the United 
States, advocating certain legislation, and for several years has been 
engaged in serving the people for cash payments through making 
speeches to them 

(At tliis pomt the chairman sounded liis gavel.) 

Mr. Mason. That refers to the charges that have been made and 
to the assertions that have been made here, and we do want to get 
both sides. 

The Chairman. That is true. His testimony, as I said before, 
ought to be in opposition to what Mr. Patman testified. 

Mr. Mason. But you gave tliis witness permission to give evidence 
as a foundation for the evideiice that he had. Tliis is a general state- 
ment. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Ml-. Casey. I got this feeling. I was very much impressed with 
Mr. Batman's statement that he was acting as an American citizen 
and a Member of Congress, and that he had no feeling. I think that 
if this gentl(>man can show a motive for this, he should be given the 
opportunity to do it. 

The Chairman. Then go ahead. 

Colonel Byoir. I repeat then, that Mr. Patman either felt that 
Carl B}oir was standing in the way of his making $10,000 or $15,000 
a year outside of his salaiy as a Congressman, or he was terrorized by 
Carl Byoir for fear that he might reveal sometliing that he knew Mr. 



3214 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Byoir knew which might reflect upon the conduct of Congressman 
Patman. 

I can say now, gentlemen, that if Mr. Patman was terrorized, it was 
needless, because when the contest over his legislation — the record is 
there before the committee of this same House — that at no time did 
I ever hit Mr. Patman below the belt. We introduced more than 180 
witnesses, and all confined themselves to the merits or demerits of the 
legislation which he sponsored. 

The Chairman. Regardless of the merits or demerits of the legisla- 
tion, the Chairman does not think Mr. Patman would make those 
charges through dishonorable or corrupt motives or through strong 
personal reasons or beliefs. I still believe that you should confine 
yourself to statements of fact. 

Colonel Byoir. Don't you think the malice of the accuser is 
pertinent here? 

The Chairman. Neither you nor Mr. Patman can establish facts 
by opinions. What we are primarily concerned with, is Mr. Byoir 
engaged in dishonorable practice? 

Mr. Mason. Let me interject this. You are a lawyer and I am 
not, but I understand that in all trials, in criminal trials particularly, 
a motive behind the case is always pertinent, and I think from what 
I gather that it is the motive that the witness is trying to develop in 
this matter, and I consider that pertinent. 

The Chairman. Just a moment. I want to confer with my 
associates. 

Mr. Mason. I make the motion, if it is necessary, that we listen 
to the development of facts which would show a notive for the attacks 
upon Carl Byoir. 

The Chairman. All in favor say "aye." 

Mr. Casey. Aye. 

The Chairman. The chairman does not agree with that. The 
Chair has the opinion that if you permit a witness to undertake to 
explore the field of motives, that you are going far afield in that 
connection. 

Mr. Mason. I want him to present facts which, upon the basis 
of those facts, might show a motive. 

The Chairman. There is a vast difference between a statement 
of fact and the deducing of a wrong from those facts. 

Mr. Mason. That is true. 

The Chairman. I admit that while we did accord Mr. Patman 
wide latitude, we have other Members of Congress who appear before 
the committee. Nevertheless, I think that when he attacks a Member 
of Congress on liis record, it is going far afield. It is his opinion, but 
he may proceed. 

Mr. Mason. We should listen to this witness to state facts upon 
which interpretations can be made by the committee. 

The Chairman. All right. Let us proceed, gentlemen. 

Colonel Byoir. Mr. Chairman, it is admitted that I am in the 
publicity business. It is admitted that in 1934 and 1933 we had a 
contract with the German Federal Railway. It is a little bit different 
for somebody to try to get the American people to interpret the 
motives and happenings in that scene in the light of what goes on today. 

It is a first principle in any legal matter, I think, that when you 
have the best record you do not take the second best record. The 
best record of what was done under that contract is the record of 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8215 

the McCormack coininittee. The McCorniack committee heard all 
the witnesses. They could decide whether a man's testimony was 
credible or not. They saw all of the material, and they arrived at 
the conclusion. 

The thing- that I dislike most about this unpleasant business is 
that when Air. Patman made his charges on the floor of the House, 
he then knew that they were false, because within a few days before 
he had gone to the subcommittee of the McCormack committee, 
and the subcommittee had asked liim, "Is there anything in this 
record discreditable to Mr. Byoir?" And the chairman of the sub- 
committee, who certaiidy could not be accused of nazi-ism leanings, 
said to Imn: 

After we saw all the material and heard all the evidence, I made a rejiort on 
the floor of the House in which I commended Mr. Byoir for his American attitude, 
his patriotism, and the way he had handled the whole matter. 

Mr. Patman knew that. He knew it was a publicity contract with 
the German Federal Railroads, and he also knew then and knows 
now that there was no scintilla of evidence to warrant any of the 
espionage charges that he had made. 

Mr. Patman went further. He went to the War Department and 
he made inquiries. He said "Didn't some plans disappear from here 
once or twice that have been reported reached Germany?" And 
they said "Yes, that is the report," and he said, "Colonel Byoir is in 
the Reserves." There are only 120,000 of us, the balance have 
disappeared. "Mr. Byoir must be the thief." 

I think that is just as able a non sequitur as it would be possible 
to find. I might just as well say that there was a murder committed 
in Texas last year and Mr. Patman was in Texas at the time of the 
murder, therefore he must be the murderer, or at least there should 
be an investigation. 

Gentlem.en, I think m.y record as an American citizen is a very 
good record. I served this country during the war, and no call has 
ever been m.ade upon m.e by the Governm.ent of the United States of 
Am.crica to which I have not fully responded. 

Mr. Mason. In what capacity did you serve during the World 
War? 

Colonel Byoir. I was associate chairm.an of the United States 
Governm.ent Committee on Public Inform.ation all through the 
World War. I was the diplom.atic representative sent by President 
Wilson personally to the new countries created out of the Treaty of 
Versailles, after the war, and I have been for m.ore than 9 years a 
lieutenant colonel in the United States Ai'm.y Reserve. 

I am a little sensitive on that last, Mr. Mason, because Mr. Patman 
sat here and said Mr. Byoir did not work up to that. He was just 
kind of appohited to it. 

A m.an docs take a good deal of pride in being a lieutenant colonel 
in the United States Arm.y, and he wants som.ebody to think that he 
earned it. As a matter of fac*^, in the first registration of selective 
service we were 3,000,000 m.en short of the number of men who should 
have registered, and the provost m.arshal called on the public com- 
m.ittee for help in the second selective-service draft, and we were able 
to evolve plans which assisted the Governm.ent to get the full num- 
ber. We picked up the 3,000,000 m.en and got an almost complete 
registration in the second draft. 



8216 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Therefore, the Army might have had reason to believe that Carl 
Byoir, having been through that experience, had some special quali- 
fications to be a lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Reserve, 
and it is a position for wliich j^ou are not paid, it is a position to which 
you devote a good deal of time in working out these plans or assisting 
in working them out for no other than patriotic reasons. 

Since the committee permits me, I want to return to the question of 
why Mr. Patman made these charges against me. 

There has been going on in this country, gentlemen, for the last 4 
years a conspiracy against the American people that has taken literally 
millions of dollars a day out of the wage envelopes of 40,000,000 
workers, and 20,000,000 farmers. 

About 1926 — I will go further back a little since you are giving me 
this latitude — and say to you that about 1919, if my memory serves me 
correctly, a young man by the name of Philip Musica persuaded his 
father to go into the cheese importing business. Mr. Musica's cheese 
importing business prospered amazingly, and very shortly thereafter 
the United States Government stepped in and sent Mr. Philip Musica 
to the penitentiary for defrauding the United States customhouse by 
underweighing the cheese so that it would bear less tariff duty. 

In that — the next was when he persuaded his father to go into the 
natural-hair business, his father being an ex-barber. Natural hair 
was selling for about $80 a pound, because there was a great demand 
for it in those days. That business prospered, and Mr. Musica had 
built up a bank credit of over half a million dollars, but one of the 
banks became suspicious and examined the cases on the dock, and 
found them to be full of worthless trash. So Mr. Musica was again 
criminally indicted and convicted. 

Some years later, about 1923, Philip Musica, swindler and convict, 
turned up in Westchester County, N. Y., under the name of 
Daniel F. Coster, a reputable businessman engaged in the hair-tonic 
business. Hair tonic was made very largely from alcohol, and this 
was in the prohibition days, and Mr. Coster's hair-tonic business 
prospered amazingly, so that by 1926 Mr. Coster had made enough 
money in Girard & Co., who were engaged in the hair-tonic business, 
so that he was able to interest Wall Street financiers to purchase 
that for a million dollars cash, the McKesson & Robbins, a 100-year-old 
reputable manufacturing concern. McKesson & Robbins made 
proprietary medicines and toothpaste and handled drugs, and these 
had to be sold through wholesale dealers to retailers. Mr. Coster, 
who was a genius, decided that if he could get control of wholesale 
houses that they could push the sale of his goods, and he accordingly 
purchased, for common stock in the company which he organized, 59 
of the largest drug houses of the United States, and I am going to tie 
this up any minute, gentlemen. 

Mr. Mason. That is what I was wondering, what this has to do 
with it. 

Colonel Byoir. I will tell you what it has to do with it, Mr. Mason. 
Mr. Coster bought these 61 drug houses, which was a chain whose 
business amounted to more than 50 percent of all of the drug business 
in the United States, and he found that he could not make any 
money, because of the competition of department stores, chain stores, 
who were operating upon a basis of 3- or 4-percent profit, so that 
these companies were making very little money, and that their 
business was being taken away from them by the chain stores. 



rX-AMKRirAX I'ROT'ArxAXDA ACTIVITIES 8217 

Mr. Coster then decided that if he could get some legislation that 
he could cover up what he was doing. Mr. Coster was faking the 
inventories of this company to the extent of $20,000,000. Mr. Coster, 
in a single year, stole $1,300,000 from this company, but he knew that 
if he could get legislation first to fix prices, and second, to make his 
competitors ofTer these goods at the raised prices, and thirdly, to put 
his competitor out of business, that he could make money and cover 
up all ol this fraud and speculation. 

I am not going to adopt Mr. Patman's tactics. Therefore, any- 
body, if he did anything that Mr. Byoir ever heard of, Mr. Byoir is 
equallj- guilty. Mr. Patman took $4,800 from Coster-Musica making 
speeches for the stuff that Coster wanted to popularize. The checks 
were made out to cash and 

Mr. Mason (interposing). Of course, that does not make Mr. 
Patman to be wrong? 

Colonel Byoir. No. I am only saying that if I applied to Mr. 
Patnxan the principle that he applied to me, I would say why were 
the checks to Mr. Patman not made out to him but made out to cash? 
Why was an intermediary used? Mr. Patman must be particeps 
criminus in all of these crimes. Oh, no. I have not made that 
charge. I have not said that Mr. Patman ought to be like his clients — 
either a suicide or in the penitentiary. That is not so. But what is 
so? That Mr. Patman, as a Member of the Congress, did accept em- 
plo3"ment from these people and go about the country making speeches 
in behalf of legislation which they had helped to put on the statute 
books. 

Mr. Ma.son. You are trying to draw a conclusion that that case is 
a parallel case to your own. Is that the idea? 

Colonel Byoir. No. I am only trying to show you, and I can 
appreciate the committee's patience, I am only trying to show you 
why Mr. Patman did have malice in making these charges against me, 

Mr. Mason. Then come to the point. Where, in that malice, might 
it be considered on a foundation of facts? 

Colonel Byoir. Mr. Mason, I was employed by the Great Atlantic 
& Pacific Tea Co. to oppose a piece of legislation introduced by the 
Honorable Wright Patman, the Patman chain-store tax bill. 
Previous to that Mr. Patman had sponsored in the House the Robin- 
son-Pa tman bill. Both of these pieces of legislation were supported 
by the United States Wholesale Grocers Association, McKesson & 
Robbins, the National Wholesale Drug Association, and they we're 
parties in interest to those bills, and they were paying Mr. Patman 
what he would characterize as very large sums of money to go and 
talk to them about the legislation for which they were parties in 
interest. 

The Chairman. You are charging him 

Colonel Byoir. I am not criticizing it, Mr. Chairman. If Mr. 
Patman thought it was proper for a Member of Congress to introduce 
a bill to put somebody's competitors out of business and then take 
money to go and make a speech to them, that is all right. That is a 
matter of public record, and, if you like, I will introduce letters from 
the Wholesale Grocers Association explaining the terms on which 
Mr. Patman 

The Chairman (interposing). You mean, while that bi'l was pend- 
ing, he was making the speeches to them and receiving money? 



8218 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir; and I will go further and say that Mr. 
Patman admitted it on the floor of the House, and I will go further 
and say that one organization, the Wholesale Hardware people — 
unfortunately they had been left out, their competitors had been 
left out, they were not going to put the gasoline people in it — but 
Mr. Patman made a speech to them and he promised them that he 
would go and take them out of the bill. 

And after he got back here a Ways and Means Committee brought 
up his bill, and then Mr. Patman walked into that subcoinmittee and 
said, "I propose to amend my bill by taking out the gasoline stations." 

Mr. Patman gave them every opportunity to use the facilities of 
his office. He gave them the free use of the Government frank and 
sent out letters which said, "When a man gets along as Carl Byoir 
did and makes it difficult to keep on taking those fees," and Mr. Pat- 
man, after the suicide of Mr. Musica — Mr. Coster — felt that it was 
no longer profitable, maybe, if he w^as a greedy and felt the need of 
money, he some malice against the man who brought it about. 

Mr. Patman expressed a good deal of admiration here for Mr. 
J. Edgar Hoover and c^uoted some of the things which he had written 
in relation to propaganda. Mr. Patman did not say that Mr. J. 
Edgar Hoover, as head of the Bureau of Investigation, conducted a 
very thorough investigation in which we made all of our books, rec- 
ords, and papers available to the Department of Justice, and all of 
our employees, and that when that was over, they issued a statement 
which said that the investigation disclosed no evidence whatsoever 
that Carl Byoir had engaged in any un-American activities. 

Mr. Mason. That is the report of the Bureau of Investigation? 

Colonel Byoir. That is right. 

Mr. Mason. After the investigation w^as made? 

Colonel Byoir. That is right. And just the other day, when Air. 
Patman was on the floor of the House on this same subject, some sev- 
eral Members queried him about the course of action he proposed to 
take. And he said that he had given his material to the Department 
of Justice, but he concealed from the Members of the House that the 
Department of Justice, after the receipt of his evidence, has had 
made a complete investigation. I think that all of those things showed 
a good deal of Ivnowledge. 

I want to point out, too, that "propaganda" is a very large word. 
If you believe any religion and you try to persuade others, whether 
by word of mouth, writings, or speeches, to recognize that it is a good 
religion, that is propaganda; and if you do not believe in it and you 
try to persuade people that it is not a good religion, that is propaganda. 
If you try to persuade people that Quebec is a lovely place to go to 
to spend a vacation, that is propaganda; and if you represent another 
competitive place for a vacation and try to persuade them that 
Quebec is not a good place to go to, but that your place is the better 
of the two, that is propaganda. 

Mr. Patman is trying to make out that we are engaged in subversive 
propaganda, and I repeat to the committee that here it has all of the 
material and again that this committee came to us, and when they 
came we furnished them v:ith all the material, and that at the end they 
not only said that my conduct was not un-American but affirmatively 
said that it was American, and when Mr. Patman made his first charge 
on the floor of the House, he knew that that was so. 



UN-AMEIIICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8219 

I think I havo touched on the fact that there is something almost 
fiendish in trying to interpret, in the atmosphere and excitement of 
the day, actions taken long since. Air. Mason has pointed out, and I 
know it is accurate, that 6 or 7 years ago all responsible departments 
of this Government were trying to encourage trade and travel with the 
German Government. 

Mr. Pat man thinks that I ought to have been the greatest prophet 
in the liistory of the world. In those days the British Government 
was trying to do ever^^thing they could to assist the German Govern- 
ment in thinking that their country was the greatest country in the 
world, and they did it with the idea that it might avert the war which 
has now come upon us. They were wrong, and everybody was wrong 
except Carl Bj^oir, who should have expected the World War in 1940. 

Mr. Patman says that he does not know whether tliis relationship 
exists today. I only need say here 

Mr. Mason (interposing). ^Miat relation? 

Colonel Byoir. AA'ith the German Government. In other words, he 
goes on to talk about Mr. Vierick and others who are doing certain 
things, all with the implication that Carl Byoir never stopped repre- 
senting the German Government, but all the bureaus have it that that 
contract was canceled in 1934, in November — or 1935; so that others 
might be a little confused by the careless use of tenses, as if something 
done long ago were being done now. 

Mr. Patman has made the statement that I have great influence 
with the American press because I represent over 90 percent of the 
country's national advertisers. I think the true fact is that we 
probably represent about one-twentieth or one-fiftieth of 1 percent of 
the Nation's national advertisers, and probably one-half of 1 percent 
of the leading advertisers of the Nation. You move a period over or 
j^ou add a zero, and of course that zero is nothing, the adding of a 
zero is nothing, 1,400,000,000 becomes 14,000,000,000. 

But I do not think that is especially germane. I want to say that 
everything that Mr. Carl Byoir and his associates have ever done has 
been as much under my personal direction as a personal-service busi- 
ness is. There is no thought on my part to evade any responsibility 
for an3'thing that has ever been made. Everything that was done in 
coimection with the contract of 1933-34 was disclosed fully to both 
the McCormack committee and to your investigators. 

On the day before 3^our investigators came into our office in New 
York, I called a meeting of all of the staff of Carl Byoir & Associates, 
and incidentally on that staff there is not a single alien, everyone 
being an American citizen, and with the single exception of a ghl who 
came here from Ireland at the age of 11, everyone is a native-born 
American citizen. 

At that meeting I said to them that I appreciated that they must be 
under a great strain. I said to them that they had one advantage, 
that we would give these investigators the files, books, and all that, 
and all that anyone in that room had to do in response to any questions 
was not to think what he ought to say or not to try to think would be 
the proper answer, would be to make the best effect, but just to tell 
the truth. And that is the way I feel about the personnel and the 
business of Carl Byoir & Associates. 

Mr. Patman accused me of being the head of the greatest spy system 
in the history of the world. I want to make a flat denial of that 



8220 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

allegation and say that in all my life for no government have I ever 
engaged in any espionage activities. 

Mr. Patman made the accusation that while I was a lieutenant 
colonel working on the plans of the War Department, certain plans 
had disappeared, and he had reason to believe had reached Germany. 
Of course I want to make the flat statement that no secret of the War 
Department or anything connected with my work with the War 
Department has ever been communicated to anyone w^ho was not 
entitled to have that information. 

Mr. Patman made the statement that Byoir had great opportunity 
to infiltrate spies into all these great American businesses. I not only 
want to deny that statement but to state that the investigator of this 
committee communicated with my clients and ever}^ client and every 
past client of Carl Byoir & Associates, and ascertained that there had 
been no such infiltration of spies, but in all cases we had never recom- 
mended the employment of anyone to our clients, as that is not a part 
of our business. 

Mr. Casey. May I address your attention specifically to Mr. 
Patman 's statement that you had distributed propaganda literature? 

Colonel Byoir. That is absolutely untrue. 

Mr. Casey. What was your connection with Hitler Youth? 

Colonel Byoir. No connection wdiatsoever. 

The Chairman. Mr. Byoir, what w\as your purpose in seeking 
information and employment from the Nazi government? 

Colonel Byoir. Wliy, Mr. Chairman, we were in the publicity 
business, and we had especially the reputation of being very able, I 
think, in the tourist-trade-promotion field, particularly in the tourist 
field, and there was at that time nothing in the situation as to the 
German Government that would make it unpatriotic or un-American 
to represent the German Federal Railroads. 

The Chairman. Had you represented any other companies from 
any other countries prior to or at that same time? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir; we had represented the Cuban Tourists 
Association in similar work, and the city of Miami in similar work, 
and we had represented the Province of Quebec. I think they came 
later, but the two previous ones had been very successful, and we had 
quite a reputation in the promotion of tourist trade. 

The Chairman. Did you represent any foreign governments beside 
the German Government? 

Colonel Byoir. The Government of Cuba and the Government of 
Quebec, and later on the Chinese Government. 

The Chairman. You knew at that time that the German Govern- 
ment was engaged in an anti-Communist program? 

Colonel Byoir. At that time, Mr. Dies, that was not so patent. 
In other words, a great many very sincere people in this country and 
everywhere else thought that the new German Government was the 
bloc that would keep communism from spreading over the rest of the 
world. They now recognize that they were in error and they now 
tell you so, and our Government was issuing statements that we ought 
to do everything we could to promote trade with Germany. 

The Chairman. What was it that they wanted you to do specifi- 
cally when they employed you? 

Colonel Byoir. Well, the German Federal Railroads were owned 
by the German Government. They had been owned by the German 
Government, I think, under the Kaiser, they had been owned by the 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8221 

German Government under the Republic, and they were owned by 
the German Government when Hitler came into power. 

German Railroads could not do a passenger business based on 
tourist traffic unless you could get the people to go to Germany, and 
of course the German steamship lines were interested in getting busi- 
ness across the Atlantic in order for the people to ride on the German 
railroads and, Mr. Chairman, it is not a matter of opinion. You 
cannot do publicity in the dark. The people who get the information 
know who sends it to them, and the record is all in the files of the 
committee. What was this awful propaganda? Your investigator, 
Mr. Stedman, has seen it. Mr. Birmingham has seen it. Wliy, it 
was a story that the Oberammergau Passion Play would be as good 
as it was in the past; stories about the scenery about Heidelberg, 
where the great university is located, and places for trading and 
places for beautiful scenery. 

The Chairman. Did you have anything for political propaganda? 

Colonel Bygir. No, sir. The contract provided that we would not, 
and it was carried out in good faith. 

The Chairman. Were you ever called on to send out anything of a 
political character? 

Colonel Bygir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you confine yourselves to matters with regard 
to the railroads? 

Colonel Bygir. To those matters which would interest Americans 
to go and visit Germany. 

The Chairman. What matters were they? 

Colonel Bygir. I could refresh my memory very easil3^ The 
committee has 18 monthly bulletins which set forth all of this material. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you this. I do not want to ask you 
in detail, but generally speaking, you know what was in the bulletins 
or pamphlets? 

Colonel Bygir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What did they deal with? 

Colonel Bygir. They dealt with sports events and the theater and 
art and scenery and natural beauties in Germany. They dealt with 
the modernization of the German railroads and with the effectiveness 
of the German steamship lines for passenger service. They dealt 
with good hotels; they dealt with improvements which were being 
made in trade, scientific improvements with the type of goods that 
were distributed at the Leipzig Fair, editorials from the American 
papers praising the progress that was being made in Germany. 

The Chairman. Is there anything in any of the publicity or 
propaganda which you distributed under contract or under any 
employment with the German Government which related, directly or 
indirectly, to the Nazi government as to what it was doing, or any- 
thing of that sort? 

Colonel Bygir. There has been something about what they were 
doing to the people of Germany in the way of improvement, because 
those were the things that would affect — attract people to go there. 

The Chairman. I mean of a political nature. 

Colonel Bygir. Of a political nature? Absolutely no. There was 
no effort to build up a great picture of Nazi govenunent or anythmg — 
any picture of Nazi government. 

The Chairman. Did you come into contact with the agents of 
Germanv in the United States? 



3222 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Colonel Byoir. The only people I came in contact with, Mr. 
Chairman, were representatives of the German steamship lines, of 
the German Federal Railroads, and the German consul general in 
New York; and it may be unpopular at the moment, but the fact is 
that they behaved themselves like other men that you know or do 
business with. They were interested in what was happening to their 
business and why the poeple should not go and ride on the railroads 
in Germany. 

The Chairman. Was there any discussion with regard to nazi-ism? 

Colonel Byoir. Never. 

The Chairman. Was there any conference, at any of those which 
you had, with reference to political Germany? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was your relationship with them solely on business? 

Colonel Byoir. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. Wliat was your relationship with Mr. Viereck? 

Colonel Byoir. Mr. Vierick brought the business to Carl Byoir & 
Associates, and was paid a commission for getting the business, and 
was later paid a salary for working on the material. In other words, 
it was felt that he was an expert, that he was familiar with all of these 
matters, and could devise material and editing knowledge in going 
over the material. 

The Chairman. At the same time, do you know of any political- 
propaganda activities that Mr. Vierick was engaged in? 

Colonel Byoir. Then, no, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you consult with them with regard to them? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How long was he in your employ? 

Colonel Byoir. I think — my recollection now is that it was a little 
less than a year. 

Mr. Mason. And that was during this time? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Had you ever terminated or indicated any inten- 
tion of terminating this contract prior to the investigation of the 
McCormack committee? 

Colonel Byoir. Mr. Chairman, the contract was practically a new 
contract when the McCormack investigation into these matters 
began. 

The Chairman. Not when it began, but I mean, so far as you are 
concerned? 

Colonel Byoir. At that time, Mr. Chairman, that— there was 
nothing that anyone, any patriotic American, would have considered 
improper in the work that we were doing. Later on, it became evi- 
dent gradually what the German Government was and what their 
intentions were, and what their plans were. Of course, nobody would 
have any pride in having an association with that Government at any 
time, but at that time there was nothing that anyone would consider 
improper in such an association. 

The Chairman. Did you terminate your relations with the Nazi 
government at the time of the McCormack investigation? 

Colonel Byoir. No; it was after that. 

The Chairman. How long afterward, would you say? 

Colonel Byoir. I think probably 4 or 5 months, Mr. Chairman. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8223 

The Chairman. You continued under the contract for a period of 
about 5 months after the hearing with respect to your relationship 
to the German Government? 

Colonel Bygir. That is riglit. 

The Chairman. Have you, since the termination of that contract, 
had any relationship, directly or indirectly, express or implied, with 
the German Government, or with any agency of the German Govern- 
ment, or with any representatives of the German Government, of any 
nature or description? 

Colonel Bygir. Absolutely not, Mr. Chairman, direct or indirect, 
or of any description. 

The Chairman. Have you represented, or have you been connected 
with, the German-American Bund or any organization which believes 
in nazi-ism? 

Colonel Bygir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. In any capacity? 

Colonel By'gir. In no capacity. 

The Chairman. Wliat was your reason for terminating it? Was it 
because of the situation which arose? 

Colonel Bygir. I think it was the realization that the continuing 
unfolding of the plans of the German Government would be something 
that we would not want to be associated with, and, cjuite frankly, 
I think I postponed the cancellation a little further than I think I 
ought to have canceled it, but I think it was reasonably prompt, and 
I think that during all of the time that we did the work there was 
nothing done that any patriotic American citizen would have raised 
any objection to. 

The Chairman. Did you ever learn, or have any reason to think, 
that any representative of the German railroads, or the German 
Tourist Co., or other agencies of the German Government, used them 
for political propaganda purposes or for espionage or sabotage? 

Colonel By'gir. There was not the slightest evidence of anything of 
that sort, and, frankly, I should be surprised if they were. 

The Chairman. Did any information come to you of any nature 
that at any time it would cause you to suspect the true purposes and 
nature of these organizations used by Germany in the United States? 

Colonel Bygir. Mr. Chairman, I believed then and I believe now 
that the purpose for which we were employed was honestly stated by 
them in the contract itself; that as far as this group was concerned, 
and as far as we were concerned, there was nothing intended but the 
improvement of trade and travel between the United States and Ger- 
many. I said to you, and I repeat — it may not be a favorable thing 
to say under the present atmosphere — that these men acted just like 
other men that I had met before, that people in the German Railroad 
office were interested in getting people to travel on their railroads, and 
that is as far as they were interested in, so far as any conversation 
they held with me was concerned. 

The Chair.man. Was another government, or any other govern- 
ment, engaged in the same or similar work as that for \vhich you were 
engaged for the German Government? 

Colonel Bygir. I cannot tell you exactly at that moment, but it has 
been increasingly the policy of resorts, municipal. State, and National, 
to employ both advertising agents aufl pul)licity agents, to promote 
those resorts. There is notliing unusual about that. There was not 
anything unusual about it then. I think you will find that long before 

62626— 41— vol. 14 5 



8224 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

this period many govornments had employed both advertising agents 
and pubhcists to pubhcize and advertise the tom'ist advantages of their 
coimtries — Switzerhmd, Egypt, Ireland, Czechoslovakia, Cuba, and 
Canada — and m this country it has grown up in the last few years so 
that many States are doing it. 

The Chairman. Did you receive any part of your compensation^ 
either directly or indirectly, in the form of cash? 

Colonel Bygir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is your explanation or reason for receivmg 
cash in payment from the German Government? 

Colonel Bygir. The explanation at that time was, and perhaps I 
should have regarded it with some doubt, but I tell you that I did 
not 

The Chairman (interposing) . What was the information they gave 

Colonel Bygir. Yes; that is the information, that the bureau did 
not have funds for that purpose; that the consul general did, and he 
was making them available. As a matter of fact, not being in a 
suspicious atmosphere, but what was in a normal business transaction 
for us, we did not regard the German consul general, who, in the case 
of all governments, is expected to handle commercial matters, as 
being engaged in anything else than in the promotion of commercial 
business. 

The Chairman. You think that the payment in cash is a normal 
busmess transaction, especially in dealings with foreign governments? 

Colonel Bygir. I only say to you that I did not think it was 
abnormal at that time, when the bureau did not have cash available. 

The Chairman. That is the information they gave you? Was a 
receipt given you for the cash paid you? 

Colonel Bygir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Were all the subsequent payments in cash? 

Colonel Bygir. I think the subsequent payments were paid by 
check. I thmk the first month or two they may have been by cash. 

The Chairman. You have followed, have you not, to some extent 
at least, the career of Adolf Hitler? 

Colonel Bygir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You knew, at least to some extent, what his Nazi 
Party stood for, did you? 

Colonel Bygir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you are familiar with the entire anti-Semitic 
nature? 

Colonel Bygir. At that time they denied it and took the position 
that these outbreaks were sporadic and popular and they made re- 
peated declarations, and I think in some cases to other governments, 
and they made an effort to put a stop to it. Of course, we know now 
that the tongue was in the cheek, and I say to you now that I would 
not have hesitated at any point, and it would have been smart business 
for them if any anti-Semitic program was in hopes of building the 
American tourist trade, because it was a barrier which they could not 
overcome. 

Mr. Casey. You mean the German trade, the German tourist 
trade, was something that they should have taken into consideration? 

Colonel Bygir. I think in the beginning it did, but as soon as the 
anti-Semitic feeling became apparent — Mr. McMahon says it did 
not break out until 1935. I do not know whether it was that late. 



UN-AMEIIICAX PHOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8225 

but I Iviiow during that piM'iod the Govei'iinicut was disavowing anti- 
Si'initic actions. 

Tho Chairman. Have you ever read Mein Kampt? 

Colonel BvoiK. Xo, sir; I have not. 

The Chairman. You arc not familiar with the statements, especially 
with reference to propaganda? 

Colonel Byoir. Very recently we are all very acutely aware of it.. 

The Chairman. At that time were you? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Is it or is it not a fact that Mr. Hitler officially 
ordered your discharge because he found out that you liad Jewish 
blood in your veins? 

Colonel Byoir. Of course, it is not a fact. 

The Chairman. It is not true? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. Mr. Hitler nor anyone else ever ordered 
my discharge. 

The Chairman. You have points there to which you wish to reply?" 

Colonel Byoir. One other point was made. It is incidental, but 
it is along the line of many of these charges, that while I had this 
contract propaganda was being shipped in by bales, and some of it 
w^as seized in the port of New York, and it was nothing but trash. 
That may be true, but it had no remote connection; that is. nothing- 
that we had was ever seized anywhere. 

Mr. Casey. Were any of these charges as to receiving this propa- 
ganda litei'ature made directly to you? 

Colonel Byoir. One of our men was there. He collected the ma- 
terial. He wrote most of it himself, and he sent it to us. He did 
not send it in printed form. He simply signed stories that a feature 
wTiter would wTite. He went to Heidelberg, and he wrote a very 
long story about Heidelberg University, and he went to Oberam- 
mergau and WTote a long story about the Oberammergau Passion 
Play, but none of that came over in printed form. It was simply 
sent over to be used or not used as we thought fit. 

Air. Patman, very early in his remarks today, referring to the 
Department of Justice, said that the only thing that they were looking 
for was whether there had been any resignation. Of course, Mr. 
Patman knows that that was untrue, that the Department of Justice 
and the Federal Bureau of Investigation were investigating the whole 
matter, and that the}' must have received from him anything he had 
to give them or any evidence that he had to offer, and that they were 
not solely concerned with the matter of whether a fpreign agent had 
registered, because, if Mr. Patman's charge was tnu\ I was a spy and 
my organization was a nest of spies, which would be illegal, whether 
you were registered or not. 

The Chairman. Hov\' did j'our business with the German Gov^ern- 
ment com])are with your other business in the United States? 

Colonel Byoir. Mr. Patman has along that line referi-ed to these- 
tremendous sums paid in advertising and i)ublicity: $6,000 a month 
is not regarded as a tremendous sum. In publicity accounts T think 
it is not a large account, and there is absolutely nothing unusual in. 
relation to that amount of money. 

Mr. Mason. The ciuiestion the chairman wanted to get at is: What 
portion would you sav that is of vour total business? 



8226 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Colonel Byoir. If you take the nature of it, it was — it would 
probably would have been a fifth or sixth or a seventh of our business. 

The Chairman. During that period? 

Colonel Byoir. During that period; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In other words, your compensation from Germany 
would not exceed 7 percent of the net income or receipts of your total 
revenue from all sources? 

Colonel Byoir. No. I said a sixth or seventh of the total business. 

The Chairman. A sixth or seventh of the total business? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. The average account, Mr. Chairman, 
whether you take it on a fee basis and bill the individual expenses to 
the client, or whether it is a lump sum out of which you pay expenses, 
will run $5,000 or $6,000 or $7,000 a month. 

The Chairman. You stated that you are a lieutenant colonel m the 
Reserve? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Has there been any investigation by the War 
Department of you that you know of? 

Colonel Byoir. I know of none. I assume that they would get 
the report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 

The Chairman. Have you ever talked with the Department or any 
official of the War Department with respect to this matter? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What is your statement with reference to nazi-ism? 
Have you any sympathy for nazi-ism? 

Colonel Byoir. No, sir; nor for communism, and I want to state, 
in conclusion, that anything in any allegation that Mr. Batman has 
made that would reflect upon my belief on the American system or my 
patriotism or my loyalty to this Government is absolutely untrue, and 
there is not a scintilla of evidence to support it, because there cannot be. 

The Chairman. Were you in this country during the war between 
the United States and Germany? 

Colonel Byoir. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Have you anything else to say? 

Mr. Patman. I want to answer what Mr. Byoir said about me 
personally. 

The Chairman. Have you any questions to ask? 

Mr. Patman. If I were permitted, there occurs to me perhaps a 
hundred questions which I might ask Of course, if I were privileged 
to ask ciuestions I know of a lot of them that I would like to ask him. 

Colonel Byoir. He said I was a spy, that it was possible that I had 
stolen the plans out of the War Department, and I would like to ask 
him if the committee has a scintilla of evidence as to those charges. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. WRIGHT PATMAN— Resumed 

Mr. Patman. The statement I made appears of record, that he did 
accept money from the German consul in New York and from the 
Hitler government in Germany, and that his own partner testified 
that it was used to send out propaganda. He has further testified 
that the first book that he got out was Speaking of Hitler. 

In regard to my personal conduct, I do resent the charge that I 
would introduce a bill in Congress and go out and make speeches about 
it. Tiiat necessitates a brief resume of mv service. 



UN-AMKRICAX I'UOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8227 

The inference that 1 had maUce m my heart toward Carl Byoir 
because he apposed a bill of mine is too far-fetched for serious con- 
sideration. Our side could have possibly had his services if we had 
luul the money to have paid him. 1 did not regard his opposition 
any more than I woidd regard the opposition of a lawyer in the trial 
of a lawsuit. He was only one in a large number of people who op- 
posed the bill. In fact, only one more than 120,000 — the number of 
Reserve officers. 

Colonel Byoir's statement that a member of the McCormack com- 
mittee told me before I brought the charges that he, Colonel Byoir, 
had been exonerated by the McCormack committee is not true. 
The fact is, I talked to both Mr. McCormack, the chairman, and Mr. 
Dickstein, the vice chairman, and each one told me that the record 
spoke for itself; that the testimony had been very carefully taken and 
could be relied upon; and that their conclusions were seriously con- 
sidered and carefully drawn and represented their views. It will be 
noticed that Colonel Byoir made no effort to introduce any proof on 
this point other than his owai bare statement which was not true. 

Colonel Byoir has left the impression, in fact stated, that I intro- 
duced bills in Congress, then went out over the country making 
speeches for them and received enormous sums of money therefor. 
The truth is, from the time I was elected to Congress in 1928 untU 
1936 all during the time I was crusading for the payment of the 
adjusted-service certificates for veterans, I received no fees what- 
soever for making addresses. On the other hand, I spent considerable 
money of my own and went very much in debt. 

In 1936, after the passage of the Robinson-Patman Act, and during 
1937, I was represented by a speaker's bureau and made speeches 
under customary terms and conditions. 

In Febriuiry 1938 I introduced the bill to curb the greed of about 
20 large interstate chain-store companies out of 7,000 chain-store com- 
panies in the United States, known as the anti-chain-store bill, and 
irom that date to this, I have not accepted one penny profit directly 
or indirectly from anyone for making addresses on this subject or 
any other subject. 

There was only one short period of time in my 12 years' service 
that I was represented by a speaker's bureau and that was during the 
time that I was not engaged in any crusade in 1936 and 1937. 

If I had been making money out of making addresses, it would 
have been in my interest to have had effective opponents to keep the 
bills from passing so that I could have continued to make mone3^ 
Instead of Colonel Bj^oir showing a motive, his illogical argument 
would show the reverse to be true. 

Ninety percent of the prominent Members of the House, Senate, 
and high public officials today are represented by the same speaker's 
bureau that represented me. Such prominent men as William 
Jennings Bryan, William Howard Taft, and Calvin Coolidge were 
represented by this same speaker's bureau. 

The Chairman. And many cabinet officers? 

Mr. Patman. And many cabinet officers; and that is true, and so 
there was nothnig wrong with me making speeches in 1936 and 1937 
about a law that was already passed. 

The Chairman. Which had already been passed. 

Mr. Patman. Yes; and approved by the President, and every 
speech I made is now available and is ready for any man to read. At 



8228 UN-AMERICAN PROI'AOANDA ACTIVITIES 

the conclusion of each speech I yiekled to questions and I answered 
those questions and every one of them are available. Later on they 
were put into a book under the name of the Robinson-Pa tman Act. 
It was just guesswork, 1 am sure, but the Supreme Court and the 
Federal Trade Commission have never overruled one of those answers 
today that I put in that book. 

So I made those speeches over a period of 2 years when I was not in 
a crusade. 

In his desperation to try to connect me with Coster-Musica is a 
sample of the unfairness of his testimony. I never, at any time, 
advocated price-fixuig legislation. You will notice that he offered no 
proof that I did — only his bare statement, which is untrue. 

Further, his statement that I accepted $4,800 from Coster to make 
speeches is absolutely untrue. I never, at any time, accepted one 
penny from Coster or the firm he represented for any purpose, or 
under any circumstance or condition whatsoever, either directly or 
indirectly. You will notice he submitted no proof — just his bare 
statement, which is untrue. 

Another sample of the weakness of his defense and the unfairness of 
his testimony is his statement that I did not have gasoline stations in 
the anti-chain-store bill until I made a speech to the hardware men. 
He left the inference that I must have received a large fee for making 
this speech and that induced me to change my mind. The truth is, 
I made no speech to the hardware men and the gasoline stations have 
always been in the bill shice it was first introduced. This statement 
by Colonel Byoir was absolutely untrue. He offered no proof — only 
his bare statement, which was imtrue. 

In 1938 I got some very unfavorable publicity and I wondered how 
it came about. The newspapers said, "There is a southern Congress- 
man mvolved in this scandal," and next they would say "He lives in 
Texas," and next they came along and said "It must be Wright 
Patman, because he made some speeches one time and this concern 
locally sponsored some of those speeches, so it must be him." 

So it went on and I came up to Washington and I laiew I had not been 
-connected in any way w^th what was wrong in making those speeches 
and I went to see Mr. Brien McMahon, Assistant Attorney General 
in charge of criminal prosecutions, now representmg Colonel Byoir, 
also had charge of the F. B. I. I guess he has friends there now. I 
do not imply any improper motives. But I went to see him and I said 
"Why is it that they give this information as possibly coming from 
the Department of Justice?" I said to him "I know that your 
Department is the one that has been handling it, and I know there is 
nothing which can involve me in any way in the world," and he told 
mie about it. One man, representing a newspaper, would come in and 
say to him, "Do you know that Patman has a $4,000 automobile that 
McKesson gave him?" "No; I had not heard it," he would say. 
Then another woidd come in and ask him the same question. And 
•when he would say "Yes, but" and attempt to explain it was hearsay, 
the newsman would say "that is all I want to know," and would print 
it. In the same way much damaging news was obtained and printed. 
I really thought he was trying to do the right thing about it, but the 
newspapers had unfairly put me in an unfavorable position, and they 
published it in that way. 

I wrote to Frank Murphy, the Attorney General of the United 
States, and said "I know I have never done anything wrong in the 



UN-AMEKirvX TROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8229 

matter of receiving aiitomo})ilos or making speeches, but the charges 
have been madv by the Cliicago Tribune that I was carried on the 
McKesson pay roll and that I received $18,000, and that 1 also got a 
$4,000 autoniobik\ and I wish, Mr. Murphy, you would write me 
what the facts are, what the records show, regardless of what the 
facts are." 

I now wish to read just what Mr. Murphy wrote me: 

Hon. Wright Patman, 

House of Representatives, 

Washington, D. C. 

My Dear Mr. Congressman: Upon my return to the city after an extended 
trip, I received your letter of May 24, 1939, advising of the charges made against 
you by political enemies concerning j-our alleged affiliations with the McKesson 
& Robbins Co. 

The Federal Bureau of Investigation of this Department is conducting an 
investigation into the affairs of the McKesson & Robbins Co. at the present time. 
Although this investigation is not yet complete, I can assure you that absolutely 
no information has been developed indicating that you were ever carried on the 
McKesson & Robbins pay roll; that you received the sum of $18,000 or any other 
sum, or a $4,000 automobile or any other kind of automobile. 
I trust that this information will be of some assistance to you. 
Sincerely yours, 

Frank Murphy, 

Attorney General. 

And then I asked the Honorable Robert Jackson — Mr. Murphy 
said the investigation was not completed — and when I found out it had 
been completed, I wrote Mr. Jackson, Attorney General of the United 
States who succeeded Mr. Murphy, and said to him, "I want you to 
give me the information. Is there anything in connection with the 
McKesson & Robbins that I did that was wrong?" and told him the 
accusations. 

So he replied that: 

July 23, 1940. 
Hon. Wright Patman, 

Room 1133, Neiv House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 

My Dear Mr. Congressman: In reply to your inquiry, I take pleasure in 
informing you that the investigation made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation 
as to the affairs of McKesson & Robbins disclosed no evidence whatever to 
substantiate accusations that you had been in the employ or on the pay roll of that 
corporation, nor was any evidence found which would indicate that you had any 
connection whatever with the activities of that corporation, which were the subject 
of the investigation. 

Sincerely yours, Robert H. Jackson, Attorney General. 

Mr. Mason. That in itself gives you a clean bill of health so far as 
the Bureau of Investigation is concerned and their investigation, 
doesn't it? 

Mr. Patman. I think so. 

Mr. Mason. There is no question about it? 

Mr. Patman. I do not think so. 

Mr. Mason. Then the report of the Bureau on this man Byoir 
ought to be just as acceptable? 

Mr. Patman. They had gone into this matter concerning me with 
a fine-tooth comb. 

Mr. Mason. And they had gone into the other with a fine-tooth 
comb? 

Mr. Patman. You just looked over the papers and then without 
giving me a hearing at all, exonerated him. 

Another thing I did not like, Mr. Byoir said — there were two things. 
It was not very long after the unfavorable publicity until Mr. Mc- 
Mahon became the lawyer of Mr, Byoir, and not only that, but some 



8230 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

other important people went out of the Department of Justice over 
to this law firm. That is very good, and they might be able to per- 
suade those still in the Department to do what they considered was 
the right thing to do. 

Mr. Mason. And they might be willing to have them do the wrong, 
thing. 

Mr. Patman. First of all, you can search these records from begin- 
ning to end, and you can never find that I made a speech on the floor 
of the House or anywhere else with respect to advocating price fixing. 

Number two, the Patman-Robinson law is generally observed. 
Both sides are observing it now. And so far as the general appeal is 
concerned, Mr. Byoir happened to be one of a million that is opposed 
to the law, and of course he is assuming that he is the one that has 
the burden of our opposition, but I do not agree with that that he is 
the onh^ one. 

Furthermore, if the contract was so good with Germany and there 
was nothing wrong about it, why was it terminated at all? Why 
didn't he keep on? $6,000 a month or $108,000 for 18 months, but 
I am willing to rest on the record. If this committee believes that it 
is wrong for a lieutenant colonel in the United States Army to accept 
money from the German consul in New York, at that time all kinds 
of bad things were happening in Germany against certain people over 
there, which I greatly deplore and regret, and which everyone does; 
but they were going on. He accepted the money from the German 
consul in New York and from the German Government itself during 
a period of months, and propaganda and other information against the 
interest of this Government was sent out — if you believe that is all 
right, of course that is your opinion. 

But the fact is not denied. It is not disputed that wliile he was 
lieutenant colonel in the United States Army he did accept money 
from the German Government, and upon that a finding was later on 
made that he had been guilty of German activities. 

Mr. Casey. You do not believe that the termination in 1935 of 
the contract has anything to do with the German Government? 

Mr. Patman. I do not know. I do not think the German Govern- 
ment would permit him to since that time, but I tliink I have reason 
to believe 

Mr. Casey. Prior to 1935? 

Mr. Patman. Except that you have a letter in youi' file that he 
represented the German Government in 1938. 

Mr. Casey. You do not believe that? 

Mr. Patman. I do not know. There was not an investigator sent 
to Miami? 

Mr. Casey. Yes. 

Mr. Patman. I am not making any point on it. In other words, 
if a man were guilty of treason 50 years ago, I would not want him 
in our Army today, and if the man was guilty as a lieutenant colonel 
of doing something in time of peace which would be treason in time 
of war, I would not be willing to trust him at all. 

The Chairman. Anytliing else? 

Mr. Patman. Nothing else, Mr. Chairman. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. The committee stands adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 3:15 p. m., the committee adjourned, to meet at the 
call of the chairman.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEKICAN PROPOGANDA ACTIV- 
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



OCTOBER 1, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to Investigate, 

Un-American Activities, 

Newark, N. J. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Joe Starnes (acting chair- 
man), presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Starnes (acting chairman), Thomas, and Voorhis. 

Also present: Dr. J. B. Matthews, Director of Research, Robert E. 
Stripling, chief investigator and Robert B. Barker, investigator. 

Mr^ Starnes. The chairman of the subcommittee, composed of 
Mr. Voorhis, Mr. Thomas, and the chairman, wishes to announce at 
this time for the benefit of the press and others that the subcommittee 
appointed by the chairman of the committee to conduct the hearing 
in this area has been in executive session since 10 o'clock this morning. 

We shall continue in executive session until 1 o'clock this afternoon. 
At that time we plan to hold public hearings. 

There is no further announcement to make at this time. 

(Thereupon the committee went into executive session.) 

after executive session 

Mr. Starnes. The committee will come to order. 

The committee is holding this public hearing upon the instructions 
of the chairman of the full committee to investigate alleged un-Ameri- 
can and subversive activities in this area. 

I think all of us appreciate these are imusual times if not perilous 
times. It is time for sound and sane thinking. It is no time for 
hysteria; no time for the arousing of emotions and passions. 

We hope to conduct these hearings in a calm, dispassionate manner. 
The committee is seeking facts and facts only concerning un-American 
and subversive activities. 

It may be necessary in the course of these hearings for the com- 
mittee to go into executive session again because the committee is 
going to make every possible effort to safeguard the character and the 
reputation of all American citizens and all other people whose names 
may be involved in the conduct of this investigation. 

It may be necessary for the time being to withhold the publication 
of certain exhibits, petitions and names for the purpose of protecting 
the character and the welfare of the parties interested. If this is 
necessary the chairman will not hesitate to close the open hearings 
and go into executive session at any stage of the proceedings. 

8231 



8232 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

That is for the benefit of the public and the gentlemen of the press 
so you will understand our proceedings. 
Mr. Barker, who will be your first witness? 
Mr. Barker. Mr. Appleby. 

TESTIMONY OF WALTER M. APPLEBY, SECRETARY, SUN SHIP-^ 
YARD EMPLOYEES ASSOCIATION 

(The witness was duly sworn by Mr. Starnes.) 

Mr. Starnes. Be seated and give us your full name, 

Mr. Appleby, Walter M. Appleby. 

Mr. Starnes. And give us your address. 

Mr. Appleby. Media, Pa. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you state your profession or avocation? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; marine chemist. 

Mr. Starnes. How long have you been engaged in that vocation? 

Mr. Appleby. About 3 years. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat is your educational background? 

Mr. Appleby. High school, 2 years of college, and home courses — 
home study. 

Mr. Starnes. How long have been engaged in that business or 
profession? 

Mr. Appleby. In this particular profession? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; and prior to that. 

Mr. Appleby. I have been connected with the shipbuilding 
industry for 6 years. Prior to that I was a transport pilot, since 1921. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, Dr. Matthews, will you take over the 
witness? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Appleby, where are you employed at the pres- 
ent time? 

Mr. Appleby. Sun Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co., Chester, Pa. 

Mr. Matthews. How long have you been employed at the Sun 
Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co.? 

Mr. Appleby. Six years. 

Mr. Matthews. In what capacity are you employed there? 

Mr. Appleby. Marine chemist. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any special relationship to the em- 
ployees of that plant? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; I am secretary of the Sun Shipbuilding 
Employees Association. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the union which has bargaining rights 
for the employees of the Sun Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co.? 

Mr. Appleby. That is an independent union. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the union which has bargaining rights 
with the company? 

Mr. Appleby. It is an independent union which has had the bar- 
gaining rights for all of the employees for the last 4 years. 

Mr. Matthews. How many members are there in that union? 

Mr. Appleby. Five thousand tliree hundred paid up out of approx- 
imately six thousand. 

Mr. Matthews. In your position as an official of this union, have 
you had occasion to learn of the activities of Communists or of Nazis, 
or of Communist-minded or Nazi-minded employees in the plant? 

Mr. Appleby. I have. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 823S 

Mr. Matthews. Will yoii please describe biiefly liow yon have 
come into possession of such information? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes. I don't know just where to start. Suppose I 
<:(^ back about 2 years when it came to my knowledg-e that there were 
conuuunistic activities not only in the shipyard itself but in the ini- 
metliate vicinity of the shipyard. 

The locality of the shipyard is such that there are mnnerous dwell- 
ings within one or two squares of it. 

1 found out through vaiious members and information that came 
to me 

Mr. Matthews. Through various members of what? 

Mr. Appleby. Of the Sun Shipbuilding Employees Association, the 
independent union, that there were numerous boarding houses within 
a few squares of the shipyard and that those boarding houses were run 
by Communists ; that they took in shipyard workers particularly, both 
for room and board and that one house in particular was the home of 
a Mrs. Soifer — I believe the first name is Anna. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you spell that name? 

Mr. Appleby. S-o-i-f-e-r. Although it had no particidar bearing 
on our organization I decided that it was my business to look into 
it and a few of the bo5''s who were willing to give their time, spend 
their money to go out nights and investigate matters. 

"\Mien we got into the affair we foimd out that Mrs. Scifer not only 
ran a boarding house but she was the head of the Communist Party 
of Delaware County; however, she is not the front. A man by the 
name of John Weaver was the front for Mrs. Soifer. He lived in her 
home; kept his Communist propaganda in the home, and that pi'opa- 
ganda was given or sold to shipyard workers and to pupils of John 
Weaver, who was a W. P. A. teacher. 

K they had the money they bought it ; if they di(hi"t have the money 
it was given to them. 

Further investigation disclosed that Mrs. Soifer had two sons work- 
ing in the shipyard. As we got into it it became more interesting and 
more involved. 

1 might sa}" at the time 1 did not know whether this connnittee was 
functioning or not but it seemed as though there was no one we could 
turn to to take this over and investigate it, so we continued in our 
own way. 

In the course of events 1 found that one of the boys, who at one 
time had been a friend of mine many years ago, was in the shipyard, 
and although he happened to be a member of an opposing union, a 
C. L O. union, he got into these Communist activities himself through, 
the union. 

He found out in that organization was Mrs. Soifer's son and many 
other names of which we have here and which we will place in the 
record as evidence. 

I convinced him that for the good of the coinitry and everyone in 
general it would be a good idea if he entered the Communist Party of 
Delaware County, dig in, become a worker and we would gather this 
data and present it to the proper authorities when we saw fit. 

Mr. Matthews. You said a moment ago he got into Communist 
activities through his union work. You mean that he came in tou(b 
Avith Conmiunist activities and iciirned about them? 



8234 UX-AMERICAX I'R0PAr4ANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Appleby. Through the Industrial Union of Marine Shipbuild- 
ing Workers of America, Local No. 2, C. I. O. affiliated in Chester, Pa. 

Mr. Matthews. You advised him to get into the circle of com- 
munism? 

Mr. Appleby. It was my thought that if he became friendly with 
Mrs. Soifer, whom we found out was the head but not the fiont, that 
we could learn more of their activities and find out just how many 
Communists there were working in the shipyard. 

Mr. Matthews. Tes. 

Mr. Appleby. We ^\ ere fairly successful in that endeavor. 

Mr. Matthews. What year was that? 

Mr. Appleby. I would say that was — wel), I really got into this in 
about 1938, the early part of 1938. Prior to that I had heard certain 
rumors and different things told, but mv interest was really not in it 
until 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Appleby. So with the thought in mind that the best way to 
attack this situation was to have one good and trusted man in their 
organization for that purpose. The man I speak of, who was an old 
friend and I found out he was working in the shipyard and had 
worked there before I worked there but had been at sea during which 
time he made contact with the N. M. U. and the various sailors 
aboard ship. He knew their language and he decided that he would 
do that for me without remuneration. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his name? 

Mr. Appleby. Joseph Nilon. He is present here now and will be a 
witness. 

Mr. Matthews. You say that he had been active in the N. M. U. — 
the National Maritime Union? 

Mr. Appleby. He was aboard ships that the N. M. U. at that time 
were trying to organize. He, however, was not a member of the 
N. M. U. 

Mr. Matthews. Don't you mean or do you mean the predecessor 
union to the National Maritime Union? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; I mean the organization that they called 
the 

Mr. Matthews. Marine Workers Industrial Union? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; Marine Workers Industrial Committee, or 
something like that. 

Mr. Matthews. Marine Workers Industrial Union? 

Mr. Appleby. Tes, sir; that was, incidentally, the successor of the 
I. S. U., which was sabotaged by Curran on the Pacific Coast — the 
Communists on the Pacific coast. After they sabotaged the I. S. U. 
it became this N. M. U. eventually. That is the organization I am 
speaking of. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what did Mr. Nilon get in the way of infor- 
mation after you advised him to get closer to the activities of the 
Communist Party for the purpose of securing information? 

Mr. Appleby. He found by attending the pi-ivate meetings in Mrs. 
Soifer's home that the majority of the men who attended those 
meetings were workers in the shipyard. Those meetings were gen- 
erally held at night during the week. There weie more or less open 
meetings, however, held every Sunday morning about 10 o'clock in 
the office of the Liberal Press run by Milne. He is the editor and 
publisher of that paper. 



V.N-AMEHICAX PKOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8235 

Mr. Matthews. What is Milne's first name? 

Mr. Appleby. I have it riglit here. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it Stanley? 

Mr. Appleby. Stanley Milne, that is right. Throu^i^h those 
contacts naturally lie found that there were a lot of hoys that attended 
those meetings that were members, or rather workers in the shipyard. 

He also became on very close terms with John Weaver, who was the 
W. P. A. teacher and the front for the party. 

John Weaver allegedly wrote their propaganda and handed it out 
on the streets hi the vichiit}' of the shipyard along with other followers 
of their organization. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever personally seen Weaver distribute 
Communist literature on the streets? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; many times. And I have presented to Mr. 
Barker, your in\estigator, about three pieces of that material, signed 
b}' the Communist Party of Delaware County with the post-office box 
in Chester, which was distributed by John ^Veaver and others of the 
party. 

\It. Starnes. Let the witness identify those if you have them. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a mimeographed sheet entitled: "Atten- 
tion! Sun Ship Workers." At the bottom of that sheet appears: 
"Communist Party, Delaware County, Pennsylvania, Box 712, 
Chester, Penn.sylvania.'' Can you identify this as one of the pieces 
of literature which you turned over to Mr. Barker? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; this was handed to me by one ol their work- 
ers on the street, the street right in front of the shipyard. It is the 
only entrance to the shipyard. 

Mr. Matthews. And you in turn gave this to Mr. Barker? 

Mr. x\ppleby. I placed that in my file and wdien Mr. Barker was 
interested I gave it to liim a few months ago. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you another mimeographed sheet with the 
caption: "Attention! Sun Ship Workers," and signed by the Com- 
munist Party of Delaware County, Box 712, Chester, Pa. Can you 
identify that as one of the papers distributed by the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; as a matter of fact this date 1 have up there, 
4-14-39, is my handwriting. That is the day it was given out, on the 
morning of 4-14-39. 

Mr. Matthews. This was given out in the vicinity of the Sun 
Shipyard, was it? 

Mr. Appleby. Within a half square of the gate. 

Mr. Matthews. By wiiom? 

Mr. Appleby. By John Weaver. He was also present but the ones 
who handed them out were usually different parties — whomever he 
could get at tlie time, but he himself was always there. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask the fiist one of these mimeo- 
graphed sheets be marked "Exliibit 1" to Mr. Api)ieby's testimony. 

Mr. Starnes. It will be so nuirked and made a i)art of the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Appleby Exhibit Xo. 1.") 

Mr. Matthews. And ] ask that the second mimeographed paper 
identified by Mr. Appleby be marked as Exliibit No. 2. 

Mr. Starxes. It may be so marked. 

(The docinnent referred to was marked "Appleby Hxhibit No. 2.") 



8236 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIP^S 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a third mimeographed sheet with the 
caption: "This isn't our war, remember 1917." At the bottom of the 
page appears the words: "Read tlie Daily Worker," and "Communist 
Party of DeLaware County, Chester, Post Office Box 741." Can you 
identify that as one of these pieces of Communist Hterature distributed 
in the vicinity of the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; that was handed out within the hist 6 months 
or 8 months. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that your handwriting at the top of the page? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. "Distributed at the Sun Shipyard in May 1940." 

Mr. Chairman, I ask that be marked "Exhibit 8" and received in 
^evidence. 

Mr. Starnes. It may be received. 

(The document referred to was marked "Appleby Exhibit No. 3.") 

Mr. M.atthews. You testified that Mr. Weaver is the person who 
participated in the distribution of this literature? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; he distributes all this literature, he makes 
soap-box speeches in the vicinity of the yard and runs the Sunday 
meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he still employed on W. P. A.? 

Mr. Appleby. I understand that he was dropped a few months ago 
under pressure, although he had been on for something like 4 or 5 years 
prior to that. 

Mr. Matthews. And he was one of the persons, according to your 
information, who frequented the home of Mrs. Soifer? 

Mr. Appleby. He was a boarder in Mrs. Soifer's home. 

Mr. Matthews. He boarded at Mrs. Soifer's home? 

Mr. Appleby. He does now and did then. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he attend the meetings which you described 
as Communist nu'ctings held in the evenings in Mrs. Soifer's home? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything else about the commu- 
nistic activities of Mr. Weaver that you have not stated? 

Mr. Appleby. Weaver himself boasts that he pulled the first strike 
in the history of the country as far as the W. P. A. was concerned, 
which was back in the early days of the W. P. A. At that time he was 
a timekeeper. This was Weaver's own story. I am quoting not 
what he said to me but what he said to Nilon. 

Later he was arrested at the Philco strike, which was some years 
ago — I guess 4 years ago. It was quite a big strike and although he 
was not an employee of the Philco plant, he was arrested for his violent 
activities with the strikers. 

The next time he showed up in the papers was the Ford strike in 
Chester. He was still working for the W. P. A. and not an employee 
of the Ford Co. He was arrested again and his picture appears in the 
paper. 

I should go back a little bit. During the strike of December 11, 
1936, at the Sun Shipl)uilding & Dry Dock Co., that day is known as 
"bloody Friday," because two men went to the hospital. During 
that violence John Weaver served at the soup kitchen for the strikers 
although he was not an employee of the Sun Shipbuilding Co. nor was 
he a member of the C. I. O., and with the soup they served they served 
the kind of propaganda you have in your hand. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIF^S 8237 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you moiitioncd Mrs. Soifer and Mr. Weaver 
as niombeis of the Coiiiniuuist Party wlio were working in the vicinity 
of the Sun Shipyard. Did you learn the identity of any other Com- 
munist Party h^ichn's who were domg simihir work in the vicinity of 
the shipyanl? 

Mr. Appleby. Not leaders in the vicinity of the shipyard; no. 
Some of the Soifer family are leaders in the party and with the excep- 
tion of Mrs. Soifer's nej)hew 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Dr. Herman Gold? 

Mr. Appleby. I don't know the man personally but I laiow of him. 
Dr. Herman Gold is an open Communist — I mean an admitted Com- 
munist. The last advices I had on him he was in charge of the Rus- 
sian or Communist Insurance Co. which operates in America. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Mrs. Sonya Gillman? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; I don't know the lady personally but the 
Gillmans are related to the Soifers. They are blood relatives. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Mrs. Gillman was a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party or not? 

Mr. Appleby'. I could not say that she was a dues-paying member 
of the Communist Party; I don't know, but her activities were 
communistic. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean to say she participated m the activities 
along with John Weaver and Mrs. Soifer? 

Mr. Appleby. Gillman was in the Soifer home on several occasions 
when the usual closed meetings were being held. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a brother of Mrs. Sonya Gillman 
by the name of Israel Gillman? 

Mr. Appleby". Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he active in these Communist Party affairs 
in Chester? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Matthews. Do you know whether or not he had any connec- 
tion with the W. P. A. Theater Project? 

Mr. Appleby'. Yes, sir; he was a part of the W. P. A. Theater 
Project and took a leading part. 

Mr. Matthews. You have mentioned the children of Mrs. Soifer. 
What were their names? 

Mr. Appleby'. I don't remember them all. There is an Abe and a 
few others. As a matter of fact I haven't gone over that data. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a Harry Soifer? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he active in the Communist Party affairs? 

Mr. Appleby. Every one. 

Mr. Matthews. In Chester? 

Mr. Appleby. Every one of the Soifer boys were active in Com- 
munist affairs in Chester. 

Mr. MxVTTHEWs. Including Abe also? 

Mr. Appleby. Including the son that happens to be in Mexico at 
the present time. 

Mr. Matthews. The address of the Soifers was 416 East Fourth 
Street, Chester, Pa. ; is that right? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And that is where the meetings were held that 
Mr. Nilon attended? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. 



8238 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Steve Lewicki? 

Mr. Appleby. Steve Lewicki; yes, sir. He works in the shipyard. 
He is a welder. He has been there 4 or 5 years. He is still there at 
the present time. He is one of the trustees of the C I. O. Local No. 
2 in Chester. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you learn that he also attended the meetings, 
of the Communists m the home of Mrs. Soifer? 

Mr. Appleby. Lie was a regular attendant at the Sunday meetings 
and the Milne office and he has been a close friend of the Soifer boys 
for years and has been in and out of their house like one of the children. 

Mr. Matthews. And it is your information that he is still employed 
at the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. He is, sir. I do know that definitely. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you seen the Communist Party's nominating 
petitions circulated in the State of Pennsylvania and particularly in 
Delaware County for the placing of Communist candidates on the' 
ballot in Pennsylvania? 

Mr. Appleby. I had made available to me the petitions relating to 
those in the Chester district for a district job. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you make a check of the names that appeared 
on the Communist Party's nominating petitions against employees 
in the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you find that persons employed in the Sun 
Shipyard appeared on the Communists Party's nominating petitions?' 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How many such persons did you find employed at 
the Sun Shipyard whose names appeared on the Communist Party's 
nominating petitions? 

Mr. Appleby. I have a list here of 37. It is rather rough but I will 
be glad to put it in the record if you care to have it — 37 from the list 
of those on the petitions who were employed at that date in the yards, 
some of whom now have left the service. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, what is your pleasure? 

Mr. Thomas. I think we should have the date of that. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the date that you made the check? 

Mr. Appleby. I made the check within a few days after I received 
the copy of the petition. I don't have the petition here and I can't 
very well give you the date. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it this year? 

Mr. Appleby. Oh, yes; it was within the last 3 months. I would 
say it was just about 3 months ago and no longer. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, what is your pleasure with refer- 
ence to this particular list of names? 

Mr. Starnes. I suggest those names be marked as an exhibit and 
made a part of the record. 

Mr. Thomas. As I understand this contains 37 names of persons 
employed in the Sun Shipyard whose names appeared on the Com- 
munist Party petitions? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; and that particular petition was John 
Weaver's own petition. He was running for a job as county engineer 
or some such job, which appeared on the petition. The majority of 
the names were gotten by himself and the balance were gotten by some 
lady^ — I have forgotten her name. 



UN-AMKRICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8239 

Mr. VooRHis. Was his name indicated as a Communist Party 
candidate? 

Mr. Appleby. He was a candidate on the Communist Party ticket 
for county engineer or some such job. 

Mr. Matthews. Did his name also appear at the bottom of the 
petition as the circuhitor of the petition? 

Mr. Appleby. His name appeared at the section where the name is 
signed to the effect he obtained the signatures and the lady who con- 
tinued on with the petition, her name appeared after that. 

Mr. AIatthews. These names are found on 2 sheets of typewriter 
paper, 37 in number, and I offer them in evidence. 

Air. Starnes. They may be received. 

(The document referred to was marked "Appleby Exhibit No. 4.") 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Appleby, I show you again one of these 
mimeographed sheets which has been introduced as an exhibit, which 
starts out with this question: 

Why did Aggie Campbell spread Nazi propaganda in the shipyard and why 
did he stop all of a sudden ? 

Do you know Aggie Campbell, mentioned in this sheet? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; I know him very well. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Aggie Campbell at one time engage in the 
dissemination of Nazi propaganda in the shipyard, according to your 
information ? • 

Mr. Appleby. He did. 

Mr. Matthews. Is his first name Agnew? 

]Mr. Appleby. His full name is Louis Agnew Campbell. 

Mr. Matthews. L-o-u-i-s? 

Mr. Appleby. I believe it is spelled that way. 

Mr. Matthews. A-g-n-e-w? 

Mr. Appleby. Right. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know that he has disseminated Nazi 
propaganda at the shipyard? 

Air. Appleby. I saw him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether he was associated at that 
time with any organization? 

Mr. Appleby. He was a member of the Anti-Communist Society 
that held their meetings in the vicinity of Walnut Street in Philadel- 
phia. 

Air. AIatthews. Was that known as the Anti-Communist 

Air. Appleby. Anti-Commimist Society of America I believe was 
its full name. 

Air. Matthews. Do you know anything about the propaganda of 
that organization? 

Air. Appleby. To a certain extent. 

Air. AIatthews. The nature of it? 

Air. Appleby. To a certain degree; yes. I attended about three 
meetings believing it was an anti-Communist society and the first 
speakers that we heard sounded as though they were out for the pur- 
pose which we thought they were. 

However, they worked in other speakers and they became very 
much pro-Nazi in their discussions and as you left the hall they had 
on tables piled up, stacks of anti-Semitic propaganda — the usual stuff" 
with the pictures of the Jews and movie actresses all done more or 

62626— 41— vol. 14 6 



8240 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

less to make them look bizarre; and it was such data as that that 
Campbell brought into the yard and disseminated. 

After that that material was sent directly to him by express from 
I believe, Washington, and was received by him in the shipyard. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you satisfy yourself by your attendance at 
these meetings of the Anti-Communist Society in Philadelphia that 
the organization was a pro-Nazi organization? 

Mr. Appleby. Definitely. 

Mr. Matthews. All the earmarks of the propaganda seemed to 
indicate it was that? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And you have no doubt that Louis Agnew Camp- 
bell was at the time you speak of, engaged in the dissemination of 
Nazi propaganda on behalf of this organization? 

Mr. Appleby. He became a very active member for them. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you know about Mr. Campbell's affilia- 
tions or associations at the present time? 

Mr, Appleby. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Before you answer that question which I just 
asked you, Mr. Appleby, I show you a mimeographed sheet of paper 
entitled: "Attention Workers, Philadelphia Police Exposes Anti- 
Communist League as Blind for the Nazi Bund." 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And this is signed by tlie Communist Party of 
Delaware County? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever seen that sheet? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; and this is my writing. It was distributed as 
given here at 7:45 a. m., March 30, 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. March 30, 1939? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; at times I marked those just as a matter 
of record. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, at that time the Communist 
Party definitely charged that the Anti-Communist League was a 
blind for the Nazi Bund? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. The German-American Bund? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And the allegation here is that the Philadelphia 
police had exposed the Anti-Communist League as such an organi- 
zation. That is the purport of this document, is it not? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. I don't know the extent of their 
exposition but they did intervene in several cases, I believe, where 
there was some disturbance — a little violence or something that 
occurred. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask that be marked "Exhibit 5," 
and made a part of the I'ecord. 

Mr. Starnes. It may be marked "Exhibit 5" and received in 
evidence. 

(The document referred to was marked "Appleby Exhibit No. 5.") 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Appleby, returning to the question I 
asked you: Do you know anything about Mr. Campbell's present 
affiliations or activities? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; about December 1939 Campbell and those 
who were supporting him in his, should we say Nazi activities and the 



UN-AMKUTCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §241 

distributiiiii ol" litorature throuijhoiit tlio yard and out on tlio stroot — 
pro-Nazi {)ropagan(la, joined hands with the Coniinunist Party in the 
Dehaware County district. 

Air. Matthews. You mean that tlie niembers of the Anti-Com- 
munist Leaiiue joined with the C^ommunists in some kind of a joint 
program? 

Mr. Appleby. I mean that John Weaver, Steve Lewicki, the Soifer 
boys and the others joined hands with Campbell and his group in 
about De( embei' of 1939 and as a residt of that union of the two fac- 
tions and ('oml)iiuitions, they reopened local No. 2, which had died a 
natui'al (hnitli, and that group is now running local No. 2 of the 
1. U. M. S. W. A., a C. I. O. affiliate. 

Mr. VooRHis. Just one question. What do you mean when you 
say Weaver and these other people joined Campbell's group? Wliat 
do you mean exactly by that? 

Mr. Appleby. I mean that they sit in at the same meetings, are of 
one thought. The only propaganda that is on the streets now in this 
locality is the Liberal Press and that sheet carries the activities of the 
group which were out for one purpose. 

Mr. VooRHis. What do you mean by ''Campbell's group"? What 
was "Campbell's group" exactly that they joined? 

Mr. Appleby. Campbell naturally had a following in the yard and 
T have here a list of that following. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean that they joined the group in the yard of 
which Campbell was the leader, is that it? 

Mr. Appleby. Would you repeat that, please? 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean they joined a group of people in the ship- 
yard of which Campbell was the leader, is that what you mean? 

Mr. Appleby. Tiiat is true. I mean that those who had previously 
been the enemies became friends. 

Mr. Matthews. As I understand the record, Mr. Voorhis, Camp- 
bell had a following working with him when he was disseminating 
Nazi propaganda, a following employed in the shipyard. 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And on the other hand. Weaver and Soifer had a 
Communist following, employed in the shipyard and that on or about 
December 1939 these two groups, the Nazi group under the leadership 
of Campbell and the Communist group under the leadership of 
Weaver, joined forces? 

Mr. Appleby. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And are at present working in concert rather than 
in opposition to each other. Is that the correct testimony, Mr. 
Appleby? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. 

Mr. Voorhis. What I was trying to get at, is Campbell still the 
leader of the group as a whole? 

Mr. Appleby. You bring up the point so I think it is relevant. 
There was an election last Saturday in that group. Campbell was 
elected secretary of that organization, Steve Lewicki, who had been 
the nearest or the closest friend to the Communist John Weaver, is 
a trustee. He was elected trustee of that organization. That 
happened last Saturday afternoon. 

Xlr. Thomas. In other words the Connnunists and the Nazis are 
represented among the officers of the organization? 



8242 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, have you, Mr. Appleby, in your investiga- 
tion of communism in your district, in your observation of the Com- 
munists and Nazis, noted that at least on the question of their 
attitude toward the foreign relations of this country are in substantial 
agreement at the present time? 

Mr. Appleby. They are in agreement. 

Mr. Matthews. You have observed from their literature and their 
speeches that that is the fact? 

Mr. Appleby. The Liberal Press published by Stanley Milne is not 
an organ for any particular organization. It is simply a liberal 
paper, so-called — very liberal. 

Air. Matthews. "So-called"? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; and Milne had always condemned the 
Campbell faction and had always given, you might say, the Com- 
munist faction the break until this change took place in December, 
roughly December 1939. The I. U. M. S. W. A. have their own 
organ, the official organ called the Shipyard Worker. 

It carried its own articles. Tiie two papers are now distributed 
one inserted in the other and are handed out by this group that has 
merged which we have been talking about — the two papers, the Ship- 
yard Worker, the official organ for the I. U. M. S. W. A. and the 
Liberal Press published by Stanley jVIilne of Chester. 

Mr. Matthews. You menn whoever distributes them distributes 
them together? 

Mr. Appleby. They are put together and distributed together. In 
addition to that, notices such as sheets like this, notice or notices of 
meetings are also inserted. In other words, you receive three pieces 
of literature — the Shipyard Worker and the Liberal Press and often 
notices on paper this size [indicating], inserted in with the papers and 
they are given out as a unit by the combined groups. 

The distributors change, naturally, from week to week, depending 
on whoever is available to hand them out. 

Mr. Matthews. You have referred to a list which I hold in my 
hand, as a list of the followers of Mr. Campbell — persons who were 
employed in the Sun Shipyard. This is entitled: "List No. 2." It 
appears to contain about 21 names. 

Mr. Chairman, would you like to receive this list in evidence? 

Mr. Starnes. What is the significance of that list? I want to 
know that first. 

Mr. Appleby. No particular significance except that this group 
as a whole presented the pro-Nazi group. This group now as a 
whole, with perhaps a few exceptions, has joined hands with the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Thomas. Are the names of those people on that list? 

Mr. Starnes. But the group listed there was originally a pro-Nazi 
group? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Are they employees of the Sun Shipbuilding Co., 
many of them? 

Mr. Appleby. May I glance at that a moment. I believe they are. 
I would just like to check it first. Yes, sir; as a matter of fact, their 
occupations are given on the side — abbreviated. There is the word 
"weld" which means they are all welders, which is the key department 
in the Sun Shipbuilding Co, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8243 

Mr. Starnes. There is no objection to that being received in 
evidence and it will be made a part of the record. 

(The list referred to was marked "Appleby Exhibit No. 6.") 

Air. Matthews. For the record, Mr. Appleby, can you outline 
bri(>flv the txpo of manufactiu-ing that takes place in the Sun Ship- 
yard? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; at the present time 60 percent of our con- 
struction is for the United States Maritime Commission. 

I overlooked one point. I stated earlier today that we had done 
some Nav3' work but very little of it. That w^as on a ship within the 
last montii that we had built and the Navy Department bought 
from the Maritime Commission. We finished certain additional 
construction for the Navy Department before they took it from the 
yard. However, I overlooked one larger job. I believe that naval 
work has special significance at this time. 

We built and delivered the first twin-screw high-speed tanker, a 
practically all-welded ship called the Cimmeron, to the Navy Depart- 
ment. That was delivered about a year ago and that is on the 
Pacific coast now. It is the pride of the fleet. It is the first high- 
speed tanker built in this country. 

And when I speak of "high speed," I mean a tanker with 6,000,000 
gallons of fuel that can do maybe 21 or 22 knots. So we have been 
engaged in naval work for sometime although the majority of our 
Avork at this time is for the Maritime Commission. 

The balance is made up of tankers for private owners. We also 
do repair work. We do Navy repair work in dredges and Army 
engineer's vessels — on their dredges and also private work. 

Mr. Matthews. Have cases of sabotage come to your attention, 
sabotage in the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; the first case of sabotage that came to my 
personal attention was about, I would say, 4 months ago. It was the 
case of a large reel of 2-inch diameter 8-conductor conduit — that is 
armored cable. It has a woven basket weave of metal on the outside. 
It Avas on board the deck of one of the ships under construction. 

The cable was being unreeled for the purpose of wiring the ship. 
They use this cable and draw it through, hundreds and hundreds of 
feet of the cable is drawn through the ship. After it is in place it is 
so covered up and protected that it is difficult to get to it. 

In other words, if there is a short circuit or anything else happened 
to it. it would be verj" difficult to locate the trouble. This was a new 
reel that they were unreeling. After they had about 12 or 15 feet 
unraveled one of the workmen caught his finger on a sharp object and 
thev examined it closelv and it turned out to be a nail driven straight 
through the cable with the head flush with the basket weave which 
made it difficult to see, but it just happened that it was just about a 
sixteenth of an inch too long and it caught his finger. 

Mr. Matthews. Would that cause a short circuit? 

Mr. Appleby. Within that conduit are eight conductors and in 
driving a nail through it it would be impossible to go through without 
hitting three or four which would short circuit those wires. 

Mr. Matthews. Would that create a hazard of fire? 

Mr. Appleby. It would definitely create a hazard, either a fire or 
burn up the vital pieces of machinery that would be connected to that 
cable, inasmuch as most of the ships today, their auxiliaries, are elec- 
tricallv driven and not steam. 



8244 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Or at least necessitate a great deal of work in 
finding the short circuit? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. That would be the least that could be expected 
as a result of driving a nail through that cable? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there any doubt about that being a piece of 
sabotage? I mean to say, could that have been an accident? 

Mr. Appleby. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Just a question there. Did the company itself con- 
sider it a piece of sabotage? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not this occurrence was 
reported to the F. B. I.? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; it happened in this way: One of our men— 
and when I saA" "one of our men" I mean one of our members, who 
reported to me — he did not laiow what else to do. I immediately 
reported to an official of the company and they turned it over to the 
F. B. I. Wliat they have done, I don't know. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask how long ago that was? 

Mr. Appleby. About 4 months ago, sir. 

Now, the next act of sabotage 

Mr. Matthews. I want to ask you one more question. Is that 
cable a very expensive material? 

Mr. Appleby. It runs about $8 a foot. 

Mr. Matthews. It is, in other words, relatively expensive material? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; it is very fine cable. 

Mr. Matthews. And would the necessity of taking it out to find 
a short circuit damage the cable? 

Mr. Appleby. Oh, yes; yes, indeed. 

Mr. Matthews. All right, will you please give any other instances, 
if any such have come to your attention, of sabotage in the Sun 
Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. About 2 months ago one of the Atlantic Eefining 
Co. tankers, one of the large new, all-welded jobs — in fact the largest 
in the United States — was in our yard for repairs. There were no 
particular repairs on the engine. vShe was in for the customary paint 
job which they get about every 6 months. After being in a few days 
when they started the engine to leave the yard they could not get 
oil pressure and the engine heated up. And it had to be stopped. 

Investigation disclosed after 2 days of pulling the oil lines apart 
that there were numerous pieces, I would say, 8 10. or 12 pieces of 
sweater all cut about the same size but rough, in the lubricating oil 
system. The lubricating oil system on a ship that size carries a 
tank, reserve tank of several himdred drums of lubricating oil. This 
was an enclosed system and the only way you could possibly enter 
any foreign matter into the system would be by removing a steel 
plate about this large, with eight bolts holding it down. That 
material was deposited in that tank between the time the ship came 
into our yard until it was ready to leave. 

Mr. Matthews. When you say "pieces of sweater" is that a 
technical term? 

Mr. Appleby. I mean a piece of clothing. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean an ordinary sweater, a piece of clothing? 



UN-AMEHICAN I'KOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8245 

Mr. Appleby. Yos, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And they were cut in squares and deposited, this 
forei<2:n material, in these drums? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right, in the tank and into the oil which 
went through all the oil lines to the engine and naturally stopped all 
circulation of the lubricating oil to the moving parts of the engine. 

Mr. AIatthews. You testify that it is impossible for the material 
to have come in through any of the pipelines? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; because it is a closed system. It is not 
like the case of a Diesel engine where you have a large crankcase. 
This is a turbine job where there is no opening whatsoever. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Was this case which you concluded to be a case 
of sabotage, also presented to the proper authorities and if so to whom? 

Mr. Appleby. The authorities were well familiar with the case 
because as soon as the pressure was not present, natm'ally our engi- 
neering department was called in. AVe built the ship and naturally 
we are familiar with the system and where to look for trouble. 

The company is quite familiar with the case. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not it was turned over 
to the Federal authorities for investigation? 

Mr. Appleby. I presume so but I could not say. 

Mr. ^Iattheavs. You do say positively that this act of sabotage 
occurred after tliis tanker had come into the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; she could not possibly have run into the 
yard in that condition. She had just come from her regular trip, 
which is usually Texas, with a load of crude oil for tlie refinery. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, has any other case of sabotage come to 
your attention? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; 2 weeks ago or within a period of 2 weeks I 
would say, of five working days, we had 63 hoses cut. The hoses that 
I speak of are about a half uich outside diameter and they run thou- 
sands and thousands of feet of this hose all over the plant, all through 
the new ships, repair work, drydocks and so forth. 

These hoses cany oxygen, protane, and acetylene gas, a combina- 
tion of which, of course, is ver}' explosive and very inflammable. 
Those hoses were cut at quite an angle — I would say maybe a 20° 
angle, with what appeared to be a safety razor blade or some kind of a 
very sharp instrument. It cut into the last segment or fiber, not com- 
pletely severed in two but just at the breaking point. The manner 
in which it was cut with a sharp instrument at a sharp angle relative 
to the piece of hose itself, made it almost impossible to see it unless you 
picked the hose up and bent it at which time the piece would fly up. 
As I sa}" 63 of those were found m 1 week. That was just 2 weeks ago. 

Mr. Matthews. Sixty-three gashes? 

Mr. Appleby. Sixty-three gashes. Naturally when they found a 
few they put inspectors on and they went over everv foot of hose, 
bending it to fmd the cut places and cut those sections out. 

Mr. Matthews. Were these gashes found throughout the plant? 

Mr. Appleby. Throughout the plant, from one end of the shipway 
to the other. We have a man here present today who was one of 
the inspectors who was sent out to look for and found some of these 
pieces of hose that were slashed. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it your information that this could not have 
come about accidently? 



8246 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Appleby. Absolutely impossible. There is no instrument 
around the shipways; there is no necessity of an instrument sharp 
enough to make such a cut and I am sure you could not duplicate it 
without a razor blade because it is tough hose, very tough vulcanized 
hose with a fabric running through it. It was a particularly bad 
case of sabotage to this extent, although nothing happened because 
it was found, fortunately, before it did happen, but such a hose cut 
so close to the inside core that carries the gas could fill up a ship, a 
compartment or any of the tanks in these ships, or the holes and a 
spark would blow the ship to pieces. 

We have had cases of explosion with acetylene mixed with oxygen 
or profane. It is higlily explosive. It is an exceptionally bad piece 
of sabotage, and it would be disastrous to a ship where a tank was 
full of that gas and exploded. We are familiar with such explosions. 
We have had such a thing happen but not to that extent nor because 
of sabotage. 

It is particularly dangerous to life — the fire hazard — when oxygen, 
for instance, without the acetylene comes out of a hose and gets into 
your clothing. If a spark strikes your clothing your clothing imme- 
diately goes up in flame, although oxygen itself is not inflammable, 
but in combination with some material that is inflammable it goes off 
like a mixture of profane or anything else. It is a very bad form of 
sabotage. 

Mr. Matthews. You say that was discovered in the past few days? 

Mr. Appleby. About 2 weeks ago, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any other instances of sabotage? 

Mr. Appleby. There have been three fires in the last month on 
ships under construction. There was one fire in the tanks. We don't 
know whether it was sabotage or not but we cannot account for the 
fire because the nearest thing to anything that will burn are 3-inch 
planks and these fires have started and we don't laiow just how. 

Air. Thomas. Wliat precautions is the management of your com- 
pany taking to counteract the sabotage and to eliminate the Nazi and 
Communist influence? 

Mr. Appleby. As to eliminating the Nazi and Communist influence, 
I could not say, except to this degree, that within the last 2 months 
every one of the 7,000 employees in the yard — and that includes the 
office workers — the 7,000 have been fingerprinted and copies of the 
fingerprints have been sent to the F. B. I. for their file in Washington. 
In addition to that their guard force has been increased by perhaps 
25 percent, and I am informed also, although I don't know 

Mr. Thomas. Yet sabotage goes on just the same? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; I am informed by I can't state definitely that 
there are F. B. I. and Naval Intelligence men in the yard. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not, Mr. Appleby, any 
of these employees whose names appeared on the Communist Party 
nominating petitions have left the employ of the Sun Shipyard just 
prior to the fingerprinting of all the employees? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; there were perhaps a half a dozen who left prior 
to the fingerprinting. However, I woukl not assume too much there 
because this has become a day when men are shifting more than they 
used to shift. They are giving up jobs to go to other places because 
there are jobs open. It could be a coincidence. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; but you know some have left? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8247 

Mr. Matthews. And do you know from information which cir- 
ciihitos among- empk)yces that some of those persons whoso names 
appear on the Communist Party nominating petitions, have already 
obtained employment in other plants? 

Air. Applehy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In other plants that manufacture products vital 
to national defense? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do j^ou know whether or not the present line of 
the Communist Party 

Mr. Thomas. Before you ask that question I think you ought to 
ask another question in regard to where these employes have gone. 

Mr. Starnes. That would be purely hearsay unless he knows of 
his own knowledge. 

Mr. Appleby. I do know of my own knowledge, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You do know? 

Mr. Appleby. I shall only quote the ones that I do know. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. Appleby. I am not here with the names of those but I can tell 
you this definitely, to my knowledge, two of them are at the Westing- 
house plant which is about 5 miles up the river from us, where they are 
manufacturing turbines for the United States Navy. There are prob- 
ably a half dozen in the last few months who left prior to the finger- 
printing, but we would not say the fingerprinting had anything to 
do with it. 

Mr. Thomas. Was it after the fingerprinting was announced? 

Mr. Appleby. I don't think it was announced. It was probably 
in the talking stage but not announced. 

Mr. Matthews. Let us get that clear. 

Mr. Appleby. Some went to Pusey & Jones in Wilmington where 
they are building United States maritime boats. There were two that 
I know of that went to the New York Ship & Dry Dock at Camden, 
N. J., where they are building nothing but Navy boats, battleships, 
cruisers, and so forth. And the others are just here and there. I 
could not say where. I know there are a few in the New York district. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know that any went to the Philadelphia 
Navy Yard? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir; one or two went to the Philadelphia Navy 
Yard. 

Air. AIatthews. Air. Appleby, you said there were 37 employees 
of the Sun Shipyard whose names appeared on these Communist 
Party nominating petitions. Do you know how many of the 37 are 
still employed at the Sun Shipyard? 

Air. Appleby. Without a check I could not say definitely but I 
doubt if there are more than 25 left or 20. 

Air. AIatthews. Between 20 and 25? 

Air. Appleby. On the original list that I have turned in here. 

Air. AIatthews. But there are still a score or so? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes; there are at least 20 or 25. 

Air. AIatthews. Employed? 

Mr. Appleby. That is right. 

Air. AIatthews. And you haven't made an absolute check as of 
today? 

Air. Appleby. That is right; I had no particular reason to do so. 

Air. Starnes. Can you obtain that check for us? 



8248 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Appleby. I could, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. If you will do that and insert it in the record with 
your testimony we will be glad to have it. 

(The following letter was submitted by Mr. Appleby relative to 
the above:) 

February 22, 1941. 
Dies Committee, 

House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 

Gentlemen: Relative to the information you desire concerning tlie writer's 
testimony at Newark, Oct. 1, 1940. 

Records available indicate that there are eighteen (18) employees now at Sun 
Ship Co., Cliester, who were signers of the Communist petition in behalf of 
John Weaver, Communist, Delaware County, Pa. 
Trusting this is the information you desire, I am 
Yours very truly, 

[Signed] Walter M. AppLEBr, 

Plymouth Hall, Media, Pa. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Appleby, I want to ask you this 
final question as far as I am concerned: Are you sufficiently familiar 
with the present line of the Communist Party to know whether or not 
it is agitating in an extraordinary degree against all measures of 
national defense? 

Mr. Appleby. I am afraid I will have to give that some thought. 
I couldn't say definitely on that. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not the German- 
American Bund and Nazi-minded organizations are agitating against 
measures for national defense? 

Mr. Appleby. Not to my personal knowledge. I mean in a 
practical way. I know of no such activities. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Appleby, did you know a Mr. Adolf Locker, 
who worked at the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Adolf Locker was 
pro-Nazi in his utterances and sympathies? 

Mr. Appleby. In conversations with him he was not pro-Nazi, 
only to this extent: He was sympathetic for Germany because, due to 
the fact that he had fought in the German Army in the first World 
War and at the present time he has four brothers fighting in Germany 
in this war whom he had not heard from for about 6 months and about 
whom he was quite concerned, naturally. He was sympathetic 
toward the cause — he made no un-American activities, however, to me. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he was an alien or is 
an alien? 

Mr. Appleby. Otto told me that he was a citizen of this country 
that he was naturalized. I could not prove that but he told me that. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he work in the Sun Shipyard? 

Mr. Appleby. He did not work directly for the yard ; he worked for 
the Slater System that has the concession in the yard and runs the 
restaurant for the entire yard within the yard itself. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he have general supervision of the foods, 
in other words, in the yard? 

Mr. Appleby. He had general supervision of all the foods eaten 
throughout the yard and at the time of the trial trips where the com- 
pany supplies their own crew and food and so forth, Otto went along 
on those trips and was in complete charge of the food. 

Mr. Matthews. I am afraid I made a mistake in the name; 
is it Otto Locker? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8249 

Mr. Afplebv. Otto and not Adolf — no, no; I am wron^:. Otto is 
another Gorman in the kitoiien. 

Mr. Matthews. This is Adolf and when you said "Otto" you mean 
Adolf, is that right. 

Mr. Appleby. Adolf, that is right. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Now, you were speaking what he did when the 
ships went on trial runs. Did you conclude that? 

Air. Appleby. I think suspicions were first aroused on the trial 
runs when they found that Adolf was down in the engine room where 
he had no business to be. His business was up, on the particular type 
of ship that he would usually go on, which was more or less freighters 
or tankers — the galley is right there on the sheltered deck and there is 
no reason why lie would be in the engine room unless he was just look- 
ing around. He had no business there. He was seen in the engine 
room quite frequently and there suspicions were aroused. Further 
than that I can say that he was discharged last week and although it 
isn't exactly reliable information, and I got it from a fairly good source, 
they found that he was an official of some German bund in the vicinity 
of Chester. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not that was the German- 
American Bund in the vicinity of Chester? 

Mr. Appleby. I don't know that. Information could probably 
come from the company. 

Mr. AIatthews. Thank you. 

Mr. Starnes. Can you furnish us sections of this cable that you 
said was cut with some sharp instrument? 

Mr. Appleby. If they haven't done something with it by this time 
I could. They did keep it for a long time for examination, I guess for 
various agencies. 

Mr. Starnes. If it is available. 

Mr. Appleby. If it is available, I could either get the section or 
perhaps a photograph of it. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, if you will do that for us. 

Mr. Appleby'. I can also get you sections of the hose which I spoke 
of which apparently was cut with a sharp instrument. 

Mr. Starxes. We will be glad to have those and when the}' are 
received we will then use the inspector who was inspecting the job 
and can identify it. Any questions by members of the committee? 

Mr. VooRHis. I want to ask one or two questions. 

Mr. Appleby, you said, I believe, at the beginning of your testimony 
that your union was the recognized bargaining agent for the workers 
in that plant; is that correct? 

Mr. Appleby". Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. How long has it been so? 

Mr. Appleby. We established the right to bargain for all the hourly 
workers in the Sun Shipyard on March 17, 1937, through a National 
Labor Relations Board elections between ourselves and the I. U. M. 
S. W. A. 

We have maintained that position since. 

Mr. VooRHife. One other question that is in an entirely different 
direction. Do you happen to know whether this so-called Anti- 
Communist Society that you have mentioned as being in Philadelphia, 
do 3^ou know whether that organization was a local organization in 
that region or whether it has other branches in other parts of the 



8250 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

country? I mean the organization that Mr. Campbell was connected 
with? 

Mr. Appleby. The organization itself appeared to be local people 
but those who were in back of it seemed to travel around an awful 
lot and brought others hi from other sections. There was always a 
new speaker from some other section. 

It was difficult to know who was running the organization. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Appleby, as I understand it these ships are being 
made for the Maritime Commission? 

Mr. Appleby. Some of our ships. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, the ships that are being made for the Maritime 
Commission aren't they being made in such a way that they could be 
converted into Nav}^ auxiliary vessels? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. The fore peak deck and usually somewhere 
aft about the stern, they are reinforced for gun mounts but the gun 
mounts are not in place. 

Mr. Thomas. One more question: What steps have the manage- 
ment taken to determine what employees are citizens or rather, which 
employees are citizens and which employees are aliens? 

Mr. Appleby. Well, the employees that have come in there and 
registered or you might say registered — yes, registered with the 
employment agent in years gone by as citizens — just how they work 
that I don't know unless they speak in a foreign tongue or something. 
I don't laiow whether they check them or not but all new employees 
coming m and for at least the last year must produce a birth certificate. 
Without a birth certificate they cannot be employed. 

Mr. Thomas. Of the 6,000 employees, what is your estimate of the 
number of aliens? 

Mr. Appleby. I would say there are only perhaps 15 in the yard 
who are not citizens or taking out papers or there is one reason or 
another for them not taking out citizenship papers. 

We have a couple from foreign countries who are okayed by the 
State Department and there are a few of foreign birth where it is 
impossible for them to get their birth certificates due to the fact there 
is no country where they come from and their records are not available. 

If they are old employees the company is going to go along with 
them until some means is found to establish their citizenship. 

Mr. Thomas. So practically every employee is either a citizen or an 
alien who has taken out his first papers or is about to take them out? 

Mr. Appleby. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean in addition to all those groups there are 
about 15 who are aliens? 

Mr. Appleby. Fifteen who are aliens and have not taken out papers 
for one reason or another, which is satisfactory to the company. 

Mr. Thomas. So any sabotage that is taking place is being done 
probably by persons who have already become citizens of this country? 

Mr. Appleby. Undoubtedly. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. You may stand aside, Mr. Appleby. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Starnes. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Barker. Joseph Stewart. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8251 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH W. STEWART, WELDING INSPECTOR, SUN 
SHIPBUILDING & DRYDOCK CO. 

(The witness was duly sworn by Mr. Starnes.) 

Mr. Starnes. What is your name, please? 

Mr. Stewart. Joseph W. Stewart. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your address? 

Mr. Stewart. 423 South Fifty-fifth Street, Pliiladelphia, Pa. 

Mr. Starnes. What is yoiu" occupation? 

Mr. Stewart. I am a welding instructor. 

Mr. Starnes. Welding inspector? 

Mr. Stewart. Welding instructor and inspector. 

Mr. Starnes. By whom are you employed? 

Mr, Stewart. Sun Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co., Chester, Pa, 

IMr. Starnes. All right, Air. Barker. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Stewart, as part of your inspection duties did 
you examine this cable which had been cut that you heard Mr. 
Appleby testify about? 

Mr. Stewart. I did. I can testify that I will corroborate every 
statement Mr. Appleby made. In fact two sections of the hose I 
found myself, going into the double bottoms, and the cable itself I 
seen that the nail was driven in there. 1 inspected that myself. 

Mr. Starnes. By "the double bottom" you mean the inner layer? 

Mr. Stewart. That is right; the double bottom of the sliip. 

Mr. Barker. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. You may stand aside. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Starnes. Who is your next witness? 

Mr. Barker. Gerhard Wilhelm Kunze. 

TESTIMONY OF GERHARD WILHELM KUNZE, NATIONAL LEADER 
OF THE GERMAN-AMERICAN BUND 

(Mr. Kunze was attended by his attorney, Wilbur V. Keegan.) 

(The witness was duly sworn by Mr. Starnes.) 

Mr. Starnes. This gentleman who is sitting on your right is your 
counsel? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you give us your name for the record [addressing 
comisel]? 

Mr. Keegan. I will be glad to do that, Congressman. My name 
is Wilbur V. Keegan, general counsel for the German-American Bund, 
address, 178 East Eighty-fifth Street, New York City. 

Mr. Starnes. [Addressing the witness.] Have a seat and give us 
your full name, please. 

Mr. Kunze. Gerhard Wilhelm Kunze. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your address? 

Mr. Kunze. New York City, 178 East Eighty-fifth Street, room 5. 

Mr. Starnes. Where were you born, Mr. Kunze? 

Mr. Kunze. In Camden, N. J. 

Mr. Starnes. When? 

Mr. Kunze. January 10, 1906. 

Mr. Starnes. You are a citizen, therefore, of the United ^States? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your occupation or profession? 



8252 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. I am the national leader of the German-American 
Bund. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any other profession or any other 
means of support — any other occupation other than being the national 
leader of the bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That is your sole means of support? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. How long have you been the national leader of the 
German- American Bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. Since December 5, 1939, as acting national leader, and 
since September 1 of this year as national leader without the term 
"acting" before it. 

Mr. Starnes. You were, in other words, the acting leader from 
December 5, 1939, to September 1940? 

Mr. KuNZE. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And since September 1940 you were elected and have 
been the national leader? 

Mr. KuNZE. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. I overlooked asking you a moment ago in the pre- 
liminary questions to give us your educational training and back- 
ground. We usually ask for that and will you give us that information 
now? 

Mr. KuNZE. Public school, high school, and various night schools 
in electrical and mechanical training. 

Mr. Starnes. That was in New Jersey? 

Mr. KuNZE. In Philadelphia, Pa. 

Mr. Starnes. You have lived then in Pennsylvania or New 
Jersey practically all your life? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you join the German- American Bund? 

Mr. Kunze. Upon its creation in 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. At Buffalo, N. Y.? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Were vou among those who organized the bund 
there in 1936? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you a member of the Friends of New Germany 
prior to that time? 

Mr. Kunze. I was; yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Prior to the time you became a member of the Friends 
of New Germany were you a member of the forerunner to it, the 
Teutonic Society? 

Mr. Kunze. I was not a member of any forerunner of the Friends 
of New Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. That was the first organization you joined? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Wlien did you join that organization? 

Mr. Kunze. In September 1933. 

Mr. Starnes. What was your occupation at that time? 

Mr. Kunze. Chauffeur-mechanic. 

Mr. Starnes. What had been your occupation until you became 
the acting national leader of the bund in December 1939? 

Mr. Kunze. Public luitional relations director. 

Mr. Starnes. Give us your business background. 






UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8253 

Mr. KuNZE. ClnuidVur-nKM'haiiir nnd eloclrician. 

Mr. St.\rnes. By what companios wore you employed? 

Mr. KuNZE. Caroni Dredging Contractors at Trinidad, British 
West Indies, in 1922 and 1923; at the Trinidad Leaseholds, an oil 
field, in 1923 and 1924. At the Philadelphia Electric Co. in 1924 
and 1925. At the Quaker Auto Supply Co. 1925 and 1920, Phila- 
delphia. The Southern Pacific Railroad in El Paso, Tex., in 1927. 
Pickwick Stages in El Paso, Tex., in 1927. The Southland Stages 
in San Diego, Calif., in 1928, or 1927 and the begiiniing of 1928. 
The Textile Electric Machinery Co. of Philadelphia from 1928, in 
February, I believe, until the end of 1930. 

Mr. Starnes. From 1930 where were you employed? 

Mr. Ki NZE. Thomas M. Royal Manufacturers at Bryn Mawr, Pa., 
in 1931, and as chaufl'eur-mechanic for several families from 1932 
until 1936, I beheve. 

Mr. Starnes. And from 1936? 

Mr. KrxzE. Thereafter in the employ of the German-American 
Bund, first in Philadelphia, until August 1937, and employed volun- 
tarily in New York from November 1937 to April 1939 and on salary 
in New York from April 1939 to this time. 

Mr. Starnes. Can you give us the names of some of your employers 
between 1932 and 1936? You gave the names of all your employers 
up to that time. 

Mr. KuNZE. Employers? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; some of vour employers. 

Mr. KuNZE. E. L. Rothchild— at that time 2121 North Park Avenue 
in Philadelpliia; a Mr. and Mrs. Paris at Elkins Park, Pa., and the 
2 years from 1934 to 1936 for Mrs. E. L.— no; Mrs. Robert E. Daffron, 
Jr., Newton Square. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. Now, why did you join the German- 
American Bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. Because I am a German-American and wanted to 
find an organization or help build one wliich would pay more militant 
attention to protecting the good name, the rights and privileges of the 
German-Americans than I had been able to find before, 

Mr. Starnes. All right, any other reason? 

Mr. Kunze. That was the only reason. 

Mr. Starnes. The only reason? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You were smcere in your belief or opinion that 
American citizens of German descent were not receiving proper treat- 
ment or accorded fair representation in all the liberties and the rights 
that other American citizens were enjoying? 

Mr. Kunze. That is my belief. 

Mr. Starnes. That is your belief? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Upon what was that belief based, Mr. Kunze? 

Mr. Kunze. The war hysteria of the last war and the inability, 
apparently, of the German element to properly fight back against 
mifairness which developed because of that hysteria. 

I went through the public schools during the last war and had very 
many experiences which I shall never forget just because of the simple 
fact that I refused to consider everytliing that was German in my 
make-up or in others, to be bad and condemnable. I received enough 
beatings to remind me of that for the rest of my life. 



8254 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. You appreciate the fact, of course, that many of the 
outstanding citizens of this country — citizens in business, finance, 
industry, the various professions and in the agricultural field; the 
agricultural field and all the other lines of endeavor in American life, in 
all of these fields American citizens of German descent have risen to 
preeminence, isn't that true? 

Mr. KuNZE. That was generally true up to the last war. After the 
fact that they had not at the same time learned to protect themselves 
by organizing to assure their political and economic representation, 
made itself felt and since that war the German-Americans, so far as 
our experiences show, are more or less of a goat whenever a goat is 
required. 

Mr. Thomas. I did not hear that last statement. 

Mr. KuNZE. The Germans, I say, are more or less of a goat when- 
ever a goat is recjuired. 

Mr. Starnes. You can understand, of course, that that statement 
has grave implications and presents an indictment of a nature against 
the American people and the American public. Can you be more 
specific in that statement as to what those instances are? I will state 
the question this way: Give us examples of people or specific groups 
of people that you feel have infringed upon the political rights and eco- 
nomic rights of American citizens of German descent. 

Mr. KuNZE. Our experience has been that such organizations as 
the Non-Sectarian League and Anti-Nazi League have ver}^ assidu- 
ously throughout these last years preached that all those who, for 
instance, are at all interested in maintaining any German cultural 
traditions or are interested in building up more efficient economic and 
political organizations of the German element are to be considered 
as essentially alien and inclined to treason, and consequently not to 
be trusted in important factories and undertakings. 

Mr. Starnes. I asked for specific instances. Your statement is 
very generic. Won't you give us specific instances? You have only 
named one organization — what was that, the Anti-Nazi League? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. Now, that is the only one that you have 
mentioned and it evidently is a very small organization because in 
the whole broad expanse of this country there is not a single member 
of that league that I know of. 

Mr. KuNZE. And the daily press. 

Mr. Starnes. You mean the daily press generally? 

Mr. KuNZE. Quite generally. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. KuNZE. And some such organization as the Joint Boycott 
Council which afl^ects not only foreign countries and their interests 
but the business interests of perfectly loyal German-American — - 
German and American export and import firms. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, is there a specific reason for your attitude? 
Do you think that is sufficient reason, because this Anti-Nazi Non- 
Sectarian League has been engaged in activities which you find ob- 
jectionable to American citizens of German descent? Do you think 
that is sufficient reason for the organization of the German-American 
Bund in order to protect the political and economic rights of American 
citizens of German descent? 

Mr. KuNZE. It attempted to get legislation passed that was di- 
rected particularly against the members, for instance, of the German- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8255 

Anun-ican Bund, as such, altiiough that oroanization has iievpr been 

shown to bo in any way trcasonabk^ or unpatriotic. In othci- words • 

Mr. Starnes. You either misunderstood my question or you are 
evadinp; my question. I asked you if you felt that it was necessary 
to set up an organization hke the German-American Bund simply to 
ofi'set the activities of this Anti-Nazi Non-Sectarian League that you 
mentioned a moment ago, and that is the only organization you 
mentioned. 

Mr. KuNZE. I mentioned the daily press. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, the daily press. Now, what steps do you 
think are necessary to protect the people of German descent in this 
country against the Anti-Nazi Non-Sectarian League? 

Mr. KuNZE. To unify them sufficiently so that they can economi- 
cally and politically exercise at least that much influence in the 
Nation that they will receive exactly the same treatment that any 
other part of the citizenship gets. 

Mr. Starnes. That is specific. Wliat would your organization 
propose to remedy the situation as to the press, which you stated had 
been unfair? You made your statement applicable to the press in 
general. What is yoiu- method of approach or angle of approach 
toward remedying that situation? 

Mr. KuNZE. I know that if the German element throughout the 
Nation becomes more circumspect in how it votes and how it supports 
its own kind and those who are friendly to it, then in time the powers 
that control the public policy of the press and the radio will also become 
more just to this particular element which is being attacked so much 
today. 

Mr. Starnes. But aren't you advocating there a method which 
you are condemning others for the use of? 

Mr. KuNZE. We are only counteracting that which is already being 
used against us from many sides. 

Mr. Starnes. How do you propose to treat with the press specifi- 
cally? Do you propose that the press shall be controlled or that the 
press shall become an agent or a tool of your organization to dissemi- 
nate its viewpoint alone in order to bring about the restitution you 
say is necessary for the people of German descent in this country? 

Mr. KuNZE. I propose nothing of the kind. Any element of this 
Nation's citizenry which takes proper care of its political and economic 
representation will be respected by the daily press. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you use the same methods that have been 
placed in vogue elsewhere in other countries in order to control the 
press of this country? 

Mr. KuNZE. There is no need for that. 

Mr. Starnes. I know that, but is that one of the methods that you 
would advocate? 

Mr. KuNZE. I would not advocate such a method. 

Mr. Starnes. You would not advocate such a method? 

Mr. KuNZE. No. 

Mr^ Starnes. During the past year — I believe it was in August — 
Mr. Kuhn told us that this country had some 68 — or there were in this 
•country some 68 posts of the bund with approximately 20,000 dues- 
paying members. That is a matter of public record. 

How does that number compare today in the number of posts and 
in the number of dues-paying members? 

How many posts do you have? 

62626— 41— vol. 14 7 



8256 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. I am soriy, I really do not know. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have an approximation of the number? 
You had 68 last year in August — August 1939. Can't you give us 
some approximation? You are the leader of the organization and 
have been for almost a year? 

Mr. KuNZE. It is impossible to give any definite figure on that 
score. 

Mr. Starnes. I am asking for an approximation — an approxima- 
tion that would be approximately correct. 

Mr. Kunze. There will be approximately 40, I presume. 

Mr. Starnes. Forty local units? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you give us now an approximation, and I 
understand of course it would have to be an approximation, of the 
membership at the present time — dues paying members. 

Mr. Kunze. I couldn't give any approximation which would be 
worth anything under the circumstances, because 

Mr. Starnes. Well, you have shown there are approximately 40 
posts at the present time as compared to 68 last year. Would it 
follow that there has been a possible proportionate reduction in the 
number of dues-paying members? 

Air. Kunze. The reorganization in many respects, which has been 
going on and is going on all this later time, has caused the income from 
dues and contributions to fluctuate to such a degree I could not give 
you any fair idea whatever. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Kunze, what is the purpose of the reorganiza- 
tion which has been going on since you have been there? 

Mr. Kunze. Well, I suppose, Mr. Chairman, that whenever any 
change in leadership is made in any organization there will be changes 
in many details, depending upon the nature of the new leader. 

There is no need for any basic changes and none are contemplated. 

Mr. Thomas. Yet you say reorganization is going on. W^ell, now, 
that is not just a minor change. You must have some reason for it 
or purpose. 

Mr. Kunze. No ; except help improve whatever needs improving so 
that the organization may operate more efficiently. 

Mr. Thomas. How do you mean "more efficiently"? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 

Mr. Thomas. I would just like to know the reason for bringing 
about this reorganization and what the reorganization amounts to. 

Mr. Kunze. There was a reorganization, for instance, in 1936,. 
based upon experiences m former organizations. There have been 
reorganizations in part here and there since then — whenever more 
improved methods of operating were found or whenever certain 
elements had found their way into the organization which we believed 
did not belong in it and had to be removed. 

I believe again through the experiences of these past years that 
there was quite a bit which could be improved upon in every respect 
and that is what we are undertaking now and what I call "reorganiza- 
tion." 

Mr. Thomas. In this reorganization which you are bringing about 
you are trying to remove certain elements which you do not believe^ 
or rather, which you believe should not be in the organization? 

Mr. Kunze. That is quite true. 



rX-AMKUKAX rUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIKS 8257 

Mr. Thomas. What do you mean — it is not clear to me why these 
ehMnents shouhl not be in the organization. What kind of elements 
do you mean and what are they doing? 

Mr. KuNZE. Well, there is, for example, a man named Healey in 
Chicago, who was never a member of this organization but who claimed 
to have similar beliefs and wanted its support and its recommenda- 
tions among (lerman-Americans and things of that kind. Making 
sure that he and other such have nothing whatever to do with us and 
are not furtheretl by us and don't by any chance get into our ranks to 
find ways and means to make sure we find these people and keep them 
from using the name of the organization in order to give the public or 
the authorities a twisted conception of what we are actually fighting 
for. 

That is also a part of the reorganization. 

Mr. Thomas. That is not very clear to me; but have you brought 
about any reorganization here in New Jersey? 

Mr. KuNZE. Not to any noticeable extent. For instance, makmg 
sure that the units and the other officers of the organization throughout 
the country 

Mr. Thomas. But 1 am referring now to New Jersey. I have left 
the rest of the country. 

Mr. KuNZE. All right, sir. Referring to New Jersey — seeing to 
it that the officers responsible keep the authorities informed con- 
cerning what they are douig, nudve sure that these authorities have 
every chance to see what is going on and to investigate it to make 
sure that such speakers who have a way of speaking, which is not 
compatible with the laws of the State or the laws of the land or the 
principles of the organization are kept aw^ay from our speaker's stand. 

Mr. Thomas. You haven't made any changes in New Jersey since 
you have been in office? Has there been or hasn't there been a re- 
organization in New Jersey? 

Mr. KuNZE. The things I just mentioned also apply to the State of 
New Jersey. 

Mr. Thomas. Then when Mr. Klapprott goes on the stand he can 
tell what the changes are in New Jersey? 

Mr. KuNZE. He would know them more than I would. 

Mr. Starnes. Have the purposes of the bund, as set forth in their 
constitution of 1936, been changed since you took over the organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. KuNZE. The purposes of the organization as an organization 
of American citizens have not been changed. The purposes and aims 
outlining what this organization stands for have been revised on more 
than one occasion to attract more attention to various subjects which 
have been mentioned too little before. 

Mr. Starnes. Last year Mr. Kubn gladly furnished us with a copy 
of the constitution, which set forth the aims and pvn'poses of the 
organization and he briefly summarized the purposes as follows: 

First, to form a political unit or a political party to see that a minor- 
ity, as he termed it, a persecuted minority, and that is in substance 
what you said a moment ago, were given political representation in 
our aftairs of government — in the affairs of om- Govennnent. 

Is that still one of the professed aims of tlie bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. If it was understood by this committee that it could 
be the object of the German-American Bund to alter the system under 
which our United States were built up in order to in the future to have 



8258 UN-A:\rERiCAN propaganda activities 

direct political representation for so-called national minorities, then 
that is not the case and never has been in the German-American Bund. 

We have never had the objective of having representatives in 
Congress. 

Mr. Starnes. I don't want to be discourteous to you but your 
answers are too involved and they are not responsive, sufficiently 
responsive. 

Mr. Kulm testified that they had a threefold purpose in organizing 
the bund in 1936. One was to establish a political party in America 
which would give representation in the political life of America to a 
minority which was now being denied those full rights. Secondly, it 
was established for the purpose of combating the inroads of com- 
munism and, third, that it was anti-Semitic. He made those state- 
ments before this same committee in August of last year, August or 
September, under oath. 

Now, I am asking you if the general purposes of the bund as stated 
by Mr. Kuhn, the founder and the leader of the bund until December 
of the past year, has there been any fundamental change in the pur- 
poses and objectives of the organization. 

That is what 1 am asking you. 

Mr. KuNZE. If that is the sense conveyed by what Mr. Kuhn 
said, then so far as I am concerned it never has been the basic principle 
of the German-American Bund but is his personal idea about it. 
I believe 

Mr. Starnes. He formed the bund, did he not? 

Mr. KuNZE. He became the first national leader. 

Mr. Starnes. And he was its national leader until December of 
the past year? 

Mr. KuNZE. So far as 1 know Mr. Kulm I don't believe he intended 
to convey the impression which you just have given me, Mr. Starnes. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, his language was veiy clear and very specific 
and it was not capable of being misunderstood. 

Mr. KuNZE. I know that since I have been responsible the purposes 
and aims have been rephrased so there should be removed any room 
for doubt. 

Mr, Starnes. That is what I am asking you. You said a moment 
ago that the reason you joined the bund yourself was for the purpose 
of seeing that a minority group of American citizens should be given, 
or would be given, the political rights and economic rights to which 
they were entitled but which you were now being denied. That cer- 
tainly is in line with what Mr. Kuhn said a year ago. Now, in what 
other respe ts or what respect, if any, is there a change in the purpose 
of the bund? You say that is the sole reason you joined the bund; 
Mr. Kulm says that is one of the three reasons that he set up the 
organization. Now, in what other respect does the present organiza- 
tion differ from Mr. Kuhn's statement and conception of the bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. wStarnes. Does your organization, in other words, I will be 
specific — I will help you — does your organization still combat com- 
munism in this country and elsewhere, those who sympathize with 
your viewpoint, as they did in the years gone by? 

Mr. KuNZE. It combats communism and any other political inter- 
nationalism in the United States. 

Mr. Starnes. It does combat communism? 

Mr. KuNZE. As an international political power in the United States. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8259 

Mr. VooRHis. Does it oonibat nazi-isni in the same way? 

Mr. KuNZf:. Any foreign-controlled, political, or economic power in 
these United States. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean you are opposed to any spread of the 
influence of Hitler in the United States; is that right? 

Mr. KuNZE. We are opposed to the spread of the influence 

Mr. Thomas. I think 3-ou should answer tlie question. 

Mr. KuNZE. To the influence of Hitler as a political or economic 
conception in these United States, or any other foreign political power 
or international political or economic power. 

Mr. VooRHis. What do you do to try to stop the spread of the 
influence of Hitler in the United States, specifically? 

Mr. KuNZE. We are interested in developing the respect of the 
German element in the United States back to the stage at w^liich it 
belongs, not with a political party of the German elem.ent but within 
the entire citizenry, by helping to reconstitute or maintain the political 
and economic set-up in the United States something similar to that 
upon which the country was founded. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you said aw^hile ago that you were opposed to 
the spread of international political influence in the United States, if 
1 understood you correctl}'? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. And you said you were opposed to the spread of 
communism in the United States and you were opposed to the spread 
of nazi-ism in the United States and I asked you what your organiza- 
tion is doing to combat the spread of nazi-ism in the United States. 
What is it doing? 

Mr. KuNZE. I believe I expressed myself clearly in the first place 
when I wanted it understood that we are just as much against the 
importation of foreign political or economic systems from Germany 
as we are from any other country-, but if we can learn from the expe- 
riences of other countries in the economic or any other field upon the 
basis of the American republican system, we are certainh' not opposed 
to learning. 

Mr. VoORHis. Everybody will agree to that. Why is it that through 
the l)und there is all kinds of literature brouglit in here from Germany? 

Mr. Starnes. We have, of course, in the files of the committee 
numerous publications which were furnished us either by our investi- 
gators or given to us by Mr. Kuhn himself or his agents, some of 
which, of course, undeniably and undoubted!}' had their inspiration 
and their source from Germany. 

For instance, Mein Kampf. There is undeniable testimony under 
oath that that was used widely in your camps and read by your 
members. 

Then we have, of course, any number of exhibits that came through 
the Ausland in Stuttgart, which, of course, is financed by the German 
Government, according to the testimony. 

We are now asking you whereui the aims and purposes difl'er from 
heretofore and the method of operation dift'ers from heretofore, because 
Mr. Kuhn and othei-s who were members of the bund heretofore 
gladly testified, apparently, because some came in voluntarily and 
gave us this information. 

Mr. KuNZE. Insofar as your third, shall I say conception, concerning- 
the meaning of Mr. Kuhn's utterances last vear is conceiiied, I must 



8260 UN-AMERICAN PKDI'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 

also protest and say that the German-American Bund is not an 
~anti-any race. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words the German -American Bund is not 
anti-Semitic? 

Mr. KuNZE. It is not except insofar as it has to be in self-defense on 
some occasions. 

Mr. Starnes. And you are entirely friendly and your relations with 
people of Jewish descent in this country are entirely cordial and you 
work together in harmony to promote the welfare of the country; 
is that right? 

Mr. KuNZE. That may or may not be the case, depending on the 
individual. If I may say that what has been considered the anti- 
Semitism of the bund will have been its reaction to activities by people 
Avho happen to be Jews. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Voorhis wishes to ask a question. 

Mr. Voorhis. If the Anti-Nazi League was formed in 1937 how 
could the bund have been formed to counteract it? 

Mr. Kunze. I can assure you, Mr. Voorhis, that the Friends of 
New Germany were formed as a reaction to the boycott activities 
which came before. 

Mr. Voorhis. Can you give us a single, solitary instance in the 
United States of discrimination against a person because he was a 
German? I do not know of anyone who does not have the greatest 
respect for people of German descent. I would like to have you give 
me one single instance where somebody was discriminated against 
in the United States because he was a German. 

Mr. Ki^NZE. There was an occasion when a list of unit leaders of 
the German-American Bund was submitted to this committee. As I 
understand it that list was submitted on the condition that it would 
not be published. That list appeared in the daily press a day or two 
later and at least two of those leaders immediately lost their jobs. 

Mr. Voorhis. That is begging the question on that particular 
point. I did not ask you about members of the German -American 
Bund. I asked you where there was discrimination because a person 
was of German descent. It is a very different matter when a racial 
group organizes in militant fashion, as the bund has done. 

I would really like to ask you whether you think you can accomplish 
anything for the welfare of the average German, the average American 
citizen of German descent, by setting him apart from his fellow Ameri- 
cans in an organization of that kind? I believe that if you consider 
that discrimination it is due to the very basic blunder that has been 
made in the formation of the organization in the first place. 

Mr. KuNZE. He is being set apart from the rest of the citizenry 
not by us but by those who make it a point to do so if he has the slight- 
est decency left him so far as honoring his own name is concerned. 

Mr. Voorhis. Will you please give me an instance where that has 
happened? 

Mr. KuNZE. It is difficult for me to do so without bringing proof 
because the people who have suffered themselves have not the courage 
to get on the witness stand and swear to it. 

Mr. Voorhis. You don't have to prove a thing, Mr. Kunze; I will 
take your word for it. 

Mr. KuNZE. But I know a number of instances where it happened. 

Mr. Voorhis. And I want you to tell me one case where a man was 
discriminated aaainst because he was a German in the United States. 



UN-ami: UK AN I-KOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8261 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. VooKHis. Now, there must be thousands of such cases if that 
is the basis of an organization of this kind. 

Mr. KuNZE. There are. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, name one of them. 

Mr. KuNZE. There is legislation before the Congress of the United 
States; there are regulations applying to the P. W. A. 

Mr. Starnes. And those things are all the result of the bund 
movement and its allied activities? 

Mr. KuNZE. They represented a discrimination against a group of 
citizens which has not been proven to be in any way disloyal. 

Mr. VooRHis. I want you to give me an example of discrimination 
against a person because he is a German. 

Mr. KuNZE. There are employment agencies in various cities with 
signs on their windows w^hich say: "Germans need not apply," 
because of the artificial public opinion which has been created. 

Mr. Starnes. Let me say this to you : There is no legislation which 
discriminates against any American citizen who subscribes to or 
follows the American principles of government. 

In the administration of relief we have spent billions of dollars in 
the last 7 or 8 years helping to take care of the distressed condition 
and the needs and the misery of fellow human beings who are not 
even American citizens and who don't even subscribe to our form of 
government. 

Now, give us some specific examples if you can. 

Mr. KuNZE. I can't give you any names. 

Mr. Starnes. You can't give us a specific name? 

Mr. KuNZE. I wouldn't give any names. 

Mr. Starnes. We will recess for 5 minutes. 

(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Air. Starnes. The committee wiU resume the session. 

How many posts of the bund do you have in the State of New 
Jersey Sit the present time, Mr. Kunze? 

Air. Kunze. We have no posts, Mr. Starnes. 

Mr. Starnes. What do you call them now? Units? You know 
what I am talking about, branches, posts, local units. I just want to 
find the correct terminology. How many local miits do you have in 
the State of New Jersey? 

Mr. Kunze. I am sorry, but I couldn't say. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in the State of New York? 

Mr. Thomas. He is not answering the question. He says he is 
sorry he couldn't say in New Jersey. He must know what he has in 
New Jersey. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in the State of New York? 

Mr. Kunze. It would be somewhere from a half dozen on up. 

Mr. Starnes. How manv in the New England area? 

Mr. Kunze. There are several there. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you say as many as six? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't believe there are that many. 

Mr. Starnes. How nuiny in the Midwest area around Chicago? I 
believe that was the original division. What is in the Midwest dis- 
trict or Midwest area, if I am not usmg the correct terminology you 
will understand what I mean. There would be a dozen in the 
Middle West? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 



8262 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Now, along the Pacific Coast or the far West areaT 

Mr. KuNZE. There are several there. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you say as many as seven? 

Mr. KuNZE. I don't believe there are quite that many. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in the South? 

Mr. KuNZE. Two or three, depending on how these geographical 
areas are. I don't know just exactly ofi'hand just where they are 
located or what their names are. 

Mr. Starnes. With only 40 local units you are unable to tell the 
committee the exact locations or to divide them into their geograph- 
ical districts and give us approximately how many in each? 

Mr. KuNZE. There are more cities and towns in which members 
are resident than there are functioning units and that is the only 
difficulty in determining exactly where units are located or where 
there are simply several members who correspond directly with 
headquarters. 

Mr. Starnes. Has there been any effort since you became the act- 
ing head and the head of the organization, to cooperate with groups 
of citizens who have the same ideals and aspirations? 

Mr. KuNZE. There have been no specific conversations or corre- 
spondence with such organizations in that time. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, since 1939 then you have ceased as 
an organization, and when I say ''you," I mean your organization, 
you have ceased any efforts to unite with other groups who have 
the same ideals and aspirations that you have or follow approximately 
the same party line or the same political line? 

Mr. Kunze. In eft'ect, yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. In effect that is true? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, you did have a meeting here in the State of 
New Jersey quite recently, didn't you, with another group? 

I will renew my question. Has your organization had any joint 
meetings with other groups during the past 12 months, seeking to 
reach an agreement with the view of working toward a common end, 
or have you had meetings with other groups whose aims and aspira- 
tions may follow the same political line as yours to a certain extent? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You haven't had any meetings with the Silver Shirt 
group? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Not anybody? 

Mr. Kunze. If that had taken place anywhere throughout the 
country in some small unit as a local affair I would not know about 
it, but the German-American Bmid as such has done notliing of the 
kind. 

Mr. Starnes. You do not deny, however, that local units of the 
Bund may have met and consorted with other groups such as the 
Silver Shirt gi'oup, or the Kjiights of the Ku Klux Klan, or the Knights 
of the \yhite Camellia? 

Mr. Kunze. Mr. Chairman, I gave out a specific order shortly after 
taking charge that there is to be no connection of any kind with any 
other organization in the country. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8263 

Air. Starnes. That is one of the changes of poHcy in the Bund in 
the past 12 months? 

Mr. KuNZE. Insofar as that may not have been clear before. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, the testimony is undeniably clear before that 
there had been numbers of meetings between individuals who headed 
various organizations in this country in an effort to present a united 
front along those lines. 

Mr. KuNZE. In that event then it is a change of policy. 

Mr. Starnes. You say it is a definite change? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir; may I complete the sentence? 

Mr. Starnes. Was there any specific reason for inviting the Klan to 
attend a joint meeting with the Bund here in the State of New Jersey? 
Was there any specific reason for that? Let me ask you this ques- 
tion: Is Camp Nordland the property of the German- American Bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. It is not, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is it the propert}^ of an affiliate of the German- 
American Bund or a local unit of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Thomas. Does the German-American Bund meet there? 

Mr. Starnes. It has met there regularly for a number of years, 
hasn't it? 

Mr. Kunze. Not regularly. 

Mr. Starnes. It has met there over a period of years? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know of any other organization that meets 
there other than the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kunze. I couldn't — I don't know that definitely because I am 
not directly connected. 

Air. Starnes. Do you know of any other organization ever meeting 
there at any time for any purpose other than the German-American 
Bund? 

Air. Kunze. Air. Chairman, I understand that the Ku Klux Klan 
of New Jersey had an afi'air there this summer — that is, they they 
were permitted by the owners of that property to use that property 
for an affair of their own. It was not a joint affair with anyone else. 

Air. Starnes. Were the members of the German-American Bund 
present on that occasion? 

Mr. Kunze. If they were there they were there as individuals and 
guests. 

Air. Starnes. Were you there on that occasion? 

Air. Kunze. I was not, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You were not? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Air. Starnes. Do you know of any other officials of the German- 
American Bund who were present on that occasion? 

Air. Kunze. I could not swear to that because I don't definitely 
know. 

Air. Thomas. Was Klapprott there? 

Mr. Kunze. He may have been there. I could not say. 

Air. Thomas. You also know that the Smythe organization — I just 
€an't recall the name of the organization at the present time, was 
present at that same affair? 

Air. Kunze. I don't know. I don't know whether they were there 
on that day. 

Air. Thomas. You read about the meeting? 



8264 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. So far as I know it was only the Klan that was there. 

Mr. Thomas. You read about it in the newspapers? You read the 
Klan was there and the Smythe organization and Mr. Klapprott was 
there and various other bund officials were there. You read all about 
that? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Are you one of the trustees of the German-American 
Bund Auxiliary, a domestic corporation in the State of New Jersey? 

Mr. Kunze. I am one of the directors; yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that the group that owns Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Kunze. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Who are the other trustees? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't know their names. I am afraid Mr. Klapprott 
or whoever loiows that will have to testify. 

Mr. Starnes. How many trustees in the group that owns Camp 
Nordland? 

Mr. Kunze. I believe seven. 

Air. Starnes. Seven; and you are the only person that you know 
of that is a member of the board? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. You don't know the other six members? 

Mr. Kunze. I know Mr. Klapprott is president. 

Mr. Starnes. And do you know who the other five members are? 

Mr. Kunze. I do not, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know who the secretary or treasurer of the 
organization is? 

Mr. Kunze. I am afraid I could not swear to that. 

Mr. VooRHis. Don't you meet with the other trustees? 

Mr. Kunze. They meet but I haven't been there regularly. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you ever there? 

Mr. Kunze. At these meetings? 

Mr. Starnes. Have you ever attended any meetings there of any 
kind or character? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't believe I have this year. 

Mr. Starnes. You have in previous years? 

Mr. Kunze. I was not a director before. 

Mr. Starnes. I know, but you have met with any group or attended 
any meetings at Camp Nordland at any time during the past 5 or 6 
years? 

Mr. Kunze. I am instructed by counsel because I am a prospective 
defendant perhaps in a suit in New Jersey concerning speeches made 
at Camp Nordland, that I should not testify against mj^^self. In that 
eventuality • 

Mr. Starnes. What is the ground, that it might incriminate you? 
Mr. Counsel, is that the objection? 

Mr. Keegan. That is right. I will help you to get an answer to 
that question if it is possible, Mr. Chau-man, but not in that form. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know Mr. Mathias Kohler? 

Mr. Kunze. I know Mr. Koliler; yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is he one of the trustees of this organization? 

Mr. Kunze. I believe he is; yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. We haven't gotten an answer to the other question. 

Mr. Starnes. Just a moment and we will get it. Do vou know 
Mr. John C. Fitting? 



rX-A.MKllICAX rUiM'AGANDA A(T1\ 1 TIKS 



8265 



Ml'. KuNZE. I know him: yos, sir. 

Mr. Staknes. Is he a m('iiil)or or is hv n trustee of the German- 
American Bund AuxiHarv \vhicli owtis or operates the Nordhmd 
Camp? ^ 

Mr. KuNZE. 1 beUeve he is. 

Mr. StaRxNes. Isn't he the secretary? 

Mr. Kunze. I believe he is. 

Mr. Starnes. And Mr. Klapprott is the president, isn't he? 

Mr. Kunze. I know tliat. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, do you know Mr. Eiehard — I can't pronounce 
his hist name: S-c-h-i-e-1-e? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know Mr. Schiele? 

Mr. Kunze. I beheye I know the gentleman. 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't he one of the members of the hmwd of trustees 
of this organization? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't laiow. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't know? 

Mr. Kunze. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you Imow Mr. Paul Sehaarschmidt? 

Mr. Kunze. I know him slightly; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Is he a member of the board of trustees of this 
organization? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't know. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't know that? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you Imow Mi-. George — I can't make this out— 
Neupert — Mr. George Neupert? 

Mr. Kunze. I know Mr. George Neupert. 

Mr. Starnes. Is he one of the trustees of this organization? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't know that. sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do 3^ou know Mr. Carl Sehipphorst? 

Mr. Kunze. I know Mr. Carl Sehipphorst. 

Mr. Starnes. Is he one of the trustees? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't know concerning him. 

Mr. Starnes. When have you attended a meeting of the board of 
trustees of this organization? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't believe I ever did. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't happen to belong to the Know Nothing 
Party? I am afraid you are being evasive in vour answers, whether 
purposely or not, I don't laiow\ 

Mr. Ki'NZE. Mr. Chairman, there would be no point in my evading 
the answers concerning that board of directors because that can be- 
come kno\\ni to you as soon as you want it. I only stated the fact^ 
that I know definitely that Mr. Klapprott is the president; that I was 
made a director but that I have not been in a position to take part in 
any of its meetings so far. That is why I don't know definitely con- 
cerning those other names you have mentioned. 

Mr. Starnes. The thing that puzzles the Chair about this things 
Mr. Kunze, is that you belong to an organization that has the control 
and direction and the ownership of Camp Nordland and yet you don't 
know who the members are — who the seven members of the board of 
trustees are when you are the directing genius and the head of it — of a 
national organization known as the German-American Bund. You 



8266 rx-AMP:RicAN propaCxANda activities 

are also very indefinite as to the number of local units or the member- 
ship that you have. You are very indefuiite in your recollection or 
memory as to the location of these various local units and yet you state 
that this organization is one which is national in scope and has a 
very definite and decided program — affirmative program looking to 
the benefit of its membership and too, so you profess, the public weal 
of this Nation. 

The Chair is at a loss to understand that position. 

Mr. KuNZE. There are national officers and each one has his parti- 
cular work to do. 

Mr. Starnes. How many national officers do you have for your 
German-American Bund at the present time? 

Mr. KuNZE. There is a national secretary and a national treasurer. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you Icnow who the national secretary is? 

Mr. KuNZE. I know those officers; yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you kindly give us the names for the record? 

Mr, KuNZE. The national secretary is Wilhelm Luedtke. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is your national treasurer? 

Mr. Kunze. Gustav Elmer. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, do you have any other national officers? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any vice presidents, national vice presi- 
dents? If so, how many and who are they? 

Mr. Kunze. The midwestern department leader is deputy national 
leader. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is he, the midwestern department leader? 

Mr. Kunze. George Froboese. 

Mr. Starnes. He was the leader under Mr. Kulm? 

Mr. Kunze. He was midwestern department leader. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, who are your New England or eastern depart- 
ment leaders? 

Mr. Kunze. The eastern department leader is Mr. Klapprott. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is your Pacific coast or Far Western leader? 

Mr. Kunze. The western department leader is Mr. Hermann 
Schwinn. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any other departments? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Just the three? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't have any departments in the South or 
Southwest? 

Mr. Kunze. The departments run through from North to South. 

Mr. Starnes. I believe that is all the questions I have. Mr. 
Voorhis, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Voorhis. I wanted to ask a couple of ciuestions, if I may. Mr. 
Kimze, what is the approximate amount of dues that come in per 
month to the organization now, do you know? 

Mr. Kunze. I can't make definite statements without the 

Mr. Voorhis. I don't want to know exactly — just approximately. 

Mr. Kunze. Somewhere from $1,000 to $2,000. 

Mr. Voorhis. Per month? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. And is the organization supported entirely by the 
dues that it collects or does it have other sources of revenue? 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8267 

Mr. KrNZE. Tliero arc donations nmdc occasionally hy individuals. 

Mr. VooRHis. By an^^ oruanizations? 

Mr. KuNZE. Not that 1 know, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Has one of the purjioscs of the oipinization l)een tlio 
interpretation of the present regime in Germany to the people of 
America? 

Mr. KuNZE. That is not tlic case. 

^[r. VooRHis. That is not true? 

Mr. Ki'NZE. No, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. And as you stated before, as I understood 3^ou, you 
would he o])posed to the spread of the influence of the present regime 
in Ciermany, is that right? 

Mr. KuNZE. We are opposed to the importation of the German 
political system or any otlier foreign system in the United States, 

Mr. VooRHis. Is that a new tack on the part of the organization?. 
Is that a part of your reorganization? 

Mr. KuNZE. I am sure that it is not. 

Mr. VooRHis. What was the reason then for the organization 
wearing the miiform of the Nazi storm troopers and giving the Nazi 
salute and so on and so forth in the past? 

Mr. KuNZE. That has never been done, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. You want the record to show that that never was 
done; that you never wore a uniform similar to if not exactly ahke 
the ones worn in Germany? And you want to go on record saying^ 
that it was never the practice of the members of the German-American 
Binid to give the Nazi salute or wear the swastika or display it in the 
meetings? 

Mr. KiTNZE. We do use the swastika but I believe that is used in a 
number of countries throughout the world and has been, for all kinds 
of purposes. 

^Ir. VooRHis. And j^ou never used the Nazi salute in meetings? 

Mr. KuNZE. So far as we are concerned it is not a Nazi salute. I 
have never seen a defuiition of that word. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, how do you give that salute then? Has it ever 
been given [demonstrating]? 

Mr. KuNZE. W^e have used a salute with the raised right hand;: 
yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. O. K. 

Mr. KuNZE. That is the one. 

Mr. VooRHis. Is it used now? 

Mr. KuNZE. It is used w^herever the law allows it; yes. sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Wlierever the law allows it? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you feel in doing that and the other things that 
I have mentioned, is not in any way carrying over into the Ignited 
States the influences of modern Germany? 

Mr. KuNZE. Not as such; no, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. You don't think so? 

Mr. KixzE. (No answer.) 

Mr. VooRHis. In the yearbook that we had before our committee 
in its hearing a few months ago, the picture of Mr. Hitler was the first 
picture in the book and then tliere was a picture of the President of the- 
United States. Does that indicate any j)ref(>rence oii the j^ai't of your 
organization? 



8268 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. I am sure if I had had anything to say about that it 
never would have happened. 

Mr. VooRHis. You thought that was a mistake? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir; certainly. 

Mr. VooRHis. Let me ask you this, Mr. Kunze: Certain changes have 
been made; some of these things that used to be done by the bund are 
not done now. Why did you drop those things? Why do you say 
you think including that picture was a mistake? Wlij^ is it that uni- 
forms of any sort are no longer worn and so on? What was your 
reason for making those changes? 

Mr. Kunze. Wherever we have had 'any customs which can be 
misunderstood in their import — where they become a weapon to be 
used in attacking us without any benefits thereby coming out for our 
work, we have, of course tried to improve the situation. That is clear. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, is it possible that some of those things that you 
yourself now say were mistakes, may explain in part for the bitterness 
against the organization by other people in America? 

Mr. Kunze. In many cases; yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. And what would happen to American society as a 
whole, America being composed as she is of people of many different 
races and kinds, if eveiy one of those races were to organize itself into 
a tight little racial group to say that "we propose to advance the 
cause of this particular group to the exclusion of others"? What 
kind of a comitry would you have? 

Mr. Kunze. 1 believe in effect that is the case throughout the 
country now except so far as the German-Americans are concerned. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean every one else is in one organization and 
the German- Americans in another? 

Mr. Kunze. I mean other elements are politically and economically 
much better organized for their own defense than the German- Amer- 
icans are and that is why they are not being made goats. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, I don't know of any racial group that is organ- 
ized in that manner. Is there an organization of Anglo-Saxons in 
America that you know of? 

Mr. Kunze. There are quite a number of them, I believe, and there 
is the Polish National Alliance. 

Mr. VooRHis. That are exclusive and do not permit anybody else 
to belong? 

Mr. Kunze. I could not swear to that. 

Mr. VooRHis. Have there ever been instances, speaking about 
discrimination, have there ever been instances of discrimination or 
intimidation against German-Americans by your organization because 
those German- Americans did not play ball with you? 

Mr. Kunze. No indeed. 

Mr. VooRHis. I might say I disagree with you but that is your 
testimony. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. As I understand it you were born in this country? 

Mr. Kunze. I was, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Would you call yourself an American? 

Mr. Kunze. I do, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Then why do you refer to yourself all the time as a 
Crerman- American? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8269 

Mr. KuNZE. Because the German- American is a political one — 
we arc all Americans, but the blood in our veins is different. 

Mr. Thomas. Oh, the blood in your veins is different from the 
blood in the veins ol" any of the other people of the country? 

Mr. KuNZE. I mean to say that the entire white population of the 
United States is descended from Europeans. We have the En^- 
hsh ^ 

Mr. Thomas. What I want to know is what you are — are you an 
American or a German-American? 

Mr. KuNZE. I am racially a German and politically an American. 

Mr. Thomas. Were your parents born in Germany? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You are racially a Gennan, but you are pohtically an 
American? 

Mr. KuNZE. That is true. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, that is true of people whose parents who were 
born in Ireland? 

Mr. KuNZE. They would be racially Irish and politically American. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, how do you become an American both racially 
and politically? 

Mr. KuNZE. I believe it woidd take a few thousand years to bring 
that about. 

Mr. Thomas. So that the only w^ay you can become an American 
racially and politically is to, as you say, have a thousand years 
go by? 

Mr. KuNZE. That is a round figure, but I believe you understand 
what I mean. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, in regard to these trustees or rather these 
names that you were asked about by the chairman. You said you 
believed that all of them but one were trustees of Camp Nordland? 

Mr. KuNZE. I believe there were two or three concerning whom I 
don't know definitely. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, you did say that Carl Shipphorst 

Mr. KuNZE. I don't know about him. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't know Carl Shipphorst? 

Mr. KuNZE. I don't know whether he is a trustee or not. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you attended any meetings when Carl Shipp- 
horst was present? 

Mr. KuNZE. I don't recall having attended any meetings of that 
board of directors. I would like to call attention to the fact that I 
have only been a dii'ector since their annual meeting of this year. 

Mr. Thomas. What month w^as that? 

Mr. KuNZE. 1 don't recall exactly. 

Mr. Mason. Did you attend that meeting? 

Mr. KuxzE. No, sir. 

Mr. Tho.mas. Have you attended any meeting at Camp Nordland 
since you became the leader of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. I believe that })rings us brings us back to that case that 
is pending. 

Mr. Thomas. You know you have attended meetings out there since 
December 1939. You will admit that, won't you? 

Mr. KuNZE. I am sorry that I cannot answer questions concerning 
that because of that case over there — not because there would be any 
other reason for not answ^ering. 



8270 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Yes; but you are just evading the question. You 
are evading the question. You know that you were out at Camp 
Nordland since December 1939? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Thomas. I don't see any reason for not answering that simple 
question. 

Mr. KuNZE. I understand that I may be speaking against myself 
and incriminating myself in an indictment which may come out of 
Newton. 

Mr. Thomas. I insist that he be compelled to answer the question 
whether he was in Camp Nordland since December 1939. 

Mr. Chairman, I don't think the witness should go into a long con- 
sultation with his attorney. He should answer the question. 

Mr. KuNZE. Mr. Thomas, don't you believe in all fairness that that 
trial over there should be over, if there is to be one, before the Die& 
committee demands an answer to that question? 

Mr. Thomas. The Dies committee hasn't anything to do with any 
trial. 

Mr. KuNZE. It may have. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Witness, the question as I understand it is not 
directed toward any specific meeting or any specific event. It is 
just simply a question as to whether or not you have been at Camp 
Nordland at any Lime since December 1939. That does not involve 
any meeting, does not involve any commission of any crime. You 
certainly know whether you have been out on that piece of property 
or on a piece of property of which you are a trustee and one of the 
joint owners and over which you have control or have had control 
during that period of time. 

The Chair directs you to answer that question because it is pertinent 
to this inquiry. 

Mr. KuNZE. I have been out there; yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, will you please tell the committee when you 
were out there? 

Mr. KuNZE. I was there on the 4th of July when I was arrested. 

Mr. Thomas. And have you been out there since the 4th of July? 

Mr. KuNZE. I have been out there since the 4th of July. 

Mr. Thomas. When? 

Mr. KuNZE. Oh, on a number of occasions. I could not say at the 
moment exactly when. 

Mr. Thomas. It is also true that you have really made your home 
out there? 

Mr. KuNZE. I have not done that, sir; no, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Where is your home? 

Mr. KuNZE. In New York. 

Mr. Starnes. The Chair agreed he did not need to testify to that. 

Mr. Thomas. You referred a little while ago to "other elements. "^ 
What did you mean by that? 

Mr. Kunze. All the various racial elements that make up the 
citizenry of the United States. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. You spoke a moment ago about "difl"erent blood in 
your veins" and the veins of bund members. Just what did you 
mean by that? 



UN-AMKRICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8271 

Mr. KuNZE. Simply what is o;enorally called nationality. We 
have Italian-Americans, English-Americans, Russian-Americans, and 
German-Americans. 

Mr. Staknes. You did not use it with the significance that the 
blood in the veins of the German-American Bund members was 
superior to that which flows through the veins of other American 
citizens? 

Mr. KuNZE. I meant nothing of the kind. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you teach the members of the bund the doctrine 
that people of German descent are a superior race of people? 

Mr. KuNZE. We do not. 

Mr. Starnes. You reaffirm your belief and the necessity of an 
organization such as yours in order that American citizens of German 
descent may have political representation in this country? 

Mr. KuNZE. May have equality with all other elements in every 
respect, that is all. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, let me put it this way: You feel that they 
do not have that equalit}^? 

Mr. KuNZE. They do not at this time; no, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you recite specifically and clearly in what w^ay 
they are denied their political and economic rights? I don't want a 
speech but simply a clear statement as to how they are denied pohtical 
and economic equality in this country? 

Air. KuNZE. They are sufi'ering under boycotts. 

Mr. Starnes. No. 1, they are suffering under boycotts. 

Mr. KuNZE. They are being refused jobs in many places simply 
because they have a German name or look German. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, that is No. 2. 

Mr. KuNZE. They are even being politically hounded as possible 
or probable aliens or rather, traitors simply because they belong to a 
German element and don't deny it. 

Mr. Starnes. What else? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Are they denied a place on the ballot? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Are American citizens to your knowledge, of German 
descent, denied a place on the American ballot? 

Mr. KiJNZE. They are not but their chances of being elected are 
very, very slim unless they condemn everything German. 

Air. Starnes. Ai-e they denied employment in this country? 

Air. KuNZE. In many places. 

Air. Starnes. And do you still maintain that they are not given 
adequate political representation? 

Air. KuNZE. In most cases; yes. 

Air. Voorhis. What chance would a group organized along the 
lines of your organization have of getting people elected to office in 
Germany today? 

Air. KuNZE. I couldn't say. 

Air. Thomas. I would like to ask a question. Supposing (he 
United States and Germany should go to war. Would you be willing 
to fight for the United States against Germany? 

Air. KuNZE. Aly duties as a citizen would not allow me any choice 
in the matter except to do so. 

62626 — 41 — vol. 14 8 



g272 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. I am asking the question — never mind your duties as 
a citizen either m this country or in Germany. Would you fight for 
America against Germany? 

Mr. KuNZE. I answered that question. 

Mr. Thomas. No; you didn't. I would like to know yes or no. 

Mr. KuNZE. 1 understand the question is if the United States were 
to be at war with Germany whether I would serve in the armed forces 
of the United States. 

Mr. Thomas. Against Germany either here or in Germany. 

Mr. KuNZE. I would like to ask other Americans of other extrac- 
tions how they would like to go to war against their countries. I 
would like to ask an American of English descent how much he would 
like to go to war against Great Britain. 

Mr. Starnes. I would say that no man would get any pleasure out 
of fighting anybody. 

Mr. Thomas. The reason I asked that question was when Earl 
Browder was before us, the Communist leader, approximately the 
same question was asked of him, and Earl Browder dodged it and 
finally said that he would just about do the same as he did in 1917, 
which was to be a conscientious objector. 

Mr. Starnes. I want to ask you this and then I am through. You 
say you and your organization are opposed to the importation of any 
political system from foreign sources to American soil? 

Mr. KuNZE. Correct, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You are opposed to the doctrine of communism and 
its importation to America? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Does your organization still fight communism m this 
country as it originally did in 1936, 1937, 1938, and 1939? 

Mr. KuNZE. We do; sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Has there been any, and answer me truthfully, has 
there been any collaboration on the part of yourself and your organiza- 
tion with the Communist Party leadership and organization on a 
political line in this country since 1939? That is September 1939? 

Mr. KuNZE. There has not; sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Has there been any consultation or agreement on a 
plan of action by the two organizations? 

Mr. KuNZE. There has not; sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Has there been any consultation or agreement on a 
plan of action by the two organizations? 

Mr, KuNZE. There has not; sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Has there been the same degree of activity on the 
part of yourself and your organization in fighting the Communist 
Party and the Communist Party line in America since September 1939 
as it was prior thereto? 

Mr. Kunze. That would require a qualified answer. 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't it a fact that you do find yourselves in agree- 
ment, speaking of the German-American Bund and the Communist 
Party, along certain political lines in America today as they affect our 
national relations? 

Mr. Kunze. I do not. I would like to answer your first question. 

Mr. Starnes. Just a moment. Are you opposed to the importation 
of the doctrine of national socialism as exemplified in Germany under 
the leadership of Herr Hitler, to the United States of America? 



IN A.MKKICAN I'UOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8273 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starxes. You would oppose its spread or growth in this 
country as being inimical to the welfare of this country? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You woidd? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You would oppose the importation of fascism and its 
growth in this country? 

Mr. Kunze. Of that or any other form of political system, 

Mr. Starnes. All right, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze, have you ever distributed stickers 
bearing the slogan: "The Yanks Are Not Commg"? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Well, have you or have you not? 

Mr. Kunze. Not personally; no. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever had in your possession stickers 
bearing the slogan: "The Yanks Are Not Coming"? 

Mr. Kunze. I have; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You have? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. "\Miat were you doing with them? 

I would like to explain the purpose of my question. It is a well 
known fact and has been established beyond any doubt that these 
stickers are a Communist Party slogan, originated by the Communist 
Party, propagated by the Communist Party and that the German- 
Amei'ican Bund has taken it up from the Communist Party. 

Mr. Kunze has stated that he has had them in his possession and I 
^\'ould like to know what he did with them. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you distribute them? 

Mr. Kunze. No; they were given to me. I have seen them. I 
have seen them in various parts of the country. They deal with the 
question of whether the United States 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do with them, that is the question, 
Mr. Kunze. 

Mr. Kunze. Those that I received I had until I threw them away. 

Mr. Matthews. You threw all that you had away or do you still 
have some? 

Mr. Kunze. I am speaking of myself personally. 

Mr. Mattthews. Yes; I am speaking of you personally. 

Mr. Kunze. I may have one or two. 

Mr. Matthews. Otherwise you have tlu'own them away; you 
never passed them out. 

Mr. Kunze. I have never personally — never personally never had 
more than a half a dozen. 

Mr. Matthews. Who gave them to you? 

Mr. Kunze. I could not say at the moment. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were they given to you? 

Mr. Kunze. In New York. 

Mr. Mattheavs. By whom? 

Mr. Kunze. I could not say at the moment. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it some member of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Kunze. As I recall it; ves. 



8274 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Well, wouldn't you know who gave you such 
stickers? 

Mr. KuNZE. I would have to determine who it was. 

Mr. Matthews. When were they given to you? 

Mr. KuNZE. At the beginning — somewhere around the beginning 
of this year. 

Mr. Matthews. January 1940? 

Mr. KuNZE. I think so. 

Mr. Matthews. That was about the time — had you seen them 
before that? 

Mr. Kunze. I may have seen them. 

Mr. Matthews. As you traveled around the United States prior 
to 1940 had you seen these stickers? 

Mr. Kunze. Not prior to that time, no, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that that was approximately the 
time that the Communist Party brought these stickers out? 

Mr. Kunze. I don't know that. 

Mr. Keegan. I object to that. 

Mr. Starnes. That is a pertinent inquiry as to whether or not 
there is collaboration as described by Dr. Matthews. The objection 
is overruled. 

Mr. Kunze. There has been absolutely no collaboration. I saw 
those things and I have seen them elsewhere. I have no objection 
to them but I didn't know where they came from or did not ask any 
one for the ri2;ht to use them or anything of that kind. 

Mr. Matthews. I understand that you have never received more 
than a half a dozen — six, is that correct? 

Mr. Kunze. I personally. 

Mr. Matthews. You personally have received six; you have two 
of them still in your possession and you destroyed four or threw four 
away, is that correct? 

Mr. Kunze. That may be true. 

Mr. Matthews. That is your testimony, is it not? 

Mr. Kunze. I could not swear to the definite figures. I have seen 
a few samples of them and had them. 

Mr. Matthews. You have testified that you have two or three 
still in your possession, is that correct? 

Mr. Kunze. I believe I have, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. But you never had more than a half dozen and 
that you did throw some away? 

Mr. Kunze. I say I may have lost them or thrown them away. 

Mr. Matthews. No; you said you did throw them away, isn't 
that correct — isn't that your testimony. 

Mr. Kunze. I don't definitely r(nneniber throwing any away. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do with them then, the ones you 
don't have now? 

Mr. Kunze. I never paid any particular attention to them except 
they looked interesting when I read the text on them. 

Mr. Matthews. But you remember that you had a half dozen and 
now you have only two or three? 

Mr. Kunze. What is the point in that? 

Mr. Matthews. I want to know how you can remember almost 
a year these numbers to which you previously testified but yet you 
can't remember who gave you these stickers. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8275 

Mr. KuxzE. I will correct that then to say that I recall having 
so(Mi thcin, having had one in my hand aiul that 1 may still have it and 
it may have been more than one, but not more than a' half dozen. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been to Germany? 

Mr. KuNZE. I have, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. \\Tien were you in Germany last? 

Mr. KuNZE. In 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. What month were you in Germany in 1938? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. What month did you go to Germanj^ in 1938? 

Mr. KuNZE. I left here in May or June and returned in the middle 
of August. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. When were you in Germany prior to that visit? 

Mr. KuNZE. In 1937, leaving here I beheve in the beginning of 
August and returning in the beginning of November. 

Mr. Matthews. And when were vou in Germanv prior to that visit 
in 1937? 

Mr. KuNZE. In 1930, leaving here in May and returning in July. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever make any other trips to Germany 
than those three? 

Mr. KuNZE. In 1929, leaving here in August and returning in No- 
vember. I am pretty sure of those dates. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever make any other trips to Germany 
than those four? 

Mr. Kunze. I am told that I was taken along on a visit to Germany 
in 1911 but I don't remember anything about that. 

Mr. Matthews. When you were in Germany in 1938 and also in 
1937, were you an official of the German-American Bund in this 
country? 

Mr. KuNZE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You were national organizational director, is that 
correct? 

Mr. Kunze. National public relations director. 

Mr. Matthews. National public relations director? 

Mr. KuxzE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Both in 1937 and 1938 when you were in Ger- 
many? 

Mr. Kunze. Not in 1937. That was an interim period after leaving 
Philadelphia. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you occupy any official position or have any 
connection with the German-American Bund in an official way in 
1937 during your visit to Germany? 

Mr. Kunze. I had given up my Philadelphia unit and was simply a 
member until I returned. 

Mr. Matthews. In 1938 wdien you were in Germany from May to 
August, approximately, 4 or 5 months did you meet 

^Ir. Kunze. Four or five months? It wasn't tliat long. 

Mr. Matthew^s. June, July, August— you went in May. That 
was 4 months. 

Mr. Kunze. I was only there about 4 weeks that time. I believe 
it was June when I left here. 

Mr. Matthew^s. You said from May to August. That is what I 
was going by. At any rate when you were in Germany in 1938 w^hat 
Nazi officials did you personally meet? 



8276 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Of the higher ranks? 

Mr. KuNZE. I did not meet any. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you meet Rudolf Hess? 

Mr. KuNZE. I did not, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not meet Mr. Hitler? 

Mr. Kunze. I did not, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Goering? 

Mr. Kunze. I didn't meet any 

Mr. Matthews. You did not meet any of the higher ranking 
officials? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What cities did vou visit in Germany? 

Mr. Kunze. In 1938? 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you spend most of your time, if I may 
rephrase the question, during those 8 weeks? 

Mr. Kunze. Near the southern border, at the home of my parents- 
in-law. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go to Erfurt? 

Mr. Kt'Nze. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Did you go to the Brown House in Munich? 

Mr. Kunze. I did not, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you visit anv of the Nazi propaganda head- 
quarters in Germany? 

Mr. Kunze. I did not, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did vou visit Stuttgart? 

Mr. Kunze. Not in 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you there in 1937? 

Mr. Kunze. In Stuttgart; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go to Erfurt in 1937? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you visit the Ausland in Stuttgart in 1937? 

Mr. Kunze. I visited the museum in that building while I was in 
that city but in no official capacity whatever. 

Mr. Matthews. Has the German-American Bund sent persons to 
Germany for study of any kind? 

Mr, Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Have groups or delegations been organized under 
the auspices of the German-American Bund for trips to Germany? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. In 1936 there was a trip to the Olympic 
Games but I could not say anything about it because I wasn't in 
New York and had nothing to do with the arranging of it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze you testified that the swastika is 
used by the German -American Bund, is that correct? 

Mr, Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And in connection with that testimony you 
elaborated your statement and said that the swastika was used by 
many countries throughout the world. Do you mean to imply that 
the use of the swastika by the German-American Bimd was not in 
anyway whatsoever connected with the fact that the swastika is the 
emblem of the National Socialist Party of Germany? 

Mr. Kunze. We use that symbol as a sign of Christian nationalism 
and more definitely as a sign of that part of the white people to wliich 
we are most closely related in contradistinction to atheistic inter- 



UN-AMEHTCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8277 

nationalism, b\it not as representing any particular political system 
whatever. 

Mr. Matthews. I repeat the question, Mr. Chairman. I would 
like to know if Mr. Kunze means to say by his testimony that the 
use of the swastika by the Cierman-American Bund in the United 
States has absolutely no coiniection wdth the fact that the swastika 
is the official emblem of the Nazi Party m Germany. Now, I think 
you can answer yes or no to that question. 

Mr. Kunze. Will you read the question? 

Mr. Starnes. Read the question, Mr. Reporter. 

[Question read.] 

Air. Kunze. No. 

Mr. Staunes. What is your answer? 

Mr. Kunze. No. 

Mr. Matthews. The answer is, there is a connection? 

Mr. Kunze. There is no connection whatever. 

Mr. Matthews. It is entirelv accidental, in other words, as far as 
these two facts are related, the fact that the German-American Bund 
uses the swastika and that Hitler uses the swastika in Germany — that 
is purely an accidental thing? 

Mr. Kunze. May I enlarge on that answer? 

Mr. Matthew^s. I would like to know if we are to understand 
that it is purely an accidental matter that the German-American 
Bund in the United States is using the swastika and that the Nazi 
Party in Germany uses it as its official emblem? 

Mr. Kunze. Dr. Matthew^s, I believe I answered that more cor- 
rectly than with the word "accidental" in my previous reply. W^e 
recognize that sj^mbol over there and elsewhere in the world as a 
symbol of Clu-istian nationalism in contradistinction to atheistic 
internationalism, and we use it because it happens to be that form 
most generally used by races of the world closely related to us, but it 
has no connection whatsoever with the political philosophy of national 
socialism. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I understand you to say, and correct me if 
I am ^^■Tong, that you recognize that the National Socialist Party of 
Germany uses the swastika because it is a symbol of Christian na- 
tionalism. Is that what you stated in your testimony? 

Mr. Kunze. I am sure over there it means more. It means the 
entire political system also and it does not mean that so far as we 
are concerned here. 

Mr. Starnes. How do you draw a distinction between what it 
means there and what it means here if it is a part of a Christian 
internationalism? 

Mr. Kunze. If we adopt the symbol we also know why we adopt it 
and know what it is to mean to us. 

Mr. Starnes. You adopt it with reservations. You adopt a sym- 
bol here in America but you do so with reservations so far as politicn.! 
lines of action are concerned, is that right? 

Mr. Kunze. Mr. Starnes, there are other political movements in 
other countries also, in no way interested in importing Germany's 
political S3^stem who are also using, or at least up to recently, are using- 
that same symbol, simply as a Christian nationalist symbol. 

Mr. Voorhis. AYliat are those other groups? 



8278 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. Some in Canada, I believe, and even one of those 
similar movements in Great Britain until it changed. It once used 
that symbol also. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that Sir Moseley's organization? 

Mr. KiTNZE. I believe Moseiey had it in the beginning. T have 
seen an Arab movement that uses that symbol. I have seen Russian 
nationalists that use it. 

Mr. VooRHis. But all the movements, at any rate, receive from 
time to time from Germany certain literature and help in the way of 
materials to be used to spread the gospel, don't they? 

Mr. KuNZE. I don't know anything about that. It is not an anti- 
Semitic symbol so far as we are concerned. It stands in the United 
States as we see it because the vast majority of the population is 
considered gentile-Christians, as a means to help unify them in the 
preservation of American nationalism and the American political 
system, which happens to be a Republic. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean you want to unify them around the 
swastika? 

Mr. KuNZE. Not as a political symbol. The political symbol is 
the flag of the United States. There is no idea whatever of changing 
that. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze, if you discovered that an organization 
used the hammer and sickle as its emblem — — 

Mr. Kunze. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You would conclude would you not, that there 
was some connection between them with the Communist movement 
or at least some very distinct sympathy for the Communist move- 
ment — wouldn't that be a conclusion that you would draw? 

Mr. Kunze. It would be a reasonable conclusion to draw because 
the hammer and sickle does not represent a simple geometrical figure 
which has been used throughout history for all kmds of purposes; 
whereas the swastika has through thousands of years always repre- 
sented something, as we understand history, having to do with races 
of people related to us. 

Mr. VooRHis. Didn't the swastika originate among the Indian 
tribes in South America? 

Mr. Kunze. I know they use it there and in North America. 

Mr. VooRHis. Is that where it came from? 

Mr. Kunze. Perhaps. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they Christian internationalists? Haven't 
you read, Air. Kunze, that the Indians in Arizona recently repudiated 
their century-old use of the swastika because of their fear there would 
be confusion in their use of the symbol and the movement of Hitler? 

Mr. Kunze. I wonder just what they were afraid of. 

Mr. Matthews. I wondered if you had noticed that. 

Mr. Kunze. They want to sell their carpets and rugs. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze, did you ever make an organization 
trip to Texas on behalf of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kunze. I did, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What towns or cities in particular did you visit 
in the State of Texas for the purpose of organizing the German- 
American Bund. 

Air. Kunze. I do not care to expose any individuals in Texas or 
anywhere else to any persecution, because their names may become 
known as a consequence of this hearing. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8279 

Mr. Matthews. I have asked you lor the names of the towns and 
cities. 

Mr. KuNZE. The authorities know if there are any bund members 
in Texas — any units operating, where they are and who those people 
are. 

Mr. Starnes. He is not asking you, Mr. Kunze, for the names of 
any individuals nor about any visit to any individual. He is asking 
you merely what towns or cities you visited in Texas when you were 
down there. 

Mr. ^Iatthews. Did jou visit Taylor for the purpose of organiz- 
ing the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you visit Taylor? 

Mr. Kunze. I visited Taylor but not for the purpose of organizing 
anything. 

^Ir. Matthews. Did you discuss the organization of the bund in 
Texas with anyone in Taylor? 

Mr. Kunze. Only academically. I visited the publisher of a small 
newspaper. 

Mr. ^IATTHEWS. Wliat do you mean b}-^ "discussing it with him 
academically"? 

Mr. Kunze. There was no intention of creating any part of the 
organization there or getting members there. I was interested in his 
paper. 

Mr. Matthews. You just set up the hypothesis that in case there 
were an organization there you would do so and so, is that what you 
mean by "academically discussing it"? 

Mr. Kunze. We may have spoken of the bund as such. I visited 
that town to meet the publisher of that newspaper because I liked 
some of the things in it. 

.Mr. Matthews. Was that Hans Ackermann of Taylor, Tex.? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The editor of the Texas Herold? 

Mr. Kunze. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you visit New Braimfels? 

Mr. Kunze. I have been through New Braunfels; I never visited 
anyone there. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you discuss the organization of the bund in 
Texas with a Mr. Leonhard? 

Mr. Kunze. I am acquainted with him; he is not connected with 
the organization. I have discussed with him that I am connected 
with the bund and that I am interested in finding people who sympa- 
thize with it. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you discuss the subject of organizing the 
bund in Texas or in any part of Texas with a Mr. Koetter? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes; in the same manner as with Mr. Leonhard. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Kunze, you have read of the recently 
concluded pact between Berlin, Rome, and Tokyo. Does the German- 
American Bund support the principles embodied in that pact? 

Mr. Kunze. The German-American Bund has nothing to do with 
the politics of other countries. 

Mr. Matthews. What is vour publication — your official publica- 
tion? 

Mr. Kunze. The F'ree American and Deutscher Weckruf und 
Beobachter. 



3280 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you mean to say that the Deutscher Weckruf 
und Beobachter has never discussed the poHtics of other countries? 

Mr. KuNZE. As a newspaper I would suppose it would. 

Mr. Matthews. Has it ever discussed them editorially? 

Mr. KuNZE. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. You read the papers, of course, don't you? 

Mr. KuNZE. Quite frequently from an American point of view. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, now, how do you square that with your 
testimony that you don't discuss the politics of other countries? 

Mr. KuNZE. The German- American Bund doesn't take any stand 
on the politics of other coimtries except insofar as they directly affect 
the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, do you think the recently concluded pact 
affects the United States? 

Mr. KuNZE. I have no opinion on it. 

Mr. Matthews. I will change the question: Has the Deutscher 
Weckruf und Beobachter in any way taken a position on this recently 
concluded pact between these three powers? 

Mr. KuNZE. The Deutscher Weckruf und Beobachter may discuss 
the pros and cons as any other newspaper would. 

Mr. Matthews. Has it done so? 

Mr. KuNZE. I believe that is too recent. I don't believe that has 
been done. 

Mr. Matthews. How often does the publication appear? 

Mr. KuNZE. Every week. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Edward James Smythe? 

Mr. KuNZE. Slightly. 

Mr. Matthews. In what connection have you met him? Has he 
been actively connected with the work of the bund? 

Air. KuNZE. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Never had any connection with the bund? 

Mr. KuNZE. So far as I know he has never been a member or in 
any way connected with the bund. 

Mr. Matthews. He has never worked to support bund projects or 
meetings or rallies? 

Mr. KuNZE. He may in past years have been a speaker at some 
meeting — I couldn't say. 

Mr. Matthews. He was one of the speakers at Camp Nordland 
that you referred to as having held a rally under the auspices of the 
Ku Klux Klan, was he not? 

Mr. KuNZE. That may be. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze, can you identify that as the letterhead 
■of the German-American Bund and the signature of J. Wlieeler Hill? 

Mr. Kunze. (No answer.) 

Mr. AIatthews. You are not reading the letterhead ; you are read- 
ing the contents of the letter, are you not? 

Mr. Kunze. I believe that letterhead was used at that time but I 
could not swear to the signature. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you have seen Mr James Wheeler Hill's 
signature, have you not? 

Mr. Kunze. I have seen it; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce this in 
■evidence. It is on the letterhead of the German-American Bund, a 



genuine : 



rX-AMKI?ICAN PUorACAXHA ACTIVITIES 8281 

letter dated Fe])ruarv 3, 1939. and addressed to Mr. Edward James 
Smytlie, and signed by James Wheeler Hill. 
The letter reads : 

Dear Mr. Smythe: If you liave not as yet sold the tickets to the Madison 
Square 

Air. Starxes. Are you familiar with the signature of James Wheeler 
Hill? 

Mr. KuNZE. Fairly; yes, sir, 

Mr. Starxes. You have seen it a number of times? 

Mr. KuNZE. I have. 

Mr. Starxes. You have had correspondence with him and you 
have seen his signature on letters and documents that you knew were 
? 

Mr. KuNZE. I have, sir. 

Mr. Starxes. All right. Now, does that look like his hand- 
writing — does that look like his signature — does that resemble it? 

Mr. KuxzE. It resembles it but I could not swear to its accuracy. 

Mr. Starxes. He says he knows his signature and he has seen it a 
number of times and he says it looks like his handwriting. 

Mr. Matthews. The letter reads: 

Dear Mr. Smythe: If you have not as yet sold the tickets for the Madison 
Square Garden rally I ask you to return them to me at once because we are 
completely sold out of reserve tickets — 

And so forth, and it is signed "yours truly, J. Wheeler HUl." 

Mr. Starxes. "\^^lat is the purpose of that? 

Mr. Matthews. The witness has testified that Mr. Edward James 
Smj^the has never in any way worked with the German-American 
Bund. This letter establishes the fact that he has done so. 

Mr. KrxzE. So far as I know, Dr. Matthews 

Mr. Matthews. And Mr. Edward James Smythe was the principal 
speaker for the newspaper at Camp Nordland and announced as one of 
the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan for the State of New Jersey. 

Mr. Starxes. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. There are several other letters of the same tenor, 
Mr. Chairman, which establishes the connection between Edward 
James Smythe and the German- American Bund. 

I ask your pleasure with reference to them. Shall 1 ask the witness 
to identify them also? 

Mr. Starnes. If he can identify them — if they are similar to the 
others. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a pencil signature of Mr. J. Wheeler Hill. 
Do you recognize that, Mr. Kunze? 

Air. KuxzE. It may have been. I could not swear to someone 
else's signature. 

Air. AIatthews. If you received a letter with that signature on it 
you would not have any doubt about its authenticity, would you? 

Air. KuxzE. It would not help me in a court of law. 

Air. AIatthews. You are not in a court of law now. Do you 
recognize that signature as that of James Wheeler Hill? 

This letter is dated March 9, 1939, and addressed to Mr. Smythe and 
signed "James \\lieeler Hill." This one is dated February 14, 1939, 
addressed to Air. Smythe and signed by James Wheeler Hill. Do you 
pick out any one of these signatures as more nearh^ resembling Mr. 
James ^Yheeler Hiil's signature than the other two. 



't5^ 



8282 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. KuNZE. I don't know his signature well enough to say which of 
the three would resemble it most. I did say that I can't identify any 
one of the three as definitely being his signature. 

Mr. Matthews. But you have seen the signature frequently, 
haven't you? 

Mr. KuNZE. Once in a while. There is a certain similarit}^ between 
all three. They may be his and they may not be his. I do not know. 

Mr. Matthews. And that is despite counsel's statement ''they are 
totally different." 

Mr. Starnes. The first letter is received in evidence because he 
stated it did resemble his signature and in his best judgment it was. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the letter of February 3. 

(The letter referred to was marked "Kunze Exhibit No. 1.") 

Mr. Matthews. I have no more questions. 

Mr. Starnes. An}^ further questions, Mr. Voorhis? 

Mr. Voorhis. One question. Mr. Kunze, are you acquainted with 
Herr von Speigel, the German consul in New Orleans? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. You are not? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. Have you ever met with any of the German consuls 
in America? 

Mr. Kunze. I have met several of them at affairs at which they 
have been guests. 

Mr. Voorhis. And where you have also been present? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. What were those occasions — what sort of occasions? 

Mr. Kunze. I have seen the German consul general at affairs in 
New York City — some German day celebration or something of that 
kind or at the Christmas market. I have been introduced to him 
when the occasion happened to require it. I have seen the consul 
general on the west coast on one occasion at some aft'air of the bund 
out there, but in each case it was a matter of being introduced and 
that was all. 

Mr. Voorhis. Have you ever visited in any of the embassies? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. You have never been to an embassy? 

Mr. Kunze. Yes; I have been there once. I have been down- 
town at the consulate general's office with Mr. Keegan on one occasion 
but we didn't speak to the consul. 

Mr. Matthews. \Vliy did you go there — why did you visit the 
embassv? 

Mr. Voorhis. My question was mth reference to the German 
Embassv in Washington. 

Mr. Kunze. I have had no dealings at the German Embassy. 

Mr. Voorhis. You never have been there? 

Mr. Kunze. I have been at that building on one occasion several 
years aeio, I believe. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you recall what year it was? 

Mr. Kunze. I believe it was in 1938 while I was visiting Wash- 
ington, D. C, in the early part of the year. 

Mr. Voorhis. What was your business there? 

Mr. Kunze. None whatever. They were simply showing it to 
me, that was all — people I knew in Washington were showing me 
the German Embassy. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8283 

Mr. VooRHis. You did not talk to nnyhody while you wore in there? 

Mr. KuNZE. To some subordinate in the olliee, just to say "how do 
jou do." 

Mr. Voouiiis. Did you visit other embassies? 

Mr. KuNZE. No, sir; we drove by others. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Kunze, what bank or banks in New York City 
does the German-Ameriean Bund do business with? 

Mr. Kunze. The German-American Bund uses the Manufacturers 
Trust Co. 

Mr. Thomas. Any other bank in New York? 

Mr. Kunze. Perhaps the local unit does. I don't know about that. 
The national organization does not. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you meet a man by the name of Gerrard Wescott 
w^hen he was visiting here? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir; I don't know the gentleman. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't know him? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Never met him? 

Mr. Kunze. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Air. Starnes. That is all. We see no reason for holding this witness 
any further so you are excused from the process of the committee. 

The other witnesses who are present in the committee room at this 
time please return tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. 

It is the intention of the committee to resume its public hearings at 
9 o'clock tomorrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 4:35 p. m., the public hearing was adjourned until 
9 a. m., Wednesdav, October 2, 1940.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN PEOPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



OCTOBER 2, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee 

TO Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Newark, N. J. 
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Joe Starnes (chairmaB> 
presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Starnes (chairman), Voorhis, and Thomas. Also- 
present: R. E. Striphng, chief investigator; Robert B. Barker, 
investigator. 

Mr. Starnes. The hearing wih come to order. 
Mr. Khipprott, will you take the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF AUGUST KLAPPROTT, EASTERN DEPARTMENT 
LEADER, GERMAN-AMERICAN BUND 

(The witness was^aecompanied by his attorney, Wilbur V. Keogan.) 

Mr. Starnes. Will you please stand and raise your right hand. 
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are going to give will 
be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Let the record show Mr. Klapprott is represented by 
his counsel, Mr. Keegan. 

Give us your full name if you please? 

Mr. Klapprott. August Klapprott. 

Mr. Starnes. ^Vliat is your address? 

Mr. Klapprott.^ My address is Nordland, R. F. D. No. 1, Newton. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your business or profession? 

Mr. Klapprott. I now work for the German-American Bund. 

Mr. Starnes. You work for the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. How long have you worked for the German-American 
Bund as a business or for a living? 

Mr. Klapprott. J'rom January 15 of this year. 

Mr. Starnes. \Miat was your occupation prior to that time? 

Mr. Klapprott. I ran a business in Nordland. 

Mr. Starnes. What kind of a business? 

Mr. Klapprott. Restaurant business. 

Air. Starnes. How many years did you operate that business? 

Mr. Klapprott. From May 1937 to the first of January 1940. 

8285 



5286 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Where were you born? 

Mr. Klapprott. Where? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; where? 

Mr. Klapprott. In Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. When? 

Mr. Klapprott. Septem])er 4, 1906. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you come to the United States first? 

Mr. Klapprott. September 1927. 

Mr. Starnes. Are you a naturalized citizen? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Wlien did j^ou become natui-aHzed? 

Mr. Klapprott. In the spring- of 1934. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliere? 

Mr. Klapprott. In Hackensack Courthouse. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you been back to Germany since 1927? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What profession did you follow — what work did you 
follow when you first came to America in 1927? 

Mr. Klapprott. Bricklayer — mason. 

Mr. Starnes. For how long? 

Mr. Klapprott. Up to the time when I started the business in 
Nordland . 

Mr. Starnes. Did you follow that trade from 1927 to 1937 — 10 
years? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. You have lived in New Jersey all the while? 

Mr. Klapprott. All the while; yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you been back to Germany at all since 1927? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you join the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. When it was founded in 1936. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you a member of the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes; for 2 years. 

Mr. Starnes. '34 and '35? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you belong to the Teutonic Society or any other 
German society prior to the time you joined the Friends of New 
Germany? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Why did you join the bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. To fight the boycott of German goods and German 
people in America. 

Mr. Starnes. To fight the boycott of German goods and people in 
America? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Was there any other reason for your joining the bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. That was my reason for joining the bund. 

Mr. Starnes. That is what I want to get. What was your reason 
— that was your reason — was that one of the purposes of the bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. It was already from the Friends of New Ger- 
many — the purpose of the Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. It was one of the purposes? Well, did the Bund 
assume that obligation or aim or purpose as a part of its program? 



UN-AMERICAN PROl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8287 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, what was the other part of the program of the 
build? In other words, what were its aims and purposes? It has 
something else to do other than light agahist a boycott, against 
German citizens and German goods? 

Air. Klapprott. To organize politically to combat such movements. 

Air. Starnes. In other words, it was a political organization? 

Air. Klapprott. Oh, yes. 

Air. Starnes. That was its concept? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes. 

Air. Starnes. Was the purpose of the bund to establish a separate 
political party to provide political representation for the German 
citizens of German birth or was the purpose of the bund to support 
the Republican Party or Democratic Party, the Communist Party or 
some other political party in this country? 

Air. Klapprott. As I understand the bund always — we never tried 
to be a separate party but we also never were Republicans or Demo- 
crats. We always voted and let the people know for whom we thought 
would be the right man to vote for. You see we were never a party — 
true to any party. 

Air. Starnes. The reason I asked that question is that I have the 
impression and the committee has the impression from testimony of 
Air. Kuhn and other leaders of the bund, that it was for the purpose 
of establishing a political party to give representation to what they 
alleged to be a persecuted minority m this country who are not given 
proper political recognition or equal rights, politically, in this country. 

\\Tiat is your concept of it? Was that your conception of the bund? 

Air. Klapprott. It was not my conception at all to form a political 
party — never was. 

Air. Starnes. What is your position in the bmid? 

Air. Klapprott. I am the eastern department leader. 

Air. Starnes. You are the eastern department leader of the 
German-American Bund? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Air. Starnes. How many States does that cover? 

Air. Klapprott. The eastern seaboard States. 

Air. Starnes. The eastern seaboard States from Alaine to Florida? 

Air. Klapprott. Right. 

Air. Starnes. How far inland does it extend? 

Air. Kl.\pprott. Up to West Virginia. 

Air. Starnes. Let us see if we can get the geographical limits 
clearly fixed. You take in all of the New England States? 

Air. Klapprott. Right. 

Air. Starnes. New York? 

Air. Klapprott. (No answer.) 

Air. Starnes. Pennsylvania? 

Air. Klapprott. Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, West Vu"- 
ginia, North Carolina. 

Air. Starnes. Virginia? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes. 

Air. Starnes. Alaryland? 

Air. Klapprott. Alaryland and South Carolina. 

Air. Starnes. Georgia? 

Air. Klapprott. Georgia and Florida. 

62626—41 — vol. 14 9 



8288 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Staenes. How many local units — I am not asking you about 
the members, but how many local units do you have in your area? 

Mr. Klapprott. About 20. 

Mr. Starnes. How many of them are located in the New England 
area? 

Mr. Klapprott. There are none at all. 

Mr. Starnes. None at all in the New England area. How many 
in New York State and the city, of course? 

Mr. Klapprott. City and State, you say? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Klapprott. About 10. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in New Jersey? 

Mr. Klapprott. Fom-. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in Pennsylvania? 

Mr. Klapprott. Only one just now. 

Mr. Starnes. How many in Delaware? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. In Maiyland? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. West Virginia? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. In Virginia — the State of Virginia? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. In Washington, D. C? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. North Carolina? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. South Carolina? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. Georgia? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. Florida? 

Mr. Klapprott. None. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, you have given us — you say there 
are approximately 20 posts but you have only located here for us 15 
in your area. Have we overlooked any States? 

Mr, Klapprott. (No answer). 

Mr. Starnes. Do you mean to say you do not have any bund 
units, local units, in Massachusetts any more? 

Mr. Klapprott. No; you see they are only small groups which are 
not units. They are called branches. 

Mr. Starnes. What would you say the approximate membership 
is in your area? You have 15 local units that you have established 
for us, 10 in New York City and State and 4 in New Jersey and 1 in 
Pennsylvania. That is 15. 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I couldn't tell you exactly. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, you can give us an approximation; I am not 
asking you the exact number. I am not saying 999 and 1,001 or 
anything like that, but approximately how many? Would you say 
there are as many as 500? 

Mr. Klapprott. There are more than that. 

Mr. Starnes. Are there 1,000 in these 15 units? 

Mr. Klapprott. About 500 in New Jersey, I know. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8289 

Mr. Starnes. About 500 in New Jersey. Now, that is getting 
somewhere. How many would you say in Pennsylvania? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know exacth', 150 or something. 

Mr. Starnes. Then what would you say for the 10 units in New 
York State and eity? 

Mr. Klapprott. Maybe they comprise about 5,000. 

Mr. Starnes. There are probably more in New York City and 
State than any other section of the country, of course, because of the 
population and because it is along the eastern seaboard. 

^Ir. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat are the dues that the members are required to 
pay? 

^Ir. Klapprott. One dollar a month. 

Mr. Starnes. How is that distributed? How is that allocated? 
Is it so much for the national organization and so much for the local 
organization? That is what I mean. How do 3^ou distribute that? 

Mr. Klapprott. Sixty cents goes to the national headquarters. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have State headquarters? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You have what you call district headquarters. 
How much is allocated of that dollar to the district headquarters? 

Mr. Kl.apprott. None at all. 

Air. Starnes. How much to the local unit? In other words, 60 
cents goes to the national headquarters, to Mr. Kunze or the national 
treasurer or secretary. Who are those dues paid over to? To the 
secretary or to the treasurer? 

Mr. Klapprott. To the treasurer. 

Mr. Starnes. And the other 40 cents is retained by the local unit? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes; by the local unit. 

Mr. Starnes. How is that money expended — for what general 
purposes? 

Mr. Klapprott. For the expense of the national office. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat does that consist of? Traveling expenses, 
telephone and postage? 

Mr. Klapprott. Rent. 

Mr. Starnes. Rent for the office of the organization? 

Mr. Klapprott. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. The witness nodded his head. 

What else is the money used for? To carry on the political program 
of the bimd? 

Mr. Klapprott. Fees for counsel and those who have to work in 
the office, you know, w^eekly wages. 

Mr. VooRHis. How much do you spend for counsel fees? 

Mr. Klapprott. We spent a fortune already. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, do you make any contributions to any 
political parties or do you carry on or finance your political activities 
and carry it along the lines you suggested a moment ago? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't remember that we ever financed any- 
thing else but our own. 

Mr. Starnes. But your own? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 



8290 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Have you ever sent any of that money out of this 
country? 

Mr. Klapprott. Not that I know. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know how the money was raised that Mr. 
Kuhn testifii^d that he carried to Germany with him? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I only know I gave a dollar to that. 

Mr. Starnes. You gave a dollar to that, too? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. It is an organization that calls foi- frequent contri- 
butions of dollars and other amounts, is that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, how else could we exist? 

Mr. Starnes. Do you solicit funds from indivichmls who might 
be sympathetic to your program in addition to the dues that you 
assess your members? 

Mr. Klapprott. Occasionally; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You receive considerable amounts or money in that 
respect? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, that is not a question I could answer properly. 
You should ask the treasurer. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, all right, have you ever solicited any one out- 
side of the bund for money? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, years ago. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you been successful in obtaining money out- 
side of the membership of the bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. Oh, I remember I had $10 on the list once, or 
something like that. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that the largest contribution you received? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is all outside of the bund. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you attend a joint meeting of the bund and the 
Ku Klux Klan and the Protestant War Veterans of America at Nord- 
land on August 18th? 

Mr. Klapprott. I was at the meeting but I don't consider it a joint 
meeting. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, let us see who were there. There were bund 
members there? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And this was on bund property? 

Mr. Klapprott. It was the German-American Bund Auxiliary 
property. 

Mr. Starnes. And the trustet^s of that auxiliary are all bund 
members? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And you were present on that occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. And you presided at the meeting? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, you made some remarks on that occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right. 

Mr. Starnes. You s])oke in the morning, didn't you, and then 
•didn't you speak again in the evening? You spoke twice on that 
date there in Camp Nordland? 



UX-AMERICAN PHOrAGANDA ACTIVITIES §291 

Mr. Klai'pi{Ott. Yes; in the aftonioon I welcoinod the ^niests there 
jiiul tlie ineiiibers and friends of the KUui and that is all I (\'u\. 

Mr. Staknes. You welcomed your guests? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is riijlit. 

Mr. Starnes. There were hund members present there that day, 
of course? 

Mr. Klapprott. I suppose there were. 

Mr. Starnes. Quite a number? 

Mr. Klapprott. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. And there were klansmen present? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. By invitation? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, the day was advertised all right. 

Mr. Starnes. It was what? 

Mr. Klapprott. Advertised. 

Mr. Starnes. It was advertised, yes, but the\- came there as an 
organization and the Klan officials spoke. there that (hiy on invitation^ 
isn't that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. No ; that day they entered the grounds 

Mr. Starnes. Well, the night. When I speak of "that day" or 
"date" I mean the day and night of August 18th. I am trying to 
determine what occurred there on that day. Klan officials were 
present and spoke there on that occasion, isn't that correct? On that 
date Klan officials came there and spoke on that date? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes; but they had the grounds rented from the 
German-American Bund Auxiliary for that day. In the afternoon 
before they started. 

Mr. Starnes. There was a speaker there for the Protestant War 
Veterans of America also, wasn't there? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes; you refer to Mr. Smythe. 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. Did they have the ground rented for that 
occasion also? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Just the Klan rented the gromid? 

Air. Klapprott. Just the Klan; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. With whom did the Klan make that arrangement? 
With the board of trustees or with you? 

Mr. Klapprott. AVith me personally. 

Mr. Starnes. With you personally? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you invite them or did you initiate it? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. The program? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. That led to the events of that day? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Or did they initiate tlu^ program? 

Mr. Klapprott. I first got a telephone call from Dr. Young. 

Mr. Starnes. And he was the 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, he called himself Kleagle of the Klan. 

Mr. Starnes. National kleagle or State kleagle or what? 



8292 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Klapprott. State kleagle. 

Mr. Starnes. Go ahead. Did Dr. Young speak that day? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sh\ 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chah-man, let him develop how the arrange- 
ments were made for the renting of the gromids. 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; go ahead and tell us how that was done. 

Mr. Klapprott. Dr. Young called me up and said: "I heard so 
much of your place and we were looking for a place to hold a meeting. 
"Wliile it is hard for us to get a place we thought we would call you 
because we want to try you out and see whether you are Americans 
or not." 

He told me that, and he said: "Couldn't we arrange some day so 
you would give us the place for a day to have a meetmg for the Klan 
at your place?" 

I said over the phone, I said: "For that special purpose we would 
have to come together once and talk this thing over." 

"Of course," they said, "we will get a couple of thousand people to 
go for the meeting." 

After all 1 figured Camp Nordland was hit hard by all this propa- 
ganda against the place and the boys from the newspapers did their 
best to chase the people away and, of course, I welcomed the idea. 
Then we made arrangements — we made a contract signed by the Klan 
and signed by me as a representative of the German-American Bund 
Auxiliary, for this August 18 to have an Americanization rally there. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you a copy of that contract with you? 

Mr. Klapprott. I haven't got one with me; no. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have a copy of it? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know. 1 could look for it. I think I have 
it in my files. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you submit a copy to the committee? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, I would also like to know how much rent was 
paid to the bund auxiliary for the use of the camp that day? 

Mr. Klapprott. There was no rent paid at all. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. Go ahead or have you finished with your statement 
as to what occurred and how the trade was made? 

Mr. Klapprott. I think I did explain everything. 

Mr. Starnes. Did I understand you to say a moment ago that Dr. 
Young, in the course of that conversation, said the pm'poses or aims 
of your organizations were the same, or that you were working toward 
the same goal? 

Mr. Klapprott. When? 

Mr. Starnes. In arranging your meeting and the use of the 
grounds. 

Mr. Klapprott. No; Dr. Young said to me: "We want to try out 
whether you are Americans and for that reason we will come up to 
Camp Nordland." 

I told him: "I am a good American and you can come any time." 

Mr. Starnes. That is what I wanted to clear up. I did not under- 
stand what vou said about that. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAG.VNDA ACTIVITIES 8293 

Mr. Klapprott. I also told Dr. Young: and others from the Klan, 
that any other oro;anization could rent the place too for a day. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you say they didn't pay any rent? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. VooRHis. They rented it but they paid no rent, is that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. They don't have to pay rent if 
the people come there and eat in the place. That keeps the place up. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know wliat was in 
that contnict. 

Mr. Keegan. I am going to deliver a copy for the committee, 
Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all right; but maybe the witness would like 
to tell us now some of the things that are in the contract. You say, 
Mr. Ivlapprott, you had a contract? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right. 

Air. Thomas. Now, what was in this contract? There is nothing 
in there about rent, so what was it? 

Mr. Klapprott. I only said that they would have the site where 
the open air platform is; that they would hold their meetings there 
and that we couldn't interfere with that part, but that we could have 
our restaurant as usual running for the occasion and that we would 
take the 25 cent parking fee and that they were allowed to make a 
collection for their Klan's treasury. That was in the contract. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, I want to ask you some further questions 
about the meeting. Was the press present on that occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. The press? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Were they permitted free range and freedom hi 
action in going where they pleased and taking pictures as they pleased 
and questioning people as they pleased? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't think so. 

Mr. Starnes. How were they treated on that occasion and how 
were they cared for on that occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, as much as I noticed they were taken into 
place and let out of the place. 

Mr. Starnes. They were taken in and let out? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Were they kept under close surveillance or guard 
during the time they were in there? 

Mr. Klapprott. They were. 

Mr. Starnes. Were they told where they could go and where they 
couldn't go? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I didn't tell them anything but I guess that 
is about it. 

Mr. Starnes. That is about correct? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not tell them what they could write and 
couldn't write? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, they do that any way — they write what 
they please. 



8294 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. On that occasion did any of the speakers did 

you hear the speakers on that occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. Not all of them, 

Mr. Starnes. Did you hear Dr. Young? 

Mr. Klapprott. In the evening; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you hear Mr. Smythe? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Did any of the speakers on that occasion make 
reference to the fact that there was a minority in this country who 
controlled it? 

Mr. Klapprott. I didn't say so. 

Mr. Starnes. I know, but didn't somebody else say that on that 
occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I couldn't remember exactly what every- 
body said. 

Mr. Starnes. Wasn't something said like that by the speakers 
present, which includes, of course, Dr. Young and others. Wasn't 
that said a time or two? Probably you might have said something 
about it, not all of this, but you and other speakers in substance said 
that you could discuss in this country and talk any way you wanted 
to about all nationalities and groups of different nationalities and 
racial groups save one, but there was one minority group in this 
country that you could not talk about without fear of prosecution or 
persecution? Mr. Klapprott, was something said like that on that 
occasion? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, if it was said then why don't you ask the 
fellow who said it? 

Mr. Starnes. Well, I am asking you. I am asking you if in the 
course of your remarks you didn't make some reference to a certain 
racial minority in this coimtry — you did not call any names, but you 
spoke of a certain racial minority in this country? 

Mr. Klapprott. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't it a fact you made some reference, without 
calling names, that there was a certain racial minority in this country? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I said: ''If you are fellow Americans and 
staying out of this w^ar and you are like Lindbergh, in fact neutral, 
then you will be called a fifth columnist" by a certain minority in 
America. That is what I said. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, now, did you say anything about a certain 
minority in this country controlling the press? 

Mr. Klapprott. And it is still my belief to a certain extent. 

Mr. Starnes. You believe there is a certain minority in this 
country that controls the press? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And a certain minority in this country that controls 
the moving-picture industry? 

Mr. Klapprott. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. That is your belief? 

Mr. Klapprott. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And it is your belief that there is a certain minority 
in this country that controls the Government of the United States? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8295 

Mr. Klappkott. To a certain extent. 

Mr. Staknes. Now, that was the theme song generally of yourself 
and of the speakers on that occasion, was it not? 

Mr. Klapi'rott. That is and should be the theme song for every 
American today. 

Mr. Starnes. That may be your opinion. You are not responsive 
to the ciuestion. 1 asked you if that wasn't the theme song on that 
occasion among those who called themselves Americans — wasn't 
that youi' theme song? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I suppose it was. 

Mr. Starnes. There is a dance hall out there and a large restaurant 
at Camp Nordland; is that right? 

Mr, Klapprott. Yes; but on the other side of the hill. It is in the 
front right where you come in. 

Mr. Starnes. It is at Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, on that date isn't it a fact there was a large 
picture of Herr Hitler suspended there in that restaurant or dance 
hall? 

]Mr. Klapprott. You say whether that picture is still there? 

Mr. Starnes. No, if it wasn't there on that date. 

Mr. Klapprott. It wasn't there on that date. 

Mr. Starnes. It wasn't there? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. It has hung there? 

Mr. Klapprott. But it wasn't taken down just because of that 
date. 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't it a fact there was a picture of Herr Hitler 
suspended there on that date, either from the roof or on the walls of 
that building? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And there was a slogan, a printed slogan of some 
tvpe or character which said, "One Spirit, One Bund, and One 
Leader"? 

Mr. Thomas. You better refresh your memor}". 

Mr. Klapprott. That was last year. 

Mr. Starnes. But it was out there? 

Mr. Klapprott. It was last year out of there; yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. When was the last time the picture of Hitler was 
up there? Wlien was the last day, according to your best recollection, 
that the picture of Hitler was there? 

Mr. Klapprott. About the 4th of July of this year. 

Mr. Tho.mas. Was it up there on the 4th of July? 

Mr. Klapprott. I think it was. 

Mr. Thomas. Was it up there on August 18 of this year? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. ThOiMas. Why did you say then it was last year when it was up 
there and not this year? It was actually up there this year, wasn't it? 

Wasn't the slogan up there on July 4 of this year? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. You are positive of that? 



8296 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir; I am positive of that. 

Mr. Thomas. You say you are positive on that? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes; I think I am positive on that. 

Mr. Thomas. But the picture of Herr Hitler was up there on 
July 4 of this year? 

Mr. Klapprott. I think so. 

Mr. Thomas. On the other side of the hall was a small picture of 
George Washington? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right. 

Mr. Thomas. Was there a picture of the President up there? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes; on the other side of the hall near the bar 
was a picture of the President. 

Mr. Thomas. A picture of President Roosevelt near the bar? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You are positive on July 4 there was a picture of 
President Roosevelt there? 

Mr. Klapprott. I am not certain of that, 

Mr. Starnes. Now, to get this literally, the slogan translated is 
"One Racial Ancestry, One Society, One Leader," is that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right, for America. 

Mr. Starnes. For America? 

Mr. Klapprott. In America. That hasn't anything to do with 

Mr. Starnes. You haven't got there — you haven't got that on 
there though: "Ein Folkstom, Ein Bund, Ein Fuehi-er"? 

Mr. Klapprott. That means one people. 

Mr. VooRHis. I miderstand that, but who would the one leader be 
if it was for America? 

Mr. Klapprott. One leadership of German-Americans because we 
have thousands of Germans and thousands of different groups and 
everyone wants to be the biggest one, so we say "you are one people, 
why haven't we got one organization under one leadership and you 
get some places." 

Mr.TnoMAS. What leadership would that be? 

Mr. Klapprott. That would be ourselves. 

Mr. VooRHis. You said you would get some place. I wonder 
where that would be? 

Mr. Klapprott. You would get political recognition and you 
would not be thrown out of your jobs and you wouldn't be a second- 
class citizen in this country. 

Mr. Starnes. Was anything said on that occasion about certain 
racial minorities in this country being human insects? 

Mr. Klapprott. I didn't hear anythmg like that. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Klapprott, the purpose of the bund is to try to 
get all the Americans of German descent into one organization, if 
possible, isn't that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. Right. 

Mr. VooRHis. About how many Americans of German descent are 
there in the United States today? Do you estimate 15,000,000 or 
maybe more? 

Mr. Klapprott. Of German descent? 



UN-AMEKIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8297 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes; how many people do you consider would be 
eligible to membership in the bund under those terms and under that 
slogan? 

Mr. Klapprott. Twenty million. 

Mr. VooRHis. How many members have you now? 

Mr. Klapprott. Mr. Kunze stated yesterday 

Mr. VooRHis. And you agree with his figures, which I believe were 
10,000?^ 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Suppose you got all the 20,000,000 into one organi- 
zation would you expect to dominate the other people of the United 
States by that means? 

Mr. Klapprott. We never want to dominate anything. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you easily could, coiddn't you? 

Mr. Klapprott. We could if we would have it today — we could 
keep this country out of war. 

Mr. VooRHis. That isn't what I am asking about. I was asking 
you about the domination of the United States, whether you could 
not dominate the United States if you had all the 20,000,000 German- 
Americans in one organization and under one leadership. 

Mr. Klapprott. Well; how could we when there are 130,000,000 
or 110,000,000 people in the country? 

Mr. VooRHis. They are not organized like that, none of them? 

Mr. Klapprott. The}'^ are. 

Mr. VooRHis. And that is the most important point about this 
whole inquiry. Now, you spoke about a boj^cott. Can you give me 
one instance of a boycott against people because they were Germans — 
not because they are members of the bund or some organization, but 
because they are Germans, which occurred prior to tlie time of the 
organization of the Friends of New Germany in 1934? 

Mr. Klapprott. (No answer.) 

Mr. VooRHis. Or before 1936, for that matter, of a boycott. 

Mr. Klapprott. When the Anti-Nazi League 

Mr. VooRHis. That was organized in 1937? 

Mr. Klapprott. Or the boycott committee of Mr. Unternieyer 
brought out the first pamphlets. The}^ printed all the firms' names 
who imported German goods. 

Mr. VooRHis. When was that done? 

Mr. Kl.\pprott. That was in 1933 ah-eady, and today they still 
give those pamphlets out where those firms are named and they still 
say as m 1933, that the boycott is the moral substitute of war. In 
other words, these pamphlets are in war with Germany since 1933. 

Mr. VooRHis. Was that movement organized in 1933, Mr. Klapp- 
rott? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir; it was organized in 1933. 

Mr. VooRHLS. Has your organization ever conducted any boycott 
against anybody? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Are you sure? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, we are self-protecting. 

Mr. VooRHis. Are vou sure it never has? 



8298 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Klappkott. We never advocated anv bovcott ao-ainst anvoiie 
se. 

Mr VooRHis. Not against any German citizens who did not co- 
operate with the bund? I don't mean German citizens, I mean 
German-Americans that did not cooperate witli the bund? You never 
bo^vcotted one of tliose? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Nor you never advocated a boycott against any 
•other group of people? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. You are sure of that? 

Air Klapprott. But we wanted to protect ourselves. 

Mr. VooRHis. Is the membership of the bund, Mr. Klapprott, 
composed of American citizens? 

Mr Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Entirely? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes. sir. 

Air. Voorhis. Is that a rule of the buud? 

Air. Klapprott. It is a rule. 

Air. Voorhis. And yet yesterday Air. Kunze testified that the 
leader on the west coast is not a citizen. 

Now, as I understand Air. Klapprott's testunony, every single 
member of the German-American Bund is a citizen of the United 
States, is that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir; that is right. 

Air. Starnes. Alay I interpose here for a moment? 

Air. Voorhis. Yes. 

Air. Starnes. When did that rule go into force and effect? 

Mr. Klapprott. When the bund was formed from the Friends of 
New Gennany, in the national convention in 1936 in Buffalo, N. Y. 

Mr. Starnes. And since 1936 you have had no ahens in the bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Since that date you have not accepted anybody for 
membership who is not an American citizen? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 

Air. Starnes. Is that correct? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. Air. Klapprott, what is the relationship between your 
organization and the Deutscher Konsum Verband? Is there any con- 
nection between the two? 

Mr. Klapprott. Insofar as the German-American Bund is buying 
from those people and supports them. 

Mr. Voorhis. Is this an affiliate of the German-American Bund or a 
subsidiary of the German -American Bund? 

Mr. Klapprott. I would not want to say whether it is an affiliate 
or subsidiary. I don't know. It is strictly a business matter; but it 
is supported by the German- American Bund. 

Mr. Voorhis. In other words if a store or somebody like that did 
not cooperate with the work of the bund they probably wouldn't have 
their name in there, is that right? 

Mr. Klapprott. I would not say that, no. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8299 

Mr. \c)c)Riiis. Isn't that llie case? 

Mr. Klai'I'Kott. If a businessman cares to have the l)usiness and 
support from members and sympathizers of th(> Germ an -Am eric an 
Bund then he puts his name in tliere. 

Mr. \'ooKnis. Just one or tAvo more (luesLit)ns. Have you in tlie 
bund withni the last year we will say, have you hatl any organization 
within the bund which carried on various types of military (h-ills and 
disciplinary activities at one time or another within the last 12 
months? 

Air. Klappeott. \^'ell, -we have the order division but tliey ar(^ not 
on militarv duty, as you call it. 

Mr. \ ooimis. Aren't they under military type of discipline? Don't 
they have duties that are very similai-, to say the least, to military 
duties? 

Mr. IvLAPPROTr. No. 

Mr. VooRHis. That might be a matter of opinion, might it not? 

Mr. Klapprott. 1 don't want to quarrel with your ideas. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is all right, we will let it go at that. 

Would you rent Camp Nordland to any group of loyal American 
citizens that asked for it on the same basis you rented it to the Klan? 

Mr. Klapprott. I think I would. 

Mr. Yoorhis. You would? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes. 

Air. Thomas. Alay I ask a question there? 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes. 

Air. Thomas. I would like to know Air. Klapprott, whether yoir 
would rent Camp Nordland to Jewish war veterans? 

Air. Klapprott. Yes; and when I say "yes" I mean it. 

Air. VooRHis. Air. Klapprott, have there been any changes in the 
tactics pursued by the bund with regard to the Communist Party 
since August of 1939? 

Air. Klapprott. I don't thiid< so. 

Air. VooRHis. You would know, wouldn't you? 

Air. Klapprott. Any changes? The changes may have been that 
the Communists don't attack us so much any more as they did, and as 
we are always on the defensive we only hit back those who attack us. 

Air. VooRHLs. Well, I wasn't asking you what somebody else did. 
I asked what your tactics were about the matter. Have your tactics 
changed any? 

Air. Klapprott. The tactics again-st or about what? 

Air. Yoorhls. The Communist Party or Communist groups wher- 
ever you find them. 

Air. Klapprott. We fought communism already from childhood up 
and I don t think I changed my idea about communism. 

Mr. VooRHis. I did not ask you whether you changed your attitude. 
1 asked you whether the tactics of the German-Annu'ican Bund with 
regard to the Comnnunsts aiul Comnuniist groups have cliangedi 
since August 1939. Now. have they or have they not? 

Air. Klapprott. 1 don't think so — i don't see any change. 

Air. Yoorhis. But you would know whether they had or not. 



8300 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Klapprott. Still fight the same Communist enemies as we 
did from the beginning. 

Mr. Starnes. But in this country you don't have the actual physical 
combat between groups of bundsmen and its sympathizers, with the 
Communists that you once had? 

Mr. Klapprott. We never tried to physically combat communism. 

Mr. Starnes. You never had any physical contact at all with 
Communists in this country? 

Mr. Klapprott. Oh, yes; but not that we went to the Communists; 
the Communists came to us. 

Mr. Starnes. Then that tactic has changed? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, they don't come any more, that is right. 

Mr. Starnes. I say, they don't come any more? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. They don't attack us any more 
bodily. 

Mr. Starnes. And therefore you don't defend yourselves any more 
by hitting them back? 

Mr. Klapprott. How could we? How could we if we go to their 
meetings? That would be un-American. If we go to somebody 
else's meeting we are un-American and that is no good. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean to say the members of the bund never 
went to other people's meetings? 

Mr. Klapprott. Never did, 

Mr. VooRHis. They did not? 

Mr. Klapprott. They never did. 

Mr. Starnes. Let me ask you this as one of the leaders of the 
bund: Have you sought during the past 12 months, or since you have 
been giving your time solely and wholly to the bund, have you sought 
the cooperation of other groups of American citizens — I will say 
other racial stocks or groups who do not feature race as a part of 
their program? In other words, have you sought any agreement 
with the Klan or the Protestant War Veterans of America and groups 
of that type and character? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you sought to find a leader in common with 
other groups in this country? Have you been seeking for a leader 
during the past 12 months? That was testified to by bund leaders 
last year. They testified having talked to certain American citizens 
and meeting with certain groups of American citizens and approaching 
distinguished Army officers and- other men with a view to obtaining 
someone for that leadership? 

Mr. Klapprott. I never did. 

Mr. Starnes. I am not asking you if you did. I am askmg you is 
it the policy of the bund any longer to do that? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I don't know anything about that, no. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not attend any of the meetings that Mr. 
Kuhn and others testified about last year, that were held here in 
Newark and New York area and along the Pacific coast, m which 
they were seeking a union of forces in this country who had the 
same ideals? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know anything about those. 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8301 

Mr. Starnes. You don't know anything about that? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, Mr. Thomas. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Klapprott, who are the trustees of Camn 
Nordland? ^ 

Mr. Klapprott. Those trustees are all filed with the State clerk 
in Trenton. 

Mr. Thomas. That may be so but I am asking you now who the 
trustees are. 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I wish to state that in confidence to you; 
otherwise these people are smeared through the press again. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, if it is filed in Trenton it is public anyway, 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, let them look them up. 

Mr. Thomas. Nevertheless they are smeared or not smeared 

Mr. Starnes. That is a pertinent inquiry and you will have to 
answer the question. Those articles are on file and are a part of the 
public record. Any citizen of America can go into the repository 
where these papers are kept and ascertain who they are. That same 
privilege is open to the press if they wanted that information. 

Mr. VooRHis. My impression is that the names are in the record 
as of yesterday. 

Mr. Starnes. They are. 

Mr. Thomas. Not exactly. 

Mr. Starnes. All but two were identified yesterday. I read the 
list to Mr. Kunze yesterday and he identified either four or five. 
You can ask him about the list if you have the list there and you may 
question him about it. 

Mr. Thomas. Is Walter Kohler a trustee? 

Mr. Klapprott. Mathias Kohler, 

Mr. Thomas. Is Richard Schiele a trustee? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Is Carl Schipphorst a trustee? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Klapprott, now who are the owners of the cot- 
tages at Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Klapprott. I decline from telling here in this court the names 
just so they can be published in the newspapers again, who the owners 
of those cottages are. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you submit a list to the committee of the owners 
of the cottages? 

Mr. Klapprott. If you promise to keep them secret. 

Mr. Thomas. Never mind any promises. I want to know whether 
you will submit a list or not. 

Mr, Keegan. I think if the chairman will guarantee against unfair 
publication of the list. 

Mr. Starnes. If you will submit a list of those for the committee's 
files that will be sufficient. 

Mr. Keegan. Thank you. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Klapprott, what was the revenue of Camp Nord- 
land in 1938? 



8302 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Klapprott. You mean the gross income? 

Mr. Thomas. Receipts, gross income; yes. 

Mr. Klapprott. For tlie camp or for the business, you mean? 

Mr. Thomas. Well, I mean — I don't know the exact difference 
between the business and the camp, but I mean the revenue taken 
in at Camp Nordland — receipts from the sale of beverages and all 
that sort of thmg. 

Mr. IvLAPPROTT. About $40,000 plus. 

Mr. Thomas. \Vliat do you estimate to be the revenue of Camp 
Nordland in 1940? 

Mr. Klapprott. Must have been for the camp, four or five thou- 
sand, that is about all. 

Mr. Thomas. So in 1938 it was approximately $40,000 and now it 
is approximately $4,000 or $5,000? 

Mr. Klapprott. (No answer.) 

Mr. Thomas. Have you ever been to the German-American camp 
at Midvale — I have just forgotten the name of it. 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you attended meetings at any other German- 
American camps in New Jersey? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You said before you had four units in New Jersey? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you tell the committee where the locations of 
those four units are? 

Mr. Klapprott. In Newark, Hudson County. 

Mr. Thomas. Wliat is the address m Newark? 

Mr. Klapprott. They have no meetings any more. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, have you a unit in Newark? 

Mr. Klapprott. Only loose members — they can't get any hold. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, do they meet any place in Newark? 

Mr. Klapprott. No; can't meet any place. 

Mr. Thomas. Don't meet in anyone's home or anything like that? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. So then actually there is no unit m Newark, is that 
right? 

Mr. Klapprott. Only those loose members who come up to Camp 
Nordland, but that is all they can do. 

Mr. Thomas. Now, you say you have a unit in Hudson County. 
Wliere is that located? 

Mr. Klapprott. The same condition. It used to be in the City 
Hall Tavern in Union City. It is not active now. 

Mr. Thomas. Have no meeting place now? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Where is the other? 

Mr. Klapprott. Bergen County. 

Mr. Thomas. Where is the meeting place? 

Mr. Klapprott. Same condition. 

Mr. Thomas. Where was it before? 

Mr. Klapprott. They met in Mrs. Kuhn's place. 



UN-AMERICAN PUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8303^ 

Mr. Thomas. Caroline Meade's lately? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you seen Caroline Meade lately? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. When was the last time you saw her? 

Mr. Klapprott. The end of December last year. 

Mr. Thomas. That was out at Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Klapprott. No; in New York. 

Mr. Thomas. How did you happen to select Andover Township 
as the site for your camp? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, somebodj^ heard that there was a place 
for sale. We were looking for a summer recreation place. Then 
we got in touch with the owner and we bought the place. 

Mr. Thomas. That was in 1934 or 1936? 

Mr. Klapprott. That was in the fall of 1936 when we first started 
to look for a place. 

Mr. Thomas. And will 3'ou give the committee the location of it 
in Andover Township — where it is located? 

Mr. Klapprott. Sussex County. 

Mr. Thomas. And it is located about how many miles from Dover? 

Mr. Klapprott. About 12 miles. 

Mr. Thomas. And about how many miles from Pompton Lakes? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know exactly. I never go that way. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, would you say maybe 15 miles or 20 miles? 

Mr. Klapprott. It is about that. 

Mr. Thomas. About 20 miles? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. How many miles from Winocki? 

Mr. Klapprott. ^^Tlere is that? 

Mr. Thomas. That is halfway between Camp Nordland and Pomp- 
ton Lakes. 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know the town. 

Mr. Thomas. Camp Nordland is how far from Lake Patna? 

Mr. Klapprott. About 7 or 8 miles. 

Mr. Thomas. How many miles from Warton? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know the town. 

Mr. Thomas. You said before that the German-American Bund 
was a political organization, that is correct, isn't it? 

Mr. Klapprott. Not entirely political — cultural and educational. 

Mr. Thomas. It is m part a political organization? 

Mr. Klapprott. Part political and part educational. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you made a declaration of receipts and ex- 
penditures to the Secretary of State? 

Mr. Klapprott. Are you talking about the German-American 
Bund Auxiliary? 

Mr. Thomas. I am talking about the thing that you said was a 
political organization. You said the German-American Bund was in 
part a pohtical organization, is that correct? 

Mr. Klapprott. The bund ; yes. 



62626— 41— vol. 14 10 



8304 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. Have you made any declaration to the Secretary 
of State of receipts or expenditures? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know anything about that. That would 
be the national headquarters to do that. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you checked up with yoiu* attorney at any 
time as to whether you should, under the law, make any declaration? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is up to the legal department, I guess. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you a membership list? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You haven't a membership list? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. When members pay their dues what do you do? 
Give them a receipt? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't laiow how they do it. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't know how it is done? 

Mr. Klapprott. I never collected any dues. I never did collect 
a penny of dues. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, you are the head of the eastern department of 
the German-American Bund, aren't you? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

Mr. Thomas. And you are familiar with the organization? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether the treasurer gives a receipt 
or not when he accepts dues? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't think so. He gives them stamps which 
go in the book. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, has he a membersliip list? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't think he has. 

Mr. Thomas. Does any officer of the German-American Bund have 
a membership list? 

Mr. Klapprott. No ; as much as I know nobody is allowed to carry 
any list. 

Mr. Thomas. That was a result of an order handed down by Fritz 
Kuhn a few years ago? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have a mailing list? 

Mr. Klapprott. I haven't got any. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you have a mailing list? 

Mr. Klapprott. We did in the first years I know, but no one has 
now — I don't think we have. 

Mr. Thomas. You say there are about 500 members of the bund in 
New Jersey? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is my estimation. 

Mr. Thomas. Would you know all of them by sight? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, that is impossible. 

Mr. Thomas. You would not know them by sight? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. And you would not know them by name either? 

Mr. Klapprott. No, couldn't know them by name. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know where they are all employed? 



IN-AMEUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8305 

Mr. Klapprott. That is what I don't know at all. 

Mr. Thomas. And that is what you don't want to know? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is your conclusion. 

Mr. Thomas. Is one of the purposes of the German-American 
Bund to keep this country out of war? 

Mr. Klapprott. One of the main purposes. 

Mr. Thomas. One of your main purposes is to keep this country 
out of war? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Before in response to some questions put to you by 
Mr. Voorhis in relation to communism, and I think in connection with 
some other testimony given to this committee, I got the idea that at 
one time the Germ an- American Bund was active in combating com- 
munism, is that correct? 

Mr. Klapprott. And still today. 

Mr. Thomas. It is still active today? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, what active steps are you taking today to 
combat communism? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, wherever we have a chance to have a meet- 
ing yet we talk about the danger of Communist philosophy and give a 
certain educational program to combat communism as a philosophy 
of life. As I stated before, in the first years communism triecl to 
attack our meetings all the time, and then out of that also the order 
division got in existence so we could identify our men from others. 
That was the original creation of the order division in the bund. 

Mr. Thomas. Are you as active in combating communism today as 
you were in 1938? 

Mr. Klapprott. We are. We still are against the philosophy of 
communism as we were before. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you combat communism today as you did in 1938? 

Mr. Klapprott. We do. 

Mr. Thomas. Is your press still combating it in the same way? 

Mr. Klapprott. We do as much as 

Mr. Thomas. Your newspapers, yes, but are your newspapers com- 
bating it the same way as they did in 1938? 

Mr. Klapprott. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. You say they do? 

Mr. Klapprott. I said they do; yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know Adolf Bauer? 

Mr. Klapprott. No; I don't know him. 

Mr. Thomas. He is active out there at Camp Nordland, isn't he? 

Mr. Klapprott. I might know him. 

Mr. Thomas. Adolf Bauer. I don't know exactly how to spell the 
name, whether it is B-o-w-e-r or B-a-u-e-r. Do you know any per- 
son by that name? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know him. I might know him when I 
see him. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know Otto Bauer? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 



8306 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Thomas. As I imderstand you have no liquor license out there 
now at all? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Is beer sold on the premises now? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Is beer given away on the premises? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, there are some who want to buy one for 
himself. He buys one and then drinks it. 

Air. Thomas. You mean someone can buy beer there now? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't care whether someone buys beer or not. 

Mr. Thomas. I may ask — I know you may not care but what I am 
trying to find out is, can a person go there and buy beer? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Can't buy beer? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. Beer is distributed there, isn't it? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't know anything about that either. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know that someone goes into Camp Nordland 
they can buy a ticket for a dollar? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. We will consider the meeting of July 4 or the meet- 
ing of August 18; weren't tickets distributed to people who attended 
Camp Nordland, who paid a dollar for those tickets? 

Mr. Klapprott. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Thomas. You don't know of any tickets sold or distributed 
for the price of a dollar on either one of those days? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. For any purpose wliatsoever? 

Mr. Klapprott. No. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. If a person were present at that camp on either July 
4 or August 18 and contributed a dollar upon solicitation, to the 
defense fund of Fritz Kulin, would he be given the right to drink beer 
there on the grounds? 

Mr. Klapprott. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Starnes. Would he be given some receipt or ticket that would 
entitle him to drink beer on the grounds and be served beer on the 
grounds? 

Mr. Klapprott. This is very new to me. 

Mr. Starnes. Very new to you? All right, your organization as an 
organization and as part of the national policy, opposed the passage 
of the Selective Service Act, did it not? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't think we did. 

Mr. Starnes. You didn't? Did you oppose as a policy of your 
organization, and I want you to be very careful about this, the pas- 
sage of the act giving the President of the United States the authority 
to order the National Guard into service for one year's peacetime 
training? 

Mr. Klapprott. That was a bill in Congress. 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; I am talking about congressional bills. First, 
did the bund as an organization and as a part of its policy oppose the 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8307 

passao:o of tho bill by Congress which authorized Ibo Prosidcnt of the 
United States to order the National Guard of the United States into 
sers^ice for 1 year's peacetime training? 

Mr. Klapprott. We, as much as 1 know, we always against the 
President ordering things. We were always for Congress should 
decide on questions like that. 

Mr. Staknes. In other words, you oppose giving the President any 
authority to order out the guard? 

Mr. Klapprott. That is right. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you would not insist, would you, that the 
Reichstag in Germany should have the authority to veto the acts of 
the fuehrer? 

Mr. Starnes. I will ask you if it was tlie policy of the bund as a 
national organization, to oppose the passage of the Selective Service 
Act by the Congress during the past month? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, I would have to look into it. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, you might have called it "the conscription 
bill." Did you oppose the passage of the conscription bill? 

Mr. Klapprott. I think we did; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't it a fact that you did do so editorially in your 
publication and that the organization was active in its figlit against 
the passage of that bill? 

Mr. Klapprott. Well, only with the newspaper, I guess. 

Mr. Starnes. Hasn't the bund as a part of its policy opposed the 
defense preparations of this country during the i)ast 12 months? 

Mr. Klapprott. I don't think so. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all I have to ask. 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all; you may be excused. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Barker, who will be vour next witness? 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Arthur H. Bell. 

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR H. BELL, ORGANIZER FOR THE KU 

KLUX KLAN 

Mr. Starnes. Will you please stand and raise your right hand. 
Do you solemnl}^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Give us your full name and vour address, please? 

Mr. Bell. Arthur H. Bell, Bloomfield, N. J. 

Mr. Starnes. WTiat is your profession or vocation? 

Mr. Bell. At the present time? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Bell. I am an organizer for the Klan, 

Mr. Starnes. At the present time? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, until 3 weeks ago. 

Mr. Starnes. What positions have you held in the Klan other than 
^n organizer? 



8308 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Bell. I was grand dragon for the State of New Jersey, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that the chief office? 

Mr. Bell. That is so. 

Mr. Starnes. That is the chief presiding officer of the Klan in 
this State? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, su*. 

Mr. Starnes. And you were such on the 18th of August of this 
year? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that the truth? 

Mr. Bell. That is the truth. 

Mr. Starnes. How long were you grand dragon? 

Mr. Bell. I was grand dragon from 1933 to 1934. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat position did you hold in the Klau from 1934 
to this time? 

Mr. Bell. I held no position in the Klan until 2 years ago. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat position did you hold then? 

Mr. Bell. I went in business for myself. 

Mr. Starnes, In other words, prior to that time, prior to the t'me 
you went in business for yourself you were working for the Klan? 

Mr. Bell. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. An employee of the Klan? 

Mr. Bell. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And you received your remuneration from them? 

Mr. Bell. Correct. 

Mr. Starnes. How long have you been a member of the Klan? 

Mr. Bell. Since 1920. ^ 

Mr. Starnes. How many members, approximately, in the lOan, do 
you have at the present time in New Jersey? 

Mr. Bell. At the present time? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Bell. I could not give you an idea. When I was grand dragon 
I could have told you. 

Mr. Starnes. Wlio is the grand dragon at the present time? 

Mr. Bell. Samuel G. Stout III, of Philadelphia. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any idea how many posts or local units 
or branches of the Klan there is? 

Mr. Bell. As an offhand guess I would say about 35. 

Mr. Starnes. In the State? 

Mr. Bell. That is a guess, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. I understand. We are just merely getting an approxi- 
mation and there is no criticism of you. 

Mr. Bell. Not being the grand dragon I have no knowledge of it. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat was the membership of the Klan — can you 
give us some approximation of the size of the units so we can get some 
sort of approximation of the membership? 

Mr. Bell. You mean at the present time? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 



UN-AMEKICAN PKOl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8309 

Mr. Bell. No, sir; not being in charge of the meetings I don't know- 
any thing about them. 

Mr. Starnes. At the time you were grand dragon what was its 
membership in the State? 

Mr. Bell. I would say about 300,000. 

Mr. Starnes. About 300,000 in the State? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That was the peak membership? 

Mr, Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you present at the meeting that was held on 
August 18th at Camp Nordland? 

\h\ Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you speak on that occasion? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you one of the officers of the Klan who made 
arrangements with Mr. Klapprott for the use of Camp Nordland on 
that occasion? 

Mr. Bell. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, did you take any part in the negotia- 
tions or conversations leading up to the use of Camp Nordland by the 
Klan? 

Mr. Bell. I meant Mr. Klapprott — I mean I met Mr. Klapprott 
once prior to that date, at wdiicli time the thought was brought and 
it was more or less agreed upon, that we meet there. 

Mr. Starnes. What led to that meeting? 

Mr. Bell. The thought was brought to me by another member 
of our organization that it would be a good idea to go to a place 
where there was supposed to be no Americans and speak on Ameri- 
canism to them. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, did vou expect to find such a place at Camp 
Nordland? 

Mr. Bell. Well, that was the understandmg, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That there wouldn't be any Americans there? 

Mr. Bell. They were hyphenated Americans. 

Mr. Starnes. And you were going to put on Americanization 
program, is that the idea? 

Mr. Bell. That is the idea, yes, that I understood, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Was there anything said at all in the negotiations 
about the aims and purposes of the two organizations being one? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know anything of a movement that has been 
under way during the past year or 18 months or any time during that 
period, by leaders of certain groups to unite these groups into one 
organization or to place them behind one program in this country? 

Mr. Bell. I have never heard anything about it. I know nothing 
about any other organization excepting the Klan and, of course, w^hat 
I met with 

Mr. Starnes. You have never had any dealings with the officials of 
the Knights of the White Camellia? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Or the Silver Shirts? 



8310 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Pelley's organization? 

Mr. Bell. I heard of them through the press but know nothing 
about them. 

Mr. Starnes. You never participated in any form, shape or man- 
ner in an effort to bring about leadership behind one group in this 
country or behind one program? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What are the professed purposes of the Klan now, 
briefly stated and no speech? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. I would like — do you want me to put that in, 
sir, or do you want me to just speak about it? 

Mr. Starnes. If it is brief. 

Mr. Bell. This is why I joined the Klan. I was handed one of 
these and it appealed to me: Believing in the tenets of the Christian 
religion, white supremacy, protection of womanhood, just laws, the 
pursuit of happiness, closer relationship of purer Americanism ; the 
upholding of the Constitution of the United States, the sovereignty 
of our State rights, separation of church and State, freedom of speech 
and press ; the relationship between capital and labor, or the preserva- 
tion of the cause of mob violence and lynchings, preventing of 
unwarranted strikes by foreign labor agitators; prevention of fires 
and destruction of property by lawless elements; the limitation of 
foreign immigration; much needed local reforms and laws and order. 
That appealed to me, sir, and that is what the Klan stands for. 

Mr. Starnes. You said that the peak membership of the Klan 
when you were grand dragon in this State, was probably 300,000, is 
that correct? 

Mr. Bell. That is my estimation. Of course, that is a long time 
ago. I could not give you the actual figures. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you say that many at the present time, judg- 
ing from your experience and your contact with the Klan and your 
work as an organizer of the Klan, going about over the State, woidd 
you say your membership is that strong at the present time? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you say it was half that number? 

Mr. Bell. Well, you are asking me something that I cannot answer. 

Mr. Starnes. I understand that. 

Mr. Bell, I will tell you the reason I can't answer it. 

Mr. Starnes. But at the same time I would like to have some 
approximation. 

Mr. Bell. The reason I can't answer it is I know nothing about 
the southern end of the State. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the strength of the northern end of the 
State as compared to former years? 

Mr. Bell. I would say it is about one-fom'th. That is roughly 
guessing. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliere was your membership, most of it, formerly 
located when you were grand dragon and you were familiar with the 
approximate strength of the Klan? 

Mr. Bell. Where was it located, sir? 



UN-AMEIilCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8311 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Bell. All over the State. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any idea what the membership of the 
Klan was at its height throuiihout the country? 

Mr. Bell. The national Klan? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Bell. No, su\ 

Mr. Starnes. At this meeting out here on August 18, was that the 
only time that the Klan had met at Camp Nordland? Was that the 
fij-st and onh' tmie it ever met at Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you, in the course of your remarks, make any 
reference to the fact that it was possible to criticize or talk as you 
pleased, as an American citizen, about any particular group, racial 
or religious or otherwise, in this country save one, but there was one 
minority in this country you would be violently criticized for if you 
said anything critical of? 

Mr. Bell. I heard you put the question and I was trying to remem- 
ber whether I said anything like that or not. I might have mentioned 
something casually that way. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you recall saying something to the effect there 
w^as a minority in this country which apparently had control of the 
press? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And the moving-picture industry? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And financial affairs of the nation? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not make that statement? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. But you might have said something to the effect 
that you could discuss and criticize any other racial group and any 
other organization in this country save one racial minority? 

Mr. Bell. It is true I might have said that. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you see the picture of Adolf Hitler being dis- 
played anywhere within the confines of that camp at the time you 
were there? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Was that the only visit you ever made out there? 

Mr. Bell. I have never been there except that day. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you go through this so-called dance hall? 

Mr. Bell. I was in there and had something to eat. 

Mr. Starnes. Was there a dance hall there? 

Mr. Bell. There is a floor space about, I would say, about as large 
as this auditorium here, with tables and seats around it. 

Mr. Starnes. WTiat was the date of that meeting? 

Mr. Bell. August 18. 

^Ir. Starnes. ^Yliat have been the activities of the Klan in this 
State? 

Mr. Bell. In which way, sir? Will you put the question again? 

Mr. Starnes. I said, what have been the programs of the Elian in 
this State? 



8312 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Bell. To unite the people of the Protestant faith in the or- 
ganization of Americanism; to teach Americanism where we could 
to try to discourage hyphenated Americanism and to build up a closer 
relationship of Christian men and women. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you engaged in any drills or formations as an 
organization, of any type or character? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That partook of the nature of military drills? 

Mr. Bell. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you worn masks or robes which would disguise 
your identity? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You have done that? 

Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Why do you feel it is necessary to do a thing like 
that? 

Mr. Bell. Sir, that was a part of the ritualistic regalia when I 
went into the organization. It is simply a symbol — a symbol of 
secrecy, the same as any other organization, without mentioning any 
names. They have their secrets and symbols of secrecy. However, 
that has been changed. They do not wear the visor any longer. 
That is not allowed by the order of the imperial wizard. The visor 
is not allowed on the order of the imperial wizard. 

Mr. Starnes. How long since the visor is not allowed? 

Mr. Bell. In other words, the members of the klan still wear 
their robes. 

Mr. Starnes. Their robes and helmet? 

Mr. Bell. The robes and helmets but the visors have been removed. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Bell, did you tell the leaders of the German- 
American Bund that you were going out there because you thought 
there were not any Americans there and you wanted to Americanize 
them? 

Mr. Bell. I did not say that to anybody. I think that thought 
was given by the men who made the original arrangements. 

Mr. VooRHis. I thought that was your testimony in answer to 
Mr. Starnes' question. 

Mr. Bell. He asked me why I agreed to it. 

Mr. Starnes. That is correct. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, do you think it was wise to hold the meeting 
there? 

Mr. Bell. I did then; I don't now. 

Mr. VooRHis. Are there any groups of people or individuals who 
are excluded from membership in the Klan? 

Mr. Bell. Excluded? 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes. 

Mr. Bell. Not by the Klan itself. It is a Christian organization, 
«ir, so therefore Hebrews do not join it. It is a Protestant organiza- 
tion, so therefore Catholics do not join it. 

Mr. VooRHis. They can't join it? 

Mr. Bell. If the church allows them I understand they can. But 
it is also my understanding that the Catholic Church does not permit 
its members to join anything not controlled by the church. I am 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8313 

not a Catholic and I know I can't join the CathoHc Church. This 
hoins: a white or<2;anization the NeQ:roes are naturally excluded. 

I think they have org-anizations that I can't join. 

Mr. VooRHis. But it is your judgment that it is helpful to the 
country to have different groups organized in little tight organizations? 

Mr. Bell. No. 

Mr. VooRHis. And sometimes secret. 

Mr. Bell. Yes. Secret societies — they have been in existence 
since the time of King Solomon. 

Mr. VooRHis. I asked you if you think it is good for the country. 

Mr. Bell. I think so in this way. I have made statements — I 
have spoken in Negro churches and before Negro congregations and 
before all types of people that don't belong to the Klan, and I made 
the statement we can work with all organizations and fight for Ameri- 
canism as groups, working united together. 

I mean by that the Catholics, the Jewish people and the Negro 
people. 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you attempt to cooperate with them? 

Mr. Bell. Perfectly willing to if they are fighting for America. 

Mr. Starnes. Any further questions, Mr. Voorhis? 

Mr. Voorhis. That is all. 

Mr. Thomas, No questions. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Starnes. You may CfJl your next witness. 

Mr. Barker. Reverend Young. 

TESTIMONY OF REV. A. M. YOUNG, FORMER GRAND KALIFF OF 
THE KU KLUX KLAN IN NEW JERSEY 

Mr, Starnes. Please stand and raise your right hand. Do you 
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help 3^ou God? 

Mr. Young. I do, 

Mr. Starnes. Give us your full name and address, please. 

Mr. Young. Alton Monroe Young, D. D., Hudson County, New 
Jersey. 

Mr, Starnes. You are a doctor of divinity? 

Mr. Young. I am. 

Mr, Starnes. With an honorary degree? 

Mr. Young. All doctors of divinity have honorary degrees, 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any other degrees honorary or other- 
wise? 

Mr. Young. None whatsoever. 

Mr, Starnes. Are you the pastor of any church? 

Mr. Young. I haven't been for about 7 years. 

Mr. Starnes, How long have you been in the ministry? 

Mr, Young, Forty years. 

Mr, Starnes. Where were you born? 

Mr, Young, Texas. 

Mr. Starnes. How long have you been a member of the Klan? 

Mr. Young. Well, since, almost, the first day it started 23 years 
ago. 



8314 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. How long have you lived in New Jersey? 

Mr, Young. Forty years. 

Mr. Starnes. You joined the Klan in New Jersey? 

Mr. Young. I did. 

Mr. Starnes. What is your present position? 

Mr. Young. Klansman. 

Mr. Starnes. You have no title of any type or character? 

Mr. Young. I am former grand kaliff of the State, which is vice 
grand dragon. 

Mr. Starnes. In just plain, everj^day language that means the 
same as vice president of a corporation? 

Mr. Young. Vice president. 

Mr. Starnes. How long were you in that position? 

Mr. Young. Well, now, I can't give you that date. I was made 
grand kaliff the day Mr. Bell was made grand dragon and I don't 
quite remember the j^ear. I will have to ask him to tell you that, sir. 
I could not tell you. 

Mr. Starnes. Are you in a position or do you loiow about what the 
approximate membership of the Klan is in the State at the present 
time? 

Mr. Young. There isn't any one, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Starnes. Don't you keep a roll or record of some sort? 

Mr. Young. At Atlanta, Ga. 

Mr. Starnes. At Atlanta, Ga.? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. They would have it? 

Mr. Young. Atlanta, Ga., has the complete roster of the Ku 
Klux Klan. 

Mr. Starnes. For the entire Nation? 

Mr. Young. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't have a State organization or anything like 
that that keeps a record of its own members? 

Mr. Young. Well, the Klan is not as it w^as years ago and I am not 
really prepared to tell you that for I don't know. 

Mr. Starnes. You don't know anything about its finances or 
anything of that sort? 

Mr. Young. No. 

Mr. Starnes. How much do vou pav annual dues to the Klan? 

Mr. Young. $6. 

Mr. Starnes. $6 per year? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat is the initiation fee? 

Mr. Young. $10. 

Mr. Starnes. You heard the testimony, of course, of Mr. Bell 
with reference to the wearing of robes and concealment, and so forth, 
and so on? 

Mr. Young. I did. 

Mr. Starnes. His statement was a correct statement of the present 
situation? The}^ do wear the robes but they 

Mr. Young. They have no visor. 

Mr. Starnes. The visor is pulled back so the face 



Mr. Young. It is cut off. We are not allowed to have it there^ 
It was cut off by the order of the imperial wizard ; and may I add this, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8315 

that if any ono were oaug-ht with somi'thiiis attached, permanently 
attached. th(>y wouhl be banished from the Khm. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you attend a meeting out here at Camp 
Nordhvnd on August IS? 

Air. Young. I did; I arranged it. 

Mr. Starnes. You arranged the meeting? 

Mr. Young. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. ^Vlly did you arrange that meeting? 

Mr. Young. Well, I will answer you for the same reason why I 
have been in the Ku Klux Klan for 23 years. 

Afr. Starnes. Just a moment, for your information and to be 
])erfectly fair with you the committee has an unbroken rule we don't 
permit the reading of statements. 

Mr. Young. I am not reading tlie statement. This is something 
I thought you asked for about an hour ago and I have it here for you. 

Mr. Starnes. Just give us briefly and in your own words and 
without any attempt at making a speech, the answer to my question — 
be as factual as you can. 

Mr. Young. It is pretty hard for an old fool; why did we? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; wh}^ did you arrange the meeting with the 
bund? 

Mr. Young. I \W11 tell you, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the 
committee, for the last year and a half we have been bombarding, 
and I think your Congressman from that district can vouch for that, 
that we have been out all' hours of the night and all hours of the day 
preaching against the German- American Bund and the Fascists and 
all un-American or hyphenated American organizations. 

On the Fourth of Jul}^ I happened to be one of the speakers at 
New^foundland at a Klan rally, and then went to a church rally — 
the Methodist Church. I read the next day of a man by the name 
of Klapprott, who I never saw in my life at that time, and some 
other men — I can't tell you their names, I don't know. I know^ I 
met two bundsmen — Kunze and Klapprott and the thought came to 
me, you know I probably made an awful fool of myself — I don't 
object to that going on the record. I am an old man. I am an Ameri- 
can and an\'thing that I have ever done in my 23 years with the Klan 
has onlv been done with one objective. 

The thought came to me if we could only go up there to Camp 
Nordland, invite all Klans people of the State and around the terri- 
tory and have a great national day. I went to my superior officer 
and I told him of my desire. He said it could not be done. 

He said: "You don't expect an un-American group like that to 
let the Klan have its meeting ground when you know we call our- 
selves the No. 1 patriotic order of America, and I still insist we are — 
they wouhhi't have us there.'' 

"Well," I said: "Who do vou get in touch with,'' and he said: 
"I don't know." 

I learned through inquiring about where I might get a man who 
was supposed to live in Hoboken. and that was Mr. Klapprott. But 
I learned he did not live hi Hoboken. I got in touch with him through 
a paper — I never heard of it hi my life before. I think they call it 
the Free America — the Free American. I think that is the name of it. 



8316 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I called up and asked for the man who had charge of New Jersey and 
the lady wanted to know who I was and what I wanted and so forth. 

I said that I happened to represent the Ku Klux Klan and I wanted 
to talk about the property for a meeting. Very shortly a gentlemen 
got on the phone and said his name was Mr. Klapprott and I told 
him — I told him what we wanted and he said: "Well, I can't make 
any decision as to that." 

As a matter of fact I rather felt he was doubtful that it could be 
held there. He said he would have to take that up with the board, 
and he said: "You will have to come to me and you will have to tell 
us why you want this meeting and we would want to know whether 
you were going to openly attack us or not." 

I said: "Well, we are gomg to attack, I can tell you now, any 
group or any mdividual whom we consider is out of harmony with the 
United States of America." 

So we met — to tell you the house I don't know, it was somewhere 
in Union City. I could take you there but I don't know the number. 
I met Mr. Klapprott and Mr. Kunze. I think that is the head of it. 
He was here yesterday. They asked me why we wanted to visit 
their camp. 

"Well," I said: "It isn't a matter of visiting your camp; it is a 
matter of putting on an Americanization program." 

I told Mr. Klapprott, and I am sure he will bear me out in this, 
I said: "If you can take the dishing out of our Americanism that we 
will give you well then I don't think you" are such bad Americans, 
but I don't know whether you can nor can't." 

There was only one thing that he asked me and that was that we 
don't attack what you call the bund. 

Mr. Thomas. Wliat was that? I did not hear you. 

Mr. Young. The bund, and I said: "If it is un-American it should 
be attacked; if it is American you won't object to being questioned 
anyway." 

And to make a long story short of the negotiations, w^e entered 
into a contract of which I have here a copy of the contract. If you 
would care to have me read it or how would you like it presented? 

Mr. Starnes. Read it for us. 

Mr. Young (reading) : 

Camp Nordland, R. F. D. No. 1, Newton, N J, July 1940. . . 

It doesn't give the date and I can't tell you the date. But I thmk 
it does further down. 

Agreement: Be it agreed between the authorized representatives of the Ger- 
man-American Bund AuxiliarA', Inc., a New Jersey corporation and owner of 
Camp Nordland, August Klapprott on one part and the authorized representa- 
tives of the Knights and Women of the Ku Klux Klan of the Realm of New 
Jersey, Arthur H. Bell and A.M. Young on the other part, that the Knights and 
Women of the Ku Klux Klan of the Realm of New Jersey, be permitted to hold 
Americanization exercises, to take up a collection, on the general assembly 
grounds — 

and may I say here, gentlemen, the general assembly grounds is a 
natural bowl and it isn't on the part of the property where the 
German-American Bund have their buildings. 

There is only a platform there. 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask a question there: Isn't that 
bowl within the 200 acres owned by the bund? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8317 

Mr. Young. I could not tell you that, Mr. Thomas. I don't know. 
I presume it is because they give us a contract. 
Mr. Starnes. All right, proceed. 
Mr. Young (reading) : 

Take up a collection on the general assembly grounds — 

that was the place where we were meetmg — 

at Camp Xordland on the afternoon and evening of August 18, 1940, subject to 
the following conditions: 

The Knights and Women of the Ku Klux Klan of the Realm of New Jersey 
agree to abide by the general rules and regulations of the Camp Nordland manage- 
ment; no admission fee shall be charged for entry to the grounds but a contribu- 
tion of 25 cents shall be collected from the operator of every automobile or other 
vehicle entering the property — 



It doesn't say here but that was 

Mr. Starxes. That was your contract? 

Mr. Young. That was their mone}^ and not ours. We did not 
get any of that money. [Reading:] 

The restaurant and other food, beverage concessions on the ground shall be 
operated by the Camp Nordland management. Other current activities on the 
grounds or in the buildings of Camp Xordland shall not be limited or affected by 
this meeting. 

That is we had no rights there excepting on that field. 

Now, I might say, sir, that there is a portion here where it is 
penciled or inked out and okayed by Mr, Klapprott's signatme. He 
inked it out. He put a stipulation there that they held the right to 
refuse any one the privilege to come on that field that they felt should 
not be on the field, and as we were having a meeting where everybody, 
black and white, Jew and Catholic and Protestant, were invited, we 
would not stand for it — that is the grand dragon would not stand for 
it in Philadelphia. He had the contract. He asked to see the con- 
tract. They then removed that objectionable part about the camp. 

That is about all, gentlemen, regarding that. 

Mr. Starnes. May I ask you a question with reference to this 
meeting 

Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask a question regarding the contract. 

Dr. Young, was any fee paid for the use of the premises? 

i Mr. Young. Well, Mr. Thomas, you w^ould say yes and you would 

say no. We considered the fee of getting the money on the gate was 

ample fee for the use of the grounds; otherwise there was no money 

( paid. 

Mr. Thomas. That was for the parking privilege? 
i Mr. Young. Ye&— well, I don't know w^hether you call it parking, 
i sir. 

Mr. Thomas. I understand, it was for automobiles. 

Mr. Young. Yes; to get into the groimds. 

Mr. Starnes. Din-ing the course of the day or evening or both,. 
H did you make a talk — a public addiess? 

^ir. Young. Well, sir, I talked about 3 minutes, perhaps — I had a 
wedding 

Mr. Starnes. Did you in the course of your remarks make any 
reference to the fact that there was afforded every American an 
opportunity to criticize any minority or racial group in this country 
save one, but there was one minority group you would dare not 
attack without reprisals? 



8318 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Young. I could not say that because- 



Mr. Starnes. On this occasion you did attack one racial group, 
did you? 

Mr. Young. Now, Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Starnes. Just answer the question. 

Mr. Young. Well, I have got to clarify that. 

Mr. Starnes. I want to know first if on this occasion during the 
brief time you talked, if you attacked a racial mmority? 

Mr. Young. I would not call it "attack." I disagree with the 
theological standpoint of the Jew and I have been told all around 
there that there was a law in New Jersey that if a man said something 
about a Jew he would be arrested; if he carried three pamphlets in 
his pocket that were anti-Jewish he would be arrested ; if he was in his 
home and had five people there and talked about the Jew he would be 
arrested. I say it and I say it again that this is a free country and it 
gives me the right to attack, not an individual — there are criminal 
libels for that — but any group of people or any race and I still hold 
that right. 

Mr. Starnes. Did any of the other speakers there make any 
reference to the fact that in this country the press, the moving- 
picture industry, its financial set-up for the Government was con- 
trolled by a racial minority? 

Mr. Young. I think there was. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you recall who made those remarks? 

Mr. Young. A man who is supposed to have an organization by 
the name of 

Mr. Starnes. Smythe? 

Mr. Young. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Starnes. He is supposed to be with the Protestant War Veter- 
ans of America? 

Mr. Young. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. He made the statement? 

Mr. Young. He made the statement and I was very much opposed 
to his having been permitted to speak at all on the platform. 

Mr. VooRHis. Who invited hun to speak? 

Mr. Young. Mr. Bell. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all. 

Mr. Thomas. No questions. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Starnes. Call the next witness. 

TESTIMONY OF OTTO HOHNER, IRVINGTON, N. J. 

(Mr. Hohner was attended b}^ Mr. Keegan, his attorney.) 

Mr. Starnes. Will you please stand and raise your right hand. 
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing 
but the truth so help you God? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Let the record show this witness is represented by 
Mr. Keegan. 

Will you give j^our full name and address, please? 

Mr. Hohner. Otto Hohner, 1022 Grove Street, Irvington. 

Mr. Starnes. By whom are you employed? 

Mr. Hohner. Roselle Tool & Die Co. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



8319 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



Mr. 
Mr. 



Mr. Starnes. How long; have you been employed by them? 
Mr. IIoHNER. About 6 years. 

You live here in Newark? 

Irvington. 

Where were you born? 

Germany. 

\\Tien? 

June 23, 1909. 

When did you come to America? 

1929. 

Was that the first time you came here? 

Yes. 

Have vou been back to Germany? 

Yes. 

WTien? 

1936. 

\^Tiat month did you go back? 

End of May, I think. 

How long did you remain there? 

Until the end of September, including the trip. 

Ai"e you a natm-alized citizen? 

I have my fu'st papers. 

Your first papers? 

Yes. 

When did you take out yom- first papers? 

The fu"st time I took it out m 1930. 

Took out your first papers in 1930? 

Yes. 

And you did not complete yoiu- citizenship papers 
so you took out your second first papers when? 
Mr. HoHNER. I applied for them in 1939. 

What month, do you recall? 

June or July. 
Mr. Starnes. Do you frequently visit Camp Nordland? 
Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Starnes. WTien did you first begin your visits to Camp 
Nordland? 

Mr. Hohner. My first visit? 
Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Hohner. I think in 1938 I was up there a few times. 
Mr. Starnes. A few times in 1938? 
Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, you continued to visit Camp Nordland 
tlu-oughout 1939? 

Mr. Hohner. That is right. 
Mr. Starnes. You went up there quite often? 
Mr. Hohner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Would you say once a week or once every 2 or 3 
weeks throughout the year, and sometimes more than once a week, 
is that correct? 

Air. Hohner. I should sav about once every 2 weeks during 1939. 
Mr. Starnes. Then you have been gomg up there through 1940? 
Mr. Hohner. I have been— during 1940 I have been up once a 
week. 



Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 

Starnes. 

Hohner. 

Starnes. 

Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 

Starnes. 

Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 
Mr. Starnes. 



Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Hohner. 



62626 — il— vol. 14- 



-11 



8320 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Were you there the day the Kii Klux Klan was 
having its meetmg on August 18? 

Mr. HoHNER. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Are you a member of the German- American Bund? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you ever been a member of the bund? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Were you a member of the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Hohner. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You own an automobile, don't you? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And the hcense number is ES-29-C? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. That was the automobile m wliich you visited the 
camp on August 18? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 

Air. Starnes. ^Vliy were you going to Camp Nordland so often if 
you are not a member of the bund? 

Mr. Hohner. Because I was helping out a friend Avho is. 

Mr. Starnes. Because what? 

Mr. Hohner. Because I was helping out a friend. 

Mr. Starnes. You were helping out a friend? 

Mr. Hohner. Who is an officer at the camp and he is under the 
doctor's care and I was doing 

Mr. Starnes. Have you seen members of the Bund drilling at 
Camp Nordland? 

Mr. Hohner. I wish you would define that a little more- — "drill- 
iiig." As I heard that this morning already you mean military 
drilling. If it is military drilling I haven't seen it. 

Mr. Starnes. I asked you if you saw any drilling. 

Mr. Hohner. I have seen formations. 

Mr. Starnes. Prior to the time that you came here from Germany 
did you have any military experience? 

Mr. Hohner. I had not. 

Mr. Starnes. Had none? 

Mr. Hohner. No. 

Mr. Starnes. How were these formations that you saw out there, 
these drill formations, what were they — describe them to the com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Hohner. Well, they were the same like thej^ would hold up 
to the grounds where the speakers w^ere. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you seen them in uniform out there? 

Mr. Hohner. I have in 1938. 

Mr. Starnes. In 1938 j^ou saw them in uniform? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you seen the swastika displaj^ed out there 
along with the American flag? 

Mr. Hohner. I have. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you seen the members of the Bund give a salute 
like this (demonstrating) with the right hand? 

Mr. Hohner. Early in 1938 I have. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8321 

Mr. Starnes. In 1938 you saw them give the so-called Nazi salute 
with the right hand? 

Mr. HoHNER. (No answer). 

Mr. Starnes. Is that correct? 

Mr. HoHNER. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not see that in 1939 or 1940? 

Mr. HoHNER. I did not. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you seen in the dance hall and in the res- 
taurant a photograph of Herr Hitler displayed or shown either in 
1938, 1939 or 1940? 

Mr. HoHNER. I have seen it in 1939. 

Mr. Starnes. \Mien was it? 

Mr. HoHNER. During the summer season. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask a c^uestion there? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Hohner, have you been out to the bar there at 
Camp Nordland where they serve beverages? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starxes. Did 3 ou see the pictures of Hitler at the bar? 

Mr. Hohner. At the bar? 

Mr. Thomas. Yes. 

Mr. Hohner. No; I don't recollect seeing it there. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you see any pictures at the bar? 

Mr. Hohner. I don't recollect any pictures at the bar. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you see a picture of Hindenburg and Bismarck 
at the bar — in back of the bar? 

Mr. Hohner. I don't recollect. 

Mr. Thomas. Well, now since 1938 did j^ou see any pictures there 
at the bar at all? 

Mr. Hohner. No, not that I can recall — not that I have noticed, 

Mr. Starnes. Did any one make any attempt to get you to join 
the bmid — any one ask you to join? 

Mr. Hohner. Well, I have been asked why I am not joining. 

Mr. Starnes. You were asked why you did not join? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Did this friend of yours ask you to join? 

Mr. Hohner. No. 

Mr. Starnes. You had other friends though who did ask you? 

Mr. Hohner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Asked why you did not join? 

Mr. Hohner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. ^Aliat do vou understand the purposes of the bund 
to be? 

Mr. Hohner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. In asking you to join they certainly told you the 
aims and purposes of the bund; what did you understand the purposes^ 
of the bund to be? 

Mr. Hohner. To gather the German-Americans into one group. 

Mr. Starnes. For what purpose? 

Mr. Hohner. To have more political influence and to unify all the 
Germans — all the German cultures in one organization. 

Mr. Starnes. What else? 

Mr. Hohner. That is all I know of. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they also tell you it was to fight against any 
boycott of German people or German-American people and of German 



8322 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

goods? Did they tell you that was one of the reasons they formed the 
bund? 

Mr. HoHNER. Not to me. 

Mr. Starnes. They did not tell you that? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Well, are you in sympathy with the aims of the 
bund as you understand them? 

Mr. HoHNER. As I understand them; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. As you understand them you are? 

Mr. HoHNER. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you a Social Security card? 

Mr. HoHNER. Yes. 

Mr. Thomas. Have you the card with you? 

Mr. HoHNER. I have not; I am sorry. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you recall the number on that card? 

Mr. HoHNER. No; I can't give it to you. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Barker, have you got the number of the card? 

Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. A little later on will you give the number to this 
committee. 

Do you know whether the Roselle Tool & Die Co. has any national- 
defense contracts? 

Mr. HoHNER. I don't laiow. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you know whether that company has any 
national-defense contracts, Mr. Barker? 

Mr. Barker. They do. 

Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, this is one of a great many cases 
that Mr. Barker and other mvestigators have unearthed in New 
Jersey where members go to the bund camp and are employees of 
firms in this State that have national-defense contracts. 

I just wanted to point that out. 

Mr. Starnes. The Chair will make a reference concerning the execu- 
tive hearings that have been held before we adjom-n today. 

You are talking more freely and giving us more information in a 
public hearing than you did in executive hearing, aren't you? 

Mr. Hohner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't that right? I will ask you, you did refuse to 
give us answers to certain questions in an executive hearing that you 
have answered today, isn't that true? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you any questions, Mr. Voorhis? 

Mr. Voorhis. No. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Thomas? 

Mr. Thomas. No further questions. 

Mr. Barker. I would like to ask a question. Mr. Hohner, are you 
a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Hohner. No. 

Mr. Barker. You are an alien? 

Mr. Hohner. I have my first papers. 

Mr. Barker. You have yom- first papers? 

Mr. Hohner. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. That is your second set of first papers; isn't it, Mr. 
Hohner? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8323 

Afr. HoHXER. Yes. 

Mr. Bahker. When did vou lake your first set of papers out? 

Mr. HoHNER. 1930. 

Mr. Barker. And you went back to Germany after that? 

Mr. HoHNER. Yes. 

Mr. Barker. You did not apply for your second papers after that? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Barker. When did you take out your second first papers? 

Mr. HoHNER. I applied for it in June or July 1939 and 1 received 
them early tliis year. 

Mr. Barker. Have you registered as an alien under the act recently 
passed? 

Mr. HoHNER. Not yet. 

Mr. Barker. You have not? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Barker. That is all. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all. You are excused. 

Mr. Starnes. The other witnesses are excused. We will not use 
them at this time. They are all at liberty to go. 

Mr. Keegan. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Holmer, when you made this trip to Germany 
whom did you go with? 

Mr. HoHNER. Nobody. 

Mr. Barker. You did not go with anyone? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Barker. You did not go with Geiter? 

Mr. HoHNER. No. 

Mr. Barker. But you do know Geiter? 

Mr. HoHXER. No. 

Mr. Barker. You said last night j^ou knew Geiter. 

Mr. HoHNER. I explained to you last night I thought you were 
saying Geeto. 

Mr. Barker. You called him Geiter. 

Mr. HoHNER. That is not the same man we are talking about, I am 
sure. 

Mr. Barker. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Ries. 

TESTIMONY OF HERMAN A. RIES, OF THE PENNSYLVANIA MOTOR 

POLICE 

Mr. Starxes. Will you please stand and raise your right hand. 
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and notliing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Ries. I do. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Barker, I will ask the prehminary questions. 
Will you give us your full name? 

Mr. Ries. Herman A. Ries. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat is your address? 

Mr. Ries. Avondale, Pa. 



8324 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat is your profession or vocation? 

Mr. RiES. Pennsylvania Motor Police. 

Mr. Starnes. You are an American citizen? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You were born in America? 

Mr. RiEs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Educated in America? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And live here? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You can speak the German language? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, Mr. Barker, you may take the witness. 

Mr. Barker. Mr. Ries, you spell your name R-i-e-s? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Were you called to the office of the commissioner of 
the Pennsylvania State police and advised to go to Washington and 
report to the Dies committee? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And down in Washington you met Congressman Dies 
and Congressman Thomas and Congressman Voorhis? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And you had another trooper from the Pennsylvania 
State police with you who is also a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Born here? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Of German descent? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Who can speak German also? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. Now, you and the other Pennsylvania trooper and 
myself then proceeded by automobile to northern New Jersey? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. To make an investigation of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. In accordance with instructions from the chairman? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. You were employed during that period as an investi- 
gator for the Dies Committee? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And your pay as a Pennsylvania State trooper was 
temporarily suspended? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And then we went to Newton, N. J.? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And established contact with the Jersey State 
police? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And they provided us with a couple of sets of dead 
tags for our automobiles? 

Mr. Ries. Yes, sir. 



UN-AAIEUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8325 

Mr. Barker. And you changed your appearance and went in 
hiking clothes? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And so did the otlier man? 

Mr. RiEs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And I was a fanner down the road shovehng sand? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. And we proceeded out to the bund camp? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Barker. All right, now take it up when you went in at the 
gate — I left you there. 

Mr. RiES. On this date that Robert Barker is speaking of, Mr. 
Strickler, the other member of the Pennsylvania State police, and I 
went to the gate of Camp Nordland, situated at the gate in a small 
building where were stationed a group of young German youths. 
We approached these young men and introduced ourselves as the — 
as vacationists from Pennsylvania. 

We conversed with them in German and the one youth by the name 
of Geiter disclosed to us that he was sort of suspicious of us on our first 
appearance at the gate; that w^e resembled Newton spies. He then 
stated to me that since he saw me closer he saw the map of Germany 
on my face. 

We were then accepted into the camp as honest Germans and were 
taken to the restaurant. In German it is called "the Essenplatz." 
On our way to the restaurant we were then stopped and introduced to 
Adolf Bauer. 

We conversed in German and after conversing some time he asked 
us if we were willing to contribute a dollar for the welfare of Camp 
Nordland. We contributed each a dollar and in turn we received a 
small pink paper which was fastened in our shirt. 

Mr. Thomas. At that point, have you one of those with you? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Will you give that to the committee? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. That was to indicate you paid a dollar, was it? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. And every one who paid a dollar got one of these 
little pink slips and they put the slip in the button hole of the lapel? 

Mr. RiES. Of the shirt, yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you see many of those slips around indicating that 
many people paid a dollar? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir; and Mr. Bauer then informed us that we had 
the privilege of coming back into the w^oods where were congregated 
some other Gorman people, and where we would be allowed to have a 
few glasses of beer since we contributed to the welfare of the camp. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask another question: Was it possible to get 
any beer without paying that dollar? 

Mr. RiEs. No, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. You had to pay the dollar in order to get beer? 

Mr. RiES. It was explained to us that we were contributing to the 
welfare of Camp Nordland. 

Mr. Thomas. That is right, but you could not get the beer until you 
paid the dollar? 



8326 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. RiES. That is right. We entered the restaurant — the Essen- 
platz, where were congregated a group of German people all conversing 
in German. The songs on the victrola were German. One in par- 
ticular I recall was Deutschland Uber Allies. In other words it is 
translated literally as "Germany over all." 

There were people dancing folk dances and some were dressed in 
folk costumes. 

We then ordered our supper or dinner at that time in the German 
language. Now, this dance hall or the Essenplatz is a large, one story 
frame building. It iias a large dance floor surrounded by tables and 
chairs on the outside rim of the dance floor. On one side of the dance 
floor is a large bar from which beverages, soft drinks and things were 
sold. At one end was a kitchen. 

Now, in this dance floor surrounding the inner circle of the dance 
floor, was a large picture of Adolf Hitler, decorated with the — I think 
they caU it the — it is the red, white, and black colors of the German 
Nation — I think it is. At the other end of the dance floor was a small 
picture of George Washington. In the center of the dance floor 
hanging from the ceiling was an American flag. 

There was also displayed a smaU card with the swastika emblem 
on it. 

We were in there a short time and proceeded out to the grounds 
where were parked, I estimated, about 300 automobiles, from Penn- 
sylvania, New York, and New Jersey mostly. That is from our ob- 
servation those three States the cars were from. 

We walked around the camp and saw that there were cottages up in 
the woods and over near the speaker's stand in the forest was being 
erected a large, long building — frame building, which was claimed to 
be the boys and girls scout camp. Some of the boys were playing 
soccer. A lot of people were in their bathing suits. 

We then confronted Mr. Bauer again and asked him when we were 
going back to this forest where they had the beer. He informed me 
not to speak so loud because Deputy Sheriff Dehart from Newton was 
on the premises, and that there were some newspaper men and some 
under-cover men trying to get in the entrance. He said he had to go 
to help try to keep them from getting in. Mr. Strickler asked him if 
he needed any help we would help him. 

We then went back into the woods. 

Mr. Thomas. May I interrupt? In that dance hall were there any 
slogans of any kind? 

Mr. RiEs. Yes, sir; I forgot about that. A large sign was on the 
inner circle of the dance floor. It was a white sign and I imagine it 
was at least 40 or 50 feet long and about 4 or 5 feet wide, and on it was 
the German words "Ein Folkstom, Ein Bund, Ein Fuelirer." Liter- 
ally translated it means "One Society, One People, and One Leader." 
That was a large sign that was in the dance hall. 

As we were going back into the woods with Mr. Bauer we were 
taken to a long wooden table with a canopy over the top, and at one 
end of the table was situated a quarter barrel of beer. 

Now, this beer was distributed among the German men and women 
seated at this table. In fact there were two tables. One was out in 
the open. Mr. Strickler and I seated ourselves among the people. 
They acted suspicious at first, due to our strangeness, but after con- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8327 

versing some time with the people their suspicions lessened and they 
talked to us freely. 

Their general conversation was the war that was taking place in 
Europe and the situation in the United States. Most of the people, 
the majority of them, were pro-Nazi and talked quite considerably of 
the great things that had been taking place in Europe being done by 
Hitler. 

Mr. Thomas. Did they make any comments about the possibility 
of Hitler coming over to the Western Hemisphere or any influence 
that he might have here? 

Mr. RiES. There were no direct words to that eft'ect except the 
German Government or Hitler would conquer Europe and the German 
people woidd be dominating the world. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you also hear comparisons between the German 
form of government and our form of government here? 

Mr. RiES. They were very much opposed to Roosevelt, and they 
were in favor of Lindbergh and Hoover. 

Mr. Thomas. Did you also hear that they preferred the German 
form of government to our form of government? 

Mr. RiES. Their favoritism was leaning to Hitler — his way of 
doing. 

Mr. Thomas. And was there a man by the name of Geiter among 
those people? 

Mr. RiES. This gentleman by the name of Geiter took us, prior to 
going back to the woods, into^he restaurant. He was a very pas- 
sionate-minded pro-Hitler man. He stated to us that he was a sheet- 
metal worker and a gymnastic instructor on the side and expressed 
to us that physical training was the main thing in wiiming wars. He 
stated that he was in Germany m 1936 for 3 months, as I recall, and 
during the Olympics. 

Mr. Thomas. Did he say where he is employed now as a sheet- 
metal worker? 

Mr. RiES. No; we did not ask him that because we were just in the 
camp a short time and did not want to arouse their suspicions through 
questioning. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to ask you this: You said a while ago 
that you thought that most of the people were pro-Nazi. Now, I 
think you should explain why you think that and on what you base 
that statement. I mean we should not leave that hanging up there. 

Mr. RiES. If I may use my notes, I can refresh my memory. 

Mr. VooRHis. Go ahead. There is no reason you can't do that. 
I think we should be specific about what you mean when you say 
that. 

Mr. RiES. It has been some time, and I have to look at my notes 
on that. 

Mr. VooRHis. Could you give us again the date when this took 
place? 

Mr. RiES. June 16, 1940. 

Mr. VooRHis. Everybody understands that all people naturally 
have a lovalty to their own ancestry and to their own people and to 
the place^^from which tliev came, but this business about bemg pro- 
Nazi is a different matter because by that we understand an alle- 
giance to a particular political movement and form of government. 
That is the point I am trying to get straightened out. 



8328 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. RiES. From one statement by a gentleman at the table, he 
stated Hitler was not trying to conquer the world or to oppress the 
people, but to free them, and most of the men at the table welcomed 
world domination by Hitler. 

Mr. VoooRHis. Did they say that? 

Mr. RiES. That was their general discussion. There were no direct 
words to that effect. There was a man at the table 

Mr. Thomas. But it was evident from the conversation that cer- 
tain of them were friendly to Hitler and his Government — it was 
evident they were more friendlj'- to Hitler and his Government than 
to our Government? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Is that right? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sii*. There was a man seated next to Strickler by 
the name of H. Wunderle, who lives in Hoboken, N. J., who had the 
floor most of the time. We obtained his name from a subscription of 
a ticket or chance he bought for the ladies' auxiliary. They were 
chancing off a blanket or something lilve that and Mr. Strickler took 
the next chance and that is how we obtained his name. He stated 
he was a sailor on a steamship traveling between New York and Pana- 
ma. He emphatically stated that the Jews were insects of mankind. 
He stated he was well acquainted with the internal sentiment of 
Panama, Mexico, and Brazil; that these countries were anti- American 
and all for Hitler. He stated that the German people at the present 
time in the United States were much stronger than they were prior 
to the World War. "They are congregated in a more unified body." 

He stated also that he had an employer who was a Jew. In other 
words, in plain words, if he was fired because he was a German, he 
could make a lot of trouble. 

The conversation was that Members of Congress of the United 
States and the President were all pro-Jews and were looking out 
for the welfare of the rich. 

Mr. VooRHis. Just one question with reference to what this man 
said about Brazil and Panama, and so on; did he express himself as 
being gratified with the situation that he found to exist there? 

Mr. RiES. He expressed the feeling that the German people are 
getting more thickly populated and their feelings for Hitler and his 
doings are increasing — that their sentiments toward his actions are 
very strong. 

Mr. Wunderle stated also that the time will come when the final 
haven for Jews will be in the United States. 

As I said before, the men around the table had high regard for 
Lindbergh and Hoover. 

Mr. VooRHis. How do you mean that? 

Mr. RiES. They were talking m regard to the speeches that Lind- 
bergh had made, I think a few nights prior to June 16, and also the 
work that Hoover had done dming the World War. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean relief work and things lilte that? 

Mr. RiES. That is right. 

Mr. VooRHis. They approved of that, you mean? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir; and talked to some of the German people who 
felt that they would not bother anybody as long as nobody bothered 
them; that they wanted to live in the United States and be citizens. 
That was mostly the conversation of the more elderly class. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8329 

From one person we understood he has been living in the United 
States for 40 years. 

Air. Thomas. The younger ones were more mihtant in their speech 
and con(hict? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. What would you say about the younger people in 
alliMidance and their attitude? 

Mr. KiES. Their .attitude was very passionate^overs of Hitlerism. 
They thought he was doing a wonderful thing. 

We stayed there for some time. The general conversation was 
back and forth on that subject. We left and were given an invitation 
to come back the following day. As we left the table tiie men gave 
us a salute and the words "Auf Wiedersehen" — "until we see each 
other again," and the salute was by raising the hand. 

Mr. Striclder and I were in the camp and Mr. Barker was dressed 
as a farmer and digging a ditch. He was on the outside. In that 
mamier we were able to obtain the license nmnbers of the cars that 
entered the camp. 

Mr. Thomas. You also visited other camps, did you not? 

Mr. RiES. We can back to Camp Nordland the following Sunday, 

Mr. Thomas. I mean you went to other camps in the State? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir; we went to the camp on Federal Hill. 

Mr. Thomas. And got in there with the same ease and about in the 
same manner? 

Mr. RiES. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Thomas. And Mr. Barker, as I understand, visited still more 
places in the State? 

Mr. RiEs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Anv further questions? 

Mr. Thomas. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. This concludes this phase of the liearmg. The 
Chair wishes to make the following statement: That on yesterday 
afternoon and last evenmg we held extended executive hearings of the 
committee, lasting until midnight. More than a score of witnesses 
were heard by the committee in this executive session. 

It is noteworth}^ that these witnesses, with one exception, were 
aliens or naturalized citizens of German extraction. They were wit- 
nesses who were selected as a cross section of hundreds of available 
witnesses who had attended the meetings of the German-American 
Bund at Camp Nordland. They were owaiers of motor vehicles which 
had been discovered at these camps by the investigator and his 
assistants, with the assistance of the State officials of the States of 
New Jersey and of New York and of Pennsylvania, by which they were 
able to trace the o\\aiership of these automobiles. 

With one exception every witness readily admitted to attendance 
upon the meetings of various character at Camp Nordland. Some 
were bund meetings and some were open meetings. 

Approximatelv a third of these witnesses were members of the 
bund or had been members of the bund. Others were sympathizers. 
Quite a few went to the camp out of idle curosity and were certaiidy 
innocent of any intentional wrongdoing and professed to have no 
sympathy with the bund or its program. 



8330 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Without exception every witness who was heard in these executive 
sessions was employed in shipyards, munition plants, or industrial 
plants with governmental contracts involved in our present national 
defense program. 

The committee heard some evidence of sabotage in other plants 
but not of the nature described in the public hearings yesterday. 

The committee has been impressed by the testimony of the witnesses 
heard in the executive sessions and has noted with interest the 
demeanor and the statements made by witnesses in the open hearing. 

The committee readily understands that any national group in this 
country who are now citizens of this country but who were born 
elsewhere cling to family ties, to the heritage of their race or to the 
traditions and background of their former country. That is natural, 
and it is not to be criticized. 

No one can by merely transporting themselves from one land or 
one clime to another forget the land of his fathers or his family or 
the traditions of his native land. 

Many organizations in this country have been set up by national 
or racial groups who have members that have contributed much to 
the public welfare in this country and have made good citizens, but 
their energies and their talents have been devoted to cultivating 
better and more peaceful relations with the other national and racial 
strains in this country of ours. 

I would like to suggest to some of these sincere but evidently 
misguided and misled new citizens of ours, that this comniittee has 
judicially determined that the German-American Bund is not an 
American organization in its concept nor in its practices. By the 
overwhelming weight of the evidence this committee has received, 
the bund has been shown to be an agent of a foreign government, 
sympathetic with the political philosophy of a foreign government. 
There is no pla e in American life for such an organization, and we 
trust that these hearings will prove of some benefit to those who 
have been misled and have been misguided. 

We have not closed our hearings with reference to discoveries made 
in this huge metropolitan area of Newark and New York City and 
in this thickly populated section of our country. It may be that we 
will hold hearings here or in New York or in Washington on certain 
phases of matters already brought before the committee. 

We hope there will be no hysteria engendered by any group in this 
country at this time and that no cult nor class nor prejudice will be 
engendered. There is no time for that now. This is the time for 
unity and regardless of what the organization is if it is a legal organ- 
ization, a lawful organization, and if you feel you have a right to join 
it, and if you do join it, I hope you will direct all your energies 
toward a better understanding of American ideals and American 
principles of government and that you will give unswerving loyalty, 
whether you are a native or naturalized, to the constitutional, repre- 
sentative democracy that we enjoy. 

We will stand adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 1 o'clock the hearing was adjourned.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



OCTOBER 4, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee 

TO Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

The subconiinittee met at 10 a. m., Hon. Joe Starnes (chairman), 
presiding. 

Mr. Starnes. The subcommittee appointed by the chairman to 
investigate im-American and subversive activities and to hold hearings 
in the Newark-New York area, having held sessions in Newark earlier 
in the week and having adjourned the hearing to this date here in 
Washington is now called to order for the purpose of taking additional 
testimony. 

Let the record show the subcommittee is composed of Mr. Voorhis, 
Mr. Mason, and the chairman. 

Dr. Matthews, will you call your first witness. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner. 

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD W. WERNER, FORMER MEMBER OF THE 
0. D. OF THE GERMAN-AMERICAN BUND 

Mr. Starnes. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear 
that the testimony you wJJl give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Werner. I do. 

Mr. Starnes. After I put the preliminary questions. Dr. Matthews, 
1 shall ask you to take charge of the examination. 

State your full name. 

Mr. Werner Aly full name is Richard W. Werner. 

Mr. Starnes. \Miat is your address? 

Mr. AVerner. 302 East Ninety-fifth Street, New York. 

Mr. Starnes. AATiat has been yom- profession or occupation? 

Mr. Werner. In this country I worked as a chef. 

Mr. Starnes. As a chef? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. WTiat did you do in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. I was an office clerk. 

Mr. Starnes. Where were you born? 

Mr. Werner. In Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. When were vou born? 

Mr. Werner. December 26, 1903. 

Mr. Starnes. When did you first come to the United States? 

8331 



8332 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr. Wernek. In the year of 1926. 

Mr. Starnes. Have you been back to Germany since you came to 
the United States the first time? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I worked as a crew member on the North 
German Lloyd boat Berlin. 

Mr. Starnes. How long did you stay in Germany when you went 
back? 

In 1926 I worked on a boat and we traveled back 
I had my visa and then I stayed here in February 



Mr. Werner. 
and forth until 
1927 for good. 
Mr. Starnes. 

Werner. 

Starnes. 

Werner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Werner. 
.Mr. Starnes. 

Werner. 

Starnes. 

Werner. 
military school. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Werner. 

Starnes. 

Werner. 

Starnes. 

Werner. 

Starnes, 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



You entered the country legally and lawfidly? 

Yes; I did. 

Have you ever become naturalized? 

No. 

You are still an alien? 

That is right. 

Did vou go to school in Germany? 

Yes."^ 

What was the extent of your education? 

I went 4 years in public school and 4 years 



m 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



been a member of the 



Did you serve any in the German Army? 
I served in the Free Corps. 
The so-called Free Corps? 
That is right; after the war. 
How long? 
For 14 months. 
Ai-e you now or have you 
German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. I was a member of the German-American Bund. 
Mr. Starnes. You have been a member of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Werner. 
Starnes. 
Werner. 
Starnes. 
Werner. 
Mr. Starnes. 
Mr. Werner. 
Starnes 



Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 
Mr. 



M] 



Yes, sir. 

When did you join? 

In June 1938. 

How long were you a member of the bund? 

Up to February this year. 
February of 1940? 

That is right. 

Dr. Matthews, will you take charge of the witness 
and conduct the examination from this point? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, did you attend a military academy 
before you came to the United States? 
Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat was the name of that school? 
Mr. Werner. Imperial German Military Academy in Hanover. 
Mr. Matthews. Hanover, Germany? 
Mr. Werner. Hanover, Germany; yes. 
Mr. Matthews. How long were you a student there? 
Mr. Werner. Four years. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you leave the school? 
Mr. Werner. November 9, 1918. 

Mr. Matthews. That was 2 days before the Armistice was signed; 
is that correct? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8333 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the school closed at that time? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; the school was closed. 

Mr, Matthews. Was the school closed as a result of the general 
confusion and revolutionary movement in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you go immediately after the closing 
of the school? 

Mr. Werner. I started to work for a newspaper in my home town. 

Mr. Matthews. You took up newspaper work? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr, Matthews. How long did you engage in newspaper work in 
Germany altogether? 

Mr. Werner. Three years. 

Mr. Matthews. You were also a member of the Free Corps? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And what other occupations did you engage in 
while you were still in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. I worked as a bookkeeper and correspondent in a 
cigar and cigarette factory in Frankfurt-am-Main. After that I 
worked in the office of the North German Lloyd and from there I 
started to work on the boat as a waiter. 

]Mr. Matthews. Did you work in the offices of the North German 
Lloyd in Bremerhaven? 

Mr. Werner. In Bremerhaven, yes. 

Mr. ^L\TTHEWS. Was Bremerhaven your home? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And you came to the United States in 1927? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ^L\TTHEWS. To reside here permanently; is that correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And you have resided in the United States ever 
since that date? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Matthews. \\Tien you arrived in the United States in Feb- 
ruary 1927 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Matthews, Did you obtain employment at once? 

Mr, Werner. Yes, the following day. 

Mr. Matthews. Within 24 hours of your arrival in the United 
States you received employment? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the principal motive in your desiring 
to reside in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. The times over in Germany were so hard and the 
living conditions were so bad over there there was hardly any other 
choice but to leave Germany and look for another country where 
living conditions and working conditions were better. 

Mr. Matthews. Do vou know whether or not thousands of Ger- 
mans were migrating to the United States or attempting to migrate 
to the United States at that time, due to the adverse economic con- 
ditions in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; many, many thousands. 

Mr. ^L\TTHEWS. And you were one who came? 



8334 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. One of them. 
Mr. Matthews. Who came with that motive? 
Air. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And anticipating other questions, let me ask 
you this: From the time of your arrival in the United States when 
you received employment within 24 hours of your landing here, were 
you continuously employed up until this year? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Air. Matthews. Were you ever without employment for a period 
of more than 5 days during those 12 years? 

Mr. Werner. No, never. 

Mr. Matthews. For a period of 12 years then, you foimd that 
you were able to get a job and if you for any reason left a position 
you had no serious diihcidty in getting another one? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. I never had any difficulty. 

Air. Voorhis. May I interject? Even during the depression that 
was still true? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; I worked right through it. 

Mr. AIatthews. During 1930 and 1931? 

Mr. Werner. I always worked. 

Air. AIatthews. And your employment was that of a chef? 

Air. Werner. That is right. 

Air. AIatthews. In restaurants and dining cars? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Air. AIatthews. Did you know of an instance wherem a German 
ship arrived at the port of Houston, Tex.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. AIatthews. In which a large number of the crew jumped ship 
in order to remain in the United vStates? 

Air. Werner. Yes; that happened in 1923. 

Air. Matthews. How many members were there of the crew of 
that particular ship? 

Mr. Werner. Fifty- two. 

Air. AIatthews. Do you remember the name of the ship? 

Air. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. AIatthews. Was it the Minclen? 

Mr. Werner. The Minden; that is right. 

Mr. AIatthews. Of the 52 members of the crew how many jumped 
ship at Houston, Tex.? 

Mr. Werner. Forty-eight. 

Mr. Matthews. Did that include the captain of the ship? 

Air. Werner. The captain and the chief engineer. 

Mr. AIatthews. The captain and the chief engineer were among 
those who jumped ship in the United States? 

Air. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you know of that incident? 

Air. Werner. From certain information in my home to^vn. My 
job was to prepare wage lists for the crew members in the office in 
my home town. As soon as a boat leaves a foreign harbor we have 
to make an exact list who is on the boat and who jumps the boat. 

Mr. Matthews. And in your capacity as an employee in the 
offices of the North German Lloyd you personally dealt with this 
question of 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN TROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8335 

Mr. Matthews. FortA^-eight mcinbors of this crew jumping the 
ship in Houston, Tex.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. AVhcn was that? 

Mr. Matthews. In 1923. The point, Congressman Voorhis, is 
that Mr. Werner was one of the thousands who were getting out of 
Germany because of adverse economic conditions and going to the 
United States because they believed it was a land of opportunity; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Your first employment then was that of a chef 
when jT^ou landed ui the United States, was it? 

Mr. Werner. No; as a bus boy. 

Mr. Matthews. And how long did you engage in that work? 

Mr. Werner. About 4 weeks. 

Mr. Matthews. And what was your next job? 

Mr. Werner. Kitchen man. 

Mr. Matthews. And your next job? 

Mr. Werner. Waiter. 

Mr. Matthews. And after that? 

Mr. Werner. Chef. 

Mr. Matthews. Chef? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words you were promoted from kitchen 
boy to chef? 

Nir. Werner. Yes; I promoted myself. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever engage m any other kmd of work 
in this country, remunerative employment, other than that of working 
in restaurants and dming cars? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Were j^ou ever a member of the Friends of New 
Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. \Mien did you jom the Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Werner. 1933 or 1934; I am not quite sure. 

Mr. Matthews. And how long did you remain a member of the 
Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Werner. For about 8 months. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you state briefly why you joined the Friends 
of New Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I can. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please do so? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. There was a meeting in New York in the Turn- 
verein Hall on Eighty-fifth Street and they gave out cjuite a few leaf- 
lets and propaganda and so I decided I wanted to go over there. I 
took my wife and we both went over there. One of the storm troopers 
I know^ slightly. He met me and talked to me and asked if I don't 
like to join and so on. There were fellows in uniform. At that time 
they wore white shirts and boots, riding boots. I was raised in a 
military school and I guess it came over me again and I joined the 
Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was the leader of the Friends of New Ger- 
many at that time? 

62626— 11— vol. 14 12 



8336 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. There was a Fritz Gissibl and right after that was 
Walter. 

Mr. Matthews. Walter? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Spanknoebel? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he one of the leaders of the Friends of New 
Germany at that time? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; that is rig-ht. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you join the storm troopers in the Friends of 
New Germany or were you just a member of the organization? 

Mr. Werner. Just a member of the organization. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not join the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Were the storm troopers in the Friends of New 
Germany known as O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Are the initials "O. D." the abbreviation for the 
words Ordnungs Dienst? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You spoke of going to a meeting of the Friends of 
New Germany in the Turnverein Hall. Is that a German center? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In New York City? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; Eighty-fifth Street and Lexington Avenue. 

Mr. Matthews. Does Turnverein mean gymnastic society? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you drop out of the Fiiends of New Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Of your own volition? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you state briefly why you dropped out of the 
Friends of New Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. I had a chance to buy a house in New Jersey 
and I liked the country life. I like a little farming, so I bought the 
house and I moved out to Jersey and forgot all about it. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean you had earned enough money as a 
kitchen employee, a waiter, and a chef from the time of your arrival 
in this country to buy a house? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Over what period of years was that, from the 
time of your arrival here, until you were able to buy your own home? 

Mr. Werner. I will say about 7 years. 

Mr. Matthews. And in the course of 7 years you had saved 
enough money from your wages to buy a house in New Jersey? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Where in New Jersey did you buy that home? 

Mr. Werner. In Spottswood. 

Mr. Matthews. Spottswood, N. J.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. How long did you live in New Jersey? 

Mr. Werner. About 14 or 15 months. 

Mr. Matthews. And then did you go back to New York to live? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And to work? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8337 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you join the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. In June 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a membership book of the German- 
American Bund, No. 18344, and ask you if j^ou can identify that as 
your own membership book in tlie German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; this is my card. 

Mr. Matthews. By whom was this card issued? 

Mr. Werner. B}' James Wheeler Hill. 

Mr. Matthews. Is his name signed at the bottom of tlie card? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the date of the issuance of this card? 

Mr. Werner. 11th of July 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the name of Fritz Kulm affixed to this card as 
the bundesleitung 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Or on behalf of the bundesleitung? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. He was the leader of the bund. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Fritz Kuhn personally? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, veiy good. 

Mr. Matthews. Did 3^ou know him well enough to address him 
by the name of "Fritz"? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Does this book show that your membership dues 
were paid up? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; paid up to December 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. The stamps are affixed to your book which indi- 
cate that you had paid your dues, is that correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you also join the O. D. division of the Ger- 
man-American Bund or the storm troopers? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you join the storm troopers at the same time 
you joined the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; the same time. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you remain a member of the O. D. or the 
storm troopers from that time until you left the bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you an arm band with the letters "O. D." 
on it and the insignia of the German-American Bund and ask you if 
you can identifj^ that as your own arm band? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; this is my own arm band. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the insignia of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. The swastika superimposed on the rising sun? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Above the letters A. V.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Are these the trousers and the belt which you 
used as a member of the storm troopers of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; this is my trousers and my belt. 

Mr. Matthews. A pair of black trousers and a Sam Brown belt.'' 



8338 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the shirt which you used as a member of 
the storm troopers of the German- American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; it is my shirt. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this the black tie which you used as a part of 
your uniform? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; this is my tie. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify this as the cap which you used 
as a part of your uniform in the storm troopers? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; this is my cap. 

Mr. Matthews. What is this flag, Mr. Werner? 

Mr. Werner. This is the bund flag. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that your own flag? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; this is my own flag. I bought it in Camp 
Siegfried. 

Mr. Matthews. You bought this flag in Camp Siegfried? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. On Long Island? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthew^s. What did you use that for? 

Mr. Werner. Put it up in my home — in my apartment. 

Mr. Starnes. Wliat does the "A. V." stand for? 

Mr. Werner. Amerikadeutscher Volksbund. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you another strap, Mr. Werner, and ask 
you if you can identify that as a part of your uniform as a Storm 
trooper in the German- American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes ; this is my strap for my belt. 

Mr. Matthews. Did that go over your shoulder? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And fasten at the ends of the belt? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any special instructions at any 
time in the use of this belt? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state what they were? 

Mr. Werner. In case of fighting we took this belt off from our 
shoulders and slung it around our arm and used it as a powerful 
weapon (demonstrating) . 

Mr. Matthews. Was that a specific instruction which members of 
the O. D. received? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In the use of this strap? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. For purposes of fighting? 

Air. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. For fighting where? 

Mr. Werner. On streets and in meeting halls. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not some of the members 
of the storm troopers had metal brads put into this strap? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. To make a more effective weapon? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see any of these straps used in 
combat? 



I'X-A.MKIUCAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8339 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. On the streets? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In New York? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, on the strei^ts and in halls. 

Mr. Matthews. What particular occasions were there when these 
straps w^ere used for fighting? 

Mr. Werner. There was one in a hall where w^e had a meeting on 
Eighty-sixth Street and some Jewish war veterans came up and tried 
to break up the meeting or tried to make some noise anyhow, and 
some of my former friends took off their straps and hit them with them. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any other instructions in how to 
fight other than those which had to do with the use of this strap? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I w^as trained in jiu jitsu. 

Mr. Matthews. Were all of the members of the storm troopers 
trained in jiu jitsu? 

Mr. Werner. Ninety percent. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have regular training in jiu jitsu? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I had. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there a special night of the week set apart 
for such training? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall what night of the week that was? 

Mr. Werner. Wednesday night. 

Mr. Matthews. Every Wednesday night through the year? 

Mr. Werner. During the wintertime. 

Mr. Matthews. During the wintertime only? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Matthews. Every Wednesday night? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Members of the storm troopers w^ere instructed in 
the use of jiu jitsu? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthew^s. For what purpose was that instruction to be used? 

Mr. Werner. To learn and to use as many tricks as possible in case 
of fighting. 

Mr. Matthews. Were there any other weapons or objects used as 
w^eapons in which you received instructions for purposes of fighting? 

^Ir. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have a flaslilight as a part of your equip- 
ment? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I had. We used that as a weapon too. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you trained to use the flashlight as a weapon 
or were you just told 

Mr. Werner. We w^ere just told. I don't think we had any need 
for training for that. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this a large flashlight? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How large? 

]Mr. Werner. Fourteen inches. 

Mr. Matthews. Fourteen inches long? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Were the fla.shlights actually used in fights that 
took place during your membership in the storm troopers? 



8340 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it was. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever receive any other instructions that 
had to do with physical violence? 

Mr. Werner. In the summertime in Camp Siegfried we were 
trained in shooting rifles. 

Mr. Matthews. You had rifle practice? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Who supplied the rifles for that practice? 

Mr. Werner. The O. D. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you personally have your rifle or were they 
stored somewhere in the custody of the bund? 

Mr. W^ERNER. They were stored in the custody of the bund — in 
the custody of the O. D. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. They were brought to Camp Siegfried in the 
summertime and you were trained in the use of them? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a skilled marksman? 

Mr. Werner. I was pretty good. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive training in Germany in marks- 
jnanship? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have training in other ways with a view 
toward eventually fighting? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; we were sent out nights for some kind of war 
games out in Flushing MeadoAvs near the Worlds Fair and had mili- 
tary drills on every Monday night when we had our so-called appell 
night. 

Mr. Matthews. What is an appell night? 

Mr. Werner. In the army language it means some kind of — you 
have to be there on the place on a certain time and you have to do 
whatever you are told to do. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words it was a compulsorj^ meeting of 
the Storm Troopers, was it? 

Mr. Werner. I don't want to say exactly compulsory but it was 
almost compulsory. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, did you ever know of any occasion when 
some member of the bund had failed, or some member of the Storm 
Troopers had failed to attend one of these meetings and as a result 
got into trouble over it? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state what that incident was? 

Mr. Werner. There was one certain O. D. man — he did not show 
up for two or three nights and his group leader asked him why he 
didn't come and he had the excuse that coidd not stand up. He 
said he was working but he was not working. Somebody else saw 
liim, I guess, and he had to stand in front of the line and the O. D. 
leader was hollering at him and told him "we are soldiers over here 
and we have to do our duty; that is why 3^ou became a member of 
the O. D. It is supposed to be an honor and if you can't do that it 
is better that you drop out altogether; it is much better to have ten 
good and faithful men than one hundred unfaithful men." 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8341 

Mr. Starnes. May 1 ask a question at that point, Doctor. You 
said a moment ago you had mihtary drills in Flushing Meadows? 

Mr. Wekner. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. What kind of drill was that? Was that extended 
order drill, battle formations and patrols and that type of drill or just 
mass military drill for disciplinary purposes? 

Mr. AVerner. We had about 300 O. D. men that certain night and 
we were split in two groups, 150 men each and each group split up and 
some were in patrols of from 5 to 10. The first unit marched out 
about an hour ahead of us and there was about a two and a half mile 
square that they had to hide themselves in and we were sent after 
them to find them. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words they were divided into two groups, one 
group going out in advance to take up certain positions? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. In military formation? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And then the second group proceeded out in military 
formation to gain contact with tliis group? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Regular military drills or maneuvers? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, was this rifle practice engaged in, 
according to anything that you ever heard, simply for the purpose of 
knowing how to use firearms for hunting? 

Mr. Werner. No; not for hunthig. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat did you understand the purpose of this 
rifle practice to be? 

Mr. Werner. At the end of each summer there was some kind of a 
tournament and in this tournament there was rifle practice and the 
best shots of each unit, about twelve men, were specially trained to 
try to win a prize for their unit. 

Mr. Matthews. Why were j^ou trained in rifle practice? Was 
there ever anything said about the coming of a tune when there would 
be violent uprisings that would call for the use of firearms? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. What was that occasion known as when this up- 
rising would take place? 

Mr. Werner. This was in Turnverein Hall in Astoria. We had a 
Bezirk meeting — that means three units like Manhattan, Astoria 
and Bronx. 

Mr. Matthews. That is B-e-z-i-r-k, is it? 

Mr. Werner. B-e-z-i-r-k, that is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Did the rifle practice that you had play a part in 
the military drills — was that coordinated? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; it w^as. 

Mr. Starnes. Did they tell you why it was necessary to have these 
night maneuvers of a military nature? Were they in preparation for 
any particular event? 

Mr. Werner. Our leaders told us many, many times that we have 
to be prepared — we have to be prepared or we have to be fit for a 
certain day; when that certain day is coming that w^e know how to 
behave ourselves and so we know what to do on that day. 



8342 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. They spoke of "That Day" or "The Day" that was 
coming? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; "The Day." 

Mr. Starnes. Now, what did you understand from their instruc- 
tions and from the training that was given you, what did you under- 
stand that "that day" would mean? 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes, Or what did it mean? 

Mr. Werner. The overthrow of this Government and the estab- 
hshing of a government hke they have in Germany. 

Mr. Starnes. That was "the day" for which they told you and 
other O. D. men were preparing? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And that you should train yourselves for it and fit 
yourselves for it? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. For "the day" when National Socialism would super- 
cede this from of Government? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. You may go ahead. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, you were not a citizen of the United 
States during that entire time, were you? 

Mr. VooRHis. Before you start on that I want to ask one question. 
I want to ask Mr. Werner if he knows where the rifles were obtained 
that were used by the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. These rifles we used in Camp Siegfried were in the 
possession of the O. D. men for many years. 

Mr. VooRHis. Where did they get them, do you know? 

Mr. Werner. No, I don't know. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is all. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall any particular individual O. D. 
member who had the custody of these guns? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his name? 

Mr. Werner. Josef Resell. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that spelled R-e-s-c-h? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he stiU a member of the O. D.? 

Mr, Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. You know of your own personal knowledge that 
he was a member of the O. D. up to last February, at least, is that 
correct? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you have reason to believe he is still a 
member? 

Mr. Werner. He is still a member. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, during the entire time that you were a 
member of the storm troopers receiving training looking toward 
eventual violent uprisings, and before that to the use of violence on 
the streets and in the halls, you were not a citizen of the United States, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Werner. I was not a citizen, no. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8343 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know any other members of the (). D. 
who wore not eitizens of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, Fritz Kuhn testified before this 
committee that tlie German-American Bund at a certain time was 
ordered to remove from its rolls all persons who were not citizens of 
the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I remember that. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that testimony true? 

Mr. Werner. No; the testimony was not true. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you read about it in the papers at the time 
Mr. Kuhn testified here? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it your statement that the German- American 
Bmid did not do anything to remove from its membership rolls those 
who were not citizens of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. The bund never did any such thing. 

Mr. IMatthews. Was there any discussion of this subject in Bund 
circles or m the O. D. at the time that Fritz Kuhn testified before this 
committee? 

Air. Werner. Yes, sir; there was. 

Mr. Matthews. What was said about it? 

Mr. Werner. "Just forget about it." 

Mr. Matthews. In other words did the members of the Bund and 
the O. D. understand that Mr. Kuhn was testifying falsely on this 
question before this committee? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; everybody knew about it. 

Mr. Matthews. And were you ever told in anyway whatsoever it 
woidd be advisable for you to get out of the Bund because you were 
not a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Nobody ever said any such thing to me or anybody 
else who was not a citizen. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of a single instance in which anyone 
resigned from the Bund or from the O. D. because he was not a 
citizen of the United States? 

Air. Werner. No. 

Air. AIatthews. You never heard of such an incident? 

Air. Werner. I never heard of it. 

Air. AIatthews. And you can state that the officials of the Bund 
never took any steps whatsoever to remove from their rolls those who 
were not citizens of the United States? 

Air. Werner. That is right. Nobody ever took any steps. 

Air. Starnes. Dr. AIatthews, that is rather important testimony. 
You say you know of a number of other O. D. who are not citizens? 

Mr, Werner. That is right. 

Air. Starnes. Approximately how many would you say there are 
who are members of the bund and O. D. who are not citizens of the 
United States? What is your estimate of the percentage of the O. D. 
men that you personally knew who were not citizens? 

Air. Werner. I will say about twenty-five percent of the O. D. 
men are not citizens. 

Air. Starnes. You know that of your own personal kiiowledge 
after having been in personal contact with them? 

Air. Werner. Yes, sir. 



8344 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. That is despite the testimony of Mr. Kuhn last year? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And Mr. Kunze and Mr. Klapprott of this week? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. In which they stated no ahens were members of the 
German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Or of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. You may proceed, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any knowledge with respect to the 
membership of the bund itself on this question? You have testified 
that about 25 percent of the members of the O. D. 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. AIatthews. — were not citizens? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did that same general percentage prevail through 
the membership of the bund itself? 

Mr. Werner. To my knowledge, yes; it might even be higher. 

Mr. Matthews. Approximately how many members of the bund 
were there in the New York area where you held your membership? 

Mr. Werner. In the Manhattan area? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. I am speaking of the bund now and not the O. D. 

Mr. Werner. Up to February 1940 there were in Manhattan; 288 
members left. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the membership of 
the bund in the districts that surround New York, including New 
York? I mean by that the Bronx, Astoria, New Jersey, and the 
eastern seaboard district? 

Mr. Werner. I could not say exactly the number of them but the 
way they were talking I would say between eight and ten thousand. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see any membership records of the 
bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Matthews. In what form were those records? 

Mr. Werner. They asked for volunteers who would like to work 
in the office in the bund — the bund office and who knew how to use 
a typewriter. I volunteered and that was the occasion I saw some 
records of the membership records of the bund. 

Mr. Matthews. Were those membership records cards? 

Mr. Werner. They were cards; yes. 

Mr, Matthews. Four by six cards, approximately, would you say? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, something like that. 

Mr. Matthews. And you typed names from those cards onto 
sheets of paper? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. So you did see membership cards of the German- 
American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. From that first-hand contact with the member- 
ship records did you obtain any idea as to the number of members 
in the New York area or in the bund at large? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8345 

Mr. Werner. All I saw was membership cards from the New York 
area. 

Mr. Matthews. But it is your testimony that twenty-five percent 
or more 

Mr. Werner. Or more; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. — of tlie members of the German-American Bund 
as distinguished from the O. D. section of it, were not citizens of the 
I'Tiilod States? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a man by the name of Heintz 
Tissen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I know him very well. 

Mr. Matthews. His last name is spelled Tissen? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a member of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he also a member of the storm troopers? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he was a citizen 
of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. He is not a citizen. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you positive that he is not a citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Very positive, yes. 

IMr. Matthews. Is he still a member of the 0. D.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not his wife was a mem- 
ber of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. His wife is a member of the German-American 
Bund. 

Mr. Matthews. Is she also an alien? 

Mr. W^ERNER. She is an alien. 

Mr. Matthews. W^ere they both born in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Heintz Tissen was 
ever a member of the National Guard of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. He was a member of the National Guard. 

Mr. Matthews. Where? In New York? 

Mr. Werner. In New York, yes. As much as I know it was the 
seventy-first regiment. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Your recollection is that he was a member of the 
seventy-first regiment of the National Guard of New York? 

jMr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And he was not a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. He was not a citizen and he is not a citizen today. 

Mr. Matthews. He is not a citizen today and he is still a member 
of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Ernst Sotzek? 

Mr. Werner. He is one of the leaders; the second highest in 
command. . 

Mr. Matthews. He is the second highest in command of the O. D. . 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. His name is spelled S-o-t-z-e-k? 



3346 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Max Rapp? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I do know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he is a citizen of the 
United States? 

Mr. Werner. To my knowledge he is an ahen ; he is not a citizen. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Henry Fluegge? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he is a citizen of the 
United States? 

Mr. Werner. He is not a citizen. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he entered the 
United States illegally? 

Mr. Werner. He entered the United States illegally, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What year did he enter the United States 
illegally? 

Mr. Werner. To my knowledge 1923 or 1924. 

Mr. Matthews. And he is today a member of the German-Ameri- 
can Bund and the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. He used to be a former leader of the 
O. D. in the Friends of New Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a Mr. George Frank? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I do know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he is a citizen of the 
United States? 

Mr. Werner. I am not quite sure about George Frank but to my 
knowledge he is an alien. 

Mr. Matthews. It is your best belief that George Frank is an 
alien? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he a member of the O. D. of the German- 
American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Werner Ullrich? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I do know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he is a citizen of the 
United States? 

Mr. Werner. He is an alien. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he also a member of the O. D. of the German- 
American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; he is a group leader. 

Mr. Matthews. A group leader? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In what unit? 

Mr. Werner. In the unit of Manhattan. 

Mr. Matthews. How many members are there in a group in the 
O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. Eight members in a group and one group leader. 

Mr. Matthews. And there are three groups in a unit; is that 
correct? 

Mr. Werner. Three groups in a unit, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And Werner Ullrich was a group leader of the 
O. D. in Manhattan? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES g347 

Mr. Matthews. Do you laiow Willielm Schelegel? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; 1 know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do vou know whether or not he is a citizen of 
the United States? 

Mr. Werner. No; he is an ahen. 

Mr. Matthews. He is also an alien? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr, Matthews. Is he also a member of the German-American 
Bund and of its O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Ado Bolilken? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I know liim. 

Jvlr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he is a citizen of 
the United States? 

Mr. Werner. He is an alien. 

^Ir. Matthews. Is he also a member of the O. D. of the German- 
American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know Mrs. Hans Zimmerman? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I laiow her. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not she was an alien? 

Mr. Werner. She was an alien. 

Mr. Matthews. She was a member of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, she was. 

Mr. Matthews. It is your testimony then, Mr. Werner, that you 
personally know members of the O. D. who are still members of the 
O. D. and who are not citizens of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. And these persons are receiving training and have 
been receiving training for the use of violence at the present time, 
when there are not conflicts between members of the German- American 
Bund and citizens of the United States, and also anticipating the 
coming of "The Day"? 

Mr. W^ERNER. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear any member of the German- 
American Bund, in particular, speak of the time when "blood will 
flow in the streets of the United States"? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Wfll your please tell who that was? 

Mr. Werner. It was the O. D. leader for the eastern district, 
Herman vSchwartzmann. 

Mr. Matthews. When was it he made the statement "blood will 
flow in the streets of the United States"? 

Mr. Werner. That was in 1989 in Astoria in the Turn Hall to 
one of our big meetings, a meeting just for the O. D.'s. 

Mr. Matthews. He made that statement at a big meeting of the 
O. D.'s? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; standing in front of all of us. There were 
about 300 O. D. men and he made that statement. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they his exact words? 

Mr. Werner. Exactly his words. 

Mr. Matthews. "Blood will flow in the streets of the United 
States"? 



§348 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And what did you understand by that? 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. At what time? 

Mr. Werner. Just for "That Day," for 'The Day." 

Mr. Matthews. The coming of 'The Day"? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. When there wouhl be a revolutionary overthrow 
of the existing form of government in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; when they marched through the 
streets and go down to Wall Street and to some other places. 

Mr. Matthews. Why were you going to Wall Street? Was there 
anything said about going to Wall Street in particular on the occasion 
of this revolution? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; to get some big bankers. 

Mr. Matthews. What was to be done with the big bankers? 

Mr. Werner. Hang them up on the next tree or the next post on 
the street. 

Mr. Matthews. Statements were made to that effect? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Or in that language? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. At meetings of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. That when "The Day" came or when "The Day" 
arrived the O. D. would have the responsibility of going down to 
Wall Street among other places? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And hanging big bankers? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. At that point, Doctor, we speak here of "The Day." 
Who was to bring about that day? In other words who was going to 
bring about the revolution? Who was going to cause it? 

Mr. Werner. When that word came from the highest leader, 
I imagine. 

Mr. Starnes. When the word came from the highest leader? 

Mr. Werner. In the bund or from the National Socialist Party. 

Mr. Starnes. And who is that? 

Mr. Werner. The highest leader from the bund or National 
Socialist Party is Adolf Hitler. 

Mr. Starnes. That is when "The Day" would come? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. When he gave the word? 

Mr. Werner. Wlien he gave the word, yes. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words this was to be a revolutionary move- 
ment that would be dictated by the highest leader? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. "WHiio did not live in this country? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And the bund itself would be a part of the revolu- 
tionary movement? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And the storm troopers would play a vital part in 
that because of their training? 



UX-AMEliK AN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ^349 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And their fitness? 

Mr. Werner. That is riglit. 

Mr. Starnes. Physical and mental? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. iVnd as a result of those things "blood would How 
in the streets of the United States"? 

Mr. Werner. That is riglit. 

Mr. Starnes. And tliis attack on Wall Street was to be an attack 
on capitalism? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. To destroy capitalism and substitute therefor 
national socialism? 

Air. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. That is what you were told would come about? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. You may proceed, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. In this connection, Mr. Werner, did the names of 
specific individual bankers come up? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio were they? 

Mr. Werner. There was Morgan, Schiff, and Kulm & Loeb. 

Mr. Matthews. These men were named as bankers who would be 
the objects of the violence of the O. D. when "The Day" came? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, because they were against us — working 
against us and so forth. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, I show you a photograph and ask 
you to describe that photograph briefly? 

(Handing photograph to the witness.) 

What is that a picture of? 

Mr. Werner. This is a picture of O. D. members from Bezirk, New 
York. 

Mr. Matthews. Did that include Manhattan, the Bronx, and 
Astoria? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. This is a picture of the members of the O. D. from 
Manhattan, the Bronx, and Astoria? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know most of the individuals whose 
faces appear in that photograph? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I know most of them; about half of them. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you find yourself in that photograph? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; right here, carrying the flag [indicating]. 

Mr. Matthews. You are at the end of the right hand top row; is 
that right? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Or at the end of the top row; the right-hand end? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I ask you if you can identify on that picture 
Heintz Tissen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, here he is [indicating]. 

Mr. Matthews, Heintz Tissen is in the second row and the eighth 
man from the right-hand end of the row? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. AIatthews. Is that correct? 



8350 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify Max Rapp on that photograph? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, here [indicating]. 

Mr. Matthews. Max Rapp is in the first row of those seated? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Or the second row of the picture and the sixth man 
from the left-hand end of the row; is that correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, can you fuid Henry Fhiegge on that photo- 
graph? 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. I also would like for you to find the others, the 
ones you have named as aliens : Werner Ullrich, Wilhelm Schelegel 
and Ado Bohlken, whichever one you find first will you please point 
out? 

Mr. Werner. Henry Fluegge was not present on that occasion, I 
don't think. 

Mr. Matthews. You have not found him? 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Starnes. Dr. Matthews, I want to ask one more question. I 
asked you a series of questions awhile ago about "The Day" and the 
preparations you were making for "The Day." 

Mr, Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. The military training and night drills that you had? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And the instructions that vou had as to what you 
would do on "That Day"? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And when "That Day" arrived "blood would flow 
in the streets," and so forth. Now, that occurred in the New York 
area, did it not? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. These drills occurred in the New York area and 
these meetings were held in that area? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And these conversations, or speeches, or statements 
were made to members of the O. D. of the bund in the New York 
area and it was all while you were a member of the bund, a paid-up 
member of the bund and also a member of the O. D. yourself? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And you are speaking of actual, personal knowledge 
and contacts there? 

Mr. Werner. I do. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now are you able to identify Ullrich or Schelegel 
or Bohlken on that photograph? 

Mr. Werner. This is Schelegel here [indicating]. 

Mr. Matthews. You identify as Wilhelm Schelegel a man in the 
third row from the top of the picture, the eighth man from the right 
end? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the row? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, have you found Ullrich or Bohlken? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8Sd1 

Mr. Werner, niricli and Bohlkon are not in the picture. 

Mr. Matthews. Ullrich and Bolilken are not in this picture? 

Mr. Werner. No. These are not all the members. There were 
some missing — there were many more. 

Mr. Matthews. There were members absent on this particular 
occasion? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask this be marked for identification as exhibit 
No. 1. 

Mr. Starnes. It will be marked exhibit 1 and made a part of the 
record. 

(The photograph referred to was marked "Werner Exhibit 1") 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, did you know a member of the Ger- 
man-American Bund by the name of Schellenberger? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall what Schellenberger's first name is? 

Mr. Werner. No, I' don't recall liis right first name. To my 
best of knowledge it is Bruno but I am not quite sure. 

Mr. Matthew^s. You knew him as Schellenberger? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; as Schellenberger. 

Mr. Matthews. And you have a vague recollection his first name 
is Bruno? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He was a member of the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a member of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. He is a member of the O. D., yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he is now in the 
United States Army? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you loiow where he is at the present time in 
the United States Army? 

Mr. Werner. Fort Dix. 

Mr. Matthews. He is at Fort Dix? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That is in New York State? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. At Fort Dix? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, Fort DLx. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him personally? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any photographs of him or any other 
method of identification? 

Mr. Werner. No, not from Schellenberger. He belongs to the 

Bronx unit. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Reporter, let the record show now and for 
practically the entire hearing a quorum of the full committee is 
present in addition to the subcommittee. That quorum is composed 
of Mr. Voorhis, Mr. Mason. Mr. Dempsey and the chairman. 



62626 — 41— vol. 14 13 



g352 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, I show you a photograph and ask 
you if this is a photograph of yourself in this [indicating uniform] 
O. D. uniform that you have identified? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; that is me. 

Mr. Matthews. When was that taken, approximately? 

Mr. Werner. On Christmas. 

Mr. Matthews. Around Christmas of this last year? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, last Christmas. 

Mr. Matthews. December 1939? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that that be marked as exhibit No. 2. 
Mr. Starnes. The photograph will be marked as exhibit No. 2. 
(The photograph referred to was marked "Werner Exhibit No. 2") 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photograph, Mr. Werner, and ask 
you if that was taken at Madison Square Garden during a rally of the 
German-American Bund on February 28, 1939? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; February 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. February 28, 1939? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. IVIatthews. And is this a picture taken on the platform of 
Madison Square Garden? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Matthews. And are these men in the picture members of 
the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the individual in the foreground of this picture 
yourself? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; that is me. 

Mr. Matthews. You appear to be on the right-hand end of the 
line on the platform of Madison Square Garden that night in your 
O. D. uniform? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that this be marked as exhibit No. 3. 

Mr. Starnes. It may be marked "Exhibit 3" and made a part of 
the record. 
(The photograph referred to was marked "Werner Exhibit No. 3") 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, do you know a man by the name of 
Hans Meyer? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I know him very well. 

Mr. Matthews. M-e-y-e-r? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a citizen of the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliere is he now, do you know? 

Mr. Werner. He is in Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a member of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he a member of the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. He was a leader of the O. D. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know when he went to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. In the summer of 1939. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you help me find liis photograph in this 
pile of pictures? 

Mr. Werner. This is him. 



rX-AMEKK'AN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8353 

Mr. Matthews. Ho is in the first row of the photograph, the fifth 
from the end, is tiuit correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. That is Hans Meyer? 

Mr. AVerner. Hans Meyer. 

Mr. Dempsey. Why did he go to Germany? 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state why he went to Germany, 
Mr. Werner? 

Mr. Werner. Well, his vocation is a mechanic. He was called 
back by the German Government with everything paid, his trip for 
himself, for his wife and child and a job over in Germany — a small 
liouse and garden. 

Mr. Dempsey. What kind of a job did he receive over there? 

Mr. Werner. He worked in an airplane factory — in a Hermann 
Goering airplane factory. 

Mr. Matthews. In Magdeberg, Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. You say he was called back. You stated he was 
an American citizen, didn't you? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. But he was called to Germany by the German 
Government? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, through the German consul in New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see him at the time of his departure from 
the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you talk with him about his going to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. MaTTHEWs. Did you understand from him that he had received 
both instructions and passage from the German consulate in New 
York? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. To go to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Was the individual in the German consulate in 
New York, the Consul Hans Borchers? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; consul general. 

Mr. Matthews. Consul B-o-r-c-h-e-r-s delivered instructions to 
Hans Meyer? 

Mr. Werner. B-o-r-c-h-e-r-t. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there a "t" in it? 

Mr. Werner. I think so. 

Mr. Matthews. I think not but we can verify that. Hans Meyer 
received instructions and passage for himself and family? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Despite the fact that he was an American citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. From the consul general in New York to go to 
Germany and work in the Hermann Goering airplane factory? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Last summer, a year ago? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Just prior to the outbreak of war? 

Mr. Werner. About in June. 



8354 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Was it understood in the O. D. and German- 
American Bund that American citizens who were members of these 
organizations were also subject to orders from Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That was understood. 

Mr. Matthews. That was the understanding? 

Mr. Werner. It was understood. 

Mr. Matthews. There is no doubt in your mind about that? 

Mr. Werner. No doubt in my mind about that. 

Mr. Matthews. About the fact that anyone who was a member of 
the O. D. and the German- American Bund were subject to orders from 
Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. He isn't the only one who went back. 
There was another citizen from this country. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please name someone else who was a 
citizen of the United States and was called back to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. There was Hans Asch; he was a mechanic too. 

Mr. Dempsey, When you say "called back," you mean ordered 
back? 

Mr. Werner. I guess that is almost the same. 

Mr. Dempsey. It was not clear in my own mind. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did they receive instructions to go back? 

Mr. Werner. I will say yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any instance in which a member 
of the O. D. or the German- American Bund received instructions to 
go to Germany and did not comply? 

Mr. Werner. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did not comply with those instructions? 

Mr. Werner. No; I don't know about that. 

Mr. Matthews. You don't know of such instances? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. But you do know of your first-hand conversation 
with Asch and Meyer? 

Mr. Werner. No; Asch went overnight. He didn't have time to 
say goodby to anyone. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean he received instructions and went 
immediately? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Without even an opportunity to say goodbye? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you know that he went to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. He wrote a letter to some of his friends over here. 

Mr. Matthews. Which indicated that he was in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. He was in Germany and working in the factory in 
the southern part of Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Rudolf Markmann 
is now in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he is in Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he receive instructions to go to Germany or 
did he escape to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. No; I would say he ran away from here. That was 
in the beguining of the investigation of Fritz Kulm. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that a little more than a year ago? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 



UX-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8355 

Mr. Matthews. And at that time Markmann decided to get out of 
the United States? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, disappear. 

Mr. Matthews. And go to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he an American citizen? 

Mr. Werner. To my knowledge he was. 

Mr. Matthews. As far as you Imow he was an American citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you loiow any peculiar circumstances sur- 
rounding his desire to get out of the United States and go to Germany? 

Mr, Werner. Yes; he sneaked out of this coimtry. He wanted 
nobody to know about it. Even his plans were to hide himself in 
a box and some of us should carry him up on the boat in the box and 
leave the box and then he would get out, but we did not do that. 

Mr. Matthews. That is he wanted to be carried aboard ship in a 
box? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; one of my friends brought him on the boat just 
5 mmutes before sailing time. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was that, Josef Kesch? 

Mr. Werner. Josef Resch, that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he your roommate? 

Mr. Werner. Yes ; I lived with him. 

Mr. Matthews. You lived with Josef Resell? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And Josef Resch took Markmann aboard ship? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you knew about Hans Meyer going to Ger- 
many because he received mstructions from the German consul gen- 
eral in New York. Did members of the O. D. go down to the boat 
to see Hans Meyer off? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; all the members. 

Mr. Matthews. All the members? 

Mr. Werner. All the members, that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat boat did he sail on, do you recall? 

Mr. Werner. It was the Hamburg-American Line, the New York 
or the Hamburg. 

Mr. Matthews. Either the New York or Hamburg? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the Hamburg-American Line? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did vou go down to the ship personallv to see 
him off? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. VooRHis. To see who off? 

Mr. Matthews. Hans Meyer. And you say many other members 
of the O. D. went down to the boat to see him off? 

Mr. Werner. There were about 50 or 60 members of the O. D. 

Mr. ]\L\TTHEws. Were you received aboard ship in any special 
manner by ship officials? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; we were led to a special dining room. 
It was just reserved for him so he could have some kind of farewell 
party. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you all in O. D. uniforms? 



3356 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. Not in fiill uniform. We had our black trousers, 
grey shirt, and black tie. We were not allowed to go on a German boat 
in the full uniform. 

Mr. AIatthews. That is you did not have the cap on? 

Mr. Werner. Did not have the cap on or we didn't have the belt 
on. We had this arm band on. 

Mr. Matthews. You had the arm band on? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; but not the full time. We sung a couple of 
songs, one special song, and then we put on this arm band. 

Mr. Matthews. But you had the trousers and the grey shirt and 
black tie? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And part of the time you had the arm band on? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And you were given a special dining room by the 
officials of the boat? 

Mr. Werner. We were given a special dining room, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that by the captain, or do you know? 

Mr. Werner. I am not quite sure, but I guess they would have to 
have the captain's permission. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did these people want to go back to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I guess they wanted to go back. They pictured 
everything so nice and quiet and peaceful and plenty of work and 
good living conditions over in Germany, so I guess everybody was 
wilhng to go. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you know of any instance that might 
be called an exception to that, where any one of these persons actually 
wept because he had to leave the United vStates under orders? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was that? 

Mr. Werner. Hans Meyer, and one fellow by the name of Hans 
Zimmerman. 

Mr. Matthews. Did they say they preferred so much to stay in 
America that they actually wept when they had to leave the United 
States to go to Germany — did they explain it? 

Mr. Werner. Leaving so many friends l)ehind and there were 
some good fellows — I guess that touched their heart. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Ernst Sotzek was in 
Germany recently? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Matthews. Ernst Sotzek is now what in the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. He is O. D. leader for the unit of Manhattan. 

Mr. Matthews. He is the leader for the Manhattan unit of the 
O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlien was he in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. To my best knowledge the last time was 1936 or 
1937. I am not quite sure. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear him say anything about 
whether or not he had wanted to remain in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. What did he say about it? 

Mr. Werner. One of his brothers is a very high official in the Nazi 
Party in East Prussia and he went back over there for a visit. He 



rX-AMKKICAX I'UdPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8357 

made a remark that he would like to stay over there and his brother 
and some other officials told him to go back to the United States, 
become a citizen — he could do much more good for German}^ and for 
the ideals they have over here than over there; they have plenty of 
men over there, but they need some good men out in the United 
States. 

Mr. Matthews. So he was advised to return to the United States 
despite his desii-e to remain in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Because bund leaders and Nazi leaders were 
leaders in the United States? 

.Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And more than he was needed in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And he came back to the United States and is 
now the O. D. leader for the unit of Manhattan? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. Was he a citizen of the United States at the time 
this happened in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. No; he was not. 

Mr. Dempsey. Is he a citizen now? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. He became a citizen at the direction of the officials, 
of the Nazi Party? 

Mr. Werner. According to his word, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. At this point, Mr. W^erner, I would like to ask 
j^ou if you have recently registered as an alien in compliance with 
the recently enacted statute in this country? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall when you registered as an alien? 

Mr. Werner. That was the third or fourth day after it became the 
law. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that about the middle of September? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I would say so. I don't loiow exactly the 
date, but I am sure it was the third or fourth day after we had to 
register. 

Mr. Matthews. When you registered did you give the information 
that you had been a member of the German- American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I marked down I was a member of the 
German- American Bund up to December 1939 because I only paid 
dues up to there. 

Mr. Matthews. But you continued your active association up to 
the end of February; is that correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. But you were a dues-paying member up to the 
end of December? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Does Sotzek's brother in East Prussia occupy the 
position of Gauleiter as far as you loiow? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. That is his position in East Prussia? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Arid it was his brother who advised him to return 
to the United States to take up a position of leadership in the bund? 



8358 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know G. Wilhelm Kunze personally? 

Mr, Werner. Yes; I know him very good. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you laiown him for a number of years? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; since I was in the bund I know him and for the 
last half a year in the bund I had a chance to laiow him veiy well. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have any contact with him after he 
became the fuehrer 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Of the German-American Bund as a successor to 
Fritz Kuhn? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Kunze ever expressed 
any deshe to remain in Germany and not to return to the United 
States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you learn that? 

Mr. Werner. One of the officers from the bund, one of the higher 
officers from the bund, told me and some other fellows that Kunze 
would like to stay on one of his visits — wanted to stay in Germany 
and even begged them and they told him "no," that he has to go back 
to the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that high official who told vou that Gustav 
Elmer? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. AIatthews. And Gustav Elmer now is the treasurer of the 
German -American B und ? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall whether or not Kunze was in Ger- 
many in 1938? 

Mr. Werner. I am not quite sure. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze testified before this committee a few 
days ago that he was in Germany in 1938 and also in 1937. \Mien he 
returned from Germany did he address meetings of the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Matthews. OroftheO. D.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he describe what he had seen in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he described everything was wonderful and he 
praised the conditions over in Germany sky high. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, in the course of his addressing the meetings 
of the bund after his return from Germany on either one of these occa- 
sions, did he say anything about having met high officials of the Nazi 
Party or of the German Government while in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; he did. 

Mr. Matthews. He did? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Whom did he say he had met? 

Mr. Werner. He met former bund members, high officials now in 
Germany — talked to them, and to our knowledge he even met Hitler. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat do you mean by "to your knowledge he 
even met Hitler"? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8359 

Mr. Werner. I don't know if he was the one who said that he 
met him but everyono from tlio O. D. who talked about it said Fritz 
Kuhn met Hitler and other members 

Mr. Matthews. TMiether or not Mr. Kunze did meet Hitler is 
the question. Was it the opinion of the O. D. that Kunze met Hitler 
in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes ; that he talked with him. 

Mr. M.\tthews. That he as well as Kuhn had met Hitler? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. During his visit to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. TMiat occupation was Kunze alleged to have been 
engaged in prior to his assumption of positions in the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. Werner. To my knowledge and to the other fellows' knowledge 
he was a teacher and I was surprised a couple of days ago wdien I was 
reading the paper that he was a chauffeur and mechanic and so forth. 

Mr. Matthews. During the year that you laiew him in the 
leadership of the bund did you ever hear him or anyone else in the 
bund refer to him as a chauffeur? 

Mr. Werner. Never. 

Mr. Matthews. You had no idea that he had been a chauffeur? 

Mr. Werner. No; never. 

Mr. Matthews. Most of his adult life? 

Mr. Werner. Never. 

Mr. Matthews. As he testified before this committee? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. It was the belief in the bund that he had been a 
teacher? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kunze did not testify that he had ever been 
a teacher; he testified that he had been a chaufl'eur-mechanic. 

Mr. Starnes. I believe he testified he had been a chauffeur- 
mechanic since 1933 and prior to that time he was in Trinidad and 
other islands of the West Indies where he held several positions. 
But since 1933, if I recall his testimony correctly, he has been a chauf- 
feur-mechanic. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he said anything 
about meeting Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. He said he met Walter Kappe at 
Stuttgart. 

Mr. Matthews. At Stuttgart in the Ausland Institute? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether ho met Fritz Gissibl? 

Mr. Werner. He did. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that also in Stuttgart in the Ausland In- 
stitute? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, you know that from his having said so? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. He told O. D. members that? 

Mr. Werner. He told O. D. members and members from the 
German-American Bund — at a membership meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he say he had met Josef Schuster? 



3360 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he make particular reference to Kappe and 
Gissibl and Schuster because they had all been in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; they were former members and leaders 
from the Friends of New Germany and he talked to them. He was 
wined and dined. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know what position Josef Schuster now 
occupies in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. He is second district leader or Gauleiter from 
Bavaria. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the Nazi Party in Bavaria? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. At least that is the report you got in this country 
as to his activities? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Were Kappe and Gissibl and Schuster American 
citizens or do you laiow? 

Mr. Werner. I could not say for sure. Kappe was not a citizen, 
I know that, and Schuster 

Mr. Starnes. Gissibl's testimony was that he was not an American 
citizen. That was the testimony we received in 1938. He testified 
that he was an alien and that he returned to Germany. As I recall 
one of his brothers was a citizen. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever meet Gissibl? 

Mr. Werner. Fritz Gissibl, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. The one who is now in Germany? 

Mr. Werner, Yes, sir; as a member of the Friends of New Ger- 
many. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Walter Kappe? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I saw him when he was talking at meetings 
and so forth. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know Josef Schuster? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Is there any particular significance attached to these 
men? They have been in this country and were connected with the 
Friends of New Germany and the German-American Bund. They 
are now in the Ausland Institute in Stuttgart? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; and Kunze stated he met no officials of 
the party while he was in Germany. He said he went down to see his 
parents-in-law in Germany. 

Now, do you know whether Rudolf Markmann occupies any position 
in Germany at the present time? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he does. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he an official of the party or of the Government 
in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. As much as — I will say to the best of my knowledge 
yes — he has — he is working for the party. 

Mr. Matthews. How did Hans Zimmermann happen to leave the 
United States? You have identified him already as a member of the 
German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; and a former member of the Friends of New 
Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. And also an O. D. member? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §361 

Mr. ^^ATTHEAvs. Do vou knoAV how he happened to leave the 
United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he had to leave this country — he had his 
deportation papers. 

Mr. Matthews. He was deported? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sii". 

Mr. Matthews. Because he was in the country illegally? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he deported in June 1939 or thereabouts? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he express any great regret at having to 
leave the United States and go back to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. No, no; he was not sorry. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know a man by the name of Albert 
Born? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I know him. 

Mr. Matthews. It he a bund member? 

Mr. Werner. He is a bund member. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where he is employed at the present 
time? 

Mr. Werner. He works in the airplane factory in Long Island. 

Mr. Matthews. In an airplane factory on Long Island, N. Y.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the name of the factory? 

Air. Werner. No, I don't know it. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, after you had your drills — I believe they were 
were on Monday night, were they not? 

Mr. Werner. Every Monday night, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In the Bund, was there anything in the nature 
of a pledge taken by the members at the conclusion of the meeting? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat was that? Will you please describe that? 

Mr. Werner. After the meeting was over — that was at 11 o'clock, 
we had to stand up and we would sing the second verse of the bund 
song and then the O. D. leader would shout "attention." He would 
say it in German. 

Mr. Matthews. "Achtung"? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. And then his words were: "For our 
spiritual leader, for our bund, for our O. D., and for what it stands" 

Mr. Matthews. Now, who is referred to in the expression: "To 
our spiritual leader"? 

Mr. Werner. Adolf Hitler. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the way in which Hitler is designated in the 
bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. First this salute or pledge was "for our spiritual 
leader" and that is for Adolf Hitler? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. AL\TTHEWS. And then, "for our fuehrer in this country"? 

Mr. Wbiiner. That is right, yes— no, no, — yes, "for our political 
leader," for our bund leader. 

Mr. Matthews. That would be Kunze at the present time? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And then for the O. D.? 



§362 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And the German "sieg heil, sieg heil, sieg heil" — 
"hail victory, hail victory, hail victory"? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Kimze testified a few days ago there wasn't 
any connection between the German-American Bund and the Nazi 
Party or the Nazi Government in Germany. 

If I recall correctly, Mr. Chairman, he went so far as to say he was 
opposed to the spread of nazi-ism in the United States. 
■ Mr. VooRHis. That was his testimony. He said that three times. 

Mr. Matthews. As Congressman Voorhis said, he said that three 
times. Have you any statement to make about whether or not the 
German-American Bund is opposed to the spread of nazi-ism in the 
United States. 

Mr. Werner. No; it is not opposed to it. They are for it. 

Mr. Matthews. Is there any doubt whatever in your mind, Mr. 
Werner, that the German-American Bund is an agency which is 
under the control of a foreign principal in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; it is my firm belief and my firm conviction 
that the German-American Bund is some kind of an agency of the 
National Socialist Party in Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. You are not trying to give the exact legalistic 
description of the connection, but you are quite positive that there 
is a connection? 

Mr. Werner. ^Yliatever we said or whatever we did it was in favor 
of the National Socialist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you laiow August Klapprott? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I do know him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know him very well? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear Klapprott say anything about 
"Der Tag," ''The Day"? 

Mr, Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What was his comment about "The Day"? 

Mr. Werner. Well, one of his comments was that "The Day 
isn't so far away." He said: "We will have it our way — the way 
we are working for." I could not say exactly his words. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did you hear him make such a statement 
as that — a statement referring to "The Day"? 

Mr. Werner. This was in Brooklyn in one of the big O. D. meet- 
ings. There was about — between four and five hundred O. D. men 
there. 

Mr. Starnes. The public hearings are now recessed until 1 o'clock 
p. m., this date. 

(Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock p. m., the hearing was recessed until 
1 o'clock p. m., the same day.) 

after recess 

Mr. Starnes. You may proceed. Dr. Matthews. » 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Werner, when Fritz Kuhn testified before 
the committee he stated the records of the German-American Bund 
had been destroyed. This morning you testified that you vohmteered 
yom- services to copy names from bund membership cards onto sheets 
of paper. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8363 

Do you know whother thoro was any connection })ctwccn this 
work which you chd and the anticipated destruction of the records? 

Mr. Werner. To my best knowledge the cards were destroyed 
and the Hsts were kept. 

Mr. Matthews. It was your understandinii; the cards were to be 
destroyed and the hsts, which wouhl be much smaller in bulk than the 
cards 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Would be preserved as membership records? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And that was the understanding you had whea 
you did this work? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anyone who, for a time at least, 
possessed the membership records in the form of the sheets which 
you had helped to cop}^? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was that? 

Mr. Werner. O. D.'s man Hans Kramer. 

Mr. Matthews. What was Hans Kramer's occupation? 

Mr, Werner, He owns a barber shop on Seventy-fourth Street 
near Second Avenue. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photograph which appears to have 
been made at Camp Nordland ■ 

Mr. Werner. That is right, 

Mr, Matthews. Since the words "Camp Nordland" are on the 
building in the background of the picture? 

Mr, Werner, That is right, 

Mr, Matthews, And I will ask you if you can identify any one of 
the persons in that photograph as Hans Kramer? 

Mr. Werner, This man here [indicating]. 

Mr, Matthews, The one man in the group whose full face view is 
toward the camera? 

Mr. Werner, That is right, 

Mr, Matthews, Is that correct? 

Mr, Werner, That is correct, 

Mr, Matthews, Just for the purpose of other identification, who 
is that [indicating]? 

Mr, Werner. August Klapprott, 

Mr, Matthews, Do you know who this is [indicating]? 

Mr, Werner, William Kunze, 

Mr, Matthews, And the other man? 

Mr. Werner, Mr, Keegan, 

Mr, Matthews, General counsel for the German-American Bund? 

Mr, Werner, That is right, 

Mr, Matthews, I ask that that be marked in evidence, 

Mr, Starnes, The photograpli referred to will be marked exhibit 
No, 4 and made a part of the record, 
(The photograph referred to was marked "Werner Exhibit No. 4.") 

Mr. Matthews. Now, was it your understanding that Kramer 
kept these membership records in the form of typewritten sheets in 
his barber shop? 



J^364 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. In his apartment behind the barber shop. 

Mr. Matthews. In his apartment behind the barber shop? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see them there or how did you know 
they were there? 

Mr. Werner. He told me that himself and I saw James Wheeler 
Hill, the former secretary, gomg in the back — going in the apartment 
and looking over some books and some lists. 

Mr. Matthews. You were present when that took place? 

Mr. Werner. I was present when that happened, yes, 

Mr. Matthews. You attended the Madison Square rally of the 
bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. On February 20, 1939. You have testified to 
that already? 

Air. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you laiow how much money was collected at 
that meeting? 

Mr. Werner. James Wlieeler Hill said downstairs in one of the 
lobbies when we were off duty for a half hour, he said there were 
eight thousand two hundred-and-some-odd dollars collected. 

Mr. Matthews. Hill was at that time treasurer of the Bund, was 
he not? 

Mr. Werner. Secretary of the bund. 

Mr. Matthews. Secretary? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he was the right-hand man to Kuhn. 

Mr. Matthews. Told you at the meeting that night 

Mr. Werner. Yes; and some other O. D. members, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. That eight thousand two hundred-and-some-odd 
dollars had been collected? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. At the Garden that night? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you know how much money was reported 
later to the membership of the bund as having been collected at that 
Madison Square Garden rally? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; $825; something like that. 

Mr. Matthews. $82,5 was reported as having been collected? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And yet Hill told you that $8,000 had been 
collected ? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any idea how many people were 
present at the Garden that night? 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Was the Garden filled? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; filled up to the last seat. I don't know 
how much it holds. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this a photograph of the meeting at the Garden 
that night? 

Mr. Werner. Between twenty and twenty-two thousand, and 
many more cards sold on the outside. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean tickets were sold? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, to people who couldn't get in. 



I'X-AMKKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8365 

Mr. Matthews. Is that another photograph of the Garden meeting 
that night? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Docs it appear that a very hirge nnmher of 
people in tiie aiulience are giving the Nazi salute m this photograph? 

Mr. Werner. Almost every one. 

Mr. Matthews. Would it be your own nndcrstandnig that with 
twenty-two or twenty-three thousand persons present there must 
have been more than $800 taken in in collections? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sure. Some of the collection boxes had checks 
for more than $100 and there were $50 and $20 bills in the collection 
box. I would say about 100 O. D. men went around with the col- 
lection boxes antl almost everyone reported that they were filled up 
to the top — you could not put a dime in any more in these boxes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you were on duty that night in the O. D.? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I was carrying the flag. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I would like to mark these photo- 
graphs as exhibits. 

]\[r. Starnes. The photographs will be marked "Exhibits" and 
received in evidence. 

(The photographs referred to were marked "Werner Exhibits Nos. 

5 and 6.") 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the names of any of the larger con- 
tributors to the German-American Bund; I mean financial contrib- 
utors, of course? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; one bund member, one Dr. Klein. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where he lives — in what city? 

Mr. Werner. I think Eighty-seventh Street in Manhattan, near 
Second Avenue. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Dr. O. H. Klein? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever yourself solicited contributions 
from him for the bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. That is, you have been assigned the work of going 
around to get money from Dr. Klein? 

Mr. Werner. No; they didn't tell me to go to Dr. Klein, but I 
went there because I knew he was one of the best spenders for the 
Bund. He never refused. As soon as I was handed the list that was 
my first thing, to approach him. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know any of the other larger contributors 
to the financial treasury of the Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; a baking firm— concern — Krueger. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you spell the name? 

Mr. Werner. K-r-u-e-g-e-r. 

Mr. Matthews. Krueger? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The Krueger baking concern? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. He owns quite a number of trucks. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it Mr. Krueger himself who was one of the 
larger contributors to the Bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, yes. 



8366 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you happen to know whether he is a man of 
considerable wealth or not? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you Icnow any of the large contributors? 

Mr. Werner. One woman in Jersey. I just don't recollect her 
name. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see her name in any of the records 
of the Bund as a contributor? 

Mr. Werner. Her name was mentioned in one of the meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Did she live in Short Hills, New Jersey? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. She loaned the Bund $1,000 for 
Fritz Kuhn's bail and she did not ask for it — she did not ask for the 
$1,000 back. She left $500 in the bund. 

Mr. Matthews. Would you be able to identify her name if I 
have it to you? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I would. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it Mary Fertsch? 

Mr. Werner. Mrs. Fertsch, that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Mary Fertsch of Short Hills, N. J.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever go around to merchants, German 
merchants in New York to solicit contributions for the German- 
American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Were these merchants, these German merchants 
all members of the bund or sympathizers with the bund? 

Mr. Werner. No; not sympathizers. In one way, yes; but not 
all members. 

Mr. Matthews. Some of them were members and some were not? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you make it a point not to go to German 
merchants who were not sympathizers with the bund, or did you go 
to all German merchants you knew about? What was your practice? 

Mr. Werner. For collecting money I went to all the merchants I 
know and I was dealing with and asked for contributions. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, do you know anything about a practice of 
imposing something like a boycott on German merchants who refused 
to contribute to the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I myself threatened some of them — I don't 
want to say "threatened," but I told them I would not buy there 
anymore and I would tell my friends not to come in there anymore. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not that was the general 
practice? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it was. 

Mr. Matthews. For solicitors from the bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. To give at least implied threats of a boycott to 
merchants who refused to contribute? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; everybody was doing that. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not the bund has active 
sympathizers in the police department of New York City? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any idea about how many such 
sympathizers there are? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES' 8367 

Mr. Werner. Oh, I would say a few hundrcHl in the New York 
Fohce Dopartniont. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever met them personally — any of 
them? 

Mr. Werner. One of them 1 met quite often — almost at every 
meeting we luul. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know that he was a sympathizer with 
the German-American Bund? In what way did he express his 
sympathy? 

' Mr. Werner. He attended all meetings; he bought all papers and 
he thought we were right — whatever we were doing was correct and he 
was with us — not only he, but quite a few members of the police 
department are with us. He used to have a swastika ring at every 
meeting he attended. 

Mr. Matthews. He wore a swastika ring? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know his name? 

Mr. Werner. No; I don't. I will say that Heintz Tissen is workmg 
for his w'lic in a beauty parlor. 

Mr. Matthews. Heintz Tissen who was mentioned this morning in 
your testimony? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Working for the wife of this ■ 

Mr. W^ERNER. Policeman. 

Mr. Matthews. Policeman? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In a beauty parlor in New York? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the only way you can identify the 
policeman? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been out to Camp Siegfried? 

Mr. Werner. Very often. 

Mr. Matthews. You have been there often? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not boys from California 
who were spending their vacation at Camp Siegfried were sent to 
Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; there were four boys from a military acad- 
emy from California that came up to Camp Siegfried. They wore the 
uniform and they left Camp Siegfried. They were in Camp Siegfried 
for 1 week and they were going to Germany. They told us that the 
trip was paid for by the German Government and they were spending 
some months in Germany as guests of the German Government. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether the bund ever directly or 
indirectlv sent other young people to Germany for propaganda pur- 
poses; and by " indirectly ""l mean the bund was active in getting up 
such delegations? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Of tourists to go to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In order that they might come in contact with the 
National Socialist system there? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

62626 — 41 — vol. 14 14 



8368 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Aiid come back to the United States and prop- 
agandize on behalf of the Nazi movement? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who receives the propaganda Hter- 
atiire from Germany to distribute on behalf of the bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is one O. D. man, Ernst Schwenck. 

Mr. Matthews. Does literature come directly to Schwenck from 
Germany? 

Mr. Werner. It comes to him directly from Germany as far as I 
know; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, how do you connect him with it? 

Mr. Werner. Every week we were getting the German papers, 
what they call the Black Corps and the Sturmer. They were printed 
just 1 week before I received them. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean they were printed in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; if today is the 4th or 5th of October they were 
printed maybe the 27th or 28th of September in Germany. I get 
them just 1 week or 8 days later. He was the one who sold us these 
papers. 

Mr. Matthews. At least you know that much, that he sold you the 
literature that came from Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And was that his special responsibility in the 
bund — in the work of the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it was. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you under any kind of compulsion, moral 
compulsion or otherwise, to buy this literature? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; moral compulsion 1 will say. If he did not sell 
his papers he stood up and made a speech that he ordered them and he 
is getting these papers and he expects that everyone at least gets one 
or two of these papers. 

Mr. Matthews. Before the outbreak of the war when German 
boats and crews were still coming into New York harbor, did the crew 
members go to the Germ an -Am eric an Bund camp as the guests of the 
camp? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; sometimes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did that happen often or infrequently? 

Mr. Werner. About four or five times I would say for sure. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean you personally knew of four or five 
instances? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In which the crew members of German ships were 
the guests of the camp? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What camp was that? 

Mr. Werner. Camp Siegfried. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not each German boat 
that came into New York Harbor had its own propaganda feuhrer 
or leader? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it had. 

Mr. Matthews. And did these propaganda leaders from the 
German boats visit the camps of the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; sometimes, 

Mr. Matthews. Did they make speeches? 



rX-AMEIUCAN PUOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8369 

Mr. Werner. Not in the camp ])ut in meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. In meetings of the bnnd? 

Mr. Werner. In meetings of the bund; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. As a member of the O. D. of the German-American 
Bimd did yon (^ver do guard duty at the meetings of Joe McWilhams 
of the Christian Mobihzers? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it the common practice for the O. D. to 
be assigned to do guard duty at the meetings of Joe McWilhams? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AIatthews. Do you recall any occasion on which George 
Deatherage of the organization known as the Knights of the Wliite 
Camellia addressed meetings of the German-American Bimd? 

Mr. Werner. That was a meeting of the German-American Bund 
and the Christian Mobilizers together in the Bronx in front of Ford 
Park or something like that — a big park. 

Mr, Matthews. Was that Innisfail Park? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Innisfail Park in the Bronx? 

Mr. Werner. In the Bronx, yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. That was a joint meeting of the German-American 
Bund and the Christian Mobilizers? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Addressed by Joe McWillaims? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And by George Deatherage? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; and by Fritz Kuhn. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Did you ever hear of an organization known as 
the Kyffhauserbund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. K-y-f-f-h-a-u-s-e-r? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that organization formerly known as the 
Steel Helmets or in German, Stahlhelm? 

Mr. Werner. Steel Helmets — Stahlhelm. 

Mr. Matthews. What do you know about the nature of the 
Kyffhauserbund ? 

Mr. Werner. I woidd say it is an organization of former German 
war veterans and pro-Nazis. In the meetings they don't have any 
American flags — only the swastika there. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever been to a meeting of the Kyff- 
hauserbund? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where they meet? 

Mr. Werner. In the KJreutzer Hall. 

Mr. Matthews. You know the Kyft'hauserbund did meet at the 
Kreutzer Hall? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you know that? 

Mr. Werner. I was working in the Kreutzer Hall as a chef and I 
happened to go up to one of these halls and they were decorating the 
haU. 

Mr. Matthews. They were decorating the hall for a meeting of the 
Kyffhauserbund? 



3370 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Matthews. When you were working in the hall? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not attend the meeting but you saw them 
decorating the hall? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlien you say "German war veterans" you mean 
Germans who fought in the German Army? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In some war or other? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; that is right, in the last war. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the relationship of 
the German consul's office to the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. On a couple of occasions I saw one of the secretaries — 
I guess he is a secretary — in the German consulate. He was inside 
in the office of the German- American Bund, and one of the leaders was 
saying, "There is still a higher leader than Kuhn." At that time Kuhn 
was the leader. 

Mr. Matthews. He said: "There is still a higher leader in the 
German-American Bund"? 

Mr. Werner. Kunze made the remark. 

Mr. Matthews. That there was someone in the consulate 

Mr. Werner. No; not in the consulate, but between us, we know 
who it was. He was one of the secretaries in the German consulate. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, Kunze made a statement that 
there was someone in this comitry 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio was higher in the leadership of the bund than 
Fritz Kuhn? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Or himself? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; who gave orders to the bund. 

Mr, Matthews. Who gave orders to the bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And you say that you understood that that man 
was one of the secretaries in the German consulate? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In New York? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the man was? 

Mr. Werner. (No answer.) 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know his name? 

Mr. Werner. It was something like Ohnen or Ohner. I am not 
quite sure of the name. 

Mr. Matthews. How would you spell it, approximately? 

Mr, Werner. I would spell it O-h-n-e-r or O-h-n-e-n. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know which it was? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. But when you heard the name, that is the im- 
pression it made upon you, is that right? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Ohner or Ohnen? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §371 

Mr. Matthews. A secretaiy in the German ronsiilate who had 
higher authority in the German-American Bimd thnn either Kulin 
or Kunze? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about a Nazi school in 
Yorkville? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In Manhattan? 

Mr. Werner. There are different schools. There is one school run 
by the German Bund and there is one school run by the German 
consulate — under the supervision of the German consulate. 

Mr. Matthews. Where is this school in Yorkville that is under 
the supervision of the German consulate? 

Mr. Werner. In the Turnverein Hall, on Eighty-fifth Street and 
Lexington Avenue. 

Mr. Matthews. Lexington Avenue and Eighty-fifth Street? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In New York? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it behind Jaeger's Restaurant? 

Mr. Werner. In the same building, 

Mr. Matthews. In the rear of the building? 

Mr. W^erner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Is this school run by the National Socialist Party? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the National Socialist Party in the 
Ignited States? 

Mr. Werner. In the United States. 

Mr. Matthews. By whom is it financed? 

Mr. Werner. The German consulate. 

Mr. Matthews. It is financed by the German consulate? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. W^ith funds that come from Germany, as far as 
you know? 

Mr. Werner. I don't know where the funds are coming from. 
I guess they would have no other means of making any money. 

Air. Matthews. Now, how many pupils attend this school? 

Mr. Werner. Between two and three hundred. 

Mr. Matthews. What are the approximate ages of the pupils in 
attendance at the school? 

Mr. Werner. Between 8 and 16. 

\It. Matthews. Do you know any of the pupils or have you known 
any of the pupils who attended the school, yourself? 

Nir. Werner. Yes; I know two children. 

Mr. Matthews. How old were the children that you personally 
knew? 

Mr. Werner. Eleven and twelve. 

Mr. Matthews. Boys or girls? 

Mr. Werner. One boy and one girl. 

Mr. Matthews. How did you happen to know these two children 
who attended this Nazi school? 

Mr. Werner. The mother of the two children was my laundress- 
took care of my laundry. 

Mr. Matthews. She washed vour clothing? 



3372 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Air. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever help these two children with their 
home worlv which they brought home from the Nazi school? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; many times. 

Mr. Matthews. Was instruction in that school in the German 
language? 

Mr. Werner. Only in German. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see the books which they were studying^ 
from? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they books published in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. In the German language? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. They were printed in Erfurt and 
Leipzig. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, these two children who were the children of 
your laundress, where were they born? 

Mr. Werner. They were born over here in this country. 

Mr. Matthews. They were American citizens? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not their father was 
living? 

Mr. Werner. The father is dead. 

Mr. Matthews. Were the children on relief? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; they were getting money from the city of 
New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the mother tell you that. 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the attitude of these cliildren, let us 
say the boy in particular, toward the United States and his attitude 
toward Hitler's Third Reich? 

Mr. Werner. All his talk and all his thoughts were pro-German. 

Mr. Matthews. Were they pro-Nazi? 

Mr. Werner. Pro-Nazi; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat was his attitude toward the United States? 
Did he express himself? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he did. He did not like it over here. He 
wanted to live in Germany. That was his sole ambition. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know him last year? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He was 11 years old then, was he? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And he thought it would be much nicer to live 
in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Than in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he ever plan to go to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; the plans were made in the German consulate. 
He was waiting for his ticket and his passport from Germany so he 
could go to Germany, through the German consulate. 

Mr. Matthews. Plans were made at the German consulate to 
send him to Germany? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 



IN-AMERICAN I'liorAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8373 

Mr. Matthews. And to pay his expenses? 

]\Ir. Wekner. Yes; to pay the ship's ticket and his upkeep over 
in Germany for or 7 years. 

Mr. Matthews. And when was he planning to make that trip? 

Mr. Werner. Just before the war started and his 

Mr. Matthews. Did you talk to him after he discovered that it 
would be impossible for him to go to Germany because the war had 
broken out? 

Mr. Werner Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhat was his attitude toward that? 

Mr. Werner. He was heartbroken that he could not go, 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, do you mean to say that here was 
a boy born in the United States, an American citizen, who was being 
taught in this Nazi school, supported by the German Government 
through the German consulate 

Mr. Werner. Right. 

Mr. Matthews. Promised a trip to Germany with his expenses 
paid by the German Government? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio thought that Germany was a much better 
country than the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. "\Mien the plans fell through and he was unable to 
go to Germany he expressed himself in the manner which your de- 
scribe as "heartbroken"? 

Mr. Werner. Heartbroken; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, the witness is able to give the 
name of the woman and the children if you desire it. 

]Mr. Starnes. I suggest that be done in executive session. I prefer 
it be given to the committee in executive session, but be certain the 
committee is provided with that information. 

Mr. Matthews. You said that this Nazi school where two to three 
hundred chikh-en are enrolled is under the direction of the National 
Socialist Party? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, is the National Socialist Party an organiza- 
tion in this country different from the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; it is. 

Mr. Matthews. There is in the United States a National Socialist 
Party, is that correct? 

Mr. W^erner. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who any of the leaders of the Na- 
tional Socialist Party of the United States are? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I know two of them. 

Mr. Matthews. Who are the ones that you know? 

Mr. Werner. One man by the name of Otto Johannsen. 

Mr. Matthews. Anfl who is the other? 

Mr. Werner. Gerhard Haack. 

Mr. Matthews. And you know that these two are among the 
leaders of the National Socialist Party in the Ignited States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not any bund members 
have dropped out of the German-American Bund and entered the 
National Socialist Party? 



8374 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. Yes; quite a few. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlien you say "quite a few," what do you mean — 
a score, or do you mean more than that? 

Mr. Werner. No; I will say about 40 or 50 bund members are 
now members in this party. 

Mr. Matthews. That you Imow of? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; that I know of. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Kunze testified before this committee 
a few days ago that the membership of the bund had dropped from 
somewhere around 20,000 to somewhere around 10,000. 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you hear anything about an attempt to 
create the impression that the German-American Bund was in a state 
of decline, for propaganda purposes? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it was a couple of times said we should join 
some other organization — try to go inside and try to wdn the upper 
hand and bring them to our side. 

Mr. Matthews. The Communists call that "boring from within." 
Did you understand the same thing to be true in this connection? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, bund members were told that 
they should go into other organizations and bore from within? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. But in addition to that, they also left the bund and 
joined the National Socialist Party, is that correct? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. So that when Mr. Kunze says that 10,000 mem- 
bers of the bund have dropped away from membership it would be 
your understanding that at least some of those have gone into the 
National Socialist Party? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; and to some other organizations. 

Mr. Matthews. And also into other organizations? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Into what particular type of organizations 
would these ex-bund members go for the purpose of "boring from 
within"? 

Mr. Werner. Well, all pro-Nazi organizations. Now, some of 
these former bund members made them pro-Nazi. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean there were organizations already set 
up that were not pro-Nazi but bund members went into them? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Under instructions from the bund, and made 
them pro-Nazi by these boring-from-within tactics? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you name some of these organizations into 
which the bimd members have gone for the purpose of influencing 
their policies? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please do so? 

Mr. Werner. The Steuben Bund in New York. 

Mr. Matthews. And that is spelled S-t-e-u-b-e-n? 

Mr. Werner. That is right; and the Kyffhauserbund — the sport 
club, soccer ball club, rather — Eintragt. 

Mr. Matthews. Soccer football club? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8375 

Mr. Wekner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. By tlie way, where is that located? 

Mr. Werner. The sport club? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Werner. In Astoria. 

Mr. Starnes. Do they never play any games of soccer football at 
a place called Federal Hill? Do you know where Federal Hill is in 
New Jersey? 

Mr. Werner. In New Jersey? I don't know that. 

Mr. jSIatthews. Do you think now of any other organizations into 
which the members of the bund have gone to bore from within? 

Mr. Werner, The Kyffhauscrbund. 

Mr. Matthews. You mentioned that one and the sporting organiza- 
tion, the Steuben Bund. 

Mr. Werner. Yes. And there are quite a few small clubs, like 
somebody come from one city like Hanover or Bremen — they have 
their own clubs. A couple of members join that club and other 
members join the other club. 

Mr. VooRHis. ISIay I ask a question in connection with this Steuben 
Society 

Air. Werner. Not the Steuben Society; this is different. 

Mr. VooRHis. It is a different organization from the Steuben 
Society? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; altogether. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is what I wanted to know. The Steuben 
Society is very old and of long standing. 

Mr. Werner. No; this is different. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Gerhard Haack, whom you mentioned as one of 
the leaders of the National Socialist Party, the manager of Kreutzer 
HaU? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And Kreutzer Hall is where in New York? 

Mr. Werner. 228 East Eighty-sLxth Street. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that where the O. D. sometimes had its drills? 

Mr. Werner. We always had drills for the last year — for the last 
year we had our drills over there. 

Mr. Matthews. You always had your drills in Kreutzer Hall? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; and our meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever have any personal contact with 
Gerhard Haack? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; every day I was working in that place and talked 
to him every day. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go to any camps with him? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Where? 

Mr. Werner. Near Nyack. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean he personally escorted you to a camp 
near Nyack, N. Y. 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. \Miat did you do there? 

Mr. Werner. Went shortly before Christmas and chopped down 
some Christmas trees and some green for the Christmas trees. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that a German-American Bund camp? 

Mr. Werner. No; it was not. 



8376 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. What kind of a camp was that at Nyack? 

Mr. Werner. This was a camp of the National Sociahst Party. 

Mr. Matthews. A camp of the National Socialist Party? 

Mr, Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did the German-American Bund have a unit up 
near Nyack? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliat kind of a unit was that? 

Mr. Werner. Rockland. 

Mr. Matthews. Rockland County, N. Y.? 

Mr. Werner. That is right, Rockland County. 

Mr. Matthews. Nyack is in Rockland County? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. ^Matthews. Do you Icnow anything about the composition of 
that unit — what type of persons belonged to it? 

Mr. Werner. Mostly lawyers, doctors, and merchants. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words so far as you know they were 
professional people? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; professional people. 

Mr. Matthews. And that seemed to be a special unit for profes- 
sional people that was organized in Rocldand County? 

Mr. Wekner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In Nyack? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, this morning you named quite a number of 
your former associates in the O. D. and you offered photographs of 
b. D. members. Are you in general familiar with the occupations 
which these O. D. men held? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I am. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you give a general characterization that 
would applv to these men so far as their occupations go? Were they 
professional people? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. How would you describe them? 

Mr. Werner. They were mechanics, bakers, restaurant people; 
a couple worked in a hospital as porters, and carpenters and painters. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, would you say in other words that the rank 
and file of the membership of the O, D. was made up of hard working 
people? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And not people of means? 

Mr. Werner. No, no. 

Mr. Matthews. Not professional people? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. Generally speaking? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. But hard working people? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio draw wages in the lower brackets 

Mr. Werner. That is right 

Mr. Matthews. Of income? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, was there any hardship imposed upon such 
people in the amount demanded of them in order to belong to the 
bund? 



rX-AMKRICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8377 

Mr. Werner. Yes; to belong; to the bund and to belong to the 
O. D. it cost (luite a little bit of money every week. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear any expressions or feel any 
pinch yourself? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did. There were quite a few fellow^s only 
made $18 and $20 a week, who were married and some with a child 
or two and it was pretty hard for them to meet their membership 
dues and other things. They had to pay carfare and the papers w^e 
had to buy. It Avas very hard for them to meet that. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever know whether Otto Williimeit from 
Chicago came to address bund meetings in New York? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you see him personally? 

jMr. Werner. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Colin Ross ever addressed 
an}^ meetings of the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he did. 

Mr. AIatthews. TMio is Colin Ross? 

Mr. Werner. I only know him as a speaker — a speaker who goes 
around. He addressed a meeting here in New York. He was ad- 
dressing meetings of the German-American Bund — German-American 
Bimd meetings in Chicago and California. 

Mr. Matthews. You mentioned this morning an occasion when a 
member of the O. D. had failed to attend two or three meetings and 
vras called on the carpet by the O. D. leader for having failed to attend. 
I don't think you told what happened to him? 

Mr. Werner. Some of them out of the ranks shouted that he was 
a traitor and a spy and two O. D. men jumped up to him and hit him. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you say they hit him? 

Mr. Werner. They threw him out of the meeting hall. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he severely beaten, woidd you say? 

Mr. Werner. His nose was bleeding and he had a puffed-up eye. 

Mr. Matthews. Who was the man in charge of that occasion? 

Mr. Werner. The O. D. leader, Ernst Sotzek. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you know^ a Martin Heinrich who was an 
O. D. member? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Martin Heinrich have any part in the beating 
of this storm trooper? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; he is one of the fellows who beat him. 

Mr. Mattheavs. How did that affect you? 

Mr. Werner. I was disgusted. 

Mr. Matthews. WTiy? 

Mr. Werner. (No answa^r.) 

Mr. Matthews. Did you think the man had had an opportunity 
to answer the charges or not? 

Mr. Werner. He gave the excuse — he said he was working, but he 
was not working. He was out dancing on tw^o nights and some of 
them reported that he was not working. 

Mr. Matthews. And so they set upon him without giving him a 
chance? 

Mr. Werner. Did not give him any chance. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any letters from Hans Meyer 
after he arrived in Germany? 



8378 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he express himself as enjoying it or otherwise? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; he wrote me that he was disappointed; he 
expected much more and he was disappointed. 

Mr. Matthews. He was the American citizen who went to Germany 
after he received passage and instructions from the German Consulate 
to go there? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. AIatthews. Did you have any difficulties as a residt of showing 
Hans Meyer's letter or telling its contents to other O. D. members? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I had quite a few members — rather I will say 
my closest friends in the O. D. — I showed them this letter from Hans 
Meyer and they told me I shoidd not do that and I should not talk 
about the letter, and after that they gave me the cold shoulder. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your attitude toward boycotting Ger- 
man businessmen who would not contribute to the German-American 
Bund? 

Mr. VooRHis. Would those be German businessmen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. How did that affect you? Did you have any 
special attitude toward that practice of boycotting German business- 
men who would not contribute? Did you have any attitude toward 
that practice? 

Mr. Werner. No; I did not like that and on a couple of occasions 
I did it myself. I told them if they didn't give me any money for this 
I would not come back and buy and would tell mv friends not to come 
there in their store. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, did you have any suspicions of an idea that 
this might be a sort of improper way of getting funds, to threaten 
Germans with boycott? 

Mr. Werner. No; in those days I did not but later on I did. 

Mr. VooRHis. When were "those days"? Do you mean in 1938? 

Mr. Werner. Later on in 1940 after I got out. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever make any protest at any bund 
meetings about any of the practices that had to do with raising money 
or spending money? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; 1 did. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state what that protest was? 

Mr. Werner. I made a couple of statements m O. D. meetings 
between O. D. members that the bund keeps such a big office and such 
a big force and we are suckers enough to pay for them ; if the office gets 
closed and them fellows have to go out and work like we have they 
would feel a little different. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words did you think that out of your very 
meager income you were supporting a top-heavy bureaucracy in the 
German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And you publicly protested against that? 

Mr. Werner. I did; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. At a bund meeting, and how was 3^our protest 
received? 

Mr. Werner. Oh, verj^ cold. They did not like the idea and I 
guess that it was the finish for me in the bund. 



UN-AMERICAN rilOPAGANDA ACTIVITlEvS 8379 

Mr. Matthews. After that did you feel that you were distinctly 
set apart? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. As some one to avoid? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; hardly any one talked to me anymore and 
would not hardly say ''hello" on the streets anymore. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, when did that happen? 

Mr. Werner. In February of this year. 

Mr. Matthews. That was in February of this year? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And what did you decide to do then about the 
whole bund after you found that you had been isolated from the 
membership of the bund as a result of your protest? 

Mr. Werner. At first I didn't want to do nothing the first week or 
two because there was quite a number of real nice, good fellows inside 
in the O. D. and in the bund. Then I had ample time to think things 
over and I missed some of these fellows and I thought it over, what 
we were doing over there, them fellows and me. Most of us, we had 
a pretty good job and made a pretty nice living; we could afford many 
things and then it came to me we are only suckers. 

Mr. Matthew's. You mean after you had stopped going to the 
bund meetings in February and after some weeks of thinking this 
thing over 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And looking back on it you decided that you just 
had been made a sucker of? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. What did you do eventually about the matter of 
your German citizenship? 

Mr. Werner. In July I applied for my first papers. 

Mr. Matthews. To take out citizenship papers? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. In the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Matthews. By the way, do you have a German passport? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. [Handing booklet to Mr, Matthews.] 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I presume the witness will have 
to keep possession of this passport for the time being, but here is his 
current passport which is good until 1944. 

Is that correct? 

Mr, Werner, That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. The other members may look at the passport and of 
course it should be returned to the witness. 

Mr. Matthews. But in July of this year you made an appUcation 
for your first papers to become an American citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews, Did your decision, after having been in the United 
States 13 years 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews (continuing). To take out citizenship papers have 
anything to do \\dth the fact that you had become disillusioned with 
the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Would you say that again, please? 



g3§0 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. You have given some concrete things that led to 
your questioning the practices of the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And you decided you had been made a sucker of 
in the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And some of your friends had been made suck- 
ers of? 

Mr. Werner. All of them. 

Mr. Matthews. All of them? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. All of them had been made suckers of in this 
bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. AIatthews. And that you had come to America, you had had 
opportunities with fairly good income and you had been able to buy 
your home? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. And those wore things that you think ma}'- not 
have happened to you if you had stayed in Germany? 

Mr. Werner. No ; we never could have had that in Germany. 

Mr. AIatthews. Now, I want to know if this all led up to your 
decision to become an American citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Or to try and become an American citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; that is the reason. 

Mr. Matthews. This disillusionment with the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; that is right, with the bund. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you ever persecuted? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. In the United States? 

Mr. Werner. No, never. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the Deutscher Weckruf 
und Beobachter. You have seen that paper frequently, have you not? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify that as an issue of the Deutscher 
Weckruf und Beobachter? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Matthews. This is the Deutscher Weckruf und Beobachter 
for October 3d, 1940. That is yesterday's paper. G. Wilhelm Kunze 
is the editor of this publication? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He is so listed on the masthead: "G. Wilhelm 
Kunze, president, G. Wilhelm Kunze, editor, G. Wilhelm Kunze, 
managing editor." He holds three positions? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In a sworn statement of this particular issue of the 
publication. 

Now, when Mr. Kunze was on the stand a few days ago he was 
asked if the Weckruf had taken any position on the Tripartite Pact — 
the Rome, Berlin, Tokyo Pact, which has just been concluded. I 
think he answered that there had not been time for the Weckruf to 
discuss it and he further stated that he would not have any position 
on it because the bund did not mix in foreign politics. 



rX-AIMEKK'A.N PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §3§1 

Mr. Starnes. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. There is quite a lengthy editorial oii the pact, 
approving it quite highly and sayhig the United States should fall in 
line with the pact and keep its hands off of the affairs of foreign 
countries. 

That editorial appears on page 2, but I was gomg to ask the witness 
about a statement in an editorial, presumably from Mr. Kiuizc, to the 
effect that 30,000,000 people living in the United States, whom he 
identifies as the German-American population, are about to have 
their- rights and lives exterminated by violence, conducted with 
Government sanction. 

I want to have the witness testify whether or not he ever had any 
experience in this country which by any stretch of the imagination 
would justify that kind of an assertion? 

Mr. Werner. No; I never have. 

Air. Starnes. To what does that article have reference? Is it the 
Selective Service Act or ordering the National Guard into service or 
what? 

Mr. Matthews. It appears to be a general article, Mr. Chairman. 
It reads: 

There are about 30,000,000 people living in the United States who know that 
they live under a political condition which is only prolonging their civil and 
political death. 

and it doesn't get any more specific than that. 

There are also articles against conscription. 

Mr. Starnes. I believe the leaders of the bund in their testimony 
said as an organization they did oppose the selective service bill, the 
passage of it, and also the National Guard training bill. 

Mr. Mason. Would you say, Dr. Matthews, that the editorial was 
nothing but glittering generalities, vague and so forth? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. It is a very long editorial and that is 
the trend of the article. It covers a great deal of territory. It goes 
back to King George the III, and brings it right down to elate. 

Now, Mr. Werner, after you took out your first citizenship papers 
you had not yet discussed with any outside persons the fact of your 
break with the German-American Bund, had you? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You had not discussed it with anyone? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. You had kept the matter entirely to yourself but 
when you came to register as an alien in the middle of September, you 
did make a notation that you had formerly been a member of the 
German- American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; I did, 

Mr. IMatthews. Now, after you applied for your first papers to 
become an American citizen, did you associate this step which you 
had taken with the importance of trying to bring out the facts about 
the German- American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. I did not get that. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you decided to become an American citizen 
if you could be admitted? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you had not talked about the bund yet? 



8382 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. I wondered if there was any connection between 
the fact that you decided to become an American citizen and your 
wiUingness to appear before this committee? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Or to go to any other person and tell what you 
knew about the real facts pertaining to the German-American Bund? 

Mr. Werner. My sole reason and my sole ambition is that all my 
former friends get wise to the German-American Bund and think it 
over. They know they are making a living over here and making a 
better living than they would in Germany; and to forget about the 
bund and the things the bund is standing for and just be real Amer- 
icans. 

Mr. Matthews. Does the bund stand, among other things, for 
the dissemination of hatred? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; the bund stands for that. 

Mr. Matthews. Stands for racial hatreds? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Ajid also stands for class hatreds. If you are 
going to hang the bankers that is class hatred, isn't it? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. As one who aspires to becoming an American 
citizen do you think that hatred has any place in the American way 
of life? 

Mr. Werner. No, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And you would like for your former comrades in 
the German-American Bund to get wise to themselves, as you put it? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; that is right. That is my sole ambition. 
I don't have any hatred or hard feelings against anybody because 
most of them — they are a nice bunch of fellows. They are working 
hard and most, almost all of them own a nice home, are married, 
have children and they are over here in this country and they have 
all the opportunity in the world, and let them be real Americans. 

Mr. Matthews. Not long ago — in fact, I think it may have been 
the last job you had, weren't you working in a diner where a number 
of nationalities were working all together in the same place? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the last job you had where this took 
place? 

Mr. Werner. The last steady job, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. The last steady job you had? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You were there as a German; was there another 
German working there? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; a German fellow, a Russian, an English fellow, 
a Frenchman, a Canadian and a Polish fellow — two Polish fellows 
and a Russian. 

Mr. Matthews. And you all worked in one diner? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did that impress you as constituting a Uttle 
league of nations? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you get along together? 

Mr. Werner. Wonderful. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8383 

Mr. Matthews. And did that come to impress itself upon your 
mind as being sometliing of a picture of America in miniature? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; if we work in a small place like that so nice 
together we ought to be able to work in a large place togethei-. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Werner, you spoke a moment ago of the fact 
that the bund had ordered its members to join other organizations? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And to work within the framework of those organi- 
zations to create sympathy for the National Socialist Party or the 
Nazi government? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. You gave us a number of names of some groups. 
Were you given any instructions other than to go into the Christian 
Mobilizers? 

Mr. AVerner. A few former members of the bund joined the Chris- 
tian Mobilizers. 

Mr. Starnes. But j^ou don't know whether it was under instruc- 
tions or not? 

Mr. Werner. No; we didn't have any instructions for that. We 
attended some meetings and so forth or rallies. 

Mr. J>tlATTHEWs. In a sense there was open collaboration, was there 
not, between the Chi'istian Mobilizers and the bund? 

Mr. Werner. The aim of Fritz Kulm was to be the head man of all 
these organizations. He tried to unite them and he wanted the 
German-American Bund to be the head of all these organizations. 

Air. Starnes. Do you know whether or not any of the former bund 
members joined the Knights of the White Camellia? 

Mr. Werner. No, not what I know. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether an}^ of them joined Pelley's 
Silver Shirt Legion? 

Mr. Werner. Not that I laiow of. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you Icnow whether or not they have worked 
closely with the Black Shirt Legion or the Fascist groups in New 
York? 

Mr. Werner. The Italian Black Shirts? 

Mr. Starnes. Are they tied hi with that group? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, they are tied in with that group. 

Air. Starnes. Have they held joint meetings to your knowledge, 
the members of the bund and the Black Shirt group, have they held 
joint meetings in New York City? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Were they working along the same line and follow- 
ing the same program in this country? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Air. Starnes. Since the Hitler-Stalin pact of the past year, August 
of 1939, has there been a change in the attitude of the bund men 
and of the Storm Troopers toward the Communists in this country? 

Air. Werner. Yes. 

Air. Starnes. \Miat was the attituae originally? Was it rather 
hostile? Didn't they attack the Communists? 

Air. Werner. Yes. 

Air. Starnes. Rather severely? 

Air. Werner. "\Mierever we met a Communist or some Communists 
we would pick a fight and they picked a fight with us and there was 
a good free-for-all with pleasure. 

62626 — 41 — vol. 14 15 



8384 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. That happened quite often, didn't it? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; it did. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, since the pact have there been any further 
fights between the Communist groups and the bund groups in the 
New York City area? 

Mr. Werner. Never since the pact was signed. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, prior to the time of the pact the Germans 
were constantly attacking the Communist Party through the cohimns 
and editorial pages of their papers? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. Have those attacks ceased since that time? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; stopped almost altogether. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you ever read the Daily Worker either through 
curiosity or otherwise? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I guess I had it twice or three times. 

Mr. Starnes. Prior to that the Daily Worker was very severe in 
its attacks on nazi-ism in this country? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. But since signing the pact have those attacks in the 
Daily Worker against the Nazi and Fascist movements ceased? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words there has been an accord in this 
country, to your personal Iviiowledge, between the Communists, 
Fascists, and Nazi groups since the signing of the Stalin-Hitler pact 
of the past year? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, here are two issues of the Weclcruf 
which establishes the fact that at least in these issues there are no 
anticommunist articles. 

Mr. Starnes. They will be received as exhibits. 

(The Deutscher Weckruf und Beobachter referred to were marked 
"Exhibit No. 7.") 

Mr. VooRHis. And prior to the signing of the pact I doubt if theie 
was a single issue of the Weckruf that did not feature an attack upon 
the Communists, is that right? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. At the time you joined the Friends of New Germany 
and the German-American Bund, you were still a German citizen? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Your sympathies naturally were toward things 
German, German culture, German heritage, and German traditions 
and so forth? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. But now you have, as a result of your experiences in 
the Friends of New Germany and in the German- American Bund, plus 
the experiences that you have obtained or lived through in this coun- 
try, have convinced you that the way you trod and the way the mem- 
bers of the Friends of New Germany and the members of the German- 
American Bund have trod, was the wrong wav? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And you are now applying for citizenship papers in 
this country? 

Mr. Werner. That i.=i right. 



1'X-A:\1KK1CAN rUorAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8385 

Mr. Starnes. And you joined the German-American Bund, of 
course, as a German citizen in order to promote the Friends of New 
German}' and the German- American Bund and al that time you were 
sincere in it? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I was. 

Mr. Starnes. You were sincere at that time? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; I was. 

Mr. Starnes. And you now vow equal sincerity in renouncing that 
program and that faith in accepting a new faith and a new program 
and a new citizenship? 

Islr. Werner. I do. 

Mr. Starnes. Has the German-American Bund blackhsted you or 
attempted to bhicklist you with reference to the question of employ- 
ment since you h,ave broken with it? 

Mr. Werner. It is my impression; I can't prove it. 

Mr. Starnes. You can't prove it but that is your impression? 

Mr. Werner. That is my impression. 

Mr. Starnes. You find it difficult if not almost impossible to ob- 
tain employment since that time? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Air. Starnes. Although within 24 hours after you landed on these 
shores 13 years ago 3'ou obtained employment? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. And held it steadily and continuously through the 
years mitil after you broke with the German-American Bund? 

Mr. W^ERNER. That is right. 

Mr. VooRHis. What was the apparent reason why you could not 
get a job after you broke with the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Emplo3mient offices would send me to a restaurant 
or to a diner and the boss would tell me to start work the next morning 
at 4 o'clock. I came down with my working clothes and one of the 
night men would tell me: "I am sorry, the old chef is coming back." 
And on other occasions the boss told me to bring my tools and work- 
ing clothes the following day and I shall start to work. I came down 
with my tools and working clothes and he told me: "I have some bad 
news for you. I am going to keep the old chef." 

I was working in a place about a week and the boss came to me and 
said 'T am sorry, I have to let you go. The old chef is coming back." 

And I was working for one place for 4 years and the other place for 
5 years and I know I always did my \\-ork well — as good as I could and 
never an}^ comphiints and now all of a sudden 

Mr. Starnes. You were never discharged before from any of your 
positions? 

Mr. Werner. No. never. I always quit. 

Mr. Starnes. In the 13 years? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; never was discharged. 

Mr. Starnes. And you never left any place of employment save 
with a good record and good conduct? 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And I believe you stated this morning you were 
never out of employment during tlie 13 years for over a week at a time? 

Mr. Werner. No; tlie longest was o days. 

Mr. Starnes. That was tlie longest time? 

Mr. Werner. That was the longest time; yes. 



8386 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. I will say for you that is an unusual record. 

Mr. Voorliis, Do you liave anything further? 

Mr. VooRHis. I want to ask a further question. 

You mentioned something about the National Socialist Party of 
the United States? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Not much has been known about that organization. 
There has not been much in the press or any place else about it. 

Mr. Werner. That is right. 

Mr. Voorhis. How long has it been in existence in the United 
States, do you know? 

Mr. Werner. In the United States? I could not say. 

Mr. Voorhis. You don't know? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Voorhis. WT^ien was the first time you heard of it? 

Mr. Werner. It was in the fall of last year. 

Mr. Voorhis. The fall of 1939? 

Mr. Werner. 1939, yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And what did you hear about it at that time? 

Mr. Werner. That it is a branch from Germany of the National 
Socialist Party and it was to open up an office on Eighty-sixth Street. 
Quite a few Germans I know belong to that. When we talk about 
it we say: "The Party." 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you know whether there was ever an attempt to 
keep this organization extremely secret and at the same time to make 
the bund as a sort of front for the activities of the National Socialist 
Party so as to divert attention from it? 

Mr. Werner. No; I would not say they want to keep it a secret. 
If they w^ant to keep it a secret they would not make an office in the 
middle of Manhattan. 

Mr. Voorhis. Which do you think is the more important from the 
standpoint of the Nazi movement, the German-American Bund or 
the National Socialist Party? 

Mr. Werner. The National Socialist Party is more important 
than the bund. The bund is a hell raiser I would say; they make 
a lot of noise. The National Socialist Party, they are working 
quietly and my impression is that the quiet work does more harm 
than the hell raising. 

Mr. Voorhis. Do you know who is the head of the National 
Socialist Party in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. No; not of the United States I don't know. 

Mr. Voorhis. You don't know that? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Voorhis. You never heard that discussed? 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. Matthews. He named two men he knows who are leaders 
but not the leader. 

Mr. Starnes. Among the leaders. 

Mr. Voorhis. But there never would be any doubt about who the 
leader of the bund was, would there? 

Mr. Werner. No. They are very closely associated with the 
German consulate. Every meeting they have one of the consul staff 
at the meeting. 



UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES' 8387 

Mr. VooRHis. Did the bund support the candidacy for Joe McWil- 
liams to Congress, do you know? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did they support him vigorously? 

Mr. Werner. Yes; helped iiini to distribute some pamphlets and 
attended his street meetings in Yorkville and stood guard in the 
street meetings in case there should be some fighting. 

Mr. VcoRHis. Was Mr. Pelley's literature ever distributed by the 
bund ill bui d meetings? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir; this Schwenck sold Pelley's papers, the 
Silver Shii't, I guess the name was. At quite a few big meetings we 
had some fellows who were allowed to sell Pelley's papers. 

Mr. VooRHis. Now, along a little bit different line. Do you 
believe the German-American Bund represents the real point of view 
of the average German-American who has come here from Germany, 
or whose parents came here from German}^? 

Mr. Werner. No. The feeling of the German people over here — 
will you say the question again? 

Mr. YooRHis. That is right. I asked you whether you thought 
the bund represented the feeling of the people of German ancestry 
who are in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. No, not in general. No, not in general. 

Mr. YooRHis. I wouldn't thinlv so either. 

Mr. Werner. No. 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you feel any less affection or loyalty to your owti 
ancestry and your own people today than you did when you were an 
active member in the bund? 

Mr. Werner. Do I feel^ — - 

Mr. YooRHis. Do you feel any less loyalty to your own German 
people and your German ancestry and their traditions and so on 
today than you did when you were active in the bund? 

Mr. Werner. No. I feel more for my people in Germany than at 
that time. 

Mr. Mason. In other words your loyalty to the German ancestry 
and the German people and the German culture is one thing? 

Mr. Werner. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. And your loyalty to Hitler and his regime and the 
National Socialist Party is a different thing entirely? 

Mr. Werner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. YooRHis. That is the point I was trying to bring out. Do 
you believe that the activities of the bund are doing a good thing or 
a bad thing for the German people in the United States? 

Mr. Werner. I think they are doing a lot of harm to the German 
people over here. 

Mr. YooRHis. Putting them in a false light? 

Mr. Werner. That is riglii. 

Mr. Voorhis. I think that is all. 

Mr. Starnes. Mr. Dempsey. 

Mr. Dempsey. No questions. 

!Mr. Starnes. Mr. Mason. 

Mr. Mason. No further questions. 

Mr. Starnes. That is all and w^e thank you very much lor your 
testimony. 

We hope that you will become a good American citizen. 



3388 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Werner. I will try my best. I will try to make up for what I 
was doing that was wrong. 

Mr, VooRHis. I think the committee should, as you have already 
done, express its very great appreciation for this man coming here. 
He has done a courageous thing. 

Mr. Starnes. His testimony has slied further light on the true 
intent and purposes of the German-American Bund and the National 
Socialist Party. It has served to center the attention of all of us 
upon the necessity of being constantly on guard against any of these 
movements, like the bund, which foster class hatred and racial hatred 
and prejudices m this country. A love of our family life and our 
background, the traditions of our race, or of our mother country is 
one thing, but a loyalty, political loyalty and allegiance to our 
adopted country is another. They need not be in contradistinction 
or against each other. But with your background and with this 
new land of ouis you should become a better citizen than many of 
us who don't loiow what occurs over there. 

Mr. Werner. I shall try my best. 

Mr. Starnes. Is there anything further, Mr. Matthews? 

Mr. Matthews. Nothing further, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Starnes. Then the hearing will adjourn. 

(Whereupon, at 2:30 o'clock p. m., the hearing was concluded.) 



I 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 21, 1941 

House of Representatr-es, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

In\'estigate Un-American Acti\tties, 

Washington, D. G. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m. in the caucus room, House Office 
Building, Hon. Joe Starnes (chairman of the subcommittee) 
presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Starnes (chairman of the subcommittee), Voorhis, 
and JNIason. 

Also present: Mr. Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and Dr. 
J. B. Matthews, director of research. 

Mr. Starnes. The committee will be in order. 

Chairman Dies has appointed a subcommittee consisting of Mr. 
Voorhis of California, Mr. Mason of Illinois, and myself to investi- 
gate the American Peace Mobilization and other groups against whom 
charges have been made of seeking to disturb our national unity and 
through their affiliations to disrupt production for national security. 

I think all of us appreciate the fact that this is a ]nost critical period 
in the history of our Nation ; that the great need of the hour is national 
unity and our security can be maintained only by unprecedented pro- 
duction for defense. 

Certainly any individual or group of individuals who, by one 
method or another, would disrupt, willfully disrupt, this production 
program or willfully disturb or attempt to destroy national unity or 
the confidence of our people in their ability or their capacity to govern 
themselves, is a dangerous group. 

This subcommittee is meeting for the purpose of investigating the 
truth of assertions made by certain of these organizations and allega- 
tions made concerning the nature of the work of the organizations and 
whether or not they are really and truly subversive in their character. 

I think it only fair to state that this committee issued three sub- 
penas directed to the officers of the American Peace Mobilization, re- 
questing them to bring their records to the committee and to go over 
tnose records with the committee and discuss the matter. The first 
two subpenas were not even acknowledged. The only acknowledg- 
ment we have received to the third subpena, which was issued late in 
February of this year, returnable March 4, was given by Mrs. Mont- 
gomery, who appeared at the committee's office, accompanied by Mr. 
Joseph Cadden, of the American Youth Congress, and Mr. Morris AVat- 
kins. of the Newspaper Guild, and Mr. Lamb, and the only informa- 
tion they brought or gave to the committee was one small pamphlet 

which disclosed nothing. 

8389 



8390 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Before proceeding with the hearing of the witnesses whom we have 
scheduled to be heard today, I would like to ascertain whether or not 
the following parties are in the committee room with the material 
which they were requested to bring by proper subpena: Mr. Arthur 
B. Hersey, treasurer of the Washington Committee for Aid to China. 

Mr. Hersey. Here. 

Mr. fcTARNES. And Mrs. Muriel Koenigsberg, secretary of the 
Washington Committee for Aid to China. 

Mr. Kersey. Yes ; she is present, your honor. 

]\Ir. Starnes. Mr. Hersey, you were requested by the subpena to 
bring with you all of the financial records of the Washington Commit- 
tee for Aid to China, including all receipts, disbursements, and contri- 
butions in connection with the Chinese Christmas Bazaar, sponsored 
by the Washington Committee for Aid to China, also all receipts, 
disbursements, contributions in connection with the Paul Robeson 
concert sponsored by the Washington Committee for Aid to China, also 
a complete financial statement of funds received, expended, and dis- 
bursed by the Washington Committee for Aid to China. Do you have 
those records with you, Mr. Hersey? 

Mr. Hersey. I have them with the exception of the financial state- 
ment of the committee which I haven't been able to complete within 
the rather short notice that was given to me. 

Mr. Starves. All right; just stand aside, then; and, Mr. Stripling, 
will you wait on Mr. Hersey about that matter? 

Mr. Taub. May I address myself to you now, please ? 

Mr. Starnes. No; you can't now. I haven't completed my state- 
ment yet. Mrs. Koenigsberg. 

]Mrs. Koenigsberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starves. You were subpenaed to bring with you the member- 
ship list of the Washington Committee for Aid to China, also copies 
of minutes of executive council meetings, also copies of a resolution 
adopted by said organization, and also all official correspondence of 
said organization. Do you have those with you, Mrs. Koenigsberg? 

Mrs. KoENmsBERG. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Thank you very much. Now, if you will just stand 
aside, later in the day, Mr. Stripling, the secretary of the committee, 
will be glad to wait on you and receive those papers and whatever 
statements you wish to make. Thank you very much for appearing. 

Mr. Taub. May I address myself now to you? I will appreciate 
an opportunity. 

]\Ir, Starnes. We are not ready to listen to any statements now. 

Mr. Taub. I am counsel here for these people. 

Mr. Starnes. May I say to you that the committee is merely ascer- 
taining whether or not these people are present with the records. 
That is all we want to know and we are now ready to proceed with 
the hearing and we are not ready to hear any statement. 

Mr. Taub. I just want to make a statement. I was called in yes- 
terday by the committee — I am the counsel — I haven't had a chance 
to consult with them. I respectfully ask you to listen for the 
record. My name is Allen Taub, 175 

Mr. Starnes. We are not ready to hear from you now. 

Who is the first witness we will have today, Mr. Stripling? 

Mr. Stripling. Miss Hazel Huffman. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8391 

I\Ir. Stahxes. ]\Iiss Huffman, will you j^lease stand and raise your 
ri<rht hand. Do you solenuily swear that the testimony you are 
about to oive will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth so help you God ^ 

TESTIMONY OF HAZEL HUFFMAN, BROOKLYN, N. Y. 

]\Iiss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You may proceed. Dr. ]Mattliews. 

Mr. Matthews. "Will you please give j'Our full name for the 
record ? 

Miss Huffman. Hazel Huffman. 

Mr. Matthews. "Where are you from, Miss Huffman? 

Miss Huffman. From New York City. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. "What is your address? 

Miss Huffman. 55 Pierpont Street. Brooklyn. 

Mr. ISIatthews. Are you an American citizen ? 

Miss Huffman. I am. 

ISIr. Matthews. "Where were you born? 

Miss Huffman. I was born in Niagara Falls, N. Y. 

]\Ir. Matthews. "Will you please state briefly what your educational 
training has been? 

Miss Huffman. I am a New York State registered nurse and 
graduate of the "University of Buffalo. 

]\Ir. Matthews. And what occupations have you followed other 
than nursing, if any? 

Miss Huffman. "\Vell, I have been a telephone operator; I have 
clerked in a store: I have been a trained nurse, ancl in my nursing 
field I have done industrial nursing, private duty nursing. I was a 
night sujjerintendent of a hospital in Brooklyn. 

i\lr. Mattheavs. That is sufficient. You are a registered nurse in 
the State of New York? 

Miss Huffman. I am. 

Mr. IMatthews. Have you engaged in research or investigations 
on the subject of un-American and subversive activities? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. For approximately how long a period? 

Miss Huffman. Just a little short of 10 years. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you appear once before this committee as 
a witness? 

Miss Huffman. Twice before. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Twice in 1938? 

Miss Huffman. Twice in 1938. I believe August and November 
or December. Anyway, it is volumes 1 and 4. 

Mr. Matthews." And the subject of your testimony at that time 
was 

Miss Huffman. Pertaining to the Federal Theater Project. 

Mr. Matthews. Your testimony was in connection with the Fed- 
eral Theater ]:)roject ? 

]\Iiss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. ^Matthews. "Were you engaged by this committee to make an 
investigation of the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 



8392 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Have you made such an investigation ? 

Miss Huffman. I have. 

Mr. Matthews. During the past year ? 

Miss Huffman. I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Did your investigations cover the entire history 
of the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews, What did you find with respect to the origin of 
the American Peace Mobilization and its relationship to the Ameri- 
can League for Peace and Democracy? 

Miss Huffman. The American League for Peace and Democracy 
had become rather dormant. The organization was not operating 
actively except for a few groups that were struggling to still main- 
tain a peace, so-called peace program. Then around the first week 
in June 1940 Israel Amter and Charles 

Mr. Matthews. Just a minute. The American League for Peace 
and Democracy was formally disbanded in February of 1940, was 
it not? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; it was formally disbanded but some of 
the smaller groups, possibly because of their social aspects, still were 
holding on. They had some rather unimportant meetings during that 
period of time. They hadn't completely disbanded. For instance, 
the Niagara Peace Council was still having meetings under the name 
of the Niagara Peace Council. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you were about to say that something hap- 
pened in June of 1940 ; what was that ? • 

IVIiss Huffman. From around January 1 up to June certain groups 
in labor had come out with a program, certain youth groups had 
come out with a peace program. I believe that was following a 
special peace program that had been issued from the Soviet Union, 
but they were not connected groups. Then in June of 1940, for New 
York State this would be, Israel Amter and Charles Krumbein — 
that is., the New York State chairman and secretary of the Com- 
munist Party of the United States 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Israel A-m-t-e-r? 

Miss Huffman. A-m-t-e-r; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. He is chairman of the New York State Committee 
of the Communist Party? 

Miss Huffman. I believe so. 

Mr. Matthews. And Charles Krumbein? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. State secretary of the Communist Partv of New 
York? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. They issued orders to all section organ- 
izers throughout New York State to organize peace groups in their 
various sections, branches, and units. It is natural to conclude that 
this same order went out from other State secretaries in the various 
States. At least our findings show that similar action was taken 
in all the States as was taken in New York State. 

Mr. Matthews. But you only know the express order as coming 
from Krumbein and x\mter? 

Miss Huffman. From Krumbein and Amter; yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8393 

Mr. IMatthews. But the same effects that followed in New York 
were also noticed throughout the ITnited States? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRiiis. Just a minute — who are Amter and Krumbein? I 
mean what oi-oanization did they issue these orders to? To what 
section organizers? 

Miss Huffman. It was the orders issued to all sections for New 
York State, all sections and branches and units. 

Mr. VooRHis. Of Avhat? 

Miss Huff^ian. Of the Communist Party. 

ISIr. VooRHis. How do you know they did that? 

Miss Huffman. This information came from a most reliable 
source — a man who was a member of one of the units. 

]\Ir. VooRHis. Did he tell you about this? 

Miss Huffman. He testified to that — he gave us that information 
under oath, ves. 

Mr. VooRHis. I mean do you have documents there with reference 
to that ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. May I, perhaps, help in clearing this up? In the 
course of your investigation you relied to some extent upon the work 
of informers inside of the Communist Party, is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews And this particular informaton about the orders 
was obtained through such informers? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And is it your finding that the order, at least, is 
in entire agreement with the developments which took place later ? 

Miss Huffman. Completely. These orders were to the effect that 
the groups were to be conducted under nonpartisan affiliations and 
they stressed the importance of keeping the Communist Party in the 
background and under no circumstances was the party to sponsor 
any of the original peace organizations or any of the demonstrations 
by these peace organizations. 

The order stressed that the original organizers of the peace groups 
should be comprised of the individuals from the following groups 
and organizations: Section and branch chairman of each assembly 
district of the Communist Party. Executives from the shop and in- 
dustrial branches of the Communist Party. Leading Connnunists 
from Conmumist-front organizations, and fellow-travelers from the 
various trade-unions, fraternal and religious groups and so forth. 
Communist executives and fronts frf)m the Workers Alliance, Na- 
tional Maritime Union, American Labor Party, left-wing, Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade, Tenants League, Jewish People's Connnittee, 
Friends of the Soviet Union, American Council on Soviet Relations, 
and various other similar groups. 

Under the orders each peace committee or organization was to 
adopt a different title, for instance, there would be the West Side 
Peace Council, the New York Peace Committee, the New York Peace 
Conference, the Coordinating Committee for Peace; the West Side 



8394 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

group, the Harlem group, all of them appearing to be spontaneous 
and individual organizations, having no link or connection with the 
others. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Huffman, did you name the New York 
Peace Association in that list? 

IMiss Huffman. I believe I named the New York Peace Committee. 

Mr. Mattheavs. You gave them as examples of the titles? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now did you find that an organization was set up 
known as the New York Peace Association? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. I was not listing all of the organizations 
that were set up. I was merely giving examples of the type of names 
that were to be used. That is the way the order was issued, you see. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photostatic copy of a throwaway; 
have you seen that ? 

(Handing document to the witness.) 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. This was obtained at one of the meet- 
ings and this confirms the list that I gave previously, of the groups 
that were to be set up — Mothers Club, United American xVrtists, 
United Action Against Fascism and Anti-Semitism, International 
Workers Order, Jewish People's Committee, American Fiiends of 
the Chinese People, and the Coordinating Connnittee Against 
Profiteering. 

Mr. Matthews. And the entire meeting was under the auspices of 
the New York Peace Association? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be incorporated in 
the record at this point, 

Mr. Starxes. It is so ordered. 

(The document was marked "Huffman Exhibit No. 1.") 

Mr. Matthews. You may proceed. 

INIiss Huffman. The orders as issued by Mr. Amter and Mr. 
Krumbein went on further to state that all sti-eet meetings were to 
be under the auspices of some union or organization and they were 
all to follow strictly the party line. The speakers were to discourse 
strictly along Communist Party lines and the speakers at street meet- 
ings, and I quote this : 

Will only be allowed to speak after they have showu credentials which will 
be furnished each contemplated speaker by the Cominmiist Party section 
chairman. 

Mv. VooRHis. You say you quote that ? What do you quote it from ? 

Miss Huffman. That was given to us by the man who was in this 
group ; it is a direct quote regarding the street meetings. 

Mr. VooRHis. But you haven't it from any official document or any- 
thing like that ? 

Miss HuFFiMAN. It came from an official source, Congressman 
Voorhis. 

Mr. VooRHis. What source was that, that is what I am trying to 
get at. 

Miss Huffman. I was asked not to divulge that source in open 
hearing. I shoidd be very glad to give the source of that information 
in executive hearing because it would interfere with the further ac- 
tivities of this particular party for this particiUar agency. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8395 

Mr. Starnes. You can <iive that information to Mr. Voorhis in an 
executive session. 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

INIr. ^Iattiieavs. ]\Iiss Huffman, do you know vluit the New York 
address of the American Peace Mobilization national headquarters is? 

Miss Huffman. The address of the national headquarters is 1133 
Broadway, New York City — that is Broadway just above Twenty- 
sixth Street. I believe it is on the fourth floor. I would not be too 
sure of the lloor. 

Mr. Matthews. Now I show you a copy of a publication called The 
Peace Reporter, issued by the New York Peace Association, the organ- 
ization which you have identified as being one of the local groups 
set up. 

Mii^s Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In compliance with this alleged order of Krum- 
bein and Amter. The address of the New York Peace Association was 
1133 Broadway, which is now the address of the national headquarters 
of the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; that is the national headquarters. The 
New York office is at 381 Fourth Avenue. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you spoke of the line which was to be accept- 
able in these programs as being the line of the Communist Party, did 
you not ? 

Miss Huffman. I mentioned the fact that the speakers were to 
follow strictly the so-called party line. 

Mr. Matthews. The Conmiunist Party line? 

Miss Huffman. The Connnunist Party line; yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. jVIr. Chairman, at this point I ask to have introduced 
into the record tlie editorial from the June 1940 issue of the Peace 
Reporter, published by the New York Peace Association, which sets 
forth the line of the New York Peace Association. 

Mr. Starnes. That is in corroboration of ]Miss Huffman's testimony ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; it is in corroboration of the facts that Miss 
Huffman gave with reference to the New York Peace Association line 
being the line of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The document referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit 
No. 2.") 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Huffman, will you j^roceed? 

Miss Huffman. The State committee especially urged, that is, 
the New York State committee of the Connnunist Party, especially 
urged that attention be given to the Italian sections, and this was 
given to me as before. Congressman Voorhis, as a direct quote of 
the order given out by Mr. Amter and Mr. Krumbein : 

Since Italy entered the war, a wonderful field is open for uniting the 
Italian people to support the Communist Party peace program because the 
Italian i>ei)ple will be the center of attack by the warmongers and advocates 
of the war hysteria which will brand them as fifth columnists. 

^Ir. ]MATTnEws. Do you kn(jw whether or not the Communist 
Party lias carried out that instruction and engaged in special activi- 
ties among Italians in New York? 

Miss Hutfman. Yes, sir; Dr. Matthews, because I am going into 
the organization of the lower East Side of New York, which was 



8396 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

carried on by the Communist Party members of the Italian division 
of the Communist Party — the Italian bureau of the Communist 
Party, to be exact. 

Mr. Matthews. All right. 

Miss HuFFMAx. This list were the leaders for the Communist 
Party of the lower East Side and they were delegated to organize 
the lower East Side. They included Louis Hanover. 

]SIr, Matthews. Will you please spell these names for the reporter, 
Miss Huffman? 

Miss Huffman. L-o-u-i-s H-a-n-o-v-e-r. His real name is Louis 
Yanover — Y-a-n-o-v-e-r. He is section chairman of the Tom Paine 
branch of the Communist Party, located at 289 Bleeker Street. 
Tony Morano. He was chairman of the Gaiibaldi branch of the 
Communist Party, located at 107 MacDougal Street. That is in 
Manhattan. 

Gino Bardi, editor of L'Unita del Popolo, which is termed the 
Communist-Italian paper. That is located at 80 East Eleventh Street. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether 80 East Eleventh Street 
is headquarters for a large number of Communist Party organi- 
zations ? 

Miss Huffman. It is; and Doctor, right there I might mention 
that — and I am talking now about June 1940, but this editor, Gino 
Bardi, is one of the most active speakers at the present time. Within 
the past 2 weeks he has made speeches at three and four meetings 
a day. 

Mr. Matthews. Meetings of what? 

Miss Huffman. Covered three or four meetings a day for the 
American Peace Mobilization, whei-e he has been the speaker and 
the organizer, always stressing the Italian aspect. 

Mr. Matthews. Is 80 East Eleventh Street the same address as 
799 Broadway ? Do you happen to know what ? 

Miss Huffman. I would have to figure that out. I prefer not to 
answer that now. Then for the same ])aper we have the associate 
editor, Mary Ratti. Her party name, Maria Testa, is given to us 
in tliis report which is also the name under which she has been 
speaking for the American Peace Mobilization. She is the wife of 
Carl Petrino and is also a member of the Italian bureau of the 
Communist Party. 

Carl Petrino is chairman of section 31 of the Communist Party 
and was a candidate for Congress from the second assembly district 
on the Communist Party ticket. 

Mr. IMatthews. That would be the Second Congressional Dis- 
trict rather than the second assembly district if he was running for 
Congress ? 

Miss Huffman. This was given as assembly; it should be Con- 
gressional District; yes. 

Alex Schwartzman of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and Ralph 
Simola of the Italian Bureau of the Comnuniist Party; Teito Nuzio 
of the Italian Bureau of the Communist Party; Bob Lesser, chair- 
man of local No. 10 of the Workers' Alliance, located at No. 9 Jones 
Street; Robert Meiron of the National Maritime Union; Martin 
Ludwig of the ^Vbraham Lincoln Brigade and executive branch No. 
2 of the Communist Party for the East Side. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8397 

Mr. VooRHis, Who are these people? 

Mr. Matthews. These people are the people who were delegated 
to organize the lower East Side of New York for the peace move- 
ment. They were ordered by the Comnumist Parly executives at 
the time this official order was given out to the sections and units. 

Mr. VooKHis. You are going to leave the Italians for the time 
being? 

Miss HurriMAN, I just have one more name. Congressman Voorhis: 
Beatrice JMcCullem, a Comnuuiist Party member and executive of the 
Tenants' League. 

Now, that is just a group that was ordered to organize the East 
Side. Similar groups were ordered to organize the West Side, the 
Harlem area, and the Bronx, and various other sections of the 
country. 

]Mr. Matthews. Now, the Congressman asked yon if yon were 
going to leave the Italians? 

Mr. Voorhis. I thought there was one question that might go in 
here. I wanted to ask whether you secured any substantial evidence 
that any work had been done with the Italian groups that were not 
Connnunists? 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, did you secure any evidence about 
Fascist groups being used in these peace drives? 

]Mr. Voorhis. What I want to know is, you said that there was 
great emphasis to be placed on the Italians. Of course, everybody 
knows there has been a very bitter and sharp division between the 
Italian people for a long time; and the Italians that were Com- 
munists themselves, there wouldn't be any difficulty about working 
with them. I want to know whether the significance of that state- 
ment had to do with an attempt to bring in other Italian people 
into this supposed peace mobilization and whether there had been 
any success in attempting to do that? 

iiliss HuFFMAx. I don't believe I understand your question. 

Mr. Mat^thews. I wonder if I can help clear that up. You have 
read the Daily Worker rather regularly during the past year? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You spoke a moment ago about this order being 
directed to work among the Italians because they would be the vic- 
tims of the warmongers; isn't that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]SrATTHEW\s. Now, have you read editorials in the Daily 
Worker which deal with that question? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. May I ask you if those editorials do not reflect 
this viewpoint, that the Comnumist Party tells the entire Italian 
po})ulation, as it were, that because the United States may become 
involved in a conflict with Italy, the entire Italian population will 
be subjected to suspicion on the i^art of their non-Italian neighbors^ 

Miss Huffman. Yes, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. And that therefore the Communist Party hopes to 
exploit that fact to win members of the Italian population generallv 
to its program? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. That is what you meant? 



8398 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; and that is a point that is stressed by 
Gino Bardi and Maria Testa in the speeches they made. They are 
constantly dwelling on that phase of it. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Huffman, you were going to take up 
some of the other groups around New York City. Did you conclude 
that part of your statement ? 

Miss Huffman. Similar groups were set up in the various areas 
and sections. Each designated area, such as the East Side, West Side, 
Harlem, the Bronx, Brooklyn, had their own particular group of dele- 
gates who did the organizing. That was specifically set up by the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. All right. WiJl you proceed? 

Miss Huffjvuan. The first large public activity was on Memorial 
Day of 1940, at which time an attempt was made by some of these 
peace groups to circulate war circulars at the ceremonies of the Rhine- 
lander Post of the American Legion. 

There had been several street fights. Several of them had been 
beaten and assaulted and as a result of that having happened, Eugene 
P. Connolly, chairman of the New York County American Labor 
Party, left wing, telegraphed protests to Mayor LaGuardia and 
Police Commissioner Valentine charging the police with failing to 
provide adequate protection. Along about that time Mr. Connolly 
issued the statement defending Representative Vito Marcantonio's 
sole vote against the President's defense program, stating that one 
vote had the full support of the rank and file of the American Labor 
Party. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now have you found that Eugene P. Connolly 
is active in the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

ISIr. Matthews. Will you give some of the facts on that point? 
In what way has he been active other than telegraphing this protest 
to Mayor LaGuardia and Police Commissioner Valentine ? 

Miss Huffman. As head of the organization of the left wing of 
the American Labor Party. They have been very active in the 
group 

Mr. Matthews. Is this so-called left wing of the American Labor 
Party officially known as the Progressive Committee to Rebuild the 
American Labor Party? 

jNIiss Huffman. I had always felt that was one of the slogans they 
used rather than it beino- the official title. It mioht be the official 
title. 

Mr. INIatthews. Well, it is the Progressive Committee to Rebuild 
the American Labor Party ? 

ISIiss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. VooRHis. I think it is rather important to distinguish that 
from the American Labor Party as such. I think it is rather im- 
portant to distinguish that from the American Labor Party. 

Mr. Mait^iiews. That is what I wanted to bring out. 

Miss Huffman. In all references I make to the American Labor 
Party, left wing, I am referring to the group that is headed by Morris 
Watson, Eugene P. Connolly, Herman 

Mr. VocRHis. I understand that perfectly well. Miss Huffman, but 
a lot of people might not understand it, and I think it is important 



UN-AMERICAN I'llUl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8399 

that it be made clear tliat is not the American Labor Partj' as such — 
it is simply a dissident gronj) within. 

Miss IIuFFMAN. Yes, sir. 

JNIr. ISIatthews. Did you have some more on Eugene P. Connolly's 
participation in the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss HuFFMAX. Well, he is a sponsor of the American Peace 
Mobilization. 

Mr. ISIatthews. You mean he is a national sponsor? 

i\liss Huffman. He is a national sponsor of the American Peace 
Mobilization. 

ISIr. Matthews. And so listed officially on their literature? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; then another one of the large groups that 
was set up at that time and was particularly active on this Memorial 
Day in 1940, was the group known as the AVest Side ^lothers' Peace 
Committee. They had presented a petition, an antiwar petition, to 
Congressman Bloom and Congressman Barton in which there were 
10,000 mothers' signatures. That group is still very active as of the 
present day. 

Under their new title, which is "The AVomen's Division of the 
American Peace Mobilization,'' and that group is headed by Dr. An- 
nette T. Rubenstein, who is princijial of the Robert Louis Stevenson 
School at 804 West Eighty-eighth Street in New York City, and Dr. 
Rubenstein headed the delegation at that time. 

Mr. ]\L^TTHEWs. Delegation to what? 

Miss HuFFiviAN. Delegation that presented that petition of the 
10,000 mothers' signatures. At that time Dr. Rubenstein denied she 
had any Communist affiliations. From that time on Dr. Rubenstein 
has been very active with the grou]:> and 

JNIr. Matthews. Do you mean the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. The American Peace jMobilization. And the Com- 
munists in the American Peace Mobilization — I hope I can make this 
clear because it is more than just a term of endearment — Dr. Ruben- 
stein is constantly being described to me by people who are Coni- 
munists and people who are members of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation as "the darling of the peace movement." At a meeting she 
spoke at 2 weeks ago, I have the exact date here, she mentioned that 
she had spoken at four meetings that day and her mother had spoken 
at three and for the past week she had been speaking at from three 
to four meetings. She is head of the women's division of the Amer- 
ican Peace ^Mobilization. 

]Mr. Matthews. Now, these various local groups were set u]> in 
New York, and also such specialized committees as the mothers' peace 
group ? 

Miss Huffman. The Mothers' West Side Peace Connnittee, which 
Dr. Rubenstein at this time admitlod was affiliated with the New York 
Peace Association. 

Mr. ]Matthews. Now, what was the next step in bringing all of 
these gi'oups together? 

Miss Huffman. On August 4, a People's Rally for Peace was held at 
Randalls Island 

Mr. Matthews. Where is Randalls Island? 

Miss Huffman. Randalls Island is in New York City, in Manhat- 
tan. At this rally the speakers were John P. Davis, of the National 

62626 — 41— vol. 14 10 



8400 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Negro Congress ; Miss Jean Horie, of the New York Youth Congress ; 
Rabbi Moses Miller, of the Jewish People's Committee; Harry Van 
Ardsdale, president of Local No. 3 of the International Brotherhood 
of Electrical Workers ; and Congressman Vito Marcantonio. 

There were about 10,000 peoople who attended this rally. I be- 
lieve the police department estimated 10,000 — it wasn't the organiza- 
tion's estimate. And prominent among them were members of the 
Workers' Alliance, the American Student Union, the National Negro 
Congress, the American Youth Congress, National Maritime Union, 
and some branches of the Communist Party. 

A telegram was read at that meeting from Joseph Curran, express- 
ing his regrets at not being able to attend. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Joseph Curran actively associated with the 
American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Is he a sponsor or official of the organization? 

Miss Huffman. He is a sponsor and also a member of the Na- 
tional Council. 

Mr. Matthews. And he is also head of the National Maritime 
Union; is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; he is president of the National Maritime 
Union and a member of the International Labor Defense. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the name of this rally held on August 4, 
1940? Did they have a special name for it? 

Miss HuTTMAN. The People's Rally for Peace of the Emergency 
Peace Conference. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you say that this rally received a very ex- 
traordinary backing and pushing by the Daily Worker? 

Miss Huffman. Oh, it was both advertised — it was distinctly a 
Daily Worker-publicized affair. 

Mr. Matthews. Could you say it was the chief feature in the Daily 
Worker for a number of days? 

Miss Huffman. Oh, yes; both before and after. The next large 
activity was the American Peace Mobilization which was held in 
Chicago stadium on August 31. 

Mr. Matthews. The Emergency Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; the Emergency Peace Mobilization on 
August 31. This call went out to all the prominent fronts of the Com- 
munist Party to come to the aid of the party in putting this gigantic 
rally across. That information came from the same man that was 
a member of these branches and these units. The order had gone out 
to all of them to give both financial and personal support to putting 
over this rally. 

Mr. Matthews. Before you go ahead with that, I show you a photo- 
static copy of a letter dated August 10, 1940. This letterhead bears 
the name of the Committee to Defend America By Keeping Out of 
War. 

Miss Hitffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. And the letter has to do witli the holding of an 
Emergency Peace Mobilization in Chicago over the Labor Day week- 
end : is that correct ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 



UN-AxMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §401 

Mr. IVIatthews. And the letterhead on front and back side has a 
list of the S])onsors of this Connnittee to Defend America By Keep- 
ing Out of War? 

]\Iiss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Have you seen this letter before? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify this as one of the pieces of litera- 
ture in the early stages of the organization of the American Peace 
]Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. The name "Committee to Defend America By 
Keeping Out of War" was dropped, was it not, in favor of the 
Emergency Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Emergency Peace Mobilization ; yes, sir. 

Mr. IMatihews. And at the Chicago conference the name then 
became the "American Peace Mobilization," is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be introduced in 
the record at this point, but I would like to ask Miss Huffman if it 
is not true that some of the persons who appeared as sponsors of 
the organization at that time have withdrawn after having learned 
that the organization was under the control of the Communist Party. 
Have you learned such? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You have made a check of this personnel against 
the subsequent personnel, have you not? 

Miss HuFFiNiAN. Yes, sir; but the point on that is not only that 
they withdrew — some of them did not withdraw because of the 
Communist domination. At least there was some newspaper pub- 
licity given to the fact that some of them claimed that their names 
had been used without their consent or their approval, I mention 
that because two of the girls working in the national office in New 
York City explained to me that the sponsors on the call and the 
sponsors on the American Peace Mobilization folder that was dis- 
tributed at tlie Mecca Temple rally — that is a blue folder that has a 
list of names — that they had in writing in their office, the acceptance 
of the sponsorship. The fact that they had written accepting the 
sponsorship of the American Peace Mobilization so that this sort of 
thing wouldn't happen again to discredit them, so the people could 
say their names were used without consent. 

Mr. Matthews. What I want to have in the record, Mr. Chairman, 
is this : That the names which appear on this list and do not appear 
on subsequent lists as sponsors of the American Peace Mobilization, 
should not be considered as now active in the organization. 

Mr. VooRHis. I think those names should be very clearly pointed 
out. 

Mr. Matthews. That will be a matter of checking, say 99 names 
against 89, or something like that, to be sure they do not appear 
subsequently. 

Mr. Starnes. They will be incorporated in tlie record and then 
T would like for you to make a statement later or insert a statement 
rather, sliowing those wlio have subsequently withdrawn and that 
will keep the record straight. 



8402 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. We don't happen to know in every instance why th& 
name does not appear in subsequent lists. 

Miss Huffman. I believe in going through the file we can make 
up such a list. 

Mr. Starnes. Of course you don't know why but you can insert it. 
Mr. Matthews. I would like to ask that tliis be made a part of 
the record. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The document referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit 
No. 3.") 

Mr. Matthews. I have one more question on this letter: In this 
conmiunication, the statement is made that the prominent speakers 
at the Chicago conference would include Senators Nye and Clark? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Senators Nye and 
Clark both refused to attend this meeting when they learned that 
it had connections or affiliations with the Communist Party? 

Miss Huffman. I believe they did. At least they were not speakers 
there. 

Mr. Matthews. They publicly withdrew? 

Miss Huffman. They publicly withdrew; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you atteaid this Randall's Island meeting 
about which you spoke a moment ago, the one held on August 4, 1940 ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir, Dr. Matthews; may I go into the meeting 
that was held at Steinway Hall where the report from the Chicago 
conference rally was given? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. I wanted to bring out if it was a fact that 
5^ou yourself were attending these meetings almost from the beginning 
of this organization or from the very beginning ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You personally attended them? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. So you know what went on at these meetings ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, after the Chicago conference, what was the 
first meeting held in New York? 

Miss Huffman. Well, divisional meetings were held around the 
various places. The meetings that I attended at that time were 
principally the midtown group. That was the Mid-Manhattan Peace 
Council that held the meeting at Steinway Hall and I also attended 
some of the meetings that were held by the upper Manhattan group. 
That was the Washington Heights group. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you say there was a meeting at Steinway 
Hall? 

Miss PIupfman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What was the date of that meeting? 

Miss Huffman. That was September 15, 1940, immediately after 
the Chicago meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you attend that meeting? 

Miss Huffman. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. And will you please state briefly what transpired 
at .that meeting? 

Miss Huffman. The open discussion before the meeting, which 
was led off by Ira Klein, discussing the transfer of the 50 destroyers 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIA^TIES 8403 

to the British and lie brou<iht out a lot of the aspects of the transfer 
and hud so worked up the audience that I wondered whether they 
•would ever come to order. This was a prenieeting discussion. 

I am only bringincj that in because it seemed to me that it was a 
piece of ajiitation work to get the ivst of the meetino- into the sj)irit of 
the meeting. It was a little unusual. Perhaps I am not making 
mj'self clear. 

Mr. Maitheavs. Who was the man ? 

Miss Huffman. Iia Klein. 

Mr. ISlAn-HFAVs. By the way, do you know who was in charge of 
the housing and arrangements for the Chicago meeting of the Emer- 
gency Peace Mobilization. 

IVIiss Huffman. Yes, sir; Abbott Simon, the committee secretary, 
•Chicago committee secretary. 

Mr. Matthews. AVill you spell that, please? 

Miss Huffman. S-i-m-o-n. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Abbott Simon was 
also in charge of housing arrangements for the gathering of the 
American Youth Congress in the city of Washington in February of 
1940? 

^Nliss Huffman. Yes, sir. Mr. Simon was in charge in Chicago, 
<and Walter Xeff took charge of all the New York arrangements. 
They were the two heads of the committee. If I may, there is one 
thing I didn't go into at the time they were setting up these various 
organizations in New York. I am going back a little now. 

Along with this West Side Mothers' Club that was set up, there is 
another women's organization that is still very powerful as of the 
present day, that is the Trade Union Women's Committee. It was 
first set u}) and is now a division of the American Peace Mobilization, 
and that group was formed by B:dla V. Dodd, of the Teachers' Union, 
and Mrs. Miriam Murphy, of the Transport Auxiliary. 

The original committee for the Trade Union Women's Committee 
Avas Miss Mary Lucille INIcGorky, president of the New York district. 
State, County, and Municipal Workers' Union; ]\Iiss Norma Aronson, 
manager of Local 16 of the United Office and Professional Workers 
of America, C. I. O. ; Miss Esther Letts, vice president of Local 65 of 
the United AVh.olesale and Warehouse Emploj-ees' Union of tlie 
C I, (). ; Mrs. Frieda Jordan, secretary of the Bakers' Union Auxil- 
iary of the American Federation of Labor; Miss Dora Jones, organ- 
izer of the Domestic Workers' Union, of the American Federation of 
Labor; Mrs. Ona Luebke, president of the Architects and Engineers 
and Technicians Union Auxiliary, C. I. O. ; Mrs. Winifred Crost, sec- 
retary of the Photo Engravers' Union Auxiliary, American Feder- 
ation of Lal)or; Mrs. Mabel Pollock, ])resident of the New Yoi'k 
Newspaper Guikl Auxiliary; Miss Ann Wliarton, oiganizer of the 
United Federal Workers, and ]\Iiss Jane Filley, educational director 
of Local 1250 of the Department Store Workers' Union of the C. I. O. 

I mention that. Dr. Matthews, because of their pronounced activi- 
ties at the present time. 

Mr. Matthews. You were reading from a page of the Daily Worker 
for June 27, 1940 ? 

Miss Huff:man. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Page 5, were you not ? 



8404 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Huffman. I was; and I also attended two of their meetings, 
and that has all been rechecked, so I am not just reading a newspaper 
clipping because all of those names and their activities were rechecked, 
and the fact that they had participated in the subsequent meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. And these women were members of the women's 
organization — the Trade Union Women's Committee for Peace? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Headed by Bella V. Dodd, of the Teachers' Union ; 
is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Huffman, we would like for you to stand 
aside, if you don't mind, for the next witness. 

Mr. Starnes. Who is your next witness? 

Mr. Matthews. Miss Mary Spargo. 

TESTIMONY OF MARY SPAEGO, INVESTIGATOR EOR THE SPECIAL 
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Miss Spargo, will you please stand and raise your 
right hand ? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that j^ou shall 
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Miss Spargo. I do. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please give your name for the record ? 

Miss Spargo. Mary Spargo Wardell. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born. Miss Spargo? 

Miss Spargo. Yonkers, N. Y. 

Mr. Matthew\s. Will you please state briefly your educational train- 
ing? 

Miss Spargo. Riverhook School for Girls, the Bennington, Vt., High 
School, and the University of Vermont. 

INIr. Matthews. What is your profession? 

Miss Spargo. A newspaper woman — I mean it was. 

Mr. Matthew^s. What newspaper experience have you had ? 

Miss Spargo. I worked on a number of papers. My last experience 
was on the Washington Daily News. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you work on the Washington Daily News ? 

Miss Spargo. Up until March 27 from last September. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you now an investigator for the committee — 
for this committee ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. What was your s]:)ecial assignment after you became 
an investigator for this committee? 

Miss Spargo. My assignment was to investigate particularly the 
Washington angle of the American Peace Mobilization and the part 
that Government workers played in it. 

Mr, Matthews. Will you please outline in chronological order, as 
far as possible, just how you went about investigating the American 
Peace Mobilization here in Washington, and subsequently elsewhere. 

Miss Spargo. I attended a meeting of the Washington Newspaper 
Guild outside — that was, I believe, on March 26. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you a member of the Newspaper Guild ? 

Miss Spargo. I am. Outside the door of the District Building was a 
man who later identified himself to me as Louis Kolb. He had a letter 



UN-AMERICAX TKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8405 

from Mrs. Moiitaoniery. Mrs. Surah V. Montixompry. idoiitifyiii<r liiiu 
as a distributor of literature for the American I'oace ^Mobilization. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you identify INIrs. Montoomery at this point, 
with respect to her connections with the American Peace Mobi- 
lizations? 

^Nliss Spargo. She is secretary-treasurer of the Washington branch. 
1 believe she is so listed, Dr. Matthews. 

Mv. Matthkws. And she had signed the credentials for Louis 
Kolb? 

iNIiss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. JNIatthews. All riaht. "WHiat did you do after vou met Louis 
Kolb? 

Miss Spargo. He had these handbills so I asked him if I might 
have one and I looked them over and told him that I was very much 
interested in the Peace Mobilization. He asked me if it would be 
possible for me to persuade the Washington Newspaper Guild to 
let him speak to them. He said: "You are interested.'' I said: "I 
am very much interested, but it would be impossible for me to per- 
suade the Washington Newspaper Guild to have a representative of 
the Peace Mobilization speak to them because the Washington News- 
paper Guild is very strongly opposed to this movement." I said : 
"However, there is no reason why I can't take a personal interest 
in it.'' 

]Mr. Matthews. Now what did you do next in the way of learn- 
ing about the American Peace Mobilization'^ 

ISIiss Spargo. I went next into the local headquarters at 1116 Ver- 
mont Avenue, at that time, and saw Mrs. Montgomery, taking with 
me the literature which INIr. Kolb had been distributing. I told Mrs. 
]Montgomery that I was very much interested in the Peace 
Mobilization. 

JNIr. Matthews. Did you join the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. In a sort of fashion. I was ver}- active in it. I 
never got a membership card. 

Mr. Matthews. AVell, what did you do in the way of joining? 

iVIiss Spargo. I went to the meetings with them and did some 
little work at their headquarters and that kind of thing. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever see anything like an application 
blank or anything tliat you fill out to become connected with the 
American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. No; Dr. Matthews, I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. You never saw any such thing? 

Miss Spargo. No: I did not. I do know that they had member- 
ship lists, but I did not see any application blanks. 

Mr. IVLvtthews. Did you offer your services in any way whatsoever 
to Mrs. Montgomery at the headquarters of the American Peace 
Mobilization ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. And did you do any work in the office? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; I did. 

]\Ir. Matihews. AVill you ])lease describe briefly what that was? 

Miss Spargo. Oh, I folded throw-outs and handbills and that kind 
of thing. 

Mr. Matthews. And how long did you do that? 

Miss Spargo. I would have to have mv notes for the exact dates. 



§406 UN-AMERICAN PliOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Never mind the exact dates. 

Miss Spargo. Approximately a month. 

Mr. Matthews. That is you were in the headquarters quite regu- 
larly for approximately a month? 

Miss Spargo. In and out. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you express any desire to attend 

Miss Spargo. Oh, I am sorry; I worked on the Graphic Arts 
Committee. That was a committee making posters and lay-outs and 
that kind of thing. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you express any desire to attend the meeting 
■of the American Peace Mobilization held in New York 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Early in April? 

Miss Spargo. Yes ; I did. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. And will you please describe how you went about 
that? 

Miss Spargo. I just went in and asked Mrs. Montgomery about it 
and said that I would like to go and learned about the arrangements 
for buying tickets. 

She said that they were not selling tickets until the next day and 
that the people who handled the tickets would be in the next day. 
I went down the next day and saw Samuel Schmerler and Helen 
Schmerler, who were in charge of tickets. Morton Friedman was 
another who was in charge of transpoi-t ation. 

Mr. Mati'hews. Where did yoa see them? 

Miss Spargo. At the headquarters on Vermont Avenue. 

Mr. Matthews. And did you obtain transportation to go to the 
New York meeting from Schmerler, or how did you get your trans- 
portation? 

jNIiss Spargo. I am not ci[uite sure from which person I obtained 
the transportation. Dr. Matthews. I believe that I bought my ticket 
from Mrs. Helen Schmerler. 

Mr. INIatthews. Did you pay for it? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it a cut rate on a special train or special car? 

Miss Spargo. It was on a special trahi to take the Washington dele- 
gation down. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, you are sure that you made arrangements to 
go to New York with this committee; is that right? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. But you don't happen to remember which one 
actually took the cash out of your hand; is that what you mean? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. AVho was in charge — any one of these individuals 
in particular? 

Miss Spargo. Morton Friedman was named as being in charge of 
transportation but Samuel Schmerler and Helen Schmerler were 
equally active. It depended — I mean it depended on which hour of 
the day you went in there. There were diiferent people in charge 
as you can imagine — they are working people and cannot spend all 
their time there. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you identify Sam Schmerler as to his occupa- 
tion? 

Miss Spargo. He works in the Federal Security Agency. 



UN-AMEKICAN PUOPAOANDA ACTIVITIES 8407 

Mr. Matthews. Federal Security Administration or Agency? 

IMiss Sparoo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he eniploj'ed there now? 

Miss Spaego. I believe so. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you made a check on whether or not he is 
employed there? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; I checked with civil service, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. And according- to that check he is employed at 
the Federal Security Administration? 

]\Iiss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is Mrs. Schmerler employed anywhere in the Gov- 
ernment ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, Dr. Matthews. I will have to have my papers. 

Mr. JSIatthews. AVhere is Mrs. Schmerler employed ? 

Miss Spargo. I don't seem to have that there. My recollection is 
that she is with the Railroad Retirement Board. 

ISIr. Matthews. Have you made a check on her employment? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, Dr. Matthews, but I am not well prepared on 
these names. 

]\Ir. ]Matthews. Is that because you happen to have several 
hundred ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. I don't know that we have several hundred 
but we have a great many and I have not had time to prepare the 
definite listing of those names. 

Mr. INIatthews. Do you know where Morton Friedman is em- 
ployed ? 

Miss Spargo. I do not, Dr. ]\Iatthews. I do not believe Morton 
Friedman is a Government employee but that also I have not yet 
checked. 

Mr. Starnes. We do not want any testimony concerning Govern- 
ment employees or any list until you have finished checking except 
those you have personal information about. 

Miss Spargo. I understand that. 

IMr. Matthew's. You said you didn't know whether there were sev- 
eral hundred or not. Don't you have lists that you have checked 
that have at least 2,000 names on them? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You have at least 1 list that has 2,000 names you 
checked ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, Dr. Matthews; but that is not the American 
Peace ^lobilization. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes ; I understand, but I am talking about Govern- 
ment employees. 

Miss Spargo. Interlocking organizations. 

Mr. Matthews. I asked you about Government employees and not 
about the American Peace 'Mobilization. What was the date of the 
meeting in New York? 

Miss Spargo. April 5 and 6. 

Mr. Matthews. When did you go up to New York? 

Miss Spargo. We went up April 4, Friday. 

Mr. Matthews. How many persons went with you on the trip, on 
the train to New York, approximately? 

Miss Spargo. I think on the train there were approximately 150 
people. 



8408 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have sj^ecial cars ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; we did, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. How many? 

Miss Spargo. Two. 

Mr. Matthews. You had two cars ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did yon meet a large number of these delegates on 
the way up to New York? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you come to know some of them personally? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. And quite well? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; I did; very well. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether other delegates went from 
Washington to the New York meeting of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation by otlier methods of transportation? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; a great many went by special bus and a great 
many went by private car. 

Mr. Matthews. Did any one of the officers in the headquarters of 
the American Peace Mobilization here in Washington tell you wdiat 
the size of the Washington delegation would be? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; Sam Schmerler told me that they would have 
about 500 delegates from Washington, 150 of whom were to be dele- 
gates from the Government — all of those that they called Government 
delegates and all those delegates whom I met were members of the 
U. F. W. A. 

Mr. VooRiiis. Just a minute You don't mean they were delegates 
from the Government? 

Miss Spargo. That is what they were called. 

Mr. Voorhis. You mean they were delegates from the United States 
Government to the meeting of the American Peace Mobilization, so 
designated ? 

Miss Spargo. I am referring to them only as they were referred to 
me, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. I think it is rather important that we get this matter 
plain. You mean that the President appointed these people to repre- 
sent the United States Government ? 

Miss Spargo. Oh, certainly not. 

Mr. Voorhis. Of course, you don't. What you mean is they were 
people who came from Washington, who belonged to a union, perhaps, 
that was composed of Government employees ; isn't that right ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. They called themselves, how^ever, 
Government delegates. 

Mr. Voorhis. What were they delegates to ? 

Miss Spargo. Delegates to the American People's Meeting. 

Mr. Voorhis. People's meeting? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct; which was a meeting of the national 
meeting of the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. These people who w^ere referred to as Government del- 
egates were purported to be Government employees ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. They were in fact Government em- 
ployees. 

Mr. Starnes. Government employees? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8409 

Mr, Starnes. And the Washinoton council or the Washington chap- 
ter for tliat reason, presumably, referred to them as Government 
delegates? 

jNIiss Spargo. That is correct. 

jMr. Starxes. In contradistinction to those who were not em- 
ployes of the Federal Government? 

Miss SpAi;(;o. Tliat is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, 

Mr. INIatthews. Do you happen to know whether or not there were 
as many as 500 delegates from Washington to the American Peoples 
Meeting ? 

jNIiss Spargo. Yes ; Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. There were approximately 500 ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes ; there were approximately 500. 

Mr. ^Matthews. From Washington ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. I believe some of the literature of the American 
Peace Mobilizati(m and the Washington Peace Mobilization said that 
there were 600 delegates from Washington. I am merely giving my 
own estimate. 

Mr, Matthews. Which would be nearer — 500 ; is that correct ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. MattheW'S. Now, you say the official title of this meeting was 
the "American People's Meeting" but it was held under the auspices of 
the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

IMr. ^Matthews. Do you happen to have a call that was issued for 
that gathering? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

IVIr. Matthews. Is that it? 

(Handing pa])er to the witness.) 

Miss Spargo. That is it; yes, sir. 

Mr. MATTHEw^s. Xow, will you please describe that briefly? 

]\Iiss Spargo. "Call. American People's Meeting." A. P. M. Those 
are the capital letters which form A, P. M, reading downward — Ameri- 
can Peace Mobilization, It calls upon all friends of peace and liberty, 

Mr. Matthews. And it is signed by a large number of names, isn't 
it? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthew^'^. Approximately how many names appear as signers 
of this call ? 

Miss Spargo. I don't know, sir — maybe 225. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this call which has been 
identified by the witness, be made a part of the record. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The document referred to is marked "Spargo Exhibit No. 1.") 

Mr. Matthews. Xow, on the back of tlie call, I direct your at- 
tention. Mr. Chairman, to the fact that the sponsoring organizations 
or participating organizations in the American Peace Mobilization, 
are also listed in part: The American Youth Congress; the Farmer- 
Labor Partv of Minnesota; the International Fur and Leather AVoi'k- 
ers' Union: the International Workers Order; the Jewish Peoples' 
Committee: the National Maritime Union; the Southein Negro Con- 
gress; the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, 



8410 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Local 1225; the Washington Commonweahh Federation and other 
organizations of that general character. 

Mr. VooKHis. Is the American Peace Mobilization on that call ? 

Mr. Matitiews. At the bottom of the page we find the following r 

Please mail immediately to the national office of the American Peace Mobiliza- 
tion, 1133 Broadway, New York City. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is all ? 

Mr. Matthews. I think that is the only place where the name 
appeal's. 

Mr. VooRHis. But it does appear on there ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. 

You attended this gathering, did you not? 

Miss Spargo. I did, Dr. JMatthews. 

Mr. Matthews. On your way up to New York on the train did you 
do any work in preparation for the gathering in New York? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. The group led by Sam Schmerler made up a 
song on the train. I liad my typewriter with me, so I made several — 
made a good many copies of that song for them for distribution. 

Mr. Matthews. You have referred a number of times to Sam 
Schmerler. Was he one of the leaders of the delegation ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes ; very decidedly. He was one of the ablest leaders. 

Mr. Matthews. Does he have any official title in the Washington 
Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. It does not appear on the letterhead, but he is chair- 
man of the Trade Union Council of the Washington Peace Mobiliza- 
tion. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give any other pertinent details 
about your trip to New York City. You helped them type some songs. 
What else transpired on the train? Were there discussions of the 
organization ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes ; and the chief business on the train was rehearsing 
songs and things of that sort, such as The Yanks Are Not Coming, No, 
Sir, and also the business of where people were to stay was straight- 
ened out, and that kind of thing. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Avhat did you do after you reached New York ? 
Will you describe what happened? 

Miss Spargo. We went to Mecca Temple to register and arrange for 
housing the Washington delegation. The Washmgton delegation was 
largely housed at the Hotel Lincoln. 

Mr. Matthews. And then will you go ahead with the story of the 
gathering itself? Describe the gathering which took place in New 
York step by step. 

Miss Spargo. Dr. Matthews, do you want to have the first meeting? 
The first meeting of the Washington delegation — would you prefer to 
have that first ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Miss Spargo. The Washington delegation met in the Crystal Room 
at the Great Northern Hotel. An executive committee was formed. 
Mrs. Montgomery, Mrs. Sarah V. Montgomery, Morris Tepping, alias 
Tepletsky. 

Mr. Matthews. Tepletsky ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. How do you happen to know that is an alias for 
Morris Tepping? 



UN-AMKUICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8411 

]\Iiss Spargo. It is so given in the records of the Metropolitan 
Police Dejiartnu'iil. 

Mr. Matthews. All right. Will you name — are you naming the 
executive connnittee that was chosen? 
Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. Was Sarah V. ^Nfontiiomery chairman of the execu- 
tive committee — is that the reason you named her first? 

Miss Spargo. Her name came first on the list. 

Mr. Matthews. Proceed with the names of the executive com- 
mittee. 

Miss Spargo. Sam Zihet, alias Samuel Goodman; Jack Z'lcker; 
Sam Schmerler; Morton Friedman; Mary Eichardson; and Henry 
Thomas. Henry Thomas is the Negro leader of the southwest Com- 
munist Party here. 

A national presiding committee Avas also formed. Jack Mink — — 

Mr. Matthews. Was that national presiding committee formed in 
the Washington delegation meeting? 

]SIiss Spargo. That is correct. That is the committee which was 
to be the contact with the national committee and sit on the plat- 
form and that kind of thing. 

Jack Mink, ISIary Richardson, and Henry Thomas, Morris Tep- 
ping. Jack Zucker, and Miss Mildred Bricker were also mentioned, 
but they withdrew\ A lobby committee was set up. This was to 
show the White House and Congress how the American Peace 
Mobilization felt about this "imperialist war." Tliis lobby com- 
mittee is the same committee which was aiding with this present 
picketing of the White House. 

Mr. Matthews. When you describe the war as an "imperialist 
Avar.-' what are you quoting? 

Miss Spargo. I am quoting what was said at the meeting, Dr. 
Matthews. 

Mr. ]Matthew^s. Is that the common parlance of the American 
Peace Mobilization, as you learned to know about it in describing 
the war? 

Miss Spargo. It is, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the word "imperialist" invariably prefixed? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you happen to know whether or not that is 
also the Communist Party line? 

Miss Spargo. It is. Dr. JNIatthews. 

Mr. Matthews. On the question of the war? 

I\Iiss Spargo. It is. 

Mr. Matthews. All right ; you were naming some committee. 

Miss Spargo. A lobby connnittee was set up. Jack Zucker and 
Sally Montgomery — "Sally Montgomery" is Mrs. Sarah V. Mont- 
gomery. She was generally called "Sally" by the people there. A 
resolutions committee Avas"^set up. Sam Schmerler; I^ee Whiting; 
Tod Ozmun, identified by the Metropolitan Police as a Communist 
Party leader and organizer here for many years. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please spell the name? 

Miss Spargo. 0-z-m-u-n. Alexander Betz. 

]Mr. Matthews. Do you know what Ted Ozmun does for a liv- 
ing — what his occupation is? 



^412 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Spargo, I do not, Dr. Matthews. He has been repeatedly- 
employed upon W. P. A. and W. P. A. projects. He has translated 
for that department and other departments, according to information 
he gave me. At the present time I don't know what he is doing. 

Mr. Matthews. Had you concluded the reading of the names of 
the committees? 

Miss Spargo. No, sir. Benjamin Kanerak. He is a bituminous-coal 
employee. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean an employee of the Bituminous Coal 
Commission ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And not a miner ? 

Miss Spargo. No, sir. Hugh B. Miller, an attorney of the Bitu- 
minous Coal Commission; Mrs. Eleanor Fowler; Mrs. Dorothy 
Strange; Reginald Audrey; Herman Dolgan. 

Mr. Matthews. D-o-l-g-a-n ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct, I believe. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Starnes. As you read those names you are identifying people 
that you know personally to be employed by the Federal Government 
in various capacities ? 

Miss Spargo. I was so informed. 

Mr, Voorhis. Well, so I may understand this, is that a list of an 
executive committee ? 

Mr. Matthews. There are committees appointed by the organization 
in New York. She said this particular person was an employee of the 
Bituminous Coal Commission. 

Mr. Starnes. And I asked if she had personal knowledge that these 
people were em]:)loyed by the Government. 

]\Ir. JMason. Of those you listed as employees? 

Miss Spargo. I know from them or from checking with Government 
departments that they are employed — by checking in the departments 
where they are employed. 

Agnes Spencei-; Ali^heus Hunt on, a professor at Howard University. 

Mr. Matthews. What committee is that you just read? 

Miss Spargo. That is the resolutions committee. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there any other committee ? 

Miss Spargo. Hudson Wells, who was president of the Washington 
Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. IMatthews. Was he on the resolutions committee? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; he was appointed to draw up a separate resolu- 
tion on housing. Then there was the march from One Hundred and 
Twenty-fifth Street 

Mr. JNIatthews. Are you through with the committees? 

Miss Spargo. No, Dr. Matthews. They scheduled a march from One 
Hundred and Twenty-fifth Street to Randall's Island and appointed a 
connnittee to handle that. Jack Zucker, Charles Adamson, Fay Gold- 
stein, Ted Ozmun, and five or six people of whom I have only the last 
names — do you wish those included ? 

Mr. Starnes. Only the last names? I don't know that that is 
material. 

Mr. Matthews. Does that conclude the list of committees? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now, this was all business which transpired at the 
meeting of the Washington delegation ? 



UN-AM KKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8413 

Miss Spargo. That is right. 

Mr. IMattuews. To the American Peoples Meeting? 

Miss Spakgo. That is correct. 

Mr. JNlATrHEWS. Did any other business transpire there that is perti- 
nent to this investigation ? Did the meeting consist entirely of naming 
these committees? 

jNliss Spakgo. No. 

]Mr. Mati'hews. "Who presided at the meeting of the AVashington 
delegation ? 

MTss Spargo. IMrs. Montgomery, 

]\rr. jMati'hews. AVas there a secretary of the delegation? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; Mary Richardson acted as secretary. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know what her employment is? 

Miss Spargo. I do not. 

Ml'. Matthews. Do you recall who made speeches, if any formal 
speeches were made, at this meeting of the Washington delegation? 

Miss Spargo. Sam Schmerler spoke and Jack Zucker spoke mostly 
upon the kind of resolutions which they wanted to have included in 
the national platform. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Sam Schmerler in his speech make any refer- 
ence to the Washington Bookshop? 

Miss Spakgo. Yes, Dr. Matthews. He said that members of the 
American Peace Mobilization would get a special discount at the 
Bookshop and that the Bookshop on Seventeenth Street carried liter- 
ature which no other bookshop would carry in Washington. 

Mv. ISIatthews. Did he state witli what authority he could offer 
special discounts from the Bookshop to the members of the American 
Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. Xo. I believe not. Dr. IVIatthews. 

Mr. Matthews. He just stated that as a fact? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. INIatthews. After the Washington delegation had its meeting, 
was there a main session of the entire American Peoples Meeting? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Wliere was that held ? 

Miss Spargo. It was held in Mecca Temple. It was originally 
scheduled to have been held at Randall's Island, but because of raiii 
it was called off. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you start to Randall's Island? 

Miss Spargo. We did. 

Mr. Matthews. And it began to rain on the way ? 

Miss Spargo. It did. 

Mr. ]\lAn^HEws. And the march turned around and came back to 
Mecca Tem])le; is that right? 

Miss Spaigo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. AYas the meeting at Mecca Temple an open or 
public meeting? 

Miss Spargo. Xo. sir ; it was for delegates only. 

Mr. Matthews. AA^as the meeting at Randall's Island to be a public 
meeting? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

IMr. ]MAiTnEWs. How far had you marched before you turned 
around and went back to Mecca Temple? 



3414 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Spargo. We marched from One Hundred and Twenty-fifth 
Street part way across the Triborough Bridge. 

Mr. Matthews. When you got back to Mecca Temple, what did 
you have to do? Show your delegate's card or badge in order to 
gain admission to the meeting? 

Miss Spargo. In every section at Mecca Temple you had to show 
your delegate's card. May I explain? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Miss Spargo. I was given a delegate's card, although I could present 
no credentials. I mean they were asking for credentials and I said 
that I had none, but I was very interested and that is how I happened 
to have a delegate's card. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Where did you get the delegate's card? Here in 
Washington ? 

Miss Spargo. No ; at Mecca Temple when I first went down there. 

Mr. Matthews. At the meeting of the Washington delegation did 
you have any particular friend with whom you were sitting and with 
whom you discussed what was going on, or did that occur on the 
march or subsequently? Did you discuss this matter with any par- 
ticular individual in the Washington delegation ? 

]Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; ])articularly with a Miss Julia Marcus. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that J-u-1-i-a? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. M-a-r-c-u-s? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean that during the gathering you got par- 
ticularly acquainted with her? 

Miss Spargo. On the way down on the train. She is a Govern- 
ment employee. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where she is employed ? 

Miss Spargo. I have it in my notes. Dr. Matthews. I don't recall 
offhand. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you get to know any other individual par- 
ticularly well from the standpoint of discussing the nature and pur- 
poses of the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; I got to know Mr. Ozmun quite well. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you sit with him in some of the sessions? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; I sat with him at the sessions of the Wash- 
ington delegation in the Crystal Room of the Great Northern Hotel 
and on subsequent occasions. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Did Mr. Ozmun take it upon himself to exj^lain 
to you carefully the nature and purposes of the American Peace 
Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. He did. He asked me to join the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Where did he ask you to join the Communist 
Party ? Going up on the train or coming back or where ? 

Miss Spargo. No; it was at a session in Mecca Temple, a branch 
meeting of Press, Office, Government and 

Mr. Matthews. Had he led up to his asking you to join the Com- 
munist Party with any discussion of the relationship of the Com- 
munist Party to the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Spargo. Oh. yes. 

Mr. Matthews. He just didn't ask you out of the blue to join the 
Communist Party, did he? 



UX-AMEUICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8415 



Miss 8pakgo. No, indeed. He had the evening that I arrived in 
New York — 1 wonder if I niioht refer to my notes ^ 

Mr. Matthews. Certainly. AVill you detail your conversations 
Avith Ozniun ^ 

Mr. Staunks. We aie going to declare a short recess for the purpose 
of letting the witness check her notes. 

(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Ml". Staknes. The connnittee will be in order. 

As I understand it you are to show by this line of questions what 
relations there were between the Communist Party and the American 
Peace Mobilization? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. I would like Miss Spargo to remember as 
exactly as po.ssible the language of her conversations with Mr. Oz- 
nuni that had to do with the relationship of the Communist Party 
to the American Peace Mobilization. Will you describe the con- 
versations? 

Miss Spakgo. Part of this conversation was at a party given April 
4, given at the home of Miss Muriel Draper, 144 Lexington Avenue, 
New York City. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that Miss Muriel Draper, the famous dancer? 

Miss Spargo. I believe so. The party was for out-of-town delegates 
to the American Peo])le"'s Meeting. 

I had to go to the party with Miss Julia Marcus and it was there 
That I met Mr. Oznum. We had a A^ery lengthy conversation. He 
l)egan to quote the things William Z. Foster had said about the rights 
of workers. He then asked me how far I had progressed. He said 
that by this time : "You have discovered that the old two-party system, 
the dear old American Avay, is just so much bunkum for the Avorkers." 

Later Mr. Ozmun said he believed that I Avas about "ripe to join 
the C. P." 

I asked him: "You mean the Connuunist Party?'* 

He said : ''Of course, don't tell me you don't like the party." 

I again saAV Mr. Ozmun and sat with him at the Washington dele- 
gation meeting the next morning. That Avas xVpril 5. Then, later 
again that same day on April 5, I saAV him at the CA^ening conference 
at Mecca Temple. ]\Ir. Oznmn wanted me to leave the conference 
early to attend a party at the Youth Workshop, at 4 West Eighteenth 
Street, Avhich was being giA-en in — I mean for delegates to the Amer- 
ican People's Meeting. I suggested that since they had given me a 
card as a delegate I should stay at the sessions and attend the ses- 
sions. He thereupon said in a meeting AAdiere there Avere people 
around. I mean a great many people, the whole audience, he said "You 
can't do any good by sitting at these sessions. All the positions are 
held by members of the C. P. Nobody Avho is not a member of the 
C. P. can get anvAvhere in the A. P. M." 

Mr. VooRHis. Did Ozmun tell you that? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct, Mr. Voorhis, he did. He said: 

AVe have a fow A. P. M. iiieinbers who arc not C. P. people but they haven't 
a tiling to do AVith running this organization. 

He said : 

When yon join the C. P. it will he worth while for you to stick around; you 
iniglit be elected to office or ])Ut in a group leadership position, but don't forget 
the ('. P. has this whole matter of the American Peace Mobilization in the bag 
and is running it just the Avay it Avants to. 
62626— 41— vol. 14 17 



8416 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Now, was that conversation to dissuade you from 

staying at the meeting on the ground that if you stayed you could not 
do anything because you were not yet a Communist Party member? 
Is that the way you understood the conversation % 

Miss SPARGO.'lt was partly for that purpose and jjartly as an or- 
ganizational effort. He is organizer and he was trying to show me 
how important it was to join the Communist Party. He had brought 
that up several times. 

Mr. Matthews. He wanted you to go to another meeting — is that 
correct — or party ? 

Miss Spargo. He wanted me to go to a party at the Youth Work 
Shop. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go to the party at the Youth Work Shop ? 

Miss Spargo. I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Go ahead with your conversations with Mr. Ozmun, 
if there was some more on that particular point. 

Miss Spargo. At the Youth Work Shop Mr. Ozmun informed me 
he had started the Workers Alliance here in Washington with 10 mem- 
bers and it had grown to 2,500. He said he had joined the Commu- 
nist Party 5 years ago. He said he had worked in various capacities 
on W. P. A. Historical Records Survey, translating for the Justice 
Department, Interior Department, and Agriculture. He said that be- 
cause the Communist Party had many members in key defense posi- 
tions in the Government, and was trying to get as many more as it 
could, that he had tried himself to get in with the Defense Commission, 
but he said that he had been turned down because he belieA^ed that the 
police knew he was a Communist. He said : 

I was one of those who picketed the German Embassy and I served 30 days 
in jail for it, all because they knew we were Communists. I was with the Sea- 
men's Union at that time. 

He also told me that Representative Cox, of Georgia, had slapped 
his face on one occasion and he said he had made the headlines with it. 

I suggested to Mr. Ozmun that if I should join the Communist 
Party I wouldn't care to have it generally known. Mr. Ozmun in- 
formed me that that was very easy, he would pro*pose me, the Com- 
munists in the Newspaper Guild will inquire into my reputation and 
only he, they, and the local party secretary would know my real name. 
He said : 

We all use different names in any Communist connection except for such people 
as Corliss Lamont. 

Mr. Matthews. Did he use the name Corliss Lamont? 

Miss Spargo. He did, sir. He also suggested that joining the Com- 
munist Party woidd be a wonderful form of insurance for the future, 
because the Comnumists were going to be able to take over this country 
in about 5 years, he thought, and he said that naturally party members 
would fare better than others when the revolution came. 

I believe, Dr. Matthews, that that is about all on that particular 
point. 

Mr. Starnes. May I ask you a little bit further about this tie-up 
of the American Peace Mobilization ? He told you the only way you 
could hope to achieve a position of responsibility or leadership in 
the movement was to become a party' member? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 3417 

Miss Spargo. What lie told me was that I couldn't hold an office or 
be on a comniilloe or have anythin<x whatever to do with runninfj it 
if I were not a Connuuuist Parly member. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, he told you definitely that the Com- 
munist Party controlled the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Sparho. He did, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. VooRHiK. Now, with that as No. 1 point, would it not be true 
that every effort would be made to try to get people who were not 
Communists to be interested in it or affiliated with it in one way or 
another, providing they didn't have any position? 

Miss Spargo. Providing they held no position of leadership, oh, ab- 
solutely. 

Mr. \\K^Rnis. And wouldn't the effort be made to get people as far 
away as possible if you coukl, to come along with the thing and attend 
meetings and be members and so on and so forth ? 

Miss Spargo. Oh, j-es; I definitely know that. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is what a front is for, isn't it ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; only this is a personal opinion, Mr. Voorhis, but 
it seemed to me this is less of a front than most of these other organ- 
izations — it is more open. 

Mr. VooRHis. You mean the control is tighter and it is more defi- 
nitely communistic? 

Miss Spargo. It is more definitely communistic; yes. In other 
words we have so much testimony 

Mr. Voorhis. The point I am trying to make is, it would not do 
the Comnninist Party any good to have an organization that was 
just limited to control by them and membership of their own people, 
so, therefore, the attempt is to utilize this cause of peace in which so 
many people are sincerely interested, and deeply concerned and from, 
to my mind, the very best of motives, to utilize that as a means of 
getting a lot of perfectly good people as tails to what is definitely a 
Communist kite, isn't that right? 

Miss Spargo. That is exactly so. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, JMr. Chairman, if Miss Spargo will stand 
aside for a few minutes. Miss Huffman has testimonj^ concerning the 
same meeting and the same point, and if you will hear that now we 
Avill have Miss Spargo come back in a moment. 

]Mr. Starnes. Very well. Miss Spargo, you may stand aside. 

TESTIMONY OF HAZEL HUFFMAN— Resumed 

Mr. ^Iatthkwr. Miss Huffman, did you attend the first large meet- 
ing of tlie American Peoples Meeting held at Mecca Temple after the 
affair was adjourned from Randall's Island to the temple? 

Miss Huffman. Both. Befoie Randall's Island meeting there was 
some activities at Mecca Temple previous to the Randall Island 
meet in"'. 

Mr. aIatthewr. You attended all the meetings, did you? 

IMiss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please give what information you 
have on what transpired at that meeting at Mecca Temple, particularly 



3418 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

as it relates to the question of the part that the Communist Party was 
playing in he American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes ; both that and a meeting that I attended later 
that evening that was not an American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Matthews. All right. 

Miss Huffman. At the American Peace INIobilization one thing I 
was particularly interested in was observing how many of the so-called 
leaders of the Communist Party were in attendance at that meeting. 

Among those in attendance at the meeting on the floor with the 
delegates were Ben Gold, Rockwell Kent, Isobel Walker Soule, Eliza- 
beth Gurley Flynn, Norman Tallentire, of the International Workers' 
Alliance; Joseph Brodsky, William F. Dunne, Robert Dunn, Mike 
Gold, Si Gerson, a former representative; Jerry O'Comiell, the 
Michigan State senator. Stanley Novak was both a speaker and for 
a period of time was on the floor with the delegates. 

Mr. VooRHis. What meeting is this? 

Miss Huffman. This is the meeting at the Mecca Temple. 

Mr. Starnes. Of the Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. The American Peace Mobilization convention. It 
was called the American People's Meeting. 

Mr. Starnes. I understand, and that is this meeting? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; and they were on the main floor with 
the delegates. There was the main auditorium and two balconies 
and these people were all seen on the main floor with the delegates. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you mean over a period of years as you have 
studied this question that you are able to identify or recognize these 
persons yourself ? 

Miss Huffman. Not only from that point, Doctor, but from the 
point of attending meetings that were purely Communist meetings 
at which they were the people in charge of the meetings. There is 
no question of that. 

Mr. Matthews. You are speaking of first-hand knowledge when 
you say the people there are Communists? 

Miss" Huffman. I know the people individually, personally — I saw 
these people in the audience. In fact, I spoke to some of them at 
the meeting as they came off the floor with the delegates. I am only 
mentioning those people that I know first-hand and am able to idea- 
tify. Lloyd Gough, who is in charge of the cultural division of the 
A. P. M., and who was one of the ringleadei's with the theater arts 
committee and Francis Bass and Morris Watson. 

I have given that just as a partial list of the people that I iden- 
tified. 

May I be permitted to go to the evening meeting? After we at- 
tended the A. P. M. meeting and that was a celebration for Norman 
Tallentire — that was a jubilee celebration for his fifty-fifth birtliday. 

Mr. Matthews. At any rate it was a birthday celebration? 

Miss Huffman. At any rate he was born on April 6, 1896 and it 
was the celebration of his birthday and his 40 years in the labor 
movement. 

The sponsors of that meeting are all of the people who are quoted 
in the Daily Worker, who are leaders in the Communist Party and 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8419 

known to ho the leaders in the Conniuinist Party. I thoupjht I \v,v\ 
that exhibit here but I haven't. 

At that nieetino; Rockwell Kent, William F. Dunne, Robert Dunn, 
Elizabeth (jurley Flynn, Joseph R. Brodsky, Isobel AValker Soule — 
William Z. Foster was scheduled to attend but sent his regrets — and 
William Dunne covered the part of the program which Mr. Foster 
was to cover. 

William E. Browder, the brother of Earl Browder, was one of the 
speakers at that meeting. Each speaker referred to the fact that he 
had been at the American Peoples Meeting; each one of them spoke 
of the necessity for the American Peace Mobilization and what it could 
do. ' 

Along with that they were describing how the exact place where each 
had fitted in on what might be termed the Communist "cause celebre" 
movement such as the Sacco-Vanzetti case^ the Tom Mooney case. 
They called themselves the agitators who had carried on all this agita- 
tion and activity on behalf of Tom Mooney and the Sacco-Vanzetti 
cases, the Butte {Mont.) case, the Montana Anaconda strike, the 
marble strike in Vermont, the activity for the recognition of the Soviet 
Union. 

As a matter of fact one comment that was made there by Mr. Tallen- 
tire was that they were largely responsible for the fact that the Soviet 
Union liad recognized the United States and went on to explain that 
was the way it really happened. 

Mr. William Dunne in telling of his activities during the 1923 and 
1924 period with the unemployed and in strike areas constantly re- 
ferred to the United States as "this Wall Street government." Rock- 
well Kent told of his activities in association with Norman Tallentire 
over this long period, and Rockwell Kent spoke of the activities of the 
United American Artists in the American Peace ^Mobilization. 

William E. Browder also told of his activities. I bring that out 
because there was no question in the subjects that they were covering 
and in tlieir activities about the fact that they had carried on this 
movement for the Communist Party. They so stated. And they 
closely associated the fact of the activity of the American Peace Mobi- 
lization Avith the Communist Party at that particular meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. I have a throw-away on the Norman Tallentire jubi- 
lee celebration. 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Was this distributed at the meeting of the American 
Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Htjffmax. I received this particular one, I know from the sig- 
nature in the right-hand corner, at the upper Manhattan American 
Peace Mobilization meeting. I have the exact date here that was on — 
March 26, 1941 — at whicli this Norman Tallentire was one of the prin- 
cipal speakers along with Rabbi Plotkin, of New Jersey. 

At that time Norman Tallentire, speaking at an American Peace 
Mobilization meeting, spoke of his 40 years in the progressive 
labor movement. He referred to himself as "a party member.'' He 
stated he was a delegate to the Chicago Mobilization for Peace in Sep- 
tember from the International Workers' Order, and that he was a 
delegate for the April 6 convention. 



3420 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

You see this meeting was before the Mecca Temple meeting, so he 
was telling that he was a delegate to the Mecca Temple meeting. 

He stated that the International Workers' Order had a membership 
of 1,700,000 people and "is a proud affiliate of the American Peace 
Mobilization." 

He credited efforts of the A. P. M. march on Washington for chang- 
ing the congressional vote on the conscription bill from, I quote : 

One vote on the first ballot to 163 votes on the final ballot. 

He stated and I quote : 

Efforts have been untiring since the Amsterdam Congress Against War to 
defeat efforts of Ford, Du Pont of Bethlehem Steel, and the rest of the warmongers 
to lead the people into imperialist wars. 

This speech that he made at the American Peace Mobilization 
was entirely pro-Soviet and along Communist Party lines, dealing 
with sharecroppers, housing, unemployment, conscription. He 
clahned that Great Britain through Halifax built up Hitler in an 
effort to cause a war to fight — and I quote : 

the only nation of the workers, the most glorious place in the world, a socialist 
nation that occupies one-sixth of the world. 

This praise of Soviet Russia and advantages of the Soviet Gov- 
ernment for the workers lasted 15 minutes. He stated : 

The purpose of peace mobilization is to cause all of us in every nation, after 
Germany and Britain are exhausted, to rise up and throw off the Fascist yoke 
in every nation — Italy, Germany, Britain, Africa, India, and these United States, 
and build a world republic of tlie workers. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you mean to say that there is no secret what- 
ever about Norman Tallentire being a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Miss Huffman. He doesn't make it any sex?ret because he tells 
when he joined it and when he went into the labor movement. He 
went into the Socialist Party in Canada first and then came to this 
country. He admits being a member of the Communist Party — he 
states he is. 

Mr. Matthews. He was one of the defendants in the famous 
Bridgeman Michigan criminal syndicalist trial some years ago, was 
he not? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Along with Foster and other Communist leaders? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews, Ancl the other persons you have named who were 
on the program at the Norman Tallentire celebration were openly 
and avowed members of the Communist Party? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. Kockwell Kent introduced them at the 
meeting as being Communists. 

Mr. Matthews. Was Rockwell Kent the master of ceremonies ? 

Miss Huffman. Rockwell Kent was master of ceremonies at that 
meeting; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, you were going to go back to the meeting 
at Mecca Temple. Have you concluded with the Norman Tallentire 
celebration ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. At the meeting at Mecca Temple the 
first plans were to have nothing carried on at Mecca Temple, I be- 



UX-AMEUICAN I'liOl'AtJANDA ACTIVITIES 8421 

lieve, except some of the conferences such as have been previoiiKly 
mentioned, whicli Avere held, some at Mecca Temph' and some in 
the various hotels. There was a great deal of confusion due to 
the fact that it was raining and no one could ascertain as to whether 
or not there wa;^ to be a Randall's Island meeting or not. Conse- 
quently we had time to circidate in the lobby and on the second 
floor where they were selling literature. The literature was for sale 
and also being distributed, and where the "free Browder" petition 
was being distributed there was a petition on the poll tax and 
subscriptions for various publications. 

It was finally announced that the meeing would be held at Ran- 
dall's Island, so we Avent up to Randall's Island. 

Mr. Starxes. Dr. Matthews, before you go into the Randall's 
Island meeting — I understand that is a rather important episode — 
can you tell me about what time you will take on this phase of the 
testimony? 

Mr. Mattiifavs. You were going to describe what transpired at 
the Mecca Tem])1e meeting with respect to Communist relationships 
to the organization, were you not? 

Miss HirFF:MAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. And how long will it take you to do that ? 

Miss Huffman. I think I can cover that in about 3 minutes. I may 
be underestimating myself. 

Mr. Matthews. Then we will be ready to adjourn. 

Mr. Starnes. We v^ill finish the Mecca Temple meeting and then 
we will recess for lunch. 

IMr. Matthews. Off the record. 

Mr. Starxes. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Starnes. We will take a recess at this time until 1 : 30 p. m. 

(WHiereupon, at 12 noon, a recess was taken until 1:30 p. m. the 
same day.) 

afternoon session 

(Whereupon, at 1:30 p. m., the hearing was resumed, pursuant 
to the taking of a recess.) 

jVIr. Starnes. The committee will please be in order. 
Who is your first witness, Dr. Matthews ? 
Mr. Matfhew^s. Miss Huffman. 

TESTIMONY OF HAZEL HUFFMAN— Resumed 

Mr. Matthews, ]\Ir. Chairman, we will ask Miss Huffman to con- 
tinue with her account of the meetings of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation held at Randall's Island and Mecca Temple on April 5 and 6 
of this year. Will you proceed. Miss Huffman? 

Mr. Starnes. Before you begin, Dr. Matthews, do you have pre- 
pared a chart or diagram of any kind or character showing the initia- 
tion of this American Peace Mobilization, its affiliation with the Com- 
munist Party in any way, and also any interlocking of interests or 
community of interests or community of control and so forth and 
so on with any of the other organizations which may be checked 
upon later? 



3422 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, Mr. Chairman,, we have an ehiborate chart 
of the American Peace Mobilization. It lists the officers and spon- 
sors not only of the organization but also their various connections 
with the Communist Party and front organizations of the Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr. Starnes. I would think that is of i)aramount interest to the 
committee and at the proper time and place, without interfering 
with your schedule of the hearing, let me suggest you introduce 
that and make it a part of the record because I think it is not only 
pertinent and very important that we have something like that 
for the record but the connnittee must have something of that nature. 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Starnes. You may proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Now will you proceed with your description of the 
meeting at Randalls Island and Mecca Templet 

Miss HuTTMAN. Yes, sir. At Mecca Temple on the second floor, 
which was used for the displays and the distribution of literature, the 
one side of the balcony had a huge display of the International Work- 
ers' Order and its plan of plenty — the publication The Plan of 
Plenty of the International Workers' Order. That was sold at the 
meeting. 

In fact, a number of the people who represented themselves as 
being strikebreakers from the Harvester strike as well as the Interna- 
tional Workers' Order people were distributing or selling this par- 
ticular booklet. 

The foreword in this booklet, which might be of interest to the com- 
mittee, is written by Herbert Benjamin, the national executive secre- 
tary of the I. W. O. 

Mr. Matthews. Herbert Benjamin was at one time the secretary- 
treasurer of the Workers Alliance; is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And also a member of the National Committee of 
the Communist Party? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; and this book — and the point that was 
brought out and was mentioned to me by a number of people who were 
selling the book and later at this Tallentire meeting by people who 
admitted being Communists was that it was to be the basis of a bill to 
be presented in Congress and in the Sunday Worker of May 11, 1940 — 
I am including this clipping which states one of the bills, H. R. 4688, 
embodies the principle of the plan for plenty originated and spon- 
sored by the International Workers' Order, the International Workers' 
Order having been set up in 1930 by the Central Committee of the 
Communist Party. 

I am particularly mentioning that because at both the Mecca Temple 
meeting and the subsequent meetings the International Workers' 
Order — being set up by the Communist Party, shows a definite Com- 
munist connection — because of their membership, practically every 
committee had a person who can be identified as a member of the 
International Workers' Order. 

Mr. Mattheavs. The International Workers' Order is officially one 
of the affiliated bodies of the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. I read that in this morning's testimony, that Nor- 
man Tallentire said — I gave the exact quote of Norman Tallentire of 



UN-AMKIIICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8423 

their full support of the Aniorican Poace Mobilization, thoir affilia- 
tion Avitli tlie American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. MArrnEws. Mr. Chairman, I ask this clipping be introduced in 
tlie record at this point. 

Mr. Starxes. It is so ordered. 

(The clipping was marked "Huffman Exhibit No. 4.") 

Mr. Matthews. You may proceed. 

Miss Huffman. The other piece of literature that was perhaps out- 
stand ino- was the book Soviet Power, written by the Dean of Canter- 
bury. There was a huge display sign on the second floor of Mecca 
Temple, and special prices were being offered by the American Coun- 
cil on Soviet Relations. A number of the people who claimed to be 
strikers and who were also selling the Harvester literature to raise 
funds for the strikers were also engaged in selling this book, Soviet 
Power, which was offered at this special price. 

Mr. Starnes. You keep speaking of "strikers," Miss Huffman. 
Was that at the International Harvester plants? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Men from those plants? 

Miss Huffman. Y^es, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you see or converse with any people or persons 
at either the Mecca Temple meeting or the Randall's Island meeting 
who claimed to be strikers in the AUis-Chalmers i^lant at Milwaukee? 

Miss Huffman. Y^es. In fact this is literature that was sold in 
order to raise funds for the men who were on strike. This one piece 
of literature was the publication from the Allis-Chalmers. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Mr. Chairman, will you have this introduced in 
the record at this point? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Miss Huffman. There are two pieces of literature on the Allis- 
Chalmers. 

Mr. Starnes. Both will be received. 

(The literature referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit 
No. 5.") 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Harold Christoffel 
was formerly connected with the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Y^'es, sir ; and he is included on our chart. 

Mr. Matthews. And do you know whether or not Harold Chris- 
toffel ndflressed a meeting, a mass meeting of the American Peace 
Mobilization, here in "Washington about 2 weeks ago? 

Miss Huffman. I saAv an account of it. I did not cover the 
meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. And Harold Christoffel is the leader of the Allis- 
Chalmers local of the United Automobile Workers? 

Miss Huffman. Y^'es, sir. 

Other literature that was being sold or distributed was that of the 
American Student Union and an announcement of the Cornell and 
Xew Y^ork University dance for the delegates. 

Mr. Matthews. Before you leave the International Harvester strik- 
ers, you say they attended the meeting in New York? 

Miss Huffman. Now, just a moment. Doctor; I have the point 
here where they were introduced on the platform. Mr. Felhaber, 
vice president of the Ohio C. I. O., introduced 



8424 UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. His first name is Elmer, is it not ? 

Miss Huffman. I think so. Elmer Felhaber introduced "Brother 
Enoch Rollback," and he was introduced as one of the leaders of 
the Allis-Chahners strike. 

Mr. Rollback told of the women and children sitting on the lawn in 
the park and how the police threw tear-gas bombs into their midst. 
He told how one deputy sheriff resigned in disgust after this hap- 
pened. He told of the tear-gas battle and stated: "It was not with- 
out casualties, 42 deputy sheriffs," and the audience at the A. P. M. 
immediately gave considerable applause to the fact that 42 deputy 
sheriffs had been injured. 

Mr. Rollback went on to say: 

"We, too, bear scars, honor scars," which brought applause. Then 
he appealed to the audience for funds to help the strikers, stating 
that the strike had been going on for a long time and that most of 
the strikers were living on the county. He stated that they had 
raised $1,000 bail for one fellow the F. B. I. got and "$10,000 bail 
had to be raised in one day." 

Then the strike delegates from the Allis-Chalmers went through 
the audience and distributed these circulars that have previously been 
entered in the record, distributed them in exchange for contributions 
to continue the strike. 

Then Mr. Felhaber introduced Senator Novak, the State senator 
from Michigan. 

Mr. Matthews, That is N-o-v-a-k? 

Miss Huffman. Yes; Stanley Novak, and he was introduced as 
an outstanding organizer in the labor movement from the Ford 
organization camp. 

He constantly referred to the Ford police and the Gestapo, and 
Mr. Novak claimed that TO percent of the Ford workers live in his 
district and he claimed he had been elected to the State senate by 
the C. I, O, organization, that he had been in the Ford organizing 
staff for a number of months. He said that the Ford workers were 
really organized and "there is no greater danger to American democ- 
racy than the Ford Motor Co." 

He also stated that while on the floor of the senate, that is, the 
State senate, on Tuesday, "the news reached me the Ford plant was 
down — shut down," and the audience went into perhaps the loudest 
burst of applause up to that time of the meeting. It was greeted 
with a great deal of cheering. 

Mr. Staknes, This was a meeting of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes; a meeting of the American Peace Mobiliza- 
tion. And he said that that was cei-tainly good news, that the plant 
was shut down. He stated that he had participated in practically 
every auto strike since 1030 — General IVIotors, Chrysler, Plymouth, 
and Ford. He said that Ford is the most comj^lete success and 
"the plant is closed," 

Every reference that was made to Harry Bennett was greeted by 
boos from the audience. Senator Novak also mentioned that he 
is head of the Stanley Novak Federation, of Detroit, Mich,, and this 
organization is one of the organizational sponsors of the American 
Peace Mobilization. 



UN-AMERICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIA^TIES §425 

Mr. Novak introduced one of the men from the picket line at the 
Ford plant, ''lirother Goor<ie Davis." The audience when Mr. 
Davis — wheii (ieorge Davis came on the platform, he was the first 
colored man who had been introduced at that day's meeting, the 
audience meeting — tlie audience immediately burst into singing 
Solidarity Forever. 

Mr. Netf then introduced several strikers from the International 
Harvester strike in Chicago. 

Mr. :MA'rTHEWS. That is Walter Scott Neff ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What is his relationship to the American Peace 
Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Dr. Walter Scott Neff is in charge of the New 
York Council. 

Mr. Matthews. He is one of the professors from the City College 
that was ousted as a result of the investigation of the Coudert com- 
mittee ? 

Miss Huffman. Bob Travis, of Cleveland, was the first striker that 
Dr. Neff had introduced. 

Mr. Matthews. And he was from the International Harvester 
strike? 

Miss Hufftvian. He w^as from the International Harvester strike. 
He paid tribute to John L. Lewis and the United Mine Workers, 
which brought forth applause from the audience, and stated : "We 
have told the bosses, 'Get on tlie line or we are out too.' " 

He also stated that the "Harvesters are fighting American fascism 
in the form of the Chicago Police Department." Every reference 
at this American Peace Mobilization meeting that was made to the 
Chicago Police Department or the Kelly-Nash machine, as it was 
called, met with boos from the audience. Mr. Travis claimed that 
there were 65,000 new C. I. O. members in Illinois due to the Harvester 
strike, and he quoted John Lewis as saying : "Forty-five million people 
will not become indentured slaves of this country." 

Mr. Matthews. Do vou know whether or not this is the same Bob 
Travis who led the sit-down strikes at Flint, Mich.? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In 1936? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; it is, and that was brought out by — I was 
sitting with the Kentucky delegation and the woman who was sitting 
next to me knew IMr. Travis from the Flint, Mich., strike and had 
mentioned the Flint, Mich., strike. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, who else was there from the International 
Harvester strikers? 

Miss HuFi^MAN. Those are the only names that I have on this 
report, Doctor. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Grant Oakes is the head of the union which 
was on strike? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. At the International Harvester? 

Miss puFFMAN. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Matthews. The Farm Equipment Workers Organizing Com- 
mittee? 

Miss HuFFaiAN. Yes, sir. 



8426 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have any record of Grant Oakes' connec- 
tion with the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; Grant Oakes is listed on the chart. 

Mr. Matthews. He is one of the officers of the American Peace 
Mobilization, is he not? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; he is a member of the national executive 
council. The address of the national office is 1133 Broadway. That 
is just above Twenty-sixth Street in Manhattan. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you give us a list of the officers? 

Miss Huffman. Do you want a list of the national officers at this 
time ? 

Mr. Starnes. I don't want to interrupt you now — we will lake that 
up later. 

Miss Huffman. Noav, other than the strikers I would like to go 
back to Randall's Island. The Randall's Island rally was called off. 
We did go to Randall's Island and we took in our car three people 
who Avere in attendance at the meeting. One of them was a man 
named Jack Marshall, a delegate from the C. I. O. United Electrical, 
Radio and Machine Workers of America ; Shrover, the Ohio delegate 
from Cleveland: and Jack Wallace, formerly of the Art Project of 
the W. P. A., New York City. 

Mr. Marshall stated that he had with him the credentials of Mr. 
Fahy, vice president of the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine 
Workers of America. 

Mr. Marshall, in talking to us on the way to the meeting, was very 
frank about the fact that he belonged to the Communist Party. 

Mr. Shrover was frank about the fact that he was connected with 
the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. When we reached Randall's Island 
the rain had already started. The group was small but there was, 
I would say, approximately 50 people of the Abraham Lincoln Bri- 
gade there with a large pennant. 

The outstanding event at the rally was the songs that they sang. 
In between every other song they sang Solidarity Forever. The 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade sang the Internationale and sang the Abra- 
ham Lincoln Brigade Marching Song. There was frequent singing of 
We Will Hang Henry Ford From A Sour Aj^ple Tree, and Why Do 
You Stand There In^ the Rain, the Ballad of October 16, and Billy 
Boy. 

I am mentioning those songs because those are exactly the same 
songs that are sung at all of the other meetings that are conducted by 
the Communists. They are the songs that appear in the American 
Peace Mobilization book of songs that is distributed at their meetings. 

Mr. Starnes. They have a book of songs, do they ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, Congressman Starnes. 

Mr. Matthews. May we have this introduced in the record at this 
point ? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. This is American Songs for American Peoples 
Meeting, April 5 and 6, American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. It will be received in evidence. 

(The booklet referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit No. 6.") 

Mr. Mattheavs. Now, while we are on the subject of songs. Miss 
Huffman, have you seen the album of records which is published as 
a special edition for the American Peace Mobilization? 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES §427 

Miss HuFFArAN, Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether this is one of those al- 
bums of records that I am luuuling you? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Staknes. Do you desire to have those attached as exhibits? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; I think they slioukl be attached as exhibits. 

Mr. Starnes. And make proper reference to them in the record. 

Mr. INIatthews. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The phonograph records referred to were marked "Huflman 
Exhibits Nos. 7, 7-A, 7-B, 7-C, and 7-D.") 

Mr. Matthj:ws. Now here is a throw-away put out by the dis- 
pensers of these records in which there is advertised this special 
A. P. M. edition of this album. 

I would like for Miss Huffman to read the words of two or three 
of these songs. Will you first read the words of a song entitled, 
"C for Conscription/' wliich appears on one of the records. 

Miss Huffman. Dr. Matthews, on the point of the records, on 
this balcony floor where the books were being sold, they had a vic- 
trola there with a man in attendance, that constantly played these 
recortls and a special price was olfered with a huge sign announcing 
the special price for the recordings. 

C for ConscriptioD and C for Capitol Hill ; 

C for Conscription and C for Capitol Hill ; 

It's C for the Congress that passed that godamned bill. 

This here New York City water tastes like cherry wine ; 

This here New York City water tastes like cherry wine; 

They tell me army water tastes like turpentine. 

I'd rather be here at home, even living in a hollow log ; 

I'd rather be here at home, even living in a hollow log ; 

Than go to the Army, be treated like a dirty dog. 

WASHINGTON BREAK-DOWN 

Franklin D., listen to me, yon ain't a-gonua send me 'cross the sea ; you ain't 
a-gonna send me 'cross tlie sea : 

You may say it's for defense, it's that kinda talk that I'm against; I'm 
against, I'm against, that kinda talk ain't got uo sense. 

Lafayette, we are here, we're gonna stay right over here; we're gonna stay 
right over here. 

.Marcantonio is the best. l)Ut I wouldn't give a nickel for all the rest; I 
wouldn't give a nickel for all the rest. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that the end of that song? 

Miss Huffman. Yes; the next song is Washington Break-down 
which I have read. 

Mr. Matthews. I think Ave might omit the next stanza, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

Miss Huffman. I think it is a good example of their filthy minds. 

;Mr. Matthews. It is a rather personal reference to Mr. J. P. 
^lorgan. 

Mr. Starnes. Go ahead. 

Miss Huffman. 

"Wendell Willkie and Franklin D., seems to me they both agree; they both 
agree on killin' me. 

Mr. Mattheavs'. Xow there is a chorus of the Ballad of October 16. 

Miss Huffman. This Ballad of October 16— after the meetings are 

over, that is the upper Manhattan meeting, the Harlem meetmg, the 



8428 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

midtown meeting, they get into Childs Restaurant or any place else, 
and while they are eating they just seem to burst spontaneously into 
this and Solidarity Forever, and I am just going to read the first 
verse and the chorus. 

It was on a Saturday night and the moon was shining bright ; 

They passed the conscription bill and the people they did say for many miles 
away, 

'Twas the President and his boys on Capitol Hill. 

Oh, Franklin Roosevelt told the people how he felt ; 

We damned near believed what he said. 

He said "I hate war, and so does Eleanor, but we won't be safe 'till every- 
body's dead." 

Mr. Mattheavs. Mr. Chairman, we would like to have the entire 
collection of songs introduced at this point in the record. 

Mr. Starnes. Yes; they will be introduced in the record and I 
presume the records have been identified and will be kept as exhibits? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; I would like to introduce the pamphlet 
"Songs for John Doe" and one other has already been received. 

(The song pamphlet referred to was marked "Huffman Ex- 
hibit No. 8.") 

Miss Huffman. At the Mecca Temple meeting one of the speakers 
was Esther Cooper, secretary of the Southern Negro Youth Congress, 
who brought greetings from the Southern Congress. Miss Cooper 
was followed by Mr. Hunter of the W. P. A. Committee for the Con- 
tinuation of W. P. A. Then Adolph Heller, of the Philadelphia 
Civil Liberties Union and former director of the Workers' School in 
Philadelphia — that is the Communist Party Workers' School in Phila- 
delphia, spoke regarding 

Mr. Starnes. Just a moment. Is that the Heller to whom refer- 
ence has been made in previous hearings? 

Mr. Matthews. That is Mr. A. A. Heller, the head of the Inter- 
national Publishers. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Miss Huffman. And Mr. Bernard Rush, who spoke regarding the 
trial of himself and stated that incidentally — he stated incidentally 
that the bomb that had been planted at the Workers School had been 
planted by the New York Police Department. 

IVir. Matthews. Now, Miss Huffman, Adolf Heller and Rush were 
recently tried in Philadelphia? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. For planting a bomb, or having in their posses- 
sion a bomb, in the Workers' School ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In Philadelphia? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; but his statement from that platform at 
that meeting 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the New York police had planted the 
bomb ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir, that the bomb had been planted by the 
New York police department and it was the same kind of a ruse 
that had been used against Tom Mooney, and he requested the 
A. P. M. delegates to take a stand against that, because he said that, 
the only way they could possibly succeed was if they had the support 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8429 

of the A, P. i\r., and tliat was crrectod with apphiuse and apparent, 
approval by the people in that audience. 

Reference to Dr. J, B. JMatthews, brought lusty hisses from the 
audience. 

C'lancy ]\Iiller of the International Workers Order, and Roxie 
Jones were brief speakers at the meeting. Mr. Abraham Eisserman 
gave a sumuiary of the meeting and the meeting closed with Chester 
Watson, of Minnesota, singing another one of their songs, not pre- 
viously mentioned : Not you, Mr. War, 

An announcement was made that the Workers' Alliance would hold 
a special meeting in the registration room. Dr. Annette Ruben- 
stein, who was previously mentioned, was one of the speakers. Mrs. 
Eileen Davis Hays, wife of John Garfield Hays, was a speaker and. 
stated that the Women's Auxiliary of the National Maritime Union 
was sending a telegram to Mrs. Roosevelt. Mrs. Katherine Beecher 
spoke in place of Miss Trice, of the Federal Communications Com- 
mission. 

She spoke on the need to educate women to positions of union 
leadership after the men were drafted. Frederick Field then spoke 
on establishing opposition to war and continuing the struggle for 
peace. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is Frederick Field? 

Miss Huffman. Frederick Field is the national executive secretary 
of the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. Miss Huffman, this seems to be the first time we 
have found any speaker or any participant in all these meetings who 
has ever gotten down to the subject of peace. 

Miss Huffman. Yes. Congressman Starnes; that is why I men- 
tioned it. He was practically the only speaker who dwelt even 
lightly on the matter of peace. The entire meeting, just giving a 
summary of the 2 days, the entire meeting was a strike campaign. 
All of the speakers merely emphasized the fact that should we be- 
come any closer to war, labor is not going to participate, labor was 
going to strike; that further strikes were needed — that people were 
to contribute to the strikes and give assistance to the strikers. The 
entire meeting was a strike meeting. 

Mr. Starxes. Did they say this was necessary in order to sabotage 
the defense program or to disrupt production for security in order 
to keep this country out of an imperialist war, or on what theme did 
they base the necessity of continued strikes? Was that the theme 
of it, that they were continuing these strikes so as to disrupt pro- 
duction and keep this country out of war or place this country in a 
position where it couldn't engage in an imperialist war? Is that the 
idea? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; and the fact that labor is cari-ying on 
these strikes would make it impossible for us to participate in the 
war and tliat the thing that must be em])hasized was conditions at 
home and the need for solidarity and the fact that the workers were 
to get everything that they wanted. 

I have a list here of the various organizations that contributed and 
individuals, where the contributions were announced from the floor. 
Shall I bring that in, Dr. Matthews? 

Mr. Matthews. Do you want that list, Mr. Chairman? 



8430 " UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. It may be a little lengthy to read, but does it show 
the contribution from Communist sources or subversive sources? 

Mr. Matthews. It is just a single page. 

Mr. Starnes. Let me get this straight — there was an announce- 
ment fi'om the floor of those who had made contributions to the 
support of the meeting? 

Miss Huffman. The girls passed through the meeting taking up 
these contributions and as they were taken to the platform the money 
was held up and an announcement was made that that contribution 
had been made. A majority of them are Communist organizations. 

Mr. Starnes. Suppose you read that then, and we will insert it 
in the record. 

(The list referred to is as follows:) 

Washington A. P. M. delegates — $100.00 

New York 250. 00 

American Youth Congress 100. UO 

Farmers Union of Alabama 100. 00 

Jonnie Bernard, Minnesota 25. 00 

Jewish People of America 50. 00 

Massachusetts Peace Council 50.00 

Veterans of Abraham Lincoln Brigade 25. 00 

National staff, A. P. M 25.00 

Maryland 2.5. 00 

Local No. 65, Warehouse Employees 12. 0<) 

Kansas ^. 5.00 

Philadelphia Peace Mobilization ^0. 00 

Joint Board of Furriers Union. 225. 00 

Albany 5.00 

I. W. O., branch 32 — 3.00 

Rockaway Council 5. 00 

Bronx Study Club 5.00 

U. A. W. (United Automobile Workers) 2.5.00 

Steel Workers Council of Youngstown 25.00 

Ford Strikers, Negro and white 27.35 

Washington Youth Coiuicil — 5. 00 

St. Louis and Kansas City 10. 00 

Miimesota 30. 00 

Florida—^ 25100 

North Carolina 5. 00 

Rhode Island 2.5. 00 

California 100.00 

North Jersey 60. 40 

C. I. O. Philadelphia Committee for Peace 23. 00 

Doctors of Crown Heights Hospital 2. .50 

Mr. VooEHis. Nobody thinks the Farmers' Union is a Communist 
organization ; do they ? 

Mr. Matthews. Well, the list simply includes the name of Farmers 
Union of Alabama. 

Mr. VooRHis. I understand, but it was introduced with that im- 
proper observation. 

Miss Huffman. That a majority were. Congressman Voorhis. 

Mr. Matthews. I don't know whetlier we have the same organiza- 
tion in mind. 

Mr. Starnes. There is one that is definitely so. 

Mr. Voorhis. The Farmers' Union of the United States is one 
of the three major farm organizations of the country. 

Mr. Matthews. There is a Farmers' Union, about which there 
is a good deal of testimony that has been presented to this committee 
for a period of years, to which I think this refers. 

Mr. Starnes. That is right. 



UX-AMEIUCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §431 

Miss HuFFMAX. There are ii few adilitionsil names of contribu- 
tors — may we include these — Two Photographers from Friday, $18; 
Peace Council of Connecticut, $100; and Striking Mine Workers, $5. 

They had taken up a collection for the striking mine workers and 
then the striking; mine workers gave a contribution to the American 
Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. VoORHis. You don't happen to know what happened to the 
contribution for the miners; do you? 

Miss Huffman. I have never heard of them making an accounting, 
Congressman Voorhis, of what they do with the contributions. 

Mr. Starnes. Did I understand you to say that they did take up 
a contribution there for the striking mine workers and then that the 
strikin<r mine workers made a contribution to the American Peace 
Mobilization? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. Mason. Which is an excellent example of cooperation. 

Miss Huffman. The two committees in which I was particularly 
interested, that is the two conference committees in which I was par- 
ticularly interested, were also carried on at Mecca Temple, was the 
commission on draft and military camps; and Joseph Cadden, presi- 
dent of the American Youth Congress 

Mr. Matthews. Not president but I think executive secretary. 

Miss Huffman. Executive secretary of the American Youth Con- 
gress, was the keynoter for that meeting. 

I had managed to obtain admission to one of the labor committee 
meetings. I did not have credentials. I talked my way in, and I was 
in the one; but two people there recognized me so when I tried to 
gain entrance to the draft and military camp committee I was un- 
successful, but I did see two boys in uniform, one a sergeant and one 
a private, go into that meeting. 

There is an article regarding the talk was given by these two boys 
from Fort Dix at this conference and it is in the literature that was 
put out by the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you give us that speech or those talks? 

Miss Huffman. It was in reference to the condition at camp and 
the fact that they needed help. We have it right here. Dr. Matthews 
[reading] : 

Soldier Asks A. P. M. to Protect Draftees' Rights 

A proposal to set up national and local A. P. M. committees to protect the wel- 
fare of draftees and their families was unanimously accepted by the commis- 
sion on draft and military camps after a spirited discussion which was high- 
lighted by the presence of a yoimg man in uniform from Camp Dix. 

Louis ^IcCabe, a Philadelpiiia attorney and vice president of the National 
Lawyers (iuild, chairman of the discussion, led off with proposals for amend- 
ments to the Burke-Wadsworth hill that would guarantee free siieech and civil 
liberties in the camp, and to put teeth in the health guaranties for conscripts, 
protect the right to vote and do away with Negro discrimination in the draft. 

For almost an hour the draftee from Fort Dix answered questions about con- 
ditions in the camps. He descril)e(l how draftees at Fort Dix, watching a recent 
IMarch of Time movie had brolveu out into hearty applause when Congressman 
IMarcantimio appearefl on the screen and denounced the war. 

The biggest fear among conscripts is that they are not in the Army just for 
a year, but as the officers say "for the duration." 

The young man reported that cases of meningitis and scarlet fever had proved 
fatal at the camp and that cases of insanity were frequent. 

62626— 41— vol. 14 18 



3432 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Emerson Daggett, representative of the San Francisco Industrial Union Coun- 
cil, told of plans to start a recreation center for the boys in the California camps. 
He proposed that local A. P. M. groups, together with the trade unions and 
youth groups, establish such centers where conscripts can find educational and 
recreational activities which are sorely lacking in the camps. Mr. Daggett 
emphasized the necessity of miions and other groups maintaining contact with 
their members who were drafted. 

Support for the Murray bill which would defer all medical students and in- 
ternes and place draft doctors only in the Medical Corps was expressed by 
the members of the commission. 

The commission endorsed the Marcantonio bill to repeal the Draft Act and 
recommended that the A. P. M. work for the passage of this bill at the same 
time that it carried on campaigns to improve the welfare of draftees. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you concluded with this meeting at Mecca 
Temple? 

Miss Huffman. No. Then the United States Foreign Policy Com- 
mission, the chairman for that meeting was Max Yergan of the Ameri- 
can Negro or National Negro Congress — I am bringing that out be- 
cause on both of these there is evidence proving tliat they are 
Communists who headed these various committees — these various 
groups which were in charge of the meeting. 

Then under labor they had one general conference, the chairman 
of which was Donald Henderson, and Morris Watson was the 
secretary. 

Mr. Matthews. Before we leave that point, Mr. Chairman, per- 
haps it should be observed here if the witness knows the fact, that 
Donald Henderson was the first executive secretary of the American 
League Against War and Fascism, and then later the American 
League for Peace and Democracy; that he is publicly an avowed 
member of the Communist Party and he is also head or president of 
one of the C. I. O. unions. 

Mr. Staknes. He was present at this meeting? 

Mr. Matthews. He presided. 

Miss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. He presided at the labor conference that was held 
there ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; the general conference, the big general 
conference at which their new group was set up. 

The others who appeared on that — there are 10 in all, half of 
them appear on the list in the congressional record of the Communists 
in C. I. O. organizations. They were C. J. Edelen — I am reading 
all 10 — Bob Travis, Daniel Allen, and Courtney Ward. They were 
the chairmen. The keynoters were Red Robinson, Al Stonkus, Elmer 
Felhaber, Morris Watson, and Louis Merrill. 

Those were the 10 and 5 of those apj)ear on that other list. 

Mr. VooEHis. Which other list? 

Miss HuFi^MAN. On the list that appears in the congressional 
record of the C. I. O. — Communists in C. I. O. organizations. 

At this general conference there was set up a National Labor Com- 
mittee Against War of the American Peace Mobilization, of which 
Morris Watson was made provisional secretary. 

Mr. Matthews. Morris Watson is the vice president of the Amer- 
ican Newspaper Guild, is he not? 

Miss Huffman. I have the history of Morris Watson. Shall I 
go into it? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §433 

Mr. Matthews, Mr. Chairman, do you want an account of Morris 
Watson in the record at this point? 

Mr. Starnes. Was he jiresent at this meeting, taking an active 
part in the meeting? 

Mr. MvrTHEws. He was the keynoter. 

Miss HuFFMAX. And made provisional secretary of the big group 
they set up since 

jS'lr. Matthews. He is secretary of the National Labor Committee 
of the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. You have his record there ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]MASt)N. Let us have his record. 

Mr. Staknes. All right. 

Miss Huffman. Morris Watson, chairman of the National — pro- 
visional secretary of the National Labor Committee Against War of 
the American Peace Mobilization. He is a vice president of the 
American Newspaper Guild. He was a signer of the "Free Browder" 
petitions that were signed at the American Peace Mobilization meet- 
ing, and a list of the names appear in the Daily Worker for May 2. 
He is active head of the left-wing division of the American Labor 
Party. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the Progressive Committee to Kebuild the 
American Labor Party? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. Dr. Matthews. He is a member of the execu- 
tive committee of the National Federation for Constitutional Liber- 
ties. Literature of that organization was also distributed at the 
A. P. M. meeting, one of them being "Witch Hunt, 1941, Hits Gov- 
ernment Workers." and another one "Investigating Committees and 
Civil Rights." JNIorris Watson's name appears on their call for 
action not on this original. 

INIr. Starnes. Those can be attached to the record as exhibits. 

(The pamphlets referred to were marked "Huffman Exhibits 
Nos. 9 and 10.") 

Miss HuFT'MAN. Tliese are both attacks on investigating com- 
mittees and tell how not to accept a subpena, to a large extent. 
Then the "Call for National Action Conference for Civil Eights" 
that Avas held in the Hotel Hamilton in Washington, D. C. This 
was distributed — these were sold and this was distributed at that 
meeting and a list of the officers and sponsors that appear on the 
back page, 41 of them are either officers, national officers, not local, 
or sponsors of the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have that list? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]\Iatthews. Including Morris Watson? 

Miss Huffman. Including Morris Watson; yes. 

]\Ir. Matthews. Do you have the rest of Morris Watson's record 
there ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; I have Morris Watson. He is editor of 
Release, a new publication published by the Jewish People's Com- 
mittee, for which circulars were distributed at that meeting. And 
he was a national member of the executive board of the American 
League for Peace and Democracy. That appears on their letterhead 
for March 24, 1939. Morris Watson was also a speaker at a meeting 



8434 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

in April of 1940, at which Elizabeth Giiiley Flynn, a member of 
the national committee of the Communist Party was a speaker, and 
Dr. Ned Dearborn, of the American Committee for Democracy and 
Intellectual Freedom. Their literature was distributed at the meet- 
ing. Morris Watson was a former — the unit manager of the Living 
Newspaper Unit of the Federal Theater Project, W. P. A. 

I have here three articles that were written by Morris Watson 
for the New Theater Magazine. The first article is a description 
of the Living Newspaper Unit of the Federal Theater Project, in 
which it states : 

As long as it is part of the W. P. A. it will be subject to petty and unfair 
attacks from those revolutionary forces which see red in every letter of relief. 

The second article has to do with a mass meeting, held in New 
York City for W. P. A. employees and supervisors. The third 
article which appears in the April 1937 issue of the New Theater 
Magazine, called Sit-down Strikes, is about a play directefl by 
Mr. Watson for the General Motors strikers. The play was a 
play using General Motors strikers to be presented before the 
strikers at the Union Hall in Flint, Mich. Mention is also made of 
the speech by Mr. Watson in Lansing, Mich., that he was to make 
2 days after this play was given, for the League for Industrial 
Democracy. Incidentally, at that time, and I verified that a few 
years back, Mr. Watson was a Federal Theater Project administra- 
tive employee, supervisor at the time that he staged this play — this 
sit-down strike play in Flint, Mich., where Mr. Watson, of course, 
will be recalled as a former vice president of the Associated Press. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did you say he gave a play for the League for Indus- 
trial Democracy? 

Miss HuFFJUAN. He made a speech for them. 

Mr. VooRHis. Are you sure about that name ? 

Miss Huffman. I will read what the magazine says : 

When I arrived in Flint to lecture before the League for Industrial Democracy 
on the Monday before the General Motors strike settlement I found Mary Henton 
and Joseph Hernie industriously preparing a living newspaper script on the 
strike. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is all — did you say he was vice president of the 
Associated Press ? 

Miss Huffman. No, Congressman Voorhis ; I started to read some- 
thing. He was vice president of the News])aper Guild and a member 
of the — a speaker for the International Workers' Order. He was 
conference chairman at the national conference of the Workers' 
Alliance of America, speaker at the conference of the Washington 
Committee for Democratic Action, and a signer of an open letter for 
closer cooperation with the Soviet Union, and a sponsor of the Con- 
sumers' National Federation, a speaker for the American Student 
Union, a speaker for the Committee for Peoples' Rights, a member of 
the Advisory Board of Frontier Films, on the council of the United 
States Veterans, Inc., a member of the advisory board — and his name 
appears on their letterhead — a speaker at the Greenwich Village mass 
meeting for peace of the New York Peace Association. And Morris 
Watson is head of this gi'oup that has been set up — amiouncement has 
been made at the Building Trades Peace Council, wliich is a branch of 



un-a:^ierican propaganda activities 8435 

this National Labor Committee Against War. This jrroup has been 
set up to form peace <>r()iii)s from 16 different trades. 

The executive board of that Buiklin<2; Trades Peace Council has 
Tim Murphy as president of the executive board. He is a member 
of the CompVesstMl Air and Tunnel Workers' Local 147; Joe Maroolin, 
secretary of the Electrical Workers Union Local No. 3; and then there 
are 15 meml)ers on the executive board. 

At the Buildina" Workers Peace Council meeting among the speakers 
^vere Gino Rardi, the editor of L'Unita del Popolo, that was mentioned 
this morning; Oscar Schellner, administrative secretary; Frank Wed- 
dell, president of Local 840 of the Painters' Union. They took action 
supi)orting the transport workers House Resolution 3994, which is 
called the Marcantonio bill, the struggle of Ireland, support of the 
Teachers' Union, the Tobey resolution to prohibit an increase in the 
Federal appropriation for the unemployed, a larger housing program, 
and union rights. 

I ]nit those in. Congressman Starnes, because that is the active rather 
than the peace activities that are carried on by all of the so-called 
peace organizations. 

Mr. Staenes. In other words, you put in here their so-called legis- 
lative program or the conference agenda that they had at the meeting 
at Mecca Temple, plus the local meeting that they had? 

]Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. To show that the true character of it is not a peace 
group, but merely a political grouj) whose antecedents are now sub- 
ject to ciuestion. and whose relation to the Communist Party and con- 
trolled by the Communist Party, you have given testimony here today ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes; and the principal activities appear to be to 
organize a gigantic strike movement. 

Mr. VooRHis. Now, just a minute. I think you misspoke yourself 
a moment ago. You said that these were the activities of all peace 
movements. You don't mean to say that, do you? 

Miss Huffman. Of the American branches of the American Peace 
Mobilization. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is right. And in the second place I would like 
to ask you this: You don't mean, do you, to imply that an interest 
in unemployment, for instance, or some of the otlier things that you 
mentioned in that list is an indication that anyone who is interested 
in those things is pursuing a Communist course, do you? 

Miss Huffman. No, Congressman Yoorhis. 

Mr. VooRHis. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. 

Miss Huffman. No. 

Mr. Yoorhis. But rather to show that this organization setting it- 
self up as being an American Peace Mobilization has as a matter of 
fact undertaken a great wide range of activities, covering many 
different things and presumably with the idea — under Communist 
leaderslii]! — of ):»enetrating into a lot of different movements, using 
this as a focal point, is that right? 

Miss Huffman. That is correct. 

Mr. Yoorhis. Although many of those enterprises and aims may 
be fundamentally sound and just and right? 

Miss Huffman, Yes. 



8436 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. 1 think it is important to make that point. 

Mr. Mason. I would like if we can have the official reporter state 
exactly wliat the lady said. I didn't get it as yon inteipreted it. 

Mr. VooRHis. I am not criticising her at all. 

Mr. Mason. You stated she made a certain remarlc which I am 
quite sure she didn't make in the way you said it and on that basis 
you are questioning the testimony. I am sure that the stenographer 
can give us the exact statement. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you read the statement, Mr. Reporter? 

(Statement read.) 

Miss Huffman. The latest activity of this National Labor Com- 
mittee Against War has been the signing of a call by 25 union lead- 
ers, for a conference to be held on May 26, of which Morris Watson 
will be the head, and notices have been sent, according to their an- 
nouncement, to all labor unions in New York City. 

Mr. VooRHis. When you say "25 union leaders," I am inclined to 
think you ought to explain what you mean by that. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Have you the list of the signers ? 

Miss Huffman. Not of that list, but on the union leaders I 
thought I had the file here on the labor unions. 

Mr. Matthews. Congressman Voorhis, the announcement of the 
American Peace Mobilization simply states "signed by 25 of the city's 
outstanding trade-union leaders." 

Mr. VooRHis. Let us make it plain that when that aimouncement 
says that that the probabilities are there are not 25 outstanding trade- 
union leaders as ordinarily understood in the labor movement in the 
United States. 

Mr. Maithews. Mr. Chairman, at this point we would like to re- 
call Miss Spargo. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you want to insert in the record at this point that 
call with reference to the 25 prominent trade-union leaders? 

M. Matthews. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

(The document referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit 
No. IL") 

TESTIMONY OF MARY SPARGO— Resumed 

Mr. Mattheavs. Will you give an account of what you found to be 
the situation in the Bituminous Coal Commission, as it bears upon the 
American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Spargo. On March 18 of this year, this throw-away or flyer 
advertising a meeting of the American Peace — or the Washington 
Peace Mobilization rally at Turner's Arena, Avas found on eveiy 
desk on the eleventh and twelfth floors of the Bituminous Coal Com- 
mission. The speakers at this Turner's Arena rally were to be 
Anna Louise Strong; Eugene P. Connolly, chairman of the Progres- 
sive Committee to Rebuild the American Labor Party; George U. 
Murphy, administrative secretary of the National Negro Conference 
or Congress; and Sarah V. Montgomery, secretarj^-treasurer of the 
Washington Peace Mobilization, 

I have certain information concerning how these came to be dis- 
tributed. I am very glad to give you the names of my informants 
in executive session and some of the people are willing to appear be- 



UN-AJIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8437 

fore the committee in executive session, but I will omit at this time the 
names. 

]Mr. ]\Iattheavs. "Will you state the reasons you are not naming the 
individuals when you give an account of this incident? 

Miss Spahgo. Yes. sir; these individuals have told me that they are 
afraid to testifv^ concerning the activities of the American Peace 
Mobilization, for fear of losing their jobs. Some of them have said 
that they are afraid of physical violence from the Communists. 

Mr. Starnes. Who told you that, Miss Spargo, your informants? 

Miss Spakgo. That is correct, sir. 

ISIr. Starnes. Are you willing to give the committee the names of 
the informants in executive session? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ]VL\TTHEAvs. Are they employees of the Bituminous Coal Com- 
mission ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; they are employees of the Bituminous Coal 
Commission. 

Mr. Starnes. You know that of your own personal knowledge ? 

Miss Spargo. Oh, yes ; I talked to them. I will read you this report, 
leaving the names out. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Miss Spargo. I had information that these notices had been found 
on the desks. I went to an administrative officer of the Bituminous 
Coal Commission. "\Ylien I presented my credentials he said : "I am 
glad indeed, to see a Dies investigator here; this place is loaded from 
top to bottom with Communists; I have thought several times of 
going to see Mr. Starnes and tell him what the situation is, but this 
Comnumist influence is so heavy and comes from the very top I felt 
it would be unwise for me to be seen at Mr. Starnes' office, because I 
might lose my job." 

The official said that he knew about the distribution of the Peace 
Mobilization literature at the Bituminous Coal. In fact this came 
from him. 

Mr. Starnes. I want that made a part of the record, the call or 
throw-away you have there. 

(The document referred to was marked "Spargo Exhibit No. 2.") 

Miss Spargo. He said that an investigator from the Interior De- 
partment had spent very considerable time trying to learn who had 
distributed the literature. I had been informed that the night before 
the papers appeared on every desk, that they were in the desk of 
Harry Rand. 

Mr. Matthews. R-a-n-d? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; an attorney in the Bituminous Coal Divi- 
sion. I then questioned — after conferring with this official — I then 
questioned a girl employee. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you question her at the office of the Bitumi- 
nous Coal Commission? 

Miss Spargo. I did. I went into Mr. Rand's office. I went mto 
the Legal Division and I spoke to this girl in the hall privately. I 
took out the pink paper and handed it to her and I said: "Were 
these the papers — was this paper in Harry Rand's desk the night 
before they were found on every desk in your Division,'"' and she 



3438 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

replied, "Yes, those were the papers — they were the ones Mr. Kand 
had in his desk." 

I thereupon said : "We are very anxions to get at the bottom of 
this Communist influence in this Division. I wonder if you Avould be 
wdlHng to appear before an executive session of the Dies committee 
and tell what you know of these papers — we would not ask you to 
appear at a public hearing, we would ask you to speak only to the 
Congressmen on the committee T' She looked straight at me and 
she said : "But I know nothing about those papers," after being 
asked to testify. She said: "I didn't see them in Mr. Rand's desk; 
I know nothing about Mr. Rand ; there is nothing that I can tell the 
committee." 

Now, I may insert here that I have another witness who is em- 
ployed in the Bituminous Coal Division who had precisely the same 
experience before the Interior Department sent its investigator over 
there. This same girl had informed my witness that she had seen 
these in Mr. Rand's desk, but there hacl then been no investigation 
started. After the investigation started she came upstairs and denied 
flatly to this same witness that she had ever seen the papers. 

My witness will also say that everybody is terrified about testify- 
ing concerning these communistic activities in that Department. 
After she said, "There is nothing that I can tell the committee," I 
said, "Didn't you just tell me that those were the papers in Mr. 
Rand's desk?"' 

She said : "No ; I did not." 

I said : "Do you mean to say that you never at any time told a 
girl in your department that you had seen those papers in Mr. Rand's 
desk?'*' 

She said : "I could not have said that, because I never saw them — 
the papers — in his desk." 

I said: "I can't understand the conflict in your statements." 

She said : "There is no conflict in my statements, I didn't tell you 
or anybody else that I saw the papers," 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go back and discuss this matter with the 
official in tlie Bituminous Coal Commission, to whom you made refer- 
ence in your statement? 

Miss Spargo. I had previously discussed it and he had previously 
told me, "You will not pin her or anyone else down in this division — 
I would not appear myself." 

Mr. Matthews. Did he tell you why he would not appear ? 

Miss Spargo. I think I have covered that. He said: "The Com- 
munist influence is so lieavy and comes fi'om the very top I feel it 
would be unwise for me to be seen at Mr. Starnes' oflice." 

Mr. VoORHis. What did he mean by "the very top'' ? 

Miss Spargo. I didn't ask him, sir. I am merely giving as nearly 
as I can — I mean, immediatel}^ upon coming back I wrote out my 
notes. Now, what he meant by the "very top," I assumed he meant 
the very top of the Coal Division, but that I do not know. 

Mr. Starxes. That is an assumption merely on your part following 
his statement to you? 

Miss Spargo. That was merely liis statement to me. I didn't ask 
liim anything further. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8439 

Mr. Starnes. But he said he was fearful to come to talk to Meui- 
bers of Congress or u congressional conunittee even in executive 
session ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. I may say also that it was some 
time previous to that that I first began hearing these stories that 
these (iovernment people were terrified about testifying against the 
ComnuHiists in the Government. I had heard it repeatedly from 
many ditFerent people employed in the Government. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean you heard that in the course of your 
investigations? 

Miss Si'ARGo. In the course of my investigations I heard it many 
times. 

Mr. VooRHis. Where had you heard tliat? 

Miss Spargo. From various Government employees, Mr. Voorhis. 

Mr. Voorhis, I think it is most important — I mean if we are going 
to have testimony like this where we just kind of blanket in whole 
divisions, then it seems to me it is absolutely incumbent on the com- 
mittee thereafter to be very specific because otherwise you have im- 
plicated a whole organization and I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, 
if we cannot be specific about these matters I think that this type of 
testimony is extremely unfair. I have every desire to try to get rid 
of this influence wherever it exists, but it isn't any good to put out 
a public statement to the effect that this thing comes ''from the veiy 
top" or something like that, without saying who is who and who 
isn't who. 

ISIr. Starnes. You are willing, of course, and will gladly give to the 
conunittee in executive session the name of your informant? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starxes. And any departments involved ? 

Miss Spargo. Certainly, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. It isn't tlie informants I am worried about. 

^Ir. Starxes. And you will give to us the division in which this 
occurred — I mean in which these people were employed? 

jNIiss Spargo. Yes, sir. You understand, Mr. Voorhis, I am merely 
repeating a conversation. 

Mr. Voorhis. I understand. 

Miss Spargo. I am not personally bringing any charge. 

Mr. Voorhis. I understand perfectly well what you are doing. Miss 
Spargo. The thing that I am concerned about is that right at this 
moment the United States is in an extremely difficult and critical 
period, and it seems to me important that no committee and no agency 
anywhere should, without the greatest care and specification, make 
charges whicli are likely to lead to a lack of confidence on the part of 
the people in their Government. Xow, if we are going to say things 
like that, then we have got to pin them down, and we can't let it go 
that just all over the Government people said they Avere afraid of 
ph3'sical violence if they testified. 

Mr. Starxes. Let us get this specific witliout giving any names 
except in executive session in order to protect these people, but you 
can give us the names of the departments for the record specifically. 
If you talked to anyone in any particular department, you can give 
us that information. 



8440 UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Spargo. I talked to people in the Bituminous Coal Commis- 
sion and in the Civil Service Commission. I am afraid to give you 
any more than that, because my notes with, reference to it are not here. 

Mr. Starnes, Do you have the notes with vou — are thev available 
here? 

Miss Spargo. They are not here ; no, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. You will produce those for us ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Now, you say that you were told this at the Bitu- 
minous Coal Commission and also in the Civil Service Commission? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Were these responsible executives in administra- 
tive positions who told you ? 

Miss Spargo. Well, this one statement which I here introduced was 
a responsible executive. 

Mr. Matihews. In an administrative position? 

Miss Spargo. Certainly. Now, I may say also and again I would 
prefer to give you this in executive session, that I was very much 
shocked, and I did not believe that in this Government were people 
who were afraid to testify against the Communists when I first heard 
it. So I thought that the logical thing to do was to take it to investi- 
gators in Government departments whom I had run into in the course 
of my work. I did so, and I was told by them that their fear is justi- 
fied; that it has been known — "we know that people who have in- 
formed against the Communists have lost their jobs in the Govern- 
ment." 

Mr. Starnes. That came from an investigator in another govern- 
mental agency with whom you were working in cooperation? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct, and I will be glad to give you the 
name of the investigator who said that. 

Mr. VooRHis. ]\Ir. Chairman, it seems to me the orderly procedure 
in a matter of this kind is, where there are things which Miss Spargo 
or any of the rest of us feel should be taken up in executive session 
that the entire story should be taken up in executive session until 
such time as the committee is ready to make a release on it. We 
shouldn't have half of the story here which makes a kind of general 
accusation and then say we are going to have the other part of it, 
which becomes specific, in executive session. I think it ought to be 
all one way or the other. 

Mr. Starnes. Suppose you proceed with your testimony and be 
as specific as you can in the instances where you can be specific. Miss 
Spargo. You may proceed and we will take this other testimony in 
executive session. 

Miss Spargo. I know of nothing further to go into on that, Mr. 
Starnes. 

Mr. Starnes. I can see the justice, of course, in the position stated 
by Mr. Voorhis, that we should proceed with precaution; that there 
shouldn't be a blanket indictment and there is no blanket indictment. 
I want to say for the record, that neither this committee nor any 
other committee that I know of is making any charges. We are 
simply hearing testimony. We haven't even filed a charge. We 
are merely hearing testimony and as to what our verdict will be, 
only time and time alone can tell. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §441 

I want the record straight so there will be no quotation that the 
connnittee is charoino- anything. We are merely hearino- testimony 
under oath of a competent witness with reference to certain matters 
of public importance, that the public ought to know about if it is 
true and exists. I don't know of anythino- that is of more vital 
importance to the Nation in this critical hour than that we should 
know who in responsible positions, either administrative or executive, 
whose loyalty to the American democracy is in doubt. That is of 
prime importance and I don't know of anything that transcends it 
in importance — whether or not the people who are Avorking for this 
Government are loyal to America and its institutions. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to say it is my personal opinion that 
the overwhelming majority of such people are loyal. I think the 
job of the committee is to get very accurate information about things 
of that kind. I think it is more important for the people to get accu- 
rate information, that is the point I make. 

Mr. Starnes. I quite agree with the gentleman. 

Mr. jMatthews. Now, Miss Spargo, did you make an investigation 
of the activities of the American Peace Mobilization in the Wash- 
ington Navy Yard? 

]\riss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you make such an investigation ? 

Miss Spargo. I did, JDr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you have a report on that investigation ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Starnes. Just a minute, Dr. Matthews. The chair will make 
the following statement : 

At the beginning of the session this morning the chair called the 
names of Mr. Hersey and INIiss Koenigsberg for the express purpose 
of determining whether or not they were in the committee room in 
answer to subpenas directing them to be present today and to bring 
their records. 

It was not the thought of the committee to investigate or to receive 
evidence concerning these parties and the organizations or individuals 
whom they might represent, but merely to determine whether they 
had responded to the call of the subpenas and were present with their 
records. 

The committee is glad to state they are present and have brought 
the records called for, and have agreed to cooperate fully with us 
and the committee appreciates that fact. 

Whether or not these parties testify in the future depends, of 
course, upon the result of our conferences with those two witnesses 
who were subpenaed, and an examination of their records. If so, clue 
notice will be given them and if they want counsel, should a hearing 
be held, they are entitled to it. 

At the time they appeared this morning it seems that counsel from 
the national headquarters of the organization to which they belong 
was present in the room and attemjited to make a statement. He ap- 
parently was under a misapprehension because he had just arrived, 
so he states, in the city and knew nothing of the facts and was merely 
pleading for time to have an opportunity to examine the record. 

The Chair is glad to make this announcement and to say that so far 
as we are concerned the incident is closed and hope no unpleasant 



8442 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

inferences may be drawn from what occurred at the time. It was 
merely a misunderstanding on the part of this attorney as to why 
this hidy and this gentleman were called. 

The committee had no intention of examining tliem today nor 
examining into the records, but just merely to ascertain, as a matter 
of record, whether or not they had appeared and had brought their 
records with them; and with that the incident is closed. 

Now the Chair wishes to call the committee into executive session. 
There will be no further public hearings today. Our hearings will 
be resumed tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m., 
Thursday, May 22, 1941.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, MAY 22, 1941 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in the caucus room, House 
Office Building, Hon. Joe Starnes (chairman of the subcommittee) 
presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Starnes (chairman of the subcommittee), Voor- 
liis, and Mason. 

Also present: Mr. Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and Dr. 
J. B. Matthews, reseai'cli director. 

Mr. Starnes. The committee will resume its session. 

"Wlio is your first witness, Dr. Matthews ? 

Mr. Matthews, Miss Spargo. 

TESTIMONY OF MARY SPARGO— Eecalled 

Mr. Matthews. Miss Spargo, you met Julia Marcus in your 
investigation of the American Peace Mobilization, did you not? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Julia Marcus is one of the very active participants 
in the work of the American Peace Mobilization in Washington? 

Miss Spargo. She is. 

Mr, Maithews. Is she a Government employee? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; she is. She is employed in Employment Se- 
curity. 

Mr, Matthews, In the Employment Security? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, 

Mr. Matthews, Did Miss Marcus ever talk with you about the prog- 
ress of the American Peace Mobilization in the navy yard in AVash- 
ington? 

Miss Spargo, She did. She said they were making considerable 
progress in organizing in the navy yard, 

Mr, Matthews. Did you in your investigation find that one 
Charles T. Gift was active in the iVmerican Peace Mobilization in 
Washington? 

Miss Spahc;(). I did. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that the same Charles T, Gift that the com- 
mittee heard in executive session with reference to his activities 
in the American League for Peace and Democracy? 

8443 



8444 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews, That is correct, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Starnes. He is the same man who gave ns testimony with 
reference to Communist activities in the navy yard in an executive 
session? That is the same Charles T. Gift? 

Mr. Matthews That is correct. 

And the information which you obtained in your investigations is 
to the eifect that Charles T. Gift is still employed at the navy yard, 
is that correct? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Spargo, did you attend a meeting of the 
Washington delegation to the American People's Meeting which 
Avas held at the Roumanian Inn, or was that here in Washington? 

Miss Spargo. I think the meeting to which you are referring is 
a meeting of the Washington delegation in New York City on 
Sunday, April 6. 

Mr. Matthews. And was that held at the Roumanian Inn? 

Miss Spargo. No; the Roumaniaji Inn is here in Washington. 

Mr. Matthews. You did attend a meeting of the American Peace 
Mobilization in Washington at the Roumanian Inn, did you not? 

Miss Spargo. No, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. You did not ? 

Miss Spargo. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. The meeting which you attended of the Washing- 
ton delegation in New York was held where ? 

Miss Spargo. It was held in Mecca Temple. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Helen Miller 

Miss Spargo. The one — this particular one to which I have refer- 
ence was held in Mecca Temple. 

Mr. Matthews. Did Helen Miller participate in that meeting? 

Miss Spargo. She did. 

Mr. Matthews. Did she make a speech ? 

Miss Spargo. She did. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you tell us what Helen Miller had to say at 
that meeting of the Washington delegation ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. I am referring to Helen Schnatzler Miller, 
the wife of Hugh B. Miller, chairman of the grievance committee of 
Local 12, Labor Department U. F. W. A. Her husband has been 
active in the American Peace Mobilization and is secretary of the 
Washington Committee for Democratic Action. He is an attorney 
in the Bituminous Coal. 

Miss Miller at the Washington delegation in New York City, was 
speaking of the necessity of pay raises for Government employees. 
In the course of that speech she called this a Fascist Government. 
She said that America was "an imperialist nation which wanted to 
engage upon an imperialist war for world conquest." She said that 
in the meantime this Government underpaid, overworked, and poorly 
housed its workers. 

She also of course, scored the investigations of Government workers. 
I may say in regard to this term ' 'Fascist" it is in very general use 
among members of the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. They refer to America as a "Fascist State" ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMEiaCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8445 

'Mr. Starnes. AikI she particularly on this occasion scored this 
Government as beino; a ''Fascist Government"? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Bent upon engaging in an imperialist war for world 
conquest ? 

jNIi.ss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And criticized it for overworking, underpaying, and 
giving poor housing or affording poor housing for its own employees? 

Miss Spargo. She described the treatment by this Government of 
its workers as shameful. 

Mr. Starnes. She is a Government employee herself? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And you described her as such ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And have given us the agency with which she works ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. And did I understand you to say that this was a 
somewhat geneial indictment or a general charge that was being 
made by members of the American Peace Mobilization, to the effect 
that America was a "Fascist State" and about to "engage upon an 
impejialist war" ? 

Miss Spargo. ^Many of the members of the group particularly men- 
tioned the President and ]Mrs. Roosevelt and Mr. Dies as being the 
three chief Fascists in the United States. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you hear any of these Government employees 
making statements to that effect? 

Miss Spargo. I did. 

Mr. Starnes. You did? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Can you name those? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; some of them. I wonder if you want me to 
name just one or two. I mean when there are so many who said 
that. 

Mr. Starnes. I would rather you would give us a complete list — 
if you will furnish the committee with a complete list of those en- 
gaging in activities such as those or making statements such as those. 

Miss Spargo. It was such a widespread thing, Mr. Starnes. There 
was so much said. It would be difficult to give you a complete list. 
I mean it was so general. It was the general tenor of the conversa- 
tions. 

Mr. Starnes. If you will furnish us as complete a list as you are 
able to. 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. For the record. You may proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. In looking over issues of the Daily Worker and 
other Communist publications during your investigation, have you 
found that that is also the Communist Party line with respect to 
the United States Government? 

Miss Spargo. Yes : I have. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever at any time in talking with the 
people who are at work in the American Peace Mobilization, detect 



3446 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

any deviation from the Communist Party line on the part of those 
individuals ? 

Miss Spargo. I did not. 

Mr. Matthews. Would you say that the Communist Party line 
as you are acquainted with it, completely coincides with the line of 
the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Spargo. It does completely coincide with the line of the 
American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photograph, Miss Spargo, and ask you 
if you can identify Helen Miller, about whom you have spoken, as 
one of the persons in that photograph? [Handing photograph to 
the witness.] 

Miss Spargo. Reading from left to right is Nellie Schafer, Matilda 
Katz, and Helen Miller. 

Mr. Matthews. Helen Miller is at the right ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct, 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe what that is a picture of ? 

Miss Spargo. That is a picture of part of the Washington delega- 
tion leaving for the American Peace Mobilization at the Chicago 
Stadium on August 31. It is a picture of the three young ladies 
standing on the jilatform of the car — I mean on the rear of the train. 

Mr. IVIatthews. Mr. Chairman, I aak that that photograph be 
received as an exhibit. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The photograph was marked as "Spargo Exhibit No. 1, May 
22, 1941.") 

Mr. Matthews. Will you complete your account of Miss Miller's 
speech at the meeting of the Washington delegation? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. At the meeting of the Washington delega- 
tion 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever attend any meetings of the American 
Peace Mobilization where the subject of the Glenn Martin airplane 
plant was discussed ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give the committee an account of 
what was said at that meeting or those meetings? 

Miss Spargo. The subject of the 7,000 jobs for Negroes at Glenn L. 
Martin was discussed at every meeting which I attended. I believe. 

Mr. Matthews. That is the'Glenn Martin airplane plant at Balti- 
more, is it not? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct; and buttons like this were sold at some 
of the meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Buttons like this were sold at the meetings of the 
American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; that particular button was sold at a meeting 
of the AVashington Peace Mobilization at 1633 U Street NW.— 
Majestic Studio, April 18. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Will you please read what the button says? 

Miss Spargo (reading). "7,000 jobs for Negroes at Glenn L. Martin, 
National Negro Congress." 

Mr. Matthews. I ask that that be received as an exhibit, Mr. 
Chairman. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8447 

ISTr. Starnes. It is so ordei-ed. 

(The button referred to was marked "Spargo Exhibit No. 2, 
May 22, 1941.") 

Mr. Staijnes. This particular item was the subject matter of dis- 
cussion at a meetintr of the American Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Si'AKGo. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. The employment of 7,000 Negros in the Glenn Martin 
plant? 

Miss Sparoo. Yes, sir. 

ISIr. Starnes. And was it a subject matter of discussion before the 
Washiuiiton chai)ter here or the Washington group? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Starnes. Of the American Peace Mobilization? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; in fact it is — in fact the Washington Peace 
Mobilization group made posters for the rally that was to have been 
held or was held in Baltimore. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you describe what the discussion amounted to? 

Mr. Starnes. What is that ? 

Mr, Matthews. I am asking about the nature of the discussion 
about the employment of the 7,000 Negroes in the Glenn Martin plant. 

Mr. Starnes. Finish that and then I have some questions I want to 
ask about another item. 

Miss Spargo. Reading from a report of a meeting at the Majestic 
Studio at 1633 U Street NW., on April 16 

Mr. Matthews. Is this your own report? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Your own notes on what was said at that meeting? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct, Mrs. Dorothy Strange urged attend- 
ance at the rally in Baltimore on April 27 to get jobs for 7,000 Negroes 
at the Glenn L, Martin plant. She and others sold these buttons. 
Jack Zucker, vice pi^esident of the Washington American Peace Mobil- 
ization and a representative of the Shoe Workers' Union, added to her 
report which concerned the necessity of these 7,000 jobs. He urged 
that every A. P. M. member support this drive on Glenn L. Martin 
and said: 

You must rpalize that it is not only a question of getting justice for Negro 
brothers, but if we achieve this victory and actually get jobs for 7,000 Negroes 
down there we have got 7,000 new members of our union. Think what that 
will mean to us, 

Henry Thomas, a Negro leader of the southwest branch of the Com- 
munist Party — that is how lie is listed in the police records — reporting 
on the view of the Negro — Mr. Thomas was asked what success he had 
had in encouraging the Negroes to apply for those jobs, and he said : 
"Well, in view,-' he said, "Negroes in general are too lukewarm to our 
peace movement." He said : "They hope that the war will bring them 
jobs that they have not been able to get before." 

He also said that the trouble was, the difficulty was in organizing 
among the Negroes that they couldn't understand why the American 
Peace Mobilization should be interested in getting them itito Glenn L, 
Martin to manufacture war goods. 

He said that many Negroes suggested that a peace movement 
shoud take just the opposite stand. He said that many Negroes 

62626 — 41 — vol. 14 19 



8448 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

with whom he had talked said that in their view if this was a peacft 
movement they should be urging people to take no part whatever iu 
any defense industry. 

This comment met with a general laugh. You understand that 
Mr. Thomas was reporting on the attitude of Negroes whom he 
had tried to organize — that was not his point of view. 

Mr. Starnes. Their simple logic was they couldn't understand 
why a peace movement, if it was a peace movement, was interested 
in obtaining jobs for Negroes in a war industry? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. They couldn't follow that logic? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. You say that was met with general laughter? 

Miss Spargo. That cominent was met with very general laughter. 
One man whom I would recognize but whose name I do not have, 
said: "Well, certainly, in some cases it could be explained to the 
Negroes or to certain of our brothers, what they could do if they 
could get a job in a defense industry." 

Mr. Starnes. The implication being, of course, they would be in 
a position to sabotage the defense program? 

Miss Spargo. I so took it. 

Mr. VooRHis. May I ask a couple of questions, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. Did you get the impression that the Peace Mobili- 
zation organization was interested in getting jobs for Negi'oes as such 
and because they were Negroes, or was it just because they were Ne- 
groes that they wanted to see them get good jobs and be able to make 
a living? Was that why they were interested in it? 

Miss Spargo. No. Of course it is a very complicated picture. 

Mr. VooRHis. I don't think it is complicated at all. Let me ask 
you another question : Weren't they interested in getting a particular 
group of persons who were sympathetic to their point of view, who 
might be willing to cooperate with the Comnumist leadership of this 
organization no matter who they were, but that they believed that 
by raising this issue it might be possible for Mr. Thomas and otheis 
to see that the particulaiiy right ones would get in? Isn't that 
actually the case? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; that is correct. And also they made it very 
plain they didn't want them all to go at once. They had a plan 
that every day from 30 to 100 Negroes would apply at Glenn L. 
Martin. That was discussed on several occasions. They planned 
to send out press releases each day when they said those applicants 
would be turned down. They said when the applicants would be 
turned down: "We will send to every newspaper a statement that 
'today 30 Negroes were refused jobs at this Jim Crow plant,' " but 
they said : "We must see to it that those Negroes who apply are 
Negroes with whom we have come in contact." 

Iix other words, they did not Avant just any Negro — they wanted 
Negroes who had been influenced to their point of view. 

Mr. VooRHis. It seems to me that is important. 

Mr. Starnes. I think that is highly important and very sig- 
nificant. 

Mr. VooRHis. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make this obser- 
vation with regard to tliese hearings: Speaking for myself and 



UN-AMERICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES g449 

I believe the committee would agree, I know that there are a great 
many i)e()i)le in the I'nited States that sincerely are working for 
peace; that what these hearings have to do is to show the degree 
to which one organization that is controlled by a foreign govern- 
ment is att^mipting to utilize this sincere desire to serv'e its own 
ends, and to show that although an organization may be called a 
"peace organization*' that in fact it may not be that at all; that 
ihese liearings are not intended in any slightest degree to cast any 
discredit on any sincere peace movement in the United States which 
is an expression of sincere conviction on the part of the American 
people with regard to our foreign policy. 

That isn't a matter, of course, that the committee would, obviously, 
go into. 

Mr. Starnes. Yon may resume your questioning. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Spargo, following up the statement 
by Mr. Voorhis, was it not also your distinct impression that the 
American Peace Mobilization was out to exploit the question of 
racial justice) for ends which did not have particularly to do with 
the bettering of conditions of Negro people? 

Miss Spargo. That is absolutely correct. I felt very strongly that 
they really didn't care one particle what actually haj^pened to the 
Negroes as a Avhole, or to any individual Negro, provided he could 
serve the ends of Soviet Russia. 

Mv. Starnes. In all of the meetings that you attended of the Amer- 
ican Peace Mobilization, either here or elsewhere, when you con- 
sidered the program or the agenda which was under discussion and 
the general tenor and tj'pe of meetings, did it give you an impres- 
sion that here was a group of people genuinely interested in peace 
who were disciples of peace, or did you obtain an impression that 
hei-e was a group who were following the political line which is 
being forced on this country by a foreign government? 

Miss Spargo. I certainly was convinced that they were following 
the political line of a foreign government. They talked about strikes 
continuously. Strikers came to the rally in New York who were 
right off the picket lines, and people were wearing these buttons. 
Ford buttons and Chief Steward, United Automobile Workers, and 
the International Harvester strikers. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you see anyone there who purported to be from 
the Allis-Chalmers plant? 

Miss Spargo. Oh, yes; Allis-Chalmers plant, and they contributed 
money to this American Peace Mobilization, all of them, and they 
were wildh' cheered when they did so. 

Mr. Starnes. Was the question of strikes in national-defense in- 
dustries constantly under discussion and consideration at these vari- 
ous meetings? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; they were. 

Mr. Starnes. What was the purport of the discussions? Was it 
to support strikes of that type and nature in order to hinder and ham- 
string the United States of America? 

Miss Spargo. That is it. 

Mr. Starne.s. In its effort to speed up its security program and 
provide a defense for this country? 



3450 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. They said they were out to get 
General Motors and talked about Big Steel and Little Steel — I mean 
the whole tenor of the thing was definitely fomenting strikes in order 
to hamper tlie national defense. 

Mr. Starnes. Isn't that a part of the Communist Party line in 
this country, to impede the efforts of the United States to defend 
itself if it is about to engage in an "imperialist war"? 
Miss Spargo. Tliat is so. 

Mr. Starnes. I think, of course, the members of the committee 
have laiowledge of the fact that the one-time leader of the Com- 
munist Party, who has been offered for the Presidency on more than 
one occasion, stated before this committee, if I remember correctly, 
in 1939, that that was a part of their program and it would be carried 
forward to such an extent that they would not only promote strikes 
in national-defense industries and strife, but they would attempt to 
bring about civil war in this country if necessary. 

Mr, Matthews. Mr. Browder said he would attempt to precipitate 
civil war. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. Dr. Matthews, you may proceed. 

Mr. Matthews. Does that conclude your statement of the account 
of the discussion of the Glenn Martin plant and the question of the 
employment of Negroes at that plant? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; I think I did say that the members worked on 
posters and all that sort of thing. I mean there was a very great 
deal of work done by the A. P. M. in connection with the Glenn L. 
Martin rally, 

Mr. Starnes, I would like to get a matter straight in my mind. 
Dr. Matthews, about some previous testimony given by the witness. 

This Helen Miller you spoke of a moment ago, you stated was the 
wife of Hugh Miller? 

Miss Spargo. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And Hugh Miller is an attorney for this Washington 
Committee on Democratic Action — is that the name of the commit- 
tee? 

Miss Spargo. I have him listed as a secretary, but I may be in 
error on that. 

Mr. Mason. He is counsel for the Bituminous Coal Division. 

Mr. Starnes. You stated she is a Government employee? 

Miss Spargo. That is so. She was representing her local as a 
delegate. 

Mr. Starnes, Where is she employed? 

Miss Spargo, I believe in the Labor Department. 

Mr. Starnes. Where was this speech made that she made that you 
refer to? 

Miss Spargo. At the American People's Meeting in New York 
City. 

Mr, Starnes. Do you recall whether or not in her own speech she 
referred to these "three leading Fascists in this Government"? 

Miss Spargo. I don't recall that. 

Mr. Starnes. But others present who spoke did refer to the Pres- 
ident, his wife, and Mr. Dies as "being three of the leading Fascists 
in the country"? 

Miss Spargo, Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8451 

Mr. Starnes. But Helen Miller repeatedly made the statement 
that 

Miss Spakgo. "Tliis is a Fascist Government" — that "America is a 
Fascist Government." 

Mr. Starnes. And it was about to engage in an imperialist war 
for world conquests 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you obtain the general impression at these meet- 
ings, or were you instructed yourself, as a member of this organization, 
that you should constantly exploit the racial question? 

Miss Spargo. That is so. 

Mr. Starnes. Was that among the instructions that you received, 
that you should in every manner possible exploit racial discrimination 
and racial justice and hatred? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. All right, Dr. Matthews, 

Mr. Matthews. Did you, in your investigation, encounter a man 
luimed Greenberg? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. What is Greenberg's full name ? 

Miss Spargo. Robert N. Greenberg. 

Mr. Matthews. G-r-e-e-n-b-e-r-g ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Do jou know whether or not Robert N. Greenberg is 
a Government employee? 

Miss Spargo. Yes ; he is. He works, I believe it is, with the Labor 
Department. I don't happen to have that particular list here, Dr. 
Matthews, but I am quite sure that that is the fact. In any event, he is 
a Government employee. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you find that Greenberg had any police record 
in the District of Columbia ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. He was arrested June 9, 1938, for distributing 
literature at the navy yard without a permit. 

Mr. Matthews. Was anyone else arrested with him ? 

Miss Spargo. Matilda Katz, one of those in that picture. 

Mr. Matthews. Arrested with him on that occasion? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. ]VIatthews. Which one is Matilda Katz ? 

Miss Spargo. She is in the middle. 

Mr. Matthews. The person in the middle of this exhibit 1? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. She was another member of the American Peace 
Mobilization. She was arrested with Mr. Greenberg on the same 
occa^sion. 

Mr. Matthews. And are they both active in the American Peace 
Mobilization ? 

Miss Spargo. Tliey are. 

Mr. Matthews. They were arrested by the Washington Police De- 
partment? 

Miss Spargo. According to the records; yes. 

Mr. Matthews. For illegal distribution of literature at the navy- 
yard gates? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Spargo, was there any discussion at 
these meetings or elsewhere amon": the members of the American 



8452 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Peace Mobilization about what the American Peace Mobilization 
should attempt to do among draftees ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give the committee a full account 
of the discussion that took place about what the xlmerican Peace 
Mobilization should do with reference to draftees? 

Miss Spargo. In the firet place there was at their headquarters a 
good-sized bookcase full of literature. It concerned the Washington 
Committee for Democratic Action, it concerned the Aid to China, 
it concerned Spanish Loyalists and all that sort of literature. There 
was a separate section of that same bookcase set aside for literature 
on the draft. 

Here in one piece issued by the Washington Youth Council, 907 
Fifteenth Street, NW. 

Mr. Starnes. Washington Youth Council? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. That was on the shelf. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the general tenor of that? It deals with 
the draft, does it ? I will read it : 

Young people of Washington, democracy works, save it by using it. Take 
your pick. Tlie numbers are up. Has yours been called? Your brothers, your 
friends, your sons, your boy friends, your liusbands. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please read this line which is the slogan ? 

Miss Spargo. "Democracy or conscription." 

Mr. Starnes. "Democracy or conscription?" 

Miss Spargo. That is so. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the general tenor of that literature? Is it 
an attack upon the draft? Is that the general tenor of this liter- 
ature, Dr. Matthews ? 

Mr. Matthews. The literature as I have read it — the witness may 
speak for herself, does not come out overtly and attack the draft 
act but calls for very wide and drastic amendments to the act. 

Will you have this in evidence, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

(The pamphlet referred to was marked as "Spargo Exhibit No. 
3, May 22, 1941.") 

Mr. Matthews. May I ask you if the Washington Youth Council 
is an affiliate of the American Youth Congress ? 

Miss Spargo. That is so. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you wish to modify in any way the statement 
which I made about the attitude of this literature toward the draft? 

Miss Spargo. No ; you stated it correctly. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify this piece of literature? 

Miss Spargo. This is a piece of literature published by — which was 
also on the slielf, published in the Washington American Peace 
Mobilization headquarters, published by the National Federation for 
Constitutional Liberties. 

Mr. Matthews. And what is the title of this piece of literature? 

Miss Spargo. The Draft Act and Your Rights, Your Right to 
Criticize, Advocate Change or Repeal. 

Mr. Matthews. And that is the tenor of the discussion throughout 
this piece of literature, is it? 

Miss Spargo. That is the tenor of the discussion; yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you receive this in evidence as an exliibit? 



UN- A Mi: I tic AN I'liOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8453 

Ml". Stahnes. It is so onloi'od. 

(The paper referred to was marked "Spargo Exhibit No. 4, May 
22, 1941.") 

Miss ISrAR«o. Ami tliis piece of literature is a piece of literature put 
out by the Auiericau Peace Mobilization, 1116 Veruiont Avenue. NW., 
Reconunendat ions for Mai^iiiii- the Bul•ke-^^'a(ls\vortll Act and its Ad- 
ministration as Truly Democratic as Possible. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you receive this in evidence, Mr. Chairman? 

^Ir. Starxes. It is so ordered. 

(The document referred to was marked "Spargo Exhibit No. 5, 
May 22, 1941.") 

Mr. Starxes. AVas all of this literature that you have here on dis- 
play, beino- distributed there at this meetin«»- in New York City? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. This was certaiidy distributed, this National 
Federation for Constitutional Liberties and much of the other ma- 
terial of the same kind. I do not recall this American Peace Mobiliza- 
tion 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not literature of that type 
or character could be obtained from the Washington Bookshop? 

Miss SPARGt). Yes. sir. 

^Ir. Starxes. It could ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. MArrHEws. Now did you find in their discussions at meetings 
and elsewhere that tliey made much more explicit their purposes with 
reference to draftees than they did in this printed literature? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. jM atphews. Now will you please outline what it is they had to 
say in their conversaticms or speeches about work among draftees? 

Miss Spargo. For part of the slant I go back to the part of the 
speech of Annette Eul)instein at the American People's Meeting in 
New York City. To the best of my recollection she said that since a 
draft of labor is not only ])ossible but probable, that women would 
have to take a more militant point of view in the trade-union work; 
that women were going to have to be more militant and it was re- 
peatedly said by other s})eakers 

Ml'. MATfHEws. Who Mas that speaker? 

Miss Spar(;(». Annette Kiibiustein. You recall we have consider- 
able material on that. Dr. Matthews? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. 

Miss SpAKGo. ''Em])loyers'' — I am quoting her from this six-page 
mimeogia[)hed folder: 

Statistics on local draft boards already show that they are composed over- 
whelniinjrly of business ;ind professional men and that the representation of 
labor tlicreon is almost negligible. 

Since there are no group deferments and only individuals can be deferred, 
a draft of labor is possilile and probable. Employers hostile to labor miions 
will certify that imnunion oiiiployes are necessary and union members not 
necessary. 

Local draft boards without labor representation may with impunity co- 
oi^erate in such discriminatory practices unless the act is amended to safeguard 
labor's rights. 

Then another slant, of course, which is taken is the reiteration of 

elimination of Jim Crowism from the Arm}, which also follows 

Mr. Starn'^es. In other words, they were advocating the Draft 



8454 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Act be so amended that some representatives of organized labor 
would have to serve on all local draft boards — is that the general 
tenor of their discussion? 

Miss Spargo. I would say so; yes, sir. Those are exact quotes 
I was reading you. 

Mr. Starnes. You may go ahead now with your Jim Crowism state- 
ment. 

Miss Spargo. On the Negro shelf is a four-page mimeographed 
sheet under the heading : "Did the Last World War Bring Democracy 
to the Negro People? Let Us Look at a Few of the Facts"; and 
it refers to a special, secret order sent out by the high command of 
the American Expeditionary Forces in France, stating that Negro 
soldiers were not to be given any treatment that might be interpreted 
as social equality. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you attend meetings where the matter of 
draftees was discussed? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you remember any of the conversations that 
took place at those meetings ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. AVill you please outline what they were? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. And who made the remarks. 

Miss Spargo. On the bulletin boards at the headquarters are posted 
all articles which might possibly tend in any way to criticize the 
draft, with particular things underlined. 

There was one article, for example, said that letters from home 
complaining of home conditions made boys homesick. That was 
underscored, and it said : "It undermines their morale." That was 
heavily underscored. Then at a meeting of the northwest peace group 
on April 22, at the home of Bob Austin and Lou Bibberman, 2023 
O Street Northwest 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please spell that name ? 

Miss Spargo. Bob A-u-s-t-i-n and Lou B-i-b-b-e-r-m-a-n. 

The chairman said : 

We have a big job cut out for us. The A. P. M. has asked each branch to set 
up its own draft committee. We find that very few people know the draft 
regulations and we must study them to find out just what exemptions are 
allowed. 

iMany conscripts are being drafted who could be deferred if they knew the 
law. It is up to us to help them. We must figlit any extension of that year 
of service and see to it that the Government keeps its pi'omise to let the boys 
out at the end of a year. 

Then again right here in Washington we are surrounded by camps. It is up 
to us, it is up to each one of you as an individual, to meet the boys when they 
come in for weekends, and we must give them a good time. We must let them 
see that the A. P. M. is working for true American democracy. We must let 
them see that we have something to offer in the way of protection of their rights 
to work and live free lives away from the Fascist domination of this Government. 

Attention was called to the fact that the Government was discour- 
aging — the charge was made that the Government was discouraging 
letters from home to the boys because letters undermine their morale. 

The chairman said : 

That brings up another point. It is up to us to see that the boys get plenty 
of those homesick letters. We must fight the Fascists on all fronts. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8455 

Mr. Starxes. In other words, it would be a part of the program of 
the American Peace Mobilization to undermine the morale of the 
soldiei's of the United States Army? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starxes. And that was to be accomjilished by having homesick 
letters written to them and b}^ other devious methods? 

Miss SrARGO. That is correct. 

Mr. jSIattitews. In your investigation you found out about this 
meeting at the Roumanian Inn? 

Miss Si'ARGO. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you describe what took place there ? 

Miss Spargo. On April 26 

Mr. Starxes. This is a meeting on April 26 at tho Roumanian Inn? 

Miss Spargo. Yes ; of the Washington Peace Mobilization. 

Mr, Starxes. All right — this year ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. Susan B. Anthony declared at this meeting : 

We must go I'ight into the camps and see what is going on ; we must be sure 
we do get iuto tlie camps. 

Miss Anthony read a letter purported to be from a soldier at Camp 
Dix stating that in a recent forest fire five boys had been killed, but 
she said : 

The kept capitalistic press has suppressed that news at the request of this 
capitalistic Government. 

She said that her informant had told her that the food at Camp 
Dix was veiy poor indeed. I believe that the informant also said 
that on certain days the draftees had nothing to eat but bologna 
sandwiches. 

Mr. Matthews. Was there anything else that took place at the 
Roumanian Inn? 

Miss Spargo. Yes; Mrs. Montgomery 

Mr. Starxes. '\Mio is this Susan B. Anthony you are referring to? 

Miss Spargo. She is a young Government employee. 

Mr. Starxes. A young Government employee ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starxes. That is not the gi'eat suffragist leader that you are 
referring to ? 

Miss Spargo. No; I believe she is a descendent. I haven't fully 
checked on that. 

Mr. Starxes. I just want to make it clear that you are not testify- 
ing with regard to her. 

Now the letters you referred to awhile ago, Miss Spargo, about 
homesickness, those letters were a type of letters that they wanted 
written to the boys which would tend to develop homesickness on the 
part of the young fellows ? 

Miss Spargo. That is right. 

Mr. Starxes. ^Make them discontented with camp life and so forth ? 

Miss Spargo. That is right. 

Mr. Starxes. Now do you know what Government agency tins 
Susan B. Anthony, this young Susan B. Anthony works in? 

Miss Spargo. I don't know unless Dr. Matthews has it. 

Mr. Matthews. The record in our file shows she is with the Na- 
tional Youth Administration. 



8456 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Do you have some more material on this question of the draft ? 

Miss Spakgo. Yes. In New York at the Youth Workshop there 
was a play presented which was as powerful a piece of antiwar 
propaganda as I think I have ever seen. It was Johnny Got His 
Gun. It shows a soldier of the last World AVar ending up as a blind, 
deaf, immobile hunk of flesh. All these people at the Youth Work- 
shop, it was freely admitted, were Comnumists. 

Mr. Matthews. The play Johnny Got His Gun was written by 
Dalton Trumbo ^ 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that the story that was run serially in the 
Daily Worker? 

Miss Spargo. That is it. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have any discussions at that Youth Work- 
shop in New York about this play with any of the people who were 
there ? 

Mi_ss Spargo. Yes ; we discussed it at great length as a very effective 
piece of antiwar propaganda — very effective. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you go to that Youth Workshop in company 
among others, with Ted Ozmun? 

Miss Spargo. That is so. 

Mr. Matthews. And was it at that Youth Workshop that Ted 
Ozmun told you about how close the Communist Party was to the 
American Peace Mobilization — how completely it controlled it? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. It was there and in other subsequent conver- 
sations. 

Mr. Starnes. What is the difference, if any, between the Ameri- 
can People's Meeting and this Youth Workshop ? Is there any tie-up 
or connection or correlation or cooperation between the two groups? 

Miss Spargo. The Youth Workshop gave a party for the delegates 
to the American People's Meeting — for some of them. 

Mr. Starnes. Was there any expression of sympathy with the 
aims of the American Peace Mobilization or did there seem to be an 
identity of program? 

Miss Spargo. There was a complete identity of program. 

Mr. Starnes. Complete identity of program ? 

Miss Spargo. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. And concerted action ? 

Miss Spargo. That is it. 

Mr, Starnes. All right. 

Miss Spargo. I would also like to refer to the attitude toward men 
ill uniform, which was displayed (m all sorts of occasions. 

At fii'st at the American People's IVfeeting when there was a con- 
script, or a man in uniform, a soldier, who was attending the meet- 
ing — there were several soldiers in attendance at that American 
People's Meeting, and the delegates sitting around had a tendencv 
to whisper about "here is a man in uniform" and someone else would 
make the reply — some other member would say: "We have got a 
conscript army now. Don't you realize that these are conscripts — 
these aren't professional soldiers — these aren't slaves of the capital- 
ists. These men don't necessarily want to be in the Army. You 
must make friends with the soldiers and not make fun of them"; 
and I repeatedly observed that program put into action. That i<? 



UN-A3IKRICAN PROl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES §457 

they AV(Mil(l o-o up to a man in uniform and approach him in a 
friendly manner. 

Mr. Starnes. We Avill take a short recess at this time. 

("Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. Starxes. You may proceed. Dr. ^lattheAvs. 

INIr. jMatihews. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call Miss Huffman 
again. 

Mr. Starnes. Very well. 

TESTIMONY OF HAZEL HUFFMAN— Recalled 

Mr. Matthews. ISIiss Huffman, I show you a copy of a telegi-am 
and ask you if you have seen a copy of that? 

(Handing telegram to the w^itness.) 

Miss Huffman. Yes, Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe the telegram and read it? 

Ilkliss Huffman. The telegram is from Marian Briggs of the Ameri- 
can Peace Mobilization. It is a day letter and sent to a series of 
addresses. The telegi-am reads as follows : 

Peace vigil at Wliite House approaching 340th hour. Still going strong. 
Urgently need money to keep line going. Vigil costs $100 per day. Please air 
mail special any funds you can. 

The telegram is addressed to eight people: George Marshall, 38 
East Fifty-seventh Street, New York City; Mrs. Guggenheimer, An- 
sonia Hotel, New York City — that is Mrs. J. C. Guggenheimer be- 
cause of the address; Anna Rochester, 85 Bedford Street, New York 
City; Mrs. Ellen Brandstetter, 637 Arlington Place, Chicago, 111.; 
Harvey O'Connor, Hull House. Chicago, 111.; Alfred K. Stern, 30 
Rockefeller Plaza. New York City; Lionel Stander, care of Native 
Son. St. James Theater, West Forty-fourth Street, New York City, 
and Herbert Biberman, 603 Delta Building, 426 South Spring Street, 
Los Angeles, Calif. 

Mr. Starnes. Is that a copy of a telegram or the original telegram 
that was obtained from the Postal Telegraph Co. by proper subpena 
from this committee, and is this the information which was furnished 
the committee in response to the subpena, by the Postal Tele- 
graph Co. ? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

Miss Huffman. The markings would so indicate. 

Mr. Starnes. That will be a part of the record. 

(The telegram referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit No. 1, 
May 22, 1941.") 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Miss Huffman, have you investigated the 
records of the iiidividuals to whom that telegram was sent, with 
respect to their affiliations with front organizations of the Commu- 
nist Party? 

Miss Huffman. I have. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, these cards indicate the original 
material which is in the files of the committee, showing the connec- 
tions of the individuals to whom this telegram was addressed, and I 
suggest that instead of taking the hours that would be necessary to 
go over all of this material, that the tabulation be made at this point 
a j)art of the record, or do 3'ou have some other procedure in mind? 



3458 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. Will that show the record of organizations, some of 
which undoubtedly are Communist-front organizations and so found 
by this committee, to which these people belong? That is the im- 
portant part of it. 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct, Mr, Chairman. 

Mr. StarneiS. You might read the record of one or two of the 
parties so the committee will have an idea of the general tenor of the 
organizations they belong to and their connections, and the others 
can then be inserted in the record along with the names of the people 
to whom the telegrams were sent. 

Mr. Matthews. George Marshall was a member of the executive 
board of the American League for Peace and Democracy. He is a 
member of the executive committee of the National Federation for 
Constitutional Liberties, whose literature has just been introduced 
into evidence. He is a member of the National Council of the 
American Peace Mobilization. He was a sponsor of a meeting of 
the Friends of the Soviet Union at Mecca Temple on March 22, 
3938. He is a sponsor of the Conference on Pan-American De- 
mocracy. He is a writer for the magazine Soviet Russia Today, 
the magazine of the Friends of the Soviet Union. He is on the 
editorial council of the magazine Soviet Russia Today. He is a 
member of the National Committee for People's Rights; a sponsor 
of the North American Committee to Aid Spanish Democracy; a 
signer of an open letter in the New Masses — in the Soviet Russia 
Today magazine, calling for closer cooperation between the United 
States and the Soviet LTnion. 

He is the signer of a letter in Soviet Russia Today, defending the 
Moscow purge trials. He is a member of the executive committee 
of the Progressive Committee to Rebuild the American Labor Party, 
the organization of which Morris Watson is head, as was testified 
by one of the witnesses yesterday. 

He is a sponsor of the United American Spanish Aid Committee; 
a member of the American Committee for Democracy and Intel- 
lectual Freedom; the signer of a telegram to the President of the 
United States on March 5, 1941, defending the Communist Party. 

Mr. Starnes. Now, he is one of the great peace advocates who are 
responsible for the program of the American Peace Mobilization, and 
this is an appeal to him for funds to maintain the vigil around 
the Wliite House now being kept by the American Peace Mobiliza- 
tion; is that right? 

Miss Huffman. No ; Congressman Starnes. That is correct in es- 
sence but at any of the meetings that I have attended that Morris 
Watkins has spoken at, I have not heard Morris Watson advocate 
peace. 

Mr. Starnes. I am not talking about Morris Watson, I am talking 
about George Marshall. 

Miss Huffman. Oh, yes; that is correct. 

Mr. Matfhews. Here is Anna Rochester, another of the persons 
to whom the telegi'am was addressed. She is a contributing editor 
of the New Masses; a frequent writer for the New Masses. 

She is a member of the League of American Writers and a sponsor 
of the Mother Bloor Banquet; publisher of numerous volumes pub- 
lished by the International Publishers. She is author of numerous 
pamphlets published by the Workers' Library, both of which pub- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8459 

lisliing concerns have been identified as Communist Party auxiliaries. 

She is a Avriter for the Communist International; a member of 
the Comnumist Party and so designated in the Daily Worker of 
May 17, 1940. 

She is a writer for the Daily Worker, a writer for the official 
publication of the Communist Party, the monthly magazine, The 
Comnumist; a signer of the statement defending the purge trials in 
Moscow. 

She is a member of the League of American Writers and a mem- 
ber of the campaign committee for election of Browder and Ford. 

Mr. St.vrnes, Now, I renew my question: This lady and George 
Marshall are two of the parties to whom the peace vigil maintained 
around the White House, at the present time so-called by the Ameri- 
can Peace Mobilization, addressed a telegram appealing for funds 
to maintain the vigil? 

Miss Huffman. Yes; Congressman Starnes. 

Mr. Matthews. Those are two of the eight. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have other telegrams witli reference to an 
appeal for aid for funds or other support, Dr. Matthews, for the 
peace vigil? 

Mr. Matthews. On the same date Marian Briggs sent the follow- 
ing telegram to Herman Shumlin at 229 West Forty-second Street, 
New York. The telegram reads: 

Peace vigQ still going, approaching three hundred and sixty-eighth hour, 
still going strong. Urgent need for money to keep vigil going. Costs $100 a 
day. Please send air-mail special any funds available, care A. P. M. 

And that telegram is signed, "Marian Briggs." 

Mr. Starnes. Who is Herman Shumlin? 

Mr, ^Matthews. Will you please give a resume of what you know 
about Herman Shumlin? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. I have known Herman Shumlin per- 
.sonally since late in 1929. Herman Shumlin was the Broadwa}' pro- 
ducer of the play Grand Hotel. That was his outstanding success — 
one of his first outstanding successes, and then a series of Broadway 
productions. He has been the producer of a major number of the 
plays put out by Lillian Hellman. 

Herman Shumlin is an endorser of the drive to bring veterans 
back to America — the Friends of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade vet- 
erans. He is chairman of the United American Spanish Aid Com- 
mittee; a sponsor of the send-off dinner for the ambulance corps of 
the American Artists and Writers Committee; their division was 
the Medical Bureau, American Friends of the Spanish Democracy 
(jf I he American Artists and Writers Committee. 

Herman Shumlin is a signer of an open letter for closer coo})er.i- 
tion with the Soviet Union which appeared in Soviet Russia Today 
in September 1939. 

He is a membei- of the theater arts committee, medical bureau of 
the North American Committee to Aid Spanish Democracy; and in- 
cidentally was particularly active Avith the theater arts connnittee. 

He was a signer of the statement to the President defending the 
Communist Party. It appeared in the Dailv Worker of March 5, 
1941. 

He is a signer of an appeal on behalf of Communist Darcy for the 
National Federation of Constitutional Liberties. 



8460 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. That is Sam Darcy, of California ? 
Miss Huffman. Yes. Executive committee member of the China 
Aid Council. His name appears in a pamphlet Relighting the 
Lamps of China; chairman of the North American Spanish Aid 
Committee. 

He is a sponsor for the conference on constitutional liberties in 
America; a member of the executive committee of the Progressive 
Committee to Rebuild the American Labor Party. 

He is a member of the executive board of the theater arts committee ; 
a member of the executive board of the American League for Peace 
and Democracy, of the national office ; a signer of the petition to dis- 
continue the Dies committee, American Committee for Democracy and 
Intellectual Freedom. 

He is a sponsor of the refugee scholarship and peace campaign. 
That is not a complete list. 

Mr. Starnes. I would like to ask you this question, and it is ad- 
dressed to either Miss Huffman or Dr. Matthews : 

In checking the case records of the parties to whom this telegram 
appealing for funds was directed, did you find that each and every 
one of those parties are known members of the Communist Party or 
have been affiliated at some time or another with, Communist organi- 
zations ? 

Mr. Matthews. There is only one exception, Congressman Starnes, 
to an affirmative answer to your question, and that exception is Mrs. 
Ellen Brandstetter, of Chicago, about whom — at least the committee 
at this time does not have information wliich would indicate that she 
has been a fellow traveler. 

Mr. Starnes. But we do have documentary evidence implemented 
by sworn testimony before this committee to the effect that each and 
every one of the others have been members of the Communist Party 
or have been members of Communist-front oi-ganizations? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, Congressman Starnes ; each one of these cards 
refers to an original document in the files of the committee. 

Mr. Starnes. And with that sole exception, the appeal for funds 
to maintain the peace vigil around the White House was addressed to 
these Communists or to Communist-front members? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. Congressman Starnes. 

Mr. Starnes. Now that was addressed on l)ehalf of the American 
Peace Mobilization, of course? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; at this point may I have a photograph in- 
troduced into the record? It is one of the many photographs in the 
possession of the committee of the peace vigil in front of the White 
House. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photograph of the peace vigil in 
front of the white House. Miss Huffman, and ask you if you can 
identify a gentleman in the middle of the front line of marchers? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; the gentleman in the middle is Morris 
Watson, and on his right is Sarah V. Montgomery and on his left is 
Joseph Cadden, of the American Youth Congress. 

Mr. Starnes. It will be received in evidence. 

(The photograph referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibit No. 
2, May 22, 1941.") 



UN-AMKKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8461' 

Mr. Matthkws. Mr. Chairman, IVIiss Huffman has testimony that 
has to do with the same question about which Miss Spargo has testi- 
fied; namely, the work of the American Peace Mobilization among 
the draftees or with respect to the draftees. 

JNIr. Starnes. The chair is of the opinion that testimony of that 
type and nature is of such vital importance to the welfai-e of the 
country at the present time, uidess there is objection from the other 
members of the committee, we should hear what Miss Huffman has 
to say about that matter. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you proceed with your statement, Miss Huff- 
man ? 

]VIiss Huffman. As a result of an investigation I found that the 
aims of these groups can be divided into four particular parts. One 
of them is to recruit converts to left-wing programs in radical organi- 
zations; second, to engender hatred or at least definite distrust of 
the United States and its officials, both military and nonmilitary; 
third, to instill fear; and, fourth, to cause unrest and chaos. 

I found in checking that all of the front organizations of the Amer- 
ican Peace Mobilization that are listed by the American Peace Mobili- 
zation as their sponsors, are also engaging in this program wdiich is 
being advanced by the American Peace Mobilization. They have a 
set plan of campaign which I will go into later. 

Of these groups I found that the most active, other than the Ameri- 
can Peace Mobilization as a central organization, is the American 
Youth Congress, the American Negro Congress, and the International 
Workers" Order. Possibly I should have mentioned the International 
Workers' Order first but it was very difficult to tell just which group 
Avas the most active. It would depend upon the size of its member- 
ship to tell wliich was carrying on the most active campaign. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean the National Negro Congress? 

Miss Huffman. The National Negro Congress; yes, sir. 

The locals of the C. I. O. and A. F. of L., that participated in the 
American Peace Mobilization are also, we find, carrying out this same 
program. 

Mr. VooRHis. Now, just a minute. Do you mean that locals partic- 
ipated or do you mean that persons came to the meeting and said 
they were members of such and such a local, but came on their own 
hook ? 

Miss Huffman. Congressman Voorhis, in talking to men from the 
United Electrical. Radio and Machine Workers of America, in talk- 
ing to some of the delegates from that local, I found that their 
local had voted them in as delegates. I am referring to as far as the 
program is concerned. 

Mr. VooRHis. Which local is that? Can you give us the name of 
the local? 

Mr. Starnes. It is in the record. 

Miss Huffman. The numbers of the eight locals that are in the 
record from the testimony yesterday, that voted delegates to the 
American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Voorhis. And it wasn't a case of where a single individual 
stated he represented a local? 

Mr. Matthews. I can give you the numbers if you want them. 



8462 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRiiis. I don't care so much about that. I want to be sure 
the record is specific about whether or not the locals were claimed 
to be represented by a single member or whether it was action taken 
by the local itself. 

Mr. Matthews. This is the official program of the American Peace 
Mobilization, signed by the Electrical — United Electrical, Radio and 
Machine Workers Union of America, Local 36, and also Local 1225, 

Mr. VooRHis. Wliat Miss Huffman was talking about was the locals 
that are listed there? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. As having been on that list? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. And presumably if there is any mistake about it we 
will hear about that. But I mean their official statement is to the 
effect that these locals by their own action went on record about this 
matter, is that right? 

Miss Huffman. That is correct. 

Mr. VooRHis. I think it is important to be sure that some indi- 
viduals don't attempt to commit organizations against the will of 
the organization. That is what I have in mind. 

Miss Huffman. No; Congressman Voorhis. In this particular in- 
vestigation concerning the activities of un-American groups and how 
they affect the United States Army, I took that into special con- 
sideration, that some individual was not representing himself as 
representing the group. In fact, I spent several weeks trying to 
get a line of demarcation between who the people were who were 
individual members or even officers of an organization, but without 
the authorized authority to represent that organization. 

When I mention the "locals" I am talking of locals who designated 
official delegates and where that local itself affiliated itself with the 
American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Voorhis. Are you in a position to answer as to whether in the 
case of this electrical workers union that you mentioned, you do not 
mean the InteiTiational Brotherhood of Electrical Workers? 

Miss Huffman. No, sir. 

Mr. Voorhis. But the C. I. O. affiliate. Can you answer wdiether 
in the case of one or two of those locals, at least, whether the locals 
merely voted power to their executive board to decide the question 
and then the executive board voted to affiliate with the American 
Peace Mobilization — do you know whether that was the case? 

Miss Huffman. Jack Marshall, of Local 1225, I believe, told me 
that it was a membei'ship — a local membership meeting that had voted 
him as a delegate and had voted Mr. Fahy, and that they were cover- 
ing the expenses of the 30 delegates and that they had to go back 
and make a report to the local because the local itself was going 
to follow out the program. 

As a matter of fact, he asked me to cover part of the labor con- 
ference for him and part of the meeting on the floor because he would 
be unable to be present so he could take a report back to his local. 
It was one means I used of obtaining entrance on the delegates floor. 

Mr. Starnes. Proceed with your statement. 

Miss Huffman. We also find among these groups officers of the 
Y. M. C. A., Y. M. H. A., Y. W. C. A., and Y. W. H. A. I will 
mention those names later as I come to them in the group. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8463 

School leadei-s and repi'esentatives of church groups or individuals 
from church groups. 

Their method of contact is to divide their approach into a direct 
and indirect approach. The direct method of contact comes through 
the fact that there are members of these organizations being inducted 
into the Army under the conscription act. 

According to reports, Woodie Guthrie, known as "Woodie," is a 
conscriptee and is now at Camp Dix. 

Now, Woodie Guthrie, a Communist, is a guitar-playing, ballad- 
singing entertainer, brought to! New York by Will Greer, also a 
Conununist, and incidentally the grandson-in-law of Ella May Bloor, 
known as "Mother Bloor," Pennsylvania State secretary of the Com- 
munist Party. 

Woodie Guthrie was brought by Will Greer from Oklahoma and 
advertised as one of the "Joads,'- or migratory workers. 

During the past 3 or 4 years Woodie Guthrie has become one of 
the outstanding entertainers in the Communist Party. Communist 
Party fronts, and other left-wing organization meetings. 

Now, at a recent American Peace Mobilization meeting, in fact 
I might say that at the upper Manhattan meeting, the midtown 
meeting, one of the large Harlem meetings, a meeting in Queens, 
and a meeting in Brooklyn, people in the audience, before the meet- 
ing had started, did a great deal of rejoicing over the amount of 
good that Woodie Guthrie could do now that he was in the camp. 

He is an entertainer of the droll, homespun variety that tells tales 
and plays his guitar. And I have heard him on numerous occasions 
and it is always with this definite Communist Party tinge, and in his 
singing and in his talk he has never tried to attempt to conceal the 
fact that he was the columnist for the Daily Worker or that he was 
a member of the Communist Party and represented it as such. 

Besides mentioning that one particularly, for the boys who are at- 
tending the Peace — who are attending these American Peace meet- 
ings and have their registration cards or have just been called for 
their examination, there is always a great deal of, I would say, al- 
most joy over the fact that they are going to get in — not that the 
boys particularly want to go but they are going to get "work done 
there in the camp." 

The second method of contact is through the families of the boys. 
Now, in the American Peace Volunteer publication for May 17, 1941, 
on page 2 — may I correct that, please, on page 4 we find an item 
that : "Staten Island visits families of conscriptees last week. The 
members of the American Peace Mobilization Council on Staten 
Island visited the families of 30 draftees. During the course of these 
visits more than 20 bought A. P. M. literature and promised to come 
to council meetings." 

Now, the fact is that contacting the families of the conscriptees 
has been discussed not so frequently from the platform at public 
American Peace Mobilization meetings as it has been discussed by 
the ])eople who were later the speakers and discussed before the 
meetings started. 

The next form of contact is through club and recreational facilities 
set up by these groups in areas surrounding the camps. 

62626 — 41— vol. 14 20 



3464 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

We have again a copy of the A. P. M. memo which covered the 
draft in military camp conferences, in which Emerson Daggett, 
the representative of the San Francisco Industrial Union Council, 
told of plans to start a recreation center for the boys in the Cali- 
fornia camps. He proposed that local A. P. M. groups, together 
with the trade-union and youth groups, establish such centers where 
conscripts can find educational and recreational activities "which are 
sorely lacking in the camps." 

Also at this conference one woman from South Carolina and an- 
other womain from North Carolina, a woman who stated that she had 
lived within a few miles of Camp Meade, told of the action that had 
already gone forward — that it was set up, that it wasn't something 
that was just proposed, and inasmuch as the individual from near 
Camp Meade, inasmuch as thev had not raised enough funds to 
hire a hall or a big meeting place where they could hold dances, 
three different people, and she designated at the time they were all 
from the International Workers' Order, were using their homes to 
entertain the boys and put literature there for the boys to read in 
their homes. 

The next method of contact is through the so-called conscription 
committees or People's Rights Committees. 

I wish I could leave that there and then go back to those committees 
because their entire progiam is an important phase, one of which is 
corresponding with the boys in camps and visiting the boys in camps. 

The next method of contact is through literature sent directly to 
the boys or sent by the families of the boys. And then the next item, 
activities in areas surrounding the camps. 

Now, at the cultural division meeting that was held at the fraternal 
clubhouse — that is the cultural division of the A. P. M., which Lloyd 
Gough was the chairman of, they played a series of records, some of 
which wei'e introduced in testimony yesterday, and another record 
that tells of the colored soldier boy from the World War that came 
back and was finally hanged down South in his uniform, and it is a 
particidarly gruesome song, a very disheartening one, I would say, 
at least as far as the boys were concerned; and they had stacked that 
day on the platform what they said were 2,000 of those recordings 
that were being put in the restaurants and recreational points in the 
areas surrounding the camps, and they were all addressed. I went 
up to look at them before I was stopped by someone who knew me 
from the Federal Theater Project, and found that the top group 
were being sent to restaurants in and around Trenton, N. J., which 
is not far from Camp Dix. 

Then, of course, the indirect method of contact is through the gen- 
eral entertainment. I am not going into the entertainment method 
of contact; but on these committees that are set u]3 the various names 
are being used. To date there are the Conscript's Welfare Com- 
mittee, People's Rights Committee, Conscriptee Committees, Draft 
Aid Committees. 

At one A. P. M. meeting that I attended Miss Kneiper and Dr. 
Annette Rubinstein brought out the fact that the branches of these 
committees should be given comnumity or folksy sounding names like 
"Committee for Aid to Our Sons In Camp," or "Washington Heights 
Committee To Assist The Boys In Camps." 



UN-AMERICAN PUorAClANDA ACTIVITIES §4(35 

Mr. Staknes. Ill other woi-ds, jjet it[) iiiiines, caiiiouflagiiig- names; 
is that tlie idea i 

Miss Huffman. Yes. The program of the committee — of these 
committees, which is currently called "the eight-point program of 
the American Peace JSIobilization, the seven-jpoint program, the 
three-point," was adopted at the American Peace Mobilization meet- 
ing. Shall I read the eight points of that program? I believe it 
is pertinent, Congressman Starnes. 

Mr. Staknes. All right. 

Miss Huffman, (reading) : 

Guard ag;aisnt discriminatory conscription aimed at labor, peace, and pro- 
gressive organizations. 

Fight increases in prices and rent, and general wartime profiteering. 

Protect rights of conscripts to vote, campaign on political issues, participate 
in trade unions, receive luicensored mail. 

Fight Jim Crowism in conscripted and liegular armed forces, protest segre- 
gation of Negroes in separate regiments, discriminatory assignments to menial 
tasks, and st» forth. 

See that conscripts have adequate housing, health protection and furlough 
rights 1 week every .3 months. 

Prevent evictions, foreclosures on installment buying, and so forth. 

Work to guarantee unconditional reemployment of conscripts, not dependent, 
as now, on prevailing conditions. 

Campaign for increase in conscript pay to $40 a month, continuation of 
social-security rights, adequate compensation for disability, injury, or death. 

The seven-point program varies only slightly from the eight-point 
program. In fact, the one point that is missing being actually incor- 
porated in the seven-point program though a slight difference in 
wording. 

The three-point program AYliich incidentally appeared in the Daily 
Worker, is really a method of operation, I w^ould call it, although 
they refer to it as "the three-point action program." 

Draftees will be given advice in answering questionnaires from draft boards 
and will get legal service in preparing appeals from board decisions 

Draftees will be helped to save their property from loan sharks while in the 
Army. Families of draftees will be given help and eviction cases will be fought. 

Tlie committee will maintain contact with the draftees and will maintain 
their union consciousness by correspondence and union literature. 

Now the organization of these committees which have already been 
set up and have been approved by the National Negro Congress and 
the National Negro Youth Congress, and have these points in their 
pi-ogram : 

Organized correspondence with draftees from their respective organizations. 

Organize large delegations of parents, trade-union brothers, church members 
and so forth to visit the nearl)y camps to investigate conditions. 

Organize delegations to make demands upon the camp commanders and the 
State defense boards for immediate redesss of all grievances uncovered. 

Give wide publicity to all action taken to further the welfare of the con- 
.scripts through ihe press and mass meetings. 

In talking with the various people and in checking the literature 
we find that these groups wnll not act as representatives of these 
committees or the connnittees that we have given you a feW' of 
the names, but that the plan is to a[)pear as spontaneous individual 
complaints made by relatives or friends in the interests of their 
loved ones. 



8466 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, an organized campaign to make 
it appear that protests are spontaneous affairs; as if the complaints 
were based on facts rather than just a campaign of propaganda. 

Miss Huffman. It is exactly similar to the situation in the Fed- 
eral theater project. It is the same type and pattern — turmoil, 
creating distrust, agitation — nobody knows who is who by the time 
they get through. 

We find that line of attack is as follows : The help the boys — the 
unsanitary camp conditions — vermin-infested quarters — quarters are 
too hot — they are too cold — too wet and they are too dry. There is 
bad food. There is insufficient food. There is improper housing. 
There is lack of sanitary facilities. There is poor medical attention. 
Fascist-minded officers. 

In fact, in literature already put out along this line General 
Marshall has been referred to a number of times — I have some of 
it here — as "a Fascist-minded individual in charge of the Army." 
Abuse of men by officers, particularly Negroes; I think we have four 
cases on that. 

Mr. Stabnes. You will insert those at their proper place in your 
testimony and they will be either incorporated in the record or 
attached as exhibits. 

Miss Huffman. Yes. I have one item that appears in the publi- 
cation called Cavalcade of the National Negro Congress. In it 
is stated: "Brutal treatment of Negro conscripts in the camps at 
the hands of prejudiced white officers;" and Jim Crowism in the 
camps. I feel that that should have been possibly a little higher 
on the list because it is one of the things that they are using which 
causes a great deal of turmoil. 

The inadequate pay, longer furloughs, the distance the boys are 
from home ; the conditions at home and the condition of the family ; 
the fear stories of the horrors of war; the fact that this is a cap- 
italist war. In fact, the slogan I quote: "Refuse to Die for Wall 
Street" has already been adopted by some of these groups that 
have been set up. 

The one group that has been set up in upper Manhattan have 
adopted that as their slogan: "Refuse to Die for Wall Street." An- 
other point they are using in their campaign is censorship of mail — 
the treatment of the draftees, and their treatment after the war — 
the fact that the soldiers had no jobs, and so forth, and so forth, and 
so forth; the possible extension of the 1-year limit. 

Another point that they are using is the fact that this Govern- 
ment wants war and the Soviet wants peace. And then the possibility 
of death on a foreign shore. 

The entire line of attack is being directed toward installing a 
self-pity that can be turned to militant action, hatred, and fear. 

Besides the amount of material that we found in the publications 
that were put out by the American Peace Mobilization or groups 
whose material was distributed at the American Peace Mobilization, 
one of which is this regarding the censorship of mail, which has at 
the top of it a drawing of a letter starting : "Dear Mom." And you 
can't see the rest of the letter for the censor stamp across it, and then 
underneath it is a memorandum signed by Lt. Col. John H. Ahrens, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8467 

Adjutant General, Fortv-fourth Division, Fort Dix, which appeared 
in the World Tele<2:ram, November 4, 1940, and reads as follows: 

It is the desire of the commanding general that enlisted men be encouraged 
to write home and that, so far as is reasonable, they be influenced to present 
a favorable imiu-essiou of conditions in their \inits. 

Followino- that are the words "Is this peacetime censorship a fore- 
runner of wartime gag rule?" 
Then it says: 

Questions on the conscription law will be discussed at the community forum. 

Now, that meeting was sponsored by the Upper Manhattan Peace 
Council of the American People's Mobilization. 

Besides that literature we checked a number of the publications 
that are put out by the camps, and found that there are items which 
appear, items that — possibly the same and in some instances the same 
items appear in more than one issue which would follow that par- 
ticular line of campaign. 

Now, we took great care and caution in analyzing that, A boy 
Avho is writing home because he is homesick may really be genuinely 
homesick, so we tried not to split hairs but only take those instances 
of material there would appear to be a definite question of why that 
material would appear in a camp paper. 

For instance, following the line of attack there were other items 
as they would affect the camps that appeared in the papers that would 
have nothing to do with the activities of that campaign. For in- 
stance, this appears in the Fort Dix Gazette of May 7, 1941. Under 
one of the columns it states : 

J. Philips Waring, E's Gazette correspondent, is a 1940 A. B. from the West 
Virginia State College. He was successful in achieving wonderful success in 
the organization work with the youth section of the N. A. A. C. P., and the Southern 
Youth Congress. He was elected to the Who's Who in Negro American colleges. 

Phil's experience of several years in recreation and community leader has 
met the same results under his hand since coming into the Army. He has 
successfully organized the B. O. Davis Service Forum. 

I mention that because in the publications of the Southern Negro 
Congress and the Southern Youtli Congi^ess we find this seven-point 
plan, this eight-point plan, and this three-point plan mentioned, and 
here we have one of their organizers setting up what is known as a 
B. O. Davis Service Forum at Fort Dix. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify "B. O. Davis" — you know 
who he is ? 

Miss Huffman. I do not. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Starxes. Can you ? 

Mr. Matthews. Editor of the Daily Worker. 

Mr. Starnes. He is editor of the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Matthews. One of the editors of the Daily Worker. 

Miss Huffman. Another point that they are stressing in their fear 
campaign is the number of noncitizens that are in the American Army, 
and we find in these publications of the camps several references — in 
fact, in this particular edition there is reference to one boy who is not 
a citizen, who was a member of the Hitler youth movement. 

In this publication, which is also from Fort Dix, we have three items 
on conditions in the camp pertaining to health. 



8468 UN-AMERICAN PROl'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. You say this man is a nieiiiber of the Hitler youth 
movement ? 

Miss Huffman. This one boy is referred to as having been a member 
of the Hitler youth movement. 

Then ill 1934 was inducted into the Hitler youth movement. It was 
compulsory to join at that time. If you did not join, you were looked 
upon as a slacker and shunned by your friends. 

Saturday was designated as the meeting day — supposed to be a 
fresh-air movement, hikes — and it goes on about the military aspects 
of the Hitler youth movement. 

This publication, as I said, carried an item regardhig the sanitary 
conditions of the camp — the fact tliat the camp was too hot and the 
health and food were all dwelt on in this publication. 

This publication, also from Fort Dix, has a repeat on a letter which 
appears in another publication regarding the conditions at home, bear- 
ing out that point. That had appeared in two of those. And in this 
publication there was a poem that I had first seen at an American 
Peace Mobilization meeting. There were two poems, one bringing 
out the point of a capitalist war and the letter, incidentally, regarding 
1-ome conditions is reproduced in this magazine from the Boston area. 

Mr. Starnes. In checking the testimony. Dr. Matthews, you wnll 
have to have the witness identiTy the various documents to which she 
has referred, because they have not been properly identified in the 
record. She refers to "this publication" or that publication. Let 
them be properly identified and munbered and attached as exhibits to 
her testimony. 

Miss Huffman, in the course of your investigations of the efforts 
of the American Peace Mobilization and other organizations to create 
a feeling of unrest and disaffection among the armed forces of the 
United States, did you find them attempting to use theaters — 1 mean 
using places or services or organizations of tliat type and character? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Did you find that to be true ? 

Miss Huffman. We found that the entertainment in the camps 
was being carried on in a variety of ways, both by individual enter- 
tainers from outside the camp, entertainers from the personnel of the 
camp with civilian directors — civilian directors coming in to direct 
the boys in their plays, and we had one instance of a man who had — 
I have the material here regarding this man — in fact, this entire 
package is with reference to him, from a group that has been left 
wing over a long period of time. He is director in the Trenton area 
of the Theater League. He has gone into Camp Dix directing a 
number of the plays there. That is Max Glandvard. An article 
which appeared in the Theater magazine by him, also appeared in 
the Daily Worker and is entitled "The Progressive Theater in War- 
time." It pertained to the civilian activities in the camp. 
,, Mr. Starnes. Then you have found in the course of your investi- 
gations a definite attempt on the part of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation and of the Communist Party to attempt to influence the type 
of entertainment being given by civilian agencies in the camps? 

Miss Huffman. I would say very definitely, Congressman Starnes. 
We have one instance here at Fort Bragg where a play was written 
by one of the privates at the camp and directed by him and put on 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8469 

in the oainp. That script — I don't see it here in this p:ickno;e but I 
liave that script and that script is defiuitely left-winj^ propaganda. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any evidence at all to the effect that 
there has been any attempt to bring pressure upon or to get into the 
organizations that are headed by Mr. Chai'les Taft ? 

Miss Hi'FFMAx. The Joint Army and Navy Committee on Recrea- 
tion and Welfare ? 

Mr. Starnes. Yes. 

Miss Huffman. Yes. Numerous attempts have been made and 
prior to the setting up of that committee Paul (Ireen, Barrett H. 
Clark, and Charles Leacham made a number of trips to Washington 
here to obtain the contracts. Paul Green has been a left-wing writer 
and is now head of the National Theater Conference, a group of 
community theaters, but we have a complete history on him and his 
left-wing activities in the organizations he belongs to. 

Mr. Vcx)RHis. I would like to ask a question: Do you think left 
wing is synonymous with communism? 

]\Iiss Huffman. Yes; I do. 

Mr. VooRHis. You do? 

Miss Huffman. Oh, yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to say that I don't. 

Miss Huffman. I am using it as synonymous with communism 
merely because I was keeping away from Communist Party mem- 
bership, but when I say "left wing" I mean individuals who couldn't 
possibly be so stupid that they wouldn't know they were following 
the Communist Party line. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is a different matter. 

Miss Huffman. I am not talking about genuinely sincere liberals. 

Mr. Starnes. Who are too stupid to know they are being used by 
the Connnunists. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to ask one more question. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. Voorhis. The important thing would be whether any of these 
people had been successful in getting into Mr. Taft's organization. 
Of course, they are going to try to influence it, but have they been 
successful in doing so? 

Miss Huffman. Well, Robert Sherwood was the president of the 
Playwrights Co. in New York City. I don't feel that the Playrights 
Co. could be designated, which was a producing organization, as a 
left-wing organization, using my definition of left wing, but at the 
same time very prominent in the Playwrights Co. in New Yorii, 
along with Robert Sherwood, was Elmer Rice, about whose radical- 
ism there can be little question, and Maxwell Anderson. A history 
of Maxwell Anderson is here. 

Mr. VooRHis. What does that have to do with Mr. Taft's com- 
mittee? 

Miss Huffman. Robert Sherwood is the chairman of the subcom- 
mittee on entertainment of Mr. Taft's committee, and I feel, I really 
feel, that a great deal more ■ 

Mr. Starnes. Dr. ]\Iatthews, is there any case record of any of 
these parties here that Miss Huffman is referring to in her testimony, 
which indicates that they are members of an}' Comnnmist organi- 
zations? 



g4!70 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. If she meant to say before she finished her sen- 
tence that Maxwell Anderson was included in that group — did you 
mean to say that? 

Miss Huffman. I said Maxwell Anderson was associated with 
Eobert Sherwood in the new Playwrights Theater. 

Mr, Matthews. There is a case record on Elmer Rice. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you have that inserted in the record in con- 
nection with Miss Huffman's testimony, the case record showing 
the groups with whom Robert Sherwood has been identified or affil- 
iated with as a member? 

Miss Huffman. And he was also a speaker on various occasions 
with Representative Vito Marcantonio before groups — this is some 
years back, classified as left-wing organizations. I haven't the his- 
tory of those organizations here. 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you mean groups that have been classified as 
left-wing organizations? You mean they are progressive organi- 
zations ? 

Mr. Mason. Or Communist organizations. 

Mr. VooRHis. Communist orgaiiizations. 

Miss Huffman. I will avoid the use of the words "left wing." 
I meant Communist-front organizations, organizations we have listed 
as being affiliated with and active with the American Peace Mobili- 
zation. 

I will carefully avoid the use of the words "left wing." 

Mr. Starnes. Be very careful about that. 

Mr. VooRHis. I don't mind that. All I want to do is make my 
own position plain. 

Mr. Starnes. Be very careful, because in the use of the words 
"left wing," it has such a wide variety of meanings, and it affects 
so many different people and in so many different ways. If you 
can find a better phrase, I prefer you use it. 

Miss Huffman. Then, a subcommittee has been set up, the Citizens' 
Committee for the Army and Navy — that is a committee of the sub- 
committee of the joint committee. 

Thomas J. Watson is chairman of that committee. The com- 
mittee consists of Edward Arnold, John Benson, Irving Berlin, Gene 
Buck, George M. Cohan, Bette Davis, Y. Frank Freedman, Helen 
Hayes, Emily Holt — while Helen Hayes is one of our leading 
actresses, she was head of the milk fund for the North American- 
Spanish Committee, and was very active with the Theater Arts 
Committee. 

Mr. Starnes. Miss Huffman, does that cover the story? 

Miss Huffman. Well, the activities on the camps, and then, too, 
we have some information to the effect that three different groups — 
we have specific evidence, testimony — I haven't gone beyond that — 
they are having classes in writing particular skits and scripts for 
the camps, to be put on, and these particular groups are groups 
that are connected with front organizations. 

Mr. Starnes. Dr. Matthews, if you will produce these documents 
and identify some of them for the record we will appreciate it. 

Mr. Voorhis. I don't know just where we left Mr. Taft on this 
proposition. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8471 

Mr. Starnes. I nuM-ely nsked Miss Huffman if sho found any evi- 
dence of the fact that the American Peace Mobilization or the Coni- 
nnmist Pai-ty had made an attempt to obtain a position in that 
orfranizationi or if they had attempted to get the type of phxys suit- 
able for propaganda " purposes used by that group. Nobody is 
attacking Mr. Taft and nobody is attacking anything. It was a 
question of Avhether or not they found sucli attempt had been made 
and she said there had been such an attempt. 

Miss HuFFiMAN. There have been a series of attempts. As a matter 
of fact, Paul Green did put on some plays down in some of these 
southern camps and there have been a series of attempts by a number 
of people with material being provided the committee, some of which 
was successful, some of which was not successful in putting enter- 
tainers into the camps. 

The committee set up with Mr. Taft in charge of it to correlate 
this activity should be one means of correcting it instead of putting 
the responsibility on busy camp commanders to have to figure out the 
subtleties and the fitness of some of these plays that are going in, 
and someone who really is informed on it should be in charge of it. 

Mr. Starnes. You have not heard anybody say that Mr. Taft was 
a Communist or a bad man or anything like that at all? 

Miss Huffman. No; I have not. 

Mr. Starnes. Nobody said that at all, nobody intimated that to 
you at any time, have they ? 

Miss Huffman. No; they have not. But that is as far as we 
have gone into the program concerning the camp activities — to 
agitate them through their families by direct contact and the usual 
"boy meets girl" technique, and the activities surrounding the camps. 

I find that with the American Peace Mobilization at the present 
time they are concerning themselves — in talks I have had with 
various people who belong to the International Workers Order and 
other groups, that they are very much concerning themselves with 
the possibilities of carrying on the activities in the areas, such as 
Trenton and various others closely surrounding the camps, because 
of the lack of entertainment facilities and their difficulty in getting 
it in the camps. They are still preparing their material to go into 
the camps under this other committee. There is never a day they are 
not trying to get in. 

Mr. Starnes. I want this testimony for the record because I hap- 
pen to know the Army is very much interested in studying and check- 
ing upon the same subject matter. 

Now Dr. Matthews, I would like to have introduced in the record 
at this point the names of the national officers and the executive 
council or by whatever name their governing body or advisory body 
is called, of the American Peace Mobilization. And while it may 
be too length}' to give verbal testimony concerning it, I wish you 
would attach or insert after the names of each one in the record, 
whether or not there is any Communist Party affiliation or any mem- 
bership in any Communist front organization. 

Mr. Matthews. I have several lists that I would like to have 
placed in the record in compliance with your request. 

Mr. Starnes. I would like to have the parent one first, if I may. 
I think you mentioned a sort of chart or graph yesterday. 



8472 UN-AMERICAN PRO! '.UGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. That is the list of the officers of the American 
Peace Mobilization from the Daily Worker of September 3, 1940. 
These are the permanent officers elected to date to lead the American 
Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. And that was obtained from the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; this was the first published list after 
the Chicago conference. There have been subsequent lists with ad- 
ditions. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not, Doctor, that is the 
first list that was published in any newspaper? 

Mr. Matthews. I could not say, Congressman. 

Mr. Starnes. But it was the first list that has been brought to 
your attention — the first you have any record of? 

Mr. Matthews. The first we were able to obtain ; yes. 

Miss Huffman, you are familiar with this docmnent? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe it for the record? 

Miss Huffman. This is a document of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation that was sold at the time of the American People's Meeting 
at the Mecca Temple, entitled "The Story of A. P. M." The pic- 
tures and a thumbnail sketch of the historj^ of these officers — Rev. 
Jolm B. Thompson 

Mr. Starnes. Bv the way, who is this John B. Thompson, Dr. 
Matthews ? 

Miss Huffman. He is dean of the Presbyterian Foundation of 
the University of Oklahoma and pastor of the First Presbyterian 
Church in Noi-man, near Oklahoma City. 

Mr. Matthews. He is also chairman of the Southern Conference 
for Human Welfare, according to the original documents in the com- 
mittee's files. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

IMiss Huffman. Reid Robinson, who is a vice cliairman; Dr. Max 
Yergan, a vice chairman; Hon. Vito Marcantonio, a vice cliairman; 
Captain Terrell, a vice chairman ; Theodore Dreiser, a vice chairman ; 
Jack McMichael, a vice cliairman; Frederick V. Field, executive secre- 
tary; Morris Watson, laboi- representative, and he has since been made 
the provisional secretaiy of the National Labor Committee Against 
War; Marian Briggs, administrative secretary. 

Mr. Starnes. That is the same Marian Briggs, I assume, who sent 
this telegram? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. 

Mr, Matthews. This program also contains a list of the sponsors 
of the American Peace Mobilization ; does it not ? 

Miss Huffman. It contains a list that is designated as sponsors. 
It is a partial list of the committee list of sponsors and the program 
of the meetings. Then it includes for the New York Citv Council : 
Aline Davis Hays, C. H. Van Tyne, Walter Scott Neff, and Oscar 
Schneller, and a description of the activities. Then the songs of the 
American Peace Mobilizati(m: "Billv Boy," and "Franklin, Oh 
Franklin," and "The Farmer is the Man That Feeds Them All." and 
"Jim Crow," and "Get Out and Stav Out of War," and "Ballad of 
October 16," "The Strange Death of" John Doe," and "Plow Under." 
That is the one that ends "Plow Under Every Fourth American Bov." 



UN-AMFJIICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8473 

Mr. Starnes. Tliat particular publication contains the purported 
list of national officials and sponsors of the American Peace Mobili- 
zation at that time? 

Miss Huffman. Yes. Con<rressman Starnes, and in addition a list 
of the sponsoring- organizations. The list is headed by the American 
Student Union and American Youth Congress, Armour Local Pack- 
ing House Workers, C. I. O., Blount County, Ala., Farmers Union. 

Mr. ]N[.v'rTiii:ws. Now I show you a letterhead of the Washington 
Peace Mobilization which contains the names of the Washington 
officers and committee members. 

Miss Huffman. The president is Hudson Wells, the vice president 
is Myrtle Powell, Rev. A. Joseph Edwards, Lucy Hancock, James 
Harris 

Mr. Starnes. Did you say Lucy Hancock ? 

Miss Hutffman. Yes: James Harris, Louis Stedman, Costas 
Alexiou, Dr. Alpheus Hunton, and Jack Zucker. The secretary- 
treasurer is Sarah V. Montgomery, and the organizer is Mary Ricli- 
ardson, 

Mr. Starnes. Each of tliose documents will be incorporated in the 
record. 

Mr. Matphews, We have a suj)plementary list from the Daily 
AYorker for January 14. 1941. contained in an article entitled "Six- 
teen Top Union Leaders Back Peace Parley." This is a meeting of 
the American Peace Mobilization to be held in Washington January 
25 to 27, and the individuals named among the 16 are Reid Robinson, 
president of the Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers of America; Michael 
J. Quill, president of the Transport Workers Union; George C. 
Peacock, president of the National Association of Die Casters; Louis 
Allen Berne, president of the Federation of Architects, Engineers, 
Chemists, and Technicians; E. F. Burke, secretary. National Marine 
Crooks and Stewards Association; Abram Flaxer, jjresident of the 
State, County, and Municipal AVorkers of America; Ben Gold, presi- 
dent. International Fur and Leather Workers Union; Donald Hender- 
son, president. United Cannery, Agricultural, Packing, and Allied 
Workers of America ; J. F. Jurich. president. International Union of 
Fishermen and Allied AVorkers of America; Mat Meehan. secretary. 
International Longshcn-emen's a'nd Warehousemen's Union; Lewis 
Merrill, president. United Office and Professional Workers of Ameri- 
ca ; Frederick N. IVIyers. general organizer. National Maritime Union; 
Grant AA". Oakes. chairman Farm E(juipment Organizing Committee; 
O. M. Orton, president. International AA^ood Workers of America; 
Joseph Selly, president of the American Communications Association ; 
and Louis Weinstock. secretai'V. District 9 of the American Federa- 
tion of Labor, Affiliated Brothei-hood of Painters, Decorators, and 
Paperhangers of America. 

I may point out that in the list of 16 only 1 of the union leaders 
named is in the American Federation of Labor. The Daily AA^orker 
seems to have taken special jiains to i)oint that out. The other 15 are 
heads of C. I. O. unions, even if those unions are not so designated 
here. 

AA'^e have a list of ])ersons who were present or }>articipated in some 
manner in the American Peo^^le's Meeting in New York. 



8474 un-amp:rican propaganda activities 

Miss Huffman, I will ask you if a petition to free Earl Browder 
was circulated and signed at the American People's Meeting in New 
York? 

Miss Huffman. It was. 

Mr. Matthews. And this issue of the Daily Worker for May 2, 1941, 
has an article entitled "Signers of Petition to Free Browder." The 
following is the list of 688 persons who signed the petition demanding 
the freedom of Earl Browder, while attending the American Peace 
Mobilization meeting, held here last April 6. 

I ask that that be received in evidence. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The article referred to was marked "Matthews' Exhibit 1.") 

Miss Huffman. Incidentally, Dr. Matthews, this list is the list 
that was signed at the A. P. M. meeting. There was also a petition to 
free Browder that was being signed at the Tallentire June Celebration. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Congressman, would you like to have any of 
these national officers' records read as samples at this time or not? 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have any that are of particular interest? 

Mr. Matthews. They are rather bulky. These are on each of the 
individuals, one set of cards for each individual. 

Mr. Starnes, That deals, of course, with, their affiliations in Com- 
munist front organizations? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Or with the Connimnist Party ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes, sir; this is the record of Langston Hughes, a 
member of the national council of the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. Starnes. They seem to be quite bulky, so it will probably serve 
the purpose by having them inserted in the record along with their 
names. 

Mr. Mati'hews. A number of these individuals are members of the 
Communist Party of public record. Langston HugheS; for example, 
has run for office on the Communist Party ticket. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you have others that have public records of being 
Communists ? 

Mr. Matthews. Donald Henderson is a member of the Communist 
Party of public record. His reports to the central committee of the 
Communist Party are published in the press of the Communist Party 
itself. 

I have here a copy of Soviet Russia Today for August 1936, which 
contains an interview by Ben Davis with Paul Robeson, in which 
Robeson while he does not declare that he is a member of the Com- 
munist Party, states that he has made his choice for communism. 
Robeson is one of the vice chairmen of the American Peace Mobiliza- 
tion, and I ask that this copy of the Soviet Russia Today, with this 
interview, be made a part of the record. 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The magazine, Soviet Russia Today, was marked "Matthews 
Exhibit 2, May 22, 1941.") 

Mr. Starnes. How many are on the executive committee; do you 
know? 

Mr. Matthews. The national executive committee is a list of about 
60. 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8475 

Mr. Starxes. Will you cluH-k and furinsh us tlip pr()])ortionate 
number of Avho are actual C'onnnunist members and those who are in 
front orjxanizations so that we may have that in succinct form? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Staknes. All rio:ht; is there anything else at this point? 

Mr. Matthews. We have a collection of the literature that was dis- 
tributed at the American Peace Mobilization meeting in New York. 
The sionificance of this, if I may take the liberty of interpreting it, 
is that every piece of literature which these investigators were able to 
obtain at the meeting, is literature which comes from an organization 
which has been designated by this committee as a Communist front 
organization, or by rather voluminous evidence in the records of the 
oonniiittee, showing a rather complete interlocking of the various 
front organizations of the Communist Party, including the American 
Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. VooRHis. You don't mean that they all come from one organi- 
zation, do you? AVhat I mean is, they came from a number of differ- 
ent organizations? 

Mr. Matthews. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. All of which have some connection with the Com- 
munist front organizations or party? 

Mr. Matthews. It would appear from the literature that was dis- 
tributed at the American Peace Molulization and brought to the com- 
mittee by these two investigators, that no organization which is not 
connected with the Communist Party took the occasion to distribute 
its literature at that meeting. 

Mr. Staknes. I wan to bi'ing that point out : There was no other 
type of literature being distributed there? 

Mr. Matthews. No, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Either free or being sold there ? 

Miss Huffman. That is right. 

Mr. Starxes. Other than that sponsored by the Communist Party 
or its front organizations; is that correct? 

Miss Huffman. That is correct, Mr. Starnes. 

Mr. Starnes. W"as that correct insofar as you found, ISIiss Spargo ? 

Miss Spargo. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. We will ask the investigators to identify the litera- 
ture as being collected at the meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. You prepared this collection of literature yourself; 
did you not? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir; every bit of it. 

Mr. Matthews. This collection of literature you did prepare; is 
that correct? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. And is this literature which was distributed at the 
meeting ? 

Miss Huffmax-. Distributed or sold. 

Mr. Matthews. Distributed or sold at the meeting of the American 
Peace Mobilization ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. In New York ? 



8476 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Miss Huffman, Yes, sir ; not all at the Mecca Temple but at vari 
oils American Peace Mobilization meetings. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you receive this in evidence? 

Mr. Starnes. It is so ordered. 

(The material referred to was marked "Huffman Exhibits, Ma> 
22, 1941.") 

Mr. Starnes. Anything else now, Dr. Matthews ? 

Mr. Matthews. We have a complete collection of photographs 
taken of the peace vigil in front of the White House, Mr. Chairman, 
which I offer in evidence as exhibits. 

Mr. Starnes. Will you have somebody identity any particular 
parties of interest there who have any connection with the Commu- 
nist Party or any other subversive group ? 

Miss HuTFMAN. This is a picture — the party on the right hand 
side is Dr. Walter Scott Neff. 

Mr. Matthews. I think you mea^i on the left of the picture. 

Miss Huffman. Yes, on the left. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not the National Maritime 
Union has any delegates in this picket line ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. Ye^sterday I came by the picket line and 
one of the delegates from the National Maritime Union was one of 
the delegates who had been at the Mecca Temple meeting and who 
was later up at Randall's Island, and at Randall's Island he was, 
besides having the cap that they wore with the sign on and the pin on, 
was over at the Abraham Lincoln Brigade 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not any delegates from the 
American Communications Association is in the picket line? 

Miss Huffman. I did not see her in the picket line but Josephine 
Timms, who was a speaker at the mother's meeting on the Monday 
following Mother's Day, had stated from the platform that she was 
going and she was taking a number of people with her to go down 
on the picket line. 

Mr. Starnes. That is T-i-m-m-s ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. She is secretary of the American Communications 
Association ? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir ; she is also an officer 

Mr. Starnes. And Walter Scott Neff, who was identified in this 
picture, was identified yesterday as one of the professors at the City 
College of New York who was recently ousted as a result of the 
investigation of the Coiidre committee? 

Miss Huffman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Those photographs having been identified, Dr. Mat- 
thews, may be attached as exhibits for the record. 

(The photographs, 43 in number, were marked "Huffman Ex- 
hibit 4, May 22, 1941.") 

Mr. Starnes. Have you anything further at this time, Dr. Mat- 
thews ? 

Mr. Matthews. Nothing further at this time ; no, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. There will be no meeting of the committee this after- 
noon. The committee will adjourn until 10 o'clock Monday. 
When we convene Monday morning we will hear the testimony of 
Richard Krebs, but this phase of the hearing has not been concluded. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8477 

The committee is in possession of nnmerous docnments, member- 
ship lists, and so forth, that it is checking in a careful and pains- 
takino- manner. These are records and docnments which have been 
brouixht to the connnittee under subpena. 

Tlie Chairman, and I assume I am speakino- for the members 
of the committee, was very nnich impressed yesterday by a state- 
ment made by an investigator of this committee that there were 
Government employees who are terrified at the prospect of being 
called before this connnitte as witnesses in order to give testimony 
to any subversive activities which they might have cognizance of 
in governmental departments and agencies, this terror or fear being 
based upon the fact that it might endanger their positions. 

Of course, this connnittee has no power to guarantee anyone's 
security of tenure in either public or private employment, but it 
seems to me to be a sad connnentary that any Government employee 
of the United States of America shonld at any time have any fear 
of ai)pearing before any congressional committee to give testimony 
concerning un-American and subversive activities, or even wrong- 
doing that is not attached to nn-American and subversive activi- 
ties, to a group who are elected as representatives of the people 
of the United States. That, in my judgment, is a very sad com- 
mentary on existing conditions in certain agencies. 

Now, there has been, of course, a great deal of alarm and of fear 
by numbers of good people who may have behmged or may belong 
to the Washington Bookshop and other organizations, whose mem- 
bership lists the committee now has in its possession. These people 
are expressing a fear that they may be tarred with the Communist 
brush simply because they might have been members of a certain 
organization. It is true that the Communist Party has secured 
positions of control and power in a number of organizations which 
were wholly worthy in their inception and wholly worth wdiile if 
properly administered, That is in addition to the fact, of course, 
that they have set up a number of organizations with beautifully 
camouflaged names which camouflage their real purpose and intent. 
Every American citizen can be assured that this subcommittee will 
take no action which will bring discredit or will tend to reflect dis- 
credit upon any innocent American citizen. We do feel as a sub- 
committee, however, it is important that intelligent people who may 
be what they term themselves as "Progressive" or "Radicals" or 
"Liberals," or whatever name they want to designate themselves 
by% we do think that the time is here and the time is overdue when 
people of that type and character, who are genuinely sincere, should 
stop permitting themselves to be made dupes of. Certainly some 
of them should have enough intelligence to stay out of these organi- 
zations. AVe don't know whether there are any repeated oifenders 
in this particular respect or not. The committee is not passing on 
that matter at this time and will not until we have had an oppor- 
tunity to carefully check these lists. Whatever names may be made 
public in the future with reference to these organizations, the coun- 
try and the people and the innocent people who may be members of 
these organizations can rest assured that the names wull be made 
public only after careful checking and that every safeguard will 
be thrown around innocent people, but at the same time this sub- 



g478 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

committee \A'ill not be deterred in its investigations by the fact 
that there are innocent people in these groups and where we find 
that there are Communists or others — Xazis or Fascists or by what- 
ever name called — they are all brothers or sisters under the skin, 
because they have a common intent and common purpose at this 
time, and that is to destroy our democratic way of life. 

I want to say we intend to expose those people wherever they 
are — we don't care whether it is in some private organization or gov- 
ernmental agency. The people of the United States should know 
where they are and who they are. 

The committee will stand adjourned until Monday at 10 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 
a. m., Monday, May 26, 1941.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



MONDAY, MAY 26, 1941 

House of Representath'es, 

SUBCOINIMITTEE OF THE SpECIAL COMMITTEE 

To IN^'ESTIGATE TjN-AMERICAISr AcTRlTIES, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The subcomniittee met at 10 a. m. in the caucus room, House 
Office Building, Hon. Joe Starnes (chairman of the subcommittee) 
presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Starnes (chairman of the subcommittee), Voorhis, 
and Mason. 

Also present : ISIr. Eobert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and Dr. 
J. B. Matthews, director of research. 

Mr. Starnes. The committee will resume its sessions. Wliom will 
you have this morning, Dr. Matthews? 

Mr. Matthews. Richard Krebs. 

Mr. Starnes. Come around, ]\Ir. Krebs. 

TESTIMONY OF EICHARD KREBS 

Mr. Starnes. Please stand and raise your right hand. Do you 
solemnly swear the testimony you are going to give in this investiga- 
tion will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Mr. Krebs. I do. 

Mr. Starnes. Have a seat and you may proceed. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give your full name? 

Mr. Krebs. Richard Julius Krebs. 

Mr. Matthews. Where were you born, Mr. Krebs? 

Mr. Krebs. In Hessia, Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. When? 

Mr. Krebs. December 17, 1905. 

Mr. MArrHEws. Have you used the pen name "Jan Valtin"? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Matthews. AamX vou are the author of the book Out of the 
Night? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhen did you first come to the United States? 

Mr. Krebs. I came to the United States for the first time in 1921. 

Mr. Matthews. And how many trips or visits did you make to the 
United States subsequently? 

8479 

62626— 41— vol. 14 21 



3480 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs. I have been in and out of the TTnited States four times, 
except the last entry, which makes it five times that I entered tliis 
country. 

Mr. Matthews. And when did you last enter the United States ? 

Mr. Krebs. In March 1938. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Krebs, are you acquainted in "general with the 
newspaper the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Krebs. I have been very well acquainted with it ; not in recent 
years, thouf;h. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the Daily Worker for March 
15, 1938. Have you seen this particular issue of the Daily Worker? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Matthew\s. On pa^e 1 of this issue of the Daily Worker there 
is a photofiraph reproduced called Passport Photo of Richard Krebs. 
Is that a photofjraph of yourself? 

Mr. Krebs. It was an old picture of myself. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you state what tliat picture was, where it 
was used, or what its significance is ? 

Mr. Krebs. It was a picture used on a document of the German 
Gestapo at the time when I worked inside the (lestapo for the Com- 
munist International. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, this is a bona fide reproduction of 
a part of your Gestapo credentials? 

Mr. Krebs. That is correct. 

Mr. Starnes. Did I understand you to say when you w^ere work- 
mtr for the Communist International 

Mr. Mason. With the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. Rijiht. 

Mr. Starnes. Go ahead. Dr. Matthews. 

Mr. Matthews. You liaA'e read the article which accompanies this 
photooraph, have you not? 

Mr. Krebs. I have. 

Mr. Matthews. In this article in the Daily Worker is there any 
mention of your ever havinp; been in the Communist International 
or the Comnujnist movement? 

Mr. Krebs. No; the article was written to hide that fact. 

Mr. Matthew^s. The only chai'o;e made in the article is the one 
to the ett'ect that you were a Gestapo agent, is that correct ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir; it is the same charge made against prac- 
tically all of Lenin's friends who have since been shot under just 
that accusation. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Krebs, I show you some recent issues 
of the Daily Worker, one for January 21, 19-11. On page 7 of this 
issue of the Daily Worker there is a colunni ovei* the name of Sender 
Garlin. I wdll ask you first if you know who Sender Garlin is? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; Sender Garlin was for years the correspondent 
of the Daily Worker in Moscow. He was sent especially to Moscow 
to report on the Stalin purge trials through the American press. 

Mr. Matthews. In this particular column, Garlin is w^riting a re- 
view of your book. Out of The Night. Have you read that review? 

Mr. Krebs. I have. 

Mr, Matthews. Can you state briefly the purport of the review 
in this issue of the Daily Worker? 



UN-A.MKKICAN riiOrAUANDA ACTIVITIES 8481 

Mr. IvKF.ns. The i)uii)ort of this review is an effort to tell Daily 
AVorker readers thai T don't exist at all, but that Out of The Night 
has been written eolUn-tively by Isaac Don Levine, General Krivitsky, 
F'reda Utley", and so- forth. 

Mr. Matthews. This review contains the definite statement that 
there was no such person an Jan Valtin ^ 

Mr. Kkebs. It contains the statement that Jan Valtin is Isaac Don 
Levine. 

Mr. Matfuews. Now in the Daily Worker for January 24, 1941, 
there is a ccmtin nation of the discussion of the book. Out of The 
Nio-ht, also by Sender Garlin. Have you read this article? 

Mr. Krebs. I have. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the purport of this article? 

Mr. Krebs. Reviews of the book written by Isaac Don Levine are 
quoted but they are used in such a way as to give the readers of this 
paper the false imj^ression that Isaac Don Levine had written the 
book, and repeat the statement that Valtin did not exist, in order to 
discredit the book. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the Daily Worker for Febru- 
ary 21, 1941, which has another article by Sender Garlin, beginning; 
on the first page. Have you read that article? 

Mr. Krebs, I have. 

Mr. Matthews. By the time this article was written, had the Daily 
Worker changed its position from that of your nonexistence to a 
position that you did in reality exist as a Gestapo agent? 

Mr. Kkebs. It is one of their usual somersaults in policy aild tactics 
after they saw that the book could not be silenced to death and re- 
ceived the wide circulation that it did, then they realized that he 
argument "Valtin did not exist" was not believed by anyone, so they 
changed their tactics and now state that Valtin did exist but that he 
was a Nazi agent. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, I will ask you this question : Does the book 
Out of The Night contain sufficient detailed information or facts to 
identif}^ the author of the book in Conmiunist circles, even though 
no name at all appeared on the book? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. Many American Communists of prominence are 
mentioned in the book. Some of them were guests at my home in 
Hamburg and the book contained enough material for instant identi- 
fication by those Connnunist functionaries in America. 

Mr. Matthews. In the issue of the Daily Worker in March 1938 — 
March 15, 1938 — where the Daily AVorker through Sender Garlin said 
tliat it had obtained your Gestapo credentials 

Mr. Krebs. The Daily Worker said this photograph was brought 
to them by German seamen. The truth is that this photograph has 
been, since the spring of 1937, in the files of the G. P. U. in Moscow. 

The publication of this picture by the Daily Worker and by other 
Communist papers appearing in the United States, shows that this 
material was sent to them straight from Moscow. It appeared 3 
months after my break with the Communist International. 

Mr. Matthews. When was your break with the Connnunist Inter- 
national ? 

Mr. Krebs. December 1937 and beginning of January 1938. 



8482 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Matthews. So in 1938 the Daily Worker stated that it got its 
information concerning you from German seamen ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Then in 1941, 3 years later, where did the Daily 
Worker say that it got its information concerning you ? 

Mr. Krebs. It is stated here they got the information from Scan- 
dinavian seamen. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, the source of this information was 
German seamen in 1938 and Scandinavian seamen in 1941? 

Mr. Krebs. The reason for that is the Comintern's attitude toward 
Hitler has since changed and it would not do to give German anti- 
Fascists as the source since they had actually an alliance with Ger- 
man Fascists. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, what were your exact relationships with the 
Gestapo — will you please state those briefly ? 

Mr, Krebs. I first same in contact with the Gestapo while doing 
underground work against Hitler in Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. About what year was that ? 

Mr. Krebs. I was sent to Germany in the fall of 1933, the year 
Hitler came to power, to reorganize the seamen, dock workers, and 
river workers against Hitler.. 

Mr. Matthews. Wlio sent you? 

Mr. Krebs. After some time of underground work I was betrayed 
into the hands of the Gestapo by a Nazi spy in the Communist 
organizations. I was arrested in November 1933 and after 8 or 9 
months in concentration camps I was sentenced to 13 years for high 
treason by Nazi courts. 

My first contact with the Gestapo came about during weeks of 
questioning in Gestapo headquarters in Hambui^ and Berlin. 

During the 31/2 years of my imprisonment in various Nazi prisons 
I was often called to Gestapo headquarters for further questioning. 
Later, at the end of 1936, I received througli a G. P. IT. man working 
in the Gestapo — his name was Rudolph Heitman, the order that the 
Communist International Bureau in Copenhagen had singled me out 
for an attempt to work inside the Gestapo in favor of the Com- 
munist Intei-national — that is the Soviet Government. As a loyal 
comrade I accepted this order and did my best to cai-ry it out. 

I began with asking the Nazi guards for Nazi literature. I asked 
for the book, Mein Kampf. I made notations on the margin of 
Mein Kampf, knowing that these would be read later by Gestapo 
agents. I wrote pro-Nazi notes and dropped them as if by mistake 
in the prison yard. The guards would pick them up and read them. 
I did everything in general to try to convince the Gestapo that I 
had broken with communism and was moving toward the Hitler 
faith. 

All this was in line with Communist policy of placing its own men 
in the police departments of non-Soviet nations. 

After 4 or 5 months of such maneuvering I was called again to 
Gestapo headquarters, this time not to be questioned but in order 
to be tested. The Gestapo wanted to find how far my break with 
communism and my drifting toward the Nazi movement was sin- 
cere. I passed a great number of their tests. Some of them were 
quite tricky. I convinced them finally through the collaboration of 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §483 

one of tlio leadin<j; men in Copenhagen — this man's name was Richard 
Jensen. Richard Jensen was the leading treasurer of the Comintern 
headquarters for the west with its offices in Copenhagen. He knew 
of my assignment to worm my way into the Getapo — in the head- 
quarters of the Gestapo under the eyes of one of the leaders of the 
Gestapo's foreign divisions. 

This Gestapo leader was an inspector wdiose name was Paul Kraus. 

I wrote a letter to Jensen. The text of the letter made it seem 
that 1 had betni released from a Nazi prison and was hiding in Ger- 
many and I asked Jensen to send money. This letter was sent off by 
the Gestapo while I was still kept in prison. Jensen knew what game 
was being played and he promptly sent American money, several hun- 
dred dollars, to a fictitious address in Germany. The fact that a 
simple letter from me could draw a considerable sum of money from 
Connnunist headquarters convinced the Gestapo that my contact with 
the Comintern was still good and that my break with the Comintern 
was sincere. 

After that I was drawn into the active work of the foreign division 
of the Gestapo. I remained there for about a total of 5 months doing 
all I could to find out secrets and the working methods of the Gestapo 
in order to surrender this information to the Comintern and the 
G. P. U., which at that time were still fighting the Nazi organizations. 

■Sir. INIatthews. During these months of your imprisonment in Ger- 
many, how frequently were you in the Gestapo headquarters in Berlin 
and Hamburgh 

]\Ir. Krebs. During the first 6 or 7 months of my imprisonment I 
was at least twice and sometimes three times a week in the Gestapo 
offices for que^stioning. In the following 31/2 years my calls to the 
Gestapo office slowed down to about one a month or so. But later 
on in 1936 and 1937, 1 spent weeks in the headquarters of the Gestapo's 
foreign divisicm. day after day from morning until evening. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you have an opportunity to learn the methods 
of work and the objectives of the foreign division of the Gestapo dur- 
ing these periods which you spent there? 

Mr. Krebs. I had that opportunity, yes; particularly since I entered 
the Gestapo offices from the first to the last with the intention of col- 
lecting all possible information in order to make it available for the 
fight against Hitler and against Hitler's Gestapo. 

Mr. AIatthews. You had been trained for years to make ^iuch ob- 
servations and to gather such information, had you not? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. Where are tlie foreign offices of the Gestapo 
located ? 

Mr. Krkbs. The national offices were located at Berlin in a pahice 
called the Prinz Albrecht, located on a short street in Berlin's Gov- 
ernment district, known as the Prinz Albrecht Strasse. The execu- 
'tive offices, that is the action offices of the foreign division of the 
Gestapo, however, were located in Hamburg in a building known as 
the Stadthaus, in the center of Hamburg. 

Mr. Matthews. Why are the offices of the Gestapo located in Ham- 
burg? 

jSIr. Krebs. For the same reason which aU foreign divisions of 
Nazi organizations were centei*ed in Hamburg; namely, because Ham- 



3484 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

bui-g was tlie largest port of the European continent. From Ham- 
burg sailed an average of a thousand German ships each month to all 
parts of the world, so communications to other countries were much 
easier, much more direct from Hamburg than from Berlin. For the 
same reason the Communist International has its maritime and com- 
munication headquarteis for over 10 years also in Hamburg. 

Mr. Matthews. AVill you please state in general what the work of 
the foreign division of the Gestapo is as carried on in these executive 
offices in Hamburg? 

Mr. Krebs. The foreign division of the Gestapo is that part which 
does espionage and police work in favor of the German Government 
of the German frontiers. It cooperates with the foreign division 
of a great number of official Nazi organizations — foreign divisions 
of the Nazi Party. 

It cooperates with the Military Intelligence of the German High 
Command, and it also cooperates with the political police systems 
in Japan, Italy, and General Franco's Spain. 

Mr. Matthews. In other words, is it the work of the foreign divi- 
sion of the Gestapo to compile the most elaborate information con- 
cerning every country in the world? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. In watching the officials of the foreign division 
at work in the Hamburg offices, I learned first, that the aim of the 
Hitler movement was really world domination because there was 
not a single country on the map which did not interest the foreign 
division of the Gestapo. 

The Gestapo charted every item of every phase of life of eveiy 
country in the world. I can give you a few examples. 

There was one large room solely reserved for card files containing 
names of citizens of foreign countries, classified as "enemies," 
"friends," and "residents," and in the different classes each card con- 
tained the personal history of the individual, his political affiliations, 
his prominence in certain business or certain organizations, or his 
prominence in cultural life. It included Government officials, police 
officials, teachers, newspapennen, trade-union men. And tlie purpose 
of these card files was to have a constant barometer on the strength 
of the morale in other nations, and of weaknesses among the popula- 
tion of another nation; of elements which could, in case of emergency, 
in case of war or intense political campaigns of another nature, be 
brought into the harness for the Nazi movement ; and a list of those 
which should at once be seized by the Gestapo and interned in case 
of a Gennan invasion. 

Mr. MATTHEW^s. Was there such an elaborate card-file system on 
Americans ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir ; there was. 

Mr. Matthews. In these offices of the foreign division of the 
Gestapo ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; there was. It concentrated on the American citi- 
zens of the eastern and western seaboard. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, in a document obtained by this 
committee from the personal effects of G. Wilhelm Kunze, which has 
already been released to the public, there appears the following instruc- 
tions of the German-American Bund : 

Record cards containing personal information about friends, enemies, mer- 
chants, politicians, associations, association officers, and similar information 



UN-AMKltlCAN PKOl'AdANDA ACTIVITIES 8485 

;ib<mt those wlu>in we sliouUl kimw, tn he iiindc (uit in duiilicMlt' cxiu-tly as those 
for nioinbcrs, patiniis. and youth voniinandcr nii'mticrs and suhniitlcd nmntldy. 

One eanl is to be retained by the unit or braneli directorate and the other is to 
be sent to the national exeeutive eonannuttee. 

YeUdW cards Ix-arinji the h'tter "F" are intended for enemies; where they are 
(ieiman a ■"D"' is Ic be inserted at tlie top. Tliey are not to be used for Jews. 

Lifjlit-blue cards bearinj;- Ilic letter "'J" are for Jews. 

Mr. Kfobs, was it jtist such a cai'd-iiulex systoiii which was kept by 
the foieian division of the Gestapo in H.unburg^ 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did yon know of the existence of these instructions 
to the Gernian-Anierican Btiiid before yesterday i' 

Mr. Krebs. No; I did not; but 1 knew that Nazi organizations in 
all countries are harnessed to this (jestapo machine; that the Gestapo 
utilizes any form of German organization — German business houses, 
sieamshi}) lines, air lines, and so forth — as a news-gathering and 
espionage auxiliary. 

Mr. jVIatthews. Could there be any doubt in your mind that such 
information compiled b}^ the German-American Bund in the United 
States would eventually find it way to this card file in the Gestapo 
headquarters in Hambm-g? 

Mr. Krebs. Xot "eventually," but immediately as it is gathered. I 
should add there is a special list kei)t by the Gestapo's foreign division 
of Americans who traveled abroad, particularly Americans traveling 
on the European Continent^ 

Mr. Starxes. Was there any particular reason for that, Mr. Krebs? 

]\Ir. Krebs. The compiling of names of Americans? 

]Mr. Starxes. Yes ; traveling abroad. 

Mr. Krebs. The theory is that a large percentage or large propor- 
tion of Americans traveling abroad are naturalized citizens of America 
who have originally come from Germany or some of the countries 
bordering on Germany, and also the theory is that these people on 
returning to the Continent as tourists for vacations will logicall}^ look 
uj) their friends and relatives in the old country. 

The Gestapo also compiles a complete register of citizens of Euro- 
pean countries who have contacts in America, which is then utilized 
for the sending of propaganda to this countiT, not in large packages, 
but in millions of small pieces of propaganda which is to be passed 
fi'om family to family and friend to friend. 

That list is also utilized to put, if necessary, friends and rehitives 
of naturtdized Americans under duress if Germany when the time 
comes when the Nazis and the Gestapo will try to force these Ameri- 
can citizens to do something in Hitler's favor, and also will prevent 
German-Americans who are naturalized American citizens in doing 
active work against Hitler in this country, since it is always brought 
to their memory, "You have friends and relatives in Germany so 
keep C|uiet or work with us.'' 

Mr. Starxes. Might not those names and those contacts also be 
utilized to obtain information about the industrial life of America, 
her capacity to organize and to produce for defense, and might not 
also those contacts be used as a form of es})ion!ige in that connection 
in order to check upon the defense efforts of America and the defense 
secrets of America^ 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. There is a special subdepartment in the foreign 
division dealing with wjiat is called in Germany "Industrial Reports 



8486 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Department." This department has its special schools and concen- 
trates on Germans in America and Americans of German origin, who 
are trained mechanics, engineers, draftsmen; also newspapermen and 
teachers — that is, any likely person working in one of the vital indus- 
trial or cultural establishments in tlie United States. 

Mr, Matthews. Mr. Krebs, I show you a photostatic copy of a 
cablegram which was dispatched from Berlin to the Transocean News 
in the United States. This cablegram is in German. Will you please 
give a translation of that cablegram ? 

Mr. Krebs. This cablegram from Berlin to the Nazi news agency 
in this country has the following text : 

Urgently require details about the personality of Curran and the role played 
by his seamen's union. Please verify. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you another cablegram from Berlin to 
Transocean News in this country, which text is also in German and 
I will ask you to translate that. 

Mr. Krebs. "Urgently require details on Curran's latest declara- 
tion." 

Mr. Starnes. Now, Dr. Matthews, were those cablegrams among 
the records that the committee obtained possession of from Trans- 
ocean News? 

Mr. Matthews. From the files of Transocean News itself. 

Mr. Starnes. I see. You might identify those by dates. _ 

Mr. Matthews. There are identified in a previous publication of 
the committee by dates. 

Mr. Starnes. All right. 

Mr. Matthews. I would like to ask the witness if such organiza- 
tions having headquarters in Germany, such organizations as the 
Transocean News, have any relationship to the Gestapo. 

Mr, Krebs. Yes; the Transocean News was formed to supply the 
people of North, Central, and South America with the Nazi version 
of the world's news. In other words, with propaganda, not readily 
recognized as such, which is the sign of good propaganda. The Trans- 
ocean News was enabled to compete successfully with American news 
services by the simple method of being completely subsidized by the 
Nazi Government and supplying the news free of charge to the Amer- 
ican press. 

The officers of the Transocean News are used by the Gestapo not as 
a Gestapo organization as such, but in a manner that each office, as in 
each other German office of a business, of a consulate or German or- 
ganization — there are at least one or two Gestapo men on the job seeing 
that instructions from Berlin are carried out and keeping watch on 
unreliable elements in these organizations. 

Mr. Matthews. Would there be any doubt whatever in your mind 
about Transocean News being a front for the Gestapo ? 

Mr. Krebs. Absolutely none. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, in line with the questions which the chairman 
suggested, is that true of all other organizations which have their head- 
quarters in Germany today under the Nazi regime and function 
abroad ? 

Mr. Krebs. Any organization of Germans existing abroad which 
does not accept complete Nazi Party and Gestapo domination is 
smashed. 



U:^-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8487 

Mr. Stakxes. Is that true with reference to German-owned or Ger- 
man-controlled air lines? 

Mr. Krers That is true. 

Mr. Starnes. Reojardless of whatever country they are located in? 

Mr. Krers. Yes, sir. 

jNIr. Starkes. Or operate in ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is true. Any employee sent out from Germany to 
take a position in any German business house or transportation system 
abroad, must pass the Gestapo headquarters and have the okay of the 
Gestapo before he is allowed to take that position. 

Mr. Starnes. And that would apply particularly to German-owned 
and operated air lines in South America? 

Mr. Krers. Exactly. 

Mr. jNIatthews. Isit correct to say that when Transocean News is 
required to send information to Berlin on the personality of Joe Cur- 
ran and his role in the National JMaritime Union, and to send informa- 
tion on a speech which he made, that such information is desired by the 
Gestapo ? 

Mr. Krebs. The significance of this to me is that the Gestapo con- 
siders Joseph Curran, of the National IMaritime Union of America, 
as a A-aluable instrument in its campaign to obstruct aid to Britain, 
and also in the campaign to spread the spirit of defeatism in this 
country. 

Mr. MATTHE^vs. Now, Mr, Krebs, is there a division or a section 
in the foreign office of the Gestapo which has the task of carefully 
reading foreign publications? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir; there is a large hall on the sixth floor of the 
foreign division building in Hamburg, where about 100 people, who 
are trained in languages, Gestapo agents, do nothing but scan every 
page and every item in every important foreign newspaper. And I 
have heard it said by important officials of the department, including 
Inspector Kraus, that much valuable information about conditions 
and doings in foreign nations, which Germany or Russia would guard 
as military secrets, are culled by the Gestapo right from the Ameri- 
can press in regard to the location of new Army training camps, the 
sailing of warships for maneuvers, the establishment of new defense 
factories or the transformation of factories from consumer goods to 
defense products. All of these items are clipped out by the Gestapo 
press information bureau and pieced together and forms a very valu- 
able portion of the sum total of their information about other coun- 
tries. 

Mr. Matthews. When, for example, a magazine of a scientific or 
technical character in the United States publishes elaborate data on 
military equipment, would such information be considered of great 
value to the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. Of course it would be at once picked up by one of the 
thousands of Gestapo agents in this country and either sent to the 
nearest German Consulate or Embassy, or be directly sent to Ger- 
many by some communication route. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Would the publication of such military informa- 
tion be considered treasonable in Germany? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, for example, yesterday in the New York Times 
I saw an item that two American panzer divisions had been com- 



3488 UN-AMEKICAN I'KOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

pletely organized and equipped and that these new panzer divisions 
were going to have maneuvers somewhere in Tennessee. The date 
was given, the phice of the maneuvers, was given, the numerical 
strength of these new panzer divisions was given right on the front 
page of the Times. 

I believe if a German editor did this his head would be off within 
3 days for high treason, 

Mr. Matthews. Well, that point I am getting at is, one, as to the 
usefulness which the Gestapo finds in the freedom of the press of 
this country. Have you heard remarks among Gestapo people, high 
executives concerning the ease with which they obtain such infor- 
mation in the United States? 

Mr. Krehs. Yes. Once I heard the remark by Inspector Kraus 
in German — I will translate it : ''The lack of discipline of the demo- 
cratic press is fodder for us" — free food for us. 

I might mention that the Gestapo did not get one-tenth from 
British newspapers in the form of military and industrial informa- 
tion as they could get from American newspapers. 

Mr. Matthew^s, And is that also true of American magazines as 
well as newspapers, is such information obtained from magazines? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. sir; from your very popular magazines such as 
Life Magazine, as Time Magazine. They are collected in complete 
files at Gestapo headquarters. 

Every photograph of a new Army bomber, of a new warship, of a 
training camp, of a new factory is carefully analyzed. The Gestapo 
has apparatus where they have a full-page photograph in Life and 
they will cut that full page photograph into 10 or 12 sections and 
each section is enlarged to twice the size of this newspaper and then 
ihese enlarged sections are pieced together again and handed over 
to the engineering department of the military intelligence or of the 
central industrial council of the Nazi Party, to be checked on its use- 
fulness for any of the German services. 

Mr. Matthews. You stated a moment ago that the headquarters 
of the foreign division of the Gestapo was located in Hamburg, 
that is the executive offices, because that was a port out of which 
radiated ■ 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mattheavs. The agents of the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr, Matthews. In the guise of German seamen? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr, Matthews. Now, will you please elaborate on that statement? 

Mr. Krebs. Years before Hitler actually came to ])ower, beginning 
in 1930 and 1931, the Nazi Party made tremendous efforts at the 
complete Nazi domination of the crews of German ships. I know 
this phase of the Nazi fight for power in great detail, since I was in 
the leadership of the Gommunist organizations in shipping. 

By 1923 already, practically all the crews of the large German 
liners were organized wnthin the Nazi Party and the Storm Troops. 
They organized a special marine section of the Storm Troops organi- 
zation which is called the Marine Storm. 

After Hitler came to power any German seaman who had the 
slightest political blemish from the Nazi point of view on his record, 



UN-AM EKICAN 1'H01'A(;AN1)A ACTHITIES 8489 

was not ]ioniiitt(Hl to <ro to soa on Ijoard Gorman ships. The men per- 
mitted to sail on (Jei-man ships had to be 100 percent trnstworthy, 
and even amon<>- these 100 percent Nazi crews were special Nazi 
units called in P^n<j:lish "points of support," and also in an imier or- 
ganization 01- micleiis of ti'ained Nazis workinij for the Gestapo direct. 
By UK]') the ft)reiyii division of the (irestapo, that is, the marine 
department of the foreign division of the Gestapo, moved into a 
large building of its own which is called the Stellahaus, right on the 
watei'front of Hamburg — a modern 10-story building devoted solely 
for the maritime — the connnunications end of the foreign division of 
the Gestapo. 

Mr. Matthews. May I iliterrupt you there at that point? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Ah'. Matthews. "Was the seamen's organization at that time taken 
out from under the control of the Labor Front in Germany and placed 
directly under the control of the (jestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. In 1935, a few months after the forma- 
tion of the foreign division, the former trade union of German sea- 
men, which nuiintained the name of "trade unicm," after the Nazis 
took over and smashed the old Socialist trade unions in Germany 
which had been under the jurisdiction of Dr. Robert Ley of the Ger- 
man Labor Front, in Jul}' or August of 1935, this wdiole seamen's sec- 
tion of the German Labor Front was taken out of Dr. Ley's jurisdic- 
tion and placed under the direct jurisdiction of the Gestapo. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, would you say that ])rior to the outbreak of 
the present war the principal contacts of the Gestapo with the United 
States were through the organized German seamen under the direc- 
tion of the Gestapo^ 

Mr. Krp:bs. It was through German seamen a large part of coastal 
espionage was carried on by trained Nazis serving on German ships. 

In the fall of 1935 there was not a single overseas ship in the Ger- 
man-American marine which did not have in its crew Nazi photo- 
graphic specialists whose sole task was to carry on photographic 
surveys of the coast lines of foreign nations, photograph harbor en- 
trances, case docks, shore fortifications, shipyards and so forth. 

There was a si)ecial department of the Gestapo devoted to the 
analysis of this material. The results were astonishing. There was 
practically no port in the whole world which; was not in the Gestapo 
offices in the form of cf)mplete photographic surveys brought in by 
thousands of Nazi seamen-photographers. 

Mr. ]\L\rTiH:ws. Did the Gestapo attempt to place Nazi seamen on 
non-German-owned boats? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; that was systematically done as well as on Ameri- 
can ships. 

Mr. ^Iattiiews. Do 5'ou know whether that attempt was successful 
in any measure oi- not ? 

Mr. Krebs. It was successful in some measure, particularly where 
the Nazis detailed to this work succeeded in entering this countrv as 
quota inunigrants and obtained first citizenship pai)ers, and wdiere 
they were then in a ])osition to enter one of the American dockers' or 
seamen's unions and become crew members aboard American ships. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not some Gestapo agents 
were sent to the United States in the guise of political refugees? 



8490 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; this group forms a veiy large group of people 
used by the Gestapo. Some are trained Nazis posing as political 
refugees, but many are actually former political prisoners from Ger- 
many whose families are kept as hostages and who were sent out 
to work for the Gestapo in foreign countries, including America, 
under the threat that they write monthly reports and if the reports 
do not come in, "your family will be arrested ; if our checking shows 
that your reports contain misleading information your family will 
also be arrested." 

These people, who being in some measure professional anti-Nazis, 
find it particularly easy to be accepted by the public of democratic 
countries, since they have really an anti-Nazi record and act not as 
Nazis but out of deadly fear of the Nazis throwing their wives and 
children into concentration camps or murdered. 

Mr. Starnes. In other words the German Government, acting in 
conjunction with the Gestapo, sends political refugees, so-called, into 
the various countries who' have something of an anti-Nazi record — 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Because the state of public opinion throughout the 
world generally, is against Germany and they feel by that means they 
will get favorable entree ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And they use them for that purpose ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. It has gone so far that to my experience it was 
impossible for anyone to be released from a Nazi concentration camp 
unless he signed a pledge that he would serve the Gestapo. The great 
majority were given jobs in German industries to spy on anti-Nazis 
in (xerman industries. 

They had to write weekly reports, but anyone who had any sort of 
experience in travel or had a family or friends in outside nations, he 
was used for foreign work provided he had a family or some sort of 
financial reserve which could be kept in Germany as a guaranty for 
his loyalty. 

Mr. Starnes. As a usual rule no one was let out of a concentration 
camp or out of prison without first the Nazis obtaining from that per- 
son a pledge that he would serve the Gestapo when released wherever 
sent? 

Mr. Krebs. Anyone who would not sign the pledge had no chance 
of being released at all. 

Mr. Matthews. Had you yourself spent a good deal of your early 
childhood traveling throughout the world? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; I was sent by the Gestapo to Denmark and had 
contacts with Gestapo couriers in Belgium and in Holland. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it a fact, that you had had much experience 
in world travel ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; I traveled much before and the Gestapo knew it 
and I was a seaman by profession. 

Mr. Matthews. And that was the reason you were then permitted 
to go outside of Germany for the work that you did ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; but they had my wife and child in Germany as 
hostages. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the German sea- 
men's homes in the United States in such cities as New Orleans, 
Philadelphia, San Francisco, and New York? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8491 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. There were from Republican times in Germany 
a number of German seamen's homes in American ports, in North 
American ports and also in Latin American ports. The best known 
were in New York, Philadelphia, New Orleans, San Francisco, Monte- 
video, and Buenos Aires. 

These German seamen's homes served as shipping centers for Ger- 
man seamen. When a German captain needed a crew he went to the 
consul and the consul went to the manager of the German sailor's 
home and lie supplied the men. The}' were usually in charge of a 
seamen's chaplain — seamen missionaries. 

After Hitler came to power all these managers of German seamen's 
homes were recalled to Germany and trained Nazis were sent out to 
take charge of these seamen's homes and were in control of the ship- 
ping out of German sailors to foreign ports. 

The result was that anyone who was known as an anti-Nazi or 
who was not willing to work with the Nazis had no chance of obtain- 
ing a berth through these German shipping offices. 

On the other hand, the Nazi managers took care that trained Nazis 
were put on ships which were regarded to be on strategic runs — that 
is, sailing to strategic ports. 

Mr. Matthews. Were many German citizens sent abroad by the 
Gestapo and particularly to the United States, with instructions to 
obtain their first papers as soon as possible ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. Whenever the Gestapo could find someone who 
showed enthusiasm for this sort of task, they usually sent him out 
and in their own words it was "kinderspeil" — it was child's play to 
get Germans who came to America as quota immigrants to take out 
first papers and then they were eligible for work m any of the key 
industries, in shipping, and also could easily enter the United States 
Army as volunteers, could enter the United States Coast Guard as a 
means of obtaining citizenship in 3 years instead of 5 years, which 
was just incidental, but important work aside from their general 
work for the Nazis in the Gestapo. 

Mr. Starnes. You said it was easy for them to do that. What I 
want to know is whether you know whether or not they were sent 
here with instructions to do that ^ 

Mr. Krebs. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. You have heard discussions along those lines? 

Mr. Krebs. I was personally questioned by Gestapo inspectors on 
the possibility of getting men into the Coast Guard. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean that a German coming into this country, 
coming over here and taking out his first papers, could get into the 
United States Army and then could obtain full citizenship in 3 years 
because he was in the Army? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Instead of the customary 5 years? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir; that was the custom. 

Mr. Matthews. And that situation w^as utilized by the Gestai)o? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir; utilized ever since 1935. 

Mr. Matthews. And the same was true of the Coast Guard: is 
that correct? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. The same relations ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 



8492 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

_ Mr. Starnes. How did these seamen's homes operate in this connec- 
tion where unions had been establislied in these union halls? 

Mr. Krebs. The Nazi seamen coming to this country ? 

Mr. Starmes. Yes. 

Mr. Krebs. They usually managed to become crew members of non- 
American ships sailing from American ports, particularly the Scan- 
dinavian merchant fleets were well penetrated. Many Dutch ships 
had Nazis in their crews and some Belgian ships — some of the largest 
Belgian ships were manned by, oh, I would say, over 20 percent by 
German Nazis. Many of them joined the American seamen's union. 

Mr. Matthews. You mean the National Maritime Union? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; the National Maritime Union and also the 
westrcoast union, but the easiest mark was the National Maritime 
Union, since it was only necessary for them to act as Communists in 
order to be readily accepted. And the policy of the Gestapo 
in labor unions, since the fact exists that the Gestapo, the Nazi 
itself could not operate as a Nazi fraction in a union, is that the Nazis 
in the American labor unions will propose a Communist policy as long 
as such Communist policy concurs with the policy followed by the 
Nazi propaganda machine. 

Mr. Matthews. And Gestapo agents will join the Communist frac- 
tions of such a union instead of trying to set up a Nazi fraction ? 

Mr. Krebs. They will not start by joining a Communist fraction. 
They will enter the union as simple seamen and by talking radically, 
by taking part in the little, partial strikes against bad food or for 
over-time payment, attract the attention of Communist fraction 
scouts, wdio are always on the lookout for new recruits, and any young 
Nazi that obtains a berth aboard an American ship under the pre- 
tension that he is becoming an American citizen, and talks radically, 
will sooner or later be approached by the Communist organizer. 

The Gestapo tactics is not to ask to be admitted but to act in a way 
that will bring the other fellow to come and ask the Gestapo man, 
"Please come inside and help us.' 

Mr. Starnes. And you know of your own personal knowledge that 
Gestapo agents have joined the National Maritime Union for the 
purpose of obtaining information and for the purpose of creating 
trouble in the American merchant marine? 

^Ir. Krebs. I know of two who were sent to this country and ac- 
tually did this work. One was Kurt Bailich. Kurt Bailich was a 
seaman, German seaman, active for the Gestapo already since 1933. 
He was sent over by the Gestapo in 1935 to join the East Coast Sea- 
men's Union, I believe — I don't know if the National Maritime Union 
existed at that time. 

Mr. Starnes. Anyway, the predecessor of the National Maritime 
Union ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. It was the union before that that he 
joined. The Gestapo received reports from him as late as 1937. 
These reports were shown to me by Gestapo inspectors to show me 
the nature of the work that they expected from me. 

These reports were sent from New Orleans. Another man, an- 
other Nazi operating from American ships, was a man named August 
Kastner. Kastner was a former Communist who turned to Gestaj^o 
work soon after Hitler came to power. He was one of the Gestapo 
couriers aboard the German liner Westemland to New York. In 



r.\ AMERICAN PUOI»AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8493 

VX\{j, or the be<2;iiiinng' of 1937, he left the shij) in New York to con- 
centrate on work in American seamen's organizations. Usually the 
Nazi seamen actino- for the (iestapo do not jump at once with both 
feet into the American trade-union work without first having gone 
through a school of smaller work, serving aboard German ships, 
serving as couriers, serving as members of the harbor-control stations, 
and so forth. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you please describe what the nature and 
duties of a harbor control bureau are? 

Mr. Krehs. The harbor control bureaus of the Gestapo were started 
during the Spanish civil war. At that time Germany made every 
ell'ort to prevent the shii)ment of food and war materials to Loyalist 
Spain, and in order to check the movement of such shipments, the 
Gestapo organized observation groups in many important European 
ports, particularly in the Scandinavian countries, Belgium, Holland, 
and France. • 

Nazi seamen were sent to those ports under the guise of seamen, 
but they did not ship out but remained in that port engaged in 
nothing else but to check on ship movements, nature of ship cargoes, 
and so forth. 

This work was done in great detail. Each harbor control, pos- 
sibly, had a couple of men running around the docks photographing 
labels and the inscriptions on packing cases to determine the factories 
which had sent out these goods. 

They walked aboard ships during the lunch hour in the guise of 
jobless seamen coming to bum a meal, and in conversation with the 
crew tried to find out the destination of the ship, the composition of 
the crew; and wherever possible, attempts were made to contact the 
wireless operators of the ship. 

All this information was forwarded to the Gestapo, and the Gestapo 
used it in counteractions to prevent such shipment. 

This mode of harbor supervision was so successful during the 
Spanish civil war that it became a world-wide feature of the mari- 
time service of the Gestapo, particularly where the press of the coun- 
try does not rejiort in detail on ship movements. 

Mr. Matthews. Was particular stress laid upon making contact 
with the radiomen aboard ships? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. AVhat v ould be the usefulness of radiomen aboard 
ships to the Gestapo? Will you describe that? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, froin the very beginning the original efforts 
to conti-ol the radio personnel aboard merchant ships, politically, was 
made by the Comnnniists. They did that with some success, and 
the Gestapo became interested in this also during 1935. It ail 
started with the marching of the German Army into the Rhine- 
land. It coincided with the organization of the foreign division 
of the Gestapo. 

Gestapo inspectors singled out Communist prisoners in German 
concentration camps who liad had maritime experience and questioned 
them as to organization methods, lines of approach, program of de- 
mand, and so forth, for radio personnel aboard the sihps of various 
nations. 

Aboard the German merchant marine there was not one radio 
operator who was not a member of the Nazi Party, and radio opera- 



8494 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

tors aboard German ships were used to relay radio messages of 
confidential material gathered in a foreign country by Nazi spies. 

For example, material gathered by Gestapo people in this country 
in New York, would not be relayed directly by short-wave station 
from American territory to Germany, 

Before the war broke out information was given to the radio 
operators of Gei'man ships, and that information was radioed to 
Germany shortly after the ship left port. In this way mobile 
communication stations, which could not be traced, were available 
for that work. 

Considerable efforts have been made to penetrate — to harness — 
radio operators on foreign ships to the Gestapo apparatus, with 
only minor success. 

Ml'. Starnes. Do you know^ where the foreign offices of the Gestapo 
were located in some of the countries outside of Germany? 

Mr. Keebs. Well, I know the address for Denmark, 'and I know 
the address for Belgium. 

Mr. Starnes. You know those two? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. You did not know it for Italy ? 

Mr. Krebs. The Danish interests 

Mr. Starnes. For Italy — the Gestapo address in Italy? 

Mr. Krebs. No ; I don't know. 

Mr. Starnes. Or Spain? 

Mr. Krebs. I don't know. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know in the United States? 

Mr. I^JiEBS. Well, they need no direct addresses there, because there 
is police union, political police union, between the political police 
of Germany, Italy, and Japan and the members of the original Comin- 
tern pact. They interchange officials. Italian officials of the Italian 
Ovra are active in German Gestapo headquarters, and German Gestapo 
officials are active in Italian political police headquarters — the same 
thing with Japan. 

I have known of cases where German anti-Nazi seamen sailed on 
British ships, and these British ships came to Italy and Gestapo people 
came aboard to take these German anti-Nazis off who were later 
spirited from Italy to Germany, which show^ed me that the political 
police of Italy and Japan and Germany keep lists of people wanted 
by the German Gestapo, and checks on the identity of people coming 
in on Italian or foreign ships in the hope of finding a wanted man 
once in awhile. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether any such working relationship 
exists now between Germany and Russia, since the pact of 1939 ? 

Mr. Krebs. I don't know if such a corporation exists now, but I 
wouldn't risk going aboard a ship to Vladivostok. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know, Mr. Krebs, to what extent the courier 
system of communications has been supplanted by this short-wave 
radio method of communications, since the outbreak of the war? 

Mr. Krebs. In the Gestapo schools, which exist in every large Ger- 
man city, a special course is devoted to the training of future Gestapo 
agents in methods of communication. 

The usual method used before the war broke out was the courier 
method, which was taken over by the Nazis in whole from the Com- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8495 

munists. It ^vas the placing of Nazis on German or foreign ships 
as crew members who, in foreign ports, received their materiah 

As soon as the ship left port the agent who had given them the 
material notified by a short message the home port, and as soon as 
that ship entered the German port, a man from the Gestapo office was 
aboard to take care of that material so that the seamen carrying such 
illegal material would not have a chance to do anything wrong with 
it except tlirow it overboard on the high seas. 

But in cases where information is very urgent and cannot wait for 
courier service, or where courier service is interrupted, the radio way 
of communication is used. 

One important item in the communication sources is a warning 
to Gestapo agents to beware of using fixed short wave sending sta- 
tions — not to establish short-wave senders in one department, in one 
house, and leave it there, but to make everything mobile and port- 
able — change it from day to day. 

One of the methods advocated for seaport cities was to get pos- 
session of a number of small yachts, motor launches, fishing craft 
ostensibly under private ownership of Germans who are not open 
Nazis, and that such short-wave messages are best sent, not from 
ashore but a few miles out from shore at sea, since then a detection 
of the station is impossible, since the boat or the yacht or the launch 
after sending the message comes back into port. 

Mr. Starnes. By the way, I didn't understand you thoroughly a 
moment ago about the method of the Gestapo operating in this 
country where they had clearing houses, general clearing houses of 
information, and so forth and so on. What city or cities do they 
operate from chiefly here in the United States^ 

Mr. Krebs. Before the outbreak of the war it was New York, be- 
cause New York offered the best communications with German3\ 

Mr. Starnes. More contacts with the German Nation were made 
through the port of New York than elsewhere ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is correct: but since the outbreak of the war, 
since the disruption of the North Atlantic communications lines, 
there is every indication that the clearing house has been moved to 
San Francisco, since the communications mostly go over Russia 
and there is comparatively no disturbance in shipping and mails 
from the West. 

Mr. Starnes. From the West to Russia? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; when, for example, I read or heard that a man 
like Captain Wiedemann was appointed to the German consul general 
in San Francisco, a post which was before him taken in by a very 
minor Nazi official, and San Francisco was not important from the 
point of view of the German Empire, but when suddenly AViede- 
mann, one of the best-trained and most-trusted men in the German 
diplomatic service, is given such a seemingly small post as consul 
in San Francisco, it means something. 

Mr. Starnes. Is it your experience and your information, based 
on your past life and your contacts with both organizations, and 
knowing the situation as you do here, that now, since the war has 
broken out, the more effective, or the most effective part of their 
operations have been along the west coast? 

I am speaking now both of the Nazi and Communist Parties. 

62626 — 41— vol. 14 22 



8496 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs. I heard in the foreign division of the Gestapo, toward 
the end of 1937, repeated conversations on this country. It started 
when Hitler mentioned America — it started with Hitler's paragraphs 
on America in the book Mein Kampf. 

The Gestapo people regarded America already in 1937 as a hostile 
country and an enemy country. 

Mr. 'Starnes. As far back as 1937 they referred to America as 
being a hostile country or an enemy country? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. The same as they regarded France, 
Belgium, Poland, Czechoslovakia as enemy countries, and from their 
conversations that I heard I had the impression that in the Gestapo 
brains the idea was alive that in case of a war it would be less a 
question of open military clash between America and Germany but it 
would be between Japan and America and that, therefore, a large 
part of the Nazi etfort and Gestapo effort in this country would be 
concentrated on the west coast; also because the largest naval bases 
are there. 

The bulk of the Navy is kept on the west coast. Particular interest 
was shown by the foreign division for the Hawaiian Islands, partic- 
ularly Pearl Harbor and Honolulu. 

Mr. Starnes. That was, of course, because they regarded Hawaii 
as the key to the Pacific Ocean and the key to the American defense 
system on the west coast ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. It was felt that any long-distance operation of 
the American Navy would not start out from San Pedro or San 
Diego, but would have their last American base in Hawaii for actiorx 
toward Japan. 

Mr. Matthews. In the Gestapo or Nazi conception of war, does 
the war begin only when shots are fired or teiritory is actually 
invaded ? 

Mr. Krebs. No; that is the democratic conception of war. 

Mr. Matthews. What is their conception? 

Mr. Krebs. The democratic nations define war as a war which 
starts when soldiers start marching, but not in tlie totalitarian mind, 
and particularly the Gestapo mind. With them the war starts when 
they send their first agent across another country's frontier with a 
secret mission. 

Mr. Starnes. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Krebs: Based upon 
your experience and your contacts with the Gestapo and Nazi 
regimes, is it your opinion that a great deal of their work is carried 
on, their propaganda work and their subversive work is carried on 
through the consular agencies in this countrv? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. They make use of their consular agents for propa- 
ganda purposes and for the acquisition and accumulation and for- 
warding or transmission of information vital to the Nazi Gov- 
ernment ? 

Mr. KRf:BS. You see, the Nazi movement is, as the Communist 
movement, divided in two, I would say, lines of progress. One is 
comparatively open and legal and the other is completely under- 
ground and illegal. 

The distribution of propaganda and agitation, anything which 
tends to influence public opinion, belongs to the so-called legal por- 
tion of their work and is carried on largely through the consulates 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8497 

and t]iroii*rli siu-li oi<>aiiizati()ns as Fritz KiihiTs biiiul and other 
German orjjanizations, which also have their headcjuarters in Ham- 
bur«r and specializes in Nazi propa<ianda. 

The nnder<>roiind part ()i)erates, to my knowledge, independent 
of the consuhites. For exami)le, when I was sent to Denmark in 
1936, the Gestapo thought that I was actually carrying out their 
instructions. T was warned never to a[)proach a German consulate. 
They had the theory that German consulates are being watched 
by members of eneniy organizations or by police and that anyone 
entering or leaving a consulate would sooner or later become identified 
or associated with the Nazi cause. 

Mr. Starxes. AVhile that may be true, was it your experience that 
a portion of the tinancial burden of carrying on this campaign of 
pro])aganda came through the consular agents? 

ISIr. Krebs. That is right. 

Mr. Starxes. That was a means of transmitting money? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

^Ir. Starxes. From Nazi Germany? 

]\Ir. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

^Ir. Starxes. Even to the undercover agents of the departments? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. Wouldn't this be true, too, that in each one of these 
organizations that were open and known and carrying on propa- 
ganda work, there Avould be placed police representatives to see how 
things were going within that organization? 

Ml'. Krebs. I did not quite get the question. Mr. Voorhis. 

Mr. VooRHis. You say there are two things conducted entirely dif- 
ferent from each other — two divisions of the work? 

Mr. ICrebs. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. One is the propaganda work, which is open? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And largely legal and carried on by organizations 
that people in the United States know exist ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And the other is an underground working of espio- 
nage and secret police work ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. My question was whether the organizations that 
were carrying on the propaganda work didn't always have placed 
in them people from the secret police? 

Mr. Krebs. (No answer.) 

]Mr. Voorhis. So as to watch what was happening? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Voorhis. And wouldn't it also be true that each consulate 
would probably have such a man? 

Mr. Krei5s. Well, the organizations carrying on propaganda work 
usually have a nuich larger membership than the underground oper- 
ations and there are constantly scouts of the underground apparatus 
in the open or half-oi)en mass organizatiims, first, to control the lead- 
ershi)) of these organizations, but chiefly to look for new material for 
underground work. 

Anyone who has been active in the Communist Party or in Fascist 
organizations will have the experience that when a marked new talent 



8498 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

pops up in some lower unit in the mass organization, this young talent 
suddenly disappears from the scene. No one sees him any more. That 
means he is recruited for the underground section and has completely 
severed relations, official relations with the propaganda organization. 

The agencies of the North German Lloyd Line, the Hamburg 
American Line in New York, for exami)le, had much more to do with 
the underground organizations of the Gestapo, in my opinion, than 
the German Consulate in New York. 

Mr. VooRHis. I would like to ask this question: Can you be any 
more specific about such success as may be achieved by tlie Gestapo 
or by the Nazis of any kind, or by the Communists, in getting person- 
nel into positions as radio operators on American ships? 

You said the attempt was made and the committee has had testi- 
mony to that effect previously, but I wonder whether you have any 
specific knowledge about the ttegree of the success of such efforts ? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, offhand I know of one — I can give you his name. 
His name is Aage Moeller — M-o-e-l-l-e-r with a Scandinavian "o." 
He is third officer aboard the Standard Oil Co. tanker, the Calliope. 
and also a member of the G. P. U. for some years, in contact with 
Jensen and another G. P. U. chief who is in New York now, George 
Hegner. 

He has an office in Whitehall Street and his number is in the tele- 
phone book. 

Mr. VooRHis. Is this fellow on this boat now, as far as you know — is 
he on the Standard Oil tanker still as far as you know ? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, my information is less than 6 weeks old on this 
man. 

Mr. VooRHis. What would you estimate has been the degree of 
success in getting these people into positions as radio operators? 

Mr. Krebs. As radio operators the Nazis will have very great diffi- 
culties. 

Mr. Starnes. What about the Communists? Would they have as 
much difficulty ? 

Mr. Krebs. I don't think so, not so great. If the N;t.zis have men 
among the radio personnel today on American ships, tlien they are 
usually men of German origin, but the Communists find it much 
easier because the Nazis have a more or less straight political ap- 
proach and appeal to pride and national institutions, but the Com- 
munists with their economic approach talk of better living, of any- 
thing except G. P. U. and world revolutions. 

Mr. VooRHis. More contacts? 

Mr. Starnes. But the sum total of the effect at the present time is 
the same — it doesn't make any difference whether it is a Communist 
or a Nazi aboard the ship, the information and the assistance is given 
to Hitler and Germany just the same? 

Mr. Krebs. My opinion is that the Communist control of the Na- 
tional Maritime Union plays today exactly the game Hitler and 
Goebbels would want the American trade-unions to play with no con- 
cessions. 

Mr. Matthews. With no "concessions," you mean, "with no quali- 
fications" ? 

Mr. Krebs. I mean 100 percent. Mr. Goebbels himself — if Mr. 
Goebbels himself were in charge of the National Maritime Union, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES §499 

Messrs. Curran, Ray, and so forth, could not act differently thaii 
they act now. 

Mr. jMaithews. In that connection who was tlie man who for 
many years headed the maritime work of the Communist Interna- 
tional? 

Mr. Kreks. The ^enertd secretary of the maritime division of the 
Connnunist International was, from 1923 to the end of 1939, Albert 
Walter. 

Mr. Matthews. W-a-1-t-e-r? 

]\[r. Krebs. That is right. 

Mr. Matthews. AVith his headquarters in Hamburg? 

Mr. Krebs. His headquarters were, during those 10 years, in Ham- 
burg at the address on Rothesood Strasse, No. 8. 

Mr. Matthews. That is for more than 10 years Albert Walter was 
the head of the work of the International among the seamen of the 
world ; is that right ? 

Mr. Krebs. Among the seamen of all countries, including America. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you knoAv Albert Walter? 

Mr. IvREBS. I knew him very well. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you work under his direction or in his ap- 
paratus ? 

Mr. Krebs. I saw him for many years almost every — for years I 
was in his office most every day. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a page from Look Magazine for May 
20, 1941, which has a photograph reproduced. Is that a genuine 
photograph ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the occasion on which that photo- 
graph was made? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. It was an international mass meeting in Ham- 
burg, I believe in 1932, made on the occasion when — on the occasion 
of the political exploitation of the Scottsboro trial. There were 
two Americans, Mr. Louis Engdahl and Ada Wright, supposedly the 
mother of one of the condemned Negroes of Scottsboro. They trav- 
eled all over Europe and when there was a congi-ess or a mass meet- 
ing of Communist leaders, those two popped up to make their speech. 
Tliis was a meeting of seamen of various nationalities in a large 
hall. 

Mr. Matthews. Who is the man in the left of the photograph, the 
man standing? 

Mr. Krebs. Albert Walter, the head of the maritime division of 
the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. And who is the person seated next to him ? 

Mr. Krebs. Johnson, a Negro Communist from America, who 
served as an American delegate in Hamburg for a while. 

Mr. Matthew^s. And wdio is the person in the middle ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is myself. 

Mr. Matthews. And who is on your right? 

Mr. Krebs. That is another American Communist who was in 
charge of work on American ships in continental ports, particularly 
Hamburg. His party name was Mike Pell and his real name is 
Morris Appelman. 

Mr. Matthews. And who is the man on the end ? 



8500 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs. That is Gundelack, head of the German section of 
the 

Mr. Matthews. According to this account in Look Magazine, who 
supplied this photograph to the magazine? 

Mr, Krebs. AVell, I suppose Mike Pell did, who was present at the 
meeting. 

Mr. Matthews. Morris Appelman signs the statement submitting 
the photograph, stating his party name was Mike Pell. That is in- 
formation from the Communist Party itself that you were a real 
person, really existent and at least had some association with Albert 
Walter? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

]\rr. Matthews. Xow, I show you a book entitled ''The S. S. Utah," 
by Mike Pell, published by International Publishers in 1933. Did 
you know anything about that book at the time of its preparation? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; I know it very well. Mike Pell wrote it while 
he worked under my direction in Hamburg in 1932. a year before its 
publication. 

He received the instructions to — be was writing a book trying to 
show how an American ship should be organized in the Communist 
sense, and he received instructions through the maritime secretary 
out of the Comintern, through Walter, to go ahead. He received 
a salary. The writing was financed by the Comintern, and the pur- 
pose of the book was to bring out in popular fiction form, the tech- 
nique and theory of organizing a strike and mutiny aboard a ship 
on the high seas. 

It is the story of a lone Communist coming aboard a ship with a 
non-Communist crew and ends with the whole crew becoming Com- 
munists, putting on a mutiny, shooting by police and things like that. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know where Albert Walter is today or 
has been in recent months? 

Mr. Krebs. Albert Walter is one of the prominent advisers of 
the Gestapo in maritime matters. He works for the foreign division 
in Hamburg. 

Mr. VooRHis. He is one of what ? 

Mr. Krebs. Albert Walter is one of the chief advisers of the for- 
eign division of the Gestapo in maritime matters today. 

Mr. VooRHis. In other words, this man, who for years you worked 
with when he was the head of the international Communist organiza- 
tion of seamen, is now, you say, the principal adviser of the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. That is correct. 

Mr. VooRHis. On maritime matters? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; it happened in very many cases. 

Mr. VooRHis. How do you know that? 

Mr. Matthews. Have you met him since he became an adviser to 
the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. INIatthews. Have you had personal conversations with him? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give us the details? 

Mr. Krebs. I can give a short history of his turn-over. Walter was 
arrested shortly after I was in 1933 and was kept 10 or 11 months 
in the Hamburg concentration camp, and after 10 months he made a 



r\-A.MEKi(\\x rrvOPAr.Axr>A acttvitiks 8501 

deal with the Gestapo in order to save his mother. He was very 
devoted to his mother, a woman over 70 years okl, and the Gestapo 
knowino; that Walter knew all the secrets without exeei)tion of Com- 
munist ()r<ianizalions in the merchant marine fleet and navies of tlie 
world, threatened that they would imprison or kill his mother if he 
wouldn't come to their side. 

That hroke him completely :ind lie came to the side of the Nazis 
very early in 1934. 

AVhen I was released in 1937 from a Xazi prison, Inspector Kraus 
of the Gestapo, gave me Walter's address and asked me to <jo to 
Walter and have a talk with him and report on the imj)ression Walter 
had made on me. He wanted to use me to test Walter's loyalty as 
a Xazi. 

I went to AValter's apartment and it was one of the <rreatest shocks 
of my life when the man who had been my boss in the Communist 
International for many years, tried for 2 hours to convince me of the 
correctness of the Nazi policy, and from that I gathered, that is from 
his own talk, that he was well paid by the Gestapo but that he was 
inside himself a beaten man, but that he served him with his wide 
knowledge of maritime matters, and I accept it that he still does so 
today. He is the best man they have in maritime questions. 

Walter knows America well.' He has been in this country during 
the World War as a German war prisoner and it was he who first 
organized Lenin's circles in prison camps among the German war 
prisoners here and after his release went directly to Russia where 
Lenin ai)pointed him as the maritime chief of the Comintern. 

Mr. ^Iattiiews. Would you say that the case oi Walter's conversion 
to nazi-ism, under duress, as you have described it, is a typical instance 
of the use of former anti-Nazis by the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; it is a typical instance, but most of them are not 
as important as Walter to them. 

Mr. Starnes. I was interested particularly about your reference to 
that picture. You say that was at a time when they were making a 
political exploitaticm of the Scoffi^horo cam? 

Mr. Krehs. Yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Was that a subject of debate and exploitation and of 
wide use throughout the Communist circles in Eui-ope? 

Mr. Kkebs. Yes; in every country in Europe the Scoftf<horo ensr 
was used by the Communist International to stir up general hatred 
among the European workers against the economic and political 
system of America, by inciting the German workers, the French 
workers, the Swedish workers, to terrible hatreds against American 
conditions, by telling them; "See, that is the way proletarians are 
treated in America." 

Mr. Starnes. In other words, they were using that as an example 
of how the capitalistic system in America exploited the proletariat, 
or the peasants, or the working classes? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, the exploitation of the ScotUhoro case was that 
"Eight Negroes had been condenmed to death under fi'amed charges 
because they were simply woi-kers who rode on a freight train.'' 

Mr. Starnes. My interest in it is somewhat personal because I was 
called out of a moving picture show on a ]\Iai-ch evening in 1931 to 



8502 UN AMERICAN TROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

take charge of troops going to the scene of action and was pr&sent 
throughout the first trial of the case. 

Mr. Krebs. It was just through such campaigns that they gained 
thousands of new members. 

Mr. Starnes. It was my first experience in riot or mob duty from a 
military standpoint, therefore, I have some personal interest. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Did you say one of the American speakers at that 
mass meeting was J. Louis Engdahl ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir ; that is right, from Chicago. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not he was head of the 
International Labor Defense at the time he made this tour in Europe? 

Mr. Krebs. He was nominally the head. The real head was a Kus- 
sian, but Engdahl was nominally the leader of the International be- 
cause that would carry a stronger appeal for the workers than to have 
someone with a Russian name on the list. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know who the actual head of the Interna- 
tional Labor Defense was? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; the first general secretary of the maritime division, 
a man named Atchkanov. 

Mr. Starnes. And they intervened in this first trial by sending 
telegrams of a very threatening nature to the presiding judge at the 
Scottsboro trial? 

Mr. Krebs. It was organized all over the world. 

Mr. Starnes. Those telegrams were delivered personally by me 
to the presiding judge at the time and they were very threatening in 
their nature. 

Mr. Krebs. I have been in Communist cell meetings in Geraiany 
where each member of the cell was given 10 or 15 Scottsboro pam- 
phlets with instructions "Now you go and sell them for 10 pemiies 
and with the proceeds you send a telegram to the President in 
America or the judge in Scottsboro." 

Mr. Matthew^s. Did you mean by your reference to Ada Wright, 
that there was some doubt about her being the real mother of some 
of the Scottsboro defendants ? 

Mr. Krebs. No; Communist believed she was. 

Mr. Matthews. In party circles ; is that the idea ? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, the party members didn't believe she was the 
mother of one of the Negroes. She was some Communist woman 
taken up in Moscow in some way and carried around the world for 
that purpose, but the impression given out to the audience in the 
mass meetings was that she was the mother of one of the condemned 
Negro boys. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Krebs, you stated a moment ago that in the 
Nazi concept of war, hostilities begin when the first "fifth columnists" 
are sent across the border into a non-Nazi country ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Can you give us some of the ways in which the 
Gestapo, working for the Nazi movement, is now directing its attack 
upon the United States? What are some of the methods of attack 
upon America? You stated that Germany today considers that the 
United States is an enemy country and has been since 1937? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. The chief Gestapo attack against the United 
States today is only in part directed against the United States. A 



UN-AMBiaCAX PROrACANDA ACTIVITIES 8503 

larger portion of (iestapo work to mulenniiie the United States 
strenirtli at the present time is directed toward Latin America. 

The Gestapo leaders of the forei<^n division regard any Gestapo 
thrust, any Gestapo success in Latin America not so important be- 
cause it brings nearer the domination of Latin America, but it is a 
victory in the struggle to create bases and is against the United 
States on the theory that with the United States undermined and 
torn up by civil strife, distrust between nations, the wliole of America 
would fail under their economic and even political control. 

Mr. Starnes. You would say, then, the chief method of penetra- 
tion and the chief attack directed against this hemisphere is in Latin 
America ? 

Mr. Krebs. In Latin America; yes. 

Mr. Starnes. Rather than directly against the United States of 
America ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is right. The Gestapo follows the policy of not 
openly antagonizing public opinion in the United States, but the 
German-speaking portions of the population of some South Ameri- 
can countries — there are millions of them living in German towns in 
Brazil, Chile, Argentina, and even in Guatemala, with German schools, 
where the language is German and not Spanish, but who are citizens 
of that Latin-American country. 

That is ideal recruiting ground for them. The Germans in Amer- 
ica have to some extent been assimilated and are scattered, but the 
Germans in South America are completely separate. Their cultural 
life and their traditions are completely separate from the Spanish 
culture and traditions, and also the resistance with which Nazi and 
Gestapo campaigns would meet in Latin America would be much 
weaker in Latin America — in South America than in North America, 

Mr. Starnes. Do the Germans appreciate the fact that following 
the World War and the ascension of power in Germany of Hitler, 
that no movement in the United States carried on under a German 
brand would be very popular? Do they appreciate that fact? Do 
they realize that fact? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; it is very extensively used, but also the economic 
motive — I have seen in Hamburg in the office of propaganda, leaflets 
for South America. The text in a nutshell was this — it was directed 
toward Argentina : 

What have you to sell? Your economy depends on the sale of wheat and the 
sale of beef. Does America buy beef? No; it exports beef. Does America buy 
wheat? No; it exports wheat. Argentinians, your market is Europe and not 
America, and the biggest market in Europe is Germany. Therefore, it is logical 
for you to work with us instead of with a country in the north which would 
like to sell you things, but will not buy from you. 

Such arguments are used very extensively in conjunction with the 
idealistic arguments about German strength. 

Mr. M.'VTTHEWs. Of what value are German business houses in the 
United States to the Nazi movement, and what is their relationship 
to the Gestapo? 

Mr. Krebs. The Gestapo, in sending agents abroad, sends the bulk 
of its agents quite legally under the guise of employees to German 
business firms abroad. 

Any German firm in North and South America doing business with 
Germany, being run by Germans or being in some Avay dependent 



3504 u^'-A^[EUI('A^• PRorAcjANDA ACTivrnp:^ 

economically in its public relations with German organizations or in 
its public relations with German organizations or German institu- 
tions, is used by the Gestapo for its own purposes. 

Mr. Matthev/s. And what would those purposes include? 

Mr. Krebs. These purposes would include, first, to make every 
German business firm a potential fortress in future campaions, with 
German business firms located throughout American countries. These 
firms are considered as ideal concentration i)oints in case of sndden 
emergencies, in case of sudden Nazi call to action. Sec(md, it is 
usually that business firms have a very large range of contacts with 
other non-German business houses; that the business and commercial 
contacts of German firms are used for industrial and transport 
espionage ; that well-established German business houses are used for 
the purpose of ]:)lacing Gestapo men in the non-German business 
houses in American countries. 

They are sent over as clerks, as acconntants, as ty])ists, and what 
not. They work, and wherever it is possible these peo])le are recom- 
mended to other firms. 

German businesses which take the form of air lines in Latin 
America are of first-rate strategic importance in connection with 
espionage, the mapping of countries from the air, monopolizing the 
pilot staffs of that country; monopolizing the air fields and landing 
bases of that country. 

There is not a single German business house in America or branch 
of German business houses in America, which have not on their 
staff at least one man of the Gestapo. It is this world of business 
houses which form the strongest points of the Gestapo as the trade- 
unions form the strong basis for Communist and G. P. U. work. 

Mr. Starnes. I want you to repeat that. The German or Nazi 
Government is using the Gestapo which is working through German 
business concerns in this country 

i\Ir. Krehs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. To obtain information about our security program 
and to produce choke points or to sabotage our efforts? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Just as the Communists are using the trade-unions 
for the same identical purpose in sabotaging strikes and slowing 
down of production? 

Mr. Krebs. It is a Nazi division of work. The Communists could 
not penetrate business if they tried. 

Mr. Starnes. And neither could the Nazis penetrate the trade- 
unions ? 

Mr. Krebs. Neither could the Nazis penetrate the trade-unions if 
they tried to. 

Mr. Mason. But you wouldn't say that now since the Communists 
and the Nazis have combined, that they haven't the influence of 
both of these organizations — trade-unions and business houses and 
therefore are doubly dangerous from our standpoint ? 

Mr. Krei^s. Yes, sir; doubly dangerous, especially since their gen- 
eral policy today as to world affairs is the same. 

Mr. VooRHis. That is a more accurate way to put it than to say 
they are in one organization. In other words, as I understand you, 
your statement was to the effect that you didn't know of specific 



UX-AMEKICAN PROrAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8505 

iiKstaiR-es wIrmv there was an actual iiiergino; of the Connminist and 
the Nazi organizations, but the fact is that their policies today 
are the same policies and that therefore the work done by either 
one ()!• the other was of benefit to the other, is that right? 

Mr. KuEHs. Yes; that is correct. 

Mr, Staknes. In other words, they have merged their objectives 
and^ their objectives are the same? 

Air. Ki!Eus. Yes. 

Mr. Staknes. In that their objective is to destroy a democracy 
such as this or as we know it — that is, to destroy democratic gov- 
ernment and substitute for it some form of state socialism? 

Ml'. Kkebs. Tliat has been the common aim from the very begin- 
ning but under different methods. 

Mr. Starxes. Now, they find by using their different methods 
tliey are approaching the same objective? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. VooRHis. You spoke about German business houses? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. I wouhl like to be clear what we mean by "German 
business houses." Do you mean by that a commercial or industrial 
organization whose ownership is in Germany. 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. Or do you mean a business in America that is run by 
people of German extraction ? Wliich of those two things do you 
mean ? 

Mr. Krebs. Both. At first this line of action was started with 
large German companies based in Germany but with branch offices 
in this country. 

Mr. VooRiiis. Yes. 

Mr. Krebs. It began with the North German Lloyd and Hamburg- 
American Lines, particularly with the North German Lloyd. The 
Nazis as soon as they came to power forced a fusion of these com- 
])anies and the North German Lloyd offices in New York were con- 
sidered by the foreign division of the Gestapo in Hamburg, as their 
office, as a Gestapo office. 

Next the branch offices of the German steel and dye trusts, and 
from there on down to very small German-American or American- 
German enterprises. For example, before my book was published and 
I lived in New York for about 'I years as a man — general laborer — 
I tried at various times for jobs, small jobs, such as elevator man 
or porter in hotels and apartment houses. I was astonished to find 
right in New York and in Brooklyn in modem apartment houses, 
maybe owned by a Jewish firm but the superintendent is a German 
and a Nazi, anil the whole i)ersonnel of that apartment house were 
Nazi members — were members of the Nazi Party, yet it was a modern 
apartment block in which members of the Nazi Party were in posses- 
sion of passkeys to every apartment. 

In all such cases I refused to take this work, but particularly among 
the ai)artment house superintendents in New York City — and I know 
New York especially because I worked there, there is a very large 
number of Nazi Germans even in such districts as Washington 
Heights, up in the Bronx and Chelsea and so forth. 



3506 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Wherever a Nazi holds the position even of a minor foreman he will 
employ only Nazis. When he hears of another job being opened up 
somewhere in a factory or in an ofSce, wherever it may be, he will do 
his utmost to place a Nazi in that position. 

Mr. VooRHis. Well, one thing that I want to try to be clear and 
careful about is, we know there are a great number of people in the 
United States have German names or are of German descent who are 
thoroughly loyal to the United States. 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. Now, we want to be clear that just because the name 
of a company happens to be a German name that that doesn't mean 
that that company is sympathetic to the Nazis necessarily, does it? 

Mr. Krebs. If there is a German business house — even if the chiefs 
of that business house are not Nazis, but this German business house 
has some sort of dealings with Germany which would enable the 
Gestapo to put this business house under economic pressure, this busi- 
ness house would be utilized by the Gestapo. 

Mr, VooRHis, Then we will say that any American business that 
has extensive dealings in Germany is likely to be utilized in the man- 
ner that you have described, is that right? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Mr. VooRHis. What is the German name for the Dve Trust ? 

Mr. Krebs. The German name? 

Mr. VooRHis. Yes. 

Mr. Krebs. I. G. Farbenindustrie. 

Mr. VooRHis. Do you know anything about the relationship of the 
I, G. Farbenindustrie in Germany, which you formerly referred to as 
the Dye Trust; do you know whether or not that company controls 
any patents for the manufacture of certain important metals in the 
United States as well as elsewhere ? 

Mr. Krebs. The I. G. Farbenindustrie, I know from first-hand ex- 
perience, was already in 1934 completely in the hands of the Gestapo. 
They went so far as to have their own Gestapo prison on the factory 
grounds of their large works at Leuna. and that the I. G. Farbenin- 
dustrie began, particularly after Hitler's ascent to power, to branch 
out in the foreign field through subsidiary factories, and go far be- 
yond their original scope of production. 

I. G. Farbenindustrie means paints, factory production of aniline 
paints. But in Germany the I. G. Farbenindustrie includes ex- 
plosives. It is the gi^eastest poison-gas industry of the world concen- 
trated under the title of I. G. Farbenindustrie, and anything con- 
nected with the chemical side of warfare. 

Mr. VooRHis. They control patents for the manufacture of magne- 
sium, do they not? 

Mr. KjtEBS. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not they control the patents 
for any particular mechanical devices that are essential — like jigs and 
dies and that sort of thing that are used in ordnance manufacture and 
that sort of thing? The sort of jigs and dies we have used here on 
educational orders and that have been used here for producing certain 
pieces of ordnance? Do you know whether they have control over 
anything like that or patents covering such tools? 



UX-AMEKICAN rKOl'ACJANDA ACTIVITIES 8507 

Mr. IMattiikws. I don't believe Mr. Krebs understood the question. 
Mr. Krebs. I understand. 

Mr. Matthews. Congressman Starnes Avants to know if the I. G. 
Farbenintkistrie controls patents on such mechanical devices? 

Mr. Krebs. Not to my knowledge. That belongs to the metal 

industry. 

Mr. Starnes. Any further questions, gentlemen? 

Mr. Matthews. That is all for today. 

Mr. Starxes. The committee will stand adjourned until 10 tomor- 
row morning. 

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 
a. m., Tuesday, May 27, 1941.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1941 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Wa-skhigfon, D. G. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m. in the caucus room, House Office 
Buildino:, Hon. Joe Starnes (cliairman of tlie subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Messrs. Starnes (chairman of the subconmiittee), Voorhis, 
Thomas, and Mason. 

Also present : Mr. Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and Dr. 
J. B. Matthews, director of research. 

Mr. Starnes. The committee will resume its hearings. 

Whom do you have. Dr. Matthews ? 

Mr. Matthews. Richard Krebs. 

Mr. Starnes. Come around, Mr. Krebs. 

EICHARD KREBS— Recalled 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Krebs, were you ever a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please state the dates of your member- 
nhip in the Conununist Party and describe briefly the periods of Com- 
munist Party strategy which your membership covered ? 

Mr. Krebs. I became a member of the Conununist Party in the 
spring of 1988 and remained a member until December 1937. The 
period of membership covered first the period defined by tlfe Com- 
munists themselves as the period of relative stabilization. That is 
the period following the post-war troubles, which is also the period of 
the first 5-y('ar plan, ending about '88-"84. 

Following that, in 1937, the so-called period of popular-front policy 
of the Comintern, a period which is also described as the people's 
front — known as the jjeople's front and also the Ti'ojan horse policy. 

Mr. Matthews. What, exactly were your functions as a member of 
the Communist Party? 

Mr. Krebs. I began as an active rank-and-file member of the Com- 
munist water-front organizations in Hamburg and was later sent as 
a traveling maritime organizer to various countries — Holland, Bel- 
gium, United States. 

In 1930 I became a member of the secretariat of the maritime divi- 
sion of the Comintern in the function of international political in- 

8509 



3510 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

structor, traveling as such in Belgium, Holland, Great Britain, Nor- 
way, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, France, and Germany. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. Krebs, I- am a little doubtful as to what you 
gave as the period of joining the Communist Party. Did you say 1933 
or 1923? 

Mr. Kbebs. 1923, I meant to say. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you name all of the countries in which you had 
assignments in the list which you just now gave? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; all the countries ; my travels to the countries I men- 
tioned were following orders to go to these countries — orders from my 
superiors in the movement. 

Mr. Matthews. What is the reason for the special attention which 
the Communists, the Comnuinist International and the Communist 
Party, give to the maritime industry? 

Mr. Krebs. From the very beginning the maritime industry was 
considered by Communist leaders as the most strategic of all indus- 
tries from the point of view of the interests and safety of the Soviet 
Union. 

The underlying theory of intense Communist efforts to control the 
maritime industry of other countries was, first, that whoever controls 
the ports and the shipping of a nation controls also that nation's ex- 
ports and imports ; that is, has an economic strangle hold on the life 
of that nation. 

Second, that Comnumist control of shipping and liarbors would en- 
able the Soviet Union to obstruct eifectively any attempts at overseas 
war campaigns carried on by some country without the assent of the 
Soviet government. 

Mr. Matthews. In what way were the Communist organizations 
in the United States shipping industry affiliated with or directed from 
Communist centers in the Soviet Union or elsewhere? 

Mr. Krebs. As early as 1923 there were no Communist waterfront 
organizations to speak of. The first beginnings of Communist ship- 
ping organizations in this country were the result of the sending over 
to American waters of a number of scores of traveling organizers, 
serving as members in ships' crews, coming from Europe and doing 
organizing work in every port of call. 

Originally these men were supplied with literature and propaganda 
material and instructions and a small amount of funds from the 
European headquarters, which was, from the very beginning, in 
Hamburg. 

Since then the successive Communist-controlled maritime organiza- 
tions in this country have never acted without being completed in ac- 
cord and without following instructions from Comintern maritime 
headquarters abroad. It went so far that even the leaders of the 
Communist maritime organizations in this country had to be O. K.'d 
in Moscow and Hamburg before they were permitted to assume their 
jobs. 

Mr. Matthews. What year did this Communist drive for the con- 
trol of the maritime industry in other countries begin? 

Mr. Krebs. It began in 1923. The immediate reason for this in- 
ternational campaign to control shipping was this : Following the 
World War the Comintern, then under Lenin himself, harbored the 



rX-AMERICAN rROPAGANDA ACTIVITIP:S 8511 

illusion that the world revolution was coming. There were revolu- 
tionary attempts in Hungary, in Finland, in the Baltic countries, and 
elsewhere. The idea was: *'We will have a Soviet P]urope within 1 
or 2 years." 

But as one after another of these revolutionary movements were 
beaten dow n ami defeated in Europe, it became ap[)arent to the Soviet 
government that the conception of a soviet world Avas still very far 
away from its realization. 

This conclusion they arrived at toward the end of 1923, after the 
decisive defeat of an attempt at an armed insurrection in Germany, 
They saw there would be no soviet world within a few years. They 
settled down for a long and hard struggle to prepare for the next 
revolutionary crisis, and it was with the realization of a long struggle 
that the decision was made to make every attempt to control the 
maritime industries. 

]Mr. Matthews. You are referring to the attempt to set up a Ba- 
varian-Soviet republic in Germany in 1923? 

Mr. Krebs. Xo; not in Bavaria. The Bavarian attempt was made 
in 1919. But in 1923, during the peak of the Gennan inflation and 
the French occupation of industrial Ruhr district, there was prevalent 
among the German masses a mass despair, and from Moscow through 
Kadek and Zinoviev, then heading the Comintern, the diagnosis that 
Germany was ripe for revolution. 

They sent hundreds of Red Army officers to Germany to organize 
militai-y organizations of German Communists. A large amount of 
Russian rifles and anmiunition was smuggled into German ports, and 
the date of the armed rising of the Connnunists was set repeatedly, 
but always canceled until Thaelmann, who later became the chief of 
the Conmuuiist Party of Germany, in a rage, gave the order through 
the couriers to start out and give the signal for the insurrection. 

An order from Moscow canceled this, but to Hamburg the order 
did not reach, and one or two smaller cities, in time. There was an 
armed insurrection which resulted in defeat. Many hundred lives 
were lost, and that ended the attempt at German revolution and 
caused the Comintern to give up the idea of immediate world revolu- 
tion, and then they settled down for the long campaign of 

]Mr. ^Matthews. Who was named by Moscow as the leader of the 
International Propaganda and Action Committee for the marine 
workers of the world ? 

Mr. Kkebs. The first leader appointed by Moscow to head the Inter- 
national Propaganda and Action Committee for marine workers — the 
Ipac Transport, was a Russian named Atchkanov. a friend of Lenin. 

Mr. Matthews. Who were the successors to Atchkanov? 

Mr. KuEHs. After 2 or 3 years of Atchkanov's leadership, which 
did not bring great organizational success, Moscow decided to move 
the center of the Ipac Trans])ort from Moscow to some European 
place and appoint a non-Russian as its chief in order to make the 
world believe that the international revolutionary seamen's move- 
ment was not inspired and directed from Moscow but was a spon- 
taneous movement coming fi-om Europe, and so headquarters were 
moved from Moscow to Hamburg in the beginning of 1923, and ap- 
pointed as chief was the German, Albert Walter, who had a British 
and also an American background. 

62620 — 41 — vol. 14 23 



8512 UN-AMEKICAN I'KOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. IMattiifavs. Were there any Americans in the leadership of the 
Ipac or the International Propa<2:anda Action Committee? 

Mr. Krei5S. Tliere were Americans in the leadership of the organi- 
zation which was a successor of the Ipac Transport. 

Mr. Matthews. And what was the name of that successor organ- 
ization ? 

Mr. Krebs. Ipac Transport was transformed in 193U into an in- 
dependent international called the International of Seamen and Har- 
bor Workers, or the I. S. H. W. 

The formation of this organization, at an international congreSvS 
where Americans were appointed to the executive committee of this 
maritime division of the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the year in which the transforma- 
tion from the International Propaganda and Action Committee to the 
International of Seamen and Harbor Workers took place? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; the year wzs 1930, and the cause was the forcing 
upon the Russians of the first 5-year plan and industrialization pro- 
gram. 

Stalin and the Soviet Government could not afford outside inter- 
vention; and to make doubly sure, the Ipac Transport was trans- 
formed into an independent international of Communuist-dominated 
trade-unions. Americans entered this central committee first in 1932. 

The Americans named were the Negro, James Ford, who repeat- 
edly was a candidate for vice president of the United States; a 
young American, who at that time came from San Francisco, whose 
name was Thomas Kay. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Ford and Ray or 
other American leaders in this movement of the Communist Inter- 
national, were present at the conferences in tlie Soviet Union or 
elsewhere in Europe? You mean the organizational conference in 
connection with the formation of the I. S. IT. W. ? 

INIr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Did they attend? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. In 1930 at the conference, at a special conference 
in Moscow where the organization of the marine international was 
decided, three or four Americans were present, but the leaders of the 
American delegation were George Mink and Tommy Ray. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photograph, which is a picture of 
delegates of transport workers at the Red International Congress. 
Have you seen this photograph before ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know the year in which that congress was 
held? 

Mr. Krebs. That was an advance conference which took place in 
Moscow. 

Mr. Matthews. In what year, do you recall? 

Mr. Krebs. In 1930. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recognize any of the faces in that picture? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. Way on the right "is Waher, Albert Walter, the 
chief of the Comintern's maritime division. 

Mr. Matthews. And you identified Walters yesterday as the man 
who had been converted under duress to a position in tlie Nazi move- 
ment in Germany, did you not? 



rX-AMEKU'AN rK()rA(;AXI)A ACTIVITIES 8513 

Mr. Krebs. It is tlio samo niini Avho now is the nmritime adviser 
for tho Gestapo. 

On Walter's left on the pictuie is A. D. Lozov.sky, whose real name 
is Abraham Branovitch. Lozovsky is the <2:eneral secretary of the 
Ked International L;iboi' Unions in INIoscow, known as the Profin- 
teiii. Next to Lozovsky is George Mink, then chief of Commnnist 
water-front operations on the east coast 

Mr. ^NIaithkws. On the east coast of the United States? 

]Mi'. K!n:i?s. On the east coast of the Ignited States. And next to 
(ieoriie Mink is Tonnny Ray, who was director of operations on the 
west coast of the United States at that time. 

Mr. Ma'ithews. Did yon know Tommy Ray pers(mally? 

Mr. Khebs. Yes; I have met him several times. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you ever meet George Mink j^ersonally? 

Mr. Kkebs. Whom? 

Mr. Maithews. Georoe Mink? 

Mr. Krebs. I met George Mink many times personally. 

Mr. Maithews. Did you ever meet James Ford personally? 

Mr. Kkebs. James Ford worked under my direction in Hamburg 
ff)r over 1 year. 

Mr. ]\Iattitews. Is this the same James Ford who was a candidate 
for the Vice-Presidency on the Comnumist Party ticket in the United 
States last year? 

Mi-. Kkebs. That is right. 

]\lr. Matthews. In how many countries did this maritime division 
of tlie Comintern maintain organizations? 

Ml-. Kkebs. By 193'2. 2 years after its organization, it had inde- 
]>endent trade-unions or trade-union operations in everj' maritime 
country of Europe. It had all of the British dominions; a very 
strong union in China: also another union in the Dutch East Indies; 
some Xegro dockers" unions in Cape Town and Durban ; another one 
at Dakar, French West Africa : an East India seamen's union of 
]>ritish India; and they were the beginning of Comnumist-dominated 
trade-unions in Latin- American countries, particularly the Argentine 
and L^ruguay. 

Mr. Matthews. When did thev first gain their first foothold in 
the United States? 

^Ir. Kkebs. The Comintern got its first foothold in the United 
States during 1925 and 1926. Mink began work in 1926. 

Mr. Matthews. When yon say the Comintern got its first foothold 
in the United States, do you mean the marine or maritime division 
of the Comintern? 

Mr. Kkebs. Maritime division of the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthp:ws. In 1925? 

Mr. Kkebs. In 1925 and 1926. 

Mr. Matthews. And was George Mink the Communist leader for 
llie American water front on behalf of the Comintern? 

Ml-. Kkebs. Yes; George Mink began work in 1926 organizing Com- 
munist groups in East coast ports. He attracted Moscow's atten- 
tion because he seemed a very enthusiastic worker and Mink was sub- 
seciuently called to Moscow in 1928, together with James Ford, to 
attend a world congress, either of the Comintern or the Profintorn, 



8514 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I don't know which, and after his return from Moscow in 1928 he was 
the absolute chief of Communist efforts on the American water front. 

The authority given him personally by Lozovsky in Moscow took 
him out of the jurisdiction of the centi'al committee of the Communist 
Party of America. Mink operated as a separate leader. Mink was 
not subjected to orders from the American Party leaders. He had 
his own budget — that is, his own subsidy from Moscow and operated 
directly under Moscoav's orders. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not George Mink was a 
seaman ? 

Mr. Krebs. George Mink was a taxicab driver in Philadelphia 
before he went into the organizing of seamen. I don't believe George 
Mink has ever gone to sea except for his trips to Moscow. 

Mr. Matthews. Is he not very frequently known as "the taxicab 
seaman?" 

Mr. Krebs. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. Matthews. Is he not freqently known as "the taxicab seaman?" 

Mr. Krebs. I don't know. As far as I know the water-front people 
and sailors described him chiefly as "Mink the pink." 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a photograph and ask you if you can 
identify that as a picture of George Mink ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is George Mink. 

i\Ir. Matthews. And while you are making the identification of 
Mink, there is another photograph on the same page? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know that man ? 

Mr. Krebs. That is a man who is called in the party "Horse Face." 
whose real name is Roy Hudson, an organizer for the Commiuiist 
maritime workers in the United States. 

Mr. Starnes. Roy Hudson ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; known in the Communist Party as "Horse 
Face." 

Who appointed George Mink to this very responsible position which 
you described? 

Mr. Krebs. George Mink was appointed directly by Lozovsky first, 
and his leadership was substantiated and prolonged at orders from 
Albert Walter, with the okay of Lozovsky in Moscow. 

Mr. Matthews. And you have identified Lozovsky as the head of 
the Red International unions? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Matthews. As long as that organization was in existence? 

Mr. Krebs. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. An organization known as the Profintern? 

Mr. Krebs. That is correct. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Lozovsky is Assistant Com- 
missar of Foreign Affairs in the Soviet Union? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, sir. Lozovsky, because of his knowledge of other 
people's countries, gained while being head of the Profintern, was 
appointed to the post of Assistant Secretary for Foreign Affairs in 
the Soviet Government. 

Mr. Matthews. Now, will you describe briefly the precise task of 
the International Seamen's Clubs in American harbors? 

Mr. Krebs. When the Comintern first began its maritime efforts 
it had no lai''ge organizations to rely on. The idea was advanced 



UX-AMKUICAN I'KUl'ACJANDA ACTIVITIES 8515 

by Lozovsky to create in all important harbors of the world Com- 
nuinist clubs which should <>ive movies, dances, and entertainments 
to attract the seamen, and once the seamen were there, to draw 
them into discussions, to supply them with literature, and to use 
these International Seamen's Clubs mainly as propa^janda centers, 
with the idea that after the seamen's clubs had attracted a number, 
a lar<;e number of seamen, hundreds or thousands, in each harbor 
or in each large country, that the seamen's clubs should proceed to 
organize on that basis seamen's unions. 

The tirst seamen's clubs in the United States were started in the 
end of 19:26 and 1927, by George jNIink. By 1931 there were, I 
think there were a dozen, around a dozen seamen's clubs in the 
United States harbors, and another 40 International Seamen's Clubs 
scatteied in other chief harbors of the world, including the Soviet 
Union. 

All these clubs were financed through budgets which came from 
Moscow to the I. S. H. W. office in Hamburg, and were then dis- 
tributed as subsidies to the various clubs by Albert Walter. 

Mr. ^Matthews. When and by whom was the Marine Workers' 
Industrial Union organized in the United States^ 

]\Ir. Thomas. I Avould like to have the witness develop, if you 
will iiold that question for a moment, I would like for the witness 
to develop where the most active and largest seamen's clubs are 
located today in the United States. 

Mr. Krebs. The seamen's clubs existed in America — the headquar- 
ters was in New York, 140 Broad Street. 

There were seamen's clubs in Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, 
Xorfolk. New Orleans, Houston, Tex., Seattle, San Francisco, San 
Pedro, that is Los Angeles Harbor; I believe Portland, Oreg.. and 
some smaller clubs scattered over smaller ports. These seamen's 
clubs were officially liquidated in 1935, when the Comintern decided 
on its change of policy from the revolutionary policy to the Trojan 
horse policy, when oi'ders were given for the seamen's club members 
and the seamen's clubs activities were to join the established trade 
unions. 

The seamen's clubs were by that time held to have fulfilled their 
purpose — that is attract thousands of seamen through their propa- 
ganda activities, and now the forces of the seamen's clubs were told to 
enter the trade-unions — ^to conquer these trade-unions. That is the 
transformation in the words of Lozovsky, from propaganda to action. 

A number of seamen's clubs remained in this country but they 
were only there for work among non-Americans — foreign seamen 
and they were known and still exist under the name "Scandinavian 
Seamen s Clubs," in a half dozen American ports. 

ISIr. Starxes. But that group of clubs was officiallv liquidated 
in 1935? 

iNIr. Krebs. That is right. 

Mr. Starnes. And from that time on they were directed to use 
Troian horse tactics and to join existing maritime unions? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. 

Ml-. Starxes. Were they directed to join any particular imion or 
do you know what particular maritime union they were directed to 
use their efforts toward? 



*r< 



8516 UX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; they were ordered at that time to join the Ameri- 
can Federation of Labor, International Seamen's Union of the west 
coast, the gnlf coast and the east coast. 

There was also a firemen's union. Each Communist joined a union 
to which he — each Communist joined the union to whicli he belonged 
on the basis of the work he was doing aboard a ship. Seamen 
joined the seamen's union, the firemen joined the firemen's union; 
the east coast sailors joined the east coast union, and the west coast 
sailors joined the west coast union, forming Communist fractions 
and starting immediately in these unions the so-called rank and file 
movement with the objective to overthrow every union leadership 
which did not follow the party line. 

On the east coast they succeeded in taking over the whole union 
in this manner, and on the west coast they did not succeed and are 
still working on the camouflaged fraction basis. 

Mr. Matthews. When you say the seamen did not succeed on the 
west coast, to what particular union do you have reference on the 
w^est coast — what is the name of the seamen's union on the west 
coast? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, there was at that time — at the time the clubs 
were liquidated, there was only the International Seamen's Union. 
Today it is the union directed by Harry Lundberg, and on the east 
coast it is the National Maritime Union, the direct successor of the 
old Marine Workers League and the International Seamen's Clubs. 

Mr. Matthews. And in between the Marine Workers League and 
the National Maritime LTnion there came the Marine Workers Indus- 
trial Union. 

Mr. Krebs. That is right ; Marine Workers Industrial I^nion was 
organized in 1930 on the basis of the International Seamen's Clubs. 
The order came from Lozovsky. It was relayed by the Hamburg- 
office through Walter and the effect of the order was — the order was 
in effect, that Communists all over the world should organize inde- 
pendent Communist waterfront unions. They were part and parcel 
of the set-up to which also the International Seamen's belong. 

This Marine Workers Industrial Union, an outright Communist 
Tuiion, was liquidated in 1930 officially, in reality (mly transferred 
into a fraction and instructed to enter other unions and take them 
over. 

The Communists felt at that time that they were strong enough 
to do this and take over older unions. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any specific instances in which 
money was transmitted from Moscow or from the Soviet Union to 
American Communists for use in the maritime industry? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; I know of several instances. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please give some of them ? 

Mr. Krebs. In 1930 the sum of $40,000 was relayed through the 
I. S. H. W. offices in Hamburg to George Mink in New York, to the ad- 
dress 140 Broad Street, for an extension of the network of Inter- 
national Seamen's Clubs and also for an enlargement and increase of 
circulation of the Communist maritime newspaper. The Marine 
Workers Voice, at that time. 

The monev was shipped in cash by a Communist courier serving 
aboard the Hamburg- American Line, Albert Balin. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any other instances ? 



UX-A.MEiacA.\ I'KorAlJAXDA ACTH ITU.S 8517 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; in 19;^3 I sent over a sum of money to the maii- 
tinie hea(l{]uai"tei's in New York. The money then w(>nt lo the ad- 
dress of Koy Iluclson, who had snceeeded Mink in the k^adersliip of 
the Marine Workers Industrial Union — Mink had been taken over 
into (t. p. V. work and was in Europe at that time — and had filled 
Mink's place. 

Aoain in 1937 a sum of money destined for these Scandmavian sea- 
men's clubs and for the publication of the Communist-Scandinavian 
and German i)ai)ers for disti-ibution in this country, was shipped 
from Copenha<:,en by the maritime division through a courier aboard 
the Amei'ican-Scandinavian sliip Scanyoik. 

Mr. Matthfavs. In what year? 

]\Ii'. Mason. May I ask how much money was sent ? Did you send 
much more over here? 

Mr. KijEBs. To Roy Hudson was sent from $300 to $400 monthly. 
It was for the upkeep of the Marine Workers Voice, the Communist 
newspaper here, but the sums were strictly bud<>;eted, not in America, 
but were budgeted over in Copenhagen and in Moscow. 

The sums were not sent them — they could not receive the whole 
sum. The budget was worked out so much for the ])aper and so 
much for the clubs and so much for traveling organizers, and so much 
for wages, and in order to make protection, each subbudget was 
shipped separately across. 

Mr. IVLiTTHEWS. In what year did George Mink relinquish his lead- 
ership of the Marine Workers Industrial Union and enter the 
G. P. U. i 

Mr. Krebs. There is no clear demarcation line. George was the 
head of the Marine Workers Industrial Union until 1932. but he had 
entered the G. P. U. service already in 1930. but was taken altogether 
out of the Marine Workers Industrial Union in 1932 to do full time 
G. P. U. work. 

Mr. Matthews. Was he then succeeded by Eoy Hudson? 

!Mr. Krebs. He was succeeded by a committee of three, which in- 
cluded Roy Hudson, Tonnny Ray, and Harry Hynes. 

Mr. ]Mattiiews. Do you know whether or not Roy Hudson and 
Harry Hynes and Tommy Ray now occupy positions of leadership 
in the National Maritime Union? 

Mr. IvREBS. Harry Hynes was killed in Spain during the civil war. 
He was a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade ; Tommy Ray has 
been until recently the real power in the National Maritime Union. 

Joseph Cui-ran, the nominal head of the union, is in reality nothing 
but a marionette for Tommy Ray, who is the actual dictator of the 
union, and also the head of the Communist fraction, donunating frac- 
tion within tlie Marine Workers Union. 

Roy Hudson is regarded as the — he has become a member of the 
central committee of the Connnunist Party of America and is re- 
garded as the representative of the Comnuuiist fraction of the Marine 
Workers Union of the National Maritime Union in the Central 
Conunittee of the Communist Party, but has occupied beyond that 
high trade union functions for other industries, including indus- 
tries in Detroit and the middle western cities. 

Roy Hudson was named foi' a wliile as ])ossible successor of Earl 
Browder when it became apparent that Browder W(Mdd go to prison. 
Tommy Ray some months after the otitbreak of the present war was 



§518 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

sent by the Comintern to the West Indies for special work there, 
especially in the creation of Communist bases in the West Indies. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you information which indicates where 
Tommy Ray is presently active^ 

Mr. Krebs. I understand that lonnnv lia> is pn'bt'.ill} active- on 
the West Indian islands of Jamaica and Haiti and Cuba, and so 
forth. 

Mr. Starnes. Has he been active in Puerto Rico and the Virgin 
Islands, so far as you know? 

Mr. Krebs. Well, I don't know the exact details. I know that he 
has been sent to the West Indies for a certain Communist job. 

Mr. Starnes. What was that job? 

Mr. Krebs. The job was to create Comnuniist waterfront bases in 
the ports of the West Indies. 

I found it of special interest at that time because I knew that Nazi 
organizers at the same time were very active in making bases for 
themselves in the ports of the West Indian islands. 

Mr. Thomas. May I ask a question: Has Tommy Ray also been 
active down on the Gulf coast? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; he has been active on the Gulf coast and west 
coast. 

Mr. Thomas. What has he been doing on the Gulf coast? 

Mr. Krebs. National Maritime Union work, Marine Workers In- 
dustrial work and organizing. He was constantly traveling, making 
the rounds, calling meetings of local leaders, pointing out faults, lay- 
ing down the line for future action, and so forth. 

Each of these groups on the Gulf and west coasts were duty bound 
to send monthly reports to Tommy Ray, and Ray and Hudson then 
combined these monthly reports and sent each month a total report 
to the maritime division over in Europe, in Copenhagen and Ham- 
burg. 

The headquarters were in Hamburg until Hitler came into power 
and after Hitler came to power the maritime headquarters for the 
whole International were moved from Hamburg to Copenhagen. 

Mr. Matthews. And after Hitler took Copenhagen do you know 
where they were moved to? 

Mr. Krebs. There is only two places where they could have moved, 
one is Leningrad, the chief port of Russia, and the other is some 
port in the United States either San Francisco or New York. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you recall a speech made by Tommy Ray at 
an international gathering in which the line of the Communist In- 
lernational was laid down for work among the workers of the mari- 
time industry ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; that was during the International World Con- 
gress of Marine Workers, which took place in May 1932, in Ham- 
burg. The exact date is May 20 until May 25, 1932. 

Communist marine workers delegations from 20 to 30 countries 
took part at this congress. There was a strong Americjin delegation 
under the leadership of George Mink, and Tommy Ray was present 
and Tonnny Ray was sing'led out by the leaders of the maritime 
division to deliver to this congress the main speech on the task of 
Communist seamen and dockers in the event of war. 



UX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8519 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Ray had any collab- 
orators in the preparation of this speech for the sabotage of war 
activities^ 

Mr. KiJKivs. Yes; he hail. Before the congress opened, the whole 
line of the conoivss and the j)hascs of the speeches were let down 
liy a connnittee of foui' or five, which included Albert Walter, myself, 
(leoro-e Miidv. and a personal dele<>;ate of Stalin, whose name was 
Komissarenko. Komissarenko was the special deleoate of the Soviet 
(iovernment at the headquarters of the marine division. 

Mr. Matthews. Are you able at this time to give a brief summary 
of the contents of that speech made by Tommy Ray and on wliich 
you collaborated^ 

INIr. Krebs. Yes. In speaking about the task of Communist water- 
front workers in case of an outbreak of war, in Communist parlance 
"impei-ialist war/' Ray outlined the stratei2:ic importance of the ship- 
ping industry and pointed out that in tJie event of war it would be 
the prime and foremost task of the Communist organizers, first, to 
obstruct the transport of war materials for any country waging 
war without the consent of the Soviet Government. 

War materials are not only defined as munitions, cannon, tanks, 
and so forth; but oil cargoes, gasoline cargoes, wool cargoes — wool 
for the making of uniforms, food shipments — everything that is used 
for the maintenance of an army is considered by the Comintern as 
war material. 

The methods to achieve this obstruction were first and foremost, 
the method of strikes. The line let down was that the workers should 
not be called to a general strike in the maritime industry under the 
slogan '"Obstruct war traiisports," chiefly, but that the wn)rkers should 
be led easily into such an action under economic slogans such as 
higher wages, free Sunday in port for every day spent out at sea, 
and so forth, and that only after physical clashes between the strik- 
ing masses and the police or the military and arrests, not until then 
should political slogans be advanced — "Down with police brutality, 
freedom of the arrested," and the central slogan "'Down with war," 
and "Prevent the transport of war materials." 

The congress adopted a resolution based on the speech delivered 
tliei'e at this international congress by Tommy Ray. 

Mr. Thomas. Do you have a copy of that resolution. Mr. Matthews? 

Mr. Mattheavs. We don't have it in full. We have a report of the 
congress and of the resolution, which I am about to bring to the 
attention of the witness. 

:\Ir. Krebs. this is an issue of the Daily Worker for May 22, 1932. 
On the front page is an article entitled "International Congress of 
Seamen and Harbor Workers Cheers Scottsboro INIother," from Ham- 
burg, Germany. Have you seen that article? 

Mr. Krebs. I have seen much longer reports on the congress. This 
is just a dispatch. I have seen it some time ago, it seems. 

Mr. IMatthews. Will you note that the Daily Worker itself calls 
attention to the presence of certain Americans at this congress? Will 
Vou read what it has to say about these Americans i' This is the 
Daily Worker for May 23 instead of May 22. 



§520 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs (reading) : 

A huge banner demanding the release of the nine framed-up innocent Scotts- 
boro Negro boys hangs over the entrance of the large hall, which is the scene 
of the First World Congress of the International Seamen and Harbor Workers. 
The congress includes 139 delegates representing the seamen and harbor work- 
ers of 27 countries. 

Mrs. Ada Wright, mother of two of the Scottsboro boys, and .T. Louis Engdahl 
are seated among the fractional delegates. A Scottsboro re.soluticm calling for 
the organization of Scottsboro defense committees on all ships and in all harbors 
1o cooperate with the International Red Aid has been unanimously adopted. 
It was gi-eeted with a thunder of cheers and applause. 

George Mink, heading the American delegation, introduced a resolution de- 
manding the release of Tom Mooney. 

Tommy Ray of San Francisco, one of the American delegates, made the 
report on war. The American delegate. Loren/,, of New Orleans, and Mink, 
of New York, in discussion rai.sed the Scottsboro and Mooney persecutions as 
part of the war preparations of American imperialism. 

W'alter, secretary of the International Seamen and Harbor Workei's, reported 
and by presenting concrete facts proved that the critis of world capitalism is 
I'apidly deepening, with worsening conditions for the seamen and harbor work- 
ers and the whole working class. He showed deepening poverty and famine 
esiiecially among the colonial seamen and dockers. He presented proof showing 
a decrease of 40 percent in the transport trade, with 14.000,000 tons of shipping 
laid up, and 24 percent of the ships sailing with cargoes. He showed on the 
other hand that the ship tonnage of the Soviet Union has increased 100 percent 
over 1913— 

and so forth, and then it goes on, in a political vein. 

Mr. Matthews. I show you a copy of the International Trade 
Union Press Correspondence. Was that a publication of the Com- 
munist International? 

Mr. Krebs. That was the publication of Lozovsky of the Comintern. 

Mr. Matthews. Will you please describe briefly the article which 
appears on page 4 of this issue ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. It contains a summary of the antiwar resolutions 
adopted by this International Maritime Congress after the speech of 
Tommy Ray. 

Mr. Matthews. CongTessman Thomas, this is as near a complete 
account of the resoloution as we happen to have in our possession. 

Mr. Starnes. What is that in? 

Mr. Matthews. This is from the International Trade Union Press 
Correspondence, which the witness has identified as the organ of Lo- 
zovsky, who was head of the Profintern in Moscow. 

Mr. Krebs. The headline is "Appeal of the World Congress of Water 
Tran.sport Workers Against Imperialist War." 

Mr. Starnes. Are you going to be able to trace this movement into 
its various ramifications in the United States and Latin America? 

Mr. Matthews. Right down to the present day. 

Mr. Starnes. That being true, the committee will withhold any 
ciuestions and let you develop that in a chronological manner. 

Mr. Matthews. You may proceed, Mr. Krebs. 

Mr. Krebs (reading) : 

Remember the horrors of the World War when millions of workers bled to 
death foi' the prf)fit-craving capitalists. Tens of thousands of seamen went down 
in torpedoed, bombed, and blown-up ships whilst women and children perished 
in penuz-y and hiniger. 

The same fate hovers over you today. Therefore, don't hesitate. Watch 
carefully at every harbor, on every ship and river vessel that is being loaded and 
transported. Should arms or other war material be shipiied, organize the im- 
mediate stoppage of loading, unloading, and transporting of any kind of war 
material. 



rX-A:\IKKI('AX rUOTAlJANDA A( ri\ ITIES 8521 

Mr. Matthews. Xoav yon say that is a resohitimi basod upon the 
speec'li iiuide by Toininy Kay at this international congress, a speech 
upon wliich j'on coUaborated? 

Mr. Kkkbs. That isrig^ht. 

Mr. Matthews. Is that correct? 

Mr. Kkebs. That is ri<ihi. 

Mr. IVLvtthews. Do you know whetlier or not that particular line 
has ever been changed? 

Mr. Krers. No; it has never been changed. 

Mr. ^\)()RIIIs. AA'hen was that given? 

Mr. Matthews. That was in May of 1932. 

Mr. Starnes. And it is still tlie policy of the Communist Party 
to watch tlie cargoes tliat ai'e being loaded upon shi})s and to stop 
loading of arms or nuuiitions or anything that goes into the defense 
of a nation? 

]Mr. Krebs. Yes. The policy still stands. It is not for all trans- 
)K)rts. but for just those transports which do not have the O. K. of 
the Soviet Government. 

Mr. Starves. In other words, if the Soviet Government O. K.'s it, 
it could be shipped anywhere; if they are against it then it would 
be the j^olicy of the National Maritime Union or any other union 
under Connnunist domination to stop those shipments by refusing 
to load, and by striking, and so forth? 

Mr. Krebs. Refusing to load, refusing to transport, refusing to 
handle in any way anything which has to do with war materials. 

Mr. Voorhis. What about American aid to England going out of 
the east coast ports? What about American goods going to Eng- 
land — war materials leaving east coast ports or any other ports, for 
that matter, at the present time? 

Mr. Krebs. For England? 

Mr. Voorhis, Yes. It would seem logical to me that something 
would be done by this group to prevent that. 

Mr. Krebs. Yes. The Comnuniist organizations even today make 
all possible efforts to obstruct shipments of war material to Britain. 
Uj) to the present time such shipments have been carried mainly 
aboai'd British bottoms where Communist influence is very weak, 
but where such sliipments have been carried on non-British and non- 
American bottoms, that is, on ships whose crews are controlled by 
the now existing Scandinavian Seamen's Clubs, which do not limit 
theii- activities to Scandinavians but embrace Dutchmen and Belgians 
and seamen of other con({uered— other nations con([uered by Hitler, 
there have been a great innnber of strikes started because of minor 
economic demands designed to delay the shipment for days and often 
weeks. 

The issue has not become acute for American ships since no 
American ships as yet have been used to carry such material, but 
declarations by the Connnunist fraction leaders in the mai'itime 
unions, and Curran himself, stated that they had the power to ob- 
stiuct such shi})ments and I hey would use it. 

Mr. 'J'homas. In other words, Russia has the whip hand on Amer- 
ican shi])ping at all times? 

Ml-. Krebs. He feels that he has the whip hand because he knows 
there is not a single American ship sailing from east coast ports 
which does not have aboard among its crew a Communit unit. 



g522 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. VooRHis. You said a statement had been made by Joseph 
Curran. 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; Joseph Curran l\as made a statement. 

Mr. VooRHis. When and Avhere? 

Mr. Krebs. In a speech before a union meeting or a union con- 
vention. It has been generally in the American press and also the 
National Maritime Union has issued a special pamphlet in conjunc- 
tion with the AVest Coast Longshoremen's Union, under the title 
"The Yanks Are Not Coming," and this was distributed in thousands 
of copies on American ships and in American harbors to create a 
spirit that : "It is up to you to decide whether the Yanks are coming 
or whether they are not coming." 

Mr. Starnes. Do you know whether or not the National Mari- 
time Union is cooperating with the American Peace Mobilization in 
its present-day program? 

Mr. Krebs. The American Peace Mobilization is a comparatively 
new organization and I know practically nothing about it, but if the 
American Peace Mobilization is a front for the Communist Party 
then I would say with 100-percent surety that they cooperate. 

Mr. Starnes. With the National Maritime Union? 

Mr. Krebs. Because both are fronts for one and the same thing, 
both are directed in the last analysis by the Central Committee of 
the Communist Party. 

Mr. Matthews. Is the National Maritime Union the successor of 
the Marine Workers Industrial Union ? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes, it is. It is not the direct successor. The Marine 
Workers Industrial Union was ordered liquidated by Moscow in 1935 
after the Seventh World Congress of the Communist International 
in Moscow, which took place in that year. They decided under 
orders from Georgi Dimitrotf to change the policy to the Trojan- 
horse policy. 

The Marine Workers Industrial Union was dissolved. The mem- 
bers of this union entered the American Federation of Labor's Inter- 
national Seamen's Union as rank and file members, formed the frac- 
tions, grew in the rank and file movement, and particularly since the 
end of 1934 this rank and file movement grew, assumed more and 
more power inside of the existing International Seamen's Union, 
until by the end of 1936 the Conmiunist rank and file movement, 
that is, the Communist caucus, the Communist block, had com])lete 
power of the union. 

The union was destroyed and a new union was created by the same 
rank and file movement called the National Maritime Union of 
America. 

Mr. Matthews. Is it customary for the Communist leadership in 
such unions to send detailed regular and frequent reports to any 
international headquarters of the Comintern? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; as long as I was active in Communist organiza- 
tions, the rule w^as it was mandatory that every Communist fraction, 
every Communist organization operating in the maritime industry, 
also every Communist Party itself, should send once a month a de- 
^tailed report on the past month's activities and results obtained, plus 
a plan for the next month's work, to international headquarters. 



UX-AMKUK'AN runi'AGANDA ACTIVITIES 8523 

I have seen myself, a miniber of such reports which were sent iii 
by Roy Hudson and some were written by Tommy Ray. 

Mr. Matthews. AVas it a part of your work as an agent of the 
G. P. U. to read such reports from time to time? 

Mr. Kkebs. All reports arriving at headquarters were analyzed 
fii-st by the maritime division and then they were handed over to 
the local G. P. U. office. They were studied there and then the reports 
vrere given to the couriers sei'ving as seamen aboard a Soviet ship. 

It must be noticed that wherever a Communist headquartei*s is 
located it is always a harbor which has regular contact with Soviet 
shipping, Russian shipping. These ships are the last link of all 
material which comes in which is sifted first in Copenhagen and 
then put aboard a Soviet ship and forvrarded to INIoscow. 

^Ir. Mattheavs. Is it your testimony that even though you yourself 
were not present in the United States during some of these periods, 
that you did read the reports from the Communist leaders concern- 
ing tile activities and developments in the United States? 

jNIr. Krebs. I read some of those reports in 1933 and again in 
1937 in the headquarters of the maritime division in Copenhagen. 
I can give you the address of the headquarters at that time. 

Ml'. Matthews. What is the address? 

Mr. Krebs. Vestr Brogade. That is the name of the street. The 
name of the building in Vesterport. It is the largest and most modern 
office building in the Danish capital, and the maritime division and 
the western secretariat of the Comintern maintained a flight of 
offices there, camouflaged as a firm of architects. The sign on the 
door reads Selvo & Co., Architects. It was to these offices that the 
reports were sent out where I read some of them. 

Mr. Matthews. Was it your practice to have any special attention 
given to reports that dealt with strikes in the maritime industry? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; whenever a strike took place a conq^lete and de- 
tailed report of such a strike, sometimes where reports with hundreds 
of typewritten pages were sent in to headquarters. 

The strike report was checked by independent reports from con- 
trolled people placed in the various harbors and then the concurrent 
leports were analyzed, the facts were taken together; weakness of 
strategy and tactics were pointed out, good points were stressed and 
the lessons from each strike rei>ort were drawn and formulated as 
lessons for tactical measures to be taken in the strikes of the future. 

Such analyses and lessons of strikes were usually published in 
pam])hlet form or in mimeographed bulletins and then sent to Com- 
.munist maritime groups all over the world for study purposes. 

Mr. Matthews. Do you know of any strike which was considered of 
such an outstanding character in Communist International circles, a 
strike which occurred in the maritime industry of the United States, 
thai such an analysis was published throughout the world? 

Mr. Krebs. Yes; there was only one strike, though, in the maritime 
industry of the United States which was considered of international 
significance and of outstanding importance and that was the water- 
front strike which resulted in the San Francisco general strike in 
1934. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you yourself read the reports of Communist 
leaders from that San Francisco strike? 



g524 rX-AMERICAX PKOPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Krebs. Yes ; I read tliein years later, in 1937, after I came from 
Germany and read over a large number of such reports in order to 
familiarize myself in what had happened during my absence from 
headquarters. 

Mr. Matthews. Who were the authors of those reports sent from 
this country to Copenhagen, dealing with the San Francisco general 
strike ? Who were the authors, wdio prepared those reports in this 
country? 

Mr. Krebs. The reports came from various sources. The ones deal- 
ing with the Marine Workers Industrial Unions were sent by Hudson 
and Ray. 

Mr. Matthew^s. In reading the reports that had to do with the gen- 
eral strike in San Francisco, of what significance did the Communist 
International derive from them? 

Mr. Krebs. They pointed out in their analysis of the Frisco general 
strike that it w'as the first general strike which had ever taken j^lace 
in the United States under clear Comnuniist leadership. Second, 
they pointed out, the sequence in Comnuniist strategy in using the 
strikes as stepping stones toward the final