/ 7 f-
HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
««
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(OBSCENE AND PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIALS)
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 62
INVESTIGATION OF JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
IN THE UNITED STATES
MAY 24, 26, 31, JUNE 9 AND 18, 1955
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY
DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
SEP 12 1955
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(OBSCENE AND PORNOGRAPHIC MATERIALS)
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FOUKTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 62
INVESTIGATION OP JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
IN THE UNITED STATES
MAY 24, 26, 31, JUNE 9 AND 18, 1955
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
65263 WASHINGTON : 1955
COMMITTEE ON
HARLEY M. KILGORE,
JAMBS O. EASTLAND, Mississippi
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee
OLIN D. JOHNSTON, South Carolina
THOMAS C. HENNINGS, JR., Missouri
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
PRICE DANIEL, Texas
JOSEPH C. O'MAHONEY, Wyoming
THE JUDICIARY
West Virginia, Chairman
ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
WILLIAM LANGER, Nortli Dakota
WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois
HERMAN WELKER, Idaho
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland
Subcommittee To Investigate Ju\'enile Delinquency in the United States
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman
THOMAS C. HENNINGS, Jr., Missouri WILLIAM LANGER. North Dakota
PRICE DANIEL, Texas ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
James H. Bobo, General Counsel
n
374
CONTENTS
statement of — p
Burgum, Leslie R., attorney general, State of North Dakota. Bis-
marck, N. Dak _ _ OQQ
Egan, Father Daniel, Franciscan priest, Gr'aymoor," Garrison "n Y" " ' 70
Karpman, Dr. Benjamin, chief psychotherapist, St. Elizabeths
Hospital, Washington, D. C__ _ ______ ______ «n
Thomas, Norman, New York, N. Y 01-7
Testimony of— " ----- zi/
Alberts David S., accompanied by counsel, Stanley Fleishman. Los
Angeles, Calif _' 007
Alberts, Mrs. Violet Evelyn Stanard, Los" AngelesVCalif ~ " " ~ 39O
Bair, Robert R., assistant United States attornev, district of Mary-
land ~ _ -^ ...
Barnes, Phillip I., police officer, administrativevicesquad" porno-
graphic detail, Los Angeles Police Department, Los Angeles, Calif
tilick Inspector Roy, head of vice squad, Police Department, Wash-
ington, D. C _ _ _ ' JQ3 272
^^M-\ ^*^^Seant Joseph E., Detroit Police Department," "Detroit, '
Butler, Lieutenant George, Dallas Police be"p"ar"tme"nt,"f)a"ira"s""fex"
investigator for the Subcommittee .._ _ _ "' 255
Caidin, Stanley R., attorney at law, Beverly Hills," Cali"f !"_"__ I 339
Cavanaugh, Eugene O., chief, youth squad. New York" Cit"y "Board
of Education, New York, N. Y 93
Chumbris, Peter N., associate counsel, "Unite"d States Senate "s"ubcom-
committee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency __ 46
Deerson, William, dean of discipline, Haaren High s"chool, N"e"w
_lork, N. Y ' _ 7g
_ Fishman, Irving, Deputy Collector of Customs, "New" Y"o"r~k."N"Y 249
Fodor, George, St. Petersburg, Fla I54
Gillman, Morris, New York, N. Y _ __ _ 945
Grimm, Clarence, Coral Gables, Fla __"___ ] 223
Henry, Dr. George W., professor of chnical" psychiatry," CornelftTnil
versify, college of medicine, Ithaca, N. Y___L 210
Klaw, Irving, accompanied by counsel, Coleman Gangel," New York",
_' 229
Maletta, Eugene, accompanied by counsel, Leon D. Lazer, Richmond
Hill, N. Y 175
Miller, William J., Hollywood, Calif _""""! _ ~_~ 397
Mishldn, Eddie, accompanied by counsel, Daniel Weiss, " Yonkers^
_ 158 239
Nelson, James F., deputy district attorney," "Los" Angeles "c"o"u"n"tv '
Calif •" 4J3
O'Brien, William C, Assistant Solicitor, Post" Office Department,
accompanied by Harry J. Simon, inspector, Post Office Department,
Washington, D. C 283 306
Roth, Samuel, New York, N. Y "-"_I___L__I "~II__ ' 187
Rotto, Abe, accompanied by counsel, H. Robert Levine, Bro'o'klyn,
N. Y_
172
Rubin Abraham, accompanied by counsel, Daniel Weiss, Brooklyn,
N. Y 149 243 260
Sheehan, Lt. Ignatius, morals squad, Chicago Police Department,
Chicago, 111 __ _ 124
ni
IV CONTENTS
Testimony of — Continued ^"s®
Shomer, Louis, accompanied by counsel, Jacob Rachstein, Brooklyn,
N. y1 "- 178,265
Sobel, Arthur Herman, accompanied bv counsel, Morris D. Hohrar,
New York, N. Y 161
Stapenhorst, Ralph E., postal inspector, Glendale, Calif 355
Sullivan, Lt. Walter J., investigator for the District Attorney, Los
Angeles County, Calif 392
Tager, Mary Dorothy, Balboa, Calif 315
Thoms, Mr. and Mrs. Robert, Rutherford, N. J 96
Whipple, Lawrence A., director of public safety, Jersey City, N. J.,
accompanied by Sgt. Alfred Jago and Detective John Higgins,
Jersey City Police Department, Jersey City, N. J 114
EXHIBITS
Number and summary ofexhihit
1. Copy of Perspectives On Delinquency Prevention, a report by Henry
Epstein, deputy mayor to Robert F. Wagner, mayor of the city of
New York ^ 2
2. Copies of Senate Resolution 89, 83d Congress, 1st session; Senate
Resolution 190, 83d Congress, 2d session; Senate Resolution 62,
84th Congress, 1st session; and resolutions dated May 20, 1955, au-
thorizing Senator Estes Kefauver to hold hearings ^ 44
3. Copies of Federal Statutes Nos. 1461, 1462, 1463, and 1464 2 45
4. Summary of State laws pertaining to obscene and pornographic ma-
terials ^ 49
5. Copy of the subcommittee letter sent to various police officials through-
out the country ^ S3
6. Copy of letter dated February 3, 1953, from Louis Stevens Saxton
addressed to Clarence Meade Barnes, and related material ^ 62
7. Copy of subpena dated May 19, 1955, addressed to Irving Klaw _ 2 §9
8. Copy of a doctor's certificate concerned with the health of Louis
Finkelstein - ^ ^1
9 Information of Eugene Cavanagh outlining the activities of the youth
squad from April 1, 1954, to March 31, 1955 ' 94
10. Copy of an admission ticket to Colossal Good Time Night, March 29,
1953 1 105
11. Copy of a receipt from Anderson Film Rental Service, Elgin, 111 ^ ]_30
12. Copy of the police record of Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin, from the
Detroit Police Department, Detroit, Mich ^ 135
13. Copy of income tax and bank statement information, 1950 through
1954, of Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin ^ 152
14. Copy of the stenographer's minutes of the case United States of
America v. Harold Kantor, heard in the United States District
Court, Southern District of New York ^ 164
15. Stock Theft "Fence" Given Prison Term, article appearing in the
October 26, 1937 issue of the New Haven Evening Register, New
Haven, Conn ^ 467
16. List of pornographic material found in the possession of Abe Rotto on
July 29, 1954 ^ 173
17. Copy" of an advertisement of the Atine Co., New York City, received
by a juvenile 1°^
18. Advertisement and letter of transmittal concerned with obscene litera-
ture received through the mails ^ 191
19. Additional advertisements and letters of transmittal concerned with
obscene literature received through the mails by several individuals. - ^ 193
20. Newspaper clippings from several Florida papers ^ 228
21. Copy of the 97th edition of Cartoon and Model Parade, published by
Irving Klaw ] 233
22. Photographs submitted by Irving Fishman ^54
CONTENTS V
Page
23. Samples of pornography submitted by Lieutenant Butler ^259
24. Road map of the Northeastern United States with numerous cities
circled alleged to have been taken from the possession of Abraham
Rubin, alias AI Stone, by the Detroit Police Department * 263
25. Name and address book belonging to Abraham Rubin, alias Al Stone__ ^265
26. Copy of a subpena dated May 19, 1955, addressed to Aaron Moses
Shapiro ^207
27. Copy of a subpena dated May 19. 1955, addressed to Joseph Piccarellie~_ ^ 268
28. Photograph of pornographic materials ^282
29. List of film titles in the possession of Simon Simring ^282
30. Three photos of indecent acts by children 4, 6, and 10 years old ^ 283
31. Letter dated June 8, 1955, from Congressman John A. Blatnik of
Minnesota, addressed to Mr. Peter Chumbris, associate counsel,
United States Senate Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delin-
quency ^291
32. Copy of House bill No. 825, 34th North Dakota Legislative Assembly,
prohibiting the sale, distribution, or exhibition of lewd and obscene
matter to persons under 21 years of age ^ 301
33. Samples of literature sent to customers by Mrs. Dorothy Tager ^324
34. Copy of a check in the amount of $1,329.95 made payable to Stanley
Caiden, from Mrs. Louis Tager's account at the California Bank,
Los Angeles, Calif ^342
35. Reporter's transcript of partial proceedings in the case of United
States V. Roy J. Ross of the United States District Court, Southern
District of California, March 23, 1954 ^S5^
36. Copy of an advertisement from Male Merchandise Mart, Hollywood
Calif 1368
37. Copy of an accompanying folder to the advertisement from Male
Merchandise Mart, Hollywood, Calif ^368
38. Copy of advertisement received by the subcommittee from Male
Merchandise Mart, Hollywood, Calif ^369
39. Clean-Up-The-Mails Campaign, article appearing in the March 17,
1955, issue of the Postal Bulletin, United States Post Office Depart-
ment -373
photography ^381
photography
41. Copy of a subpena dated June 10, 1955, addressed to David S. Alberts_~_ =* 389
42. Copy of the police record of William Miller =408
' On file with the subcommittee.
' Printed in the record.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(Obscene and Pornographic Materials)
TUESDAY, MAY 24, 1955
United States Senate,
subcommiitee of the committee on the judiciary
To Invesitgate Juvenile Delinquency,
New York, N. Y.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a. m., in room 104,
"United States Court House, Foley Square, New York City, N. Y.,
Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman, presiding.
Present : Senator Estes Kefauver, Senator William Langer.
Also present : James H. Bobo, general counsel ; Peter N. Chumbris,
associate counsel; Vincent Gaughan, special counsel; Edward Lee
McLean, editorial director; George Martin and George Butler, con-
sultants to the subcommittee.
(yhairman Kefauver. Tlie subcommittee will come to order.
This is a subcommittee of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary,
established by order of the Senate. The members of the subcommittee
are the distinguished Senator from North Dakota, Senator Langer,
who is with us today, and who has taken a great deal of interest in
the work of the subcommittee, and was former chairman of the full
Committee on the Judiciary; Senator Wiley, of Wisconsin; and
Senator Hennings, of Missouri.
The subcommittee wishes to first express its appreciation to Mr.
Mike Lordan, superintendent of the building, and the others who have
been so cooperative in arranging for this courtroom; Judge Hart and
members of the court.
\ye are glad to again be in the great city of New York. The problem
of juvenile delinquency which brings us here at this time deserves
and requires the best attention and the best effort of every American
citizen. The future of this country is irrevocably tied with our
young people. If this is a great generation we are rearing, and I
am firmly convinced it is, then the future of our democracy is secure.
Yet we must face up to the problems besetting our young people.
These 3 days of hearings will be devoted to pornographic material,
a specialized subject within the general field of juvenile delinquency.
This is a nationwide hearing. Later our subcommittee will return
to New York to hold additional hearings on the broad aspects of
juvenile delinquency ; but at this time I do want to commend the many
fine efforts being made to remedy the problems of juvenile delinquency
here in the Nation's largest city by public officials, churches, schools,
and individuals.
I have been particularly impressed by the report of Deputy Mayor
Henry Epstein concerning all phases of juvenile delinquency here and
2 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
his recommendations designed to correct the problems inherent in
juvenile delinquency.
Now I want to order Mr. Epstein's report to be printed in the
record at this time.
(The report above referred to, entitled "Perspectives on Delinquency
Prevention,'' was marked "Exhibit No. 1," and is as follows :)
Exhibit No. 1
Perspectives on Delinquency Prevention
(City of New York, 1955. Robert F. Wagner, mayor)
"* « * If if.(, iffould guide hy the liglit of reason, we must let our
minds be bold." — Louis D. Bkandeis.
CiTT OP New York,
Office op the Mayor,
New York, N. Y., May 6, 1955.
Hon. Robert F. Wagner,
Mayor, City of Neto York,
City Hall, New York, N. Y.
Dear Mayor Wagner : Attached is a brief report on tbe coordination of new
and improved programs to cope with the problem of juvenile delinquency in our
city.
It has only been possible to undertake a relatively brief study in this field to
which so many have devoted a lifetime. I am, however, making a number of
suggestions in specific areas and have indicated particular problems which merit
special consideration in the near future. I hope, for example, to treat the whole
matter of the courts and correctional institutions at some length in another report.
The only expenditures to date from the $25,000 budgeted for this study have
been 4% months' salary for my consultant and his secretary, plus less than $100
for technical literature, supplies, etc. After our pi-inter's bill is paid, I believe
enough money will remain to complete the report mentioned above as well as
one on services for infants and preschool children.
John J. Horwitz, who served as consultant on this project, was responsible
for most of the research and field contacts. He also is to be commended for
writing the draft of this report, laying it out and seeing it through the press. I
wish to pay particular tribute to the rich background Mr. Horwitz brought to
the planning of this project. His broad social science skills and his rich experi-
ence as settlement house director, psychiatric caseworker, and community or-
ganization specialist all contributed materially to the coherent overview so essen-
tial in a study of this sort.
I feel deeply indebted to former deputy city administrator .John V. Connorton
for his invaluable assistance in coordinating the committee consultations with
private social agencies.
Dr. Luther Gulick, the city administrator, offered my staff office space and
all conceivable cooperation. His friendly interest advanced the work materially.
E.special thanks are dvie my colleagues heading up various city departments
and agencies, welfare and civic leaders, and the many experts on various aspects
of the delinquency problem who have given me and my staff the benefit of their
counsel. Many helpful suggestions have also been received from scores of private
citizens who have passed along to us their suggestions as to the causes of juvenile
delinquency or measures which might be undertaken to cope with our problem.
The cooperative zeal so many people have brought to this effort has been a gratify-
ing sign of the vitality of civic spirit in our city. The fine resolution of Council
President Abe Stark, for example, is supported in the expanded youth board
projects of private agencies. I might add that the tenor of a number of letters
received from young people themselves has been a great source of encouragement.
May I emphasize in recommending the programs listed below that none are
intended to substitute for ongoing operations in the same fields, nor should serv-
ices be taken out of one neighborhood to provide for another.
Very sincerely yours,
Henry Epstein, Deputy Mayor.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
INTRODUCTION
At the request of the mayor, I have during the past 8 months made a fairly-
extensive review of the scientific literature in the juvenile delinquency field,
and have endeavored to inform myself on current developments of interest in
other communities, and even in foreign countries.
Herewith are presented certain findings of fact as to the nature of the chal-
lenge and programs which we may undertake in order to meet it. This report
is designed to help speed planning, and to inform the public about some of the
problems we face. In addition, in appendix V, I have listed some important
ways each and every citizen can help tight juvenile delinquency.
We can record many real achievements through services to children. But
New York is a city which never has been afraid to face up to its shortcoriiings.
I have not endeavored to produce a piece of promotion material ; attention in this
report is focused upon many areas where our performance is less than perfect,
sometimes less than adequate.
We cannot feel satisfied with less than the best, especially where our children
are concerned. In those existing programs where something vital may be want-
ing, no lack of conscientiousness or capacity on the part of personnel involved
should be inferred. Over the years, there may have been many reasons why
some strategic area has been neglected. In a city as large as ours, it may also
happen that a service eminently worthwhile in years past, today needs to be
reconsidered and replanned.
Our task is one to be accomplished only over a period of time. Deliberations
today build upon work that has gone' before. This report is related to earlier
studies : and a number of important matters are only touched uipon here, as they
will be covered at greater length in other reports.
My emphasis throughout, has been upon employment of public funds through
programs in public agencies. However, there are areas where private and sec-
tarian agencies have clearly demonstrated an ability to provide valuable services
of a supplementary character, when public moneys are placed at their disposal.
I recommend continuance of this pattern, along already well established lines,
through the youth board contract program (see appendix II). Nongovern-
mental bodies have a most important part to play in any community program.
It is to be hoped that the fund-raising efforts of responsible private and sec-
tarian agencies this year will permit the ambitious and highly laudable pro-
gram expansions they projected in our joint discussions.
A joint policy statement of private and sectarian agencies appears here as
appendix IV.
Certain highly important projects (which have come to my attention from
various sources) do not seem appropriate or possible enterprises for the city
government to undertake. These I have listed in appendix III. Should civic
groups, service organizations, individual philanthropists, or foundations be inter-
ested in details on any of these undertakings, my staff have prepared brief out-
lines of possible first steps on each of them.
I do wish, however, to present for immediate consideration 10 programs I
believe should be acted upon without delay. You will find here, and throughout
my report, two equally important emphases : services for more children and
more effective service to the children we do reach. A sound approach must be
rooted in these foundations.
TEN PRIORITY PROGRAMS
Provision of competent staff for recreational facilities already available in
27 public-housing projects (for residents of projects and their neighbors) ;
planning for staff in all the other projects not presently served.
Expansion of the remedial reading program in our schools to enable children
to get 100-cent value on the education dollar.
Police services affecting juvenile delinquency.
Expansion of the youth board street club project and its services to families
and children.
Provision of programs under youth board contract to the three areas in Man-
hattan, Staten Island, and Queens where delinquency rates have increased alarm-
ingly ; contracts for casework, group work and recreation services from private
as well as public agencies.
Reexamination of teacher rotation policies, in an effort to assure placement
of a larger proportion of our more highly experienced teachers in "difficult"
schools.
4 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Parent education programs centered around informal discussion groups.
Expansion of the co-op program which provides students an opportunity to
complete their high school education while working half time in private industry
at prevailing wages ; more guidance services.
Inauguration of training services tlirough the youth board to equip its own
personnel to do an even more effective job, and to serve other departments which
have approached the youth board for this kind of help; a fellowship study
program for adding to the professional skills of workers on key projects in various
citv youth-serving agencies.
Provision for small, toi>-caliber units to do overall planning and to be respon-
sible for assessment.
Before detailing the value of the 10 programs mentioned above, it is important
that some general considerations be clarified.
May I remark at the outset tliat juvenile delinquency is neither a new prob-
lem nor one we can expect to meet with temporary expedients.
With so much talk of juvenile delinquency in the air and scare headlines all
too frequently in the press, we are apt to forget the 97 juveniles in 100 who
do not come in conflict with the law.
When the word "teen-ager" comes up, how often do we think of the nation-
wide science talent search, in which our students, less than 4 percent of the
Nation's high school population, regularly walk off with 20 percent or more cf
the awards.
How loud did the sirens blow when a teenager in or town a year ago won
first prize for school-or-community life photographs in the national contest with
27,000 entries? And how many iieople have heard about the youtli group here
that volunteers regular work sessions adding to a library for the blind which
houses the Nation's largest collection of hand-transcribed books?
Here are a few headlines which will seem more familiar : "Eleven-Year-Old
Steals Teacher's Purse," "Bjys Bind and Kob Playmates," "Schoolgirls
Sweethearts, 16 and 17, Fight a Duel." These are the sort that have always
made news. But here's one from the month before : "Legislator Aids Boy" — the
story is about Assemblyman Robert F. Wagner, who volunteered his services to
defend a 17-year-old he believed wrongly accused of shooting his employer. The
year, for all those stories, 1905, exactly 50 years ago.
It seems to me we would do well to lender awhile on the manner in which
public opinion today may affect law enforcement as respects juveniles. It
would come as a real shock to hear the casual suggestion that three men stand-
ing on the corner talking ought not to be on the street, but change the men to
17-year-olds and it would almost seem they had lost their rights as citizens.
Or think of a driver who has run through a red light; when he receives Ms
ticket, we think of him as a traffic violator, not a criminal. Let the driver be
a youth, however, and there's a buzz of voices immediately against the "juvenile
delinquent."
This may seem a trival consideration, but it is not trival to one who feels a
door has l^een slannned in his face, ^''ew York has always taken pride in its.
young people : we have always felt this was the city, of all cities, that opened
wide the door to citizenship. Yet today it almost seems as though no one is a
citizen until he has attained the magical age of 21 ; and all the unfortunates
who must wait the years until they attain that enviable distinction are high
handedlv placed on continuous probation.
We cannot have it both ways : Either our young people are a welcome part
of the New York community, or they are some curious alien breed, shut out,
marking time till their 21st birthday.
We in the city administration share a common concern with the community's
religious leaders. There is a need tor reawakening our young people's appre-
ciation for higher values. We must labor, each in his own fashion, to open
wide a door to the world of satisfaction through social responsibility.
As adults we would do well to reflect upon our own behavior when we warn
youth against false values. And we would do well to think about the ways we
can demonstrate, on a day-to-day basis, that the good life is really a reward-
ing one.
Much has been made of the unfortunate impact a particular type of publication
is making upon our children and young people. It seems to me that it is unjust
to focus criticism upon a single influence of this sort.
We live in times of world conflict and the threat of war. Wherever the child
turns there is violence and talks of violence. To a stranger crime and sex might
almost seem the sinister preoccupations of our people. The child grows up in
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 5'
a world of tension, not of his makinj;'. Yet 97 children in 100 — even more if we
confine our attention to the delinquents who are brought to court — make a "go"
of it in a world that seems pretty confusing even to sophisticated adults.
The example we set is not always the best. There have been reports in these
I)ast months of a tax authority who committed suicide while under indictment
for income-tax evasion; three different schoolteachers (not of this city) who
sought si)ecial consideration when arrested for driving past a halted school bus;
the reader can add examples of his own. We have our Schweitzers and our
Einsteins, our Helen Kellers, and our Marion Andersons, true. But it is well
to dwell a moment upon the observation of the director of one of our better
juvenile institutions "adults deceive each other and children deceive the adults."
Our Nation takes pi'ide in the fact that our press, lilms, radio, television, etc.,
are not under Government control. Private initiative in the great media of
information has demonstrated time and again that it can make a responsible
social contribution in periods of crisis. These times cryingly demand imagina-
tion and leadership from those eiltrusted with the media. I believe there are
many who have already perceived the challenge and are moving forward as
responsible citizens. The task of glamorizing socially constructive activities — of
better informing the public as to the nature of juvenile delinquency — is a great
one. To reacli beyond the glorification of crime and the confusion of moral
values must be more than an aspiration — we look to the industry for positive
contributions.
HOME, FAMILY, COMMUNITT
In reviewing studies of the juvenile delinquency problem, probably the clear-
est picture that emerges is the difficulties commonly inherent in the home
situation. Now in commenting upon juvenile delinquency, it must be remem-
bered that our information pertains almost exclusively to youngsters who have
been apprehended and appear for disposition before public authority. Further-
more, in pointing up the shortcomings of the family setting in which so many
of these young offenders have been reared, we are often uninformed as to the
number of children who, confronted by identical handicaps, have made "go" of
social living.
Withal, there appears to be a consistent pattern of deprivation, which I believe
any fair-minded person would agree creates a real hazard to the growing child.
There are social handicaps which exert a real pressure upon youngsters from
underprivileged neighl)orhoods ; overcrowded, unhealthy tenement living, dis-
crimination, grinding poverty, lack of recreation facilities, an atmosphere of
crime in the very air they breathe. But as Prof. Gordon Allport, of Harvard
University, has observed (175, introduction), it is the emotional tone of the
home, not the plumbing, that is likely to prove a decisive determinant of juve-
nile delinquency.
We may be on the threshold of a greater understanding of the nature of this
disorder. Prof. Sheldon Glueck and Dr. Eleanor Glueck believe they have de-
veloped a technique for recognizing, by the characteristics of family psychology,
just which children are growing up in the most hazardous surroundings. If
their predictive measures prove reliable, we could ascertain in advance pre-
cisely which children (and which families) are in need of preventive services —
before serious trouble ever develops.
Many delinquent children have parents who can truly be said to poison the
atmosphere of the home. Marital conflict between the parents is common, indeed
one autliority suggests that tensions in a home where the parents are deeply
dissatisfied with one another are more injurious to children than a broken home
would be (28). But studies of comparable groups of children have shown there
are close to twice as many from broken homes in the delinquent as in the
nondelinquent group (28). The Gluecks' recent research found I delinquent
in 4 came from families where self-interest exceeded group interest ; this was
true of less than 1 in 100 children in their nondelinquent control group (67).
Children who turn up as delinquents are also more likely to have been set a
criminal example at home. The study mentioned above, showed delinquents
twice as likely as nondelinquents to have had a father, brothei*, or sister already
in conflict with the law — and three times as likely to have had a mother with a
criminal record (67). Another researcher reporting on youths discharged from
a truant school but subsequently charged with felonies, found 4 out of 5 were
reared in families in which another member had a criminal record (28).
Parents' attitudes toward children, and children's conceptions of their parents
differ significantly in comparable groups of delinquents and nondelinquents.
6 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
The Gluecks report 60 percent of their delinquents felt their fathers were indif-
ferent or hostile; this was true of only 1 in 5 among the nondelinquents (226).
Delinquent* felt their mothers were not deeply concerned about their welfare
in 8 cases out of 10; only 3 mothers out of 10 among the nondelinquents (226).
Of the groups studied, one-fifth of the luothers worked, mothers of delinquents
as well as mothers of nondelinquents. Nevertheless while 7 mothers of delin-
quents in 10 were found giving "wholly unsuitable" supervision to their sons,
among the nonedlinquent boys,^ only 1 mother in 10 failed in this resi^ect (226).
I do not wish to bog down in statistics, but mention ought to be made of
one more highly illuminating inquiry. Close to 20 years ago a volume was
published examining the differences between delinquents and nondelinquent
youngsters reared in the same houses and families. Healy and Bronner (86)
reported that the nondelinquents found home relationships more satisfying
than delinquents in the same family did. And seven times as many delin-
quent children were found to have had emotional disturbances in their relations
with others, mostly in the home. The delinquents were unhappy, discontented
youngsters, shortchanged in some fashion as compared with their own non-
delinquent brothers and sisters.
The same story is repeated by child-guidance workers, police, probation officers,
social workers, teachers, pastors. The child who becomes a delinquent is more
likely than not to come from a home where he is neglected, rejected, or subject
to harsh and even unjust punishment. In a large proportion of eases, one
parent is missing ; and when both parents are in the home, in case after case
it has been found the child is suffering because of continual bickering or open
violence between father and mother.
In situations such as these, and where parental discipline is irregular or
completely neglected, the child will tend to strike out for himself. And there
is every likelihood he will strike out in the wrong direction.
It is only with the very greatest rarity that a thorough examination of the life
history of a detected delinquent will fail to uncover pressures (psychological
or social) which may reasonably be regarded as the roots of maladjustment.
In our understanding of particular situations, there is undoubtedly a certain
gap between the commonly accepted causative factors and delinquent acts on
the part of an individual. Nonetheless, certain social situations can with con-
siderable assurance be said to constitute fertile soil for delinquency.
To recapitulate, these are : rejection, tyranny, abuse, frustration, failure,
limitation of opportunity, conflict of cultures.
A child can grow into a socially integrated adult even in a home where
a brother or sister is shown preference. A child can grow into a socially inte-
grated adult even though deprived of a parent's love. A child can grow into a
socially integrated adult despite discrimination by reason of race. A child can
grow into a socially integrated adult despite slum environment with all its
deprivations. Even a child who is brutally abused, or punished unjustly can grow
into a socially integrated adult.
It is most important that these facts not be ignored. But we do know that
a cumulation of deprivation and destructive experiences leaves a mark. The child
reared under such conditions is in hazard ; where the negative forces multiply,
the hazard is increased.
Frequent mention will be made in this report of the situation of children and
youth in deteriorated or deteriorating neighborhoods. Let it be clearly under-
stood at the outset that delinquents are found in families more fortunately
circumstanced as well.
It is a fact that the larger part of our juvenile court cases come from among
the poorest segment of the city's population. It seems most likely that this is
due to lack of home and neighborhood advantages (material, social, and
phychological). But another consideration is fashions in delinquent behavior,
which may have the outcome of more crimes of a violent character, say, in one
sort of neighborhood and more crimes of stealth in another. Finally, there are
the very important differentials in financial ability of parents to make private
arrangements for the care and treatment of problem youngsters.
Ours is a Nation dedicated to the proposition that all people should be accorded
an equal opportunity to make their way in the world, that a man should be judged
on his merits. Reflect upon the measure of our failure if I report that an out-
- Juvenile court records list 3 or 4 times as many boys as girls, however girls' social
histories reflect similar problems. In my own repeat, "boys," in most instances may also
be read "children."
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 7
standing scholar in the field contends that "the permanent factor which perhaps
contributes more than any other to the creation of delinquency (is) bad housing."
As it happens, our achievements in this field and the nature of the road
ahead lie beyond the province of this report. But I would like to add one
more homely example of the kind of environmental pressures affecting children in
New York, 195.5. A well-informed ofiicial* estimates on the basis of reported
cases that in our city some 25,000 human beings — mostly babies— are bitten by
rats every year. It is hardly nece^^jary to ask oneself how such an occurrence
affects the outlook on life of the victim — and his family.
Perhaps one final note on environmental deprivations will suflice. This story
is told by a social worker who has a most distinguished record of service over
the decades in some of our more underprivileged neighborhoods :
"(There are neighborhoods characterized by) acceptance of the inevitability
of adult crime, juvenile delinquency * * * racial tensions, gang warfare * * *.
In such a neighborhood I was told by a 15-year-old boy who had just stabbed'
another boy with a penknife, that 'you could get a good paid job sticking people
if you got good at it.' That was 25 years ago, and that neighborhood is worse
today, not better. The bootleggers of prohibition have given way to the narcotics
pushers."
PUNISHMENT AND REFORM
In devising programs to meet the challenge of juvenile delinquency, we are
confronted with a major dilemma of approach at the outset. Many would
subscribe to the philosophy of a social agency which has been notably successful
in its work with every sort of delinquent over a period of more than 50 years :
"llie delinquent (is) primarily a products of social forces, of disorganized
homes and unhealthy neighborhood conditions. He is in the main a deprived
youngster whose emotional needs have been insufficiently satisfied. His be-
havior is a reaction to his life experience."
Others contend that a crime is a crime and that anyone not a mental incom-
petent should l)e made to answer for his actions. They contend that a "senti-
mental" approach is interpreted as weakness on the part of society, that punish-
ment is the sure deterrent.
But the facts simply do not support this latter view.
"* * * in all the reliable 20th century studies on the causation of delinquency
and crime, it is almost impossible to find a reference to leniency of punishment
as a cause. * * * The history of punishment shows that there is no necessary
correlation between the severity of punishment and the incidence of
crime. * * *"
There would seem to be a need to steer a sure course between what most
thoughtful citizens might characterize as the "sentimental" and the "revenge"
approaches to this question. Mr. Justice Cardozo many years ago observed
that the justice due the ofiender is due the community as well. Law is the
adhesive that binds our society together ; it is not to be violated lightly.
Actually, the most "moderate" of the experts in the field seem to feel that
punishment can play a constructive role in rehabilitation, if it is applied plan-
fully and for helpful rather than vengeful purposes. Unfortunately, many
people believe that juvenile delinquency is tlie evil fruit of a "spare the rod"
philosophy. There certainly can be no doubt that there are children who, as a
result of having been spoiled, are completely regardless of the rights of others.
A larger group of juvenile delinquents, however, and a group more typical of
these problem youngsters by and large, have experienced punishment— and cor-
poral punishment at that. They have probably had too much such treatment
ratber than too little.
Recent studies show that one-fifth to one-third of all our nondelinquent children
and young people experience physical punishment at home. A study of delin-
quent children on the other hand, shows twice as many receiving physical punish-
ment. The superintendent of a midwestern reform school remarked to a
visiting journalist that he used the pnddle because 90 percent of his boys reported
they'd been whipped at home. And the reporter^ very acutely observed that
"apparently whipping failed to act as a deterrent for 90 percent of the boys who
ended up in this institution. It seems to me that there is a lesson here to reflect
upon as we proceed with our planning.
s C'larles Abrams.
* Albert Deutsch.
8 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
In my own thinking, I would be inclined to go along with the joint public-
private service bureau which operates in the offices of our district attorneys.
This organization contends that even youthful offenders should not be regarded as
completely helpless victims of social forces. The offender has played an im-
portant part in whatever train of events has culminated in his conflict with the
law. And he has a part to play— in a very real sense, an independent part — in
the process of finding a constructive place for himself in the world.
"Nobody can mold anybody else's character because a human is not a lump
of putty. He is a living' being— he grows * * *. The impulses which may have
taken a vicious form and brought boys into conflict with authority are basically
the energies of life. It is within the realm of the possible to redirect these
energies so that they will no longer destroy but instead serve the better interests
of (young people) and of society * * *. (This redirection) is an achievement of
the youth himself. His counsellors help by making his problem clearer to him,
by encouragement and suggestion. But when the change takes place, it is the
individual concerned who makes the effort."
Before proceeding to discussion of the particular programs I have suggested for
high-priority consideration, a few more general observations may not be out of
order.
eecidivism:
While I shall not discuss the matter at length in this report, the problem
of repeated delinquency, unreformed offenders, is a crucial one. When a wrong-
doer is caught, society has an opportunity — in cases where he is not executed or
imprisoned for life — to set him on the right path. The ultimate test of cor-
rectionel institutions is the recidivism rate; do offenders reform, or does the
correctional treatment leave them uncorrected.
There is beginning to be a highly illuminating body of literature in answer
to that question. And some people may be surprised to learn that in study
after study of juvenile delinquents, it is the institutions with the social workers,
the psychologists, the special teachers — the institutions that talk about "trying
to understand and help each boy" — it is these institutions that prove to have
the smaller proportion of children reappearing in our courts and police stations.
Nationwide studies, studies in Chicago and in Boston, show that 6 de-
linquents in 10 (in some places more), turn up again, following institutionali-
zation. But 2 really treatment-oriented centers here in New York report less
than 3 in 10 of their boys turn up in court after being released. Dr.
Frank Curran (who served the New York City children's courts as a psychiatrist
at Bellevue Hospital) reports that of his first .300 juvenile cases there,^ only
1 in 10 had reappeared in the courts for antisocial acts, 11/2 to 2 years later.
In the case of those who have to be removed from circulation for a period,
the case seems clear. Our interest is cutting down on delinquent behavior for
the sake of the community, and with an eye to a useful, satisfying, socially
accepted life for the adjudged delinquent. If our interest in short is rehabilita-
tion rather than vengeance we are now in a position to say that reeducation
must go on alongside the temporary loss of liberty that the offender must not
merely be punished but counseled and helped. Of "correction" and correctional
institutions it is truly possible to say "by their fruits ye shall know them."
A "hard core" of juvenile delinquency?
Our city is growing; there is an ever larger crop of youngsters entering the
delinquency-hazard age bracket, 5-20 years.*
In 19.50 one-fifth of our population fell into this age group. But by 1960,
with the war babies and the postwar babies growing up, 1 New Yorker in every
4 will be between 5 and 20.'
If juvenile delinquency is a problem now, we really have something to insure
against, with regard to the future. For if the delinquency rate were to stop
rising, if we could merely hold our own, the number of delinquents in the larger
youth population — at the present delinquency rate (roughly 2i^ i)ercent) — would
by 1960 stand 9,000 higher than the present figure.
^ Tn 85 percent of which, the courts concurred with psychiatric counsel.
« If 5 seems a tender age to list as the lower limit. I misht mention the fact that in the
Gluecks research, more than 44 percent of their 500 delinquents displayed clear signs of
antisocial behavior between the ages of 5 and 7.
' City Planning Commission estimates.
JUVENILE DELmQUENCY 9
A possibly fruitful line of inquiry in determining just where preventive
services miglit most suitably be directed, is suggested by two recent studies in
St. Paul, Minn, and in San Mateo County (around San P^raucisco). This
research concentrated on the proportion of social problems presented by a
relatively small number of families in each community. The San Mateo report,
for example, reported that 1,2G7 families, only IVa percent of the total number,
accounted for every (detected and reported) case of juvenile misbehavior as well
as about half of the petty crimes and misdemeanors in the whole community.
Findings along the same lines are reported by parallel welfare research projects
in Maryland and Minnesota.
If our own youth-board data are analyzed along roughly the same lines,
focussing upon the relatively small number of delinquents who appear on the
register more than once, a figure for New York of the same order of magnitude
is suggested. The hard core of the juvenile delinquency problem may well
be found in just a few thousand families here, out of a total of close to a
million families with children aged 5 to 20.
A study of the actual dimensions of this small but crucial aspect of the
problem may open the way to new approaches to the challenge of delinquency.
The idea certainly seems worthy of the most serious consideration in our
overall planning. But it must be well understood that working with the seg-
ment of the population considered here means working with those presenting
the thorniest problems : people often demoralized, hopeless, long and deeply
entangled in a multitude of social problems, people often suspicious and hostile
toward both officials and social agencies. These are the uncooperative, the
unresponsive, the cases with poor prospects. But they are people who badly
need help, and people who present a formidable problem to the community
at large, draining resources from a variety of channels both as criminals and
as chronic dependents. The particular group to which I refer includes families
known at one time or another to a very large number of welfare agencies. It
cannot in any sense be regarded as identical with the welfare department
caseload, the overwhelming majority of whom are good citizens dependent
through no fault of their own.
CONSERVING PUBLIC FUNDS
In c(msidering which programs we should underwrite, there is an important
word to be said about conserving public funds. For one thing, our endeavor
should be to channel what money we do have into programs where the largest
possible proportion of it gets to the firing line.
We should, however, be prepared to reexamine oi)erations that seem promis-
ing, after a time has passed. Careful assessment and factfinding programs
should he built into our various activities in this area, as we embark upon
them.' This is a task calling for scientific know-how, it cannot be adequately
handled by mei-e administrative procedure. I am therefore recommending an
overall coordinated study project in addition to factfinding in particular agencies.
To undertake a course of action without a positive knowledge that it will
succeed is unfortunately a not-uncommon necessity. In our present situation
we cannot mark time. But to muddle along indefinitely without even trying
to ascertain whether we were moving in the direction of a solution, would be
unpardonable. "Practice cannot and should not wait upon research, nor should
research be delayed until practice is well established. We shall be most likely
to discover how to prevent delinquency if research is undertaken coordinately
with the development of new measures and the refinement of old ones, if research
and practice are conceived as inseparable parts of a single process."
PRIORITY PROGRAMS
A thorough-going preventive program that would attack juvenile delinquency
at the most basic level might include operations liaving to do with housing,
employment, family living .standards, social discrimination. And even the most
ambitious program, we must realize, can be expected rather to diminish delin-
quency than to abolish it. We are no more likely completely to prevent delin-
quency than we are to abolish adult crime.
^ Notp in this conneotlon the youth hoard's research project to find out whether we can
spot delinquents before they get into trouble, and how effective our help proves to be.
This Is a follow-up on tlie Ghiecks' study mentioned above.
10
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
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JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 11
In presenting these priority programs, then, I am proposing merely a munber
of rehitively small-scale projects, designed to meet the challenge in some very
different ways. AH seem to be pointed in a promising direction ; in a sense, each
program stands on its own, but in another sense, they are complementary.
These approaches are among tlie more promising at the present stage of our
knowledge. I present them in a tirm belief they have the greatest likelihood
of success. But even those that seem the most sensible offer no gilt-edge guai-anty.
For example, I am endorsing recreation programs through oiir public hoiising
autliority, in the imblic scools, through the youth board (private agency contracts,
etc.). I have endorsed these three programs in the belief they will offer indis-
pensible services to large numbers of youngsters who might otherwise have to do
without.
But we cannot depend upon recreation alone to do the job. Despite our best
wishes, tliere are complications: (1) Children can participate at length in the
the best of recreation programs, yet have plenty of time in odd hours to get
into mischief, if they're so inclined; (2) recreation programs can reach half the
children, tlii'ee-quarters of the cldldren in a neighborhood, yet fail to include
precisely the ones who arc headed for trouble. I can recall one authority
remarking ujon the fact that he never liad known a member of a particular
youth organization to have turned up as a delinquent. Now, he meant to call
attention to the value of the organization in preventing delinquency, but he
may actually have only pointed out that the organization simply failed to reach
the kind of boy wlio got into trouble.
I have digressed to point out the possible weaknesses of a kind of program in
which I really have great faith. My intention was not a confuse the issue but
to liring to the reader's attention the very imprecise state of our knowledge as to
what may really sei-ve to cut down on delinquency. Every one of the 10 priority
programs detailed in the following pages has already been well tried in the field
and seems to be meeting a vital need. 1 am convinced that neither parent
education, nor club work, nor school jirograms, nor youth police alone can solve
our problem. Together, however, they piece our a fairly inclusive pattern of
attack upon the variety of anti-social acts we call juvenile delinquency.
Recreation and community programs in piiMic liousinfj
Some 78,000 child live in only 27 of New York's public housing projects.
In order to provide for full utilization of existing community recreation facilities
in these buildings, I have recommended adoption of a $20o 513 per annum staff-
ing program developed with the collaboration of Chairman Philip Cruise of the
housing authority. This, I am happy to say, was appropriated March 25, 1955.
Six facilities will be operated as extensions of settlement house programs,
two by the authority itself, 19 by the bureau of community education of our
public schools.
Asked for his reaction to this proposal, Professor Sheldon Glueck of the
Harvard Law School, regarded my many as probably the foremost authority
on juvenile delinquency wrote:
"I think you are definitely working in the right direction. My only suggestion
as to the budget request is that perhaps it would point out that the proposed
community facilities cou'd be of value not only for the children, but for the
parents. One of the basic differences between delinquents and nondelinquents
is the relative infrequency with which the families of the former engage in
group recreation. The provision of leadership for the proposed community
centers should stimulate the restoration of a long lost and highly social value — ■
family-group recreational activities both in and out of the centers.
Another suggestion that might strengthen the appeal of the budget requests
would be that the proposed community centers might also be used as places
where troubled parents could go for consultations and guidance regarding
the emotional and behavioral problems of children. It could be provided, in
collaboration with child guidance clinics, to have such consultation services
supplied once or twice a week at the centers."
These additional facilities will be made available as fast as this program can
be put into operation. It should be noted that the cost of year-round program
in these centers all over the city, serving 191,400 of our citizens (78,000 of them
children) " is relatively insignificant, in view of the kind of job we know can
be done by skilled leaders. These services (housed in already available plant)
® To these should be added those served in the surrounding neighborhood.
65263—55 2
12
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
COMMUNITY CENTERS IN PUBLIC HOUSING PROJECTS
▲ sTArrcD BY BUREAU or
COMMUNITY EDUCATION
^ STAFfED BY PRIVATE AGE
■ STAFFED BY NEW YORK C
HOUSING AUTHORITY
INC0MPLETE1.Y STAFFED
AT PRESENT
NO STAFF AT PRESENT
NO SUITABLE FACILITIES
o
D
' HOUSING AUTHOfllTT DATA
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 13
Avill cost the city no more than the operating expense of a single large-scale
tacility which would hardly he in a position to provide for so large a number.
This program, a beginning, should be folhnved by like programs in other public
housing projects on a selective neighborhood need basis. Provision of staffs for
middle-income projects, for example, is presently under consideration.
Remedial readbuj
Reading retardation is one of the special handicaps often associated with
juvenile delinquency. The retarded reader is unable to meet other children on
equal terms since he is materially handicapped in the area of activity that con-
sumes the largest single block of his waking hours. As he moves into the higher
grades ability to read becomes essential to any other kind of learning — text-
books and other printed material become the major tool.
The child who can't make a "go" of things in school gets more and more Into a
rut of failure and frustration. He becomes insecure, hostile, rebellious. A mid-
western school official writes :
"As to the question of relationship between reading disability and what is
<'alled juvenile delinquency, there is no question in my mind. When children
are required to perform with textbooks for 5 hours of the day, they have to be
at least moderately successful. When they are not, the tension and strain of
fruitless effort, aggravated by the censure of the school, becomes intolerable and
the kids will compensate. They may do so by heaving rocks through windows
or punching other kids, but when these outlets pale they have to move on to
more spectacular and undesirable behavior * * * Problem children who have
been given reading skills generally cease to be behavior problems when they are
released from the clinics."
The bureau of child guidance in our own public-school system estimates that :
"Two-thirds of the children referred (for problems of various sorts) show
some degree of retardation in reading * * * fully one-fifth show a severe reading
handicap * * * It is highly probable that the proportion of children with read-
ing handicaps among * * * truants and delinquents would prove to be higher
than 20 percent * * * systematized individual and small-group instruction for
these children often overcomes this handicap and reestablishes a degree of con-
fidence in themselves which can do much to facilitate their readjustment."
The board of education personnel who know this field agree that : "failure in
reading accounts more than any other single factor for behavior problems,
truancy, and general school failure."
Chief Justice John Warren Hill of our children's court contends : "It
has been shown conclusively that there is a definite link between * • * reading-
retardation and delinquency." Reading difficulties were reported for 75 percent
of the delin(iuents in the nonschool part of children's court; of the boys in
detention at Youth House, 85 i>ercent are handicapped by being unable to read
books appropriate to their grade in school.^"
This is no small scale challenge. As of 4 years ago, 35 percent of our students
entering academic high schools and 80 percent of those entering vocational high
schools were a year or more retarded in reading (joint State-city study).
In June 1954, 20,000 New York City children, from the fourth to the sixth grade
alone, showed a reading retardation of 2 years or more.
More than half of 55,000 New York City eighth graders examined a few years
ago were below grade in reading ability, and 1 in 5 failed even to score at sixth
grade level.
Our public schools are presently providing "remedial reading teachers" for
less than 20 percent of the children who are handicapped by major reading dis-
abilities. Four children in five have to "make do" with regular classroom re-
sources.
Only 137 of 553 grade schools have a "remedial reading teacher." There is
no developed program, centrally staffed for the junior high schools. Any remedial
reading work in the high school is strictly on the initiative of the individual
principal.
In grade schools the "remedial reading teachers" (who have helped many
children and are a source of valuable coutfsel to other teachers) are almost all
regular classroom i)ersonnel who have had 2 weeks of in-service training."
'"Tills compjucs with Traxlor's study indicatiii!.' only 10 percent of the Nation's .school
population reqnirps wppcial help because of retardation In readlnjr.
" It .should be recognized that many have gone on to secure certain training beyond the
minimum.
14 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Authorities outside our school system feel that it takes a year's or 2 years' train-
ing to acquire real competence in coping with the variety of problems presented
by retarded readers.
Although reading retardation is commonly associated with emotional prob-
lems, it is the rare case served by remedial reading staff in which the bureau
of child guidance is also involved.
There is an urgent need for expansion of the volume of remedial teaching avail-
able in our schools." And there is a need, too, for adding a number of fully quali-
fied specialists to provide intensive services for children with major conflicts
in their approach to school work. The coaching job that present staff contributes
is a creditable one, but there are many cases where coaching is not enough.
Reading disability is most commonly associated with boredom with school and
general maladjustment. While native intelligence is about the same for both
boys and girls, reading retardation (like delinquent behavior) is found far more
commonly in boys. Since there is good reason to presume that emotional rather
than purely intellectual obstacles are involved, service in this field cannot be
carried on single-handed by classroom teachers, no matter what in-service helps
are made available to them. Wherever a remedial reading operation is offered,
it realistically must provide for adequate social work and psychological services
on a "built-in" basis. Employment of such personnel should not be at the
expense of bureau of child guidance services.
To place on remedial reading teacher in every school having 30 or more eli-
gible children would require at least 100 additional positions. If fully quali-
fied specialists are not recruited for this work, there should at least be a psy-
chologist and a social worker as consultants to the reading teachers; 1 such
team with each of the 24 assistant superintendents.'''
Superintendent of Schools Jansen is agreed on the importance of focusing
efforts upon reading. As a matter of fact, an attack upon reading problems has
been chosen by the school authorities as a No. 1 objective for the next academic
year.
The board of education budgeted expansion centers about an imaginative sum-
mer program (integrating coaching in reading with a recreation approach) and
"reading clinics" so small as to be of a demonstration character. The two under-
takings combined were budgeted at $48,000, scarcely more than one one-hundredth
of 1 percent of next year's school expenditures. A larger commitment would
seem desirable. I would in fact go beyond the board of education's modest
request. So vital do I consider this activity that I would strongly urge at least
150 added reading teachers and specialists, and combined summer reading and
recreation programs on a substantial scale. A start should be made promptly."
Police services and juvenile delinquency
I have reviewed with Police Commissioner Adams the role of the police in
meeting the challenge of juvenile delinquency. We see eye to eye on the impor-
tance of adequate provisions for law enforcement. Our city must dedicate itself
to a reign of law and order, and youth who think they are outside limitations
which the rest of society accepts have got to learn the facts of life.
But the law does not survive by force alone. And the police have a real con-
tribution to make beyond deterrence, enforcement, apprehension, detection. We
are returning to the good days of "the officer on the beat," and the police officer
on the beat is as likely a man as any to know just which kids are headed for
trouble. There are situations where a friendly interest will "turn the trick,''
others where a judicious word to parents will help set a youngster straight.
In some situations, however, a good deal more than incidental interest or a
few well-chosen words are called for. And while force may clamp down the
lid for a while, I am convinced it can never solve problems in the long run.
There are boys, and girls, too, who can be set straight even after the first trans-
gression. But setting them straight may take more time than an officer on
street patrol can give, and oftentimes a little highly specialized understanding
is needed as well. This is, I believe, where a police unit such as the juvenile
aid bureau could come into the pictuj-e.
1= At present, despitp .in increase in the number of pupils, the number of "remedial read-
ins: teachers" is one-fifth lower than it was in 1947.
" At present there are no such personnel at all assigned to this program.
14 The cost of the program outlined above would be about .');7.')0,000 per annum. This,
however, does not provide more than one teacher for schools having large numbers of
retarded readers.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
15
GRADE SCHOOLS HAVING MORE THAN 30 RETARDED READERS*
BUT NO ''REMEDIAL READING TEACHER"
IN 3"». A'" & 5" YEABS ONLY. I.Q-5.«90 ONLY.
2 OR MORE YEARS RETARDATION.
BOAnO or CDOCATION DATA
16 JUVENILE DELINQUEI>rCY
Replying to an inquiry in 1952, of members of the International Association
of Chiefs of Police, every one of the 20 reporting for American cities of over
500,000 population had officers of whom special qualifications were required,
assigned to work with juveniles. These are policemen who can make
social investigations of sorts, as well as criminal investigations. All our great
cities have special policemen and policewomen who understand young people,
who can be friendly and who can be firm — police who bring to their assignment a
groundwork in psychology — officers who know which agencies in the community
are best in a position to help a youngster headed for trouble, before catastrophe
engulfs him.^'' This mission involves something more than surveillance of bars
and dancehalls.
Our own juvenile aid bureau personnel must all have served at least a year
in the precincts ; almost all of them have had special schooling in the social
sciences. This arm of the force has a vital job to do in explaining the law and
the police to young troublemakers. JAB patrolmen are in a position to make
immeasurably easier the job of the pastor, the settlement club leader, the school-
teacher— yes, and the parent."
JAB followups on juveniles not arrested (probably the major service JAB
renders the rest of the force) were up by 19 percent last year. But during the
same period, personnel available for service in the field dropped by 2 percent.
JAB at present is without units in almost half the divisions in the city."
From sunset to dawn the Bureau is such a skeleton that there is practically no
JAB. If we were to staff our JAB to a level where half the cities in the country
were ahead of us in number of juvenile officers per 100,000 population, JAB
strength would be 2S0. I hope New York eventually will be above average.
Commissioner Adams recognizes the valuable work done by JAB officers. The
accompanying map, showing incidence of youth offenses in the city of New
York, is based upon data supplied by JAB from its records and knowledge of
conditions.'** But the commissioner and top level police department staff do not
feel that they have sufficient adequate and reliable data on the work of JAB
and youth patrolmen to warrant a present citywide expansion of such forces.
Where adult crime has dropped sharply as a result of the experiment in pro-
viding a larger number of oflBcers to particular precints, a corresponding result
has, at least outwardly, been evident in juvenile offenses in the same areas.
The commissioner is convinced that he must, in justice to his duty to the city,
concentrate on basic police protection problems. Yet he is sufficiently convinced
of the inseparable interrelationship of youthful offenses and criminal activities
generally, not to abandon the work of the JAB and youth patrolmen at this time.
Commission; 1- Adams and I have agreed that the work of the JAB'" should
be put to an intensive test and study in. say, 4 areas in which the incidence
of juvenile offenses is greatest. Controlled observation of results is planned
over a period of 5 years (a maximum figure). The roles of both JAB and youth
patrolmen in the police department are presently undergoing review and ap-
praisal. This control period will permit an evaluation on which to base conclu-
sions for citywide expansion, or a transfer of this phase of community work to
some other agency. Such experimentation and close observation will cost less
than an overall program in this field for the entire city.
I believe that while Commissioner Adams' experiment is in progress, provision
should be made for enlisting the services of civilian specialists to make available
to the Department useful approaches from related fields. Mr. Adams is, of
course, interested in evaluating the effectiveness of a youth-police operation
that is no "strawman." I know that he will cooperate in every way with the
professors on the overall assessment unit which will integrate factfinding with
reference to operations of all agencies working in the juvenile deliquency field.
'= Every one of the units in cities of over 500,000 poinilation is affiliated with at least
one community iilannine or coordinating ajrency (such as welfare and health council).
^0 I believe that specially trained police personnel can make a unique contribution in
working directly with parents, perhaps on a block-by-block basis. But a program along
such lines may' have to be deferred pending completion of the study process mentioned
below.
1' .Juvenile aid bureau units arc assi-rnrd responsibilities which cover the entire city.
However, as JAB is not organized on a divisional basis, most units must serve two or more
divisions, rei-'nrdless of the division in which they are located.
18 Comparisons are in terms of the number of actions per precinct. These figures are not
ad.iusted for differences in the size of youth population, which varies from precinct to
precinct: delinquency statistics computed "per 1.000 youth" are presented on the map
showing youth board data.
1" With which should, I believe, be combined that of the youth patrolmen.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
17
DELINQUENCY RATES BY AREA. 1954
RATE PER 1.000 YOUTHS
5-20 YEARS
ABOVE RATC OTIDCO BY 10 EQUAJ-S PERCEN
; 'Youthful Offender'
NEW YOftK CITY YOUTH BOARD DATA BY RESiDENCC Or OfFENOCB
18 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Narcotics
I regret to report that while drug addicts have disappeared (or have been pretty
well driven underground) in our schools, there is every reason to believe that
narcotics still represent a major problem in the juvenile field and addiction is on
the increase.''" A large majority of our youthful drug users come from neigh-
borhoods where narcotics are more readily available and represent the poorest
educated youths. Interestingly enough, it appears that although most of the
addicts are found in high delinquency areas, there are certain areas of equally
high delinquency where drug use has not spread to any great extent.
Researchers report taht while there are more delinquencies for profit in
high drug use areas, the increase in delinquency as a whole (and in felonies)
has been no greater in high drug use than in low use areas. Indications are
that gang membership (as such) by and large does not lead to addiction. Fur-
thermore, education regarding the effects of drugs has proved effective in the
cases of children reached before the critical age; by the time a boy is 16, it
may already be too late. There is every reason to believe that such factual
information serves an especially useful purpose when provided to youth in the
areas where drugs are in any case more readily available.
The board of education a couple of years ago provided the schools with cur-
riculum materials on drugs for grades 7-12. Consideration might well be given
to doing some of this teaching in the 6th grade as well, to reach more children
approaching their 14th year.
There appear to be no particular measures indicated at this time which are
not already being applied. Research still in progress, however, may point to
new programs. We have a demonstration program at Riverside Hospital to
provide special treatment and foUowup care to teen-age addicts. An evaluative
study of this project will be undertaken very shortly, to report to the community
on what has been learned there and what is being accomplished.
Youth toard street clubs and casetcorJc services
The New York City Youth Board has been doing a notable job with predelin-
quent and delinquent youth who seemed too tough for any other agency to
handle. Developing from a pilot project sponsored by welfare council, the
council of street clubs, now provides a corps of specially trained, highly skilled
group workers who maintain a continuing contact with some 22 teen-age gangs.
As a result of the patient efforts of the social group workers, youths who were
prone to street fighting and even more serious crime are now moving in the direc-
tion of running successful social affairs and building their reputation in a more
socially acceptable fashion.
Make no mistake, this work is difficult and sometimes disappointing. Boys
who have been embittered by school failure, poverty, and social discrimination,
who have acquired their learning from hard tutors in the streets, do not become
little gentlemen overnight. It is just as well we recognize this so that no impos-
sible demands for window dressing "progress" reports confront this staff. They
are walking a tortuous road, but there have been some notable achievements.
Among the groups reached by this work, "gang wars" are virtually ancient
history. But the same cannot be said of other clubs in the same or other neigh-
borhoods, for whom we have not provided helpful leaders. To "pal around"
with the boys, to help arrange activities, to smooth school relations, more leaders
are needed.
The youth board proposes doubling the number of street clubs served in the
present project areas ; extension of service to other neighborhoods in equal volume
is also suggested. I strongly recommend that every cent requested for this
work be appropriated without delay.
There are precious few private agencies willing to undertake the difficult area
the youth board has cut out for itself. There is no agency in a position to carry
this work tlirough on the scale of the youth board operation. Their leaders have
the spirit, the will, and the know-how ; money is needed to quadruple staff on
this operation. It means reaching directly a pretty obstreperous sector of youth,
some of them before they get into serious trouble.
The street clubs project needs an increase of $508,000 by 1957-58. The youth
board can indicate by how much it is in a position to expand oi)erations this
next year.
=^0 .Tiivpnile drug arrosts were up ">0 percent in 1954. However, this may in some degree
reflect the availability of a larger number of enforcement personnel. Commissioner Adams
has been adding to the drug squad for some time and three times as many men are now on
the job as compared with 1951. New York owes its welfare council a salute for sounding
a danger signal several years ago.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
19
20
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY
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JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 21
To back up the street club workers, the youth board is ready to recruit social
caseworkers and even psychiatrists who are prepared to work on the street, in
poolrooms, in the back of a store, where these youth are to be found. Many
have problems of adjustment, employment problems, other needs beyond the
skills of their group leaders. In some instances, a good counselor can be of real
help not only to the boy but in straightening out a difficult family situation
as well.
There is a crying need in this city for a corps of specialists in personal and
family problems who are willing and able to go out to people who need help
instead of sitting in an office waiting for clients. The youth board services to
families and children has demonstrated over a period of time that it is up to this
job and has the will to carry it through.
An increase of $270,000 by 1957-.58 has been requested. Here, too, there is
virtually no other agency to provide the service.
I strongly recommend that these funds be granted. However, I suggest that
a clear statement be obtained from the youth board as to what proportion of this
program will be earmarked for services to adolescents and their families. This
work to date has been focused around 9-year olds, and while that service sector
should unquestionably be supported and extended, there is a crying need for
work with the older group as well.
I think our city can take real pride in the pioneer job the street-club project
and the services for families and children are doing. I have seen the letters
of inquiry the youth board has received from other cities contemplating similar
programs, the letters from overseas, as well. We are charting a new path of
service to those who need it most ; this is an approach to some of the very
thorniest problems in the whole welfare field. And it is an approach that seems
to pay off.
Providing comprehensive youth hoard services in three additional areas
The youth board's comprehensive juvenile delinquency index, which includes
all police and court reports,'' shows that in additicm to the 11 neighborhoods in
which program is presently concentrated, 3 new areas have passed the critical
point. Funds should lie allocated without dehiy for putting into Chelsea, part
of Long Island City and northern Staten Island the full Itattery of case work,
group work, and recreation services which already are contributing so largely to
stemming of the tide of delinquency in other high-hazard neighborhoods.
Right now, in Chelsea, for example, the private agencies are making a real effort
to cope with an increase in delinquency, but the problem is simply beyond their
resources. There are large numbers of teen-agers drifting about the streets,
loath to participate in established recreation programs, looking for a little ex-
citement. We should be imaginative enough to tlirow something substantial into
the gap right now, before trouble breaks out.
This is a tough neighborhood, but it has good citizens who have organized to
try to get some action on their problems. Newcomers, who have moved in of
recent years, are finding a place in the life of the community but they need help;
so do the people who have lived on the lower West Side all their lives.
It is regrettable that shortage of funds impels us to wait until the 11th
hour to provide opportunities that should have been made available all along.
But it is the 11th hour now. I have examined the shifting pattern of delinquency
rates. To wait any longer would be disa.strous.
To serve three new areas, youth board estimates the increase in cost as of
1957-58 would total $1,314,500.
That is a lot of money, but the youth board is prepared to show how many
would be reached in recreation programs, in club work, through case-work treat-
ment and counseling.^ Included in the total also are funds for referral units ;
special groups of social workers to talk with problem youngsters right in the
school and take steps to insure proper foUowup.
In connection with the referral units, however, I would recommend that the
youth board be urged not to confine them to grade schools alone, as has been
pretty much the practice to date. More of an attempt should be made to reach
teenagers. This means consideration not only of junior highs, but of high schools
as possible locations for referral units.
^ Except for confiriential "youthful offender" data.
'^ An important aspect of tlie youth board's program is the fact that it centers around
eervicps available, for the most part, In the neighborhoods. Patience and persistence are
called for In promotlnc the use of nelRhborhood resources. The tendency of certain
agencies, even those receiving public funds on contract, to shift operations to a few central
locations is deplorable.
22
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
NEW YORK CITY YOUTH BOARD SPECIAL SERVICE AREAS
AND PLANNED EXPANSION
i new service areas propoetd
■critical''boroer areas
prcsent" service areas
NEW YOBK CITY VOUTM aOAgO ijAfj*
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 23
Teacher rotation
It is generally recognized that there are a number of regular schools in our
jiuhlic system which present teachers with especially demanding requirements.
I refer to problems in the encouragement of learning and in the discipline area.
In order to assure the students in these schools equal educational opportunities,
a real effort to provide teachers of perhaps above average competence is
indicated.
There is a substantial body of opinion in informed quarters contending that
while many highly effective and dedicated teachers are to be found in such set-
tings, there may be a disproportionate number of teachers who, for one or another
reason, simply are not equal to the special demands of the situation. Dr. Jansen
lias informed me that a systematic review of one aspect of this problem is under-
way, with an eye to assuring the students in "difficult" schools a group of teach-
ers not including an inordinate proportion of substitutes or newcomers to the
system.
Delinquency rates vary markedly from school to school. P^very effort should
be made to assure assignment of our most capable teaching persoiuiel to children
growing up in high hazard environments. This is a top priority question. There
is a real need for reevaluation of our teacher rotation policies.
Steps have already been taken to offer special incentives to experienced teachers
contemplating transfer. Class size in these schools has been cut down and extra
teachers and other teaching personnel have been added. The question of in-
centives merits further consideration. Professional people, who do not labor
for bread alone, may appreciate some recognition of unusual service.
Parent education
There is no denying the fact that the one most important influence upon the
growing child is that of his parents. It seems to me, however, that much of
the criticism attributing to parents responsibility for juvenile delinquency is
essentially uncharitable. Now we have on the statute books laws making adults,
and parents in particular, answerable for offenses of minors in cases where the
part played by the adult is clearly demonstrable. What is to be said, however,
of the extent of general responsibility on the part of people who were themselves
reared under the most bitter conditions: who as children, and subsequently as
adults, have found themselves alone in what has seemed an essentially indiffer-
ent, even hostile and exploitative world. How sharply and righteously have we
a right to criticize parents who were themselves beaten unjustly, parents who
have known at first hand what is means to feel shut out and alone. Some will
respond to such deprivations with special efforts to assure a richer life, a warmer
world for their children ; some will take it out on a child if he's the only helpless
person at hand ; and some will feel that their children by hook or crook will
achieve adulthood after all, as they themselves have done.
Perhaps these obervations seem far afield from the traditional parent educa-
tion references to toilet training and the size of a child's allowance, and the age
at which a girl should be given the money for her first "formal." But i>erhaps,
instead, they point to some new directions in parent education — to parents who
are still "learning the ropes" of metropolitan living, parents whose aspirations
for their children may be no less poignant for all their inarticulateness.
Perhaps, there has been much talk of parental incompetence and neglect. Our
city over the decades has known many who have failed their children not out of
malice or indifference but because they did not know the new ways — or were too
troubled getting acquainted with a new land and a new way of life. Today,
we can make the getting acquainted easier, and today, for the old-timers, too,
we can oi>en the door to help. To seek counsel, especially the counsel of one's
own neighbors, need imply no confession of failure.
Sometimes I think public attitudes toward juvenile deliquency today have
that embarrassed quality that characterized the approach to tuberculosis at
the turn of the century. Juvenile deliquency, like scarlet fever, is a disorder
of children — whether there will be complications depends to a fair extent on
how the case is treated. And attitudes in the liomes are decisive in making the
vital decisions as to handling.^^
Our board of education has projected a little demonstration through the even-
ing centers operating in more and more of our schools. Their plan is not for
formal lectures, but rather along lines of the friendly discussion group. I
^■^ The forp.coinj;: by no means is intended to neglect the problems raised by a certain
number of truly irresponsible individuals who have simply ignored their children.
24 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
haven't asked, but perhaps members will chip in so there'll be coffee, too. I
susgest also, that experience has demonstrated that some parents who shy away
from "a discussion group" will feel more free to chat in a sewing class or furni-
ture repair project. As these are oftentimes precisely those we are most
anxious to reach, I trust that those responsible for the program will plan im-
aginatively with this in mind.
This type of enterprise is deserving of the most highly qualified leadership.
Dr. Jansen assures me that while funds will not permit overly attractive pay-
ment for such service, the schools will welcome capable and experienced people
in our city, not presently on the teaching staff, who would be qualified for
part-time employment on this project.
The board of education's budget request for parent education was $19,000.
This sum was a mere 1% percent of the total community and recreation centers
budget request. Salaries to leaders in the sports program were budgeted at a
sum 27 times as large.
The fact that this type of parent education is a new program in the schools
need not, I believe, necessitate such a creaklngly slow start. Parent discussion
groups may be an experiment for the bureau of community education, but work
along these lines has been carried on successfully elsewhere for many years.
There is a real reservoir of experience to draw upon.-*
I therefore recommend as a minimum that a worker with imrents be added
to the staff of every single one of the S7 evening community and recreation
centers in areas designated by the youth board as high delinquency neighbor-
hoods. These people should be retained for a sutficient number of sessions per
week to allow them adequate time to plan their material and to make occasional
necessary visits to homes and community agencies. And the emphasis should
be on continuity of service and specialist personnel ; this will probably necessi-
tate recruitment of the larger propoi'tion of these discussion leaders from out-
side the schools, according to procedures already in effect.
If such personnel were added to the program t)f the centers in the 14 youth
board special sei-\'ice neighborhoods only, no more than 87 people would be
needed. To employ 268 parent education teachers on the same basis in evei'y
such center in the city, would cost approximately $195,000.
I recommend that this program be financed by a special appropnation to the
youth board, but be operated b.v the bureau of comnmnity education. Following
already tested operating practices, the youth board would develop personnel
specifications as a guide to the bureau of community education in the recruitment
of personnel.
I further recommend providing adequate consiiltant-supervisor-trainer person-
nel for the professional leaders of the parent groups. Even skilled people are
going to need counsel themselves in carrying out any program that really gets
into basic problems of parents. I believe that we should make it possible for
such a coordinator to have a conference once a month with each one of the
parent group workers. Two full-time coordinators ($1,3,900 per annum total)
might provide sufficient consultation service for 87 group workers if onlj' the
schools in youth board service areas where served ; to provide adequate consul-
tation services for leaders of groups in all the schools involved would require
about six more full-time coordinators. It is absolutely essential that we provide
for supervisors specifically detailed to this project.
The expanded operation projected here would in no wise affect the parent
education experiment in the amount of $19,000 per annum proposed by the board
of education as part of the regular program of the Bureau of Community Educa-
tion.
In connection with the well-baby clinic program of the health department, our
city has obtained the services of an internationally recognized authority on
children's behavior." This gifted physician, sitting in with regular clinic staff,
talks over everyday problems with mothers and children, making a real contri-
bution in forestalling habit problems, tension, and anxiety at an early age.
In training pediatricians to serve along these lines, we are erecting a first line
of defense against delinquency, as well as against persimal maladjustment and
unhappiness. Services to a cross-section population of normal babies and their
mothers now, may save untold thousands in services to the abnormal a few years
hence.
I am therefore recommending that $17,0fM) be allotted the health department
to institute service along these lines as part of its program in two additional
2* This would include, of course, the rich experience of our parent-teacher associations.
*5 Dr. David Levy.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 25
neighborhoods. The districts serve<l will both lie within youth board service
areas and the population served will be a real cross section of our youngest
children's i)arents, getting advice when it can do the most good — before delin-
quency becomes a problem. I hope that our mental health board will give further
expansion of this project top priority among those to be considered in its plaus
later this year.
Already underway, also in our heath department, is a parent education pro-
gram, employing informal discussion groups. Especially trained personnel lead
the sessions, and parents have an opportunity to reconsider their own problems
in the friendly light of neighbors' shared experience.
I believe that this work should t>e expanded, with the understanding that
the discussion group leaders be qualified to plan programs covering all aspects
of the child-rearing process. All parents can profit by this counsel ; all children
are entitled to the benefits of this service. Through the health department, we
are in a position to extend this help to parents who are already coming periodi-
cally for other services. I therefore recommend that the youth board be granted
$20,000 enabling the health department to extend this service in those youth
board .service areas where it is not presently operating. (I might add that a
number of the community's .social work agencies have projects along similar lines,
which they will wish to expand as private benefactors make funds available.)
The co-op program and guidance in the schools
A major problem related to juvenile delinquency centers about the compulsory
education law, and the school-leaving age. Some have suggested that boys who
seem uninterested in school and are always getting into trouble there "get out
and get a job." ^^
It seems to me that we have a long way to go in making adequate provision for
such difficult students within the school before we write them off as a bad lot.
The school authorities have a real problem in maintaining discipline so that
teaching can go on. The number of troublemakers is not large and our teachers
have every right to expect connnunity support in dealing with them. Aliout
this, let there be no mistake. We must recognize that not only law and order,
but the rights of the great majority of students — those who can get along—
are at stake here.
Those who feel that delinquents and potential delinquents in our schools should
be turned out on the street "to find a job" may be interested in the facts to date.
A large statewide study in California disclosed that four times as many
dropouts as graduates were still looking for work. The same study showed
6 out of 10 of school dropouts were children of unskilled or semiskilled laborers ;
yet workers in these categories make up nowhere near that large a proportion
of the population. The problem is clear : it is a basic American principle that
children have an eqiaal chance at education, regardless of their parents' circum-
stances. Yet it seems that there is a differential when w^e look to see for whom
the schools have made themselves attractive. (It should l>e noted here that
there is real question as to ineducability being a substantial ccmsideration for
any large proportion of these dropouts).
It should be noted also that children leave school because they're "fed up" or
feel they'd enjoy working more. In the majority of cases, the reasons for leav-
ing school are not financial. Follow up studies show that dropouts very rarely
get any schooling subsequently, and that more find themselves in "deadend" jobs.
In the Glueck's recent delinquency study, it was found that while a good majority
of both the delinquents and nondelinquents worked, three times as many non-
delinquents were employed on supervised jobs or in factories. And more of the
delinquents were working (unsupervised, of course) in street trades.
I wonder how many who advocate getting the older, slower student out of
school have thought about where he would land afterward, about placement
on the right kind of job. or the contrast between superivsion (of sorts at least)
in school and the possibility of no supervision at all on the outside.
Are we to retreat from the ground the British can only now contemplate
achieving? D. Archibald, writing from London declares "one of the best
methods of preventing delinquency is to keep children witliin the framework
of a good educational system during the most restless adolescent years" — to 36.
We have a responsibility to try to help the youngster who seems bent on
throwing away his right to an education. He is still a juvenile; we cannot say
2" There may be some point to amending the provisions of the statute sotting up con-
tinuation schools, to allow greater flexibility in the plannins of extended school services for
young workers. But the schools must continue their guidance role.
26 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
to him, "If you choose to neglect your education, it is no one's concern but your
own." Consideration must be given to the vitality of the curriculum offered,
and to teacher attitudes toward the slow learner. I know these are areas where
my concern is shared by the administrators of our school system, and many
who are classroom teachers. Until we have made the broadest guidance
programs and real flexibility of curriculum available to "misfits" there would
seem to be no call for basically revising our compulsory attendance law. I
have yet to be persuaded that the children who would in consequence be be-
yond the reach of school services would find themselves on the road to better
citizenship.
Over a period of years, a program has been developed within our high schools
to provide an opportunity for selected students to complete their studies "' while
employed in private industry halftime, at prevailing wages. Last year 4,000
students were enrolled in this co-op program in 33 high schools ; they worked
at beauty culture, as salesmen, as typists, in machine shops, in ofiices, and in
scores. It is time to move this experiment out of the experimental class ; 40
years have demonstrated its worth.^ The time has come to extend this cur-
riculum to more students ; perhaps the selection process has been just a little
too fine.
Counseling in the schools. — A common observation by delinquency researchers
is the need for more effective counseling, especially vocational counseling, for
young people. Youths graduating or dropping out of high school are too often
vague as to their employment plans and frequently seem to bring little to a
prospective employer. If the co-op program is to be expanded, there must be a
more thorough going guidance operation, as well.
There are today 1,765 teachers doing guidance work in the schools ; of these,
only S2 are licensed counselors. The 82 put in full time on the guidance .lob ;
63 other teachers with a varied background of experience are also detailed to
guidance full time. Thus, over 90 percent of the personnel engaged in guidance
have to fit it into a program which makes other demands on their time — most
of tliem put in the equivalent of 1 day a week in this work. It has been esti-
mated that the amount of time available for counseling averages out to less
than 5 minutes per student per school year in the high schools.
It is to be hoped that ways will be found to add a larger number of specially
qualified full-time people to help with this vital responsibility.
Youth boai-d in-service training
The youth board is again appealing for a pitifully small grant so that it
can set up a thoroughgoing training program, not only for its own staff but also
for other city departments which have requested help for their workers in the
areas where youth board is exi>ert. Every dollar spent for training, it is clear,
multiplies itself by making it possible to do more of a job with the same number
of people.
The kind of work the youth board is carrying on requires the best. To assign
it a task and then hold back on the wherewithal for performing the task effec-
tively is false economy.
The in-sei'vice training-program request is for $38,000. That hardly seems
like much of a training program for so large a staff, but that is the youth board's
best judgment. Whatever objections there may have been to this enterprise in
the past, I can see no point in niggardliness today. I heartily endorse this
request as a top-priority program.
Fellowship study program : Some provision must be made to support tlie efforts
of workers in certain strategic programs to obtain the special professional train-
ing needed for most effective preformance on their jobs.""
This problem is especially acute in the case of positions where social work skills
are involved, as the training program in that field, as in medicine, makes a period
of full-time field experience mandatory. The schools of social work have shown
some willingness to credit adequately supervised paid experience with the city in
lieu of the customary field work, but these plans need further development.
In any event, it must be recognized that there are city workers who need special
training involving something more than an evening or two a week of their own
time. They are deserving of public support. Our educational leave jrolicy is in
2' Only 1 percent of co-op students drop out.
^ Some iidditions to central office staff, and sufficient funds to permit co-op supervisors
in the various hia;h schools to devote full time to this work would add some $90,000 to
the cost of tlie program.
™ We now allow welfare about one-sixth the training period budgeted for police.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 27
crying need of review ; every possible help must be provided career people seeking
special training in order to do a better job. The obstacles in the way of a liber-
alized educational leave program must be swept aside, in the interest of better
services to children in trouble.^"
Planning and coordination
Planning and coordination of programs in the juvenile delinquency field involves
close operating relationships with many city departments and a multitude of
private agencies. The New York City Youth Board has for some years now been
charged with this responsibility. There is every reason for continuing to lodge
the function with that body.
However, I believe the youth board might well give consideration to placing
greater emphasis upon its role in planning. To date a very large proportion of
its energies has gone into program development and liaison with contract agencies.
Someone has got to be given the time to step back and take the long view.
Progress in this direction has been pretty well limited to some examination of
the youth board's own programs. Much more of a commitment to this work
area is urgently needed. Head counting is important, but more is needed for
planning than merely data on fluctuations in the volume of delinquency.
The makeup of the youth board itself should exemplify the breadth to be
encompassed in the coordination of operations. Workers in the field can be-
come better acquainted, and leadership in all departments can reach beyond
particularized interests to a common understanding of the integration of
services we need. Despite some years' endeavor, there are problems still to
be grappled with. Given good will, cool heads, and deployment of enough crit-
ical brainpower at the center, there is a good chance of a well-rounded, effective
battery of programs.
In addition to a broadened research perspective, I therefore believe the youth
board needs a small unit of full-time experts who can bring various special
skills to the problems of coordination and long-range planning. This team would
be responsible for smoothing working relationships with other agencies and for
the development of overall operations plans with the youth board members and
executive director. It would be well to involve in planning the chiefs of the
board's operating divisions, and perhaps private agency representatives as well.
But the pressing need is for additional personnel who can look beyond day-
to-day problems and have no direct responsibility for operations, no connnit-
ment to a particular aspect of today's problem.
The planning unit, including a director, and senior analysts who would rank
with the present casework, recreation and group work, and research chiefs,
should report quarterly directly to the board. Its responsibilities should center
about the need for communitywide coordination of service programs; opera-
tions being carried on by the youth board directly should not be its primary
concern.^^
Evaluation. — Reasonable assumptions rather than established facts must pro-
vide the justification for most of our programs in this field today. But for long-
range planning, reasonable assumptions simply will not sufiice. A scientific fact-
finding and assessment program is called for.
Operations costing in the neighborhod of $25 million are in a pretty expensive
neighborhood. We want to know, as we move ahead, which ones work and
which do not. And we want to know which programs are the more effective
among those which really do work.
For all this, we need a factfinding group not attached to any particular pro-
gram but in a position to work freely with all.
I believe the most suitable location for this assessment operation is not only
outside the field agencies but outside the city government itself. The research
people should be free to carry through scientific studies of our best efforts, with-
out any possibility of political interference. The place for such a project is in
an institution of learning and President Gallagher, of the City College, has indl-
^ The cost of this prosrnm will depend upon whether salary is granted workers awav on
educational leave. Perhaps $30,000 would suffice for a year's demonstration. Note that
new State legislation will provide help to probation officers. Money is still neded, however,
in other fields.
31 The cost of a unit comprised of 7 professionals and 3 secretaries would be about
$82,000 per annum. With youth board budget projections at levels of $4 to .?5 million, this
hardly seems a great sum to put into planning. It must also be remembered that tlie
planning will he with reference to programs in the entire community, not merelv in the
youth board.
65263—55 3
28 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
cated a willingness to provide a home for the evaluation team ; this is in line
with the interest this college has already demonstrated through action projects
in our field. Among these, I might mention the college's community service
division.
To carry through the task effectively will require the services of a person
witli rank equivalent to a full professor as director ; proper staffing would prob-
ably call for an associate professor, 2 assistant professors, and 10 research asso-
ciates— plus clerical personnel. The assessment unit would not need to be fully
staffed until perhaps a year after it got underway, but the key people in par-
ticular should be recruited at the outset, and for a period of time long enough
to assure a coherent operation. The project should be clearly understood as of
a temporary character. It seems to me we should plan on a 5-year basis, and
should allow flexibility so that certain personnel could be retained for special
studies, even of a relatively brief sort.
The entire factfinding operation will be carried out by specially trained and
experienced people who have no special axe to srind and are beholden to no
particular agency. They should have the freest access to any city project
which affects juvenile delinquency.^" I believe that private agencies, too. will
respond positively to an invitation to cooperate.
Welfare and civic leaders, as well as certain strategically situated civil
servants can play an important role in helping orient this work. A group of
such people is well-nigh indispensable in helping prepare the ground for the
action-research team. But we would want to have a clear understanding from
the outset, that the researchers would be free from any outside control.
The senior personnel for this work will be soiight in a nationwide canvass
of the most promising prospects. Dr. Gallagher believes he could be in a posi-
tion at an early date to submit names to the mayor for endorsement. This
would enable us to get underway without losing a whole academic year because
of key personnel having made other commitments.
It should be emphasized that what will be sought is topnotch scholars who
have already demonstrated a capacity to carry out action research. This can-
not be a center for theoretical or basic studies.
Without committing the college in advance to any particular design in bal-
ancing the research team. I believe we would do well to bear in mind that the
problem we are attemping to solve is in its largest aspects a social, not a
purely clinical problem. The techniques we emplo.v in the prevention and
treatment of juvenile delinquency certainly include clinical techniques. But
the problem in evaluating a proper balance among programs is a problem
calling primarily for a social scientist with a strong rest^arch background.
In addition to personnel with sociological skills, experts with capacities along
psychiatric, psychological, social work, and statistical lines (for example) are
all indispensable. I believe it should be possible, in every instance, to find
for this work people who have skills and a deep appreciation of more than
a single one of these fields. This job is a tough one, and not for the narrow
specialist ; the team approach has got to be an agreed-upon foundation before
we can even think of getting started.
I believe that an effective factfinding program will save us hundreds of
thousands of dollars yearly, by making clear just whicli programs in the delin-
quency field are actually carrying out fi'uitful operation.s. A centralized assess-
ment project will make valid comparisons possible and enable us to plan tieing
together the impact of programs under diversified auspices. A centralized
research operation should also prove more economical in meeting the need for
new information as indicated above.''
The $95,000 i>er annum this research program would cost when it got fully
underway is a small amount indeed, if we bear in mind the magnitude of the
sums (perhaps $25 million) expended upon all our operational programs. Any
well-run enterprise in the business field would consider this small allocation
for factfinding and quality control, a very minimum level, indeed.
In addition to the 10 priority programs which I have recommended for imme-
diate attention, there are a number of others meriting the most serious con-
sideration. Some touch upon operations on which I wish to inform myself
more fully ; I, therefore, merely make mention of them at this time, by way of
preface to future reports.
32 This nilsht bp promoted by providing for some continuity in the research personnel
assisrnprt to this or that operatinjr prosrani.
^^ There will still be a need for the research work presently going on in the New York
City Youth Board, for example.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 29
In this section, also, I am touching briefly upon a few projects to which
I wish to lend a hearty endorsement as proper areas for the initiative of private
individuals and agencies. The city, in the last analysis, can carry only so
much of the load. Private social agencies, service clubs, philanthropists, founda-
tions, individual citizens have all played an historic role in coping with the
community's welfare problems. To meet the challenge of juvenile delinquency
will require the mobilization of all of our resources. The good work already
being carried on must be extended even further. This is a challenge to every
New Yorker, according to his personal resources of skill and of money. In
addition to the small number of areas I enlarge upon briefly here, appendix
III lists some two dozen projects, large and small, which should prove of
interest.
To these I wish to add the great contribution employers can make in planning
for part-time employment by youth in commerce and industry. Many of the
largest department stores, offices, and factories in our city are partners in the
board of education's co-op program, but more job opportunities are needed.
In addition, the law permits work on the widest variety of jobs on a part-time
basis even by students not reached by tlie co-op program. I cannot place too
great an emphasis upon the value of socially useful, properly paid work under
conditions not detrimental to juvenile health and morals. This is an area where
concern about delinquency can be translated into action — to the mutual advan-
tage of the youth, the employer, the school, and the community at large.
RECOMMENDED PROGRAMS AND PROJECTS FOR FUTURE STUDY
Neighborhood civic organization
In a munber of cities experiments in the development of grassroots civic devel-
opment associations are pointing a way to real progress toward meeting the
challenge of juvenile delinquency, along with a number of other long-standing
social problems. This is a job to be carried on, in the last analysis, by the
neighbors themselves, although outside help can play a constructive role.
In his first annual report, our mayor pointed out that in "any given area of
the city the number of oldtime families who have struck deep roots in the
neighborhood is relatively small. It is for that reason that special efforts must
be exerted to develop citizen participation in the various neighborhoods through-
out the city."
It is simply not possible to put too much emphasis upon the potentials of
activity along these lines. In high-delinquency areas in particular such civic
groups have an invaluable part to play in overall welfare planning and in
encouraging constructive social action on the part of youth. A constructive
social action on the part of adults, by the way, would be seeking employment
in the police department's expanded street-crossing guard program. This work
is something that any reasonably intelligent and responsible person mipfht under-
take, and I know Mr. Adams would welcome inquiries from neighborhood people
desiring to qualify for this part-time employment.
It is my opinion that community organization projects are most appropriately
developed under independent auspices ; city officials and workers in a number
of departments may quite appropriately be involved in auxiliary capacities, or
in their own right, personally, as citizens. But the type of citizen effort the
mayor and other forward-looking community leaders envision should be com-
pletely free of any hazard of official domination.
Neighborhood civic associations planned as membership organizations would
play a role essentially different from that undertaken by the mayor's community
advisory boards, whose members serve by appointment. Civic associations
serve a complementary purpose.
As people in our several neighborhoods evolve organizational forms appro-
priate to their own needs, and bring forward articulate, dedicated, responsible
leadership, the whole city will be the gainer. And our own job in planning com-
mon services will be facilitated immeasurably.
I am sure that as this initiative develops, a multitude of opportunities will be
presented for city agencies to prove helpful. This is a fine prospect to look ahead
to. And for the time being, a great challenge to New Yorkers to work with New
Yorkers — and, perhaps, for those who have funds or know-how to lend a hand
to those who may just now be making a beginning.
Time-honored procedures and regulations are reexamined in times of crises.
Enlightened self-interest can be nicely blended with a sense of responsibility to
the larger community. It is to be hoped that New Yorkers are moving toward
the sharing of facilities jealously guarded for good reason over the years.
30 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Columbia University, for example, last year for the first time opened Baker
Field to an outside group. Their generosity made possible the development of
a teen-age baseball league in this neighborhood, where there is a high hazard of
youngsters becoming delinquent.
Our public schools are doing a fine job in opening their doors for a wide variety
of projects. In the coming year, this will be the ease more than ever before.
Doubtles there are other buildings in our neighborhoods which may be put at the
disposal of the community at large during idle hours. Perhaps there will be
those among our church and synagogue leaders who will come forward at this
time to offer facilities on a nondenominational basis for communal enterprises.
A number of fine examples have been set already.
Those charged with pastoral responsibilities can render a real service to the
entire community by making space for wholesome, nonsectarian recreation pro-
grams available to all youth, as well as those they number in their own llock.
Surely there is no nobler proof of a belief that all men are brothers, than this
practical sort of felowship. There are many who fee forsaken, many lolling on
stoops or crowded on a bleak corner under the lamppost who would resjwnd to
Jin opportunity to participate in a vital leisure-time program under imaginative
leadership.
Role of the school
The schools can make significant contributions to the solution of the delin-
fiuency problem in a variety of ways. I have discussed a number of special pro-
grams at various points in this report. But most important is the opportunity
afforded the day-to-day classroom teacher.
The challenge is not to be a substitute parent, a substitute psychiatrist or a
substitute policeman. The challenge is to motivate learning, never to cease
trying to capture the elusive imagination of the growing child. This is what we
mean by "helping open the doors of the world." The challenge to the teacher is
to teach — hopefully, to teach from a loving henrt; but, in any event, really to
teach.
"Many learnings occur simultaneously * * * The teacher who knows the
children under his care can do much by using the total learning situation to help
the child with disturbed conditions of life. The attainment of this end requires
no abstruse knowledge or newly discovered techniques ; the teacher who is fair-
minded, sympathetic, emotionally reliable, who has concern for the development
of healthy personality in his pupils, and who is skilled in teaching, helps to
diminish the dissatisfactions that lead to maladjustment. Nothing is gained by
describing his work as group therapy."
Of recent years, there have been a growing number of indications of lowered
morale among teachers in our public schools. The reasons for discontent are
varied, and it may be that some of the teachers' wishes cannot be met.
A crucial problem was raised by Superintendent Jansen at the time of the
school budget bearings. "The teenager in our present high-tension world is in
great need for closer contact with his teachers that can only come when the
class size is considerably reduced." This, of course, is equally true of the needs
of preteens. I shall have to refrain from making any specific recommendations
here, because the magnitude of the sums involved puts this program outside the
budgetary limitations of the present enterprise.
After the parent, no c)ne, probal)ly, has a greater influence upon the growing
child than his teachers. To the child maturing in a setting replete with delin-
quency hazard, the teacher is in an especially strategic position to be of help.
The lioard of education has provided real leadership through such special
]n-ogranis as those in the all day neighborhood schools, the play schools, and
the bureau of comnnmity education. Much that is helpful proceeds from 110
Livingston Street, by way of curriculum materials and other publications.
But to some, the very size of the public school system seems to militate against
the free flow of ideas from the classroom teacher back to the administration.
There is real need for experimentation with devices to bring classroom opinion
more directly to bear upon central planning. Just what methods will prove
most effective in attaining that end, I leave, at this time, to the schoolmen.'*
^' Thp informnl wppkly confpvfnop.'^ board of Pflnpatlon President Charles H. Silver has
been holding witli groups of principals, certainly seem a positive contribution. An extension
of this program to include groups composed exclusively of classroom teachers has been
reported under consideration. I am sure such discussions would prove worthwhile for all
concerned.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 31
The spark of interest, the warm flame of dedication, are an indispensable part
of teaching. Children who spend their days with teachers who are serving
time, are qnick to sense that fact. Disillusionment with school is generally
recognized as playing an important part in the development of delinquent pat-
terns. Any contribution the administration can make to reviving a flagging
teacher morale, will prove a real blow against juvenile delinquency. And the
community at large can do more to demonstrate the high regard in which it
holds those who have dedicated a lifetime of service to this honored calling.
Truancy
Unexcused absence from school is far and awa.v the most frequent of all
delinquencies. And truancy not uncommonly proves to have been the first im-
portant misstep if we examine the personal history of a hardened criminal.
If it were possible to do something for children who have not yet come in
major conflict with the law at the time they first start to truant, many delinquent
careers might be nipped in the bud. The bureau of attendance of our school
system has a large staff engaged, among other things, in investigating all unex-
plained absences of more than a few days. As it happens, in 7 investigations
out of 10, the absence proves to have been "lawful;" only 21 percent of the
investigated absences turn out to be "trunacies." ^^ Focussing upon making a
very large number of investigations means that it is only possible to si)end a
limited amount of time looking into any particular case ; I believe there is a real
need for deployment of personnel under revised procedures more likely to result
in intensive work-up of the small proportion of cases needing long-term service.^"
Our attendance officers should have a real opportunity to help children who
are drifting^before they drift too far and in the wrong direction. "By definition,
truancy implies that school is an unsatisfactoiy experience." To what extent
are our attendance officers in a position to help children achieve a more satisfac-
tory experience in the schools? Is there opportunity for intensive followup with
the child, his parents, his classroom teacher — in that crucial fraction of cases
where the pattern is not yet set? Is it possible, for example, to give special
attention to the relatively small proportion of truants in the second and third
grades, say, who may be just commencing to experiment in delinquency? Or is
the emphasis uix)n maintaining a certain volume of completed investigations for
accounting purposes in connection with State aid ? "
"The normal truant belongs in the group of those who resist school because
of boredom. Perhaps at one time or another it has included all of us, for it
is in the nature of living to resist conformity, routine, rigid rules, and to seek
variety and creativity, using freedom to explore at the unfettered dictates of the
will.
"When rules are avoided by a few, control over the group is threatened. These
children challenge the imagination of teachers and school administrators. Giv-
ing them enriched programs and understanding and wise counsel is usually
the best answer. Labeling them "truants" or "delinquents" is as fruitless as it is
dangerous. Individual treatment is best for them as well as for the morale
of the school."
The attendance officer can be a key man in the team approach to delinquency.
The "600" schools
A few years ago an experiment was undertaken by the board of educa-
tion to provide special opportunities for grade-school students presenting dis-
ciplinary problems in the regular school. Teachers in the special schools are
paid additional salary, but on the whole cannot be regarded as specialist per-
sonnel. The selection process is designed to secure experienced teachers who
have deaionstrated a capacity to work with problem youngsters. But the
additional training demanded is essentially minimal, and questions have been
raised as to the real value of this isolation program, which now costs more
than $1 million per annum for salaries alone.
A thoroughgoing assessment of the operation has yet to be undertaken, and
while there are unquestionably positive aspects, the public is entitled to some
real facts as to the value of the program as reflected in the subsequent careers of
graduates. I feel that plans for high schools of the same sort, as well as
similar schools for girls, should be held in abeyance. Some concerted fact-
^ Most of the remainder are children unlawfully detained by parents or guardians to-
gether with a scattering of children unlawfuhy employed.
^ Last year there were no less than 376,000 separate investigations.
^^ My concern is that a maximum of attention be turned to counselling. I am not
suggesting that investigation of absences, as required by law, be abandoned.
32 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
finding is in order, and it is my hope tliat a study wmmittee Superintendent
Jansen will soon appoint will include not only board of education personnel but
experts from outside the school system and consultants suggested by interested
civic grouiis, as well.
The Bureau of Child Guidance
This essential service in our schools is being enlarged during the coming year,
as additional psychiatrist-psychologist-socialworker teams are activated. Dr.
Jansen is presently working on plans for certain improvements in the operation,
in the light of an extensive study only recently completed. This ambitious
survey (made posible by the joint effort of our board of education, the Field
Foundation, the New York Fund for Children, and the New York Foundation)
offers a real point of departure for enlightened planning. I shall put off making
any recommendations about this bureau while the survey report is till being
studied.
Recreation programs
The bureau of community education in our public schools, under the able
leadership of Mark McCloskey (who now heads the New York State Youth Com-
mission) has done a notable job in providing extended recreation services in
some 288 schools. The bureau in recent years has been able to employ full-time
center directors, thanks to grants from the New York City Youth Board, and, for
the first time, professionally trained group workers as well.
The increase in budget recommended for this operation in the new year should
make possible a major extension of operations. I trust that these funds will
include provisions for a larger staff at the citywide level. There also is need for
a pool of supervisory personnel who will be at the disposition of the acting head
of the bureau, so that manpower can he deployed from one school district to
another with a minimum of redtape. I believe, too, that consideration ought to
be given the possibility of putting two-man teams into schools which have on
their own initiative already developed community programs. These activities
should not be confined to plants which have full-scale comprehensive programs
only.
Our school buildings, meeting rooms, swimming pools, auditoriums, gyms, and
playgrounds should increasingly be made available on a 7-day-per-week basis,
with a lai'icer volume of evening operations, as well. This is a tried-and-tested
program meriting all possible expansion, substantially along present lines.
The special contribution of group work. — In all our recreation programs, in-
cluding those in the schools, I should like to call attention to the importance of
including group work as well as the customary crafts, dramatics, and sports.
There are real benefits by way of personal growth and guidance which are likely
to be achieved only in the club setting, among groups of perhaps only 12 to 20
people. Group workers who have, si>ecial skills in the field of interpersonal
relations are as indispensable to a balanced leisure-time program as athletic
coaches or activity instructors. In recruitment of personnel, an effort, I believe,
should be made to reach leaders who have demonstrated interest, understanding,
and ability in the family and the neighborhood approaches to this work.^
School-building dcsif/n. — In planning school buildings for the future, we should
continue to incorporate in the design opportunities for extended community serv-
ice programs. Plants should provide facilities suitable for crafts shops and club
meeting rooms. Auditorium, etc., are already being designed so that access is
possible without an entire school building's being thrown open. These details
are simple, but crucial. There is not reason why the city should invest millions
in special plant for recreation while facilities are at hand or could be at hand
in the schools.
Weekend, holiday programing. — The city is taking positive measures to insure
its various youth programs remaining in operation 7 days a week to an increas-
ing degree. Where overtime costs have to be met, they are being budgeted.
Private agencies naturally determine their own operating policies, but in view of
an impressive weight of expert opinion, I would hope they would consider serious-
ly the provision of more weekend and holiday programs.^'
^* Those activities staffed with 1 leader for every 12 to 20 people are obviously more
expensive (on a per capita basis) than those in which a sinsle leader worlds with 100
peoide. A well-balanced proarram will include both clubs and square dancing, say. There
is an important place for both kinds of leaders.
.30 Agencies in the case work and guidance fields might also give the most serious con-
sideration to the need for scheduling standby staff and instituting a greater volume of
service during hours when prospective clients are likeliest to be away from their jobs or
household duties.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
33
AFTERNOON PLAYGROUNDS, EVENING COMMUNITY CENTERS
IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS
* COUMLTNlTV CCNTtR
A COMMUNITY CCNTCn. NYC YOyTVt 60ARD fUNQS
■ AriER- SCHOOL PLAYGROUND
• PLAVCftOUNO ANO CENTCR
4 PLAYGROUND AND CCnTCR,
NYC YOUTH ea<^RD ruNDS
34 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Adve7iture playgrounds
In recent years, there has been a growing body of opinion in the recreation
field calling for a new approach to playgrounds and playground programs. In
virtually erupty lots, practically devoid of apparatus, highly successful pro-
grams have been developed in Copenhagen, Denmark, in London, in Ken-
sington, in Crawley, England, and in Minneapolis, for example, in our own
country. It appears that children welcome the opportunity to use tools to con-
struct their own playhouses — that attendance at such playgrounds is continuous
and high. And it is reported the police find a marked decline in so-called delin-
quency; playground personnel report fewer accidents (115).
I believe that serious consideration should be given both to the "junk play-
ground" and to playgrounds employing apparatus of a new type. These latter
are designed to provide more opportunities tor free and dramatic play, new
op[)ortunities for grcmp play of a highly informal character. This is not to say
that the free-for-all is an ideal recreation program, but experience has shown
that, given the chance, children can work out games of their own which may
prove even more enjoyable than the traditional swings or ball diamonds. And
in Philadelphia, for example, children who otherwise stay away, seem drawn to
projects of this type. While the new kinds of apparatus have, in some cases,
proved more expensive, increased attendance has more than justified the expen-
diture.
New Yorkers will soon have an opportunity to get an idea of the sort of ad-
vantages enjoyed by children in Oakland, Calif., Boiceville N. Y., and in Fort
Wayne, Ind. When it opens, public school 130 in the Bronx will have as part of
its playground plant the first and third prize items from last year's national com-
petition for new designs in play sculpture ; officials of the National Recreation
Association and the Museum of Modern Art were among the judges.
Certain illegal activities, like hitching a ride on the back of a bus, seem to
provide an excitement with which playgrounds and recreation programs of a
cut and dried character don't seem to be able to compete. There is a kind
of thrill, I suppose, in breaking the law ; that is a thrill we cannot permit. But
surely we have an obligation seriously to consider every sort of project and pro-
gram that bears promise of meeting that very human desire for a safe scare, a
limited habard. After all. not every child who may want to gets the chance to
spend a day at Coney Island.
Problems of preschool-age children
At a later date I wish to report on the importance of some recent researches
dealing with healthy infants confined in institutions or hospitals away from
their parents for long periods while still of very tender age. It seems that a child
who misses out on some really close and personalized affection in his first year
or two is pretty likely to turn out to be an emotional cripple. This extremely
small segment of our ijopulation has produced a disproportionately large number
of criminals and maladjusted individuals. Certainly, we already know enough
to endorse most vigorously the endeavors of welfare workers seeking foster care
in private homes for all homeless well infants.
Both the health department and the hospitals department have called my
attention to the fact that considerable sums are being expended to maintain com-
pletely healthy but homeless babies in our hospitals because of lack of facilities
for foster home care.^ It is nothing short of fantastic to contemplate the pros-
pect of helpless infants being institutionalized for lengthy periods simply because
we have been lax in making adequate appropriations for personnel who could
arrange for care in homes. Yet the latter course would not only be the more
humane, but would cost the city far less money.
An important welfare department program which will be discussed in the
above mentioned report provides for 1,000 dependent children who cannot be
cared for in their own homes. The problem is especially pressing in the case of
children from certain minority groups — doubly so for older children, whom
prospective foster parents often feel are "less attractive." The Children's Shelter
is dangerously overcrowded, yet the bottleneck in the foster home field has still
to be broken ; capable professionals are needed for a home-finding program.
Of all this, more at another time.
''° In addition there are children who could be returned to their own homes if certain
si>ecial services (more part-time "homemakers" for example) were available.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 35
Welfare Department
The staff of our welfare department come in contact with numbers of families
whose children are in high hazard of becoming delinquents. While such fam-
ilies represent only a small fraction of the total number of children who receive
service from the department, it is important that every effort be made to use the
regular contacts to advantage. The city funds expended for DW staff who work
with families must be sufl5cient to employ workers with skill to recognize the
danger signals of strain and maladjustment in children and in families which
require treatment and to take the necessary steps to help these families. These
woi'kers must also have the ability to recognize which problems can be treated
by the department and those which require the help of other public and private
social agencies within the community.
The special program this department has been operating jointly with the
youth board has provided a real idea of what can be done by competent social
workers, assigned caseloads of reasonable size. Inasmuch as the services for
families and children is in the process of reorganization, I am at this time
deferring specific recommendations with reference to the welfare department's
role
The pilot study recently initiated by this department which provides pre-
ventive service on an intensive basis to certain children in public-assistance
families has also demonstrated what can be accomijlished by competent child-
welfare workers.
In concluding this section, mention should be made of an important welfare
demonstration just a few years ago. An attempt was made to bring together,
under one roof, a staff that included health, counseling, employment, housing,
relief, legal, and recreation specialists. A neighbor in need could come to this
center and employ the skills of a whole battery of experts working together in
rooms just across the hall from one another. The person in trouble didn't find
himself shuttling all over town and spending a couple of weeks getting help
from half a dozen different organizations.
The experiment to which I have referred was not a project of the welfare
department ; the department merely was one of the participating agencies.
But I know how enthusiastically Welfare Commissioner McCarthy responded
to this opportunity. I believe that a program along the indicated lines can be
a sound one ; we should muster the necessary forces once again.
Service opportunities for youth
There is good reason to believe that contributory to juvenile delinquency
in many cases are feelings of fear and hatred toward adults, a sense of being
divorced from society (or at least from the adult community), and a pervasive
personal insecurity in many vital aspects of the life of a youth. Programs
oriented to the changing of these attitudes would seem likely to make significant
contributions.
Youth-serving organizations have for some time been concerned about provid-
ing young people with service opportunities. Meaningful work, in units that
permit a person a sense of achievement, has long been recognized as contributing
to an individual's self-respect. Yet there are only slim chances of young people
being involved in projects of a service character that are truly appealing to
youth themselves. Many adult-conceived enterprises reportedly have the look
of made work to young people, or are intended to serve ends which the adult
may appreciate but which may remain obscure to youth.
Giving youth a chance to help implies work we ourselves regard as of vital
importance, not some incidental tidying-up operation. Giving youth a chance to
help means accepting the possibility they will make mistakes on the job now
and again — and it means being willing to accept the mistakes. Giving youth a
chance to help means designing projects with an eye to youth participation in
leadership and control, not service time and again as handmaiden only.
Perhaps city departments will have youth service projects of their own to
suggest. But a variety of statutory limitations upon the city make this area of
operation one probably more feasible for private organization. I know from
our discussions with them that a number of social agencies would be mo.st inter-
ested in reviewing with any interested donor a number of service programs
presently awaiting sponsorship.
A kind of service prcjject which might also be more largely developed under
private auspices is self-service — by youth for youth. There have been occasions
in the history of the youth board's street clubs project, when a group which,
perhaps, had been hanging out in candy stores or on the curb, got together and
36 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
set up their own clubhouse in a vacant store front. Neighborhood merchants
sometimes provided paint and the brushes with which the boys worked. Some
undertaliings along these lines were eminently successful; upon occasion, the
outcome left something to be desired. In principle, however, an opportunity for
youth to operate directly upon their own concerns would seem to be worth the
planning. Certainly there is a tremendous range of possibilities in the schools-
if adult advisors can accord youth any sizable area of free operation.
The most ambitious efforts in the service area are work camps. Under private
auspices, mostly by denominational service committees, important projects have
been undertaken by small work crews in resident settings. And some years ago,
under public auspices, there were the resident work centers of the National Youth
Administration, and the forestry camps of the Civilian Conservation Corps.
I'eople who have spent many years at youth work feel vei-y strongly that a
broadened conception of one's place in the world is provided by projects along
these lines, perhaps more effectively than in any other way.
To live among one's peers ; to be continuously in the company of a few
friendly, helpful, genuinely interested adults; to have an opportunity both to
work and to learn ; to be working at something both interesting and important
(like building new cabins in a children's camp) ; to have some fun in a place
in some sense one's own ; these are the attraction work camps offer youth.
While the city cannot undertake any major program along these lines in the
forseeable future, several private agencies have indicated an interest in this
sort of project, if they had the money. This is one of a number of projects
I feel should be brought to the attention of the people of New York, in the
event new resources could be made available to the interested private agencies.
JOINT PLANNING
I have not discussed the financing of various programs in detail. Most will
be found to come under formulas for State reimbursement. A number relate to
areas which may be covered by Federal programs presently under discussion,
especially the Kefauver bill (S. 728) which not only provides for subsidizing^
programs but details adequate administrative procedures as well."
That we will cooperate with the Govnernor's juvenile delinquency study com-
mittee goes without saying. But there are even now 1 or 2 matters of special
interest.
The New York City Youth Board, for example (which is the hub about which
our whole program revolves) carries on from year to year as a temporary agency
because of the terms of pertinent legislation at the State level. As a result the
city departments operating programs under youth board subvention — and the
private agencies, to an even greater extent, are left continually uncertain in the
projection of any even moderately long-range plans.
One specific project which might be undertaken in a State agency would
be the inauguration of special units in the public employment service to provide
personnel in a position to find jobs and carry on the necessary follow-up on the
employment problems of maladjusted youth. A few private services are doing
a notable job in this field, but their resources are pitifully small. Those who
know the field assure me there are young people ready and able to go to
work who are getting into trouble simply because we have no really efEective,
thoughtful, patient placement program to help them.
The New York City Mental Health Board will play an important part in the
development of programs for maladjusted youth.
For example, there are virtually no treatment programs for older boys with
emotional disorders leading to violent behavior — yet many youths who fall into
this category could be taken care of without being sent to an institution. There
is a similar lack of facilities for boys who could make a decent adjust to society
if there was a cluli of some sort where they could live and have some counseling
help, while continuing on their jobs or at school. Their families have failed
them, and in this small but significant number of cases, their homes seem simply
out of the question for the boys involved.
Still another need is for large-scale professional training programs over rela-
tively long periods ; the youth board institutes I have recommended are not
designed to take college students and make psychiatrists, caseworkers, and the
« It would be well to bear in mind, however, that only $5 million would be made available
for all 48 States together, if the bill were passed.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY ,37
SPENDING MONEY %
SAVING MONEY ?
WHAT $2500 A YEAR WILL PAY FOR
i4^
ONE BOY IN A CORRECTIONAL
INSTITUTION
■OR
INTENSIVE CASEWORK WITH
12 FAMILIES
@)
RECREATION & CLUB PROGRAMS
FOR 85 KIDS
@)
A TRAINED YOUTH LEADER FOR
25 TEEN-AGERS IN A STREET CLUB
@)
A ^ REMEDIAL READING TEACHER'^
FOR 15 CHILDREN
@)
TRAINING INSTITUTES FOR
330 YOUTH WORKERS
@)
JUVENILE AID BUREAU
PATROLMAN; 165 CASES
38 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
like out of thera." They may not even be in a position to provide the major
retraining vphicli many professionals seem to need in order to worli with some
more violent youths.
We have profited in this study by consultation with Dr. Lemkau, and I have
mentioned specific areas here more by way of example than as specific recom-
mendations to the mental health board. As its own studies proceed, I am sure
it will move in on a whole series of problems in our common effort to provide
better services for delinquent and predelinquent youth.
THE ROAD AHEAD
We use the term "juvenile delinquent" to apply to children and youths guilty
of a wide range of misbehavior. Most of these young people fall within the
normal intelligence range. Their delinquency, in the overwhelming majority
of cases, is not the outcome of any piiysical or hereditary defect. Most of the
attitudes we deplore are not in any sense a reflection of brain disorders.
"Most juvenile delinquents are * * * potentially normal persons whose back-
ground is lacking in stabilizing influences both culturally and economically."
We would do well to bear in mind the words of a distinguished psychologist ^'
from the National Institute of Mental Health, "Delinquency is as general a term
as bellyache." It is important in approaching this problem that we bear in mind
that the same delinquency may mean different things in the lives of different
boys. Stealing, for example, may be the compulsive act of a habitual neurotic;
or it may be the impulsive satisfying of a whim, a purely transitory phenomenon.
It may represent a response to what a youngster conceives to be a challenge to his
ingenuity ; or it may be a hostile gesture against an unfriendly adult ; or it may
be the irresponsible "borrowing" of someone else's auto for an evening's joyride.
A crime is a crime and the wrongdoer must be made to answer for it. Yet in a
very real sense, "circumstances alter cases" and the approach to rehabilitation
for one offender may prove fantastically inappropriate in the case of another.
In considering remedial measures we will do well to proceed planfully, not
acting on imi)ulse, or going overboard for some precious scheme which is designed
to wrap up the whole juvenile delinquency problem in one neat package. We
will really start off on the wrong foot if we presume that there is a single appro-
priate approach to this riddle.
There are hard facts to be faced. Probably the most authoritative review
of work in progress in this field, prepared by the United States Children's Bureau
points out that :
"The causes of delinquency are numerous both in toto and within the individual
case. This makes it unlikely that any program will achieve spectacular results.
Most programs are single-focused. They aim at the elimination or amelioration
of some condition that the backers regard as especially important in delinquency
causation. Since, however, these conditions do not operate in isolation — either
in the community or within the individual child and family — it is not to be
expected that any single approach to delinquency prevention will be strikingly
successful."
Helping rehabilitate delinquents, preventing youth in hazard from taking
the delinquent path, requires focusing of skills from a numlier of fields. The
teacher's knowledge in encouraging the acquisition of essential skills for living ;
the social worker's understanding of the interplay of emotion and action ; the
psychiatrist's insight into the deeper motives of behavior ; the psychologist's
skill in evaluating mental processes — no one alone suffices.
Programs to cope with delinquency may stand or fall depending ui)on the
breadth of vision of professionals in those and other fields. Children will be
receiving something less than the best we can offer, unless these specialists
(along with religious leaders, guidance counselors, police and court oflScers)
are, as people, big enough to pull together on a team, to share one another's
skills.
Services to delinquent and pre-delinquent youth have crucial implications for
the future of our city :
"Lest the generations of these maimed in childhood, each making the next
in its own image, create upon the darkness, like mirrors locked face to face, an
infinite corridor of despair."
" Our projected school of social work at Hunter College will not be in position to even
start meeting this need for at least 18 months.
« Fritz Redl.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
39
LOCATION OF YOUTH BOARD SERVICES
PUBLIC AeCNCY
PBIVATC AGENCY
40 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. I am cognizant of the fact that the New
Yotk Legislatnre did unusually fine work in the area of crime and
horror comic books and pornographic literature earlier in the year.
Assemblyman James Fitzpatrick's committee of the State legislature
did a great deal of serious, conscientious work in this field.
We have come here with no intention of criticizing New York or
any other one city or area; rather, we are here to show a nationwide
picture. We seek and we feel we are entitled to receive the full
cooperation of all public officials and thoughtful citizens throughout
the Nation in this effort. Juvenile delinquency in general and
pornographic literature in particular are problems facing every sec-
tion. No one area should be singled out for censure. We must work
together on a cooperative basis to solve this perplexing problem.
I would like to say at this time that no Senator has given more
thoughtful attention to juvenile delinquency than my distinguished
colleague. Senator William Langer, of North Dakota, who is here
with us today. Senator Langer has personally conducted many
hearings into this problem in all parts of the country. He has spent
many hours conferring with those who have worked in this field
and has conscientiously prepared valuable reports on this subject.
Since assuming the chairmanship of the Senate Subcommittee To
Investigate Juvenile Delinquency in February of this year I have be-
come increasingly concerned during each ]:)assing week with the effect
pornogTaphic material has on American adolescents and juveniles, and
with the widespread distribution of this insidious filth. Therefore,
some 2 montlis ago we directed the subcommittee staff — and I think
we have a very excellent staff; several of the members being here, our
chief counsel, Mr. James Bobo, on my left — to make an intensive
investigation in this field.
Those of us on the subcommittee first became acutely aware of this
problem while doing the preparatory 'work for the hearings on crime
and horror comic books. In the course of our investigation on pornog-
raphy the subconunittee has sent out more than 200 questionnaires
to police chiefs in cities with a large population, and to more than 250
chiefs in small cities, rural areas, and university communities. An
unusually high percentage of this group is cooperating.
I say without hesitance that I have been shocked and deeply dis-
turbed personally by their findings.
The entire problem was pointed up by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover, Direc-
tor of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, when he said :
The publication and distribution of salacious material is a peculiarly vicious
evil : the destruction of moral character caused by it among young people cannot
l)e overestimated. The circulation of periodicals containing such material plays
an important part in the development of crime among the youth of our country.
Many people are under the imjH-ession that pornographic rnovies,
so-called party records, pictures showing unnatural sexual activities,
and other material of this sort is produced primarily for stag parties
and men's smokers. The effect of this material on adults is un-
doubtedly degi-ading, but the long-range impact on juveniles is far
more serious; and that is what we are considering here today.
We shall show by these hearings that a large portion of the market
for this material is with the inquisitive and impressionable teenagers.
This means that after young people have been exposed to these porno-
graphic pictures and movies showing all types of perversion, they
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 41
may tend to regard these things as normal. Indeed the influence is to
lead them to embrace the abnormal and thus mar youthful lives.
We are calling witnesses who can testify to the effect this material
has on the thinking and the habits of youngsters. I think it is time
that this whole sordid business in insidious filth be brought into the
open. The traffic in pornography has been growing by hundreds of
thousands of dollars annually since the war.
Wliile this traffic has been" growing, sex crimes have increased with
almost unbelievable rapidity. The statistics speak for themselves.
A survey by the Federal Bureau of Investigation recently showed that
during 1953 a sex criminal was arrested somewhere in our Nation
every *6.7 minutes, day and night. Rape cases have increased 110 per-
cent'since 1937. More rapes are now being committed by 18- and 19-
year-old boys than by males in any other age group, and the percen-
age of rapists under' 20 has approximately doubled since 1940. The
impulses which spur people to sex crimes unquestionably are intensi-
fied by reading and seeing filthy material. Certainly something must
be done about this filth.
The control of pornography rests with three distinct yet intercon-
necting groups. They are: (1) The Federal Government; (2) States
and local communities; and (3) the individual. Generally, none have
shown sufficient awareness of this acute situation.
In this respect I believe that the Federal Government has been the
chief offender. On the Federal level we can stop the importation of
this salacious material by adequate legislation and increased enforce-
ment. The Federal Government must also be concerned about the dis-
tribution of pornographic material through the mails and its trans-
portation by private automobile in interstate commerce.
Basically, however, it is the responsibility of the Federal Govern-
ment to provide leadership in the overall effort to combat the distribu-
tion of pornographic material.
On the State level, there is desperate need for improved State stat-
utes. Several States are showing the way in this respect, and the signs
are becoming more hopeful in many others.
I^cal law enforcement and the public interest in this problem still
tends to be spasmodic and insufficient. This subcommittee means to
do its best to insure that the Federal Government assumes its respon-
sibility. I have great confidence that when the facts are known others
will be willing and anxious to do their part.
It is my strong feeling and the feeling of my colleagues on the sub-
committee that the most plausible solution is Federal legislation which
will stamp out the traffic. We already have several possible bills in
mind designed to plug the gaping loopholes in existing legislation.
This subcommittee has already reported 2 bills — Senate bills 599 and
GOO — which are aimed at tightening Federal control of pornographic
materials in interstate commerce. These bills were passed by the Sen-
ate and now await action of the House of Representatives.
We have come to New York City to hold these hearings because of
the national and international character of this racket. While it is
ti'ue tliat New York City has a great deal of difficulty with the dis-
tribution of pornographic material, this is also true in a great many
other cities in the Nation. This i)roblem is both local and national.
Since New York is the most important port of entry, the subcommittee
felt the national effort would be best helped by holding these hearings
42 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
here. Several parts of the country, inchiding tlie area around New
York, are used as distribution points to channel the flow of smut into
villages and hamlets across our great land. The Federal Governmeiit
is responsible for stopping tlie influx of this material through the
ports of entry and for its movement in interstate commerce.
We intend later to hold additional hearings on pornography in other
parts of the Nation.
At the very outset let me make clear that the term "pornography"
as it will be used in these hearings does not refer to legitimate maga-
zines and books, although many of these border on the pornographic.
This hearing will not even deal with the so-called art and health books,
though some of them appear to be nothing more than a shrewd cover
for pornography. Certainly we have no thought of censorship of any
sort in mind. No one is more interested in the fullest freedom of the
press than Senator Langer and me, but freedom of the press does not
mean a license for indecency. Rather, we are concerned with pub-
lications and movies which everyone will agree portray and describe
the basest sexual acts of perversions.
I have been greatly disturbed as I have looked through examples of
material confiscated throughout the Nation in police raids. I can-
not commend highly enough the many police chiefs who have coop-
erated so splendidly with our subcommittee and with our staff. Most
are acutely aware of the seriousness of the situation. When I realize
that much of the pornographic material is actually designed for the
impressionable juvenile mind, it is certainly obvious that these ma-
terials could do incalculable damage to the moral and phychological
fabric of our society through their elfect on youngsters.
A large mail-order business in pornography is flourishing in every
section of our land. We have received from many irate parents ex-
amples of advertisements sent through the mail trying to sell all sorts
of filth to the very young. From our own State of Tennessee have
come numerous advertisements of this material mailed orginally to
teen-agers.
Not only do children see movies made by the pornographers, but we
have examples of the obvious use of children ranging from 14 to 18
years of age participating in the making of the poronographic films.
Youngsters are used a great deal to peddle the filth to other chil-
dren.
Pornography is only one of the subjects with which this subcom-
mittee is dealing. We have held extensive hearings on youth employ-
ment, the effect of television on young minds, runaway children,
juvenile courts, problems among Indian cliildren, public and private
social and welfare agencies, and other subjects. The subcommittee
also has dealt with the overall problem in some 20 communities ; but
certainly pornography is an important phase.
In summary, let me say that in our hearings on pornography here
and elsewhere we shall explore principally these five fields :
First, the magnitude of the traffic in obscene and lewd publications,
pictures, records, and movies.
Second, the international and interstate ramifications of porno-
graphy, its production, distribution, and sale.
Third, the impact of this material on juveniles and the use of juve-
niles in this traffic.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 43
Fourth, expanded Federal legislation designed to eliminate this can-
cerous growth on our social fabric.
Fifth, advising law-enforcement officials, parents, and others of the
situation because on them eventual success will rest.
This, I am sure all of you realize, is a delicate subject with which
we are dealing. I feel confident that the press, the witnesses and all
others will handle this problem according to the highest tenets of
good taste. I do not want to arouse any curiosity among those groups
which have not seen this sort of literature. On the other hand, I do
not want to be like the proverbial ostrich and hide our heads in the
sand to avoid the perplexing problem.
At one time there were those wlio said narcotics as a problem should
be avoided. That is, publicity about it. Others have proposed closing
their eyes to the existence of venereal disease. Experience and the
tests of time have shown that only by facing up to these problems can
they be solved. Intensive educational campaigns have reduced the
incidence of venereal disease. A public awareness of all that is in-
volved in narcotics addiction has been proved to be a vast help in
this field.
This subcommittee proposes to handle pornography in an adult, en-
lightened, and restrained fashion. No evil can be cured by being-
ignored. I believe that the healthful sunshine of public opinion is
the best cure for this problem or any other. We are determined to
arrive at some substantial results from these hearings.
Let me say in the begining that because of the rules of the building
we cannot have smoking in the courtroom. That is difficult for some,
including the chairman.
iVlso, some names will necessarily be used by witnesses. For that
purpose, for that reason we will swear the witnesses, place them under
oath, and they will testify. Anyone whose name is brought out, if he
feels that his position has not been properly presented, if he will let
the staff of the committee know we will immediately give him an
opportunity of being heard.
Our staff' has scanned the evidence, gone over it as fairly as possible.
We don't want to do anyone an injustice. If anyone feels that their
position has not been properly presented, they will be allowed to
testify immediately.
We are honored to have the movie cameras and the TV here with
us. To the extent that it is feasible and possible, we want all media
of publication to participate; but any witness who feels that he or
she would be embarrassed or discommoded by the lights or by tele-
vision and the movie cameras, if they will let the staff or the subcom-
mittee know, they will not be asked to testify for television.
Also, some of these lights are pretty warm at times.
Senator Langer, do you wish to may any comments before we start?
Senator Langer. No, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. I think I would probably better swear you re-
porters.
(At this point Chairman Kefauver swore Maxwell S. Lipton and
H. Schneider to duly report the hearings of the subcommittee.)
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have any comments about
the hearings before we start ?
65263 — 55 4
44 JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY
I might say that our hearing today will have to be cut short at
about 12 : 30 because Senator Langer and I have to return to the
Senate to be counted for a vote, which will be held at about 3 o'clock.
We will have to recess here about 12 : 30. We will have a break at
about 11, and then we will resume and carry on through until 12 : 30,
Tomorrow we have, unfortunately, the same situation. We will
begin at 9 and will carry on, have a short lunch period and carry on
until about 3 ; then we have to return to Washington for another vote.
We will be back for the hearings to start at 9 o'clock Thursday.
Mr. Bobo, do you have a certain resolution that you want to read
into the record ?
Mr. BoBO. Yes ; I have.
Resolved by the subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary
Chairman Kefauver. Just state what it is.
Mr. BoBO. This is a resolution authorizing the sitting of this sub-
committee in New York, with Senator Estes Kefauver and such other
members as are present and are authorized to take sworn testimony, a
copy of which is here agreed to by the full membership of the sub-
committee.
Chairman Kefatjver. Also let a copy of the resolution creating the
subcommittee and the appointment of the subcommittee membere be
made a part of the record at this point.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 2," and read
as follows:)
Exhibit No. 2
[S. Res. 89, 83d Cong., 1st sess.]
[Omit the imrt .struck through and insert the part printed in itahc]
RESOLUTION
Resolved, That the Committee on the Juchciary, or anv duly authorized sub-
committee thereof, is authorized and directed to conduct a full and complete study
of juvenile delinquency in the United States. In the conduct of such investiga-
tion special attention shall be given to (1) determining the extent and character of
juvenile delinquency in the United States and its causes and contributing factors,
(2) the adequacv of existing provisions of law, including chapters 402 and 403 of
title 18 of the Ufnited States Code, in dealing with youthful offenders of Federal
laws, (3) sentences imposed on, or otlier correctional action taken with respect to,
youthful offender by Federal courts, and (4) the extent to which juveniles are vio-
lating laws relating to the sale or use of narcotics.
*Sec. £. The committee, or any duly authorized subcommittee thereof, is authorized
to sit and act at such places and times during the sessions, recesses, and adjourned
periods of the Senate, to hold such hearings, to require by subpenas or otherwise the
attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents,
to administer such oaths, to take such testimony, to procure such printing and binding,
and, within the amount appropriated therefor, to ynake such expenditures as it deems
advisable. The cost of stenographic services to report hearings of the committee or sub-
committee shall not be in excess of 40 cents per hundred words. Subpenas shall be
issiied by the chairman of the committee or the subcommittee, and may be served by any
person designated by such chairrnan.
A majority of the members of the committee, or duly authorized subcommittee thereof,
shall constitute a quorum for the transaction of business, except that a lesser number
to be fixed by the committee or by such subcommittee, shall constitute a quoiumfor the
purpose of administei ing oaths and taking sworn testimony.
Sec. 3'.?. The Committee shall report its findings, together with its recom-
mendations for such legislation as it deems advisable, to the Senate at the earliest
date jjracticable but not later than March 1, 1954.
Sec. ;* 4. For the purposes of this resolution, the Committee, or any duly author-
ized subcommittee thereof, is authorized to employ upon a temporary basis such
technical, clerical, and other assistants as it deems advisable. The expenses of
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 45
the Committee under this resoUition, which shall not exceed $50,000, shall be paid
from the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers approved by the Chairman
of the Committee.
[S. Res. 190, 83d Cong., 2d sess.]
RESOLUTION
Resolved, That section 3 of S. Res. 89, Eighty-third Congress, agreed to June 1,
1958 (authorizing tlie Committee on the Judiciary to make a study of juvenile
delinquency in the United States) , is amended to read as follows :
"Sec. 3. The committee shall make a preliminary report of its findings, to-
gether with its recommendations for such legislation as it deems advisable,
to the Senate not later than February 28, 1934, and shall make a final report
of such findings and recommeudatiuns to the Senate at the earliest date prac-
ticable but not later than January 31, 1955."
Sec. 2. The limitation of expenditures under such S. Res. 80 is increased by
^175.000. and such sum together with any unexpended balance of the sum
previously authorized to be expended under such resolution shall be paid from
the contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers approved by the chairman of
the committee.
[S. Res. 62, 84th Cong:., 1st sess.]
RESOLUTION
Resolved, That in holding hearings, reporting such hearings, and making inves-
tigations as authorized by section 134 of the Legislative Reorganization Act
■of 1946, and in accordance with its jurisdictions specified by rule XXV of the
Standing Rules of the Senate insofar as they relate to the authority of the
Committee on the Judiciary to conduct a full and complete study of juvenile
delinquency in the United States, and including (a) the extent and character
of juvenile delinquency in the United States and its causes and contributing
factors, (b) the adequacy of existing provisions of law, including chapters
402 and 403 of title 18 of the United States Code, in dealing with youthful
offenders of Federal laws, (c) .sentences imposed on, or other correctional action
taken with respect to, youthful offenders by Federal courts, and (d) the extent
to which juveniles are violating Federal laws relating to the sale or use of
narcotics, the Committee on the Judiciary, or any subcommittee thereof, is
authorized from March 1, 1955, through July 31, 1955, (1) to make such expendi-
tures as it deems advisable including no more than $2,000 for obligations out-
standing and incurred pursuant to S. Res. 49, agreed to February 4, 1955; (2)
to employ on a temporary basis such technical, clerical, and other assistants
and consultants as it deems advisable; and (3) with the consent of the heads
of the department or agency concerned, to utilize the reimbursable services,
information, facilities, and personnel of any of the departments or agencies of
the Government.
Sec. 2. The expenses of the committee under this resolution, which shall not
exceed $125,000, shall be paid from the contingent fund of the Senate by vouchers
.t\ppro\'ed by the chairman of the committee.
Sec. 3. This resolution shall be effective as of March 1, 1955.
Resolution
Resolved by the subcommittee of the Committee on the Judicinru to Studi/
Juvenile Delinquency in the United States, That pursuant to subsection (3) of
rule XXV, as amended, of the Standing Rules of the Senate (S. Res. ISO. 81st
Cong., 2d sess., agreed to February 1, 1950) and committee resolutions of the
<:!ommittee on the Judiciary adopted January 20, 1955. that Senator Estes
Kefauver (Democrat, Tennessee), and such other members as are present,
are authorized to hold hearings of this subcommittee in New York, N. Y., on
May 23, 24, 25, and 20, and such other days as may be required to complete these
iiearings, and to take sworn testimonv from witne.sses.
Agreed to this 20th day of May 1955.
Thomas C. Hexnings, Jr.,
WiLi-iAM Langer,
Alexander Wiley,
Members of Subcommittee to Study Juvenile Delinquency.
46 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Bobo?
Mr. Bobo. That is all.
Chairman Kefauver. Our first witness.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Peter N. Chumbris.
TESTIMONY OF PETER N. CHUMBRIS, ASSOCIATE COUNSEL, UNITED
STATES SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE JUVENILE
DELINQUENCY, OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
(Mr. Chmnbris was sworn by Chairman Kefauver.)
Chairman Kefauver. We have a lot of witnesses. We want to get
to the important points.
All right, Mr. Bobo, will you proceed ?
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Chumbris, you have a statement there outlining
the investigation which you have made as a member of the staff,
showing the data that has been gathered by the subcommittee. I will
ask you to proceed with your statement.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris is our associate counsel of our
subcommittee, a very capable lawyer from Washington, D. C, who
has been with the subcommittee for some time, and is a competent
and fair attorney; and his investigation in this field has been very
substantial.
Mr. Chumbris. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Eealizing the great impact that sucli lewd and obscene pornographic
matter would have on youth, the subcommittee assigned to several
members of the staff the investigation to be made of the nature and
extent of the pornographic traffic in the United States and to deter-
mine if said traffic were of interstate character.
During the course of the investigation, I made it a practice to
visit the police departments of the respective cities and counties or
the prosecuting attorneys that I visited during the course of the in-
vestigations and hearings, as well as making special visits to these
cities. We examined the exhibits that the departments had in their
files that were taken from the violators of pornography.
In discussing the matter we obtained much information as to who
the leading producers and distributors and small stores were that were
selling this pornography, not only to adults but to many of the
juveniles. We obtainecl their criminal records, their methods of
operation and the territories which they covered.
Throughout this procedure the subcommittee showed that the traffic
in pornography is interstate in nature and that it is fanned out
across the four corners of our Nation.
If you will look at the map on my right here [exhibiting], each
one of these dots represents various activities as is indicated at the
top.
The related dots represent actual reports that we have received
from the chiefs of police that pornography is being sold to juveniles.
The blue dots indicate the cities that one distributor alone in Houston,
Tex., fans out his operations in all of those cities.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, it is hard to see just what the
cities listed in the files of the Southwest distribution is. I cannot see
what colors they are. Generally where does one man out of Houston
operate ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 47
Mr. Chumbris. The one man out of Houston, for instance, are these
black dots [indicating], and you can see them all along in liere. They
go up into Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, into Louisiana, Mississippi,
Alabama, Georgia, Florida, part in Tennessee, Missouri. They go
into Colorado, into two towns in New Mexico, and into Los Angeles,
San Francisco, Sacramento, on north. They even reach up to Ta-
coma. Wash. ; and that is one distributor from Houston, Tex.
Incidentally, the subcommittee worked with the police department
of Houston, Tex., in apprehending this person who had that great
traffic in distributing pornographic materials.
Chairman Kefauver. Is there any reason why you cannot tell us
w^ho he is?
Mr. Chumbris. That will be brought out later, Senator, during the
course of these hearings.
Mr. BoBO. The man you are referring to, is that Ed Florance, of
Houston, Tex.?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. And it was approximately about
a week ago that this raid took place and this great haul was made
by the police department of Houston.
Mr. BoBO. It is true this man's operations extended into Canada,
South America, and Mexico ?
Mr. Chumbris. That is correct, Mr. Bobo. Some of the cities and
States
Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute. "Wlienever you want to take
any pictures, turn these lights on ; but it is awfully hot. I don't know
how we can arrange that. If you cannot, just say so.
Mr. Chumbris. Some of the cities and States from which informa-
tion was received from the police departments and other city and
State officials were : Philadelphia, Pa. ; New York City, N. Y. ; Pitts-
burgh, Pa.; Chicago, 111.; Detroit, Mich.; Milwaukee, Wis.; Cleve-
land, Oliid; Miami, Fla.; St. Louis and Kansas City, Mo.; New
Orleans, La.; Los Angeles, Calif.; Connecticut; and various cities
in such States as Connecticut, Ehode Island, Massachusetts, North
Carolina, the State of Washington, and several others.
From these personal interviews and in corresponding with these
officials, the subcommittee was able to determine that certain individ-
uals were known in many of these cities and States, and were known
to be large distributors of pornographic matter in many parts of the
country.
Several key witnesses will present testimony of the extent and
nature of the interstate character of the filthy pornographic traffic;
most of them are representatives of the police departments of these
various cities.
Now, at the outset it would be interesting to note that with the
changing of the times has also come a change in pornographic matter.
Back in 1900 many States had inaugurated statutes to stop the traffic
of pornography, but in those days they were little 2-by-4's known
as "Maggie and Jiggs" books, little pamphlets, a few pictures. But
today the business has become highly specialized. We have film, we
have film in color, we have film with sound, we have wire recordings,
tape recordings, records, playing records; we have booklets in color,
and the usual type to which I have already referred.
Many of these statutes have been unaltered throughout the years,
and because of this new influx of the type of pornogTaphic material
48 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
we have received from the various officials of the various States the
complaint that the statutes need to be changed to meet this new prob-
lem that now confronts them.
Chairman KErAu\=rER. That is true of the States' statutes, but it is
especially true of our Federal statutes.
Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. Federal statutes 1461, 1462, 1463,
and 1464, a copy of which I have here and which I Avould like to intro-
duce into evidence-
Chairman KEFA^T^'ER. Let them be printed in the record.
(The documents referred to above were marked "Exhibit No. 3,"
and are as follows :)
Exhibit No. 3
Sec. 1461. RL^iling Obscene or Crime-Inciting Matter
Every obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, paper, letter,
writing, print, or other publication of an indecent character ; and
Every article or thing designed, adapted, or intended for preventing conception
or producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral use ; and
Every article, instrument, substance, drug, medicine, or thing which is adver-
tised or described in a manner calculated to lead another to use or apply it for
preventing conception or "producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral
purpose ; and
Every written or printed card, letter, circular, book, pamphlet, advertisement,
or notice of any kind giving information, directly or indirectly, where, or how,^
or from whom, or by what means any of such mentioned matters, articles, or
things may be obtained or made, or where or by whom any act or operation of any
kind for the procuring or producing of abortion will be done or performed, or how
or by what means conception may be prevented or abortion produced, whether
sealed or unsealed ; and
Every letter, packet, or package, or other mail matter containing any filthy,
vile, or indecent thing, device, or substance ; and
Every paper, writing, advertisement, or representation that any article, instru-
ment, substance, drug, medicine, or thing may, or can, be used or applied for
preventing conception or producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral pur-
pose; and ' *|
Every description calculated to induce or incite a person to so use or apply any
such article, instrument, substance, drug, medicine, or thing — ■
Is declared to be nonmailable matter and shall not be conveyed in the mails
or delivered from any post office or by any letter carrier.
Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, anything declared by
this section to be nonmailable, or knowingly takes the same from the mails for
the purpose of circulating or disposing thereof, or of aiding in the circulation or
disposition thereof, shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more
than five years, or both.
The term "indecent," as used in this section includes matter of a character
tending to incite arson, murder, or assassination. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, sec. 1,
62 Stat. 768. efE. Sept. 1. 1948.)
Sec. 1462. Importation or Transportation of Obscene LiTEuATtmE
Whoever brings into the United States, or any place subject to the jurisdiction
thereof, or knowingly deposits with any express company or other common
carrier, for carriage in interstate or foreign commei'ce any obscene, lewd, las-
civious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, motion-picture film, paper, letter,
writing, print, or other matter of indecent character, or any drug, medicine,
article, or thing designed, adapted, or intended for preventing conception, or
producing abortion, or for any indecent or immoral use ; or any written or
printed card, letter, circular, book, pamphlet, advertisement, or notice of any
kind giving information, directly or indirectly, where, how or of whom, or by
what means any of such mentioned articles, matters, or things may be obtained
or made ; or
Whoever knowingly takes from such express company or other common
carrier any matter or thing the depositing of which for carriage is herein made
unlawful ■
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 49
Shall be liued not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or
both. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, see. 1, 62 Stat. 768, eff. Sept. 1, 1948.)
Sec. 1463. Mailing Indecent Matter on Wrappers or Envelopes
All matter otherwise mailable by law, upon the envelope or outside cover or
wrapper of which, and all postal cards upon which, any delineations, epithets,
terms, or language of an indecent, lewd, lascivious, or obscene character are
written or printed or otherwise impressed or apparent, are nonmailable matter,
and shall not be conveyed in the mails nor delivered from any post office nor liy
any letter carrier, and shall be withdrawn from the mails under such regula-
tions as the Postmaster General shall prescribe.
Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, anything declared by
this section to be nonmailable matter, or knowingly takes the same from the
mails for the purpose of circulating or disposing of or aiding in the circulation
or disposition of the same, shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not
more than five years, or both. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, sec. 1, 62 Stat. 769, eft.
Sept. 1, 1948.)
Sec. 1464. Broadcasting Obscene Langtjage
Whoever utters any obscene, indecent, or profane language by means of radio
communication shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more
than two years, or both. (June 25, 1948, eh. 645, sec. 1, 62 Stat. 769, eff. Sept. 1,
1948.)
Mr. Chumbris. Of statutes prohibiting obscene, pornographic, lewd
matter from being mailed or transported across State lines, or being
brought into the United States.
Now, we also go into the State laws, and, Mr. Chairman, I also
have here a summary of the State laws of the 48 States that I would
like to have presejited here this morning.
Chairman Kefauver. That will be printed in the Record as an
exhibit in your testimony.
(The document referred to above was marked '"Exhibit No. 4," and
is as follows:)
Exhibit No. 4
The Library op Congress,
Legislative Reference Service,
Washington 25, D. C, May 19, 1955.
To : Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency.
Attention : Mr. Schonberger.
From : American Law Division.
Subject : Minimum and maximum penalties imposed for violations of State laws
pertaining to obscene and pornographic materials.
AlnJ)ama
Posting or leaving obscene picture or printed matter near a church, school,
highway, etc. — Fine of $10 to $500, or punishment at hard labor by the county
up to 12 months.
Introducing, advertising, or selling obscene material. — Fine of $50 to $1,000.
Display of nude pictures in public places, except galleries. — Fine of $50 to $500.
Code (1940) Lit. 14 §§ 372-374.
Arisona
Preparation, advertisement, distribution, sale or exhibition of obscene mate-
rials.— Imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or fine up to $300, or both.
Code Ann. (1939) §§ 43-110; 43-3002.
Arkansas
Circulation, offer for sale, and sale of obscene materials. — Fine of $100 to $300
for first offense ; $500 to $1,000 for second offense.
Selling, offering for sale, or possessing any materials, the shipment of which
has been rejected by the United States mails, or which the Federal Government
will not permit to be shipi)ed or handled. Fine of $50 to $100 ; each day of vio-
lation being a separate offense.
Stat. Ann. (1947) §§ 41-2704, 41-2706 to 41-2708.
50 JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY
Califorwia
Imprisonment in county jail up to six monttis or fine up to $500, or both, for
tlie first offense ; or imprisonment in state prison for not less than one year for
subsequent offenses. — Penal Code (Deering, 1949) §§ 19, 311.
Colorado
Fine of $100 to $2,000 with costs, and imprisonment in the county jail up to
one year.
Rev. Stat. (1953) § 40-9-17.
Connecticut
Imprisonment up to two years, or fine up to $1,000, or both.
Gen. Stat. (1949) § 8567.
Delaware
Fine of $250 to $2,500, or imprisonment for 30 days to three years, or both ;
and fine of $500 to $5,000, or imprisonment for six months to five years, or both,
for subsequent offenses.
Code Ann. (West, 1953) ch. 11 §§ 711-712.
Florida
Imprisonment in state prison up to five years, in the county jail not exceeding
one year, or fine up to $100.
Stat. Ann. (1944) §847.01.
Georgia
Imprisonment for one to five years ; or, on jury's recommendation, a fine not
to exceed $1,000 or imprisonment up to six months at work on the public roads,
or on other public works, not to exceed 12 months, or or more of these penalties.
Code Ann. (1953) §§ 20-6301 ; 27-2506.
Idaho
Imprisonment in county jail up to six months; or fine not exceeding $300,
or both.
Code Ann. (1948) §§ 1&-113, 18-4101.
Illinois
Imprisonment in county jail up to six months, or fine of $100 to $1,000.
Ann. Stat. (Smith-Hurd, 1935) ch. 38 § 468.
Indiana
Fine of $10 to $200, to which may be added imprisonment up to 90 days.
Stat. Ann. (Burns, Supp. 1953) §10-2805.
lotva
Imprisonment up to one year, or fine up to $1,000.
Code Ann. (West, 1950) § 725.4.
Kansas
Fine of $5 to $300, or imprisonment up to 30 days, or both, for dealing in obscene
literature; fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment from 30 to six months,
or both, for publishing such literature.
Gen. Stat. Ann. (Corrick, 1949) §§21-1101 to 21-1102.
Kentucky
Fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment from 10 days to one year, or both.
Rev. Stat. (1953) §436.100.
Louisiana
Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to two years, or both.
Rev. Stat. Ann. (West, 1951) Tit. 14 § 106.
Ilaine
Fine of $100 to $1,000, and imprisonment up to five years for publishing and
circulating obscene materials. Fine of $25 to $100, or imprisonment up to six
months, or both, for circulating such materials among minors.
Rev. Stat. (1954) ch. 134 § § 24, 27.
Maryland
Fine up to $200. or imprisonment up to one year, or both.
Code Ann. (Flack, 1951) art. 27 §515.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 51
Massachusetts
Imprisonment up to two years, or fine of $100 to $1,000, or botb, for first
offense ; imprisonment of six months to two and one-half years, or fine of $200
to $2,000, or both, for subsequent offenses. These penalties apply to sales or
distribution of obscene literature to persons under 18.
Imprisonment up to two years, or fine of $100 to $1,000, or both, for sale or
distribution of obscene pamphlets, records and pictures, and books.
Ann. Laws (Supp. 1954) ch. 272 § § 27-28B.
Michiffa7i
Imprisonment in county jail up to 90 days, or fine up to $100, or both, for first
offense ; imprisonment up to one year, or fine up to $500 for second oft'ense ; im-
prisonment up to four years, or fine up to $2,000, or both, for third and subsequent
offenses.
Stat. Ann. (1938) §§28.575-28.577,28.577 (1), 28.771-28.772.
Minnesota
Imprisonment of 90 days to one year in county jail, or fine of $100 to $500,
or both.
Stat. Ann. (West, 1947) § 617.24.
Mississippi
Fine up to $500. or imprisonment in county jail up to six months, or both.
Code Ann. (1942) §2288.
Missouri
Fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both.
Ann. Stat. (Vernon, 1953) §563.280.
Montana
Imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or fine up to $500, or both.
Rev. Code (1947) §§94-116, 94-3601 to 94-3603.
Nebraska
Fine of $50 to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both.
Rev. Stat. (1943) §28-921.
Nevada
Fine of $500 to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail from 6 months to 1 year,
or both.
Comp. Laws (Hillyer, 1929) §§ 9968, 10144.
New Hampshire
Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to 6 months, or both.
Rev. Laws (1942) ch. 441 §§ 14-17 ; am. Laws 1947 ch. 73 ; 1953 ch. 233.
New Jersey
Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment up to 3 years, or both.
Stat. Ann. (West, 1953) §§2A: 85-7, 2A : 115-2.
New York
Imprisonment from 10 days to 1 year, or fine of $150 to $1,000, or both, for
each offense.
Penal Law (McKinney, Supp. 1954) §1141.
North Carolina
Common law penalty for misdemeanors ; presumably by imprisonment in
county jail up to 1 year, or fine in the discretion of the court, or both.
Gen. Stat. Ann. (Michie, 1944) §§ 14-1 to 14-3, 14-189.
North Dakota
Fine of $5 to $100 ; or imprisonment in county jail up to 30 days, or both.
Rev. Code (1943) § 12-2109.
Ohio
Fine of $200 to $2,000, or imprisonment up to 7 years, or both.
Rev. Code (Page, 1954) §2905.34.
Oklahoma
Fine of $10 to $1,000, or imprisonment from 30 days to 10 years, or both.
Stat. Ann. (West, Supp. 1954) Tit. 21 § 1021.
52 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Oregon
Imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or fine up to $500, or both.
Rev. Stat. (1953) § 167.150.
Pennsylvania
Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to 1 year, or both.
Stat. Ann. (Purdon, 1945) Tit. 18 § 4524.
Rhode Island
Fine of $100 to $1,000, or imprisonment up to 2 years.
Gen. Laws (1938) ch. 610 § 13.
South Carolina
Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment up to 2 years, or both.
Code Ann. (1952) §16-414.
South Dakota
Fine up to $500, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both.
Code (1939) §§ 13.0607, 13.1722.
Tennessee
Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail up to 1 year, or both.
Code Ann. (Williams, 1934) §§ 10756, 11190.
Texas
Fine, up to $100.
Penal Code Ann. (Vernon, 1952) art. 526.
Utah
Fine up to $300, or imprisonment in county jail up to 6 months, or both. Cor-
porations may be fined up to $1,000.
Code Ann. (1953) §§76-1-16,73-39-1.
Vermont
Fine up to $200, or imprisonment up to 1 year.
Stat. (1947) §8490.
Virginia
Fine up to $500, or imprisonment up to 1 year, or both.
Code Ann. (Michie, 1950) §19-265; (Supp. 1952) §18-113.
Washington
Publishing detailed accounts of adultery, sexual crime, or of evidence of im-.
moral acts offered in court: Fine up to $1,000, or imprisonment in county jail
up to 1 year, or both.
Sale, possession, distribution, or exhibition of obscene material : Fine up to
$250, or imprisonment in county jail up to 90 days.
R. C. W. (1951) §§ 9.68,010, 9.68.020, 9.92.020, 9.92.030.
West Virginia
Fine up to $1,000, and imprisonment up to 1 year.
Code Ann. (1949) §6066.
Wisconsin
Imprisonment in county jail from 3 months to 1 year, or imprisonment in State
prison from 1 year to 5 years, or fine of $100 to $5,000.
Stat. (1951) §351.38.
Wyotning
Fine up to $100, to which may be added imprisonment in county jail up to
6 months.
Comp. Stat. (1945) §9-513.
NOBMAN G. SmAIX.
Chairman Kefauver. Incidentally, in that connection, a New York
law has been amended, an admirable effort to do something about this
problem, in the last legislature.
Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. Senator. And I will point out that
there are several other States that have seen the light in view of the
CITIES WHERE THE SALE, J)ISTRIBUTION, OR POSSESSION OF PORNOGRAPHIC LITERATURE
HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ON THE BASIS OF 207o RETURNS OF 500 SUBCOMMITTEE
QUESTIONAIRES
IMIKI) HTI-ATBS
1 O - S5(Fi.ce p. 521
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 53
mounting complaints by police officials, by the courts themselves, and
by the legislators themselves. We have had several statutes that
have been amended to make it more stringent, and also to take in
pornographic matter that was not previously covered by the laws.
For example, here are some of the quotations that we have received
from chiefs of police and other officials.
City of St. Paul, Minn.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, will you make it clear the
number of inquiries sent out to the chiefs of police ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. As you stated in the opening statement,
Senator, we sent out questionnaires to all cities in the United States
with a population of 100,000 or more. Besides that, we sent them to
the State capitols of the States in which the population does not quite
reach 100,000, and also to the larger cities in some States which do not
quite reach 100,000 population. (See map.)
We also sent them to the towns where there are colleges or other
large concentrations of youth, to see if there is any specific traffic
going into prep school areas and colleges, and Army camps, and so
forth.
From the returns that we have received, which are still incomplete
returns, I have these following quotations which will point out the
problem that the States have in dealing with this pornographic ma-
terial.
In St. Paul, Minn. :
I believe that penalties for the niauufacture of such materials should be so
strong as to discourage any repeating Ity violators. The State legislature is
now in the process of passing new laws tightening restrictions on this matter.
The State legislature of Wisconsin at the present time has under
consideration more stringent bills for violation of the obscenity laws of
the State.
In Minnesota, the police department of the city of Minneapolis
states :
In some cases, we do not feel that our laws, either State or local, are adequate
to cope with the so-called art magazines and photos. Without any question,
certain of these magazines would be detrimental to the minds of juveniles.
The police department of city of Worcester, Mass. : "Penalties are
not sufficient," is their answer to the question propounded :
In your opinion, are ii^nalties render«rJ for these offenses sufttcient to act as
a deterrent to committing the offense?
At this time, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to present a copy of
the questions that we sent out to these various police officials through-
out the country.
Chairman Kefaua^r. Let it be printed in the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5," and is as
follows:)
Exhibit No. 5
April 12, 19.55.
Mr
Chief of Police
Address
Dear Mr.
This subcommittee, in investigating the overall problem of juvenile delinquency,
has become concerned with certain special problems. One of these is the manu-
facture, distribution, sale, and possession of pornographic materials. A pre-
54 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
liminary survey of the problem revealed valuable information and secured leads
to persons connected vpith the traffic in this insidious filth.
Another special problem which lias an impact on youth is the so-called white-
slave racket, of which the subcommittee is seeking further information.
In order to determine the nature, extent, and national scope of these opera-
tions, answers to the following questions will prove most beneficial to the sub-
committee. Staff investigators will be available to follow up leads furnished
by you.
1. Please list the names (with aliases) and addresses of all persons arrested
and/or convicted in the past 2 years in your .inrisdiction of the production or
distribution of pornographic literature of any kind.
2. Will you make any photos, criminal records, or other information of the
above available to the subcommittee?
3. Please furnish names and addresses of accomplices of the above, even though
not arrested or charged with violation of the obscene-literature statutes or
ordinances.
4. Please give the names and addresses of owners of buildings where porno-
graphic literature was produced, stored, or sold.
5. Please furnish names and addresses of persons, other than above, known
to be engaged in manufacture or sale of pornography.
6. In your opinion, is traffic in pornogi-aphic material in your jurisdiction
extensive, medium, or light? Is it directed to adult or children?
7. In your opinion, are penalties rendered for these offenses sufficient to act
as a deterrent to committing the offenses?
8. In your opinion, are State and local laws adequate to cope with the problem?
9. Do you have samples of pornographic materials? If so, will you make them
availal)le for subcommittee staff inspection?
10. Do you have evidence or reason to believe that persons dealing in porno-
graphic materials are connected with a ring or other criminal activity such as
narcotics or white slavery?
11. Please furnish copies of any lists of customei's you may have confiscated
from persons dealing in such materials.
12. Please furnish names and addresses of all persons arrested in the past
2 years in your jurisdiction on charges of white slavery.
Any suggestions you might care to make on measures designed to curb the
traffic in pornography and/or white slavery will be greatly appreciated and will
be given serious consideration. The above questions are posed with the idea
that they will be a guide in submitting the information the subcommittee desires.
With kindest i>ersonal regards, I am,
Sincerely,
EsTES Kefauver, Chairman.
Mr. Chumbris. The chief of police from Gary, Ind. :
In our poinion, the sentences should be greater, especially where juveniles are
the purchasers.
Chief of police of Durham, N. C. :
In my opinion, the penalties rendered in these cases should be more severe —
and, further —
I believe that the State and local laws should be made stronger with respect to
obsence literature.
Chief of police, city of Norfolk, Va. :
In my opinion, State and local laws are adequate to cope with the problem,
however, I feel that the punishment should be more severe.
Chief of police of Dallas, Tex., states:
In my opinion. State and local laws are not adequate to cope with the problem.
Under Texas laws, violations of this type are claimed as misdemeanors.
And we find tliat to be the case in many States, that they are misde-
meanors and not felonies.
The city of Los Angeles has an interesting statement :
Under our present laws. It is sometimes difficult to obtain convictions that
discourage future participation by the defendant, because the sentence imposed is
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 55
quite often negligible. It is generally felt that if such a conviction would require
registration as a sex ofliender, the frequency of repeaters would drop noticeably.
Uniformity of the laws pertaining to pornography would be of great value insofar
as the liaison between police agencies is concerned. Many acts constituting
a violation of the Los Angeles municipal code sections are not illegal acts in
other States and cities.
As to our questionnaires, we also received some very pertinent in-
formation as to ho\Y (lie traffic reaches individual juveniles.
Rochester, N. V. :
Violator was charged with possessing indecent pictures. Officer found sub-
ject showing indecent pictures and books to a group of 13-year-old girls in front
of No. 14 School on University Avenue. Subject pleaded guilty.
This was in 1954. in March.
Columbus, Ohio :
Subject now in Ohio State Penitentiary — used juvenile girls for models to lewd
photographs.
I might point out tliat the State of Ohio has one of the stiffest penal-
ties for pornographv. It is up to 7 vears in the penitentiarv, and
$2,000 fine.
I would also like to point out that the subcommittee, in official busi-
ness in North Dakota, conferred with the judiciary committee of the
house, in which the opinion of the subcommittee was asked, and they
accepted the recommendations of the subcommittee, and they now
have one of the most stringent laws, most up-to-date laws, dealing
with pornography.
They even provide for the confiscation of the equipment, so that
the man cannot go back in business. I understand that that is one of
the fe^y States in the United States that does have that law in effect.
Chairman Kefauver. By "equipment" you mean not just films,
you would mean the projector and the others?
Mr. Chumbris. The projector, the automobile that transports the
pornography into other States, any type of equipment they may
have. Because we have found instances where the city police say:
We throw up our hands ; we grab a man with $.50,000 worth of pornography,
and his equipment, his car, and they burn up the pictures and so forth; they
give him back his car, they give him back his equipment, and right away he
is setting up business again in another town after he gets out of the jurisdic-
tion of that particular court.
Seattle, Wash., going back to places where juveniles are purchas-
ing or are being confronted with pornographic matter :
That where there is pornographic material, it is somewhat difficult to deter-
mine what is directed specifically to adults or to children. As long as it is
in a community, it appears to us that it is available to either.
Trenton, N. J. :
Subject sold indecent and obscene literature and pictures to juveniles. Con-
victed of violation of the crimes act. sentenced to 18 months.
Senator Langer. Mr. Chumbris, would you say that the North
Dakota law would be a model for other States to follow ?
Mr. Chumbris. I think so. Senator. I think it would be an excel-
lent law, especially the provision of confiscation of the equipment.
Our subcommittee last year introduced such a bill in the Congress
of the United States covering the District of Columbia, where we
■do now have jurisdiction, and that bill did not pass; but it will be
considered again by this Congress.
56 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. As a result of our hearings in North
Dakota, and Senator Langer, that the legislature out there did change
the law in North Dakota ; is that correct?
Mr. Chumbris. That is correct. We appeared before the judiciary
committee, and they follovvcd our suggestions. They asked us for
our suggestions, and they followed them to the letter.
Chairman Kefauver. All right.
Mr. Chumbris. Los Cruces, N. Mex. In answer to a question of
how much of the pornographic matter reaches minors, the chief of
police answered :
Approximately 75 percent of the pornograpbic material reaches minors.
Des Moines, Iowa :
As mentioned previously, some of these pornographic books were found in
one of our schools by a teacher who chanced to notice a group of boys looking
at them, they notified police and more of the booklets were found in subject's
store, hidden in the back counter. The boy who obtained the books had worked
at the store after school hours. Subject was arrested a second time for pos-
session of pornographic booklets.
In this instance some of the materials were found on children in
elementary schools, not junior high or high school, but elementary
schools.
On a complaint from a father who claimed a photograph dropped from his
daughter's school book, the subject was arrested and found to have 600 porno-
graphic pictures and 7 reels of film depicting lewdness at its worst. The sub-
ject stated that the salesman was driving a car with New York plates.
Yakima, Wash.
Chairman Kefaum^r. Just a minute. You spoke of a pornographic
material being found among kids in elementary school. Does it indi-
cate what age group that is ?
Mr. Chumbris. In this report it did not. This was taken from the
questionnaire that the chief of police sent us. But children of ele-
mentary school
Chairman Kefauver. That would be 12 or under, 13 or under?
Mr. Chumbris. That's right. From 6 to 12, 13 would be the high-
est age of the children in elementary school, I would assume.
Yakima, Wash. :
In December, 1954, it came to the attention of the police department that a
number of juveniles in one of the junior high schools had in their possession some
lewd pictures. Subject was arrested and charged with possession of obscene
photographs and fined $50 and given a 30-day jail sentence. Subject, an amateur
photographer, stated he borrowed the pictures and made a set of negatives. He
admitted printing over 400 of these pictures.
South Hadley, Mass. :
Pornographic material of lewd playing cards and pictures were strewn about
a pond that is frequented by children in the neighborhood. The ages of the
children were of school age — S to 10 years of age — and pupils of Woodlawn
School here in town. In all. I would say about 25 to 30 pictures were turned
over to the police department.
Minneapolis, Minn. :
This letter was from a criminologist : "I gather that the use of pornographic
movies is extensive among university and high school students in Minneapolis.
Matteson, in the State bureau of apprehension, says that he doubts whether
any college student goes through 4 years without being exposed at least once
to a pornographic movie. Recent graduates of the University of Minnesota con-
firmed this. If so, there is extensive distribution of which the jwlice are un-
aware or in which they are impotent."
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 57
Paducah, Ky. :
In answer to our question of estimate of pornographic material getting to
minors, the answer is, "about 75 percent."'
Manchester, N. H. :
Subject, aged 18, was arrested for giving obscene booljs away and for showing
obscene boolis. He pleaded nolo contendere to both counts and was placed on
probation for 6 months.
Raleigh, N. C. :
Subject was convicted of selling sexy comic books to high school students and
was given 12 months sentence. It seems to me that this could be more effectively
attacked on a nationwide basis, because that is the only basis whereby the
sources can be controlled.
This is still the quotation from the chief of police :
If this department may be of further service to you or your committee, 1
assure you that we shall endeavor to do so to the best of our ability.
Harrisonburg, Va. :
Recently we received a complaint of a svibject selling these materials, and
subject had been selling this material to high school students.
Wilmington, N, C. :
During the entire investigation of obscene literature we received information
that this literature had filtrated throughout the schools of the county and that
it could be purchased by anyone who applied for it from the Finer or the Carolina
Camera Shops.
West Allis, Wis. :
Subject had 22 obscene films in his possession. He was showing them in his
basement, and 12 juveniles came to our attention who had viewed these films.
Boy 12 years old picked up with a telescope that had a picture of a nude
woman in it. This boy took this from the bureau of his older bi'other, who had
purchased it from an unknown man in a tavern.
Boy 17 with two obscene pictures, origin unknown. Boy was picked up as
a prowler, was referred to juvenile authorities.
St. Louis, Mo. :
The pornographic material has been known to find its way into schools, as
was true in the case of three individuals who were charged with sale and dis-
tribution of pornographic literature.
Eddyville, Ky. :
Pornographic literature is being sold to minors at numerous gasoline filling
stations in this area.
Burlington, N. J. :
Pornographic literature is being sold at quite a number of the newsstands.
Nine minors have committed Illegal sexual acts as a result of reading this
material.
New York, N. Y. :
Pornographic literature is being >'old at several bookstores in New York
City.
Philadelphia, Pa. :
Pornographic literature has stirred up male youth, who consequently go out
and commit "gang rape." This mass rape is an integral part of the juvenile gang
warfare system. Its frequency is underestimated, and that is because many of
the victims are afraid to report these crimes to the authorities.
Boulder, Colo. :
What percentage of this traflBc would you estimate reaches minors?
58 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
The answer :
If any traffic, would suppose that most of it is among schoolchildren.
City of Long Beach, Calif. :
Ti-afRc in pornographic material is light in this jurisdiction, and it is mainly-
directed to adults —
meaning that still some of it goes to juveniles.
Buffalo, N. Y. :
Our last i-eferral to the youth bureau of the Buffalo Police Department was in
connection with the distribution of pornographic literature and obscene comics
among schoolchildren in the local area.
Boston, Mass. :
Subject was found guilty of rai>e of a 16-year-old girl, and investigation of
premises revealed 50 photos of pornographic nature. There are other instances
of individuals being charged with sex offenses and exhibiting obscene material to
9- and 10-year-old girls.
Cleveland, Ohio :
Nude sequence photographs found in subject's house, with girls in photos
obviously juveniles.
Baton Rouge, La. :
Examination of case records (three such cases) tend to show, as does past
experience in our department, that the nature of tliis pornographic literature is
reaching students and children of junior high and high school age brackets.
Denver, Colo. :
Subject charged with attempting to molest two teen-age girls, was found to
have six small pulp magazines of pornographic nature in the glove compartment
of his car.
This bears out, Mr. Chairman, the opening statement where J. Edgar
Hoover states that the growing sex crimes committed by 17- and 18-
year-old boys — they read the stuff, and they go out and molest these
young girls.
Several cities, such as the city of Roanoke, Va., state tliat they are
unable to say what percentage of the pornographic traflic Avould reach
minors, indicating there tliat it is there, but they cannot break it down
as to how much goes to adults and how much goes to minors.
Phoenix, Ariz. :
In answer to our question of whether traffic is directed to adults or children,
the answer was directed to juveniles.
The police further state :
It is our suggestion that parents of juveniles be impressed with the necessity
of training their children to report any display of or attempt to sell them
pornographic literature.
I think that is a sentence that can be well borne in mind by the
parents of America.
Now we come to advertisements by mail. We are going to have
witnesses from the Post Office I)e])artment who, will give us their
problems and the full picture; but I would like to point out that in
this mailing of pornographic material, first they have these name lists
where the companies, A, B, C, for instance, at a certain address, will
send out these circulars. Tlie circulars are very, very suggestive.
The question is. How to stop that advertising from getting to these
minors, because we are receiving many complaints.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 59
Name lists is a bio; business. Some of them are very, very legiti-
mate; they are very legitimate name lists of juveniles used by baby-
clothing stores and baby-food operators, and so forth; but somehow
or other these certain individuals will obtain these name lists from
legitimate sources, by hook or crook, and then take and turn around
and sell these name lists and make a terrific amount of money.
In one of the cases that we will present during the course of these
hearings I personally examined the material that was contiscated by
the police department, and they had a hie case that is almost as big as
some of our governmental agencies, full of name lists that this man
had at his command, over 100,000 names of different persons, and he
concentrated as much as possible, as much as he could, on juveniles.
I mean, that seemed to be the big business to them.
In order to see how that operation went into effect, the subcom-
mittee used a procedure used by the Post Office Department. A defi-
nite name and address was taken, a letter was written to those people
who advertised in these magazines of these type of photos and films
that are supposed to be of a shady nature. It was written in the hand-
writing of a juvenile, on high-school stationery, sent to these adver-
tisers. None of the advertisers attempted to find out whether the
letter which was written on high-school stationery in juvenile hand-
writing was a person underage or overage. He immediately sent the
order that was requested.
That type of advertising is a headache to the Post Office Depart-
ment, and I am sure they will bring it out in full during the course
of these hearings.
That name-list business is big business, and it has stumped the
law-enforcement agencies as to how best treat it.
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us in a little more detail how the name
list works. These pornographic outfits get the name lists and they
send something not only suggestive literature, but they don't exactly
describe what it is ?
Mr. CiiUMBRis. That's right. They give you an idea that it is of
the lewdest type, and the person answer, and the first time they
will send you back something that will be, let's say, a nude picture
which they think that they can get by without prosecution from
the law.
Then what they hope to do is establish a relationship, and the next
order will be for more of the pornographic, until finally, we believe
and we do hope that we will be able to establish that before we com-
plete our investigation on pornography, that the first orders are
come-ons, and finally they go into the lewd filthy, pornographic mate-
rial. And this goes to juveniles.
Chairman Kefauver. A big part of it is with juveniles?
Mr. Chumbris. A great amount of it is with juveniles.
As a matter of fact, one of the pictures that we received was of a
boy in the nude, part of it was blacked out, but that boy couldn't
have been more than 15 years old, from his appearance.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir, v»nll you proceed.
Mr. Cnu^rBRis. The other ma]i that you see there [indicating] on
the board, the smaller map is the one dealing with returns that we
have received from police officers showing traffic to juveniles alone;
I mean traffic to juveniles. So you can see how well it is spread
65263—55 5
QQ JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
out throughout the country, and that is only a 20-pei'cent return on
the questionnaries that we have received.
I have just one more topic to discuss, Mr. Chairman, and that is a
specific case that I am going to present here this morning, one in
which the police officers of that city are not here to testify, and since
I personally made the investigation and know, examined the court
records and talked with the police officers, I know of it personally of
my own knowledge, and I would like to explain that case to you now.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Chumbris, on this mail-order business which you
have been discussing, I think also involved in that business are a
number of dildoes, d-i-1-d-o-e-s, as they are referred to in the trade,
of a sexual nature, that have been going out in the mails to youngsters
as young as 12 and 13, of which I believe we have evidence in our
files. . .
I think also you have within your information, it could be within
your possession this morning, a number of letters advertising these
books, the messages from the parents, showing the widespread opera-
tion of it, concerning Gallatin, Tenn., which deals in this material;
concerns New York and Los Angeles, and various other cities aroimd
tlie country.
Do you have any more information on the mailing lists? I know
that you referred to baby foods and diai^er sliops. I don't think that
the mailing list would be obtained from baby foods and diaper shops
for the mailing of this material.
Mr. Chumbris. That's one of the leads. The baby foods and diaper
shops have legitimate name lists. Somehow or other these people who
oi)erate in mailing lists will get some of these names from that list.
For example, in these sample letters that we sent out they were sent
to certain, let's say, three different companies. Then a month or so
later 4 or 5 companies with whom no correspondence was had sud-
denly got hold of the names, which indicates that there is a method
of transferring names, exchanging names, or in some instances it
might be — well, I couldn't exactly explain what their method of
procedure is, and that is one of the problems that we would like to
ex))lore.
Mr. BoBO. In your investigation with this subcommittee, is it not
true that we have uncovered instance after instance where children
would answer a magazine ad, in either a comic book or a legitimate
trade magazine, and at a later date he would receive through the mail
advertisements for material of a pornographic nature?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct.
Mr. BoBO. That might be mailable, and then at a later time the
more lewd stuff would be presented to him ?
Mr. Chumbris. That's right. And how they would get those names
we have not definitely establisiied that; but it is being clone.
ISIr. Bobo. Presumably a mailing list from answers to adver-
tisements.
Mr. Chumbris. Yes.
Mr. Bobo. All right. Suppose you continue.
Mr. Chumbris. In this case, the Saxton case, which was in Pitts-
burgh, Pa., one Louis Stevens Saxton, of 4204 Verona Boulevard,
Pittsburgh, Pa., was arrested on October 25 of 1951 and charged with
the manufacture and statewide distribution and sale of obscene
literature
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY Ql
Mr. BoBo. Mr. Chumbris, is this the case that you are speaking of
now, the man who was operating from the jail cell ?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. Then after he was convicted ?
Chairman Kefauver. Let's get his name again now.
Mr. Chumbris. His name is Louis Stevens Saxton.
Chairman Kefauver. You have his criminal record ; you have the
official records?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes. We have his record; we have his mug;
everything was furnished to us by the police department.
He was convicted and was serving time. While he was in jail he
contacted an accomplice known as Clarence Meade Barnes, who was
on the outside. Clarence Meade Barnes continued the operations on
the outside while Saxton masterminded from the jail. He was also
indicted with Barnes on that particular offense and was also sentenced.
Chairman Kefauver. Was that a big operation ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes ; it was quite a big operation. The interesting
part of the operation was that besides manufacturing the pornographic
material they actually acted as distributors; they were known dis-
tributors ni the East who would make big drops of this particular
material in the Pittsburgh area, and Saxton would be tlie person who
would handle it.
For instance, in a letter from Saxton to Barnes, which was written
in code and then later Barnes explained to
Mr. BoBo. Mr. Chumbris, do you have a copy of that letter in your
files ?
Air. Chumbris. That's up in the files of the subcommittee.
Barnes, in finally revealing tlie full statement to Lieutenant Carna-
han of the police department of Pittsburgh, stated that the letter was
in code. For instance, they would use the word "jeAvelry." Every
time they used the word "jewelry" it referred to pornography. If it
said '^$50 worth of jewelry," it meant that it was $50 worth of pornoo--
raphy. If it mentioned "John owes $50 for jewelry," it meant that
John owed $50 for pornography, "Will you go bv and pick up the
cJiecks, ' and so forth.
In it the actual operations were explained by Barnes to the police
officer, how Saxton had him go ahead and print these "Maggie and
Jiggs" books, and Barnes went ahead and did it. He admitted that
he went ahead and produced it.
Mr. BoBo. When you speak of "Maggie and Jiggs" books, Mr.
Chumbris, I think you should explain what a "Maggie and Jio-o-s"
book is. *"=
Mr. Chumbris. Yes. I mentioned earlier, when I was explainincr
the different types of pornography, the "Maggie and Jiggs" books are
two- by- fours, they are books 2 inches by 4 inches ; they are also known
as 8 pages, because it contained 8 thin pages. They are caricatures
they are cartoons. They usually take people from the comic strips'
or famous movie stars, and they portray them in very lewd, perverted
acts.
T.-^?^^l^'"^'^^^ Kefau\t^r. You are not getting us mixed up with Bud
±1 islier 5
Mr. Chumbris. No. That is very legitimate operation. Not only
Maggie and Jiggs, but almost every known legal comic strip in the
business, their characters are being stolen and placed into these filthv.
lewd books. '' '
^2 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefau^t.r. Plagiarized, is that what you call it ?
Mr. Chumbris. That's right.
Chairman KEFAm'ER. I think it would be well to get this letter and
put it in the record, and let the press see it.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any further questions on the Saxton
case ?
Chairman KE^Au^^=:R. How long is this letter that you have ?
Mr. Chumbris. Well, the first letter is about a page long, and the
questions and answers are approximately three pages long.
Chairman Kefauver. What are the questions and answers?
Mr. Chumbris. That was the interview.
For instance, he says, "What is your full name?" This is the
interrogation of the witness. And then he explained the full opera-
tion.
For instance — I may read part of it
Mr. BoBO. Would you read the letter into the record?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes. [Reading:]
Dear Bud : Sorry you were not able to get over to the hospital before I left.
Alice said that you and Margaret were over, and that you called last week.
Do hope you and' the family are all well. No doubt, I will have to return to the
hospital and have my leg amputated ; it is much worse, and nothing can be done
here ; it is a tough decision to have to make.
And I do believe that that means that he would like to get back into
the business, when he is referring to a statement of that type.
Did want to ask you a few questions. You do not have to write and answer
them, but I remember a few things that may help out in a business way. Did
you ever get the color formula from Mr. Wilner? Believe he has to have it in a
week or so, for you. How is your friend in Kinsman? You said you talked
with him, and he wanted to get 4 of your $8 size watches.
Mr. Martin (consultant to subcommittee) . Mr. Chumbris, will you
show the relationship between the reference to the $8 watch and the
corresponding information from his accomplice which established
what he means ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes. He says here, for instance, the next state-
ment that he has —
How is your friend in Kinsman? You said you talked with him and he
wanted to get 4 of your $8 size watches. No doubt they will cost him $30 each,
but they are worth it.
Now, who is Kinsman, and what does he mean by "these watches"
and the price? Kinsman is a man from Ohio, and as far as the
watches, it means 8-millimeter film, movies, and the price is $30 each.
That's the way they go all the way through the letter.
Chairman Kefauver. Put the letter and the questions and answers
into the record ; let them be printed in the appendix and made part of
the record. The letter is received.
(The information referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6," and is as
follows:)
February 3, 1953.
To : Mr. C. M. Barnes, 514 Cato Street, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Dear Bud: Sorry you were not able to get over to the hospital before I left.
Alice said that you and IMargaret were over, and that you called last week. Do
hope you and the family are all well. No doubt. I will have to return to the
hospital and have my leg amputated ; it is much worse, and nothing can be done
here ; it is a tough decision to have to make. Did want to ask you a few ques-
tions. You do not have to write and answer them, but I remembered a few
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 63
things that may help out in a business way. Did you ever get the color formula
from Air. Wilner? Believe he was to have it in a week or so for you. How is
your friend in Kinsman? Yon said you talked with him, and he wanted to get
4 of your $S-size watches. No doubt they will cost him $30 each, but they are
worth it. Did Ben ever drop around? Oh, I owe Nick $17.50 in case he wants
any jewelry. Have you seen Whitey lately? You should see him some evening
when you go bowling. Papy, no doubt, has not seen the advertising match dis-
play, or has he? Wish yovi would call Jonney, the bakery salesman, up, or
Margaret could call. The best time is on a Saturday morning between 10:30
and 11. The name you have. He can use those five $16 watches at $30 plus the
2 special ones you have in the same size. He said he would need them. The
specials I told him you wanted $70 for the 2. Did your other friend collect that
$50 for the check that was returned? Should Margaret call Jonney this Satur-
day, have her tell him to give Alice the $50 he owes me for perfume, as I need it
for insurance payments ; and he should pay Margaret for the watches he takes.
Did your friend finish all the advertising matches, less what he spoiled? You
should keep count of what you receive. You could pay him what is due when
Jonney pays for the jewelry. Give Alice any balance due. By the way, I know-
that George, your pal in Murrysville, was asking about you. I told him I would
tell you. Would you write a letter to Mrs. Sofle Levy, 2092 Tinker i;>rive. Ocean-
side, N. Y., and explain to her that I did not know about the insurance check
until you advised me? Tell her that as soon as possible tlie amount will be sent
you for the balance due on the fur coat. Also tell her it would not be advisable
to come to Pittsburgh during the bad weather, but you will let her know. Hope
you get to see your pal from Kinsman. Of course you could call him up. Keep
Alice advised, but be sure and have Jonney leave the $50 with her ; and his 'phone
number I believe you have. Should you.be going out past Whitey's, tell Alice
to give you two bottles of perfume to give to his wife. Say hello for me. HoiDe
you understand everything. The fireworks display business should begin to book
their orders soon. Sure could use a good year. Best wishes and regards to all
of you, and get your match advertising finished and pay it ofl". Did you pay the
bili at Shield's Rubber Co.. How's the car doing? You could look at the ther-
mostat in Alice's car. It does not work. Also, the trunk door lock. Write me
when you can.
Yours always.
Lew.
P. S. — Those 2 special watches I told him were $70.
This is the statement of Clarence Meade Barnes, white, aged 42, of 514 Cato
Street, Pittsburgh, Pa. It is taken in the office of Assistant Superintendent of
Police Adam A. Geisler under the direct examination of Acting Lt. Allen Carna-
han, the interrogator and James Patton, city detectives. Narcotic Squad. Also
present in the room while the statement is being typed is Margaret Barnes, wife
of Clarence Barnes. J. H. Gamble is the typist. Statement is begun at 4:05
p. m., February 23, 1953.
Q. What is your full name? — A. Clarence Meade Barnes.
Q. How old are you? — A. 42.
Q. AYhere do you live? — A. 514 Cato Street. Pittsburgh, Pa.
Q. Are you married or single"? — A. Married.
Q. Are you employed? — A. Yes.
Q. Where? — A. Westinghouse Electric Corp., East Pittsburgh, Pa.
Q. Now, Clarence, do you understand that you are under arrest by this de-
partment charged with the manufacture, possession, and sale of obscene liter-
ature, pornographic pictures, obscene movies and books'? — A. I know I'm here
because I had that "junk."
Q. AVe are going to ask you to give us a statement concerning this charge
against you. Before you give us this statement in your own words in answer to
our questions, we wish to advise you of your rights. You will not be forced to
say anything here, but what you do say may be used against you or for you at the
time of your trial in a court of law. Do you understand this? — A. All right.
Q. We also wish to advise you that you have the right to secure legal counsel,
an attorney, if you so desire. Do you iniderstand this'.'' — A. Yeah.
Q. And now that you understand what we are doing here and your rights have
been explained to you, are you still willing to go along with us and to answer the
questions in your own language that we may ask you? — A. That's right, I'm
willing.
Q. Clarence, this obscene material that we confiscated from your home on
Saturday, February 21, 1953 ; do you own that? — A. No.
Q. Who owns it? — A. Lew Saxton.
64 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Q. I am goinj; to show you Pittsburgh police photograph No. 12979 and ask you
if you can identify that pictui-e? — A. Yeah, that's Lew Saxton.
Q. How long have you known Saxton? — A. About 3 years, I think. I trans-
acted business with him before he went to the vet's hospital at Aspinwall.
Q. How long have you had this obscene merchandise in your home? — A. Since
about a week before Christmas of 19.">2.
Q. Explain in your own words how he contacted you. — A. By telephone from
the vet's hospital to my home.
Q. Then did you go to the veteran's hospital to see him? — A. Twice.
Q. Explain your conversation there, and what he asked you to do in regards to
this material. — A. He asked me to take it into my home and keep it there until
he was released by the police. Also, to manufacture novelty named "Maggie and
Jiggs" with no price given on manufacture. He said he would take care of me.
That was the first visit, and on the second visit, he wanted me to manufacture
of French Ticklers, still no price given.
Q. Did you asiree to do this? — A. Yeah.
Q. When were these two visits that you made to the hospital? — A. Thanks-
giving Day, and one, 2 weeks later.
Q. Did he give you any of the material at that time? — A. No.
Q. When was this material delivered to your home? — A. Johnny, the baker,
brought it on a Saturday, the first part of December.
Q. Ho brought all of the stuff, Johnny, the baker brought all of the merchan-
dise?-— A. No ; he didn't bring all of the stiiff, he brought the stuff for the French
Ticklers, the rubbei'S ; for the rubbers.
Q. Who is this Johnny, the baker, and do you know what his telephone num-
ber is? — A. No ; I don't know his last name, all I know him by is Johnny.
Q. Do you know where Johnny got this rubber for the French Ticklers that he
brought to you? — A. From Lew Saxton at the vti^'s hospital.
Q. Was this cut up in small pieces? — A. All ready cut; ready to assemble.
Q. Who else brought oliscene material to your home? — A. His first name is
Jack ; that's all I know him by.
Q. Anyone else that you can name that brought this type of material into your
home? — A. Just that Mr. Levy.
Q. Do you know where he lives? — A. Yes.
Q. Where? — A. Oceanside, N. Y.
Q. What did he bring to your home? — A. Cartoons, movies, cards, French
Ticklers, obscene pictures.
Q. Did you pay for any of this material? — A. No.
Q. Did Saxton tell you what you were to do with it? — A. Hold it, and he would
call me when somebody was to pick up.
Q. Did you ever collect any money for any of this material? — A. $12, I think
it was.
Q. From who?- — A. I don't remember.
Q. Did anybody pick any of this stuff up at your home? — A. Yes, Johnny, the
baker salesman.
Q. Did you receive a letter from Lew Saxton from the Allegheny County
Workhouse dated February 3, 1953? — A. Yes.
Q. I am going to ask you some questions about this letter; first one thing (is
this a copy of that letter you received) ? — A. Yes.
Q. Clarence, in one statement in this letter it says, "Did you ever get the
color formula from Mr. Wilner, believe he was to have it in a week or so for you" ;
what did Saxton mean by "color formula"? — A. When ticklers are finished, they
are dipped into a color so that the end of the tickler is whatever color you want it.
That was what he meant.
Q. The next statement that he has he says, "How is your friend Kinsman, you
said you talked with him, and he wanted to get 4 of your $8 size watches, no
doubt they will cost him .$30 each, but they are worth it." Now, who is Kinsman,
and what does he mean by these watches and the price? — A. Kinsman is a man
from Ohio; as for watches, it means 8-mm movies (millimeter). The price is
$30 each.
Q. Are these obscene movies? — A. Yes.
Q. Did Kinsman get these movies? — A. No.
Q. The next sentence in the letter, Saxton asks, "Did Ben ever drop around?";
who is Ben, and did he ever drop around ; did you ever sell him anything? —
A. He's the individual who delivered rubbers to be manufactured into ticklers
to my home. He never dropped around ! I never sold him anything.
Q. Do you know Ben's last name? — A. No.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 65
Q. The next statement, "Oh, I owe Nick $17.50, in case he wants any jewelry" ;
who is NiclvV — A. I don't Ivnow the last name ; he lives in the Turtle Creek Valley ;
I have his telephone number at home.
Q. What does Saxton mean that he "owes Nick $17.50 in case he wants any
jewelry"? — A. Referring: to jewelry means merchandise of obscene material.
Q. Did you give Nick any obscene pictures? — A. Yeah,
Q. Approximately when? — A. February 3, 1953.
Q. IIow much merchandise did he receive from you? — A. About $17.50 plus
about $6.50 more which he said he would pay later.
Q. Did you do any business Avith a man named Whitey that Saxton mentions
in his letter? — A. I went to see him at the gasoline station on Route 22; it's
called Gravity Fill : about 6 miles past Wilkinsburg, past the Turnway Inn.
Q. Did you sell Whitey any merchandise? — A. Cards and matches
Q. I'.y liiatches, you mean obscene matches? — A. Obscene matches, the same
with the cards.
Q. The next statement in Saxton's letter says, "Papy, no doubt, has not seen
the advertising match display, or has he?"; who is I'apy, and where does he
live? — A. I think he owns a bar in East Pittsburgh.
Q. What does Saxton mean by the "advertising match display"?— A. He means
matches with obscene pictures on them.
Q. Where did you get these matches? — A. Were delivered to my home by a
fellow named Jack.
Q. Did you collect any money from Whitey for matches? — A. Yes; about $20;
was used to pay Jack for matches.
Q. Did you order these matches made up, or did Saxton ? — A. Saxton.
Q. The next statement in Saxton's letter states : "wish you would call Johnny
the bakery salesman up, the best time is in the morning between 10 : 30 and 11 : 00 ;
the name you have he can use those five $16 watches at $30 plus the 2 special ones
you have in the same size" ; will you explain that statement in your own words? —
A. Did not contact Johnny. In regards to five $16 watches means, 16-mm. movies ;
that's obscene movies ; 2 specials is the same thing.
Q. Next Saxton says : "Did your other friend collect that $50 for the check that
was returned," what does he mean by this in this statement? — The $50 was for
merchandise received ; the check liounced, but he finally made it good.
Q. Who was the check from ; who signed the check? — A. I don't know his name.
Q. The next statement in the letter says: "Should Margaret call Johnny this
Saturday, have her tell him to give Alice the $50 he owes me for perfume as I
need it for insurance payments, and he should pay Margaret for the watches he
takes"; what does he mean by this statement? — A. In the first place, Margaret
didn't make any contact with him. $50 means price of merchandise received from
Mr. Saxton.
Q. Next he says : "Did your friend finish all the advertising matches less what
he spoiled, you should keep count of what you receive, you could pay him what
is due when Johnny pays for the jewelry, give Alice any balance due" ; Clarence
explain that statement? — A. The advertising matches are not finished; in the
second place, Johnny did not buy.
Q. Who is Alice, and where does she live? — A. Alice is Lew Saxton's girl friend ;
lives on Homewood Avenue.
Q. Does she handle any obscene material? — A. No.
Q. The next statement : "I know that your pal George in Murrysville was asking
about you. I told him I would tell you" ; who is George, and what is his connec-
tion with this ring? — A. George was a possible buyer but did not buy any
merchandise.
Q. Did you try to sell him some merchandise? — ^A. Yeah, Lew sent me out there.
Q. Now the next statement : "Would write a letter to Mrs. Sofie Levy, 2992
Tincker Drive, Oceanside, N. Y., and explain to her what I did not know about
the insurance check until you advised me ; tell her that as soon as possible, the
amount will be sent you for the balance due on the fur coat" ; Clarence, will you
explain what Saxton means by this statement? — A. I wrote a letter explaining that
Lew did not know the insurance check was no good ; that he would pay the amount
as soon as possible plus the balance.
Q. What does he mean by the fur coat? — A. Obscene merchandise.
Q. He further states in the letter to "tell Mrs. T^evy it would not be advisable
to come to Pittsburgh during the bad weather, but you will let her know" ; what
does Saxton mean by that? — A. He (Lew Saxton) could not contact Levy here
in Pittsburgh.
66 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Q. He next says : "should you be goins out past Whitey's, tell Alice to g:ive
you two bottle of perfume to give to his wife" ; what does he mean by this,
statement? — A. I suppose he actually means perfume there; I didn't stop at
Alice's at all.
Q. Have you ever taken any money to Lew Saxton? — A. No.
Q. Is there anything that you can add to this statement? — A. [None.]
Q. Clarence, after you and your wife have had an opportunity to read this
statement over, and if you tind that it is true to the best of your knowledge,
are you willing to sign it and to swear that you have told the truth? — A. Yeah.
Q. Have you been treated properly by Superintendent Geisler and the officers
in the detective division of the Pittsburgh Police Department? — A. -Very true.
Q. And the answers to the questions have been typed just as you have given
them and are your own words, is that right? — A. Right, it is correct.
(Signed) Clarence M. Barnes, Jr.
This statement has been read by the deponent, Clarence Meade Barnes, after
which, it was sworn and subscribed to before me, the undersigned authority on
this 23d day of February, 1953.
Hector R. Mariani,
Notary Public.
Al.LEN CaRNAHAN,
Witness.
James Patton,
Witness.
Mrs. C. M. Barnes, Jr.,
Witness.
ADDED INFORMATION, 6:03 P. M., FEBRUARY 23, 1958, VOLUNTEERED BY BARNES
On Thanksgiving Day, received $40. and some odd cents from Lew Saxton to
pay for a punch press for assembling "Maggie & Jiggs." Press purchased from
Star Stapling & Products Company, 929 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh. There was
also 2,000 eyelets on the order received for the above amount. Press ordered by
Lew Saxton, picked up be me.
(This additional information typed hereon by J. H. Gamble, Stenographer.)
(Signed) J. H. Gamble.
[seal] H. R. Mariana.
(Signed) J. H. Gamble,
Stenographer.
Chairman Kefau^tsr. Go ahead, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. In conclusion, I would like to summarize, since the
subcommittee has started its investigations and has had a certain
amount of pornographic discussion at some of the community hear-
ings throughout the country, we have been able to accomplish certain,
what I think, are successful results.
For instance, as I explained earlier, in working with the Houston
police, that big raid of the Southwest distributor was made. As I
mentioned earlier, the North Dakota statute was changed to give it
one of the most
Mr. Bono. Will you let me ask you there. Are you speaking of
the Police Department of Houston, Tex., or the Sheriff's Department
of Houston County, Tex. ?
Mr. Chumbris. It was the Sheriff's Department of Houston County,
Tex.
And the North Dakota statute was changed as I stated.
Further, on one of the trips that I was making on this porno-
graphic investigation, in Michigan a grand jury went into the ques-
tion of pornographic literature. I went over and talked to the
district attorney and to the district judge there, explained to him
what we were trying to do. They gave us all of the cooperation that
we could possibly expect. They gave us a full report of their findings.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 67
In many areas, civic and religious organizations united to conduct
cleanup campaigns, to clean up this pornographic mess that has been
sweeping throughout the country, not only the dirty, lewd pornog-
raphy that we are talking about today, but they are also attacking
the borderline pornogra])hy, and some of the ])inup magazines that
are found on the newsstands, especially those around the schools and
the churches.
Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, two questions.
In your survey and the returns you have gotten from the police
chiefs is there any question about that pornography among juve-
niles— and that is what we are concerned with here — that it does
have a degrading effect, leading to the marring of the lives of many
of our young people, and also increasing the amount of juvenile and
criminal activity among children?
Mr. Chumbris. There is no question about it. I think that prac-
tically
Chairman Kefauver. Is that the concensus of all the police chiefs?
j\Ir. CiiiorBRis. Every one of them. They even went so far as to
say that this is one filthy mess that has got to be cleaned up, and
that's why they are so anxious about more stringent laws and more
severe punishment, because most of them will say, "I don't want my
children to run into any of this."
Chairman Kefauver. Is it also the result of your inquiries to show
that as the extent of the distribution of pornography among the
juveniles increases in a given section, you have a corresponding in-
crease in deliquency and sex crimes?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct; absolutely.
Chairman Kefauver. Along the same line as set forth by Mr.
Hoover on a national scale ?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, sir, can yon give us any estimate — be-
fore that. Does your investigation show that over the last few years
the publication and the distribution of ]^ornogra]:>hy among children,
teen-agers, has been substantially on the increase?
Mr. Chitmbris. From the information that I have received there is
a definite increase of pornography going to children, and there is a
definite increase of pornography that is being distributed through-
out the United States. And they are bringing in a new type of pornog-
raphy.
Some people are remarking about the number of pornographic
records, pornographic phonograph records spreading out throughout
the country.
Chairman Kefauver. And this is in all parts of the United States,
even Tennessee I believe you said ?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. I believe we have another chart
there, the Baltimore, the Houston, and the one from the South.
Chairman Kefauver. Finally, sir, can you give any estimate of the
size of this lousiness?
Mr. Chumbris. Well, the one in Baltimore — this wnll portray the
size. If I may mention it from here [indicating], this is a point where
it started. One shipment
Chairman Kefauvfj?. That is Baltimore ?
Mr. Chumbris. That's right. And all of these big blocks indicate
where this shipment went by railway express. The total value of just
(58 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
one sliipment was $30,000 declared value, with an estimated retail
value of $250,000. Mind you, that's just one shipment that that man
made.
Mr. BoBO. Isn't that 291 railway express shipments, Mr. Chumbris?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes.
Mr. Martin. I think, Mr. Chumbris, what you want to say is that
these are shipments from just one source.
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct. From the Baltimore source.
Chairman Kefauver. This fellow got convicted the other day, did
he not ?
Mr. Chumbris. He was convicted in Federal court in Baltimore.
Chairman Kefauver. What is his name ? I think this is an inter-
esting case; we ought to have some description of it later on. Are
you, or will somebody else describe what happened in this Baltimore
case ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes. Well, we will have the assistant United States
attorney who will be here; and we have policemen, the inspector from
Washington, and Sergeant Brown from the Detroit Police Depart-
ment, who will give specific cities and the operations from those cities.
This [exhibiting] is a picture as it was taken of these packages as
they were impounded, with the addresses where they are going. And
the different value is illustrated that Avas declared for the various
shipments.
Mr. Martin. Mr. Chumbris, this photograph, as I understand it,
represents one of the 291 shipments?
Mr. Chumbris. That's correct.
Chairman Kefauver. And one of the 291 shipments apparently has
87,9G0 pieces of pornography.
Mr. Chumbris. That's right.
Photograph of seizures by the United States (Jovernment of 87,900 pieces of
pornography
Chairman KEFAU^^ER. These pictures and charts will all be made
exhibits in the record.
Go ahead, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Chumbris, have you received any information as to
the size or the volume, dollarwise, outside of this one case here, as to
what this traffic miglit be throughout the United States ?
Mr. Chumbris. Well, I have asked that question and because of the
fact that — let me answer it first with one illustration.
We asked the customs officials
Chairman Kefauver. They will be here to testify ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. We asked tliem a question, how much
comes into the United States? And they said that, "We are only
able to ascertain or get hold of 5 percent of tlie traffic." So 95 percent
gets by them.
The same thinir can be applied to the various police departments.
They can't possibly estimate at this particular time, I don't think a
complete survey has been made or might not be able to be made because
of the fact that it is just getting so gigantic, and every day we are run-
ning into distributors like Soloday, for instance, who has a $250,000
retail value from just that one outlet.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, will some witness other than you de-
scribe the fact that from the United States is shipped a lot of pornog-
OPERATION 50L0DAY
291 RAILWAY EXPRESS SHIPMENTS IN 1953
C.O.D. OR DECLARED VALUE- $30,000.22
RETAIL vALUE"^50P00.:2g
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
69
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70 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
raphy to other countries, and from other countries a lot is shipped
to us?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes. That will be taken care of by one of our other
witnesses.
Chairman KEFAu^^R. Very well. Is there anything else?
Senator Langer, do you have any questions to ask Mr. Chambris ?
Senator Langer. Mr. Witness, what is a bondage photo ?
Mr, Chumbris. A bondage photo are these photos where the girl
wears very little clothing, practically nude, and usually their hands
and their legs are bound together either by chain or by rope, and they
are known as bondage photos.
Senator Langer. I inquired because you say "nudes and bondage
photos." I never heard that term used before. I thank you. That's
all, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you, Mr. Chumbris.
Our next witness, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Father Daniel Egan.
STATEMENT OF FATHER DANIEL EGAN, FRANCISCAN PRIEST,
GRAYMOOR, GARRISON, N. Y.
Chairman Kefauver. No one can ever question your veracity, but
if you mention any names I think I should place you under oath.
Father Egan. I won't mention any names.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well.
Father Egan, it is a pleasure for the chairman to see you again.
I know over the course of a long time your interest in the young boys
and young people, especially with the problem with which we are
dealing here today. We are grateful to you for coming here and
giving us the benefit of your experience and findings on this important
problem affecting our children.
Mr. Bobo, do you want to ask Father Egan any preliminary
questions ?
Mr. BoBO. Yes. I would like to ask Father Egan briefly some
questions, describing your work. Father, that you had and the contact
you have with the young people.
Father Egan. I am a priest, ordained just 10 years. In the past
10 years I have been specializing in high school and teen-age missions.
During the course of a year I might travel from Louisville to
Cincinnati, to Cleveland, to Detroit, to Piochester, to Boston, to Brook-
lyn, to the South, to city after city. Today I go to Boston.
Chairman Kefauver. Before you tell your experiences, Mr. Bobo,
for the record, because we can always see the Father, but the record
must be presented. Let's get how old he is, who he is, how long he
has been a Father, what his assignment is.
Father Egan. I will be 11 this year. I am ordained 10l^ years.
Mr. BoBO. In what order are you ordained ?
Father Egan. I am a Franciscan, from a monastery at Graymoor,
Garrison, N. Y.
Mr. BoBO. And how long have you been ordained?
Father Egan. 101/2 years.
I am on what we call a mission bend, and we go from city to. city
giving missions ; some of our Fathers go to the foreign missions.
Mr. Bobo. And your full name ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 71
Father Egan. Father Daniel Egan.
Mr. BoBO. Now, Father Eaan, would you tell us some of the things
of which
Chairman Kefauver. Is this a special work that you are designated
to do, Father Egan ? Will you give us the background of your assign-
ment and what you have undertaken ?
Father Egan. I received requests from various cities to conduct
high school retreats in Catholic schools, and also to go to cities that
do not have Catholic high schools and conduct teen-age missions in
the evening for Catholic students who go to public schools, and many
Protestants and Jewish children, and teen-agers attend as well; they
are all mixed up.
So I, well I get the kids in the church for an hour and 10 minutes
every evening, and I talk to them about their problems. During the
course of the week's mission their problem does come up. In talking
to me on the streets, or on the corners, the problem of the pornographic
literature is increasing.
Mr. BoBO. Father Egan, would you tell us where you have been, in
what cities you have been, and how manv years you have been doing
this?
Father Egan. I have been in teen-age missions in Louisville, Cin-
cimiati, Cleveland, Rochester, Boston, Washington, Brooklyn — well,
too numerous to mention in 10 years.
Since February I have been in Cleveland, Washington, Boston,
Jersey, up in Cornell University — well, cities like this.
Mr. BoBO. And in the cities do you hold youth meetings ?
Father Egan. Throw-aways ai-e given out in the public high schools
a week or two beforehand announcing a teen-age mission.
AU yom- problems are frankly discussed. God's point of view with regard to
your troubles.
Then the kids come sometimes ; in Springfield last year we had 1,200
kids every night; tlie following week 1,600 kids every night. And
these were by and large 75, 85 percent of them public high school kids.
Chairman Kefauver. I did not understand how many you said you
would have every night.
Father Egan. It would vary with the city. Senator. In Spring-
held we had 1,200 every night. In the following week in Holyoke
we had 1,600 every night.
Starting tonight up in Gardiner, Mass., there will be a series of
teen talks. I don't know how many to expect.
Mr. BoBO. After you have had these talks with them, and you have
talked to them, do they then come to you for counseling ?
Father Egan. Yes. So naturally from here on in, if you ask me
any questions, since I am a professional man, I will say that I have
encountered this literature in a Midwest city, in a Northern city, or in
a Southern city, uidess you demand that I specify the city. Would
it do any good if I mentioned the mime of the city ?
Chairman Kefauver. Sure. Tell where you found it.
Mr. BoBo. I think if you would tell us the city where you found it,
it would show the interstate traffic in this matei'ial. Father.
Father Egan. Since February I have seen this pornographic liter-
ature in Cleveland, Washington, and in New York City. I have
seen it, looked at it. The kids brought it to me.
72 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. You speak of pornographic literature. Of what type
are you speaking now, Father ?
Father Egan. I do not mean the magazines that are very lurid and
filthy and sexy that can be bought on newsstands. I rather mean the
type of literature that might be printed as this [indicating], and then
circulated through high schools, sold to a kid on the corner, or just
sold to them any place.
Mr. BoBO. You mentioned that you have seen this in this city. Have
you seen it in the hands of teen-agers or j^ounger ?
Father Egan. Yes. In one city I was conducting, I usually con-
duct a parent night to arouse a public indignation against this con-
dition, to get the parents aware of it. Most of them are not aware
of it. So, in this particular city, I asked 2 of the boys, 15 years of
age, would they go out and buv me some real filthy literature. They
said, "What kind do you want?"
I said, "Real filthy."
They said, "How much money do you want to spend ?"
I had a $5 bill with me. I gave it to them. Inside of an hour
they brought back some of the material I sent back to your office.
Mr. BoBO. In the city of Washington, was that where this particular
thing happened ?
Father Egan. No; this was in Cleveland.
I mean now by pornographic literature, the specific kind that
shows in a degrading way, and in unnatural ways the act of sex
relations.
Mr. BoBO. Father, in traveling around the country you have be-
come acquainted with college campuses. Have you known on these
campuses of the showing of pornographic stag party films ?
Father Egan. At fraternity houses, I know that they are shown to
just stag parties.
INIr. BoBO. Would you say this was very widespread among the
high schools and colleges? 1 am speaking now of the films.
Father Egan. I am not in a position to say; I do not work too
frequently on the college level.
Mr. BoBO. Among high-school children, has it ever come to your
attention that they have viewed these?
Father Egan. I have heard it on many occasions when a teen-
ager will go baby sitting, that while there they will be shown or they
will see some of this pornographic film material that you speak
about.
Mr. BoBO. Could you give us. Father Egan, in your opinion, what
the effect of this pornographic material is upon a young mind?
Father Egan. We speak a great deal at the present moment about
the blackboard jungles. Emotional problems in high school. And
yet there are some people that would like to tell us that there is
nothing wrong with stealing. The God-given pleasures of sex, out-
side of marriage. Still, when a kid does do it, he does experience —
and this is something God is responsible for — they do experience a
guilt complex. This guilt complex, I am certain, is reflected in the
emotional problems they reveal in the classroom. These pornographic
materials are bound to produce in the lives of the teen-agers acts
of masturbation, acts of self-abuse, acts of unnatural things between
fellows and girls, and this is shown up, then, in the sense of guilt,
and that reveals itself in emotional problems in the classrooros.
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY 73
The teachers in the public high schools, God bless them, they are
doing a wonderful job with the problems that they have, but they are
treating a symptom over here, and the real cause is over here.
You were speaking a short while ago about the penalties for this
Mr. BoBO. May 1 ask you this : When you are speaking of a symp-
tom over here and a cause over there, to what are you referring?
Father Egan. They are treating the emotional symptoms of filthy
language on the walls and on the toilets, and they are treating the
emotional problems of disbehavior, or fighting and gang instincts ni
the schools, but this may be a mere symptom of somethnig deeper
away over here, that when a boy or a girl is possessed with a sense of
guilt, that they are committing acts of impurity alone or with others,
Tt is revealed then in these other things, and they are creating this
thing, but the real cause is over here.
This deluge of filth is sweeping over the country and is having its
effect in other things. I am convinced of this.
No normal teen-ager today could look at this unless he has ice
water in his veins. If he has real blood he couldn't possibly look
at this without showing some effect in other ways.
Mr. BoBO. You think of the normal teen-ager only the emotional
disturbed teen-ager; do you think it would be possible by looking at
some of the material which has come into your hands that he might
thereby be stirred up to go out and commit a sex crime against a
fellow playmate, boy or girl?
Father Egan. I am certain of it. A boy looks at this, shows it to
his girl friend. They go to a show together, a movie, and things are
bound to happen. i i -i
Mr. BoBO. Do you think that among the sexually uneduqated chil-
dren who are inquisitive, as most of them are about sex, that this
might tend to make him think this is normal sex, pictures of which
we have here, if he had no other outside instruction from either the
home, school, or church ? -j. i • n
Father Egan. I agree with you very much, that it he is sexually
uneducated, if he has not been taught to see the sanctity and the dig-
nity and the holiness of sex from God's point of view, if they see this
early in life, they do think it is a normal thing.
Chairman Kefauver. Father Egan, you have now been 10 years m
all these cities doing this wonderful work, giving youth guidances.
This filth that is flooding the country now, all over the country, is it
on the increase among children ? t . i i o
Father Egan. The mere fact that I have encountered m the last 6
months what I have not encountered before would prove to me that
it is definitely on the increase in many various forms.
A little kid showed me recently a magazine you can buy at the
corner now. and inserted in the top of it are these colored glasses that
you can look at a picture and you see a picture now in triple dimen-
sions. Like when you go to the movies— I haven't been to a movie
in a couple of years — but you go to some movies, I understand, you
look through some glasses, I understand, and you see the thing m
triple dimensions. Now tliey sell them at the corner, so that you
look at the art magazines, and with these glasses you can see them
in triple dimensions.
Kids, I know, numerous cases of some of the modern magazines tliat
you cm^'t clfiss legally as pornographic material, and yet while the
74 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
man is mixing a coke, they can rip out these nude pictures in maga-
zines like, here I will mention — well, under some of the magazines
they can rip it out and circulate it through a school, and that one pic-
ture can be responsible for more emotional problems that way than
anything else.
Mr. BoBO. You are speaking now of magazines that are sold upon
the newsstand, and the effect that they might have but not of — previous
to this you were speaking of pornography?
Father Egax, I was speaking of pornography ; yes.
Mr. Kefauver, I don't think that the average person is aware of
this 1 fact, that whereas if a man were to sell 1 teen-ager 1
marihuana, that marihuana will affect this 1 teen-ager. We can see
the effects of that in his life. But 1 piece of this pornogi-aphic ma-
terial allowed to circulate through 1 classroom or 1 school can do
harm that we can't estimate. And I speak under correction, but I
understand tliere is some suggestion of making it life imprisonment
for anyone who is importing heroin or marijuana as in vast num-
bers. \Yhy couldn't you make it even more severe, 7 years, for a man
who is importing and producing this, he is corrupting, he is rotting
at the very roots of our Nation. Communism will never defeat Amer-
ica; it is something within the Nation that is going to rot and corrupt
it; and there should be a more stringent law than just 2 or 3 years,
or 7 years.
Chairman Kkfauver. You think that this pornographic literature
is having a substantial effect upon that degrading process?
Father Eg an. Positively, Senator.
Chairman KErAiTVER. 1 was amazed. Father Egan, one day you
came to my office, and I will always remember. You said you had just
been around on the streets of Washington and you picked up a whole
bundle of tliis, not art magazines but pure filth, in the Nation's
Capital, and you brought it in and gave it to me.
Father Egax. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. That is the kind of thing we are finding in
increasing amounts all over the country.
Father Egan. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer ?
Senator Langer. No questions. Tliank you.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, anything else?
Mr. BoBO. Father Egan, does this make generally the entire social
ground, I mean from the low social, economic group up to the very
highest ? Wliere would you say it was most ]Drevalent ?
Fatlier Egan. I don't work very often with the higher social strata.
Mr. BoBO. So your working is within the great middle group where
this stuff is striking ?
Father Egan. I talked to numerous girls who have posed for these
pictures.
Chairman Kefauver. Teenagers, kids ?
Father Egan. Kids who would be playing to and from school. They
miglit be down at the corner having a coke, or they might be at a show,
and someone will glide up to them and convince them that they are
photogenic, or they would look pretty in a picture, and give tliem $5
or $10, and from that one negative they will produce many others.
Chairman Kefauvter, What did you start to say, sir ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 75
Father Egan. I will finish this, Senator, by sayino- that it is my con-
vinced opinion that if we are ooin<r to do anythin<r about this, it is
soniethino; far deeper, and even though we increase tlie number of
])layorounds, even though we increase the number of policemen, even
though we increase everythin<r else, this will never remove the danger
of this, unless we find the cause of it alL
Today, if you were to release in the classroom some cold germs, teen-
agers who are physically Aveak will be more susceptible to the germs;
strong, healthy kids will not be contaminated by the cold germs.
Today teenagers are becoming susceptible to' all this tilth, not be-
cause there is really more of it, I don't think— maybe it is on the in-
crease, I am not jjrepared to say that definitely— but the kids today
are so spiritually sick, they don't know the law^s of God, they don't
know why they should be good, they don't know the sanctity of sex,
and because of this they are suscej)tible to all these germs.
If we are going to do anything about it, it won't be just sufficient to
clear this up. I have seen this when I— I went to public high school in
New^ York, and this stuff has no effect on some kids. Because they
knew about God, they knew about the Ten Connnandments, which are
common to every kid, and unless they know this, unless they know the
Commandments, unless they know why they should be goodj then tliere
is no sense just clearing up the newsstands or increasing the police
force.
Chairman IvErAuvER. Father Egan, in your testimony you have
mentioned some specific cities where you^ found this material. I
wwldn't want your testimony, or your' reference to those particular
cities to make it ap]:>ear that they are different or any worse than
many, many others. The fact is, some of them may be better.
I mentioned the fact that you have found some material in the
Nation's Capital. I think you may also be aware of the tremendous
effort that is being made by the Washington police force, and many
groups in Washington, and they have been quite effective in the recent
months and in the recent years in cleaning up tliis pornography and
filth for wdiicli we commend them.
So that I don't w^ant, I know you don't want your testimony to be
singling out one place as a bad example.
Father Egan. Certainly not, Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. And I don't want to do that either. I do want
to commend some of these places where you have mentioned. Here in
New York there have been some good efforts made. There have been
some fine efforts made in Washington. They are still on the alert. I
hope that we can all do better with the problem, how^ever.
All right, Father Egan, thank you very much. Our best wishes in
your continued work with the young people of our Nation.
Father Egan. Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. We w^ill have a 5-minute recess.
(Short recess taken.)
Chairman Kefauver. The subcommittee will come to order. Every-
body have a seat, please.
The subcommittee is glad to have James A. Fitzpatrick, a member
of the assembly. He has made an investigation of this problem, and
has sponsored some legislation in coimection with it.
65203—55 6
76 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
For the benefit of any witnesses who were not here when we started,
anyone who is called and feels that the lights and movie cameras and
television discommodes them, or they would be embarrassed, will not
be required to testify before TV or the cameras, if they will let the
staff of the subcomittee know. We appreciate the cooperation of the
television and movie people in this connection.
Mr. Bobo, who is our next witness ?
Mr. BoBO. We have subpenaed a number of witnesses to appear be-
fore this subcommittee either today, tomorrow or the following day ;
and we have asked for the books and records of these individuals to be
produced today. • t • i ■,
I will ask Mr. Martin now to call the names of these individuals.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, it is apparent we are not going to
get all these witnesses today; and if you could tell the witnesses when
to come back, we might save them some time.
All right, Mr. Martin.
Mr. Martin. Abraham Rubenstein.
Chairman IvEFAmTiR. Is Mr. Eubenstein here? The fact any wit-
ness' name has been called doesn't mean he is in the pornographic
business. We have some witnesses who will testify as experts.
We have had some charts made. As Mr. Chumbris said, we are
happy to state this has been exposed. Prosecutions have been
brought, and the operation shown on that chart no longer exists by
virtue of the police department and public officials of Baltimore.
Mr. Deerson is our next witness. Mr. Deerson, will you come
around ? Mr. Deerson, no one questions your veracity, but it is pos-
sible that you might mention someone's name, so if you have no ob-
jection I would like to swear you.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM DEERSON, DEAN OF DISCIPLINE, HAAREN
HIGH SCHOOL, NEW YORK, N. Y.
(William Deerson was duly sworn.)
Chairman IvEFAmTCR. Mr. Bobo, let us qualify Mr. Deerson— who
he is.
Mr. Bobo. Will you state your full name and address for the record?
Mr. Deerson. INIy name is William Deerson. I am the dean of a
New York city high school.
Mr. Bobo. What high school is that?
Mr. Deerson. Haaren High School, New York City.
Mr. BoBO. And the address of that ?
Mr. Deerson. Eight hundred and ninety-nine 10th Avenue. I am
also employed as the director of recreational activities at the Jewish
Settlement House, at 128 Stanton Street, New York City.
Mr. BoBO. For how many years have you been dean of discipline
at the Haaren High School ?
Mr. Deerson. One year. . .
Mr. Bobo. Previous to that time what was your position i
Mr. Deerson. Teacher of health education in that particular school.
Mr. Bobo. For how long were you teacher of health education m
that school ?
Mr. Deerson. For 12 years.
Mr. Bobo. And your local address is what?
Mr. Deerson. 2555 Bainbridge Avenue, Bronx, N. Y.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 77
Mr. BoBO. For how lono- have you been a school teacher?
Mr, Deerson. Since 1934.
Mr. Bono. Has all that time been in the city of New York ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. You are also employed by the Jewish Set-
tlement House on the East Side, located at 128 Stanton Street ; is that
correct ?
Mr. Deerson. That is correct.
Chairman Kefau^'er. You are employed there in what capacity?
Mr. Deerson. Director of recreational activities and physical activ-
ities.
Chairman Kefau^t:r. How long have you been so employed ?
Mr. Deerson. 12 years.
Chairman Kefauver. In your two positions do you come in contact
with a very large number of school children ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes, I do.
Chairman Kefauver. And you have a chance to observe them, and
talk with them, and see what influences them for the good or the bad ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefaui'er. See what they are reading, and what is
influencing their minds ?
Mr. Deerson. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well, proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. How many students are at Haaren High School?
Mr. Deerson. About 2,000 boys.
Mr. BoBO. As dean of discipline is it your position to deal with
wayward acts and delinquent acts of children in the school?
Mr. Deerson. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. Misbehavior problems within the school ?
Mr. Deerson. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. Has it come to your attention, Mr. Deerson, that any of
the students of the high school, Haaren High School, have come in
contact with or had in their possession any pornographic materials
of any types?
Mr. Deerson. Yes, they have.
Mr. BoBO. Would you say to what extent?
Mr. Deerson. Well, recently I noticed that quite a few boys have
been passing theses booklets around among the other boys. Some have
been selling them. It seems that some boys purchase a booklet, and
after they have seen it and passed it around they may sell it to another
boy at a profit.
Mr. BoBO. Would you describe what these booklets are that you
are speaking of ?
Mr. Deerson. The booklets are the severe filthy type of porno-
grapliic material, unnatural perverted types of sex acts.
Chairman Kefauver. You are not talking about art magazines?
Mr. Deerson. No, I am not.
Mr. BoBo. You are speaking of what is connnonly referred to as the
2-by-4 book and 4-by-5-type book that is sold — photographic pictures
along with a printed story?
Mr. Deerson. That type and othei-s.
Mr. BoBO. In the questioning of some of the boys who have had
it in their possession, and those who have sold it, Avhat is tlie price
these books usually sell for in the school?
78 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Deerson. Usually the postal-card type is sold for about 25
cents. The Maggie and Jiggs type may be sold anywhere from 25
cents to half a dollar. The card-playing type, where a deck of cards
is purchased, let us say, for $5 on the outside, they are resold for any-
where from 15 to 25 cents per card.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have the figures as to the number of boys that
have been known to sell pornographic literature within the high
school ?
Mr. Deerson. I have discovered three boys this term.
Mr. BoBo. Three boys selling ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any figures as to the number who have
had it in their possession ?
Mr. Deerson. No ; I have not.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any knowledge as to the extent that tins
traffic might reach where one boy would buy it, and to how many it
would be passed around ?
Mr. Deerson. I have only discovered about five boys selling the
material this term. There niay be others. I don't know.
Mr. BoBO. Have you found out from the three boys who have been
selling it where thev might have obtained the material themselves to
sell it? "^ ...
JNIr. Deerson. Yes ; thev have told me they purchase it from men
around New York City. They purchase it on the Bowery. Some have
said tliey have purchased it oii 42d Street, Sixth Avenue, the lower East
Side, and especially among the men who sell old hats, razor blades.
They sell old watches.
Mr. Bono. A typical street peddler?
]\Ir. Deerson. Street peddlers : and among their items will be porno-
graphic material.
Mr. BoBO. Have you found, Mr. Deerson, that this is usually a sur-
reptitious operation, not open and aboveboard among the boys, or
among the street peddlers; that it is carried under the counter or
under other goods which they have ?
Mr. Deerson. The material is in the man's pockets: and m passing
by a man will ap])roach a voung teen-ager and ask him to purchase it.
Mr. Bono. As dean of discipline in this particular high school, have
you found that there is a certain inquisitiveness among the students
there to read this particular type of literature?
Mr. Deerson. Definitely.
Mr. Bono. Would you think that this particular type of literature
would cause any increase in sexual activities among the students at
Haaren High School?
Mr. Deerson. I believe so.
Mr. BoBO. Is this a coeducational school?
Mr. Deerson. No ; it is all boys.
Mr. BoBO. Would vou think this particular material and the read-
ing of this material would in any way affect the juvenile-delinquency
rate of the students in this particular high school ? . ■, c
Mr. Deerson. T believe there is some relationship. There is defi-
nitely a connection between the juvenile-delinquency rate and the read-
ing of this material.
I feel that the material when read excites the young man ; it stimu-
lates him and mav lead to some overt act.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 79
Mr. J^oBo. From your contacts with tlie other teaching staffs of the
public schools in New York, and also in the parochial schools, and in
other cities outside of the city of New York, has it come to your atten-
tion that they sutfer from a similar problem which you face in your
school ?
Mr. Deerson. I believe so.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever discussed it with any of them?
Mr. Deerson. No; I have never discussed it with anybody from
anywliere else.
Mr. BoBO. I believe I asked you the question. Was this a coeduca-
tional hifjh school ?
Mr. Deerson. No ; it is a boys' school.
Mr. BoBO. Altogether a boys' school?
Mr. Deerson. All boys.
Mr. Martin. I notice you have an envelope there. Would that be
some of the material that has been confiscated ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes. I have a variety of tlie various pornographic
material in this envelope.
Mr. Martin. Would you object to turning it over to the committee?
Mr. Deerson. I don't object at all.
Chairman Kefauver. That is typical of what you have been finding
.among these boys ?
Mr. Deerson. That is correct.
Chairman Kefaiver. Give it to Mr. Butler.
Mr. Deerson. I will be glad to.
Chairman Kefai ver. How old are these boys?
Mr. Deerson. From 14 to 18.
Chairman KeFxVuver? Do you find the same sort of thing at the
Jewish Settlement ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes. Only there it might be younger than 14.
Chairman Kefauver. Plow old are they?
Mr. Deerson. They range anywhere from 11 to 20.
Chairman Kefauver. And you find that some of these people sell
them pornographic literature, and they in turn distribute it and sell
it to other kids ?
Mr. Deerson. In the settlement house it is not sold.
Chairman Kefauver. But among the boys that you see at the settle-
ment house ?
Mr. Deerson. Yes ; some of them do sell some of the pictures, espe-
cially the playing-card type.
Chairman Kefaua'er. Go ahead, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. Bobo. Do you have any knowledge as to what the extent of
this traffic might be among the teen-agers in New York City?
Mr. Deerson. I have noticed an inci-ease in the amount of booklets
being passed around. By booklets, I mean pornographic story type
with pictures. I understand from one boy that there is a series of 10
of a similar size, approximately 4 by 6. In the exhibit that I just
brought in I have two samples of that type.
Of course, as Father Egan said, it is not the number of booklets;
it is the passage of one fi-om one boy to another that causes a greater
damage.
Mr. Bobo. Is that a new problem at the school ? Have you noticed
a stead}^ increase, or is it a recent problem ?
^^0 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Deerson. I have noticed a steady increase, especially the pass-
ing from one stage to another.
Tlie art books sold on the newsstands, I believe, tend to stimulate
these boys to seek a stronger type of material.
Chairman KErAu\T3R. Senator Langer, do you have any questions?
Senator Langer. No.
Chairman Kefaumcr. j\Ir. Deerson, do you feel that this influence
is one of the influences that is contributing to juvenile delinquency?
Mr. Deerson. I definitely believe so.
Chairman Kefauver. And it is on the increase ?
Mr. Deerson. I believe so.
Chairman KE^Au^^ER. What you have in your school, of course, is
just a typical situation not only of other high schools but high schools
all throughout the Nation? Your high school is just about like any
other boys' school ?
JSIr. Deerson. That is right. I believe it is a typical school.
Chairman KEFAU^^2R. I wanted it clear that we asked you to come
here, not in an effort to criticize your school, but to show that hap-
pens in a typical school like you have.
Mr. Deerson. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, sir.
Dr. Benjamin Karpman.
STATEMENT OF DR. BENJAMIN KARPMAN, CHIEF PSYCHOTHERA-
PIST, ST. ELIZABETHS HOSPITAL, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Dr. Karpman, are you going to talk about names of people, and
whatnot, in your testimony ?
Dr. Karpman. Professional people don't mention names.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. If these lights bother you, you
can say so.
Dr. Karpman. It is all right.
Chairman Kefaita-er. Dr. Karpman, it is good to have you with us.
You are Dr. Benjamin Karpman, cliief psychotherapist of St. Eliza-
beths Hospital in Washington, D. C. ?
Dr. Karpman. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. The St. Elizabeths Hospital is one of the
largest and best known and best operated of our mental institutions
for the treatment of mental disturbances ; is that correct ?
Dr. Karpman. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You have been connected with St. Elizabeths
Hospital for how long?
Dr. Karpman. 35 years.
Chairman Kefauver. Since 1919 ?
Dr. Karpman. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your educational qualifications and
background, Dr. Karpman ?
Dr. Karpman. I have a degree in chemistry and pharmacv from
Columbia ; a bachelors degree from the University of North Dakota ; a
bachelor of medicine degree from the University of Minnesota; and
I also have a diploma from the University of Vienna, postgraduate
work.
Chairman Kefauver. The study of criminology is your life's work?
Dr. Karpman. That is right.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 81
Chairman Kefauvicr. I think I can say that Dr. Karpnian is one of
the most eminently and highly respected and knowledgeable crimi-
nologists in the world.
Dr. Karpman, we feel you are unusually well qualified to tell us in
some detail of the matters that we are discussing here today as it
relates to juvenile delinquency.
Mr. Bobo, will you carry on.
Mr. Bobo. Dr. Karpman, would you describe for us in professional
terms the meaning of pornographic literature — what you interpret
pornographic literature to be ?
Dr. Karpman. Every community employs certain restrictions on its
citizens, and one of the restrictions is verbal communication of certain
private matters which can be discussed very privately among some
people, but cannot be discussed in public. Among this is included cer-
tain material dealing with the private sex lives of individuals.
The intimate relations that are established between people in private
relations — however, there are some people who seem to take satisfac-
tion in spreading this type of material abroad ; and these are the people
who indulge in pornographic material.
There are tw^o aspects to this pornographic material. There is the
doer, the one that secures pornographic material for distribution ; and
then there is the victim who is exposed to that by the material of the
other doer.
For this reason in order to develop pornographic literature you
have got to have people who make a speciality of this poino'jrai^hic
literature. They go to the trouble of engaging people to pose for them
in various unmentionable poses, and then after they get the material
they get victims who pay certain amounts of money for the purpose
of being able to see this material.
This material deals with sexual matters, with sexual relations,
but not with the normal so-called average type of sexual relations.
There is no interest in that, but usually with the type of sex mate-
rial that ordinarily is prohibited or at least is unmentionable.
For instance, homosexuality and perversions. In homosexuals we
often get pictures of people engaged in homosexual relations of a
great variety. Tliere are dilferences in homosexual relations in men,
and there are difl'erences in homosexual relations in women. This
is pure homosexuality ; but between homosexuality on the one hand,
and so-called heterosexuality, on the other hand, there are a large
group of people and activities which are called perversions.
Perversions may occur between couples, men and women, but in
entirely abnormal and pathological ways — for instance, different
positions, different matters of acting.
This is what is the purpose of pornographic men, and people pay
money for that.
There would be no problem in pornographic literature if this was
exposed to people who are normally developed and have been able
to develop normal inhibitions, repressions and control.
Unfortunately it is often given to people of adolescent ages, which
from our point of view is a very unstable period of life. Anything
may happen during adolescence. You can take a perfectly healthy
boy or girl and by exposing them to abnormalities you can virtually
crystallize and settle their lives for the rest of their lives.
82 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
If they are not exposed to that they may develop to perfectly
healthy, normal citizens. It is here that objection comes upon porno-
graphic literature.
Mr. BoBO. You mean a perfectly normal, healthy boy or girl, 12
or 13 years of age, if exposed to pornogTaphic literature, could
thereby develop into a homosexual ?
Dr. Karpman. That is right; because from our point of view — we
are not all normally, what we call heterosexual. We don't belong
to one sex. All of us are bisexual. Every man has some element
of a woman in him, because he has inherited that from his mother.
In other words, every man has, from our i)oint of view, a feminine
component. Every women has, from our point of view, a masculine
component, which she has inherited from her father.
The proportion of this varies, but usually the masculine compo-
nent in a man is large, let us say, 85 percent, whereas the feminine
component in a man is very small, let us say, 10 to 15 percent; but
because adolescence is a very unstable stage of development, if. you
expose a boy to an abnormal behavior it will play upon the unde-
veloped feminine component, and he might become liomosexual,
Mr. Bono. Do you think the reading of pornographic literature
in addition to maybe changing his sex habits in life might also have
an etl'ect upon him more of a tendency to become a juvenile delin-
quent ?
Dr. Karpman. I believe there is a definite relationship between
juvenile delinquency and sex life. We started from this point of
view. Our life from our point of view is guided by our instincts.
We have two main instincts — the self-preservati^^e instinct, and the
race-preservative instinct, commonly known as the hunger and sex
instincts.
Instincts that spread by tension — you and I will never know that we
are hungry unless there would develop in the stomach some sort of
tension which sends a message to the brain and tells us that we are
hungry. In other words, we know of our sex life and of our personal
life, of hunger life, only through the medium of tension developing.
Tension is tension. When a young boy and girl, for instance — you
take a .young boy who is reaching adolescence, and he is hungry for in-
formation on sex, but for some reason or another doesn't get it at home
because the mother and father are too tired to talk to them about four-
letter words and other nasty things.
Where is the boy going to find it ? He cannot find it at home. He
doesn't always find it in school. Very few schools have developed
to the point of giving lectures on the subjects of the facts of life. He
looks for it in the gutter, aud there he comes across pornographic ma-
terial and literature, and that draws him into all sorts of gang life,
which later discharges itself as juvenile delinquency.
In other words, here is a boy who is under a great deal of sexual
tension. The home environment will not permit him to discharge
the sexual tension in normal sex relations. Society doesn't permit
that in a premarital way. Tension is tension. It must break through.
If he cannot discharge it in a sexual way, he discharges it in a crim-
inal antisocial way.
Mr. Boiio. Thereby causing him to engage in gang activities?
Dr. Karpman". That is right. There is a very direct relationship
between juvenile delinquency, sex life, and pornographic literature.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 83
Mr. BoBO. Would it be your opinion that a youn^- hoy in reading
porno<2:raphic literature would he inclined to connnit some of the
various sex crimes of rape, or many other variations ?
Dr. Karpman. Some; not all. It all depends on the orijLiinal make-
up of the boy. There are some boys who have developed from early
childhood interest in dirty matters. For instance. I have known
boys only 5 or G years old, who every time they would go to the bath-
room to move their bowels would always look at the stool. They
vrould even take the stool and press it and squeeze it, showing a cer-
tain curiosity about it.
This type of boy who from early childhood has shown interest in
those matters is the type of boy when confronted with pornographic
literature will just fall for it hard.
There are, however, other boys who are brought up in a very severe
puritanical environment, and that boy may shy away from porno-
gra])liic literature. There is no set rule about it.
Mr. BoBo. Have you noticed coming to your attention more children
that have had contact with pornographic literature?
Dr. Karpman. I wouldn't say that I have come in contact with more.
I am not able to give you any statistics. I know that I have been
testifying very often for the Post Office Department. They come in
contact with a larger amount of pornographic literature. This has
been a problem of the Post Office Department all the time.
For instance, there are a group of people that w^e call perverts, who
specialize in s])anking. They derive satisfaction, sexual satisfaction,
out of spanking others and being spanked.
You sometimes get pictures of people, naked, nude, one after the
other, each one in front s])anking the other one. They even pub-
lished a journal called Bareback, and that is how the Post Office De-
partment got it, because they were sending obscene literature through
the mail. They arrested them. That doesn't make any difference.
You can arrest today all the people of this type that you can. To-
morrow morning you have another group, because the conditions
which produce them remain constant.
Mr. BoBO. In these spanking photos — and I presume that you would
include the chain photos — the ones where the women wear the long
black highheel boots ?
Dr. Karpman. That is right.
Mr. BoBO. Do you think it is possible this particular type of litera-
ture, even though it doesn't show a complete nude body, might also
have an effect upon juveniles and their sex life?
Dr. Karpman. Yes ; indeed. What they do not see, the imagination
supplies the rest. In other words, you only have to expose, we will
say, one bare leg of a woman, and her thigh, and then the imagination
will supply the rest.
Mr.'BoBO. So that the fact that under your definition, these bondage
and spanking and whipping photos are pornographic in nature?
Dr. Karpman. Absolutely ; they are pornographic in the sense that
they stimulate the mind to abnormal sexual practices.
What you speak of is what we psychiatrists know as sadism,
masochism, fetishism, and so on. These are abnormal sexual prac-
tices— men who are sadists and masochists usually get together. One
is a sadist and one is a masochist. The couple need not be only men
or only women. Sometimes it is a man and a woman.
84 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Oddly enough, it is the woman who is the sadist, and it is a big
strong husky man that is the masochist. The woman gets a hold of
a whip, and it is amazing how they can use a whip on a big strong
husky man, and he takes all she can give him, and out of that both
derive a certain amount of what we call physical satisfaction.
These things are sometimes enlarged in people, in children brought
up at the age of 3, 4, 5 years old. If pornographic literature would
not come along it would remain within certain confines — not normal,
because only psychoanalysis can cure that.
The pornogTaphic literature casts it broadly and widely, and at-
tracts people who would otherwise remain entirely innocent.
Mr. Bono. Pornographic literature, as I understand you, doesn't
affect only teen-agers, but can go down to the age of 5 or 6?
Dr. Karpman. Yes, absolutely ; if it falls on proper soil. You take,
for instance, a person who has developed normally. If you take that
kind of a person and expose them to literature when they were 5 years
old, he wouldn't know what it means. He may have been brought up
in a very good home w^hich was probably severely puritanical, but he
went to' church and controlled himself, and so on. That boy is not
likelv to be influenced by the exposure ; but you take a boy who has
developed from early childhood, from our point of view, developed
from early childhood sadistic, masochistic, fetishistic, or cannibalistic
tendencies, and there you have something from which he can go.
Chairman Kefauver. Would you say that among the juvenile popu-
lation of today that sexual perversion is on the increase'^
Dr. KARr^tAN. I would have to cite statistics, and it is impossible
under these circumstances to cite statistics. You cannot, because they
will deny it. I believe it is on the increase, and I will give you one
proof ; the world war.
As a result of war certain changes have taken place in our sex life.
Women were committing adultery because they were left without men.
That is one change. That disturbs the basic living of our com-
munities.
Some women have taken other women as partners to take the place
of the husband, because they did not want to commit adultery, and so
they thought they were remaining within the levels of normality; but
two women would get together and play with each other, and some,
even harmless.
Men coming from war over and over again would become changed in
their sex lives. That was demonstrated very well by the popular
song during World War I— My Buddy. It is a typical homosexual
song which glorified the companionship of men with men.
Then during the war there were also magazine articles — Men With-
out Women — which also emphasizes the problem of homosexuality.
There have been many divorces as a result of tlie war. There have
been many murders. A man stayed away during the war for 2 or 3
years, came back, and regardless of how faithful the wife might have
been to him, there was always a suspicion of jeolousy in them, and
many of them committed murder. I had a number of them among
my patients.
Mr. BoBO. In addition to creating certain perversions among chil-
dren, when an older person shows to a child pornographic literature,
what is the effect of that? Is he attempting to get him to engage in
perversion acts ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 85
Dr. Karpmajst. Men sonieliow or another do not realize they cannot
be as competent sexually at 65 as they were at 25, and they still expect
at 65 to be perfectly healthy and normal and be able to satisfy a woman.
A time comes when they are not able to satisfy a woman. A time
comes when they are able to satisfy only in a moderate degree, but
not the way they were able to satisfy them before.
Very often it happen that men, as time goes on, become less and less
and less competent sexually, but they don't want to admit it. Then
they suffer what we call regression. They begin to go down to the level
of childhood, and the man becomes almost like a child, and being a
child he thinks like a child. He feels like a child, and therefore tries
to play with children.
Mr. BoBO. Do you think also that among the young people, espe-
cially of high-school age, that rather than involve the danger of pos-
sible conception, that pornography has given them the idea in other
forms of sexual satisfaction?
Dr. Kakpman. Pornography may not have given them the idea,
but it may have supported it. One homosexual woman that I had
under observation told a young girl who was pei-fectly normal — but it
^as during the war, and men were scarce — and she came to her and
said, "^'V^lat do you want to bother with men for anyway ? There is
always the possibility of disease; there is always the possibility of
pregnancy. There would be no chance of pregnancy if you went out
with me. "Wliat is tliere a man can do that I cannot do ?"
She dresses herself up in male clothes, and looks like a man and acts
like a man, and she tries to simulate the activities of men; and that is
how women homosexuals often develop.
Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer, do you have any questions?
Senator Langer. How long have you been at the hospital in Wash-
ington ?
Dr. Karpman". 35 years, with the exception of a year and a half
when I was in Europe studying and doing postgraduate work.
Senator Danger. Thank you.
Chairman Kefauver. You were born in North Dakota?
Dr. Karpman. No.
Chairman Kefauver. You lived in North Dakota?
Dr. Karpman. Yes. I was at Columbia; I was at Michigan, and
I was always looking for a smaller school, and I found it in North
Dakota. Everybody knows everybody else. You are just like friends.
You have no such thing like that in a large city like this, where every-
body is everybody else's enemy. In North Dakota everybody is every-
body's friend, just like in Tennessee.
Chairman Kefauver. Dr. Karpman, we do certainly thank you for
the valuable information you have given to this committee.
Dr. Karpman. Thank you very much.
Chairman Kefauv'er. We appreciate your coming up to New York.
Mr. BoBO. I am going to ask Mr. Martin to call the names of the
witnesses who have been subpenaed to appear here today and to pre-
sent their books and records — and will you come forward at the time
in which he calls your name ?
Mr. Martin. Abraham Rubenstein. Abraham Ruben.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your name?
Mr. Weiss. Daniel S. Weiss, 15 East 40th Street.
Chairman Kefauver. You represent Mr. Ruben ?
86 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Weiss. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Let iis make it the first thing in the after-
noon. Let us saj 1 : 30.
Mr. Weiss. Very good.
Mr. Martin. Has Mr. Ruben brought his books ^Yith him ?
Mr. Weiss. Wliat books are you interested in?
Mr. Martin. He has been asked to produce his State and Federal
income-tax retm-ns for tlie years 1950 to 1954.
Mr. Weiss. We have that.
Mr. Martin. The records of his business, bankbooks, bank state-
ments, checkbooks, check stubs.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Weiss, we will take care of those things
and see that they are returned intact. Mark them and catalog them
carefully.
Mr. Weiss. That will be tomorrow at 1 : 30 ?
Chairman Kefauver. We will recess for hmch and come back at
1 : 30 or 2 o'clock. Let us say 1 : 30 to be sure.
Mr. Weiss. Thank you very much.
Mr. Martin. Mr. Herman Sobeh
Mr. BouRAR. I am the attorney for Mr. Sobel.
Chairman Kefauver. We will be glad to have you with us, Mr.
Bohrar. You are the attorney for Mr. Sobel?
Mr. BoHRAR. I am.
Chairman Kkfauaer. When did you want to have Mr. Sobel come
to testify? Would it be convenient to come back at 2: 30 tomorrow?
Mr. BoHRAR That will be perfectly all right. We have some rec-
ords here.
Mr. Martin. T wonder if Mr. Bohrar would care to define what
records you have produced ?
Mr. Bohrar. Canceled checks.
Mr. Martin. How about the State and Federal income-tax returns?
Mr. Bohrar He hasn't got any. He hasn't kept any records. He
has filed reports, but he hasn't kept copies of them.
Mr. Martin. Don't you know under the law he is required to keep
records of his business ?
Mr. Bohrar. T understand that, but he hasn't got them.
Chairman Kefauver. Is Mv. Sobel the head of a corporation?
Mr. Bohrar. He is an individual.
Chairman Kefauver. What kind of books did you keep, sir?
Mr. Bohrar. He doesn't keep any books.
Chairman Kefauver. Just keeps them in his head?
Mr. Bohrar. Keeps them in his head. He tells me there are a great
number of judgments against him, and he cannot keep records for
that reason. He doesn't keep any money in the bank because he hasn't
got any money.
Chairman Kefaua'er. He is in bad shape?
Mr. Bohrar. He ])uts a certain amount of money in the bank just to
make good the checks.
Mr. Martin. He was subpenaed to produce checkbooks, and check
stubs. "Wliere are they — the canceled checks?
Mr. Bohrar. That is all he has.
Chairman Kefauver. I suggest you look again and see if you cannot
find more lecord^ and books of your business.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 87
Mr. Butler, will you mark those? We will keep tliem and return
them to you, Mr. Bohrar.
Mr. Martin. Mr. Abe Eotto.
Mr. RoTTO. I was subpenaed for this morning. I am waiting for
my attorney.
Chairman Kefauver. How about 11 o'clock tomorrow morning?
Mr. Rcrro. That will be all right.
Chairman Kefauver. You have some books and records, Mr. Rotto?
Mr. Rotto. What 1 was asked to bi'ing along — the income-tax re-
ports. I haven't kept any books.
Mr. Martin. Do you have any books ?
Mr. Rotto. I haven't kept any books. I am just a free-lance sales-
man.
Mr. Martin. How about your bank accounts?
Mr. Rotto. I have one of those 10-cent checking accounts.
Mr. Martin. Do you have the canceled checks ?
Mr. RoTTO. Only for the last month or so. I get my statement,
check it off, and throw it away. I never have more than 50 or 60
dollars in the bank.
Mr. Martin. Do you own any property ?
Mr. RoTTo. No, sir,
Mr. Martin. No automobile; or anything?
Mr. RoTTO. I have an automobile ; yes, sir.
Mr. Bono. Do you have your income-tax returns for the years
requested ?
Mr. RoTi'o. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefai^ver. We will take care of what records you have.
Turn them over, and at the end of the hearing they will be returned
to you.
Mr. Rotto. Thank you.
Chairman Kefauver. Catalog carefully what he gives you.
Mr. Ro'iT'O. Eleven o'clock tomorrow morning?
Chairman Kefauver. Eleven o'clock in the morning.
Mr. Martin. Louis Shomer.
Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Shomer?
Mr. Shomer. Yes,
Chairman Kefauver. You are
Mr. Rachstein. Mr. Rachstein.
Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Shomer's attorney?
Mr. Rachstein, Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver, What is your first name, Mr, Rachstein ?
Mr. Rachstein. Jacob ; 280 Broadway, New York.
Chairman Kefauver. We will be glad to work out Mr. Shomer's
appearance at a time that is convenient with you.
Mr. Rachstein. I was going to trial tomorrow, but if we are going
to have a hearing tomorrow, any time will do. I will just adjourn
the case. Is it planned to liear Mr. Shomer tomorrow?
Chairman Kefauver. Will 1 : 30 be all right?
Mr, Rachstein, Yes; Your Honor,
Chairman Kefauver, We will look for you at 1 : 30,
Mr, Martin, Has Mr, Shomer produced the records?
Mr, Rachstein. He brought his checkbooks and stubs. He is un-
able to produce his tax returns because they are in the possession of
88 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
his accountant. He was served last night at 9 p. m. He has had no
opportunity before coining here this morning to see his accountant.
5lr. Martin. Can he get them?
Mr. Rachstein. He will have them here at 1 : 30.
Chairman Kefauver. If necessary, bring your accountant with
you. Turn over what you have now.
Mr. Eachstein. Thaiik you.
Mr. Martin. Roy Aid.
(No response.)
Mr. Martin. Irving Klaw.
Chairman Ke'fauver. You are Mr. Klaw?
Mr. Klaw. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Irving Klaw?
Mr. Klaw. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Gangel?
Mr. Gangel. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your address?
Mr. Gangel. 165 Broadway, New York City.
Chairman Kefauver. You are the attorney for Mr. Klaw?
Mr. Gangel. I am liis attorney, but his regular attorney is in the
hospital, and I have filed a written motion for an extension of the
return date of this subpena. Mr. Joseph E. Brill is Mr. Klaw's
attorney. He is confined to the Betii Israel Hospital, and so I have
asked that the return date be extended, and if necessary we would
appear before the committee in another city if the date were extended,
when Mr. Brill is available.
Chairman Kefauver. Have j'ou represented Mr. Klaw in other
matters ?
Mr. Gangp:l. Our firm has. Mr. Brill has been in charge of it.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Brill is a partner in your firm?
Mr. Gangel. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. How many members are there in the firm?
INIr. Gangel. Two members.
Chairman Kefauver. And the finn has handled Mr. Klaw's mat-
ters ?
Mr. Gangel. Yes; but exclusively by Mr. Brill.
Chairman KEFAU^TR. Mr. Gangel, I think we will get along all
right. AH we want to get are some facts. We won't get into any
involved legal complications, I wouldn't think. We would like to get
as much of this hearing over with during these 3 days as possible.
Mr. Gangel. I will cooperate as much as ])()ssible, but I am not
sure there w^on't be any legal problems, and that is the reason I
wanted the client to have the benefit of Mr. Brill's advice and counsel,
but I will, of course, abide by the chairman's ruling.
Chairman Kefauver. I think we Avill get along all right.
Mr. Gangel. Thank you.
Chairman Kefauver. When would it be convenient for Mr. Klaw
to come? Would 1 o'clock Thursday afternoon be convenient?
Mr. Gangel. I don't have my diary here, but we will be here what-
ever time the committee fixes.
Chairman Kefauver. One o'clock Thursday afternoon.
Mr. Klaw, were you requested to bring any records or books?
Mr. Klaw. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you have them, sir?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 89
Mr. Klaw. 1 decline to make tliein available under the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution ; that they may tend to degrade or incriminate
me; and under the fourth amenchnent of the Constitution, that the
subpena is vaoue and illegal.
Chairman Kefauvek. Well, sii', as to the second point, vagueness
and illegality of the subi)ena — the subpena should be copied in the
record at this point. Let it be exhibit 7.
(The subi^ena was marked "Exhibit 7," and is as follows:)
Exhibit No. 7
United States of America
congress of the united states
To Irving Klaw, 212 Eaat IJfth Street, New York Citij, Greet hig:
Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before the
Subcommittee To Investigate .Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the United
States, on May 24, 1955, at 10 o'clock a. m., at their committee room 104, United
States Court House, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., then and there to testify
what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by said
committee, and bring' with you copies of your State and Federal income-tax
returns for the years 19.j0 to 1954, inclusive ; records of your business, including
bankbooks, bank statements, checkbooks and check stubs, profit and loss state-
ments, statements of assets and liabilities, and all documents reflecting your
interest in property, real, personal, or mixed.
Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties
in such cases made and provided.
To United States Marshall, southern district of New York to serve and return.
Given under my hand, b.v order of the committee, this 19th day of May, in
tte year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five.
EsTES Kepatjver,
Chninnan, tiuhcommittee To Iiivestif/ate Juvenile Delinquency.
Chairman Kefattver. As to the second point, you, of course, are
entitled to rely upon the fifth amendment. Do you wish to make
any statement as to why you think producing any books or records
called for here, might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution; that an anwer to that may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Gangel. According to your suggestion, we don't want any
pictures.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw said he didn't want any lights or
pictures.
Mr. Gangel. There is just one aside from the question you have
just addressed to this witness. If you would fix our appearance
for Thursday morning instead of Thursday afternoon, I would very
much appreciate it, because I have to conduct a hearing at 2 o'clock
on Thursday, and I am afraid this would interfere. If it could be
arranged, I would appreciate it.
Chairman Kefauver. Nine o'clock Thursday morning.
Mr. Gangel. All right, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, you have refused to comply with
the subpena and bring in certain books. You have a copy of the
subpena, do you not?
Mr. Gangel. We have a copy of the subpena. Mr. Klaw had it
and turned it over to me.
Chairman Kefau\^r. It was duly served on Mr. Klaw.
Mr. Klaw, the subcommittee will order and direct you to bring
the books and records specified in this subpena when you come Thurs-
90 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
day morning. You will remain under continuing subpena to appear
here at 9 o'clock Thursday morning with the books and records de-
scribed in this subpena. Is that clear?
Mr. Gangel. We understand, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Martin. Aaron Moses Shapiro.
Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Shapiro not here ?
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shapiro hasn't made an appearance.
Chairman Kefauver. Let us ask the assistants of the marshal to
locate him.
Mr. BoBO. Is the marshal present ?
The Marshal. Mr. Sliapiro is not in the back room.
Mr. Martin. Martin Goodman.
Mr. Frolich. Mr. Goodman's coimsel was out of town. I believe
he got in touch with the committee.
^ Mr. Martin. Edward Mishikin.
Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Mishikin^
Mr. Mishikin. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. You appear for Mr. Mishikin?
Mr. Weiss. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. He will continue under subpena and come
back at 1 : 30 tomorrow.
Mr. Weiss. Fine.
Chairman Kefau%'er. Do you have some books and records?
Mr. Weiss. He has.
Chairman Kefauver. Have you?
Mr. Martin. Aren't there more records than what he has in his
hands ?
Mr. Weiss. Most of tliose records with respect to income tax are
now in the possession of the Internal Revenue Department. He is
under investigation there.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you take charge and catalog the records?
They will be returned to him.
Have him look again and see if he finds any other records.
Mr. Weiss. All the records he has in his possession have now been
turned over.
Mr. Martin. Do we have the documents reflecting his interest in
pro])erty, real, personal, and mixed?
Mv. Weiss. Yes.
Mr. Martin. Do we have a statement of his assets and liabilities?
Mr. Weiss. All of those records are with the Internal Revenue De
partment.
Mr. Martin. All of them ?
Mr. Weiss. Yes ; I imagine all of them.
Mr. Martin. For 1954, too?
Mr. Weiss. They are either in the possession of the Internal Rev
enue Department or his tax representatives who is presently negoti-
ating with the Internal Revenue Department.
Chairman Kefauver. Your client must have cojiies of these reports,
or must be al)le to get in toucli with his tax representative.
Mr. Weiss. I will try to do that myself if it is possible.
Mr. Martin. How about his profit and loss statement ?
Mr. Weiss. AJ] of those are in, I believe.
Mr. Martin. His bank statements?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 91
Mr. Weiss. The bank books have been turned over. There are no
checking accounts, and there liaven't been any.
Mr. Martin. Mr. Weiss, it isn't customary for the Internal Revenue
Department to be that much on the ball that they will be investigating
a man's 1954 income tax in 1955.
Mr. Weiss. It is more or less of a continuation of an original investi-
gation. I think there has been an extension on it to cover other
years. Frankly, I am not too familiar with that, but I know all the
records he has, he has turned over either to the Internal Revenue
Department or to the tax consultant who is handling the matter with
the Internal Revenue Department.
Mr. Martin. You will take it up with the tax consultant?
Mr. Weiss. I will definitely call him. Is it 1 : 30 or 2 o'clock to-
morrow ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes. If you will advise a member of the
staff in the morning as to what the tax consultant says — whether you
have gotten those records or not, that will be all right.
Mr. Weiss. Yes; of course.
Mr. Martin. Do you have any other clients, while you are here?
Mr. Weiss. I have one who is ill, and I have turned in a doctor's
certificate with respect to him. That is Louis Finkelstein.
Mr. Martin. Mr. Finkelstein?
Mr. Weiss. That is correct.
Mr. Martin. The day the marshal made service, I believe Mr. Fink-
elstein was at the doctor's office in Brooklyn.
Mr. Weiss. I believe the marshal spoke to the doctor.
Mr. Martin. Mr. Finkelstein was able to drive his own car to
Brooklyn.
Mr. Weiss. I don't know that to be the fact, nor can I dispute it.
Chairman Kefauver. 139 Winthrop Road, Teaneck, N. J.?
Mr. Weiss. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you contact him and see if in the 3 days
we are here it won't be possible for him to come in ? It doesn't indi-
cate there is anything seriously wrong with him.
Mr. Weiss. I believe he did have one stethoscopic test of some sort,
and I iniderstood he was either going into the hospital today or the
next day for another one. I don't know. That is the information
that I received.
Chairman Kefauver. Make inquiry and let our staff know.
Let the doctor's certificate be made part of the record.
(The doctor's certificate was marked "Exhibit No. 8," and is as
follows:)
Exhibit No. 8
Brooklyn, N. Y., May 21, 1955.
Name : Louis Finkelstein. Age 42.
Address : 379 Winthrop Road, Teaneck, N. J.
To Whom It May Concern:
This is to certify that Louis Finkelstein is ill and has been under my and
Dr. Harold Berlowitz's (urologist) care for the past month. He is suffering
from a kidney and urinary bladder ailment, and is in need of additional cysto-
scopie, urinary, and X-ray observation, tests, and treatment.
Yours truly,
Samuel L. Mailman, M. D.
Mr. Martin. Eugene Mulletta.
Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. Mulletta?
65263—55 7
92 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. MuLLETTA. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your name?
Mr. Lazer. Leon D. Lazar.
Chairman Kefaxtver. You are attorney for Mr. Mulletta?
Mr. Lazer. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your address ?
Mr. Lazer. 120-09 Liberty Avenue, Richmond Hill, N. Y.
Chairman Kefauver. Your phone number there?
Mr. Lazer. Michigan 1-1515.
Chairman Kefauver. When is Mr. Mulletta scheduled to appear.?"
Would 10 o'clock Thui^day morning be satisfactory ?
Mr. Lazer. That will be satisfactory.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mulleta, were you requested to bring any
books and records?
Mr. Mulletta. I have them in the car. I have two large cartons.
It would be impossible for me to carry them.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. Mr. Butler, will some of you make arrange-
ments to see what is in the car.
Mr. Mulletta. The 1954 accounts receivable, and my bills. I am
under charges in special sessions in Long Island City on some ac-
counts. I feel that they would tend to incriminate me if they were-
shown to the wrong people.
Chairman Kiifauver. Why don't you separate what you think would
tend to incriminate you. We will argue about that later.
Mr. Lazer. We are willing to give you all the records up to 1954.
Since my client is under indictment under a charge which may be
in some way related to the purpose of the investigation here, I feel the
production of those records at this time would tend to incriminate
him. He feels that way himself.
Chairman Kefau\ter. I would be inclined to agree with you; but
you bring them in.
Mr. Lazer. We will bring the records. They are downstairs in
his car, and we will bring them right up.
The proceeding is in the general sessions court. It is a State cotirt.
Chairman Kefauver. Ordinarily an incrimination matter doesn't
relate from a State jurisdiction to a Federal jurisdiction, or vice versa..
Bring them all in and let us talk about it when you appear.
Mr. Lazer. We will do that, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. Martin. John Cassel.
Chairman Kefau^'er. You are Mr. Cassel?
Mr. Cassel. Yes.
Mr. Martin. Do you have any books and records ?
Mr. Cassel. Not books, just the records — income tax.
Mr. Martin. Bankbooks, bank statements ?
Mr. Cassel. Just one bankbook.
Chairman Kefauv'er. You were told to bring in a whole lot of
other things.
Mr. Cassel. That is all I have.
Chairman Kefauver. "\Yliere do you keep the books of your busi-
ness ?
Mr. Cassel. I have no business. I work as a shipping clerk.
Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Butler, will you catalog what Mr. Cassel
has there?
I
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 93
Mr. Cassel, can you come back at 10 o'clock in the morning?
Mr. Cassel. Could I cojne on Thursday, please ?
Chairman Ivefaltver. Tomorrow morning.
Mr. Cassel. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Martin. Roy Aid.
(No response.)
Mr. Martin. William Landsman.
Chairman Kefau^-er. You are Mr, Landsman?
Mr. Landsman. I am.
Chairman Kefauver. Will 10 o'clock in the morning be satisfactory
to you, Mr. Landsman ?
Mr. Landsman. Yes.
Chairman Kefau\er. Do you have any books and records?
Mr. Landsman. I am not in the capacity of having books and
records.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't have any at all ?
Mr. Landsman. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you have a copy of your income-tax re-
turns ?
Mr. Landsman. No, sir. I am on social security.
Chairman Kefattv^r. You have no books of any kind ?
Mr. Landsman. No, sir.
Chairman KjiFAU^-ER. No checking account?
Mr. Landsjuan. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, we will see you in the morning at
10 o'clock.
Mr. ]\L\RTix. Frank Adler.
Chairman Kefauv^er. Mr. Adler doesn't seem to be here.
Call the next witness, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Eugene O. Cavanaugh.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Cavanaugh, we are glad to have you with
us.
TESTIMONY OF EUGENE 0. CAVANAUGH, CHIEF OF THE YOUTH
SQUAD, NEW YORK CITY BOARD OF EDUCATION
(Eugene O. Cavanaugh was sworn.)
Chairman Kefauver. ]\Ir. Bobo, will you take over.
Mr. BoBO. Would you state your full name.
Mr. Cavanaugh. Eugene O. Cavanaugh.
Mr. BoBo. You are employed on the youth squad of the board of
education ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. The chief attendance officer, board of education,
city of New York.
Mr. BoBo. ^Yliat is the address ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. 110 Livingston Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Bobo. How long have you worked in that capacity ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. As chief attendance officer, 4 years; in the attend-
ance field. 27 years.
Mr. Bobo. What is your duty in the attendance field and in the
youtli squad of the board of education?
Mr. Cavanaugh. My duties are to supervise the attendance staff,
that is, including the supervisory staff and the attendance officers in
94 JUVEISIILE DELINQUENCY
the field, of which we have 32; 42 supervisory members, and 340
attendance officers.
Chairman Kefauver. State those figures again.
Mr. Cavanaugh. We have 42 supervisory members of our staff,
and 340 attendance officers. I personally supervise the youth squad
that goes about the city apprehending children on the streets during
school hours.
Mr. BoBO. Your squad has no police powers ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. They have police powers. They may arrest truants
on the streets during school hours.
Mr. BoBo. Wliat have you found to be the major activities of
truants from school?
Mr. Cavanaugh. The major activity is to find some place that they
can be entertained during school hours rather than attend school.
Moving picture houses used to be a favorite hangout of children until
the moving picture theater owners cooperated with us, and we have
very little difficulty on that score now.
Candy stores are a source '-
Chairman Kefau\t;r. You say moving picture houses used to be
a favorite hangout, but the moving picture theater owners have
cooperated with you and it is no longer true ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. It is no longer true.
Chairman Kefauver. That is something that I think ought to be
noted.
Mr. BoBO. Have you come in contact with any pornographic ma-
terial through your organization or through your own personal con-
tacts ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. Well, over the years it has been an occasional
problem. We have had pornographic material come into the pos-
session of children. It hasn't been on the increase of late, but it
still is with us.
Mr. BoBo. Has there been any increase in the number of sex offenses
among students at school?
Mr. Cavanaugh. Not that we know of ; no.
Mr. BoBo. Not among the truants with whom you deal ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. No.
Mr. BoBO. I believe that some time ago you submitted a report dated
April 12, 1955, that spoke of some of the activities that the youth
squad has come in contact with in New York City.
Do you have any objection, Mr. Cavanaugh, if we should make this
part of the record of the hearings of this subcommittee ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. I will be glad to.
Mr. BoBO. Are there any special sections
Chairman Kefauver. You said it would be all right?
Mr. Cavanaugh. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. I ask it to be appended in the record.
Chairman Kefauv^er. It will be so ordered.
(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 9," and is on file with
the subcommittee.)
Mr. BoBO. In addition to speaking of truants, and so forth, I notice
in this report :
We know that this condition contributes to juvenile delinquency. Pupils have
informed us that they have been offered alcoholic beverages, obscene literature
has been circulated, and youth in the 17 to 20 years age group are constantly
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 95
soliciting teen-age girls to accompany them on dates and automobile rides in
most of these premises.
Would you say that is an increase in activity?
Mr. Cavanaugh. Yes ; that is an increased activity. Our difficulty
today is in the local candy store where the 17-year-olds hang out, and
invite girls in, or younger children into the store ; and they are known
to hang out there ; and it is an attraction to these teen-age girls to go
to the store for whatever amusement is there. It may be for just
hanging out in the store. It may be to look at these pornographic
pictures, or it may be to drink beer, or whatever it may be.
Mr. BoBO. Have any street peddlers or the candy stores come to
your attention insofar as that they are selling or peddling porno-
graphic literature?
Mr. Cavanaugh. No.
Mr. BoBo. None have come to the attention of your department at
all?
Mr. Cavanaugh. No, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Would you say that pornographic literature has had any
effect upon truancy or delinquency among the schools of New York?
Mr. Cavanaugh. There is no doubt in my mind that pornographic
literature does have an effect upon the child.
As Father Egan pointed out, some children are able to throw it off.
Some children, it whets the appetite, and they look for more. It
creates a problem. There is no doubt that it adds to the juvenile de-
linquency that we are now faced with.
Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer, do you have any questions?
Senator Langer. No.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Cavanaugh, we thank you very much
for coming. We wish you success in your effort, which we know is a
very difficult one.
Mr. Cavanaugh. Thank you, sir.
Senator Langer. How many boys have you dealt with in connec-
tion with your work ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. In 27 years ?
Senator Langer, Yes.
Mr. Cavanaugh. I would say offhand probably there came into my
own hands — that I had personal contact with?
Senator Langer. Yes.
Mr. Cavanaugh. I would say about 50,000 children that I had per-
sonal contact with.
Senator Langer. What would be their ages ?
Mr. Cavanaugh. The ages run from 7 to 17.
Senator Langer. Thank you very much.
Chairman Kefauver. We would appreciate hearing from you.
Mr. Cavanaugh. We would be glacl to write to you.
Chairman Kefauver. Our next witness.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. and Mrs. Eobert Thoms.
(Mr. and Mrs. Robert Thoms were sworn by the chairman.)
Cliairman Kefau\t2R. Mr. Bobo, will you take over. I don't know
how you are going to testify together, but we will work it out some
w^ay.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any preference as to which one will testify
first ?
96 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. Let Mrs. Thorns tell her stoi'j'.
Mr. BoBO. Mrs. Thorns, would you state your name for us.
TESTIMONY OF ME. AND MRS. ROBERT THOMS, RUTHERFORD, N. J.
Mrs. Tho^is. Mrs. Helen C. Thorns.
Mr. BoBO. Your address where you live now ?
Mrs. TiiOMS. Seventy-three Barrows Avenue, Rutherford, N. J.
Mr. BoBO. Are you a parent?
Mr. TiiOMs. Yes.
Mr. BoBo. How many children do you have?
Mrs. Thoms. Five.
Mr. BoBO. Five children?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Mi-s. Thoms, I believe you formerly lived in Fairlawn,
N. J., and you had an experience with pornographic literature?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. And it involved your children ?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Will you tell us about that?
Mrs. Thoms. Last May my sons came in
Chairman KErAu^T:R. Last May — 1954?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes. My sons came in at dinner time, and they were
taking their baths, and I was taking the laundry down ; and as usual
I was emptying the pockets of the dungarees, and I came across
Chairman Kefauaer. How many sons are they?
Mrs. Thoms. Just one pair of dungarees had the books in them.
He was 13 years old — my son Vincent.
Chairman Kefau^'er. Go on and tell us all about it in your own
words.
Mrs. Tho:ms. At first I ])icked the two books out of his pocket and
I thought they were just children's book, and I didn't know whether
to throw it away or not. I looked inside of it, and I was so surprised.
"V^-lien I asked him where he got them he said some boy had given it
to him, and he was going to tlirow them away.
Mr. BoBO. You say that you were surprised. They weren't the type
of books you thought they were — children's books? They were the
pornographic type of books showing nude and obscene pictures?
Mrs. Thoms. No; I never had experience with anything near like it.
Chairman Kefauver. What kind of books are we talking about now ?
Mr. BoBO. Is this the type of book you are talking al)out which was
in the hand of your child?
Mrs. Thoms, Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Entitled "Jiggs"?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. And "Ella Cinders" ?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefau\t.r. Let us make it clear that some of these ]">or-
nographers haveplagiarized the names of very fine comic strips, like
Maggie and Jiggs, and Ella Cinders. That was a despicable tliinj
to do.
Go ahead, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. You found these in the pocket of your 13-year-old son ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 97
Mrs. Thoms. Yes. I asked him why didn't he show them to me.
He said he had just got them. It was at 5 o'clock. He came in the
house. It was a few minutes before 5 when he said he got them. I
said, "From who?"
He said, "A certain boy."
I went to the certain boy's house. He said he found them on the
school grounds. I took him to the police department and left one copy.
Mr. BoBO. Did the boy who had given them to your son go to the
same school, and did he lind them at the school ground in Fairlawn?
Mrs. Thoms. No. He said he found them on the school grounds
across the street from my house, but that is not where they came from.
They were being sold in the schoolyard of a school a mile away from us.
Mr. BoBO. Will you tell us how your son came into contact with these
books. Where did he get them ?
Mrs. Thoms. Would you ask me the questions more directly?
Mr. BoBO. Where did you say your son got these books ?
Mrs. Thoms. He said that this boy gave them to him.
Mr. BoBO. Did you make a further investigation to determine where
the boy who gave them to your son got them ?
Mrs. Thoms. Well, he denied it. He said he just found them on the
school ground, but later that evening my 10-year-old boy — I have 3
boys — the youngest boy said, "They sell those in the schoolyard."
Mr. BoBO. Was he talking about the school where he went to school ?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. And then did you make a further investigation to deter-
mine if they were being sold in the schoolyard where your son vras at
school ?
Mrs. Thoms. ^ es.
Mr. BoBO. Did you find that they were?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Did you find out the number of boys that were selling
them in that particular school?
Mrs. Thoms. Well, I knew of two definitely that were selling them.
Mr. BoBO. Did you go to the school authorities and ask them to
help you with the investigation ?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Were they cooperative ?
Mrs. Thoms. They were expelled boys. They have over 1,500 chil-
dren. They said they would expel them immediately rather than
keep them there and make any question about it.
Mr. BoBO. Did they give you any idea as to the extent of the traffic
in this particular school of these types of books?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes. The teacher said they had confiscated a few
in the fifth, sixth, and seventh grades — a couple of boys once in a
while would be caught with them, and the teachers would take them
away from them.
Mr. BoBO. Did you make a report to the police department about
that?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Did you receive the cooperation of the police department
in tracking down where the books had come from ?
Mrs. Thoms. Well, I don't know whether you would call it co-
operation or not. You will have to ask me more specifically. I was
98 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
told not to do anything further about it. I was told to forget about
it and not to talk about it, and let them take care of it.
Chairman Kefauver. Who told you that?
Mrs. Thoms. Police Captain Reisacker and Mr. LaGrossa, in charge
of the juvenile police. They said they will take care of it and for
me to be quiet and not do any more about it.
Mr. Bono. Did they give you any reason for you being quiet?
Mrs. Thoms. Yes. They said, ''You will only muff things. You
will do things wrong. I^et us handle it, and you be quiet about it."
Mr. BoBO. Did you go back to see them later to determine what
investigation has been made ?
Mrs. Thoms. Well, Mr. LaGrossa had come to my house, and he
said, "This is hopeless, because you are going to have to show us
evidence where a boy goes in a store and buys these books, and we
will have to see them."
I got one of the boys who sells these books
Mr. BoBO. How old a boy was this that was selling them ?
Mrs. Thoms. He was 13. He said, "I will go in and buy them ;"
and on the way down he said, "Yes; I handle the post cards, and I
have handled about 50 of these books. I buy them from this store-
keeper and sell them on the school grounds at a profit."
Mr. BoBO. Did he tell you how much he bought them for, and how
much he sold them for ?
Mrs. Thoms. He said he bought them for 20 cents, -and sold them
for a quarter up to 40 cents — whatever he could get from the kids.
I then called Mr. LaGrossa and told him, "This afternoon at 3
o'clock this boy is going to buy this book."
Mr, BoBO. Mr. LaGrossa of the police department?
Mrs. Thoms, Yes. I said, "This boy is going to buy the books. You
be there to witness it."
When I got there he was right there in front of the store, I noticed
later there were police cars parked on the block; and the boy im-
mediately got nervous and said that this man in the store was his
friend. He said, "I am not going to get him in trouble."
He immediately backed out. I said to Mr. LaGrossa that he told
me he got them from that man.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know what the man's name and the store was,
and the store name?
Mrs. Tho3is. No; just the name of their store is Jean and Al.
Mr. BoBO. Where is that located ?
Mrs, Thoms. On Broadway in Fairlawn. It is right next to a
bicycle store that all the boys patronize. The man that owns the store
IS very friendly, and his wife is there. I usually drive over. It was
a nice store ; but right next door was the candy store where on a hot
day they would go in for a coke. My son went in for a coke this
day, and the owner said, "Would you like to buy some funny books,"
so they said, "Sure,"
The man gave them these tAvo books. Pie said he destroyed them
immediately when he saw what was in them, but that proved where
they came from ; and they said they know the boys woiild go in there
and buy these books and sell them on the school grounds.
Mr. BoBO. Did you question the man as to whether or not he sold
the books ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 99
Mrs. Thoms. That da^- Mr. LaGrossa called the owner outside and
said, "Did you sell this boy obscene books f and he said, "Of course
not."
He said to the boy, "Did this man give vou the books''; and he
said, "No."
He said, "You go back in the store."
As soon as he went in the store the boy said, "Of course he did;
I have 50 of them, and post cards too, but I don't want to get them
in trouble." He said that to Mr. LaGrossa.
I said, "Isn't that enougli evidence?" Ilis mother Avas there wit-
nessing it, too. I said, "Why should this boy lie?"
Mr. BoBo. Mr. Thoms, did you go down and question tliis man
at any time ?
Mr. Thoms. Yes,
Mr. BoBo. Did he admit to you he was selling them ?
Mr. Thoms. No.
Mr. BoBO. He never admitted it?
Mr. Thoms. No.
Mr. BoBO. You never knew except what the students told you ?
Mr. Tiioms. He merely told me when he took the business over that
the books Avere in the store, and upon seeing them he destroyed them ;
a]id he claimed they were in a cigarbox under the counter; and, of
course, the boys' remarks were it was a cigarbox when they were pur-
chased by the children in town even after he took the store over.
Chairman Kefauvek. Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Tlioms.
Mr, Martin, Mr. Ben Himmell.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Himmell, do you object to these lights?
Mr. Himmell, Yes ; I do.
Chairman Kefau^^er, You have been subpenaed to ap[)ear here.
Will you be here in the morning at 10 o'clock ?
Mr. Himmell. What is this about?
Mr. BoBO. We asked you to bring in your books and records as to
your business dealings and the type of work which you are doing.
Mr. Himmell. In other words, you want my business books ?
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir ; according to the directions that were given on
the subpena.
Mr. Hi3imell, I received that subpena at 8 o'clock this morning.
Mr. BoBO. Could you have those books and records here by 10 o'clock
in the morning ?
Mr. Himmell, I will call my accountant and tind out.
Chairman Kefauver. You do the best you can to get them here by
10 o'clock in the morning.
I regret we cannot carry on this afternoon, but Senator Langer and
1 have to go back for a vote this afternoon, so we will stand in recess
at this time until 9 o'clock in the morning.
Any witnesses under subpena who haven't been told a special time
to come back will report in the morning, and we will hear them then.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 80 p. m., Mav 24, 1955, the sulx-onnnittee re-
cessed until 9 a. m.. May 25, 1955.)
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(Obscene and Pornographic Materials)
THURSDAY, MAY 26, 1955
United States S'jinate
Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary,
To In\^STIGATE Ju\rENILE DELINQUENCY,
New York, N, Y.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a. m., in room 1705,
United^States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Senator
Estes Kefauver, chairman, presiding.
Present : Senator Estes Kefauver.
Also prasent : James H. Bobo, chief counsel ; Peter N. Chumbris,
associate counsel; Vincent Gaughan, sjoecial counsel; Edward Lee
McLean, editorial director; George Butler and George Martin, con-
sultants to the subcommittee.
Chairman Kefau\-er. The subcommittee will come to order.
I regret exceedingly the situation we were confronted with yester-
day in not being able to continue our hearing; but we had a very
important piece of legislation in the Senate which I thought would
be voted on Friday of this week, but it was decided to vote on it
yesterday.
I am Sony we inconvenienced some witnesses.
We hope that Senator Langer will be with us later today, but we
will have to carry on. I dislike very much having a one-Senator
hearing, but, under tlie circumstances, we will have to proceed as best
we can.
Again I want the witnesses and the public, or anyone, to know, if
anyone's name is used adversely, and they want to make any explana-
tion, they are invited to appear immediately, and the subcommittee
will give them a cliance to testify and make any explanation.
Before hearing our first witness today, I want to take this oppor-
tunity to comment on our hearings thus for, and to say what it is that
we hope to achieve as a result of these hearings.
In my view a congressional committee, given a specific problem, has
as its first and primary responsibility the production of legislation
designed to remedy the situation which produces the problem. That
is the purpose of the Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee under my
chairmanship.
However, we cannot legislate intelligently in a vacuum. We must
know the facts. We find these facts by investigation and in public
hearings such as this one. At the same time, because these hearings
are open to coverage by all the media, we inform the public of the
101
102 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
conditions we have discovered; and in my view no problem is ever
solved witliont public awareness and interest.
In our hearings here Tuesday we established the relationship be-
tween pornography and juvenile delinquency. We did this through
the expert testimony of Dr. Benjamin Karf)man, the famous criminol-
ogist and psychiatrist of St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington ; by
the testimony of the Rev. Daniel Egan, who has done so much work
with youth for the Catholic Church ; Mr. William Deerson, director
of discipline at Haaren High School, New York ; and Mr. Eugene O.
Cavanaugh, head of the youth squad of the New York Board of
Education.
We ei^tablished the nationwide aspects of pornography through the
testimony of INIr. Peter N. Chumbris, associate counsel of this subcom-
mittee, and I am informed by counsel that we shall further show the
nationwide aspects in testimony of police and public officials of differ-
ent cities today. This interstate aspect will also be shown by documen-
tary exhibits which will be offered in evidence.
During the course of today's hearings we hope to learn through the
testimony of subpenaed witnesses of certain information concerning
the production and distribution of this material which we do not now
have.
I want to reemphasize that the material we are talking about is not
the art magazines, so-called — not the various girlie and gossip publi-
cations, which certainly border on the pornographic — but the undeni-
ably lewd, lascivious, sadistic, and perverted publications; the kind
which Dr. Karpman testified might very well upset the delicate sex
balance of a juvenile in formative years, and which Father Egan tes-
tified could not help but affect any juvenile ''who has blood in his
veins."
This material, I am informed by counsel, goes into all -18 States.
I am convinced at this stage of the hearings that certain Federal
legislation is needed. Our committee as a result of our preliminary
investigations into these problems recommended and the Senate at
its present session has adopted Senate bills 599 and 600.
These bills make it illegal to transport obscene literature across State
lines in private conveyances. It is already illegal to transmit such
literature through the mails. I intend to take the information gathered
at these hearings and go before the House Judiciary Committee, where
these bills are now pending. I hope with this additional information
to be able to convince the House of the desirability of this legislation.
Several other proposals for legislation have occurred to me during
these hearings, and we will develop further.
They are, to make it illegal to ship in interstate commerce any
publications which do not include the name and address of the pub-
lisher, or, in the case of those published outside of the United States,
the name and address of the distributor in this country.
The spelling out in legislation of a clearer and more definite defini-
tion of pornographic literature, which would include the various forms
of perversion.
To strengthen Post Office regulations, permitting the impounding
of obscene literature.
Increasing the penalties for publishing or peddling pornographic
literature.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 1()3
Strengtheuino- tlie customs laws which Ave will have a good deal
of testinionv about duriug this hearing.
IJefore we start I have been advised by counsel that Father Egan
wished one point of his testimony corrected. I think his testimony
indicated that certain publications he had brought to me in my oflice
at Washington had been purchased in Washington. I am advised
that Father Egan says they were purchased elsewhere and brought to
my oflice in Washington. I am glad to make that correction.
Mv. Bobo, are there any preliminary matters before we get started?
Mv. Bono. I would like to call the names of the witnesses who will
appear today. Inspector Roy Blick; Commissioner Lawrence A.
Whipple; Sgt. Alfred Jago; Detective John Higgins; Al Stone, alias
Abraham Rubinstein, Al Rubin, Abraham Rubin, Rubin Stone, and
Stony Rubin White; Sgt. Josei)h Brown; Lt. Ignatius Sheehan;
Edward Mishkin; Arthur H. Sobel ; Abe Rotto; Lou Sliomer; Wil-
liam Landsman ; and George Fodor. If there are any witnesses under
subpena at present, I wish you would make yourselves known at
this time.
Chairman Kefauvek. Any witnesses from out of the city, [ think
we ought to try to have them today, because we have held them here
for se\eral days. Are there any others from out of the city?
Mr. Gangel. What about Mr. Klaw^ ?
Mr. BoBO. Due to the fact that we didn't have a hearing yesterday,
we have scheduled Mr. Klaw to appear on Tuesday, so you will be
excused today.
^Ir. Gangel. To return Tuesday ?
Mr. Boi50. Tuesday at 9 : 30.
Chairman Kefauver. Let us say 10.
Mr. Gangel. I would prefer 10, if the committee would permit that.
Chairman Kefauver. 10 o'clock. Is that convenient with you ?
Mr. Gangel. Yes. That would be June 1, 1 take it ? •
Chairman Kefauver. The day after Memorial Day.
Mr. Bono. Inspector Roy Blick.
TESTIMONY OF INSPECTOR ROY BLICK, HEAD OF VICE SQUAD,
POLICE DEPARTMENT, WASHINGTON, D. C.
(Roy Blick was duly sworn.)
Chairman Kefauver. Our first witness is Mr. Roy E. Blick, Inspec-
tor in (;harge, Morals Division, Metropolitan Police Force, Wash-
ington, D. C.
1 have known Mr. Blick a number of years. I think he is capable,
hard-working, effective police officer. We appreciate the cooperation
you have given our subcommittee, Mr. Blick. We are glad to have
you here with us.
Mr. Bobo, will you proceed.
Mr. Bono. Mr. Blick, you are an inspector of the Washington Metro-
politan Police Department?
Mr. Blick. I am.
Mr. Boiio. You are the head of what is known as the morals squad «
Mr. Blick. I am.
Mr. Bono. The vice squad ?
Mr. Blick. I am.
104 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. How many years have you been employed with the Wash-
ington Police Department?
Mr. Blick. 24 years.
Mr. BoBO. And of that number of years, how many years have you
been connected with the vice squad ?
Mr. Bligk. All except 3 weeks.
Mr. BoBO. For how long have you been head of the vice s([uad in
Washington ?
Mr. Blick. I would say around 18 years, 19 years.
Mr. Bob'o. Coming within the jurisdiction of the vice squad on the
Police Department, is pornographic material within the jurisdiction
of your squad ?
Mr. Blick. It is.
Mr. BoBO. When I speak of pornographic material, would you de-
scribe what pornogTaphic material comes within the jurisdiction of
your squad?
Mr. Blick. Filth.
Mr. BoBo. Made up of books, pamphlets, film, phonograph records?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Lewd and perverted character?
Mr. Blick. Obscene, indecent, and lascivious.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any record of the number of arrests which
you have made within the last 2 yeare of persons dealing, producing,
or distributing pornographic material?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. BoBo. What is tlie number of persons that have been arrested in
Washington during the last 2 years for dealing in this type of ma-
terial ?
Mr. Blick. Approximately 34, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. BoBO. Are all of those persons adults ?
INIr. BliciJ. All except 2 or 3.
Mr. BoBO. "Wliat was the age of the 2 or 3 that were not adults?
Mr. Blick. One was 17, and the other one was 15 or 16, if I recall
correctly.
Mr. BoBO. Among those selling pornographic material, adults and
juveniles alike, have you had any occasion to notice whether or not
pornographic material was sold or distributed to those of juvenile age?
Mr. Blick. Mr. Bobo, we have received complaints on juveniles re-
ceiving this pornographic material, and we go out to make an in-
vestigation. We find out that it is true that at times these kids do
have, or that juveniles do have in their possession photographic ma-
terial that is classified obscene and indecent.
Mr. Bobo. Do you have any record of where specifically porno-
graphic material has been sold to juveniles, either sold or exhibited to
juveniles?
Mr. Blick. Only by hearsay. This material is sold from under-
the-counter. I could not under oath say that it was actually sold
to the juveniles. We have found it in their possession. We have
raided places within the bounds of the school area, and have found
with a search warrant material that was obscene and indecent.
Mr. Bobo. Inspector, did your squad or did a member of the Wash-
ington Police Department — did he or did he not pick up a deck of
62 supposed playing cards showing 52 various forms of perversion
irom a youngster of the age of 13 ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 105
Mr. Blick. We did.
Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any explanation from this youngster as
to where he received this deck of cards?
Mr. Blick. If I recall correctly, that he bought them from some
other person, but he did not know who it was from.
Mr. BoBO. Are you familiar with this particular type of por-
nography— a deck of playing cards ?
Mr. Blick. I am.
Mr. BoBO. Do you find that this particular type of pornography is
widespread in distribution?
Mr. Blick. It is.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know the selling price of a deck of these por-
nographic playing cards ?
Mr. Blick. The cheapest set you can buy them for, the black and
whites, are $5. They run from $5 to $8 a pack. The colored ones run
from $8 to $12 a pack.
Mr. BoBO. In your experience in Washington with the morals squad
or vice squad, have you had occasion to run across pornographic movie
film?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever known of any case of pornographic movie
film seing sold or exhibited to minors and teenagers ?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. BoBO. Did your squad conduct a raid in the city of Washington,
D. C, at the Don Pallini Dance Studio?
Mr. Blick. They did.
Mr. BoBO. On what date was this ?
Mr. Blick. March 18, 1953.
Mr. BoBO. In conducting this raid what were the number of teen-
■agere and minors who were present at the Don Pallini Dance Studio ?
Mr. Blick. 197.
Mr. BoBO. Ranging in age from ?
Mr. Blick. Eleven years up.
Mr. BoBO. Did you confiscate a film from this particular studio?
Mr. Blick. I did.
Mr. BoBO. What was the length of the roll of film which you con-
fiscated, Inspector ?
Mr. Blick. Approximately 1,800 feet.
Mr. BoBO. Did you detennine what the price to view this film for
:these adolescents and teen-agers was ?
Mr. Blick. The tickets were being sold for $5 per person.
Mr. BoBO. Did you confiscate any of these tickets?
Mr. Blick. I did.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any of them with you at the present time?
Mr. Blick. I do not. I believe that I have a copy.
Chairman Kefauver. Here is one. It says :
Colossal good time tonight. Admit one. Entertainment, buffet style, movies,
■beverages.
We will file this for the subcommittee.
(The ticket was marked "Exhibit No. 10,'' and is on file with the
subcommittee.)
Mr. BoBO. AVliat was the nature of the 1,800 feet of film which
was to be shown this evening?
106 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Blick. The lirst 150 or 200 feet of film was just a hula dancer,
which is a great trait for these promoters, in case that someone should
walk into these places before the film gets started, and they would
Avalk out and say they are just having a good time.
The rest of the film was the filthiest that I have ever seen in my
life.
I had Dr. Corning of the public schools, by permission of Mr.
Rover, who is a United States district attorney, to invite ministers
from the diii'erent churches, and the PTx\ and civic organizations
to come down, and newspapermen, to view the pictures. There were
quite a few of them who before the picture Avas completed were sick
from the filth that was in the })icture.
Mr. Bono. Do you have the names of the people who were showing
this film, or exhibiting it ^
Mr. Blick. I do.
Mr. BoBO. Did you make an arrest of these people at that time?
Mr. Blick. I did.
Mr. BoiiO. What were the names of these people. Inspector?
Mr. Blick. Phil Stone and Fred Sanders.
Mr. BoBO. Where do they live?
Mr. Blick. They live in Washington; one just outside of Wash-
ington.
Mr. BoBo. Do you know the city outside of Washington where he
lives?
Mr. Blick. In Prince Georges County.
Mr. BoBO. In Maryland.
Mr. Blick. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Was it College Park, Md. ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauater. l*ut in the record the address of each of those
men so it will be part of the record.
(The addresses appear on p. 107.)
Mr. BoBo. Did you determine from these persons, Phil Stone and
Fred Sanders, where they obtained this film.
Mr. Blick, I tided to, but there was very little information from
these people at first. Nobody knew the ownership of the film ; no one
kneAv anything about it.
When we came in Ave came in a little too early, and I A\as thankful
that Ave did; that Ave prevented these kids from seeing such pictures.
They had cut off the lights, and Ave gave them about 10 minutes and
Ave crashed the door and Avent up, and only the screen was up.
One of my men caught one of the men going across the roof of the
rear Avith the film, and he chased him back into the place.
We questioned tlie older men that Avere up there, and they Avere
the paters of the fraternity.
Chairman Kefai"S'er. What does that mean?
Mr. Blick. A pater tliat is supervising the children. When I seized
the machine, and tlie man kncAv he Avas going to lose the machine, he
then admitted that he Avas the one that Avas going to put the sIioav on.
That Avas Philip Stone.
Mr. BoBO. Do you mean by that "sponsor of the film" ?
Mr. Blick. No; the pater, as far as I can learn, is the overseer of
the organization that these kids belonged to.
Mr. BoBO. This Avas a high-school fraternity ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 107
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. There were tliree schools involved.
Mr. BoBO. Three high-school fraternities all belonging to the overall
same group, except the chaj^ters of them?
Mr. Blick. That is right. The following day we got a warrant for
Fred Sanders and Philip Stone. They liad a liearing in the district
attorney's office, and Fred Sanders stated that Antonelli, who was
the father of one of the boys, had come to him to see whether he
could get some pictures to show^ to the boys.
Sanders stated that he worked with Phil Stone, wlio had a motion
picture machine, and that he made arrangements Avith Stone to show
tlie pictures.
Stone admitted to it and }:)lead guilty to the charge of possession
and exhibiting obscene and indecent pictures.
Mr. Bono. Phil Stone lives at 4:')U Kowalt Drive, College Park, Md?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. And Fred Sanders lives at •ii)"^! 4tli Street NW., Wash-
ington, D.C.?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any information from these men that
they had received this film from one George Fodor?
Mr. Blick. Later on I i-eceived information that Stone had re-
ceived this film from George Fodor, from whom we made a purchase
of about five-hundred-and-some-odd dollars of material in order to
get into his house.
Mr. BoBO. When you speak of matei-ial, you are s^x-aking of ]5or-
nographic material ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Is that decks of cards, books, magazines, pictures?
Mr. Blick. Cards, film, pictures, anything that w^as indecent or
obscene.
Mr; BoBo. Did you discover whether or not Mr. Fodor had previous
records of dealing in obscene and pornographic material?
Mr. Blick. At that time, no, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you determine at a later time whether or not he
has dealt in obscene and pornographic pictures?
Mr. Blick. ^Vlr. Fodor is from Tel Aviv, and Mr. Stone has a pre-
vious record.
Mr. BoBo. In what cities did Mr. Philip Stone operate?
Mr. Blick. Canada, New York.
Mr. BoBo. Where in Canada ?
Mr. Blick. Ottawa, if I recall correctly. *
Mr. BoBo. Ottawa, Canada?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Could it have been Toronto, Canada ?
Mr. Blick. It could have been; yes, sir. He stated that someone
had i)ut that in his trunk. He said that he w^as an innocent victim
of that.
Mr. BoBo. Did you determine whether or not he had ever operated
in Miami, Fla. ?
Mr, Blick. Yes, sir. He had foui- IG-millimeter sound machines
in ]\Iiami; and he w^as confronted with that, and he stated he used
these machines to go around to the different hotels to show old type
movies.
65263—55 8
108 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Do you know of any other cities in which Mr. Stone has
operated, that your investigation showed, besides Toronto, Canada,
and Miami, Fla., and Washington, D. C?
Mr. Blick. Offhand, no.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know whether or not he ever operated in New
York City?
Mr. Blick. He had connections. I know that he had connections
here in New York. If you want me to give you the lifeline I will be
glad to do so.
Mr. BoBO. What do j-ou mean by the lifeline?
Mr. Blick. The connections.
Mr. BoBO. Yes ; I wish you would give us that.
Chairman Kefauv'er. This is from your police records ?
Mr. Blick. No ; it is from my investigation.
Mr. BoBo. From your own knowledge would you give us the lifeline,
Mr. Blick. Mr. Stone received the film from George Fodor. George
Fodor received the film from Ike Dorman, in Baltimore, Md.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have a record of Mr. Dorman ?
Mr. Blick. I do not; no.
Mr. BoBo. Do you Icnow whether or not Mr. Dorman is a known
dealer in pornographic material ?
Mr. Blick. I do.
Mr. BoBO. That he has a record of dealing in pornographic
material ?
Mr. Blick. It was just in the last 48 hours that I have the record,
whicli has not been sent to me, that we have been working on con-
stantly to locate Dorman.
Mr. BoBO. Will you make this record available to the committee
when you receive it?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir; I have asked for it to be sent to the committee.
Mr. BoBo. You were describing the lifeline of where the material
came from.
Mr. Blick. George Fodor and Ike Dorman left Baltimore, came
to New York, and they met a man named Lou Shomer, and another
person by the name of
Mr. BoBO. On each one of these would you spell out the name, and
give us the address of them if you have them.
Mr. Buck. I do not have the address of Lou Shomer. The other
man's name was Ben.
Mr. BoBo. Do yo;i know his last name ?
Mr. Blick. I do not.
Mr. BoBO. AVhere did he reside?
Mr. Blick. In New York.
Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Blick, any names that you have in your
investigation or in your police records, get the names fully, and also
the address and the city, so we can identify it in the record.
Mr. Bi.iCK. I think you have, if I may say so, Mr. Chairman, the
person who I have reference to at the present time, that he has a
subpena before this committee now, to aj^pear before the committee.
Mr. BoBO. Who are you speaking of there ?
Mr. Blick. Lou Shomer.
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir ; we have Mr. Shomer under subpena. He is from
Brooklyn, N. Y ?
Mr. Blick. That is right.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 109
Mr. BoBO. How were these materials transported from New York
to Washington? Did your investigation reveal that?
Mr. Buck. My investigation revealed that the car was left, and
someone picked the car up ; they had drinks while the car had disap-
peared ; when they came back the car was loaded, and they returned
to Baltimore by private automobile.
Mr. BoBO. They described to you that they brought their auto-
mobile to New York City, left it? Did they tell you where they had
left their automobile ?
Mr. Blick. "^Ylien you say "they," who are you talking about?
Mr. BoBO. George Fodor and Ike Dorman.
Mr. Blick. Neither one of them told me a thing. It was through
my investigation, from confidential sources that I cannot reveal.
Mr. BoBo. Do you have any estimate, Inspector, as to the number
or the value of seizures of pornographic material that you have con-
fiscated in Washington within the past 2 years ?
Mr. Blick. Conservatively I would say around $50,000.
Mr. BoBO. Inspector Blick, have you ever seized in the city of
Washington any phonograph records which are pornogi^aphic in
nature ?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. BoBO. Would you describe whether or not these phonograph
records portrayed in voice various kinds of sexual activity and
perversion ?
Mr. Blick. They do.
Mr. BoBO. How many of these pornographic records have you
seized ?
Mr. Blick. A very large quantity of them.
Mr. BoBo. Could you put an approximate evaluation upon these
phonograph records ?
Mr. Blick. At the retail value, I would say between ten and fifteen
thousand dollars.
Mr. BoBO. Is this a comparatively new innovation in the porno-
graphic field, to your field ?
Mr. Blick. No ; it is becoming more popular, thougli.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know the source of these phonograph records?
Mr. Blick. I do not.
Mr. BoBO. Are these phonograph records marked with the manu-
facturers' names?
Mr, Blick. They are not.
Mr. BoBo. Are there any addresses shown ?
Mr. Blick. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you bring some of these phonograph records with
you to New York City ?
Mr. Blick. I brought the tape recording in preference to the rec-
ords, because the records could be very easily broken on the way to
New York and return.
Mr. BoBO. You will make this tape recording available to the
subcommittee ?
Mr. Blick. I will ; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Let it be filed as an exhibit.
Mr. Blick, I liave been interested in some pictures liere that I see.
Apparently the place where this movie was being s1io\mi — here are
some pictures with whisky bottles, and the place is torn up. It looks
110 • JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
like a pretty rough party. How many boys did you say you found
there ?
Mr. Blick. Approximately 197.
Chairman KErAuvp:R. Will you identify these pictures and state
whether they are the pictures made at that place — and file them in the
record if they are.
Mr. Buck. These pictures were taken by a police photographer.
Chairman Kefau\^r. AVliat did you find in the room ?
Mr. Blick. This is the way the kids left the place. It was like a
buncli of animals stampeding, tr^dng to get out. After we had been
there and called the juvenile squad, for about an hour and a half-
one kid jumped out of the window.
Chairman Kefauver. Did it hurt him bad ?
Mr. Blick. We thought he was dead, but wdien he got up and had
tlie doctor examine him, I said, "Why in the w^orld did you jump out
of that W'indow?"
He made tlie remark, "Someone told me the police was coming in."
I said, "We have been in here for about an hour and a half or 2
hours, son."
He said, "I just got the information."
Chairman Kefauver. Some of these kids were 11 years old?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. All of them were under 21 ?
Mr. Blick. All of the kids; yes, sir. As I said, some of the men
that were there, that were the paters of the fraternity — they were there.
Chairman Kefauver. What else did you find in this room?
Mr. Blick. Contraceptive material thrown against the wall, and
on the floors that the boys had in their possession. Whiskey bottles,
beer bottles. Up on the next floor they had crap tables — these portable
tables, and card tables.
Chairman Kefaltver. Mr. Blick. have you been getting information
about similar parties of that kind that led you to raid this particular
one?
Mr. Blick. Whenever we get information of this type we work hard,
and if we cannot get sufficient evidence to get a warrant to get in, I
personally supervise the job to crash it so we can prevent these kids
from seeing or having this kind of fun, if you want to call it fun.
Chairman Kefauver. There have been other instances of this kind
that you have broken up ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. About how many in the last 2 years in Wash-
ington ?
Mr. Blick. Well, in the last 2 years I w^ould say not over 2.
Chairman Kefauver. There have been some over a period of a
longer time ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. Most of these things are not carried on in
public places. A smaller amount of boys, or a mixed crowd, will
patronize them ; and, of course, we do not get word of it.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you establish who owned this Don Pallini
dance studio at 2625 Connecticut ?
Mr. Blick. A man by the name of Kurtz. Nick Scholnick was
running the place ; also known as Nick Martin.
Chairman Kefauver. Does he have a police record?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 111
Mr. Blick. We could not fingerprint him because the District
Attorney would not give us papers against him.
Chairman KefxVuver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. At one time you arrested, on February 29, 1952, a Mr.
Vincent Chucoski, 607 Fourth Street NW., Washington, D. C?
Mr. Blick. I did.
Mr. BoBO. For Avhat was he arrested, and what did he have in his
possession. Inspector?
Mr. Blick. Vincent Chucoski at the time of his arrest at 607 Fourth
Street NW, apartment 1, had 14 boxes containing obscene and indecent
pictures, assorted photograph supplies, slides with obscene pictures
on them, obscene books, and obscene pamphlets, two movie projectors,
screens, pictures, dryers, enlargers, slide projectors, 2 rewinders, 10
albums of assorted sizes containing indecent, obscene pictures.
Mr. BoBO. Did you place a value upon this material. Inspector?
Mr. Blick. You mean a commercial value or what I would value
it at?
Mr. BoBO. A commercial value and what you would value it at.
Mr. Blick. The commercial value of this would run around from
one thousand to two thousand dollars. My value of it would be trash.
Mr. BoBO. Did you seize a card file of 500 negatives of pornographic
photographs ?
Mr. Blick. I did.
Mr. BoBO. Was this card file indexed according to the type of per-
version it represented ?
Mr. Blick. Yes.
Mr. Bobo. Did you determine from this person where the negatives
were developed ?
Mr. Blick. They tell you nothing. He developed his own pictures.
Mr. BoBO. Did you determine from this person the extent of the
traffic in which he was engaged ?
Mr. Blick. He told us nothing.
Mr. BoBo. Was this person convicted ?
Mr. Blick. He was.
Mr. BoBO. What sentence did he receive ?
Mr. Blick. Sixty days and $200.
Mr. BoBO. Among these negatives, were there any pictures of juve-
niles ?
Mr. Blick. There were.
Mr. Bobo. Have you found in pornographic material, both film and
pictures, that there is a frequency of juveniles being used as models
and to act out these scenes ?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. Bobo. What is the age of the youngest person you have seen
posed in these pictures?
Mr. Blick. About Si/o, 4 years old.
Mr. BoBO. Do you find that a number of 14- and 15-year-old boys
and girls are portrayed in acts of perversion in these films and pic-
tures ?
Mr. Blick. Not the boys as much as the young ladies.
Chairman Kefauver. Don't use any names, but you mentioned a
314-year-old. Do you want to elaborate on that, Mr. Blick?
Mr. Blick. Mr. Chairman, my undercover men went to a residence
to make a purchase of merchandise of obscene and indecent pictures.
112 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
and in his report he reported, back that the man at the time was taking
a picture of his three children and his wife, all nude. The children
were looking at the wife's person.
Chairman KErAuvT:R. You have run across a good deal of these very
young children being used in that way ?
Mr. Blick. Not as young as that ; no, sir ; but in adolescents I would
say "Yes."
Chairman Kefauver. All right.
Mr. Bono. Inspector Blick, were you familiar with the investiga-
tion made by an investigator of this subcommittee involving a person
by the name of Joe or Jake ?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. BoBO. The investigator purchased a quantity of obscene ma-
terial from Jake, who was a street peddler in Washington?
Mr. Blick. That is right.
Mr. Bobo. Do you have the full name of this person ?
Mr. Blick. James Hammon.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know his address?
Mr. Blick. Lorton, Va.
Chairman Kefauaer. That is a penal institution?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. He is serving 2 years.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have his record — the number of times of his
arrest ?
Mr. Blick. I do not.
Mr. BoBO. He has been arrested numerous times ?
Mr. Blick. He was arrested so many times, the judge finally said,
"I am going to put you away this time to be sure to keep you off the
streets."
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us in your own experience what can be
done to help stamp out this business. In the District of Columbia
it is all on a Federal level.
Mr. Blick. Mr. Chairman, I have personally asked, myself, laws
that would help us, because we come under the jurisdiction of the
Federal Government. Transportation, regardless of how the trans-
portation might be involved, would be a Federal act.
Chairman Kefau\'er. As it is now it is unlawful to send this stuff
through the mails, but the mail statute is vague and indefinite. It
is very questionable whether it covers film and phonograph records.
Mr. Blick. It covers that — anything obscene, indecent, or lasciv-
ious, it covers.
Chairman Kefauv^er. There is some question about it, though ; but
the trouble is that they carry it in trunks in automobiles, and they
may not use the mails.
Mr. Blick. That is right. The Federal law of the ICC— that is
interstate transportation — I may carry this suitcase on the train as
long as a porter on the train does not touch this suitcase, and you
caMuot charge me with interstate transportation.
Chairman Kefauver. That is the way a lot of it is transported.
Mr. Blick. That I cannot say, but it is transported. That is the
only thing I can say.
Chairman Kevauver. How about the stiffness of sentences? Look-
ing over the police records — this is your official record — $250 or 90
days; $100 or 60 days; nolle pressed, nolle prossed, nolle prossed, not
guilty, nolle prossed, $100 or 90 days. It looks like the big majority
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 113
of them either don't get convicted, or nolle pressed, or have a fine
of $100 or CO days. Do you think that is sufficient ?
Mr. Blick. I do not.
Chairman Kefauver. So you would recommend something more
than a misdemeanor?
Mr. Blick. I certainly do. This is more dangerous than narcotics,
because you inject narcotics to an individual and it is over with.
These pamphlets, these booklets, can be passed from one to another.
It is the same as a prostitute that can infect an army of men if she
is permitted to hang around the camp. It is the same as this pornog-
raphy that is being passed around. It can be passed from one hand
to another, and it is causing a lot of headaches in the country. It is
causing kids who are just at the age that they should know right from
wrong to become perverts and homosexuals.
Chairman Kjefauver. Is there any doubt in your mind that a lot
of sex crimes that we have had — that is, criminal assault, rape, and
other kinds of sex crimes, are the direct result of this pornographic
literature that is being distributed ?
Mr. Blick. That would be only my personal opinion.
Chairman Kefauver. Wliat is your opinion ?
Mr. Blick. I would say yes, because you would incite the individual
that would read such filth, and then he would go out to look for relief.
Chairman Kefauver. And there is an increasing percentage of sex
crimes, particularly among young people these days.
Mr. Blick. According to the newspapers; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Blick, I hand you here what is marked
as "Exhibit A." Is that the list of court records of people charged
and brought to trial, and what happened to them in the last 2 years?
Mr. Blick. It is.
Chairman Kefauver. Showing what the extent of the sentence was.
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Let that be filed as an exhibit in your testi-
mony.
Mr. Blick, we appreciate your cooperation and that of Chief Mur-
ray, and I want to personallj^ express my thanks for the vigor that
you and Chief Murray and your department has been going after
this sort of filth in Washington during recent times.
Mr. Blick. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You can rest assured that
we will continue to do so.
Chairman Kefauver. We hope you will continue even more vigor-
ously, if possible.
Mr. Blick. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, have you also been interested in legisla-
tion— confiscating the equipment, the automobiles that pornographers
use in their trade ?
Mr. Blick. I have. I think that the law should be passed that
where these seizures are taken from an automobile, or a bookstore,
that everything — the automobile or the bookstore, or any other store
that the buy is made in — should be confiscated. The merchant, or
whoever he might be, should forfeit his rights to all of his property
within the jurisdiction where the buy was made.
Chairman Kefauver. That is the law at present as to narcotics.
Also, when any alcoholic beverage — during the time of prohibition —
and I suppose now where it doesn't have a Federal stamp on it — it is
114 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
not only subject to contiscation, but the vehicle of conveyance is also
subject to confiscation.
Mr. Blick. Yes. sir.
Chairman Kefa'uver. You would have the same thing apply to this
pornographic literature.
Mr. Blick. If we could get the search and seizure from the narcotics
section of the narcotics la^Y to apply to pornography, it would be a
great help to us.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you, Mr. Blick.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Lawrence A. "\Vliipple.
Chairman Kefauver. You have somebody with you ?
Mr. Whipple. I have two men with me.
Chairman Kefauver. Commissioner Whipple, you have with you
Sgt. Alfred Jago and Detective John Higgins?
Mr. Whipple. Yes.
(Lawrence A. Whipple, director of public safety of Jersey City,
N. J., and Sgt. Alfred Jago and Detective John Higgins, of the Jersey
City Police Department, were duly sworn by the chairman.)
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE A. WHIPPLE, DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC
SAFETY, JERSEY CITY, N. J., AND SGT. ALFRED JAGO AND
DETECTIVE JOHN HIGGINS, JERSEY CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT,
JERSEY CITY, N. J.
Chairman Kefauver. I have been told by the members of our staff
of the outstanding effort that you, Mr. Whipple, as commissioner, and
your associates in Jersey City, have been making— the special drive
against pornographic literature, and of the wonderful cooperation
you have given. I want to take this opportunity of personally thank-
ing you for helping us, and commending you on your work.
Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. You are Commissioner Lawrence A. Whipple?
Mr. Whipple. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Director of public safety of Jersey City, N. J. ?
Mr. Whipple. That is correct, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Your address is what?
Mr. Whipple. My home address is 92 Bentley Avenue, Jersey City.
Mr. BoBO. For how many years have you been director of public
safety ?
Mr. Whipple. Since December 15, 1953.
Mr. BoBO. Were you connected with police work prior to that in
any capacity ?
Mr. Whipple. No, sir ; but I was with the Office of Price Stabili-
zation a little over 2 years in the city of New York, as the chief law
enforcement officer there, special assistant attorney general under
Attorney General Richmond in Newark for approximately a year.
Mr. BoBO. In Jersey City there has been quite a campaign waged by
your division and by the police department and by the city against
pornographic literature ?
Mr. Whipple. That is correct.
Mr. Bono. Would you tell us about this campaign which you all
have waged there?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 115
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us in your own words, and if you want
to call on Mr. Higgins or Mr. Jago to supplement anything you
say, you call on them.
Mr. Whipple. Briefly, I would like to explain it from an admin-
istrative viewpoint, and then for the details follow Senator Kefauver's
suggestion and let the two policemen carry on from there.
A short time after I went into office 1 was frankly very concerned
with newspaper reports and magazine articles I had read concerning
the distribution of this so-called pornographic salacious literature.
I had these two men dispatched to my office to work in what might
be called a confidential squad, checking newsstands and certain sources
of what we considered might be distribution points for this so-called
literature.
I instructed these men to follow any and all leads regardless of
whether they considered them crank letters or any letters of any kind
from citizens or anybody in any capacity in the city that reported
the seeing or finding of this literature on stands.
Together with this one of the denominations in the city — I don't
want to mention it unless you give me permission to — started a con-
centrated campaign in their parish, and a certain clergyman was put
in charge.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything worthwhile like that, mention the
names.
Mr. Whipple. St. Adens Roman Catholic Church. Father Van
Wie happens to be in charge. He and Father Belger, also from St.
Nicholas Roman Catholic Church — they formed committees in their
parish, comprised primarily of women who went out and visited all the
newstands, stationery stores, cigarstores or candy stores where this
literature might be found.
They called weekly and biweekly meetings. The w^omen would go
out like a vanguard or a vigilante committee, if you might call it such.
I'hey would come back and report the locations of where these periodi-
cals were being sold.
The priests would send somebody from the police department, or
one of these women, or both, to this man ; talk to him about the effect
tliat the sale and distribution of these periodicals would have upon
the juveniles, particularly in the locality, and ask him to cooperate
with the drive; to clear the stands of this literature.
I would say that in more than half the instances the dealers co-
operated. They in turn would receive an emblem or a shield which
would be pasted on the window of their stores or establishments,
where they were selling their merchandise, wdth wording something
like "Approved." It was a little short gold emblem.
In some instances we met resistance. I can recall 2 iiistances where
I happen to know counsel who represented 2 of these people. I called
them in together with one of the clergymen. We spoke to thei r counsel,
who in turn spoke to his client, and they immediately cooperated and
received a shield.
This has worked tremendously well in the city of Jersey City.
Statistics I don't have at my fingertips, but I tell you frankly and
very honestly as far as this city is concerned, this is one problem that
has not come to the surface as yet. I don't dare say it doesn't exist
there, but if it does it is well hidden.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean a'ou have <>ot it under control ?
116 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Whipple. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. And you have substantially eliminated it?
Mr. Whipple. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefaitver. Are j^ou keeping up this effort ?
Mr. Whipple. Yes, Senator. It is a day-to-day operation, and these
men have instructions that is their primary job in the department of
public safety, to stay on top of this problem and keep this filth ofT
the newsstands in the city of Jersey City.
I have styled this program a community-counteraction program,
and I don't want to leave the impression that only the Catholic Church
is doing something about this; because I firmly believe that whether
it be Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish, any civic association or society,
or religious society, could do the same thing or follow the same pattern.
It is my firm belief that this must start right at the community level
with the cooperation of all civic, fraternal, and religious societies and
associations, to rid society of what I consider to be a real menace today.
Chairman Kefauver. We have information that churches of all
denominations are doing similar very worthwhile kinds of activities
in different parts of the country, so that they are all interested.
Tell us what condition you found when you started out in this
effort, or do j^ou want to get one of your men to help out?
Mr. AVhipple. Perhaps one of the policemen should answer that.
Sergeant Jagg. When we were given this assignment we made checks
at different times of the day in and around the school areas, stationery
stores, where most of the juveniles would congregate during lunch
hours and after school.
We checked most of these newsstands, and the ones we did find we
confiscated — there might have been 6, 10, 12 books around. We made
visits later on and we kept it down more or less to a pretty good
minimum.
Mr. BoBO. Did you find this pornographic material the type of
material which you are speaking about, among schoolchildren or
children of young age ?
Sergeant Jago. No, we didn't find it among the children. It was just
salacious books that were in the stores. That was primarily our in-
vestigation— to keep that down., because Ave did receive a few com-
plaints from different parishes that there was some of it around ; but
up until the time that we — back in April — we didn't run into any of the
pornographic material at all.
Mr. BoBo. You were aiming primarily at the comic book and paper-
bound book in the neAvstands at this time {
Sergeant Jago. That is right.
Mr. BoBo. You say in April you ran into the pornographic litera-
ture trade ?
Sergeant Jago. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. Did it come to your attention this was coming into the
hands of juveniles?
Sergeant Jago. At that time due to our efforts in going around we
had in the course of our stopping different people and going into the
different stores, we more or less created a good fellowship, and we re-
ceived a call on April 23 that there Avas some strange thing going on
in the basement of one of the houses in our city.
Chairman Kefauvkr. April 23 of last year?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 117
Sergeant Jago. This year, sir, 1955. Two officers were dispatched
around there, and wlien they went in — two policemen went down into
the basement,
JNlr. Bono. Would 3'on give us the address of where you are talking
about.
Sergeant Jago. Five hundred and forty Ocean Avenue, in our city.
Mr. Bono. Do you have the name of the occupant of that property ?
Sergeant Jago. It so happened that the boy— his parents were the
owners of that property, and he lived about 3 or 4 streets away from
there, but he did take these boys into that particular building, but he
<lidn't reside there.
Mr. BoBO. His name w^as what ?
Sergeant Jago. Joseph Cinnelli.
Mr. BoBO. What is his address?
■Sergeant Jago. Forty-three Clerk Street, Jersey City.
Mr. BoBO. All right, sir.
Sergeant Jago. Two officers went into the basement, and there were
make-shift chairs or benches there, and there were six boys between
the ages of 18 and 21, and were at the stage where they were going to
witness Cinnelli showing these rolls of film. At that time he had six
to be shown. He did not start his operation when the policemen
arrived.
Mr. BoBO. Were these 16-millimeter, 8-millimeter
Sergeant Jago. He had six 8-millimeter at that time.
Mr. BoBO. Were they black and white, or colored ?
Sergeant Jago. They were black and white.
Chairman Kefauver. The chap wdiose name you gave, is he a
juvenile?
Sergeant Jago. He w\as 27 years of age.
Chairman Kefauver. How old were the kids arounds?
Sergeant Jago. The boys were between the ages of 18 and 21. Two
of them were in the service, in the Army, and four were leaving the
following week to go into the service ; and this was a little going-away
party they were having at that time.
He was taken to the precinct and questioned, and after talking to
him for a while he did admit that he had 4 more rolls of film at home ;
so the detectives went down to the house and came back with some
more — all told he had 10.
Mr. Bono. Did he tell you where he had received these films from?
Sergeant Jago. At that time he did not. That was on Saturday
night. Over the weekend he was confined to City Prison, and Monday
morning we asked the magistrate to postpone the case for 24 hours
to see if we could get the source of his supply. The judge granted
our request.
We took him to a captain's office in the precinct where the court
is also located, and we talked to him for practically 2 hours. He finally
cooperated and gave us the name of the man who w-as supplying him,
who on five different occasions he had bought film from.
Mr. BoBO. What was that man's name?
Sergeant Jago. At that time he gave us the name of Smitty. He
Imew him as "Smitty," and all he had was a phone number.
Mr. BoBO. Did he give you the phone number at that time ?
Sergeant Jago. He did, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What was that phone number?
118 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Sergeant Jago. At that time the phone number was Schuyler 4r-1800.
Mr. BoBO. Was that in Jersey City, N. J. ?
Sergeant Jago. No ; that is in New York City. It is a hotel in New
York City at 91st Street and Broadway.
Mr. BoBO. What is the name of that hotel ?
Sergeant Jago. The Grey stone Hotel.
Mr. BoBO. Did you check with that number to determine who Smitty
was?
Sergeant Jago. We checked with that number, and made a call for
Smitty, and we stayed by the phone because Smitty wasn't around;
but we were told to stand by ; that he would get in touch with us —
by the operator in that hotel.
Maybe about half an hour later we received a call from the man
known as Smitty. We spoke to him on the pretext that I was Cinelli.
I asked him could he sell me some film.
He said, "Sure, I will be right over."
I said, "I don't want it now. How about tomorrow ?"
Through our investigation knowing this man had never been in
Jersey City, we made an appointment for Secaucus, which is adjacent
to our city.
Mr. BoBO. Secaucus, N. J. ?
Sergeant Jago. Yes, sir. The next morning we had made a date to
meet him at 10 : 30, the next morning. Fortunately we were there
at 9 : 30, and Smitty got off a bus, carrying a brown leather bag ; and
at that time we went over and apprehended him.
Mr. Bono. What was the quantity of material that you seized from
him ?
Sergeant Jago. He had in that bag at that time, which was the
26th of April, he had thirteen 8-millinieter rolls of film, and one
16-millimeter. He had 216 still photographs, one rubber penis, three
decks of obsence playing cards, 70 cartoon books, six magazines, and
50 French story hooks.
Mr. BoBO. We have here an envelope marked "Exhibit No. 5".
Can 3^ou identify this envelope and say whether or not it contains
material seized in that particular raid? Do you have the deck of 52
playing cards showing different pictures of various forms of
perversion ?
Sergeant Jago. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Between men and women ?
Sergeant Jago. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you determine the selling price of those?
Chairman Kefauver. Can you identify that ?
Sergeant Jago. Yes; that is the material that he had on his person
Avlien he was apprehended.
Chairman Kefauver. The committee staff will take possession of it.
Mr. BoBO. What was the value of the material ?
Sergeant Jago. His estimate was about $500 at that time. He said
it was worth about $500. He gave us information on the still photo-
graphs which he had 216 of. He said he would receive 50 cents apeice^
but like all peddlers, he would take 40 cents or he would take 35 cents
if that is all you had on your person.
Mr. BoBO." How much did he offer to sell it to you for. Did he
determine the sale price to you ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCT 119
Sergeant Jago. Yes; he said 50 cents. Of course, he didn't stick
right to the price. The decks of obscene playing cards, which were
just disphxyed here, they were selling for $2 a deck. Magazines, he
had six of them. They were $2.50 apiece. The French story books
were anywhere from 2 to 3 dollars.
Mr. BoBO. Did you determine from him how many trips he made
back and forth between New York City and into Jersey City ?
Sergeant Jago. Well, he had never been into Jersey City.
Mr. BoBO. Or into New Jersey ?
Sergeant Jago. He did give us information that he did come in
around the docks of Hoboken, and also on one occasion he had made
a sale to Cinelli in Secaucus.
Mr. BoBO. Did you get his police record ?
Sergeant Jago. We never received a police record on him because
the arrest was made in Secaucus ; but I don't believe he had a police
record, because nothing ever came back ; but I know with the coopera-
tion we received from the Secaucus Police Department, if a record
came back he would have sent it to us.
Chairman Kefau\^er. He distributed it around in several different
places ?
Sergeant Jago. He did.
Chairman Kefauver. How did he come to you with that — in a
suitcase ?
Sergeant Jago. He had this in a man's overnight bag. He had
this material in there, and he came over on the bus from the Port of
Authority Terminal into Secaucus. The buses run over through the
Lincoln Tunnel, and out that way.
When he came to Hoboken he used to come over on the ferry — at
Hoboken, around the docks, 14th Street, the Bethlehem Steel places.
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed.
Mr. Bono. I have a picture here that I would like you to identify —
a photograph of the bag this material came in.
Sergeant Jago. Yes. In the photograph the bag is on the left, and
the other material is stuff that was seized later on.
Mr. BoBO. What disposition was made of the case?
Sergeant Jago. At a hearing in Secaucus, before Magistrate King,
he was given a year on a disorderly person charge — a year in the
county jail. He w^as held under $10,000 bail for the action of the
grand jury of the possession of the obscene literature and the films.
Mr. BoBo. I don't believe you ever gave us for the record what his
correct name was, other than the name of Smitty.
Sergeant Jago. His correct name was Andy Bruckner.
Mr. BoBO. Is he at present confined in the county jail ?
Sergeant Jago. The information we received Tuesday night, after
being here on Tuesday, was that he was released Tuesday evening on
an appeal oh the disorderly person charge.
Mr. BoBO. He is now under bond ?
Sergeant Jago. Yes ; and a subpena by your committee was served
on him.
Chairman Kefauver. He is the one we were trying to get out of jail
to bring over here?
Sergeant Jago. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. He is now under subpena ?
120 jm'ENILE DELINQUENCY
Sergeant Jago. Yes. A subpena was served on him as he left the
jail on Tuesday evening.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you participate in the arrest of a person by the name
of Selig Wildman ?
Sergeant Jagg. No ; I did not participate in that arrest at that time.
That is going back to 1951.
Mr. BoBO. In 1951 were you familiar, or do you have the record
of that case with you?
Sergeant J ago. I have a report here from our police department.
We knew about the case, but we were assigned to another precinct at
the time, and it is only since Commissioner Whipple has become di-
rector that we were given this assignment insofar as lewd materiaL
I have a record of that particular case going back to November 21,
1951.
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us about it.
Sergeant Jago. Well, it seems there was some information received
at that time by Chief James L. McNamara concerning some material
that was being sold in Ohio. There was a gentleman, a truck-driver,
who was apprehended there, and he had some material ; and he gave
the police information in Ohio that he did buy it from a fellow in
Jersey City, who does business around truck depots.
The chief assigned Lt. Mark Fallon at that tune, w^ho is now a cap-
tain, and Detective Carroll to see if he could apprehend this man as
he was coming over our highways. He was arrested November 21,.
1951, in a truck. I believe it was about a 2-ton panel delivei-y truck
wliich he was using, which we have a picture of here, and I believe
your committee has some photos, too. This is an enlargement of the
one that we did originally give you.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. That is a photo of what you found in the
truck ?
Sergeant Jago. That is the truck that he was using to transport the
material.
Chairman KErAU\'ER. Let these pictures be tiled as exhibits.
Sergeant Jago. When they apprehended him with the truck they
brought him to police lieadquarters, and at that time they found books,
cards, pictures, pamphlets, and other obscene literature, and also in
his truck he had men's work gloves and overalls, and stutf that he
would sell at these depots, and while making a sale of this particular
type he would also try to induce them to buy some of this obscene
material, which he did sell to them ; and if they went on the road to
some other city they would dispose of it there or keep it for their
own use.
Mr. BoBo. Did you investigate that truckdrivers bought this ma-
terial and transported it to other cities?
Sergeant Jago. The original complaints came from "Ohio, from
the cliief of police of one of the cities in Ohio, that a man arrested
there gave information tliat he bought it from Wildman.
Mr. BoBo. He was the truckdriver tliat picked it up in Jersey City?
Sergeant Jago. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. Was there any evaluation placed on the seizure?
Sergeant Jago. There was no evaluation, but it was given in ton-
nage. They did search his garage where he lived. He did reside
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 121
at that time at 233 Union Street, in Jersey City; and they found
in his garag-e about a ton of this particular type of niateriah
Cliairnian Kkfaivkr. Since he has been arrested and has a record,
will you give his full name and address.
Sergeant Jago. His full name is Selig Wildman.
Chairman Kefalvi'^I!. What is his address?
Sergeant Jago. He is 66 years of age. He was then in 1951. He
lived at 233 T^nion Street, Jersey City.
Mr. BoBO. Was he tried and convicted 'i
Sergeant Jagg. He was tried and convicted, and sentenced to 2 to 3
years m State prison.
Mr. BoiiO. At the present time he is in the State prison ?
Sergeant Jago. Xo; he has been released. He has served his sen-
tence.
Chairman Kefauver. This is the sign that you put in the stores
that complied to get rid of all that material ?
^Ir. Whipple. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. Let that be Hied for the record as an exhibit.
Mr. Bono. Detective Higgins, did you have anything j^ou wished to
add to what Sergeant Jago has testihed to?
Detective Higgins. Sergeant Jago covered it pretty well, but he
didn't mention the seizure in New York. I was designated, together
with a sergeant from Syracuse, and we came
Mr. BoBo. What was his name?
Sergeant Jago. I have it here, sir. Gustave Nicolia.
Detective Higgins. Sergeant Nicolia and I came to New York to
make a seizure of some salacious literature and obscene books.
Bruckner had given us the address of his hotel.
Mr. Bono. The Bruckner you si)eak of is Andy Bruckner who was
mentioned in previous testimony?
Detective Higgins. That is right, sir. He gave us permission to
come over and get the rest of this material. We went to the 100th
Street Station, and we picked up Detective Vincent Satriano. He
was of the 24th squad.
Chairman Kefauver. The New York City Police?
Detective Higgins. New York City. We went to room 411 with the
superintendent of the hotel, or the manager of the hotel.
:Mr. BoBO. Eooin 411 of what hotel?
Detective Higgins. Greystone Hotel, 91st Street and Broadway.
We seized 14 rolls of film and quite a quantity of other literature —
magazines and story books. There were 3 steel suitcases containing
12 rolls of 8-millimeter film, and two 16-milIimeter films; 6 cartons
of material — the same type that was found in the bag he was carry-
ing when he was arrested.
I think your committee has a photo of the material that was picked
up in New York. It is right here in this picture. He valued it at
about $600.
Mr. BoBO. Did you determine wdiether Mr. Bruckner ever operated
in any States other than the States of New^ York and New Jersey?
Detective Higgins. He said that was about the area that he
covered — New Jersey and New York.
Chairman Kefauver. Who is the New York policeman who co-
o])erated with vou?
122 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Detective Higgins. Lieutenant Weiss was the desk officer in charge
of the 24th squad, and Detective Vincent Satriano, shield No. 1646,
24th squad, New York City.
Chairman Kefauver. You had an authorization from Bruckner to
come over and pick up the rest of this ?
Detective Higgins. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefatts^er. I wanted to have the record made clear that
these officers worked with you.
This man Bruckner was what you call a foot peddler ?
Detective Higgins. That is all.
' Chairman Kefauver. Did you tell how much profit he was making
every week?
Detective Higgins. About $300 a week would be his profit.
Chairman Kefauver. Is that what he said?
Detective Higgins. That is what he claimed. He was paying $115
for a room in the hotel.
Chairman Kefauver. $115 a week?
Detective Higgins. A month.
Chairman Kefauver. I assume the hotel didn't know what his
business was?
Detective Higgins. I doubt very much whether they did.
Chairman Kefauver. I would like to give them the benefit of the
doubt. He was paying for his room ?
Detective Higgins. That is right, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you think by looking at the way he lived
that is probably the kind of money he was making?
Detective Higgins. I would sa}^ so.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Jago, do you have anything else to add?
Sergeant Jago. From sitting in on these hearings, and during the
questioning of Bruckner — I would like to say that he did mention,
as the inspector from Washington mentioned before, this fellow Al
Stone. We were trying to find out who were the big men. He men-
tioned Al Stone, and gave us names of local men which we turned over
to Mr. Butler of your committee.
Chairman Kefau^^er. You have helped Mr. Butler a great deal.
Mr. Butler is a lieutenant from the Dallas Police force, and he was
with us during the crime investigations.
Sergeant Jago. He did mention Morris Gillman. As far as his
source of supply, it was ]\Iorris Gillman. About 41 years of age, 1415
Davidson Avenue, Bronx, N. Y. If he needed any material he called
Tremont 2-7940 from the Greystone Hotel, and Mr. Gilman came
down, met him outside, said hello, and then they went up into the
room and did the business so far as transactions of material were
concerned.
Chairman Kefauver. Let us get the telephone number correct.
Sergeant Jago. TRemont 2-7940.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Jago?
Mr. Martin. Is that the same Gillman the committee has under
subpena now ?
Sergeant Jago. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know if the telephone number is still in use?
Sergeant Jago. No ; I wouldn't know whether it is still in use or not.
Mr. BoBO. Did this man make a statement he had ever bought mate-
rial from Al Stone ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 123
Sergeant Jago. No. It was hearsay as far as he was concerned.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else 'i
Sergeant Jago. I am looking at our report. He did mention another
phone number that he contacted in Brooklyn, who also supplied him
witli material. He called the number HYacinth 3-8636, and he would
ask for Joe. Sometimes he would get Joe, or he would get Joe's
mother, who would leave word with Joe to call Andy at the hotel.
This number was traced through the telephone company, and it was
listed to a John Robbins, residence 59 East 96th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Mr. Martin. Was any effort ever made to identify this Joe ?
Sergeant Jago. In Brooklyn ?
Mr. Martin. Yes,
Sergeant Jago. No, sir.
Mr. Martin. Were you able to obtain any information as to the
character of his operation ?
Sergeant Jago. Outside of Bruckner saying he was Mr. Big.
Mr. Martin. Did Bruckner also tell you about the character of the
car he was driving, or anything of that character ?
Sergeant Jago. He did mention that he had a Nash car. I believe he
said the color was green.
Chairman Kefauver. These numbers may be reassigned to someone
else, and we don't want to cause any trouble. I will have to order these
telephone numbers given be placed in executive session of the commit-
tee, and I will ask the cooperation of the press in not putting the
numbers out. They may be asignecl to someone else, and we don't
want to embarrass anyone.
Is there anything else ?
Sergeant Jago. I believe that is all.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Higgins, did j-ou have any observations
to make ?
Mr. HiGGiNs. Jago did a good job. He didn't leave much for me.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Whipple.
Mr. Whipple. I think that is all.
Chairman Kefaua^er, Tell us your thoughts of what the Federal
Government can do to help this problem.
Mr. Whipple. It is my considered opinion that without effective
Federal legislation, dealing as you and I know with the interstate
transportation of these articles, any effort at the community level or
the State level, of course, would be helpful ; but I think we need strin-
gent Federal legislation with very severe penalties.
I am not too sure consideration shoiddn't be given by the Congress
to maybe install some sort of a plan like we have with the Depart-
ment of Agriculture — having these sources of distribution checked,
to see what kind of material is being printed and sent out to the
various buyers of these materials.
I realize there might be constitutional prohibitions to something
like that, but at any rate I think the Congress should go to work im-
mediately and pass stringent legislation dealing with the interstate
transportation of this pornographic material.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, newspapers and magazines that have
a second-class mail permit have to give the name and address of the
publisher. All of this stuff' that you are talking about, I have ob-
served that none of it has any name of where it is published, and no
65263—55 9
124 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
responsibility whatsoever as to where it came from. That would at
least help trace it down ; wouldn't it ?
Mr. Whipple. Yes, it would.
Chairman Kefauver. You have shown what can be done in a large
city by community interest of church people. I think that is an ex-
cellent example that I hope will be heard all around the Nation.
Mr. Whipple. Thank you, Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. I want again to compliment you, Mr. Com-
missioner, and Mr. Higgins and JSIr. Jago, and those who have worked
with you, on a job well done, which I have heard a good deal about;
and also to point out what I am sure you know, that if you relax your
efforts you will have the problem with you back again.
Mr. Whipple. Thank you very much.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your
cooperation.
We will have a 10-minute recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Chairman Kefalwer. I saw Mr. Younglove, a member of the New
York Assembly, here a little while ago. He is also a member of
Mr. Fitzpatrick's committee.
Mr. Younglove, would you come up and sit up here with us? We
would be glad to have you.
( Mr. Younglove took a seat at the bench. )
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have some matter you wish
to present at this time?
Mr. BoBo. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to correct an erroneous impression concerning Mr. Roy
Aid, who was subpenaed by this subcommittee. He was called be-
cause he is a well-known writer, and supplied very valuable techni-
cal information to the subcommittee stati'. He did not fail to answer
his subpena but reported to the subcommittee's office and not in the
courtroom.
Chairman Kefauver. We will be glad to have that correction made.
Now, who is our next witness ?
Mr. I3oBO. Lt. Ignatius Sheehan, Chicago Police Department.
TESTIMONY OF LT. IGNATIUS SHEEHAN, CHICAGO POLICE
DEPARTMENT, CHICAGO, ILL.
Mr. Bobo. Lieutenant Sheehan, vour first name is spelled I-g-n-a-
t^i-u-s?
Lieutenant Sheehan. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Bobo. And you are head of the censor squad of the Chicago
Police Department ; is that the name of it ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. How long have you been head of the censor squad of the
Chicago Police Department ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Since 1952.
Mr. BoBO. For how many years have you been connected with the
Chicago Police Department ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Thirty-three years.
Mr. BoBO. Has all of that time been devoted to so-called censor
squad vice or moral squad?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 125
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. The last 4 years, the past 4 years.
Mr. BoBO. Is part of your duties as head of the censor squad the
keeping up of traffic in pornographic literature as one of your prime
responsibilities ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any estimate as to the extent of what the
traffic is in pornographic material in the city of Chicago?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, that would be hard to say. It is from
the arrest of distributors that it would run into large figures.
Chairman Kefauver. Lieutenant Sheehan, that microphone is not
for the room; it is just for the radio or television; so you speak up so
that we can hear you.
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. ;Most of this business — and you are familiar with the
operations of those dealing in pornography — is a surreptitious bus-
iness and an under-the-counter business; is that correct?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you been able in your dealings with those selling
pornographic material, to determine a source of supply for those you
have arrested ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. First, how big did you say the business was?
I suppose Chicago is like most other cities, the same problem every-
where, even in rural sections. Is it big business in Chicago?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir; that's right, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. A lot of it hard to keep your fingers on ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes ; it is a tremendous business.
Mr. BoBO. The type of pornography with which you have come in
contact, is it generally the type of pornography that has been de-
scribed here this morning by the other police officers?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Do you find a great number of movie film, 16-millimeter,
35-millimeter, and 8-millimeter movie film?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Mostly 16-millimeter and 8-millimeter, in the
pornography.
Chairman Kefauver. Are these films that you are talking of movies
too?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Some of them ; yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you discovered them in color also ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. In color also.
Mr. BoBO. Does the pornographic traffic in Chicago also include
the deck of 52 playing cards, the 4-by-5 French novelty, the 2-by-4
comic-book type, plus the still photos in color and black and white
pictures describing all acts of perversion?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Has your investigation into dealers of pornographic
material in Chicago shown that it is produced in that city?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Has your investigation revealed where the pornographic
literature reaching Chicago comes from?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheelian, I believe you participated in the
arrest of a person by the name of Frank Mustari, alias Frank Lano ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
126 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. On what date was Mr. Mustari, alias Lano, arrested?
Lieutenant Sheehan. In February of 1954.
Mr. BoBO. At that time what was his address ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. 1356 North Parkside Avenue, Chicago, 111.
Mr. BoBO. Is Mr. Lano presently living at this address or is he
incarcerated ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir; he is living at that address.
Mr, BoBO. When you arrested INIr. Lano in Chicago, what was the
type of pornography which he had in his possession ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. He was arrested by the Oak Park Police De-
partment. They got something like $15,000 worth of different material.
Mr. BoBO. That included films, books, pictures, playing cards?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Lano reveal to either you or — were you engaged
in that case, Lieutenant ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Indirectly ; yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. You participated in that ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. It came from our office.
Chairman KEFAimsR. You had no supervision over it; is that it 2
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Lano, or did your investigation reveal where
he had received this material from?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Through our investigation; yes. Not from
Mr. Mustari, but another party.
Mr. BoBO. Your investigation revealed where it was from. Where
was that. Lieutenant?
Lieutenant Sheehan. From New York City.
Mr. BoBO. Did your investigation reveal from whom he received
it in the city of New York ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Who is that person?
Lieutenant Sheehan. A1 Stone, alias Abraham Rubinstein, alias
Abraham Rubin, Ruben Stone, and Stoney, Ruben AMiite. Those are
his aliases. He was known to us as Al Stone.
Mr. BoBO. Known to the Chicago police as Al Stone?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did your investigation show how Mr. Lano received this
material from Mr. Stone?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. And how did he receive this material from Mr. Stone?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, they will come to New York City and
procure a hotel room. After putting their car in a designated
garage
Mr. BoBo. Do you have the name of that designated garage?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Continue, please.
Lieutenant Sheehan. Then Lano would call Al Stone. In turn,
Stone would pick up, or have Lano's car picked up.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have the number at which he would call Stone ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Iveeauver. The number will be treated as in executive
session.
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. All right, sir. Continue.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 127
Lieutenant Sheehan. Is it all right to read it ?
Mr. BoBO. Don't read tlie number ; no, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Give the subcommittee the number.
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Write it out and give it to the subcommittee.
Lieutenant Sheehan. I think the subcommittee has it.
Mr. BoBO. We already have it.
Chairman Kefauver. The staff will furnish the number.
Go ahead. We will call it No. X.
Mr. Sheehan. Shall I continue?
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir; go right ahead. He would call Mr. Stone
Lieutenant Sheehan. And Stone would have his car picked up.
He would buy about $2,000 worth of material from Stone. It would
be put in his car and his car delivered back to the garage. Then he
would pick it up and return to Chicago.
Mr. BoBO. Was there any value put on this $2,000 worth of material
as it was delivered in Chicago, its resale value?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What was the value of each carload?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Oh, about $5,000.
Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Lano state how many trips he made between
New York City and Chicago ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, our informant did, he made four trips
a month.
Mr. BoBO, He would average approximately $12,000 a month, con-
sidering $3,000 profit each trip and 4 trips per month?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. At times he would stop off and
drop off a load at Indianapolis on his way back.
Mr. BoBO. Indianapolis, Ind. ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did he state to whom he would drop this load off, or
did your informant, or did your investigation reveal to whom he
would deliver this material in Indianapolis ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; he did not give us the name.
Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, are you familiar with the Fuller
Brush Man series of comics — and let me say that this a a plagiarized
name from the Fuller Brush Co..
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
]Mr. BoBO. Do you have any information as to who the originator
and chief distributor of this particular type of pornographic comic
was?
Lieutenant Sheehan. A1 Stone was originally reported as the
original printer and originator of this Fuller Brush Man porno-
graphic type of literature.
]\Ir. BoBO. This particular type of series covered all types of sexual
perversion ?
Lieutenant Sheehaist. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. In a comic book drawing ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Drawing ; yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. From the sources of information available to you as head
of the censor board of the Chicago Police Department, do you have
any opinion as to the size of dealer in pornographic material that
Mr. Al Stone is?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; I have not.
128 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Has his name come to your attention in any other case
other than this one?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant, did you also take part, or are you familiar
with the arrest of Mr. Clarence Anderson of Elgin, 111. ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Was that raid made in cooperation with the Illinois
State Police?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you determine during the course of this investigation
the source of supply for this particular dealer ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, he was a printer — he was a printer and
distributor himself.
Mr. Bobo. He was the printer and distributor and publisher ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Himself; sir.
Chairman Kefauver. That was one of the big sources of supply in
that part of the country ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. In the Middle West, yes.
Mr. BoBO. During the raid on this man Anderson, how much ma-
terial, pornographic material, was confiscated ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, we valued it at, the police value, at
about $25,000.
Mr. BoBo. Did it consist of two truckloads of material ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What size trucks?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, big stake trucks, the regular large
trucks ; big trucks.
Mr. BoBo. In this particular seizure were there 1,000 rolls of porno-
graphic film ? ,
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Anderson process this film himself ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Also included in this raid were there 1,500 rolls of porno-
gra]ihic film which had not yet been printed ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, that was the raw film that had not
been — just the raw film,
JNIr. BoBo. It had never been taken off?
Lieutenant Sheehan. I presume that was what he had it for.
JNIr. Bobo. Did you determine during this investigation where the
models or the actors in these pornographic films were obtained?
Lietenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bobo. Where were these pictures taken ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. One was taken at 746 Oakwood Boulevard.
That's tlie Oakwood Hotel. On the South Side of Chicago. It was
taken u]i in a hotel room.
Mr. BoBO. These people would just rent a hotel room and go in
there with their equipment, without knowledge of the hotel ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, this man named Edgar Flagg.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell that, F-1-a-g-g?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir; F-1-a-g-g.
Mr. Bobo. "Wliat is his address ; where does he live ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. He lives at 746 Oakwood, and he was man-
ager of the hotel.
Mr. BoBO. Was he aware of the fact that pornographic films were
beinsf taken in his hotel?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 129
Lieutencant Sheehan. These girls said that he took the pictures,
that Flagg took the pictures.
Mr. Btmo. He took the pictures and in turn he sold them to
Anderson ?
Lieutenant Sheeiian. Either that or he sent them out there for
processing. That is how we got them, from Anderson.
Mr. BoBO. And this 1,000 rolls of lewd film, were some of them of
the same title or the same acting, or were each one of the 1,000 a
different film?
Lieutenant Sheehan. They were different film, each one. They
were the same type of acts of perversion.
Mr. BoBO. The same type of acting, but each one was a different
subject and a different film?
Lieutenant Spieehan. Yes, sir.
Mr, BoBO. Did you have an opportunity to view any of this film.
Lieutenant ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Included among the actors, both among the men and
the women, were there any apparent juveniles as actors in these
films ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did the records at the time at which you raided Mr.
Anderson show that Mr. Anderson had bought quantities of porno-
graphic material from others, or did he produce all of them?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, I would say some of it was sent to him
through — produced for him. They would take the original film and
have him process it for them.
Mr. BoBO. Did any of his records indicate that he had purchased
material from a person by the name of Morris and a person by the
name of Eddie ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Were there any other identifying marks' concerning the
men Morris and Eddie ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. The only thing was Flint, Mich.
Mr. BoBO. The name of Morris and the name of Eddie would fit
the Michigan notation?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did Mr. Anderson describe to you or identify to you
who Morris and Eddie were?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, he said they were the same, one and the
same person.
Mr. BoBO. Just going under different names?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Different names wdien they buy; and that
they would buy from him, this one particular Ecldie and Morris.
Then Morris would distribute it all over the Middle West.
Mr. BoBO. Did Anderson give you any idea as to how distribution
was made? Was it made through the mails, through Railway Ex-
press, or through private conveyance?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Mostly through private conveyance, automo-
bile.
Mr. BoBO. When it was loaded on these stake-body trucks was it just
in the process of being delivered some place, at a distance ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No. It was all loose in the back of his garage,
in his garage.
130 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO, The trucks were in his garage loaded ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir; it wasn't in — it was loose in his
garage, and he loaded them into tracks.
Mr. BoBO. During this investigation did you determine what the
wholesale price of 16-millimeter film was ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. And what price was what?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, anywhere from $25 to whatever the
traffic would allow, and that he would charge. But that was the
lowest.
Mr. BoBO. That is, the film after it had been made into a picture?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. And he would sell it for anything the traffic would bear,
ranging from $25 up?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. That was for each film?
Lieutenant Sheehan. For each film.
Mr. BoBO. Did there appear to be any type of connection between
dealers and buyers in this film, such as trading in one roll of film at a
reduced price for a new roll of film?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. I got a receipt here from Ander-
son's Film Rental Service, where Morris bought film and he owed
$659. He traded in other film back to him of $360.
Mr. BoBO. That would more than balance the difference ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Let that be made an exhibit, Mr. Anderson's
firm name seems to be Anderson's Film Rental Service, 1047 Morton
Avenue, Elgin, 111. Is that it?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. He has a legitimate film store in
the front. In the back in his garage is where he had all the obscene
stuff.
(The receipt referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 11," and is as
follows:)
Exhibit No. 11
Anderson's Film Eental Service
elgin, ill.
Order No
Name : Morris.
Address: Flint, Mich.
Oct. 27, 1952:
Bouglit goods $410
419
Paid 100
Balance 319
Nov. 13, 1952:
Goods 340
659
Films and cash ($275 in films) 360
Balance 299
Dec. 18, 1952:
Balance 77
Paid in full.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 131
Mr. BoBO. In addition to the arrest of Anderson in this case, were
any other persons arrested ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir. This Edgar Flagg, I spoke about,
that took the pictures up in the hotel room. And a girl named The-
resa Anderson, Gene Newton.
Mr. Bono. Do you have the addresses of these persons ?
Chairman Kefauvek. Well, were they convicted ?
Lieutenant Shi-^ehax. No, sir. Flagg was convicted. The girls
were all discharged.
Chairman Kefauver. They were all disciplined?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Did they plead guilty ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No ; but they testified for the State.
Chairman Kefauver. They said that they were participants?
Lieutentant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Suppose you leave their names out.
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bono. In addition to the film, this confiscation also included
600 decks of pornographic playing cards?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Let me see if I understand. This 1,000 rolls
of films, the pictures had been taken, were they all different pictures?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Every one was a different subject. It was all
on the same pornographic type.
Chairman Kefauver. The same type, but each one was a differ-
ent
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr, CiiuMBRis. Lieutenant, from those couldn't more be developed ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Oh, thousands.
Mr. Chumbris. As many as you wanted ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. He could keep developing as many as he
wanted.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What sentence did Clarence Anderson receive as a re-
sult of this raid ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. He received 2 years probation.
Mr. BoBO. Two years probation ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Has he come to your attention at any time since that ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO, Was he again caught selling pornographic material in
Walworth County, Wis. ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
IVIr. Bono. What was the charge against him in Walworth Comity?
Lieutenant Sheehan. He was charged, he was arrested on Febru-
ary 14, 1954, charged with reckless driving, and possession of obscene
film. He was fined $750 and costs, and the films were destroyed by
the order of the court.
Chairman Kefauver. Let me see if I understand this correctly.
You mean this first operation, with all this material about which you
are talking, he was convicted after a trial in court and given 2 years
and put on probation ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. In what court was that?
132 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Lieutenant SnEEHAisr. That was the judge of the county court of
the county of Geneva, 111. It wasn't in our county where the arrest
was made. We had to try the case in Geneva County.
Chairman Kefauver. You were down there during the trial?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. All right.
Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, are you also familiar with a case
involving a Mr. Sam Atlas, A-t-1-a-s?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo, Do you have the address of Mr. Atlas ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. oiOl Beach Street, Chicago, 111.
Mr. BoBO. In this case, can you give me the approximate retail
value of the material seized, pornographic material ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes. It would be about, around $20,000 in
wholesale.
Mr. BoBO. What was involved in this, was it the same type of
material ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir ; 16-millimeter motion-picture films,
all motion picture-printer and developing tanks; 1,958 pages of
paper-bound obscene books; 800 obscene photographs; 117 red carton
decks of obscene playing cards; and then 35 of the black and white
obscene playing cards; 11 reels of 8-millimeter movie film; 1 black
plastic viewer with 15 obscene poses on 35 millimeter film.
Mr. BoBO. Prior to this time had the Chicago police department
been aware of any large scale traffic in pornographic literature?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir; not to any great extent.
Mr. BoBO. Is it your opinion that in the last 5 years the traffic
in pornographic literature has greatly increased?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. How many men do you have assigned in the Chicago
police department to pornography investigation ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. We have four assigned that specialize in
that.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any information of pornography coming
into the hands of children of school age or younger ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; I can't say that I do.
ISIr. BoBO. No case has ever come to your attention where a child
received pornographic literature or viewed pornographic literature in
any manner ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. We had one case where, I think he was a 12-
year-old boy, came to school and he had 1 card of a 52-deck, obscene
playing card deck. The principal called us and we found out he got
it from his grandfather; that he lived with his grandfather and he
got it out of his dresser drawer.
Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, you have been very active in the
Illinois Legislature. Would you have any recommendations that you
would make to make the traffic in pornography more difficult ?
Mr. Sheehan. You mean from
Mr. BoBO. From the Federal viewpoint.
Chairman KE^AU^^ER. Tell what he tried to do in the Legislature of
Illinois this year.
Lieutenant Sheehan. We asked for a bill, which is now in the leg-
islature, making it a violation to sell to minors, any boy or girl under
18 years of age.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 133
Chairman Kefauver. Making it a felony ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir ; a misdemeanor — not on pornography,
on girlie books and these pocket-sized books. That was what they
were doing in Springfield. We got the law on
Chairman Kefauver. You got the law passed ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. It is pending now in the legislature.
Chairman Kefauver. The legislature is still in session ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you have a copy of the bill you proposed ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Let it be filed as an exhibit.
Lieutenant Sheehan. I have a copy of my statement before the
legislature.
Chairman Kefau^^er. All right, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Lieutenant Sheehan, in view of your experience in the
Anderson case, where such a large quantity of this material was seized
that had moved both intrastate and in interstate traffic, as a policeman
would it not be helpful to you if the degree of the offense was not
raised from a misdemeanor to a felony ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Oh, it would help us an awful lot. The best
sentence we ever got was where a jail sentence was proAnded of 6
months in the county jail. You can either fine, or 6 months in the
county jail. It is just a misdemeanor in the State of Illinois now.
Mr. BoBO. Usually it amounts to nothing more than a small fine,
which is practically a license to operate?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Nine out of every 10 is a' fine.
Chairman Kefauver. Lieutenant Sheehan, is there anything else
that you want to tell that would be helpful to the committee?
Lieutenant Sheehan. I think I covered everything I recall.
Mr. Martin. I have a question. Senator, if I may.
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Martin. Lieutenant Sheehan, I notice in examining this Atlas
inventory here, that included in the seizure was one .45 caliber auto-
matic pistol, Army Colt, with clip and several rounds of ammunition.
I woncler if you could shed any light on that ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No; I cannot. He was given the gun back
bv order of the court. He showed where he owned it and was entitled
to it.
Mr. Martin. In connection with Sam Atlas, there is a record here,
too, of a peddler who went to the house and obtained some material.
One Walter Liepert, stuff that was confiscated from his car included
three rifles.
Lieutenant Sheehan. Well, he claimed he was hunting; they were
hunting rifles.
Mr. Martin. That is all.
Mr. Chumbris. Lieutenant, Anderson was placed on probation in a
court in Illinois ; is that correct ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Then after he was put on probation he went into
Wisconsin ; is that correct ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And while in Wisconsin he was apprehended, ar-
rested, convicted, and placed on probation again in Wisconsin ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir.
134 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any information as to whether the
Wisconsin court was advised of the probation in Illinois?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir. Of course we knew about it when
we wrote — I believe it was in the — we read it in our newspapers where
he had been arrested and convicted up in Walworth, and we wrote to
the sheriff up there, and he verified it.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any information that the State's
attorney in Illinois contacted the State's attorney in Wisconsin in
this matter ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. It would be a breach of parole would if not
if he was caught the second time ?
Lieutenant Sheehan. It would. Our State's attorney wrote the
judge of Geneva, 111., Geneva County, and told him about the arrest
in Wisconsin, and how he violated his probation, but we never heard
back.
Chairman Kefauver. Anderson is still out?
Lieutenant Sheehan. Yes, sir ; he is still in business.
Chairman Kefau^^er. Thank you very much. Lieutenant Sheehan.
We appreciate your cooperation with our subcommittee. Thank you
for coming here to testify.
Who is our next witness, Mr. Bobo?
]\Ir. Bobo. Sgt. Joseph E. Brown.
TESTIMONY OF SGT. JOSEPH E. BROWN, OE THE DETROIT, MICH.,
POLICE DEPARTMENT
(Sergeant Brown was sworn b}^ the chairman.)
Chairman Kefau^ter. You may proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. Bobo. You are Sgt. Joseph E. Brown, of the Detroit Police
Department ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Cliairman Kefaua-er. Sergeant Brown, you are a great big man.
Will you speak loudly so everybody can hear ; will you, sir ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. How long have you been with the Detroit Police Depart-
ment, sir?
Sergeant Brown. Since October 15, 1945.
Mr. Boiio. At the present time what is your duty assignment?
Sergeant Brown. I am the sergeant assigned to the censorship
bureau of the police department.
Mr. Bobo. Included in that responsibility is books, magazines,
movies, night clubs, and pornographic literature ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bobo. Would one of the primary duties which you have be the
enforcement of the laws regarding pornography ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. That is one of the most important
functions of the bureau. The separation of obscene literature and the
apprehension and conviction of the people that deal in it.
Mr. BoB(j. Sergeant Brown, has it ever come to your attention in
Detroit as to whether or not pornographic material is coming into the
hands of juveniles?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 135
Sergeant Brown. I can think of no specific instance where it has
come into the hands of juveniles. If it has, it woukl be an isolated
case.
Now I am speaking of out-and-out pornography, with which the
subcommittee has been dealing, I presume.
Mr. BoBO. This is usually a very clandestine type of operation. You
do not deal with the juvenile squad yourself, do you?
Sergeant Browx. No, sir. We have a youth bureau in the police
department that has been in function about 3 or 4 years, established
by the police commissioner. They deal primarily with juvenile prob-
lems in the city of Detroit.
Mr. BoBO. Sergeant Brown, on May 18, 1953, did you have an
occasion to arrest a person by the name of Al Stone ?
Sergeant Brown. I did.
Mr. BoBO. For what was his arrest?
Sergeant Brown. For possession of obscene movie film.
Mr. BoBO. Did you have the address of that man, Al Stone ?
Sergeant Brown. The address that he gave at the time of his appre-
hension was 1639 41st Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. That was what the
driver's license indicated was his address.
Mr. BoBO. Did he have other aliases?
Sergeant Brown. He was known as Al Stone. The operator's
license was issued to Abraham Rubin.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell it ?
Sergeant Brown. R-u-b-i-n. Those are the two names that I know
Mr. Stone by.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have his record that would indicate any other
aliases?
Sergeant Brown. I have a record here from the Detroit Police
Department, Al Stone, mug No. 109385, showing 10 arrests. At the
time of these arrests, they were all Abraham Rubin.
Mr. BoBO. All going under the name of Abraham Rubin ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. When he was arrested in Detroit on May 18, 1953, what
did you say he had in his possession ?
Chairman Kefauver. You have read from the police record. Is
that the official document there?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. That is the request for a warrant, Mr.
Chairman, that was drawn up.
Chairman Kefauver. All these arrests, is that on your official rec-
ord there ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you file that so we can have that as a
part of our record? You also have his photograph there?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. That will, then, be filed as exhibits.
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 12," and is on file with
the subcommittee.)
Chairman KEFx\u^^E'R. Where were these arrests?
Sergeant Brown. The one arrest was in Detroit.
Chairman Kefauver. Where were these others on the record?
Sergeant Brown. Starting chronologically. In 1928, New York
City. The charge was rape. He was discharged.
136 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
1930, New York City. Reckless driving. 30 days.
1932, in Poughkeepsie, N. Y. The charge was possession of ob-
scene literature. Six months, suspended sentence.
In 1933, Darien, Conn. Possession of obscene pictures. Sentenced
to a fine of $250 and costs, and 6 months in jail. The jail term, I
believe, was SS. I think that indicates suspended sentence.
1933, in Buffalo, N. Y. There is a number here, I don't know what
the number indicates. It is 1141-P. L., it is apparently a law num-
ber. He received 3 months in the Erie County Penitentiary, that's
Erie County, N. Y.
Mr. BoBO. For the record, that 1141-P. L. is the Obscene Statute of
the State of New York
Sergeant Browx. I was not aware of that, 1141-P. L. is the way
it is indicated on the record.
And in 1939, Erie County — no ; that's the same record, I am sorry.
It refers to the above-mentioned arrest.
In 1934, in Albany, N. Y., possession of obscene pictures. Seventy-
five dollar fine or 30 days in Albany County Jail.
1934, in Providence, R. I., possession of indecent literature. Thirty
days in the Providence County Jail.
1934, in Howard, R. I., possession of obscene pictures. Sentenced
to 30 days and costs. May 18, 1953, Detroit, Mich., possession of
obscene literature, $100 fine and 90 days imprisonment in the Detroit
House of Correction.
Mr, Bobo. Wlien he was arrested in Detroit he had 558 rolls of
obscene movies ?
Sergeant Brown. That is right. Five f undred and fifty -eight rolls
of motion-picture film, consisting of 501 8-millimeter, and 57 16-milli-
meter prints. Of these reels, they were pornography, per se, each
and every one.
Mr. Bobo. Showing all types of sexual perversion ?
Sergeant Brown, That is right.
Mr. Bobo. Did you also find on Mr. Stone, alias Rubin, an address
book?
Sergeant Brown Yes, sir.
Mr. Bobo, Listed in this address book, who was listed in this address
book, Sergeant ?
Chairman Ivefauver. Well, let's see about that, now.
Let the address book be in executive session, but you can tell where
connections are made in the address book.
Sergeant Brown. New Orleans, La.; Utica, N. Y.; Philadelphia,
Pa. ; Syracuse, N. Y. ; Utica, N. Y. ; Brooklyn, N. Y. ; Brooklyn, N. Y. ;
New York City; Philadelphia, Pa.; Chicago, 111.; Chicago, 111.; Chi-
cago. 111.; Bellaire, Ohio; Jacksonville, Fla.; St. Louis, Mo.; Pitts-
burgh, Pa.; Harrisburg, Pa.: New Orleans, La.; Chelsea, Mass.
Chicago, 111.; Sheffield, Ala,; St. Louis, Mo; Columbus, Ohio; Lan-
caster, Ohio; Jacksonville, Fla.; Louisville, Ky.; Pittsburgh, Pa.:
Gettysburg, Pa.; Scranton, Pa.; Washington, D, C; Indianapolis
Ind. ; Pittsburgh, Pa. ; Marbury, Md. ; Pittsburgh, Pa. ; Chicago, 111. :
Detroit, Mich.; Louisville, Ky.; Indianapolis, Ind.; Birmingham
Ala.; Rome, Ga.; Birmingham, Ala.; Atlanta, Ga.; Linton, Ind.
Flint, Mich.; St, Louis, Mo,; New Orleans, La,; Baltimore, Md.
Reading, Pa, ; Richmond, Va, ; Salisbury, N. C.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 137
Now, there are other names with those numbers indicated in those
cities listed.
Mr. BoBO. Were any of the persons listed on that list known to you
to be dealei-s in pornographic material ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. The Bizon Sales, 12th Street and Pin-
gree in Detroit, Mich. The proprietor of that establishment has twice
been convicted of the sale and possession of obscene literature in the
city of Detroit. The first time he received a fine of either $90 or $100
under the misdemeanor. On the second offense we prosecuted this
defendant under a statute that we have in Michigan, making the sec-
ond offense a high misdemeanor, which is punishable by $500 fine or
a year in the House of Correction. He was convicted of the second
offense and was fined $100 or 1 year.
1 might also add at this time, if I may, that in the State of Michigan
under our statutes 753-43, under which we operate, the obscenity
statute, the third offender, upon conviction, or the third offense is
treated as a felony, and we have 1 defendant that was convicted about
3 or 4 weeks ago, or he was convicted about 3 or 4 months ago under
the second offense of the act. He received 10 months probation.
One of the officers from our bureau made another purchase of ob-
scene material about a month ago from this defendant. He was imme-
diately ordered at a probation hearing to serve 10 months in the Detroit
House of Correction, and he will then be tried in felony court as a third
offender,
Mr. BoBo. Was there also taken from ]Mr. Stone at this time a road
map showing the route that he had covered ?
Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute, before you get to that.
Sergeant Brown, the names in the address book that you investi-
gated turned out to be pornographic dealers ; is that not so ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. This one name in particular, Mr. Chair-
man, was
Chairman Kefauver. You have Mr. Chumbris who gave the story
about Lou Saxton in Pittsburgh, who was a dealer, in his testimony
the day before yesterday. Do you have Lou Saxton as one of the
names, from Pittsburgh ?
Sergeant Brown. There was a name listed, Mr. Chairman, as Lou,
Pittsburgh, Pa. No address showing and no last name showing.
Chairman Kefauver. Then do you have listed a Japloski who has
been convicted in St. Louis? We have a record of him distributing-
lewd literature, but he resides in Jacksonville, Fla. Is his name
listed?
Sergeant Brown. What was the name again, Mr. Chairman?
Chairman Kefauver. Japloski.
Sergeatn Brown. T\^iat was the first name ?
Chairman Kefauver. Stanley Japloski.
Sergeant Brown. Mr. Chairman, I have a Stanley listed, Jackson-
ville, Fla., no last name.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have his address ?
Sergeant Brown. No; there is a notation, numerals is all that is
listed.
Now, should I read the numerals ? There is no indication — it pre-
sumably is a phone number, although there is no exchange listed, it is
merely numerals.
138 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. If you "will look further on that list you will find
another reference to Jacksonville, Fla., that might indicate that name.
Sergeant Brown (complying). Yes. On further observation I find
a Stanley, no last name listed, in Jacksonville, Fla., on Washtonian
Street. It is 3510 Washtonian Street.
Chairman IvErAu%"ER. Proceed, ISIr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any reference to Anderson in Elgin, 111 ?
Chairman Kefau^^er. He did not read Elgin.
Mr. BoBo. Sergeant, while you are checking that also, would you
see if you have one listed Eddie in New York City ?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. With no address given ? It is on the part of the list, I
think. Sergeant, that does not have the addresses, and so forth, the
bottom part of the list.
Sergeant Brown. I see in the second group an Eddie listed just as
that, no last name given.
Mr. BoBO. Is a telephone number given ?
Just keep the telephone number in executive session.
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir. I presume that that is a phone number.
Chairman Kefauver. Is that the same number we had here a little
while ago ?
Sergeant Brown. I don't recall the other number. You mean in my
testimony, Mr. Chairman ?
Chairman Kefau\'er. No ; in somebody else's testunony.
Sergeant Brown. Not to ni}^ knowledge.
Mr. BoBO. Sergeant, do you have any suggestion or any comments
you might want to make on pornographic literature ?
You also confiscated from Mr. Stone at the time of his arrest a
roadmap showing the route covered by him ?
Sergeant Brown. Here is a roadmap that was taken by me from the
automobile, or the glove compartment of his automobile at the time of
his arrest [exhibiting].
Chairman Kefauver. Does he have his route marked where he had
been going ?
Sergeant Brown. Mr. Chairman, it has a route marked fi'om the
city of New York to Philadelphia, to Harrisburg, Pa. ; Pittsburgh,
Pa.: Akron, Ohio; Toledo, Ohio: Detroit, Mich.; Fort Wayne, Ind.;
Indianapolis, Ind.; St. Louis, Mo.; Louisville, Ky. ; Charleston,
W. Va.; into Richmond, Va. It terminates at Richmond, Va., the
markings on the map.
Mr. BoBO. Is this map over here [indicating], showing the interstate
connections of Al Stone, alias Rrtbin. does that indicate the cities which
3^ou have marked there, some of the cities?
Sergeant Brown. I would say that it indicates a great many of them,
from my observation from the chair here, counsellor.
Mr. BoBO. Is it also a composite of the cities listed in his addi'ess
book?
Sergeant Brown. To a great extent : yes.
Mr. Bobo. Thank you, Sergeant. That is all.
Chairman Kefauver. Sergeant, you do have a big program in De-
troit to stamp out this business, do you not?
Sergeant Brown. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. I would like to bring
out a couple of the highlights of that program that we have in Detroit.
We have a great many active groups, PTA, the church, and fraternal
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 139
organizations. We coopei-ate very closely with them, and they with us.
We go out and make public speeches to these people. We try to keep
in very close contact. We feel that in that way we get a firsthand
viewpoint from the parents of what's going on.
Now, last Tuesday night, Mr. Chairman, I spoke to a PTA group in
Detroit that consisted of 850 parents. They were aware that I had
been subpenaed here by this committee to delve into some of the
problems of the juvenile delinquency question, and the problems of
obscene literature; and they are, I understand, anxiously awaiting a
report of your findings and the corrections that can be made.
Now, we do feel in the State of Michigan that the statute covering
obscenity is a very good, strong statute ; it is 750, section 343. Under
this statute, as I mentioned previously, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
point out again, on the first arrest and conviction it is a misdemeanor.
The second arrest is treated as a high misdemeanor.
Now, on an ordinary misdemeanor it is punishable by 90 days in the
house of correction or $100 fine; the second offense is punishable by a
year in the Detroit House of Correction or a $500 fine ; and the third
offense is treated as a felony, and it is punishable by State prison.
We have had very good success, we have had a great amount of
cooperation from the prosecuting attorney's office, from all the judges
in recorder's court. They are backing us 100 percent on this problem.
We had one judge there, I had 3 cases before him in the last 6
weeks, and that is first offenders.
Chairman Kefauvek. Is that Judge George Edwards ?
Sergeant Brown. No. George Edwards is in the probate court of
juvenile, and a very, very capable judge by the way, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. I know him.
Sergeant Brown. Judge Shimansky has a standing policy there
that, upon conviction, it is automatically 60 days in the house of
correction and a year's probation.
We feel that that law has teeth in it, but we would also like to
see
Chairman Kefauver. When was that law passed?
Sergeant I^rown. That was amended in 19 — it was passed, I believe,
in 1935, and I believe it was amended in 1953, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Has the traffic in Detroit gone down since
you had that law amended and you have been enforcing it more
vigorously ?
Sergeant Brown. We feel that the traffic has greatly decreased.
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us a little more about the splendid inter-
est and activity of the PTA men and women and civic clubs and others
in Detroit, Sergeant Brown.
Sergeant Brown. Well, as I mentioned before, these
Chairman Kefauver. How many people are participating?
Sergeant Brown. Well, it would be hard to say, but it would be
a very, very great number of organizations, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Each in their own neighborhood?
Sergeant Brown. Each in their own neighborhood.
They have a program — before I mention this, in answer to your
question there, Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention that under
this law in the State of Michigan — now, this is getting away from
65263 — 55 10
140 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
pornographj' just a little bit, but I think I would like to touch on it
if it is permissible.
These pocket-sized and these cheesecake books, cheesecake and girlie
magazines, when these books come into the city of Detroit, we have
such cooperation from the two large distributors that they volun-
tarily submit each and every one of these pocket books to the censor
bureau for screening. We have a staff of 13 men. They screen these
books, and if they find obscene passages, or anything of a filthy nature,
w^e immediately submit it to our legtij counsel, the prosecuting attor-
ney of the county. He gives us a legal opinion, and if it is a viola-
tion of the law he sends us a letter, 1 for our files and another 1
for the distributor, that if distribution is made on that book in the
city of Detroit or in the county of Wayne, that prosecution will result.
Now, as a result of this action, we have withheld between four and
five hundred separate titles of these pocket books in the city of Detroit
in the last 5 years. Each one of these titles in the city of Detroit alone
would enjoy a circulation of approximately five to ten thousand.
Chairman Kefauver. Each one of these what?
Sergeant Browx. Each one of these books, each title, each separate
title would enjoy a circulation of from five to ten thousand in the city
of Detroit alone.
Chairman Kefaux^er. But they are not circulated ?
Sergeant Brown, No, sir,
Wlien the prosecuting attorney rules that they are in violation of the
law, the distributor is notified, there is no distribution made in the
city.
Now, we had a test case just a year ago now on one of these pocket
books in recorder's court, and we were sustained. There was a convic-
tion obtained.
Now, it is my understanding at the present time that this case is
being appealed to the Michigan State Supreme Court.
Chairman Kefauver, Sergeant Brown, then in our horror and crime
comic-book hearing, we ran into a situation where some news dealers
were forced to take a whole range of things in order to get the better
magazines; they had to take some horror comics and they had to
take some literature that is not so good, and that it was a pretty
difficult position in which they were placed. They would lose their
license if they did not take all those things, and yet they did not want
to sell them on many occasions.
However, your news dealers are cooperating and just turning them
back ; is that it ?
Sergeant Browx. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. I think you call that tie-in sales?
Sergeant Browx. I believe that would be the term.
Mr. Chujmbris. Sergeant, I believe you, or members of your staff,
went to the city just northeast of Detroit last year and testified before
a grand jury on some of these particular problems to clean up the
Sergeant Browx, The city of Port Huron. Inspector Case was up
there in an advisory capacity.
Mr. Chumbris. I understand they have quite a progrom up there to
clean up these pin-up magazines, like Eye; is that correct?
Sergeant Browx. I can't testify too much about that program; I
am not too familiar with the Port Huron program.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 141
Chairman KEFAin'ER, Sergeant Brown, we thank you very much
for coming here.
Sergeant Brown, Mr. Chairman, one more point. I would like to
tell you at this time that, speaking for myself and the police depart-
ment of the city of Detroit, and the citizens of the city of Detroit, we
would like to see some sort of Federal legislation passed that would put
teeth in tlie law to keep this smut from being distributed by any means,
whether it is in an automobile or carried across the State lines, or by
any means. That's what we are all in hope of.
Chairman Kefauver. That is what all the people who are work-
ing with you on this want done ?
Sergeant Brown. That is what they w^ant done.
Chairman Kefauver. You tell them that we appreciate their recom-
mendation and their activity, and the report that we have from you.
Sergeant Brown. Thank you very much.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bair, we aren't going to get to finish you
before noon, but come around and let us have your testimony. We
are going to adjourn in about 10 minutes.
(Mr. Bair was sworn.)
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT R. BAIR, ASSISTANT UNITED STATES
ATTORNEY FROM THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Bair, you are Mr. Robert R. Bair, B-a-i-r ?
Mr. Bair. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. You are assistant United States attorney from the dis-
trict of Maryland ?
Mr Bair. That is right, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Baltimore, Md. ? How long have you been w^itli the
United States attorney's office in Baltimore?
Mr. Bair. Since September 1954.
Mr. BoBO. And your duties in that office are to prepare and present
cases ?
Mr. Bair. That is correct, sir. Enforcing the laws of the Federal
Government.
Mr. BoBO. Were you the person in the office of the United States
attorney in Baltimore who prepared the case against Herman Solomon
and Saul Norman Daymont ?
Mr. Bair. I am.
Mr. BoBO. Louis Passetti and Ruby Martin Tayfoia ?
Mr. Bair. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. That was a case involving what, Mr. Bair ?
Mr. Bair. That was a case involving the depositing with the Rail-
way Express Agency for shipment in interstate commerce of certain
obscene, lewd, and lascivious photographs.
Chairman Kefau\tr. Mr. Bair, this map here on the left was made,
I believe, from the evidence worked up and brought out by you in
this case?
Mr. Bair. That is correct. That evidence was available to us.
Chairman Kefauver. That is a so-called "Soloday" operation ?
Mr. Bair. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kep^auver. I want to say just as we close, as we recess for
lunch, that I know of the security in this case, and I think this is one
142 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
of the most important decisions enabling enforcement agencies and the
courts to get at this problem that we have ever had in the field of inde-
cent and pornographic literature.
Many prosecutor all over the Nation are awaiting the outcome of the
trial of this case that you have concluded, and it is a very important
case. We want you to take some little time in describing the opera-
tions, just what was involved in the case.
You will continue with your testimony right after our recess for
the lunch period.
The subcommittee will stand in recess until 1 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12 noon, a luncheon recess w^as taken until 1 : 30
p.m.)
AFTERXOOX SESSION
Cliairman Kefau\T3R. We will resume Avith the testimony of Mr.
Bair. All right, Mr. Bobo, proceed.
Mr. Bono, The operations which we were discussing before the
recess was the operation "Soloday" ?
Mr. Bair. That is correct. The address was 3500 Harford Road,
Baltimore, Md.
Mr. BoBO. When did this case originate?
Mr. Bair. The FBI in Baltimore received an anonymous letter
about August 4, 1953, and it was from somebody out in San Francisco
who stated that there were two men who were shipping large ship-
ments of lewd photographs from Baltimore, after having been con-
victed of the same offense out in Los Angeles.
After that letter the FBI investigated tlie case, and conducted sur-
veillance of the premises at Harford Road, and looked into the men
who were going in and out of that building.
Four persons were primarily involved. Plerman Solomon, William
Daymont, Louis D. Passetti, and Ruby Martin Tayfoia.
After a good deal of investigation in which the Railway Express
Agency was cooperating with us, on December 14, 1953, the FBI was
notified that a rather large shipment had been deposited with them,
and agents went down there and initialed the packages contained in
that shipment.
Mr. BoBO. This photograph over here, was that the shipment that
had been deposited Avith Railway Express?
Mr. Bair. That is correct; that is the shipment of the 14th of
December. That shipment consisted of 21 cartons destined for 14
consignees in 7 cities all over the United States.
The shipment was permitted to go through, and agents in various
cities to which these packages were consigned, later picked them up
and returned them to Baltimore.
On the basis of that, evidence warrants were issued, and the four-
named persons were arrested.
Then on January 5, 1954, the Federal grand jury at Baltimore re-
turned an 11-count indictment against Herman Solomon, William
Daymont, Louis D. Passetti, and on Ruby Tayfoia, the indictment was
based on section 14G2 of title 18 of the United States Code; and it
charged them with knowingly depositing with the Railway Express
Agency at Baltimore for shipment in interstate commerce lewd, las-
civious, obscene, and filthy photographs.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 143
This 11-coiiiit indictment concerned only 17 of the cartons which
were addressed to 11 consignees in 6 cities.
The volume was rather large. It consisted of 7,330 sets of photo-
graphs, and there were 12 photographs to each set; thus in all there
were 87,960 photographs.
These had a declared value with the Kail way Express Agency of
almost $2,400. They were being consigned at about 35 cents a set.
That was the cost to the retailer.
The retail value, hov>^ever, was about $10,200, because I had 2
men, 2 of the consignees come to testify at the trial, and they indicated
that they received about $1.50 j^er set.
The testimony at the tiial also revealed that these shipments were
taking place on the average of about twice a week, and that the pro-
duction was in the neighborhood of 3,000 sets per week. If you want
to ap])ly that on an annual basis, that would be 156,000 sets', or 1,872,-
000 photographs a year.
On a weekly basis, assuming that they were able to manufacture
and sell 3,000 sets a week, at 35 cents a set, the shipments out of Soloday
would come to about $1,050 a week. It is difficult to ascertain how
much of that $1,050 was profit to Soloday. They indicated that maybe
22 cents of the 35 cents w^as the cost of production. I am inclined
to think that is a little high, and I would say that closer to about half
of the $1,000 was profit to Soloday.
Turning to the market for these photographs, as you can see from
the map, there were a great number of consignees located all over the
United States — about 45 or 46 in number; but as to the consignees'
involved in the prosecution in Baltimore, there were 11 — and if you
wish me to, I will read those into the record.
Mr. BoBO. If you would, please.
Mr. Bair. Kay's Bookstore, 1374 East Ninth Street, Cleveland, Ohio,
they received 500 sets of photographs.
City Hall News & Novelty, 133 Lyons Street NW., Grand Rapids,
Mich., they received 320 sets.
The Gallery, 347 North Clark Street, Chicago, 111., they received
160 sets.
Frank's Magic, at 1220 K Street, Sacramento, Calif., received 725
sets.
The Satisfactory Distributing Co., 501 M. & M. Building, Houston,
Tex,, received 3 cartons containing 1,700 sets.
Capital News, 1709 East Ninth Street, Cleveland, Ohio, received
1,070 sets.
William Shatsky, 330 South Olive Street, Los Angeles, Calif., re-
ceived 925 sets.
Joyland Novelty Co., 421 South Main Street, Los Angeles, Calif.,
received 300 sets.
Tom Libman, 331 South Main Street, Los Angeles, Calif., received
180 sets.
The G. & U. Newstand, 516 South ^Nlain Street, Los Angeles, Calif.,
received 275 sets.
E. Smith, 536 South Main Street, Los Angeles, Calif., received 1,175
sets.
Mr. BoBO. These you have just read indicate only those in which
you had in the 11 -count indictment that were consigned against
Solodav ?
144 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Bair, Those were the names of the consignees, 11 to be exact^
named in the 11 -count indictment in this particuhir case.
Mr. BoBO. In this particular case there were additional consignees
which you are not at liberty to reveal at the present time ?
Mr. Bair. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. Numbering some 46 altogether?
Mr. Bair. There are about 46 names that we have in our file to
which these photographs or similar ones were consigned.
Mr. BoBO. In addition to these did you investigate and did the trial
bring out the fact that Solomon or Daymont not only did a Railway
Express business but also made frequent trips by automobile?
Mr. Bair. That is true. There is no question but that a great part
of this business was not done by Railway Express. If the figure of
3,000 photographs a week is a correct figure, and that was given ta
us by Louis D. Passetti, a much smaller number than 3,000 per week
was sent by Railway Express. We know about 27,000 sets of photo-
graphs were sent by Railway Express during the 5 months period of
July to November 1953. At the same time at the rate of 3,000 sets a
week, you w^oukl have about 60,000 rather than 27,000 sets produced
during that period.
Mr. BoBO. Did the trial bring out, or did the preliminary investi-
gation, the amount of film used by this operation — raw film?
Mr. Bair. Yes ; it did.
Mr. BoBo. I think I should correct that — processing paper.
Mr. Bair. Records which were obtained by a search warrant indi-
cated that between July 10 and November 23, 1953, Soloday pur-
chased over $2,000 of photographic paper from Rochester, N. Y., and
over $7,600 worth of photogi'aphic paper from a company in New
York City.
Mr. BoBO. Did any of the pictures confiscated portray any minors
in these lewd photographs?
Mr. Bair. No ; they did not.
Mr. BoBo. "^^Hien this material was shipped out was it deposited
with the Railway- Express Co., or did they go by Soloday and pick
up the material?
Mr. Bair. As regards this particular shipment, I believe it wa&
brought to the Railway Express Agency by automobile.
Mr. BoBO. You mentioned the names of Herman Solomon and
William Daymont. Was this a partnership operation ?
Mr. Bair. I might give you some background information about
those two, as well as Avhat we know about Passetti and Tayfoia.
Of those four people, Herman Solomon and William Daymont were
primarily responsible for the business and the success of Soloday,
which is obviously a combination of the two names, Solomon and
Daymont.
Solomon was the photographer. He had an apartment in New
York City at 224 West 49th Street, where he also had a studio. There
he took photographs of various models.
He then delivered the negatives to William Daymont at 35 Harford
Road, in Baltimore, where they were developed, and where the photo-
graphs were printed from the negatives.
Louis D. Passetti was employed by Solomon at about $65 a week to
help in packaging the photographs.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 145
Kuby Martin Tayfoia assisted William Daymont in Baltimore in
the printing of the photographs. Because of her small connection
with the matter, the indictment against her was dismissed, and only
the three men were tried.
Wliat we know about Solomon and Daymont, we know primarily
from the mouths of Passetti and Tayfoia. Mr. Passetti met Solomon
in San Francisco in 1949, and was employed by him that year to
package photographs. While he was in the hospital out there he was
advised that the police had raided the place of business in San Fran-
cisco, and that was the last time he saw Solomon until September
1953, when he again began working for Soloday.
Miss Tayfoia was about IT years of age when she first met Solomon
and Daymont in Hollywood, Calif., in about January of 1952. She
went to work for them there as a model, and after a month or two of
posing she worked for them as a printer of photographs.
Just a few months prior to that, in October of 1951, both Solomon
and Daymont were arrested by the Los Angeles Police Department
on a charge of lewd photographs, and Solomon received in all 60
days suspended sentence, and a total of $200 in fines.
Daymont at that time received 1 year's probation, and a total of
$150 in fines.
In May of 1952, while within the probationary period of Daymont,
the business of "Soloday" moved from Santa Monica, Calif., to the
Harford Eoad address. We know at that time, from September of
1952 until they were arrested in December 1953, they operated that
business in Baltimore.
Solomon would go to New York about 4 days a week. He would
then drive to Baltimore and remain in Baltimore about 3 days a
week, conducting this business.
Daymont, I believe, resided solely in Baltimore.
As to the question of obtaining models, they would obtain them
from night clubs and burlesque houses, et cetera. They would offer
them something like $10 for a couple of hours' work in posing; and
as I say, a good bit of that was done in a photographic studio in
New York by Solomon.
However, a number of their consignees over the country, one in
Cleveland in particular — we know they offered to get them models,
and Daymont and Solomon would go out to these various places and
photograph other models in studios in these various cities.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know how those negatives would be forwarded
into Baltimore?
Mr. Bair. I have no Avay of knowing that ; no sir.
Mr. BoBO. Go right ahead.
Mr. Bair. Going to the trial which took place in Baltimore, Solo-
mon, Daymont, and Passetti were tried on this 11-count indictment
on April 25, 1955, before Judge W. Calvin Chestnut. The jury was an
all-male jury. However, they returned a verdict of guilty; and
Solomon was sentenced to 90 days in jail, and $1,000 fine.
Daymont was sentenced to 90 days in jail, and $1,000 fine.
Passetti was fined $500.
The issue of the depositing for interstate shipment was stipulated
out of the case by counsel, so that the only issue at that trial was the
issue of obscenity.
146 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
That brings me to the type of photographs involved in this case.
It was not pornographic ,per se. It was more or less borderline
photographs, borderlining between the art type of photograph, or the
stripping nude type of photograph. There were three types in all.
They were in sets of 12 photographs each. The girls were posed
in varying stages of undress in one type. You might call it a strip-
ping nude, but it was not strictly that inasmuch as there was not a
complete nude in the whole group. They were dressed very cleverly
by using long stockings and garters and black lingerie, black gloves,
and black boots, and so forth. I don't think you could strictly call
it an artistic stripping nude.
Mr. BoBO. Most of these portrayed long black leather gloves, and
long black boots and high heels ?
Mr. Bair. Yes; I would describe it as that. I wish to repeat that
it was not pornographic. There were no suggestive poses involved.
There was another type which we might refer to as a wdiip or a
flagellation type, in which a woman would have a fairly serious, stern
look on her face, and she would be holding a whip.
There was a third type which we might refer to as a bondage picture
in which the woman was jiosed with her hands and feet tied with
ropes, and in many cases lying on a bed, with a very frightened look
on her face.
The problem before me was to see Avhether these pictures fitted the
tests of obscenity which had been laid down in prior Federal court
decisions; and the tests that we had to go by were whether these
photographs were calculated to corrupt the morals of those into
whose hands they might fall, by exciting lewd thoughts or suggesting
sensual desires.
There were two appraches to the problem. One you might call a
negative approach, and the other a positive approach.
As a negative approach, I had an expert from the Museum of Art
come in to testify that they had little, if any, artistic merit to them ;
that they did not constitute art, in that any little artistic merit which
they had was completely outweighed by emphasis on sex.
There were a number of asi)ects to the positive approach to the
problem. One was, of course, the huge volume, the huge market for
these photographs. The second was their sole purpose, which was
a pandering to the lascivious curiosity in men — just a strict commer-
cialization of sex, and sex alone. That was emphatically put across
to the jnry.
The third approach was to show the clever and skillful method to
commercialize this kind of thing. They didn't just submit one photo-
graph. They submitted 12 in a series; and I think you can safely
say that the cumulative effect of the 12 photograplis was greater than
the sum of just looking at 12 photograplis separately.
Another very clever method used by them is the use of partial
clothing. There was not a complete nude in all the 87,000 photo-
graphs. There was always just a little bit of clothing in the form
of garters or long stockings, or black lingerie. Havelock Ellis and
many others are well agreed that actually nudity is more chaste than
partial clothing, and partial clothing is a much easier way — the use
of partial clothing is a much easier way to incite sensuality in man
than a complete nude.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 147
That repi'eseiited a very clever observation upon the part of these
men, and they ntihzed it extensively.
Another method was the use of fetishes. The use of long black
gloves and long boots, or high heeled shoes, the use of stockings and
garters, the use of whips and ropes.
Necessarily these things might not be pi'ima facie evidence to a
jury; and so I had to bring in a psychiatrist to explain some of the
symbols. I brought in Dr. Jacob Harry Conn, of Utah Place, in
Baltimore, and he testihed tliat pictures such as these represented a
very skillful invitation and solicitation to persons who are in need
of a substitute for a sexual experience.
From the huge market in these photographs I think we can infer
that there are quite a few people in such a need. It represents the
need of people who through weakness of character, through age, and
lack of maturity, or through social and moral inhibitions are unable
to find a normal outlet for the sexual urges.
In some cases the need is a pathological need, and it is represented
by perverts, by impotents, borderline homosexuals. The wdiipping
pictures and the flagellations, the bondage pictures, they are all di-
rected to that type of person.
At the same time Dr. Conn pointed out an analogy between the
impotent type of person who had this need and the adolescent who
was just approaching the awakening of that type of life when he
was awakening to sexual needs. It was clear to him that such a
photograph would represent an outlet for a vicarious sexual experi-
ence.
Mr. BoBO. In othei- words, actually what it would do, if it was a
juvenile and an innnature person, it is liable to cause him to take up
this partciular fetish — whipping, bondage, as an outlet for sex?
Mr. Bair. That is what Dr. Conn testified to.
Mr. BoBo. Mr. Bair, what was the end result of the case?
Mr. Bair. As I said, the only issue was that of obscenity, and the
jury brought back a verdict of guilt ; and the three men were sentenced
as I have stated previously.
Mr. BoBo. Would a clearer definition in the statute 1461, 1462, 1463,
1464 of what constitutes pornographic literature, have assisted in this
case in obtaining a stronger conviction for these individuals ?
Mr. Bair. I don't think so. I would hesitate to legislate further
as to the definition of obscenity.
I believe the courts over a long period of time have established
certain standards which I might say are flexible in that the present
test is the standard of the community here now; and as you. know,
these standards do change.
If you look back to the Greco-Koman era, or the Victorian era, these
standards do change.
The present test allows you to look at the standards of the com-
munity here and now, and to decide whether this material is calculated
to corrupt the morals by exciting lewd thoughts and sensual desires ;
and I think the test at the present time is adequate. To legislate fur-
ther on it may restrict courts too much in the future.
Mr. BoBO. Prosecution and investigation of this case required ap-
proximately what — 2 years ?
Mr. Bair. The investigation required almost 5 months.
Mr. BoBO. How long was it in the courts ?
148 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Bair. Well, the trial lasted a little over a day.
Chairman Kefauver. ]Mr. Martin, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Martin. Mr. Bair, I believe you told us the cost to Solomon was
22 cents. I believe 22 cents was the price spread between the cost anc
what he was selling for. Wasn't the cost 13 cents ?
Mr. Bair. Well, at the trial they maintained that the cost was 2S
■cents. However, there is evidence in their books and records that th(
cost was 13 cents. It is a little hard to ascertain exactly what it cost.
I would estimate they made about one-half of the 35 cents as profit.
Chairman Kefauver. When was the final judgment rendered in this
case ?
Mr. Bair. On April 26, 1955.
Chairman Kefau^^er. I think there have been some other indict
ments brought. A good many cases were waiting on the outcome o1
this one ?
Mr. Bair. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. All of these consignees"
are subject to prosecution under 1462, and a great many of the districts
had been awaiting the outcome of this case prior to authorization of
prosecution.
Chairman Kefauver. I was interested in what happened to this girl,
Kuby Tayf oia. She was in California ?
Mr. Bair. That is where she first met Mr. Solomon, out in Holly-
wood.
Chairman Kefauver. At that time she was just a teen-ager ?
Mr. Bair. Just 17 years old.
Chairman Kefauver. And they brought her back to Baltimore in
tne business there ?
Mr. Bair. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. What did these fellows do before they got into
this business — do you know ?
Mr. Bair. We have no way of knowing that. Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. Doesn't Solomon have some record ?
Mr. Bair. In 1951 he was convicted in Los Angeles on the same type
of charge. At that time he received 60 days suspended sentence and
$200 fine. We know that he was also printing these photographs as
early as 1919, but what he was doing prior to that we don't know.
Chairman Kefauver. After leaving Los Angeles he came to Balti-
more ?
Mr. Bair. Yes; he came to Baltimore in May of 1952.
Chairman Kefau\ter. Didn't some of the girls who posed as models
make some claims about not knowing what they were doing?
Mr. Bair. Well, there is a little indication in the investigation that
Avhile they were posing for supposedly art pictures, there were two
cameras focused on them — one that they didn't know about.
Chairman Kefau\'er. And they claim they didn't sign the release
for some of the pictures, but they were used notwithstanding, or they
didn't know what they were signing when they signed the release ?
Mr. Bair. I do not know, sir.
Chairman Kefauv'er. Thank you very much, Mr. Bair.
We appreciate the hard work that you have put in on this case, and
the fact that you have stayed with it so long, and finally won your
case.
As I said before, I think it had a very salutory effect throughout
the Nation.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 149
We will have about a 3-minute recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Rubin.
(Abraham Rubin was sworn.)
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM RUBIN, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
Mr. BoBo. You have counsel here with you ?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Will you identify yourself?
Mr. Weiss. Daniel S. Weiss, 15 East 40th Street.
Mr. BoBO. Will you state your full name and present address ?
Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin, 1639 41st Street, Brooklyn.
Chairman Kefauver. I didn't understand that.
Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin.
Mr. BoBO. Have you also at other times been known by a different
name ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provision of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute now. Do you plead immunity
under the fifth amendment?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. As we go along I will pass on whether the
witness should be ordered to answer the question. I will have to order
vou to answer that question, Mr. Rubin. If you refuse to answer,
just sav, "I refuse to answer."
Mr. IRubin. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Kefauvtsr. But under the rules and for the record, ques-
tions are asked, and if you refuse to answer under the fifth amend-
ment, if I think it is a proper question I will have to ask you to answer.
You either answer or refuse to answer.
Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Have you furnished this subcommittee all the available
records which were requested in the subpcna issued to you ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity of the provision
of tlie fiftli amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer, Mr.
Rubin.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under tlie immunity provision of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Bobo. In 1950 you had a reported income of $7,796.82; in
1951, $8,635.35 ; in 1952," $8,688.76 ; in 1953, $8,099.94 ; in 1954, $7,919.44.
On what basis did you arrive at these figures without producing
records to show your income for those years ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provision of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Weiss, to save time and with full under-
standing, if in answer to a question if he wishes to plead the fifth
150 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
amendment, it will be nnderstood and we let the record make that
clear, that if he says "I refuse to answer," we will understand that
that is on the basis of the immunity provisions of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Weiss. That will save time.
Chairman Kefattver. Shall we also let the record show that I have
ordered him to answer after he says "I refuse," unless it is some ques-
tion that I feel should not be asked him, in which event I will so desig-
nate, so that will save a lot of time.
Mr. Weiss. I agree with you.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. Let me ask this question. Would
the witness give us any statement, or does counsel wish to give us any
statement just what offense, or what law, the prosecution of which
the witness may be afraid that he would be subject to in the event he
answered ?
Mr. Weiss. His answer will be the same, Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. His answer will be the same ?
Mr. Weiss. Yes.
Mr. Martin. Is it a State or Federal offense?
Mr. Weiss. His answ-er will be the same.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, ask such pertinent questions as
you wish to bring out.
Mr. BoBO. What kind of business are you engaged in, Mr. Eubin?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. I cannot understand you.
Chairman Kefaus^er. He said he refused to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Are you the same Abraham Rubin that was arrested in
Detroit, Mich., in 1953 ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Is that a photograph that was taken of you at that time?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefau^^r. Let the photograph be filed as an exhibit.
Mr. BoBO. Were the charges against you at that time possession of
obscene literature ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Hand him his w^hole record here. There is no
use going over each one. This is the record that has been introduced
in evidence as an exhibit here.
The question is: Is the photograpli on top of it, and is this your
record of arrests, convictions, or acquittal ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Let it be filed.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Rubin, isn't is true you are considered one of the
major suppliers of pornography in the United States?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bono. In the business in wliich you are engaged in, in how many
States do you operate ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Let this chart be inserted here.
Mr. BoBO. In the business in which you are engaged in, have you
ever operated in the State of New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana,
Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, and New Jersey?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any contacts with any persons in any
of those States ?
ujco ^!^
o
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u
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o
Li. Zo.
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JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 151
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever been arrested before ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. How long have you been associated either directly or
indirectly with Eddie Mishkin in the pornography traffic?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Does he know Mr. Miskin ?
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Mishkin ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Where were you born ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. "What is your citizenship, Mr. Rubin ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. How many children do you have ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. What is your present home address ?
Mr. Rubin. I already gave it to you.
Mr. Bobo. A\liat is your present telephone number ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Is your refusal to answer upon fear of bodily
harm or reprisal ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Do you know Frank Lano, of Chicago, 111. ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done business with Mr. Lano in Chicago,
111., or in New York City?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Rubin, is it true that your business in pornography
amounts to approximately $100,000 a year?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. How long have you known Mr. Lou Shomer?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done business with Mr. Shomer?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. How long have you been doing business with Mr. Arthur
Herman Sobel ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. The proper question would be does he laiow
Mr. Sobel, and does he do any business with him.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Sobel ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you knov7 Mr. Rotto ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Have you ever done any business with him ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. Do you know INIr. Stanley Jablonski ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Have you ever done any business with Mr. Jablonski?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Do you know Mr. Morris Lowenstein?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Have you ever done any business with him in Flint,
Mich.?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
152
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Saxton, of Pittsburgh, Pa. ?
Mr. KuBiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. How long have you known Mr. Saxton?
Mr. EuBiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Isn't it true that you have made numerous large deliv-
eries of pornographic material to the Bizon Co., in Detroit, Mich.?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr BoBO. Isn't it true that you were the original printer and
distributor for the "Fuller Brush Man" series of obscene comics?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. For how many years did you publish these comics <
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Mr Bobo. Can you explain how it is that your name and telephone
number has been found in the address books of large dealers arrested
over the country— dealers of pornography throughout the United
States?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. ,. -rr ^ mo
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. E. Red Florence of Houston, iex.«
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. . -, T»r -r^i o
Mr. Bobo. How long have you done business with Mr. I lorence'
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. „ ,-cr i • . -r^ ^ o
Mr. Bobo. Do you know Mr. George Fodor, of Washington, D.L.i
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer. . i -.^r -r- j o
Mr. BoBO. For how long have you done business with Mr. J^ odor i
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman KErAU\T2R. The witness refuses to answer.
Mr Rubin, in the scant records which you gave to the subcommittee,
is a copy of a statement of expenses and other things prepared by
Mr. Marvin R. Fullmer.
My question is : Will you identify this, or are you willing to identity
it?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefau\'er. We will let the record be put m evidence as
o-oing with the questions which you refuse to answer.
(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 13," and is as follows :)
Review of Income Tax and Bank Statements, 1950 Through 1954
(By Marvin R. Fullmer)
Name : Abe Rubin, alias Al Stone.
Occupation: Wholesale trade, jewelry salesman.
Income tax
commission merchant.
1950
1951
1952
1953
1954
Earnings
$9, 796, 82
8, 635. 35
8, 688. 76
8, 099. 94
7, 919. 44
Tax paid
$1,059.80
1,473.08
1,613.50
1,483.14
1, 332. 06
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 153
Business figures
Total receipts
Cost of mdse
1951 .
$13, 663. 00
16, 429. 25
16,371.00
16, 820. 00
.$3, 996
5,737
6 348
3952
1953 - -
1954
6 145
How are these figures derived?
Receipts ?
Bill of sale, etc.?
Wliat is your basis of these figures?
Savings accounts
Greater New York Savings Bank : Present balance, $8,314.40. Opened Decem-
ber 7, 1945, Mary Gordon, in trust for Abraham Rubin. Opening deposit, $500.
Bay Ridge Savings Bank : Present balance, $5,362.37. Opened May 23, 1950,
Mary G. Rubin or Abraham Rubin. Opening deposit, $350.
Checking account
The Public National Bank and Trust Co. of New York. Opened account Octo-
ber 29, 1951, $1,500 deposit.
Total deposits
1951 $6, 748
1952 9, 012
1953 5, 275
1954 _ 6, 175
195Jf expenditures taken from canceled checks
Auto, 5 months at $75 $375
Auto, 5 months at $106 530
12 house payments at $50 600
Income tax 1, 500
Martin Harris (insurance) SOO
Standard Oil (car expenses) 250
Net savings, deposits 4,072
City tax, etc ^175
Telephone ^ 75
Consolidated Edison ^ 120
Total 8, 494
1 Approximate,
Reported income, $7,919. •
July 28, 1954, $3,102.32 deposit by check (payor unknown) in savings account,
Bay Ridge Savings Bank.
Safe-deposit box : The Public National Bank and Trust Companv of New York,
vault. No. 332. In whose name?
Any other boxes, etc.?
Chairman IvEFAtn^ER. One part of it is that you have a safety-
deposit box, No. 332, at the Public National Bank and Trust Co. of
New York. Is that in your name, or not ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well, Mr. Rubin. Mr. Rubin, I will
have to ask you to remain under continuing subpena in the event we
want to call you back. In that event, you or Mr. Weiss will be
notified.
I believe that is all for the time being.
Call the next witness, gentlemen.
Mr. BoBo. Mr. Andy Bruckner.
Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Bruckner here ?
254 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(There was no response.)
Mr. BoBO. Mr. George Fodor.
TESTIMONY OP GEOEGE FODOR, ST. PETERSBURG, ELA.
(George Fodor was sworn.)
Chairman Ivefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. Proceed.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Fodor, will you give us your full name and address?
Mr. FoDOR. George Fodor, 3710 39th Street North, St. Petersburg.
Mr. BoBO. Do you also maintain a residence in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. FoDOR. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you lived in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Fodor. Yes ; I did.
Mr. BoBO. When did you leave that city ?
Mr. Fodor. Three and a half months ago.
Mr. BoBO. How are you employed, Mr. Fodor?
Mr. FoDOR. What?
Mr. BoBO. How are you employed, what is your job?
Mr. FoDOR. Working in a little store.
Mr. BoBO. Where were you born, Mr. Fodor?
Mr. FoDOR. Warshaw, Kumania.
Mr. BoBO. Are you presently a United States citizen ?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Wlien you lived in Washington, D. C, how were you
employed, Mr. Fodor ?
Mr. Fodor. In the beginning or the end, or when ?
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Fodor, I cannot quite hear you. You are
a big man ; speak up. , -, , t,
Mr. FoDOR. I will try, sir. Wlien I started working, I worked at the
J. Warehouse in Washington, D. C.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Fodor, have ever dealt in pornographic material?
Mr. Fodor. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Bobo. For how long a period did you sell pornography ?
Mr. Fodor. Around 5 or 6 months.
Mr, BoBO. And where was this sold ?
]\Ir. Fodor. In Washington, D. C.
Chairman Kefauver. When was this, Mr. Fodor; when were you m
the business in Washington ?
Mr. FoDOR. I try to hgure it out. I am very weak with the numbers
memory. I guess in 3 years ago, or 21/2 years ago.
Mr. BoBO. Three years ago?
Mr. Fodor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bobo. What were the types of pornographic material handled
by you, Mr. Fodor?
Mr. Fodor. I had films, comic books, and pictures.
Mr. BoBO. And from whom did you receive this pornogi^aphic
IllcltGl^lcll .
Mr. FoDOR. Most of it I received from Mr. Dorfman.
Chairman Kefauver. I couldn't understand that.
Mr. Fodor. Most of it received from Mr. Dorfman, from Baltimore.
Mr. Bobo. D-o-r-f-m-a-n?
Mr. Fodor. Yes.
Mr. Bobo. Where did Mr. Dorfman live?
Mr. FoDOR. In Baltimore some place. I don't know the address.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 155
Chairman Kefauver. Wliat is his first name ?
Mr. FoDOR. Ike.
Chairman Kefauver. Ike Dorfman?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Isadore Dorfman, is it not?
Mr. Fodor. I don't know the name. Only I know Ike.
Mr. BoBO. Is Mr. Dorfman the only contact you had for porno-
graphic material?
Mr. Fodor. No, sir. I had from Jacksonville, too.
Mr. BoBO. You got it from whom ?
Mr. FoDOR. Jacksonville.
Mr. BoBO. Jacksonville, Fla. ?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. From whom did you buy it there, Stanley Jablonski?
Mr. FoDOR. I don't know the name, sir.
Mr. BoBO. How would you buy it from the person in Jackson-
ville, Fla.?
Mr. FoDOR. They brought to me. I brought in only once.
INIr. BoBO. They brought it to you?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. In Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. FoDOR. Right, sir.
Mr. BoBO. How was the delivery made ?
Mr. Fodor. He brought me with his car.
Mr. BoBO. He brought you his card?
Mr. FoDOR. His car, his car.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Edward Mishkin, M-i-s-h-k-i-n ?
Mr. FoDOR. I don't recognize his name, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know anyone that goes by the name of Eddie,
E-d-d-i-e, of New York City?
Mr. FoDOR. No ; if I know. If I see, maybe I know. But I don't
know.
Mr. BoBO. Did you know Mr. Al Stone, or Mr. Abraham Rubin, of
New York City?
Mr. FoDOR. I saw just now here. That's all I know.
Mr. BoBO. That is the first time you have ever seen him ?
Mr. Fodor. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Have you seen Mr. Eddie Mishkin in the room today?
Mr. Fodor. Who?
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Eddie Mishkin.
(Mr. Fodor shakes head in negative.)
Mr. Bono. Did you say you could recognize him if you saw him?
Mr. Fodor. 1 will try (looking through courtroom).
]Mr. Martin. Is Mr. Mishkin in the room?
Mr. Weiss. I am his attorney. He is not coming up.
Mr. Martin. He is supposed to be in the courtroom here.
Mr. Weiss. He is here.
Chairman Kefauver. Sit down, Mr. Fodor.
Mr. BoBO. Who were your customers for pornographic material,
Mr. Fodor?
Mr. FoDOR. I had Mr. Chucoski.
Mr. BoBO. Is he the only person to whoni you ever sold ?
65263—55—11
J 56 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. FoDOR. No. I will tell you. Mr. Chucoski, Mr. King, Mr.
Bannister. -r^ ,-, o
Mr. BoBO. Wliere did they live, in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes; all Washington, D. C. Mr. Dockett.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever make any trips to New York to purchase
pornographic material ?
Mr. FoDOR. No.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know a Mr. Lou Shomer, S-h-o-m-e-r ?
Mr. FoDOR. If I see him, maybe I know him.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever buy any materials from this man ?
Mr. FoDOR. I don't think so'l did. I don't remember.
Mr. BoBO. Where would you make your purchases from Mr. Ike
Dorfman, of Baltimore, Md. ?
Mr. FoDOR. I did ; sometime he brought to me in Washington, D. C.
Mr. BoBO. What was the price that you paid for the materials you
bought from him.
Mr. FoDOR. Six cents I paid for the comic book.
Mr. BoBO. Six cents you paid for the comic book ?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir
Mr. BoBO. How^ much did you sell them for ?
Mr. FoDOR. Ten cents.
Mr. BoBO. Did you deal in any other type of materials ?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes; films.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever know where the films came from which
you handled?
Mr. FoDOR. No ; I don't.
Mr. BoBO. You never manufactured or made any films yourself?
Mr. FoDOR. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you rent a fihn to Mr. Philip Stone of Washington,
D.C.
Mr. FoDOR. Who?
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Phil Stone, of Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. FoDOR. I don't think so I ever heard that name. I heard men-
tion this morning, I never give it up. I never sold, I never sold this
Mr. Stone.
Mr. BoBO. Was the film that was confiscated at the Don Pallini
Dance Studio in Washington, D. C.
Mr. FoDOR. What?
Mr. BoBO. Was the film that was confiscated taken by Inspector
Blick of Washington from the Don Pallini Dance Studio your film ?
Mr. FoDOR. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. You had not operated that film ?
Mr. FoDOR. I have no idea where is this dance studio, and I have no
i^ea wliat was there, and I have no idea who is this man.
Mr. BoBO. Did you have a route serving approximately 300 cus-
tomers for pornographic material ?
Mr. FoDOR. No, sir. Four.
Mr. BoBO. Four customers?
Mr. FoDOR. That's right.
Mr. BoBO. What other type of business were you engaged in while
you were selling pornography ?
Mr. FoDOR. No other venture. I had three
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 157
Mr. BoBO. Did you sell school supplies to schools and drugstores ?
Mr. FoDOR. That's right. That is where I have 300 customers where
I sold this ; that's right.
Chairman Kefauver. You had 300 customers for your school sup-
plies ?
Mr. FoDOR. That's right, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Who were your four customers for pornog-
raphy ?
Mr. FoDOR. Four.
Chairman Kefauver. Who were they ?
Mr. FoDOR. I just told you. Mr. Dockett, Mr. King, Mr. Chucoski,
and Mr. Bannister.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know their addresses ?
Mr. FoDOR. I did know. At that time I told to the inspector, and
also to the FBI.
Mr. BoBO. Did you not have $30,000 worth of school supplies m your
basement at the time of your arrest ?
Mr. FoDOR. No, sir.
Mr. BoBo. What was the value you placed upon your stock?
Mr. FoDOR. Six or seven thousand.
Mr. BoBO. Six or seven — what ?
Mr. FoDOR. Thousand.
Mr. BoBo. Six or seven thousand dollars ?
Mr. FoDOR. Between six and seven ; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you remember just when you were in
business, Mr. Fodor ?
Mr. Fodor. I guess three, three and a half years ago.
Chairman Kefauver. Wliat are you doing in Jacksonville now ?
Mr. Fodor. I never was in Jacksonville, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. I mean in St. Petersburg?
Mr. Fodor. I try to do the same business what 1 had in Washmgton,
D, c. — school supplies and notions and toys.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Bobo?
Mr. BoBO. Did you have a total sales of $50,613 in 1954 ?
Mr. Fodor. In this paper, the income tax ; yes.
Mr. Bono. Was all that derived from your business ?
Mr. FoDOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. School supply salesman ?
Mr. FoDOR. Correct.
Mr. BoBo. Of your $50,000 business in 1954, how much tax did you
pay to the Government ?
Mr. FoDOR. I don't remember. You have the paper there.
Mr. BoBO. How much of this $50,613 represented pornographic
literature?
Mr. Fodor. Nothing.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Fodor, I believe those are all the ques-
tions we have. Stay in the court room for a while this afternoon?
Mr. Fodor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Eddie Mishkin.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, I don't think you have been
sworn, have you?
Mr. Mishkin. No, sir.
158 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
TESTIMONY OF EDDIE MISHKIN, YONKERS, N. Y.
(Eddie Mishkin was sworn.) ,.-,,•.. n a
Chairman Kefauver. Let us get Mr. Mishkm s full name and
fi rlcli*BSS
Mr BoBo. Will you give us your full name and address?
Mr. Mishkin. Edward Mishkin, 53 Algonquin Road, Yonkers, N. Y.
Chairman KEFAU^^cR. I didn't understand the road.
Mr. MisHKiK. Algonquin Road.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. ^^^at are your businesses, Mr. Mishkm ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions ot
Ihe fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. The chairman directs you to answer.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. . , , .
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Weiss, can we have an agreement that
in his refusal to answer, when he says "I refuse to answer, that it
will be understood that it is under the immunity provision of the
fifth amendment?
Mr. Weiss. Certainly. . . -, ^
Chairman Kefauver. And that after having refused to answer,
that he is then directed to answer by the chairman.
ATr AVeiss Yes sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed to the pertinent questions, Mr Bobo.
Mr BoBo ISIr Mishkin, is it not true that you own the Times Square
Book" Bazaar, the Little Book Exchange, and the Kiiio;sley Book
Store, located in the Times Square area of New York City?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer. • i • j j?
Mr. Bobo. Is it not true that part of your income is derived from
the sales of pornographic material ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that your business amounts to approxi-
mately $1,500,000 a year?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you not formerly operate the Harmony Book Store
of New York City?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Wasn't the Harmony Book Store, or is it not true that the
Harmony Book Store was raided by the northern district attorney
and over $50,000 of pornographic material seized?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. From whom did you receive the material that was con-
fiscated in this rade?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Confiscated in this raid were 2,600 volumes of lights ot
Horrow. From whom did you receive these books ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman IvEFAmT.R. Mr. Mishkin, what business are you in?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you in any ligitimate business?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefau\^r. Where were you born ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 159
Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that you employed one Eugene Maletta to
print copies of Nights of Horrow for you ?
Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you furnish the plates to Eugene Maletta ?
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you furnish the money to Mr. Maletta to set up his
printing shop?
Mr. MiSHKix. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. How long have you done business with Mr. Eugene
Maletta ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever give Mr. Maletta a check in payment for the
work he did for you?
Mr. MiSHKTN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you pay him in cash ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. What is the value in dollars of the pornographic material
you have imported from foreign sources ?
Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you import any pornographic material from foreign
sources ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever made any buys from sources in Europe ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bono. How much obscene material have you sold to Joe Carroll
and Mr. Pellegrino, of New York City, during the past 2 years ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. What types of material did you sell ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever stolen any material from other pornog-
raphy dealers, copied what you wanted from it, and reproduced it for
your own use ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any police record ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. Do you have a man working for you by the name of Harry
Revo?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Is this same Harry Revo that was arrested in Birming-
ham, Ala., with a load of pornographic material ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you not furnish Mr. Harry Revo and Johnny Melvin
with this load of pornographic material ?
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Arthur Herman Sobel ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. How much ])ornographic material have you sold Mr.
Sobel during the past 5 years ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Saxton, of Philadelphia?
Mr. MiSHKiN. 1 refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. And Pittsburgh, Pa. ?
How much business have you done with Mr. Saxton?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
IQQ JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Al Stone, alias Abraham Kubin?
Mr. MiSHKiN. i refuse to answer. ,^0. v at
Mr. BoBO. For how long have you known Mr. btone, alias Mr.
Kubin?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. ^ • i . at
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever sold any pornographic material to Mr.
Stone, alias Kubin ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Morris GiUman ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business ot any type witli Mr.
Gillman?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever sold any pornographic material on credit ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Shomer, S-h-o-m-e-r i
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer. ,^01 0
I^Ir. BoBO. Have you ever dealt with or lent money to Mr. bhomer?
Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer. ^
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any interest in the Times bquare Book
Bazaar ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. In the Little Book Exchange?
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. In the Kingsley Book Store?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any interest in any other business m New
York City?
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Any other questions, Mr. Bobo ?
■ We are not getting anywhere here. How old are you, Mr. Mishkm ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer.
Chairman KEFAU^^2R. Are you married— do you have a family ?
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, I will direct that you remain
under subpena subject to the further call by this committee upon
notification of you or your attorney, Mr. Weiss.
That is all now.
Who is our next witness, Mr. Bobo ?
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Arthur Herman Sobel.
Cliairman Kefau^^r. Mr. Bohrar, you gave your address and what
not yesterday, did you not?
Mr. BoHRAR. I did.
Chairman Kefauver. That is B-o-h-r-e-r?
Mr. BoHRAR. B-o-h-r-a-r.
Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show that Mr. Bohrar is ac-
companying Mr. Sobel and is his attorney.
Does Mr. Sobel object to having the television cameras on?
Mr. Bohrar. He does.
Chairman Kefauver. Gentlemen, I will ask your cooperation.
This is Mr. Arthur Herman Sobel. Is that correct, Mr. Bobo?
Mr. BoBo. That is correct.
Chairman Kefau^ter. I have not sworn you, have I ?
Mr. Bohrar. Not yet. Mr. Sobel doesn't hear very well.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 161
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Sobel, you have not been sworn, have
you?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR HERMAN SOBEL, NEW YORK, N. Y.
(Arthur Herman Sobel was sworn.)
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, ask him in a loud voice so he can
hear.
Mr. BoBO. Your name is Arthur Herman Sobel ?
Mr. Sobel. Eight.
Mr. BoBo. Where do you live, Mr. Sobel ?
Mr. Sobel. 319 West 48th Street, Manhattan.
Mr. BoBO. That is Manhattan, New York?
Mr. Sobel. That's right.
Mr. BoBO. How^ old are you ?
Mr. Sobel. Sixty-four.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Sobel, have you ever been arrested before ?
(Mr. Sobel confers with Mr. Bohrar.)
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever been arrested, Mr. Sobel ?
Mr. Sobel. I refuse to answer on the ground of incrimination, under
section, fifth amendment.
Mr. BoBO. Were you arrested May 8
Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute. Mr. Bohrar, is Mr. Sobel
going to answ^er any questions ?
Mr. Bohrar. I don't think he will. In fact, I don't believe he will.
Chairman Kefauver. But you don't know for sure ?
Mr. Bohrar. I am certain.
Chairman Kefauver. Can we, then, Mr. Bohrar, have an under-
standing that when he says "I refuse to answer," that we will under-
stand he is refusing to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Bohrar. He is invoking the fifth amendment.
Chairman Kefauver. And that as to" each question he will be
specifically directed to answer by the chairman of the committee.
Mr. Bohrar. I understand.
Chairman Kefau\^er. Without formally directing him to answer.
Mr. Bohrar. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. Bobo. Were you arrested May 8, 1954, at Lincoln, K-. I.
Mr. Sobel. I refuse to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Bohrar. Just say you refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that the car you were driving contained
a large amount of obscene literature when you were arrested at Lin-
coln, R. I. ?
Chairman Kefauver. You refuse to answer ?
Mr. Sobel. Just a moment, your Honor. I would like to go into
every detail about this particular case.
When I was arrested for speeding, they stopped me and they broke,
the police broke into the car, for the reason because I had no proper
license. They were registered under a name, Harold Kantor, to
whom this car belonged.
They broke the lock of the car. They asked me for the keys of
the trunk, a little suitcase about 2 by lYo, just about the size of the
suitcase. They asked me whether I have the keys to the suitcase. I
3^52 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
told them I have not. They searched me all over, even internally, to
look for the keys, but they could not find the key. I don't know
what's in there. It does not belong to me.
They broke the suitcase open. In the suitcase they found various
literature, probably 10 books, or 10 rolls, or some pictures.
All in all, after I spoke to Mr. Kantor when he gave me the car
to deliver some merchandise to a store out in Worcester, he told me
the whole thing amounts to about $200, the entire thing, and that was
actually what to my knowledge it would be worth, 10 books, 10 rolls,
and a few other little things in it.
They arrested me. First they kept me overnight and they put
me under $1,500 bail the first time, and about an hour later they
raised my bail and put in another charge for transportation.
I got an attorney recommended from the barracks, and this man
told^'me that he was going to charge me $100, and he got me a
bondsman. I paid him the hundred.
Finally he told me he wants $2,000 to try the case. I thought he
was only out for money; I engaged another man, but the judge will
not let the release for that attorney, get another attorney, unless I
pay this man $200 additional money, which I did.
A hearing was held. The troopers admitted that they broke into
the car, th^v broke the lock, and they had all the evidence which
they had right in that car. They had nothing on me whatsoever. I
delivered the merchandise in Worcester, which I asked the man to
let me have the car.
This man pleaded guilty, the same man who loaned me the car
pleaded guilty in Federal court on January 5 for mailing and trans-
portation of lewd literature. I don't know what happened to the
sentence.
Chairman Kefatjver. February 5 of this year ?
Mr. SoBEL. This is a copy of the
Chairman Kefauver. May I see that?
Mr. SoBEL. This is a copy of the pleading [handing to Chairman
Kefauver] .
This car belonged to this man.
Chairman Kefauver. You have given me, Mr. Sobel, United States
District Court of the Southern District of New York, United ."States
of America v. Harold Kantor, before the Hon. Lawrence E. Walsh,
district judge, stenographer's minutes.
These minutes are where he pleaded guilty ?
Mr. SoBEL. He pleaded guilty. You see, in this particular time,
the case was on for about a year and a half.
This car was registered under his mother's name, which I found
out later. He is the one who let me use the car. It was a 1937
Buick, that he paid $7.5 for it, and he let me use it. I never knew what
he had in the back of that car.
Chairman Kefau\^r. Let me see if I understand this.
You had Mr. Kantor's car and he had some — who is Mr. Kantor?
Mr. Sobel. Who is he ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Sobel. Well, a fellow that I knew, that he used to be m the
chemical business. I never knew that he handled any of that stuff.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 163
He happened to come up to the place on a Friday. When I told
him that I have an order to deliver to Worcester, and I don't know how
to (i:et there, he says, "Why don't you use my car?''
With that, he gave me the keys and he told me he had some stuff
in back which I don't need, and he let me use the car.
With that I went with that car. I didn't know nothing about it,
what was in that car. There was nothing on me in any shape or
form.
Chairman Kefai^ver. What was it you delivered at Worcester?
Mr. SoiiEL. In Worcester, I delivered a magazine called Sunshine
and Plealth, that was a decision last week in the Supreme Court that
is legal to use the mail and sell it.
Chairman Kefauver. And so you delivered some Sunshine and
Health at AVorcester?
jVIr. SoiiEL. I don't hear.
Cliairman Kefauver. You delivered a magazine Sunshine and
Health at Worcester?
Mr. SoBEL. I sold it to a store up there. And the man gave me a
check, which they found in my possession, and he told them what
I sold him.
Chairman Kefauver. Then you went on to Providence?
Mr. SoBEL. Then I went to Providence. I was going to go to a
race track on a Saturday, but it was raining so bad that I decided
to go back to New York, which I was turning, going to New York.
I never stopped — they check everybody in the wdiole vicinity. They
found a list in the car and they called everyone of them when they
fouiid that, whether they ever heard of me or saw me or they knew
me. ^i o one said that they knew me.
Chairman Kefauver. What happened in the case in Rhode Island ?
]Mr. SoBEL. Here is what happened to the case : Originally I got
a certain man
Chairman KEFAU^■ER. Did they let you out, or did they convict you ?
Mr. SoBEL. I got an attorney who told me that he will — there is
nothing to it, that he is going to the Supreme Court instead of the
district court; they had no right to break into the car; they had
no right to search me, the stuli' does not belong to me.
After dragging the case for about a year and paying him all the
money that was due him, $1,000 that I agreed, he came down and
he started to send me wires I should send him more money, 500, 500,
which I didn't. And he saw that he couldn't get any more money
out of me, he says, "The best thing for you in this particular case
is for you to plead, whether no pros, it is not a conviction, you are
letting the court to decide whether the decision in the case, and I
will get a suspended sentence."
After I pleaded to that he sent me a wire back, which I have in
my possession, I should send $1,000 tine, otherwise they can't do it.
I told him why not withdraw the case and go to court with it. Well,
he says, "The best thing to do, I can't withdraw my claim," and that's
what happened. They gave me $1,000 fine.
In other words, I was forced under duress, right in court, I told
them I would like to withdraw my case and try the case, because I
never had anything to do with it.
Chairman Kefauver. Anyway, you paid $1,000?
Mr. Sobel. I paid $1,000 fine/and costs.
164 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefattv'er. ^Vliere is Mr. Kantor now ?
Mr. SoBEL. Mr. Kantor, I don't know where he is, but he is m —
whether he was sentenced or not, I don't know.
Chairman Kefau's^r. Is he living now ?
Mr. SoBEL. I don't know.
Chairman KErAu\T:R. This transcript which shows about the car,
will be filed as an exhibit here and not copied in the record, but filed
as an exhibit.
(Tlie document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 14,
and is on file with the subcommittee.)
Mr. SoBEL. As a matter of fact, the lawyer had a
Chairman Kefauver. How long were you in business in this Sun-
shine and Health magazine, Mr. Sobel?
Mr. SoBEL. About a year ago, in April, Dr. Boone came to me, I
told him that if I can sell those magazines, and with that he gave me
about 3,000 of them.
I knew that you can't sell them in New York— no; for a fact I had
them quite awhile, but I didn't care to sell them in New York, for the
reason that it was illegal to sell them on the newsstands, and I didn't
want to handle them.
But he came down to me with a decision from a district court judge,
admitting, getting an injunction against the postmaster. The United
States court went and appealed the case to the court of appeals, and
they upheld the decision of the district court.
Then the case went to the Supreme Court, it was last week or 2
weeks ago, and they refused to review the case, claiming this is not
nudist.
Chairman Kefauver. The magazine you are talking about is called
Sun Bathing; is that right?
Mr. SoBEL. Sun Bathing and — they have about 3 or 4 different
magazines, but they are all on the similar, they have been printing
them for the last 35 years, as I understood.
Chaiman Kefaua^er. How long were you in the business of handling
these magazines?
Mr. SoBEL. Well, probably since that time, since about March or
February or April 1954.
Chairman Kefauat.r. Who is this Dr. Boone that you talk about?
Mr. SoBEE. Wliere is Dr. Boone ?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, who is he and where is he?
Mr. SoBEL. Well, he is in Jersey, Mays Landing. Under the name
Nudist magazine, or something in that effect.
Chairman KEFAU^^:R. What is Dr. Boone's first name, do you know?
Mr. SoBEL. I don't know. He is the president of the company.
Chairman Kefauver. You are right, the Supreme Court did in its
decision make some ruling in connection with some of these, with the
Nudist magazine and Sun Bathing. Are you still in that business?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your regular business, sir?
Mr. SoBEL. My occupation now?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. SoBEL. Well, I sell various items, like perfume, which I have
my own registered name. And I also sell various other novelty stuff,
and so on.
Chairman Kjefauver. Do you have a store ?
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY 165
Mr. SoBEL. No. I hiid quite an office, but being the publicity that
came along, I had to curtail all my activities. I took just a mailing
address, which I still maintain at the same place.
Chairman Kefauver. Where is your place of business ?
Mr. SoBEL. 1133 Broadway.
Chairman Kefauver. AVliat is the name of your business ?
Mr. SoBEL. The name of the firm ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. SoBEL. Loki Co.
Chairman Kefauver. Along with your business, have you ever been
in the business of selling pornography, distributing it ?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. 1 had a factory on 11th Avenue for 5 years
where I employed 400 people until 1949.
Chairman Kefauver. You had a factory in the
ISIr. SoBEL. Where I manufactured dolls and doll carriages.
Chairman Kefauver. You have perfume here, Loki, Paris of New
York.
Mr. SoBEL. I am selling to various stores in New York, and Boston,
and as a matter of fact in various other places.
Chairman Kefauver. You never have been in this film business ?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir ; never did.
Chairman Kefauver. I don't see why you came here prepared to
answer questions, then.
Mr. SoBEL. I don't know.
Chairman Kefauver. You haven't anything to hide?
Mr. Sobel. I am charged with having in my possession $50,000
worth of merchandise. Evidently I should be worth at least $25,000,
but my records, 1 have been sick in 1950 and 1951, I was operated in
the hospital for about 3, 4 weeks, and I couldn't work after that. And
then things didn't move along fairly well.
I started a few things. As a matter of fact, last year, in 1954, 1 had
a firm that put up $15,000 to go in business with them, they financed
me the deal in the perfume business, whicli I was working at until
this thing came along.
Chairman Kefauver. This trouble in Rhode Island, is that the only
trouble you ever had ?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir, never been in Rhode Island.
Chairman Kefauver. In Providence.
Mr. SoBEL. Providence; no. Well, I was in Providence, probably
I used to go to the races now and then. And then I would go out and
try to buy some jobs in jewelry, but I don't think I was down there
more than twice or three times during my lifetime.
Chairman Kefauver. I said, this time you got arrested and where
you paid a fine when you had Mr. Kantor's car, is that the only time
you have been in trouble with the law ?
Mr. Sobel. I have been in trouble before with the law. I have been
in trouble for a few other times. I have been in trouble for not renew-
ing a license for a gun, which I went to Boston, I stayed there for a
couple of years. When I come down here I brought them back the
license and they say to me, "Well, technically you are not guilty;
morally you are guilty," and they gave me a fine-^no, a suspended
sentence. But I show^ed them I had a license in Boston.
At the time I brought the gun back to the station house, to take that
gun and hold it, if I will renew my license or not, I don't know. He
166 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
says, "Take that check with you, and if the license will not be renewed,
then you will bring it back."
As it came out, there was a fight in the street. They searched me
and picked up the gun. They brought me back to the station, and
they verified on it.
Chairman IvEFAtn^R. That was in 1930, possession of a revolver.
You got a suspended sentence ; is that it ?
Mr. SoBEL. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. I see in February 1934 you were charged
with forging sweepstake tickets.
Mr. SoBEL. They weren't forged. As a matter of fact, I worked
for the Government, for the Irish Government, a man by the name of
Frisco employed me. I was getting at the time salary and expenses
to work for him, for 2 years.
Chairman Kefauver. So that was a mistake.
Then October 1934, you got 3 months for gambling; did you not?
Mr. SoBEL. For gambling?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. SoBEL. That was the same charge. This is the same charge,
gambling and possession of lottery tickets. That's what they charged
for, possession of lottery tickets.
Chairman Kefauver. One seems to have been in February 1934,
and the other seems to have been in October 1934.
Mr. SoBEL. No; it's wrong on that.
Chairman Kefau\'er. Then in July 1937, conspiring to transport
stolen securities. What was that?
Mr. SoBEL. That was another case that has to be fully explained.
Just a moment, you fellows are laughing, but I will show you how
justice was meted out in a United States court, which I have a copy
of 1937 papers, where tlie papers came out, "Unusual procedure took
place in Federal court," in two newspapers.
I had an attorney who died 3 days before the trial. It tells you
everything right here. He died before the trial, and I wanted to get
an adjournment, and the judge says, "No adjourmnent."
Butler objected to the adjournment, go on trial. And I had an
attorney I just brought in for the day, and he appeared for me and
he told the judge that the attorney died, which they knew, and they
wanted an adjournment just to get the papers that my man, that my
attorney had in his possession, because everything is locked on account
of his death. They refused to give an adjournment.
Have you ever heard of it, like it?
Chairman Kefauver. If you want to file something here, we will
make that an exhibit.
Mr. Sobel. It is very interesting, what was done [handing document
to Chairman Kefauver] . They promised me, after I refused ; finally
they coaxed me and threatened me with all kinds of threats. If I
don't plead guilty I will get 10 years, or so many years.
As a result I pleaded guilty. The district attorney promised me
I will get 3 months. Before, when it came up before the judge it came
a year and a day.
But they claim here through my efforts, they bought $12,000 worth
of stolen stock in my office, but the people who have robbed the bank,
the president of the bank, and a brewery man, for $250,000, they got
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 167
a suspended sentence. It is all on records. You can have this and
read it.
Chairman Kefauver. Is all of that in here ?
Mr. SoBEL. No ; it doesn't say about them, but I know it.
The papers said it. They got a suspended sentence, after robbing
the public for a quarter of a million dollars.
Chairman Kefauver. You have given me a New Haven paper dated
Tuesday, October 26, 1937.
Mr. SoBEL. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. And this is the front page. It says:
Stock Thkft "Fence" Given Prison Term
Herman Sobol, 49. New York City, alleged "fence" who is reported to have
sold stolen securities at $18,000 to George Brott, former cashier of the East
Hampton Bank & Trust Company of East Hampton, was sentenced to 1 year and
a day.
What is that fence ; I didn't know what that meant.
Mr. Sobel. What's that?
Chairman Kefauver. What does the word "fence" mean in this
story ?
Mr. SoBEL. A "fence" would mean a receiver.
Chairman Kefauver. So they charged you with receiving the se-
curities ?
Mr. Sobel. No. They charged me with selling them, for conspiracy
to sell them. But I never sold any, nor have I ever bought any of
them.
Chairman Kefauver. Let this be inserted in the record.
(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 15," and is as follows:)
[From the New Haven (Conn.) Evening Register, October 26, 1937]
Stock Theft "Fence" Given Prison Term — New Yobker Also Fined $2,000
BY Feoeral Court in East Hampton Bank Fraud
Herman Sobol, 49, New York City, alleged fence who is reported to have sold
stolen securities at $18,000 to George Brott, former cashier of the Bast Hampton
Bank & Trust Co. of East Hampton, was sentenced to 1 vear and a day in the
Federal Penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pa., by Judge Carrol C. Hincks in the United
States district court today after he had entered a plea of guilty to a charge of
conspiracy to transport stolen securities.
In addition to the penitentiary term, Sobol was fined $2,000, this to be paid
before he is released from his sentence.
United States attorney Robert P. Butler informed the court that Sobol was
1 of 0 persons involved in the affairs of the defunct East Hampton bank. He said
that Sobol was a fence who obtained :jOO shares of Noranda Mines. Ltd. common
stock valued at $18,000 in 1936 and sold them to Brott and one Harry E. Price
of Hartford, for $1,200. These securities were later used by Brott as collateral
to secure fake loans in the East Hampton bank, it was charged.
Mr. Butler said that when the affairs of the East Hampton Bank became
known in 1936 an investigation revealed the stolen securities which were left
as collateral for notes signed by Brott as cashier of the bank.
name forged
The stocks. Mr. Butler said, were stolen from the desk of R. Thornl)erry, an
officer of the Nova Scotia ISank in New York. How they got into the hand of
Sobol he said he did not know. The shares are issued in the name of William
E. Cunningham, whose name was forged to the certificates.
Mr. Butler said that the person who forged the securities was known, but has
not yet been apprehended. He said the man would probably be apprehended later.
IQg JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Sobol appeared at first on a not guilty plea. He was represented by J. Michael
'Sullivan of New York City, prominent criminal lawyer, who asked the court for
an adiournment of the case today declaring that he was called in at the last
minute to represent Sobol when previous counsel died, and therefore had no time
to prepare his case.
PLEA REFUSED
Mr Butler objected to any adjournment declaring that he had witnesses
present and that Sobol, up to 2 weeks ago, had emitloyed David Paley. Judge
Hincks turned down the plea for an adjournment and ordered Mr. Sullivan
to proceed with the case. However, Mr. Sullivan said that the defendant would
stand mute rather than go to trial unprepared.
Judge Hincks then asked if the defense counsel would desire a recess to
inspect the indictment, and it was allowed. It was during the recess that Sobol
■decided to change his plea. , , .
liank Commission Walter Perry was among the si>ectators in court.
Mr. SoBEL. That's what happened in cases where you have no money
to fight the cases and you are broke.
Chairman Kefauver. That was up in Connecticut m 1937, was it
not ?
Mr. SoBEL. That's the one ; that's the case.
Chairman Kefauver. Now here in 1937 they have you charged with
transporting stolen securities out in Pennsylvania.
Mr. SoBEL. This is the same identical case that you are referring
to now. It happened, it took place— I was in New York. I was never
in Connecticut. But the transaction took place in Connecticut. They
had him indicted. Then they held me as a conspirator for selling it.
Chairman Kefau-vtsr. Did they try you down in Pennsylvania later,
too?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir.
Chairman Ivefauver. Didn't you get charged down in Pennsyl-
vania ?
Mr. SoBEL. With what?
Chairman Ivefauver. Didn't they make a charge against you in
Pennsylvania ?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir.
Chairman Kefau\t3R. Never had any trouble in Pennsylvania ?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Wliat is this July 1937, National Stolen
Property Act?
Mr. Sobel. What's that? National what?
Chairman Kefauver. National Stolen Property Act, 1 year and 1
day, and a $2,000 fine.
Mr, Sobel. This is the same thing, right here.
Chairman Kefauver. Then this other thing was May 8, 1954, trans-
porting obscene literature. That is the one you are talking about at
Lincoln, R. I.?
Mr. Sobel. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have any questions you
want to ask?
Mr. BoBO. I have a few questions, Mr. Chairman.
Did you ever sell any pornographic film to Mr. Harold Kantor ?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever have any business dealings other than this
one time ^^ ith Mr. Kantor i
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 169
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir. Except about 2 or 3 years back, it was the alco-
holic business in Jersey, and I had some deal with him trying to get
some perfume out of him.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know a Mr. Fred Berson ?
Mr. SoBEL. Who?
Mr. BoBO. Fred Berson, B-e-r-s-o-n ?
Mr. SoBEL. No.
Mr. BoBO. You never approached or talked or did any type of busi-
ness with Mr. Berson ?
Mr. SoBEL. Don't know him.
Chairman Kefauver. Have you ever done any business in
Brooklyn ?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir.
Mr. BoHRAR. Did you hear the question? Did you ever do any
business in Brooklyn?
Mr. SoBEL. What kind of business?
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business in Brooklyn?
Mr. SoBEL. Well, I sold some merchandise up there, but I didn't
sell any — except perfume, probably, or some other materials, like
household goods.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you have some business with Delaware
Wired Music Co. in Wilmington, Del. ?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know that company ?
Mr. SoBEL. No ; never heard of them.
Chairman Kefauver. You never heard of them?
Mr. SoBEL. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Would you make phone calls to there ?
Mr. SoBEL. Today ?
Chairman Kefauver. No ; to this Delaware Wired Music Co. ?
Mr. SoBEL. In Wilmington ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
]Mr. SoBEL. There were phone calls made by a fellow — if this is
the fellow— who gives out information on races, and I think I had
a fellow that was in my office — I mean, he used to come up occa-
sionally— and told me he wants to make a few long distance calls.
And I think those calls were made to Wilmington to get results on
races, or something to that effect.
The same thing happened in Baltimore.
Chairman Kefauver. That is the Armstrong Sports Service in
Baltimore ?
Mr. Sobel. That's right. If he made the calls, I don't know any-
thing about it. Whatever calls he made, he ])aid me for them.
Chairman Kefauver. Was that in connection with any bookmak-
ing business ?
Mr, Sobel. I don't know if he was connected, but he was using
the phone. Probably a couple of times a week for about a month or so.
Chairman Kefauver. We have a long list of calls that you have
made, and made back and forth to you, either by you or to you,
from a whole bunch of w^hat appear to be book stores or fun shops,
and things of that sort. Do you know about those? I could name
them off here to you.
170 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. SoBEL. If you will ask me the names I will probably recollect
and recall.
Chairman Kefauver. I will just hand you this memorandum and
let you see it. Here are three pages of them [handing to Mr. Sobel] .
Mr. SoBEL. George Magic Store, I did call them a few times. As a
matter of fact, I sold him some picture magazines, the same thing that
I — I also had some stuff from a film out in Chicago. As a matter of
fact, they are suing me for 2,000 books that they sent to me.
Chairman Kefauver. What kind of books were those?
Mr. SoBEL. Those are picture books, just models, you know, nothing
else but models. They are selling them right along, they are sending
them through the mails. I have the name, the Magic — they have
about three different titles. I have the papers, because Dun & Brad-
street were trying to serve me with a summons.
Chairman kEFAIT^T.R. He is trying to sue you for books that he
claims you have not paid for?
Mr. SoBEL. What?
Chairman Kefauver. Is he trying to sue you for books he claims you
have not paid for ?
Mr. Sobel. That's right.
When this case came up to Providence, of course they teletyped it to
the different stations here in New York. And when I got back on a
Sunday morning, Monday morning the police were in my hotel and
the manager let them in to search my room. I found out only about it
3 weeks later, 3 months later.
When I got back to the office on a Monday morning there were also
police down there searching the rooms, the place of business. And
they went away. But they did find in there the magazine that I got
from Chicago. They also found the magazines that were from the
Sunshine and Health.
They were there, and then they sent over the inspector. The in-
spector came back and took two of those books with him.
About a week later the same officers came in; they says they got
orders from the inspector to take those books out, although they were
laying in a corner all tightly packed.
They took them out and they took them to tlie property clerk. I
was arraigned in special sessions court, and the case was dismissed.
And still in this clay I couldn't get
Chairman Kefauver. You were buying books from somebody in
Chicago, and he is trying to sue you. Did vou buy a lot of books from
him?
Mr. SoBEL. Did I what ?
Chairman Kefauver. Did you buy a lot of books from him ?
Mr. SoBEL. I bought, yes. But'l told him, if it weren't for the
fact
Chairman Kefauver. Where did you buy books from, Mr. Sobel?
Chicago and anywhere else ?
Mr. Sobel. And those people here.
Chairman KErAu\T.R. What peo])le here ?
Mr. Sobel. The Sunshine and Health, in Mays Landing.
Chairman Kefauver. What would you do with the books ?
Mr. Sobel. They took the books away, and I never got them back.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 171
So I reported to the property clerk to claim the books over there.
They took it out of my place. Never offered to sell them, right here
or any other place, except out of town.
Cliairman Kefauvek. Your counsel has a list there of 2 or 3 pages
of fun shops where you called back and forth. What would all that
be about? I don't want to go into the details.
Mr. SoBEL. This probably would be the Wilmington number. Hobo-
ken number I don't know. Long Beach, St. Louis — that is one of the
men that was in my office, Schlesser. calling St. Louis. Boston is
Jack Goldberg. I was selling him perfume.
Philadelphia, Stanton Bernstein; I don't know him.
Jack Goldberg again in Boston.
Stone in Boston : I sold him a lot of perfume for a firm that I repre-
sented at the time, and I was working on a commission basis, and I
])robably called him a few times.
Stone Bros., they are on Hanover Street, this is the right address.
1 spoke to him a number of times.
Now, Irving, this is a man that I sold him magazines; he is a book-
store there.
Chairman Kefaua'er. Hand me back the book, please.
(Document returned to Chairman Kefauver.)
Chairman Kefauver. So those do represent some kind of calls back
and forth about something, do they ?
Mr. SoBEL. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know Al Stone ?
Mr. Sobel. No ; I don't know him.
Chairman Kefauver. Never saw him before ? •
Mr. SoBEL. No.
Chairman Kefauver. How about Mr. Mishkin, do you know him?
Mr. Sobel. No ; I don't know him either.
Chairman Kefauver. You have not had any business with Mr.
Mishkin at all?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know Mr. Rubinstein, of Brooklyn?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Who is Francis J. Pelletier?
Mr. Sobel. ^Y\\o ?
Chairman Kefau^'er. Do you know Mr. Pelletier?
Mr. Sobel. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Bobo, anything else?
Mr. BoBo. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. We thank you for answering the questions.
I think we got along a whole lot better than if you refused to answer.
Don't you think so, Mr. Bohrar?.
Mr. BoiiRAR. I think so. He did just exactly what he told me he
wouldn't do.
Mr. Sobel. If you people came and checked a picture, I couldn't
liold out any more but tell the truth. This is actually the truth. It
could be verified through the court over there, with my |)ayment of
the money, and the refusal to withdraw my plea after I gave the man
all that money w^e agreed to, and I refused to go to court, after he
had all the minutes written up.
Cliairman Kefauver. Your experience with lawyers has not been
ver}' good, has it ?
65263—55 12
172 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. SoBEL. That's when you go through life, it happens.
Chairman Kefauver. I hope you don t get mixed up with these
things any more.
Thank you, Mr. Sobel.
We will have about a 5-minute recess.
(Whereupon, a five-minute recess was taken.)
Chairman Kefauver. The subcommittee is glad to have a visit
from Dr. Herbert C. Mayer, who is a distinguished former college
president, who has given the subconnnittee many worthwhile sugges-
tions and helped us on several problems. We are glad to have you
with us. Doctor.
Mr. Bobo, who is our next witness ?
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Abe Rotto.
Mr. RoTTO. I object to the television.
Chairman Kefauver. I ask the cooperation of the press.
TESTIMONY OF ABE ROTTO, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
(Abe Rotto was sworn.).
Mr. Levine. I am H. Robert Levine, 154 Nassau Street, New York
City.
Chairman Kefau\'er. You are Mr. Rotto's attorney, sir?
Mr. Levene. Yes; I am.
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Your full name is Abe Rotto, R-o-t-t-o ?
Mr. Rotto. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What is your address, Mr. Rotto?
Mr. RoTTO. 55 Linden Boulevard, Brooklyn 26.
Mr. BoBO. In what business are you engaged ?
Mr. RoTTo. At the present time I am selling novelties, pens, im-
ported lighters, gadgets, balloons, various things for candy stores
and small drugstores.
Mr. Bobo. Would you speak up, Mr. Rotto ?
Mr. RoTTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bobo. From where do you conduct your business ?
Mr. RoTTo. From 55 Linden Boulevard.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Rotto, are you acquainted with a Mr. William
Landers ?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Levine, I will direct the witness to answer
questions that I w^ish answered. Can we let the record show that
where he refuses to answer that he is directed to answer ?
Mr. Levine. Yes ; and that he refuses.
Chairman Kefauver. And that when he says he refuses to answer,
we will have it understood that that is under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Levine. That is correct.
Mr. Bobo. Were you engaged in partnership with Mr. William
Landers in the Landers Novelty Co., 220 Fifth Avenue, New York?
Mr. Rotto. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment.
Chairman Kefauver. We will let the record show what provision
of the Constitution you are refusing to answer under. That is under-
stood.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 173
Mr. Levine. Yes.
Mr. RoTTO. Thank you.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Ely Goldsmith of 1321 Nostrand Ave-
nue, Brooklyn ?
Mr. EoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Were you arrested with Mr. Goldsmith on February 12.
1954, for the possession and sale of indecent books, films, and photos f
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Were you released on $250 bail after this arrest ?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Ivefauver. Mr. Bobo, do you have the police record ?
For the record, the report on which you base your questions may be
put in the record.
Mr. BoBO. Were you arrested on July 29, 1954, at 197 Clarkson
Street for having in your possession indecent films, books and photos?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. I hand you here a list of films and pornographic material
nnd ask you is this a list of the material that was found in your
possession as of that date [handing to Mr. Rotto] ?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Let it be put in the record to show on what the
question was based.
(The document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 16," and
is as follows:)
Exhibit No. 10
.July 29, 1954.
At 11 : 30 a. m., .July 29, 1954, Patrolman John Hayes, No. 9404, B H. B. P. S.,
<issisted by Patrolman Piay Lamas, No. 7709, B. H. B. P. S., arrested one Abe
Rotto, male, white, 61 years. United States, address .55 Linden Boulevard.
(Arrest No. 342, 71st precinct) Charge No. 1, violation of section 1141 P. L.
(indecent films, books, and photos). Charge No. 2, violation of section 1142
P. L. (contraceptives, "French ticklers") having had in his possession with intent
to sell and stored in premises a store (first floor) 197 Clarkson Street (4-story
brick, stores, and dwelling), owned by E. Miller, 197 Clarkson Street, second
floor.
Following removed and held as evidence :
Film : Rolls
8-mm. film (indecent photos) 230
16-mm. film 84
Oriswald film splicer, R2-R4.3G62 1
Mansfield film splicer. Model No. 950 1
Books and booklets : Copies
Indecent books, Boudoir Secret 227
Indecent booklets :
Lazy Lovers 316
The Honeymoon 130
Books :
Weekend at Nudist Camp (price, $10 per copy) 201
Playing With a Mistress 60
Booklets :
Various 103
Midnight Intimacies 18
Books, Affairs of Tronbadore (price $25) .^7
174 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Books and booklets — Continued
Booklets : Copies
London Stage 38
Jaws of Fate 26
Erratic Professor 21
Hollywood in June 63
Various 1, 130
Wedding Bells and others 740
Wally and the King and others 956
Photos :
Sets inuecent photos (25 photos per set) 29
Sets lewd photographs 12V^
Sets of lewd postcards — 4
Lewd photos 300
Decks lewd playing cards 450
Package pornographic poses 1
Slides, immoral poses 9
Pieces obscene objects 49
Obscene novelty pins 202
Contraceptives "French ticklers" (violation Public Law 1142) 183
Small suggestive telescopes 160
(Portion of film shown in presence of defendant at 71st precinct, who admitted
ownership.)
Also defendant's auto, 1949 Pontiac. 4-door. license No. 6Y-8066 seized and
held as evidence. Found in raito : 1 roll 8-mm. film and 1 roll 16-mm. film and
miscellaneous cards and salesbooks.
Followinu' present at scene : D. C. I. Goldberg. D. I. Bradley, Capt. William Fleig,
Patrolman Robert Kirschmeier. No. 14250 ; Arthur Long, No. 4644 ; Alex Green-
wald. No. 6650 ; Patrolman Nolan, legal bureau ; Assistant District Attorney Gaza.
Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that yon have been in the business of selling
pornography since 1935 ?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin ?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that yon have been purchasino; and dis-
tributino- pornography from Mr. Al Rubin, Mr. Al Stone, alias Abra-
ham Rubin, since 1945 ?
Mr. RoTTO, I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Is it not true that Mr. Al Stone sold pornographic mate-
rials to you when you were in a partnership with "William Landers?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bono. Is it not true that he also supplied you with pornographic
materials at 197 Clarkson Street, Brooklyn, N! Y.?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBo. Is it not true that you refused to divulge the names of
your suppliers of pornographic material because you feared bodily
harm ?
Mr. RoTTo. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Rotto, you are
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rotto, are you refusing to answer any of
these questions because of fear of retaliation, what might be done to
you ?
(Mr. Rotto confers with Mr. I^evine.)
Mr. RoTTO. I stand on m}^ refusal, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. I did not understand. Are you in a.business
about which you can tell us at the present time?
Mr. Rotto. I told the counsel what business I am in.
Chairman Kefau\ter. How big a business is that ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 175
Mr. RoTTO. Very small, sir.
Chairman Ketauver. Do you sell just in your shop or do you get
out on the street?
Mr. RoTTO. I have no shop ; I go out soliciting the business.
Chairman Kefauver. You go out what?
Mr. RoTTO. I go out selling these items.
Chairman Kefauver. You go out selling the items about which
you are talking?
Mr. RoTTO. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Where do you sell them?
Mr. RoTTO. I just got started ; I just got a few, just a handful of cus-
tomers I called on.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you sell in Brooklyn?
Mr. RoTTO. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauvter. On what street do you w'ork ?
Mr. RoTTO. Wherever I can land, sir. No street. I am not a street-
corner hawker, sir. I walk into a store and I try to sell the items
that I have.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, IVIr. Bobo ; anything else?
Mr. Bobo. Have you ever been employed as a salesman for the Times
Square Corp.?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Have you ever received any telephone calls from Mr. Al
Stone, alias Abraham Rubinstein?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Do you know Edgar Maynard Levy, of Washington,
D.C.?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business with Mr. Levy ?
Mr. RoTTO. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Rotto, we will keep you under con-
tinuing subpena subject to further call of the committee, upon notice
to you or your counsel, Mr. Leviiie. That is all now.
Mr. RoTTO. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Call our next witness.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Eugene Maletta.
Mr. Lazer. My client will object to the use of television.
TESTIMONY OF EUGENE MALETTA, RICHMOND HILL, N. Y.
(Mr. Maletta was sworn by the chairman.)
Chairman Kefauier. Mr. Maletta — by the way, what is your name,
sir?
Mr. Lazer. Leon D. Lazer, 120-09 Liberty Avenue, Richmond Hill,
N. Y.
Chairman Kefauver. Richmond Hill, N. Y. ?
Mr. Lazer. Richmond Hill ; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Maletta, what is your address ?
Mr. Maletta. 188-29 120th Avenue, St. Albans, N. Y.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. You ask Mr. Maletta
your questions.
How old are you, sir ?
Mr. Maletta. Twenty-eight.
Chairman Kefauver. Let me ask one or two questions.
176 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Were you born here in New York ?
Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Where did you go to school ?
Mr. Maletta. I don't want to get it in the papers.
Mr. Lazer. You have got to answer the questions.
Mr. Maletfa. I went to P. S. 62, P. S. 108. Then I went to Stuyve-
sant High School, and then to City. I finished school after I came-
out of the Army in Jamaica High School on Long Island.
Chairman Kefaua-er. Do you w^ant to tell us what business you
are in ?
Mr. Maletta. I am in the printing business, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. What is the name of your company ?
Mr. ]\Ialetta. Pilgrim Press.
Chairman Kefauver. 103-43 Lefferts Boulevard, Richmond Hill?
Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You started in this about 1950 ?
Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Is that a corporation ?
Mr. Maletta. No, sir ; it is sole ownership.
Chairman Kefauver. How large a press is this ?
Mr. Maletta. I have a fairly large place, Senator.
Chairman Kefai^ er. How many people do you employ ?
Mr. JNIaletta. I employ three, sir, plus my wife who helps me out.
Chairman Kefauver. What do you print at this press ?
Mr. Maletta. We print any printing job at all. Senator, any type of
printing. We do business cards, any type of printing that is called
for in the normal course of an office work, or anything such as that.
Chairman Kefau^'er. Did you print Nights of Horror ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth
amendment, that it may tend to incriminate me. Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. I will have to direct you to answer it.
Mr. Maletta. I would still have to refuse. Senator under the fifth
amendment.
Chairman Kefaum^r. Can we understand, then, Mr. Lazer, that
when the questions are asked, Mr. Maletta will be directed to answer.
Mr. Lazer. Yes ; that is agreed to. Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. And if he refuses to answer we will under-
stand that that is under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Lazer. That is agreed to.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, IMr. Bobo.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Maletta, did you ever have in your possession plates
used for printing Nights of Horror ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Mr. Maletta, have you ever been arrested ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. It is not true that you were arrested in New York for
printing and having in your possession obscene literature under the
title of Nights of Horror ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Is it not true that the plates which you had in your pos-
session were furnished to you by Mr. Eddie Mishkin ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefautver. Do you know Mr. Eddie Mishkin ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 177
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer, Senator.
Chairman Kefauver. How large is this business of yours; what
is your gross business a year?
Mr. Maletta. Well, I don't have my tax forms: they have it.
But I think last year I did— I am not sure, Senator; I mean, every
day I do business. But I think I did about between thirty-five and
forty thousand dollars. I am not sure exactly. Senator.
Chairman Kefau\"er. I understand that the reports you have given
here show forty-odd-thousand dollars.
Mr. Maletta. I will tell you the truth, all I did was sign the form.
My accountant comes every month, and he does it.
Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Levine your regular lawyer — I mean
Mr. Lazer?
Mr. Lazer. May I make a statement. Your Honor?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Lazer. Bather. Senator. I represent Mr. Maletta in some,
matters, and I don't in some other matters.
I think you might describe me as one of his lawj^ers.
Chairman Kefau\"er. All right. Thank you, sir.
Continue, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Maletta, when did you first begin in the printing
business ?
Mr. Maletta. I first began in the printing business working for
someone else, sir, after I came out of the Army.
Mr. BoBO. "\^nien did you first establish the Pilgrim Press?
Mr. Malett\4. I think 1950. I think I am in it 5 years.
Mr. BoBo. At that time what was your net worth, Mr. Maletta ?
Mr. MaletTxV. To start my business I borrowed money, to be exact.
Mr. BoBO. From whom did you borrow this money ?
Mr. Maletta. I borrowed money from my mother, and later on
from banks to help increase the business.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever borrowed any money from Mr. Eddie
Mishkin ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. BoBO. What is your net worth as of today, Mr. Maletta?
Mr. Maj.etta. I will estimate. I could not say exactly. I have
about $35,000 worth of equipment and fixtures, plus stock.
Mr. Bobo. In the past 4 years you have purchased most of this
equipment valued at approximately $35,000 ?
Mr. Maletta. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Was all the income you derived from printing, stationery,
business cards, and items of that type?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer this.
Mr. BoBO. Did anyone furnish you the money to purchase the equip-
ment which you are now using ?
Mr. Maletta. No; no one furnished me with any money, except the
banks. I did borrow from various banks.
Mr. Bono. Mr. Maletta. have you ever printed anv memo pads
entitled "Things To Do Today" ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever sell any of these memo pads to Mr. Eddie
Mishkin, or the Kingsley Book Store ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Bobo. Did you buy an offset press at the figure of $5,000 ?
178 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr, Maletta. Yes. I bought it from Craig & O'Kane Corp.
Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any of the funds for purchasing this
press, Mr. Eddie Mishkin ?
Mr. Mai.etta. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. BoBO. Is an offset press the type of ]n-ess that uses phites to
present printed matter ?
Mr. Maletta. If I interpret you, in other words, it uses phxtes to
reproduce ; and that's it.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever printed any books or magazines of any
type?
Mr. Maletta. I have j^rinted various books and literature.
Cliairman KE^Au^^:R. Is it the Nights of Horror — do you know this
Cosmo Boy — do you know the book Xiglits of Horoor ?
Mr. Maletta. I refuse to answer that.
Chairman Kefauver. Very welh I guess that is all, Mr. Maletta.
We may want to call you back again, sir.
Mr. Lazer. We will hold ourselves ready.
Chairman Kefauver. I should say that a number of these witnesses
plead the fifth amendment, all of these matters will be studied by the
staif of the committee and submitted to the whole committee for such
action as may be indicated.
I must say that personally I don't see the justification for the plea
in answer to many of the questions that have been asked by counsel.
We have had before us some })eople who the records show are substan-
tial people in this pornographic business, Mr. Mishkin particularly,
whose name appears as one of the big operators, the kingpins in the
business, in a good part of the country.
I cannot say what will be the action on some of these pleas, but they
w^ill be presented to the committee, and my personal recommendation
will be to the committee that the ])leas are not justified in answer to a
good many questions by counsel.
Who is our next witness ?
Mr. BoBo. ]\Ir. Lou Shomer.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SHOMER, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
(Mr. Shomer was sworn by the Chairman.)
Chairman Kefau\'er. You are counsel ?
Mr. Rachsteix. Yes, sir. Jacob Rachstein, E-a-c-h-s-t-e-i-n.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your address, Mr. Rachstein?
Mr. Rachstein. 280 Broadway, New York.
Chairman Kefauver. You are counsel here for Mr. Shomer?
Mr. Rachstein. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. Would you give us your full name?
Mr. Shomer. Louis Shomer.
Mr. BoBO. What is your present address, Mr. Shomer ?
Mr. Shomer. 1541 East Fifth Street, Brooklyn.
Mr. BoBO. Is that Brooklyn, N. Y. ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, in what business are you engaged?
Mr. Shomer. In the real-estate business.
Mr. BoBO. Would you speak up so I can hear you ?
Mr. Shomer. I am in the real-estate business.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 179
Mr. BoBO. I^Ir. Sliomer, have yon ever been engaged in liandling
pornogr-a]1hic materials ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. j i^o
Mr. BoBO. In what type of pornoofra])hic materials have yon dealt?
Mr. Shomer. I took photographs, improper pliotographs.
Mr. BoBO. Yon took improper pliotographs?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Showing obscene acts and perversion?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. When were yon engaged in this bnsiness?
Mr. Shomer. Before the war.
Mr. BoBO. What year Avas that ?
Mr. Shomer. 1940, I believe.
Mr. BoBO. To whom did yon sell these photographs which you
took?
Mr. Shomer. I didn't sell any photographs. I jnst took the photo-
graphs. I was a photographer.
Mr. BoBO. I can't hear yon, Mr. Shomer.
Mr. Shomer. I didn't sell these photographs; I jnst did the pho-
tography.
Mr. BoBO. For whom did yon work ?
Mr. Shomer. For Jack Brotman.
Chairman Kefaitver. 1 did not understand yon.
Mr. Shomer. Jack Brotman.
Chairman Kefauver. How do yon spell the last name?
Mr. Shomer. B-r-o-t-m-a-n.
Chairman Kefaitver. Where does he live ; where is he ?
Mr. Shomer. I don't know, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Yon don't know ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir. I haven't seen him since then.
Mr. BoBO. Did that take place in New York City ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, have yon ever been arrested ?
Mr. Shomer. I was arrested then.
Mr. BoBO. What sentence did you receive?
Mr. Shomer. I was sentenced to the city prison.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever been arrested since that time ?
Mr. Shomer. Onc«.
Mr. BoBO. W[mt were yon arrested for then ?
Mr. Shomer. I don't remember the charge, but it was possession
of indecent or improper literature, possession, and transportation.
Mr. BoBO. Where did that arrest take place ?
Mr. Shomer. In Portsmouth.
Mr. BoBO. Portsmouth, Maine?
Mr. Shomar. No. Portsmonth, Va.
Mr. BoBO. At that time what type of pornographic material did
you have in your possession ?
Mr. Shomer. I didn't have it in my possession. I was accompany-
ing a friend, and he was riding down to Florida. He had some trouble
with the car then, and he was arrested and I was with him.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know from whom your friend received the porno-
graphic material he had in the car?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
180 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. What is the name of your friend that was arrested
with you ?
Mr. Shomer. Ben Riceburg.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Shomer. R-i-c-e-b-u-r-g.
Mr. BoBO. R-i-c-e-b-u-r-g?
Mr. Shomer. I think so.
Mr. BoBO. Where does Mr. Riceburg live ?
Mr. Shomer. Somewhere in New York. I don't see him.
Mr. BoBO. You have not seen him since the time you were arrested ?
Mr. Shomer. No ; I saw him once last year.
Mr. BoBO. What was his address at the time 3^ou were arrested ?
Mr. Shomer. I don't remember.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, have you ever had any dealings, or do you
know Mr. Ike or Isadore Dorf man, of Baltimore, Md. ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Haven't you ever met, or didn't you in fact, in 1953,
meet Mr. Dorfman and George Fodor in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you meet these two people in Brooklyn, N. Y. ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you had any business dealings at all with Mr.
Tsadore Dorfman and Mr. George Fodor?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know where the Brooklyn Navy is ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Did you not in 1953 meet with Mr. Ike Dorfman and
Mr. George Fodor in the company of a man named Ben ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Edgar Maynard Levy of Washington,
D. C?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. You have never had any business dealings with Edgar
Maynard Levy ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. He formerly lived on Tinker Drive on Long Island.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't know him ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Eddie Mishkin ?
• Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any business dealings at all with
the Kingsley Book Store ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Or the Times Square Corp. ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any, or do you know Mr. Al Stone?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any business dealings with Mr.
Al Stone, alias xVbe Rubin ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
. Mr. BoBO. Mr. Shomer, do you have the original records which
were called for in your subpena ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir, I have everything.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 181
Mr. BoBO. Do you have those where they could be presented to the
subcommittee ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What was your income for the year 1954 i
Mr. Shomer. I have the records here, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, about how much was it ?
Mr. SiioMER. About eight or nine thousand. It's a jomt income, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Joint income of you and your wife?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. In the business in which you are engaged, what was the
cross business which you did 'I
Mr. Shomer. Which business do you mean, sir? The real estate
business ?
Mr. BoBO. The real estate business.
Mr. Shomer. I have just gone into it in the last 2 months.
Chairman Kefauver. You have gotten out of the other and gone
into this: is that right? . n.- t i i
Mr. Showier. I have been out of business now since 194(. 1 had a
publishing business, and my health failed, and I had to give it up.
The business was on its way down.
Chairman Kefauver. Didn't you write some books and some
irticles (
Mr. Shomer. I used to write the Laugh Library at that time, pub-
lisher. It was distributed nationally on the newsstands.
Chairman Kefauver. When you would make these pictures, to
w'hom did you sell them?
Mr. Shomer. I didn't sell them; I just did the photography tor
someone else.
Chairman Kefauver. Someone else would furnish you the models
and the equipment and you would make the pictures '?
^Ir. Shomer. No. The party that I worked for subsequently was
arrested, we all were arrested, and his conviction, because he opened
up on evervone. I was just the employee.
Mr. Bono. Do you know Mr. Harry Kunkelman?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Cleveland, Ohio?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Akron, Ohio ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. You have never sold or dealt in any motion-picture film
with Mr. Kunkelman ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever received any negatives from Mr. Kunkel-
man or transferred any negatives to him?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Shomer, we don't want to get you m any
trouble here, but we have a lengthy letter from the captain of detec-
tives out at Akron, saying that they had Harry Kunkelman before
them and he received a great deal of films, from their investigation,
find that Mr. Kunkelman's statement was that one of the principal
sources of this material was from you.
Mr. Shomer. That's not true, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't think that is true?
Mr. Shomer. I know it is not.
182 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. You never shipped any out to Akron?
Mr. Shomer. Never, sir.
Chairman Keifauver. You don't know Mr. Kunkelman ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't know this man Harry Kunkehnan
at all?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. How much material of pornographic nature
was in this automobile in which you were riding with your friend in
Portsmouth, Va. ?
Mr. Shomer, There were several packages, but I don't know how
much.
Chairman Kefauver. You inean several big packages?
Mr. Shomer. I really don't know.
Chairman Kefau\^er. Where was he taking it, to Florida ?
Mr. Shomer. I really wouldn't know.
Chairman Kefauver. You were riding with him. To where did
you start out?
Mr, Shomer. We left from Brooklyn.
Chairman Kefauver. And where were you going to?
Mr. Shomer. We were going to Florida.
Mr. Chumbris. Where in Florida ?
Mr, Shomer, Miami,
Mr. Chumbris. AMio to in Miami ?
Mr, Shomer. I wouldn't know,
Mr. Chumbris. Where did you finally end up?
Mr. Shomer, Portsmouth. In jail.
Mr. BoBo. Did your friend make any stops between Newark and
Portsmouth, Va., and drop off any pornographic literature or any-
thing in his car?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr, BoBo. Neither you nor he stopped at any place?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever been in Port Chester, N, Y,, Mr. Shomer?
Mr. Shomer. Where?
Mr. BoBo. Port Chester, N, Y.
Mr. Shomer. No, sir,
Mr. BoBO. You never have met Mr. Edgar Maynard Levy in Port
Chester, N. Y., and transferred to him large quantities of pornographic
material ?
Mr. Shomer. Never,
Chairman Kefauver, All right, Mr. Shomer. If we want vou again,
we will get in touch with Mr. Rachstein.
Mr. BoBO, I^have just one more question. Senator, if I may.
Chairman Kefaua'er. All right.
Mr. BoBo. During the past month, from April through May 15,
you have deposited in the bank some $16,733,20,
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Was that all derived from what source ?
Mr. Shomer. When I sold the large book company I had about
$25,000 or $30,000, and I got about $10,000 for the large book company.
Tlien I sold my house, T got $11,000 out of that.
Mr. BoBo. When did you sell your book company ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 183
Mr. Shomer. I sold that to
Mr. BoBo. When?
Mr. Shomer. In 1947.
Mr. BoBo. This is April 4, 1955, we were speaking of, March 29.
1955, through April 2, 1955.
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. Now may I have the question again, please?
Mr. BoBO. From what source did you derive the $16,7o3.20 ?
Mr. Shomer. I have the money at my broker's. I ordered the
money from my broker. I got a $10,000 check and a $2,000 check from
my broker.
Mr. BoBO. Who is your broker ?
Mr. Shomer. Barron G. Helbig & Co.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Gennaio Di Napoli and Mr. Ealph
Ardolina ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. You paid them on March 31, 1955, $4,000?
Mr. Shomer. That's right.
Mr. BoBo. What was that payment for, sir ?
Mr. Shomer. That's a contract on a house on East Second Street,
1714. The closing will be the end of July, July 28, 1 believe— June 28.
Mr. BoBO. And your average income, according to your bank de-
posits, is some $2,000 a week from March 29 to April 2?
Mr. Shomer. Bank deposit?
Mr. BoBO. Yes.
Mr. Shomer. I have no bank deposit.
Mr. BoBO. In the National City Bank of New York City.
Mr. Shomer. It is a bank account I just opened up to do the real
estate business. Whenever I need any money I get it from the broker.
I didn't have any prior bank accounts. I would sell some stock and
get what I need.
Mr. BoBO. March 29 to April 2, April 4, 6 days, you had transac-
tions involving $16,733.20?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir. I have the contracts here.
Chairman Ivefauver. All right, Mr. Shomer. Thank you.
Mr. Rachstein. Your Honor, is his checkbook available, by any
chance?
Chairman Kefauver. Can we return it to him, Mr. Bobo?
Mr. BoBO. Yes [handing] .
Mr. Rachstein. Thank you very much. Your Honor.
Chairman Kefauver. Since being here we have received a good
many letters from people expressing interest in the hearing. I am
particularly interested to receive one letter today postmarked Brook-
lyn, May 25. It says:
Dear Sir : This is an unsolicited advertisement received by a 16-year-oId high-
school boy.
Sincerely.
An Anxious Mother.
The advertisement apparently came in this envelope [exhibiting],
Atine Co.. 631 Third Avenue, New York City. The advertisement
will speak for itself. I am going to put the advertisement soliciting,
trying to sell movies, nude pictures, various and sundry kinds of
things, in the record. This will be made part of the files.
(The matter above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 17," and
is on file with the subcommittee.)
184 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauvek. Maybe some of the press would like to see-
what is being sent out through the mails.
The other witnesses that we have subpenaed, and some others, will
be asked to come back next Tuesday, the 31st. Our hearing that
morning will begin sharply at 10 o'clock.
We stand in recess until next Tuesday.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 30 p. m., the subcommittee recessed until 10 a. m.,,
Tuesday,May 31, 1955.)
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(Obscene and Pornographic Materials)
TUESDAY, MAY 31, 1955
United States Senate,
Subcommittee of the Commii'iee on the Judiciary,
TO Investigate Juvenile Delinquency,
New York, N. Y.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10:20 a. m., in
room 1703, United States Court House, Foley Square, New York City,
N. Y., Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman, presiding.
Present : Senators Estes Kefauver and William Langer.
Also present : Peter N. Chumbris, associate counsel ; Vincent Gaug-
han, special counsel ; George Butler, investigator ; George Martin, in-
vestigator; Pat Kiley, investigator, and William Haddad, consultant.
Chairman Kefauver. As chairman of the subcommittee, I want to
apologize for being late this morning; although I left Washington in
ample time, my plane had some difficulty in landing and also finding
a place to put out the airport — the traffic was pretty bad, too.
We are awfully glad to have Senator Langer with us again this
morning at this hearing.
Today the subcommittee is holding its third hearing on pornographic
material and its tie-in to juvenile delinquency.
At our first meeting last Tuesday, several witnesses established the
correlation between pornographic material and juvenile delinquency,
which I think most of us understood, anyway.
Dr. Karpman, for instance, the famous criminologist, said that he
was convinced that the distribution of these materials among youngs-
ters in many cases led to unnatural sex practices and to juvenile de-
linquency.
Father Egan and others testified that they had noticed a definite
increase in the use of these materials by youngsters.
On Thursday the pattern of sale and distribution of these materials
was established. Pornography was shown to be "big business" with
tentacles in almost every community in the Nation.
The members of the subcommittee were shocked to learn that chil-
dren as young as 3 and 4 years old were being used in making porno-
graphic films. Although this low age bracket is the singular case, it
was established that boys and girls in their upper teens, not only see
these films, but actually engage in their manufacture and sale." In
most cases these children are being exploited by unscrupulous adults.
On Thursday several witnesses saw fit to avail themselves of the
self-incriminations of the fifth amendment. I feel that all of these
witnesses were unjustified in refusing to answer some of the ques-
185
186 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
tions and, as I stated at the time, my recommendation would be
that they be proceeded against for contempt of the Senate.
Today we are recalling some of these witnesses for additional ques-
tions. Several portions of their testimony are in need of clarification.
If they see fit, they can use this opportunity to cooperate with the
committee, ancl that will be taken into consideration.
Senator Langer. I say, Mr. Chairman, you have unanimous support
in your attitude as to those pleading the fifth amendment.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you. Senator Langer. I am certain
that the other members of the committee will feel that they were
unjustified in refusing to testify and answer some of the questions.
In our hearings last week we saw that the pornography business
operates partially, at least, because of loopholes in the Federal law to
curtail distribution of these materials.
In addition, widepsread use of pornography exists because of in-
adequate local and State laws. I sincerely hope that every community
will evaluate its own pornography laws and possibly revamp them
in the light of information extracted at these hearings.
Any community that desires the help of the staff of the subcom-
mittee or of the subcommittee need only to write and' we will assist
them in any way possible.
I am glad to say that there is a connnunication and a contact be-
tween tlie members of this staff and many legislators and enforce-
ment officials throughout the country.
Of course, in the final analysis the attitude of the public will be
what will determine whether this business is going to be stamped
out or not.
We have had witnesses who have testified as to the seriousness of
this problem, one, that they think this is more serious than commu-
nism; others think that it is more serious than narcotics. In any
event, we do think the hearings have brought out that it is of more
sinister influence than most people have thought.
Today we will hear from postal and customs officials about their
problems in curtailing the distribution of pornography; we will also
hear from subpenaed witnesses who are allegedly engaged in the sale,
distribution, and manufacture of pornographic materials.
By cooperating with this subcommittee these witnesses can help
wipe out this hideous business that preys like a vulture upon many
of our innocent children.
Senator Langer, do you wish to make any statement before we call
our first witness?
Senator Langer. No, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, our associate counsel, will
conduct the examinations today. Mr. Bobo had another assignment
he had to begin this morning.
Mr. Chumbris, who is our first witness?
Mr. Chumbris. Samuel Roth.
Chairman Kefai^ver. Mr. Koth, will you come around, sir?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee
will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY 187
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL ROTH, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, will you please state your name and
address ?
Mr. Roth. My name is Samuel Rotli. My address is 110 Lafayette
Street, New York City.
Mr. Chumbris. And what is your occupation ?
Mr. Roth. I both write and publish books.
Mr. Chumbris. For how long a period of time have you been
writing and publishing books ^
Mr. Roth. About 38 years.
Mr. Chumbris. How long have you been at that location at 110
Lafayette Street ?
Mr. Roth. About 5 years.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please state the names of some of the
books that you publish ?
Mr. Roth. Before I do I have two very short statements I wish
to make to the committee that may save it a great deal of trouble and
time. May I ?
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Roth.
Mr. Roth. Thank you.
Chairman Kefauver. Providing you will talk a little bit louder.
Mr. Roth. During my brief appearance before this committee
last year I read a statement written by my attorney, Mr. Nicholas
Atlas.
Chairman Kefauver. What is his name?
Mr. Roth. Nicholas Atlas.
Chairman Kefauver. All right.
Mr. Roth. This statement apprised the committee that I was under
indictment in two courts, and it cited a United States Supreme Court
decision that in effect establishes the immunity of all evidence offered
by a witness before a congressional committee from use in any action
against him in anv other court.
Upon my concluding the reading of the statement. Senator Hen-
drickson accused me of pleading the fifth amendment.
I want it to be establislied in the record that this is not so. I believe
in the hfth amendment, but I know that it will be at least 50 years
before an honest man will be able to plead it without being misunder-
stood.
It is my stand before this committee that I have a right to the pro-
tection granted me under the above-mentioned United States Supreme
Court ruling, but that I will happily answer the questions of the com-
mittee if I am ordered to do so.
Chairman Kefauver. We are glad to have your statement, Mr.
Roth.
Mr. Roth. I have one more, and I wish to read that.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well, sir.
Mr. Roth. If this committee is limited to an inquiry into the causes
of juvenile delinquency in our midst, it is going far off its course in
questioning me. With the single exception of a book of instruction
for children, entitled "Tina and Jimmy Learn How They Were Born,"
written by my daughter for the instruction of her own children. I have
never published or advertised a book an adolescent would bother to
65203 — 55 13
188 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
read. I have never offered books to juveniles, and refused to serve
them whenever they were so identified in my mails.
Sensational as my advertising appears to the eye, it can hardly be of
interest to any but people sophisticated enough to resist my verbal
charm.
I don't think this committee has reached the heart of the problem
of juvenile delinquency. Father Egan only suggested it when he
testified before this committee on its first hearings that there is no
more smut in circulation today than in previous periods; it is just that
the juveniles of our time have no respect for the religion of their
elders. This goes to high office as well as to the home.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Roth ?
Mr. Roth. Nothing else. Thank you. I am now ready to answer
questions.
Chairman Kefauver. We are glad to have you make your state-
ments. They will, of course, be printed in the record with the rest of
your testimony.
Mr. Roth. Thank you.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, where were you born, and when?
Mr. Roth. I was born on November 17, 1894, in what is now Poland.
Mr. Chumbris. When did you come to this country '.
Mr. Roth. I came to this country in 1904.
Mr. Chumbris. Where did you first reside in tlie United States ?
Mr. Roth. I don't remember that. It was on Broome Street, 273
Broome Street.
Mr. Chumbris. New York City ?
Mr. Roth. New York City.
Mr. Chumbris. I understand you stated that you have been in this
business about 38 years?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Mr. Chumbris. In the publishing business?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
^Ir. Chumbris. You are connected with certain companies that
publislied such books as Gargantuan Books ; is that correct.
Mr. Roth. That is not correct. Gargantuan Books is a trade name
which I have used for distributing books for a period of 6 weeks.
Mr. Chumbris. And are there any other such books that you have
used as a trade name; would you please tell us?
Mr. Roth. I can't remember them, but there are at least 15.
Mr. Chumbris. And Seven Sirens Press ; is that one ?
Mr. Roth. No. Seven Sirens Press is the mother corporation of
all my activities.
Mr. Chumbris. How about Gargoyle Books?
Mr. Roth. That is a name.
Mr. Chumbris. Book Gems?
Mr. Roth. That is another name.
Mr. Chumbris. Falstaff Books?
Mr. Roth. That is another name.
IVIr. Chumbris. Paragon Books?
Mr. Roth. That, too.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you publish and edit Good Times?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. The American Aphrodite?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 189
Mr. Chumbris. Beautiful Sinners of New York?
Mr. EoTH. Yes, that is a past publication.
Mr, Chumbris. Lila and Colette and the Isles of Love?
Mr. Roth. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you distribute any nudist books?
Mr. EoTH. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please name those ?
Mr. RoTii. They are books whose names are really numbers. Their
general title is "N. U. S.," and they are very beautiful nudes which
come through the Customhouse and are sanctioned by the custom cen-
sorship.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you distribute "Nudist Colony" ?
Mr. Roth. Yes. That was one of the titles.
Mr. Chumbris. Adult Companion?
Mr. Roth. I don't — it is something that has to do with my busi-
ness, but I do not remember whether it is a book or — oh, yes. Of
course. It is a Treasury of Literature, edited by Tiffany Thayer.
Mr. Chumbris. Bedside Treasure'^
Mr. Roth. That's another book exactly like that.
Mr. Chumbris. Lady of the Sofa ?
Mr. Roth. That's by Crabyon. That's one of my books. It is a
great French classic.
Mr. Chumbris. Nudes?
Mr. Roth. That comes under N. U. S. I have never had the book
called Nudes, as I remember it.
Mr. Chumbris. Loves of the Orient ?
Mr. Roth. Yes ; that's a book.
Mr. Chumbris. Fiery French Nudes?
Mr. Roth. No. It is the way I would adertise the book of nudes,
but it is not the title of a book.
Mr. Chumbris. The Nude in the
Chairman Kefauver. Let's just see. Did you advertise the book
tliat way ?
Mr. Roth. That's right. I think I remember advertising a book
that way.
Mr. Chumbris. The Nude in the French Theatre?
Mr. Roth. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. Strange — —
Mr. Roth. That I should call your attention to it. The introduc-
tion to it was by Anatole France, w^ho was a Nobel prize winner,
Mr. Chumbris. Strange Loves?
Mr. Roth. Yes. That's a regular — it is a book published by one
or the other of the big publishers which I bought as a remainder.
Mr. Chumbris. Red Light Babe?
Mr. Roth. There you have got me. I don't remember that.
Mr. Chumbris. You don't remember that one ?
Mr. Roth. It sounds like a paper-covered book that I also bought
as a remainder.
Chairman Kefauver. What do vou mean "bought as a remainder,"
Mr. Roth?
Mr. Roth. Most of my business is buying regular publishers' books
that the publishers themselves — if publishers publish 5,000 books and
sold only 4,000, he sells the remainder of the 1,000 to me as a remainder,
and that makes it possible for me to make almost a publisher's profit.
190 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. Her Candle Burns Hot?
Mr. EoTH. That's tlte title of a book? If you say so, it would be
one of those paper-covered books, but it would be a very hannless book
if I sold it.
Mr. Chumbris. Carnival of Passion ?
Mr. EoTH. Yes ; that I remember.
Mr. Chumbris. Women of Plentipunda ?
Mr. Roth. Yes. Thafs an adaptation of an old book.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, referring to the Women of Plentipunda, is
that the same book which you described in this advertising, in these
Tvords :
Since adolescence represents an age, psychiatrists tell us, during which a
youngster's normal sexual curiosity reaches a high point—
Would it be fair to say that the kinds of materials you handle would
be of particular interest in this age group ?
Mr. Eoth. You begin by saying that you were reading something
of mine ; yon wind up with something that doesn't sound like me. Is
that a question you are asking me ?
Mr. Chumbris. This is one of your advertisements on these particu-
lar books— on this particular book The Women of Plentipunda.
Mr. Roth. Did you read me my advertisement of it?
Mv. Chumbris. Yes.
Mr. Roth. I didn't recognize it. Would you please read it again?
Mr. Chumbris. Is that the same book which you describe in this
advertising in these words, and I quote :
Since adolescence represents an age, psychiatrists tell us, during which a
youngster's normal sexual curiosity reaches a high points
would it be fair to say that the kinds of materials you handle would
be of particular interest in this age group ?
Mr. RoTPi. I would say not, because in the fii-st place the expression
"Plentipunda" is a purely Indian one— it belongs to the Indian, to
the religion of the Hindus.
In the second place, if you have a page, any page of that book, as
a matter of fact, it is a philosophically written book, a description of
what might be considered a Utopia, a'Utopia that people imagine for
themselves, but which is hardly described in that book in any lan-
guage that could even be of the "faintest interest to children.
Besides that, I can't be appealing to children because we advertise
only in the most adult magazines. In the first circular that we send
people we ask them for their age, and that is how our list is made up.
The cheaj:»est book we sell is $1.98, and that very rarely — usually it
is $2.98, and we can't expect children to pay us any prices like that ; and
we Avouldn't sell them these books under the circumstances.
We don't think that any — I don't think that any kind of a book
written in adult fashion can possibly appeal to children. If there is
anytliino- there that you think would appeal to children, I would
like to hear it.
Mr. Chumbris. I will hereby show you some advertising material
that reached the hands of a minor. This advertising material, one is
on the French Pornographer, Good Times, and The American Aphro-
dite, which return address is Book Gems, 110 Lafayette Street, which
vou testified are concerns with which you are connected.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 191
Will you please tell us, is this your type of advertising [handing
to Mr. Roth] ?
Mr. Roth. Yes. I have already conceded that my type of adver-
tising is very exciting, but anybody can see who has ever tried to read
one of those books — you take for instance the book The French Por-
nographer, you would find an adult under 30 who has not had a college
education would find it difficult to go beyond the third page, or even
beyond the first page.
It is a very fine book ; it is a translation from the French.
I deal almost exclusively in French classics. I could say that my
exciting style of advertising is a net that I spread among people who
have not had a chance for a very good education to get good books
into their homes, and I am prepared to prove that almost every book,
except those paper-covered books, which I do not consider harmful,
are within the realm of either contemporary or modern classics, except
those books, and most of the books that I advertise in my magazines
are books more than 2,000 years old, books that have been classics for
20 centuries.
Now, do you want me to tell you about this?
Chairman Kefatjv^r. Well, first, Mr. Roth
Mr. Roth, I don't want to take up too much time.
Chairman Kefauver. Is all of this material you have here, advertis-
ing which you have sent out?
Mr. Roth. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. Let it be made
Mr. Roth. Except for the sheet of written paper on top of it. The
front there seems to be a letter sent to the committee by somebody.
Mr. Chumbris. By the mother of a minor child.
Mr. RarH. That was really what I should have answered first.
Chairman Kefauver. It will be made an exhibit here and part of
the record.
(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 18." The advertise-
ment is on file with the subcommittee. The letter accompanying the
literature reads as follows:)
This enclosed filth was sent to a IS-year-old boy from Gargoyle Books, 110
Lafayette Street, New York 13, N. T. I think it's time something should be
done about this contribution to juvenile delinquency. I intend to follow this
through.
Anonymous.
Mr. Roth. I believe it got here by accident.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, you stated previously in answer to my
question that you made sure that you asked the ages of persons to
whom you sent your advertising and material.
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Mr, Chumbris. That particular letter did get to a minor; is that
correct ?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, do you have name lists ?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. How mau}^ names would you say are on your name
lists?
Mr. Roth. At present they come to about 400,000.
Mr. Chumbris. 400,000 ?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Where do you receive those name lists ?
192 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Roth. Mainly from publications?
Senator Langer. From what ?
Mr. Roth. Mainly from publications. I, for instance, advertise
by sending out lists like these to lawyers, doctors, dentists, bankers,
responsible business people. There is no way in which I can help it
if a child would grab his father's mail and put clown on it that he
is 80 years old. How would I know ?
Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. Roth, when you acquire these name lists
from these various publications, what inquiry do you make as to
whether the person is a minor or an adult ?
Mr. Roth. Well, the first circular we send them we ask them to
put down their age. I admit that they don't always do so; but we
judge by the fact — in the first place, I wish to make this very, very
emphatic — I don't believe this circular might excite the mind of an
older person to want the book, which is what it is intended to do, would
be of the fainest interest to a juvenile, because the words won't mean
anything to him ; they are not written in his language.
Senator Langer. What about the pictures ? Would they interest a
juvenile?
Mr. Roth. They might. But they are always very beautiful pic-
tures and within the law — entirely within the law.
I believe I shall have to comment on that as the questions are
asked me.
Chainnan KErAu\TER. Mr. Roth, just out of some of our corre-
spondence that we have received — and this is not all of it [exhibit-
ing]— here is a letter from Mrs. Shuler in Davenport, Iowa, saying
that this was received by her 8-year-old son — some of your advertis-
ing [handing to Mr. Roth].
Here is a letter from Schoharie, N. Y., from Catherine S. Rickard:
We received some objectionable literature, but from another company, Gargoyle
Books.
It says :
I am enclosin.::? the whole thing, and I was just fortunate to notice it before
the children got a hold of it.
Apparently this was addressed to her son. This is marked "Per-
sonal."
Mr. RoTir. Is the original envelope there?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes ; it seems to be there.
Mr. Roth. iNIay I see it ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes [handing to Mr. Roth] .
Here is one to L. Mann, Lake Junaluska, N. C. :
We have reason to believe this letter contains literature which should not
be allowed to go through the mails.
This was addressed to a child, age 17 :
We do not know where she is so cannot forward this. Two years ago she left
camp.
Anyway, it was sent to a young girl who was in camp [handing to
Mr. Roth].
Here is one to a 15-year-old boy. Postmaster in Erie, Pa., sent this.
This was sent to a 15-year-old boy, apparently.
Here is one from Burlington, Iowa, in which a mother says it was
sent to a juvenile — it does not give his age [handing to Mr. Roth].
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 193
Here is one that seems to have gotten to Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in
some way [handing to Mr. Eoth] .
Mrs. Garrett Wilson back in Ohio, who complained to her Congress-
man about her children getting this thing here [handing to Mr. Koth] .
Here is one from the president of a college at Columbus, Ohio,
saying literature like this came to him and to others at the college
[handing to Mr. Roth].
Here is one forwarded by a college president to Mrs. Oveta Hobby.
She. in turn, sent it to us [handing to Mr. Eoth] .
Mr. Roth, you say you make sure that none of your literature reaches
the young people. What do you say about all of this ?
]NIr. Roth. I would like to answer this.
Chairman Kefauver. You identify these as being literature that
you sent out ?
Mr. RoTii. Yes; these were all things that were sent out by my
office, under my general direction.
Chairman Kefauver. By your various corporations or publications,
or publishing companies?
Mr. Eoth. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. They M'ill all be made exhibits, together with
the accompanying letters, which speak for themselves.
(The information was marked "Exhibit No. 19." The advertise-
ments are on file with the subcommittee. The letters accompanying
the literature read as follows :)
We have reason to believe this letter contains literature which should not
be allowed to go through the mails. Miss M. is a (age 17) young girl who at-
tended our camp several years ago and we do not know where she is so cannot
forward this. Two years ago after she left camp, similar mail came for her,
unsealed, second class, which we did not forward when we found it contained
obscene material. Please investigate.
Anonymous.
Burlington, Iowa, November 20, 1953.
Postmaster General,
Washinyton, D. C:
Enclosed find literature that was mailed to my home. It was sent to my son
who tore it up. Why are such vile pictui-es permitted to be sent through the mail?
It is no wonder we have so many sex crimes and juvenile delinquency if this kind
of literature can be had. I think it is a disgrace to all decency and I am very
angry that my address is used for such a purpose. I think this firm should not
be permitted to use the mail and that they should not be permitted to print such
pictures. I hope that you can do something to stop them.
Sincerely yours,
Mrs. E. B.
Davenport, Iowa, Octohei- 28, 1958.
Postmaster General,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir : Enclosed please find an advertisement that was sent to my 18-year-
old son. He is now in college and this was forwarded but it is evident that these
are being sent to boys in preparatory schools.
We are always hearing that the Postal Department is run at a loss and rates
should be raised. I resent very much paying taxes to pay my postman to deliver
this type of thing. I have always understood that there was a law about the
type of literature that could be sent through the mail.
I should appreciate a statement from you as to the legality of this publication.
Very truly yours,
Mrs. C. S., Jr.
194 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Schoharie, N. Y., November 20, 1953.
Post Office Inspector,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Simon : Again we received some objectionable literature, but from
another company: Gargoyle Books, 110 Lafayette Street (8th floor). New York,
N. Y. I'm enclosing the whole thing, and I was just fortunate to notice it before
the children got a hold of it.
Is there any way we can find out where they obtain my husband's address?
Could such a practice be abolished — especially for such obscene material?
Thank you very much for your previous investigation, and for anything you
do this time.
Sincerely yours,
C. S. R.
CoRVALLis, Oreg., June 12, 1953.
Mrs. OvETA CtXLP Hobby :
It is, to the best of my knowledge, that you are in the position of doing what you
can for the welfare of our country. This is a problem that I wish could be solved.
I live in a college town and for years these obscene ads have been coming to our
students. I feel it is one of the worst demoralizing influences we have to bring
our Nation low.
I have no idea if or how anything can be done about it.
The envelopes are marked "Personal." The P.' O.'s are strewn with them.
Students are curious and make good bait.
Thank vou.
C. D.
Ck)LUMBUS, Ohio, October 9, 1953.
Mr. J. Edgar Hoover,
Director, FBI, Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Hoover : Isn't there some way to stop such filth as the enclosed, from
coming to decent people through the United States mail?
This is the worst that I have ever seen and one of our graduate students who
is helping out in the ofiice was so shocked at this awful stuff that she insisted I
write you at once about it.
Very truly yours,
G. S. R.
Mr. Roth. May I continue, please?
Chairman Kef AuvER. Yes; yon may continue.
Mr. Roth. Thank you.
You will notice that a few of these in which the original envelope is
offered, the addresses are not on stencils. This one [indicating] is not
on a stencil ; this one is not on a stencil ; and those are where the orig-
inal envelope has not been received ; they are probably names of people
who were addressed through the telephone directories, w^hich is why
their first name is "Dr. So-and-So." That covers the letter which
reached Mr. Hoover — J. Edgar Hoover — and it covers another letter
that I heard you say had been sent in by a doctor.
Chairman Kefauver, Apparently these are written out and copies
are made, and then the name and address is just cut off with a scissors
and pasted on.
Mr. Roth. Yes, I realize that. But I want to explain what this
means, this little thing [exhibiting]. It means that these people on
the list, which another company addressed for me, and in which I got
the best assurance you can possibly get from people you do business
with, that they were not going to minors; and these hajDpened to be
minors.
There is no point in my disputing that, when my real point is that
if they reached minors they couldn't possibly have any bad influence
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 195
on them, and they would disreo;ard them. They wouhl disregard
them because the language which my circulars are written in may
mean something to a Senator, may mean something to a mature adult,
but cannot mean anything to a boy or a girl.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr, lioth, do you mean to say that these pictures
that are present on this folder [exhibiting] will not excite a minor
if it gets into his hands? Won't you take a good look at those [hand-
ing to Mr. Roth] ?
]\Ir. Roth. When you put these pictures against the battery of
females that any child sees on any morning in a ride through the
subway, in a walk through a street, this is ridiculous as an argument
against my business. These are
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rotli, just a minute.
Mr, Roth. Forgive me, I shouldn't have said that at all. I am
sorry.
Chairman Kefauver. You have a pamphlet there with nude fe-
males in various positions, and some of them with nude males, ap-
parently. You are comparing those with what you see when you ride
on a subway ?
Mr, Roth, Yes. It is not unusual to see a man with his arm
around a woman wdio is naked up to here [indicating], and if the
child wants to play around with that kind of an image it can very well
imagine the rest of the body to be as naked as the upper part of it.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rotli, if this won't excite children •
Mr. Roth. I don't think so.
Chairman Kefauver, Children are more easily excited than adults.
Mr, Roth. Look at this. This is a cartoon, and it is a cartoon that
can hardly give anybody pleasure in looking at it,
Mr, Chumbris, Why do you spend so much money putting these
photos on that advertisement if it does not excite the men that you
hope to sell the books to ?
Mr, Roth. I beg your pardon ; I didn't say that. I said that I do
hope to excite the men into buying these good books.
Mr. Chumbris. Why doesn't it excite the children then ?
Mr. Roth. Because children's minds are different. They are prob-
ably better than the minds of mature people in that respect, A child
3'^ou have got to tell, to give a real image, or the child just disregards
it.
Chairman Kefauver, You think men, then, are more susceptible
to harm from pornography, or lewd pictures, than children,
Mr, Roth. I don't consider these lewd pictures by any means.
Chairman Kefauver, Wliatever they are, you think men are more
susce^Ttible to being affected by them than children are?
Mr. Roth. I tliink that is a matter of course. Their business is —
they have more business in the relations with women than children
have. Children don't know^ anything about it as yet, mostly.
There is nothing in these pictures that I would say was in any way
]ewd or indecent. And certainly nothing that would be new to chil-
dren whose eyes are wide open wherever they walk.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr, Roth, have you ever received a letter from a
minor with a high-school address on it ?
Mr. Roth. I know that we received such mail. My orders to the
people who — you know that I don't fill the orders, or open them ; but
196 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
my orders are strictly not to pay any attention to such an address.
And when money is enclosed, we return it, either by cash or by check.
1 think usually by check.
Mr. Chumbris. But you stated a while ago that you buy name lists
from other groups ; is that correct ?
Mr, Roth. No; I don't buy them; I rent them. I am not there
when they are addressed.
Mr. Chumbris. And the name lists that you buy or rent are some-
times on a name plate, just a small little plate; is that correct?
Mr. EoTH. I wouldn't say that that's always so. These happened
to be, I believe these were on these gum paper labels.
Mr. Chumbris. That's right. And otliers are on mineographed
sheets ; is that correct ?
Mr. Roth. They have every way of addressing them that I have.
Mr. Chumbris. Then when you Iniy or rent those name lists you do
not have the slightest idea whether the person from whom you pur-
chased that name list has a list of minors or adults, do you ?
Mr. Roth. I have the assurance that they are only adults ; be-
cause I do not like to spend postage on addressing children.
Mr. Chumbris. How did all of these exhibits — and we are just
giving you a portion of what came into our office — how did you
get
Mr. Roth. Have you any idea of how much mail that represents?
That i^robably represents 10 million pieces of mail, and you have got
about 20 or 30 pieces here, culled over a great many years. Why do
you think that is representative of my business ?
Chairman Kefalh'er. Mr. Roth. I think as to your point, the staff
tells me that we have literally a file cabinet full of your mail which has
been sent in from all over the country. I do not believe I have shown
you all of what we have here.
Here is another one sent to the Postmaster General. This was sent
to a 15-year-old boy, Gargoyle Books.
Now I want to ask you, Mr. Roth, you said that you put on these
things that they were not supposed to be sent back or ordered by
minors. I have not been able to find that on any piece of this litera-
ture.
Mr. Roth. I didn't get that last part.
Chairman Kefauver. You said that your instructions on these
pieces of advertising made it plain that minors could not order it, that
only adults would be permitted to order it from these pamphlets.
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman Kefau^-er. I have not been able to find that on any of
these pieces of literature.
Mr. Roth. Well, that's not something I know how to explain.
Chairman Kefauver. You are the boss of the business ?
]\Ir. Roth. That's right.
Chairman KEFAU^T>R. Why did you tell us a little while ago
Mr. Roth. They were not sent in, though.
Chairman Kefauver. But, ]Mr. Roth, I want to get this straight.
You said in the beginning in one of your statements that this was
not any business of this subcommittee, handling juvenile — what you
were doing was no business of this subcommittee, because, in the first
place, you did not send the advertisements to minors, and, in the
second place, it was definite that they were required to give their
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 197
age, and if it appeared that they were a minor, the orders would not
be fulfilled.
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman IvEFAtn^ER. Where on any of this literature do you ask
anyone's age [handing to Mr. Roth] ?
Mr. Roth. The first circular which I send to a person who has sent
in an order, say through a magazine or through the mails, probably
has never been sent in.
I wish to remind you again that these pieces are the results of
millions of pieces of mail that have gone out in the last few years.
Chairman KeTxYuv^er. Mr. Roth, we have, I think, a cross-section
of all the kinds you have sent out, and my staff tells me they find no
inquiry about the age on any of them.
Mr. Roth. That is my point, that these are never sent in ; these are
sent in to us, and the complaints come on those that come later.
That's the only way I can explain it. I am not making a perfect
explanation, because there is no perfect explanation.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, you have a briefcase there. Do
you find any in your briefcase that inquire the age of the person ?
Mr. Roth. I have none here. I have brought nothing with me.
Chairman Kefauver. You have no copy with you?
]\Ir. Roth. No. And I wish to say we are in the process of wind-
ing up our business. I don't know whether any of these circulars
show it, but the last circular we sent out we announced that that was
the third of the last six announcements we are making, and so we are
not using those lists any more.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, the staff using Eastern High School sta-
tionery in Washington, D. C, sent out letters to persons dealing in
publications such as yours, pictures, and not only did they receive a
reply from those people to whom the letters were directed, but within
a month, 5 or 6 companies dealing in the type of material in which
3^ou deal, and pictures, bondage pictures, and fetish pictures, and
nudes, and so forth, reached our office although no letter was directed
to those companies.
Now, how would you explain how your office got answers from
people to w^hom letters were not directed ?
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, you have not made clear what
you are trying to get at.
Mr. Chumbris. I have made a statement, and I want him to explain
the statement.
Chairman Kefauver. What he means is that on high-school sta-
tionery inquiries have been sent to other companies. Shortly after
they are sent to other companies, your companies write these people
who made the inquiry, the children who made the inquiries.
Mr. Roth. I can answer that fully and very briefly.
Chairman Kefauver. In other words, you exchange lists?
Mr. Roth. We do not.
Chairman Kefauver. That puts you on notice that these inquiries
were from children, but shortly after the inquiries are made of other
companies, your companies get the list and send them literature.
Mr. Roth. Oh, that happens; yes. That can happen.
In the first place, I want to say, w-hen you talk about companies like
mine, I want to correct that. There isn't a company like mine. My
business is unique, there is nothing like it in the world. No. 1.
2g§ JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
No. 2, we have consistently in all our experience refused to rent 9ut
our lists, except to legitimate enterprises, like insurance companies,
Life, Esquire, Time, all the big magazines.
We have been offered as much as $30 a thousand, which is twice as
much as the regular rate, for people, such as some of your other wit-
nesses here, to use our lists. We have never, never, allowed anyone
but a legitimate enterprise to use our lists, and that we have kept
down to a certain number.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, you just stated that there is no other
business in the countrv like yours.
Mr. Roth. That's right. .
Mr. Chumbris. You stated a while ago that you are connected with
Gargoyle Sales Corp.
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Mv. Chumbris. I hereby show you an exhibit of advertisement of
girls being whipped, or what is known as fetish and bondage pictures,
which is a type of photograph and material sent out by another com-
pany here in New i'ork City. I would like for you to look at that
[handing to witness].
Chairman Kefauver. Will you identify that as being some ot the
literature that your company has sent out ?
Mr. Roth. Oh, no. That's an entirely different company; it has
nothing to do with me.
Mr. Chumbris. You just stated that Gargoyle Sales
Mr. Roth. I had a company called Gargoyle Books. This is Gar-
goyle Sales Corp. It hasn't the remotest connection with me. And
I would like to see all the others that you think are like my business
[returning to Mr. Chumbris] .
Mr. Chumbris. I read you the name of Gargoyle Sales Corp., and
you said it was your company.
Mr. Roth. One thing to answer as honestly as I could, and hearing
"Gargoyle," which is a part of the name — I never heard of this
company.
Mr. Chumbris. This particular company is not one of your com-
panies?
Mr. Roth. I never heard of the name before.
Mr. Chumbris. But the others that we have shown you. Good Times,
and so forth. The American
Mr. Roth. These are my circulars and my business. I stand for
them, and I do not believe that anyone under 25 could possibly be
influenced ; and if they were influenced, it would be for the good.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't think anyone under 25 could be
influenced for the bad from these ?
Mr. Roth. What would be bad ? The worst they could do is buy the
book, and the books are
Chairman KEFAU^^2R. Let me get this again. Wliat did you say
about 25 , a minute ago, that you did not believe anyone under 25 or over
25 would be influenced for the bad ?
Mr. Roth. I believe that very few people — it's very difficult to
talk in a generality like under 25, over 25 — very few people who
haven't had a certain amount of experience would be attracted by this
sophisticated language with which we sell this.
We don't — I haven't, for instance, read that circular, I never saw
it, and I never saw the name before, but I would be willing to bet
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 199
that that would prove my case. This is how they sell, and this is how
I sell. , ^
I sell only fine books. The biggest seller on my list m the last 4
years has been a book called "My sister and I" by Frederick Weacher,
and that is a philosophical book. I have been able to get that in
almost 100,000 homes, and that is a triumph. I don't expect any medals
for it, but I don't expect to be called a publisher of pornographic
books.
Chairman Kefauver. Of course the thing is not the reading ma-
terial on these things so much as the pictures that you have sent around.
Mr. EoTH. I disagree with you, Mr. Kefauver; I really do not
agree with that.
Chairman Kefauver. If pictures do not make any difference, why
do you put so many pictures on them ?
Mr. Roth. I am a salesman. I remember once going into a haber-
dashery shop and asking to buy a shirt I saw in the window, and what
Vv'as shown me didn't look at all like it.
I said, "Is that the same shirt I saw in the window ?"
The man said, "Yes, Mister, but I spend a lot of money on the lights
in my window, and I can't expect an ordinary shirt to look like that."
If I do it with good books, I don't think that could be held against
me.
Mr. Chumbris. ]\Ir. Roth, you have not yet fully explained your
role in avoiding sending that particular type of advertisement ta
youtli.
Mr. Roth. To young people, you mean ?
Mr. Chumbris. In view of the fact that you buy, rent, exchange, or
what have you, mailing lists with other concerns.
Mr. Roth. But I have just told you that I don't.
Mr. Chumbris. What is that?
Mr. Roth. I have just told you that I do not rent my lists to anyone
except people like Life, Time, Esquire; these people rent my lists 2
or 3 times a year because mine are adult buyers and can subscribe to a
magazine.
Mr. Chumbris. Don't you rent lists from a party in Brooklyn ?
Mr. Roth. "From," but not "to." That's the difference.
Mr. Chumbris. That is what I am referring to. If you are renting
from a party, and you do not make a clear and direct analysis of the
ages of that name list, then j^our material could get to juveniles, could
it not?
Mr. Roth. I believe that in that respect my business could be rein-
forced a little bit by greater care. I admit that ; but I am always given
the assurance that the people who bought these things spent, at least
$1.98, and that they were mature people. That's the best I can do at
present.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, now, how many lists do you buy, how
many thousands of names on them ?
Mr. Roth. Well, now, a company in Brooklyn was mentioned from
whom I bought approximately 180,000 names, which dwindled down
to about 70,000.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you like to give his name, please, for the
record ?
Mr. Roth. I don't know whether I should. I don't know whether I
shouldn't, because I was assured that these were names of people who
200 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY '^
bought pinups. Now, pinups, I do not consider them as obscene mat-
ter. I consider them a little like the things I myself use.
Chairman Kefauver. In other words, you have a pmup mailing
list to send your literature?
Mr. KoTH. That's right ; yes.
Chairman Ivefauver. Mr. Chumbris, you know the name of the man
in Brooklyn ; you give it to us.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Vallon; is that right?
Mr. RoTii. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. Will you give the full name and address?
Mr. Roth. I have his full name and his address in my books, but I
don't remember it. I think, if you have difficulty finding his name m
the Brooklyn directory, his business goes under the name of Mapleton
Books, Mapleton something-or-other.
Chairman Kefauver. Anyway, Mr. Vallon has a pmup list of about
180,000 names to which he sends pinup materials ?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. You rented his list to send out this literature ?
Mr. Roth. That list I bought. I didn't rent it. But we dwindled
it down to about 70,000.
Chairman Kefauver. Suppose we question the other list that you
bought? .
Mr. Roth. That's the only list that I have ever bought m my lite.
Chairman Kefauver. What other lists have you rented?
Mr Roth. I have rented lists from a regular list house called Book
Buyers Lists. That's what it is called. That's on 369 Broadway.
They are a very legitimate and fine enterprise.
Chairman Kefauver. What do you do to get the names of the
juveniles out of them ? It would seem that when you see a high school
and when you see the account down in North Carolina, you would
know that that was a juvenile.
Mr. Roth. We would know that. I would mention this, although
I do not hold it against these people, because they have a very heavy
business, but I do not mail out, they mail out for me. I pay for the
postage— no, no, forgive me. I do mail that out, but it is very diffi-
enlt to— if I make a mailing, say, of 10,000, it is very difficult to go
through and try to catch that.
I should say that we are supported by the feeling that we are not
selling them anything bad, that's all. But we have had an under-
standing in advance that we do not contain the names of juveniles.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, do you think it would be bad and
deleterious for the children for you to mail this stuff to the children?
Mr. Roth. It would be very bad business for me, I can tell you.
Chairman Kefauver. I mean, it would be bad for them, too, would
it not ?
Mr. Roth. I don't think they would pay any attention to it. I give
you my word of honor.
I have brought up a family. I have grandchildren, and my grand-
children occasionally come to see me. They look at these things and
they drop them.
I can't see — an adult would be interested — but I cannot see how
children would be interested.
Chairman Kefau\'ER. And you think an adult would pay more at-
tention to them than children would?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 201
Mr Roth. They do pay attention, or I wouldn't be in business.
Senator Langer. Mr. Chairman, I call attention to the fact that
a few moments ago the witness stated that he had sent out 10 million.
It is curious where he got all the 10 million names.
Chairman Kefauver. Is that the number you sent out— m how long
a period of time? „ , ^ , • j
Mr. Roth. No, I meant that these were culled from a long period
of my business, and that in that period I have sent out over 10 million
^ That's a guess, by the way, the 10 million. It could be 20 million
and it might be only 5. I think it would be around 10 million, because
mv instincts in such matters are good.
Chairman Kefauver. Let's follow Senator Langer s question.
Where did you get a mailing list for 10 million^
Mr. Roth. I haven't a mailing list for 10 million, but I have, say,
a mailing list for only 10,000 in 10 years I could send it out 10 mil-
lion times— I mean, I could send out to 10 million people. It wasn't
intended to be a single mailing.
I don't think anybody in the United States since the Literary
Digest died, has sent out as many as 10 million pieces of mail.
Senator Langer. A moment ago you said you had 400,000 names, did
you not, Mr. Witness ?
Mr. Roth. That's right. That's very far from 10 million.
Chairman Kefauver. What mailing permit do you have to send
these through the mails ?
Mr. Roth. I have the regular Pitney Bowes machine permit.
Chairman Kefauver. Is that second-class 'I
Mr, Roth. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Second-class permit?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
May I mention one more thing?
Chairman Kefauver. Have you had any trouble with the Post
Office Department ?
Mr. Roth. Oh, lots of trouble.
We have a sign in our door that has been there ever since I can
remember, maybe 18 years. It has been on different doors, of course,
and the sign says "No books sold on the premises." No book goes out
which hasn't got on it the post office's permission to open it and
examine it.
Mr. CiiuMBRis. A moment ago you said you had plenty of trouble
with the Post Office Department, but you always worked it out. That
is not exactly true, is it ?
Mr. Roth. Yes ; the post office accuses me of having sent an obscene
book through the mails, such as Beautiful Sinners of New York, and
it is put before a jury, and the jury comes back a few minutes later
and sees nothing wrong with it. I have straightened it out with the
post office.
Mr. Chumbris. Have you ever been convicted of a violation of a
post office regulation?
Mr. Roth. Yes; for selling Ulysses, by James Joyce, which is now
must reading in all colleges and high schools. Not all of them, but
enough of them.
Mr. Chumbris. When was that?
Mr. Roth. I think 1929.
202 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. Aiid then, in 1930, you were also convicted of viola-
tions ?
Mr. Roth. Whenever I was convicted of a violation of a book that
1 sent through the mails I believed it was safe to send it. There are
differences of opinion on that, yes; usually I go to jail, and then the
laws confirm my being right.
Mr. Chumbris. In 1936, would you please explain whether you had
any difficulty with the law ?
Mr. Roth. I had a great deal of difficulty. I went to prison that
year.
Mr. Chumbris. Explain it, please.
Mr. Roth. It involved about seven books which the post office con-
sidered obscene.
Mr. Chumbris. Did you go to prison for that ?
Mr. Roth. That's right ; I just told you that.
Chairman Kefauver. How long did you serve ?
Mr. Roth. I served a 3-year sentence.
Mr. Chumbris. In 1941, did you have any trouble with the law?
Mr. Roth. Yes; you have the record there. You tell me.
Mr. Chumbris. April 14, 1941, you were found guilty of violating
probation, is that correct; and your probation was extended to Decem-
ber 16, 1946 ; is that correct ?
Mr. Roth. Yes. May I say something now ? The district attorney
in charge of that case opened the case against me — I was really not
convicted there. The judge dismissed it. He opened the case by say-
ing, "This defendant is not being accused of selling any book which
cannot be found in any bookstore in the United States. We just don't
like a man on parole to sell these books."
Mr. Chumbris. Your statement that you had difficulty with the
Post Office Department, but you always worked it out, wasn't exactly
true, was it?
Mr. Roth. Well, I worked it out even when I went to prison. You
must try it sometime.
Mr. Chumbris. That gives a different connotation than "working
it out."
Mr. Roth. I mean that eventually the laws almost always justified
what I had done. For instance, there was a time when you could go
to prison for just a picture like this. Now you find — I would like to
read you a list of the magazines that publish nudes almost all the time.
Chairman Kefauver. Before you get to that list — you have quite a
record here of arrests, and being in court, and you and your wife to-
gether, usually.
Mr. Rom. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. You have your wife in all of these matters?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. She has been convicted, too; is that correct?
Mr.RoTH. The only thing I can tell you is that we were right.
Chairman Kefau^t^r. Sit down, Mr. Roth.
On December 16, apparently you and your wife got convicted for
2 years, and she got a suspended sentence; is that right?
"Slv. Roth. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, you have this entire history
here. Do you want to go over it, or do you want to show it to Mr.
Roth ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 203
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, on February 27, 1928, you pleaded guilty
to mailing obscene literature, and were fined $500 and given 6 months'
suspended sentence; is that correct?
Mr. Roth. That is correct. Would you like me to explain it?
Mr. Chumbris. Let me go through this.
Chairman Kefauver. Give him a right to explain. You plead
guilty ?
Mr. RoTii. I plead guilty after a conference with Judge Knox. I
pointed out the book was a Hindu classic, and it should be permitted
to be sold at the price which I sold it for, which was $35 a copy.
Chairman Kefauver. What did you plead guilty for?
Mr. Roth. On the advice of counsel — very bad advice,
Mr. Chumbris. On October 19, 1928, sentenced to serve 3 months
on Welfare Island for possessing and selling obscene books.
Mr. Roth. That is correct. It was a book which I have since sold
freely and through the post office for a great many years.
Mr. Chumbris. Did you plead guilty, or were you convicted ?
Mr. Roth. I was convicted of that in special sessions.
Mr. Chumbris. November 27, 1929, arrested for possession and sale
of obscene literature ; case dismissed. Was that correct ?
Mr. Roth. I don't see why I have to argue with that. Go on.
Mr. Chumbris. January 28, 1930, sentenced to 6 months in Federal
Detention House for violation of probation ; is that correct ?
Mr. Roth, Yes; that is correct. I didn't consider it a violation of
probation, and I think the judge who kept the case — Judge Knox —
who kept the case running for 3 years, didn't either, except he finally
decided it was better to let me serve a sentence. I didn't serve 6
months. He changed it to 2 months at the last minute.
Mr. Chumbris. July 7, 1930, sentenced to serve 60 days for the sale
and possession of obscene books. Where was that ?
Mr. Roth. I know where that was. That was Philadelphia, and
that was for protecting Ulysses so my grandchildren and your grand-
children will be able to read that book.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you plead guilty?
Mr. Roth. I did plead guilty. Mr. Kefauver, I was threatened by
the man who ruled Philadelphia if I dared stand trial on that book,
he would see that I got at least 3 years. I have witnesses to that.
Chairman Kefauver. You pled guilty ?
Mr. Roth. I had to plead guilty.
Mr. Chumbris. December 16, 1936, sentenced to 3 years in Lewisburg
Penitentiary for mailing obscene literature,
Mr. Roth. You covered that.
Mr. Chumbris. April 14, 1941, found guilty of violating probation;
probation extended to December 16, 1946.
Mr. Roth. I have already covered that.
Mr. Chumbris. Then recently, last year, you had some difficulty with
the State authorities on obscene literature; is that correct?
Mr. Roth. That's right. Have you on the record what happened
on that?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes; I think last week the matter was thrown out
of court for illegal search and seizure ; is that correct ?
Mr. Roth. Not only that, but because they picked up 70,000 books
on my premises and didn't find a single bad one there, and there were
none, and they are all being returned to me.
G52G3— 55 14
204 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. Was there any official ruling to that effect?
Mr. Roth. No; but I have no doubt that the official ruling will
be made some day, maybe today.
Mr, Chumbris. As a matter of fact, they didn't even go into the
contents of the book; they only went into the question of whether
the search was legal or illegal ?
Mr. Roth. That is true, but I do know they went into the books.
Chairman Kefauver. The Post Office Department issued fraudu-
lent orders against trade styles used by you back in 1942?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. What does that mean ?
Mr. Roth. "Fraud'' in the language of the post office means almost
anything except fraud, but it meant in my case that I had described
books as very sexy, which they didn't think sexy at all. That is the
whole thing.
Chairman Kefauver. You overstated the sex angle in your books ?
Mr. Roth. That is it. I admitted that, but I thought I had a right
to since it got good books into the hands of people who otherwise
wouldn't have gotten them.
Chairman Kefauvt.r. I don't understand, Mr. Roth, why it is that
you have a great number of corporations. I have never seen such
a list. Did you operate through one at one time and another one
at another time ? Why is that ?
Mr. Roth. It is for reasons that anyone in the publishing busi-
ness can explain. I am not the only such publisher. I sell philosoph-
ical books — and for every kind I have, I have a different name.
Chairman Kefauver. For each book you have a different corpora-
tion i
Mr. Roth. Every kind of book.
Chairman Kefauver. Isn't the real idea that if one gets knocked
off by the postal authorities, you can continue to operate your other
corporations ^
Mr. Roth. That's right. Not only that. If there is any implica-
tion in that that I do that to hide myself, that isn't true. I do not
change my address, 110 Lafayette Street.
Chairman Kefauver. You have one corporation publishing 5 or 6
different types of books, and if one was found in violation of postal
operations, they might stop your whole business?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. So you have all these various corporations?
Mr. Roth. Not only for that.
Chairman Kefauver. It enables you to send out literature in dif-
ferent names to prospective purchasers ?
Mr. Roth. My prospective purchasers know when they come from
tlie 8th floor at 110 Lafayette Street, that we are the people from
whom they bought in the past.
Cliairman KEFAu^'ER. Do you think the children know that?
Mr. Roth. I don't think the children care. I don't think it is part
of that thing. I think you pay too much attention to that, and there-
fore, do not pay attention to things that are more vital.
Chairman Kefauver. That is what this committee is organized
for — to see what the children are getting.
For some reason, Mr. Roth, there has been a very sharp increase,
over 110 percent in the last 10 years of sex crimes among juveniles.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 205
You see about it in tlie papers, and we had always been taught, at
least we thought, that there was something to the fact that children
the atmosphere, environment, and the kind of things they read affected
them. Psychiatrists and parents have told us, and have written us
that the smutty literature and pamphlets we see here that you are
sending out, do not have a very wholesome effect on young people.
Don't you think that is true ?
Mr. EoTH. No. I don't believe any circulars like this.
Chairman Kefauver. Why is it you have been so careful — or rather
you think you have been careful not to send this to young people 'i
Mr. Roth. The only reason why I have been careful mostly, I do
not believe this can possibly touch the psychology of a juvenile, but
mostly I have been careful because it would be very bad business to
send out circulars and get no returns. You can only get returns
from mature people. I am quite candid in telling you that. I think
that the idea that the present juvenile delinquency comes of por-
nographic literature, I think it slightly wrong. I was a child myself
in the public schools of New York.
Chairman IvEFAUATiR. You think that is overrated ?
Mr. Roth. I think it is very much overrated.
Chairman Kefauver. You naturally think it is overrated since
that is your business ?
Mr. Roth. Yes; I admit I could be prejudiced by that.
Chairman Ivefauver. You would be reluctant to admit that your
business was doing very much to adversely affect juveniles, but you
are in the business.
Mr. RoTii. I am in the business, and occasionally circulars of mine
might reach juveniles, but I do not think that I could have any possible
effect on that, and I do not believe that the very worst kinds of these
things can be avoided, because they are underground. They do not
send out mail the way I do. They reach children the way they
reach children when I was a child. They come to you in front of
school, and offer you an obscene pamphlet.
Chairman Kefauver. I don't want to labor the point. You don't
think it is too bad for children, your type of literature, although you
claimed at first you have taken unusual precaution about young-
people getting it. You wouldn't put your judgment up against that
of J. Edgar Hoover, would you ?
Mr. Roth. I don't know about that. If Mr. Hoover made a study
of this, he would know more than I do.
Chairman Kefauver. If Mr. Hoover said that it was degrading
and increased criminal tendencies, and was one of the real evil influ-
ences leading to juvenile delincjuency, you would rather have his judg-
ment than yours ?
Mr. Roth. Yes, but I don't believe he had tliese circulars in mind.
Chairman Kefauver. He talked about this kind of literature, too.
I read his statement into the record the first day here.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Roth, what is your gross income from your op-
erations in these books that we are discussing here this morning?
Mr. Roth. It is around $260,000, $270,000 a year.
Mr. Chumbris. What is the net profit that you receive from that
gross income ?
Mr. Roth. I can put it to you this way : I get a salary of $10,000 a
year, my wife gets a salary of $3,000 a year, and at the end of the year,
206 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
we have never yet had so much money left that I could withdraw and
call it a profit. My books are open. We do, I think, very well, be-
cause our ap])etites are not too great.
Mr. Chumbris. I didn't hear that last statement.
Mr. Roth. I said we do pretty well, living as we do in our com-
munity, and I am satisfied with what I do.
Mr. Chumbris. Of the $260,000 to $270,000 gross, you say that you
receive $10,000 a year and your wife receive $3,000 salary ?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Mr. Chumbris. And you have very little to share as profit ?
Mr. Roth. At the end of the year, yes. We have never done it yet.
Mr. Chumbris. How many people do you employ ?
Mr. Roth. I would say we employ an average of about 15 people.
Mr. Chumbris. Fifteen people ?
Mr. Roth. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. At 110 Lafayette Street?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Mr. Chumbris. ^Vliat are their duties mostly ?
Mr. Roth, They are writers, they are file clerks, they are typists,
they are editors. I believe that about covers it. Shipping clerks, of
course.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any persons who print any of these
so-called 2-by-4 booklets?
Mr. RoTii, We have never printed any 2 by 4 booklets.
Mr. Chumbris. Have you or any of your employees made any of the
cartoons that go into these 2-by-4 Jbooklets?
Mr. Roth. No.
Chairman Kefauver. How much is your subscription to all your
books and magazines each year — about $400,000 ?
]Mr. Roth. I have been asked the gross income. The gross income
is around $260,000, $270,000.
Chairman Kefaitv'er. Do you have agents out on the road ?
Mr. Roth. No.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you send all these books by mail ?
JVIr. Roth. We solicit by mail and fill orders by them.
Chairman KEFAU^^ER. You don't send by mail?
Mr. Roth. None.
Chairman Kefauver. Have you ever sent by car or Railway
Express ?
Mr. Roth. Never.
Chairman Kefauver. Always by mail?
Mr. Roth. Railway Express, we mail occasionally ; when a man tells
us he has no post office near him, but there is a Railway Express office,
then we make hiin pay the extra cartage.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else?
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have a complete list of the names and ad-
dresses of your employees?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please furnish them to the subcom-
mittee ?
Mr. Roth. I will be very happy to.
Chairman Kefauver. For the record, when will you send that in,
Mr. Roth?
Mr. Roth. If you want, I will send that in this afternoon.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 207
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else?
Mr. Eoth, do you try to get contracts with people so you can have
publishers write' their life and experiences about them ?
Mr. Eoth. No. We are asked to, and we do not have anythnig to
do with that.
Chairman Kefauver. Were you president ot beven birens Fress,
Inc. ?
Mr. Roth. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you explain what this seems to be on
the letterhead of your corporation 'I -, . ^ ^
Mr. Roth. Yes; I will be very glad to. At the end ot the hrst
Jelke trial, I contacted the woman known as Pat Ward, and oli'ered
her this contract for a book. If you meant this kind of a contract,
we offer it to people whose books miffht interest us. This contract
was never signed by Miss Ward, or, I know, by anybody else.
Chairman Kefau\ter. If you are dealing in abstracts, and heroes
over in Europe, and metaphysical characters, why do you want to
get a contract with Pat Ward right after the first Jelke trial?
Mr. Roth. I believe a very fine book can be made on that. By the
way, there is one in the making anyway.
Chairman Kefauver. You didn't get the contract ?
Mr. Roth. No.
Chairman Kefauver. She turned you down ?
Mr. Roth. She wanted too much money.
Chairman Kefauver. What is that ?
Mr. Roth. She wanted too much money.
Chairman Kefauver. Any way, you tried to negotiate for a
contract ?
Mr. Roth. Yes ; the book was to have been written by a very fine
writer and was to have been a very fine book.
Chairman Kefauver. Why would you like to have a book about
a person who had just been in a notorious trial?
Mr. Roth. I believe the New Testament rotates around just that
kind of a woman.
Chairman Kefau\tsr. In this contract, you were going to do the
dictating, and she was going to attach the name of Sandra to the
l)ook?
Mr. Roth. I don't remember that as a detail, but it you say so,
that is true.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you propose contracts like this to other
people who claim notoriety in these kinds of trials ?
I^Ir. Roth. I believe that if a book like that has been published by
me. and it is possible, that it has usually been planned in my office,
and if it hasn't, it has usually been brought to me, but whether it is
planned or brought, or whether I write it or it is written by the person
himself, or herself, it has to be a good book before I publish it.
Chairman Kefauver. Paragraph 6 forces her to accept anything
you write under the contract you proposed to her.
Mr. Roth. May I see that ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes ; that is your contract. You can see it.
That is what she balked at ? She would not agree to use her name
at anything you wrote?
Mr. Roth. Forgive me now. I remember that was just as big a
stumbling point as the money. It wasn't Pat Ward. It was her
208 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
mother wlio objected violently to this paragraph. I asked her why.
She said, "I don't want any book published in which my daughter is
looked upon as a whore."
I said, "The emphasis has been made so heavily, I don't see how you
can object."
If it was $5,000, it would have been all right.
Chairman KErAU\T2R. You offered her $5,000?
Mr. Roth. No.
Chairman Kefauver. You offered a big percentage?
Mr. Roth. Yes. I had to do that to make sure it would be a good
book.
Chairman Kefauver. The fact that she was a juvenile, would that
have any effect?
Mr. Roth. Yes, it had consideration. I believe a book should
appear that would give her a chance for living properly. I believe
a book like that is in order now. I believe that the courts have
completely
Chairman Kefaua'er. You don't think that a book that you had in
mind there would be interesting for children?
Mr. Roth. I don't think so; no — not the kind of book we would
publish.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't think that would offend high-
school children?
Mr. Roth. I don't think children were interested in the trial.
Chairman Kefau\'er. We will ask you to make this contract which
you proposed a part of the record. Let it be filed as an exhibit.
Mr. Roth. May I say something?
Chairman Kefauver. Sure.
Mr. Roth. You have said this about several of the items that passed
here, '\^'^len one has a lawyer at one's side, the lawyer usually says
he objects and gives reasons. I have no means of knowing anything.
If you think this should be a part of the record, I have no reason
why it shouldn't be.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, I think so, because it shows the
kind of contracts that 3'ou try to get, even with minors.
Mr. Roth. May I point out for the record that the reason why
paragraph 6 is there is tliat I had no means of laiowing that Miss
Ward would put things into that book that might be obscene, that
might be considered objectionable, and since I have to sell through
the mails, I have to make absolutely certain that it will be the kind
of a book that I sponsor. I can only sponsor a book that goes through
the mails.
Chairman Kefauver. How much did you offer, and how much did
she want ?
Mr. Roth. I think I offered $1,000, and she wanted $5,000.
Chairman Kefauver. Plus the royalties?
Mr. Roth. Yes, royalties would depend on sales. She would have
been entitled to more money.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you a naturalized citizen?
Mr. Roth. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauaer. When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Roth. I am not a naturalized citizen. Forgive me. I became
a citizen on my father's papers, and that must have been when my
father became a citizen in 1915. On the other hand, in 1940, or 1939,
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 209
I went to tlie Immip:ration Department and demanded a certificate,
certifying that I was a citizen on my father's papers, and I have that
certificate.
Chairman Kefauver. You think yoii became a citizen on your
father's papers in 1915, but in 1939 you applied for citizenship?
Mr. KoTH. Yes. Some question was raised about it while I was in
prison.
Chairman Kefauver. And you w^ere issued
Mr. RoTii. A certificate of citizenship.
Chairman Kefauver. What year ?
Mr. Roth. Either 1939 or 1940— probably 1939.
Chairman Kefauver. In the district court in the Federal Building
in New York ?
Mr. Roth. No, I was issued that on Columbus Avenue— the Immi-
gration Building. I think it is 16th Street.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you list these sentences and the time you
served on the application for citizenship?
Mr. Roth. Yes; all these things w^ere discussed.
Chairman Kefauver. Were they listed on your application?
Mr. Roth. I listed on the application whatever the application
asked for.
Chairman Kefauver. All of them ?
Mr. Roth, Yes. I don't know what it was that was asked then.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else ?
Senator Langer. Does the staff have a copy of the application he
signed ?
Mr. Chumbris. You made one comparison that I would like for
you to explain. You said that a purchase of a shirt is comparable
to beautiful nudes. What did you have in mind when you made
that statement ?
Mr. Roth. I never made such a statement.
Chairman Kefauver. You said if you went to buy a shirt, you
might not be interested in going into the store, but if you saw an
attractive shirt out in the window, you might buy it, and that is the
reason you put the pictures of the nudes on your advertising.
Mr. Roth. That is self-explanatory. If I put pictures around a
description of a book
Chairman Kefauver. You don't w^ant to compare a shirt to a nude,
do you ?
Mr. Roth. As a means of attracting attention — it wasn't a shirt
that was being discussed, it was the lights that lit up the shirt in
the window. I believe a nude has the same function in my circular.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Roth, we appreciate your coming here
and talking very freely. You have cooperated in answering our
questions. I think I must say that I know of no one that we have
been in touch with who doesn't feel that the kind of slime that you
have been sending through the mails is highly deleterious to our
young people, and damaging to their morals, and part of the whole
picture that we have today of the breakdown among a percentage
of our children ; that is the opinion of most of the experts that we
have had, and I think 1 should say to you, Mr. Roth, also, that of
all the people engaged in this business, we have had many, many
more complaints — letters from parents, people interested in the wel-
fare of the children — criticizing what you have been doing, than we
210 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
have of any other person who publishes and distributes this stuff.
Personally, I think it is very reprehensible.
Thank you, Mr. Koth.
Mr. Roth. May I say something?
Chairman Kefauver, Yes.
Senator Langp:k. The subcommittee agrees entirely in what you
have just said about this stuff.
Chairman Kefauver. It may be within the law, but it has been on
the border of the law. Sometimes it has been legal and sometimes
illegal, but that isn't entirely the question here.
You have something to say ?
Mr. Roth. I believe the people who have criticized me are wrong.
I believe you are a great deal more wrong than they are, because you
are sitting in judgment on me, and I believe that I will someday
within the very near future convince you that you are wrong.
Cliairman Keeauver. It will take a good deal of convincing.
Mr. Roth. I will do it.
Cliairman Kefauver. Thank you, Mr. Roth.
Dr. Henry.
TESTIMONY OF DK. GEOEGE W. HENEY, PEOFESSOE OF CLINICAL
PSYCHIATEY, COENELL UNIVEESITY COLLEGE OF MEDICINE
Chairman Ivefauver. Dr. Henry, you are going to give expert testi-
mony. You may mention names. Do you solemnly swear the testi-
mony you will give will be the whole truth, so help you God ?
Dr. Henry. I do.
Chairman KEFAu^^ER. During the course of our investigation in this
field, I have been shocked that there are people who engage in the
business of teaching sex deviation to young people, and people who
make a profit therefrom. Because of inadequacy of our present Fed-
eral rules, we are calling witnesses who will testify as to the cause and
result of this menace.
Dr. Henry, do you live at 184 Eldridge Street, New York City, and
you are a psychiatrist and nationally known expert in psychosexual
maladjustments. We know of your reputation and your standing.
Mr. Vince Gaughan, who is a special counsel of our subcommittee,
whose home is in Buffalo, has been helping us here, and doing a good
job for the subcommittee in New York, will ask you some questions.
Mr. GAUGTiAisr. Doctor, will you please, for the record, give us your
name and address ?
Dr. Henry. Dr. George W. Henry, and my home address is Green-
wich, Conn.
Mr. Gaughan. xVnd for the record. Doctor, would you state the pro-
fession in which you are engaged ?
Dr. Henry. I am a psychiatrist.
Mr. Gaughan. How long have you practiced psychiatry. Doctor?
Dr. Henry. Since 1916.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, would you please give us your educational
background ?
Dr. Henry. I was graduated from Johns Hopkins Medical School
in 1916. I have been on the staff of the New York Hospital since
1917, and I am associate professor of clinical psychiatry at the Cornell
University Medical College.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 211
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, are you presently engaged in the private
practice of medicine and psychiatry?
Dr. Hexry. I am.
Mr. Gaughan. Are you also presently associated with any medical
group ?
Dr. Henry. Yes. I am a fellow of the American Medical Associ-
ation, a fellow of the American Psychiatric Association; I am past
president of the New York Psychiatric Society, and I am a member
of a number of other societies. I am a diplomate in psychiatry.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, could you tell us, is there a growing tendency
today toward sex deviations ?
Dr. Henry. That is my impression.
Mr. Gaughan. From your experience can you tell us what age
group is most susceptible to deviation ?
Dr. Henry. Adolescence.
Mr. Gaughan. Can such deviation from the normal manifest it-
self in a number of forms?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Would you elaborate on that — the forms that devia-
tion can take ?
Dr. Henry. Well, that involves quite a big problem. I will try to
state it briefly.
Chairman Kefauver. Doctor, just tell us — what we want to know
about here is the problem of juvenile delinquency, and the effect of
this material that we have been seeing here, as to whether it is harm-
ful or not, and what the committee and public can do, and w^hat you
feel you are familiar wnth, to help this situation and problem, to
give our young people a better chance.
Dr. Henry. I have heard the testimony given this morning, and if
you want a simple answer I would say that what I heard, what I
learned from what is published, I would say it is harmful to adoles-
cents.
Mr. Gaughan. Are people born wdth such perversions bred in them,
or must be taught and educated along this line ?
Dr. Henry. I could scarely imagine that anyone was born with
these tendencies. There may be certain potentialities that can be
trained, but I don't believe anybody would arrive at these various
deviations unless they had some training.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, would you tell us what is a fetish?
Dr. Henry. A fetish is usually some object, material, or substance
which becomes the chief source of sexual stimulus for a particular
person.
Mr. Gaughan. In your medical textbook entitled "All the Sexes'^
you state in your chapter on fetishes that high heel fetish, and women's
lingerie fetish are two of the more common types of fetishes.
Dr. Henry. That is correct, but any kind of clothing, any part of
the body might become attractive or might become a fetish for a
particular person.
Mr. Gaughan. Used as a substitute for the normal sex ?
Dr. Henry. That is right. It can become and does become as excit-
ing to them as any other part of the body, or the body, to what is
called a normal person.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, is there such a thing as leather and rubber
fetish ?
212 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Dr. Henry. Yes; that is true.
Mr. Gaughan. Is there also a fetish known as bondage, in which
people are trussed up '?
Chairman Kefauver. What do you mean by leather and rubber
fetish?
Dr. Henry. There are various devices that are manufactured for
enclosing parts of the body, and that are used for the purpose of
exciting people sexually.
Mr. Gaughan. In other words, certain leather types of shoes and
boots and so on can be used as a substitute for a sexual outlet by per-
sons who are trained along that line, who so enjoy it ?
Dr. Hexry. That is correct. Almost anything can become a fetish,
even a violin.
Mr. Gaughan. Is there a type of sexual deviation that is known as
bondage where a person is trussed up with ropes and chains?
Dr. Henry. Yes ; that is fairly common.
Chairman Kefauver. You say bondage is fairly common?
Dr. Henry. Fairly common in this particular group, that is the
group of sexual deviates.
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us more about that bondage being fairly
common.
Dr. Henry. Among those who are familiar with this variety of
sexual deviation, it is a matter of common knowledge to them. It is
not common knowledge to the general public.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean they like to see someone who is
bound up ?
Dr. Henry. Yes ; they do.
Chairman Kefauver. Pictures of them?
Dr. Henry. Some of them do.
Mr. Gaughan. And some of them might be bound up by themselves ?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Is the act of spanking a part of the flagellation
technique ?
Dr. Henry. Yes ; one of the milder forms.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean whipping?
Dr. Henry. Yes ; whipping in any form, even to the extent of draw-
ing blood.
Chairman Kefauver. You say it is a minor form. What are the
more violent forms ?
Dr. Hexry. They use actual whips, straps, sticks.
Mr. Gaughan. Sometimes they use the hands, sometimes whips,
sometimes chains, and hairbrushes?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Is there a sex deviation wherein two females are
able to hnd an erotic satisfaction by inflicting pain and injury upon
each other?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Wliat form of deviation does that come under?
Dr. Henry. Sadism and masochism.
Mr. Gaughan. Dr. Henry, I am going to come down by you, be-
cause my questions are of such a form that I have to ask you to iden-
tify a number of pictures that I am going to produce as an exhibit
here today.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 213
Dr. Henry, I show you a booklet entitled "Cartoons and Model
Parade" published by one Irving Klaw, of 212 East 14th Street, in
New York City. I specihcally call your attention to the movie ottered
hy said Klaw as advertised on pa<ie o of this publication, called
"Negligee Fight." I note that the heading reads that this 16-milli-
meter movie shows the terrific battle that ensues when both girls claim
a black negligee, and, Doctor, I ask you, is this a form of the sadism or
masochistic type of perversion to which we w^ere just referring when
I asked you if two females can get erotic pleasure from such carry-
ing on ?
Dr. Henry. That is true.
Mr. Gaughan. I also call to your attention page 3 of this same
publication, to pictures entitled, "Chris Strips for Bed." The mention
there is the fact that she wears — it specifically mentions she wears
6-inch high heel, patent leather shoes. It mentions how she goes
through this sensuous art of disrobing, and along with that I direct
your attention to page 6 of this same publication, and on page 6 we
find "Lounging Around in Lingerie," in which the man who offers
this publication says he will sell this particular movie for $8, and he
notes particularly the fact that the models wear 6-inch high heel,
patent leather shoes.
Doctor, I want you to note the various other pictures with this 6-inch
shoe business being graphically brought out by the photographers
and the author of this publication, and I ask you. Doctor, is it a fair
statement to say that these are pictures- — these pictures are put therein
for the purpose of exciting people to take part in the fetish that is
known as the high-heel fetish? Is that a fair statement?
Dr. Henry. That could be true. Such heels are sexually exciting,
but they are also part of a picture, any part of which or all of which
is sexually exciting.
Mr. Gaughan. The whole picture you consider sexually exciting?
Dr. Henry. That is right.
Mr. Gaughan. There are a number of things in the picture besides
the fetish we are particularly concerned with here that you find sex-
ually exciting?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. On page T of this publication I direct your attention
specifically to a series of photographs called, "New Specially Posed,"
in which it says there are 44 — the heading says there are 44 different
tound-and-gagged photos, 8 being spanked, offered to you at 40 cents
apiece. It also mentions the fact that there are three other different
types of spanking photographs at 40 cents apiece, and the owner of
this organization says he also offers 71 different high-heel and lingerie
photos of models wearing 6-inch high-heel shoes, bras, and panties, at
25 cents.
Would you look at those photographs and tell the chairman of the
committee whether you, in your opinion, believe that is a form of
bondage, the type of deviation wherein the people get a sexual thrill
or pleasure of being bound up or binding somebody else up, and
inflicting a form of torture through these ropes and chains that you
see in all these pictures ?
Dr. Henry. The answer to all your questions is "Yes."
Mr. Gaughan. I now give you this book as a whole. I ask you to
go through this booklet. Doctor, and I ask you specifically, can you
214 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
see any purpose for this publication other tlian the one purpose to
cause erotic stimuli hj showing acts of sexual perversion? First, I
asked Dr. Henry to leaf through the book, and then asked him to tell
us, after perusing the contents of this book, to tell us whether he can
find any other purpose than publishing such a booklet for erotic stimuli
for the people who will read it, and dwell upon it and study it.
Is there any desirable reason other than for erotic stimuli?
Dr. Henry. No, the sole purpose is to stimulate people erotically in
an abnormal way.
Mr. Gaughan. That is the only purpose of this booklet, in your
expert opinion, Doctor?
Dr. Henry. That is correct.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, I ask you, could children be sexually per-
verted by looking at, by studying, and by dwelling upon photos of this
nature and the contents of this book ?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Doctor, is it a very unwholesome influence,
this sort of thing ?
Dr. Henry. It is.
Chairman Kefauver. In your opinion the increase in sex crimes,
deviations that we are having — ^does that increase result in part at least
from the reading and looking at magazines and pictures of this kind
by children ?
Dr. Henry. T would think that was an important factor in the
increase.
Chairman Kefauaer. You think it is an important factor ?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaugijan. Doctor, would violence and murder be a natural
outgrowth of such pervei'sions that we have discussed here this morn-
ing with you ?
Dr. Henry. It might be.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean this bondage and whipping, and
things of that sort ?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Would you say it is a fair statement, that suicide,
murder, and psychosis is the end result of this type of trash?
Dr. Henry. In some instances : yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, I show you some clippings mounted on a
board from the Miami Daily Xews, dated Tuesday, August 31, 1954;
the contents of these articles. Doctor, specifically note the fact that one
17-year-old boy, Kenneth Grimm, was found hanging in an inverted
position from a stick or board suspended between the forks of two
trees, and trussed up in a fashion whereby his legs and arms are tied
behind him, and a rope is thrown around his neck so that he strangles
himself. He strangles himself by the position in which he has been
forced. Doctor, I ask you is it your opinion, from perusing this article,
from looking at the picture, would you say that this is the end result
of a sex crime ? Does this impress you as the type of thing that can
happen as the result of bondage — this fetish we have been discussing
this morning ?
Dr. Henry. Yes ; it is an end result, a kind of result.
Chairman Kefauver. Let the picture and plaque be made part of
the record.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 215
Mr. Gaughan. "Gables boy found hanged. Weird death baffles
cops." It also states "Father discovers body in trees."
I would like to announce at this ])oint, the father of this boy is with
us this morning, and has been so kind as to consent to testify following
Dr. Henry's testimony.
Chairman Kefauver, All right.
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, do you have any further comment that you
would like to make on the subject that we have been discussing here —
the subject under examination — and do you have any recommendation?-,
that you, as an expert, a nationally renowned expert in the field, would
like to make to the subconmiittee ^
Dr. Hekry. I think I should clarify this sex problem a little bit so
that innocent people would not be involved in it.
For instance, there is a tendency to associate such acts of violence
with a homosexual — what is called the homosexual. The facts are
that the homosexual is no more prone to violence than the heterosexual
or the normal. If we were to divide humans roughly into four groups,
we would call them heterosexual, biosexual, homosexual, and Narcis-
sistic, and the groups that we have been talking about this morning
belong primarily to the Xarcissistic, more specially to people whom
we call exhibitionists, or peeping individuals. These publications
cater to people who are psychosexnally immature, emotionally innna-
ture, and who get their major satisfaction out of looking at such dis-
plays. It has little to do with other fields of psychopathology that is
commonly associated with such acts.
The only other thing that occurs to me is that I firmly believe that
the majority of people are so constituted and live in environments
such that they will grow up to be reasonably normal in their sexual
adjustment.
There is, however, quite a large proportion of the population who
are susceptible to training, training such as may be obtained from these
publications, and whether or not they arrive at a point of violence is
perhaps an academic matter in view of the seriousness of the other
problem that no one can tell ahead of time who is going to arrive at
that goal once they have been exposed to these publications.
Furthermore, there are all degrees of sadism and masochism which
enter into human relations, and which seldom get into the newspapers.
Chainnan Kefauver. Dr. Henry, murder — even crimes involving
theft, beatings, most all kinds of crimes, can, to some extent, result
from maladjustments which children might get from the kind of litera-
ture and pictures and whatnot they see?
Dr Henry. That is correct. A good many of the sexually malad-
justed are not primarily interested in sex relations, but in the thrill
or the danger which is associated wnth the sexual act.
Chairman Kefauver. In other words, these pictures, these bondage
pictures and things of that sort are important in this matter, too ?
Dr. Henry. They are important.
Chairman Kefauver. Will one of you show this gargoyle thing, 478
Madison Avenue, to Dr. Henry ?
Is tliat typical of the bondage pictui'es you were talking about ?
Dr. Henry. Yes. There is more of the whipping in this. You can
see the Avhip in several of the pictures. Whipping means just what it
says. They actually whip these people, sometimes until they bleed.
216 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
There are individuals who are so impelled to abuse others that they
will keep on until they kill them.
Chairman Kefaua^r. Until they kill them ?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. I think there are places in that picture that
will show bondage pictures.
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. If that was sent through the mail, I am sure
the inspectors would stop that.
Dr. Henry. Sometimes the greatest thrill is experienced at the time
that somebody is dying.
Chairman Kefauver. Bv the person dving or the person causins: the
death? ' ^ ^ 1
Dr. Henry. The person causing the death. There are also people
who get their greatest thrill by being severely beaten.
Chairman Kefauater. You mean being the recipients of the beating?
Dr. Henry. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Doctor, you saw how these pictures that Mr.
Roth had — you heard him express his expert opinion based upon many
years in the business. What did you think of that? What do you
think of his philosophy ?
Dr. Henry. I don't agree with it at all.
Chairman Kefauver. You think this stuff he is sending out, these
pamphlets that you saw here, are a bad influence and degrading to even
grownups, let alone young people ''(
Dr. Henry. Yes. I think there is a confusion between children and
adolescence in a good deal of the testimony. When they use the word
"children" they often mean "adolescents," and everyone knows that the
adolescent is most sexually excitable, and has the least legitimate op-
l)ortunity to find an outlet for that sexual excitability. As a result of
that they find every conceivable means of finding an outlet, including
what was shown this morning.
It is an error also to assume that if you sell something to an adult
that it doesn't get to an adolescent. A great many of these so-called
adults are really still adolescents, and feel most at home with actual
adolescents.
More than that, some of them are primarily interested in introducing
adolescents into abnormal practices.
Chairman Kefauver. So that his idea that the effect of this kind of
stuff on adults might be stimulating and what not, but it would not
have any effect upon adolescents is just without medical foundation ?
Dr. Henry. I would think it would be just the opposite. It would
be more exciting to the adolescent.
Chairman Kefauver. An.ything else?
Mr. Gaughan. Doctor, I might ask you, as the father of five chil-
dren, and as many parents around the Nation have wondered from
time to time, if we have read about the senseless killing by teen-
agers during these past few years, would you say it is a fair state-
ment that many of these killings are the direct result of some
sort of an erotic stimuli that has been given to these teen-agers, these
children, which result in their taking part in the gang warfare and
death and violence and torture, and so on ?
Dr. Henry. Yes ; I would expect that entered into a large propor-
tion of such killings.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 217
Mr. Gaughan. a lar^je proportion?
Dr. Henry. Yes. Tliat is related to tlie fundamental principle
that a person who eno;ao:es in such killings is an insecure person, and
a g:reat deal of his insecurity comes from the fact that he is poorly
adjusted, usually, as a male. In order to bolster up his e*i;o, he has
to do something bold to give him the feeling that he is a man. If,
in addition, he has been trained to sadistic ways of bolstering his ego,,
so much the worse.
Mr. Gaughan. That is all I have.
Chairman Kefauver. Dr. Henry, we appreciate very much your
testimony, and I want to say while, as just a layman, and I am sure
I might speak for the press in this regard, too, we appreciate the
fact that you are one of the most eminent and highly thought of,
most experienced psychiatrist in the whole United States, or the
world, and you have spoken to us in such plain language that we can
all understand. It was a little bit unusual.
Thank you very much, sir.
Dr. Henry. Well, I have had the opinion, after many years of
experience, that if you can't tell something in plain English, you
don't understand it yourself.
Chairman Kefauver. We appreciate having you with us.
Mr. Xorman Thomas, we will be glad if you will come down.
STATEMENT OF NORMAN THOMAS, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Thomas, yesterday I was advised that you had written the
subcommittee a letter expressing your interest in the hearing, and
the staff of the subcommittee contacted you and asked if you were
willing to come down and give your views and ideas to the subcom-
mittee.
I am not familiar with your various points of view, but you are
an eminent and great American, for whom the American people of
all political faiths have esteem and respect.
Mr. Thomas. Especially since I quit running for office.
Chairman Kefauver. So we are honored that you have taken out
time to come and give us the benefit of your counsel, and through
this subcommittee, speak to the American people on anything you have
to say about the problem of juvenile delinquency or pornography,
which we are considering here.
Senator Danger is an old friend of yours. I know he has some-
thing to say at this time.
Senator Danger. I can only say that I do not know any man in this
country whom I respect more highly.
Mr. Thomas. I used to be willing to compromise for more votes and
less respect.
Senator Danger. We are very happy that you wrote the subcom-
mittee, and we are happy you are here.
Mr. Thomas. Thank you very much.
Chairman Kefauver. Tell us anything you want to.
Mr. Thomas, While I appreciate an opportunity to come, I am a
little embarrassed, because, at short notice, I had no expectation of
appearing before the committee. I wrote the letter on only one sub-
ject and that subject was the only subject on which I have any right
to speak.
218 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
I am not, like many of your witnesses, an expert as a psychiatrist
or as a teacher, or someone who has come in close contact with these
problems. But I have, for a good deal of my life, spent a good deal of
my time on civil-lib-erties issues, and I am a pretty stanch supporter
of the first amendment, which I think has suffered some damage by
Congress and certain other agencies of Government.
I am, however, not at all impressed by the degree to which defend-
ers of certain kinds of comic books, and even of pornogTaphy, pure and
simple, want to press the first amendment. I do not think the first
amendment gives any guaranty to men to seduce the innocent and to
exploit the kind of unformed mind and unformed emotions of chil-
dren and adolescents.
I think there is a great deal of dangerous nonsense in this appeal
to the first amendment and to freedom of the press when one is dealing
with the kind of thing which I have just heard testimony about from
the preceding witness.
I do not believe that in order to protect the fundamental liberties
of the press we have to turn our children, who are, in a sense, the ward
of all our society, over to the kind of visual exploitation of base emo-
tion, and the arousal of base emotion to which, of course, this litera-
ture, this pornographic literature, these films and cards and all the
rest are directed.
I understand that the evil has grown greatly. A great many years
ago I was a secretary of a local school board. It was here in East
Harlem, in Manhattan, and I know we had a great deal of trouble
with deliberate circulation for money of pornographic postal cards
in those days.
The situation has become much worse, I understand. It is an out-
rage to freedom to say there is any guaranty of freedom for this kind
of thing.
Parents have the first responsibility, certainly, for protecting their
children, but even the most careful parent cannot protect his children
against the floods of certain kinds of comic books and certain kinds
of pornographic literature now circulated; and there are a good many
parents who have neither the knowledge or capacity to protect them,
and society has to step in.
I do not believe that society can advantageously, or perhaps consti-
tutionally in the United States, step in by prepublication censorship.
That, I think is open to doubt in the light of history as a method of
dealing with any of these problems.
I will be perfectly frank and express considerable doubt of the use-
fulness of the voluntary censorship set up by the comic book pub-
lishers.
There is a certain danger in giving a parent's seal of approval to
rather bad stuff, even if it is within the code, as if it had authoritative
blessing.
I should go along with the people who are opposed to censorship.
But it seems to me that it ought to be possible to find ways of out-
right prohibition of the circulation, by any device whatever, of the
kind of pornographic stuff you have been discussing and the kind of
comic books that Dr. Wertham discussed.
I suppose there are difficulties of definition, but I think the job can
be done. I am not at all impressed by some of the arguments I have
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY 219
heard by spokesmen for the industry, and from honest defenders
of civil liberty who, I think, in this case are misguided.
I am not impressed by the kinds of arguments I hear. I am not at
all impressed with the notion that you should deal with pornography
and a certain type of comic book as you might deal with the discussion
of ideals which would lead to sedition. You are dealing with an
entirely different realm of affairs.
An idea, even a wrong idea, a bad idea in economics, in politics,
and so on, can be met in the market place by a true idea, and history, at
least in America, bears out this statement— that, on the whole, a true
idea wins a victory. I haven't won often enough to say it always
does, but on the whole, I believe that error in this field is better counter-
acted by truth, than when error goes out— rather, than when truth
calls on a policeman's club in the matter.
The appeal that is then suggested by an idea is wholly different
from the kind of thing about which you have just had testimony. To
the unformed life of a child, the perversion of what, in itself, is a life-
giving sexual instinct is a terrible thing for society, and does not fall
in the class of ideas which was defended as able to win their own
victories.
I am not at all impressed by the argument that I have heard that
it is time to wait until you have proved clear and immediate danger
by absolute and precise proof that a particular crime or a particular
bit of outrageous juvenile delinquency has been caused by a par-
ticular comic book or pornographic publication. This is absurd.
There is a good deal of talk to the effect that those of us who
believe that something has to be done are alleging that all juvenile
delinquency is due to these publications. I never hear that allega-
tion made "by anyone except by people who want to knock down a
strawman. I don't think that is the main cause of juvenile delin-
quency, but so serious is this delinquency, everything is dangerous.
What we are concerned with is not primarily, or chiefly, as I see
it, the stopping of particular crimes that reach police court. It is
the whole effect upon the minds of the young who are going to sliape
the future, and that is not subject to these precise tests of clear and
immediate danger that have been alleged.
I have heard some of the psychiatric testimony — not here, but
elsewhere — which apologizes for this. I have not been too much
impressed. But I do believe there is immense value in modern psy-
chiatry and in its research. I doubt if right and wrong is determined
solely by psychiatric majorities one way or another, and I doubt if
the commonsense of the communities is altogether gainsaid by the
testimony of men who tell me, as one man did tell me, that the most
horrible comics, exalting sadism and teaching crime, have no effect
at all. That I just do not believe.
I would like awfully well, as a rule, to know whether the men who
thus testified have gotten any fees from any of the self-interested
parties. They have a right to get such fees. Everybody has a right
to hire help, but I confess, without wishing to get into any row with
any tobacco companies, that I would not be as much impressed by
a doctor who is hired by a great tobacco company to prove there
was no danger of lung cancer as I would by a more disinterested
witness.
65263—55 15
220 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
I am very much interested to know who pays what in the matter
of some of this testimony. . ■,■
I have been very much impressed, and depressed, to listen to pretty
good peo])le who argue very hotly, mostly against censorship, to
which I also am opposed, but ap])arently in some cases agamst any
kind of legislative action.
They allege one of two things. They have to. Either that this—
after all, these horror prints do not do any harm, or else that you
cannot help it that they don't do enough harm to run a certain risk.
AVhat troubles me is that in almost every case you get a confusion
of two ideas. I have here what was given me. I think it is called
"Facts Kit." Tt was o;iven to me by the Comic Book Publishers
Association. Right through their literature there runs confusion
of ideas. On the one hand they boast they are now pure, having set
up their own authority ; and on'the other hand they argue they didn't
need to, because it did no harm, that psychiatrists said what they were
doing was all right.
They cannot have it both ways ; in this connection, I am very skepti-
cal of what is revealed by the confusion.
I am also extraordinarily unsympathetic with a notion that our
society is so dull and so bound by rather extreme logic, that there
is no way to prevent this horror literature, these horror pictures,
with all their etfect, which may not be extended to censorship or
prohibition of Mother Goose, or Shakespeare, or, in another field,
"Crime and Punishment."
I imagine that some of the artists that you have been discussing
could make Mother Goose a pretty bad business with certain kinds
of drawings. But I think it is all nonsense to argue that because
there is silence in Jack the Giant Killer, and because one of the
heroes of the Mother Goose rhyme was going to throw a man down-
stairs for not saying his prayers, that therefore there is no way of
restricting the horror and pornographic literature that comes flood-
ing out to the immense profit of the publishers, without prohibiting
Mother Goose, or something of the sort.
I think the common sense American knows the difference. I think
the difference could be written into laws that could pass the test of
constitutionality. I am not a psychiatrist or a lawyer and cannot help
you in framing those laws. I think the job could be done. I think
it is defeatist to say that you cannot do it.
I think, moreover, that the interpretation of law depends in part,
as we know, by the development of public opinion. The Chief Justice
of the United" States, himself, held that changes in public opinion, in
the way we think about things, made the doctrine of Separate but
EoumI not tenable now.
1 think in these tunes, with this terrible increase of juvenile delin-
quency, with this immensely profitably flood of pornography, using
techniques never before available to the seducers of the innocent, I
think it is nonsense to say that we are so bound by a very extreme inter-
pretation of the freedom of the press that we cannot act.
We have acted in other cases, as I know. I think the post office, in
some cases, has been given too much power not to accept for mailing
certain things — religious books and political books — that are said to
involve dissension. If that is constitutional, certainly the kind of
legislation that I think you could shape would be constitutional.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
221
The verv etfort is itself educational. It will open the eyes of lots
of people— parents. It will oive them authority and help m enforcing
the law. .
I heard a defense of this sort of business, this pornography, m the
following terms— that some authority, not named, had said that a
diseased mind mioht be more adversely afi'ected by the mere presence
of a person of the opposite sex than by any of this literature. That is
a most shocking argument to advance. We are not talking about
already diseased minds so far gone that they might be rumed by that
which 'is normal and proper in life. We are talking about people who
have tendencies that can be led into disease. That is a very different
matter.
In other words, gentlemen, I apologize for a not too carefully worked
out speech. 1 did not know I was coming until I had no time to do
any writing, but I do want to put myself on record, just because I have
so diligently tried to serve civil liberty, as believmg that it is not only
possible for you to frame legislation that will curb the enormous evils
without abridging any desirable liberty ; but it is necessary, for free-
dom, itself, is besmirched, if freedom comes to the tune of $500 million
a year, and society and government is utterly powerless.
Chairman Kefauver. We thank you very much for an enlightening,
forcible statement. It will be very helpful to our subcommittee, and,
I am sure, to everyone who reads and hears this. It was fine of you to
write us a letter, and we would like to make your letter part of the
record.
AVhile we iunen't discussed some remedies that have been suggested
by you in any detail, everybody knows that no citizen has been more
vigorous in the defense of civil liberties and freedom of the press and
speech than you ; and your concern about this problem of pornography
and horror crime books, and how you think it should be dealt with, is
certainly very valuable to us.
Mr. Thomas. May I add that I have been, on a number of occasions,
a member of a jury. I believe you can trust the American jury to
deal with nonsense and justice. They would act in ways that would
not create a danger of interference with the true freedom of speech
or the press. I know it will take some doing, and I don't altogether
envy you the task of doing it, but I think it can and must be done.
Senator I^^nger. I know of no man who has had more experience
in his personal life than has Norman Thomas. He is a real true
American citizen, and I am certainly proud he came here and testified
before this subcommittee. It is a great tribute to this subcommittee
to have Norman Thomas come here and testify before it.
Mr. Thomas. Thank 3^011 very much. I am not seeking any particu-
lar applause ; I am terribly interested in it.
The first time I found out how serious it could be was a great many
years ago, and I think it has grown worse.
Chairman Kefafver. Thank you very much.
Mr. Thomas. Thank you.
222 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(The letter dated May 23, 1955, from Norman Thomas and ad-
dressed to Senator Kefauver is as follows:)
New York, N. Y., May 23, 1955.
Hon. BSTES Kefauver,
Senate Office Building, Washington 25, D. C.
Dear Senator KEFAmnER : Like every good citizen, I am deeply concerned for
the success of tlae hearings you are holding concerning juvenile delinquency and
related matters like the effect of so-called comic books on the young.
I am no expert at all in the field in which you are making inquiry. I hare,
however, long been active in behalf of civil liberties and I want to put on rec-
ord with you my belief — in contrast to some champions of civil liberties — that
government has" not only a right but a duty to consider legislative controls of
the publication and circulation of comic books in order to prevent the "seduc-
tion of the innocent" by the terrible mixture of sex sensationalism, if not out-
right pornography, sadism, education in crime, and sheer horror to which cer-
tain comic books have treated us.
It is, of course, fantastic to argue in behalf of any doctrine of freedom of
speech or the press, that men have an inalienable right to corrupt the young
and to make themselves rich in the process. The argument for a do-nothing
policy by the Federal Government can only be supported on one or both of two
lines. First, that these vicious comic books do no real harm ; and, second, that
Government is so clumsy an instrument that it can find no way to protect chil-
dren without running the risk of assuming dictatorial powers over the press.
I think both arguments are erroneous.
The case against the horror comics is not merely or chiefly the degree they may
contribute to juvenile delinquency. It is the effect of them on the minds of those
for whose education as good citizens society has responsibility. I am aware that
supposedly expert psychological and psychiatric testimony has been brought
forward to support the contention that these comics have no bad effect. This
is a position that cannot be taken logically unless one is willing to advance the
extraordinary proposition that there is no case at all for moral education or
the inculcating of a lot of good literature. It is the experience of the race that
children's minds are very impressionable for good or evil, particularly by the
picture method which makes so strong an appeal to them. Good and evil are not
determined by majority votes of psychiatrists and I should question the value
of the vote of the psychiatrist who appears or ever has appeared for a fee paid
by the publishers of comic books. They have a right to hire psychiatrists and
psychiatrists have a right to be hired. But I would not give full weight to the
evidence ofl'ered under these circumstances any more than I should give full
weight to the testimony of a doctor on cancer who was in the employ of one
of the great tobacco companies. I think the preponderance of evidence is
entirely on the side of those who believe that these books are a contributory,
though bv no means the sole cause of juvenile delinquency.
I do not, however, accept as valid the attempt of certain advocates of civil
liberty to claim that the Government can only interfere if at all on the basis
of proof of clear and immediate danger of specific contribution of a comic
book to overt juvenile delinquency. The right of free speech on political and
economic matters up to a point of clear and immediate danger is one thing.
The right of free speech or free press to corrupt the young is another.
The principal argument of advocates of civil liberties has been directed against
censorship. I myself would doubt the efficacy or possibly the constitutionality
of a law providing for a governmental precensorship of comic books. I am not
favorably impressed by the private censorship suddenly set up by the comic book
publishers here in New York. For one thing, the seal of approval carries too
much weight in the mind of the young for inferior stuff. I should, however,
think it possible to deal fairly well with the evil by invoking the Government's
right to protect children by setting up in law a prohibition of the circulation of
horror comics, generally defined in the law, among children. The enforcement
of the law, as now of law against pornography, should be left to district attorneys
and juries. It should be hoiked the district attorneys would act more vigilantly
than sometimes in the case of pornographic postal cards circulated among school
children. It is also, I think, important in any effort either to turn on the
light for arousing public opinion or to help in the enforcement of law that each
comic book should bear the name of the responsible publisher, and author or
authors.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 223
I am aware that the wording of a definition of the kind of horror comics the
sale and circulation of which to children should be prohibited is not easy. But
I refuse to believe that it is impossible to make such a definition which will not
apply to the proper publication and circulation of serious books like Crime and
Punishment, for instance. I do not believe that we cannot pass a law dealing
with comic books that will not apply to Shakespeare and Mother Goose. I am
rather irritated by the argument to the contrary.
In this whole field it is important to distinguish between the kind of truth
in religious, economic, and social theories which can make its own way in the
market place of ideas and the kind of decency which can make its own way
in the minds of children against these horror books. Pornography and sadism
bypass the area of intellectual discussion or conflict. This is particularly true
when one is dealing with the impressionable minds of children. Milton's argu-
ment against censorship was never meant by him to operate in this field of
pornography and sadism. One does not need to be a psychiatrist to recognize
the force of the difference.
I am addressing this to you personally because you are in charge of the in-
vestigation but I should be very willing to have it put on the record if you are
recording written statements as well as oral.
Sincerely yours,
Norman Thomas.
Chairman Kefau\t.r. We will stand in recess until 15' minutes to 2.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 1 : 45
p.m.)
AFTERXOOX SESSIOX
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Clarence Grimm.
Mr. Grimm, will you come around, sir ?
Mr. Grimm, will you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
this subcommittee will be the whole truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Grimm. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF CLARENCE GRIMM, CORAL GABLES, FLA.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Grimm, before counsel, Mr. Gaughan,
asks you some questions, I want you to say that as chairman of this
subcommittee I know the embarrassment and the distaste that you
have in coming here to talk again, or to have anything to say about
the tragic happening to your son on August 20 of last year. I know
that you would rather not say anything about it; however, in the
judgment of this subcommittee your testimony may be of some benefit
in bringing to the attention of the people and to law enforcement
agencies and to legislative bodies the kind of situation that might be
of some help in preventing some other father's son from having a sim-
ilar tragic experience.
It is on that basis that we have asked you to come today to testify.
We appreciate your cooperation. We know that you would like to
do anything you could to try to see that the kind of mania of wliich your
son was the victim is removed from our society.
Vie know that your son was an outstanding young man, but we
feel that by your telling us about it, it may enable us to help get at
the problem. So, we do a])preciate your cooperation.
Mr. Gaughan, you may proceed.
Mr. Gaughax. Mr. Chairman, I would like at the outset to state
that in our investigations of this terrible tragedy, I myself was
singularly impressed by the type of young man tliat met this tragic
end. Pie was an Eagle Scout of Coral Gables, Fla. ; a B-plus student
in his school work, and a model young man in every sense of the word.
224 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
So, Mr. Grimm, for the record, would you please state your name,
your full name? .
Mr. Grimm. My name is Clarence Grnnm.
Mr. GAUGHAN.'And your address, sir?
Mr. Grimm. 5028 Maggiore, Coral Gables, Fla.
Mr. Gaughan. How are you employed, Mr. Grimm ?
Mr. Grimm. I am self-employed. I am an electrical contractor.
Mr Gaughan. Mr. Grimm, are you acquainted with the purposes of
this investigation, of this subcommittee, into juvenile delinquency and
pornography, specifically, at this hearing?
Mr. Grimm. Yes, sir. . i , i -u-i.
Mr. Gaughan. Mr. Grimm, I am going to hand you an exhibit
which has already been introduced into evidence. With your permis-
sion I will come down closer to you.
Chairman Kefauver. Yes, come down closer and get the essential
points over. ,. , • • j- .1
Mr. Gaughan. Sir, I hand you a group of clippings from the
Miami Daily News, of Tuesday evening, August 31, 1954, and also
some from the same paper for August 21, 1954 [handing to Mr.
Grimm] .
Sir, can you identify those clippings?
Mr. Grimm. Yes, sir; I can.
Mr. Gaughan. With what are they concerned ?
Mr. Grmm. They are concerned with the tragic death of my son.
Mr. Gaughan. Can you, Mr. Grimm, tell the subcommittee how
it w^as that your boy met his sudden end on the evening of August 20,
1954 ; can you tell us specifically ? I realize it is an unsolved murder
and that the details are— you are as mystified as the police authorities
l3y it— but tell us what you know about it, starting with what occurred
that evening when you came home to dinner and saw your boy for
the last time. -^ m^
Mr. Grimm. Well, I don't know how to go about telling it. ihese
articles are self -explanatory.
We missed him in the evening. He had worked all day tor me. He
got home from his work about 5 o'clock and had come home dirty
and tired, in his work clothes.
He turned on the water faucet to fill the tub with water, then went
out in the yard and fired off a couple of firecrackers which he had
brought back from Georgia. He had been to a summer camp.
He attracted his mother's attention to it. She called out to him
to come in and shut the water off.
He was away all evening, which is unusual. He never left the house
without telling us. He had no errand that we knew of. In fact,
he had planned to go to a civil defense meeting that evening, where
he was a member of the Ground Observation Corps.
I found him the next morning in a very grotesque, weird situation
that I have never been able to cope with or understand yet.
Mr. Gaughan. Would you, sir, for the subcommittee, tell us how
your son was trussed up, 'and the position in which you found him
when you found his body on the morning of August 21 ?
Mr. Grimm. He was trussed up in a very unnatural position. It
looked like it had been planned in some way. It wasn't anything
that I had ever seen before, or anybody else had ever seen before,
that I know of.
Gables Boy Found Hanged,
Weird Dl 3th Baffles Cops
rather Discovers
Im Death
/Miami Daily News
Suspect Gri)
In Grimm Co^
rs
JHongcd Boy In Gables
|Wos Sloin, Police Soy
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 225
He wasn't hung like most people liano- themselves by the neck from
a rope The fact that he didn't have any clothes on, and he was a
modest boy, led me innnediatelv to believe that there was some sex
angle to it, some sex act in some way, either with the hel]) ot someone
else or through retaliation on the part of someone else— 1 don t know
what it is. It is still a mysteiy to me. . t^ ■, at
Mr G\uGHAN. I show you a picture from the Muimi Daily iSews, a
sketch oi the boy [handing to Mr. Grimm]. Would you say that is
an accurate sketch of how the boy was found when you saw hira^
Mr. Grimm. Yes; very accurate.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Gaughan, you just describe the
picture for the record ; tell us what it shows.
Mr. Gaughan. The picture at which I am looking shows 2 saplings,
with forks, and a 1- by 2-inch board is suspended between the 2 forks
of the tree. Hanging by his knees and, of course, in an inverted posi-
tion, is Kenneth Grimm. He is trussed up with ropes, tied around his
ankles, the same ropes reaching from his ankles to his arms, and looped
around his neck, so that his body is pulled back in a very grotesque-
looking position.
The caption underneath the picture reads :
An artist's sketch shows how Kenneth Grimm, 17, was found trussed and
hanging from a wooden crossbar between two trees in bushes near his Coral
Gables home at 502S Maggiore Street. The boy's feet were bound by a rope,
and he was hanging from his knees. The rope from his feet encircled his neck,
bending his body in a sharp backward arc.
Chairman Ivefauver. Let that be entered into the record.
Senator Langer. May I see it, please?
Mr. Gaughan. Yes, sir [handing to Senator Langer].
Mr. Grimm, do you recognize, sir, this booklet which I hand you,
entitled, "Cartoon and Model Parade," published by Irving Klaw,
"the Pin-Up King?"
Mr. Grimm. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Would you tell the subcommittee how you first came
upon a copy of this book ?
Mr. Grimm. Through a mutual friend who was interested in the
case, why, he brought my attention to an ad in one of these so-called
girlie magazines, which publicized this book.
It took him quite a wliile to hnd the thing and bring it to me, and
he finally did. My son-in-law sent off for the catalog.
As a result of that, I found very similar situations, or very similar
acts of tying people up in that book that reminded me of my son's
case, and that is one reason why I got hot on this angle at this end of
it. I had never come across anything like that before, and I was look-
ing for a clue.
I feel that there is some connection in some way. I don't know just
what the connection is, indirectly or directly, through someone else
that studied this and knew about it; I don't know what happened. I
do feel that this is the hottest thing that I have gotten onto since the
boy died; I believe that, as far as this clue to the incident is concerned.
Mr. Gaughan. Sir, I direct your attention specifically to page 3
of this publication showing a young lady trussed up, and ask you to
look at that picture, with her arms tied behind her back, hesr mouth
gagged, the only dissimiliarity is that she is in a sitting position here.
226 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
In other words, if we were to flip her backwards, she would be upside
down.
Is that somewhat similar to the position, the way the rope^ were
arranged when you found your boy ?
Mr. Grimm. I can't say this is a similar position. There are some
in here which are very similar.
Mr. Gaughan. Let me direct your attention to pa^e 4.
Mr. Grimm. Even these cartoons here [indicating], some of these
probably, if you invert them, would probably be very similar.
I can't say that I ever studied these. I would probably be more like
this.
Mr. Gaughan. On page 8 ?
Mr. Grimm. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. I saw one in there where they had a person
hanging with the feet down.
Mr. Gaughan. Yes. There are so many different illustrations of
this hanging business and trussing business that it is hard to point to
any particular one.
Let me show you this one here, sir. This picture here illustrates a
model known as Betty Page.
Does that accurately reflect about how your boy was found?
Mr. Grimm. It is more or less the same. It is a very similar posi-
tion ; there is a resemblance to the way I found him.
Mr. Gaughan. In other words, when you went through this book by
yourself you were immediately struck by the number of illustrations
in that book that depicted the same fashion in which your boy died?
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
Mr. Gaughan. And you, sir, came to what conclusion after looking
at this magazine ?
Mr. Grimm. As I say, I have been looking for some clue to this thing.
I haven't had the police into it. They let the case rest as some type
of accident due to some impulse on the part of the boy. They don't
know anything beyond that, and they haven't been of any help beyond
that.
in trying to solve the thing, in trying to arrive at some more definite
reason for this, why, that is the closest thing I have gotten to it. The
way that was tied, it wasn't anything that any youngster like him, with
his character — it wasn't anything that he could concoct himself. There
wasn't any history of that; no similar action on his part. He led an
outdoor life. He was active in the Boy Scouts from the time he was a
little bit of a fellow. He had attended a boys' camp in Tennessee for
5 or 6 seasons. He had only been home 2 days from the camp when this
happened. He was a counselor there this year, and I don't think they
would have selected him and invited him to have become a counselor if
there was anything questionable about his actions.
Therefore, I feel that he could not have worked himself into this
position of his own making, or couldn't have thought of anything like
that. It would have had to have been brought to his attention by either
someone else showing him how, or he saw a picture of it — I don't know.
I feel there is a definite connection between this sort of thing and his
death.
I also feel there is definitely an evil to this, and I am bound and deter-
mined to do what I can to suppress it. It isn't good. It is an un-
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 227
healthy situation. It is not wholesome. There is iiothiiio- cultural
about it. It is just no damned good. That's all I can say about it.
Naturally, I feel more keenly about it since I was involved in some-
thing that I feel is a direct result of something like this, you see.
Mr. Gaughan. Your boy is gone, and you are trying to prevent any-
thing like this happening in the future to any other parents?
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
Mr. Gaughan. In other words, sir, you became interested in this
thing known as bondage, this tying, after your boy's death, and it was
something with which you were not acquainted prior to this incident?
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
Mr. Gaughan. And you are now in your mind thoroughly convinced
that he was a victim of this thing that we have been discussing this
morning with Dr. Henry, called the bondage and fetish ?
Mr. Grimm. That's right. In some way ; yes, sir.
Mr. Gaughan. Sir, I hand you a clipj^ing from, I believe this is,
the Miami Herald of January 7, 1955 [handing to Mr. Grimm] .
Mr. Grimm. Yes.
Mr. Gaughan. Headed "Murder Charged to Vet in Beach Stran-
gling." Would you, sir, tell us the contents of that article, what it
purports to show ?
Mr. Grimm. It concerns the case of a young fellow about 21 years
old, a veteran of the Marine Corps, just out of the marines, who it
seems was invited to the apartment of a male hairdresser about 27 years
old, and they found the hairdresser trussed up in a very similar fashion
to the way these pictures look there, and the way I found my son — the
same type of thing. In fact, the newspapers made reference to both
cases, the similarity of both cases.
As a result, this 27-year-old fellow died, and the veteran has been
sentenced and convicted, or convicted and sentenced to a lifetime sen-
tence in prison.
The only tieup it has with my son's case is that there was news-
paper references to the two, and it seems to me it has to do with the
same sort of thing which we are all here discussing now.
Mr. Gaughan. I understand, Mr. Grimm, that this young man who
died on January G of this year was found trussed up in the same type
of position except that he was laid on the floor instead of suspended.
Mr. Grimm. Similar, yes; very similar position. The rope was
behind his back, of course. It was unnatural. If it was just a case of
tying somebody up to keep them from getting away, when you study
this, as you and I have since we have become interested in this, you
recognize it innnediately as an unusual practice. It isn't anything
that happens just in the
Mr. Gaughan. Normal course of events?
Mr. Grimm. That's right. Somebody just tying somebody up to
keep them from getting away — there is some sex angle connected with
this, and the police recognize it as such. It evidently has a tie-in with
this bondage idea, about which I never knew before I started studying
it recently.
Mr. Gaughan. This clipping, sir, and other similar clippings to it,
at the time the newspapers in the area called attention to the similarity
of your boy's death, this bov's death
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
228 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr, Gaughan, And it "was pointed out at the trial of the young
man — I believe he was a 20-year-old young man who was convicted and
who is now serving life in the Florida State prison- — that it was a
definite sex crime, and that he had committed an unnatural act upon
the young man who was trussed up.
Mr. Grimm. No, sir; it wasn't exactly like that.
I believe that the theory behind the thing is that it was a sex crime
of this nature, also, but I don't believe that — there was some evidence
of a sex act involved, but just who was involved, I don't know.
As a matter of record, I don't believe it involved the young man.
He claims the other fellow propositioned him, and as a result he tied
hfm up. That's his story.
Chairman Kefaua'er. Let this be filed as an exhibit.
(The newspaper clippings were marked "Exhibit No. 20," and are
on file with the subcommittee.)
Mr. Gaughan. In other words, this is an end result, as we discussed
with Dr. Henry this morning, of the unnatural fetishes, and another
boy is dead.
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
Mr. Gaughan. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. Is
there any question you would like to ask ?
Chairman Kefauver. Senator Langer, any questions ?
Senator Langer. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Grimm, tell us again how it was you got
this publication ?
Mr. Grimm. He had an ad in the girlie-type magazine — a full-page
ad, in fact — describing a lot of this tying up business.
A friend, being interested in my case, tliought it might throw some
light on my son's case, so he brouglit me the magazine. As a result,
my son-in-law sent for this magazine to see what there was to it, and
sent it to me. That's how I came upon this catalog.
Chairman Kefauver. In this catalog which has been shown to
you
Mr. Grimm. Incidentally, after listening to the testimony this morn-
ing, there is no question there, again, as to whether it was a minor or
who was asking for this literature. It was just sent out without any
strings attached at all.
Chairman Kefauver. In this catalog are small examples of what
you will see in larger and more numerous types
Mr. Grimm. Probably so; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Folders. When you send in the money you
get the whole thing.
Mr. Grimm. That's right. Evidently, we didn't send in for them,
because this was just more or less as far as we cared to go with it at
tiie time.
Evidently they come in serial form. The one picture encourages
you to buy more. I suppose that's the idea. We never went in for
that ; we didn't know. I presume that that's the idea behind it.
In other words, you get on the mailing list, and I suppose you are a
subscriber tlien, if you care to be, and you can buy as much of it as you
want.
Chairman Kefauaer. It gives a little example of what it is you are
going to see ; and then it says that after being bound and blindfolded,
"Joan is led away in an automobile driven by a bound and gagged
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 229
chauffeurette, taken to a training school." The price is 50 cents, each
chapter, size 8 by 10,
So that you order by number, and then you get a large picture
and a series of the similar kind of picture here. That is what this
catalog is.
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
Chairman Kefauvj:r. I think it is interesting to look at this. This
seems to be the 97th edition. The catalog itself costs 50 cents.
Mr. Grimm. Yes. Obviously, I believe you will agree with me —
I am no expert on this sort of thing, but I have been around a little bit
in my life, in the type of work that I do — it doesn't take an expert to
recognize that as not a wliolesome, cultural type of literature. It
definitely was not displayed or sent through the mails for that reason
at all, to add to the cultural uplift of the country at all. It is evil ;
it is no good.
Chairman Kepauver. Well, it speaks for itself.
Mr. Grimm. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, sir, we thank you for your cooperation
and for the help you have given us.
Mr. Grimm. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Who is our next witness ?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Irving Klaw.
Mr. Klaw. I would like to request no photographs, no lights. If
you don't mind.
Chairman Kefauver, The photographers have a right to take your
picture. As customary, after you start testifying, we will ask that
the lights be turned off.
Have you been sworn, Mr. Klaw?
Mr. Klaw. No.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you
will give the subcommittee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Klaw. I do.
TESTIMONY OF IRVING KLAW, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Chairman Kefauver. You had counsel with the other day ?
Mr. Klaw. Yes, sir.
Chairaian Kefauver. Is he with you ?
Mr. Klaw. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefaua^er. Mr. Counsel, won't you come up?
Mr. Gangel. I am available in the room for consultation if he
wants me.
Chairman Kefauver. If you want to sit with Mr. Klaw, you may.
Mr. Gangel. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver, Just as you wish. If you will just be avail-
able for consultation, that is all right.
Mr. Gangel. I will be available to him.
_ Chairman Kefauver. If you wish to consult with Mr. Gangel at any
time, you will let the subcommittee know and we will interrupt the
proceedings for tliat purpose.
Let the record show that Senator Langer and the chairman are
present.
Mr. Chumbris, will you proceed ?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr, KlaAv, will you state your full name?
230 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Klaw. Irving Klaw.
Mr. Chumbris. And your address ?
Mr. Klaw. 212 East 14tli Street, New York City.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, in what business are you engaged (
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution of the United States, that to answer may tend to incrimi-
nate me.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, I think it would be well for
you to make a brief statement as to the nature of the testimony that
you expect to elicit from Mr. Klaw by your questions so that we can
determine whether the evidence that you would expect to secure comes
within the jurisdiction of the inquiry of this subcommittee.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Chairman, our investigation reveals that Mr.
Klaw is one of the largest distributors of obscene, lewd, and fetish
photographs throughout the country by mail.
We expect to show that he has had difficulties with the Post Office
Department,
We have had testimony today, as Mell as last week from Dr. Karp-
man, and Dr. Henry today, showing the effect that these photo-
graphs have on juveniles and on youth.
We have had testimony today from Mr. Roth, and other testimony,
which indicates that this material does get into the hands of youth,
and our subcommittee has received complaints from many parents to
the effect that advertisements of these particular i^hotographs, as well
as the photographs themselves, have gotten to the youth.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you expect to ask Mr. Klaw^ and do you
have as to the material that "he is sending out, information that they
are getting to the children and to the young people; is that part of
the showing ?
Mr. Chumbris. That is right. That is part of the overall investi-
gation that not only Mr. Klaw but others are producing the type of
fetish photographs' and lewd photographs that not only in some in-
stances have used youth as models, but they do get into the hands of
the youth.
We do believe that that has a direct bearing on our juvenile delin-
quency investigation.
Chairman Kefauver. Part of this record will also include the testi-
mony of Dr. Henry, Mr. Grimm, and of the exhibits which have been
put "into tlie record, including Cartoon and Model Parade, published
by Irving Klaw, the Pin-Up King, for artists, photogi\aphy students,
and collectors.
Mr. Chumbris, do you expect to prove that our subcommittee has
complaints and correspondence from parents or children, law-enforce-
ment officers, showing that Mr. Klaw's publication has anything to do
of a deleterious nature affecting juvenile delinquency with young
people ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Post Office Department
has turned over to us advertisements similar to the advertisements
that we introduced into the record this morning that Mr. Eoth has
sent out. These advetisements have gotten to the youth.
We have this exhibit which shows the type of photos that do go out
throughout the country.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 231
"VVe have a statement here wliich shows that 65 percent of the cus-
tomers that Mr. Khiw has of movie stills are girls from G to IG, thereby
ci-eating a mailino- list of a great many minors.
We have in our investigation determined information to that effect,
that he has a mailing list
Chairman Kefauver. You mean that he uses young people or
minors in the pictures and the magazines that go out ?
Mr. Chumbris. No ; that they are the ones who request of Mr. Klaw
the movie stills.
He has a mailing list— 65 percent of that mailing list, customer list
of those stills, are girls from 6 to 16. I would like to ask hnn those
particular questions.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. In the opinion of the subcom-
mittee the statement of what you expect to prove by Mr. Klaw has
relevancy and is within the jurisdiction of this subcommittee to make
inquiry.
Would the reporter repeat the question ?
(The reporter read the question, as follows :)
Mr. Klaw, in what business are you engaged?
Chairman Kefau\t:r. Mr. Klaw , the subcommittee will order you
to answer that question.
Mr. Klaw. May I speak to my counsel, please?
Chairman KEFAu^^R. You may speak to your counsed. We will
have a brief recess.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefaua^er. Mr. Klaw^, in fairness and in compliance with
the requirements of the Supreme Court, I must warn you that this
committee will cite you for contempt of the Senate if you decline to
answei', and I wnll now give you a further chance to answer.
That is within the power that we have, we feel that you are in
contempt of the Senate by refusing to answer. It will be our inten-
tion to go through the legal proceedings and the legislative proceed-
ing necessary to have you cited for contempt.
Do you still refuse to answer?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution.
Would that be sufficient to state, that I decline under the fifth
amendment, or should I say it all the way through, Mr. Kefauver?
Chairman Kefauver. We are not asking any quarter and we are
not giving any quarter, Mr. Klaw.
Mr. Counsel, or Mr. Klaw. I doii't know what offense that your client
may have in mind. We have no desire for him to answer any question
or to direct him to answer a question where he pleads the fifth amend-
ment if tliere is really some justification, if he is in actual fear of prose-
cution under some Federal statute, or even if while it is not the law,
some imminent State statute of the State of New York.
Will you, Mr. Klaw. or you, Mr. Gangel, wish to elaborate under
Avhat law he fears he might incriminate himself?
Mr. Gangel. I can state, Mr. Chairman, that in my opinion the
witness has a reasonable apprehension that answers would tend to
incriminate him.
232 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman KErAxrvER. You do not wish to be more specific, Mr.
Gangel.
Mr. Gangel. I don't believe that I can at this time.
Chairman Kefauver. I am not demanding that you do ; I just want
to give you an opportunity.
Mr. Gangel. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that we will rest upon the
asserted privilege of the witness as he has stated it upon the record.
Chairman Kefauver. Does your client have fear of any violence, of
any retaliation of any outside nature in case he might answer ?
Mr. Gangel, If he has, I don't know, sir.
Chairman Ivefauver. If he does, does he wish to say anything about
it one way or the other ? Mr. Klaw ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Chairman ICefauver. . Very well. Ask the next question, Mr.
Chumbris, please go to the next question,
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that from 1933
to 1937 you operated a business as a furrier. I wish you would tell
us about that.
Mr. Klaw. May I speak to my counsel, please, for a second ?
Chairman KEFAm^ER. Yes, you may.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. Yes. I was employed as a furrier during that period
mentioned. , , .i
Mr. Gangel. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, do I understand that there
are pictures being taken now ? I understood you to state at the outset
that at the request of the witness that would not prevail.
Chairman Ivefauver. Yes; that is the rule. If you request that
the television or movies not be taken any further, we will ask them
to desist.
All right, next question.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that since 1937
you have produced .
Chairman Kefauver. Excuse me just a minute. What was the time
he operated as a furrier ?
Mr. Chumbris. From 1933 to 1937.
Chairman Ivefauver. Thank you.
Mr. IvLAW. Approximately that time. I dont know the exact
Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that since 1937 you have
produced and distributed obscene, nude, and fetish photographs
throughout the country by mail. I wish you would tell us about this.
Mr, Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution, that to answer might tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Ivefauver. Mr. Klaw, you are directed by the subcom-
mittee to answer. . -Hi.
I want to state that the committee, this subcommittee, will expect
to endeavor to have you held in contempt by the Senate, and through
such legal and legislative procedures as may be necessary.
Then, if held in contempt by the Senate, the matter then goes to
the district court, where you will be tried for that, or presented to a
£[rand jury.
If the grand jury returns a true bill, presumably you will be tried
unless the matter is dismissed by the district attorney.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 233
That will be the procedure we will endeavor to follow if you refuse
to answer.
Do you wish to consult your counsel ?
Mr. Klaw. Yes.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. You say that you declme to answer under
the fifth amendment, basing your grounds upon the fifth amendment
to the Constitution.
Next question, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, I have here a publication known as
Cartoon and Model Parade, 9Tth edition, price 50 cents, published
by Irving Klaw, and in quotes, "The Pin- Up King"— "For artists,
photography students, and collectors."
I show you this magazine and I would like for you to look at it care-
fully [handing to Mr. Klaw].
Chairman Kefauver. Ask your question, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that you have published
that magazine and that you have distributed throughout the United
States photographs that have been produced
Chairman Kefauver. The magazine speaks for itself.
Mr. Chumbris. That have been produced by you that have been
reflected in this particular catalog.
Will you tell us about the pictures in that catalog and your pro-
duction and distribution of those pictures throughout the United
States ?
Mr. IvLAw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution, on the grounds that to answer may tend to incriminate
me.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, it is again my duty to direct you
to answer under penalty of contempt of the Senate. Do you still
refuse ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment of the
Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, do you or any company with which
you are connected print or publish the magazine <^hat has been handed
to you and which will now be identified an 'Exhibit A" to your testi-
mony ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer, and if you do not
answer this subcommittee will do everything possible to have you held
in contempt of the Senate.
Do you still refuse to answer ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Let it be marked and identified as an exhibit.
Will you so mark it at the present time, Mr. Chumbris ?
(The catalogue was marked "Exhibit No. 21" and is on file with
the subcommittee. )
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals
Chairman Kefauver. We order that the magazine marked "Ex-
hibit A" is made a part of the official record.
234 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Proceed, ^Ir. Chumbris.
Mr. CiiuMBRTs. Mr. Klaw, our investijoation reveals that you are
known as one of the hirgest distributors of obscene, nude, and fetish
photographs. I wish you would tell the subcommittee about this.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefau^'er. Mr. Klaw, you are directed to answer by the
subconnnittee under penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaav. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefatver. Mr. Chumbris, your first question was about
his business. I should like to ask Mr. Klaw if he will tell us in what
business he has been engaged since 1937.
Mr. Klaw. May I consult my counsel, please?
Chairman Kefaumlr. Very well.
(Mr. Klaw consults with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaav. 1 decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, tliat to ansAver my tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman orders you to answer under
penalty of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to ansAver may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefaua-er. Next question, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that you have
been investigated by the United States Post Office Department for
alleged violations of title 18, sections 1-161 and 1462, Avhich pertain to
obscene matter sent through the mails. I Avish you would tell this
subcommittee your difficulties Avith the Post Office Department.
Mr. Klaav. I Avould like to consult with my counsel.
Chairman Kefaua'er. Very Avell.
(Mr. KlaAv consults Avith Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaav. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to ansAver may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauater. The chair directs you to ansAver under penalty
of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaav. I decline to ansAver under the fifth amendment that to
answer may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Langer. Mr. Chairman, I should like to haA^e a recess of
5 minutes. There is an important telephone call for me.
Chairman Kefauver. We Avill stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(A recess Avas taken.)
Senator Lancer. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefaua'er. We were glad to have a recess. The recess is
now terminated. The record Avill shoAv that Senator Danger and the
chairman are present.
Mr. Chumbris, will you ask your next question?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, did you ever employ a teen-ager to pose
for your fetish and nude photos that you have distributed throughout
the United States by mail?
Mr. Klaw^, I ask you to answer that, please.
Mr. Klaav. I decline to answer under the grounds — under the fifth
amendment to the Constitution, that the answer may tend to incrim-
inate me.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 235
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman ^Yill order you to answer the
question under penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. Let's ask this question :
Have you ever employed any teen-agers, young people under 21
years of age, to pose or participate in photographs, in the making of
photographs ?
Mr. KuAw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
C^hairman Kefauver. The chairman orders' you to answer under
penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. KuAw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefau\er. Do you have or have you ever had a mailing
list for send out any catalogs or information which includes teen-
agers ?
Mr. Klaw. I would like to speak to my counsel for a second.
Chairman Kefauver. You may.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chaiinian Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under
penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer inider the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to ansAver may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show that he declines to answer.
Go ahead, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that 65 per-
cent of your customers for movie stills are girls from (5 to 16, thereby
creating a mailing list of a great many minors.
Do you wish to tell the subcommittee about that mailing list? Is that
true ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer upon
penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment, that to
answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that some of
the girls who modeled for your obscene, nude, and fetish pictures have
also posed for obscene and lewd pictures for other photographers. Is
this true or not ?
Mr. Klaw. I want to consult my counsel for a minute.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, you are directed to answ^er under
penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Klaw, have you ever employed or do you
employ any young people under 18 years of age in your business ?
65263—55 Ki
236 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under
penalty of contempt of the United States Senate.
Mr. Klaw. May I consult my attorney for a second ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. All right. Anything else, Mr. Chumbris ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir,
Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that some of your clients request
fetish and other photographs made to order to satisfy your client's
specific perversions, that you fulfill such requests. Is that true or not ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. We order you to answer under penalty of
contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that you do a
gross business of $1,500,000 a year in the production and distribution
of nude and fetish pictures. Is that true or false ?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman will direct you to answer under
penalty of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw\ I decline to answer imder the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, do you go under the title of "King of
photographs," "King of the Pin-up Photographs" ?
Mr. Klaw. May I speak to my counsel for a minute ?
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty
of contempt of the Senate.
Mr. KLAW^ I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution — that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Klaw, our investigation reveals that you have
the largest collection of movie stills of any one person in the United
States of America. Is that true or false?
Mr. Klaw^ I would like to consult my counsel for a minute.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution — that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty of
contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution — that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. I think that covers the field fairly well.
Mr. Klaw, you will remain under continuing subpena and report
back when you or your counsel is notified.
Mr. Gangel, I think we have your address.
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCy 237
Mr. Gangel. I stated it for the record last Tuesday, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. State it again. It is G-a-n-g-e-1?
Mr. Gangel. That's right.
Chairman Kefauver. What is your first name?
Mr. Gangel. Coleman, C-o-l-e-m-a-n.
Chairman Kefauver. And your address?
Mr. Gangel. 165 Broadway.
Chairman Kefauver. Upon notice to you, Mr. Klaw, or you, Mr.
Gangel ?
As v^^e leave, Mr. Klaw, I think T should advise you again that we
expect to endeavor to have you held in contempt for refusal to answer
some or all of these questions.
If you wish to reconsider and give us any information about the
subject matter which we have asked you, I will give you an oppor-
tunity to do so at this time.
Mr. Gangel. May I ask the chairman whether a transcript of the
questions and answers would be available to the witness upon payment
of the cost ?
Chairman Kefauver. I will instruct the reporter to let the witness
or his attorney have a copy of the transcript upon payment of the
costs.
That is all.
Mr. Gaughan. Mr. Chairman, may I direct the attention of counsel,
and the attention of Mr. Klaw, to the fact that after Mr. Klaw claimed
the privilege, he later answered a question concerning his past asso-
ciations and business life, and then went back behind the privilege
again and refused to answer questions.
I think, Mr. Chairman, that that probably wnll be the position of
this subcommittee that he relinquished his right to claim the privilege
once he answered the question concerning his past business association.
Mr. Gangel. Mr. Chairman, I think that points up the burden of
counsel in advising the witness under the circumstances.
Chairman Kefatht.r. Yes. That is Mr. Gangel's
Mr. Gangel. Headache.
Chairman Kefauver. I appreciate the suggestion, Mr. Gaughan;
but that is a matter for Mr. Klaw and his counsel.
Senator Langer?
Senator Langer. Could I see that exhibit 21 ?
(Exhibit 21 was handed to Senator Langer.)
Senator Langer. No questions.
Chairman KEFAirsTiR. Mr. Klaw, you appeared here on last Tues-
day. At that time you were asked to bring in certain books and
papers as described in the subpena which had been served upon you.
You refused to do so, either under the fourth amendment or under
the fifth amendment.
Have you brought those books and papers in as directed ?
Mr. Klaw\ I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
And furthermore, under the fourth amendment to the Constitution,
the subpena is vague and illegal.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer the question under
penalty of contempt of the United States Senate.
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment to the
Constitution, that to answer may tend to incriminate me.
238 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. You have not complied witli the snbpena, Miv
Klaw, and it is my duty to warn you that your not having complied
with the snbpena, unless you express a willingness now to comply
with the snbpena, that this subcommittee will do all within its power
to have you cited for contempt by the Senate.
Do you wish to comply with the snbpena ?
Mr. Klaw. I would like to speak to my counsel for a second.
Chairman Kefau\t;r. You will have that opportunity.
(Mr. Klaw confers with Mr. Gangel.)
Mr. Klaw. I wish to answer that I decline to answer under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution, that to answer may tend to in-
criminate me.
And furthermore, that under tlie fourth amendment to the Consti-
tution, that to make them available may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefau\t:jr. Again, sir, you are ordered to answer penalty
of contempt of the Senate.
Do you continue to decline to answer and to produce the books
and records?
Mr. Klaw. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment, that to
answer may tend to incriminate me.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Gangel, I believe that is all.
Mr. Gangel. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin.
Chairman Kefauver. Sit down, Mr. Mishkin.
Mr. Mishkin, you were here on last Thursday. At that time you
were accompanied by Mr. Weiss.
We have a note from Mr. Weiss. He called, or somebody called,,
saying that he cannot come today because he is in a city council meet-
ing, but he is sending Mishkin and Stone here. It would be good to
introduce this item into the record and show that Mr. Weiss is the
counsel man.
Do you wish to secure any counsel to advise you upon any matters
here ?
Mr. MisHKix. At the present moment?
Chairman Kefai^er. Yes.
Mr. MisiiKix. I don't know of any. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You intend to handle it yourself?
Mr. ^Mishkin. I have been advised by him what to sny.
Chairman Kefauver. You have talked to your counsel and he has
advised you what to say. You have it before you?
Mr. Mishkin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You have your instructions written out on a
piece of paper, I understand.
Ijet the record show that Senator Danger and the chairman are
liere. Mr. Mishkin has returned again pursuant to snbpena.
Mr. Chumbris, I wish you would stat« very briefly what it is that
you expect or hope to prove by Mr. Mishkin which brings your
questions or the information that you are eliciting Avithin the juris-
diction of this subcommittee.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Chairman, our investigation reveals that Mr.
Mishkin deals in pornographic material; that not only does he dis-
tribute and sell the material but he has also been known to finance
other persons in the distribution and sale of pornographic material..
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 239
Chairman Kefauver. Does this pornographic material reach chil-
•dren ?
Mr. Chumbris. From tlie information that we have received, this
pornographic matei-ial reaches children throughout the many areas
of the ITnited States. Known pornographers have received their
particuhir pornographic material through Mr. Mishkin's sources.
Chairman Kefauver. Is there evidence that this material contrib-
utes or increases juvenile delinquency among the young people?
Mr, CiruMBRis. Yes. I tliink the testimony not only here in New
York but in other hearings is replete with testimony to the effect that
pornography in the hands of juveniles has a terrific impact on them
and leads them to delinquent acts.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin was asked a number of questions
the other day. Do you have questions you wish to ask him at this
time ?
Mr. CiiUMBRTs. Yes ; I have, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you proceed.
The Chair will rule, and it is the consensus of the subcommittee
authorized to sit liere, showing what counsel would expect to prove
by this witness has a connection with juvenile delinquency, which is
the subject matter we are studying here.
Mr. Chumbris, you go on with your questions.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD MISHKIN, YONKERS, N. Y.— Resumed
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that you
are in the business of pornography and obscene literature, and have
heen for quite some period of time, at least 3 to 5 years. Is that true?
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of tlie Constitution.
Cliairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, this question has been asked of
you, as others were the other day. The chairman will have to order
you to answer this question.
I must warn you now that your refusal to answer this question will
force this subcommittee to consider you in contempt of the United
States Senate, and will endeavor to take such action as is necessary to
have it presented to the Senate which, in turn, will refer it to a district
attorney here in this district of New York for presentment to a grand
In other words, it will be our intention to make you pay the penalty
for contempt of the Senate if you refuse to answer this and other
questions which you are ordered to answer.
Do you understand that, sir?
Mr. MiSHKix. I refuse to answer under the innnunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer, and you still re-
fuse to answer; is that correct?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer.
Chairman Kefau^tr. I would like to ask a question.
Mr. Mishkin, in what business are you presently engaged?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer upon penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
240 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. MiSHKTN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. The record will show that he still refused to
answer.
Go ahead, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that you have
developed your obscene-material business to the point that you manu-
facture, you wholesale, you distribute, and you have large retail busi-
ness of obscene material in your store ; that you also finance people to
get into the obscene-material business. Is that true ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman directs you to answer under
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, in whatever business you may
be engaged do you employ children ?
Mr. IMiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
]\Ir. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Next question, Mr. Chumbris.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that a Mr.
Cobb borrowed $2,000 from you to get started in the obscene-picture
business.
Mr. Mishkin. Wliat was that name ?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Cobb, C-o-b-b. He borrowed $2,000 from you
to get started in the obscene-picture business. Is that true?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefau^ter. You are ordered to answer under penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Next question.
Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that Mr. Cobb and you
had a dispute and a falling out in your business relationship on the
pornographic material. Is that true?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. I don't think that I will order him to answer
that question.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, our investigation reveals that you have
known distributors in Florida, in New York City, in St. Louis, Mo.,
who have distributed pornographic material to juveniles and minors.
Is that true?
Mr, Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer under penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
JUVENILE DELESTQUENCY 241
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefaitver. Next question.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Mr. Al Stone, alias Abraham Kubin-
stein, alias Abraham Rubin ?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answ^er under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefau^t.r. You are ordered to answ^er under penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Next question.
Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that you plagiarized ma-
terial from one Irving Klaw", resulting in serious arguments with said
Irving Klaw. Is that true or false?
Mr. MiSHKUsr. What was that question again?
Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that you have plagiarized
material
Mr. MisiiKiN. What did I do ?
Mr. Chumbris. You have stolen material that Mr. Klaw used — Mr.
Irving Klaw, resulting in serious arguments with said Irving Klavv^.
Chairman Kefauver. Plagiarized. Do you know what plagiarized
means ?
Mr. MisHKiN. I know what that means now ; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you w^ant to answer that question?
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer under penalty of
being in conteniDt of the Senate.
Mr. MiSHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, we have some information here
that has been brought to our attention, that allegedly you purchased
the plates and financed Kingsley Book Store operated by a young
man who was in here the other day, for the printing of the Nights
of Horror. Is that true?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answ^er under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman KErAu\'ER. You are directed to answer under penalty
of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions
of the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, do you own outright or with other
persons the Times Square Book Bazaar in New York City, the Little
Book Exchange in New York City, and/or the Kingsley Book Store
in New York City, all stores near the Times Square area in New-
York City ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answ^er under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
242 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. Do you employ any minors, any teen-agers,
in any business with which you are connected?
Mr. MisHKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You will be ordered and directed to answer
under penalty of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. MiSHKix. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, do you permit minors and juveniles to
peruse and/or buy obscene material that you sell in one of the three
stores that I just mentioned — the Times Square Book Bazaar, the
Little Book Exchange, the Kingsley Book Store, or any one of those
three?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. MisHKix. I refuse to answer under the immunity proA^sions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Proceed.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Mishkin, how long have you been in the porno-
graphic material business?
Mr. INIisHKix. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penaltj'
of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you understand what the term "fetish pictures"
means ?
Mr. MisHTN. I refuse to answer under the immunity proA^isions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. MisiiKix. I refuse to answer under the imminiity proA'isions of
the fiftli amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you understand what "obscene pictures," or
■"obscene booklets," or "obscene paper writings" mean?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefaua^r. Very well.
Now, Mr. Mishkin, you refused to ansAver some questions on last
Thursday.
Senator Danger. May I ask a question?
Chairman Kefaiwer. Yes, Senator Danger.
Senator Danger. Mr. "Witness, did you print or have printed, or did
you manufacture, or did you AA^holesale or did you distribute pictures
shoAAing a young boy about 15 having sexual intercourse with a
girl of 14 ?
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to ansAver under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefaua'er. You are directed to ansAver under penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Mishkin, I refuse to ansAA^er under the immunity provisions.
Chairman Kefauwer. Senator Daiiijer.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 243
Senator Langer. Mr. Witness, did you print or have printed, or did
you wholesale, or did you distribute pictures showing a bulldoo; having
sexual intercourse with a girl ap]:)roximately 15 years of age?
Mr. INIisiiKiN, I refuse to answer under the imnuniity provisions of
tlie fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman KEFALmsH. You are ordered to answer under penalty of
being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. MisiiKiN. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Mishkin, you refused to answer some
questions the other day, and you refused to answer some today.
The law bends over backward, or is very lenient, in giving witnesses
the protection of the fifth amendment if they are entitled to it. I
feel I must notify you and warn you that it will be our endeavor to
have you cited for contempt for refusal to answer the questions the
other day and your refusal to answer questions today, and to give you
a final chance of doing so if you wish to do so now.
If there are any of these questions that you want to answer, or if
there is any explanation you want to give, we will be glad to hear
you now.
Mr. Mishkin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions
of the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefaun'er. Very well, Mr. Mishkin. You will remain
under subpena, and it may be we will want to call you again. You are
excused now.
Call our next witness.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shapiro, please. Mr. A. M. Shapiro.
Chairman Kefaitver. Let us call another witness if he is not here.
Mr. Chumbris. Is Mr. — Mr. Kaplain, Mr. Shomer received the
subcommittee's telegram this morning. Mr. Rachstein, his counsel,
was away for the weekend. They expect Mr. Rachstein back about
4 o'clock.
Chairman Kefauver. We will defer his appearance until later on.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM RUBIN, BROOKLYN, N. Y.— Resumed
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, you were sworn the other day
and testified here last Thursday, I believe; is that right?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You have been notified to come back today?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. He objects to being televised. Gentlemen,,
I will ask your indulgence.
Mr. Rubin, you go by the name of Abraham Rubin and not Al
Stone ?
Mr. Rubin. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. Wiich is correct?
]Mr, Rubin. Abraham Rubin.
Chairman Kefauver. Or is it Al Stone?
Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you known as Al Stone sometimes ?
Mr. Rubin. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. You never have been?
244 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Rubin. Abraham Rubin.
Chairman Kefauver. I don't know where we got Al Stone. Have
you ever been known as Al Stone ?
Mr. Rubin. My name is Abraham Rubin.
Chairman Kefauver. My question was, have you been known as
Al Stone?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the iimnunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, you were here the other day with
your counsel, Mr. Weiss. We got a message he had been attending
a city council meeting. Have you conferred with him, and do you
wish to have counsel at this time ?
Mr. Rubin. I will go ahead.
Chairman Kefauver. Have you conferred with Mr. Weiss — and
you have a little piece of paper there ?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. What is on that piece of paper ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you i-efusing to tell me what is on the
paper, or are you talking about what is on the paper ?
Mr. Rubin. That is on the paper.
Chairman Kefauver. That is what Mr. Weiss gave you to read out
«very time you are asked a question ?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you say "Yes"?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Then you don't need Mr. Weiss here?
Mr. Rubin. That is right.
Chairman Kefau\"er. But if you want to have an attorney to con-
sult with, we want to give you an opportunity to do so. Do you
understand that ?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you want to have an attorney to consult
with ?
Mr. Rubin. You can postpone it.
Chairman Kefauver. Can you get Mr. Weiss here this afternoon?
Mr. Rubin. No. He is at a council meeting.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, what do you understand your
imnumity privilege to be ? Do you understand your immunity under
the fifth amendment ? What do you understand it to be ?
Mr. Rubin. I would like to have my counsel here.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you want to wait until later on this after-
noon ?
Mr. Rubin. He won't be here today.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. We have hacl no application by Mr. Weiss to
put off any of your hearing on the ground he isn't here; but if you
want to get him or somebody else, we will give you a while this after-
noon to do so. Would you rather come back a little later on this
afternoon ? Mr. Rubin, see if you can get your counsel here by 4 : 30
or some other counsel. We will call you back at that time.
Mr. Rubin. I won't get anybody else but Mr. Weiss.
Chairman Kefauver. A council meeting doesn't last all afternoon.
Mr. Rubin. I will try to get him, sir.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 245
Chairinaii Kefauver. You are excused until 4 : 30. We will call
you back then.
Wlio is our next witness ?
Mr. Chumbris. Morris Gillman. , . o
Chairman KErAUVER. Mr. Gillman, you have been here betore ?
Mr. Gillman. No. t»t i j.^. tv/t
Mr Gold. Jacob Lewis Gold, 280 Broadway, Manhattan. Mi.
Chairman, my client objects to the television and moving pictures
^^''^cSinnan Kefauver. All right. Mr. Gold objects on behalf of Mr.
Gillman. I will have to ask your indulgence.
Mr. Gold, you are counsel for Mr. Gillman?
Mr. Gold. Yes. ^ , , , . , i i
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Gillman, I don't think you have been
sworn. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this com-
mittee will be the whole truth, so help you God?
Mr. Gillman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MOERIS GILLMAN, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Chumbris. Your name is Morris Gillman ?
Mr. Gillman. That is right.
Mr. Chumbris. Where do you reside?
Mr. Gillman. 1815 Davidson Avenue, Bronx.
Mr. Chumbris, ^^^lat is your occupation ?
Mr. Gillman. I am not employed right now because I am sick.
Mr. Chumbris. How long has that been ?
Mr. Gillman. Quite a few years. .
Mr. Chumbris. Could you be specific? AVhat year was it>-1950,
1951, 1952?
Mr. Gillman. The last time I was employed was m 1952.
Mr. Chumbris. 1952?
Mr. Gillman. That is right.
Mr. Chumbris. What month ?
Mr. Gillman. It was during the summer.
Mr. Chumbris. What type of work were you doing then?
Mr. Gillman. It was in a dye house in Now Jersey.
JSIr. Chumbris. What was the name of the company ?
Mr. Gillman. Ranko Finishing Co.
Mr. Chumbris. What type of work did you do ?
Mr. Gillman. I was watching the goods when they were coming out
of the machine.
Mr. Chumbris. What salary did you make?
Mr. Gillman. It wasn't steady. It was a couple of days a week,
and I couldn't handle it because it was too heavy. Sometimes you
have to lift the machine to get the goods out.
Mr. Chumbris. How long had you been working at the Ranko Fin-
ishing Co.?
Mr. Gillman. A couple of months.
Mr. Chumbris. What did you do before that time ?
Mr. Gillman. I wasn't doing anything. I was staying home, taking
•care of the house. I was sick.
Mr. Chumbris. Let us see if I get this straight. You haven t been
doing anything for the past couple of years ?
246 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. GiLLMAX. Right.
Mr. Chumbris. The hist job you had was with Ranko Finishing,
and you hekl that job for 2 months?
Mr. GillmajS'. That is right; I couldn't do it.
Mr. Chumbris. Previous to that time what work did you do — pre-
vious to your job at Ranko?
Mr. GiLLMAN. I haven't been doing anything.
Mr. Chumbris. For how many years back?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Maybe 10 ; maybe 9 or 10 years.
Mr. Chumbris. How have you been supporting yourself ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. The wife has been working and supporting me.
Mr. Chumbris. Did you bring any of your records with you?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have those with you at this time ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Let us get the records in. Wliat records do
we have to be identified ? Catalog them so they can be turned back
to Mr. Gillman or his attorney.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Gillman, do you know Andy Bruckner?
Mr. Gillman. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. You have never had any business dealings with
a person named Andy Bruckner?
Mr. Gillman, Not that I know of. I never heard of that name
before.
Chairman IvEFAmTER. Andy Bruckner, who lives in New Jersey,
who was convicted of selling filthy pictures and whatnot.
Mr. Gillman. I don't know the man. I never heard of the name.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know anybody there who might have
been him, or was in that business?
Mr. Gillman. I was never in that business in my life.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Kenneth Eads ?
Mr. Gillman. I never heard that name.
Chairman Kefauver. If we got the wrong information about you,
1 certainly want to apologize. The investigation had a connection
between you and Bruckner. If you don't know him, that is something
else.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Gillman, do you own an automobile or did
you own a 1950 green Ford sedan, registered in the name of Morris
Gillman, 1815 Davidson Avenue, Bronx, New York?
Mr. Gillman. Wlien my wife bought it, it may have been under
my name. I don't remember.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know of your own knowledge whether you
ever loaned that automobile to Kenneth Eads of 473 Second Avenue ?
Mr. Gillman. I never loaned my car to anybody.
Chairman Kefauver. Did he get the car and have it around in some
business?
Mr. Gillman. Nobody ever drove that car.
Chairman Kefauvtsr. Did he get it from your wife ?
Mr. Gillman. Nobody drove that car except mj-self and my wife.
Chairman Kefauver. Did he get it from your wife ?
Mr. Gillman. I don't think so. I don't know of any such name.
Chairman Kefauver. If he had your car and got arrested with your
car, would you know about that ?
Mr. Glllman. That is something new to me.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 247
Chairman Kefauver. Is your car 4U9975 ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. A 1950 green Ford sedan ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Wliat year?
Chairman Kkfaun'er. 1950.
Mr. GiLLMAN. I know we had a 1950 Ford.
Mr. Chumbris. A 1950 Ford ; is that correct?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Yes, but I don't recall the plate number.
Mr. Chumbris. Let me make this statement, and you tell us whether
it is true or false. On March 11, 1950, it was decided to keep Ken-
neth Eads, of 473 Second Avenue under observation. At about 1 p. m.
on March 11, 1950, Eads left 473 Second Avenue, carrying a carton
and a suitcase, entered car license No. 4U9975, New York, a 1950 green
Ford sedan registered to Morris Gillman of 1815 Davidson, Bronx,
N.Y.
Mr. GiLLMAN. I don't know of such a name.
Mr, Chumbris. Who had police department record E-1403. The
car w^as driven by an unknown male who drove Eads to 313 West 27th,
where Eads left the car and entered a furnished rooming house.
Chairman Kefauver. You say you don't know Mr. Eads?
Mr. GiiXMAN, I don't know Mr. Eads.
Mr. Chumbris. You have no recollection of being in the car with
the person going to that address that I mentioned ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir.
Chairman Kefaux^r. "VVliat have you ever done, Mr. Gillman?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Before I went into the service I used to peddle ties.
Chairman Kefauver. Peddle what ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Ties.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have a police record, Mr. Gillman?
Mr. GiLLMAN. I paid a $50 fine in Jersey City.
Mr. Chumbris. What was that for ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. That was for peddling at that time. I will tell you
how it happened. I went into the saloon to sell the ties, and while I
was selling the ties there was a fellow in there selling pictures, so I
bought about 7 or 8 pictures from him ; and then when I walked out
the detective stopped me for a license, but I don't have any, so they
searched me and found the pictures on me; and they arrested me at
that time. That was in 1942.
Chairman Kefauver. Wliat kind of pictures were they?
Mr. GiLLMAN. They were fellows and girls. I was young at that
time. I bought them for myself.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, go ahead.
Mr. CnirMKRis. Were you ever arrested in April of 1942, in Jersey
City, charged with the sale and possession of obscene pictures — in
1942?
Mr. GiLLMAN. I just explained to you how it happened.
Mr. Chumbris. That was in 1942 ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. That is correct.
Mr. Chumbris. Was that the only time you were arrested ?
Mr. Gillman. I was arrested a couple of times for shooting dice,
besides that.
Mr. Chumbris. Where was that?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Once it was at Newark.
Mr. Chumbris. What year ?
248 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. G1LI.MAN. I don't recall exactly. It was in 1945.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know where Nick's shoeshine parlor
and novelty store, in Ashburton Avenue, Yonkers, is ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. We live right near Yonkers, and we do a lot of
shopping around there, but I don't know anybody by the name of
Nick.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you ever meet a fellow from New Jersey
there in the pornographic-literature business?
Mr. GiLLMAN. Never.
Chairman KErAUAT:R. And you don't know Mr. Bruckner?
Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know a man named Joe, who is in
that business ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. No, sir.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. All right.
Mr. Chumbris. In September of 1953, were you held by the Natural-
ization and Immigration Service ?
Mr. GiLLMAN. I don't know what they wanted me down there for.
Mr. Gold. There was a hearing, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chumbris. There was a hearing.
Chairman Kefauver. What was it about ?
Mr. Gold. A question of these convictions, 1 for obscene literature,
possession, in 1942 ; and 2 convictions for gambling — shooting dice. _
Chairman Kjepauver. It was on the revocation of his emigration
citizenship ?
Mr. Gold. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Where were you born ?
Mr, GiLLMAN. Quebec.
Chairman Kefauver. You were naturalized when ?
Mr. Gold. He was naturalized in the United States District Court,
right here, on August 5, 1948.
Chairman Kefauver. That was in connection with the possible rev-
ocation of your citizenship ?
Mr. Gold. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Did they charge him with moral turpitude at
that time?
Mr. Gold. No, they did not. It was the question of the convictions — ^
the one for possession, and two for gambling. At that time we called
the attention of the inspector conducting the hearing to the fact that
the witness had received a discharge under honorable circumstances
from the United States Navy. At that time the hearing was closed
under the provisions of the Emigration and Nationality Act of 1940
which permits a naturalization without question to an applicant dis-
charged under honorable conditions from the Amied Forces.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Gold, Mr. Gillman was called in pri-
marily in connection with a staff report he was associated with Mr.
Bruckner, who has been dealing in pornographic literature extensively,
and who was arrested and sentenced for it.
He says he is not the right person, and this other matter apparently
has had some connection with it in times past; but that is not the
primary matter he was called in here about.
Mr. Gold. I might point out to the chairman that as evidence of
good faith Mr. Gillman and myself requested a preliminary hearing;
before one of the counsel to the committee to ascertain what he was=
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 249
here for, and to make his denials. He at that time Avas requested to
tell the committee under oath the same things he had told Mr. Gaughan^
I think it was, and I think he has so done.
Chairman Kefauver. Unfortunately, lack of passing information
from one to another— it didn't get to us. Anyway, that is all for the
present time.
Mr. Fishman.
Mr. Fishman, you are a good public official, and you might have to
talk about somebody, so 1 guess I had better swear you. Do you
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the whole truth, so
help you God?
Mr. FisiiMAX. I do.
TESTIMONY OF IRVING FISHMAN, DEPUTY COLLECTOR OF
CUSTOMS, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Chairman Kefauver. Let us get on with Mr. Fishman.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Fishman, will you give your full name and
address and official capacity for the record, please ?
Mr. Fishman. Irving Fishman; I live at 2095 Kruger Avenue;
deputy collector of customs at the port of New York.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Fisliman, you have testified previously before
congressional committees on your duties and responsibilities as a
customs official?
Mr. Fishman. I have.
Mr. Chumbris. And their relationship to combatting the porno-
graphic distribution?
Mr. Fishman. I have ; that is right.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have a prepared statement ?
Mr, Fishman. I have a prepared statement which I would like to
refer to very briefly.
Chairman Kefau\ter. Do you want to file your statement?
Mr. Fishman. I have submitted to the committee a copy of this
statement. I merely wanted to establish the relationship of customs
to the particular problem in question.
Chairman Kefattver. Your statement will be appended in full to
the record.
Mr. Chumbris. Will you please explain under what act you operate,
and what your resi)onsibilities are?
Mr. Fishman. Well, the present provision of the Tariff Act under
which we operate has appeared for the first time in the Tariff Act of
1942. The language hasn't changed very much. The specific portion
of the section, section 305 of the Tariff Act, deals with the prohibition
against the importation of materials considered obscene or immoral.
Those two tests must be met before we can detain or hold or seize
any material for violation of this provision of the law. The deter-
mination must be first made that a book, or photograph, or magazine,
or motion-picture film, is either obscene or immoral.
The determination that we make is subject to review. The owner
has the right to judicial review, and before we can forfeit the material
a report of the facts and circumstances of seizure, and so on, is sent
to the Ignited States attorney in the district for which the seizure
is made.
250 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. CnuMBRis. How much of a personnel does your office have to
cover the many ports of the United States to stop the traffic of por-
nography from getting into the country ?
Mr, FiSHMAN. There are 45 customs districts in the United States.
The detention of material as possibly objectionable is made by the
examiners. For example, at the port of New York there is a book
examiner who specializes in examining printed materials; and then,
of course, we have our customs inspectors who examine the effects of
members of the crew, baggage of incoming passengers; and we also
have a force of inspectors who examine mail, foreign mail, which is
turned over to the customs service by the Post Office Department for
examination. The purpose of this is for the collection of revenue.
In making the examination to determine the possible assessment of
duties, these examiners will hold any material which they suspect may
be obscene or immoral. That material is then sent to my office, where
our group makes the final determination as to whether the material
detained is actually violative of this section of the law.
Mr. Chumbris. I understand that your staff has set up some new
offices in New Orleans and San Francisco and in Chicago, or, at least,
enlarged those offices. Elaborate on that, please.
Mr. FiSHMAN. The purpose of these control units is primarily to
assist in the enforcement of a Foreign Agents' Registration Act and
deals specifically with Communist-type political propaganda.
In connection with the examination of imported material for this
purpose, anything found violative of the Tariff Act would also be held
and seized and subsequently forfeited.
Mr. Chumbris. The testimony of one of the customs officials at one
of our community hearings stated that they are unable to ascertain
the amount of pornography that comes into the country, and if he
were to estimate he would place it at about 5 percent of what actually
comes in.
Would you like to comment on that ?
Mr. FiSHMAN. I don't know what reference he was making, but it
seems to me he might have been talking about our current problem —
not current, but it has been our problem for some time, due to lack
of adequate personnel, lack of appropriation, and so on.
We examine, as I mentioned, such mail from abroad, such foreign
mail, as is suspected of being dutiable. In 1953, for example, the
Post Office Department submitted to the customs service, countrywide
at these districts that I mentioned, approximately 28 million mailed
parcels for examination.
With the force available, we can look at about 5 percent of that mail.
Probably his reference to 5 percent may have been to the part that
we can examine.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have jurisdiction over the ships that come
in at different ports ?
Mr. FiSHMAX. Yes. We make a search of the quarters of the crews ;
the seizures that come up as a result of that are frequent. Of course,
we make an examination of the effects of passengers coming into the
United States.
Mr. Chumrbis. Then lack of personnel is one of the problems that
your agency has ?
Mr. FisHMAN. Yes.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 251
. Mr. Chumbris. Could you recommend to this subcommittee any
amending legislation, or the amount of increased appropriation, that
might l)e needed to properly meet this problem ?
Mr. FiSHMAN. Any observation that I might have must, of course, be
strictly my own. 1 am not authorized to speak for the Treasury De-
partment. Actually, the Treasury Department, Bureau of Customs,
did apply for an increase of appropriation for the purpose of coping
with this mail examination problem.
It looks as though this next fiscal year we may have some additional
help for that purpose.
That, of course, is only one problem. The other feature of it is the
difficulty of administering some of the provisions of the existing law,
due to the difficulty of reaching a conclusion as to what is obscene. The
courts have not been very clear. We find it a little difficult to operate.
Then, of course, there is the natural apathy of the public. The job
of detaining or examining merchandise to ascertain whether it is
obscene is not a very popular type of thing. Anybody who acts in the
capacity of a censor, or if the w^ord "censorship" is used, you are using
a dirty word. It is a little difficult to come up wdth a real definition of
what constitutes obscenity.
We have a number of problems. One of them was referred to in
prior testimony. It deals with this problem of what is a nudist
magazine and what is a magazine which may be considered obscene.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have any exhibits there of seizures you have
made through your various offices?
Mr. FisHMAN. We have some samples of some of the things that we
have been doing a little discussion with. Some of these things have
been found objectionable and some have not. I brought along a few
samples of the type of imported art study publications that we are con-
stantly battling with. These are printed abroad. There are plenty
of them printed in this country. This type of thing is alleged to be
used by photographers and students of art.
Then we have the group of sunbathing type magazines, which give
us a lot of difficulty. And then, of course, we have the type of foreign
publications which we have found objectionable, as being porno-
graphic.
I have also brought along for examination by the committee some
of the situations that w^e have been able to correct. For example,
it was a popular thing, and still is for time to time, a piece of business
to advertise in college publications, that you can send away and buy
various types of photographs, and a sample of the type of photograph
you can buy is sent along. You can order by number.
If you order and your money happens to get through to the foreign
country, they will send you these photogi'aphs. Whenever we find
a concerted move to buy this type of thing, w^e notify the Post Office
Department, which issues a fraud order, and we stop the money from
leaving the United States to these foreign countries.
One of the things we are alert to and try to keep under control
is the importation of negatives. The importation of one negative can
result in the production of a couple of thousand copies in this country.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have many negatives that you have been
able
Chairman Kefauver. They will be filed as exhibits; also the nega-
tives. ^Ye will return them later, if you would like to have them.
65263—55 17
252 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. FiSHMAN. Some of them we would like to have back for our
evidence. We have recently made some large seizures.
Chairman KEFAU^^^.R. What do you call a large seizure?
Mr. FisHMAN. A couple of thousand negatives and prints, and so
on, and so forth — various assortments. For example, this sort of
thing. These are negatives and they are in series — complete series
of photographs which are subsequently printed and made into a book.
One set of these negatives can result in the production of a heck of
a lot of books.
These, of course, are from a current seizure and we would like to
get them back.
Chairman Kefau%t:r. Are they mainly pornogi-aphic?
Mr. Fishman. Yes. Some of them are not only pornogi'aphic but
they are filthy. I don't think we would have any difficulty proving
these are obscene. 1 put these aside separately and I would like to
get them back, if we could.
Chairman KEFAm^ER. Where do most of these things come from,
Mr. Fislmian?
Mr. Fishman. Oh, the nudist-type magazine; they are generally
shipped from France and Sweden. We get some from Finland, some
from Germany. It is pretty difficult to pinpoint them; they come
from all over.
Chairman Kefauver. Where do the films come from?
Mr. FisHarAX. We have difficulty with the commercial type of
motion-picture film, but that is generally not as hard to handle.
The real obscene type of film, we i)ick that sort of thing up infre-
quently. We have a little difficulty with that.
We had 1 seizure some time ago of about 3,000 feet of film on 1 reel,
and about half of it was made u]) of Mickey Mouse movies, and if our
inspector hadn't been persistent enough to run the entire thing about
halfway into the reel, he would never have found any of the objection-
able material. Obviously, that was prepared with a view of getting
it by us. Our surveillance is pi-etty tight and they very seldom at-
tempt to smuggle commercial obscene motion-picture film into the
United States.
Chairman Kefauver. As I understand it, on letters and things of
that sort, you have a staff that can only look at about 5 percent; is
that right?
Mr. Fishman. That is correct. We make a segregation of it. Our
people are pretty expert in determining from the size of the package
and the shipper what it contains. They try to segregate anything
which looks like it might be questionable, so that we do have a look
at it. The fact remains that we can only reach about 5 percent of all
of this imported mail.
Chairman Kefauver. Is there an effort made to send a great deal
of this stuff into the United States ?
Mr. Fishman. It ebbs and flows, depending on the situation in the
country. Every time the courts are apt to become liberal in their
interpretation of what is objectionable, there is an increase in this
type of thing.
^ Chairman Kefauver. When the courts crack down, then there isn't
much of it that comes in ?
Mr. Fishman. That is right. As a result of some of the recent/
rulings on motion-picture film, there was an increase of foreign mo-
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 253
tion-picture film into the United States, which we ordinarily would
hold up, which we did still hold up.
Chairman Kefauv'er. As a result of the Supreme Court decision,
has there been an increase?
Mr. FiSHMAN. That didn't help us very much, although we haven't
changed our vieAvs as a result of the ruling.
Chairman Ivefauver. You were not ruling out "just are," anyway,
were you ?
Mr. FisHMAN. No.
Chairman Kefauver. Whom are these consigned to when they come
over here ?
Mr. FisHMAN. There are a number of dealers in this area, and also
in areas throughout the United States, who receive commercial lots of
this type of magazine. They will, continue to bring in the type that
we will pass, and periodically will attempt to increase the number of
new magazines that they will produce. Some of them have been
held as strictly obscene, and those they stopped.
It is a constant cat and mouse situation. As we hold them up,
they go on to new publications and new titles.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you have a list available of the most fre-
quent consignees?
Mr. FiSHMAN. We can make up such a list.
Chairman Kefauver. Make it up and we will make it an official part
of the record. Also, describe the kind of material that is being con-
signed to them.
Where is it paid for? Is it paid for upon delivery — that is, the
freight ?
Mr. FisHMAX. It is usually shipped pursuant to a letter of credit
so that the funds are turned over to the shipper as soon as the shipment
leaves the foreign country.
Chairman Kefaua^er. After it reaches the port of New York and
the port of Boston, and the port of New Orleans, then it is shipped on,
or is it usually received in the port ?
Mr. FisiiMAx. i would assimie, judging by the quantities, that it is
distributed througliout the United States.
Chairman Kefauver. And then shipped further by truck or auto-
mobile ?
Mr. FiSHMAx. By truck or automobile^ — anything to avoid the Post
Office Department.
(Chairman Kefauver. They don't send this through the mails?
Mr. FisiiMAx. Not so far as we know.
Chairman Kefauver. I take it if the same ruler were applied to
material shipped in as is applied to what is sent through the mails, a
lot of this wouldn't get by ?
Mr. FisHMAN. That is right.
Chairman Kefai^ver. If you had the same definition under the
customs statute that you have in the postal statute, you would be
relieved of a whole lot of headaches?
Mr. FisiiMAx. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you reconunend that be done?
Mr. FiSHMAx. I do.
Chairman Kefauver. I can't see the logic prohibiting something
from going tlirougli the mail, and at the same time letting it come in.
Mr. FiSHMAx. It has been a loophole for a long time, but while it
254 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
has been called to the attention of many groups and committees up
until now nothing has been done about it. We testified to much the
feame problem before another committee, and I think the Post Office
Department and the Postmaster General will have lots to say on the
same subject.
Chairman Kefauver. That would be legislation that would stop a
lot of it, and help you with your troubles ?
Mr. FiSHMAN, That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. I am looking here at some of the big seizures
that you have made of 6,000 cases, or books or what.
Mr. FiSHMAN. May I see the photograph?
Chairman Kefauver. I was looking at some of the figures. The
importer and the size of the seizures you have made.
Mr. FisrorAN. Well
Chairman Kefauxt^r. There are about 15 or 18 of them, and all of
them seem to have been released except 2 of them.
Mr. FiSHMAN. They represent this so-called art type of magazine.
The ones that we have indicated as being released.
Chairman Kefauver. Sun Reviews, and so forth?
Mr. FiSHMAN. I brought along some of that type of publication.
Chairman Kefaiwer. Do we ship much of this stuff out of the
United States to other nations?
Mr. FiSHMAN. I am afraid I couldn't answer that question.
Chairman Kefaiwer. That doesn't come under your jurisdiction?
Mr. FiSHMAN. We have some control over exports, but we don't
look for that sort of thing.
Chairman Ivefauver. These photographs show how it is received ?
Mr. FiSHMAN. That is correct.
Chairman Kefau\-er. Let them be identified and be put in as ex-
hibits.
(The photographs were marked "Exhibit 22," and are on file with
the subcommittee.)
Chairman Kefauver. You have a fine service, and you do your work
and sometimes get a little cooperation and a little praise. I hope this
subcommittee can help get this law in shape so that your enforcement
problem will be easier. .
Senator Danger. The Senate last year passed a law prohibiting
transportation by automobile and by plane. It didn't pass the House.
I want the witness to know that it has had some consideration down
there in Washington.
Chairman Kefaumsr. I think you will be interested in knowing as a
result of the work of this subcommittee we have a bill through the
Senate prohibiting the shipment in automobiles, strengthening our
customs laws and postal laws, and it has been over in the House, and
since the hearings started up here the House Judiciary Committee
has brought out the bill favorably, so it looks like we may get some
action in this session of Congress.
We want to encourage you in your work and we appreciate you
telling us your problems.
We will* keep these exhibits separate and return them to you.
Thank you very much.
Let's have about a 5-minute recess at this time.
(A short recess was taken.)
Chairman Kefauver. ^Vlio is the next witness ?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shomer or Mr. A. M. Shapiro.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 255
Chairman Kefau\ter. Mr. Shomer or Mr. Shapiro.
We will let the siibpena be made part of the record and. Mr. Mar^
shal, will you notify Mr. Shapiro if he is not here before the hearing
closes this afternoon he will be held in contempt for failing to answer
the subpena ?
Mr. Chumbris. Has Mr. Shomer come yet ?
Joseph Piccarelli ?
Chairman IvEFAmT^R. Mr. Chumbris, will you check which wit-
nesses appeared and which ones are missing?
Mr. Butler, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be
the whole truth, so help you God ?
TESTIMONY OF IT. GEORGE BUTLER, DALLAS POLICE DEPART-
MENT, DALLAS, TEX., INVESTIGATOR FOR THE SUBCOMMITTEE
Mr. Chumbris. Give your full name and address, and your official
title for the record, please. ^
Lieutenant Butler. George Butler, 6447 Vehisco Street, Dallas,
Tex., investigator for the committee.
Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show Lieutenant Butler is on
loan from the Dallas Police Force, and he is one of the outstanding
police officers in Dallas. We had him on loan for our Senate Crime
Investigating Committee, where he did a very remarkable job, and we
appreciate him being with us now.
Also, he has acted in the investigation of the waterfront problems
here, some of which were presented by our committee, and most of
which were brought out by the New York Crime Commission.
Proceed. . o- •
Mr. Chumbris. Lieutenant Butler, you know one Simon Simring
operating in the southern part of the United States 'i
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ciii' mbris. Did you investigate that particular matter ?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Is Simon Simring under subpena of this subcom-
mittee ?
liieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Mr. (yiiuMBRis. Would you please explain why he isn't here?
lieutenant Buixer. The United States marshal hasn't been able
to locate him.
Mr. Chumbris. Have you personally investigated the Simring
matter ?
lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chi'ivibris. Will you please tell us now in your own words the
result of the investigation ?
Lieutenant Butler. Well, to condense the investigation, I have
draAvn up a little brief on it. If it is permissible, I would like to
read it into the record.
Chairman Kefauver. All right. Lieutenant Butler. These facts you
know of your own knowle<%e from your official investigation?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Chairman Ki:fauver. Go ahead and read the report.
Lieutenant Butler (reading) :
This man is regarded as one of the largest dealers in pornography in the
southeastern section of the Nation. While no complete rundown on this subject
is available at this time, it is known that he was arrested in St. Petersburg,
256 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Fla., on April 23, 1952, for possession of obscene literature, film, and other
material.
At that time he gave his address as 540 Northwest 39th Street, Miami, Fla.
While out on bond in this case Simring was arrested on July 19, 1953, in Johnson
City, Tenn., on a similar charge. Apparently he forfeited the $54.50 cash bond
in this case. No disposition is shown.
On February 11, 1953, he was arrested with another large load of lewd and
obscene material in Atlanta, Ga.
On April 23, 1953, he was charged on four counts in connection with this case.
He was fined $1,000 and given 12 months on each count, all sentences being
suspended. Still another charge resulting from this arrest was nolle prossed
on December 16, 1953 (Exhibit 1 — Police Record from Atlanta, Ga.).
Simring went to trial in the St. Petersburg court on June 24, 1953. He was
sentenced to 4 years in Judge Bird's court. This trial was a result of charges
filed against him on the arrest and seizure in that city on April 23, 1952. He
appealed his case and was released on bond (letter from J. R. Reichert, chief of
police in St. Petersburg, Fla., entered as exhibit 2 with police mug of Simring).
While out on bond in the St. Peter.sburg case, and under susijended sentences
in 3 counts in Atlanta, Ga., Simring was arrested on April 30, 1955, in Orange-
burg, S. C. A very large seizure of pornography material was maae by the
Orangeburg police department, and an outstanding investigation of Simring
was made by Police Chief T. E. Salley. This investigation is still in progress.
In this seizure were 134 rolls of obscene film, S-millimeter and l(>-millimeter ;
1,276 folders of lewd and obscene photographs, 12 in a folder ; 512 folders of
obscene photographs, 20 in a folder ; 663 stereo slides of obscene nature ; 1,900
color slides of nudes and suggestive poses : 61 books of printed material and pic-
tures, "Permanent Virgin" and "Switcli"; .330 boolcs of very lewd printed mate-
rial with illustrations titled "Alcohol," "Search," "Dark Paths," and "Nora's
Sister" ; 120 envelopes containing 10 each very lewd pictures ; 567 various rubber
novelties (inventory's exhibit 3).
A large roadmap of the southeastern section of the United States was found
in possession of Simring — 175 cities and towns were circled on this map (see
exhibit 4 with page listing cities).
Simring was also in possession of customer list with 243 names listed. He had
a card index file reflecting customer and contacts in 21 States and Washington,
D. C. The index file carried 1,194 names. It is interesting to note that the list
contained names and addresses of well-known dealers in the pornography racket,
including :
Stanley Jablonski, 3510 Washington Avenue, Jacksonville, Fla.
Louis Shomar, 1541 East Fifth Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Harvey Brill, Baltimore, Md.
Red Florence, care of ABC Film Co., Houston, Tex.
Ike Dorfman, Baltimore, Md.
Frank Adler, 368 West 57th Street, New York City.
It will be interesting to note, at this point, that a lead furnished by this sub-
committee out of Simring's address book resulted in a large iwrnography raid
on E. "Red" Florence, 9362 Friendly Road, in Houston, Tex., by Sheriff C. V.
Buster Kerns and Chief Deputy Lloyd Frazier. The outstanding work and
cooperation of Sheriff Kerns and his staff is to be commended.
A comparison of the material seized from Simring shows it to be the same type
handled by Lewis C. Allen, arrested in Memphis, Tenn. ; Eddie Levy, arrested
in Connecticut ; Abraham llubin and Al Stone, arrested in Detroit, Mich ; Arthur
Herman Sobel, arrested in Rhode Island ; Wyman Parr, arrested in Atlanta, Ga. ;
Abe Rotto, arrested in Brooklyn, N. Y. ; Casimer Wargula, arrested in Buffalo
N. Y. ; and Eddie Mishkin, arrested in the New York area.
Simring is out now on a 30-day leave, his sentence, and it was during
this period we tried to get a hold of him but were unable to do so.
Chairman Kefauver. I understand, Mr, Butler, he has been under
probation in Atlanta, and was found doing business and arrested in
Johnson City and somewhere else ?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. From the time he was arrested in St.
Petersburg, Fla., he was arrested in Tennessee, Atlanta, Ga., and
Orangeburg, S. C. He was out on bond in the St. Petersburg case.
Chairman Kefauver. Let these charts concerning Simring's opera-
tions be inserted here.
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258 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefaiwer. Anything; else, Mr. Chnmbris ?
Your investigation showed him to be one of the hirgest ones operat-
ing in the southern part of tlie country ?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes. These people seemed to have a definite
territory that they operate in. It is more or less like a traveling sales-
man in any other business. They have a regular route that they
cover.
Chairman Kefal^er. This Houston, Tex., gang that was busted up
as a result of this lead, was that a substantial one ?
Lieutenant Blttler. Yes, sir; that was a large seizure.
Chairman KErAU\'ER. Who was the man that ran that ?
Lieutenant Butler. E. Eed Florence.
Chairman Kefauver. He has recently been convicted ?
Lieutenant Butler. No; he was recently arrested. He is under
charges in Houston, Tex., as of now.
Chairman Kefau\"er. Senator Langer, any questions ?
Senator Langer. They divided up the territory ?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. They seemed to o])erate in various
territories like that, and they get to be known ; they are shipped around
to some territory where tlieir faces are not known.
Senator Langer. Could 3'ou furnish the subcommittee with a map
to show how it is divided and who is boss in each district ?
Lieutenant Butler. I don't have that information yet. Here is a
man operating in a southern section; here is a man operating more to
the Midwest. This shows in eft'ect the places that were covered by the
raid in Houston, Tex. Up here is shown the same cities were marked
where pornography was sold to juveniles, in the cities in the black
here — the Southwest distributorship here.
Over here, in this Baltimore deal, the stuff coming to Xew York,
and is being parceled out all over the United States.
Chairman Kefauver. That is from Baltimore ?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir. The stuff is sent to these distributors,
which would be called a wholesaler, and it is our understanding that
each one of these people sell material in that area that they work.
Senator Langer. Would you go so far that a few men have a monop-
oly on this business ?
Lieutenant Butler. They are trying to get it.
Senator Langer. Senator Kefauver would be very interested in
that. Have you got considerable evidence that it is divided up in
territories ?
Lieutenant Blttler. Yes, sir. They seem to work a vast territory
like this. Each man has a different locality. They don't seem to en-
croach on each other's territory.
Chairman Kefauater. We will go further into this in our Los
Angeles hearings. We have some information already as to opera-
tions in the western part of the country. After those hearings have
been completed, I think we will be able to get a nationwide picture
of operations, some of whioli we do not have established in our testi-
mony as yet.
Mr. Chumbris. Lieutenant, have you examined any of the films and
pictures that have been confiscated fi'om Simring?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Have you observed the age of some of the actors
in those films and pictures ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 259
Lieutenant Butler. In Simring's seizure, I don't recall any juve-
niles. There is evidence that the same type of material distributed
by Simring has been picked up on various school grounds in the sec-
tion that he operated in.
Mr. Chumbris. Then his material has gotten to the juveniles in
those areas?
Lieutenant Butler. The same type of material ; yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you have some of the samples that you
can make exhibits here?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Let them be marked as exhibits.
They will be ])art of the record here.
Lieutenant Butxer. The film that he had
Chairman Kefauver. Make them exhibits, too.
(Sam})]es T)f pornography were marked "Exhibit No. 23," and
are on file with the subcommittee.)
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know of your own knowledge that some
more film that has been picked up from Simring had been sent to
tlie subcommittee in Washington?
Lieutenant Butler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And you don't know of your own knowledge
wliether there were any minors being participants in those films?
Lieutenant Butler. No, sir; I haven't seen them.
Chairman Kefauver. Any questions. Senator Langer?
Senator Langer. Do you have any evidence at all that women are
mixed up in this business ?
Lieutenant Bltler. Yes, sir. They play an important part in the
posing of these pictures. You mean in the distribution of it, Senator ?
Senator Langer. What I want to know is whether there were any
women mixed up in the manufacturing, printing, mailing it, dis-
tributing it?
Lieutenant Butler. No, the only women we know of so far are the
women that posed for the pictures.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you. Lieutenant Butler, very much.
We appreciate your good work in this other field.
Mr. Chumbris. Has Mr. Weiss come in yet, the attorney for Mr.
Kubin ?
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Eubin, you come back around here.
You have been in touch with your counsel ?
Mr. Rubin. I have tried to get in touch with him, but he wasn't in.
Chairman Kefauver. He hasn't called to ask for any delay or ex-
tension of the hearing?
Mr. Rubin. He told me to ask you, but if it is all right with you,
1 want to go ahead with it.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you ready to go ahead?
Mr. Rubin. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. You have got it written out there?
Mr. Rubin. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. You have got your counsel's advice on a piece
of paper; is that right?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Chumbris, will you make a brief state-
ment about the nature of your questions, and what you expect to bring
out by the testimony of Mr. Rubin, or have you done that ?
260 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. Our investigation reveals that Mr. Abraham Rubin,
alias Al Rubin, alias Abraham Rubinstein, alias Stoney Rubin White,
alias Al Stone, is one of the large distributors of pornography through-
out the United States, that he has contacts in many of the cities such
as Chicago, St. Louis, New York City, Washington, D. C, Jackson-
ville, Fla. ; he has been connected with E. Red Florence, of Houston,
Tex., and Simon Simring, of Miami, Fla., as well as Eddie Mishkin,
who was here this afternoon.
We have information that this pornographic material is distrib-
uted and gets into the hands of juveniles and definitely has an impact
on youth and juvenile delinquency.
Chairman Kefauver. Is it distributed across State lines?
Mr. Chumbris. It is distributed across many State lines. At least
20 States have been listed in areas where Al Stone distributes this
pornographic material. The police chiefs of Detroit and Chicago
were here and testified, and they definitely know of the operations of
Al Stone, alias Abraham Rubin, as well as Inspector Blick, who also
testified during the course of these hearings.
Chairman Kefauver. Their testimony is in the record and if nec-
essary it will be made part of any special record.
You ask Mr. Stone any questions you have to ask him.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM RUBIN, BROOKLYN, N. Y.— Resumed
Mr. Chumbris, Will you please give your full name and address for
the record again, please?
Mr. Rubix. Abraham Rubin, 1639 41st Street, Brooklyn.
Mr. Chumbris. Are you also known as Al Stone ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of tlie Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Rubin, you have been here in the hearing
room when we have had other witnesses who have taken the fifth
amendment. We don't want to deny it to you or to any other witness
whose testimony would, indeed, tend to incriminate you. It seems
to me this is a proper question. The purpose of this subcommittee will
be to ask that the full committee cite you for contempt if you refuse
to answer this question. It will then be sent to the district atorney,
who will present it to the grand jury, if he wishes to, and there will be
a trial if a true bill is found.
I feel that I must warn you of the intention of this subcommittee,
and also order you to answer that question.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Let the record show that Mr. Rubin has a
piece of paper that he is reading from.
Ask him the next question.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, alias Mr. Stone
Chairman Kefau\t:r. Just say Mr. Rubin.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, do you know Frank Leno, alias Frank
Uderri, of Chicago, 111.?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. The chairman orders you to answer under
penalty
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 261
Mr. KuBix, I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
tlie fifth amendment of tlie Constitution.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Stanley Jablonski, of Jacksonville,
Fla.?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Let's ask the question in a different way. Do
you know Stanley Jablonsky, who is purported to have some connec-
tion with pornogi-aphic literature, in Jacksonville, Fla. ?
Mr. Rubin. 1 refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer under
the penalty of being in contempt of the United States Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. What business are you in ?
Mr. Rubin, I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman KEFAu^'ER. In any business that you might be in, do you
employ children or teen-agers?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are oi'dered and directed to answer under
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You know what the immunity provision is?
Mr. Rubin. My rights of the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are fully apprised of your rights and the
j)enalties that go with the refusal to answer ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you tell us, Mr. Rubin, what information
you have about what the fifth amendment is'^
Mr. Rubin. Constitutional rights.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you talk with your lawyer about it ?
Mr. Rubin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Who wrote out this piece of paper where you
have that ?
Mr. Rubin. My lawyer.
Chairman Kefauver. Did the lawyer just tell you to read that when-
ever you were asked a question ?
Mr. Rubin. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. Is that right?
Mr. Rubin. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. You are answering some questions. Did he
say to you "Use your own judgment"?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Senator Danger. Do you know who is the President of the United
States?
262 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Senator Langer. Did you ever hear of Abraham Lincoln ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of tlie Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. We will order to direct you to answer that
question under penalty of bein^ in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amencbnent of the Constitution.
Mr. CiiuMBRis. Mr. Rubin, I hand you an exhibit, which contains a;,
front-face photograph and side-view photograph with "Department
of Police, Detroit, No. 109385, FBI No. ()08419, in the name of Abra-
ham Rubin," and I show it to you, and ask you if you can identify
that ? Do you have any knowledge of that photograph ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer undei- the imminiity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chainnan Kefauver. The Chairman orders you to answer under
penalty of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immuuity proAnsions of the
fifth amendment of the (Constitution.
Chairman Kkfaiver. This has been made part of the record, and
will be filed as an exhibit.
Mr. Rubin, I think you ought to understand that the fifth amend-
ment is for the real protection of people when they are called upon
to testify. It is not a provision that is to be used just for coving up
or to prevent a Senate committee from securing facts that it is entitled
to have. Our purpose here is to get information. I think you ought
to think seriously about what you are doing here today.
Is there anything that you will tell us about your business, Mr.
Rubin ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the imnuniity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are directed and ordered to and under
penalty of being held in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I i-efuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution,
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, I show you a record of the Detroit Police
Department, No. 109385, in the name of Abraham Rubin, FBI No.
608419, and attached thereto is a photo, one is a side view, one is a front
view^, the front-view picture contains a notation "Detroit Police,
5-19-53," with the number of 109385, which is consistent with the
number that I just read, of the Detroit Police Department. I show it
to you and ask you if you can identify it, and if that is your picture?
Mr. Rubin. 1 refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Keiauver. Let the exlnbit which counsel asked about, be
marked so that we can see what it is.
You are ordered and directed to answer the question under penalty
of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. RuTBiN. I refuse to answer under the innnunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Chumbris. May I introduce into the record a road map of the
Northeastern part of the United States ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 263
Chairinaii Kefauv'er. That will be introduced into the record today.
Mr. CiiUMHRis. Mr. Rubin, I have here an AAA road map, Ameri-
can Automobile Association, covering the Northern States, and in this
map it shoves circles in a reddish purple color, with circles marked
around the cities of New York, Richmond, Va ; Louisville, Ky. ; St.
Louis, Mo. ; Indianapolis, Ind. ; Fort Wayne, Ind., an area covering
the cities of Michiaan City, New Bulfalo, Michigan City being in
Indiana, and New Buffalo being in Michigan; Detroit, Mich., and in
the same map there is a green road identification covering those same
cities which indicates a route map prepared by the AAA for those
States.
Have you ever seen this particular map before, and was it not taken
from your possession by the Detroit police department ?
Chairman KErAU\TER. Ask the first cjuestion.
Mr. CiiUMBRis. Have you seen this map before ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefaui^er. You are ordered to answer under the penalty
of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
(^hairman Kefauver. Let it be Exhibit 24.
(The map Avas marked "Exhibit No. 24," and is on file with the
subcommittee.)
I think you said it was found in his car, and other evidence shows
that ]Mr. Rubin was in these towns set forth on the map.
Mr. Chumbris. That is correct.
Chairman Kefaum^r. All right.
Mr. Chumbris. I again show you this particular map, and wasn't
this map, marked "Exhibit No. 24," covering the cities heretofore
mentioned, the same map tliat was taken from your car, in your pos-
session, on or about the 19th day of May 1953 by the Detroit, Mich.,
police department?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are directed to answer under penalty of
contem])t.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Senator Langer. Mr. Chairman, I note that Mr. Abraham Rubin
got 6 months susj^ended sentence in Poughkeepsie for possessing ob-
scene literature, in 1982, on November 23.
On the 24th of February, 1923, he was fined $250 and costs, and a
suspended sentence of 6 months in jail, at Darien, Connecticut.
On the 4th day of May, 1933, he was sentenced to 3 months in Erie
County Penitentiary, in Buffalo, N. Y.
On the 5th day of April, 1933, for violating section 1141 of the
United States Code, he got 3 months.
I find, on the 14th day of February, 1934, according to the Detroit
police record, for possessing obscene literature, he got a $75 fine or 30
days in the county jail in New York.
In 1934, for possessing obscene literature, he got 30 days in Provi-
dence, R. I.
264 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
On the 4th day of July, 1934, for possessing obscene literature, he got
30 days and costs.
On the 18th day of May, 1953, for possessing obscene literature in
Detroit, Mich., he got $100 and 90 days in jail.
It seems to me that if that be the record, we should draw up legisla-
tion that would provide for a second and third and fourth offense that
the penalty be more stringent. If this record is correct — and there is
no reason to believe that it is not, we find here after the sixth offense for
possessing obscene literature, Mr. Rubin received a $100 fine or 90 days
in jail.
In New York we have the Sullivan law — we have a law which pro-
vides for four felonies a man gets life. Yet we have the absurd situ-
ation where, for a sixth offense, a man pays a $100 fine.
Chairman Kefauver. Your comments and suggestions are good.
Senator Langer, and I agree with you that a man with this long record,
still showing no heavy penalties, is not very effective law enforcement.
It may be that these different places did not know about his previ-
ous record, but certainly as to Federal convictions, to the extent that it
comes under the Federal law, will, in the future — I will ask the staff
to consider and make a study of just what we can do to have some more
severe penalties as time goes on.
Senator Langer. I will be happy to be a cosponsor.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you. We will cosponsor it together.
Mr. Rubin, let me see if I can get clear again just what your lawyer
told you with reference to pleading this fifth amendment.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Senator Langer. Did I hear you say your lawyer was a member of
the city council of the city of New York ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Did the attorney advise you to invoke your
privilege on every question that was asked ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you mean that the advice your attorney
gave you might incriminate you if related to this committee?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. What did your lawyer say to you in his
office at that time when you went to him for counsel ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefau\'er. You mean again to say that any advice you
may have gotten would cause you any trouble if related here, that it
might incriminate you ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Any other questions?
Mr. Chumbris. I have just one more exhibit.
Chairman Kefauver. All right.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Rubin, I have here a photostatic copy of a
name and address book of Al Stone, also known as Abraham Rubin,
which address list has in it numerous names, one of which is Abe
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 265
Rotto, New York City; another, Eddie, telephone number,
SP 9-3384
Chairman Kefafvek. Let it be filed as an exhibit — and ask him
about it.
(The address book was marked "Exhibit No. 25," and is on file with
the subcommittee.)
Chairman Kefauver, Do you know anything about that list?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
tlie fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You are ordered and directed to answer
imder penalty of being in contempt of the Senate.
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. Let the purported address book be made an
exhibit.
Mr. Rubin, I want you to understand again that the members of
tliis subcommittee do not intend to let you get by with your refusal
to answer questions propounded to you here. Complaints have come
to us, in correspondence, that you are one of the biggest operator
in this despicable pornography field in the whole United States;
that you have connections with people all over the country ; that you
have been in this business a long time. You seem not to have learned
any lesson from this long list of arrests and convictions. It is unfor-
tunate that you do not appreciate the damage that your kind of
business is doing to the young people in this country.
I want to tell you again tliat we expect to do everytliing in our
power to secure a contempt proceeding against you, unless you, at
this time, want to answer questions and tell us what the subcommittee
has a right to know — in other words, purge yourself of any possible
contempt.
Do you have anything further you want to say ?
Mr. Rubin. I refuse to answer under the immunity provisions of
the fiftli amendment of the Constitution.
Chairman Kefauver. You remain under subpena, and you will be
hearing from this committee and other officials later on.
Mr. Shomer, Avill you come around?
TESTIMONY OF LOU SHOMER, BROOKLYN, N. Y.— Resumed
Mr. Sliomer has been here. Mr. Chumbris, do you have anything
else you want to ask him?
Mr. Chumbris. Since you were on the stand the other day
C'liairman Kefauver. That was last Thursday.
Mr. Chumbris. Last Tluu'sday, to be exact, we have received some
additional information tliat we would like to have your comment on,
I believe you testified tliat you are in the real estate business at this
time ?
Mr. Sh(»mer. Yes, sir.
Mr. ChI'Mbris. How long have you been in the real estate business?
Mr. Shomer. About 2 months.
Mr. Chumbris. I believe you testified that you have no further in-
terest in i)()rnographic matters; is that correct?
Mr. Sii<):\!ER. Re}jeat the (luestion.
Chairman Kefauver. He wants to know if you have any further
connection with any pornographic literature business.
266 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Chairman KErAu\TER. Is your answer "No" ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you answering the question?
Mr. Shomer. I am answering "No."
Mr. Chu3ibris. Mr. Shomer, from our investigation, it reveals that
last year you traveled by automobile to the State of New York, Port
Chester, to be exact, and at- Port Chester, at a Safeway store, at the
parking lot, transferred some pornographic material in large quanti-
ties to another person.
Is that true or false?
Mr. Shomer. That is false. I have never been to Port Chester. I
don't even know where it is.
Mr. Chumbris. That statement that I just made, then, in your
opinion, is false; is that correct?
Mr. Shomer. I have never been in Port Chester.
Chairman Kefauver. Or any place around there ?
Mr. Shomer. I don't know the area.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shomer, did you ever make any transfer of
pornogi^aphic material in any parking lot of a grocery store or a
drug store?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And any information that you have done such is
false ; is that your statement ?
Mr. Shomer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Shomer, do you know Edgar Maynard Levy?
Mr. Shomer, No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. You do not ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chu:mbris. Do you know of one Edgar Maynard Levy, who
lives on Tinker Drive, Long Island, now living in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris, Do you know anyone on Tinker Drive in Long
Island?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Ciiu:mbris, Mr, Shomer, have you ever done any business with
Eddie Mishkin?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr, Chumbris, Have you ever done any business with Al. Stone?
Mr, Shomer, No, sir,
Mr, Chumbris, Alias Abraham Kubin ?
Mr, Shomer, No, sir.
Mr, Chumbris, Were you here when the witness prior to you
testified?
Mr, Shomer, Yes, sir,
Mr, Chumbris, Do you know that person ?
Mr, Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. You have never seen him before?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chu3ibris. Let the record indicate that the witness previous
to Mr, Shomer was Al, Stone, alias Abraham Rubin,
Mr. Shomer, do you know George Fodor, of Washington, D, C, and
St. Petersburg, Fla. ?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 267
Mr. Chumbris. Were you present last Thursday when Mr. George
Fodor was here on the witness stand ?
Mr. SiioMER. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. You were not present?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know Mr. Ike Dorman, of Bahimore, Md.?
Mr. Shomer. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you liave any knowledge of George Fodor and
Ike Dorman coming from Baltimore to New York City?
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Chumbris?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. A. M. Shapiro. Has Mr. A. M. Shapiro come
in?
(There was no response.)
Chairman KErAU\'ER. Mr. Shapiro has not turned up. We will
recommend that he be held in contempt for not obeying the subpena
of the subcommittee.
Senator Langer. I so move, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Without objection, it is so ordered and that
will be the recommendation of the whole subcommittee.
I think I have already ordered the subpena and the return to be
made a Dart of the record as an exhibit.
(Tlie'subpena and the return were marked "Exhibit No. 26," and
are as follows:)
United States of America
congress of the united states
To Aaron Moses Shapiro,
^0 East 23d Street, Neir York City, Greeting:
Pursuaut to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before
the Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the
United States, on May 24, lO.jr), at 10 o'clock a. m., at their committee room 104,
United States Court "House, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., then and tliere to
testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by
said committee, and" bring with you copies of your State and Federal income tax
returns for the years 1950 to 1954, inchisive : records of your business, including
bank books, bank statements, check books and check stubs, profit and loss state-
ments, statements of assets and liabilities, and all documents reflecting your in-
terest in property, real, personal or mixed.
Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties
in such cases made and provided.
To U. S. Marshal, Southern District of New York, to serve and return.
Given under my hand, by order of the committee, this 19th day of May, in the
year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five.
EsTES Kefauver,
Chairman. Suheommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency.
Received this writ at New York, N. Y., on INIay 19, 19").-), and (m May 19, 19-1.^,
at 40 East 23d Street, New York, N. Y., I served it on the within-named Aaron
Moses Shapiro by leaving a copy thereof or a subpena ticket with him.
Thomas J. Lunney,
Vnited States Marshal, Southern. District of New York.
By James Gupp,
Deputy United States Marshal, Southern District of Netv York.
Chairman Kefauver. I may say as to Mr. Shapiro that there is a
possibility there has been some mixup in the notice getting to his
lawyer, but he will either testify or we will have contempt proceed-
ing brought against him. If there is a mixup, he will be given a chance
to testify later.
65263—55 18
268 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Is there anybody else ?
Mr. Chumrris. Joseph Piccarelli.
(There was no response.)
Chairman Kefauver. Let the subpena be put in the record. We
will ask that he be held in contempt for failure to appear.
Senator Langer. I so move, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(The subpena was marked ''Exhibit No. 27," and is as follows:)
United States of America
congress of the united states
To Joseph Piccarellie,
119-18 178 Place, St. Albans, N. Y., Greetings :
Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before
the Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the
United States, on May 23, 1955, at 10 o'clock a. m., at their committee room 104,
United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., then and there to
testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration
by said committee.
Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties
in such cases made and provided.
To United States marshal. Eastern District of New York, to serve and return.
Given under my hand, by order of the committee, this 19th day of May, in
the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five.
EsTES Kefauver,
Chairman, Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency.
Chairman Kefauver. Senator Lanfjer, do you have any comments
you wish to make before we bring our hearings to a conclusion?
Senator Langer. I have nothing to say, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Kefauver. I want to state briefly for the record a few
observations.
The subcommittee last year held some hearings into the operation,
publishing, and distribution of pornographic literature, films — things
of that sort.
This year we have received a great many complaints from parents
and from young people themselves, police officers, of the increased
amount of pornography that is being distributed around, getting into
the hands of young people, teen-agers, many of whom are in school.
These letters indicate the damaging effect and the degrading effect
that they have.
We have talked with a number of experts in the field; they have
confirmed the fact that it is a contributing factor, and a substantial
one, in the increase of the nimiber of sex crimes and the increase of
juvenile delinquency.
So that the staff has made this investigation, and I think they have
done a very fine job in getting such information as they could.
We came here to New York not because New York is any worse than
any other city. As a matter of fact, many public officials here and
private people have done much to eliminate the extent of pornography
in New York, for which they deserve commendation.
Some of these groups, as the evidence shows, do do business here.
This is a port of entry, and the place for bringing all of our witnesses
together in one place, and we thouglit this would be the proper place
for this hearinof.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 269
The heariiifis sliowed, first, the effect of all this material on the
youno; people by a i)sycliiatrist, a criminoloojist, and by people who
are familiar with dea]in<r witii youno- peo]ile.
The public <i;ener:illy does not understand the extent of this business.
I think the heariu^js luive shown that it is big business — our investiga-
tion does: — that the operation in it is extensive.
We have not in this hearing gone into the fringe cases, to any extent,
of literature which many people claim is also damaging, because we
have not wanted to get into any dispute about censorship.
We have found that Avhile the use of the mails is prohibited, even the
mail statute is insufficient ; that it is carried in automobiles and other
methods of conveyance in interstate commerce, and there is a definite
loophole here that should be plugged. Also the customs laws, as we
have found, are inadequate, and we hope to strengthen them to prevent
this stuff from being imported from other countries.
We will take into consideration other recommendations such as
those made by Mr. Norman Thomas in his appearance liere — the rec-
ommendations for the confiscation of the vehicle in which the material
may be transported and other material in connection with it, such as
the projectors and the cameras, where films are used.
Unquestionably, pornography is one of the contributing factors to
the increase in juvenile delinquency and sex crimes in the United
States. We have been derelict at all levels of government in our vigor
in dealing with them. Local communities have done much; they
could do more. States have started to improve their enforcement and
their statutes. I think the Federal (xovernment has perliaps been
more derelict than any other level of government in not bringing our
laws up to date.
We mean this subcommittee to try to see to it that the Federal Gov-
ernment does its part. That is why we have had these hearings, and
we think they have been very important hearings.
We hope that law-enforcement agencies and all other levels of
government will do their part.
We have information Avhich will be helpful, which has been brought
out in this hearing, to law-enforcement officers and other sections.
Our staff' and our subconnnittee are ready to cooperate with them.
We are glad to see some healthy developments in better enforcement
at the State level. We hope that they will more adequately do their
part.
I am impressed, though, in the final analysis, that citizen and parent
interest, public interest in the problem, is the surest way of eliminating
this evil. Public interest not only will bring about law enforcement
and remedial legislation, but it will bring about affirmative action at
the community level. Tn communities where they have banded to-
gether, like Jersey City and Boston, many other places, they have been
able to stop this filth from circulating.
I feel and I hope that this will be coming about ; that in communi-
ties throughout the ITnited States — partly, at least as a I'esult of these
hearings- — we are going to see a lot of activity at the local level.
I want to again thank the judges, Judge Clarke and Judge Bondy,
and the wonderful superintendent and staff of the Federal court-
house, Mr. Carmichael from the district attorney's office, who has been
sitting in, and many others, for their cooperation and assistance
to us.
270 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Our hearings have been a little bit disrupted from time to time,
and the press has been very patient and has stayed with us.
We will write letters to the Department of Justice, the Attorney
General, commending the many marshals who have helped us, who
have served the subpenas, and who have looked after the courtroom.
I think I should announce that the subcommittee will have a further
hearing later on in New York, at which time some of the fine efforts
being made by the public officials and the people, churches, schools, and
commissions and groups to combat juvenile delinquency, to give our
children a better opportunity, to make parents more aware of their
responsibility will be gone into.
There will be other problems that will be brouglit out in the hearings
which we will hold later on in New York.
Mr. Gaughan, our assistant counsel, has been arranging for these
hearings, and he will be the acting counsel to j^resent them.
I don't know the exact time Ave will have our hearings; that will be
announced later on.
Other hearings in connection with pornographic material — or other
evidence in connection with it — will be brought out in hearings in
other parts of the country, })articularly in our Los Angeles hearings —
not operations in Los Angeles, because they have been quite diligent
there, but Los Angeles will be the center of our hearings in the
West just as New York has been here.
The district attorney here will be furnished a copy of the record
for any possible perjury, and we will be calling upon the district
attorney, we hope, for cooperation in connection with these contempt
cases.
I have already indicated the ones that Senator Langer and I will
reconnnend to the Senate to be held for contempt.
With that, this hearing will now be recessed subject to further call
of the chairman.
(A^^iereupon, at 5: 20 p. m. the hearing recessed, subject to the fur-
ther call of the chairman.)
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(Obscene and Pornographic Materials)
THURSDAY, JUNE 9, 1955
United States Senate,
Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary
To Investigai'e Juvenile Delinquency,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1 : 30 p. m., in room
457, Senate Office Building, Senator William Langer presiding.
Present: Senator Langer (presiding).
Also present: James H. Bobo, chief counsel; Peter N. Chumbris,
associate counsel; A'incent Gaughan, special counsel; and Edward Lee
McLean, editorial director.
Senator Langer. The meeting will come to order.
This is a continuation of the Subcommittee on Juvenile Delin-
quency, dealing with pornographic literature and any other matters
that may involve juvenile delinquency.
Will you proceed, Mr. Chumbris ?
Mr. Chumbris, I have an opening statement. Senator.
Senator Langer. Kead it.
Mr. Chumbris. This afternoon the United States Senate Subcom-
mittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency is holding its fourth
public hearing on obscene, lewd, and pornographic materials and its
impact on youth and juvenile delinquency.
The public hearings in New York City established the following:
(1) The nationwide traffic in the manufacture, distribution, and sale
of obscene, lewd, and pornographic material; (2) that obscene and
pornographic material reaches the youth and children of our Na-
tion ; (3) that juveniles are induced to pose as models in such insidious
filth; (4) that juveniles are induced to sell and distribute such filth
to their friends and classmates; (5) that obscene and pornogi'aphic
material has a direct impact on juvenile delinquency; (6) that psy-
chiatric testimony established the types of delinquencies and per-
verted activities that obscene, lewd, and pornographic material can
lead juveniles into; (7) that the traffic in pornography is a multi-
million-dollar business; and (8) that there is a need for corrective
legislation on the Federal, State, and local level to prohibit the dis-
tribution of pornographic material by mail, by common carrier, and
by private conveyance. The first two methods of distribution are now
violative of Federal law; however, amendments to those laws are
necessary to close the loopholes.
The Senate Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee has reported out
Senate bill 599, which prohibits the transportation in interstate com-
271
272 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
merce of obscene material. It was favorably passed by the Senate
and, during the course of these hearings, was favorably reported
by the House Judiciary Committee and yesterday was passed by
the House of Representatives.
Today we shall hear the attorney general of the State of North
Dakota, Leslie Burgum, who will testify as to the recent legislation in
the State of Nortli Dakota which is effective in curtailing the manu-
facture and distribution of pornography.
Also, Mr. William C. O'Brien and Mr. Harry J. Simon of the
United States Post Office Department will explain the procedures of
the Post Office Department in curbing the distribution by mail of
pornographic material and some of the problems that confront the
Post Office Department.
A fourth witness will be Inspector Roy Blick, who testified in the
New York hearings on the national picture but will present additional
material that has occurred since the hearings in New York. He will
also point out how effective law enforcement, through coordination
of Federal and local officials, can bring results in apprehending pro-
ducers, distributors, and sellers of pornography.
Since the hearings in New York, the subcommittee has been ad-
vised that two distributors of pornography have been apprehended
through coordination of the subcommittee and the peace officers of the
respective areas. Further details on these two matters will be brought
out in future hearings.
It is gratifying to the subcommittee that the press, the radio, tele-
vision, public officials, church leaders, civic leaders, and the very par-
ents themselves all over the country have strongly backed the subcom-
mittee's efforts on this drive against pornography and have urged the
subcommittee to greater effort to clean up the traffic that has contamin-
ated and will contaminate the minds of our youth and lead them into
possible delinquencies. The subcommittee is dedicated to do every-
thing in its power to protect the youth of the Nation from this in-
sidious filth.
Senator Danger. Call your first witness.
Mr. Chumbris. The first witness will be Inspector Blick.
Senator Danger. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are
about to give in the pending matter shall be the truth, the whole truth,,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Blick. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROY BLICK, INSPECTOR, METROPOLITAN POLICE
DEPARTMENT, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Senator Danger. You may proceed.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, would you please state your official title?
Mr. Blick. Inspector, Metroploitan Police DejDartment.
Mr. CiiUMBRTS. And what division do you have ?
Mr. Blick. Sex and perversion.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, you testified in New York City last week ;
is that right ?
Mr. Blick. I did. Week before last, I believe.
Mr. Chumbris. And since that time, Mr. Blick, have you had oc-
casion to make an arrest of a distributor of pornogi'aphy ?
Mr. Blick. I have.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 273
Mr. Chumbris. And would you please expluin at this time the man-
ner of the. arrest, and the person involved, and the modus operandi?
Mr. Blick. Back in Noveml)er of 195-1:, I had received confidential
information that a man by tlie name of Alfred Peter Selmer, from
Nanticoke, Pa., was bringing pornographic material, films, into the
District of Columbia, or carrying them through the District of Co-
lumbia.
On 2 or 3 occasions I had information that he was coming to the
District of Columbia, but we did not locate the gentleman. Yesterday
I received the same information, that he was entering the District of
Columbia, and I sent a lookout over the radio for a green Packard
bearing Pennsylvania tags, driven by Alfred Peter Selmer, white,
5 feet 91/2 inches, 172 pounds, blond hair, husky build.
Mr. Chumbris. For the record, would you spell his last name?
Mr. Blick. S-e-1-m-e-r. In about 45 minutes scout 83, driven by
Officer Campbell — and I forget the other officer's name — notified me
by phone that they had apprehended the automobile, and it was in
No. 8 precinct.
I went out there, and on the back seat of the automobile was 14
reels of film, 8 reels of positive, 6 reels of negative, about 10,000 feet
of film altogether. Now, the positive films are to make duplications
of films.
And he was on his way to some place — would not divulge where he
was going — to have 80,000 feet of film made from the positive film.
He was photographed, fingerprinted, and taken over. Due to the
way the law is written today, we had no proof that he had them in
his possession to show or to exhibit.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Blick, may I ask you a question at this point :
Wliere was Selmer from?
Mr. Blick. Nanticoke, Pa.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you wish to proceed?
Mr. Blick. He was brought back to my office, and I made him put
up a $300 bond. This morning he didn't show up in court. A
cash bond.
Mr. Chumbris. Was it a forfeiture ?
Mr. Blick. It was forfeited by the presiding judge that was on
the bench.
Mr. Chumbris. And can you state what the official charge against
him was?
Mr. Blick. I charged him with possession of pornographic films.
Mr. Chumbris. So there won't be any mistake of what pornographic
films mean, would you please define what you consider pornographic
films to be?
Mr. Blick. Male and female sexual relations, abnormal or cohab-
iting, in the nude.
Mr. Chumbris. And have you examined this particular film that
was picked up ?
Mr. Blick. One reel in his presence, to make definitely sure that
it was obscene and indecent.
Mr. Chumbris. And did that film have any specific description
or name?
Mr. Blick. It was called The Kinsey Report.
Mr. Chumbris. How long have you been with the vice squad?
Mr. Blick. Twenty-four years.
274 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. And you have had ^reat experience in indecent and
obscene fihns and pornographic material ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. Chumbris. And you would be in a position to testify as to
whether this particular film you saw was pornographic or not?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. In your opinion, was this film that you received
definitely pornographic film?
Mr. Blick. It was filth.
Mr. Chumbris. Could you tell from the film whether it was of recent
origin or an old film?
Mr. Blick. It would have to be of recent origin, for one reason:
The kinsey report has only been out recently; and all of the films
were new films, because I had to rewind them on reels.
Mr. Chumbris. And this one particular film, what would the footage
be on that film?
Mr. Blick. 400.
Mr. Chumbris. 400 feet. I understand that your entire seizure was
how many feet?
Mr. Blick. Close to 10,000.
Mr. Chumbris. 10,000 feet. You mentioned the 80,000 feet of film
made.
Could you exi^lain that further?
Mr. Blick. He was going to take the positive film to have duplica-
tions of what he had. The positive film makes negative film.
Mr. Chumbris. All right, sir.
For the record, will you please explain the procedure usually fol-
lowed bv these persons in first making a negative, then a positive, and
then another negative; will you please explain that procedure?
Mr. Blick. There is only one positive that is made, unless someone
is stealing the film themselves. Then from the positives you make
all the negatives you wish.
Mr. Chumbris' And that goes on so that the production is almost
unlimited? . .
Mr. Blick. You can make a billion feet of film all from one positive
if you wish to do so.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, this person Selmer ; has he ever been prosecuted
and convicted of any type of pornographic activity previous to this
offense ?
Mr. Blick. Not to my knowledge. He stated that he was doing
this for a friend of his up in Wilkes-Barre, Pa.
Mr. Chumbris. And would you please give the name and the address
of that person ?
Mr. Blick. Chester Wesensky.
Mr. Chumbris. And the address.
Mr. Blick. He runs the Big Chief Store in Wilkes-Barre, Pa.
He further stated— upon his person he had $1,485 on him, and he
stated that was the money to have the films made from the positive
prints.
Mr. Chumbris. Did he have a little black book, or name and address
book on him?
Mr. Blick. He had two.
Mr. Chumbris. And were you able to obtain some of the names and
addresses from those two books ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 275
Mr. Blick. I olaiiced through the book, but I have been so busy I
haven't had a chance to analyze tlie book like I would like to.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, from your glancing through the book and
from the known distributors and producers of pornography through-
out the United States that you know of your own knowledge and
that came out in our hearings in New York, did you recognize any
of the names and addresses of those persons in those two books?
Mr. Blick. Not connected with the factions up there; no, sir. This
seems to be another outfit.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, may I ask you this, that when you make a
more detailed studv of tliose two books, would you please submit to
the subcommittee the names and addresses from those two books?
Mr. Buck. I will be glad to.
Mr. Chumbris. Did he say where he was going from Washington ^
Mr. Blick. He did not.
Mr. Chumbris. Did he say where he had been, other than from his
home town ?
Mr. Blick. He had left that morning on his way to wherever he was
going.
Mr. Chumbris. And he wouldn't tell you where he was going i
Mr. Blick. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, as far as this man's particular case is con-
cerned, he forfeited the bond; is that correct?
Mr. Blick, Yes, sir.
Mr. Chu:mbris. And do you consider any further action against
this particular person at this time ?
Mr. Blick. Only a misdemeanor; that is all we can hope for.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, this Chester Wesensky, of the Big Chief Store,
in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., have you had any previous knowledge as to his
operations ?
Mr. Blick. I had not. He has a brother, under another name of
Stanley Wayne. Stanley Wayne is supposed to be the brother of
Chester, and he also goes'under the name of Stanley Wesensky.
Mr. Chumbris. And you know of his operations?
Mr. Blick. Yes ; I understand he is a big operator.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, do you have any approximation of the value
of the merchandise that was taken from Selmer yesterday?
Mr. Blick. It is according to who wants it. To me it would be worth
5 cents. To the ones that want it, to get the positive film, they would
jmy a large price for it. But the negative films sells for $25 on up,
for 100 feet.
Mr. Chumbris. $25 for 100 feet?
Mr. Blick. On up.
Mr. Chumbris. On up. Inspector, I would like to ask you a few
other questions, supplementing the testimony that you gave in New
York that there were 34 cases in the past 2" years involving porno-
graphic activities that came to the attention of your office; is that
right?
Mr. Blick. That is correct.
Mr. Chi^mbris. Now, I would like tc> ask you specifically of one
case where a person was aj^prehended between Sixth and Seventh
Streets, on Pennsylvania Avenue SE., in a second-story apartment.
Do you recall that case ?
Mr. Blick. I do. I was on the raid.
276 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. And would you please explain to us— first, isn't it
a fact in that particular case and the one across the way in Alexandria,
Va., involving the same person, that a juvenile was involved?
Mr. Blick. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. And would you explain the nature of that man's
activity and what he was caught doing?
Mr. Blick. Him and his partner — and his partner was an innocent
victim, he had no knowledge of what was going on, on the second
floor
Mr. Chumbris. First, would you give his name, for the record?
Senator Langer. Wait a minute. If that partner is innocent, we
don't want to use him.
Mr. Chumbris. Not the partner. The pei-son we are talking about.
Is it Borgard ?
Mr, Blick. That is right.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please explain, then, what this person
was involved in doing, and the action you took ?
Mr. Blick. I think the best thing to do is to tell you how I came
in touch with him.
Mr. Chumbris. Yes.
Mr. Blick. I had a young hidy come to my office and she stated
that she had been a fool, she had a couple of drinks too many, and
she liad had picture taken in the nude, over this radio shop. She
asked for the pictures, and they stated that the pictures didn't
turn out.
I talked to her for a long time, and she stated that is all it was.
ITpon her statement, we got a searcli warrant for the premises and
went up there and searclied the place. We found the young lady's
picture more tlian in the nude. I also found out that this man had
a trailer over in Alexandria, and I got in touch with the Alexandria
police immediately and tokl them the trailer number, and they went
over, and I believe they got a suitcase full of pornogi-aphy or porno-
raphic material.
Mr. Chumbris. Inspector, may I inject at this time that the per-
son's name — I mentioned the name of Borgard, Marion Virgil Bor-
gard. I show you his picture. Is that the person that you are dis-
cussing at this particular time?
Mr. Blick. I think it is; yes.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you read into the record the identifying fea-
tures that are imprinted in the mug that you have there of him?
Mr. Blick. P. D. No. 143191, taken August 10, 1954. Charged with
possession, with intent to exhibit obscene pictures, Fochet, M. D., 35
years old, 5 feet 10, 162 pounds, medium build, blue eyes, medium
complexion, brown hair, good teeth, small flesh-colored mole left tem-
ple. Born in Chuluota, Fla. Address 22719 Temple, Trailer Village.
Mr. Chumbris. Before I injected the name, were you through giv-
ing your participation in the raid ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And there was also a raid in Alexandria; is that
correct ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And the Alexandria Police Department not only
obtained suitcases full of obscene material, but they impounded his
trailer, as well as some of his equipment ; is that correct ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 277
Mr. Blick. That I don't know.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know of your own knowledge whether after
the matter was disposed of in court, they returned his equipment and
the trailer ?
Mr. Blick. The equipment that we had was returned to him.
Mr. Chumbris. Why was the equipment that you had returned to
him?
Mr. Blick. By order of the court. There is no law to hold the
equipment or to confiscate the equipment.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, Inspector Blick, I understand that you have
been vitally interested in having such a law introduced in the Congress
and passed by the Congress of the United States ; is that correct 'i
. Mr. Blick. I have.
Mr. Chumbris. And if such a law were passed, would that be an
effective means in curtailing the production and manufacturing of this
obscene material ?
Mr. Blick. Very much so.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please explain, in a few words, how it
would curtail it ?
Mr. Blick. Well, when you seize a sound-projection machine — it
sells for anywhere from $450 to $1,100. And the other equipment that
goes with it for the projection, you might have $1,400 invested in the
projection equipment alone. The film, you have 1,600 feet of film that
would be shown ; it would cost you, if you know how to get it, about
$100 or $125. For a stag affair, you could get anywhere from $2.50 to
$8 admission charge. $3.50, and 150 people tliere — 100 people, I should
say, to make it easy for me — that would be $350 that would be taken
in, and the cost of the film would be $125. That would be $225 profit.
Now, if the police walked in, he could be fined anywhere from $50 to
$500 on a misdemeanor charge. And what other material that we
would seize, the projection machine, chairs, and whatnot, the owners
could come and claim them, and we would have to return same to
them. We would retain the film only.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, when you were referring to a stag party —
your testimony in New York referred to a particular stag party where
there were boys from 11 to 17, 197 of them, to be exact; is that correct?
Mr. Blick. I believe that was the figure ; yes.
Mr. Chumbris. And these stag parties are affecting juveniles as well
as adults ; isn't that correct?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, getting back to these girls who pose for people,
like Borgard that you mentioned, would you explain within your own
knowledge the method of operations of persons like Borgard who take
these juvenile pictures, these indecent and lewd pictures, and nude
pictures ?
Mr. Blick. Now, Mr. Chumbris, I will not explain Borgard, or take
any particular one, because
Mr. Chumbris. Take any one. Their usual method of operation.
Mr. Blick. But there are quite a few people that will go ahead and
pose in the nude, or cohabit with the opposite sex, or put on an act
of perversion, and when they get home they will think about it, and
then they will go back and say to the photographer, "I made a fool of
myself; I want my negative and the pictures."
And the photographer says, "Look, it didn't come out."
278 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
And, of course, that satisfies the mind of the individual.
And those pictures, the negatives, there can be thousands and thou-
sands of pictures taken from the negatives and sold in other parts of
the country unbeknown to that individual who had her picture or his
picture taken.
Mr. Chumbris. So there won't be any mistake in the record, when
you say "it didn't come out," it means that the negative didn't take
satisfactorily enough so that any pictures could be reproduced from
it?
Mr. Blick. That was his reason, but the negative was perfect.
Mr. Chumbris. Always the negative was perfect, and the girl went
away thinking that the picture was destroyed, but instead it was dis-
tributed throughout the country; is that correct?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. I have around five or six hundred of those in
my possession in the suitcase.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, is that a common practice with these types of
pictures ?
Mr. Blick. I would say "Yes."
Mr. Chumbris. Now, directing your attention to nude pictures
taken by photographers of young girls, wasn't there a recent case in
the District of Cohimbia, last year, around July 9, 1954?
Mr. Blick. Are you speaking about the Chucosky case?
Mr. Chumbris. I am referring now particularly to the Murry Levy
case at 2 Thomas Circle.
Mr. Blick. Yes, that is the 17-year-old girl.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please explain that for the record, what-
ever facts you have at your command ?
Mr. Blick. The only facts that I have is that the picture was
taken. By whom, I don't know.
Mr. Chumbris. You don't know who took the picture?
Mr. Blick. No, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Who was apprehended for that?
Mr. Blick. I believe his name was Murry Levy.
Mr. Chumbris. And was his address 2 Thomas Circle NW?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And about this other case you were just mentioning
before I brought up the name of Murry Levy, the Chucosky case,
would you please explain to us that case ?
Mr. Blick. That was where a man was taking pictures of his wife
in the nude, and the children watching it, actual perversion that Mrs.
Chucosky was performing on herself.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you get the correct spelling of that name,
if you have it with you ?
Mr. Blick. You have it on there.
Mr. Chumbris. On this particular exhibit?
Mr. Blick. I think so.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please look at it and see if you can pick
it out of that group ?
Is that also the same case where there was a card index of 600
negatives ?
Mr. Blick. Those were the negatives I was speaking to you about.
It is C-h-u-c-o-s-k-y.
Mr. Chumbris. The full name and the address.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 279
Mr. Blick. Vincent W. is the man's name. The address was 607
Fourtli Street NW, apartment 1. He was charged with sale and pos-
session of indecent and obscene pictures.
xVlong with him was a George Fodor, who was a wholesaler in the
Mr. Chumbris. I think George Fodor was a witness in the hearings
in New York City ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blick. I saw him up there. I did not hear him testify.
Mr. Chumbris. He was a wholesaler of pornography; is that cor-
rect?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. And I believe Fodor testified that he is now living
in Florida.
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, the person that you just mentioned, do you
know whether they still live at the same address that you just gave?
Mr. Blick. They do not.
Mr. Chumbris. They have moved ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr, Chumbris. Do you know the present address ?
Mr. Blick. I have heard — I don't know whether this is authentic
or not.
Senator Langer. We do not want the address used. The people
have left there and it might be embarrassing to the present occupants
of that locality,
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have anything further on this particular
case. Inspector, that you would like to state to the subcommittee at
this time?
Mr. Blick. No.
Mr. (^HUMBRis. Do you have a card index with you ?
Mr. Blick. I do.
Mr. Chumbris. And would you please present them to the chair-
man with the various categories that are listed?
Mr. Blick. The first one are girls performing fellatio — but that
is not the way it is written here.
The second one, men performing cunnilinguism — of course, that
is not the way it is written here, either.
The fourth section, sexual relations.
Mr. Chumbris. These are negatives in these various categories;
is that right ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, you can make a hundred thousand prints off of
one of them.
Mr. Chumbris. In other words, a person could take that negative
and make a hundred thousand prints ; is that right ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir; and still make more.
Mr. Chumbris. And you have 600 in there.
Mr. Blick. Approximately. I have never sat down to count them.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you have anything on bestiality ?
Mr. Blick. Sadistic bestiality, yes, I have any type of perversion
that you wish.
Mr. Chu:\ibris. Now, Inspector, getting back to this confiscation of
equipment, isn't it true that sometimes the police department loses
money on the fact that the time and the preparation of confiscating
280 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
this equipment, when you make raids such as this, is large in compari-
son to the penalty that is imposed on the offender ?
Mr. Blick. Many times, for this reason : Some of this equipment is
not so easy to handle, and man can hurt himself taking this out and
putting it in the wagon and then taking it out and marking it and
taking care of it as he should to protect the property as long as it is
in the custody of the police department, and then to have it turned
back, and we keej) nothing but the film that has to be destroyed
by a bonfire.
Mr. CriuiiBRis. Then you, in your opinion, would definitely recom-
mend that the law in the District of Columbia be amended so that
the property can be impounded, confiscated, and not returned to the
offender ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blick. Absolutely.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, Avhat is your ojnnion as to the severity of the
penalties for these various offenses in the District of Columbia as a
deterrent to future criminal activity by these people? Do you think
the penalties are severe enough ?
Air. Blick. I do not.
Mr. Chumbris. And would you comment on that, please?
Mr. Blick. Well, when you can make sucli an amount of money as
the average run of these people make on this material that they sell^
and they work their own hours, and ride around in beautiful cars, and
the penalty is anywhere from $100 to $500 fine, or a year in jail, they
are willing to take chances on it.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, I have noticed this exhibit that you have
presented to us. You may refer to it, if you so please. You have one
in front of you.
Just give us an idea of the nature of the disposition of some of those
cases, the amount of the fine, or the jail sentence that is given.
]Mr. Blick. $250 or 90 days; $100 or 60 days; nol-prossed; nol-
prossed; nol-prossed; $100 or 60 davs,- $100 or 60 days; not guilty;
nol-prossed ; $100 or 90 days ; $100 or 90 days.
Mr. Chumbris. Then, in both of those instances, the fines, in your es-
timation, are light in comparison to the nature of the offense; is that
correct ?
Mr. Blick. To my belief it is. Very much so.
Mr. Ciri'MBRis. I believe you testified in New York that you think
a person who sells and distributes pornographic material to a juvenile
is doing a more harmful act than if he were selling or distributing
narcotics.
Would you like to comment on that?
Mr. Blick. I stated in New York, if my memory serves me right,
that pornograpliy was worse than narcotics.
Mr. Chumbris. And the reason ?
Mr. Blick. The reason why would be this : That if an individual
had one ca])sule of narcotics, he would use it and no one could take
it after him. With these pamphlets, these pictures, and whatnot,
they can be passed around from one person to another and 500 or a
tliousand can see the same booklet over a period of time.
Mr. Chumbris. Therefore, since pornography affects so many, that
makes it much more effective ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 281
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. They are getting so bold that, as long as we
are talking about it, I would like to show 2 or 3 of the latest ones that
are out. . .i
Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir. Would you please exhibit them to the
chairman?
Senator Langer. These are the very latest ones, are they, Inspector i
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. These are the latest pictures that are being
sold to the public todav. You can see they have gone from black and
white into color. You can see the idea. This young lady here—
J don't believe she is over 18 or 19, is she?
Mr. Chumbris. Inspector, I believe some of the witnesses m New
York testified that the sentences and fines imposed are so light that
they don't even amount to a license fee ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. In the raid that the 196 boys were involved m, how
many men did you use on that raid ?
Mr. Blick. I could be mistaken, but I think it was close to around
30. I could be mistaken, because I used everybody that I could get
my hands on.
Mr. Chumbris. For that particular raid alone, what cost would
you say it was to the city of Washington, D. C, to apprehend that one
person, for those involved for the stag party ?
Mr. Blick. Of all the work and everything, including the time of
building the job up, I would say close to $1,200 easily.
Mr. Chumbris. And what was the fine the person who plead guilty
received ?
Mr. Blick. I would have to refer to the records, because I think
it was-
Mr. Chumbris. Would $200 sound like the correct fine?
Mr. Blick. No, sir. It was around $100 or 60 days.
Mr. Chumbris. $100 or 60 days. And it cost you over $1,200.
Mr. Blick. If you want to consider our time that was consumed.
Mr. Chumbris.' And that doesn't involve the judicial processes in-
volved, also, the cost for judicial processes ?
Mr. Blick. I am just speaking about the police department.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, in the taking of these nude pictures of some
of these young girls, was a promise made to them that they would be
used for calendai-s and post cards, and things like that, legitimate
ones ?
Mr. Blick. That I cannot answer, Mr. Chumbris, because I don't
know.
Mr. Chumbris. Inspector, could you state how many of these 2-by-4:
booklets get into the high schools and junior high schools here in
Washington ? Have you made any specific survey on that ?
Mr. Blick. The only way that we can go on that would be just the
complaints. Now, we had a complaint this week that a 17-year-old
boy had gotten hold of some of this obscene and indecent material, and
we talked to the boy last night. The only way that we can get hold
of that is what comes to us through the parents, or the wonderful
cooperation that we are receiving from the schools here in Wash-
ington.
Mr. Chujnibris. Now, Inspector, were you in New York when we
read the comments from the various chiefs of police throughout the
Nation as to the amount of pornography that is being sold and the
282 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
amount that is o-etting to the children { Were you there at that time h
Mr. Blick. I don't believe I was in the room at that time.
Mr. Chumbris. While we read into the record numerous replies
from chiefs of police to indicate that pornooraphy is getting to the
children — as a matter of fact, in one instance, they were found on chil-
dren in the elementary schools as well as junior high schools. And we
received a letter this morning from the chief of police in one of our
States in the country which pointed out that in about six schools they
had a great amount"^of traffic in pornography, and they sent a picture
to illustrate the type of material that is coming in, and that was some
of the material that you are showing, and some of these 2-by-4's.
Would you please look at that picture and see if that is the type of
pornographic material that gets around to the children in the schools?
Mr. Blick. This, and worse.
Mr. Chumbris. This, and worse ?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir. . .
Mr. Chumbris. I would like to have that marked as an exhibit.
Senator Langer. It will be so marked.
Mr. Chumbris. We will mark this exhibit 28.
Senator Langer. It will be made a part of the record.
(The photograph was marked '^Exhibit Xo. 28," and is on file with
the subcommittee.)
Mr. Chumbris. Is there anything further that you would like to
comment on, Inspector Blick:'
Plow about some of these titles? Do you have any titles of the
films themselves?
Mr. Blick. Do you want me to read them otl?
Mr. Chumbris. "I would leave that with the chairman.
Senator Danger. You don't have to read them. Just file them.
Mr. Chumbris. Just file the list of titles.
Mr. Blick. I can't, because that is my receipt that I sent to the
Mr. Chumbris. I show you a mimeographed list that was picked off
of the Simon Simring case in Orangeburg, S. C.. that was mentioned
in the New York City hearings, and so if some of these titles are similar
to those that you have in your possession, we will file that for the
record.
jMr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. They are similar?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
(^hairman KEFAU^'ER. That will be filed as an exhibit.
(The list of film titles in the possession of Simon Simring were
marked "Exhibit No. 29," and are on file with the subcommittee.)
Mr. Chumbris. I would like to ask you one other question : What
was the value of the material that you impounded from George Fodor's
place when vou arrested him, in the last year or so?
Mr. Blick. I think the record will show— I forget what I said.
Mr. Chumbris. I think you did mention it in the New York hearing.
Mr. Blick. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. And, as a matter of fact, I think you mentioned the
fact that he had a cellar full of that material at his home; is that
correct ?
Mr. Blick. That is correct.
Mr. Chumbris. He operated out of his home; is that correct?
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 283
Mr. Chumbris. Now, as I understand your testimony — and I would
like for you to repeat it — tlie law in the District of Columbia now as
to the manufacture and distribution and sale of pornography is not
as elective as it sliould be; is that correct?
Mr, Blick. Tliat is the way I feel about it; yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. No further questions, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Langer. I want to thank you again very much for your
kindness in helping us out, Inspector, your Idndness in New York,
and taking time this afternoon.
Mr. Blick. Yes, sir.
Senator Langer. Mark this "Exhibit 30." It shows children 4, 6,
and 10 years old.
Mr. Chumbris. This will be exhibit No. 30.
(The photos of indecent acts by children were marked "Exhibit No.
30." and are on file with the subcommittee.)
Mr. Chumbris. And this is definitely an obscene and lewd and por-
nographic picture ; is that correct ?
Mr. Blick. I would say it is about the worst that a person could
take.
Mr. Chumbris. Thank you very much, again, Mr. Blick.
Senator Langer. Inspector Blick, I appreciate very much your com-
ing down.
Mr. Chumbris. Solicitor O'Brien and Inspector Simon.
Senator Langer. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are
about to give in the pending matter shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. O'Brien. I do.
Mr. Simon. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM C. O'BRIEN, ASSISTANT SOLICITOR, POST
OFFICE DEPARTMENT, ACCOMPANIED BY HARRY J. SIMON,
INSPECTOR, POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Senator Langer. You may proceed.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, will you give us your full name and
jonr address, and your official title, for the record ?
Mr. O'Brien. My name is William C. O'Brien. I am Assistant
Solicitor of the Post Office Department, in charge of Fraud and
Mailability Division. Of course, my official address is Post Office
Department, Washington, D. C. My home address is Chevy Chase,
Md.
Mr. Chumbris. And Mr. Simon, will you give your full name, ad-
dress, and official title?
Senator Langer. Just a moment.
You have had 43 years' experience in this, haven't you?
Mr. O'Brien. Just 41, sir.
Senator Langer. That is your background, 41 years ?
Mr. O'Brien. That is right, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon.
Mr. Simon. Harry J. Simon, post office inspector. I am domiciled
in Washington, D. C, in the Post Office Department Building, and
reside in Washington, D. C.
65263—55 19
284 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. How long have you been in your present position?
Mr. Simon, I have been with the Post Office Inspection Service since
1925, approximately 15 years as a post office inspector.
Mr. Chumbris. And you are one of their experts, I understand, on
testifying before congressional hearings ; is that right ?
Mr. Simon. Not an expert, but a post office inspector who has been
investigating cases of dealers in obscene and indecent matter in con-
nection with the mails for 7 or 8 years.
Mr. Chumbris. And you have testified previously before congres-
sional committees ?
Mr. Simon. I have.
Mr. Chumbris. I understand, Mr. O'Brien, that you have a state-
ment that you would like to proceed with.
Mr. O'Brien. I have a general statement which I prepared, not
knowing that you were going to examine witnesses by questions. But
whichever way you wish to proceed, it will be all right with me.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, we are particularly interested in the
legal procedure under whicli the Post Office Department operates in
detecting and curbing pornographic, obscene, and lewd material from
going through the mails, and whatever else is under your jurisdiction.
Mr. O'Brien. I may say at the outset that the Post Office Depart-
ment is receiving a great many complaints from parents whose chil-
dren have been the recipients of obscene advertising of various kinds.
On the cardboards which have been brought in to the committee room
and which are now being opened up by one of your assistants, we have
attached samples of advertising matter which has been sent through
the mails and complained about, and some copies of the letters from
])arents complaining about the advertisements exemplified on those
boards, wliich were received by those children, some sent to very young
children, and some sent to teen-agers.
The mailing volume of these advertisements is steadily growing.
The volume of complaints we are receiving is steadily growing, and
in my long experience, it has never heretofore been equaled in volume
or as to the character of advertising.
The advertising is becoming more daring. It is already a menace
in itself to public morals, and especially to the morals of children.
I thinlv, in my judgment, the increase of this traffic is due to several
principal factors.
One, I believe, is the ready availability of pornography in whole-
sale lots, made by such persons, I think, as Inspector Blick has talked
about previously this afternoon, and the fact that an obscene dealer
can go into business on a comparatively small capital — he needs only
to begin to circularize advertisements, sometimes they are periodical
advertisements of small size, and sometimes they are circular adver-
tisements more ambitiously prepared, as you see on the board over
tliere. And that one in the left-hand corner at the top is an example
of one used by the Male Merchandise ]\Iart in Hollywood. The adver-
tisements which the man is just now putting up are advertisements of
Samuel Roth. I think he appeared before you in New York briefly.
And of other purveyors
Senator Langer. Both of them claimed the fifth amendment, didn't
they, or did Eoth testify ?
Mr. O'Brien. Yes ; he did.
Senator Langer. And Klaw did ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 285
Mr. O'Brien. Yes. .
We have examples of Klaw's advertisements and various others:
the Stajr Shop, the Tourlanes Publishing Co. , -i^
Mr Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, so that the record may be st^aiglit,
the person you are referring: to that sends out the material that is
now on the board there is Samuel Roth, of New York; is that right?
110 Lafayette, New York ; is that right, eighth floor ?
Mr O'Brien. That is correct, sir. We have issued numerous orders
against various enterprises, but he is a very active man, and invents a
new name for his business every time we issue an order against the
one he is using. , -o ^-u o
Mr. Chumbris. You are referring to Sam Koth <
Mr. O'Brien. Sam Roth. .
Mr. Chumbris. I would like to get that straight, lou say he in-
vents a new name every time you put a stop order against the old
name ?
Mr. O'Brien. That is right. , , ^ -,
Mr. Chumbris. Now, I believe he testified in New York that he had
as many as 15 or 20 trade names registered with the county clerk m
New York at one time.
Mr. O'Brien. I think that would be true.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you know the size of Mr. Roth's mailing books
and pamphlets, and also these circulars that go throughout the coun-
try to youngsters ?
Mr. O'Brien. He came into my office first after he appeared before
your committee in New York and told me he had a mailing list of
400,000 names.
Mr. Chumbris. Did he tell you where he gets his mailing list
from ?
Mr. O'Brien. Well, he accumulates the mailing list by, I think,
the random circularization of names he finds in various books, tele-
phone directories, or what not.
Mr. Chumbris. I think he did mention in his testimony that he
bought over 100,000 name lists from one Mr. Vallon, in Brooklyn,
N. Y.
Mr. O'Brien. They all buy these names.
Senator Danger. 180,000?
Mr. Chumbris. 180,000, to be exact.
Mr. O'Brien. As in the case of Samuel Roth, so in the case of other
persons that we have had to deal with in the mail order business, the
facility with which they can change names and also locations is quite
a problem for our Department in dealing with these enterprises.
Mr. Chumbris. Tliat is one of your biggest headaches; isn't it,
Mr. O'Brien?
Mr. O'Brien. One of our biggest headaches.
Mr. Chumbris. What is the recommendation of the Department to
correct that difficulty that you have?
Mr. O'Brien. The recommendation of the Department is incor-
porated, I think, in a bill which was introduced by Congressman Rees,
of Kansas, H. R. 174. That bill would authorize the Post Office De-
partment, the Postmaster General, to temporarily impound mail of
companies whose sale of indecent literature through the mails is
the subject of a proceeding.
286 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, I think I would like to point out
at this time that the Senate Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee has
voted to supi^ort a similar measure in the Senate of the United States,
which will be introduced on Monday by the chairman. Senator
Kefauver.
Mr. O'Brien. I am very happy to hear that, sir, and I know the
Postmaster General will be gratified.
Senator Langer. Now, in that measure, you remember in the New
York hearings, we had a gentleman up there who had been convicted
6 or 7 times, and it seems that each time he got convicted, the fine he
received was less. At that time we instructed the chief counsel to draw
up a bill providing for a more severe penalty for the second offense
and for the third offense.
Do you recall that ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes, sir.
Senator Danger. Has that bill been prepared for introduction?
Mr. Chuinibris. That bill has been prepared for introduction, and
it will be ready within a few days.
Senator Danger. We may adjourn by the 15th of July, you know.
Mr. Chumbris. We will have it in next week.
Senator Danger. Would you be in favor of that?
Mr. O'Brien. Yes, although the prosecution end of it is more Mr.
Simon's field. Certainly anything that would tend to lessen this
greatly growing and steadily worsening traffic in obscenity would be
a great help to the Post Office Department.
Senator Danger. Well, in New York, for example, the fourth felony
means life.
Mr. O'Brien. Yes.
Senator Danger. In other words, the penalty is progressively higher
and more severe for each offense.
Mr. O'Brien. I think, of course, that is a very strong deterrent if
you can put it into effect.
Mr. Chumbris. Isn't it true that the State of Minnesota has a
statute along that particular line?
Mr. O'Brien. I am sorry, counsel, I don't know that.
Now, you asked me a few minutes ago if I would discuss the legal
situation, the laws which we have to use and which we try to enforce
in the Post Office Department to prevent the dissemination of obscene
matter.
Of course, the principal and oldest law is the one now incorporated
in title 18 of the United States Code, known as section 1461. It is a
law which was passed in 1872, I believe, and amended several times
since, and it has a twofold character. It provides that no obscene,
lewd, indecent, or filthy matter shall be carried in the mails. It says
that if they are carried in the mails, they shall not be delivered by any
post office or letter carrier. And it also provides a penalty for whoever
knowingly deposits such matter in the mails, or knowingly causes it
to be taken from the mails. The penalty is $5,000 fine or 5 years'
imprisonment, or both.
That, of course, is very strong law, both in tlie scope of the matter
it embraces and also in the penalty it carries. The difficulties of
enforcement, of course, are very numerous.
Now, as far as the criminal provisions are concerned, Mr. Simon can
tell you more about it. We have had the experience of not being able
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 287
to prosecute offenders where it would do the most good — in other
words, where the obscene matter lias been directed for delivery. That
is because a fellow may live in a liberal or ultraliberal typical jurisdic-
tion, either on the west coast or the east coast. "We do not regard the
mailing of some of the stuff we consider obscene as very serious, and as
Inspector Blick has shown you, the fines or penalties imposed are not
commensurate with the injury that such matter does to the public, and
especially to the juveniles.
Therefore, the Post Office Department is advocating and presently
trying to obtain approval for additional legislation which will author-
ize prosecution of offenders in the communities where the matter is
delivered and where it actually inflicts injury upon the recipient. I
think such legislation would be of great help in deterring some of this
traffic.
Mr. Chumbris. Is there such a bill pending before Congress?
Mr. O'Brien. The bill has not been introduced. It is presently
being drawn and submitted to the Budget Bureau, and it hasn't come
in yet, but I believe it will be offered.
Mr. Chumbris. I say, No bill has been introduced in Congress at this
time?
Mr. O'Brien. No.
Mr. Chumbris. Could we get a copy of that proposed bill, Mr.
O'Brien?
Mr. O'Brien. I think you will have to wait until the administration
cleare it through the Budget.
Senator Langer. You see, Mr. O'Brien, we are doing this year what
we have done during all the years that I have been in the Senate. We
will go along, in January we will meet, nothing is done, February
nothing is done, March nothing is done, April nothing is done. May
nothing is done — you and I have had that matter up before, as you
know, and I think you and I are in full agreement.
Now, we will introduce this bill, and we will get it in in the middle of
June, and finally when the House will pass on it, it will never be con-
sidered by the other House, and therefore it will die, and next year we
will come back with all this testimony over again.
You and I have had that up in connection with other postal matters,
in connection with the small loans, insurance frauds, and so on.
Mr. O'Brien. That is true.
Senator Langer. Is there any way we can get this bill in next week
that you know?
Mr. O'Brien. I believe I would have to find out what progress has
been made on it before I could answer that. Senator. My last informa-
tion is that it is imminent, but not actually in the hopper yet.
Next week we are going to have an exodus of some kind.
Mr. Chumbris. You may continue.
Senator Langer. Before you continue, I am very much interested in
this, because our New York testimony shows that some of these fellows
make a million or a million and a half or $2 million a year.
Mr. O'Brien. That was Mr. Klaw.
Senator Langer. It is to their interest to do all they can to keep
these bills from being passed. Certainly this subcommittee ought
to find some way to get these bills in so that they can be passed without
being killed year after year.
288 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. O'Brien. I think you will find very strong support of that.
Mr. Simon can speak for it.
Senator Langer. We fool around and we don't get it in here until
the 24th or 25th of June. It is in the Subcommittee of the Judiciary,
and 2 weeks the full committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee,
and it will lay around a week before anything is done, and all the
time July 15 is approaching, and by the time we adjourn nothing
is done, and the bill is dead.
Mr. Chumbris. I might point out one gratifying thing. This
bill that was reported out of our subcommittee, the one which pro-
hibits interstate transportation by private car of pornographic mate-
rial, it has also passed the House, so now that one bill that has been
pending for 3 or 4 years has now finally passed.
Senator LxVnger. That has been pending for 7 or 8 years, and I am
glad to hear that.
How is the runaway-fathers bill ?
Mr. Chumbris. Tliat bill is reported out of the Senate.
Senator Langer. That will have to go to the full committee in the
Senate.
Mr. Chumbris. That is another bill that has been defeated each
year since 1948 and 1949.
Senator Langer. It was put in by Congressman Pope or Congress-
man Jacobs 15 years ago, and it still isn't passed. There certainly
ought to be some provision made so that we can get action on these
bills.
Mr. O'Brien. As to this man who is making the million or million
and a half dollars from the sale of this pornography, at least one
of these is Irving Klaw, who refused to testify. I have a copy of
the charges w^e have pending against him, and if we supported the
charges — I am the complainant — if we support these charjres, an order
can be issued that will stop all mail addressed to Irving Klaw. That
means, of course, his mail-order business in this type of pornography,
what I call pornography, in which he has been indulging, these pic-
tures, photographs, slides, and so forth, will be in the past.
Senator Langer. You have just told us that 1 fellow has got 20
different corporations. They will slip it over and put it in the name
of somebody else.
Mr. O'Brien. We are not too slow about following it. It is some-
thing that we can handle effectively by impounding this mail.
Senator Langer. If you impound the mail they will use an auto-
mobile or airplane.
Mr. O'Brien. We only have the mail to deal with.
Senator Langer. I understand that.
Mr. Chumbris. At this time you don't have the impounding statute
to operate under. That is one of the bills you are trying to get
through ?
Mr. O'Brien. I have an opening and impounding authority as
to a fictitious name, with which I have had some success and some
failure.
Mr. Chumbris. Is that what you term the unlawful order or the
stop order?
Mr. O'Brien. The unlawful order is pursuant to 290 United States
Code 55, by which the Postmaster General can stop the mail of per-
sons obtaining obscenity through the mail.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 289
Mr. Chumbris. That hasn't proved 100 percent effective?
Mr. O'Brien. It is 100 percent effective where the courts would
leave the order in effect.
Mr. Chumbris. What is the difficulty there?
Mr. O'Brien. I say, 100 percent effective as to each order. Now,
in the case of the woman up in Connecticut and around there, Mrs.
Tagger was her name. She ran a business which could operate in 1
place under 1 name for a few weeks or months, and then skip to another.
She was constantly moving along. We finally did put an end to
her use of the mail for obscenity ; 100 percent effective, I think, is too
strong.
Mr. Chumbris. Let's strike the words "100 percent effective," and
use the word "effective."
Mr. O'Brien. I can say that in most of these cases where we have
complaints on a 259 (a) and obtain an order, I think in a very high
percent of the cases there has ben no revival of that business. How-
ever, there is this : we have to deal with the intricacies of procedure
as prescribed by the Administrative Procedure Act. A man can post-
pone and fool around with our procedures for many months.
Mr. Roth here, in one case, has managed to do that for 12 months.
Mr. Chumbris. In the meantime, he has already profited on that
first advertisement he has sent out; is that correct?
Mr. O'Brien. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. And by the time this procedure was put into opera-
tion
Mr. O'Brien. We did use the fictitious name procedure against
some of Mr. Roth's enterprises, and the court refused to give any
relief, and that was the place where impounding action was very use-
ful, but nevertheless the delays which are incident to complying with
all the prescriptions of the act can be very bad when you come to en-
forcing the law against fly-by-night operations, which, when they close
up after they have taken all the money they can, are indifferent to
the order.
Senator Langer. Did you get that batch of literature I got from
North Dakota last week?
Mr. O'Brien. Have I received it yet?
Senator Langer. Yes.
Mr. O'Brien. I probably have. If I did, I replied to you, and
sent it back, probably.
Senator Langer. I sent it to Mr. Summerfield.
Mr. O'Brien. It comes over to me.
Senator Langer. It came from Dickey County, N. Dak.
Mr. O'Brien. I bet it was Good Times advertisements, if I were
betting on which case it was, because Good Times and similar publica-
tions are demanding circularization at the present time.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you want to get back to your statement, Mr.
O'Brien?
We have injected some questions into this that you probably covered
later on.
While we are still on the question of recommendations, a question
was raised in New York concerning the envelope not containing a
sufficient identification of the person who puts this material into the
mails.
290 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Do you have any suggestions of a law tliat should be enacted to
take care of that ?
Mr. O'Brien. Requiring a person who mails indecent matter to
disclose his identity on the envelope ?
Mr. Chumbris. That is right.
Mr. O'Brien. It never occurred to me that we could do that.
Mr. Chumbris. Is it possible that it can be done ? You notice we
get a lot of these envelopes, and it just mentions some fictitious com-
pany, without any individual name attached to it, with some address;
that is the only identifying feature on it.
Mr. O'Brien. I might say that it will probably be a statute which
will be difficult to enforce as a mailability statute. It might be one,
if constitutional, which would be enforc'eable as a criminal statute.
The reason is, of course, that if a man mails first-class matter in a
plain envelope and we have no way of going into that mail, it would
go through without challenge. Aiiother thing, if it were possible to
issue an order by the Postmaster General in such a case, we have the
problem of willfully mailing obscene matter without putting his ad-
dress on the outside, I don't know whether it would mean anything
beneficial. I haven't thought anything about it.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please give that thought, and give what-
ever recommendations that you may have to the subcommittee at a
later time, because this matter was raised during the course of the
New York hearings, and if there are suggestions that you can make
on that particular point, I am sure the subcommittee would greatly
appreciate it.
Senator Langer. Can we set a day when we are going to get that?
Can you get it in a week.
Mr. O'Brien. Next week is a bad week.
Senator Langer. You have got a bunch of assistants. You have
got millions and millions of dollars in the Post Office Department.
I realize that you can't do all of that, but you must have some assist-
ants that can prepare that and get it in here in the week or so ; is that
right?
Mr. O'Brien. I will try to comply with your request. Senator.
Getting back to this discussion of law, the nonmailability statute
is one which is most often employed by the Post Office Department,
because, of course, it is readily applicable to all matter which is not
under seal. That would enclose all circular matter which is third class
and all publications which are not mailed under seal. Therefore,
most of our post cards, most of our work, comes under that statute.
And we do exclude from the mails under that statute great quan-
tities of nonmailable obscene matter, mainly in the form of periodicals,
sometimes two or three hundred copies of a magazine may be declared
unmailable, because it is obscene. The publishers are pretty well ac-
quainted with that fact, and consequently we find not many of them
willing to take a risk when they have a l:)ad issue, they probably send
it by some other means of conveyance. Sometimes you will find pub-
lications scattered around the country which have indicia on them
indicating entry as second-class matter, but that doesn't mean that it
was disseminated by the mail, it could have been delivered by private
carrier, common carrier, or some other form of transportation.
And then, of course, we have a number of lawsuits arising from our
efforts to exclude obscene matter from the mails. We have some very
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 291
close questions on what obscenity constitutes. The battle is an unceas-
ing one between those who want to make a living out of this porno-
graphic matter, and law enforcement oiHcers and the public, which
objects to having the mail used for the distribution of such material.
Mr. CHxrMBKis, ]Mr. O'Brien, do you know, of your own knowledge,
the method of operation of these people obtaining mailing lists and
liow they could screen these mailing lists for whether the person is an
adult or a minor?
Mr, O'Brien. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. Samuel Roth admitted in his testimony
iri New York City that his office procedure could be improved to a
great extent in determining whether the name lists that he buys
or rents contain names and addressse of minors.
Mr. Chairman, in conjunction with the name lists, I have a let-
ter here from Congressman Blatnik, of Minnesota, which was sent to
lis this morning, witli some material, and some of this
Mr. O'Brien. I might say we proceeded against Tourlanes.
Mr. Chumbris. Tourlanes Publishing Co., 229 West 28th Street,
New York City, N. Y.
Mr. O'Brien. I entered charges against them several months ago.
The case has been tried and heard. The hearing examiner has rec-
ommended an order stopping their mail. And of course they have
the right to appeal, under the Administrative Procedures Act, which
they will no doubt pursue.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Chairman, may I read into the record the
Congressman's letter, because it is an interesting sidelight.
Senator Langer. Yes.
Mr. Chumbris. It says:
Dear Mr. Chumbris : My assistant told me of his conversation with you yes-
terday and your desire to see the material which was sent to Mr. Peter McHardy
of Hibbinff, Minn. Peter is a young man now serving with the Armed Forces
in Germany, and his father wonders whether or not his mailing address was
obtained through his Army enlistment.
Any information you can give me on this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Tlie reason why I say this is unusual is because this is the first time
we have had any inkling that a mailing list can be made up of young
men who enlist in the armed services.
Do you have any comment to make on that? Is there any such
possibility, that you can think of?
Mr. O'Brien. We haven't heard of that before. As a matter of
fact, I don't get information concerning mailing lists.
Mr. Chumbris. I would like to have that introduced into the record
and marked "Exhibit No, 31."
Senator Langer. That may be done,
(The letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 31," and is as
follows :)
Congress of the United States,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D. C, June 8, 1955.
Mr. Peter Chumbris,
Room 900, HOLC Buiklhw,
Washington 25, D. C.
Dear Mr. Chumbris : IMy assistant told me of his conversation with you yester-
day and your desire to see the material which was sent to Mr. Peter McHardy of
Hibbing, Minn. Peter is a young man now serving with the Armed Forces in
Germany, and his father wonders whether or not his mailing address was obtained
through his Army enlistment.
292 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Any information you can give me on this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely yours,
John A. Blatnik, Meniber of Congress.
Mr. O'Brien. Here is our complaint against the Tourlanes Co.,
which was filed on February 15, this year.
Senator Langer. How many complaints have you filed, Mr. O'Brien,
on subject matter of this kind, this year?
Mr. O'Brien. This is the sixth month. I would say perhaps 200.
I can't tell you offhand. I am just estimating, as well as I can.
Senator Langer. What is the disposition of them ?
Mr. O'Brien. I would say most of them quit when they are con-
fronted with charges.
In other words, they say, "We quit, we won't do it any more, we
agree to go out of business." More than half of them.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you say that your complaints filed have
stepped up within the last year ?
Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. To what extent ? What is your average number of
complaints per year that you filed, would you say ?
Mr. O'Brien. Now, the average number of complaints over a period
of years- — remember, in the first place, the statute was passed in 1950,
this 259 (a), and we started off pretty slowly on it, because we didn't
get too many cases, of course. And there weren't so many concerns at
first.
Mr. Chumbris. In other words, there were many more concerns that
have opened up business since 1950 ?
Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. How many more concerns, would you say, have
opened up since 1950 ?
Mr. O'Brien. You mean in excess over the average number in
existence ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes.
Mr. O'Brien. I don't know.
Mr. Chumbris. Percentagewise.
Mr. O'Brien. I don't really know that, sir. You see, you have
the fellow coming and going and opening here and there, and one does,
and another crops up.
Mr. Chumbris. Can you explain the reason why so many are crop-
ping up since 1950 ?
Mr. O'Brien. I tried to explain that before, that availability of this
type of picture — you can buy it, go into these studios where they have
a bin of it, just like a bin of junk, and you can go in and take a handful
of these and buy them, and then you are in business.
Mr. Chumbris. And, in your opinion, since 1950 this business of
obscene lit-erature and bondage pictures and fetish pictures and nude
pictures, all those that have been determined as obscene, has jumped
up tremendously in its manufacture, distribution, and sale through-
out the United States ; is that correct ?
Mr. O'Brien. In my opinion ?
Mr. Chumbris. Yes.
Mr. O'Brien. I can't answer that question.
All I can say is that I see more of them. Perhaps we have been
more effective in rooting it out.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 293
Mr. Chumbris. You see more of it, and there are more concerns
that are cropping up every day to get into this particular type of
business?
Mr. O'Brien. More concerns are cropping up every few days.
Mr. Chumbris. And therefore that must be an indication that that
business is increasing; is that correct?
Mr. O'Brien. I tliink it is generally increasing, yes.
Senator Langer. The reason for that is that nobody is ever put
in jail. When they get a prosecution, all they do is tell them to stop
it, and the fellow says, "Yes, I will do it no more."'
Mr. O'Brien. Senator, I can't put them in jail. I wish I could.
All I can do is stop their mail. When I say stop it, that may mean
the mails go back marked "Out of Business." And that is a measure
1 am willing to adopt, because it saves the Government trial time and
money.
In other words, if a man agrees to go out of business now rather than
prolong the hearings 6 months, the Government and the public gain by
having the business stop quickly, and also less expensiv^ely.
Senator Langer. Can't these people be prosecuted ?
Mr. O'Brien. They can be prosecuted if the United States attorneys
feel they have cases of sufficient strength, but very often we can stop
them, Senator, in cases where the United States attorney would prob-
ably not undertake the prosecution.
Mr. Chumbris. You have heard of the Solliday case in Baltimore,
where the United States attorney obtained a conviction for the distri-
bution of this type of pictures we are talking about — the fetish, the
bondage, the strip-tease.
Mr. O'Brien. One of my men testified in that case.
Mr. Chumbris. In that case, the common carrier was used, and still
a conviction was obtained, under the common-carrier provision, which
is 1462 of title 18.
Mr. O'Brien. Right.
Senator Langer. How many fellows have gone to jail since 1950 ?
Mr. O'Brien. I don't know. Mr. Simon is the man who handles
the prosecutions.
Senator Langer. Can you tell us?
Mr. Simon. I have some statistics on the number of arrests in com-
parison to the number of cases we have issued for investigation.
That is based on the mailing of all types of nonmailable matter,
including threatening letters and postal cards. During the fiscal year
ending 1954, we had issued for investigation 5,233 cases, which is quite
an increase, and the statistics in our possession at the present time
indicate that tliere will be a tremendous increase during the current
fiscal year.
Now, arrests for mailing obscene matter during the fiscal year end-
ing June 30, 1954, there were 136 arrests and 112 convictions.
During the current fiscal year ending April 1955, there were 166
arrests and 137 convictions.
Senator IjAnger. What is the average amount these gentlemen get ?
Mr. Simon. My experience has been that the penalty is very small
in most obscenity cases; they get $50 or $100 fine. Most of them are
probation and frequently there is not even a fine. The most excessive
fine — I just experienced three cases that were tried in California, in
San Francisco, the northern district of California, involving mail-
294 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
fraud photographs. They were jury trials in each case. After pre-
vious prosecution the promoters had continued to operate. But a
year ago I took the matter up with the present United States attorney.
We obtained indictments in each case and convictions in each in-
stance. These defendants were given suspended jail sentences from
6 to 9 years and fines were $1,500—1 got a $3,000 fine, 1 a $4,000 fine,
and 1 a $5,000 fine, which is quite excessive — and those are the only
adequate sentences we have experienced in this particular type of case.
Senator Langer. Don't you think the law should be changed to
make it compulsory that the judge had to give them at least 90 days
or a year in jail?
Mr. Simon. The penalty is adequate if the judges would only
Senator Langer. The Congress has the power to say to the judge,
"You have got to give him at least a year."
Mr. Simon. I think there should be more adequate sentences to deter
these people.
Senator Langer. Would you draw up a law in this omnibus statute
you are drawing up to say that the judge has no discretion ; when he
convicts, he has to give him at least a year? When you stop this stuff,
you have got to have some kind of adequate penalty to stop it. When
a man is making a million dollars a year and gets $100 or $50 fine,
it makes the whole law ridiculous.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, are you familiar with the case in wliich
a Federal judge in Newark, N. J., last summer issued a year-and-a-day
penalty to this person for his first offense in sending an obscene picture
through the mails ?
Mr. Simon. I don't recall that particular case ; no, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Some of our material from the hearings in New
York have not come to Washington and have been forwarded to an-
other part of the country for the hearings. I don't have the exact
name of the person involved, but the judge issued this statement, that
from here on in any case that comes before his court of obscene litera-
ture, obscene pictures, lewd pictures, was going to get the full penalty
of the law.
Mr. Simon. That was in a Federal case.
Mr. Chumbris. Li a Federal court.
Are you in accord with that type of meting out punishment?
Mr. Simon. No, sir ; I hadn't heard about it.
Mr. Chumbris. Are you in accord with it?
Mr. Simon. I am ; yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. Could you believe that that would definitely act as
a deterrent to future traffic in pornographic literature through the
mails ?
Mr. Simon. I certainly do.
Mr. Chumbris. As a matter of fact, it would be the same for any
other })rovisions, such as 1462, through common carrier, and the other
])rovisions of the law?
Mr. Simon. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chumbris. If the punishment were greater ?
Mr. Simon. I agree.
Mr. O'Brien. Of course, you could amend 1461 and say :
* * * shall be fined not less than $1,000 or less than one year in jail.
Senator Langer. And providing further that the judge cannot
suspend the sentence, and get away from all the suspending business.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 295
We ran across that, as you will remember, during the war, where
they had defective wnring in the airplanes, and a lot of our soldiers
were killed. And we had a judge in Indiana that suspended the sen-
tence, even though there had been several mechanics and soldiers
killed. You remember that. The judge finally resigned when they
started making an investigation.
Mr. Simon. I might say that since I have been engaged in this type
of work I only know of one instance where a man has received a
maximum penalty of 5 years in prison for mailing obscene matter.
Mr. O'Brien. Of course, where we stop these people, or they quit,
they did suffer financially; they probably have a lot of money in-
vested in their advertisements.
Senator Langer. If your theory is right, then if a man enforces a
prohibition law, a fellow can sell liquor all year long, or 2 years or
3 years or 4 years, and when you finally convict him, if he says he
won't sell any more liquor
Mr. O'Brien. No ; that is not my theory.
Senator Langer. That is the way the things works.
Mr. O'Brien. No, sir.
Our function in the Post Office Department is not punitive. Our
function is to stop the use of the mails for the distribution of obscen-
ity When it comes to the prosecution and penalty, that is up to the
De])artment of Justice. But we try to stop the channel of the mails
from being used in order to let this matter flow into the houses of
the public and contaminate the minds of these children that you are
here trying to protect.
If you can effect that, then after we have done that, the avenues are
still open for prosecution of the offender.
Senator Langer. As Mr. Simon says, they issued 5,280 arrests.
Mr. Simon. Those are cases issued for investigation. And that is
all types of nonmailable matter. We don't have any breakdown as
to the dealers in obscene matter. It is all types of nonmailable matter.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien or Mr. Simon, while we are on the
question of the nature of the offense and the penalty involved, what
is your opinion on a statute which provides that the equipment that
the pomographer has would be confiscated and not returnable to the
offender ? Are you in favor of such legislation ? That would defin-
itely cut off the production end of the business, as well as some of the
distributing end.
Would you be in favor of such legislation? In other words, if the
photographic equipment were confiscated and if the projector, the
movie projector and the processing of film, that equipment that he
uses for that work confiscated, like it is under the narcotics law and
under the old prohibition law, would you be in favor of such a pro-
vision in the law, whether it be Federal or State?
Mr. Simon. I would, in connection with criminal cases, because I
have experienced such situations where these offenders have been
taken into custody, in using a search warrant and material is con-
fiscated, and thereafter the court ordered the material returned, and
they are back in business again.
Mr. Chumbris. Then, if the equipment were taken away from
them, they couldn't produce these pictures fast enough, and therefore
they couldn't distribute them through the mails; is that right?
296 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Simon. It would at least put them to cousiderable expense in
duplicating them.
Senator Langer. I want to call your attention to the fact that
a man brings in wool from Canada and doesn't pay this duty, or
brings in some of the Selkirk wheat; if he does that, they don't arrest
him and punish him, but they take his trucks, customs takes the trucks,
the automobiles, everything involved in bringing that Selkirk wheat
in, and they sell them. And there is nothing you can do to stop it.
And so some of these men lose trucks costing six or seven thousand
dollars.
We have 70,000 cases up in North Dakota, some are pending right
now in the district court of North Dakota. That is the way to stop
violations of the customs law. Why wouldn't it work here ?
Mr. Simon. I agree with you.
Senator Langer. If an automobile carried some of this obscene lit-
erature, if that automobile could be confiscated, or an airplane carried
it and an airplane could be confiscated, why w^ouldn't that be a good
law to have ?
Mr. Chumbris. A similar law to that has been introduced. Senator.
Senator Langer. But there hasn't been any action on it. You did
a good job of introducing stuff, but nothing has been passed.
Mr, Chumbris, Mr. Simon, on the same issue, we have with us the
Honorable Leslie Burgum, the attorney general of the State of North
Dakota, whose State legislature in 1955, this recent legislature, enacted
such a provision in its law, which he will testify to in a short while.
Senator Langer. Let's have him testify now.
Would you come up, Mr. Burgum. It is not necessary to swear you
in this matter.
(The prepared statement, in full, submitted by Mr. O'Brien is as
follows :)
Statement by William C. O'Brien, Assistant Solicitor, Fraud and Mail-
ABiLiTT Division, Office of the Solicitor, Post Office Department, Wash-
ington, D. C.
The Post OflSce Department receives numerous complaints made by parents
whose children have received advertisements of pornographic books, pictures,
movies, slides, photographs, and other items including trashy sex and crime
stories, filthy novelties and other miscellaneous dirt.
The mailing volume of such advertisements is large and is steadily growing.
The daring and indecency of the advertisements themselves, apart from the in-
decent nature of the items sold, is a menace to public morals both adult and
juvenile.
The increase in this traflSc is due to several principal factors. The ready
availability of the pornography in wholesale lots, the ease and simplicity of
setting up business with comparatively small capital investment and the re-
luctance of the courts to sustain administrative orders denying use of the mails
to such enterprises.
Purveyors of pornography with little to lose by changing name and location
can easily and secvnely accumulate quick profits while the law takes its
leisurely course.
At this point, the committee may wish some discussion of the laws available
to the Post Office Department in dealing with the traffic in obscene matter through
the mails. The laws usually invoked are section 1461 of title 18 United States
Code and section 259a of title 39 United States Code.
Section 1461 declares nonmailable every obscene, lewd, lascivious or filthy
book, pamphlet, letter, writing, print, or other publication of an indecent char-
acter. The statute provides that such matter "shall not be conveyed in the
mails or delivered from any post office or by any letter carrier." This law also
provides penalties of $5,000 fine or 5 years imprisonment or both, for knowingly
depositing obscene matter for mailing or delivery, or for knowingly taking same
from the mails for the purpose of circulating or disposing thereof.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 297
There have been several convictions under the criminal provisions (as Post
Office Inspector Simon will tell you) but compared with the vast volume of the
traffiic in obscenity, such convictions have not proven to be significantly deterrent
to the growing volume and worsening character of that traffic, nor have such
convictions prevented purveyors of pornography from circularizing and selling
to children.
Criminal law enforcement, however, is a limited deterrent where action can
be taken but some of the worst offenders are domiciled in jurisdictions where
indictments and convictions are difficult to obtain. Thus, secure in the well
founded belief they are immune from criminal prosecution, or that jail sentences
are less likely than fines in their home jurisdictions, dealers in pornography use
the mails to advertise and sell their filthy merchandise to people in more con-
servative distant States.
The present law, title 18, United States Codte, section 1461, allows prosecution
of obscenity mailers only at the point of mailing but not at the points where
delivery is made and where the real harm to the community is done.
The Post Office Department is studying legislation to correct this defect in
the law. Such legislation, if passed will amend title 18, United States Code,
section 1461, so as to permit prosecution of dealers in obscenity in the jurisdic-
tions where obscene advertisements and other indecent matter are delivered, or at
the place of mailing.
The passage of this legislation should greatly help to end the comparative
security from prosecution which now encourages and to a degree protects the
owners of many enterprises peddling obscenity to children as well as adults
throughout the country.
The provisions of title 18, United States Code, section 1461, relating to the non-
mailability of obscene matter are administered by the Solicitor's office, in cooper-
ation with the postmasters throughout the country. It is the postmaster's duty to
inspect matter offered for mailing and if he is in doubt as to whether it should be
accepted for mailing, he is required to submit the question to the Solicitor for
the Post Office Department for advice and ruling. Of course, postmasters can-
not open or inspect sealed first-class matter. Consequently, a great deal of
obscenity both in advertising and in the form of nude or otherwise indecent
pictures can escape detection at the point of mailing if sent as first-class
matter. Criminal prosecution is one remedy for such misuse of the mails. The
post office inspectors investigate such mailers and are usually able to secure
evidence for prosecution purposes. Mr. Simon, who handles most of this work
is here and can explain his problems, including his experiences where juveniles
are concerned.
Another remedy for the traffic in obscenity through the mails is provided by
39 United States Code 259a, which authorizes the Postmaster General to issue
orders against parties who are obtaining or attempting to obtain money or
property through the mails for obscene, lewd, lascivous, indecent, filthy, or vile
matter or give information as to how, where or from whom such matter may
be obtained. This law was passed by Congress in 1950. Its enforcement is
subject to the provisions and requirements of the Administrative Procedures Act
(5 U. S. C 1001 et seq.). Therefore, formal charges must be served upon the
person or concern accused of violating the law, who is entitled to a formal
hearing before a hearing examiner. Respondents may avail themselves of
procedural measures which roughly parallel those of a civil court proceeding,
including the right to appeal from the hearing examiner's initial decision and
from the Department's final order.
Skillful maneuvering by a respondent in these cases can cause long delays of
weeks or months before an order finally becomes effective. These protracted
delays sometimes augmented and increased by court orders enable those en-
gaged in selling pornography by mail to accumulate profits without hindrance
and to such an extent that when the Department's order stops the use of the
mails and cuts off their revenue, the exploiters are little concerned and can
start another enterprise, providing a repetition of the same long drawn out
proceeding.
Procedural red tape is a great obstacle to the enforcement of a law which
could swiftly end much of the mail order traffic in obscenity.
All of these enterprises affect juveniles, some by direct appeals to their growing
sexual curiosity and by sensationalism stimulating of abnormal and character-
destroying sensuality. The advertising samples which have been brought here
for the inspection of the committee typify the approach of some of these dealers
about whose use of the mails to circularize children, we receive complaints.
298 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Only a few of such complaints from parents liave been presented. They repre-
sent, in my experience an insignificant fraction of those who have just cause
for complaint. In my opinion, based upon several years association with this
work, not more than one person in several thousand who could complain, will
actually do so. Consequently, the frequency with which we are now receiving
such complaints from parents indicates to me a tremendously wide distribution
of obscene circulars and letters advertising dirty books, pictures, movies, slides,
novelties, et cetera, to children as well as to adults.
Returning to the enforcement of 39 United States Code 259a. and the problem
of procedural delay, I believe the Post Office Department has some hope of
solving this problem if Congress enacts into law H. R. 174 introduced by Con-
gressman Rees of Kansas. This bill would authorize the Postmaster General
to impound the mail of dealers in obscenity pending decision of their cases
before the I'ost Office Department, in circumstances where the protection of the
public warrants such action. Last year we had cases against such a dealer,
whom we called the alphabetical lady. She began her operations with a fictitious
name, such as Afton Publishers. When this was challenged she moved and
sent out circulars under a B name such as Buffton and down the alphabet she
went from place to place, securing mail delivery service for a few weeks until
that phase of her scheme was worked out. Of course, we followed right along
but she was usually a jump ahead. Mail addressed to each new name was im-
pounded temporarily on the ground that it was fictitious, as it was, and we
finally ended that scheme. Had she used corpoi-ate or true personal names, we
would have been practically impotent without express impounding authority
such as provided by H. R. 174.
The committee may be interested to learn that we have issued a complaint
charging Irving Klaw, New York, with violating the provisions of 39 U. S. Code
259a, copy of the complaint is here available to the committee, with some of
his circulars. I am convinced that the charges are sound and sustainable and
that the evidence will warrant and support the issuance of an order against
Klaw's scheme. An increasing number of complaints against Klaw are being
received by the Department.
I also have here complaints issued and pending against Male Merchandise
Mart. Hollywood, Calif.; The Stag Shop, Los Angeles, Calif.; and Tourlanes
Publishing Co., Great Neck, N. Y.
I also have here, as a sample of completed proceeding the case against Gar-
gantuan Books, and Rise & Shine Books, New York, one of the many such
entei'prises conducted by Samuel Roth, whose circular advertisements have
aroused parents to protest against his use of the mails.
Besides the direct order sales of indecent movies, photographs and slides,
there is the big problem of the sex books which purport to be designed and
intended for proper sex instruction but are I'eally advertised and sold by means
of advertising which is plainly designed to arouse the curiosity of the prurient.
Court decisions have, I think, sufficiently excluded from application of the
postal obscenity statutes, the legitimate texts for adults, which discuss sex
and advise mature persons concerning their problems in married life. But the
young and immature are frequently assailed by publicity sensationally dwelling
on the purely carnal and lascivious aspects of sex and by means of advertise-
ments in girly type magazines solicit the small sums for which such book —
and pamphlets may be obtained through the mails. Of course, direct mail ad-
vertising is also used to sell not only tracts a"bout normal sexual life but
also concerning abnormalities and deviations therefrom which, I am informed by
court officers, psychologists and others are extremely detrimental to the morals
of juveniles as well as adults. This evil we deal with as well as we can with
the authority now conferred on the Department by existing laws.
And last but not least we have the constant and rapidly growing problem
of paper back novelties and cheap, trashy, sexy, periodical literature. I may
say that the Post Office Department is gravely concerned about the use of the
mails to distribute such indecent literature. We resist to the utmost the efforts
of those who daily seek to send such matter by mail and great quantities are
excluded by Solicitor's rulings that it may not be carried in the mails vmder
the provisions of 18 U. S. Code 1461. Moreover, the Department has refused to
grant second-class rates to such publications.
Numerous publications containing sexy illustrations and text dwelling las-
civiously on sex episodes and sex crimes reach the public through newsstand
sale. But most of them were distributed by some means of transportation out-
side of the mails, including of course, many entered as second-class matter.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 299
In conclusion, I may say, that the Post Office Department, despite the
handicaps, which I have mentioned, is fully employing its authority under the
law to protect the public from obscenity of all kinds. And may I again com-
mend to the favorable consideration of the committee such legislation as I
have mentioned which will greatly assist the Postmaster General, the Solicitor
and the Chief Post Office Inspector in dealing with this problem.
Would you state your full name and your address and your official
title, for the record '!
STATEMENT OF LESLIE R. BURGUM, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE
STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA, BISMARCK, N. DAK.
Mr. BuRGUM. Leslie R. Burgum, attorney general, Bismarck,
N. Dak.
Mr. Chumbris. And how long have you been the attorney general
for the State of North Dakota?
Mr. Burgum. Since January 3, 1955.
Mr. Chumbris. And, Mr. Attorney General, you were the Attorney
General at the time that House bill No. 825 was introduced and passed
by the Legislature of the State of North Dakota and written into
law?
Mr. Burgum. Yes ; I was, at the time of the passage of House bill
No. 825.
Mr. Chumbris. And the provisions of said law, does it deal with
confiscation of the equipment of a person dealing in pornography ?
Mr. Burgum. Yes ; it does ; section 4 :
Seizure and confiscation of equipment used in production or manufacture
of indecent literature or articles and of vehicles used in distribution of indecent
articles.
Senator Langer. Mr. Attorney General, would you mind reading
that whole section.
Mr. Burgum (reading) :
Any peace officer of this State may seize any equipment used in the printing,
production, or manufactvire of indecent and obscene literature, matter, or articles,
of whatever nature, and may seize any vehicle or other means of transportation
used in the distribution of such indecent and obscene literature, matter, or arti-
cles, and may arrest any person in charge thereof. The procedure prescribed in
chapter 29-31 of the North Dakota Revised Code of 1943 relating to confiscation
of equipment used in the commission of crimes shall apply and shall be followed
in carrying out the provisions of this section.
Senator Langer. That would mean, would it not, that if a truck or
an automobile was used in hauling this literature, and he was arrested,
convicted, you could confiscate tlie truck ?
Mr. Burgum. That would be my interpretation, Senator.
Senator Langer. An airplane or anything else that is used ?
Mr. Burgum. That is correct.
Section 1 refers to films. And I assume — and the title here refers
to pictures. This confiscation section doesn't mention films or pic-
tures, but I assume that "articles of whatever nature" would mean
that you could seize films and projectors, or anything else you could
get ahold of. I certainly would try it.
Mr. Chumbris. Do you believe that such a law would act as a deter-
rent to the manufacture, production, and distribution of obscene
material?
Mr. Burgum. Yes ; I believe it would.
65263—55 20
300 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Chumbris. It would certainly put a lot of people out of busi-
ness, wouldn't it ?
Mr. BuRGUM. Yes ; that confiscation section is rather deadly, because
some of that stuff, the projectors, for instance, automobile, or what-
ever they were using, is expensive.
Mr. Chumbris. And, Mr. Attorney General, I believe that your
State is the first State in the United States that has placed the confis-
cation of pornographers' equipment into law.
Mr. BuRGUM. That may be. I couldn't say as to that. I notice that
this bill was introduced by seven members of the house of representa-
tives, and one of them is Mr. Brooks, State's attorney of Cass County.
That is the county in which the city of Fargo is situated. He was
State's attorney there for a number of years, with Senator Knowles.
Whether or not he had experience with this thing, I am not prepared
to say. But as State's attorney of Stutsman Comity — we use the term
"attorney'' there, in a good many States they use the designation
"county attorney" or "prosecuting attorney" — but I had a little run-in
with it. It comes back to my mind after listening to this testimony
here.
Two women were returning from church. They were both mothers,
and they found on the street a card addressed to any young girl who
might be interested in posing in the nude for a calendar, and that
this party could be reached in a certain way. And they turned it
over to the police. They ran it down, and I think the party left town
before they got anything done about it.
But it comes back to me after listening to this testimony here. That,
evidently, was an operation along this line.
Mr. Chumbris. I might point out at this time, Mr. Burgum, that
from the hearings that we held in New York, we found very little, if
none at all, of actual distribution from the State of North Dakota
to other parts of the country, and the stiffness of that particular
law might be the deterrent that brought that result about.
Senator Langer. All we did find was that some was being shipped
into North Dakota. We found a man that had an office in Fargo
and another office in Minot and another in Grand Forks.
But if any evidence is presented to you, I am sure that you will make
short shrift of the fellow that is doing it, knowing your reputation
for law enforcement out there.
Mr. Burgum. That is right.
These representatives definitely felt there was some danger, some
possibility of this thing developing, because several of them intro-
duced this bill. And it was not introduced at my suggestion. But
it is on the statute books there now.
And the penalty, by the way, is $1,000 fine or a year imprisonment.
And there is a saving clause, too, in the bill :
Any person who violates any of the provisions of this act shall be punishable
by a fine not to exceed $1,000 —
that is the maximum —
or by imprisonment not to exceed 1 year, or both such fine and imprisonment.
Mr. Chumbris. And a survey of the State statutes would show that
the penalty provisions under the new law of North Dakota are much
more stringent than in most of the States ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 301
Mr. BuRGUM. I would suspect that that is the case. I would not
l)e prepared to say, though.
Mr. Chumbris. We have introduced this into our New York hear-
ings, Mr. Attorney General, the brief of the laws dealing with pornog-
raphy of the 48 States. And our survey indicates that North Dakota
does have one of the most stringent laws, especially in view of the
confiscation provision in its statute.
Mr. BuRGUM. Well, that is the measure that is on the books now.
Senator Langer. Any objection to making that law a part of the
record, Mr. Burgum?
Mr. Burgum. No.
Senator Langer. Then it is ordered to be made a part of the record.
Mr. Chumbris. That will be marked "Exhibit No. 32."
(The bill of the North Dakota legislature was marked "Exliibit
No. 32," and reads as follows:)
Thirty-fourth Legislative Assembly of North Dakota
house bill no. 8 25
< Introduced by Representatives Vinje, Roen, Gefreh, Schuler, Langseth, Brooks,
and Hauglaud)
A BILL For an act relating to the prohibition of the buying, selling, distribution, designing,
or disseminating in any way, of obscene ■writings and pictures and providing for the
enforcement and administration of this act and penalties for its violation ; and to repeal
sections 12-2107, 12-2109, and 12-2111 of the North Dakota Revised Code of 1943
Be it enacted hy the Legislative Assembly of the State of North Dakota:
Section 1. Sale, Exhibition and Distribution of Lewd and Obscene Matter
TO PBStsoNs Under Twenty-one Prohibited. — No obscene, lewd, salacious or
lascivious book, pamplilet, picture, paper, letter, magazine, newspaper, writing,
print, printing, film, negative, transcription, wire or tape recording, or other mat-
ter of indecent character, shall be sold, loaned, given away, shown, exhibited, dis-
tributed, advei'tised or offered for sale, loan, gift or distribution, or be held in
possession with intent to sell, loan, give away, show, exhibit, or distribute, to
any one under the age of twenty-one. Any person, firm, copartnership, or cor-
poration who hires, uses, or employs any one under the age of twenty-one to
sell, give away, or in any manner distribute such matter, and any person who,
having the care, custody, or conti'ol of a person under the age of twenty-one
years, permits such person to sell, give away, or in any manner distribute such
matter, shall also be guilty of a violation of this Act. The trial court shall
take into consideration and give due weight to the approval by the national
-association known as the "Comics Code Authority," or such associations suc-
cessors, of any comic books or publications in question under this Act.
Sec. 2. Buying, Selling, Distributing, Exhibiting, Preparing, Possession
"OF. or Bringing Into State Any Equipment for Preparing, Lewd and Obscene
Matteb. — No person, firm, copartnership, or corporation shall buy, sell, cause
to be sold, advertise, lend, give away, offer, show, exhibit, distribute, cause to
T)e distributed, or design, copy, draw, photograph, print, etch, engrave, cut, carve,
make, publish, prepare, assist in preparing, solicit or receive subscriptions for,
or hold in possession with intent to sell, lend, give away, offer, show, exhibit,
distribute, or cause to be distributed or bring or cause to be brought into the
State any obscene, lewd, salacious, or lascivious book, pamphlet, picture, paper,
letter, magazine, newspaper, writing, print, printing, film, negative, transcription,
Avire, or tape recording, cast, cut, carving, figure, image, or other matter, article,
or instrument of indecent character or immoral use, or any equipment, machinery,
or devices used or intended to be used in the preparation, manufacturing or pro-
ducing of such obscene matter and material. The trial court shall take into
•consideration and give due weight to the approval by the national association
Icnown as the "Comics Code Authority," or such associations successors, of any
comic books or publications in question under this Act.
302 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Section 3. Distribution of Indecent Articles: Tie-in Sales.— No person
firm, co-partnership or corporation shall as a condition to a sale or delivery for
resale ot any paper, magazine, book, periodical, or publication require that the
purchaser or consignee receive for resale any other article, book, or other publi-
cation reasonably believed by the purchaser or consignee to be obscene lewd
lascivious, filthy, indecent, or disgusting. '
Section 4. Seizure and Confiscation of Equipment Used in Production or
Manufacture of Indecent Literature or Articles and of Vehicles Used in
Distribution of Indecent Articles Authorized.— Any peace officer of this state
may seize any equipment used in the printing, production, or manufacture of
indecent and obscene literature, matter, or articles of whatever nature and may
seize any vehicle or other means of transportation used in the distribution of
such indecent and obscene literature, matter, or articles, and may arrest any
person m charge thereof. The procedure prescribed in Chapter oq^PA of the
Aorth Dakota Revised Code of 1943 relating to confiscation of equipment used
m the commission of crimes shall apply and shall be followed in carryino- out
the provisions of this section. .r » ui.
Section 5. PENALT^^— Any person who violates any of the provisions of this
Act shall be punishable by a fine of not to exceed one thousand dollars or by
imprisonment for not to exceed one year, or by both such fine and imprison-
ment. The term "person" herein shall include any firm, co-partnership or cor-
poration. '
Section 6. Severability.- Should any part of this Act be adjudged invalid or
unconstitutional, such adjudication shall affect only the part of this Act spe-
wfically covered thereby and shall not affect any other provisions or parts of this
Section 7. Repeal.— Sections 12-2107, 12-2109, 12-2111 of the North Dakota
Revised Code of 1943 are hereby repealed.
Senator Lakger. And I wish, Mr. Chumbris, that you would mail
a copy of that law to every attorney general in the United States, so
that they may have the benefit of the North Dakota legislation, and
they may draw up statutes similar to or even more stringent, if they
want to, so that they will have a guide to go by. Tell them we would
like to have them acknowledge receipt of a copy of that law, if you
would.
If the attorney general of North Dakota can't furnish such copies,
we will have it duplicated and mailed out to them. Also send a copy
to the Attorney General of the United States.
Mr. Chumbris. I might point out, Mr. Chairman, that during the
session that passed this legislation, 1955, our subcommittee was in
North Dakota on official business and other matters. And the Judi-
ciary Committee was very much interested in this problem, and asked
our subcommittee staff members to coordinate the efforts.
Tliat was one instance of excellent coordination between Federal
and State committees, legislative committees, in working on a bill
that, would be a deterrent to this pornographic filth that gets to our
children throughout the country.
Senator Laxger. Senator Kefauver took a great interest in that,
and I remember that he asked the staff particularly to go up to the
Judiciary Committee on North Dakota, they were 'in session at that
time, and bring it to the attention specifically of the iudiciary com-
mittee.
Senator Kefauver told me that there wasn't any objection— I believe
you were out tlisr, Mr. Chumbris— on the part of a single legislator.
1 he matter was presented to them out there at one of their meetings
ot the judiciary committee of the house— I believe it was the joint
meeting of the house and senate out there. It passed without a single
vote m opposition to it.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 303
Senator Kefauver is very proud of the fact, and lie lias a right to
be, that in that State we helped the legislature to set an example for
other States to follow.
Mr. BuRGUM. Of course, there is one thing out there, the distances
are great, and the population is comparatively sparse. There are a
lot of wide open spaces, and you probably don't have the available
market, as readily as you would have it in some of the congested areas.
Mr. Chumbris. INIr. Attorney General, you have heard the testi-
mony of Inspector Blick here earlier this afternoon as to some of
the problems that the police department has in dealing with this
pornographic material, first, in apprehending the culprit, and then
in seeing that he is prosecuted, and then after being j)rosecuted, if
convicted, given sufficient penalty.
In view of the legislation that was introduced and passed by the
State of North Dakota, would you like to comment further, so that
whatever the experience of North Dakota has, it might be transmitted
to the other 47 States in the United States.
Mr. BuRGUM, Well, of course, we haven't had any experience under
this new bill, but I think there is a general tendency to make penalties
too light, to give suspended sentences, or to treat the whole matter so
that it doesn't justify the evidence that is put into the prosecution.
As the inspector pointed out, you make a veiy sincere effort to run
down a crime, and you spend the money of State, and then there is a
suspended sentence given, or a very light penalty, and a promise gotten
from the defendant that he will be good in the future.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you state that much of the failure to give
stiffer penalties for this offense can be attributed to the fact that the
general public has not yet been apprised of the seriousness of this
filth and the fact that it gets to so many children in our Nation ?
Mr. BuRGUM. I think so, very definitely.
To be perfectly frank about it, I didn't realize until I heard the
inspector and the gentlemen here who have been testifying how wide-
spread was the circulation and the money that is involved in this sort
of thing.
Of course, I can remember when I was a boy — and that is a long
time ago- — seeing pictures, but it was unusual, it was a rare thing.
Now apparently it is resorted to on a pretty well organized basis.
Mr. Chumbris. And the magnitude of this particular production
<"aid distribution throughout the country has hit a proportion beyond
the vision of even people who are actively engaged in tracking dowr
this type of crime; is that correct?
Mr. BuRGUM. I think so.
I think that most people, including law enforcement officers out in
our State, have no idea as to the way this is being carried out in, for
instance, some of the large metropolitan centers.
Mr. Chumbris. There was an exhibit introduced here a moment ago
that I would like for you to see. I would like for you to take a look
at that, Mr. Burgum, and see how debased some people have gotten in
this pornographic matter, and how it affects children.
That is a picture portraying a mother and her three children. And
every one of those are under 10 years of age, or even less, as was testi-
fied to by Inspector Blick. I can understand the reason for the great
care that this subcommittee has taken in going into this particular
problem.
304 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Now, nothing went on in our days as a child like that.
Mr. BiTRGUM. No ; it is a new field to me, I am frank to say. I think
that the Federal enactment certainly is justified in a situation of this-
kind.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, as I was pointing out, the magnitude of this
particular business, during the course o'f our investigation in New
York, through the cooperation
Senator Langer. Mr. Chumbris, it isn't only in New York ; we have-
had hearings in California, Palm Springs, showing the literature-
pouring m from Mexico. And San Diego has produced a lot of this
We have had hearings all over the United States, and the situation^
isn't any worse m New York than it is other places.
Mr. Chumbris. That is correct.
I wanted to point out, for comment from the Attorney General, that
while we were conducting hearings in New York that two large raids
were made, one in the southeastern part of the United States, and one-
m the southwestern part of the United States, which indicated the
tremendous amounts of money that is being made in the exportation:
of this pornographic material.
It goes to point out that the magnitude of this particular distribu-
tion and the manufacture of pornography is unlimited. And we are
gaining more and more information day by day as we proceed with
this particular investigation.
In our opinion, with legislation such as was introduced in North
Dakota, and also discussed by Inspector Blick, which is being sub-
mitted by the subcommittee to the Senate on Monday, do you believe-
that legislation along that line will act as a deterrent?
Senator Danger. Just one minute. Not introduced in North
Dakota, but passed in North Dakota, signed by the Governor.
Mr. BuRGUM. I believe so. I believe it would in our State, I son
sure, if it were enforced.
Mr. Chumbris. Are there any other comments that you would like
to make at this time, sir ?
Mr. BuRGUM. I do not know of any, I don't believe.
Senator Danger. Mr. Attorney General, you are familiar with the
fact that in North Dakota during the last 3 years we haven't had a
single murder ; you are familiar with that fact, which was sent out by
J. Edgar Hoover a while ago.
Would you say that perhaps one reason that we have had such a
splendid record out there is due to the fact that we haven't had litera-
tuer of that sort out there in large quantities? We have had very
little of that sort of stuff there; isn't that true?
Mr. BuRGUM. I think that is generally true. You have a pretty
free and open country out there, you know. But I think there is a
little difference — not that the people are any better, but they are
nearer to the hills and to the rivers, and that sort of thing.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Attorney General, I would like to point out
that we have received replies from chiefs of police who state that the
traffic in pornography and obscene literature is hitting the rural
areas at a much greater percentage than it is hitting the local areas
in the past few years.
And therefore, North Dakota, not being confronted with it at this
time, it isn't necessarily true that it will not be confronted with it,
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 305
since in other parts of the country in rural areas this has become a
serious problem. . ^ ^i t ^i ■ i
Mr. BuRGUM. Of course, it may be more prevalent tlian i think.
It may be that it just hasn't come to my attention. But I was assist-
ant State's attornev for a couple of years, and then State s attorney,
and I never had a prosecution for the thing. It may be that this just
didn't head up the right way. -, . i .1 i •
Mr. Chui^ibris. Other than the incidents referred to by the chair-
man, we have had very little information of this particular porno-
o-raphic material getting into or getting out of North Dakota, so our
niformation is similar to the information that you are giving the
committee. t c^. .
But I did want to point out that the rural areas of the United States
have been faced with an increase in this particular traffic.
Senator Langer. Of course, North Dakota is a very religious State.
Some time ago the Saturday Evening Post wrote up North Dakota
from a religious angle, and it showed, for example, in Traill County,
in 3 townships thev have 12 churches. And they had photographs
of some of those churches, and we are very proud of the religious
atmosphere out there in that State,
These churches, as I remember it, are all Lutheran Churches. You
are familiar with Traill County, you have been up there a great
many times, and you know the very fine religious atmosphere that
we have up there. I believe you yourself were at one time head of
the Methodist An^le, isn't that true?
Mr. BuRGUM. Tliat is right; yes.
Senator Danger. And I think you will agree with me that the
people up there are perhaps more religious than they are in most
States ?
Mr. BuRGUM. Well, the Lutheran Church, for instance, is very
strong in that State, because it was settled by people from northern
Europe, German, Scandinavian. The Catholic Church is also strong.
But, as I said about the passage of this bill, you know it was almost
unanimous. Parents — most parents, certainly— are death against this
sort of thing, the parents of children— it would be the last thing they
would want the children to get hold of.
Mr. Chumbris. I would like to make one further comment, Mr.
Chairman, that tlie testimony in our hearings on pornography showed
that one distributor had l7l distributing points in 14 States, most
of which were in rural areas. So it indicates that there is an increased
traffic in rural areas, as well as in the larger cities, throughout the
United States.
Mr. Simon, hearing the testimony of the attorney general from the
State of North Dakota, and also the testimony of Mr. Blick, would you
like to comment on the advisability of stiffer penalties in the statutes,
not only on the Federal level but also on the State level ?
Mr. Simon. As far as the Federal is concerned, I feel that there
should be a minimum sentence imposed, although I don't know how
that could be worked out.
There are a lot of factors that are taken into consideration before a
man is sentenced, such as a presentence investigation, and extenuating
circumstances involved in the individual case. But I do feel that this
considerable traffic is probably responsible for the fact, of course, that
there aren't stiffer penalties imposed.
306 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM C. O'BRIEN AND HAERY J. SIMON—
Resumed
Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. O'Brien, we asked several questions of
Mr. Simon so that it would answer the particular questions that were
coming in from this side of the table.
Would you like to add anything further? I know we distracted
you from your prepared statement. Would you like to add anything
further at this time before we move on to Mr. Simon for a complete
statement from him as to the investigative procedures of the Post Office
Department ?
Mr. O'Brien-. Well, I can say this: That our problem in dealing
with these matters comes into a great variety of indecent matters.
For instance, we not only have these obscene movies which you have
heard a lot about today, these photographic records of indecent con-
duct, both between men and women, and sometimes between persons
of the same sex, these deviate activities, but what you might call the
very lowest and most heinous kind of indecency, but you have other
categories of indecent matter which are a great problem, I think, and
which predispose the mind to accept, and perhaps embrace, the more
horrendous forms of obscenity.
You have the beginning of obscenity introduced to the young, and
I presume to tlie susceptible adult in certain types of periodical litera-
ture, which deal in sex crimes and strip-tease picture, and also in the
sale of slides and post cards, and all kinds of printed matter, drawings,
and pamphlets and books about sex, which are often sold under the
guise of education, which really are sold and advertised in such a
manner as to lead the readers to buy them as pornography.
One of these on the border, Illustrated Sex Facts, we have a pending
matter on that. We are proceeding in the Congress and all over the
country.
As Mr. Simon brought out, there are a great quantity of complaints
against that very company, which I won't name, but you can see it
illustrated. That is part of a page.
The left-hand page is the advertisement of a sex book, and the right-
hand page is part of the contents of the girlie striptease type of mag-
azine in which these people love to advertise, which Irving Klow
advertises in, and a great many people advertise who want to make
money out of selling these types of so-called educational matter.
So you have what you might call a pseudo educational sex book,
which is really something to describe sex, describe the intimacies of
normal and abnormal intercourse.
And of course, I understand and appreciate, and I have recognized
and so said, that sex educational texts have their place, but not in the
indecent. This is a different approach. This uses that which it is
proper to know for improper purposes.
Then we have a sex crime magazine, a little pocket sized magazine
which is sometimes borderline. We have a great deal of trashy, ob-
scene literature which, little by little, breaks down the resistance of
the decent minded, the very worst type of stuff we have to deal with
here.
And we. in the Post Office De]:)artment are trying effectively to en-
force a law against the use of the mails for such matter, if we can
hold it to be indecent and be supported by the courts.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 307
That conipreliends, in my view, as great and as pernicious a volume
of obscenity, and as pernicious an attack upon the morals of the young
as you will find in the more expensive — perhaps more than the var-
ious ex])ensive filthy matter that you have to confront, because it
breaks down the general moral fiber, as I say, and the resistancy which
the normal mind has to indecencv.
Mr. Chumbris. Now, Mr. Sam Roth, who is the publisher of the
matter which you explained in this particular chart, and who was
explaining, for instance, this particular exhibit, which shows a draw-
ing of a naked nnm and a naked woman in a very, very compromising
embrace, and is this particular advertisement which did get into the
hands of minor children, which was sent to our subcommittee
liy the irate parent ; he pointed out that such a drawing, even though
it got into the hands of a juvenile, would not have any effect on them,
although it would have an effect on somebody over 25 years of age.
Would you agree with his thinking on that particular point?
Mr. O'Brien.' No; I do not agree with his thinking on that par-
ticular point, or any point, for Mr. Eoth has been a constant source
of trouble to the Post Office Department for a long period of years.
And while he tells me that he is in effect an apostle of propriety, I
am unable to accept his statement, because every circular, pamphlet,
book or pictu]-e which has emanated from his establishment has been
of the nature which I have considered tending to degrade the morals
of the public.
Mr. Chumbris. Are there any other particular charts there, Mr.
O'Brien, that you would like to explain to us at this time? I see
that you have some very beautiful charts, and one that has taken quite
a bit of effort on the part of the Post Office Department to put to-
gether.
Mr. O'Brien. Well, we tried to assemble — I am afraid rather
hastily — some sample of the literature about which we have com-
plaints from juveniles being the addressees.
This is the Tourlanes case.
I don't know any others that I can talk about, because some of them
are still pending cases.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you like to read a sample letter from an
irate parent?
Mr. O'Brien. Well, there are a lot of them here.
Mr. Chumbris. This is merely a cross-section of what the Post
Office Department has received ; is that correct?
Mr. O'Brien. Very small sample ; yes, sir.
I have one here which was sent to a 12-year-old girl, and to a 15-
year-old girl, a 13-year-old boy— I don't know whether these people
are willing to have their complaints incorporated in the record, or
their names.
Mr. Chumbris. You can omit the names; just read the contents.
Most of these were mailed to teen-age boys, 17, 13, and 1 was mailed
to a 12-year-old child. In fact, one child wrote in and said, "I am
a 16-year-old girl, and I received the sex advertisement in the mail,
and i want to know why it was sent to me." The children themselves
resented this.
And, of course, another thing that I should mention is that appar-
ently the mailing lists which are used by many of these people include
the names of those that are registered at prep schools and academies,
308 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
and such places. And they hope that some of the boys will buy sets
of these dirty pictures and dirty pamphlets and circulate them among
the student body, and thereby make a lot more sales.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. O'Brien, there was testimony adduced at our
previous hearing which indicated that Mr. Irving Klaw, whom you
mentioned earlier in your testimony, had at least, I think, 60 percent
of his mailing list made up of yoimg girls between the ages of 6 to 16
for the movie stills.
He is known as one of the kings of the pinup girls.
Now, that means that Mr. Klaw could use that mailing list also
for the distribution of his circulars, such as the circulars you have
on these various exhibits.
Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir.
And I might say that Mr. Klaw is the most prolific producer and
the most regular printer of illustrated circulars sliowing these torch
pictures and so-called pinup — women wrestling ; women, of course, in
suggestive attitudes ; women boxing ; women strolling with each other ;
women tearing each other's clothes off — we have movies which we
can show the committee.
Mr. CnuMBRis. Mr. O'Brien, the technical name for some of those
pictures is fetish, bondage pictures ; is that correct ?
Mr. O'Brien. They are bondage, or fetish pictures, where the girls
are tied up or being spanked or beaten, or where they wear heavy
leather boots, or other equipment which tends to exhibit the acti\dty of
their limbs.
That, of course, is his principal stock in trade.
Mr. Chumbris. I show you here an exhibit which was introduced
in the previous hearings, showing a catalog put out by Irving Klaw,
the pinup king.
Are these examples of the type of advertisements that go through-
out the country, and many of them reach minors ?
Mr. O'Brien. Yes, sir. This is a very good sample of a large
catalog.
He also sells a smaller catalog frequently.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you please read into the record some of the
types of pictures as he personally describes them in his own catalog?
Mr. O'Brien. Well, one caption here is entitled "New Cheesecake
Photos," photos of models showing various poses. Movies No. 254,
"Chris Strips for Bed;" "Our new high heel movie entitled 'Chris
Strips for Bed," starring new model Frisk Penneas." And it is avail-
able in both 8-millimeter and 16-millimeter size.
Mr. Chumbris. About some of the bondage pictures, does he have
some of those portrayed in that catalog ?
Mr. O'Brien. May I say, before I answer that, that I just had a
day-long conference with a psychiatrist attached to one of the larger
courts in this country, who discussed these pictures and pointed out
the fetish aspects, the sexually stimulating fetish features like the
high heels and the boots.
Mr. Chumbris. Would you give that doctor's name, please.
Mr. O'Brien. I want to use him as a witness. Do you mind if I
clon't give it right now ?
Mr. Chumbris. Might I point out, in the testimony on these partic-
ular pictures Dr. George Henry of Cornell University testified to the
fact that these particular pictures have a greater effect, an impact,
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 309
on certain sudden persons than a nude picture or a picture with slight
-clothing.
Would you agree?
Mr. O'Brien. My information, from many cases involving con-
ferences with psychiatrists and others, is that they incite people to
.crime. - . , i
Mr. CiiuMBRis. That is the bondage and fetish people you are re-
ferring to ?
Mr. O'Brien. That is right.
As I said before, I have issued a complaint against Mr. Klaw, and
1 have a copy here. . ^ t t^ i
Senator Langer. I think you have read the testimony of J. i.dgar
Hoover on this matter, too.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, we didn't get to your particular state-
ment'but asked certain questions of you. We would like for you
to make whatever comments you would like to make at this particular
time on your activity on behalf of the Post Office Department to curtail
pornographic matters from getting into the mails.
Mr. Simon. We subscribe to a large number of magazines, and also
purchase a number of magazines on the newsstands. These maga-
:zines are examined for ads of suspect dealers in obscene matter, and
such advertisements are used as a basis for a large number of our
investigations. j. n • •
These investigations are conducted through the use of fictitious
names and what is known as test correspondence. As a result of
such correspondence, I have used, oh, possibly 200 names in connection
with this work. As a result, these names have gotten on mailing
lists of various dealers in obscene matters, and we have seen a large
number of circulars from all parts of the country.
Such circular matter is also made the basis of investigation. In
addition, we get thousands of complaints from the public during the
course of the'year, from persons who have received such literature,
and including a large number from parents of juveniles.
We examine our files, and if there is no investigation under way,
we do institute an investigation. So we do make an investigation of
every case that is brought to our attention, either in the form of
advertising or, either through periodical advertising or unsolicited
circular matter, as well as complaints from the public.
We don't have any particular difficulty with the extremely porno-
graphic matter, such as Inspector Blick described this morning.
Most United States attorneys don't prosecute in that type of case.
But we very rarely will get a United States attorney to authorize
prosecution in connection with this type of matter, over which we
have most of our difficulty.
Senator Langer. The United States attorneys have got to obey the
Attorney General. What is the attitude of the Attorney General
on it ; do you know ?
Mr. Simon. They are quite upset over a lot of complaints that
have been received^ and it is left up to the individual United States
attorneys as to whether they desire prosecution. But most United
States attorneys, with respect to this type of matter, feel that they
will not be successful in prosecuting.
310 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Most of our difRciilty is in the larger cities, and we feel that if
we could get legislation that would permit prosecution at the offices
of address, we would be able to curb a number of these.
I have for the past 6 or 7 years been endeavoring to obtain a con-
viction at the office of address in connection with the mailing of
obscene matter, that is, prosecute the mailer at the office of address
under sections 1461 and 3237.
Section 3237 states that where the mails are used, it is a continuing
offense, and prosecution can be instituted at the office of mailing
address or any point through which it passes.
We have obtained a number of indictments in various jurisdictions,
but almost invariably the defendants have entered a plea of guilty.
And we have had very few contested cases. But in one case of the
larger dealers in obscene matter, we had an 82-count indictment re-
turned in the State of Kansas approximately 4 or 5 years ago, against
one of the larger dealers in this type of material, stuff' such as is dis-
played here. They were completely nude, but not the action type of
photograph, or motion picture film.^
The judge in the district court held that the offense was complete
when the matter was deposited in the mails in California, and he
dismissed the indictment. The case went up to the court of appeals
at Denver, and the court of appeals sustained the lower courts.
Now, we have introduced legislation, as Mr. O'Brien mentioned,
which is pending before the budget now, as I understand, to permit
prosecution at the office of mailing address or any point through
which it passes, that is, amended the basic law of 1461, which would
overcome the oi)jection raised by the court of appeals.
Senator Laxger. Would you write a letter to Budget Bureau-
ask Senator Kefauver to send a letter to the Budget Bureau, enclos-
ing some of these pictures ? I think it would influence the Bureau
to give its consent to favorable legislation on this.
Mr. Simon. I think tliat legislation was introduced last sevssion
and never left the budget.
Mr. CiiUMBRis. Do you remember the number of the bill ?
Mr. Simon. No, unless Mr. O'Brien has that.
Mr. Chumbris. What was the number of that bill during the last
legislature?
'Mr. O'Brien. Wliich bill ?
Mr. Chumbris. The one which makes it an offense on both ends.
Mv. O'Brien. I don't know.
Mr. Simon. I might possibly have that confused with the impound-
ing bill.
Mr. O'Brien. The impounding bill is 174 of this Congress.
Mr. Simon. That is in this Congress, too?
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, on this question of the United States
attorneys being relunctant to prosecute on the Klaw tvpe of a picture
that is being sent through the mails, since the Soliday investigation
and conviction in Baltimore in May of this year, don't you think
that that would encourage their action also against pictures put out
by Klaw that are sent through the mails ?
Mr. Simon. Since that hearing up in New York I am beginning
to notice more sympathy from the United States attorneys.
Mr. Chumbris. You will note that Mr. Klaw did not testify as to
his activities, but took advantage of the immunity clause of tlie fifth
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 311
jiniendment when he was called as a witness in the hearings in
New York.
Mr. SiMOx. I recall that.
Mr. CiiuMBRis. Have you anything further to add at this time,
Mr. Simon?
Mr. Simon. I might mention a case which just came to my attention
about 6 weeks ago. It is the first time in my experience where I have
found a minor involved in the sale and distribution through the mails
of extremel}' pornographic matter.
In the middle of April I caused the arrest of a IG-year-old high-
school boy, who had just turned 16 in April, for engaging in the sale
of extremely pornographic matter. He mimeographed and sent
through the mails a large number of lists of approximately 51 porno-
graphic post picture films.
And that boy came from a very fine family, mother and father
separated. The mother knew that the youngster was engaged in the
mail-order business, but he developed this extremely pornographic
business about last August, I think he said, the latter part of August,
and since then up to the time of his arrest he sold over $3,000 worth
of i)ornographic film.
We have ascertained from the boy his source of supply, and that
matter is now before the United States attorney at Los Angeles, in
which district the supplier was located.
Mr. Chumbris. Mr. Simon, I would like to ask you, the testimony
that you are receiving now, the psychiatric testimony, has it been to
the effect that the fetish and the bondage type of a picture is one that
is sufficient to come within the definition set forth by our courts as
to what constitutes obscene and lewd ?
Mr. Simon. Well, there has been considerable difference of opinion
on that particular score. I have spoken to several psychiatrists, and
while they feel that it has a demoralizing effect on the persons whose
minds are open to such type of material, they have been reluctant
to testify.
Xow, as Mr. O'Brien said, we discussed this matter with one of
the leading psychiatrists in the country, who will testify for us in
this Klaw case.
Mr. Chumbris. May I point out that in the Soliday case in Balti-
more, the psychiatrist definitely testified it was upon his testimony
that the jury brought in a verdict of conviction ; that bondage pictures
and fetish pictures w-ere sufficient to incite lust, and thereby came
within the definition of the court.
And also, the psychiatrist. Dr. George Henry, from Cornell Uni-
versity, testified to the same effect. And I believe, if you examine the
testimony of Dr. Karpman, from St. Elizabeths Hospital, you will
find that this testimony was supporting the position of the other two
psychiatrists, Avhich Avould indicate that the trend of psychiatric
thinking would be sufficient to obtain convictions in the type of pic-
tures that are being sent through the mail by Mr. Klaw.
Mr. Simon. I have discussed the Klaw case with Dr. Karpman on
several occasions. I had also interested the United States attorney
over in Baltimore in the prosecution of Klaw in the district of
Marvland.
312 JUVENILE DELENTQUENCY
But after the decision of the court of appeals in Denver, holding^
that you can't prosecute the mailer at the post office of address, we had.
to give up that particular phase.
The United States attorney at New York has declined to proceeds
Mr. Chumbris. Could you give us the sort of material that this.
36-year-old boy was distributing that you are referring to?
Mr. Simon. It is a dealer in the vicinity of Los Angeles. The mat-
ter is now before the United States attorney at Los Angeles. The man
has not been arrested, to my knowledge, and is awaiting action of the-
grand jury.
Under those circumstances, I don't think you want to make his
name public.
Senator Langer. We do not.
Mr. Simon. I will be glad to tell you his name in private.
Mr. Chumbris. I have no further questions.
Senator Langer. I want to thank everybody that was here today.
I want to thank especially the attorney general from North Dakota
for coming down here. I want to thank him for giving us the benefit
of his experience.
I want you to know, on behalf of Senator Kef auver, that we appre-
ciate your cooperation.
I want to thank the post office authorities. We appreciate the kind
of cooperation we have received from you everyplace, whether it has
been Los Angeles, New York, or wherever it was, we found we could
rely upon you to help us out.
Mr. Simon. The chief inspector is anxious to cooperate with every-
body.
Senator Langer. This hearing is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4: 10 p. m., the hearing was adjourned.)
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(Obscene and Pornographic Materials)
SATURDAY, JUNE 18, 1955
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile
Delinquency, of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Los Angeles^ Calif.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 40 a. m., at room
518, United States Post Office and Court House Building, Los Angeles,
Calif., Senator Estes Kefauver presiding.
Present : Senator Kefauver.
Also present : James H. Bobo, counsel ; and William Haddad and
Carl Perian, consultants.
Chairman Kefauver. This morning the subcommittee will study the
relationship of pornographic materials to juvenile delinquency.
Hearings on this subject have already been held in New York City
and Washington.
Last year the subcommittee, during its community hearings, discov-
ered that pornography was getting into the hands of children. Wlien
the work of this subcommittee was resumed this year, we decided that
a further study of this situation was long overdue.
Our contention was fortified by letters from every section of this
country, complaining about the pornographic materials reaching
children.
Psychiatrists called before the subcommittee testified that a direct
relationship between pornography and juvenile delinquency existed.
A 110-percent increase in sex crimes may be attributed, in part, to these
materials.
Undoubtedly, pornography is one of the contributing factors to the
increase in juvenile delinquency and sex crimes in the United States.
This business thrives on the young inquisitive mind, and the por-
nographers slant much of their materials to children.
Society is often derelict in providing the proper sex education for
our youngsters. When a child doesn't have this proper sex education,
he is forced to search in the gutter for his information. In the gutter
he finds this filth.
The abnormal is portrayed as the normal. Adults engage in illicit
acts, lending prestige to the situation and creating the wrong impres-
sion in the child's mind.
One shocking fact uncovered by this subcommittee is that pornog-
raphy is big business in the United States. Conservative estimates
jdace the gross sale of these materials at three to four hundred million
dollars a year. Much of this money comes from the lunch and allow-
ance money of our children.
313
314 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
This traiRc exists because of gaping loopholes in Federal legislation.
Under present laws, a pornographer cannot ship his materials
through the mails. But he can load up a truck and move his filth
across State lines with complete ease.
I'f the Congress acts on our recommendations, this situation will be
cleared up.
Postal and custom laws must also be tightened. After these hear-
ings, our recommendations will be presented to the Congress.
But not only has the Federal Government been derelict in its duties ;
local communities have failed to protect our children from these por-
nographic materials.
These big-business pornographers are often let off with slight fines
and suspended jail sentences. One of the biggest operators in the
country — a man our subcommittee investigators have tracked
throughout the East — was recently released on a $50 bail which he
forfeited. He will soon be arrested in another community, if the pat-
tern of his past activities is any indication. And he will probably be
let off with another slight fine. Most communities have no way of
knowing about this man's vicious activities.
Every commmiity in this country must look at its own laws and in-
vestigate its own situation. Only through an alert public opinion
can these pornographers fuially be stopped.
Here in California the subconnnittee is exploring another phase of
this vast business — that of the mass mailing of pornographic and
semi])ornographic materials.
Our preliminary investigations indicate that much of these ma-
terials are mailed here in California.
Numerous reports have reached our office complaining that these
materials were mailed to children as young as 10 years. The post
office, too, has received similar reports.
Several witnesses appearing before us in New York City used the
])rivilege of the fifth amendment in refusing to answer our questions.
Members of the subcommittee felt that this privilege was improperly
used and we have recommended that certain witnesses be cited for con-
tempt of Congi^ess. Certain other witnesses will be charged with
perjury.
I hope that our witnesses today will consider very carefully their
decision on whether or not to cooperate with the subcommittee's in-
vestigation.
Pornography is a difficult subject to talk about. Certain dangers
arise from spotlighting this situation. But do we hide our heads in
the sand like an ostrich? Or do we bring out the facts in the most
candid manner, and have the warm sunlight of public opinion act to
stop this menace ? I think we must proceed forward with this study
and rely upon the good judgment of our citizenry. It is far better to
see and stop than to close our eyes and let this business grow and
grow.
At this point I want to thank very much the Los Angeles Police
Department and also the postal inspectors who have been of great
help to us. They have cooperated wonderfully with our subcommit-
tee, and they are very alert to the problem that is with us out here
in southern California; have been taking active and affirmative meas-
ures to do something about it. They have been very thorough and
painstakingly helpful to the staff of our subcommittee in working up
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 315
the hearing today. Also the sheriff's office and several of his deputies
have been very line to us.
Mr. Bobo, who is our first witness this morning?
Mr. Bobo. JNIrs. Mary Dorothy Tager.
Chairman KErAu\T.R. Mrs. Tager, will you come around and will you
hold up your hand.
(Mrs. Tager was sworn.)
Cluiirman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo. We want to give everj?--
body a chance to be heard and develop our case as fully as possible.
This is Saturday and I know that everybody would like to get away
as soon as we possibly can, so you interrogate Mrs. Tager.
TESTIMONY OF MARY DOEOTHY TAGER, BALBOA, CALIF.
Mr. BoBO. Mrs. Tager, would you state your full name and your
address and where you are presently living for the record ?
]\Irs. Tager. Mary Dorothy Tager, 2100 Ocean Boulevard, Balboa,
Calif.
]Mr. Bobo. Mrs. Tager, are you married ? Do you have a family ?
Mrs. Tager. I am not married; I am divorced. I have a family.
I have a girl, Dorothy, 17. I have a boy, David, 15.
Mr. Bobo. Mrs. Tager, have you ever been engaged in a mail order
business of sending photos and other things through the mail?
Mrs, Tager. Yes, sir ; I have.
]\Ir. Bobo. At what time did you begin in this business ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I would say some time later in 1948, and I was
active in the business uj), oh, until some time in 1051.
]\Ir. Bobo. Were you in the business by yourself ?
^Irs. Tager. No ; I was in with my ex-husband and a partner.
Mr. Bobo. And under what trade name did you operate this business ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, actually, under several. We operated under
Stand-Out Products, NoA^el Arts, T and R Sales. They are the main
names we operated under. We also operated under, oh, many hun-
dreds, I guess, of fictitious names.
]Mr. BoBO. In this business what was the merchandise which you
sold. Mrs. Tager?
Mrs. Tager. I sold nudes, straight nudes, nothing pornographic,
consisting of slides, black and white films, 8 and 16 millimeter, 60,
100, 400-foot reels.
Mr. BoBO. Would you put the microphone over closer to you ?
Mrs. Tager. My nudes were nudes. I mean, as you would see on
any calendar. It was not nothing
Chairman Kefauver. Mrs, Tager, will you talk a little louder so
we can all hear? Pull the microphone a little closer to you.
Mrs. Tager. As I say, my nudes were straight nudes. They weren't
wliat you could classify as pornographic. They were no different than
you would see on any calendar or any magazine j^ou pick up on a
newsstand.
Mr. BoBO. In these nudes which you sold, many of them were in
various suggestive poses. Would you mean by the fact that they were
not pornographic, was that they might not he considered under the
present laws pornographic?
Mrs. Tager. Well. no. Personally I don't consider a picture of a
nude woman as pornographic. I think it definitely depends on the
65263—55 21
316 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
way the woman is loosed or — now, to me pornographic material woukl
be more in a strip sequence that would be very suggestive, more so
than a straight nude.
Mr. BoBO. Did you sell these particular nudes and novelty cards
through the United States mail ^
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. How would you secure the names of customers to whom
you were sending this ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, there are many sources. Of course, magazine
advertising is one of the main sources of your names. There are many
ads appearing even today in magazines or comic books, which is more
or less a come-on actually for nude picture buyers. So over a period
of time from the replies you get from these various magazines, you
accunnilate a very large mailing list.
Mr. BoBO. Do you buy these mailing lists from other persons, from
the publishers of so-called legitimate magazines^
Mrs. Tager. Yes; that can be done. That can be done.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever purchase any mailing addresses from any
of the so-called legitimate magazines I
Mr. Tager. No. I purchased mailing names from Mosley, who
was — well, that is a legitimate place of business where they
Chairman Kefauver. I didn't understand that name. Mosley'^
Mrs. Tager. Mosley.
Chairman Kefauaer. How do you spell it ^
Mrs. Tager. M-o-s-l-e-y, I believe.
Chairman Kefai^ver. And where is Mosley's establishment ?
Mrs. Tager. Well now, he is through the Middle West somewhere.
Offhand I couldn't tell you.
Chairman Kefau\^er. You mean
Mrs. Tager. I have forgotten just where it is: it has been so long.
Chairman Kefauver. ^^^lat is the official name of the companv,
Mosley?
Mrs. Tager. Mosley Mailing Lists, I imagine.
Chairman Kefauver. Mosley Mailing Lists?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. That is a legitimate house where they sell mail-
ing lists to anyone that has anything to sell.
Mr. BoBO. You don't know what city in the Midwest he is located
in?
Mrs. Tager. Offhand, I don't. I don't — it's been so long since I
have contacted this concern.
Mr. BoBo. In buying mailing lists from Mosley or from others, was
there any specification as to the names that would a])pear on these
mailing lists, as to the type of people whom you wanted to mail to?
Mrs. Tagfj{. Well, yes. If you were going to buy a mailing list,
naturally you would buy a list of men buyers who were interested in
similar merchandise.
Mr. BoBo. Did you make any effort to determine, when you received
the mailing list, as to just who the ])eople were; whether these were
men buyers? Included on these mailing lists would be names of men
and women both, wouldn't there?
Mrs. Tager. Yes; that is true.
Mr. BoBo. Most of these mailing lists were really just compilations
of names and addresses without any specification that they be people
Avho purchased nude photographs?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 317
Mrs. Tager. Oh, that is true. That is tmie. T mean tliere would be
no actual way of knowing. You would only have the person you
bou<zht the names from, you would only have their word that they
were buyers of merchandise that would be similar to what you were
selling. T , •
Mr. BoBo. Mrs. Tager, I want to get back to the mailing lists m
iust a moment; but, first, in securing these nude photos which you
sent out through the mail, also the other novelty items, where would
vou secure the models for these photos ?
" Mrs. Tager. Well, there are various places where models are gotten.
I believe most of the models we used came from U. C. L. A., the college
here.
Mr. BoBO. In using these girls, who did the photography work ?
Mrs. Tager. AVell, there were photographers working for us. In
other words, we would buy the negatives from the various photog-
raphers.
Mr. BoBO. The age of these girls which you used to pose for the
pictures, were there any specifications as to the age that the girl
would be?
Mrs. Tager. Well, naturally, we weren't going out— I don t believe
any photograi^her with any" conscience is going to photograph a
minor. I would say most of the girls run from 21 to maybe 25.
Mr. BoBO. Did you secure any of the models yourself at any time?
Mrs. Tager. No; I never did. Mr. Tager used to shoot when we
first went into business — he used to do his own shooting of the models,
but then as we grew it wasn't profitable to spend time shooting the
models. It was much more profitable to just buy the negatives.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever purchase any negatives of nude photos
from Andy's Agency here in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Tager. No.
^Iv. BoBo. Have you ever done any business whatsoever in pur-
chasing i^hotographs from an Andy Anderson?
]Mrs. Tager. No; I have never purchased anything from Andy
Anderson. In fact, I know the man by sight only. I know very little
about him.
Mv. BoBo. Have vou ever secured any models through Mr. Anderson,
or do you know whether or not your husband ever secured any models
through Mr. Anderson?
Mrs. Tager. I never did. Now, whether Mr. Tager did or not, that
I could not sav.
Mv. Bono. On these negatives that you would buy from a pliotog-
rapher, who would do the printing of these materials for you?
Mrs. Tager. Well, most of our printing was done at Quantity
Photos. That is at Sunset and Western.
Mr. BoBo. Here in Los Angeles, Calif.?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir; but most any — I found that most any i)hoto-
graphic house that is set up to do work in quantity will do your work
for you. 1 1 T 5
Mr. I^oBO. Have you ever done business with any other photoshopf
jNIrs. Tager. Well, yes. In fact, there has been actually, I guess
ovei- a period of time, there has been quite a few.
Mr. Bono. Do you have the names of any others with whom you
might haA'e done business?
318 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes. There is quite a few. Frank Rode, he did
some of our prints for us.
Mr. BoBO. Where is lie located?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I believe he is still at Keystone Studios on Olive
2"ight now.
Mr. BoBO. Here in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes ; and his place of business on East 12th Street. I
know there were several others, but otlhand I can't truthfully think
of their names.
INIr. BoBO. What was the cost to you of the photographs which you
would send out in a mail package ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I am afraid I don't understand j'ou on that.
You would have to specify.
Mr. BoBO. You were selling a pacl^age. You advertised that you
would sell a package of 6 nude photographs, or in whatever quantity
you sold them, 1 photograph. What would be the cost to you of that
photograph.
Mrs. Tager. Well, that would be kind of difficult to break down.
It could be done, but there would be quite a time to break that down in
this respect. You would have to take your — after all, you have your
eniploj'ees, you have a terrific overhead. You have your advertising
costs and everything. Of course, that is all — —
Mr. BoBO. Well, Mrs. Tager, I was meaning from the producer of
the photograph, the studio from which you bought it.
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. What was the cost to you of that photograph?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I used to pay two-iifty a negative.
Mr. BoBO. TAvo-fifty a negative?
Mrs. Tager. For one negative.
Mr. BoBO. From the negative, what was the cost of the finished and
developed picture?
Mrs. Tager. Well, various prices. One time I was paying $11, and
it was broken down as far as $7 for a hundred.
Mr. BoBO. $11 and $7 a hundred?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. At various prices.
Mr. BoBO. You bought them in large quantities ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. Depending on the quantit}', there would be a
terrific breakdown.
Mr. BoBO. What was the quantity you usually purchased from
them ?
Mrs. Tager. Oh, I might possibly go in with 25, 30, or 40 sets of
8, and have a thousand of each made up.
Mr. BoBO. You sold these
^Mrs. Tager. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending upon how
the stock was depleted.
Mr. BoBO. And from these sets of 8 which you sold, they cost you
$7 a hundred ?
Mrs'. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. And vou sold them for what, Mrs. Tager?
Mrs. Tager. $2 a set.
Mr. Bono. $2 a set?
Mrs. Tager. Of eight, yes.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 319
Mr. BoBO. Mrs. Tager, in mailing these photos through the mail,
although you did not regard them as pornographic, you had a great
deal of difficulty with the post-office authorities; is that right?
Mre. Tager. That is right.
Mr. BoDo. You attempted in many ways to avoid the various' postal
regulations dealing with mailing this type of material out to the
country ?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct.
Mr. Bono. When you would set up a business, such as I think at
one time you operated the Paragon — was it Paragon Books?
Mrs. Tager. No.
Mr. BoBO. What was the name of one of your businesses?
Mrs. Tager. Stand-Out Products.
Mr. BoBo. The Stand-Out Products, would you rent office space?
Mrs. Tager. For them ?
Mr. BoEO. Yes.
Mrs. Tager. Oh, yes ; post office boxes, mailing addresses, post office
space.
Mr. BoBo. Would you place advertisements in magazines or news-
papers or any other media of advertising ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. With whom would you place this advertising, would
you place it with an agency or directly with the magazine.
Mrs. Tager. No; through an agency, through an agency.
Mr. BoBo. What advertising agency did you use to place your
advertising ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, at the time — most of my business was given to
McKee, Burns & McKee.
Chairman KeFx\uver. Have her spell these names.
Mrs. Tager. McKee, M-c-K-e-e, I believe.
Mr. BoBO. McKee
Mrs. Tager. Burns & McKee.
Mr. BoBO. Let's get that name clear, Mrs. Tager. It is McKee,
Burns & McKee?
Mrs. Tager. & McKee.
Mr. BoBo. Burns, B-u-r-n-s ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. McKee, Burns & McKee ?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct.
Mr. BoBo. Where are they located ?
Mrs. Tager. They were on Western Avenue when I did business
with them. Where they are today I couldn't say.
Mr. BoBO. You don't know whether or not they are still in business ?
Mrs. Tager. No ; I don't know.
Mr. BoBo. At what date did you do business with them ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I w^ould say through, oh, somewhere around
the end of '49, '50, and possibly part of '51.
Mr. BoBO. Did you prepare the advertising copy that would be
used in the various magazines ?
Mrs. Tager. Both my husband and I.
Mr. BoBO. Was there ever any question asked you as to the type
of merchandise which you were selling through this advertising ?
Mrs. Tager. No ; I can't say that truthfully we were questioned too
much about what we were selline;.
320 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. In drawing- these ads and preparing the advertising
copy, it was your idea to make them as sexually suggestive and as
sexually attractive as possible, would you say ?
Mrs.TAGER. Oh, yes. After all, we were advertising material that
the buyer hadn't seen. Any ad has to be — well, an ad is a come-on
to buy the materials, so naturally our ads, we would go as far as
possible with them.
Mr. BoBO. In this ad there was a suggestion, generally, that it
might be pornographic in nature or be more than just a plain strip
photo ?
Mrs. Tager. No. I more or less don't believe that. I do believe
that when a person, an individual, answers an advertisement, a maga-
zine, say, for a pinup, I believe he expects eventually to get nudes;
but I don't believe that he completely expects to get pornographic
pictures. I think a great majority are satisfied with just a nude.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know the names of any of the magazines in
which your advertisements haA^e appeared ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes ; there are many. I mean, all of the girlie maga-
zines they have appeared in.
Mr. BoBo. You speak of girlie magazines. You are speaking of
what type of magazine?
jVIrs. Tager. '\^"ell, you have got Pic and See and Hit and Miss and
Male and Man and all that.
Mr. BoBO. That type of publication?
Mrs. Tager. All that type of magazine.
Mr. BoBO. Did they play in any so-called romance magazines?
Mrs. Tager. We have had a few ads in those magazines, but they
never proved profitable.
Mr. BoBO. Did they ever appear in any of the comic-book type of
magazine?
Mrs. Tager. Not that I know of ; no.
Mr. BoBO. Did you specify any particular type of magazine in
which thev would appear ?
Mrs. Tager. AVell, naturally a magazine that would be full of pin-
ups is the b(«t medium for you to get your customers from. Where
thev have magazines that are full of pinups, if they want more they
would answer your ad and then you have a buyer for your nudes.
Mr. BoBO. You also advertised, in addition to the strip series of
photos which you made, movies of nude girls?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Weren't some of these movies of nude girls in rather
suggestive poses or rather suggestive or sexual or sensual actions?
Mrs. Tager. Well now, that would be debatable. To my way of
thinking, no.
Mr. BoBo. Well, they don't just have the girl standing there with a
movie camera.
Mrs. Tager. No, but actually there aren't too much on those movies.
Mr. BoBO. The girls go through some sort of contortions or dances
or some type of action?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. I had one that did a swimming act in the water.
That to my way of thinking was quite — it was very good. I mean,
there was nothing that could be classed — I mean, you could go to a
moving picture show and see practically the same thing today.
Mr. BoBO. Except for the fact that they would be dressed?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 321
iNIrs. Ta(;er. Well, sometimes they are not always dressed com-
pletely.
Mr^ 15oRO. Would this ])articiilar ad be a representative ad of the
type of ad which you used in your magazine ?
Mrs, Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBo. And that would be designed more or less to show various
girls in various acts, dances, and so forth ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, that could be, yes.
Mr. BoBO. And it was designed not to appeal particularly to the
patrons of the arts, but more to those who prefer some emotional
stimulation from these pictures ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, that again is debatable, because my mailing list,
over 60 percent of my customers were doctors.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know how many-
Mrs. Tager. They are professional men, so
Mr. Bop.o. Excuse me.
Mrs. Tager. So I kind of doubt — I mean, that — well, maybe a pic-
ture like that would tend to excite them. I really don't know.
Mr. BoBO. This particular type of picture appearing in a magazine,
do you think that might attract a sexually inquisitive youngster to
buy something to find out about sex ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, it is possible. Of course, I have always been on
the theory, when I was in business, that a child — if your prices were
high enough, a child would not have the money to come ahead and send
for your material. A quarter he would have, or 50 cents or a dollar;
but if your material is high enough, I think that in itself more or less
scares some of the children away from buying the material. Of course,
most children today have quite a bit of money,
Mr. BoBO. Well, 3'our strip series set, the photos sold from what,
$2 a set?
Mrs. Tager. But they weren't strip. I didn't handle strip photos.
Mine were strictly nudes.
Mr, BoBO, Well, a strip of nudes ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes,
Mr, BoBO. And here you have a special, 48 different photos for $10.
Mrs. Tager. No.
Mr, BoBO. Which would not be out of reason of any of the children
in this country todav ?
Mrs, Tager. Welf, that is true.
Mr, BoBO, And on your order form wdiich I have here there is no
lequest that the person sending in for any of your photos list his name
or, I mean, list his age ?
Mrs. Tager, Well, even if he did, it wouldn't do much good ; because
you can take a boy 17 years old and it is pretty hard to tell if you
get an order from him through the mail whether he is 17 or 70, He
is not, naturally, going to put his age down as 17; so I never felt —
well, for a while there, in fact, I sent out an inquiry slip before I ever
sold any of my nudes. When I would get a reply from a magazine,
I would send a pinup in reply to that ad, and before I would send a
person a come-on letter like that for the nudes I would send a letter
of inquiry with the age and ever^4lling on it, and I always asked if
they were photographers or artists, sculptors; and it was amazing
all the doctors were artists.
322 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO, Mrs. Tager, what you mean is that every one you re<'eived
from an ad like this you would send out an inquiry to determine
whether he was a doctor or a lawyer ?
Mrs. Tager. No; to determine his age. To determine his age, what
he was interested in, whether it was film, slides, or black and whites.
Mr. BoBO. For what reason would you like to determine the age of
the customers ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I only had one purpose at that time. I felt that
if I was ever in trouble and I was accused of selling to minors, these
coupons that I kept with the ages of the different individuals, I always
felt that they would be more or less in my favor. In other words, that
I was trying to keep children out of my files.
Mr. BoBO. That was in the mailing lists in which you bought. Sup-
pose a child had sent — this was a letter that you sent out ; this wasn't
a magazine ad ; would that be correct ?
Mrs. Tager. Xo; this is not one of mine, unless this was sent out
after I retired from the business. That is quite possible.
Mr. BoBO. Did any of your ads ever suggest such as this : You
must have Georgia in the nude, Georgia has been named the show-
girl of the year because she has so much to show and she knows how
to show it. You will sit and sigh over her beautiful figure and what
she does with it. She is your open door to a girl's private life.
Mrs. Tager. No; I am afraid my advertising wasn't quite that
strong.
Mr. BoBO. Well, most of the advertising that you see in this par-
ticular business, that would give the idea that these are just not
straight nude scenes ?
Mrs. Tager. That is true. That is very true.
Mr. BoBO. And for a sexually inf^uisitive youngster of 12 or 10 ■
Mrs. Tager. Well, he would really think he was getting something,
Mr. BoBO. Yes, ma'am. This is another copy of a letter. Is that
one of the particular types of mailing advertising which you sent out?
Mrs. Tager. No. I am afraid this is another one that was sent out
after I left the business.
Mr. BoBO. Are you acquainted
]Mrs. Tager. Although I have seen this before.
Mr. BoBO. Are you acquainted with the Mr. Boss to whom these
orders are addressed to ?
]\Irs. Tager. Yes. He was associated with my husband and I.
Mr. BoBO. What is Mr. Ross' full name ?
Mrs. Tager. I believe his true name is Rosenblatt, Rubin Rosenblatt.
We know him under the name of Roy J. Ross.
Chairman Kefauaer. Get that spelled.
Mr. BoBO. Rubin, R-u-b-i-n ?
Mrs. Tager. I believe that is his name.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell Rosenblatt ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I imagine R-o-s-e-n-b-l-a-t-t,
Mr, BoBO. And you knew him as what ?
Mrs. Tager. Roy J. Ross.
Mr. BoBO. ~\^^iere did Mr. Ross reside ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, that I could not tell you right now. I don't —
the last address I had Avas 4100 Goodland Avenue.
Mr. BoBO. What was that street again ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 323
iSIrs. Tager. 4100 Goodland, G-o-o-d-l-a-n-d, Avenue in North
Hollywood ; but whether he is still there or not I wouldn't know.
Mr. BoBO. The original mailiuo-s, in receiving the orders and so
forth from the various magazines in which your ad appeared, there
AAas no eft'ort upon your part to determine the age or the type of
person that was getting the material ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes ; there was.
Mr. BoBO. If I seut in an order to you from one of these magazines
and enclosed my $10
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Would I get a letter of inquiry back as to my age, or
would I get the strip photos or whatever other merchandise you had
to sell ?
Mrs. Tagek. Well, no. When you place an ad in a magazine — of
couise, I am going by my own experiences ; what some of the others
do might be entirely diffei-ent. When an ad is placed in a magazine
and you, perhaps, answer the ad, you send me a dollar. Well, natu-
] ally, for that dollar you are not going to get nudes. You get four
pinup pictures. Your name is kept on file, and in order for me to
keep or try to keep children out of my files, I W'Ould send them a letter
of inquiry as to their age, and I would get that letter of inquiry back
f j'om them before I would attempt to send them any of these adver-
tising pieces for nudes.
Mr. BoBO. The original was just a come-on?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
!Mr. BoBO. And actually it was more or less a fraudulent ad be-
cause the person got not what he thought he was asking for?
Mrs. Tager. Well, that is very true.
Mr. BoBO. Because the material which was sent to him did not meet
the description
]Mrs. Tager. But if you had sent it through the mail with a descrip-
tion, you would have been closed by the Post Office Department, too;
so you had it one way or the other.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, when you would finally send the real
thing, the nudes, did you send those through the mail ?
Mrs, Tager. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauvi':r. You said that you tried to keep the age of
children or secure it for a while. Did you give up that effort?
Mrs. Tager. I did because I found, oh, several would come back
to me in a handwriting that jou could more or less tell that it wasn't
a grownup's handwriting, and on the coupon the age might be marked
as 26 or 30 ; so I finally felt that — I mean, it was kind of a useless cause,
so I dropped it.
Chairman Kefaitver. From that time on you would mail back to
anvone who wrote in without inquiring whether they were kids or
adiihs?
Mrs. Tager. Well, of course, the girls that opened the mail were
instructed to watch out for handwriting that did look juvenile; but,
as T say, if they were 17 or 18 years old, he is still a juvenile, but
yet you could not determine from his handwriting his age.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, if it looked like juvenile handwriting,
would the dollar be sent back to him ?
Mrs. Tager. It would be sent back to him.
Chairman Kefai-ver. What explanation would you make?
324 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mrs. Tager. ''Out of business."
Senator Kefauver. All right. Go ahead, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. You say you made a survey as to the number of juveniles
that you would receive mail from. Did you receive mail from quite
a number of people of the young age ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, now, of course, as I say, I am judging by tlie
handwriting.
Mr. Bobo. You actually
Mrs. Tager. That would accompany the orders. There were quite
a few. There were quite a few.
Mr. BoBO. What would be the size of the mailing which you would
send out? What was the size of the business you did in the mail-
order business? If you were attem])ting to send out any mailing
at one time, what would be the number of mailings that you would
make ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, now, that could vary anywhere from 20,000
pieces up to a couple of hundred thousand : even more.
Chairman Kefauver. And what is the biggest one you ever sent
out?
Mrs. Tager. Well, you see, I believe the biggest ,mailings from the
business I was associated with, oh, I believe they were sending maybe
a quarter of a million pieces a month.
Chairman Kefauver. A quarter of a million a month. Do you have
a sample of the kind of things that were sent?
Mr. BoBO. Would this be a representative sample of the copy
matter ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Let those be made exhibits so we can have
an idea what they were.
(The samples referred to were marked "Exhibit No. SS," and are
on file with the subcommittee.)
Chairman Kefauver. How would they be sent, by postal permit
or did you put stamps on each one ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, to begin with we were using the coil stamps,
and then we went into the Pitney-Bowes machine with the permit.
Chairman KEFAU^T.R. First-class mail ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. All first-class mail ^
Mrs. Tager. Yes, all first-class.
Chairman Kefau^^r. You had just one of these machines that
printed the permit on it?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman KEFAU^•ER. Were they mailed here — of course, you did
business in a lot of places. Some were mailed here — you will go
into that, Mr. Bobo?
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. All right. I see.
Mr. BoBO. "V\^iat would be the average return from a mailing, per-
centage return on the mailing that you would make?
Mrs. Tager. Well now, that, too, is a little difficult to answer in
this respect : It would depend entirely on the mailing list that it was
sent out on. On one mailing list you might expect 10 or 12 percent
returns. Another mailing list you may get 4 or 5 percent returns.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
325
Mr BoBO. On the business ^-liicli you did m sending out and the
percentage of returns, what would be your figure as to the gross
annual business which you did in a year's tune lor the year lJo2
or the last year in which
C'hairman Kefauver. Say the peak year.
Mr BoBO. The biggest vear that you had, your peak year.
Mrs T\GER. Well, of course, the peak came actually— actually the
peak to this business came right after I walked out on the business
and my husband and Mr. Ross, through my instructions and through
•mother i^arty's instructions, went all out; and I beheve it is on record
in the bank, something like $750,000 in a period of a very few months.
Mr. Bubo. That is your husband and Mr. Ross ^
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. And the third party was whom >.
Mrs TvGER. Well, I just say on the advice of a third party.
Mr. "Bob(x Who was this third party i That was advice to you from
a third party?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. Yes. .
Mr Bobo. Well then, the biggest peak year m which you were
connected with the business, what was the largest amount of deposits
which you made in that year ; your gross business^( , ..^ ^ .
]^Irs." Ta(;er. Well, oH'hand that would be a little difficult to pm
down right to a ligure. .
Chairman Kefau\^er. Well, just approximately; your best remem-
Mr. BoBO. Is it true that you did approximately $3,000-a-day busi-
ness ^ 1 • •
Mrs. Tager. During this peak, yes. As I say, we were taking m
from three to four thousand dollars a day in the mails.
Mr. BoBO. That w^as on strip photos and movie films ?
Mrs. Tager. That is right. ■
Chairman Kefauver. AV^hat was it, a million-dollar-a-year business,
you did, approximately that? , ^ ^i,-
Mrs. Tager. I would say so. Of course, as I say, the peak to this
came after I was out of it due to illness.
Mr. BoBO. Mrs. Tager, in this particular business you organized a
great number of companies under a great many different names, is that
correct ?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct. . i . ^^
Mr. BoBO. Would each one of these companies be set up and Have
an office and be licensed to do business ?
IVTrs Tager No sir.
Mr.BoBO. Actually would it just be a name for the purpose of
receiving mail?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct, for possibly one mailing.
Mr BoBO And the address to wdiich this mail would be sent, how did
you determine the spot to where the mail would be sent and addressed ?
Mrs Tager. Well, it would be— it is very easy to get a post office
box. There are many legitimate telephone answering services or
mail receiving services. There are many offices where you can rent
desk space very cheaply. So we just went from one to the other
until we finallv ran out of them.
Chairman Kefau\-er. I don't understand. Until you ran out ot
what?
326 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY ■
Mrs. Tager. Of addresses around here locally.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean you just used up all the addresses
you could find.
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. How many did you use in the course of your
business, do you know ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I imagine the figure would probably run possibly
200 in the course of a couple of years.
Chairman Kefau^^er. 200 different addresses. These companies
that you formed, were they corporate companies, were they required
to register under the California law ?
Mrs. Tager. No.
Chairman Kefauver. In other words, you just pick up — you had a
Stand-Out Co. Is that one of your companies ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. That was registered.
Chairman Kefauver. But most of them would just be names that
you would pick up and get a post office box and some kind of office
space and address ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, that is correct; but, you see, that address would
only be used for one mailing.
Chairman Kefal^'er. Used for one mailing, and then j'ou would get
your mail there and move on somewhere else?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct.
Chairman Kefaua^er. How long would it take to handle one mailing
when you did get one of these addresses ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, by the 10th day you have most of your returns
in from the day that your mail is mailed, so a mail address is good
for approximately 2 weeks. Then you have no more use for it.
Chairman Kefau\t;r. Then after you got your replies back, where
would you respond from ; the same address ?
Mrs.' Tager. Well, yes. On your orders going out to the individual
you would use the same address.
Chairman Kefaua^er. I know, but actually the orders were filled
from your central office somewhere, weren't they?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. You onlj^ use the mail address to get the
orders in and you took the orders to your central office for the ful-
filling of them?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Chairman Kefattver. Where was your central office?
IMrs. Tager. We had several. We were at 141 North La Brea ; we
were at 1400G Ventura Boulevard; we were — let me see. We had an-
other office on Ventura Boulevard, a large one. I can't think of the
number right now.
Chairman Kefau\ter. And those offices would be where you had the
supply of films and cards and all the mailing machinery ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauat:r. How many did you have working in those
central offices?
Mrs. Tager. Well, of course, gradually as we grew we kept adding
on help. I believe at the height of this operation there were close
to 50, 51, 52 ; in that vicinity ; of girls working for us outside, of outside
typists.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 327
Chairman Kefauvek. You mean you had that many people in the
office mailing out things and typing up, and then used a lot of outside
typists, too?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Wliere would you get the outside typists?
Mrs. Tager. Well, through any agency. I mean, women that will
type names in their homes, name lists, and things like that.
Chairman Kefauver. Excuse me, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. BoBO. So that we may clarify some of the profits that were
made in this particular business, Mrs.' Tager, would you say that these
prices were the approximate prices paid and the approximate prices
for which the material sold : That color slides cost you two and three-
quarters cents each in 100 lots, and they were sold for $3 for 6 slides ?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct.
Mr. BoBo. And that 50 feet of black and white 8-millimeter film
cost 65 cents, which you sold for $4 ?
Mrs, TxIger. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. And 100 feet of 16-millimeter film cost you $1.65 and sold
for $7?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Mr. BoBO. And color fihii with ^ound sold for as much as $70 ?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. What would that sound be?
Mrs. Tager. Music.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean nuisic to accompany the dancing or
whatever they were doing ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. And the volume of your business reached such a great
extent at its peak, that the post office in — what is that, in Encino,
Calif. — was raised from a fourth-class post office to a second-class post
office?
Mrs. Tager. That is true.
]\Ir. Bobo. Do you have any idea as to the amount of money spent
for stamps by you in your organization in a year's time in the peak
year ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, of course, 1 don't have any records or anvthing
with me. I mean
Mr. BoBO. Just approximately.
Mrs. Tager. Well, there were many thousands of dollars. I mean,
I really and truly couldn't give you an approximation on that.
Mr. Bono. And the reason, Mrs. Tager, for the forming of all these
companies and changing your address was so that you might avoid
the unlawful orders and stop orders that the Post Office Department
put out against you ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes and no. Using all the different addresses had a
different purpose, too. Naturally,\i customer, when he buys materia]
from you if it is not quite as risque as what he expects, he is not going
to be a repeat buyer. Our purpose in using many fictitious names was
for the purpose, more or less, to keep that customer buying.
Mr. BoBo. But if the post office
Chairman Kefauver. Well, let's pursue that a minute. In other
words, under one name, under one mailing address you Avould oet a
lot of names, and then you would sell them their orders, and you \v(Kdd
use those same addresses with another name, maybe with a little dif-
32S JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
f erent approach, to secure orders from the same people ; they thinking
that it was another company?
Mrs. Tager. It is another company, that is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. And you had a lot of repeat buyers, I suppose ^
Mrs. Tager. Oh, yes, many, .
Chairman Kefauver. How large a territory did your mailing list
^^Mrs. Tager. It was nationwide. Worldwide in fact. .
Chairman Kefauver. You mean you got orders from all states m
the Nation ?
Mrs. Tager. All over the world. , , , ^^ n a..
Chairman Kefauver. All over the world? lou mean Canada,
Mexico ?
:Mrs. Tager. Even Ceylon. , i • ^
Chairman Kefaumsr. Even Ceylon. Wherever the mazame went,
why, you would get orders back ?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct. . .
Chairman Kefauver. Could you give us any estimate, say, m a peak
vear, how many orders you had? ,•«. i^ rr.!
Mrs. Tager. Well, that, too, would be very difficult. They ran
way up into the , ^ , i o
Chairman Kefauver. Hundreds of thousands (
Mi-s. Tager. Well, yes, I imagine they would, with all the increase
from the ditf erent magazines; yes i . i ^ +1,.
Chairman Kefauver. Hundreds of thousands of orders from the
world over. Did you have special rates for orders from Ceylon and
Canada? . , . , i? i i j. ^-e
Mrs Tager. Well, no. No. I received much, oh, an awful lot ot
forei<m money; an awful lot of foreign money. Of course, much of
it wasn't worth the paper it is written on. I mean, as far as the ex-
change, they would send the proper amount, but I would send the
merchandise anyway. . , , ^ ,. • u ^ ,.a
Chaiman Kefauver. You received a lot of foreign money back and
you would send the merchandise anyway and get what you could out
of the foreign money ?
IVTrs Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauw^r. Where did you bank the foreign money?
Mrs. Tager. I didirt. I kept it as souvenirs.
Chairman KEFAU\a:R. Do you still have a lot of it ?
Mrs Tager. No. My son has a collection, and I have given it to
several of this boy friends to start a collection with. It is pretty well
scattered.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, :Mr. Bobo.
Mr Bono. Then if the post office should happen to get out an un-
lawful order on one of the businesses which you had, it would m no
way affect your main operation ? , -, n ^ ^i
Mrs Tager. Well, I believe what you mean is not the unlawful, the
fictitious, don't you? There is quite a difference there on that. The
unlawful wouUrpertain to a man in business using his correct name;
but a fictitious order i- •
Mr. BoBO. A fictitious order, a stop order to keep you from using
that mailing address?
Mrs. Taber. Yes. That was no trouble.
Mr. BoBO. That wouldn't interrupt your business at all i
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 329
Mrs. Tager. No.
Mr. BoBO. And you would move on and chiinge to iinother one and
still continue doino; business under all the other names ^
^Irs. Tager. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. The Post Office Department made quite an effort to
crack down on your business, as well as many of the other businesses
of a sinnlar nature^
Mrs. Tager. That is true.
Mr. BoBO. You had a great deal of trouble receiving all the mail
that you were getting to answer to your advertisements?
Mrs. Tager, Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. Did you find it necessary or were you ever a part of any
type of organization where people in this particular business organ-
ized to evade the Post Office Department officials?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes. I belonged to an organization that many
of the operators in this business joined. We formed a group more
or less to pool our notes and try to stay in business.
Mr. BoBo. Do you have the names of any of the persons who joined
in this organization with you? Do you have the name of the organiza-
tion, first ? Did it go under a name ?
Mrs. Tagfj{. Yes; it did. It was all initials. In fact, I couldn't
even pronounce it.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know the address of that organization?
]Mrs. Tager. Well, we met at several places. There was no perm-
anent address.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, give us the best — get the best name
you can.
Mr. BoBO. All right.
Mi-s. Tager. We would have our meetings at different places.
Mr. BoBc^ Well, the initials? If you can't pronounce it, could
you give us a close description of what the name might be?
Mrs. Tager. No; offhand I can't. I believe it was A. S. C. A.
something .
jVIr. BoBO. Was it the Associated Photographers of Strippers and
Nudes ?
]Mrs. Tager. Well, that sounds — that could be. That could be.
Chairman Kefauver. Say that again.
Mr. BoBO. The Associated Photographers of Strippers and Nudes.
Mrs. Tager. That could be.
Mr. BoBO. It was not listed under a name, but under the letters
of it.
Mrs. Tager. Yes. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Who were some of the members of this particular organ-
ization?
Mrs. Tagers. Well, as I say, there were several. Myself, Mr. Tager,
Mr. Ross, Ann Walker.
Mr. BoBO. Do yon know where Mrs, Walker lives ?
Mrs. Tager, At present, no,
Mr, BoBO, Is she in Los Angeles?
Mrs, Tager, That I couldn't tell you, I haven't been in conta.t —
in contact with any of these people in appi'oximately 2 years,
Mr, BoBO, Give us some of the other names,
Mrs. Tager. Well, there was Roy Howard.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know where he was living at the time?
330 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefaltv-er. I didn't understand the name,
Mrs. Tager. Roy Howard.
Chairman Kefauver. Where is he now?
Mrs. Tager. That I couldn't tell you.
Chairman Kefauver. In Mexico ?
Mrs. Tager. No; I understand he is back in town here somewhere,
but I have not seem him.
Clayton W. Kirby.
Mr. BoBO. Is that K-i-r-b-y ?
Mrs. Tagers. That is right.
Mr. BoBo. Where does he live?
Mrs. Tager. I imagine he is still over at Cinema Enterprises. That
is on Hyperion.
Bill Door.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know where Mr. Bill Door is at the present time ?
Mrs. Tager. I believe he is in the courtroom.
Mr. BoBo. He is here. He lives in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Tager. I couldn't tell you just where he lives.
Mr. BoBO. Well, is Mr. Door here ?
Mrs. Tager. I believe he is in the courtroom. I saw him.
Chairman Kefauver. He is here under subpena, I believe.
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Well now, there was Evan and Virginia Wilson.
Mr. BoBO. What was that first name ?
Mrs. Tager. Evan, E-v-a-n.
Mr. Bono. Do you know where they are?
Mrs. Tager. I believe Virginia is still in the San Fernando Valley.
Mr. BoBo. Do you know Russ Racine ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes ; Russ Racine.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell his name?
Mrs. Tager. R-a-c-i-n-e.
Mr. Bono. Russ Racine?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBo. Is he still in this area ?
Mrs. Tager. I don't believe so. I believe he is up around the San
Francisco area.
]Mr. Bono. Do you know Tom Cooper ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBo. Was he a member of this association?
JNIrs. Tager, I believe — I believe he went to meetings, but the one
night that he was there I wasn't there.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Glied that might have been connected
with this business?
Mrs. Tager. Felix Glied?
Mr. Bono. Felix Glied.
]Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell that name, please ?
Mrs. Tager. G-1-i-e-d, isn't it? i-e-d or e-a-d, I think it is i-e-d.
Mr, BoBO. G-1-i-e-d ?
Mrs. Tager. I think so.
Mr. BoBO. Is he still in this area?
IMrs. Tager. I believe so.
Mr. BoBO. Approximately how many members altogether did this
association have ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 331
Mrs. Tager. Oh, I would say roughly maybe 20, because there were
many that would have liked to have gotten into it, but we didn't want
them in the organization,
Mr. I3oBO. Well, there were approximately 20 in this association.
Do you know from your association with this business how many
people there are in this particular business, or were at the time that you
were in it in this particular area'^
Mrs. Tager. Well, the figure is high. I believe when I was operat-
ing there must have been well over 200, at least 250 operators.
Mr. BoBO. That is all that you had knowledge of. Is that over the
country or in California?
Mrs. Tager. No. In the Los Angeles area alone.
Mr. Bono. Do you have any idea as to the estimate of the number of
people who might have been engaged in this business over the country ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I imagine the figure is quite high because Los
Angeles, I believe, is the main port for all this material. I think New
York runs a close second. You have got many operators scattered
through the Midwest. I would imagine several hundred operators.
Mr. BoBO. Several hundred. You are speaking of in this business,
the business not of strip photos, but nude photographs and nude
motion-picture films ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. The purpose of this organization which the members got
together and formed was what, Mrs. Tager ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, to pool our notes and more or less try to keep
each other in business in the respect that when one person would be
closed with a particular order from the Post Office Department, we
planned on putting our heads together to see if we could come up to a
solution to stay in business.
^Ir. BoBO. Did you come up with a solution to stay in business as a
result of this organization ?
Mrs. Tager. Wei 1, yes and no. There were several things we learned
in order to keep in business.
Mr. BoBo. What were some of these things, Mrs. Tager ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, keeping the post-office inspectors out of your files
was one of them.
Mr. BoBO. How did you manage that ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I think I was the one that stumbled onto that.
I received two orders one day from separate parts of the country, the
same handwriting on the signature ; that is, the letter was typewritten
on a standard size typewriter sheet of paper, but it had been torn in
two. When I put the two pieces together they fit perfectly. The
typewriter made the same mistakes. So that is what put me onto the
code of how they had gotten into my files.
Mr. BoBO. In other words, mail that came in to you, you examined
it very carefully?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir, until we grew to the extent that I couldn't do
that; but this was in the beginning.
Mr. BoBO. Some of the other methods which you arrived at from
this organization to avoid the post office inspectors and to avoid the
type of prosecution were what, Mrs. Tager?
Mrs. Tager. Well, there were many things we learned. Not to drop
all the mail in one particular box or one particular post office sta-
65263—55 22
332 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
tioii, feeling that when a lot of mail came in it caused suspicion. If
the mail was scattered it wasn't so apt to cause suspicion. I mean,
there are many little things like that that were important to us to stay
in business.
Mr. BoBO. Well, supose one of the members of the organization
got into difficulty with either the Post Office Department or other
police officials. Was there any eliort made for group participation in
his defense?
Mrs. Tager. Well, originally when the organization was formed,
we planned on hiring an attorney to re]5resent us if any one of us
needed help. We Avould just pay a certain amount of dues.
Mr. BoBO. What were the dues to the organization?
Mrs. Tager. T believe it was $'25 entrance fee and then I think it was
agreed on $10 a month ; but that agreement was made before we had
contacted an attorney ; in other words, not knowing what the retainer
w^as he would want. Now, in the organization there was one stipula-
tion made, however, that if anyone in our group was picked up for
pornographic pictures, they could expect no aid from the organiza-
tion; because the group at this particular time in the organization
were handling just straight nudes.
Mr. BoBo. The group that you were associated with was handling
noiiC of the lewd and lascivious, really obscene perverted type of ma-
terial?
Mrs. Tager. Xo. We were handling all more or less the same
thing. That is why, as I say, there were several that would have liked
to have gotten into the organization and we just didn't want them in
with us.
Chairman Keiwuver. Mrs. Tagei', you said at that time. Did the
organization deteriorate as time went on?
Mrs. Ta(}er. Yes; it was very short-lived; very short-lived.
Chairman Kefauver. Pornogra])hers did get into the organization ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes; I believe a coui)le did.
Mr. BoBO. Did your dues increase at a later time? You said origi-
nally it was $25 and $10 a month. What was the final arrangement?
Mrs. Taoer. Well, we made no final arrangement. I mean, the
organization, we did not make arrangements with an attorney that
we expected to have represent us as a group, and the organization
just died.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever hire an attorney to represent the organiza-
tion or to defend any of the members in any respect?
Mrs. Tager. We approached attorneys to represent us, but we did
not have one attorney to represent the whole group.
Mr. BoBO. Did any attorneys ever set as a fee, for maybe the reason
you did not hire them, a certain percentage of the gross business of
the organization ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. They would represent you and for the organization for
a certain percentage?
Mrs. Tager. No, not as a group. As an individual, yes, but not
as a group.
Mr. BoBO. As an individual, that was you in busines, you and Mr.
Tager and Mr. Ross in business, that you had difficulty with the Post
Office Department? What was the reason, Mrs. Tager, for you
leaving this particular business ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 333
Mrs. Tager. Well, I divorced Mr. Tager.
Mr. BoBO. Is he still in the business?
:Mrs. Tager. As far as I have been told, yes.
Mr. BoBO. Is he still in busmess with Mr. Eoss?
Mrs. Tager. Well now, that is a difficult question. I do not believe
so. I do not believe so. i • i
Mr. BoBO. AVlien was the last time that you were connected with
the business that you got into difficulty with the post office, Mrs.
Ta<*"er.
Mrs. Tager. Well, when I was connected with this business I be-
lieve it was back in 1951 when I had a tremendous mailing going out
of Las Vegas, Tucson, and Phoenix.
Mr. BoBO. You Avent out on business to Las \egas, Tucson, and
Phoenix ? ■ ^ -, -,
Mrs. Tager. Yes. I had a mailing that went out witli addresses
bearing Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Tucson.
Mr. BoBO. Whom did you make this trip with?
Mrs. Tager. Well, after I had difficuUy with the Post Office De-
]^artment, naturally, I tried to get the mail released. My mail was
being — the replies were being held up in these various post offices, so
I made this trip with my attorney.
Mr BoBO. What was the purpose of this, to make an all-out mail-
ing to get the most out of the business that you could ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, no. No. No. The purpose was that I thought
that there were too many people getting mail from operators in Cali-
fornia at the time, and I thought maybe using another State for an
address might revive some of the customers that I had lost.
Mrs. BoBo. Well, what ha])pened when you went out to make
your mailings in Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Tucson, did you get into
further difficulty ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes. After the mail was out and the orders had
come in, I received word from the Post Office Department that I was
closed on a fictitious order. Well, at the time I had felt that there
was approximately $40,000 tied up in those three mailings, so natu-
rally I was going to fight for it. I was told to go to Las Vegas, Phoe-
nix, and Tucson, identify myself and my mail would be released.
Well, that is not the case.
Mr. BoBO. By whom were you told if you would go to Las Vegas,
Phoenix, and Tucson, and identify yourself your mail would be re-
leased ?
Mrs. Tager. By the letter from the Post Office Department in
Washington.
Mr. BoBO. Was it a signed letter?
Mrs. Tager. A form letter that they sent out.
Mr. BoBO. Yes.
Mrs. Tager. Well, naturally, I went to these post offices with my
attorney, but then, after I identified myself, they said, "You still can't
have the mail."
So we tried to fight further for it. In fact, I believe we made—
Avell, it was another trip down there before they would release it to
me, because, of course, that had to come out of Washington.
Mr. BoBO. What further fight did you make for this mail, Mrs.
Tacer, to have it released?
334 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mrs. Tager. Well, I had identified myself. I mean, even though
I was closed on a fictitious order, I was not fictitious, I was not iising
a fictitious name in order to hide my identity. I mean, that was not
the intent.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever in the entire matter receive any information
or advice that you should get a cease and desist order so that you
would have thereby a solution to your troubles ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. By whom, from Avhom did this advice come?
Mrs. Tager. Well, I believe that his citing the cease and desist did
have quite a big bearing on this mail released.
Mr. BoBO. You believe what, Mrs. Tager ?
INIrs. Tager. I believe that by my signing this cease and desist order
it had quite a great bearing on the Post Office Department releasing
this mail that was tied up.
Mr. BoBO. Well, Mrs. Tager
Mrs. Tager. You see, at the time
Mr. BoBO. Who was the attorney that represented you in receiving
this cease and desist order ?
Mrs. Tager, Stanley Caidin.
Mr. BoBO. Is he here in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. I believe he is in the courtroom here.
Mr. Bono. Did you have an agreement with him in representing
you in this matter?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. What was the agreement which you had with him ^
Mrs. Tager. Well, if he could get the mail released I was to pay
him 25 percent of my gross take.
Mr. BoBO. Xow, on the mail that you had tied up ?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Mr. BoBO. Was your mail released to 3^ou ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Did the amount of the 25 percent of the mail that was
released to you — was that in the sum of $1,329.95, represented by this
check ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir. Yes, sir ; that is true.
Mr. BoBO. Is that the check with which you paid Mr. Caidin for
his 25 percent?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. It has also marked in the lower right corner "25%"?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Mr. BoBO. And that is representative of that?
Mrs. Tager. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. That will be marked as an exhibit ; exhibit 34.
Mr. Bono. Exhibit 34.
(The check was marked "Exhibit No. 34," and appears on p. 342.)
Chairman Kefauver. Is that the total payment, or is that on just
one of the
Mrs. Tager. That was just on this mailing that was made in Las
Vegas, Phoenix, and Tucson.
Chairman Kefauver. Were there others held up that he helped you
get out ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 335
Mrs. Tager. Well, not — no. Now, he naturally helped Mr. Tager
■and Mr. Koss after I was out of this, but that is the one he helped
me on.
Chairman KEFAU^^R. Did he go with you to Las Vegas?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman KE^AU^^R. Phoenix, and Tucson?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you get it released at all places?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefatjv^er. How did 3^ou get the mail back here ?
Mrs. Tager. In suitcases.
Chairman Kefauver. By plane?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. You just picked up, you didn't examine it
there, you brought it right back to California?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you have some trouble with it in Las
Yegas ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes. Do you mean in the respect of who would
have possession of it because of this 25 percent? Yes, Mr. Caidin
didn't feel that he could trust me in a room overnight with this mail,
even though the mail was mine ; so we had quite a discussion over who
would keep the key and who would keep the mail. In fact, he even
went so far as to tie the suitcases up with rope with special knots, that
if I had opened them, he would know about them. So the mail was
being opened at my home. Out of pure meanness I cut all the ropes olf
of it to give him something to think about.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you get that difficulty resolved?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman KEFAU^^ER. When you opened it at home — you opened it
at your home, you say ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. ^Vlio was there when you opened it?
Mrs. Tager. Well, there was Mr. Caidin, Mr. Cummins, Oscar Com-
mins, Daniel Bloomgarden, Mr. Ross, Mr. Tager, and myself.
Chairman Kefauver. Who are these men that you have talked
about ?
Mrs. Tager. At that time they were connected with Mr. Caidin.
The firm was Caidin, Cummins & Bloomgarden.
Chairman Kefaum^.r. What happened when the mail was opened,
did you divide up the mail ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, that was quite a hectic day. Mr. Caidin natu-
rally wanted his share right then and there. Of course, I had to ex-
plain that that mail had been held up for several months. Naturally,
many of the checks that came in that mail — the payment had been
stopped on them. Many of the money orders were outdated, they
were old, so that I wouldn't know actually the total of that mailing
for some time, until these checks and money orders had cleared.
Chairman Kefauver. What was the total amount as of that day in
the checks and the money orders?
]Mrs. Tager. Well, that is kind of hard. I wish I had brought some
of these records with me.
Chairman Kefauver. Was it around
Mrs. Tager. I know we took a terrible loss on it.
336 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. Was it around $26,000^
Mrs. Tager. Somewhere in that vicinity, I would say.
Chairman KErAU\'ER. Then you found that a lot of checks and mail
orders had been stopped on you?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Chairman Kefai \tr. So that after the amounts stopped and you
got to the net, then this check represents 25 percent of the net?
Mrs. Tager. TAventy-five percent of what we cleared.
Chairman Kefauver. All right. While we have a pause, you were
talking about putting mail in different post offices. As a matter of
fact, you would load up your car and just go from town to town up
and down the coast here?
Mrs. Tager. That is true.
Chairman Kefauver. And put mail in all the post offices ?
Mrs. Tager. That is true.
Chairman Kefauver. Spread it out. Did you go to Arizona, Ne-
vada several times with mailings?
Mrs. Tager. No. Just once that I went to Arizona. The first time
to employ the services of these people running these mail addresses.
Then I came back, prepared the mailing, and Mr. Tager and Mr. Ross
took it to Arizona and Las Vegas and mailed it.
Chairman Kefauat;r. Did Mr. Caidin just represent the whole
group, or did he have an independent arrangement with Mr. Ross and
your husband aside from his arrangement with you?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes. The arrangement, as I say — now, this 25
percent to have this mail released for me, now, Mr. Caidin was to keep
^Ir. Ross and Mr. Tager in business for a percentage of their busi-
ness.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know what that arrangement was?
Mrs. Tager. I believe 10 percent.
Chairnum Kefauver. That Avas separate and apart from this check ?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes. You see, after his episode took place it
wasn't too long after that that I had many trips in and out of hos-
pitals. Even though I knew what was going on in the business, I was
]iot active in it.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know how nuich this second arrange-
ment paid Mr. Caidin about a month?
]\Irs. Tager. Well, you know, there are many things that a person
knows, but you can't really prove.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, if you don't know
Mrs. Tager. This is one of these things.
Chairman Kefauver. If j^ou don't know, don't say. If you don't
know, why, then don't say.
Mrs. Tager. I know thei'e has been cash and checks. I would say
Mr. Caidin was drawing $1,500 or better a month.
Chairman Kefauver. All right.
Mr. BoBo. Did you keep two sets of books in your operation, Mrs.
Tager, Avhen you were operating?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BoBO. What was the purpose of keeping two sets of books?
Mrs. Tager. Well, when this approach was made to keej) us in
business for a percentage, you know no one can stay in business and
give someone 10 percent of their gross, especially where it is a part-
nership. When this percentage was arranged with Mr. Caidin, I spoke
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 337
it over with Mr. Tager and I advised 2 sets of books, 1 for Mr.
Caidin's benefit, because I felt if Mr. Caidin received $1,500 a month
or better, lie would be very satisfied, without receivin<i actually 10 per-
cent of the gross.
Mr. BoBO. Did you show the same set of books to the Internal Rev-
enue Bureau?
Mrs. Tagek. No. The Internal Revenue Bureau had the proper
books. This other set, as I say, was set up for Mr. Caidin's benefit
only, and it was done at the proper time, because Mr. Caidin sent his
auditors downi to audit the books to make sure he was getting his 10
])ercent.
(^hairman Kefauvek. Which set of books did they audit?
Mrs. Tager. The ones put up for their benefit.
Chairman Kefauvek. They didn't audit the other books?
Mrs. Tager. No.
Chairman Kefauvek. What would be the difference in the income on
the two sets of books, about? I mean, would one be twice as much
income as the other one?
Mrs. Tager. Well, yes; possibly more. But, as I say, to give some-
one 10 percent of a gross business, that is quite a lot. It can't be done.
Chairman Kefauvek. Go ahead, Mr. Bobo.
Who was ])resident of this association you have been talking about?
Mrs. Tager. Of the organization?
Chairman Kefauvek. Of the organization.
Mrs. Tager. Well, actually, I believe Merle Kennel was the presi-
dent of it. Ann Walker was the treasurer-secretary.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you have an office in it?
Mrs. Tager. No; I did not.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever receive any type of mailing lists from Mr.
Caidin in his connection with the business? Did he ever present to
you any mailing list of any sort ?
Mr. JBoBo. What type of mailing list did you receive from him ?
Mrs. Tager. AVell, it was supposedly a list that is kept by inspectors,
of buyers of nude pictures, for their own benefit.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know what the origin of this particular list was?
Mrs. Tagek. Well, as I say, it came out of Washington.
Mr. BoBo. Is just came — you don't know
Mrs. Tager. No.
Mr. Bobo. Definitely the origin of this?
Mrs. Tager. That is what I w^as led to believe, anyway.
Mrs. BoBO. Mrs. Tager, how many times have you been in difficulty
with the law ?
Mrs. Tager. Once.
Mr. BoBO. Where was that ?
Mrs. Tager. That was back in Rhode Island.
Mr. BoBo. Was it in connection with this business?
Mrs. Tager. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Bono. What w^ere the circumstances surrounding that?
Mrs. Tager. Last September I was accused of mailing one obscene
picture through the mails on or about the 18th of August. I was
arrested. My bail was set at $2,000. Then four more counts were
added to the' original one, which that charge made up a count. In
other words, the names of four ])eople who I am supposed to have
mailed pictures to were each considered a count. I did not do this
338 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
thing, but, of course, that is not neither here nor there right now;
but I know who did. This particuhir person I sold some mailing lists
to, because I needed the money at the time. In fact, I did some typing
for him in my home.
Mr. BoBO. Who is the person to whom you sold your mailing list?
Mrs. Tager. Calvin Sugarman.
Mr. BoBO. How do you spell it ?
Mrs. Tager. S-u-g-a-r-m-a-n.
. Mr. BoBO. Where does he reside ?
Mrs. Tager. In Providence, R. I.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have his address there?
Mrs. Tager. On Hope Street.
Mr. BoBo. H-o-p-e.
Mrs. Tager. Hope.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever engage in the business in Rhode Island ?
Mrs. Tager. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. BoBO. Did you sell the mailing list which you had to any persons
in any other part of the country ?
Mrs. Tager. Not since I have been out of the business ; no.
Mr. BoBO. Is that the only mailing list you sold within recent times ?
Mrs. Tager. Oh, yes. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever, while you were in California connected with
this business — you had numerous fictitious orders against 3^ou and
your business?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. That is the only difficulty you have had with any of the
law-enforcement agencies or the courts on the coast?
Mrs. Tager. That is right.
Mr. BoBO. Are you on probation now ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, sir; I am. I had to plead guilty to this charge,
otherwise I would be in jail 5 months ; and as it stands, circumstantial
evidence plus the fact there is — well, Calvin Sugarman, his family
is quite influential. I was told before I went back to Rhode Island
that I wouldn't stand a chance if I brought him in to it, because his
family is not, if they can prevent it, going to have his name in the
headlines.
Mr. BoBO. You are not engaged in this business in any way at the
present time?
Mrs. Tager. No, sir. I have not been since 1951.
Mr. BoBO. And Mr. Ross or Mr. Tager, your husband, and his
partner, have they ever been in any difficulty with the authorities,
even been charged with anything ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes ; they have had many charges, but I think — in fact,
they have been arrested a few times, but as far as I know Mr. Tager
has only paid a $600 fine. Mr. Ross did serve a term, a short term
for bribery.
Mr. BoBO. The $600 fine was involved in a case involving this type
of material, or pornographic material ?
Mrs. Tager. Yes, yes — no, this type of material.
Mr. BoBO. Has he ever served any time? ]Mr. Tager has never
served any time ?
Mrs. Tager. Not that I know of.
Chairman Kefatjver. Well, I believe that is all now, Mrs. Tager.
Some matters that we might want to ask you about further might
come up, so you stay around, will you ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 339
Mrs. Tager. Yes.
Chairman Kefau^t:r. We will have a 10-minute recess at this time.
(Short recess taken.)
Chairman Kefauver. The subcommittee will come to order.
Expressing my thanks to some of you who have helped us so much
this morning, I want to thank and express our appreciation for the
help of the Los Angeles district attorney's office, Mr, Roll, and others
of his staff. Also the United States attorney and his staff, Mr.
AVaters, and Mr. Billings, and many others. We are going to try to
hear as many witnesses as possible today. Mrs. Tager and others
IDOssibly will mention other names. We don't w-ant to do anyone an
injustice. If anyone's name has been mentioned and they feel that
they have not been correctly presented or if they have some statement
they want to make, an explanation or a chance to be heard, if they will
let the staff of the subcommittee know, we will see that they have a
chance of being heard immediately, because we don't want any charges
to go out without any explanation that anyone wants to make in
connection with them.
Mr. Stanley Caidin's name has been mentioned. He is a member
of the bar of Los Angeles and California. He is here and has asked
to be heard next.
Mr. Caidin, would you come around, sir ? Just come up here, jNIr.
Caidin, and have a seat.
Mr. Caidin. Well, in view
Senator Kefauver. Well, if you-
Mr. Caidin. Can I request not to be photographed? I guess not.
Do I have that right ?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, I don't know, Mr. Caidin.
Mr. Caidin. Well, it doesn't matter. I am photographed.
Chairman Kefauver. Will you hold up your hand, sir, and be sworn.
(Mr. Caidin was sworn.)
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Bobo, will you take over.
TESTIMONY OF STANLEY R. CAIDIN, ATTORNEY AT LAW,
BEVERLY HILLS, CALIF.
Mr. BoBO. State your name and your address, and your occupation
for the record.
Mr. Caidin. My name is Stanley R. Caidin. My business address
is 9441 Wilshire Boulevard in Beverly Llills. My home address is
10383 Rochester Avenue in west Los Angeles.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Caidin, you stated you wanted to reply to some of
the things which Mrs. Tager has said.
Mr. Caidin. Well, of course
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you just tell all about it, Mr. Caidin.
INIake any statements you want to make.
Mr. Caidin. I was, of course, quite shocked, sitting back there, to
hear the nature and the type of accusations made by Mrs. Tager; and
my primary purposes, actually, is not to answer point by point the
testimony of Mrs. Tager, because to do that would be to dignify it with
a certain amount of credibility. There is — there are some things I
would like to say, since my name was mentioned in the manner it was.
Firstly, most of what Mrs. Tager said was false. There was a grain
or a salt of truth in a portion of her testimony, and in a considerable
340 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
portion of it from there on she went on a wild flight of imagination,
and mnch of her testimony is false.
I regret that I have to be in a position where, frankly, the accusa-
tions of a woman who has been convicted of a crime and who was here
for her own purposes, and having thrown about and made accusations
against people which will undoubtedly receive publicity is very dis-
tressing. I don't think, very frankly, if I may criticize the committee,
and do so respectfully, I would like to do so.
Chairman KErAuvp:R. Well, you can criticize the subconnnittee all
you want to.
Mr. Caidin. And I do as I do respectfully, and I do it as follows:
Of course, you are a Senator, Mr. Senator, and Mr. Bobo is a well-
known attorney himself, and I think all people who are accused at
this hearing — that an investigation should have been made as to the
charges, so that this publicity could have been avoided. If there was
an}' merit in the charges and the committee felt there was — but, the
effects of wild accusations made by a woman of that type are in effect
to intimidate attorneys and to prevent in large measure people of
this — engaged in business from the right to counsel for this reason :
Naturally, any attorney would not wish to be named as I have been
named and dishonored publicly. My primary concern is this, that if
this course of procedure is followed and other witnesses are permitted
to make accusations of this type, knowing that publicity will follow,
attorneys will be reluctant, and rightfully so, in going into court to
defend the rights of these people.
Now, I would like one thing clear, and that is this : Although this
has been designated as an investigation of pornographic material,
there is no showing — there has been no introduction of any of the
material to show it has been pornographic. Therefore, the public
has been led to believe that this is an investigation of so-called porno-
grapliic material. Yet the facts are that this material has been passed
upon by the courts, that these peo])le have been engaged in business
under an injunction granted by the courts and have been operating
with the sanction of the courts -and o})enly and publicly. This is
not an underground operation. These jjeople are operating a business.
The courts have inspected and examined the merchandise.
Now, I am not saying that for all the people, but of the persons who
are operating under court injunction.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Caidin, what injunction are you
speaking of, sir?
Mr. Caidix. Well, there are several injunctions that have been in
effect. One was granted under which Mr. Tager was engaged in his
business originally on the grounds — well, he was operating on a re-
straining order granted by the Federal court some years ago ; and at
the time that ]\Irs. Tager was testifying to, thei-e was a restraining
order in effect by which the business was permitted to continue with-
out interference from the Post Office Department.
Chairman Kefauver. A restraining order against whom?
Mr. Caidix. Against Roy Ross — I am sorry. That is against the
Post Office Department.
Chairman Kefai'Ver. Who was this attorney in getting that re-
straining order?
Mr. (Jaidix. I was the attornev who Pot the restrainino- oider.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 341
Cluiirniaii Kefauver. Well, Mr. Ciiidiii, we have had descriptions
of the material Avhich was involved. Do you disagree with the de-
scription of the pictures and the advertising and the method of oi)er-
ation described by Mrs. Tager?
Mr. Caidin. No. The materials sold were nude photographs of the
jNIarilyn Monroe calendar type, that is correct, and the courts do not
consiJer them obscene here in California, apparently.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, if it is all within the law, I don't see
whv you are excited about it.
Mr. Caidin. Well, 1 am excited because the testimony of Mrs. Tager
taken by itself would lead people to believe that I was an ogre of some
type, which I assure you I am not. I have tried to do
" Chairman Kefauver. Well, of course, lawyers very frequently rep-
resent the most heinous criminals — not saying Mrs. Tager is a crimi-
j^-il — but lawyers protect them in their rights. Courts always appoint
lawyers to protect criminal defendants when they don't have lawyers
of their own ; so even if this has been a flagrant law violation and if
you just acted as a lawyer in representing them, I don't see why you
should be so excited about it, Mr. Caidin. I think Mrs. Tager's
story, the testimony she has given, shows the flourishing of a very
substantial business' ; and she has told about how you were connected
with the business, what you did as her attorney.
What part of her story is not true, Mr. Caidin ?
Mr. Caidix. Well, firstly, she stated that I was paid on a percentage
biasis and that I — that they kept two sets of books, one which was
shown me and one which they showed for other purposes. That is
absolutely false. Now, I will say this
Chairman Keeai vek. Well now, on the percentage basis, have you
seen this checks
Mr. Caidin. I meant generally. Yes.
Let me go into that, if I may', although I don't think it is proper,
ao-aiu, for the reason that the arrangement between an attorney and
his client is not the concern of this committee; but since it was men-
tioned as though it were an improper thing, I would like to explain
these circumstances, then. Firstly, when the client first came to my
office. T might point out that he was out of business. The Post Office
Department had impounded all incoming mail.
Chairman Kefauver. Now^, who is that, Mrs. Tager?
Mr. Caidin. No. This is Mr. Ross. Mr. Ross came to the office,
advising me that he was out of business. He said the Post Office
Department was impounding his mail. He had another attorney
Avho had not had any success with the case.
Chairman Kefai'm^r. About when was this, Mr. Caidin?
Mr. Caidin. It was maybe 4 years ago, I gness. I am not sure of
the date. 1952, maybe.
Chairman Kefau\ek. About 4 years ago, then, all right.
Mr. Caidin. Approximately. Anyway, I was young and fresh out
of law school at the time.
Chairman Kefauver. Well now, Mr. C\iidin, was that the first
connection you had with it. 4 years ago. This check seems to be dated
June 18, 1950.
Mr. Caidin. Then that would be correct. It was befoi'e 1950, then.
It was before that check.
342 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
May I see the check, please ? It seemed like — i years seems like a
long time, but I guess it has been longer than that. May I see the
check ?
Chairman Kefau\t2e. Let's see. It is dated June 13, 1950, appar-
ently, but it seems to have been deposited on June 14, 1951.
]NIr. Caidin. Well, that mistake is on the check, then. The bank
mark would be correct, obviously.
Chairman Kefau^t:r. Yes.
Mr. Caidix. The error was on the check, then.
Chairman KEFAu^^ER. That is unless it was held up in being de-
posited.
Mr. Caidin. Not for a year, no, no, I am certain it wasn't held up
for a year. Senator. The 1951 date would be correct, and the date
on the face of the check, then, would be incorrect; so my 4-year esti-
mate would be very good. In fact, it is apparently exactly 4 years.
The check was dated June 14. 1951. That is the bank stamp.
Chairman Kefaumsr. That is when it was deposited ?
Let the check be an exhibit.
(The check was submitted earlier, marked ''Exhibit No. 34," and is
as follows:)
lA J»SA-B£V£Rir OfFlCfi
California Bank
175 NOKTH tA BKA AVENUE • lOS ANOJUS • £Al
/S IV S'£>
1»AY TO TMS
OfOi* OF
7.^ '> n,
-Zs
a- fY^ s; < 0
•a.' f^»i *e O "2
.H »]2 fis ^ >
■^ M»« U '-' ^
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 343
Mr. Caidin. Yes. At any rate, I was — this gentleman came to my
office, told me briefly he had been in the mail-order business selling
various types of merchandise, including lamps and novelties and pic-
tures; that the post office had closed him ofl by cutting off all of his
mail.
I said that seemed like a high-handed procedure, and I asked him
•what type of material he was selling, sending.
He showed me some photographs which were photographs of the
Marilyn Monroe type picture which are seen frequently on calendars
and are no more or less suggestive than the posters which the motion-
picture companies, in my oj^inion, at least, were using for advertis-
ing their films. I told him I didn't think that material was obscene.
In any event, it didn't seem to me that the Post Office Department in
a unilateral action should determine it to be obscene; that if the Post
Office Department had the right to impound mail on the belief of
somebody that it might be obscene because someone in the post office
didn't like it it didn't seem to me that that type of censorship was fair
or proper. There had never been a hearing of any consequence and
the mail had been seized.
Chairman Kefauver. Well now, Mr. Caidin, hadn't the Los Angeles
Police Department secured convictions against people dealing in this
type of material ?
Mr. Caidin. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Against Mr. Ross? Wasn't Mr. Ross con-
victed here in Los Angeles ?
Mr. Caidin. That was long, long after he came to my office, sir.
Chairman KEFAu^'ER. But it was over the same material, the same
type of material you are talking about ?
Mr. Caidin. I don't know whether he was convicted or whether he
pleaded guilty, as a matter of fact.
Chairman KEFAu^■ER. Well, anyway, he was found to be guilty,
either voluntarily or by conviction.
Mr. Caidin. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir.
Mr. Caidin. But at the time he came to me he had no prior con-
victions of any kind, to my knowledge, certainly ; and I told him that
this was a matter which should be tested in the courts, as to whether
the Post Office Department has the right to seize people's mail without
a formal adjudication by any court that the material was unmailable;
and I said it didn't appear to me that it was unmailable. So I filed a
lawsuit and, incidentally, this was at the time the discussion of fees
came into it. I hesitated to go into it because, as I say, I don't think
the matter of an attorney's fees is relevant to a matter of juvenile
delinquenc3^ Mr. Ross told me he didn't have a dime, couldn't pay
any money for attorney's fees, and couldn't-pay attorney's fees. I told
him if he couldn't pay attorney's fees, then 1 couldn't represent him.
He said, he just was broke, they just closed down his business. He
didn't have 10 cents of money coming in, and he was completely desti-
tute. In etfect, that is what he told me.
I said. "Well, how do you expect me to take a case without any
agi'eement for compensation T'
It was then that it was agreed upon that he would pay me a small
retainer and 10 percent of the business if the case was successful;
and that was agreeable to him, and, of course, in my mind if the
344 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
courts held that the business was a proper one and that there was
nothing wrong with it and that he would be operating under a coiu"t
restrainirig order, I certainly saw and do not see any impropriety in
any such arrangement. If there were, I never would have made it.
I felt the pictui'es were not obscene, the court would not find them
obscene; and since he couldn't pay attorneys fees and was entitled
to representation, and this was a reasonable basis for proceeding, and
we did j^roceed on this basis.
Chairman Kefauvee. T^et me see what your agreement was. Ten
percent of the amount realized from gross sales?
Mr. Caidin. Yes. Of course, very frankly, I didn't know what
the gross sales woidd be. T had no conception of what that fee would
come to, whether it would be a high fee or a low fee. I didn't know
whether we would be successful in the court action, although I be-
lieved we would because I thought the material was not obscene and
I didn't believe the court would find it obscene.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, was it A^our understanding that if you
won the case, it was going to be 10 percent from then on out as long
as he was in business I
Mr. Caidin. I don't remember the exact terms of the retainer agree-
ment. It has been 4 years. It either was for a period of time, so
long as he shall continue in business, or for a specified period, which-
eA^er occurs hrst. I am not sure of the wording of the retainer agree-
ment, but I don't have it with me ; but it was for 10 percent for a per-
iod which hadn't expired, at any rate. I don't know what the exact
term was : but, anyway, we were successful and obtained a restraining
order in the court. As a matter of fact, it was a three-judge court
hearing held here in the Federal Building, and the matter was taken
under submission for some length of time.
The 10 percent agreement, incidentally, was never observed and I
never saw any set of books, no set of books was ever submitted. It
is true that some accountants did go into the business, but I never
really did anything, I mean.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mrs. Tager said that you sent an audi-
tor over to see the books and that she showed them the books with
the lesser amount.
Mr. Caidin. Well, I have no knowledge of what books were shown
the auditors.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you send auditors over to see the books ?
Mr. Caidin. Yes. sir. According to the auditors I was being under-
paid by either 25 or 35 thousand. By my own auditors, and, I don't
know, it was agreed, at any rate, instead of a percentage, that a re-
tainer agreement be made, which I think was $1,500 a month, and that
was in substitution of any percentage agreement. I was satisfied be-
cause, very frankly, I didn t intend to — I didn't know what the per-
centage would be. and I felt that $1,500 a month was a fair fee. cer-
tainly, and I had no quarrel with it; and that was
Chairman Kefauver. $1,500 a month?
Mr. Caidin. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Was that after the case had been settled?
Mr. Caidin. I beg your pardon?
Chairman Kefauver. Was that after the case had been decided and
they were allowed to operate?
Mr. Caidin. Oh, yes.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 345
Chairman Kefauver. How mucli did you get under tliis 10 percent
arrangement ?
Mr. Caidin. As far as I know, I got nothing under the 10 percent
arrangement. 1 received a payment— this, of course, I am goino- way
back now. I have to give estimates. I received a payment of, I think,
$400 a month. $000, $800, and then $1,200; and tlien finally they
settled on $1,500. They never — I was never submitted any accounting
of the business. I would just get a check, and it would* be for some
amount like 6, 8, 700, 1 don't know what it w^as now; and finally at the
end of the time we agreed on $1,500 as a retainer. I never enforced
any 10 percent agreement and never tried to.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, did you get 10 percent as long as the
business operated ?
Mr. Caidin. I never got 10 percent, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, I thought you said — well, vou o-ot
$1,500 a month, then?
Mr. Caidin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. As long as it operated, or do you still get it?
Mr, Caidin. No, no, sir. 1 haven't received it for years. I'think
I only received $1,500 — I think for about 6 or 7 or 8 months, no more
than that. Six or seven months, I think it was; and then the total I
received was probably, from that phase of my representation, I think
was about probably ten oi- twelve thousand dollars. I am not sure.
It was in the neighborhood of $10,000.
But, as I say again, I hate to be here justifying what fee I charged.
I don't think this has got anything to do with juvenile delinquency.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, I think the way this operation goes on
is important from the view^point of our inquiry, Mr. Caidin.
Mr. Caidin. Well, I would be happy to cooperate and answer any
questions.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you go on and tell all about it. What
w^as it you said about $35,000 that auditors found that you were being
underpaid ?
Mr. Caidin. I don't remember the hgure. It was a substantial
amount. I don't know whether it was 25,000, H5.0()0, or 20 or 40. I
don't recall, frankly; but if the 10-percent agreement had been kept
in effect, it would have been substantially more.
Chairman KErAu\'ER. Yes.
Mr. Caidin. But, as I say, I never attempted to enforce that, and
I think there was some testimony here that 1 turned over a list — was
that the testimony of Mrs. Tager, sir? I missed it. Did you ask
Mrs. Tager if I turned over some names to the business? Was that
question asked?
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sii-.
Mr. Caidin. That is absolutely false ?
Chairman Kefauver. No. I think she said — 1 believe she said it
came from Mi-. Cummins.
Mr. BoRO. No. She said Mr. Caidin furnished a list of customers
from Washington, I). C.
Mr. Caidin. If that is her testimony, that is absolutely false.
Chairman Kefauver. Let's get is straight, now. Where is Mrs.
Tager. Just stand up.
Who was it you said in the law Hnn furnished you with a list of
names?
346 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mrs. Tager. Mr. Caidin.
Chairman Kefauxt^r. Wheii was that ?
Mrs. Tager. It was a list of 00,000 names. They supposedly came
from Washington.
Chairman Kefauver. Did he bring them to you personally and give
them to you?
Mrs. Tager. Yes. They were brought to the office, and I didn't
want any part of them; but they supposedly came from the files in
"Washington.
Chairman KErAu\T.R. From somebody in Washington?
Mrs. Tager. In other words, if I had sent out a mailing on these
60,000 names, they were supposedly people — repeat buyers that the
Post Office Department had kept a file on. In other words, every one
of those names would have ordered, they would have brought in money.
Chairman Kefait^er. All right. Anj'way, we are just interested
in clarifying j'our testimony.
Mr. Caidtn", That is absolutely false, 100 — I never heard such false
testimony in my life. It is completely and absolutely false. That
is perjury, unquestioned perjury; and it is no more true than her
fantastic statements about 60 percent of her customers being doctors.
This woman should not be i^ermitted to make accusations like this.
It is absolutely false. I have never heard — I am shocked even to
think that that statement would be made, that I would submit a name.
T not only have not submitted 60,000 names
Chairman Kefati^^er. Well, jNIr. Caidin, you have no objection to
the business, so I don't see why submitting names should make any
di ff erence.
Mr. Caidix. Well, I have an objection to the business if the business
were improper or judicially determined
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you said it had not been judicially de-
termined to be improper and you had no compunction about it, so I
don't see why you are so excited about names. If a business is all
right, why shoiddn't you submit all the names you want to ?
Mr. Caidiis'. Well, I certainly don't— I am not in business with any
client. I don't submit names or I don't submit customers to any
client, and the statement that I submitted names is just absolutely
false.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. Well, I mean, if you thought the business was
all right, and you said you thought it was all right, I don't see why
helping your client in the business wouldn't be — why you have any
objection to that. After all, you were supposed to get 10 percent of
the gross. It might enhance your business. It might enhance your
fee.
Mr. Caidin. As I explained, Senator, I was not receiving 10 percent
of the gross.
Chairman Kefauver. I know. You were supposed to.
Mr. Caidin. I never attempted to obtain 10 percent.
Chairman Kefauver. That was the agreement.
Mr. Caidin. Yes, sir, but I was not receiving 10 percent of the gross,
and it was not to my benefit to increase business or help business or
participate in business; and it just isn't so. That is all. If a person
testifies
Senator Kefauver. Well, if you didn't expect to receive 10 percent,
v.'hat did you make an agreement to that effect for ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 347
Mr. Caidin. Because that was the only basis upon which I could be
compensated. I had no idea what 10 percent would be.
Frankly, I am not trying to apologize for 10 percent. If a client
comes to me without any funds and I think he is entitled to representa-
tion, I will make a contingent representation with him.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir.
Mv. Caidin. Is there anything else ?
Chairman KefxVuver. No. You just tell anything you want to about
it.
She particularly^ talked about the trip over to Las Vegas or some-
where.
]Mr. Caidin. I think she testified that I went with her to Las Vegas
when they made a mailing. That is false.
I did go to Las Vegas after the mail had been impounded, not for
mailing.
Chairman Kefauver. No; she didn't say you went there to make
tlie mailing, I don't believe. She said after the mailing was tied up,
then you and she went to Las Vegas.
Mr. Caidin. That is true. I went with her to obtain the release of
the mail.
Chairman Kefauver. And to Tucson and Phoenix.
Mr. Caidix. That is correct; and I appeared at the post office and
presented legal affidavits. I appeared as her counsel before the in-
spectors in the Post Office Department to obtain release of the mail.
Chairman Kefauver. And you got some cease and desist order?
Mr. Caidiist. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. In the courts, or where did you get it ?
Mr. Caidin. From Washington. It was forwarded by the Post
Office Department.
Chairman Kefauver. Then did j^ou have some difficulty about tying
up the bundles ?
Mr. Caidin. I have no recollection of any difficulty in tying up
bundles. I think there was a discussion
Cliairman Kefauver. That you ought to keep them, rather than
she ('
Mr. Caidin. Yes; there was such a discussion. I am just trying
to recall exactly what happened.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, did you get a rope and tie the packages
up?
]Mr. Caidust. I have no recollection. It is possible. I don't deny
that, though. I might have tied it. I don't remember getting a rope.
I don't know where I could have gotten a rope.
Chairman KErAU\'ER. Well, a big string?
Mr. Caidin. No. I don't recall tying up packages.
Chairman Kefauver. What was the discussion about who was going
to keep the packages ?
Mr. Caidix. Well, Mrs. Tager was so insistent that she keep the
packages, that I told her I didn't see why she should be so insistent
upon it ; and she finally says that apparently she didn't trust nv- or
I didn't — I don't know, or 1 didn't trust her. I don't know, but there
was sonie discussion about where the suitcases would be.
Chairman Kefauver. Anyway, there was a lack of mutual trust in
the matter somewhere.
6520.3 — 55 23
348 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Caidin. At that point, after my auditors' check, I think there
was a certain amount of distrust crept into the matter. But, in any
event, my statement has been lost here in tlie questioning ; what I was
trying to get at is this : I don't feel that as an attorney I have ever
done anything except represent my clients properly and ethically,
and at the hearing this morning, the way the charges and the nature
of Mrs. Tager's testimony, contrary to her impressions, would be
gleaned
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Caidin, did you Imow they were
operating under all these different names in getting mailings in
different names i
Mr. Caidin. Yes; I knew that.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you think that was a little odd?
Mr. Caidin. No, sir; I knew why it was being done.
Chairman Kefauver. And why was it being done? You knew
why
Mr. Caidin. I am just trying to think. I am not so sure now. I
am not so sure I knew why it was being done.
I will tell 3'OU, Senator, as I recall now, I didn't know that mailings
were being made under these different names until after the mail
had been impounded. In other words, they never consulted with me
and said they were going to make a mailing under the name of Joe
Smith in a ceilain territory. I did not kno\\' it prior to any mailings.
Xow, what did happen was this : After a mail — after certain mail
would be impounded, perhaps, then I would learn for the first time
that a mailing had been made and had been impounded. Then I
would learn that a mailing had been made under a different name.
That would be the first time I would know about it.
Chairman Kei\\u\'er. That didn't make any difference to you 'i
Mr, Caidin. It was the same merchandise. If it was not obscene
and it Avas proper merchandise under the law, no, I don't care what
name they mailed it under.
Chairman Kefauver. You didn't stop representing them when
you found that out?
Mr. Caidin. No, sir. I saw nothing wrong with it. As long as the
merchandise was proper and could go through the mails properl}', I
saw no reason.
Chairman Kefauver. "\Miat was the reason they used so many dif-
ferent names? You said you knew. What was the reason?
Mr. Caidin. Well, ]Mrs. Tager — I am not so sure I knew, now. It
might be — I don't know, to tell you the truth, except ]Mrs. Tager said
it helps business. I really — I don't know. I do know, apparently, if
Mrs. Tager's testimony is accurate.
Chairman Kefau\'er. You don't think it had anything to do with
sort of avoiding postal inspectors ?
Mr. Caidin. No, sir. I will tell you why. That is — I am not being
facetious — I would say no, absolutely not, because they didn't have to
use different names. They were operating under a court restraining
order, and all tlie mail was being delivered to their home door, to the
business there, and there was no use to use fictitious names to assure
mail delivery, and all the mail was being received, so it is not true
that they were doing this to avoid postal laws. There couldn't be a
reason for it.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 349
Chairman Kefauver. What name did you get the restraining
order in?
Mr. Caidhst. Roy J. Ross.
Chairman KE^Au^ER. But there were a whole lot of other names
where Mr. Ross' name didn't appear, weren't tliere; a lot of names
and advertisements?
Mr. Caidin. I don't know.
Chairman Kefauver. When you got the restraining order, when
did you get it, Mr. Caidin ?
Mr. Caidin. I don't recall the date.
Chairman Kefauver. Then, what happened to Mr. Ross after this
Nevada business? What happened to Mr. Ross?
Oh, yes. One other thing I think you ought to explain. Mrs.
Tager said that you brought the mail back in suitcases and you came
with her on the plane. That was true ?
Mr. Caidin. That is true.
Chairman Kefauver. And then that you had a meeting, and I think
you ought to explain this, at somebody's home; where she was there
and you were there and others were there.
Mr. Catdin. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Who all were there ? Did she name the right
people ? What was the purpose of this meeting ?
Mr. Caidin. To open the mail.
Chairman Kefau\"er. Were your partners there at the same time?
Mr. Caidin. I don't recall. No — I think she mentioned Mr. Bloom-
garden's name. I don't know. He might have been there. If he was
there, he didn't stay long. He might have dropped in. I don't think
he Avas there during the meeting ; no.
Chairman Kefaust.r. Then when you opened the mail, what did
you do ? I mean, who opened the mail ?
Mr. Catdin. I don't recall. I was sitting there at a table when the
mail was being opened.
Chairman Kefauver. Did all of you keep accounts as to how much
the orders were ?
Mr. Caidin. Probablj^ . I didn't keep accounts. I mean I was there.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, who was keeping accounts for you.
Mr. Caidin. I don't recall. I might have. I might have made
notes, too. I don't recall.
Chairuum Kefauvf.r. Was there some argument about the fact that
since this mail was so old, that many checks might have had payment
stopped on them ?
Mr. Caidin. That was discussed, yes ; because, as I said, the agree-
ment was if I succeeded in releasing the mail, it was a percentage
agreement on that ; and they said that the checks might not be good.
That is correct. There was such a discussion.
Cliainuan Kefai ver. So it was finally agreed to wait until the
checks cleared to see what it was?
JMr. Caidin. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefaitver. And tliat is when this check was made^
Mr. Caidin. Probably. Probably.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, sir. Then what happened to Mr.
Ross ? How long did you continue to represent him, Mr. Caidin i
Mr. Caidin. Oh, I don't know.
Chairman Kefauver. I mean, a year, 2 years?
350 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Catdin. It might have been a year. I don't know. It might
have been 6 months, a year. Actually, now, Senator
Chairman Kefau\'ER. Well, did he finally get indicted in Kansas?
Mr. Caidin. There was an action brought in Kansas which was dis-
missed.
Chairman KEFAu^'ER. Did you represent him there?
Mr. Caidin. No, sir ; I did not. I counseled him.
Chairman Kefauver. We have here the indictment in Kansas, 89
counts. All the counts are sending material to children under 21 years
of age ; some of them 11, some 14. Did you know anything about that ?
Mr. Caidin. I know there was an action filed in Kansas and Mr.
Eoss talked to me about it. The action was dismissed.
Chairman Kefauver. "Whj^ did it get dismissed ?
Mr. Caidix. It was dismissed because the court in Kansas had no
jurisdiction to try the case, and the case was later refiled here in the
Los Angeles Federal court, and Mr. Ross went to trial and was
acquitted. The merchandise was found by the court to be not obscene.
It was heard right here, and the merchandise and the pictures and
the films were seen by the Federal court judge here in Los Angeles,
sir, and the court found that none of the material sent by Mr. Ross
was obscene, and Mr, Ross was acquitted after a trial.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you represent him in that trial ?
Mr. Caidix. No, sir; I did not.
Chairman Kefau\^r. Well, did Mr. Ross get convicted in the State
courts here in Los Angeles, then ?
Mr. Caidin. I have heard that to be the case.
Chairman Kefauver. But you didn't represent him ?
Mr. Caidix. I did not represent him.
Chairman Kefauver. How did you happen to stop representing
him ?
Mr. Caidin. He stopped coming to see me. I don't recall. I never
had a conversation in which he said, "You no longer represent me";
and I never told him, "I no longer represent you." It was just a part-
ing of the ways, I guess.
Chairman Kefauver. He just got another lawyer?
Mr. Caidin. I presume. I mean
Chairman Kefauver. Well, he had to have a lawyer to be in court,
I guess.
Mr. Caidin. Yes. It was not an unfriendly termination. It was
just a parting of the ways.
My judgment, apparently, has been completely vindicated insofar
as the nature of the business. The court here having found that none
of the merchandise was obscene, my judgment in the first instance ap-
pears to have been correct, when I said I didn't believe any of the
merchandise was obscene. I don't want it to appear that I was
handling — representing a client
Chairman Kefauver. ^^Hiat do you personally think about that ad-
vertisement, Mr. Caidin? That was some of Mr. Ross', some adver-
tisement of this group.
Mr. Caidin. I don't ap])rove of the advertising.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you knew they were sending out that
kind of thing, didn't you ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 351
Mr. Caidin. I didn't make it a point to inspect the advertising. I
saw the merchandise that they were selling. I thought that under
tlie statute, that the test of obscenity is what they were sending to
the customers ; whether the pictures they were sending were obscene.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, we are considering here our proposals
to amend the postal laws on obscenity. Do you think they ought to
be amended ?
Mr. Caidin. That is a question I was hoping you would ask, Sena-
tor, and it is not one that I am going to be able to answer very well.
There are two public interests here to be served, and it is a very,
very difficult question for this reason. Firstly, if the post office is
given any broader powers than it has now, I think it would be ex-
tremely dangerous. The way the law is set up now, a hearing is held
in Washington before the Post Office Department, by which merchan-
dise is inspected by the Department, and if the Postmaster General
in the exercise of his unlimited discretion should think the material
is objectionable, he has the right to issue a stop order by which all
incoming mail can be seized. Now, that is a power which is a dan-
gerous power, because we are left to depend upon the Postmaster
General's personal viewpoint as to what is objectionable and what is
not objectionable ; and we have much material that is along the line,
or public morals or viewpoints might change, the sentiment of the
country might be different at one time, or a particular man might
think one set of photos is obscene and another man looking at the same
set would think they are not obscene. Yet, if we give the Postmaster
General the right in his own discretion to seize the mail, it could sub-
ject all the citizens of this country to a tyrannical power.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean, you think it might be a bad thing
if the Postmaster General had the right to seize this stuff going
through the mail ?
Mr. Caidin. It depends on what the merchandise being sold is.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, do you think this ought to be declared
obscene? That has been sent through the mail by your people, your
clients.
Mr. Caidin. Well, it certainly is borderline. It is borderline.
Chairman Kefauver. Pretty close, you think ?
Mr. Caidin. Yes. I would say that is borderline material; but I
don't consider the merchandise sold in response to those ads as being-
obscene.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, the ads are just as important — more
people see the ads than do the merchandise.
Mr. Caidin. Well, if you take those ads, I would say they were very
poor taste. It is, as you say
Chairman Kefauver. You wouldn't like your young children to be
seeing too much of that.
Mr. Caidin. No. It is in poor taste. To say it is obscene, I don't
know. I would have to look at the material with the ads, actually,
to see if the material is obscene.
Chairman Kefaits'er. I know, but whether you get the material or
not, here these are what they send out as a come-on for the others, and
I expect more people see this than do the material.
Mr. Caidin. As I say, it is borderline. It is poor taste. I wouldn't
say it is obscene. It is in poor taste.
352 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver, Well, would you want your children to be
reading this kind of stuff ?
Mr. Caidin. No, sir; I wouldn't want my children to read anything
in poor taste, including the comic books and much of our literature.
I certainly wouldn't want that in my home ; no.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you wouldn't like your children to have
these nude pictures around, would you, that the}' send out in response
to this I
Mr. Caidin. I frankly- — the nude pictures that I have seen
Chairman Kefauver. Well, just answer the Cjuestion. Do you want
your children in possession of these nude pictures that your clients
sent out ?
Mr. Caidin. Well, I will have to make it a hypothetical answer,
since my oldest child is 2i/2 years of age. I would answer the ques-
tion ''No"; I wouldn't want nude pictures personally around the house.
Chairman Kefauver. That is what we are getting at.
Mr. Caidust. Yes; but, as I say, it is a matter of taste; and if the
pictures themselves are not obscene in the sense of being repugnant
to a sense of morals or decency. I looked at the picture such as the
Marilyn Monroe picture, and it doesn't seem obscene to me, sir. As
I say, it is a question of morals and taste.
Getting back to the revision of the law
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you appreciate the fact that young
children are more impressionable than adults, aren't they ?
Mr. Caidin. Yes, sir. 1 might say that I am sure we have all seen
when we were youngsters pictures of — nude pictures and slides; and
the point is
Cliairman Kefauver. But you don't advocate it, do you?
Mr. Caidin. I don't — I wouldn't want to make it a public plat-
form that every child should receive nude films as part of his grow-
ing up; but they will get it, and I don't think it will do them any
harm.
Chairman Kefatt^'er. If they don't get too much of it?
Mr. Caidin. Well, as I say, the Marilyn Monroe picture in the hands
of an adolescent isn't going to — I don't think it will have a bad effect
on his future development or growth. I just don't see it.
But getting back, if I may, sir, to the question which you asked,
which I suppose is the primary purpose of the committee
Chairman Kefauver. Yes,
Mr. Caidin. As to recommendations in reference to legislation, I
tliink that what we have are actually adequate laws, in this sense:
I don't think tlie Post Office Department should be set up as a judge of
the morals of the country, and if any broader powers would be given,
that would be the case. I think tlie Postmaster General's powers are
too broad now. I think Ave have criminal statutes that make it a crimi-
nal offense to send pornographic and lewd material through the mail.
Penalty for violating that statute is a $5,000 tine and 5 or 10 years' im-
prisonment. Now, if that is not an adequate safeguard against pornog-
raphy. I frankly don't know what would be. If a man violates the
law, he will be given a substantial fine and a prison sentence and will
be convicted of a felony under our present existing laws.
Now, if men are sending ]>ornographic material through the mail,
they should be brought to trial on such statutes; but I don't see that
the expansion of the powers of the postmaster are any answer.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 353
Chairman Kefauvek. Well, I appreciate your views about it. Of
course, one thino-, tlieic is a loophole in the law about carrying it in
trucks and automobiles, which we hope to get tightened up.
Ml'. Bobo, do you have any questions you vv-ant to ask?
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Caidin, I just wonder if this is the only arrangement
you have had with people in this business, similar arrangement, with
Ross and Tager ? Have you had a similar arrangement with others in
this same business, as to the matter of a fee for your representing them
for a percentage of the business ?
Mr. (IviDTN. It is possible. I may have.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know the names of who your clients might have
been i
Mr. Caidin. Yes, sir. I think I had one other arrangement of that
type-
Mr. BoBO. Who was that, Mr. Caidin?
]Mr. Caidix. I refuse to answer the name of the party, except in
closed doors, as a privilege between attorney and client. I am not
privileged, as an attorney, to mention my client's name.
3Ir. BoBO. Had you represented this person in a cease-and-desist
order and received your contingency on the basis of that?
]Mr. Caidix. Which person are you referring to now ?
Mr. Bobo. This second person of wdiom you are speaking now.
Mr. CUiDix. I don't believe so.
Mr. BoBO. Is the 10 percent fee — that attorney-client relationship
that 3'ou are expressing there, is the 10 percent for services performed
or is it a part of the business ?
]\Ir. C/Aipix. No. No. I am not sure. Frankly, I am not sure that
I had such an ai'rangement with another one. I might have had it
with one other party, I am not sure. I would have to check my files.
It might have been a straight retainer or straight percentage, but I
think of another party that I might have had such an arrangement
with. I am not sure.
]Mr. BoBO. But it wasn't for past services performed?
Mr. Caidix. Yes. It was a combination of past services — it was
for services being pei'formed, if there was such an arrangement. I
don't recall.
Mr. BoBO. Did 3^011 i-eceive monthly payments on a gross part of
the business that this other person did, gross monthly ?
]Mr. Caidix. I don't believe I had such an arrangement.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know what they amounted to, what the payments
in this particular instance amounted to?
Mr. (IviDix. Very small.
Mr. BoBO. You have no idea as to the approximate amount?
^Ir. Caidix. Oh, it might have been a thousand five hundred — five
hundred to two thousand dollars.
Mr. Bono. That is per month ?
Mr. Caidix. Oh, no. That is, I think, all I received.
]\Ir. BoBO. All you received at any time.
Chairman Kefauver. Did you have anything to do with this associ-
ation ?
Mr. Caidix. No, sir.
('hairman Kefauver. Do you know about it?
^Ir. Caidix. This is the first I heard about it, was here.
354 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, now, Mr. Caidin, you want
to say ?
Mr. Caidin. Well, no, except I don't think the committee should
go into these problems between attorneys and clients and fees and
all that business.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Caidin, it appears to us that this
was more than an attorney-client arrangement. You were actually —
at least had a contract to get 10 percent of the business ; 10 percent,
as far as we know, just on and on. Well, maybe it didn't work out
that way, but that looks more like a participation in the business
rather than just a representation.
Mr. Caidin. As I say, sir, the agreement w^as not enforced. One,
it was never observed. Second, as long as it is a proper business, like
if it is no different than if it was Sears, Koebuck mail-order house, this
is a mail-order business; and if there is any difference between a
legitimate mail-order house and receiving a contingent fee from that
and receiving a contingent fee in any other type of case, as long as
the business is proper and approved b}^ the courts, it is a proper
business.
Chairman Kefauver. I don't hear many fees based — attorneys base
fees upon the amount of recovery. If you have a negligence case,
you get 25 percent or whatever the amount of recovery ; but certainly
it is uncommon to me that lawyers are paid by a corporation or busi-
ness on the basis of a percentage of the gross sales of a business.
Mr. Caidin. I have handled many, many business deals, sir, out-
side of this field, in which I have a partici]Dating arrangement with
the client for legal services ; and I particular!}' refer, of course, to the
motion-picture business. It is a frequent custom.
Chairman KefxVTJver. To get a percentage of the gross sales ?
Mr. Caidin. Of the income from a motion picture ; yes, sir. That is,
producers — I have in the office now at least one motion picture, and
I have had several television programs and other materials of that
type in which our fee was a retainer plus a percentage of the income.
Chairman Kefauver. That would be for legal services on that one
picture, wouldn't it ?
Mr. Caidin. It would be for legal services on the picture ; yes, sir.
Senator Kefauver. Here are these people operating under different
names, over a long period of time, a general business. Do you know
of any case like that ?
Mr. Caidin. A television series would go
Senator Kefatr^r. I am not talking about a series. A person has
a X corporation, engaged in the hotel business, the theater business.
Some lawyer gets a percentage of the gross sales, gross business.
I have never heard of it.
Mr. Caidin. Well, sir, it is not an uncommon arrangement.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, have vou had any arrangement like
that?
Mr. Caidin. In the motion picture and television field I have.
Chairman IvEFAmER. I mean, of the gross sales of the whole com-
pany, a percentage of the gross sales of the whole company?
Mr. Caidin. Well, yes, sir. An independent production
Chairman Kefauver. I am not talking about just some film, where
it is just a 1 film or 1 production. I mean, XYZ motion picture com-
pany, you get 10 percent of the gross sales of the whole company?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 355
Mr. Caidix. I personally haven't had it, but I am sure lawyers have
had it.
For instance, to get back to motion pictures, if I may, where a com-
pany is formed, it might make 10 pictures and give a iO-percent run-
ning interest to the attorney for all the pictures they might take.
That is not an uncommon arrangement.
Chairman Kefau\-er. All right, Mr. Caidin, Thank you, sir.
Mr. Caidin. Thank you.
Senator Kefauver. Now, who is our next witness ?
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Stapenhorst.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Ealph E. Stapenhorst, please.
How are you, Mr. Stapenhorst?
All right,' Mr. Bobo.
(Mr. Stapenhorst was sworn.)
TESTIMONY OF RALPH E. STAPENHOEST, POSTAL IITSPECTOE,
GLENDALE, CALIF.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Stapenhorst, would you state your full name and
address and your position for the benefit of the record ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. My name is Ralph E. Stapenhorst. I live at
409 West Lexington Drive, Glendale 3, Calif. I am employed as a
post office inspector and domiciled at Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. BoBO. As a post office inspector, what do your duties consist of ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Among other cases assigned to me for investiga-
tion at Los Angeles, are many involving possible dealers in obscene
matter.
Mr. BoBO. In following through on these particular cases, have you
ever dealt with any matters involved in sending nude photos through
the mail, the type of material which we have been discussing here this
morning ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Yes, I have ; starting early in 1948.
Mr. Bobo. What is the position of the Post Office Department with
regard to those engaged in the business of sending out advertising
matter and in receiving orders back through the mail and mailing out
these photo sequences ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. The Postmaster General, postmasters, chief post
office inspector and post office inspectors after a mailing has been made
of the circular matter similar to that which has been shown to the com-
mittee, frequently receive complaints from both adults and the parents
of juveniles wlio have received the advertising. Upon receiving such
complaints, a case is issued for investigation by a post office inspector.
As is fairly well known, the post office inspector uses test names and
addresses throughout the country to purchase this material. The
evidence is then presented to the United States attorney for considera-
tion of prosecution. We sometimes have cases involving what the
dealers in this matter have called borderline material, in which a cer-
tain United States attorney does not wish to consider prosecution, but
the inspector considers that it is sufficiently obscene and indecent to
try to })ut the operator out of business. With material of this kind,
the inspector submits a i-eport to his inspector in charge, and it reaches
the Department in Washington, and if the Solicitor, who is the legal
authority for the Post Office Department, agrees, a hearing is held
under the Administrative Procedures Act. If the evidence b(;fore the
356 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
hearing examiner for the Department is considered such, the Post-
master General issues an unlawful order.
Mr. Bono. Mr. Stapenhorst, while you have been here in the Los
Angeles office, have you become familiar with the Koss-Tager case
which has been under discussion this morning ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. I have considerable familinrity with parts of the
Eoss-Tager operation. I did leave Los Angeles for other assignments
in February, 1950, and returned to Los Angeles in September 1953.
So my knowledge of certain court actions and so forth with regard to
Eoy J. Ross and Louis Tager is partly from reading reports of other
inspectors and partly from hearsay.
I did, however, cooperate with the United States attorney at Los
Angeles in March, 1954, in the prosecution of Roy J. Ross and Louis
Tager.
]Mr. Bono. From the file which you have and from your experience
with that case, would you outline for us the operation of the Ross-
Tager business that was revealed by your investigation and the Post
Office Department investigation?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Another inspector determined the destination
of numerous parcels mailed into the State of Kansas by Roy J. Ross
and Louis Tager, and after interviewing many hundreds of addressees,
we found that somewhere around 80 of them were juveniles, and those
persons were willing to be witnesses in the prosecution of Ross and
Tager in Kansas.
We have had testimony that that indictment was dismissed on the
grounds that the court in Kansas did not have jurisdiction, as was
a similar indictment in Detroit, Mich.
Chairman Ivefauver. Against Ross and Tager there?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Against Ross and Tager in Detroit, Mich.
We had as witnesses in the Ross and Tager prosecution in Los An-
geles five juveniles in the State of California who had purchased what
we consider obscene material from Roy J. Ross and Louis Tager.
Mr. Bono. "Wliat type of material is this, Mr. Stapenhorst?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Roy J. Ross and Louis Tager had an assortment
of moving picture films that might have had 40 or 50 different titles.
In the films were depicted — in one film, a female wearing an uplift
brassiere and black panties, talking on the telephone and squirming
around on a bed, in what some people would consider suggestive poses.
In others females who have unusually large developed breasts take
various provocative poses, and encircle the breasts with a rope, and
otherwise call attention to their anatomy. In others 3 or 4 females
in the nude might be playing baseball, and, of course, some people
would get a lascivious reaction from such moving pictures.
Mr. BoBO. In addition to that were there still photos in color or
slides ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Yes. Roy J. Ross and Louis Tager also sold
through the mail in large quantities sets of photographs of females
in the nude, and also color transparencies.
Mr. BoBO. You were telling us the outcome of the case here in
Los Angeles before I stopped you, Mr. Stapenhorst.
Mr. Stapenhorst. Early in February, I believe it was, Louis Tager
pleaded guilty to the first five counts in the indictment which charged
mailing obscene matter, and to count No. 51, which charged con-
spiracy to violate the law regarding obscene matter.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 357
A trial was had before Federal Judge Peirson M. Hall on about
March 29, 1954, and the judge, after viewing a number of the films
and examining the slides and photographs, declared that the material
he had viewed was not obscene ; that Roy J. Ross was not guilty.
Mr. Tager then moved to have his plea of guilty set aside, which
motion the judge accepted, and the United States attorney was ordered
to proceed with the prosecution later that afternoon. Wlien the
United States attorney informed the court that he wished to have
some of the juvenile witnesses here and needed time, the action against
Louis Tager was dismissed for want of prosecution by the Govern-
ment.
Mr. BoBO. In the operation
Chairman Kefauver. I didn't understand. Did he first plead
guilty ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Louis Tager first pleaded guilty to the first five
counts in the indictment and to the 51st count charging conspiracy.
Chairman Kefauver. And then he decided to change his plea ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. He decided to change his plea on the afternoon
that he learned that his partner, Roy J. Ross, had been found "to be not
guilty in court.
Chairman Kefauver. And then the United States attorney asked
time to get the juvenile witnesses, then?
Mr. Stapenhorst. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. And the case — they didn't come in?
Mr. Stapenhorst. The action against Ross concluded about 2 : 30,
and the court recessed until 4 o'clock that afternoon when the trial
of Louis Tager was to proceed. Naturally, since the juveniles lived
anywhere from San Mateo to San Diego, Calif., a distance of 120 to
400 miles, we couldn't have them here in an hour and a half.
Chairman Kefauver. We have the transcript of the record in that
case which will be made an exhibit to the hearings at this time.
(The transcript referred to was marked "Exliibit No. 35," and is as
follows:)
In the United States District Court
Southern District of California, Central Division
Hon. Peirson M. Hall, judge, presiding
No. 23340— Criminal
United States of America, plaintiff v. Roy J. Ross, defendant
reporter's transcript of partial proceedings
Los Angeles, Calif., March 23, 1954
Appearances
For the plaintiff : Langhlin E. Waters, United States Attorney, Los Angeles 12,
California: by Manuel Real, Assistant United States Attorney.
For the defendant : Burke Mathes, Esq., 453 South Spring Street, Los Angeles
13, California.
Los Angeles, Calif., March 23, 195//, 2 p. m.
The Court. How long do you want to argue this case, Mr. Real?
Mr. Real. Not too long, your Honor. I just want to point out a few things.
and that is with relation to at least 4 of the movies which I thought, as I was
watching, came within the purview of the statute. One was "Sheer Delight,"
and I think that goes beyond the art phase. In other words, we are going
358 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
to have a basis of whether or not it is art or whether or not it is actually lewd,
and then in between there will be the varying degrees.
The Court. No ; the statute does not say anything about art.
Mr. Real. I linow it doesn't.
The Court. The prosecution did not say anything about art.
Mr. Real. That is correct.
The Court. The statute says that they are obscene, lewd, lascivious, and filthy.
Mr. Real. As to the basis of obscene, I think most of the tests have been estab-
lished on whether or not they are art or they are obscene, and in between there
has been a number where nobody could decide whether it might have been art
or might not have been, or might have been obscene or miglit not have been.
I think Sheer Delight crosses that line with the carressing of the hands and
breasts and private parts which I think goes beyond the line.
The Court. There was no evidence of that.
Mr. Real. I thought I saw that in Sheer Delight.
Then the picture Enough Rope, with the tying up of the breasts, and in Satan's
Daughter, again the carressing of the breasts, and I think Busy Signal, I think,
was the worst of the lot.
The Court. Why?
Mr. Real. That was the one with the suggestion of moving around.
The Court. Maybe she had to.
Your argument reminds me of the Frenchman who came to New York and saw
the Empire State Building, and someone wanted to know what he thought of it.
He said, "It reminds me of sex."
The other person asked him, "Why?"
"Well, everything reminds me of sex."
Mr. liEAL. That is true. The human body reminds people of sex, but the thing
is people don't normally sit and loll in a chair or on a bed, people don't normally
do the things that were done in these particular films. It is not a normal reac-
tion. It is not a normal result of any action of the human body ; it is something
that has been actually used to suggest the subject of sex to arouse people to
sexual passions.
I think. Your Honor, in that respect there are two phases of this case. One
phase is the phase about whether or not they are obscene ; and even if Your Honor
finds that they are not obscene, I might call Your Honor's attention to another one
which is merely typical of the same one you saw, except it has more to it, and
I am referring to Government's 49. I direct this particular part of the argument
to the conspiracy count, which is count 51.
Of course, we can say this : That as far as intent goes there is no intent ; that it
is not necessary that they intend or that the person who is making the film
intend that they be obscene; so whether or not they are obscene, whether he
intended them to be obscene or not, is not a question so far as the substantive
counts go.
I think we have here a little different question. Certainly the law has never
punished intent alone. So even though they intend them to be obscene, if they
are not in fact obscene, then you have gone beyond that, except in one situation,
and I think the law provides this: that where somebody intends to violate a
law of the United States under section .371, even though they don't accomplish
their intent, if they make some act, whether it be an innocent act or a criminal
act, toward that particular end, they are guilty of the conspiracy.
In that respect I might call Your Honor's attention to these exhibits — and
there are many of them like this — in which it was an advertisement of the films
themselves.
The Court. That was the enclosure in those photographs?
Mr. R^AL. No; this was another one. This was a circular that came out
before.
The Court. Was that the one that starts out with, "I have been a collector
of nude pictures"?
Mr. Real. No. This one starts with "Party films, private films, your films.
These are my latest releases, made for you, just as you would have them for
yourself, showing what you would have shown to be seen by yourself and your
own personal friends," etc. And then they go on to describe the particular
films that Your Honor saw.
I think from that you might conclude that even by their own admission in
their own advertisements that these cannot be established as art films.
The Court. What is o))scene, lewd, lascivious and filthy about calling some-
thing a party film ? That is a film for a party of people.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 359
Mr. Real. I realize that, Your Honor, that it may not be, but after you see the
films you besin to realize that they are not party tilms, and the distribution that
was giA'en to these particular advertisements is not one that would show that
they were distributed for that particular purpose.
I might call your attention to the stipulation in which you might recogiiize the
first 10 counts, these ads went unsolicited to minors and certainly unsolicited to
many people who did not want them. I don't think that you can say that they
are party films in the sense that people would show them at a birthday party
for a 9-year-old child or a birthday party even for a 21-year-old child.
I think that that is on the basis of the conspiracy count and it shows at least
the intent to violate the status, section 1461, These are not made for any other
purpose except to arouse the passions of the person, that is, the sexual passion
of the person.
The Court. And that makes it what?
Mr. Real. Obscene, Your Honor.
The Court. That makes it obscene?
Mr. Real. At least in my estimation what I have considered to be obscene from
the tests that have been provided.
The Court. You mean sex is obscene ?
Mr. Real. Not sex in itself, Your Honor.
The Court. What is it then?
Mr. Real. Under the proper circumstances sex of course is not obscene. It
probably — well, it is the end result of our very existence really.
The Court. And the beginning too.
Mr. Real. And the beginning.
But i think there are ways and means that that is to be actually accomplished
and those ways and means were not shown in these tilms.
The Court. No ; I do not think it w'as shown in these films. I do not think
anything was shown in these films.
Mr. Mathes. If the court please, if the arousing of sex was the intent I would
be glad to submit it on that basis. But as they were being shown I watched the
group here, and I think that was the last thing that anyone was thinking of.
They aren't art, the.v aren't artistic in the least bit; I don't think the come
within any of the tests laid down in the cases under the purview of the statute.
The Court. If the arousing of sex, sexual desires, is to be the test of whether
or not it is obscene, lewd, lascivious and filthy, such pictures as these are in-
comparable compared to scenes in motion picture films
Mr. Real. Yes, Your Honor.
The Court. Where, with a series of events and suggestions and conversation,
and the triangle between a man and a woman, they finally wiud up showing them
going to the bedroom — they do not show anything more — but certainly if that
is the test then I think that the Postmaster General ought to take on all of the
motion picture companies, ought to pick on Life magazine, in which pictures
appear that are absolutely no different from these except these are animated
Mr. Real. And those are highly colored.
The Court. Highly colored, yes, aud they are circulated not only by the
millions of copies in magazines. Life and others, but there must be tens of
millions of pictures that are distributed and find access to a 9-year-old child
and a 21-year-old child so that people do not have to waste their money for
these kind of pictures.
Mr. Real. Your Honor, I think the animation is what makes its obsence,
not the mere showing of a picture.
The Court. It does not make it any more obscene than motion-picture films
where they maybe have more clothes — not much — maybe have more clothing,
but are certainly calculated to do nothing else but to arouse the sexual desires.
If this defendant was up hei'e on a charge of using the mails to defraud on
the ground that he had represented to people that they were going to get some
obscene and lewd pictures and sent them these, I think maybe you might have
a case.
Mr. Mathes. Perhaps a much greater case than at present. Your Honor.
But you don't have the presence of the mail fraud section at al! which might
contribute to coming within the purview of the statute. It is entirely a solo
act and the best you can say of it is it might be a borderline case.
The Court. I do not think it is even a l)orderline case, counsel.
The whole case, in view of the stipulation of facts here, depends upon whether
in the long run the pictures which I have seen, the motion pictures, the still
films and the slides, are lewd, obscene, lascivious, and filthy, and by no means
can I reach that conclusion.
360 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
The matter of what is obsence, lewd, lascivious, and filtliy depends upon the
mores of the times. No doubt there was a time when a picture of any woman
of more than above her ankle, her knees and thigh, was considered indecent
and v.-as considered lascivious. It would not be, I do not think, considered
obscene. But certainly in the past 50 years in the standards by which courts
and everybody else has to do in the abdication of these words of the statute
and the only standards you can go by is what is common and general.
In the oriental countries and in many European countries, but particularly in
the oriental countries, people walk along the street and they think nothing at
all of urinating on the sidewalk or off the sidewalk in the presence of everybody,
or even performing the action of excreta. Here that would be obscence and it
would be filthy. To them it is not.
Now our standards have not gone that far, but certainly the standards in the
United States, which are the current standards, you cannot judge these by the
standards of today when a woman could not show any more of her form than
above her shoetop and could not even show her ankle, but certainly there is
nothing in any of these pictures that I have seen that compares in suggestivity
(if that is the word to be used) of pictures that have appeared in Life maga-
zine, Look magazine, all kinds of art magazines that are for sale by the millions
of copies, or calendars distributed free, post cards, photographs, found every
place in every store, so that now it has become conunonplace. The picture of
a naked woman just does not arouse or attract attention anymore. In fact,
they have to build it up with the kind of advertisements that you have here, so
you think it is going to be something special, in order to get it.
Insofar as these pictures are concerned. I noticed there was not one single
frame of the motion pictures where there was shown the sexual organs of a,
female. In fact, in every pose and posture they seemed to be careful to conceal it.
And insofar as showing the breasts of women, which these pictures mostly
did — of course they have a freak of nature in there in one of them who probably
should have been in a circus, or may be now for all I know — l)ut as far as that
is concerned, if there had been one one-hundredth of an inch more or less on
women's dresses at parties that you and I and Mr. Real and post office inspec-
tors— and no doubt the Postmaster General— see every day, why their breasts
would be ju^t as fully shown as they are here. I refer to one less wire, or stay,
or whatever they call it.
There was nothing in the way of pornography here, which usually goes with
these things that are regarded as obscene, lewd, and lascivious. There was no
sodomy. There was no buggery, which has been shown in films of all kinds
heretofore, and which have been condemned, and which I as a judge have con-
demned, and which everybody condemns because those are obscene, lewd, lasciv-
ious, filthy, and disgusting.
Then so far as these still photographs — well, if there were not more calendars
given away with more of the human form shown and more lewd and suggestive
than these are, and transmitted through the mails, I have not been living for
a long time.
Now insofar as the other standards are concerned, I have no doubt but what
there are people that would consider any picture of a naked women in any pose
as obscene, lewd, lascivious, and filthy, but I do not think that that is the general
standards and concepts of American life, today. The concepts we had years ago
have disappeared because things like that have become commonplace. And cer-
tainly here in this case I have not seen anything that would even justif.v in my
judgment the expense to which the L^nited States has been put up to this moment
in the matter of the prosecution of this case.
I have no doubt but what, in view of the care and meticulous way with vrhich
the record has been taken in connection with the stipulation and in view of the
fact that there has been no oral testimony but that it has resolved itself upon
my judgment, that a record has been made here for the purjKjse of imposing upon
my brethren in the circuit court of appeals an appeal in this case so that they
must sit down and go through the experience which I liave had today looking at
these pictures.
But I cannot be deterred in that and I cannot give consideration to that. I
am bound by my duty here and by every concept that I have. The pictures are
not obscene, they are not lewd, they are not lascivious, and they are not filthy,
and they are a waste of time to look at for anybody.
The judgment of the court is a judgment of not guilty for the defendant. His
bond is exonerated and the defendant is discharged.
(Whereupon, at 3: 55 p. m., court was adjourned.)
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 361
CERTIFICATE
I hereby certify that I am a duly appointed, qualified, and acting official court
rei;orter of the United States District Court for the Southern District of
California.
I further certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the
proceedings liad in the above-entitled cause on the date or dates specified therein,
and that said transcript is a true and correct transcription of my stenographic
notes.
Dated at Los Angeles, Calif., this — day of April A. D. 1954.
, Offlcial Reporter.
In the United States District Court
Southern District of California, Central Division
United States of America, plaintiff, v. Louis Tager, defendant
No. 23340— Criminal
reporter's transcript of proceedings
Los Angeles, Cam., March 29, 1954
A iJiit'd ranees
For the plaintiff: Laughlin E. Waters, United States attorney, Los Angeles 12,
Calif. ; by iManuel Keal. assistant United States attorney.
F(>r the defendant: Caidiii, Bloomgarden & Kaiman, 9441 Wilshire Boulevard,
Beverly Hills, Calif. ; by Stanley R. Caidin, Esq.
Los Angeles, Calif., March 29, 1954, 10 a. m.
The Court. Any ex parte matters?
Mr. Caidin. Your Honor, in the matter of United States v. Ross and Tager,
I represent the defendant Louis Tager and at this time would like to ask
leave of court to withdraw the plea of the defendant Louis Tager of guilty to
counts 1 through 5 of the indictment and count 51, change the plea to not guilty,
and ask that the court at this time dismiss the action as to this defendant.
The Court. He pleaded to all counts, did he not?
Mr. Real. No. Six counts. Your Honor.
The Court. Your motion is to withdraw the plea of guilty heretofore made as
to the six counts?
Mr. Caidin. Y^s, Your Honor, counts 1 through 5 and count 51.
The Court. Is the defendant here?
Mr. Caidin. No, Your Honor, he is not.
The Court. I will not proceed unless he is here. I want to ask him about it.
Mr. Caidin. I will be back then with the defendant, Your Honor.
The Court. Very well.
:f: i^ ^. * * * *
Los Angeles, Calif., March 29, 1954, 2 p. m.,
*******
Mr. Caidin. I have my client in court this afternoon, Your Honor, in the
matter of United States v. Ross and Tager.
The Clerk. Case No. 23340, Your Honor.
Mr. Caidin. We should at this time like to ask leave of court to withdraw
Ihe plea of guilty of Louis Tager to counts 1 through 5 inclusive and count 51
of the indictment and substitute for that plea
The Court. Do you move to withdraw your plea heretofore entered for
the purpose of entering another and different plea?
Mr. Caidin. Yes.
Tlie Court. Is the defendant here?
Mr. Caidin. Yes.
The Court. Come forward.
Y"ou are the defendant Louis Tager?
The Defend.\nt. Yes, Your Honor.
362 JUVENILE DELINQUEXCY
The Court. You have heard the motion of your counsel to withdraw the plea
of guilty and enter another and different plea. Is that your desire?
The Defendant. Yes, sir.
The Court. The motion is granted.
Mr. Real. Your Honor, may I be heard before Your Honor rules on the mo-
tion?
Tlie Court. If he wants to withdraw his plea of giiilty, a defendant may do
that at any time and it is no business of the United States attorney.
Mr. Real. Well, Your Honor, I have a case that says otherwise.
The Court. He can withdraw his plea of guilty. He has not been tried.
Now I will ascertain his plea and on the next move you can be heard on it.
Ascertain the defendant's plea.
The Clerk. What is your plea to count 1 of the indictment?
The Defendant. Not guilty.
The Clerk. And as to all other counts up to and including count 51?
The Defendant. Not guilty.
The Clerk. A plea of not guilty as to all 51 counts, Your Honor.
The Court. Are you ready to set the matter for trial?
Mr. Real. Yes, we are, I'^our Honor.
The Court. I will try it this afternoon after I finish with the rest of my
calendar. You may stand aside.
Mr. Caidin. Your Honor, I have a jury trial in Department 63 of the Superior
Court.
The Court. When?
Mr. Caidin. Right now. They are holding it until 2 : 30.
The Court. I will set it for trial tomorrow morning.
Mr. Caidin. I will be in this jury trial for 2 or 3 days.
The Court. How long will it take to try? It is liable not to take very long,
is it not?
Mr. Real. It depends on whether or not we are going to stipulate to this also,
Your Honor, whether or not it is going to be tried by stipulation.
The CoLTiT. I will try it right now. if you are willing to stipulate that the
stipulation filed in the case as to the defendant Ross may be stipulated to and that
all of the evidence introduced in that case in behalf of the Government may be
deemed to be introduced in this case. Is that your stipulation?
Mr. Real. That wasn't my stipulation. I thought we might go through the
trial.
The Court. You mean listen to this all over again?
Mr. Real. At least the stipulation and possibly go through part of it again.
The Court. You mean show some of those same pictures over again?
Mr. Real. Very possible.
The Court. I understood the defendants were up for punishment, not the
judges.
What do you not want to stipulate to?
Mr. Real. We will stipulate to all the facts of the case, Your Honor, it is just
that we want to go through the trial.
The Court. You mean you want to show those pictures over again?
Mr. Real. If Your Honor wants to see them.
The Court. I do not want to see them. Is there anything different about them
than there was before last week?
Mr. Real. No ; there isn't.
The Court. Are you willing to accept the stipulation?
Mr. Caidin. I would like to stipulate that the pictures heretofore introduced
be deemed to be introduced at the trial of the defendant Louis Tager and that
this case be disposed of on the same evidence.
The Court. That all of the evidence introduced on behalf of the Government be
reintroduced ?
Mr. Caidin. That is correct.
The Court. Will you stipulate to that?
Mr. Real. I can't do that. Your Honor.
The Court. Do you have additional evidence?
INIr. Real. No, but my instructions are not to do that.
The Court. Not to do that? Do you offer it all in evidence?
Mr. Real. We will offer it in evidence. I have it upstairs.
The Court. Will you stipulate that they may be deemed to be in evidence?
Mr. Real. As soon as I bring them down, Your Honor. I can't do that when
they are up in my office.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 363
The Court. These are the same pictures that I saw last week?
Mr. Real. They are, Your Honor. , . ., . t ,
The Court. And you are under instructions not to stipulate that I have seen
them once ? .,,-,■ ^ -, ^
Mr. Rkal. That this case may be tried on the evidence already introduced.
The Court. Your instructions are not to do that?
Mr. Real. That is correct, Your Honor.
The Court. And what other evidence do you have?
Mr Real. We have none other than that, but we want to go through this
evidence in this trial. We will make the stipulation and we will set up, you
might say, the record.
The Court. Set up the record?
Mr. Real. Yes.
The Court. That stipulation sets up the record for you now.
Mr. Real. We have no objection to it being continued until Mr. Caidm can
come over here again. ^ -, , 4. ^.u ^
The Court. If your only purpose in continuing it is to compel me to look at tnose
horrible pictures again— or are you going to demand a jury trial?
Mr. Real. No ; we are not.
The Court. Do you waive a jury trial?
Mr. Caidin. Ye.s; we waive a jury trial.
The Court. You had better file a written waiver, then.
You say you have to be in the superior court?
Mr. Caidin. Yes. Your Honor. I could be back here probably at 4 :lo.
The Court. I will hold the matter on the calendar this afternoon.
Mr. Caidin. Thank you. Your Honor.
*******
The Court. Are you ready for trial?
Mr. Real. We are not.
The Coui;T. \Miere are your motion picture operators?
Mr. Reai.. They are upstairs.
Tl?e Court. Get them down here. I am gointr to try this case if it take until
midnight. I will set it for trial beginning at 9 ox-lock tonight if you insist on
trying it.
Mr. Real. There are my instructions. Your Honor.
The Court. Very well.
We will have a short recess.
(Short recess.)
The Court. The motion was granted to vacate the plea of guilty and this
matter was continued until this time for trial. Has the jury waiver been
signed?
Mr. Caidin. No, Your Honor.
The Court. It must be signed by Government counsel as well,
air. Real. Your Honor, in that case the Government is not prepared to go to
trial for the reason that we felt that the motion that was served on us on the
24th of March, 1954, should not have been granted because Mr. Tager entered
liis plea voluntarily and freely. There was no surprise or inadvertence or any
mistake in the entry of the plea. He was represented by adequate counsel, and
under the case of Friedman v. United States (200 F. (2d), p. 690), the motion
should not have been granted.
We are not ready to go to trial. We do not have our witnesses here. They
are witnesses that would have to come from all over the country and therefore
we are not prepared to go to trial at this time. Your Honor.
The Court. Is the jury waiver signed?
Mr. Rk.\l. I have here a jury waiver signed by the defendant Tager and by
his counsel Stanley Caidin and by myself on the part of the Government.
The Court. It will be approved by the court.
Do you consent to a waiver of jury, Mr. Tager?
The Defendant. Yes ; I do, Your Honor.
The Court. You have heard the statement of Government counsel, Mr. Caidin.
Are you ready for trial?
Mr. Caidin. Yes, Your Honor. We will stipulate that all of the material here-
tofore introduced in this action on March 23, 1954, was sent through the mails by
Mr. Tager.
The Court. Will you accept the stipulation in writing which was filed on the
trial of the defendant Ross?
65263—55 24
364 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Caidin. Yes, Your Honor. We accept that stipulation.
The Court. Would you accept that stipulation, Mr. Real?
Mr. Real. Your Honor, I cannot do that at this time.
The Court. You mean the Government expects to bring all these witnesses
here on all these accounts rather than to accept the admission by the defendant in
this stipulation?
Mr. Real. That is our position at the present time, Your Honor.
The Court. Do you also offer to stipulate that all of the exhibits which were
put in eA'idence — as I recall, there was no oral testimony
:\Ir. Real. That is correct.
The Court. All the exhibits that were put in evidence in the case of United
States V. Ross may be deemed to have been admitted in evidence against this
defendant ?
My. Caidin. Yes, sir.
The Court. You offer to make that stipulation?
Mr. Caidin. Yes, Your Honor. And I hereby expressly agree to that stipu-
lation.
The Court. Well, counsel, there seems to me to be nothing else to prove. The
stipulation in evidence here agrees to all of the allegations of the indictment con-
cerning the mailing, the contents of mailing, and counsel here has agreed that
all of the pictures and other material wliich were introduced in evidence may
be introduced in evidence against his client in this case.
I have seen them once. I have seen them sufficiently recently that I am quite
sure that I would see nothing different in them if I looked at them again, and
for that reason I can see no reason why the Government should not proceed to
trial forthwith hecau.se the trial could be over immediately.
Mr. Real. Y'our Honor, it is the feeling of the Government that the Government
has a right to have Your Honor hear the witnesses in the case and hear their
testimony.
The Court. Hear their testimony?
I\Ir. Real. That is correct.
The Court. Even though they stipulate that everything was done?
Mr. Real. That is correct. Your Honor.
The Court. Well, I think it is quite an unusual attitude on the part of the
Government in view of the many trials that are set. The defendant admits that
he did all of the things that he is charged with doing here, and under the previous
trial the whole question of whether or not they are lewd, lascivious, obscene,
and filthy, and I held that they were not.
If the Government is not ready for trial, the case will be dismissed for lack of
prosecution. The defendant is discharged and his bond is exonerated.
Court is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4: 20 p. m., court was adjourned.)
certificate
I hereby certify that I am a duly appointed, qualified, and acting official court
reporter of the United States District Court for the Southern District of
California.
I further certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the pro-
ceedings had in the above-entitled cause on the date or dates specified therein,
and that said transcript is a true and correct transcription of my steno-
graphic notes.
Dated at Los Angeles, Calif., this — day of April A. D. 1954.
, Official Reporter.
]Mr. BoBO. In the operation of tliese bnsinesses by Ross and Tager,
on a post-office investigation of them where they are constantly chang-
ing names and addresses, what is the difficulty that the Post Office
Department faces in that, Mr. Stapenhorst?
]Mr. Stapenhorst. That many of the addresses used by these people
we find that someone has come in and rented the privilege of receiving
mail and paid a fee which ranges all the way from $2 or $3 a month
to in some cases $25 a month. The operators of these secretarial
services outside of Los Angeles are frequently not very careful in
obtaining the true name, and a good address for the person who is
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 365
iisino- a fictitioiis name at the secretarial service. We frequently find
that tliere is no such address, and if there is such an address, that
it is a motel Avhere the renter of the privilege may have stayed 1 night
3 months before, and similar circumstances.
Mr. BoBO. In other words, if you get a fictitious order out against
the XYZ company, by the time you can move in and either stop the
mail or return the mail to where it is coming from, their mail will
be going over to anotlier address ?
3Ir. Stapenhorst. Tliat is correct. Mrs. Tager described rather
clearly the plan of operation of some of these operators. It is to mail
anywhere from 3,000 to 20,000 letters, perhaps; receive the orders at
the mail receiving privilege or through the post office box for a period
of 10 days or 2 weeks. At the end of that time, fill the orders, and
])Ossibly 'within a few days the person using that fictitious name is
informed that his mail is being held from delivery and he should
appear before some official in the post office to establish his identity.
Now, one of the difficulties post office inspectors have had continuously
with these operations is that we may receive a complaint 2 or 3 days
after the mailing has been made. The inspector may promptly place
an order for the merchandise, suspecting that it is obscene. He does
not receive the merchandise until the operator takes it upon himself
or herself to fil the orders received. After the inspector has received
tlie merchandise, the operator has received the bulk of his orders and
frequently has no interest in the 12 to 50 pieces of mail which arrive
after the mail addressed to that fictitious name is held up.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Stapenhorst, you stated that Mrs. Tager's testimony
relative to that particular thing was rather clear and adequately de-
scribed it. In your familiarity in reading the file of the Ross-Tager
operation, would you say that basically the story which she told of
this operation as revealed by 3'Our investigation was substantially
correct ?
]Mr. Stapexhorst. ]My knowledge of the Roy J. Ross and Louis
Tager and Dorothy Tager operations is rather sketchy. I was not
in the area very much at the time, and my information about her
operations is iiot very complete.
Mr. BoBO. Were you familiar with the cease and desist order that
was gotten against the Post Office Department, or were you familiar
with the details in the Las Vegas and the Phoenix and the Tucson
cases, where Mrs. Tager had difficulty in having her mail released to
her ?
Mr. Stapexhorst. No, sir, I was not.
]Mr. BoBO. Mr. Stapenhorst, do you have any suggestions as to how
the fictitious order could be improved, where the post office inspectors
could descend upon these people in a more rapid fashion?
]Mr. Stapexhorst. I would strongly recommend that the Congress
consider legislation authorizing the Postmaster General to order the
impounding of mail addressed to a person, firm, corporation or part-
nershi]) which is suspected of dealing in matter which may be in vio-
tion of law. The mail would be impounded, pending a proper hear-
ing. If the hearing established that the business was legal and not
in violation of any law, the operator could have his mail. If it was
established that the business was in violation of law, the mail would
then be returned to senders by the postmaster, suitably endorsed.
366 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr, BoBO. Ill the Hollywood and the California area, the district
covered by the Los Angeles office, is the volume or the number of
people engaged in this business of selling nude photos and nude
tilms — what would you say the extent of that operation is in this
area ?
Mr. Stapeniiorst. Well, there may be deposited in the mails each
day anywhere from a thousand to four or five thousand, perhaps
more than that numbers of letters addressed to prospective customers.
As to the dollar volume, as to the total number of incoming orders
every day, there are scores of operators, large and small, in these
businesses, and I would have no way of knowing.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any approximation ^ Have you ever worked
on a case that would give you an idea as to the volume of business
which an operator might do?
Mr. Stapeniiokst. 1 am aware that at times, day after day or
evening after evening, Rov J. Ross and Louis Tager would deposit
for dispatch 30,000, 40,000, and 50,000 letters a day. There is a
statement somewhere in the record that on one day 100,000 first-class
letters were mailed to prospective clients.
I have also seen large quantities of the outgoing parcels mailed by
Roy J. Ross and Louis Tager at the Van Nuys Post Office.
Mr. BoBo. From the complaints that the Post Office Department
received in Los Angeles and of the complaints with which you have
knowledge, what is the extent of the business ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. You mean in
Mr. BoBO. In relation to juveniles or in relation to any other
person, people complaining that this material was sent to them from
the Los Angeles area.
Mr. Stapenhorst. The business seems to maintain more or less
of a level. I would doubt that at the present time all the dealers in
obscene matter are mailing thirty to fifty thousand letters a day as
Roy J. Ross was doing himself at one time. Other than that, I know
there are scores of operators in this area, as revealed by the ads in
the so-called girlie magazines.
Mr. BoBO. We have received a number of complaints in our office
in Washington of the Male Merchandise Mart. Have you done any
investigation on that particular case?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Yes, I have.
Oh, do you wish some details on the extent of the operation?
Mr. BoBO. Yes.
Mr. Stapenhorst. In February 1954, the Postmaster General
received hundreds of complaints concerning the Male Merchandise
Mart. On March 1, 1954, the Postmaster General
Mr. Bono. Where is this Male Merchandise Mart?
Mr. Stapenhorst. INIale Merchandise Mart has an office and pack-
ing room at 8627 Melrose Avenue, Los Angeles 46, Calif.
The records of the county clerk of Los Angeles County reveal
that the owner of the firm is V. E. Stanard. V. E. Stanard is known
to me as Violet Evelyn Alberts, the wife of David Stephen xllberts,
a man who has been convicted in both the State and Federal courts
on charges of dealing in or mailing obscene matter.
Mr. BoBO. What type of obscene matter has that operation, the
Alberts operation, been, Mr. Stapenhorst?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 367
]Mr. Stapenhorst. In March 1954 the mail was impounded upon
order of the Federal judge. In August 1954 it was released to the
plaintiff after a civil action had been filed and heard, because the
evidence before the court consisted only of the advertising.
Before me I have a recently mailed circular of Male Merchandise
Mart, and the circular starts out at the top :
Banned by Bigots Who Can't Stand the Meaning of the Word "Sex," but
Available to You if You Hurry
The Male Merchandise Mart firmly believes that mature men of clean minds
are entitled to choose their own literature. We have waged a relentless war
against prudes and self-appointed censors who would keep these fascinating and
enlightening books from you.
Note. — We make every possible effort to prevent these books from reaching
young people or persons who would use them for the fulfillment of indecent
desires.
At this point I woidd like to make an observation. Some years
ago I inade approximately 25 test purchases from David S. Alberts
and from some of the firm names he was using at that time. I say
under oath, and I could produce the records to prove it, that on
evei-y single one of the orders I sent to David S. Alberts I did not
put anything in the space which called for the customer's age.
Inside the circular are described 26 books on every angle of sex.
Some of the titles are :
Aphrodisiacs and Anti- Aphrodisiacs : Subtle, unusual methods of stimulating
sex interest in yourself and your mate.
The History of Flagellation: Strange, lurid cases of men and women sub-
mitting to lash and fang for sex gratification. McCabe. $1.
Bestiality and the Law : The shocking prevalence of sexual relations between
humans and animals. Niemoeller. 55 cents.
Be'Jtiality in Ancient and Modern Times: Shameful revelation of why some
women must have male animals under their roofs. Niemoeller. 55 cents.
What Is a Hermaphrodite?
Why ]\Iales Wear Female Attire.
Magical Secrets of Love : Sexual witchcraft.
William Heirens, Notorious Sex Maniac : Case histories of lust-crimes and
their perpetrators. Cauldwell. 55 cents.
Petting as an Erotic Exercise : Precoital techniques among the unmarried and
wedded discussed.
Revelations of a Sexologist.
Private Letters From Homosexuals to a Doctor.
The Intimate Embrace : Scientific discourse on the various positions of em-
brace. A recommended study for husband and wife. Cauldwell. 55 cents.
So much for the books on every angle of sex.
Ave ordinary novels too tame for you? Here's exciting, intimate reading that
gives you that thrill !
PocKET-SizE Editions, 15 Cents Each. Minimum Order, $1
Curious and Unusual Love Affairs.
Confessions of a Minister's Daughter.
Amorous Tales of the Monks.
The Love Affairs of a Priest and a Nun.
The Prostitute and Her Lover.
Art of Intimacy in Marriage.
All for 15 cents, mind you. Minimum order $1.
Then they have Sex in Prison, Wild French Cartoons, The Flimsey
Eeport, and French Love Stories.
368 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Rare Specials. — These are full-length unabridged hardcover books, that have
been ordered out of print in this edition. Each one is a "must" for your very-
private collection. $2 each :
Naughty Bedtime Books.
Bedroom With a View.
There are 2 for $1, 5 for $2, or all 9 books for only $3 :
Bed Time Girl.
Brutal Kisses.
Come Night, Come Desire.
Everybody Loves Irene.
Four Dames Named Sin.
Chairman Kefau\ter. We will make that an exhibit to your testi-
mony, Mr, Stapenhorst,
(The circular referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 36," and is on
file with the subcommittee. )
Chairman Kefauver. Go ahead, sir.
jMr. Stapenhokst. On the circular which accompanies the one
printed in black on yellow paper is an announcement :
Men . . . Let's Face It !
There's a lot of "sock" that can be gotten from adult items dealing with our
favorite subject . . . sex. But you've got to play by the rules, and that is restrict
these items for adult vise only. We can bring you these hard-to-get, genuine
private stag items if you keep your pledge.
Among the items sold are :
Wow ! Wolf Deck ! ! Sold to adults only !
$3.50 deck, 2 for $6.
A pack of beauty.
Art slides in natural color.
Bod.v in art.
Peep show.
Real old-time cartoon booklets. A whole flock of 'em for $2 — and a flock of
"rare enjoyment" in every one !
Just the kind that dad used to carry around in his vest pocket and show the
gang at the Saturday night poker session. They are rich !
All new and good — a big assortment, $2.
Beauty in Bondage : Whose heart would not thrill in pity at the poor, helpless,
cruelly gagged and bound young creatures, completely at the mercy of their
brutal captors.
Marilyn Monroe playing cards, $3 per deck. Special : Both decks, $5.50.
Banned before — now available for first time !
Banned from the mails as lewd . . . now, a special court ruling makes this
great nude available to you for the first time. "Her nude, not lewd." says
the judge !
Chairman Kefau^t.r. We will make that an exhibit to your testi-
mony, too.
(The announcement referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 37," and
is on file with the subcommittee.)
Mr. BoBo. Along: that same line, Mr. Stapenhorst, may 1 inter-
ject
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Stapenhorst, I was interested in
one picture here that we have had a lot of testimony about. That
is this bondage testimony, Tina's Torture. We have had testimony
of psychiatrists that these bondage pictures have a very deleterious
effect upon young people. You didn't mention that one. That is
one of the ones up here [indicating]. What does that say?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 369
Mr. Stapenhorst. (Reading) :
Tina's Torture is advertised :
"Best bondage serial ever made."
Read what liappeiis wlien a beautiful female spy captures Tina, inucx'eut
young daughter of a brilliant scientist, and attemp-ts to force a secret formula
from her sweet lips.
What terrors await Tina in the secret dungeons?
llna couldn't understand why she was bound so strangely until her evil
tormentor called in the assistant. How could Tiaa know why the French maid
trembled eagerly as Tina's body heaved with painV
Does Tina reveal her father's secret? We couldn't blame Tina if she did
when one bondage and torture device after another subjected her to humiliation
and pain.
You'll find all the answers graphically illustrated and fired with imagination
in this amazing new series.
Episodes Nos. 1 and 2 are now ready. $3 per episode ; $5 special.
Both episodes Nos. 1 and 2 (6 sensational scenes), each episode on 8 by 10
glossy photo.
Final 18 chapters of Tina's Torture are now ready. Special price for all 20
chapters is only $18 if bought at one time ; 10 chapters for $12, 3 chapters for $5.
Mr. BoBO. I would like to interject just a moment, if I might, Mr.
Stapenhorst, that the subcommittee answered a number of ads that
appeared in magazines on stationery in a very scrawled hand; the
stationery being headed "Eastern High School, Washington, D. C."
We signed these with the names of "'Claude Marvin" and "Peter
Kicholas,'" represent the first names of two staff members of the sub-
committee. We received an answer from the Male Merchandise Mart
containing exactly the material which you have described there.
Chairman KErAU\T:R. Let this be filed as an exhibit.
(The material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 38," and is on
file with the subcommittee.)
Chairman Kefauver. You mean that it was written on the letter-
liead of Eastern High School ?
Mr. Bono. Yes, sir; on student stationery with "Eastern High
School" on the head of it.
Chairman Kefauver. And you got back the same material ?
Mr. BoBO. Exactly the same.
Chairman Kefauver. The same material that Mr. Stapenhorst has
been describing. All right.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Stapenhorst, have you done any survey or received
any data relative to the volume of business that was done by the Al-
berts operation?
Mr. Stapenhorst. In March and April of this year a count was kept
of the number of pieces of mail which were delivered to Mrs. V. E.
Standard and her husband, David S. Alberts, at the west branch of
the Los Angeles post office. This count did not include in the totals
the number of letters which were returned to the sender, which some-
times ranged up to two or three hundred pieces a day. The volume
ran from 497 to 1,033 letters a day addressed to Male Merchandise
Mart, Stag Shop; various other enterprises operated by David S.
Alberts and his wife ; for an average of 696 letters per day over a 7-
day period.
I have no information concerning the volume at the present time, but
I would assume that it is about the same, possibly a little greater, a
little less.
370 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any information or have you received any
ijiformation as to the amount of postage that might have been used by
the companies which the Alberts operated ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. In September 1954, Mrs. V. E. Standard had
$4,000 worth of postage placed in the postage meter used by her. In
(3ctober, $6,000; in November, $2,000; and in December, $7,000. All
these settings are after the August 1954 court decision which released
the mail to the Male Merchandise Mart.
In February, $4,000 was spent ; in March, $3,500 ; in April, $2,000 ;
and in May, $1,500.
Chairman Kefauver. Are they still operating ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. They are still operating.
Chairman Kefau^'er. You described Tina's Torture. Here are
some of the pictures from it. Is that what jou were talking about,
Mr. Stapenhorst?
Mr. Stapekiiorst. Yes. Those are the serial described in the adver-
tising of Male Merchandise Mart.
Chairman Kefauver. "^^Hiipping, torture, beatings, is that correct?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Stretching.
Chairman I^fau\^r. Now, you say Mr. Alberts has a criminal
record ?
Mr. Stapenhorst, Yes. David S. Alberts was arrested on Novem-
ber 14, 1949, by Los Angeles police officers, and in June 1950, he was
found to be guilty as charged, violations of the State law. He was
sentenced to 180 days in jail on condition that he serve 60 of them.
He was placed on j^robation for 3 years and fined $500.
In February 1951, upon presenting proper evidence before a judge
and with the support of his probation officer, that he was not in any
improper business, the State of California probation was lifted.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, he was in business at that time, wasn't
he?
Mr. Stapenhorst. It is my own observation and opinion that Al-
berts was at that time laying low. The only operation with which I
am familiar was a business operated by himself and his wife which
involved the sale of novelties, none of which an ordinary person would
consider obscene.
Chairman Kefauver. How many other operators like that are there
around here ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. There may be 20, there may be 100. It would be
hard to guess.
Chairman Kefauver. Somewhere between 20 and 100?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Somewhere between 20 and 100.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. All about the same type of business ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. All about the same type. I do believe that at
the present time the business of V. E. Stanard and David S. Alberts
may be the greatest in the southern California area.
Chairman Kefauver. Alberts has just been convicted again, hasn't
he?
Mr. Stapenhorst. That is correct. He was arrested late in Febru-
ary or early in March 1955, at his place of business, as was his wife,
Mrs. Violet Evelyn Alberts ; and before a judge in the municipal court
for the Beverly Plills judicial district he was found guilty of violating
two counts of the State law regarding possessing and advertising ob-
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 371
scene matter on June 10. He is to come up for sentence on the 24th
of June, according to the information I have.
Chairman Kefaumsr. Mr. Stapenhorst, I am interested, in this Ross
case, wliere the man pled guilty and then changed his plea and the
Government didn't have time to present its case. Is it not true that
Mr. Morris La vine was his attorney at the time he pled guilty ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. I do not recall the name of Louis Tager's at-
torney.
Chairman Kefau^t:r. I mean Mr. Tager's tittorney.
]Mr. Stapenhorst. At the time he pled guilty, Louis Tager's.
Chairman Kefau\"er. Well, anyway, his attorney saw the films and
what not, and after seeing them advised his client to plead quilty,
which he did.
Mr. Stapenhorst. I believe that is obvious.
Chairman Kefau\'er. And then when the other man was let off,
when Eoss was let olf, he discharged his attorney and changed liis
mind and got another attorney and pled not guilty, and the judge
threw the case out. Is that correct ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. That is correct, I believe.
Chairman KErAu\TER. Do you know the names of either of the
attorneys ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. The attorney for Roy J. Ross was Mr. Burke
Mathes.
Chairman Kefaiiver. And who was Mr. Tager's attorney ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. I can't recall at the moment who was Mr. Tager's
attorney on that March 29, 1954, date.
Chairman Kefauver. Your testimony has been very useful, sir, and
we think from you we have gotten the fullest possible picture of what
is going on in this section of the United States. Our staff has esti-
mated that this general type of business has grossed from $300 million
to $350 million a year in the country. When that figure was stated
and released, there was a lot of discounting of it. It was hard for
me to believe that a business of this kind could be so extensive, but
what you have shown here indicates that that ma}^ have been a con-
servative estimate of the gross business in the Nation.
What would you think about it ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Well, I operate in one of the largest centers for
the distribution of pornographic material, indecent, obscene moving
pictures, films, cartoon books, and so forth. I do not have too much
familiarity with the volume of business in and around New York
City, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, San Francisco ; other metropolitan
centers ; but I feel that the extent of the business is something which
the people who are in it are anxious to hide because of the fact that
knowing how lucrative the business is, others will be tempted to get
into it, and the more competitors the less business there may be for all.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, we appreciate your cooperation very
much with our committee, Mr. Stapenhorst.
Mr. Stapenhorst. If I may. Senator
Chairman Kefau\'fr. Do you have anything else you would like
to tell us about ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. Yes. I would like to read 2 of 3 typical com-
plaints out of about 120 which were received by me in the 3-week
period.
Chairman Kefauver. Yes; I wish you would read them.
372 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Stapenhorst. May I retain these ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes.
Mr. Stapenhorst. Or may they become exhibits ? I would rather
retain them and not reveal the identity of the comphxinants and
addressees.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. Yon can retain them, but read
the substance of them.
^Ir. Stapenhorst. Attached for what action deemed advisable is a
letter dated January 26, 1955, addressed to Mr. Jim Brennan, Colum-
bus City, Ind., bearing the return address of Male Merchandise Mart.
It w^as turned over to the inspector's office by local United States
attorneys who stated that the addressee is a juvenile and the letter
liad been received from a juvenile's father.
May I have the name "of the addressee stricken from the record ?
Chairman Kefauver. Yes. The names of the people vvdio sent in
the complaints, do not read.
Mr. Stapenhorst. This is addressed to the Post Office Inspector in
charge of Philadelphia, Pa., by the Postmaster at Flemington, N. J.
The enclosed literature considered obscene was turned over to this
office by the county detective, Hunterdon County, Flemington, N. J.
Addressee is a young boy, and his mother delivered the literature
to the authorities for investigation.
This is also to the inspector in charge at Philadelphia from the
Postmaster at Xewfield. The mother of the addressee has asked the
I*ost Office Department to check into the enclosed mail that was sent
to her son, who was only 15 years of age. She contends that it is
indecent and that it was not solicited by her son.
This is a letter from the postmaster in New Jersey. A doctor in
Westfield, X. J., requested that I send the enclosed letter to you for
investigation. The letter was addressed to and opened by his 12-
year-old daughter, who claims she did not send for the information.
These are a few of the reasons post office inspectors are so zealous
in attempting to keep this pornography from the hands of the juve-
niles.
Chairman Kefauver. Are those typical of letters about teenagers or
from their parents that you have gotten all over the United States?
]\[r. Stapenhorst. Those are typical of the scores and hundreds of
complaints which inspectors all over the United States received. I
might mention that
Chairman Kefauver. And the police here in Los Angeles received
the same complaints, too?
Mr. Stapenhorst. The police in Los Angeles and the sheriff and
the Los Angeles County district attorne}^ receive the same type of
complaints. Sometimes in some numbers.
Chairman Kefauver. And there is really no effort in this industry,
or whatever you call it, to — they want to get orders from anybody,
whether they are kids or whether than are grownups ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. That is my impression.
Chairman Kefauver. It seems to be well founded.
All right, sir. You go on, Mr. Stapenhorst.
Mr. Stapenhorst. t might mention that after quite an extensive
investigation by other inspectors and myself, reports were submitted
to the United States attorney in Los Angeles in February, May, July,
and December 1949, with evidence concerning the use of the mails by
JUVENILE DELmQUENCY 373
David S. Alberts, who is the husband of the woman who operates Male
Merchandise Mart. After — the United States attorney frankly-
wished to wait until the conclusion of the State action against David
S. Alberts, and that was concluded in June 1950.
So in October 1950, a Federal grand jury had no hesitation about
indicting him for mailing obscene matter oi- information telling where,
iiow, and from whom it miglit be obtained, seven counts.
In December 1950. David S. Alberts pleaded guilty to two counts
and he was fined $100 on each count in the Los Angeles Federal court.
Chairman Kefauver. $100 ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. $100 on each count.
Chairman Kefauver. That is liable to put him out of business,
isn't it ?
So, so often they just pay their little fines as operating costs as a
license to do business?
Mr. Stapenhorst. That is correct.
Chairman KEFA\njER. And go right on ?
Mr. Stapenhorst. And in many instances a very inexpensive
license.
I would like to introduce into the record as an exhibit a page from
the Postal Bulletin of March IT, 1955, which contains in the right-
hand column a three-paragraph notice to postmasters about Post-
master General Arthur E. Summerfield's clean-up-the-mail campaign.
Chairman Kefauver. We are glad to receive that as an exhibit.
( The bulletin referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 39," and is as
follows : )
Exhibit No. 39
[From the Postal Bulletin, March 17, 1955]
"Clean-Up-the-Mails" Campaign
On March 17, 1955, Postmaster General Arthur E. Summerfield statetl in press
release No. 63 that "A growing' volume of unwanted lewd and obscene matter is
being sent through the mails into American homes, and the Post Office Department
is intensifying its 'Clean-Up-the-Mails' efforts to stop this offense against common
decency."
Mr. Summerfield further announced "Citizens who wish to help the Post Office
Department in its 'Clean-Up-the-Mails' campaign can do so by delivering, to their
local postmaster, any material received through the mails which they consider
obscene."
Postmasters are instructed to forward such material to the post office inspector
in charge of the division in which the office of mailing is located.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else, Mr. Stapenhorst?
Mr. Stapenhorst. That is all, I believe.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, sir.
Well, we have some other witnesses here we are not going to get to
hear today, but we do want to hear some others. I think at this time,
though, we will have to take a break for a short hmch. Suppose we
recess now and try to get started again at 15 minutes after 2.
"We will stand in recess until 15 minutes after 2.
(Whereupon, at 1:10 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:15 p. m. of
the same day.)
afternoon session
(Whereupon the hearing was resumed at 2: 15 p. m.)
Chairman Kefauver. The subcommittee will come to order.
Wlio will be our next witness, Mr. Bobo ?
374 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBo. ]\Ir. David S. Alberts.
Mrs. V. E. Alberts. Mr. Alberts will be here in just one moment.
He is on his way.
Chairman Kefau^^ek. Who are you ?
Mrs. Alberts. Mrs. Alberts.
Chairman Kefauvee. You are Mrs. Alberts ?
Mrs. Alberts. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. All right. He will be here shortly ?
Mrs. Alberts. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Barnes. Will Mr. Barnes come around ?
How are 3- ou, Mr. Barnes ? We are glad to see you.
All right, Mr. Bobo.
TESTIMONY OF PHILLIP I. BAENES, POLICE OFEICEE, CITY OF LOS
ANGELES, ATTACHED TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE VICE DIVISON,
PORNOGRAPHIC DETAIL
Mr. BoBo. Mr. Barnes, would you state your name, your address,
and your position for the record, please?
Mr. Barnes. My name is Phillip I. Barnes. My business address is
1337 Georgia Street. I am a police officer for the city of Los Angeles,
attached to the administrative vice division, the pornographic detail.
Mr. BoBO. How long have you been connected with the pornographic
detail ?
Mr. Barnes. For the past 18 months.
Mr. BoBO. AVould you speak up just a little louder. Pull the niicro-
I^hone closer to you.
Mr. Barnes. For the past 18 months.
Mr. BoBO. Attached to the pornographic detail of the police depart-
ment, it is your duty to investigate cases involving the sale of porno-
graphic literature within the city of Los Angeles ?
Mr. Barnes. That is true.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Barnes, in your capacity as a policeman and in
dealing with pornographic literature, have you ever discovered that
pornographic literature gets into the hands of those of juvenile age?
Mr. Barnes. I have.
Mr. BoBo. What type of pornographic literature have you found
prevalent ?
Mr. Barnes. Pornographic literature of all forms; written, photo-
graphic, statues, and so forth.
JSIr. BoBO. What are the ages of some of the children that you have
found pornographic literature in the possession of ?
Mr. Barnes. The youngest that I recall was 10 years old. .
Mr, BoBO. Ten years old ?
Mr. Barnes. Yes sir.
Mr. BoBO. In the investigation of cases involving pornographic
literature, what is the type that is most prevalent in the hands of
those of juvenile age?
Mr. Barnes. I would say the most prevalent would be the type
known to us, or in the language of the people who deal in it, as the
Tijuana Bible, which is a small booklet about 2 by 3 inches, of a car-
toon type, that is very lewd and very obscene in its character.
Mr. BoBO. It shows all types of sexual perversions?
Mr. Barnes. Yes ; it does.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 375
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever developed any cases involving juveniles
where lewd photographic film, movie film, was involved ?
Mr. Barnes. Yes ; I have.
Mr. BoBO. Would you tell us somewhat of the extent of the traffic in
pornographic film, as well as stills and booklets ?
Mr. Barnes. It would be better for me to describe first what I term
as true pornography. There are basically two types of pornography
we find here in Los Angeles. One, the true pornography which is of
a very lewd and obscene type that it is easily discernible and without
question lewd. The second is the gray matter that falls into the cate-
gory of that which was just brought before the committee at the
morning session.
In Los Angeles in the past 18 months, through the investigations
that have been conducted by myself and the officers with my squad,
the true pornography type has not been prevalent to the point where
it is a problem. To that end, I mean that it is not readily sold on
the streets or in bookstores and so on, as might be alleged.
However, the pornographic material such as was described earlier
this morning is prevalent. That is a problem to us. It is a problem
to us to this extent : Each and every case that is brought to our attention
in the form of complaint is carefully analyzed and investigated. The
results of this investigation are presented to the office of the city
attorney or the office of the district attorney for the application of a
complaint or for the application of obtaining a searcli warrant. If
such complaint is forthcoming or if such warrant is forthcoming, then
the actions that follow are quite clear. We make the arrest and pre-
sent the same facts to the court. If the complaint is refused, we are
stopped at its onset. Many times we have been refused complaints for
this type of literature, particularly in obtaining search warrants,
because it was felt by the courts and by the office of the city attorney
that it is an interpretive fact ; that if you believe what you are reading
in the brochure, then you believe that there is pornographic literature
awaiting you at the other end ; that if you believe that the literature
in the brochure is not true, then you will find that which would be con-
strued legal at the other end. So therefore we have been very unsuc-
cessful in prosecuting complaints of this nature.
The type of pornographic material of the true pornographic type,
there has never been any problem whatsoever in prosecuting and
getting convictions. The courts have been lenient in the type of
sentences or fines that are dealt to the defendants in these cases.
Mr. BoBO. What is the usual fine in a case involving true por-
nographic literature ?
5lr. Barnes. I would say that the average is a suspended jail sen-
tence and a fine of roughly $150.
Mr. Bobo. Have you ever known of any pornographic film or
pornographic pictures or pornographic books displaying pictures
displaying those of juvenile ages in the poses for pornographic lit-
erature ?
Mr. Barnes. Yes ; I have, sir. We had one such case fairly recently
involving a husband and wife, a man in Hollywood who was titled
a producer of motion pictures and scripts for motion pictures. In
this particular case there were two juveniles. One was a girl 16 and
one a girl 17. All of the participants in this case were prosecuted,
Avitli the exception of the photograplier, who was in residence in
376 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Hawaii. We did obtain a warrant for her arrest, and that warrant
was presented to the Honohilu Police Department in certified form, but
extradition was not granted and the person is not prosecuted as of
this date.
Mr. BoBO. AYere these movie fihns you are talking about or still
photos ?
Mr. Barnes. These were o-D still photos, color.
Mr. BoBO. They showed the persons in indecent acts?
Mr. Barnes. Acts of sexual perversion between men and women,
women and women, and men and men.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, were some of them convicted?
Mr. Barnes. They were all convicted.
Chairman Kefauver. Since they have been convicted, give us their
names and addresses.
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Paul George Horner, 5253 Fountain Avenue. I
note that that address might be incorrect. It might be 6253 instead
of 52.
Mr. Jack Eichard Massey, 125 West Acacia Street, Glendale.
Mrs. Mildred Frances Massey, of the same address.
The warrant was obtained for a Mrs. Frederick Rackel, of Hono-
lulu, T. H.
Each of the people mentioned was specifically charged with acts
of sexual perversion, citing 3 counts in the case of Mr. Horner, 1
count in the case of Jack Massey, 3 counts in the case of Mildred
Massey, and 5 counts in the case of Mrs. Frederick Rackel.
Chairman Kefauver. Is it true that these particular pictures have
siiown up all over the country and very widely ?
Mr. Barnes. We have received reports that these same pictures
or duplicates of these pictures have been received as far away as India,
in Europe, in Cuba, and various parts of the United States.
Chairman Ivefauver. So they get one picture ; of course, they make
millions of duplicates.
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir; they can.
Chairman Ivefaumsr. Go ahead.
Mr. BoBO. Did you discover anything among these people as to
their distribution process for mailing out these slides?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Horner explained to me that he was the president
of an association whose interest, prime interest, was the furtherance
of 3-D photography, and that he corresponded with these members
who were located throughout the world; and that quite often they
v.'onkl exchange examples of their work. He did not and would not
((ualify the examples as being pornographic.
i\lr. BoBO. Did he give you the name of the association ?
Mr. Barnes. He might have, but I do not know ; I do not have that
"Nvith me.
Mi\ BoBO. You do not have^hat?
Mr. Barnes. No, sir; I do not.
j\rr. BoBO. Have you worked on any other case involving th.o taking-
of pornographic photos or pornographic film, its development and
distribution in tlie Los Angeles area?
Mr. Barnes. Yes ; I have.
A case of Mr. Richard Bush, of 422 Lincoln Boulevard, Santa
Monica. Mr. Bush was arrested first for the sale of lewd film. We
made the arrest after purchasing five reels of pornographic film, in-
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 377
eluding one which is entitled "The Nun, or Something Old, Something
New." The investigation continued in the way of searching the prem-
ises of Mr. Bush, which divulged numerous photographs of a very
])0)'nographic nature, including that of the man himself and a J()-year-
old iin-1 engaging in an act of sexual perversion.
Based upon this photograph we secured a complaint against Mr.
Bush for violation of the State statute prohibiting sexual oral coitus,
and prosecuted him for that charge. He was found guilty.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have another case that you can bring to our at-
tention, Mr. Barnes?
Mr. Barnes. As to amounts of property confiscated in the way of
pornographic material, probably the most outstanding one was made
by myself and officers of the administrative vice division, along with
the officers from Hunting-ton Park Police Department. This involved
the arrest of a man by the name of Joseph Winter, a woman by the
name of Beatrice Burke. Their address at that time was 1301 Club
View Drive, Los Angeles. At the time of their arrest we confiscated
approximately $50,0U0 worth of lewd material, both photographic and
Avritten.
Mr. BoBO. From the people did you determine where they might
have secured this material?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. AYinter, following his conviction, was advised by
liis attorney to divulge to me the source of his material. Mr. Winter
stated that he was making the delivery from the Star Book Shop in
San Francisco and that he had been apprehended while in transit. He
said that the material that he had received from Star Book Shop was
only a very, very small portion of tliat which the operator of that shop
liad at his disposal.
Upon examining the contents of this material, we foitnd that it
•iriginated from all over the country, with particular attention to Xew
York, Philadelphia, and Los Angeles. From New York there was
an exceedingly large amount of material supplied by Irving S. Klaw,
whom I understand this committee has met.
Chairman Kefalwer. Mr. Klaw calls himself the "Pinup King."'
and we are recommending that he be held in contempt of the Senate
for not testifying in New Y^ork.
Mr. Barnes. Your action is commendable.
Mr. Klaw has been known to the members of this police department
for a good number of years as a major distributor of the flagellation
type of pornography.
Also in the same material that was confiscated was material that
came from INIr. Edward Mishkin of New Y^ork City, whom I also
understand you have talked to.
Chairman Kefauver. That is M-i-s-h-k-i-n ?
Mr. Barnes. Y^'es. As this is the largest single confiscation that
we have made, it was important to us to try to determine the origin of
this production, rather than its distribution; and the areas that were
found to be producing and distributing locally were taken into the
investigation and appropriate action taken to the removal of that
source. Part of that is still currently under investigation.
I would like to make a statement relative to the conditions of por-
nography in Los Angeles.
Chairman Kefauver. Before you do that, may I ask a question?
Ylr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
378 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. You are a fine police officer, and I want to
compliment you npon all you are cloino- under difficult laws and dif-
ficult situations; but in these cases of Mishkin and Klaw, for in-
stance— this is a San Francisco case — Do you exchange memos about
these people, that is, with the New York police force, with the San
Francisco police force ?
Mr. Barnes, Immediately after your departure from New York
City I was given a letter of request from the New York City Police
Department to investigate certain persons who were corresponding
with Mr. Mishkin.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean that is after our hearing there
about 3 weeks ago ?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir. Prior to that date and since the time I have
been assigned to this detail, I had not received communications from
the New York City Police Department. I have received numerous
communications from other law-enforcement agencies, and particu-
larly in the Los Angeles County area ; all of the agencies represented
here who have requested information or requested that we conduct in-
vestigations, the office of the postal department, sheriff's office, district
;ittorney's office. "We constantly are getting together and comparing
our notes and making mutual investigations in an attempt to stop the
distribution of this material.
Chairman Kefau\'er. Mr. Barnes, this is aside from the subject
slightly, but since our crime committee investigation of 4 or 5 years
ago, I have been plugging very hard for some kind of a national
agency, under at least the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, to
act as an information exchange group and coordinating group and
information group for police authorities, prosecuting attorneys, all
around the country: so that when something shows up here in Los
Angeles that affects New York or Chicago, they would have informa-
tion about it. Doesn't this case rather prove that something like that
is very badly needed ?
Mr. Barnes. Before I answer you, Senator, I wonder if I might
clarify my expressions. Any statement that I might give to you in
the way of an opinion or observation is that of my own. I do not
speak for the police department. I am not in a position to do that.
Chairman Kefau^'er. ^Ye understand that entirely. I was only
asking your personal opinion.
Mr. Barnes. My personal opinion is that we need very much a cen-
ii-al intelligence agency for the purpose of disseminating this infor-
mation back and forth from one law-enforcement agency to another,
I think there is a certain element of distrust that exists between law-
enforcement agencies. Through this effort it might be a step in the
right direction to abolish this distrust and create a better under-
standing, and results would therefore be better if such an agency was
created.
Chairman Kefattver. T don't mean to underestimate the tremen-
dous importance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but it has
charge of enforcement of Federal laws and they do have the police
records of people ; but situations, conditions like you have found here,
where in many cases there may not be any police records, the detailed
information about this pornographv operation here would not be avail-
able through the FBI or any other source of information that I
kuow of.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 379
Mr. Barxes. That is true. That is true.
Chairman Kefauver, Thank you, sir.
Mr. Barnes. I was requested to brin<r to the hearing a report rela-
tive to an arrest that we made in the city of Culver City. There has
been no mention, as I understand, of recordings. This is the only
arrest that I liave made myself where I have personal knowledge of
recordings being produced and distributed that were of a pornographic
nature. "This involved the arrest of one Erwin Beard. Mr. Beard
was residing at 12^301/2 Washington Place, Culver City. We re-
ceived information tliat Mr. Beard was engaged in the sale of porno-
graphic recordings.
Upon learning of his address in Culver Cit}^, we contacted the
Culver City Police Department and told them we had made contact
with Mr. Beard under the guise that we were to purchase these records,
and they recommeiided that we go ahead with our investigation and
arrest, and tlien bring tliem before the Culver City Police Department
for booking.
I purchased four records from Mr. Beard, all of which were of a
very pornographic nature.
After the arrest had been effected, Mv. Beard surrendered the re-
maining part of his material, which was approximately 375 records
and the two master disks from which they are made. In the inter-
rogation of Mr. Beard following his arrest, he told me that he, in
company with another gentleman, had created this business, had cut
the original disks and were engaging in producing them until 3 years
ago, wdien his partner was arrested and convicted ; and that he immedi-
ately took his master disks and the remainder of his stock and put
them in hiding until very recently. In fact, 2 weeks prior to the date
of our arrest. He again attempted to make sales, and that the con-
fiscation we made at this time completely obliterated his business.
Mr. BoBO. What was the value placed upon the records, Mr. Barnes?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Beard was selling tliese for $20 for 2 disks and —
$20 for 2 disks, and then he added 2 other disks as an incentive for
further purchase.
]Mr. BoBO. You speak of these as being pornographic records ?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What kind of material is on the record ?
Mr. Barnes. One was entitled "Mr. Big Dick.'' Without becoming
embarrassing, I can say that it was completely pornographic in the
way of its wording, the noise, sound effects that were used, the expres-
sions that were used. It told of the sexual intercourse of a Mr. Big
Dick and two daughters of a prostitute. It was of a type that we
described as truly pornographic. There would be no question as to
whether it was or it was not.
Mr. BoBO. There was no question as to the obscenity?
Mr. Barnes. No, sir; there was absolutely none.
About the largest global producer that w^e have taken in the way
of still photographs was Mr. Kai Mortensen, Box 13, Newbury Park,
Ventura County. Mr. Mortensen was engaged in producing 4 by 5
pornographic — of the true pornographic type photographs and dis-
tributing them throughout the United States, including Mr. Mishkin
and Mr. Klaw, as I spoke of before. They were two of is clients.
We confiscated about 5,000 photographs and negatives from Mr.
65263—55 25
380 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mortensen at the time of his arrest. We prosecuted him here and
convicted him of the sale and keepino; for sale of this material. He
was then prosecuted again in Ventura County for the same charge and
convicted. His entire material was confiscated and ordered destroyed
by the court.
At the time of his arrest we also took the list of names and addresses
that he had of his clients.
Mr. Bono. What was the sentence that Mr. Mortensen received?
Mr. Barnes. I cannot accurately say. It was not a jail sentence.
It was a fine and a suspended sentence.
Mr. Bono. Did you discover in your investigation how orders would
be shipped to Mr. Mishkin or Mr. Klaw in New York City ?
Mr. Barnes. ]Mr. Mortensen was associated with a man in Simi,
Calif., and through this association he was able to distribute the mail
from Simi, Calif., to the agents outside of the California area. As
far as those in the Los Angeles area and immediate local area, he
would deliver those in person. Those would include Mr. E. A. Smith,
the operator of a book store on INIain Street here in Los Angeles, who
also has been arrested by us and convicted on two separate occasions,
which included the photographs that were produced by Mr.
Mortensen.
Mr. Bono. Is it your understanding that they were sent by mail to
Mr. Klaw and Mr. Mishkin in New York from the men in Simi, Calif. ?
Mr. Barnes. That is the information given to us by Mr, JSIortensen.
As to the accuracy of it, I do not kuQw.
That information was conveyed to both the office of the FBI and
to the postal authorities locally,
Mr. BoBO. Did he
Mr. Barnes. Pardon me.
Mr. BoBO. Did he give you the name of the man in Simi, Calif,,
which whom he was associated?
Mr. Barnes. Without referring to my notes, no, sir. At this time
I don't think so. I think I would recognize the name if I heard it,
Mr. BoBO. Was the name
Mr. Barnes. Yes, the name was Kish.
Mr. BoBO. K-i-s-h, Mr. Kish?
Mr. Barnes. Yes.
]Mr, BoBO. In Simi, Calif . Do you know his first name ?
Mr. Barnes. No, sir. Again, without referring to the notes that
I made at the time of the arrest and investigation, I could not say his
first name. I do recall going there to the location at Simi to ascer-
tain whether or not this man was still residing there, wnth officers
from the Ventura County sheriff's office, and we found that Mr. Kish
was still residing there and we obtained the license numbers of the
cars that were present at that time.
Mr, BoBO. Would the name of Ed Kish — would that refesh your
recollection ?
Mr. Barnes. That sounds correct, sir.
Mr, BoBO, Mr. Ed Kish?
Mr. Barnes. Yes.
Mr. BoBo. Of Simi, Calif.?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Chairman KErAU^T:R. Mr. Barnes, did this customer list indicate
nationwide distribution ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 381
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir; it definitely did. It included most of the
States.
Chairman Kefauver. Some foreign countries ?
Mr. Barnes. As I recall, there were no foreign countries listed.
Locally we have another problem that is coming to our attention
constantly. That is the so-called model studios and model agencies
that we have, whereby an amateur photographer might rent the
premises for the purpose of photographing nude females. Any per-
son, regardless of their background photographically speaking, may
do so.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean without a license?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir ; they may. They pay a fee of anywhere from
$2 to $10 an hour for the privilege of photographing such a person.
From these studios we have had numerous complaints and proof
of illegal photographs or pornographic photographs being made and
disseminated; but in each and every case where we can establish the
time for the element of prosecution, we do prosecute. However, the
control of the studio itself is still outside of the scope of the police
department.
When I was given the assignment to make this investigation of
these studios, I was told to submit recommendations as to municipal
legislation for their control; and on the 26th of May, this year, I
submitted to the police department a detailed recommendation as to
the control of the legislation. This recommendation has not been
approved as of this date. We believe that it will be approved; pos-
sibly not in its present form, but in a form like the one that we have
recommended. That would be to place all of the model studios under
license by the Police Commission and by the city of Los Angeles;
that each and every model who poses in the nude for photographs will
be registered with the police department; that each and every model
agent and studio manager, owner, operator, will likewise be required
to be registered with the police department ; and that one of the prime
requisites of this registration be that the man not be convicted or
have any conviction of a felony or any crime against public morals.
Further, described in there are the types of photographs that will
be permitted. Those are fairly interpretive as far as true type is
concerned, to remove any element of possible interpretation of being
anything other than pornographic.
It is also recommended in there that this does not infringe upon any
legal and appropriate medical research or any other approach to the
photographing of the nude form without due cause and due reason.
Mr. BoBO. May we have a copy of your recommendations for an
exhibit to our record ?
Mr. Barnes. You may have that, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. That will be made an exhibit.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 40," and is
as follows :)
Los Angeles Police Department
employee's report
Subject : Recommended municipal legislation.
Name and rank : Sgt. H. R. Keever, watch commander, administrative vice.
Date and timo reported : May 26, 1955, 1 : 30 p. m.
In answer to your assignment, this squad has conducted an investigation
and research into the field of nude model photography. This investigation indi-
382 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
cated the following action is necessary and needed to properly supervise and
maintain any degree of good moral standards for this activity.
1. E]ach studio that is rented, leased, or used for the purpose of photographing
nude models should be required to be licensed by the city of Los Angeles as such.
(This v\'ould not apply to private-owned studios that are used exclusively by the
owner or his employee or to a studio rented or leased by an individual and his
employees as a permanent photographic business location, and used exclusively
by said individual or his employee.)
2. Each owner, manager, or operator of any studio ; each agent or model repre-
sentative of a model who is photographed in a state of nudity should be regis-
tered with the Los Angeles Police Department and obtain a police commission
permit before engaging in the business of renting, leasing or loaning their studio
for photographing nude models; or assigning, employing, hiring, or sending any
model to any location for the purpose of being photographed in a state of nudity.
3. Every model that is to be photographed while in a state of nudity should be
required to be registered with the Los Angeles Police Department and to have
a police commission permit before engaging in such activity.
The foregoing recommended points are suggested due to the results of our
investigations of nude model studios and are based on the conclusions drawn
from this investigation and the interviews with those engaged in that business.
There are approximately eight studios in the city, as of this report, that are
used exclusively for the purpose of allowing amateur photographers to photo-
graph nude models. Some of these studios maintain inexpensive box-type cam-
eras for the convenience of those amateurs who do not have cameras. The
average charge for "group" photographers (three or more photographers, photo-
graphing the model simultaneously) is $4 for a 2-hour period. Private photog-
raphy (one photographer) is at an average of $10 per hour. Model fees are basi-
cally $5 per hour, but sometimes obtain as much as $25 an hour if rhe photograph-
ing is done at a private location, i. e., the photographers' apartment, beach area,
or mountain resort.
The reception room area of most studios is usually occupied by the owner,
manage;', or operator of the studio, thereby allowing the photographers to
"shoot" without supervision. In most cases the owner, manager, or operator
does not indicate a feeling of responsibility or concern as to what transpires
in the studio projjer. On occasion, we have found that the owner, manager, or
operator is a sex deviate and arranges the studio sittings to accommodate his
fellow deviates.
New model applicants generally fall into the category of 18- to 30-year-old
females that are lacking in strong moral standards. Some are known prostitutes,
some professional burlesque strippers, others are former juvenile-detention-
home releasees, and some just indolent females seeking income without physical
or mental effort.
Upon application for work, it becomes the owner's, manager's, or operator's
respon.sibility to "inspect" the new applicant and determine if she "qualifies."
Very few are refused employment. Age seems to determine the model's popu-
larity. If she is in her upper teens, her physical attributes are usually still
photograi)hically attractive and by coincidence, usually her ability to cope with
a promising line of conversation regarding future movie contracts, is not as
sharp as it would be in later years.
Models we have interviewed have informed us that the studio operators have
told them that big major studio producers, directors, and photographers are
among the men who are "shooting" the models in his studio. Others relate
that they were informed that imless they had intimate relations with the operator,
they wouldn't get assigned to the high-paying private sittings.
Not always are the operators the corrupt participant. One operator related
the story of a model who was chai'ging $1 a picture for those who wished to make
a clo.seup of her unclothed genital area. This practice is not uncommon, be-
cause the model feels she cannot be identified by such a photograph. Other
models are conducting prostitution at their apartments with the photographers
following the studio sittings. We have verified this fact.
Agents and model representatives usually operate at a $5 flat rate fee for
all appointments they arrange for private sittings. We have made arrests for
prostitution at such private "sittings" but were unable to prove the agent Icnew
in advance that the sitting would result in an act of prostitution. One agent
stated to our informant, "Be sure and carry a camera with you. That way you
can prove you intended to take pictures and that the 'piece' you get will be the
result, not the intent, then the police can't pinch you."
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 383
In the main, the photograi)hers are not even semiprofessional. The photo-
graphs they take si^eak for themselves. One may show concentration on bust
shots only, another will be of buttocks, and still another will concentrate on the
groin area. "Sneak shots" (taken while the model is changing pose and is
unaware) are very frequently taken. These photos are usually developed at
home in an inexpensive developing tank and may not come to our attention for
many months or until a print is circulated away from the photographer.
It is felt that it is next to impossil^le to control the photographer except by
studio regulation and operator-model laws. If the regulation is strong enough,
both the operator and the model will exercise voluntary control over the photog-
rapher.
Upon the completion of the investigation of the nude modeling business, we
compiled three proposed statutes for consideration and a set of recommended
rules to be followed for each police commission permit holder. We then inter-
viewed all known studio operators and agents as well as numerous models x'e-
garding this proposition. It was the general opinion that such control is needed
and the recommended rules were both reasonable and appropriate.
We, therefore, submit to you for consideration and approval the following
recommended statutes and police commission rules for the operation of the nude
photographic modeling bvisiness.
It is further suggested that the administrative vice division maintain the
records and files of all applicants for police department permits and that the
police commission endorse eligible applicants.
PROPOSED ORDINANCES
l^ude modeling
1. Every studio, agency, or model representative that employs the services
of any model to be photographed in a state of nudity by one or more photographers
other than the licensed owner, manager, operator, or agent, shall be required
to be licensed by the city of Los Angeles and to obtain a permit from the police
commission. Any studio, agency, or model's representative that employs the
services, or rents said services to any other person without being licensed and
operating under a police commission permit, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
(a) "State of nudity" is that state that exposes the human form without cov-
ering to the genital area and/or the female breasts.
2. Any person who owns, operates, maintains, or controls any studio, agency or
model's representative organization that employs the services of any model to
be photographed in a state of nudity shall be required to be registered with
the police commission before engaging in said business. Any person who owns,
operates, maintains or controls any studio, agency, or model's representative
organization that employs the services of any model to be photographed in a
state of nudity without being first registered with the police commission is
guilty of a misdemeanor.
3. Any person who engaged in the act of modeling or posing as a photographic
subject while in a state of nudity shall be required to be registered with the
police commission before engaging in said act. Any person who engages in
such act of modeling or posing as a photographic subject while in a state of
nudity and is not registered with the police commission is guilty of a misde-
meanor. (This section does not apply to bona fide medical research.)
POLICE COMMISSION REGULATIONS
Nude modeling
1. Every studio, agency, or model's representative must operate under police
department permit issued by the police commission, while engaging in the employ-
ment of services of any model who poses or models as a photographic subject
while in a state of nudity.
<o) This permit will be displayed in a conspicuous manner so as to be visible
from the reception room area of said business.
2. Every person who owns, operates, maintains, or controls any studio, agency,
or model's representative organization that employs the services of any model
to be photographed in a state of nudity shall be required to be registered with
the police department and the registration card issued shall be displayed upon
request by any police officer, by the person to whom it is issued.
{a) This registration card is not transferable and must l)e immediately acces-
sible to the applicant, while engaged in the operation of his business.
.3. Every person who engages in the act of modeling or posing as a photographic
subject while in a state of nudity is required to be registered with the police
384 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
department and must display the registration card issued at the request of any
police officer while said model is so employed.
(a) This registration card is not transferable and must be immediately acces-
sible to the applicant while engaged in the act of modeling or posing in a state
of nudity.
4. It shall be the responsibility of each owner, manager, or operator of a photo-
graphic studio as described in this section to maintain a photographer's registra-
tion book within the studio and that each photographer be compelled to sign his
true name and correct address under the present date before engaging in photo-
graphing a model who is posing in a state of nudity. Model's name will also be
placed by photographer's signature to denote model used.
5. It shall be the responsibility of each owner, manager, or operator of a
photographic studio as described in this section to prohibit the consumption of
any alcoholic beverages by models, iihotographers or other parties present during
the course of business of photographing models in a state of nudity.
6. It shall be the responsibility of each owner, manager, or operator of a
photographic studio as described in this section to maintain supervision over
the conduct of models in their employ and to maintain professional standards in
the issuance of directions to said models.
7. The following rules shall be followed in the photographing of any model
in a state of nudity :
(a) No photographs shall be made which exposes the genitals or pubic hair of
the model.
(b) No photographs shall be made which depicts any lewd or suggestive act or
motion.
(c) No model shall be photographed while touching her breasts or genitals
with her hand.
id) No photographs shall be made which includes a man and a woman while
either is in a state of nudity.
(e) Where two or more models of the same sex are used in the same photo-
graph, there shall be no touching of the bodies between models.
(f) In any case where motion-picture photography is used, the model must wear
a permanent nontransparent covering over the genitals and crease of the but-
tocks. The nipples of the breasts that have different pigmentation than the
body of the breast must also be covered with like material.
(g) No photographer shall be allowed to make physical contact with the model
while the model is engaged in posing or modeling.
(h) Upon completion of modeling and during recesses between modeling as-
signments, the model will retire to an enclosed dressing room or become clothed.
(i) Profanity and obscenity will not be permitted at any time during the con-
ducting of photographic modeling.
ij) It shall be the responsibility of every owner, manager, operator, and model
to report violations of this section to the police department immediately.
(fc) There will be no photographs made in any order that may be assembled
in sequence form depicting the dressing or undressing of a model.
(I) There will be no photographs made of a model in the process of removal
of the undergarments such as brassiere or panties.
8. Each applicant for a police commission permit as owner, manager, operator,
or model will be required to be photographed by the police department before
engaging in business. Permits will not be issued to any person who has been
found guilty of any felony or any crime involving public morals.
9. It is not legal for any person, below the age of IS years, to be photographed
in the state of nudity. Model applicants will be required to present positive
proof of age before permit will be granted.
10. No person under the age of IS years will be allowed to be present on the
premises while models are posing in a state of nudity.
11. A complete copy of the foregoing rules and regulations shall be posted
in a conspicuous location within the studio for the benefit of all concerned
parties.
12. Each change of address by an owner, manager, agent, or operator, or
model shall be reported by mail to the police department, within 5 days and
suitable notations will be made on the applicant's registration card.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 385
13. All outdoor photography of nude models within the city of I^os Angeles
will be conducted in such a way to eliminate all possibilities of observation
by any party or parties to be offended. ( See sec. 311.1 P. C. )
KespectfuUy submitted.
P. I. Barnes, No. 5454.
II. O. Collins, No. 0885.
R. E. Anderson, No. 53U0.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Barnes, have you had any occasion to investigate
any pornographic cases wherein the use of male models might be
used '(
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir; we have. We had such a case recently in-
volving a Mr, Lyle Frisby, whose business address was 1438 Kaud
Street, Los Angeles. On the 16th of May 1954, by virtue of a war-
rant, we arrested Mr. Frisby and another gentleman, wdio is in the
audience at the present time, a Mr. Robert Mizer. Mr. Mizer was
distributing a magazine known as Physique Pictorial, which is a maga-
zine containing photographs of male models of tlie muscle-men type.
Included in this magazine were photographs under ads of male models.
One of these ads was under the name Lyle of Hollywood. It showed
a photograph of a man in a seated position, who appeared to be
wearing a jock strap over the pubic area. We went to Mr. Frisby
at the address he had advertised in this magazine and purchased the
same photograph from Mr. Frisby, and the photograph was without
any adornment in the area of the pubic region. It was a complete
nude; the genitals were showing. Based on this purchase we made
the arrest of Mr. Frisby and of Mr. Mizer. Both Mr. Frisby and
Mr. Mizer were convicted in court. How^ever, Mr. Mizer filed a notice
of appeal through his attorney, and the case was reversed, following
his sentence of 90 days in jail. The case was reversed and Mr. Mizer
was released from that conviction imder the appellate decision, that
in the manner in which he sold the photograph he was not guilty.
Mr. Frisby was convicted and all his material confiscated and de-
stroyed.
Mr. BoBO. Wliat was the size of the amount of the material that you
confiscated and destroyed, the quantity ?
Mr. Barnes. There were many thousands of photographs, and bas-
ing it on the sale value as it was told to us, they were $2 a print, I
would say close to $10,000 in that sense, in the sense that they sell it.
Mr. BoBO. Was his distribution entirely within this area, or did
he have distribution in points outside of the California area?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Frisby indicated that he sold throughout the
United States and that he did have the sanction of the postal depart-
ment for selling such material.
Cliairman Kefauver. Now, that is just what he said about it?
Mr. Barnes. That is just what he said about it.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, I don't believe he had the sanction of
the post office.
Mr. Barnes. I concur with your conclusions.
Mr. BoBO. Was there any evidence developed around Mr. Frisby
that showed where he had sold these particular types of photographs,
near schools and playground areas ?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Frisby's business location was backed up against
a playground and w^ithin 300 yards was a school and school grounds.
One of the cliarges in his complaint was keeping or, rather, possess-
386 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
ing lewd photographs within 300 yards of a school, park, or play-
ground.
During the investigation we found one man, who is now a marine,
who had posed for such photographs when he was IT years of age.
He was not available at the time of the prosecution, so therefore his
case was not brought up, other than through the investigation.
Mr. BoBO. Did you receive any evidence in your investigation
whether these photographs ma}' have been sold to any of the children
on the playground or at the school ?
Mr. Barnes. No, sir ; I did not.
Chairman Kefaitver. Well, Mr. Barnes, you and the other officers
here are good men. I have been associated with many men in the Los
Angeles police force, and you have good, conscientious men. You have
been making a hard try at this thing. The laws and the decisions of
the courts and other things have caused you a great many handicaps,
haven't they ?
Mr, Barnes. Yes ; they have, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. I hope vou don't become discouraged by vir-
tue of the difficulty you have had.
Mr, Barnes. No, sir. We sit back and wait.
Chairman KEFAu^^:R. As I understand your testimony, your par-
ticular hardships and recommendations are, then, you have talked
about the control of the studios ; that is one thing.
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefau\^r. The wording of the statute, the State stat-
ute, is another difficulty you have had.
Mr. Barnes. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. The light sentences are another difficulty.
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. The absence of exchange of information be-
tween police departments is another national difficulty.
Mr, Barnes. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. And then the strengthening that needs to be
done of the postal regulation is still another difficulty.
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefau\'er. Do you have any other suggestions as to what
might be done to help you clean out this filth, be able to enforce it
better?
Mr. Barnes. The problem — pardon me.
Chairman Keauver. To be able to enforce the laws better.
Mr. Barnes. I think the problem that faces us now, that is probably
the greatest problem, is the fact that each case must be tried on its
own merits. That which we might brino; in today and have a court
adjudge guilty from the interpretation of the material, that same ma-
terial "can be sold by his next-door neighbor the following day and
another arrest made, and a presentation to the second court or second
jury would reverse the decision insofar as their interpretation might
be ; so that we are not — we do not have a standard to operate with.
It becomes quite a problem to us when we make the same arrests at 10
or 12 different locations ; 1 or 2 might be guilty and the balance would
not, or vice versa.
Chairman Kefattser. And the final thing you need is better backing
on the part of the people in your efforts.
Mr. Barnes, Yes, sir; definitel3^
I
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 387
Chairman Kefauvek. That is a big thing.
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, Mr. Barnes.
Mr. Barnes. Thank you.
Chairman Kefauver. We compliment you upon your work and we
wish you continued success.
Mr. Barnes. Thank you very much, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr, Alberts. Will Mr. Alberts come around
now.
Get Mr. Fleishman a chair there.
Mr. Fleishman. Thank you, sir. I have got one.
Chairman Kefauver. You are Mr. i\-lberts?
Mr. Alberts. I am Mr. Alberts.
C^hairman Kefauver. Will you hold up your hand.
(Mr. Alberts' was sworn.)
TESTIMONY OF DAVID S. ALBERTS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
STANLEY FLEISHMAN, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.
Mr. Fleishman. Mr. Senator, at the outset
■J
Chairman Kefal'V'er. Let Mr. Alberts sit down.
Mr. Fleishman. I have three short motions that won't take 3
minutes.
Chairman Kefauver. Just a minute, now, sir.
Mr. Fleishman. Thank you.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. Now, Mr. Alberts, what is your address ?
Mr. Alberts. Sunset Palm Apartments, Los Angeles.
Chairman Kefauver. Sunset Palm Apartments?
Mr. Alberts. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. And your age, sir?
Mr. Alberts. Thirty-three.
Chairman Kefauver. And your wife is back there with you ?
Mr. Alberts. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, sir, tell us your full name.
Mr. Fleishman. Stanley Fleishman.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, Mr. Fleishman, what is your address?
Mr. Fleishman. 1741 North Ivar.
Chairman Kefauvt:r. And you are an attorney at law of the city
of IjOS Angeles, and you are the attorney for Mr. Alberts ?
Mr. Fleishman. I trust that won't be held against me, Mr. Senator.
Chairman IvEFAuvii^R. No, sir. As a counsel you have a right to
take any case that is within the canons of ethics.
Mr. Fleishman. Thank you, sir. As I say, I have three short
motions, if I may.
Chairman Kefauver. Pull that a little bit closer, sir.
Mr. Fleishman. They won't take 3 minutes. The first is, we believe
that Mr. Alberts ought not to be required to testify here now because,
as you have been told, he is up for sentence a week from yesterday,
and we can't help but feel that this must be an influencing factor
upon the court, which it should not be on an open court. Moreover,
there is a motion for a new trial set for the same time, and we feel
that the motion may be seriously adversely affected; that he would
not get the fair hearing that he would get otherwise. I am sure you
are familiar with the Delaney case where this problem was faced very
65263—55 26
388 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
seriously by the court, so we feel that if the testimony is necessary^
that it be put over to another time. That is our first motion.
Chairman Kefauvek. Mr. Fleishman, let me see if I understand
that sufficiently. Mr. Alberts has been convicted in the State court ?
Mr. Fleishman. That is true.
Chairman Kefau^ter. On a number of counts of possessing or sell-
in£f-
Mr. Fleishman. Well, there are two counts involved.
Chairman Kefau\'er. What are the counts ?
Mr. Fleishman. I was not the attorney there so that I am just
familiar with it in a general sense and couldn't state it accurately. It
does have to do generally with the subject that you are inquiring into
today, though.
Chairman Kefau^^er. Who was the attorney in those cases ?
Mr. Fleishman. I believe it was Mr. Maddox of Beverly Hills — I
know it was.
Chairman Kefaitv^r. Anyway, those cases grow out of this matter
we are discussing here ; is that correct i
Mr. Fleishman. It is certainly related sufficiently.
Chairman Kefauv'er. And when was Mr. Alberts convicted?
Mr. Fleishman. I am not sure of the time. Within the last month,
certainly.
Chairman I^fau\t:r. Maybe Mr. Alberts would know.
Mr. Fleishman. I wouldn't want him to answer that.
It was within the last month, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well.
Mr. Fleishman. I do believe
Chairman Kefauver. I am just trying to get the date.
Mr. Fleishman. Yes. The new trial is coming up on Friday,,
within a week, and we do feel that it has already been seriously ad-
versely affected, and that to require him to proceed would make it
even more serious. As a matter of fact, I spoke with Mr. Bobo briefly
in the hope that so much wouldn't be said, because I am sure we all
agree that a court case ought to be decided by the court uninfluenced
by this type of proceeding, however necessary tliis type of proceeding
may be.
Chairman Ivefaitver. Then, after the motion for a new trial is
argued, if it is granted there will be a new trial ; if it is not, there will
either be a sentence or an appeal ; is that correct ?
Mr. Fleishman. That is right.
Chairman Ivefauver. Wliat are your other motions, sir?
Mr. Fleishman. The second one is on the subpena duces tecum.
We feel that it is much too broad, amounting to a fishing expedition in
a large part. It calls for all records of your interest and property,,
real, personal, or mixed. This is not a general investigating commit-
tee. Of course, it has a purpose, and it would seem that much of the
material sought is outside of the purpose. I think this perhaps calls
to mind what may have happened, and I think it is unfortunate. I
have a feeling that these siibpenas were signed in blank and handed
over to investigators who came out here, and then completed it as
they thought fit.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Fleishman, you are wrong about that.
The subpenas were signed by me.
Mr. Fleishman. With the material called for in the subpenas ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 389
Chairman Ejsfauver. I am sure. I don't remember the particular
subpena, but my ruling
Mr. Fleishman. Well, the newspaper accounts indicated that the
investigators were coming out here to determine who to investigate
and how to do it.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, of course, we have been here for some
time and we are in pretty close communication with one another.
Mr. Fleishman. Well, I may be in error.
Chairman Kefauver. Then, anyway, suppose we read the subpena
into the record. Let it be printed in the record at this time. We have
a copy of it.
(The subpena was marked "Exhibit No. 41," and reads as follows:)
United States of America
congress of the united states
To David S. Alberts, Greeting:
Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear before the
Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate of the United
States, on June 17, 1955, at 9 a. m., at their committee room, 518 United States
Post Office and Courthouse Building. 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles,
Calif., then and there to testify what you may know relative to the subject
matters under consideration by said committee, and bring with you copies of
your Federal and State income tax returns for the years 1950 to 1954, inclu-
sive, bankbooks, canceled checks, check stubs, statements of accounts and lia-
bilities, profit and loss statements, and other records pertaining to your business
for the years of 1950 to 1954, inclusive, and all records of your interest in
proi^erty, real, personal, or mixed.
Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties
in such cases made and provided.
To to serve and return.
Given under luy hand, by order of the committee, this 10th day of June, in the
year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five.
EsTES Kefauver,
Chdirman, Subcommittee To Investigate Juvenile Delinquency,
Committee on the Judiciary.
[Endorsement]
June 13, 1955.
I made service of the within subpena by serving in person the within-named
David S. Alberts, at 8627 Melrose Avenue, Los Angeles, at 4 :30 p. m., on the
13th day of June 1955.
P. I. Barnes.
Mr. Fleishman. Yes, certainly.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, in response to the subpena are you
bringing in any records and books?
Mr. Fleishman. We have brought records, but w^e deem it to be an
unreasonable search and seizure and also violative of the fifth
amendment.
Chairman Kefauver. Either tell us whether you are complying
with the subpena —
Mr. Fleishman. Well, records have been brought, but we will not
turn records over on the ground that we feel it is an unreasonable
search and seizure and it is violative of the defendant's — you sound
like a defendant when you come here a little bit — the witness' rights
under the fifth amendment.
Chairman Kefauver. Then, what is your third motion, sir?
Mr. Fleishman. The third motion is tliat we feel that this commit-
tee of one is improperly constituted. Much has been said, and cor-
390 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
rectly so, as to the impropriety of having committees of one; and I
understand that there was a Senate rule pointing to the vice inher-
ent in it and urging tliat there be no mores uch committees; so that
ve feel that this committee, being improperly constituted, has no
power to compel any testimony.
Those are the three motions.
Chairman Kkfauver. Well, dealing with your motions in the reverse
order, I don't like committees of one, either. I have always advocated
tliat there should be more than 1 Senator present at any meeting, but
the rule of the Judiciarj^ Committee is that if permission by the com-
mittee is given for a hearing to l)e held by 1 Senator, it is a legal
hearing and is permitted. Such permission has previously been
written into the record here.
As to the second part, j^our second motion, I would like to have
permission for tlie staff to see just what records you might have
brought in response to the subpena so that we can get a description if
not the details of the records, but what they are, in the record; and
then w^e will decide that question later on as to whether the subpena
is too broad.
I think, frankly, i:hat there is something to your suggestion or your
objection that with the case pending that you are talking about, that
Ave perhaps should not require Mr. Alberts to testify this afternoon.
As much as I dislike the kind of business that has been described
that he is in, I don't want to take an unfair advantage of him.
But, Mr. Fleishman, Mr. Alberts will remain under subpena. His
case will be disposed of some time or another. This committee will
be back in Los Angeles some time again, and eventually Mr. Alberts
will be required to tell the committee such parts of the nature of his
business as pertains to our investigation.
Mr. Fleishmax. That is understood, of course.
Chairman Kefauver. Can it be understood that he will remain
under subpena, that he will appear upon notice either to you as his
counsel or to him by telegram or by letter?
Mr. Fleisiijuan. Certainly. That would be agreeable.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. We will excuse you at this time.
Mr. Fleishman. Thank you.
May Mrs. Alberts be excused also? She was also involved in the
same proceeding, and although she was
Chairman Kefauaer. I^et's have Mrs. Alberts come around. We
take people one by one as they appear.
TESTIMONY OF VIOLET EVELYN STANARD ALBERTS,
LOS ANGELES, CALIF.
Chairman Kefau\t:r. Now, you are Mrs. Alberts ?
Mrs. Alberts. Yes; Violet.
Chairman Kefauatcr. "V^Hiat is your first namef
Mrs. Alberts. Violet.
Chairman Kefauat.r. \^niat ? I thought your name was Stanard.
Mrs. Alberts. You didn't ask me.
Chairman Kefaus'er. Ma'am?
Mrs. Alberts. You didn't ask me.
Chairman Kefauver. I thought I asked you what your name was.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 391
Mrs. Alberts. You asked my first name. My whole name is Violet
Evelyn Stanard Alberts.
Chairman Kefauver. I see. Now, you are the wife of the man who
has just been here?
Mrs. Alberts. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, what is the situation relative to Mrs.
Alberts. Mr. Fleishman?
Mr. Fleishman. She was in the same trial and was acquitted,
although we feel that the judge might just as well be influenced, per-
liaps, by this. The two of them were tried together in the court of the
same trial.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean the transactions about which we
w^ould ask her you think have a direct relation to the business of her
husband ?
Mr. Fleishman. The same thing. Your Honor. The same thing
They worked together.
Chairman Kefaus^er. They were tried on the same charges ?
Mr. Fleishman. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. But the charges were dismissed as to Mrs.
Alberts?
Mr. Fleishman. That is true, after trial.
Chairman Kefauver. After trial?
Mr. Fleishman. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. You mean the jury dismissed her?
Mr. Fleishman. The judge.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, is she under indictment?
Mr. FLEISH3IAN. No.
Chairman Kefauver. Or a charge of anything at the present time?
Mr. Fleishman. No, but I think it is the same business, and again
the judge, I feel, would be as likely to be influenced as to Mrs. Alberts'
testimony — almost, not quite as much — as he would with Mr. Alberts.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, frankly, Mr. Fleishman, legally I don't
think you have much ground to stand on insofar as Mrs. Alberts is
concerned. I am sure the judge w^ill decide the case, the motion for
a new trial and the sentence on the evidence and the facts before him
without regard to what this lady might testify ; but we don't want to
— we would lean over the other way rather than take a chance on
prejudicing his position.
Mr. Fleishman. It would be agreeable
Chairman Kefau\'er. But I think Mrs. Alberts might very well
know, and I put you on notice, that you wnll be required to tell about
this whole business.
Mrs. Alberts. I will be available, as my husband wnll be.
Chairman Kefauver. Then you will remain under subpena and we
will notify you when we come here again.
Mr. Fleishman. We will be agreeable to that. Thank you very
much, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Now, Mr. Fleishman, with Mr. George Mar-
tin here — we don't want to see the contents of what you produce, but
we would like to at least have an inventory of w^hat it is. Then you
keep it in your possession, so that we can decide whether what you
have brought in is responsive to the subpena which has been made in
the record. If you will go over this wdth Mr. Martin ?
Mr. Fleishman. Yes.
392 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. Lieutenant "Walter J. Sullivan.
Have a seat, sir.
STATEMENT OF LT. WALTER J. SULLIVAN, INVESTIGATOR FOR
THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY, CALIF.
Chairman KErAu\T5R. All right, Mr. Bobo.
Mr. Bobo. Lieutenant Sullivan, would you state to us your name,
your address, and your present position ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. Walter J. Sullivan; I reside at 4053 Farm-
dale Avenue, Studio City. I am an investigator working out of the
office of District Attorney S. Ernest Roll.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Sullivan, on or about March 1 of this year, 1955, did
you participate in a police raid on the Alberts' establishment?
Lieutenant Sullivan. I think the date was, if I may refer to my
notes — was on or about February 25. I am not quite sure, but I
think that was the date, after
Mr. BoBO. That Avas the establishment of David S. Alberts and
Violet E. Stanard Alberts ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. That is right, sir. Yes: it was on February
25, after obtaining a proper search warrant from Judge Charles
Griffin of the municipal court of Beverly Hills, we proceeded to var-
ious addresses and took samples of some of the materials that the
Alberts were mailing.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have a list of the addresses from which they were
operating ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. Yes. They have an office and some material
at 8627 Melrose Avenue, Los Angeles; a warehouse at 8733 Santa
Monica Boulevard ; and officers also went to their home at that time
located at 110641/^ Strathmore Drive in West Los Angeles.
Mr. BoBo. Upon visiting these establishments, did you find any
material of a pornographic nature, strip photos, or lewd films ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. Yes. We found material that in our opin-
ion was of that nature. We took samples of quite a number of the
materials that they were mailing out, brought them back to the court.
They w^ere later reviewed by the district attorney's office, following
which both Mr. and Mrs. Alberts were charged with four counts of
violation of State law.
Mr. BoBO, Do you have with you any copies of pictures of the mate-
rial which you actually seized in these raids ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. With the consent of Judge Griffin, I have
with me some of the material that we took at that time.
Mr. Bobo. In each establishment in which you visited, how many
samples of the particular
Chairman Kefauv'ER. Well, let's see some of it up here.
Mr. Bobo. May we have copies of that ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. Here is a box of stereotype pictures, consist-
ing of pictures of nude women in color.
A bunch of pamphlets: Curious and Unusual Love Affairs, How
To Be Happy Though Married, Prostitution in the United States,
A Prostitute and Her Lover, Letters of the Courtesans, The Love
Affairs of a Priest and a Nun, Amorous Tales of the Monks, Wild
Women of Broadway, Confessions of a Minister's Daughter.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 393
I think you gentlemen already have in your possession some of
the — flagellation pictures of Tina and others of the same sort.
Mr. BoBO. These are pictures showing various types of torture be-
tween females, beatings?
Lieutenant Sullivan. Dl^jks of playing cards, pictures of nude
women on each and every playing card.
Mr. BoBO. These are large playing cards with lithograph full-color
pictures of various women in nude poses.
Lieutenant Sullivan, on this one card here I notice an autograph on
the bottom of the picture. Do you know the person, the photographer,
who might have taken these pictures ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. I do not, sir.
Mr. BoBO. A Mr. Felix Glied, Jr.
Lieutenant Sullivan. I know of him by name, but I am not per-
sonally acquainted with him. He is a local photographer.
I have quite a number of other things here. I don't know whether
the committee would be interested in all of them or not, sir.
Mr. BoBO. In visiting these various establishments, you took just
certain samples of the materials which were there ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. That is correct, sir.
Here are a couple of bound books. One, Witch on Wheels ; the other,
Resort to Sin; which it is my understanding that the judge who tried
them as the result of this raid thought that they were obscene.
Mr. BoBO. This Resort to Sin is a book by Mr, Clifford Forbes,
published by the Arco Publishing Co., Inc., 420 Lexington Avenue,
NewYork, N. Y.
The AVitch on A^lieels is a book by Bill Boltin, published by the same
publishing company.
Both of those books, it is your understanding, were found to be
obscene in the view of the judge in that case ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. That is my understanding, sir.
However, I might say this, that the prosecuting attorney, Mr.
James Nelson, is here present at the hearing and can better advise the
committee as to the judge's findings.
That is two pictures of some of the evidence that was seized that is
now under the court's jurisdiction, but in the hands of the district
attorney.
Mr. BoBO. You have presented us two pictures of some of the evi-
dence that was received. Am I to understand that in picking up this,
did you pick up the entire contents of the buildings into which you
raided ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. No.
Mr. BoBO. How many samples of each particular type of literature
would you confiscate?
Lieutenant Sullivan. I would estimate approximately six types
of each piece of literature or book or picture that they had for sale
out there, sir.
Mr. BoBO. In picking up six samples of each particular type of
literature which they had, how was it transported back to the place of
storage ?
Ijieutenant Sullivan. It was transported by truck. We reported
to the judge what we had and it was then brought to the district attor-
ney's office and placed in storage for use of the judge and the court.
394 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Approximately what quantity of material was seized, Mr.
Sullivan? . , , m ^
Lieutenant Sullwan. I would say approxnnately— possibly a ton
of it. ^
Mr. BoBO. A ton of it ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. I would say approximately a ton.
Mr BoBO Did you place any approximate valuation upon the entire
contents of the buildings which you visited? Was there a valuation
placed upon them ? , -, ^ • ttt v j
Lieutenant Sullivan. No ; not to my knowledge, sir. \\ e did see
some records of the business which indicated to us that the business
was o-rossing forty to fifty thousand dollars a month.
Mr BoBO Was there a method of operating according to the evi-
dence which you picked up there ? Was it by mail order business and
solicitation ^
Lieutenant Sullr'an. Yes, sir ; it was by mail order business. We
found much of the advertising that was going out over the country m
this particular warehouse which we raided.
]Mr. BoBO. Were they operating under the name ot the Male Mer-
chandise Mart? <• ^1 • 1 i. i.
Lieutenant Sullivan. Yes, under that name, and one of tlieir latest
name was the Sailor Jock's.
Mr. BoBO. I believe you also have with you there a purchase order
book which you confiscated in that raid. A^liat does that purchase
order book show as to the distribution of material ? Does it show that
purchases were made only in the Los Angeles area frorn the Male
Merchandise Mart, or were there purchases made from points outside
of California and other places in different parts of the United States?
Lieutenant Sullivan. They were made from outside of California.
New York City and various other locations throughout the country.
I have several purchase order books here if you want to look them
over, sir.
Mr. BoBO. All right, sir.
Lieutenant Sullivan. AVe seized at the time some of their mailing
lists, approximated 15 boxes of the mailing lists, which indicated that
they were shipping at least advertising, possibly merchandise, to all
sections of the country.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have any approximate count as to the number
of names which might appear upon that mailing list?
Lieutenant Sullivan. I do not, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else you want to tell us about it,
Mr. Sullivan? ,, o . o j;
Lieutenant Sullivan. Not at the moment, Mr. Senator. So tar as
the trial of the action is concerned
Chairman Kefauver. We would like to have the opportunity of
getting information from— you have been mighty cooperative with our
people, but particularly the order books and the connections in other
States showing interstate commerce and the type of interstate com-
merce. We would ask you to let us develop as much as we can. It
would be helpful from this standpoint. That will be all right,
w^on't it ?
Lieutenant Sullivan. Yes, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Thank you very much, sir.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 395
Now, I said in the beginning that anyone's name who was here that
had been brought out who wanted an opportunity to make any state-
ment would have that ojjportunity. I don't believe anyone has spoken
to our counsel or start" about it. Is there anyone whose name has been
mentioned who would like to, testify ?
Mrs. Ray Suchman. Mr. Chairman, you mentioned my name wrong.
I wonder if I could just have a minute on this television issue.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, lady, we finished up our television
hearing. What is it? You told me your right name this morning.
Mrs. SucHMAN. Mrs. Ray Suchman.
Chairman Kefau\t2R. What is the nature of your statement, Mrs.
Suchman ?
Mrs. Suchman. I Just wanted to say I am in 100 percent hearty
agreement with all you are doing, but I don't think there has been
enough stressed on television. If you go along all the streets, little
houses that are ready to collapse have an antenna on them. That
shows the power of television.
Chairman Kjefauver. Yes.
Mrs. Suchman. I just wanted you to take cognizance of that. It
is a very important thing in our lives. I don't go to movies; I sit
home. A lot of us old folks get all of our information and entertain-
ment over the television. I just wanted that to go in the record.
Chairman Kefauver. Yes. Thank you very much.
Mrs. Leta Meyers Smart. Mr. Chairman, I am hoping what I left
with you will suffice.
Chairman Kefauver. Just a moment, now, good lady. Will you
tell us your name?
Mrs. Smart. Leta Meyers Smart. I was interested because one of
your reasons for this investigation was the juvenile delinquency among
the Indian children.
Chairman Kefauver. Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Smart. Since I have covered it in the material I left with you,
and I think I have had your assurance that it is a subject that you are
interested in, especially on account of the new drug that these children
are taking and the letting loose of the liquor on the Indian reserva-
tions. That is all brought out, so I won't take up the time of the com-
mittee; but I have been asked to be sort of a spokeswoman for this
lady here, whom I have just met this morning. She left a letter with
you yesterday, and she will give you her own name. I haven't had
time to go into it to see really what her suggestions would be to your
committee ; but the main difficulty here is now with this lady that she
would like to know just what form her plan would have to be in so as
to get the attention of your committee. I think you have her letter
there.
Wliat is your name ? Give your name.
Mrs. NivENANDA. I am Madam Nivenanda.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mrs. Nivenanda, if you have written
us a letter, it will certainly get our attention ; but what is it you have
on your mind ?
Mrs. Ni\T.NAXDA. I would like to know for what extent I could
benefit for the juvenile delinquency? I have given consultations on
many cases and have given a lot of time and prevented people from
getting down on Skid Row, so to say, and I would like to know, since
396 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
I am of foreig-n descent, the sort of fear that I could have to un-Ameri-
can activity in my mind, and would not be beneficial for the children ;
and I would Uke to inquire as to what extent I could serve.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, we appreciate your willingness to serve.
You write us fully just how you can serve and in what ways you
think you will be helpful, and we will let you know,
Mrs. NiVENANDA. Thank you.
Chairman Kefauver. As to the Indian children, we have had some
hearings in North Dakota. Senator Langer has been out to New
Mexico and Palm Springs ; Arizona, too ; and we are aware of the sad
plight of our Indian children, with bad housing, schooling sanitary
conditions; the fact that they are being subjected to not very healthy
influences. We hope we can do something about it. We appreciate
your interest. I think we understand one another about the Indian
children.
Mrs. Leta Meyers Smart. One thing I want to bring especially to
this— I am not trying to stir up a hornet's nest nor turn a Democrat
against a Republican — but if you read my material, you will see that
I referred to Public Law 277. Now, if it hadn't been for that law
liavmg come into effect August 15, 1953, which turned the liquor loose
to the Indians, we wouldn't have as great a juvenile delinquency or
adult delinquency problem among them ; but that happened. Try as
we could, when some of us were in Washington, to advise that special
Congressman who drafted that H. R. 1055, that to do that would be
absolutely unconstitutional, Harold Patton, of Arizona, his name was;
and he didn't know about the situation that the Indians themselves
would have to amend certain provisions in their treaties before the
President or Congress could bring that about legally.
Now, I think an Indian should have the same right as everyone
else, it is not that; but until the tribes themselves
Chairman Kefauver. Well, now, lady
Mrs. Smart. And I bring that out in my material.
Chairman Kefauver. We will study your material.
Mrs. Smart. Yes. It is very serious. It has to be undone some
way or another.
Chairman Kej^auver. All right. Thank you, ma'am.
Mrs. Smart. The repeal of Public Law 277.
Chairman Kefauver. We appreciate your interest and the interest
of everyone else who has been here to our hearings.
I particularly wanted to see if there is anyone whose name has been
mentioned in the hearings who wanted to make an explanation or pre-
sent their side of any controversy that has come up here.
Now, Mr. Bobo, there are undoubtedly witnesses here who have
been subpenaed, whom we are not going to be able to hear this after-
noon. Do you want to read any of them out so we can see if they are
here ?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 397
Mr. BoBo. Yes, sir.
Chairman KErAU\'ER. Mr. Martin, you read out the names of any
witnesses that we have not called.
Mr. Martin. William Door.
Mr. Door. Here.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Door, where are you, sir?
Mr. Door. Here.
Mr. Martin. William Miller.
Mr. Miller. Here.
Chairman Kefauver. Is Mr. Miller here ?
Mr. Miller. Here.
Mr. Martin. Mr. and Mrs. Glied ?
(No response.)
Mr. Martin. Andy Anderson?
Mr. Anderson. Here.
Mr. Martin. Mr. De Muth.
Mr. De Muth. Here.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, gentlemen, can we have your willing
ness that you will remain under subpena, and that by notice by let-
ter or by telegram you will reappear at the time we notify you? Is
that all right with you, sir, Mr. Door ?
Mr. Door. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Anderson ?
Mr. Anderson. Yes.
Mr. Miller. I would like to say a word.
Chairman Kefau\'er. All right, sir. Come up here.
What is your name, sir ?
Mr. Miller. William Miller.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Miller. You hold up your hand
and be sworn.
(Mr. Miller was sworn.)
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. MILLER, HOLLYWOOD, CALIF.
Chairman Kefauver. I believe there is also Miss or Mrs. Helene
Block. Is she here, too ?
Mrs. Block. Yes.
Chairman Kefauater. Will you come back at the time we notify you ?
Mrs. Block. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Miller, what is your full name?
Mr. Miller. William J. Miller.
Chairman Kefau\'er. "Wliere do you live, sir ?
Mr. Miller. 2829 Beachwood Drive.
Chairman Kefaua^er. All right, Mr. Miller, what is it you want to
tell us now ?
Mr. Miller. I was subpenaed to bring my records down here and
to appear. For what reason, I would like to know. I have never been
in this business at all in my life, and why should I be subpenaed ?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, if we have done you an injustice, I
certainly want to apologize. What is the situation about Mr. Miller?
398 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Miller, have you ever been involved with any photo-
graphic or model agencies or the securing of models for taking of
photographic pictures ?
Mr. Miller. I am very friendly with Mr. Anderson, but as far as
having anything to do with his business or ever supplying models
for anybody else, never. *
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever — excuse me.
Mr. Miller. I have never been connected with his business finan-
cially or any other way.
Chairman Kefauv^r. Get up closer to the microphone.
Mr. Miller. I have never been financially or any other way con-
nected with Mr. Anderson outside of being a friend. Wliy I was
brought — I would like to know why, because I know many attorneys,
I know fellows that are in the butcher business, automobile business,
doctors; and I am not associated with being a doctor because I am
around with them.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any type of business arrangement,
either financial or otherwise, with Mr. Anderson ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. BoBO. With Mr. Tom Cooper ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. BoBo. Do you know Mr. Tom Cooper ?
Mr. Miller. Very well.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any type of business arrangement
or financial arrangement or otherwise with Mr. Gerald Duke ?
Mr. Miller. I sold him some equipment and lent him $100 at one
time to pay rent on a building that he opened, and gave him supplies
at that particular time when I was running an auction business with
photographic equipment. This was several years ago.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Duke was engaged in a photographic studio?
Mr. Miller. He opened one on Sunset Boulevard.
Mr. BoBO. What type of equipment was it that you furnished ?
Mr. Miller. I sold him a printer, a developing tank, some darkroom
lights, and I think some paper, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. BoBO. Were you paid for that material at the time at which
you sold it to him ?
Mr. Miller. Not yet.
Mr. BoBO. You haven't been paid?
Mr. Miller. I was paid $40 on $180. ...
Mr. BoBO. When was it you gave him this material or sold him
this material ?
Mr. Miller. I think approximately 31/2 or 4 years ago.
Mr. BoBO. You also lent him $100 with which to establish his
business ?
Mr. Miller. To pay the rent, which was paid back to me.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever received from either Mr. Anderson or
^Nlr. Tom Cooper or ]Mr. Gerald Duke any of the girl photographs from
them ?
Mr. Miller. Yes ; plenty of them.
Mr. BoBO. You received these for your own personal use ?
Mr. Miller. Absolutely.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 399
Mr, BoBO. How many photographs would you say you had received
from Mr. Anderson ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I couldn't say that because I have got pictures of
practically every model that M'as ever in the city.
Mr. BoBO. Are these pictures of the nude variety or strip variety
of pictures ?
Mr. Miller. Some are and some aren't. A lot of it is color and
third dimensional.
Mr. BoBO. Approximately how many photographs of girls and
models would you say that you had in your possession, Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. Probably 10,000.
Mr. BoBO. Have you also in your possession or have you received
from Mr. Anderson, Mr. Cooper, or Mr. Duke any moving-picture
films?
Mr. Miijler. Never.
Mr. BoBO. Do you have in your possession any moving-picture films
showing a nude woman ?
Mr. Miller. No. Pinup models. I have maybe 5 or 6 hundred-foot
reels.
Mr. BoBO. Five or six
Mr. Miliar. With a hundred feet on each one of them, because
1 haven't got a projector and I don't use them.
Mr. BoBO. May I ask you, Mr. Miller, what do you do with all these
pictures ?
Mr. Miller. I got them as a collection, because I shoot a lot of
pictures myself.
Mr. BoBO. Do you also, yourself, shoot pictures of models and
women ?
Mr. Miller. Very seldom. I have, but I haven't — I wouldn't say
over a dozen models in my life.
Mr. BoBo. Have you ever shot pictures of women in the nude ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. BoBo. Wliat was the purpose of these pictures ?
Mr. Miller. I took them as pinups and also as calendar color shots.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever either given or sold any of these thousands
of pictures that you have away ?
Mr. Miller. I have given them to some friends of mine, but never
sold one in my life.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Miller, do you also go under the name of Mr. G. L..
Seymour?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever gone under the name of G. L. Seymour?
Mr. Miller. That may have been on a check maybe years ago. I
w^ouldn't say that. That has been many years ago, if it was.
Chairman Kefattver. Well, did you ever? That is the question.
Was that ever an alias that you had ?
Mr. Miller. I won't say "Yes" and 1 won't say "No," because I
really don't remember.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever gone under an alias ?
Mr. Miller. That was — yes, years ago.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever gone under the alias of Fred Williams?
400 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Miller, Well, I don't think 1 will answer any more questions
like that without an attorney. That has got nothing to do with what
this particular thing is about, and I know nothing about it, what
3'ou called me for.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Miller, you came up here and
wanted to testify.
Mr. Miller. I wanted to know why I was called up here.
Chairman Kefauver. We wanted to give you a chance.
Mr. Miller. I have a perfect right to ask that question, I think.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Miller, I Avill tell you why you
were called. We have information of your activities with these
people, and you have a record back here beginning in Elizabeth,
K J., on November 14, 1918.
Mr. Miller. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. And you are very closely associated with
these people in this business. Mr. Bobo has some other questions to
^sk you.
Mr. Miller. Well, I
Chairman Kefauver. So we are not doing you any harm by just
subpenaing you up here. You have been charged with everything in
the books.
Mr. Miller. That is why I want to make it clear that I have nothing
to do with this particular business, and I would like you to know
that. That is one reason
Chairman Kefauver. What is your present business^
Mr. Miller. Well, I deal in jewelry and appliances.
Chairman Kefauver. What is the name of your business?
Mr. Miller. I am at Metropolitan Building, 315 West Fifth Street.
Chairman Kefauver. Have you got a big business ?
Mr. Miller. No. I work out of another office now. In my place
the business was discontinued in 1950
Chairman Kefauver. What is your annual income, Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. Probably around six thousand, sixty-five hundred.
Chairman Kefauver. Would you be interested to know that you
only reported $1,600 ?
Mr. Miller. When was this?
Chairman Kefatts^r. 1954.
Mr. Miller. That was after everything was deducted. I think
you will find that.
Chairman Kefauver. That seems to be the gross amount you report.
Mr. Miller. No. The auditors do it. Whatever it is, I wouldn't
say.
Chairman Kefauver. $1,600, and you have got a 1954 Cadillac.
Mr. Miller. I got what ?
(^hairman Kefauver. Don't you have a Cadillac?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. A 1954 Cadillac?
Mr. Miller. No.
Chairman Kefauver. 1953.
Mr. Miller. But
Chairman Kefauver. 1953?
Mr. Miller. My particular things that was taken in tlie audit was
over $6,000 last year. I brought my records. I wanted them looked
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 401
over; but I don't know what it is all about, because I have nothing
to do with this particular line of business at all. Never have had.
1 have never sold a picture in my life and don't have any financial
dealings with them at all.
Mr. BoBO. But you have had an association with people who did
deal with and sell this material ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I know them, but I have never — never was in
the business myself.
Mr. BoBO. You did also furnish the photographic equipment
Mr. Miller. A sink
Mr. BoBO. Some material to a man who 3 or 4 years ago — who hasn't
paid you for it ?
Mr. Miller, Yes.
Mr. BoBO. What was the value of this material ?
Mr. Miller. It only came to $180 — something, plus $100 that I
lent him in cash, which was paid back to me.
Mr. BoBO. Were the pictures that you received in payment on the
equipment which you had furnished to him ?
Mr. Miller. Xo. No. No. I was paid back $20 at a time.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, did you make plans to start a photog-
raphy business with Ray Porter, Mr, Miller ?
Mr. Miller. Pardon ?
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know Mr. Ray Porter ?
Mr. ]\Iiller. No.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't know him ?
Mr. Miller. Never heard of him.
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Miller, have you ever known or associated with a
Mr. Jack Dragna ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, I know Mr. Dragna very well.
Mr. BoBO. What was the nature of your association with Mr.
Dragna ^
Mr. Miller. I knew him many years ago in prohibition days.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done any business with Mr. Dragna ?
Mr. Miller. Never,
Mr, BoBO. Do you know a Mr. Momo Adamo ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, I do.
Mr, BoBO, What has been your association with Mr, Adamo?
Mr, Miller. I haven't talked to the man 5 times in the last 10 years.
Mr. BoBO. Did you previously have an association or business ar-
rangement with him ?
Mr. Miller. Never.
Mr. BoBO. Do you know Mr. Lou Cohen ?
Mr, Miller. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever have any business association or connection
■with him ?
Mr. Miller, That was — he run the auction sales, if that is the Lou
Cohen you mean,
Mt. Bobo. Wliich auction sales, auction sales for you and your com-
pany ?
Mr. Miller. Yes. That is when I went out of business.
Mr. Bobo. Do you know a Dr. William De Orgler ?
Mr. Miller. "\Vliat is the name ?
402 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. Dr. William De Orgler, D-e 0-r-g-l-e-r. He goes un-
der the name of Captain Zita, Z-i-t-a.
Mr. Miller, I know who he is. He used to — he used to book acts at
the old Florentine Gardens several years ago. I never^ — —
Mr. BoBO. You never had any transactions with him at any time ?
Mr. Miller. Just barely knew him to say hello to him.
Mr. BoBO. My. Miller, have you ever had any association with any
of the girls who had posed for nude pictures or posed for nude moving
pictures ?
Mr. Miller. I have had lots of them to dinner ; yes.
Mr, BoBO. Have you in any way ever offered any type of business
arrangement with any of these girls '?
Mr, Miller. No, AVliat do you mean by "business arrangement ?"^
Mr. BoBO. Did you ever arrange with them to be photogi'aphed
even by yourself or by others ?
Mr. JNIiLLER. I have taken pictures of several of them ; yes.
Mr, BoBo. How extensive has been your taking of pictures of nude
models ?
Mr. Miller. Only the ones that I still have in my own collection.
That is all. The same as dozens of others that take them. I have
never sold them, and of the ones that I got, I still have.
Mr. BoBO, Do you pay these girls for taking the pictures ?
Mr, Miller, Naturally.
Mr. BoBO. What is the amount paid for the model ?
Mr. IMiLLER. $5 an hour, I haven't shot any for a couple of years.
Mr, BoBO. From whom do you receive tlie names of the girls who
would pose for nude pictures ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, there is the Andy Agency and several others.
Mr. BoBO. Who operates the Andy Agency ?
Mr. Miller. INIr. Frank Anderson.
Mr. BoBO. Frank Anderson. Who else have you ever received or
ordered a model from ?
Mr. Miller. None in particular ; only I have had them call me want-
ing to to know if I was going to shoot,
Mr. BoBO, You have never taken pictures of any girls other than
from Frank Anderson, the Andy Agency ?
Mr. Miller, I have taken pictures of other girls, but not from any
other agency,
Mr, BoBO, How would you make your contact then ?
Mr. Miller. They call you. The models call for work.
Mr, BoBO, What happens to the negatives of the pictures which you
take, Mr, Miller?
Mr, Miller. Mine are all in color and there is no negative. It
comes back from Eastman through the Eastman process laboratory;
returns the film to you already done up,
Mr. BoBO, And you take pictures of nudes and forward them to the
Eastman Kodak Agency and they return them to you in color,
developed ?
Mr, Miller, That is correct,
Mr, BoBO. Do you send these pictures through the United States
mail ?
Mr. Miller. It doesn't go through the mail at all. It is delivered
down on Orange Drive and Santa Monica Boulevard.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 403
Mr. BoBo. The Eastman Kodak Co. office ?
Mr. Miller. The Eastman Kodak Co. office.
Mr. BoBO. On Orange Drive ?
Mr. Miller. That is right. When yon buy your Hhn, it automati-
cally goes back to them for development and is returned to you.
Mr. BoBO. Are they returned to you in slide form or in picture
form ?
Mr. Miller. In slide form.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever done business with the Ansco Co. or any
of the other film companies ?
Mr. Miller. No ; never.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever had any difficulty in having any of the
color shots which you might take — having them processed?
Mr. jSIiller. I haven't had any trouble with them. I get my slides
back. I think once or twice they have punched holes in them; but
outside of that, I have gotten all mine back. In fact, Eastman will
not return it unless it is allowed to go through the mail if necessary.
Mr. BoBO. They are pictures of nude women ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. BoBO. Do you make any determined effort to see that certain
parts of the anatomy are not shown ?
Mr. Miller. If you didn't do that, you wouldn't have any pictures.
Mr. BoBO. Well, Mr. Miller, where did the girls who posed for these
pictures for you receive your name, to know tliat you are photograph-
ing them ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I think that gets around among the girls them-
selves. I know dozens of people, and if I want to get an attorney,
I would know where to go and get him ; or if I wanted to find any
particular thing. Those girls, I imagine, would look up somebody
that shoots pictures, the same as you would look up a certain grocer or
someone else.
Mr. BoBO. Have you ever taken any pictures of any models that
were under 21 years of age ?
Mr. Miller. Not that I know of.
Mr. BoBO. Have you questioned them about their age ?
Mr. Miller. Yes. They will all say that they are more than that
or older and sign a slip to that effect.
Mr. BoBO. What is the nature of the slip wdiich they sign?
Mr. Miller. They sign their model's release which says that they
are 21 years of age.
Mr. BoBO. It also states on that that they have no objection to it
being sold ?
Mr. Miller. That is right ; but I never sold a picture and wouldn't.
I have them for my own collection the same as others.
Mr. BoBO. Did you draw up your own model's release?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. BoBO. From whom do you receive the model's releases?
Mr. Miller. You can get them most any place,
Mr. BoBO. How many girls did you say you thought you had
photographed ?
Mr. Miller. I will say all together, in a period of 5 years, I haven't
photographed over 20.
65263—55 27
404 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. BoBO. And you made extensive photographs of these 20, great
numbers of photograplis ^
Mr. Miller. No; I wouldn't say that.
Mr. BoBO. And yet your name has gotten around among all the
model agencies and among all the models in town that you pose
j^eople for pictures ?
Mr. JMiLLER. That is correct.
Mr. BoBO. How much of the total part of your total income in
the past 5 years would you say you spent on model's fees ?
Mr. Miller. In the last 5 years?
Mr. BoBO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Miller. Probably $250 or $300, possibly.
Mr. BoBO. And you pay them $3 an hour to $10 an hour ?
Mr. Miller. No ; never 10.
Mr. BoBO. What would be the value and wdiat have you got invested
in your collection of motion picture film and pictures that you have
at your home in your collection ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I have had a lot of pictures given to me. If
you went into that, I wouldn't know. I couldn't say that exactly.
Mr. BoBO. You have also purchased great numbers of them, haven't
you ?
Mr. Miller. No. I have traded some of the ones that I have had
for others.
Mr. BoBo. But you never
Mr. MiLUiR. In other words, if you would get several practically
id ike, you would trade them with someone else that shot a different
model.
Mr. BoBO. Where would you get the ones that you would trade?
Mr. Miller. Ones that I had taken.
Mr. BoBo. Ones that you had taken, how would they be like some
that other people had taken ^
Mr. Miller. Well, it could be a different setting. It could be on
the ocean beach or it could be up in Big Bear or somewhere else. It
could be in dozens of different places.
Mr. BoBO. Approximately how many pictures do you have, Mr.
Miller?
Mr. Miller. Probably 10,000.
Mr. BoBO. And you have taken all of those yourself except the
few that have been given to you ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, I wouldn't say — 99 percent of the ones that I
have, have been taken by someone else.
Mr. BoBO. And all of them given to you?
Mr. Miller. A lot of them have been given to me ; yes.
IVtr. BoBO. Have you ever purchased any of them ?
Mr. Miller. No, I haven't.
Mr. BoBO. Where did the rest of them come from that you did not
take yourself and were not given to you ?
Mr. Miller. Say that over again ?
Mr. BoBO. Well, you said that you had approximately 10,000;
that 99 percent of them were taken by somebody else, that some of
them had been given to you. The rest of them, where did they come
from?
juvenilf: delinquency 405
Mr. Miller. The ones that I took myself.
Mr. BoBO. ^Miich accounts for 1 percent?
Mr, Miller. Well, I have taken more than 1 percent of them.
Mr. BoBO. All I am trying to arrive at, you have either had 9,000
uiven to you or 1,000 you have made yourself. Is that correct?
Mr. Miller. That is about right.
Mr. BoBO. Who gives you all of these pictures?
Mr. Miller. Well, Aiidy has given me some.
Mr, BoBO. How many has he given you ?
Mr. Miller. Copper has given me a lot.
Mr. BoBO. Plow many has Mr. Anderson given you?
Mr. Miller. Several thousand.
Mr. BoBO. For what reason would Mr. Anderson give you several
thousand pictures?
Mr. Miller. Because I am around him all the time. I go out to
his place quite often, practically every day.
Mr. BoBO. He is in the business of selling pictures, isn't he, sir?
Mr. Miller. He doesn't sell pictures.
Mr. BoBO. There is a value placed on these pictures, cost to him?
Mr. Miller. Well, I gave him a lot of paper at one time when I
was in the auction business ; but, of course, a 4 by 5 piece of paper costs
approximately 1 penny.
Mr. BoBO. You gave' Mr. Anderson quite a bit of photographic
paper?
Mr. Miller. When I run the auction places ; yes, sir.
Mr. BoBo. Did he ever pay you for it ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. BoBO. You had no arrangement with him, except to give him
l^hotographic paper ?
Mr. MiLLFJi. That is right; and I gave him what you would call
paper that is outdated, which is still good. You can get it on the
stands today, and buy a box of paper which is approximately worth
$18 or $20 when it is in date. You can buy that same paper for
$3.50 or $4.
Mr. BoBO. So for a small quantity of outdated paper he has given
you three or four thousand photographs of nude women, for wdiich
he paid models to pose and which he developed himself?
Mr. Miller. I don't think he has to pay the models to pose. He
runs their agency and he has their agency and books the girls for
photographers; and they carry their pictures in the place as more
■or less an exhibit,
Mr. BoBO. Well, from wdiom else have you received pictures?
Mr. Miller. I have received pictures from dozens of different ones,
the photographers that take them. Tom Cooper.
Mr. BoBO. Well, for what reason does Mr. Cooper give you pictures ?
Mr. Mn.LER, Well, for the same reason that if I had anything that
he wanted, he could have it, too.
Mr. BoBO. That is a rather loose arrangement. Do you think I
could go down and he would give me some, too?
Mr. Miller. Chances are he would ; yes.
Mr. BoBO. What is the purpose of the taking of these pictures?
406 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. I didn't understand. You say you gave him
pictures ?
Mr. Miller. I have given him pictures.
Chairman Kefauver. Did j^ou give Andy pictures, too?
Mr. Miller. Pardon ?
Chairman Kefauver. Do you give the other people pictures, too?
Mr. Miller. I have given pictures, too.
Chairman Kefauver. So your pictures are getting circulated
around, too ?
]Mr. ]\Iiller. They don't get circulated around like that. They are
making a collection of them. They are not for sale.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you keej3 these for showing at parties that
you have at your house? Is that the purpose of it?
Mr. Miller. No. 1 don't know just exactly why I have ever kept
them. I have got a hobby for saving pictures. I have taken pictures
in Florida since 1912 up until now with an old three-eight Eastman
years ago and still have them.
Chairman Kefau\^r. Do you have them in a file box, indexed so you
know exactly who they are?
INIr. INIiLLER. "Who they are ?
Chairman Kefauver. Indexed by their names.
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Chairman Kefau^'er. 10,000 in an index? ■
Mr. Miller. I think so. Close to that. I have never counted them,
so I don't really know.
Chairman KErAU\^R. Do you have a couple of big safes or file
cabinets ?
Mr. Miller. I have a filing cabinet.
Chairman Kefauver. Do you keep it locked ?
Mr. Miller. Sure.
Chairman Kefauver. What do you keep in these safes, just pictures ?
Mr. Miller. They are not safes, they are filing cabinets.
Chairman Kefauver. Just full of pictures ?
]\Ir. Miller. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Don't you have a couple of safes, too?
Mr. Miller. I have one safe in my store.
Chairman Kefauver. You don't have one at your home?
Mr. Miller. I have one that is empty. You can go up and look
at it. They searched the place the night that the subpena was issued.
They came to my door and asked me if I had any pictures, with an
excuse that they wanted to investigate a robbeiy that was in my home
a year ago last October. When they came in I said, "What do you
want?"
They said, "We really want to know about your pictures."
I said, "Go right through the house and look at anything you
want" ; which they did.
Chairman Kefauver. Are you acquainted with j\Ir. Door?
Mr. Miller. I know who he is. I don't know the man well. I have
seen him several times. Don't know him personally, no.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 407
Chairman Kefauver. Do you know the Tagers ?
Mr. Miller. Never seen them until this morning.
Chairman Kefauver. Or the Alberts? Do you know them?
Mr. Miller. Don't know them at all.
Chairman Kefau\^r. Do you want to look this over, sir, and see if
you think it is substantially correct ?
Well, let's see. We have one
Mr. Miller. This is something I know nothing about, what you
have here [indicating] . Wliat is this ?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, that is just the stenographer's name
that copied it down here. Maybe we had better hand you the original.
Maybe you will recognize that better.
Mr. Miller. This is all correct. Wliat is the last? What is the
last page ?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, the last page, I will read it. Well,
the last page on this one is the allegation that you have been
Mr. Miller. Subpenaed here.
Chairman Kefauver. No ; that you have been engaged in this por-
nographic material, that you have been partners in this business with
Andy Anderson, Tom Cooper, Gerald Duke ; that you have two filing
cabinets full of pictures, card indexes ; that you exchange them with
other people; that you have parties at your home, bringing them in
to see the pictures ; that
Mr, Miller. That is a lie.
Chairman Kefauver. That you take a lot of lewd pictures and
nude pictures.
Mr. Miller. I said that's a lie.
Chairman Kefauver. But outside of this part at the bottom, you
think that this is fairly correct?
Mr. Miller. This is absolutely correct.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, let's take this one that is correct.
Then this one also says that among the films that you have stock-
piled, including one, "Gentleman in Paradise," is that correct, do you
think?
Mr. Miller. It is not correct.
Chairman Kefai'ver. Well, this what you say here is correct •
Mr. Miller. In that [indicating], yes.
Chairman Kefauver. Starts you back at Elizabeth, N. J., on No-
vember 14, 1918 ?
Mr. Miller. I won't answer any more questions in regard to that.
I think I can stand on my rights to that effect. That has nothing to
do with this.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, anyway, in New Jersey and Massa-
chusetts and Ohio and Illinois?
Mr. Miller. I am aware of that. Senator. I told you that is cor-
rect.
Chairman Kefauver. Very well. This is correct. We will let it
be filed as an exhibit to your testimony.
408
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
(The police record of William Miller was marked "Exhibit No. 42^**
and reads as follows:)
Miller, Bill, LA No. 138057.
True name : Miller, William J.
Alias : Seymour, G. L.
Alias : Williams, Fred.
Record
Number
Date
Charge and disposition
Police Department, Elizabeth, N. J.
Nov.
14, 1918
Charge of fugitive; turned over to
police department, Boston, Mass.
Nov.
22, 1918
Arrested Boston, Mass., on charge of
larceny of auto.
State Reformatory, Concord Junc-
21659
Jan.
11, 1920
R. S. Q., 5 years, Indicted; paroled
tion, Mass.
Jan. 9, 1920;" TOT Columbus, Ohio,.
No. 4551; Mar. 31, 1920, committed
to Ohio State Reformatory for
larceny.
Police Department, Columbus, Ohio.
5258
Mar.
31. 1920
Grand larcency, WEGJ $1,000 and
taken to Franklin County, Ohio,.
jail; on Jan. 12, 1920, sent to the
State reformatory.
Police Department, Philadelphia,
53384
June
23, 1922
Attempted larceny — larceny of auto.
Pa.
for New York City Police Depart-
ment. Escaped while being taken
into custody; apprehended June 23,.
1922.
Confidence game (bogus checks) . Sent
Police Department, Aurora, 111
Jan.
26, 1924
to the State penitentiary.
State Penitentiary, Joliet, 111-.-
9001
Mar.
5, 1924
Confidence game; 1-10 years; Mar. 8,.
1929, discharged.
Police Department, Brazil, Ind
16
Apr.
1, 1929
Forgery; broke jail Apr. 4, 1929.
Police Department, Fitchburg, Mass.
Jan.
9, 1931
Uttering, 15 counts; 18 months House
of Correction, Worcester, Mass.
Police Department, Tampa, Fla
3092
Jan.
17, 1932
Inv. fugitive and jail break.
Police Department, Boston, Mass...
33490
Nov.
14, 1933
Larceny, worthless checks; released tO'
Springfield, Mass.
Forgery; 60 days House of Correction.
Police Department, Springfield,
4740
do
Mass.
Jail and House of Correction, Spring-
Nov.
15. 1933
Forgery; Dec. 26, 1933—60 days and ■ ,
field, Mass.
leased.
Police Department, Holyoke, Mass..
Feb.
8, 1934
Larceny by check; sent to House o
Correction for 2 months.
Police Department, New Haven,
4349
Apr.
21. 1934
Fraud, checks, 3 counts; 1 month on
Conn.
each count.
Police Department, Cleveland, Ohio-
42678
May
5, 1934
Issued check to deft; June 16, 1934, Ohio
State Penitentiary.
State Penitentiary, Columbus, Ohio.
68440
June
20. 1934
Check to defraud; 1-3 years.
Police Department, Dayton, Ohio...
13404
June
19, 1937
Fraudulent check; July 23, 1937, 1 year;
paroled .
Police Department, Miami, Fla
CR-248
Nov
2r), 1939
Crim. Reg. (Vol.); released.
Do... .
20214
CR-331
17589
Nov. 28,1939
do
Jan. 10, 1943
Vol. Crim. Reg.; released.
Sheriff's Office, Miami, Fla
Crim. Reg.; released.
Police Department, San Diego, Calif-
Sec. 593B, Tariff Act; released to U. S.
Customs.
Sheriff's OflSce, San Diego
84479
Jan.
11,1943
Smuggling; released on bond posted
with U. S. Commissioner.
Police Department, Los Angeles
2097-W-18
July
27, 1943
Sec. 242, Police Code, battery; dis-
missed.
Burglary; relaesed on bail.
Sheriff's office, Los Angeles
A-49435
B-39359
B-40067
Oct.
Oct.
Oct.
25, 1944
22, 1947
28, 1947
Do
Suspicion, Dangerous Weapons Act,
Do
sec. 2.
Violating dangerous weapons control
law of 1923, Dangerous Weapons Act
19.70; 2 counts.
In addition to the connections of Bill Miller shown in the rundowns of Andy
Anderson and Bill Door, the foUowiu^^ information is from observance of his
activities over a period of approximately 6 years.
He first came to attention upon information received as to his being involved
in receiving of stolen jewelry. In investigating this activity, it was discovered
that subject was a constant associate of known prostitutes and persons involved
in lewd and perverted activities. It is believed that he first made associates of
photograpliers and model agencies, in order to obtain girls for the many parties
and entertaining that took place at his house. Later, subject became more aware
of the possibility of financial gains in this field ; consequently, backing persons
such as Andy Anderson, Tom Cooper, and Gerald Duke in model agencies and
photo studios.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 409
Subject has stockpiled in filing: cabinets in bis home and 2 safes what appear
to be many thousands of photographs of girls listed alphabetically by name,
which includes anywhere from 5 to 50 pictures of each pose, which would tend
to show that this is more than a collection of a hobbyist ; also many rolls of
moving picture films, including one entitled "Gentlemen in Paradise."
At present it is known that subject owns most of the equipment used by Andy
Anderson.
Mr. Miller. But what about the other evi deuce that you have on
the back page ? I would like to know about that.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, if you want me
Mr. Miller. "Wlio gives that information and says that I am con-
nected with them ? Because I am friendly with them, does that say
that 1 am in business with them?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, this is information that has been
gotten up.
Mr. Miller. Well, by whom ?
Chainnan Kefauver. Well, anyway, it is in our files, Mr. Miller.
If you want me to read it to you, I will read it to you.
Mr. Miller. I would love you to read it.
Chairman Kefauver. This explains, I suppose, in addition to this
general criminal record, in 8 or 9 states, everything from burglary to
larceny
Mr. Miller. There is no burglary. I beg your pardon.
Chairman Kefauver. Forgery, worthless checks
Mr. Miller. I refuse to answer any more of your questions.
Chairman Kefauver. Smuggling. Is this true, that the 31 arrests
or convictions in many, many States? Isn't that about right?
Mr. Miller. I have told you that is correct, but why is that
Chairman Kefauver. I will read this
Mr. Miller. You are trying to bring up things that I know nothing
about.
Chairman Kefauver, This may give you some indication of why
you were called, and I will read it, and then you can say whether it is
true or not,
Mr. Miller, That is right. That is all I want to find out.
Chairman Kefaitver (reading) :
In addition to the connections with Bill Miller shown in the rundowns of Andy
Anderson and Bill Door, following information is from observances of his activi-
ties over a period of approximately 6 years :
First came to the attention upon Information received as his being involved
in receiving stolen jewelry.
I suppose that is not
Mr. Miller. Was I ever tried or brought up to arrest ?
Chairman Kefauver. Well, is that correct?
Mr. Miller. I asked you a question. You may answer me. Did I
ever
Chairman Kefauver. Well, you asked me to read this to you, and I
am going to read it to you. Do you want me to read it to you ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Chairman Kefauver (reading) :
Investigating this activity it was discovered that subject was a constant asso-
ciate of known prostitutes and persons involved in lewd and perverted activities.
If you want to make any comments along as I read, you can do so.
Mr. Miller. Well, I resent that.
Chairman KEFAUva^.R. Well, you asked me to read it, sir.
410 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Mr. Miller. N'o. I say I want you to read it, but you told me just
now to answer you on it, and that is what I did.
Chairman KEFAU^^R. All right. You say you resent that. [Read-
ing:]
It is believed that he first made associates of photograpliers and model
agencies in order to obtain girls for the many parties, entertainment that took
place at his house.
Any comment?
Mr. Miller. That isn't so. I know a lot of girls and go out with a
lot of them. I don't see any harm in that ; do you ?
Chairman KErAu\T:R. Well, you asked me to read it, and you an-
swered.
Later he became more aware of the possibility of financial gains in this field,
consequently backing persons such as Andy Anderson, Tom Cooper, and Gerald
Duke
Mr. Miller. Wait. Where did they get the idea that I backed them,
can you find that out ? Bring them up here for that investigation.
Chairman KErAU\TER. Well, you rented them a place, you sold them
film.
Mr. Miller. I lent him a hundred dollars. If you lend a man $100,
regardless of what he does with it is none of my business.
Chairman Kefauver. You gave him photographic equipment.
Mr. Miller. I sold him equipment. Don't every store sell them?
Chairman Kefaus^er. They haven't paid you for it?
]\lr. Miller. I still have got it coming, I guess.
Chairman Kefauver. Gerald Duke
Mr. Miller. I have been paid part of it. That is the only man that
never paid me.
Chairman KEFAu^^ER. Well, you just asked me to read this, and you
make any explanation that you want. [Reading :]
And Gerald Duke and model agencies and photo studios. He has stockpiled in
filing cabinets in his home and two safes what appear to be many thousands of
photographs of girls listed alphabetically by name, which includes anywhere from
5 to 50 pictures of each pose, which would tend to show that this is more than a
collection of a hobbyist.
Do you have different pictures of each pose?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Senator, with due respect to you, I think one of
our most prominent men in the country today has a much finer and a
bigger collection than I will ever have.
Chairman Kefauver. We are just talking about you. I am just
talking about what you have. [Reading:]
Also many reels of moving-picture film, including one entitled "Gentleman in
Paradise." It is alleged that he owns most of the equipment used by Andy
Anderson.
Now, most of this is not true ?
Mr. Miller. I didn't say that. I said that I gave Andy the equip-
ment that is in there. The equipment that was taken from Duke's
place was turned over to Mr. Anderson, because they were together at
that particular time.
Chairman Ivefauver. Do you own your own home ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Chairman Kefau\'er. You do have a large, elaborate home, don't
you?
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 411
Mr. Miller. I wouldn't say that it is elaborate.
Chairman Kefauver. How large is it? n i t^- w
Mr. Miller. What you can get for eighty-five hundred. J^iglit
thousand seven fifty is what it cost me when I bought it in 1942.
Chairman Kefauver. What do you think it is worth today? ^
Mr. Miller. I don't know. I never wanted to sell it. It isn t paid
for to begin with. I took a loan on it, though, of eleven thousand
here 21/2 years ago.
Chairman Kefauver. Anything else you
Mr. Miller. Which I was obliged to do.
All I want to do is find out why they bothered me about these things.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. Miller, it ought to be quite apparent
to you why you have been called here. You have a criminal record
going back to 1918.
Mr. Miller. Everybody else that
Chairman Kefauver. Consisting of thirty-odd arrests or convic-
tions of all kinds of things.
Mr. I^IiLLER. Was I ever arrested for anything like you are calling
Chairman Kefauver. I haven't gone over these closely. I really
don't know. But I can go over them closely if you want me to.
Mr. Miller. It isn't necessary ; but all I say is that the thing that
is here, that I don't think I should have been called up here. I don't
see any reason for it. • ■> 0
("hairman Kefauvfji. What is this smuggling conviction here ?
Mr. Miller. For bringing perfume across the border from Mexico.
Chairman Kefau-\/er. Well, you don't want me to read all these, do
you ?
Mr. Miller. It isn't necessary. -r^- tt • j
Chairman Kefauver. Here is another one: San Diego, United
States Customs, Tariff Act.
Mr. Miller. That is the very same thing.
Chairman Kefauver. Here is another one, 1947. That was in 1943.
Here is 1947. Was that the same thing ?
Mr. Miller. It couldn't be 1947.
Chairman Kefauver. I mean, the same kind of charge?
Mr. Miller. It couldn't be in 1947 ; I beg your pardon.
Chairman Kefaupv^er. Well, 10-22^7— no ; that is DW. That is the
Dangerous Weapons Act ; isn't it ?
Mr. IVIiLLER. That is right.
Chairman Kefauver. IVliat was this ?
Mr. Miller. There was a gun in my home because I had been robbed
3 different times and burglarized 4 times, and I got a rifle in my home
and a pistol in case I was held up again or stuck up.
Chairman Kefauver. You came out here from Miami, Fla., in
1939 ; didn't you ?
Mr. Miller. That is right. . . ,
Chairman Kefau\^r. And you went from Ohio to Florida ; is that
right?
Mr. Miller. That is right. _ m • •
Chairman Kefauver. And you went from Connecticut to Ohio; is
that right?
Mr. SliLLER. That is right.
412 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
Chairman Kefauver. And you went from Massachusetts to Con-
necticut.
Mr. Miller. That was all in one series, without being released.
Chairman Kefauver. And you went from Illinois to Massachusetts ;
is that correct ?
Mr. MiLrj:R. Well, has that any bearing on this case ?
Chairman Kefauver. I am just asking you about it.
Well, of course, the reason you were called is that you were shown
to have close associations with these people. You have a very large
collection — 10,000 pictures.
Mr. Miller. I don't see any harm in having those.
Chairman Kefauver. That is unusual. Well, it is a little unusual.
Mr. Miller. Other people make a collection of having stamps or
coins.
Chairman Kefauver. And you take pictures, you give them out to
other people. They might get them in circulation.
Mr. Miller. I take pictures of the Eose Bowl and the bullfights.
Chairman Kefauver. So I think that we were quite justified in
calling you, Mr. Miller. We are glad to have your explanation about
them.
Mr. Miller. About those things, I know nothing about them, only
what I have told you now. I will make it clear that I do not have
any affiliation with them so far as the business end is concerned.
Chairman Kefauver. You are just not in that sort of business?
Mr. Miller. Pardon ?
Chairman Kefauver. That is just not one of your businesses?
Mr. MiLiiER. That is correct.
Chairman Kefauver. All right, Mr. Miller. Thank you for saying
you will testify.
Is there anybody else who wants to testify today ?
Well, our final witness
Mr. De Muth. Mr. Senator
Chairman Kefauver. Yes, sir.
Mr. De Muth. Would it be possible to get this over with today?
Is that what you are asking?
Chairman Kefauver. What is vour name?
Mr. De Muth. De Muth.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. De Muth, there hasn't been very much
said about you here, has there?
Mr. De Mui'h. No, sir ; but, see, I am gainfully employed as a car-
penter to support my family. It does take time.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, Mr. De Muth, we would rather let you
know when to come back again sometime.
Mr. De Muth. That is perfectly all right, sir. You asked the
question.
Chairman KErAu\TER. You were subpenaed here. You will get, I
guess, a per diem for the time you have been attending.
Our last witness will be Mr. James F. Nelson.
All right, Mr. Bobo. You ask Mr. Nelson.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 413
TESTIMONY OF JAMES F. NELSON, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY,
COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
Mr. BoBO. Mr. Nelson, would you give us your name, your address,
:and your present position for the record? ^
Mr. Nelson. James F. Nelson. I reside at 11732 Missouri Avenue
in West Los Angeles. „ , ^ <• -r a i
I am now a deputy district attorney for the County of Los Angeles.
Mr. BoBO. Working in the district attorney's office of Los Angeles
County, did you handle the case involving Mr. Alberts and his wife,
Mrs. Alberts ?
Mr. Nelson. I did, sir.
Chairman Kefauver. Suppose we don't repeat the testimony that
has been given before, only new matters to be brought up. Mr. Bobo is
trying to get a plane, I think, here at 5 o'clock.
Mr. BoBO. Thank you.
In investigating and determining this case, Mr. Nelson, did you
receive complaints or letters of complaints from parents that their
children had been receiving advertisements for this particular type
of literature? ^ -r^. • * o
Mr. Nelson. Yes, sir; through the office of District Attorney b.
Ernest Roll on the 18th day of February 1955, I was contacted by
JSIr. Roll, who brought to me at that time a packet of letters which he
had through the latter months of 1954 received from various parts
of the country, and manv of which included reference to the receipt
by juveniles of brochures of advertising from the Male Merchandise
Mart, operated by Mr. Alberts. It was at that time that Mr. Roll
instructed me to take action in connection with this matter.
Mr. BoBO. In the prosecution of this case, to what extent would you
say the Alberts business was, financially ?
Mr. Nelson. From the records that we had obtained as a result
of the search warrants that were issued for the three premises which
were searched, we have been able to estimate that approximately a
gross of $40,000 to $50,000 a month business was done by Mr. Alberts
and his wife under the name of APR Industries, Inc. He also
operates-
Chairman Kefau\t3r. You mean $600,000 a year, something like
that?
Mr. Nelson. Approximately, sir, yes ; and I think we can say from
the records that we had that this could be a conservative estimate.
The business, as I have stated, was in the name of APR Industries.
He also operated under various other names, to wit. Paragon Enter-
prises, Male Merchandise Mart, Sailer Jock's Stag Shop, and I think
there are one or two others which I can't recall at this time.
Mr. BoBO. In the prosecution of this case Mr. Alberts was convicted
and Mrs. Alberts was released ?
Mr. Nelson. That is correct, sir.
Mr. BoBO. What is the reason on this particular case, was she in-
volved in the business with him ?
Mr. Nelson. She actually, according to the records of APR Indus-
tries, was the only member of the family connected with the corpora-
tion. I believe she was secretary -treasurer and was definitely involved
in the business. However, there is a case in California dealing with
the prosecution of misdemeanors, which the counts that we had alleged
414 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
against Mr. and Mrs. Alberts were, that where the evidence shows
that a wife is involved in a misdemeanor under the direction and con-
trol of the husband, it is presumed that she has been coerced by the
husband; and for that reason the judge dismissed the counts as
against Mrs. Alberts.
Mr. BoBO. Under this indictment which they were brought, it was
a misdemeanor, would it be of help to people in a position such as
yourself, if the penalties could be strengthened and the charge for this
raised to a felony or a more serious crime ?
Mr. Nelson. Speaking for myself and the information that was
gained through this experience, I can say definitely that it would be of
considerable benefit if the penalties were made more stringent. As
has been brought here before in these hearings, the usual type of
penalty is a fine less than a thousand dollars, perhaps some sus-
pended jail sentence; and when there is a gross business of the amount
that has been mentioned here, a small fine is not enough to stop the
enterprise.
Mr. BoBO. In the handling of this case was there any question in
your mind, your own mind, that the material which you were pre-
senting to the court was of a pornographic or of a lewd nature?
Mr. Nelson. We had, in conjunction with the members of the Los
Angeles Police Department and the sheriff's office, considered the
volume of evidence that was picked up pursuant to the search war-
rants and considered them thoroughly in the office, and were definitely
of the opinion that in the application to which these brochures and
mailing pieces were being applied, that they were obscene; and
especially as applied to juveniles that were more or less impressive or
impressionable, of that age. There were items that are before this
committee now which we had considered obscene in originally deter-
mining to file a complaint, and which the court has declared obscene
as of this moment, "Tina's Torture," which is before the committee,
having been one of them.
I have here also a book which was not mentioned, and was specific-
ally mentioned by the court, entitled "Sword of Desire," by Robert
W. Tracy, which was a part.
Mr. BoBO. Who is the publisher ?
Mr. Nelson. I believe that is also published by Arco — —
Mr. BoBO. Arco Publishing Co., New York 17, New York.
Mr. Nelson. The judge as well passed upon some of the stereo
slides which I believe this committee has, which we had previously
-determined went beyond the mere artistic values, and he has pro-
nounced a portion of the box of slides which you have there in his
opinion as being obscene.
Chairman Kefauver. Mr. Nelson, anything else 3'ou want to add
for our benefit ?
Mr. Nelson. I think that we have covered pretty much through
Mr. Sullivan's testimony and my own what we are able to submit
about Mr. Alberts, and in deference to Mr, Bobo and his airplane, I
think that would be all.
Mr. BoBO. Don't let that bother you, sir.
Mr. Nelson. I don't know of anything else that needs to be brought
out at this time.
Chairman Kefauver. Well, we thank you vei*y much for your
cooperation for your effort as a good law enforcement officer.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 415
Well, thise closes our hearino- for the time beiiip; in California. It
^vill be our intention to visit California again during the life of tliis
<'ommittee, and hear the witnesses who were not heard today, who
will remain under subpena, and to take up other aspects of problems
of juvenile delinquency. We will, of course, watch with interest
what happens out here between now and the time our committee has
the opportunity of returning.
I think these hearings have been among the most valuable that our
subcommittee has held in any part of the country. In these 4 days
Ave have heard about ?> separate phases of the juvenile-delinquency
problem.
On AVednesday distinguished Californians told us about the out-
standing work done here with juvenile delinquency; about the pro-
grams for the welfare of young ])eople, about the interests in the youth
in the State of (^Tlifornia. I think the enlightened program ap-
proach to rehabilitation of youngsters which we heard about deserves
conmiendation, and we ho])e tliat it will be promulgated in other
States and other sections of the Nation.
I have been particularly impressed with the youth-authority and
the forestry and ranch type rehabilitation programs; with indica-
tions in all parts of California that people are gathering together
themseb es at the grass-roots level to consider and to deal with and
do something about this problem.
We can say that the witnesses who have appeared here from Los
Angeles have shown a keen awareness of what should be done. They
ai-e working at it hard and intelligently, making good headway.
In the city of Los Angeles I think we have a good police force of
good, thoughtful people who are doing the best they can under the
circumstances. They themselves admit many difficulties they have
had. I think the suggestions made by Mr. Barnes should be given
a great deal of consideration locally. Greater public backing is^ of
course, necessaiy and will be the greatest cure; and the same goes
with the information we have had about the sheriff's office, about the
prosecutoi^, the district attorney's office. I think I can say without
hesitation if other States would emulate California, particularly in
the rehabilitation, the youth authority and other constructive pro-
grams, that we would be farther along in clearing up crime among
our young peo]ile.
\\Tiile there has been a substantial increase in juvenile delinquency
over the Nation, Governor Knight wired us that California was hold-
ing its own. There has been apparently some increase in Los Angeles,
but Chief Parker has told us that the increase has not been as large
avS the Dercentage increase of population.
We find present here about the same general problems in connectioji
with housing, schooling, recreation that we have found in other parts
of the country. I have been impressed with the awareness that adoles-
cents must have something more than slides and swings, and that these
places for their cars, the fact that clubs have been formed, have been
fine steps in the right direction.
Here in Los Angeles we have heard from people wdio undei-stand
the complicated problem, and they express a willingness to do some-
thing about it. They are working at it hard. They are to be com-
mended, and we want to give all possible encouragement to the good
city officials and county officials who appeared here before us.
416 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
On Thursday the movie industry explained to us the problems that
they have had in making and selling a motion picture. We have had
many criticisms from the public generally about crime and violence
and overplaying sex in some movies. This is not to be taken as a con-
demnation of the movie industry generally. I recognize the fact that
movies have been a great and good force in the education and enter-
tainment of people. I was impressed by the statement about chil-
dren's movies in the school, travel movies, made by Mr. Albright who
came here from Washington. I am impressed generally by the sin-
cerity and the willingness of the people in the movie industry to
cooperate with the findings of this committee; that they themselves
recognize that there has been too much crime, violence, brutality just
for brutality's sake in some pictures; and that beginning some time
back they have determined on their own to do something about it. I
think that generally the association of which Mr. Eric Johnston is
head and all parts of it is an outstanding organization. This, I
believe, is the best example of self-regulation of an industi-y of its own
accord that I know of, done because of public interest. I hope that
it will receive the fullest cooperation of producers and the members
of the industry all the way through.
The responsibility of the movie industry is a tremendous one. We
all understand the tremendous impact movies have upon our people,
upon our young people. It is not sufficient that they do a fairly good
job or mediocre job or even a good job, they must do an outstanding
one. Our study of the movie code was both penetrating and revealing.
1 think the industry is to be commended for applying a code of morals
to themselves, and generally both of these codes are well considered,
good codes. It is this type of regulation that prevents censorship, a
word that is repugnant to most of us, and certainly to me, at all times.
I want to make it clear that as far as the chairman is concerned, that
I am not in favor of censorship of the movies. I don't like censorship.
I think self-regulation, focusing public opinion so as to bring about
improvement is, however, the surest guaranty that we have against
the increasing demand for some kind of censorship. Unless the indus-
try continues to improve the quality of its pictures and gives full
awareness to what the public needs in the field of children's pictures
particularly, there will be an increasing demand for censorship.
There was a large body of well thought out opinion that while the
codes are in the main effective, there have been many instances of vio-
lations of both the advertising and the motion-picture codes. The
fault does not lie entirely with the men who are called upon to admin-
ister the code. There is a difficult problem, one which is complicated
by many factors. It is evident that there is a good deal of influence,
and sometimes pressm-e, to make them see things a certain way*n close
cases ; maybe to approve something that they have some question, some
misgivings about. Some of the fault seems to be in a rather loose
interpretation of responsibility by some of the movie producers.
Judging by their testimony to us, I am aware that this is a situation
which they are attempting to rectify, and I think they are making
headway. I hope they make more headway as soon as possible. Mr.
Shurlock impressed me as being a sincere man in his work with the
code. Personally I am a little disturbed about the type of movie
advertising is allowed to reach the public. I realize that the adver-
tising administration has a difficult time reviewing all of the advertise-
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY 417
merits sent to it, and a difficult time proving; to some people that a new
approach to selling tlieir products should be used. It is not easy to
give a story of a picture in advertising. I think some of the adver-
tising has gone definitely too far and is not excusable.
Mr. White, who is in charge of this part of the code, impresses me
as a sincere, earnest, conscientious man who has been under pretty
severe difficulties in carrying out the administration of the code just as
he would like for it to be carried out. I hope now that our hearings
are over, that both as to the production code^ the picture code and
the advertising code, that these gentlemen, with the support of the
industry, will continue more vigorously their attempts to correct what
I feel to be at least poor selling taste in some instances'. We will con-
tinue our consideration of movie problems, and all of this testimony
will be studied by the members of the committee and the staff in
Washington. Later on we will issue a report.
I want, it understood that our report is not for the purpose of con-
demning ; we want to recognize the good with the bad. Our purpose is
to work with the movie industry to try to see that it is better from
the viewpoint of its influence upon the child, and we hope that the
people in the industry will understand that and will give us their
confidence.
Today we have heard about one of the filthiest rackets in the United
States. Pornography is often directed at young people. It has been
getting into the hands of kids in schools. All of the testimony that
we have had in other places shows that it is a degrading influence that
it has been striking at the moral foundation of youth, and undoubtedly
has contributed to juvenile delinquency substantially. It is one of
the principal causes for outrageous sex murders and sex crimes.
The mail order business in nude and obscene photographs and
movies has been shown here to be substantial, and it covers what goes
on here, the whole of the United States. I think that from today's
hearings we will be able to frame Federal legislation that will help
clamp down on some of these pornographers and purveyors of filth.
One of our newspapers here carried on a commendable campaign of
exposing what has been going on here. The police have worked on
it hard, but I think it is quite evident that there needs to be larger
fines, revision of State statutes, many other matters, including a more
interested public, if it is really going to be cleaned up.
Now, I want to urge the people in every community, and certainly
here in California, to take another look at their own laws and make
sure they are adequate to cope with a business that runs into three or
four hundred million dollars a year. Our staff made that estimate
based upon preliminary hearings in New York and eastern cities. I
think what we have heard here shows that this is a fair estimate of the
size of the gross business of this obscene and questionable literature.
A fine of $50 or a suspended sentence won't keep this filth out of your
community.
We have been derelict in the Federal Government level in dealing
with tliis. I think it is quite obvious that our postal laws must be
strengthened, that laws relative to the transportation of pornography
by private automobiles and what not must be looked into. There are
other Federal approaches to the problem that should be considered.
We will between the time now and when we hear other witnesses,
follow with much interest what is done here in Los Angeles. In spite
418 JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
of the fine efforts of police authorities and others here in Los Angeles,
it is quite evident that Los Angeles is one of the substantial, one of
the largest centers for the making, producing, and distribution of this
kind of obscene literature, films, in the whole United States. What it
would have been without the good efforts of our police authorities, it
is, of course, quite evident.
There are other big cities in the United States that have just about
the same general kind of problem. I am impressed also by the fact
that this is a nationwide business, that customers here, people here
do business with those in New York and other places.
In closing, let me commend all of those in this area who have taken
the trouble to write this committee, presenting their views and their
feelings about our investigation. We have had an interested audience,
and I Avant to thank them for their suggestions, participation, and
some of the observations that they have made.
We appreciate very much the fair treatment that the press has given
us since we have been here, and radio and television. Let me assure
all of you that we on the subcommittee are going to continue to search
for methods for solving the problems of juvenile delinquency.
I want to thank again Mr. Stillwell, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Fee, our
engineer, Mr. McKeeney, many others in the GSO, Attorney Gen-
eral's Office, and many friends who have been so helpful to us here.
I would like to say I think our staff' has done an outstanding job.
Few people have been here a very short time and have developed the
testimony that has been brought out, and much of the testimony that
could have been brought out. They have been very diligent and hard-
working. I think they have done a very good — a mighty fine job in
this hearing.
Is there anything else, Mr. Bobo, before you catch that 5 o'clock
plane ?
Mr. BoBO. No. That is it.
Chairman Kefauver. The meeting will not adjourn. We will
stand in recess and the hearing will be continued. Let me make it
clear to you again that all witnesses, those here and those not here
who have been subpenaed, who have testified, will remain under sub-
pena. We may want to call some of you back. Those who have not
testified will be notified when to come back at a later time.
Thank you very much. We now stand adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4:25 p. m., Saturday, June 18, 1955, the hearing
was adjourned.)
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