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TnVESTIGATION of UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
EXECUTIVE BOARD
JOINT ANTI-FASCIST REFUGEE COMMITTEE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-NINTH CONGKESS
SECOND SESSION
ON
H. Res. 5
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND
OBJECTS OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN
THE UNITED STATES; (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE
UNITED STATES OF SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROP-
AGANDA THAT IS INSTIGATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES
OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE
OF THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AS GUARANTEED BY
OUR CONSTITUTION; AND (3) ALL OTHER QUESTIONS IN
RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID CONGRESS IN ANY
NECESSARY REMEDIAL LEGISLATION
APRIL 4, 1946, AT WASHINGTON, D. C.
'-6
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
L
PUBLIC. ^
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
85148 WASHINGTON : 1946
n
b
At'ti ^5 1948
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia. Chairman
JOHN E. RANKIN, Mississippi J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey
J. HARDIN PETERSON, Florida KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
J. W. ROBINSON, Utah GERALD W. LANDIS, Indiana
JOHN R. MURDOCK, Arizona
HERBERT C. BONNER, North Carolina
Eenie Adamson, Counsel
John W Carrington, Clerk
II
CONTENTS
This document contains the testimony of the members of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee before the House Committee on
Un-American Activities, April 4, 1946. Tlie following members were present and
testified :
Dr. Jacob Auslander.
Prof. Lyman R. Bradley.
Mrs. Marj.>r:e Choaorov.
Howard Fast.
Mrs. Ernestina G. Fleischman.
Leverett Gleason.
Harry M. Justiz.
Mrs. Samuel Kamsly.
Mrs. Ruth Leider.
James Lustig.
Manuel Magana.
Dr. Louis Miller.
Herman Shumlin.
Mrs. Charlotte Stern.
Dr. Jesse Tolmach.
Mrs. Bobbie Weinstein.
Miss Helen R. Bryan, executive secretary.
Ill
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, APRIL 4, 1946
House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
executive session
The committee met at 10 a. m., Hon. John S. Wood (chairman)
presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Adamson. I will call Dr. Jacob Auslander first this morning.
TESTIMONY OF DR. JACOB AUSLANDER, NEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Dr. Auslander. Mr. Chairman, may I ask my counsel to come in?
The Chairman. No ; we do not have lawyers in here with the wit-
nesses .
Dr. Auslander. May I ask you for permission, then, to consult with
counsel if I believe I need to ?
The Chairman. You can confer with him at any time in answer to
any questions that may be asked you.
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your full name and your address to the
reporter, please ?
Dr. Auslander. Jacob Auslander, 120 Riverside Drive, New York
City.
Mr. Adamson. I notice the prefix "Doctor" in front of your name.
Are you an M. D. ?
Dr. Auslander. I am an M. D., yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a member of the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Dr. Auslander. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And your appearance here is in answer to a subpena
which was served upon you ? Is that right?
Dr. Auslander. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. By this committee ?
Mr. Adamson. Yes; a subpena of this committee. You have the
copy there?
Dr. Auslander. I have the original subpena here.
Mr. Adamson. I offer this copy, Mr. Chairman, as part of the record
in this hearing. We will make the return by the official later.
The Chairman. It will be admitted.
1
2 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
(The subpena addressed to Dr. Jacob Auslander folloAvs :)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Conokessi of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Anns, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Dr. Jacob Auslander, 286 West Eighty-
sixth Street, New York City, a member of the execittive board of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities
Committee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which the
Honorable John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers,
records, and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on
account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsixliary or sub-
committee thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of com-
munications by atiy means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The
said l)ooks, papers, and records demanded herein are for the period from January
1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in their chamber in the
city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to
testify touching matters of inquiry counnitted to said committee; and he is not
to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Carrington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a member of the executive board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, and did you participate in
a meeting at which jonr chairman, Doctor Barsky, laid before you
a subpena served upon him previously, to produce the books, papers,
and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee before this
committee of Congress ?
Dr. Auslander. Yes. You asked me two questions. The first
question I already answered before. I am a member of the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee. May I ask you
to repeat the second question ?
]\Ir. Adamson. Did you participate in a meeting of the board of
which Dr. Barsky, your chairman, was present, and at which meeting
the question of complying with a sub]5ena to produce the books and
papers and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee for
the inspection of this committee here was laid before the board, and
according to Dr. Barsky's testimony the board refused permission
to him to produce the books, ])apers, and records in compliance with
the subpena ? Now, we merely want to know if you participated in
that meeting?
Dr. Auslander. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And did you vote to deny to this committee the
privilege of inspecting the books, j^apers, and records ?
Dr. Auslander. It doesn't matter how I voted, the board voted.
Mr. Adamson. The board was unanimous, was it ?
Dr. Auslander, The board voted against it. The board controls
the policy.
The Chairman. And you voted against it?
Dr. Auslander. I don't think that question is pertinent.
The Chairman. You don't think it is pertinent? Can't you state
whether you did or not ?
Dr. Auslander. I don't think it is pertinent what I do personally.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES S
Mr. Thomas. Are you willing now to let this committee see the
books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Com-
jiiittee ?
Dr. AusLANDER. I do not have control. That is for the board to
decide.
Mr. Thomas. But you are a member of the board. I am asking
you what you would do.
Dr. AusLANDER. I could not say without consulting in the board
meeting.
Mr. MuNDT. The executive board controls the policy of the Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee, does it not?
Dr. AusLANDER. Ycs, I suppose so.
Mr. MuNDT. And the board voted against allowing' this committee
to see the books, records, and papers of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refu-
gee Committee?
Dr. AusLANDER. The board voted unanimously.
Mr. MuNDT. How did you vote?
Dr. AusLANDER. I do not think that question is pertinent. That is
a personal matter.
The Chairman. That is what we want; what you would do per-
sonally. Would you consent now to allow the investigators of this
committee to see the books and papers, in compliance with the
subpena ?
Dr. AusLANDER. I would like to consult my attorney.
The Chairman. That is a simple question. Can't you answer that
"Yes" or "No" without consulting your attorney?
Dr. AusLANDER. I would like to consult my attorney.
The Chairman. All right.
(The witness left the hearing room for a few moments.)
Dr. AusLANDER. Now, the question is whether I would consent now
to have the books of the com.mittee opened, of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Conunittee, opened to your cornxUiittee? I cannot answer, be-
cause this is a question for the board to decide. In the board meetings
these things are decided, and we come to a certain decision. I have
no opinion at this time now whether I would.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words, you are not prepared to say "yes"
this morning?
Dr. AusLANDER. Yes ; but I refuse to say "no." I am not prepared
to say. I cannot say what I would do in the future, At the present
I am not prepared to make any decision, as far as that is concerned.
Only in a board meeting I am required to make a decision. In the
board meetings these things are discussed, and I hear the arguments
for and the arguments against, and I can form an opinion, but here I
cannot form an opinion.
The Chairman. I will ask you this question : Have you heretofore
voted in favor of this committee of Congress having access to those
books ?
Dr. Auslander. This is also the same question. As I snid before, I
would not answer.
The Chairman. You would not answer?
Dr. Auslander. Because I don't think this is pertinent, the way I
personally voted.
The Chairman. Miss Helen Bryan is an employee of your organiza-
tion, is she not?
4 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. AusLANDER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And is subject to the will and direction of the board
of directors, of which you are one ?
Dr. AusLANDER. In some respects she is, and in some respects she is
not.
The Chairman. In respect to what she does concerning the policy of
that committee ? She has no authority to produce books and records
or to permit anyone to see them without the consent of the board of
directors, has she?
Dr. Auslander. Well, that is not exactly so; no. It is not so.
The Chairman. You mean she has got that authority ?
Dr. AusLANDER. She was given the authority to
The Chairman (interposing) . Just answer the question I asked you.
Dr. Auslander. Well, what is the question ?
The Chairman. Has she got authority to permit this committee to
see those books, irrespective of the will of the board of directors ?
Dr. Auslander. Within her legal limits. She was asked to protect
the books.
The Chairman. Has she got authority, if she wanted to do it, if she
was willing to do it, to permit this committee to have access to your
books and records called for by this subpena, whether your board gives
her permission to do it or not? Has she still got the authority to do
it?
Dr. Auslander. If the board gave permission, then she would. She
has limited authority.
She has limited authority provided for the legal protection of the
books.
The Chairman. I asked you a plain question. I will repeat it.
Has she got the authority from your board to permit this committee
of Congress to inspect the books, records, and documents called for in
this subpena, without the consent of your board of directors? Has
she got that much authority ?
Dr. Auslander. That was not formally discussed, therefore I can-
not say. Ma}^ I say a word in explanation of that ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Dr. Auslander. I don't know whether she has authority to do it. I
know she was told by the board, I will say, to
The Chairman (interposing). To decline?
Dr. Auslander. No; not told to decline. She was told to protect
the books, as advised by counsel, to protect the books within the legal
requirements. This was the decision of the board after a lengthy
discussion.
The Chairman. Then the board has met and by the board action,
you being present, has declined to give permission for us to see them,
has it not?
Dr. Auslander. No.
The Chairman. You said that awhile ago, didn't you ?
Dr. Auslander. The decision giving the books, the authority to
Miss Helen Bryan, telling her that she shall consult counsel, and with-
in legal limitations act according to the advice of counsel, so far as the
books are concerned.
The Chairman. Didn't you testify awhile ago that your board had
a meeting and by action of the board declined to permit this commit-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 5
tee of Congress to see those books and records ? Didn't you testify to
that a while ago ?
Dr. AusLANDER. No ; that was about Dr. Barsky.
Mr. Thomas. He is chairman of the board, isn't he?
Dr. Ausi^vNDER. We declined to give Dr. Barsky permission to give
the books, because there is no necessity for him to give the books when
we have a custodian.
Mr. Thomas. This gentleman is either perjuring himself or Dr.
Barsky perjured himself here.
Dr. AusLANDER. No ; excuse me, I will give the reasons why we
refused to give Dr. Barsky permission, because we had already a
legal custodian.
The Chairman. It is clearly obvious to the chairman, gentlemen,
that this witness is trying to evade the questions. Now, I want to ask
him the straight question, what your attitude is today about it?
Dr. AusLANDER. About what?
The Chairman. As a member of the board of directors of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Eefugee Committee, do you consent now to this com-
mittee of Congress having access to Ihe records called for in this
subpena? Do you or not? Just answer the question "Yes" or "No."
Dr. AusLANDER. I cauuot answer the question "Yes" or "No," be-
cause the board has to decide, not I personally.
The Chairman. I am asking you what your own personal attitude
is.
Dr. AusLANDER. My pereonal attitude I refuse to divulge.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. MuNDT. That's all.
Mr. Eankin. One question. Who is this lawyer Vou talked with
out there ?
Dr. AusLANDER. Mr. Wolf, Benedict Wolf.
Mr. Eankin. Where do you live? Where is your home?
Dr. AusLANDER. Ill New York City, 120 Eiverside Drive.
Mr. Eankin. How long have you lived there?
Dr. AusLANDER. About 9 years.
Mr. Eankin. Where did you come from before you went there ?
Dr. AusLANDER. I caiiie from 520 West One Hundred and Tenth
Street.
Mr. Eankin. Are you a native of New York?
Dr. AusLANDER. No, sir.
Mr. Rankin. AVhat is your native home ?
Dr. AusLANDER. Austria.
Mr. Eankin. When did you leave Austria?
Dr. AusLANDER. I left Austria in 1923.
Mr. Eankin. How old are you ?
Dr. AusLANDER. I am going to be 50 in the fall. I am 49 now.
Mr. Thomas. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Dr. AusLANDER. Yes, sir.
"Mr. Thomas. And when were you naturalized?
Dr AusLANDER. In 1929, I believe ; yes.
Mr. Thomas. You were naturalized in 1929?
Dr. AusLANDER. Yes ; I am almost certain.
Mr. Thomas. Wlien did you say you came to this country?
Dr. AusLANDER. Ill 1924.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
6 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
^ Mr. Rankin. Do you realize that you are violating your oath of
citizenship when you show contempt of this committee, and are likely
to have that citizenship canceled ?
Dr. AusLANDER. I do not think that I have contempt for this com-
mittee. I don't think so.
Mr. Rankin. We think you have.
Dr. Auslandee. Well, it is just a matter of opinion.
The Chairman. Where were you naturalized ?
Dr. Auslander. In the district court in New York.
Mr. MuNDT, I don't think we should waste any more time with this
witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman, You are excused.
(Dr. Auslander submitted the following paper :)
Sir. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and
testify and to produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control. I in-
dividually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the possession,
custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not have
either in my possession, custody, or control the books, records, and documents
described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with .Aour order to produce them.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. Call Professor Bradley.
TESTIMONY OF PROF. LYMAN K. BRADLEY, NEW YORK, N. Y.
(The witness- was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Give j'our full name and your address to the reporter,
Professor.
Mr. Bradley. May I have counsel with me ?
Mr. Adamson. No. Give your full name and address to the re-
porter, so he will know who you are.
Mr. Bradley. Lyman R. Bradley, 10 Downing Street, New York 14
May I have counsel to consult with ?
The Chairman. I am going to advise 3^011 what the policy of this
committee is. We do not permit lawyers to accompaii}^ witnesses in
the committee room.
Mr. Bradley. May I see him?
The Chairman. Any question that is asked you which involves a
matter that you reasonably feel you should consult counsel about you
will be given that privilege.
Mr. Bfadley. Consult him outside?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. I notice the prefix "Professor" before j^our name.
Will you tell the committee what j^our connection is with regard to
that? Are you a professor?
Mr. Bradley. I am.
Ml-. Adamson. Where are you connected ?
Mr. Bradley. New York University.
Mr. Adamson. And what subject?
Mr. Bradley. Germany.
Ml-. Adamson. Are you a citizen of the United States?
jMr. Bradley. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 7
Mr. Adamson. Are you a native-born citizen?
Mr. Bradley. Yes; I am native-born.
Mr. Adamson. A native of New York?
Mr. Bradley. A native of New York State, not Nev/ York City.
Mr. Adamson. Where do you come from in New York State?
Mr. Bradley. Spencer, N. Y. That is a small town south of Ithaca.
Mv. Adamson. Are you here in answer to a subpena served upon you
by direction of this committee, directing you to produce certain books,
papers, and records ?
Mr. Bradley. Yes, sir [producing a subpena].
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Chairman, I offer the copy of the subpena in
evidence in connection with the testimony of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The- subpena on Prof. Lyman R. Bradley follows:)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Prof. Lyman R. Bradley, New York
University, New York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities
Committee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which
Hon. John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers, records,
and papers relating to the receipt and disl)ursement of money by or on account
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommmit-
tee thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of communications
by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The said books, pa-
pers, and records demanded herein are for the period from January 1, 1945, up to
and including the date of this subpena, in their chamber in the city of Washing-
ton, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify touching
matters of inquiry committed to said committee; and he is not to depart without
leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Withess my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Carbington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Piofessor, are you a member of the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Mr. Bradley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And did you participate in a meeting at which your
chairman. Dr. Barsky, laid before the board a subpena served upon
him by the committee to produce both papers and records of the
Refugee Committee? First, answer did you participate in the
meeting ?
Mr. Bradley. I am not quite sure of the meeting involved, the
meeting that you refer to.
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barslrv, your chairman, appeared before this
committee and testified, when he was served with a subpena by this
committee, that he laid the matter before the board of the Refugee
Committee, and that the board of the Refugee Committee — when I say
"Refugee Committee" I mean the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Com-
mittee.
Mr. Rankin. I think I would give the full title of it.
8 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Adamson. He said that j^oiir board voted and instructed him
unanimously not to comply with the subpena of this committee to pro-
duce the books, papers, and records. Now, I ask you if you par-
ticipated in that ?
Mr. Bradley. Yes, I did.
Mr. Adamson. And what was your vote on the matter ?
Mr. Bradley. I don't think that is pertinent.
Mr. Adamson. Do you refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. Bradley. Yes ; I refuse to answer. That is not pertinent.
Mr. Adamson. You refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. Bradley. On that ground, on that basis, with that qualification.
Mr. Adamson. You refuse to answer the question, regardless of what
the grounds are ?
Mr. Bradley. Well, that is the reason for my refusing to answer it.
That is a private matter.
Mr. Adamson. Now, I ask you if you have produced the books, papers,
and records called for in the subpena which was served upon you here
today ?
The Chairman. Please answer the question. Have you produced
them ?
Mr. Bradley. In reply to that I must insist upon reading this paper.
The Chairman. We don't want any reading. We want to know
whether or not you have got them here.
Mr. Bradley. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Certainly a man intelligent enough to teach in a univer-
sity can answer the question whether he has got the books with him
or not. Look in your pockets and see whether you have got them.
Mr. Bradley. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read this paper to you.
The Chairman. We don't w^ant any reading.. We want you to
answer the question whether you have got them or not. You know
whether you have got them or whether you haven't.
Mr. Bradley. I insist upon reading the statement.
Mr. Thomas. "Wlio is running this committee, you or the com-
mittee ?
Mr. Bradley. May I say, I think the purpose of the question is
served by reading this paper.
The Chairman, We are not concerned about the written statement
that you have there. You have been asked one simple question that
involves a fact that you have to know ; that is, whether you have got
these books with you or not, called for by this subpena. Have you
got them ?
Mr. Bradley. This is my reply.
The Chairman. Have you got the books ?
Mr. Bradley. I insist that I have to read this reply.
Mr. MuNDT. You can answer "Yes" or "No." We want to know if
you have got them.
Mr. Bradley (reading) :
I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear
The Chairman (interposing). All we want to know, Mr. Bradley,
is, Will you answer the question that has been asked you ? You know
whether you have got the books or not.
Mr. Bradley. I will answer it by reading this paper.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9
The Chairman. You are a man of intelligence, aren't you? You
think you are at least. Do you know whether you have got these
books with you or not ?
Mr. Bradley. May I consult m}^ counsel ?
Mr. Rankin. Not on this question.
The Chairman. It doesn't require a lawyer to say whether you
know whether you have got them or not.
Mr. Rankin. He has already shown contempt o,f the committee.
Now let us have his answer this question "Yes" or "No."
Mr. MuNDT, Eithej" refuse to answer or answer it, one or the other.
Mr. Bradley (reading) :
I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and testify and to
produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee
The Chairman (interposing). No; I tell you we don't want you
to read a statement. Have you got these books with you?
Mr. Bradley. I must insist that I have to read this paper.
The Chairman. Do you refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. Bradley. I would like to answer it by reading this statement.
Mr. MuNDT. Don't tell us what you would like to do. Just answer
the question.
Mr. Bradley. I will answer the question b}^ reading the statement.
Mr. Rankin. You are not going to read the statement.
The Chairman. We are not interested in the statement.
Mr. Lands. Ask him if he is in favor now, as a member of the
board, of producing the books, records, and papers,
Mr. MuNm\ No ; let us stay with the question he has now.
Mr. Thomas, If he refuses to answer, we might as well let him go,
Mr. Bradley. I will answer the question by reading this paper.
The Chairman. We don't want any reading of any preparecl state-
ment about it. We want the question answered.
Mr. Bradley. May I ask my counsel about this ?
The Chairman. You don't need to ask him about whether you
have got the books. You know whether you have got them or not,
Mr. MuNDT. You have no question about whether you have got
the books.
The Chairman. Do you have to consult counsel to know whether
you have got the books with you or not? Do you have to ask him
that?
Mr. Bradley. I insist that I read this statement.
The Chairman. Mr. Bradley, do 3^011 have to ask your counsel to.
determine whether or not you have got those books?
Mr. Bradley, I have to ask my counsel about your question,
Mr, Rankin. You don't have to ask him that.
The Chairman. You mean you have to ask counsel in order to<
know whether you have got them here or not?
Mr. Bradley. I should like to answer your question bj' reading,
this statement.
The Chairman, I am not asking you what you would like to do,.
I am asking you if you think you have to interrogate your counsel;
in order to determine whether or not j^ou have got these books with]
vou.
10 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Bradley. I will reply to it in this way
The Chairman (interposino:). I don't want you to reply in any
way except by ''Yes" or "No."
Mr. BRdVDLEY (reading) :
I imlividually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the
material requested in the subpena
The Chairman (interposing-). We have told you two or three times
we don't want to hear any prepared statement. Let me see that
paper.
Mr. Bradley. I will have to read this to you. •
The Chair:\ian. Let me see your statement.
Mr. Bradley. Allow me to finish reading the statement.
Mr. Adamson. It is the same one the previous witness had.
Mr. Rankin. Give it to the chairman. Now, the next question he
refuses, just call up the marshal and send him to jail.
The Chairman. The question that was asked you, Mr. Bradley,
was: "Did you bring these books with you here today?" You can
answer that "Yes'' or "No."
Mr. Bradley. Mr. Chairman, my answer is in this manner.
The Chairman. Do you know whether you have got them here
or not ?
Mr. Bradley. My answer has been turned over to you, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. Will you answer that question?
Mr. Bradley. My reply to these questions is before you in the
written statement.
The Chairman. Do you mean to say, then, that you decline to an-
swer the question?
Mr. Bradley. I think I answer the question by that written state-
ment.
The C::airman. And in no other way? Is that right?
Mr. Bradley. That is the answer to the question, the statement.
The Chairman. Is that the only answer you propose to give us?
Mr. Bradley. That is my entire answer.
The Chairman. And that is the only way you intend to answer it?
Mr. Bradley. That is the reply.
The Chairman. And the only reply vou are going to make? Is
that right ?
Mr. Bradley. That is the entire reply.
The Chairman. Now, the board of directors — is that what you call
your board, board of directors or executive board, or what do you
call it?
Mr. Bradley. I think either one would apply. I have forgotten
for the moment.
The Chairman. One of them, either the board of directors or the
executive board, of which j^ou are a member, of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, is the controlling authority of that organiza-
tion, is it not ?
Mr. Bradley. It delegates powers to the executive secretary.
The Chairman. And it can rescind those powers? If it has au-
thority to delegate, it has authority to rescind them, does it not?
Mr. Bradley. May I ask my counsel ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 11
The Chairman. The policy of your board, or your organization,
is controlled by your board, isn't it?
Mr. Bradley. But I would feel better about the answer if I could
consult counsel.
The Chairman. You know the answer to that question, don't you?
We can't let you ru i out of here on every question to consult your
counsel. We will be here 2 or 3 days. You know whether or not your
board of directors is the controlling body of your organization, don't
you ?
Mr. Bradlky. May I ask you to put the original question?
The Chairman. The original question is that the boai'd of directors
or the executive board, whichever one you call it, of which you are a
member, is the authority that controls the policy of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Mr. Bradley. j\lay I ask counsel that?
Mr. MuNDT. Is your counsel a member of the board ?
Mr. Bradley. No, sir.
Mr. JSIuNDT. You ought to know more about it than he does.
Mr. Bradley. I still request to consult counsel.
The Chairman. I don't think that is a question that counsel can
enlighten you on. You know whether it is or not.
Mr. Bradley. Nevertheless, I would do better in answering your
question if I could consult counsel.
The Chairman. We want you to answer or decline to answer.
Which do you do?
Mr. Bradley. Without being able to speak with my counsel, I am
not in a position to reply adequately as I think I should.
The Chairman. Then I will ask you this question : As a member of
the board of directors, or the executive board, of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee, are you willing now to permit this com-
mittee of Congress or its representatives to have access to the books
and records that are called for in the subpena that was served on
3'ou ?
Mr. Bradley. I don't think that that is pertinent at this moment.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you are
willing to permit, as a member of that board? Are you willing to
permit it?
Mr. Bradley. I think the question is not pertinent at the moment.
The Chairman. And for that reason do you decline to answer ?
Mr. Bradley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You may be excused.
(Mr. Bradley submitted the following paper :)
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring nie to appear and
testify and to produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control. I
individually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the .Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the possession,
custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not
have either in my possession, custody, or control the books, records, and documents
described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce
them.
12 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will next call Mrs. Marjorie Chodorov.
TESTIMONY OF MES. MARJORIE CHODOROV, NEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your full name and address to thfe
reporter ?
Mrs. Chodorov. My name is Mrs. Marjorie Chodorov, 815 Park
Avenue, New York City. May I have permission to bring my counsel
in?
The Chairman. Who is your counsel ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Mr. Benedict Wolf.
The Chairman. He represents the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Com-
mittee, does he not ?
Mrs. Chodorov. That is right.
The Chairman. Is he your personal counsel or counsel for the
committee ?
Mrs. Chodorov. He is counsel for the committee and for the mem-
bers of the board, as I understand it. I consider him my counsel. May
I bring him in ?
The Chairman. If any question arises here that involves a legal
matter which you desire to consult your counsel about, we will permit
you to consult him.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I am.
The Chairman. And you were born in New York; you are a native
New Yorker?
Mrs. Chodorov. I am.
Mr. Adamsdn. You are a native of New York City ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I am.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a member of the executive board, I believe
they call it, of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
JVIrs. Chodorov. Yes, I am.
Mr. Adamson. And how long have you been a member of tliat board ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I have been a member of the board, I would say,,
about 2 years.
Mr. Adamson. And have you been served with a subpena by this
committee?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Directing you to produce books, papers, and records
here today?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes, I have.
Mr. Adamson. Have you the pink copy of the subpena there?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes [producing the subpena].
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be made a part of the
testimony of this witness, the same as with the other witnesses.
The Chairman. It will be admitted.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 13
(The subpena served on Mrs. Marjorie Chodorov follows:)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Repkesentatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mrs. Marjorie Chodorov, 815 Park
Avenue, New York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of vphich Hon. John
S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers, records, and papers
relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on account of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommittee thereof,
together with all correspondence and memoranda of communications by any
means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The said books, papers,
and records demanded herein are for the period from January 1, 1945, up to and
including the date of this subpena, in their chamber in the city of W^ashington,
on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify touching matters
of inquiry committed to said committee ; and she is not to depart without leave
of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
W^itness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March, 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest ;
John W. Caebington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Your chairman, Dr. Barsky, has testified previously
before this committee that when he was served with a subpena at the
prior date directing him to produce the books, papers, and records of
the Joint Anti-Fascist Kefugee Committee he laid the matter of that
subpena before the executive board, and that the executive board voted,
instructed him to refuse to comply with the subpena in respect to the
production of the books, papers, and records. Now, I ask you if you
participated in that meeting of the executive board ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I didn't understand the executive board instructed
him to refuse to comply with the subpena. I don't believe I was
present at that meeting of the board.
Mr. Adamson. Then you did not vote on the question?
Mrs. Chodorov. I did vote by proxy or over the telephone.
Mr. Adamson. Then you did participate in the meeting to that
extent ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes; but you said the executive board instructed
Dr. Barsky to refuse to comply with the subpena. I didn't have the
feeling that he refused to comply with the subpena.
Mr. Adamson. Well, what did you vote for when you voted over the
telephone ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I voted in favor of a resolution which stated that,
since Miss Bryan was the custodian of those books, there was no reason
to change the custodianship of those books. She has always been
custodian of the books, to my knowledge.
Mr. Landis. She was subpenaed here too.
85148—46 2
14 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. CiioDORov. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. You knew that slie luid refused to produce the books,
papers, and records ; did you not ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, Mrs. Chodorov, as a member of the board of
directors of the Joint Anti-Fnscist Refugee Committee— first I will
ask you this question : Do you call that the board of directors or the
executive board ?
Mrs. Chodorov. The Executive board.
The Chairman. The executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chairman. That is the governing body of that organization;
is it not?
Mrs. Chodorov. I guess you could say that.
The Chairman. Well, they control the policy of the organization ;
do they not ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chair3ian. And they control their employees?
Mrs. Chodorov. I could not honestly say to what extent they con-
trol the employees.
The ChairjNian. If the employees were to desist from carrying out
the instructions or orders of the board, you would get rid of them
and get somebody that would; would ycu not?
Mrs. Chodorov. I would have to think about that.
The Chairman. You certainly have that authority, don't you? You
have the authority to employ your em])loyees, don'l you?
Mrs. Chodorov. I would like to think about it. Could I speak to
my counsel?
The Chairman. Who employs Miss Bryan?
Mrs. Chodorov. I imagine the executive board did. She was already
'in the employ of the organization when I joined the executive board.
The Chairman. Don't you feel that as a member of that executive
board, if a majority of the board determined that they were dissatis-
fied with her actions in comiection with her official duties they could
get rid of her and get somebody else ?
Mrs. Chodorov. 1 have never been presented with that question, so
I could not answer honestly right now.
The Chairman. Very well. You voted for the resolution?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chairman. That was presented ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chairman. Now I will ask you one other question. You
haven't got those documents that are called for in the subpena wdth
5^ou, have you? I don't want any statement read. I don't want your
statement read. I just want to know if you have got them.
Mrs. Chodorov. In answer to your question I have been served
The Chairman (interposing). I don't want to be rude. I just
asked you a question. Have you got the books and papers?
Mrs. Chodorov. I don't want to be rude, but I will say in answer
to your question that I have been served with a subpena
The Chairtman (interposing). We are not going to permit any
reading.
L'N-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 15
Mrs. CiiODORov. I am very sorry, sir, that is my answer to your ques-
tion. [Reading] :
I have been served with a subpena requiring" me to appear
The Chairman (interposing). Just a moment — we are not going
to permit you to read that statement.
INIrs. Chodorov. I am sorry, but I can't answer your question other-
Avise. This is my answer.
The CHAiR]NrAN. Do you know whether you have got the papers?
Mrs. Chodorov. I don't refuse to answer your question. I have an
answer, which is that I have been served with a subpena requiring
me to appear and testify and to produce certain books, records, and
correspondence
The Chairman (interposing). Now, Mrs. Chodorov, let us go along
here in a decorous way. We have got a copy of your statement here
before us. I have asked you a very courteous, simple question, whether
or not you have got the records with you. Have you got them ?
Mrs. Chodorov (reading) :
I individually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the ma-
terial requested in the subpena which was served iipon me.
The Chairman. Just a moment — jou haven't got them, then, have
you ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I do not have control of them.
The Chairman. Can you say you haven't got them ?
Mrs. Chodorov. The books, records, and correspondence of the Joint
xVnti-Fascist Refugee Committee are not in my possession. I do not
liave them in my possession.
The Chairman. Well then, answer the question.
Mrs. Chodorov. I do not have them in my possesion.
The Chairman. Then they are not here, are they?
Mrs. Chodorov. I have no control over them.
The Chairman. They are not here, are they ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I personally have no control over them.
The Chairman. Then they are not here ?
Mrs. Chodorov. The books, records, and correspondence of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the possession
The Chairman (interposing) I say, they are not here, are they?
Mrs. Chodorov. They are not in my possession. They are in the
possession of Miss Bryan. That is my statement.
The Chairman. You haven't got them here then, have you ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I personally haven't got them here.
The Chairman. And so far as you know, they are not here, are they ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I do not — I am speaking as Marjorie Chodorov, and
I do not have them in my possession.
The Chairman. I will ask you, then, what effort, if any, you have
made, as a member of this executive committee, to obtain them, bring
them here ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I personally cannot bring the books and records.
The Chairman. I asked you if you had made any effort.
Mrs. Chodorov. In what way ?
The Chairman. By conferring with the other members of the board
and getting their consent, along with yours, to bring them here. Have
JOU done that ?
16 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
INIrs. Chodorov. I think that is a legal question. May I have time
to consult counsel?
The Chairman. No ; you know what it is. It is a fact. If it exists ;
it is a fact.
Mrs. Chodorov. I personally have done nothing with the members
of the board.
The Chairman, Now I will ask you this further question : Are you
willing now, as an individual member of the executive board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to permit this committee of
Congress to inspect the records called for in the subpena ? As an indi-
vidual member of that board are j^ou willing now personally to permit
that to be done ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Well, that is something I would certainly have to
consider. I would have to think about that. I am not prepared to
answer.
The Chairman. When were you served with the subpena ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Friday evening.
The Chairman. And this is Thursday. You were served a week
ago tomorrow,
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chairman. You were served 6 days ago ?
Mrs. Chodorov. Yes.
The Chairman. You have had 6 days to consider it. Have you ar-
rived at no conclusion about it yet ?
Mrs. Chodorov. No ; I haven't thought about it.
The Chairman. So then, in answer to the question that I asked
you, whether or not you are now willing, 3^011 decline to answer be-
cause you have not made up your mind ? Is that right ?
Mrs. Chodorov. I guess that is right. I guess I would have to con-
sider it more carefully.
The Chairman. Very well, you may be excused.
(Mrs. Chodorov presented the following paper:)
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and
testify and to produce certain books, records, and corespondence of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control. I indi-
vidually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the pos-
session, custody and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of
our organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not
have either in my possession, custody or control the books, records, and documents
described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce them.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Landis. You see what they did there, they voted not to give
Barsky authority to give us the papers, but they did not vote to give
Bryan the authority to give us the papers. There ought to be another
question asked there : If they would vote to allow Miss Bryan or Dr.
Barsky, either one, to give us the papers. Of course it covers it if we
get the papers. You see the point now, that Miss Bryan has got cus-
tody of the papers, and they voted to not let Dr. Barsky deliver them,
but they did not vote on not letting Miss Bryan deliver them,
Mr, Adamson, What they did was to tell them to confer with the
attorney for the Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee and do whatever the
attornev told them to.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 17
Mr. Landis. But I think you could handle the question if you ask
them if they are now willing to let us have access to the papers.
Mr. Adamson. I will call Howard Fast.
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD FAST, NEW YOEK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your full name and your address to
the reporter?
Mr. Fast. May I consult with counsel ?
Mr. Adamson. Identify yourself for the record first.
Mr. Fast. Mv name is Howard Fast. My address is 315 Central
Park West, New York City.
The Chairman. Mr. Fast, in reply to your question about counsel,
if in the coui'se of the examination any questions are asked you that
involve a legal question that you feel you should confer with your
counsel about before answering it, if it involves a legal matter, at your
request you will be permitted to retire and confer with him. Who is
vour counsel?
Mr. Fast. Mr. Wolf, Benedict Wolf.
The Chairman. Does he represent you personally or the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Fast. I know he represents me personally, and I believe he
represents practically every one out there.
Mr. Adamson. Very well, sir. You are here today in answer to a
subpena served upon 3^011 by this committee which directs you to
produce certain books, papers, and records; is that correct?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And do you have the copy of your subpena with
you ?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir [producing the subpena].
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Chairman, I offer this as part of the record in
connection with the testimony of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be admitted.
(The subpena served on Mr. Howard Fast, 315 Central Park West,
New York City, follows : )
COPY
Bt Authority of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Anns, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mr. Howard Fast, 31 Central Park
West, New York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities
Committee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which the
Honorable .John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers,
records, and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on
account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or sub-
committee thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of com-
munications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The
said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the period from
January 1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in their chamber
in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and
there to testify touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee; and
he is not to depart without leave of said committee.
18 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at tlie city of Washington, this 29th day of March, 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Carkington, Clerk.
Mr. MuNDT. Before we ask him any questions I would like to com-
plete the identification. Wliere are you emploj^ed ?
Mr. Adamson. I was going to ask him that. What is your business^
Mr. Fast ?
Mr. Fast. I am a novelist.
Mr. Adamson. You are a writer?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And you are a member of the board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member of the board?
Mr. Fast. I would say approximately 2 years.
Mr. Adamson. I believe the proper title for that is the executive
board; is that correct?
JSIr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Now, your chairman. Dr. Barsky, has previously
testified before this committee that when he was served with a sub-
pena at a prior time he laid the matter of whether he should comply
with this subpena for the production of the books, papers, and rec-
ords of this Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee before your execu-
tive board, and the executive board voted, instructed him not to comply
with the subpena in respect to the production of the books, papers,,
and records
First I want to ask you if you were present personally at that
meeting of the board ?
Mr. Fast. No ; I was not.
Mr. Adamson. And did you participate in the voting on that ques-
tion either by proxy or otherwise ?
Mr. Fast. Yes ; I was consulted on the telephone, to ask me whether
my sentiments were in accord with those of the executive board.
Mr. Adamson. And Dr. Barsky, I believe, told us that the board
was unanimous in that decision; so did you vote in the affirmative?
Mr. Fast. Well, I voted that since Helen Bryan was the custodian
of the books, I saw no reason why she should be transferred for
Dr. Barsky.
Mr. Adamson. And you voted, then, to instruct Dr. Barsky not to
produce the records, in accordance with his testimony; is that correct?
Mr. Fast. I did not vote on any such question. I voted, as I said,
on the matter of transferring the custodianship of the books from
Helen Bryan to Dr. Barsky.
Mr. Landis. Let me ask a question right there. You knew that
Helen Bryan had also been subpenaecl to produce the books and rec-
ords and papers?
Mr. Fast. I don't know chronologically whether I knew it at that
moment. I eventually knew, of course.
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Fast, are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson, And you are a native-born citizen?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 19
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Of New York ?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rankin. How old are you ?
Mr. Fast. Thirty two.
Mr. Rankin. Were you in the service in this war?
Mr. Fast. I Avas not. But I woukl like to add, since that is not a
pertinent question, I was physically disabled. I worked for the
Office of War Information, and I worked for the Signal Corps.
Mr. Adamson. No one is questioning your motives, sir, about why
you were not in the service. It is clearly a matter of identification.
Can you tell us now whether or not you haye produced here today
the books, papers, and records called for by the subpena which was
served upon you? Now don't start reading a statement, because we
have already heard all about them, and please save us the time. Just
answer the question whether or not you have brought them.
Mr. Fast. The only way I can answer it is by reading this state-
ment.
Mr. Adamson. No; we won't let you read that because we are
pressed for time, JNIr. Fast, and the committee is not going to let
you read it.
The CiiAiRM.vN. If you will pardon me, Mr. Adamson, let me ask.
Are you a graduate of any college?
Mr. Fast. No ; I am not.
The Chairman. Are you a high-school graduate?
Mr. Fast. Yes.
The Chair^ian. From where ?
Mr. Fast. I graduated from George Washington High School.
The Chairman. Now, you know what you have got with you here,
don't you ? You can tell this coinmittee what is in your pockets, can^t
you?
JVIr. Fast. I certainly can. ,
The Chairman. Have you got the books that are called for in that
subpena in your pockets or with you here ?
Mr. Fast. I will answer that question by
The Chairman (interposing). No; just answer it "Yes" or "No."
Have you got them here or not ?
Mr. Fast. I will have to answer it in this fashion.
The Chairman. No ; I am not concerned about your reading your
statement. You know whether you have got them with you or not.
Mr. Fast (reading) :
Mr. Chairman, I have been served
The Chairman (interposing). No; I just told you we don't want
to hear a written statement. We have got the statement here on the
desk, copies of it that you are fixing to read.
Mr. Fast. You are asking me a question. I want to ansAver that
question in this way.
The Chairman. We want you to answer it "Yes" or "No." That
is the simple way to answer it. Have you got them ?
Mr. Fast (reading) :
I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear
The Chairman (interposing). I didn't ask you about that. You
have already told us you have been served with a subpena.
20 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Fast. I have to answer the question this wa}^
Mr. MuNDT. You can answer the question "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Fast. You are asking me a question, and I have the right to
answer that question as I see fit.
The Chairman. You can answer the question, then make whatever
explanation you want to make. Have you got tlie books and papers
here ?
Mr. Fast. Will you permit me to answ^er the question ?
The Chairman. Yes ; answer it "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Fast. I am going to answer the question
The Chairman (interposing). No; we don't want you to read the
statement. We want you to answer the question. You are a man of
average intelligence at least. Let us not trj?- to evade or hedge.
Mr. Fast. I am not trying to hedge.
The Chairman. All right ; have you got the books ?
Mr. Fast. I have a statement here which is my answer to that ques-
tion. I wish to read that statement.
The Chairman. But we don't want to hear your written statement.
We want to know whether you have got the books and papers. I will
ask you, Wliat effort have you made to get them here — any ?
Mr. Fast. I don't see that I can answer that question. You ask me
what effort have I m^de ?
The Chairman. Yes. Have you consulted with other members of
the executive board ?
Mr. Fast. I have no right to those books, any more than any other
citizen has, so how could I make an effort to get them ?
The Chairman. You haven't got any right to them ?
Mr. Fast. Helen Bryan is the custodian of those books. I person-
ally have no right to them.
The Chairman. Doesn't the executive committee of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee control the policy of that organization ?
Mr. Fast. It makes the policy of that organization.
The Chairjvian. And it employs the people who are employed by it,
doesn't it?
Mr. Fast. I don't know. I have never been consulted on the em-
ployment of any employee.
The Chairman. You mean to say that you have no opinion now
about whether or not you, as a member of that board, and the other
members of that board, could direct the employment of whoever works
for you. Is that what you mean to tell this committee ?
Mr. Fast. Frankly, I don't know.
The Chairman. Then I will ask you if you personally have made
any effort by consulting with the other members of the board, or ad-
vising with them about complying with this subpena? Have you
made any effort to do that ?
Mr. Fast. I don't understand your question.
The Chairman. Have you conferred with other members of the
board in an effort to comply with this subpena ? Did the board con-
sent unanimously, or a majority of them, consent to comply with this
subpena ?
Mr. Fast. The subpena was served upon me as an individual. As
an individual I was unable to comply with the request to produce those
books.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 21
The Chairman, Have you made any effort to get the other members
of the board to lielp you to produce them ?
Mr. Fast. But the subpena was served on me as an individual. It
would have been illegal for me as an individual to attempt to bring
those books.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question : If the majority of the
members of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee should take affirmative action to comply with that subpena,
it could be complied with, could it not — would it not?
Mr. Fast. I cannot say what would be the case if a majority of the
members had voted on that.
The Chairman. Then will you please tell us what authority can
doit?
Mr. Fast. You see there is no executive board meeting since that
subpena was served on me.
The CHiViRMAN. Then you have not made any effort to have one
called, have you ?
Mr. Fast. I personally saw no reason
The Chairman (interposing) . Just answer the question. Have you
made any effort to have one called ?
Mr. Fast. I could not call an executive board meeting.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you had
made any effort to do it ?
Mr. Fast. I saw no reason to.
The Chairman. Have you requested it?
]Mr. Fast. Requested what?
The Chairman. Requested a meeting of the board to discuss the
question, to discuss the matter.
Mr. Fast. No ; I did not request a meeting of the board.
The Chairman. That is a fair answer. Now I will ask you this
question : As a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee are you individually willing now to per-
mit this committee to have access to the documents called for in the
subpena that has been served on you ?
Mr. Fast. I don't think what I think at this moment is pertinent.
I don't think so.
The Chairman. I ask you now if you personally are willing. You
know whether you are or not.
Mr. Fast. You are asking for my state of mind, my thoughts on it.
I don't think that my individual thoughts are pertinent to the inquiry.
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer the question for that
reason ?
Mr. Fast. I didn't say that I declined to answer the question.
The Chairman. Will you say whether you do or not ?
Mr. Fast. I simpl}^ said that I don't think it is pertinent. If you
think it is pertinent, then I will go out and consult with my counsel.
The Chairman. How can your counsel help you to make up your
mind about it ?
Mr. Fast. He can tell me whether or not the question is pertinent,
which is all I want to knofv.
The Chairman. You are assuming that it is impertinent, aren't you?
Mr. Fast. Not impertinent ; nonpertinent.
The Chairman. That is not pertinent.
22 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
]Mr. Fast. I am not assuming so. I am simply saying I don't know
whether it is pertinent.
The Chairman. And for that reason you decline to answer?
Mr. Fast. I don't decline to answer.
The Chair^nean. Then please answer it.
Mr. Fast. I don't know whether it is pertinent or not.
Mr. Landis. We think it is.
The Chairman. We are not concerned about your opinion about it.
We want to know whether you are going to answer or whether you are
not.
Mr. Fast. You think it is pertinent ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Fast. Then I would ask for the privilege to go out and consult
with mj?^ counsel on whether it is a pertinent question.
The Chairman. The question is will you answer it or not? •
Mr. Fast. Before I make up my mind I would like to consult with
my counsel on whether it is pertinent.
The Chairman. Very well. Let him consult with counsel on that
one question.
(The witness retired from the hearing room for a few minutes.)
Mr. Fast. I will answer the question in this fashion — will 3'ou repeat
it?
The Chairman. Yes. The question asked you was whether or not
you noAv, as an individual member of the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, are willing for this committee of
the Congress to have access to the documents called for in the subpena
that has been served upon you ?
INIr. Rankin. Upon the board.
The Chairman. Upon you individually and upon the board, the
subpena that you have produced here. Are you willing as an indi-
vidual member of that board to permit this committee of Congress to
have access to those documents?
Mr. Fast. I can only say what I would do as a member of the
executive board at a meeting of the executive board itself, where there
is exchange of opinions and discussion. I would then arrive at a con-
clusion. I cannot arrive at such a decision sitting here in this room
as an individual.
INIr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman went out to consult his
attorney concerning a very specific question. I doubt whether, in the
opinioii of Benedict Wolf, the chairman's question was pertinent. Did
he say it was pertinent or did he say it was not pertinent?
Mr. Fast. He said "Answer it,"
Mr. MuNDT. Did he say it was pertinent or not pertinent? That is
what you wanted to ask him.
JNIr. Fast. I would have to go out and ask him again.
]Mr. MuNDT. You went out there to ask him that question.
(The witness retired from the hearing room for a few minutes.)
The Chairman. What did your counsel advise you ?
Mr. Fast. Counsel advised me that your question as to his thought
on the pertinence or nonpertinence of this matter is not pertinent.
The Chairman. And for that reason you decline to answer? Is
that right?
Mr. Fast. For that reason he declines to tell me.
Mr. MuNDT. Who declines to tell you what?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 23
Mr. Fast. He said it is not ]3ertinent, and that should be my re-
sponse.
Mr. MuNDT. I want to find out whether your hiwyer told you that
the chairman's question was pertinent or not pertinent. That is what
you went out to ask him.
Mr. Fast. Yes ; and he said that whether or not he told me it is
pertinent or not pertinent is not pertinent.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words, you now refuse to tell us whether or
not he told 3'ou the question was pertinent or not pertinent ?
Mr. Fast. I have repeated to 3^ou precisely what he said.
Mr. MuNDT. I am talking about you now. I want to know whether
your lawyer told you the question was pertinent or not pertinent; not
what the lawyer told you to tell us. Did your lawyer tell you that the
question was pertinent or was not pertinent i
Mr. Fast. I didn't ask him that question.
Mr. MuNDT. Go out and ask him. Find out. That is what you went
out for. You told us you were going out to ask him that question.
Mr. Fast. I did ask him now in this fashion, and he said 'Tt is not
pertinent for you to ask me this question."
The Chairman. The lawyer ruled- that your question was imperti-
nent to him? Is that right?
Mr. Fast. I have got a lawyer — do you want me to go out and ask
him again ?
The Chairman. You have consulted with your lawyer twice now.
Will you now please answer the question that I asked you, whether
or not you, as an individual member of the executive board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, are willing for this committee
o,f Congress to have access to the records called for in that subpena?
Mr. Fast. How can I answer as an individual unless I am acting
as a member in a board meeting?
The Chairman. Do you know when you are not at a board meeting?
Mr. Fast. I would know that at a board meeting, where there
would be exchange of opinion and discussion.
The Chairman. Do you know it here ?
Mr. Fast. I can't say here what I would do as a member of the
executive board. The policy of the executive board is for the board
meeting to make.
The Chairman. Can you say here whether or not you are willing
for us to see the books ?
Mr. Fast. No ; I can't say that. All I can say here is that I would
sit down in executive board meeting and arrive at an opinion.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question then : Would j^ou say
that you are willing for us to see them or do you decline to answer ?
Mr. Fast. How can I answer that question as an executive board
member? I have the right to discuss the matter with the executive
board and to come to a decision with the executive board, and that
decision is arrived at out of discussion, out of the exchange of opinions.
The Chairman. Then by that I understand you to mean that you
have made up your mind that you have not made up vour mind about it
at all? Is that right?
Mr. Fast. Well, again I would fall back on the fact that at our
executive board meeting
The Chairman (interposing). You know whether you have made
up your mind or not. Have you or have 3'ou not ?
24 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Fast. Well, I have made up my mind about the fact that Helen
Bryan is the legal custodian of our books.
The Chairman, I didn't ask you that question. I asked you
whether or not j^ou have made up your mind as to whether you are
willing, individually, you yourself, for us to see those records?
Mr. Fast. How can I as an individual decide whether you should
see these records ?
The Chaieman. I didn't ask you that question at all. I have asked
you whether you, as an individual, are willing for us to see them, as
an individual member of the board?
Mr. Fast. As an individual member, not as an individual of the
board, but as an individual person ?
The Chairman. As an individual member of the board are you
willing for us to see these records ?
Mr. Fast. As an individual member of the board I could not come
to a conclusion or decision on that question until I sat down at a board
meeting and discussed the matter very seriously.
The Chairman. When were you served with the subpena?
Mr. Fast. I believe it was Thursday morning, or Friday morning,
last week.
The Chairman. And this is Thursday of this week, so you had ap-
proximately a week since you were served until you appeared here in
conformity with the subpena.
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. During that week have you made any effort to make
up your mind about it ?
Mr. Fast. During that week there was no meeting of the executive
board.
The Chairman. Have you made any attempt to have a meeting of
the executive board ?
Mr. Fast. I don't call meetings.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. I asked you have you made
any effort to have one called ?
Mr. MuNDT. He answered that previously. He said "No," he had
not.
Mr. Fast. Do you want me to answer it again ?
The Chairman. I don't think you have answered it.
Mr. Fast. As an individual I did not take steps to have a meeting
of the executive board called.
Mr. Landis. Let me ask this question : Who prepared this statement
you have here ?
Mr. Fast. My counsel, Benedict Wolf.
Mr. Landis. And did you have a meeting that prepared the state-
ment? Did you have a meeting on this prepared statement?
Mr. Fast. A meeting on the preparation of those statements, a meet-
ing of the executive board ?
Mr. Landis. No, just a meeting to have the papers drawn up or any-
thing about it? Was there a meeting to discuss it or anvthing?
Mr. Fast. Once the statement was prepared, Mr. Wolf discussed the
statement with each of us, sometimes with individuals, and sometimes
with several others together.
Mr. Landis. Was that last week or this week? Do you recall?
Mr. Fast. That was this week.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 25
Mr. Rankin. You know that these are all just typewritten copies of
the same statement?
Mr. Fast. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rankin. Written by your lawyer, who has never been before
this committee at all, so you are just coming in here and asking to read
a typewritten statement written by your lawyer, aren't you?
Mr. Fast, No; that becomes my statement when I agree with it.
Mr. Rankin. I understand, but it was written by your lawyer and
you know it was written by your lawyer, and he gave all the rest of
the board a copy of it and sent them in here to read the statement,
didn't he?
Mr. Fast. For me to make a statement I don't have to write it my-
self. I read and I agree with that statement.
Mr. Rankin. I understand. I just want to get it into the record
to show that some lawyer on the outside wrote all these answers for you
witnesses and sent them in here to try to read a statement to this
committee.
Mr. Fast. Not a lawyer on the outside. My own counsel prepared
the statement, Mr. Benedict Wolf.
Mr. Rankin. He wrote all these answers, didn't he ?
Mr. Fast. He prepared my statement.
Mr. Rankin. Have you compared your statement with the others?
Mr. Fast. I have not gone to the trouble of comparing them.
Mr. Adamson. It is true they are all the same. All of them are just
exactly the same, carbon copies of the same statement.
Mr. Rankin. Some lawyer prepared them for you and sent you
witnesses in here to read them, all of you to read the same statement ?
Mr. Fast. No lawyer sent me in here. He is my lawyer and my
counsel.
Mr. Thomas. What is your lawyer's address ?
Mr. Fast. 160 Broadway.
Mr. Lanis. If Miss Helen Bryan is the custodian of those books
and records, as a member of the board would you be willing for her
to give us access to these books, records, and papers ?
Mr. Fast. The executive board sometimes advises Helen Bryan to
consult with counsel and to take steps within the limits of the law
to protect the books.
The Chairman. That is not in response to the question that was
asked you. The question was asked you whether or not you, as a mem-
ber of the executive board, would now be willing to direct Miss Bryan
to permit this committee to inspect the records?
Mr. Fast. I answered the question by giving the last formal de-
cision of the executive board.
The Chairman. And you still conform to that?
Mr. Fast. There has not been another meeting since that.
The Chairman. I am asking about you. I am not asking about
the board.
Mr. Fast. I said before that these decisions are arrived at out of
discussion and argument at meetings of the executive board.
The Chairman. You recognize the fact, of course, that you are
under oath, don't you ?
Mr. Fast. I certainly do.
26 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. And have you got now any opinion at all about
your attitude with reference to the production of these books to this
committee of Congress?
Mr. Fast. I don't think my opinions are pertinent to this inquiry.
The Chairman. For that "reason you decline to answer that ques-
tion 'i
Mr. Fast. I have not said that I decline to answer it.
The Chairman. Then do you decline?
]Mr. Fast. I don't think that my personal opinion is pertinent to the
inquiry.
Mr. Lanis. If you had a vote, would you vote to instruct Miss Bryan
to give us access to these records ?
Mr. Fast. I don't know how I woidd vote because I do not have
any preconceived notions before going into an executive-board meet-
ing.
The Chairman. You don't know how you would vote?
Mr. Fast. That's right. I don't know how I would vote, and I
wouldn't know and couldn't know until I arrived at the executive
board meeting and discussed the matter with the members of the exec-
utive board formally.
The Chairman. Can you tell us who you think could make up your
mind about it ?
Mr. Fast. Who could make up my mind? I could make up my
mind.
The Chairman. Will you try to do it for us here and now?
Mr. Fast. But I just said I would not make up and could not make
up my mind on that question, which I regard as a very serious ques-
tion, unless there w^ere fi meeting of the executive board.
The Chairman. So then, until a meeting of the executive board is
called, you would not say that you would be willing now for us to
see the books ?
Mr. Fast. Until such a meeting is called I cannot give a definite
answer on a very serious question.
The Chairman. Very well. I think that is all.
Mr. Adamson. Let ine ask you one question. Is there some authority
or secret power that is above the executive board, that controls the
custody of these books, papers, and records?
INIr. Fast. I cannot think who you are referring to, unless it is God.
Mr. Adamson. I am asking you. Do you know of any?
Mr. Fast. I know of no authoritv in the terms vou describe except
God.
Mr. Adamson. So the executive board is the supreme power with
regard to these books, papers, and records ?
Mr. Fast. I would say so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. That's all.
The Chairman. You are excused.
(Mr. Fast submitted the following paper :)
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear
and testify and to produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control. I
individually do not have iX)ssession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The b<H)ks. records, and
correspondence of the .Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the possession,
custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not have
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 27
either in my possession, custody, or control the boolvS. records, and documents
described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce them.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Mrs. Ernestina G. Fleiscliman.
Mr. Rankin. I am going to make a suggestion to the committee. I
am of the opinion that these prepared statements ought to go into the
record to show tliat they are all the same thing, just carbon copies.
Every single witness that has appeared here lias submitted the same
statement. AVhat do you say, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. I think they should go in ; j^es.
Mr. Adamson. I will call James Lustig.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES LUSTIG, LONG ISLAND CITY, N. Y.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Lustig, will you give your name and residence
address ?
Mr. Lustig. I would like to l:a\e my lawyer in here.
Mr. xIdamson. Give your name and address to the reporter first, so
we can identif}^ you.
Mr. Lustig. James Lustig, 2107 Forty-seventh Avenue, Long Island
City, N. Y.
The Chairman. Mr. Lustig, during these hearings the committee
policy has uniformly been that we do not permit lawyers in the com-
mittee room during executive sessions. If during the course of your
examination any matter arises involving legal questions about which
you desire to consult your counsel, you can go out and consult him.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Mr. Lustig, were you served with a subpena
from this committee, directing your apj)earance here today and direct-
ing you to produce books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee?
Mr. Lustig. I was.
Mr. Adamson. And Avhere were you served with the subpena?
Mr. Lustig. In AVashington, D. C.
Mr. Adamson. Have you got the copy that was left with you ? [The
witness produced the subpena.]
Mr. Chairman. I offer this as part of the record in connection with
the testimony of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena served on James Lustig follows :)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon James Lustig, Burlington Hotel, Ver-
mont Avenue and Thomas Circle, Washington, D. C, a member of the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the
Un-American Activities Committee of the House of Representatives of the United
States, of which the Honorable John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you
all books, ledgers, records, and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of
money by or on account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any
subsidiary or subcommittee thereof, together with all correspondence and mem-
oranda of communications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign
countries. The said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the
28 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
period from January 1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in their
chamber in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m.,
then and there to testify touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee;
and he is not to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 3d day of April 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Cabkinqton, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Mr. Lustig, are you a citizen of the United
States ?
Mr. Lustig. Yes, I am.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a native-born citizen or naturalized?
Mr. Lustig. Naturalized.
Mr. Adamson. Where did you come from originally ?
Mr. Lustig. From Hungary.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been here ?
Mr. Lustig. Since 1921.
Mr. Adamson. How old are you now ?
Mr. Lustig. Forty-three.
Mr. Adamson. Wlien were you naturalized ?
Mr. Lustig. In 1928.
Mr. Adamson. At what point?
Mr, Lustig. In New York City.
Mr. Adamson. And you have been a resident of the New York area
ever since?
Mr. Lustig. That's right.
Mr. Adamson. What form of business are you in, Mr. Lustig?
Mr. Lustig. I am representing the United Electrical Radio Ma-
chine Workers of America in the form of district representative.
Mr. Adamson. You say "district representative." Are you an
organizer or one of the executive officials? What do you call that?
Mr. Lustig. I dm a representative of the union. I am not doing
any organizing. My job is not organizing. My job is to negotiate
agreements and things of that sort.
Mr. Mundt. Which district?
Mr. Lustig. District 4, New York and northern New Jersey.
Mr. Adamson. Wlien you say "New York" do you mean New York
City or New York State ?
Mr. Lustig. Metropolitan New York.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a member of the executive board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Lustig. I am.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member of the board?
Mr. Lustig. I believe a year ago.
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barsky, your chairman, has previously testified
before the committee that when he was served with a subpena some
time ago, directing him to produce books, papers, and records of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, he laid the matter before
your executive board, and that the executive board voted, instructed
him to refuse to produce the books and papers in compliance with
that subpena. I want to ask you if you participated in that meeting?
Mr. Lustig. I was not present at the meeting.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 29
Mr. Adamson. Did you participate in the meeting by voting tln-mgh
a proxy or in some other manner ?
Mr. LusTiG. I beUeve I voted on this particular subject matter.
Mr. Adamson. How did you vote 'i By telephone ?
Mr. LusTiG. I believe so.
Mr. Adamsoist. You mean that someone called you up from the
office and you told them how you voted ?
Mr LusTiG. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And do you remember who it was called you and
told you about it?
Mr. LuSTiG. No ; I do not.
Mr. Adamson. Was it someone that you recognized as being a person
fiuthorized.to talk from the office?
]Mr. LusTiG. I understood that somebody from the committee w^as
on the other side of the wire, and I expressed my opinion about the
subject matter.
Mr. Adamson. Will you tell us now what was your action on the
matter that you expressed to them over the telephone?
Mr. LiTSTiG. I believe the vote was unanimous. That is obvious
how I voted.
Mr. Adamson. Now, I want to ask you if you have produced here
today the books, papers, and records called for by the subpena which
Avas served upon you?
Mv. LusTiG. In relation to that, I have a written answer which I
would like to read.
The Ciiair^ian. Mr. Lustig, I will make this statement to you : We
are putting all of those in the record. They are all in the record.
Mr. LusTiG. You wish me to read it ?
Tlie Chairman. They will all be in the record.
Mr. Thomas. Let him read it.
The Chairman. We are going to put it in the record.
Mr. Rankin. I will say to you, Mr. Lustig, a copy of the same
statement, which they say was written by a lawyer for them, has
been submitted by the other witnesses.
IMr. Lustig. So I understand.
Mr. Kankin. In other words, your testimony is just a statement by
a lawyer written on the outside.
The Chairman. Let me interrogate him about that, if I may.
Where did you get the statement that you are about to read ?
Mr. Lustig. I don't think that is material.
Mr. MuNDT. Other witnesses said they got it from Benedict Wolf.
You have the same thing?
Mr. Lustig. I must not testify in behalf of anybody else but myself.
Mr. MuNDT. I am asking you whether your attorney, Mr. Benedict
Wolf, prepared it.
Mr. Lustig. He is the legal counsel.
The Chairman. Would you mind saying whether or not he pre-
pared the statement ?
Mr. Lustig. I don't think tliat is material to the issue.
The Chairman. You decline to answer that question ?
Mr. Lustig. Yes.
85148—46 3
30 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Now you may read it.
Mr. LusTiG (reading) :
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear
and testify and to produce certain hoolvs, records, and corresixnidence of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control.
I individually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the posses-
sion, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not
have either in my possession, custody, or control the books, records, and docu-
ments described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce
them.
Mr. Rankix. Now, j\Ir. Chairman, I want the record to show that
this is a verbatim copy of the statement that has been offered by the
other witnesses.
Mr. LusTiG. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, whether I am requested to
hand tliat statement over to you?
The Chairman. Oh, yes ; we are going to put it in the record.
Mr. Rankin. You liave read it. It now belongs to the committee.
Now, who wrote that ?
Mr. LusTiG. I can't answer.
Mr. Rankin. He is in contempt if lie doesn't answer that, Mr. Chair-
man. You decline to answer the question?
Mr. LusTiG. Because I don't think it is material.
Mr. RvNKiN. That is all right. We don't care what you think
about it.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Lustig, who controls the policy of the
Joint x^nti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Lustig. The board.
The Chairman. There is 'no higher authority than the board of
directors, the executive board, is there ?
]Mr. Lustig. There is not.
The Chairman. In fact, there is no other authority at all except the
board of directors?
Mr. Lustig. That is correct.
The Chairman. I want to ask you as an individual member of the
executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, whether
or not you are now willing to give your consent, as a member of that
board, your individual consent as a member of that board, to making
available these records called for in this subpena that was served on
you, making those records available to the committee?
Mr. Lustig. I believe that question is not pertinent to the subject
matter.
The Chairman. I just want to find out whether you will answer it
or whether you decline to answer it.
Mr. Lustig. ]My answer is that the question is not pertinent.
The Chairman. For that reason you decline to answer it?
Mr. Lustig. That is right.
The Chairman. That is all.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Lustig, you said you came to this country in 1921?"
Mr. Lustig. That is correct.
Mr. Mundt. And was naturalized in 1924?
Mr. Lustig. No; in 1928.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 31
Mr. MuNDT. Have you ever been a candidate for public office in the
United States?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't believe that is a question pertinent to the subject
matter under discussion.
Mr. MuNDT, I am asking you that question.
]\Ir. LusTOG. That is my answer.
Mr. MuNDT. You refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. LusTiG. M}' answer is that it is not pertinent to the inquiry.
The Chairman. And the question now is, Do you decline to answer
for the reasons you have given, on account of the reasons you have
given, that it is not pertinent ? You decline to answer for that reason I
Mr. LusTiG. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you a brother by the name of Bela Lustig?
Mr. LusTiG. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Is he in the United States?
Mr. LusTiG. No; he is not.
Mr. MuNDT. Where is he, in the Western Hemisphere?
Mr. LusTiG. No ; he is not. fte is in Hungary.
Mr. MuNDT. Has he ever made application for admission to the
United States?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't think that question is pertinent to the inquiry.
Mr. MuNDT, Do you decline to answer it for that reason ?
Mr. LusTiG. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you another brother by the name of Herman
Lustig ?
Mr. Lustig. No.
The Chairman. Let me ask you in that connection — this might b©
pertinent — as a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee did you participate in any activities of
that board looking toward the bringing of your brother into tliis
country ?
Mr. Lustig. Yes; of course.
The Chairman. And was the board successful in obtaining his
entrance ?
Mr. Lustig. The fact that he is in Hungary is the answer that the
board was not successful ?
The Chairman. The board was unsuccessful ?
Mr. Lustig. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know why they were unsuccessful ?
^Ir. Lustig. No.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't know the reason given?
Mr. Lustig. No. I wish I did know. Maybe you gentlemen can
inform me,
Mr. Thomas. I would like to ask a question there. Are you a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lustig. I don't think that question is pertinent to the inquiry,
]Mr. Thomas. Well, one of the things we are investigating, that this
committee is investigating, is un-American activities, communismy,
fascism, nazism. I think that is a very pertinent question.
Mr. Lustig. Well, tliat is your opinion. My opinion is that it is
not pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. You decline then to say whether you are a member
of the Communist Party?
32 ■ UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. LusTiG. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Isn't it true that you did run as a Communist for
public office ?
Mr. LusTiG. I answered that question, I believe, 5 minutes ago.
Mr. Thomas. Not that exact question ; no.
Mr. LusTiG. It was exactly the same question. It is one of a dif-
ferent fashion.
Mr. Thomas. If I should say it was true, would you deny it?
Mr. LuSTiG. The answer to the question is that it is not pertinent
to the inquiry.
Mr. Thomas. Well, if I should say it was true would you deny it?
Mr. LuSTiG. I would not deny it or sustain it.
Mr. Thomas. How long have you been a representative of the union
which you referred to before?
Mr. LusTiG. Since the very inception of the organization.
Mr. Thomas. What was that date?
Mr. LusTiG. Under the present namg, 10 years.
Mr. Thomas. What are your duties with that union ?
Mr. LusTiG. What I explained at the beginning of the questioning.
I am negotiating agreements, and I have been called in by local unions
when they have certain problems in regard to hours and wages.
The CHAHiMAN. Now, you stated, as I understand, that under the
present name the union has been in existence for 10 years. What was
its name before that time ?
Mr. LusTiG. The International Association of Machinists.
The Chairman. How long did it exist under that title?
Mr. LusTiG. Oh, 6 months, or so.
The Chairman. Were you connected with it under that name be-
fore it changed its name ?
Mr. LusTiG. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bonner. Do you have some personal reasons why these books
should not be shown to this committee?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't think that any personal matter enters into my
judgment in relation to the affairs of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee.
Mr. Bonner. You voted not to show the records to the committee,
did you ?
Mr. LuSTiG. I think the question — I voted for the resolution that
I believe is in the possession of the committee.
Mr. Bonner. No; it is not. The committee has been denied access
to the minutes of that meeting and the resolution.
Mr. LusTiG. Well, you know the contents of the resolution.
Mr. Adamson. No ; we do not.
Mr, LusTiG. I believe it was explained, and my understanding of
that particular motion was that Dr. Barsky is not to show the books
because he is not custodian of the books, and we don't deem it ad-
visable to change the custodian at the present time.
Mr. Landis. Did you know that Helen Bryan was subpenaed to
produce the books and papers?
Mr. LusTiG. I know that.
Mr. Landis. Would you be in favor of her giving us access to the
books and papers?
Mr. LusTKJ. It is up to her. I don't think I can speak in her
behalf. I think she is able to speak for herself.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 33
The Chairman. Mr. Liistig, in this connection you testified that
the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee was
the supreme authority of the committee and the only authority?
Mr. LusTiG. That's right.
The Chairman. That board can control the custodianship of your
records in any way you want to ; can they not ?
Mr. LusTiG. I believe it is also known to this committee as to
what
The Chairman (interposing). Just answer the question. They
can control it?
Mr. LuSTiG. We have decided
The Chairman (interposing). No; I say the committee can con-
trol it?
Mr. LusTiG. I cannot answer that question.
The Chairman. Your executive board can control it? You can
take them out and burn them up if you want to, can't > ou ?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't believe so ; no, sir. That is absolutely wrong.
We are functioning, as you well know, under the president's control
board, and certainly
The Chairman (interposing). The board designated Miss Bryan as
the custodian, you say ?
IVIr. LusTiG. That is correct.
The Chairman. They have authority to withdraw that if they
want to ?
Mr. LuSTiG. Withdraw it?
The Chairman. Withdraw the delegation of authority to her to
control it.
Mv. LusTiG. I suppose so.
The Chairman, And give it to anybody else you want to ?
Mr. LusTiG. I suppose so.
Mr. Landis. Did the board have anything to do with giving Helen
Bryan possession of the papers so that they could not produce them?
Mr. LuSTiG. To 1113^ knowledge there was no decision made either
way.
Mr. Adamson. You only voted, then, on the question of Dr. Barsky?
Mr. LusTiG. That is right.
Mr. Adamson. Not Miss Bryan ?
Mr, LusTiG. That is right.
Mr. Bonner.. Does she have the authority to show the records to
this committee?
Mr. LusTiG. She has the advice of the board as to her behavior in
relation to the records.
Mr. Bonner. In other wordsj if she were asked to show the books,
she would have to come to you and the other members to get permis-
sion to show them ?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't believe so.
Mr. Bonner. She doesn't have to do that?
Mr. LusTiG. Well, you see, it is neither one way nor the other, the
way you place it. She has to consult the legal attorney of the organ-
ization to find out as to what her behavior is to be.
Mr. Bonner. Not behavior ?
Mr. LusTiG. Her action.
Mr. Bonner. Wliether she can do this or not ?
Mr. LusTiG. Yes.
34 UN-AMERICAH PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Bonner. She would have to consult you and the other inembers
■of the board ?
Mr. LusTiG. She has to consult the legal counsel.
The Chairman. He is employed by the board ?
Mr. LusTiG. The legal counsel ?
Tlie Chairman. Yes.
Mr. LusTiG. I am not quite sure about it, but I think
The Chairman (interposing) . Don't you know he would not be here
if he was not employed by you ?
Mr. LusTiG. Whether he is employed or whether he volunteers his
services, I am not familiar with that.
The Chairman. He represents your board?
Mr. LusTiG. I presume he does.
Mr. Mtjndt. What is the name of this attorney ?
Mr. LusTiG. Mr. Wolf.
Mr. MuNDT. What is his first name ?
Mr. LusTiG. Benedict Wolf,
Mr. Thomas. What is his address ?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't know.
The Chairman. And if the attorney should give advice contrary
to the wishes of the board, you have authority to dispense with his
services and get somebody else, don't you ?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't know. We will have to cross that bridge when
we get there.
The Chairman. Don't you know that in the light of the testimony
you have already given, the board is the supreme authority in reference
to this organization, that you can hire and fire anybody you want to ?
Don't you know that as a fact?
Mr. LusTiG. Well, I have testified in the very beginning, to my
knowledge the board is the highest authority in the organization.
The "Chairman. Then I ask if you don't know as a fact that the
board can employ whatever counsel they want to, and if the counsel
that you do employ does not conform to the wishes of the board, they
can dispense with his services any time they want to? You know
that, don't you ?
Mr. LusTiG. Probably so.
The Chairman. Don't you know that ? Under your oath don't you
know it is true ?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't know whether that is pertinent to the inquiry.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. 1 asked you if you don't
know that as a fact ?
Mr. LusTiG. I suppose the board can choose its own lawyers, like
every other board.
The Chairman. Very well. Are there any further questions?
Mr. Bonner. Has the lawyer during his service any more authority
than the board ?
Mr. LusTiG. I don't think that question is pertinent.
Mr. Bonner. That is your old fall-back. That is all you resort to,
as to whether or not a matter is pertinent. I am just asking you for
information.
Mr. LusTiG. You have to fall back to something some time.
Mr. Bonner. To evade answering the questions.
Mr. LusTiG. I don't know whether it is evasive or otherwise.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 35
Mr. Bonner. Certainly it is. I Avant to be fair with you. I am
trying to find out myself.
Mr. LusTiG. That question was never discussed m our board, so i
don't really know. . t -,
Mr. Bonner. That is not the question, whether it was ever discussed
in your board or not. We are sitting liere just like two American cit-
izens I suppose you, as an American citizen, are loyal to this country ;
I know I am, and I hope you have the same interest in tliis country
that I have. I merely asked you that question to try to find out my-
self who does have the authority, and you evade the question. That
is the only reason I asked you. 'You apparently are trying to shadow
my statement when you resort to subterfuge. Every witness that has
been in here has resorted to that same means instead of answering the
questions. They use the same language you have used. It sounds
like you have all been coached. It doesn't sound right that every-
body would come in here— it isn't consistent that everyone would come
in here and have the same language and give the same answers.
Mr. LusTiG. No comment to make.
Mr. Bonner. No ; I am sure you do not.
The Chairman. That's all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Mrs. Ruth Leider.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. RUTH LEIDER, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and address to the re-
porter
Mrs. Leider. Before I give my name and address, may I have the
right to have counsel present?
Mr. Adamson. No; give your name and address to the reporter, so
we can identify you.
Mrs. Leider. My name is Mrs. Ruth Leider, 60 Sidney Place, Brook-
lyn, N. Y. "^ . .
Mr. Adamson. And what business or profession are you in, Mrs.
Leider ?
Mrs. Leider. I am a lawyer.
Mr. Adamson. Where is your office?
Mrs. Leider. My office is at 565 Fifth Avenue, New York City.
Mr. Adamson. And you are a practicing attorney and member of
the Bar of the State of New York?
Mrs. Leider. I am. May I repeat my request about my attorney?
The Chairman. Mrs. Leider, the policy of this 'committee is not to
permit attorneys to accompany witnesses in the executive sessions. If
it develops during the course of the examination that any questions
are asked you involving legal matters which you do not feel competent
to yourself, as an attorney, pass upon, 3^011 have permission to go out
and consult your counsel.
Mrs. Leider. Thank you.
Mr. Adamson. First I want to ask you if ^ou are here in compliance
with a subpena served upon you by this committee, calling for the
production of books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee?
36 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Leider. I am here in conformity with the subpena.
Mr. Adamson. Do you have the copy of the subpena served upon
you ?
Mrs. Leider. Yes, I do [producing the subpena].
Mr, Adamson. I offer this, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the
testimony of this witness, the same as the other witnesses.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena served on Mrs. Ruth Leider follows: )
COPY
By Authokity of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or his sijccial messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mrs. Ruth Leider, 565 Fifth Avenue,
New York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which the
Honorable .John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers,
records and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on
account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or
subcommittee thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of
communications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign counti'ios.
The said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the period from
January 1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in their chamber
in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and
there to testify touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee ; and
she is not to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of :March 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest: John W. Caerington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Mrs. Leider, are you a member of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Mrs. Leider. I am.
Mr. Adamson. And how long have you been a member of the board ?
Mrs. LEmER. About 2 years.
Mr. Adamson. And are you a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. Leider. I am.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a native-born citizen ?
Mrs. Leider. I ara.
Mr. Adamson. I take it of New York City ?
Mrs. Leider. New York City.
Mr. Adamson. Have you produced here today, in compliance with
the subpena, the books, papers, and records called for, of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mrs. LEmER. In answer to that question I should like to read the
following statement :
I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and testify and to
produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee in my possession; custody, and control. I individually do
not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material requested in
the subpena which was served«ipon me. Tlie books, records, and correspondence
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the possession, custody, and
control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our organization, and
she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not have either in my
possession, custody, or control the books, records, and documents described in
the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce them.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITrES , 37
The Chairman. Will you let me have the statement you have just
read ? [The witness handed the paper to the chairman.]
For the information of the witness the Chair will state that similar
statements to this have been submitted, and been accepted by the com-
mittee from all the other witnesses. I will not say "similar." I mean
identical.
Mr. Adamson. Mrs. Leider, your chairman, Dr. Barsky, has testi-
fied previously here that when he was served with a subpena at a prior
date to produce the books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee, he laid the matter before the executive
board, and the executive board voted unanimously to instruct him
not to produce the books, papers, and records in answer to the sub-
pena. I want to ask you if you participated in that meeting of the
executive board, either in person or by proxy or telephone or some
other way ?
Mrs. Leider. I participated in that meeting.
Mr. Adamson, Were you present personally?
Mrs. Leider. I was present personally.
Mr. Adamson. And I assume that it was unanimous, that you voted
in the affirmative ?
Mrs. LEroER. The decision of the board was unanimous.
Mr. Bonner. Mrs. Leider, you are a highly intelligent person.
Mrs. Leider. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Bonner. Why did somebody else have to prepare your state-
ment ?
Mrs. Leider. That question, I think, is not a pertinent question to
this inquiry.
Mr. Bonner. Why do you folks all use the same word "pertinent"?
Mrs. Leider. I use the word because it is applicable to this situation.
Mr. Bonner. But you still think that you could have made just as
good an answer as somebody else prepared for you ?
Mrs. Leider. That too I consider not pertinent to the inquiry.
The Chairman. And by that I assume you decline to answer, for
the reason you have given, that it is not pertinent?
Mrs. Leider. That is right.
The Chairman. You say you have been a member of the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee for how long?
Mrs. Leider. Approximately 2 years.
The Chairman. How long has the committee been in existence?
Mrs. Leider. I believe, to the best of my recollection, the committee
came into existence in 1942.
The Chairman. So it had been operating for some time before you
came into it?
Mrs. Leider. Yes.
The Chairman. The executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee is the authority that passes on policy and controls
activities of the committee?
Mrs. Leider. Yes.
The Chairman. Including the employment of whatever personnel
is employed by the committee ?
Mrs. Leider. That I cannot answer unequivocally, because it is my
belief that some of the employees are hired by Miss Bryan. *
Mr. Chairman. But the board could veto any action Miss Bryan
takes if they wanted to do it?
38 • UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Leider. Possibly.
The Chairman. Don't you know it us a fact ?
]\Irs. Leider. I do not know it as a fact.
The Chairiman. Have you known of any instance when Miss Bryan
has refused to comply with the action of the board, the executive
board?
Mrs. Leider. Of my own personal knowledge, I do not.
The Chairman. Is there any other authority higher than this execu-
tive board?
Mrs. Leider. I do not believe so.
The Chairman. Do you know of any ?
Mrs. Leider. I do not.
The Chairman. As an individual member of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are you individually
willing today to permit this committee of the Congress to have access
to the documents called for in the subpena served on you?
Mrs. Leider. I don't know as an individual in connection with the
committee. We act as a board.
The Chairman. I am asking you what your individual view of it
is now. Are you willing, have you got any objection to it ?
Mrs. Leider. I do not believe that my individual opinion is perti-
nent to the inquiry. We act as a board.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you about what j'our opinion was
about it. I asked you what your view of it is, what your position is
now ?
Mrs. Leider. I don't think that is a pertinent question.
The Chairman. And for that reason you decline to answer?
Mrs. Leider. I decline to answer for that reason.
The Chairman. Very well. Are there aii}^ other questions? You
are excused.
(Witness excused.) •
Mr. Adamson. I will call ]\Irs. Fleischman.
TESTIMONY OF MES. EENESTINA G. FLEISCHMAN, NEW YOEK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and your residence address
to the re]3orter?
Mrs. Fleischman. Ernestina G. Fleischman, 1 Columbus Avenue,
New York City.
Mr. Adamson. And what business or profession are you engaged
in, Mrs. Fleischman ?
Mrs. Fleischman. None. No business.
Mr. Adamson. And yo uare here in compliance with a subpena
served upon you by this committee calling for the production of the
books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Com-
mittee? Is that correct?
The Chairman. You will have to speak up so we can hear j^ou. You
were asked if you are appearing here under a subpena served on you.
Were you ? Did you have a subpena served on you ?
IMrs. Fleischman. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you got it with you? [The witness produced
the subpena.]
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 39
Mr. Adamson. I offer tins as part of the testimony of this witness,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Let it go in.
(The subpena served on Mrs. Ernestina G. Fleischman follows :)
COPY
By Authority of the House of RErRESENTATivEs of the Congress of the Unitei>
States of America
To the Sergeant at Arins, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mrs. Ernestina G. Fleischman, "Voice
of Fighting Spain," 1 Columbus Avenue, New York City, a member of the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the
Un-American Activities Committee of the House of Representatives of the United
States, of which the Honorable John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you
all books, ledgers, records, and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of
money by or on account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any
subsidiary or subcommittee thereof, together with all correspondence and memo-
randa of communications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign coun-
tries. The said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the period
from January 1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in their
chamber in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., thea
and there to testify touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee;,
and she is not to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, Clxaimmn.
Attest :
John W. Carrington, Cleric.
Mr. Adamson. You are here in answer to that subpena? Is that
correct ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And you are a native-born citizen ?
Mrs. Fleischman. No.
Mr. Adamson. Where did you come from to the United States I
Mrs. Fleischman. I came from Spain. I was born in Burgos,
Spain.
]Mr. Adamson. How long have jou been in the United States ?
Ivlrs. Fleischman. First I came in 1926. Then I went back and
forth to Spain and New York, so I don't know the length of my stay
time.
Mr. Adamson. When did you make the last trip from Spain to thft
United States?
Mrs. Fleischman. That trip was made in 1939.
Mr. Adamson. When were jow made a citizen of the United States'?
Mrs. Fleischman. In 1941.
Mr. Adamson. Was that in New York?
Mrs. Fleischman. At New York City.
Mr. Adamson. Have you produced here today the books, papers, and
records that were called for by the subpena ?
Mrs. Fleischman (reading) :
I individually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the
material requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, rec-
40 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ords, and correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the
possession, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary
of our organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do
not have either in my possession, custody, or control the boolvs, records, and
documents described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to
produce them.
Mr. Bonner. How many times have 3^011 read that over before?
Mrs. Fleischman. I don't remember.
Mr. Bonner. Just approximately how many? Six or eight?
Mrs. Fleischman. Two or three times.
Mr. Landis. Did you write it? Did you write the statement vour-
self?
Mrs. Fleischman. I don't think it is pertinent.
Mr. Bonner. She is like the others.
Mrs. Fleischman. May I consult my lawyer?
Mr. Bonner. You don't need to. I am not going to ask you any
legal questions.
Mr. Landis. You ought to know whether you wrote it or not ; if that
is your statement, whether somebody gave it to you or whether you
wrote it. You should know that.
Mrs. Fleischman. I have to ask to consult my lawyer.
The Chairman. All the other witnesses have testified that an
attorney by the name of Wolf prepared this statement. Do you con-
form with that ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Attorney Mr. Wolf. He is the attorney.
The Chairman. We have the statements that all of them have
brought in here so far. They are the same as you make. They are all
identical, so the same party must have prepared them all.
Mrs. Fleischman. Well, I think I should like to consult my lawyer.
Mr. Bonner. I want to ask you one more question, then I am not
going to ask you anything further. You all got together and had these
statements distributed to you when you were in a little group together?
Mrs. Fleischman. Can I consult my lawyer about that?
Mr. Bonner. It don't make any difference what your lawyer says.
Mr. MuNDT. You know whether that is true or not.
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult my lawyer.
Mr. Bonner. You have got a good mind. I can see that. You can
remember whether he handed this to you individually or whether you
got together in a group.
Mrs. Fleischman. I like to consult my lawyer.
Mrs. Bonner. I think you have got just as much sense as he has.
You don't need to answer the question if jon don't want to.
Mrs. Fleischman. I need legal advice.
The Chairman. You mean you need legal advice to determine
what the truth is ?
Mrs. Fleischiman. I like to consult my counsel about it.
The Chairman. For you to determine what the facts are?
Mrs. Fleischman. No ; I want to consult my counsel.
The Chairjvian. For what purpose ?
Mrs. Fleischman. For the purpose of what the gentleman asked
me.
The Chairman. But what do you want to ask your lawyer ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Will you repeat the question ?
The Chairman. I want to know what you want to ask your lawyer.
The question was if that statement was prepared by Mr. Wolf?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 41
Mrs. Fleischman. Well, I want to consult my lawyer on that.
The Chair3Ian, Don't you know ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult my lawyer.
The Chairjvian. Don't you know?
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult my lawyer.
The Chairman. If you know, you don't need to considt your
lawyer.
Mrs. Fleischman. I want to consult my lawyer. Physically I
didn't write the statement.
The Chairman. You didn't write it?
Mrs. Fleischman. 1 didn't write it physically, but I would like
to consult my lawyer.
The Chairman. That is all we want to know, whether you wrote
it or not.
Mr. Landis. Who gave you this statement?
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult my lawyer.
The Chairman. About that?
Mr. Landis. About who gave it to you ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult mv lawyer.
Mr. McNDT. What about ?
Mrs. Fleischman. About the things you have asked me.
Mr. Thomas. I will ask you a question you won't need to consult
your lawyer about. You won't have to consult your lawyer on this
because only you know the answer.
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult my lawyer.
Mr. Thomas. Wait a minute. You haven't heard the question yet.
Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
I\rrs. Fleischman. I don't think that is pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. At least you don't have to consult 3-our lawyer on
that.
Mrs. Fleischman. Well, I think the question is not pertinent, but
if you say it is pertinent, then 1 should like to consult my lawyer.
Mr, Thomas. But he doesn't know the answer to that question.
Oidy you know that.
Mrs. Fleischman. I should like to consult my lawyer.
Mr. Thomas. If I say that you are a member of the Communist
Party, would you deny it?
Mrs. Fleischman. I say that is not pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. Well, I happen to know that you are a member of the
Communist Party.
Mrs. Fleischman, I should like to repeat that is not pertinent to
the case.
Mr. Thomas. I am not asking you a question now.
INIrs, Fleischman. I am not a member of it.
Mr. Thomas. You are not a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Fleischman, I am not.
Mr. Thomas. Now remember, if we should find out that you are a
member of the Communist Pai'ty, it would mean you have not an-
swered the question eorrectl}^
Mrs. Fleischman, I will have to answer, I say that it is not perti-
nent, but if you insist that it is, I am not.
Mr. Thomas. You are not a member of the Communst Party?
Mrs. Fleischman. That is right.
42 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
]Mr. MuNDT. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mrs. Fleischman. That is not pertinent.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you want to deny it or not ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I say that is not pertinent.
Mr, MuNDT. In other words j'Ou used to be a member of the Com-
munist Party but you are not at the moment?
Mrs. Fleischman. That is not pertinent.
Mr. MuNDT. You say you are no longer a member of the party, so
apparently you used to be one.
Mrs. Fleischman. I repeat that is not pertinent.
Mr. Bonner. What is your definition of the word "pertinent"?
Mrs. Fleischman. Pertinent is for the question, to my knowledge,
which is not very large in the English language, I say pertinent, when
a question does not fit to the case, when that is not going to the case,
it is not pertinent.
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question that is pertinent. Dr.
Barsky is the chairman of your board, isn't he?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
The Chairman. And you are a member of the executive board of
the Joint Anti-Fascist Re,fugee Committee?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. And Dr. Barsky is chairman of that board?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes — I beg pardon?
The Chairman. Dr. Barsky is chairman of that board?
Mrs. Fleischman. Dr. Barsky is chairman of the committee.
The Chairman. Of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
The Chairman. How long have you been a member of the executive
board ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Since 1942, 1 think.
The Chairman. And that is when the committee was first organized,
is it?
Mrs. Fleischiman. Yes.
The Chairman. Dr. Barsky was served some time ago with a sub-
pena by this committee of Congress to produce these records that are
being colled for by us, that you are being called upon to produce, and
he appeared before this committee and testified that the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee had had a meeting,
and that the matter was laid before them, and that they voted unani-
mously to decline to this committee permission to inspect those books
and records. Were you present at such a meeting as that ?
Mrs. Fleischman. What meeting do you refer to ?
The Chair:man, The meeting at which the subpena that was served
on Dr. Barsky some month or two ago was discussed and acted on by
jour executive board. Were you present ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I was not present.
The Chairman. Did you participate in the matter by telephone or
in any other manner ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I did not.
Mr. Landis. You did not vote?
The Chairman. You did not vote on it at all, one way or the other?
Mrs. Fleischman. I did not vote.
Tlie Chairman. You took no action on it one way or the other?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 43
Mrs. Fleischman. I did not vote.
The Chairman. Mrs. Fleischman, this executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee is the authority that controls the
policies and actions of that organization, is it not?
Mrs. Fleischman. That is correct.
The Chairman. There isn't any other authority higher than the
executive board i
]Mrs. Fleischman. No.
The Chairman. And on all matters of policy, direction of the activi-
ties of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, the executive board
is the highest authority ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, as a member of that board — you say you are
a member now ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
The Chairman. As a member of that board are you now willing, so
far as you personally are concerned, as a member of that board are
you now willing to permit this committee of Congress to see those
books and records called for in that subpena ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I don't know what 1 would do. It would require
a meeting of the board.
The Chairman. Would you now, right here now, give your consent
to this committee to let them do that ?
Mrs. Fleischman. i don't think that is pertinent.
Mr. Landis. That is the main thing, the whole case.
The Chairman. And for that reason you won't answer ?
Mrs. P'leischman. I don't think it is pertinent. I think the board
has to take action. It would be wrong for me to express an opinion,
because the board has to decide.
The Chairman. Mrs. Fleischman, I am going to ask you now for
your personal permission. I am requesting you personally to permit
this committee of Congress to have access to those books. Vv'ill you
give it to us or not ? So far as you are able to do, will you give it to us ?
Mrs. Fleischman. That is expressing my opinion, Air. Chaiiman.
I cannot say what the board will do.
The Chairman. I am not asking what the board will do. I am ask-
ing what you will do.
Mrs. Fleischman. I do not know, because the thing comes to the
board to discuss, and I don't think it is pertinent to say what I should
do a week from now. It is a special meeting.
Mr. Adamson. I want to ask one further question. Under what
name were you naturalized as a citizen?
Mrs. Fleischman. My name is Ernestina G. Fleischman.
Mr. Adamson. And is your husband's name Fleischman?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And was he a citizen of the United States ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Born in New York.
Mr. Adamson. Then you married him before you became a citizen ?
Is that right ?
Mrs. Fleischman. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And what was your maiden name?
Mrs. Fleischman. Gonzales.
Mr. Adamson. Spanish names have two parts always. What is the
<other part of your name ?
44 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Fleischman. Robleda, my mother's name.
Mr. Adamson. The name wouhl read then (lonzales Y Robleda ?
Mrs. Fleischman. No; yon don't put anything in between. My
father's name was (xonzales. My mother's name was Robleda. So be-
bore I got married my name was Ernestina Robleda. We always keep
the father's and mother's name. h
Mr. Adamsox. There are two parts of every Spanish name. Isn't
that true ^
^Irs. Fleischman. Two parts, yes; Gonzales Robleda, father and
mother.
Mr. Adamson. And your given name you use in front, Ernestina?
Mrs. Fleischman. Ernestina is the name.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you known Dr. Barsky ?
Mrs. Fleischman. I knew him in New York since, I think it was
1939.
Mr. Adamson. Did you know Dr. Barsky when he was in Spain I
Mrs. Fleischman, No, I never met him,
Mr, Adamson. And when you went back to Spain and were over
there in 1939, were you a participant in the civil war?
Mrs. Fleischman. I don't think that is pertinent but I was there
in a capacity.
Mr. Adamson. What Avas your capacity ?
Mrs. Fleischman. My capacity was for the children and the
wounded from the bombardment things like that operating rooms.
I don't think it is pertinent to the case.
Mr. Adamson. Well you have told me what I want to know. In
other words, the work that you were doing in Spain was with children,^
taking care of children?
Mrs. Fleischman, They had been cities that had been bombed.
Mr. Adamson. And you helped to organize this Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee?
Mrs. Fleischman. No, I was here. It was sent from Spain, and
in that capacity I was asked to belong to the committee, to the Ijoard.
Mr. Adamson, AVho asked you to belong to the board?
Mrs. Fleischman. Well, I was a member. I got to go to the com-
mittee meetings, Mr. Chairman. I am not prepared for that. It was
a movement from Spain.
Mr. Landis, Do you know the first one that asked vou to belong
to it?
]Mrs. Fleischman. I met people in the meeting, refugees from
Spain.
The Chairman. That is all. Thank you.
( Witness excused. )
Mr. Adamson. I will call Leverett Gleason.
TESTIMONY OF LEVERETT S. GLEASON, NEW YOEK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and address to the
reporter ?
]Mr. Gleason. Leverett S. Gleason. May I have counsel present ?
The Chairman. Mr. Gleason, the policy of this committee is that
counsel is not permitted to accompany witnesses in executive session ;
however, if in the course of this examination there should arise anv
i
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 45
questions of law that you feel you should consult with your counsel
about. 3^ou will be given an opportunity to retire and discuss them.
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Gleason, what business are you in?
Mr. Gleason. I am a publisher.
Mr. Adamson. Will you name your publications ?
Mr. Gleason. I am publishing a number of magazines, Readers
Scope Magazine, Lovers Magazine, Crime Does Not Pay Comics — do
you want them all ?
Mr. Adamson. Yes.
Mr. Gleason. Sports Feathers Comics, Dare Devil Comics, Boy
Comics, Hollywood Comics, Candy Comics, Salute magazine — that is
a new one. I think that is all that I publish.
Mr. Adainison. All but two of your publications are comic-strip pub-
lications? Is that right?
Mr. Gleasox. No, Lovers is not a comic strip, and there are two
others — Readers Scope, a digest magazine, and Salute magazine, whicH
is a magazine that is edited by veterans of the Yanks.
Mr. Adamson. Are you here today in answer to a subpena served
upon you by this committee to produce certain books, papers, and rec-
ords of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Gleason. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And do you have a pink copy of the subpena with
you ?
Mr. Gleason. Yes. [Producing the subpena.]
jNIr. Adamson. I offer this, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the
testimony of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena served on Leverett Gleascm follows :)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the United
States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger :
You are hereby commanded to summon Leverett Gleason, 114 East Thirty-sec-
ond Street, New York City, a member of the executive board of the .Touit Anti-
Fascist Refuge Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities
Committee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which Hon.
John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers, recoi'ds, and
papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on account of the
•Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or ar.y subsidiary or sul)conimittee there-
of, together with all corresi)ondence and memoranda of communications by any
means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The said books, papers,
and records demanded herein are for the period from January 1, 194"), np to and
including the date of this .subpena, in their chamber in the city of Washington,
on April 4, 1946. at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify touching matters
of inquiry conmiitted to said committee; and he is not to depart without leave of
said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
AVitness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, ChairnKin.
Attest :
John W. Carringtox, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Mr. Gleason, are you a member of the board,
the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
85148 — 46 4
46 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gleason. Yes, I am.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member ?
Mv. Gleason. Since the inception, with the exception of the time
I was with the Army.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a citizen of the United States?
JNIr. Gleason. I am.
Mr. Adamson. Native born ?
Mr. Gleason. Native born.
Mr. Adamson. In New York?
Mr. Gleason. In Winchendon, Mass.
Mr. Adamson. The chairman of your organization, Dr. Barsky,
has previously testified before the connnittee in words and substance
that when he was served with a subpena to produce before the com-
mittee the books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refu-
gee Committee, he laid the matter before the executive board, and that
they instructed him by unanimous action not to produce the books,
papers, and records for this committee in compliance with his sub-
pena. I want to ask you if you participated in that meeting either
by personal attendance or proxy or by telephone.
Mr. Gleason. I was not present at the meeting. By telephone I
voted with the majority.
I^Ir. Adamson. And you voted to withhold the record from the com-
mittee ?
Mr. Gleason. No, I did not. That was not the question tliat was
asked.
Mr. Adamson. Who asked you the Cjuestion ?
Mr. Gleason. That I have forgotten. Somebody from the com-
mittee called up on the telephone — I am a very busy man and can't
remember who just now — and the question was asked me, if I recall
it correctly, whether the custodian of the records should be changed
from Miss Bryan to Dr. Barsky, and in view of the fact that Miss
Bryan was custodian of the records and that this committee, this
House committee, was proceeding' against her, we saw no reason to
change the custodian of the records at that time.
Mr. Adamson. Didn't you know that Miss Bryan had refused to
produce the books, papers, and records ?
Mr. Gleason. That is a little difficult for me to answer, because at
that time, that particular time, I was just back from a trip and I was
not fully aware of the situation, but I did understand not that she
refused to produce them, but that she had gotten legal advice and was
actino- according to counsel's instructions within the limits of the law
to protect the records. That was my understanding.
Mr. Adamson. You knew that she had not produced them phys-
ically ?
Mr. Gleason. I read that in the paper, yes.
Mr. Adamson. Have you produced here today the books, papers, and
records called for in the subpena which was served upon you ? If you
want to save time, we have heard that statement, before, and if you
will give it to us we will insert it in the record as part of your testimony.
Mr. Gleason. You will insert it in the record?
Mr. Adamson. Yes. We have got them all right here.
(Mr. Gleason presented the following paper:)
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and
testify and to produce certain boolis, records, and correspondence of the Joint
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 47
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee iu my possession, custody, and control. I indi-
vidually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the posses-
sion, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not have
either in my ix)Ssession, custody, or control the books, records, and documents
described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce them.
Mr. Landis. Did you write this?
Mr. Gleason. No, I didn't write that. That was prepared by my
attorney, Mr. Wolf, at my request.
Mr. Adamson. Who was this Mr. Wolf ?
Mr. Gleason. Mr. Wolf is a lawyer.
The Chairman. Mr. Gleason, when Dr. Barsky was here before this
committee, and when he was being interrogated on the question of
your board in regard to the subpena that had been served on him to
produce these books and records, he was asked this question :
Did they—
the Board —
decide that they would not submit these records to the committee?
Dr. Baesky. Tliey refused to grant me permission to submit these records.
Do you conform to that statement ? Is that what you understood
when you cast your vote?
Mr.GLEAsoN. I cast my vote over the telephone and I did not under-
stand just the phraseology of that question. As far as the question
put to me is concerned, there may be a slight difference.
The Chairman. But that in substance is what happened?
Mr. Gleason. No, the substance that I voted for was not to change
the custodian of the records, because Miss Bryan had the records, and
the legal opinion was that, in view of the fact that this committee was
proceeding against her, she should continue to be the custodian of
the records.
The Chairman. You say then that Dr. Barsky was in error when
he said that they — having reference to the executive board — they re-
fused to grant him permission to submit these records?
Mr. Gleason. I cannot answer for Dr. Barsky.
The Chairman. You say that is a correct or an incorrect statement?
Mr. Gleason. I cannot answer that question. If you want me to
,ask counsel, I will.
The Chairman. Counsel was not present, was he?
Mr. Gleason. No; but I mean whether I should answer the ques-
tion, because it is a matter of opinion which I do not think is pertinent.
I cannot give an opinion as to Dr. Barsky's testimony.
The Chairman. Does that testimony jibe with what you say hap-
pened ?
Mr. Gleason. I will say, I will repeat that what I voted on was
not to change the custody of the records. The question, putting it
the other way, of instructing Dr. Barsky is an entirely different
thing. I had no vote, or there was no vote that I know of ; I was not
present at a meeting on the question of instructing him to refuse
an}'' records. The question was : Miss Bryan has the records. Shall
she remain c ustodian of the records ?
The Chairman. When were you served with the subpena that you
.have produced here?
48 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gleason. I was served Monday morning, this last Monday
morning. I was not in my office when the server came, and they
told him I would be back.
The Chairman, In the 4 days, approximately, that you have had
that subpena, have you made any attempt to obtain any action from
the board with re Terence to producing these records?
Mr. Gleason. Action, I should think, on that question must come
from the board at a regular called meeting. I am not in a position
to call a meeting.
The Chairinian. I am asking you about what you have done.
Mr. Gleason. I have not called any meetings.
The Chairman. Have you solicited the calling of iinj meetings?
Mr. Gleason. No, I have not. I don't think that is my province.
I am a rank and file member of the board.
The Chairman. You are a member of the board?
Mr. Gleason. I am a member of the board.
The Chairman. And the executive board is the authority that con-
trols the actions and formulates the policies of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee?
Mr, Gleason. That is true, yes.
The Chairman, And there isn't any higher authority than the
executive board?
Mr, Gleason. I would not say that, because there is a national
convention that has the highest authority, as I understand it.
The Chairman, National convention of what?
Mr, Gleason, The National Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or
national conference. That is how this committee was orginally
started, as I understand it. That would have the highest authority,
I should think.
The Chairman. Who is in that organization? Is that a national
organization ?
Mr. Gleason. There is a board, an executive board, and I think
some sponsors. I am not familiar with them. If I recall, they met
when the committee was first started, and I think that in case of the
ultimate authority that you speak of, it would be there, it would be
calling the national conference, because there are people all over the
country who belong to it.
The Chairman. National conference of whom?
Mv. Gleason. Of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee,
The Chairman. Who are they?
Mr. Gleason. That I don't know.
The Chairman. Have you ever seen any of them?
INIr. Gleason. No; I have not.
The Chairinian. Since you have been serving on this board ? How
long have you been serving on it?
Mr. Gleason. Well, as I told you, I came on the board in the very
early formation, I have forgotten when, but I think it was in 1942.
The Chair:^ian. Since you have been a member of this board, the
executive board, it has had control of the actions of the Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee?
Mr, Gleason, Policies and actions.
The Chairman, iVnd employees, I assume?
Mr. Gleason. I suppose so. I would say that is true, yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 49
The Chairman. And tliey have the right to dispense with the serv-
ices of any employee ?
Mr. Gleason. I suppose they would ; yes.
The Chairman. And Avould dispense with the services of any em-
ployee who would refuse to carry out their orders?
jNIr. Gleason. I cannot answer what the board would do.
The Chairman. They have the authority to do it, haven't they?
Mr. Gleason. I should think they have ; yes.
The Chairman. Now today, as a member of that board and as a
man who has been a member of it since the inception of the organiza-
tion, are you willing to give your individual consent as a member of
that board for an inspection of the books by this committee ?
Mr. Gleason. As a member of this board, the executive board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, I cannot here say what I would
do individually without a meeting of the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, one reason being that there would
certainly have to be discussion on it.
The Chairman. I understand that for that reason you now decline
our request which I am now making to you personally for your per-
mission ?
Mr. Gleason. On the ground that I consider that a conjectural
question. I do so decline; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. The witness previously testified that on this other deci-
sion he didn't have to have any discussion or counsel, that somebody
called him up on the telephone and he said over the phone he was
in favor of not letting this committee have the records. Why do
you have to consult on this other question when you could do it so
quickly over the telephone on the first pne?
Mr. Gleason. Because I think I had free opportunity to weigh the
matter pro and con before giving a vote. Here today you ask me this
question, and I do not know. I haven't heard any discussion on it. I
cannot answer that.
Mr. MuNDT. You didn't have any discussion of it over the telephone ?
You couldn't discuss it in a telephone call ?
]Mr. Gleason. No ; but there was a board meeting.
Mr. MtTNDT. You have discussed it a long time here today.
Mr. Gleason. But I couldn't decide without an official board meet-
ing.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words, you just don't want to answer the ques-
tion?
Mr. Gleason. You can put it that way if you want to. I wouldn't
put it that way.
The Chairman. Will you answer it or not ?
Mr. Gleason. I consider that I have given a reason why I cannot
answer that question.
The Chairman. Then I ask you again, will you answer it or not
now?
Mr. Gleason. I do not know.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Gleason, it is not Miss Bryan but it is the executive
board that actually has custody of the books and records ?
Mr. Gleason. Miss Bryan has custody of the books and records,
insofar as I know. I personally have never seen the books and records.
Mr. MuNDT. The board has cUrect control of them?
50 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gleason. I believe that the board has control over Miss Bryan
but not over tlie books and records in this sense: That the board in-
structed Miss Bryan to take up the question of the custody of those
records — not custody, but to take up this question of the books and
records with counsel, and counsel has advised Miss Bryan, so I think
you will have to look to Miss Bryan for that. We have instructed
her to seek legal advice to protect the records within the limit of the
law.
Mr. MuNDT. Protect the records from whom ?
Mr. Gleason. From you.
Mr. MuNDT. What are you trying to conceal ?
JMr. Gleason. AVe are not trying to conceal anything.
]Mr. MuNDT. It seems to me there is a strange, stubborn conflict be-
tween your testimony and that which Dr. Barsky gave, his sworn testi-
monj' before this committee when he was here. This was his testi-
mony on February 13 :
Doctor, do you have any objection at this time to stating who does have the
authority to produce the records?
Dr. Baesky. I would say that the board of directors, the executive board would
have the ultimate authority to produce the records.
He doesn't say anything about Miss Bryan.
Mr. Gleason. Well, I have said, I think, in answer I believe to a
question, that the board has authority to instruct Miss Bryan. They
could have instructed her not to seek legal counsel, but they did. As
far as the board is concerned, I suppose they could retract that pro-
cedure and adopt another. I suppose they could.
Mr. Adamson. They could have instructed her to turn the books
over to this committee, too ?
Mr. Gleason. Yes ; but they did not. The board instructed her to
ask for advice of legal counsel.
The Chairman. And that legal counsel is the counsel that the board
had employed, Mr. Wolf 'I
Mr. Gleason. That is correct.
The Chairman. That's all. You are excused,
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. You may advise the remaining witnesses that we
have got to go on the floor now ; and we will meet back in this room at
2 : 30 this afternoon. All those who have been examined are excused,
and those that have not been will meet back here at 2 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12:45 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:30 p. m.
this day. )
after recess
The committee reassembled at 2 : 30 p. m., pursuant to recess.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Adamson. I will call Mr. Justiz.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY M. JUSTIZ, ASTORIA, LONG ISLAND, N. Y.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Justiz, will you give your full name and your
address to the reporter ?
Mr. JusTiz. Harry M. Justiz, 2030 Thirty-sixth Street, Astoria,
Long Island, N. Y.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 51
Mr. Adamson. What business are you in, ]Mr. Justiz?
Mr. Justiz. I am an attorney. '
Mr. Adamson. What is j^our office address?
Mr. Justiz. 570 Seventh Avenue, New York.
Mr. Adamson. And you are a member of the New York bar?
Mv. Justiz. I am.
Mr. Adamson. You are here in compliance with a sub})eua which
was served upon you by the connnittee calling for the production of
certain books, papers, and records ?
JMr. Justiz. I am.
]Mr. Adamson. Have jou got the pink copy of your subpena ?
INIr. Justiz. I have (producing the subpena).
^Ir. Adamson. I offqr this, Mr. Chairman, as part of the testimony
of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena served on Harry M. Justiz follows:)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Conceicss of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or his Special Messenger :
You are hereby coimnanded to summon Harry M. Justiz, 570 Seventh Avenue,
New York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refu-
gee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities Committee
of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which Hon. John
S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers, records, and
papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on account of
the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommittee
thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of communications
by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The said books,
papers, and records demanded herein are for the period from January 1, 1945,
up to and including the date of this subpena, in theii^ chamber in the city of
Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify
touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee ; and he is not to.
depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Vv'^itness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the Uuited
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Carrington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Justiz, are you a member of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Justiz. I am.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member?
]\Ir. Justiz I believe about 21/2 or 3 years.
Mr. Adamson. Would that go back as far as 1942?
Mr. Justiz. I don't believe so, but I am not sure.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a citizen of the United States'^
Mr. Justiz. I am.
Mr. Adamson. Native-born?
Mr. Justiz. No.
Mr. Adamson. Where did you come from ?
Mr. Justiz. I came here from Yugoslavia when I was about 9 years-
of age.
Mr. Adamson. And have resided in New York State ever since ?
Mr. Justiz. Since that time ; yes, sir.
52 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barsky, your chairman, has previously testified
before tliis committee, and he said in words and substance tliat when
the subpena had been served on him by the committee at a prior date
he hiid the question of complying with that subpena for the produc-
tion of books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist II fugee
Committee before your executive board, and that your executive
board unanimously acted and instructed him not to produce the rec-
ords before the committee; that that was the reason why he did not
produce them in compliance with the subpena.
Mr, JusTiz. He was not instructed to produce the records.
Mr. Adamson. Just a minute — I just want to ask you what partici-
pation you had in that action?
Mr. Landis, Were you present?
Mr. JusTiz. First of all, that was not the action.
Mr. Landis. Were you present at the meeting personally?
Mr. JusTiz. Personally I was not.
Mr. Adamson. How did you participate in it?
Mr. JusTiz. By consultation over the telephone.
Mr. Adamson. You cast your vote then by telephone?
Mr. JusTiz. I cast my vote by telephone.
Mr. Adamson. And someone from the office of the committee called
you. I take it, about the matter?
Mr. JusTiz. That is right.
Mr, Adamson. Did you know the person with whom you talked over
the telephone ?
]Mr. JusTiz. I don't recall now. It might have been one of the
staff, but I am not sure, or it may have been Miss Bryan.
Mr. Adamson. When you cast your vote over the tele})hone you
knew what 3'ou were voting on, didn't you?
Mr. JusTiz. I knew what I was voting on ; yes, sir,
Mr. Adamson. And' can you tell us here now what you voted on?
Mr. JusTiz, Yes; the question was whether Dr, Barsky should be
instructed to produce the books and records to this committee. I
thought that in view of the fact that Miss Bryan was the official
custodian of the records, and has been all through the time that I
have been a member of the committee, we could not at this time, when
the committee is under investigation, change tlie custodian, and under
those conditions we could not possibly instruct him to produce any-
thing which was not in his custody.
Mr. Landis. Did you know that Miss Bryan had been subpenaed,
too, on the same thing i
Mr. JusTiz. Yes; we knew she was under investigation, and I be-
lieve it would be contemptuous of this committee if in the middle of
such an investigation, we should change the custodian,
INIr, Adamson, You knew that she had refused to produce the books,
papers, and records ?
Mr. JuSTiz. I knew she had been instructed to consult counsel.
The Chairman. Will you just answei- the question asked you?
Mr. Ad-'-mscn, Ycu knew she had not produced the books and
f)apers?
Mr. JusTiz. I knew she had not produced them.
Mr. Adamson. Regardless of what the nature of the refusal was?
Mr. JusTiz. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 53
Mr. Adamson. Are you Avi]lin<r at this time, so far as your vote is
concerned, to permit the investigators of this committee of Congress
to inspect those books, papers, and records?
Mr. JusTiz. I cannot tell 3M)u Avhat ni}^ vote would be. It would be
subject to discussion of the entire board, and my decision would be
made after such discussion.
Mr. Adamson. Isn't the entire board here today ?
JNIr. JusTiz. Well, they were in the beginning of the day. About
half of them are gone ; and, of course, we did not have a meeting for
this particular purpose.
Mr. Adamson. When were you served with the subpena?
^Ir. JuSTiz. Tuesday.
Mr. Adamson. And did you make any effort to have a meeting
called by the board or to confer with the other members of the board
for the purpose of authorizing the production of these books, papers,
and records ?
Mr. JusTiz. I did not ; and I could not possibly do it in one day's
time.
Mr. Adamson. What is your attitude now? Can't you give us your
own opinion? Is it necessary for you to ask someone else what your
own ODinion is?
Mr. JtJsTiz. I think it would be necessary to have the benefit of the
opinion of my fellow members of the committee before I can make
up my mind.
Mr. Adamson. If you do make up your mind ?
Mr. JusTiz. Before I could make up my mind.
The Chairman-. So, until you do make up your mind, you would
decline to grant this request?
Mr. JusTiz. Which request ?
The Chairman. I will make one now : That we have your permis-
sion to see these books and records.
Mr. JusTiz. They are not in my custody.
The Chairman. I didn't ask 3^ou that. I am asking you now for
vour permission. Do you grant vour permission or do you decline
to do it?
Mr. JusTiz. I don't think it is pertinent, because it calls for a con-
clusion.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Thomas. You say that Miss Helen Bryan has custody of the
records ?
Mr. JusTiz. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Is it your belief, then, that Dr. Barsky does not have
custod^^ of the books ?
Mr. JusTiz. Correct.
Mr. Thomas. You believe likewise that this executive connnittee has
not custody of the records?
"Sir. JusTiz. No ; it has not.
IMr. Landis. Do yon believe that Helen Bryan could turn these
papers over without permission from the board, if she wanted to?
Mr. JusTiz. I don't believe so, because under the instructions of the
board she is supposed to consult counsel as to whether she should or
should not.
The Chairman. And that counsel is your lawyer out here, Mr.
Wolf?
54 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. JtJSTiz. That's right.
Mr. Thomas. Aren't you going to read that statement as the others
read it ?
Mr. JuSTiz. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. You are not going to read it ?
Mr. JusTiz. No.
Mr. Thomas. How is it you are not going to read the paper ?
Mr. JusTiz. Well, I just feel that I am not called upon to read it.
ISIr. Thomas. Well, I suppose you would like to have the statement
put in the record ; wouldn't you ?
Mr. JusTiz. Not necessarily ; no.
The Chairman. Have you got those documents that the subpena
calls for ? Have you got them with you now ?
Mr. JusTiz. No, sir.
Mr. Thomas. I think we would like to have that statement.
Mr. Landis. No; if he don't want to put it in, that is all right.
XiCave it out.
Mr. JusTiz. I just took this out because I thought if I needed it I
would read it.
Mr. Adamson. You have not produced the books, papers, and
records that we are talking about here this morning ?
Mr. JuSTiz. No.
The Chairman. That's all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Mrs. Kamsly.
TESTIMONY OF MES. LOUIS A. KAMSLY, NEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and your address to the
reporter, Mrs. Kamsly?
Mrs. Kamsly. Mrs. Louis A. Kamsly, 350 Central Park Wast, New
York City. May I have my lawyer present ?
The Chairman. Mrs. Kamsly, if in the course of this investigation
any matter should arise involving a legal question on which you desire
to confer with your counsel, you have permission to do so.
Mr. Adamson. Does the name end "ly" or "ley" ?
Mrs. Kamsly. "ly."
Mr. Adamson. There is no "e" in it ?
Mrs. Kamsly. No ; there is not.
The Chairman. Your attorney is Mr. Wolf?
Mrs. Kamsly. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Are you here today in answer to a subpena served
upon you by the committee, calling for the production of books,
papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Mrs. Kamsly. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And do you have the pink copy of the subpena that
was served upon you ?
Mrs. Kamsly. Yes [producing the subpena].
Mr. Adamson. I offer this subpena, Mr. Chairman, in connection
with the testimony of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be received.
UX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 55
(The subpena addressed to Mrs. Kamsly follows:)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Rephbsentativf-s of the Congress of the
United Statj'-.s of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby cuiumanded to siiiumon Mrs. Samuel Kamsly, 350 Central Park
West, New York City, a member of the executive lioard of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which the Hon.
John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers, records, and
papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on account of
the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommittee
thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of communications
by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The said books,
papers, and records demanded herein are for the period from January 1, 1945, up
to and including the date of this subpena, in their chamber in the city of
Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify
touching matters of inquiry connnitted to said committee ; and he is not to depart
without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March, 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest.:
John W. Carrington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Mrs. Kamsly, are you a member of the board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Connnittee? I believe they called it the
"executive board."
Mrs. Kamsly. Yes.
Mr, Adamson. How long have you been a member of that board?
Mrs. Kamsly. For less than a year. I should say since about last
September, approximately.
Mr. Adamsox. Your chairman, Dr. Barsky, has testified previously
before this committee that when he was served with a subpena at a
prior date for the purpose of obtaining these books and papers for
the inspection of the committee, he laid the matter before your execu-
tive board, and that the board voted unanimously instructing him not
to produce the books, papers, and records before this committee.
Were you present personally at any such meeting?
Mrs. Kamsly. I was not.
Mr. Adamsox. Did you participate in it by telephone or by proxy ?
Mrs. Kamsly. Yes ; I voted over the telephone.
Mr. Adamsox. And will you tell us whether you knew the person
with whom you were talking over the telephone?
Mrs. Kamsly. I am not absolutely certain, but I think it was Miss
Bryan.
Mr. Adamson. And I assume, since the action was unanimous, that
3'ou voted in the affirmative?
Mrs. Kamsly. In the affirmative for what? That Dr. Barsky
should not produce the books and paj^ers ?
Mr. Adamson. Yes.
Mrs. Kamsly. I voted that the custodianship of the books, records,
and correspondence should not be transferred from Miss Helen
Bryan, the legal custodian, to Dr. Barsky, since Miss Bryan was at
56 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
that time — well, this committee, rather, was proceeding against Miss
Bryan at that time.
Mr. Landis. Did you know that she received a subpena to producfe
the books, records, and papers ?
JNIrs. Kamslt. I did know that.
Mr. Adamson. You are a citizen of the United States, I take it ?
Mrs. Kamslt. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And you are a native-born citizen?
Mrs. Kamslt. I was born in New York City.
Mr. Adamson. And 3"ou have resided in New York all your life?
Mrs. Kamslt. All my life.
Mr. Adamson. Do you recall just who asked you to become a mem-
ber of the board, the executive board? Were you a member of the
committee before you became a member of the board?
Mrs. Kamslt. I worked with the committee in fund-raising
activities in the women's division, and I think it was Miss Bryan who
asked me whether I would like to become a member of the executive
board.
Mr. Adamson. Have you produced here today the documents, pa-
pers, and records called for in the subpena ?
Mrs. Kamslt (reading) :
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and
testify and to produce certain books, records, and correspondence
The Chairman (interposing). You can save a lot of time by just
putting that in the record. "We have got 8 or 10 here just like it. Just
give it to the reporter and we will put it in the record.
(The paper referred to follows :)
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and
testify and to product^ certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint
Anti-Fascist RefugtM Committee in niy jiossession. custody, and control. I in-
dividually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the posses-
sion, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not
have either in my possession, custody, or control tlie books, records, and docu-
ments described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to pro-
duce them.
Mrs. Kamslt. This is my answer to the question.
Mr. Rankin. And that was written by your lawyer?
Mrs. Kamslt. This is the answer which my lawyer
Mr. Eankin (interposing). Wrote for you?
Mrs. Kamslt. He did not write it for me. He took it down in legal
language, but this is my opinion.
]\Ir. Rankin. It is the same one. a copy of the one that all the other
witnesses have brought in here. That was prepared by the lawyer ?
Mrs. Kamslt. I judge that we all had the same lawyer. We all
consulted with the same lawyer, therefore he transferred our ideas in-
to legal language.
Mr. Rankin. And you all got copies of the same stereotyped an-
SM'er ?
Mr. Landis. Tell us when you consulted with tlie lawyer on this?
Mr. Rankin. What lawyer are you talking about?
Mrs. Kamslt. Mr. Wolf.
Mr. Landis. Tell us when.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 57
Mrs. Kamsly. I don't remember.
Mr. Landis. Last week, this week?
Mrs. Kamsly. It was since I was served with the subpena.
The Chairman. When were you served?
Mrs. Kamsly. I was served last Thursday, I believe.
Mr. Landis. You talked with the lawyer last week?
Mrs. Kamsly. I don't remember the actual date of it, gentlemen,
but I remember that I was served a week ago today, I think, or perhaps
it was a week ago tomorrow. I couldn't be absolutely certain.
Mrs. Adamson. Are you ready and willing at this time to give your
consent for the investigators of this conmiittee to inspect the books,
papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Eefugee Committee?
That is, so far as your vote is concerned ?
Mrs. Kamsly. I cannot give a personal opinion, gentlemen, as far
as my own consent is concerned. I can only talk as a member of the
executive board, and I do not think the question is pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. Who told you to make that kind of an answer?
Mrs. Kamsly. Well, I had several consultations with my lawyer,
naturally, and he did not tell me to say it, but I told him what I
thought, and of course he informed me of the legal phraseology.
Mr. Thomas. The reason I mention that is that every witness here
today has said exactly the same thing.
• Mr. Rankin. Used the same phraseology.
Mr. Thomas. He did tell you to say that?
Mrs. Kamsly. No, he didn't tell me to say it.
Mr. Thomas. Then it is just a coincidence that all the witnesses are
saying the same thing?
Mrs. Kamsly. I guess it is a legal term.
Mr. Thomas. It would be a coincidence, wouldn't it, in your mind ?
Wouldn't you think it would be a coincidence if all of these witnesses
used the same expression?
Mrs. Kamsly. I don't know.
Mr. Landis. Would you be in favor, as a member of the board, of
letting Helen Bryan turn over the papers, or let us have access to them?
Mrs. Kamsly. I could only make that decision at a board meeting
after listening to what other members of the board said.
The Chairman. I make a personal request now as chairman of the
committee to you to give us your consent as a member of the executive
board to have a member of this committee of Congress inspect those
books and records.
Mrs. Kamsly. I beg pardon?
The Chairman. I say I now, as chairman of the Coimnittee on
Un-American Activities of the Congress of the United States, make
a personal request to you to give your consent for this committee of
Congress to have access to the records mentioned in that subpena
that you were served with. Do you grant your personal permission ?
Mrs. Kamsly. I cannot grant my personal permission, Mr. Chair-
man, because I am a member of the board, and I have to act as a board
member.
The Chairman. As a board member do you grant it?
Mrs. Kamsly. I can only act as a member of the board.
The Chairman. And now here today you decline to grant it ? You
■decline to consent to it ?
Mrs. Kamsly. AYould you rephrase that, please?
58 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTI^•ITIES
The Chairman. Here now, today, right now. this minute, as a mem-
ber of the board you decline to consent to that request '(
Mrs, Kamsly. I do not decline, but I say I cannot take any action:
unless I have a board meeting.
The Chairman. Isn't that declining?
Mrs. Kamsly. No; it is neither declining nor consenting.
The Chairman. That is all. You are excused.
(Witness excused.)
Mr, Adamson. I will call Manuel Magana.
TESTIMONY OF MANUEL MAGANA, NEW YOKK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Give your full name and address to the reporter.
Mr. Magana. Manuel Magana.
Mr. Adamson. What business are you in?
Mr. Magana, Hardware store business.
Mr. Adamson. In New York ?
Mr. Magana. In New York, 1363 Fifth Avenue.
Mr. Adamson. And are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Magana. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. When did you become a citizen?
Mr. Magana. 1939.
Mr. Adamson. In New York ?
Mr. Magana. New York.
Mr. Adamson. Where did you come from before that ?
Mr. Magana. I came from Cuba ?
Mr. Adamson, What part of Cuba ?
Mr. Magana. Habana, Cuba. You say when I come to this country ?'
Mr. Adamson. Yes, You came from Habana to the United States?'
Mr. Magana. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. How did you get to Habana ?
Mr. Magana. I went from the United States to Habana.
Mr. Adamson. You mean you came into the United States once
before ?
Mr. Magana. Yes. Then I went to Cuba.
Mr. Adamson. You had to leave the United States on account of the
immigration laws?
Mr. Magana. No.
Mr. Adamson. AYell, explain how you got to the United States.
Mr. Magana. I went on the boat to Plabana, and I sta^^ed there work-
ing for a long time. Then I come back to the United States.
Mr. Adamson. You mean you were working for this Joint Anti-
Fascist Committee?
Mr. Magana. No.
Mr. Adamson. Where were you born ?
Mr. Magana, In Spain.
Mr. Adamson. What part of Spain?
Mr. Magana. Zaragoza, Spain.
Mr. Adamson. And what time did you first come to the United
States, your first trip to the United States?
Mr. Magana. In 1913.
Mr. Adamson. What business were you in then i
Mr. Magana. I was working on a boat.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 59
Mr. Adamson. What were yoii, a steward, a seamen?
Mr. Magana. I was workin*;- as a waiter.
Mr. Adamson. A waiter!' Well, that is a steward. That was a
Spanish ship?
Mr. Magana. No.
Mr. Adamson. What ship was it?
Mr, Magana. It was an American ship.
iVIr. Adamson. I don't get it.
]\Ir. Magana. The name of the boat was Joseph Pmienti. I can't
tell very well the names, because it was many years back.
Mr. Adamson. What flag did she fly?
Mr, Magana. In Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Mr. Adamson. She flew the Argentine flag ?
Mr. Magana. Yes,
Mr. Adamson. Are yon a member of the board of the Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee ?
Mr. Thomas. Wait a minute. I want to find out exactly when he
left Spain.
Mr. Adamson. I am coming back to that. Are you a member of this
executive board of the Joinf Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Mr. Magana. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And how long have j^ou been a member of that
board?
Mr. Magana. One year.
Mr. Adamson. About what month of last y^viv did you become a
member ?
Mr, Magana. In March. I don't remember exactly, but it was
about March.
Mr. Adamson. About a year ago?
Mr. Magana. About a year ago.
Mr. Adamson. Were you a member of the committee before that
time ?
Mr. Magana. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. You did not belong to the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee before that time ?
Mr. Magana. I think not.
Mr. Adamson. Don't you know ?
Mr. Magana. I don't remembei". I became a member about a year
ago, but I don't know any more.
Mr. Ad\mson. Well, you say yon came to the United States first
in 1913. When did you enter the United States for the purpose of
citizenship?
Mr. Magana. I don't understand very well. Ask it again. I don't
understand well,
Mr. Adamson. When you file your citizenship papers you have to
put in a date when you entered the United States for the purpose of
becoming a citizen. What date did you tell the Government you en-
tered here with the intention of becoming a citizen?
Mr. Magana. Well, the date, I come to this country in 1916,
Mr, Adamson. From 1916 up until 1939 did you go back to Spain?
Mr. Magana. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. You have not been in Spain since 1916?
Mr. Magana. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Have you been in Cuba often ?
60 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Magana. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. What did you do in Habana?
ISIr, Magana. I worked as a waiter.
Mr. Adamson, When were you served with a subpena from this
committee ?
Mr. Magana. Wlien was I served ?
Mr. Adamson. Yes.
Mr. Magana. I have it here [producing the subpena]. Exactly I
don't know the day it was. I don't know the date.
Mr. Landis. Was it last week 'i When did you get it ?
Mr. Magana. I don't remember the date.
Mr. Adamson. It was last week, wasn't it ?
I offer this subpena as a part of the testimony of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena addressed to Mr. Manuel Magana follows :)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representativ'es of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant nt Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mr. ^Manuel ]Magana, Club Obrero
Espauol, 1490 Madison Avenue, New York City, a member of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the
Un-American Activities Committee of the House of Representatives of the
United States, of which the Hon. John S. Wood is chairman and to bring with
you all books, ledgers, records, and papers rehiting to the receipt and disburse-
ment of money by or on account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or
any subsidiary or subcommittee thereof, together with all ci>rrespondence and
memoranda of communications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign
countries. The said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the
period from January 1, 194."), up to and including the date of this subpena, in their
chamber in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1941!, at the hour of 10 a. m., then
and there to testify touching matters of inquiry committted to said committee ;
and he is not to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March, 1946.
John S. Wood. Chairmun.
Attest : John W. Carrington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Now, JNIr. Magana, your chairman, Dr. Barsky, has
testified before this conmiittee previously and he said that when lie was
served with a subpena asking him to produce the books, records, and
papers of this Joint xlnti-Fascist Refugee Committee he laid the
matter of whether he should produce the books before your executive
board, and your executive board voted unanimously instructing him
not to produce the books, records, and papers of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee. I want to ask you if you attended that meeting
of the executive board personally?
Mr. Magana. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Adamson. And I take it you voted to instruct him not to produce
the books, papers, and records ?
Mr. Magana. It was imanimous.
Mr. Landis. You voted at that meeting?
The Chairman. He said the vote was unanimous.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 61
Mr. INIagana, "Well, I have to consult my lawyer. I don't know the
meaning.
Mr. Adamson. What did yon do at the meeting?
Mr. Landis. Did you vote ?
Mr. Magana. I guess we vote. I don't know. We get to a decision,
but I don't know.
Mr. Adamson. They voted, but you don't know what they voted for ?
Mr. Magana. I don't remember exactly now.
Mr. Adamson. You mean to tell me that you didn't know what you
attended the meeting for?
Mr. Magana. AVell, I guess that — I don't remember now what was —
if we both decided to do anything, I don't know very much.
The Chairman. You knew in that meeting what the meeting was
held for ; didn't you ?
]Mr. Magana. Well, I thought it was a meeting like they held.
The Chairman. You knew we were asking to see the books and
records of this Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, didn't you?
You knew we were seeking to see them ; didn't you ?
Mr. Magana (reading) :
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena
The Chairman (interposing) . We know what is in that paper. We
haven't got to that yet. Just answer that question. At the time you
held that meeting you are talking about, the meeting of the board that
you said you attended?
Mr. Magana. Yes; I attended the meeting.
The Chairman. And you knew at that time this committee of
Congress here was trying to get hold of your books ; didn't you ? That
is what the meeting was called about, wasn't it ?
Mr. Magana. I don't understand that.
The Chairman. What did you meet for ?
Mr. Magana. I do not understand that.
The Chairman. You said you had a meeting up there.
Mr. Magana. Yes ; we had a meeting.
The Chairman. A meeting of the executive board ?
Mr. Magana. Yes.
The Chairman. What did you meet for?
Mr. Magana. We met to get something done, but I don't remembei
now the point.
The Chairman. You don't remember what was discussed?
Mr. Magana. I don't remember now, personally.
The Chairman. You said you voted. What did you vote for ?
Mr. Magana. I say I voted ?
The Chairman. A while ago you said you voted in that meeting.
What did you vote on ?
Mr. Magana. I don't think — my personal opinion is not pertinent.
The Chairman. I am not asking you for your personal opinion.
I am asking you what you voted on. Do you know what you voted on ?
Mr. Magana. I have got to ask my lawyer. I don't know.
The Chairman. Your lawyer has not told you we were likely to ask
you this question ?
Mr. Magana. No.
85148 — 46 5
62 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. You want to go out and talk to him a little about
it? You stated a while ago that you attended the meeting and you
had a vote, and you all participated in it. What did you vote on?
Mr. Magana. I don't remember now what it was on.
The Chairman. Did you vote on anything about bringing the
books down here ?
Mr. Magana. I don't understand that, because I have no books in
my possession, anything like that.
The Chairman. Have you got anything else except that paper?
What have you got in your pockets ? I see some glasses and a pencil
there. Have you got anything else in your pockets ?
Mr. Magana. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you got these books that we asked for here
in this subpena in your pockets? Just answer that question.
Mr. ISIagana. Mr. Chairman, I have been served
The Chairman (interposing). We know what is in your statement.
Mr. Magana (reading) :
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and
testify and to produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control. I in-
dividually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material
requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and
correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the posses-
sion, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our
organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not
have either in my possession, custody, or control the books, records, and docu-
ments described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to
produce them.
The Chairman. Now, will you answer the question I asked you
a while ago ?
Mr. Magana. What question ?
The Chairman. Have you got the papers in your pocket?
Mr. Magana. I haven't got any papers in my pocket.
The Chairman. You haven't got them anywhere, have you ? You
didn't bring them with you, did you ? Did you bring the books with
you?
Mr. Magana. That is not pertinent. I have no books.
The Chairman. Who told you to say that question was not per-
tinent ?
Mr. Magana. Just myself.
The Chairman. Don't you know that is not true ?
Mr. Magana. Well, I don't know. Miss Helen Bryan has custody
of the books, so I can't have no books.
The Chairman. Don't you know you were told by this lawyer Wolf
to say it was impertinent, and when you say it is your thought, you
swear to a lie? Don't you know that is true? I will ask you again,
have you got them now ?
Mr. Magana. The custodian of the books has to do it.
The Chairman. I ask you again, have you got them?
Mr. Magana. I have no books. I haven't got them.
The Chairman. As a member of the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Eefugee Committee, do you consent now for us to see
those books ?
Mr, Magana. I don't have the books.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES G3
The Chairman. Well, are you willing for us to see them up there
in the office if we go up there ?
Mr. Magana. I don't understand you.
The Chairman. If we go up there to the offices in New York are
you willing for us to see these books?
Mr. Magana. Myself personally? I cannot tell, because the cus-
todian of the books
The Chairman (interposing). You just happened to thinl?: about
that answer?
Mr. Magana. Miss Helen Bryan is in care of the books, so I don t.
The Chairman. Are you willing for us to see them?
Mr. Magana. I didn't have the books.
The Chairman. Are you willing for us to see them?
Mr. Magana. I haven't the books.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. Do you now consent or not
for us to see those books ?
Mr. Magana. That is impertinent.
The Chairman. That is an imj)ertinent question?
Mr. Magana. Yes.
The Chairman. For that reason you decline to answer? Is that
right ?
Mr. Landis. Do you want us to see the books?
Mr. Magana. That is impertinent. I don't have the books. Miss
Helen Bryan has the books, so I got to know first.
Mr. Landis. Would you care if Helen Bryan showed us the books I
Mr. Magana. That is a question for the board, not my question.
Mr. Landis. You are on the board ?
Mr. Magana. But I am just a member.
The Chairman. We have asked you for your opinion about it.
Mr. Magana. Not pertinent.
The Chairman. Not pertinent ?
Mr. Magana. Not pertinent.
Mr. Rankin. Who wrote this document for you [referring to the
paper previously read by the witness] ?
Mr. Magana. That is my opinion.
Mr. Rankin. Who wrote that for you? You are rubbino- your
nose right up against the gates of the penitentiary here. Did you
write that?
Mr. Magana. It is not pertinent.
Mr. Rankin. Don't you know good and well that a lawyer wrote
that and made copies of it and gave each one of you one of them?
Isn't that true?
Mr. Magana. That is not pertinent.
Mr. Rankin. You refuse to answer the question ?
Mr. Magana. It is not pertinent.
Mr. Rankin. We will see whether it is pertinent or not.
The Chairman. That is all. You are excused.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Dr. Louis Miller.
TESTIMONY OF DR. LOUIS MILLER, SEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and your address to the
reporter ?
64 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. Miller. Louis Miller, M. D., 400 West End Avenue, New York
City-
Mr. Adamson. Are you a practicing physician, Doctor?
Dr. Miller. I am.
Mr. Adamson. Where is your office?
Dr. Miller. At that address.
Mr. Adamson. And do you reside there ?
Dr. Miller. I might correct that. My residence is 411 West End
Avenue.
Mr. Adamson. And the first address is your office ?
Dr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been practicing. Doctor?
Dr. Miller. About 25 years.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a native-born citizen of New York?
Dr. Miller. I don't know how pertinent that is to the subject of
discussion, but I might say for your information that I am not a
native-born citizen. I am a naturalized citizen.
Mr. Adamson. I take it that you are duly qualified in the State of
New York to practice medicine ?
Dr. Miller. Oh, yes.
Mr. Adamson. Where did you come from originally ?
Dr. Miller. I came from Eussia.
Mr. Adamson. What part of Russia ?
Dr. Miller. Vilna.
Mr. Adamson. I understand that you are a member of the executive
board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee. Is that correct ?
Dr. Miller. That is correct.
Mr. Adamson. And how long have you been a member of the board ?
Dr. Miller. Since the inception of that organization; 1942, I be-
lieve.
Mr. Adamson. And were you affiliated with any of the organizations
from which that grew? There were several organizations before
that, I believe, that merged to make this one.
Dr. Miller. Yes. I was a member of the committee of the preced-
ing organization, at least one of the preceding organizations.
Mr. Adamson. Which one of them ?
Dr. Miller. I don't quite recall the title under which it functioned.
Mr. Adamson. Is that the Spanish Aid Committee or the Relief
Ship?
Dr. Miller. They were all Spanish aid.
Mr. Adamson. But you can't remember which one you were affiliated
with?
Dr. Miller. I do not.
Mr. Adamson. Do you take an active part in the management and
affairs of the Joint Anti-Fascist Committee?
Dr. Miller. Not particularly. I am a member of the executive
committee.
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barsky, your chairman, has testified here pre-
viously that when he was served with a subpena requiring him to
produce before this committee books, records, and papers of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Committee, Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, he laid the
matter before the executive board, and the executive board voted
unanimously instructing him not to produce the books, papers, and
records. I want to ask you if you attended that meeting in person.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 65
Dr. Miller. I did not.
Mr. Adamson. How did you participate in it, by telephone or proxy
or just how ?
Dr. Miller. The truth is I don't recall whether I was telephoned or
whether by proxy.
Mr. Landis. Did you participate in any way in the vote?
Dr. Miller. No ; I don't think I did.
Mr. Adamson. Not even by telephone ?
Dr. Miller. I don't believe I did. They may have tried to reach
me, but I am so active in my practice that they may have slipped up
on that.
Mr. Adamson. So, when Dr. Barsky said the board was unanimous,
that was not quite correct ? Is that true ?
Dr. Miller. I suppose, insofar as those who were present at the
meeting are concerned, the vote may have been unanimous. But all
this is unfamiliar to me. Not having direct knowledge, naturally, I
am not in a position to say. '
Mr. Adamson. Do you recall discussing the matter with anyone?
Dr. Miller. Not prior to the vote, and for a considerable while after
the vote had been taken.
Mr. Adamson. Then you did know about it after the action was
taken ?
Dr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Adamson. In other words, you knew that the executive-board
members or. rather, the other members of the board, had acted in
that manner ?
Dr. Miller. Yes ; I heard talk to that effect.
Mr. Adamson. Did you also hear that Miss Helen Bryan had been
subpenaed and that she had refused to produce these same books,
records, and papers ?
Dr. Miller. Well, none of this situation is within my direct knowl-
edge or participation.
Mr. Adamson. You knew that, though, didn't you? You knew
Miss Bryan ?
Dr. Miller. I read things in the newspapers. I heard, and I met
people who met other people. I mean that is the extent of my knowl-
edge.
Mr. Adamson. You are here today in answer to a subpena which
was served upon you by the committee ? Is that right ?
Dr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. Have you got that subpena with you ?
Dr. Miller. I have [producing the subpena].
Mr. Adamson. Mr. Chairman, I offer this as part of the testimony
of this witness.
Tlie Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena addressed to Dr. Louis Miller follows :)
COPY
By AuTHORirr op the House of Representatives of the Congress of the United
States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Dr. Louis Miller, 400 West End, New
York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee to be and appear before the Un-American Activities Committee of
66 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES .
the House of Representatives of the United States, of which the Honorable John
S. Wood is chairman and to bring with you all books, ledgers, records, and papers
relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on account of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommittee thereof,
together with all correspondence and memoranda of communications by any
means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The said books, papers,
and records demanded herein are for the period from January 1, 1945, up to and
including the date of this subpena, in their chamber in the city of Washington,
on April 4, 1946, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify touching matters
of inquiry committed to said committee; and he is not to depart without leave of
said committee.
Herein fail not and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March, 1946.
John S. Wood, Cliairman.
Attest :
John W. Caeeington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. When was it served?
Dr. Miller. One day last week, perhaps Wednesday or Thursday.
I am not sure.
Mr. Adamson. And when you were served with this subpena did
you confer with Dr. Barsky or any of the other members of the board
about it?
Dr. Miller. Yes; I did. I conferred with counsel also.
Mr. Adamson. You mean Mr. Wolf?
Dr. Miller. At about the same time — yes, Mr. Wolf and other legal
people, attorneys.
Mr. Adamson. This subpena calls for the production of the books,
papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee.
Have you brought any of the books, papers, and records with you
today ?
Dr. Miller. Mj^ answer to that question I have here, Mr. Chairman
tproducing a paper].
The Chairman. We have already got that. You can just leave it.
Mr. Adamson. Give it to the reporter, and he will copy it in the
record.
(The paper referred to follows: )
I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear and testify and
to produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control. I individually do
not have possession, custody, or control over any of the material requested in
the subpena which was served upon me. The books, records, and correspondence
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are in the possession, custody, and
control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive secretary of our organization, and
she is the legal custodian of this material. Since I do not have either in my
possession, custody, or control the books, records, and documents described iu
the subpena, I am unable to comply with your order to produce them.
Dr. Miller. For the record, I am not able to answer the question in
the form in which you put it.
Mr. Adamson. We will take that as your answer. We have heard
that a good many times already.
Mr. Rankin. Let him tell us who wrote this.
Mr. Adamson. Where did you get this statement, Doctor?
Dr. Miller. Actually I got this from one of the other members of
the board. I don't remember which one. But in substance it contains
the answer — — ■
Mr. Landis (interposing). You didn't write the statement?
Dr. Miller. No ; I did not personally write the statement.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 67
Mr. Adamson. But you agree with what is in the statement? Is
that what you mean to say ?
Dr. Miller. I do ; yes.
The Chaikman. The statement was actually prepared by an attorney
by the name of Wolf who is outside now, was it not ?
Dr. Miller. I can't say who prepared it actually.
The Chairman. It was simply given to you?
Dr. Miller. That's right.
Mr. Thomas. When was it given to you?
Dr. Miller. A few days ago.
Mr. Thomas. Who gave it to you ?
Dr. Miller. I don't remember which member of the board it was.
Mr. Thomas. Now, Doctor, you are a man of great education, and
3^ou have had a lot of experience, and as a medical man you must have
a good memory. Can't you recall who gave you that ?
Dr. Miller. Honestly, I can't recall. It was some man of the board
or some woman of the board. The paper was handed me at a time
when there was a lot of activity going on within the group.
Mr. Thomas. Activity within this group?
Dr. Miller. That is right. Pertaining to a defense.
The Chairman. By that you mean how you were going to get around
not producing these records?
Dr. Miller. No, sir.
The Chairman. Defending against the subpena?
Dr. Miller. No, not at all.
The Chairman. What sort of defense was it? You said "defense."
What sort of defense ?
Dr. Miller. As to who had custody of the books. I wanted to know
for myself what position I personally was in.
The Chairman. Why did you use the word "defense" ?
Dr. Miller. That was the wrong word to use.
The Chairman. You slipped up on that and spoke too quickly,
didn't you ?
Dr. Miller. Well, I don't know. I am not an attorney. I am just a
physician.
ikr. Thomas. Now, just let me continue. This activity that you refer
to, where did the activity take place? You said there were a number
of members of the board around, and there was a lot of activity.
Dr. Miller. I don't see that all this is pertinent. I think I have
answered in my original statement.
Mr. Thomas. When you met with the board, Mr. Wolf, the attorney,
was there ?
Dr. Miller. I didn't meet officially with the board. I just met some
of the people.
Mr. Thomas. Now, where was that ?
Dr. Miller. As I said a moment ago, I don't see the pertinence of
this.
Mr. Landis. Do you remember what day it was ?
Dr. Miller. I do not.
Mr. Thomas. Who told you to say it was not pertinent?
Dr. Miller. In my opinion it is not pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. The reason I mention that is that every witness that
has come here before today has said the same thing.
68 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. Miller. Mr. Congressman, I would appreciate it if you would
restate your question,
IVIr, Thomas. M}' question is, where did j^ou meet with these other
members at this time that you discussed this question?
Dr. Miller. Well, I don't believe that that has any relevance to
the question at issue here.
Mr. Thomas. What I am trying- to find out is to get the background
of your statement in which you say that you have presented that state-
ment there as your answer to us. Now you say you met with some 1
members of the board. Where did you meet with them? Did you
meet at your office ?
Dr. Miller. I still don't think that is pertinent. I am not here to
give you that information.
Mr. Thomas. You are not here to give us information?
Dr. Miller. I mean pertaining to what my personal activities
have been.
Mr. Thomas. I am not questioning you about your personal activ-
ities. What I am trying to find out is about the executive committee
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee. I am trying to find
out where this meeting was held that you attended, at which you
discussed this paper.
Dr. Miller. There was no meeting held. There was no official
meeting held. I am not referring to any official meeting.
Mr. Thomas. I am not talking about an official meeting. I am talk-
ing about the gathering that you yourself mentioned. Where was
the gathering ?
Dr. Miller. I mean I meet people right along. There was no
specific meeting.
Mr. Thomas. But you say somebody handed that paper to you.
Dr. Miller. Yes; and that constitutes my answer, and I don't see
the relevance
Mr. Thomas (interposing). I am trying to refresh your memory a
little in order to enable you to tell us just who it was that handed you
that paper.
Dr. Miller. Will you allow me to consult my attorney ?
Mr. Thomas. This is not a legal question. That is a question of
fact.
Dr. Miller. I will ask my attorney if that question is relevant to
this inquiry.
The Chairman. We are not interested in the attorney's opinion
as to the relevancy of it.
Dr. Miller. I don't think there is any relevancy.
The Chairman. Do you object to answering the question? What
are you folks trying to conceal ?
Dr. Miller. I don't think we are trying to conceal anything.
The Chairman. You don't ?
Dr. Miller. No. I just have nothing to deliver here, personally.
The Chairman. Not even the truth ?
Dr. Miller. Oh, yes ; the truth. Insofar as I am not in a capacity
to deliver any documents, for I don't have any documents.
The Chairman. Why don't you answer the question, then, if you
don't mind telling the truth?
Dr. Miller. He has asked me questions which are far removed,
and I don't think have any bearing on the situation at all.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 69
Mr. Thomas. Then I will ask you another question. If you did
have custody of these books would you be willing to turn them over
to us ?
Dr. Miller. I am not prepared to answer a hypothetical question.
That is also irrevelant.
Mr. Landis. Would you be in favor, as a member of the board, of
having Helen Bryan, who does have the custody of these books and
papers, turn them over to us ?
Dr. MtLi^R. Well, considering it, I would first consult proper
counsel and have my counsel advise me to make up my mind.
The Chairman. Why would you consult counsel?
Dr. Miller. Because I am not versed on the law as to the validity
of the request. It is a legal question.
The Chairman. Let me see if I understand you. You mean by
that that you would not be willing to let this committee see those
books unless the law requires you to do it? Is that what you mean?
Dr. Miller. Unless the law required me to do it and
The Chairman (interposing). You would not do it?
Dr. Miller. I am not saying that at all.
The Chairman. What do you say?
Dr. Miller. I might do it if my attorney would advise me to do it.
But I still say this is a hypothetical question.
The Chairman. Has he advised you not to do it?
Dr. Miller. My attorney has not advised me anything, for the rea-
son that my attorney is aware of the fact that I am in no position to
deliver material, even if I wanted to.
The Chairman. You say he has not advised you either way since
you were served with the subpena ?
Dr. Miller. I have not been with him constantly.
The Chairman. Have you asked him whether or not you should
obey the subpena ?
Dr. Mili-er. Wliether I should obey the subpena ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Dr. Miller. No ; I didn't think it necessary to ask him. I knew .
I had to obey the subpena.
Mr. Thomas. But you didn't obey the subpena.
Dr. Miller. Only insofar as delivery of the material is concerned,
which is not in my possession and not in my control. That is the fact
here.
The Chairman. What are the functions of the executive board of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Dr. Miller. To plan the campaign for fund raising, to plan the
project insofar as administering relief is concerned in various coun-
tries ; to see to it that the organization is run efficiently, economically ;
to keep the overhead of the committee at as low a minimum as possible.
The Chairman. In other words, its function is to direct, govern, and ,
direct the activities of the committee?
Dr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. And also its policy?
Dr. Miller. I suppose so.
The Chairman. Do you know of any other authority in this organ-
ization higher than the executive board ?
Dr. Miller. No ; I know of no other.
The Chairman. You in fact have no other authority at all ; do you ?
70 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. Miller. No.
The Chairman. It has supreme authority, so far as the activities
of this committee are concerned ?
Dr. Miller. Yes.
The Chairman. Over the activities of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refu-
gee Committee it has absolute authority ?
Dr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. As a member of that board, having absolute au-
thority over the activities of the personnel, I will ask you whether or
not you today are ready for this committee of Congress to have access
to these books as called for in the subpena ?
Dr. Miller. You are putting that question to me as an individual.
I still say that as an individual I do not have control. That is a ques-
tion for the entire body.
The Chairman. That was not what I asked you. I asked you if you
yourself were willing for us to see them.
Dr. Miller. That is immaterial. I again say that I would have to
ask counsel what to do with the material if the material were in my
custody, which it is not.
The Chairman. Because you think it is immaterial, you would not
answer the question one way or the other at this time? Is that right?
Dr. Miller. That is right
The Chairman. Notwithstanding the fact that you have had the
subpena now since last Thursday or Friday, approximately 1 week?
That is true, isn't it ? Today is Thursday. You have had that subpena
approximate!}' 1 week.
Dr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. That's all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Herman Shumlin.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN SHUMLIN, NEW YOEK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and address to the re-
porter ?
Mr. Shumlin. May I have my lawyer present?
Mr. Adamson. Give j^our name and address first.
Mr. Shumlin. Herman Shumlin, 229 West Fourty-second Street,
New York City.
Mr. Adamson. Is that your residence address or office address?
Mr. Shumlin. That is my office.
Mr. Adamson. Wliere is your residence?
Mr. Shumlin. 115 East Seventieth Street. May I have counsel
present ?
The Chairman. I will advise you, Mr. Shumlin, if during the course
of the examination there should arise any legal question that neces-
sitates your getting legal advice before you answer it, you have the
right to go out and consult your counsel.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Mr. Shumlin, what business are you in?
Mr. Shutvilin. I am a theatrical producer and director.
Mr. Adamson. And how long have you been engaged in that busi-
ness?
Mr. Shumlin. About 25 years.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 71
Mr. Adamson. All within New York City ? \
Mr. Shumlin. Yes. I spent some time in California, in the motion-
picture business.
Mr. Adamson. I assume that you are a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Shumlin. I was born here.
Mr. Adamson. You were born in New York ?
Mr. Shumlin. No; in Colorado.
Mr. Adamson. You are here today in compliance with a subpena
from this committee requesting the production of books, papers, and
records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee? Is that cor-
rect ?
Mr. Shu]vilin. That is correct.
Mr. Adamson. Have you the copy of the subpena that was served
upon you ?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes [producing the subpena] .
Mr. Adamson. I offer tliis as part of the testimony of this witness,
Mr, Chairman.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena served on Herman Shumlin follows:)
COPY
By AtTTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATTVES OF THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED
States of America
To the Sergeant at Arms, or His Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mr. Herman ShuraUn, 229 West Forty-
second Street, New York City, a member of the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American Acti-
vities Committee of the House of Representatives of the United States, of which
the Honorable John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you all books, ledgers,
records, and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on
account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or sub-
committee thereof, together with all correspondence and memoranda of com-
munications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign countries. The
said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the period from January
1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in their chamber in the
city of Washington, on April 4, 1^6, at the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to
testify touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee ; and he is not
to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein 'fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Carbington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Mr, Shumlin, are you a member of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Shumlin. I am.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know exactly, but I have been a member for
several years.
Mr. Adamson. Were you a member at the inception of the organi-
zation in 1942 'i
Mr. Shumlin. I am not positive, I may have been. I wouldn't
say "no." I haven't looked it up.
Mr, Adamson, Were you affiliated with any of the prior organiza-
tions from which this organization grew ?
72 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know what it grew from. I have always
been interested in the cause of the Spanish Loyalists, if that is what
you mean.
Mr. Adamson. Were you affiliated with any of the Spanish relief
organizations prior to 1942 ?
Mr. Shumlin. Affiliated in what sense ?
Mr. Adamson. Did you belong to them?
. Mr. Shumlin. I don't think so. I may have contributed money to
them.
Mr. Adamson. But you took no active part?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't believe so.
Mr. Adamson. Do you take any active part in the management and
operation of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Shumlin. I am a member of the executive board.
Mr. Adamson. Do you attend executive board meetings?
Mr. Shumlin. I have not attended many.
Mr. Adamson. When did you attend the last one ?
Mr. Shumlin. I think perhaps 2 weeks ago. I am not sure.
Mr. Adamson. Your chairman, Dr. Barsky, has testified previously
ibefore this committee than when he was served with a subpena from
the committee requiring the production of its books, papers, and
records, he laid the matter before your executive board, and the
executive board voted unanimously to instruct him not to produce
books, papers, and records before the committee. I want to ask you
if you were present personally at that meeting ?
Mr. Shumlin. I was not.
Ml'. Abamson, How did you participate in it, by telephone or by
proxy ?
Mr. Shumlin. I did not participate in it.
Mr. Adamson. You were not called upon over the telephone ?
Mr. Shumlin. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And you did not vote vote at all?
Mr. Shumlin. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And the board did not vote unanimously ?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know how they voted. I was not there.
Mr. Adamson. It could not have been unanimous if you \vere ab-
sent, could it ?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know what unanimity refers to in this case.
The Chairman. A unanimous vote of the board.
Mr. Shumlin. Unanimous of those who were present. Isn't that
the \\ay it usually is? All I know is that I was not present.
The Chairman. And you did not vote ?
Mr. Shumlin. I did not.
The Chairman. Notwithstanding vou were at that time a member
of the board ?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes. I was out of town, as a matter o,f fact. They
may have called me. I don't know.
Mr. Adamson. Now, you are referring to a meeting 2 weeks ago.
Was that in regard to this matter here ?
Mr. Shumlin. It was in regard to this matter. If I can remember
exactly. Dr. Barsky had appeared here, and there was a threat or
promise by this committee to cite all the members of the Board. The
meeting was in that connection, to talk about that.
Mr. Adamson. Did you vote at that meeting ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 73
Mr. Shumlin. No, nothing was voted on.
Mr. Adamson. Just an informative meeting?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. A meeting of the members of the board?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. At that time was that the first news you liad of the
refusal of the committee, through its officers, to produce the books,
papers, and records before tliis committee? Had you known about it
before the meeting 2 weeks ago ?
Mr. Shumlin. Had I known about what, sir? Be more specific.
Mr, Adamson. About Dr. Barsky and Miss Bryan's refusal to pro-
duce the books, papers, and records here before the committee.
INIr. Shumlin. I knew very little about it. I was very busy. I
was out of town for 2 weeks before that. I was very busy.
Mr. Thomas. Where were you out of town ?
Mr. Shumlin. In Philadelphia.
Mr. Adamson. Then 2 weeks ago was the first discussion you had
about it?
Mr. Shumlin. I wouldn't say exactly 2 weeks ago. Whenever it
was, it was after Dr. Barsky had appeared before you.
Mr. Adamson. Well, say 3 weeks ago ?
Mr. Shumlin. Wlienever it was.
Mr. Adamson. That was the first time you had had any discussion-;
with the other members of the board concerning the situation?
Mr. Shumlin. Tliat's right.
Mr. Adamson. Let me ask you now, will you consent at this time,
as a member of the board, to permit the investigators of this com-
mittee to inspect the books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Shumlin. As a member of the board it seems to me I would
have to meet with them.
Mr. Adamson. All right, what is your disposition on the point?
Are you willing for the committee to see the books, papers, and
records? Have you got there anything that you know of that you
would want to hide ?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know anything about the papers or books.
I have never seen them.
Mr. Adamson. You don't know anything about them? Well then,
are you quite willing for the investigators of this committee to see
what is in them ?
Mr. Shumlin. I would be able to answer that only after a proper
meeting of tlie board.
Mr. Thomas. AVho told you to say that ?
Mr. Shumlin. Nobody has told me to say anything. I have natu-
rally consulted with attorneys on my legal rights.
Mr. Thomas. Who was your attorney ?
Mr. Shumlin. Benedict Wolf.
Mr. Thomas. What is his address ? ■,
Mr. Shumlin. 160 Broadway.
Mr. Landis. Does the board have jurisdiction over these papers, or
Helen Bryan?
Mr. Shumlin. I understand Miss Helen Bryan has jurisdiction
over them.
74 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
INIr. Thomas. You say we could get access to them through her,
without the board's approval ?
Mr. Shumlin. I presume so. The board has instructed her, I
understand, to do whatever is necessary legally.
Mr. Adamson. Did they instruct her to produce the books and
papers here?
Mr. Shumlin. As I understand it, they instructed her to do every-
thing that was within the law, to obey the law, to protect the books.
The Chairman. Protect them from whom ? From us ?
Mr. Shumlin. Protect them from whom ?
The Chairman. From us, from this committee ?
Mr. Shumlin. I have no idea. Is there anybody else after them?
The Chairman. Not that I know of. That is the reason I asked
you.
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know.
The Chairman. So she has been instructed by the board to do every-
thing she can within the law to keep this committee from getting
them ?
Mr. Shumlin. I wouldn't say that.
The Chairman. Would you say that is not the instruction?
Mr. Shumlin. I understand the resolution that was passed — I was
not there — was that she was to protect the books, keep entirely within
the law, consult lawyers, and be sure she did what was right.
The Chairman. Consult lawyers for the board ?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know what lawyers she consulted.
Mr. Adamson. But she was to protect the books, so far as the law
allowed ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Shumlin. That is as I understand it.
The Chairman. Do you subscribe to that instruction now ?
Mr. Shumlin. I see nothing wrong about it.
The Chairman. You have taken no action yourself since you were
served with this subpena ? By the way, I will ask you when you were
served with it ?
Mr. Shumlin. Last Saturday.
The Chairman. That was last Saturday, and today is Thursday.
Mr. Shumlin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So you have had Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, and you have taken no action to get those records and
books available to this committee since you were served with the
subpena ?
Mr. Shuinilin. To get the books myself ?
The Chairman. To get them here to this committee.
Mr. Shumlin. I wouldn't know how to do that. ;
The Chairman. You would not ?
Mr. Shumlin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Haven't you just testified a while ago that the
executive board, that you are a member of, is the supreme authority in
this organization ?
Mr. Shumlin. I am just one member.
The Chairman. I understand, but as one member, have you done
anything to get the books down here ?
Mr. Shumlin. I have done nothing.
The Chairman. Nothing at all ? You made no attempt yourself as
a member of the board to comply with this subpena?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 75
Mr. Shumlin. I could not possibly comply with it.
The Chairman. I asked you if you made any attempt to do it?
Mr. Shumlin. I say I could not possibly comply with it. ,
The Chairman. Have you made any attempt to ?
Mr. Shumlin. I say again I could not possibly comply with it.
The Chairman. Then will you answer my question? Have you
made any effort to do so ?
Mr. Shumlin. Have I made any effort to bring the books here?
The Chairman. To comply with that subpena.
Mr. Shumlin. That does not seem to me a pertinent question.
The Chairman. It does very much to me, and I will ask you if you
will answer it, if you have made any attempt at all, made any effort
whatever to comply with the provisions of that subpena ^
Mr. Shumlin. Well, to repeat myself , it doesn't seem to me a perti-
nent question.
The Chairman. For that reason you decline to answer it?
Mr. Shumlin. I would like to consult my attorney.
The Chairman. That is a fact. That is not a law question.
Mr. Shumlin. May I ask my attorney ?
The Chairman. Ask him what? *
Mr. Shumlin. Whether it is a pertinent question or not.
The Chairman. Can't you pass on that question ?
Mr. Shu3ilin. I am not a lawyer. I told you I didn't think it was
a pertinent question.
The Chairman. Then you decline to answer it for that reason?
You have a right to decline to answer it if you want to.
Mr. Shumlin. I have told you several times that I thought it was
not a pertinent question. I then asked if I could confer with my
attorney whether it was right or wrong.
The Chairman. We had one witness here that asked that privilege
this morning, and the witness went out and the lawyer told her that
her question to him was impertinent.
Mr. Shumlin. Do you wish me to ask him ?
The Ciiair^man. I don't think we could accomplish any good pur-
pose by having you go out and have him tell you that you were imperti-
nent in asking him that question.
Mr. Shumlin. That remains to be seen. I don't know what his
answer would be. I am not as experienced as you are in these matters.
The Chairihan. Obviously the attorney is not going to give you any
information that will enable you to tell any more about what the truth
is than you yourself know, and that is all we want, is the truth.
Mr. Shumlin. Would you repeat that ?
The Chairman. I say, all we want is the truth, and obviously the
attorney is not able to give you what the truth is any more than you
already know. You know what is in your mind, whether you are
willing for this committee to have access to these books and records
called for in that subpena, and I am asking you just in common honesty
to tell this committee whether you are willing or not to do that, you
personally, just common honesty.
Mr. Shumlin. Your committee?
The Chairman. Whether you, yourself individually, are willing for
this committee to have access to the books of your organization.
Mr. Shumi^in. I didn't understand it that way. What is your
question ?
76 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. That is my question.
Mr. Shumlix. You asked nie if I had made any effort.
The Chairman. I did a while ago, but I am asking now if you are
willing.
Mr. Shumlin. You have withdrawn that question?
The Chairman. You declined to answer.
Mr. Shumlin. I did not decline to answer.
The Chairman. Then I will ask it again.
Mr. Shumlin. May I ask my attorney ?
The Chairman. I am asking you if you want to answer it.
Mr. Shumlin. You told me before I could ask my attorney. Why
don't you allow me to ?
The Chairman. Very well, go ahead.
Mr. Thomas. Do you know what you are going to ask him ?
Mr. Shumlin. Whether I have made any effort to secure the books
here.
Mr, Thomas. And he is going to tell you whether you have made
any effort?
Mr. Shumlin. Whether it is a pertinent question.
(The witness left the committee room for a few minutes.)
Mr. Shumlin. My attorney advised that it was a pertinent ques-
tion, and my answer to it was pertinent, which was more or less that
I had made no effort, because the books could not be in my custody.
I could never get them.
The Chairman. And you say now that you are unable to produce
them, and assuming that all of the other members of the executive
board were of the same opinion as you, you could not produce these
books ? Is that right ?
Mr. Shumlin. I make no such assumption in the first place. In the
second place, I have no right to have these books.
The Chairman. Who has them?
Mr. Shumlin. They are in the custody of the executive secretary.
Miss Helen Bryan.
The Chairman. Under whose direction?
Mr. Shumlin. Under whose direction?
The Chairman. Yes. Who directed her to take charge of them?
Mr. Shumlin. She has always been in custody of the books.
The Chairman, By whose authority?
Mr. Shumlin. By the authority of the board of directors.
The Chairman. The executive board of which you are director ?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, All right now. Doctor, the executive board
Mr, Shumlin (interposing). No; I am not a doctor, thank you.
The Chairman, I beg pardon.
Mr. Thomas, We have had so many doctors today we get them
confused.
The Chairman, Mr, Shumlin, this executive board has as much
authority to change the direction as they have to give it haven't they?
Mr, Shumlin. I think so.
The Chairman, Now, we will [)ass along to the last question I asked
you a while ago before you went out, I will make a request of you,
acting as chairman of the Committee on Un-American Activities of
the Congress of the United States, to you as a member of the execu-
tive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, for your
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 77
permission — just yours, nobody else but yours — to allow this com-
mittee to see these books.
Mr. Shumlin. You are asking me to let you see the books ?
The Chairman. I am asking you for your permission to do it, ir-
respective of what authority that permission carries. I want your
permission to see them. May I have it ?
Mr. SnuMLiN. I don't see any way that I could give it.
The Chairman. That's all.
Mr, Adamson. Let me ask him one question. Have you produced
here today, in compliance wnth this subpena, any books, papers, or
records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refuge Committee ?
Mr. SiiUMLiN. The books, papers, and records are not in my cus-
tody, therefore it would be impossible to produce them.
Mr. Adamson. Then your answer is you have not produced them ?
Mr. Shumlin. I could not produce them, any more than I could
produce an April shower.
Mr. Adamson. You have not produced them today ?
Mr. Shumlin. I have given you my answer. If you wish it re-
peated I will be glad to repeat it.
Mr. Thomas. You also have that mimeographed statement that
Mr. Wolf gave you?
Mr. Shumlin. No; I do not.
Mr. Thomas. They didn't give you one?
Mr. Shumlin. There was some statement, but I didn't keep it.
Mr. Thomas. What do you mean, there was a statement?
Mr. Shumlin. Some of the other people had one, and I talked to
him and he gave me one.
Mr. Thomas. Then you gave it back to him ?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't know what I did with it. I haven't got it.
I may have torn it up ; thrown it away.
Mr. Thomas. It was given to you yesterday, was it? When was it
given to you ?
Mr. Shumlin. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Thomas. It wasn't given to you today, though ?
Mr. Shumlin. No.
Mr. Thomas. Do you remember where it was given to you ?
Mr. Shumlin. I went down to his office and talked it over with him.
Mr. Thomas. With Mr. Wolf?
Mr. Shumlin. To Mr. Wolf's office.
Mr. Thomas. And he gave it to you then and there ?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Were the other members of the committee down there
too ?
Mr. Shumlin. Yes; some of them. I don't know if all of them
were there.
Mr. Thomas. That's all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. Call Mrs. Charlotte Stern.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLOTTE STERN, NEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your full name and address to the
reporter ?
85148—46 6
78 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Stern. Charlotte Stern, 305 West Forty-fourth Street, New
York City.
Mr. Adamson. Are you enoaged in any business or profession ?
Mrs. Stern. I am an officer of the Hotel and Club Employees
Union.
Mr. Adamson. What office do you hold ?
Mrs. Stern. Educational work director.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been witli them, Mrs. Stern,
just approximately ?
Mrs. Stern. Two years.
Mr. Adamson. And is that your regular profession or line of work ;
education ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Were you a teacher before that?
Mrs. Stern. It seems to me that is immaterial to the inquiry.
Mr. Adamson. We just want to try to identify you. That is all.
The Chairman. You are not ashamed of it. are you ?
Mrs. Stern. Oh, no; no, indeed. I have been a teacher some
years ago.
Mr. Adamson. In New York ?
Mrs. Stern. In Massachusetts.
Mr. Adamson. By the way, are you a native of Massachusetts?
Mrs. Stern. I am a native of Massachusetts.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been in New York ?
Mrs. Stern. Some 20 years. '
Mr. Adamson. Now, Mrs. Stern, were you served with a subpena
from this committee?
Mrs. Stern." Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Wliat date?
Mrs. Stern. I believe it was last Friday. I am not sure. I don't
recall exactly.
Mr. Adamson. Do you have the copy of your subpena with you ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes [producing a subpena].
Mr. Adamson. I offer this, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the
testimony of this witness.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena addressed to Mrs. Charlotte Stern follows:)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergeant at A'tyns, 07- Ms Special Messenger:
You are hereby commanded to summon Mrs. Charlotte Stern, Hotel and Club
Employees Local' No. 6, 30^ West Forty-fourth Street, New York City, a member
of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and
appear before the Un-American Activities Committee of the House of Repi'e-
sentatives of the United States, of which the Hon. John S. Wood is chairman,
and to bring with you all books, ledgers, records, and papers relating to the
receipt and disbursements of money by or on account of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommittee thereof, together with
all coi-respondence and memoranda of communications by any means whatsoever
with persons in foreign countries. The said books, papers, and records demanded
herein are for the period from January 1, 1945, up to and including the date of
this subpena, in their chamber in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at
the hour of 10 a. m., then and there to testify touching matters of inquiry com-
mitted to said committee ; and he is not to depart without leave of said committee.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 79
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
"Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March, 194G.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest :
John W. Careington, Clerk.
Mr. Adamson. Mrs. Stern, are you a member of the executive board
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Mrs. Stern. I am.
Mr. Adamson. And how long- have been a member ?
Mrs. Stern. I believe since I joined the committee at the end of 1944.
Mr. Adamson. That would be about 18 months.
Mrs. Stern. About that.
Mr. Adamson. Were you a member of the committee before you
went on the board ?
Mrs. Stern. No ; I was not on the committee.
Mr. Adamson. Were you affiliated with any of the Spanish Relief
Societies prior to that time ?
Mrs. Stern. No.
Mr. Adamson. Can you recall how you became affiliated with the
board? Dr. Barsky or someone solicited your membership?
Mrs. Stern. I believe I was invited by the board to join them.
Mr. Adamson. Did you know that Miss Helen Bryan, executive
secretary of the committee, had been subpenaed previously by this
committee, and that she had refused to produce certain books, papers,
and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee before this
committee ?
Mrs. Stern. I didn't get the question. Did I know what?
Mr. Adamson. That Miss Helen Bryan had already been subpenaed
before this committee and that she had refused to produce books,
i^apers, and records ?
Mrs. Stern. I had heard about it before ; yes.
Mr. Adamson. And when was the last date on which you attended
a meeting of the executive board ?
Mrs. Stern. I believe it was February 11.
Mr. Adamson. At that time wasn't that sort of an informative meet-
ing at which this matter was reviewed ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't believe that that matter was reviewed at that
meeting.
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barsky, your chairman, has testified previously
that when he was served with a subpena from this committee calling
for the production of the books, papers, and records, he laid the matter
before your board and your board voted unanimously to instruct him
not to comply with the subpena.
Mrs. Stern. You are not referring to Dr. Barsky? You are re-
ferring to Miss Bryan ?
Mr. Adamson. No ; Dr. Barsky so testified.
Mrs. Stern. But in your previous question you didn't refer to Dr.
Barsky.
Mr. Adamson. No ; I asked you if you knew about Miss Bryan, and
you said you had heard about it.
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Now I am asking you about Dr. Barsky, who testi-
fied before this committee some time ago. What I want to know is, did
80 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
you take part in that meeting of the executive board by your i^ersonal
attendance ? In other words, did you go to the meeting in person ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't think I attended the meeting on February 11.
I don't know that I understand your question.
Mr, Adamson. Maybe it will be shorter if I ask you then what was
the purpose of the meeting on February 11?
Mrs. Stern. I am sorry to say I don't remember.
Mr. Landis. Did you vote on anything at that time ?
Mrs. Stern. I believe at that time there was some discussion in re-
gard to a dinner that was being held, but I don't recall anything else.
Mr. Adamson. Didn't you vote some time within the last 3 months
on a question of whether or not Mr. Barsky should comply with the
subpena which was served upon him by this committee ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And about when was that?
Mrs. Stern. I believe I was requested to present my vote by tele-
phone. I was not at any meeting and asked to vote. I was asked what
my opinion was, what my vote was.
Mr. Adamson. Can you tell us whether that was before or after
the February 11 meeting that you refer to ?
Mrs. Stern. I believe it was after. I am not sure. I believe it was.
Mr. Adamson. Did you vote over the telephone in the affirmative or
the negative on that matter ?
Mrs. Stern. It seems to me that that is not pertinent. You know
the decision of the board.
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barsky said it was unanimous. I merely wanted
to ask you about it.
Mrs. Stern. It was unanimous.
Mr. Adamson. It was unanimous ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. So you did vote in the affirmative ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't believe that is pertinent. The decision of the
committee was as a whole.
Mr. Adamson. What did you do when you were called up? Did
you recognize the person with whom you were talking ?
Mrs. Stern. Obviously, it is clear that the vote was unanimous.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question. On February 13 of
this year Dr. Barsky appeared in this room before this committee
and stated that he was here in response to a subpena similar to the
subpena that was served on you, that you have produced here, and he
said that before he left his New York office he took up with the execu-
tive board the question of whether or not he should comply with the
subpena and produce the books and records. That was on the 13th of
February, anct I will read from his testimony :
They refused to grant me i)ermission to submit these records.
Now, was that the vote you speak of that was unanimous ?
Mrs. Stern. I believe so.
The Chairman. And I will ask you now, Mrs. Stern, as chairman
of this committee on Un-American Activities of the Congress, I ask
you as a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee for your personal permission to permit us to see
the books and records. Will you give it to us or not ?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 81
Mrs. Stern. I cannot comply with your request because I do not
have the books and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Com-
mittee.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you are will-
ing now to give your personal consent, for whatever it is worth, for
us to see these books. Do you want to answer that question or not?
Mrs. Stern. I would like to consult counsel on that.
The Chairman. Wliy do you want to consult counsel ? Do you think
counsel can help you make up your mind ?
Mrs. Stern. I' should like to consult counsel as to whether I jam|
compelled to answer.
The Chairman. You don't have to answer. I will tell you that, and
you don't have to consult your counsel about it unless you want to.
Mrs. Stern. I would like to.
The Chairman. All I am trying to do is to get the truth. Do you
need help to find the truth in your own mind?
Mrs. Stern. I would rather not answer.
Mr. Thomas. Do you want to consult your counsel ?
Mrs. Stern. I would like to.
The Chairman. Very well.
(The Avitness withdrew fi-oni the connnittee room for a few min-
utes.)
Mrs. Stern. This will be a question for the entire board to decide.
The Chairman. Wait just a moment now. Are you now telling us
what your lawyer told you ?
Mrs. Stern, No.
The Chairman. Are you telling us what is in your own mind?
Mrs. Stern. I am telling you what is in the board's mind.
The Chairman. I haven't asked you a thing in the world about the
board. I asked you about yourself personally, whether you, so far
as your authority goes, are willing to give us permission to see the
books ?
Mrs. Stern. I would like to consult the other members of the board.
The Chairman. And until that happens you would not say one way
or the other? Is that right?
Mrs. Stern. That is right.
Mr. Lakdis. Did you attend the meeting Monday or Tuesday at the
lawyer's office?
Mrs. Stern. I haven't attended a meeting for weeks.
The Chairman. You mean you have not been to Mr. Wolf's office
for weeks?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. Have you got the statement there that the others had?
Mrs. Stern. I haven't seen a statement.
Mr. Thomas. You haven't seen a statement at all ?
Mrs. Stern. No. You mean the statement with regard to the books
and records?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mrs. Stern. Yes ; I have such a statement.
Mr. Thomas. You have got that statement ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Have you produced here today the books, papers,
and records, in compliance with the subpena ?
82 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Stern. I don't have them in my possession.
Mr. Adamson. You can get the statement out now.
Mr. Landis. Do you want to file that ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't think it is necessary.
The Chairman. I guess they are getting kind of ashamed of those
statements. There hasn't been one produced since noon. Everyone
before noon had this statement.
Mr. Thomas. I would like to follow up my question. This state-
ment that you say you have, and you have decided not to produce,
how did you get that statement ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't think that is pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. You don't think it is pertinent? Wouldn't you like
to discuss that with your attorney ? Because I would like to have you
go out and ask him that.
Mrs. Stern. I don't think so.
Mr. Thomas. Don't you want to go out and ask him ?
Mrs. Stern. No.
Mr. Thomas. Wliy don't you think it is pertinent ? The others have
answered the question.
Mrs. Stern. I don't have to answer any question I don't think are
pertinent, do I ?
Mr. Thomas. Wlio told you to say this was not pertinent ? That is
the same answer that other witnesses have given in regard to other
questions.
Mrs. Stern. Well, I think I am capable of making my own decisions.
Mr. Thomas. I fully appreciate that.
Mrs. Stern. And I am sure you would not question my ability to
do that.
Mr. Thomas. No ; I have no doubt about that. Just by looking at
you I can tell that you are a very capable pei^son. You decline, then,
to answer where you got the statement ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't think that question is pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. Now, you said you got a telephone call — I will forget
the statement — you said you got a telephone call from an employee
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee concerning this matter.
Did you recognize the voice on the other end of the wire?
Mrs. Stern. Well, the voice identified itself.
Mr. Thomas. It was Miss Bryan; wasn't it?
Mrs. Stern. I believe it was.
Mr. Thomas. You are a friend of Miss Bryan's, aren't you?
Mrs. Stern. Well, in a professional way.
Mr. Thomas. And it was Miss Bryan that influenced you to go on
this board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mrs. Stern. No; nobody influenced me.
Mr. Thomas. Who asked you to go on the board?
Mrs. Stern. I received a request from the members of the board,
and I complied with that request.
Mr. Thomas. Here is something that I suggest yon keep in mind :
You like Miss Bryan, and she has a nice pei-sonality. I think every-
body that comes in contact with her will agree to that. It is just
too bad that somebody instructed all of these witnesses today to say
that Miss Bryan has absolute custody of the books, because Miss
Bryan told us that she did not have the custody of the books, and
either Miss Bryan, who has a lot of witnesses against her today, all
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 83
against her, is not telling the truth or all of these witnesses are not
telling the truth in regard to it. What I am afraid of is that the testi-
mony that you have all given is going to do Miss Bryan untold harm,
and I make this suggestion to you that you think it over.
Mrs. Stern. I don't know the name of the gentleman who is
speaking.
The Chairman. Mr. Thomas. Now, Mrs. Stern, I want to see if I
have got the right impression about the executive board of this Joint
Anti-Fascist Kefugee Committee. That is the governing body of
the organization; isn't it?
Mrs. Stern. I believe so.
The Chairman. They make the policies and direct the activities
of the organization ?
Mrs. Stern. I think they do.
The Chairman. How many employees, paid employees, does the
organization have?
Mrs. Stern. I cannot tell you that.
The Chairman. Well, Miss Bryan is one?
Mrs. Stern. She is.
The Chairman. She is employed by the board and paid by the
board ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
The Chairman. Her salary is fixed by the board ?
Mrs. Stern. I believe so.
The Chairman. And this board is a voluntary governing body ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
The Chairman. The Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee is a
voluntary organization ? It is not incorporated ? .
Mrs. Stern. That is right.
The Chairman. And that board has the authority to employ, dis-
charge, fix the compensation of any employees they desire, and to di-
rect their duties and activities ; has it not ?
Mrs. Stern. I don't believe they have the authority to employ and
discharge all of their employees. I think Miss Bryan has considerable
authority.
The Chairman. Well, they certainly have authority over Miss
Bryan. They employed Miss Bryan, you say, and they fix the salary ?
Mrs. Stern. Yes.
The Chairman. They could discharge her tomorrow if they wanted
to, couldn't they ?
Mrs. Stern. Well, that would be a matter for the executive board to
decide.
The Chairman. That is what I say. They haA^e got that authoritv.
That's all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Jesse Tolmacli.
TESTIMONY OF DR. JESSE A. TOLMACH, NEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your full name and your address to
the reporter, please ?
Dr. Tolmach. Jesse A. Tolmach.
84 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Adamson. I notice the prefix "Doctor" before your name. Are
yon a practising physician ?
Dr. ToLMACH. May I bring my attorney in here?
Mr. Adamson. I want to identify you first. Are you a practicing
physician ?
Dr. ToLMACH. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Where is your office?
Dr. ToLMAcH. 30 West Fifty-ninth Street, New York City.
Mr. Adamson. And is your residence separate and apart from your
office?
Dr. ToLMACH. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Are you a native citizen of the United States ?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Born in New York?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir. May I bring my attorney in, gentlemen?
The Chairman. If, in the course of this examination any question
should arise involving a legal matter that you desire to confer with
your attorney about you will be given that privilege out there. I
assume he is still out there?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Dr. Tolmach, you are here today in compliance
with a subpena served upon you by this committee requiring your
presence and the production of books, papers, and records of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee. Is that correct?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Have you got the copy of your subpena with you ?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir [producing the subpena].
»Mr. Adamson. I offer this as part of the testimony of this witness,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. It will be received.
(The subpena addressed to Dr. Jesse Tolmach follows:)
COPY
By Authority of the House of Representatives of the Congress of the
United States of America
To the Sergemit at Arms, or His Special Messenger :
You are hereby commanded to summon Dr. Jesse Tolmach, 30 West Fifty-
ninth Street, New Yorli City, a member of the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, to be and appear before the Un-American
Activities Committee of tlie House of Representatives of the United States,
of which the Honorable John S. Wood is chairman, and to bring with you
all books, ledgers, records, and papers relating to the receipt and disbursement
of money by or on account of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any
subsidiary or subcommittee thereof, together with all correspondence and memo-
randa of communications by any means whatsoever with persons in foreign
countries. The said books, papers, and records demanded herein are for the
period from January 1, 1945, up to and including the date of this subpena, in
their chamber in the city of Washington, on April 4, 1946, at the our of 10 a. m.,
then and there to testify touching matters of inquiry committed to said committee ;
and he is not to depart without leave of said committee.
Herein fail not, and make return of this summons.
Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives of the United
States, at the city of Washington, this 29th day of March 1946.
John S. Wood, Chairman.
Attest : John W. Cakrington, Clerk.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 85
Mr. Adamson. Now, Mr. Tolmach, are you a member of the execu-
tive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Dr. TouMACH. I imi.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member ?
Dr. ToLMACH. I think since about 1942.
Mr. AoAMSOiSr. Then you were a member at its incepticm?
Dr. ToLMACH. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And were you affiliated with any of the Spanish
organizations that I imderstand were sort of parents of this organi-
zation ?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't know that that question is pertinent to the
issue. I would like to answer the question if I knew it is a pertinent
question.
The Chairman. Is there any objection on your part to identifying
yourself?
Dr. Tolmach. No, sir. I would just like to know if it is a per-
tinent question.
The Chairman. It is pertinent to this committee.
Dr. Tolmach. May I find out from mj^ lawyer?
Mr. Adamson. All right; go ahead.
Dr. Tolmach. Would you state the question again, please?
Mr. Adamson. Were you a member of any of the organizations
w^hich were predecessors of this organization ?
(The witness left the committee room for a few minutes.)
Dr. Tolmach. I consulted with the attorney and he told me that
that was not pertinent.
Mr. Adamson. Then you refuse to answer that question for that
reason ?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Adamson. What do you do ?
Dr. Tolmach. I have just been advised that it was not pertinent.
Mr. Landis. What would you do if you don't refuse?
Mr. Adamson. You have got to either refuse or answer. Which
will you do?
Dr. Tolmach. I can only say I have been advised that it was not
pertinent.
Mr. Adamson. Then you decline to answer the question for that
reason ?
Dr. Tolmach. My answer is that I have been advised that it is not
pertinent.
The Chairman. Irrespective of what you have been advised, the
question was asked you, and you have the option of answering it or
declining to answer. Which will you do ?
Dr. Tolmach. I am not in a position to make such technical deci-
sions.
Mr. Thomas. You are the witness.
Dr. Tolmach. I have asked the attorney, and the attorney
The Chatrman (interposing). Are you ashamed of your activities?
Dr. Tolmach. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you got anything to conceal about it?
Dr. Tolmach. No, sir.
The Chairman. All we wish is the truth. You took an oath that
you would tell the whole truth.
86 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. ToLMACH. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you don't want to answer it now?
Dr. ToLMACH. I still must sav I have been advised
Mr. Landis (interposing). Either answer it or decline to answer it.
Dr. ToLMACH. I answered the question by saying that I have been
advised that that question is not pertinent.
The Chairman. That is not an answer. That is an expression of
opinion. ^Vliat is j^our answer now, after expressing your opinion ?
Dr. Tolmach. It is my belief, after receiving advice from my coun-
sel, that the question is not pertinent.
The Chairman. Then what do you propose to do, answer it or not?
Dr. Tolmach. I can't answer it on that ground.
Mr. Adamson. Wliy didn't you say that in the beginning?
The Chairman. That is all we wanted. You just decline to answer.
Mr. Adamson. Now, Doctor, how long have you been engaged in
the practice of medicine?
Dr. Tolmach. 25 years.
Mr. Adamson. And I believe j^ou said you are a native of New
York?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. And have you brought with you today for the
benefit of this committee the books, papers, and records specified in
the subpena which was served upon you ?
Dr. Tolmach. I have the answer typed here.
Mr. Adamson. Just hand it to the reporter and we will type it in
as part of your answer.
Dr. Tolmach. May I have your assurance that this is my answer?
Mr. Adamson. Yes. We have got many others just like it.
Dr. Tolmach. All right.
(The statement referred to follows: )
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear
and testify and to produce certain book^, records, and correspondence of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control.
I individually do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the
material requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books,
records, and correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are
in the possession, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive
secretary of oiir organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material.
Since I do not have either in my possession, custody, or control the books,
records, and documents described in the subpena, I am unable to comply with
your order to produce them.
Mr. Adamson, Now tell me. Doctor, where did you obtain the type-
written statement which you have just handed to the reporter?
Dr. Tolmach. From the attorney.
Mr. Adamson. From Mr. Wolf ?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Is he your personal attorney or does he represent
the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Dr. Tolmach. He represents the executive board.
Mr. Adamson. Dr. Barsky, your chairman, has testified previously
before this committee that when he was served with a subpena at a
prior time, requiring the production of the books, papers, and records
of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, he laid the matter
before your executive board, and that a meeting was held by your
board and the board voted unanimously instructing him not to pro-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 87
duce the books, papers, and records. I want to ask you if you at-
tended that meeting personally ?
Dr. ToLMACH. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Did you participate in that decision by telephone or
by proxy or in any other way ?
Dr. ToLMACH. By telephone.
Mr. Adamson. And I take it that ]\liss Bryan called you on the
telephone. Is that correct ?
Dr. ToLMACH. I really can't say whether it was Miss Bryan or some-
one eise in the office. 1 don't know the name of the person. I do know
I was called by telephone.
The Chairman. Dr. Barsky testified that at that meeting — and I
quote the language he gave at the time, on the 13th day of February
in this room, Wednesday, February 13— he said that: "They"— the
executive board — "refused to grant me permission to submit these
records."
Is tliat the question that you voted on over the telephone?
Dr. ToLMACH. As I understood it, the board took the position that
Miss Helen R. Bryan was the custodian of the records, and that we
took the position that in view of that fact, and in view of the fact that
you had already subpenaed Miss Bryan, we saw no reason to transfer
the custodianship of the books and materials to Dr. Barsky.
The Chairman. Then I will ask you again if Dr. Barsky's testimony
that you refused to grant him permission to submit the records is
correct ?
Dr. Tolmach. Doesn't my answer answer that ?
The Chairman. No, it does not to me, and I would like to have a
positive answer.
Dr. Tolmach. It seems to me it is the same question.
The Chairman. I am quoting his language :
The board refused to grant me permission to submit these records.
Dr. Tolmach. We did not refuse him pe^-mission. We just refused
to make him another custodian. In other words, we did not instruct
him to produce the records.
The Chairman. But you told him not to produce them?
Dr. Tolmach. No; not that way, liecause he was not custodian of
the books.
The Chairman. Who is?
Dr. Tolmach. Miss Bryan.
The Chairman. Do you mean to tell this committee that Miss Bryan
can produce these books here without permission of this executive
board ?
Dr. Tolmach. Well, that question is evidently such a difficult ques-
tion that
The Chairman (interposing). Why is it difficult?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't know the full powers of an executive com-
mittee, and we thought it was such an important question that we
had to get an attorney to get the answer.
The Chairman. What were you advised about it ?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't think that my personal opinion is pertinent.
The Chairman. Can't you get some better word than "pertinent" ?
Dr. Tolmach. You are probably a better lawyer than I am.
88 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. We have heard that word "pertinent" all day. We
would like to have a little deviation from it.
Dr. ToLMACH. I think I can do better along the medical line than
the legal line.
The Chairman. So j^ou have left the matter to be decided, so far
as the board is concerned, by your counsel? Is that right?
Dr. ToLMACH. To date we have placed the matter before the counsel,
and we are awaiting his advice.
The Chairman. You are following his advice?
Dr. Tolmach. We are following his advice.
The Chairman. And that counsel is a man by the name of Wolf i
Dr. Tolmach. Benedict Wolf.
The Chairman. And he is employed b}' the executive board of the
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And represents that board?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that board emploj^ed him voluntarily? They
were not forced to employ him, and they could dispense with his
services any time they wanted to?
Dr. Tolmach. I presume so'.
The Chairman. Just like they could dispense with Miss Biyan's
services any time they want to?
Dr. Tolmach. I presume so.
The Chairman. Well, you know of no authority higher than the
board of directors, the executive committee, do you ? You don't know
of any higher authority in the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee
than the executive committee?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't know that I could give a full answer. The
j:)ractical answer would be I don't know, but I have heard terms like
"national convention," which I would not be very well able to describe
to you, therefore it may be what you say is correct. Maybe we are
the highest authority. I am not sure.
The Chairman. So far as you know, there is no higher authority?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't know.
The Chairman. Do you know of any higher authority ?
Dr. Tolmach. Well, perhaps there is a higher authority. I don't
know.
The Chairman. I ask you if you know of any.
Dr. Tolmach. Well, the word "national convention" impresses me,
sounds very much more of a larger body making decisions.
The Chairman. TV^io is the national convention?
Dr. Tolmach. Personally I would not be able to answer that. I
imagine that would mean a group of the membershi]) from all dilferent
parts of the country who would get together and make some important
decision. I think that probably would be a higher authority.
The Chairman. How did you get on this board ?
Dr. Tolmach. I volunteered my services.
The Chairman. And who accepted them ?
T)r. Tolmach. The executive board.
The Chairman. And that is the way you got your membership on
tlie board?
Dr. Tolmach. By the reception, you mean ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 89
The Chairman. By your voluntary agreement to serve, and they
accepted it.
Dr. ToLMACH. I giiess so.
The Chairman. And if they were to get to the point where they
didn't want your services any more, they could separate you from that
board ?
Dr.ToLMACH. I don't know the answer. I presume if they didn't
like me, didn't want me, or didn't think I was a decent person, they
wouldn't want me on the committee.
The Chairman. And they would get rid of you?
Dr. Tolmach. I imagine so.
The Chairman. And they have got that authority, haven't theyl
Dr. Tolmach. I think so.
The Chairman. As chairman of the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee of the Congress, in whose presence you have given this testi-
mony, I ask you now for your personal permission as a member of
the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee to
permit this committee of Congress to inspect the records of this organ-
ization that are called for in this subpena which was served on you.
Are you yourself, so far as your authority goes, willing that we should
have that privilege or not i
Dr. Tolmach. I don't believe I am in a position to give such an
answer. I am only an individual member of the committee, and to
arrive at such a decision I think that, first of all, it would require the
advice of counsel on the one hand, and further, it would require a
cooperative decision, and I am only a single individual in the com-
mittee.
The Chairman. Well, do you know whether you have got any ob-
jection to us seeing these books or not?
Dr. Tolmach, I don't think that my personal opinions are im-
portant in such a decision.
The Chairman. They are very important to us. We have asked for
them in writing and are asking for them now, for your personal
permission.
Dr. Tolmach. I don't believe I am in a position to give that per-
sonal permission, because I am only an individual.
Mr. Landis. You are one of the board members. You can give us
your word.
Dr. Tolmach. I cannot without meeting with the other members.
I would have to be at a meeting and discuss the matter fully, hear the
arguments pro and con, and at such a meeting, plus the advice of
counsel, I could come to a decision. I can't come to a decision here.
Mr, Landis. Do you think Helen Bryan ought to turn them over
without permission of the board ?
Dr. Tolmach. That would depend upon the same factors I have
mentioned.
Mr. MuNDT. You have told us that you made a decision early in
February over the telephone to keep Dr. Barsky from turning the
books over to the committee. You didn't have the benefit of counsel
on that telephone conversation. You had no chance for a cooperative
decision. Wliy can't you decide with equal vigor this afternoon on
this other question ?
90 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Dr. ToLMACH, I don't think the situation is analogous, because I
knew %Yhat the other opinions were, and I also knew that Dr. Barsky
was not the custodian of the books.
The Chairman. Whatever your reasons are — and I am not at all
concerned about them, not a particle — whatever they are, do you now
extend to this committee of Congress your personal permission, or do
you not, or do you refuse to answer the question ? Which one of the
three things ?
Dr. ToLMACH. What is the question ?
The Chairman. Are you willing or are you personally unwilling,
or do you refuse to answer, for whatever reasons you may have — I
don't care anything about your reasons?
Dr. ToLMACH. I am not refusing to answer the question. I can't
answer the question, sir. It is not within my power.
The Chairman. You mean it is not within your power to make up
your mind whether or not you are willing for us to see them ?
Dr. ToLMACH. They are not my books personally.
The Chairman. That is not the question. You have got a sixteenth
interest in the control, under your own testimony. Are you willing,
so far as your sixteenth goes, to let us see them ?
Dr. ToLMACH. I would have to have a joint discussion before I
could come to a conclusion.
The Chairman. And for that reason you would not answer either
way now ?
Dr. Tolmach. I think my previous answer is the answer, that I
would require a joint discussion at a regular committee meeting to
come to a decision.
The Chairman. When were you served with that subpena ?
Dr. Tolmach. Friday morning — Friday noon, I believe.
The Chairman. That will be 1 week tomorrow.
Mr. Landis. Did you attend the meeting of the lawyer with these
others on Monday or Tuesday ?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Landis. Where did they have the meeting ?
Dr. Tolmach. In the lawyer's office.
Mr. Landis. 160 Broadway?
Dr. Tolmach. 160 Broadway.
Mr. Landis. What day was that?
Dr. Tolmach. Things are happening so fast
Mr. Landis (interposing). Were all members of the board there ?
Dr. Tolmach. I don't know whether everybody was there.
Mr. Thomas. That is when you got that statement ; wasn't it ?
Dr. Tolmach. I think so.
The Chairman. There certainly was a majority of the board present
at that meeting ?
Dr. Tolmach. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. Mrs. Bobby Weinstein.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BOBBY K. WEINSTEIN, NEW YOEK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your full name and your address to the
reporter ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 91
Mrs. Weinstein. Mrs. Bobby K. Weinstein, 211 Central Park West.
Mr. Adamson. Are you engaged in any business or profession 'I
Mrs. Weinstein. No ; I am a housewife.
Mr. Adamson. You are the first one today. You are here today in
compliance with a subpena served upon you by this committee calling
for the production of certain books, papers, and records of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Connnittee. Is that correct ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Do you have the copy of your subpena ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No; I left it at home. Do you have to have it?
Mr. Adamson. Oh, no. It is not essential.
The Chairman. It is similar in appearance to the others?
Mrs. Weinstein. It is identical, I think, with these other pink ones.
Mr. Adamson. You might look at one of them there and see if it
says the same thing as the others.
Mrs. Weinstein (after examining a subpena). Yes; I Avill say this
is identical.
Mr. Adamson. All right ; you can mail it in.
Are you a member of the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Adamson. How long have you been a member ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I think about 3 years.
Mr. Adamson. Were you a member when the organization was first
initiated in 1942 ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No.
Mr. Adamson. You became a member, then, in 1943 ? Would that
be about right ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I think it was about 1943, maybe 1944. It was
1943 or '44.
Mr. .Adamson. Do you recall how you came to join the executive
board ? Who invited you ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I think it was Helen Bryan. I wouldn't want to
say that under oath, I am not sure.
Mr. Adamson. Well, you are acquainted with Miss Bryan ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. You had been acquainted with her for a period of
time before you became affiliated with the board ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Before I became a member ?
Mr. Adamson. Yes.
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes ; through the work.
Mr. Adamson. And your acquaintance with her is not solely
through the executive board ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, identified with them in any capacity, before you
came on the board ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No. I worked with the women's division in dif-
ferent things; theater parties and raising funds and so on.
Mr. Adamson. Were you affiliated prior to that time with any of
the previous Spanish relief organizations of which this was an out-
growth ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I don't think it is pertinent that I answer.
Mr. Adamson. Well, where did you get the word ''pertinent"?
92 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. We are getting awfiiUj^ tired of that word.
Mrs. Weinstein. I consiihed with my attorney when I received
the subpena. I am not accustomed to receiving subpenas, and he
told me
The Chairman (interposing). That anything you didn't want to
answer was not pertinent?
Mrs. Weinstein. No; anything that I thought was not pertinent.
The Chairman. Did he tell you anything you didn't want to answer
was not pertinent?
Mrs. Weinstein. No.
Mr. Adamson. Well, I see you have your statement- in your hand
there. I don't want to tire you holding it. Have you produced
here today the books, papers, and records of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee as called for in the subpena which was served
upon you?
The Chairman, You can just file yeur paper over there and we will
put it in the record.
(The paper referred to follows :)
Mr. Chairman, I have been served with a subpena requiring me to appear
and testify and to produce certain books, records, and correspondence of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee in my possession, custody, and control.
I, individually, do not have possession, custody, or control over any of the
material requested in the subpena which was served upon me. The books,
records, and correspondence of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee are
in the possession, custody, and control of Miss Helen R. Bryan, the executive
secretary of our organization, and she is the legal custodian of this material.
Since I do not have either in my possession, custody, or control the books,
records, and documents described in the subpena, I am unable to comply witH
your order to produce them.
Mr. Adamson, When was the subpena served on you? do you re-
member ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes ; Friday morning.
Mr. Adamson. Last week?
Mrs. Weinstein. Last week.
The Chairman. That will be 1 week tomorrow.
Mrs. Weinstein. Tomorrow will be a week.
Mr. Adamson. Your chairman, Dr. Barsky, has testified here before
the committee in words and substance that when he was served w^ith a
subpena some time ago, requiring the production of these books,
papers, and records for the committee, he called a meeting of the
executive board and laid the matter before them, and they voted
unanimously to instruct him not to produce the books, papers, and
records. Now, did you attend that meeting in person?
Mr. Weinstein. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. Did you participate in it over the telephone or by
proxy or in any way ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. You did not express you opinion or vote in any way
on the matter ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No, sir ; I did not. I was out of town. I didn't
vote. I am not absolutely certain, but I know I was out of town at
one time, and it may have been then.
Mr. Adamson. When is the last time you attended a meeting of the
executive board in person?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 93
Mrs. Weinstein. It ^Yas either at the end of January or the first day
or two in February, around that period. I don't remember the exact
date. It was after Miss Bryan had appeared down here.
Mr. Adamson. And they didn't vote on anj^thing at that meeting?
Mrs. Weixstein. No, sir. They gave a report on what happened.
Mr. Adamson. Well, they told you at that time that they had ap-
peared before the committee and she had refused to produce the books j
papers, and records?
Airs. Weinstein. Yes.
iVlr. Adamson. Did you know about her appearance before the com-
mittee before 3^ou attended that meeting?
Mrs. Weinstein. Did I know about her appearance at this com-
mittee ?
Mr. Adamson. Yes,
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
yiv. Adamson. Had there been a prior meeting to that one at which
it was taken up?
JSIrs. Weinstein. No, sir.
Mr. Adamson. How did you get your information?
Mrs. Weinstein. She told us at the meeting. You mean before?
Mr. Adamson. Yes.
Mrs. Weinstein. I had been at the office and was told about it.
Mr. Adamson. Are you willing today to give us your permission, as
far as you are concerned, to let the investigators of this committee of
Congress go up and inspect these books, papers, and records that we
have been talking about here all day?
Airs. AVeinstein. I don't think I could answer that because I w^ould
have to hear discussions by the board, and I haven't thought about it^
and I don't think I could answer it.
The Chairman. Let me ask you, This statement that you have
submitted to the committee, how long have jou had it?
Mrs. Weinstein. I think since Monday night.
The Chairman. And you obtained it in the office of Attorney
Wolf? -^
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes; I went down to see him.
The Chairjvian. And several of them w^ere there ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Practically all of the members were present?
Mrs. Weinstein. I think so. Most all of them were present.
Mr. Adamson. A majority anyway?
Mrs. Weinstein. Definitely.
The Chairman. Definitely a majority. And naturally, the matter
was discussed at the meeting?
Mrs. Weinstein. The matter?
The Chairman. The matter of obeying the subpena. That is what
you met for, wasn't it? You met on account of the fact that you
had all been served with a subpena?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
The Chairman. And your attorney prepared a statement and gave
each one of you a copy of it ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No ; I had consulted with him before.
The Chairman. But it was at that time that he gave it to you ?
8.^)148—46 7
94 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs, Weinstein. That is right.
The Chairman. And you received it from Attorney Wolf?
Mrs. Weinstein. Benedict Wolf.
The Chairman. Each of you, so far as you know ? You certainly
got yours from him ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I got mine.
The Chairman. And was a definite majority of the members of the
-executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Committee present at the
time when the formal, principal statement was prepared by your
attorney and given to you? Certainly there was some discussion of
the question of complying with the subpena, wasn't there ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I don't completely understand the question.
The Chairman. AVell, you have stated that a definite majority,
practically all of the members of the executive boai'd, were present?
Mrs. Weinstein. There were several, j'es.
The Chairman. You said definitely a majority.
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
The Chairman. And your attorney handed out to you copies of the
statement that you have produced here in answer to the question that
was asked you a while ago as to whether or not j^ou had produced
the books ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes,
The Chairman. That was handed out to you in that meeting?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
The Chairman. Now I will ask you if that meeting was held be-
-caiise you had been served with subpenas? That is why you were
down there ?
Mrs. Weinstein. That was not a meeting. I went down tliere, and
they walked in and out, you know.
The Chairman. But you said there was definitely a majority of
them there.
Mrs. Weinstein. At his office, but I didn't mean at one time.
People walked in and out.
The Chairman. How did you know there was a majority of them
there if you didn't see them ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Some were walking out and some were coming in.
The Chairman. How many were walking out and how" many walk-
ing in?
Mrs. Weinstein. I don't know.
The Chairman. And you mean to tell this committee that you didn't
discuss this question of the subpena then with other members of the
board?
Mrs. Weinstein. I don't think that is pertinent. May I ask my
lawyer ?
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question. This is certainly
pertinent, in spite of the fact that we have been awfully worried with
that term today. Don't you know that you went to the lawyer's office,
you and the other members of this board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Kef ugee Committee, for the purpose of discussing how you could com-
bat that subpena ? That was your business there ? Don't you know
that is true? You don't have any other reason for going except that,
did you ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No, I went down to discuss my subpena with him.
The Chairman. To devise ways and means, if you could, how you
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 95
could legally keep out of producing these books? That was the pur-
pose of it, wasn't it ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Well, yes.
The Chairman. And this board had given Miss Bryan instructions,
with your knowledge, to exercise every legal means that she could to
keep from producing these books ?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes. Would you repeat that?
The Chairman. Miss Bryan had been given instructions by the ex-
ecutive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, with your
knowledge, to use whatever legal means she could to keep from pro-
ducing those books for this committee of Congress, had she not?
Mrs. Weinstein. To this committee of Congress ? Well, to protect
the books within all the legal rights.
The Chairman. Every legal right she could use to protect them
from us, to keep us from seeing them ? You haven't anything else to
protect against, have you ?
Mrs. Weinstein. In the ultimate, that might be. I haven't
thought of it against anybody else.
l^he Chairman. There wasn't anybody else seeking them, was
there?
Mrs. Weinstein, No.
The Chaiijman. Nobody else was asking for them?
]\Irs. Weinstein. No.
The Ch.airman. So that was what the instructions were to Miss
Bryan, to use every legal means she could, to consult the lawyer
whom the board has employed, Mr. Wolf, and use wliatever legal
means she could to keep this committee of Congress from seeing these
books and records ?
Mrs.- Weinstein. She used every legal means that was possible to
protect the books of the organization.
The Chairman, From what?
Mrs. Weinstein. From what a lawyer might think was search and
seizure. •
The Chairman. To see them, in other words ?
Mrs. Weinstein. To protect the committee within all its legal
rights.
The Chairman. There was nobody else — now, Mrs. Weinstein,
there was nobody else seeking to see them except this committee of
Congress, was there ?
Mrs. Weinstein. No.
The Chairman. That is all.
Mr. ]\fuNDT. Mrs. Weinstein, when you held the meeting down in
Mr. Wolf's office
Mrs. Weinstein (interposing). I didn't say we held a meeting.
Mr. MuNDT, When you met
Mrs. Weinstein (interposing). I went down to see him.
Mr. MuNDT. When you were down to Mr. Wolf's office that evening
did you see Dr. Barsky ? Was he there ?
Mrs. Weinstein. I don't think that is pertinent.
Mr. MuNDT, It is a very pertinent question.
Mrs. Weinstein. I don't think it is pertinent to the issue. May I
ask my lawyer?
The Chairman. Well, irrespective of what your opinion is, you
know whether you saw him.
96 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. INIuNDT. Your lawyer won't know whether j^ou saw him or not.
Mrs. Weinstein. Mav I consult with him, because I don't think it
is pertinent.
Mr. Thomas. Will he know whether you saw him?
Mrs. Weinstein. No, but he can tell me wliether it is pertinent.
Mr. MuNDT. Whether it is pertinent to him or not, it is pertinent
to us. unless you want to be in contempt and not maintain your oath
to tell the whole truth and nothing; but the truth. There is nothing
3^our attorney can tell you as to whether you saw Dr. Barsky or not.
Mrs. Weinstein. But he can tell me whether it is pertinent for me
to answer.
Mr. MuNDT. It may not be from his standpoint, but it is from
ours.
]\Irs. Weinstein. May I consult him ?
jVlr. MuNDT. You may.
The Chairman. Find out what the truth about it is.
(The witness left the hearing room for a few minutes.)
Mrs. Weinstein. I am sorry. It was pertinent, and Dr. Barsky
was there.
Mr. MuNDT. Xow this question — you may want to consult j^our at-
torney on this one too — did you see Miss Helen Bryan at his office
that time?
Mrs. Weinstein. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all I have.
Mr. Landis. Did you ask your question, does she give consent for
us to see the records?
The Chairman. As chairman of the Committee on Un-American
Activities of Congress, Mrs. Weinstein, I now ask you for your per-
mission, as far as your authority is to give it, to this connnittee or
its representatives to see the'books and records of the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee. Are you willing for us to do that, so
far as you are concerned?
Mrs. Weinstein. I could not talk for the committee. I would not
want to answer unless I had consulted with the committee and at-
tended a meeting at which I could hear discussion on it.
The Chairman. You stated you were present at a meeting w^ith a
majority of them.
jNIrs. Weinstein. I could not answer because I don't know.
The Chairman. That's all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Adamson. I will call Miss Helen R. Bryan.
TESTIMONY OF MISS HELEN R. BRYAN, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY,
JOINT ANTI-EASCIST REFUGEE COMMITTEE, NEW YORK CITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Adamson. Will you give your name and address to the reporter,
Miss Bryan ?
Miss Bryan. Helen R. Bryan, 58 Bank Street, New York City.
Mr. Adamson. And what is your official connection with the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Miss Bryan. I am executive secretary.
Mr. Adamson. What is the office address ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 97
Miss Bryan. 192 Lexington Avenue.
Mr. Adamson. And you are employed there, are you?
Miss Bryan. Yes, I am executive secretary.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that a paid position ?
Miss Bryan. Yes, it is.
The Chairman. By whom are you employed?
Miss Bryan. By the executive board.
The Chairman. How long have you been so employed?
Miss Bryan. Three years ago this March, last March.
The Chairman. The executive board fixes your compensation ?
JNIiss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. And fixes your tenure of office ?
]\Iiss Bryan. They do.
The Chairman. They have authority to terminate it at will?
Miss Bryan. Well, I suppose I could be fired.
The Chairman. That is what I say.
Miss Bryan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And the authority that could fire you would be the
executive board ?
Miss Bryan. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have a written employment contract ?
Miss Bryan. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You are hired from month to month on a monthly
salary?
Miss Bryan. Yes,
The Chairman. When you first went to work for this committee
the executive board employed you ?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. And fixed your compensation ?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman, And did they fix a specified term for your employ-
ment or not ?
Miss Bryan, That I don't remember,
Mr. Landis. Were you hired by the year or the month ?
Miss Bryan, I am now hired by the year.
The Chairman. And that arrangement was made between you and
the executive board ?
Miss Bryan. That's right.
The Chairman. Do you know of any other authority over the ac-
tivities or policy making of the Joint Anti-Fascist Kefugee Com-
niittee except the executive board? I mean with reference to fixing
its policies and employing its employees, directing their activities ?
Miss Bryan. It is the executive board, yes.
Mr. Adamson. You are here today in compliance with a subpena
which was served upon the committee by this office?
Miss Bryan. That is correct.
Mr, Adamson. Have you got the pink copj' of your subpena with
you ?
Miss Bryan. I didn't know I had to bring it.
Mr. Adamson. You don't have to, but you can mail it in to us.
The Chairman. Have you got it with you ?
Miss Bryan. No.
98 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
INIr. Adamson. Look at one of these pink copies of subpenas here-
and tell us if that is the form an.d substance of the one which was served
upon you.
Miss Bryan (after examining a subpena). Yes, I think it is.
Mr. Adamson. And this subpena was adch-essed to the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee ? Is that correct ?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. And w\as served upon you because you are the execu-
tive secretary and in charge of the office?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
Mr. Adamson. Can you recall when the subpena was served?
INIiss Bryan. Yes, I think so. I think it was Friday morning, be-
tween 11 and 1 o'clock.
Mr. Adamson. Last Friday?
Miss Bryan. Last Friday morning.
The Chairman. That Avill be 1 week tomorrow ?
Miss Bryant. That is correct.
Mr. Adamson. Have you produced here today, in compliance with
the requirements of the subpena, the books, papers, and records of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Miss Bryan. I am the executive secretary
Mr. Adamson (interposing). Now wait just a minute, Miss Bryan.
Will you say "yes" or "no," and then we will take up your statement?
Miss Bryan. No, I would prefer to read my statement. It is very
short, ]Mr. Adamson.
Mr. Adamson. I don't know that there would be any objection to
letting you make the statement.
The Chairman. First state whether you have got the books.
Miss Bryan. I prefer this other way.
The Chairman. But we prefer it that way, and the question has been
asked you if you have got them.
Miss Bryan. But I think I am entitled to read this. It is very short.
The Chairman. Do you now comply with that subpena? If you
say you don't know, then whatever explanation you have got there, you
can give it.
JSIiss Bryan. I prefer to read this statement. It is very brief.
The Chairman. After all, you see, you are the witness. You have
been asked a question. 'What is your answer to it? If you want to
read your statement, we are willing for you to do it after you answer
the question.
Miss Bryan. Well, as executive secretary of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, as custodian of the books and records, I was ad-
vised by my executive board to find out what steps I should take,
within my legal rights, to protect the books and records and corre-
spondence of this organization.
The Chairman. From whom?
Miss Bryan. I was advised to consult with counsel.
The Chairman. You were advised to protect them from what?
Miss Bryan. To protect them from aii}^ kind of investigation which
would interfere with the relief we are carrying on.
The Chairman. Particularly this committee of Congress?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. When did you get that instruction?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 99
Miss Bryan. Well, Mr. Wood, I don't remember the exact time.
The Chairman. Has it been since you were served with the sub-
pena ?
Miss Bryan, Oh, no.
The Chairman. You were served with this before?
Miss Bryan. That is right.
Mr. Landis. After you were served with the other subpena?
Miss Bryan. That's right.
The Chairman. After you were served the first time ?
Miss Bryan. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Before or after your appearance before this committee ?
The Chairman. Just a moment — then you conferred with an at^
torney by the name of Wolf ?
Miss Bryan. I conferred with counsel.
The Chairman. Just name him.
Miss Bryan. INlr. Benedict Wolf.
The Chairman. Will you identify him? Mr. Benedict Wolf is
counsel for the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist Kefugee
Committee ?
Miss Bryan. Mr. Benedict Wolf is the counsel for the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee.
The Chairman. He is employed by the executive board and paid, by
the executive board?
Miss Bryan. That I cannot tell you.
The Chairman. You have not paid him?
Miss Bryan. I have not ; no.
The Chairman. And you conferred with him because you were told
that he was the counsel for the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee ?
Miss Bryan. No ; you see, my subpena came first.
The Chairman. I understand, but you knew he was the counsel for
the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee? You stated that.
Miss Bryan. I was subpenaed as the executive secretary of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee.
The Chairman. But you say you were subpenaed and that the board
had a meeting and directed you to take all legal steps, consult counsel
and take all legal steps to protect the books, records, and papers. You
are complying with that subpena.
Miss Bryan. No ; I didn't say that.
The Chairman. You said protect you against investigation, and
you had no other
Miss Bryan (interposing). No; protect the books and records o£
our organization.
The Chairman. From investigation?
Miss Bryan. No; I said — you asked me what I was protecting from,,
and I said that the board had advised me to consult with counsel to
see what steps could be taken within my legal rights to protect the
books and records of our organization.
The Chairman. From investigating committees?
Miss Bryan. No.
The Chairman. What I want to know is. Protect them from what?
Miss Bryan. I am telling you what mj^ board told me.
The Chairman. What did you want to protect them from?
Miss Bryan. That is what the board said.
100 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Chairman. Now, the board told you that after yon had been
served with a subpena to prodnce those books before this conniiittee
•of Congress ; didn't it ?
]\Iiss Bryan, I would have to ask about that, because I am not sure.
Mr. Landis. That was after you were subpenaed here before?
Miss Bryan. It was before I was subpenaed; yes.
INIr. Landis. I mean the last time. It was after your first subpena,
wasn't it?
Miss Bryan. That is what I don't actually remember.
The Chairman. Why did you remember it a while ago when jou
said it was ?
Miss Bryan. No; what I don't remember, Mr. Wood — you don't
understand — is whether I consulted with counsel before I received the
subpena or immediately afterward.
The Chairman. Well, Miss Bryan, didn't you testify in answer to
my question that after you got your first subpena here your board
gave you that instruction, and that you then went and talked to coun-
sel ? Isn't that what you testified ?
Miss Bryan. You see, I am a little confused about the exact date
of when I received the first subpena.
The Chairman. But I am asking you now if that isn't what you said
a while ago.
Miss Bryan. Would you ask that again ?
The Chairman. Didn't you testify that after you got the first
subpena your board then told you to consult with your counsel and
to use all legal means?
Miss Bryan. I would like to consult counsel on that.
The Cpiairman. Why?
Miss Bryan. Because I would like to just get the dates straight.
I don't want to say something that is not true.
The Chairman. Would you be willing to swear to what he says?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. You would ? You mean you would come back in
here and give your oath that the date he gives you is correct ? Is that
what you mean to tell the committee?
Miss Bryan. I think he would liave it in his records. I don't have
any records with me.
The Chairman. And you would come back in here and swear on
bis records or on his statement when it was? Is that right?
Miss Bryan. Yes. I am sure he would have it in his records, Mr.
Wood.
The Chairman. I am not asking you that. Are you willing then
to come back in here and sa^^ that what he tells you is the truth?
Miss Bryan. If he finds it in his records.
The Chairman. That that is the truth ?
Miss Bryan, Yes.
The Chairman. Then the committee would not be very much inter-
ested in that sort of testimony.
Was there anybody else seeking these books and records at the time
you conferred with him the first time ?
Miss Bryan. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Then you understood, of course, that the instruc-
tions you kad had reference to our efforts to get these books and
records ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 101
Miss Bryan. I understood that.
The Chairman. And you went and consuhed ISIr. Wolf?
Miss Bryan. Correct.
The Chairman. Then we will get back again to my question. Mr.
Wolf is eni})loyed not by you but by the executive board of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee? That is right; isn't it?
Miss Bryan. That I don't know.
The Chairman. Hie is not employed by you?
Miss Bryan. Xo; I am sure of that.
The Chairman. Why did you consult him ?
JNIiss Bryan. He, was — we were advised that he was a competent
lawyer.
The Chairman. The lawyer for the Joint Anti-Fascist Kefugee
Committee ?
Miss Bryan. That I didn't know.
The Chairman. That was the information you had?
Miss Bryan. No.
The Chairman. That is just what you just this minute said.
Miss Bryan. I didn't say he was employed by the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee.
The Chairman. You said just now that you understood he w^as their
lawyer.
Miss Bryan. No; I did not say that, Mr. Wood. I said I was
advised to consult with him.
The Chairman. And you were advised that by the board, the
executive board?
Miss Bryan. No.
The Chairman. Whom were you advised by?
Miss Bryan. One or two members of the executive board.
The Chairman. By the members of the executive board?
Miss Bryan. One or two members.
Mr. Mundt. Was Dr. Barsky one of those members?
Miss Bryan. Yes; he was.
The Chairman. And following that advice you went and con-
ferred with Mr. Wolf ?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. And you are now carrying out Mr. Wolf's
instructions?
Miss Bryan. No ; I am not, Mr. Wood.
The Chairman. Whose instructions are you carrying out?
Miss Bryan. Mr. Wood, Mr. Wolf explained to me
The Chairman (interposing). I am not asking about his explana-
tion. I am asking at whose direction now are you coming down here
without these books and records?
Miss Bryan. My own.
The Chairman. Your own ? You are taking full responsibility ?
Miss Bryan. I am.
The Chairman. And why did you go to consult him, then?
Miss Bryan. Because I wanted to know what my legal rights were
in such a case.
The Chairman. After you consulted with him and he told you what,
in his opinion, your legal rights were, you made up your mind?
Miss Bryan. No.
The Chairman. When did you make up your mind?
102 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Miss Bryan. He advised with me and pointed out to me
The Chairman (interposing). I just asked you when you made up
your mind not to bring them?
Miss Bryan. Before the last appearance.
The Chairman. And that was after you conferred with him I
Miss Bryan. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. If the executive board of the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee should direct you by majority of that board to
make those books, records, and papers available to this committee of
Congress, would you do it or wouldn't you ?
Miss Bryan. I don't know, Mr. Wood.
The Chairman. You don't know?
Miss Bryan. No.
The Chairman. Well, don't you know whether you would or
whether you would get out as executive secretary ?
Miss Bryan. I don't know.
The Chairman. So you mean now to tell this committee that you
are acting arbitrarily, on your own initiative, and that the board could
not control your action at all?
Miss Bryan. No ; I didn't say that.
The Chairman. Can the board do it?
Miss Bryan. Can the board control me ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Miss Bryan. I said earlier that
The Chairman (interposing). Now, let us get along. Can the
board control your actions?
Miss Bryan. Certainly.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel that you have the support of the board
in the decision which you say you are making on your own behalf not
to give these records and books to the committee?
Miss Bryan. I don't think that is a pertinent question.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't think it is pertinent to know whether the
board is supporting your position or not?
Miss Bryan. I don't think it is pertinent for me to answer that
question.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know ?
Miss Bryan. I don't think that is a pertinent question ?
Mr. Mundt. You decline to answer?
Miss Bryan. I don't think it is pertinent.
The Chairman. The question is whatever you think about it. Do
you want to answer it or not ? You have two alternatives. Yf)U can
answer "Yes" or "No" or you can say you decline to answer it. Which
do you do?
Miss Bryan. "Wliat was the question again ?
The Chairman. Whether or not the board is supporting you in
your action not to give us the books and records.
Miss Bryan. I don't think that is a pertinent question.
The Chairman. Do you decline to answer it for that reason ?
Miss Bryan. I say I don't think it is a pertinent question.
The Chairman. I understand you said that half a dozen times.
But I want to know whether you decline to answer it.
Miss Bryan. Well, I just say that I don't think it is a pertinent
question.
The Chairman. You have already said that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES lOS
Miss Bryan. That is all I say.
Mr. Landis. You don't say ''Yes" or "No," then? You decline to-
answer ?
The Chairman. You have the right to decline if you want to.
Miss Bryan. I Avould rather leave it at that.
The Chairman. Then you will not answer it? Is that right?
Miss Bryan. I have answered in saying I don't think it is a perti-
nent question.
The Chairman. I understand that, but that doesn't answer the
question.
Miss Bryan. This gentleman says that it does.
The Chairman. I don't care what the gentleman says. It is not
an answer, and you know it is not an answer.
Miss Bryan. I think it is an answer.
The Chairman. And you want to leave it that way ?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you going to leave it that way ?
Miss Bryan. Yes.
The Chairman. That is fair enough. That is an answer.
Mr. Rankin. You decline to produce these books?
Miss Bryan. After considting with counsel I came to the conclusion
that the subpena was not valid and therefore, although I am very
glad to testify about any part of the relief activities of our organiza-
tion, I cannot comply with your request for the production of the
books and records.
The Chairman. And you haven't got them here, have you?
Miss Bryan. I said, Mr. Wood, I could not comply with your re-
quest.
The Chairman. I undei'stand that, but you haven't got the books
here available to this committee, have you?
Miss Bryan. No.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to consult with the com-
mittee just a minute. Let the witness step into the next room.
(The .witness withdrew from tlie committee room.)
Spanish Refugee Appeal of the
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee CoMMnTBK,
New York 16, N. Y., April 6, 1946.
Congressmen John S. Wood,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
Dear Congressman Wood : Enclosed is a copy of my statement which you stated
you would accept for the record.
Inasnnich as you closed the hearing while I was out of the room, I was deprived
of the opportunity of leaving my statement with you. I am sending it to you
now with the understanding that it will be made part of the record.
Sincerely yours,
Helen R. Bryan,
Execitti/ve Secretary.
Statement or Helen R. Bryan for the House Committee on Un-American
Activities on Thurday, April 4, 1946
Mr. Chairman, I am here in resiwnse to a subpena addressed to the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Conunittee, and served upon me, requiring the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Conunittee to produce "all books, ledgers, records, and papers
relating to the receipt and disbursement of money by or on account of the Joint
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee or any subsidiary or subcommittee thereof, to-
gether with all correspondence and memoranda of communications by any means
104 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
whatsoever with persons hi foreign countries," for the period from January 5,
1£M5, up to and including March 20, 1946.
I am the executive secretary of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee, and
the custodian of its books, records, and correspondence. As sucli, my organiza-
tion left with me the responsibility o^ determining, after consultation with counsel,
what action to take, within the limits of niy legal rights, to protect its records
from unlawful search and seizure. After consulting counsel, I have concluded
that the subpena served upon me is invalid on grounds which I shall state, and
for tliat reason, although I am willing to testify about the activities of my organ-
ization, I am not complying with your demand for our books, records, and
correspondence.
I am informed by counsel that the subpena is invalid for the following reasons :
1. The subpena is so broad and indefinite that it constitutes a search and
seizure. It is a forced inquiry into matters irrelevant for any legislative pur-
pose. It requests all books and records showing receipts and disbursements of all
money by or on account of the organization and all correspondence and memo-
randa of communications with persons in foreign countries, for a period of 15
months.
You have made no attempt at differentiating within this mass of material,
although it must be clear that all of it could not possibly be pertinent to any
inquiry you are legally entitled to make. How much rent we pay ; what salaries
our clerical staff members get, may be of proper concern to the President's War
Relief Control Board, and this information is available to that Board, but it
cannot be of concern to a congressional committee whose jurisdiction is limited
to an Investigation of subversive and un-American propaganda activities within
the United States. Nor could the names and addresses of our contributors be
of any proper concern of yours, for the names of our contributors, who all reside
within the United States, do not determine or affect our activities. I could give
many similar examples of nonpertinent material.
2. In addition, there has been no foundation laid for your demand for our
books, records, or communications. The coiirts have held that a congressional
committee is not permitted to make a "general, roving, offensive, inquisitorial,
compulsory investigation" into private affairs. Before you can legally issue the
type of subpena you have served upon me, you are required to have some evi-
dence to indicate that our organization's activities come within the area you are
authorized by Congress to investigate. The Supreme Court of the United States
has said. "It is contrary to the first principles of justice to allow a search through
all the (organization's) records, relevant or irrelevant in the hope that some-
thing will turn up," and that "The analogies of the law do not allow the party
wanting evidence to call for all documents in order to see if they do not contain it.
Some ground must be shown for supposing that the documents called for do
contain it."
I have gone over the statements made by the members of your committee, as
set forth in the Congressional Record, with regard to the motion to cite Dr.
Barsky for contempt. There is nothing in any of the alleged facts you have
set forth to indicate in the slightest degree that the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee
Committee has engaged in any subversive of un-American propaganda activities
within the United States, or for that matter outside of the United States. There
can be no such evidence, since we are a relief organization, and engaged in no
propaganda activities.
According to a United Press rejiort of November 1 or 2, 1945, your committee
has itself indicated, at least where certain organizations were involved, that
you would disregard requests for investigation unless accompanied by docu-
mentary evidence. According to this press report, when you were asked by the
American Veterans Committee to conduct an investigation of seven veterans
organizations described by Congressman Riemiller as "native Fascist organiza-
tions," a spokesman for your committee admitted that you were making no
investigation of these organizations, and asserted that you give "fair considera-
tion" to requests for investigations only when they are accompanied by "docu-
mentary evidence." Yet you are trying to apply a different rule to our organiza-
tion, the .Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee.
I am advised by counsel that, because there is no evidence indicating that our
activities come within the investigative jurisdiction which has been granted to
you by Congress, your subpena asking for all books, etc., is nothing more than a
"fishing expedition" and therefore invalid.
3. There is serious doubt as to the constitutionality of the rule creating your
committee, because some of the limiting phrases of the rule, "un-American propa-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 105
gaiida activities" and "subversive and uii-Auierican propaganda" are so impos-
sible of definition, so lacliing in coiiereteness, tbat your area of investigation
becomes vague and indefinite to the point where your inquiry cannot be in aid
of valid congressional exercise of a proper legislative function.
4. Your subpena is so broad that compliance with it will prevent our organiza-
tion from functioning. To bring to Wasliington all of the books, records, etc.,
from January 5, 1945, to March 29, 194G, means that for the lengtli of time that
you, at your pleasure, decide to keep these books and records in Washington, we
might as well close our offices. We could not carry on our activities under such
circumstances, and you would be putting an end to our work, preventing us from
fulfilling our relief commitment, and causing great distress and suffering to the
Spanish Republican refugees. For this additional reason, I am advised by coun-
sel, your subpena is invalid.
5. Among our records are the names of persons, recipients of relief funds,
members of whose families still live in Franco Spain. To make the names of
these relief recipients public would be put in jeopardy the lives of those mem-
bers of their families who are at the mercy of the Franco dictatorship. How can
our organization, created to provide relief for Spanish Republican refugees and
their families, to alleviate the suffering of starving and homeless persons, in
good conscience endanger the lives of people by turning names over to your com-
mittee, which has already shown its bias and h<.)Stility toward us by the efforts
of your counsel to get our license I'evoked by the President's War Relief Control
Board more than a week before your conunittee had made any detennination
whether it was interested in our activities?
As I have stated before, although I am not turning over to you the books,
i-ecords, iind correspondence you have demanded for the reasons I have set
forth, I am i>erfectly wnlling to testify about the activities of the Joint Anti-
Faseist Refugee Committee. It has no secrets. It does not try to hide its
activities. Every 3 months it submits to the President's War Relief Control
Board, under which it is licensed, a statement of receipts and disbursements,
showing, among other things, in which countries our relief moneys are exi>ended,
moneys which are exper.ded, incidentallj', not by us, but by othei- organizations
such as the Unitarian Service Committee. We have informed the President's
War Relief Control Board that it is free to make as thorough an investigation
of our records as it chooses.
I am prepared now to tell you, in as much detail as you desire, of the work
we do in the various countries to relieve the distress and suffering of the Spanish
Republican refugees. I make this offer, although I believe your subpena is
invalid, because we are proud of the work we are doing and are willing to
use any forum to describe this work. I am also prepared to submit to you a
written statement fully describing our activities.
Helen R. Bryan.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I move that we cite all of the witnesses
who have appeared before us today as being in contempt of Congress,
and that we take steps to bring this to the floor of the House next week.
Mr. Landis. I second the motion.
The Chairman. All those in favor of the motion will say "aye";
opposed "no."
(The motion was put and carried.)
(Whereupon, at 5 :10 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
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