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Full text of "Investigation of un-American propaganda activities in the United States. Hearings before a Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-fifth Congress, third session-Seventy-eighth Congress, second session, on H. Res. 282, to investigate (l) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation"






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1 '^A 

INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 

HEARINGS 

BEFOKB ▲ 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-EIGHTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION , ^ Li A -s C 

ON a^5S,H/\-- 

H. Res. 282 ^ ' ^ 

TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND 
OBJECTS OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN 
THE UNITED STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE 4 

UNITED STATES OF SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROP- / 

AGANDA THAT IS INSTIGATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES 
OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE 
OF THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AS GUARANTEED BY 
OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL OTHER QUESTIONS IN 
RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID CONGRESS IN ANY 
NECESSARY REMEDIAL LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 15 

JUNE 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, JULY 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 1943 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 




INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN 

PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE 

UNITED STATES 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-EIGHTH CONGEESS 

FIRST SESSION 



ON 



H. Res. 282 



TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND 
OBJECTS OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN 
THE UNITED STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE 
UNITED STATES OF SUBVERSIVE A^D UN-AMERICAN PROP- 
AGANDA THAT IS INSTIGATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES 
OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE 
OF THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AS GUARANTEED BY 
OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL OTHER QUESTIONS IN 
RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID CONGRESS IN ANY 
NECESSARY REMEDIAL LEGISLATION 



VOLUME 15 

JUNE 8, -9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, JULY 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 1943 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities 



■ -• • • • " " -1 " 






UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
62626 WASUINGTON : 1943 



dA^. 



.. MAR 2 7 1944 




SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, 

WASHINGTON, D. C. 

MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman 

JOE STARNES, Alabama NOAH M. MASON, niinois 

WIRT COURTNEY, Tennessee J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey 

JOHN M. COSTELLO, California . KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota 

HERMAN P. EBERHARTER, Pennsylvania 

Robert E. Stripling, Chief Investigator ' 
J. B. MAtTHEWS, Director of Research 
Jane Isbel'l, Editor 

n 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Abe, Paul Yozo 9391 

B<arntv,. Arthur J 9187 

Beerv, Ben S 1 9038 

Best; P^ttrh A 9290 

Bowron, Fletcher 8989, 9202 

Brown, Thoburn K . 9325 

Buzzell, J. W 9281 

Cavett, Thomas - 9263, 9317 

Cohn, Alfred A - 9209 

Eidsath, S. Martin 9218 

Elliott, Jesse L 1 9002 

Empie, Augustus W 8921, 8954 

Gelvin, Ralph M _• 8833, 8870 

Hennebold, Alan -• . 9249 

Hunter, Allan H 9255 

James. Norris W 9071, 9101, 9137 

Jennings, Irving A 9194 

Jordan , Lon - 9184 

Kanazawa, Emilie Augusta Aldridge 9433, 9453 

Kanazawa. Joseph Tooru 9465 

Latham, Frank C 9004 

Masaoka, Mike 9493, 9539 

Merer. Eldred L 9035 

Mver, Dillon S - 9599, 9661, 9699 

Odemar. Walter H :.__• " 9032 

Orme. Lin B 9171 

Page, Kirbv ■ 9226 

Scoville, Harold R 9178 

Slocum, Tokutaro Xishimura ---- 9413,9434,9538 

Smi'ev, Glenn E 9259 

Steedman, Jame-^ H 8998, 9367 

Stringfellow, Ralph 9378 

Taff. Cliidon J _• 9349 

Ta.vlur, Gorman W 9244 

Washum, Jim , 9372 

Wickersham, Ernest C 9009 

Wirin, A. L 9328,9357 

ni 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIY 
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



TUESDAY, JUNE 8, 1943 



House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee 

To Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

The subcommittee met in room 1543, United States Post Office and 
Courthouse, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M. Costello, chairman 
of the subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon. 
Herman P. Eberharter. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, 
acting counsel. 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. 

For the purpose of the record, in order to verify the investigations 
which have been undertaken by representatives of the Dies committee, 
the committee has had some investigators in the field visiting the 
various relocation centers at which the Japanese have been gathered, 
and as a result of their investigations they found conditions which do 
not seem to be very satisfactory, and we are endeavoring at the present 
time to substantiate the evidence which they have uncovered in the 
course of their investigations. 

It is the purpose of the committee to call in the heads of some of the 
camps and obtain their testimony regarding their conditions at those 
camps and the method of operating the war relocation camps. 

We have brought in today a witness from the camp at Poston, 
Ariz., and I am going to ask Mr. Gelvin to stand and be sworn. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in tliis 
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. Gelvin. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF RALPH M. GELVIN, ASSISTANT PROJECT MANAGER, 
COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION PROJECT, POSTON, ARIZ. 

Air. Costello. Will you give your full name to the reporter? 

An-. Gelvix. Ralph M. Gelvin. 

Mr. Costello. Air. Steedman, will you proceed with the ques- 
tioning? 

Air. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, since the subject of this hearing is 
the Japanese war relocation centers, I should like to have marked as an 
exhibit at this point, a copy of the Executive Order No. 9102, entitled: 
''Establishing the War Relocation Authority in the Executive Office 
of the President and Defining Its Functions and Duties." 

8833 



8834 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

This order was signed by the President on March 18, 1942. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It will be so ordered and made a part of the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Committee Exhibit No. 1,"' 
and received in evidence.) 

Mr. Steedman. Also, Mr. Chainnan, this hearing will bring forth 
some Japanese terms which I would like to explain before I start 
examining the witness. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Very well. 

Mr. Steedman. The Japanese in the United States are divided 
into four classes, namely, the Issei, Nisei, Kibei, and San Sai. 

A Japanese living in the United States but born in Japan is known 
as an Issei, which means first generation. 

Mr. MuNDT. Will you spell those ternis? 

Mr. Steedman. Issei is spelled I-s-s-e-i. 

A Japanese born in the United States of parents born in Japan is 
called a Nisei, which means second generation. 

Nisei is spelled N-i-s-e-i. 

A Japanese born and living in the United States but educated in 
Japan is known as a Kibei — K-i-b-e-i. 

A child of Nisei parents is called a San Sai, which means third 
generation. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Gelvin, will you please give the reporter your 

full name? 

Mr. Gelvin. Ralph M. Gelvin. 

Mr. Steedman. How do you spell your last name? 

Mr. Gelvin. G-e-1-v-i-n. 

Mr. Steedman. "What is your present address? 

Mr. Gelvin. Poston, Ariz, 

Mr. Steedman. Do you live inside the Poston relocation center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr.. Steedman. Are you an American citizen? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Steedman. Where were you born? 

Mr. Gelvin. Louisiana, Mo. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Mr. Gelvin. December 25, 1904. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the armed forces of the 

United States? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. . 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please state briefly your education and 

training? 

Mr. Gelvin. How far back do you want that to go i 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to know whether or not you went to 

high school. 

Mr. Mundt. Will you speak a httle louder, please. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. ..11,10 

Mr. Steedman. I want to know how far you went through school.^ 
Mr Gelvin My first 2 years in high school were m St. Louis, 
Mo., at the Soidan High School. My last 2 years were at a country 
high school at Monument, Colo. , ^ „ , „ , 1 u- 

I attended the Colorado Agricultural College for three and a half 

years. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8835 

Mr. Steedman. Did you graduate from the Colorado Agricultural 
CoUegp? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you plrase give the committee an outline of 
the most important positions you have held since your graduation 
find since you began working? 

Mr. Gelvin. After leaving college I worked for the State extension 
service for 5 years. 

Mr. Steedman. And for which State was that? 

Mr. Gelvin. Colorado; dairy extension work. 

I then went into the Indian Service in extension work — agricultural 
extension agent was the title of the position. 

Mr. Steedman. "When did you go with the Indian Service; what 
vear? 

Mr. Gelvin. 1939. 

Mr. Steedman. ^Miat was 3-our title? 

Mr. Gelvin. Agricultural extension agent. 

3ilr. Steedman. And what was your salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. $2,600 a year. I served as agricultural extension 
agent imtil December 1940. 

Mr. Steedman. And where did you perform those duties? 

Mr. Gelvin. Hickory Apache Indian Reservation in New Mexico 
for 6 years and Sells Indian Agency at Sells, Ariz., for a little less than 
3 years. 

I was then appointed as reservation superintendent of tlie Truxton 
Canyon Indian Agency in northern Arizona. 

In April— April 17, 1942, I was placed in my present position in the_ 
War Relocation project at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. And your last position with the Indian Service was 
that of superintendent at TriLxton, is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. ^^^[lat was your salary there? 

Mr. Gelvin. $3,500 per year. 

Mr. Steedman. Did that include quarters and subsistence? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, no. It didn't include subsistence. A charge 
was made for quarters. It was deducted from that salary. 

Mr. Steedman. $3,500 was your full salary for a year? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that was the gross salary. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated you accepted a position as 
assistant project manager at the wa relocation center at Poston in 
April 1942, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What are your duties and responsibilities at the 
Poston Relocation Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, as assistant to Mr. Head, the project director, 
I am responsible for assisting him in the management of the project. 
That covers so many duties it would be hard to outline them. 

Mr. Steedman. In short, you are the director of the project when 
Mr. Head is away, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Does all the administrative correspondence go 
over your desk? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, no; it does not. 



8836 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Air. Steedman. Wliat part of the administrative correspondence 
goe^ over your desk? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well^ when Mr. Head is on the project very httle of it 
goes over my desk. When he is away from the project most of it goes 
over my desk. 

May I further explain that hy stating that Mr. Empie, our chief 
administrative officer, generahy sends out correspondence over his 
own signature. 

Mr. Steedman. What I am getting at is what your duties are when 
Mr. Head is at the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. What phase of the work do you carry on? Do 
you administer anything? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, we do not have a direct hue of division in our 
work — that is, Mr. Head and I, but in general I work more with the 
appointed personnel — that is the Caucasian personnel, and the oper- 
ations of the project such as development of land, the public-works 
projects, while Mr. Head deals more with the Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have anything to do with employing the 
people who are employed at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. In some cases I would approve employment, acting 
on the recommendation of the branch chief who might be doing the 
employing. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the branch chief submit a requisition to you 
for a certain type of person and then you submit that to the Civil 
Service Commission? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; any application for employment is handled 
through regular civil-service channels and I act on the recommenda- 
tion, generally, of the branch chief. 

Mr. Steedman. Are all the white personnel at Poston civil-service 
employees? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe they are. I don't know of any excep- 
tions. 

Mr. Steedman. Let me see if I understand you. It is brought to 
your attention that a man is needed in the agricultural department? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. IVIr. Mathieson, who is the head of the Agricul- 
tural Department, advises you he needs a man, then do you request 
the Civil Service Commission to furnish you with a man who has the 
qualifications that Mr. Mathieson asks for? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe that is the general procedure of the 
personnel officer who handles that. He asks for an eligible list. 

Mr. Steedman. And that is under your general supervision? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is under my general supervision; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you directly responsible for that? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I would be responsible under Mr. Head for that. 

Mr. Steedman. At the present time you are responsible because 
Mr. Head is not at the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlien did Mr. Head go to Washington? 

Mr. Gelvin. He has been gone about 3 weeks. 

Mr. Steejman. Why did he go to Washington, do you know? 

Mr. Get.vin. He went for a conference called bv the Director of the 
W. R. A., Mr. Myers. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8837 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know the purpose of that conference? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the order requiriiio; Mr. Head to go to Wash- 
ington stale the purpose of the conference? 

Mr. Gelvin. I didn't see the order. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether other heads of centers were 
also called to Washington for this conference? Was this a general 
conference or was just Mr. Head ordered to Washington? 

Mr. Gelvin. It is my understanding that all of the project directors 
were called. 

Mr. Steedman. "VMiat is your present salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. $5,600 a year. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Indian Service loan you to the W. R. A.? 
■ Mr. Gelvin. I am still employed by the Indian Service. 

Mr. Steedman. You are stiil employed by the Indian Service? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Are j^ou paid from Indian Service funds? 

Mr. Gelvin. I am paid from funds that are transferred from the 
War Helocation Authority to the Indian Service for this particular 
project. Now, as to saymg if that is Indian Service funds, why, 1 
would rather you would ask Mr. Empie that when he comes in, be- 
cause he is the chief administrative officer and, of course, is much 
more familiar with the details of the accountmg than I am. 

— — 

Mr. Steedman. Do you consider ^''ou are working for the War Re- 
location Authority or are you working for the Indian Service? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have a dual responsibility. We work under the 
policies laid down by the War Relocation Authority but we still have 
a responsibility to the Indian Service inasmuch as we are still Indian 
Service employees in a technical sense of the word. 

Mr. Steedman. Does your present position carry more responsi- 
bility than the position you had as superintendent of the Indian 
project at Truxton? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that the reason for the $2,100-a-year increase 
in your salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. I assume that is it. 

Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Gelvin, is this $5,600 net or are your quarters 
deducted from that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I am charged for quarters. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever lived in the State of California? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I lived in the wState of Cahfornia w^hen I was 
a boy for about 5 months. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the approximate date? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Air. Steedman. You were quite young? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, it was a good man}^ years ago. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had any actual experience with the Jap- 
anese people? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; not until I went to Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made any study of the Japanese lan- 
guage? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Or Japanese customs? 



8838 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. I have tried to make a study in this way, attempting; 
to learn as much about Japanese customs as I could from talking with 
the Japanese people on the project. 

Mr. Steedman. But prior to going to Poston j^ou knew nothing 
about the Japanese people nor their customs? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words, the Japanese people and their 
customs and activities were strange to you? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the physical set-up of the 
war relocation project or center at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. The project was originally built to accommodate 
20,000 people. It is divided into 3 units— 3 camps. 

Camp No. 1 was built to accommodate 10,000 people and the other 
2 camps 5,000 people each. 

It is built on what we term the "block system." In each block 
there are 14 barracks and most of them are divided into 4 rooms. 
That would m.ake 56 rooms which are the rooms that the evacuees 
live in. In these blocks, in addition to the barracks, there are also 
mess halls where all the people in that particular block eat. 

There is a 20- by 100-foot building that is called a recreation hall 
which is an open barracks — that is there are no partitions in it. 

In the center of the block there is a men's latrine, a women's 
latrine, a laundry room, and an ironing roo"'ii. 

In camp No. 1 there are 36 of these blocks. In camps 2 and 3 
there are 18 m each camp. 

We get our water from deep wells which average around 220 feet 
deep. In camp No. 1 we have four such wells and deliver a capacity 
of about 800 gallons per minute each. 

At the other two camps we have two in each camp. 

Mr. Steedman. Who laid out the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. I understand the United States Army engineers. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the camp built under the jurisdiction and 
control of the Army engineers? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it built by contract? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the buildings of permanent construction? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have had our construction man tell me they would 
last approximately 4 years — possibly 5. 

Mr. Steedman. You are referring now to the barracks or to all the 
buildings? 

Mr. Gelvin. All of the buildings. 

Mr. Steedman. Does that include the administration buildings? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I am afraid it wouldn't. That is a little better 
type of building. 

Mr. Steedman. It is of more permanent construction? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think so; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the cost of building the war relocation 
center at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have never been told the exact cost of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. "V^Tio would have that information? 

Mr. Gelvin. The United States Engineers. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACIIVITIES 8839 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much himber was used in build- 
ing the project at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there any surplus lumber left when the 
Army engineers finished building the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; but I couldn't tell you how much. There was 
a little left that we purchased from them. 

Mr. Steedman. What did you do with it? 

Mr. Gelvin. We used it— let 7ne see a minute. There were some 
features of the project which needled additional w^ork, such as shelving 
in the warehouses, some of the warehouses; partitions in the adminis- 
tration buildmgs, in the offices. 

Mr. Steedman. Was any of this lumber destroyed by fire? 

Islr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge. 

]Mr. Steedman. Have you heard any of it was burned? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't a report in your files to the effect 
that this lumber was burned, or any part of it? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have never seen such a report; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Such a report has never come to your attention? 

Mr. Gelvin. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. Steedman. I say that has never come to your attention? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many of the buildings at Poston are air-con- 
ditioned? 

Mr. Gelvin. The administration buildings have desert coolers. 
The personnel quarters have desert coolers. We purchased one 
blower for each of the kitchens due to the terrific heat. We mounted 
them right over the stoves so as to blow away a part of that heat. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you laiow how much the air-conditioning equip- 
ment at Poston cost the Government? 

]Mr. Gelvin. I could not tell you the total cost; no, sir. 

Air. Steedman. What is the present total population of Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. 15,916, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. That represents a deduction in numbers from the 
high point, doesn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat was the maximmu number of people that 
were located at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. 17,800. I believe was the maximum number. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the administrative set-up 
of the camp, and I have in mind thje Caucasian or white personnel? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have the administration divided into what we call 
branches. There is the engineering or public works branch, commu- 
nity services branch — community services includes such thmgs as 
health, education, family welfare — such things as that. 

There is a branch of agriculture and industry headed by Mr. 
Mulliieson. 

The administrative branch is headed by Mr. Empie. 

Mr. Steedman. WTio is m charge of food and the mess at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Snelson. 

Mr. Steedman. What is Mr. Snelson's first name? 

Mr. Gelvin. C. E. Snelson. That is in the administrative branch. 



8840 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. What type of work was Mr. Snelson engaged in 
prior to his employment at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was chief steward at one of the assembly centers 
at Fresno, I believe — the Fresno assembly center. 

Mr. Steedman. Japanese assembly center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that while the center at Fresno was mider the 
control of the Army and being operated by the W. P. A.? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe that was operated by the W. C. C. A. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there some discussion at the present time as to 
whether or not it was operated by the W. P. A.? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have heard no discussion of it. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the W. P. A. ever 
operated the assembly centers? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. What does W. C. C. A. stand for? 

Mr. Gelvin. Western Civilian Control Admmistration. I believe 
that is correct. 

Mr. Mundt. Was that a voluntary set-up or a California set-up, or 
what was that? 

Mr. Gelvin. That was a project — not a project but a division -set 
up under the Western Defense Command for the handling of evacu- 
ations. 

Mr. Costello. Under direct Army supervision and control, was 
it not? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. Control of the military authorities? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it was military personnel or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, from the best information we can 
obtain with reference to the evacuation of the Japanese, I think that 
the Army ordered the Japanese out of the west coast area and the 
Army had the job of moving the Japanese from this area. We under- 
stand also that it was the Army's job to police the grounds enclosed 
and the W, P. A. was given the job of internal management inside of 
the reception centers such as Santa Anita and Fresno and the other 
assembly centers throughout this area. 

The W. R. A. took over from the War Department on April 17, 
1942. 

Returning to Mr. Snelson — did Mr. Snelson have any experience 
with Japanese prior to his present position? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he did or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Plad he ever lived in California? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, of course,* he lived in California at the time he 
was with the Fresno assembly center. I couldn't say — I wouldn't 
know what his past has been. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see his personnel papers when they came 
over your desk?. 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I/did not. 

Mr. SiEEDMAN. You did not see them? 

Air. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of the educational department at 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Dr. Miles Carey. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8841 

Mr. Steedman. l^id you have anything to do with employing Dr. 
Carey? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know where he came from to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvix. Yes; he came from Honohihi. 

^Ir. Steedman. Do you know why he came here from Honolulu? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I do not. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he had previous experience with Japanese 
there? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was principal of the McKinley High School. 

Mr. Steedman. He was employed due to the fact that he had been 
in the islands and had experience with Japanese, isn't that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; and on his reputation as an educator. 

Mr. MuNDT. Where did he get his Doctor's degree? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. sir. He is a Ph.D. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of medical, care at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Dr. Pressman. 

Mr. Steedman. What are his initials; do you know? 

Mr. Gelvin. Abraham. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know where he went to school? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he had any experience with the Japanese 
prior to coming to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think not. He was an Indian Service employee 
transferred. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of relocation at Poston? 

Mr: Gelvin. Explain that question a little further. Just what do 
you mean by that? 

Mr. Steeidman. I mean who is taking charge at the present time of 
relocating evacuees in the middle west and on the east coast? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Giles Zimmerman . 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about Mr. Zimmerman's 
background? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Zimmerman came to us from the American 
Friends' Service Committee. I understand that he has had con- 
siderable experience with what is termed — ^what is the term used for 
people coming over from other countries? 

Mr. Steedman. Do you mean refugees? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, refugees. WMe he was wdth this Service Com- 
mittee he had experience, but as to whether he has any direct experi- 
ence with Japanese, I couldn't say. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see his personnel papers when they came 
over your desk? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And j^ou had nothing to do with selecting Mr. 
Zimmerman? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir, 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Zimmerman is from St. Louis, isn't he? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't think so. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't think he is? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he is or not; I coulchi't tell you. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't know whether he went to Washington 
University in St. Louis? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 



8842 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Would his personnel record indicate that fact? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes; I think it would. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of the personnel records at 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. C. H. Smith. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he been employed by the Indian Service prior 
to going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Smith? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

]Vlr. Steedman. Returning again to Mr. Zimmerman, you say he 
was associated with the Friends' Service; is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the background of 
the organization known as Friends' Service? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. It is a Quaker organization, is it not? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe it is. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it a pacifist organization? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say whether it is or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, do you investigate the organizations which 
operate inside of the center and who are in contact with the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. The War Relocation Authority in Washington does 
that. 

Air. Steedman. But you do not do that at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Such committees as the American Friends' Service 
Committee does not operate in the camp unless they have the approval 
of the War Relocation Authority office in Washington. 

Mr. Steedman. But the local administrator at Poston has nothing 
to say about who shall come into the center? I mean from the stand- 
point of issuing passes and permits. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; all the passes to go into the camp are issued by 
the project director. 

Mr. Steedman. But occasionally in such a case as the American 
Friends' Service, you get an order from Washington to give a repre- 
sentative of that organization permission to enter the center, is that 
correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. If we had any reason to feel that that organization 
should not be on the project, we would voice our objection with the 
W^ashington office. 

Air. Steedman. Do you investigate all the organizations that come 
to you for admittance to the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. We don't do it personally, no. 

Mr. Steedman. Who does? 

AJr. Gelvin. The War Relocation Authority office in Washington. 

Mr. Steedman. Is Mr. Zimmerman setting up so-called hostels 
throughout the Aliddle West? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; he isn't doing it. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is doing it? 

Air. Gelvin. The American Friends' Service Committee, I under- 
stand, have some. I couldn't tell you how many. And T believe 
another church organization. 

Mr. Steedman. What is the purpose of these hostels? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8843 

Mr. Gelvin. It is one of the stops in relocation. For instance, 
they will take a person in one of these hostels, one of the evacuees, 
one of the Japanese and help him fiiul a job; help him or her find a job. 
The theory is that to get the evacuee and the prospective employer 
together and arrange for the employment of the evacuee. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat really happens is this, isn't it, that the Jap- 
anese are released in care of tlie hostels m the various cities throughout 
the Middle West, and then they live in these hostels until such time 
as the}^ find employment? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. But they are released without having first secured 
emplo3^meiit? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

IVIr. Steedman. Are they released in charge of the hostels? 

Mr. Gelvin. They are released to the hostel and the fact is reported 
to the nearest relocation officer. This relocation officer is an employee 
of the War Relocation Authority. They have relocation officers in 
many of the cities throughout the Middle West and East. 

Mr. Steedman. ^^Tiose idea was that, do you know? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I couldn't tell you whose idea it was. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Japanese have been released from 
Poston to date? 

Mr. Gelvin. In the neighborhood of 2,000. 

Mr. CosTELLO. May I ask a question there? Who finances these 
hotels? Are they financed by the churches or does the War Relocation 
Authority pay the expenses of the Japanese while they are in the 
hostel? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't telhyou. I believe they are financed by 
the church organization. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you pay the expenses of the Japanese when they 
leave the center and go to these hostels? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you give them $50 each when they leave, the 
camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. If he applies for it and states he has no money of his 
own. 

Mr. Steedman. Does he have to pay that back? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, su*. 

Mr. Steedman. That is a gift from the Government? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Together with a railroad ticket to wherever he 
wants to go? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. v'^teedman. Have you had any Japanese who have gone out and 
received $50, return to the center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have had returns. We haven't had any 
retui-ns that I know of of people to whom this cash grant has been 
given. 

Mr. Steedman. If there were returns of Japanese to whom cash 
grants had been given, would you give them another cash grant? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Just one cash grant is all that anv one Japanese is 
entitled to? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 



8844 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. What are the mechanics for releasmg an evacuee? 
What I mean by that is, How does a Japanese in the center at Poston 
go about getting out? 

Mr. Gelvin. He makes apphcation to the leave office. His appU- 
cation is investigated to determine whether he is eligible to leave, 

Mr. Steedman. Right at that point I would like to ask you a 
question: Wlio conducts the investigation of the evacuee who makes 
application for leave? 

Mr. Gelvin. The personnel in the leave office. 

Mr. Steedman. The personnel in the leave office? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. How many people are employed in j^our leave 
office at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. In the leave and employment office there are six 
appointed personnel. 

Mr. Steedman. And do these six .appointed personnel investigate 
the propriety of releasing the individual Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct, to a certain point. 

Mr. Steedman. How many employees are in the leave office? 

Mr. Gelvin. They have four men and two women. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you name these people? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Giles Zimmerman is the chief of that division, 
Mr. Ed Nossoif. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his title and salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. His title is assistant chief, of emplovment; his salary 
is $3,200. 

Mr. Steedman. Had Mr. Nossoff had any experience with the 
Japanese prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe Mr. Nossoff had had experience. 

Mr. Steedman. Where? 

Mr. Gelvin. Let me finish. 

Mr. Steedman. All right. 

Mr. Gelvin. Had had some experience with Japanese in the Salt 
River Valley around Plioenix. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you finished? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; pardon me. 

Mr. Steedman. That is all right. Had Mr. Nossofl' had any 
investigative experience, before going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what there is in his background that 
would qualify him to pass on these Japanese who want to be relocated 
in the ]Vli<.ldle West and on the east coast? 

Mr. Gelvin. Infoimation that we have assembled at the project. 
We have what we call a stop list of people who are not eligible to leave. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that stop list prepared b}" Mr. Zimmerman's, 
office? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not altogether; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. It is a compilation of inform.ation? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. And evidence? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. And you make up your stop list from that informa- 
tion? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8845 

Mr. Steedman. You said that Mr. Zimmerman was in charge and 
Mr. Nossoff was second in charge. Will you name the next man in 
line? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Ralph Dreiman. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his title and salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. Leave officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Salarv? 

Mr. Gelvin. $3,200, 1 believe. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliere had he worked prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. lie was recruited through the civil service. He was 
personnel officer for some large company in Cairo, Egypt, for several 
years. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he had any experience with Japanese before 
going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't think so. 

Mr. Steedman. Now, who is the No. 4 man? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. John Hunter. 

Mr. Steedman. And his title and salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't give you his correct title. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he had any experience in the investigative 
field before going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; he came out of the Indian Service. 

Mr. Steedman. And had had no experience with the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. No. 5 would be a woman, wouldn't it? You said 
there were four men and two women? 

Mr. Gelvin. Let me do a little checking here to make sure I am 
giving voii absolutelv accurate information. Mr. Hunter is assistant 
leave officer at $2,300 a year. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about his background? 

Mr. Gelvin. lie was transferred to us from the Indian Service. 
He has been in the Indian Service a great many years. 

Mr. Steedman. What age man is Mr. Hunter? 

Mr. Gelvin. He must be about 45. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please name the other two employees in 
the leave office or in that section? 

Mr. Gelvin. Dorothy M. Stevick. Her title is assistant director 
of employment, $2,900. May I make a correction there in Mr. 
Nossoff's title. His title is senior administrative assistant. 

Mr. Mundt. While you are on Nossoff agaip, will you explain 
what he was doing in the Salt River Valley prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think he was with the TJnited States Employment 
Service. 

Mr. Steedman. He had possibly seen some Japanese down in the 
Salt River Valley? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. And Mary M. Ataloa, assistant leave officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat nationality is she? 

Ml-. Gelvin. She is part Indian. 

Mr. Steedman. \Miat is her title? 

Mr. Gelvin. She is assistant leave officer. 

Mr. Steedman. And salarv? 

Mr. Gelvin. $2,300. 

Mr. Steedman. There are six people in this section who handle 
the investigation of evacuees who are to be released? 

62026 — 43— vol. 15 2 



8846 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you have already stated that 2,000 had 
been released since the project started; is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman, Over what period of time have those 2,000 been 
released? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is since the project started — since the project 
was started. 

Mr. StePjDman. How many are you releasing 

Mr. Gelvin. Let me explain that a httle bit further. That 2,000 
is the number that is out at the present time. There have been more 
than that released on what we call "seasonal work leave" who have 
returned; so altogether there have probably been 3,500 that have been 
released and the difference between the 2,000 and the 3,500 are those 
who have returned from seasonal work. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, the 2,000 are what you call permanently 
away from the camp on permanent leave; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; the 2,000 includes those on permanent leave and 
those who are out on seasonal leave at the present time. 

Mr, Steedman. At this time? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman, How many are out on permanent leave for reloca- 
tion in the IVIiddle West and the East? 

Mr. Gelvin. There are about 900 on permanent leave and about 
1,100 on seasonal leave. 

Mr. Steedman. Over what period of time have these 900 been 
released permanently? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is since the start of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact these people on permanent 
leave have been released lately; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. The most of them have, I would say, in the last 3 or 
4 months. 

Mr. Steedman. And these six people, four men and two women, 
have handled all the investigations and cleared the 900 who have been 
released over the last 6 months; is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is true; they have handled the leave section 
there. 

Mr. Steedman. That keeps them pretty busy, doesn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. They handle other work in that particular branch too, 

Mr. Steedman. They handle other work in addition to that? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes! 

Mr. Steedman. And they handle all the investigations of these 
evacuees who make application for leave? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I wouldn't say that. 
• Mr. Steedman. A'STio does make those investio'ations then? 

IVIr. Gelvin.' We have an internal secu -l'.^ officer who handles in- 
vestigative work and he turns in" any information that he might gather. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the internal security officer? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. MiUer. 

Mr. Steedman. W^iat is his full name? 

Mr. Gelvin. E. L. Miller. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his title? 

Mr. Gelvin. Cliief internal security. 

Mr, Steedman. And his salary? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8847 

Mr. Gelvin. $3,SU0. 

Mr. Steedman. Bid he have any previous experience with the Jap- 
anese before going to Toston? 

.Mr. Gelvin. He was with the San Francisco police force before 
coining to us. 

Mr. Steedman. Then he had some experience with the Japanese? 
Mr. Gelvin. He must have had some, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. VTho actually takes the responsibility for releasing 
the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. In the final analysis the project director approves the 
release permit. 

Mr. Steedman. And the project director is responsible for the in* 
vestigation of eacli evacuee, isn't that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. The project director is responsible for all the work on 
the project — all of the functions of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. And he assumes the responsibility for the release 
of the evacuees and the investigation of each evacuee; is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. He assumes the responsibility insofar as the investi- 
gation that is included on the project. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you please explain to the committee just 
how you go about investigating each case? 

Mr. Gelvin. First, as I said awhile ago, an individual hands in his 
application for leave. That is checked with the stop list which vv^e 
have. 

Mr. Steedman. Does this stop list contain information that you 
have gathered on the Japanese since they went to Postoii? 

Mr. Gelvin. Most of it is — some of it. Some of the names there 
have been placed there on advice of the Washington office. 

Mr. Steedman. "Washington office? 

Air. Gelvin. Washington office of the W. R. A.; jes. 

Mr. Steedman. And you obtained information from the various 
Japanese about other Japanese, is that right, about their loyalty and 
their attitude toward the United States? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have gotten some information from them. 

Mr. Steedman. And that information is entered on your so-called 
stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. If the evidence is such that the project director feels 
it should be placed on the stop list it is. 

Mr. Steedman. And the project director passes on that, does he? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not altogether; on the stop list, you mean? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. There are certain qualifications — certain regulations 
that we have. If a person has, for instance, applied for repatriation to 
Japan, we automatically place him on the stop list. 

Mr. Steedman. Tliat should automaticall)' place him on the stop 
list ; don't you think? 

Mr. Gelvin. I should think so. 

Mr. Mundt. Will you list five or six other characteristics that will 
place a man's name on the stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. When we had our general registration of all the people 
on the project over 17 years old, those who did not give an unqualified 
affirmative answer to what we speak of as question ''28" which was the 
loyalty question, those are automatically placed on the stop list. 



8848 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Those questionnaires have all gone into Washington and through 
their nivestigation in Washington if they find evidence against an 
individual, through various sources of information that they might 
have, why, they have notified us to place that individual on the stop list. 

If an individu.al has had difficulty with — if he has violated the law or 
committed some crime, why, he is placed on the stop list. 

Mr. AIuNDT. You mean since he has been in the center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; he is placed on the stop list. Then if we get a 
report from a hospital, for instance, that a person was mentally 
unbalanced and they didn't feel he should go out into the normal 
channels, he woidd be placed on the stop list. 

Those are the main things. 

Mr. MuNDT. May I pursue tnis a little further? About how many 
people do you have on your stop list all together, of the fifteen or 
seventeen thousand Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. We must have close to — .^ 

Mr. MuNDT. Are those — — — ^ kept in separate barracks some 
place? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Or do they intermingle with the rest of the people 
in the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. They are not segregated in any way? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. / 

Mr. MiTNDT. That is all. 

Mr. vSteedman. You know they are bad but still you don't segre- 
gate them; is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't know that they are bad. 

Mr. Steedman. You have them on the stop list. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Might I interrupt at this point? I think it might 
be well if the press withheld any publication as to the number that 

appear on the stop list. I will request the number ^ be off the 

record . 

Mr. Gelvin. I prefer to give you an accurate figure on that. I 
am making an estimate now about the number. 

Mr. CosTELLO. I feel it would not be well to publish that figure. 

Mr. MuNDT. You mean the figure — ^ is not defuiitely accurate? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. CosTELLo. That is an approximate figure? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Mundt. But you are sure about the fact that they are not 
segregated? 

Mr. Gelvin. I am sure about that; yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. To what extent do they check on the past history 
of the individual cases? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. You have a record, I sup])ose, of the prior history 
of the Japanese before they were brought to the camp. Is there any 
investigation made of their prior history? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have no records of that. Any investigation that 
is carried on with regard to that is carried on in the W^ashington office. 

As I say, all these questionnaires have been submitted to the Wash- 
ington office. - 

' Number stricken from the record, as roquosfeii by Chairmau Cost'llo. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8849 

Mr. CosTELLO. So far as you know or so far as the camp is con- 
cerned, no attempt is made to determine the past I)istory of the 
individual prior to his being evacuated from his original home? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not from our standpoint in the camp. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Tlie Japanese uiay be released regardless oi what 
their historj^ was or what the)^ may have been doing prior to being 
assembled in the camp? 

Air. Gelvin. If they do not fit into any of the categories which 
would automatically eliminate them, such as application for repatria- 
tion and things like that. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Take for instance a person who may have been 
employed in a consular ofEce or engaged in some definitely pro- 
Japanese activity here on the Pacific coast prior to Pearl Harbor, jou 
Avould have no record of that in the center or in your notes regarding 
these people? 

Mr. Gelvin. I would assume that if he was employed in a consular 
ofRce, he would be in an internment camp. 

Of- course, we had access to these forms when they were filled out 
and I am quite sure that if they had been employed in that category, 
and it came to our attention, it w^ould have been further investigated 
and reported to the ^Yashington office. 

Air. Costello. a girl might have been employed as a stenographer 
or secretary or something of that kind in a consular office. 

Mr. Gelvin. That is true. 

Mr. Costello. But you would have no specific record of that 
activity? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes; we would have that on our census form. We 
conducted a census there and we would have that information. 

Air. Costello. The census form? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. Costello. Does that give information regarding the prior 
activities of the Japanese? 

Air. Gelvin. Past employment. 

Air. Costello. But the principal source of your information is the 
census form and the questiomiaire, both of which were filled out 
voluntarily by the Japanese, concerning themselves? 
. Air. Gelvin. That is right. 

Air. Costello. You may proceed with the questioning, Air. Steed- 
man. 

Air. Steedman. Does the census form indicate the organizations to 
which the particular Japanese belonged before Pearl Harbor? 

Air. Gelvin. I am not sure whether the census form mcludes that 
or not; the registration forms which we use do include that. 

Mr. Steedman. Would that indicate to you that a certain Japanese 
was an official in the Central Japanese Association prior to Pearl 
Harbor? 

Air. Gelvin. Novr, will you give me that question again? 

Air. Steedman. The question was this: Does the form indicate 
whether or not an individual Japanese was an official in the Central 
Japanese Association prior to Pearl Harbor? 

Air. Gelvin. The form asks that question. I can't remember just 
what the exact wording is, but it asks whether or not the}^ belonged — 
what organizations they have belonged to. Alayjje you have a copy 
of that form; it is No. 304-A. 



8850 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any exoIEtlal of the Japanese Asso- 
ciation at Poston at the present time? 

Mr. Gelvin. I beheve we have two. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know who they are? 

Mr. Gelvin. ^ From a hst that was left there by the two investiga- 
tors who were at the project recently. We found two members on 
that. \^liether they were officers or not, I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Steedman. Going back again to the release of the evacuees. 
Do you know where the evacuees who have been released are at the 
present time? 

Mr. Gelvin. The evacuees? We have their address of where they 
went to. That is in the hands — that is in the fdes of the relocation 
ofTicer in whichever area they have gone to and any changes of ad- 
dress are supposed to be reported to the relocation officer who in turn 
reports it to us. 

Mr. Steedman. And when the evacuee leaves the center at Poston, 
he is no longer a responsibility of the Poston relocation center; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. He becomes then a responsibility of the relocation 
officer in the area to which he is going? 

Mr. Gelvin. Now, just how far does the term "responsibility" go? 

Mr. Steedman. I mean he is free and able to do whatever he wants 
to do after he leaves Poston. 

Mr. Gelvin. A person going out on an indefinite leave is obligated 
to accept tlic job that he has gone to. 

Mr. Steedman. That is only a moral obligation; isn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. If he doesn't accept the job, the relocation officer 
investigates and finds out why. However, that doesn't make it 
binding, that he stay with that job. He is free to take another job 
if he wants to. 

Mr. Steedman. And the only obligation of the evacuee is that he 
notify the relocation center or relocation officer of a change of 
address; is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe that is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that the W. R. A. can put its hands 
on each individual Japanese that has been released from the relocar- 
tion center? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they can or not. 

Air. Steedman. Do you have any information regarding the 
manner in which the Japanese are complying with your instructions 
to keep the Employment Office informed of their whereabouts? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you receive a copy of the address of the evacuee 
from the Employment Office when he sends in a change of address?" 

Mr. Gelvin. Do you mean does the project get a change of address? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that comes into our employment office if there 
is any change of address. 

Mr. Steedman. Where do you maintain these employment offices? 

Mr. Gelvin. You mean the project employment office? 

Mr. Steedman. No, the employment offices throughout the 
country? 

Mr. Gelvin. The relocation offices? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8851 

Mr'. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvtx. Oh. I can name you quite a few. I don't know 
whether I can name all of them or not. . 

Mr. Steedman. Name the ones that you can recall. 

Mr. Gflvin. Salt Lake City, Denver, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, 
Kansas City, St. Louis, Lincoln, Nebr. I believe those are all \ can 
call offhand. However, I am quite sure there are more than that — 
Billings, Mont. — I believe there is one there. 

Mr. Steedman. Do 3^011 know what percentage of the evacuees who 
have been released are aliens? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, su-; I can't give you that figure'. 

Air. Steedman. You are releasing aliens though, aren't you? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And ui the same manner m which you are releasmg 
citizens? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; not exactly in the same manner. There are 
more restrictions in this way: When an alien is released it is reported 
to the L^nited States attorney m whichever area they have gone into, 
and they have to conform to the regulations concernmg any aliens in 
this countiy. Diu-ing wartime they are more strict than at other 
times. 

Mr. Mundt. Aside from that, providing the man is not on the 
stop list, it is just as easy for an alien to be released as it is a citizen, 
so far as getting out of the camp is concerned? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. !MuNDT. Does he get the same $50 from the relocation center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. That was the reason I hesitated. I was 
trying to tliink of any additional regulations concerning aliens. 

Mr. Steedman. \Mio is in charge of the community government at 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I assume you mean employed personnel who work 
with the communitv government? 

Mr. Steedman. That is right. 

Mr. Gelvin. In each of the tlu-ee units we hav(» a camp manager 
or a unit administrator, as they call them, and he works with the 
community government in whichever camp it happens to be. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlio is in actual charge of the community welfare 
and recieation department for the entire center? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is under the community service branch. Miss 
Nell Findley was the branch chief but she has resigned. 

Mr. Sieedman. \Mien did she resign? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe it was effective the 1st of June. 

Mr. Steedman. The 1st of June this year? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; recently. 

Mr. Steedman. \\liat were her duties? 

Mr. Gelvin. She had under her, in her department, the family 
welfare, community activities, recreation, health, education. 

Mr. Steedman. ^Miere had she been employed prior to coming to 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Honolulu. 

Mr. Steedman. Did she come over to the mainland with Dr. 
Carey? 

Air. Gelvin. No; she came over prior to Dr. Carey. 



8852 UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Had she been associated with Dr. Carey in Hon- 
ohihi? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not in an ofRcial capacity. I think they were 
acquainte'd with each other's work there — the natm-e of their work. 
They had contacts with each other. 

Mr. Steedman. Has Miss Findley been in social welfare work for 
some time? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, she has. 

Mr. CosTELLO. What work did she do in Honolulu? 

Mr. Gelvin. At the time she came over she was in charge of a 
phase of the U. S. O. work in Honolulu. Now, whether she was in 
complete charge of the U. S. O. there or not, I don't know. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How long had she lived in Honolulu, do you know? 

Mr. Gelvin. She had been there a number of j^ears; I wouldn't say. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know what her activities were prior to her 
connection with the U. S. O.? 
' Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

A-Ir. CosTELLO. Did she have any particular vocation? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was she a teacher or something of that sort? 

Mr. Gelvin. She was a social welfare worker; that is her back- 
ground. ^ 

Mr. Costello. You may proceed, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. She had had some experience with the Japanese 
over in the islands? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; she had. 

Mr. Costello. Do you know why she resigned from the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, she resigned for personal reasons; to go back to 
Honolulu. 

Mr. Costello. Returning to Honolulu? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Air. Costello. Has she returned yet, do you know? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say. I believe that she has, tliough, but I 
wouldn't — I haven't heard for sure whether she has left or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see her p^ersonnel papers when they came 
into the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know who recommended her for employ- 
ment there? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think she was recommended by Mr. John 
Collier, Commissioner of Indian Affairs. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have a list of the employees of the Poston 
Relocation Center with you today? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you furnish the committee a copy of that list? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. [Handing paper to Mr. Steedman.] 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have marked as an 
exhibit a list of the persomiel at the Poston Relocation Center, which 
includes the title of the positions, the name of the employee, grade, 
and salary. 

Mr. Costello. What is the date of that? 

Mr. Steedman. The date of the list is June 1, 1943. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8853 

Mr. CosTELLO. It will be made a part of the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Gelvin Exhibit No. 1," 
and received in evidence.) 

Mr. Mttndt. Now, that you have mentioned Mr. Collier, I wonder 
if you will olaborat;^ a little more as to the nature of the dual re- 
spou'^ihilities whieh you have in your capacity, with the War Reloca- 
tion Authority and the Indian Service? You said earlier you had a 
"dual responsibility." 

Mr. Gelvin. ^\ell, we, as I stated, are employed by the Indian 
Service. This particular project was worked out with an agreement 
with the Indian Service and the War Relocation Authority. 

Due to the fact that this was located right in the center of land 
that the Indian Service had established long-time plans for to develop 
this Colorado River irrigation project, the policies regarding the 
development of the project — that is the development of the land, 
were worked out between Mr. Collier — that is Mr. Collier repre- 
senting the Interior Department, and Mr. Eisenhower, who was at 
that time Director of the War Relocation Authority, so it was felt 
that the two services w^orking together in that particular project 
would be advantageous. 

However, we have not been able to develop the land as had been 
originally planned — that is in the quantities that had been planned. 
However, with regard to the actual operation of the camp itself, 
why, of course, we work under the rules and regulations and the 
policies laid down by the ^^'ar Relocation Authority. 

Mr. MuNDT. Aside from the development of the land and possibly 
to advise as to phj'sical equipment that was put on it, does the Indian 
Service exercise any other authority over the camp or do you have 
any other responsibilities to the Imlian Service? 

Mr. Gelvin. We are working under the general Indian Service 
accounting regulations; as for the general policies, no. I would say no. 

There are certain features like I mentioned, the accounting, fiscal 
and accounting divisions. 

]\Ir. MuxDT. There is no dual responsibility or division of authority 
insofar as policies, for example, in letting these Japanese out of the 
camp, or whether they are going to be segregated in separate barracks? 

Mr. Gelvix. No, sir. 

Mr. MuxDT. It deals only with accounting and agricultural prac- 
tices and possibl^^ the physical equipment? 

Mr. Gelvix. That is right. The Indian Service has given us 
assistance in setting up the school program and such things as that. 

Mr. MuxDT. This land used to be part of an Indian reservation? 

Mr. Gelvix. Yes; it is right in the center of the Colorado Indian 
Reservation. 

Mr. Costello. But the actual direction of the center and the control 
of the people there is entirely under the War Relocation Authority? 

Mr. Gelvix. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. And the Indian Service is only interested in how 
the ground is employed that belongs to the reservation? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. The Indian Service is more or less, I 
guess you would use the term., "a cooperating agency." 



8854 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. They have no direction or control over how you 
will operate the center? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a moment to the chief 
steward. Did you investigate the background of Mr. Snelson? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we didn't. He was recommended to us by the 
W. C. C. A. and by the War Relocation Authority offices in San 
Francisco at the tune we employed him. Upon receivmg their recom- 
mendation, we api3roved their recommendation and employed him. 

Mr. Steedman. I notice you have his name entered on your per- 
sonnel chart here as Clifton E. Snelson. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what his middle name is? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether it is Earle? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't know whether this is Earle Snelson or 
not? 

Air. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have his personnel record at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you furnish us the mformation as to 
whether or not his middle name is "Earle"? 

Mr. Gelvin. Could I furnish that information? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the total montUy salaries paid the 
administrative personnel at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I haven't it. I think Mr. Empie can probably 
give you that. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie will be able to testify as to the cost of 
the administration? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. As far as salaries are concerned? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. And you wanted also the middle name of 
Mr. Snelson? 

Mr. Steedman. That is right. And I also want to know whether 
or not you carried on an investigation mto his background prior to 
his going to Poston? 

Mr, Gelvin. No; we didn't do it there on the project; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Civil Service carry on an mvestigation 
into his backgroimd? 

Mr. Gelvin. You would have to check with the Civil Service 
Commission on that. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Civil Service Commission furnish you 
with a result of their investigation of each employee that you em- 
ployed there? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they furnish us, I believe, with a form showing 
their past employment and information of that kind. 

Mr. Steedman. But you have never asked the Civil Service Com- 
" mission to conduct an investigation on Mr. Snelson, have you? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; not to run a specific investi- 
gation on him. 



I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8855 

Mr. Steedman. Have you asked it as to any of the other employees? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Eberharter. May I ask a question? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Eberharter. 

Mr. Eberharter. Was he interviewed by anybody at Poston 
before he was employed, or did he just come in cold? 

Mr. Gelvin. He came in subject to our approval. That is, we 
were without a chief steward and the W. R. A. oflBce in San Francisco 
arranged for his services and sent hun right down to us, subject to 
our approval as to his efficiency on the job. 

Mr. Eberharter. And at that tune did somebody interview him 
before he was put to work? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, yes; Mr. Enrpie, the chief administrative officer, 
i n t er vie wed him . 

^fr. Eberharter. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please explain the set-up of the Japanese 
•community government inside the center? 

Mr. Gelvin. The council — that is the term used for it — the com- 
munity council is elected by the people, by the evacuees. They 
elect one representative from each block and that representative can 
be either Issei or Nisei. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the percentages of the leaders — and 
I am speaking of the block leaders — who are Nisei? 

Mr. Gelvin. It is about half and half. 

Mr. Steedman. About half are alien and about half are citizens? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. Mitndt. Does that mean he cannot be a Sonsei, or don't you 
have any Sonsei in the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, a Sonsei — there wouldn't be any old enough. 

yiv. Mundt. They are childi-en? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. And of course, the term "Kibei" that Mr. 
Steedman referred to, technically he is a Nisei. 

Mr. Steedman. You say they are divided about half and half, 
Issei and Nisei? 

Mr.' Gelvin. Yes.- 

Mr. Steedman. Did you include the Kibei in the Nisei group when 
you made the answer? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I don't know just how^ many of the Nisei are 
Kibei though, in that group. We just had a recent election and, in 
fact, I just gave them the oath of office just prior to coming over here. 

Mr. Steedman. How many block leaders do you have? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there are 36 in unit 1, 15 in unit 2, and 17 in 
unit 3. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you furnish the committee with a list of the 
Kibei who are block leaders? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Can a man become a block leader and be on your 
«top list? 

Air. Gelvin. If he has not given an unqualified affirmative answer 
of loyalty to question 28 on his Selective Service form, Form No. 
304-A, he will not be approved as a block leader by the project 
director. 

Mr. Steedman. But he could be on your stop list and still be a 
block leader, couldn't he? 



8856 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. He could, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. If he was elected to that position? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is ri2:ht. He might have applied for repatriation. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any block leaders who have applied 
for repatriation? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; I would have to check that. 

Mr. Steedman. T\'ill you furnish the committee with that informa- 
tion? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. Will this information that you request, will it 
be in the record or do you want me to keep a record of it? 

Mr. Steedman. You can furnish the committee that information in 
the form of a letter. 

Mr. Gelvin. What I mean is, do you want me to keep track of the 
information that you want? 

Mr. Steedman. I wish you would. 

Mr. Gelvin. Now, so far you would like the middle name of Mr. 
Snelson; you woidd like a list of the Kibei who are on the council, is 
that correct? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. Is the War Relocation Authority center at 
Poston near adequate water supply? 

Mr. Gelvin. What kind of water supply do you mean? 

Mr. Steedman. How do you obtain water at the Poston center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Domestic Wfter or nrigation water? 

Mr. Steedman. Irrigation. 

Mr. Gelvin. Comes from the Colorado River. 

Mr. MuNDT. The list of matters about which you are going to 
inform the committee, have you included the names of the block 
leaders who have asked for repatriation? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. MuNDT. Will you put that down? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese inside the center have a swimming- 
pool? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many swimming pools do they have? 

Mr. Gelvin. Two — no, wait a minute — two in unit 1 and one in unit 
2, which are just wide places in the canal that goes through the camp. 

Mr. Steedman. There is one swimming pool that you built for the 
Japanese, isn't there? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we have — ^let me go ahead and explain that a 
little further. 

Mr. Steedman. All right, go ahead and explain it. 

Air. Gelvin. The two pools that are referred to as ''swimming 
pools" in unit 1 are wide ponds, you might call them, in the canal. 
The canal comes down and it is widened out and it goes on — ^flows 
through the two pools. In unit 2 they have a more elaborate swim- 
ming pool which was constructed, mostly with volunteer labor. The 
people wanted the swimming pool and pitched in and dug it out and 
the canal flows tlu"ough it the same as it does the other two, but it is 
a much better type of pool than the other ones. 

Mr. Steedman. Are those swiinming pools used exclusively by the 
evacuees? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, the appointed personnel can swim there if they 
want to. It is not restricted. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8857 

Mr. Steedman. Do they? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have never seen them. 

Mr. Steedman. Was this irrigation system that you have referred 
to, built to serve the center at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. It is part of the long range plan of development that 
the Indian Service had for the development of that entire valley 
down through there — that is of the land on the reservation. Most of 
it has been built smce the project was established there, however, 

Mr. Steedman. You say it is part of the long-range plan? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Had the plans been made prior to the evacuation 
of the Japanese from this coast? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Had 3^ou seen the plans prior to that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I have not seen the plans. I have discussed 
them with several. 

Our chief engineer, Mr. Rupkey, is thoroughly familiar with it be- 
cause he was the irrigation engineer at the Colorado River Indian 
irrigation project prior to the War Relocation Authority. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Indians of this reservation are there at 
Parker? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I don't know — I could give you a guess. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, approximately. 

Mr. Gelvin. Around 700. 

Mr. Steedman. And the Indian Service had planned to build this 
large irrigation system for those 700 Indians? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. \Vliat was it planned for? 

Mr. Gelvin. The plan was to move Indians into that reservation 
after the project had been developed, from the other reservations of 
the Southwest, which are overpopulated and cannot adequately sup- 
port themselves on the other reservations where they were. 

Those reservations included the Pima Reservation, the Pago, the 
San Carlos Apache Reservation, the White River Apache Reserva- 
tion, the Navajo Reservation, the United Pueblos, Hopi Reservation, 
the Truxton Canyon Reservation. I believe that is about all. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The program of development then was a part of 
the Indian Bureau's own program to build up a big Indian develop- 
ment in this area? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it was a colonization project. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But the irrigation system had not been completed 
nor put in at the time the Japanese were placed there? 

Mr. Gelvin. A portion of it was; yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have the Japanese been employed in developing 
that irrigation system? 

Mr. Gelvin. The irrigation system — well, let me explain a little 
further. The upper end of the reservation has already been developed 
and is occupied by the present Colorado River Indians. Now, that 
irrigation system is complete up there. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Then this is an extension that the Japanese put in? 

!Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; this is an extension from where they left off. 

'Mr. Costello. And the purpose of that was so they could cultivate 
the land adjacent to their camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct; yes, sir. 



8858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

« 

Mr. CosTEi.LO. Are any of those l?nds now under actual cultiva- 
tion? 

Mr. Gelvin. "We have crops or, we have about 300 acres of crops 
at the present time. "We have approximately 1,000 acres which are 
ready for crops. 

The crops v.ve not in because it is too late now to put them in. 
"We are just in the process of finishing up the development on that, and' 
we plan on having about thirteen or fourteen hundred acres ready by 
fall to put in fall crops. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are those 300 acres sufficient to supply vegetables 
and things of that sort for the Japanese themselves? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; they don't supply all of the vegetables. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is it your intention ultimately th{ t the crops pro- 
duced there will be sold in the market? 

Mr. Gelvin. "Well, our first intention is to try and make the project 
as near self-supporting fs possible and then any surplus crops that 
we have after we reach the point where we are self-supporting, then 
it will be determined whether the Army shall have it, but I assume 
that will be dealt with by the War Relocation Authority in Washington 
as to the policy regarding surplus crops. 

Mr. MuNDT. Who is paying for that extension? Who is paying for 
the extension of the irrigation system? The Indian Office or the 
W. R. A.? 

Mr. Gelvin. Tiie W. R. A. 

Mr. MuNDT. May I ask, Do the IncHan tribes which own this land 
get a rental or something for the use of it by the W. R. A.? In the 
first place are they tribal lands that are being occupied? 

Mr. Gelvin. They are tribal lands, yes. No; I don't believe they 
get any rent. I think the development of the land was figured to 
oft'set that. 

Mr. MuNDT. The development of the land is supposed to be their 
compensation? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you submit figures to Mr. Dillon Myer in 
Washington, stating that you would plant 706 acres in vegetables this 
year? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I expect we did. We were makuig estimates 
along earlier in the year what our possible acreage might be and I 
believe that is the figure. 

Mr. Steedman. But you actually planted 300 acres? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Why did you not plant the 706 acres that you 
reported would be planted? 

Mr. Gelvin. We didn't have that — have it ready for water and 
ready to farm. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it due to any labor difficulties? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, no; I don't think so. 

Mr. Steedman. Then it was the responsibility of the project 
administration rather than the fault of the Japanese; is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. It was mostly due to the fact that we had a break- 
down in the various types of equipment — tractors, and we experi- 
enced difficulty in getting repair parts. That is the reason we have 
not been able to progress as rapidly as we planned. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8859 

Mr. Steedman. What did the irrigation system that is the exten- 
sion to the original irrigation system cost? I have reference to the 
extension yon are building now. 

l\Ir. Gelvin. I conkhi't give you the figures on that. It is not 
complete. 

l\ir. Steedman. Do you know how much money has been spent up 
to date? 

Air. Gelvin. No, su" I would prefer you ask Mr. Empie that 
question. 

Mr. Steedman. "Will he have those figures? 

Mr. Gelvin. 1 think he will, yes. Of course, when we came over 
we didn't know just what to bring over. We tried to make a guess 
on the information that you would w^ant. 

Mr. Costello. Let us take a 5-minute recess. 
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.) 
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. 
You may proceed, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. 1 believe you stated you didn't know what the 
extension to the irrigation system cost. That is correct, isn't it? 
Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Congress appro- 
[)riated any funds for the extension of the irrigation system? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, of course. Congress appropriated all the funds 
that have to do with any part of the project. As to the nature of 
the appropriation, I could not say. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't know whether they appropriated money 
for this project or not? 

Mr. Gelvin. If they appropriated money specifically for that pur- 
pose, I think Mr. Empie can give you that information. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you use Japanese labor in constructing the 
extension to the irrigation system? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have used some Japanese labor and some white 
labor. 

Mr. Steedman. Has the work on the extension of the irrigation 
system been done under a contract? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, not up to now\ It has been done — no, there 
has been no contract work on the canal. 

Mr. Steedman. You did use some Japanese labor and some wliite 
labor, is that correct? . 
. Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. What do you pay the Japanese for that type of 
work? 

Mr. Gelvin, Some of it was $16 and some $19 a month. 
Mr. Mundt. How long a day do they w^ork? 
Mr. Gelvin. They are supposed to w^ork 8 hom*s. 
Mr. Steedman. You say "supposed to work 8 hours." How many 
hours a day do they actually work? 

Mr. Gelvix. Some are very good workers and some are not so good. 
They put in their time. 

Mr. Costello. What do the 8 hours include? From the time they 
leave the camp and arrive on the job or the time actually spent on 
the job? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, most of the work is right there close. 
Mr. Costello. Adjacent to the camp? 



8860 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; and they are expected to be there from 8 to 5. 
On that part of the project which is constructed away from the camp, 
so travehng is required to get there, it is generally customary that 
they go one way on Government time and one way on their own time. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have you visited the operations and watched the 
Japanese while they are actually on the job? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have you spent any considerable time watching 
them during any one day? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I have been there, oh, probably an hour at a time. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do they go to work promptly at 8 o'clock in the 
morning? 

Mr. Gelvin. Some do and some don't. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You have no means of control over them to see 
that they actually put in a good day's work? 

Mr. Gelvin. \Vell, they are paid for what they do. If they only 
work a half day, they are only given time for a half day. 

Mr. CosTELLO. If they get out there at 8 o'clock in the morning 
but do not start to work until 10, do they have 2 hours deducted from 
their pay? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is up to the foreman — whatever he turns in the 
time for. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are the foremen all white men or are there some 
Japanese foremen? 

Mr. Gelvin. Most all the foremen are white. 

Mr. CosTELLO. There are some who are Japanese however? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. How much time do they have for lunch? 

Mr. Gelvin. One hour. 

Mr. Costello. One hour? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello, Is that from 12 to 1? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they work from 8 to 12 and 1 to 5. 

Mr, MuNDT. Vi'hat happens to the money that they earn? Do you 
have a sort of camp bank, or do they take the money home and keep 
it in their own homes or rooms? Or do you know what happens to it? 
Can they spend it for anything they want to? 

Mr, Gelvin. Well, we don't have a bank there. That is their own 
to do with as they want. If they want to maintain a bank account 
somewhere else and send their money out, why, they can, or if they 
want to spend it there they can. 

Air. Steedman. Have you had any difficulty with the Japanese 
about work assignments? 

Mr. Gelvin. What kind of difficulty do you mean? 

Mr. Steedman. Refusing to work after they have been assigned to 
a certain job? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have had several cases of that. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had any who refused to work on the irri- 
gation project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. How many? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say now. Just how do you mean by 
"refusing." No one there — it is not mandatory that they work. If 
they have got money enough and don't have to work, why, they don't 
have to. 



UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8861 

Mr. CosTELLO. They don't have to work at all, do they? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir, 

Mr. CosTELLO. But they would still be able to secure their meals 
and quarters which were assigned to them, without having to earn 
them in any way, isn't that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. Costello. There is no obligation on their part to work? If 
they don't work they will still eat and sleep? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Costello. And is their clothing also provided them? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not if they do not work; if they are not on the job — 
excepting welfare cases. For instance, as an example, there might be 
a woman with several small children and she has no means of working. 
She can't go away and leave the children and work. In a case of that 
kind an investigation is made by the family welfare gi'oup and they 
can issue a clothing allowance to her. 

Mr. Steedman. You have had a large turn-over of Japanese labor 
on the in-igation project, have you not? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Could you give us some idea about what that turn- 
over has been on the project at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I could not. 

Mr. Steedman. Who would have those figm^es? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think Mr. Rupkey could probably give those better 
than anybody. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many Japanese are working on 
the irrigation project at the present time? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't know what the total is on that. 

Mr. Steedman. If you could use the Japanese to construct the 
irrigation project, it would save the Government from employing 
white men, would it not? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Jvlr. Costello. Wliere do you obtain your white labor that is used 
on that project? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have obtained some of it from the imions in 
Phoenix. 

Mr. Costello. There is no city immediately adjacent to the reser- 
vation, is there? 

Mr. Gelvin. There is just a small town of Parker, 

Mr. Costello. That is about how far away? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is 16 mUes from the project. 

Mr. Costello. You don't provide any living quarters for labor, 
do you? They live in Parker, do they not? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have an old C. C. C. camp there that we moved 
down and set up for laborer's quarters. 

Mr. Mundt. What do you pay the white workers? 

Mr. Gelvin. There are various ranges. 

Mr. Mundt. For doing the kind of work that you pay the Japanese 
$16 or $19 a month? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think around $8 a day. 

Mr. Mundt. Plus sustenance? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Mundt. Does the white laborer pay for his quarters in the 
C.C.C.camp? 

62626— 43— voL 1.5 3 



8862 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Now, I understand the Japanese workers are volun- 
teers. You send out word to the camp that you want workers and 
they volunteer. You saj^ it is not mandatory? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. If it is not mandatory, then what do you mean by 
saying they refuse to work. After they have started to work they 
quit; is that what you mean? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. We have had — I assume that that is what A^r. 
Steedman meant; that they didn't want to work on that particular 
job and just quit. 

Mr. MuNDT. They started out and then they quit? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. Is that because of the difference in the wage level 
between the white and the Japanese workers? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I think there are probably various reasons. I 
imagine that is probably one of them. 

Mr. Costello. Do they seem willing to work for that small amount 
of money per m^ontli? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they are not very well satisfied with that small 
amount of money, but inasmuch as it is all they can get it is pretty 
much a case of that or nothing. 

Mr. Costello. They don't feel because they are also getting their 
quarters and food supplied to them, that they are getting additional 
compensation? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I am sure some of them do look at it that way 
and some of them don't consider it. 

Some feel that the Gov^ernment placed them .there and the Govern- 
ment is obligated to provide them with their food and housing. 

Mr. Costello. Those who do work on the irrigation project re- 
ceive all of their wages; none of it is taken away and put in a com- 
munity fund or anything of that nature? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they receive all of it. 

Mr. Costello. That is their individual m.oney? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, that is right. 

Mr. Mundt. Do you intermingle the Japanese workers with the 
white M'orkers, or do they have certain assignments to certain jobs or 
certain portions of the ditch to work on? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, at first we intermingled them and that didn't 
work out so good so now we try to keep them separate. 

Mr. Mundt. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact some of the Japanese made 
more than $16 or $19 a month by reason of their work on the irriga- 
tion project, by renting trucks and equipment to the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have rented some trucks from the Japanese; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any idea about how many trucks you 
have rented? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, T have a list of truck rentals that 
the project at Poston has made up, showing the trucks that have been 
rented from the Japanese. I am not prepared at this time to lay the 
foundation for entering it in evidence, but I would like to read this 
just to indicate • 

Mr. Costello. Where was that information obtained? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8863 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to defer answering that question until 
a later date so I may lay a proper foundation and enter it into the 
record, but I would lilvc to question Mr. Gelvin regarding the facts 
contained in this statement at this tune. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Very well. 
• !Mr. Steedi\ian. Do you know whether or not the project rented a 
truck from Mack Nishimoto at the rate of $150 a month for a period 
of 9 months? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think we have rented a truck from Mack 
Nishimoto. As to the rental rate, I couldn't tell you that. Mr. 
Empie will be able to supply that information. 

Air. Steedmax. Do you know whether or not this truck was used in 
building the irrigation system? 

Air. Gelvin. No; I don't. I beheve that was a stake body truck 
and it was used for general hauling. Now, some of the hauling may 
have been for the irrigation system, but I am sure it was for general 
hauling. 

Mr. Steedman. Who fixed the figure of $150 a month as the rental 
rate for this truck? 

Mr. Gelvin. That would have been set by, probably, the Supply 
and Transportation Officer wath Air. Empie's approval, inasmuch as 
that is part of his responsibility. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the project furnish the Japanese gasoline, oil, 
and tires for the trucks while rented? 

Air. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you the nature of the rental agreement 
on that. I think Air. Empie will be able to give you that information. 

Mr. Steedman. Air. Empie can testify regarding that matter? 

Air. Gelvin. I believe he could ; yes. 

Air. Steedman. As a matter of fact some of the Japanese who are 
actually working on the irrigation project, received more money than 
$16 or $19 a month because of the equipment they rented to the Gov- 
ernment? * . ' 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. We have rented some equipment from the 
Japanese. 

Air. Steedman. I would like to next develop the food situation at 
Poston. How well are the Japanese fed at the Poston project? 

Air. Gelvix. Well, that is kind of a broad cjuestion. 

Air. Steedman. Would j^ou say they are well fed? 

Air. Gelvin. Well, I would say they are. adequately fed. 

Air. Steedman. I believe you have already testified that Mr. 
Clifton E. Snclson is the chief steward? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Does he have full responsibility for all food at the 
Poston project? 

Air. Gelvin. Well, now, I don't know just how to answer that 
question. How far would you extend that responsibility? 

Air. Steedman. I mean does he determine how much food is 
necessary to feed the evacuees? 

Mr. Gelvin. He makes up the menus on the basis of basic menus 
which have been supplied by the Quartermaster Corps along in the 
early stages of the project, and a basic menu which has been pre- 
pared by the W. R. A. From those two basic menus, why, he makes 
up the menus that are used there in the camp. 



8864 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Does he also determine the quality of the food? 

Mr. Gelvin. He determines the quality to some extent. In his 
requisitions to the quartermaster, he would probably specify certain 
types or kinds of food and they would supply it if possible and if not 
they would have to make substitutions. 

He receives certain instructions with regard to policies on quality 
of food from the W. R. A. in Washington. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the W. R. A. in Washington work out the 
menus? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. I previously stated Mr. Snelson prepares the 
menus from the basic menus which have been submitted. 

Mr. Steedman. They send you sample menus from Washington 
and he orients it to what he has, is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. How many mess halls do you have at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, we have 72 blocks and 3 camps. That would 
be 72 mess halls. However, there are 4 of those that are not in 
operation. Actually about 68, I believe, would be the total. 

Mr. Steedman. Is Mr. Snelson in actual charge of the operation of 
the mess halls? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is liis responsibility. 

Mr. MuNDT. How many do you feed at each mess hall? 

Mr. Gelvin. The population of that particular block and the 
populations vary from, probably, 150 to 275 per block, may be 300 
in some blocks. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are they cafeterias or do you feed them country 
style; put the food on the table? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, in some of the mess halls they have a kind of 
cafeteria and they pass up by the counter and they are given their 
plate of food and some of the mess halls feed on a family style — they 
put the food on the table and help themselves. 

Mr. MuNDT. In the cafeteria style mess halls do the customers 
pick out their food or is the food handed to them? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; it is dished out on a plate to him. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is just to facilitate serving; is that it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It is a fixed meal, in other words, that is served 
to them? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. There is no cooking by the Japanese at their bar- 
racks? They all eat at the mess halls? 

Mr. Gelvin. Prior to point rationing, some did order food that 
they kept in their barracks, because some of them probably could 
afford better food than they were getting in the mess halls and were 
willing to go to that extra expense. 

Mr. Costello. But they would still be able to do that with non- 
rationed foods? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they could with nonrationed foods if they could 
get it. 

Mr. Costello. If they wanted to buy food at Parker it would be 
possible to purchase the food and have it in their quarters? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they could do that or send away to Phoenix 
for it. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTlVITIEiS 8865 

Mr. CosTELLO. While tliey are at the camp the Japanese are not 
given ration books, are they? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; but they are given ration stamps for shoes. 
Those who came in and needed shoes they were given ration stamps so 
they could buy a pair of shoes, but they are not given a regular ration 
card. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And they w^ere limited to one pair of shoes per per- 
son up to June 17? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

jVIr. CosTELLO. You say they were given shoe stamps. Could they 
go downto-wai and buy those shoes? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we have camp stores there at the camp. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And you sell those shoes at cost or at what per- 
centage of mark-up? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. They are sold at a mark-up which I am told 
averages about what the mark-up would be in a normal outside 
business. Some of the mark-ups are less and some more, but they 
are not sold at cost. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It is designed to make a little profit for the camp; 
is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. What happens to any profits that are made in the 
commissary stores? 

Mr. Gelvin. We are right in the process now of establishing a 
cooperative. That hasn't been completely worked out, but when 
that is established, why, those who hold shares in the cooperative 
will receive a portion of the profits on the patronage basis. 

Up to date the profits have been kept in a special fund and could 
be termed as "community property." Those funds, however, are 
handled by a bonded officer. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How are the fimds used; for the general welfare of 
the camp, such as putting on programs or entertainment or things 
of that character? 

Mr. Gelvin. There have been some used for recreation, buying 
baseballs and baseball bats and equipment of that kind. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You say you are going to establish these coop- 
eratives. "VMiat does a person do to obtain a share or interest in a 
cooperative? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, the bylaws of the cooperative, I believe, state 
that the shares shall be available to any evacuee at $1 per share and 
no more than one share to a person. 

Mr. CosTELLO. They will be able to purchase an interest in the 
cooperative for a dollar and interest? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Costello. And then they would each take their pro rata share 
of any profits that might be made? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. \\hat is the necessity for establishing such an 
organization? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Costello. Isn't the present sj^stem functioning satisfactorily 
or is there some dissatisfaction with it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, it was the desire on the part of the evacuees to 
establish a cooperative. 



8866 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was that desire expressed by them or was it 
expressed by social welfare workers suggesting such a program to them? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I believe that was pretty 

Mr. CosTELLO. It was their own suggestion? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; their own suggestion. Inasmuch as it is mostly 
their own funds that are involved, why, as long as the method of 
business meets with the regulations of the W. II . A. and the law, 
why 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do the bylaws prohibit a person from acquiring 
more than one share or interest in the cooperative? In other words, 
could one Japanese buy the interest of another Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. I believe the bylaws state that only one share 
may go to an individual. 

Mr. CosTELLO. There is no way in which the individual can transfer 
his title in that share other than to sell it back to the cooperative? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't think so. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese have any voice in the kind of food 
that is served in the mess halls? 

IVlr. Gelvin. Well, they do in this way: The chief steward has sev- 
eral Japanese who are his immediate helpers; his immediate assistants, 
and they help him with setting up these menus and in that way, why, 
I would say yes, they do have some voice in establishing a menu, 
within certain limits — within the limits of available foods — point 
rationing and our limit on how much a ration can cost. 

W^e have a limit of 45 cents — that no ration shall cost more than 
that. 

Mr. Steedman. Forty-five cents per person per day? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the community government inside of the 
camp have a committee on food? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they do. 

Mr. Steedman. And that is a committee composed of Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Does that committee serve as an advisory com- 
mittee to the chief steward? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they advise the chief steward and take whatever 
part they can in helping the steward work out better rations, more 
satisfactory rations from all standpoints. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have one type of menu for the Japanese 
mess halls and another type of menu for the Caucasian mess halls? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, they have two menus for the 
Japanese mess halls; isn't that right? 
(No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. One American food and one Japanese food? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't believe so. That has been a very diffi- 
cult problem with us in trying to feed people in a common mess hall 
where some have been used to oriental food and some have been used 
to occidental food and the menu is prepared to try and take care of 
both types of food — both occidental and oriental. 

There are a great many Japanese dishes used and prepared but, no, 
we don't have two separate menus for the dift'erent types of people. 

Mr. Steedman. How is your food purchased? 



UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8867 

Mr. Gelvin. It is purchased throiis^h the Quartermaster Corps. 
Requisitions are prepared and submitted to the quartermaster 45 days 
m advance. 

Mr. Steedman. \Mio prepares the requisitions? 

Mr. Gelvin. The chief steward. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the requisitions routed through the director of 
the project's office? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; they are not. Copies of the requisitions go 
into the Washington office; and as I liave previously stated, the chief 
steward is bound by whatever existing laws or regulations there are 
concerning the food. He cannot exceed 45 cents per ration of food 
nor can he exceed the rationed foods — more than what his ration points 
would permit him to purchase. 

Mr. Steedman. The chief steward prepares a requisition and sub- 
mits it to the Quartermaster Obrps? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And that is the procedure for obtaining food? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Has that always been the procedure at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, yes; I think so. I can't thmk of any other 
method that has been used. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you always had sufficient food for the 
Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there were times along in the early start of 
the project when there were days that kept us scratching a little bit 
to have enough food. 

There were delayed deliveries and all of the procedures had not 
been worked out definitely with the quartermaster. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had any shortage of food in the last 6 
months? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't tliink there have been any shortages. I 
haven't heard of any. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't heard any complaints about it? 

Mr. Gelvin. It hasn't come to my attention and if there had been 
a shortage, I probably would have heard about it. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese as a rule eat much bread? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they are not very heavy bread eaters. 

Mr. Steedman. They don't eat much bread? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know about how much bread is consumed 
every day at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you how much is consumed every day, 
but I might be able to tell you how much has been consumed from 
the start of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you say there is consumed at the Poston 
center about 3,750 pounds per day? 

Mr. Gelvin. That seems like an awful lot of bread to me. From 
July 1, 1942, to Alay 31, 1943, we purchased 1,268,159 loaves of 
bread. 

Mr. Steedman. Pound loaves? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, tliis is in pounds and a loaf generally weighs 16 
ounces. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't the figure of the daiily consumption, 
do you? 



8868 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Eberharter. Is that G. I. bread? 

Mr. Gelvin. Sir? 

Mr. Eberharter. Is that Government issue bread? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; that is the quartermaster's. The quartermaster 
makes those contracts and it is regular bakery bread. 

Chairman Costello. There is considerable difference between 
Government issue bread and the regular commercial bread; is there 
not? A dift'erence in the weight of the loaf and a difference in the 
content also? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact who is your bread contract with 
at the present time? 

Mr. Gj:lvin. I don't Icnow. That contract changes every quarter. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever had a contract with the Olson 
Bakery in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think so. 

Mr. Steedman. Did that contract call for white bread enriched 
with vitamin B, sliced, IK pounds net weight. Do you recall that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't recall that. It might have been. 

Mr. Steedman. You also serve whole wheat bread to the Japanese 
at the project, do you not? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall that. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the Japanese hoarding any of the bread that 
is issued to them? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't heard anything about that at all? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. Bread is something that doesn't keep very long. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the Japanese drying 
the bread and hoarding it? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you conducted any investigation into that? 

Mr. Gelvin. "Well, the chief steward is continually checking food 
and the mess halls and he only issues the food from the subsistence 
warehouses according to the population of the block that it is going 
to. A block of 150 people would get half as much food as a block 
of 300. 

Mr. AluNDT. Do you bake any bread or muffins or biscuits or any- 
thing of that kind in your kitchens? 

Air. Gelvin. Some of the kitchens do some baking. There isn't 
so very much baking because bread is not a big item of diet with the 
Japanese, as I understand. 

Mr. MuNDT. "Were those figures of one million some hundred 
thousand loaves of bread, do they include the bread baked in the 
kitchens? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; that was the bread that was purchased. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever made an investigation of the bar- 
racks to see if they had any cellars underneath the barracks where 
they are hoarding food? 

Mr. Gelvin. They have some cellars underneath the barracks. 

Mr. Steedman. Were they constructed at the time the barracks 
were constructed? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. They have been dug out by the Japanese since 
the camp was constructed. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8869 

Mr. Steedman. The Japanese have cut holes m the floors and dug 
cellars under the barracks, haven't they? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; some of them have. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what they keep hi the cellars? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't. Our chief steward has told me that he 
has gone down into several of the cellars looking for sui-plus food that 
has been stored there. Our internal security officer has had occasion 
to go into several of the cellars and the cellars were, so it has been 
explained to me, mostly constructed for the purpose of a cooler place 
to sleep. ^Yhen you get a temperature around there of 130 it is 
pretty hot sleeping in the barracks and I know some of them tell me 
they do sleep in the cellars. And I have been also told that by the 
internal security officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Have, you instructed the internal security officer 
to make a check of all the cellars in the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you recently institute a search for hoarded food- 
stuffs at the Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. I did not institute one. The steward may have made 
a search for it but I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know the results of his search? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he report to you that he obtained about 7 
tons of hoardelf foodstuffs? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; he didn't. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever seen a report to that effect? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the steward tell you that he obtained hoarded 
bread from these cellars? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you go so far as to say the Japanese are not 
hoarding rationed foodstuffs at the Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge they are not. 

Mr. Steedman. But the administration has made no check on that 
matter at all, has it? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have not ordered — have not ordered a general 
search of the entire camp, if that is what you have reference to. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you tm-ned up any isolated cases of food 
hoarding? 

Air. Gelvin. It hasn't come to my attention if they have. I 
couldn't say "No," because I don't know whether they have or not. 

Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Gelvin, is there any liquor sold to the Japanese 
in camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. In what way do you mean? Do the stores 
handle liquor? 

Mr. Mi'NDT. Any way. Are they issued Uquor or do they buy 
hquor or have access to hquor? 

Mr. Gelvin. It is against the law to have liquor, of course, on the 
Project, and it is doubly so — in fact we are located right in the middle 
of an Indian reservation. 

We found one individual who brought in two cases of liquor, a 
white man, apparently, a bootlegger, and he was turned over to the 
United States attorney in Plioemx. That is the only case that we 
have had. 



8870 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. The camp generally is under the same liquor regula- 
tions as an Indian reservation? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We will declare a recess of the hearing until 2 
o'clock tliis afternoon. 

(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of 
the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The committee reconvened, pursuant to the noon recess, at 
2 p.m.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order, 

Mr. Steedman, you will proceed with your questioning. 

TESTIMONY OF RALPH M. GELVIN— Resumed 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to continue and develop the food 
situation at Poston. How often does the chef serve ice cream at 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't remember of him ever serving ice cream. 

Mr. Steedman. The camp doesn't buy ice cream as a regular thing? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Sieedman. Do you serve milk? / 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we serve milk to children and* mothers with 
babies. 

Mr. Steedman. But milk isn't on the regular menu? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, no, only for those people. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the name of the milk company from 
whom you buy the milk? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe we are getting our milk from the Golder 
State Dairy Co. at the present time. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much milk is delivered daily? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe our contract calls for 6,000 quarts a day. 
However, the steward told me recently that he was having difficulty 
in getting that amount of milk. Some days the deliveries were down 
to around 4,000 quarts. I believe the contract is for 6,000 quarts. 

Mr. Steedman. That is the Golden State Dairy Co. that is located 
here in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they have several places around over the State. 
I think they have one in El Centro. I don't know whether ours is 
coming directly from Los Angeles or El Centro. It is a California 
concern. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the steward serve fresh. fruit? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think he does. I think they do get some 
fresh fruit. How much I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Canned fruit? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think the only canned fruit and canned juices that 
are served are served in the hospital to patients. 

Mr. Steedman. It wouldn't be necessary for them to have much 
of the various canned fruits and vegetables on hand if they only 
serve it to patients in the hospital? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I shouldn't think so. 

Mr. Steedman. And does the steward determine the quality and 
the grade of the canned goods purchased? 



UN-A]MERICA]Sr PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8871 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, he orders the canned goods and I assume that 
he specifies certain grades. That is purchased by the quartermaster 
and he would get what they hav^e, I presume. 

Mr. Steedman. But you would say on the requisition which is 
wi'itton up b}^ the steward, that he specifies the grade and type of 
canned goods that he wants at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. > I believe he does. You might ask Mr. Empie when 
he comes m. He can probably answer that question. 

Mr. Steedman. How often is meat served at the Poston center at 
the present tmie? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. I haven't that figure with me. I 
don't have the menus with me. I know we serve at least three times 
a week. 

Mr. Steedman. The steward serves meat at least three times a 
week? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; whether we serve it more than that, I couldn't 
tell you without looking over the menu. 

^Ir. Steedman. Do you serve ham? 

Mr. Gelvin. Y^es, we have served ham. That includes all types of 
meat, ham or beef. 

Mr. Steedman. vSteaks and bacon? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we don't buy any bacon. 

Mr. Steedman. How long has it been since you bought bacon, do 
you recall? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I wouldn't recall but I do recall the steward 
saymg that he wasn't buj'ing bacon any more. 

Mr. Steedman. That refers to the present time? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. But bacon has been purchased there? 

Mr. Gelvin. I would assume that that is so. That is since point 
rationing went into effect. 

jMr. Steedman. Do you observe any meatless days at the Poston 
center? 

yir. Gelvin. Yes; we observe Tuesdays as a meatless day. and there 
are generally several other meatless days during the week. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the steward determine the type or grade of 
beef that is Ijought at the Poston center? 

yir. Gelvin. I believe he is buying what is known as No. 3 — grade 3 
beef. I believe he has had instructions to that effect. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he receive those instructions from \T ashington? 

Mr. Gelvin. Y"es; I beheve so. 

Mr. Steedman. And were those instructions received only recently? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you how recent. 

JMr. Steedman. Do you recall the food shortage that occurred in 
Los ^Vngeles during the last few days in December? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I remember reading the papers about it. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the meat shortage that was taking 
place in Los Angeles during the Cliristmas season? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the center at Poston have a sufficient quantity 
of meat on hand during that food shortage? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe we did. 

Mr. Steedman. And that had been ordered in advance? 



8872 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. As I previously stated this morning, we submit 
our requisitions 45 days in advance. 

Mr. Steedman. There wasn't a meat shortage at the Poston center 
during the time of the meat shortage in Los Angeles, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't answer that truthfully to be sure about it. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the chef at- the Poston center serve what we 
commonly call left-overs? 

Mr. Glevin. Do you mean take the left-overs from one meal • 

Mr. Steedman (interposing). And serve them at another meal? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I understand they do. 

Mr. Steedman. You understand that; have you ever seen it? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you checked into that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any occasions since you have been 
at Poston where the chef has wasted food? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they may have. I can't quote you any specific 
instances othei' than the chef — the steward has told me that he was 
training a green bunch of cooks and that he would be very glad when 
he got them broke in because they were not making the best use of 
the food in its preparation. 

Mr. Eberharter. Left-overs? Do you mean by that what is 
left over on the individual plate; the individual serving? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; what would be left over in the kitchen, I would 
assume. 

Mr. Eberharter. That which was prepared and left over and not 
served. Is that what you mehn by "left-over"? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much garbage you have had at 
the Center each day? 

Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any idea as to the number of tons? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't other than this: We have had men from 
the Quart'Crmaster working with us on that and they have estimated 
that there is approximately enough garbage to feed about 2,000 head 
of hogs with a population of that size. They recommended to us that 
we establish a herd of hogs of about 2,000 head. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever seen the figure of about nine tons of 
garbage a day for the Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I have not. 

Mr. Steedman. Would j^ou say that would be an excessive amount 
of garbage? 

Mr. Gelvin. I really don't know whether it would or not. It seems 
like a lot of garbage to me. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there ever a time at Poston when you dug 
trenches and buried the garbage in those trenches? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. There was a time at Poston when you did that? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And that was the manner in which you disposed 
of the garbage? 

Mr. Gelvin. We did at that time, before we got any hogs; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And you decided to quit disposing of the garbage 
in that manner and bought some hogs, is that correct? 



UN-AIVIERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8873 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlioii did you buy the hogs? 

Mr. Gelvin. Our first hogs were bought some time last fall. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't recall the approximate date? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't recall the approximate date. 

Mr. Steedman. Who suggested that you buy the hogs? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you who brought out the suggestion. 
That had been in our earlier plans for the project, to establish a hog 
farm just as quickly as we could, in which every one was in agreement 
with the administration and others. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall receiving a directive from Washing- 
ton to obtain some hogs? 

Mr. Gelvin. ^Ye may have received it. I don't recall just off- 
hand of seeing it, though. 

Mr. Steedman. How many hogs did you buy first? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think our first purchase was around 300 head. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Don't you remember what date that was; whether 
it was October or November of last year? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. It would be along in the fall, though. 

Mr. CosTELLO. From the time of establishing the center in April, 
up until the time the hogs were purchased, nothing was done about 
the disposition of garbage other than to bury it in trenches? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated 300 hogs were purchased to 
begin with? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall whom you bought the hogs from? 

Mr. Gelvin. They were bought here, I believe, on the Los Angeles 
market. Bids were issued for the purchase, and just who the low 
bidder was I don't know offhand. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what you paid per pound for the hogs? 

Mr. Gelvin. The first bunch of hogs we paid 25 cents a pound for. 

Mr. Steedman. Twenty-five cents a pound? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the ceiling price on hogs at that time 16 cents? 

Mr. Gelvin. Might be now; I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the average weight of these hogs per 



hog 



9 



Mr. Gelvin. I think it was something over 100 pounds. 

Mr. Steedman. Didn't they weigh about 200 pounds each? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't think they were that heavy. 

Mr. Steedman. They weren't? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. They were fat, anyway, weren't they, when you 
bought them? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we bought them as feeders. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you killed any hogs yet? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; not yet. 

Mr. Steedman. In your opinion, was buying feeder hogs at the rate 
of 25 cents a pound good business practice? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, no; a farmer probably wouldn't go out and pay 
that much for hogs. However, when these hogs are ready to butcher, 
if it is shown that there has been a profit made or money saved, 
why, I would assume that it was good business. 



8874 "msr-AMERicAN propaganda activities 

Mr. Steedman. It would be very difficult to make a profit on the 
hogs that you paid 25 cents a pound for when the ceiling price is now 
around 16 cents, w^ouldn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, that depends on how much gain you put on 
your hogs and how much it cost you to put the gain on. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, I think if you will check that you will find 
those hogs averaged about 200 pounds per hog. I wish you would 
check on that and let me have the information with reference to the 
average weight of the hogs. 

Mr. Gelvin. All right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You don't have the detail as to exactly where the 
hogs were purchased or whether they were hogs being sold on the 
market here for sjaiighter? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But they did take l)ids generally before they pur- 
chased the hogs? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. For the first 300 hogs you purchased you paid 25 
cents a pound. How many hogs have you purchased subsequent to 
the original purchase of 300? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have about, something over 600 head. I think 
it is 620 head; something like that. 

Mr. Steedman. What is the average price for the last 300 hogs 
that were purchased? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. ^Vlio would have that information? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie would. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie would have that information? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he would have that with him 

or not. 

Mr. Steedman. How many warehouses do you have at the war 
relocation project at Poston? 

M[r. Gelvin. We hav^e 80 at the project itself and then there are 
6, I believe it is, at the rail head at Parker. 

Mr. vSteedman. Could you give the committee any idea as to the 
size of the warehouses — and I mean by that their floor space? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe they are 20 by 100—20 feet wide and 100 
feet long. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlio is in charge of the warehouses? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Wickersham is the chief warehouseman. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his first name? 

Mr. Gelvin. Ernest. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. $2,900, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he had previous experience before gomg to 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I can check on that list. 

Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. Wickersham had previous experience as a 
warehouseman? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was warehouseman with the Soil Conservation 
Service, I think, before he came to us. 

Mr. Steedman. Is he a native of California? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. I think he is a native of Arizona. He used to 
live here in California but I think he spent most of his life in Arizona. 



un-Ajmerican propaganda activities 8875 

Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. Wickorsham had any experience in work- 
ing Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he has or not. I don't bcheve 
he has. 

Mr. Steedman. AMio is the second man in charge of the ware- 
houses? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Hugh Felsted. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not he had any experience 
with Japanese people? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't bcheve he has had. 

Mr. Steedman. \^^io is the third man in the warehouses? 

Mr. Gelvin. Bert Vatcher. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his title? 

Mr. Gelvin. Warehouseman, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. And his salary? 

^Ir. Gelvin. It is either $2,300 or $2,600. I am not sure. 

Mr. Steedman. $2,000, according to this list which yotrhave given 
me. Have you lost any goods from trucks while en route from the 
railhead at Parker to the warehouses at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge, no. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't any record of any loss of goods, 
materials or food? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I. know of. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you have that information if any such goods 
or materials had been lost? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, it might be reported to me and it might not be. 
Mr. Wickersham, I believe, would have that information. I am not 
sure he would. 

Mr. Steedman. How would a loss be handled m your accounting 
department? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe you had better ask Mr. Empie that. You 
are getting into accounting regulations there. 

]\Ir. CosTELLO. You haven't any check up yourself directly over the 
warehouses? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. I go down through the warehouses occasionally 
but the warehousing is under Mr. Wickersham who is responsible 
directly to Mr. Empie, the chief admimstrative officer. 

Mr. Costello. If any shortages occur it is Mr. Empie's responsi- 
bility to check with Mr. Wickersham and make certain Air. Wicker- 
sham is properly administering the warehouses? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. Neither you nor Mr. Head would have direct super- 
vision of that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. Of course Mr. Empie reports du'ectly to Mr. 
Head. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you received aiw reports that goods and 
materials were being stolen from the warehouses at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. No; I haven't. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether Mr. Head has received any 
reports of that nature?'^ 

Mr. Gelvin. He has never discussed that with me. I don't know 
whether he has or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Empie has re- 
ceived any reports of anything being stolen from the warehouses? 



8876 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Has he discussed the warehouse conditions with 
you? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think in the normal course of your work 
that you would hear about it if goods were being stolen from the 
warehouses? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I am sure I would if there was any actual stealing 
where such a matter should be brought to the attention of the project 
director or the police. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you say that the warehouses are being 
operated in an efficient manner? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe they are. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you able to distinguish one Japanese from 
another if you don't know them personally? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, yes, to some extent. 

Mr. Steedman. It is quite difficult to do, isn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they have definite features the same as anybody 
else. They don't all look alike. They are not like a bunch of peas in 
a pod, but there is probably more similarity between those people 
than in other races of people. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have a system of passes that you use at 
Poston which permit the Japanese to go out of the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Does each individual Japanese have a pass who is 
working? 

Mr. Gelvin. There are some workers who do have what we call 
"work passes." 

Mr. Steedman. Do the workers who are entitled to leave the project 
have a pass which permits them to leave at any time? 

Mr. Gelvin. There are some workers who do have what we call 
"work passes" that are issued for a specified length of time. I am 
thinking now of fellows who work — workers who handle some of the 
hauling and handle express. Those passes, though, are for specified 
time that they are to be off of the project and they are generally 
limited to a short period of time. It isn't a blanket pass that is good 
until revoked or something of that sort. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the passes have a photograph of the bearer of 
the pass upon it? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. There is no identification on them at all? 

Mr. Gelvin. They don't, no. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the Japanese able to transfer the. passes back 
and forth between themselves? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have heard that that has been done in one or two 
cases. We haven't been able to trace it down and find out for sure, 
but it has been said to me that there have been some cases of that 
kind. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in direct charge of issuing the passes? 

Mr. Gelvin. Those going out on work leaves- — that is that go 
outside the camp to work, they are issued daily work passes. Those 
are issued by the project director or myself upon the recommendation 
of the foreman, by the foreman whoever they are working for. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACnVITIES 8877 

If there are any special passes for any purpose that are needed, say 
to go to Phoenix, those are issued on the recommendation of the 
doctor at the hospital if they need to go there for medical attention — 
something that can't be given to them there at the project. 

If there are any other special passes that need to be issued the camp 
managers, that I mentioned this morning, of each of the tlu-ee camps, 
clear through them and they are issued on their recommendations. 

Mr. Steedman. There are a number of people inside of the project 
who have the authority to sign passes, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; there are only just Mr. Head and myself who 
sign the passes, but there are several people whose word we would 
accept that they wished those passes issued. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you Ivtiow how many dump trucks you have 
purchased at Poston since the project started? 

]Mr. Gelvin. I might say that we have 65 dump trucks. I couldn't 
teU you just how many of those have been purchased outright. Some 
of those we have borrowed from the Indian Service; sdme of them were 
transferred to us from W. P. A. in Phoenix. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you buy any trucks from a salvage company 
in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Gelvin. We bought some dump trucks here in Los Angeles. 

Mr; Steedman. Do you recall approximately how many? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you. say 20 or 30 or 40? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think we have bought probably 30 — as many as 30. 
I think they have been purchased from several different outfits. I 
don't think they have all been purchased from one outfit. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall which company you purchased the 
majority of the trucks from? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. In purchasing these trucks, from the salvage com- 
panies in Los Angeles, did Air. Empie first refuse to authorize the 
purchase of these trucks? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you whether he did or not. He would 
depend on all of the matters surrounding the purchase of the trucks. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you discuss the purchase of the trucks with 
Mr. Empie? "^ • 

Mr. Gelvin, No; I did not. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the purchase of the 
trucks? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; only that I know the trucks were purchased. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the trucks that were purchased from the sal- 
vage companies in Los Angeles, go to Poston under their own power? 

Air. Gelvin. I don't think we would accept them unless they did 
go to Poston under their own power. 

Mr. Steedman. I mean by that, were any of these trucks towed 
into the center at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. They wouldn't do us any good 
if they wouldn't run. 

Mr. Steedman. Can you testify that these trucks went to Poston 
under their own power? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think you had better ask Mr. Empie about that. 

Mr. Steedman. I have reference to the trucks that were purchased 
from the salvage companies in Los Angeles, or any of them? 

62626 — 43— vol. 15 i 



8878 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie can give you the exact details of that. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in actual dii-ect charge of procurement at 
Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, that is in Mr. Empie's division. 

Mr. Steedman. Does he have a procurement man under him? 

Mr. Gelvin. There has been a change there recently. Mr. Palmer 
is the procurement officer. His assistant, Mr. Schoenhaut would 
probably be closer to the actual procurement and handling all the 
details. 

Mr. Steedman. Does Mr. L. L. Nelson have anything to do with 
the procurement department? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, he doesn't now. 

Mr. Steedman. Has he had at any time? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; in the early part of the project he helped pur- 
chase some of the equipment and supplies. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Nelson had 
anything to do With the purchase of dump trucks from the salvage 
companies in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't believe he did. 

Mr. Steedman. Has the center at Poston been investigated to your 
knowledge? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there was an investigator for Senator Chandler's 
committee who was there; and two investigators, I understand, were 
there from your office here. 

A representative of the quartermaster comes out. I think they 
made four or five inspections since the project has started. That is, 
they are mostly interested in subsistence supplies. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't know of any other investigations? 

Mr. Gelvin. I understand that we exj^ect a committee from the 
W. R. A. out very shortly to make an inspection. 

Mr. Steedman. From the Washington office of the VV. R. A.? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Prior to the investigations that you have testified 
were conducted, did you know that the investigators were going to 
visit the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, we knew that Mr. Malone, Mr. George Malone 
from Senator Chandler's commfttee was scheduled to come there. 
We didn't know just what date until the morning that he was to 
come in. 

When the men from the quartermaster come sometimes they notify 
us and sometimes they don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Had you ^ade any preparations for the investi- 
gators that came out to conduct an investigation? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head call the Japanese together and advise 
them that investigators were coming to the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; no. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he call the staff together and advise them of the 
approaching visit of investigators? 

Mr. Gelvin. To what extent he notified the staff on those things 
I don't recall. I don't recall having had a meeting where he advised 
us that there was to be an investigation. 

Mr. Steedman. He told you though, didn't he? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. We have also been investigated by the Spanish 
consul. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8879 

Mr, Steedman. How often does the Spanish consul come to the 
project? 

Mr. Gelvin. He has been there once. 

Mr. Steedman. When he visited the project, did he confer a 
medal on some of the young Japanese in recognition of their pro- 
ficienc}' in kendo and judo? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; he didn't give medals. They were going to have 
a judo tournament and as an expression of good friendship and all, 
he sent a cup down to be awarded to the person that won the judo 
tournament. That has been some time ago. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you feel that was an unusual thing for the 
Spanish consul to do? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I guess not. That is something that was pretty 
much his own business, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. He makes inspections of the center as a repre- 
sentative of the Japanese Government, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. The same as the Swass representative in Japan 
makes inspections, ostensibly, for our Government, of their intern- 
ment camps? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the background of 
judo? 

Mr, Gelvin, No. I have had it explained to me. That is all the 
background I know. 

Mr. MuNDT. May I ask what it was explained to be? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there has been a conflict in explanations. 
Some have told me that it is part of the militaristic training of Japan. 
Others have told me that it is a Japanese sport which has nothing to 
do with the military; that it is a sport in Japan like our wrestling would 
be here or our football or any other sport. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is it something like our wrestling matches? Is a judo 
tournament similar to a wrestling match? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Jujitsu? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it is kind of a wrestling match. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is that all it consists of, just a sporting activity 
such as wrestling or a jujitsu performance? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I have seen several matches and they get pretty 
wicked with one and another. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do you think it is purely a sport? 

Mr. Gelvin, We felt not and so Mr, Head took steps to disband 
the judo classes and judo tournaments that they were having. 

Mr. Eberharter. When was that done? 

Mr. Gelvin, That was some time durmg the early spring. 

Mr. Eberharter. Early spring? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is this game of judo done witli sticks or swords or 
guns or ba^^onets? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; it is barehanded wrestling. They don't use 
anything else. There seems to be some ceremony in connection with 
it. They come out and bow to one another and then proceed to tiy 
to throw each other on the mat. 

Mr. MuNDT, How is victory exemplified? When they are thrown? 

Mr, Gelvin. Yes. 



8880 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. Do they knock them out or what? 

Mr. Gelvin. They throw them similar to what our wrestlers do. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Who conducted the classes in judo that were held? 

Mr. Gelvin. The Japanese judo instructors. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Were they some of the Japanese who had been 
trained in Japan and returned back to this country? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think in most cases they were the Kibei. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were there any alien Japanese among them? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say offhand whether there were or not. 
There were a number of judo instructors but whether some of them 
were alien or not, I couldn't ?ay. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were the classes or instructions conducted in the 
English language or Japanese language? 

Mr. Gelvin. They were mstructed in the Japanese language, I 
believe. 

Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, if judo was used as a form of mili- 
tary training, unless a person understood Japanese he wouldn't know 
what they were giving in the way of instructions to the Japanese while 
they were in these classes? 

Mr. Gelvin. No ; no more than if we heard some people talking to 
one another in Japanese. We wouldn't know what they were saying. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is all. 

Mr. MuNDT. How many white members of your staff do you have 
who speak Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. Two that I know of. 

Mr. MuNDT. Will you name them? 

Mr. Gelvin. Miss Cheney. I can't tell you the other lady's name. 
There is another lady there that is working with Miss Cheney. 

Mr. MuNDT. Haven't you any men at all on your white staff that 
speak Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. None that I can think of right now. I can't recall 
any that speak Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat positions do these two ladies whom you just 
mentioned as speaking Japanese have in the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. Family welfare work. They were in Japan for some 
years. 

Mr. Steedman. Returning to the judo practice at the center at 
Poston. Has anyone told you that the ceremony preceding the 
actual bouts had anything to do with Shinto practice? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they haven't. 

Mr. Steedman. No one has told you that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. In connection with the judo classes, did they also 
have kendo classes or swordsmenship classes? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they have had no kendo there. 

Mr. Steedman. They have had no kendo matches? 

Mr. Gelvin. No kendo matches; no. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you found that the gangster element in the 
center was centered around the judo classes? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. We had thought that at one time and Mr. 
Head went into it quite thoroughly and I think he felt satisfied when 
he got through that there was not a direct connection between the 
gangstei's, so-called gangsters, and the people who were giving us 
difficulty and the judo. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8881 

Mr. Steedman. Then why did he eliminate judo? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Head eliminated that prior to his making a 
pretty complete investigation of it. He directed the check and I 
think later it turned out there .wasn't any comiection that he 
previously thought there was. 

Mr. Steedman. He eliminated it and then later made an investi- 
gation and determined it was all right? Is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he still considers it all right or 
not. I think there is a question. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you investigated it j^ourself? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I haven't. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the background of 
judo? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you heard of an organization called the 
Butoku-Kai? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Head has 
checked an organization known as Butoku-Kai? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you be aware of the fact if you had any 
members of the Butoku-Kai at the Boston center? 

Mr. Gelvin. No ; but if we had a list of the members of the Butoku- 
Kai we could check to see. 

Mr. Steedman. But you haven't made an independent check 
yourself? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. In fact, I don't even know 
what "Butoku-Kai" is. 

Mr. Eberharter. What was the answer? 

(Answer read.) 

Mr. Steedman. If you were to learn that the Butoku-Kai was sub- 
versive, don't you think it would be proper for you to have a list of 
the Butoku-Kai members who are at Boston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, if it was subversive and we had any members 
there, why, I think they should be taken out and segregated. 

Mr. Steedman. Who determines whether or not Japanese organi- 
zations are subversive? 

Mr. Gelvin. We would be, I believe, informed by our Washington 
office and given a list to check from, of any they considered dangerous. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the W. R. A. have a board in Washington 
which determines all the questions of loyalty or disloyalty on the part 
of the evacuees? 

Mr. Gelvin. The questionnaires that were sent in that I mentioned 
this morning on the Form 304-A, I understand are checked by a joint 
board in Washington. 

I have been informed that that joint board is made up of repre- 
sentatives from — a representative rather, from G-2, a representative 
from the office of Naval Intelligence, a representative from the 
F. B. I., the Provost Marshal General's office and then the War 
Relocation Authority. 

Mr. Steedman. And this board sits in Washington? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. But there isn't such a board at the Boston center, 
is there? 



8882 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. How often does the director of the center at Poston 
confer with the F. B. I.? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. We have an agent from the F. B. I. 
who comes into the project quite often. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the ofhcials of the Poston Center discuss the 
question of each individual evacuee with the F. B. I. before he is 
released? 

Air. Gelvin. No. When the F. B. I. deem it necessary, why, they 
come in to get a man. They don't ask our opinion or discuss it with 
us. In most cases they come in and take the man and go out. In 
fact, there have been times when they have taken a man and gone 
before I knew about it or before Mr. Head knew about it. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the administrative officials at the Poston Center 
have an F. B. I. report on each evacuee before he is released from the 
center? 

Mr. Gelvin. We don't at the project. I assume that the — or, I 
have been told that the — that the War Relocation Authority in Wash- 
ington is given what material the F. B. I. has on the evacuees and use 
that in some of their determinations as to whether individuals should 
go out. 

Mr. Steedman. What is the name of the official newspaper at the 
Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. At Poston, it is the Chronicle. 

Mr. Steedman. I hand you a Poston Clu"onicle dated Saturday, 
January 9, 1943. Is that the paper that you published at the Poston 
Center? 

(Handing paper to the witness.) 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe so, 

Mr. Steedman. You have already seen this, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Costello. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to read into the record a short article 
from the Poston Cln-onicle, dated Saturday, January 9, 1943, and I am 
quoting from an article entitled: 

Relocation Work Set-up in Washington Told by V. Kennedy 
And I quote the second paragraph: 

Mr. Kennedy asserted that the F. B. I. does not clear the evacuees but they are 
cleared by the W. R. A. through information gathered by the F. B. I. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is a clear and correct statement 
of what the situation is there at the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, he is referring there to the Washington set-up 
on that. He is not referring to the set-up at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. He is not referring to the set-up at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Mundt. Didn't I understand you to say, Mr. Gelvin, that at 
Poston you do not confer with the F. B. I. about a Japanese who is 
about to be released; that that conference, if any, takes place in 
Washington? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, not necessarily. If the F. B. I. have reasons or 
evidence to pick up a person, why, generally, the local representative 
of the F. B. I. from the Phoenix office comes in and takes the person 
out. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACnVITIES 8883 

Mr. MuNDT. I am not referring to that. I am referring to the men 
that yoii release to private Ufe. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Before you release them I understand you to say that 
you do not check with the F. B. I. to see whether they were eligible 
for release, but that if any check were made it was made in Wash- 
ington? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. I noticed an article in the Los Angeles Examiner this 
mornhig bearing a Washington date line, dated Jmie 7, quoting the 
California State Legislative Committee which is apparently investi- 
gating the same thing, and this stor}^ says that Lee R. Pennington, 
"an F. B. L official" — by the way, has he ever been to your camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. 

Mr. MuNDT. Says that Pennington told the delegation, according 
to Sewell that his statement — Senator J. L. Sew^ell, Pennington told 
the delegation, according to Sewell, that the F. B. L had never been 
requested to investigate Japs being released and have not conducted 
any, which would seem to indicate that the Washington office also 
does not check with the F. B. L 

Do you have reason to believe Mr. Sewell was wrong in his state- 
ment? 

Mr. Gelvin. Now, we have — let me give you the information we 
have and, of course, I wouldn't contradict the statement there. He 
should know what he is talking about. But we receive telegrams 
from time to time from the Washington office stating: 

"Do not release^ — do not issue permit" to such and such an indi- 
vidual. "His file is awaiting further F. B. I. check." 

I was in Washington in January and I talked with the lady there 
who was handling some of the mechanics of the thing there — leaves, 
and she showed me several cases that had been referred back to them 
by the F. B. I. as having — the F. B. I. had some information on them, 
so, therefore, they were refusing to clear them and were putting them 
on the stop list. 

I believe there must be a little conflict there. 

Mr. MuNDT. It is quite possible that we are talking about different 
things. As I gathered from what you said those are the cases where 
the F. B. L lia^ obtained a clue that there was a subversive Japanese 
some place, and they had taken the mitiative in notifying whichever 
camp held that man and advising that he should be on the stop list. 

Now, this other situation originates in your camp and in all camps, 
as I understand it, and you prepare a list of men and women who have 
been tentatively approved for release to private life and you send that 
list to Washington, don't you? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. You don't release them until Washington has ap- 
proved them, or do you? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. We can release them without prior Washington 
approval if they do not fall into certain categories which would 
automatically hold them back. 

Mr. MuNDT. All right. If you have a list then that does not con- 
tain any names from your stop list, you can release them without 
submitting that list to Washington? . 



8884 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr. Gelvin. No, we submit the list to Washington but we can 
release them and advise Washington 

Mr. MuNDT. That they are out? 

Mr. Gelvin. That these individuals are being released. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is that the general practice? Are you releasing 
them first and then standing by to see whether Washington wires 
back that you have let the wrong men out? 

Mr. Gelvin. In the last month or two that has developed because 
of the fact that they have had time now to go over all of the question- 
naires which went in on each individual over 17 years old, and those 
whom they had information on they would put them on the stop list. 

We have already been advised of some. Theoretically the ones 
now that we have and have not been advised of, are clean so far as 
the various intelligence agencies are concerned. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is it your feeling then that the fifteen thousand-and- 
some-odd Japanese which you now have in your camp have all been 
adequately investigated by the F. B. I. in Washington and cleared 
unless you were notified they were on the stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. I would assume that they have gone through the 
complete investigation in Washington. Just exactly what the pro- 
cedure is there, why 

Mr. MuNDT. You are not sure whether the F. B. I, investigates 
them or not at that end, are you? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I am not; although any file that the F. B. I. has 
on an individual, I understand is submitted to the W. R. A. which 
would — it would make the difference of whether the file was sent 
over to the F. B. I. for investigation or whether the F. B. I. sent their 
information over and the decision was made there in the W. R. A. 
office. 

Now, as to the exact teclinique of how that is handled, the pro- 
cedure, I wouldn't say. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do you think the F. B. I. has an individual 
file on each one of those 17,000 Japanese in the camp at Boston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they have a file on each iTidi- 
vidual or not. 

Mr. Eberharter. You don't think there is any possibility that 
they have investigated each individual of those 17,000*? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know how complete their file was prior to 
the evacuation of them. 

Mr. Eberharter. You don't think that they have investigated 
17,000 individuals since the evacuation? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't think they have come out on the project 
and investigated each individual. I don't know of them having 
done that. 

Mr. Eberharter. Well, wjiat you really think, as I get it, is that 
they have compiled, perhaps, a file from the questionnaires that the 
Japanese voluntarily made out. Is that what you think the F. B. I. 
has done? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I couldn't say as to that — just what their pro- 
cedure is there. Those forms were submitted to Washington in 
triplicate, I believe. 

Mr. Eberharter. You don't even know whether the W. R. A. 
submitted those questionnaires to the F. B. I., do you? 



UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8885 

Mr. Gelvin. No; other than I have been told that this jomt board 
that I mentioned awhile ao;o of the various representatives, which 
passes on each individual — has passed on each individual question- 
naire. 

Mr. Eberharter. Have you ever received a communication from 
that so-ctdled joint board? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. They wouldn't communicate directly with us. 
They would communicate directly with the main office in Washing- 
ton — the W. R. A. office in Washington, and any communication 
that we would receive would come directl}^ from the W^. R. A. office 
to us. 

Mr. Eberharter. Did any statement that you received from them 
make a statement to the effect that the joint board was issuing an 
order with respect to any individual? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I have never seen any correspondence to that 
effect. 

Mr. Eberharter. Has your superior in Washington told you that 
the joint board acts on the individual cases? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we were told at the time of Mr. Myer's last visit 
to the project that 

Mr. Eberharter. W'hen was that? 

Mr. Geivin. That was in April, I believe it was. 

Air-. Eberharter. -In the spring? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. The joint board had been set up, and also 
when I was in Washington in January we were having a conference 
there with the military authorities, at that time, in preparation for 
handling this registration. I was told at that time that there was to 
be such a board established. 

Mr. Eberharter. Just being established then? 

Mr. Gelvin. Just being established ; yes. 

Mr. Eberharter. But that never appeared in any communication 
that you received at the Poston center or that was delivered to you 
officially? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; not that I have seen in the way of a communica- 
tion. That could have come to Mr. Head, though, and I would not 
have seen it. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is all. 

Mr. Gelvin. So I would hesitate to say it hasn'-t because it might 
have come and I wouldn't have seen it. 

Mr. Mundt. a little wiiile ago, in speaking about this Japanese 
organization, Mr. Steedman asked you whether it was subversive or 
not and you said you didn't know what the organization was, but that 
you got your list of subversive Japanese organizations from the Wash- 
ington office. Is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. I said that if we received any information concerning 
subversive organizations it would come from the Washington office. 

Mr. Mundt. Have you received any list of organizations from the 
Washington office of such subversive Japanese outfits? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Mundt. How do you determine then, w^hen you look at the 
questionnaire after a man makes application for release and says: 
"I belong to XYZ organization," how do you determme whether 
or not that is a subversive organization? 

Mr. Gelvin. WqW, we don't determine that there. These ques- 
tionnaires that I mentioned have all been submitted to Washington 



8886 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

and the determination has been made there. If they see something 
in the questionnaire that they feel a man should not be released 
because of, why, we are advised to put that individual on the stop list. 

Mr. MuNDT. But you are not advised as to the reason why he is 
on the stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, no; we are not. We probably could get the 
reasons by writing for a detailed statement. 

Mr. MuNDT. It may be, so far as you know, either because he 
asked to be repatriated or because he belongs to a subversive organi- 
zation or because he is out of balance mentally. You have no way of 
knowing what the reason is for the Washington office putting him on 
the stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, we have the list of those who applied for 
repatriation, so we would know whether it was that or not. How- 
ever, it could be one of probably several things that we might not 
know about. 

I might just add a point that this whole development has been so 
rapid since its inception — 'the whole mception of the W. R. A. has 
been so rapid — -that many of the details of the relationship between 
the projects and the Washington office have not been completely 
worked out. On so many things it is necessary that we depend on 
what information we get from the Washington office, and as yet it 
hasn't been completely worked out — -the relationship between the 
two. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you ever reject any applications for release on 
information which you have in your own files without waiting for the 
Washington office to send you a stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have placed all of the people on the stop list 
who did not give an unqualified affirmative answer to the loyalty 
question that was contained in this questionnaire. We have auto- 
matically placed all of the people on the stop list who have applied for 
repatriation. 

There have been a few mdividuals who have violated regulations or 
laws whom we placed on the stop list, so we have established or placed 
quite a number of names on the stop list without prior advice from 
Washington, and the names we get from Washington now more or 
less supplement the names that we have on the stop list at the present 
time. 

Mr. MuNDT. Have you released any of those folks who have been 
on your stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. MuNDT. None of those have been released? 

Mr. Gelvin. Those that have been on our stop list? No; we 
haven't released them. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You made one statement that those who had failed 
to answer the loyalty question affirmatively are put on the stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. Is there any check made on those who did answer 
the question in the proper manner as to whether they really meant 
what they said when they said they would be loyal to this country? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. We have had no way of checking that at the 
project. We would have to depend on whatever checking was done in 
Washington. 



TUSr-AMERICAN PROPAGAISTDA ACn\7TIES 8887 

Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, the unfavorable answer to question 
No. 28 is an indication a person would be disloyal and therefore you 
put him on the stop list? 

Afr. Gelvix. Well, we have put him on the stop list until something 
can be worked out to determine whether he is dislo3^al or not. 

The reason I mention that is because we have some 17- or 18-year- 
old boys, for instance, who said, "No" to question 28. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you remember the phrasing of that question? 

Mr. SiEEDMAN. I have it here. 

jMr. Gelvin. Question 28. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am reading from the form entitled: 
"War Relocation Authority application for leave clearance" and the 
so-called question 28 is as follows: 

Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and 
foreswear any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japanese Emperor or any 
other foreign government, power or organization? 

Mr. Steedman. Is that question 28? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is the same question. 

Mr. Steedman. That is the original question, isn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is the same question that is on the Selective 
Service f^rm. 

Mr. Steedman. That is right, but didn't you modify the question 
later on so the Japanese would sign it? 

Mr. Gelvin. That was modified, yes; for the aliens. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to read into the record the modifica- 
tion of that question. As I understand it the question was modified 
in order to get the Japanese to sign the questionnaire, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; it was modified before the questionnaire was ever 
submitted to the Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Why was it modified? 

(No answer.) 

\lr. Steedman. After this form was prepared, there must have been 
some reason for the modification, after they had gone to the trouble 
and expense of printing this form and issuing it. 

Mr. Gelvin. I assume that the W. R. A. felt that that wasn't a 
fair question to ask an alien whom they were not prepared — whom the 
United States was not prepared to give citizenship to. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, was the modification which I am about to read 
into the record at this point, made before the questionnaires were 
given to the Japanese to fill out? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it attached as a rider? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; it was a mimeographed slip pasted on the 
questionnaire. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to read the modification into the 
record: 

I swear to abide by the laws of the United States and to take no action which 
would in any way interfere with the war eiffort of the United States. 

Is that the modification? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words the Japanese agreed to sign the 
modified statement which states they would agree to abide by the 
laws of the United States; is that correct? 



8888 UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. That was the form submitted to the Japanese aliens. 

Mr. Steedman. Ahens? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you have questionnaires then? 

Mr. Gelvin. (No response) 

Mr. CoSTELLO. Just the one question was different, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. There were two different questionnaires. 

There was one questionnaire which was 304-A, which we speak of, 
which was the sek>ctive -service form, which all of the male citizens 
above 18 years old or above 17 years old — that is 17 and above, filled 
out. This form here is a W. R. A. form, Form 126 revised, which was 
used for the aliens, and the female citizens, and the modified question 
was used for the aliens, so actually we had three different forms. 

Mr. Steedman. How many answered "No" to question 28 at 
Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. You mean in all the classes — women and otherwise? 

Mr. Steedman. Well, you just said that question 28 was only sub- 
mitted to the Nisei males? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; that same questionnaire — this same question 
was contained in both of the forms, the 304-A and this form here. 

Mr. Steedman. Yes? 

Mr. Gelvin. And the female citizens and the male citizens were 
the only ones that were asked that question. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words only the Nisei were requested to 
answer question 28 and to swear allegiance to the United States? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Nisei are there at the Poston center 
who answered "No" to question 28? 

Mr. Gelvin. We had about 450. 

Mr. Steedman. Those were citizens? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Male and female? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. Now, just let me go one step 
further. There were about 630 who did not give an unqualified 
affirmative answer to that question, but who modified it. The 
difference between 450 and 630 would be modifications of the question. 
For instance, they might say — might have written on there "I am 
neutral," but we considered that as far as the stop list was concerned; 
that was the same as a "no" answer because they did not give an 
unqualified "yes." 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, after you printed the original 
form you received word from the Japanese aliens that they would 
refuse to sign question 28 and you made this rider up with the modified 
question? 

Mr. Gelvin. We were advised by the Washington office to make 
the change. 

Mr. Steedman. But didn't the W^ashington office receive that in- 
formation from the Japanese? 

Mr, Gelvin. They may have— I don't know. 

Mr. vSteedman. You haven't that information? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The forms that came to you from Washington did 
not have the rider on them? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we were advised to place the rider on them. 



UN-AJMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEIS 8889 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are those statements sworn to by the Japanese or 
merely signed by them? 

Mr. Gelvin, They are merely signed by them. 

Mr. CosTELLO. There is no oath taken at the time of filling them 
out? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

I^Ir. MuNDT. Are they advised before they sign them as to your 
reason for asking these questions? Do they know they will go on 
the stop list if they say "No" to that question? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they didn't, know it before they signed it. 

Mr. MuNDT. They did not know it had anything to do with the 
possibility of their release? 

Mr. Gelvin. They know it now. They didn't know it unless they 
might have guessed that it would keep them from going out. In fact 
we know nothing was said beforehand because we were very much 
surprised that we had as many answer "No" as did. We thought 
there would be only isolated cases, but there were many more than 
we anticipated. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We will take a recess for 5 minutes. 

(Thereupon a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order and Mr. Steedman, 
you may proceed with your questioning. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that 630 Nisei answered "No" 
on question 28; is that correct? 

Air. Gelvin. No, no. 

Mr. Steedman. Or qualified their answers? 

Mr. Gelvin. Qualified their answers, that is right. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Nisei do you have at the Poston center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Of all ages about 11,000, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. 11,000 Nisei? 

Mr. Gelvin. That w^ould include babies and on up. 

Mr. Steedman. Alost of the Nisei are under 30 years of age, isn't 
that true? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you believe that the Japanese gave frank 
answers on these questionnaires that you refer to? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they did or not. 

Mr. Costello. You say there are about 11,000 Nisei in the camp. 
That would include all ages? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. But all of them, of course, were not asked to sign 
questionnahes. I should imagine a lar^e percentage of that number 
was under 17 years of age. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; all those who were 17 years of age on February 
1, 1943, or over, were given questionnaires. 

Mr. Costello. They were given questionnaires to fill in? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. How many of those were there? 

Mr. Gelvin. Of the males there were, I think, about 3,600 who 
were registered. I don't have a break-down on the females because 
the females and the aliens registered togeiher. That is the female 
citizens and the aliens registered at the same time. 

Mr. Costello. Your figure of 630 would refer to both male and 
female answering that question? 



8890 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many actuall}^ answered question 28? 

Mr. Gelvin. We registered right close to between— 11,500, I 
believe, was the total number that registered and 

Mr. Steedman. That is including Issei and Nisei? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is including everybody. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Nisei answered? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there were no — well, that is the figure I just 
gave to the chairman, that there were about 3,600 of the male citizens 
and I do not have a break-down with me of the number — of the 
difference between the females, female citizens and the aliens. You 
would have to have that break-down before you could establish the 
total Nisei, but I don't have that figure with me. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you believe a dangerous Japanese would hesi- 
tate to answer "Yes" to question 28 for the purpose of serving his 
own purpose? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think you can place any confidence or 
reliance on these questionnaires? 

Mr. Gelvin. That I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you place any reliance on the questionnaires? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe I woidd. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words, if you asked a Japanese citizen, 
"Are you loyal" and he said, "Yes," you would be willing to take his 
word for it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not m all cases; the way you ask the question there is 
whether I would just abolish the questionnaire. The ansiwer is for 
all of them. 

Mr. Costello. Let me ask a question at that point about the real 
purpose or benefit of these questionnaires. It does serve as a means 
of having the Japanese incriminate themselves as to their disloyalty 
if they answer these questions in the negative; isn't that correct? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it is a basis for gathering information on 
each individual. 

l\Ir. Costello. Point out those Japanese who only do not want to 
be loyal but don't mmd telling you so? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. But it would not in any way tend to prove that the 
remaining Japanese are loyal or want to be loyal and will be loyal. 
You can't determine anything from the questionnau'es, can you? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think it gives a basis of considerable information for 
investigating agencies or intelligence agencies to study. 

For instance there are questions as to their education, whether it 
was in this country or in Japan; how much of it was in Japan or how 
much in this country; the number of trips they made back to Japan 
and the number of relatives that they have in Japan, and so forth. 

Mr. CosiELLO. It sort of gives you a card index of each Japanese — 
■ some of his personal history data? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is true; yes. 

Mr. Costello. I judge from your remarks or the information that 
you have, apparently, there is no thorough check-up as to the accuracy 
of the answers to those questions, and of course when a Jap is about to 
be released from the camp no thorough investigation of the activities 
of that Jap prior to his coming to the camp was made? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8891 

Mr. Gelvin. No; it is assumed that any prior information that 
any of the intelli<rence agencies would have, has been submitted to 
the W. K. A. and they can use that as a basis for determining whether 
an indi\ idiial shouUl be rekvased or not. 

We do not make any — on the project we do not make any past 
investigation or investigation of his past. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is, the officials of the camps themselves do 
not make any investigation? 

Mr. Gelvin. We have no facilities for that. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe that the W. R. A. in Washington 
do make a thorough check into the background of the evacuees, 
through the Army Intelligence or Navy Intelligence and the F. B. I.? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is a question you w^ould have to ask Mr. Myers, 
the Director. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You have no information as to the nature of that 
investigation? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

]Mr. CosTELLO. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. Air. Chaii-man, I would like to ask Mr. Gelvin 
some questions off the record. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. Steedman. Have any of these people who have been reporting 
to the.F. B. I. been beaten up by Japanese thugs in the camp? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are you ready to go back on the record so far as 
the press is concerned? 

\li\ Steedman. Yes ; I will go on the record now. 

Mr. Gelvin. We have had two or three beatings. Whether or not 
they were reporting to the F. B. I., I don't know. One of them 
declared openly that he had worked for the F. B. I. and he waved a 
Government check around one day and stated that it was from the 
Department of Justice and he got clipped in a couple of days. 

Mr. Steedman. T\Tio was he? 

Mr. Gelvin. Kay Nishamura. 

Mr. Steedman. tMien did that happen? 

Mr. Gelvin. That was last November, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that attack investigated by the project 
directly? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you determine who the people were that beat 
him up? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we have never found out for sure who beat him 
up. 

Mr. Steedman. You were not able to secure any witnesses? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Air. Steedman. Did the party that was assaulted know who beat 
him up? 

Mr. Gelvin. He claims he doesn't know. He said he didn't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he attacked in a dark place? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was attacked right in his apartment - in his room. 

Mr. Steedman. At night? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he seriously injured? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was pretty badly beated up. He was in the 
hospital a couple of weeks, I think. 



8892 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Is he still at Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; he is in Salt Lake City. 

Mr. Steedman. Evacuated from the center by the center manage- 
ment? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was given an indefinite leave and went to Salt 
Lake. 

Mr. Steedman. Was his life threatened if he stayed at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I don't know whether it would have been or 
not. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you verify the fact that this was a check he had 
received from the F. B. L that he was waving around? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; that came back to me later from various ones 
who thought it was a foolish stunt for him to pull. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever talk to him about it and ask him whether 
he waved such a check or had such a check? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Head did. I didn't talk to him. 

Mr. MuNDT. \Miat did Mr. Head find out? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't Icnow; he didn't tell me about it. 

Mr. Steedman. It is rather unhealthy to cooperate with the F. B. I. 
at Poston, is .it not, having reference to the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it is or not. 

Mr. Steedman. How many others have been beaten up there for 
cooperating with the authorities? 

Mr. Gelvin, We have had, I believe, three beatings, but as to 
whether those were beatings because they were cooperating with the 
authorities or not, I don't konw. 

I imderstand that the explanation that has come to me was that it 
was a carry-over from a feud that existed prior to evacuation. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the beating up of Saburo Kido? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is he? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was the president of the J. A. C. L. — Japanese- 
American Citizens League. 

Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese- American Citizens League had 
been cooperating with the F. B. I. and other Government authorities? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Kido have a reputation for cooperating with 
the Government authorities? 

Mr. Gelvin. We felt that he was cooperating with us — with the 
administration. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he assailed and beaten by a gang of thugs 
who entered his apartment at night? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And was he hospitalized? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. SteedmxVN. Was he badly beaten? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, he wasn't nearly as badly beaten as Nishamura. 
It wasn't serious, I don't believe, although he was hospitalized. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the project director investigate that case? • 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. What happened? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, the people who beat him up were caught and 
given prison sentences. 

Mr. Steedman. Thev were tried? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8893 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Wore they tried in Park(>r? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they were turned over to the Yuma County au- 
thorities and tried in the State court. 

Mr. Steedman. Where? 

Mr. Gelvin. At Phoenix. 

Air. Steedman. Are they now serving a prison term? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. That is two instances of beatings 

Mr. Ererhakter. You were able to get witnesses in that case? 

Air. Gelvin. AVell, no, they didn't get witnesses. The boys con- 
fessed that did it. The Japanese police caught them or had a tip 
that they were going to do this and they were waiting for them and 
caught them and they confessed to it. 

Mr. Mundt. In the course of the trial did they give'any reason as 
to wlty they were beating Kido up? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they did or not. I wasn't at 
the trial and I have no record of the trial. 

Mr. Eberharter. Don't you think that was a matter of impor- 
tance? Don't you feel you should have a transcript of the trial and 
the proceedings there? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think it would be good. 

Mr. Eberharter. In other words neither the director nor you 
know why this beating took place? 

Mr. Gelvin. Unless the director satisfied himself through the 
questioning. I was away from the project at the tune. 

Mr. Eberharter. You think the director might know about it? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think that he would know; yes. 

Mr. Mundt. Where is Kido now? 

Mr. Gelvin. He is in Salt Lake City. That is where the national 
offices of this J. A. C. L. organization are located. 

Air. AIuNDT. He is on indefinite leave? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. Costello. Is he working for the J. A. C. L.? 

Air. Gelvin. I believe he is. 

Air. Costello. Employed and paid by them? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. Steedman. Wlio is the other one that was beaten up? 

Air. Gelvin. I can't give you his name. He was a young fellow 
working on the fire department. I don't believe he was ever — ^he might 
have been hospitalized for a day or two, but it wasn't a serious beating. 

Air. Steedman. Was he cooperating with the F. B. I.? 

Air. Gelvin. I don't know whether he was or not. 

Air. Steedman. Or the camp authorities? 

Air. Gelvin. Well, he was cooperating to the extent that he was 
working. He wasn't a well-known figure or anj^thing like that. That 
is, I mean, we had no occasion to know him directly as we had the 
others. 

Air. Steedman. Did you investigate that case? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. Steedman. Did you find that he was beaten up because he was 
cooperating with the camp officials? 

Air. Gelvin. No. We couldn't find out any reason at all. He 
wouldn't talk at all. He wouldn't give us any information. 

62026 — 4:'.— vol. ir. 5 



8894 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

Mr. Steedman. Was he beaten up by a gang? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. Steedman. The same type of beatings as administered to the 
other two Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Has anyone been brought to justice for the last 
beating that you mentioned? 

Mr. Gelvin. This one of this young fellow? 

Mr. Steedman. The last one; yes; the one you don't recall the 
name of the party who was assailed? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; there hasn't. We have never been able to get 
any information as to who did beat him. 

Mr. Steedman. What term do the Japanese have for another 
Japanese who informs the authorities or the F. B. I. of things going on 
in the center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, they — I see a lady present over there. I wouldn't 
want to divulge the term but "yellow dogs" and "rats" and "in- 
formers." 

Mr. Steedman. They call them dogs, don't they? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Anyone who cooperates with the officials to the 
extent of giving them information are called dogs? 

Mr. Gelvin. Anyone that they consider in the class of a stool- 
pigeon, as we refer to them. 

Mr. Steedman. But aren't you dependent upon those people, who 
are patriotic enough to give you information, in order to know what is 
going on inside the camp? 

iv r. Gelvin. Yes; we do depend upon them. 

Mr. Steedman. You do depend upon, them for intelligence as to 
what is going on? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. We depend upon them to quite a large extent. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made any preparations to protect these 
people who are cooperating with you now? 

Mr. Gelvin. It hasn't seemed necessary since the last beating we 
had because the people got pretty much disturbed about it and they 
are, I think, taking the matters into their own hands to keep from 
having a recurrence of those things, because the general bulk of the 
population there, the majority of them, do not approve of such methods 
as was used by some of them, whom we think were Kibei, and we feel 
they have straightened the situation out pretty well themselves. 

Mr. Steedman. The Kibei make up the gangsters or the Ronin 
groups, don't they? 

Mr. Gelvin. Those that we have had trouble with, yes, have been 
mostly Kibei. 

Mr. Steedman. Has a fence been built around the Boston Center 
since you arrived? 

Mr. Gelvin. The United States engineers built a fence on three 
sides of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. When was it built? 

Air. Gelvin. It was completed along in the winter sometime. 

Mr. Steedman. The winter of 1942? 

Mr. Gelvin. This past winter. 

Mr. Steedman. 1942-43? 



UK-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8895 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think along in November or December. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what that fence cost? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I haven't any idea. It is a three-wire fence. 

Mr. Steedman. Was a fence built around Camp No. 3? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; there .was, but it was later changed. 

Mr. Steedman. The fence was later changed? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there a fence built around Camp No. 3? 

Mr. Gelvin. Preparations have been started to build a fence 
around Camp No. 2 but never completed. 

Mr. Steedman. The fence was not completed around Camp No. 2? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese object to the fence around Camp 
No. 2? And the proposed fence to be built around Camp No. 2? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they objected to it very much. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese tear down the fence around 
Camp No. 3? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they didn't tear it down. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, what happened? 

Mr. Gelvin. The engineers received orders to change the location 
of the fence and the contractor tore it down and used it to rebuild the 
other fence, or build the other fence. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese inside the camp help the con- 
tractor in tearing down the fence? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't think so — not that I know of. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you there when the fence was being torn 
down? 

Mr. Gelvin. I was on the project; yes. I wasn't right at the spot 
as the contractors took it down. 

Mr. SteeDxMan. Did you receive reports that the Japanese were 
tearing the fences down piece by piece? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I hadn't received any reports they were tearing 
it down. I received some reports that they had pulled the staples out 
of some of the fence and laid it on the ground so you could cross it with 
tractors that were leveling some land there at the time, but I don't 
know of any destruction of the materials. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall whether or not Miss Findley, of the 
social welfare department at Poston Center, backed up the Japanese 
in their objection to the fence? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, yes; I think she was in agreement with them. 
She thought the fence should be changed. 

Mr. Steedman. She stated at an open meeting that she did not 
think they should build a fence around the camp; is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. She may have said that at open meetings. I didn't 
hear it. I would guess that she probably did. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Dr. Powell also have the same attitude toward 
the fence that Miss Findley had? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. He was in disagreement with the location of the 
fence. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the fence built for security reasons? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it was or not. It wasn't a 
man-tight fence that was built. 

Mr. Steedm.\n. \\ ell, because of the fact that the Japanese dis- 
approved of the fence it was necessary to remove it, is that right? 



8896 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I think that could not be confined entirely to 
the Japanese. The War Relocation Authority was objecting to the 
location of the fence also. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that Mr. Head? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether Mr. Head took any action in 
the matter or not. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was the objection to the location of the fence in 
relation to the camp or was it an objection to having a fence around 
the camp at all? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, no. There was no objection to having a fence 
around the camp. It was the location of the fence. It was placed 
right against the buildings and it was difficult for the development 
work that we wanted to do there. There were administrative 
problems there that made it difficult, so later the fence was built to 
take in all of the area around the three camps rather than a tight fence 
around the three individual camps. 

Mr. MuNDT. What was the purpose of the fence? What were 
they fencmg in or fencing out? 

Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.) 

Mr. MuNDT. You say it wasn't a "man-tight fence." 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, the fence wasn't a man-tight fence and I 
couldn't say what was the definite purpose other than probably to 
designate the area of the Center itself. 

Mr. MuNDT. There was no stock that they were fencing in or out? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I don't think the engineers would have fenced 
against stock. Yes; there is stock there but I don't think it was put 
there for that purpose. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just as a marker of the camp site? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think so. 

Mr. MuNDT. And you say it was a 3-strand fence? 

Mr. Gelvin. There are three strands in the present fence; yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was that true also of the original fence? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; the original fence had four or five strands. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is a lot of wire just for a marker — a four or five 
strand fence. That was ordered built by the Army? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. And ordered out by the War Relocation Authority? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; it would have to be ordered out tlirough higher 
channels to the Army engineers. I assumed their orders came from 
the Army — Western Defense Command. 

. Mr. Steedman. Isn't this what happened: Didn't the Japanese 
notify the project director that they were tearing the fence down and 
that they would appreciate it if the contractor would help them tear 
the fence down? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, 1 don't believe they notified the project director 
of that. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you any reports in your files indicating that 
the Japanese were tearing the fence down? 

Mr. Gelvin. Wc might have. I wouldn't say that we haven't, but 
I don't recall off-hand of seeing any reports to that effect. 

Mr. Steedman. How much money did it cost to tear the original 
fence down and build the second fence? 

Mr. Gelvin. Gosh, I don't have any idea. 

Mr. Steedman. It was ciuite a sum of money, was it not? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8897 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there was quite a lot of fence involved. Prob- 
ably (lid. 

ih\ Steedman. Would you say it cost $100,000? 

Mr. Gelvin. There was probably 15 miles of fence — there is now. 

Mr. Steedman. At a cost of around $100,000? 

Mr. Gelvin. I wouldn't make any statement on that. 

Mr. MuNDT. 1 beliej-e 3'ou did state that you saw the fence that 
the Japanese had taken down — the fence from which the Japanese 
had taken the staples so they could drive trucks over it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; so they could drive small trucks — small tractors 
over it in leveling the land. 

Mr. MuNDT. You saw that yourself? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you see several instances of that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; just one place in the camp there where they 
were leveling. 

Mr. MuNDT. And when they brought the tractor back, did they put 
the staples back in the fence and put the wire up against the posts? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. What happened to the fence posts from the 
original fence? 

Sir. Gelvin. Thej' were taken up and reset for the new fence. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any of the original posts burned? 

Air. Gelvin. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you any reports to that effect? • 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that had the Japanese not objected 
to the fence, the War Relocation Authority would have ordered it 
taken down? , 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. But the original causation was the objection of the 
Japanese to the fence, isn't that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. It might have been. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you received any rep.orts that the Japanese 
were stealing Government property at the Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. I haven't received any reports that I can recall. I 
believe you asked me that question this morning. 

Mr. Steedman. I asked you that question in connection with the 
warehouses. I am talking now about property, generally, in con- 
nection with the project. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. It has been reported that they have taken 
some lumber in several instances. I would like to correct that 
denial that I made this morning. 

Mr. Steedman. The question I asked you this morning was with 
reference to the warehouses. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. But now I am asking you about the project 
properly in general. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; it has been reported that some lumber has been 
taken. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much lumber has been stolen? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I couldn't say. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't recall anything else that has been stolen? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall any tiling right at the moment. 



8898 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. What was the nature of the himber that was 
stolen? Was it short ends or planldns; or fencing or what? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, it would be various kinds of lumber that they 
had taken home to try to improve their quarters. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Lumber that they took was used for improving 
their own living quarters? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And used around their barracks? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLo. It wasn't stolen for the purpose of selling it outside 
of the camp or something of that sort? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have there been any riots at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Have there been any strikes? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. When did the strike or strikes occur? 

Mr. Gelvin. November IS, 1942. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please tell the committee just what 
happened? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Head and I had left the project to go to Salt 
Lake City to attend a meeting called by Director Myer, While 
we were gone — in fact the day we left the people went on a strike in 
unit No. 1 of the project. 

The strike lasted for about 6 or 7 days in which all work was stopped 
with the exception of the essential services, such as the mess-hall 
workers and firemen and policemen and hos])ital crews. 

The people all gathered together in front of the police station. They 
did not barricade themselves inside of the police station as some 
reports have had it. 

It is difficult to say exactly what the cause of the strike was. It 
might have ])een in protest against the administration. We also had 
a fellow in jail who had been picked up because the internal security 
ofRcer thought that he had participated in one of these previous beat- 
ings. That was given as the reason for the strike. 

We don't think that that was the reason. We think that was the 
excuse for the strike. We think the reasons were many because very 
few of the people seemed to know what they were striking about. 
They were well organized. That is, some of the strike leaders had 
organized the thing pretty well. 

Mr. MuNDT. How many people were on strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, at that time we had about 9,000 people in unit 
No. 1 and the only work that was going on was as I mentioned, just 
the essential services. All the other people who were working or had 
been working quit. 

Mr. Mundt. Pretty much of the entire 9,000 were on strike or in 
sympathy with the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. They were participating in the strike. Of course 
many have said that they were opposed to it but were forced to partici- 
pate in it. How true that is, I have no way of knowing. 

We felt that it was due largely to a rather boiling over point — that 
they had reached a boiling point as an aftermath of the evacuation. 

Mr. Head and I, as quick as word could be gotten to us, returned 
immediately to the project. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8899 

Mr. Steedman. "\Miat date did you return to the project? 

Mr. Gelvix. AVe left on Wednesday and returned Saturday night. 

Mr. Steedman. But the strike started November 18. Do you 
recall the date you returned to the project? 

Mr. Gelvin. It was Saturday when we returned. 

l\fr. Steedman. That would be November 21; the riot or strike 
had been going on then for 4 days before you returned? 

Mr. Gelvin. 18, 19, 20, 21— about tliree days and a half. It 
started after we left. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the strike spread to units 2 and 3? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. There were no demonstrations in units 2 and 3? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. And Air. Head met with the committee which 
had been selected by the people, I believe, on Monday — Monday 
afternoon, and after, I think, two meetings, why, the whole thing 
was settled pretty well and the people went back to work starting 
the 25th, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. The strike continued from November 18 to Novem- 
ber 25? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Who was in charge of the project while the strike 
was in progress? 

Air. Gelvin. Mr. John Evans. 

Mr. Steedman. AMiere is he now? 

Mr. Gelvin. He is in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Steedman. What was his title at the time of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was the unit administrator in camp No. 1. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his present position in Vv^asliington? 

Mr. Gelvin. He is Director of the Alaska Division, in the Division 
of Territories and Island Possessions. 

Mr. Steedman. That is a division within the Department of the 
Interior, isn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. Will you give us Mr. Evans' title again? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe that his title is Director of the Alaska Di- 
vision of the Division of Territories and Island Possessions of the 
Department of the Interior. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do you know what salary that position carries? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. During the strike were the military police called 
into the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. \Miat company of military police are located at 
Poston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. The Tlu-ee hundred and Twenty-third Military Police 
Company. 

Mr. Steedman. TSTio is the officer in charge of that company of 
militaiy police? 

Mr. Gelvin. At the present time? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. Captain Holm. 

Mr. Steedman. Who was the officer in charge of that company of 
militar}'- police at the time of the strike? 



8900 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin, Lieutenant Young, I believe. Their captain had 
just recently been transferred east and they hadn't received a new- 
commanding officer and during the time he was gone Lieutenant 
Young, I believe, was the commanding officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Lieutenant Young was in actual command from 
the period of November 18 through November 25? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. That is during the duration of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know about Sunday which would have been 
November 22. Another military police company was brought in from 
Boulder City with Major Dykes, who is commandmg officer of that 
area of military police, and he assumed command at the time when 
he came in. 

Mr. Steedman. Who ordered the additional company of military 
police to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I assume that was ordered from the western defense 
command. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Head requested 
additional companies of police? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't believe he did. It might have been 
Lieutenant Young who made the request. I don't know. That was 
an Army function and not a W. R. A. function. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you in conference with Lieutenant Young 
during the strike after you and Mr. Head returned? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, He w^as in the meeting with Mr. Head and I. 
"Mr. Steedman. Every day? 

Mr. Gelvin. Either Lieutenant Young or Major Dykes was meet- 
ing with us regularly. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there a Captain Daugherty on the scene at 
the time of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. Captain Daugherty w^as the commanding officer 
that had been transferred east. 

Mr. Steedman. Captain Daugherty w^asn't actually on the scene 
at the time of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the military police have authority to go into, 
the center at the time of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Would it have been necessary for the camp officials 
to have requested the military police to enter the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And the responsibility of requesting the military 
police to enter the center was on the project director? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. There are only two conditions under which 
the project director can request the military police to come into the 
camp, and that is for a fire which has gotten out of control or a riot. 

Mr. Steedman. Or a riot? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the project director determine.that there wasn't 
a riot at the Poston Center between November 18 and November 25, 
.1942? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. There was no indication of violence; 
no damage done so he didn't think it necessary to call the military 
police in. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8901 

Mr. MuNDT. Was there any destruction of property during that 
strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Any tlii-owing away of food or wasting of food? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that we know of. 

^^r. MuNDT. It was just sort of a sit-down strike; just refused to 
work? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were there any inflammatory meetings of any kind? 

Mr. Gelvin. They were meeting all the time. It was just one big 
meeting, but it was ah in an orderly manner. I mean there wasn't any 
gangs out of control or anything like that. 

yir. Steedman. Was the American flag lowered during the course 
of this strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; no. 

Mr. Stef.dman. Not while you were there? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. Now, we have an American flag at the office 
that wasn't disturbed at all. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there a flagpole at the admmistration building 
in unit No. 1? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the flag on the ad- 
ministration building at miit No. 1 was lowered during the course of 
the strike? 

Air. Gelvin. No; it wasn't. 

Mr. STEED^L\x. Do you know of your own knowledge it was not? 

Mr. Gelvin. I would swear to that, I believe, because if that had 
been lowered we would have certainly been informed of it when we 
came back. 

It was not lowered while we were there and if it had been lowered 
prior to our coming back, why, I am sure we would have been notified. 

Mr. Steedman. There were no reports submitted to the efl'ect that 
the American flag had been lowered during the days of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And no reports to indicate any such thing? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I have ever seen. 

Mr. Mundt. Was a Japanese flag raised? 

Mr. Gelvin. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. Mundt. Was a Japanese flag raised over their quarters? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, no, there was not. I might further add that an 
officer came to the project from the western defense command from 
San Francisco, a Captain McFadden, who stayed on the project for 
the purpose of assembling a complete report on the strike. 

He stayed there until after the strike was settled and he inter- 
viewed some of the personnel. He interviewed many of the Japanese 
and prepared his report from that, and I assume that a copy of that 
report would be made availa])]c tbrough that office if you care to 
have it. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Colonel Main of the United States Army 
also make an investigation of the riot or strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Colonel Main? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes; M-a-i-n. 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Mundt. Do you know^ Colonel Main? 



8902 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Air. Gelvin. No, I don't. 

Mr. MuNDT. So far as you know he was never at the camp at all? 

Mr. Gklvin. So far as I know he wasn't. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any threats made against the Caucasian 
personnel by the Japanese during the course of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think there was a threat made against our 
transportation and supply officer. 

Mr. Steedman. What was his name? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Townsend. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the nature of the threat? 

Mr. Gelvin. He told me afterward that he went down and at- 
tempted to drive a car through the crowd in front of the jail and 
they threatened him if he didn't get out of there and go back. They 
said something might happen to him. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese cover the license plates of the 
truck and other motor vehicles also under their control during the 
course of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't think so. 

Mr. Steedman. Isn't it a matter of fact 

Mr. Gelvin. The reason I don't think they did was because I was 
down among the strikers. I walked tlu'ough there. 

Mr. Steedman. But that was after you returned to the camp from 
your trip to Salt Lake City? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. But you cannot testify of your own knowledge to 
anything that happened the fu-st three and a half days of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Therefore, anything that you testify as happening 
at the center in the first three and a half days of the strike is hearsay? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Now, as a matter of fact didn't you cancel the 
lease on some of the Japanese motor equipment inside the camp 
because of the fact you were not able to control this equipment during 
the course of the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. We may have but I don't know that was the case. 

Mr. Steedman. But you did have considerable trouble in controlling 
the motor equipment during the strike, didn't you? 

Mr. Gelvin. We did the first day or two. Mr. Townsend at- 
tempted to get the equipment together. He didn't have very much 
success, and Air. Empie sent another one of his men out and informed 
the police to round up the equipment and bring it in, and they did. 

Mr. Steedman. How long was Mr. Townsend employed at Boston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think about 2 or 3 months. 

Mr. Steedman. \'V^iat was his title there? 

Mr. Gelvin. Transportation and supply officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat was his salary, do you know? 

Mr. Gelvin. $3,800, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. Who was the transportation aijd supply officer that 
preceded Mr. Townsend? 

Mr. Gelvin. A man by the name of Roy Botter. 

Air. Steedman. And what was his salary? 

Mr. Gelvin. I beheve it was $3,500. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he resign his position at the Boston Center? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8603 

Mr. Gelvin. He left. He was transferred from Poston to the 
project up in Utah. 

Mr. Steedman. Why? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was offered a transfer and he took it because that 
position up there, I think, paid $3,800 and he was getting $3,500 
wlu^re he was at. 

Mr. Steedman. When you employed Mr. Townsend you agreed to 
give hini a sahiry of $3,800, I beheve you said? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. At that time we were able to get^ — you see, 
at that time all of our positions were more or less in a state of flux. 
They hadn't been cleared through the classification office in Wash- 
ington and we had received' tentative approval of $3,500 for this 
position, but at about the same time that the change took place there, 
whv, thev approved the $3,800. so I beheve Mr. Townsend went in 
at $3,800. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the approximate time when Mr. 
Townsend assumed his duties at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. It was along in the early fall. I think he was 
there not to exceed probably, 3 months. 

Mr. Steedman. When did he leave Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. In December, I believe. 

Air. Steedman. Wh}^? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was discharged. 

Mr. Steedman. Why? 

Mr. Gelvin. Inefficiency and for the misuse of Government equip- 
ment. He went out of the camp on unauthorized trips and he was 
also having difficulty in handling the evacuees. 

Mr. Steedman. He was having trouble with the Japanese, isn't 
that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. He was having trouble getting his work done because 
he couldn't get along with the Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. How many other white Caucasian persons have 
been dismissed from Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I can't tell you for sure because there might be some 
cases that I wouldn't know about. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the information you have just furnished us 
regarding Mr. Townsend indicated on his personnel record which is in 
the administration office at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I assume that it is. 

Mr. Steedman. But you don't know? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; but I wonder if you would mind asking Mr. Empie 
that question because I think he has a file with him. 

Mr. Steedman, \Mio did Mr. Townsend work for? 

Mr. Gelvin. He worked for Mr. Empie. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you know Mr. Townsend personally? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, I knew him while he was there on the project. 

Mr. Steedman. Who determined that his work was unsatisfactory? 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie. And I will go further than that. I don't 
believe the project director was at all satisfied with his work because 
there seemed to be a continual upheaval in his division all the time 
and since the change was made, why, that division has straightened 
out in fairly good shape. 

Mr. Steedman. Had Mr. Townsend been an employee of the 
Indian Service prior to his going to work at Poston? 



8904 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. So far as I know he has never worked for the Indian 
Service. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the authorities at the Poston project give Mr. 
Townsend a letter when he resigned? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall what was stated in the letter? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't. There was a letter advising him of his — 
that he would be taken from the pay roll. I don't recall just the 
contents of the letter. I saw the letter, however. 

Mr. Steedman. You did see the letter? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. The letter stated that he had been very diligent in 
carrying out his duties, did it not? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't remember whether it did or not. It has been 
quite a while smce I hdve seen that letter. 

Mr. Mundt. Was it a letter of recommendation or a letter of 
dismissal? 

Mr. Gelvin. It was a letter of dismissal. It wasn't a letter of 
recommendation. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return once more to the strike. 

Mr. Mundt. Before you do that, I would like to know more about 
Townsend's background. Where did he come from? You say you 
gave him. $3,800 when he first went to work for you. Where did you 
get him? Was he a Government employee prior to that time? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't think he had been a Government em- 
ployee before he was recommended to us, I believe, by the — well, 
Mr. Empie employed him here in Los Angeles. I think he is a Los 
Angeles man. I think they contacted him through the O. E. M. 
I don't know whether the O. E. M. recommended him or not, but 
Mr. Empie interviewed him and they needed a man right quick and 
he hired him. 

Mr. Mundt. He found him and employed him here in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Mundt. All right, we will have to ask him about that. 

Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie employed him and Mr. Empie wrote the 
letter of dismissal. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the military police permitted in the center at 
Poston while in uniform? 

Mr. Gelvin. I understand that their orders are such that they are 
not supposed to go inside of the center. However, they do have occa- 
sion to come directly to the administrative office once in a while. 

Mr. Steedman. They are stationed at the main gate, aren't they? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And their function is more that of directing traffic 
than anything else, isn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they are responsible for the outside guarding 
of the area while we are responsible for the inside area. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated awhile ago that the strike was 
well organized. Did your investigation of the strike indicate who 
the leaders of the strike were? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Who were they? 

Mr. Gelvin. A fellow by the name of Omori. I don't know his 
first name. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8905 

Mr. Steedman. How do you spell his last name? 

Mr. Gelvin. 0-m-o-r-i, I believe, and a fellow by the name of 
T-a-c-h-i-b-a-n-a, I believe the way it is spelled. From Mr. Head's 
invest ifrat ion he felt they were the leaders of the strike. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you go into the background of the first one 
you named? 

Mr. Gelvin. Omori? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think Mr. Head did. He handled that 
hunself. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he an Issei? 

Mr.* Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. One of the older Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he been connected with the Central Japanese 
Association prior to Pearl Harbor? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he was or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about his background at all? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. AMiere is he now? 

Mr. Gelvin. He is in a detention camp; I don't know which one. 

Mr. Steedman. He was segregated after this instance, is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was taken out. I don't know just where he 
is at. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he taken out immediately after the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; it was awhile before Mr, Head was able to get 
all of the infoiTnation and feel satisfied. 

Mr. Steedman. Do j^ou know anything about the background of 
Tachibana? 

Mr. Gelvin. Tachibana— only by hearsay. I think he was a 
Japanese language school teacher over here prior to the evacuation. 
That is what I have been told. 

Mr. Steedman. By the way, is the Japanese language being taught 
in the c^mp at Poston at the present time? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do they have regular Japanese language schools? 

Mr. Gelvin. They have not schools — they have one school where 
they are using the Harvard prescribed course of instruction and there 
are about 200 enrolled in it. It is being given for the purpose of 
training men for the military intelligence school at Camp Savage, 
^^linn. 

Mr. Steedman. TMio are the teachers of the school? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't give you the names; they are Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Japanese teachers? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Is this school watched fairly closely by the project 
managers? 

Mr. Gelvin. It is under the immediate supervision of Dr. Powell. 

Mr. Steedman. Does Dr. Powell speak Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; he does not. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you know that Japanese language schools in 
California were engaged in subversive activities prior to Pearl Harbor? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have heard that. 



8906 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Teaching the students Emperor worship and so 
forth? 

Mr, Gelvin. I have heard that. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you feel that is going on in this school? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't believe it is. 

Mr, Steedman. Do you know how many students there are in this 
Japanese language school? 

Mr. Gelvin. Approxhnately 200, 

Mr. Steedman. Male? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think they are all male. 

Mr. Mundt. Wliat did you say was the purpose of that? You 
said something about Minnesota. 

Mr. Gelvin. There is a military intelligence school at Camp 
Savage, Minn., in which quite a few of the young Nisei from the camp 
have volunteered in the Army, and this school is having difficulty in 
getting enough men who can talk the kind of Japanese that they 
want, so W. R. A. cleared the way to have this language school at the 
oam.p. They are not, however — I would like to make this point — - 
they are not carrying on this school in cooperation with the Army or 
with the Camp Savage school. This course of instruction is given so 
as to let them pass the test to go into the school. 

Mr. Mundt. Wliat are the entrance qualifications or examination 
to get into the Japanese language school at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. I would have to check that. 

Mr. Mundt. Do they have to meet a higher standard than simply 
not being on the stop list? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't believe there are any in there who are on the 
stop list because if they are on the stop list, why, I don't think they 
would get into the Army. 

Mr. Mundt. But isn't there any higher entrance qualifications 
than simply not being on the stop list? Don't they pick them pretty 
carefully if they are going into the military intelligence service? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know what the Army qualifications are, 

Mr. Mundt. Does the Army pick them from your school? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, no; they don't; but Dr. Powell, who has this 
school under his wing, has familiarized himself with the qualifications 
that an individual has to meet in order to go into the military intelli- 
gence school, and I assume that those who are — whom he has selected 
to go into that school can pass their requirements. 

Mr. Mundt. Have you seen a list of the people who are studying 
in that school? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I haven't. It has only been recently started, 

Mr. Mundt. Are there any Kibeis in that school? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether there are or not. 

Mr. Mundt. Will you include in your letter to the committee a 
statement as to the exact manner in which students in this school are 
selected and what qualifications they have to meet? 
. Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I will. 

Air. Steedman. Would being a member of the Communist Party 
bar a Japanese from enter-ing this school? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it would or not. Pardon me, 
will you repeat the question? 

Mr. Mundt. I would like to have you include in your letter a com- 
plete statement of the entrance qualifications which a candidate for 
this school has to meet before he can enter this Japanese language 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8907 

school, and you can include the answer to Mr. Steedman's last ques- 
tion in the same letter. 

And while we are on the subject of schools, will you include a general 
statement about what is being; done with the Japanese bo3^s and girls 
of school age there at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. We are maintaining schools in the barracks buildings 
at the present time, and we have all grades up through high school. 

There are approximately 5,000 children in the schools at the present 
time. Schools are under construction. We are making them out of 
adobe bricks. 

We are building a school in each one of the three units. We are 
building a high school building and grade schools in unit 1, and just 
high schools in units 2 and 3. 

We plan to carry on a full 180-day schedule, which is going to run 
up to the last of June, I think, because we were late getting started 
last fall with the schools. 

About half of the teachers are Japanese and about half are Cau- 
casian. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are all classes taught in English? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. MuNDT. No Japanese is taught there? 

Mr. Gelvin, Not to my knowledge; no. There is not supposed 
to be. It is supposed to be all in English. 

We were faced with quite a problem because we wanted to establish 
accredited schools, but our budget limitation would permit us to only 
employ about half enough teachers from regular teaching people, so 
last summer we established a summer school — a teacher-training 
school — and selected the Japanese who were graduates of universities 
and in other ways, with the exception of experience, were qualified as 
teachers. We gave them this summer school and then they started 
out. 

About half the teachers are, as I say, Japanese and about half are 
Caucasian. 

Mr. MuNDT. Does the curriculum conform to that of the State of 
Arizona or State of California or where? 

Mr. Gelvin. The curriculum is designed so that the schools will be 
accredited in the State of California and in the State of Arizona be- 
cause many of the teachers we have, or at least some of the teachers 
we have, are retired California teachers — old ladies, and many of the — 
of course most of the Japanese we have were evacuated from Cali- 
fornia, so being located in the State of Arizona, we tried to establish 
a curriculum that would be acceptable to the State Education Depart- 
ments of both States. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do the officials of the Office of Education of Arizona 
check your school? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think they have been in. I only recall of 
them having been in once. I didn't meet them. They meet with 
Dr. Carey, the director of the schools. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How are the teachers selected? From the civil 
service list? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. We had to recruit teachers wherever we could 
get them and the civil service list of teachers — they just didn't have 
any eligibility list left and we had to gather up the teachers wherever 
we could find them. 



8S08 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Many of the teachers who had been retired here in Cahfornia made 
apphcation and we received many of them that way. 

Mr. CosTELLO. What check up is made on the history and back- 
ground of the individuals who are applying for teaching positions? 

Mr. Gelvin. Weh, their personal history statements would have 
to be m.ade for the benefit of the Civil Service because that is in accord- 
ance with Civil Service rules pertaining to appointment and, of course, 
every individual who is appointed under Civil Service has to declare 
an oath of allegiance to the United States. 

Mr. Steedman. You stated, I believe, that the project is building 
a school at Poston center? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Building a number of school buildings? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they are divided up into buildings — four class- 
rooms to the building. 

Mr. Steedman. Are these school buildings of permanent construc- 
tion? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they are pretty pemianent construction. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know the cost of these buildings? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. They are being built out of adobe brick. 
We are manufacturing the adobe brick right there at the school sites. 

Mr. Steedman. But you do assume those buildings are of a perma- 
nent construction or character? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a moment to the strike 
that occurred on November 18 and continued up until November 25.. 
Did the military police guard the Caucasian personnel? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; they guarded the outside boundaries of the 
camp. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the quarters of the Caucasian personnel located 
inside of the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Part of them are; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the military police enter the camp and drive 
up in back of the Caucasian quarters at night so the Caucasian per- 
sonnel could sleep during the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. 

Air. Steedman. Did your office receive any reports of such a thing? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you live there at the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you live inside of the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you living inside of the camp at the time of 
the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I live just across the street from the evacuee 
barracks. 

Mr. Steedman. And if such a thing had happened, you would have 
heard about it, wouldn't you? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you feel there was any cause for alarm after 
you returned from Salt Lake City? 

Mr. Gelvin. My wife and boy were on the project and I didn't 
remove them from the project. 

Mr. MuNDT. I didn't hear the answer. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8909 

Mr. Gelvin. My wife and 10-year-old boy were on the project 
and I didn't remove them from the project. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was your wife and son tiiere the first S% days? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; and she did not feel any cause for alarm; and 
she circulated among the women there. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any of the other men and women and 
children alarmed because of what was going on? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I feel sure some of them might have been. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any of the women and children evacuated 
from the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. Some of the wives were. Their husbands did take 
them out but just how many I can't say. There was very few. I 
would like to stress the point "very few." 

Mr. Steedman. Is there a jail inside at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, w^e have a place we use for a jail. It is a bar- 
racks room back of the police station. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you have already testified that no Japa- 
nese flag was raised at Poston during the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. And does that -include the Japanese flag over the 
so called jail? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. I was shown the flag that was reported 
was a Japanese flag which was raised. All of the blocks were gathered 
in groups and they liad — each block had a banner with their block 
number on it. It is kind of a camp aft'air thing, and this flag which was 
supposed to have been a Japanese flag was a block number and it was 
raised to indicate the block. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words, there was no Japanese flag raised 
but some people reported that it was a Japanese flag, is that right? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. And I think the flag could have been, 
from a distance, it could have been mistaken for a Japanese flag. 

Mr. Steedman. How do you know that the flag in question was the 
one that was raised? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't swear to that", no. 

Mr. Steedman. Can you sw^ear that the flag we are discussing here 
was not the Japanese flag? 

Mr. Gelvin. Tliis flag I saw? 

Mr. Steedman. No; the one that was raised. 

Mr. Gelvin. AA'ell, I couldn't swear to it because I didn't see it 
when it was raised. 

Mr. Steedman. You were not there? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I wasn't there at the camp, but there was — the 
statement was made and circulated that there was a Japanese flag 
raised and there was such a storm of protest from the evacuees that I 
feel certain in my own mind it was not a Japanese flag. 

Mr. Costello. Will you describe the flag? Will j^ou describe what 
it looked like? Was it a white flag or what was it? 

Mr. Gelvin. It was a white flag. 

Mr. Costello. What was written on it? 

Mr. Gelvin. The block number. I believe that number was 30. 

Mr. Costello. Was the figure 30 in Japanese characters? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; it was in English numerals. However, it was 
placed in the center of this white flag and from a distance because of 
the way it was drawn— the numerals were drawn. 

62626 — 43 — vol. 15 6 



8910 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIDS 

Mr. CosTELLO. Rounded in shape? 

Mr. Gelvin. Rounded in shape, yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were the numerals in red ink or red paint or what- 
ever they used? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, it was red. 

Mr. Costello. A red and white flag? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. ■ 

Mr. Costello. A red circle on a white background, is that it? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is what it would look like from a distance, yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Where was this flag raised? 

Mr. Gelvin. Down ' at the police station. It was raised and 
immediately the people forced them to take it down because they 
were afraid it would be mistaken for a Japanese flag, and probably the 
individual that raised it wanted to give that impression, as far as that 
is concerned — some "smartie" tried to show oft". 

Mr. MuNDT. Was it raised on the flag pole there? 

Mr. Gelvin. They have a flag pole down at the police station. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you customarily fly an American flag from that 
pole? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, but it is taken down in the evening. 

Mr. Mi^ndt. When did the strike break out? In the evening or in 
the daytime? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. The strike broke out about noon and as I under- 
stand it this flag was run up at night. 

Mr. Mundt. Who took down the American flag that night? The 
regular authorities? 

Mr. Gelvin. The regular authorities did it. Now, I am not 
positive in my statement there as to whether we were flying an 
American flag there at that time or not. Since then I know we do fly 
an American flag out there. We do now but I am not sure whether 
we were at that time. 

Mr. Mundt. I was wondering whether the same people didn't run 
it up the next morning. 

Mr. Gelvin. No. There was just the one case that I loiow of 
when they run it up and that was at night. 

Mr. Steedman. May we have a recess for a moment? 

Mr. Costello. We will take a short recess. 

(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. 

You may proceed, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever investigated to determine who 
raised the flag that we have been discussing, which you say was 
mistaken for tlie Japanese flag? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether Mr. Head has that information 
or not. I know I talked to a considerable number about the strike 
and whether he has the information as to the exact individual, I 
couldn't say. 

Mr. Steedjman. Well, were flags similar to the one you have 
described flown in other parts of the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. The only flags that were flown were banners, more 
or less, with the block numbers, at this central gathering. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese sing the Japanese national 
.anthem during the strike? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8911 

Mr. Gelvin. I wouldn't know tho Japanese national anthem if I 
heard it ; but I am told that the Japanese national anthem was not 
played during the strike. 

There was Japanese music but not the national anthem. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know the name of the Japanese national 
anthem? 

Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. Would you recognize the national anthem if you 
heard it played? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

^Ir. Steedman. Was an investigation made on this particular 
point by Mr. Head? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know the results of his investigation? 

Mr. Gelvin. He says that the national anthem was not played. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Would you recognize the music that was played 
if you heard it again? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe I would. 

Mr. CosTELLo. In other words, there were pieces that were ap- 
parently repeated constantly? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes; they played it over and over again and every 
once in a while they put in — they would put in an American piece. 

Mr. Costello. For variety? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; there was quite a variety. 

Mr. Steedman. They commandeered the public address system 
and played these pieces over the public address system, is that 
correct? 

Air. Gelvin. Well, the public address system at that time was not 
the property of the Government. I believe a church organization 
had brought it in and it was the evacuees themselves who were taking 
care of the public address system and they used it at the strike; yes. 

Air. Costello. What church organization installed the public ad- 
dress system? 

Air. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you just which one brought it in. It 
was one of the Protestant organizations. 

Air. Costello. It wasn't one of the Buddhist or Shinto organiza- 
tions? 

Air. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. You are not familiar with the Japanese national 
anthem and therefore you are not prepared to testify whether it was 
played or not, are you? 

Mr. Gelvin. Only from what I have heard; what I have been told 
by Air. Head. 

Air. Steedman. Was any Government property destroyed during 
the strike? 

Air. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Was any milk destroyed? 

Air. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge. 

Air. Steedman. What about the Golden State Dairy truck that was 
attacked during the strike? 

Air. Gelvin. I didn't hear that the truck was attacked. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't been advised of that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 



8912 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Did the military police fire over the heads of a 
group of rioting Japanese during the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. They fired but it wasn't over the head of a group of 
rioting Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Then please explain why they fired? 

Mr. Gex,vin. The internal security officer sent one of his Japanese 
policemen over to the truck pool to get a truck and the military police 
on guard told him to halt, and in place of that he turned and ran back 
into the camp and the M. P. fired over his head. 

Mr. Steedman. Fired at one of the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is the story that has been told to me. 

Mr. Steedman. But you were not there? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. That happened while Mr. Head and I were gone, 

Mr. Steedman. But that was reported to you as having occured? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did that report come to you through Army chan- 
nels or through the channels of the Caucasian personnel or through 
the Japanese themselves? 

Mr. Gelvin. That report came to me from Mr. Head. He investi- 
gated it. 

Mr. Steedman. How did he receive that report, do you know? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. 

Mr. MuNDT. Who is in command of the company of military police 
to which the young man that did the firing belongs? 

Mr. Gelvin. At that time? 

Mr. MuNDT. At that time, yes. 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe it was Lieutenant Young. I believe he was 
in command. I believe it was before Major Dykes arrived. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any of the Japanese injured during the 
strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. I don't remember of any. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you recall it if there had been? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think so. 

Mr. Steedman. Or would your hospital records at Boston indicate 
anyone that was injured during the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall whether or not a goon squad beat up 
the mother and father of a young Japanese who had been working 
with the F. B. I. during the strike? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't know of that. 

Mr. Steedman. You did not hear of that? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you have known about it had it happened? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think so. 

Mr. Steedman. And your hospital records would reveal whether or 
not an elderly Japanese man and woman were severely beaten one 
nigh t? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; if they were beaten enough to be hospitalized, 
but I am sure our internal security officer would have received such a 
report. 

Mr. Steedman. Now, how are burials handled at Boston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they don't have any burials — they cremate all 
of their dead. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Government build a crematory at Boston? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8913 

Mr. Gelvin. No. Tho mortician at Yuma — there is an arrange- 
ment worked out with the mortician at Yuma and he built a crematory 
and hanches cremations on contract with the Government. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the crematory in one of the warehouses? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it is in one end of the warehouse. 

Mr. Steedman. ^Vhat is the name of the mortician at Yuma wlio 
has tlie contract to handle the cremations? 

Mr. Gelvin. I can't think of his name right now. I loiow him too. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the project keep a record of the cremations? 

Mr. Gelvin. They keep a record of all deaths and they have to 
keep a record of the cremations so payment can be made for them. 

Mr. Steedman. "What does the mortician charge the Government 
for the cremations? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you what that contract is right now. 
You can check that with Mr. Empie. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the crematory used exclusively by personnel of 
the camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. I tliink there was one other case other than Japanese 
that has been cremated. It was in the case of an employee who, I 
believe, died of heart failure — yes, it was one of the teachers. 

Mr. Costello. Are these death records recorded in the county in 
which the project is located or in any other official record? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. A^Tiere are they recorded? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, they are recorded in Yuma. We fill out a 
Tegular death certificate and it is submitted to Yuma County. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return to the strike for a moment. 
I believe you stated that Mr. Head conferred with a committee of the 
strikers and a settlement was reached. Is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the basis of the settlement? 

Mr. Gelvin. The basis of the settlement covered two main points, 
I believe. One was that the prisoner in the jail would be released to 
stand trial in the manner prescribed by the project director, realizing 
that any change that the F. B. I. had would of course receive preced- 
ence. If they wanted to make an arrest — arrest a man they could 
and take him away for hearing; and that they, the Japanese, would 
select a committee to work with the administration in working out a 
satisfactory employment procedure. 

We had had difficulty with employment and Mr. Head asked that 
of the committee — to see if we couldn't get more people working in 
constructive work of some kind. ■ 

As I recall that is the two main issues that were settled at the 
meeting. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the young Japanese who was confmed in jail 
released? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was released and he was later taken to 
Yuma and turned over to the United States marshal for trial and 
released. 

Mr. Steedman. What was his name? 

Mr. Gelvin. Isamu Uchida. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the result of the trial at Yuma? 

Mr. Gelvin. There was found insufficient evidence and he was re- 
leased and came back to the camp. 



8914 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. STEEDMA.N. Is he at the camp now? 

M'r. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLo. What were the original charges against him? 

Mr. Gelvi'n. He was picked up on suspicion of being one of those 
of a gang that performed one of these beatings. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That was the beating in November? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think that was the beating of the one I re- 
ferred to earher. 

Mr. Eberharter. Is that committee of Japanese still operating? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, yes; it is still operating but there have been 
changes in it. Some have dropped out and others have taken their 
place. 

Mr. Eberharter. Sort of a management-labor committee? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, it is not — no; it is not a labor management 
committee. It is kind of an intermediary committee between the 
administration and the evacuees. 

We found it worked better in that way in explaining what we wanted 
done, by worldng through a third person. 

Mr. Eberharter. A somewhat similar arrangement as they have 
between management and labor in a good many of the industrial 
plants, isn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think so. 

Mr. Steedman. After this strilve did you receive a memorandum' 
from Mr. Myer in Washington, regarding the handling of the Japanese 
relocation center and in this memorandum was there a statement that 
the relocation centers were "their camps" with the word "their"' 
underscored and the word "their" referring to the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall the circular or instructions. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever received a memorandum from 
Washington in which the words "their camp" were underscored and 
the words "their camp" meaning the camps belonging to the Japanese?' 

Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall having seen one. However, that could 
be checked by checking through the administrative instructions at 
the project. 

Mr. Steedman. What is being done now to segregate the admitted 
disloyal Japanese from the Japanese who profess to be loyal? 

Mr. Gelvin. The W. R. A. has established a camp at Luppe, Ariz., 
to handle trouble makers who are citizens. As yet I don't believe- 
they have their segregation policy completely worked out. 

Mr. Steedman. How far is Luppe, Ariz., from Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Oh, it is 300 miles, I guess. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that camp established to take care of trouble- 
makers at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; it is for all the W. R. A. camps. 

Mr. Eberharter. Have any of the troublemakers at Poston gone 
to this camp? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. No segregations have been made so far? 

Mr. Gelvin. It has only been recently set up. I think it is only 
very recently that it has been ready for occupation, 

Mr. Steedman. Do you at the present time have authority to put 
troublemakers in separate camps? 

Mr. Gelvin. Our procedure on that is to submit a document on the 
individual to Washington for approval to remove him to this center. 



UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8915 

Mr. Steedman. How many have you removed in this fashion? 

Mr. Gelvin. We haven't taken any to Liippe. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't removed tiny so-called troublemakers 
from the center at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. The F. B. I. have taken troublemakers out and have 
them in detention camps. 

Mr. Steedman. How many? 

Mr. Gelvin. About 18 have been removed since we were down 
there. 

Mr. Costello. What is the basis on which the F. B. I. removed 
those individuals? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you because we don't have access to 
the information that they have. 

Mr. Costello. What do they do? Do they merely notify the 
camp head that they wish to have certain individuals placed in their 
custody? 

Mr. Gelvin. No. They come in and notify us that they are taking 
out an individual. They might tell us why and they might not. 
Mostly all the officer has is just a warrant and it doesn't state the 
causes or reasons. 

Prior to very recently, why, they came in without notification — 
that is without contacting us, because they didn't have to. They 
have full access to go wherever they want to, but we kind of like to 
know it when they take somebody out. 

Mr. Steedman. The 18 they have removed are not and were not 
all the troublemakers in the camp, are they? 

Mr. Gelvin. I am afraid I would be rather optimistic if I said they 
were. 

Mr. Steedman. Because there are, undoubtedly, a large number who 
should be removed from the camp at Poston if you are going to have 
peaceful operations there and have no disloyal activities. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; 1 think so. I think some more should be 
removed. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you care to state your own personal opinion 
as to the percentage of the Japanese whom you believe to be loyal and 
disloyal? 

Mr. Gelvin. I would rather not give that percentage because it is 
so difficult to establish a formula to determine loyalty among any 
people. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you believe there are definite subversive move- 
ments on the part of some of the Japanese to alienate the loyal Japa- 
nese from their position of loyalty to the United States? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think there is. 

Mr. Steedman. There are certain efforts on the part of at least some 
of the Japanese to do that? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think there are attempts to do that thing; 3"es, 
sir. How successful it is, I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Has the Department of Justice returned any 
paroled aliens from the Department of Justice detention centers to 
Poston? 

^Ir. Gelvin. Yes; they have returned quite a few, 

Mr. Steedman. How many? 

Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't give you the exact figure. 

Mr. Steedman. Have these paroled aliens caused you any trouble 
since returning to the relocation center at Poston? 



8916 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Gelvin. No; as a rule they seem to be pretty peaceable. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all the questions I 
have. I will ask Mr. Empie the other questions that I have but 
which Mr. Gelvin is not able to answer. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have you any questions, Mr. Eberharter? 

Mr. Eberharter. You say the temperature at Poston was around 
130°. It gets much cooler than that at night, doesn't it? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; there is quite a wide range of temperature. I 
think the top temperature last summer was around 140°. 

Mr. Eberharter. And at night 

Mr. Gelvin. Of course, when you have that extreme heat you have 
very little relief at night. But if you have a temperature of, say 100, 
it might drop down to 70 or 65 at night, but during the middle of the 
summer when the heat is so severe, why, it is pretty hot at night. 

I know we have a desert cooler in our quarters and many nights 
during the sum_mer we kept it on all night. We don't like to have it 
on at night, however. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do you happen to know what the allowances 
are for soldier's rations in the Army? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Eberharter. You say 45 cents is allowed the Japanese? 

Mr. Gelvin. I believe it is 65 cents for soldiers. Our ration allow- 
ance is 45 cents but our average to date has been 38 cents. The cost 
is decreasing steadily as we get better organized and more efficient 
management. 

Mr. Eberharter. Has this food committee since being organized, 
made many complaints about the food and the way the food is 
served, and about the quality of tlie food or any other matters in that 
connection? 

Air. Gelvin. We had quite a little troub'e with food up until early 
last fall, but since that time 1 have heard very few complaints — that 
is, what I would consider serious complaints of a population of that 
size. You get, naturally, complaints on whatever was served. 

Mr. Eberharter. But the food committee as a group has not 
complained very often about the type of food that is being served or 
the amount of food? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't believe so. 

Mr. Eberharter. They seem to be pretty well satisfied? 

Mr. Gelvin. Seem to be pretty well- satisfied; yes. 

Mr, Eberharter. That is all. 

Mr. Gelvin. I might add at that point, for the most of February 
and March, the average food cost was 32 cents per day and the aver- 
age since the project started has been 38 cents. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there a consorship of outgoing or incoming mail 
at Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Is baggage searched as it comes in? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. As it goes out? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. But not coming in? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Then Japanese could ship in most anything they 
wanted to, could they not? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8917 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they could sliip in anything; tliat they could get 
someone to ship them, witli the exce])lion of radios. 

We luive had the express olhce — everything that comes in comes in 
through the express office and any short-wave radios which come in, 
why, they ai-e called to our attention and we have the short wave 
attachment r(>moved. We are not radio technicians and the list of 
contraband prohibits short-wave radios, with the exception of a wave 
band between 540 kilocycles and 1700. We are not radio tech- 
nicians and we cut out the whole short-wave measure. 

Mr. Steedman. Are Isseis allowed to have radios? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, standard wave band. 

Mr. Steedman. Any person in the camp can have a radio? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I would like to add at that point that the F. B. I. 
has made two checks with locators and have found no evidence of 
short wave — either of short-wave receiving or sending sets. 

Mr. Steedman. Can the F. B. I. with those locators determine 
whether or not a short-wave receiving set is in a neighborhood? 

Mr. Gelvin. I have been told that they can. 

Mr. Steedman. I understood they could only determine whether or 
not there were transmitting sets? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, I have been told that. However, I am not a 
radio technician and I couldn't swear to that. 

Mr. Steedman. That is all. 

Mr. Costello. Mr. Mundt, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Mundt. No. 

Mr. Costello. Do you have any statement you wish to make on 
your own accord before this committee, before we adjourn tonight 
and before you return to Poston? 

Mr. Gelvin. Well, there is only one statement that I care to make. 
I have tried here to give information to the best of my knowledge. 

We are a Government project operating under policies established 
by higher authorities than ourselves. I believe that is all I have to 
say. 

Mr. Mundt. Do you have any complaint of any kind about the 
manner in which these hearings have been conducted? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. Do you feel that counsel or any member of the com- 
mittee has in any way tried to prejudice your testimony at any time? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. You feel the committee and counsel have been abso- 
lutely fair? 

Mr. Gelvin. I think they have. 

Mr. Mundt. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Costello. If there were in the camp any short wave radios, 
there wouldn't be much prospect of your running across them, or 
locating them, would there? 

Mr. Gelvin. Not unless we were told that they were there. The 
F. B. I. picked up one man who ordered a short wave radio from a 
company. That company reported it to the F. B. I. and they picked 
him up and took him out for 3 months and then released him and he 
came back to the camp. 

Mr. Costello. Would it be possible for any of the younger Japa- 
nese who might be familiar with radio, to build a short wave set or 



8918 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

to adjust an existing set over to a short wave set capable of receiving 
short wave messages? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And you would have no means of directly knowing 
that? ^ 

Mr. Gelvin. No; we wouldn't directly know that until it had been 
told to us by some of the people in the camp, because we don't search 
the barracks. 

Mr. Costello. With reference to the publication of the camp 
newspaper: Is there any censorship of the articles before they are 
printed? 

Mr. Gelvin. We had a reports officer, who was a former newspaper- 
man, who handled that. However, he has left the project and we do 
not have a reports officer at the present time. 

We have placed that under the community activity department for 
them to handle the censorship; the reading of the articles, and so forth. 

Mr. Costello. And who is at the head of that? 

Mr. Gelvin. Dr. Powell. 

Mr. Costello. And he is an employee of the W. R. A.? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. Is there anyone who reads the Japanese articles 
which appear in that paper prior to publication? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Mr. Costello. No translation is made and submitted to Dr. Powell 
before it is published? 

Mr. Gelvin. No; only that copies of the paper are submitted to 
the W. R. A. in Washington. 

Mr. Costello. But subsequent to their publication? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. After they have been printed? 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; so if there is anything out of line it could be 
checked there. 

Mr. Costello. Do you know whether or not they attempt to 
translate Japanese articles that are printed? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Air. Costello. The paper that is printed in Salt Lake City, I 
believe under the auspices of the J. A. C. L., has no connection with 
the War Relocation Authority? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. 

Air. Costello. That is an independent Japanese newspaper and 
is completely removed from W. R. A. control, is that correct? 

Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. I am not familiar with the man- 
agement of it although I do see the paper each time it comes out, but 
to my knowledge there is no connection with the W. R. A. 

Mr. Costello. It has been filled with numerous criticisms of 
General DeWitt and other persons, with regard to the Japanese in 
these camps. The W. R. A. has no control over that situation? 

Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. We feel General DeWitt is above criticism 
in time of war. 

Mr. Costello. That particular paper in Salt Lake City has, I 
know, on several occasions contained numerous criticisms of General 
DeWitt and the regulations regarding the Japanese. 

Mr. Gelvin. Yes, I have seen those. 

Mr.' Costello. Is there anything further? 



UN-AJMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8919 

!Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask one more question. "Who was 
the press intelligence officer at the Foston Center? 

Mr. Gelvin. We didn't have a "press intelligence officer." It was 
a "reports officer." That was his title. His name was Norris James. 

Air. Steedman. When did he resign? 

Mr. Gelvin. It was about the middle of May, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. 1943? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. Steedman. Why did he resign? 

Air. Gelvin. He was going into the Navy. 

Air. Steedman. Was his work at Poston satisfactory? 

Air. Gelvin. His resignation was accepted without prejudice. 

Air. Steedman. Was he given a letter of recommendation when he 
left? 

Air. Gelvin. I don't know whether he was or not. 

Air. Steedman. Could you answer my question yes or no? Was 
his work satisfactory? 

Air. Gelvin. I would rather not answer the question yes or no. 
I would rather say that his resignation was accepted without prejudice. 

Air. Steedman. How long was he employed at Poston? 

Air. Gelvin. He came there about the 1st of Alay a year ago. 
He was there about a — he was there — • 

Air. Steedman. He was there a year? 

Air. Gelvin. Yes. 

Air. Steedman. That is all. 

Air. Costello. We appreciate very much your testimony today, 
Air. Gelvin. 1 think we have given you sort of an ordeal by starting 
at 10 o'clock this morning and winding up here at 6 o'clock in the 
evening. But we appreciate the frankness of your testimony and your 
efforts to cooperate with the committee. 

That Vv^ill conclude the hearings for today and we shall adjourn until 
tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 6 p. m., an adjournment was taken until 10 a. m.^ 
Wednesday, June 9, 1943.) 



IXVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA ACTIV- 
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 1943 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

The siibcommittoe met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States 
Post Office and Coiirthoiise, Los An2;eles, Calif., Hon. John M. 
Costello, chairman of tlie subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Hon. John AI. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and 
Hon. Karl E. Miiiult. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, 
acting counsel. 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. You may call 
your next witness, Mr. Steedman. 

Air. Steedman. Air. Empie, will you be sworn? 

Air. Costello. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about 
to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Air. Empie. I do. 

Air. Costello. You may proceed with the Cjuestioning of the wit- 
ness. Air. Steedman. 

TESTIMONY OF AUGUSTUS W. EMPIE, CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE 
OFFICER, COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION PROJECT, 
POSTON, ARIZ. 

Air. Steedman. Will you please state j^our full name for the 
record? 

Air. Empie. Augustus W. Empie. 

Air. Steedman. And will vou state vour present address? 

Air. Empie. Box 326, Parker, Ariz. ^ 

Air. Steedman. Do you live inside the Poston relocation center? 

Air. Empie. No, sir; I live at what is known as Silver City, the 
Irrigation Division head quarters of the Intiian Service. 

Air. Steedman. Are 3'ou married? 

Air. Empie. Yes. 

Air. Steedman. Where were you born? 

Air. Empie. Safforrl, Ariz. 

Air. Steedman. A^hen were j^ou born? 

Air. Empie. June 1, 1906. 

Air. Steedman. Have vou served in the armed forces of the United 
States? 

8921 



8922 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr, Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please state briefly where you went to 
school? 

Mr. Empie. I went to school through grammar school and high 
school at Safford. The only work that I had in university was a 
special accounting course at the American University in Washington, 
D. C; a correspondence course in accounting from the International 
Accountant Society. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you passed any C. P. A. examinations? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please give the committee an outline of 
the places you have worked? 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir. My work began in 1923 during the summer- 
school vacation period when I was employed as a clerk and bookkeeper 
by the Soloman Co. at Safford, Ariz. 

The next employment that I had was as a clerk-stenographer for 
the county agricultural agent of Graham County, Ariz. I served there 
during a school term for a 6-month period and out of school hours. 

My next employment began in September 1924 and ran through 
February 1925. I was employed as clerk-stenographer with the 
Bank of Safford at Safford, Ariz. 

At that time I took a civil-service examination and was selected 
from an eligible list submitted to the irrigation No. 4 district head- 
quarters at Los Angeles for a position of timekeeper, to be employed 
at Coolidge Dam project on the Gila River, Ariz. 

I reported for duty on June 1, 1925, and was employed in progres- 
sively more important positions in the Indian Service from that 
date until now. 

Mr. Steedman. When did you leave the Indian Service? 

Mr. Empie. I never left the Indian Service since I was employed 
18 years ago. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you at the present time employed by the 
Indian Service? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And what is your present position? 

Mr. Empie. Chief administrative officer. 

Mr. Steedman. At the Poston relocation center? 

Mr. Empie. Colorado River war relocation project is the official 
title of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. For the purpose of this record in order to speed 
up the testimony, we refer to that as "Poston." 

Mr. Empie. All right, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And you are paid from the Indian Service funds? 

Mr. Empie. We are paid from War Relocation Authority funds 
transferred to us on the books of the Treasury from the O. E. M. to 
the Indian Service. 

Mr. Steedman. What was your last position when you were 
actually working with the Indian Service itself? 

Mr. Empie. My title was senior accountant and auditor in charge 
of installation of accounting procedures and personnel organization 
throughout the Indian field service — approximately 100 field offices. 

Mr. Steedman. Where were your headquarters? 

Mr. Empie. Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Steedman. How long did you have t<hat position? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8923 

Mr. Empie. Approximately 7 years. 

^^r. Steedman. What was your salary at the time you left? 

Mr. Empie. $3,700. 

Mr. Steedman. What is your present salary? 

Hr. Empie. $5,G00. 

Mr. Steedman. When did you leave the position that you have 
referred to in the actual Indian Service? 

Mr. Empie. I was told to report to San Francisco on the 30th of 
March 1942, and report to the then project director at Poston, 
Mr. E. R. Fryer. 

Mr. Steedman. When did you arrive at Poston? 

•Mr. Empie. On the 19th of April 1942. 

Mr. Steedman. That was 3 days after the W. R. A. was set up by 
Executive order of the President, wasn't it? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; that was approximately 1 month after it was 
set up in March. 

Mr. Steedman. How many times have you been away from Poston 
since 3"ou were there last year? 

Mr. Empie. You mean on official business or otherwise? 

Mr. Steedm.\n. On official business first. 

Mr. Empie. Let me see. Oh, I would say roughly a half dozen 
times — one trip to Washington and probably three trips to Phoenix 
and as many to Los Angeles. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you away from Poston last Novemiber, if 
you recall? 

Mr. Empie. I don't believe I was. 

Mr. Steedman. You were at the project all during the month of 
November? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you at the project during all of the month 
of December? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I was over. here in December. 

Mr. Steedman. "Over here?" 

Mr. Empie. Yes; for a few days. 
t Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the day you left Poston? 

Mr. Empie. No; I don't know exactly. My recollection is about 
the 16th, somewhere along there. 

Mr. Steedman. \Miat was the purpose of your trip to Los Angeles? 

Mr. Empie. To confer with the Office for Emergency Management, 
Central Administrative Services, in connection with procurement 
work and selection of personnel to man certain positions in my 
organization. 

Air. Steedman. Were you over here during the Christmas season 
last year? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I presume that would be called the Christmas 
season or about that time. 

Mr. Steedman. You went back to Poston just after Christmas of 
last year; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. No; I was there at Christmas time. 

Mr. Steedman. You were at Poston at Christmas time? 

Mr. Empie. 1 didn't stay over here but just a few days. I think 
probably 3 or 4 days. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you taken your annual leave this year? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 



8924 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Air. Steedman. You have had no annual leave this year? 

Mr. Empie. No, sh-. 

Mr. Steedman. Had you had any actual experience with Japanese 
prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you always lived in Arizona? 

Mr. Empie. Well, not 

Mr. Steedman. Except for the period you were in Washington? 

Mr. Empie. I lived here at one time. 

Mr. Steedman. How long did you live in Arizona? 

Mr. Empie. I lived there from September 1928' through December 
1929. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever made a study of the Japanese 
language? 

Mr. IEmpie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you speak Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I would first like to take up the iri'igation system 
at Poston with you. Mr. Gelvin advised the committee that you 
would probabl}^ be able to testify to the estimated cost of the exten- 
sion of the irrigation system. Could you give us any idea what 
that is going to cost? 

Mr. Empie. You mean the over-all project cost? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. The long-range program? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. My estimate would be $10,000,000, just offhand. 

Mr. Steedman. And that extension is being built for the use of 
the relocation center; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. The part that is to be used for the relocation center 
and for the benefit of the evacuees is a very small portion of the total 
project. 

Mr. Steedman. What proportion of the total project would you 
say is being built for the exclusive use of the evacuees? 

Mr. Empie. Not to exceed 5,000 acres. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat w^ould you estimate the cost of that improve- 
ment to be? 

Mr. Empie. For this particular work? 

Mr. Steedman. -Yes. 

Mr. Empie. Oh, I would say $3,000,000 offhand. 

Mr. Steedman. This relocation program is a temporary expedient, 
isn't it, on the part of the W^ar Relocation Authority? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Then why are they spending $3,000,000 to build 
an irrigation system for the Japanese if it is only a temporary program? 

Mr. Empie. Well, it might be explained in this manner. In casting 
about for a place to locate the project, the Director of the War Relo- 
cation Authority contacted the Indian Office and the Secretary of the 
Interior and discussed the location at Poston. The Indian Service 
explained to the Director of W. R. A. — outlined the long-range program 
wliich had been presented to the Bureau of the Budget before and 
they mutually agreed it would be to the benefit of both parties con- 
cerned to locate there and on that basis money was allotted to the 
Indian Service, with the approval of the Bureau of the Budget, to 



UN-AAIERICAN- PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8925 

establisli tho camp there, with the iinderstandino; that a portion of the 
money woiiltl be ahotted to construct tlie main canal and a small part 
of the lateral system, to the extent necessary to serve tliis immediate 
area around the camp, and thus kill two birds with one stone, so to 
speak. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the Indian Service plan to use this irrigation 
system after the Japanese have been relocated in the Middle West? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; the over-all program calls for the construction of 
all irrigation facilities and project work to serve approximately 110,000 
acres of land. 

Mr. Steedman. Hasn't the Bureau of Reclamation been having 
some difhculty in securing settlers to settle on lands that have been 
reclaimed? 

Mr. Empie. Are you speaking of the Bureau of Reclamation? 

Mr. Steedman. I am speaking of the Bureau of Reclamation. 
You are familiar with their program ; are you not? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I am. I think probably that is trud; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, don't you think 

Mr. Empie. But that is just hearsa}^ 

Mr. Steedman. Don't you think that the Indian Service will have 
the same difficulty if they build this tremendous project? Don't you 
feel they will likewise be unable to get settlers on that land? 

Mr. Empie. Well, of course, all the work and all the efforts of the 
' Indian vService to develop land is primarily for the benefit of the 
Indians, and their long-range plan was to subjugate this land for the 
benefit of the southwestern tribes and locate them on that basis. 

In other words it would be supplementing their resources of the other 
reservations. 

Mr. Steedman. But this improvement is a permanent improve- 
ment; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Empie. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that your pg:-esent salary is 
$5,600 a year? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you pay subsistence out of that? 

Mr. Empie. Surely. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the project furnish you with an automobile? 

Mr. Empie. For my official business; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. What kind of an automobile is it? 

Mr. Empie. A 4-door Buick sedan, about a 1940 model, I beheve 
it is. 

Mr. Steedman. And they furnish you with gasoline and oil and 
tires? 

Mr. Emi^ie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many so-called pleasure cars are there at 
Boston? 

Mr. Empie. Do you mean by that 

Mr. Steedman. Automobiles? 

Mr. Empie. Passenger cars? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. Do you mind if I refer to my notes? 

Mr. vSteedman. No, go right ahead. 

Mr. Empie. We have 13 coupes and 42 sedans and 7 station wagons. 
I might say that these automobiles, some of them, were transferred to 

62026 — 43— vol. 15 7 



,8926 ' UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

US from the Army and other branches of the Government. These 
sedans were purchased, as I understand it, by the Army from the 
evacuees and sent to many of the projects for project use. 

Mr. Steedman. How did it happen that Miss Findley rated a 
Packard when she was there? 

Mr. Empie. The assignment of the automotive equipment was all. 
made under the direction of the — the general direction of the supply 
and transportation officer and the immediate direction of the dis- 
patcher. And if you could have seen the Packard and the trouble 
she had keeping it going, you wouldn't think much about it. 

Mr. Steedman. She had some bad tires too, didn't she? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, she did. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there a curfew at Poston now? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. You are not able to answer whether you have 
curfew there? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, I am not. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not any of the automotive 
equipment has been used after hours at Poston by the Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; it has. 

Mr. Steedman. For what purpose? 

Mr. Empie. Some for official business in caring for the maintenance 
of utilities by the police department and fire department, and in some 
instances, before we were able to exercise the right kind of control 
over it. for general purposes — just moving about the camp area. 

Mr. Steedman. Pleasure driving? 

Mr. Empie. Well, it might be considered that, yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the evacuees go on picnics wdth the automo- 
tive equipment? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. They did? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. To what extent? 

Mr. Empie. Well, on week ends and after hours. The river is 
nearby and there is very very little recreation there and they took 
the automobiles and went down there. 

Gradually we are tightening up on that more and more all the time; 

Mr. Steedman. Was it official Government equipment that was 
used? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are the Japanese allowed to have their own per- 
sonal cars in the camp? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; those cars, when they come in, are checked in 
by the dispatcher. The equipment in the car is listed so there will 
be no question about whose property moves out of the camp, and their 
cars are confined to the motor pool mitil they get ready to leave the 
camp. 

Mr. MuNDT. Who gives them permission to use the cars to go to 
picnics? 

Mr. Empie. For picnics? 

Mr. MuNDT. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. That is the responsibihty of the division heads — the 
people in charge of the work of the various divisions of the project 
being accountable officers as I am, under bond. It has been my sincere 



UN-AMERIC.\N PROPAG.\NDA ACTIVITIES 8927 

effort to solicit the cooperation of all the division heads on the project 
to successfully control the use of the equipment. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are the division heads white people or Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. ^^^lite. 

Mr. MuNDT. Shouldn't have very much difficulty getting their 
cooperation, should you, inasmuch as you are their immediate superior 
officer, aren't you? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I can't say that I am. I am not the project 
director. 

Mr. MuNDT. Doesn't somebody in the camp have authority to 
send out a memorandum to the division heads and say: "These cars 
shall not be used for certain purposes — period." 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. But that has not been done? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; it has been done. 

Mr. MuNDT. I understood you to say you were gradually tightening 
up on it. 

ATr. Empie. That is right, trying to, as I said,, put forth every 
efi'ort to get them to comply with the regulations that I have issued. 

Mr. MuNDT. And you are speaking of the white heads? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. But some of them are disinclined to follow the 
instructions issuing from the heads of the project? 

Mr. Empie. I beheve so, yes, sir. That is the impression I get 
from where I sit. 

• Mr. ^tIuNDT. What mea,ns have you taken to get a little better 
cooperation on the part of the division heads when they show such 
insubordination? 

Mr. Empie-. I have to look to the man in charge of the automotive 
equipment under my general direction. And I ask him to contact 
the division heads r.nd discuss the problem together with the project 
director, and ask him to impound all the equipment that is used 
a-busively. or what 1 consider ill 'gaily. 

Mr. MuKDT. It would be a correct statement of the case then, 
that the fact these <tjs are used by the Japanese for picnic purposes 
IS really due to a lack of diligence on the part of the division heads 
and not the Japanese appropriating the equipment and using it? 

;Mr. Empie. Absolutely. 

Mr. EiiERHARTER. When was this memorandum issued with respect 
to the use of this equipment for these purposes? 

Mr. Empie. In July 1942. 

Mr. Eberharter. July 1942? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. Steedmax. Will you state just briefly what your duties and 
responsibilities are at Boston? 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir; I have charge of, what is knowm in the project, 
organization of the administrative branch, which consists of the 
following divisions: Mails, Files, and Communications; Bersonnel, 
Supply and Transportation, Brocurement, Fiscal. 

In addition to those which "are ordinarily considered administra- 
tive services, I have general supervision over the chief steward's 
office. 

Mr. Steedmax. Are you diicctly responsible for the heads of the 
departments yuu have named? 



8928 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

Mr, Empie. I am, yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Let me ask this question: Is there anybody between 
you and Mr. Head; any official, or are vou responsible «iirectly to 
Mr. Head? 

Mr. Empie. That is right, except Mr. Gelvin, I work through 
him in Mr. Head's absence. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you write the memorandums directly t-o Mr. 
Head or do you route them through Mr. Gelvin? 

Mr. Empie. When Mr. Head is there I address them to him. 

Mr. MuNDT. In other words you don't have to go through Mr. 
Gelvin to reach Mr. Head? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a few moments again to 
the use of automotive equipment. Have any of the Japanese at 
Poston made automobile trips to visit their relatives and friends in 
the Middle West or in the East? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge — I don't know. 

Mr. Steadman. Would your records indicate whether or not such 
trips have been made? 

Mr. Empie. If they were in Government cars they would. Is that 
what you mean? You mean Government cars? 

Mr. Steedman. That is what I mean. They would have to use 
Government cars if they were going to travel by automobile from 
Poston, wouldn't they? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I guess they would now. They can't get any 
gasoline in Arizona. 

Mr. Steedman. And thej^ would also have to have an escort, 
wouldn't they? 

Mr. Empie. Unless they had an official pass from the Western 
Defense Command to travel in the zone. 

Mr. Steedman. This committee would like to have that information. 
Will you make a note on your memorandum to furnish the committee 
with the number of trips made by Japanese in Government-owned 
cars, to the Middle West and east coast, the date of the trips and the 
reasons, and the number of passengers, and whether there were 
Caucasian escorts? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Would your records also show when these cai-s are 
used for picnicking? 

Mr. Empie. I am afraid not; no, sir. It is only within the knowl- 
edge of the people who are trying to look after it. 

Mr. MuNDT. No reports are made of that unless you accidently 
discover the fact that they went on a picnic? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. MuNDT. W^ould you be able to estimate how many of those 
picnics have taken place since the memorandum was issued to stop 
that practice? That memorandum was issued in July, I believe you 
said. 

Mr. Empie. Oh, it would be pretty hard to estimate it, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Would you say there has just been one or two or three 
isolated instances? 

Mr. Empie. Oh, no; it is a regular occurrence. 

Mr. MuNDT. Going back to the division heads again, who failed to 
follow out this memorandum: You are in charge of them, aren't you? 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8929 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I am not in charge of them. 

Mr. MuNDT. Yom- chief of transportation under you is in charge 
of them? 

Mr. Empie. It can't be said that he is in charge of the other division 
heads; no, sir. You see — ^let me explain it this way, if you please. 

Mr. MuNDT. All right. 

Mr. Empie. These divisions that I am in charge of are established 
and maintained as facilitating divisions for all the other project 
operations. 

When the project director establishes a program he lines up all his 
division heads and says that so and so is a part of the program which 
we are responsible for. "Do you need any equipment, need any sup- 
plies, need any personnel? The materials will go to Mr. Empie's 
branch and he will try and help you out — establish the set-up to 
facilitate your work." 

And when they call on us for cars, we assign them the cars and we 
tell them what the requirements arc. Our work after that, so far as 
control of the equipment is concerned, is police work, you might call it. 

Mr. MrNDT. The memorandum stopping the pleasure use of thesis 
cars was issued by Mr. Head, is that right? 

Mr. Empie. I issued it and Mr. Head approved it. 

Mr. MuNDT. And the responsibility of enforcing it, at least over 
those divisions w^hich don't come under you, would flow from Mr. 
Head's office? 

Mr. Empie. I consider it that way, yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether or not any disciplinary measures 
were taken by Mr. Head against the division chiefs who failed to 
follow out the pm-port of his order? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were any men disciplined for violating that order? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. It is just a matter of general persuasion from him? 

Mr. Empie. I think it could be said that it is an educational pro- 
gram. We have a big job to do anfl they overlook the little details — 
what they consider little details, without a sense of responsibility or 
accountability for Government property. 

That has been my experience in the Indian Service for 18 years. 
It is a program that every administrative officer is up against to 
impress upon the officials of the Government in charge of various 
programs — the importance of keeping track of Government property 
after funds have been converted from cash into property. 

Mr. MuNDT. You might say that is a Nation-wide difficulty? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, I consider it so, yes, sir. 

Mr. MrNDT. That is all. 

Mr. Steedm.\n. Do your records indicate how much money has 
been spent at Poston since the camp was first started? 

Mr. Empie. I can give that to you in approximate figures. 

Mr. Steedman. That will be all right. 

Mr. Empit". $9,600,000. That is including an estiinate to June 30, 
for the month of June. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the project completed at this time? 

Mr. Empie. No. sir. it isn't. 

Mr. Steedman. How much more money is intended to be spent 
there? 



8930 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Empie. As far as construction is concerned, enough to com- 
plete the clearing of 5,000 acres of kind. 

Mr. Steedman. Will any more money be spent for buildings — ■ 
administrative buildings and barracks? 

Mr. Empie. We have a progi-am now to construct 20 4-family 
apartments for the administrative personnel. 

Mr. Steedman. If it is the policy of the W. R. A. to relocate the 
evacuees in the Middle West and East, why are more barracks being 
built and more money being spent? 

Mr. Empie. If you will allow me to I will explain it in this way: 
When this program was undertaken we drained the Indian Service 
personnel resources to man the project. To get the job done we called 
on these people from every part of the country and all over the various 
Indian reservations. 

They came in there leaving their families at home because they 
were told that there was no place for them to live; that they woidd 
have to come in there and leave their families unless they were willing 
to put up with one-room barrack-type quarters. 

Some of them came and brought their families; some have children 
that have lived for the last year in very close quarters, and it is really 
remarkable to me that they have remained with us. It has been a 
very trying situation as far as living conditions are concerned, because 
of the lack of facilities we have had at our disposal. 

Mr. Steedman. The proposed buildings are to house the Caucasian 
personnel; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; the 20 4-family units. 

Mr. MuNDT. In that connection, when Mr. Gelvin left the Indian 
Service and went to the relocation center he received a substantial 
increase m pay? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. And you did likewise? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is that general of all these Indian Service employees, 
or was that primarily just for you two? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, that is general. 

Mr. MuNDT. Most of those who went to Poston received a sub- 
stantial mcrease in pay? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; and I would like to add that that is a classifica- 
tion of all those positions which was approved first, in the Indian 
Office — first, I should say, by the Bureau of the Budget who gave us 
the allotment, and next by the Indian Office through the Classification 
Division of the Secretary of the Interior's Office and the Civil Service 
Commission. 

These positions were all filled in that manner. 

Mr. Steedman. They would have to be approved in that manner 
or you couldn't receive your salary check; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Empie. That is right. 

Mr. Costello. Speaking about the $9,600,000 cost, does that refer 
merely to the buildings and improvements that have been put in 
the camp? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; that is the total expenditures for all purposes. 

Mr. Costello. And that includes food and living expenses and 
things of that character? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8931 

Mr. Costp:llo. As well as the salaries of the employees, and wages 
pnid out? 

Mr. E.MPiE. Yes. sir. 

Mr. MfxXdt. Coiik) you break that up between project cost per se, 
the building project, and the operating costs? 

]Mr. Empie. 1 might quote some figures here if that would be helpful 
to you. That would indicate some of the details. 

Air. MuNDT. I would lilvc to have that. 

Mr. Empie. I won't guarantee them — I won't guarantee that they 
will all tie together when I get through. 

M,r. CosiELLo. Just give us an estimate so we can have some idea 
of the picture. 

Mr. Empie. We have our allotment ledgers broken down by budget 
objective classes for the various branches of the project, and if you 
would like to have me 1 will read these oil" that make up that total 
[reading!: 

What we consider as administrative expenses, $480,000. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that per month? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, that is for a 12 months' period. This is for the 
year 1943 [reading]: 

Agriculture and industry $.390, 000 

Education 296,000 

Health and sanitation 153, 000 

Welfare and recreation 10, 000 

Employment and placement : 26, 000 

Fire protection 22, 000 

Internal security 74, 000 

Japanese labor or subsistence, public assistance grants, unemployment 

compensation, clothing allowances, and leave assistance 5, 608, 000 

Public Work total 2, 571, 000 

That is broken down as follows: 

Buildings and grounds__. . $725, 000 

Drainage 130,000 

Flood control ^ 3,000 

Irrigation 533, 000 

Roads 1 84, 000 

Subjugation 1 . 154, 000 

Additions to electric plant i 30, 000 

Operation and mamtenance (that is, utilities and ground, and so forth) _. 801, 000 

That is the total of $9,600,000 in round figures. 

Mr. Mi'XDT. That is the figure for a camp of how many people dur- 
ing that period? 

Mr. Empie. An average population since its inception of appro .vi- 
mately 17.000. 

Mr. MuNDT. Could you tell us how much there was for leave 
assistance alone? You have that grouped with quite a few other 
items. Do you have it broken down further? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; leave assistance, an average for the 12 months' 
period, $14,600 a month. However, that figure 

Mr. MuNDT. $14,600 per month? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; that figure, however, might be misleading 
because those leave grants were not authorized prior to March 24 of 
this year. 

Mr. MuNDT. That includes what? Does that include the $50 cash 
allotment that an evacuee gets if he needs it? 



8932 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES. 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. What else; railroad tickets? Do you pay for that? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is there anything else? Is there a clothing allotment 
of any kind? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, that is made up of the coach fare for each 
member of the family. The applicant and each member of his family 
receive the following: $50 for himself 

Mr. MuNDT. And not for the rest of the family? 

Mr. Empie. For himself, $25 for the first dependent, and $25 for all 
additional dependents, whether it is one or five. 

Mr. MuNDT. And that is all that enters into that figure of $14,600? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. Would you like to have some of the figures on 
payments to the evacuees? 

Mr. MuNDT. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. I might refer again to the — to refresh your memory, to 
the $5,608,000. That is an average expenditure of $467,000 made up 
as follows: Approximately $107,000 for labor; clothing, $71,000; unem- 
ployment compensation, $420,000; food, $203,000; and the leave 
grants of $14,600; public assistance, $203,000; and all other miscel- 
laneous operating expenses chargeable to the feeding, housing, and 
clothing of the evacuees, including fuel oil to operate the kitchens, and 
block manager supplies such as, for the community buildings, such as 
disinfectants, toilet paper, and things of that nature, miscellaneous 
supplies and equipment for operating the mess halls — that is, replace- 
ments and so forth— $69,000. 

That makes up the $467,000 per month. 

Mr. MuNDT. Thank you. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the estimated cost of the subjugation 
of the 5,000 acres of land which you intend to put into cultivation in 
the near future? 

Mr. Empie. It is averaging roughly $125 an acre to subjugate the 
land — that is, clearing it and leveling it and bordering it in making 
it ready for irrigation. 

Mr. Steedman. Who will work this land after you get it subju- 
gated? 

Mr. Empie. During the operation of the relocation project, it will 
be operated by the evacuees from a subsistence standpoint. 

Mr. Steedman. The program of the W. R. A. is to relocate the 
evacuees in the Middle West; isn't that right? 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir; that is their program, but it is not taking 
efi'ect as fast as they thought it would. There are going to be a lot 
of Japanese on the project for a long time after they estimated they 
would be gone. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, most of the Japanese who are being evacu- 
ated at the present time into the Middle West are young Japanese, 
are they not? 

Mr. Empie. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. They are the ones who could work this land; isn't 
that right? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, not necessarily. We have a great many older 
Japanese who are experienced farmers and really want to work the 
land. They are the boys that get out and work the land. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8933 

Mr. Steedman. Well, you will bo left with the older people there 
at Poston to work these 5,000 acres of land that you subjugate. 
Isn't that correct? 

Mr. Empie. I don't think many of them can be considered "old." 
They are older than the younger ones that go out, but they are not 
decrepit by any means. 

Mr. Steedman. WTiat is the average age of the Issei? Do you 
have any estimate of that? 

Mr. Empie. It would be just an estimate on my part, but I imagine 
50 years old. 

Mr. MuNDT. And they are mostly people who were farming some 
place along the west coast before they were evacuated; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. I understand that, and this again is an estimate on 
my part, but approximately 60 percent of our people were associated 
with farming activities before they went there. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You spoke of the plan of the War Relocation 
Authority to relocate these people in the Midwest. It isn't any 
part of their plan to locate any of these Japanese evacuees here on the 
Pacific coast again, is it? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was it ever a part of their program to do that? 

Mr. Empie. Are you speaking from our project standpoint or from 
the national standpoint? 

Mr. CosTELLO. From the national standpoint of the W. R. A., 
if you have any information on that. 

Mr. Empie. I have never heard it mentioned myself, that they 
were actually planning to try to get them moved back until after the 
war was over. 

Mr. CosTELLo. And as far as you are concerned locally at Poston, 
that has not been your program? 

Mr. Empie. That is right, it has not. 

Mr. MuNDT. Does the W. R. A. have any plan or tentative plan 
for what is to be done with these Japanese after the war is over? 

Mr. Empie. The W. R. A.? 

Mr. MuNDT. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. I think that is a problem that we have all got to face. 
I think they are groping for the answer to that problem. As you 
and I know, the Californians do not seem to want them and Arizona 
doesn't want them, and that is about the size of it. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of anybody who does want them? 

Mr. Empie. Not imtil they become acquainted with them. Never 
having been acquainted with them or associated with them before, 
they don't know who they are dealing with and, consequently, it ia 
natural for them to be suspicious of them. 

I think the people, the Japanese people, who are sincere and trying 
to demonstrate their understanding of the principles of democracy, 
there is a tendency, I will say, on the part of the people with whom 
they become associated to give them some credit for the work that 
they try to do. In other words I think it is a fact that the — if I 
might go on just a little more? 

Mr. MuNDT. Yes, go ahead. 

Mr. Empie. That the Japanese people have been confined so long 
in California and have never gone anywhere else in the United States, 
it is just something that we are up against. 



8934 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS 

Now, we had to move them out of here for the prosecution of the 
war, which I think was a good thing, and now what to do with them is 
a big problem. 

Mr. Steedman. I beheve you stated that the people of Arizona 
don't want the Japanese to relocate in the State of Arizona? 

Mr. Empie. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that the attitude of the people around Phoenix? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Generally? 

Mr. Empie. From the reports that I get; yes, sir. I have never 
talked to any of them over there. I attended a hearing, however, at 
Phoenix that Senator Chandler conducted, at which it was very 
forcibly expressed they didn't want them there. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the project have at this time a contract with 
a man by the name of Mr. Mclntyre? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What is Mr. Mclntyre's first name? 

Mr. Empie. I can't say, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What type of business or occupation is Mr. 
Mclntyre engaged in? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know, except that I understand he deals in 
rental of equipment and sale of various kinds of construction machinery 
and so forth. 

Mr. Steedman. Does he rent certain equipment to the project at 
Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; we have on rental from him, as I remember, 
about three tank trucks that we use on road maintenance. 

Mr. Steedman. Sprinkler trucks? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat is the rate of pay per hour that Mr. Mc- 
lntyre receives for those three trucks? 

Mr. Empie. $2.75. 

Mr. Steedman. How many hours per day do you guarantee him 
to use the trucks? 

Mr. Empie. I don't remember, Mr. Steedman. I would have to 
refer to the contract for that. 

Mr." Steedman. Do you think that you guarantee him as many as 
16 hours a day? 

Mr. Empie. I am sorry, I don't recall, but it is entirely possible 
because we have to run two or three shifts to keep the road wet 
down enough to maintain it. It is a desert road — well, you wouldn't 
call it a "desert road" but it is a gravel road and that country is very 
arid and it takes a lot of water to keep it wet. 

Mr. Steedman. $2.75. Does that include the pay of the driver of 
the truck? 

Mr. Empie. If you don't mind me taking a little time here, I think 
I have a note on that somewhere. No, I don't. I don't know whether 
it does or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that the usual rental for trucks aroimd Parker? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know as you would say "around Parker" 
but this contract was entered into after circulating advertisements for 
bids for that type of equipment and the low bid was accepted and 
under the terms of the contract the rate charged by the contractor is 
guaranteed not to exceed the ceiling price set by the Office of Price 
Administration. 



UN"-AMEEICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8935 

Mr. Steedman. You mean the per hour ceiling price on the rental 
of trucks? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; including all the services or expense that that 
is supposed to cover. 

Mr. Steedman. That is an unusual service and probably no other 
service in that area would be comparable to that? 

Mr. Empie. I think that is right. 

Mr. Steedman. So the $2.75 an hour wouldn't be a yardstick or any 
criterion to go by? 

Mr. Empie. Except the estimates that the engineers give us. They 
considered that a fair basis. 

I might say for your information that these trucks are rented from 
Mr. Mclntyre and operated under the direct supervision of the road 
engineer. 

Air. Steedman. Does the project furnish gasoline for the trucks? 

Mr. Empie. I am not sure about that. I could give you a copy of 
the contract if you would like to have it. 

Mr. Steedman. We would like to have it and will appreciate your 
furnishing it for the benefit of the committee. 

Mr. Empie. All right, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Why don't you use your own equipment for this 
work? 

Mr. Empie. I have asked that same question of the road engineer 
man}' times in checking up on this equipment, and he has assured me 
that he had more work of that natm-e than he can handle with our 
equipment. He needs this additional equipment to complete the job 
and he has assumed the responsibility for that. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't want to assume responsibility for that 
contract yourself, do you? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I am the contracting officer and I signed the 
contract but it was for the benefit of the road engineer, whom I have 
to rely upon. 

Mr. Mundt. Who is your road engineer? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. Lyle Wormock. 

Mr. Mitndt. Is he an Ai-my engineer or is he with the Ai-my engi- 
neers? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; he is an Indian Service employee, employed 
under the Public Works Division, and is under the general supervision 
of the chief engineer for the project. 

In other words, he is a part of the public works program. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you hesitate to sign the contract for these 
three tank trucks? 

Mr. Empie. Yes sir; on my own judgment. But we have to discuss 
those things together and arrive at a mutual understanding about 
the prosecution of the program. 

Mr. Steedman. You thought it was extravagant, didn't you? 

Mr. Empie. I think I did; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Iq furnishing the information about the contract, 
the committee would like also to have the amount of money that you 
have paid Mr. Mclntyre since the beginning of the project, and we 
would like to have those figures broken down by months. 

Mr. Empie. All right, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have the authorities at Poston had much trouble 
because of the Japanese speeding in Government-owned motor 
equipment in and around the project? 



8936 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Empie. I would say not; no, sir. We have had a normal 
amount of that, I would say. 

Mr. Steedman. You have had some? 

:vir. Empie. Some, yes. Not any more than the white personnel, 
I would say. 

Mr. Steedman. Then the white personnel is equally guilty of 
speeding with Government equipment in and around the project? 

Mr. Empie. I have checked it up on several of them personally and 
have found they w ere exceeding the national speed limit of 35 miles an 
hour in two or three instances, and I have called it to their attention 
and explained that disciplinary action would be taken unless they fell 
in line with that policy, not only from a compliance from a national 
standpoint, but for the preservation of. the equipment, which is scarce 
and hard to get and hard to maintain. 

Mr. Steedman. How many new tires have been received at Poston 
since the project started? 

Mr. Empie. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have an approximate figure of the new tires 
received at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. It would be a guess. 

Mr. Steedman. All right. 

Mr. Empie. T would say maybe 400. 

Mr. Steedman. Are those tires obtained through the O. P. A. 
rationing board at Parker? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. All of our tires come from the Ordnance 
Department, the A'lotor Maintenance Division of the United States 
Army. 

Mr. Steedman. At Phoenix? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. It is not necessary for you to go through the usual 
routine of obtaining tires through the rationing boards? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; not now. We did at the start of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. At one time you did have to go tlu-ough the ration- 
ing boards in order to secure tires? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you find that to be a rather difficult procedure? 

Mr. Empie. Not very; no, sir. They were cooperative. They 
inspected the vehicles exactly in the same maimer as any private auto- 
mobile would be inspected. The tire numbers were all recorded. 

The supply and transportation officer under the authority issued by 
the local board, made the inspections and I approved each one of them 
individually myself. 

Mr. Steedman. Why was the procedure for procurmg new tires 
changed? 

Mr. Empie. Through the efforts of the W. R. A. in Washington, the 
assistance of the Army was solicited and secured in getting rubber for 
our use. 

Mr. Steedman. Did it develop that there was too much routine for 
each and every official of the project at Poston to go through the 
rationing board at Parker? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I wouldn't say it was. We worked that out 
then on a systematic basis in line with their requirements. As far as 
we were concrened, we were getting along all right. 



UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8937 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall a Japanese truck driver by the name 
of Hasagawa being reported as driving a project truck at 55 miles an 
Lour between Foston and Parker? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; that never came to my attention. 

Air. Steedman. If such an instance had come to your attention, 
what disciplinary action would you have taken against Mr. Hasagawa? 

Mr. Empie. 1 would have reported it to his division supervisor and 
ask that he be laid ofl' and removed from the pay roll. That has been 
done in many instances. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall a strike at Poston that started last 
November 18? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you there during the strike? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You were there at all times during the strike? 

Mr. Empie. All the time, 3'(s; except for the time I am away in 
the evening at home. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese police during the strike com- 
mandeer the project automobiles without proper explanation to the 
dispatcher? 

\h\ Empie. The police department was instructed after a 2- or 
3-day period to commandeer the equipment and return it to the motor 
pool, where it belonged, which they did forthwith. 

Mr. AIuNDT. What had happened up to that time that led to the 
order to commandeer the equipment? 

Mr. Empie. I left tluit u]) to my supply and transportation officer 
who was supposed to tai.e care of that, and since he was unable to 
do it. I took charge cf it myself. In fact he left about that time when 
I needed him the most. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did he resign? 

Mr. Empie. Sir? 

Mr. MuNDT. You mean he quit the job? 

Mr. Empie. No; he asked for a leave from the project. 

Mr. Steedman. And who was that? 

Mr. Empie. Harold H. Townsend. 

Mr. Steedman. He asked for annual leave? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; he did. He came to me and told me that his wife 
was ill and he wanted to know if 1 had any objection to his leaving the 
project so he might take her home, and I told him— — 

Mr. Costello. Was that at the time of the strike or before the 
strike? 

Mr. Empie. That was during the strike. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall what day of the strike Mr. Townsend 
made that request of you? 

JMr. Empie. It was either the 20th or 21st of November. 

Mr. Steedman. And the strike had been going on for 2 or 3 davs? 

Mr. Empie. It started the 18th. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you give Mr. Townsend permission to go to 
Los Angeles at that time? 

Mr. Empie. He told me that he wanted to leave the project to 
bring his wife home. 

Air. .'teedman. Wiiere was his home? 

Air. Empie. 1 don't know, i don't know; I assumed at the time, 
and thinking back over it later, I assumed his home was here in Los 



8938 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

Angeles because I interviewed him here for the job. I didn't know 
where be was going until then. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did he leave then on the 20th of 21st? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; and in connection with that I would like to 
bring that point out now. 

At about that same time I received a long-distance telephone call 
from one of our truck drivers who had been dispatched on a mission 
away from the project to haul lumber from one of our Indian reserva- 
tions. He said that he was broken down at a little town called Selig- 
man, Ariz., and needed a head gasket for his car. 

I reported that to Mr. Townsend and it developed later that his 
trip away from the project to Seligman and return was covered by an 
official travel order issued to him for that piu-pose. 

Now, when he came back — do you want me to go into this? 

Mr. Steedman. When did Mr. Townsend return? 

Mr. Empie. He got back about the 25th, as I remember it. 

Mr. Steedman. After the strike was over? 

Mr. Empie. At about the time it was over. It lasted about a week 
and he got back about that time. 

Mr. Steedman. Then he was away from the project from the 21st 
to the 25th? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do your records indicate the time he was away 
from Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; they do. He showed the time he was away. 

Mr. Steedman. On the official records? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I think they do. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you approve a leave card for him when he 
left? 

Mr. Empie. I don't recall that I signed a leave card, but he had a 
certain amount of leave on record about that time. I have looked it 
up since. 

Mr. Steedman. The regular Government leave system obtains 
there, does it not? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; it does. When he returned from this trip he 
turned in a travel log that we issue to all employees who leave the 
project on official business, from which a travel voucher for reimburse- 
ment of traveling expenses is prepared by the voucher clerk in the 
office. 

This log was incomplete to the extent that a voucher could not be 
prepared. There was some information missing. The girl in charge 
of that work or in charge of writing the vouchers, had such a volume 
of work to do she just laid it to one side until she could get some 
information about it, and it wasn't until after Mr. Townsend left the 
project that it came to my attention that there was something wrong 
with that travel log. 

When it did come to my attention, it came through the efforts of 
the new Supply and Transportation Office, in attempting to get 
information to help prepare the voucher. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the new Supply and Transportation officer? 
What is his name? 

Mr. Empie. F. M. Haverland. , 

Mr. Steedman. What is his salarv? 

Mr, Empie. $3,800. 



, 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8939 

Mr. Steedman. By the way, what was Mr. Towiiseml's salary 
when ho went to work at Poston? Do voii recall that? 
Mr. Empie. As I recall it was $3,800.' 

Mr. Steedman. What was his salary when he left Poston? 
Mr. Empie. The same. 
Mr. Steedman. Go riijht ahead. 

Mr. CosTELLO. \Vhat was the final date of the departure of Mr. 
Townsend from the project? 

]Mr. Empie. Mr. Townsend's last day of service, including a terminal 
leave that he had coming;, was January 2, 1943. When we began to 
check nito this trip that he made to Seiigman, it came to our attention, 
by going through the credit slips that were issued by the oil companies 
from w hom we get gasoline on the service station delivery contract, 
that he had been other places than to Seligman and back. 

Now, we began to trace his trip then through the use and reference 
to these credit slips and found where he had wound up in Oklahoma 
City with this Government car. We' traced his trip back from there 
down to the project or near the project. The last slip. I think, that 
we have a record of. was at Gallup, on his way back^Gallup, N. Mex. 
Naturally, that being the case, he had apparently seen fit not to 
complete his travel log. I don't know whether he thought we were 
going to guess at what happened in order to prepare it and present 
it to him for signature. I have never had a chance to talk to him 
about it. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he submit the travel log under his own sig- 
nature? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; he did. 
Mr. Steedman. Requesting payment? 
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; turned it in for payment. 
Mr. Steedman. Was it ever paid? 
Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And did Mr. Townsend travel to Oklahoma City 
in a Government-owned automobile? 
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mp. Steedman. And you have records to substantiate that state- 
ment? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Steedman. Are there similar instances at Poston where other 
personnel have traveled to other points in Government-owned cars? 
;Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't know anything about that? 
Mr. Empie. Not on private business, that is. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made any investigation to determine 
whether or not that is the situation? 
Mr. Empie. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Steedman. And you are pretty certain there has been none 
of that at Poston? 

Mr. P^MPiE. You mean by other employees? 
Mr. Steedman. Yes. ^ • 

Mr. Empie. I think it is pretty safe; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the voucher submitted by Mr. Townsend in 
connection with that trip paid? 

Mr. Empie. It couldn't be certified because the facts could not be 
stated in voucher form; no, sir. 



8940 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have any Japanese been allowed to leave the 
reservation in that manner, and taking a Government car and going 
some distance and return? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Ordinarily the only time they would leave the 
project in a Government car would be when accompanied by some 
white overseer with them? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; on official business some place covered by a 
travel log. 

Mr, CosTELLO. They would not be able to take a car out of the 
camp on their own personal business? 

Mr. Empie. No. 

Mr. MuNDT. What was the point of importance about this long- 
distance telephone call from the fellow who had the broken head 
gasket? Was that Townsend? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; it was a man by the name of Max Chavich, 
who operated one of our big 'trucks and trailers. He had gone 
after lumber. He was operating under Mr. Townsend's direction. 
He had gone after the lumber and he called the project and asked for 
somebody to bring him the gasket. That part of the trip from Poston 
to Seligman and return was official, as far as Mr. Townsend was con- 
cerned. 

Mr. MuNDT. It was on that trip that Townsend went to Oklahoma 
City? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. I understand now; I didn't get the connection. 

Mr. Steedman. How long did this trip to Oklahoma by Mr. 
Townsend require? 

Mr. Empie. Well, he was gone from the 22d. He got back about 
the 25th — about 3 days, I guess, there and back. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that on the occasion when he told you his wife 
was ill and he' wanted to take her home? 

Mr. Empie. That was the same time; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And when he left you knew he was taking his wife 
home, didn't you? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I did. That is what he told me he was going 
to do. I didn't ask him, "Are you going to use a Government car, 
and be sure you don't now, because it is against the law." I assumed 
that he had his own means of conveyance to take his wife wherever 
his home was. I assumed that. I had no knowledge of it. 

Mr. Steedman. But you did give him permission to take his wife 
home? 

Mr. Empie. I gave him permission to leave the project on leave. 
He told me that he wanted to take his wife home. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you drive a Government-owned car between 
the project and your home? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You do? 

Mr. Empie. Many of us do that because there are not sufficient 
quarters in Poston in which to be housed. 

Air. Steedman. And how far is Parker from the relocation center 
at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. vSixteen miles. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8941 

Mr. Steedman. Then you drive 32 miles a day back and forth from 
your liome to the center at Poston? 

Air. Empie. That is right; yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did this man Townsend take the head gasket from 
Poston over to thivS other town in Arizona? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; he did. 

Mr. MuNDT. On his way out of the camp? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. And you knew he was going to do that? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Your understanding was 

Mr. Empie. Excuse me, but I woukl hke to make it clear that at 
the time he came in to see me about leaving, I didn't know that he 
was going by the way of Seligman to take this gasket. It wasn't until 
afterward that it came out that that was what had happened. 

What actually took place was, to be perfectly frank about it and 
tell you the sequence of events, when he came back he presented me 
with the travel order to cover his official trip from Poston to Seligman 
and return, havuig a knowledge of this man up there broken down and 
needing a gasket, that part of his travel was approved. I thought it 
was all legal. 

Mr. MuNDT. And you paid for that part of it? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; it hasn't been paid because it is mixed up in the 
other trip. 

Mr. MuNDT. At any other time during Mr. Townsend's employ- 
ment, did you have any reason to question his veracity? 

Mr. Empie. He was always very evasive in response to questions 
that I would put to him about various parts of his w^ork. He seemed 
to have that manner about him. He was a man that had had no 
Government experience before and he was in charge of a responsible 
part of my organization and I had'to look to him for a lot of work. 
^ Mr. MuNDT. Tell the committee how you happened to hire him. 
You say you interviewed him here in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir, I contacted the recruitment office of the Office 
for Emergency Management, 1031 South Broadway, and asked them 
to assist me in selecting various people for positions out there that 
we hadn't been able to fill by selecting them from the Indian Service 
ranks and transferring them there. 

Mr. Townsend was interviewed by myself to fill this position. He 
deemed to have a good record. I couldn't find a thing wrong with it. 
He liad worked for the Indian Service years ago in Oklahoma, around 
the 1900's. I don't remember the date. I suppose being an old 
Indian Service man myself — — 

Mr. MuNDT. He didn't show any evasiveness when you inter- 
viewed him the first time? 

Mr. Empie. No, he didn't. I w^as well impressed with him, and 
Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin were well impressed with him. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you suppose he got that way from contacting the 
Japanese out there? 

Mr. Empie. I couldn't say. 

Mr. MuxDT. Why did you discharge him? Was it because of tliis 
trip he made? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I didn't know anything about that at the 
time. 

62ei;6— 43— vol. 15^ 8 



8942 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. \Vhat motivated you to discharge him? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelviii both asked me several times 
to dismiss Mr, Townsend. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did they give any reason for their request? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; they did. He had a very pecuhar way of dealing 
with the evacuees. Everything he said to them seemed to stir them 
up. He made a lot of flowery talks to them and they had no respect 
for him. He couldn't tell them to do anything and rely on them doing 
it, because they had no confidence in him, I think, as near as I could 
judge. 

And during the strike Mr. Townsend was fomenting unrest among 
the ranks of the appointed personnel, to use W, R. A. jargon. 

Mr. Steedman. What personnel? W. R. A. personnel? 

Mr. Empie. That is right, yes; the white people living there. 

Mr. Steedman. In what way was he fomenting unrest? 

Mr. Empie. He seemed to have an idea that the Japanese people 
were going to swoop down on us and going to scalp all of us. 

Mr. Steedman. That w^as during the time the Japanese were strik- 
ing and walking up and down in front of the administrative buildings? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see any marching up and down during the 
strike? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. None at all? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. It was a very peaceful strike? 

Mr. Empie. I think so, yes; as near as I could make out. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any pictures that were taken during 
the strike? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I haven't. 

Mr. Steedman. Does anyone at the center have such pictures? 

Mr. Empie. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Steedman. Was any Government property destroyed during 
the strike? 

Mr. Empie. With the exception of about a case of milk, I think 
that is all we lost in the whole show. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you explain how that happened? 

Mr. Empie. It would be just second-hand reports that came to me 
through Mr. Townsend, so you can see how I would feel about that.- 
He said that some of these boys on the delivery trucks got rambunc- 
tious and started throwing milk around. 

I did have it reported to me by one of the boys over in the dis- 
patcher's office that one of them threw a carton of milk into the side 
of the building. That is the only thing I remember. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any explanation as to why the milk 
truck was interrupted? Did they want to direct the delivery of the 
milk to some other location other than the commissary? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; except the truck happened to be coming in 
about that time. That would be the only explanation that I could 
have. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Wasn't it because the Japanese were trying to take 
over the running of the truck? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Or commandeer the load? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8943 

Mr. EivLPiE. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. MuNDT. "W'lio was drivino; the truck? Was it the regular 
dairy company driver or was it some camp emplo3a^e? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know, Mr. Congressman. I wasn't there. 

Mr. MuNDT. What is the customary practice in the delivery of the 
milk? Is it delivered by the drivers of the milk company? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; they bring the. loads into the camp and it is un- 
loaded either onto our delivery trucks or into the reefers until we can 
get the trucks up to the reefers and then delivered. 

Mr. MuNDT. Then the milk company would probably know who 
the driver was? 

Mr. Empie. I think so. 

Mr. MrxDT. Whether such an event actually took place or not. 

Mr. Empie. I have an idea they would. 

Mr. Costello. Was any violence shown toward the driver of the 
truck? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge. I don't know — I don't 
believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated Mr. Tow^lsend was evasive 
in discussing his work with you? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedmax. Do j^ou think that was due to the fact that he had 
difficult^' expressing himself? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedmax. Was he evasive in the memorandums that he wrote 
to you? 

Mr. Empie. No; he wrote some pretty good memorandums. 

Mr. Steedmax. Pie was pretty direct and frank in writing to you 
in his memorandums, was he not? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; he called my attention to many things that 
my attention should have been called to and together we tried to do 
something about it. I will say this for Mr. Townsend, I thought all 
along that he was a very conscientious employee and was trying to 
do the best job he could, but I have a feeling yet that he was, in 
many respects, very conscientious in his work. 

Mr. Steedm.^x. He had been in private business and did not under- 
stand Government routine very well; isn't that a fact? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Steedmax. And he wanted these Japanese to work? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedmax. And respect Government property and so on? 

Mr. Empie. That is right; he did. 

Mr. Costello. We will take a recess for a few minutes. 

(Tliereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. 

You may proceed, Mr. Steedman. 
^ Mr. Steedmax. Mr. Chairman, we were discussing the incident on 
November 18, 1942, when the Japanese chief of police at Camp No. 1 
had some trouble with the dispatcher regarding Government auto- 
mobiles at Poston, and since the question has come into the testimony 
regarding Mr. Townsend's ability to express himself, I w-ould like to 
offer into evidence at this time a copy of a memorandum dated 
November 17, 1942, addressed Mr. A. W. Empie, and signed by Mr. 
H. H. ToW'Usend. 



8944 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I would like to read that into the record. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is an actual copy of the original memorandum? 

Mr. Steedman. I am so informed, yes. sir. Can you identify this 
memorandum, or the substance, of it? [Handing document to the 
witness.] 

Mr. CosTELLO. You might read it into the record. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

On the night of November 16, as an aftermath of the bulletin No. 1, the Japanese 
chief of police of Camp 1 accompanied by a number of officers, again reported 
at the impounding lot and in his discussion with the Caucasian dispatcher, among 
other unwholesome comments, made the statement that he was not taking any 
orders from any * * * white trash. 

This matter was also reported to me by one or more of our employees. 

That is signed, "H. H. Townsend, supply and transportation officer." 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall such a memorandum? 

Mr. Empie. I wouldn't say I didn't get it. I don't remember it. 
I remember the instance, however. 

Air. Steedman. You remember the incident? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; he told me that or I received that. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the Japanese chief of police in the habit of 
talking to the administrative personnel in such a fashion? 

Mr. Empie. He never talked to me that way; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any other instances when the 
Japanese chief of police talked to the dispatcher in such manner? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge; sir. I can't say because I don't 
know exactly. 

Mr. Steedman. You say you recall this incident. Did you take 
any action against the Japanese chief of police? 

Mr. Empie. In this way: That I wondered from time to time 
whether he should be the chief of police or not and 1 had several dis- 
cussions with Mr. Head about it to try to find out why he thought he 
was the man for the job. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the name of the Japanese chief of police? 

Mr. Empie. Shigakawa. 

Mr. Steedman. Is Shigakawa still chief of police? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliere is he now? 

Mr. Empie. He is out. 

Mr. Steedman. Why isn't he the present chief of police? 

Mr. Empie. In a reorganization of the police department in unit 1, 
he was — I can't say whether he was dismissed or not. That is not my 
department, but I understand he is working at some other work now. 

Mr. Steedman. W^as he an Issei? 

Air. Empie. I don't believe so. 

Air. Steedman. But on this occasion no direct disciplinary action 
was taken against the chief of police for talking to one of the white 
administrative employees in the manner I have described? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. 

Air. Steedman. It was your information that the chief of police 
made this statement to the Caucasian dispatcher, is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. I am not sure whether he was supposed to have made 
this statement to the dispatcher or to Air. Townsend. 

Air. Steedman. Air. Townsend reported to you iil the memorandum 
that I read, that he had made the statement to the dispatcher. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTrVITIES 8945 

Mr. Empie. I am sorry. 

\Ir. Steedman. Would you accept his account of what happened? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I think I would. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the project lease trucks from the Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many have you leased? 

Mr. Empie. I think we have leased 15 so far; 2 of them have been 
released heaving 13 now on the project. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have or did you have any trucks leased 
from the Japanese at the time of the strike? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Steedman. Approximately how many? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I would say approximately 10. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you have trouble controlling the Japanese 
leased trucks during the strike? 

Mr. Empie. Well, until we had the police department bring every 
Jrwck in including the leased equipment, we did; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you later cancel the leases of Japanese equip- 
ment due to the trouble that you had with them? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; the trucks were put back in operation after 
they were returned to the pool and there was no disturbance about it 
at all. 

Mr. Steedman. What is the average monthly rental of the Japanese 
trucks? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I would say approximately the average would be 
$125 a month. We had one truck that we paid $175 a month for. 
The lowest rental was, I believe, $75 for a three-quarter ton pick-up, 
and I would like to say too, that these contracts were not signed until 
the rates and the terms of the contracts were inspected and approved 
by the Office of Price Administration as to price and terms. 

Mr. Mundt. Does that rate include the services of the Japanese 
driver? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; that is in addition. 

Mr. Mundt. Sometimes a different man drives a truck from the 
fellow who owns the truck? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ^Iundt. And he gets about $19 a month for driving the truck? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; they got $16 — some of them get $16 and 
some $19. 

Mr. Mundt. Never over $19? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In some of the lease agreements it has been stipu- 
lated by the Japanese owners that they shall be the drivers of their 
truck? 

Mr. Empie. The plan was to have the evacuee who owned the 
truck, or some person whom he could trust, to take good care of it 
during its service with the Government, would drive the truck. 

We explained to them that in case that didn't work out that they 
would have to expect the trucks to be driven by the Caucasian person- 
nel, the same as any other truck on the property. In other words that 
the Government was going to lease the trucks for project business and 
they would be used only for project business by anybody whom we 
might put on it. 



8946 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. But a contract or agreement was signed to that 
effect with some of them; that is right? 

Mr. Empie. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. That they would drive their own truck? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; with that provision in case anything didn't wbrii 
out just Uke it should that we would take control of the truck and use it. 

Mr. Steedman. At night are these trucks that the Japanese have 
leased to the Government and the trucks that they drive, housed in 
the pool? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; they are brought into the pool, 

Mr. Steedman. All trucks go into the pool every night? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who conceived the pooling arrangement at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. The pool arrangement at Poston was originally a part 
of the W. R. A. over-all plan for each project. They provided in then* 
organization a motor pool supervisor, and the term ''pooling of motor 
equipment" was a W. R. A. term. ^ 

The first attempt to pool automotive equipment was made by our 
first supply and transportation officer, Mr. Roy Potter. And I might 
say there that we weren't altogether successful in establishing a pool. 

The division head felt that they should have the equipment at their 
disposal without going through a pool operator. But it is working out 
better now and gradually getting it in operation as it should be. 

Mr. MuNDT. What is the average salary of the division heads? 

Mr. Empie. Of a division head? 

Mr. Mundt. Yes. 

Mr. Empie. Iwould say $3,800. 

Mr. Mundt. They seem to be a sort of independent class. 

Mr. Empie. Sir? 

Mr. Mundt. I say they seem to be sort of an independent class. 
You have difficulty with them quite often in getting them to carry out 
your camp regulations? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; well, it is because they have a program to do 
and they are intent on accomplishing it and they want all the facilities 
they can get to get the job done. 

Mr. Mundt. They are mostly ex-Indian Service employees? 

Mr. Empie. The greater percentage; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. We were discussing the speeding of Government 
automobiles at Poston, and particularly with reference to the Japanese 
who was driving a Government truck between Poston and Parker at 
55 miles per hour? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And I beheve you stated that there wasn't very 
much speeding there; is that right? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I did say that. 

Mr. Steedman. I will hand you a memorandum written on the 
stationery of the United States Department of the Interior, Office of 
Indian Affairs, field service, Colorado River War Relocation project, 
Poston, Ai-iz., dated August 28, 1942, and addressed to Roy Potter, 
supply and transportation officer, from A. W. Empie, chief adminis- 
trative officer, and purportedly signed by you as chief administrative 
officer, "Copy to Mr. Head." 

Is this your memorandum? [Handing document to the witness.] 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTlVITLEiS 8947 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir; I can tell by the signature it is without 
rcadiuo; it. 

'Mr. Steedman. This is your signature? 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Air. Steedman. Air. Chairman, I would like to introduce this 
memorandum into the record or read it. 

Air. CosTELLO. W itliout objection you may read it into the record. 

Air. Steedman (reading): 

Reference is made to memorandum dated August 19 from George R. Doughtery, 
captain, military police headquarters, 323 military police escort, relative to speed- 
ing by Japanese driver of truck No. 72059, going between 70 and 75 miles per 
hour from Camp 2 to Camp 3. 

I am wondering what steps you have taken to penalize persons who have been 
caught speeding or traveling in excess of the 40-mile rate which you established 
in instructions issued to drivers of all motor vehicles. 

As a suggestion I would like to recommend the establishment of a position 
to be filled by a person qualified to patrol access highways and highways within 
the project area who would be deputized and authorized to arrest anyone found 
breaking the speed limit. Such an officer could be equipped with a motorcycle 
or a suitable automobile for the purpose of patroling the highways. 

Something must be done to stop the abuse of motor equipment. I have 
observed from time to time, in fact almost every day, cars and trucks being driven 
in excess of 40 miles per hour. 

I believe a speed limit on trucks should be less than 40 miles an hour — probably 
not to exceed 30 at the most. 

Please give me your reaction to this matter and what your plan includes. 

A. W. Empie, 
Administrative Officer. 

Air. Empie. Alight 1 make a statement there. Air. Steedman? 

Air. Steedman. Yes. 

Air. Empie. For the benefit of the record, I would like to say that 
in reviewing what has taken place at Poston during the past year, 
and Air. Steedman's question as to whether evacuees had driven 
automotive equipment at excessive speeds, the thought immediately 
came into my mind that he had reference to driving between Poston 
and Parker. 

I don't say that I would have recalled this particular instance 
because 1 don't know w^hether I would or not if he had said, "within 
the camp area or between the three camps," but I do know that we 
had trouble at that time with those conditions as that indicates. 

Air. Steedman. Are you having the same kind of trouble now? 

Air. Empie. Very little. That has been curtailed and I would ssy 
as 1 said before, that it is down to a minimum. 

Air. Steedman. Are the military police controlling traffic between 
the various camps now? 

Air. Empie. No, sir. 

Air. Steedman. Do they control the traffic between Parker and 
Poston? 

Air. P^MPiE. No, sir. 

Air. Steedman. Who does? 

Air. Empie. Our own personnel. 

Air. Steedman. What power do they have to control it? 

Mr. Empie. Reporting it to the supply and transportation office, 
and to me, to decide what disciplinary action shall be taken in case 
of excess speed. 

Air. Steedman. What authority do you have to mete out dis- 
ciplinary action? 



8948 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Empie. The administrative determination that a man is guilty 
of the offense and a determination as to what the best thing is to do in 
the interests of the Government, whether to lay him off, overlook the 
fine work that he does for the Government in accomplishing his duties, 
or whether he should be summaril}^ dismissed and penalized in that" 
manner. 

Mr. Steedman. All he has to lose is $19 a month; isn't that right? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; that is right. 1 was thinking primarily of the 
white personnel when I said "disciplinary action." 

Mr. Steedman. You were referring then to the white personnel? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; but the same thing, of source, would be true with 
the evacuees; and you are right, he would only lose $19 a month so you 
don't really — I don't have very much leverage on him. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know Eddie Yamamoto? 

Mr. Empie. I believe I do. 

Mr. Steedman. Is he an expressman there at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Not now, no; he was. 

Mr. Steedman. Has he been transferred from Poston to another 
relocation center? 

Mr. Empie. I couldn't tell you; I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall any trouble which Eddie Yamamoto 
had last November with Mrs. Edwards at the Caucasian mess hall 
at the Parker Indian Agency? 

Mr. Empie. No; I don't. "^ 

Mr. CosiELLO. Might I interrupt for just a moment. I have an 
appointment and I am going to ask Air. Eberharter to take the chair. 

(Thereupon, Congressman Eberharter was the acting chairman 
during the balance of the morning session.) 

Mr. Steedman. You don't recall Eddie Yamamoto having trouble 
with Mrs. Edwards at the Indian agency in Parker? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I do not recall it. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall that Eddie Yamamoto, who was 
under suspicion at that time by the project, leaving the project in an 
unauthorized manner, with six other Japanese, and going to the 
Indian agency and forcing Mrs. Edwards to feed them? 

Mr. Empie. Now, since you speak of the six others it seems to me 
that Mr. Townsend told me about it one time, but I don't remember 
any of the details. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you take any action against Eddie Yamamoto 
after this matter w^as reported to you? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I thought nothing of it — I mean as far as dis- 
ciplinary action against him. I thought that would be up to the 
project director and it never occurred to me that I should. In other 
words 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record 
at this point a memorandum dated November 9, 1942, and addressed 
to Mr. A. W. Empie, and signed by H. H. Townsend, a copy of which 
was sent to Mr. Gelvin, Mr. Head, Mr. Evans, and Mr. Kennedy. 

This document was furnished to me by Mr. Townsend and I would 
like to read it into the record for the purpose of refreshing Mr. Empie's 
recollection on this matter. 

Mr. Eberharter. Without objection, that may be done. 

Do you have any objection to it being read into the r,ecord, Mr. 
Empie? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8949 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I haven't any objection. 

Mr. Steedman. I am reading from the memorandum dated Novem- 
ber 9, 1942: 

I would like to make a report on an irregularity that I discovered in the city 
of Parker on the Tth, created by and through Eddie Yamamoto, our express 
representative. 

While engaged in a hearing with the gasoline and tire rationing board in the 
theater building in Parker, I observed truck No. 12 carrying a group of evacuees 
idling in front of the theater. 

On completion of the meeting I interviewed these men and found that they had 
come into the city of Parker with Eddie Yamamoto under his express pass which 
provides for himself and express crew. None of these men, however, were em- 
ployed with or had been engaged in the express department, and had merely come 
to the city of Parker on a shopping tour and other matters which indicated to me 
that they had planned to go into the theater when it opened. 

They had been in the hardware store making purchases, and the woman there 
advised me that she felt under the circumstances compelled to wait on them as 
they were operating a commercial institution, but the behavior of the men would 
have indicated that they were rather out of line and in a sense created a little 
disorderly activity in the store. 

When I was advised by these men that P^ddie Yamamoto had gone to the 
expriess office and to the Western Truck Lines office, in going there both offices 
said that they had not heard of him during the day. I waited at the truck until 
he returned, and he advised me that he had brought a box of bread to the Caucasian 
mess hall at the Parker Indian Agency. 

I checked with the mess hall to determine whether this was an accurate state- 
ment, and in talking with Mrs. Edwards, the checker there_, she informed me that 
they had intimidated her by demanding that they be given their lunch there, 
and in a very nervous state of mind she took their names and did not know what 
else to do but to let them eat at the dining room with the other Caucasians 
without any pay for their meal. She said that she feared from their actions 
that there might be fight in the dining room, and as there were only two men 
present, one being a cripple, she thought she had done the right thing in feeding 
them. She states that they told her they had been stranded on a broken down 
bread wagon and had no other means of getting their lunch. This happened 
at 12 o'clock. 

In checking with the truck dispatcher's office, they stated that Eddie Yamamoto 
had requested a truck for express purposes, and as the regular express trucks 
were in use, they assigned him truck No. 12 to take care of this work. This, of 
course, was a subterfuge as Eddie Yamamoto was on a suspended basis for a 
period of 1 week pending a hearing whether his resignation should be accepted. 

This hearing has been prepared by Mr. Kennedy under the late employment 
regulations. However, his resignation had been accepted by Mr. Evans and set 
aside by myself subject to the employment procedure. After the above infrac- 
tions of our regulations, I accepted the resignation of Eddie Yamamoto and at 
this time am. arranging with Mr. Kennedy for the selection of a new manager 
of our express work. Therefore, I wish that you would cooperate in refusing 
any further permits or passes to Eddie Yamamoto. 

Mr. Steedman. Do yon recall the instance now? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Steedman. But you made no investigation of Eddie Yama- 
moto's conduct over at the Indian agency in Parker or why he was 
away from the camp? 

Mr. Empie. I discussed that with Mr. Head and asked him if he 
had received this memorandum and asked him to cooperate with our 
department in restraining the issuance of permits to leave the project 
for Parker. 

That is trouble that we have had there for sometime and something 
that I always thought should be controlled — the movement of the 
evacuees from Poston to Parker, because we are in wartime, and I 
don't think they had any business up there. I thought they ought to 
stay where the project was made for them and avoid creating any 



8950 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

dissension between the white residents of Parker and the people at 
Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the white residents of Parker object to the 
Japanese going to Parker? 

Mr. Empie. By and large I think that is right; yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were any corrective measures taken as a result of 
this memorandum submitted to you by Mr. Townsend, in your subse- 
quent conferences with Mr. Head? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. No corrective measures were taken at all? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, 

Mr. Steedman. Didn't Mr. Townsend incur the enemity of the 
Japanese by reporting such instances as the one which I have just read? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know whether you could say it was 
through that. It might be said that that was a contributing factor. 
I am not able to say. I don't know what they were thinking about 
him, but I could see where the}^ would feel that way about him. 

Mr. MuNDT. That would be a natural reaction, wouldn't it? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; it would. 

Mr. Eberharter. Did the six men who accompanied Yamamoto 
to Parker have passes? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know, sir; not being familiar with the issuance 
of the passes to the. evacuees. I never had anything to do with it and 
I just couldn't say about that. 

Mr. Eberharter. I think it would be important to know whether 
or not they were a. w. o. 1. — the six men who were on this express 
truck. You would consider that important, wouldn't you, Mr. 
Empie? 

Mr. Empie. I considered it so; yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Who has charge of those passes? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. Head. 

Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Head directly? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Has there been any trouble between the soldiers 
who are stationed close to Parker and the evacuees? 

Mr. Empie. Do you mean the military police escort near by the 
camp? 

Mr. Steedman. No. I am referring to th3 United States Army 
soldiers who go into Parker, and the evacuees who have gone into 
Parker shopping or to go to the theater? 

Mr. Empie. I don t know whether there was any occurrence or not. 
There might have been one instance. I will tell you tliis much about 
it, that Mr. Townsend often reported to me and tried to impress upon 
the administration, I will say, including Mr. Head, the importance of 
keeping the evacuees out of Parker on account, as he pointed out many 
times, of the soldiers being in town. He thought there might be some 
incident come up there that would lead into trouble and he did stress 
that. 

Mr. Mundt. You thought those recommendations were sound and 
well advised? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I do. I felt that way myself. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman I would like to I'ead into the 
record a memorandum which was furnished me by Mr. Townsend, 
dated November 7, 1942, which was addressed to Mr. Wade Head, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8951 

from Mr. H. H. Townsend, supply and transportation officer, a copy 
havins; been sent to Captain Dougherty of the 323 mihtary pohce. 

Mr. Eherhaktp:r. Without objection it may be read into the record. 
Do yoii lu^ve any objection, Mr. Empie? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

This is to inform you that six of the afternoon crew of the Parker warehouse left 
the warehouse area between the hours of 6 and 8 o'clock, drove to Parker, parked 
their truck in the area across from the business houses, and were kept in the truck 
by the soldiers who stood in the road and threw rocks at them. 

They were not allowed to leave their truck as has been their habits previously. 

There was one man left at the warehouse for the escort to bring to Poston until 
the other members of this crew were picked up under these conditions. 

That is signed: H. H. Townsend, 

Supply and Transportation Officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall that instance? 

Mr. Empie. No, I don't. I am not saying it didn't happen because 
we had reports, similar reports from time to time. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know a Japanese named Shingto Yoshida? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; how do you pronoimce his last name? 

Mr. Steedman. Yoshida — Y-o-s-h-i-d-a. 

Mr. Empie. It seems to me that there was a Yoshida — it may be a 
different name. I can't get along with the Japanese names so well. 
It seems to me that there was a Yoshida who was confined in tfie jail 
during the strike. It might have been him but I don't know. I 
thought his name was Ucliida. I am not certain. 

Mr. Steedman. Uchida w^as the Japanese that was involved in 
one of the beatings? 

Mr. Empie. That is a different one then. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. That is my understanding. 

Mr. Steedman. I am referring to a Shingo Yoshida. You don't 
recall him? 

Mr, Empie. I don't know him. I wouldn't know him if I saw him. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record 
at this point a memorandum addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie, dated 
November 17. 1942, from Mr. H. H. Townsend, which was furnished 
me by Mr. Townsend. 

Mr. Eberharter. If there is no objection it may be read into the 
record. 

Mr. Empie. I have no objection. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

On November 11, 1942, one of our sanitation drivers under Mr. Connor, named 
Shingo Yoshida, was .not successful in receiving the truck or equipment he felt 
had been promised to him at the time he expected it, and he told Mr. Connor 
that he was a G. D. liar, that the whole outfit were damned liars and informed 
another of the drivers of the sanitation trucks that if he didn't quit, they would 
beat him up. 

Mr. Connor took Mr. Shingo Yoshida to the employment office and in the 
presence of the Japanese employment officer who was preparing a release, called 
Mr. Connor a G. D. liar and made such other statements as caused the employment 
officer to ask him to leave. 

This matter was reported to me by Mr. Connor and confirmed by others. 

That memorandum is signed, "H. H. Townsend, supply and trans- 
portation officer." 



8952 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIDS 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall this incident? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know Mr. Connor? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, I do. 

Mr. MuNDT. And who is he? 

Mr. Empie. There were two Mr. Connors there that Mr. Town- 
send got from Los Angeles — somewhere up here, some people that he 
'knew formerly. One of them was employed as one of the escorts to 
escort the trucks between Poston and Parker, and the other one, his 
father, he put in charge of the rubbish-disposal crew. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are both the Connors still with you? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Neither one of them? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did they quit when Townsend left? 

Mr. Empie. Soon after, yes. Mr. Townsend had people there 
that I gave him authority to employ on his O. K. We had success 
"after Mr. Townsend left in employing evacuees to do the work that 
we thought appointed personnel should do. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you advocated that Caucasian employees 
be replaced by Japanese employees at the Poston Center? 

Mr. Empie. I think I have at times; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You gave a statement to the Poston Chronicle to 
that effect; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. I don't remember whether I did or not. I probably 
did. Am I expected to remember all these things as they occurred 
back over the year? There has been a lot of things happen there, 
you know. 

Mr. Steedman. If you don't recall, you can say that you don't 

recall. 

Mr. Empie. Well, I don't recall, but it is a little bit misleading, I 
think, to put me on the spot lil^e that. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie, we have no disposition whatever to 
put you on the spot. We- are merely asking if you received these 
memoranda and when you seem to be in doubt, have asked permission 
to refresh your recollection by reading them to you. 

Mr. Eberharter. In that connection I might say to the witness 
that it will be up to the committee to determine whether or not 
these incidents are of such importance as you should or, should not 
remember them. You do not need to feel any embarrassment, but 
we would like for you to remember, of course, everything that you 
possibly can. 

Mr. Empie. All right, sir. I would like to say m that comiection 
that I have a complete record at the project office of all the memo- 
randums I wrote, and it is open to inspection, the same as any other 
Government, office is, and I hope it shows I was trying to do my best 
to carry out the duties and responsibilities assigned to me. 

Mr. Eberharter. If there is anything that you want the commit- 
tee to put into the record from your records, if you will just indicate 
it, we will determine whether or not it shall go in the record, and I 
think we wifi be very liberal in allowing you to put in anything you 
care to from the records in your office. You will have the opportunity 
of presenting everything you care to. 

Mr. Empie. Thank voii. 



Uk-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8953 

Mr. Steedman. I liand you page 3 of the Poston Chronicle, dated 
Sunday, Docenibor 13, 1942, and ask you if that is a copy of the 
paper tliat is published by the Japanese at Poston? 

(Handing document to the witness.) 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I think that is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am quoting from the Poston 
Chronicle, dated December 13, 1942, in regard to the question I have 
just asked Mr. Empie with reference to the replacing of Caucasian 
personnel by the Japanese. 

I quote: 

QUALIFIED EVACUEES MAY REPLACE CAUCASIAN PERSONNEL 

Mr. Empie told the block managers that he sees no reason why evacuees can- 
not replace Caucasians in positions where colonists are qualified. 

The managers cited examples where Caucasian personnel could be replaced, 
conducive to efficiency in operation of the project. They recommended qualified 
men for some of the positions which could be replaced by evacuees. 

Mr. Empie. Might I have an opportunity to explain in what 
manner that was? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes, go right ahead. 

Mr. Empie. In keeping with a W. R. A. policy, the policy of the 
Bureau of the Budget in allotting this money to us, we were under 
instructions to employ as many Japanese people m these positions as 
possible. 

We have been criticized many times by representatives of the In- 
dian Office, under whose direction we work directly, for having too 
many appointed personnel on the pay roll, and they have thought 
that we should be able to staff more of our positions with the Japanese 
people. 

It has been very difficult for me to draw a line of demarcation be- 
tween whether a particular position should be filled by an evacuee or 
a white person. You have to determine that as you go along, but 
where we can find qualified evacuees, we reduce the expenditures of 
the Government when we put him in charge of the work rather than 
employ some white person at high salary. 

So. naturally, it is our aim to do that in keeping with our budget 
requirements. There have been instances where I felt that for suc- 
cessful and economic operation of the project the position should be 
staffed by an appointed personnel Or employee, because of his general 
knowledge that maybe the evacuee didn't have of that particular 
line of work; but that was the aim, to employ as many evacuees in 
these positions as possible. 

Mr. Eberharter. Would you care to tell us how much progress 
you have made in the replacement of Caucasian personnel by the 
Japanese? Has that been accelerated in the last month or two? 

Mr. Empie. No, it has not. It has more or less stabilized. A few 
positions, I would say, probably, 15 or 20 positions altogether during 
the course of operating the project — during the year — have been 
filled by evacuees. 

Mr. MuNDT. I think you said those suggestions came from the 
Indian administration. Did you misspeak yourself? Did they 
come from the W. R. A.? 

. Mr. Empie. It is the basic policy of the W. R. A. and Bureau of 
the Budget and, naturally, has to be a basic policy of the Indian 
Service. 



8954 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. Just how far into the detail of the administcatiori of 
the Center does the Indian Office reach? 

Mr. Empie. The Indian Office is our immediate central office. We 
are all Indian Service employees and we deal through the Indian 
Service central office for all our money and our regulations as to the 
operation of all of our project features — that is, including accounting 
system, procurement procedure, and all of those things. 

Mr, MuNDT. Who approves the menus? The Indian Office or the 
W.R. A.? 

Mr. Empie. No, the W. R. A. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is there any evidence of confusion as a result of this 
divided responsibility between W. R. A. and the Indian Office? 

Mr. Empie. I think so; yes, sir. The way I ha.ve tried to operate 
it in my particular office is to, since I was charged with the responsi- 
bility of getting things done in a hurry, which, by the way, L have 
attempted to do, in accordance — strictly in accordance — with the 
Government regulations governing appointment, procurement, and 
accounting procedure, was to take advantage msofar as possible of 
the sources of supply that W. R. A. had to offer as well as the Indian 
Service, to get the over-all job completed as quickly as possible. 

Mr. MuNDT. Don't you think that you could operate a little better 
if you had just one boss in Washington, regardless of whether it was 
the Indian Office or the W. R. A.? That would be immaterial, but 
wouldn't it be better if there was a focusing of authority in one office? 

Mr. Empie. No question about it. I have felt it more keenly than 
in any other office on account of all the Budget work being handled in 
my office. 

Mr. MuNDT. It would be easier for you to know that you are doing 
the thing Washington wanted if you had just one set of employers, 
wouldn't it? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Eberharter. If this is a good place to stop, I think we may 
as well take our luncheon recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of the 
same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(Thereupon, at 2 p. m., the committee reconvened, pursuant to the 
noon recess.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will please be in order, and you will 
proceed with the questioning, Mr. Steedman. 

TESTIMONY OF AUGUSTUS W. EMPIE— Resumed 

Mr. Steedman. When the conunittee recessed for lunch, we were 
discussing the possibility of the Japanese stealing gasoline from 
Government automobiles. Have you investigated that possibility? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any instances where the Japanese 
were stealing gasoline from Government-owned automobiles? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please cite to the committee any instances " 
of that sort? 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITLEiS 8955 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. Mr. Townsend reported to me that an auto- 
mobile operated by the Community Enterprise Division of the proj- 
ect — one of the evacuees was seen taking gasohne from one of the 
Government-owned cars and putting it into a 5-gaUon bottle. 

He, Mr. Townsend, and the fire-protection officer, Mr. Joe Fein, 
followed the evacuees to their barracks and took possession of the 
gasoline. He reported that to me in person; whereupon I brought this 
to the attention of the Chief of Agriculture and Industry Division, 
Mr. H. A. Mathieson, and also to Mr. R. G. Fister, who is in immediate 
charge of the Community Enterprise Division. 

I also discussed this later with Mr. Gelvin and brought to his atten- 
tion at that time that this was one of the frequent incidents that were 
coming to our attention that we felt we should do something about. 
We needed more assistance from all the divisions to control the use 
of the equipment and the use of gasoline and so forth. 

After reporting it to Mr. Gelvin 1 considered my part of the work 
done. As to the net result as to what was accomplished, I don't know 
in that particular case whether they brought that up before the local 
police officers or not. 

I have often felt that there was plenty of opportunity for the 
evacuees to take gasoline if they wanted to, and if we had all the equip- 
ment in the pool there would be no opportunit}^ for them to do that. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made a check recently with reference to 
the Japanese stealing gasoline? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. I think it can be said that Mr. Haverland, 
the present supply and transportation officer, has been patrolling that 
very carefully and Mr. Barrett, his assistant, has been working with 
him. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have records of the amount of gasoline 
that has been stolen from project cars? 

Mr. Empie. Not the cars themselves, but we do have a record of 
tampering with the tanks where gasoline is dispensed. We kept a 
very careful check on daily gallonage taken out of those pumps to be 
sure we would get down to the source of it. 

Mr. Steedman. How much gasoline has been taken out of the 
pumps? 

Mr. Empie. It would be an estimate on my part. Ofthand I don't 
know. Probably 100 gallons in small quantities. 

Mr. Steedman. It has been taken only in small quantities? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Has any effort been made to apprehend the persons 
who were stealing gasoline? 

Mr. Empie. I think it can be said yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Who made the effort to apprehend them? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. Haverland and Mr. Barrett. 

Mr. Steedman. Has anybody been apprehended and brought before 
the camp officials as yet? 

Mr. Empie. Except in this way — not any particular person, no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman,. Do any of the Japanese at Boston have sugar 
ration books? 

Mr. Empie. I don't believe they do now. I think we collected aU 
those. 

Mr. Steedman. Did they at one time have sugar ration books? 

Mr. Emfie. It is my understanding at one time they did; yes. 



8956 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Did the camp authorities collect those? 

Mr. Empie. I didn't; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who did? 

Mr. Empie. I think the management did. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many Japanese had sugar-ration- 
ing books? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know who would have that information? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. L. L. Nelson, executive assistant to Mr. Head. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it your information that they were using the 
sugar-ration books and at the same time taking their meals at the 
camp cafeterias? 

Mr. Empie. Were the evacuees doing that? 

Mr. Steedman. That is right. 

Mr. Empie. I suppose that was true if they had them because they 
have always eaten at the project mess halls. 

Mr. Steedman. We have discussed here today a number of instances 
where Japanese have been guilty of irregularities afid you have stated 
that on a number of occasions no disciplinary action had been taken 
with regard to irregularities committed by Japanese. Why is that? 

Mr. Empie. Well, if you will permit me to say so, I believe the rec- 
ord will show that in many instances in the abuse of equipment, we 
have laid them off on that account. 

That is about the only disciplinary action we have — laying them 
off the job. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there a laxity in discipline at the center insofar 
as the Japanese are concerned? 

Mr. Empie. Well, if you want my personal opinion, I believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. You believe so? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I believe that with a little firiiier control, a 
little firmer and decisive action in directing it, that it would be a lot 
different. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is at fault? 

Mr. Empie. I think that is a matter for someone else to decide. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the social-welfare department enter into that 
picture? 

Mr. Empie. Insofar as delinquencies are concerned. 

Mr. Steedman. I am referring now to the lack of discipline at the 
center. 

Mr. Empie. Well, from my personal viewpoint, I believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think the activities of Dr. Powell and Miss 
Eindley interfere with the discipline at the center? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Steedman. In what ^yay? 

Mr. Empie. I have had occasion to believe that, while there were 
many things that the community services branch of our organization 
had charge of and needed to do to protect the welfare of the com- 
munity, that there were many things that persons in that branch 
advocated that didn't accrue to the benefit of the Government nor in 
the end to the benefit of the evacuees themselves. 

Mr. Steedman. For instance? 

Mr. Empie. It is difficult for me to cite just how or in what way 
that could culminate in that end result, but I think it can best be 
expressed by saying that they were in manj'^ instances, carrying the 
torch for the evacuees. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8957 

Mr. Steedman. That is the social-service department was carrying 
the torch for the ovacuees? 

Mr. P^BEKHAKTEK. What is that? 

Mr. Empie. Carrying the torch for the evacuees. I think, how- 
ever, it is very sincere on their part; a sincere feehng that as repre- 
sentatives of th.e Government, having been assigned the responsibility 
to help look after these people during this period of crisis, it is up to 
them to make the tenure as pleasant for them as possible and to as 
adequately as possible provide for them. 

They point out that these people were evacuated from their homes 
and the Government owes them the food, clothing, and shelter and as 
good treatment as they can possibly give them, and since they didn't 
have recreation facilities within the camp area, they felt perfectly 
free to use equipment to lake them on picnics. x\nd they have peti- 
tioned the project director to let them go to nearby towns and benefit 
from the opportunity to shop there. That is their side of their picture. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the head of the social service branch of the 
cent(U'? 

Mr. Empie. Until very recently Miss Nell Findley was the chief of 
the community services branch. 

Mr. Steedman. And what was her salary? 

Mr. Empie. $.5,600. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see her personnel papers when she came 
to work at Post on? 

Mr. Empie. No; I didn't. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever examined her personnel papers? 

Mr. Empie. No; I didn't. That appointment was made under the 
immediate direction of Mr. Collier himself, the Commissioner of 
Indian Affairs. 

Mr. Steedman. She was sent to the project at Poston from Wash- 
ington, was she not, as a special case? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; she came from Honolulu. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was Dr. Powell also picked by Mr. Collier? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know, Mr. Congressman, whether he was or 
not. I don't believe so. 

Mr. MuNDT. Dr. Powell has the educational responsibility and Miss 
Findley had the social responsibility, is that light? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; Dr. Powell was in immediate charge of what is 
called the welfare and recreation division. Dr. Miles Carey was the 
director of education. 

Mr. Steedman. Miss Findley was sort of a special case insofar as 
her personnel records were concerned, is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you have the personnel records of the other 
project employees in your office? 

Mr. Empie. I think the greater percentage of them; yes, sir.- 

Mr. MuNDT. Is Miss Findley still at the project? 

Mr. Empie. No, su-; she has gone back to Honolulu. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did she resign voluntarily? 

Air. Empie, Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Recently? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. How recently? 

Mr. Empie. Effective May 20, I beheve. 

62G26— 4.3 — vol. 15 9 



8958 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. Last May? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. In line with our discussion this morning about this 
dual responsibility between the W. R. A. and the Indian Office, was 
Miss Findley primarily responsible to the Indian Office in her ac- 
tivities? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; well, pardon me, through the project director. 

Mr. MuNDT. She was carrying out the policies of the Indian Office. 
Would it be a fair statement to say that her policies were primarily 
the policies of the Indian Office rather than the policies of the W. R. A.? 

Mr. Empie. It can be said that the policy which she attempted to 
carry out was in strict conformity with the policies of the Indian 
Office. 

Mr. MuNDT. And what would happen if her policies ran into con- 
flict, as they apparently did, with some of the policies of the W. R. A.? 
"Whose policies would predominate? 

Mr. Empie. Those of the Indian Office. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are you familiar with any of the other relocation 
camps other than the one at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Not so very familiar. I visited the Gila project one 
time but aside from that all I have is second-hand knowledge. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do they have social-welfare workers at .the other 
camp also? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. In all other camps the social-welfare workers are 
under the direction of the W. R. A.? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. But this is an exception at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Well, that is true in the operation of the whole project; 
yes. sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Miss Findley consider herself as being under 
the administrative jurisdiction of Mr. Head? 

Mr. Empie. Absolutely. 

Mr. wSteedman. Do you know of any occasions when Miss Findley 
overruled instructions issued by Mr. Head? 

Mr. Empie. I know at various times when she disagreed with his 
policy. How they worked it out together, I am not aware. 

Mr. Steedman. But her ideas prevailed, did they not? 

Mr. Empie. I wouldn't say altogether; no, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was Mr. Head selected by Mr. Collier also? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Would you be sufficiently familiar with the operation 
of the other camps to be able to. define the manner in which the 
social-welfare work at your camp deviates from the work being con- 
ducted at the other camps? 

Mr. Empie. It would be an opinion based on just my feeling about it. 

Mr. MuNDT. If you care to I would be happy to have you express 
your opinion. 

Mr. Empie. I believe it was operated much in the same manner as 
we have operated ours — along the same genei-al over-all policy, since 
we are following the administrative instructions that are supposed to 
be followed at all other camps. 

Mr. MuNDT. In other words, do you think the social-welfare 
workers in all these camps carry the torch for the evacuees to the 
extent that, apparently, Miss Findley at Poston did? 



tnsr-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8959 

Mr. Empie. Well, I wouldn't be able to say on that. I don't know. 
I have never had any information to that effect. 

Mr. MuNDT. Has anybody replaced Miss Findley in the camp at 
Poston since she resigned? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. To my understanding the plan is not to fill 
that position but have Dr. Powell look after the whole thing. 

Mr. MuxDT. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. Was Miss Findley allowed to resign? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Were her services satisfactory? 

Mr. Empie. As far as I loiow. I have no reason to believe other- 
wise, so far as the general over-all requirements of the Director were 
concerned. 

Mr. Steedm.\n. Mr. Townsend had a little difficulty with Miss 
Findley, did he not? 

;Mr. Empie. I think he did; yes. He told me that he had at one 
time about the use of some equipment that she thought should be 
used to take the evacuees on an outing, but he didn't agree with her. 

Mr. Mundt. By the way, going back to Tow^nsend again: After 
you discovered that he had apparently n\isused Government property 
and filing a false claim for expenses because he had gone to Oldahoma 
City instoad of somewhere else, were any steps taken to take legal 
action against Air. Townsend for that violation of the Federal law? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. Wliat is the status of the case now? 

Mr. Empie. I reported it first to a representative of the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation and he advised me to discuss it with the 
United States attorney for Ai"izona, which I did. 

After discussing the matter at considerable length with him, he told 
me that inasmuch as I couldn't prove the nature of the files that Mr. 
Townsend had taken from our office and the fact that only recently 
Congi'ess had attempted to pass a law making it a misdemeanor to 
use Government equipment on personal business, that he didn't 
think he could convict him and he told me to proceed on the basis that 
it was an administrative matter. And I am still trying to do that. 

That is the present status. I might add there that due to the press 
of business I have yet to inform Mr. Townsend of what the records 
indicate and why some of these vouchers can't be paid, and due to the 
fact that he turned in these tickets charged back that he turned in — • 
these tickets charged against our account and the Government has 
paid for that, that he is considered, from an accountable officer's 
standpoint, a certifying officer's standpoint, to be in arrears to the 
United States, and until that account is offset, it will be impossible 
for him to get money which he can now consider due him. 

That is made up of two salary checks and the amount of several 
travel vouchers that are being held. 

Mr. SteeDxMan. As a matter of fact haven't all the employees who 
had any difficulty with Miss Findley at Poston, been subsequently 
dismissed from their positions? 
; Mr. Empie. I can't say that that is true. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any other instance where an 
employee, who had trouble with Miss Findley, was later dismissed 
from his position? 

Mr. Empie. I might know it but I don't recall offhand. 



8960 UNrAMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read a memorandum 
into the record, dated December 10, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W. 
Empie. This memorandum was furnished me by Mr. Townsend. 

Air. CosTELLO. Is there any objection to that, Mr. Empie? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It is so ordered. 

Mr. Steedman. I am quoting: 

For the sake of the record, a resuir6 of facts covering Miss Findley's request 
for additional car for two evacuees to go to Kingman. On December 8, 1942, 
at 4:15 p. m. a representative of Miss Findley's office called and stated that Miss 
Findley wanted a car to take two evacuees to Kingman. 

Mr. Steedman. How far is Kingman from Poston? 

Mr. Empie. I believe it is about 110 miles, I am not sure. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

I advised him that two trucks had left during the early morning with 15 
evacuees and their baggage and asked why they had not been included m this 
shipment. 

The facts covering that trip were that Miss Findley had r(?quested from me the 
previous day to arrange to have two trucks available at 5:30 a. m. on December 
8 to move 15 evacuees and their baggage to Kingman, Ariz. I was compelled 
to take Mr. Mosley and Mr. Collins, two of our night dispatchers, from their 
positions to drive these trucks. These men collected the baggage and left here 
in the early morning hours for this assignment. 

I told the representative that I felt that it would be impossible to secure addi- 
tional transportation or a driver and that I would be unable to authorize the 
additional trip without some authority, as I felt it was a mistake to run addi- 
tional equipment on the same mission so few hours between. He left the office 
and in a few minutes Miss Findley returned somewhat perturbed over being 
opposed on the issue. She stated that it was our duty to move the^ evacuees 
regardless of how or where or when or under what circumstances and I advised 
her that the trip would cost us probably $50, and she stated that it didn't make 
any difference if it cost twice as much. 

i asked her why these people weren't included in the trip and she stated that 
their permits had not arrived. 1 stated that I felt that the others should have been 
held a few hours until the permits had arrived. 

She said she would take the matter up with Mr. Head and 1 said it was per- 
fectly all right and stated that it would be necessary to receive authorization from 
Mr. Head or yourself before I would feel at liberty to send another car diie to the 
shortage of gasoline and the attempt to save rubber. 

She left the office to go to Mr. Head's office and I left to give you the information 
regarding the matter. When 1 went in your office Miss Findley was there and I 
told her that I was glad she was there as it was a matter that you should decide 
upon. 

She made the statement that she would go to Mr. Head and tell him that I 
refused to obey his orders. I stated that that was not the truth, that I had not 
refused to obey his orders, tliat I did not feel under the circumstances that any 
of us were justified in view of the shortage of gasoline to take trips of this nature 
without using every precaution and I didn't believe that the administration would 
feel otherwise. 

I also stated that it was only a matter of time until our allotment of gasoline 
was consumed and that most of us would have to walk and whereas at this time 
we had plenty, most of us felt that it wasn't necessary to use any care or discretion 
in how it was used. 

She parted by saying that she expected to get the authorization to leave and I 
said that I was sure that she would and that I was glad to be relieved of the 
responsibility of the seemingly unnecessary additional trip when they should have 
all gone together. 

That is signed: "H. H. Townsend, Supply and Transportation 
Officer." 

Mr. Steedman. Did Miss Findley get the authorization for the 
evacuees to make the trip from Poston to Kingman? 

Mr. Empie. She got that from Mr. Head. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8961 

Mr. Steedman. But she did not G:ot it from you? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. I felt the same way Mr. Townsend did at out it. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the wareiiouses at Poston come under your 
jurisdiction? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charg-e of the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. E. S. Wickersham, under the supervision of the 
Supply and Transportation Officer. 

^fr. Steedman. Have articles been removed from the warehouses in 
an improper manner by the Japanese and the Caucasian employees? 

Air. Empie. Our records show that in dollar value not to exceed, 
approximately, $200 in goods have been removed without requisition 
from the warehouses. 

We have a record of that which is on file and which is to be disposed 
of in accordance with our property regidations. 

Mr. Steed^ian. You are referrmg to individual cases of $200 worth 
of materials missing? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; all told. 

Mr. Steedman. You have had a total of $200 worth of missing 
materials? 

Mr. Empie. Except for lumber. We have had a lot of lumber 
taken down there. That is a part of our warehouse stock. I will 
say that everybody has tried to control that in some manner or 
another. This amount that I speak of is aside from the lumber. 

Mr. MuNDT. What do you estimate would be the dollar value of 
lumber which has been stolen? 

Mr. Empie. Approximately $15,000 on the basis of $50 a thousand — ■ 
300,000 board feet. And I would like to bring out at this point for 
the record, that the conception of the evacuees about taking this 
lumber is that inasmuch as the Government didn't furnish the barracks 
with anything at all in the way of furniture, that they have a perfect 
right to go and get this lumber and use it to build shelves and cup- 
boards and chairs and tables and things of that kind, and that is what 
it has all been used for, so far as I know. 

Mr. MuNDT. That was all stolen by the Japanese and not by the 
whites? 

Mr. Empie. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you think perhaps. Miss Findley may have sup- 
ported this conception on the part of the Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. You tliink she did? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir, because she always maintained that as long as 
the}^ didn't remove it from the project, they weren't stealing it. I 
disagreed with her openly and before. 

]\Ir. MuNDT. There might be an extenuating situation there from 
the standpoint of the Japanese since they were getting that kind of 
advice from one of the project employees — white employees. 

Mr. Empie. I think so, yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. I quite agree with you if somebody on the project was 
winking at it and even encouraging it that there should not be too 
much blame held against the Japanese for doing that. 

Mr. Empie. That is the way I felt about it. 

Mr. MuNDT. And I am also sort of glad that Miss Findley has gone 
back to Honolulu. 



8962 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did Miss Findley leave the project voluntarily or 
was she dismissed? 

Mr. Empie. She left voluntarily. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Miss Findley leave the project after this 
investigation started? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know when it started, Mr. Steedman. 
She left about the 15th of May. Now, you would know what the 
dates are — I don't. I can check that date for you if you would like 
to have it. 

Mr. Steedman. I wish you would. 

Mr. MuNDT. May I ask whether any of the other white personnel 
supported this position of the Japanese, that since the lumber was 
there and they needed it to furnish their houses, they were entitled 
to steal it? 

Mr. Empie. That is putting it pretty bluntly but I think there 
were others, yes, that felt that way about it. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was Dr. Powell among those? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was Mr. Head among those? 

Mr. Empie. I have never heard him express himself on that. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you hear him condemn the practice or didn't 
you hear him express himself either way? 

Mr. Empie. I can't say that I have heard him condemn the prac- 
tice, no, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. No effort was made to punish the Japanese, was there? 
I mean you would not have any difficulty finding out who did take 
the lumber because there would be a new shelf or a new table and so 
it wouldn't be very hard even for an inexperienced investigator to find 
out who did it, but no attempt was made to punish them? 

Mr. Empie. They have been seen carrying the lumber. 

Mr. MuNDT. And no attempt was made to stop them? 

Mr. Empie. By various people who had brought the lumber for 
other purposes and was trying to preserve it for those purposes. 

Mr. MuNDT. And there has been no punishment of any kind? 

Mr. Empie. No. 

Mr. MuNDT. And no deductions from the wages of those who 
worked? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Or curtailed rations? 

.Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Or a day in the camp jail or anything of that kind? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In what manner are the records of the warehouses 
kept? 

Mr. Empie. The first warehouse records begin with the preparation 
of a receiving document and they are numbered consecutively from 
the inception of the project to date. 

From these receiving documents stores record cards are posted and 
show the quantities and the totals received — of the total quantity 
received and the dollar value. 

The receiving document then goes into the unpaid bill file awaiting 
the submission by the vendor of his invoice and execution of the 
voucher in payment thereof. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8963 

Material and supplies issued from the warehouse are issued on the 
basis of approveil retjuisitions, initiated by the p(>rson responsible in 
the division desiring; the materials for his use, approved by the division 
head or someone whom the division head has authorized to sign for 
him, and presentation to the warehouse office for filling. 

Mr. Stkedman. Are Japanese employed in the warehouses? 

Mr. Kmpie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Caucasian employees are employed in 
the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. a total of seven. 

Mr. Steedman. White employees? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And how many Japanese employees are employed 
in the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. Including those engaged in the maintenance of sub- 
sistence warehouses, 73. 

Mr. Steedman. Are Japanese in charge of keeping the records in 
the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. Not in charge; no, sir. That is all supervised by white 
persons who direct the work of the evacuees. 

I might add there for your information, that in connection with the 
W. R. A. policy to use evacuees on all this work, we attempt to do 
that, and diametrically opposed to that policy is their policy to 
relocate the evacuees and, consec}uently, we find ourselves in a cross- 
fire trying to get the job done with people that we are supposed to use 
and still they are supposed to go out. We can't do both and it is a 
continual turn-over. It is a program which is really strenuous to 
say the least. 

Mr. Steedman. About the time j^ou get a man trained to do the 
work, he is then released to go out into the Middle West? 

Mr. Empie. That is right, yes. That has happened in many 
instances. 

Mr. Mundt. Don't the same officials at the camp who select these 
men for service in the camp, also pass upon who is to be evacuated 
and who is not? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, I don't believe it can be said that that is true 
entirely. The greater percentage of the evacuees have applied for 
indefinite leave. They don't know when they are going out. Many 
of th(>m have applied for indefinite leave so that when the right oppor- 
tunity comes they will be ready to go, but they don't know whether 
they want to go or not. They are watching the newspapers to see 
whether they are going out or not. 

Mr. Mundt. Do you have anything to do with determining when 
they leave the camp? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. Or who goes from the camp? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. You have nothing whatsoever to do with that? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. You have nothing to do with the leave-taking aspects 
of it? 

Mr. Empie. Absolutely nothing. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese take the inventories in the 
warehouses? 



8964 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. That is done — except to assist in it, that is ' 
all done under the direct supervision of the white personnel. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever called in any outsiders to take an 
inventory of the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. Such as public accountants, for instance? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. Have you called in any of the other project em- 
ployees who were not employed in the warehouses to inventory the 
warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, we have in some instances. We find ourselves 
in this position: At the end of the month we have such a volume of 
work to do we gather up various members of the organization, some 
representatives from the steward s office, and others, to go in and help 
take the inventory so that as of midnight on the 31st of the month 
we will be able to figure our quantities on hand. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I have a copy of a memorandum 
dated December 16, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie, from H. H. 
Townsend. This memorandum was furnished me by Mr. Townsend 
and I would like to read it into the record at this time. 

Mr. Costello. Are you familiar with this memorandum, Mr. 
Empie? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know; I suppose I am. 

Mr. Steedman. You have no objection to it, have you? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Costello. You may read it into the record at this point. 

Mr. Steedman. It has reference to the inventory being taken at 
the warehouses, and is as follows: 

Reference to the inventory being taken at the warehouse. For the sake of the 
record, I am anxious to make a definite protest against the plan, procedure, and 
conditions of this inventory. 

I am, of course, aware of the fact that you have a definite purpose in mind. 
However, it is not my idea to have anything to do whatsoever nor let the records 
show that 1 have been responsible for the present type of inventory. 

So that you will know my feelings in the matter, the present plan is more or 
less of tlie same nature of having a banker examine his own bank and report it 
to his superior, State, or Federal authorities. 

In the first place, an inventory cannot be accurately expected from employees 
•wnthin the warehouse where we know that more than $100 a day is being misappro- 
priated. It is natural that the warehouse management would like to have the 
records developed to comply with numerous flagrant errors that were created 
during the rush of the installation of the camp. 

It is now being generally discussed among the Japanese warehouse people that 
they will be able to cover up their records and in many instances they have already 
discussed the manner of hiding out various types of supplies and equipment so 
that they could not be compelled to show them on their inventory. 

If you are not familiar with the past procedure of handling the requisitions in 
many instances it has run as follows: The requisition appears to the warehouse 
for proper initialing. Then it is taken to the warehouse where the supplies are 
located and frequently, as has been shown to me, the re(}uest has been changed 
from a few items to a number of items to cover up other shortages. 

In many cases it has been proved that the requisition has been completely de- 
stroyed and not returned to the warehouse at all. 

This is not an unusual condition, due to the vast amount of business conducted 
under no definite business plan, but it is an unusual business condition to expect 
to get an accurate inventory from several hundred employees in charge of their 
stocks of goods. 

My recommendation, therefore, would be to have a business inventory taken 
by disinterested parties so that when a final accounting is made or a corps of 
Federal officers come into this camp to take an accurate inventory that this de- 
partment would be cleared of any of the final actions that will be taken. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8965 

t 

And that memorandum is signed: "H. H. Townsend, Supply and 
Transportation Officer." 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall this memorandum? 

]\[r. Empie. Yes; I do, and I would like to say that I am in complete 
agreement with !Mr. Townsend 's feelings about the matter, and that 
at a'number of conferences held in Washington, D. C, in 1940 between 
members of the General Accounting Office and various bureaus of the 
Department of the Interior, T advocated that this type of inventor)'- 
be provided for in the regulations under which we were operating 
at Poston. 

The resulting regulations, however, after the work of the committee 
appointed by the Secretary, finished its work, was to provide a system 
of taking inventories by the person who was responsible for the items. 

I have never agreed with it. I don't think it is sound accounting 
practices or principles, and if I were to prescribe a set of regulations 
to follow I would provide an inventory to be taken by disinterested 
officials. That is my firm conviction and the records of the Indian 
Service, I believe, will bear that out. 

Mr. Steedman. I w^ould like to ask you a question on that point. 
Mr. Townsend states in this memorandum, and I quote: 

In the first place an inventory cannot be accurately expected from employees 
within the warehouses where we know that more than a $100 a day is being 
misappropriated. 

Is that statement correct? 

Mr. Empie. I can's say that it is, no, sir. I don't believe that that 
is right to say that, and to support my point there I would like to 
say this, that I do know" in many instances where a head of a division 
or somebody under his direction will appear at the warehouse to get 
his requisition filled and get it approvecl by the chief warehouseman 
or one of his assistants, and go down to one of the warehouses and see 
things in stock. In the first place he has no business in the ware- 
house. He should present his requisition at the door and they should 
say: 

You can drive around to the gate and pick up your stuff on the truck. 

But the way we are set up there he goes into the warehouse with 
the fellow^ in charge of the warehouse and he is very apt to see things 
that he thinks he needs in addition to what has been approved, and 
will add those and, copies, of course, of the requisitions finally go 
back to the file and it is my firm conviction and it is my sincere belief 
all of the items shown on the requisitions — I wouldn't say all of them, 
but the greater percentage of the items shown on the requisitions, have 
been used for the purposes stated on the requisitions. 

Mr. Costello. But items have been taken out of the warehouses 
and used in the camp, items that went beyond the requisitions? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. I am in thorough accord,, too, with you about what 
would constitute wise warehousing and inventory procedure. You 
are in charge of the accounting in the warehousing division, but you 
have not set up the type of system in which you believe? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Wliy not? There must be some reason for that. 

Mr. Empie. Because I do not have the facilities to do it with nor 
the backing to do it. By "facilities" I mean personnel, adequate 



8966 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

personnel to man these organizations and keep them running on a 
business-hke basis. 

Mr. MuNDT. If you had the backing would you get the personnel? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know whether the Bureau of the Budget would 
consent to that or not. They are pretty tight on money. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is the lack of support emanating from the camp or 
from Washington? 

Mr. Empie. Both. 

Mr. MuNDT. Insofar as it does not come from Washington, does the 
failure lie with the W. R. A. or with the Indian Office to provide the 
proper background and support? Who is in charge of that aspect of 
it in Washington? 

Mr. Empie. May I answer it in this way? 

Mr. MuNDT. Any way you choose, just so I get the answer. 

Mr. Empie. The administrative supervisors — I will say it this way 
if you don't mind: The supervisors of the administrative services in 
the Indian ^Service, and I understand in many other services, are 
staffed with personnel who have grown up from an accountant's view- 
point. They know what it means to try to keep track of equipment 
and property; but when you go to the trouble to get all the detailed 
records in the right form, tliat is the only solid foundation upon which 
to build your final records, and I have always felt, as I do now, that 
until we get the officials of the Government who are actually saying to 
the supervisors of administrative services: "Do thus and so" and 
"Let us get this job done," until we can convince them that they have 
got to share some of the responsibility and give support to people 
that are trying to get these regulations complied with, we are just not 
getting anywhere. 

Now, that is an auditor's viewpoint. I served as an auditor in the 
Indian Service for many years. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is one of the results which might develop from 
this committee hearing. We might be in a position to help impress 
that on the program in Washington. 

Mr. Empie. I certainly would be glad if you would. 

Mr. MuMDT. I want to know wdiether we should approach the 
W. R. A. on that or the Indian Office? 

Mr. Empie. It is my opinion that you would find a fertile field in 
either place. 

A'Tr. MuNDT. W^e might try both; but which do you think we should 
concentrate on? 

Mr. Empie. Inasmuch as we are operating directly under the Indian 
Office, I will have to say the Indian Office. 

Mr. Costello. Mr. Empie, you would not have authority to 
change the procedure of inventory and so on at this camp? 

Mr. Empie. I would not be complying with the regulations that I 
have been told to comply with. 

Mr. Costello. You have to follow the directions that emanate 
from Washington? 

Mr. Empie'^. Yes'. 

Mr. Costello. Even though you know they are not adequate in 
dealing with and keeping a check on the contents of the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. Well, there is nothing to prevent me from reporting 
what I think about it, but they still will come back and say: "Do 
this or that or the other thing." 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8967 

Mr. MuNDT. Is it your focliuo; jrrowino; out of the oxporience you 
haw had now for a year or 18 months at the camp, that if the proper 
reguhitions were issued from Washington that, as far as the personnel 
is concerned, you coukl conduct an accurate inventory with the Jap- 
anese personnel doing the work? 

Mr. Empie. I beheve so, under the right supervision, yes, sir. We 
have many evacuees who are good accountants and if you handled 
them ])roperly they will do what 5^011 tell them. 

Mr. MuNDT. That would pretty w^ell take care of one of the diffi- 
culties which j^ou said was the difficulty with personnel? 

Mr. Empie. Certainly would. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is not an insurmountable obstacle. 

Mr. Empie. That would relieve my load 100 percent if we could 
get some action on that. 

Mr. MuNDT. And if you could save $15,000 in the course of a year, 
that would amply pay a man's salary to look after it. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether similar conditions exist in 
the other camps? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, I can't say, and it would be just a personal 
opinion. 

Mr. MuNDT. As an accountant with 18 years of credible service 
behind you in the Federal Government, would it be your guess, as 
long as they use the same accounting systems in other camps as they 
use in yours, which of course is true, that similar discrepancies would 
quite probably occur in the other camps. 

Mr. Empie. It is quite possible, yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. There is no reason to assume that the warcliouse 
officials and personnel are any the less ethical or honest in your camp 
than they would be some place else? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I don't want to brag, but I believe that is true. 

Mr. MuxDT. In other words, the difficulty is with the system? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. If the system doesn't work in Poston it isn't going 
to work in Tule Lake or some of these other places? 

Mr. Empie. I will put it this way: Unless W. R. A. has been 
more successful than we have in getting people to carry out the 
instructions, the same conditions exist there. Now, I don't know 
what exists there. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return to the reference made by 
Mr. Townsend of the $100 a day in goods being misappropriated from 
the warehouses. 

He refers in his sentence: 

We know that more than $100 a day is being misappropriated. 

And the memorandum is addressed to you. Do vou agree with that? 

Mr. Empie. I will answer it in this way: That so far to date I 
have never had an accounting, an actual dollar value presented to me 
to show what anybody estimated on it. I can't dispute it and still 
I don't think it is right. I think it is exaggerated. 

Air. Steedman. Well, he was in charge of the warehouses under 
j'^ou at that time; was he not? 

Mr. Empi^. General supervision; yes. You will have an oppor- 
tunity to question Mr. Wickersham on that point. I believe he can 
tell you more of the details about it and very sincerely too. 



8968 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. You have a loss from the warehouses? 

Mr. Empie. There is no question but what we have a reasonable 
loss, a normal loss, I would say. 

Mr. Steedman. But you don't know how much that loss is? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever endeavored to find out? 

Mr. Empie. Except in Ihis way: That the chief warehouseman and 
people operating under his direction know that they must report 
any shortages. That is a part of our procedure and they are familiar . 
with it. 

Mr. Steedman. How is that handled in your accounting records? 

Mr. Empie. That is acted upon by a board of survey, property board 
of survey appomted by me as accountable officers, to act in review of 
those cases — ^any cases of loss or damage or disposal of property. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That loss then would actually be shown in the 
records? There would be no covering up of them by juggling the 
figm-es? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir, it wouldn't— not if I had anything to do with 
it and I would have something to do with it. 

Mr. Steedman. You received this memorandum on December 16, 
1942, with that statement: 

We know that more than $100 a day is being misappropriated. 

Did you reply to this memorandum? 

Mr. Empie. I don't recall whether I did or not. My records would 
show that. 

Mr, Steedman. I would like to call your attention to this addi- 
tional statement: 

It is now being generally discussed among -the Japanese warehouse people 
that they will be able to cover up their records and in many instances they have 
already discussed the manner of hiding out various types of supplies and equip- 
ment so that they could not be compelled to show them on their inventory. 

Do you think that statement is correct? 
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know whether it is or not. 
Mr. Steedman. Did you investigate that statement? 
Mr. Empie. I may have by calling it to the attention of the chief 
warehouseman. 

Mr. Steedman. And that is Mr. Wickersham? 
Mr. Empie. If I did he will remember it. 
Mr. Steedman. He states further: 

In many cases it has been proven that the requisitions have been completely 
destroyed and not returned to the warehouse at all. 

Did you make any investigation of that point in the memorandum? 

Mr. Empie. Again if I did I referred .it to Mr. Wickersham. I 
didn't personally that I recall. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had any labor difficulties in the ware- 
houses? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; we have. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you state what those difficulties were? 

Mr. Empie. Well, in my opinion the most outstanding difficulty 
was our inability to convince the evacuees that they should unload 
and handle heavy construction materials that were being shipped 
into the project, and arriving at the railhead at Parker. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITLEiS 8969 

They had the impression, whether due to the project's inabihty to 
properly exphiiii it to them, I don't know, that when they unloaded 
construction material consisting of lumber, steel, cement, and so 
forth, that they were doing that for the benefit of some contractor 
whom they thought had charge of building the public works facili- 
ties — u-rigation and roads and subjugation, and so forth, and they 
refused to iniload or handle any heavy equipment. 

I say "refused." They objected very strenuously and we were 
always m a conference with them about it to try to convince them 
that it was a part of the project — a part of the project work and 
inasmuch as it was a part of the policy to employ the evacuees in all 
jobs, that they must take their responsibility in that work as well 
as any other. 

However, I am inclined to believe from later discussions with various 
evacuees that they considered the thing from the standpoint of an 
actual subsistence basis. They were willing to participate in any 
work that contributed directly to their immediate welfare on the 
project, but when it came to taking on this over-all pictm-e that we 
spoke of this morning, taking any active part in working hard for the 
benefit of the Indians in the future, why, they couldn't see it, and on 
that basis we later on eliminated all of the evacuees at the Parker 
warehouses and have smce handled all of the incoming shipments 
at the railhead with Indian employees — -with very few Indian employ- 
ees who kept the tracks clear and the merchandise in transit. 

Mr. AluxDT. Do the Japanese volunteer their labor around the 
camp for which they are not paid? 

Air. Empie. Yes; they do. 

IMr. AluxDT. Would you elaborate on that a little? 

Mr. Empie. Quite often they are called in to do things voluntarily 
and they will get a crew from various blocks and do certain types of 
work. It is my understanding that in those instances they are not 
on the pay roll. 

Mr. IxIuxDT. Those are just incidental jobs? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; that is correct. 

Mr. Steedmax. I hand 3^ou a letter on the letterhead of the United 
States Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Field 
Service, Colorado River war relocation project, Poston, Ai"iz., dated 
May 28, 1942: 

Memorandum to Mr. Roy Potter, acting supply and transportation officer. 

and signed by you. 

Do you recognize your signature? 

"Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Steedmax. Did you write this letter? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Steedmax. Mr. Chairman, I would Hke to offer this in evidence 
and read it into the record. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, it will be so ordered. 

Mr. Steedmax [reading]: 

We have been facing labor difficulties in connection with the employment of 
Japanese in various capacities, but I think in particular in connection with the 
operation of the warehouses. 

In some instances, according to verbal reports which have been made, many 
Japanese have failed to report for duty after having been assigned to specific jobs. 



8970 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

In order that an intelligent report may be made to the project director with 
respect to this matter, it is requested that a daily report be made citing each in- 
stance involving the failure of Japanese to report for duty or to carry out assign- 
ments given them. 

Were the reports that you requested fui'nished you? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have copies of those reports at your 
Poston office? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In your files there? 

Mr. Empie. I beheve so, but if not in my immediate file in the file 
of the chief warehouseman. 

Mr. Steedman. I have a memorandum dated July 11, 1942, which 
is addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie, submitted by Mr. Roy Potter, the 
transportation and supply officer, with reference to labor difficulties, 
which was furnished me by Mr. Townsend and I would like to read 
this memorandinn into the record. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, it is so ordered. 

Air. Steedman [reading]: 

We continue to experience considerable difficulty in obtaining sufficient labor 
to operate properly the warehouse and handle the equipment and materials as it 
arrives. 

It appears to me that around 100 willing workers are doing all the work for the 
entire camp. The large percentage of the men whom we have employed at the 
shop and warehouse are competent and willing to go to extremes in their effort 
to get the job done. We have assigned one of our assistant warehousemen to 
supervise an extra crew which goes on duty at 1 p. m., working through until 
9 p. m., but this crew has dwindled down until yesterday only two appeared for 
duty, and although we have a request with the employment office for from 15 
to 25 men for the past 10 days, none have reported for work, and they inform us 
that they are unable to obtain the, necessary labor. The consequence of this, 
freight which arrives in the evening is unloaded by volunteers from the group who 
have been on duty the entire day; when a truck arrives after 6 o'clock, Mr. Camp- 
bell, who is held in high regard by his employees, contacts some of these day crews 
and they report to help him out in the emergency. It is reported to me that 
numerous Japanese who are idle, harass these willing workers reminding them 
that they could get by without working the same as they, the idlers, have been 
doing. 

Another concrete evidence of the labor difficulties is with the roads division. 
On the 9th it was necessary that a bridge which would carry a semitrailer truck 
loaded with stove oil be constructed across the ditch running through the north 
end of camp. They notified the employment office that a certain amount of 
labor would be needed and brought their equipment and men the morning of the 
10th to do the job, but they were unable to obtain anyone to help get the bridge 
in. At noon I learned of this condition and knowing that it was necessary to 
get the stove oil to the north end of the camp, I went to a crew which was working 
for the irrigation and got them to loan their men to the road division for completion 
of the bridge. 

Another incident which occurred at the warehouse last week was when an 
entire group sent out on a job demanded that they be assigned easier tasks. 
When this became known to Mr. Campbell, he remarked to them that the usual 
procedure for anyone who was<i't satisfied with the job on which he was working 
W'as to quit, and that the.t was their privilege. They immediately availed them- 
selves of this privilege. The majority of this group, I believe, were from Salinas. 
Continually during the operations at the warehouse, men have quit the job because 
the task was too difficult and Mr. Campbell has kept the list of all these men 
and we have decided that they will not be given another opportunity to work in 
any of the warehouse activities. 

Numerous other instances could be related as evidence of this labor situation. 
I am of the opinion that projects should be originated which would put every 
man to work. There is now an abundance of hand tools such as shovels, picks, 
et cetera, in the warehouse which would be available for constructing by hand the 



I 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8971 

numerous ditches which would be needed within the area and also streets and roads 
could be improved and graded with hand tools. 

If the time should arrive when this sort of work could be started, then I am 
certain they would have no difficulty in obtaining the labor needed to do the 
necessary work and building within the project area. 

And that is signed — • 

Roy Potter, 
Transportation and Supply Officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall that memorandum? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, very well. Do you want me to make a statement 
in reijard to it? 

Mr. Steedman. Go right ahead. 

Mr. Empie. That, I might say, is the kind of evidence which has 
been placed from time to time on file in my office to show the difficulty 
that members of our organization were having in accomplishing the 
work assigned to them. 

It has been a fight from the beginning — evacuees you: could depend 
on who would stay on the job and do the work assigned to them. A 
great mam^ of them are deserving of recognition. They have stayed 
b}' their posts in spite of the hai-assing from others. Nevertheless, 
from the over-all picture there has developed, in my opinion, a laxity 
in work habits among the evacuees that is going to be hard for them 
to correct in later years when they go outside the project and go back 
to normal life and this experience is over. 

And agam in my opinion I believe that the right kind of action 
could be taken to correct it. I believe that the right kind of instruc- 
tions from the W. R. A. central office, strictly enforced all down the 
line, would correct all that monkey business. 

Mr. MuNDT. At that point, would you be willing to state some of the 
constructive ideas which you have, for the enlightmeht of the com- 
mittee? 

Mr. Empie. I will do my best. 

Mr. MuNDT. We would appreciate it. 

^fr. Empie. It has been our experience and the experience of those 
people I am speaking of, the ones in my immediate organization, that 
when you outline an assignment to an evacuee he understands what 
you mean but he is watching you to see if you are going to make him 
do it. If he thinks he can get away with it, he is not going to do it 
unless he has some inherent incentive and will to do it for the good of 
himself and of the community; the welfare of his fellow n?en. 

On the other hand, as I say, if you set up a policy and you make 
them see that you mean business, that you are not going to tolerate 
any monkey business at all, it is my firm conviction that they will 
do the job, and as disciplinary action in case they don't, I believe that 
measures could be instituted that would be effective and I believe some 
of the measures would be to simply say, for instance, "If you don't 
put out the work here on this job, you are going to be laid off — there 
is going to be no opportunity given you to work any place else on the 
project until you prove to us that yf^^i ai-e going to mend your ways." 

As it has been now on our particular project where we are supposed 
to have an employment division, and a director of employment in 
charge of all that, there should be a following up under the project 
director's direction and see that there is no interbidding for jobs — no 
transfer from one job to another just on a fellow's personal ideas, and a 
strict system established for controlling it. 



8972 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

In other words, if I lay a man off and tell him he is through, it 
should be fixed so he can't go over to somebody else and get on and 
pull the same thing over there. I believe it can be done. 

I have always felt it could be done and I think if the project had 
been set up on that basis to start with and that firm control was 
exercised, there wouldn't have been any trouble. 

I would like to bring in here, however, that the whole crux of this 
situation, in my opinion, is the question of segregation. 

Air. MuNDT. That was the next thing I was going to ask you about. 
I was going to ask you if you didn't feel that the fact you haven't 
segregated the bad fellows from the goods one has had a bad effect 
on the Japanese who might be inclined to work? 

Mr. Empie. Absolutely. I think that is the first and foremost 
problem the W. R. A. should have attacked and solved imme- 
diately ^they should have arranged innnediately to get these people 
out. 

Mr. MuNDT. But you don't feel that that can be solved? You feel 
that that would be very difficult. Do you feel there is a way you can 
distinguish between the loyal and disloyal Japanese or the ambitious 
and indolent Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know whether there is any way you can read a 
man's mind to determine whether deep down in his heart he is loyal 
to the United States. All you can judge him by is his actions. If he 
gives you any indication whatsoever that he is not, he should be 
disposed of in the described manner. Somebody has to figure that 
out. We have internment camps and the W. R. A. is trying to set up 
an isolation camp for certain classes and I have asked jVIr. Head many 
times what was being done to segregate people that were considered 
out of line wiUi the project requirements, and out of line with the 
welfare of the community. His answer, in general, without going 
into the details which I might have forgotten, was that in cooperation 
with G-2, Military Intelligence, O. N. I., the Federal Bureau of In- 
vestigation, that those, matters are being taken care of and not being 
in contact with it myself, I assume that is correct. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is the kind of an answer we got yesterday 
from Mr. Gelvin. He understood when the camp was being estab- 
lished and nearly ready for use, that they had been working on that 
for a long time and would soon be ready to open the camp. Isn't 
that what he said yesterday? 

Mr. MuNDT. At Luppe, Ariz. 

Mr. Empie. At Luppe, Ariz., I understand; yes. I understand 
there are several families there now, several inmates. 

Mr. Eberharter. Have any gone to that camp from Boston? 

Air. Empie. I couldn't say that. That would not come to my 
attention. 

Mr. Costello. The only ones taken from Boston were the ones 
definitely subversive whom the F. B. I. removed? 

Mr. Empie. So far as I know; yes, sir. 

Air. Costello. And there is no doubt that agitators have been left 
in the camp. Has any penalty been meted out for those agitators, 
or some sort of punishment? 

Air. Empie. I don't know in what way. 

Mr. Costello. Hasn't anybody even attempted to punish those 
who are causing trouble or agitation in the camp? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8973 

Air. Empie. I will say in this way — through the efforts of the in- 
ternal-security division and the police and legal procedure that has 
been established on the part of the camp organization, manned prin- 
cipally by evacuees under the supervision of a Caucasian project 
attorney and Caucasian police officer. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The internal-security division is made up, how- 
ever, largely of evacuees? 

Mr. P^MPiE. Yes, sir; it is only supervised by the appointed 
personnel. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do we have a record or anything that shows 
how the internal-security division operates — its procedure and how it 
is manned and what results it has been getting? 

Mr. Steedman. I feel we had better develop that at this point. 

Who is in charge of the internal-security division at the present 
time at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. It is in the immediate charge of Mr. Ernest L. Miller, 
who operates under the direction of the project director. 

Mr. Steedman. "VA hat is his title? 

Mr. Empie. This will be misleading because it is a pay-roll title. 
It was assigned by our classification division in the secretary's office 
in order to, in their opinion, give it the grade which the W. R. A. paid 
on other projects of $3,800. It is chief welfare officer, I believe. I 
will check that on the pay roll if you want ine to, but the title we use 
in the other W. R. A. projects is "chief of internal security." 

We refer to it that way on our project except for pay-roll purposes. 

Mr. Steedman. Has l\'Ir. Miller had any police experience? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; he had. 

Mr. Steedman. Prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. ^Miere? 

Mr. Empie. On the San Francisco police force. 

Mr. Steedman. How is your internal-security division 'set up? 

Mr. Empie. Under the, as I said, under the supervision of police 
squads or police organizations for each unit, composed of evacuee 
members. Police officers and sul)ordinates on down the line, with 
which I am not familiar, are established and operated the same as any 
other city police operate. 

Mr. Steedman. Are there any Caucasians working with Mr. Miller? 

Mr. Empie. Until recently one assistant, Mr. Robert Scott. 

Mr. Steedman. AMiere is Mr. Scott now? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know. He left the project a short time ago. 
I don't know wdiere he went. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he resign? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know that. In fact it just came to my atten- 
tion a few days ago that he had left the project and I haven't in- 
quired about the reason. 

Mr. Steedman. And under Mr. Miller, you have a Japanese chief 
of police; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. For each miit: yes. 

Mr. Steedman. So the intei-nal-security division is dependent upon 
the Japanese policemen to keep law and order inside of the cam^p; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Empie. That is right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We might take a brief recess for a few minutes. 
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

62626 — i3— vol. 15 ^10 



8974 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will please come to order. You 
may proceed, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any wealthy Japanese at the Poston 
center? 

Mr. Empie. It is my understanding we do. I don't know them. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made any check upon the amount of 
wealth they might have? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the amount of 
property that each evacuee owns? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You have kept no statistics on that at all? 

Mr. Empie. Not in my part of the organization. We have recently 
established what is known as the evacuee property office. They 
may have that information. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlio is in charge of that office? 

Mr. Empie. A man that the W. R. A. sent into the project by the 
name of Schmitt. 

Mr. Steedman. And who is the project attorney whom you men- 
tioned? 

Air. Empie. Mr. Theodore Haas. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see Mr. Haas' personnel papers when he 
came to work at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. No; I didn't. He was formerly an employee of the 
Solicitor's office in the Department of the Interior. He was assigned 
to the project through the efforts of the Indian Office and as I remem- 
ber later on went over to the W. R. A. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much money each evacuee 
has on deposit in the various banks in southern California or through- 
out the United States? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you exercise any control over the evacuees' 
personal funds? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Do they handle their financial affairs through the 
project attorney? 

Mr. Empie. I am not familiar with that; I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not any of the evacuees 
are drawing $500 a month from the Federal Reserve bank and at 
the same time living on the Govei^nment at Government ex'pense? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know that; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. That is possible, is it not? 

Mr. Empie. (No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. It is possible, is it not, for an alien to have his 
funds impounded and permitted to draw a maximum of $500 a 
month and still live at the expense of the Government at the project? 

Mr. Empie. I am not familiar with those regulations, Mr. Steedman. 
I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think if the project had control over the 
funds of the evacuees that the project would be in a better position 
to get the evacuees to work? 

Mr. Empie. It might be a contributing factor. I don't know. 
I never thought of it. 



• UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITrES 8975 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to ^o back again to Mr. Potter. Do 
you think the fact that Mr. Potter suggested that they should organize 
a pick and shovel gang at Poston, contributed to his transfer away 
from the center? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You think that had nothing to do with it? 

Mr. Empie. No. sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. To what extent do you think the wage scale at 
Poston prevents getting satisfactory work out of tlie Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. I think it has all to do with it. 

Mr. Costello. You think the wage scale should be increased in 
order to ofl'ectively get the Japanese work? 

Mr. Empie. I couldn't say that. It just occurs to me it wouldn't 
be in keeping with good business to do that. I feel this way about it, 
that after working various evacuees at various types of positions in 
my organization, that some of them, even at $19 a month, do more 
work than you could get for $200 a month on the outside b}' some other 
person. They are just good workers when they want to work. "Wlien 
they do want to work they really shell it out. 

Mr. Costello. Those Japs who are industrious are willing to work, 
at that low figure? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. I think it would be an additional incentive 
and it .has often been expressed by them, if they could be paid at the 
going wages, instead of having tlieLr efforts exploited at $19 a month, 
that they would work. 

Mr. Costello. If they do work they only get $19 a month and if 
they don't work they still get food and clothing, and naturally they 
don't consider their housing and food as a part payment for the work 
being done? 

Mr. Empie. The way they express it is that the Government took 
them from their former abodes and transplanted them and that it is 
the obligation, of the Government to furnish them with food and 
clothing and shelter and other facilities. When we begin to nego- 
tiate with them about working harder or more efficiently, they say: 
"Well, where is the incentive?" 

I have tried to point out in dealing with the people in my organi- 
zation that they have got to look beyond this $19 a month, not only 
for the purpose of their own good inwardly but by reason of the fact 
that in actually doing the work they are Iniilding up an experience 
record that will be recognized in the future when they apply for jobs 
some place else. 

If they have that experience, I explain to them, they can say: "Yes, 
I worked as an accountant at Poston." 

And that I did thus and so, and if somebody will swear to that and 
it is recognized by the Civil Service Commission in later years — I 
believe it should be taken into consideration by them, and I have tried 
to point that out to them. A good many of them are working on 
that basis. 

We have one person in particular who just came to my attention a 
short time ago. I asked why he was moving from one section of my 
office to another section and hife reply was that he had gotten all 
the experience that he thought he needed in that line of work and 
wanted to move to something else so as to round out his experience at 
Poston. 



8976 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Are those exceptional cases? 

Mr. Empie. I would say that those are in the minority, yes, but it 
is the class of work — ^I believe those in the accounting field and 
clerical field are more inclined to do that. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have a camouflage net factory operating 
in the center at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. We did have; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who built that net factory? 

Mr. Empie. It was built by the Army engineers. 

Mr. Steedman. Under contract? 

Mr. Empie. I believe so. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what it cost? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese at first refuse to work in the 
net factory? 

Mr. Empie. There was a great deal of discussion about whether' 
they would work or not and, as I viewed it, it was a matter of labor 
relations. In other words, "What was the percentage." After they 
found out that they could go in there and work on a piece basis and 
^be paid on the work that they turned out, they put out more work 
'than they put out anywhere else on the job. They exceeded all the 
estimates that had been submitted for accomplishing the manufacture 
of nets. « 

Mr. Steedman. They were paid on a piece work basis in the net 
factory? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. But at first they voted on whether or not they 
would work in the net factory? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And on the first vote they voted against working 
in the net factory; is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that correct? 

Mr. Empie. I believe that is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that vote on the basis that they did not wish 
to do anything that would contribute to our war effort? 

Mr. Empie. I don't believe it was. I am not in position to say 
because I don't know all the ramifications of that thing, but I have a 
feeling, as I said before, that it was a labor relations point. They 
were looking to the Director of Employment to negotiate with the 
contractor for a little better pay. That is my inclination. 

Mr. Sieedman. Who was in direct charge of the net factory? 

Mr. Empie. The contractor oj^erating imder the supervision of the 
United States Engineers who furnished inspectors for it. 

Mr. Steedman. And who was the contractor? 

Mr. Empie. A man by the name of John Stahl. 

Mr. Steedman. Is he paid by the project? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; paid by the engineers under an agreement 
between himself and his organization and the United States Engineers. 

Mr. Steedman. Does he receive a percentage on the nets produced 
in the factory? 

Mr. Empie. I am not familiar at all with the provisions of the 
contract. A copy of the contract has never been furnished our office, 
to my knowledge. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS 8977 

Mr. Steedman. Does he have an office in the net factory? 

Mr. Empie. He did have; yes. • 

Mr. Steedman. Did he stay, at the net factory most of the time? 

Mr. Empie. He had representatives there. 

Mr. Steedman. How many? 

Mr. Empie. Two that I know of; a man by the name of Rosen- 
bloom, his auditor, and a man by the name of Bilhcke. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know their first names? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I do not. 

]\Ir. Steedman. You don't know the percentage that Mr. Stahl 
received for supervising the work at the net factory, do you? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many nets the factory turned 
out? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who would have information regarding the net 
factory? 

Mr. Empie. The United States Engineers' office. 

Air. Steedman. Where? 

Mr. Empie. 751 South Figueroa Street. 

Mr. Steedman. Los Angeles? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. If they don't have the information, they can 
get it. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you purchased any materials from salvage 
firms in Los Angeles? 

Mr. ]MuNDT. Pardon me. Before you leave the net factory, w^hat 
was the average monthlj^ income of the Japanese working on piece 
work ir that factory? 

Mr. Empie. I don't have any information on that except a verbal 
report that I heard one time, that they were making about $15 a day — 
as much as $15 a day on a piece-work basis. They were all busy. 
You ought to visit one of those places and watch them make nets. 

Mr. MuNDT. What was the basis on which they were assigned to 
the net factory? It would seem there would be a big scramble for 
those jobs. 

Mr. Empie. Evei^ybody who wanted to could apply for a job. 
!Many of them moved out of our offices to take jobs there on the basis 
that the W. R. A. originally planned to provide private employment 
in places adjacent to the project or could contribute to the war effort 
in that manner. 

Mr. Steedman. Has the project at Poston, through your office, 
purchased any materials from salvage companies in Los Angeles? 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Air. Steedman. \Miat materials have been purchased from such 
companies? 

Air. Empie. You say "salvage companies." I am not famDiar 
with whether they are considered salvage companies or not, but we 
have bought a lot of material here in Los Angeles. It is one of our 
chief sources of supply. 

Air. Steedman. Did the project buy some trucks? 

Air. Empie. Yes, sir; we bought some trucks here from the Indus- 
trial Equipment Co. 

Air. Steedman. How many trucks were purchased? 

Air. Empie. As I recall, 12. 



8978 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Who are the owners of the Industrial Equipment 
Co? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know a man by the name of Mr. Finkel- 
stein? 

Mr. Empie. He is not with the Industrial Equipment Co. — Finkel- 
stein? We bought a lot of stuff from Finkelstein who was con- 
tacted by a representative of the Indian Irrigation Service at 751 
South Figueroa Street, who acted for the project in assisting us to 
secure construction materials, orders for which were placed by the 
chief engineer of our project. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Rupkey? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the officer of the Indian Service that put 
you in touch with Mr. Finkelstein? 

Mr. Empie. I believe, as I recall, that stuff was bought by Mr. 
Henderson — Paul Henderson. 

Mr. Steedman. Were some trucks purchased from Mr. Finkelstein? 

Mr. Empie. Not that I remember of; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What was purchased from him? 

Mr. Empie. Well, we bought a lot of scrap material such as old 
iron and pipe and plmnbing fittings and things of that kind. 

This material was ordered by Mr. Rupkey on the basis that it 
would have to be susbtituted in lieu of steel, which could not be 
procured except on high priority. It was needed, he thought, and we 
all thoup;ht, somewhere else worse than we needed it. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you ever prorest against any of these pur- 
chases from Mr. Finkelstein? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, I did. I didn't think that we had any use for it. 
I spoke to Mr. Rupkey about it several times and asked him what 
he intended to do with it, and he said he was going to use it in the 
construction of irrigation features, and I left it to his judgment. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much material was purchased 
from Mr. Finkelstein in terms of dollars? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; but I can report it to you. 

Mr. Steedman. I wish you would give the committee that informa- 
tion. 

Mr. Mundt. Who proved to be right? You or Mr. Rupkey? 
Was the material used that he purchased? 

Mr. Empie. I think some of it has been used, and I think some of 
it is still in stock. I can give you a report on that, too. 

Mr. Mundt. Will you do that, please. 

Mr. Steedman. Who were the 12 trucks purchased from? 

Mr. Empie. Bought those from the Industrial Equipment Co. 

Mr. Steedman. And who owns that company? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know who owns it. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you inspect the trucks before they were pur- 
chased? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Steedman. And did you agree to the purchase of those trucks? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the trucks m good order when they were 
purchased? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8979 

Mr. Empie. Yes; I think it can be said that they were in good order. 
They needed working on from that'standpointf They didn't have 
tail hghts; the batteries were run down; and there had to be some 
work done on them to put them in road condition. 

I came over here and looked the trucks over and told the officials 
of the company that we would accept delivery at the time they notified, 
me that they had been placed in road condition. 

By that I mean that these trucks had been operated as dump 
trucks under a power shovel and they, like any other trucks utilized 
in that manner, had gotten some knocks. 

Some of the radiator grills had beiMi broken and some of the lights 
were gone and some of the glass out of the windows, but those trucks 
were bought at a time when we w^ere making every attempt to get the 
largest amount of work done over there in the shortest period of time. 

\Ve advertised for bids and I don't recall how many bids we received, 
but these bids were the low bids and after discussing it with various 
members of the organization, including Mr. Rupkey, we decided to 
go ahead and make the purchase. 

Mr. Steedman. Have any trucks been purchased that had to be 
towed into Poston from Los Angeles? 

Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge. These particular trucks — I 
have a recent report from the supply and transportation officer on 
them, because I was interested myself in how they worked out, be- 
cause, not being mechanically minded myself, I wouldn't know whether 
a motor was bad or a transmission had gone out or a differential needed 
adjustment or something, and I asked them to give me a report on 
them and he assured me that they have given very satisfactory service. 

They have been put in service there on the road work and other 
parts of the project. 

Mr. Steedman.- Can you cite any other instances wdiere you pro- 
tested against buying certain materials for the project? 

Mr. Empie. Well, that would be pretty hard to enumerate because 
of this fact: I have always taken the attitude in reviewing purchase 
requests that the best policy is to say "No" right off the bat. You 
might be able to talk them out of it. And working on that basis you 
finally jew them down, and if they can convince you and put something 
in the record that will show that they are willing to take the responsi- 
bility, we go ahead and make the purchase. Otherwise, we don't. 

Mr. Costello. Were those the only trucks that were purchased 
for the camp? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Costello. I mean those 12 trucks? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. I think we purchased some others. I could 
give you a complete record of all the purchases of trucks if you would 
like to have it. 

Mr. Costello. It would be interesting because we did have a report 
to the effect that some of the trucks were not in good condition and 
were not used at the camp. 

Do you know of any trucks that were purchased for Poston that 
were actually not put into service after they were purchased? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know but I wdl get a report for you and make 
it complete, of all the trucks we have purchased. 

Mr. Costello. We will appreciate it if you will. 



8980 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Gelvin said that you could give the committee 
the estimated cost of the schools that are being build at Poston. Do 
you have those figures with you? 

Mr. Empie. In round figures only. They would be from my 
memory. 

Mr. Steedman. That will be satisfactory. 

Mr. Empie. About $470,000. 

Mr. Steedman. That is a considerable expenditure for a temporary 
project such as this relocation center, is it not? 

Mr. Empie. On the basis that the relocation program is going 
forward and they are going to move away from the camp, and on the 
basis that it is a temporary establishment; yes. 

On another basis, that is that they are apt to be there for some time, 
and that the Indians will benefit from them in the future, that is the 
justification. 

Mr, Steedman. But there was no plan to build such a school 
system prior to the establishment of the center at Poston, was there? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir; that is my understanding, there wasn't. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of keeping the vital statistics at 
Poston? 

Mr. Empie. The director of health and sanitation. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that under your department? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the mortician in charge of the crematory 
at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Mr. Ray E. Bower. 

Mr. Steedman. Where does Mr. Bower reside? 

Mr. Empie. He lives on the project but his regular establishment 
is at Yuma. 

Mr. Steedman. Is he at the center at Poston most of his time? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. Would you like to know something about 
the cost of burials? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes; if you have that information the committee 
would like to have it. 

Mr. Empie. When we first went there we solicited bids from 
various undertaking establishments. That was one of the first things 
we had to face — the disposition of the bodies. 

After soliciting bids Mr. Bower of the Yuma mortuary at Yuma, 
put in the low bid and a contract was entered into for those services. 

For a few burials we had to do it on the open-market basis. He was 
the first or the nearest source that we could look to. He came up and 
we transacted several — ^completed several transactions on the basis of 
the open market without a contract. After we got the contract 
prepared it was on this basis. 

This, as you may know already, is on the basis of cremating the 
bodies. This crematory service includes embalming, all undertaking 
services, casket, cremation and an urn for the ashes, and all incidental 
funeral services? 

Infants up to 1 year, $75. 
Children from I'to 12 year.?, $100. 

Adults of 13 and up, $125, or an average, on the theory that an equal number of 
each class of people will pass on, of $100 per burial 

We did have, before we got the crematory established, two or three 
deaths that involved the use of the cemetery. A cemetery site was 
selected for that but those bodies were exhumed later and cremated. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8981 

Mr. Sti>:edm AN. Does this mortician maintain records of all crema- 
tions at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. 1 believe he does. 

!Mr. Steedman. Those records are in his custody? 

Mr. Empie. I believe so, but I believe Dr. Pressman would have 
that too. 

Air. Steedman. Dr. Pressman is in charge of the hospital, is that 
correct? 

^Iv. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AIuNDT. \^ hat, if any, a,rrangements are made at the project 
for the religious inclinations of the evacuees? 

Mr. Empie. That would be out of my line but I understand they 
are allowed to conduct services in their own churches the same as they 
would anywhere else. 

!Mr. MuNDT. Thev have their own preachers or whatever they call 
them? ^ . ' 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. "\\ ho are interned there as well as the others? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are there any other outside religious influences brought 
into them? 

•Mr. Empie. Well, I believe to some extent. There are visits made 
to the project by various religious organizations who are interested 
in a number of people there. To what extent they operate within the 
area I haven't any knowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know Dr. Frank H. Smith who is con- 
nected with the Protestant Ministers' Association of San Francisco? 

Mr. Empie. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know^ Dr. Chapman of the same organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you laiow Mr. Norris James? 

Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he have a position at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. He occupied what is know-n as the position of reports 
officer. However, he was carried on the W. R. A. pay roll 

Mr. Steedman. \^Tiat was his entrance salary? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. What was his salary when he resigned? 

Mr. Empie. This would be a guess on my part because I don't know 
what it was, but I believe it was $3,800. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlien did he resign? 

Mr. Empie. I believe around the 1st of May. I am not sure about 
that. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he under your supervision? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the term "Kibei'.'? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have the Kibei at Poston caused you any trouble? 

Air. Empie. I don't know a Kibei from an Issei. 

Mr. Steedman. Are most of the trouble makers at Poston Issei? 

Mr. Empie. I am not prepared to say. I don't know. In other 
words I don't have any way of knowing w^hether they are Issei or Kibei 
or Nisei. I have never checked it through myself and I don't loiow. 



8982 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made a study or investigation of sub- 
versive practices inside the project? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. I think the project director does in company 
with the chief of internal security and I understand that they have 
records of clearances and the reasons so far as they are able to 
determine. 

Mr. Steedman. But the project director would have a report on 
that? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you have at Poston a man employed in the com- 
missary department by the name of Best? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; we did have. 

Mr. MuNDT. What was his position? 

Mr. Empie. He was chief steward at the time the project first 
started. 

I was in San Francisco, as I explained, on the 31st of March and met 
Air. Fyrer there and he was helping trying to get lined up to go to 
Poston and Mr. Fyrer hired Mr. Best to go to Poston and set up the 
kitchens and begin operating the mess halls. 

In order to accomplish that in the most efficient manner, he dis- 
patched iVIr. Best to Los Angeles for the purpose of interviewing Japa- 
nese who were expected to be the fu'st ones at the camp area, on the 
basis if we could go to the Army officials and say: "We have inter- 
viewed these people, experienced in this type of work and we would 
like to have them evacuated first so we can set up our organization and 
begin operations in a normal manner." 

Mr. Best proceeded to Los iingeles and interviewed many evacuees 
looking toward taking positions such as stewards, cooks, headwaiters 
and waitresses; kitchen help, storeroom keepers and that kind of 
people which are required to run a mess establishment. 

He then proceeded to Poston and I don't know of an evacuee that 
he interviewed that came there first. He had a raw recruiting job 
to do as they came in and he selected them to the best of his ability 
off the busses as they arrived, and as they finished their induction 
process they were told: "Now, here is the mess hall; if you people 
can cook you had better get busy; we have got food in here." 

And it was about 130° F. at the time and those evacuees who had 
been experienced cooks forgot a lot about cooking very quickly. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were the services of Mr. Best satisfactory? 

Mr. Empie. I didn't consider them so; no, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you think that might have been due to the 
difficulties under which he was laboring or was he unfit for the job? 

Mr. Empie. Well, we have tried to view the services of many of 
our employees in this light: That they have been working under 
extreme difficulties in that situation and where they might be very 
efficient some other place some of them didn't work out so good there. 

That is one of the reasons we have tried to be just as lenient as 
possible in dismissing them from the project. Otherwise they would 
have a good record and that is a point that I believe should be kept 
in mind. 

Mr. MuNDT. No question about the honesty or veracity of Mr, 
Best? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8983 

Mr. Empie. I (lon't believe so. I had several difficulties with Mr. 
Best. I was assigned the responsibility of looking after the steward 
department, but I couldn't keep him from going directly to the project 
director or somebody else with his troubles. He would do things that 
I didn't know anytliing about until sometime later. I never could 
get him rounded up and get him in line; and on top of that, I don't 
believe that he was equipped, by lack of experience we will say or 
some other reason, to manage a thing of that magnitude. He never 
convinced me that he was. 

Mr. Steedman. Didn't Mr. Best leave the project at Poston and 
take a position at Heart Mountain Relocation Center in Wyoming? 

Mr. Empie. I understand that he did; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words he left Poston and went directly to 
the Heart Mountain Relocation Center and took a position over 
there? 
. Mr. Empie. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. A similar position, didn't he? 

Mr. Empie. Not on om* recommendation. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you advise the W. R. A. at Heart Mountain 
that Mr. Best was inefficient and incapable of doing the work assigned 
to him at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. I believe we did. I can check on that point if you 
would like to have it. 

Mr. Steedman. I wish you would. How long did Mr. Best work 
at Heart Mountain? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How long was he at Poston? 

Mr. Empie. He arrived there about, oh, I would say the 10th of 
April 1942 and he left — I will have to check that record, but it seems 
to me it was along in the latter part of September. 

l\Ir. CosTELLO. Is he still employed at Heart Mountain? 

Mr. Empie. No, sir. In fact, I saw him in the hallway here today. 
That is my understanding. He may be on leave; I can't say. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, isn't it just routine Govern- 
ment practice to ask another project if a former employee is satis- 
factory? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; it is, and they asked us. 

Mr. Steedman. And you advised them that he wasn't satisfactory? 

Mr. Empie. I am sure we did. I will check it though and give 
you copies of the correspondence if you would like to have it. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it unusual for another organization to employ 
someone whom you have recommended to them as being unsatisfac- 
tory and inefficient? 

Mr. Empie. It is. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, that is all the questions I have. 

Mr. Empie has a statement he would like to .make to the committee. 

Mr. Eberharter. I would like to ask him one or two questions 
before he makes his statement. 

How many Caucasian employees do you have in the camp al- 
together? 

Mr. Empie. Well, we have approximately, including the irrigation 
laborers out on the irrigation construction work, approximately 600. 
Two hundred and twenty-four of those are what might be considered 
as regularly established positions. 



8984 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Eberharter. Two hundred and twenty-four? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. And of those 224 how many are males? 

Mr. Empie. Males? 

Air. Eberharter. Yes; men. 

Mr. Empie. Well, the greater percentage. I don't have the statis- 
tics on that. Would you like to have it? 

Mr. Eberharter. And of those males I woidd like to have you 
advise the committee those between the ages of 18 and 38 and those 
over the age of 38. 

Mr. Empie. All right, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. And would your records show whether or not 
deferment has been requested for any of the male employees who are 
of draftable age? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. Would you supply the committee with that 
information? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is all. 

Mr. MuNDT. How many of the 224 can speak Japanese? 

Mr. Empie. One to my knowledge. There may be others. 

Mr. MuNDT. And that one is a woman? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Have you tried to get white employees who can 
speak the Japanese language? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know that we have. 

Mr. MuNDT. Have you found it difficult to find them? 

Mr. Empie. I don't know that we have tried to do that. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. CosTELLo. You have a statement, I understand, Mr. Empie^ 
that you want to make at this time. 

Mr. Empie. I would like to if it is agreeable with the committee. 

Mr. CosTELLo. We are very happy to hear you on that. 

Mr. Eberharter. Your statement may cause us to ask you more 
questions. 

Mr. Empie. That is all right, if it does. 

If you will bear with me on this I will attempt to read from short- 
hand notes that I have prepared, because I did not want to attempt 
to express myself extemporaneously, which might be misleading. 

I would like to also say that in making this statement I want to be 
as sincere as possible and express myself in the way in which will best 
interpret to you my sincere beliefs about this situation. 

I have reason to believe that in carrying out the hearing this morn- 
ing, in answer to certain questions which have been asked me, that 
my replies might have proved, from a standpoint of the record, to be 
misleading. I may be wrong about that but I would like to correct 
those impressions if I made them, and I would like to attempt to do 
that in the following manner: 

First, as chief administrative officer in charge of administrative 
services at Poston, I established my part of the organization from the 
standpoint of economical operation, including full protection to all 
Government property. 

I have personally appeared many times before the project director 
in company with members of my organization, to report conditions 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8985 

existing in the operation of the project which I did not beUcve in and 
which I thought shoukl be stopped. 

These persons have inckuk^d the following employees by title: The 
property custodian, the supply and transportation ofTicer 

jNlr. ^luNDT. May I interrupt 3'ou there? Could you give us the 
names as well as the title? 

Mr. Empie. All right, sir. Property custodian, J. F. Reinliardt; 
supply and transportation officer, Mr. Roy Potter and Mr. Harold H. 
Townsend and Mr. F. M. Haverland; the fiscal ofiicer ]\lr. H. W. 
Smith, the chief warehouseman, E. S. Wickersham. Those I know 
for sure, and there may have been others. 

I would like to say also tkat at numerous staff meetings held on the 
project I consistently brought out the fact that my organization 
needed greater support in the control of the equipment and the preser- 
vation and conservation of Government property, and that the evacuees 
as well as others should be dealt witli in a manner designed to bring 
about tlie desired results tkat myself and members of my organization 
have advocated from tke beginning — tkat no evacuees skould be 
allowed in tke nearby town of Parker, and tkat I kave personally 
reported to tke project director tke fact tkat evacuees were seen in 
Parker on other tkan official business, tkat after many montks of 
suck reports tke project director asked me to report to kim in writing 
a list of any evacuees found in Parker witkout a proper pass or permit. 

Tins was done for a period of one week. Reports were transmitted 
to tke director. Insofar as I was able to observe tkere was no net 
result or desirable result. 

Tkat in demonstration of tke fact tkat good control could kave been 
exercised very few evacuees kave left tke camp area during tke past 
few weeks — not kaving been seen at Parker. 

I was also of tke opinion tkat a muck better relationskip between 
tke people of Parker and tke farmers of tke Parker Valley could be 
built up by seeing to it tkat tke evacuees stayed witkin tke immediate 
project vicinity,, in transacting our business between eack otker on 
tkat basis. 

It is my opinion tkat tke fact tkat tkey kave visited Parker from 
time to time lias served to cause antagonism to be expressed by tke 
townspeople wkick could kave otkerwise been avoided. 

Tke project director, since ke did not carry out tke recommendations 
along tkese lines made by myself and members of my organization, no 
doubt kas some very good reasons wkick I am in kopes will satisfy 
tke requirements of tke people wko are in tke end responsible for tke 
proper expenditure of Government funds, tke proper relationskip 
between tke public and tke Goverimient in tke operation of tke project. 

I kave tried to view it from this manner, that it was not for me to 
decide, being a member of his organization, but after I reported the 
conditions to him if he saw fit to act in accordance with his considered 
judp^ment that was up to him. 

The point there that I would like to bring out also is the fact that I 
have not only felt a sense of loyalty to the project director, being a 
part of his organization, but a sense of loyalty to the Office of Indian 
Affairs, Mr. Collier, Mr. Zimmerman, Mr. Greenwood, and the people 
charged with the responsibility of successfully operating the Indian 
Service. 



8986 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

They placed a great deal of confidence in me in sending me on what 
they considered an important post. In dealing with budget matters 
particularly, I have always felt that I was operating under the direc- 
tion of Mr. Greenwood, the finance officer for the Indian Service. 
He was the one that first interviewed me and asked me whether I 
would go to Poston, and my reply to him was, since I was a native of 
Arizona, "I am just fool enough to ask for that job," and I landed at 
Poston; and I have been attempting to carry out my duties in a manner 
satisfactory to the Indian Service and at the same time protect the 
interests of the Government in properly accounting for all moneys 
expended and all property acquired through the expenditure of 
Government funds. 

I would like also to say for the record that insofar as Mr. Townsend 
is concerned, I have no ill feeling toward him. It has been difficult 
for me to understand why he expressed so many ideas that were con- 
structive with regard to the preservation of Government property and 
was instrumental, in my opinion, of being able to establish some 
constructive procedures, and still later on learn that he did what is 
now shown in the record he did. 

I still have that to work out with Mr. Townsend as the adminis- 
trative man having reported it to the proper officials and as far as I am 
concerned, why, I believe it can be settled amicably and to the ad- 
vantage and interest of the Government. 

I would like to also say, if it is all right with the committee, I would 
like to make a statement in regard to Miss Findley. jVliss Findley 
has come in for some very severe criticism. I would like to have it 
known and like to have you gentlemen know that I came to know Miss 
Findley during her tour of duty on the project, and while I could not 
see the project's operations from her viewpoint, I have reason to be- 
lieve that she is one of the most sincere persons that I have ever met. 
She is^ — ^in her mind, she is honest, straightforward, and she will give 
you the best justification that you ever heard in response to some of 
your questions with regard to her ideas and actions. I don't think 
there is any question ])ut vrhat she is very sincere and I think I should 
also reiterate, possibly, or strengthen the point that in my opinion 
that same thing is true of Mr. Collier and Mr. Head and others who 
have been charged with the responsibility of the operation of this 
project. 

I have worked with them for a long period t>f time and I think that 
they are very sincere in their efforts and I would like to take this 
opportunity of expressing the appreciation and gratitude for the oppor- 
tunity to appear before the committee and give you gentlemen some 
of my viewpoints and an opportunity to let you have the other side 
of the picture. 

You have the files that I thought Mr. Townsend had taken without 
permission. He told me in correspondence later that they would be 
presented to me in the future and they would still be in Government 
hands and in good hands, and I don't have any reason to question that 
and on that basis I haven't been worried about it. I felt that way 
about it; that if Mr. Townsend, even though I have reason now not to 
employ him again in my organization, could bring about any good 
results from the use of any files of a Government office and on that 
basis that there must be some good could come from it, and I am in 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8987 

hopes tluit is true, and as I say I hold no ill feeling against Mr. 
Townsend; and I thank you very mueh. 

Mr. CosTELLO. "We appreeiate your statement and the balance 
of your testimony before^ the committee. 

^Ir. MuNDT. You do feel, do j^ou not, Mr. Empie, there are possibly 
some extenuating circumstances from Mr. Townsend 's point of view 
concerning this one rather black mark on his escutcheon with regard 
to this trip to Oklahoma City? 

Mr. Empie. Not having any opportunity to discuss it with Mr. 
Townsend, I don't question but what he has a very good reason and 
that he could write a volume on it, but whether lie is sincere in it I 
am at this moment open to conviction. 

Mr. MuNDT. As T understand it he did not make a claim to the 
Government for his expenses all the way to Oklahoma City? He left 
that. I think you said, vacant in his claim. 

Air. Empie. He did not make a claim for reimbursement of per diem 
but he charged all the gasoline and oil to us. which we didn't like. 

Mr. MuxDT. I don't blame you for that. I have one other question 
You said you did not have anything to do with deciding whether or 
not an applicant for indefinite leave has his application granted. 
That responsibility is the responsibility of Mr. Head, as I under- 
stand it. 

Mr. Empie. In the end, yes. That goes through the legal office and 
is approved by his office. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask one more question about the 
Townsend matter. 

As a matter of fact didn't Mrs. Townsend break her ankle at 
Poston? 

Mr. Empie. No, I understood she had trouble with her knee — she 
had trouble with her knee and she was confined in the hospital. 

Mr. Steedmax. At Poston? 

Mr. Empie. Yes; she was in the hospital for several days and we 
have a bill against Air. Townsend for $16 for that service that he 
didn't pay. 

Mr. Steedman. And there was a strike on at the time? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know whether the strike was on at the 
time she hurt her knee or not. 

Mr. Steedman. But at the time Mr. Townsend and his wife left 
Poston there was a strike in progress? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And some of the other Caucasian women and chil- 
dren were leaving the project at that time; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Empie. Well, I believe that is true. I believe he influenced 
them to leave. 

Mr. Steedman. But in any event they were leaving, w^eren't they? 

Mr. Empie. Well, in one instance. The man that worked under 
his direct supervision walked out on me and I had to take charge of 
that work myself. I dispatched the truck service for several days 
myself personally and I issued slips for each man to use the trucks 
because Townsend and Barrett both left during the strike. 

Air. Steedman. But Townsend requested permission to take his 
wife home, didn't he? 

Mr. Empie. That is right, he did. 



8988 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. And you gave him that permission, did you not? 

Mr. Empie. Isn't it clear in the record that I gave him permission 
to leave the project because he told me that he had personal business 
to attend to? 

Mr. Steedman. That is all. 

Mr. CosTELLo. During the strike you handled the trucks in Mr. 
Townsend's absence? 

Mr. Empie. Yes, I did, and I handled them for a day or two after 
he got back, until I convinced myself that he was going to take them 
over and do the right thing. 

Mr. Eberharter. I have one more question. Are you happy now 
that you have had an opportunity to appear before this committee, 
and do you feel that the questions asked of you were asked with open 
minds and simply in an attempt to get at the real facts? 

Mr. Empie. I believe so, yes, sir. I am firmly convinced that the 
attitude of the committee and your very efficient interviewer has been 
with the sincere desire to get at the foundation of the problem. I 
think we all recognize it is a problem. 

I like to recall the statement that Senator Chandler made in Phoenix. 
He said: 

It is a problem that none of us have the answer for. I don't know what the 
answer is. 

That was his statement. 

I would like to think of myself as a citizen of the United States 
taking my part in it on the basis of working it out to our mutual 
advantage. I don't know what the solution is but I am willing to do 
my part in trying to work it out if I can do so. 

Mr. Costello. We want to thank you very much for having ap- 
peared before the committee, Mr. Empie. I think you have been 
very frank -in your testimony and in replying to the questions that 
have been put to you. 

I think the testimony you have given here will be helpful to us and 
I trust that as a result of our hearing we may be able to be of some 
service in trying to clean up the problems that do confront the War 
Relocation Authority and to bring about a satisfactory handling of 
this particular problem that does confront us. 

Mr. Empie. I will be very gratified if that is true. 

Mr. Costello. Thank you for having come here today. The 
committee will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m., 
Thursday, June 10, 1943.) 



INYESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAIUNDA ACTIV- 
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 1943 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States 
Post Office and Courtlioiise, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M. 
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and 
Hon. Karl E. Mundt. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, 
acting counsel. 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. 

The witness this morning is Mayor Bowron, mayor of the city of 
Los Angeles, who has consented to appear before the committee. 

We appreciate very much your coming here. Mayor, because we 
imderstand how busy you are with the many problems of running a 
city of this size, and more particularly when you have added problems 
throwTi upon you during the present time. But we are grateful to 
you for coming here and appearing as a witness on behalf of the people 
of Los Angeles. 

Will you stand and be sworn. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 
before' this subcommittee, will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Bowron. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF FLETCHER BOWRON, MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES, 

CALIF. 

• 

Mr. Costello. Will you please state your name for the record? 

Mr. Bowron. Fletcher Bowron. 

Mr. Costello. I understand, Mayor, that you might like to make 
a statement to the committee regarding the Japanese relocation camps 
and the attitude, generally, of the city of Los Angeles toward the 
Japanese and their return to the Pacific coast. 

Mr. Bowron. Well, I woukl be very glad to. Congressman Cos- 
tello and members of the committee, the statements that I might give 
are my own views. I think, however, that I reflect fairly accurately 
the opinion of the big majority of the people of this community. 

Speaking for myself I feel that it would be very dangerous for the 
Japanese or any of them, to be returned to tlie Pacific coast area and 

8989 

62626— 43— vol. 15 11 



8990 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

particularly to the Los Angeles metropolitan section, during the con- 
tinuance of the war. 

I do not profess to have any information of a military character or 
as indicative of what their operations might be if returned as reflecting 
upon the safety of the community from a military point of view. But 
I do believe that the people here are thoroughly aroused; that it would 
be very unsafe for the Japanese themselves; and, of course, what would 
be the natm-al _ inference if any unfortunate occmrence should be re- 
corded and relayed across the Pacific, naturally we would fear for the 
safety of those who are in custody of the Japanese Government. 

With reference to those in the relocation centers I have made no 
investigation. I have not personally visited any of the relocation 
centers. I know nothing of my own knowledge as to conditions or 
treatment. Such opinions as I have are merely those of a citizen who 
has secm"ed his information from seCond-hand sources. 

I believe, however, from such communications as I have received 
from many people in this locality that it is the opinion and belief of the 
big majority of the citizens of southern California that the Japanese, 
whether they be born in this country or otherwise, should be under 
guard, should be watched and should be retained either in a relocation 
center, or if they are put out to do some work that might assist in the 
production of food or other production, should be supervised and not 
scattered among the civilian population. 

We here in Los Angeles have had our own experiences and know 
from our own knowledge that many that we thought very friendl}* 
were given the opportunity to enter homes of our citizens; converse 
with people of this locality and who aj^peared very courteous and 
friendly and seemingly inoffensive, later tm-ned out to be repre- 
sentatives of the Japanese Government, undoubtedly in search of 
mformation of military value. 

We also feel from our knowledge and association of years with 
Japanese that no one can tell who is loyal and who is not loyal. I 
think the people of this locality feel that the big majority of Japanese 
wherever they may be located, in concentration camps or whether 
they have been released to work or perform some occupation, are 
probably loyal to this country and would do nothing, but I challenge 
anyone — any one at all to pick out the one who is loyal and who is 
potentially dangerous. I do not think there is any known test. 

Certainly right here in this locality we have had our experiences 
and commg closer to my own official position, we had a nunrber of 
employees withui the city government, most of whom are probably 
loyal to this country and some of whom we believed to be 
loyal up until the time and even after the Pearl Harbor episode, but 
our own investigation convinced us otherwise and we know that some 
of those whom we believed to be actively engaged in behalf of the 
Japanese Government has since been released from relocation centers 
and we have not been consulted. No one told us that they were be- 
mg released. No one consulted their employers to see if we have any 
information concerning them, but by devious methods and routes we 
have learned that they have been released. 

I believe that so far as the economy of this locality is concerned, 
while prior to the war we depended very largely upon the Japanese 
population for food supply, particularly on the Japanese fishing fleet 
and truck gardners and those engaged in the retail distribution of 



UN-AAIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8991 

fruits and produce, but we have largely adjusted ourselves to the 
cliaugetl conditions and we do not need the Japanese. We are pay- 
ing more for our produce, more for our vegetables and fruit and fish 
but I believe the people of this locality are very glad to pay the dif- 
ference in the price in money for the secinity that we feel is a result 
of the absence of the Japanese from this locality. 

If you would direct my attention to matters that the committee 
would like to have me refer to, we probably can save the time of the 
committee. 

Mr. CosTELLO. One thought I have; you mentioned the matter of 
never having been consulted regarding the release of any of the 
Japanese from the camps. Has there been no single instance where 
anyone in the city administration has been interrogated about a 
former city employee of Japanese ancestry before he was released? 

Mr. BowRON. Not to my knowledge. I know that no inquiry 
has come to me and I think I am pretty close in touch with those 
officials and departments of the city government that would ordinarily 
be consulted if that was thought advisable or necessary by those who 
are in charge of releasing Japanese from relocation centers. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It has been indicated to the committee that in 
releasing the Japanese they are relying entirely upon their records 
established by the Japanese themselves at the relocation camps and 
a cursory check, possibly, of their past police records, but that no 
effort has been made to check with formei* employees or employers 
as to what their attitude might be regarding such individuals. 

Mr. BowRON. Let me say a police record is not indicative of any- 
thing so far as I can see. Generally speaking the Japanese in this 
locality have been law abiding. We have had very little trouble with 
them over the years so far as violatmg the statutes are concerned, and 
by reason of that fact we have not been very inquisitive to find out 
what they have been doing and much to our amazement after the 
beginning of the war we apparently learned that nobody else was in- 
quisitive as to what they were doing; that there was no agency that 
was actually making an investigation. 

So far as I am aware this committee has made gi-eater strides in 
finding out what had been going on dm-ing times of peace than any 
other agency of the Federal Government or elsewhere. 

It was not the function of the State goveriunent, of course, to make 
any such inquny. 

^Ir. CosTELLO. About the only direct investigation of Japanese 
activities w^as that of the fishing fleet; isn't that correct? 

Mr. BowRON. So far as I know. 

Mr. Co'^TELLO. No one was concerned about those engaged in 
agricultural pursuits as to wiiat they were doing or their activities 
when not on the farm or anything of that character. 

Regarding agi'icultural production, Mayor, has there been any de- 
crease in the amount of foodstuffs available in the city because of the 
lack of Japanese in the farm areas? 

Mr. BowRON. I cannot give you accurate information relative to 
that because I have made no investigation. I believe that there has 
been quite a considerable decrease in available foods in the nature of 
fresh vegetables and berries and fruit, but I have already indicated 
that I think the people of this locality are willing to adjust themselves. 



8992 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. I have heard the report since I have been home that 
the total amount of products produced is greater than when the 
Japanese were here but that certain truck graden products have 
diminished, such as celery and head lettuce and things of that char- 
acter. 

Mr. BowRON. That may be true, but I want to emphasize the fact 
that that is a matter that I have not inquired into and it is merely 
an impression. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Another question: Don't you feel it is rather bad 
economy to allow any group of people of alien ancestry to gain control 
-of some particular item in our economy such as was the condition 
here in Los Angeles County where people of Japanese ancestry had 
almost complete control of agricultural production? 

Mr. BowRON. Well, our retrospection, of course, is better than our 
realization at the time. Now, we realize that is true but it was 
merely natural, because there have been few others that would adapt 
themselves to the kind of work on the truck farms that the Japanese 
so readily adjusted themselves to and everyone was content to let 
them pursue those occupations that requhed long hours and squatting 
and digging and gathering strawberries and celery and similar articles 
that are produced on the truck farms. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Those are all the questions I have; Mr. Eber- 
harter, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Eberharter. Mayor Bowron, the very fact that the Japanese 
are law abiding insofai* as city or municipal ordinances are con- 
cerned, as well as State laws, in yom- opinion does that make them 
potentially more dangerous in that no suspicion is ever created that 
they would do anything wrong or that would be detrimental to the 
Government? 

Mr. Bowron. They are potentially more dangerous for the reason 
that you have no basis to form a suspicion. It is my belief and 
possibly not formed upon sufficient experience or information, that 
those who are potentially the most dangerous have seen to it that they 
have avoided suspicion by their conduct. 

I am, of course, not at liberty to quote my authority but I know 
that it is believed that the very fact that there has been or was not 
before the relocation of the Japanese, any individual acts of sabotage 
was indicative that the entire population was controlled directly, and 
the system was here for such direction through the various organiza- 
tions which interlocked, leading up to the consulate and fanning out to 
every man or woman or child on the truck farms, so that they could be 
readily reached and directed. And it is reasonable to believe that they 
were instructed that they should do nothing but just bide th^ir time 
until they received instructions so that whatever they did could he 
effective and en masse. 

Mr. Eberharter. Have the Japanese a peculiar quality insofar as 
gaining the confidence of their employer is concerned? 

Mr. Bowron. Yes, I believe that is true; and let me illustrate by 
our own experience in the city government. 

Tn a report of your own committee you will find that back in 1936 
I believe it was, an inquuy was made for detailed information 
relative to our water system through the Japanese consulate. After 
Pearl Harbor I thought that it was a good idea to find out how many 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTRITIES 8^93 

Ja panose we had, what thoy were doing and the character of their 
work and the availability of information of military value. 

We found that we had, as I recall, something over 40 employed— 
some in rather strategic positions. We had several in our civil-service 
department who could be of gi-eat assistance in not only the employ- 
ment of other Japanese, but in seeing that they were placed in a 
position where they could secure very valuable information. 

We found that we had a number of them in our department of water 
and power where they not only had available to them— I do not know 
and have no information, of com-se, whether they made use of theu* 
opportunity, but they had available to them not only all of the in- 
formation that had been requested through the consulate in 1936 
and which the chief engineer of the water depart.ment refused to give, 
but they could have sabotaged our entire electric distribution system 
in the city of Los Angeles. 

We found that they were located in various other departments and 
I called their immediate superiors together and suggested that it 
probably would be a good idea for the safety of the city and for the 
protection of the people in the community, to discontinue the work of 
these employees — all of them. 

I foiuid among very good Americans a resentment because these 
employee's were trusted employees. They had ingratiated themselves 
with then- superiors and they said: 

We can't discharge these men, they are some of the best, most faithful employees 
we have. 

I think it is generally true that the Japanese are good workers 
They give every appearance of faithfulness in theu' work, and having 
those qiuilities necessarily they are disarming. 

Air. Eberharter. Mayor, in spite of what happened at Pearl Har- 
bor, in spite of the history of the Japanese people, do you think that 
if they were thrown in contact with persons who had had no experience 
with them before, those persons would be more liable to succumb to 
the mannerisms and the ingratiating qualities of the Japanese and 
thereby tend to have more confidence in them than they should have? 
In other words we have had some testimony to the effect that many of 
the Caucasian people who are working in a supervisory capacity in 
some of the camps had no previous experience whatsoever with the 
Japanese people. Do you think that those supervisors would be more 
likely to be fooled, say, by the Japanese than those who have had some 
actual experience with them? 

Mr. BowRON. I think very decidedly they could bo easil}^ fooled 
and probabl}^ have been because we have been fooled right here in 
Los Angeles and been fooled for a great many years when we thought 
we knew them from our experience of constant association. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do \"ou thinlc any Japanese could be trusted? 
To trust him would be very much of a speculation even in isolated 
cases. 

Mr. BowRON. No; I don't believe that. I think that the big 
majority of them, if we only knew — if we could separate the sheep 
from the goats, I think that the big majority of them would be good 
American citizens, but I just chalh nge anybody to apply the test. 

Mr. Eberharter. Those who have had experience with the 
Japanese, vou feel, would not even be able to separate the good from 
the bad? 



8994 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. BowRON. That is ri2;ht. 

Mr. Eberharter. Let alone those who had no experience? 

Mr. BowRON. I think their experience and their philosophy has 
perfected* them in deceit and those that are the most dangerous are 
entirely disarming. 

Mr. Eberharter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt. 

Mr. Mundt. Did you say, Mayor Bowron, the F. B. I. never 
consulted you or the responsible heads of your departments about the 
possibility of releasing these men from these relocation centers before 
they were released? 

- Mr. Bowron. I cannot make that statement because I do not know. 
There is a very close working relationship between our police depart- 
ment and the F. B. I. They may have consulted the police depart- 
ment but if that was done they probably merely referred to police 
reports and went no further. 

Mr. Mundt. From your experience with the Japanese it seems to 
be indicated that even if the F. B. I. were to go further than the police 
department they would more or less be following blind alleys because 
the Japanese didn't do anything of an overt nature wliich they could 
look upon to detect their loyalty or disloyalty; isn't that right? 

Mt. Bowron. That is right, exactly. 

Mr. Mundt. We were told by some of the earlier witnesses that in 
the Boston project they thought — they weren't sure — but they thought 
that the F. B. I., perhaps, was checking into the background of these 
men before they were released. This committee expects to find out 
whether that is a reality or just a hope expressed by those witnesses. 
But even though it is a reality, would you feel that that is sufficient 
to clear a man. for release from the projects smiply because the F. B. I. 
said: 

We find nothing in our records to indicate disloyalty on the part of some 
specific Japanese. 

Mr. Bowron. I decidedly do not; and let me illustrate by again 
coming to some of our own employees. No investigation was made 
as to certain of those employees, I am sure, by anyone. We felt we 
had gone as far as we coiild when we separated them from their 
employment. 

Since the military acted- — and let me say that I feel that Lt. Gen. 
John L. DeWitt has performed a ver^ great service to the people of 
California and the Pacific coast by his timely and intelligent action. 
We were so relieved that we just dropped all investigation as soon as 
the Japanese were away and we went no further. 

But since that time much information has come to us about some 
of our employees that we didn't even suspect, which has convinced 
us that they were potentially very dangerous. 

Now, we haven't felt that it was necessary to pass on that informa- 
tion to the F. B. I. because we thought, naturally enough, the Japanese 
were in a position of security so far as the rest of the population was 
concerned, but had we been advised that there was any possibility of 
their being released and going about peaceful pui'suits among the 
civilian population, of course, we would have been verj glad to have 
supplied whatever information that we could dig up. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTWITIES 8995 

Mr. MuNDT. Do. you have in your files or in your mind the names 
of some specific Japanese who were formerly in the employ of the 
city and about whom you have subsequently received fau*ly unim- 
peachable information as to their disloyalty? 

Mr. BowRON. I don't think any information is "unimpeachable." 

Mr. MuNDT. Fairly accurate information. 

Mr. BowRON. Because we just can't afford to wait until we get 
information that would support a conviction, let us say, in a court 
of law when we are thinking of the safety of our population. 

Mr. MuNDT. Let me put the question another way: Do you have in 
your mind or in your hies the names of former Japanese employees 
upon whom you feel there is a considerable cloud of suspicion at the 
present time? 

Mr. BowRON. Yes, yes ; we have, 

Mr. MuNDT. I wonder if those names could be made available to the 
committee, either for public or private record as you prefer, so that 
our investigators might check up and see where they went from your 
employ and whether or not they have been released and if they have 
been released where they have gone. 

I feel we should get our procedure down as specificall}^ as we can 
because if we have a dangerous Japanese by the name of "Tojo," or 
whatever is a good Japanese name, we ought to be after the rascal now. 
Don't you agree with me? 

Mr. BowRON. Yes. I may say that we have been in rather close 
touch with Mr. Steedman. I think he knows practically everything 
that we do, but we would be glad to give to him, or directly to the 
committee, any additional information that we have. 

Mr. MuNDT. For example, I want to know^ whether any of those 
Japanese upon whom you feel there is a considerable suspicion are 
among those that the Army has been recruiting and putting in uniform. 

We now have a considerable number of Japanese in the Army. 
Some of them, as I understand, were recruited from the relocation 
centers and I think it would be interesting to know whether they are 
there or whether they are working out in the South Dakota beet 
patches, which interests me, or where they are. 

Mr. BowRON. Personally I think they would be a whole lot safer 
in the Army than they would be acting as domestics in private homes. 

Mr. MuNDT. That interests me. ^Y[ly do you think they would 
be safer in the Army and in uniform if they have a subversive back- 
ground? 

Mr. BowRON. Because they would be under discipline and under 
constant watch and under military command. 

Mr. MuNDT. How about during their off hours when thev are 
walking up and down the streets in a uniform? Wouldn't they have 
access to a lot of places that a civilian couldn't go? It seems to me 
they would be more dangroeus in the Army than out of it. 

Sir. BowRON. I just assume the militaiy would not permit that. 

Mr. MuNDT. Give them a little special treatment, you mean? 

Mr. BowRON. Yes. 

Mr. MuxDT. Well, I dislike very much to reply upon the Japanese 
forming any part of our Army. 

Mr. BowRON. I am not advocating it but I am just suggesting that 
I think it is veiy dangerous indeed to have these Japanese scattered 



8996 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

throughout the country where they can promote propaganda and 
where they can come in closer contact with enemy agents, if there be 
such, and supply them with information, and particularly so in the 
vicinity of production areas. 

Air. CosTELLO. Might I interrupt? In other words, it was your 
thought if the Japanese should be released from these camps for the 
purpose of working they should be assembled in large numbers in 
some segregated area where tbey could be watched in that area rather 
than scattered throughout, say, as domestics in homes and all over 
the country? 

Mr. BowRON. That would be my idea; my opinion. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The same situation then would apply to those in 
the Army where, as I understand it, the Japanese are being retained 
m separate units in the Army, and being in those large groups m 
the military organization if they were in some particular location 
their activities off the post could be watched more closely than if 
they were scattered likewise in the Arm}^, individually all through 
the Army? 

Mr. BowRON. Yes. And I realize that what I advocate is prob- 
ably an injustice to a big part of the Japanese because I really believe 
that the big majority of them are proper Americans, but the difficulty 
is, the big chance we are running in saying that this man can be relied 
upon because he has never proclaimed his loyalty to the Mikado — 
that is outwardly in such a way that we would .set him aside as a 
potentially dangerous Japanese. 

Mr. CosTELLO. When the Japanese were located here in California 
they were given complete access to all strategic installations such as 
pipe lines and oil fields and refineries and things of that kind. 

Mr. BowRON. I think the Japanese who lived in the Los Angeles 
metropolitan area knew infintely more about the physical facts than 
the average American citizen. 

Mr. CosTELLO. However, the number of Japanese elsewhere in 
the country was rather limited and for that reason they possibly have 
much less infor^nation conerning the country generally. However, 
don't you feel that by scattering the Japanese now throughout the 
country that that creates a great new field of strategic information 
available to the Japanese, particularly those who wish to obtain infor- 
mation for military purposes? 

Mr. BowRON. That would be my fear as just an ordinary citizen 
who knows nothing about the military value of their information or 
the means of transmitting it, but I do know that we are in a war and 
the object is to win it and not take any chances. 

Mr. CosTELLO. During peacetime when we had the Japanese 
consular agents throughout the State, there was a very close tie, was 
there not, between those consular agents and the Japanese people? 

Mr. BowRON. Very close. I know that of my own knowledge and 
from my own observation. And that close tie was not limited to the 
subjects of the Japanese Government but apparently it was just as 
close and just as direct with the second generation who were born 
here in California. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And all these Japanese societies and organizations 
had a very close affiliation with those consular officers, isn't that 
correct? 

Mr. BowRON. Very close. 



UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTRITIES 8997 

Mr. CosTELLO. In other words the local consul actually was the 
leading figure of the Japanese people in the community and exerted 
a very direct influence tlu-ough the societies and things of that Jvind 
over all the Japanese people here? 

Mr. BowRON. I cannot speak for other locations but that was true 
in the Los Angeles area. 

Mr. CosTELLO. From investigations the committee has previously 
made, it is indicated there is an extremely close tie between the 
consular agents and both the foreign-born and American-born 
Japanese. 

I wonder if it would be possible, Mayor, to make a direct check 
with the head of the police department subversive bureau, and par- 
ticularly with the department of water and power, to inquire whether 
any requests have come to those departments concerning indi\adual 
Japanese, concerning whom it was proposed to release from the relo- 
cation centers. 

Mr. BowRON. I shall be glad to do that. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You might send a letter to Mr. Steedman indicat- 
ing the response you receive from those departments. 

Mr. BowRON. Yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Any further questions by members of the com- 
mittee? 

Mr. AIuNDT. One other question. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt. 

Mr. MuNDT. I have received some letters and others have told me 
in conversations privately, that they have tried to do the thing that 
we have all tried to do with great futility so far, and that is to dis- 
tinguish between a loyal and disloyal Japanese. I quite agree with 
you the whole group probably is not bnd, but the difficulty is to find 
those who are. 

It has been suggested that the Clmstian Japanese can be counted 
upon for their loyalty whereas those who have maintained their 
aboriginal religions, which I think we know as Buddhism or Shintoism, 
would be more inclined to be disloyal. Is there anything in your 
experience which would either verify or disprove that theory? 

Mr. BowRON. No. As a matter of fact, those here whom we 
suspect the most profess the Christian religion. 

Mr. Mundt. That is all. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Mayor, I have one question I would like to 
ask before you conclude your testimony. 

I would like to direct your attention particularly to a Japanese 
known as Kiyoshi P. Okura, who was an examiner in the Civil 
Service Commission of Los Angeles. 

Is it your information that Kiyoshi P. Okura has been released 
from a relocation center? 

iSlr. BowRON. It is my information that he has been released and 
is now in a place where he is influencing the philosophy of the future 
citizens of this countiy, in an institution that cares for boys. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think it is a dangerous place for Mr. 
Okura to be? 

Mr. BowRON. I think it is very dangerous; possibly not immedi- 
ately for the pui-poses of the war but certainly we are not interested in 



8998 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

molding the thoughts of our future citizens along the lines that we 
believe his philosophy to be. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the War Relocation Authority communicate 
with you regarding the release of Mr. Okura? 

Mr. BowRON. I have had no communication from any source 
relative to him. My information was merely incidental and came to 
me from some friends of mine. 

Mr. Steedman. The reason for the question is that we have had 
assurances from the officials at the Relocation Center at Poston, 
that they conununicated with the former employers of all Japanese 
before releasing them. 

I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLo. We appreciate veiy much your having come before 
us this morning, Mayor. I do know you are quite busy and I want to 
thank you for your testimony. We believe it has been quite helpfid 
in giving us the general picture as to the local attitude toward the 
Japanese, and also your beliefs concerning the danger and the menace 
the Japanese might be if allowed to return to either the Pacific coast 
area or to be scattered even generally thi'oughout the country. 

We thank you very much. 

Mr. BowRON. And I thank you for this opportunity. 

Mr. CosTELLo. We will take a short recess. 

(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order. 

In view of the testimony which was presented to the committee just 
as the mayor was leaving, I think it might be well for Mr. Steedman 
to elaborate somewhat upon that information. For that reason I am 
going to ask Mr. Steedman to be sworn. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES H. STEEDMAN, INVESTIGATOR, SPECIAL 
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman, in the process of questioning Mayor 
Bowron, the matter of the employment of this man Okura came up. 

Do you Imow the name of the institution at which Okura is now 
employed? Have you received any definite information as to where 
he went from the relocation camp? 

Mr. Steedman. I haven't checked on that, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You personally do not know the name of the insti- 
tution? For the purposes of the record, it is my understanding that 
the school is Father Flannagan's Boys Town in Nebraska. 

I am quite sure that there won't be much opportunity for Mr. 
Okura to indulge in any subversive or un-American activities at Boys 
Town, and I am quite confident, and I am sure the people of the 
country realize that Father Flannagan conducts a very American 
institution there, and if any subversive activities were attempted 
Father Flannagan would know about it and immediately release Mr. 
Okura from his employment. 

You don't know what type of work he might be doing there, 
do .you? 

Mr. Steedman. No; I do not, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. I judge from the statement of the mayor that the 
War Relocation authorities did not consult with the mayor concerning 
Okura's background and, therefore, did not release that information 



UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8999 

to Father Flannagan at the time that he was released to him for 
em ploy 111 en t. 

Mr. Steedman. T believe that is the testimony of the mayor; yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. I wonder if you would read into the record the 
testimony before the Dies committee which has been previously 
printed, concerning Mr. Okura. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am reading from appendix VI, 
Report on Japanese Activities entitled "Hearings Before a Special 
Committee on Un-American iVctivities, House of Representatives, 
Seventy-Seventh Congress, lirst Session on House Resolution 282, 
page 1782: 

However, in the operation of their espionage system, the Japanese were not 
easily discouraged. Working through the Civil Service Commission, Japanese 
were able to infiltrate Japanese-Americans into the department of water and 
power. Kiyoshi P. Okura has for some time past been the chief examiner of the 
Los Angeles Civil Service Commission. He is the son of Momota Okura, who 
was the commandant of the Southern California Imperial Veterans Association 
(Japanese) and an adviser for the Central Japanese Association. Momota 
Okura was an alien Japanese, and being a Japanese war veteran, was under the 
jurisdiction of the Japanese Government. Momota Okura has been arrested by 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation and is now being detained. So much for the 
background of Kiyoshi P. Okura's father, Momota Okura. 

Kiyoshi P. Okura was a director of social relations in the Southern California 
Chamber of Commerce and Industry, a Japanese governmental agency. In his 
official position as chief examiner of the Los Angeles Civil Service Commission, 
he «'as helpful to Japanese-Americans desirous of obtaining positions with the 
Los Angeles city government, and this was especially true with reference to the 
Los Angeles City Water and Power Department. 

It is significant that prior to the Japanese consulate's request, only one Japanese- 
American was on the pay roll of the department of water and power in Los 
Angeles, uhereas subsequent to his request, 12 additional Japanese-Americans 
were placed on the pay roll of that department. A list of those employees, 
together with information as to residence, birthplace, birth date, class, status, 
division, and location, and length of service, is given below at the end of this 
subsection. 

While it is true that these Japanese-American employees of the department 
of water and power complied with the legal requirements of the civil service 
commission and they were the ones duly certified to the department of water and 
power when that branch of the city government requested technical help, inves- 
tigation has revealed that Kiyoshi P. Okura made it a point to help Japanese- 
Americans secure employment with the department of water and power. 

Since the committee's exposure of the number of Japanese employed in the 
department of water and power, the Honorable Fletcher T. Bowron, mayor of 
the city of Los Angeles, has taken prompt action and has suspended not only 
the 13 Japanese working in that department but all other Japanese employed by 
the city. The Board of Supervisors of Los Angeles County has taken similar 
action and has suspended all Japanese in the county's employ. 

That is the end of the quotation, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. MuNDT. I think we might also add for the record right there, 
as an indication of the possible far-reaching implications of releasing 
a man like Okura from the relocation center without providing his 
prospective employer with a full and faithful record of his past activi- 
ties, that it should be added that at this particular school where it is 
alleged he is located, he is close to one of the vital never centers of the 
defense industries of America, because Omaha is a great transportation 
center. It is near a tremendous development in aviation and is close 
to a number of power centers and power plants in Nebraska. 

The emphasis is the importance of protecting prospective em- 
ploj^ers by giving them, from the relocation centers, a complete report 
and it is highly unfortunate that those reports are not being made 
available now. 



9000 UN-AMERiaiN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

l\lv. CosTELLO. Mr. Stecdman, in view of the location of the city of 
L<os Angeles perhaps there is nothing more vital here than the supply 
of water and power, is that not correct? 

Mr. Steedman. That is my understanding; yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, being a semiarid comitry the city 
depends very largely upon its water supply which comes from a great 
distance. , 

Mr. Steedman. That is my information. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And these Japanese who had been employed by 
the department of water and power were therefore in a position to 
obtain very accurate and definite information as to the location of the 
dams, the city reservoirs, the aqueducts, as well as the power stations 
and the power lines leading from the sources of water supply mto the 
city of Los Angeles? 

Mr. Steedman. I believe the mayor so testified tliis morning, Mr. 
Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And those persons being in that particular agency 
of the city government had access to very accurate, detailed informa- 
tion concerning the most vital thing in southern California, namely, 
water and power supply to this great metropolitan area and if there 
was any desire to connnit sabotage that one vital thing would be the 
most practical thing to assault and if they were at all successful in 
destroying the supply of water to this city it would mean the stoppage 
of the industrial production that is now taking place here in tliis county 
am I correct? s^ 

Mr. Steedman. I thmk your statement is correct. I think in order 
to answer it fully it would be necessary to go into the job classifications 
of the Japanese who were employed m the city's department of water 
and power. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And that is published in a public document of the 
committee, is it not? 

Mr. Steedman. That is right; on page 1783 of appendix VI, the 
report from which I read a moment ago, on Japanese activities. 

IMr. CosTELLO. In view of the fact it is aheady published, I don't 
think it is necessary for us to incorporate it in this record, but it is 
yoiu" understanding that those Japanese were employed in veiy key 
positions which made very accurate and valuable information avail- 
able to them; is that not tiue? 

Mr. Steedman. I would sa}^ they had access to the various records 
compiled by the department of water and power. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Maps and so forth? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. In connection with their positions I will be 
glad to read into the record the job classifications if the committee 
would like to have that. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Mr. Steedman, do you have the date on which they 
were discharged from service, or were they all released from service at 
the same time? 

Mr. Steedman. I can't answer that question just at this time, Mr. 
Chairman. I am not prepared to give you that information. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The suggestion has been made that the list of names 
as tabulated in the former report be incorporated into this record. 
If there is no objection on the par< of the committee that table will 
be reproduced in the report at this point. 

(The public document referred to was made a part of the record by 
reference and is as follows:) 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



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9002 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you call your next witness? 

Mr. Steedman. The next witness is Mr. Jesse L. Elliott, who is the 
sheriff of Orange County. Orange County adjoins Los Angeles 
County on the south. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We are ver}?^ glad to have you with us, Mr. Elliott. 
Will you stand and be sworn. 

TESTIMONY OF JESSE L. ELLIOTT, SHERIFF OF ORANGE COUNTY, 

CALIF. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your name to the reporter, Mr. 
Elliott? 

Mr. Elliott. Jesse L. Elliott. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You may question the witness, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I requested Sheriff Elliott to come 
to Los Angeles this morning to give the committee the benefit of his 
testimony regarding the attitude of the citizens of Orange County 
toward the Japanese and what their reaction would be were the 
Japanese to return to the Pacific coast. 

I believe Sheriff Elliott has a statement he would like to make to 
the committee. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We are very happy to hear you, Sheriff, and ap- 
preciate any statement you feel would be appropriate. 

Mr. Elliott. Orange County, as you gentlemen know, is an agri- 
cultural section of the State. 

There were a number of Japanese people living in Orange County 
prior to the evacuation, being occupied mostly in agricultural pursuits 
and in the various phases of agriculture. 

The people of Orange County do not feel that they want the Japa- 
nese returned to their former homes or places occupied by them, par- 
ticularly during the existing emergency. 

I have conferred with a number of our citizens, old-time farmers as 
we would term them, and hi no uncertain way do the}^ express them- 
selves that they will not tolerate the return of the Japanese people 
during this emergency. 

I have conferred with many of the marines and soldiers who have 
had service in the south Pacific area and we are fearful if the Japanese 
are returned as to what will happen. 

Mr. Costello. You have a considerable number of returned ma- 
rines and soldiers who are located in Orange County? 

Mr. Elliott. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Costello. And you feel that their attitude toward all Japa- 
nese would be extremely hostile because of the things that the}^ wit- 
nessed in the course of warfare? 

Mr. Elliott. Yes; and the experiences that they have had. 

Mr. Costello. Would you care to state briefly some of those in- 
stances as they may have related them to you? 

Mr. Elliott. We have in Orange County many military place- 
ments at the present time. We have a large Marine Corps place- 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9003 

ment. There are many men there from the south Pacific sector being 
recontUtioned. 

Is this for the press now? • 

Mr. CosTELLO. At the moment it is on the record but if there is 
anything you feel should not be made public, we can direct it be off 
the record' and it will not be repeated. We have that understanding 
and assurance from all the press representatives here today. 

Mr. Elliott. The expression of the majority of these servicemen is: ^ 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have any of the men stated to you any particular 
instance in the south seas that led up to their expression of hostility 
toward the Japanese soldiers? 

Mr. Elliott. Yes; they have related what they have been tlirough; 
the experiences of having their buddies killed, blown to pieces beside 
them; the treatment received by their buddies when captured by the 
Japanese; the way they treated wounded men, and the general con- 
ditions existing over in the south Pacific-Guadalcanal and the other 
islands on which they have had service.^ 

Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think in view of the fact we have a 
large number of American boys who are prisoners of the Japanese, 
that the sheriff's statement about the Idlling of the Japanese should 
be off the record. It can do no good and might do harm. 

Mr. Elliott. "What we want to do is enforce the law. If we are 
going to protect the people who are held as hostages over there, it is 
necessary to protect these people here and we feel by returning them 
to the coastal area should something unfortunate happen to one of the 
Japanese people, no doubt retaliatory measures would immediately 
be taken on the other section of the front and that is the thing we are 
interested in. 

Mr. CosTELLO. In talking with some of these returned servicemen, 
3'ou find they verified the many stories that have been published from 
time to time regarding the treachery on the part of the Japanese? 

Mr. Elliott. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. For example, a wounded Japanese having a hand 
grenade under him and when they go to pick him up and bring him 
in, the hand grenade would discharge, and things of that character, 

Mr. Elliott. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have they told you of a large number of such 
instances? 

Mr. Elliott. They have. 

Mr. Cost]:llo. Have you any questions, Mr. Eberhartcr? 

Mr. Eberharter. No questions. 

Mr. Costello. Do you have any further statement you wish to 
make, Mr. Sheriff? 

Mr. Elliott. Not at this time, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I have another witness from Orang(> County whom 
I would like to have sworn next. His name is Mr. Frank C. Latham 
who is with the Farm Bureau of Orange County. 

Mr. Costello. Very well, Mr. Latham, will you'please stand and 
be sworn? 

s The expression of the servicemen ordered stricken from the record by Mi . Mundt. 



9004 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

TESTIMONY OF FRANK C. LATHAM, IMMEDIATE AND PAST 
PRESIDENT OF ORANGE COUNTY, CALIF., FARM BUREAU 

The witness was duly sworn by the chah-man. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your name for the record? 

\h\ Latham. Franlv C Latham. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And what is your occupation, Mr. Latham? 

Mr. Latham. I am a rancher — farmer, citrus grower rather, the 
immediate and past president of the Orange County Farm Bureau. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you proceed with your questions, Mr. Steed- 
man? 

Mr. Steedman. How many members does the Orange County 
Farm Bureau have among the ranchers, farmers, and orange growers 
in Orange County? 

Mr. Latham. At the present time we have about 1,740. 

Mr. Steedman. Was a large number of Japanese employed on the 
ranches and in various other agricultmal enterprises in Orange 
County prior to Pearl Harbor? 

Mr. Latham. No. A Japanese refuses to work for white people. 
They do their own farming and work for each other. 

Mr. Costello. That is in regard to agricultm-al activities? 

Mr. Latham. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. But they do work as domestics? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; but in agricidtural pm'suits they work among 
their own people. 

Mr. Steedman. What is the general attitude of the farmers and 
ranchers of Orange County toward the retm'n of the Japanese to 
the Pacific coast? 

Mr. Latham. The general opinion, with a very few and rare excep- 
tions, is that during this emergency it would be a big mistake to 
return them to the coast. 

Mr. Steedman. Are farming operations in Orange County con- 
tinuing as usual with the Japanese gone? 

Mr. Latham. Yes. I have here if you care for a copy of it, the 
acreage and the crops that were grown by the Japanese in Orange 
County; the amount of acreage that was owned by the Japanese, 
and I wish to say that that land is all being faiTned now. We are 
not growing some of the crops that they did. We are stressing the 
more essential crops. It is harder to get your strawberries and a 
few things like that than in the past but the land is being farmed and 
farmed efficiently — as efficiently as it can be with the present labor 
situation. 

Mr. Costello. The change in the type of crops is due, possibly, to a 
shortage of manpower and so you are' putting in crops that do not 
require as much labor, is that correct? 

Mr. Latham. That is correct; and also there are some crops that 
we list as nonessential to the war effort that we are discontinuing and 
we are trying to grow crops that are necessary to help win the war. 

Mr. Steedman. It is your opmion that the people of Orange 
County do not want the Japanese returned to that locality? 

Mr. Latham. I know very definitely that they will not allow them 
to be their neighbors like they were in the past during this emergency. 
There are too many of them that have boys who are in the service. 

Mr. Steedman. And it is your belief their return would complicate 
law enforcement? 



riS'-AMERICAN PROPAGAXDA ACTIMTIES 9005 

Mr. Latham. Very definitelj\ 

Mr. Steedman. I have no fuvthcr questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have llic statement you referred to? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; I have a statement. I wish to clarify this 
statement. This was taken shortly after Pearl Harbor and some of 
these crops and acreages may be off one way or the other. We found 
when we were takmg this inventory that the Japanese were such liars 
you could not depend on them. This gives the number of acres that 
are owned. The Japanese in Orange Count}^ are mostly just small 
farmers; it would be a family unit or two or three families and that is 
eciuall}^ true regarding acreage that they leased and also the acreage 
that they owned. There were no large holdmgs. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you discussed with any of the white Ameri- 
cans who have taken over the lands formerly farmed by the Japanese, 
the manner in which such transfers was accomplished? 

Mr. Latham. Yes, sir; I have. I was veiy much interested in 
that at the time and the Japanese got the best of the deal. 
■ ^Ir. Steedman. Did they misrepresent the condition of the soil? 

Mr. Latham. That is true. 

Mr. Steedman. Did they misrepresent to those acquiring the land 
from them that growing crops had been properly fertilized wdien such 
was not the fact? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; there were very few of the crops that were 
fertilized during the year of 1942 — that is spring fertilizer. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese assure the white Americans who 
bought these places that the lands had been fertilized? 

Mr. Latham. In some cases they did — that is true. 

Mr. Steedman. Has that been reported to you? 

Mr. Latham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were there any Japanese members of the Farm 
Bureau? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; we had a small membership in the Farm 
Bureau. I think there were 30 or 40 or something like that. We 
gave them quite a bit of service— that is personal service. We were 
ti-ying to help them on their labor situation. They were always low 
on the price that they would pay labor. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did the Farm Bureau solicit those memberships or 
did they sort of push themselves into the organization? 

Mr. Latham. They were solicited in most cases. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did they make, apparently, good cooperative farmers 
or did they form a clique or bloc within the organization? 

Mr. Latham. No. They took very little part in the activities of 
the Farm Bureau while obtaining a good many services that the 
Farm Bureau provides. 

Mr. MuNDT. What is the nature of the arrangement which has 
been made with the Japanese owners by the white farmer? Have 
they bought the Japanese farms in each case or do they rent them 
from the Japanese? 

Mr. Latham. The Japanese refused to sell. In fact, the last few 
days or the last month before the Japanese left Orange County, they 
bought as much acreage as they possibly could. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The Japanese aclualiy increased their holdings at 
the time they were being evacuated? 

GJGJG — 43- vol. 15 12 



9006 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Latham. That is correct. In the months of March and April 
of 1942 they increased their holdmgs wherever they could, in Orange 
County. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is that indicated on the statement that you have? 

Mr. Latham. No. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The statement would be indicative of the holdings 
of Japanese prior to Pearl Harbor? 

Mr. Latham. That statement is the acreage which was taken 
immediately after the Japanese were evacuated. 

Mr. Costello. Would that indicate the increased buyings on the 
part of the Japanese? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; that is true. Now, that acreage, I would say, 
is possibly 95 percent accurate. There have been a few changes. 

Mr. Costello. The statement indicates that 10,000 acres were 
farmed by the Japanese? 

Mr. Latham. That is true. 

Mr. Costello. And of that amount 1,175 acres were actually 
owned by the Japanese? 

Mr. Latham. Yes, sir; that is true. 

Mr. Costello. What percentage of that Japanese-owned acreage 
was purchased during the last few months or few weeks before 
evacuation? 

Mr. Latham. I would be unable to answer that accurately, but they 
purchased wherever they were able to. 

Mr. Costello. If they had the funds they immediately endeavored 
to acquire title to the property? 

Mr. Latham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. Has any of this Japanese-owned land been sold that 
you know of? 

Mr. Latham. I am under the nnpression that the Excelsior Ranch 
Co. bought one piece. 

Mr. Costello. Other than that you know of no other? 

Mr. Latham. I don't laiow of any other. I know of people who 
have written to them asldng if they would sell or place it on the 
market but they have been unable to buy any. We have had very 
poor cooperation with them as far as their farm implements go. 

Mr. Costello. Did they have a large amount of farm machinery? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; there was a large amount of farm implements 
and they were asked to sell their lease and in most cases they even 
refused to answer the correspondence and where they did they ab- 
solutely refused. 

I have a fairly accurate list of the machinery here. I would kind 
of like to keep it due to the fact that we have a law now that we will 
be able to acquire title to this farm machinery. 

Mr. MuNDT. A State law? 

Air. Latham. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Can you briefly tell for the record the provisions of 
that law? I am not familiar with it.' 

Mr. Latham. Well, the procedure is the Japanese will be contacted 
and asked if he will sell at a fair price. Now, that price will be 
through an appraisal board. If he doesn't answer that communica- 
tion the U. S. D. A. War Board will have the authority to acquire 
that machinery through legal procedure. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9007 

Mr. CosTKLLO. And that wilJ be throiiirli the process of eminent 
domniii in the name of the State? 

Mr. Latham. Yes, and sell it. Now, the sales of that wdll be made 
upon the n(>ed. In other words the farnuM- purchasino' it will have to 
show need for it before he will be allowed to purchase it. 

Mr. CosTELLo. The title to the farm implements would be acquired 
by the State and then subsequently sold by the State to the farmers? 

Mr. Latham. That is correct. 

Mr. CosTf:LLO. Where is this farm machinery stored at the present 
time? 

Mr. Latham. In various places. 

Air. CosTELLO. No one spot? 

Mr. Lathaivi. On different ranches throughout the country. 

Mr. MuNDT. Big machinery like trucks and tractors? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; there are many heavy tractors and lots of small 
truck gardening tractors. 

Mr. Eberharter. Would it take much time to read that? 

Mr. Costello. How long is the statement regarding the machinery? 

Mr. Latham. It is quite long. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just read it as far as it applies to the bigger machinery 
like trucks and tractors and motor-driven machinery. 

Mr. Latham. On one ranch just west of Santa Ana, about 3 miles, 
one International tractor, one Oliver road tractor 

Mr. MuNDT. You don't have those totaled, do you, by classifica- 
tion? 

Air. Latham. But this gives a complete list of all the farming 
equipment. 

Mr. Costello. But it has not been totaled? 

Mr. Latham. No. We have here the different tractors and so 
forth. 

Mr. Costello. I mean do you have the total number? 

Mr. Latham. No. 

Mr. Muxdt. Let me ask you a question about this law. Is this a 
new law? 

Mr. Latham. That is a new law that was passed dm-ing the last 
session of the legislature. 

Mr. MuNDT. Have any of the constitutional lawyers of California 
expressed some skepticism of the constitutionality of a law like that 
or do they seem to be fahly well agreed it is gomg to be okay? 

Mr. Latham. The attorney general 

Mr. Costello. It is my miderstanding that the Governor signed 
that bill. 

Mr. Latham. That is correct; the Governor signed it. 

Mr. Costello. And the Governor was previously the attorney 
general of the State? 

Mr. Latham. Yes. And the attorney general is working with the 
district attorneys in the various counties so there will be a uniform 
procedure throughout the State in acquiring this machineiy. 

Mr. Costello. And it would be your behef the Governor would 
not have signed the bill, in view of his legal background, unless he felt 
reasonably sure the law would be constitutional? 

Mr. Latham. That is my opinion; yes, sir. 



9008 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Regarding the leases of acreage by the Japanese: 
Are those long-term leases? Do they run over a period of 2 or 3 years 
from the time of evacuation? 

Mr. Latham. You mean the leases of the farmers that have taken 
over the Japanese lands? 

Mr. CosTELLO. No; the leases which the Japanese themselves held. 

Mr. Latham. Most of their leases were long-time leases, but they 
were quitclaimed at the time the Japanese left. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The leases were actually turned over to other 
persons? 

Mr. Latham. Either to other persons or turned back to the owner 
of the land. 

Mr. CosTELLO. So that the Japs do not continue to hold leased land 
and keep it out of production in any way? 

Mr. Latham. No; the Japs, to the best of my knowledge, have no 
leases in Orange County at the present time. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And the land which they own and which they 
refuse to sell, have they made leases of their lands to white farmers? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; to white farmers or Mexicans. The land is 
being farmed — the land that was sold to the Japanese. 

Mr. CosTELLO. So that all the 10,000 acres formerly farmed by the 
Japanese are still being cultivated? 

Mr. Latham. Yes; all except what the United- States Government 
has taken over for military purposes. 

Mr. CosTELLo. If there is no objection, the statement regarding the 
Japanese farmmg in Orange County will be received as an exhibit 
and made a part of the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Latham Exhibit No. 1".) 

Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Latham, what would you say as to agri- 
cultural production this year without the Japanese as compared with 
what it was when the Japanese were there? 

Mr. Latham. I would say in our essential crops that it will.be 
greater; that is, the acreage will be gi'eater. 

Mr. Eberharter. What will be the final result? Will there be 
more essential crops produced without the Japanese than if they were 
here? 

Mr. Latham. I will answer that in this way: Some of the acreage 
that was in nonessential crops is in essential crops now and I believe 
it would be reasonable to assume that there will be more produced. 

Mr. Eberharter. You say in many instances the Japanese farmers 
did not fertilize their land in 1942. Was that unusual? 

Mr. Latham. That was very miusual. 

Mr. Eberharter. When does the fertilizing usually take place? 

Mr. Latham. I might say in order to give you a little background 
on that, they raise several crops a year. As soon as one crop is 
harvested another is immediately planted, so fertilizing is a continuous 
program throughout the year with each crop, but commercial fertilizers 
are generally applied in the spring^ — Januaiy, February, and March. 

Thev were unable to obtain credit in 1942 due to the fact that the 

%j 

people that controlled the credit felt that they would be evacuated. 

Mr. Eberharter. In 1942? 

Mr, Latham. Yes; 1942, and they were unable to obtain credit 
to purchase the fertilizer. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9009 

Mr. Eberhartku. That is all. 

Mr. Steedmax. I have one question. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Stoodman. 

Mr. SiEEDMAN. Has the farm machinery which belonged to the 
Japanese Ijeen prop(>rly cared for since their evacuation? 

Mr. Latham. In some cases it has been stored in good sliape. In 
other cases it has just been run up in the corner and weeds are higher 
than the tractors. There are many of the tractors that the motors 
are frozen on. 

Mr. Steedman. Has there been considerable deterioration in the 
automotive equipment that was formerly used by the Japanese? 

Mr. [jAtham. That is correct. There are a good many of the trucks 
and cars that they own that the tires were allowed to deteriorate on. 

Mr. Steedman. Some of them are setting out in the weather? 

Mr. Latham. Yes. sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do I understand that a native Californian like you is 
saying it is cold enough out here to freeze the motors of a lot of 
tractors during the winter time? 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is entirely off the record. 

Mr. ^^luNDT. That is really news. 

Mr. Latham. I don't happen to be a native but I know the differ- 
. ence between the two freezings. 

Mr. CosTELLO. "California freezes" are veiy temporary things. 
They don't last but a short time? 

^I^. Latham. That is correct. They last just a few hours. 

Mr. MuNDT. Very unusual. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate, Mr. Latham and Mr. Elliott, your 
coming up from Orange County. We appreciate it is quite a trip and 
we feel your testimony will be helpful. 

Mr. Elliott. And thank you for the opportunity to come up here. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We will take a 5-minute recess at this time. 

(Thereupon a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order. 

Will you call the next witness, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Wickersham is our next witness. He is the 
chief warehouseman at Poston Center. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Will you please stand and be sworn. 

TESTIMONY OF ERNEST S. WICKERSHAM, CHIEF WAREHOUSE- 
MAN, COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION PROJECT, POSTON, 
ARIZ. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your name for the record and your 
occupation? 

Mr. Wickersham. Ernest S. Wickersham; chief warehouseman at 
Poston. Ariz. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you proceed with the uiterrogation of the 
■ witiu'ss. Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. What is your present address at Poston? 

Mr. Wickersham. Do you mean my personal address? 

'Sir. Steedman. Yes; your personal address. 

^fr. Wickersham. Parker. Ariz., box 1633. 



9010 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Do you live inside the center at Poston or in the 
town of Parker? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I live in Parker. 

Mr. Steedman. Where do you live, Mr. Wickersham? 

Mr. Wickersham. I live in what they call Silver City irrigation 
headquarters at Parker. 

Mr. Steedman. And you travel back and forth by automobile 
every day to the center? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Steedman. Where wiere you born, Mr. Wickersham? 

Mr. Wickersham. Bowie, Ariz. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Mr. Wickersham. I will have to do some figuring; 56 years ago. 

Mr. Eberharter. What is your birthday? 

Mr. Wickersham. April 15. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the United States Arm^'^? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Ml. Wickersham. From, I thinlv it was June 6, 1916, to, I think, 
back in 1919. Just about 6 days less than 3 years. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you serve overseas? 

Air. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you a member of any organizations? 

Mr. Wickersham. The American Legion. 

Mr. Steedman. W^ill you state briefly for the committee what your 
educational training has been? 

Ml . Wickersham. Most of my schooling was in Los Angeles up to 
about the tenth grade. 

Mr. Steedman. You attended school to the tenth grade? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What type of work have you been engaged in 
during your life? 

Mr. Wickersham. Cattle business, banking mostly, wholesale 
grocery. 

Mr. Steedman. Where have you lived during your life? 

Mr. Wickersham. I spent most of- my life in Safford, Ariz. 

Mr. Steedman. When did you take your present position at the 
Poston Center? 

Mr. Wickersham. April 8, a year ago. 

Mr. Steedman. April 8, 1942? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And that was just after the project went under 
the jurisdiction of the War Relocation Authorit}'^, is that correct? 

Mr. Wickersham. Well, the project wasn't completed at that time. 

Mr. Steedman. But it was imder the jurisdiction of the W. R. A? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Prior to going to Poston had you had any Govern- 
ment experience? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Where? 

Mr. Wickersham. Worked for the Soil Conservation Service at 
Safford and was -ransf erred from there to the Indian Service. 

Mr. Steedman. When did you first go to work for the Soil Conserva- 
tion Service? 



I 



UN-AAIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9011 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I think it was about 8 years ajjo. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you been working for the Government 
continuously since that time? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What was your starting salary with the Soil Con- 
servation Service? 
• Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think it was $1,800. 

Mr. Steedman. What was your title at that time? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Principal clerk. 

Mr. Steedman. And were you stationed at SafFord, Ariz? 

Mr. W^ickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And you were later transferred to the Indian 
Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. When were you transferred? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't remember the exact date. It was when 
the reorganization took place. 

Mr. Steedman. Can you give us the approximate date? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. July about — I don't remember the exact date. 
It was when the relocation took place — when the Indian Service took 
over so many of the Soil Conservation employees. 

Mr. Steedman. WTiat type of work were you engaged in while 
with the Indian Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Warehousing. 

Mr. Steedman. And what was 3^our starting salary with the 
Indian Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. $1,800. 

Mr. Steedman. And how long were you employed by the Indian 
Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. About 4 years, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you resign from the Indian Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Air. Steedman. W^ere you transferred? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did vou transfer from the Indian Service over to 
the W. R. A.? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. \Miat was your salary with the Indian Service at 
the time you transferred to the W. R. A.? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. $1,800. 

Mr. Steedman. What was your starting salary with the W. R. A.? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. $2,600. 

Mr. Steedman. What is your present salary? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I iiieaii $2,900. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlien you went from the Indian Service to the 
W. R. A. your salary was increased from $1,800 a year to $2,900 
a year? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. I only been at $1,800 for 7 months. 
Prior to that it was $2,300. 

Mr. Steedman. You had a reduction in salary? 

Mr. W^ickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Back to $1,800? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. And then when I went — — 

Mr. Steedman. Wlien you went with the W. R. A. your salary was 
increased to $2,900? 



9012 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Were your duties more important to the W. R. A. 
than they were in the Indian Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. More responsibihty? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. Only had one warehouse in the Indian 
Service and I have got 90 with the W. R. A. 

Mr. Steedman. What are your duties and responsibiUties at 
Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I am receiving agent for all sup2)lies that are 
shipped into the war relocation project. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the responsibility of supervising the 
Caucasian employees? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; in the warehouse department. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the responsibility of supervising the 
Japanese employees? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlio is your immediate superior? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Mr. Fred M. Haverland, transportation and 
supply officer. 

Mr. Steedman. And his immediate superior is Mr. A. W. Empie, 
is that correct? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Y"es, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Caucasian employees are working for 
you? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Scveu. 

Mr. Steedman. Then 8 Caucasian employees supervise, I believe 
you said, 90 warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. How many Japanese employees are working under 
you in the warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. At the present I have 42. I have had as high 
as 130. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you able to accomplish as much with the 42 
as you were with 130? 

Mr, WiCKERSHAM. Not quite. 

Mr. Steedman. How does it happen that you have only 42 at the 
present time? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I couldii't answer that. Just doesn't seem to 
be available. I think it is due to the fact that the majority of the 
workers have went to the net factories. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you requested the Employment Office to 
send you additional employees? 

Mr. IWiCKERSHAM. Numcrous times. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had aay success? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese like to work in the warehouse? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think they do. 

Mr. Steedman. Had you had any actual experience working Japa- 
nese prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Had you lived in any communities where Japanese 
resided? 

Mr. Wt<~'kersham. I spent vacations where they resided. 



UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9013 

« 

Mr. Steedman. Whore? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Twontv-five milVs out of Frosno at Orange 
Cove. 

Mr. Steedman. You had seen some Japanese prior to going to 
Post on? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you speak the Japanese language? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Didn't you say you went to school in Los Angeles? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yos, sir. 

Mr. MiTNDT. Until the tenth grade? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were there Japanese in Los Angeles at that time? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Some at the Polyteclmic High School when I 
went there. 

Mr. MuNDT. Some of them attended the same school you attended? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had any trouble with the Japanese under 
3'our supervision in the warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. 1 wouldu't call it trouble-; I would say there is 
friction. 

Mr. Steedman. Between you and the Japanese employees? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please explain to the committee the nature 
of the friction? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, wdien I would tell them to do something 
they would tell me that they didn't do that. I will give you just 
exactly how it happened. 

At the Parker warehouses at the railhead, we had 41 cars on the 
track to unload, including steel, cement, lumber, subsistence — in fact 
everything. 

I had about 60 Japanese there so I told the foreman to put a crew 
to unloading steel. He said: "We don't unload that damn junk." 

I said: "All right, go unload lumber." 

He said: "No; we unloaded lumber yesterday." 

I said: "All right, go imload cement." 

He said: "We don't unload cement." 

Mr. MuNDT. Then what happened? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Nothing. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese return to the project following 
that? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What did they do? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Just sat around and finally decided to do some- 
thing that they wanted to do. 

Mr. Steedman. Were they paid for the time they were sittmg 
around? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I assumc they were. 

Mr. Steedman. Ai'e you in charge of making up the pay rolls for 
the employees at the warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. It is under my supervision; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you approve the hourly pay for these workers 
who refused to w^ork? 



9014 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

' Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes. They didn't absolutely quit all day. 

They sat around and talked for awhile and then picked out the job 

they wanted to do and proceeded to do it. 

Iff* Mr. Steedman. They wanted to select the type of work that they 

did? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that the condition generally at Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, all I can speak about is my own depart- 
ment. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that generally true in your department? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir; that is true. 

Mr. Steedman. That is the situation that exists generally in your 
department? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. It is difficult to secure the cooperation of the 
Japanese? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliy is that true? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, I couldn't tell you the reason. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it due to a lack of discipline on the part of the 
project administration? 

fpMr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, it might be — it might be due to a mis- 
understanding upon the part of the Japanese. They seem to think 
all they have to handle is subsistence ; anything that is not subsistence 
they think somebody else should handle. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words, all they want to handle is their 
own food? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Arid sanitary service, is that correct? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is the conclusion I have arrived at. 

Mr. Steedman. In connection with your supervision of the ware- 
houses, have you had any personal difficulty with any of the Japanese? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Do you mean physical? 

Mr. Steedman. Any physical encounters? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have the Japanese threatened you at any time? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Oh, they muttered threats and that is about all. 

Mr. Steedman. What type of tlu-eats? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Oil, I have had a habit of smoking a cigar all the 
time and they said they were going to ram a cigar down my thi'oat. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the occasion for these threats? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We happened to get in a load of lumber that 
day and they were not stacking it the way they should and I went out 
to correct them and one of them made the remark that, "That was all 
damn foolishness." I told him it didn't make any difference whether 
it was damn foolishness or not, that I wanted it stacked my way and 
he made the remark to the other Japs that, "Some day he would ram a 
cigar down my tlu-oat." 

Mr. Steedman. Was that the only mstance of threats having been 
made to you or about you by the Japanese? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is the only one that I actually know 
about — that I heard. 

Mr. MuNDT. Have you ever had a Jap at any time lay a hand on 
you physically? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9015 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Have they ever tlu-own anything at you? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sn\ 

Mr. MuNDT. Have you laid hand on a Japanese, physically? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Xo, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. "What happened at the railhead when they wouldn't 
unload steel and wouldn't unload hunlx^r and wouldn't unload cement 
and they sat down? What did you do? Did you go to them and 
try individually to urge them to do the work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I only spoke to the foreman of the crew. 

Mr. MuNDT. How long did they engage in the sit-down strike? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Fi'om 20 to 30 minutes. 

Mr. MuNDT. During that interval you were talking to the foreman? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; the foreman walked off and I went on 
about my business. 

Mr. ^iuNDT. But of their own volition they gradually started 
to work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir, 

Mr. MuxDT. "What was the nature of the work they undertook 
there? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. They were unloading some subsistence. I don't 
recall just exactly what they unloaded. 

Mr. MuNDT. And that is not an isolated case; that happened several 
times in your department? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; it happened several times. 

Mr. MrxDT. Have you ever tried telling those fellows, ''Either 
you are gomg to unload steel or else you are going to get off the pay 
roll"? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I haven't because I didn't figure that 
was my part of the job. I report the happenings to my superior and 
what action he took I don't laiow. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did he ever tell them that? 

Mi; WiCKERSHAM. Not that I know of; no, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you think it is good policy to determine what 
kind of stuff thev are going to unload and what they are not gouig 
to do? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No;Idonot. 

Mr. MuxDT. Have you so advised your superior? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. And that is as far as you can go with your authority? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is as far as I can go. 

^Ir. MrxDT. Have you advised him of this in writing? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever receive a written reply? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM.'^ I dou't recall that I did. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe there is a warehouse at the railliead at 
Parker, is that correct? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir; we have six of theni. 

Mr. vSteedman. And in those warehouses material belonging to the 
center is stored? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Everj'thing. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had so much trouble with the Japanese 
at the warehouse at Parker that you had to substitute Indians for the 
Japanese? 



9016 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Are Indians handling the material going into the 
warehouses at Parker in an efficient manner? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes,' sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And you are not having any trouble with the 
Indians? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have any goods or materials been lost in transit 
from Parker to Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat is yom* estimate of the amount of material 
that has been lost? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. One crate of oranges but that wasn't by a 
Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. How was the crate of oranges lost? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. One of the Indian drivers took that. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he take it without permission? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What action was taken against him? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. He was tried before the justice of the peace and 
fined $50. 

Mr. Steedman. There have been no other losses of goods between 
Parker and Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Steedman. What is stored in the warehouses at Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. What is stored in the warehouses at Poston? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. May I answer it this way? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

!Mr. WiCKERSHAM. You take a town of say 20,000 people and what 
is required to run those 20,000 people, the small articles are stored in 
the warehouses — toilet paper, subsistence, pencils, books — everything. 

Mr. STEEP'^\N. Is furniture stored in the warehouses? * 

Mr. WiCKK SHAM. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What type of furniture? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Japanese household furniture and also furniture 
for personnel quarters and office furniture. 

Mr. Steedman. Is furniture stored there for the. personnel quarters 
that are being built at the present time? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; not at the present time. 

Mr. SiEEDMAN. Are any refrigerators stored in the warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We have some, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Frigidaires? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think there are some Frigidaires — all types. 

Mr. Steedman. There are all types of electric refrigerators stored 
in the warehouses at Parker? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do they belong to the Japanese? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. To whom do they belong? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. In the Japanese household goods departments 
there are some refrigerators. 

Mr. Steedman. Has the project pm-chased any furniture for the 
homes of the white personnel at the project? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9017 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Do you mean the now homes that have been 
buUt? ^ 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Tlicre hasn't any come fti yet. 

Mr. Steedman. Has tiic project recently purchased rugs or 
carpets? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sh". 

Mr. Steedman. Have any shipments of furniture been received 
from Barker Bros, of Los Angeles in the last 3 or 4 months? 

(No answer.) 

^Ir. Steedman. Barker Bros, fiuiiituro store here in Los Angeles? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't recall any. 

Mr. Mundt. Would your records show all receipts into the ware- 
houses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; and all issues. 

Mr. Mundt. Did you receive a carload of groceries from the Heart 
Mountain project? 

Mr. AViCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. About when? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. About 3 weeks ago, I think it would be. 

Mr. Mundt. That would be in May? 

Mr. WicKERHSAM. Ycs, sn; I have the date here somewhere— 28th 
of last month. 

Mr. Mundt. 28th of May? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. Do you want the car number? 

Mr. Mundt. Yes. 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. P. F. E. 42844. 

Mr. Mundt. I would like to go back for just a minute to the reports 
you made to your superior about the sit-down strike at the rail head. 

To whom were those reports made? What was the name of the 
superior officer? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That was to Mr. Townsend. 

Mr. Mundt. Have you ever made any similar reports to his suc- 
cessor. Mr. Potter? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No; excuse me. The first one was to Mr. 
Potter and the second one was to Mr. Townsend. 

Mr. Mundt. Did Potter follow Townsend? 

Mr. Steedman. Potter was the original chief of supply and trans- 
portation and Mr. Townsend was the second and the present 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Mr. Haverland. 

Mr. Mundt. Have you had occasion to make any such reports to 
Mr. Haverland? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; but we don't have the Japs up at 
Parker now. 

Mr. Mundt. You quit using them altogether? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. How long did you work under Mr. Townsend? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Just the short time lie was there. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how long lie was there? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Townsend attempt to do anything about 
disciplining the Japanese who refused to work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. If he did I never saw any effects of it. 



9018 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Did he ask you to tighten up on discipline in the 
warehouses? 

Mr, WiCKERSHAM. I don't recall that he did. 
. Mr. Steedman. Wliat kind of system do you have for keeping 
records in the warehouse? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We have the regular Indian Service system — 
store cards which is a perpetual inventory. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that system satisfactory? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you able to keep accurate records with the 
Indian Service system of accoimting for the warehouse? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs ; fau'ly so. I was taking mto 'consideration 
the type — that is taking into consideration the type of employees we 
have got. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you referring now to the Caucasian employees 
or to the Japanese employees? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No. The Japanese do all the clerical work; the 
Caucasians are only supervisors. 

Mr. Steedman. The implication of your reply is that you are de- 
pendent upon the Japanese to keep up with the details of what is in 
the warehouses, is that correct? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes; under our supervision. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you feel you can trust the Japanese to maintain 
the records in an honest manner? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Some of them. 

Mr. Steedman. Not all of them? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there any record of any articles or materials or 
goods, or anything of any nature whatsoever being removed from the 
warehouses by the Japanese in an unauthorized manner? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you please state to the committee just what 
was removed? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. It is impossible to do that because there are 
numerous little items and the written reports have all been submitted 
to the Department heads. 

For instance, there will be little pieces of fly screen and push switches 
outlet boxes — small things that they can use in fixing up theh* quar- 
ters, and also stuff they can eat. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you say things they can eat? 

Mr. WiCKERSiiAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Food? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, such as pineapple juice and food that they 
don't have to cook; oranges and apples and cheese. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you kept records of the amount of materials, 
that have been stolen from the warehouses at Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Only in memorandums in reporting them to the 
division head. 

Mr. Steedman. Then your records do not indicate the amount of 
missing material from the warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. You mean in dollars and cents? 

Mr. Steedman. Dollars and cents; yes. 

Mr. WiCKERSMAH. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever submitted a statement to your 
superiors as to the amount of material that you thought was missing? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9019 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. That you determined was missing daily from the 
warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You have never made any statement that you 
thought about $100 per day was missing from the warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any record of the Japanese truck 
drivers attempting to steal mattresses from the Government? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I have no record of it. 

Mr. Steedman. How often have you ordered an inventory of the 
warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is continuous, my system is. WTien post- 
mg or deducting an article I will instruct the supervisor to take that 
amount and go out and check what is in the warehouse. 

Mr. Steedman. Has that always been the system employed at 
Poston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And at Parker? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Since the inception of the project? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. How often do you audit that system to see whether 
it is working accurately or not? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, since we began there hasn't been any 
real audit of it, but that is going on all the time in all three camps. 
We just pick out a card at random and have it checked and then we 
will go to camp 2 and do the same thing and at camp 3, or m my 
inspection I count the number of articles and go back and check the 
card. 

Mr. MuNDT. You have never had an over-all audit of the entire 
warehouses? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; we have had a partial audit by two 
investigators, going way back to the time at the beginning, and they 
had all the records and all the receipts at their disposal. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did they find anj^ discrepancies? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; not m our records. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were those auditors of the Indian Service? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; they were auditors — they were investi- 
gators. 

Mr. MuNDT. From where? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think they were from G-2. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you report on the condition of the inventory 
to Mr. Townsend during the time he was handling the project? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Report on an inventoiy? Why? 

Mr. Steedman. Did you keep him advised as to what you had in 
the warehouses while he was at the project? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No one ever submitted an inventory; he never 
asked for it. 

Mr. Steedman. "V\Tiat kind of reports do you su]>mit to your 
immediate superior regarding the condition of the warehouses and 
the amount of material and goods stored in them? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. To my immediate superior? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 



9020 UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Wickers HAM. There is none except all the papers we prepare 
flow to the main office. The only time we submit an inventory is 
when they ask for it — a special inventory of certain items or all the 
items when they ask for it. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, we introduced in the record yester- 
day a memorandum dated December 16, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W. 
Empie from H. H. Townsend. I would like to quote today from that 
memorandum which has already been received in the record. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Very well. 

Mr. Steedman. I quote: 

In the first pLace an inventory cannot be accurately expected from employees 
within the warehouse where we know that more than $100 a day is being mis- 
appropriated. 

That statement was made by Mr. Townsend in a memorandum to 
Mr. Empie, dated December 16, 1942. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Townsend receive that information from 
you? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how Mr. Townsend obtained that 
information? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Townsend discuss that loss with you? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You never discussed the loss of Government mate- 
rial from the warehouses with Mr. H. H. Townsend? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you discuss the loss of material from Govern- 
ment warehouses with any other project official? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs; with Mr. Potter and Mr. Haverland and 
Mr. Empie. 

Mr. Steedman. But never with Mr. Townsend? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. That question was never brought up? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to quote agam from this memoran- 
dum: 

It is now being generally discussed among the Japanese warehouse people thai 
they will be able to cover up their records and in many instances they have already 
discussed the matter of hiding out various types of supplies and equipment so 
that they could not be compelled to show them on their inventory. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that statement is correct? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; it is not. 

Mr. Steedman. It is an mcorrect statement? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Where do you think Mr. Townsend received his 
information? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I dou't know, sir. I don't know where he 
would — how he would arrive, the first place, at the value of the stuff 

Mr. Steedman. He could arrive at an approximate value, couldn't 
he? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. It would have been very difficult unless he 
knew just exactly what was stolen and the cost of it. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there any way you have to ascertain the amount 
of material that has been improperly removed from the Goveinment 
warehouses at Poston? 



UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9021 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. By checking our perpetual inventory and taking 
a phj'sical check. 

Mr. Steedman. But that has not been done? 
; Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it customary to take an inventory of Govern- 
ment property once a year? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Then why hasn't that been done at Boston? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I doii't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. Head instructed you to take an inventory? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Instructions were issued when Mr. Townsend 
was there. I think what prevented it was the distm'bance and that 
came on shortly afterward. 

Mr. Steedman. You are referring to the so-called strike or riot; 
is that correct? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Distm'bance. 

Mr. Steedman. That was during November of 1942? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that a strike? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't know — I don't think — I don't know 
what it was. 

Mr. MuNDT. I can't hear you. 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't know^ what it was. You see here is my 
position ill that, gentlemen: I spend my time between the railhead 
and camps 1,2, and 3. I didn't know there was any disturbance or 
strike or riot or whatever you w^ant to call it until I arrived at Boston 
camp 1 about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I walked in and nothing 
was doing and I asked what was the matter and they said: "WeU, 
there is a strike on." 

That is the first I knew of it. 

Mr. STEED^L\N. Had the Japanese taken a strike vote? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I doii't know. 

Mr. Steedman. You haven't any information regarding that? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you heard that the Japanese took a strike 
vote? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. But you would have heard about it had they taken 
one, wouldn't you? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, rumors would be all. The warehouse 
department don't get that information. 

Mr. Steedman. You said on the 18th of November you returned to 
Boston from Barker and you went to camp No. 1 and no one was 
working. Will you describe to the committee just what happened 
at that time? 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. What was going on at camp No. 1 when you 
arrived there? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Wasn't anything going on. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the people congi-egated before the adminis- 
tration building? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Not that I recall; I didn't stop there. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any groups marcliing any place in the camp? 

}vlr. WiCKERSHAM. I didn't see any. 

62626— 43— vol. 15 13 



9022 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see any flags raised or after they had 
been raised? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you hear any music being played? 

Mr. Wickersham. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was everything in an orderly manner at the camp? 

Mr. Wickersham. It was in the warehouse area. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the situation at the administration 
building? 

Mr. Wickersham. Seemed to be all right. After I heard the news 
I went up there and it seemed to be very quiet. 

Mr. Steedman. Did that quietness prevajil during the entire 7 
days of the strike or riot? 

Mr. Wickersham. I don't loiow for this reason: T'VTien the strike 
took place I had to spend my time at the railhead, so I spent 90 
percent of my time there and then I returned to Parker or to Poston 
for a short time and then go back to Parker. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you inside unit No. 1 during the course of the 
strike? 

Mr. Wickersham. In and out of it ; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. You describe the condition there as being quiet and 
orderly; is that correct? 

Mr. Wickersham. All I can answer for on that is, I didn't go over 
to where the disturbance was; I confined my activities to the ware- 
house area which is on the outside of the main camp. 

Mr. Steedman. You heard a disturbance and you stayed away; is 
that correct? 

Mr. Wickersham. I attended to my own business. 

Mr. Steedman. Didn't you feel a curiosity as to what was going 
on over at unit No. 1 ? 

Mr. Wickersham. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did 3^ou later hear what happened at unit No. 1 ? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you tell the committee what you heard? 

Mr. Wickersham. I heard they were playing the Japanese national 
anthem. Whether it was or not I don't know. And they said they 
put up a Japanese flag but I didn't see it. I never looked for it. 

Mr. Steedman. How many people told you they were playing the 
Japanese national anthem? 

Mr. Wickersham. I judge five or six. 

Mr. Mundt. White people or Japanese people? 

Mr. Wickersham. White. 

Mr. Steedman. It was general knowledge at Poston that they were 
playing the Japanese national anthem; isn't that correct? 

Mr. Wickersham. That was the general rumor and discussion and 
talk. 

Mr. Mundt. How many told you they saw the Japanese flag flying? 

Mr. Wickersham. I should say about two. 

Mr. Mundt. Was that also the general rumor and talk? 

Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you have any reason to disbelieve the informa- 
tion given you to the effect that the Japanese were playing the 
Japanese national anthem and flying the Japanese flag inside the 
center at Poston? 

SI SI .lov— St— 02020 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9023 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I doii't place much confidence in any general 
conversations in such times as that. 

Mr. Steedman. Arc you inclined to believe that the Japanese flag 
was flying? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I do not know, sir. I don't think so myself. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't thuik so? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think they were playing tiic Japanese 
national anthem? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I don't think so. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't think they were? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No. 

Mr. Steedman. Do 3"ou know whether or not the Japanese have 
phonograph records or transcriptions of the Japanese national 
anthem, the piece known as the Kimagowa, in their homes? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I do not. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever made a search of their homes? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you at any time been instructed to search 
the l)arracks of the Japanese since you went to work at Poston? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir; I am a warehouseman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. If it is all right to break off here, we will take a 
recess until 20 minutes after 2 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 1 p. m., the hearing recessed until 2:20 p. m. of the 
same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(Whereupon the hearing was resumed at 2:20 p. m., pursuant to the 
taking of the noon recess.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Steedman, will you proceetl with the interrogation of the 
witness. 

TESTIMONY OF ERNEST S. WICKERSHAM- Resumed 

Mr. Steedman. In connection with your duties as warehouseman* 
have you had any occasion to o])scrve the Japanese workers in the 
warehouses harassing other Japanese workers who were attempting 
to carry out their duties as prescribed by you? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. Not in the warehouse. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you noticed that at any other places at the 
project? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You have never heard idle Japanese harassing 
those Japanese who were attempting to work? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And you have never seen any Japanese try to keep 
other Japanese from working.^ 

]Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Has such conduct been reported to you by any of 
the other Caucasian eriiployees working under you in the warehouses? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In your opinion are the Japanese who are keeping 
the records in the warehouses honest? 



9024 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA, ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WiCKEESHAM. I believe tlie present force I have— I think they 
are. You see that has been shifted numerous times until we got what 
we think are efficient people. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you had any instances of Japanese making 
incorrect records in the warehouses? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't know of any such instances? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a moment to the occasion 
at Parker when the Japanese told you they would not work unless 
they were assigned to some lighter task, 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Thc}^ didn't tell me they wouldn't work. 

Air. Steedman. But they told you they wouldn't unload the steel? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And they told you they wouldn't unload lumber? 

Air. "WicKERSHAM. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, that was a job you were engaged in at the 
time, was it not? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there any other work to be done there? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What was it? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. As I recall there were about 20 or 25 cars on the 
track at the time loaded with various things. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you put them to unloading that material? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. That I asked them to unload? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Air. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What did you do? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I just walked over and they talked among 
themselves and then they went to work unloading subsistence as I 
recall. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is the way to maintain discipline? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I don't think it is; I know it isn't. 

Air. Steedman. Well, what authority do you have over the Japa- 
nese who are working for you? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. None whatever. The only way that I cail 
punish them is to fire them. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have a record of how many you have fired? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. No, sir; I have iiot. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you say you have discharged 10 or 15 or 20? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Well, I have fired 20 at one time and they put 
them back to work again. 

Mr. Steedman. What did you discharge them for? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Wlio put them back to work? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Some of the higher officials. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The white officials of the camp reassigned the same 
Japanese whom you had fired, to the same job again? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir; Mr. Townsend did that. 

Air. Steedman. When? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. I don't recall the exact date. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall why you fired them? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the reason? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTWITIES 9025 

Mr. "WicKERSHAM. T cauglit five of them stealing. 

Mr. Steedman. What were they steahng? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Oraiigcs and groceries. 

Mr. Steedman. How much did they steal? 

Mr. W1CKER8HAM. They stole about 5 or 6 dozen oranges and 10 
or 15 cans of groceries. 

j\fr. Steedman. Did 3^ou report that back to Mr. Townsend? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

!Mr. Steedman. And you say he returned them to the job imme- 
diately? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No; it was 3 or 4 days later. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you in mind any other instances that you 
can relate to the committee wherein Japanese have been guilty of 
stealing materials out of the warehouses? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. wSteedman. That is the only instance that has come to your 
attention? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Air. Steedman. And you took summary action as soon as you 
learned of the fact that they had stolen groceries? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir, 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were the stolen goods returned to the warehouse? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM.. Not all the oranges were returned because they 
had eaten some of them. 

Air. CosTELLO. Were the canned goods returned? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Air. CosTELLO. That is the only instance of stealing that you know 
of that took place in the warehouses over which you had charge? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. At Parker; yes, sir. 

Air. Steedman. Is there a conmiittee composed of Japanese working 
in the warehouses which you consult with regarding the operation of 
the warehouses? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. I do not; no, sir. 

Air. Steedman. Has there ever been such a Japanese committee? 

Air. \\'ickersham. Not in the warehouses; no, sir. 
"Air. Steedman. How often do the Japanese call upon you, as a 
committee, regarding the operation of the warehouse? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. They haven't called recently but they did before 
about, I should judge, about twice a month. 

Air. Steedman. What was the nature of these calls? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. Oh, it seemed — they seemed to be just seeking 
general information and the method of handling the materials and 
supplies. 

Air. Steedman. Would they request an interview prior to coming to 
see you? 

Air. Wickersh.\m. Yes, sir; they would come in the oflBce. 

^Ir. Steedman. As a committee representing the Japanese ware- 
housemen? 

Air. WicKERSHAM. No, not representing the Japanese warehouse- 
men — representing other departments. 

Mr. AIundt. Do you have any other information as to whether 
Air. Townsend returned those Japanese to your employment of his 
own volition or was he asked to do that by someone liigher up? 



9026 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I coiildii't say. Al] I know is he told me that 
they were down on their knees begging for the job back and I told 
him that I didn't want them but he returned them just the same. 

Mr. MuNDT. You don't know whether that was his idea or the 
idea of somebody higher up? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You say there were 20 men involved in that case? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You say they only stole a couple dozen oranges and 
about 10 or 15 cans of food? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How were the 20 involved in that stealing? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. There was only five of them that did the 
actual stealing. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How were the other 15 implicated in the stealing? 

Mr, WiCKERSHAM. They woiddn't work. 

Mr. CosTELLO. W^ouldn't work because the other five were being 
discharged? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I dou't know, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The other 15 just refused to work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And they were not involved in the stealing? 

Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But they didn't give you any reason as to why they 
didn't want to work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; they never do. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did they sit down at the time of the stealing or 
was it after the 5 had been discharged or were all 20 discharged at 
once? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. After the five were taken to the Japanese 
police court. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Then the other 15 refused to work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were they the only Japanese that you ever fired 
from the job? 

Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. That is all. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just those 20? 

Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you fire any more after that? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Fire any more? 

Air. MuNDT. After they were returned to you? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I w^ould have fired some before that. 

Mr. AluNDT. W^as that the first offense you had detected? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That was the only one I ever actually caught 
myself. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did you have any reports from others as to 
stealing? » 

Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did you take action in those cases? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No; I didn't because I didn't have, as you might 
say, the goods on them. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How many other reports did you have regarding 
stealing? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I would judge about four or five. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9027 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were there large amounts of foodstuff involved in 
those stealings? 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir; small, petty amounts. 

Mr. MuNDT. You have had other Japanese refuse to work besides 
those 20, have j'ou not? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; I have had them refuse to work 
twice — ^two different gangs. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just that gang and the one at Parker? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. AVell, both of these were at Parker. I never 
had any refuse to work down in camp. 

Mr. MuNDT. How far apart were those two instances — the one of 
the fruit stealing and the one that wouldn't move the cement and 
lumber? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I judgc about a month or 6 weeks apart. 

.Mr. CosTELLO. Who actually unloaded the steel and lumber? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Oil Sundays they would call in all the Cauca- 
sians and the Indians and all the machines that were available and 
we would work as high as 38 men and 3 machines and uidoad the 
stuff. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But none of the Japanese participated in that 
unloading? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact weren't these 20 who were 
involved in the episode you have just related, good workers? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. They were when they first started. 

Mr. Steedman. Were they good workers at the time of this occur- 
rence? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; they had slacked off for some reason. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I have a memorandum dated 
September 18, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie: 

"Subject: Warehouse unloading situation at Parker," signed by 
Mr. H. H. TowTisend, transportation and supply officer. This 
memorandum was furnished to me by Mr. Townsend and I would 
like to read it into the record at this point. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You might read the memorandum. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

Unless there is some reason it should not be done, I am attempting to reorganize 
and install the old crew that was dismissed a few weeks ago due to a similar 
condition that exists at this time. 

Do you recall this memorandum? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what Mr. Townsend was referring to 
when he refers to "a similar condition?" Did you have another 
incident like the first one you have mentioned to the committee? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Does he mean he is referring to the first strike 
or sit-down? 

Mr. Steedman. This is dated September 18 — before the strike. 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. You see there were two strikes at the Parker 
warehouse before the big disturbance. 

Mr. Steedman. What were the dates of those strikes? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I dou't recall — about a month or 6 weeks apart. 

Mr. Steedman. Prior to November 18, 1942? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. "What were the causes of the two strikes you have 
just mentioned? 



9028 UISr-AlMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I do not know, 

_ Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese who struck under your jiu-is- 
diction? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you attempt to ascertain the cause of the 
strikes? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, for instance, they would get in their 
trucks at 9:30 and they — they had arrived at 9 — one crew would get 
in the truck and 20 or 30 men drive away. Nothing was said about 
what was the matter. 

The next day they come back and they were asked, "What did you 
go home for yesterday?" 

"Only had eggs for breakfast." 

"What else was on the table?" 

"Well, that — there was a lot of cereal but we don't eat that junk." 

Mr. Steedman. And they just drove off the job? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you report that to the management? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs. 

Mr. Steedman. And what action did the camp officials take? 
. Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't know, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you speak more loudly? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I do not know what they did. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you receive a memorandum in reply to your 
memorandum advising them of the situation at the warehouse at 
Parker? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't recall whether I did or not. 

Mr. Steedman. You are referring now to the first strike when you 
say they drove up in their trucks and said they had only had eggs 
for breakfast? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, no; that was the second strike. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you tell the committee what happened 
during the first strike? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We had the men working and I had them split 
into two crews and I noticed one crew was working very nicely and 
the other crew was all setting down, so I walked down to the crew 
that was setting down and I said, "What is the matter?" 

Nobody answered. I said, "What in hell is the matter with you?" 

They said, "We don't know what we are going to get paid." 

So i said, "What has that got to do with working?" 

And they said, "We don't want to work until we find out the pay." 

So, I proceeded to the office and rang up the main office and they 
said, "Bring them in." 

So, I proceeded to bring them in and they talked to them and sent 
them back. 

Mr. Steedman. And was that Mr. Head? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. At this particular time it was Mr. Evans. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Evans? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Evans give the Japanese any satisfaction? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. He went into some detail to explain to them at 
that particular time it wasn't decided whether it would be $16 or $19 
a month. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9029 

Mr. Steedman. What was the center paying the workers who were 
doino; the work that you are referring to now? 

Air. AVicKERSHAM. They were supposed to be getting $16. 

j\Ir. Steedman. Did Mr. Evans raise their pay to $19 a month? 

!Mr. Wickersham. Not at that time; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he later? 

Mr. ^\iCKERSHAM. No; it hasn't been raised until just recently. 

^Er. Steedman. It is $19 now? 

'Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. I will continue with the reading of the memorandum: 

In checking their records I find that they handled more than 3,000,000 pounds 
of freight during August under adverse conditions. 

jSIr. Steedman. Does that refer to the crew that you discharged 
because tlie}^ were stealing Government property? 

Mr. Wickersham. I would judge that is the crew that set down 
and was wanting to know what they were going to be paid and also 
the five members that were caught stealing. 

Mr. Steedman. That refers to both crews? 

Mr. Wickersham. No; that was the one crew. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

This crew feels that they have been given a bad break and are now willing to 
take over the job and promise to do a better job of work than they did before. 
I am convinced that in this instance the Japanese l)oys are not entirely at fault. 
The Caucasian management is responsible for the existing conditions. 

Mr. Steedman. What does he mean by that? 
Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. I do not know, sir. 
Mr. Steedman (reading): 

It is my intention to work the crew that is now on from 7 to 3 p. m. and the 
second from 2 to 10 p. m. This will allow the men travel time between their camp 
and the warehouse. This has been one of the conditions that they have found 
fault with. They were asked to travel on their own time making their working 
hours 10 hours instead of 8. We have at this time 30 carloads of freight to be 
unloaded and I am sure that this emergency can be handled properh' from now on. 

That is signed "H. H. Townsend." 

Mr. Steedman. This is the order directing the men to be put back 
to work, is it not? 

Mr. W'ickersham. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did any of the Caucasian employees at Poston 
sympathize with those Japanese? * 

Mr. W^ickersham. You mean in the warehouse department? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. W^ickersham. I don't think so, and I don't think they con- 
demn them. 

Mr. Steedman. "What was the attitude of other employees, em- 
ployees outside of the warehouse? 

Mr. Wickersham. I couldn't say about those. I am not in close 
touch with them. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you experienced any interference in j^our 
work from the community welfare service department? 

Mr. Wickersham. Not directly. 

Mr. Steedman. I did not hear your answer. 

Mr. Wickersham. I said not directly. 

Mr, Steedman. Have you indirectly? 



9030 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In what way? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, take for instance they say: "Well, now 
if these people want to work 2 hours and go home it is all right." 

So they work 2 hours and go home. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you give them credit on their time cards for 
an 8-hour day if they work only 2 hours and go home? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I try to see that their time is cut down to 2 hours 
or the time they actually worked, but our timekeepers are Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. The timekeepers who compile the records for these 
employees in the warehouse are Japanese also? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you instruct the timekeepers to cut down the 
number of hours to the actual number of hours that they work? , 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do they comply with your instructions? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ill some cases — where I have checked them, 

Mr. Steedman. What about the situation in cases where you 
haven't checked them? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, I don't kno-s^ — I haven't checked them. 

Mr. Steedman. Don't you check the records each time you tell a 
timekeeper a certain man has worked only 2 hours? ' 

(No answer.) 

Mr. Steedman. Don't you ascertain whether or not the timekeeper 
has complied with your instructions? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. If I tell him that, yes; I check on that. I don't 
check him every day. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you trust the Japanese timekeepers? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Somewliat. 

Mr. Steedman. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Eberharter. Just one question. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Mr. Eberharter. 

Mr. Eberharter. As I get it, Mr. Wickersham, the reason you 
took no disciplinary action at the time these Japanese refused to 
unload this steel and Imnber and cement, was because when you had 
disciplined them before by dismissing them from the pay roll, they 
had been put back and you felt it v/ouldn't be of any use to dismiss 
these men for refusing to unload this cement and steel and lumber? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is all. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt. 

Mr. Mundt. What is the history of the 20 men who were put back 
to work by the memorandum read by Mr. Steedman a few moments 
ago? Are they still working in your warehouse? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. Mundt. Did you fire them again? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, they put in their time riding back and 
forth and loafing around the warehouse and then the disturbance came 
along and they never did put Japs back at the Parker warehouse. 

Mr. Mundt. They never went back to work? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No; they never did go back to work. 

Mr. Mundt. You said, with regard to the social welfare workers, 
that they said if they want to work 2 hom-s, let them work 2 hom-s and 
call it enough. Whom do you mean by "they"? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9031 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Tlic Japanese people. 

Mr. MuNDT. You said: "They said it," referring to some social 
welfare workers. Whom did you mean by "they"? Yon said they 
iiitorrei'etl indirectly at times with the Japanese working there. 

Mr. WicKERSHAM. Ycs. 

Mr. MuNDT. Whom did you mean by "they?" 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. The social workers. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We can't hear you. Will you please speak louder? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. The social workers, as we classify them. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Who are the social workers? What are the names 
of those people? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. At that particular time I think it was Miss 
Findley who was the head of it. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Anyone else? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I do not know who the rest of them were. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is Dr. Powell a social worker there? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. He is now. I don't know whether he was there 
at that time or not. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you ever go to Mr. Head and suggest to him that 
you be given more authority to exercise disciplinary action against 
these striking Japanese? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir; I have had several conferences with 
him. 

Mr. MuNDT. What was the outcome of those conferences? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Nothing that I could see. 

Mr. MuNDT. What would he saj^ about it? How did he think the 
Japs should be treated? Did he think they should be entitled to 
strike like that? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, he didn't express himself on that par- 
ticular point. 

^Tr. ^luNDT. You went to him and you said substantially: "Mr. 
Head, this is what has happened and I think I should be given 
more authority so we can get more work out of the Japanese," didn't 
you? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I didn't say it in that way. I went to 
him and explained the difficulties I had doing the work — difficulty 
in unloading the amount of cars I had — ^thc tonnage that I had to 
move. 1 put the facts before him and let him use his own judgment 
as to what means he was going to use. 

!Mr. CosTELLO. Did you make any recommendations as to im- 
proving conditions or increased authority for yourself? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You made no recommendations at all? 

!Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Simply set before him the facts? 

Air. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. What did he state to you? Did he make any 
offer to improve the conditions or improve the situation? 

Air. WiCKERSHAM. I rccall each one would end up: "Well, we will 
see what can be done." 

Mr. CosTELLO. You were satisfied with that and didn't press him 
any further? 

Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I had to be. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was anything actually done then? 



9032 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 



Mr, WiCKERSHAM. I coiildii't see any results. 

Mr. CosTELLO. As far as you know Mr. Head took no action 
whatsoever in spite of the fact that he was notified by you as to the 
conditions existing there at Parker? 

Mr, WiCKERSHAM. As far as my knowledge goes I would say yes, 

Mr, CosTELLO, That will be all, Mr, Wickersham, We appreciate 
your coming here, 

(Witness excused,) 

Mr, Steedman, Mr, Chairman, when Mr. Wickersham left the 
stand he handed me a memorandum entitled "Warehouse, July 1, 
1942, to May 31, 1943, tonnage unloaded at Parker," and he asked 
that this memorandum be inserted in the record at the conclusion of 
his testimony, 

Mr, CosTELLO. That shows the tonnage handled through the ware- 
house at Parker between those dates? 

Mr. vSteedman. That is coiTect. 

Mr, CosTELLO, Without objection, the memorandum will be sub- 
mitted for the record, 

(The memorandum referred to is as follows:) 



Lumber 

Dry subsistence 

Produce 

Meat and eggs 

Machinerj^ (tanks, trucks, etc.) . 

Cement, sand, rock 

Japanese household goods 

Pipe, steel, tools, etc 

Miscellaneous 



Tons 

6,806 
358 
616 
655 
606 
703 
574 
161 
954 



4, 
3, 



Total (48,909,646 

pounds) 124,460 



Tons 
1,757 



Other bv truck: 

Milk 

Stove oil (gallons 

1,873,755) 6,558 

Bread ^. 634 

Miscellaneous (food and 

all other type) 8, 000 



Total (82,808,398 

pounds) 1 41, 404 

Monthly tonnage, Parker 2, 446 

Total monthly tonnage, Parker, 4, 140 



• Approximate. 



Mr. CosTELLO. Will you call your next witness, Mr, Steedman? 
Mr, Steedman. Our next witness is Mr, Odemar. 



TESTIMONY OF WALTER H. ODEMAR, GRAND TRUSTEE, NATIVE 

SONS OF THE GOLDEN WEST 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman,) 

Mr, CosTELLO, Mr. Odemar, will you give the reporter your name 
and address? 

Mr. Odemar, Walter H, Odemar, My offices are 820 Rowan 
Building in the city of Los Angeles, 

Mr, Chairman, and members of the committee, and Mr, Steedman, 
I am grand trustee of the Native Sons of the Golden West, In 
behalf of the Native Sons of the Golden West and of the board of 
grand officers, as well as individually as a citizen, I wish to state that 
it is the opinion of the group whom I represent that they are unequivo- 
cally opposed to the return of the Japanese to the areas from which they 
were taken and placed in the relocation centers — more particularly, of 
course, to California, 

We are in favor and have made many appropriate resolutions which 
have been sent to the various members of the various delegations in 
the House of Representatives from California, 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9033 

We favor the placing of the relocation centers in the hands of the 
United States Army. 

In taking that position and being opposed to the return of the 
Japanese to the areas from which they were taken, we are being con- 
sistent with the policy of our organization for all of this century. 

If I may I will illustrate that consistency by w^orking backward 
from the present date. 

At the last two sessions of the California Legislature, prior to the 
session that has just adjourned, among other things we were desirous 
of having passed in California for the protection of our coast, the so- 
called alien fishing bills. 

By appropriate resolutions we asked the California Legislature to 
pass those bills, bills which would make it mandatory that fishing 
boats leaving the harbors in California, be wholly manned as well as 
wholly owned by American citizens. 

We had representatives appear before the committees hearing those 
bills. We were very greatly disappointed when at each of those two 
sessions the bill was not passed out of the committee but withheld in. 
committee and allowed to die there. 

In 1942, along with the American Legion in California, the State 
Grange of California and the A. F. of L. of California, we appeared 
before the Senate immigration committee through an organization 
they helped create and of which w^e were a member with those other 
three organizations, known as the California Joint Immigration Com- 
mittee, with offices in San Francisco. 

Three of the members of that committee appeared before the 
senate committee. Two of those members were illustrious members 
of our organization — ex-Senator James Phelan and Valentine S. 
McClatchey — and I would like to refer the members of this committee 
to the report of the hearmgs before the Committee on ImmigTation 
in the United States Senate, of the Sixty-eighth Congress, first session 
on Senate bill 2756, and particularly the testimony of those gentlemen, 
the two whom I have mentioned, together with U. S. Webb until 
recently the attorney general of the State of California, on the dates 
of Alarch 11, 12, 13, and 15, 1924. 

Mr. Eberharter. What is the date? 

Mr. Odemar. 1924. 

Mr. Eberharter. What session of Congress was that? 

Mr. Odemar. Sixty-eighth. That was wdien the committee was 
considering the five bills before the Senate on immigration and finally 
passed the oriental exclusion provisions of the Immigration Act. 

If the committee would have the time I would like to refer that 
report to the committee for it contains by the three gentlemen I have 
mentioned, testimony which is equally true today for the problem 
before this committee. 

The statements made there, some of which were prognostication?, 
are actually the facts today. 

Before that we were instrumental and pride ourselves in the work 
which our members at that time, in 1920, performed in having the 
mitiative proposition No. 1, hi 1920, in California, the alien land law 
put over by an overwhelming majority — six-hundred-odd thousand 
to 24,000, which was an amendment attempting to put teeth in the 
California alien land law, for the alien land law of 1913, which had 



9034 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

been passed by the legislature of that year, and was found to be 
wanting in its provisions. 

We were very instrumental in having that first alien land bill in 
1913 passed. 

In 1910 when there were a number of bills before the State legisla- 
ture at Sacramento on broad Japanese questions, many members of 
our order were members of that legislature and we, of course, bowed 
to the request of President Theodore Roosevelt and none of those 
acts were passed by the legislature at that time; and I am speaking 
of the State legislature now. 

In 1908 and 1909 we were attempting to tell the people on the Pacific 
coast of the problem that would some day arise but yielded again to 
the request from the State Department in Washington to go easy on 
the question. 

So you can see we are not ''Johnnie come late" with our facts, 
but relate back to the time when the Japanese were not nearly as 
numerous and the problem could have been prevented had a com- 
mittee such as this made a study of the problem. 

If I may, and I laiow this committee does not have the problem 
before it, state that we are also unequivocally opposed to the amend- 
ment of any immigration law or naturalization law, such as is before 
the House and which I have read lately was tabled in committee by 
a vote of 9 to 8, just 2 or 3 days ago. 

We sincerely hope that the Members of the House of Representatives 
here today if they ever have an opportunity — if the opportunity 
comes to them to vote on those bills, that the immigration laws and 
the naturalization laws be not amended at least during the duration 
and until a time when the problem can be seen more broadly than it 
can at present. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Does that complete your statement? 

Mr. Odemar. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You felt the passage of the fishing acts, to which 
you have had reference, would have been beneficial in handling the 
Japanese situation, particularly in our harbors? 

Mr. Odemar. We did definitely and in that regard we assisted in 
having available the head of the Navy Intelligence of this district 
appear before the committee and give his views thereon. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Because of evidence that had been uncovered re- 
garding the activities and the knowledge of the Japanese fishermen of 
our harbors, he felt it was necessary that a restraint be placed upon 
them? 

Mr. Odemar. That is true, together with the construction of their 
boats and the size of them. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The indication was that the fishing boats might have 
been used for military purposes and that the Japanese engaged in 
, fishing were actually engaged in subversive activities? 

Mr. Odemar. That is light. 

Mr. CosTELLO. I think that is all. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask one question for the sake of the 
record. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. How many members are there in the organiziation 
yoii represent here today? 

Mr, Odemar. Approximately 20,000 from San Diego to Eureka. 



UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9035 

Mr. Steedman. When was the organization founded or first estab- 
lished? 

Mr. Odemar. On the Uth of Jul}^ 1875. 

Mr. Steedman. That is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. Will you call your next witness, Mr. Steedman? 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Meyer. 

TESTIMONY OF ELDRED L. MEYER, PAST GRAND PRESIDENT, 
NATIVE SONS OF THE GOLDEN WEST 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Ivlr. CosTELLO. Will you please state your name for the record? 

Mr. Meyer. Eldred L. Meyer, I am a past grand president of the 
Native Sons of the Golden West and I am an inheritance-tax ap- 
praiser. 

Mr. Chairman, and Congressmen, my remarks will be quite brief 
but I would like to read, with your permission, two paragraphs or so 
from the story of Japanese immigration, which was compiled by the 
California Joint Immigration Committee, and published on No- 
vember 15, 1938; 

Mr. Eberharter. That is a report of what committee? 

Mr. Meyer. California Joint Immigration Committee studying the 
oriental question. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Composed of private citizens? 

Mr. Meyer. Composed of the four groups that Mr. Odemar referred 
to, the American Legion, the American Federation of Labor, the 
Grange, and the Native Sons of the Golden West. 

Mr. Eberharter. I simply wanted that clarified in the record. 

Mr. Meyer. And I will say in advance why I would like to read 
these two paragraphs; by reason of the fact that since Pearl Harbor 
you know our stand and on the opposite side of the picture there is 
another group and that is the puipose of wanting to bring this to the 
attention of this committee. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You may read the two paragraphs. 

Mr. Meyer (reading): 

In California the Japanese established a state withing a state. Every Japanese 
whether alien or American citizen was forced to register in a minor association 
subject to control of the Japanese Association of America, which in turn acted 
under the direction of the consul general of Japan, and to obey the orders of Japan. 

And the footnote there is No. 12, referring to the Japan secret 
policy. Senate Document No. 55, 1921, page G3: 

In 1915 the Federal Council of Churches of Christ in America, hoping thereby 
to win Japan to Christianity, promised to obtain immigration and naturalization 
privileges for her nationa.s in the United States. 

A campaign was organized by the consul for this purpose and in 1919 two bills 
therefor were actively advocated in congressional committee hearings — 

The footnote there is 13 — 

quota or exclusion for Japanese immigrants, cited page 31.3, House Immigration 
Committee, 1919; House Immigration hearing, 1919, 1920, and 1922: Senate 
Committee hearing, March 24. 

And then it refers to the Japanese conquest of American opinion 
by Flowers. 



9036 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The other paragraph that I referred to above is as follows: 

The enactment of the exclusion measure was not the unexpected and unobserved 
blow to Japanese pride she claims. It was the results of 24 years of evasion by 
her of her agreement to keep Japanese laborers out of the United States. 

In the final hearing before the Senate Immigration Committee in March 1924, 
the Japanese cause was presented by the Federal Council of Churches of Christ 
in America, under the direction of Dr. Sidney L. Gullick, born in the Orient, a 
missionary professor in a Japanese university on leave to propagandize Japan's 
'cause in this country. 

And there is a footnote here numbered 15: 

Japanese conquest of American opinion, by Flowers, pages 78 to 88. 

California's case for exclusion was presented for the California Joint Immigra- 
tion Committee under the authority of its then four constituting bodies: American 
Legion, American Federation of Labor, the Grange, and the Native Sons of the 
Golden West, by Hon. U. S. Webb, State attorney general of California; Hon. 
James D. Phelan, former United States Senator from California; and V. K. 
McClatchey. 

I believe those paragraphs more or less speak for themselves and as 
I originally stated, it is the purpose of bringing this before the com- 
mittee if they desire to, during the investigation or any further 
investigation, to see if such be the case now that a pressure group by 
these churches and other churches are not still active in the cause of 
Japan regardless of the fact that we are in a war against Japan. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any information indicating as to 
whether there are any pressure groups of any kind operating here in 
California, urgmg the release of the Japanese to the Pacific coast? 

Mr. Meyer. Well, not that I could point my finger to outside of 
the fact that these various debates or forums where we take our posi- 
tion against the Japanese. The majority of the times those that are 
in favor of the Japanese are members of church groups and such was 
the case last Sunday night when there was a forum over radio station 
KFC, at wiiich time Mr. Odemar and Mr. Shoemaker, of the American 
Legion, stated our case regarding the Japanese situation and the oppo- 
site side, as I stated, was taken by Dr. Fisher and Dr. Hunter of the 
church groups. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are both of those ministers in church organizations? 

Mr. Meyer. Of this city and county; yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are those forums held frequently or are they just 
an occasional program? 

Mr. Meyer. Well, I would say the answer would be occasional, 

Mr. Costello. It is not a consistent program of trying to create 
radio forums every week? 

Mr. Meyer. No; I couldn't say that that is true. 

Mr. Costello. You don't know whether the Federal Council of 
Churches of Christ, for example, are at the present time taking any 
action in the matter of the release of the Japanese evacuees from the 
camps? 

Mr. Meyer. Well, I believe 'Mr. Odemar could answer that better 
than I, Mr. Costello. 

Mr. Costello. Do you have any information regarding that 
matter, Mr. Odemar? 

Mr. Odemar. I do not. I have no information as to whether the 
Federal Churches of Christ in ximerica have definitely gone on record 
to do it, but many of their officers and members are advocating that. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9037 

And if I may make one fiirtlior correction — Dr. Fisher on the radio 
^with us last Sunday nig-ht is not a minister of the gospel. He is a 
'professor of Biblical history at the U. S. C. 

I think Mr. IMeyer inadvertently stated he was a minister. 

l\ir. AIeyer. I stand corrected. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether any of the pastors of the 
Churches of Christ in California have openly advocated the release 
of Japanese to the coast? 

l\ir. Odemar. Dr. Allen Hunter, who is pastor of the Congregational 
Church of West Hollywood, was the gentleman — was one of the 
gentlemen on the opposite side last Sunday night over the radio and 
he mentioned and he definitely advocates the return of the Japanese 
to the Pacific coast. 

Some month or two ago Mr. Clyde Shoemaker and myself had a 
forum before a group of high-school and junior-college students in 
West Los Angeles, at which time the opposite position — and it was 
definitely on this question, whereas last Sunday was the question: 

Shall the American-born Japanese be denied citizenship? 

That was last Sunday's subject. But 2 months ago, approximately, 
our question then was the return of the Japs from relocation centers 
and Air. Hugh McBeth, an officer of the American Colored Group or- 
ganization of some type, which I understand is national in its scope - 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is that the National Association for the Protection 
of Colored People? 

Mr. Meyer. 1 believe that is the name, thank you. If it isn't the 
name it is a name quite similar to that. 

He is a Los Angeles attorney and was with a man representing the 
Reconciliation Fellowship and they actually debated in favor of the 
return of the Japanese. 

If the committee wishes the exact names, I have them in my office. 
I haven't them with me. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You don't know whether the organizations to which 
these people beloiig have urged that by resolution? 

Mr. Odemar. I have no such information. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But individuals belonging to the various groups 
have taken an individual stand on the matter? 

Mr. Meyer. That was my statement. 

Mr. Costello. But you feel the majorit}^ of the people of California 
do not follow that stand and are opposed to the return of the Japanese 
to the Pacific coast until after the period of the war? 

Mr. Odemar. I am happy you asked that question because it is 
my observation that usually after an appearance on the radio, and 
I have been to a number of radio stations and a number of service 
clubs wherein I have been advocating against the return of the 
Japanese from relocation centers, and the enthusiasm has been 
spontaneous. They have thanked me very profusely for it and have 
stated: "Why don't we go further? We are not going far enough in 
our opposition to the Japanese." 

And my observation is that 7 out of 10, at least with those people 
with whom I have talked, are of that opinion and they do call me up 
and present their opinions. 

Mr. Costello. You have had occasion to travel up and down the 
State quite a bit and you have found a similar situation in other sec- 
tions of the State? 

62626— 43— VOL 15 14 



9038 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Odemar. Yes, sir. I do know — and I am going to San Fran- 
cisco again tomorrow — I have traveled up and down throiighont the 
State of CaUfornia, having made seven trips to San Francisco and the 
bay region last year, and it has been my observation that that opinion 
is the same there ixs it is here. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Does the committee have any questions? 

Mr. Eberharter. No questions. 

Mr. Odemar. And that goes for San Diego and Orange County, 
also. Orange County, I feel, is 9 out of 10 for the exclusion of the 
Japanese. I feel 9 out of 10 are of that opinion. 

If I may make one brief statement: I do not believe that I have re- 
ceived any opposition in my conversations with persons when I have 
explained to them the situation of the so-called Kibei Shiman, and 
that is one of the major grounds — just one of the major grounds on 
which we base our contention. 

Now, I am quite sure the committee, is familiar with the Kibei 
Shiman, and when that is explained to the public, a number of whom 
are not familiar with it, they say: 

Well, then, how can we expect them to be true to the United States even though 
they are born here, and while under the decisions of the court they are technically 
citizens of the United States, when they are taught the things that they are taught 
in Japan during that formative period of their lives, how can they be good 
Americans. 

Mr. Costello. Mr. Steedman? 

Mr. Steedman. No questions. 

Mr. Meyer. May I add just one line to your question regarding the 
feelings of the people of the State of California on the return from re- 
location centers to California and the Pacific coast — -to your question 
that you put to Mr. Odemar? 

It is my understanding that each of the county boards of supervisors 
of the 58 counties have gone on record opposing, by resolution, oppos- 
ing their return to California. 

Mr. Costello. I think they have so indicated to the committee, by 
sending us telegrams during the last 2 or 3 days. 

The committee thanks you gentlemen very much for appearing here 
today. 

Mr. Odemar. And we thank you for the opportunity. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Costello. Call yoiu" next witness. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Beery. 

TESTIMONY OF BEN S. BEERY, ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES, CALIF., 
REPRESENTING LOS ANGELES COUNTY COUNCIL OF THE 
AMERICAN LEGION 

(The witness was duly sworn by the Chairman.) 

Mr. Costello. Will you kindly state your full name and occupation 
to the reporter? 

Mr. Beery. Ben S. Beery. I am an attorney at 912 Rown Building, 
Los Angeles. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I asked Mr. Beery to come here 
today as a representative of the American Legion and he is gomg to 
make a statement on behalf of that organization. 

Mr. Costello. We are very happy to have you appear before the 
committee, Mr. Beery. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9039 

Mr. Beery. Thank you. I am appearing on behalf of the Los 
Angeles County Council of the American Legion, which consists of 
something over 26,000 members. 

I am also appearing on behalf of the war advisory council of the Los 
Angeles County Comicil. 

I'lie Los Angeles County Council of the American Legion is abso- 
lutely opposed to the return of the Japanese to the Pacific coast area 
during the period of the war. And 1 am likewise, the same as Mr. 
Odemar, advocating the control of the Japanese by the Army. 

We do so and we take that position for two very distinct reasons: 

In the first place, it is the opinion of the American Legion, and I am 
satisfied a well-founded opinion from experience, that some of the 
Japanese are absolutely disloyal. 

Because of the peculiar Japanese psychology it is exceedingly diffi- 
cult, if not impossible, to determine. You caimot tell whether they 
are loyal or disloj^al. 

If they return to tliis area it will simply mean an invitation to trouble. 
This is an active combat zone, and it is a terrifically large zone. The 
return of a large number of Japanese to this area would make the job 
of surveillance of these Japanese practically a physical impossibility. 

I think it is a well known fact that the Army and the Navy and 
the F. B. I. have their hands full at the present time and it would 
smiply be adding to their burdens to carry on a surveillance of all 
the Japanese that might be returned to this area. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Would that apply to Japanese soldiers who are 
serving in the American Army as well as civilians? 

Mr. Beery. In our opinion it would and the reason we have that 
opmion is this: 

We have considered with some seriousness, the possibility of landing 
of Japanese on the Pacific shores from submarines. We know that 
Germans have been able to land saboteurs on the east coast from 
submarines, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they 
could land Japanese on the west coast. 

With that in view if there were any Japanese here it would be a 
simple matter for the Japanese to land from their own submarines in 
United States Army uniforms, and I am satisfied that from their 
espionage work they know what our uniforms are like. It would be 
no difficulty at all. We feel it would be a simple matter — a simpler 
matter to keep them all out rather than to complicate the issues. 

Mr. CosTELLO. If we release Japanese from the relocation camps 
it would probably relieve the Japanese military from the necessity 
of sending the Japs over in submarines? 

Mr. Beery, if we do release them we will not only be diminishing 
the need of their sending saboteurs over, but we will have them on our 
own shores and behind the backs of our Army which is charged with 
the defense of this shore. The country would be full of potential 
saboteurs and spies. 

The people of the Pacific coast as well as the people of the United 
States have placed wholeheartedly the responsibility of the defense 
of these shores in the military authorities. They feel that it would 
be a terrific responsibility on the part of any command to have to 
defend these shores and also protect those shores from an enemy at 
its back. 



9040 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

In addition to that the hazards would become greater at a time of 
crisis if you assume that the Japanese do what we know they would 
like to do, namely, attack the Pacific coast. 

That would be a terrific time of crisis when all the military and 
naval forces should be directed toward the defense of our country 
and at the same time that their energies should be directed toward 
our shores the activity of potential saboteurs and spies would be 
increased. 

We feel that the return of the Japanese would be a terrific hazard 
from that standpoint. 

There is another separate and entirely distinct reason why we 
oppose the return of the Japanese. 

The treachery of the attack on America at Pearl Harbor certainly 
aroused the righteous indignation of all people. That indignation 
has been intensified by the subsequent conduct of the Japanese 
military. 

The stories of sailors and soldiers and marines coming back from 
Guadalcanal and other places hasn't done anything to increase the 
affection of the American people toward the Japanese. 

The execution of our aviators over Tokyo, and I know this from 
conversations that I have had, excited a terrific resentment in Cali- 
fornia and I am afraid if the Japanese were returned to this coast, 
it would be simply an invitation to unrest and violence. 

Now, I want the record to be clear that the American Legion 
opposes any kind of violence but it is a serious hazard. 

I have heard law enforcement officers talk. As a matter of fact I 
had luncheon at the Clark Hotel where I heard law enforcement 
officers from southern California talk, and one after another of them 
commented upon their serious concern over what might happen if the 
Japanese are brought back to this area. 

I have heard comments from many other sources. People are 
enraged and it would be an invitation to violence. 

Now, we all abhor mob violence and it might have very serious 
results if that should happen. In the first place it would simply be 
an invitation to the German propaganda machine to carry on propa- 
ganda on the theory, as they have always carried on, on the theory 
that this country is disunited; that there are minority groups in this 
country ; that the American people are opposing the minority groups, 
and that is the very tact that the German propagandists would take. 
They would circulate that not only among their own people 
but it would very shortly reach China and they would endeavor to 
persuade the Chinese that our affection and regard for the excellent 
stand they have taken against the Japanese, is a mere sham. They 
would try to make the Japanese believe that our whole feeling of 
hatred was toward everybody that might have slant eyes and that 
isn't true. 

But it would be a weapon in their hands. 

Adolf Hitler has said: 

Dissension, confusion, and panic are my weapons. 

And, gentlemen, I am satisfied that the return of the Japanese 
would create the very thing that he desires. 

The people of California would not have their minds 100 percent 
on winning the war but would have their minds on possible trouble 
with the Japanese locally. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9041 

The next thing that that would result in, and I think it is a n;ost 
serious thing, is, it would result, and it would be an excuse for re- 
prisals on the part of the Japanese. Just imagine some little riot, 
it wouldn't have to amount to much — some little riot develop in 
which some ini thinking person would attack a Japanese and a Japa- 
nese would attack in turn an American. We have our zoot suit 
difficulties today. A Japanese would attack an American then the 
next thing that you would hear would be that the Japanese were go- 
ing to use that as an excuse for reprisals, and if the public press is 
correct, and I believe it is, the Japanese have more of our nationals 
in their possession that we have of theirs. 

I am satisfied that the opinion is practically unanimous. I have 
never talked to a member of the county council that is in favor of the 
return of the Japanese. They are wholeheartedly opposed to it. 

I think that then feeling might very well be summed up in a story 
from Tony Slocum, who is of Japanese ancestory, and who is a mem- 
ber of the American Legion and a veteran of the last war. At the 
time of the evacuation I met him on the street and he said they were 
being evacuated, and he said: 

As far as the loyal Japanese were concerned, that if thc}^ could serve America 
by being evacuated that that was the place they wanted to serve. 

And, gentlemen, I can tell you as to the disloyal Japanese we of 
the American Legion have no consideration for them whatsoever. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe, Mr. Beery, that the return of the 
servicemen from the Pacific fighting theaters has tended to intensify 
public sentiment against the Japanese on the west coast? 

Mr. Beery. I am satisfied it has. They come back and tell of the 
horrors they have seen and the atrocities that were being perpetrated 
by the Japanese and the American people are righteously indignant. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The largest number of servicemen who have been 
actively engaged in the Pacific theater have been brought back to the 
west coast for hospitalization, have they not? 

Mr. Beery. I am not able to state the percentage. I laiow a large 
number have. How big the number is, I don't know. 

Mr. Costello. But there are men who are recuperating here and 
who are on leave on the Pacific coast? 

Mr. Beery. Yes, sir; and they have friends in California and many 
of them are members of the Legion and they appear at the Legion 
meetings and they tell of the conditions that they had to face. I 
don't mean to say they disclose military information because they 
are careful not to. 

Mr. Costello. They have related instances of treachery on the 
part of the Japanese engaged in fighting in order to bruig about the 
death of American troops? 

Mr. Beery. Yes, sir. I remember one occasioQ a man was dis- 
cussing an incident wherein the Japanese said they wanted to surrender 
and sent word to the American troops that they wanted to surrender. 
The American troops went over to pick them up and all of the 
Americans, with the exception of two were slaughtered. 

Mr. Costello. And those acts of treachery being related back 
here, has greatly inflamed the people up and down this coast? 

Mr. Beery. Yes, sir; and the execution of our aviators that bombed 
Tokyo has been one of the greatest factors increasing the feeling of 
bitterness and hatred on the part of Americans in California. 



9042 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Don't you feel also that in view of the fact that 
we have recognized that there are spies in the country, as evidenced 
by the fact they put out so many posters warning us against careless 
talking, that to release any large number of Japanese thi'oughout 
the country would be releasing undoubtedly a few spies who would 
be able to obtain some information and communicate it to the enemy? 

Mr. Beery. In m.y opinion a few spies is an under statement. 
Frankly, I can't find a logical reason for their return at this time. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You understand that a system of espionage is in 
effect all over the country? 

Mr. Berry. That is right. We wouldn't need the Army Intelli- 
gence and Navy Intelligence, who are doing such a wonderful job if 
there wasn't espionage going on. They are catching espionage agents 
all the time. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And if we scatter the Japanese by releasing them 
individual!}^ to various parts of the country we are only intensifying 
their problem and endangering our security in wartime. 

Mr. Beery. That is absolutely correct. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Are there any questions? 

Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Beery, do you feel that it is equally undesirable 
to release the Japanese from these relocation centers to the midpart of 
America and Midwest and central America as it is on the Pacific coast? 

Mr. Beery. The feeling of the Legionnaires is not as strong in re- 
gard to the release to the Midwest for agricultural purposes as it is to 
the Pacific coast. It is very intense on the Pacific coast. 

There is this, however, that they do fear that the release of the 
Japanese — ^we will take Iowa and Kansas, for example, in the middle 
part of the country, in small numbers where they would be spread out 
all over the central part of the United States would make surveillance 
an impossible task and would put enemy spies and saboteurs in a 
position where they could commit acts of depredation in the Midwest. 

The opinion, I believe, insofar as releasing them to the Midwest 
is that if they are released they should be released in large numbers 
in a very concentrated area — that is where they would be in one area 
and would be subject to complete control and surveillance by the 
F. B. I. and the other constituted authorities. 

Mr. MuNDT. You said earlier in your statement that you felt the 
control of the Japanese should be put under the War Department? 

Mr. Beery. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. Will you tell the committee some of your reasons for 
feeling that the present control under the W. R. A. is unsatisfactory? 

Mr. Beery. Yes, sir. The W. R. A., as we understand it, has 
control of the relocation centers where the Japanese are now being 
kept. We have had committees go up to the relocation centers and 
we hear from all sides that the Japanese are being taught by conscien- 
tious objectors, by pacifists and by those who are attempting to have 
the Japanese believe that they are a persecuted minority. 

I wrote to the War Relocation Authority myself sometime ago and 
asked for some source information in regard to the Japanese. I 
received back — I believe it was entitled, "A Bibliography." It may 
have been just a list and not have that title. The shocking thing to 
me in that was that the source information that they gave was the 
same source information that I have found in pacifists' literature and 
Fellowship of Reconciliation literature, people who were obviously in 
favor of the Japanese. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9043 

I received one piece of litei-atiire lliat talked aboul the Japanese 
refugees as if we were treatiiii^ the Japanese the way the Germans 
treated the Poles and I don't tliink that is proper and I am sure the 
Legion doesn't. 

The Legion does not desire any harsh or brutal treatment of the 
Japanese, and in advocating that they be handled by the Army the 
Legion knows that the Army would not be a party to any harsh or 
brutal treatment. They would receive fair and considerate treatment 
but there would be no danger of what I call subversive activities among 
the Japanese. 

Air. MuNDT. That is one reason — you feel that they are being 
treated from the standpoint of social workers and so forth, as a 
persecuted minority. Do you have any other reasons for wanting 
them to be under the control of the Army? 

Mr. Beery. Yes, sir. I didn't amplify sufficiently probably. It is 
our feeling also that subversive activities are being carried on within 
the Japanese relocation centers and that those subversive activities 
are not being properly curbed and controlled by the persons in charge. 

"Sullen I say that I don't want to point my finger to any individual. 
The riot at Manzanar created deep concern and the people on the 
Pacific coast are not quite yet able to understand how that thing could 
have liappened and why it hasn't been more rigidly controlled. 

Subversive activities in the relocation centers we believe would be 
of serious concern, particularly if there was any release of the Japanese 
to the Midwest or any other place. 

Mr. MuNDT. Those are two reasons; have you got any more? 

Mr. Beery. Nothing other than amplification of those particular 
things. 

Mr. MuNDT. Let me ask you whether you and the group you repre- 
sent, the American Legion, whether 3'ou are satisfied with the method 
whereby they failed to segregate in these relocation centers the Kibei 
from the Issei and the Nisei? In other words, no attempt was made 
to segregate the bad Japanese from what I hope aire the good Japanese. 
I imagine that you feel they are all bad? 

Mr. Beery. No; I certainly do not. I am satisfied there are good 
Japanese. I can't put my finger on them. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel the failure to segregate those into camps 
is a bad policy? ; 

Mr. Beery. We certainly do. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel that the relocation centers are wise in the 
method by which they are currently releasing these Japanese at the 
rate of 600 or 800 or a thousand a week? And whereby they pay them 
certain sums of money and buy them a railroad ticket and start them 
ofi' for some destination? 

Mr. Berry. We feel that that is bad for two reasons: Some of 
those that are leaving are going to various universities. They were 
released, so we are advised, after an investigation by the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation. 

Mr. MuxDT. v^^lo advised j'ou as to that? We haven't been able 
to verify that or disprove it? 

Mr. Berry. I think I can give you the place to get accurate infor- 
mation. Clyde Shoemaker, who is a member and was formerly with 
the district attorney's office, communicated with the Federal Bureau 
of Investigation. He told me that he had received a hotter from them 
advising that they had not made a detailed investigation of these 



9044 • UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Japanese ; that in manjT- cases an inquiry had been made as to whether 
they had any record on any particular Japanese, and a check was made 
of that, but that they had not investigated. 

Mr. Shoemaker can be reached — I think he is in the Lincohi Buikhng 
at the present time. He is an attorney. Mr. Steedman knows him 
and I am sure he would be glad to give you the details on that. 

The other group who are being released apparently are being re- 
leased without a proper method of checking after they have been 
released. This is purely hearsay but we are advised that they are 
required to report to the local F. B. I. agent when they arrive at their 
destination. Wliether that is true or false, I don't know, but gentle- 
men, if you have 1,000 Japanese a week going to 1,000 different places 
in the United States you are going to pretty near need 1,000 new agents 
in the various governmental agencies. 

Mr. MuNDT." That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. I have no question. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate very much yom" appearing here to- 
day, Mr. Beery, and to have the Legion represented. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, on May 26, 1943, you heard in ex- 
ecutive session Mr. H. H. Townsend, formerly chief supply and 
transportation officer at the Boston relocation center. 

I have Mr. Townsend's testimony before me at the present time 
and I woidd like to introduce his testimony into the record merely 
for the purpose of making it available to the press. Will the com- 
mittee accept it for that purpose? 

Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, this is the transcript of the testi- 
mony that was given at an executive session before this committee? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And you wish to make that a part of the public 
record of the hearings? 

Mr. Steedman. That is correct. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And this H. H. Townsend is the same individual 
to whom reference has been made from time to time during the 
coiu-se of the testimony before the committee? 

Air. Steedman. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. If there is no objection, the testimony given by 
Mr. Townsend on the 26th of May will be made a part of the public 
records of the committee. 

Mr. Mundt. No objection. 

Mr. Eberharter. No objection. 

Mr. Costello. It is so ordered. 

(The testimony of H. H. Townsend was made a part of this record 
by reference, as follows:) 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee 

To Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif., May 26, 1943. 

The subcommittee met at 2 p. m. in room 1405, Federal Building, Los Angeles, 
Calif., Hon. John M. Costello (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Hon. John M. Costello. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, acting 
counsel. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9045 

Testimony of Harold Haldeman Townsend, Formerly Chief Supply and 
Transportation Officer, Colorado River War Relocation Project, 
Post on, Ariz. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Stkedman. State your full name. 

Mr. Townsend. Harold Haldcman Townsend. 

Mr. Steedman. Where do you live? 

Mr. Townsend. 2402 North Highland Avenue, Hollywood. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you an American citizen? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Where were you born? 

Mr. Townsend. Merrill, Wis. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Mr. Townsend. August 31, 1885. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the United States Army? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Mr. Townsend. 1918. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you serve in France? 

Mr. Townsend. Six months in France. 

Mr. Steedman. What is your present occupation? 

Mr. Townsend. I am working for the Government. 

Mr. Steedman. In a confidential capacity? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please state briefly your educational training? 

Mr. Townsend. I went through grade school and high school in Merrill and 
Madison, Wis., and in Madison went to the University of Wisconsin; and I have 
taken a few courses, night courses, and I spent 2 months at Columbia, and 3 
months in Paris. 

Mr. Steedman. Just after the war? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

j\Ir. Steedman. Will you please give a brief outline of the most important job 
or jobs that you have held? 

Air. Townsend. Well, I was juvenile officer in Indian Territory in Oklahoma 
before statehood. I was chief of police in Tulsa, and became special agent of the 
Standard Oil Co. in the Mid-Continent field for 7 years, having charge of their 
secret-service work in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, and Louisiana. 

I then went overseas, and then came to California as an independent oil pro- 
ducer, and got into the real-estate business and developed three major com- 
munities. Then I became the western district representative of the Independent 
Petroleum Association of America, during which time I served 5 years on the 
pension board, the police and fire pension commission of Los Angeles. Then was 
the assistant State director for the Government on defense training, and was the 
State director for the Government on the in-plant training for defense purposes. 
Then I went to the war relocation camp at Poston, Ariz, as the chief supply and 
transportation officer; then did some special work on the Indian reservation at 
Parker, Ariz., and that brings me up to the present time, at which time I am pre- 
pared to leave for South America. 

Mr. Steedman. When are you leaving for South America? 

Mr. Townsend. Tomorrow night at 10 o'clock on the Pan-American Clipper. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, when did you accept a position with th3 
W. R. A. at Poston, Ariz.? 

Mr. Townsend. Approximately-Julv 25 through the O. E. M. 

Mr. Steedman. Julv 25, 1942?' 

Mr. Townsend. 1942. 

Mr. Steedman. What was your title? 

Mr. Townsend. Chief supply and transportation officer. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you recite briefly what your duties and your respon- 
sibilities were? 

Mr. Townsend. I had charge of the purchasing for the quartermaster, and 
othcrAvise, of all foods, supplies, and equipment used in the entire project. I had 
charge of all of the motor equipment, trucks, cars, tractors, dredges, draglines, 
every type and character, and in addition to that I was in charge of the 180 
warehouses that were filled to capacity with the surplus supplies needed for the 
camps. 



9046 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Stebdman. What was your salary? 

Mr. TowNSEND. $3,800 when I started, and $4,200 when I left. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the director of the W. R. A.? I mean nationally. 

Mr. TowNSEND. Dillon S. Myer. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the project director at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Wade Head. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please name some of his principal assistants? 

Mr. Townsend. His assistant director is Mr. Ralph Gelvin. Mr. John Evans 
is third in command. Mr. Nelson, whose initials I have forgotten, is a roving 
assistant. He is a field man who assists Mr. Head. Mr. Gus Empie is the chief 
administrative officer representing the W. R. A. and the Indian Service, whose 
department I was directly under. I was under Mr. Empie and not Mr. Head. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie was your immediate superior? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Where is Poston, Ariz., located? 

Mr. Townsend. 18 miles south of Parker, Ariz., on the Colorado River Indian 
Reservation. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Bureau of Indian Affairs furnish the land for the Poston 
camp site? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the Bureau of Indian Affairs in any way supervise the 
activities of the camp? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. In what way? 

Mr. Townsend. Having read the agreement made between the W. R. A. and 
the Indian Department, I am a little bit familiar with the arrangements made. 

It was the understanding — from my observation of this contract, it was my 
understanding that the Indian Department would have complete and total charge 
of the camps and the W. R. A. was to supply the money for the agriculture and 
irrigation; and that the Indian Department was to make the appointments of the 
cainp management, and it was to be run under Indian personnel 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, this isn't what happened, is it? 

Mr. Townsend. Partly. 

Mr. Steedman. Partly? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. How far is the Poston camp from Los Angeles? 

Mr. Townsend. About 320 miles down to the first camp. You see, there are 
three camps at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the physical set-up of the Poston 
relocation camp? 

Mr. Townsend. 18 miles south of Parker, 5 miles east of the Colorado River, 
camp No. 1 was constructed, consisting of 800 buildings; 5 miles farther south, 
camp No. 2 was constructed with 400 buildings; and 3 miles farther south, camp 
No. 3, with 400 buildings. All three camps have had modern utilities of all types 
installed. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the barracks air-conditioned? 

Mr. Townsend. A part of them. All of the administration barracks, and a 
part of the other barracks are air-conditioned. 

Mr. Steedman. How many persons can the three camps at Poston accom- 
modate? 

Mr. Townsend. 20,000 is the capacity. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the camp at Poston near adequate water supply? 

Mr. TowNSE"ND. They have excellent water supply. They have their own 
drinking water high pressure system in each camp, in addition to the major canals 
being supplied irrigation water from a very expensive dam on the Colorado River, 
3 miles north of Parker. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that the so-called Parker irrigation dam? 

Mr. Townsend. The Parker Indian Reservation Dam, and north of there we 
have the major large Parker Dam. 

Mr. Steedman. T see. Does the camp have water for swimming pools? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. They have swimming pools in each camp, supplied 
by the irrigation ditches. 

Mr. Steedman. Are these pools in use by the Japanese? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; constantly. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the camp have water for lawns? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. The lawn water is used from the irrigation ditches, 
when the ditches are filled. Otherwise, the other water is used for lawns and some 
agriculture between the barracks. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9047 

Mr. Steedman. Is there enoujjh water available for shrubs and vegetables? 

Mr. TowNSEND. There is an abundance of water for everything. 

Mr. Steedman. Is a new irrigation system being«built at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. » 

Mr. STEEDMA>f. What Government agency is building that system? 

Mr. TowNSEND. The Indian Service has complete charge of thp irrigation 
system. There are some portions of it being put in by contract; bridges, culverts, 
and some dredging or some dragline work has been handled under contract. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what the estimated cost of this project is? 

Mr. TowNSEND. The total camps? 

Mr. Steedman. The estimated cost of the irrigation project. 

Mr. Townsend. No; I don't think they do. I don't think they have completely 
estimated it, because the engineering department, when I was attempting to get 
the figures on the size of it, they were still in a quandry just how far they would 
extend the ditches. It would run into many millions of dollars. 

Mr. Steedman. This project is being built to service the camp at Poston where 
the Japanese live; is that correct? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. The irrigation system wouldn't be necessary if the Japanese 
weren't located at Poston, would it? 

Mr. Townsend. Not except that they are planning to irrigate the agricultural 
land that the Japanese are expected to handle. 

Mr. Steedman. In building the irrigation system, are they using Japanese labor? 

Mr. Townsend. Very little. The majority is being put in by Indians under 
the Indian engineer, Rupkey. The land is being cleared partly by the Japanese 
labor. 

Mr. Steedman. What is the rate of pay for the Japanese labor? 

Mr. Townsend. S19 a month. 

Mr. Steedman. From your observation, are the Japanese good and conscient- 
ious workers? 

Mr. Townsend. They are not. They are very poor labor. They will not work 
more than 2 or 3 hours a day, and loaf during that period of time, and they very 
frankly state that they don't intend to work, as it is a benefit to their country by 
holding up all progress. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, do you know how much it cost to build the 
camps at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. The construction of the camps, the lumber cost? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Townsend. The cost of the lumber, according to our records, was $8,300,- 
000, using 34,000,000 feet. But that was only a very small portion of the cost, 
because in addition to that we had the plumbing utilities, and roads, and various 
other things added to that cost. 

INIr. Steedman. Does the camp have streets? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes; all beautifully graded and partly hard-surfaced "^streets. 

Mr. Steedman. And sewers? 

]Mr. Townsend. Sewers, electric lights, water, party telephone. 

]\Ir. Steedman. Do they have a hospital at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Thej- have a very fine hospital, a verj' large hospital, modern 
in every respect; large enough to handle approximately 600 people, and it is 
usually filled. 

Mr. Steedman. Are there doctors and nurses? 

Mr. Townsend. A complete staff of doctors and nurses. There is the Cau- 
casian doctor and partly Caucasian nurses, and the balance are Japanese doctors 
and Japanese nurses. 

Mr. Steedman. In summing up the three camps at Poston, have all of them 
modern conveniences? 

Mr. Townsend. Complete in every detail, with every modern convenience 
that we could put into such a development, and very superior to many of our 
modern Army camps. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, were the mess halls under j'our jurisidction? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. There were 78 mess halls, complete in ever}' detail. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall how much food was consumed daily? 

Mr. Townsend. We, by actual count, supplied 58 tons of subsistence per day. 

Mr. Steedman. Fifty-eight tons of food? 

Mr. Townsend. In 78 mess halls, using 58 tons of food daily. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you mind giving us that in detail? 

Mr. Townsend. In the 3 camps there are 78 mess halls, using 58 tons of 
food daily, the finest quality that money can buy, all grade A, top brands. 



9048 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. How is the food purchased? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Part of it is purchased through the Quartermaster's Depart- 
ment under contract, and pairt of it is purchased on the open niarliet. 

Mr. Steedman. You were in charge- of the actual supply of the food to the 
various mess halls; is that correct? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you able to obtain sufficient food to feed the Japanese? 

Mr. TowNREND. We obtained sufficient food in wasteful quantifies, but could 
not satisfy the Japanese. And by "wasteful quantities," I mean this: that we 
were expected to comply with the menus furnished us b}' the W. R,. A., and the 
quarterm.aster's contracts were made on that basis, and the food was sent to us 
constantly on the basis of the contracts, and our chief steward checked the per- 
sonnel and added to or deducted from the amoimt of food needed. And, of course, 
the food bought on the open market was bought where the quarte^ma^ter couidn't 
fill the needed orders. 

Mr. Steedman. The amount of the food and the type of food was determined 
by the W. R. A. in Washington; is that correct? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Largely so, yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there any plan at the camp as to the amount and type of 
food that you would serve the Japanese? 

Mr. TowNSEND. We made plans according to Japanese requests. Frequently 
it would be contrary to W. R. A. menus, but the W. R. A. did not take into con- 
sideration the fact that we were feeding two types of people, the Japanese people, 
who would eat nothing but the Japanese food, arid the American Japanese, who 
would eat nothing but American food, and being compelled to have the two types 
of food complicated our supply program to the point where we had considerable 
leeway in making orders other than those called for under the W. R. A. menus. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it necessary to cook for two different types of individuals? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Absolutely. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall about how much bread was consumed daily 
at Poston? 

Mr. TowNSEND. We purchased 3,750 pounds of bread daily. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese, as a rule, eat much bread? 

Mr. Townsend. They are not great bread eaters. The majority of this bread 
was dried and stored away. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the purpose of the Japanese hoarding the bread? 

Mr. Townsend. They stated that they were hoarding food, bread and other 
supplies, for parachute troops and for invasion forces. 

Mr. Steedman. I will ask you this question, Mr. Townsend: How was this 
food hoarded or stored? 

Mr. Townsend. The information that was furnished me by certain friendly 
groups was that they had placed different types of emergency food in secret 
cellars under the mess halls for the invasion armies and parachute troopers. 
But in addition to that that they had large caches of food throughout the desert, 
buried, that could be used for similar jourposes. And this information was 
furnished by friendly Japanese who were endeavoring to get special favors, and 
we were constantly trying to find out what was happening to certain supplies, 
and we always had a number of Japanese that would give us information for an 
exchange of favors. 

Mr. Steedman. I will ask you this question, How did you obtain your 
information? 

Mr. Townsend. We developed a corps of younger Japanese boys, through 
their ambitious desire to drive equipment, to furnish information on the theft 
and loss of supplies, particularly between the Parker rail head and the camps, 
and through these informants we developed a number of older Japanese people 
who would, for special favors, give us information relative to thefts and activities 
that were coming up in the camp area. We constantly had probably 15 or 20 
informants that kept us advised as to certain storages within the camp area. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, was any attempt made to stop this practice 
by the camp authorities? 

Mr. Townsend. At numerous times we had these thieves caught, and produced 
evidence and information about the process of the entire thieving ring. The 
matter was placed before Mr. Empie, and Mr. Head, and Mr. Gelvin, and the 
M. P. authorities, and it was always stopped, because there was no way that 
they could see that we would be benefited by trying to prosecute them. We 
then established a daily loss of approximately $500 through the thefts within 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9049 

tlie camp, wliicli was agreed upon by all of us, and even at tliat they would jiot 
take any action toward prosecution. 

Now, then, pardon me. Off the record. 

Mr. Steedmax. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Steedman. I will ask you this question, Mr. Townsend: What was 
happening to the stolen goods? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. Well, through the informants we checked on many of the 
thefts, and we found that there were two systems. One was to imload certain 
portions of the trucks lietwcen the warehouse or the railhead at Parker and the 
camps, which stuff would be picked up later by some cooperating theft group, 
and the other system was to uidoad it from the warehouse and take it out of the 
camps through the irrigation ditch program, past the guards on the highway. 

The only guards around the camp were two guards at the north gate of the 
camp on the main highway, and two guards on the south of the camp on the 
main highway. That left son:e 15 or 20 gates out of the camp which the con- 
struction workers were using, particularly the irrigation ditch people; and the 
Japanese having complete charge of the warehouses and supplies and the sub- 
sistence movement to the mess halls, they would load out of the warehouse more 
than they expected to take to the mess halls. They would have an overload, and 
would pile it up at certain spots, and then one of the other trucks would take it 
to the waiting truck, and wotdd move it outside the camp. 

Mr. Steedman. There was collusion then between the Japanese at the ware- 
houses and the Japanese on the trucks? 

Mr. TowxsEXD. They were all the same. The.y were exchanging all the time. 
Another tmfortunate thing was that we never had a system of knowing one 
Jap from another. They passed the guards under the same pass. We would 
pass the warehouse truckers going up to Parker, and there woidd be one group 
todaj' and another group tomorrow, and they interchanged through the whole 
system. That was true in all of our work down there. We had no way of check- 
ing except only the ones we knew personally. 

Mr. CosTELLo. The pass didn't have a photograph of the individual or any 
identification of him on it? 

Mr. TowxsEXD. They had no permit of any kind, except just writing their 
names on a piece of paper, say, 25 down in a line, and you wouldn't know 25 Japs 
that went out today from 25 others that went out tomorrow, except the ones that 
we knew as our personal assistants. 

Mr. Stekdmax. Mr. Townsend. turning to the supervision of the mess halls, I 
believe you have stated that the W. 11. A. in Washington sent out the menus for 
you to follow at Poston; is that correct? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedmax. Were these mentis followed to the letter? 

Mr. TowxsEXD. No, they were not; due to the fact that the menu only set up 
food for one group of people, and the Nisei or the American-born Japanese would 
not eat the Japanese-prepared food, and the Japanese-born people would not eat 
the American food. Se we had to build two menus, and the American-born 
Japane.se had to have American food, and the Japanese people had to have 
Japanese food. 

Mr. Steedmax. Are you familiar with the food being served in the Army at the 
present time? , 

Mr. TowxsEXD. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedmax. Was the food that you served to the Japanese at foston as 
good or better than that being served to the Army? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. It was superior in every way, and I can make that statement 
from this standpoint: Prior to going to Poston, for 2 months I was working on 
supplies for Army camps, both Navy and the Army, and I contacted every camp 
and every naval base in southern California from the supply and food standpoint. 
And I make that statement for this reason : I was associated with the Associated 
Dairies and had contact with a group of men who are developing a $25,000,000 
corporation to raise supplies and produce for the Army and Navy, and I am the 
one who made the contracts between the Army and the Navy and these people, 
and therefore visited every supply representative in southern California for the 
Army and Navy before I went to Poston. 

Then I found that there was a very great difference between the food supplied 
to the Army and the Japanese. I estimated that the Japanese food was about 
25 percent better than that to the Army. 

Mr. Steedmax. How much cash allowance was allowed per day, per Japanese? 

Mr. Townsend. Forty-five cents per person, including all the infants. 



9050 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese served ice cream at Poston? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Yes, sir. We had ice cream brought to us every day from 
the Golden State Creamery Co. 

Mr. Steedman. And milk? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Our milk orders ran from 8,000 to 12,000 quarts of homo- 
genized milk every day. 

Mr. Steedman. Where did you obtain the milk from? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Golden State Creamery Co. 

Mr. Steedman. And butter? 

Mr. TowNSEND. We had the finest grade of Challenge butter, and other high- 
grade butter that we could buy. 

Mr. Steedman. Fruit? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Fruit was the finest type, individually wrapped; the finest 
packed fruit that the markets would provide. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there plenty of meat and sausage of all kinds supplied? 

Mr. TowNSEND. The finest cuts and grade A meats; quarters and full car- 
casses of lambs and pork, and the best cuts of beef were brought in; on an average 
of one refrigerator car a day. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that all of it was of the very best grade? 

Mr. TowNSEND. The finest grade that we could get. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the grade of food better than that obtained by our own 
citizens in the markets and stores? 

Mr. Townsend. Very much better than you can buy in the open market. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did they ever have any shortages at Poston of any commod- 
ities, while you were there? 

Mr. Townsend. No, sir. Mr. Costello, we ordered 60 to 90 days ahead, and 
we did once i;i a while have some mishap that threw us a little short on somelhiiig,. 
but we alwa . s had supplies in the warehouse. On some of the perishable things — 
for instance, I condemned a carload. We were in the habit of receiving large 
quantities of bad order vegetables. Each carload had a number of cases of 
ratten stuff i'l ii, ai d I put a man specially to check the cars, and he found out 
that they were all pushing it too strong, and I condemned the whole caiload. 
And when we condemn a carload of fresh vegetables, it would set us back a little 
bit, until we got straightened out, but we always had an ample supply in the 
warehouse. 

Mr. Costello. But you never did have, like we had in California, an actual 
meat shortage, where you didn't have enough to go around? 

Mr. Townsend. There never was a shortage. We have two big refrigerators, 
refrigerator warehouses, and each warehouse will take two or three carloads of 
meats, and then at the Parker rail head we have an enormous refrigerator ware- 
house system, where we can handle two or three carloads, so we always had pleritv 
of fresli meat aliead; And then we got carloads, every week we had several 
carloads of fine wrapped hams and cases of sausages, and all of the various kiads 
of meat, tliat we kept for emergency purposes. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, did you keep any rough figures on the number 
of tons of food wasted daily at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. We were working on the agricultural supplies, and. 
in checking up the number df hogs that we might put in, we estimated the amount 
of garbage that could be used, set up a salvage plant where we would keep gar- 
bage, and for thg,t reason had to know the amount of garbage we had and the 
size of the plant we needed to build, so we made a very careful check for a period 
of a mont^h, 30 days, and we estimated that we were averaging approximately 10 
tons of garl>age per day. We figured there was — after going into it very care- 
fully, we figured that there was approximately 7 tons of that food that could be 
used. 

Mr. Steedm.\n. Didn't the chef ever serve any left-overs? 

Mr. Townsend. The Japanese chefs did not serve left-overs. 

Mr. Steedman. What was done with the garbage? 

Mr. Townsend. Sir? 

Mr. Steedman. \^ hat was done with the garbage? 

Mr. Townsend. It was taken — we would load it onto equipment and dig 
ditches and throw it into the ditches and cover it up. 

Mr. Steedman. What happened with reference to the idea of feeding it to the 
hogs? 

Mr. Townsend. Up until January 30 there was nothing done at all. About 
January 30, Washington wrote the director and asked him how many hogs thay 
had to use the 9 or 10 tons of garbage that we had in the camp, and we had been 
out trying to buy hogs, and yve had every hog in southern California — throu_gh 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9051 

this same group that was buildinji this $25,000,000 corporation, we had every 
hog farm and every cattle farm tabulated, and we knew all the hogs available, 
so he had this hog man check the hogs, and at the time the letter was received 
there wasn'i a hog in the camp. They then, without any knowledge on the 
part of the supply department, ordered in two hmidred 200-pound hogs, and they 
answered Washington by telling them that we had 200 hogs. 

I would like to enlarge a little bit upon that. If you know anything about 
hogs, you know you wouldn't want to start feeding 2b0-pound hogs. They are 
ready for the market. They bought two hundred 200-pound hogs and paid 25 
cents a pound for them. The same hered of hogs, as listed in the market, could 
have been bought for 17 cents a pound, and they were hogs that we were consider- 
ing buying for butchering for pork. They were too old to be handled for feeders, 
and that order should have been for hogs that would have cost $10 or $15, to 
feed the garbage to, instead of paying 25 cents a pound. Now they have this 
number of hogs down there, weighing 300 or 400 pounds, and they are not fit 
for anything except lard. 

Mr. Steedman. Who was responsible for that? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Well, Mr. Mathieson is in charge of the stores and the 
agriculture. 

Mr. Steedmax. Do you have his full name? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I think it is H. A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you offhand. 
Under Mr. Mathieson is Mr. Sharp, handling the agriculture, and in collusion 
with Mr. Nelson, Mr. Sharp and Mr. Mathieson, by orders from Mr. Head, were 
told to get the hogs in there, so he could answer that letter from Washington, 
and somehow Iney got hold of this unusual purchase, paying 25 cents a pound. 
And the warehouse record will show that, that there are 200 hogs, weighing 200 
pounds apiece, for which they paid 25 cents a pound. That is the most ridiculous 
purchase of hogs I ever heard of, for garbage consumption. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, how many warehouses did you say were 
under vour jurisdiction at Poston? 

Mr. "TowxsEXD. 180. 

Mr. Steedman. 180? 

Mr. Townsend. 180 warehouses. 

Mr. Steedman. Were you in direct charge of the warehouses? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedm.\n. How many Japanese were employed in the warehouses? 

Mr. Townsend. 2,700, I believe, in the — now, wait a minute. In the ware- 
houses, no. I think there were 

Mr. Steedman. An approximation will be all right. 
■ Mr. Townsend. There were 680 Japanese and 4 white supervisors in the 
warehouses. 

Mr. Steedman. In addition to the food stored in the warehouses, what else 
was stored there? 

Mr. Townsend. There v.ere supplies and equipment of every conceivable 
type in the numerous \\arehouses. The C. C. C. had sent in hundreds of car- 
loads of miscellaneous equipment, and before I arrived, a third of the warehouses 
were filled with miscellaneous food supplies, canned goods and otherwise, and there 
were shipments of furniture, the finest upholstered furniture, ice boxes, electric ice 
boxes, air conditioners, supplies, and all sorts of machinery; tractors, trucks, mis- 
cellaneous equipment, far too nvnnerous to mention, for every purpose under 
the sun. We had warehouses that we moved the stuff into and locked up, anfl 
they hadn't been opened for months, because it was just miscellaneous equipment. 
We didn't know what it was. 

]Mr. Steedman. Why was it stored at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. It was assigned to the W. R. A., and for purposes that we didn't 
know. 

Now, as for the furniture, of course, the Poston development includes a very 
marvelous Caucasian personnel center. The plan showed 54 modern bungalows, 
and 2 dormitories, 3 stories, one for women and one for men, and the administra- 
tion hones, which wovild cost some\\herc t)etween fifteen and twenty thous?,ud 
dollars. There were to be 4 of them, and a beautiful park area, with swimming 
pools, and so forth. And this furniture was purchased for that purpose, to fur- 
nish those. It was all bought from Barker Bros., and the prices on it were n >t 
reasonable. They were very, very high in consideration of the many, ma ly 
carloads. We must have had, oh, at least 20 carloads of that type of furniture. 
Mr. Steedman. When was that received? 

Mr. Townsend. \A"ell, it was received at intervals, all the way from before I 
arrived, aixi it was coming in up until September, including rugs. We had one 



9052 UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

or two cases of rugs, large rugs, beautiful rugs, 40 feet by 20 feet, and dozens 
and dozens of very fine rugs of smaller dimensions; a whole warehouse filled 
with beautiful rugs. 

Mr. Steedman. They plan to be comfortable down there? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Very comfortable. They have the finest furniture I have ever 
been used to, and I had some pretty good furniture. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Who is responsible for that furniture? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Well, the camp director ordered it, of course, but he must have 
had the approval from scfmeone higher than that. And there were other things. 
However, it wasn't necessary to get the approval, and if you will let me divert a 
little bit, I will do so. 

Somebody came into Los Angeles and ordered some 20 or 30 dump trucks 
through a Jewish firm down here on Alameda. I inspected the dump trucks, 
because they were strictly under my department, and I told them that I wouldn't 
pay thein one-third of the price of the trucks, that the trucks were a fleet that had 
been sent up in some shipment from some big construction firm that had 
worn them out, and they had been given a coat of black paint, and that they 
wouldn't be any good at all for our road work. We had an order to put the 
military highway through, and these trucks were to be used on that. The trucks 
were charged to us at $2,400 apiece. They were not worth $400 apiece, so I 
refused to approve the order. 

Mr. Empie refused to approve the order on my suggestion, and they then sent 
someone else over here, and they looked at the trucks, and this man refused to 
accept them at that price. Somehow later on the purchase order was issued 
through the procurement department for the trucks, and the trucks were tried 
to be delivered over there. They had to be towed in, and they paid $80,000 for 
the worthless trucks, and they are sitting in the junk yard over there. So it 
isn't alwaj's a need for Washington approval of major purchases. That fleet of 
trucks was purchased without it. 

Then there is another thing that occurs to me. We were very anxious to get 
school busses. We brought in — we had 400 teachers, and we had a big school 
program under way, so I lined up school busses through the Fred Harvey pro- 
gram, the only busses available at the Grand Canyon. They had beautiful 
equipment up there, Pierce-Arrow equipment, that we were to get at $3,000 a 
bus; large, fine, de luxe equipment. After I left there, they bought a bus in 
Phoenix and paid $3,700 for it, that had been sitting on a lot for 2 years. 

I looked up the transportation man, the Government transportation man, 
I have forgotten his name, but I was trying to buy the busses through Los Angeles, 
and I went to Phoenix, and he referred me to all of the equipment in that district. 
This bus had been sitting there for 2 years, and it was just a wreck, and was a 
piece of junk. So we did as we pleased, and we didn't need to have approval. 
That is why I am merely mentioning these items, and there are hundreds of other 
items. 

Mr. Steedman. Going back to the fleet of dump trucks bought in Los Angeles, 
do you recall the name of the firm those trucks were purchased from? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I think it was Finkelstein. Finkelstein is another one of 
the swindlers that we bought hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment 
from — this firm of Finkelstein, and always there was a kick-back to the procure- 
ment representative. 

Mr. Steedman. Is Finkelstein located in Los Angeles? 

Mr. TowNSEND. He is here; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Is that his firm name? 

Mr. Townsend. Finkelstein & Co., one of these big salvage companies. 

Mr. Steedman. He sold a lot of material to the camp? 

Mr. Townsend. Hundreds of thousands of dollars' 'worth. He furnished the 
water pipe, and all of the metal and steel work, and all of that stuff. We bought 
a lot of stuff from him, and the records show before I got there that he had been 
supplying everything, and his prices were terrific for old junk, and much of it is 
over there as junk, although much of it has been used. 

Mr. Steedman. Whom did he deal with directly? 

Mr. Townsend. He went through the procurement department, Mr. Palmer. 

Mr. Steedman. At Poston? , 

Mr. Townsend. He is at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Palmer have authority to deal directly with Mr. 
Finkelstein? 

Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. And Mr. Nelson, I believe, was the contact man 
with Mr. Fred Finkelstien. 

Mr. Steedman. Do vou know Mr. Nelson's first name? 



UN-A^IERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9053 

jNIr. TowxsKXD. I do not. I can't be sure of that. 

Mr. Steedmax. Going back to the supervision of the warehouses, the four 
white men that were sui^ervisors under you, did you consider them to be honest 
and relial)le? 

^[r. TowxsEXD. Not all of thorn. There was one man that was wholly de- 
pendable and reliable, but he didn't have very much authority. 

Mr. Steedm.\x. What is his naxne? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Bert Vatcher. He is 100 percent. The fact is, he was my 
warehouse informant. 

Mr. Wickersham was the chief wareliouse officer, and is a nice, fine man, but 
he didn't have an\' authority at all. Thej^ stripped him of every bit of authority, 
and he is merely holding his job because he is safe, and he is very afraid to talk. 

Mr. Steedman. You say "they." You are referring to Mr. Head and Mr. 
Empie? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. Yes. He just hasn't any say at all, yet he is in charge, he is 
the chief warehouseman. Then the other men are not responsible men at all, 
and they are not honest. While I was there, I lost one man, who went into the 
service, and we employed other men; that is, I didn't. Mr. Head employed 
other men, and thej' are not reliable men at all. In other words, the men can't 
be reliable when the thefts and the conditions are as they are in the warehouse, 
and these men have to close their e,ves to it; and when they don't say anything 
about it, we know they are in collusion with the Japanese. 

Mr. Steedmax. You said there were 680 Japanese working in the warehouses? 

Mr. Townsexd. Yes; there had been. 

Mr. Steedmax. Do they control the warehouses? 

Mr. Townsexd. Everything. 

Mr. Steedmax. And distribute all of the material? 

'Sir. Townsexd. The system is this: We have a card systein, and when goods 
are received, they are supposed to l:»e requisitioned out, and the requisition system 
is a farce. There was no way of correcting it, because it was the policy to let the 
old system continue. 

For instance, if _\ ou wanted from Warehouse 1,10 mattresses or 100 mattresses, 
or 1,000, whatever it was, you would go down and get the mattresses. Then if 
\ou happened to think about it, there would be a requisition put through. The 
requisition should be approved by the proper authorities; if they were available, 
they approved it. If they were not available, they didn't approve it. If they 
wanted to Tiia.ke a requisition, they made it. If the\ didn't want to make it they 
didn't make it. 

Mr. Steedmax. And the material was all in the hands of the Japanese? 

Mr. Towxsexd. Yes. You would see 10 trucks leaving the warehouse loaded, 
and at the beginning I wasn't concerned a great deal about it. I presumed when 

1 went down there that everything was in good order. It took me 30 days to 
find out there was no system/ and it took me several months to try to break m 
some system, and they^ wouldn't tolerate it. I insisted on an inventory being 
taken, and I wanted a "perpetual inventory for the entire camp, and they overrode 
me on that. 

Mr. Steedmax. Who is "thev"? 

Mr. Towxsexd. Mr. Erapie, Mr. Head, Mr. Gclvm, Mr. Nelson, and Mr 
Evans. I wanted to import some expert warehouseman and take an inventory 
of the entire warehouse system, and I came in and got hold of Mr. Green of the 
O. E. M. and started getting warehousemen lined up. I went back and found 
out that Mr. Empie and Mr. Head had given orders to the .warehousemen to 
start the inventory, and have the inventory taken by the Japanese, and it was a 
big joke. Tlie Japanese themselves came to me and laughed about it, and told 
me what they were doing. Then is when Mr. Vatcher came in, and for your 
information, if you want a goori. clean-cut man, and, of course, he wants to hold 
his job, but if you want a good, clean-cut man, Bert Vatcher will give you the 
information. ^Ir. Wickersham won't, because he is afraid; he doesn't want to 
lose his job. 

Mr. Steedmax. Perhaps we had better recess for a minute. We have been 
going rather steadily. 

{A short recess was taken.) 

Mr. Steedmax. Mr. Townsend, how were supplies shipped to Poston? 

Mr. Towxsexd. We received a major part by rail and part by truck. 

Mr. Steedman. Do vou recall how many carloads of supplies were received 
daily? 

Mr. Towxsexd. Yes. We received approximately 10 cars, railroad cars, and 

2 trucks and trailers a day. 

Mr. Steedman. Where were these supplies received? 

62626 — 43— vol. lo 15 



9054 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIvft?IES 

Mr. TowNSEND. The railroad supplies were received at the warehouse at 
Parker, and the trucks were received at the warehouse at Poston. 
Mr. Steedman. There is a rail head at Parker; is that right? 
Mr. TowNSEND. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Are there warehouses located at the rail head? 
Mr. Townsend. Yes. We have a system of eight warehouses, 40 by 100, at 
the rail head. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, did you see such things stored at the terminal 
as grade A beef, whole hogs, lambs, ham, bacon, iced lettuce, carloads of 1-pound 
packs of butter, carloads of cheese, and so forth? 
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; constantly. 

Mr. Steedman. Was this shipped in to feed the Japanese who were located at 
Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you ever hear the Japanese at Poston make a statement 
that they received better food inside the camp than they did when they went out? 
Mr. Townsend. Yes. We shipped out several hundred Japanese for agricul- 
tural purposes into the Central and Northern States, and when these men would 
come back, they would come in and they would tell us that they were very happy 
toget back into the camp, because their treatment on the outside and their food 
and accommodations were so inferior that they were an.xious to get back and 
stay, and they would not leave the camp any more. 
Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the term, Kibei? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. That is the American-born Japanese educated 

Mr. Steedman. Educated in Japan, and who came back here? 
Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many of those there were down at Poston? 
Mr. Townsend. Well, I wouldn't know exactly. We figured that we had 
about, between four and five hundred of those Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Did j'ou ever hear any of the Kibei boast that the Japanese 
educational system was a better system than ours? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. All of them would tell you very definitely that the 
men who went to Japan and who were educated there were far superior to the 
men who were educated in America. 

Mr. Steedman. Were maiiy of these Kibei on the internal police force? 
Mr. Townsend. I didn't get that. 

Mr. Steedman. I asked you, were many of the Kibei on the internal police 
force? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes; a large number of them were. 

Mr. Steedman. They composed the so-called goon squads that you have 
referred to? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. The police force was largely built up of the gestapo, 
as I have called them, because they tell you that they have trained under the 
German agents, and they were, in my estimation, the men that were guilty of the 
malicious beating up and all the malicious agitation in the camp, because the 
police force would not permit any decent American-born Japanese to take part, 
because he might expose some of their under-cover work. 

Mr. Steedman. These so-called strong-arm squads visited the various camp 
officials from time to time, did they? 

Mr. Townsend. They were in their offices all the time. In fact, they con- 
trolled and domineered them all the time. 
Mr. Steedman. Did they ever visit you? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; they visited me and made demands that were never 
met, particularly during the strike. 

Mr. Steedman. While you were at Poston, was there any official investigation 
made of the conditions at the camp? 

Mr. Townsend. I don't know that I understand what you mean, but there were 
lots of different delegations, from your Department and from different sources, 
would come into the camp for the purpose of looking the camp over. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head know when the delegations were to come? 
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; he would be notified in advance either by wire or 
. telephone, or thev would write him a letter. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he confer with the staff regarding the coming investiga- 
tions? 

Mr. Townsend. Very frequently. He would call us together and state that 
certain delegations were coming in and asked us to prepare for the procedure. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9055 

Mr. Steedman. So the investigators only saw what Mr. Head and the camp 
officials wanted to show them? 

Mr. TowNSBND. That is what he did. He would take charge of them, and 
when they came to the gate, he would be no titled by the guards and usually got 
in the car with them and stayed with them while they were there. 

Mr. Steeumax. Do you think it is possible for an investigator to obtain the 
full and complete facts of what is going on at Poston if Mr. Head and the officials 
knows he is there? 

Mr. Tow.NsEND. He will not get the facts, either from the Japanese or from 
any of the Caucasians, unless they go in as employees unknown to Mr. Head. 

^Ir. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, are yon familiar with the school svstem inside 
Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Very well, yes. sir. I helped set it up and had much to do 
with the equipping of all of the buildings. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is the head of the educational department at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Mr. Gary. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about Mr. Gary's background? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. Mr. Gary and most of the Caucasion staff were imported 
from Honolulu, and he was the principal of the McKinley High School there. 

Mr. Steedman. Why were they brought in, do you know? 

Mr. Townsend. Sir? 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know why they were brought here from Honolulu? 

Mr. Towsend. I only have my own per,^onal ideas why. I never did hear 
definitely why they were brought in, but he told me frequentlj'^ that he was one 
of the few men that understood the Japanese and got along with them. 

^Ir. Steedman. Was that Mr. Gary who said that? 

Mr. Townsend. Mr. Garj\ Dr. Miles Gary is his title, and Miss Findley, 
who is the head of the welfare department, has some very definite pull in Wash- 
ington, and she wields a very heavy stick, and is a very vicious Japanese supporter. 
Dr. Miles Gary and Miss Findley were friends in Honolulu, and they came over 
together and brought over most of the staff from the McKinley High School. 

Mr. Steedman. How many teachers are there at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. There are 100 Gaucasions, and 200 or more Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the teachers at Poston had to be 
passed on by the Arizona Board of Education? 

Mr. Townsend. At any time? 

Mr. Steedman. At any time. 

Mr. Townsend. No, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Does the curriculum in the school follow the same curriculum 
they have in the public schools in the State of Arizona? 

Sir. Townsend. No; it is a little different. It is entirely set up in the camp 
under Dr. Gary, and doesn't follow even the textbooks. I had to get the textbooks 
and have thern delivered. The textbooks were not the Arizona textbooks. Most 
of them were shipped in, and part of them were secured through the Los Angeles 
school authorities. 

Mr. Steedman. Were textbooks bought through the purchasing office? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, do you know anything about the purchase of 
the textbooks? 

Mr. Townsend. I know about the purchase of them. I don't know what 
they were. I know how they were purchased, and under what system they were 
purchased. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please state that for the record? 

Ml. Townsend. Well, Dr. Gary and his assistant, Miss — her name has slipped 
my mind — they drew up the plan of education and put it into effect, and the 
textbooks were ordered — part of them were shipped in from Honolulu and part 
of them were ordered through the school board in Los Angeles, and then a rnimber 
of them were secured from various other schools throughout southern Galifornia. 
They were discarded school books that we were asked to go out and pick up, 
and I had a letter from Dr. Gary asking me to pick up textbooks from at least 
8 or 10 different communities around Gahfornia. 

Mr. Steedman. How many hours a day did the Japanese children go to school? 

Mr. Townsend. Six. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the schools go through the high school? 

Mr. Townsend. They were laying the foundation for the high school. There 
was a high school to be built, but there is no high school there yet. 



9056 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that the teachers tried to curry favor with 
the Japanese; is that correct? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Oh, yes. The teachers are all very, very friendly, and the 
Japanese peoiDle are highly educated or instructed in Japanese doctrines. Many 
of them are Japanese teachers and Japanese professors, and I have attended 
many meetings — in fact, I have spoken at 8 or 10 meetings — where they were 
discussing problems within the camp, and I have heard Japanese professors 
make talks that were far superior to Dr. Gary's. And then we had about 600 
university men in the camp, and many of those men have taken post-graduate 
courses in Japan, and they are nearly all on the school staff, either supervisory 
or otherwise, and many of them are teachers. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, do you happen to know whether the Japanese language 
is taught in the schools? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I know that they do teach the Japanese language. When we 
started over there we would not permit the paper to be printed in Japanese, but 
after the schools started under Dr. Gary, he made some effort to get a part of the 
paper printed in the Japanese language, and it is now part English and part 
Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the name of the newspaper? 

Mr. Townsend. Well, it is the Poston — it started out as the Poston News. 
Now it is the Poston Chronicle, and I have a complete file of that paper, and in 
that paper in many instances they definitely challenge the American ideas, and 
very often I have had the Japanese part of it read to me when somebody would 
say, "Did you hear what is in Japanese in the paper?" And I would have it read, 
and they would discount American ideas and American standards, and usually 
that part was in Japanese. I have a complete file of that paper. 

Mr. Steedman. Who was responsible for the paper? Was it a Caucasian 
employee? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. Mr. James — what the dickens is his first name? He is 
the American man, but he didn't have anything to do with it. I will tell you whj' 
I say that. Mr. James is supposed to have served as the intelligence officer. 

Mr. Steedman. For what? 

Mr. Townsend. For the property or for the camps, or I don't know who. 
They call him and he signs himself as intelligence officer. I don't know whether 
he is under the Intelligence Department or not, but he is also carried in the 
heading of the paper as the editor-in-chief. But he has little to do with it and it 
is totally handled by the Japanese. In other words, if something comes up, 
James will say immediately, "Well, I don't have anything to do with the paper." 

Mr. Steedman. Would you furnish the committee with copies of the paper? 

Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. Many of them are very worthwhile. They are in 
stories, but there are many cases in there, many articles where they tell the camp 
director what he is going to have to do, and so forth and so on. 

Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of the agriculture at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Mi-. Sharp, under Mr. Mathieson. 

Mr. Steedman. How many men does he have working under him? 

Mr. Townsend. If any Caucasians at all, he had 1 or 2, but he probably had 
200 or 300 Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Was his department run efficiently? 

Mr. Townsend. Run what? 

Mr. Steedman. Was it run efficiently? 

Mr. Townsend. No. His department was really not run. They were just 
trying to get it in order. Thej^ had spent 8 months and had about 10,000 agricul- 
tural men, and there was nothing done except for the little agriculture between the 
barracks. So we felt that the agricultural department was rather a farce. I don't 
think Mr. Sharp was much of an organizer. He was a pretty good farmer, but he 
wasn't an organizer, didn't know how to handle that type of men. And Mr. 
Mathieson is a political product who is far removed from having any knowledge at 
all upon that subject. I don't know where he hails from, but I don't think he 
would know a potato from an apple. He is that kind of a fellow. He has no idea 
of agriculture. And this man Sharp is just a good, common farmer that has no 
idea of putting into force any program or policy. The land is cleared, the water 
is there, and the equipment, several hundred pieces of equipment. That is per- 
haps in use now, I don't know, but it was sitting there for months, tractors, and. 
everything else. 

By the way, that story in the paper up in Denver about the kids using the 
tractors to play with — did you see that article? 

Mr. Steedman. No, I didn't. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9057 

Mr. TowNSEND. It is true. They used the tractors until we impounded them 
for pla.vthings. We finally took all the equipment away from them, and pretty 
nearly blew up the camp in doing so, because all the fine equipment was just being 
used as a medium of playing around the camp. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any produce raised around the camj) and used there? 

Mr. TowNSEND. There wasn't when I left there. If there was, it was put in 
there since. There should have been. The water was there and the land was 
there, but Sharp didn't have any push at all, and Mr. Mathieson didn't seem to 
care. The other men were not agricultural men and didn't give a darn. The 
camp should be self-supporting from an agricultural standpoint. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, do you think that the camp is adequately 
policed? 

Mr. Townsend. I didn't get that. 

Mr. Steedman. I mean by that is there a sufficient police force there to keep 
order? 

Mr. Townsend. They have no Caucasian police force at all. Mr. Miller is 
serving as the chief of the internal security department. 

Mr. Steedman.- Did they ever build a fence around the camp? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, they did. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the purpose of the fence? 

Mr. Townsend. The War Department ordered the camps fenced, and they 
built a very elaborate fence around camp 3, and around camp 2, which was con- 
trary to the Japanese ideas. 

Through Mrs. Findley and Mr. Powell of the Social Service Department, they 
created a great deal of agitation among the Japense and circulated petitions to 
stop the fence being put in, but the War Department ordered the fence, and they 
continued to put it in under contract. Then as the fence was being built the 
Japanese started tearing it down. Then the paper came out with a full page 
editorial asking the Japanese not to tear the fence down, that they were sure they 
would have it removed. 

The fence was built primarily for a stockade. It was built with 10- or 12-foot 
posts and 4 or 6 wires were put on, so that it could easily be made into a con- 
centration camp, which was the thought, I think. After the fence was up about 
a month the Japanese started pulling the posts out and cutting the wire down, and 
inside of 6 mouths the entire fence was removed around both camps. Then the 
engineers went in and put in a 3-wire fence along the highway to keep the Indian 
stock out. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what it cost to build that fence? 

Mr. Townsend. The engineers told me they had put $100,000 into the con- 
tract, in addition to 15,000 or 20,000 posts, and when they built the fence along 
the highway, they built a different type of fence. 

The fence was completed, however, under a sort of a lull, or, the fences around 
the two camps were finished, and then they were completely taken out, every single 
post and the wire, and now there is no fence around either camp. The engineers 
themselves finislied the job by cleaning up the scrap wire, and they strung a new 
fence down the highway. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that done by private contract? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes; the fence was put in by contract. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know who the contractor was? 

Mr. Townsend. I think it was the CaldweU Construction Co. that built it. 
I am pretty sure they had the fence contract. They built the two factories on 
those camps, I think. 

Mr. Steedman. Do they have offices in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Townsend. I think they are either in Los Angeles or Phoenix. They are 
contractors. 

Mr. Townsend. Did any officials of the camp try to stop the destruction of 
the Government property? 

Mr. Townsend. The only official objection that I knew anything about,, and 
I was much disturbed about it, because it involved my department, and I was 
anxious to stop the miscellaneous handling, the promiscuous handling of the 
equipment, because the equipment would not have been used if they were confined 
to the camps, and it was used on these wild trips in getting out of the camps on 
the various roads. So when the fence was being torn down I talked with Mr. 
Head, to see if there wasn't a way of guarding ever}' roadway where the fences 
were cut down, and he said, "Mrs. Findley has overstepped her rights." And he 
called Mrs. Findley and Mr. Powell in and gave them the dickens for agitating 
such a move with the Japs. And he told me that he was completely out of sorts 



9058 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

with her. I was in his office when he called them down for interfering with the 
other departments of the camps, but even after that they were tearing the fences 
down until this appeal came out in the paper, and then for about 2 weeks the 
fences were left alone. They were all cut to pieces, but they were left alone, and 
then after that they started taking them down and the engineers came out and 
started to p\ill the wires out, and finally they removed the fence. Now there is a 
three-wire fence on one side of the highway, and that is all. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any salvage to the wire fence? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I don't know what happened to it. 1 know that they burned 
most of the posts. When they put the last fence in they brought in other posts, 
4 by 4 by 10 or 12. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And where is the wire? Was it used? 

Mr. TowNSEND. No. They didn't use the same posts because they put in a 
4-foot post and they used a different type of wire. I don't know what happened 
to the wire. I don't know whether the fence company took it back, or what. 

I might say that while they were building the fence they were putting in gates 
at different places, and the Japanese would follow right along, and as they would 
put in the posts, they would pull them out. In other words, the Japanese made 
up their minds they should not be fenced in, and that is exactly the condition. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, doesn't Mr. Head have any control over the 
department heads at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. The Caucasian heads? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Townsend. He is in control, he employs them, but they have no say over 
their departments. He overrides any orders or regulations that they put in 
effect. The Japanese will make a demand contrary to the ruling of a depart- 
ment head, and it is always recognized, so the heads of the departments, the 
Caucasian heads, are not actually heads. They are merely filling a place. 

Mr. Steedman. I was referring to Mrs. Findley and the fence episode. How 
did she get away with that? 

Mr. Townsend. Miss Findley controls Mr. Head. Miss Findley is supposed 
to be one of the personnel under Mr. Head, but the actual fact is that Miss 
Findley tells Mr. Head what to do, and when to do it, and how to do it. 

Mr. Steedman. How often did you have a conference of the section heads 
when you were there? 

Mr. Townsend. When I was first there we had a meeting every morning. 
That was a meeting of the heads of the department, a staff meeting, but that 
played out, and then we had one every week, and that played out, and then 
just a few, three or four, would get together, unless something would come up, 
and then they would call in a department head. 

Mr. Steedman. Was this situation discussed at the meetings, the staff meet- 
ings? 

Mr. Townsend. At the beginning, when I first went down there, I was not 
familiar with many of these irregularities and they were never discussed. The 
irregularity was not discussed, but they were formulating plans, and just generali- 
ties were discussed. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you know a Mr. Ed Hass? 

Mr. Townsend. Very well. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his position? 

Mr. Townsend. He is the chief counsel, and his barracks were right next to 
mine. I almost slept with him for 6 months. 

Mr. Steedman. What did he do as chief counsel? 

Mr. Townsend. He was supposed to have had complete charge of all legal 
matters within the camp area and would set the policies up for the Japs and the 
Government, and at the beginning he had some very excellent ideas. But Mr. 
Hass was so completely domineered by the intelligent Japanese attorneys that he 
soon was not the head of the department. 

Mr. Steedman. Were Japanese attorneys assigned to his department? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. As assistants? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; and some very brilliant men. 

Mr. Steedman. What were they paid, do you know? 

Mr. Townsend. What were they paid? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. Townsend. All Jap employees under the Government regulations received 
$19. The top was $19 a month. 



UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9059 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, goins back to the stealing of the Government 
property at Poston while you were there, about how much would you say that 
the Japanese were stealing daily? 

Mr. Townsend. We estimated repeatedly, and finally concluded that our 
daily loss would estimate about $500. That would include lumber, eqaipment 
and supplies, and subsistence. 

Mr. Steedman. How much would you say was missing since the project was 
started? 

Mr. Townsend. We estimated about $100,000 worth of supplies had been taken 
out of the stock, 

Mr. Steedman. Has this loss been covered up through bookkeeping? 

Mr. Townsend. I often talked to Mr. Empie and the accounting department, 
how they were going to write off the losses, and a nian was sent there to approve 
the condemnation of a lot of broken equipment, and so forth, and so on, and while 
he was there I asked if he was going to be able to write off the losses. But he 
said "No." that he didn't have anything to do with the thefts; that it would have to 
be shown how it was lost, and if it was a theft, there was no way of proving it. 

So I took it to the accounting department and to Mr. Empie, as to what they 
were going to do. and Mr. Empie said that was one of the problems he had to 
solve, he didn't know what he was going to do. 

Mr. Steedman. When did he tell you that? 

Mr. Townsend. When? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. When did he tell you that? 

Mr. Townsend. Well, among the numerous conversations I have had with him, 
all through and during the months of November and December, when we were 
getting very much disturbed over the losses, and it culminated after the riot. 
It was no doubt in Decembar. 

Mr. Steedman. Was Mr. Empie bonded? 

Mr. Townsend. He is supposed to be bonded to have charge of all of the 
finances and all of the supplies and equipment in the entire area. 

Mr. Steedman. How much is his bond, do you know? 

Mr. Townsend. I have never learned. 

Mr. Steedman. Are any of the other employees at Poston bonded? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes; the paymaster; and I think the chief accountant is 
bonded. 

Mr. Steedman. Now, did you witness a riot at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Mr. Townsend. It started on November 18. 

Now, this that I am giving you is merely the high lights of the riot. 

I think, before I read this, with your permission, I would like to make the state- 
ment that as the riot progressed I dictated to Mr. Empie's secretary, Mrs. Palmer, 
an hour-by-hour condition, and she was the only one in the personnel staff left 
there, because we all had Japanese secretaries, and she was the only one available. 
With Mr. Empie's permission I used her to keep a constant record of the state- 
ments made by the Japanese, and the malicious activities, and the thefts, and the 
fire, and numerous unusual things that I knew I couldn't remember. I dictated 
to her for 2 or 3 days on the situation, and she filled up two or three notebooks. 
But those notebooks have disappeared, and that record was not transcribed, so 
this record that I am referring to now was written after the riot, and covers, as 
best I can recall, a few of the incidents. 

The riot started on the afternoon of November 18, 1942, and as far as being 
over, they have received all of their demands and have temporarily subsided until 
other demands are denied, and then probably a real riot will begin. In the words 
of Project Director Wade Head, "The disturbance arose following a protest over 
the arrest of two evacuees with the deadly assault of a third evacuee. A small but 
well organized pro-Axis group took advantage of this situation to seize control of 
the larger of the three Poston units and create a general strike." 

That statement was made in my presence and was written down by Mr. Head 
and supplied to the press. 

Now, following that, off the record, and not written down here, the reason this 
riot was permitted to continue, and, if you wish it to go on the record 

Mr. Steedman. I think it had better go in the record. 

Mr. Townsend. The reason the riot continued was due to the fact that the 
W. R. A., the War Department, the Department of Justice, and the Indian 
Service would not assume responsibility, and it put the camp management and the 



9060 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Caucasian personnel in a very grave situation, because the riot Ijad grown to such 
proportions that they were threatening to eliminate the Caucasian force, and the 
management of no department would ask the M. P.'s the M. P. company 323, 
which was on the other side of the boulevard or roadway, stationed there with 
bayonets fixed and machine guns, but they couldn't get authority to come across 
the highway, and the Japanese thought, of course, that they were afraid to cross 
the border, and that heightened the fever a bit, and the Japanese got pretty bold, 
because the Army was standing on the opposite side of the highway and nobody 
would give them authority to come over, and they interpreted that as being a 
matter of fear. 

This riot and seizure of Government supplies .and equipm.ent is one of the most 
shameful events within America during this war. 

Do you want all of this? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. TowNSEND (continuing). Sham.fful because within the confines of the 
United States in the State of Arizona, under any departm.ent, within a stone's 
throw of the largest military training center for desert troops, an enem.y could 
get away with the seizure, use, dam.aging, under m.ob rule, of Government prop- 
erty, taking com.plete control away from Govermnent appointees, belittling and 
lowering our flag, cursing the Government, its representatives, and holding under 
siege and riot, under threat of death, for more than a week one of the largest 
sendm.ilitary posts; with the poor simpleton, cowering Caucasian em.ployees 
standing around like whipped children, lucky to be .spared and allowed to live 
from hour to hour, with ambulance? filled with disguised soldiers with machine 
guns guarding their sleep, so they would not be slaughtered or burned, as hourly 
threatened. 

Now, that would require an explanation. The M. P.'s were not allowed to 
be in uniform on our side of the highway, so Captain Dougherty took the hospital 
ambulance and mounted machine guns on it, and set the ambulance at the rear 
of our Caucasian sleeping quarters, with soldiers in civilian clothes to keep the 
Japanese from approaching the barracks and burning them up, as they said they 
would. And we were only comfortable when those ambulances were sitting out 
there. But they were not in uniform. 

Now, would you rather have this read or just have it copied? 

Mr. Steedman. I think we had better have it read, so as to get the full import 
of it. 

Mr. Townsend. This is probably a new condition to most of you within this 
fine land, where this violence could happen to the Government without prose- 
cution either in the civil or military or Federal courts. It seems the Japs can do 
no wrong; or, are we still continuing the purchasing of peace-at-any-price policy 
we have pursued for years? Soldiers near our camps have been held 30 days in 
stockade confinement and fined because they have visited their wives 20 miles 
away without permission. No Japanese has ever been punished for anything 
since these camps opened. 

If this is democracy we have so far degenerated in our conception of demo- 
cratic government that it has become impossible to delegate authority; and we 
must admit shamefully to the accusation of only having the potentialities of an 
immense power. I rather surmise Commissioner Collier of the Indian Service 
is not wholly content with the behavior of his wayward adopted children and 
would welcome a way out. 

By the way, that statement was made by the Japanese, that we didn't have 
any power, and we only had the potentialities of a powerful nation, that we don't 
even have the "guts" to put a group of men in charge so that they could control 
even that situation, and so how could we expect to control a national situation, 
such as the Japanese country, and they would state they would have our country 
before long. I have been told that 20 times, at least; in other words, that camp 
is 100 percent of the idea that Japan will have the United States in a few months. 
In talking to them, tliey are very frank about it. They don't cover it up at all, 
particularly the more intelligent Japanese and the military Japanese. 

Now, I don't know that I mentioned it in here, but there are over 1,000 Japanese 
soldiers and Japanese officers in that camp and I have talked to them and have 
been told very definitely about their program, that this group of men on Terminal 
Island were in that category. And they will tell you if you ask them. They 
are the most indifferent fellows. If you ask them, "Were you fellows organizing 
on the west coast?" they will say, "Yes; we had our program all set up." I have 
asked them, "What were you going to do?" And the answer was: "As soon as 
our soldiers came over, we were going to help them." They tell you right off 



UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9061 

that they were going to win the war. And that is the type of man that is drilling 
over there almost daily in military tactics, right under our noses in that camp. 
They drill them in various ways, but still drill them, and they are making soldiers 
out of them, and they are hot kidding about it. They don't even presume to 
hide it. 

P'or instance, I can take you down to an admiral down there. He was our 
chef in camp 3. I can't quite recall his name. I talked to him. I know he was 
an admiral in the Japanese Navy, and he was running a fishing boat at San Pedro. 

1 said to him, 'Ts it a fact that your boats were equipped for military purposes?" 

He said, "Yes; all of our boats were equipped so we could convert them." 
He said that all the Japanese fishermen are military men. He is a fine Jap, if 
you can stomach that sort of stuff. 

Mr. Steedman. Now, go ahead and give us the details about the riot. 

i\Ir. TowNSEND. If you want the matter referring only to the riot, I can give 
you that. I make a lot of personal comments here and so forth. If you want 
to get to the riot in detail, I have that back here some place. 

^Ir. Steedmax. Just give us the details with reference to it. 

Mr. TowxsEXD. We were informed on the morning of November 18, 1942, 
that all work would be stopped at noon. That, however, was nothing, as they 
would go on a sit-down, or a real strike whenever a whim struck- them. By noon 
the whole camp had taken on a holiday air, yet a seething mass of curious Japs 
paraded past the administration offices. All of the regular work was without 
workers and several thousand had gathered around the main store and jail area. 
This was not unusual, as many of the most important events were held there. 
Soon after a gradual beginning cheers and cat-calls and loud statements of defiance 
and against the administration could be heard. Then the Japanese flag appeared 
and the American flag was absent from man}- places. 

Mr. Steedman. Pardon me. Where was the Japanese flag? 

Mr. Townsend. It was put on a flagpole right in front of the jail, over the 
main assembly center of this riot. That was in front of the jail. The jail was 
near the big commissary, and in front of the commissary across the road was an 
open area between the irrigation ditch and the jail, covering, oh, approximately 

2 or 3 acres, and they surrounded the jail and congregated in that open space. 

Mr. Steedmax. Was there a flagpole there? 

Mr. Towxsexd. The flagpole was on the commissarj^, and they put up their 
own flagpole in the center of their activities. 

Mr. Steedman. They put up a Japanese flag? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. Yes. The Japanese flag flew there for 2 weeks, and our 
flag — all the flags at the camp were taken down. The big flag was located at 
the administration center. That flag was under the control of the chief janitor 
of the administration offices. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he Japanese? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he take it down? 

j\Ir. TowxsEND. I don't know who took it down. I don't know that. Then 
we Caucasians in the administration offices decided that the flag was going to 
be flown at the administration offices and they said that if we put it up, they 
would take it down. We wanted to see them do it, and we put the flag up. 
Every morning we fellows at the office put our flag up and took it down at night. 
But the Japanese flag, of course, was flown at other places in the camp. The 
administration flag was the onlj' one that stayed up, and we insisted that it 
stay up. We put it out on a wire, and it looked like we were going to lose, because 
Mr. Evans said he didn't believe it was worth the battle to keep it up. And I 
said, and some of the other fellows said, "That flag is going to continue to fly 
as long as we are on the job." 

Mr. Steedman. Continue. 

Mr. Townsend. Wood and supplies for a night rally were being assembled. 
Beds, blankets, food and all m.anner of supplies gradually piled up. Then 
thousands joined in the Japanese anthem. In the early afternoon it was apparent 
we were in for trouble. It was learned that the F. B. I. was about to remove 
two evacuees held on a felony charge of an attempt to murder. They were part 
of the goon squad or Hitler's gestapo that had put more than a dozen in the hos- 
pital for helping the F. B. I. 

By midafternoon we began to take an inventory of just what the conditions 
were and m_ade arrangements for an assault. Just a few days prior to the mob 
taking over we had ordered all trucks in^pounded during the night on the military 
side of the highway. As we had been informed they would keep the trucks during 



9062 UN-ALIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

this siege, I made a tour through the mob with my dispatcher and took the num- 
bers of the trucks, as far as it was possible, as they soon started to cover the 
numbers and otherwise made it very difficult. There were 52 trucks there then 
and m.ore coming. During this tour I was threatened and called everything in 
the calendar. Upon three occa-ions threats and attempts were ro,ade to turn 
over m.y car and several groups made passes to fulfill threats of every nature. 
They were then violent but had not found a good leader. The spirit of the mob 
spread through the administration offices. All help walked out. Caucasian mess 
halls were without cooks or supplies. Schools closed, tb.e hospital was ordered 
to close by the m.ob, but remained open against orders. They bad taken over 
warehouses, supplies, office records they wanted, and, in fact, everything but the 
Caucasian sleeping barracks, without linens or service, and at times the private 
offices. 

The head of our local internal security department, or the infernal impurities 
department, as we called it, Mr. Miller, chief of police to you, was more useless 
and helpless than ever and had greater respect for his gangster policemen than 
ever. These Jap policemen were part of the city trained gangsters that helped 
enforce the rough stuff around camp, creating a large part of the bad government. 

On the morning of the second day a committee came to my office with the daily 
orders to obey, or else. The spokesman, one of the always present recognized 
leaders that kept the trail busy into the director's office, stated, "Beginning today 
we will permit the garbage trucks, mail trucks, milk trucks, and under our han- 
dling, the subsistence trucks, to operate." 

Mr. Step^dman. Who was that? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Gosh, one of the Japanese. One Japanese name is the same as 
another. I know him very well and have his name in the records some place, but 
I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Could you obtain it from your records? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Oh, yes. I know him very well. He was one of my most 
difficult men, and he is one of the army officers that I have referred to. I was in 
the offices and he was there with his steward. He had 8 or 10 men that just stayed 
in the administration offices all the time, and he was one of the men that we thought 
was loyal up until this time, and he was one of the leaders of the riot. As a matter 
of fact, the most loyal men were the agitators and leaders of the riot. 

Mr. Steedman. You mean, loyal up until the riot? 

Mr. Townsend. Up until the riot. They were the ones we considered our 
loyal people. 

Mr. Steedman. From your experience with the Japanese at Poston, do you 
think there is any way of telling a loyal Japanese from one that is dislo3-al? 

Mr. Townsend. There are no loyal Japanese when there is an emergency on. 
As long as it is convenient and profitable and proper, they are loyal Japanese, but 
when an emergency arises and Japan is, taken into consideration, there are no 
loyal Japanese, so far as I have been able to determine. And I can go farther: If 
you find one that you think is loyal, and they are intelligent enough to continue 
with their loyalty, when you dig into their background, you find the}^ are Japanese 
agents. And we found that to be true in many instances over there, after we got 
started finding out who was who. 

I will continue with this statement, the statement of this committee spokesman : 
"All others — all other trucks can not move. We will take care of supplies from 
the warehouses, as we have taken them over and are in possession now. We have 
also taken over the gasoline for the cars and trucks in our possession. There will 
be no railroad cars unloaded, no office work, part of the mess halls and crews will 
work, but only under our orders. If you have any requests, we will be glad to 
consider them." 

I had plenty to say, but could not get the support of the project director or his 
associate in charge at this time. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin had gone to Salt Lake 
City. The responsibility had fallen to John Evans, third in command. 

I appeared in Mr. Evans' office and told him I had been told what was to happen 
within the camp with the supplies and equipment, and asked him what he thought 
I should do in the matter. 

.\nd he said, "What can you do in the matter, but let them do as they want to 
do? There is nothing we can do, unless we start a battle, and we don't want to 
do that now." 

I informed this committee that 35 cars of freight had accumulated at Parker, 
and unless it was unloaded our supplies would have to be diverted, elsewhere. 
They asked how many men I wanted, and I stated 100. They called for 100 
from the mob, and I took them in trucks to the railhead. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9063 

Just at this point, when this group of 100 men started up from the main body 
of the mob, and I started across from the administration building to the motor 
pool, which was opposite the administration building, east, everybody thought 
that they were after me, and the M. P.'s thought that i was being trailed, because 
these Japanese were following me. These bo\^s are all military boys, and when 
thoy came after me, they came in a wedge-shape, and there were 100 in the gang, 
and I was at the head of the wedge, and the M. P.'s thought I was being driven 
by this mob when I was headed toward the motor pool. And, of course, the 
M. P.'s fixed their bayonets and prepared for a light. And I got over where the 
guards were, because the M. P.'s were guarding the motor pool, and I told them 
it was all right because we were taking these men over to the warehouse and then 
attention ceased. But at that moment the whole camp thought something was 
doing, because j'ou will remember that the supplies and equipment in my position 
were in a vital spot during this seizure, and I was pretty much disturbed over the 
fact they had taken possession of my stuff. I considered the warehouses and 
equipment and everything else as under my department, but I couldn't get any 
cooperation to do a darn thing. They wouldn't give me the authority to move, 
because they said if they did there would be bloodshed, and they wouldn't start 
it, and I didn't like it. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How long were Mr. Gelvin and Mr. Head absent during this 
period? 

Mr. TowNSEXD. Thej^ came back immediateh" after they got them on the tele- 
phone. They were out about 3 days. But when they came back, it didn't make 
any difference, and they didn't stop the strike. The strike continued for a week 
or 10 days after the}' got there. 

Now, after arriving — that is at the railhead — they said they would unload only 
food and subsistence. They then returned to the camp — they wouldn't unload 
anything else; they refused — they then returned to the camp and I issued a bulletin 
then and there to the effect, "No work, no eats." This bulletin also covered a 
guard around the warehouses, but I was overruled by Mr. Empie and severely 
criticized by the administration for being so harsh and not conferring with them 
before putting out such a bulletin. 

Earher in the day-a car of delicious apples had been unloaded by Indian workers, 
but trucked to the Camp by Jap drivers. Now, those Jap drivers were our Indian 
mess hall drivers. They didn't go out the first day or two. Those Japs were 
our loyal Japs. They served the Indian mess hall that was in the city of Parker 
for the Indian Service, which is right at Parker, just a mile from the heart of the 
city. These Japs got these apples out and the Japs said they would take them 
down to the warehouse. That is how these Japs happened to be driving. 

One load of 75 boxes were delivered direct to the mob, and later the entire 
carload, with all other fruits, were taken from the refrigerator in the warehouse 
district. Cases of milk were dumped and cartons of milk thrown at everyone 
on the highwa\^ and around the camp. 

Now that condition came about because the milk truck came in, and the 
Japanese met the milk truck. It was driven in by truck and trailer from the 
Golden State Dairy, and the driver was in the habit of taking the milk directly 
to the warehouses. They met the milk truck and jumped on the truck and 
diverted it. 

Mr. Steedmax. Was there a white man driving the truck? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes ; the Golden State Dairy delivery man, driving a refriger- 
ator truck. He refused to drive the truck over to the group, so they started to 
unload the truck, and did unload the truck and started to throw it out. I went 
into the dispatcher's office, and there was a carton of milk thrown through the 
window. 

Why, gentlemen, they were just in a frenzy, but they didn't have a leader. If 
they had had a leader, there would have been a lot of bloodshed. They were just 
a miscellaneous group, a wild, unorganized group, doing anything they wanted to. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not this milk later was paid for? 

Mr. TowN'SEXD. Oh, yes; because it was delivered to the camp. That rnatter 
came up, but we were wrong to question it, because the milk was delivered 
through the guard, and it was our duty to see that this man was properly protected, 
and if we couldn't control our angle, he couldn't help it. He was lucky to get out 
of there with his truck. 

Mr. Steedmax. The Golden State Dairies were reimbursed for the milk? 



9064 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. TowNSEND. oil, yes. We paid the regular milk price for the regular 
shipment, you bet. We had to, due to the fact that they had delivered the milk 
into the camp, which was on their contract. If it had been taken outside, we 
probably would not have had to. 

Mr. Steedman. When the milk came into the confines of Poston, it became 
Government property? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Yes. And that was not the only occasion. The milk came 
in every night during this riot, and the rioters took the trucks, and the ice cream, 
and other supplies that came into camp, took them right over to their lines. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head ever instigate any investigation to determine 
who destroyed the Government property in this case? 

Mr. TowNSEND. No. They asked rpe to sign some sheets in blank, that they 
were going to fill in showing certain property was destroyed. I said, "I won't 
sign anything of that kind at all." He said, "Somebody has got to sign it." 
T think' the Government has a form, a destruction form, or whatever the title 
may be, that shows — a form showing that certain property was destroyed under 
certain conditions. 

I said, "You have no way of determining the amount of what you are going to 
fill in and I am not going to sign anything until we have taken an inventory and 
are going to determine what will be put in the form." So I don't know what 
happened to it. But there was no effort made, other than the gasoline report, 
and Mr. Head now even denies there was a riot, by the way. 

Mr. Steedman. Continue. 

Mr. TowNSEND. As a matter of fact, Mr. Don Eddy, the representative of a 
very well-established concern in the Nation — you may know him — made a call 
upon Mr. Head to make some inquiries about the riot onlj' about 3 weeks ago, 
and Mr. Head, Mr. Gelvin, and Mr. Evans sat in the office and told Mr. Eddy 
that there never had been a riot, that there never had been any disturbance in 
that camp. And Eddy came up to me in the Indian reservation and said, "Will 
you tell me what kind of blankety-blaiik cusses they are? We have the records 
in the office, and those three men looked me square in the eye and told me there 
had never been a disturbance in that camp, and no riot." 

Mr. Steedman. At that time, may I ask who was the commanding officer of 
the M. P.'s at Poston? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Captain Dougherty. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his full name? Do you know? 

Mr. Townsend. No; I don't think I ever heard his first name; and the M. P.'s 
were not at fault in any respect. They were ready, willing, and able to corral 
that thing. When Colonel Alain and other military officers came in, they were 
ready, and they ran a machine gun company up and stationed them up at Parker 
to help settle this riot, but they were never given orders, and after Mr. Head came 
in and met the demands that the Japs made, and it isn't over with yet — the strike 
is over, but they still have control, and the Japs are giving orders. That is the 
reason I am not there now. I wouldn't take orders from them. 

Mr. Steedman. You may continue. 

Mr. Townsend. During the next few days things were wild and one thing 
after another took place with no effort to prevent these dangerous and irregular 
happenings. One of the most disturbing things was the removal of our flags from 
all parts of the camp and the need of our Caucasians putting up the large flag at 
the office, under threats it would be removed, with all replaced by the "Rising 
Sun." 

Loudspeakers, stolen from the warehouse, had been installed, and during day 
and night the Japanese national anthem was heard through the length and breadth 
of the camp, with wild cheers and loud demonstrations toward setting fire to the 
whole camp, which they had threatened to do if the military forces were brought 
in, or crossed the highway. That is the way they put it. 

I had succeeded in getting an M. P. guard on the motor pool in the military 
zone where more than 200 additional pieces of equipment had been assembled. 

At 9 o'clock, in front of the Caucasian barracks, the chief of the fire depart- 
ment and his assistant — the chief of the fire department, Mr. Fein, and his assist- 
ant, Mr. Woodhouse, were accosted by a group of Japanese policemen, and a fight 
started because the fire department car had been driven into a part of the camp. 
It was necessary for more«than a dozen Caucasians with pea shooters to go out 
and stop the attempt made by the police department to beat up the fire chief 
and his first assistant. This "created a considerable disturbance, and it was 
thought it would be necessary to move the Caucasian personnel over to the mili- 
tary quarters. 



UX-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9065 

About 12 o'clock midnight on the third day of mob control about 200 of the 
mob advanced to this motor pool, where they reached the highway across from 
the pool. They were halted bj- the M. P., and advised they were not allowed 
to cross the highway. They started to move forward, and the M. P. fired over 
their heads. His orders were to fire over their heads and then into them. He 
was at once supported by another M. P. with a machine gun. The mob that had 
advanced in regular" military wedge formation stopped, and in a few minutes 
the entire M. P. company was there in trucks with fixed bayonets ready for 
action. The Japs retreated. 

That shot had more to do with the advancetnent of good government than 
anything else that had ever been done in this camp. Standing behind the M. P., 
seeing the determined look and the immediate response of his buddies, all heavilv 
armed, and the angry mob facing their first set-back, defiant and ugly but still 
without a leader, made things look pretty near a crisis. 

This is off the record. 

Mr. Steedman. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. TowNSEND (continuing). The shot was the alarm for the M. P. company 
to appear, and they put the highway under solid guard, and the Japs reluctantly 
backed up. 

I would like to say too: That the Japs are not cowards and I was surprised that 
they did not advance and be killed for their cause. I have been asked numbers of 
times there, "Why don't you kill us? It is easier than to convince us." 

This 323d Military Police Company deserves a great deal of credit, although they 
were not permitted to do a great deal. They were alert and more than willing to 
settle this riot from the minute it started. Under Captain Dougherty and an 
able corps of officers they had the matter well in hand and if any fault exists, it is 
with their superiors, who should have had an arrangement with the War Reloca- 
tion Authority. That mob or riot out of hand was their baby ajid not left to a 
few inexperienced, frightened men up against their first real problem. 

About the fifth day we were all beginning to become alarmed over the safety of 
our families, and they were getting pretty nervous and threadbare. No arrange- 
ments had been made to evacuate them, even though things got to that stage. 
Threat after threat of violence kept coming from one source after another. I had 
received 15 oral and written threats. Many of the Caucasians had left with their 
families, who had been confined to their barracks. 

On the fourth day, in conversation with the F. B. I. agents, they advised me 
they were leaving, as it was useless for them to remain and risk their necks, as 
they were getting nowhere and the idea seemed to be to give the Japs everything 
they wanted, regardless. 

Mr. Steedman. Do vou recall the names of the F. B. I. agents who told vou 
that? 

Mr. TowxsEXD. Xo: I haven't those names. I knew those two fellows quite 
well. They were in the next barracks to me. Those men were there, and the 
sheriff was there, and other F. B. I. men had been there. Oh, I omitted some- 
thing that might be of interest to you. We might be off the record for a minute. 

Mr. Steedman. Let's put it on the record. 

Mr. TowNSEND. All right. 

Priol- to the breaking out of the mob, a delegation of eight F. B. I. men had been 
in the camp, working on certain violence that had caused a number of Japanese 
to be put in the hospital. Their car left the guard gate at 8 o'clock, and at 8:15 
the goon squad went into the barracks of one of the Japanese informants that had 
been working with the F. B. I. and the young man being absent, this goon squad 
beat up his mother and father to a point where the}'' were not expected to live, 
breaking the arm and ankles of the father, and breaking both arms and frac- 
turing the skull of the mother, and bruising her in nearh- every portion of her 
body. 

Mr. CcsTELLo. Do you have the names of those Japanese? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I have in the records some place. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How long did they remain in the hospital? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I went in to see them the following morning after this had 
happened, or, I went in the next evening, and the next morning or about midday 
the following day there were other victims put in the hospital, and these people 
had disappeared. 

Mr. CosTELLo. In 2 days they had disappeared from the hospital? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Disappeared from the hospital. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Did you ever see them afterward at the camp? 



9066 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. TowNSEND. No; I never saw them, and the riot followed soon after that, 
because this squad, this goon squad, went out and wanted to beat up everybody 
that had given any information to these F. B. I. men. 

Mr. CosTELLo. If there was a death at the camp, then how would the burials 
be handled? 

Mr. TowNSEND. The doctor signs the death certificate, and the undertaker 
is from Yuma. I can't recall his name, but he takes the body and takes it down 
to the crematory, unless the bodies are shipped out. Very frequently the Japs 
have shipped them out. 

Mr. CosTELLo. The undertaker handles the cremation? 

Mr. TowNSEND. That is right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. In a Government-build crematory? 

Mr. TowNSEND. That is right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Does he keep a record or does the camp keep a record of the 
cremations? 

Mr. TowNSEND. No; he keeps the records. He bills the project director every 
month. He was complaining to me once about being several thousands of doUars 
in arrears and wondering 'what in the heck he could do to get his money. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is he allowed to conduct any cremations of persons other than 
those from the camps? 

Mr. TowNSEND. I have never heard of any; only just the Japanese within the 
camp. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The crematory is exclusively used for the personnel in the camp? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Continue with your story of the, riot, please. 

Mr. TowNSEND (continuing). On the fourth day in conversation with the 
Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, they advised me they were leaving, as it 
was useless for them to remain and risk their necks, and getting no where, and 
the idea seemed to be to give the Japs everything they wanted, regardless. . 

I stated to these two F. B. I. operators that they need not kid me, that they 
wer^- not going to leave the camp, and they informed me they were definitely on 
their way out, and they left. I know they left, because I saw them get in their 
car and go. 

As tension increased, and everyone was at the breaking point, I made a demand 
upon the Jap leaders to produce the keys to the gasoline pumps. My car and 
others had been drained. I received them and put the pumps under Caucasian 
guard and operation, keeping the keys to one 1,000-gaUon tank for emergency pur- 
poses, releasing two 2,000-gallon tanks for normal uses. The mob had used 
5,000 gallons of gasoline the first 2 days. 

It required considerable persuasion and trouble to get these keys. Later in the 
day, the acting director, John Evans, through fear of further arousing the Japs, 
instructed chief administrative officer, Mr. Empie, whom I was directly under, to 
order me to surrender these other keys to be turned back to the Japs. They 
had already taken charge of the pumps again. I told them both to go to hell, as 
I felt a certain responsibility toward the women and children and would hold the 
tank of gasoline for their evacuation if it came to that point. 

In attendance at this stormy session was Colonel Main of the United States 
Army, who had been sent there to settle the riot. He was denied this right, or 
was not given an\' opportunity to take anj^ action with the angry Japs. He asked 
the officials assembled why we did not at once recover the seized Government 
property being illegally held, and stated if he could get orders he would take it, 
but would expect to leave around 600 dead Japs on the ground in so doing. When 
told to let things take their course 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was Mr. Head or Mr. Gelvin at the camp at that time? 

Mr. TowNSEND. No; they hadn't arrived. This was around the third or 
fourth day. But Colonel Main had his staff there, and, boy, was he boiling. 

In this report I didn't want to state many of the things that took place, because 
some of these fellows were just as hot about it was I was. We had a pretty near 
battle there. I told Evans — or, first, I told Mr. Empie to go to hell. 

He said, "Well, do you mean to tell me you can tell me to go to hell?" I said, 
"Yes." He said, "Why don't you tell Evans he can go to hell too?" I said, 
"That is exactly what I will do." So he said, "Come on." 

So they had the meeting with Colonel Main, and Empie walked in, and he was 
boiling, and he didn't know whether to go in or not, but he said, "Mr. Evans, 
]\Ir. Townsend has some things to tell you." 

I said, "I told Mr. Empie to tell you to go to hell. I was going to, and I told 
Mr. Empie to tell you, and now I am telling you myself, that you can't have the 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9067 

key to the other 1.000 gallons of gasoline." I said, "You may not feel any 
respon.^^ibility toward the Caucasian people in this administration center, but I do, 
and I am going to keep enough gasoline to evacuate these white people in these 
camps if it is necessary." 

And Kvans is a big Indian type of guy, and he got out of his chair and walked to ■ 
the window, and we had quite a little session, and finally he sat down. I said, 
"That is the way it stands, and I don't have anj' right to turn those pumps over 
to the Japanese." 

He said, "Mr. Townsend, we arc trying to avoid bloodshed, and we think we are 
doing the best we can until things take place." 

Then Colonel Main spoke up — oh, by the way, Mr. Empie's assistant spoke 
up, Mr. Smith. He was the assistant under Mr. Empie that took care of the 
business, and he said, "Townsend is right." He said, "There has got to be 
somebody here that will try to take care of this situation, and that is his depart- 
ment, and I am for him." And Colonel Main said, "Townsend, why in the world 
don't you go down and do something?" 

I said, "All right. Colonel, if you have the authority to tell me, I will be the 
first man to go." 

And Colonel Main said to Evans, "What about it?" He said, "This has reached 
a point where I am disgusted. I had just as well leave." He said, "If I go down 
to take it over," he said, "well, there will be five or six hundred Japs on the 
ground dead, and that is what ought to be done." And Main got up disgusted, 
and his staff got up and went out with him, and I didn't see him after that. 
When told to let things take their course to save bloodshed, he left the meeting 
with his staff in disgust, and said, "If he could get no- cooperation from the local 
management he could see no reason for lianging around, but, by the looks of 
things, he or someone would have to be called back to settle things." 

After another night of hell, the loud bellering of the Japanese national anthem 
and the cheering and threats, my wife with others agreed to leave for their homes, 
so about noon I left with a carload. We were informed when leaving that if I 
returned that I would regret it, as I was on the top of the blacklist of Caucasians 
that had to go. I returned in a few daA\s, finding things wearing out, but not 
settled in any measure, other than finding the Japs in a stronger position, having 
won most of their demands. Many near clashes occurred over the transportation 
that was being used by special permit from the chief administrator, under guard. 

The mob continued with almost entire control for another week, while the 
F. B. I., the Indian Department, and the War Department, who were in constant 
contact by special through wire from Washington, wrangled over jurisdiction and 
who was to assume responsibility. 

Finally, after added numerous victories and vicious demands, the release of 
both prisoners was ordered by the camp director. He had agreed to release one 
of them, and, of course, at this period ]\Ir. Head and all of them were back — they 
were back long before this, however — he had agreed to release one of them, but 
that would not satisfy the mob, so as a means of satisfying them and in an effort 
to avoid bloodshed, he released the two, thereby compounding a felony. If they 
were not guilty, they should not have been arrested and held, and if they were 
guilty, nothing under the sun should have released them without trial and regular 
legal procedure. The sheriff of Yuma County, T. H. Newman, had arrived, but 
he did not care to remove the prisoners. Up to date there has b?on no prose- 
cution for any offense or for any outlawry or crime in any of the camps. On the 
Poston battle fronts the Japs have won ail battles up to January 1943. 

Mr. Stkedm.^n. Mr. Townsend, I would like to develop at this point somathing 
about your handling of the automobiles and trucks at Poston. You were to 
have had cliarge of all of the automobiles and trucks at Poston? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; all motor equipment. 

Mr. Steedman. Then the project manager ordered you to leave the trucks 
and tractors in the custody of the Japs for 24 hours a day? 

Mr. Townsend. When I went to the camp the procedure was that all equip- 
ment was in the hands of the Japanese 24 hours a day. 

Mr. Steedman. Was that later changed? 

Mr. Townsend. At a later date. I fought for 2 months to get a written 
consent, and when I got the written consent — I might say it was customary for 
yir. Head. Mr. Gelvin, and Mr. Evans to give verbal orders and then counter- 
mand them, and all of mv recjuests were made in writing, and I finally got the 
signatures of Mr. Head, Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie, and Mr. Evans to imi)ound 
the equipment, and as soon as the equipment was impounded, certain demands 



9068 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

were made upon them and they tried to lift the order, and I refused to release 
the equipment unless we all agreed upon it, to countermand the other arrange- 
m.ent. 

Mr. Steedman. How many so-called pleasure cars did you have at Poston? 

Mr. TowNSEND. About 70 or 80. 

Mr. Steedman. Were they all owned by the Government? 

Mr. TowNSEND. All Government sedans. 

Mr. Steedman. Government sedans. Were these automobiles used by the 
Japanese at night? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Exclusively. 

Mr. Steedman. What did they use them for? 

Mr. Townsend. Pleasure, running around the camp in the remote areas, for 
scooters, and playing around, as would be expected. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there a curfew at the camp? 

Mr. Townsend. Never has been a curfew at the camp. 

Mr. Steedman. What percentage of the equipment was used after working 
hours. 

Mr. Townsend. More than 50 percent. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the director finally agree to a pooling arrangement of the 
equipment? 

Mr. Townsend. He did. 

Mr. Steedman. That was after about 2 months? 

Mr. Townsend. After about 2 months we got the equipment pooled on the 
military side of the highway. 

Mr. Steedman. You may continue. 

Mr. Townsend. By pooling the trucks, we saved 1,775 gallons of gasoline in 
the first weekend, Saturday night, Sunday, and Sunday night, and continued to 
save 1,000 gallons per day, by actual pump records. That is by the trucks that 
were impounded. Then later on, if you want to bring in the cars, we did the same 
thing and saved 300 gallons a day by taking the cars away from them. 

Mr. Steedman. While you were at Poston did the Japanese who were interned 
there make automobile trips to visit their relatives and friends in the Midwest 
and East? 

Mr. Townsend. They did, with written orders bj- Mr. Head, to supply them 
with transportation. 

Mr. Steedman. What w'as the reason for these trips? 

Mr. Townsend. Any excuse. Sickness in the families or for the purpose of 
looking after a sold automobile that payments had not been made on, being 
unable to make collections on crop sales or various agricultural ideas, and for 
any miscellaneous excuse the Japanese were allowed to take Government equip- 
ment and make trips up to 2,500 miles, using Government credit cards. 

Mr. CosTELLO. All their own cars had been left at their homes by the evacuees? 

Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. They didn't have their own cars, except those 
which we leased from them, you see. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And they used the Government equipment? 

Mr. Townsend. They used to use them, these big sedans, and drive them into 
these metropolitan centers out there, with soldiers sitting out there in the desert 
and seeing a load of Japanese going by in the big Government cars and giving 
the boys a big horselaugh. It was terrible, and is still going on, but not quite 
so viciously, because the camp has been under quarantine. 

Mr. Steedman. You say that some of the cars traveled as high as 2,500 miles. 
Did the speedometers indicate that when they returned? 

Mr. Townsend. Yes. In starting them on the trip it was usual to give them 
a credit card and to keep a complete record, so we took the speedometer reading 
upon their leaving and upon their returning. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that the records at Poston will show or indicate 
these trips that were made back into the Midwest and East? 

Mr. Townsend. I have in my possession a great many of the records, particu- 
larly the authorizations issued by Mr. Head or his associates for these trips. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you furnish those records to the committee? 

Mr. Townsend. Be very glad to, and other records there should be complete, 
showing all of the miscellaneous travel, both by Caucasians and others. 

Mr. Steedman. Would those records be in the dispatcher's office? 

Mr. Townsend. Supposed to be. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, how do you explain the control which the 
Japanese have, or apparently have, over Mr. Head and the various staff members 
at Poston? 



UN-A]VIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9069 

Mr. Tow-NSEND. Well, my interpretation was that at the beginning Mr. Head 
was operating under the W. R. A. orders, and the orders of Mr. Collier of the 
Indian Agency, that they had started an experiment and that they were en- 
deavoring through the Indian Agency to give the Japanese the same freedom and 
the kind careful attention that they were giving the Indians, believing that they 
were a mild group of American civizens. 

Later on, Mr. Head had responded to so many unusual demands that the 
Japanese found tliat he was easily influenced and it gradually grew to the point 
where they made ridiculous demands, and Head started coinplving with them 
until he got himself so deeply involved with the Japanese tha't he could not 
retract. And now there have been so many irregular things happen that I\Ir. 
Head and his associates are completely involved in, misconduct, to the point 
where there is no hope of correction — disloyal misconduct. I think that is the 
most disloyal set-up that the American Government has ever witnessed. 

Mr. Steedman. You think that they are sympathetic toward the Japanese? 

Mr. TowNSEND. One-hundred percent, and particularly through the school 
system. The sympathy toward the Japanese of the social service department is 
the greatest detriment down there. The school system is allied with the social 
service, and the two together are a fearful influence, and Mr. Head — well, he is 
not a man capable of standing up against it. His stamina is lacking, and he has 
never had any experience in the line of handling this vicious type of people, 
although it is true that he is a very fine, polished gentleman. 

Mr. Steedman. What recommendation would you make to improve the condi- 
tions at Poston? 

Mr. TowNSEND. Put it entirely under militar}- control, and when the Japanese 
are told to do something, see that they do it, instead of laughing at the instructor, 
the management, and the Government. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please recite, briefly, the circumstances surrounding 
your resignation? 

Mr. TowNSEND. On December 20 a meeting was called by Mr. Empie's per- 
sonnel, stating that the Japanese were to take over the control of the camp. At 
that meeting Mr. Palmer, the timekeeper and not the procurement officer, asked 
if he meant that we were to take orders from the Japanese. 

Mr. Empie said he did not expect to take orders from the Japanese, and if any 
of the rest of us were worried, it would be a good.plan for us to leave. 

After the meeting, I asked Mr. Empie if it was his understanding that we were 
to accept orders and the entire department were to go under the leadership of the 
Japanese. He said, "It looks that way." 

I asked him if that was the W. R. A. policy, or what made him think that we 
were to be under their direction. 

He said, "Well, that is the project director's orders." 

And I said, "Mr. Empie, I can never take orders from the Japanese, and you 
know it." 

And he said, "I can't either." 

So in 2 or 3 days — I had been licensing the drivers under the W. R. A. order, 
I had been issuing licenses, and we agreed to qualify only certain members, and 
I had to go into many battles "with the Japanese over not issuing drivers' licenses, 
and inasmuch as my entire staff had gone, due to the riot, I was left in complete 
charge of the motor equipment, and during the search of trying to get drivers 
for the equipment and adjusting the riot conditions, we were constantly in a 
turmoil in my office. On the 23d of December Mr. Gelvin called me in and said 
that he realized that I was not willing to comply with the orders of putting my 
department under the Japanese control and taking orders from them. And I 
said, "Xo; I am not." 

Se he said, "Well, we are going to have to make a change." 

I said, "Well, that is ])erfectly proper." So he gave me a very nice letter,, 
and my time continued until Januar}- 15, and in the letter, which you may have, 
he stated that my services were very highly appreciated, that he had found 
that I had worked to the interests of saving all that could be saved for the Gov- 
ernment, and the only thing that they found was that my relationship with the 
Japanese was not friendly. And I assure you now it was not friendly, and I 
am not the kind of a fellow that can see that sort of thing continue and not be 
interested in making a correction, because I think it is the most un-American, 
the most disloyal, the most extravagant thing that we have ever seen in this 
country, particularly during the war period, and we ought not to take it ea.sily, 
not only at this time, but in the future. After the war is over, to have to deal 

6-'62f! — 13 — vol. 1") 16 



9070 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

with that arrogant bunch of Japs, who have put it over on every type of a Gov- 
ernment agency, well, they are going to be a very difficult people to deal with 
after the war. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Costello? 

Mr. Costello. No. I think that prettj^ well completes the picture on that 
situation. 

Mr. Steedman. I think that that is about all. 

The Chairman. We appreciate very much your giving us your statement, 
Mr. Townsend. Thank you. 

(Whereupon, at 5 p. m., the hearing in the above entitled matter was adjourned.) 

• Mr. Costello. The committee v^ill stand adjom-ned until 10 o'clock 
tomorrow morning. 

(Thereupon, at 4 p. m., the hearing adjourned until 10 a. m,, 
Friday, June 11, 1943.) 



INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIV- 
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



FRIDAY, JUNE 11, 1943 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Avgeles, Calif. 
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States 
Post Office and Court House, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon, John M. 
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon. 
Herman P. Eberharter. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, 
acting counsel. 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. I believe your first 
witness today is Mr. James. 
Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF NORRIS W. JAMES, FORMERLY PRESS AND IN- 
TELLIGENCE OFFICER, COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION 
PROJECT, POSTON, ARIZONA. 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Costello. Will you state your full name to the reporter? 

Mr. James. IN orris W. James. 

Mr. Costello. Will you also state your occupation? 

Mr. James. My profession is newspaperman. 

Mr. Costello. Do you wish to proceed with the questioning, Mr. 
Steedman? 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat is your present address? 

Mr. James. 215 Churchill Avenue, Palo Alto. 

Mr. Steedman. Where were you bom? 

Mr. James. San Francisco, Calif. 

Mr. Steedman. When? 

Mr. James. February 19, 1904. 

Mr. Steedman. Where did you attend school? 

Mr. James. I attended grade schools in San Francisco, Palo Alto 
High School, and Stanford University. I hold an A. B. degree from 
Stanford University, class of 192G. The A. B. is in political science. 
I also studied law at Stanford and took courses in far eastern history 
under Prof. Yamato Ichihashi. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please give the committee a resume of the 
most important positions that you have held? 

Mr. James. Following my graduation from Stanford, I was em- 
ployed by Peninsular Newspapers, Inc., operators of three daily 
newspapers on the San Francisco peninsula. 

9071 



9072 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

In approximately September of 1928 I accepted a position with th& 
Honolulu Star-Builetin, Honolulu, Hawaii. After serving with the 
Star-Bulletin for a few months, I was assigned to Hilo, Hawaii, where 
I was on the staff of the Hilo Daily Tribune-Herald. 

I .returned to the mamland of the United States in January 1930. 

I then accepted a position with the Miller-Freeman Publications 
of Seattle, Wash., m their San Francisco organization — that is the 
San Francisco office. This is a business magazine organization^ 
publishing some 18 business magazines on the Pacific coast. 

I was editor of their retail publications — editorial director of their 
retail publications, including Furniture Reporter, a monthly magazine 
going to the retail home furnishing merchants and the dry-goods 
stores that handled home furnishings. 

In 1933 with Mr. George F. Morrell, I organized the Western Retail 
News Service, operating in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Portland, and 
Seattle, publishers of two semimonthly business magazines — Furni- 
ture Retailing and Appliance Retailing. 

I operated these in approximately 1936 and then went back to the 
Peninsular organization, of which Mr. Morrell was president when we 
disbanded these business magazines. 

I served with the Peninsular newspapers practically continuously 
until February of 1942, when I was approached by the War Reloca- 
tion Authority to accept a position in the San Francisco office. 

I accepted that position on April 18, 1942, and on May 7, having 
applied for the position at the Colorado River War Relocation Center 
as press and intelligence officer and I was assigned there and arrived 
at Poston on approximately May 8. 

I served continuously at Poston until May 15, when I resigned to 
join the armed forces. 

Mr. Eberharter. May 15, 1943? 

Mr. James. May 15, 1943, yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. At this point 

Mr. James. Pardon me, may I go into a few other things such a* 
my knowledge of the Japanese people? 

Mr. Steedman. I was going to inquire into that at this point. 

Air. James. Would you want to do that by questioning? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. I would like to ask you when you were in 
Hawaii did you come into contact with Japanese organizations in the 
islands? 

Mr. James. I did. I met Maj. Joseph Stilwell, who was then in 
charge of counter-intelligence for the Territory of Hawaii. That was 
in February — February 29, I am sure it was. And out of a casual 
friendship with him I learned quite a bit about the overseas organiza- 
tions that Imperial Japan had maintained in Hawaii and in this 
country. 

Subsequent to my return to the mainland, I attended frequent 
meetings of the Japan Society of America in San Francisco, the 
Japanese-American Citizens' League and through contacts with the 
Office of Naval Intelligence and friends of mine who are employed 
there, was able to keep up a fairly clear picture of what was going on. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you made a study of Japanese subversive 
organizations, such as the Central Japanese Association and the 
various Ken or Prefectural groups? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9073 

Mr. James. I have. I am acquainted with Kenjin Kai, the so- 
called Prefectural associations which are somewhat like the State 
associations that you find here in southern CaHfornia — Iowa Society, 
Indiana Society, and so forth. 

I am also acquainted with the Junior Kenjin Kai, which is a horse 
of a different color; a group of younger ones who have been, in my 
estimation, subject to the indoctrination of Imperial Japanese repre- 
sentatives of Imperial Japan. 

In the Junior Kenjin Kai you find that many of the Kibei — that is, 
American-born Japanese who have gone to Japan for their further 
education — have filled the more unportant roles. 

I am acquainted with Heimusha Kai, which is an organization 
which existed on the American Pacific coast prior to Pearl Harbor, 
composed of the veterans of the Russo-Japanese war, whose duties 
were largely those of collecting money for the Imperial Navy or the 
Imperial Army. 

Mr. Steedman. "When you went to work for the W. R. A., had you 
a good basic knowledge of Japanese psychology and Japanese cus- 
toms? 

Mr. James. I would say an average knowledge of a pereon interested 
in this phase of Japanese activities on the coast; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlio requested you to apply for a position m the 
W. R. A.? 

Mr. James. Off the record may I state the circumstances? 

Mr. Costello. I might state for the benefit of the press that from 
time to time a witness may want to make some remark off the record 
and I respectfully request confidence in that regard. We wiU go off 
the record for a moment. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

IVIr. Costello. On the record. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliat were your duties and responsibilities at 
Poston? 

Mr. James. For the first 4 months I was in charge of the intake 
center where all arriving Japanese were processed through. . 

I maintained a staff varying, at times, from 60 to as high as 150 
Japanese who assisted me in that work. 

Japanese upon arriving at Poston were immediately brought into 
the intake station where they were processed through, given a pre- 
liminary interview as to their work background, and then invited to 
volunteer to sign W. R. A. Forms Nos. 1 and 2. 

Form No. 1 was an affidavit not to engage in sabotage or subversive 
activities while at the relocation center. 

Form No. 2 was enlistment, a voluntary enlistment in the War 
Relocation Authority work corps, an erdistment to perform work at 
the project in returii for certain cash advances, and in return they 
were to receive also free medical care, basic housing, and food and educa- 
tion for their children. 

Mr. Steedman. When the individual Japanese arrived at the intake 
station, did you have any information regarding his loyalty? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever, Mr. Steedman. Occasionally we 
would receive from W. C C A. ■ 

Mr. Steedman. Will you identify the W. C. C. A.? 

Mr. James. Yes; that is the Wartime Civilian Control Administra- 
tion, setup in the Western Defense Command by Lieutenant General 



9074 UlSr-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

DeWitt, to handle the problem of moving Japanese from the three 
Pacific Coast States and Arizona to assembly centers, and from assem- 
bly centers to the relocation centers. 

Occasionally Japanese were brought directly from their homes to 
the relocation centers. 

In addition to operating the intake station 

Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Steedman's question has not been answered. 
Did you have any information regarding these Japanese when they 
arrived at the camp? 

Mr. James. I had better give you an answer to that. There 
were dossiers sent in by the W. C. C. A. on the previous address of 
these Japanese regarding their physical condition, the members of 
their family, but to my knowledge I have never seen any dossiers 
containing information on their subversive activities. 

The dossiers showed if they had been educated in Japan, which 
was not necessarily prima facie evidence that they were subversive. 

Mr. Stbedman. In other words, you didn't know whether they 
were good or bad Japanese when they arrived at the center? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Shall I go on with my activities, Mr. Steedman? 

Mr. Steedman. I would prefer to bring them out by questions. 

Mr. James. May I add one more sentence on the intake? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. James. In the operation of the intake center, it required a 
small corps of interpreters, typists, and fingerprint operators. 

Mr. Costello. Is a large percentage of the Japanese unable to 
speak English? 

Mr. James. No, sir. 

Mr. Costello. Do practically all the Japanese speak English? 

Mr. James. No; I would say that, oh, possibly 70 percent can 
understand English. 

Mr. Costello. And those who do Dot speak English are they the 
older people? 

Mr. James. The older people; yes; and some of the Kibei, those 
who were born here and then gone back to Japan cannot speak the 
language. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you understand any Japanese? 

Mr. James. I have a fairly good knowledge of conversational 
Japanese and perhaps — ■ — - 

Mr. MuNDT. .Do you speak the language? 

Mr. Jame^. That doesn't qualify me as an expert. 

Mr. MuNDT. You are one of the few members at Poston that could 
understand Japanese? 

Mr. James. I understand the working of the language and the 
extreme difficulty of the translations. I might add to mj knowledge — 
perhaps I had better put this off the record. 

Mr. Costello. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Costello. On the record. 

Mr. MuNDT. The Japanese at the relocation center corresponded 
with people on the outside in the Japanese language? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; they do. 

Mr. MuNDT. They are permitted to do that? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9075 

Air. James. Yes, sir; they do. There is no mail censorship and as 
a result, of course, it is quite possible and they do to my knowledge 
because I have seen actual letters come in between Gila and Poston 
in Japanese. 

Mr. MuNDT. In your opinion would it be possible for them to send 
code messages among themselves in the Japanese language which 
we would not be able to interpret even though we did have an inter- 
preter? 

Air. James. Alay I go off the record? 

Air. CosTELLO. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. On the record. 

Air. AIuNDT. In view of the fact there is no mail censorship and 
that the Japanese are permitted to correspond with other Japanese 
outside of the relocation center at Poston, is it your belief that it would 
be possible for them to send code messages back and forth which would 
not be detectable? 

Air. James. Yes, sir. 

Air. CosTELLo. In view of the fact there is no censorship? 

Air. James. Yes; in view of the fact there is no censorship. 

Air. CosTELLo. They wouldn't even have to use a code? 

Air. James. All you would have to do is write it in Japanese. 

Air. MuNDT. Even without censorship of the letters that you have 
examined it would take an expert in the Japanese language to detect 
a code message in the Japanese language? 

Air. James. That is correct. 

Air. Steedman. \Yhat was the date of arrival of the fu-st Japanese 
at Poston? 

Air. James. Approxmiately May 12. On May 12 two came in 
from El Centro and on the 13th we received 50 from the Lnperial 
Valley. 

Air. Steedman. At that period in the history of the project were 
there any project employees who had had previous experience in the 
handling of Japanese? 

Mr. James. No, sir; the only one who may have had experience 
was the project director. Air. Head, who had lived in the Philippine 
Islands for several years, but to my knowledge none at that stage 
had had any dealings with Japanese either in California or in Hawaii. 

Air. Steedman. As I understand it you were employed by the 
W. R. A. and assigned to Poston? 

Air. James. That is correct, sir. 

Mr, Steedman. And the other employees or the majority of the 
other employees were assigned to Poston by the Indian Service? 

Air. James. That is correct. 

Air. Steedman. After the reception of the evacuees had been com- 
pleted at the project at Poston, what were your duties then? 

Air. James. The process of processing them through the intake 
station continued from Alay to September, but paralleling that my 
job was to set up the project newspaper which, until October 1, was 
financed by the War Relocation Authority and Indian Service — that 
is the paper and the ink was paid for by the Federal agencies. 

On October 1 the name of the paper was changed to Poston Daily 
Chronicle and at my suggestion the Japanese were charged a subscrip- 
tion rate of 30 cents a month for their mimeographed paper, and took 
over the responsibility for the editorial treatment. 



9076 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

My job then was simply to see tliat official news coming from the 
project director's office or from the regional office in San Francisco 
or from the Washington office, was given the proper break in the 
publication. 

I had no control over the editorial policies and told the staff that 
they were on their own ; that they would have to stand by their own 
statements. 

I believe we are the only project paper that has made its own way. 

I felt that it was far better to do that and not have a press censor- 
ship there in order to feel or find out exactly how the people were 
feeling. I felt that it was far better to get them out in the open and 
let them actually speak for themselves — how they felt about a great 
many of the problems that came up in relocation. 

As far as the Japanese edition of the Clu"onicle was concerned, the 
arrangement had to be made to monitor the Japanese part of the 
paper by the Office of Navy Intelligence of the twelfth district of 
military intelligence at Phoenix and the Department of Justice in 
Washington. Copies have gone to each of those three agencies of 
€very edition that has come out. 

Mr. CosTELLO. When you say "monitored" you mean simply 
reviewed? 

Mr. James. Keviewed them on the theory, Congressman, that 
anything that would be said inside the publication at Poston would not 
affect external problems. I think that has worked out pretty satis- 
factorily. We have had, I think, only one kick-back from the 
Department of Justice. 

Mr. MuNDT. 1^ the Poston Chronicle sent to the rapidly growing 
ranks of the alumini at Poston who have been released from the camp? 

Mr. James. Only to those who have put 30 cents on the line. 

Mr. MuNDT. If they have gone and are now a part of the alumnus 
living outside of the camp and in the Middle West they can get the 
newspaper? 

Mr. James. If they put the money on the line. 

Mr. MuNDT. And receive the Japanese edition, too? 

Mr. James. Yes; receive the Japanese edition. 

Mr. MuNDT. Then the monitoring system wouldn't be entirely a 
safeguard against anything that should not be published? 

Mr. James. No; and of com-se the presimiption is that if the 
Department of Justice in Washington or these other Intelligence 
services would have made their translations and if anything popped 
up they would be able to handle it. These translators Imow that 
somebody is riding herd on them in Washington in the Ingellitence 
service — they Imow that and I believe that is why they haven't 
stepped out of line. 

Mr, MuNDT. So far as you know there has been nothing in the 
paper, either in English or Japanese, which would tend to stir up 
trouble among the Japanese? 

Mr. James. Well, now, maybe I had better back up there. It all 
depends on what you mean t3y "trouble." If you mean editorially 
attacking Lieutenant General DeWitt, I think they can stand on 
their own feet. 

Mr. MuNDT. I wasn't thinking about that so much. I was think- 
ing about something that might tend to stir up subversive action. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9077 

Mr. James. Definitoly no. I have never seen anything in the 
Poston Chronicle espousing the cause of Imperial Japan, either in the 
Japanese or English language. 

Air. MuNDT. But you do accord them the American privilege of 
griping? 

Air. James. Yes; and many tunes they have taken on the adminis- 
tration down there. 

Mr. MuNDT. I wouldn't object'to that. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe, Mr. James, the editorial policy as 
expressed by the editorial writers of the paper is indicative of the 
sentmient and feeling of the people in the camp? 

Mr. James. I do. Many times, as I say, they took on us whom 
they called "Hakujin," which literally means hairy barbarians. 

Mr. MuNDT. Hairy barbarians? 

Mr. James. That is the way they refer to us but it was usually in a 
temperate sort of way and many times they were personally justified 
in taking us on. 

Mr. Steedman. Who was your immediate superior at Poston? 

Mr. James. At Poston it was Wade Head, the project du-ector. 

Mr. Steedman. So youi- position was dh-ectly under the project 
director's office? 

Mr. James. That is correct, yes, sh". 

Mr. Steedman. And you reported to the project director? 

yiv. James. That is right. In San Francisco my immediate 
superior was Edwin Bates, who was regional chief of the Reports 
Section for W. R. A. 

Mr. Steedman. And you were employed during the period when 
Mr. Eisenhower was the Director of W. R. A., is that correct? 

!Mr. James. I was, sir. 

!Mr. SteedmAn. Would you state for the record !Mr. Eisenhower's 
full name? 

'Sir. James. Milton S. Eisenhower. He is the brother of General 
Eisenhower. 

Mr. Steedman. Immediately following Pearl Harbor, the F. B. I. 
apprehended and sent to internment camps, Japanese whom they 
considered dangerous. Were any of those Japanese who had been 
in internment camps later returned to Poston? 

Mr. James. They were, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the approximate number? 

Mr. James. Approximately 3G5 were released from Bismarck, 
N. Dak. and Sante Fe, N. Mex. 

Mr. Steedman. What were those Japanese sent to internment 
camps for? 

Afr. James. I am not acquainted with all the dossiers on those men. 
I happen to know a number of instances. A number of them had 
made contributions to the Imperial Navy fund or the Imperial Army 
fund or it had been shown that they liad at one time maintained 
membership in one of the scmipatriotic organizations. 

In every case I am convinced that there was enough basis that the 
F. B. I. had — and the O. N. I. had — that they produced sufficient basis 
for the internment of these men for the duration of the war. 

I am not acquainted with the facts as to why the}- were turned loose 
on the relocation centers. 



'9078 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what occasioned the Government to 
release the Japanese and send them to the relocation centers? 

Mr. James. I believe the Bureau of Immigration or Department of 
Justice working through local hearing boards at Bismarck or Santa Fe. 

Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the F. B. I.'s attitude toward 
the return of the interned aliens whom we are now discussing, to the 
relocation centers? 

Mr. James. I am, but I am afraid I will have to go off the record 
on that because I don't want to mention an opinion that friends of 
mine in the F. B. I. would hear about, and I wouldn't want to put it 
in the record because it would be a second-hand opinion, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Let me ask you another ciuestion at this point: In 
your opinion, did the F. B. I. approve of the release of the interned 
Japanese to the W. II . A. relocation centers? 

Mr. James. No; judging by their actions in attempting to send 
these men back to the internment camps as a result of activities 
conducted at Boston and, I believe, other relocation centers. 

Mr. Costello. The F. B. I. did not have control of the courts or 
anything of that sort or the hearmgs held at Bismarck or Santa Fe? 

Mr. J.\MES. No, sir; they had no control over the alien hearing 
boards that resulted in turning loose these potentially dangerous men. 

Mr. Costello. Was that a branch of the Department of 
Immigration? 

Mr. James. Either that or the Attorney General's office. I am 
not familiar with the machinery set up there. I am told it was 
local boards. 

Mr. MuNDT. But you know the F. B. I. had nothing to do with 
those hearings? 

Mr. James. I do. 

Mr. Costello. They conducted their own hearings and released 
them? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Costello. "Were some of those who were returned to Boston 
ultmiately sent back to an internment camp?" 

Mr. James. Yes. sir; because of activities conducted at Boston. 

Mr. Costello. Did they have to secure additional evidence on 
them and evidence as to their activities before they could be returned 
to an internment camp? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of any of those Japanese who were 
sent from the internment camps back to Boston, who were subse- 
quently released for indefinite leave by the leave office at Boston? 

Mr. James. That I do not. Congressman. . I am not famihar with 
the broad workings of the leave program. 

Mr. Costello. It is quite possible that some of them could have 
been released? 

Mr. James. Yes; it is — it is quite possible. 

Mr. Costello. You have no personal knowledge of the number? 

Mr. James. I have no personal knowledge of that. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know anything about the operation of the 
so-called stop list at Boston? How a man gets on the stop list? 

Mr. James. No. That has been worked out entirely by the leave 
office at Boston and the leave office in Washington, D. C. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9079 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether there is anything in the in- 
structions which automaticallj^ puts a man on the stop hst if he has 
come to Poston from an internment camp? 

Mr. James. I do not. 

Mr. Steedman. The F. B. I., the O. N. I., and the G-2 of the 
Army evidently had information or evidence on the ahens which 
justified their internment, is that correct? 

Mr. James. That is true. One friend of mine in one of the Intelli- 
gence services expressed this as his opinion, and I toss it out to you for 
what it is worth: After Pearl Harbor although approximately 6,000 
Japanese were picked up and held, for every one that had been picked 
up at least one other slipped through the net' — at least one other. 
That would be the minim mii because of the lack of knowledge that we 
Caucasian or white people had of the character of these extremely 
reticent people and theu' fanaticism. 

Mr. Steedman. Retm'ning now to the 365 internees who were re- 
turned from the internment camps to Poston. After those men re- 
turned to Poston, did violence begin inside the project? 

Mr. James. It did, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. What form did that violence take? 

Mr. James. It took the form of a series of beatings, starting Septem- 
ber 15, and continuing through the night of November 14, with 
isolated cases recm-ring in January of the current year. 

Mr. CosTELLO. May I interpose a question there: You say that 
started on September 15. Had these 365 Japanese been located at 
Poston prior to that time? 

Mr. James. They were coming in gradually, Congi-essman, starting 
on — some of them were released to us in June, July, and August. It 
was pretty hot down there. On July 2d it hit 146 — the hottest day 
of the year. Apparently they were not able to get organized untU 
the faU. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you beheve these interned Japanese were be- 
hind the dissension and dissatisfaction that caused the trouble there? 

Mr. James. I believe they were a very important contributing 
factor. I would like the opportunity to develop that if Mr. Steedman 
cares to have me do that. 

^Ir. wSteedman. I had plamied to go into that phase of the trouble 
at Poston, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. James. May I make a request at this time, Mr. Steedman? It 
^\dll probably be necessary from time to time to mention Japanese 
names and their Poston address. I would like to say off the record in a 
great many instances these people are being investigated by the proper 
intelhgence services and I tliink it would be very wise not to use their 
names publicly because some of them are pretty bad babies. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Would it be satisfactory for you to mention the 
names of the people and request the press not to use those names? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. The only thing about that is when these hearings 
are printed these names will be in the record and whether or not the 
intelligence services care to have those names printed in the record, 
I don't know. 

Mr. MuNDT. They should have completed their investigation by 
that time. 



9080 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. I was going to suggest as far as the record is con- 
cerned, whenever a Japanese name is used we might refer to it simply 
by the fii-st letter or whatever letter it happens to start with. 

Mr. MuNDT. I suggest that we use the names and request the press 
not to publish them and that Mr. Steedman provide the intelligence 
service of the F. B. I. and Army and Navy with a list of those names. . 
I think they should be in the record. By the time we get ready to 
publish the hearings I know the investigations will have been made of 
those Japs. 

Mr. James. They have the names that I have. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. For the purpose of the record, from this point on 
the use of any Japanese name under investigation, in printing the hear- 
ings, will be noted and the editor will take care not to publish any such 
names in the printed hearings. 

Mr. Steedman. Returning to the start of the trouble at Boston: 
Did you receive any reports that internees, those who were returned 
from internment camps, were making threats against those Japanese 
who had participated in their hearings before the immigration boards 
and before the F. B. I. and other governmental agencies? 

Mr. James. I did. 

Mr. Steedman. What was the nature of those threats? 

Mr. James. The threats were these: That at Bismarck and again 
at Santa Fe these internees, many of them, had pledged themselves 
to get any of their fellow Japanese who had participated in any way 
in the hearings at Santa Fe and Bismarck, at El Centro and elsewhere 
on the coast where hearings were held. 

Mr. MuNDT. Had that series of hearings tended to incriminate some 
of the internees? 

Mr. James. Shall I make it clearer? 

Mr. MuNDT. Yes. 

Mr. James. There were Japanese who Were used as interpreters 
and translators. They were not used as informers, to my knowledge, 
either prior 

Mr. Mtjndt. They wanted to get even because they had cooperated 
with this country? 

Mr. James. That is right; yes — participated in the use of this highly 
intricate language. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the internees serve notice on those Japanese 
who had cooperated with the Government authorities that they were 
going to beat up every one who had helped the Government? 

Mr. James. They didn't serve notice on the Government authorities. 

Mr. Steedman. I am asking if they served such notice on Japanese 
who cooperated with the Government authorities? 

Mr. James. Oh, the individual Japanese? They started to warn 
them that so and so "has come back in camp; he doesn't like you — 
you had better watch out — don't be seen too often with the Hakujin," 
the white people, "or you are going to get yours." 

Mr. Steedman. Who was the first Japanese beaten up by these 
gangsters? 

Mr. James. On the evening of September 15 it was Saburo Kido, 
national president of the American — Japanese-American Citizens 
League. Kido was attacked by a group of eight American-born boys 
in the second unit at Boston. 



UN-AJMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9081 

Mr. MuNDT. Beaten up by American-born Japanese? 

Mr. James. Yes; beaten up by American-born Japanese. Kido 
was a former San Francisco attorney and at the time lie was beaten 
up he was president of the Japanese-American Citizens League. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you beheve that the Japanese-American 
Citizens League is a patriotic organization of the Japanese? 

Mr. James. In the years before the war and since the war I have 
had a number of deahngs with them and spoken before them and I 
think by and large they have done a swell job. 1 think, unfortunately, 
they represent only a small proportion of the American-born Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please relate to the committee just what 
happened to Kido? 

Air. James. Yes. Kido had been active in San Francisco. He 
had worked with the intelligence services and to my knowledge had 
appeared at some of these hearings. He was going to his house at 
about 10:30 at night when he was jumped by this group, who were 
later identified as American-born Japanese. 

The boys, apparently, had been prompted to do this by propaganda 
which was disseminating from these internees. This was one beating 
up which did not follow the pattern of other beatings that I am going 
into later. It was a case where young American boys who had never 
known Kido had been told by their parents and friends that that was 
their job to do, to beat him up. 

Mr. MuNDT. Wliat was the age of these American boys? 

Mr. James. Eighteen, nineteen and twenty. 

Mr. MuNDT. Not so young that they couldn't give a man a pretty 
good beating. 

Mr. James. Sure they could. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you make an investigation of this occurrence? 

Mr. James. I did. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you submit a report of what you learned to 
Mr. Head? 

Mr. James. Mr. Head made a report of his own paralleling mine. 

Mr. Steedman. Were any of these Japanese boys who beat up 
Kido apprehended? 

Mr. James. One. The other seven had secured seasonal work 
permits and were working in the beet fields. 

Mr. Steedman. That is they had been released for seasonal work 
by the time they found out who they were? 

Mr. James. By the time the mvestigation was completed the eighth 
boy was all set to leave but happened to be apprehended the very 
afternoon he was being released. 

Mr. Steedman. Wliich one was apprehended? 

Mr. James. I haven't his name here, unfortunately. I can furnish 
that to you. That is the only one of the cases that I have mentioned 
whose name I haven't got. 

Mr. Steedman. Well, did any of these boys receive disciplinary 
action for the part they played in this assault? 

Mr. James. I believe the ringleader was given a term of probation. 
He happened to be a member of the Foston No. 2 fire department. 
He was permitted to keep his job and as I say was put on good be- 
havior for 90 days. 

Mr. Mundt. Was. he the one that was caught there? 

Mr. James. Yes; he was the one that was caught. 



9082 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. Were the other seven recalled from their leaves? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. MuNDT. They were permitted to work in the beet fields? 

Mr. James. That is right. They subsequently returned to the 
center after the completion of the beet harvest. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But no prosecution was had at that time? 

Mr. James. No prosecution was had at that time; no, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But the authorities at Boston would have had the 
power to have recalled them from their seasonal leaves for trial at 
the camp if they so desired? 

Mr. James. That is quite correct; yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. From your knowledge of the Japanese generally, do 
you feel that a Japanese boy of 18, 19, or 20, who had participated 
in beating up a fellow Japanese because he was lo3^al to the United 
States Government, and then released on indefinite leave to work in 
a beet field, w;as a suitable man to be let run loose like that? 

Mr. James. I wouldn't put it on a loyalty basis. I would say the 
youngsters are emotionally in a position that would make it very 
dangerous to turn them loose in a white community. 

Mr. MuNDT. It would seem that way to me. 

Mr. James. I don't think it is a case of loyalty; I think it is a 
maladjustment in that sort of boy who is suffering from a sort of 
tunnel vision. The call of race is prett}^ strong. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were these boys raised in Japan? 

Mr. James. No. The ringleader was a graduate of the Watson- 
ville High School. He was a member of the track team there and 
he was a good student. And some of these psychological factors it 
is hard for white people to understand and because of their strange- 
ness of honor, this youngster and the other seven took it upon them- 
selves to beat up Kido. 

The administrator of camp No. 2, James Crawford, has that record. 

Mr. MuNDT. After these boys returned from the beet fields, were 
they disciplined in any way? 

Mr. James. Not at all — not to my knowledge. Congressman. They 
may have been given a parental talking to but I don't thinlv it was any 
stiffer than that. 

Mr. Steedman. In j^our opinion did the weak-kneed policy of the 
project administration indicate weakness to the Japanese? 

Mr. James. Can I qualify my answer in this respect: That in the 
14 months, close to 14 months that I was associated with this largest 
of all relocation centers, I think, gentlemen, that very, vciy few of these 
Japanese can harbor anything but contempt for Caucasians who show 
so-called "Christian virtues." 

After all we must examine their lives on the Bacific coast. They 
are highly individualistic people. Kindness to most of them as shown 
in their own families where they are under the domination of their 
parents, and I am talking about the American born, is the type of 
kindness which we cannot imagine. It is filial loyalty based upon 
fear — fear of the old papasan — the old man of the family. There are 
very, very few — I have seen very, very few instances where I have 
noted there has been any kindness or the so-called humanitarian vir- 
tues such as we white people understand. After all any of the second 
born generation Japanese are only 30 or 40 years away from the old 
country. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9083 

If it is possible, and I am not going to venture an opinion on that, 
but if it is possible to thoroughly mix them up in the melting pot of 
America, certainly it is too soon for us to say these Christian virtues 
have been absorbed by them. 

Air. CosTELLO. The parents completely dominate the families? 

Mr. James. Yes; they are completely dominated. 

Mr. MuNDT. They have respect for a strong disciplinarian control? 

Mr. James. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. And a contempt for a relaxation of that control? 

Mr. James. They have contempt for anyone who is indecisive; 
anyone who shows weaknesses. That is a trait of the Yamoto race 
and it has been intensified as a result of the 12 months these people 
have spent in the relocation centers. I would make one qualifying 
statement on that: 

I do believe the women, and I want to pay tribute to the Japanese- 
American women in these camps, they are in a very difficult spot. 
They have absorbed far more Americanization than the men. They 
are trying desperately to stand up to the standards of American 
womanhood because they stand to lose a devil of a lot. They don't 
want to go back to the period of bondage that the mamasan occupy; 
they want to be American women. And, as a matter of fact, the best 
sources of information — as a matter of fact, the only slim sources of 
information I had at Poston was in the case of Japanese women, and 
especially the American-born who were married and perhaps had a 
child or two. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is a very interesting observation and it sounds 
very logical, that the Japanese women would not want to go back to 
the old life. 

Mr. James. They are splendid. They come up every day in the 
desert heat freslily laundered and they are trying desperately to be 
Americans, but in many cases they are under the domination of their 
fathers. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is the Japanese wife subject to the domination of the 
husband's family, too? 

Mr. James. Not so much in the case of American born. Very 
seldom do you run across that but she is under the domination of her 
father. She can't break away from that. 

I saw one case here last fall when a small gi"oup of our people were 
leaving to go on the Gripsholm on the exchange of nationals. In that 
gi-oup was an old Japanese doctor and his American-born daughter and 
that American-born daughter didn't want to go back to Japan. 
There were tears in her eyes when she left Poston, but she had to go^ — 
she had no choice but obey the wUl of her father. 

Mr. CosTELLO. How old was she? 

Mr. James. Twenty-one; and she had never been to Japan. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know a Japanese by the name of Kay 
Nishimura? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. Mr. Nishimura worked for me for a period of 
about G months as chief interpreter for me. He came originall}^ from 
El Centro, Calif., and had been an interpreter for the sherifi"'s office 
and also for the Bureau of Federal Investigation at El Centro. 

Mr. Steedman. And in those connections he acted as interpreter in 
a number of cases where Japanese internees were involved? 

Mr. Ja:mes. That is correct, sir. 



9084 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the occasion of Mr. Nishimura being 
assaulted by a Japanese mob inside of the center at Poston? 

Mr. James. I do. He was assaulted on two occasions. 

Mt. Steedman. Will you relate to the committee just what hap- 
pened on the first occasion? 

ISIr. James. Yes, sir. !May I consult my notes just a moment? 

INIr. CosTELLO. While you are looking through j^our notes, we will 
take a few minutes recess. 

(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. CosTEiiLO. The committee will be in" order. 

Mr. James. On the night of September 12 at approximately 11 
o'clock, !Mr. Nishimura was coming home from a dance. He was 
attacked by a group of unidentified persons. He testified there was 
between 8 and 12 who beat him up and he was hospitalized at the 
Poston General Hospital. He was released after about 5 days. 

Nishimura told me that he had received warnings for at least 2 
weeks prior to that that he was going to be beaten up. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you investigate that instance? 

Mr. James. I did. Mr. Nishimura wasn't able to disclose to me 
the identity of the persons who had attacked him in the first beating. 

Mr. Steedman. Were they masked? 

Mr. James. Not that group; no. 

Mr. Costello. Was any reason given to. you for the beating? 

Mr. James. Nishimura said he had made enemies because he had 
been a translator and interpreter and he believed he made these 
enemies and that they had possibly — it possibly could be traced to 
these internees. 

He did mention the name of one internee, Juro Omori. 

It is perfectly all right to use his name because he is now under 
lock and key at Santa Fe, N. Mex. 

Mr. Steedman. He felt that the Japanese whom you have just 
mentioned was one of the men that assaulted him? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Was anything done to protect Mr. Nishimura 
from further harm after this first beating? 

Mr. James. No. As a matter of fact, he didn't ask for protection. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he continue to work for you as an interpreter? 

Air. James. He continued to work for me as chief of the transla- 
tion service. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know Tom Ito? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; his name is Tomo. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are you leaving Mr. Nishimura now? 

Mr. Steedman. Leaving him temporarily. He was beaten up the 
second time but I wanted to bring in the beatings in a chronological 
order. 

Mr. James. I know Mr. Tomo whose last name is Ito. He is an 
honor student, graduated from Stanford University and for a num- 
ber of months was supervisor of block managers in the first unit at 
Poston. 

On the night of September 14, a group of between 8 and 10 men, 
according to his testimony, garbed in Japanese hoods, traditional 
Samuri hoods, attempted to break down the door of his apartment. 

He previously, according to his testimony given to me, received 
mysterious warnings from friends of his that he was to be beaten up. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9085 

The gang of hooded men were masked, weanng the Samuri hoods 
and ran away after Ito's yells aroused the neighborhood. Inciden- 
tally, he had secured a large and heavy Yale lock for his door and 
apparently was expecting trouble. 

Air, Steedman. Was Ito friendly to the project ofTicials? 

Mr. James. Very prominent in the project administration. He had 
played ball 100 percent with us. 

Mr. MuNDT. Wliat is the "Samuri hood"? 

Mr. James. Well, it is rather hard to describe. Have you seen 
pictures of a prince of the old Japanese warriors? They wear a hooded 
arrangement made of cloth that fits over the head and allows for a 
mask that drops from here down to about here [indicatmg]. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is, it covers the face from the nose down? 

Mr. James. That is right, covers the face from the nose down. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is that something that the Japanese had made there 
at Poston or did they bring them to camp with them? 

Mr. James. Made them themselves — made them out of cheap 
material. They could be made out of burlap or could be made out 
of cheap cotton goods. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is it a part of some ceremonial custom? 

Mr. James. Yes; it is part of a ceremonial custom. 

Mr. Steedman. Costumes similar to those worn by members of the 
Butoku-Kai? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; it is a ceremonial headdress. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the attempt to assault Ito follow the same 
pattern as the first assault that was made upon Nishimura? 

Mr, James. Insofar as the warnings were concerned, yes; and 
in the number of people that were participating; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And both beatings happened at nighttime? 

Mr. James. At nighttime; yes. . 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese police inside the center investi- 
gate those cases? 

Mr. James. They did. I would like to state for the record that 
from the period May 1 to October 1 there was no white supervisor of 
police at Poston. The work, was entirely undertaken by Japanese 
working under the direction of the unit adnimistrators. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese police diligent in their investi- 
gation of these assaults that were taking place? 

Mr. James. They were unable to furnish any mformation as to who 
was responsible. 

Mr. Steedman. Did they attempt to obtain that information? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge; no. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know Hatsumi Yamada? 

Mr. James. Yes. He was director of recreational activities for 
the first imit at Poston. 

He is a candidate for the Military Language School at Camp 
Savage. He was a former resident of Santa Ana, Calif., where he and 
his sister acted as interpreters for several years for the United States 
Immigration Service. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he friendly to the project administration? 

Mr. James. Very friendly and very helpful. He had a good 
knowledge of the Japanese language and had actually worked for 
me fram time to time as an interpreter. He was an excellent inter- 
preter. 

62626 — 13— vol. 15 17 



9086 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Did he receive a beating similar to the other two 
Japanese whom we have been talking about? 

Mr. James. He did. During the period from October, approxi- 
mately October 1 to October 17, he received a series of warnings he 
was to be beaten up. 

On the night of October 17 when he was returning from an affair 
which was being held m the center at Poston, he was attacked by three 
men, not hooded. These men were not hooded. He was attacked 
by these three men but managed to escape by running away. from them. 

He too received first-aid treatment at the hospital. He was not 
Jiospitalized as Nishimura and Kido were. His injuries were not 
severe. 

Mr. Steedman. Did this mob also attack his sister? 

Mr. James. Not on that occasion; no, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Did it on any occasion? 

Mr. James. Later they did ; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please relate that incident? 

Mr. James. That was on the night of November 15 at 11 p. m., 
1942. The parents of Hatsumi Yamada and his sister received a 
shght beating by a group of approximately eight men who broke into 
their barracks apartment apparently seeking Hatsumi. 

Hatsumi had been sphited away because he had received these 
warnings and was fearful of his life. We had moved him to, I believe, 
the Poston General Hospital — put him in an isolation ward there. 

Mr. Steedman. So the gang couldn't find Yamada so they attacked 
his mother and sister? 

Mr. James. Yes, and the Yamada women were only slightly hurt — 
slightly injured. 

Air. Steedman. Was his father in the house at the time? 

Mr. James. I am not sure on that point, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you say the women were hospitalized? 

Air. James. No, they received first-aid treatment. They were 
terrorized so and repeatedly appealed for protection during the 
period from November 15 to November 25, when we had our trouble 
at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Were they able to identify any of their assailants? 

Mr. James. No, they were not. 

Mr. Steedman. Were those men hooded? 

Air. James. No, they were not hooded men. 

Air. Steedman. Do you know Joseph Francis Seta? 

Mr. James. I do. He was a member of the Poston No. 1 fire 
department. On the night following the beating up of Hatsumi 
Yamada, Joseph Francis Seta went to his barracks apartment along 
about 11 o'clock and with him was his uncle. I have not the uncle's 
name here. They retired and at approximately 11:30 the door of 
their apartment was smashed down and a group of eight hooded men 
broke in and administered severe beatings to Seta, to his uncle, and 
underneath of the bed of Seta was left a sword about 4 feet long, 
made of wood, and an exact copy of a Samurai sword, with a black 
ribbon attached to it and that sword, I believe, is now in the possession 
of Ernest Aiiller, the head of the internal security department at 
Poston. 

Air. Steedman. Had Seta received advance warnings? 

Mr. James. Seta had received warnings he was to be beaten up. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9087 

Mr. Steedman. Was Seta friendly to tHe administration? 

Mr. James. He was very friendl}" to the administration. He was 
inspector for the fire department and was doing a good job inspecting 
fire hazards — the accumuhition of rubbish around houses and was 
insisting that the people clean up their premises. 

It is highly possible he made enemies there. He also had received 
certain — I believe certain correspondence courses in police work and' 
was endeavoring to help the administration b}' furnishing information, 
I think, on activities within the camp. 

I am not in possession of any information on that but I have been 
told by other people that that was the case and that that was why he 
was beaten up. 

Seta positively identified his assailants on October 18. He identified 
that party to me and to Mr. Miller. The name of that person was 
Ucliida— Isamu Uchida. Uchida was head of the judo wrestling 
organization in Poston. 

yir. Steedman. At that point I would like to ask you if the judo 
clubs, prior to Pearl Harbor, were part of the organization known as 
the Butoku-Kai or Militaiy Virtue Society? 

Mr. James. May I amplify about the Butoku-Kai according to 
the information I have on it. 

It took various forms: One was Kibei, the name for American-born 
Japanese educated in Japan. A rough designation would be overseas 
society —Kibei Shiman— that was the — it was a cultural group. 

In the case of judo, there Avas no direct tie-in with the Butoku-Kai 
except in one respect: Every 2 years from Imperial Japan, on special 
visiting permits, came instructors into San Francisco and Seattle and 
Los Angeles to bring the Japanese on the Pacific coast up-to-date and, 
presumably, to sort of inspect and see how their standards were being 
kept up. 

Mr. MuNDT. What disciplinary action was taken against the 
assailant who was positively identified in this case? 

Mr. James. At the time"^ none. Mr. Seta was sphited out of the 
camp to Glendale, Ariz., where he was able to secure a job working 
in the fields. 

Mr. MuNDT. Spirited out? 

Mr. James. Not spirited out. Let me qualify that; taken from 
the camp. 

Mr. MuNDT. After the beating that he had been the recipient of? 

Mr. James. After he finished his period in the hospital, 

Mr. MuNDT. I was askmg about what disciplinary action was taken, 
against liis assailant? 

Mr. James. Oh; Uchida? None at that time. 

Mr. MuNDT. None whatsoever? 

Mr. James. No, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. ^¥hat subsequent action was taken against hun? 

Mr. James. The name of Uchida, Congressman, will in a few 
moments enter into the events of September 14, in the second beating 
of Nishimura, which resulted in the arrest of Uchida at that time. 

Mr. MuNDT. Didn't the project head, or somebody charged with the 
administration of law and order at the project call in this assadant 
and talk to him afterwards? 



'9088 UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. To be perfectly fair I had 
better qualify this: The name of Uchida as one of the assailants of 
Joseph Jrancis Seta only popped into our files in about the first or 
second week in November after Seta's period of hospitalization and 
after he had gotten over his fright period the name came to us. That 
■was after Seta had been moved to Glendale. He talked then. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is he still at Glendale? 

Mr. James. To my knowledge he is still at Glendale. 

Mr. Steedman. 1 hand you a memorandum entitled "Chi'onology of 
Events in Disturbances at Colorado River War Relocation Project, 
November 15-November 25, 1942," and ask you if you have ever 
seen the original of this memorandum? 

(Handing document to the witness.) 

Mr. James. I have, Mr. Steedman. I prepared this myself in 
•collaboration with Capt. D. J. McFadden, who was a representative 
of Lt. Gen. John L. DeWitt. 

During the disturbances at Poston from November 14 to November 
25, this chronology was compiled from my hourly notes that I made 
during the disturbances there, supplemented by those of Captain 
McFadden and the two representatives of the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation who were with us a part of the time, and with Major 
Dykes, of the Southern Security Command, representing the military 
police. 

Mr. Steedman. So the record may be clear, did Seta go to work at 
Glendale, xiriz? 

Mr. James. What date did he go to work? 

Mr. Steedman. No; did he go to work at Glendale, Ariz? 

Mr. James. Yes; he did. 

Mr. Steedman. And that is not Glendale, Calif? 

Mr. James. No; Glendale, Ariz. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is a small town outside of Phoenix? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce into the 
record by reading this memorandum wliich I have been discussing with 
the witness. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And it is a memorandum wliich the witness himself 

prepared? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir; it is; and it is also in the files of the War 
Relocation Authority in Washington, D. C, presumably. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed to read the memorandum. 

Mr. Steedman. I am reading from the first paragraph of the page, 
dated November 14, 10:30 p. m. 

Kaj- Nishiinura, 30, Kibei, is severely beaten by unidentified group of between 
8 and 10 men in bachelor barracks block 14. 

Mr. Steedman. Was this the second time that Nisliimura was 
beaten up? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. In tliis particular case he was attacked by 
« group of hooded rhen, armed with pieces of pipe, who went to work 
on him. They bashed in his face and his nose and his eyes and 
Nishimura was taken in an unconscious condition, presumably dead, 
to the Poston General Hospital. 

For 2 days we didn't know whether he was going to live or die but he 
survived after being hospitalized for a month. 



ITN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9089" 

It was the most brutal of the succession of beatmgs that we had. 

Mr. Steedman. Had he received advance notice of the beating? 

Mr. James. He had. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the whole procedure follow the same pattern 
as the other beatings? 

^J^. James. It did, except in this case pieces of pipe were used on 
him whereas before small pieces of wood or fists were used. This was 
the first time that they were out to- kill anybody. 

The other cases they were out to terrorize them and possibly drive 
them out of camp or drive them away from the administration. 

Mr. Steedman. ^Vhere did the second beating of Nishimura occur? 

'Mr. James. It occmTed in liis barracks, bachelor barracks in block 
14. 

Mr. Steedman. Was any attempt made to find out who partici- 
pated in that assault? 

'Mr. James. Yes. That night about 15 or 20 minutes after the 
report had come in, the new internal secmity officer, Mr. Miller, who 
had been on duty since October 1, came to my barracks and aroused 
me from bed and said Mr. Head had given him orders to send out a 
dragnet and pick up everybody we thought might be implicated in 
this case. 

^Ir. Miller had not been on the job long enough to compile veiy 
much of a list. I supplied him wdth a list of betw^een 10 and 20 names 
and one of those names was that of Isuma Uchida. 

Uchida was picked up that night. The investigation continued all 
that night and most of the following day. 

Mr. Steedman. Eight at that point I would like to continue with 
the reading: 

November 15-, 2 a. m. The internal security office, under Mr. Miller, arrests 
and places in jail George Fujii, Nishimura's former brother-in-law and Isuma 
Uchida, judo wrestling instructor. 

At that point could you tell the committee whether or not Ismna 
Uchida was employed by the project as a judo instructor? 

Mr. James. He was. 

Mr. Steedman. And was he paid a salaiy? 

Mr. James. He was. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know his rate of pay? 

Mr. James. I believe it was $16 a month. 

Mr. MuNDT. Isn't this judo which is something which is taught to 
members of the Japanese Army? 

Mr. James. It is. 

Mr. MuNDT. Part of their military training? 

Mr. James. It is; that and kendo. We do not permit kendo at 
the project. Kendo, as you know, is Japanese fencing. 

Mr. MuNDT. Insofar as his instructions went, he was being paid 
with American money to teach Japanese in the same type of tech- 
niques they learn in Japan w^hen they become members of the Japanese 
Army? 

Mr. James. Similar tactics, I would say; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. As head of the judo organization at Poston, 
Uchida was a prominent Japanese? 

Mr. James. He was very popular with the Kibei group. He was a 
Kibei. He was educated in the schools of Japan and had come back 
to this country, I believe, in 1935 or '36. 



9030 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did he speak English? 

Mr. James. Brokenly; with a decided Japanese brogue. 

Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote from the memorandum: 

November 15, 11 a. m. Parents of Hatsumi Yamada receive slight beating 
by unidentified group of eight men after Yamada liad received warning on night 
•of November 14. 

Mr. Steedman. You have already referred to the beating received 
by parents of Yamada? 
Mr. James. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Steedman. Reading the fourth paragraph: 

November 16- — morning. Special Agents Rufus Coulter and Edward Smart 
•of Federal Bureau of Investigation arrive at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. You have already referred to that? 
Mr. James. Yes, sir. 
Air. Steedman (reading): 

November 17. Mr. Dillon Myer, Director of War Relocation Authority, and 
Mr. E. R. Fryer, regional director, spend the day in Poston. 

When Mr. Myer and Mr. Fryer were at Poston, did you confer 
with them? 

Mr. James. I did. May I set the picture on that, Mr. Steedman? 

Mr. Steedman. Very well. 

Mr. James. On Tuesday, November 8 or 9, Mr. John Collier, the 
Commissioner of the Indian Service — Indian Affairs, visited Poston 
and made two speeches before the Japanese evacuees. 

In those speeches which lasted approximately 1 hour each, Commis- 
sioner Collier in a very friendly talk, stressed the fact that the Poston's 
18,000 Japanese were there for the duration of the war; that the Indian 
Service was very optimistic over the possibility of developing Parker 
Valley and possibly to reach the ultimate base of 45,000 acres of land 
under cultivation; that he was hopeful that a l^ase arrangement could 
be worked out so the Japanese, for the duration of the war, would be 
actually able to share in any portion of the profits. 

The theme of liis speech was that tliis was a permanent deal. At 
that time, and I should like to have tliis a part of the record, up to 
that time I had never heard of a case of a Japanese at Poston apply- 
ing — Japanese as a group, applying for resettlement in the midlands 
of America. There have been a few cases of Japanese girls and boys 
who wanted to go to midwestern schools to continue their educations, 
but there was no organized effort on the part of the Japanese in Poston 
to be resettled elsewhere in America. 

Mr. MuNDT. That was up to the Sth or 9th of November? 

Mr. James. That is correct, sir. 

On November 17, Mr. Dillon Myer came in from the east and he 
called a general staff meeting and then had subsequent meetings with 
the Japanese. 

It was at this time that he announced liis resettlement program. 

At a staff meeting he told us, in the presence of Mr. Head, Mr. 
Gelviii, Mr. Empie, Mr. Evans, and the other administrators at Poston, 
that even his Washington office and his San Francisco office had not 
been informed yet of this drastic change in the original Eisenhower 
program to resettle the Japanese from the American Pacific coast in 
the midland area of America. 

Afr. CosTELLO. And what was that date aaain? 



UN-.\]VIERICAX PROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 9091 

Mr. James. On November 17. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That was during the trouble at Poston? 

Mr. James. During the start of the trouble. Ucliida had been 
arrested, Mr. Costello, and was held in the jail. 

Mr. Costello. And Dillon Myer was present at that time? 

Mr. James. Dillon Myer was present at that time. He stayed 
one day at the project developing this tremendous program for 
resettlement. 

I waiit that in the record to show that less than a week previously 
Commissioner Collier had come in and set forth this program for the 
Japanese, that they were to be there for the duration of the war and 
that steps were being made to assist them in the development of this 
potentially very fertile Parker Valley; that that was to be their con- 
tribution to the war effort. 

Five days later Mr. Dillon Myer came in and stated his personal 
program for the resettlement of the Japanese. 

Mr. MuxDT. Was the program of John Collier outlined in pretty 
close conformity with the program Eisenhower followed when ad- 
ministrator? 

Mr. James. Very definitely. 

Mr. Costello. Did the address of Collier seem to meet with the 
approval of the Japanese? 

Mr. James. It did. 

Mr. Costello. And when Dillon ]\Iyer went to the camp during 
the time of this trouble, did he make any investigation, to your 
Iviiowledge, of the troubles that were existing? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Costello. Did he inquire into the beatings that had taken 
place? 

.' Mr. James. He spent about an hour on the afternoon of November 
15, conferring with Mr. Ernest Miller, the new Chief of Internal 
Security. 

I happened to be present at the conversations there and he compli- 
mented Mr. MiUer upon having called the Federal Bureau of Investi- 
gation agents, Mr. Smart and Mr. Coulter, in to investigate the 
Uchida case. 

Mr. Costello. The F. B. I. men had arrived just the day before? 

Mr. James. Yes; they had arrived on the morning of the 17th. 

Mr. Costello. The day before Mr. Myer arrived? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; after being summoned by Mr. Miller over the 
telephone. 

Mr. Mundt. What was the date of Myer visit? 

Mr. James. The following day, the 17th. The F. B. I. men had 
arrived on the 16th and Myer arrived on the 17th. 

He spent the day with Mr. Fryer at Poston and left that night. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there an apparent change in the policy of 
the W. R. A. between the time of the visit of Mr. Collier and the 
visit of Mr. Myer? 

Mr. James. Yes, a decided change. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there any explanation made by Mr. Myer 
of this change? 

Mr. James. None. He said he had been giving it some thought for 
quite awhile and he was convinced of several things; first of all the 
problem of the Japanese, both American-born and aliens was tied in 



9092 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

with what was to be done with them after the war. He said the only 
solution he could see was to resettle them as quickly as possible. 

Mr. Steedman. In the Middle West? 

Mr. James. In the Middle West; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Myer impress you as having any knowl- 
edge of the Japanese people? 

Mr. James. I am not acquainted with Mr. Myer's activities. I 
have no knowledge, of his presence on the Pacific coast prior to Pearl 
Harbor or of any associations or societies to which he belongs that 
might be interested in the study of Japanese people. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You had never met him before coming to the camp? 

Mr. James. That is correct. I had not met Air. Dillon Myer be- 
fore. I was, however, acquainted with his record in the Agricultural 
Adjustment Administration. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, he has been a Government 
official in Washington for many years, hasn't he? 

Mr. James. I believe he has, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. And so far as you know he would have to fix his 
policy with reference to the resettlement of Japanese, on reports 
received from the relocation centers? 

Mr. James. I presume he would, from both the San Franciscp 
regional office and from the various project officials. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did I understand you to say that Mr. Myer, in his 
speech, said the problem of the detention of the Japanese during the 
war was tied in with the permanent resettlement program? 

Mr. James. No ; he felt there was a tremendous post-war problem as 
to what would be done with the people ; that if they stayed in the cen- 
ters that to aid the war effort, this manpower should be released to 
productive use in areas of the United States where they could be 
accepted and as a collateral pomt in connection with that, the post- 
war problem would be greatly diminished; they would be permanently 
resettled in small communities throughout the United States. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did he indicate to the Japanese that this resettlement 
would be on a permanent basis and would continue after the war? 

Mr. James. Yes; that they would be permanently resettled in the 
Midwest. 

Mr. MuNDT. He indicated that being settled in the Midwest now 
they would be settled there for all time to come? 

Mr, James. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. So, so far as the Japanese were concerned they left 
that meeting with the impression that it was the policy of the United 
States Government to permit them to reside permanently in the 
areas to which they were then being resettled? 

Mr. James. No; I can't quite make it that simple, Congressman. 
They left there with complete confusion. They had not known Mr. 
Myer prior to his visit on November 17. They had rather looked 
to Mr. Collier as the highest representative of the Government. At 
least he was the highest Government representative whom they had 
come in contact with. When once they had been told they were there 
for the duration of the war they had made the tremendous adjust- 
ment to desert living and the abnormal temperatures you have 
down there and the frontier type of life. They were prepared to 
meet that change and stay there. 



UN-.\MERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9093 

I am not hero to question Mr. Myer's policy. I am just stating 
this as a fact. 

Then 5 days later the head of the W. R. A. comes in and proceeded 
to tell them that they were going to be, as quickly as possible, moved 
out and resettled. 

Mr. Stekdman. Did Mr. Myer make a speech to the Japanese? 

Mr. James. Yes; he did. 

Mr. CosTELLO. About how many Japanese attended the speech? 

Mr. James. I don't know. I believe the Poston paper has an 
account of that. I am sure the issue of November 18 would give 
the transcript of his speech. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Do they have an assembly place where the Japanese 
can congregate? 

Mr. James. Yes; I would say at least 2,000 heard him. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did he make more than one speech to groups there 
or not? 

Air. James. I believe he made two addresses; one before a group of 
leaders — block managers and the members of the temporary com- 
munity councils and then later to the people themselves. 

Mr. INIuNDT. In announcing his program of resettlement did he 
also impress upon the Japanese that they were to be settled in the 
Middle West or did he just say: "Resettled." 

Mr. James. I would have to check the speech. I am trying to 
recall this from memory. 

To my knowledge he did not mention the Pacific coast at any 
time in his speech. Now, whether he made a broad statement some- 
where in that speech that they would be resettled throughout the 
United States, I don't remember. 

Mr. MuNDT. I am trying to determine whether he designated the 
Middle West. That is what I am, trying to find out. You are not 
positive of that? 

Mr. James. To the best of my knowledge he did not mention any- 
thing except the "midland area," and certainly in his discussions with 
the staff there he made it quite clear to us that they were to be re- 
settled only in the midwestern area. 

Mr. Costello. He announced, did he, that this was a program he 
had been thuiking over for some time? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; he made it quite clear to us that even his 
Washington office did not know about that nor did the big regional 
office in San Francisco. 

Mr. Costello. He didn't incUcate that he had consulted with any- 
body else before arriving at that conclusion? 

Mr. James. No, he assumed the personal responsibility for it. As I 
recall those were his exact words. 

Mr. Costello. That was never indicated before — ^thaf the Japs 
were to be settled in any other area other than Poston — where they 
were? 

Mr. James. Up to November 17, Mr. Costello, they firmly beheved 
that their destiny lay in staying at Poston and pioneering the desert 
fife and developing Parker Valley. 

Mr. Costello. And the only occasion they might expect to leave 
the camp would be for work purposes or educational purposes and that 
their permanent home would be at Poston? 

Mr. James. That is right. 



9094 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. And insofar as his speech held impUcations, it im- 
plied their homes — permanent homes, were going to be in the area 
where they were resettled? 

Mr. James. That is right. And the first effect was to cause, in a 
number of families I loiew — take in the case of older people, that 
caused the fear that their children would leave them and settle out 
and they would have to stay back in Poston — they would not be able 
to go out because of their age. 

Mr. MuNDT. In other words the reaction to the Myer's speech on 
the part of the Japanese was not as favorable as to the Collier speech? 

Mr. James. At the start it was not. Later on their hopes began 
to rise but at the start it caused fear. 

Mr. Steedman. The Japanese just didn't know whom to believe, 
did they? 

Mr. James. That is correct. It caused confusion as it necessarily 
would, such a drastic change in policy. 

Mr. Steedman. Continuing to read from the memorandum, Mr. 
Chairman: 

November 18, 9 a. m. : Jim Yahiro and a committee of seven called on Project 
Director Head, requesting the immediate release" of Fujii and Uchida and the 
squelching of all charges. 

Mr. Head sends them to Mr. L. L. Nelson, his executive assistant. In the 
meeting Mr. Nelson is informed that the previous evening a testimonial meeting 
had been held and it is the unanimous opinion of all the representatives of the 
Japanese people in camp No. 1, that Fujii and Uchida are innocent of the charges. 
They further request that they be permitted to interview the F. B. I. agents. 

The note made at 10:30 a. m., November 18, reads as follows: 

Agents Coulter and Smart meet with this group. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin 
leave for Salt Lake City to attend conference of W, R. A. projects directors with 
Mr. Myer. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin know this agitation 
was going on when they left Poston for Salt Lake City? 

Mr. James. They knew the steps that had occurred — the sequence 
of events, Mr, Steedman, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And they were advised that trouble was brewing 
at Poston before they left? 

Mr. James. They were. 

Mr. Steedman. Who did they leave in charge of the center? 

Mr. James. Mr. John Evans, the imit administrator of Poston 1. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did Mr. Myer accompany them when they left 
the camp? 

Mr. James. No. Mr. Myer left for Phoenix and from Phoenix he 
went to Salt Lake City. I believe he made a stop at the Gila River 
project to announce the same resettlement program that he had 
announced at Poston. Then he proceeded to Salt Lake City. 

Mr. CosTELLO. What date did he leave Poston? 

Mr. James. He left Poston on the evening of Nos^ember 17, as I 
recall. He was driven by automobile to Phoenix. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether Mr. Myer had requested Mr. 
Head and Mr. Empie to meet him at Salt Lake City? 

Mr. James. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin, yes. They were requested 
in writing to appear at the regional director's meeting. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was Mr. Myer to be present at. that meeting also? 

Air. James. Yes. 



UN-.\]MERIC.\X PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9095 

Mr. MuNDT. Before that request was transmitted to Mr. Head and 
Mr. Empie, did Mr. Myer know about this trouble? 

Mr. James. He did. 

Mr. IMuNDT. At Poston? 

Mr. James. He did. but I don't think he saw the implications in 
it, though. 

Mr. MuNDT. Probably not, but he did know that a near murder 
had been committed there? 

Mr. James. He did. 

Mr. Steedman. Who did ]Mr. Myer leave in charge of the center 
when he and Mr. Head and ]Mr. Gelvin went to Salt Lake City? 

Mr. James. \h\ John Evans, administrator of the first unit at 
Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. How long had Mr. Evans been employed at the 
center? 

Mr. James. Smce, approximately, May 1942. 

Mr. Steedmax. Do you know what ]SIr. Evans' salary was? 

Mr. James. I imagine it was about $4,800 a year. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he go to Poston originally as a dollar-a-year 
man? 

Mr. James. I am under the impression he did. He was a friend 
of Commissioner Collier. He is a man of considerable wealth him- 
self, Mr. Evans is, and I believe he came out there without either a 
dollar a year or without any salary at the start of the project, and then 
he was given a civil-ser\'ice rating. 

Mr. Steedman. Had Mr. Evans had any previous experience with 
Japanese people? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. I have never known him to 
have been associated with them or having studied Japanese such as 
is taught in the Institute of Pacific Relations, or any of the qualified 
groups on the Pacific coast. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact jMr. Evans was an easterner, 
wasn't he? 

Mr. James. That is correct; from Maine. I would like to say for 
the record he w^as competent — very competent in matters of business 
administration — the routine things as administrator of unit 1 . 

Mr. Steedman. Continuing to read from the memorandum: 

11 a. m.: A crowd starts to form in front of the camp No. 1 jail. Speeches 
are made urging a general strike in sympathy with the prisoners. 

2 p. m.: Mr." John Evans, assistant project director and acting project direc- 
tor in the absence of Project Director Head, makes a speech before the crowd 
and urges them to disperse and go home. This thej' refused to do. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just a question there to clarify my own information 
on tills. These notes from which you are reading are notes which 
Mr. James took on the ground at the time? 

Mr. James. Exacth^ I was there continuously during the time, 
night and day. 

Mr. MuNDT. As intelligence officer? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. I am continuing to read from the memorandum: 

2:30 p. m.: Mr. Evans meets with members of the community council of 
camp Xo. 1 and suggests the council get in touch with the crowd and make 
recommendations. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the community council of camp 1 composed of 
Japanese? 



9096 Uisr-AIVIERICAN PJROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. James. It was American-born Japanese under the directions 
issued by the War Relocation Authority from Washington, D. C. 
At that time only American-born Japanese could serve on the elective 
council. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was any distinction made between the Japanese 
educated in tliis country and the Japanese educated in Japan? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The only qualification was that of American-born? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But a Kibei could serve on the council? 

Mr. James. Correct. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were there many IGbeis members of the council? 

Mr. James. There were some, Mr. Costello. I don't know how 
many at the time. I could tell if I saw the list. 

Mr. Steedman. But they had an Issei advisory board to the council; 
did they not? 

Mr. James. They did; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Made up of alien Japanese? 

Mr. James. Made up of alien Japanese ; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Reading further from the meinorandum: 

4 p.m.: Mr. Evans meets again with the council. The council makes unanimous 
recommendation that both Uchida and Fujii be released unconditionally. Mr. 
Evans refuses to accept this proposal, and as a result both the council and the Issei 
-advisory board resign. 

Mr. Steedman. We have here a picture of the Issei taking the part 
of Uchida, the head of the Judo Club; isn't that correct? 

Mr. James. That is correct. There was pressm-e, possibly intimida- 
tion brought against the council. They had no choice but to resign, 
which they did. 

Mr. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum) : 

6 p. m.: Mr. Evans calls a staff meeting and notifies them of the situation. 
The Federal Bureau of Investigation agexits who were present, recommended that 
the military police be called in to patrol Poston 1, and told Mr. Evans that they 
had notified military intelligence and that Lt. Gen. J. L. DeWitt had been apprised 
of the situation, and as a, result it would not be necessary for the project to send 
formal notice to General DeWitt. Later Lieutenant Young, in charge of the 
military police unit assigned to the Poston project, came and sat in with the staff 
discussion. After weighing the facts, Mr. Evans decides that for the present he 
would not request the military police to enter camp No. 1, but requests Lieutenant 
Young to patrol the roads outside the camp and to place a guard at the motor pool. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Evans oppose the other members of the 
staff in refusing to call in the military police? 

Mr. James. That is correct; there was a division between the staff. 
^ Mr. Steedman. Did some of the members of the staff think an 
•emergency existed and that the military police should be inside the 
«amp to protect the camp and the Caucasian personnel? 

Mr. James. That is correct. I thinlc Mr. H. W. Smith, the chief 
fiscal officer, working under Mr. Empie, pointed out at that time that 
Mr. Evans was unable to protect $10,000,000 worth of Govermnent 
property and was unable to protect the lives of the American-born 
Japanese who had been warned and more or less terrorized within 
the camp. 

Mr. Eberharter. What position did you take in that conference? 

Mr. James. Under my position as the representative of the W. R. A., 
I was not given a voice in the project's administrative affairs. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9097 

Mr. Eberharter. You were not at the conference? 

Mr. James. I was at the conference. I merely submitted the facts 
as I saw them at the camp. 

Mr. Eberharter. You had no voice in what went on there? 

Mr. James. I had no vote because I was not attached to the project 
administration. 

Mr. Eberharter. And you were not permitted to make recom- 
mendations? 

Mr. James. That is correct; yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was there present at that staff meeting a man by the 
name of Townsend? 

Mr. James. Mr, H. H. Townsend? Yes; he was present. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do you recall whether he made any recommenda- 
tions? 

Mr. James. I don't know. Mr. Townsend at that time was in a 
httle bit of a pathological condition. When you have 1G,000 Japanese 
people thrown at you it sometimes does strange things to people. I 
think Mr. Townsend had developed a completely abnormal sense of 
values as to what was happening. I think he was basically right on 
some of the positions he took, though. 

Mr. MuNDT. You don't recall whether he recommended one thing 
or the other at the time? 

!Mr. James. I don't recall. He was in a highly emotional state of 
mind during all our trouble and during the period that he was there. 

He was a very capable man. I happen to know his record. He came 
to us with a very fine record in civilian life, but after being with us 
about a month, as I say, the contact wdth the Japanese probably 
destroyed his usefulness in being able to handle them. 

That quite frequently happens, gentlemen, with people who have 
had no experience ^^^th Japanese. It is very easy to either become 
Japanese lovers or, on the other hand, to swing to the other point of 
view. 

At the project you have to get work done and do a job as best you 
can. In Air. Townsend's case, I feel, with no discredit to him at all, 
having to see 18,000 of these people every day and do business with 
them, sort of got him down. 

That is purely my personal opinion and I toss it in for what it is 
worth. I have great respect for his previous record in civilian life 
and also for some of the things he did at Poston. I got along very 
well with him in my own capacity. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

Late evening: The block managers of Poston Camp No. 1 resign. 

First indications of a de facto committee as two representatives call at staff 
meeting and arrange for the continued operation of subsistence, police and fire 
departments and hospital. Mr. Evans approves these arrangements. 

November 10, 4 a. m.: Telephone call put in to Director Head and Mr. Gelvin 
at Hotel Utah, Salt Lake City. 

Eleven a. m.: Staff is notified by Mr. Evans that the two Federal Bureau of 
Investigation agents had withdrawn from the ca.^e and are not pressing their 
investigation and do not want the prisoners, Fujii and Uchida, hcid iur them. 

Mr. Steedman. Why did the Federal Bureau of Investigation 
withdraw in this case? 

Mr. James. Mr. Smart told me he was unable to complete his- 
case against either of these two men. 



9098 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

In the case of Mr. George Fujii he sunply wanted to give him a 
handwi'iting test to find out whether he had wi-itten an extortion 
note thi-eatening the Hfe of one Lyle Kurisaki, a former Hoppville, 
Calif., produce man, who had been arrangmg the Japanese members 
of the Poston Department of Agriculture — a man very loyal to the 
administration. 

Mr. Kurisaki, for the sake of the record, had been beaten up back 
in October — in the latter part of October — both he and his wife ajid 
their 18-year-old boy. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were they hospitalized at that time? 

Mr. James. Yes; they were hospitalized. I think we should have 
that in the record to complete the list of beatings. 

Mr. MuNDT. Had he received this extortion note prior to the 
beating? 

Mr. James. After the fii'st beating; and the F. B. I. wanted to 
compare Fujii's handwriting with the handwriting in the note. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did they make the comparison? 

Mr. James. They were unable to do it. 

Mr. MuNDT. Why? 

Mr. James. Because the jail was surromided by this big crowd 
and neither of the F. B. I. men were going to risk going through the 
line. 

Mr. MiTNOT. In other words the milling crowd was a serious enough 
menace to peace and security so that members of the F. B. I. were 
reluctant to try to get through the crowd to get to the jail to carry 
out their duties? 

Mr. James. I judge from what they told me that they took that 
position. 

Mr. Steedman. When did the mob seize the jail? 

Mr. James. Actually the crowd at 11 a. m. on the mornmg of 
November 18, the crowd started to form in front of the camp No. 1 
jail. SometuTie later that evening picket Imes were established by a 
certain number of Japanese from each block. 

There were a certain number of Japanese from each block who 
were required to stand guard duty night and day. Each block had 
a quota and they had to do it. 

Mr. CcsTELLO. About how many people did that place in the 
picket line? 

Mr. James. Never less than 500. Congressman Costello. 

Mr. Costello. It was more of a mob than a picket hne, wasn't it? 

Mr. James. It was an army camp. I will put it that way — ^it. 
was an army camp. They actually needed to camp overnight and it 
was cooler in November there. The evenings used to get down to 
around 25 above zero and in the desert that is quite cool. They 
were improvising blankets with pieces of canvas and they built 
small pup tents and camped there overnight with their fires. 

Mr. Costello. They set up an entirely new housing project of 
tneir own encircling the jail? 

Mr. James. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is the -lay-out of the camp such that that jail is 
visible from the administration building? 

Mr. James. Visible at a distance, Congressman. It is a half mile. 

Mr. MuNDT. I mean can the jail be seen from the administration 
building? 



UN-A]VIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9099 

Mr. James. No; it couldn't be seen from the administration build- 
ing. There are barracks in between the administration building. It 
is only a one-story building. 

Mr. MuNDT. Could the crowd surrounding the jail be seen from 
the headquarters of the warehouses of the camp? 

Mr. James. They could be heard. They were maldng a racket. 

Mr. MuNDT. Could they be heard at the administration building? 

Mr. James. Yes; they could. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Was the jail isolated to any degree? 

Mr. James. No; the jail is right in the center of the camp — right 
in the center of it. Only a half a mile away at most. The camp is 
exactly a mile square and the sounds of a milling mob could be heard 
quite easily. 

Mr. Steedman. As a mattej* of fact wasn't the camp which you 
mention as being set up around the jail, set up in mihtary fashion? 

Mr. James. In my estimation it was laid out in military fashion; 
yes. Certainly the tents were in such a way that they were a darn 
good imitation of pup tents and they were laid out in rows, and disci- 
pline was maintained. 

Some of our old Isseis have told me that they served in the Russo- 
Japanese War and I think there was enough military brains to lay 
out a good mihtary camp. . 

Mr. Steedman. Who was in charge of this camp around the jail? 

Air. James. There was a de facto committee that ran the strike. 
We don't know to this day who was in charge because of the reticence 
of these people. We do not know to this day who was the quarter- 
back on the Tojo team. It was very difficult to get behind them 
because they work by committees. 

In other words you might have to knock down six or eight inter- 
mediate groups and somewhere in the background maybe some very 
innocent looking old-timer, or perhaps an American-born Japanese 
would be the one who did it. 

Mr. Steedman. Was — — — — ^ involved? 

Mr. James. He was. He was on the picket line. I would like 
to have that name left out, if you please. That man is being investi- 
gated. 

Mr. Steedman. Wasn't he in actual charge of the so-called picket 
line or mob around the camp? 

Mr. James. He was in charge of one shift. 

Mr. Steedman. Of the picket line? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; of the pickets and helped in the organization 
of the laying out of the camp. 

^ is 60 years old. He is a former Russo-Japanese 

War veteran. You can use that reference but don't use his name. 

Mr. Steedman. Did he have a reputation at the camp as having 
been a colonel in the Japanese Army? 

Mr. James. He went by the title of Rilca Gun Sho Tai, which is the 
Japanese equivalent for colonel, rika means land; gun is army; Sho is 
commander, and tai is the equivalent of colonel in the Japanese Army. 

Mr. MuNDT. In your civihan capacity, Mr. James, as a reporter 
for newspapers before the war, did you ever see a strike? 

Mr. James. Yes, I have. 

» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



9100 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. MuNDT. From a reportorial standpoint, if you had been 
assigned to this beat, what would you have reported to have taken 
place at this camp? Would you have reported it as a "disturbance"? 

Mr. James. I covered a launching at one time where I saw a milling 
crowd. I would call it a "milling crowd." 

Maybe these gentlemen will disagree with me. It was a crowd 
in an angry mood and it developed very definitely into an antiM^hite 
feeling. Let us put it on that basis. 

Mr. MuNDT. A belligerent crowd? 

Mr. James. Belligerent, yes. I felt at no time any personal 
danger there. I think most of us felt that way because that is the 
smarter thing to do. You assume an attitude, knowing darn well it 
is a question of bluff, that no one is going to do you any harm. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It was sufficiently serious, however, that anything 
might have developed out of it on a moment's notice. 

Mr. James. It could have blown up like that. Of course it was 
just filled with potential dynamite. 

Mr. CosTELLO. If the right thing had happened, there would have 
been destruction of property or violence to persons? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. On November 19, did you see pictures being 
carried of American soldiers with ropes around their necks? 

Mr. James. I saw one picture in front ot block 21 mess hall and 
so did Mr. Evans — a picture made on a torn section of a cardboard 
carton of an American soldier hung in effigy with a rope around his 
neck. 

I don't laiow who put it up. We were never able to identify it. 

Mr. CosTELLO. "A crayon drawing? 

Mr. James. Yes; rather crude. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was thepicture tacked to the Avail? 

Mr. James. The picture had been tacked to the wall, yes. It was 
on heavy cardboard such as you would get from a big carton. As I 
recall it was about this long and about this high [indicating]. 

Mr. MuNDT. A placard? 

Mr. James. Yes; with Japanese expressions on it. I was never 
able to get those. I tried to get those but the picture was definitely 
of an American man in uniform, in olive drab Ivhaki of om- soldiers, 
and there were no slant eyes on his face, so I presume it wasn't repre- 
senting a Japanese. 

Mr. MuNDT. You had no reason to assume that they were shedding 
tears over the particular status of that unfortunate American soldier? 

Mr. James. None whatever. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 12:40 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of the 
same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The hearing was resumed, pursuant to the taking of the noon 
recess, at 2 p. m.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order, and Mr. Steedman, 
will you proceed with the questioning of the witness? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTEiS 9)01 

TESTIMONY OF NORRIS W. JAMES— Resumed 

Mr. Steedman. Directing your attention to the riot that occurred 
at Poston beginning on November 18, 1942, was the Japanese lan- 
guage used exclusively by the rioters or strikers during that period? 

Mr. James. It was, Mr. Steedman, in the speeches that were given 
ill front of the jail in Poston No. 1. It replaced English entirely on 
the posters used throughout the camp and all of the official transac- 
tions of the de facto government of Poston. English had entirelv 
disappeared . 

Mr. Steedman. Had the Japanese been using the English language 
on their posters and on billboards and m their conversations at the 
project prior lo the strike or riot? 

Mr. James. To a negligible extent — 'pardon me — did you say 
English or Japanese? 

Mr. Steedman. English. 

Mr. James. English was the predominant language in Poston up to 
the time of the trouble. 

Mr. Steedman. Had they used Japanese in preparing their posters 
prior to that tunc? 

Mr. James. Very, very seldom; perhaps to advertise a show in 
Japanese but never for public announcements. 

Mr. Steedman. Has any one translated the posters that were used? 

Mr. James. We were unable to secure translations after this trouble 
was over — the trouble — the posters disappeared. 

Mr. Steedman. And no one knows what was on the posters? 

Mr. James. No one knows what was on them; no. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you recognize any of the Japanese characters 
on the posters? 

Mr. James. I recognized a few of them, but because of my Ihnited 
knowledge of the language itself, I was unable to make any trans- 
lation. 

Captain McFadden was there, and he was not conversant with the 
language either. 

!Mr. Steedman. Did you question the friendly Japanese at Poston 
regarding the written characters on the posters. 

Mr. James. I rocall that I had several conversations; yes. The 
character of most of the posters was directions on the strike — orders 
as to how many should report from each block. 

I think I told you this morning that there was a fixed number of 
pickets that had to be supplied by each block for each shift. They 
maintained pickets 24 hours around the clock, around the Poston jail. 

Mr. Steedman. Were these picketers secured by intimidation and 
threat of violence? 

Mr. James. In certain instances I am sure they were. I can't 
speak for all instances. I do know that in block 6, according to the 
testimony given me by a Japanese woman down there, she and her 
group were locked in the mess hall for a period of — the greater portion 
of a day while they were receiving instructions from Juro Omori, a 
strike leader now confined in the Santa Fe, N. Mex., internment 
camp, and told exactly what they would have to do or else. 

If you want the name of the woman 1 will give it to you off the 
record. Her name is ,^ formerly of Bakersfield, Calif. 

» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 
62626 — 43— vol. 15 18 



9102 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS 

Mr. .CosTELLO. I might state for the press that name is not to be 
used; it is off the record and I request you do not take down or use 
the name. 

Mr. Steedman. ■ ^ had been friendly to the adminis- 
tration of the camp? 

Mr. James. She had been one of my interpreters at the intake 
center which I described this morning. She had been in charge of 
making the prehminary check on the personnel as they came in to 
see what immediate jobs they could be placed in. I would like to 
also put in the record for further reference, that in Bakersfield, Calif., 
she had acted as an interpreter for the district attorney and also for 
the F. B. I. officials in Kern County. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated this morning that the Japanese 
had access to a loudspeaking system or public-address system at the 
center. How did they obtain that system? 

Mr. James. I don't think I testified to that this morning, but in 
this particular mstance — I am not very sure how they got it. It 
could have been secured in one of two ways. However, that loud- 
speaker system was brought in for use in recreational work at the 
project or it was shipped in piecemeal and assembled. 

I would like to make clear m the record that during this period of 
the disturbance, and prior to it, roughly from May, the early part of 
May, through these disturbances, there was no inspection of parcel- 
post mail that came in. That came about subsequent to when the 
military police, acting on orders from General DeWitt, instituted a 
check of contraband coming through the mail — contraband consisting 
of such things as shcrt-wave radios or parts thereof, alcoholic liquor, 
firearms, cameras, and things of that sort. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the items such as you have just mentioned, 
alcoholic liquors and short-wave radios and weapons, being shipped 
into the camp prior to that order? 

Mr. James. Not to my loiowledge; they could have been. 

Mr. Steedman. Then why did General DeWitt go to the trouble of 
putting this order into effect? 

Mr. James. As they came in from the coast and were processed 
through the intake centers, their belongings were searched by the 
military police. There was a baggage inspection^ as they came in, 
Mr. Steedman, but in that period which I have just described, roughly 
from the middle of May to the period of the disturbance, there was 
no check on parcel-post packages. 

Mr. Steedman. If any check was made, the Japanese were doing it, 
were they not? 

Mr. James. Not in the post office. The post office was run entirely 
by Caucasians under the Post Office Department. 

Mr. Stpiedman. But other material coming in by freight or express 
was handled by Japanese, was it not? 

Mr. James. It was being checked by Japanese, that is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. And that is just about the same as having no check 
at all, isn't it? 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Now, returning to the public-address system in 
the center. Was the loudspeaker system used in front of the jail 
during the period of the riot? 

Mr. James. It was. 



» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UIs'-AMERICAX PROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 9103 

Mr. CosTELLo. May I inquii-e there— we had some testimony to 
the effect that possibly the loudspeaker was brought in there through 
some church organization. 

Mr. James. It might have been, Mr. Costello. 1 am not sme 
where that loudspeaker came from. It may possibly have belonged 
to a church organization. It may have belonged to one of the recrea- 
tional units. 

Mr. Costello. It was not acquhed by the project itself for project 
purposes? 

Mr. James. That is correct. It was not Government property 
because at that time to my knowledge we had no Government loud- 
speaker system within Poston. 

On the other hand it was not contraband. I want to make it clear 
the loudspeaker system was not contraband under the terms of Gen- 
eral De\Yitt's order. 

Mr. Costello. It was set up in the camp and the authorities knew 
of its existence? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese strikers or rioters take charge 
of the loudspeaker system? 

Mr. James. They produced it and used it. 

Mr. Steedman. Did they commandeer it? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. What did they use the public-address system for? 

Mr. James. They used it for speeches in Japanese — speeches of 
various kmds, instructions to the strikers or oratory of one sort or 
another and also for playing the records, canned records of Japanese 
music. 

Mr. Steedman. What type of Japanese music was played over the 
loudspeaker system? 

Mr. James. Some of .the most famous marching songs used by the 
Imperial Japanese Army units. 

Mr. Steedman. Japanese marching music? 

Mr. James. Japanese marching music; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Would you recognize the Kimagawa if you were 
to hear it played? 

Mr. James. I would. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether the Kimagawa was played 
during the period of the strike? 

Mr. James. I believe it was. I could tell you if I heard it, Mr. 
Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. If you heard it plaj^ed on a record you would 
recognize it? 

Mr. James. I would recognize it if it had been played at Poston. 

Mr. Costello. We might insert in the record at this point that 
that is the Japanese national anthem. 

Mr. James. Yes. As I say, I would want to hear it to refresh 
my memory — hear it played again. 

'Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, we will make arrangements to 
have it played. 

Mr. James. I don't want to go on record as sa3nng the Japanese 
national anthem was played, but I can identify it if it was one of 
the numbers that was played. 



9104 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS 

Mr. CosTELLO. The comnfittee will make arrangements to play it 
and then you may make a statement at that time as to whether or 
not it is one of the numbers you heard played during the riot. 

Mr. Steedman. But Japanese military music, martial music, was 
"played over the loudspeaker system during the riot at the center? 

Mr. James. During the -night and days of the trouble I described 
at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Did they use the loudspeaker system all night? 

Mr. James. Most of the night, too. 

Mr. Steedman. To keep the people awake; is that it? 

Mr. James. Supposedly. 

Mr. Steedman. Did it keep the people awake? 

Mr, James. Yes, we lost some sleep. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there a curfew in force at the camp at that 
time? 

Mr. James. No; we never had a curfew at Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Prior to the strike did the project administration 
permit loud noises during the night? 

Mr. James. That, I believe, and again I am expressing an opinion; 
I believe that was left to the Japanese. I believe in some blocks, 
individual blocks, they did set up rules and regulations that radios 
should be turned off or phonographs should be turned off after such 
and such a time in the evening — along about 11 o'clock so the old- 
tjmers could get some sleep, but no curfew was set up by the project 
director. 

Mr. Steedman. Were all the self-imposed rules broken during the 
strike or riot? 

Mr. James. That is right. It was complete political and economic 
chaos in Poston center during the riot. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the Caucasian employees able to secure sleep 
during the period of this strilce? 

Mr. James. Yes; we managed to sleep as well as one could under 
the circumstances. 

Mr. Costello. I might inquire here, did you listen to any of the 
speeches that were being made over the broadcasting system? 

Mr. James. I did. In one instance I had a translator or inter- 
preter along with mo, .^ Do you want to go into that? 

Mr. Steedman. I would lilvc to go into that a little later. 

Mr. Costello. Can you tell us the nature of the remarks broad- 
cast over the system? 

Mr. James. Yes. This speech was made not only during the 
period of the stril^e but 2 or 3 days afterward. It was made in 
block — it was in the 40 's. For the sake of the record I will say in 
block 44. It was made by, I wiU give the name and then request the 
name be kept out of the record, it was given by .^ 

Mr. Costello. That name is off the record, 

Mr, James. — ^ is a man 57 years old. He is a bachelor. 

He arrived in Poston May 23, 1942, from Delano, Calif, 

The substance of 's ^ talk was this: That Japan was 

going to win the war; that he officially represented the Imperial 
Japanese Govermnent in Poston. That all Japanese who sided with 
him in his program would be rewarded with 10,000 yen after the war 

s Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9105 

was ovor, presuming: that the Imperial Japanese Government was 
going to win. 

Unknown to me at the time Mr. John Evans had his own inter- 
preter and translator in there and proceeded to get a digest of this 

talk cither when ^ ^lade it from the platform or when 

he subsequently made the same speech in block 44 — a similar version 
of 's ^ speech. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did you hear him give that speech during the strike? 

Mr. James. This was given during the strike and also given a few 
days after the strike and was given a week or so later. 

This is important because it ties in with Poston No. 2 by one 
.^ And that name is off the record. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Keep that name off the record. 

Mr. James. In Poston No. 2 » ^^^s subsequently 

picked up by the F. B. I. and is now in the Santa Fe, N. Mex., intern- 

mejit camp, but he gave practically the same address that 

^ gave . 

Air. MuNDT. \\hat was the reaction of the Japanese audience to 
that speech? 

Mr. James. It was rather diflScult to tell, Congressman. I think 
I can best describe it by saying that the emotions of the camp were 
pretty largely that of an antiwhite attitude. I can't go any farther 
than that in describing how many people he converted or how well 
the promise of 10,000 yen reward clicked. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did the Japanese cheer and applaud his statements? 

Mr. James. They are not great on that. They will yell a few 
"banzais" and it is difficult to tell what they are cheering for. He 
got a very good reception. 

Mr. MuNDT. And yom- reaction was what? 

Mr. James. I would say in the Issei and Kibei cu'cles — that is fh'st 
generation and American born and educated in Japan, it was pretty 
well received. The Nisei, that is those born in this country and can't 
understand the language, didn't know what the score was all about. 
They were just drawn into the thing emotionally on this wave of anti- 
Caucasianism — anti-Hakujin attitude that developed in the camp. 

Mr. MuNDT. But some of them could have been coerced into it? 

Mr. James. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Were there many of the Nisei who have been 
educated in this country who do not understand the Japanese langu- 
age? 

Mr. James. There are a great many who cannot read or write the 
language. 

Mr. Costello. But do they speak it? 

Mr. James. They can speak a little of it but not enough to, perhaps, 
understand a bit of the oratory such as ^ went into. 

Mr. ]VIuNDT. Is ^ also in an internment camp now? 

Mr. James. ^ is not in an internment camp. He is in 

Poston. 

For the sake of the record I would like to say that at the time, from 

the period when '^ came in on May 2.3, 1942, up to the 

time of the general strike or walk-out or disturbance, ' 

was employed at Poston as a goh — that is a Japanese carfl game, at 
$16 a month. I don't know what his present wage is. 

» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



9106 UN-AMERICAK. PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. He was employed to instruct them in the playing 
of cards? 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is that a part of the recreational facilities of the 
camp? 

Mr. James. I wouldn't knoM-; that is apparently it. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was there any disciplinary action taken against hina 
for his inflammatory speeches? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. MuNDT. And he has not been segregated from the other 
Japanese up to this time, so far as you know? 

Mr. James. No. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Had you completed the substance of the speech he 
gave? 

Mr. James. Yes. As I sa}', Mr. Evans also had a translation. 
We compared notes afterward and he, I believe, gave his version of the 

speech to Mr. Head or reported it to him — ^the gist of — — 's ^ 

speech before the Japanese. 

Mr. Costello. You don't know whether Mr. Evans spoke to him 
about the speech? 

Mr. James. I don't know. 

Mr. Costello. You wouldn't know whether Mr. Head called him 
into the office to discuss the matter with him? 

Mr. James. I don't know; but I do know — ^ has been 

continuously investigated by the F. B. I. 

Mr. Costello. You say he repeated that speech in block 44? 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. Costello. How manj' days after? 

Mr. James. I should say a week, about a week after that. 

Mr. Costello. About a week? 

Air. James. Early in December. It would be the first week in 

December or the last week in November that ^ repeated 

that speech. 

Mr. Costello. That would be after the trouble at Poston had 
quieted down? 

Mr. James. That is correct. ^ was occupying a posi- 
tion of importance with the de facto government thrown up after the 
strike. 

Mr. Costello. If Mr. Evans or Mr. Head spoke to him about the 
speech and asked him to refrain from repeating it and so on, it evi- 
dently had no effect. 

Mr. James. It might have been that ^ was called on 

his speech by Mr. Evans or Mr. Head — I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Did any of the other ieadei's of the strike movement 
speak over the loudspeaker system? 

Mr. James. They did. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what the substance of their speeches 
was? 

Mr. James. I do not. I did not Avant to expose my interpreter to 
any harm. She is still off the record. It is not known that she worked 
for me and I have protected her ever since. She is one of the women 
who knoA^s the liighly intricate language and is capable of giving a 
true version of what went on. 



3 Kame stricken from the reeord at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9107 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know Avbethor or not any of the speeches 
made over the hnuispeaker system were inflammatory? 

Mr. James. 1 judiie they were from what I have heard. 

Mr. Steedman. That is from talking to Japanese Avho understand 
the Japanese language? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. When I say ''inflammatory," were the speeches 
infiammatoiy against the project administration? 

Mr. James. Yes; inflammatory against the project administration. 

I know that one speech was made by one ^ 

Mr. CosTELLo. And that name is off the record? 

Mr. James. A farmer formerly from Ontario, Calif., a Kibei, 
which was inflammatory and criticizing Mr. Head. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Was there criticism directed merely to the project 
administration heads and the administration project, or did it go 
beyond that to other Americans? 

Mr. James. No; entirely to the project administration. 

— ^ speech, to the best of my recollection, urged the Japanese — 

that is those who were hstening to him and understood Japanese, to 
side with him and his group; that they were prepared to take over 
the administration. That was the basis of his speech. 

Air. Costello. It was the gist of his talk to incite the Japanese to 
take command of the camp and assume control of the camp? 

Mr. James. Yes; not necessarily through force. It was not 
necessarily an implication of force but tln-ough showing force they 
believed they could force the administration to give thern muck more 
control — in effect complete control of the camp. 

As we get into it later on and as I show you in the minutes of the 
de facto government, we will see what — ^ position was. 

Mr. Steedman. Where wei'e the Japanese police when this was 
going on? 

Mr. James. The police at Poston No. 1 did not walk out during 
the strike; they were still on duty but they were of extremely ques- 
tionable help during the strike. Most of the time they sat in the 
jail. That is about all thej^ did. 

Mr. Steedivian. Did the}^ take sides with the strikers? 

Mr. jAMEg, That is rather hard to say. They were definitely 
sympathetic to the strikers. 

I think the Internal Security Office of Mr. Miller could describe 
to 3^ou two or thi'ee espisodes where members of the police force 
showed a very definite anti-Caucasian attitude toward him person- 
ally. I know he is in possession of that material. I hesitate to pass 
it on to you second hand. 

Mr. Steedman. There has been testimony before the committee 
that the center at Poston employs one judo instructor? 

Mr. James. There are a great many more than that. 

Mr. Steedman. More than one? 

Mr. James. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And now we have an instance where the project 
is employing a goh instructor, which is a Japanese card game. 

Do 3-0U think the people who emploj^ed instructors to teach goh 
and judo knew what they were doing? 

' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



9108 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. James. Well, it isn't my province to stand in judgment of 
them, Mr. Steedman, but I believe at one time as high as somewhere 
between 80 and 100 judo instructors were at Poston. 

Mr. MuNDT. Between 80 and 100 judo instructors? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Teaching judo to about how many Japanese? 

Mr. James. I have no way of knowing. 

Mr. MuNDT. You don't Imow how big the classes were? 

Mr. James. No. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is between 80 and 100 judo instructors were paid 
$16 a month? 

Mr. James. Yes, that is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. To teach the Japanese a form of military training? 

Mr. James. No; I want to qualify that. I say the form of judo 
that was given at Poston, that is the form of judo, resembles the form 
of judo that is given in the middle schools of Japan, the middle schools 
of Japan being those where military training is compulsory. 

Mr. MuNDT. Certainly it is not the entire training of Japanese 
soldiers but it is a part of their training? 

Mr, James. Yes, very definitely. 

Mr. Costello. Do you feel the teaching of judo at these camps was 
an ill-advised program and it was not purely for recreational purposes 
but partially from a military standpoint? 

Mr. James. I tliink it was. Another thing that moved them further 
and further toward things culturally and spiritually to Imperial 
Japan. 

Mr. Costello. It tended then to keep the Japanese closely allied 
with the Government of Japan? 

Mr. James. With the mother country, sure. 

Mr. Costello. To keep the point of view of Japanese people? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. Costello. Which tended to alienate them from an American 
attitude? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. According to that we were spending about $1,500 a 
month of the taxpayers' money of this country to train these Japanese 
in the methods of Japanese warfare. That makes leaf raking under 
the W. P. A. a virtuous expenditure by comparison. 

Mr. James. It is difficult to give the number of people that were 
employed. 

Mr. Steedman. But the project records would indicate the exact 
number? 

Mr. James. They would. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it your information that the Indian Service has 
gone to great lengths to perpetuate or to keep alive Indian culture on 
the various Indian reservations? 

Mr. James. Decidedly. I don't want to pose as an expert on Indian 
affairs, but having seen a number of their published works on a num- 
ber of the reservations — Navajo Reservation, for example, that has 
been one of the things they have been very proud of — perpetuating 
Indian culture and recording it and encouraging the Indians to keep 
up their tribal forms. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9109 

Mr. Steedman. By reason of that do you think the Indian Service 
employees who went to Poston thought: 

Well, we have another minoritj'' group here and thej- have a culture; I(.t us 
perpetuate that culture; let us hire these judo experts and goh experts. 

^Ir. James. Yes; but that is a rather hard question to answer but 
I think there was a very definite trend on the part of a few of the 
Indian Service people, both in Washington and at the project, who 
probabl}^ thought it would be a very nice thing to perpetuate some 
of the things, culturally, Japanese, such as their paintings and judo. 

Air. Steedman. Do you think the center authorities had any idea 
of what these various tilings, such as judo and goh, represented to the 
Japanese? 

Mr. James. I think they had not the slightest idea of what they 
represented. I know certainly that is true of judo. 

Air. Steedman. Air. Chairman, I have a memorandum dated 
October 6, 1942, addressed to Air. H. H. Townsend, transportation 
and supply officer, signed by Dr. Allies Carey, which I would like to 
offer in evidence and read into the record. 

Air. CosTELLO. Was this memorandum supplied to you by Air. 
Townsend? 

Air. Steedman. It was. 

Air. Costello. As a part of the record he has submitted to you? 

Air. Steedman. That is correct. 

Air. Costello. You maj" introduce it into the record at this point. 

Air. Steedman. I quote: 

This afternoon I brought Air. Nishino into your office for an interview. Mr. 
Nishiuo represents the Kabuki Drama Society which is presenting their classical 
production on the newlj^ erected Shibai stage opposite block Xo. 4. The organi- 
zation is requesting the privilege of borrowing 100 folding chairs for this occasion. 
They would like to get the chairs tomorrow afternoon, keeping them till tomorrow 
night. They will return the chairs Thursday morning. 

I am sure that this is a very worthy undertaking and that the members of the 
Kabuki Drama Society will appreciate any help that we can render in making 
this production a success. I am writing this in place of Mr. Nishino. 

And that is signed, "Dr. Aliles E. Carey by A. Al." 

Air. Costello. \^Tiat is the date of that letter? 

Air. Steedman. The letter is dated October 6, 1942. 

Air. Costello. ^'Vliat was Dr. Carey's position? 

Air. James. Dr. Care}^ was superintendent of the Poston schools. 
He was formerly principal of AIcKinley High School of Honolulu. 

Air. Steedman. Are you familiar with the Kabuki Drama Society? 

Air. James. Yes, sir; I am. 

Air. Steedman. Will you tell the committee something about it? 

Air. James. The Kabuki Drama Society plays are a series of 
ancient plays, several hundred years old, tying in with the era of 
feudal Japan. 

Alan}^ of them glorify the warrior — the Samuri. In fact all of them 
have tliat basis of glorification of men in arms — blood and thunder. 

In some cases the glorification of Jimmu Tenno, who is one of the 
ancestral gods from whom the long line of Emperors trace their 
lineage. 

He was an ancestrial god who descended to earth to establish the 
ancient dynasty from which the present member, Hirohito, traces his 
lineage. 



9110 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Do these plays have as their central theme Japan- 
ese culture? 

Mr. James. Japanese culture in the main, IVIr. Steedman, but 
there also again you might make a comparison with Shakespeare. 
They occupy, with the exception of the militaristic spirit that is 
usually found in the Kabuki plays, they are regarded by the Japanese 
as Shakespeare is to us. They are regarded as classics but that is 
because they are so interwoven with the Japanese law and much of 
their law is tied in with the warrior tradition of the Yamato race. 

Mr. Steedman. Glorifying war? 

Mr. James. That is right, glorifying war. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you understand the term Shibai? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you explain it? 

Mr. James. Shibai is largely used to mdicate a company producing 
plays in the vernacular; that is, in the Japanese language. A Shibai 
stage is a particular type of stage for tlie production of Japanese 
plays. 

"Shibai" can also mean a club, a dramatic club, and if you make 
a reference to a Shibai play, you have to further define it — is it a 
Kabuki play or is it one of the modern Japanese plays? 

Mr. Steedman. Is it your understanding that these plays are 
closely integrated with Shinto worship? 

Mr. James. I don't think so, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. You don't think it has anythmg to do with Shinto? 

Mr. James. With the organized Shinto worship; no. 

Mr. Steedman. These plays simply have a tendency to glorify the 
Japanese race? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is a worthy undertaking? 

Mr. James. Again you are asking a question dealing on project 
management. In my personal view; no. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to return to a reading 
of the memorandum that was introduced into the record this morn- 
ing, regarding the strike or riot at Poston. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Very well. 

Mr. Steedman (reading): 

11:30 a. m.: Mr. H. W. Smith, chief fiscal officer, telephones United States 
Attorney Flynn in Phoenix, inquires what court the Uchida case should be referred 
to. Mr. Flynn informs him that the superior court, Yuma County, has proper 
jurisdiction. Mr. Miller, internal security officer, telephones County Attorney 
Byrne, Yuma County, has proper jurisdiction. Mr. Miller, internal security 
officer, telephones County Attorney Byrne, Yuma, apprises him of Poston sit- 
uation, and was informed Sheriff Norman would arrive in Poston following day. 

Mr. James. I would like to point out that at that time, Noveniber 
19, 1942, Mr. Evans said they had sufficient evidence to hold Uchida. 
Mr. Steedman (reading): 

At a staff meeting, presided over by Mr. Evans, it is decided to release George 
Fujii since Mr. Miller did not have sufficient evidence to warrant holding him- 
In the case of Uchida, it is decided that sufficient evidence has been disclosed tc 
warrant holding him. 

3:30 p. m.: Mr. Evans meets with a committee of 12 evacuees from camp 
No. 2 and camp No. 3, who had been elected to act as intermediaries between 
the administration and a committee of 72, elected by the residents of Poston 1. 
It is disclosed that this committee of 72 is composed of 2 residents from each 
block. Mr. Evans tells the committee he proposed to release Mr. Fujii and to 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVI'tlES 9111 

turn Mr. Vchida over to the county of Yuma. The committee of 12 then passes 
this information to the committee of 72, and then meets with Mr. Evans to tell 
him why they do not think this would be acceptable to the people of Poston. Mr. 
Evans then ji;oes before the committee of 72 and reads a prepared statement con- 
cerning the disposition of Fujii and Uchida. Immediately afterward he ordered the 
Poston No. 1 police force to release Fujii. The reaction of individual members 
of the committee of 72 indicated they did not approve the holding of Uchida and 
that great resistance would be put up to any attempt to move him from the 
community. 

4:45 p. m.: Duncan Mills, regional administrative officer of War Relocation 
Authority, San Francisco, called at the request of Col. Karl Bendetson, regarding 
the situation at Poston. Mr. Mills was informed by Mr. Nelson of the situation 
as it existed. Mr. Nelson also told Mr. Mills that the reason Mr. Evans had not 
advised either General De"^Vitt or Colonel Bendetson was due to the fact that Mr. 
Evans had been informed b}- the two Federal Bureau of Investigation investigators 
that full details of the Poston disturbances had been sent to the Western Defense 
Command through the offices of G-2, Phoenix. 

November 20, 9 a. m. : Sheriff Norman, of Yuma County, arrived. There was 
sufficient evidence to warrant holding Uchida by the county officials but he would 
not take further action unless requested by the project. 

Mr. Steedman. Before reading the paragi^aph "9:30 a. m., Novem- 
ber 20," I would like to ask you if you know Dr. Alexander Leighton? 

Mr. James. I do. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his position at Poston? 

Mr. James. Well, Dr. Alexander Leighton was a lieutenant in the 
United States Navy — that is he has a ranking of lieutenant in the 
United States Navy. 

He was assigned to the project, apparently by the Navy Depart- 
ment, at the request of the Indian Service to act as head of the bureau 
of sociological research. 

He is an anthropologist, I believe, of national reputation and has 
been, I believe, making studies of the Japanese at Poston; and he is 
still there. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is he a doctor of medicine or science? 

Mr. James. Science — no, I will take that back. I think he also 
has an M. D. degree, too — I am sure he ha^. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Is his conmiission in the Navy a regular commission 
or is he a Reserve Officer? 

Mr. James. He wears a regular uniform in Poston. He wears his 
uniform and is on active duty. I believe he is a close friend of Rear 
Admiral Ross Mclntire. 

Mr. Steedman. Have you seen him wearmg an Army uniform? 

Mr. James. No. 

Mr. Steedman. The first time you saw him he was wearing a Navy 
uniform? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. And has always worn a Navy imiform? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Just where does he fit into the admmistrative pic- 
ture at Poston center? 

Mr. James. I am not sure but I beUeve he is probably the unofficial 
representative of Commissioner Collier of the Indian Service. 

Mr. Steedman. A liaison man between the project and Com- 
missioner Collier? 

Mr. James. That would be about as close a definition as I could give; 
and also engaged in collecting data on the Japanese. He had made 
similar studies of the Indians. 

Mr. Steedman. Is he compihng a book? 



9112 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. James. I don't know, Mr. Steedman. He is gathering data 
and presumably it goes to the Navy Department as well as the Com- 
missioner of Indian Affairs, Mr, Collier, 

Mr. Steedman, What is the attitude of the Japanese toward Dr. 
Leighton? 

Mr. James. I don't know. 

Mr, Steedman (Continuing reading from the memorandum, the 
item under November 20): 

9:30 a. m.: Dr. Alexander Leighton, in a long-distance telephone call, described 
the situation to Commissioner of Indian Affairs, John Collier, Washington, D. C. 
As his pnrsonal opinion, Dr. Leighton said he believed one of the important ele- 
ments in the Poston disturbances was that the people looked upon this as a test 
case as to whether or not thej^ were going to be permitted to settle their own 
internal affairs. He recommended that Uchida be released to the community on 
the understanding that he be tried there. Mr. Collier said he would consider the 
matter and call back later. 

10:30 a. m.: Telephone call to Mr. Head in Salt Lake City is completed and 
project director and Air. Gelvin start return trip to Poston. 

11 a, m. : Commissioner Collier calls Mr. Leighton from Washington, says 
he has talked with Secretary Ickes who has discussed Poston disturbances with 
the War Department. Commissioner Collier instructs Poston administration to 
maintain status quo until further advised. 

2 p. m.: Commissioner Collier and Mr, McKaskell, in telephonic conversations 
with Mr. Evans and Dr. Leighton, report that Secretary Ickes has spoken with 
Assistant Secretary of War McCloy, and that it is Mr, Ickes' opinion that Uchida 
be released to the community with the understanding that a formal trial be held. 
Commissioner Collier said Secretary Ickes did not make this in the form of an 
order to the Poston administration because he felt the matter should be left to the 
judgment of the acting project director. Mr. Evans pointed oUt to Mr. McKaskell 
and Mr. Collier some of the serious consequences likely to arise from turning 
Uchida back to the community, but he said he approved it providing Mi, Collier 
and Mr. McKaskell understood these possible consequences. Mr. Collier 
wanted to impress upon the Poston evacuees that if they did not keep their end 
of the bargain in regard to a formal trial it would be the last time the Department 
of the Interior would be able to intercede with the War Department in their behalf. 

Mr, Steedman, Who i,s Mr, AlcKaskell? 

Mr. James. Mr. Joseph McKaskell is Assistant Commissioner of 
Indian Affairs in Washington, D, C. 

Mr. Costelto, While you are on that, the Department of the 
Interior, tlu^ough Mr, Ickes, was appealing to the War Department on 
behalf of the release of Uchida to the Japanese? 

Mr. James. I think there were consultations between Mr. Ickes 
and the Assistant Secretary of War. 

Mr, Costello. You don't know whether Mr. Myer was consulted 
at all regarding this situation? 

Mr. James. I don't loiow. I presume he was advised of it through 
Commissioner Collier. 

\!r. Costello, But he had left Poston and was possibly up in 
Salt Lake City at the tune? 

Mr, James. That is correct; yes. 

Mr, Costello. You don't know whether anyone at the camp 
endeavored to contact him as head of the W, R. A. to determine 
what was to be done in the situation? 

Mr. James. I believe it was impossible to get in touch with Mr, 
Myer. Telephonic contact was only made witli Mr. Gelvin. They 
were on the train on the date that was mentioned in that chronology. 
That was the first time we had a telephone call to them. 

Mr, Costello. And it was for that reason they went directly to 
Mr, Colher? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9113 

!>.ir. James. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. Who is the assistant to Mr. Myer in Washington, 
D. C..' 

Mr. James. I am trying to think who was at that time. I am not 
sure at all. 

Mr. MuNDT. The name isn't so important. Was he with Mr. 
Myer? 

Mr. James. I am not sure. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman (reading the balance of the paragraph dated "No- 
vember 20, 2 p. m.): 

He- 
meaning Dr. Leighton — 

also mentioned the matter of the fence around the project and reported that the 
matter had been taken up with Secretary McCloy and as a result an order has 
been issued to the Army engineers to stop construction work pending new arrange- 
ments concerning the location of said fence. Mr. McKaskell said they would 
clear with W. R. A., Washington, regarding procedure. Both Mr. Collier and 
Mr. McKaskell endorsed all previous steps taken by the project administration 
in dealing with the Poston disturbances. 

2:30 p. m. : Mr. Evans. called a staff meeting to discuss ways and means of 
starting negotiations with the evacuees. Mr. John Meano, of camp No. 2, 
attended this meeting and was told of the conversations with W ashington. He 
said that without telling the recommendation of the Indian Office in Washington, 
he would endeavor to get the evacuees to begin negotiations with the administra- 
tion on the basis of a trial in the community. He strongly advised against any 
general aimouncement to the evacuees. This was approved by Mr. Evans and 
Mr. Meano left to begin negotiations. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Army engineers contemplate building a 
fence aroimd the center at Poston? 

Mr. James. Yes; the erection of a fence at Poston and at all other 
relocation projects. It was entirely a problem of the Army, tying in 
with the external security problems that the military police units were 
confronted with. 

At Poston, as I understand it, there has been discussions din-ing 
the month of May and right up to the time of the disturbance, as to 
just what was to be the boundaries of the Colorado River project and 
they had not been' defined. 

The Army wanted them close to the camps and the project admin- 
istration and the Bureau of Indian Aft'au-s in Washington, wanted a 
great deal more space included and there was this series of consulta- 
tions, apparently going on in Washington, as to the location of the 
fence. 

Mr. Steedman, Did the Japanese at the center object to the 
location of the fence as planned by the Army engineers? 

Mr. James. The Japanese didn't know where the fence was going 
to be. The objections came from members of the staff. 

Mr. Steedman. Membci*s of the Poston staff? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Japanese objected 
to the fence that was being built around No. 1? 

Mr. James. As the fences were being built there were a number of 
objections; yes. 

Sir. Steedman. What form did the objections take? 

Mr. James. Largely by word of mouth, committees calling on Mr. 
Head, committees protesting. I don't recall any petitions put out by 



9114 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

the Japanese not to have any fences, for example, or to move the 
boundaries or' move the location of the fence, but I do recall there 
were delegations that called on the project director in protest of the 
particular location of the fence. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Army engineers have trouble with the 
evacuees about tearing down the fence that they were building? 

Mr. James. They did. 

Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the nature of that trouble? 

Mr. James. In Poston No. 3, the fence was being erected early in 
November, and after it had been up 2 or 3 days, in certain locations 
the wire would be down and paths would be cut out into the desert 
wilderness. It was a matter of convenience with them. And in 
some cases I imagine it was an attempt on their part to show their 
disapproval of the fence and what to them meant, apparently, further 
confinement. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any particular place outside the fence 
to which the Japs might want to go, such as down to the river, or 
something of that kind? 

Mr. James. Yes; there were locations like that. 

Mr. Costello. And for that reason the fence might have been 
inconvenient for them? 

Mr. James. Yes; I would place it on two bases: Convenience, and 
secondly, disapproval of the fence because the fence represented a 
sjT^mbol to them. 

Mr. Costello. The paths cut there were because a large number of 
Japanese might have been going to the river? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. I don't think it was the work of an organized 
group. My presumption would be that it was largely the work of 
American-born youngsters. 

Air. MuNDT. Were there any gates in the fence? 

Mr. James. Very few. Now, there was one, as they were originally 
lined up there were just two entrances to the camp. Each camp 
was to be enclosed and as I recall there were just two entrances to the 
camps. 

Mr. MuNDT. It involved considerable inconvenience? 

Mr. James. These fences by no stretch of the imagination could 
be regarded as detention fences. They could be called "cattle 
fences." They were only about this high [indicating], with three or 
four strands of barb wire. I believe originaUy it was to be five strands 
but it was cut down to four, but as far as keeping an able-bodied man 
or woman or youngster in the boundary, it would be ridiculous. But 
we do have trouble with Indian cattle. There are ranches only 2 or 3 
miles away and cattle wander in and eat up the vegetable patches and 
there is a need for a fence there, but as far as this type of fence actually 
affording a measure of confinement, that is ridiculous. 

Mr. MuNDT. From the standpoint of 

Mr. James. Psychological confinement; A^es. 

Mr. MuNDT. From the standpoint of your experience of over a year 
at the relocation center, and in view of the fact of a particular time 
like this, it was necessary to confer with so many different officials in 
W^ashington, I wonder if you think it is conducive to good management 
to have at least three different agencies of the Government in Wash- 
ington dividing responsibility for the administration of the relocatioi; 
center? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9115 

Mr. James. It would certainly seem to me to be the wrong thing. 
Common, ordinary horse sense would dictate that a centralized 
administration is necessary if we want humane treatment of these 
people. Humane treatment dictates quick, strong answers and quick 
action. 

Mr. MuNDT. I might say for your information that previous wit- 
nesses, men employed at the center and on the staff at Poston, have 
given the same suggestion. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is there any reason why the Department of the 
Interior should have anything to say with reference to this center? 

Mr. James. Yes, there is; because under the terms and agreement 
signed by Secretary of the Interior Ickes and Milton S. Eisenhower, 
in February of 1942, the Poston project was set up under the terms of 
that agi'eement. This vast area of land in the potentially fertile 
Parker VaUey v»^as to be set aside as a relocation center and the land 
was to be leased from the Indians and the Indians in turn were not to 
receive any actual cash for the rental of their land, but after the war 
they are to receive, under the tenns of this agreement, the buildings 
and the appurtenances upon this land. 

iMr. CosTELLO. Before Mr. Collier could take any action A\nth the 
War Department, he would have to go through Mr. Ickes? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

To continue with this agreement: It provides, as I recall, that the 
affairs at Poston shall be administered by the Bureau of Indian 
Affairs, following the policies of the War Relocation Autl^orit3^ 

Mr. CosTELLo. Does that same situation apply to other camps not 
located on Indian reservations? 

Mr. James. No, sir; this is the only one where there is a dual 
control. 

jMr. MuNDT. There is nothing in such a lease which seems to convey 
to Commissioner Collier the authority to determine whether a Japa- 
nese should be in jail or out of jail? 

Mr. James. It wouldn't seem so to me. 

Air. AIuNDT. I would assume that he would be interested only in 
the physical equipment and the land. 

Air. James. That would seem to be the case. 

Air. AIuNDT. It is a far ciy because, assuming 3^ou want a building 
in a certain location, because the irrigation project is to be put in a 
certain place, to determine whether a man who had been incarcerated 
should be pardoned? 

Air. James. Yes. Alind you, the evidence shows, I believe the 
evidence showed to the best of my knowledge, that Uchida had been 
guilty of a felony — an assault with a deadly weapon so, automatically 
under the law, that man could not be tried in Poston. 

According to my understanding of the law of this country there 
are no courts capable of handling such a case in Poston. 

Air. CosTELLO. That was the type of offense, however, that was 
set up in the regulations as governing the camp which provided that 
offenders of that character should be turned over to the regular State 
authorities outside the camp? 

Air. James. That is correct; automatically he should have been 
turned over to the sheriff' — Sheriff Norman, and Sheriff" Norman, 
according to the chronology I have presented here, was perfectly 



9116 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

ready to take him to the Yuma County Court at Yuma if released 
by the authorities at Poston. 

Mr. CosTELLO. According to all their own rules and regulations 
■governing the camp that is the procedure that should have been had 
and Uchida should have been turned over to the county authorities 
in that locality? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is also true with respect to Indians on 
Indian reservations, is it not? That is, if they commit a crime 
against the laws of the Commonwealth they are to be tried in the 
county court? 

Mr. James. I believe it is, Congressman ; yes. The Indian Service 
law does not subordinate the law of the Commonwealth. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much it cost the Government 
to change the fence from its original location to the location that the 
Japanese desired? 

Mr. James. I do not, Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fa6t, I don't 
know that the fence was located where the Japanese wanted it. I 
rather question that. I think it was where the project administration 
wanted it. 

Mr. Steedman. But the Japanese objected to the first fence and 
it was moved? 

Mr. James. Well, whether it was the Japanese that did it, or 
persuaded them to move it, I don't know. I think Mr. Head 
originally — way back as we were just receiving our Japanese — that 
was way back in May last year and Mr. Head was having these 
discussions with the Army and the Army engineers as to the location of 
that fence. 

And I happen to Iniow that from conversations. The Japanese 
had very little to say about the location of the fence. It was a dis- 
agreement between the Indian Service officials and the Army as to 
the location of the fence. . 

Mr. Steedman. Did you at any time discuss the location of the 
fence with Miss Nell Findley? _ . 

Mr. James. No. I was present at a meeting of staff members when 
Miss Findley circulated a petition to be forwarded to Commissioner 
Collier and to Mr. Dillon Myer and to the President of the United 
States, requesting that the fence not be built. 

That petition never left Poston to my knowledge. It was signed 
and got no further than the project director's office. 

It was signed by a good portion of the personnel there. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you ever discuss with Miss Findley the 
evacuation of the Japanese from the west coast? 

Mr. James. Never personally. I have heard her in many talks. 

Mr. Steedman. What was her attitude toward the evacuation? 

Mr. James. I think she very sincerely believed — we were very 
good friends there, I think Miss Findley sincerely believed relocation 
was wrong. I remember very well in some of her talks she made 
statements such as: 

This is my country right or wrong, my country is wrong in this particular and 
I am going to try to correct this wrong. 

I may say for the record Miss Findley is a very sincere, warm- 
hearted lady. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9117 

Mr. Steedman. Whenever a question of discipline arose, did Miss 
Findley always take the side of the Japanese? 

Mr. James. That is correct, she did. She is a maiden lady, an 
Irish woman with a great big heart and she looked upon them as 
individuals instead of looking upon them as a mass. 

Obviously, gentlemen, in a situation as tough as Poston, out there 
on the desert, a lusty booming frontier town, you are going to see a 
lot of hardships but you will lose respect if you become sympathetic 
with individual cases. There are 18,000 Japanese there and if you 
start commiserating with a dozen or so, you are going to lose the 
respect of the other 18,000. 

Air. Steedman. Do you feel proper management of centers of this 
character requhes rather stern discipline at the top in order to keep 
order and discipline in the center? 

Mr. James. That is right. For simple, human decency's sake, I 
think you have to have that type of administration. Humane rules, 
yes,, but rules that really mean what they say. 

Mr. Steedman. You feel that whoever administers the project 
should be an administrator and should be forceful in giving his 
commands and see that they are carried out? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. I think the personnel at Poston have 
attempted to do that, but I think they have been greatly hampered 
by the confusion that has existed in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you feel that very often the head of the project 
was unable to carry out his own orders because they might have been 
countermanded by officials in Washington? 

Mr. James. I think they have tried to do the best job of which 
they are capable. Many of them are untrained in the ways of these 
people but after all I think they are good Americans. I think some of 
them have lost perspective and some of them have reacted in a psycho- 
pathic way after being in contact with the people. 

I think the biggest handicap has been the direction that they have 
received from the top, however. 

Mr. Steedman. From the testimony previously given by you, you 
indicate the Japanese people themselves expect stern discipline? 

Mr. James. They do. It is reflected in their own lives. The 
project director is looked upon as the father of that community and if 
he doesn't react with the sternness, the benign sternness, if you please, 
as the papasan of the family, he loses the respect of the Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. He should give orders directing their lives and the 
conduct of the entire community and, as you say, they expect him to 
do that, and if he does not he loses face? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And then all the administration loses face by reason 
of that? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. You feel also the Japanese live a perfectly happy and 
normal life under such a stern directorship? 

Mr. James. If given a chance to work out their own economic sal- 
vation so as to be free from the taxpayers' money, their pride will be 
restored. They are a very proud people. They are very competent 
to carve out their own destiny. 

Even out there on the desert I feel they would be reasonably con- 
tent and happy under wartime restrictions. They are a simi)le people 

62626 — 43— vol. 15 19 



9118 UjST-amekican propaganda activities 

when it comes to the necessities of life, and if given a chance to make 
them economically self-supporting they would be happy at Poston and 
every other relocation center where there is a chance for a large agri- 
cultural project, because most of our Japanese have their roots in the 
soil or in processing food. 

Mr. CosTELLO. We might have a 5-minute recess for the sake of the 
reporter. 

(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. The committee wUl be in order. You may proceed^ 
Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum): 

2:30 p. m.: Mr. Eva.ns called a staff meeting to discuss ways and means of 
starting negotiations with the evacuees. Mr. John Maeno of camp No. 2 attended 
this meeting and was told of the conversations with Washington. He said, that 
without telling the recommendation of the Indian Office in Washington, he 
would endeavor to get the evacuees to begin negotiations with the administration 
on the basis of a trial in the community. He strongly advised against any general 
announcement to the evacuees. This was approved by Mr. Evans and Mr. 
Maeno left to begin negotiations. 

Mr, Steedman. Who is Mr. Maeno? 

Mr. James. John Maeno is a former Japanese from Los Angeles, 
an attorney, and at that time was chairman of the community con- 
gress of Poston No. 2. 

Mr. Steedman (reading) : 

A committee was formed to keep the staff of Caucasian personnel adequately 
informed concerning the development of events. 

6 p. m.: John Maeno reported back that though there was a good deal of argu- 
ment for and against having a trial in the community, it was his opinion that 
the people would come around to this. He said that the Committee of Seventy- 
two (of which about 60 members had assembled to hear him), decided to take 
the matter back to their blocks for evening discussions and agreed to reassemble- 
at 10 a. m. tomorrow to discuss it. 

November 21, 9 a. m.: In a telephone conversation with Commissioner Collier, 
Dr. Leighton inquired if procedures had been cleared with War Relocation 
Authority, Washington. He was informed this had not been possible, due to Mr. 
Myer's absence in Salt Lake City but that the project director should proceed 
as instructed by the Commissioner and if any subsequent controversy should 
develop between War Relocation Authority and the Office of Indian Affairs, Mr. 
Collier and Mr. McKaskell would assume responsibility. 

11:30 a. m.: John Maeno reported to Mr. Evans that Poston No. 1 was holding 
a plebiscite concerning whether the people should negotiate for a trial for Uchida 
to be held in Poston. 

Sometime Saturday morning: The Parker warehouse dock crew of 100 volim- 
teer evacuee workers, assigned to unload freight cars, is turned back because of 
the tense situation in Parker. Railroad men say a switch engine is not available 
to move cars from a spur track to the unloading platform. 

5:30 p. m.: John Maeno phones Mr. Evans that conditions are now serious in 
Poston No. 2; that he fears that unit may go on a sympathy strike with No. 1; 
that he is disappointed in the attitude of the people, and that he has no response 
from his. fellow evacuees for an attitude on the proposals for a settlement, and 
that he requests another meeting with Mr. Evans. 

7:30 p. m.: James Crawford, administrator of Poston No. 2, phones Mr. 
Evans that trouble is increasing in this unit. Mr. Evans sends a personal mes- 
sage to a mass meeting in Poston No. 2 asking the people to stand pat. Mr., 
Crawford reports that most of the dissension in Poston No. 2 is confined to block 
211 and that the leader is Mr. Tachibana. John Maeno reports he cannot keep 
his appointment with Mr. Evans. 

8 p. m.: The community council of Poston No. 3 meets with Mr. Evans who> 
tells them he is hopeful of arriving at a satisfactory solution. 

8:15 p. m.: Arrival of Captain McFadden, a representative of Lt. Gen. J. L. 
DeWitt. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9119 

8:30 p. m.: Summary of events given by Mr. Evans to staff meeting. 

9:15 to 11 p. m.: Meeting between Mr. Evans, Dr. Leighton, administrators, 
and the ,3 Andrew Sugimoto, and the two other evacuees accom- 
panied by three stenographers. ^ opens discussion witii pre- 
sentation of Japanese psychology. He says the disturbances in Poston No. 1 
have resulted in a mob, that this mob is now trying to establish leaders, that 
two such leaders have been elected from every block and that they have affected 

an over-all emergency organization. » further says 'that he and his 

associates are members of a Committee of Twelve, that 9 members of this com- 
mittee represent the quads of Poston No. ) and that the other members are tem- 
porary chairman, vice chairman, and secretary. He explains that this Commit- 
tee of Twelve and the 72 elected block representatives are endeavoring to gain 
control of the mob in order to once again have a peaceful and happy community. 
He further says that if they can establish themselves as leaders by securing what 
the mob wants, that is the relief of Uchida, then they can unify this mob move- 
ment into a more formal organization which can collaborate with the adminis- 
tration in establishing law and order. 

At the request of Sugimoto, Dr. Leighton explains the administration's position 
on law and order, that the matter of the trial of Uchida is in the hands of the au- 
thorities of Yuma County, that he had telephoned Mr. Collier and it might be 
possible to try Uchida in the community of Poston, but that if this were done it 
must be clearly understood: (1) That there would be a trial according to strict 
lawful procedure, (2) that there must be improved collaboration with the admin- 
istration in project work, an end to strikes and stoppages, an end to the beatings 
and terrorism, and (3) if these latter conditions were not fulfilled the Depart- 
ment of the Interior would no longer intercede with the War Department, but that 
if they w'ere fulfilled the people of Poston would be assured of continued improve- 
ments. 

^ reply was that this was a fine plan but that he and his asso- 
ciates did not believe they could secure an acceptance from the mob. 

It was suggseted bj' Mr. Evans and Dr. Leighton that the secondary proposals 
embodied in category (3) be reduced to waiting and presented to the project admin- 
istration for further discussion. 

Mr. Steedman. Since the name of ^ j^as appeared 

several times, will you give the committee the background of 

Air. James. Very glad to. May I ask the newspaper people to 
delete his name from the records. 

■ ^ is suspected of being one of the larger-fry leaders 

who were not picked up after Pearl Harbor. He came into Poston 
from Bakorsfield. He is an alien born in Japan. His roommate in 
Poston is — ■ .^ 

Mr. CosTELLO. How long has he been in this country? 

Mr. James. ^ has been here about 3 years. 

Mr. OosTELLO. Has been here just as a visitor? 

Mr. James. That is right. ^ is 50 years old — the 

Nori food Idng of Japan. 

Mr. Steedman. You might explain that "Nori" is a specialized 
food made of seaweed. 

Mr. James. Yes. I have talked with ^ a good many 

times with an interpreter. 

Perhaps I had better give you a little bit of his fabulous record. 

He came to this countr}^ in 1941 to establish it, according to his 
testimony, an overseas market for Nori, which has been sold in the 
big department stores of Japan and the larger food stores of Japan — 
department stores like Mitsui and Mitsubishi, in Tokio. 

^ is worth about 17,000,000 yen, a wealthy man — a 

very wealthy man according to Japanese estimates of wealth. 

3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



9120 un-americajs- propaganda activities 

He maintains a personnel training school in Nagoya, one of the 
larger cities of Japan, where, he told me, he constantly trains 300 
people to work in his organization. 

He has factories in Nagoya and other cities of Japan. He has a 
monopoly on this type of seaweed. He came to this country in 1941 
to establish an overseas market here in North America. 

According to his own testimony he sent his eldest son in the same 
year to Europe to visit Germany, Russia, and Central Europe to 
similarly try to develop a Nori market. 

His son went back to Japan. 

^ and 3 work as a team at Poston. 

-,^ prior to his appearance in the strike or in the riot as 



one of the ringleaders, for a number of months had been endeavoring 
to get control of the cooperative system at Poston. 

Shall I go into that? 

Mr. Steedman. I prefer we take the cooperative angle up at a 
later time. I would like to proceed along with the strike now, 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And we will develop that testimony later. 

Mr. James. May I introduce a piece of poetry that ^ 

v^^rote? 

Mr. MuNDT. Are you still talking about the wealthy Japanese 
merchant? 

Mr. James. This is by way of background so you can picture who 
3 was or is. May I add one further thing: The testi- 
mony of the district attorney of Kern County 

Mr. Steedman. Go right ahead. 

Mr. James. In February 1942, prior to the evacuation, the 
^ acted as an interpreter for the district attorney of 



Kern County, Calif., and for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 

The F. B. I. agents who came in on several of these cases began to 

be a little suspicious of ^ interpreting. They called 

Mrs. / whom I have previously mentioned in this 

testimony, to check — ^ interpretation. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Her name is off the record? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. There were sufficient discrepancies to cause 

3 ^o be thrown out. He was one of the first to come 

into Poston. He came in as a volunteer evacuee, presumably to act 
as a Methodist minister. Fully 90 percent of his time at Poston is 
spent in other activities or activities other than preaching. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is the same man who is a merchant also a minister? 

Mr. James. No. The ^ is the minister. Living 

with him in his apartment is this old, elderly alien Japanese, 

-,^ who is incredibly wealthy, and who, by his own admissions. 



is a rugged individualist. He secured his monopoly of the Nori 
product in various ways — — 

Mr. MuNDT. Is the minister also an alien? 

Mr. James. ^ is also an alien; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you happen to know whether any effort has 

been made to exchange ^ for some American national in 

Japan? 

3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9121 

"Mr. James. I don't know. The State Department will know about 
that because they are in charge of repatriation. 
Air. MuNDT. You say you have a poem that the minister wrote? 
Mr. James. Yes; and later on I will read it. 
Mr. Steedman. (Reading again from the memorandum): 

12 midnight: Project Director Head and Mr. Gelvin arrive from War Relocation 

Authority regional conference in Salt Lake City. 

November 22, 10 a. m.: A staff meeting is called by Director Head who says he 
has a plan for the solution of the strike; that he personally examined all the facts; 
that he will not meet with any evacuee committee until he is convinced they are 
representative and that the plan he is evolving will require the full support of the 
staff and outside agencies. 

Midaflernoon. Representatives of the Committee of Seventy-two make 
frequent attempts to open negotiations with Mr. Head but all such meetings he 
holds in abeyance, while compiling data on the membership of these committees. 
Frequent consultations are held with staff members to discuss future strategy. 

8 p. m. : Military police patrols now guard the mile square boundaries of Poston 
No. 1, under orders to turn back all evacuees endeavoring to enter or leave the 
camp. 

Mr. Steedman. Had the evacuees been going in and out of the camp 
at Poston during the course of this strike? 

Mr. James. Going where, Mr. Steedman? 

Air. Steedman. Leaving the boundaries of the center from camps 
No. 1, 2, or 3? 

Mr. James. Going between camps? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. James. They \yere not permitted to go by road between the 
two camps. The military police were blocking that. It was quite 
possible and as a matter of fact they did go through on trails that they 
had beaten between the two camps. It was only a matter of 3 miles 
and they held meetings. 

Air. Steedman. There are many ways to move back and forth 
between the camps without using the regular road? 

Air. James. That is correct: yes. 

Air. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum): 

November 23, 1:4.5 p. m.: Project Attorney Haas, at Mr. Head's request, 
confers with Andrew Sugimoto and Mr. Kawashima, spokesmen for the evacuee 
committees, and arranges a meeting between Mr. Head and members of the 
Commi4;tee of Twelve. » 

3:30 p. m.: Mr. Head meets with the Committee of Twelve in the Red Cross 
Hall. The first half hour of the meeting finds the administration represented by 
Mr. Head and Mr. Haas. They are then joined by Dr. Leighton, Mr. Evans, 
Mr. Gelvin, a.nd Vernon Kennedy, employment director. 

Verbatim minutes of the entire meeting are recorded by Miss Frances Cushmen. 
These deliberations which continued until 9 p. m., involved discussions in these 
three categories: (1) Employment, (2) law and order, (3) proper organization for 
better collaboration between the evacuees and the administration. 

The Committee of Twelve states its position in the Uchida case: A demand for 
the unconditional release of the prisoner, and the dropping of all charges. 

Mr. Head states the official project position, that both the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation and the officials of Yuma County have jurisdiction which is higher 
than project law. He further states that the'United States Government is free 
at any tune to investigate pro-Axis activities; that he expects the full cooperation 
of all residents of Poston if Federal, State, and county officials exercise their 
powers under their higher jurisdiction. 

The committee restates its position, that it is checking mob action, that it can 
only accomplish this through the unconditional release of Uchida. It further 
states that speed is essential in the settlement. 

The meeting ends with Mr. Head giving assurances he will give his answer 
tomorrow and the committee likewise agrees to take under advisement the ad- 
ministration position and to report at the same time. 



D122 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. It states here that Mr. Vernon Kennedy was the 
employment director. What were his duties at Poston, if you know? 

Mr. James. Mr. Kennedy was in charge of local employment, Mr. 
Steedman — -that is the employment of people on various projects 
within the project itself. 

He also was in charge of the leave program. His title was changed 
later on to "Leave and employment officer." 

Mr. Steedman. Does he occupy that position at the present time? 

Mr. James. He does not, Mr. Steedman. He is in charge of the 
leave office at Kansas City. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you Ivnow Mr. Kennedy prior to going to 
Poston? 

Mr. James. No, I didn't. I knew him quite well at Poston. We 
were very good friends and we had an occasion, as in the case of the 
strike, to collaborate on the keeping of notes and things of that sort. 

Mr. Steedman. Is Mr. Kennedy a native of San Francisco? 

Mr. James. I believe he was born in Lassen County. He lived in 
San Francisco a long time. He went to St. Marys College, I believe. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know what position Mr. Kennedy held 
prior to going to Poston? 

Mr. James. Well, Mr. Kennedy was a labor expert, I believe, and 
at one time he worked for the Pacific Gas & Electric Co. and later he 
was an organizer for the C. I. O. I am not sure of that but I believe 
he was an organizer for the C. I. O. 

Mr. Steedman. Was he a close associate of Harry Bridges in San 
Francisco? 

Mr. James. That I wouldn't know. I never heard him mention 
that but it is quite reasonable to believe if he worked for the C. I. O. 
that he knew Mr. Harry Bridges. 

Mr. Steedman. And now he is in charge of the leave office at 
Kansas City? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. I would like, for the sake of the record, to 
say Mr. Kennedy was a very competent employee — a very competent 
employment director at Poston. His records were in very good shape. 

Mr. Steedman (going on with the memorandum): 

November 24, 9 a. m.: Project attorney Haas is informed in telephone contact 
with Andrew Sugimoto that he is acceptable as an intermediary between Mr. 
Head and the evacuee committees. 

9:30 a. m.: Mr. Haas meets with Sugimoto, Kawashimi, and Omori. Sugimoto, 
as spokesman, says he has assurances that the Committee of Twelve will accept 
Mr. Head's proposals and that the Committee of i^eventy-two will meet at 10 a. m. 

Sugimoto presents in behalf of the Committee of Twelve, and indicates complete 
support from the Committee of Seventy-two, the following demands: (1) That 
Uchida be released in the custody of the Committee of Seventy-two and tried in 
Poston, and that this release be in written form; (2) that the Committee of 
Seventy-two will sign an agreement to produce Uchida when asked for; (3) that 
the procedure for such trial would be worked out by Director Head. 

Gom Masuda was present at this conference and indicated that he had already 
agreed to act as counsel for Uchida. 

Mr. Haas again reiterated any final agreement on the trial and disposition of 
Uchida at Poston would not affect possible action by the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation or Yuma County. 

10 a. m.: Staff meeting is held with the Army representatives present. Mi*. 
Head explains the status of the strike and brings the division chiefs up to date. 
With Major Dykes and Lieutenant Young he is able to present the position of the 
Army. 

3 p. m.: Sugimoto comes to the administration building for a reply from Mr. 
Haas and Mr. Head. He is informed that Mr. Head will see the committee at 
3:30. The meeting time is changed to 4 p. m. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9123 

4 p. m. through to 8:30 p. ni.: Meeting with the Committee of Twelve. Present 
in behalf of the administration: Director Head, Dr. Leighton, and Messrs. Haas, 
Evans, Gelvin, Powell, and later Kennedy. For the evacuees: The Committee of 
Twelve, and three Niseis, Henry Ogadawa. Frank Tanaka, and Smoot Katow. 
For Uchida. Tom Masuda and Kay Tamura, attorneys. Verbatim minutes of 
the proceedings are taken by Miss Cushman. A basic formula for a settlement is 
agreed upon: 

(1) Uchida is to be released to the custody of his two attorneys, Masuda and 
Tamura, to stand trial in Poston under procedures prescribed by Mr. Head. 

(2) The evacuees are to accept a reemployment program, drawn up by Mr. 
Kemieday with the approval of Mr. Head. Air. Haas explains that all War Re- 
location Authority rules are to be followed in all respects. 

(3) All evacuees are to be required to sign affidavits. guaranteeing law and 
order. 

(4) A city planning board is to be elected by the people of Poston to collaborate 
with them and to assist the administration in the functioning of the administra- 
tive, legislative, and economic life of the community. 

Uchida is released upon a signed order by Mr. Head. 

Midnight: Picket lines are withdrawn and the people of Poston No. 1 go home. 

November 25, 8:30 a. m. : Some workers report for duties and the reemploy- 
ment program commences. Projects which have been overstaffed prepare to 
eliminate personnel. 

10 a. m.: The military police cordon is withdrawn from the boundaries of 
Poston No. 1. 

10 a. m. : Commissioner Collier is informed by telephone that the strike is over 
and that work projects and reemployment will get under way tomorrow. 

Mr. Steedman. That is an account of the strike at Poston as kept 
by you? 

Mr. James. That is correct. I would hke to add one thing to it. 
I just happened to notice a sentence on the gist of the Army position 
as presented at 10 a. m. on November 24. 

At that meeting Major Dykes and Lieutenant Young and Captain 
AIcFadden explained to Mr. Head that the Army would, and this 
was in answer to a hypothetical question put to them by Mr. Head, 
that the Army would enter Poston only in case of riots or in the case 
of a fire that was out of control 

That position was stated at 10 o'clock on the morning of the 24th. 

Mr. Steedman. And that position was taken on the basis of a 
memorandimi agreement between the Army and the W. R. A.? 

Mr. eTAMEs. That is correct; yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. "Wlio was Alajor Dykes? 

Mr. James. Major Dykes is attached to the southern security zone 
of the military police. 

Mr. Costello. He was not regularly stationed at the post adjacent 
to Poston? 

Mr. James. No; Lieutenant Young in the absence of Captain 
Dougherty, who the day before had been assigned to The Adjutant 
General's school in Washington, D. C. Captain Doughert}'' had left 
Poston and Yoimg was in charge. 

Mr. Costello. And Major Djdves came there because of the 
trouble? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. During the course of the riot, did you see a Japanese 
flag displayed anywhere inside the center at Poston? 

Mr. James. I did. 

Mr. Steedman. Where was it displayed? 

Mr. James. It was displayed on the front of the. police station for a 
period of 15 minutes. Mr. Evans went up to Mr. Andrew Sugimoto, 
I believe one of the strike leaders, and apparently suggested to Mr. 
Sugimoto that it be taken down and it was taken do^v'n. 



9124 UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Was that flag made of cloth? 

Mr. James. It was made of cloth. It was about this size [indi- 
cating], I should say 44 inches long and in the center was a rising sun 
with a white field. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there any question in your mind about it having 
been the Japanese flag? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever, 

Mr. Steedman. You have seen the Japanese flag before? 

Mr. James. I have. It is not to be confused with the block banners 
which were displayed almost continuously during the strike. Tl)ey 
were similarly made. They were on a white field and the numerals, 
very often, in red such as block 30, and m the shape of a rising sun, 
but neverthelss it was not a rising sun because they did not have it 
solidly red. But in the case of the flag that was put up on the front of 
the jail, that was the rising sun flag. It was only up 15 minutes. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the block banners designed to resemble the 
Japanese flag? 

Mr. James. Some of them very definitely, whether by chance or 
by design I leave to you. 

Mr. Costello. Did the Japanese flag fly at any other place in the 
camp? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. I should like to s'ay this for 
the record. The American flag was flown continuously from the big 
flagpole by the administration building and it was taken down and 
put up each night and morning by an alien by the name of Teshima, 
whose two sons are in the American Army. 

Mr. Costello. Had he done that prior to the time of the strike? 

Mr. James. Yes; and that was the one place in the camp where 
the American flag was flying all the time. 

Mr. Costello. Under normal conditions is the American flag flown 
at other places about the camp? 

Mr. James. No, sir; just at the administration building. That is 
the only place where it is flown. 

Mr. Costello. Did j^^ou witness any threats by the Japanese to 
take down the American flag at the administration building? 

Mr. James. To my knowledge there were no such threats made. 

Mr. Costello. You have no knowledge of any incident of that 
kind? 

Mr. James. I have no knowledge and I was there all the time and 
if there was such an incident I would know about it. 

Mr. Costello. We had testimony indicatmg that some Japanese 
Boy Scouts stood around the flag — no, that was at Manzanar. 

Mr. James. There was no incident regarding the American flag at 
Boston. 

Mr. Mundt. Dm'ing the strike did the Japanese occupy the gasoline 
pumps at Boston? 

Mr. James. I believe they did. The gasoline pumps at that time 
were located a full half-mile away from the administration building; 
and I believe they did. 

Mr. Mundt. Did they also occupy some of the warehouses? 

Afr. James.* Not to my knowledge. The transcript, Congressman, 
shows that a committee called earlier during the strike, on Mr. Evans, 
to set up procedures for getting food ; but as to actually occupying the 
warehouses, to the best of my knowledge they did not occupy them. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9125 

Mr. MuNDT. They worked out an agreement with the administra- 
tion in some way to get food each day? 

jMr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. CosTELLO. No attempt was made to steal food or any of the 
property of the United States during that time? 

Mr. James. None durmg that time. 

Mr. CosTELLo. As far as you know, there was no destruction of 
property? 

Mr. James. There was no destruction of property during the 
period of the strike. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was there any suggestion on the part of the adminis- 
tration that if they didn't quit striking they would have to stop eating? 

Mr. James. None to my knowledge. 

Mr. MuNdt. They didn't use that persuasive device? 

Mr. James. I am sure I would have known it if there had been 
that type of persuasive tactics used. 

Mr."^MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. James. I would like to say for the purpose of the record, 
however, that there were several occasions, notably those involving 

■ ^ and — — ,^ American-born Japanese women, 

who came to us for protection. 

They lived within the camp and we were unable to provide protec- 
tion for them. 

In the case of ^ I believe a request was made to the 

chief of police at Poston No. 1 to place a guard in front of her house. 
Wliether that was done, I don't know. 

I do know neither ■ ^ or ^ received any 

bodily harm during the period of trouble. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese seize the automotive equipment 
of the center during the course of the strike? 

Mr. James. They did. On the first 2 or 3 days there was equip- 
ment that was loose inside of the camp. From the first' day of the 
trouble they maintained control over it for several days before we 
were able to get it back. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think that the fact Mr. Townsend had 
the responsibility of all this automotive equipment, which was, after 
all, Government property, caused him to become concerned over the 
fact that the Japanese had taken control of that property and refused 
to return it to his control? 

Mr. James. I think Mr. Townsend very definitely was under tre- 
mendous strain and responsibility in the care of that equipment. 

I do think, collaterally, that there are other circumstances that 
created the rather unusual mood he was in. I thinlv worry over his 
wife, who had been an invalid, had something to do with it. 

Mr. Steedman. And was he concerned about her safety? 

Mr. James. Very definitely, and her physical condition, too. 

Mr. Steedman. Was any concern demonstrated by other Caucasian 
people who were living inside the center? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. The only people who actually 
left the project were Mr. and Mrs. Towmsend and Mr. Townsend's 
assistant, Mr. Barrett with Mrs. Barrett. 

3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



9126 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

I don't know the reason why Mr. and IMrs. Barrett left during the 
strike. 

Air. CosTELLO. Did Mr. Barrett return? 

Mr. James. He returned sul^sequently and is now employed at 
Poston. I believe he is chief of transportation under Mr. Haverland, 
who is chief of transportation and supply. 

lV[r. CosTELLo. Is the equipment of the Government normally 
stored in garages or is it left in any particular place? 

Nir. James. Originally the equipment was stored outside in the 
central warehouse area, which is approximately in the middle of the 
camp. During the period of the strike a motor pool — just prior, 
incidentally, to the disturbances — a motor pool had been set up across 
the road immediately adjacent to the military police camp, and 
within three or four hundred yards of the military police camp. 

IVir. CosTELLO. Normally, then, all the motor equipment should 
have been placed in that pool overnight? 

Mr. James. That is correct; yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But at the time of the strike much of that equip- 
ment was not actually in the motor pool; it was scattered around the 
camp in difl'erent locations? 

IV. r. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese defied Mr. Townscnd to obtain 
possession of that equipment, didn't they? 

Mr. James. I wasn't present when that happened. I know Mr. 
Townsend's story on that, however, and I am not in position to give 
you any opinion as to the validity of the story. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know Dr. John Powell? 

Mr. James. I do, quite well. 

Mr. Steedman. What was his position at Poston? 

Mr. James. Dr. Powell, during the time of the strike, was director 
of recreation and adult education. 

Mr. Steedman. What is his present position? 

Mr. James. I believe he has succeeded Miss Nell Findley as chief 
of community services since, approximately, May 24. 

Mr. Steedman. And Dr. Powell is concerned with community 
welfare at Poston center? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. What is Dr. Powell's background as a social 
worker? 

Mr. James. Dr. Powell, I believe, holds a Ph. D. from one — from 
a northern California university. I believe he comes from San 
Francisco. I understand that prior to joining W. K,. A. he had 
engaged in social service work. 

Mr. Steedman. Was his attitude during his entire connection with 
the Poston center one of sympathetic understanding toward the 
Japanese? 

Mr. James. Yes, I would say so — I would say that of all social 
workers. 

Mr. Steedman. And has he always taken the side of the Japanese 
in their discussions with the project administration? 

Mr. James. Yes, I would say he would — ^that he would be inclined 
to look upon the broad values of the Japanese — social values of the 
Japanese. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9127 

Mr. Steedman. But by no stretch of the imagination could Dr. 
Powell be called anti-Japanese, could he? 

Mr. James. Definitely not. 

Mr. Steedman. I hand you a memorandum entitled, "Attitudes of 
a Project Official by John Powell, Director of Recreation," and dated, 
"November 21, 1942," and ask j^ou if you have seen this memorandum 
before? [Handing document to the witness.] 

Mr. James. I have. I included it in my official report to Mr. Dillon 
Myer, Director of the War Relocation Authority at Washington, 

Mr. Steedman. Did you see the original of this memorandum? 

Mr. James. I did. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it signed by Dr. Powell? 

Mr. James. It was. Copies of it were also distributed to other 
project officials. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to place this memorandum 
in evidence and read it into the record at this point, it having been 
identified by the witness. 

Mr. CosTELLO. In view of the identification which has been made 
it will be so ordered. 

Mr. Steedman. I am quoting: 

As the project administration moves toward o settlement of the present dispute 
with the residents, there are a few factors of which I have been especially conscious 
which seem to me vital in looking for a long-term solution of the situation out of 
which this crisis arose. 

1. There is an obvious, powerful, and continued state of terror among loyal 
Nisei who have been among the friends and coworkers of the administration. 

There have been many threats of violence to those who are openly loyal to the 
United States and to this administration. 

The present picket lines are being maintained by personal check-up, search of 
homes, and threats to persons. 

Several of the most active, intelligent, and unquestionable young people, includ- 
ing one Issei returned from internment and leading programs of Americanization, 
have announced with genuine despair their intention of leaving Poston at any 
price. 

None of these phenoma are explained by the administration's confident descrip- 
tion of the responsible and trustworthy group through whom negotiations are now 
being carried on. 

2. The negotiating group is described as "representative." The bivouac 
around the jail is not genuinely so. Its flags are described as having the red circle 
on the white ground. Its music is Japanese, as is its language. 

True, many of the watchers are Nisei. They are there under compulsion, as 
many of them have frankly said: They do not dare not to be there, and are checked 
on almost hourly. The Nisei are delegated to that duty. 

Similarly, it is possible that the familiar members of the negotiating body were 
ordered to join it, and dared not refuse. Their presence is not a guarantee of the 
good faith of those who stand behind them.. 

There have been repeated statements that the real background group is openly 
pro-Japan; but that the American group does not feel strong enough, in their 
position within the whole family ribbed structure of this people, to openly resist 
them. They look to the Administration to do that. 

3. The whole technique of these incidents is too familiar to require analogies. 
The first move is to create hatred against some people within the group, as 
friendly to the Government. The next is to terrorize by a few beatings and many 
threats. The beatings get worse, but the perpetrators are protected by the 
people's loyalty and fear, and by the fact the victims were unpopular. 

When a suspect is caught, after particularly brutal assaults, (a) he is made the 
occasion for a hero festival, around which is built up a glittering and specious 
structure of demands for "the people's rights." If the legal right is granted, the 
demands are advanced beyond right, to political gains. The "people" are kept 
in line behind these demands. 



9128 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Finally, the demanding group offers to "keep the peace," guarantees to prevent 
any renewal of violence. By this time, this is not a genuine off«r; it is a threat. 
"No more violence if you * * *" or "until you. * * *" 

4. Within the cultural and population picture of Poston are an unusually 
complex set of factors. They include the Issei, who kept the laws of the land 
pretty well while they were adding hundreds of millions of dollars of wealth to 
that land; who were dispossessed and concentrated in alien camps, where self- 
government was promised; and were then explicitly excluded from any overt 
legal share in that government. There are also the Nisei, who were in full cen- 
trifugal flight from the old folks, until they too were dispossessed from schools 
and jobs and thrown into the arms of the Issei again. There are the Kibei, 
friends of neither and divided among themselves; young people without a country. 

Politically, there are four groups here: 

(a) Those openly and enthusiastically American, consciously and emotionally 
so. 

(b) Those who were born and raised here and take America for granted, like us.- 

(c) Those who, without being favorable to Axis fascism, deeply resent their 
treatment under relocation, and are antagonistic to the Government and this 
administration. 

(d) Those who are heartily in favor of Axis policies and aims, and seek to 
further them. 

The (a) and (b) groups are discouraged and frightened; they feel their cause is 
losing, and themselves under threat. The (c) group easily joins with (d) in 
action, though without the same ultimate ends. 

In relation to "informers," (a) and (6) dislike them, and regard them as traitors 
to the group. Only (d) has reason to fear them, actually; but (c) also suffers from 
their activity, or might so suffer, (c) and (d), therefore, would plan and carry out 
attacks; (a) and (b) would be in sympathy sufficiently not to interfere; and would 
not inform, both out of sympathy and for fear of being in turn beaten as informers. 

5. Many honest and earnest citizens of Poston believe Uchida innocent. Even 
if he were guilty, however, most of them would want him released: "Punishing 
informers is our own internal affairs." 

Not less than eight people were active in the assaults; hundreds were sym- 
pathetic and the rest dare not tell. But if the community cannot handle its law- 
breakers and terrorists, it cannot govern itself in any sense which this administra- 
tion can accept. 

Uchida is an incident; perhaps an accident. The basic fact is that slander and 
terror and violence have reached ends that are pleasing to the enemy, and para- 
lyzing to the project. 

A genuine desire to accomplish as much self-government as the administered 
situation can permit should be furthered. But there are elements in this situation 
that demand extra and unusual safeguards before the administration can give the 
power over law and order to a self-announced ruling body. 

The "informers" have been accused without evidence and without hearing or 
defense, in a cowardly and unfair way; and then have been brutally beaten, and 
their fate used to terrorize others. 

The town cannot ask unusual consideration in terms of rights when its hands 
are not clean. The administration should, I think, demand and receive guaranties 
that the Axis and terrorist elements will be eliminated; and these guaranties 
should he accompanied by sanctions under which summary milita'-y of police 
action may be taken, without protest, if evidence of terror of subversion recurs. 
The Am'^rican young people must be given the chance to develop themselves and 
their programs without fear or false face. All acts of town government must 
be carried on in full view of the peopb and the administration. The "informers" 
must be given a hearing on the evidence, and apologies rendered to those unjustly 
persecuted and slandered. 

I wanted to read that memorandum into the record for the purpose 
of providing a picture of what the situation was at Poston, written 
by a party or an administration official who is pro-Japanese. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Who wrote the memorandum? 

Mr. Steedman. Dr. John Powell. 

In connection with the settlement of the strike and after Uchida 
was released, was he removed from Poston to trial by the county 
authorities in Yuma? 

Mr. James. Not by the county authorities; no. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9129 

Mr. Steedman. By what authorities was he removed? 

Mr. James. Somewhere hite in December, when I was in San 
Francisco, he was summoned by the Federal Bureau of Investigation 
and taken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation to Yuma to be 
tried or to be given a hearing on the old extortion note charge. That 
was the extortion note which was supposed to have been written to 
Lyle Kurisaki. The hearing in Yuma was never consummated. He 
was taken to Yuma, so I have been told, in custody of the project 
attorney, Mr. Haas, and a Japanese attorney by the name of Mr. 
Tom Masuda. They appeared in Yuma but the F. B. I. agent did 
not appear for the hearing and Uchida was subsequently brought 
back to Boston. 

He has remained at Boston and to the best of my knowledge there 
has never been a trial of Mr. Isuma Uchida in Boston. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You say the F. B. I. agent did not appear for the 
trial? 

Mr. James. The F. B. I. agent did not appear for the trial and 
there was no trial^no hearing. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Didn't anybody from the F. B. I. office appear at 
the proceeding? 

Mr. James. None appeared. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Did you hear of any explanation in regard to that? 

Mr. James. No. ^ They went there and immediately came back. 

I want to empha'size that point on the basis of the extortion note 
and not in the case of these beatings — implication in the beatings. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether there was any protest on 
the part of the Japanese in the camp to his being removed at that 
time to Yuma for trial? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever. 

Mr. CosTELLO. He went out freely without interference? 

Mr. James. I was not there and I am again retelling second-hand 
information. 

On my return I checked that very closely and there was no dis- 
turbance whatsoever. 

Mr. CosTELLO. At the time he was released from the jail to the 
Japanese people, was there any trial held at that time for his assail- 
ing the other two victims? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever. There has never been a trial of 
him to my knowledge under the terms of the final settlement of the 
strike. There has never been a formal trial in Boston. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It was a part of the settlement terms that there 
should be a trial by the Japanese of Uchida?' 

Mr. James. That is quite right. 

*Mr. CosTELLO. But no trial was actually held? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. Steedman. "Where is Uchida now? 

Mr. James. He is a member of Boston No. 1 Fire Department. 

Mr. Steedman. Was any disciplinary action taken against any of 
the people who participated in the riot or strike at the Boston center? 

Air. James. Not by the project itself. I have here a Hst of the 
Committee of Seventy-two and of this hst Juro Omori 

Mr. Costello. And his name is already in the record? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; who. was returned from the Bismarck intern- 
ment camp on August 10, 1942 was picked up by the Federal Bureau 



9130 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

of Investigation representatives from Phoenix; and he now reposes in 
the Santa Fe, N. Mex., concentration camp. He had been returned to 
us from Bismarck and he went back to Santa Fe. 

On this hst of the Committee of Seventy-two there are a number of 
former internees who were returned to us from Bismarck or from 
Santa Fe. 

I am turning the hst over to Mr. Steedman, 

Mr. CosTELLO. The group that was released from internment 
camps were active as leaders of the Japanese at the Poston center? 

Mr. James. That is correct; and occasionally you will see in the 
list of names nephews of men who were returned. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Indicating their immediate relatives were also 
quite active in the Japanese leadership? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, will you accept for the record the 
personal data of the Committee of Seventy-two who were active 
during the recent disturbances at Poston? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is that a list which you prepared? 
. Mr. James. This is a list which I prepared, yes. I would ask that 
the names be kept confidential since many of them are being investi- 
gated. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The list will be made a part of the record and it 
will be noted here at the head of the list of names, it is confidential 
•and is not to be released. 

(The list of names referred to was marked "James Exhibit No. 1." 
and made a part of the record.) 

Mr. Eberharter. Where did you get the data to compile this list? 

Mr. James. I got that list through my own organization down 
there. It is an accurate list. 

Mr. Eberharter. It is a result of your own studies and own 
investigation? 

Air. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Eberharter. And whatever information you could gather 
yourself and through your organization? 

Mr. James. That is correct; yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. Was the majority of the membership of the 
Committee of Seventy-two composed of former internees? 

Mr. James. Mr. Steedman, I haven't counted the list. I meant 
to do it this noon; but all of those who Were internees are designated 
here. We can count them now. It wouldn't take more than a 
minute if you would like for me to, but they are all designated, those 
who were returned from internment camps. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Is it shown which ones are Kibeis and which are 
not? 

Mr. James. They are not identified as Kibeis. 

Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, in going over the list, I note 
the greater portion of the m-embers of the Committee of Seventy-two 
are the elderly or Issoi Japanese? 

Mr. James. I would make tliis statement: That the majority of 
men on that Committee of Seventy-two were either Issei or ahens or 
internees from the Bismarck camp or the Santa Fe, N. Mex., camp, 
X)r Kibeis. 

There are very few Nisei on that de facto strike group. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9131 

Mr. Steedman. In summing up the strike at Poston, would you 
say that the Japanese won the battle? 

Mr. James. I would put it this way, if you want an opinion, and 
you can take it for what it is worth: That since the camp opened up, 
beginning with the return of these internees, the various investigative 
agencies were conscious that there was a definite attempt being made 
to destroy the Americanism of the American-born Japanese. 

It was being done by men who had slipped tlirough the net of the 
F. B. I. It was done by groups who had veered away from American- 
ism and assumed an antiwhite attitude and that these various factors 
crystallized was a result of the Uchida incident. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And I presume the internees who returned were 
also leaders in those two factions? 

Mr. James. They were. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Do you feel that there was a strong undercurrent 
or movement in the camp to try to alienate the Japanese residents 
from Americanism? 

Mr. James. That is right; yes. And I think as a result of the strike 
they were able to throw up and amalgamate their positions with these 
men who, at the very least, were with very questionable background 
as to their loyalty. 

Mr. Costello. By their success in obtaining their demands at the 
time of the strike they assumed their position of leadership and were 
able to maintain it in the center? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Costello. And as a further result they are able to mipose 
their doctrine and thinking on the Japanese, either willing or through 
fear? 

Mr. Steedman. Would you say the Japanese won all their demands 
in comiection with the strike? 

Mr. James. If Uchida was never tried I most certainly would say 
that they won a very definite victory there. That was the immediate 
cause of the strike and I think, secondly, they were able to greatly in- 
crease their part in the administration of the project. 

Mr. Steedman. I was just com.ing to that. As a result of the strike, 
did this alien group who were partly formerly internees, finally emerge 
as leaders in the Japanese community? 

INfr. James. They did. 

Mr. Steedman. And I am referring to this group of 72. 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And did they set up a city-planning board? 

Mr. James. They did. 

Air. Steedman. I hand you three mimeographed pages entitled, 
"City Planning Board Meeting," dated, "Thursday 11 o'clock a. m., 
November 26, 1942," and ask you if you have seen this before [handing 
document to the witness]? 

Mr. James. This is material which was prepared by the de facto 
government of Poston. It is the official transactions covering the 
period November 26 to November 28, and mimeographed by them. 

Mr. Steedman. This outlines tiie community government that came 
into being immediately after the strike or riot? 

Mr. James. That is correct; and continued for a period of approxi- 
mately 2 months and it still continues to some extent today. 



9132 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to take up the time of 
the committee by reading this entire document into the record, but I 
would Uke to submit it in evidence for incorporation in the record. 
And at this point I would like to ask Mr. James some questions about 
this particular document. 

Mr. CosTELLo. The document does set forth, you believe, accurate 
statements of fact? 

Mr. James. It is signed by their secretary. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And do they put out similar documents from time 
to time with reference to their meetings, even up to the present time? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; I believe they do. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, the reporter is directed to copy 
this document into the record. 

(The document referred to is in words and figures as follows:) 

City Planning Board Meeting, Thursday 11 A. M., November 26, 1942 

Each member of the city planning board presented bis credentials, which was a 
signed affidavit by the residents of his respective block, giving him their assurance 
of full support and confidence in his representation. 

The first meeting of the city planning board was called to order by Mr. Sugi- 
moto (block 3), vice chairman in the absence of Mr. Omori, chairman of the 

emergency committee. Mr. Sugimoto, Mr. Takanashi, and * were 

nominated for chairman of this meeting. Mr. Sugimoto was elected. 

Mr. Sugimoto opened the meeting by calling for an election for a chairman and 
vice chairman of an executive city planning board upon whose shoulders would 
fall the real work of planning a true self-government body in Poston, taking into 
consideration all elements which were instrumental in the spontaneous incident ' 
just ended. 

3 was elected chairman. 

Mr. Sugimoto was elected vice chairman. 

Mr. Matsubara was appointed as Japanese secretar3^ 

Mr. Amano was appointed English secretary. 

It was decided to have 12 members, 6 Issei and 6 Nisei, on this central com- 
mittee. 

The meeting was divided into two groups, Issei and Nisei, to elect their respec- 
tive members to the board. 

At the Nisei meeting the following people were nominated: Dr. Ishimaru, 
James Yahiro, Hidemi Ogawa, Masaru Kawashima, Frankljai Sugiyama, Seiichi 
Nomura, Harvey Suzuki, George Fujii, Teruo Kasuga, Smoot Katow, Frank 
Tanaka. From these nominees, the following six were elected: Messrs. Kawa- 
shima, Ogawa, Ishimaru, Nomura, Yahiro, and Katow. 

The Issei members elected were: Messrs. Matsumoto, Takahas, Mitani, Oka- 
moto, Nakamura, and Niiseki. 

Executive Committee Meeting, Thursday, 2 p. m., November 26, 1942 

The various elements causing the incident and how to prevent future incidents 
were discussed in a round-table open forum. The meeting was adjourned with 
the plan to bring back various plans to be discussed the following morning. 

Executive Committee Meeting, Friday, 10 a, m., November 27, 1942 

Discussions of various plans submitted by Messrs. Mitani, Matsumoto, Sugi- 
moto, and Yahiro were held. The diff'erences in plans were very slight, and Mr. 
Sugimoto's plan was with slight adjustments adopted. This plan calls for no 
change in the heretofore covmcil set-up but provides for the creation of three new 
boarQs, namely, (1) a central executive board, (2) a court of honor, (3) a labor 
relations board. 

The central executive committee was chosen from the executive council and will 
have final decisive powers pertaining to the internal order and welfare of thia 
community. This board shall at all times work directly with the project director. 

> Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERIC.\N PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9133 

All members of this central executive committee must be qualified by the honor 
court and they may be recalled by a two-thirds majority vote of their respective 
councils. The members comprising this committee at present are Issei: 

— ■ 3 (3)^ \Ij._ Okamoto (30), Mr. Nakamura (17), Mr. Niiseki (60); 

Nisei: Mr. Susimoto (3), Mr. Yahiro (37), Mr. Ogawa (38). Mr. Katow (12). 

The duty of the Labor Relation Hoard Nvill be to plan on the abilHy of all appli- 
cants for key positions. It will work hand in hand with the employment oflice. 

The court of honor will have no connection with executive body council or other 
boards, but will be the peoi)le's honor court separate from any political or labor 
affiliations. 

Further discussions brought about the decision to return to work all former 
employees to their former positions until replaced by permanent workers. All 
permanent workers must be qualified by the court of honor and the Labor Relation 
Board. All positions are open to any person upon application and all former em- 
ployees must reapply for their previous work. Upon qualification by the above 
two boards, their position will be permanent. 

Tlie meeting was adjourned with the understanding that a general meeting of 
the civic planning board would be held to further discuss and then approve the 
plan presented by Mr. Sugimoto, at 10 a. m., Saturday, November 28, 1942. 

City- Planning Bo.\rd Meeting, Saturday, 10 a. m., November 23, 1942 

After roll call a report of the work of the executive council was given by Mr. 
Nagai. The following points were discussed: 

1. The names of the central executive committee were read. 

2. The council would exist and function as heretofore, however their actions 
must be passed on by the central executive committee, and the project director. 

3. A detached discussion of the new plan was held to clarify all points in their 
relations to the three proposals sul^mitted to the administration by the emergency 
committee. These three proposals are — 

(1) Establish a public relation committee to mediate with and settle all 

problems affecting personal reputations and damages not within the 
jurisdiction of the court. 

(2) The Postoii residents to be given the right to nominate, select, or appoint 

all key evacuee administrative personnels and other important positions. 

(3) The present emergency committee shall establish within the framework 

of the Wsiv Relocation Authority a city planning board which sVall 
recommend the creation of necessary administrative, legislative, 
consumer, and productive organizations to the project director, subject 
to approval of majority of the residents of Poston. 
Mr. Sugimoto gave a brief report on the conference held with the project 
director the previous evening. 

1. That the project director approved these proposals and would support them 
100 percent. 

2. The block managers will be elected b}- the residents of their respective 
blocks. The only requirements be that they be able to speak, read, and write 
English. 

Mr. Head then gave a brief address stressing the following points: 

1. Poston is a part of the State of Arizona and of the L'nited States. Therefore 
the Federal Bureau of Investigation has jurisdiction here as elsewhere in the 
United States. Mr. Head did not call in the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 

2. This body will be held responsible for the peace and welfare of this com- 
mittee. If there are undesirables here they will be transferred. Mr. Head does 
not believe there are any informers in here at present. He knows nothing of the 
people's past, but the administration here has no informers working for them, i or 
will they as long as he is project director. There should be no further beating, 
threats, or intimidations. 

3. The harm done to the imtil-now-favorable reputation of this communitj', 
will take a year to regain. 

4. That peo|jle be urged to report back to work immediately. 

5. That there is a need for more unity in this camp between the people and the 
administration. They should be as one, not two separate bodies. 

Mr. Nagain responded stressing the importance of full confidence and trust in 
each other. 



» Names stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costellc. 
62626 — 13— vol. 15 20 



9134 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIiEiS 



City Planning Board Meeting, Saturday, 2 P. M., November 28, 1942 

After much discussion and alteration the committee approved the three new 
boards. The corrections added, the boards duties and personnels are: 

1. The central executive committee was approved and passed untouched. The 
central executive committee was elected by the executive council of the city 

planning board. It is composed of 8 members: 4 Issei ■■ * (2), Mr. 

O'.vamoto (30), Mr. Nakamura (17), Mr. Niiseki (60); and 4 Nisei — Mr. Sugim.oto 
(3), Mr. Yahiro (37), Mr. Ogawa (38), and Mr. Katow (12). This board shall at 
all times work directly with the project director and shall have final decisive 
powers in all matters pertaining to the internal order and welfare of this com- 
mnnitv. 

2. The Labor Relation Board was set up with 8 members: 4 Issei — Mr. Kado- 

waki (27), ^ Mr. Matsomoto (35), and Mr. Nakachi (19); and 

4 Nisei— Mr. Ono (60), Mr. Yana (5), Mr. Fukuvama (2), and Mr. Nakai (27). 
The duty of this board shall be to pass on the ability of all applicants for important 
positions. It will work hand in hand with the employment office. 

The forming of the court of honor was left to nine members, one from each 
quad. Thoss members and the quad represented being as follows: Dr. Ishimaru, 

quad 1; Mr. Tazawa, quad 2; ,^ quad 3; Mr. Ishikawa, quad 4; Mr. 

Na's-amura, qi'ad 5; Mr. Takahas, quad 6; Mr. Hahiro, quad 7; Mr. Kavyabe, 
quad 8; Mr. Masukane, quad 9; the works of this committee will be recorded 
under the reports of the personal relation board selecting committee. 

ORGANIZATION CHART 









-r>T>/^TT7'/-irn r^T'DTT'ri'nrM? 




































ADMINISTRATION 






. 














CENTRAL EXECUTIVE BOARD 
AND IMEMBERS 




COMIMUNITY 
COUNCIL 


ISSEI 
COUNCIL 



HONOR 
COURT 



LABOR RELATION BOARD 

8 MEMBERS 



RESIDENTS 



Submitted by 
HiKOSHi Amano 



Hiroshi Amano — Eng. Sec. 
City Planning Board. 



Andrew Sugim oto 

Andrew Sugimoto 
Vice-Chairman 

City Planning Board. 



Mr. Steedman. 
the strike, 



I notice on the planning board that emerged after 

^ was elected chairman. Is this the same 

Japanese named -^ ^ who addressed the strikers and offered 

each Japanese who would remain loyal ten thousand yen? 

Mr. James. Loyal to Japan, ten thousand yen; yes, sir, it is. And 
his name is off the record. 

Mr. Steedman. And the leaders of the strike emerged as the 
leaders of the inside government at Poston after the strilce? 

Mr. James. At Poston No. 1. For the sake of the record I shoidd 
like to point out that the people of Poston No. 2, who came from 
California — Salinas Valley and Monterey County, refused to join 

' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9135 

the people of Poston No. 1 in this walk-out, even though pressures 
were brought to bear by certain individuals in their camp. They 
attempted to carry terrorism uito Poston No. 2 but they withstood 
the pressure and stayed with us, and so did the people at Poston 
No. 3. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The strike and trouble was all confined to Poston 
No. 1? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You say the people from Salinas Valley and Mon- 
terey were located in camp No. 2? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; and stayed with us and gave us loyal support. 

Mr. CosTELLO. From what area did the people in camp No. 3 
come from? 

Mr. James. From San Diego and a number from the vSan Joaquin 
Valley. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And those in Poston No, 1 came from what area? 

Mr. James. Orange County, Imperial Valley, Boyle Heights, Los 
Angeles; San Bernardino County, and a few from the soutliern San 
Joaquin Valley and a few from Arizona. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And what was the population of Poston No. 1? 

Mr. James. Approximately 10,000 at the time of the strike. We 
had over 19,000 in the entire camp. 

Mr. Costello. And what was the population of camp No. 2 and 
camp No. 3? 

Mr. James. Well, the division would be sometliing like this: 
Approximately 10,000 at Poston No. 1, about 4,000 at Poston No. 2, 
and pretty close to 5,000 at Poston No. 3. It added up to in excess 
of 19,000 at that time. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were there about 10,000 people involved in the strike? 

Mr. James. Between 9,000 and 10,000 involved. 

Mr. Costello. Were there very many people in Poston No. 1 
who remained in their homes and did not participate in the strike? 

Air. James. There were a number. The people from Yuma, Ariz., 
and from practically all of Arizona, practically all the Arizona group 
that we had in there, several hundred of them, maintained perfect 
order and while they were threatened they were cooperating with us. 

Mr. Costello. To a great extent did the leaders of the strike go 
into their homes and force them to participate in the strike? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. The coercion usually took place in the mess 
halls. They would lock them in the mess halls and give them the 
line of action and keep them there for a sufficient period of time to 
condition them as to what duties they were to perform. 

Air. Costello. At mealtime they were given harangues and pep 
talks about the strike? 

Air. James. Yes, sir; the indoctrination occurred there. 

Air. Costello. Were the addresses usually given in Japanese? 

Mr. James. Usually in Japanese; yes. 

Air. Costello. Were there any white persons at the mess halls 
during the lunch hour, usuaUy? 

Mr. James. No, sir. 

Air. Costello. So the nature of the talks would not be known 
except as hearsay? 

Air. James. That is right. 



9136 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLo. Unless somebody reported it? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. You started to read a poem at one time and you 
stopped. I wondered why you started to read it and then stopped. 
Did it have some special significance? 

Mr. Eberharter. May we go off the record? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. CosTELLO. On the record. 

Mr. MuNDT. May I ask one other question? Where is this very 
wealthy Japanese merchant now? 

Mr. James. He is still in Poston. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Any questions? 

Mr. Eberharter. No questions. 

Mr. Costello. The committee will stand adjourned until 10 
o'clock tomorrow morning. 

(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., the hearing adjourned until 10 a. m.^ 
Saturday, June 12, 1943.) 



I 



INVESTIGATION' OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



SATURDAY, JUNE 12, 1943 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States 
Post Office and Courthouse, Los Angeles, Cahf. Hon; John M. Cos- 
tello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding. 

Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon. 
Herman P. Eberharter. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, 
acting counsel. 

Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. 
Mr. Steedman, you may proceed with the interrogation of the 
witness. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, when we recessed yesterday we 
were discussing the Poston relocation center with Mr. Norris James. 
I want to recall Mr. James for further testimony in connection with 
the Poston relocation center. 
Mr. Costello. Very well. 

TESTIMONY OF NORRIS W. JAMES— Recalled 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. James, I hand you a memorandum marked 
'''Confidential," and entitled, "Problems of Internal Security at the 
Colorado River War Relocation Project," and ask you if you have 
seen this memorandum before? [Handing document to the witness.] 

Mr. James. I have, Mr. Steedman. As I recall it was in the latter 
part of September 1942. 

Mr. Steedman. And have you read this memorandum? 

Mr. James. If it is the same one I think it is, yes; I have seen it. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the facts contained herein true and correct 
to the best of your knowledge and belief? 

Mr. James. To the best of my knowledge and belief; yes. 

I would like to examine them a little bit further. 

Mr. Steedman. I intended to question you on the various state- 
ments made in the memorandum as we go along. 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence this memorandum 
which I have been discussing with Mr. James. 

Mr. Costello. Without objection, it is so ordered. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to quote from the memo- 
randum: 

Foreword. The Colorado River war relocation project at Poston, Ariz., now 
has a Japanese evacuee population of approximately 18,000 persons. 

9137 



9138 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Would you- fix the date of this memorandum? 

Mr. James. Well, I would say offhand about September 20, 1942, 
was the time I saw it last. 

Mr. Steedman. And was that the first tinje you had seen it? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. I would say it was prepared somewhere 
around that time. * * * 

Mr. Steedman. I quote again from the memorandum: 

Poston is located approximately 19 miles south and slightly west of Parker, 
Ariz. The three center units (Poston I, 10,000; and Poston II and III, each 
5,000) are all within 4 miles of the Colorado River. Three miles of mosquito- 
covered desert separate each of the three units. 

To the immediate east, 5 to 10 miles from Poston and rising sharply above the- 
Parker Valley plain (elevation 480 feet), is La Quadra Desert, a waterless, deeply 
eroded arid tract of approximately 800 square miles. 

Between June 15 and September 1, 1942, daily temperatures at Poston varied 
between 120° and 130° in mid-July, the United States Army engineers recQrded 
one thermometer reading of 145° in the direct sun. 

In materials and labor, the Poston project cost in excess of $10,000,000. Per 
barrack or apartment unit, the United States engineers estimate the cost at 
$3,500. 

Disaster, with attendant loss of life and/or propertj^, can occur at Poston in 
three forms: (1) Fire, (2) flood, (3) internal rioting, involving either groups of 
Japanese evacuees, or Japanese evacuees and members of the Caucasian adminis- 
tration, or Japanese evacuees and Mojave Indians on the adjacent Colorado- 
River Indian Reservation. 

In examining the problem of internal security at Poston, the possibility of 
external sabotage must not be overlooked in spite of every surface indication that 
Poston is isolated by stretches of arid desert. 

External sabotage at Boulder or Parker Dams, along the Los Angeles Metro- 
politan Water District Aqueduct, on the Santa Fe transcontinental railroad from 
Barstow to Needles, on the Santa Fe Line, via Cadiz and Parker, to Phoenix, and 
on the Southern Pacific Sunset Route from Los Angeles to Yuma, Ariz., might con- 
ceivably be financed ^.nd even directed by subversive elements of wealth and power 
who may, or may not, be residing in Poston as evacuees. 

Again, remote as it may seem, there are possibilities of direct and indirect con- 
tact between any subversive elements residing as evacuees in Poston and Japanese 
Navy or military personnel in Baja California, or the area adjacent to the delta 
of the Colorado River within the boundaries of the Republic of Mexico. 

Is the paragraph I have just finished reading substantially correct^ 
to the best of yom' loiowledge? 

Mr. James. Yes. Of course it is all based on hypotheses, Mr. 
Steedman. It w:ould be possible; yes. 

There are people of great wealth residing in Poston without any mail 
censorship to my knowledge. It would be possible for those people 
to act as pay-offs, I imagine, for external saboteurs, either white or 
other racial extractions. 

That, again, is purely hypothetical. Those conditions do exist 
though. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. James, do you have any knowledge regarding 
the Japanese south of the California border? Have they been 
evacuated from Lower California? 

Mr. James. They were evacuated by the Republic of Mexico, 
Congressman Costello, at approximately the same time that we 
evacuated our Japanese from the American Pacific coast. 

Prior to our evacuation, for the purpose of the record, I should like 
to point out that in Canada the Japanese were moved out of British 
Columbia and settled in small camps in distances from 1,000 to 1,500 
miles from the coast. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9139 

Mr. CosTELLO. At the present time in Mexico there are no Jap- 
anese along the coastal region? 

Mr. James. Neither in Lower California nor on either side of the 
Gulf of California; that is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have any information on a movement in 
Canada to resettle the Japanese who were removed from British 
Columbia? 

Mr. James. None whatever. To my knowledge they were all in 
the small camps that have-been selected in the Canadian Rockies. 

Mr. Steedman (continuing to quote from the memorandum) : 

Intepnal Security at Poston 

1. There are now at Poston 3 separate police forces composed entirely of 
Nisei evacuees. None of the personnel, now numbering between 60 and 80, has 
ever been checked as to loyalties, family background, or identification" with 
Japanese "loyalty" societies. Since Poston first began receiving evacuees in May, 
there has never been any trained Caucasian supervision of police personnel, and 
to this date (September 15, 1942) there has been no appointment for the position 
of internal security officer. 

"When was the mternal security officer appointed at Poston center? 

Mr. James. I believe Mr. Ernest Miller was appointed efl'ective 
October 1, IMr. Steedman. That would seem to the best of my knowl- 
edge, to be substantially correct. 

And there was no Caucasian or white internal security officer 
supervising the three police departments of Poston during the period 
from approximately l\lay to October 1, nor was there a check made as 
to the background of the personnel of the police department. As I 
pointed out yesterday, at Poston we had limited resources in the way 
of material in checking on the backgroimd of these people. 

Mr. Steedman. Who selected the original policemen? 

Mr. James. I believe that at that time the position of internal 
security officer was under community services. In other words, 
mider Miss N-ell Findley. 

The appointment, however, I am sure would have to be made by 
the project director, Mr. Head. And here again I am passing on 
material that I need to refresh my memory on; but to the best of my 
recollection, !^lr. Steedman, that was the set-up. The appointment 
would be made by ]Mr. Head through Miss Findley's office. 

Mr. Steedman. But in the final analysis Aliss Findley would 
actually select the policemen, isn't that correct? 

Mr. James. She would have something to say about it. 

Mr. Steedman. And Mr. Head would have to act on her recom- 
mendation in selecting the Japanese policemen? 

jSIr. James. You mean the white or Japanese police? 

;Mr. Steedman. Japanese poficemen inside of the center? 

Mr. James. That 1 don't know. I imagine she had something to 
say about the police department. 

Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote: 

For the past 4% months, the Poston police department has operated as a divi- 
sion of communit}' services. 

At that time, September 15, 1942, Miss Nell Findley was the head 
of community services, was she not? 
Mr. James. That is coiTect. 



9140 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

» 

Mr. Steedman. And as head of the community services she was 
chief of pohce at Poston too, was she not? 

Mr. James. Well, I suppose so. I suppose hypothetically, yes, 
sure she was. 

Mr. Steedman. We have here the ridiculous situation of Miss Nell 
Findley, who has the background of a social worker, working as chief 
of police of this large city of 19,000 evacuated Japanese. 

Mr. James. Let me put it this way: She had a great deal of say 
about the operation of the police force and the procedure for appre- 
hending the people who committed misdemeanors or anything of that 
sort, subject, probably, to Mr. Head's final decision. 

Mr. Costello. The possibility is, however, that there was very 
little supervision of the police force by any white personnel? 

Mr. James. That is correct, Mr. Costello. 

Mr. Costello. And as a consequence the Japanese themselves 
were operating the police force? 

Mr. James. That is correct. It was technically under Miss 
Findley's direction without any supervision on her part. 

Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote: 

The post fire department was first organized by William Hoffman, regional 
fire marshal. It is now operating as three separate units, each responsible to 
the unit administrator. (For further details of the operation of the Poston Fire 
Department, see Mr. Hoffman.) 

3. Communication remains one of the most serious internal-security problems 
at Poston. Since early May, United States Signal Corps units have been con- 
structing a new telephonic circuit aJong the abandoned Colorado River Road 
south of Poston III, thence to Ehrenberg, Ariz., by way of the ghost town of 
La Paz, thence across the river to Blythe, Calif., and a transcontinental truck 
system. Due to duststorms this telephonic system between Parker and Blythe 
is frequently out of commission. Early in June there were several instances, 
reported by the United States Army engineers (see San Diego area headquarters) 
in which this line was frequently disrupted due to sabotage. 

Do you know what the nature of the sabotage was in connection 
with the disrupting of this telephone service betweon Parker and 
Blythe? 

Mr. James. I know of several instances where there was actual 
sabotage, Mr. Steedman. I happened to have seen several instances 
where the wires were down. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you investigate those instances yourself? 

Mr. James. I investigated one with Mr. Ellis Georgia, who was 
the area engineer for the United States engineers at Poston, Ariz. 

In this particular instance a circuit breaker had been placed across 
the wires — a circuit breaker about this long [indicating], a heavy 
piece of wire that had been curved on both ends and it had broken 
the telephone circuit. 

Mr. Steedman. Wlien did that happen? 

Mr. James. That happened in the month of October — -no, the 
month of September on or about September 15. It occurred about 
100 yards north of the old military police barracks at Poston II. 
Line between Poston II and Poston I, as I recall, went out along 
about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and we were able to put through no 
telephone calls between Poston I a^nd Poston II. There were Jap- 
anese residing in the camp then. 

I do want to point out that in the period from early in May through 
June there was reported breaks iii the telephone circuit between 
camp III and Ehrenberg, Ariz., and Blythe, Calif., due to the work 
of Indians, probably. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9141 

I remember Air. Georgia reciting that to me. In that case the 
wires were torn off the telephone poles. The Indians did not like the 
Japanese particularly. They felt some resentment at these people 
occupying then- happy hunting grounds. 

Mr. Steedman. Does any feeling exist between the Indians and 
the Japanese there now? 

Air. James. There is feeling on both sides. The Indians don't 
like the Japanese and the Japanese don't want to be regarded as 
wards of the Government as the Indians have been. 

Air. Steedman. Has there been any trouble between the Indians 
and the Japanese? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. On July 4, we had a baseball 
game between — a softball game between an all-star Poston team and 
the Parker Indian Keservation team. The score was Poston 29 and 
Parker Indians zero, and the Parker Indians didn't like that. 

Air. CosTELLO. Even Brooklyn doesn't like that. 

Mr. James. On Alay 28 

Air. Steedman. What year? 

Air. James. 1942, with the cooperation of the Columbia Broadcast- 
ing System of Los Angeles, a transcontinental radio broadcast was put 
on at Ponton. 

I helped Chet Huntley, special events director for C. B. S., Los 
Angeles, in the preparation of this program, which was part of the 
O. E. Al. program Report to the Nation. 

Because of the frequent break-downs of the telephone system, the 
Signal Corps officer at Poston had every piece of mechanized equip- 
ment that he had patrolling the line between Poston III and Ehren- 
berg, so the wires would not go down during the course of the broad- 
cast. 

Air. Steedman. Directing your attention to the instance you inves- 
tigated where the breaker was across the telephone wire between 
Poston I and Poston II, was anybody ever apprehended for this 
particular act of sabotage? 

Mr. James. No. It is very difficult to apprehend anyone because 
of the distances we would have to patrol. 

Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Georgia say that was an act of sabotage? 

Mr. James. Definitely. I believe that that actual circuit breaker 
is in the possession now of the United States district engineer's office 
in Los Angeles. 

Air. Steedman. Did the Japanese evacuees have access to the parti- 
cular spot where that act occurred? 

Air. James. Oh, yes. 

Air. Steedman. Were they passing back and forth daily? 

Air. James. They were. 

Air. Steedman. That location? 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote from the memorandum: 

4. The possibilities of disaster by flood should not be overlooked at Poston. 
Flood control along this section of the Colorado River which flanks Parker Valley 
is largely based upon controls established at Lake Huavasu (Parker Dain) and 
Lake Mead (Boulder Dam). Each autumn, in the months of October, Novem- 
ber, and December, sufficient run-off is permitted at Huavasu and Mead to allow 
for the aruiual spring run-off and flood from watersheds and river and stream 
tributaries to the Colorado. In the event, however, of early autunui rains or early 
snowfall, followed by rains, floodijig of certain areas of Parker Valley can be ex- 
pected to a greater or lesser extent. Such a flood, attributed to the foregoing 



9142 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

reasons, occurred in 1939, according to Mr. Robert Rupkey, Chief of the United 
States Indian vService Engineers, with headquarters at Parker, Ariz. This flood, 
to a depth of between a foot and two feet, actually spread over an area now occu- 
pied by Poston I. A second source of possible flood at Poston is the La Quadra 
mesa to the immediate east of the Colorado River relocation project. Here are 
located two large washes — Brouse wash and Tyson wash, ^\'hen storms of cloud- 
burst proportion occur on this mesa land, one or both of these washes can be ex- 
pected to reach river proportions with flood depths of from I to 4 feet and a flood 
breadth of from 400 to 800 feet. Floodwater from the Brouse wash can be ex- 
pected to hit either Poston I or Poston II. A similar flood condition occurring in 
Tyson wash, could conceivably inundate portions of Poston III. 

Evacuees and Internal Security at Poston 

Herewith are a number of case histories, tabbed with sources of additional 
Information from reliable persons, which may, or may not, substantiate the follow- 
ing personal observations: 

1. That Japanese evacuees at Poston, both Issei and Nisei alike, are arming 
themselves with implements of force. 

2. That there is increasing antagonism on the part of both Issei and Nisei 
toward the "hakujin" or Caucasian, and that at in at least one instance there has 
been actual use of force toward said Caucasians on the part of evacuees. 

3. That there are ever-increasing sources of conflict between the Caucasian 
administration due to — 

(a) Lack of a realistic policy on the part of both the War Relocation Authority 
and the United States Indian Affairs Bureau in refusing to recoijimend the 
segregation of disloyal Japanese, labor agitators, or radicals from loyal groups. 

(b) Loss of "face" by many administrators, their assistants, and subordinates 
in dealing with Japanese evacuees because of ineffectual policies and work pro- 
grams but particularly because of their inability to make loyal Nisei feel that they 
are contributing to the war effort. 

(c) A growing consciousness on the part of many evacuees that they are often 
being used as human guinea pigs by doctrinaires, anthropologists, and social- 
service workers attached to the project staff. 

4. That, by throwing together a heterogeneous group of both loyal and disloyal 
Japanese, the trend in Poston is now definitely toward a major portion of the 
Nisei population shedding any outward loyalties to the Government of the United 
States. And further, because the Nisei population has almost completely de- 
pleted its slim financial resources, it must more and more come to depend upon 
an internal economy controlled by the Issei, hence it may be anticipated that 
Nisei attitudes and acts will be "increasingly shaped by Issei forces. Finally, 
with mass claustrophobia — the sense of being shut in on all four sides by a desert 
wilderness — prompting strange mental quirks, especially among the younger 
elements of the Poston project, one can anticipate some measure of suicides, 
attempts to escape by land or river and, finally, if strong subversive forces are 
residing at the project, actual sabotage, internal or external. 

Is the information contained in the portion of this document which 
I have just read, entitled, "Evacuees and Internal Security at Poston," 
true and correct to the best of your knowledge? 

Mr. James. Yes. I would say that that is a good summary of the 
way things stood in September. 

Mr. Steedman. September of 1942? 

Mr. James. September of 1942. We had just come out of a very 
hot summer and the problem of segregation had not been dealt with 
at all, Mr. Steedman. I think that was the thing that was perhaps 
most detrimental to the operation of this tremendous project. 

I think here you had a project which was staffed with capable 
men — those entrusted with the major task of administration, but I 
think there were not enough first things that had come first, and 
segregation is certainly one of them. 

The danger signals were there but they were not heeded. I would 
concur withniost of the things that are mentioned in that paragraph. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9143 

IVIr. Steedman. As a matter of fact had not the so-called bad 
Japanese left Los Angeles first and arrived at Poston and thereby 
gained control of some of the major functions inside of the Japanese 
community? 

Mr. James. That is partially true. In the first groups that came — 
and in lookhig back now it seems strange that at Poston and at 
several of the other centers that I am acquainted with — in voluntary 
groups, there were always a few who later popped up as trouble- 
makers. That is, my frank opinion would be that they were planted 
there. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you mean they decided to leave Los Angeles 
before the F. B. L picked them up? 

Mr. James. That is probably true, in the belief that they were 
going to be resettled there permanently or relocated in the centers 
permanently; and probably the investigating agencies and law-en- 
forcing agencies thought they would he perfectly safe. 

Of course, when the resettlement program was announced on 
approximately the middle of November by Mr. Dillon Myer, then 
the security of confinement within the relocation centers disappeared. 

I merely stress that point because I think that was the origmal 
belief on the part of the investigative agencies, that they would be 
secure, these people of questionable character would be secure in the 
relocation centers pending a screening test to find out just who they 
wanted to be sent to Bismarck or Santa Fe, N. Mex. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Was the need for segregation known to the heads 
of the projects and to the head of the project at Poston, and I am 
referring to such men as Mr. Head and Mr. Empie? 

Mr. James. I believe it was. I know Mr. Head personally, back, 
way back in the middle of the summer, in August, recommended 
segregation. 

JSlr. CosTELLO. Did he make that recommendation to Washington? 

^Ir. James. I believe he did. 

Mr. CosTELLO. In other words the. authorities in Washington were 
:aware of the conditions pretty well as to how they stood at Poston? 

Mr. James. That is true. I remember in August — I can't men- 
tion the date because I haven't the notes here, we received from 
Santa Anita assembly center the greater portion of the Tokyo gambling 
club from Los Angeles, including the bouncer and some of the most 
conspicuous characters in the operation of the games. 

There were some twenty of them that came in. They had been 
involved in trouble at Santa Anita and for some reason they were sent 
to Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you have the names of those comprising the 
Tokyo gambling club group? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; I do. I remember the name of the bouncer. 
His first name was Kinji Ikeda. 

Kinji Ikeda, for the sake of the record, is the former middleweight 
judo wrestling champion of the Pacific coast. He is a man of about 
43 years of age now. 

Mr. Steedman. Is Kinji Ikeda at the Poston center now? 

Mr. James. To the best of m}^ knowledge, Mr. Steedman, he is. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it your information that the Black Dragon 
Society operated the Tokyo gambling club in Los Angeles? 

Mr. James. I don't know about that, Mr. Steedman. I can talk 
about northern California but not about Los Angeles. I would 



9144 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS 

rather be inclined to doubt it, though. Unquestionably, members of 
the Black Dragon Society frequented the Tokyo club. The Tokyo 
gambling club was a well-established gambling outfit here in Los 
Angeles. 

Mr. Eberharter. Air. James, do you think there was anyone in 
the camp administrative personnel, and I am referring to the white 
personnel, who was competent or had the means and facilities to 
distinguish who might be termed "troublemakers" and those who 
might be termed "good Japanese?" In other words could a separa- 
tion have been practicably accomplished? 

Mr. James. Not without the help of all the existing qualified 
agencies. 

Mr. Eberharter. You mean the investigative agencies of the 
Government? 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. Eberharter. And including city authorities? 

Mr. James. That is correct. To detect loyalty requires, in my 
estimation, a very minute check on the performance records of these 
individuals during the years they lived in California or in other 
sections of the west coast, plus other factors. It isn't a simple task. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is what occmTed to me; it would not be an 
easy thing to accomplish. 

Mr. James. It isn't. It isn't an easy thing. I want to be perfectly 
fair to all officials at W. R. A. and the Indian Sei'vice. I think that 
segregation is extremely difficult to carry out. I think it requires the 
best efforts of all the law-enforcing agencies, local, State, and certainly 
Federal, including the Army and the Navy. 

Mr. Eberharter. And there was nobody in the administrative 
white personnel at Poston really qualified or competent to carry out 
the segregation, was there? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Eberharter. But you say Mr. Head recommended it? 

Mr. James. Mr. Head saw it coming and I am sure recommended it. 

Mr. Eberharter. Did he recommend a method by which it could 
be accomplished? 

Mr. James. No. 

Mr. Eberharter. Or any steps or procedure for its accomplish- 
ment? 

Mr. James. I don't think he did. 

Mr. Eberharter. Just generally recommended it? 

Mr. James. Generally recommended it. I know that he deeply 
resented two things: The coming of the parolees from Bismarck and 
New Mexico, and the dumping into Poston of these subversive 
elements from Santa Anita and criminal elements from Los Angeles. 

Mr. Eberharter. Those could have been, and in your opinion 
should have been, segregated immediately? 

Mr. James. Definitely. 

Mr. Eberharter. And they could have been segregated? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. Without any difficulty? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Eberharter. And with complete justification? 

Mr. James. With complete justification; yes. They had already 
been involved in an incident at Santa Anita. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9145 

Mr. Eberharter. That is all I have. 

Mr. CosTELLO. If that had been done it would have been a com- 
paratively simple matter to pick up other troublemakers in the camp 
from time to time and segregate them likewise? 

Mr. James. That is right. It could have been done very humanely. 
Those men and their families could have been picked up and deposited 
in some other center especially created for the handling of trouble- 
makers. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do you, with your knowledge of Japanese 
psychology, tliink that would have had a good effect on the rest of the 
•Japanese in the relocation centers? 

Mr. James. It would have bolstered up the Americanism of the 
young, inmiature Nisei. They looked to us to do it. 

I think the average Nisei when they first came into the camp, 
represented a very fine type of youth. They were very much like our 
own American-born youngsters. I am talking now in terms of a year 
ago — May and June a year ago. 

They were interested in the things that other American kids are 
interested in — sports and various American activities. They were 
not strong enough, however, to stand up against their elders and 
against the small fractional group which had been indoctrinated and 
given, probably given instructions from representatives of Imperial 
Japan as to just what to do. 

As this program developed I feel convinced in my own mind now, 
that right from the start there was a small group who were determined 
to destroy the usefulness to the United States of these American-born 
Japanese. I think that they have been sucftessful. I think that the 
record shows that. 

Mr. Eberharter. So you think actually there is now less loyalty 
on the part of a great number of these Japanese, less loyalty to the 
United States than there was before they came to the camp? 

Mr. James. I think that they are definitely confused and that they 
have now developed very definitely an antiwhite feeling, an anti- 
Hakujin feeling, and have become psychopathic cases, if you please, 
where it is extremely improbable whether they can be resettled any 
place until they have been reconditioned in the relocation centers. 

Until segregation can be worked out and the vacuum that exists in 
most of these centers eliminated, the vacuum being the absence of a 
wartime spirit — of a feeling that they are playing a part in America 
at war, I question very much whether we can salvage these potentially 
fine American-born boys and girls. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Without segregation, we definitely will not salvage 
any of them? 

Mr. James. Definitely. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is the physical set-up in these camps such that 
segregation can successfully take place within the boimdaries of a 
smgle camp? 

Mr. James. I wouldn't want to express an opinion on that, Con- 
gressman Mundt. I think there are Army officials and certainly 
F. B. I. officials, who could give you an expert opinion on that. I 
wouldn't feel qualified, but in my own opinion, no; it can't be done. 

Mr. CosTELLO. It wouldn't be practicable, for example, at Poston, 
•to put all the segregated Japanese into camp three, for example? 
' Mr. James. I doubt it. 



9146 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLo. There would still be too much communication! 
between camps one, two, and three? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. If that is correct, that it cannot be done, then segre- 
gation cannot take place until the W. R. A. policy at the top, in 
Washington, is changed? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. Knowing that the project directors themselves can 
do nothing about segregating them? 

Mr. James. That is right. And it now must be worked out on a 
mass scale where if it had been worked, startmg a year ago last May, 
it would have been confined to a few himdred. Now, your estimate 
is as good as mine. 

Mr. MuNDT. While it is undoubtedly true, we are not able to 
attain anything like perfection in this segregation business, and you 
would have to call in all the agencies of the Government and have an 
enormous amount of investigators, is it not equally true that if the 
policy of segregation was approved and authorized by Washington, 
that each project director — Mr. Head at Poston and the other people 
in the other localities, the next day would be able to recommend small 
groups from their camps who should be segregated? 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. So that progress could begin at once? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. MuNDT. Without any increase in cost or administrative per- 
sonnel in the business of segregation if somebody at Washington 
would order that policy? 

Mr. James. That is right. I believe tliis too, that evacuation from 
the west coast was an essential wartime movement. Those of us who 
were born and raised out here feel in our hearts that was absolutely a 
necessity. That there were unquestionably hardsliips rendered in the 
mass evacuation, but nevertheless it was splendidly carried out by the 
Army and its civilian agency, W. C. C. A. Similarly in the tremen- 
dous problem of segregation hardships and injustices may occur, but 
I feel that in the case of segregation not only will we have the support 
of approximately 130,000,000 white Americans on the outside, but 
we will also have the extremely appreciative support of those girls 
and boys and the few aliens who appreciate what America means. 

We will have their support and gratitude because they want these 
malefactors, these subversive people moved out too. 

Mr. MuNDT. In other words you believe that a majority of the 
Japanese themselves would be better pleased if the roughneck ele- 
ment were segregated away from these camps? 

Mr. James. I certainly know that the women would. The women 
want to be Americans. I pointed out yesterday that I am firmly con- 
vinced some of those women would rather die than go back to the 
bondage their mothers were in. 

Mr. MuNDT. That should also be true of some of these men who 
have tried to remain loyal during the strike? 

Mr. James. That is true. It is true of such cases as the old alien 
I pointed out to you, who raised and lowered the flag every day I 
was there — Mr. Tashima. 

Mr. MuNDT. And to correct or start the process of correcting this 
perfectly indefensible position now existing in some of the camps, all 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9147 

that is needed is for somebody in A\asliington to push a pen in the 
proper direction at the proper time? 

Mr. James. That is correct, in n^y estimation. 

Mr. Steedman. Directino; your attention again to Kenji Ikeda, 
have 3"ou inspected Ikeda's worlv record since he was at Poston? 

Mr. James. I did, but I haven't the papers with me. He was 
identified with the strike. He was a picket during the Poston dis- 
turbances—a block picket representing a l)lock. I haven't his record 
here, Mr. Steedman, so I cannot tell you what he was doing at Poston. 

In other words, I don't know whether he w^as a goh player or not. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether he was plying his trade as a 
gambler at the Poston center? 

Mr. James. I don't know. 

Mr. Steedman. Does organized gambling exist in the Poston 
center? 

^h. James. In a city of 18,000, I imagine there is. . These people 
are like many other people of Asiatic origin — they like to gamble. 

Mr. Steedman. Is gambling organized there? 

Mr. James. I couldn't say; I am not familiar with that. 

Wr. Steedman. Ikeda was very prominent in the judo club, I 
believe you stated? 

Air. James. Previously, yes. He was a retired middleweight judo 
champion on the coast and he later used his talents to become a 
bouncer for the Tokyo club. 

Mr. Steedman. Continuing to read from the memorandum the 
paragraph headed: 

Case Histories Affecting Internal Security at Poston — Arms and 

THE Evacuees 

The Office of the United States Army Engineers at the Poston project con- 
fidentially reports that whenever such material as pipe, or reinforcing steel has 
been used on the project for construction, hundreds of left-over pieces have been 
appropriated by the Japanese. 

Mr. James. That should not be the "Army Engineers." It should 
be "U. S. E. D." For the sake of the record, I know Mr. Georgia's 
connection and l\lr. Ferguson's connection. It isn't the Armv; it is 
theU. S. E. D. 

Mr. CosTELLO. This designation of the branch of the service that 
Mr. Georgia and Mr. Ferguson are in is incorrect? 

Mr. James. It is incorrect. It should be U. S. E. D. 

Mr. Steedman. Did this. matter of the Japanese appropriating 
left-over piece of pipe come to your attention w^hile you were at the 
center? 

Mr. James. Yes; there were hundreds of pieces of small pipe 
that were left over from the construction of the sewage-disposal 
plant and other works where reinforcing steel w^as needed and where 
plurribing was used. 

Mr. Steedman. And were the pieces of pipe that were stolen the 
same type of pipe that was used to beat up Kay Nishimura? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese armed with pipe during the 
so-called strike or riot? 

Mr. James. Well, I never saw any, but I imagine in a state of affairs 
such as existed there, unquestionably certain elements did carry 



9148 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

pieces of pipe. It would be natural that they would want to defend 
themselves. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am quoting again from the 
memorandum: 

On or about August 15, 1942, at approximately 6 p. m., the following incident 
occurred at Poston Camp IIT, involving a Mr. Steele, subforeman for Del E. Webb 
Construction Co. Mr. Steele and a helper had just completed work at the 
Poston Til sewage-disposal plant, located in an area of that camo as yet unoccu- 
pied by evacuees. 

The policies laid down by Mr. Wade Head, the project director, and the ad- 
ministrator of Poston, Mr. Moris Burge, traffic laws are enforced by Japanese 
policemen who have control over both Caucasian and Japanese traffic. 

Mr. Steele and his helper left the sewage-disposal plant in a pick-up truck and 
were progressing through Poston III at a .speed of approximately 35 miles an 
hour ?violating the 10-mile-an-hour limit posted on signs throughout this camp) 
when thev were stopped by an evacuee policeman who attempted to arrest Mr. 
Steele. Bitter words followed, and Mr. Steele struck the policeman on the arm 
with a tool carried in the car. Tlie policeman then called for help and within 2 
minutes the car was surrounded b}' a group of angry Japanese. The size of this 
crowd was estimated to be between 20 and 50 men. They were armed with clubs, 
pieces of pipe, and pieces of reinforcing steel. 

The windshield on the car was broken, and one fender damaged. Mr. Steele 
was taken to the Poston III police station, but in the meantime the helper escaped. 

The evacuees rushed to a telephone and telephoned to the Signal Corps unit 
located in Poston II. In a very short space of time the Signal Corps unit arrived 
and took over the police station at the point of drawn automatic rifles. The 
project director and his assistants arrived on the scene and the dispute was 
temporarily settled. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the incident that I have just read? 

Mr. James. I do. I think there is a mistake there. I think it was 
the helper who was with Mr. Steele that called the Signal Corps unit 
and not the evacuees. 

As a matter of fact, I am quite sure it was not the evacuees who 
called the Signal Corps unit for help. It was the helper, but that is 
substantially correct, to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Signal Corps unit have to rescue Mr. 
Steele from the Japanese policemen? 

Mr. James. What happened was, as I recall it, the helper forgot to 
call the military police; he called the Signal Corps instead. Actually 
there was a mix-up on that case. The military police, as I understand 
it, under the terms of the agreement set down by the War Depart- 
ment and the War Relocation Authority cannot enter the camp 
except on the request of the project director. 

In this case, however, Mr. Steele's helper called the lieutenant in 
charge of the Signal Corps for help and he rushed in to move Mr. 
Steele out of the jail. 

There was a question there as to whether the Japanese police at 
Poston had the right to arrest a white man for a violation of a speed- 
ing law which had been set up, presumably by the Japanese them- 
selves. I recall that there was a good deal of tension in the No. Ill 
unit at Poston — that is Poston No. Ill, as a result of this incident. 

It is quite true these men who surrounded the car were armed with 
short pieces of pipe and clubs and that they did do damage as stated in 
that report. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese attack Mr. Steele after they 
arrested him? 

Mr. James. I believe that in the office of the Del E. Webb Con- 
struction Co. at Phoenix, Ariz., there is an affidavit in connection with 



UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9149 

that incident and to the best of my recollection in that affidavit Mr. 
Steele was not molested when he was in the Poston III police station. 

The molestation occm-red when the policeman laid a hand on Mr. 
Steele and attempted to take him from the car and when the mob 
came — not a mob, but when this crowd of 20 or ;30 men rushed to the 
assistance of the policemen, they, too, attempted to hustle Mr. Steele 
out of the car by laying hands on him. That is all in the affidavit, I 
believe, that is on file in the office of the Del Webb Construction Co. in 
Phoenix. I recall seeing that affidavit and it was signed by Mr. 
Steele. 

Mr. Steedman. And reading further from the memorandum: 

Additional Source op Information 

In the possession of the Del E. Webb Construction Co., Mr. Charles Newell, 
superintendent, there is an affidavit from Mr. Steele setting forth further par- 
ticulars. 

Although evacuee baggage has been subject to search bj' the provost marshal 
guards upon the arrival of Japanese groups at Poston, no check for contraband 
items has ever been made on hundreds of parcel post packages and express 
bundles which arrive on the project each day. 

In connection with the statement I have just read, has a search 
of baggage been instituted since the writing of this memorandum? 

Mr. James. There has. Lieutenant General DeWitt issued a 
special order, I believe, in November of 1942, and, to my knowledge, 
the military police search or examine all parcel-post packages which 
arrive at Poston. 

Mr. CosTELLO. That is the military police and not the Japanese? 

Mr. James. Not the Japanese. The military police do that. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Speaking of the Japanese police, do they have 
authority to arrest any of the white personnel who might violate any 
traffic regulations or would distrub the peace, or so on? 

Mr. James. It is a little confused, Mr. Costello, as to just what 
the set-up on that is. 

When this Steele incident occmTcd, for a short period of time, for 
about a month, they presumably had the right to arrest white people 
for speeding. I don't know whether the code of laws in Poston has 
ever been recognized by the W. R. A. and the Indian Service. 

I know the temporary code was drawn up and forwarded to Wash- 
ington, but I am not sure whether that has been okayed. 

Mr. Costello. With reference to the Steele incident and in order 
that the record may be perfectly clear, did I imderstand you to say 
the Japanese police officers placed their hands on Mr. Steele at the 
time the officer stopped him to arrest him for speeding? 

Mr. James. That is correct, whereupon Mr. Steele reached in his 
glove compartment and pulled out a small wTench and hit the policeman 
on the arm. 

Mr. Costello. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. I contmue to quote from the memorandum: 

Evacuees visiting in Parker, .\riz.. have occasionally purchased knives in local 
stores. The manager of a five-and-dime store reported in August that an evacuee 
laborer had purchased several large knives '"at the request of his mess hall chef." 

Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the situation which is 
referred to in the paragi-aph I just read? 

Mr. James. Not of the actual purchase of knives, although it is 
probably true, Mr. Steedman. Our people used to go in there and 

62626 — 43— VOL 15 21 



9150 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

they were able to buy in Parker anything that the merchants would 
sell them. 

Mr. Steedman. Were there no restrictions as to what they could 
purchase in the stores at Parker? 

Mr. James. That is correct, up until the time they were no longer 
permitted to do so. 

Mr. Steedman. Were the pm-chases of the Japanese inspected when 
they returned to Poston from Parker? 

Mr. James. Presumably checked by the military police at the sta- 
tion there — the guard station. 

Mr. Steedman. Was it a part of the duties of the military police to 
check all incoming parcels? 

Mr. James. That is correct, they were supposed to check all incom- 
ing parcels but, on the other hand, it would be quite possible if a 
Japanese had purchased a knife, to conceal it on his person. 

Mr. Steedman. Was a list of contraband established? 

Mr. James. Yes. Lieutenant General DeWitt set up the contra- 
band items that were contraband in the camp. 

Mr. Steedman. Were knives and other weapons on that list? 

Mr. James. I am a little hazy on that, whether knives of a certain 
length were contraband or not. To my Itnowledge knives were not 
contraband but firearms were, though. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was there a different list of contraband before General 
DeWitt issued his order, or no list at all? 

Mr. James. No. There was a list as to what constituted contra- 
band within the Western Defense Command. 

Mr. MuNDT. But no provisions were made for checking the incom- 
ing packages? 

Mr. James. No. That was a loophole so that it would be quite 
possible for anyone to have shipped in certain items of contraband 
through the mail by parcel post during the period that — the interval 
before General DeWitt issued his order that parcels should be 
inspected. 

Mr. MuNDT. And that was a rather substantial loophole, was it 
not? 

Mr. James. Yes; I imagine it was. 

Mr. Steedman. I am quoting again from the memorandum: 

During periods of tension and conflict between evacuees and administration, 
foodstuffs in sizable quantity have been taken from mess-hall storerooms for 
hiding on the project. 

Is that statement correct? 

Mr. James. Yes. It was during the period from May through 
November. 

I would like to point out for the sake of the record, that since 
January 1, Poston has been under a rationing system — ^even before 
the country at large went on a rationing system when a very capable 
steward, C. E. Snelson came in and did, in my estimation, a very 
good job in cleanmg up a bad situation. 

There have been, to my knowledge, no surplus foods nor have 
there been opportunities for Japanese to cache food. 

Mr. Steedman. Prior to that time had the}^ been caching food and 
removing it from the storerooms and dining rooms? 



UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9151 

Mr. James. I believe in connection witlr the general strike there 
was a good deal ol" food cached during the period of tension, and the 
immediate days ahead or preceding the strike — 2 or 3 days preceding 
the strike a lot of food did disappc^ar. 

AJr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the project adminis- 
tration instituted a search for hoarded food at the center? 

Mr. James. I believe that one of Mr. Snclson's first acts when he 
came on the project, under the direction of Mr. Empie, was to collect 
this food — as much as could be brought in from mess halls — that is 
the storerooms of mess halls — and from various hiding places. 

Mr. Steedman. Hiding places in'iidc the Japanese barracks? 

Mr. James. In the Japanese barracks, yes, sir; and in laundry 
rooms, ironing houses, and things of that sort — places where food 
could be stored, case goods, perhaps. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you discuss this search with IMr. Snelson? 

Mr. James. I did, but I am not in possession of any figures of the 
amount of food that was brought back. I know it was a sizable 
amount. 

Air. Steedman. Do you have the approximate amount? 
• Mr. James. No; I haven't. Air. Empie or Air. Snelson, I am sure, 
could furnish those figures. 

Air. Steedman. Was Air. Empie familiar with the searches made 
by Air. Snelson? 

Air. James. Yes. A lot of this food disappeared during Air. Town- 
send's regime there. 

Air. Steedman. That was when they were storing up food in antici- 
pation of the strike or riot that did later occur? 

Air. James. That is right. It has been my observation that the 
same phenomena has occurred in other centers just preceding trouble. 

Mr. Steedman. Quoting again from the memorandum: 

Administration Attitudes Toward Disloyal Japanese 

CASE history 

On or about Jul}- 2, 1942, during the intake period coincident of the arrival of 
3,800 evacuees from the Salinas assembly center, the following incident occurred: 

A Mr. Henry Fujita, spokesman for a family of six, refused to sign either War 
Relocation Authoritj' Form No. 1 or No. 2. 

I believed you explained to the committee yesterday what Forms 
1 and 2 were so I shall not go into that at this time. 

War Relocation Authority Form No. 1 is used for enlistment in the Work Corps. 
Form No. 2 is a simple affidavit not to engage in subversive activities against 
the United States Government. 

Since we were experiencing a daily temperature of 120° and 130°, and most of the 
arriving Salinas evacuees were requiring treatment for heat prostration, I at- 
tributed Mr. Fujita's sullen and antagonistic mood to these conditions. I there- 
fore gave him 5 days, until July 7, at 5 o'clock to return W. R. A. Form No. 2, 
the affidavit of loyalty, properly signed, to me. 

In the ensTiing .5 days Mr. Fujita twice attempted to return the papers defyingly 
stating that he would not sign the affidavit of loyalty. 

Accordingly at 5 p. m., July 8, the deadline having been passed, Mr. Fujita was 
brought to the administration building in Poston I by police escort. 

In the office of Mr. Ralph Gelvin, associate project director, Mr. Fujita was 
questioned by Mr. Norris James, press and intelligence officer, Mr. Theodore 
Haas, project attorney, and Special Agent Ed Smart of the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation, Phoenix, Ariz. 



9152 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Most of the questioning was conducted by Mr. Smart. Mr. Fiijita, while 
insisting that lie was an American citizen (subsequently substantiated) gave 
testimony with wide discrepancy about the years he admitted he spent in Japan. 
Mr. Smart, through questioning, secured several admissions that Mr. Fujita had 
Delonged to various Japanese organizations. 

At this point Mr. Gelvin took over the questioning and directed them in such a 
fashion that Mr. Fujita came to the realization that unless he signed the affidavit, 
the administration would send him and his family out of Poston in the custody 
of the Federal Bureavi of Investigation. 

Mr. Smart indicated that he saw no reason, in view of Fujita's continuing sullen 
mood and the damaging admissions he had already made, that the evacuee and his 
family be allowed to remain. Nevertheless, the administration's' wishes were 
permitted to prevail. Henry Fujita continues to live in Poston. 

Do you recall that incident? 

Mr. James. I do very well. I was a participant in it. 

Mr. Steedman. And is Fujita still at Poston? 

Mr. James. He is. He is the sort of person who, in my estimation, 
should be subject to immediate segregation. The F. B. I. agent who 
was present and questioning him discovered that Fujita belonged to 
certain subversive organizations. 
^ Mr. Steedman. Was he a member of the Black Dragon Society? 

Mr. James. Not a member of the Black Dragon Society. 

Mr. Steedman. In what organization was he a member? 

Mr. James. Kibei Shiman, which is an overseas cultural branch 
which can be traced directly to Toyama who directed the overseas 
work of Japanese subversive activities. 

Mr. Steedman. What other organizations did he belong to? 

Mr. James. He belonged to the Junior Kenjin Kai, which has made 
from time to time contributions to the Imperial Navy fund and 
Imperial Army fund. 

Mr. Steedman. What is Fujita's age? 

Mr. James. I believe about 31. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Fujita is married? 

Mr, James. I don't. I know that in his case he is dominated by 
the rest of his family and they all refused to sign W. R. A. Form 
No. 1, which v/as a sim.ple affidavit not to engage in subversive 
activities or sabotage while at Poston. 

In connection with that, Mr. Fujita came out with a fine bit of 
double talk. He was asked directly by Mr. Smart if he was prepared 
to make an oath on this affidavit. To the best of my recollection 
Mr. Fujita replied: 

When I make an oath in one person's house tliat means one thing; if I make it 
in another person's house, that means another thing. 

Mr. Steedman. Meaning his oath to the United States didn't 
mean very much, is that correct? 

Mr. James. Well, I woukhi't want to put that interpretation on 
it but I would say that certainly the Japanese conception of an oath 
differs completely from a white man's idea of an oath. In other 
words he was capable of making an oath with his fingers crossed. 

Mr. Steedman. Certainly the W. R. A. had sufficient evidence on 
Mr. Fujita to segregate him? 

Mr. James. They did, but there was no segregation program set 
up at that time and no place to segregate him. 

Mr. Steedman. In view of the information you had with regard to 
Fujita when he came into the center, don't you think he should have 
been segregated? 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9153 

Mr. Jamks. I think so. I think Mr. Smart slioiikl have been per- 
mitted to take liim out. Mr. Smart said he liad enough evidence to 
take him out. 

Mr. Steedman. The point I am making is that even after they 
learned the bad Japanese, they took no action to segregate them? 

Mr. James. Simply because Washington would not set up a 
policy of segregation. 

Mr. MuxDT. Wasn't there a place where he could have been sent — 
Bismarck or Santa Fe? 

Mr. James. I believe now the administration took the position that 
he was an American citizen and that American citizens could not be 
sent to concentration camps such as Bismarck or New Mexico. 

(Off the record.) 

^Tr. Steedman. Contuming to read from the memorandum: 

CASE HISTORY 

On or about June 27, 1942, at approximately 10:15 p. m., Pacific standard time 
(11:15 p. m. Mountain standard time), west-bound train No. 124 from Phoenix, 
Ariz., to Los Angeles, crashed into a burning trestle 7 miles west of Earp, Calif. 
The engineer and fireman were killed, and one Poston administrator, H. A. 
Mathiesen, was seriously injured. Aboard that train were 25 United States Army 
flyers, and 1 coach was filled with enlisted men. 

This incident was thoroughly investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investiga- 
tion, and it is well established that the trestle fire was the work of one or more 
saboteurs. The burned trestle is located by air line some 20 miles from Poston I. 

Mr. Steedman. Are the facts that I have just read into the record 
true to the best of your knowledge? 

Mr. James. They are. This train — that was an unusual case, 
Mr. Steedman. Ver}^ seldom on that branch line are troops carried 
from PhoenLx to Los Angeles. At least they were not being carried 
over that line at that time. They had not been carried, according 
to mv best recollection, for a peiiod of several months. 

This was a special case where this car with young aviators, gradu- 
ated from Luppe Field, were bound for Los Angeles. And there was 
a coach filled with Negro soldiers. 

There is no question in the minds of the investigating officers and 
Sheriff of San Bernardino Countv as to its being sabotage. 

Mr. Steedman. Did vou interview the investigating officers? 

Mr. James. With the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I worked 
with them down on the river. 

Mr. Steedman. Did you work with them on that case? 

Mr. James. \ did. I happened to have been, the night before, in 
Needles, Calif., and I was awakened by the division superintendent 
of the Santa Fe Railroad and went directly to the scene of the wreck, 
arriving there at about 4 o'clock in the morning. 

We were there before the Sheriff of San Bernardino County, and 
an Indian trapper was there before the othei-s came up. 

I woi'ked on the case for 2 days and I found down at the river signs 
indicating the Japanese had camped there. 1 believe the F. B. I. was 
able to get statements that they had actually camped there the night 
of the train wreck but there was' nothing to indicate that they had gone 
across the river. There were no marks or any way of identifying that 
this was the work of Japanese. 

However, the river could have been crossed, not at that particular 
point but about a mile awa3^ There was a sandbar about a mile 
away where it would have been easy for them to cross the river. 



9154 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. What evidence of sabotage developed from your 
investigation at the time? 

Mr. James. It developed it was a candle stick type of fire. The 
fire started from the base of the pihng, with nothing growing around 
the piling to start the fire. It is just a dry wash. There was no mes- 
quite or brush around the pillars holding up this trestle. 

As I recall the wreck it had been timed perfectly. The trestle had 
been weakened to the extent that the locomotive plowed down into 
the wash and the baggage car jumped over the locomotive and No. 1 
coach went into the wash. The car behind it, which had the young 
flyers in it telescoped into the baggage car. 

Most of the flyers, for your information, were taken to the Poston 
General Hospital for hospitalization. 

Mr. Steedman. How many people were injured or killed in the 
wreck? 

Mr. James. Two were kifled, to the best of my knowledge — the 
engineer and the fireman. The baggage man was badly injured in the 
wreck. Mr. Mathiesen was hospitalized for a period of about 4 
months. 

Now, may I go on a little bit further on that? 

Mr. Steedman. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Was this bridge within the boundary of the project? 

Mr. James. This was on the California side, Congressman. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just across the river? 

Mr. James. Across the river not over 18 miles away. It is flat 
coulitry with the river in between, but there were sandbars in the 
river so that it would be quite possible for an average swimmer to get 
across the river. The river is quite shallow there. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Have the Japanese been known to have gone 
swimming in the Colorado River and to have crossed the river to the 
California side? 

Mr. James. I don't know about going across to the California side. 

Mr. CosTELLO. I had a newspaper article which I believe was sent 
into one of the local papers from a paper in Imperial Valley, indicating 
that the Japanese have been known to have gone swimming in the 
Colorado River and crossed to the California side, and to some extent 
attempt to molest the white people who might have been swimming 
also in the river on the California side. 

Mr. James. For the sake of the record I would like to point out 
that there were, at that time, still approximately 1,000 workmen em- 
ployed by the Del E. Webb Construction Co. in completing the camp. 

Some of these workmen were Negroes. They had been gathered 
from all over the United States. Plumbers were employed from as 
far away as New York City and obviously they were not the very best 
type of workmen, because desert conditions are quite tough and the 
better class of workmen were working here on the coast. 

There was no check to my knowledge ever made by any of the in- 
vestigative agencies of these workmen who were working on the 
project. 

Now, this type of bridge fire is very similar to a series of fires that 
occurred in the Imperial Vafley, in Niland, Calif., and elsewhere, 
where railroad trestles were burned and attempts were made, appar- 
ently, to sabotage trains. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9155 

lu those instances, however, there were no train wrecks. But tliis 
one at Poston followed the general pattern of the so-called Niland 
trestle burning. 

Air. Steedman. Were any arrests made after this wreck? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the investigatmg officers come to the conclu- 
sion it was sabotage? 

Mr. James. Definitely came to the conclusion it was sabotage. 

Mr. Steedman. Had the Japanese been in the habit of camping or 
picnicking in this general area along the Colorado River? 

Mr. James. They had gone down to swim, yes. Now, as I say, 
I am not in possession of any facts whatsoever to show that they had 
ever crossed the river; that they were ever seen in the neighborhood 
of the railroad bridge or the highway. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the F. B. I. or any other investigating agency 
ask the project director, Mr. Head, to ascertain how many Japanese 
were out of the camp on the night of the wreck? 

Mr. James. I believe they did, and I know that Mr. Head, to the 
best of his ability, tried to find out who was away and who wasn't. 
However, that is an enormous job. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Head would be dependent on the block 
managers for that information; would he not? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Steedman. And don't you believe that is a very poor source 
of information? 

Mr. James. That was the only one he had available, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. MuNDT. In the similar type of bridge fires that you say took 
place in the Imperial Valley, was that at a time when there were a 
great many Japanese living in the Imperial Valley? 

Mr. James. Those fires occurred before evacuation. 

Mr. MuNDT. And did a large number of Japanese live in that 
vicinity? 

Mr. James. I don't know. I know there were prior to evacuation 
several thousand Japanese living in the Imperial Valley and in 
counties contiguous or adjacent to Imperial County. 

Mr. MuNDT. Were they ever able to find out who started the fires 
in the Imperial Valley? 

Mr. James. No. To my knowledge those bridge disasters have 
never been solved. However, in fairness to the Japanese, I would 
like to point out that whoever is responsible for that — the burning 
of the trestle near Earp, Calif., must have been in possession of infor- 
mation from Phoenix, Ariz., that this special trainload of young 
aviators was leaving Phoenix. 

It would require quite a complicated system of espionage — a 
complicated system of tie-ups. 

Mr. MuNDT. How far is it from Phoenix to Parker? 

Mr. James. About 230 miles. No, I will take that back — it is 
185 miles. 

Mr. MuNDT. Do the Japanese from the Poston center ever get 
into Phoenix. 

Mr. James. They at that time had never been near Phoenix. 

Mr. MuNDT. But they were getting away as far as Parker? 

Mr. James. They were getting away as far as Parker, yes. 



9156 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. CosTELLO. Had there been any newspaper publicity regarding- 
the departure of those aviators from Phoenix? 

Mr. James. None whatsoever to my Ivuowledge. 

Mr. Steedman. Have the Japanese hving in Phoenix been moved 
to relocation centers? 

Mr. James. No. The line ran through a section of Phoenix. Glen- 
dale, Ariz., was omitted from the evacuation zone so there were actu- 
ally Japanese in Glendale, Ariz., and in certain sections of Phoenix — 
a few, I believe. 

Mr. MuNDT. You mentioned yesterday that one of the evacuees, 
or maybe more than one of the evacuees, from Poston, had been trans- 
ferred to Glendale. 

Mr. James. Yes. 

Mr. MuNDT. Had any of those transfei-s been made prior to this 
train wreck? 

Mr. James. No. In this case that was this man Seta that we talked 
about 3'^esterday who was removed for his own safety to Glendale. 

Mr. Steedman. Is it your information that there is quite a large 
colonj^ of Japanese living in and around Phoenix? 

Mr. James. There are several hundred — primarilj^ in the Glendale 
area. ' 

Mr. Steedman. And their status has not been affected by the evac- 
uation of the Japanese from the west coast, has it? 

Mr. James. That is correct. They were outside of the zone set up 
by General DeWitt. 
• Mr. Steedman. Agaui quotmg from the memorandum: 

EVACUEE ATTITUDES TOWARD THE ADMINISTRATION 

All members of the project administration are somewhat in the familiar "gold 
fish bowl" position in relation to the evacuees. This has been accentuated at 
Poston bv the formal pohcy laid down by John Collier, Commissioner of Indian 
Affairs, that the Caucasian staff is at Poston "to serve the evacuees." 

Friction between Japanese and Caucasians develops — from the evacuee, stand- 
point — along several sources: 

(a) Lack of materials to develop work projects. 

(b) Administrative personnel at the project which is sometimes inferior in educa- 
tion and (at least, judged by the Japanese themselves) inferior in ability to evacuees 
serving in minor capacities under particular administrators. 

(c) An attitude, in some quarters of the Poston personnel, which regards Japan- 
ese as Indians and treats them as wards of the Government, i. e., paternally. 

(d) A growing consciousness on the part of many evacuees that they are often 
being used as human guinea pigs by doctrinaires, anthropologists, and well-mean- 
ing social-service workers attached to the project staff. 

As a result, there are two major trends in mass thinking which will directly 
affect Poston during the autumn and winter months just ahead. 

Is the information I just read true and correct, to the best of your 
knowledge? 

Mr. James. I would say it is basically true. You have a difficult 
problem. For example, in the school system there, you will have a 
number of white women who have been brought out of retirement, 
and who, perhaps, have not been overly successful in the field of 
education. They are paid on a standard of teachers' wages, com- 
mensurate with what teachers are paid outside and beside them there 
will be working Japanese teachers who hold Phi Beta Kappa keys 
and receiving $16 and $19 a month — men and women who are ex- 
tremely well educated. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9157 

In my opinion naturally tliero would be a foolinp: of contempt, 
perhaps, for someone who had been brought out of retirement. I can 
see where there would be plenty of cause for friction. 

Mr. Steedman (continuing to read from the memorandum): 

CASE HISTORY 

The duly elected community council of Poston I, chairmaned by Dr. Y. Ischi- 
maru, and largely at his prompting, has developed a number of committees which 
in the ensuing weeks will "investigate project management and project finances.'* 

Mr. H. G. Palmer, project procurement officer, reports that on or about August 
25, he was approached by Dr. Ischimaru who insisted that he be permitted to 
bring in his own aceovuiting and purchasing experts to investigate why the project 
is unable to requisition supplies more speedily. 

Then in parentheses: 

Source of information : Mr. Palmer, and Mr. Henry Smith fiscal officers. 

Air. Steedman. Is that which I just read correct? 

!Mr, James. Substantuilly so, Mr. Steedman. I think that this ia 
another case where, because of leadership at the top in Washington, 
the project officials were up against a very, very difficult job of ad- 
ministration. 

I happen to know this particular case quite well where the Japanese, 
believing, in perfectly good faith, that they were at Poston and the 
Caucasians were there to serve them, naturally felt that they had a 
perfect right to investigate project management and to actively 
participate in it. 

Mr. Steedman. Did the investigation, suggested in what I just read, 
take place? 

Mr. James. I believe they attempted to, but Mr. Smith, being a 
particularly strong-minded man said: "No" emphatically and I don't 
think in his department there was any investigation. 

Mr. Steedman. Was there an investigation in the other depart- 
ments? 

Mr. James. I believe there were. I am not acquiainted with what 
departments were investigated. 

Mr. Steedman. Was a similar committee set up in Poston II and 
Poston III? 

Mr. James. No. This was in Poston I. 

Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese decided it was about time to 
investigate the project? 

Mr. James. That is right. Poston No. IIj I would like to point out 
as I did yesterday, the people from Monterey County, Calif., have 
given us very, very little trouble. The vast majority of them have 
been e.\tremelj" loyal and extremely helpful even though they have, 
perhaps, the toughest row^ of all of them, coming from the cool Cali- 
fornia coast to these high desert temperatures. 

Mr. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum): 

Case History 

Mr. Saburo Kido, president of the Japanese American Citizens League, and a 
resident of Poston II, has publicly gone on record as stating that the Japanese 
American Citizens League believes that, in view of the war and the demands that 
are being made upon American manpower, that "most of the project administra- 
tive jobs can be filled by loyal Japanese." 



9158 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Then following that paragraph there is in parentheses: 
Source of information: Mr. Kido, himself. 

Is that information correct? 

Mr. James. That is substantially true. I know Mr. Kido quite 
well and I would say that statement approximates his views. 

In September of last year, Mr. Kido, at that time I believe, was 
perfectly reconciled to his people being permanently relocated in 
Poston and other centers for the duration of the war and that they 
felt, as the Army and as other branches of the armed services required 
the needs of white men — the Caucasians — that they should be replaced 
by loyal Japanese and the Japanese American Citizens League, 
although it represents a minority of the American-born Japanese 
citizens, was doing a very fuie job. 

Mr. MuNDT. To the best of your knowledge, Kido was a loyal 
Japanese, was he not? 

Mr. James. He was, to the best of my knowledge, and extremely 
helpful in the administration. 

Mr. MuNDT. Let me digress from this particular line of testimony 
for a moment: Have you any knowledge by which you can give the 
committee an approximation of the number of Japanese in the 
United States who are not subject to the evacuation order and who 
are still living normal lives and in the commimities where they have 
always been? 

Mr. James. It would have to be a guess, Congressman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. May I interrupt? I believe there were about 
25,000 Japanese in the country outside of the 3 Pacific Coast States. 

Mr. James. That would be my approximation — somewhere between 
15,000 and 20,000. 

Mr. MuNDT. Is there any special surveillance of them? 

Mr. CosTELLO. Outside of the coastal area, there has been no at- 
tempt to remove them from their homes or businesses. The only 
ones who would be under any sort of surveillance would be those who 
might be looked upon as possible enemy agents, the same as you 
might find among Germans or Italians. No attempt has been made 
to remove them from other cities such as Washington, New York, or 
wherever they are. 

Mr. MuNDT. Are the Japanese, Mr. James, in these detention cen- 
ters or relocation centers, permitted to correspond with Japanese 
living normal lives in the areas where evacuation has not taken place? 

Mr. James. Yes; they are. There is no mail censorship whatso- 
ever in any of the centers. They can write to the coast to friends 
who are there — friends of any race and write them anywhere in the 
continental United States. And for that matter I presume outside 
of the continental United States subject to censorship at the border. 

Mr. MuNDT. Phoenix is not in the evacuated area, is it? 

Mr. James. The line ran right through Phoenix. A portion of it 
was. 

Mr. MuNDT. You mean in the city of Phoenix there are Japanese 
living on one side of a street while those on the other side were 
evacuated? 

Mr. James. That is correct. In fact in Glendale there was a very 
unusual situation arose— Glendale, Ariz. The line of demarcation 
made it impossible for the Japanese residing in Phoenix, who had 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9159 

children, to send their children to the Glendale school. They had to 
be sent to Peoria, Ariz., some 4 or 5 miles away because it was on the 
WTong side of the line. 

Mr. MuNDT. At least hypothetically, it would have been per- 
fectly possible for a Japanese citizen with subversive inclinations, 
living in Phoenix, to have written to a subversive Japanese in the 
Poston project that this troop train was leaving on a certain date and 
none of the Caucasian personnel would have learned anything about 
that transfer of information? 

Air. James. Yes. In a hypothetical case you can work out all sorts 
of hypotheses along that line. Yes; it was possible for a Japanese 
residing in Poston, if you want to put another hypothetical case in, 
because there was a great deal of money within the city to have actually 
put up the mone}' for sabotage to be conducted by someone else— 
perhaps a man working for Del Webb Construction Co, 

Air. jMundt. But about the only h^^potheses we could establish 
which would make that seem improbable is that the Japanese are not 
interested in sabotaging our troop trains? 

Mr. James. That is right. 

Mr. MuNDT. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. Up until the time you left Poston, had the project 
received any evacuees from Hawaii? 

Mr. James. None, Mr. Steedman, except those who were caught on 
the coast when evacuation took place. 

There were some who were attending school in the south here, or 
who were living here or over here on visits, but they to my knowledge, 
up until the time I had left there, there had been no movement of 
Japanese from the Territory of Hawaii into Poston. 

Mr. Steedman.' Have the officials at Poston received any informa- 
tion from Washington indicating that evacuees from Hawaii would be 
quartered at Poston? 

Mr. James. Not until the time I had left. There had been some 
discussion late last fall when General Emmons indicated that a. few- 
Japanese, number undisclosed, were to be evacuated from Hawaii. 

Mr. Steedman. But up until the time you left Poston, had the 
project received any evacuees from South American countries? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. Again there had been rumor 
and talking on that — -that we might possibly receive sorne. 

Mr. Steedman. That is Japanese who were living in Brazil or 
Bolivia were being evacuated and sent to the United States? 

Mr. James. That is correct. There has been a movement of 
Haw^aiian Japanese to other centers. There is a camp in Arkansas 
which has received Japanese from Hawaii. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to return to the South American 
Japanese for a moment. Have you seen any correspondence at 
Poston indicating that subversive Japanese from South American 
countries would be quartered at Poston? 

Mr. James. I have not. 

Mr. Steedman. I continue to read from the memorandum: 

CASE HISTORY 

Between August 15 and September 15, two nien and two women from the 
Rochdale Cooperative Institute of New York City were brought to Poston under 
a contract between the Indian Service and Rochdale to lecture on the operation 
of a consumer cooperative system of stores and factories. 



9160 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Arriving in Poston, the Rochdale representatives intensively worked the field. 

Upon the advice of the ,' Japanese minister, these cooperative 

experts in lectures and in written publicity — both in English and in Japanese — 
stressed the point that Issei were not being represented in Poston politics, nor 
in the economic program of the project but that this would be remedied if — 

and I might add at this point that the word "if" is underscored, 

they supported their (the Rochdale) program for consumer cooperatives. 

On or about September 6, the Rochdale people shipped in from New York 
headquarters three short reel colored films dealing with cooperatives. These 
were included in the usual public showing of movies for the benefit of the people 
of Poston. 

At the first public meeting, an audience of approximately 1,500 sat silently 
through the first cooperative film, mildly demonstrated throughout the second, 
but raised such furor during the showing of the third film that the entire exhibi- 
tion had to be called off. 

The films were not subsequently shown. 

Nevertheless, in view of a War Relocation Authority directive that all projects 
must accept a form of consumer cooperative for the operation of the evacuees' 
own stores, shops and factories — Poston is proceeding to install such a system, 
even though it has not been put to a test vote by the people. 

Then following that paragraph in parentheses: 

Sources of additional information — copies of petition form in Japanese and 
English circulated by Rochdale people — statements from R. G. P'ister, chief, 
temporary administration of Poston Community Enterprises. 

Mr. Steedman. Can you tell us whether the informat'on I have 
just read from the memorandum in question is true and correct? 

Mr. James. It is correct. The operation of their own stores, 
canteens, barber shops, shoe-repair shops, and beauty shops — that 
is their own enterprises, where they have put up their own money, 
the W. R. A. insisted that a form of consumer cooperatives be estab- 
lished in their stead. 

To further that cause the Japanese were opposing the cooperative 
idea. Most of the Japanese, apparently, wanted the operation under 
a trust agreement wherein there would be a white administrator rep- 
resenting the Government and acting as an umpire and arbiter and 
overseer. They wanted that form, but this W. R. A. directive em- 
phatically stated that a form of consumer cooperative must be estab- 
lished, so to educate the Japanese as to the- value of consumer coop- 
eratives, these four people were sent out from Rochdale Institute and 
to the best of my knowledge, spent a month there. 

Mr. Steedman. Were these four people from Rochdale paid by the 
Government? 

Mr. James. They were paid by the Government; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much they were paid? 

Mr. James. To the best of my knowledge, it was around — some- 
where between $2,500 and $3,000 for the month they spent there. 
That is collectively for the four people. 

In addition to that, there were one or two experts in consumer credit 
unions who were there at the same time, endeavoring to instruct the 
Japanese as to the value of that type of organization. 

Mr. Steedman, Were those people from a private organization? 

Mr. James. I believe they were. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you loiow the name of that private organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. James. Well, it is a New York City organization, Mr. Steed- 
man. I can't think of the name of it now. 



' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9161 

Mr. Stekdiman. Do you recall the names of the four representatives 
from the Roch(hile Cooperative Institute? 

Mr. James. There were a ^[r. and Mrs. Perkins and Aliss Arnold. 
I can't recall the naino of the fourth one. 

Mr. Steedmax. Do you have the first names of Air. and Mrs. 
Perkins? 

Mr. James. No; I haven't. Reference to the Poston Daily 
Chronicle of those dates would give you that information. They 
lectured about the camp for a period of about at least a month. They 
met opposition because most of our Japanese are extremely brand- 
conscious. They don't want to buy anything except branded mer- 
chandise. 

At that time there was no rationing, of course, and the stores were 
selling canned goods, cigarettes, and such things and they did not 
want to buy the consumer-type brands because they didn't have 
confidence in them. 

Mr. EnERHARTER. Were the two credit-union men also paid by 
the Government? 

Mr. James. They were paid by the Government, too. 

Mr. Eberharter. Do you know how much tliey were paid? 

Mr. JAArES. No; I don't know. 

Mr. MuNDT. I am not just clear about this matter yet. Had there 
been auy demand on the part of the Japanese for consumer coopera- 
tives of any kind? 

Mr. James. Except from one source: From the so-called Christian 

m.inister, ^, whose name I asked to be left out yesterday 

because he is being investigated, and the group — — ^, formerly 

of Bakersfield, Calif., had formed with the help of — ■ ^, this 

Nori food king from Japan. 

They had formed an adult study group to study consumer coop- 
eratives. I was suspicious because — • ,^ according to his 

own admissions, was a rugged individualist who had come up through 
the competitive system of Japan and why he should be interested in 
consumer credit unions was a puzzle to me. 

It became apparent that ^ and ,^ and 

their group, through their influence with Commissioner Collier, were 
endeavoring to secure control over the economic life of the camp. 

Mr. MtTNDT. How large was the group you are speaking of? 

Mr. James. A group of about 20 people. Later on it developed 

that ^ organized it on a block-to-block basis. That is, 

he had the representative for the proconsumer operative working on 
the block- basis. 

Mr. MrxDT. Did they communicate directly with Mr. Collier? 

Mr. James. ^ quite frequently wrote letters to Com- 
missioner Collier. 

Mr. MuNDT. But there was no request for a consumer's cooperative 
movement that came from the project? 

Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. May I cany this on a bit 
further, Mr. Steedman? 

Mr. CosTELLO. You do not want the name of the minister or tht' 
merchant to be used? 

Mr. James. They can be referred to as a "Christian minister" or 
as a "wealthy Japanese." 

' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costellc. 



9162 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Indicative of the attitude that the majority of the camp felt, 
particularly the American-born, about 1 month after the visit of 

these Rochdale people, ^ succeeded in calling an electioQ 

under the provisions of these W. E-. A. orders — an election for dele- 
gates to a temporary community cooperative congress, which was to 
set up the machinery whereby this consumer cooperative could take 
over the already successful community enterprises which were operat- 
ing under these shops on a trust-agreement basis. 

For your information the gross, the monthly gross, on these various 
enterprises operated by the Japanese was around $90,000 a month. 

This election was held and the candidates that were put up were 

largely ^ men. In both instances this was only one man 

from every block. And as I say, they are the ones who more and 
more have been taking over the control of the community enterprises, 
where, up \mtil March of 1943, the working personnel of this sizable 
merchandising organization was. American-born Japanese headed by 
Fred Ota. They are now being replaced by aliens. 

The present general manager of Poston community enterprises, 
soon to be "Poston cooperative enterprises," is Mr. S. Y. Katow, 
formerly a director and general manager of the Asia Co. of Los 
Angeles. 

To my knowledge Mr. Katow is a very loyal Issei. However, he 

is directly under the influence and under the direction of the 

,^ because ^ is chairman of the new board of 



trustees which has been elected by his own cooperative congress for 
the operation of the Poston cooperative enterprises. 

Mr. Steedman. Have the cooperative enterprises been turned over 
to the consumer council? 

Mr. James. The community enterprises, operating formerly on a 
trust agreement, are now in the process of being turned over to the 
Poston cooperative enterprises. 

Mr. Steedman. And is that in line with the Rochdale plan? 

Mr. James. In line with the Rochdale plan, yes. Whether they 
will use the Rochdale merchandise or not, I am not sure. I am rather 
inclined to doubt it in view of the opposition of even the alien Japanese 
— I mean even the pro-cooperative Japanese. 

Mr. Steedman. Is there any historical background for consumer 
cooperative organizations in the Japanese culture or history? 

Mr. James. Not this type of consumer cooperative. They are, so 
far as production is concerned. They were quite successful on the 
west coast but they consisted largely of families. Our Japanese are 
very peculiar. They are just as they are in the old country in the 
suspicions that they have against one another. They are a reticent 
people. They don't confide in each other. Even the men don't 
confide very much with one another. They tell one another no more 
than they think the other one knows unless they have some par- 
ticular reason, and your business organizations are largely on a family 
basis. At least they were here in California. 

We witnessed a number of farm cooperatives which were small, but 
they were producing cooperatively largely on a family basis. And 
where there may have been isolated instances of retail cooperatives, 
again they were on a family basis. 

' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9163 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to call your attention to a sentence 
in the niemorandiini to the effect that the Japanese "raised a furor 
durinsr the shownie: of the third film, and the entire exhibition had to be 
called off." 

Apparently the Japanese didn't like the idea of cooperatives; is that 
correct? 

Mr. James. Definitely. The meetings held by the Perkins and 
Miss Arnold were veiy fully attended. The Japanese were very luke- 
warm to the Rochdale plan of consumer cooperatives or a consumer 
cooperative. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Does the Rochdale Institute supply commodities 
for sale in the cooperatives? 

Mr. James. They have, I believe, a tie-in with various consumer 
sources of supply — consumer-cooperative sources of supply. 

They have a certain cigarette that they handle, with a brand on it 
and similarly in canned goods. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But those commodities are not the standard brands? 

Mr. James. That is right. These people, for example, are sold on 
Buick automobiles. They are extremely brand conscious in their 
prejudice against certain types of food and merchandise. They 
want Del Monte canned goods. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Because they are accustomed to certain quality 
under brand labels? 

Mr. James. Yes^ sir; and they won't buy anything else. 

Mr. MuNDT. Did this quartet of people from the Rochdale move- 
ment come to Poston with the permission of Mr. Collier or Mr. Myer, 
or both? 

Mr. James. Well, I imagine that the thing met with the approval 
of Mr. Dillon Myer, because Mr. Myer, 1 know, had drawTi up this 
directive which expressly provides for the establishment of consumer 
cooperatives, and insisted that that was the only form it should take. 

Mr. MuNDT. Apparently then the cooperative sponsors at Poston 
first contacted Mr. Collier and then Mr. Collier contacted Mr. Myer? 

Mr. James. That is correct. You see there is no provision under 
the W. R. A. set-up for private enterprise to be practiced at the 
centers, although in my experience a great many Japanese would like 
to have a form of private enterprise. They w^ould like to be' self- 
supporting. 

Mr, CosTELLO. The whole effect then of this transfer from the 
trust agreement arrangement over to the cooperative program has 
been to destroy the existing situation and change the personnel and 
the management? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. CosTELLO. And it means that alien thinking and alien control 
actually comes into it instead of the loyal American control W'hich 
existed previously? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MuNDT. Has it also had the effect of switching over to a 
different brand of merchandise or a different type of merchandise? 

Mr. James. Of course since rationing went into effect in this 
country, gentlemen, it has been extremely difficult for the Japanese 
to secure merchandise for their small stores. Certainly they can 
secure nothing that O. P. A. has on a ration basis because rationed 



9164 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

goods are not permitted to these Japanese. That is with the exception 
of clothing. They are still able to get some clothing. 

There is a tremendous problem out there on shoes. We have an 
awful time getting around that coupon No. 17 business, but special 
arrangements have been made with the O. P. A. on that. 

Mr. MuNDT. You indicated the Japanese like to buy Del Monte 
canned goods? 

Mr. James. I mentioned that as onl}?^ one item. 

Mr. MuNDT. Doesn't the consumer cooperative sell Del Monte 
canned goods? 

Mr. James. Can't get Del Monte canned goods out there. 

Mr. MuNDT. They don't show any special preference for any other 
brands? 

Mr. James. I happen to be speaking particularly of the Monterey 
County crowd which I know quite well and, by and large, they are 
sold on Del Monte goods. They know the brand and have extreme 
faith in it. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to clear up one matter. The Roch- 
dale Institute does not sell regular brand names, do they? 

Mr. James. No. Most of these consumer cooperatives, as I under- 
stand them, sell unbranded merchandise or merchandise which bears 
the brand of the cooperative. 

I^Ir. Steedman. As a matter of fact Japanese are opposed to the 
system of unbranded merchandise? 

Mr. James. That is right, definitely. 

Mr. Eber barter. There is one thing I would like to clear up: 
Was the opposition to the establishment of a cooperative system itself, 
or was it to the result which would come about — that they would 
have to purchase particular types of merchandise? 

Mr. James. The Japanese never favored a semitype of cooperative — - 
a cooperative wdiere there would be at the top a Caucasian supervisor. 

Mr. Eberharter. Then they really favored a cooperative system? 

Mr. James. Yes; broadly. 

^1r. Eberharter. Broadly? But there were certain differences of 
opinion as to how it should be operated? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Eberharter. But the main opposition, I take it from your 
statement, is that they did not want to take the particular brand of 
goods which they would have had to take had this Rochdale plan 
been adopted? 

Mr. James. That is correct. And they were opposed to it — I judge 
the Nisei were opposed to it because they were suspicious and fearful 

of — ^ because, particularly because of the important 

position he had occupied during the Boston trouble from November 14 
to November 25. 

Mr. CosTELLo. Was it because of the possibility of these two or 
three Japanese who were instrumental in bringing about this change 
might have gained control of the cooperative and become the sole 
beneficiaries of any benefits that might have accrued out of it? 

Mr. James. No; I don't think so. 

Mr. CosTELLO. You don't think it would develop into a situation 
such as exists in Japan, where three or four families control the entire 
wealth of the country? 

> Name stricken from the record at the re ii:est of Thairman rostoUo. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9165 

Mr. Jamks. You would have tremendous political power, whoever 
controls the cooperative would have tremendous political power. He 
could control a lot of things in the camp. 

Mr. CosTELLO. They would not gain financial control or benefits 
from it, but would have political control of tlie people themselves? 

Mr. James. That is correct; yes. 1 bring this out to show you the 
background struggle that has been going on in the camp, just as yes- 
terday I cited the various steps leading to the trouble at Poston where 
an attempt in that direction was made to destroy the American-born 
Japanese. 

Here there is another movement on the other side through the 
economic channels of attempting to control their economic life. 

Mr. MuNDT. Just another procedure in the pattern of certain 
Japanese to break down the Americanism of the Japanese at Poston? 

Mr. James. That is a hypothesis that I would agree with, I think 
the pattern is there and I think it exists at every project. 

Mr. CosTELLO. The leaders in the camp wdio are anti-American, 
have seized upon every available opportunity they could find to use 
it as a medium 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Whereby they would gain control of the people 
there? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Air. CosTELLO. And subvert their loyalty? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; and to build up power. 

Mr. Eberharter. I might make the observation here that I got 
the impression that this cooperative movement came about because 
of a directive from Washington? 

Mr. James. It did. It very definitely did and they took advantage 
of it, Congressman. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is contrary to the theory, isn't it, that it 
is the idea of this certam group of Japanese to gam control? 

Mr. James. Well, let me make that point clear. 

Mr. P^BERHARTER. That is what I would like to know. 

Mr. James. The plan was set up by Washington, Congressman. 

Mr. Eberharter. That is what we want clear. 

Mr. James. Definitely. This plan was set up for the establish- 
ment of consumer cooperatives at Poston following that and every 
other center cooperative was established by that W. R. A. directive. 

Mr. MuNDT. Under Myer or under Eisenhower? 

Mr. James. Under Eisenhower — Milton S. Eisenhower. 

The ^ nnd his group were the only- -that was the 

only group that pushed this plan at Poston because the Indian Service 
had originally adopted a plan similar to those that they use in various 
reserA'ations for the o])eration and maintenance of communit}^ stores; 
that is, where the Indian agents will actually be the supervisors or the 
monitor of this particular store and where the people will share in the 
profits is in dividends, but where Uiere will be at the top control, 
semir-ontrol by this governmental agency. 

That was the system that we had set up at Poston and which had 
apparently been acceptable to the people. 

Air. Eberharter. Then this directive had been in existence for 
some tiTi">r>? 

Mame stricken from t'^e rec )rd at the re juest of Chairman Costello. 
62626— 43— vol. 15 22 



9166 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. James. Yes. it had been in existence, to the best of my knowl- 
edge, since June 1942, approximately 1 month before Milton S. Eisen- 
hower resigned and Dillon Myer took his place. 

Mr. Eberharter. It is not very clear in my mind jet. I don't 
know whether you want to follow it any further but I don't see any- 
thing we could deduce from what has been presented to us here with 
respect to this cooperative thing. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to develop that a little further. 

Mr. Eberharter. I wish you would, Mr. Steedman. 

Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. John Collier been interested in the 
Rochdale movement for some time? 

Mr. James. I don't know. I believe he has. I think he is a close 
friend of the head of the Rochdale Institute in New York City. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you beheve the ^ was familiar 

with Mr. Collier's interest in the Rochdale movement? 

Mr. James. Yes; I do. One of ^ first steps when he 

came to Poston was to establish by mail, and by personal interview 
whenever Commissioner Collier came in, a close relationship with 
Commissioner Collier. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you think —_ ^ suggested the 

sending to Poston of these Rochdale representatives? 

Mr. James. I do. I think it is quite possible to produce correspond- 
ence showing ^ actually recommended that cooperative 

experts be sent from New York to lecture before the Japanese in 
Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words ,^ Imowing that Com- 
missioner Collier was interested in the cooperative movement, sug- 
gested to him that he send representatives to the Poston center for 
the purpose of setting up a Rochdale plan in Poston? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; I believe that. 

Mr. Steedman. And these representatives were sent to Poston 
following that? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. And as a result this plan has been put into effect? 

Mr. James. It luls. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know — ^ intent or purpose in 

setting up the Rochdale plan in Poston center? 

Mr. James. All I know is the immediate effect. Here is a man who 
emerged from Poston's general strike or disturbance, on the one hand, 
as a powerful political leader, and paralleling that he emerges as the 
chairman of the dominant economic factor in the life of Poston through 
the cooperative enterprises. 

Mr. Steedman. This change put — • ^ and his group in 

control of the cooperative enterprises? 

Mr. James. Definitely, yes. 

Mr. Steedman. And the selling of this plan to Collier virtually 

turned over this $90,000 a year business to the Issei and to the 

- — — — ^ group? 

Mr. James. It did; yes. 

Mr. Steedman. I would like to continue reading from the memo- 
randum the paragraph entitled, "The Absence of Sm-veillance": 

Because of the liberalism of the Colorado River project administration, with 
its emphasis upon social values, evacuees are under no surveillance. In the 

3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



un-americajST propaganda activities 9167 

absence of boundaries, they are permitted to wander at will, without military 
.police escorts, anywhere to the east, west, or south of Poston. To the north, 
a military police guard post effectively checks and examines all in-bound and out- 
boimd traffic. 

Because of the size of the project and the number of evacuees lioused, only the 
most carefully supervised census could determine whether any evacuees are miss- 
ing. 

It is not unreasonable to believe that there are at least 200 evacuees in Poston 
who in the past or at the present time have engas;ed in espionage for the Japanese 
P^nipire. This would roughly tie in with the Federal Bureau of Investigation's 
own estimates that, subsequent to December 7, 1941, for every Japanese agent 
arrested, one or more unknown agents escaped. Who these possible suspects 
are, what, if any, subversive activities they are now engaged in, what outside 
contacts they have, and to what extent they can engage in external subject, are, 
of course, unsolved. 

However, it is the writer's personal belief that any creditable information cannot 
be developed from — 

(1) The Nisei or loyal Americans, because of present material and psychological 
trends within the project. 

(2) The former Federal Bureau of Investigation Japanese informers — who were 
never reliable sources of news in the first place — and who now are in the unhappy 
position of living side by side with relatives of familj- heads, perhaps, interned in 
Bismark or Santa Fe. 

(3) The so-called Japanese Christian ministers — especially those who were 
trained in the American Methodist schools in Japan. 

And then following that paragraph in parentheses: 

For some fine double talk in English, examine the files of the Poston Christian 
Weekly church organ now in War Relocation Administration information files. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the information I have just read from the memo- 
randum true to the best of your knowledge? 

Air. James. Yes, sir; for the period, Mr. Steedman, from approxi- 
mately the middle of May to September 15, 1942. 

Mr. Steedman. Has the project administration tightened up on 
the Japanese aliens insofar as restricting them to the camp is con- 
cerned? 

Mr. James. It has now. 

Mr. Steedman. In other words, they cannot come and go at will 
at the present time? 

Mr. James. That is correct. As far as getting into Parker, Ariz., 
it has developed within the last 2 months. Prior to that time they 
were. 

•Following the strike and disturbance at Poston; that is roughly, 
from November through to the spring of the year, groups were per- 
mitted to go into Parker just as they had in the period from May 
through to the middle of September, but since March, in view of the 
trouble that lias occurred at Parker, Ariz., very few have gotten in. 

Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese aliens wander around outside of 
the camp area in the desert without a pass from the project adminis- 
tration? 

Mr. James. Yes,, sir. 

Mr. Steedman. At the present time? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir. The place is so vast there, so huge, there is no 
way of keeping them locked up. 

\iv. Steedman. And they are only restricted insofar as the city 
of Parker is conccnied? 

Mr. James. That is right. 



9168 UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. Do they go to the Colorado River without a pass 
from the. project administration? 

Mr. James. They can. The bomidary line of the Colorado River 
project is the Colorado River itself. That is the western boundary 
line. 

The eastern boundary line is the road running from Parker to Poston. 

Mr. Steedman. And they can move back and forth freely between 
the three camps without a pass from the project administration? 

Mr. James. That is correct. 

Mr. Costello. I notice the memorandum refers to 200 Japanese at 
Poston who were former agents of the Japanese Government. 

Mr. James. I would revise that and say, if you say "agents" and 
include those who engage in propaganda work or who had been 
members of the various types of societies mentioned yesterday, I 
would say probably 600. 

Mr. Costello. In other words at Poston there are possibly 600 
definitely known subversive Japanese? 

Mr. James. Congressman Costello, I believe there are that many. 

Mr. Costello. And if their records were mvestigated, they would 
show they had affiliations with subversive activities? 

Mr. James. If you start with the number that were returned from 
the internment camps; may I go into that? 

Mr. Steedman.- Go ahead. 

Mr. James. Yesterday I said to the best of my knowledge 365 had 
been returned to us. I checked the number last night and I find there 
were 195 that were returned. The 365 that I referred to yesterday 
were those who applied for repatriation to Japan. If you take the 
195 that were returned from Bismarck and Santa Fe where the estab- 
lished investigative agencies — theO. N. I. or the F. B. I. orG-2 — had 
felt there was sufficient evidence to send those men to concentration 
camps for the duration of the war, plus others who have since been 
brought to light at the relocation centers, 600 would not be an un- 
reasonable estimate of those against whom cases could definitely be 
proven that they are dangerous to the country at large. 

Mr. Costello. The figure of 600 would include the 195 from Bis- 
marck and Santa Fe? 

Mr. James. I would include them on the list; yes. 

Mr. Costello. And would the 600 include the 365 that you refer 
to as having requested repatriation? 

Mr. James. No; that would be in addition. 

Mr. Costello. That would be an additional group? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; who certainly should be segi^egatcd by all 
means. 

Mr. Costello. Let us make this clear. Some of the 365 might be 
included in the 600? 

Mr. James. They might be, now that you mention it, there prob- 
ably would be some. There probably would be some who would bo 
included in that figure. 

Mr. Costello. But there are at least 600 who have the background 
that would indicate definitely subversive tendencies? 

Mr. James. I would stay with that figure; a minimum of 600. 

Mr. Costello. That is all. 

Mr. Steedman. T quote from the memorandum the paragraph 
entitled: 



UN-.-yviERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9169 

Potential Saboteurs and Subversive Elements at Poston 

If the Issei sjucceed in gaining control of the economic life of Poston through 
investment of their funds in Poston Consumer Cooperative Enterprises, a major 
opportunity is presented for internal sabotage; that is, turning hundreds of erst- 
while loya! Americans of Japanese descent into persons of pronounced racial 
antipathy toward Caucasians in general, and to extend this further toward a mass 
acceptance of pro- Axis sentiments. 

There are at Poston several evacuees of great financial power and ability and 
there is nothing in the record thus far to prove that they are loyal (or for that 
matter disloyal) to the United States. 

CASE HISTORY 

^ age about .50 years, is reported to be the "Nori" food king of 

Japan. Since about 1920 he, by his own admission, has secured a virtual monop- 
oly of the manufacture and sale of this seaweed product in the islands of the 
Empire. In 1941, according to his story, he came to the United States, secured 
a directorship in the Asahi Trading Co. of Los Angeles, and was exploring the 
possibility of developing a market for his product on the west coast when the 
war occurred. 

At the present time, ^ jg living with the ■ — -3, a 

Christian minister, formerly of Bakersfield, Calif. 

With — ^ 3 ]^g lias headed a group, largely of Issei, who since June 1, 

has campaigned for a consumer cooperative in Poston. 

^, by his own admission, is worth in the neighborhood of 

$5,000,000. Although his funds in this country are supposedly "frozen," he 
seems to have sufficient ability to muster money for — ^. 

It is difficult to see how ^. by his own admission a lifelong 

Japanese industrialist used to highly competitive business, should become such 
a staunch advocate of consumer cooperatives. It is easier to learn how he 
dislikes and disapproves of American manners and customs accepted by many 
of 3 Nisei parishioners. 

Mr. Steedman. Is the information in this particular paragraph that 
I have just read true and correct? 

Mr. James. Yes; concerning this ^. 

Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not ^ has 

requested repatriation? 

^Tr. James. I believe he has not requested repatriation, I don't 
know. 

Mr. CosTELLO. But he is only here as a visitor? 

Mr. James. He is here as a visitor; yes. 

Mr. CosTELLO. So such a request would not be necessary? 

Mr. James. It is true, as that report states, that ^ has 

been and still is to the best of my knowledge, rooming with the 

Mr. .Costello. As far as the war is concerned, as soon as the war 
is over, ^ would definitely have to return to Japan? 

Mr. James. Yes, sir; that is right. He would have to go back to 
Japan. 

Mr. Steedman. This memorandum states that ^ was 

a director in the Asahi Trading Co. of Los Angeles? 

Mr. James. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that the Japanese who has 
recently been placed in charge of the consumer cooperative at Poston 
was formerly connected with the Asahi Trading Co. of Los Angeles? 

Mr. James. A question on that, Mr. Steedman. The man who is 
now in charge of the Poston Cooperative Enterprises is Mr. George 
Y. Katow, who was general manager and director of the Asia Co, of 
Los Angeles. 

»Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello. 



9170 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

Mr. Steedman. There is a difference in the companies? 

Mr. James. Yes. Mr. Katow has not been in Japan for 30 years. 

I have every reason to believe that he is loyal but he is at 

the present time, under the direction of the ■^, who is 

the chairman of this all-important board of tru&tees of the Poston 
Cooperative Enterprises. 

Mr. Steedman. Under the law ^ is allowed to draw 

from frozen funds $500 a month; is he not? 

Mr. James. I am not sure on that point, whether it is $100 a month 
or $500 a month. But he can definitely draw, to the best of my 
knowledge of that law, he can draw certain sums each month. 

Mr. Steedman. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CosTELLO. Does that include your interrogation of the witness? 
. Mr. Steedman. That is right. 

Mr. Costello. Anythmg further this morning? 

Mr. Steedman. No, sir. 

Mr. Costello. We appreciate very much, Mr. James, your having 
appeared before the committee. 

I think you have been extremely frank and a very capable witness, 
and we appreciate it very much. 

Mr. James. I would like to put in one further remark in the tran- 
script that I have fully appreciated the difficulties with which the ad- 
ministration at Poston has worked ; that I have found after being asso- 
ciated with them for a year to the best of my ability, the director and 
other administrators of the project are attemptmg to do a good job. 
But in my opinion they are handicapped by insufficient direction at 
Washington; and that they have been handicapped further by con- 
fusion and by uncertainties created by a lack of policy at Washington 
in the problem of segregation of disloyal and subversive Japanese. 

Mr. Eberharter. In other words, they are conscientious and a 
hard-working group? 

Mr. James. That is the only thing I have attempted to put forward 
on my own and you may take it for what it is worth. 

Mr. Costello. I thmk you have helped us very materially in 
getting a clearer picture of the situation in the camp and the condi- 
tions under which the camp is being operated, as well as the many 
difficulties which the administrators of the camp are confronted with^ 
and to that extent materially aids us. 

Mr. James. I feel if they were able to do so they would concur with 
me ; and that is my last observation. 

Mr. Costello. We wish to thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Costello. The committee will stand adjourned until Tuesday 
morning at 10 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 1 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10 a. m., 
Tuesday, June 15, 1943.) 

'Name stricken from the record at the requ irman Costello. 



INVESTiaATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA 
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES 



TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 1943 

House of Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to 

Investigate Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States 
Post Office and Court House, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M. 
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presidmg. 

Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and 
Hon. Karl E. Mundt. 

Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, 
acting coimsel. 

Mr, Costello. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Steedman, will you call the first witness. 

Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, we have a delegation here today 
from Phoenix, Ariz., composed of Mr. Lin B. Orme, president of the 
Salt River Valley Water Users' Association, Mr. Harold R. Scoville, 
county attorney of Maricopa County, Mr. Lon Jordan, sheriff of 
Maricopa County and Mr. Irving Jennings, who is an attorney in 
Phoenix. 

These gentlemen came from Phoenix to Los Angeles to testify 
regarding the Japanese problem as it affects the State of Aiizona and 
particularly the section sun'ounding the city of Phoenix. 

Our first witness is Mr. Orme, who has a prepared statement for the 
committee. 

Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Orme? 

TESTIMONY OF LIN B. ORME, PRESIDENT OF THE SALT RIVER 
VALLEY WATER USERS' ASSOCIATION 

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Costello. "\^ ill you please state your full name to the reporter? 

Mr. Orme. Lin B. Orme. 

I have this statement and if you gentlemen have no objection I 
should like to read it. 

Mr. Costello. You may proceed, Mr. Orme. 

Mr. Orme. I am president of the Salt River Vallej^ Water Users'" 
Association, and have been for the past 9 years. 

Prior to that time I was vice president, and also served on the 
council and was a member of the board of governors. 

I have lived in the Salt River Valley near Phoenix since 1879,. 
and have lived on, owned, and operated the same farm since 1896. 

9171 



9172 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

The Salt River project operates what is generally known as the 
Roosevelt project. It is a Federal reclamation project irrigating 
approximately 250,000 acres of land surrounding Phoenix, Ariz. 

The water supply comes from the Salt and Verde Rivers which 
drain the mountains to the north and east of Fhoenix. 

The two rivers come together 30 miles above Phoenix where the 
water is taken out and distributed through our canal system which 
irrigates the project in the Salt River Valley. 

There is one large storage dam on the Verde River approximately 
190 feet in height above the stream bed, and storing when full, nearly 
200,000 acre-feet of water. 

On the Salt River there are four large storage dams: Roosevelt 
being the largest, which is 240 feet in height above the stream bed 
and holds when full 1,650,000 acre-feet of water. 

Below that is Horse Mesa which is 272 feet m height above the 
river and stores 240,000 acre-feet of water. 

Some 12 miles below that dam is the Mormon Flat Dam which is 
150 feet above the stream bed and holds approximately 70,000 acre- 
feet of water. 

Some 10 or 12 miles on down is Stewart Mountain Dam which is 
140 feet in height above the stream bed and holds 60,000 acre-feet. 

An acre-foot of water is that amount of water which will cover an 
acre of land 1 foot in depth. All reservoirs when full store nearly 
2,000,000 acre-feet of water, or sufficient water to cover the entire 
project approximately 8 feet in depth. 

The St. Francis Dam which went out a number of years ago con- 
tained only 24,000 acre-feet of water. The two dams recently blown 
up by the British in Germany had a capacity of approximately 250,000 
acre-feet of water. 

Roosevelt Dam alone when full holds six times that amount of water 
and at the present time has four times that amount of water in storage. 

If any one of the dams should be blown out, it would cause disas- 
trous floods. If any one of the dams on the Salt River would go out, 
it would unquestionably cause the other dams below to break and go 
out, and cause one of the great disasters of American history. If 
Roosevelt Dam should be blown up unquestionably all Phoenix would 
be under many feet of water, and the loss of life and destruction of 
property would be enormous. 

The main line of the Southern Pacific Railroad crosses and runs 
close to the Salt River for many miles. Any such flood as I have 
described would put the main line of the Southern Pacific out of 
commission for many months. Thousands of troops pass over that 
railroad every week. 

The entire cultivated area of Maricopa County, which is the county 
in which Phoenix is located, is approximately 400,000 acres; 250,000 
acres of which is under the Salt River project. 

Approximately 40 percent of the population of the State is in 
Maricopa County, and the greater part of which live in Phoenix, and 
in the cultivated area surrounding the city. 

Some months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese,' 
the association placed guards on its dams. At the time of the attack 
on Pearl Harbor the number of guards were increased. Since that 
time from 24 to 30 have been used to guard the dams and power 
plants of the association. Since July 3, 1941, the Government has 
paid one-half of the cost of this guard duty. 



UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9173 

The Salt River Valley is not a semiarid country like southern Cali- 
fornia. Crops cannot be grown without irrigation. Should anything- 
happen to our dams which would release the water, economic life so 
far as farming is concerned, with the exception of a small amount of 
land that could be irrigated from the low flow of the river, and from 
pumps, would cease. 

The destruction of our dam system would also put out of commis- 
sion our power plants. The production of power in this area is 
between 600,000,000 and 700,000,000 kilowatt-hours per year. 

All of our storage dams with the exception of one, have large 
hydroelectric plants. In addition, we have five small hydroelectric 
plants on our caiud system. 

The total hydro capacit}- of these plants is approximately 100,000 
horsepower. 

We also have a new modern steam plant of approximately 37,000 
horsepower and two Deisel plants of approximately 7,000 horsepower 
each. 

In addition the association purchases 40,000 horsepower from the 

Government from the power plant just above Parker. All this power 

is distributed by the association all through the Salt River Valley; 

to the mines in the Globe-Miami and superior districts, and in the 

. Casa Grande Valley for a distance of some 110 miles from Phoenix. 

All told the association has approximately 1,500 miles of power 
lines; operates 13 transmission substations and 8 smaller substations. 

The Inspiration Copper Co., which produces something like 10,000,- 
000 pounds of copper per month, gets its power exclusively from our 
project. The Castle Dome Copper Co., a new mine which has just 
come into production, depends exclusively on power from our associ- 
artion. Its capacity is 10,000 tons of ore per day. 

The Magma Copper Co., one of the large producers, also gets part 
of its power from the association. There are other mining companies 
which get smaller amounts of power from the association. 

A large acreage of land is irrigated in this area from deep-well 
pumps. The association furnishes the power exclusively to approxi- 
mately 200,000 acres of such land. 

The association also furnishes power to the Central Arizona Light 
& Power Co., which in turn serves the city of Phoenix and most of 
the smaller towns in the valley as well as a pumping area northwest 
of Phoenix. 

That company has an additional supply of power from a 60,000- 
horsepower steam plant west of Phoenix, and it likewise gets 40,000 
horsepower from Parker Dam over the same lines which serve the 
association. 

The power line which brings in this Parker power is unguarded. 
The Parker Dam also supplies power to Tucson, Ariz., the second 
largest city in the State of Arizona, as well as 7,000 horsepower to 
the Indian Service at Casa Grande and Florence. 

We have been uneasy over the safety of our dams and the safety 
of our power stations ever since the war broke out. To guard all of 
our power lines, dams, power plants, substations, and our main canals 
100 percent would take an army of men. 

The Japanese infiltration into this valley commenced several years 
ago. Their standards of living are away below that of the other in- 
habitants of the valley. That standard is not one of necessity but ap- 



9174 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 

parently one of choice. Sanitation around their homes could often be 
described a Uttle less than filthy. They do not mingle with the white 
people, but have built their own social centers and schools where their 
own language is taught their children. 

A number of years ago Arizona passed a law forbidding the owner- 
ship of land to be in persons other than those qualified for citizenship. 
That did not solve the problem. 

Ownership of land was placed in the name of dummy holders or 
corporations, and it was often very difficult to ascertain the true owner- 
ship. 

Since the Government has adopted the program of releasing the 
Japanese from the two centers in Arizona, they and their agents are 
tr