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of Wyi 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XII 

Friday, March 7, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Buildings 



21 ;•; i:lfth day 


of the 



FEBRUARY 81st, 1952, et seq.. 

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. Davies, Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Friday, March 7th, 1952, 

The House having met, 2 o'clock p.m. 


im. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Presenting petitions. 

Rearling and receiving petitions. 

Presentjnp; reports by committees. 


Introduction of Bills, 

Orders of the day, 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Spesker, I beg leave to table answers to questions 1, 



12, 28, SO and 31. 

It has just been drawn to my attention that to- 
morrow, the father and mother of the Leader of the 
Opposition (r.ii'. Oliver) celebrate their fiftieth wedding 
anniversary. I would like to take this opportunity, 
Mr. Speaker, of extending to the hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Mr. Oliver) the congratulations of ^11 hon. 
members of the House, not only to himself but to his 
father and mother. I well remember that occasion in our 
own home, and it was a very happy occasion. This is an 
occasion the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) 
will remember , I hope, for very many years, V/e. 
certainly wish the very best to his father and mother 
and to himself also. May I say, long may he remain the 
hon. Leader of the Opposition. 

I\CR. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I just say I accept the kind 
words of the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), I 
can accept unreservedly his kind words on behalf of the 
hon. combers of the House for my father and mother, on 
the occasion of this great event in their lives, their 
f'olden wedding anniversary. His wish for me, of course, 
I cannot accept in the same light, but I do not want 
to minimize the one by exploiting the other,, I 
will do that on another occasion. 



CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth Order, resuming 
the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendnent 
to the motion for an address in reply to the Speech of 
The Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor at the opening 
of the Gessic 1. 

im. H. F. FISHLEIGH (V/oodbine): Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, I might say that I feel a little like a fish 
out of vv-ater and I may do a little floundering around 
on this occasion. Possibly it is like having a cold 
shaver, after you get into it, it feels much better. 

I v.'-ould like to congratulate you, Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, on the very fine way in which you read the 
Prayers, which have so much meaning. .1 would 
also like to congratulate Mr. Speaker himself on the 
very dignified w§iy in which he carries out his duties. 

I know I am not as apt at repeating 
platitudes as the older hon. members of this House, but 
I feel we have here a very fine body of men. It is 
something like sitting in the streetcar, you look at 
the chap on the other side and they look at you amd 
you size them up. I knovi' we are not on a streetcar, but 
I feel v/e are going places, V/e have passed a Bill for 


deepening the St. Lav/rence v/ater-waj^, which has been 
en the books for many, many years. 

In speaking this afternoon, I would like to 
point out that I am a £reat admirer of the hon. Prime 
iViinister (Mr. Frost). I think we should call him "Ivlr. 
Ontario himself". He seems to be so full of Ontario, 
I. doubt if there is any other man who could answer the 
questions, and be so enthusiastic as he is about Ontario. 
I think he should be mentioned for the Nobel Prize 
along v/ith the others who have been mentioned in the 
papers. To his left, we have another very capable man, 
the hon, Attorney-General (Mr. Porter), and I marvel at 
the ivay he presents Bills v/ith such accuracy. He se ms 
to know all about the Bills, I think that goes for all 
other hon. ministers v;ho are in charge of the various 
departments, they knov\r their business and are very 
sincere in carrying out their duties. That goes, also, 
for all other hon. raembers who have been elected, even 
the Oppesition. They are here to do a job for their 
constituents and not waste time. 

In speaking on the Speech from the Throne, I 
asked the Whip (Mr. Murdoch) what I could speak about. He 
said that it was up to myself, that I would not be 
committing my Party to anything by speaking, that it was 
just a chance to "get it off my chest.*' I asked him if 

A- 5 

after I had spoken, I would be referred to in any 
committee, and he said I was not, I was just to sit 
down. He said this was just a chance to let my 
constituents know that I had said something. In 
speaking in this Debate, I am very much like the 
hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg), nothing 
happens. I just give it, and sit dovra. The 
difference between us is the hon. member for St. 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) cannot get a seconder, so he 
could speak for five years end nothing v/ould happen. 

MR. FISHLEIGH: IVe will have to be on our 
dignity this afternoon, because we have in the gallery 
the Stratford Normal School. We will have to watch 
our grammar. I think the hon. member for Perth (Mr. 
Edwards) should stand up and make a bow to his 
constituents up there. 

I would like to say a few words on housing. 
As you know, we have had a scarcity of housing in 
Toronto and, when I speak of Toronto, you can just 
imagine that it is Stratford, London, Sarnia, V/oodstock 
or any other city. The same thing applies to other 
towns as well as Toronto, but perhaps in a little 
lesser degree. I would like you to keep that in mind. 
In the city of Toronto, we had a housing shortage even 
during the depression but did not realize it. During 
that period people were doubled up and v/hen the war 
came on the boys went overseas, and when they came 
back, they had a little money and married, and bought 
bungalows for themselves. The people who were left in 
those houses were doing better, with the result they 

A- 6 

did not take in extra tenants. As a matter of faot, 
in the city of Toronto, there are fewer people living 
to-day than there was during the depression years. Due 
to rent control, very few of them wished to take in 
roomers and the net result is you have people living 
in basements and in attics and all manner of places 
where they should not be. Around Toronto, there are 
hundreds of people living in basements with tar-paper 
covering, waiting for the day when they will have 
enough money to continue the house to the roof. 

(Page B-1 follows.) 

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To augment that situation, we had an influx of 
imnigrants into Canada, 176,000 people coming into 
this country, and whereas they were presum.ed to work 
on the farms, sooner or later thej'- seemed to come 
to Toronto, which also makes the walls bulge, even 


Toronto is the second largest 'boom town" in 
Canada, so I am told, surpassed only by the City 
of Edmonton, where they have a boom on account of 
the oil. Toronto seems to be the cross-roads for 
Canada, at le^st for Ontario. 

Now, I know it is a bad thing to read a 

speech, but 1 would like to read you a few extracts 

from the Financial Post, as follows: 

"Industrial increase 220^o over 1950, 452,000.00 

Engineering " 113^ " 1950, ^59, 000.00 

Commercial " 24/o " 1950, 54^,000.00 

Housing Dropped \.% 437,000,00" 

That is due, I think, rightly or wrongly, to 
the fact that the Dominion Government felt more of 
the material should be going into industry for war 
purposes, and the loans were curtailed. Because of 
this curtailment, it v.rill take us at least two years 
to gather momentum, even if we started to-morrov;. It 
takes quite a while to start the ball rolling, as far 
as housing is concerned. 



The question is, as to whether or not vie should 
proceed with housing when there is a shortage of steel 
and cement. Personally, I think we should. Housing 
is almost a necessity for the v/ar effort. Even in the 
early pioneer days, vi/hen the Indians were shooting 
arrows at the settlers, the first thing the settlers 
did was to build homes. I think the same principle 
applies to-day. V/e should have better housing for our 

We are not worried so much about the man who 
is able to buy a fifty thousand dollar home, or a 
tv/enty-f ive thousand dollar home or a fifteen thousand 
dollar home. There is enough property of that kind up 
in the northern part of the city and in the suburbs, 
' e are v/orried more particularly about the working men 
and the white-collar men, who have a little money, but 
whose earnings are not too high, the man who buys the 
Victory Bonds and whose sons leave to go to war, and 
the fatherly old gentlemen, v/ho have retired. They are 
the ones V'.^ho were caught in this pinch, and they are 
bearing the brunt. 

I am glad to see that now the smaller 
comiiunities will find it easier to borrov/ money. There 
is very little building in Ontario outside of the cities, 
and there is plenty of opportunity for building tliere. 


If you v/ent out, even to Oshawa, and tried to get a 
mortage, you would be told, "Oh, that is too far away; 
we cannot place a mortgage out there". The same thing 
applies at Malton, You are told that it is too far 
out of the city, and you cannot get a mortgare, so 
the Government will, of necessity, have to do something 
v/ith regard to permitting mortgages to farmers and the 
people in the smaller towns. 

In the 'Joodbine riding, when I was canvassing 
from door to door, I noticed that at one place there 
vi^ere six people living in a six-roomed semi-detached 
house. You could tell the occupants were working, 
because the milk and bread v/as at the door, and apparently 
there was nobody home to take it in. 

I do not believe that the people of that 
riding want to live under those conditions, but they 
have no alternative. There should be a v;ay established 
by Y/hich they can borrow money. There are thousands 
and thousands of semi-detached houses which could easily 
be converted into four-room dwellings. In many cases, 
in order to do that, it v;ould only mean doing away with 
one stairv\fay. They could easily be furnished with 
modern kitchenettes and bathrooms. After all, Mr. 
Deputy S_:eaker, a house' is still good if the wall 
structure is good. Here in Ccjiada we seem to think 


that v.'hen a house £.ets to be thirty years old, it 
should be torn down, that it is no longer of any use, 
and it is imijossible to get a mortgage on it. But 
v/hen the y/od.! structure is good, there is no need to 
tear it dovm. The owner should be able to raise a 
mortgage, if he v/ants to. 

People do not want to live in the suburbs; 
they want to live where they are used to living, and 
they could, if they were enabled to convert their houses, 

Iffl. SALSBSRG: Do you sur -est the Government 
should make such mortgages available? 

IvIR. FISHLEIGH: I think so. D- ring the 
election campaign, Mr. D^^puty Breaker, I was entertained 
at a house on Eastern Avenue, v/here there was a going- 
away party for a son, who v'as going to Germany. He 
v/as dressed in khaki. While there, I v/as informed that 
the next week the familj'' was to be evicted from their 
home, and as quickly as I could, I made arrangements 
for them to go down to little Norv/ay. I certainly 
do not think we want to feel that when-:t;he boys go ., . 
go overseas, to protect their homes, their fathers 
and motheis in a position v:here they may be 

I have a neighbour next door, who was being 
evicted, I .as at a Progressive-Conservative meeting 


v;hich v/as very largely attended by 300 or 400 people, 
and Vv'hile I was on the platform, a youngster came to 
the door and said, "Mom, mom", I asked to leave the 
platform, and I took this lady home, and learned that 
her husband had died v/hile she was attending the meeting. 
She said, "Vi'ell, my housing problem is over; I can now 
go into a room". So I think if any hon. member thinks 
v^re should not do something about housing in the city 
of Toronto, he is wrong. 

Even in the United States, they do more for 
housing than we do here. 

I was in Paris this summer, and as the hon. 
members may know, it is rather hard to get a good, 
square, American meal there, I went in with a young 
soldier from California, who took me to the American 
Consul's office where they serve about a thousand meals 
a day to their own people. We had a fine meal. The 
next day, I v/as invited there again, but I noticed that 
the lad vras not so cheerful as he had been the day 
before. I said to him, "V/hat is the matter?", and he 
said, "I received a letter from my girl friend in 
California, and she has decided she is going to marry 
one of the local boys". I said, "That is all right; 
there are millions of girls in the world, and maybe 
there will be another one for you". He said, "That is 


not all; before I left, I bought a house for the young 
lady, and it id 11 be ready v/hen I get out of the army 
in the spring"'. I said, "Hov/ on earth can you buy a 
house on army pay?". He said he had worked in a garage, 
and had saved about $500., and made a payment on this 
house, and it v/as costing him ;)75. a month to carry it. 
The house v/as valued at about ^10,000. He said, "V/e 
build houses in California by mass production". 

So, Mr, Deputy Speaker, I think mass pro- 
duction is the answer. V/e must have mass production 
if we are going to get the prices down, and solve our 

But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, hov/ on earth can we 
have mass production, v^raen the outside municipalities 
do not v/ant to subdivide the land? Naturally, th^- want 
the industries, v/hich perhaps pay more in taxes. Every 
time you subdivide a farm in order to build 50 houses, 
you need a school, and schools are very expensive to 
build these days. Perhaps I should go so far as to 
say that the province should assume some of the cost 
of the schools. I believe it is my duty to say v/hat 
I am saying at the present time. 

In order to solve the problem of housing 
by mass production, v\re have to have the land, and 
certainly the municipalities do not wish to have it 



I do not think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that if 
we had amalgamation, it would solve the problem; I do 
not think the unification of services will solve it. 
We have allowed it to drift too long. It would take too 
long to get things organized. 

"!/Vhen I was on the City Council, during the 
war, they commended the building of a sewage disposal 
plant on the waterfront, v/hich will be completed some- 
time this summer. Mr. Bosley is still buying land for 
the Civic Centre. So you can see hov/ necessary it is 
that vie all co-operate in regard to the erection of 

I think if we want to build thirty thousand 
houses in the next four years, it will be necessary to 
go outside the magic circle • — the cellophane circle — 
of these municipalities, to acquire land of our own, in 
Toronto township. There is beautiful land there in 
Vaughan, and in Scarboro, and linking these together, 
is the provincial highv^ray under construction, and the 
people will be able to get into the city of Toronto 
in five minutes, when that highway is completed. 

(B-8 follows) 


Supposing we were to go ahead with a scheme 
to assemble thirty thousand homes, with a down payment 
of one thousand dollars, and requiring seventy-five 
dollars a month to carry them. How long would it take 
us; If we started now to accumulate the land, it v;ould 
take at least six m^onths to buy the land, and after 
you had purchased the land, you would have to have 
it surveyed, and there are only about 600 surveyors 
in the Province of Ontario, so we might have to await 
our turn. It is possible, of course, that we might 
be able to use the services of the Provincial surveyors, 

Then we would have to draw up plans, which 
might take a month or two, and after all our plans 
were drawn, we would have to submit them to the 
school board, and they would select a site, and that 
V70uld take uo quite considerable time. 

Then the Council would take a proportion for 
park f.urposes, probably five or ten percent, and 
after that, we would have to send the plans to York 
Township, and they would look them over, and give 
their consent, and after we had secured their consent, 
we would have to take it to our own planning board, 
and that would take a month or more, going back and 
forth, and after the Hon, Minister had signed the 

.•;;.; o"i..:i ,:•■;'.' 

■B^9 . 

plans, then the lawyers would have to look into the 
. land deals to see that there were no mortgages against 
the property, and then we would have to take them t6 
the York County Planning Board, to have the plans regis- 
tered, and before you have them registered, you have to 
have them mounted, and that takes a few days. 

So, all in all, if you started a housing scheme 
now, you would not be able to commence building houses 
for at least a year and a half, even if everything went 
very smoothly, because of the implications which are 

Let us suppose that after a year and a half, 
you had this land available for use, then you would 
have to sell it to the private builders, of course, 
at a profit. If you made v500 profit on each lot, 
that would be a million and a half dollars, and in 
addition to that, you could also maj^e a profit on the 
sale of business property. Actually. you would not be 
committing the Province to a deficit at all, but to 
a profit. There is bound to be a profit, even after 
you pay for sewers, water, schools, a sewage disposal 
plant, and so on. 

In order to do this, the Department of Planning 
and Development would have to be given some power, to 


go out and buy the land, sell it, and promote the 

It is a straight business proposition, and I 
believe we could do it. It is a natter of dollars 
and cents, and a little bit of initiative, 

When the land was sold, then we would have 
our money back, probably within the first two years. 
It might originally cost us fifty million dollars to 
promote thirty thousand houses, but the money would 
cone back, when the houses were built on the land, 
because you have to pay for the land when the house 
is built upon it , 

I would like to leave this thought with the 
hon. members that what applies to Toronto, also applies 
to other municipalities, such as Woodstock, Sarnia, 
and even up in Temiskaming, where houses are badly 
needed, , . 

There are other municipalities which are not 
large enough to do anything towards solving the problem, 
and I think something probably will have to be done. 

In closing I would ask the hon. members to 
give some thought to this matter, realizing that even 
if we started to-day, we could not solve our problem 
for at least three years, and also realizing that it 


is very difficult to purchase land in the district 
surrounding the municipalities, I do not think you 
could buy land for even twenty-five houses in any of 
the surrounding municipalities at a reasonable price, 
which v/ould enable you to build the houses. The 
matter is really that serious, I do not think we 
should wait for the municipalities; we will have to 

do the job ourselves. 

(Take "C" follows) 


A. J. RZAUra. (Essex North): Hr, Deputy 
Speaker, I want to say in opening how I feel. I am 
inpressed v/ith the friendly feeling of all the hon. 
members of the House. I have not heard an unkind 
word said about anybody yet, and I am just wondering 
if this is the calm, probably, before the storm. 
However, I think it is an excellent thing that Bien 
of all parties can meet in the House for a common 
purpose, and I am sure, Mr, Deputy Speaker, that all 
of us here are trying to do a good job for the people, 

I was impressed \7ith the words of the hon. . 
Premier a week a.c;o v.-hen he spoke of the vay a good 
Government should operate — the responsibilities 
and functions of the Government, I think his 
words v/ere words of good advice to all of us. 
I was also impressed with the words from our own side 
about the function of the Opposition, and certainly 
the Opposition has an important function, ' " I want 
to say at the outset, that I do not think that the 
only purpose of Opposition is to oppose simply for 
the purpose of m.aking a speech, but I think that 
criticism coming from the Opposition should be at 
all times made in a friendly way, a Christian way, 
and with the purpose and intention of doing some 



I was happy, indeed when I heard members of 
the House pay tribute to Mr, Speaker, and I am sorry 
that he is not here now, Mr, Speaker 

comes from my home town, and I did want to join 
with the others in saying that he has brought honour 
to himself and his family and to his friends, and 
he has brought honour to the people of "/indsor, and 
all of us — it makes no difference from what party 
— are properly proud of him, and I am sure that 
with his Christian mind we can feel certain that he 
shall guide us along the proper road, 

I want to say a word, too, about the members 
of the Cabinet with whom I have had to deal for a ■ 
long time past. There is not one from the hon, Fremier 
down but who has always treated the community from 
which I come in a very excellent fashion. It is 
true, however, that we have not always agreed, nor did 
we always get everything that we asked for, but I 
think it is fair to say that they were always cordial 
and kind, and I am sure that all of them are doing 
the best they can. 

Most of the hon. members of the House have 
heard something, I am sure, about the city from which 


I come, and there are some other. people who have 
written certain things about it, 

I do not know whether some of these people 
who come from so far away know more about it than 
we do at home, but while I am at it here to-day, 
I think I should tell you something about Windsor 
as a community, 

Windsor is on the back porch, or the front 
porch, whichever way you want to put it of millions 
of people — ' • • 

HON. L. K. FROST (Prime Minister): The 
banana belt, 

MR. REAUIVE: The banana belt, correct. And 
coming over the bridge and through the tunnel every 
year are many, many millions of people from the 
States, It is said, and it is true, that there are 
more people enter Canada by way of Windsor from the 
States than all other ports of entry combined. That 
is not excepting Niagara Falls, either, but it is our 
job in Windsor, Mr, Deputy Speaker, to give our friends 
from the States a good impression of the country as a 
whole, because it is the first place that they see. 

Along that line I want to say that we do every- 
thing that we ca.n in a kind sort of a way in order 


that we may impress the people from the States who 
are going to other parts of Canada, that Canada is 
a fine place, and it certainly is. 

You have heard something, I am sure, of the 
strikes that have occurred in '.'/indsor. Through- 
out the war and after, I have had the honour of being 
the mayor of that great place. I have, incidentally, 
Mr, Deputy Speaker, been the mayor of 'v'indsor twice 
as long as any man alive, or even men who are now 
dead, and although I realize that there are some who 
wish I were dead, I want to say to them that I never 
felt better in the forty-five years' time that I 
have been on earth. 

It is true that we have had some strikes, 
because ''/indsor is a growing, expanding place. There 
has been a strike or strikes which I think probably 
should not have occurred. As a matter of fact, I 
think I am walking on safe ground when I say that 
in almost every strike there is nobody who 
can win in the long run, but strikes sometimes be- 
come essential because after all, a strike, we 
must bear in mind, is the only weapon in the hands 
of the working classes of people, which they can use 
as a last resort. 


In regard to the recent strike which occurred 
in Y/indsor. The hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) 
is here'.tLOJday and I am happy that he is, and I want to 
say what could have been a very bad strike, by the inter- 
vention of the Government in the person of the hon. 
Minister and his Deputy, was brought to an end, and I 
want to say on behalf of the people of l7indsor that we 
thank him wholeheartedly for his efforts, because it is 
important that the House should know that he worked 
night and day in order that the strike might be settled 
and finally brought to a conclusion, and I am happy to 
say, too, that it set a pattern which, I am sure, we 
can follow, and I am certain that we are now on the 
right road. 

I think, too, in passing, I want to observe 
that when I first approached him in his office in 
Toronto about having his staff and himself intervene, 
he said to me — and he can correct me if I am wrong — 
"It is not the ordinary thing to do, to step into these 
affairs, until such time as we are asked to come in by 
both parties concerned." I said to him, "I think I am 
speaking for both parties as mayor, and if something is 
not done, and eight thousand or more people find 
themselves unemployed, 

(Page C-6 follows. ) 


it will have a tremendous' effect upon the community, 
and certainly an effect upon the Province,'' 

Inside of fi^^teen minutes" he sent out wires 
to both of the principals involved, called them into 
his office in Toronto, and for something like twenty 
days and nights, he worked with them here in Toronto 
and also back home, and finally resolved the 
differences. Once again, I>'r« Deputy Speaker, I want 
to say to the hon. Minister that everybody in V'''indsor is 
very happy indeed, and very proud of the job he has 

I think it is important that I should 
tell you something about 'Jindsor, because we have had 
so much advertising. Some of it, I think, has been 
adverse, and I \«;ant to acquaint the hon. members of 
the House with a comm-unity that I think is equally as 
important in the affairs of the Province, and indeed 
of the country, as any of the other communities, 

Vie just want to take our place beside 
all of you, and to contribute our part, I want to 
say that in the war, one of the greatest and the 
m.ost important jobs was assigned to the people of 
the community from which I come, and that job was 
this: we were asked to put the armies of the Empire 


and their allies upon wheels, and I think that you 
will all admit that we did that job in good fashion. 
It was proven, because in the history books of '/orld 
'far II you will find that it is written that in the 
battle of El Al.ameln which they claim was the turning 
point of the war, in that battle will be found 
almost exclusively used the materials which were made 
in the town from which I come. 

"7e were proud of that fact; we are still. 
It was from the City of Windsor that came the famous 
Essex Scottish, who, along with the regiments from 
Hamilton and other places, were the first of the 
Canadian boys to make a test on the fortresses lined 
up by the enemies on the beaches of France, 1^'Iany 
gallons of blood v;ere spilt in that battle, and many 
thousands of our boys are still buried there. Those 
fellows are not coming back, but we have a job to do, 
to preserve the things for which they fought, and I 
am sure that every hen. member of the House will do 
his part in doing that job, 

Mr, Deputy Speaker, there has been some 
mention — I do not v;ant to be critical -- but there 
has been some mention of the fact that a great number 
of grants that have been coming from the Government in 

C-8 . 

the way of helping the cities and the towns and the 
hamlets all over the Province. I want to say, in 
passing, that we are always grateful and thankful for 
anything that you do for us, hut the costs of opera- 
tion in the communities at the moment, and for some 
time past, have been going up, and the taxes are as 
high on real property as we dare put them. 

V/e are now getting into the field of taxing 
people out of the ownership of their own homes, and 
I say to the Government that you must have caution, 
you must watch the financing and the direction of the 
affairs of every community in the whole of the Province 
— and I am sure that you are — because if you do not, 
you will go back again to the early days of 1931 and 
1932 when many of the places found themselves unable 
to pay princip'sl and interest on the bonds they had 
sold, and the credit of the people of the community 
is only as good as the credit of the community in which 
they have their homes, because if the credit of a 
community is impaired, then there is not much sense 
of going out, trying to borrow money to build hormes 
because you must safeguard and you must always 
fight for the credit of the community, because once 


the credit goes down, the people go down with it, and 
we should always adhere to the policy whenever we borrow 
any money from anybody, of trying to pay it back one 
hundred cents for every dollar that we borrow, and not 
by trying to settle on the basis of fifty cents on 
the dollar, as though we were going to an auction sale. 

As one illustration, Mr, Deputy Speaker, 
of how the Government hands out grants with the one 
hand and takes them away from us with the other, I 
would just like to point out one thing, and probably 
it could be given some thought. You know, in Windsor 
and in Toronto and in other places we own our own 
streets -- or, at least, we think we own our own streets. 
T7e ought to own them; we built them and paid for them, 
such as they are. ' Upon those streets operate 
our fire trucks, our Board of ^'7orks trucks, the buses 
that we own and operate, the police cars, and we have 
to pay a gasoline tax on each and every gallon of gas 
for the purpose of operating our own vehicles upon our 
streets. It would be just as sensible and reasonable 
to charge a farmer taxes for the fuel that he burns 
in his truck or tractor while operating upon his own 
farm. I would say off-hand in the City of Windsor 

1 ;-.i 


the Grovernment of the day extracts about $150,000 or 
more from our people by reason of charging us the gas 
tax for the right to drive upon our own streets. Now, 
that point I leave in the hands and in the fair minds of 
the Cabinet. I think you will find that holds true 
over the whole of the Province, and certainly it will 
not help us out in any way if you are going to give us 
grants with one hand, and take them back with the other. 

I would like to say a word..^ Mr. Deputy 
Speaker — it has already been mentioned, and very 
ably mentioned, too — and that is in the field of 
housing. In the city from which I come after a complete 
survey I find that there are four thousand heads of 
families, and their families who are not housed 
properly. V/hat the hon. member for V/oodbine (Mr. 
Fishleigh) has said is perfectly true. I have seen it 
with my own eyes. There are people with families vrtio 
are occupying basements, attics, garages and quarters 
that are not suitable for animals, let alone for 
people, and, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it was not until the 
time when a tremendous amount of pressure came from 
the various parts of the Province that the Province 



entered into the housing field at all. All throughout 

the war when the housing was bad, and really bad 

- " equally as bad as it is right now the Federal 

Government and ourselves, along with others, I 
presume, were constantly after the Province of Ontario 
to enter the housing field, and it was not so long 
ago that they finally entered it, and I am happy to 
say that by the efforts of the Government and the 
efforts of Ottawa and ourselves, that finally they 
have entered the housing field in a form, whereby the 
Federal Government pays 75 cents of each dollar on 
housing, the Province, I think, 17i cents, and we 
pay the balance, 

(Take "D" FOLLOWS) 


v7e are only scratching at the surface in housing. Now, 
what did Inadequate housing do? It promoted in a hig 
way, the hTe&kln^, down of the fundamental things that 
are good in Canada. It broke up homes. If you go 
into the reports of the Children's Aid Societies, you 
v/ill find the costs of those societies are joing up 
every year. One of the reasons for it, the most important 
thing behind it, is that the families have not a proper 
type of housing. I am hopeful that the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) will announce very shortly, some 
better plan on housing than v/e have at the present time. 
I want to say that when that plan is announced, that we 
in V/indsor want to be the first to catch a train and 
come to Toronto to speak to you about it, because we 
need housing and we need it badly. 

The other problem which I think should be 
dealt with is the people at the moment who are unemployed, 
I think we are all concerned with the possible spread 
of one "ism" or the other, and is there anything in the 
world that v«lll spread or bring, people into some sort 
of an 'Ism" any quicker than being unemployed? Though it 
is true at the moment that Canada is a country whose 
economy is as rood as it ever was and in the over-all 
■pictur=, over the whole of Canada, the unemployment 
problem does not seem to be bad. However, there are 


certain spots on the map where unemployment is growing 
every day and I think the only way to deal with that 
problem in the interest of the fundamental principles 
to v;hich we all adhere is by a three-way conference. 
The province of Ontario has a perfect opportunity now 
to step ahead in the field and call a three-vmy con- 
ference between the Federal authorities, the province 
of Ontario, and the various places within the province 
v;hich are involved. I am certain that a combination of 
efforts on the part of the Federal authorities, of 
the province and of ourselves can bring an end to this 
business of people being unemployed. If we just keep 
on with the old game of'passing the buck" by saying 
it is the other chap's fault, the other fellow saying 
it is our job, I am just v\rondering if unemployment will 
not continue to grow and expand. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know everyone in the 
House is thinking of going home, so I do not want to speak 
much longer. On behalf of the people who sent me here, 
I want to say one more thing in connection with the 
Ford strike, how thankful we are to the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Daley). I want to tell him that as an outcome of 
the settlement, we in V/indsor nov/ have formed a 
comidittee and on the committee are people from industry, 
from the union, the Mayor, and certain members of the 



Board of Control. Periodically, we are going to meet 
and try to pursue a course which will avoid the pitfalls 
which lead to strike* This committee was formed shortly 
after the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) had settled the 
strike in V/indsor. Once again, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I 
want to offer my thanks to the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley). 

MR. V/. MURDOCH (Essex South): Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, I move the adjournment of the debate in the 
absence of the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko). 

Motion agreed to. 

HOW. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister) : Mr. 
Deputy Speaker, I had intended to do some committee 
work this afternoon, but owing to the fact that we 
are short-handed, Mr. Speaker being ill, and we would 
have to divide your services as Chairman of the 
Committee of the V/hole House and Mr. Speaker, I think 
I will let that stand over until Monday. On Monday, we 
will go ahead with some of the Committee work and some 
of the government Bills, and then revert to the address 
in reply to the Speech from the Throne. I might say I 
am anxious that every hon. member here viho wants to 
speak, should have that opportunity on the debate in 
reply. At the same time, I would like, if possible, 
to bring in the Budget somewhere around the 18th to 
the 20th. I am anxious to allow the debate in reply 
to the Speech from the Throne, to have priority 
insofar as possible. 

r ■* r*-t,- 


Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move the adjournment 
of the liouse, 

MTi. I. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Derjuty Speaker, could the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
jTrost ) indicate which government Bills are coming up on 

IVJR. FROST (Prime l^inister): There are certain 
resolutions that I would like to dispose of. I v/ould 
like to dispose of the committee v>'ork, I might not 
call Bills 68 or 69, There are two Bills standing in 
the name of the hon. Minister of Education (Mr. Dunlop) 
which I have held off by reason of other business. I 
would like to deal with those Bills, I am not sure of the 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St.Andrev/); Are those 
dealing with the frills and things? 

IVE. FROST! V7e are eliminating all frills. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 3:07 p,m. 








Jtr0t ^tBBmn 

of ll|P 
of tl|? 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XIII 

Monday, March 10, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Building! 




of the 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq . 

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. Davles, Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March lOth, 1952 

The House having raet. 3 o'clock p.m. 

Prayers . 

IVIR. SPEAKER Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by committees. 

Motions . 

Introduction of Bills. 

Orders cf the daj/ . 

HON. F. S. THOMAS (Minister of Public 
Works): Mr. Speaker, 1 would like an opportunity of 
making a statement of interest not only to members of 

A - £ • 

the House but in the public interest as well, I refer 
to the Hills Lake Fish Hatchery near Englehart , Ontario, 

At the fall session of the Legislature in 
September the follov\fing statement vv'as made by Mr, E. P. 
Jolllffe, then leader of the opposition. This state- 
ment was made on September 27th, 1951: ' 

"The matter to which I wanted to 
refer v.'as this: during the life of this 
Legislature, there has not been any great 
demand for work by the Public Accounts 
Committee, and when it did meet --if it 
did -- I think it was to take up matters 
of procedure and accounting, rather than 
matters of any other nature which at some 
times have interested previous Public 
Accounts Committees. 

"' ut there is one matter which has 
been brought to my attention which" i think 
should ro to the Public Accounts Committee, 
or possibly, if that is not feasible, then 
to the Criminal Justice Committee. I do not 
have full information of this, and I do not 
pretend to, but any information I do have, 
I am quite prepared to make available at the 
proper time and place. I am certainly making 
no charges against any member of the govern- 
ment , but I do wish the matter to be gone 
into so that whoever may be responsible is 
brought to account. 

"'I , and many other hon. members of this 
House, have frequently visited the district 
of Temiskaming, and the riding known as 
Temiskaming, is represented in this House 
by a C.C.F, member. I visited the place, 
and so did the hon, member for St. David 
(Mr. Dennison). 

"Recently there has been under way the 
construction of a fish hatchery in that area, 
which has been somewhat prolonged, and evi- 
dence has been placed before me of a somewhat 
shocking nature indicating the improper ex- 
penditure of public funds in connection with 
that fish hatchery. This has been brought 
to my attention very recently. 


' vf.r 


A- 3 

The hon. Member for St. David (Mr. 
"Dennison) has gone into it to the best 
of his ability, and has ascertained 
that a number of witnesses are now 
prepared to appear if called upon, and 
to testify as to what occurred. 

"I wish to make it very clear that 
I am not making any charges, but I think 
it is proper to give notice that the 
witnesses are available and that infor- 
mation is available, and we shall tender 
it as soon as it is made, in order tc 
make certain that the facts are estab- 
lished, and if anybody has been guilty of 
improper conduct, that they shall be 
held responsible for their actions." 

The Minister of Public Vforks at the time 
instructed the Deputy Minister to investigate this 
matter. The Superintendent in charge of the 
construction work was brought to Toronto on October 
the 1st, 2nd and 3rd, for questioning. 

As the work v/as nearing completion, an 
effort vras made to finish same before severe weather 
would set it. Shortly after taking over the office 
of Minister of Public V/orks on October 2nd, I was 
acquainted by the Deputy Minister as to the Depart- 
mental investigation that was under way and authorized 
same to be continued with all possible speed. 

As a result of this investigation, a 
mqeting was held on December 19th, 1951, in the 
office of the Deputy Minister, the following being 

(Page A-4 follows.) 


The Hon. F. S. Thomas - Minister 

A. R. Herbert, M.P.P. for Temlskamlng 

G. N. Williams - Deputy Minister 

S. Wood - Executive Assistant 

V. L. Gladman - Architect 

The alleged irregularities were discussed 
and instructions were given to close down the work at 
the Hatchery on December 21st, 1951* with the excep- 
tion of the completion of the New Assistant 
Manager's Residence, and only a few men were re- 
tained to carry on this work. 

Officials of the Department were sent to 
Hills Lake and took an inventory of all food and 
materials on hand, and the grocery supplies on hand 
at the time were returned and credit obtained. 

On January 15th and l6th the Architect In 
charge of the work, together with two assistants, 
went to Hills Lake and made a re-check of all 
materials and equipment on hand and had them stored 
in a locked building and the keys handed over to the 
Hatchery Manager. Also on January l6th, on my in- 
structions, the Deputy Minister and the Executive 
Assistant interviewed Acting Commissioner Moss of 
the Ontario Provincial Police in regard to having a 
report made dealing with the statement made by Mr. 
Jolliffe, Including information obtained from the 
Department's investigations. 

Inspector Kennedy of the Ontario Pi ovine lal 
Police was . detailed to Investigate and he made two 


trips to Englehart and Hills Lake on January l8th 
to the 26th and February 4th to l4th, both In- 
clusive. Inspector Kennedy's report was sub- 
mitted on February 21st ^ 1952. 

In consultation with the Department of 
the Attorney -General, it was decided to lay charges 
against the Superintendent under the Criminal Code 
and he was arrested by Inspector Kennedy and Corporal 
Keeler on Friday, March the 7th, and was released 
on bail of $4,000.00, and was immediately suspended 
as Superintendent of Construction until further 
notice . 

Mr. Speaker, I would like also to add that 
the Department of Lands and Forests officials had 
nothing to do with construction of this Job nor, 
for that matter, the employees of any other Depart- 

That is the statement, sir, which I wished 
to lay before the House. 

MR. G. C. WARDROPE (Port Arthur): Mr. 
Speaker, before you call the Orders of the Day I ask 
your permission to perform a very, very happy duty. 
It is the birthday today of the hon. member for 
Ft. William (Mr. Mapledoram) . I know that we all 
wish him many happy returns of the day and on behalf 
of the hon. members we have a little gift on his 
desk, as you will see. 

We hope he will have many years of health, 
happiness and joy and may he remain always as young 
as the plant on his desk. 


KiR. C. MAPLEDORAM (Fort William) : Mr. 
Speaker, I take this opportunity to thank all my 
friends in the House and to say that it is entire- 
ly a surprise to me to receive this beautiful 

touque':, and I will look after it and keep it 
young, as j'Ou wish me to do. 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 12th order, second 
reading of Bill No. ^7j an Act to amend the 
Vocai-.ioncl Education Act. Mr. Dunlop. 

HON. W. J. DUNLOP (Minister of Education): 
moves second reading of 3111 intituled, "An Act 
to amend the Vocational Education Act". 

He said: Mr. Speaker, I wish to outline 
the reason for an amendntnt to the Vocational 
Education Act. Members of the House may recall 
that Just last week the former president of the 
University of Chicago, in an address made at 
Convocation Hall at the University of Toronto, stated 
as his opinion that the r.etting up of vocational 
education in the United States had been a major 
error. The reason for 3tating that was, as he 
said, that vocational education in the United 
States had become simpl,,' training and nothing else. 

In Ontario, vocational education has always 
included history and English, mathematics and 
science ac well, as physical and health education, and 



we have in Ontario forty-five vocational schools 
of which twenty-four are composite schools and 
there are well over thirty thousand students in 
those schods . 

A young person, boy or girl, leaving the 
public school or the separate school, leaving an 
elementary school, then has the choice of one of thred 
schools to attend in most cities and towns in this 
province. He may go to the collegiate institute 
for academic training or to the technical school 
for technical training or to the high school of 
commerce for commercial, training. 

It had been the case some time ago -- 
I am sorry that it ever was -- that some people had 
the idea that those who attended technical and 
commercial schools were perhaps not as well quali- 
fied as those who attended .collegiate institutes. 
Such is not the case; it is simply a matter of 
finding out what is best for the boy or girl con- 
cerned and so we have these vocational schools. The 
training in all of them, in the commercial schools* 
as well as in the technical schools and composite 
schools, is always based on a liberal education in 
the humanities plus always a certain technical or 
commercial training. 

It might be asked why that is so. In the 
first place, we are particularly anxious at all times, 
Mr. Speaker, to provide a good liberal education no 
matter what the school maj-- be or who the pupil may 
be, and in these vocational schools we have teachers 
well qualified in that particular type of work. 

(Take "B" follows) 


Then, a certain sort of vocational school is 
known as an industrial school. An industrial school is 
a type, as I have said, of vocational school and it 
provides for the benefit of what are called "slow 
learners". These "slow learners" are provided for in 
the first place in the elementary schools in what are 
called "auxiliary classes"or"opportunity classes." The 
children go there until they are thirteen years of age, 
when some other provision has to be made, and the provision 
is the special industrial school. There are three of 
these schools in Toronto and two in Hamilton; there are 
603 boys enrolled in these schools and 381 girls. I 
do not know whether anyone wants to draw the conclusion 
that there are more slow learners among boys than girls, 
that is 'not the case, however, the number is greater 
among boys than girls. 

In these special industrial schools, the 
teachers are particularly well qualified and are specially 
trained for their v/ork. Then the point arises, what do 
we do to enable these slow learners in the auxiliary 
or opportunity classes to find a place for themselves. We 
provide a place for them in the special industrial 
schools. Sometimes, parents w^ould rather the children 
stay in the auxiliary classes,, but it is not as a rule 
for the good of all concerned that they be kept there. 


We are providing in this amendment to the Act, a means 
by which these slow learners may go on from the opportunity 
classes to the industrial schools under the Vocational 
Education Act and be properly taken care of there. 

In these schools young people are treated as 
individuals ani they get individual instruction. The 
teachers are so trained and so selected that they 
make friends with these slow learners and do their best 
for them in every way. 

\Ie tried some time ago to see how these 
industrial schools worked out by making a survey of the 
Jarvis Street School for boys, in v/hich there are courses 
in such subjects as woodv/orking , metal working, auto- 
mobile mechanics, painting and decorating, sheet metal 
work, printing, etc. A survey was made of a thousand students of this school and it was found that 
only 2,2 percent were unemployed; 22 out of 1000 
v/ere unemployed; the average income of 56 of them was 
$45.00 a week when the survey was made, a little above 
the average income for people generally at that time. 
Only 11 of the thousand were in penal institutions. One 
of them is doing particularly good work as foreman of 
a five-colour printing press. 

In this amendment, Mr. Speaker, it is proposed 
that we arrange to admit any slov/ learner from an 


opportunity class to an industrial school by setting up 
a board to examine the pupil in q^uestion and if he is 
suitable for admission, we are going to admit him to 
the special industrial school. That, Mr. Speaker, is * 
the purpose of this amendment, 

MR. J". B. SALSBSRG (St . Andrev;) : Mr. Speaker, 
I am of the opinion that this Bill should not receive 
second reading at this time, but should be held hack for 
a later date in this Session, before v/e consider it. It 
is quite obvious, lir . Speaker, that this Bill No. 47, 
and one or two similar Bills, seek to bring about certain 
changes v/ithin our educational systerr.. They are piece- 
meal in character on a subject that Viras recognized 
years ago as requiring a most fundamental overhauling. 

Recently the people of this province have had 
occasion to feel a bit unsure ab out the trends in the 
Department of Education, The people were amazed to read 
in the daily press that the new hon. Minister of 
Education (Mr. Dunlop) is declaring war on v/hat he 
called "frills". He also spelled it out in one of his 
public addresses as referring to athletics, music, physical 
education and other subjects. The effect of these speeches 
dealing with basic policy in our educational setup caused 
grave concern. One newspaper that is a supporter of the 
Government, the Toronto Telegram, was justified in 


predicting on the basis of these utterances of the new 

hon. Minister (Mr. Dunlop) that: 

"A major policy change may be coming in the 
Department of Education". 

I am not attempting at this point to argue the 

merits or demerits of the ideas that the new hon. Minister 

(]VIr. Dunlop) gave expression to. I am, hov/ever, obliged 

to say that a great many people in this province feel 

that these were utterances which could be considered 

as expressions of obscurantism and reaction in the realm 

of education. May I say I was rather surprised that 

the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) and the 

hon. Leader of the C.C.F. House group (Mr. Grummett) 

expressed satisfaction vdth the indicated changes. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister); E&. 

Speaker, may I ask the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) to 

just v/hat he is addressing his remarks? Is it to the 

matter of vocational education or to the matter of 

general policies of the Department of Education? If so, 

Mr. Speaker, may I point out that the hon. member (Mr. 

Salsberg) had the same opportunity of addressing the 

House as did the hon. Leader of the Opx^osition (Mr. Oliver) 

and the hon. member for South Cochrane (Mr. Grummett). 

My recollection is he said nothing about education at all, 

he talked about general v;orld conditions and some other 

interesting topics which had nothing whatever to do with 


the province. If the hon. meraber (Mr. Salsberg) Is going 
to take this opportunity to speak on the general policies 
of the Department of Education, may I point out that lie 
is out of order. 

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the 
remarks of the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) and I 
might say that if he gives me a chance, he will find out 
that I am dealing with the Bill, The reason I mentioned 
at this moment, the public statements of the new hon. 
Minister (Mr. Dunlop) on matter? of education, is 
because I feel, as I am sure many people of this province 
do, that this is an effort on the part of the Department 
of Education to bring about certain changes in our 
educational system which I think we should not undertake 
until such time as this House vail give careful study 
to the Hope Report. Now, is that beginning to clear it 
up? The people of this province, educators and laymen, 
feel that for a long time a study of our educational 
system V'/as necessary. The Conservative Government, under 
the Premiership of Mr. Drew, recognized that need, and 
in 1945, appointed a Royal Commission headed by Mr. 
Justice Hope. Now, Mr. Speaker, what were the refer- 
ences .to that Commission as presented in a Bill? I 
think I am quite in order in arguing against a Bill 
dealing with 


MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I think this has 
been the liveliest afternoon v\^e have had in this Session, 
it is just like old times. I do feel the hon. member 
(Mr. Salsberg) is wandering. If we are going to have a &e- 
bate^ on the Hope Report, let us have it at some relevant 
time. We have heard a great deal about the Report in 
the past several years. I feel we have before us a Bill 
dealing with a straight matter of vocational education 
and let us try and confine it to that. I would suggest 
to the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) that he confine his remarks 
to the Bill without all of the preamble leading up 
to it. 

MR. SALSBERG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The 

reason why I am referring to the Hope Report — I am 

not undertaking to discuss it, and I assure you I have 

no intention of doing it on this occasion — the reason 

I am referring to the report and the references to that 

Commission is because in the references it is stated 

very definitely: 

"This Government do hereby appoint you to be 
Commissioners to inquire into and report upon 
the provincial education system, and without 
derogating from the generality thereof, including 
courses of study, text books, examinations, financing, 
and the general system and scheme of elementary 
and secondary schools, involving public schools, 
separate schools, continuation schools, high 
schools, collegiate institutes, vocational schools — " 


That Commission was asked to study our edu- 
cational schools. The Commission worked for five 
years at a cost to the people of the province of 
about three hundred thousand dollars, and it made 
definite proposals in regard to vocational training 
and to vocational schools. I say, Mr. Speaker, the 
Report of the Royal Commission has been evaded by 
this Government and there is a conspiracy of silence 
against it, there is a refusal to take up that im- 
portant Report and present it to the House for full 
discussion. I do not fully agree with all of the 
recommendations contained in the Hope Report, but I 
do submit that the Report merits at least a discus- 
sion and an expression of opinion from the Government 
and other groups in this House. I think we should 
set aside at least two days for discussion on the 
recommendations of the Hope Report before we begin 
a piece-meal effort to fix up vocational schools. 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, may 
I remind the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) that at the 
last regular Session I took the first opportunity in 
the debate on the address in reply to the Speech from 
the Throne, to discuss that Report and to give a state- 
ment of policy.. Following that, I have never heard 
the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr, Salsberg) mention 
the Report. I am sure if he will Just take time 
to read what I said last February in the debate 
in reply to the Speech from the Throne 


in connection with the Hope Report, that is still the 
policy of the Government. . 

MR. SALSBERG: ^Mhj are you afraid of that 
Report? Why not have a discussion on it? 

IVDR. FROST: Not afraid at all. The hon. member 
for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) has had the opportunity 
of discussing that Report a dozen times, and he has 
shied av/ay from it on different occasions, 

im. SALSBERG: No, I did not. 

MR. FROST: I might say I have given a state- 
ment of policy which stands; ' as the statement of 
policy in connection with the Hope Report, . There 
is nothing to stop any hon. member here who wants to 
discuss anything relating to the Hope Report, That 
was the policy of the Government a year ago, and that 
is the policy to-day. 

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Speaker, I must take 
exception It is not correct that I had an opportunity 
to discuss the Hope Report. After that long awaited 
Report was presented, after years of hope and clamour, 
we could not possibly discuss it intelligently until 
we studied it, I ara trying to speak and hon. members 
on the other side are trying to stop me. The hon. 
Minister (fjlr. Challies) is sitting on pins and needles, 
he is apparently afraid of a discussion on the Hope 


Report. I ara v/illing that we should have a discussion 
at any time. Let us have it, I think the Government 
is afraid of the Report. 

IKR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I have asked 
the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) to pull in the reins 
a little bit and speak on this Bill, It is the privilege 
of every hon. member of the House to discuss generalities 
on two occasions, the Speech from the Throne and the 
Budget. I believe the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) has 
spoken on the Throne Debate and there will be ample 
opportunity, I am quite satisfied, in the Budget Debate, 
for any hon. member including the hon. member for St. 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) to refer to the Hope Report all 
he wants. At this time, let us confine it to the matter 
we are discussing, the Bill dealing with vocational 

(Page C-1 follov/s) 


\'Je are discussing the matter of the Bill 
dealing with vocational education, 

M. 3aLSB:i,RG: Fay I, Kr. Speaker — 

MR. SPEAKER: May I request that we get on 
with this Bill without further discussion. 

l.'jR, SALSBiLRG: VJith full appreciation of your 
ruling, and without desiring in any way to make it 
difficult for you, IVIr, Speaker, may I ask you whether 
in discussing the Bill regarding changes in the educa- 
tional system, it is not within the scope of the 
discussion on second reading to revert to basic infor- 
mation which dealt with that very subject? I suggest, 
lilr. Speaker, that it is not out of o3?der, and I think 
you can hardly discuss the principle of this Bill 
without referring to the findings of a Commission 
composed of some of the best men who worked on it for 
five years, and who have something to say about it, 

HOH. Ml. FROST (Prime linister): Mr. Speaker, 
may I point out one or two things to the House to 
clarify this matter. First of all, may I say that 
the hon. member for St, Andrew (Tr, Salsberg) has 
imputed that the Government — which, of course, 
includes myself, — is trying to avoid or evade a 

I ; 


discussion on the Hope report. The hon. member is 
completely wrong, and I think he knows it. 

Fay I say that at the first opportunity of 
speaking to this House after the Hope report was 
presented, I stated what the Government policy was, 
I read the Hope report, which I think is more than 
the hon, member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) did — 

MR. SALSBERG: Now you are imputing, 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Very well, if the 
hon, member read it, I will withdraw my statement, 

M§.Y I say, Mr. Speaker, that I have had many 
inquiries relative to the Hope report, and I have 
always referred people who inquired, to my speech 
of that time. 

During the election which was held last 
fall, the matter was not raised, insofar as I am 
aware, by any of the opposing leaders, and I took 
the opportimity myself in one of the eastern ridings 
to read again the statement I made in the House, That 
is the policy which has been passed on by the people, 
and there is no evasion, 

Mr. Speaker, concerning this Bill: if the 
hon, member for St. Andrew (Mr.- Salsberg) wants to 
refer to relevant items in the Hope report dealing 


with this problem, of course, it is his privilege to 
do so. If he wants to deal with certain references 
and certain recommendations relative to vocational 
education, we will be glad to hear his views, but that 
does not involve a debate on all the immense number 
of recommendations by that Commission, 

I think that clears it up. If the hon, member 
wants to refer to the Hope report, we will be glad to 
hear his references and recommendations in connection 
with vocational education, 

m. SaLoBLRG: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the 
Hon, Prime Tinister, my submission is this; that we 
should not deal with any legislation which seeks to 
bring about changes in the educational system, without 
a full-dress discussion on the recommendations of the 
Hope commission. It is only after such a discussion, 
in which the Government , through the Hon. Prime Minister, or 
the Hon. Minister of Education, will clearly state the 
Government's position on all the major recommendations 
made by the Commission, that the House will be in a 
position to intelligently discuss the legislation which 
will be bet-ore it, I suggest, until this is done, we 
are being asked to either ignore completely the work, 
the findings a.nd the recommendations of the 


Commission headed by M"r, Justice Hope, -or we are being 
asked to deal in a piece-meal fashion with it, 

I think the Hon, Prime Minister should agree 
to set aside a day or two in which the Hon, Minister 
of Education can give an introduction, and present the 
Government's policies, and the Government's position 
in regard to the major items recoraraended. Let us 
have a full discussion in the House, and then we will 
be able to deal with matters affecting the fundamentals 
of our education system. 

That is why, Mr, Speaker, I am of the opinion 
that Bill No. 47 should not now be read a second time, 
but be referred back, at least until after the discus- 
sions will have been heard in the Legislature. 

MR. C. H. LYOlNiS (Sault Ste. Marie): Mr, Speaker, 
following the remark by the hon. member for St, Andrew 
(Mr, Salsberg), may I say that there should be in this 
House a certain degree of unity amongst the groups 
represented. I am in favour of unity, but I am not 
in favour of the type of unity which was enjoyed by 
Jonah when he was swallowed by the whale, when he 
said, "It looks as if there was only one left over,** 

I/IR.. G. C. ^.TARDROPE (Port Arthur): Mr, 
Speaker, it appeared to me as the hon, member for St. 


Andrew (Mr, Salsberg) was speaking, when he said we 
should have a full-dress discussion by every hon. member 
of this House, that if we allowed him to have his way, 
nobody in the House would have any chance to debate it 
at all, 

}m, SALSBERG: I am through with the floor; 
it is yours, 

m. F. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition ): 
Mr, Speaker, I hope and believe that before this 
Session concludes I will have a number of opportunities 
— and so will my colleagues — to differ sharply 
with Government policy, that is, if it introduces any 
important legislation in this Session. \'Je have had 
notice, but that is all so far. I cannot get unduly 
exercized about the particular Bill before the House 
at this time. I do not understand the temperament of 
the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) in 
bringing this matter before the Legislature in the 
manner in which he has. 

This is a Bill introduced by the Hon, Minister 
of Education which seeks to do a specific thing. The 
idea I have in my mind, Mr, Speaker, is I think it 
would be well if Bills like this one were referred to 
the Educational Committee. I think this is the first 


year we have liad a Standing Conmittee on Education, 
'■/e have had legal Bills in the House referred to the 
Legal Committee; Bills affecting agriculture are 
always taken up in the Agricultural Committee, and it 
seems to me it is quite appropriate and quite proper 
that Bills of this character should be referred to the 
Education Committee, and there they can be gone into 
and studied from every angle, and reported back to 
the Legislature, 

The Hon. Prime Minister in the earlier part 
of the Session said it was his plan to give more work 
to the Committees of this House. I agree with him. 
I think we should have more Committee work, and I 
think there should emerge from these Comiuittees to 
the floor of the Legislature, much more legislation 
than presently is the case, and I suggest to the Hon, 
Prime Minister that this is the logical time to 
start, by referring this Bill to the Educational 
Committee, so that it may be studied there, and re- 
ported upon to the House. 

HON. T'TR. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
may I say that this Bill really has no ground for 
controversy. The Bill provides that children of 
thirteen years of age who have been in attendance at 


auxiliary classes, and who are eligible for admission 
to such classes may, on a recommendation, approved by 
the Minister or examining board, be admitted to the 
special industrial classes established by the Board for 
the purpose of giving vocational education. The 
purpose of the Bill is simply to give an opportunity 
to children who, I understand, have not the ability to 
progress in a normal way to attend for the purpose of 
vocational education. V/hile I agree with the Hon. 
Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) that we are 
referring a great many Bills to special committees this 
year, more than we have in the past, and there will, 
no doubt, be matters in connection with education 
which might merit discussion, but I doubt v>;hether this 
little routine Bill has any of those elements. 

^;IR. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. 
Speaker, I think the question which arises in one's 
mind, following what the Hon. Prime Minister has said, 
is this: I agree with him that in this Bill I can see 
no objectionable features. I think my mind was clear 
on it until the hon. Member for St. Andrew (Mr. 
Salsberg) spoke about it this afternoon. I think the 
point to keep in mind is the fact that this Bill, if 
it goes before the Education Committee will be passed 
upon, and come back as a matter of form. I think 
all Bills referring to education. 

(Page C-8 follows. ) 


should be referred to the Education Coimriittfee, and 
then the Bills which are not so important, will go 
through in the natural course, and the ones which are 
of more importance, will be recognized by the Committee, 
and debated at length. But how can you pick and choose 
what should go before the Comrlttee, and what should not? 

M. FROST (Prime Minister): '.'e v/ill give con- 
sideration to that, later on. 

I5fi. DUI^LOP: This Bill provides equality of 
opportunities for those who otherwise would hot have 

MR. ^'J. H. HOUCK: (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker, 
may I ask a question of the Hon. Minister? He spoke 
about the auxiliary classes, the inauctrial classe ., 
and so forth. ^^ho decides into which category these 
chilcren should go, 

I'R. LUKLOP: I have a bill coming u::>, Mr. 
Speaker, regarding thi auxilli^.ry classes, which will 
make one part of it clear. In this case we t re netting 
up a Board to decide v.jho shoiild go on to the indus rial 

Itotion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

CLZiRI v^F TH..-- HOb^L: 24th order; second readin^- 


of Bill No. 66, "An Act to amend the Auxilllary 
Classes Act. " 

He said: Mr. Speaker, the purposes of this 
Bill are three-fold. There is in the Act now, 
regarding auxilliary classes, a reference to a 
school medical inspector. We have not those any 
more, and the reference is obsolete, so we are 
changing that, in order that we may have a local 
qualified psychiatrist or a local qualified medical 
practitioner on the particular board, to decide 
who should go to the auxilliary classes, and who 
should not. 

Then we have, in many cases, more than one 
inspector in a locality. The old Act, which is 
now proposed to be amended, provided that the 
school inspector must be a member of the Board. 
We are proposing now that the senior school in- 
spector may now nominate one of the other inspec- 
tors to take his place. Then there is the prin- 
cipal of the school. Those three make up the 
Board to decide who shall go to the auxilliary 
classes, and who shall go to the ordinary elemen- 
tary classes. 

That is the purpose of the Bill, Mr. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 


HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I move you do now leave the Chair and the 
House resolve Itself into committee of the whole. 


Motion agreed to. 

The House In Committee. 

MR . Downer in the Chair . 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Chairman, I beg to inform the House that the 
Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, having been 
informed of the subject matter of these several 
resolutions, recommends them to the consideration 
of the House . 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution No. 1, 

Government notices of motion, by Mr. Porter: 

"Resolved, that, the Lieutenant- 
Governor in Council may direct payment 
out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund to 
any municipality of such portion of the 
cost of a juvenile court as he may deter- 
mine, as provided by Bill No. ^3, An Act 
to amend The Juvenile and Family Courts 

Resolution agreed to, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution by Mr. 


"Resolved, that, the Lieutenant-Governor 
in Council may provide for the making of 
grants by the Minister of Agriculture out 
of such moneys as may be appropriated 
therefor by the Legislature to reimbuse 
municipalities, as provided by Bill No. 
54, The Warble Ply Control Act, 1952." 

Resolution agreed to. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Resolution No. 5 by 

Mr. Challies: 

Resolved, that, the Lieutenant-Governor 
in Council maj^ raise by way of loan in the 
manner provided by The Provincial Loans 
Act such sums as the Lieutenant-Governor 
in Council may deem requisite for the 
purposes of The Power Commission Act and 


of The Niagara Development Act, 1951 
and of The St. Lawrence Development Act, 
1932, and the sums so raised may either 
be advanced to The Hydro-Electric Power 
Commission of Ontario or applied by the 
Treasurer of Ontario in the purchase of 
notes, bonds, debentures or other securi- 
ties of the Hydro-Electric Power Com- 
mission of Ontario, as provided by Bill 
No. 70, An Act to amend The Power 
Commission Act. " 

Resolution agreed to. 

HON. L. M. PROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Chairman, I move the Committee do now rise and 
report certain resolutions. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House resumes; 

Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 

MR. A. W. DOWNER (Dufferin-Simcoe) : Mr. 
Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House begs 
leave to report it has come to certain resolutions, 
and moves the adoption of the report. 

Motion agreed to. 

(Take "D" follows) 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Private bills. First 
order, second reading of Bill No. 1, an Act respect- 
ing the Town of New Toronto . Mr . Brandon . 

MR. W. E. BRANDON (York West) moves 
second reading of Bill Intituled, "An Act respec- 
ing the Town of New Toronto". 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Second order. Second 
reading of Bill No. 2, an Act respeclng the City 
of Sarnfa Separate School Board. Mr. Cathcart. 


MR. T. R. DENT (Oxford), In the absence of 
Mr. Cathcart , moves second reading of Bill Intituled, 
"An Act respecting the City of Sarnla Separate 
School Board," 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Third order. Second 
reading Bill No. 19, An Act respecting St. Patrick's 
Home of Ottawa. Mr. Morrow. 

MR. W. MURDOCH (Essex South), In th« absence 
of Mr. Morrow, moves second reading *f Bill Intituled, 
"An Act respecting St. Patrick's Home of Ottawa." 

Motion agreed to; second reading •f the 



CLERIC OF THE HOUSE: Order No. 4, second 
reading Bill No. 28, an Act respecting the Canadian 
National Exhibition Association. Mr. Frost (Bracondale) 

MR. A. FROST (Bracondale) moves second 
reading of Bill intituled, "An Act Respecting the 
Canadian National Exhibition Association." 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fifth order, second 
reading Bill No. 31, an Act respecting Credit Foncier 
Franco-Canadien. Mr. Roberts (St. Patrick). 

IVIR. K. ROBERTS (St. Patrick) moves second 
reading of Bill intituled, "An Act respecting Credit 
Foncier Franco-Canadien." 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth order, resuming 
the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment 
to the motion for an Address in Reply to the Speech of 
the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor at the opening 
of the Session. Mr. Frost. 

(Page D-3 follows. ) 


m. J. YARjilKO (Bellwoods): Mr. Speaker, 
there are times in a man's life v/hen he feels a very 
compelling urge to inform those who are about him of 
certain strong feelings and emotions which are within 
him. This is such a time for me. 

There have been extended to you very sincere 
congratulations by many of the Honourable Members. I 
join with them. My thoughts, however, perhaps go a 
little further in the matter of yourself and the position 
you occupy. In order that you may completely understand 
me. Sir, I should like to inform you of my background. 
I am the son of an immigrant — my father was one of 
the hundreds of thousands who just prior to '/orld War I, 

came to Canada in search of a new life. That wave 
of pioneers brought with them many things that enriched 
Canada. Few, however, because of the oppression that 
they had lived under, brought with them any memories of 
freedom they had — but traditions of free political 
institutions they had not. 

From an early age, therefore, I had an avid 
thirst for the knowledge of the development of the 
democratic institutions of which this Legislature is a 
prime example. That development is well known to you. 
Sir, and though it is a fascinating and glorious 
history, I shall not presume upon your indulgence in 
reviewing it. But I will say this, that in my humble 
opinion the personification of these institutions 
lies within the person of the speaker — and you Sir, 
having regard to your pledge upon the assumption of 
the Chair, and the dignified and very able 


manner in which you have fulfilled and are ful-. 
filling your duties are truly the embodiment of 
what a Speaker should be. This I say with the 
utmost sincerity. For never do I enter this 
chamber but I am seized of the realization of the 
tremendous honour and equivalent responsibility 
caso upon those who are privileged to take part 
in the deliberations here, and of the fact that I 
too may now be part of a tradition. May I never 
cease to be seized of that realizaaion. 

I enter this Chamber too, keenly aware of 
a trust that has been reposed in me for I am 
cognizant of the representation I have to make. 

We often have reference to a community as 
being a cross section of Canada. Truly and 
factually Mr. Speaker, my riding is a cross section 
of Canada. Within it are to be found citizens who 
trace their families here through many generations, 
there are those, like my father, who immigrated 
here within a span of time measured in years, there 
are those like myself of a first generation, there 
are a large number who only days ago were in 
Europe. The people of the riding pome from all 
stocks -- there are the basic groups — the English, 
French, Irish, Scottish, and Mr. Speaker, the Welsh 
— in addition there are large numbers of high 
concentrations of the other stocks that make up our 
Canadian citizenry -- the Polish, Ukrainian, Jewish, 


Italian^ German, Slovak/ Esthonlan, Latvian, 
Lithuanian, Czech, Japanese, Chinese and represent- 
atives from many other countries. 

In the Riding within a few minutes walking 
distance you will find, the Protestant Churches, the 
Catholic Churches, the Sj'nagogues, and each in all 
their variety -- yes Mr. Speaker, within a fraction 
of an hour one can visit seven (7) Churches in which 
God is worshipped each in a different tongue. Within 
the Riding too you will find industrial plants, k 
shops, stores and homes. And in those homes you will 
find life at all economic levels. 

Truly, Mr. Speaker, were you to seek a glimpse 
of the Canadian Scene in concentrated form you would 
find it in Bellwoods Riding. 

Yet I am sure that each Honourable Member 
in the House could say the same but to a lesser 
degree. The scene, Mr. Speaker, is not one of a 
melting pot -- it is a picture of individuals of 
many backgrounds Integrated into the Canadian way of 
life. And it is a dynamic picture. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am proud of my riding, 
and the people that form its makeup. They live, 
they work, they play, they worship each in his own 
way, side by side. It has been my personal privilege 
to live in Intimate contact with most of them, within 
every phase of their community life. The tremendous 
contribution by all is known to me by dally contact 
throughout my life. Would that I had the time. Sir, 



to go Into detail. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) summed It up very well In a speech made in 
Oshawa last fall. He said in part: 

"Each race brings to us something of 
its peculiar skills, its manners, its 
comtoms, indeed many factors of real worth 
that, welded into our economy, makes 
still better the good Canadian way of 
life. I have been deeply interested in 
the contribution the new citizens of 
this land can nBke to our way of like, 
the additions of culture and vigour, of 
their interest in freedom. They are 
part and parcel of what has been termed 
our Canadian Mosaic", 

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the additions 

and this welding process is going on at the present 

date. I bring to your attention that of the some 

150 thousand immigrants to Canada in 1951, 100 

thousand settled in Ontario. It is a tribute to 

the nature of this Province and its administration 

that this choice was deliberately made. 

The expanding economy, the industrial 

growth, the opportunities in Ontario are readily 

apparent to all. The efforts, and results 

achieved, by this Government in the development of 

this Province are quickly recognized by even the 

most immediate arrival and he is eager to fit 

himself into the picture. The Legislation outlined 

in the Throne Speech respecting the development of 

power in conjunction with the All-Canadian Seaway 

is, indded, an instance of the first order. It is 

forward steps of this kind in the progress of Ontario, 


together with the influx of additional human resources, 
that will form a basic part of our future. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, my curiosity was picLued 
by the analysis made by the hon. Member for St, Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) on the mandate of the people on 
2E November, 1951, on a percentage basis. I think he 
urged the government to a certain degree of modesty. 
I am sure they have plenty of that. It is interesting 
to note in speaking of percentages that the party 
represented by the hon. llember (Mr. Salsberg) polled 
only .7^ of the total vote in Ontario — and so, in 
truth on his own stand, even his own party is over 
represented by ,0o. But v/ere we to follow a general 
practice of carrying a fraction to its nearest whole, 
it would follow that the party the hon. Member (Mr. 
Salsberg) represents , has the full total of the 
representation it deserves. 

But the hon. Member (Mr. Salsberg) should be 
the last to urge modesty — for certainly the hon. 
Member's (Mr. Salsberg' s) participation in the 
deliberations of this Assembly bears no proportion to 
the representation he embodies. Truly, he should be 
proud of a democratic procedure that enables this. 

Some reference was also made by the hon. 
Member (Mr. Salsberg) the loss to this Assembly and to 
the Province in the failure of the former member for 
Bellwoods to be re-elected. That I, for one, and it 
would appear that the vast majority of the voters of 



Bellwoods agree with me, do not share that sense of 
regret, would be an under- statement. Mr. Deputy- 
Speaker, I may say, that I am loathe to touch upon 
this but the matter was not of my initiating. I may 
say further that I do not share the hon. Member's 
(Mr. Salsberg's) confidence that the former hon. 
Member will return, at least not from Bellwoods,- 

It was predicted by their supporters that the 
two of them "would give the Tories the finest licking 
they ever had in the Ontario Capital", "/hat happened 
is now physically evident. 

However, there are matters upon which I did 
intend to touch. The Throne Sppech indicates the path 
that the government is taking; it is a direct 
continuation and expansion of the program upon which 
the government had gone to the people, a programme 
and method of fulfilling it that the people endorsed. 

The programme of the party of which the for- 
mer Member for Bellwoods was the leader, and which the 
hon. Member for St.- Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) now 
represents was also laid before the people. That the 
two of them were fully competent to present this 
programme, I am sure that the hon. Member for St. 
Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) and I will for once be in 
agreement, and that they presented it very fully is 
a matter of record. .'-Tiat they presented, what they 
represented, and their method of presentation went to 


the people and were there adjudged. The approach of 
the hon. Member for St. Andrew( Mr. Salsberg) the 
facts and conclusions drawn by him in his speech in 
the Throne Speech Debate, were fully presented by the 
former member for Bellwoods in his usual pungent and 
dramatic style in radio addresses on November 6th and 
on other occasions. The people in Bellwoods Riding 
have clearly indicated what worth and validity they 
placed in them. 

However, the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. 
Salsberg) is committed to such an approach — for it is 
interesting to note that his conclusions are definitely 
shared by all the members of his party. On February 
24th we find Mr. Buck, the leader of the Labour- 
Progressive Party at Massey Hall saying — and I am 
quoting from the Canadian Tribune — which I assure the 
hon. Member for St. Andrew (Mr, Salsberg) I never fail 
to read: 

"They are stultifying the growth of our 
country and condemning our children and 
grandchildren to becoming hewers of wood 
and carriers of water for the U.S. Monopoly" < 

In the same issue of the Tribune — we find 
Trustee Edna Ryerson, one of the School Trustees for 
Toronto, drawing the conclusion for the members of the 
Board, from a speech of the Honourable Minister of 
Education — "that he envisages the majority of young 
people as hewers of wood and drawers of water". 

Small wonder then, that the hon. Member 
for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) also speaks of "the use 

■LJIC !■' 



of the Canadian people as hewers of wood and drawers 
of wqter for the profit and to the glory of V/all 

I may say, Mr. Deputy Speaker — that being 
a reader of the L.P.P. literature, I am convinced — 
judging from the expert and continuous paraphrasing 
used — and from the hon. Member's (Mr. Salsb erg's) 
speech on the Throne Speech Debate — that his constant 
opposition will be based on the premise that he has so 
fully indicated. 

V/ould he prefer that in place of the splendid 
spirit of co-operation which generally exists between 
the people of this province and our neighbours to the 
south we, too, should have an "iron curtain." And when 
the hon. Member for Essex North (Mr. Reaume) informs 
this House of the millions of visitors that pour into 
this province each year — should we forbid their 
entryj because they too might catch a glimpse of 
the worth of this province and the people within it. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is true the affairs 
and future of the province are inextricably linked with 
the affairs and future of Canada. I am sure that each 
and everyone here is proud to stand up and say "I am 
a Canadian — I am the sole master of my fate". But 
all of us recognize the worth and necessity of our 
traditional bonds and friendships. For certainly 
Canada within a British Commonwealth is a stronger 
Canada, and Canada co-operating v/ith the U.S.A., is 
a more potent Canada. 


I decry the use by the Labour Progressive 
Party of the natural feeling of independence of this 
nation as a lever to pry apart those ties we all hold 
dear. They boast of their battle for 30 years against 
British Imperialism , and now— speaking of fictions — 
they have discovered American Imperialism. Vfliy are 
they so determined that, we, living as masters in our 
own homes , should not also live in friendship and 
unity with our neighbours and with those with whom v/e 
have natural ties. 

The recent death of our late Monarch and 
the sorrow it brought to millions in Canada and in the 
Commonwealth clearly demonstrated how deeply all 
cherished our tradioional bonds. The tremendous 
syspathy extended by the people of the U.S.A. was 
that of friends to friends. 

The government has taken the right approach 
to these matters. The proposals regarding the 
development of power and the seaway clearly indicate 

v/e live our own lives, but we grasp the 
extended hands of proven friends. 

(Page D-12 follows. ) 


Always being aware, because of the close 
proximity, to the prophocie.. of the hon. membor 
from St, Andrews (Mr. Sals berg) -- I examined the 
speech from the Throne for a prophecy that he had 
hijrled at the electors in a radio broadcast prior 
to £2 November - - and here again I quote from the 
Canadian Tribune, 

"<r.B. Salsberg said in a radio address last 
week that he had "good reason to know" that the Frost 
Government was planning to introduce new anti-union 
legislation if they win the November 22nd election. 
The well known labour Leader who has been L.P.?, 
M.P.P, for St. Andrews for the past eight years 
charged: "Anti -Labour laws to further hog -tie the 
trade union movements arc being prepared by the Tories 
of Q,uebec and this province. This is one reason why 
JLr, Frost brought the snap election." 

Then again the isoue of 18th February 1952 
reported the issuance bj him of the following prophetic 
warning : 

That he had reason to know that "Anti -labour 

Legislation is actually being framed and will 

be introduced during the co^iig session of the • 

Ontario Legislature", 

I haxe no doubt but that the hon. member (Mr, 
•ialsberg) will be re-examing "his good reasons to know", 
now that the Throne Speech is before -us. 

The field of labour relations is one of the utmost 
importance v^^ithin an economy such as exists in Ontario, 


And here again thero must be a mutual understating by- 
all parties as to their rights and responsibilities. 
The strength of a community as a whole is dependent 
upon the strength of its component parts. Recognition 
must at all times be made of the role that each has 
to play for the benefit of all. The common good is 
always at stake v^/hen points of difference arise - - - 
and their resolution speedily and amicably is the 
goal of all good labour legislation. 

And so, Mr. Speaker, at this point, I should like 
to bring to the attention of yourself and all the members 
of this House of the well deserved r ecognitions. paid 
to the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) in this 
week^s issue of Saturday Night, where on the basis of 
his avoidance of the g&s strike, breaking the impasse 
in the stro:;.t car strike, and settling of the Ford 
Strike immedi t3ly, they speak of his pattern for 
mediation in labour disputes. 

■i'ruly Mr. Speciker,! am sure that all hon, members 
of this House will heartily endorse this pattern and 
the underlying principles of continued negotiations. 

Mr. Speaker I am a supporter of a government 
that attends to the planning of the future of the 
Province in all aspects. One of the chief of these 
is the education of the people and thoroughness and 
planning has been the approach of this government in 
that respect. 

I should like to make special reference to the 
policy and vrork of the Department of Education in 
respect to the newcomer. The work of the Community 


Programmes Branch in this regard is known in most 

cases only to those in direct contact with it. Yet 

it is so admirable, and such a tremendous departure 

from the indifference that existed in those years when 

eramigrants first started to come to Canada many years 

ago that it certainly deserves more than a mere mention, 

The underlying principle of the Branch's 

approach to the settlement of newcomers to Ontario was 

the fulfilment of two basic needs, 

FIRSTLY ; The immediate needs of the newcomers, 

i.e., English Language and some general 

factual information about our country, 


SECONDLY: Long term need for instructions about 

Canadian institutions and our way of 

life which would help newcomers to 

qualify for Canadian Citizenship. 

This work is being carried out throughout 

the province, wherever facilities are available, where 

newcomers are either settled or employed. The growth 

and scope of this undertaking is shown in the following 


In I'larch, 1949, there were, under the School 
Boards of the Province, The Beard of 
Education of Toronto, and the Community 
Programmes Branch, 533 classes with an 
enrollment cf 12,289, in December, 1951, 
there were 756 classes with an enrollment 
of 23,088. 

With very few exceptions, the newcomers are 


not called upon to pay for their training in English 
or Citizenship which take place in classes set up 
through the various school boards or in industrial 
establishments. The cost of instruction is subject to 
legislative grants for night schools, in the case of 
high schools, vocational schools, collegiate institutes 
and continuation schools and may be included in the 
approved costs of operation grants, subject to the 
approval of the school inspector, in the case of public 
shhools. In 1951, the grant to the City of Toronto, 
for example, was some 141,000,000 All other classes 
are paid for directly by the Community Programmes 
Brand . 

The importance of this work cannot be over- 
emphasized — what a stirring sight it is to see pouring 
into one of the high schools in Bellwood's Riding for 
an evening session hundreds of newcomers. Their 
eagerness and enthusiasm is a wonderful thing to see. 

An innovation was made in 1948 when 13 
half-hour programs were broadcast simultaneously from 
nine (9) stations in Polish and Ukrainian, giving the 
newcomers a general picture of Canada's past, and how 
others had succeeded in establishing themselves. I 
had the privilege of being present at the preparation 
of one of the broadcasts — and what an impressive 
thing it was to hear a young man born and educated in 
this province — speaking in his native tongue to 
newcomers of the development and present day facts 
of life in Canada, 


I coinmend most heartily the Hon. Minister 
of Education (Mr. Dunlop) In regard to these matters 
and suggest that expansion and extension along these 
lines should be continuously pursued. 

I should like to add a word of commendation 
to that group of citizens v/ho through the non-profit 
organization called "The Canadian Scene" provide the 
foreign language press of Canada of 59 newspapers In 
10 different tongues with a circulation of 300,000, 
with a weekly news report presenting all sides of 
Canadian life. The aspect of education and citizenship 
are but two in ■w.'hich there must be the fullest 
co-operation between authorities at all levels. 
Planning is the sole answer to the fulfilment of the 
generally recognized need for Immigration on a large 
scale into Canada. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the proposals set 
forth in the Throne Speech are a true exemplification 
cf the government's policy — of extending and 
expanding that which has been found good and necessary, 
and of opening new fields that add to the general 
welfare of this province. Needs that arise in fields 
of proven worth, successful experiments and research 
in new ventures, are followed by putting the answers 
and results into the dally life of the people of the 
province. Matters are dealt v^rith both on the basis 
of present-day requirements, and with a vision to the 

The electors of this province have placed 


those requirements and that future in our hands, I 
know we shall not fail them. 


MR. A. K. ROBERTS (St .Patrick) : Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, despite the fact that I did sit here in two 
earlier Legislatures, the 21st and the 22nd, as I arise 
to address this Assembly to-day, there is a certain 
strangeness about the appearance of it that makes me 
feel, in a way, as though I were making my maiden speech 
in this House. Of course, you yourself, Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, have just recently assumed your high office 
and we will all have to learn from you in the days ahead. 
I congratulate j''ou on this occasion on your election. 
I did not have the pleasure of being in the House when 
Mr, Speaker Vv'as first elected, but his reputation 
preceded him into this House, and we all know that he 
will be fair but firm in his decisions and in 
presiding over this House, 

When I first entered this House as a 
member, a nev/ly elected Government, a compact Government 
of some thirty-eight hon, members occupied seats on this 
side of the House, up to about where I now am. To my 
right and overflowing entirely on the other side were 
members who were potential opponents of the Government 
of the day. The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Oliver) 
said in his address a few days ago that he hoped the 
Government v/ould not ride roughshod over his supporters. 
im. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): I 


did not say that at all. Mr, Deputy Speaker, I cannot 
allov/ the hon, member (Mr, Roberts) to say that I said 
any such thing. If he was listening carefully, he would 
have understood. I said there vrere two courses open to 
the Governments "JFhe hon, member (Mr, Roberts) knows 
what 1 said, 

MR. ROBERTS: I take it he vms pointing it 
out bccauce he did not want us to ride roughshod, 

IIR. OLIVER: Go ahead and get rough if you 
wan I to. 

MR. ROBEP.TS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition 
(Mr. Oliver) and those others who sat in opposition at 
that time rode herd over the Government of the day. 
Then, the people of the province had their say and we 
came back, and at that time we were not a big Government 
although we overflowed generously on to the other side. 
Then, there began a little game betv;een the two main 
opposing forces against the Government of the day, a 
little game I -flight call musical chairs. One Session 
v;e v/ould have the C.C.F. in opijosition officially, the 
next Session, we would have the Liberals. To-day, when 
v;e viev/ the House as it now is constituted, I would 
point out, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that there is one- 
seventeenth in number of representation of the same 
official C.C.F. Party sitting in this House to-day, and 

■ 1 ■.. 


while the Liberals did not suffer violent shocks, 
there are approximately one-half in number in the 
House to-day to v/hat there v/as in 1944. 

There was, at that time, a representation 
of communists. I think they were openly called 
communists in those days, the name was changed to 
Labor-Progressive shortly afterwards to suit the 
exigencies of the occasion and has remained that 
since. Thanks to the hon. member for Bellwoods 
(lir. Yaremko) who gave a very excellent address in 
the House this afternoon, and whom I, at this state, 
welcome as a worthy and superior successor to the 
person who sat in that seat previously, the 
representation of the Labor-Progressive Party was 
halved. ' 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, though he is not in 
the House, I vrauld like to say this, that while I 
have nothing but reasonably friendly feelings towards 
the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) as an 
individual, in the light of what the Government of 
Russia and the people behind the Iron Curtain, and 
the Satellites, and those for whom he and others 
like him, are training in this country, the burden 
they have placed on Canada and people of the western 
nations, in the way of added expense and taxes and 
in the way of difficulties arising over what is an 
unbelievably hostile situation, as a 


result of the Russicn attitude since the last War, I 
say, in all sincerity, would to God that the communist 
representation in this Legislature had been entirely 
eliminated from this House last November. 

(Take F-1 follows) 


The hon. member for St, undrew (Kr, Salsberg) 
is not in his place, as I say that, 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Mr. Oliver) in the 1951 campaign when he 
heard from the ramparts the would-be, but could-not-be 
imitator of Mitchell F. Hepburn, his leader at large 
then and ever since provincially seatless, about a 
great catch-all of votes, the Hospital Care Plan, 
declared from the ramparts of his South Gray fortress 
to all and sundry that "the Frost Government is on 
the defensive, it is retreating everjwhere". '.'/ell, 
Mr. Deputy Speaker, what a defence; what a retreat! 

I am reminded of the story concerning a 
fighter who went into the ring partially trained, to 
do battle against a very experienced, skilled fighter, 
and after he had taken a bit of pummelling for a time, 
some irate fan said, "Put up your arms and fight like 
a man," The disconsolate and bewildered fighter 
turned and shouted back, "I'd rather put up my ears 
and run like a rabbit," 

Well, Mr, Deputy Speaker, we know what 
happened, and there was indeed a decimation of the 
Opposition forces. 

The position of survivorship is something to 
which I wrleh to draw attention, because despite the 


smallness of our Opposition numerically, I am very- 
pleased personally to see the countenances of the two 
very experienced, and I say in all sincerity, very 
excellent representatives of their riding, in the 
persons of the hon. member for Brant (Mr, Nixon), and 
the Hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Oliver) . The 
probability is, as was so well said, by the hon, 
member for ''Jellington North (Mr. Root) that theirs was 
more of a personal triumph than that of a party victory. 
However, we are all glad to see them here. 

I would like, Kr. Deputy Speaker, to draw the 
attention of the House to a comment that came from a 
distant place, and while much to the point, was rather 
unexpected, concerning the election in November last, 
in order to give what I think is undoubtedly a detached 

I refer to an editorial appearing in the 
Winnipeg Free Press on Monday, November 26th last, 
a few days after our general election in this Province, 

After setting out some of the numerous promises 

of the then Liberal leader, and mentioning also the 

intention of the Opposition, if elected, to cut taxes, 

it goes on to say: 

"Against these campaigns of unlimited extra- 
vagance I'r. Frost, the Leader of the Conser- 
• vative Party, stood firmly. His campaign 



was not free of proraises, but in every case 
the greater expenditure v;ould arise out of 
the enlargement of an existing policy." 

And in conclusion, the article says: 

"Vfliile Mr, Frost wears the laurel, and for the 
first time in his own right has achieved 
the leadership of his Party and the premier- 
ship of the province, the real winnrers in 
the Ontario election are the people. It is true, 
the out-come is too one-sided. But the fault 
here is that the Opposition Parties gave the 
electors no acceptable alternative. The 
voting is a tribute to the sanity and sense of the 
people and the result can be studied v\fith great 
profit both to themselves, and to the country, 
by public men at Ottawa and in the other pro- 

I do not think I could pay a more fitting tribute 
to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) of this province, 
and the hon, members o his government in connection with 
that electia)n, than to quote as I have from the editorial 
in the i.innipeg Tribune. 

In the riding of St, Patrick, Mr. Deputy Speaker, 
there are many guests at the moment. Many of the hon, 
members from different ridings are temporarily resident with- 
in the confines of that very excellent, cosmopolitan 
riding of St, Patrick. The riding includes Toronto 
Island — and I nx\y sa>^ to the hon. member for Grenville- 
Dundas (Mr. Ghallies) that if this great project he has 
in coi'templation for Hydro, raises the level of 
Lake Ontario but a few inches, I stand to lose a 


number of constituents on the Island, who are in real 
danger of submersion. 

The riding also includes the Royal York and 
other large hotels, the great hospital centre along 
University Avenue, the Women's College Hospital, the 
Psychiatric Hospital, Queen's Park, the Museum, the 
University of Toronto, and its environs. I might say, 
in passing, that the hon, member for St. Andrew (IV'r. 
Salsberg) lives in my riding, but he has not asked 
too many favours as yet. As a matter of fact, I think 
he realizes he would not get too many, 

I'lay I say to the hon. members in this House 
who are temporarily residing in my riding, that it is 
a very interesting one; it includes Chinatown, among 
other things, and, of course, it includes the Royal 
Alexandra Palace, which is partly a nurses' home, 
and partly a place for hon, members to live, 

ii . Mr, Deputy Speaker, so much for my riding, 
I would like to refer now to the hon. member for St, 
Andrew (Mr, Salsberg), inasmuch as he is in his place, 
and particularly to the events of last '"/ednesday and 
Thursday when, on Wednesday he attempted to delay the 
Bill then under discussion, and on Thursday attempted 
to divide those who think as we, and the Opposition 


groups in this House, on those great questions of the 
day. I was amazed, not at the intricacy, but the 
"b.efuddlement" — if that is the proper word — of his 
argument in regard to the development of the great 
deposits of iron ore in Labrador, and in other parts 
of Canada, Either he does not know, or he deliberately 
kept away from saying that this country has been import- 
ing many millions of tons of iron ore yearly to keep 
the steel industries we have in operation, and it will 
require at least a year or two at the increased rate 
of production before our exports will equalize our 
imports. When that time comes, it is hoped that the 
development of the steel industry will take place in 
Canada, but it would be the height of absurdity, and 
drive us to the verge of bankruptcy, to proceed along 
the lines he suggested, before we have the product 
available for use in our plants. 

May I point out, Mr, Deputy Speaker, that the 
future is extremely bright in connection with this 
industry, and we confidently look forward to the 
next five or six years when there will be from three 
to four times the amount of production of iron ore in 
Canada than there is at the present time; close to 
twenty million in approximately five years, a tremendous 


increase, representing approximately one hundred million 
dollars more revenue, -- and most of it in American 
funds — for the people of Canada and for Ontario, 
and we anticipate getting a v ery fair share of that 
as a result of the development of iron ore in this 

Mr, Deputy Speaker, I want to turn for 
a moment or two to a subject which I think is of 
considerable interest, I hope it has not become 
hackneyed; to me it will never become hackneyed, and 
I think it should be discussed both in this House and 
out of it , 

I want to speak on the word "Dominion" in 
relation to Canada, and here I would like to refer to 
my notes, because most of what I have to say comprises 
quotations, and as a result of some research in con- 
nection with this work, and its origin. 

(Page F-7 follows) 


So Intense a controversy has arisen during 
recent weeks by what to me appears to be the wholly 
unprovoked and unjustified action of certain 
officials and authorities of the Ottawa Government 
in going out of their way to remove the word 
"Dominion"' from its context in relation to Canada 
so that I am impelled to take up a short period of 
the time of this Legislature, Mr. Speaker, to refer 
to this subject. 

Like most of the honourable members of this 
House, I have become so accustomed to the term 
"Dominion of Canada" or "the Dominion'' or "Dominion- 
Provincial Relations" that I have been slow to 
appreciate the alleged inroads on the use of these 
terms which have gained such universal recognition 
and usage. My curiosity being aroused, I . 
first consulted the Oxford Dictionary for a defini- 
tion of the word "Dominion." I find that it is 
shown as meaning in this order, "Lordship, Sover- 
eignty, Control; Domains of Puedal Lord, Territory 
of Sovereign or Governor (Dominion of Canada, name 
given to Canadian colonies united 196?; Dominion of 
New Zealand, title given 190?)." 

Then I looked at the Encyclopaedia Britannlca, 
under the heading of "Canada" and what do I find as the 
first few words appearing there, nothing less than 
"The Dominion of Canada comprises the northern half 
of the continent of North America." 

Then, following up the suggestion that there 

. ( ; 'j 


was some hostility to the use of the word "Dominion'' 
because it did not have a proper equivalent in the 
French language, I examined recognized French 
language dictionaries. Harrap's Standard French 
and English Dictionary gives the English word 
"Dominion" having the following meanings in French: 
"domination, maltrise, autorite, empire, ascendant, 
le Dominion du Canada." The word "matrise" means 
freedom or mastership. I could find nothing there 
as a source of irritation to any overly susceptible 
nationalists . 

Turning to the Bible, in the very first 
chapter of Genesis, we find it is said of man "And 
have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the 
fowls of the air and over every living thing that 
moveth upon the face of the Earth." And of course, 
in the New Testament, the referring to Christ having 
risen from the grave, we have "Death hath no more 
dominion over him". 

Robert Burns, less seriously, says, 

"I'm truly sorry man's dominion. 
Has broken nature's social union." 

And of course there is Kipling's famous 

"Dominion over palm and pine", and an author as long 

ago as 1829, said, 

"His Majesty's Dominions on which 
the sun never sets." 

Incidentally it was the same author as the 

one who is credited with "Laws are made to be broken." 


And then J Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are the 

words which I believe jou pronounce^t the opening of 

every session of this House, 

"The safety, honour and welfare of 
our Sovereign and her Dominions . " 

If one were to consult any of the numerous 
histories and textbooks of our time on Canada, one 
would find that they are shot through and through 
with references to and use of the words "the 
Dominion". Take for example a very recent history 
of Canada, known as "The Dominion of the North" by 
Donald Grant Creighton, on one page alone (308) 
dealing with the Federal system, he uses the word 
"Dominion" not less than six times and R. McGregor 
Dawson in his "The Government of Canada" (1947), 
devotes a whole chapter, chapter Z, to "Dominion 
Status. " 

My friend Professor George W. Brown, in the 
United Nations Series Book entitled "Canada" which 
he edited (1950), has many references to the 

Just a few days ago, in one of our news- 
papers, a reference was made to the paper prepared 
by the late Field Marshal Smuts in 1919 and sub- 
mitted by Sir Robert Borden to Prime Minister 
Lloyd. George on "The status of Dominion Governors- 
General". Time and again in that paper, use is 
made of the word 'Dominion', 'the Dominion Govern- 
ment ' , 'the Dominion peoples ' . 

■ n: 


The late Dr. John W. Dafoe, once well known 

editor of a Winnipeg paper^ became an authority on 

Federal and Provincial relations, and said, 

"Without the principle of Federation 
there would not have been a Dominion 
of Canada and the application of 
this principle is still essential to 
the survival of the Dominion . '■ 

The first preamble to the British North 

America Act itself sa^s, 

"Whereas the Provinces of Canada, 
Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, have 
expressed their desire to be federally 
united in one Dominion under the Crown 
of the United Kingdom and Great Britain 
and Ireland with a constitution similar 
in principle to that of the United 
Kingdom. " 

Jean Bruchesi in his recent history, 

"Canada realites d'hier et d 'aujourdhui " 1948, at 

page 181 - after stating that the Constitution of 

1867 had been adopted, sa^'S, referring to Sir John 

A Macdonald, and the pact, 

"Sans partager L'enthousiasme de 
cet homme politique Anglais, pour 
qui le Dominion etait appels poutetre 
a 're Jeter dans 1 'ombre meme L 'Angle - 
terre ' . 

In 1931, the Statute of Westminster has 
as its first preamble, 

"Whereas the delegates of His Majesty's 
Government in the United Kingdom, the 
Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth 
of Australia, the Dominion of New 
Zealand, the Union of South Africa, the 
Irish Free State and Newfoundland", etc. 

And in that Act the word "Dominion" is defined as 

meaning any of the following Dominions, that is 


to sa;, ., "the Dominion of Canada, the Common- 
wealth of Australia, the Dominion of New 
Zealand, the Union of South Africa, the Irish 
Free State." 

And may I draw attention to the second 
section of the Statute of Westminster, 

"(i) The Colonial laws Validity Act 
1865^ shall not apply to any 
law made after the commencement 
of this Act by the Parliament 
of a Dominion. " 

Section 3 reads, 

"It is hereby declared and enacted 
that the Parliament of a Dominion has 
full power to make laws having extra- 
territorial operation." 

(Page F-IE follows) 


Mr, Speaker, an examination of the various 
Canadian cases dealing with constitutional matters 
which were before the Supreme Court of Canada and 
until recently, the Privy Council, show that time 
and again our nation is referred to as the Dominion 
of Canada and the word "Dominion" is used in countless 
ways in every-day use with respect to Departments in 
Government and matters of Government. Even the 
Encyclopaedia of I'odern '.'/arid Politics (1950) (an 
American word), under the heading of "Canada", starts 
right off with the words "The Dominion of Canada". 

Not until a good deal of damage had been 
done, did the Prime Minister of Canada make any 
reference to this recent innovation. V7hile he endeavoured 
to smile it down, so to speak, and minimize the effect of 
the action being taken, he gave no satisfactory explana- 
tion as to why it was ever started. It is difficult 
for me to believe that there is any responsible group 
in this country whose opinions are worth serious con- 
sideration, seriously objecting to the continuation of 
the phraseology and terminology embodied in the usage 
I have just described and surrounding the words "The 
Dominion of Canada" and similar combinations of words. 

Very recently, the word "realm" has been 


introduced as a possible substitute for "Dominion", 
I find by consulting the dictionary again, that the 
word "realm" means according to the Oxford version, 
"kingdom, sphere, province, domain". I recall again 
to you, Kr. Deputy Speaker, the equivalents given for 
"Dominion" earlier, "lordship, sovereignty, control, 
domain of Feudal Lord, Territory of sovereign", I 
find it hard to see very riuc^ difference or any great 
improvement in the substitution suggested. 

I don't believe that any worthwhile body 
of public opinion, anywhere in Canada, is agitating 
for dropping the word "Dominion". I have always been 
willing to think in compromising terms on questions 
of national importance realizing the many points of 
view that are entitled to consideration in our country, 
but, I'r, Deputy Speaker, I for one, wish to go on 
record today in this Assembly, as refusing to com- 
promise with sheer nonsense which in my opinion, 
is the beginning and the end of these actions to 
eliminate the use of the word "Dominion" in our 

Canadian title. 

Notwithstanding the constant whittling that 

is going on at Ottawa, we ought not in this Legislature, 
to be unmindful of the fact there are still such things 



as provincial rights and one of them is the right in 
this province to continue the time-honoured terminology 
in the words "The Dominion of Canada". 

I sincerely hope that our new Queen -- our 
new gracious ^iUeen — and members of the Royal family, 
will come to Canada from time to tine and take up 
residence at the capital, Ottawa, without the necessity 
of undertaking Royal Tours on each occasion and that 
facilities will be set up there to make this not only 
possible, but highly desirable. 

Our Canadian Prime Minister is a very polished 
gentleman, never lacking in good manners, and I hope 
one of his last acts of office (that is, if he is 
coming towards the end of his regime, otherv/ise one 
of his early acts) will be along these lines which I 
am sure will be greatly appreciated by Canadians every- 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I just want to say a 

word of two on one or two other things, and then I 

will take my seat. I do not feel it would be amiss 

to refer again, even at the risk of repetition, to 

what has been said by other hon. members, in referring 

to the fatalities on our highways. 

Many churchgoers, when they hear repeated 


the s tory of the deaths of the first Christian martyrs 
by stoning, are shocked at the crudeness of the method, 
and yet tOr-day on our highways j the power of motor 
vehicles is so many hundreds of times the power of 
stones, that we should be even more greatly shocked 
when we read of the fatalities on our highways. 

(Take "G" follows) 


Chiof JuoticG McRuer of tho Ontario Trial 
Division of our Supremo Court olaims that a very 
substantial percentage of the fatalities on our 
highways is due in some form to or connected in 
som3 form with drinking. I wonder how many employees 
would think of drinking before going to work or how 
many employers would tolerate drinking before or at 
work by their employ jgs. Is it not time that ev^ry 
person about to take charge of a motor vehicle 
approaches that task in exactly the samo way that he 
would approach his ordinary job in his office or 
his factory or wherever it may be. 

The Lenten season brings some th ughts of 
self-discipline to many of us and this might be 
a very good time to suggest that for the next forty 
days, and perhaps forever afterwards, that everyone 
within sound of my voice and elsewhere should take 
a pledge that they will not drive a car after drinking, 
however small that drink may be. And if it takes 
three-quarters of a glass of liquor today to become 
intoxicated according to the law that is no excuse for 
"ju£:t one more" or just one more after that before 
taking on the dangerous and difficult job of driving 
a car on our crowded highways. 

Just a word now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the younger 
drivers, those under 25 years of age who accordir]g to 
statistics cause a good many accidents. A sense of 
exhilaration, power, speed and daring probably causes 
some of them to feel that they must get added power 

G-2 . 

but I think when they seriously consider it they will 
realize that any fool can drive a car at full speed 
simply by putting his foot on the accelerator and 
keeping it there, and to those who cannot control 
themselves I suggest perh--ps there would bo more room 
in the air and far greater opportunity to live longer 
both for them and for others than there is on the 
crowded highways of today, 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I conclude my remarks 
this afternoon by stating that this Government, which 
has now had nearly nine years of office, has proved 
itself a good government. I do not propose to go 
through department by department tut as I look around 
and see these hon. ministers, who are in their seats and 
who constitute the Cabinet, I can join with hon, 
members who have spoken before and in an over-all 
sentence say that they are all doing excellent work 
in their departments, and that under them and imdor 
the Government as it is now constituted here, vy?ith this 
new and I think strong membership, we will go on to 
greater things in the banner Province of Canada, and 
I for one am glad to be back here to join vdth the 
others in v>hat I regard as a big and important task 
in the interests of the 4-|- million or more people in 
the Province of Ontario, 

MR. R. JVIkCiiUL^y (Riverdale): Mr. Speaker, as 
the youngoc^t and no doubt most inexperienced > 
member of this House>I would like to address myself, 
sir, to what I think is generally referred to as on^S 


maiden speech, although I have had the pleasure of 
speaking before the House once this week, I do so 
sir, with some sli^t diffidence, I have however 
before me the goal and the record of the honi Leader 
of the Opposition who at one time himself was the 
youngest hon. member of this House and who has brought 
much dignity and honour to the deliberations of it, 
and I can only hope that he felt considerably more 
secure at the time that he first addressed this House 
than I do at this time. 

If I night be pardoned, sir, a very momentary 
digression, I would like to thank those v\Jio spoke 
so kindly about my father upon tho pocasion of the 
opening of this House. I think, sir, as has been 
said by others, the hon. member for St, Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) has received attention far out of 
proportion to his importance and the role he holds 
in this House, but I cannot help but say because of 
the width of the political gulf between myself and 
himself that I think it likely we shall never again 
be found to be in accord or perhrps, sir, in the phrase 
of the street "on the same wave length", I certainly 
have no intention of being found wading in his pool 
of seconders but I cannot help but say that I am in 
accord with him, sir, when he indicated that the younger 
hon. members of this Ho\:Be, or in any event referriiig 
to three of us whose fathers had preceded us, that we 
should strike out towards new horizons. However, there 
were two horizons towni'd which niy father struck, to' . 



•; i: 




which I am entiroly cold and indifferent. The first 
is, needless to say, that I have no desire to follow 
him by being as was he "thrown into the Tower" and, 
secondly, my plans, sir, do not include finding my 
way into Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, 

However, sir, in view of the trust and confidence 
placed in my leader, the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost )^ 
and my own political affiliations, I doubt if that 
possibility is anything but a very remote one. 

I believe, Mr. Speaker, and I feel sincerely 
that each hon, member of this House is truly a member 
and a representative of a particular riding and that 
he owes an emphatic duty towards that riding, 
Nevertholes:. , sir, at the same time I think we all are 
emphatically representatives of and for the whole of 
the Province of Ontario and I have the most sincere 
hope, sir, that my humble efforts may be thought to 
be directed tovi^ards that horizon rather than to the 
particular problems of the City of Toronto. I hcvo 
no desire, sir, to be thought of as the product of 
any particular city, for although much of the processing 
of things takes place within the city of Toronto, the 
real and vast wee 1th and strength of this Province 
lies beyond its ambits. In fact, rather liian being 
a representative of this city, I would like to think 
sir, that I am the representative of a proud and 
vigorous city by the name of Riverdale composed of 
65 ,000 people, for wo. Sir, most h\imbly submit that in 
the Province of Ontario every municipality comes firsts 


and not emy particuler rural or urban area. 

Mr. Speakor, in rising to take part in the 
Jobate upon the Motion on the Speech from the Throne 
and the amendments before this House, I am conscious, 
sir, that the essence of all good government is to 
offer security to possessors, facility to acquirers 
and hope to all. And th-.t, sir, I feel has been 
the essence of the past performance of iiiis Government 
and is the keystone of its policy as indicated in the 
Speech delivered by His Honour. Although I feel, ^ir, 
that the final end of all good government, and of 
this Government in particular is not to exercise 
restraint but to do good. 

This Government is faced Vi/ith a tremendous 
housing problem and its attendant ramifications and 
in addition it must meet the game of running interfer- 
ence, played so expertly by the authorities at Ottawa 
in the nam3 anti-inflat ion. The recent legislation 
with reference to housing in this Province has had 
a tremendous ameliorative effect, and I can only think 
that those residents of this Province who are embraced 
by the legislation contemplated in the Speech from tho 
Throne, namely in the rural areas and the areas embrac- 
ing villages, towns and hamlets will welcome the 
contemplated legislation. The hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. frost) has indicated that there are certain areas 
in this Province that are not perhaps in need of 
rentals regulations and at the sane time, one would 
assume perhaps not in the same need of hoiosing 

. ill- .'■ 


accoffinodation,but with those oxcoptions, sir, I 
would submit that no area in tho province would be 
in greater need of housing and the offices of this 
Government than the rural areas and the areas, as 
I say embracing towns, villages and hamlets. 

However, sir, there is one aspect of the housing 
problem of the Province of Ontario which has a 
particular featurj vvith reference to the city of 
Toronto and that is that it does not appear the 
housing problem of this city can either be successfully 
or happily attacked or solved until the issue of 
amalgamation is also attacked and solved. Now that, 
sir, is a point and a fact which is very difficult 
indeed to paint to one's constituents and to paint 
to those in need of housing acconajo Nation and it seems, 
sir, to be but an evasion of the question when asked: 
"what acconmodatianwill be available and how soon?" 
to answer: " I can't tell you, it depends on settling 
the issue of amalgamation". I can only hope, sir, 
and I think this Government is as intorostod as any 
govornmont, perhaps more so -' in fact I am sure more 
so in thdt all municipalities involved and this 
Government will take steps which are both imaginative 
and speedy to settle the amalgamation issue so th=it 
housing may bo made available to those in this city 
who are in great need of it. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I hope I may be forgiven for 
making some representations about my own riding, and 
they will be brief. I represent a highly-industrialized 


riding of the city of Toronto compos od of humble 
but fine people. Perhaps, sir, it is the most 
or, at any rate, one of the most industrialized ridings 
in the province. I do not say so boastfully because 
neither the stimulus nor the content of the statement 
merits boasting, but on the other hand there is in 
this small area contained approximately 65,000 people 
whose living takes on attendant risks and inconveniences 
which may of necessity not be attendant on those living 
in suburban areas, rural areas or smaller urban areas. 
Sir, the boundaries of this riding are 1^ miles along 
the top, 1§ miles along the bottom, and 3-g- miles along 
each side and found within this small area, as I say, 
is a tremendous concentration of persons, but with 
them is mixed inseparably an even greater concentration 
of industry. 

There are many conditions under v/hich these 
people live, sir, which are common to the conditions 
under which persons throughout this Province live, but 
there is one condition to which I would like to make 
reference and that is that of smoke, soot, ash and 
fumes which has become a matter of the greatest urgency 
to this city, I receive, as ethers do, hundreds of 
complaints every day - hundreds upon hundreds - from 
those who are living in this area, because of the 
smoke and soot and fumes and ash, and not, sir, 
from the standpoint of inconvenience because incon- 
venience is nothing in relation to mental and physical 
incapacitation, but also from the standpoint that these 

^•1 ;■ 


people are trying to scratch out a miserable, meagre 
existence in this dirt. It is no answer to fehose 
complaints to bo told, sir, - and I have lived -with 
these people and I have been amongst them - it is 
no answer to say to them, as I have heard it said to 
hundreds of them: " you live in an industrial area, 
you have no complaint. You must accept it and if 
you don't, move out". Well, you just cannot pick 
up 65,000 people and move them elsewhere particularly 
when there are no homes or accommodation to which they 
could be moved, -and it is no solution, sir, to say 
that industry should be allowed to run rampant through- 
out a riding in complete disregard of the persons 
living in the neighbourhood} if industry will not 
voluntarily realize that it has certain responsibilties, 
then it must be made to understand by legislation, 
for although industry has certain rights it must also 
be taught that it has certain privileges and certain 

I would submit, sir, and it may sound like a 
startling statement, that the city of Toronto is one 
of the filthiest, sootiest cities in the Dominion of 
Canada, if not on the north American continent. 

Every day in my riding, day in and day out, 
smoke, soot and ash is belched into the air by giant 
concentrations of industry by the railways and by the 
steamships, and this is a matter wMch requires, sir, 
the attention of all levels of government, I know 
various persons feel in certain aroas of this city 


that the refGronco 1 am making may not hold true in 
the areas thoy roprosont or in which they find them- 
selves but certain areas south of Danforth Ave. in 
the city of Toronto truly, sir, are as I have pictured, 
for I have visited homes where women have said to me 
that they have done their washing as many as three 
times on Monday and have put it away not any cleaner 
than it was before they st'..rtGd. 

One of the most important things, Rlr. Speaker, 
is that in sooty and smoky areas, pneumonia, tuberculosis 
and cancer of the lung h'~s increased and found in 
concentrations three to five times the size and I 
think it a shame to spend millions for treatment 
of many of these cases, when thousands spent upon 
equipment which contains and collects this soot and 
smoke would, in many cases ,save the agony which results. 
It has bejn proven in addition, sir, that in this city 
and in the north American continent upon many occasions 
such equipment pays for itself in the saving of fuel 
and the collection of particles which can be merchantable 
in some form, I have the hope of interesting the 
Department of Municipal Affairs and hon. members of 
this House in putting stronger teoth into The Municipal 
.-.ct and the City by-laws which"'will bring about this result, 
for I really and sine -rjly feel this is a matter which 
deserves the greate.t attention. 

Howevor, I do want to say, Mr. Speaker, that we 
have in the city of Toronto a gentlemen by the namj of . 
Mr, Cudbird, the smoke abatement inspector wliO is a 
most able and experienced man and v;ho I feel is trying 


to do a fine and a good job but he has bcforo him a 
by-law and an Act in which thero are two many exemptions. 
He certainly is not the typo of smoke inspector who 
was appointed somewhoro around 1945 in the city of 
St, Louis, and who was very much surprised that ho 
had to make a smoke report, so he made his report and 
said: "I have looked at the smoke in the city of St. 
jjOuis for i)oc ember 1945, and I find it to be of good 

I would like for just a moment nov;, sir, to 
turn from smoke of industry in the southern part of 
this Province to the smoke of nature in the northern 
part, I should say at the outset, Mr. Speaker, that 
this is a matter which commanded my interest in 1948, 
and I hope it will be of interest to all hon. members 
of this House because it is a matter of some considerable 
size and I think of tremendous importance to the House 
as a whole and to the citizens of this Province. In 
1948, two forest fires attacked in the month of May an 
area knovm as the Mississagi area and these 
conflagrations joined together in what were crown 
and ground fires and destroyed or damaged two hundred 
and fifty million to five hundred million feet of red 
and white pine. Now, Ur, Speaker, one of the unfortunate 
incidents of any forest fire is that* although much timber 
may be completely destroyed but some of which has only been 
damaged will fall to the ground and take v.ith it much 
other timber and unless this timber is put into storage, 
that ia»put into water within a short period of time 


it is attackod by a bootle v/hich lays eggs in the bark 
and in turn those egf s develop into worms, which cat 
their way in and out of the heart of the. logs. 

(Take H Follows) 


■ Now, the importance of these fires, sir, and 
the reason I wanted to bring this to the attention 
of the House was that these fires attacked one of 
the last virgin stands of red and white pine and 
in fighting the fires, the government spent in the 
neighbourhood of $500,000 over and above its normal 
appropriation and it involved 16OO fire fighters and 
it was not until the month of July that the fires 
were brought under control. 

Then the hon. Minister of Lands and 
Forests realized that much of the timber had been 
lost but that perhaps there was a great deal which 
yet could be salvaged and the government, there- 
fore, in 19^8 in the summer took photographs from 
the air and laid out stands of timber, so that 
when efforts were made to salvage this timber all 
preparations would have been made. The government 
tried to interest independent companies in this 
salvage operation but they found it impossible » 
because of the risk Involved. There were many 
risks. There was the shortage of labour, there 
was the inaccessible level and there was a shortage 
of risk capital involved. On the other hand, the 
government was faced, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with 
time being of the essence because the beetle waits 
for no man. 

As a result of this operation much lumber 
has been salvaged -- approximately 250,000,000 
feet of red and white pine and approximately 


100,000 cords of Jackpine pulpwood. In doin^ so, 
the government expended approximately $12,000,000 
in all, of which $3,000,000 has been repaid and the 
balance it is expected will be repaid from the 
balance of lumber now available for sale. 

During the election there was great 
criticism of this undertaking and I felt it was 
only right that I should say something as a private 
member of this House in justification of what has 
been said. The criticism was apparently that 
much of this timber which was processed was going 
to the United States but, sir, as I understand it, 
lumber which is manufactured from crown lands in 
Canada and in this province can find its way to the 
United States in any event and it does not depend 
upon the size of the operation and who is involved. 
Therefore, I cannot understand the criticism, nor 
do I see the purpose behind it, unless it fell as 
part of the balance of the criticism on or about 
the 22nd of November , Just as a series of hot air 
blasts . 

The operation, sir, has been a tremendous 
success -- a tremendous success due to the ability 
and, I believe, the foresight of the hon. Minister 
of Lands and Fores-ts (Mr. Scott), 

In conclusion with reference to this matter, 
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have brought it up because I 
think it is of great importance to all of us, and I 

(liB '. 

:W ';^w 

, 1. J- 

O J"'-' 'i 

grant you. Sir, that there are many of you who 
know much more about the matter than do I . But it 
Is of Importance, Sir, because the production of red 
and white pine has dropped from 800,000,000 feet a 
year in I907 to 100,000,000 feet in 1950. That is 
Sir, a terrific drop in production indeed, and the 
solution lies partially with the people of this 
province for it is their property and they should 
assist in looking after it. It also lies in pro- 
tecting the forests from fires and insects and 
protecting the small trees until they are ripe for 
cutting. But, Sir, unless strong and vigorous steps 
are taken and supervised by the Minister of Lands 
and Forests (Mr. Scott), I think it highly possible 
that this province will chop its way out of the 
red and white pine market in the province of 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have said what I 
have said on two particular topics because they are 
of importance and of interest to me . I could have 
said things on other topics and perhaps on another 
occasion I may have the pleasure but I have said this. 
Sir, because I most sincerely feel that this 
government-, unlike most governments, is a prophet 
which is honoured not only in its own country but 
here in its own House. 

MR. W. E. BRANDON (York West): I move the 
adjournment of the debate on the ^eech from the 
Throne . 

Motion agreed to. 


HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister: Mr. 
Deputy Speaker, I move the adjournment of the 
House. We will continue with the debate on the 
address in repl;y to the speech from the Throne 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 5.35 p.m. 



of tlje 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XIV 

Tuesday, March 11, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Building! 






of the 

THURSDi.Y, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq. 

Hon. (Rev.) M. G. DAVIES, Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, Farch 11th, 1952. 

The House having met. 

3 o'clock p.m. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I would like to inform you, and the hon. members of 
this House, that waiting outside is the Governor of 
the State of Michigan, the Hon. G. Mennen Williams. 

Before we proceed with the routine and form- 
alities of the day, I would ask your indulgence and 
your permission to have Governor Williams come into 


the Chamber and address the hon. members of the House, 
and to that end, I should like the Hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Mr, Oliver) to accompany me outside to 
meet Governor Williams, and escort him into the 

Following his entry into the Chamber, there 
will be an introduction of His Excellency, and his 
remarks, and an expression of thanks by the Hon, Leader 
of the Opposition. 

SOl^ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 

Governor Williams was pleased to enter the 
Chamber; all hon. members standing, 

IE. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, it 
is indeed a pleasure to welcome to this Chamber a 
distinguished American, the Hon. G. Mennen Williams, 
Governor of our neighbouring State of Michigan, I 
notice in the Chamber to-day the Stars and Stripes are 
flying, in addition to our own flag. In my recollection, 
this is but the second occasion upon which that has 
happened. Some years ago we had in this Chamber the 
Hon. Wendell Willkie, and that was the first occasion 
I recall upon which the flag of the United States was 
displayed in this Chamber. Later, as I recall, we had 
another distinguished American, Senator Claude Pepper, 




who also addressed this Assembly, 

It is a pleasure to welcome the Governor and 
his wife to Ontario. While this is their first 
official visit to Ontario, they are by no means 
strangers to this Province, In many ways, many of 
us can almost claim Detroit as one of our cities. 
In order that His Excellency may feel more at home, 
may I say that there are a considerable number of 
the residents of our Province who support the Detroit 
Red Wingg. Indeed, I imagine there are a number of 
the hon. members of this Assembly who support the 
Detroit Red Wings, as their own. 

!'7e welcome Governor Williams here as a friend 
and neighbour, as a friend, because he is a friend. 
As I say, he almost belongs to us in the Province of 
Ontario. We welcome the Governor of the State of 
Michigan as a neighbour, because Michigan has really 
grown up with us, I might remind His Excellency that 
I think the present City of Detroit, and perhaps the 
State of Michigan, could claim to originate with one 
of the great French race, by the name of Nicolet, As 
His Excellency knows, to discover Michigan, I^icolet 
had to come through Ontario, and many of the first 


explorers, such as LaSalle and Cadillac went through 
the great waterways of Ontario to discover what has 
since become the State of Michigan, and afterwards, the 
Great American West, 

We have grown up during these years together. 
Not only was Michigan really discovered by the 
voyageurs who came through Ontario on their voyages 
to the great west, but historically we have grown up 
together, I think Ontario and Michigan can trace 
their modern history back to the days of the early 
explorers, to the days of Pontiac, which I think was 
around I763, and it was in those days that Detroit, 
which was then a British outpost, was defended by 
the British troops of the day. As I recall, it was 
General Isaac Brock who was the defender of that place. 

Later on, when we assumed some of the status 
we have to-day, when this Assembly was first meeting 
on the banks of the Niagara River in 1792, the State 
of Michigan was beginning to take form, in those days 
of the very early settlers. 

It was around that time that we fell out. 
Our American cousins took their course, and we took 
ours, but in our associations, as with all young 
people who grow up together, we have not only grown 


up in association, but we have had our "spats" and 
what-not. Vie did have a "spat" something over 150 
years ago, and it was in the War of 1S12, I think, 
if my recollection is correct, that we, under General 
Brock, took Detroit back again, I may be wrong about 
that. His Excellency is a historian, and he will 
correct me if I am, but I believe at that time the 
British and Canadian troops took Detroit, 

About that time, the Americans came over 
here and took our mace, the symbol of parliamentary 
institutions, the mace which is on the table to-day, 
and which was used in that little parliament which met 
on the banks of the Niagara River in 1792, and this is 
the mace which is now housed in the museum, except for 
occasions such as this, and which remained the mace of 
the early parliaments of Upper Canada until 1812 when, 
while we were taking Detroit, our American cousins 
came to York, and took our mace. 

We gave back Detroit. That is the kind of 
people we are, but they kept our mace until 193^, 
when another great American came to Ontario, President 
Roosevelt, to open the Ivy Lea Bridge, and gave back 
to Ontario the mace which is on the table to-day. 

It is a great pleasure indeed to welcome the 


Governor and his wife here for themselves; not because 
they are the heads of a great American State and a 
great neighbour, which has grown up with us over the 
years, but because of themselves, and I am sure this 
House will feel something of the warmth of the person- 
ality of this great American whom we are going to call 
upon to address us. 

Perhaps His Excellency does not- know that I 
have here a program which was used in connection with 
his birthday, and from it I notice that he is a very 
young man indeed. In it there is something about his 
wife which is, after all, the most important part of 
Governors or all men in public life, including Premiers, 

I was interested in reading her record of 
public service, I will not give the hon. members of 
the House all the details of her services, other than 
to give one or two examples. She served as a volunteer 
one year at the Children's Aid Society in Detroit; she 
served for one year as a volunteer at the Michigan 
Children's Aid, and is a woman of great attachment to 
the people, and one who is interested in the welfare 
of people. 

His Excellency has had a distinguished career 
in many ways,. and perhaps I might Just refer to his 
war service. He served as a member of the Navy of 

;.:ll ■ 

i/t- V j-C 


the United States on ships bearing such great names as 
"Essex", "Bunker Hill", "Hornet" and "Yorkton" . During 
his war service, he received ten battle stars, the 
Legion of Merit, and three presidential citations — 
a great American, indeed, 

YiSiY I now refer to what his own people say- 
about him — the measure of a man. 

Born into a family of secure circumstances, 
given all the advantages of a fine legal education, 
G. Mennen Williams could have lived a life of ease, 
seeking only personal wealth and comfort. Instead, he 
has chosen to carry only the standard of American 
democratic ideals along the important path of public 
life. In G. Mennen Williams, the ideals of Jefferson, 
Jackson, Lincoln and the Roosevelts have found an 
authentic spokesman. Through him has been found a 
practical application to the problems of America to- 
day. That is what his own people say about him, 

I consider it a great honour and privilege 

to be permitted to introduce to this Assembly His 

Excellency, Governor G. Mennen Williams, of the State 
of Michigan, and ask him to address this Assembly. 

SOl^ffi HON, IffililBERS: Hear, hear. 


(Governor of the State of Michigan) : Mr. Speaker, Mr, 
Prime Minister, members of the Assembly, and friends: 

The people of 1-ichigan are indeed highly- 
honoured by this unique opportunity for their chief 
executive to address the chosen representatives of 
the people of Ontario, and I personally am deeply 
appreciative of the personal honour you have done me 
by inviting me to address this august assembly, one 
of the great parliamentary bodies of the western world. 
But I consider this occasion much less a personal honour 
than an opportunity to bring to you the greetings and 
best wishes of six million of your friends and neigh- 
bours, for vrhom I speak. 

You know, when the Prime Minister spoke about 
so many of the members supporting our Red Winge, I 
could not help but wonder v/here hockey in the United 
States would be without the many players we have cap- 
tured from your Province and the other provinces of 
Canada, Truly you have made it possible for us to 
enjoy a stirring sport. 

The references to your early history and ours 
are much appreciated, and indeed we are highly honoured 


to see the flag of our country alongside of yours in 
this Chamber, Let me assure you that frequently, and 
in many places in our State, that juxtaposition is the 
same, and we are happy, indeed, to acknowledge the great 
friendship between our people. 

Perhaps later I may like to refer to this 
illustrious and historic mace. You know that some- 
times America is referred to as "the nation where 
people are always on the go; where we are rushing 
about". Well, all I can say is that perhaps it took 
us about 125 years to return your mace, but as I recall 
it, it took Great Britain and Canada at least a dozen 
years to return Detroit to us, after we had had our 
little fracas in those days. 

The relationship between our peoples is a very 
remarkable thing — a thing which stands as a beacon of 
hope to a world filled with hatreds and fears. It is 
a remarkable and wonderful thing that the Governor of 
one of the United States of America can come here to 
the Capital of Ontario, without diplomatic fuss or 
fanfare, and speak to you as a friend and a neighbour 
without fear of being misunderstood on either side of 
the border. 

Individually, our people speak to each other 


and work with each other as friends and neighbours 
every day in the yetr. The relationship between the 
two people has long since ceased to be thc.t of strangers 
and foreigners. Our citizens speak to each other not 
as Canadians and Americans, but as businessmen, working 
men, sportsmen, professional men, farmers — as neigh- 
bours in the ordinary course of life discussing matters 
of mutual interest, Ontario people go to Michigan and 
Michigan people come to Ontario with no sense of visiting 
a foreign land. 

On the face of this whole troubled earth, 
I doubt if there is another area where this could happen, 
and could happen so naturally that our people take it 
as a matter of course. 

Our undefended border is often cited as an 
example of the possibility of nations living together 
in peace and friendship. Except on state occasions 
such as this, we never even think or talk about that. 
But that border, without a fort or a gun on either 
side of it, from one ocean to the other, is not a 
cause, but an effect. It is not the reason for our 
amity, but the result and manifestation of our friend- 

As we see this friendship grow and become 


deeper year by year, it is easy to forget that it was 
not always so. There are monioments on both sides of 
the border to bitter military struggles between the 
armed forces of the two ri&tions. Up at Mackinac Island, 
from the windows of the summer residence of the Governors 
of Michigan, you can see, on the high bluff a frowning 
battlement under an American flag, ' Interestingly enough, 
it's a replica of a British log fort, built there orig- 
inally by a force of British and Canadians who took the 
Isle of Mackinac from United States forces. The sig- 
nificant thing about this is that this symbol of 
Canadian victory and American defeat was built by 
American hands, from plans obtained at great effort 

from the archives of the British Army, It was recon- 
structed there on that bluff at Mackinac Island as a 
memorial to the bravery of the men on both sides who 
fought over this border less than a hundred and fifty 

years ago. 

Mr, Prime Minister, like the mace, I am sure 

that that fort, originally British, but reconstructed 
by American hands, is to us a sjnnbol of friendship 
between our two nations. It certainly indicates a 
past where we have had difficulties, but it also 
equally certainly shows that in the human relations 



between us we have been able to surmount even the 
bitterness of war. To-day we certainly have reached 
the stage in our relations where our friendship is so 
deep and permanent that even our past wars have been 
drained of bitterness and we remember only the bravery 
of those who fought on both sides. To-day we in 
Michigan think of those ancient disputes in the same 
way we think of the border dispute which nearly brought 
armed conflict between Michigan and Ohio. I'/e can no 
more envision serious trouble between Michigan and 
Ontario than we can imagine renewing our argument with 

Our friendship has been tried and tested in 
the crucible of time, and peace is founded solidly on 
the mutual understanding of our peoples. That certainly 
is something unique in human history. 

How has this great thing been accomplished 
in so brief a period of history? Certainly, it is not 
due to any lack of regard for rights and liberties 
on either side of the border. Our governments have 
been as zealous of the rights and interests of their 
own people as any governments in history. The bones 
of Canadian and American men in every corner of the 


world bear testimony to that fact. What then. Is the 
key to this unparalleled achievement of neighbourliness 
and International good will? 

I think it is due to a basic agreement on 
ultimate values. On all the great questions which 
now confront mankind, we give the same answers. Our 
ancestors brought to the North American wilderness 
the Judeo-Christlan civilization of Western Europe. 
The ideals on which this civilization was based had 
been distilled by the long experience of European 
societies, over many centuries of struggle for human 
dignity and freedom. The men and women who settled 
this country had a deep belief in the Importance of 
the individual human soul, and in moral values that 
transcend material things. They believed in the doc- 
trine of unalienable rights, and that governments were 
instituted among men to protect those rights. They 
believed that government should always be close to 
the people. They believed in the capacity of common 
people to govern themselves, and in the essential 
rightness of people's judgments if the people were 
Informed and free . 

When those concepts were transplanted to the 
soil of North America, they took deeper roots and wider 
meanings . 


l"7e have learned from historians the profound 
effects, in both our countries, of the continuing open 
frontier. It was not merely that most earlier inhabi- 
tants had themselves moved out to a new frontier, in 
revolt against constraints and restrictions in older 
societies. The spirit that had moved them to face 
the risks and hardships of the wilderness was kept 
alive by beckoning opportunities as the frontier advanced. 
Incidentally, the movement of peoples went back and 
forlih across our international boundary, for, as you 
know well, many of the finest citizens of United States 
were emigrants from Canada and the reverse seems just 
as true. This free movement and communication has meant 

no loss to either, but our mutual enrichment. 

I pause, in all modesty at this time, Mr. Prime 

Minister, to say that you have pointed out so many of the 
good things of life which came to Michigan across your 
fair province, so I believe I might point out that the 
name of ''Williams", as it applies to my family, came 
in the same way. My maternal grandfather was born in 
London, England, but he is a V/elshman just the same. 
He migrated to your city of London, and later on picked 

up and moved to Detroit. 


I think that has sort of stayed in the blood, 
because, when my brother came to choose a wife, he went 
back to Windsor — or what was then Sandwich — so you 
see we are just keeping the border moving back and 

Thus, within each country and across borders, 
the continuing attraction of an open and freer life 
and of new and promising opportunities has contributed 
enormously to self-reliance, the leveling of barriers 
between human beings, and the spirit of personal free- 
dom and self-government as a jealously guarded and 
deeply felt possession of individuals. 

All this gives added meaning to the tremendous 
expansion of Canadian life that is now renewed and 
seems merely well begun. The frontiers of Canada are 
being pressed out — to the west, the north, and 
northeast. The discoveries of oil, of iron ore, of 
uranium and other minerals have come at a crucial 
time, for the world as a whole depends on the resources 
of North America as never before in history. 

But the growth and expansion of Canadian 
industry have been equally remarkable, much of it 
concentrated in this Province. You know the index 
figures for Canadian production and domestic and 


foreign trade, the soundness and strength of the 
Canadian economy, and the rising standard of living. 
No end is in sight, and there need be no end. For 
you, as for us, there are abundant resources in the 
land that we have not yet begun to exploit. 

We have resources also in ourselves; in the 
skill, training and resourcefulness of our people. 
The frontiers of North America do not lie only in the 
Northwest Territories, Labrador and Alaska. They lie 

all around us and within ourselves; in the unlimited 
possibilities of the human spirit. We need only be 
sure that through mistakes in governmental action, 
or otherwise, we do not interpose unnecessary obstruc- 
tions. We must be sure also to keep firmly in mind 
the great lessons we have learned on how we can work 
best together. 

In short, the growing strength of Canada gives 
us in the United States genuine pride and satisfaction. 
V/e look upon you not as competitors or rivals, but as 
neighbours whose strength and good fortune are intimately 
tied in with our own future. 

Not only as partners in the development of 
natural resources and a rich spiritual heritage, but 


also as comrades in arms, against 'the enemies of 
democracy, have we known each other in recent genera- 
tions. In tv;o world wars, Canadian fighting men and 
the armed forces of the United States have fought 
shoulder-to-shoulder against those who sought to 
destroy our way of life. 

The glorious history of Canada in the defense 
of human freedom is fresh in our minds. We remember 
the Canadian bayonets that stood between us and the 
German submarine bases on the Atlantic in the First 
World War, We remember how for a time Canada and 
Great Britain, virtually alone, withstood the Nazi 
fury in the Second World War, holding the bastions of 
human liberty, while the United States slowly gathered 
her great strength to aid in the ultimate victory of 
the free world. We remember Dieppe, when boys from 
Ontario first breached the walls of Hitler's Fortress 
Europe. We in Michigan recall very vividly the day 
of Dieppe, and the wave of sorrow that swept over 
our whole people as the bloody sacrifices of that 
engagement became known. The Ontario boys who died 
on the beaches and in the streets of Dieppe were not 
just soldiers of an allied power; they were our sons, 


as well as yours, and we felt their loss as keenly 
as if they had been boys from Detroit, Port Huron or 
Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. 

We remember, in short, the time which was 
bought with Canadian blood, time bought not only for 
Canada but for all of us who believe in human freedom; 
time during which the United States was able to arm; 
time without which all our potential industrial and 
military power might have been unable to aid in pre- 
venting the conquest of tlae world. 

To-day as friends, neighbours and comrades in 
arms, we stand again, for the third time, face to face 
with a gigantic threat to our way of life. The march 
of imperial Communism has brought into jeopardy every- 
thing we have built here on this continent. We face 
an enemy far more ruthless than imperial Germany, far 
more cunning than Hitler. We live in a world divided 
into two armed camps, and the solidarity of the free 
peoples of this earth is the only hope of avoiding a 
third world war. 

To-day, as never before, Canada and the United 
States must stand together or perish. The free peoples 
of the old world are exhausted and weak from a half- 
century of struggle to preserve the ideals of human 


liberty. Some are torn by internal dissension. 
Others are suffering from the exhaustion of natural 
resources, and still others have disappeared behind 
the Iron Curtain, and only the muffled cries of their 
tortured peoples can penetrate to our ears. 

But here on the North American continent we 
are strong. Together we possess the natural resources, 
the industrial capacity, the military power and the 
spiritual strength to meet this new and most terrible 
threat to human liberty. Canada and the United States, 
standing together, form the bastion about which the 
free peoples of the world can rally. And stand to- 
gether we shall I 

You know as well as I do the specific lines 
of action we need to follow if our great hopes are 
to be brought to fruition, !'7e have worked out measures 
for our common defense, over the whole vast area of the 
North American continent and specifically here near the 
center. We know that the flash of atomic bombs will 
not stop at lines on the map. The vital areas of 
Ontario and Michigan will need constant attention to 
ward off the threat of attack. We must develop to 
the full our great industrial and agricultural poten- 
tial. To me these needs add great urgency to another 

A- 20 

proposal, on which Canadians have shown much patience, 
that is the construction of the great new waterway up . 
the valley of the St. Lawrence and on into the Great 
Lakes, You know the benefits for which we can hope 
from this development, benefits for peace as well as 
wartime defense and for generations to come, I pledge 
ray continued support to this great project, in the 
fervent hope that it can provide another example of 
North American co-operation. 

But military preparedness and industrial and 
agricultural strength here will not, alone, provide 
us with the necessary strength. The techniques of 
production and democracy which have been developed 
here in North America must be spread to the whole 
world, so that all the races and peoples of mankind 
may enjoy the benefits of modem science and the 
blessings of freedom. 

The era of colonialism is past and so is 
the age of economic exploitation. But the drive of 
Communism to capture the advantage of being the 
channel through which the peoples of Asia and Africa 
learn the basic principles of modern industrial life, 
reminds us that the day of expanding and changing 
economies is far from past. If we do not meet the 


Russian challenge in this area, we must expect to see 
the peoples of Asia and Africa arrayed against us under 
the red banner. 

Surely the two great nations of the North 
American continent are capable of rising to this 
occasion and to this challenge. The two nations which, 
with Great Britain, a common ancestor, ushered in the 
atomic age, are certainly able to direct these new- 
found energies to the common task of providing hope 
for the world's underprivileged. We must co-operate 
in relieving the poverty and ignorance of the less 
fortunate. We must share in the extension and develop- 
ment of modern industrial and agricultural life, that 
great new frontier which, together with our common 
heritage of political freedom, alone offers real and . 
substantial hope for all men everywhere. 

In this great task, which is the only way to 
defeat Communism ultimately, the people of Canada 
and the people of the United States are partners and 
comrades at arms in a special way. The other nations 
of the free world are not at this time able to carry 
this burden. Some of them are undeveloped, others once 
strong are weak and bled white. Others are torn by 
internal dissension, as Communism spreads its poisons 


through the vitals of their society. Still others 
are already lost behind the Iron Curtain. 

Only here in North America, rooted in the 
good earth of the new world, is there unquestioned 
strength, the industrial and agricultural potential, 
the military power, and the abiding faith in the 
future, which mankind needs to remain free. Here, 
with one foot in the United States and the other in 
Canada, stands an Atlas of human liberty, capable of 
supporting the future of the world on his shoulders. 
And here, alone, does such strength now exist. 

Let us mobilize that strength. Let us go 
forward shoulder to shoulder, as we have gone forward 
together in the past, nurtured in common traditions 
and beliefs, secure in our mutual comradeship, con- 
fident of our mutual destiny, as strong brothers guarding 
together their neighbouring homes. 

Let us send forth to every corner of the 
world the strong hope of our mutual confidence that 
peace will be preserved, that freedom will live, 
and that aggressors will ultimately be destroyed by 
the determination of all people everywhere to share 
the benefits of liberty. 

That is the historic role in my mind, which 





Providence has assigned the peoples of the United 
States and Canada in this great crisis, !'/e of Michigan 
join with you in a mutual determination to play this 
role with hope and courage. Because you are our friends, 
our neighbours and our comrades in arms, we join with 
you in applauding and encouraging every forward step 
you make toward a greater and mightier Canada, 

'".7ith glowing hearts we see thee rise 
The true North, strong and free." 

Thank you very much. 

SOME HON, MMBERS: Hear, hear. 

(Take "B" follows) 


MR. F. R. OLIVTLH (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr, Speaker, it is at once a pleasure and a privilege 
to thank His Excellency for the fine and excellent speech 
he- has delivered to us this afternoon. This speech 
revealed to us as nothing else could, the breadth of 
knowled&e and the greatness of the speaker himself. Vie 
have had the opportunity of knov;ing something of the v/ork 
that our honoured guest this afternoon has done in his 
own State of Michigan and for the people of that State; 
v/e are aware of our friends' thinking on public questions 
of national and international scope and importance. Our 
friend this afternoon has substantiated our beliefs in 
regards to these things that he holds supreme in the 
shape of things to come. Above all, I think we should 
say this afternoon that we know His Excellency in this 
way, we know and v/e appreciate the friendship that he has 
always had for Ontario and for the people of Ontario. 

His Excellency will recall, I am sure, that 
last Fall, in the city of V'/indsor, he had the opportunity, 
and I think he v/ould treat it as a rare opportunity, of 
meeting our Gracious Q,ueen and her Consort, the Duke 
of Edinbcrough. I know that he would be impressed on 
that occasion as we, throughout this province and through- 
out this country, have been impressed by their visit and 
by our determination to v^rork with our Gracious Queen 


in building stronger still the battleraent of the British 
Commonv/ealth of Nations. It is said on the occasion 
that our guest met the Queen and her Consort last Fall, 
that he presented to the Duke of Edinborough a certain 
piece of v/eering apparel with which the Duke was very • 
much impressed. His Excellency, at that time, told the 
Duke that the v/earing of this particular piece of 
apparel had won for him many elections in the State of 
Michigan and he expressed the hope that the wearing of 
this bow-tie by the Duke of Edinborough would serve him 
well in that particular field. It may be that the Duke 
of Edinborough has not got to go through the turmoil 
of elections, but I am sure the gift was nonetheless 
sincere on that account. 

It is because of these things, llir. Speaker, 
that our virelcome to our guest this afternoon is the 
warmer and the more sincere. His Excellency's visit is 
a further indication, if any further indication is 
needed, of the friendship that exists betv/een our 
province and his state, and our country and his 
country. There was a time, and it v/as mentioned this 
afternoon, when the boundary line between these two 
countries had forts with warlike intentions, there 
were battlements that intended to speak hostility and 
death to one another on each side of the border. These 


have been done av/ay with as the years have gone, and 
in their place we have built a bigger and stronger fort, a fort 
h fort built on the foundations of peace, the foundation 
of understanding and of fellowship, add off knowledge 
one of the other, so that both our people should rise 
above the petty and small things to reach the heights 
of v/hat would be the ambition of us all to solve the 
problems of the ordinary person, and to lift his stand- 
ard of living and his glimpse of life to something higher 
than it is at the present time. 

Your visit to us today, then, is a further cementp 
ing of the intentions of these two great countries, as we 
look out at the world picture of todaj', Vie hope you 
will enjoy your visit with us, and that you do code back 
again quite soon. 

HON. im. FROST. (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
may I have your permissiion, accompanied by the hon. 
Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) to escort His Ex- 
cellency from the Chamber? 

I do not know whether this is in order, but since the hon. 
Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) mentioned that 1 had 
the pleasure of presenting to the Duke of Edinborough, a sym- 
bol of office, which, v/hile not as important as the Mace, 
at least is one which has served me well, I am in a somewhat 


difficult position in that I do not want to disturb the 
balance of powder in Ontario. If I may be permitted, I 
should like to preserit to both the hon. Prime Iviinister 
(Mr. Frost) and the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. 
Oliver) these symbols v.ihich are cf little intrinsic 
value, but since both the Duke of Edinborough and the 
President of the United States have them, I think it is 
quite in order to make the presentation here. 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
S eaker, may I thank His E:;cellency for the bow-tie? 
I am going to very carefully preserve my tie for future 
occasions and my one hope is that the hon. Leader of 
the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) loses his. 

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition) : 
Mr, Speaker, otiy I say that I do value this giffE We 
have in the past, if you know our political histrry 
intimately, some difficulty, and I .am now hoping and I 
trust, it is not a false hope that this will bring us 
out of the difficulty and will do for us v/hat it has 
done so many times for yourself. 

His Excellency was pleased to retire. 


MR. SPEAKER: Presehtlng petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by committees. 

MR. G. W. PARRY (Kent West): Mr. Speaker, I 
beg leave to submit the report of the standing committee 
on Standing Orders , 

THE CLERK ASSISTANT:- Mr. Parry, from the 
Standing Committee on Standing Orders presents the 
following as its Third and Final Report: 

Your Committee has carefully considered the 
following L Petitions and finds the Notices as pub- 
lished in each case sufficient. 

Petition of the Corporation of the Town of 
Orillia, praying that an Act may pass authorizing the 
Corporation to enter into an agreement with The Hydro- 
Electric Power Commission of Ontario for the purchase 
of power. 

Petition of the Corporation of the 
Township of Toronto, praying that an Act may pass 
establishing a Board of Education for the Township, 
and for other purposes. 

Petition of the Grand Lodge of Ontario of 
the Independent Order of Oddfellows, praying that an 
Act may pass authorizing the f-oorporation to acquire 
shares of The Independent Order of Oddfellows Hall 
Association of Toronto. 

:y :■'(::■ 


Petition of the corporation of the Township 
of Pelee, praying that an Act may pass authorizing the 
Corporation to expend up to $10,000.00 in any year from 
•the revenue received from non-resident hunting licenses 
on drainage works, etc. 

Petition of the Corporation of the City of 
London, praying that an Act may pass authorizing the 
payment of annuities to employees retiring with less 
than twenty years^ service, and for other purposes. 

All of which is respectfully submitted. 

Motion agreed to. 

MR. W. M. NICKLE (Kingston) : Mr. Speaker, I 
beg leave to submit the second report of the Standing 
Committee on Miscellaneous Private BiUs. 

THE CLERK ASSISTANT: Mr. Nickle from the 
Standing Committee on Miscellaneous Private Bills, 
presents the following as its Second Report: 

Your Committee begs to report the following 

Bills without amendment: 

Bill No. 3 - An Act respecting the City of 

Bill No. 5 - An Act respecting the City of 
Sault Ste. Marie. 

Bill No. 8 - An Act respecting J. L. Thompson 
Supply Limited. 

Bill No. 27 - An Act respecting the Town of 
Barrie . 

Your Committee begs to report the following 

Bill with certain amendments:- 


Bill No. 6 - An Act respecting the Town of 
TiiTiruins Separate School Board. 

Your Comraittee would recommend that the fees 
less the penalties and the actual cost of printing be 
remitted on Bill No. 6, An Act respecting the Town of 
Timmins Separate School Board. 

All of which is respectfully submitted. 

Motion agreed to. 

(Take C follows) 


MR. SPEAKER: Motions. 

Introduction of Bills, 


Mr. S. L. HALL (Halton) , moves first reading of Bill 
intituled "An Act respecting the Township of Toronto". 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill» 

MR. G. 0. WARDROPE (Port Arthur), moires first 
reading of Bill intituled "An Act respecting the Grand Ledge 
of Ontario of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows", 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 


MR. J. P. ROB/lRTS (London) moves first reading csff 
Bill intituled "An i'>.ct respecting the City of" London". 
Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 


MR. J. D. McPHEE (Simcoo-East ) moves first read- 
ing of Bill, intituled "An Act respecting the Town of 

Motion agreed to; first reading of thn Bill 



MR. W. IviURDOCH (Essex South) moves- first reading 
of Bill intituled"Aii Act respecting the Township of 

Motion r.greed to; fifst reading of the Bill. 

Hon. G. A. T/VELSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr, 
Speaker, I beg leave to present to the House the fol- 

1, EightE enth annual report of the Department 
of Municipal Affairs, for the year ended December 

31, 1951. 

2. The Report of the hon. Minister of Educa- 
tion, for the calendar year, 1951. 

3. The annual ra- ort of the Teachers' Super- 
annuation Commission, for the year ended October 31, 1951. 

4, The annual report of the Ontario College 
of Arts for the fiscal year ended May 31, 1951. 

MR. SPE/iKER: Orders of the day. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: First order; Resumxing the 
adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendm.ent to 
the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the 
honourable, the Lieutenant-Governor, at the opening 
of the session, Mr. Frost. 



MR. W. E. BRANDON (York West): Mr. Speaker, 
it gives me a great deal of pleasure this afternoon 
to have the opportunity of extending to you, sir, 
along with those who have already previously addressed 
this House, my sincere congratulations to you, sir. 
In the attainment of your office and to realize 
that you have the whole-hearted support of every 
member of this House. 

The Speech from the Throne is one which 
usually is regarded as forecasting and indicating 
in a positive manner the thoughts which the 
Government of the day has in regard to matters of 
government and in the Speech which we have listen- 
ed to some few days ago we have found that there 
have been many matters of general public interest 
to all of us here. 

One of the speakers mentioned yesterday 
that there was no community which was more im- 
portant to any member of this House than his own 
and I believe that we can each and everyone 
heartily concur in that statement. It has also 
been suggested that each and every member of this 
House is likewise interested in all of the com- 
munities in this great province of Ontario which 
we find represented here and any legislation which 
may be brought down will be generally regarded 
as being for the benefit of each and every per- 
son who resides in this great and grand old 
province of Ontario. 

•:'.;:i ■l1^ 


'■> . i ^ cJ . 


Some time ago one of the hon. members of the 
Opposition made reference to the fact that the 
Conservative Government or the Government in power 
was living in a glass house and he queried the fact 
as to whether or not we realized that we were living 
in a glass house. There is no doubt in my mind 
but that the Government of the day has been living 
in a glass house ever since 19^3 with the net re- 
sult that progressive and constructive legisla- 
tion has been enacted since that time and, in 
addition, the electors back in November of 1951 
could see through the walls of that glass house 
and came back in restoring the Government of the 
day and patting them on the back for the Job 
which they had done prior to that occasion. 

We all realize that in connection with 
matters of government there are three levels. 
In fact, I am going to suggest a fourth level and 
one which might not be generally regarded as being 
a level of government, but I can assure you it is the 
pla«e where we all get our start and that is right 
in our own home. That is where government and 
discipline begin, and if- we find that a child has 
had a good and proper upbringing, he Is able to 
tolerate the views of others, to appreciate the 
circumstances and the surroundings in which he 
lives and he makes of himself a better citizen 
and better equipped to associate himself with his 
fellows. Just as one steps forward from the 


threshold of the family into that of com- 
munity life, we find that the individual finding 
himself in a community, next becomes associated in 
what we call municipal life, and it is in regard 
to the status of municipal life that I wish to 
address my remarks this afternoon at a little 
length . 

Dealing with the matter of municipal life, 
many of us here have had the privilege and the 
opportunity of serving on a local or a municipal 
council and there we have found one thing which is 
paramount, namely, that the local municipal council 
is the body which is closest to the people -- the 
body to which the average individual resident turns 
in the event of a problem arising affecting himself 
or his fellows and, consequently, we find an 
individual who has had the opportunity of serving 
for some time on a municipal council perhaps, maj/ 
have had a broader experience than one who may not 
have had that privilege. 

Then as we step forward from the local 
municipal council into the county council, we find 
that there has again been a broader opportunity 
afforded the Indivlduali because no longer are his 
views limited to those of himself or to those in 
his own local community, but they are again broaden- 
ed so as to take into consideration those of the 
other municipalities in the larger municipality of 
the county. 


When one becomes associated with a 
body such as this In a provincial legislature we 
find that once again the horizon of one's self 
is broadened considerably and so, as I suggest 
to you, it is a great privilege for each and every 
member of this House to have the opportunity of 
serving his local constituency in the capacity 
of being a member of the Provincial Legislature, 

Democracy is something of which we are 
all very, very proud, and the one thing which I 
am sure each and everyone of us will remember from 
years gone by is the definition of democracy which 
we learned, namely, that it is government of the 
people, for the people and by the people, and that 
is something, as I say, of which we are very, very 

The constituency which I have the honour 
to represent, being York West, is a constituency 
which is quite broad in its aspect consisting of. 
rural and urban and industrial and residential 
areas, and we all know as representatives of local 
constituencies that each and every one of those 
particular types which I havt mentioned. Involve 
and present problems which are particular in great 
measure to themselves. One of the constituent 
municipalities in the riding of York West is the 
Township of Etobicoke which has had a very great 
and expansive industrial development in the past 
two and a half years. As a matter of fact, it 


has advanced into second place in industrial 
expansion among municipalities in the Province of 
Ontario, and great has been the number of industries 
which have come into that township alone. The 
Township of Scarborough located on the eastern limits 
of the City of Toronto is one which has taken first 
place in regard to industrial development but, as 
I have indicated to you, each and every one of these 
expansions has brought with it its problems. 

The industrial development is one which you 
and I, and each and every one of our constituents, 
is looking for in his own constituency because we 
have found that over the years industrial develop- 
ment is something which has been of great and para- 
mount importance in the development of our com- 
munities across this province and Indeed across 
this Dominion. 

Industry has begun to play a very sub- 
stantial part in the carrying on of our community 
life and the extending of our various matters of 
social life and culture in our various communities, 
and we have found, for example, that in the past 
there have been municipalities that have endeavoured 
to refrain from having industry come within their 
borders, but which in the long run have found that 
it has been very desirable that industry should be 
brought within their borders to assist in carrying 
out the great municipal programmes which the 
municipalities have been called upon to bear. 


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l-tc;. v'j J ;■ ; ,1 ■ , : .■ ■, 


In the first place, I would like to deal 
with the matter of highways. Highway development 
is one which has been very prominent in the life 
and work of this Province of Ontario, and the Govern- 
ment of the day has made great strides in the matter 
of highway development and in the development of 
better highways throughout the whole of the pro- 
vince. Sometimes there has been criticism direct- 
ed at the payment and charge of 11-cents gasoline 
tax but let me remind you of the fact that in this 
Province of Ontario) although we do pay an 11-cent 
gasoline tax, the tax which is levied against 
motor vehicles, coupled with the ordinary licence 
fee, is the lowest of any province in the Dominion 
of Canada. 

In so far as the matter of highway develop- 
ment is concerned, when one pays 11 cents on 
gasoline, which goes into the form of government 
tax, and when one realizes that that money is being 
used for the development of a highway system which 
today is coming close to second to none, I am sure 
that we are very proud of the development of the 
highway system in the Province of Ontario. 

Back in 1937 we saw the development of 
a four-lane highway from the City of Toronto through 
to Niagara Palls in the form of the Queen Elizabeth 
Highway, and that highway today carries many, many 
tons of freight traffic but it also carries thousands 
of motor vehicles between Buffalo and Toronto and 


Intermediate points. 

We have also been advised that the 
development of the new highway between the City of 
Toronto and Barrle is another development which is 
going to take place this year. Part of that high- 
way is already open and it is something of which 
we can all be very proud. But may I point this 
out to you, that it is the purpose of the Govern- 
ment of the day -- and it is Indeed being carried 
into practice — that ' Improving existing high- 
ways, building better roads* and opening up new 
highways will have a good effect upon the people 
of this province and the economy of this province. 

Years ago this country was dependent 
entirely upon oi-cart for openin-g up, the blazing 
of very minor trails followed by the introduction 
of the steam railway, and that remained practically 
so until approximately thirty years ago, and then 
we found our highway system beginning to develop. 
Did you know you do not have to go very far out- 
side the City of Toronto to see the first paved 
highway which was erected in the province of 
Ontario? It is covered up in many parts with 
debris and cinders at the present time, but if 
some of the hon. members of the House would like 
to see some of that highway, all you have to do 
is to take one of the streetcars that go out to 
Sunnyside on the west limit of the city, and there 
you will see the highway which was first paved and 



ran from parkside Drive out to the Humber River 
and ran through the south limit of the Village of 
Swansea, where I happen to reside. That highway 
is still existent but, as I say, not in actual use. 

Now, in so far as the matter of money being 
spent in highway development is concerned, may I 
remind you of the fact that last year the Government 
of the day spent approximately $90 million and the 
potential for the current year is approximately 
$104 million, as we have been advised by the 
Acting Minister of Highways. Highway development 
is something which each and every one of us who 
owns motor cars is interested in, and I am sure that 
we can depend upon a progressive policy in so far 
as highway construction is concerned. 

In the matter of health, we have found that 
there has been a general development of construc- 
tive plans for the placing of health units across 
the Province of Ontario, and last year there were 
twenty-six of these health units which were set 
up and in operation , as against when the present 
Government of the day came into power a few years 

The health unit, as undoubtedly many of 
you know, consists of a unification of health 
services whereby individual municipalities may 
couple their efforts and Join in the creation of 
a single health expenditure and operation in respect 


of their joint municipal operations. 

The other day we had occasion to discuss 
in this House one of the most historical pieces 
of legislation which has been discussed here for 
some time and I was very pleased to learn, as I 
pointed out at that time, that the hon. members of 
this House were entirely in accord with the project, 
namely the development of the St. Lawrence seaway 
and the harnessing of the waters of the St. 
Lawrence for hydro purposes. Hydro has played 
a very prominent part in the development of the 
Province of Ontario and, through the efforts of the 
Government today and in past years, in now practical- 
ly available to all home owners throughout the 
province, and in areas where it is not available It 
is being extended in great measure in our rural 

Another matter which has proved of great 
interest to each and everyone of us is the matter 
of housing. In fact, I believe that each and 
every member who has spoken so far on the Throne 
Debate has spoken on the matter of housing. May 
I take you back with me a few years to recall Just 
what the situation was and is, and how it has 
developed Insofar as the housing situation of 
today is concerned? Back in 1939, which was the year 
in which World War II was declared, we found that 
there was not such a thing as a housing shortage. 
Rather, on the contrary, vacant houses, vacant 

' 1 '' ^' ■ ' 

;;:. '.:; 

J. C' 

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■ < ■ :; 




store premises and Indeed vacant factory build- 
ings were found in great meas ire throughout the 
City of Toronto and in other large contres 
of this province of Ontario and elsewhere. With 
the coming of World War II naturally we found that 
the great war industries began to develop and 
with the development of those war industries 
came the demand and the requirement for additional 
housing. But it was not until the 11th of October, 
1941, that there was what could be regarded as 
an acute shortage of housing or a shortage of housing 
even developing, for that was the day when rentals 
became fixed pursuant to federal government order, 
dated October 11th, 194l, and you will recall that 
rentals were frozen as of that day and that rental 
regulations ultimately came into existence. 

The matter of the freezing of rentals, 
however, did not solve the problem of housing, 
for there were such places as Ajax, located a few 
miles east of Toronto, where a war industry became 
located and where it became necessary to estab- 
lish housing units, and at that time we found that 
the federal government came along and desired to 
inaugurate what they called wartime housing and 
wartime housing lonits were established in certain 
of the municipalities where war industries were 
located. Indeed we found a great municipal 
problem arising at that time because when war- 
time housing was first brought about and came 


Into existence there was no suggestion that the 
municipalities who were going to be called upon to 
service those units of housing v/ould be 
compensated In any way. 

It was not until 1943 and the beginning of 
1944 when, after considerable objection was voiced 
to the federal authority, that the federal authority 
came through with the fabulous sum of $26 for a 
four-room house and $29 for a five -room house to 
the local municipalities that were called upon to 
service those housing units. The amount of con- 
tribution by the federal authority did not come 
anywhere near providing the amount of moneys re- 
quired to provide even the cost of education ' 
policing or fire protection and many other- 
municipal services which they were called upon to 
bear In the case of AJax, which I mentioned a 
moment ago, the Township of Pickering which, prior 
to that time in the main was rural in Its character, 
found Itself with a small urban centre on Its hands 
and was called upon to provide for schools to teach 
the children who had come to live In these wartime 
housing units and multiple were the problems which 
became foisted upon the municipality of the Town- 
ship of Pickering. 

Many other municipalities found themselves 
in similar positions dealing with the matter of 
housing. Today, however, we find a different 
situation. We find a situation has developed 


whereby the federal and the provincial governments 
have come through and are anxious to help the 
municipalities erect houses and take care of the 
housing situation in their respective municipalities. 

As has been suggested by the Prime Minister 
on previous occasions, the federal government 
today is prepared to come through with seventy- 
five per cent of the cost, the provincial govern- 
ment 172 pe^ cent of the cost, and the municipali- 
ties are asked to contribute T? per cent of the 
cost in order that a housing development may 
occur in municipalities desiring it. 

The matter of housing, however, is not just 
simply a case of erection of homes. From a 
municipal standpoint those homes have to be ser- 
viced, they have to be provided with sewage dis- 
posal, water supply, police protection, fire pro- 
tection, garbage disposal and so forth. Those are 
all services which are cast upon the doorstep — 
and rightly so — of the local municipality, but 
when one comes to consider the fact that where a 
farmls subdivided, and where previously one family 
resided, namely the farmer and his family, on the 
subdivision of that farm, we find that there may be 
hundreds of families residing on subdivided lots 
and in homes erected on those lots and we find that 
the matter of cost of providing water supply, sewage 
disposal, highway development and many of these other 
services are things which are real problems to the 



local mxmlcipal council in which these subdivisions 
are located. Consequently, there have been re- 
quests -.- indeed more than requests -- there 
have been requirements, made by certain municipal 
councils, whereby subdividers have been called upon 
to provide a sum of money and certain areas of 
land, the money to provide for the institution of 
these services, which I have mentioned, and the areas 
of land required to provide a park area within the 
subdivided limits or within the subdivision itself 
and also to provide land area for the erection of 

(Take "D" follows) 


The erection of schools and the subject of education 
are very important points and considerations to each 
and every member of a municipal council, 

I am sure that every hon. member here has 
taken time off — I am sure I have — to look at our 
tax bills in the years gone by, or perhaps even in the 
current year, and you will find that the cost of educa- 
tion is approximately the equivalent of one-half of the 
local municipal tax bill. There may be municipalities 
where the cost of education is less than fifty percent, 
but, on the average, you will find that the cost of 
education in a local municipality takes up approxi- 
mately one-half of the local municipal expenditures. 
Consequently, as I have stated, it does create a great 

problem to the members of the local municipal councils. 
Why? One immediately say© that the council of a local 
municipality has nothing to do with providing education 
for the pupils within that municipality, because that 
is taken care of, either by a school board or a board 
of education, which has full and complete authority 
insofar as education is concerned. That is quite true. 
But where does the money come from which ultimately 
finds its way into the hands of the board of education 
or the school board of any given municipality? Its 


needs must be taken into consideration by the municipal 
council, in the fixing of the levy, in the fixing of 
the cost of education, and in the fixing of the mill 
rate of the municipality as a whole. 

It is the duty of the municipal council, as 
we know it, to provide funds as requested by the school 
board or the board of education of a municipality, and 
great have been the increases, particularly in the last 
two or three years, in the way of demands upon local 
municipal councils by school boards and boards of 
education throughout all of Ontario. Sometimes I 
wonder where the peak is going to be, because, indeed, 
we do find that it does present a great problem to 
the municipal councils which are trying to keep their 
mill rates down to a low level, or at least to a con- 
sistent level, and that indeed creates a problem by 
the repeated annual demands made upon them by way of 
increased budgets for education and other municipal 

The reason I have chosen the matter of educa- 
tion by way of costs, and other increases, is particularly 
on account of the fact that in the past two or three years 
increases which have gone to the boards of education, and 
the demands which have been made by boards of education 
upon municipal councils, have been greater than the demani s 


which have been made by councils for improving their 
own services. And what has been the experience of 
the local municipal councils? When a school board 
brings in its budget, there possibly is a conference 
held between the council and the board, to see if the 
board cannot reduce its budget, but if the board re- 
mains adamant, then the council has to sit down with 
the school board's budget, and try to see where they 
can curtail their efforts, insofar as municipal 
improvements are concerned. The net result of such 
a condition has been that only the most essential and 
requiring public works have been performed in the 
municipality, and there has developed, over the past 
few years, a backlog of municipal services which are 
some day going to be called upon to be performed. How 
long the dam is going to be able to hold out against the 
backlog of these municipal services, I do not know. If 
the dam should break, and it should become necessary to 
call upon the ratepayers of the municipalities to provide 
for some of these backlog services, one cannot forecast 
with any degree of certainty where the mill rate of the 
municipality is going to go. 

What is t he solution? The solution I have 
to suggest is this: that insofar as the boards of 


education are concerned, I think there should be 
representation of the municipal councils on those 
boards, or there should be some representation by 
way of appeal by a municipal council against the 
budget of the school boards, so that the miinicipal 
council, which is the body having to raise these 
taxes, will be in a position where they will be able 
to appeal the school board's budgets, and at the same 
time, keep within the confines of a reasonable tax 
rate to be paid by the ratepayers of these munici- 

(Page D-5 follows) 


There is another observation I want to make 
in regard to the matter of education. The Government 
of to-dey has gone to great lengths, and has made great 
strides in endeavouring to assist the local municipalities 
provide for the costs of education v/hich have accumulated 
from year to year, by v^ray of increased grants. 

Back in 1944, the provincial grants of this 
province to municipalities for educational purposes 
was approximately eight million dollars; in the year 
1951, the grants by the government of the day, to 
municipalities, for taking care of educational purposes, 
had increased to forty-seven million dollars, or 
approximately six times those of 1944. So you v/ill 
see the provincial governments are doing a grand job 
as far as providing' ad'" itional grants are concerned. 
But still, with all these increased grants, the situations 
locally have not been taken care of. If one can recall 
a' few years ago, when it \'\fas suggested that the 
Provincial government was going to take care of fifty 
percent of the cost of education, the School Boards 
throughout the municipalities of the province of 
Ontario seemed to regard the fact that .they were 
getting a "hand-out" of additional funds, and they 
immediately sought ways and means to spend those 
additional funds. The net result was, of the 



governniental increases, the ratepayers in the 
municipalities saw very little or nothing of those 

What I have to suggest v/ith regard to the 
cost of education is this; education, to ray way of 
thinking, is just as much a national picture, as it is 
a provincial picture, or a municipal picture. We all 
realize that under the British-North America Act, 
education is one of those problems and fields v/hich 
the Provincial Government is called upon to administer. 
To-day -- in 1952 — I suggest we have gone a long way, 
by wdy of progress, culturally, individually, provincially , 
and municipally. The Ontario of 1952 is not composed 
of the same municipalities which were existent at the 
time of the passing of the British North America Act, 

Wo need to bring the Act up to date, and 
the way in which the Act can be, and should be, brought 
up to date, is by having the three levels of government 
participate in the costs of education. It is just as 
much a Federal responsibility to provide education 
for the youth of this country, as it is to educate 
them, or to train them for military service, or to 
see that they will have a good health program, across 
this fair Dominion, There are certain things which 
you and I are very anxious to see provided to the youth 
of this country. One is good health. Another is 


education. Another is a. spirit of toleration and 
responsibility. And if, through a process of progress- 
ive education, which could be nurtured, through the 
joint financial co-operative assistance of the three 
levels of government, there is no doubt th^;t tho 
boy vvho lives in the northern section of Alberta would 
have the same privileges of education as the boy who 
lives v/ithin the confines of a large urban centre 
such as the city of Toronto, 

(Take E follows) 


A few years ago it was a very common 
practice and a very common thing to hear someone say 
that when they acquired their entrance examination 
they were going to stop school, their educational 
career was at an end. The toy or the girl who was 
raised on the farm may not have had the same privilege 
of attending high school in the local town or in the 
city a fG7J miles away; today that has gone by the hoard. 
The present Administration a i'ev years ago saw to it 
that the hulk of the Province of Ontario was divided 
into high school districts, and the purpose of having 
counties divided into high school districts was so that 
the boy or the girl in the rural centre would have the 
same opportunity of secondary and high school 'and 
vocatiG?ial education as the boy or the girl who was 
reared in the urban centre. So today we find that bus 
transportation is considered as part of the cost of 
education for Boards of Education where high school 
district Boards function. The net result has been to 
achieve the golden opportunity for the boy or girl in 
rural Ontario as for the boy or girl reared in the 
urban municipalities. 

Therefore, as I suggest to ycu, going 
beyond the confines of the Province of Ontario 
across this Dominion of Canada, the boy or girl 
who is reared in rural countr;y should have the 


same opportionlty from an educational standpoint 
as any boy or girl who lives in an urban centre, 
through from Newfoundland to British Columbia. 

Dealing now with the matter of municipali- 
ties, we find that last year the present Adminis- 
tration, with a view to relieving some of the 
great tax responsibility which is now upon the 
shoulders of municipalities appoiutod a Provincial^ 
Municipal Committee for the purpose of ascertaining 
and '. defining if possible the financial respon- 
sibility as it does lie and as perhaps it should 
lie between the province and the local munici- 
pality. . . 

Those of us who have had mimic ipal ex- 
perience readily realize the fact that municipal- 
ities have in the past been called upon to bear a 
very substantial portion of the costs of services 
, which were not generally or normally within the 
bracket of what one could honestly say was a 
municipal service. I do not purport or intend 
to go into detail in regard to those services but, 
as I mentioned earlier, I do suggest that such 
things as fire protection, police protection, sewage 
disposal and water supply, lighting and so forth 
are primarily municipal responsibilities, but on 
the other hand when we come to consider the matter 
of providing moneys for hospitalization, for 
indigent patients, for welfare services, chil- 
dren's aid societies and relief and unemployment -- 


Insurance, I was going to say, but I say unem- 
ployment relief — when it comes to a matter of 
providing unemployed employables with the where- 
withal to live, those to my way of thinking are 
not properly within the ambit of responsibility 
of a local municipal government, but rather should 
be shared by municipalities at large and indeed 
many of those should be shared by the Federal 

The matter, for example, of unemployment 
insurance, as we all know, operates over a limited 
number of weeks, and if the workman finds himself 
still out of work after his unemployment insurance 
payments have expired, where does he go? Does he 
go to the Federal Government at Ottawa or does he 
go to the Provincial Government at Queens Park, 
or does he go to the clerk of the local munici- 
pality where he lives? We all know that in nine 
cases out of ten the clerk of the local municipality 
is the individual who first learns of the hardship 
which any one of their constituents may be ex- 
periencing, and he applies there for relief. 

I suggest to you ■ - in the case of un- 
employed employables that is a direct responsibility 
of the Federal Government who have established in 
some measure an unemployment insurance programme, 
but as we have seen in the past two months the 
programme which the Federal Government have set 
up is not an all-inclusive programme. We cannot 


allow a man and his wl,fe to starve simply because 
the municipality may not be legally responsible. 
It does not . provide food and clothing or say to 
an unemployed employable: "We in the municipality 
and in the province do . not regard ourselves as being 
responsible: you should go to Ottawa." First of all, 
how is he going to get the money to get to Ottawa, 
and, secondly, that does not provide food and clothing, 
Consequently, what do you find? You find that even 
though there may not be a legal responsibility to 
provide food and clothing for persons under such 
circumstances, in many cases, in order to hold body 
and soul together, the local municipality is the body 
which does assume the cost. 

Coming then into the matter of children's 
aid or children's welfare, I had a case in my own 
office not very long ago where a father had been 
convicted of an offence and was sent down for two 
years. He had left behind in the family residence, 
which was being purchased and was subject to a 
mortgage, a wife and two small children, the 
youngest child being a matter of months old. It 
was not practicable for that wife to go to work. 
The husband was incarcerated in one of our penal 
institutions; what was to happen? What did happen 
was this: the wife made application for mother's 
allowance to the Province of Ontario and she 
readily received assistance 

(page E-5 follows. ) 


for herself and her two children. Insofar 
as the matter of responsibility is concerned, 
is it the responsibility of the province alone 
or of the municipality, or should it be shared in 
a much broader field? You see, if we look at that 
picture in the sense that the province had not 
"come through" with a contribution to that young 
mother and her children, what would have been the 
case? You would have had the father in a penal 
Institution who would be supported by the tax 
contributions of the people at large; you would 
have had the mother and the children supported by 
the local municipality with contributions coming 
through for relief — in other words, that whole 
family would have been supported at public expense. 

One may say: "Well, is that not what 
happened in this particular case now?" It is to a 
degree, but in that particular case I go one step 
further and I tell you this, that the young wife 
in that case was very, very anxious to get out and 
go to work and do something to provide for herself 
and her family, and the net result is that in a short 
period of months there is no doubt but what that 
wife will assist herself. In the meantime 
the wife did obtain assistance through the Mothers' 
Allowance Board of this Province of Ontario. 

Vfhere does the municipality get this 
money from2 There are only two sources: the moneys 
it derives in direct taxation on real estate or on 


business^ and the other source is what it gets by 
way of grant from the senior level of government. 
Those are the only sources of revenue which any 
municipality has. 

Someone may say: "Well, the municipality 
charges licence fees for this service and that 
service oporating within the -.confines of its 
borders, 'which .is all a form of t'axation." 
The licence fee which you pay for your motor car 
is a taxation, but then again we come to this 
next point in regard to the matter of taxation in 
municipalities, and this to me is a great injustice 
to the local municipalities. Every time a 
municipality purchases — whether it is -sand or 
gravel or stationery, a fire truck or a police 
cruiser or wha.tever it is -•- the municipality: is 
called upon to pay a sales tax to the Federal 
Government in order to provide essential municipal 
services to the taxpayers within the community. 
That is something which in my way of thinking 
should not exist. Why should we, as individuals, 
tax ourselves to provide a service which we need, 
especially when one realizes the very substantial 
surplus which the Federal Government has accumulated 
at Ottawa, and which amounts to several millions of 
dollars. Insofar as the local municipality is 
concerned, what municipality is there that can 
budget for a surplus? You and I all know that it 
is contrary to law for a municipality to budget for 


a surplus. The furthest that a municipality can 
go Is to provide a budget to supply essential 
services for that municipality for the next twelve 
months' period, but on the other hand we do find 
that both senior levels of government have sur- 
pluses, and consequently, as I do suggest to you> 
some of that surplus -- I am not saying all of It, 
but some of It — federally and provlnclally, 
should be shared with the municipality by way of 
increased grants. 

Coming to the matter of grants, I suggest 
that it would be of great Interest, and would be 
received very favourably by the municipalities at 
large, If grants were made to those municipalities 
without any strings attached; in other words have 
the grants made at large so that the local municipal 
council can determine whether they want to use a 
thousand dollars for road repairs or sidewalk re- 
pairs or street lighting or police protection; 
leave it up to the local municipal council to 
provide for the services within the borders of that 
municipality, whereas today grants are received with 
delineations marked around them as to the purpose 
for which they may be used, and, to say the least, 
that does curtail the activity of the local muni- 
cipal council in providing those particular services, 

What has the provincial government done 
for municipalities in the past few years? Back 
in 19^3 the total amount of municipal grants 


amounted to approximately $l8 million. In 1951 
the total amount of municipal grants exceeded 
$100 million. It seems to me, and I am sure to 
all of us, that today we are becoming very much 
accustomed to talking in terms of millions of 
dollars, whereas twenty and thirty years ago we 
'were quite content to talk in terms of thousands 
of dollars, and indeed, insofar as the matter of 
defence programme is concerned and the annual 
budget of the United States of America, we are 
fast being educated to talk in terms of billions 
of dollars. We realize, of course, that we are 
dealing with an inflationary period at this time 
and the monetary value today is not the same as it 
was two or three decades ago, but nevertheless 
each of the three levels of government do have 
an obligation to provide services for their 
respective bodies and to take care of the activi- 
ties with which they are charged. 

However, be that as it may, there is one 
thing which I would definitely suggest dealing 

with in the matter of taxation, and that is the 
real estate owner should very definitely be re- 
lieved of much of the financial cost and respon- 
sibility which i - thrust upon his doorstep at the 
present time. How is that going to be done? 
We all know that every dollar which is used either 
by the Federal Government, the Provincial Government 
or the Municipal Government all comes from one 
source; it comes from" John Public", the taxpayer. 


He is the man who has to provide the money, and as 
long as "John Public" Is willing to provide the 
money for the services. for which he asks, the 
three levels of government I am sure are quite 
willing and ready to provide those services. I 
do suggest J however, and it has become quite appar- 
ent over the past few months, that there Is a 
general realization among the three governments at 
large and even among the members of the public 
that the owner of real estate Is being charged with 
too much responsibility from a financial standpoint. 

I want to deal with one phase of welfare 
service with which municipalities are charged today. 

It Is a very severe and heavy cost and at the 
same time It is a most Important service, and that 
Is the matter of the providing of funds for 
children's aid societies by municipal councils. 
I am perhaps more familiar with the County of York 
than any other county In the Province of Ontario, 
but back In 1929 the total budget of the County of 
York for children's aid society purposes was 
approximately $10,000. In the year 1951 the total 
budget for children's aid work In the County of 
York was over $300,000. That money was raised . 
primarily as a direct charge on real estate against 
the 26 municipalities In the County of York. As 
against that -- and this has only happened since 
19^7 -- the provincial government comes through 
with 25 per cent of the cost of ward care In 
providing such a service. 

(Take "F" follows) 


Prior to 1947, the total amount of financial 
grant which was received by the York County Council for 
Children's Aid Society work was the grand total of 


1,500. as against a potential of much more than 

$250,000, You can see that pricr to 1947, the provincial 
grant was "peanuts" so to speak, as compared with the 
gross expenditure of the local municipality. To-day, 
we find that Children's Aid Society work and welfare 
work generally is increasing. Let me take you back a 
matter of tv/enty or thirty years. We find this, that 
if a problem arose in q home, there was a mother or a 
father, sister or a brother, or a neighbour, who was 
ready and willing to take over and share in the process- 
ing of a problem, which might have confronted a child 
or a young married couple. To-day, what do we find? 
In many homes, in fact, in the majority of cases, if 
a problem arises affecting the child or a young married 
couple, immediately they hurl themselves onto society. 
These people say, "Well, the Government can look after 
me" or"the Children's Aid Society can look after the 
child". In other words, there is no longer that same 
home responsibility that there was twenty or thirty 
years ago. To me, we are, I think, getting av/ay from 
one of the prime responsibilities, not only of the 
individual and of the family, but one of the great 


privileges which existed in the past, and it is a 
necessity to-day to become associated by way of sharing 
that great problen. 

In conclusion, I want to deal with the matter 
of civilian defence. Civilian defence is something about 
which we have had much talk and very little action over 
the past few months. Civil defence, as you know, has 
been advanced as a civilian-military effort, if you like, 
for the protection of the personnel of our municipalities. 
We have heard much about it over the past two and a 
half years and back in 1951, there v/as organized in 
this local area of Toronto and York, a civil defence 
committee which v;as represented by representatives of 
each of the municipalities in the County of York and of 
the City of Toronto. That committee met together, 
appointed its own officials and proce?ded with a program 
as far as they could go. They appointed a director, 
and finally came to the point where they were confronted 
with a potential expenditure of several hundred thousand 
dollars to set up a control centre. The Federal Govern- 
ment had said that civilian defence was the responsibility 
of the local municipalities, but for certain purposes, 
the Federal Government v/ould pay a share or a certain 
portion of the costs. They said they would provide 
medical supplies and certain other eq.uipment. The 
■Provincial Governraent had come through and said, "We are 


willing and ready to contribute certain sums of money 
to assist in that program". The one fallacy in regard 
to the whole setup is this^ that the direct responsibility 
was cast upon the local municipalities and the local 
municipality is the one group which, to-day, has to share 
in the great expense. It is hoped in the future, 
as time goes on and this civilian expense program is 
extended, that we will get some leadership from Ottawa 
•in Ontario, to do many of the things that are presently 
cast upon the doorstep of the local municipalities. Yife 
hope we will be given practical aid and help, by the 
Federal Government, 

In conclusion I want to say to you that it is 
my hope and I know it is the immediate concern of each 
and every one of us here, and I know it is the intention 
of the Government to-day, to continue to provide good 
Government in th'e province of Ontario, as it has in 
the past, in the years to come, during the term of office, 

MR, A. H. COWLING (High Park): Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, I v/ould like to say that if the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) and the hon. Leader of the Opposition 
(Mr. Oliver) have any difficulty tying their gifts that 
were given to them by our very esteemed guest, I would be 
happy to oblige and give them a few lessons, 

I would like to say, also, how very honoured I 


am to be here representing a fine district, High Park. 
As you know, High Park has been a good staunch Conserva- 
tive riding ever since it was a riding. We had a bit 
of a relapse during the last two or three years, but, 
Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will do my best to see that it 
does not happen again, 

I v;ould like to congratulate the hon. member 
for Bellwoods (Mr, Yaremko) . I think he deserves more 
credit than anyone else, because he personally took on 
the big job of ousting one of the former hon, members 
of the House, a Communist member. He did an excellent 
job, and I am proud to be sitting here with him, I 
know his contribution to the Government of our great 
province will be good and it will be sensible, 

I knov\r it is tradition here to refer to all 
other hon. members as the "honourable", but in regard 

to the member for St. Andrew (J/tr. Salsberg) , I v/ill 
have to skip that in making any reference to him , during 
this Session or any other Session, Anybody who 
represents the way of ' life he does; should not even 
be here in the first place and to be termed "honourable" 
is just too much. 

Incidentally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I do not 
know whether any of the other hon, members received 
some literature, very good literature, but it comes 


in the form of a card depicting life behind the Iron 
Curtain. An address is given on Q,ueen St. W. , in Toronto, 
a very amazing thing. I cannot understand how this 
group should be permitted to circulate such literature 
and, yet, I suppose in this great, free, democratic 
Canada of ours v/e will put up with almost anything to 
allow people complete freedom. About the time v/e suggest 
or get around to the point of recomraending that we 
eliminate these particular individuals, is just about 
the time they would be in a position to appeal to a 
certain group that they were martyrs to the cause and 
the iublicity that they may now enjoy would be small 
to what it would be in those circumstances. 

I was very much taken with the remarks of 
our honoured guest here to-daj'-, when he referred to the 
■great place that Danada takes in world affairs and the 
great friendship and understanding developed over the 
years between the United States and Canada. I vms 
impressed when he referred to the threat of communism, 
when he talked about our Canadian boys fighting side 
by side with those of our Allies in Korea. It is pretty 
hard in the face of those remarks with v/hich I very 
definitely agree, with every one of them, how we at home, 
in this country, have in the Parliament of the Province 
of Ontario, someone who is definitely opposed to that 


way of life. I v/ould like to make it very clear at the 
beginning of this Session, where I stand in regards to 
communism. The member for St. Andrev/ (Mr. Salsberg) 
is a very adept speaker, and fortunately he will have 
to talk at great lengths in this Session, or any other 
Session, because I am sure the hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) will not provide him v;-ith a pool of seconders. 
He made reference in his speech to his former colleague 
and said he hoped to have him back some day, I would 
like to say here and now that he will never be back 
and If the member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) 
has the good fortune to be re-elected at any future 
date, I am sure he will have long, white whiskers before 
h? s friend is back in this House, 

I have the privilege of representing a good 
section of the people of our city on the Council of the 
city of Toronto. Some few years ago, we had two 
communists there by the name of Charlie Sims and Norman 
Freed and they had a lot to say, very much along the 
same lines as the hon. member for St, Andrew (Mr, Salsberg). 
As a matter of fact, they said the same thing. Then- 
came an election and there was only one; and along came 
another election and there were none. I am proud to say 
that in the Council of the city of Toronto, we do not 
have any communist representatives and I would like to 
prophecy here and now that as time goes on and there 


is a provincial election, that the sole remaining member 
representing the Communist Party, will become past 
history and remain that way. 

May I speak for a moment about Homes for the 
Aged. I would like to tell you about the finest Home 
for the Aged in the world and it is located in Toronto, 
it is called Lambert Lodge. I know the hon. member for 
Bracondale (Ivlr. Frost) in whose riding Lambert Lodge is 
situated, will bear v/ith me because he and I were on 
the committee set up to look after the workings of 
Lambert Lodge. I was appointed as a liason between the 
Council and the Lodge, and I am very familiar with the 
job the province did in the establishment of Lambert Lodge. 

For the benefit of our out-of-town hon. 
members, may I suggest that if you have time, it would 
be well worth your v.'hile some morning, afternoon, or 
evening, to take a tour through Lambert Lodge. It is a 
terrific institution, Mr, Deputy Speaker, Somewhere close 
to 750 people reside there to-day. It was a nev/ venture, 
nobody had a very definite yardstick to go by, I would 
like to give credit where credit is due because the 
Federal Government had a part to play in this, when 
they turned over the old Christie Street Hospital at 
a very nominal charge. Here, again, we see what co- 
operation betv;een three levels of Government can 


accomplish. I could not help but think, when the hon. 
member for York West (Mr, Brandon) was talking about. three 
levels of Government, of the part they played. It might 
be a suggestion to set up a Joint committee comparable 
to the Provincial-Munici.pal Committee, a committee 
to embrace the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Govern- 
ments, A great many of our local problems could be 
ironed out through that procedure. 

To get back to Lambert Lodge again, we have 
people from all walks of life there; we have people of 
many ages and a great cross-section of our Canadian life, 

I had the privilege of visiting in the city 
of St. Louis last fall, to attend a meeting of people 
from all over the v;orld, to study geriatrics, which is 
the study of older folk, and how to help them. This is 
something that is fast coming to the forefront, it is 
a study that requires a certain type of individual with 
an understanding and a liking for our senior citizens. 
It might be suggested that together Vvdth the Welfare 
Department of the province of Ontario, which has control 
of Lambert Lodge, that we should tie in health. That 
"institution" — I do not like to refer to it as an 
institution, because it is actually a home -- is 
developing not only into a Home for the Aged, but into 
a hospital. 7/e all know that people getting on in 


years, suffering from arthritis and heart disease and 
senility, and other things, are happy and well one day 
and the next day they are in bed and reg.uire the attention 
of a doctor. By co-operative effort on behalf of the 
Department of V/elfare and the Department of Health of 
the province, they could possibly consider the idea of 
better care and attention. 

I have some figures here v^rhich are very 
startling , that came out of that conference at St. Louis. 
The life expectancy in 1900 was 38 years; life 
expectancy in 1952 is 68 years. You can see that we 
have a brand new problem here, people are living longer, 
they are being more active and it is our problem and our 
challenge to discover ways and means of taking care of 
them. Also I would like to note that if a baby survives 
the first year of its life, there is a 50-50 chance it 
will live to be 70 years of age. A very remarkable thing. 
As far as Homes for the A^ed are concerned, the province 
of Ontario, with the city of Toronto, is doing a 
fine job, A great many people have visited Lambert Lodge 
from that conference. They wanted to discover how we 
operate up here, how we finance it, what type of 
individual is admitted Into the Home. I can say without 
fear of contradiction that in this particular case 
where we have a joint effort by the province and the 


local government, we have the finest Home for the A^ed 
in the v/orld. They have a committee set up at the 
present time to investigate and make a survey to establish 
Homes for the Aged in all parts of the city of Toronto 
and in the outlying municipalities. They are making 
great strides in that direction and I hope very shortly 
we will have local homes in various parts of the city, 
I have a very sympathetic point of viev/ toward the rural 
places, and the smaller places, and yet I want you to 
bear with me when I make certain remarks about the city 
of Toronto. After all, the city of Toronto has about 
one-q.uarter of the 'total population of Ontario within 
the Greater Toronto area. We may have some problems 
that are not the same as yours, because in a larger city 
you have an accumulation of population that have 
different requirements and needs, than you have in the 
smaller cities. Just to refer to one for instance, 
in the v/intertime, we get a great influx of people from 
outlying areas into Toronto. They come here because 
they know that they are going to be taken care of, they 
are going to be provided v/ith a place to sleep and some 
food. V/& do not turn anybody away, but at the same time, 
the local taxpayers who pay the shot, are not recom- 
pensed in any way. That is something that is happening 
here right now. It happens in all the larger cities, I 


include London, Windsor, Ottawa, and they all have the 
same problem that the smaller municipalities do not 
have to face. If the province will give leadership' to 
the local governments in applying for additional aid 
from the Federal Government, then we can do a real job. 
The local taxpayer has arrived at the limit of local 
taxation. There is no' question in my mind about that, 
I was very pleased to note, and the Government is to be 
con{^ratulated,on setting up this new Provincial-Municipal 
comr.iittee. In my opinion, that is one of the most 
important corairdttees that has been set up in the 
Government for a long time. 

(Take G follows) 


I know they are going to do a good job and anything 
that we as ^private members representing all the 
sections of this great province can do to assist 
them, we will be only too happy to do, and I speak 
of certain things as applying to our own area in the 
hope that they will consider them and give them the 
required attention 

Getting back to our Lambert Lodge picture, 
we are happy about the whole situation there and the 
great contribution to our way of life that is being 
made. Just imagine, for married people there are 
private rooms there -- for the elderly people — 
and, hon. members, as I suggested before, if any of 
you are particularly interested in that aspect of the 
welfare development, do take time out to visit Lambert 
Lodge . 

I would like to say a word here about the 
Humber Bridge situation, and the members here will 
recall the great controversy and discussion in the 
papers on that particular issue. I am interested in 
It from this point of view, that as a member of the 
Toronto City Council I was, in a small way, respon- 
sible for widening certain city roads on each side of 
this Humber bottleneck and I would like to say that 
I was very pleased to read in the press where the 
hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar) gave 
a very favourable ear to the requests of the city and, 
in all probability, there will 

(page G-2 follows. ) 


be something done to eliminate the traffic over the 
Humber Bridge. It is a well-known fact that there are 
more cars pass over the Humber Bridge on a Sunday 
afternoon than any other place on the North American 
Continent, and I would like to suggest, Mr. Deputy 
Speaker, that we consider the idea of another bridge, 
or possibly a cloverleaf at that section, where the 
people from the outlying municipalities and everyone 
coming in over the Queen Elizabeth Highway and from 
any place out in the West End can travel into downtown 
Toronto. I suggest if the Lakeshore Road is widened 
to six lanes and we have another overpass or underpass 
at the Humber River, certainly one of the big problems 
will be solved. The present bridge was built and paid 
for, I think, completely by the City of Toronto, so 
that possibly it might be a suggestion at this time, 
in the event the experts believe we should have 
another crossing of the Humber River, the province 
and the federal government could assist, and we 
could have good co-operation by all levels of 
government . 

I would like to say a word about a local 
project, — I know you will bear with me — in the 
High Park riding. We have the stockyards there, and 
certainly in the past few days there has been a great 
deal said about livestock. I think 


we are the only large city anywhere that permits 
livestock to cross one of our busy intersections 
and right out in that area, near or adjacent to 
the corner of Keele and St. Clair, the livestock 
cross there several times during the day. We seem 
to feel that some consideration should be given to 
the idea of an underpass from the stockyards or 
where the stock comes in on the south side across 
to the great packing houses on the north side and, 
Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I realize in replying to the 
Speech from the Throne we are permitted to make 
suggestions particularly of a local nature, that is 
one which I am making right now and I would like to 
have something done or some consideration given to the 
remedy of that other traffic bottleneck. 

At the same time I would like to personally 
congratulate the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) 
as has been done here many times before in this 
Session, for his fine work in assisting in the 
settlement of the T.T.C. strike. Mr. Deputy Speaker, 
that was quite a problem in and around the City of 
Toronto and I know I speak for the citizens as a 
whole when I say that the provincial Labour Depart- 
ment, under the capable direction of the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Daley), was responsible in no small 
part for the final conclusion of that strike. Any 
of you who happened to be in Toronto around that 
time, must have been amazed at the way the 


automobiles took care of the situation. 

I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that pretty- 
well takes care of what I wanted to say today. I am 
Interested in assistance to the local governments, as 
has been mentioned here today by a former Speaker. It 
is necessary. They Just cannot carry the load and 
anything that we can do — anything that this 
Provincial-Municipal Committee can set up to remedy 
that situation, I know will be all to the good. 

As far as our local situation is concerned, 
I mentioned before it is a privilege to represent 
High Park riding. I want the people out there, 
regardless of what their political views might be, 
to feel that I am representing everybody in the area 
and I certainly know that we villi go on to bigger 
and better government and larger responsibilities 
in this great Province of Ontario. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I feel that the co- 
operation of all levels of government is certainly 
a thing that we should strive for here today. 

MR. G. T. GORDON (Brant ford ) : Mr. Speaker, 
I move the adjournment of the debate. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Deputy Speaker, before the adjournment of the 
House I have the answers to questions 6 and 36, 


which I shell table. 

In ccnnoction with Q,uesti .-ns 15 and 16 asked 
by the hon, nienber for Kenora (Mr. Wren), the answers 
are very lengthy and I would like to riake then Orders 
for Return, 

Ivffi. F, H. OLIVEIi (Leader of the Oppositirn): 
Can we not leave that over until we have a chance to 
look at then? 

IvIR. FROST (Prine Minister): I v/ill be very 
glad to do that. I was going to ask that they be nade 
Orders for Return. 

Mi, OLIVER: Wii;. wc talk about it to-norrow? 

m.. FROST (Prine Minister): Yes, that is 
all rirht. 

Mr. Deputy Spoaktr, tonorrow I want to 
proceed with the second reading; of the Crown Tinber Act 
which stands in the nane of the Minister of Lands and 
Forests (Mr. Scott). There nay be sone other natters 
that v;c can nove along on the Order paper, but I would 
like to go ahead with the adjourned debate on the 
anendnent to the anendnent tc the notion for an 
Address in Reply to the Speech fron the Throne, 
foil' wing that, Y/e will carry out that procedure 
tonorrow and also on Thursday, 

P.IR. OLIVER: I wonder if I night say to 
the hon. Prine Minister (Mr. Frost) regarding the 


second rer.';'Ling of the Crown Tinber Act, we were very 
anxious to have the cienber for Kenora (Mr. V/ren) here, 
and he is unavoidably absent for a few days. Is there 
any urgency? 

MR. FFxOST (Prine Minister): We are sending 
the whole Act to the Cconittee on Lands and Forests 
and we wanted to discuss it tomorrow so that it could go 
forward to the Conniittee, The hon. IVIinister (IVIr. Scott) 
is goin^- to make an explanation of scne of the matters 
relating to his Department which are set out in the Act. 
He will be speaking again on the Estimates , but that is 
a very big subject and he is going to speak tomorrow 
on certain matters. Vie will send the whole Act on to 
the Committee on lands and Forests, where the hon. m.ember 
for Kenora (Mr. Wren) will have the fullest opportunity — 
I believe he is on the Committee -- of discussing any 
section or sections of the Act, 

(Take "H" follows) 


MR. OLIVER: That is agreeable. May I ask 
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), when will the 
St. Lawrence Bills be up for Committee stage? 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): We are ready to 
go ahead with them at any time. Mr. Speaker, there 
are a large number of speakers on the amendment to 
the Motion in reply to the Speech from the Throne 
whose names are in the hands of the Whips here in this 
House, I have been anxious to give hon. members 
of Qiis House every prcojdence I can in connection 
with that Debate and therefore have held back some 
of these matters. It may be that by the end of 
this week we shall be able to see if we can clear 
things easily so that we can bring down the Budget — 
we hope by the twentieth. We can proceed then with 
some of these matters on Tuesday and Wednesday next. 
If there is any Order which my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver) 
would prefer held, if he would let me know I will 
be very glad to do that. 

Mr. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 5,45 o'clock P.M. 


of til? 

Prautnr^ of (§ntmtt 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XV 

Wednesday, March 12, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

^. C Sturgeon, 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Buildings 



F I F T E E N T H 



of the 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 19$2, et seq. 

Hon. (Rev.) M. 0. Davies, Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Wednesday, March 12, 1952. 

The House having met, 3 o'clock p.m. 


MR. SPEAKER: There is a small matter to which 
I would like to draw the attention of the hon. members, 
if I may. There are occasions when I, as the Speaker, 
leave the Chair, and the Chairman of the Committee of 
the Whole House, or another hon, member may occupy the 
Speaker's Chair. I have been looking over some of the 
debates, and I notice that when I am absent, the occu- 
pant of the Chair has been referred to as "Mr, Deputy 





lHay I say we have no Deputy Speaker. I am 
sure the hon. members realize that, and it would be 
better if the hon. members would address the Chair 
as "Mr. Speaker", regardless of who may be the occu- 
pant at that particular time. That will clarify the 
whole situation, and we can carry on, according to 
the rules. 

Therefore, I will ask the hon. members to 
address the Chair as "Mr, Speaker" under all circum- 

Of course, when the Chairman of the Committee 
of the Whole House is so acting, he is addressed, 
naturally, as "Mr. Chairman", but when the House is 
in full session and the mace is on the table, the 
Chair is addressed as "Mr. Speaker". 

Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by Committees, 


Introduction of Bills. 

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Provide for 
the making of Enquiries in connection with Hospitals, 


Sanitoria, Charitable Institutions, and other Organiza- 

He said: Mr, Speaker, this Bill arises as the 
result of a complaint which was made by the Chairman of 
the Board of the East Windsor Hospital. Apparently, 
from what information has been laid before me and before 
the Hon. Minister of Health (Mr. Phillips), there are 
certain possible irregularities which may turn out to 
be quite extensive in connection with the administration 
of that hospital. 

It is well-known that under the Public Enquiries 
Act there is not power to appoint a Commissioner for the 
purpose of enquiring into an organization of this kind. 
The powers of enquiry, under the present legislation, 
are generally limited in that Act to matters pertaining 
to the Government service, in connection with any Prov- 
incial Government official. 

In considering this problem, it will be recalled 
that in 1949, a somewhat similar situation arose in con- 
nection with another hospital, also in the City of Windsor, 
and an Act was passed specially in the Session of that 
year providing for an enquiry into that particular hos- 
pital , 

The Government has come to the conclusion that 


it would be desirable to have general powers of enquiry 
into all institutions of this type, to which the Govern- 
ment makes substantial financial grants. This Bill is 
designed for that purpose, and provides that whenever 
the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council deems it expedient 
to cause an enquiry to be made concerning any matter, 
whether arising before or after the date this Act 
comes into force, connected with or affecting any hos- 
pital, sanitorium, charitable institution or other 
organization that is granted aid out of monies appro- 
priated by the Legislature, he may, by Commission, 
appoint one or more persons to conduct such enquiry, 
and every person so appointed for that purpose shall 
have the powers conferred upon him or them as upon a 
Commission appointed under the Public Enquiries Act, 

Generally, the provisions of the Public 
Enquiries Act, as to procedure, and so on, will be 
made applicable to this Bill. As soon as this Bill 
becomes law, it is my intention to appoint a Commis- 
sioner to make an enquiry as requested. 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Would this 
legislation give authority to investigate such insti- 
tutions as the Canadian Nat ionaj.. Exhibition in 

_,Ii!iR, PORTER: We do not make any grants to the 


Canadian National Exhibition, 

l^, FROST: We pay rent. 

YR, PORTER: That is not a grant-in-aid. 

im. A, REAUI''.'£ (Lssex North): Mr. Speaker, I 
would like to make a short statement on this, if I may. 

First of all, I want to say that I approve 
of the Bill, and certainly also approve of the probe. 
However, the people of '/Jindsor have a stake in the 
institution involved, and I think we should join with 
you, and as mayor, I am going to send our people in. 
This, I hope, will be agreeable to the Government, 
I trust that the Government will not make a football 
out of this, as they sometimes have done in the past, 
because this really is an important institution, and, 
Mr. Speaker, as you knov;, it is doing a very fine work. 

If agreeable, I think it would be well for the 
people of Windsor, through their Board of Control, to 
join with the Government in a joint probe. If that 
is agreeable, I can issue orders at once to that 

1,'IR. PORTER: Of course, it is customary in an 
enquiry of this kind, to have interested parties rep- 
resented by counsel, and I suggest if the City of 
Windsor wishes to be represented by counsel at the 


enquiry, no doubt that will be quite in order. 

But, so far as the power of enquiry is con- 
cerned, the Government must retain the right of 
appointing the Commissioner. It is either an enquiry 
under the authority given to the Government, or, if 
the municipality has any power of enquiry, this Bill 
would not take it away. This gives us the power to 
enquire where we see fit in cases where we make grants 
in aid to institutions of this kind. 

It is possible that a situation such as this 
may arise from time to time, and we feel it is high 
time we clothe ourselves with powers of this kind. 
After all, it is merely an enquiry for the purpose of 

obtaining facts. An enquiry of this kind does not 
decide on the rights of any individual, or the guilt 
of any individual, if any there be. If the facts 
which come forward lead to some further proceedings, 
that may be taken into consideration in due course. 
This is merely extending the powers of enquiry, in 
view of the very much extended program of grants to 
a great variety of institutions of all kinds in this 
Province, and I think the time has come when this 
type of amendment i-s very necessary. 


Iffi. HARRY NIXON (Brant): Who will pay the 
cost in this instance, may I ask? I think in the last 
one, the municipality paid the cost, 

I'IR. PORTER: There is nothing in this Act 
which mentions that. I think under the Public Enquiries 
Act the Government pays. The Public Enquiries Act pro- 
visions are made applicable to this Act in all these 
features, and under the Public Enquiries Act, the 
Government xvould pay the costs, 

I''1R. SALSBERG: '.'ould it be a matter of policy 
to consult the municipal authorities before an enquiry 
is launched? 

I'TR, PORTER: This is not a municipal institu- 
tion. This is a hospital, I am informed, that is 
supported by what is termed "a community", which crosses 
municipal boundaries. It is not controlled, I am in- 
formed, by the municipality. I may say, however, that 
I have not yet had the opportunity of looking into the 
details, because this only came to my attention within 
the last few hours. I do understand that the Municipal 
Council has really no control over this hospital. As I 
say, that is according to my information. 

IvIR, REaUIS:- That is not quite right. I think 
before ordering a probe, you should find out what it 


is all about. 

III. PORTER: !'Je will find out when we carry 
on the probe, 

MR, REaULCE: I understand that, and I do not 
v.'ant to spend an hour going into it at this time. The 
hospital in question is helped by way of grants from 
Ottawa, the Province, and ourselves. All I wish to 
say is that I hope we can join with you. We certainly 
will appoint ouJ". auditors and counsel to go in there. 

Also, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I heard 
to-day that there have been some people there who 

were discharged from their jobs. Is that true? 
Have any persons connected with the hospital been 

discharged within the last, day. or so? 

IM, PORTER: Vie have no power to discharge 
anybody. This hospital, as I understand it, operates 
under a charter, and the Governors are elected by 
members of the Association in somewhat the same way 
as other officers are, in the case of any institution 
of this kind, and the whole question of the constitu- 
tion of this sort of institution might well be looked 
into. As a result of this inquiry, we may get some 
recommendations which would be useful in changing our 
course of action. 


M. REiiUlIE: I agree. I do not mind the 
probe. The only thing I want to make sure of is that 
nobody will be blackened or hurt until such time as 
the probe is completed. That is all. 

I.IR. PORTLR: As far as we are concerned, we 
do not come to any judgment until we know all the 

lift. aSAUr'E: I am happy to hear that. ' 

Mi. P0RT2R: \'Ie may not know all the facts 
until an extensive enquiry is conducted. 


HOK. DiJJj-. PORTER (Attorney-General) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the 
Trustees Act". 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

• He said: Iv'r, Speaker, in introducing this 
Bill, I wish to say that the Government is not taking 
the position in respect to this Bill that it is, in 
the ordinary sense, a matter of Government policy. 
Recommendations have been made to the Government, 
particularly by Trust Companies who are engaged in a 
large way in administering estates, and investing trust 
funds, and the proposal has been made, as a result of 
careful thought on the part of officials engaged in 


this sort of business, that investing powers of trustees 
should be extended, and instead of being limited to the 
type of bonds -- "gilt-edged securities", as they are 
sometimes called -- which has been the law for many 
years, that it be extended in a way somewhat similar, 
although not exactly, to the investing powers of an 
insurance company. 

The Government sees som.e pitfalls in this 
proposed legislation, and what is proposed is that 
this Bill be put forward as a matter for consideration 
and discussion, and be referred to the Legal Bills 
Committee, and that Committee hear interested parties, 
and others pressing for this type of legislation, and 
that they be called to present their case, and be sub- 
ject to questioning by any member who might wish so to 

In a matter of this kind, we have in the 
Province a great many Trust Companies who have staffs 
of people who are familiar with investments, and whose 
business it is to keep their eyes upon the movement of 
investments of one kind and another, upon the market. 

On the other hand, there are a great many 
estates which fall into the hands of trustees who, in 
many cases, may not be qualified people with respect to 


the investment field. As a matter of fact, very often 
the executor under the will is the widow of the deceased, 
and may have no business experience at all, 

'.'/hether or not the powers proposed in this 
legislation are somev;hat too broad, or even whether 
it is necessary to deal with this matter at all at 
the present time, is something which should be thor- 
oughly considered by the Comriittee after hearing the 
representations which may be miade by any interested 
party or group, and they should consider every aspect 
of this problem to determine what is the practical and 
sane thing to do at the present tim.e. 

One of the great advantages of the Legal Bills 
Committee in dealing with this type of legislation is 
that on that Comraittee we will have, no doubt, a cross- 
section of hon. members representing constituencies 
throughout the Province, who will know a little more 
about the local conditions, and the manner of procedure, 
and the operation of trustees under wills, and the 
effect of some of the things they might do. 

The Government is in this position; for 
instance, in the Department of the Attorney-General, 
we have a staff of legal counsel who very seldom are 
directly concerned v/ith problems of this kind, and 



I think it v/ould be very helpful indeed to draw upon 
the advice from much broader sources, to find out 
what criticisms might be levelled, and some of the 
changes which are contemplated in this legislation. 

The Government is prepared, as I say, to 
introduce this legislation, with that in view, and 
in view of the nature of the Bill, and the scope of 
it, it is really essential that it should be a 
Government Bill. 

With these reservations, I have introduced 
the Bill to-day. 

(Take "B" follows) 




peactitionsis' act 

HON. 11. PHILLIPS (ilnlstor of Hoalth) movos 
first reading of Bill intitulod "An Aot to amond tho 
Jruglcss Practitionors' Act". 

He said: Mr. Spoakor , this is an amendment 
that involves one principle only and that ia that 
it authorizes tho Lieutenant -Governor in Council to 
appoint separate boards of directors for the different 
classifications of drugless practitioners and provides 
for the composition of the separate boards. These 
boards vdll be made up of at least three and not moro 
than five members. 

¥iR. J. 3. SALSBERG (^t. Andrew): Mr. Speaker, 
may I address a question to the Minister? 


ivIR. S^L^BERG: V/ill that Bill affect adversely 
the Christian Science Church and its practices? 

MR, PHILLIPS: This will not affect anybody 
except the groups who have asked for this and it 
includes the osteopaths, chiropractors, naturopaths, 
physiotherapists and mas:.eurs. It covers the five 
classifications only. 

Motion agreed to: First reading of the Bill. 

HON. I,. J. jJUNLOP (Minister of Education) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled "An Act to amend the 
Public Libraries' Act", 


He said: Mr. Speaker, the piirpose of this Bill 
is to authorize public libraries, always \'vith the 
consent of the municipal council, to acquire buildings 
which are larger than might bo required for library- 
purposes purely, and to rent the rooms which they do 
not need, for classes in the evenings, or meetings 
for general purposes, w] have to do with the 
function of a library. There is also a provision added 
to this Bill to enable public library boards to establish 
pension schemes and sick leave credit schemes for 
their employees in the same manner as municipal councils 
and school boards may establish such schemes. 

Motion agreed to: First reading of the Bill. 

HON. H.R. SCOTT (Minister of Lands arid Forests) 
moves first reading of Bill intituled "An Act to amend 
the Forest Fires Prevention Act". 

MR. G.C. V\rARDROPE (Port Arthur): ¥^, Speaker, 
I just wish to say a word to the Minister. Wo have 
had a lot of public outcry in my district when the 
pulp companies who have these large tracts of timber 
ban the public from entering over their roads for the 
purpose of fishing and hunting, and I was v.ondering 
if at the same time this Bill is passed, 

(Page B-3 follows) 


some amendment of Bome kind b-e put in there 
allowing, at seasons when the fire hazard is not very 
great,. t 're pv;)lic tn enter those arears to hunt and 
fish. I an speaking of areas that are hun- 
dreds of square miles in area. 

MR. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, the point 
brought up by the hon. member for Port Arthur 
(Mr. Wardrope) could hardly be covered in this 
Bill as thic is forest fire prevention. 

Th2 purpose of the amendment to this Bill 
is that at the present time when we wish an area at 
times of high fire hazard closed to travel, vje have 
to file a very lengthy description of the area. This 
amendment enables us to lay out the forest districts 
of the province now and name them, so that in the event 
of hig^:: fire hazard developing in any one of them, 
wc can say th-^.t "Dictrict''A' shall be closed", 
"District '3' shall be closed," so that we can get 
some action on it. 

The second portion covers the travel permit. 
As this permit stands at the present time it permits 
a traveller to start fires for cooking or warmth. 
There m.ight be occasions when we desire to issue per- 
m.lts vjhen conditions would not Justify starting a fire 
for these purposes, and we just wish to h3ve the fire 
permit changed sf) that we would have the authority to 
issue a permit to travel without necessarily Im- 
plying that a traveller could light a fire for 
cooking or warmtli. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 


MR. SPEAKER: I would Just like to clarify 
a little situation with regard to the position of 
the hon. members on the Introduction of a Bill. Gen- 
erally speaking we have allowed fair latitude in 
the asking of questions. On tile introduction 

it is fairly well established that we should 
only have an explanation of the Bill rather than 
the extensive debate which has sometimes occurred. 
I just wish to clarify, in tho minds of some 
of our hon. members* that on the first reading there 
is very, very little debate at all. There is 
plenty of time for discussion on the second reading 
and I trust you will accept my suggestion on it. 

Orders of the Day . 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Order 26. 
Mr. Speaker, in calling Order 26 which stands in the 
name of the Minister of Lands and Forests, I might 
say the desire is to advance this Bill so that it 
may go to the Committee on Lands and Forests where it 
will be fully considered. 

My friend the Leader of the Opposition 
(Mr. Oliver) spoke to me about this Bill. One of 
the members on his side who is interested is away to- 
day and I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that 
we will have the fullest debate on this question, if 
it is desired, in connection with the Estimates, and 
If an hon. member at that time desires to raise any 
point, he may do so, but it will facilitate the 
business of the House if we refer it to the Committee, 



HON. H. R. SCOTT (Minister of Lands and 
Forests) moved second reading of Bill No. 56, the 
Crown Timber Act, 1952. 

He said: Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) suggests, this is going to go to the 
Committee on Lands and Forests for study, and I 
would be only too glad to arrange that the meeting 
of that Committee be held at such a time as the hon. 
member for Kenora (Mr. Wren) gets back. You are 
expecting him very shortly? 

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
Oh, yes, he will be here at the first of the week. 

MR. SCOTT: I feel some explanation might 
be given why these various Acts came into the 
Statutes. What is now the Province of Ontario was 
once endowed with a forest wealth almost boyond 
imagination. Forests stretched unbroken from the 
Ottawa River to Niagara Falls, Sarnia and to the 
Manitoba boundary . There were hundreds of dif- 
ferent kinds of trees, many of them producing 
excellent timber for various uses and many of them 
growing to great size. 

For more than 2 centuries after the first 
colonists came to Ontario the main concern was to 
push back the forests to make room for the settle- 
ments. The forest was almost looked upon as an 
enemy for it harboured their enemies, the Indians, 
and wild animals. The forests provided the 






material to build farm and village homes and 
furnishings, but enormous quantities of timber were 
wasted as the settlers cleared the land for farming 
because there were no markets for it. I often 
heard my grandfather speak of the big maple 
trees on our farm that were cut and hauled with 
oxen into big heaps for burning to make potash 
which was their only cash crop. 

Then, as the cities grew and industry develop- 
ed, a great period of lumbering began. Exploita- 
tion of the forest was on a Paul Biinyan scale as the 
sawyers and loggers performed giant feats with axe 
and saw to let "daylight into the swamp". Great 
river drives brought logs by the millions to the 
sawmills to meet the ever-increasing demands of a 
growing country for lumber. 

Even when all the merchantable timber in 
one locality was cut and the local sawmill had to 
close down, there was always more timber over the 
next hill. No thought was given to forest manage- 
ment to ensure the continued life of the community 
which had grown up around the mill. High grading 
of the choice trees left many forest stands in 
poor condition. Those early days saw the great 
square timber drives on the Ottawa going down to 
Montreal and Quebec for shipment to the old country. 
These timbers were hewn by broadaxe in the woods and 
whenever a flaw was disclosed, the partly hewn stick 
was left to rot in the woods. I am sure many of 



you older Members have seen these lying still, 
retaining their shape, showing the durability of 

The forests contributed and are contributing 
mightily to the development of our province. They 
built great cities, great industries and great 
fortunes. Timber was used lavishly and wastefully, 
because it was abundant and cheap. Despite some 
of the pressures of undersupply, we should still 
think in terms of regaining and maintaining 

Then a new phase of forest utilization 
appeared -- the pulp and paper industry. This 

"Uould utilize the smaller sizes of timber stands 
which had been scorned by the sawmill operators. 
The first pulp mill was established in l864. 

I have had placed on the desks of the hon. 
members of the House a copy of this brochure -- 

"Timber Management in Ontario." There are certain 

things in this which I would like the hon. members 

to really pay attention to. For instance, -- 

"To the forester the expression 
'sustained yield basis' means the 
maintenance of a sufficient forest 
area to meet the needs of the mill, 
with a distribution of age classes 
that will fit in with the rotation 
periods of cutting. Heretofore the 
methods pursued have been more hap- 
hazard. Trees have been cut at the 
convenience of the cutter and certain- 
ly without consideration of their 
future value. Under Ontario's 
present plans the long-term public 
interest will become the first 
consideration. " 




And then further: 

"The leading thought in the 
management of a forest property 
Is permanency -- the continued 
production of crops which take 
a century or more to produce. 
The farmer sows his crop In the 
spring and harvests it for the 
most part in the same year. The 
forester must wait for sixty to 
one hundred or more years between 
sowing and harvesting. He must 
carry an investment in growing 
timber fifty times as great in 
volume as the annual crop harvest. 
In addition to maintaining these 
reserves, the age classes of the 
timber must be such that an 
approximately equal volume will 
mature each year. It will always 
be difficult to convince a wood 
hungry nation ..." 

And I might even come down to a smaller unit of 

population than a nation -- 

"It will always be difficult to 
convince a wood- hungry nation 
of the necessity of maintaining 
adequate reserves of growing 
timber to furnish the relatively 
small annual wood harvest. The 
urge for the immediate gratifica- 
tion of wants does not tend to maks 
people readily adaptable to the 
principle of sustained yield 
timber management . " 

So, with between 1^00 and 1500 small 
sawmills, or sawmills of various sizes In the 
province, this definitely really expresses the 
feelings that are in our hearts some times when 
we approach new timber lands. 

And then, on page l4 we go on: the 
article is referring to a forest inventory, and 
this article goes on to say what we Intend to do: 




"Following the completion of the 
forest resources inventory, working 
plans will be prepared for the forested 
area of the province. These will vary 
in size of operation .and, due to the 
differences in forest and other con- 
ditions locally, will vary widely from 
Intensive management requirements to 
more general prescriptions ..." 

I was greatly pleased when one of the 
page boys approached me and asked me for a copy of 
this. I thought: "Well, surely the modern genera- 
tion is becoming forestry conscious." I asked him 
what he was going to do with it and he said he was 
going to put it in his scrap book. I do not want 
you gentlemen to do that; I want you to take it home 
and read it . 

MR. J. S. DEMPSEY (Renfrew South): The 
only thing I see wrong there, Mr . Minister, is that 
when they were cutting that tree down, they cut it 
a foot too high. 

MR. SCOTT: That was during the salvage 
operations when that tree was cut; time was of the 

The purpose of this Act is to consolidate 
the various statutes relating to the cutting, 
measurement, management and utilization of Crown 
timber . % 

The present statutes that are dealt with in 
the consolidation are as follows: 
The Crown Timber Act 
The Cullers Act 
The Forest Management Act 


The Forest Resources Regulation Act 

The Forestry Act 

The Mills Licensing Act 

The Provincial Forests Act 

The Pulpwood Conservation Act 

Generally, the purpose of this consolidation 

is to: 

1. Tidy up the legislation dealing with Crown 


2. Drop out-of-date practices; and 

3. Overcome duplication in the various Statutes. 

Generally no new principles are involved, 
but the .administrative practices in connection with 
Crown Timber are brought up-to-date. 

A great deal of time has been spent in assemb- 
ling the Act and cross-checking to see that no legis- 
lation of use is omitted. 

Discussions have been held with the Ontario 
Forest Industries Association and the Advisory 
Committee to the Minister. Both bodies have 
given a great deal of time in assisting with their 
advice and co-operation and I want to express my 
appreciation to them for the work they have done. 

The introduction of the Bill at this time 
is particularly opportune when we are dealing with 
the integration of operations in the forest — that 
is, the cutting from each acre of land a forest crop 
in the form best suited to the eventual use of that 
product, such as pulpwood, lumber, ties, telephone 


poles, etc. 

The main principles of the various Acts 
I have mentioned are embodied in the Bill be- 
fore you, and I will deal briefly with the subject 
matter of each of these. 

The Crown Timber Act deals with the 
granting of cutting rights with respect to Crown 
timber, the fixing of all Crown dues, fire pro- 
tection charges and ground rent, and the payment 
of these charges; the method of dealing with un- 
authorized cutting and protection of the Crown's 
interest in timber until all charges have been paid. 

Tlie cullers Act, dealing with the examination 
of applicants for scaling timber and their conduct 
as scalers, is embodied in the Bill. The principles 
of the Forest Management Act, an act passed in 194?, 
providing for the preparation and submission by an 
operator of a timber inventory and master plan of 
his cutting area, with a view to effecting more 
efficient management and advantageous utilization 
of the timber resources, have been carried forward in 
this Bill, and their application extended. 

The Forest Resources Regulation Act, an Act 
passed in 1936, also deals with forest management 
and those provisions of the Act which are not 
duplicated in The Forest Management Act are em- 
bodied in the Bill before you. 

The ptilpwood Conservation Act was passed 
in 1929 J and its provisions, similar to the Forest 


Management and the Forest Resources Regulation 
Act, are designed to achieve the cropping of timber 
on a sustained yield basis. In addition, it 
deals with the aspect of regeneration of the forests 
by providing for the establishment of nurseries for 
the production of trees and the distribution of 
these. This latter aspect is not dealt with in 
the Bill before you, but provision for the produc- 
tion of nursey stock and its distribution has been 
made in the new Forestry Act. I will be intro- 
ducing that Act a little later in this Session. 

The Mills Licensing Act, passed in 19^9^ 
provides for the classification of mills and the 
regulation of their productive capacity so that 
some degree of control may be exercised over the 
productive capacity in relation to the timber re- 
sources available. 

The Forestry Act, in large part, deals with 
timber on private lands. For instance, it permits 
of agreements being made with any person for the 
purposes of developing, reforesting, and managing 
private land for forestry purposes. This Act also 
provides for the appointment of the Advisory Com- 
mittee and this provision is embodied in the Bill. 
Other provisions relating to timber on private lands 
are embodied in the new Forestry Act, which will be 
introduced at this session. The new Forestry Act 
is a consolidation of various acts dealing with 
timber on private lands. 


The Provincial Forests Act sets aside seven 
areas throughout the Province as Provincial Forests 
and these have been continued In the Bill. (They 
are the Eastern Provincial Forest, the Tlmagaml 
Provincial Forest, the Mlsslssagi Provincial Forest, 
the Georgian Bay Provincial Forest, the Nlplgon 
Provincial Forest, the Wanapltei Provincial Forest 
and the Kawartha Provincial Forest). 

As discussion proceeds on this Act, I 
shall be glad to advise the hon. members Just where 
each section of the old Act appears in the new Bill, 
and in order that there may be an orderly discussion 
of it, it is proposed to refer the Bill to the 
Committee on Lands and Forests for review before it 
is brought back into the House to be dealt with in 

This Act is one of several consolidations 
of the 29 Statutes administered by the Department 
that will be dealt with in coming sessions. When 
the consolidation is completed, there should be 
four or five major Acts of the Department, dealing 
with Crown Timber, Forestry on private lands. Water- 
powers, Lands, Surveys and Wildlife. 

(Take "C" follows) 


MR. F. R. OLIVEl: (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Speaker, I think v/e all realize the importance of 
the Bill v/hich is now getting its second reading. This 
Bill v\,'ill go to the Lands and Forest Coraiiiittee and will 
be studied there and then returned to the House in the 
Comraittee of the V/hole House. The deliberations of the 
Lands and Forest Committee v/ill not restrict in any way, 
the contribution that any hon. member may wish to make 
to the various sections of the Bill when it is before 
the House in the Comraittee of the I'Jhole . 1 think we 
can say, Ivir. Speaker, in a broad sense, that we have had 
in the past, too many Acts, and too little action in 
regard to the preservation of our provincial forests. 
I believe the hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) will go along 
with me in this statement. I doubt if v/e are holding our 
ov/n insofar as preserving our forests is concerned. It is 
apparent that we will have to take drastic action if we 
wish to continue in perpetuity the forest wealth of the 
province of Ontario. There are some nev; sections in 
this particular Bill that rive the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Scott) and the government,, very wide powers in dealing 
v;ith this situation, and it will be our purpose and our 
duty to examine these new sections. 

In addition, they must have the ability to do 
the job that must be done for the forest wealth of this 
province and we will closely examine each section. I 


hope and trust the hon. Minister (Ivlr. Scott) will be 
able to rive us in the House, the fullest possible 
explanation as it {roes through the Conirrdttee stage. 

I'ilR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Speaker, 
as no one else on this side is rising on this question, 
and I notice the hon. Prime Minister (Ivlr. Frost) is 
ready to reply, I would like to say a few words before 
he does, V/ith all due regard to the fine work cf 
the Department of Lands and Forests and with all due 
regard and appreciation, of the efforts of the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Scott), I think it should be stated as a 
matter of policy, that the legislation before us 
constitutes a full retreat from the original position 
taken by the Conservative Government when it came into 
office in 1943. Hov; does it constitute a full retreat? 
Older hon. members in the House will recall, and every 
one in the province interested in this very important 
problem v/ill not have forgotten, the position taken by 
the Conservative Party then under the leadership of 
Ivlr. Drew. It was the intention of the Conservative 
Government v^rhen coming into pov/er, to establish a 
commission similar to the Hydro Commission to operate 
the forestry industry of the province, to be fully in 
charge of this treraendous natural resource of the 
province, its develoi:ment and perpetuity. That was the 


position of the Pcrty and of the Government. I still 
agree v/ith the original position as presented to the 
public and as expounded in this House, I think that was 
a correct and sound provision for the Governraent to make, 
because, in my opinion, only by such a method vlll we 
provide the basic requirements for the people of the 
province and the basic reguirsraents as I see them, and 
as outlined by the hon. idnister (lir. Scott) are: first, 
to £:uarantee a perpetual yield, not to allow the depletion 
of it, the reckless cutting of forosts but to provides 
as some E.-ropean countries have managed to do, an 
annual yield for centuries and centuries. Second, to 
guarantee that the province v\fill get the maximum of 
income from it. Thirdly, that the natural resources of 
the forest products v/ill be raanufactured, fabricated, to 
its final stage providing employment for more and more 
people. Those, iir. S-.eaker, as I see it, are the three 
main objectives v/e should have when dealing v/ith this 
important matter. 

The Government of the day not only presented 
this fundamental position in the House but introduced 
Legislation v/hich would carry it in the House for the 
establishment of a forestry commission. 

HON. LESLIii M. FROST (Prime I/Iinister ) : V/hich 
Government v/as that? 


IvIR. SALSBLkG: The Drew G-overnriient . I remind 
nevv' hon. members of the House lest they feel that I am 
picking on the Government, that I never do that. The 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) knows I never pick on 
the Government. I alvmys try to agree v;ith them and I 
am anxious to get opportunities to agree v/ith them. The 
Drew Government introduced such Legislation, I think, 
during the 1945 Session. If I am wrong in that, I 
will be corrected. I voted for that Legislation and it 
was carried, but it was never proclaimed and never put 
into operation. 

IvIR. FROST (Prime Liinister): Mr. Speaker, I 
have been here for many years and sitting constantly in 
the House, and I do not remember the commission legislation 
the hon, member (Mr. Salsberg) refers to. I think the 
hon. member {hiv. Salsberg) refers to the Advisory 
Committee Legislation v^hich was passed in this House 
and acted on by this Government. 

im. SALSBERG: No, I think I am correct. 

MR, FROST (Prime Minister): I think the hon. 
member (Mr. Salsberg) is living in a great mist; he does 
not know v/here he is going. 

I/IR. SALSB:^RG: Mr. Speaker, I am extremely 
sorry to have to say that if one of us, the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) or myself is living in a mist about 
this question, then, it is the hon. Prime Minister (Ivlr. Frost) 


In fact, I ara prepared to turn to the book which con- 
tains the Legislation adopted, at each Session and 
present that Bill which became an Act, 

Iffl. FROST (Prime uiinister ) : Hov.' many members 
were on the Comraission? 

IvIR. SALSBERG: A moment ago, you q.uestioned 
whether such a Bill v/as carried, and nov*- you are trying 
to wi{^gle out by asking the number on the Commission. 
You do not even remember a Bill v;as enacted but you 
ex^:ect me to remember hov/ many v/ere on the Comi^ission. 
If there was no Bill, there could not have been a 
Comi'aission; if there was a Commission and a number of 
members appointed, then there was a Bill. Mr. Speaker, 
there was a Bill, it v/as carried, but the Government 
chan{;.ed its mind. 

Iffi. i"ROST: ■/Vould the hon. member {LIr. Salsberg) 
tell me the section of this Bill? 

IvJR. SALSBEP.G: The hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) knov\/s he is asking the questions only to divert 
me from the main course, which I have no intention of 
doing. All I am concerned with at this moment, Mr. 
Speaker, is to approach this question from a fundamental 
point of view. Nov/, the Government of Ilr. Drev;, having 
piloted and carried that Legislation, turned its back'.OQ it, 
and instead of implementing a very important law which 
it had proposed and carried, it then "decided to appoint a 


nevi Commission to investifate the forest situation. 
It was hardly necessary but there v/as a Coranission and 
we have a very important report as a result of that 

That is all I wanted to say on this occasion. 
•he Bill before us would indicate the compleneas 
of the retreat of the Conservative Government on this 
very important forestry question. They seem to have 
put the seel of finality to a policy which is diametrically 
opposed to the original policy brought to the people of 
Ontario by the then leader of the Party, introduced in 

legislative form by the Government and now scrapped. 
We are now dealing with Legislation v/hich grants the 
ri£,ht to sell, lease and do all sorts of things. I have 
no quarrel vrith the Department, I have no quarrel with 
the hon. Minister (Mr. Scott), I think he is a very f ir t 
hon. Minister and I think his Department is an excellent 
Department, but I think the policy v/hich is embodied in 
this Bill, v/hich is Government responsibility and not 
departmental responsibility, is very bad policy. 

I am sorry that it should be necessary for me 
to say what I have said at this time. I would have 
been hap ier if v/e had before us Legislation which 
would fully embody the principles upon v/hich the Con- 
servative Party went to the people of Ontario, which 
v/as incorporated in Legislation. It has been scuttled and 


buried and no tombstone placed upon it. This is the 

im, J. S. DEL'iPSEY (Renfrew South): Mr. 
Speaker, I would like to say a word or two on this 
subject because I represent a riding where there are 
extensive lumbering operations. I have seen a lot of 
improvement since 1945, in fact, in my particular 
riding, there has be-n extensive improvement and I must 
give credit to this Governtuent and the previous Govern- 
ment who made the start on it, for 

what they have done for my particular section, I could 
refer to what we call the Pine Patent Act . That was • 
an Act passed in the last year, v/hereby the farmer ovms 
the pine that is on his land, and now he can go out and 
plant trees for himself. Previous to this Act, pine 
trees v/ere all reserved to the Crown. This has made 
a great improvement. There has been an improvciuent Lin 
the way of measuring logs. At one time, we had the 
old Doyle rule which was all right years ago, but to- 
day, our trees are not the same size as they used to 
be and the Doyle rule is just out of date. It v/as not 
a proper rule, and now we have changed it, 

I do not think we have been"scuttled"about 
anything, I think the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr, Salsberg) is talking about an enquiry into the 



situation at that particular time and I am looking for- 

Vi/ard to our going to go into an extensive tree - 

planting program. Perhaps we are behind a little, we 

cannot supply enough trees, but I have been talking to 

the hon. Minister (LIr. Scott) and he assured me we are 

going ahead. V7e could plant about tv;enty-flve million 

trees if we had them, and we are going to make a move 

to try and get them. I am well satisfied that there 

have been many Improvements to date in the Department 

of Lands and Forests. I feel I know a little more about 

these things than the hon, member for St. Andrew (Mr. 

Salsberg). He lives in the middle of this big city, 

while I live in the bush, so I should know more about 

it. I do not talk vary oft m, but I do like 

to get up and talk about something I knov; something 

about, y/hen I spoke to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost) 

to-day about the Pine Patent Act, he said we were going 

to get it, and I know we will get lots of trees because 

he is doing a good job. The people seem to be satisfied 

v/ith the v/ay things are going. 'iVe are here to do the 

people's business and if I do the business of iiy riding 

to the best of my ability, I am not afraid of an 

election. I think the last Government, from the look of 

things, must have done a good job, because they came 

back very strong. V/hen v/e start doing a bad job, we v.dll 

know about it. I do not think we can bollttlo those who are 


our Opposition because they have some very splendid 
felloviTS over there. I do feel that v/e must do a good 
job because after all, the people are the ones who send 
us here. There is no doubt about that. 

HON. -MR. FROST (Prime I.iinister): I^Ir. 
Speaker, in conclusion in connection v/ith this 
Bill, there v/as one point that struck me in what the 
hon. Leader of the Opposition (Hr. Oliver) said v/hen he 
expressed the view that perhaps we were not holding our 
own in connection v«;ith our forests, I think I can assure 
the hon. members that v/e have reached the stage in 
Ontario where v/e are holding our own. Of course, i 
realize that may be a debatable statement. It is very 
difficult to assert that all the mdlls and pulp-mills, 
v/ith our forests, are not receding and Going back. How- 
ever, I think I can say with a good deal of certainty 
that such is not the case, v/e have reached the point 
v.'here I think we can say v/e are definitely holding our 

I do not v/ant to be complacent about this 
problem, the Forestry problem is one of the largest 
problems in this province. There is no doubt about it, 
this is one of the principal problems v/e have to contend 
with. This deals with a 5reat natural resource upon 
which tens of thousands of citizens depend for their 



living. This is something which very vitally affects 
the v;hole economy of this province. Vv^e can say beyond 
any doubt that v/e have made tremendous progress, I 
think I can point out to tho hon. members that of all 
the forest areas in the province, I think all but 
one of them, are represented by Government members. 
After all, the people are now conscious of the forest 
problem and our people themselves have been insisting 
upon reforms. I think there must be a degree of 
satisfaction on the part of the people as to what is 
being done; otherwise, v/hat has taken place would not 
have taken place. I sat in this House, as did many other 
hon. members here, when the Government had no hon. 
members in northern Ontario or in the forest areas at 
all and to-day we have all of the hon. members, I think, 
save one. 

(Take "D" follows) 


I do not say that for the purpose of being complacent, 
I say that because I think it ladds onto the responsi- 
bility of the Government m-ore than ever the duty of 
going ahead v;ith an effort to find a solution to this 

I may say in response to the remark by the 
hon, member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) regarding 
a Commission managing lands and forests, that I, for 
once, have completely changed my views on that question, 
I do not say that what we are doing is complete; what 
we are doing is an advance, I am satisfied that you 
cannot appoint a Comjnission in this Province and give 
that Comm-ission charge of the life and being of hun- 
dreds of thousands of our citizens. 

The conception of the idea -- and I well 
remember it from some ten years ago -- was we would 
divorce the a dministration of lands and forests from 
politics, particularly petty politics, I do not think 
in this Legislature we can delegate to a Commission, 
which is not responsible to the people, the life and 
being of hundreds of thousands of our citizens. 

I quite agree with the findings of the Kennedy 
Report in that regard, and it was with that in view 
that the Hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr, Scott) 
and the Government went ahead with the recommendations 




in that report for the appointment of an Advisory 
Council which was to assure continuity of policy. If 
there was any merit in the Commission idea, of course, 
it would be that it would provide for continuity of 
policy over the years, to prevent further changes and 
alterations which have worked to the detriment of the 
conservation of our forests over many years, 

1 think we have faced up to that problem, and 
with the appointment of the i^dvisory Council, and the 
appointm.ent of General Kennedy as a consultant, we 
have substantially met that problem, and at the same 
time, we have kept the administration of our forests 
where, in the end, they have to be, that is, in the 
hands of the elected representatives of the people, 

I think we can feel we have made in the last 
few years tremendous advances, and that in no way are 
we in retreat. The fact is, we are in full march 
ahead. I am satisfied that the next few years will 
show very great advances indeed in all the complex 
matters relating to forest policy, whether it be 
control of insects, control of fire, reforestation, 
forest management, cutting in perpetuity, the sustained 
yield, and so forth. I feel the people of this Province 
are confident that is what is being done. 


The Act introduced by the Hon, Minister of 
Lands and Forests (Mr, Scott) impleraents the consolida- 
tion recomriended by the Department, and recommended by 
the Kennedy Report, The idea is, that instead of 
having a multiplicity of Acts, to have one principal 
Act, consolidating the various forestry provisions, 

V/hen that goes to the Committee, the Committee 
members will have a full opportunity to go over every 
section and consider it, and make sure that the problem 
is covered in a manner which they feel is in the best 
interests of the Province, 

1^. SALSBERG: Fr, Speaker, just for the 
record, in view of the question raised about the Bill, 
may I draw the attention of the Hon, Prime Minister to 
the fact that the legislation referred to is to be 
found on Pages 262 and 263 of the Statutes for 1944, 
where the establishment of a Commission and its duties 
were clearly set out. 

HON. GEORGE H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal 
Affairs): That has been am.ended since. 


MR. L. M. FROST: That was a Commission of 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, 



CLERK 0? THE HOUSi:.: 11th Order, resuming the 
adjourned Debate on the amendnent to the amendment to 
the motion for an Address in Reply to the Speech of 
the Hon. the Lieutenant-Governor at the opening of 
the Session, Mr, Frost, 

1®. G. G. GORDON (Brantford): Mr. Speaker, 
in looking over the new plan which has been placed 
before us, I do not think the various parties have 
been given their proper colours. In Great Britain, 
the colours for the parties are, blue for the Conser- 
vatives, yellow for the Liberals, and red for Labour 
or the Socialist Party. Here we have the Conservative 
Party in blue, the Liberals are an anaemic red, our 
C.C.F. hon, members are encased in green, and the hon, 
member who should really have a colour, has no colour 
at all. As we all know, the colour for the Labour 
Progressive Party should be red, 

l!bc. Speaker, I am going to speak on a matter 
upon which I have spoken in previous sessions, and 
while some of it will probably be repetition, I have 
something new to add, which I xvill come to a little 

I saw by the papers recently that Toronto is 


considering the chlorinating of its water supply as 
is also ''Jindsor, Hamilton, and many other cities. I 
would like to point out that Brantford was the pioneer 
in this experiment, the only city in the Commonwealth 
to start chlorinating its water supply. That was done 
seven years ago. Great credit for that is due to our 
local Medical Officer of Health, and the then City 
Council, and the P.U.C. which was in office at that 

At the sixth annual survey of this experiment, 
the result was presented to the Fluorine Committee, of 
Which I have the honour to be Chairman, and it was shown 
there has been a 36% improvement in the dejltal health 
of our children. This is very encouraging, and we 
have had inquiries from all over Canada and from many 
other countries. There is a delegation from England 
in '.'Washington at the present time, which is coming to 
Brantford this month to discuss it with our Medical 
Officer of Health, and to see v;hat has been accomplished. 

There is, however, some confusion amongst the 
Toronto papers in connection with our experiment. May 
I be permitted to quote from an editorial from t he 
Brantford Expositor of a few days ago. It is headed 
"Toronto Paper Confused", and it says: 


"The absurd leiagths to which it is possible 

to carry an argument against something one does 
not favour are shown by an editorial in yester- 
day's Globe and Mail. 

Referring to the fact that a proposal to 
fluoridate Toronto's wciter supply, just as 
Brantford's has been fluoridated for nearly 
seven years, has won the support of the Toronto 
Board of Health, The Globe and liail says the 
scheme still has to get the backing of the 
City Council and the Provincial Government, 
As to the Government, Brantford's e:.perience 
should afford reassurance. 

'The. arguments fcr it (fluoridation) are 
familiar, ' continues the Toronto editorial 
writer — and then goes on to show that they 
are not at all familiar to himi For instance, 
he says that after five (it should be seven) 
years of fluoridation, 'the 'guinea-pig' city 
of Canada' (that's rich, coming from a place 
often irreverently referred to as 'Hog Town' J) 
finds that the number of children with perfect 
teeth has increased 10 per cent. ■'7ell, he is 
wrong there to the extent that the correct 
figure is 16 per cent. Then he attempts to 
disparage fluoridation by saying that the 
Brantford results are only 'interim' and that 
the final score will not be known until 1955. 
As to that, no matter how cautiously scientific 
we may be in Brantford, the United States Public 
Health Service, the American Medical Association 
and the American Dental Association to name 
three substantial bodies, already consider 
fluoridation a success in the matter of com- 
bating tooth decay in children. 

Attempting to bolster a flimsy case against 
fluoridation The Globe and M?.il claims that it . 
is not merely a m-atter of cost, but also of 
most of the cost being sheer waste. How is 
that? Fluoridated watti- it is pointed out, 
has no significance unless taken internally, 
and only a tiny fraction of Toronto's water 
supply is taken internally, the rest being 
used for spraying lawns, washing cars, hosing 


streets and for a v;ide variety of industrial 
purposes. Acceptin?^ that, what says our con- 
temporary as to chlorination of Toronto's 
water supply? That is carried on constantly, 
at considerable expense, yet only a tiny 
fraction of Toronto's chlorinated water is 
taken internally! Is it any less wasteful 
than fluoridating would be? Does The Globe 
and Llail suggest, on grounds of economy, that 
chlorination should be discontinued because 
chlorinated water is not essential to the 
spraying of lawns, the washing of cars and 
so forth?" 

I will not read any further, Mr. Speaker, but it states 

that this will probably harm industry. May I say, Mr. 

Speaker, that no firm in Brantford, or any American 

city where the experiment has been tried, has had to 

shut up shop. Even the photographers have continued 

to do business as usual. 

Mr, Speaker, I come now to something which 

I have referred to as being new, V'e are concerned 

in Brantford about the dental health of our children 

in Brant County who do not have the opportunity of 

using Brantford City water, I can remember on one 

occasion when the hon. member for Brant (Mr, Nixon) 

said he was glad he did not have to use Brantford 

City water, but our iledical Officer of Health, and 

the Brant County Health Unit have fJLans, which, if 

adopted, will improve the health of the teeth of 

our children in Brant County by forty percent, and 


we are most anxious that a start be made, 

I will quote from an article showing what is 
being done and has been done across the Border, and 
what they have done, we can do in Brantford, as we 
were the pioneers in the chlorinating of our water 
supply, and we would like to be the pioneers in the 
practical application of fluorine. 

This is an article by Doctor V/, C, Hutton, 
of Brantford, in which he says: 

(Page D-9 follows) 


" 'Little can be accoraplished for grown 
up people; the intelligent .nan begins with 
the child. ♦ Goethe" 

" Better Teeth for Children Throu;:<h Sodium Fluoride 

by John Y/. Knutson, Chief, 
Division of Dental ^ublic Health 
Public Health Service, Federal Security A^:ency 

Nev; dental decay can be reduced some 40 
percent by applying a colorless, almost tasteless 
liq^uid to the teeth of youngsters. The discovery 
that this liq_uid v/ill aid in preventing dec'ay 
has been hailed as one of the most important 
advances in preventive dentistry. Because of 
it, today's children have the opportunity to 
have far better teeth than their parents. 

The liquid, a 2 rercent solution of sodium 
fluoride, can be applied by your dentist or 
through comiaunity-v\^ide fluoride programs that 
v/ill bring the benefits of the anti-decay 
mixture to all children. 

The importance of sodium fluoride appli- 
cations to the health of children becomes 
obvious when it is realized that 35 percent 
of the children entering the nation's schools 
have one or more decayed periiianent teeth, 
that 75 percent of the children in this country 
have lost one or more permanent teeth by the 
time they reach sixteen, and that dental decay 
is developing in children 4 to 5 times faster 
than it is being controlled. 

The preventive measure, based on more than 
eight years of laboratory research and clinical 



tes'cs has been widely endorsed. The American 
Dental Association says: "Fluoride therapy 
should be used routinely in T)rivate dental 
offices and in school and com unity health 
programs. The National Congress of Parents 
and Teachers states: 'V.'e feel that sodium 
fluoride applications should be made available 
to all the children of America. ' And the 
Dental Health Section of the American Public 
Health Association says: 'The section goes 
on record as endorsing and encouraging ^\^q 
development of efi'ective methods for making 
this Service availalale to children. 

Establis:ii::ent of community-v^fide fluoride 
programs is the primary objective of the 
National Sodium Fluoride Demonstration Program. 
This is a program for demonstrating the 
application technic and for assisting communities 
in the development of their own topical 
fluoride programs. 

The demonstretions are conducted in schools 
by U.S. Public Health Service personnel under 
the immediate supervision of State Health 
Departments, State and local dental societies, 
and coniraunity organizations cooperate in 
helping to ensure the success of the demon- 

Schools and PTA's have contributed 
imraeasurably to the effectiveness of the 
sodium fluoride demonstration program which 
is operating in 39 States and territories 
and the District of Columbia. So far the 
demonstrations have been conducted in more 
than 500 communities. 


A se ies of four applications of the sodium 
fluoride solution should be made at each of 
the following ages: 3, 7, 10, and '13. Hoivever, 
these ages might very somewhat , depending on the 
tooth eruption pattern of the individual child. 
The applications are best made at those ages 
so that new permanent teeth can be protected 
as they come in. But regardless of age, 
every child should receive the first series of 
four applications. Additional applications 
will protect new teeth as they erupt. Because 
of the need for periodic applications, continuing 
community fluoride programs are essential if 
children are to reap the fullest possible 
benefit from the preventive. 

In developing fluoride programs that will 
bring the preventive measure to all children, 
many coimv.unities will want to plan a '^rogram 
consisting of six basic services: 1) inspection 
of the child's teeth to determine his need for 
dental care; 2) applications of sodium fluoride 
to the child's teeth to reduce the development 
of new decay; 3) referral of the child needing 
dental care to dentists; 4) care for children 
\Yhose parents are unable to pay for dental 
services; 5) dissemination of information on 
how the dental health of children can be improved; 
6) follov/-up services. 

Such programs will, of course, need to be 
closely integrated with the over-all health 
program of the community. But their success 
is largely dependent upon the active partici- 
pation of the schools, for in the vast 
majority of instances the inspections, appli- 
cations, referrals, educational work, and 
follow-up can best be done in the schools. 


It should be remembered that fluoride 
applications are not 100 percent effective in 
reducing nev/ dantal decay. They are 40 pere^ent 
effective. The child should contine to visit 
his dentist at periodic Intervals, brush his 
teeth regularly, and eat less sv/eets. V/ith the 
cooperation of school te-.-chers, the child can 
be encouraged to take these three important 
steps to improved §ental health. Indeed, the 
teacher can make a considerable contribution 
to the health of her pupils by explaining to 
them the need for these simple and fundamental 

Community fluoride programs of this kind will 
mean less absences from school due to illnesses, 
for less tooth decay will result in less infection, 

better chewing, and better digestion. There 
will be less facial disfigurement, and, therefore, 
the emotional adjustment of the child Vifill be 
made easier. Such programs will mean an economic 
savings to parents and to the comraunity because 
eventually less teeth v/ill need to be filled, 
extracted and replaced. 

In establishing a fluoride program, the 
community does more than provide six basic 
services. It also provides in those six 
services the nucleous for an expanding and more 
comprehensive comiuunity-v/ide dental health 
program. This broader and more complete program 
viill, in many instances, grow out of well 
organized and operated fluoride programs. 
It v/ill include -- in ado.ition to provisions 
for inspections, application, referral, care 
for the needy, education, and follow-up — 
services that v/iil aid in curbing the use of 
refined sugars and in promoting better oral 
hygiene. This broader program v/ill also 


provide for periodic appraisals vath a view 
to increasing the effectiveness of all dental 
health services so that they mil meet the needs 
of the community. 

The health of the individual child is not 
only the concern of the individual parent and 
teacher; it is also the concern of the entire 
comr.unity. If its children are healthy, mentally 
and physically prepared for life, the whole 
comiiiunity benefits. Community fluoride and dental 
health programs are parts of a sound community 
health program. They can be made potent aids 
for improving the health of children." 

(Page D-14 follo\'/s) 


I will now quote from a paper entitled, 

"Sodium Fluoride Goes to School", showing what has 

been done. It says: 

"I'Then the children entered the schoolroom 
they were just a little nervous. There was 
Johnny, tow-headed, freckled, and noisy, now 
suddenly very quiet, his fingers on both hands 
crossed. There was Mary, big-eyed, and 
giggling at the boy ahead of her. 

They sat down in the back of the room 
with 20 other children and waited, looking 
at the dental chairs facing the windows in 
front. First, Johnny climbed in the chair. 
The dentist leaned over, inspected his teeth, 
passed him on to the next chair. A young 
woman told him to hold his head back, then 
cleaned his teeth. It tasted good. Next 
she put cotton rolls around his teeth, dried 
and swabbed them with a clear, odorless 
liquid. He couldn't taste it and it didn't 
seem to hurt. 

Johnny waited with his mouth open until 
the stuff dried. Turning his head awkwardly, 
he noticed that the other chairs had filled 
up, Mary v;as having her teeth inspected and 
another girl was getting her teeth cleaned. 
It was a little like an assembly line; First 
the inspection, then the cleaning and drying, 
then the application, and finally another 
drying. They were working quickly. The 
whole thing, Johnny guessed, would take little 
more than 10 minutes. 

Then the young woman removed the cotton 
rolls from his mouth. Gcsh, it felt good 
to be out of the room. He went back to 
class, whistling softly to himself. They'd 
said the liquid would give him better, stronger 
teeth. That he would not have as many cavities 
and toothaches. 

That morning and afternoon hundreds of 
other children in many schools throughout the 

'J I, 

• m ■ 

.-.jJ ;"-■■>-.■, .) 


country received the same kind of inspections 
and applications John had. In a single month, 
probably more than thirty thousand children 
would climb into dental chairs. Then their 
teeth would be inspected, cleaned, and given 
applications of the stuff that looked and 
tasted a little like water. In a year close 
to a half million children in hundreds of 
schools would have the antidecay mixture 
swabbed on their teeth. 

Probably none of the youngsters thought 
very much about it, but they were partici- 
pating in a demonstration conducted by a 
Public Health Service team under the immediate 
supervision of their State health department. 
The demonstration was on ways to reduce dental 
decay through the use of a new, almost revolu- 
tionary discovery. This discovery, the clear, 
odorless stuff the young woman had had in a 
small glass by her side, will reduce new 
dental decay by about 40 percent," 

Mr. Speaker, I said in my remarks that 
we have a plan in Brantford which will do for the 
children in Brant County just what it has done for the 
children I h^ive referred to in the quotations which I 
have read. 

V7e are anxious to start this program. 
Our Kedical Officer of Health and the Brant Health 
Unit are coming to Toronto to discuss with our genial 
and efficient Hon. Minister of Health (Mr. Phillips) 
this problem, and I know he will give it his usual 
careful consideration. 

I would like to say just a few words 
about housing, as it affects my riding. Many of the 


hon, members have spoken on this from different angles, 
but it may be that I may have a new angle on this 

Our local radio station, CKBC, devoted 
a half -hour program each vfeek to topics of local and 
national interest. This program is called, "Let's 
Talk It Over". The local branch of the Council of 
Women were asked to take this half-hour program on 
one occasion, and they gave it the title, "Brantford's 
Greatest Needs", 

After the ladies had discussed what was 
Brantford's greatest need, they finally came to a 
decision that the most pressing problem for a great 
many of the citizens was the lack of housing, that is, 
low-rental housing. During the discussion it was pointed 
out that families were being separated, homes were being 
broken, and children were not receiving proper home 

In Brantford we have a temporary housing 
unit, that is, it was temporary when it was opened 
six years ago, and the conditions there are very, very 
poor, and greatly deteriorated, and in that section 
there are I50 families. 

There is a sentence in the Speech from 
the Throne which states: 


"The capacity of our people to build and 
to own their own homes is not equal to 
the demands upon them to provide the 
initial financing," 

(Take "E" 


Now, Mr^ Speaker J it appears to me 
that whenever we speak of housing it is all in the 
terms of buying a house or selling a house. What 
about the thousands of people who will never be able 
to buy a house? It is impossible for them to start 
to buy a house . We all know of breadwinners who 
are working for $40 or $45 a month. It is im- 
possible for these men to ever be in a position to 
buy a house, and it is for these that we should have 
a start on low rental housing. 

In a report of the Ontario Command, Housing 
Committee of the Canadian Legion Saturday, Mr. Ray 
Mann is quoted as saying -- and he is chairman of 
the Housing Committee -- 

"That the costs to governments in 
social services arising from poor 
housing conditions ran close to $100 
million. ■ 

'If this figure alone were applied 
to alleviating the housing condition', he 
commented, 'we'd have done a great deal 
toward getting rid of a disgrace to the 
society we boast of.'" 

Low rental housing can only come on a 

government level, and a start will have to be made 

to provide housing for these people who will never 

be able to buy a house but will always have to rent. 

As I said a few minutes ago, in my community alone, 

in my riding, which is small compared to some of the 

others, where I50 families are living in conditions 

which are very poor, they will have to find another 

place of residence in the near future and where they 

will go, nobody knows. 


I have a letter here received from one 

of our local industrial firms and the International 

Association of Machinists. They asked me to bring 

this to the attention of the Government and I always 

do what I am told. 

"Dear Sir: 

During our renegotiation discussions 
with Lod^e No. 1105 of the International 
Association of Machinists a request was 
made from this Lodge as follows: 

'That any member of this Lodge while 
employed . . . and who is subject to this 
agreement, while servini as a Juror in any 
court of law shall be paid by . . . the 
difference between his financial compen- 
sation as a juror and the regular wages 
he would receive if at work. This to 
apply only to service on Jury on regular 
working days as outlined in present 
agreement, and also onlj* when the com- 
pensation as a Juror is less than his wages 
for such days of work. ' 

"It was mutually agreed this question 
should be respectfully brought to your 
attention as it was felt the Government 
of Ontario would not knowingly cause em- 
ployment at a rate less than prevailing. 
Our Lodge would appreciate your advising 
if the rates in question could be changed 
to meet existing conditions." 

I might enlarge on that somewhat by saying 
that a similar situation exists in connection with wit- 
nesses. I have had two or three men speak to me -- 
one particularly -- who said that in two weeks he did 
not have a full day's pay from his factory because he 
had been called as a witness and he said: "Prom here 
on when I witness anything I am going to look the 
other way." I do not think that is a very good 
situation to be in, where men will not assume their 
responsibilities because of conditions existing like 




The hon. member for London (Mr. Robarts) 

in his very fine address to this House said that he 

was very much concerned about the accidents and the 

increase in accidents on our highways and rightly 

so. Now, this letter was sent to me as a member 

of the Legislature: 

"Dear Sir: 

"As Member of the Provincial Legisla- 
ture, I thought you might be interested 
in the following case, which to my mind 
reveals a glaring inconsistency in the 
Highway Traffic Act. 

"I was driving east on Colborne Street, 
in this city, at approximately eighteen to 
twenty miles per hour, when without warn- 
ing a farm tractor drove out of a 'stop' 
street without even a pause and collided 
with the side of my car, causing damage 
to the extent of $270. Before the driver 
of the tractor was able to stop his machine 
he had pushed my car around and was push- 
ing it up Colborne Street for a distance 
of twenty feet. 

"The driver told the Police Officer 
that he simply became confused and didn't 
know what to do. He also told him that 
he had not had a driver's licence for 
years and years. Of course no licence 
plates were attached to the farm tractor. 
The same driver had previously lost con- 
trol of a farm tractor on another occasion. 

"Do you not think that the Act should 
be amended, and that Farm Tractors when 
driven on city streets or highways should 
be driven only by fully competent and 
licensed drivers?" 

I think that is something that the De- 
partment could give consideration to. 

I will Just say a few words more, 
and that is in connection with some of our unfortu- 
nate citizens, our old age oensionors, v^ho have no 
other income but the $4o a month they receive as old- 



age pension. We all know that It is absolutely 
Impossible for an old man or an old lady to live on 
$40 a month; In fact, they do not live, they just 
exist. At Christmas time they do get an extra 
hamper probably, but during the year it is absolutely 
impossible for those old people to live on $40 a 
month . 

I believe under the present taxation 
arrangement this Government is saving money, and 
surely this rich Province can afford a supplementary 
amount of at least $10 to these most unfortunate 
people . 

(page E-5 follows) 



L/IR, ..F. Lili^YINE ( "atorloo North): IVIr. Spoakor, 
I think it proper that a nowcomor should pay tribute 
to His Excellency Governor 1/Villiams of Michigan vftio 
has contributed so much to the furtherance of the 
good-neighbour policy and to the consoli'-^ation of the 
North ^imerlcan Continent. It has always boon intriguing 
as to how, in a many member chamber, one obtained the 
eye of the speaker? Happily, I knov; the ansv;or is not 
the notice inscribed on brasc on the front door. One 
gets in by "pull" and out by "push". In addition, one 
wonders - how the debate on the " Speech from the Throne'', 
having been initiated, how it can be terminated? Frankly, 
it would seem the lot of a back bencher could be one of 
considerable monotony unless this is an ideal device 
to release one's inhibitions, and, from the many ideas, 
there may be some Gem worthy of adoption by the govern- 
ment. Based on a session of ten weeks and a five-day 
week, and allowing the governmant and official leader 
the bulk of the time, it would seem that a private 
member should have 40 or 50 minutes to participate 
in debate and advance his ideas, and when a private 
member exceeds that time he is infringing on the right 
of some other member, 

VVhilo some of us may be parochial as to training, 
may I point out that if we are to improve hioman 
understanding, we cannot do so by detracting from any 
portion of the Province or any sector of the population, 
but only by an understanding of the problems of each 


In common vdth all thinking people, I regret the 
tragedy that has overtaken the Comtionwealth, in the 
death of the King. ViJe can go forward strong in the 
faith that a new and groat Elizabethan age is in the 
making. May I say of the Governmont — if I had not 
thoiight they had a case to present, I would not have 
beon a candidate. 

To add years to life and life to years, I am sure 
we can all align ourselves in support of the provision 
of pensions for the totally disabled. Great as 
pensions for the aged, mothers* allov/ance, pensions 
for the blind and children's allowances are, this 
rounds out and rationalizes our social legislati on. 
I would iirge all possible speed in its translation to 
operation. To those v.'ho are critical of the amount, 
may I say — one must start somewhere, and the sum 
is not the defect. The defect is inflation, and all 
of our efforts will come to naught unless we overcome 
that problem, I for one refuse to believe that hiiman 
ingenuity cannot solve the riddle of inflation. 

The housing situation is one of concern. The 
Land Assembly Plan of last year is to be commended, 
and I welcome the statement of the hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) that some solution should be found for 
rental purchase, I am in complete accord with making 
housing readily available to rural and village communit- 
ies, but also in the cities of Kitchener and Waterloo 
the feeling is "the second mortgage principle should 
be reintroduced". Unless a better idea is produced 

].: :'i . 


I am in favor of its re-introduction. This is based 
on the fact that my coimii\inities are essentially home 
owning communities and wg find it adds much to the grace 
of living. 

A few years ago an appropriation was made to 
study the possibility of using new materials and new 
techniques in the production of better and cheaper 
homes, I would appreciate information as to the results 
of that endeavour, which at the time seemed laudable. 

While conservation has not been mentioned in 
the "Speech from the Throne", I think we, in the valley 
of the grand, take it for granted that the Province 
is still prepared to implement the tentative agreement 
as to the Conestogo Dam, 

Happily, the Grand Valley represents 8 to 10?S 
of the population of the Province, and in industrial 
importance they far exceed their percentage. The 
municipalities are conservation conscious and so 
are the individual citizens, I am deluged with 
requests from citizens as to what they can do in 
this service. I know that the agricultural repres- 
entatives are overworked, but it does seem desirable 
that they have listed lands that are available for 
such a purpose, not with the idea of taking the place 
of the realtor or conveyancer, but with the idea of 
speeding up the worthy effort — "the fields are ripe 
unto the harvest". 

Municipal finances continue to be a problem of 
insistent concern, Vie are all too prone to be fast 



In thG croation of expense, providing someone else 
pays the bill. I hall the appointment last year of 
the Committoe on Provincial Municipal Relations = It 
would seem that after mor o then one hundred years a 
major revision is in order. The problem is urgont, 
and if it had not been for the action of the Provincial 
Government it would be intolerable. The citizens 
know full well tlieir obligation to the Federal and 
Provincial Governments, and it may well be that as 
citizens of a municipality they could only earn bread 
and butter, but with the aid of Provincial and Federal 
Governments they can also earn jam and cake. The cake 
and jam are taken away in income taxes. I readily 
agree that income taxes are the fairest of all taxes 
but I submit a proportion of those taxes should be 
returned to the municipality where they are earned — 
returned in increasing amounts Therefore the Province 
on behalf of its component municipalities has an 
obligation to continue their endeavour of bringing 
this to a successful conclusion. In the interval some 
added form of relief is in order. 

I have noticed with some concern that the city 
of Toronto considers they have some special problems. 
They have my sympathy — but are there any municipalities 
without special problems, such as education, welfare, 
relief, hospital costs and roads? I do think that any 
level of government should pay taxes on property owned 
within another municipality — that is as far as I can 
go with regard to Toronto. May I point out that Toronto 


is Toronto because it Is the capital of the Province. 
If they have problems they also have benefits and I 
doubt as to whether any other city in the Province 
would not be pleased to be similarly situated. 
There is a lesson for the Government in this, that 
in decentralization there are many activities that of 
necessity do not have to be situated in Toronto, so 
a zoned distribution of public buildings and services 
across the Province is desirable. 

The major problem in municipal finance again 
is inflation. The Province or Municipality are in 
no way responsible for our monetary policy and that is 
another reason as to why a portion of income taxes 
should be returned where they are earned. 

The problem of highways ,like that of the poor» 
is always vjith us. I would recommend to the Govornment 
the early completion of the unfinished portion of the 
dual HighVi/ay No. 8 between Kitchener and Preston. No, 
7 Highway has a serious defect from the south westerly 
portion of Kitchener to that portion within the Township 
of Waterloo, Traffic would bo facilitated and tempers 
spared if the projected connecting link wore completed. 
The nev^ly initiated highway from V/indsor to the environs 
of Toronto should be built not only on sound engineering 
but the practical service to the greatest number. This 
Vi/ould not be the case if the rumoured route were follovi?ed. 
I can with ease support the contentions of the hon, 
member for South Cochrane (Mr. Griommett) for more rigid 
enforcement of traffic laws. I commend the hon. Minister 


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of Reform Institutions. Rehabilitation is the slogan 
of all worth-while endeavour, and I am sure the hon, 
member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) will admit - there 
is a place, admittedly small, and v^ith proper safe- 
guards, for corporal punishment, 

I am- pleased with the statement of the hon. 
Minister of Health. I do not know as to whether the 
Board of Health of the City of Kitchener were first 
in their recommendation of Detention Wards, but if 
not first, we were very early. I would suggest that 
if he goes back through the files of his Department, 
he will find a request - sponsored by myself some five 
or six years ago, asking for a regional psychiatrist. 
That is a must in any considerable community in this age 
of stress and strain. 

The hon. Minister of Welfare will discover that 
if reasonable generosity is in vogue, the broad family 
of rheumatism will be common in the list of those 
totally disabled. I would suggest to the hon. Minister 
of Health that this disease which not only impairs health 
but undermines our economy should be the subject of 
Provincial Research. V/ith regard to tuberculosis, 
with our fine personnel and sanatoria we are well 
equipped, but peculiarly the mortality rate throughout 
the world seems to be falling even where they are not 
as fortunate as we ar . The feared problem in the 
immigrant is the new strain infection to which our 
people have no immunity. 

x*s an integrated agricultural and industrial 



community wg welcome any action aimed at improving the 
Workmen's Compensation *.ct. This will not be easy, for 
it is already the best in the world but it does seem an 
increase in pensions for widov;s is very much in order. 

The orphan of all governments is civil defense, 
I admit standardization of fire couplings is a major 
and creditable advance and now we will have sirens for 
far too few. It pas es human understanding as to why 
if large commitments are in order for the defense of 
Europe and -timerica. No attention is given to the source 
of all supplies. 

On March 7, 195£ I had occasion to visit the fine 
villa^^e of vJellesley, population 550, I was shown a 
fire hall constructed by voluntary help, and an 
excellent piece of work. It has the first drier for 
hose of any small municipality no longer requiring a 
tower. This was accomplished with a grant of some 
;ip£600 from the Province and a cost of ^1700 to the village, 
plus their labour. This is grand and desirable for the 
protection of the village and for defence, and I am in 
favour of it but the sum granted to the village of 
Wellesley is deducted from the grant to the Township 
of V'/ellesley and this should not be so. I hope it will 
be corrected. 

The handling of the foot and mouth disease 
epidemic is not all that could be desired. Slaughter 
of the animals at a time when protein is in short supply 
probably is in order, but if all humans with virus 
infection were killed there would be no humans left. 

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vVe began with a contaminatod farm and infected cattle. 
V/hy was not some experimental work done on the curative 
angle? I notice we have a research department at 
O..X.C. I dare say we could offer to lend them to 
Saskatchov/an. Spond some money on antibiotics and 
a new and glorious phase may be added to Canadian 

IVIr, Speaker, I still believe that a clock should 
function rather than a calendar. 

(Take ? follows) 




iviR. W. K. V/AK-ISNDER (Hamilton Centre): 
Speaker, at this time I rise to say a few words on the 
Throne Debate feeling that perhaps there may be some 
contribution which v;ill be helpful to the- Government. 
iviay I say at the outset that I am very proud to represent 
the riding of Hamilton Centre, a riding which I think 
everyone v/ill agree, is the most important riding of 
the province of Ontario, 

Last November 22, this Government was returned 
V'fith such an overwhelming majority and I think because 
of the large numbers v/e have here that we must be 
exceedingly careful, even more cautious than usual, 
because there is a weak Opposition. I mean that numeri- 
cally, of course. There is a weak Opposition, and 
therefore, we should proceed with even greater caution 
than perhaps has been done in the past. V/ith a strong 
Opposition, the Legislation is watched very carefully 
by Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. I think perhaps the 
results in favour of the Progressive-Conservative Party 
were favourable tv/o-fold because of the personality, 
the integrity, the leadership and ability of our hon. 
Prime Minister (ivlr. Frost). Secondly, because of the 
confusion and chaos which was interjected into the 
campaign by the leader of the Liberal Party. This man, 
I understand, would have liked to be known as the hon. 

member W. Thomson, Q,,C,, V.L.A. 



New, I understand he is satisfied to be knovm as 
llr. V/. C. Thomson, Q.C., V.L.A. The V.L.A., I under- 
stand, stands for the Veterans' Land Act. 

The mover of the Adc'ress in reply to the 
Speech from the Throne said a v/ord about the Socialist 
doctrine and I v/ish to go along with him when he said 
in effect that the doctrine is unsound. During the last 
few campaigns in and around Hamilton, and, I think, it 
is true generally speaking, around the province, the 
C.C.-f. Socialists were v/ont to spread the propaganda 
that socialism had proved itself in New Zealand, 
Australia and the United Kingdom. After a fev: years 
of fair trial in New Zealan'^ , Australia and the United 
Kingdom, the record speaks for Itself. New Zealand put 
the Socialists out of povrer, having had enough of them. 
Australia kicked them out of power because they too had 
had sufficient of that doctrine. Latterly, as Yse know, 
it is on the record, the United Kingdom once more 
returned the doughty warrior, Rt, Hon. Winston Churchill, 
to get them, out of their economic chaos, just as they 
turned to him in the Second ijorld '/ar to get them 
out of their military chaos and to bring them to 
victory. He is getting them out. That is on the record 
every day. 

As for the Cor.n.iunists , the other Party 
represented in this House J may I say I think all 


Comrtunists should be disfranchised and I say that 
because, if they v/ere, they would not be q_ualified to 
run for any office. IVhile they in a sense hold them- 
selves out as representing the people , .as. was 
mentioned by the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko) 
the percentage of persons they think they represent is 
so small, that surely they need no representation at 
all. Others can give the good government this province 

The Communists have a habit, and I know from 
experience because of my days on the Hamilton City 
Council, of using whatever Chamber they happen to be 
in, for a sounding board for their propaganda. That is 
true right here in this House, as has been evidenced 
in the last few days. I think it is unfortunate that 
even one person should be in that position, and I think 
all of them should be disfranchised. 

The Communists often hold themselves 
out as representing Labour, and recently a letter was 
issued, dated February 12th, signed by the hon. member 
for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg). It is addressed to 
the Ontario F'-deration of Labour, to all Trades and 
labour Councils in Ontario, to all officers and members 
of local unions. This letter had to do with compulsory 
arbitration and the intention was to stir up all the 


labour unions to come to the support of this hon. • 

member (Mr. Salsberg) in the hope they could walk up 

to the government and demand that no action be taken 

so far as compulsory arbitration is concerned. The 

letter states: 

"The danger of compulsory arbitration legislation 
in Ontario is very real. Big business and the 
reactionary press are clamoring for such lav/s," 

May I stop there to say that the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) made it clear last week that the 
Government has no intention of introducing compulsory 
arbitration legislation at this or any other time. I 
think he Biade it clear that negotiations had been 
developing, between management and labour v/hich is more 
desirable, and with that I agree. The point I wish to 
make here is that there is a definite statement by the 
hon. member referred to (Mr. Salsberg) that the danger 
of compulsory arbitration legislation is very real, when 
we have already had it said, it is not real at all. 

im. J. B. SALSBERG: :raen did the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr, Frost) make his statement? 

IvjR. l/VARRENDER : If the hon. member wishes to 
speak afterwards, he may do so, but I am making state- 
ments now and I did not interrupt him when he was 
speaking. He feels obliged at every opportunity to speak. 
I am speaking only occasionally, not out of proportion 


to our numbers. The letter goes on to say: 

"Both the T.L.C. and C.C.L, Provincial 
F:-derations have gone on record in opposition 
to such compulsory arbitration. But I have 
reason to know that despite the resolutions 
adopted by both Federations, the anti-labour 
legislation actually is being framed — " 

Now, that is untrue and it is another 
evidence, ¥ir. Speaker, of what I am saying. 

i.IR. SALSBEEG: Ivlr. Speaker, on a point of 
order, I do not think an hon. member is allowed, 
according to the rules of the House, to label a state- 
ment of any hon. member as "untrue." I suggest that it is 
unparliamentary, aside from the fact that he has no way 
of proving that the stateni'nts I made at the time are 
either true or false, I made a statement, and I stand 
by that statement and certainly the hon. member (I'^, 
V/arrender) has no right to say it is untrue. 

Lffi. V'/ARRE]MDEE : May I say in reply to that 
that the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) made the definite 
statement that this legislation was now being ft-amed, was 
actually being framed. Those are his exact words and 
I have, to prove this is untrue, the statement of the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) when he said that no 
such legislation is in contemplation by the Government, 

MR. SFSAI'vEE: Order. 

(Take "G" follows) 


MR. SALSBERG: I appeal for your ruling, 
Mr, Speaker, The hon. member (Mr. Warrender) has no 
right to stamp a statement I made as untrue because 
in the first place he does not know whether it is or 

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you? 

MR. SAISEERG: In the second place, the hon. 
Premier s (Mr. Frost) statement was made long after 
I sent that letter out and he cannot use a later 
statement to prove a prior statement of another . 
member. Now where I get the information, Mr. Speaker, 
to justify the statement, in my opinion, in my 
letter, is something I will discuss with the hon. 
Attorney -General (Mr. Porter) privately any time he 
wants to, but it has nothing to do with the 
parliamentary rules, and I am drawing that to your 
attention, Mr. Speaker. 

HON. L.M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, will the hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) admit 
that the statements and imputations contained in 
the letter which he broadcast around here were 
completely untrue? 

MR. SALSBERG: I will do nothing of the 
sort, Mr. Speaker. 

AN HON. MEMBER: Why not? 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): That Is the point 
Why not? 

MR. SALSBERG: Because what I said was the 
truth . 



MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Oh, no. 
MR. SALSBERG: I would never have made 
that or any other statement if It were not true. 

AN HON. MEMBER: You are still in the bushes. 

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. I know nothing 
about the letter other than it has been read here . 
The hon. member (Mr. Warrender) maintains that the 
statement is untrue and it is, I think quite within 
the scope of an hon. member, in view of the facts 
which he has before him, to deny the actuality of 
that statement whether in this letter or any other. 

I rule that the hon . member (Mr . Warrender ) 
is quite in order in view of the fact he is dealing 
with a statement which he maintains is untrue, and 
that is his perfect right. There is no question of 
that . 

MR. SALSBERG: Your ruling is setting a 
pre'^edent, Mr. Speaker. 

MR. WARRENDER: I accept your ruling with 
thanks to you, Mr. Speaker. 

MR. SPEAKER: Oh, no thanks. 

MR. WARRENDER: To continue, I think this 
illustrates even more strongly the point I am 
trying to make, that there some people who speak 
at a length out of all proportion to their numbers 
and actually with no basis of facts, because I am 
willing to accept the answer of the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) rather than that of the hon. 
member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg). 


MR. SALSBERG: That Is a distortion. 

MR. WARRENDER: That is my statement on that 
particular subject, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I spoke 
too long on it, out of proportion to the hon. member 
(Mr. Salsberg) who was present in the House. 

I wish now to go on with another thought and 
that Is concerning provincial grants to municipali- 
ties, with particular reference to police departments 
and fire departments. Recently there were submis- 
sions of the Association of the Ontario Mayors and 
Reeves to the Provincial-Municipal Committee for the 
adjustment of the municipal position and tax struc- 
ture. One of the arguments used in this brochure, 
which I think is in the hands of every hon. member 
of this House, is as follows: 

"Conditional grants." 
This is on page 19 of the brochure, -- 

"In adjusting the municipal structure, 
the Association looks with disfavour 
upon conditional grants such as apply 
under the Police and Fire Departments 

And then in the third paragraph of that section It says 

"It is recommended that earnest 
consideration be given to the abolition 
of conditional grants and that in lieu 
thereof all subsidies paid by the pro- 
vince to the municipality for whatever 
purpose be without condition." 

One must take into consideration, Mr. Speaker, 
some of the background when I am replying to the par- 
ticular charge made by the representatives of the 
Mayors and Reeves Association. Speaking first of 

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the Fire Departments, may I say that last year the 
City of Hamilton received $108,197 for fire fighting 
purposes. For police purposes it received $96>580. 
Many years ago the International Association of 
Pire Fighters, which is the fire fighters' organiza- 
tion throughout the whole of the North American 
Continent, passed a resolution called the "No-strike" 
clause, which reads in Section 2 of Article 3, as 

"We — " 
That is the fire fighters, — 

"shall not strike or take active part 
in any sympathetic strike, since the 
work of fire fighters is different 
from that performed by any other 
workers, as we are employed to per- 
form the duties of protecting the 
lives and property of communities 
in case of fire or other serious 

Back in 1945 the then honourable Attor- 
ney-General of the Province, Mr. Leslie Blackwell, 
was attending a convention in London and he learned 
of this no-strike clause in the International 
Association of Fire Fighters' constitution and, 
because he knew they were sincere and would not 
strike and because he knew that certain municipal 
councils were taking advantage of that no-strike 
clause in their constitution, he decided he would, 
in order to protect the fire fighters, give them 
what is known as the compulsory arbitration clause 
as presently set out in The Fire Departments Act, 
and, I might add, the same principle is also carried 

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out in The Police Act. He did that, as I say, to 
give the fire fighters a protection from certain 
ill-advised members of council who were taking ad- 
vantage of it. As an example -- and I have ex- 
perienced that often, acting as I do on behalf of 
locals of fire fighters throughout the province -- 
certain locals have gone before the municipality and 
asked members of the council that working conditions 
be improved or that their salaries be increased, 
and they have been told in effect: "If 3. ou don't 
like it here, you can leave, because we can always 
get volunteer fire fighters to take >our place." For 
that reason certain penalty clauses, if I may call 
them that, were set out in the Fire Fighters Act, 
which said in effect that municipalities would be 
given certain moneys provided they did certain 
things in respect of the fire fighters and of the 

Those were wise provisions in my opinion 
because we know for a fact that certain councils 
have indicated that if there were no strings attach- 
ed to those grants from the provincial Government, 
they would use them for general municipal purposes. 
As a matter of fact, right in Hamilton I know there 
are two or three members, at least, of the Hamilton 
City Council who would like to take that money which 
is being set aside specifically for the Fire Depart- 
ment and the Police Department and use it for general 
municipal purposes in order to bring down the mill 




rate to make It appear as though they were doing a 
much better Job for the City. 

The reason I like the" strings-attached" 
policy, particularly In respect of those two depart- 
ments Is this, that the money must be used for those 
departments, and the record speaks for Itself, Mr. 
Speaker. As a result of this policy there has been 
a great Increase in equipment, an increase in the 
number of men provided for the fire departments 
and an increase, if I do say it, in their morale, 
and when you have high morale in those two uniformed 
services it means they are more active, more keen 
to protect the lives and property of the citizens 
they are there to protect. Take away the" strings- 
attached" policy so that council do not have to live 
up to the bargain which they are supposed to live 
up to, and you will find that the equipment will be 
in short supply, there will not be enough men and 
the morale will gradually decline. 

As a result of The Fire Departments Act and 
as a result of The Police Act, those two uniformed 
services have been able to obtain pensions which 
they never would have had before, under plans which 
have been made by the Department here in Toronto, 
and they are retaining compensation at rates equiv- 
lent to the Workmen's Compensation Act, which is 
really wonderful in their behalf, and in many cases 
it has helped fire fighters who have either been 
injured on the job or in the event of a death it 
has helped their widows and their children. Take 


the strings away from that policy and you will find 
that some city council members or some council members 
abroad will take advantage of that lack of penalty 
or that removal of the strings and you will find they 
will not be looking after their employees the way 
they should. As I say> when I speak of these things, 
I am speakihg from experience which I have picked up 
throughout the years, going around from municipality 
to municipality. 

The hon. member for Waterloo North (Mr. Leavlne) 
spoke of standardization of fire fighting equipment, 
which I think is a wonderful thing. The evidence 
shows that the thread of certain equipment was very 
different from municipality to municipality. Because 
grants are now being made for standardization in 
reference to fire figliting equipment they are going 
to be prepared soon to give mutual aid one to another 
in case of an emergency. 

If there were no strings attached to those 
grants, you would find the municipalities were not 
using the money for that purpose and would not have 
the equipment ready in the event of a catastrophe, and, 
furthermore, it has been established beyond doubt that 
there are many cnnaller municipalities which cannot 
afford to pay for this standardiz' .'jlon, so by the 
Province taking it over and working it out from a 
central spot the cost for all the municipalities is 
thereby reduced. 

There are a few things in respect of the 


City of Hamilton which I should like to mention Just 
briefly, Mr. Speaker. One is the question of housing, 
about which we have heard man;y ., many times in this 
House . It has been said by His Worship the Mayor 
of Hamilton, Mayor Lloyd Jackson, that our greatest 
problem today is lack of good housing for our citi- 
zens. That problem is being accentuated all the 
time by reason of the fact that we are an industrial 
city and persons are being attracted to Hamilton 
because they think they can get jobs there in our 
big mills and our big steel plants. I agree that 
something should be done and I am verj/ glad to see 
that the Government has already taken some action 
to relieve the present situation existing in this 

I should like to commend the hon. Minister 
of Planning and Development (Mr. Griesinger) and Mr. 
Bunnell of his Department for the fine job they did 
for us in the City of Hamilton when we took advantage 
of the low rental scheme which was offered to us 
by the Government. 


As for the unemployed employables, I am quite 
in agreement with what the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) and the hon. Minister of Public Welfare (Mr. 
Goodfellow) said, that it was not the concern of 
this Government but is really a concern of the 
Federal Government, and for two good reasons that 
I suggest. One is because of the huge immigration 
plan which is accentuating the problem all the time. 




and the other is because of the credit restrictions 
imposed by the Federal Government which in turn is 
causing unemployment, the burden of which la being 
thrown over on the municipalities. We in Hamilton, 
as in the past when I was a member of the City 
Council, tried to help some of these people, because 
you cannot just let them starve, you cannot leave 
them destitute, but we feel that, after all, the obli- 
gation is there for the Federal Government and they 
should assume it as quickly as possible. 

Might I say that we need a central provincial 
building in the City of Hamilton. VJe have some 
offices there for public welfare, some for the 
registry office; we have some for the Department of 
Highways and so on. It would seem to be most de- 
sirable to keep the central pvo\7inclal building, just 
as the Dominion of Canada does, so that for the con- 
venience of the citizens ,they will have everything 
there handy for service to them. 

Then may I suggest a couple of amendments 
to The Election Act, and perhaps because it is 
necessary, to The Municipal Act. One I might sug- 
gest Is, and I think it was suggested by an hon. 
member of this House, that is that we have the 
returning officer in each riding send out cards 
telling electors where they may vote. The way it 
Is now, each of the parties which is running a 
candidate sends out its own cards, and I have 
actually seen cards sent out by three different 


parties telling the electors in a certain polling 
subdivision to go to three different places, be- 
cause there had been typographical errors^ or 
errors of some kind. It seems to me that the 
returning officer having prepared the list, having 
certified the list as being correct or as correct 
as possible, is in the best possible position to 
send out cards telling the citizens where they 
may vote . 

Another suggestion I should like to make is 
an amendment to the necessar;, Act so that there 
might be mobile units travelling throughout our 
hospitals. There are a great many persons dis- 
franchised in respect of some incapacity or, shall 
we say, motherhood, as the case may be, who are 
temporarily confined to a hospital on election day 
and who cannot vote because there is no provision 
for them so to do. It would be desirable that 
there should be an amendment permitting all persons 
in hospitals, where of course there is nothing 
mentally wrong but where there is only physical 
incapacity, so that a mobile unit is necessary to 
go around from bed to bed and take their vote and 
they will not be disfranchised, as I say, just 
because of an accident or some form of incapacitation, 

I have another suggestion I would like to 
make by way of amendment to The Election Act, and 
that concerns co-operative apartments. -These are 
becoming a very popular way of providing housing 





accommodation for a great many people. I think 
everyone knows the principle of co-operative apart- 
ments. Apartments are put up and then instead of 
renting an apartment, one may purchase it at a 
certain figure. I have received several com- 
plaints from persons that they may be paying, — 
for instance, in one case a man paid over $8,000 for 
a co-operative apartment for himself and his family, 
paying so much down and the rest per month over a 
period of time, but in spite of the fact that he 
has all that money invested in real estate he is 
not able to vote on money by-laws, while at the 
same time according to the Act a person being 
assessed at $400 only, even if he has only a little 
bit of a lot assessed at that amount, is qualified 
to vote on money by-laws, which is all out of pro- 
portion to the sum invested by the owner of a co- 
operative apartment. I might therefore suggest 

there might be an amendment to make it possible for 
owners of co-operative apartments to vote on money 
by-laws in their respective municipalities. 

Just one other thought and I shall take my 
seat. I think all hon. members of this House will 
be pleased to know that the horticulturists of the 
City of Hamilton have initiated a plan to erect a 
memorial to the late Thomas Baker McQuesten, a former 
Crown Minister of this House, and also, as everyone 
knows, a Minister of the Department of Highways. 
The late Mr. McQuesten did a tremendous amount of 
good for our municipalities and, strangely enough. 


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although I am seated on the Government side of the 
House, I have been asked to be Chairman of a Committee 
for the purpose of raising funds for this memorial. 
It Is proposed because he brought the Rock Gardens 
to Hamilton, which are known throughout the length 
and breadth of this whole continent, the Ro^^al 
Botanical Gardens, which were sponsored by him 
and developed at tremendous expense under his guid- 
ance, and there are many other things which we can 
point to and say: "That was initiated by the late 
T. B. Mo Que s ten, " and so I say to hon. members of 
this House that public subscriptions are going to be 
taken upj we hope to get municipal, and, may I sa^ 
so, Mr. Speaker, we hope to get some provincial 
assistance to erect an appropriate memorial to a man 
who did so much not only for this Province but for 
us who live in the City of Hamilton and environs. 

May I conclude, Mr. Speaker, by saying, as I 
said at the start, that we must appreciate, because of 
our overwhelming majority here, the great responsibility 
which lies with us. I think it behooves everyone of 
us, whether on the Government side or otherwise, to 
pay particular attention to the legislation which is 
being advanced because I feel, and I have said it 
before on many occasions^ that with good legislation, 
which I am sure the Government is going to advance, 
we can achieve an even greater record in the interests 
of the people of this province than we have in the past. 

(Take "H" follows) 



MR. T. D. TH0L5A.S (Ontario): Mj?. Speaker, 
may I first congratulate the Mover and Seconder 
to the Motion^ the hon. member for London and the 
hon, member for Wellington North. They did very well 
on their maiden efforts in the Assembly. In fact, 
February 26th certainly was Government Day. 

The hon. member for London mentioned during 
the course of his remarks that he was not too familiar 
with the intimate British political scene. May I 
assure my hon. friend for London that that was quite 
evident. In the last election in Great Britain, over 
15 million people voted for the British Labotir Party. 
In fact, the Labour Party received over 600,000 votes 
more than in the previous election, and 250,000 more 
votes than the Conservative Party. Yes, Mr. Speaker, 
it means that 15 million intelligent people in Great 
Britain are convinced that democratic socialism is the 
only solution to their problems. 

I would like to congratulate the hon. member 
for Eglinton on his appointment as Minister of Education. 
Another hon. member has been promoted in recent months. 
I refer to the hon. member for Elgin, who has been 
appointed Minister of Public Works. I wish him well, 
because he is well respected and I think he is a just 
and fair-minded gentleman. In passing, Mj?. Speaker, 
I would like to say how much I appreciate the courtesy 
and assistance the members received in this building, 
I am sure all members of the Legislature appreciate 
the good job ¥x, French and his staff are doing under 


the supervision of the rinister of Public Works. 

JJir, Speaker, I am very proud to represent 
Ontario Riding in this Assembly. They are a wide-awake 
people in the riding of South Ontario, not easily 
bamboozled, and today I want to bring to your attention 
some of the problems which the municipalities in my 
riding are concerned with. 

First, I want to deal with unemployment. 
Two years ago, the C.C.F. Opposition in the Legislature 
asked the Government what they intended to do about 
this problem. At that tim.e, there were 500,000 men 
and women unemployed in Canada and 5 million men and 
women unemployed in the United States. I can well 
remember the reply of the Premier at that time. (In 
his usual smooth and expansive manner) he said the 
unemployment problem would adjust itself in the passing 
of time. He guessed right on that occasion. He was 
right, but at what a cost I For, had it not been for 
the war in Korea, he would have been wrong. The 
employment situation in this country and in the United 
States today would have been pretty grim. In the war 
in Korea, the United Nations forces have suffered 
306,070 casualties. Is that to be the price we 
have to pay for keeping most of our people employed? 
Is war-time to be the only time when full employment 
can be maintained? Mr. Speaker, it is ironical and 
shocking to conclude that it is only through war that 
we can get maximiim production and full employment. 


Have the 290,000 men and women unemployed in this 
country to wait for another war to obtain a job? I 
know this is primarily a Federal matter, but if we have 
to wait for the Federal Government, I am sure many of 
the unfortunate people unemployed today will oease to 
need a job. 

No jobs, but unemployment relief, if they 
can get it. The municipalities, already over-burdened, 
claim it is not their responsibility, and rightly so. 
The Province says it is a Federal field, and with all 
this buck-passing, the municipalities are left to 
carry this burden, Mr, Speaker, I agree that the 
Federal Government has some responsibility, but I 
think the Provincial Government has a moral responsibil- 
ity and should help to carry some portion of the cost, 
British Columbia pays 80^ toward all relief costs and 
the province of Saskatchewan pays 85%, Surely the 
wealthy Province of Ontario can do just as well. Itr, 
Speaker, this is not just a matter of constitutional 
arguments and financial statements. It concerns men 
and women like ourselves who are unemployed and in 
need. It concerns people who are hungry and cold, 
who are asking us for help. Surely we cannot pass 
by on the other side, saying: "It's someone else's 
responsibility." ViTe, in the C.C.F,, say: "Let's 
first feed the hungry, and argue about the responsibility 

Mr. Speaker, this government has often 



expressed its opposition to the spread of Communism, 

I tell you that if the government keep "passing the 

buck" on unemployment relief, while you allow the 

\inemployed to go hungry, you will be doing more to 

advance the spread of Communism, in Ontario than all 

the spieeches the hon, member for St. Andrew (TTr. 

Salsberg) can make, 

Itr, Speaker, I want to review the housing 

situation. Housing' is mentioned in the Throne Speech, 

as follows: 

"One of the greatest needs of the people 
of this Province in these troubled times 
is for adequate housing. Very considerable 
progress has been made in this direction, 
but the problem is still most acute. The 
capacity of our people to build and to own 
their own homes is not equal to the demands 
upon them to provide the initial financing," 

We have heard now for four years similar 
utterances in previous Throne Speeches, and nothing 
very much has accrued. In fact, the record of this 
Government in respect to Housing, is a very poor one, 
Wr, Speaker, this Government does not realize that this 
is a pressing, and a most acute problem. The acute 
housing shortage has a great bearing on the high cost 
of our social services today. The lack of housing is 
not merely a question of discomfort for those 
suffering from it. Slums and poor housing generally, 
together with overcrowding, produce social ills which 
are costly in every sense of the word. In the 
February issue of last year of "Community Planning 
Review", is an article entitled: "Economic Problems 


Of Urban Re-Development". Idr, Leon C-ertlor refers to 

figures from a book: "New City Patterns'' by I'lessrs. 

Sanders and Rabuck, together with his own comments, as 


"Blighted areas work havoc with the cost side 
of the balance sheet. The proportionate 
costs of blighted districts in a represent- 
ative group of American cities are concisely 
demonstrated in the following relationship. 
Although slums and blighted districts comprise 
about ZOfo of the metropolitan residential 
areas, they account for: 

33^ of the population; 

4:5% of the major crimes; 

55% of the juvenile deliquency; 

50^ of the disease; 

45^ of the city service costs, buf 

only 6% of the real estate tax revenue. 

These relationships are just as true for 
Canada, Data available for such m.ajor cities 
as Toronto, ITamilton, Windsor, Winnipeg and 
Vancouver indicate the same underlying 
conditions, A recent Vancouver survey, for 
example, reveals that while the blighted 
Strathcona area yields only 1150,000 a year 
in tax revenue, it costs the city over 
$298,000, or twice as much for the social 
services, " 

In his "Houses for Canadians", ¥x. Humphrey 
Carver refers to relations between health and housing 
conditions in Toronto, using as his source the Report 
of the Lieutenant-Governor's Committee on Housing in 
Toronto, 1934, There is no reason, Mr. Speaker, to 
believe that poor housing is less damaging in its 
results today. The Report showed that for Tuber- 
culosis, in good housing areas the incidence was E5 
per 10,000 of population, while in poor housing areas, 
it was 37 per 10,000, and in the worst housing areas, 
64 per 10 ,,000. ' 


Infant mortality rates are also interesting. 
In good housing areas, the rate was 58.3 per 1,000 of 
live births; in poor housing, 72.6 per 1,000, and in 
the worst housing, it was 121.2 per 1,000, 

^1/hat is the picture of juvenile delinquency? 
In good housing areas, the rate was 7.9 per 10,000 of 
population. In poor housing areas it was 27.6 per 
10,000 and in the worst areas it was 36.6 per 10,000, 

These figures prove, Mr, Speaker, that the 
housing shortage is Canada's No. 1 problem, for it is 
so closely related to the immense costs of the social 
services which the municipal governments have to carry. 
The most poignant comment made a few years ago, was 
made by the Halifax Citizens' Committee: 

"Housing for the poor we are going to provide, 
let us make no mistake about that. It is 
only a question whether we shall house them 
in hospitals, mental institutions, reform- 
atories and j'ails, or whether we shall house 
them in cleanly, light and sanitary surround- 
ings where body and soul will have a chance, 
^Vhich shall it be?" 

Mr, Speaker, which shall it be? 

I had a most distressing case brought to my 
attention last December, A young married woman with 
tvro children asked me if I could help her find 
accommodation. The house they were living in was 
badly overcrowded, and she received the following 
letter from the Medical Officer of Health, In Oshawa, 
as follows: 


November 22, 1951, 

"Dear ¥x, Kornylo:- 

"e have received a 
complaint vjith reference to the over- 
crowding existing in your house at the 
above noted address. Our Inspector 
reports that for the floor area and 
the cubic contents of the dwelling good 
accommodation cannot be provided for more 

than four adults, or three adults and 
two children, 

■'.^e would appreciate 
hear in-';' from you at your earliest con- 
venience when this overcrowding will be 
corrected. Further inspection will be 
conducted in the future. 

Yours truly, 

"A. F. MacKay, "M.B.,D,P.H., 
Medical officer of Health."' 

This was followed by another letter from 
the Sanitary Inspector, as follows: 

"Please take notice that within 30 
days (JANUiLRY 2/52), of the service of 
this notice you are to abate the nuiscance 
now maintained in your residence at the 
above address, namely, reduce the number 
of occupants to a maximum of four adults, 
or three adults and two children. 

Should you fail to comply with the 
requirements of this notice within the 
period above stated, a prosecution will 
follow under the Provincial Public Health 
Act or Consolidated By-Laws of the City of 

"A. F. I-'IACKAY" I.i.B., 

Medical Officer of Health, 

Sanitary and Plumbing Inspector, 



There were fourteen people living in that 
house. The lady was greatly distressed and was afraid 
of being evicted, so I journeyed over to Ajax to try 
to secure accommodation for her, but I was told 
accommodation in Ajax was retained for defence workers. 
I was up against a stone wall, I did not know what to 
do. Yet, TIr. Speaker, this lady's husband had been 
fighting in Korea since last April, 1951 -- a soldier 
in the Canadian Army fighting for our democratic way 
of life. I wonder what he thought, in far-off Korea? 

Through the kindliness of the Sanitary 
Inspector and the M.O.E., the lady was allowed to 
stay in the house, but the same distressing circum- 
stances prevail. I do hope, Mr, Speaker, that the 
Government will realize the seriousness of the housing 
situation, and if the impending legislation will help 
in any way at all, I will be one of the first to 
applaud the Government, 

(Take I follows, ) 


This Is an extract from the report: 

"The Committee finds it difficult 
to accept some of the statements made 
by Mr. Bunnell regarding the price #f 
the land in question. At any earlier 
meeting in his office in Toronto ^ he said 
that he would not consider a price ex- 
ceeding the original cost of the land 
to the Cit^ plus subsequent taxes 
thereon which would work out to less 
than $30 per lot. 

"At the meeting in Oshawa on August 
1^, 1951, he said that in view of all 
the circumstances he felt that the city's 
price of $300 a lot was fair and he 
assured the Mayor and Alderman Nay lor 
in answer to their questions that this 
price was satisfactory. 

"At the meeting on August 25th -- 
two weeks later, he said that this price 
could not be paid but that he would recom- 
mend a price of $150 per lot. 

"The Committee therefore finds it- 
self unable to place much reliance upon 
Mr. Bunnell's statement regarding ..." 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): May I 

say to my hon. friend that he can readily see that 

our problem in land assembly deals is to give to the 

people the lowest cost we can get. 

I think the Minister of Planning and 

Development (Mr. Griesinger) will agree that we do 

not stand for any padding; we knock all the water 

and all the profit out of it, and I think that is 

what the hon. members of this House would want us to 


To my hon. friend I might say that I am not 

familiar with the Oshawa transaction beyond the fact 

that this land is owned by the municipality itself, 

and as a matter of fact, I think that the municipality 



will agree that the land should come into the land 
assembly deal at the lowest possible price. I 
think my friend will agree with that. Remember 
that the price that is included for these lots is 
added to the price that people afterwards paj;.;; for 
the houses. It is our idea to keep that down as 
low as possible. 

I would say to ray hon. friend that if the 
municipality -- and I know the municipality of Oshawa 
is interested; I think they are very sincerely inter- 
ested in it ---. is able to show to the hon, , 
Minister and to the Government that these prices do 
not include any profits, that it is a question of 
turning this into the land assembly deal to enable us 
to get to work, to put in sewers and sidewalks and 
what not, we will do business. I know my friend would 
be the first to object if we were to go to a munici- 
pality and pay unconscionable prices to anybody, — 
whether it was Oshawa or any place else. That is the 
job we have and our Job is to try and get people land 
at cheap prices and to put houses there at prices 
which they are able to pay for them, and I may say 
to my hon. friend that that is a very difficult 
problem in this big complicated province of ours. 

MR. THOMAS (Ontario): I appreciate the re- 
marks of the Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), but I was 
asked a direct question by the Minister of Planning 
and Development (Mr. Grlesinger) as to what Oshawa 
did about housing, and I was telling him what the City 






of Oshawa fait about this particular project. 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister); What do you 
say about the price yourself? Is the price rock 

I4R. THOMAS (Ontario): I shall come to that 
in a moment. If you please, but I would like to say 
that the offer of the Minister of Planning and 
Development (Mr. Grleslnger) was this: the offer was 
to build houses at about roughly $9,000 apiece. Now, 
this is In the Minutes ... 

MR. GRIESINGER: That is right, and that is 
what they cost. 

MR. THOMAS (Ontario): And the carrying 
charges were to be $35 a month. Mr. Speaker, 
this project, these houses, were to be amortized 
over a period of fifty years, which would mean that 
a $9,000 house is going to cost $21,000. 

MR. GRir.GTNGER : Well, mind you, these are 
rental houses and you are talking about cheap land. 

MR. THOMAS (Ontario): Just a moment -- I am 
not going to argue. 

MR. GRIESINGER: They wanted $500 a lot for 
them when they started. 

MR. THOMAS (Ontario): That is what it is 
going to cost you to carry a $9,000 house -- $21,000. 
I am not arguing the case for the City of Oshawa. I am 
convinced in my mind and it is my opinion that no 
municipality ''^7ould have anything to do with this be- 
cause it Is not '^•ho-'" -"C"por-'^lblllty . It is not 



the responsibility of the municipality to pay any 
portion of a low rental housing cost, and I am happy 
tn say that there are several people In muoh m«p« 
prominent positions who are inclined to agree with 
me . 

In the Globe and Mail of last year -- June, 
1951 -- Mr. Winters, the Minister of Reconstruction, 
was speaking to some mayors and reeves in the City 
of London and he was questioned on this particular 
thing and this is what Mr. Winters had to say: 

"The minister said that the Federal 
Government had not suggested the municipali- 
ties share in the costs. That, he said, had 
been decided by Queen's Park." 

MR. GRIESINGER: That is quite right. 

MR. THOMAS: I agree with that. 

MR. GRIESINGER: At 7^ per cent? What 
are they doing out in the Province of Saskatchewan? 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): I might tell 
my hon. friend that we are doing more than any 
province in this matter. In some provinces they 
are passing the whole 25 per cent to the municipali- 

May I, Mr. Speaker, say this; that the 
7i per cent that is charged to the municipalities 
relieves the municipalities of all the services. 
They are all charged into the cost of the project. 
If a municipality were to pay for the services, it 
would pay much more than 7i per cent. 


MR. GRIESINGER: And they get their money 

MR. THOMAS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I might say 
with all humility that if the Province of Ontario 
is doing more than any other province the other 
provinces are doing very little. 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): That is right. 
A lot of them are not doing very much . We are 
doing a great deal, as my friend will find out very 

MR. THOMAS: Mr. Speaker, I may take a little 
longer; I am getting several interruptions. 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Go ahead. 

MR. THOMAS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to 
say something in respect to agriculture and then 


follow the speech from that point. 

(Page 1-6 follows) 


MR. GRIESENGEE: Iviay I ask another question, Mr, 
Speaker? Will the hon. member, ("^r. Thomas, Ontaii o) , 

give me the answer as to v/hy the city of Oshav/a turned 
down the housing deal v/hich was offered to them? 

Ivil-.. Ti.OLlAS (Ontario): Yes, I can do that. I 
have the minutes of three meetings held in the city of 
Oshawa. I will not bore the J^-^ouse by reacinf. them, 
but an e::tract from the minutes of the meeting of 
August, 1951, may make it understandable to the hon, 
members of the Legislature, at least v/hy the city Couniicil 
in Oshawa v;as not prepared to have anything to do v;ith 
the proposal offered by the hon, iv.inister of Planning 
and Development, (Mr. Griesenger). 

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a v/ord or two 
respecting agriculture. I want to refer to the strange 
procedure required by the lilk Control Act, when farmers 
want to establish a marketing agency to market their milk. 
The i-ilk Concrol Act stipulated that when a representative 
group of producers supplying a market, apply for a marketing 
agency, a poll shall te taken, and if &6fo of all pro- 
ducers supplying that market, vote for it, the application 
may be granted. If only 65/j of the producers voted for it, 
the applicati on is refused, re^^ardless of whether the 
other Zd'/o voted against it, or did not vote at all. I 
will give ycu an example, i>ir. Speaker, of what can happen 
under this system. Last Fall, the Toronto i-xilk Producers 
applied for a marketing agency, and the i ilk Control Board 


took a poll by mail, v/ith the following result: 

In favour, 2,697. 
No, 149, 

Spoiled, 73. 

Although V'/ell over 90fo of those voting, v/ere in favour, 
the application v/as refused because the votes of those 
who did not care one way or the other, and, thereforee, 
did not vote, vere counted against the application. The 
nuraber of vots not cast were 1,243. I would urge the 
g vernment to ainend the i.dlk Control Act to make 66;o of 
the ballots actually returned, the necessary majority 
for the establishment of a merketing agency. 

Mr. Speaker, in recent months, vie have read in the 
press of this province that the i^'ederal Government has 
offered Ontario much more favourable terms for the ceding 
of certain tax fields. It does seem to be the most 
favourable offer received up to now. The ^--reifier has 
stated many times his reasons for rejecting the 1945 
offer of the Federal government, claiming that Ontario 
has received more in revenue by staying out of that 
agr eement. According -to a statement made in this 
Legislature the other day, the hon. Prime Minister stated 
that Ontario was seven million dollars to the good, by 
rejecting tne proposals of the x^'ederal Government in 1945. 
;:r. Speaker, I think when an accounting is m^de, when the 
record is uade straight, we v/ill find that v/hile the pro- 
vince may have netted an extra ,p7 ,000 ,000. , the people in 


Ontario have lost an awful lot mere, 

IvIR. FROST(Prirrie Ministr-r): .''e have not lost it, 
\ve have raade it, 

HON. ARTHUt. ^^ZLSK (Provincial Secretary) : v/hat is 
your authority for that statement? 

MR. TliOMAS (Ontario): Just a moment, please. You 
will have your opportunity. You v/ill have an opportunity 
in this debate, if you care to take advantage of it. 

In 1945, the i'ederal Government offered the provinces 
a complete health program, national security pensions for 
those persons over 70 years of age, and pensions for those 
betvfeen 65 and 69, v:ith a means test, on a 50/50 basis. 
Also they would assume complete responsibility for the em- 
ployable unemployed, vho v/ere on relief. I want to give 
y. u some figures this afternoon ^vhich will prove beyond 
a doubt that the people in Ontario have lost out on the deal, 

IviR. FROST: If the ■i^'^ederal government could do that 
in the first place, what is standing in their vmy of doing 
it now? ne are certainly not standinr, in their way. 

IViR. THOl^iAS (Ontario): Let u£ c onsider the national 

security pension, I know some will say this introduced 

on the first of January, 1952. Quite true. But if the 

proposals of the Federal G-overnment had been accepted in 

1945, this legislation would have ccime into effect five 
years earlier. The people of Ont; rio lost more than 
^7,000,000,00 on that deal. 

MR. FROST: As I have said on previous occasions, we 


were and we v/ere ready to co-operate. The matter cf 
pensions is now fixed. Y/ill the hon, member (Mr, 
Thomas, OntaMo) tell ms any reason why the balance 
of the program cannot be implemented at once? Vi'here 
can we prevent it? We are anxious to help it along* 

(Page I-IO follows) . 

I -10 

'•■Jhat is to prevent the Federal Government 
from going ahead with such^a program at once? jf 
they can pay the pension at the age of 70, why can 
they not do the rest of it? Who is preventing them? 
!7e are anxious to assist them, if there is anything 
we can do, 

¥R, THOI'ikS (Ontario): Kow, for the cost of 
relief: I have received figures from the City of 
Oshawa respecting the cost of relief for the years 

1945 to 1951 inclusive. 

MR. FROST: VJhat kind of relief? Relief for 

the unemployed? 

l^, THOIIAS (Ontario): All kinds of relief. 

lixR, FROST: I'ay I point out the green book 
does not allow for unemployables at all. I think the 
hon. member (Mr, Thomas, Ontario) should take a day 
off and read the book. 

IVIR. THOMAS (Ontario): Prior to January, 1951, 
when annexation took place, the City of Oshawa had a 
population of roughly 2^,000. The cost of relief for 
those six years to the City of Oshawa taxpayers was 
:;)202,304,00. Of .course, they had some assistance 
from the Provincial Government. 

I -11 

im, FROST: Did Oshawa pay direct relief to 
the unemplAyablea? I do not tlilnlc «hty dlfjif Z thinil 

Oshawa only paid to the unemployed. The unemployables 

are not covered by the Federal figures at all, 

MR. THOLaS (Ontario): They secured the sum 
of ;^60, 562,00, leaving the city share of relief at 

On top of that it cost the city taxpayers 
,j6l,S6S for hospitalization. Now there are 1,400 
municipalities in the Province of Ontario, some bigger 
and some smaller than the City of Oshawa, and I would 
say, that if it was possible to obtain an accounting 
of the cost of the social services in all the muni- 
cipalities we would find Ontario has lost quite a lot, 

MR, FROST: I want to point out to the hon, 
member (Mr. Thomas, Ontario) -- as I know he wants to 
be fair -- that the Federal grant did not cover any 
of those at all, 

MR, THOMAS (Ontario): The picture can be 
presented in another way. In the Brief, presented by. 
the Association of Mayors and Reeves to the Provincial- 
Municipal Committee, we find on page 10 that 'in the 
four-year period 1947 to 1950 inclusive, a sum of 
sp92*3/4 million (excluding municipal grants to hospitals) 


was paid out by all Ontario Municipalities 
in social services." 

Mr. Speaker, much more than $7 million would have been 
taken care of if the proposals of the Federal Govern- 
ment had been accepted by this Government in 19^5- 
The Province of Ontario received an extra $7 
million, but the people of Ontario have l»st a 
great deal more. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I heard a tribute paid to the 
Prime Minister some weeks ago. It was mentioned on 
that occasion that in the opinion of the speaker the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) was above all a 
Canadian. I was very pleased to hear that. I am 
sure every member in the Legislature is proud to be 
a Canadian, and we are all interested in raising 
the standard of living for our people in Ontario, 
but I would suggest that we should have a much 
broader view, and that our objective must be to 
increase the standard of living of all our Canadian 
people. The subject of Federal and Provincial 
taxation Is a most important one to the people of 
this Province, and the Members of this Legislature, 
irrespective of party affiliations, would like to 
know the attitude of this Government. Therefore 
I would like to ask the Prime Minister to devote 
some time during this Session to a free and frank 
discussion of this important subject. 

The Speech from the Throne mentioned that 
there will be some amendments to the Workmen's 

( '^ 


Compensation Act. That is most welcome. I do 
hope the Government ■will consider the recommendation 
of Mr. Justice Roach respecting the increase of 
compensation to workers injured when the rates were 
55 per cent or 66 2/3 per cent and when wages were 
much lower than they are today. I had a man call on 
me last December who had lost his hand at the wrist 
in 1918, when he was receiving $l8 a week. That 
man is getting $8 a week for his disability. I 
do hope the Government will do something to adjust 
that low payment. If it means taking It from the 
consolidated revenue, then by all means let us do 
it. Surely we can afford to give these people a 
square deal from the buoyant revenues we are re- 
ceiving today. 


7/e welcome the statement of the Prime Minister 
that he will not introduce compulsory arbitration legis- 
lation at this Session, Organized Labour is greatly- 
opposed to compulsory arbitration, and it is quite 
evident, by the announcement of the Prime Minister, 
that most of the manufacturers do not want it either, 
I would like to make a request of the Minister of 
Labour, and that is that he try to speed up the con- 
ciliation services, I have received some complaints 
regarding this service, I know he will say his staff 
is overworked, but may I ask the Minister to take on 
more staff, and if he does make provision in the 
estimates for this increase, I can assure him we will 
go down the line with him. 

In conclusion, Mr, Speaker, we are now a 
very small group in this Legislature. '.'Je suffered a 
grievous setback last November, The loss of our 
respected and able leader and other members of our 
group was most regrettable, and I am sure the Prime 
Minister will agree with me that no one in the last 
Legislature made a more valuable and important con- 
tribution to the debates in this Assembly than our 
Leader, Now we are just two, but the hon. member for 
South Cochrane and myself represent the opinions and 



o.t.: , 


aspirations of 320,000 n?a and women in the Province 
of Ontario, 

And in the years ahead we will increase our 
strength, our numbers will grov; in the 'years ahead, 
and we will join hands v/ith other democratic -minded 
people in other parts of the world in helping to steer 
v/estern civilization not to the extreme right, nor to 
the extreme left, but along the great highway, the 
middle road of democratic socialism to plenty, security 
and world peace, 

MR. W, M, TiJCXLE (Kingston): Mr. Speaker, I 
move the adjournrrr.^ oz' the debate- 

Motion af;;recd to, 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, in adjourning the House I v/ould like to go 
ahead with the addresses in reply to the Speech from 
the Throne. We will hold a Session to-morrow night, 
and the Hon. iittorney-General (Mr. Porter) would like 
to advance one stage of the Bill he introduced this 
afternoon, if it is printed. That is the Bill in 
relation to the Enqi.Liries A etc 

I move the adjournment of the House. 

Motion agroed to. 

The House adjourned at 6.1$ of the clock p.m. 



Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XVI 

Thursday, March 13, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Buildings 





of the 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq. 

Hon. (Rev.) M. C, Davles, Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, 1/arch 13, 1952. 

The House having met. 

3 o'clock p.m. 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. 

Reading aiid receiving Petitions. 

Presenting Reports by Committees. 

IIR. W. I:. NICKLE (Kingston): Fir. 
Speaker, I beg leave to present the third report of 
the Standing Committee on Miscellaneous Private 

THE CLERK ASSISTAINTT: Mr. Nickle from the 
Standing Committee on I'iscellaneous Private 
Bills begs leave to present the following as its third 


Your Committee begs to report the following 

Bills without amendment :- 

Bill No. 7 - An Act respecting the City of 
Fort V/illiam. 

Bill No. 17 - An Act respecting the Municipality 
of Neebing, 

Your Committee begs to report the following 

Bills with certain amendments :- 

Bill No. 30 - An Act respecting the Town of 
Fort Erie. 

Bill No. 33 - An Act respecting the Township 
of i/IcKim. 

All of which is respectfully submitted. 

IvIR. SPEAKER: Motions. 

Introduction of Bills. 


HON. H. R* SCOTT (Minister of Lands and 
Forests): moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An 
Act to amend the Provincial Parks Act", 

He said: Mr. Speaker, these proposed 
amendments are minor amendments. The first is con- 
cerning Rondeau and Ipperwash Parks which are really now 
more matters of municipal administration rather than 
conservation of fish and wild life as in our other 
parks, y/e feel it would be better under the Department 
of Municipal Affairs. The second amendment is adding 


the word "public" camps to commercial and private camps. 
We have a great number of boys' and girls' camps in the 
parks which are not really commercial, they are not 
private, and v/e feel we should enlarge the Act to cover 
them as well. The third section is enlarging our control 
of boats. V/e have at the present time, control of motor 
boats but we wish to change that word to "boats". We find 
in some of our wilderness areas, for instance, that 
a plane may leave a boat on this trip; the next time 

it may leave a second boat, and so on, and eventually 
build up a fleet back in the wilderness area. We wish 
to have this worded in this way so as to control all 
boats and all types of v/atercraft in our provincial 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 

phari/lAcy act 

HON. M. PHILLIPS (Minister of Health) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the 
Pharmacy Act", 

He said: Mr, Speaker, I might say that the 
Province of Ontario is divided into districts and re- 
sidents of each district are elected to form the 
Council, The present Act limits the right to vote for 
members of the Council and the right to sit as members 
of the Council, to owners of stores or managers of 
stores where we have a group of chain stores. This 


amendment allows employees to have the right to vote 
and also the right to sit on the council and pay their 
fees the same as the owners and directors of the drug 
stores. Of course, all employees are pharmacists; they 
are graduates and are registered pharmacists, 

I'lotion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

worej'Ien's coi.3>ensation act 

HOF. C. DAlJiiY (l-inister of Labour) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the 
Workmen's Compensation Act", 

He said: This Act embodies three or four 
new clauses into the Workmen's Compensation Act, In 
one section it is designed to clarify the intent of the 
clause in order to ensure that apprentices and the like 
are sufficiently covered by the Act, Secondly, the 
definition of "learner" is added as complementary to the 
clarification perfected in the section of which I just 
spoke. You will recall that the hon, member for Kenora 
(J5r. 'Tren) raised this point the other day. It was 
brought to our attention by the fact that in British 
Colim.bia they had a case affecting one of these 
people they call "learners" on the railway. These 
men are hired to travel with the train and perform 
the regular duties of a train man, while in this 
process of learning and have not been covered by the 


Act. We feel that as the idea of Workmen's Compensation 
is to protect the workmen. These men should be included 
and given that protection. 

Another section is added to include the 
members of a municipal voluntary fire brigade. In many 
of our small municipalities, v;e have volunteer fire 
brigades, men who volunteer their services, train, and 
do much work in connection with fire protection. In 
the event of a fire, this Act provided no protection 
whatever and this proposes to protect them. 

Further, it protects a man who may be comman- 
deered . by a police officer, a provincial police officer, 
or any policeman to assist him in case of trouble. . 
Prior to the passing of this Act, if that man v;ere 
injured or perhaps killed -- and we have records of 
such sad things happening--he has no protection. This 
Act will protect that man because he is req.uired by Issn 
to assist the police officer if he is asked to do so. 
This will protect those people. The Government feels 
that in view of circumstances which may happen, 
these men while being hunted by the law may go to 
some small municipality. It is not the responsibility 
of the municipality, but they may be cornered there, 
and some citizen may be injured or killed and that 
should not be the responsibility of the municipality. 
The Government proposes in this Bill that in cases of law 



enforcement under this Act, the Government assumes the 

I just have one other thing to report in this 
connection and that it is by regulation. It* is 
not required to be an amendment to the Act,. It eliminates 
the clause requirtnga certain number of people to be 
employed in an industry in order for it to qualify for 
V/orkmen's Compensation. Under our new regulations, 
which will not go into effect until January 1st next 
year, the numbers will be eliminated. We are able to 
do that because of the fact that our nev; building of .which 
I spoke last year, is on the v/ay, and we hope by the 
end of the year to have better accommodation and 
will be more able to do many of these things from an 
administrative point of view, than we are at the present 
time, in our present cramped quarters. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the 
Insurance Act". 

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill amends the 
Insurance Act to include fraternal -societies , which under 
the present legislation, operate under certain 
restrictions as to issuing annuities or endowments or 

A- 7 

term insurance. At the present time, they have not that 
authority. The present Act also limits the sum payable 
on death to |10,000. in the policies issued by 
fraternal societies. In 1950, an amendment v/as made 
to the Federal Legislation, 'T?'he Canadian and British 
Insurance Companies' Act, "which removed these 
restrictions in cases which were governed by that Act. 
It is proposed by this amendment to bring the Ontario 
Insurance Act into line. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 

HON, DANA PORTER (Attorney-General) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the 
Real Estate and Business Brokers Act", 

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill covers the 
question that is arising as to whether or not Judgment 
creditors, under the present section of the Act, includes 
all creditors of the person bonded, not only those in 
respect to claims arising out of trusts and real estate. 
It v/as originally intended that the bond should only 
be for the benefit of persons having claims in respect 
of the trusts and real estate. The Act will be 
amended accordingly. In the second place, it provides 
that in order that the account into which deposits are 
paid, is to be a trust account, and prevents brokers from 
using trust monies, otherwise than in accordance with 


the trust. Thirdly, an amendment v/ill require the 
salesman to deliver a copy of the listing to the 
vendor who has signed it. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 

HON. V'/. S. GEMvIELL (Minister of Mines) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the 
Natural Gas Conservation Act". 

He said: Mr. Speaker, these are just minor 
amendments to the Natural Gas Conservation Act in regard 
to administration of the Act to clarify some of the 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill, 

HON. W. S. GEIVMELL (Minister of Mines) moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend the 
Mining Act". 

He said: This Bill covers many amendments to 
the Act. First of all, in the staking of mining claims 
in the Patricia District, it was made into a mining 
district, they reported their claims in Toronto. Now, 
they are to be brought into the same position as other 
Districts in the province. Secondly, on the question 
of staking claims, mining claims are not subject to patent, 
Y^e find weaknesses in the Act in regard to rentals. It 

A- 9 

was not placed in the Act and we want to bring it up-to- 
date in that regard. 

(Take "B" follows) 


Secondly, a few weeks ago a court case took 
place in the part of the Province where we were 
questioning the action that had been done on claims 
and the case was thrown out . What happened in this 
case was that from 1920 to 19^8 the Deputy Minister 
of Mines had given authority to employees in our 
different offices to make them commissioners of oaths 
but this was thrown out of court We had to bring 
those cases from the period 1920 to 19^8 up to date 
so that the oaths taken during that period would be 
made legal . 

Everything was taken care of from 19^8 on 
by an Act in 1948, but, for some reason, the period 
from 1920 to 1948 was not taken cai^e of. 

HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal 
Affairs) moves first reading of Bill intituled, 
"An Act to amend the Department of Municipal Affairs 

He said: Mr. Speaker, in No. 1, the first 
section is a definition of a"municipality ." We 
had difficulty in the north countr^ in the defini- 
tion of a municipality, that is, in taking land for 
taxes in the school sections. Some of the 
solicitors claimed that the school board did not 
have the power to take that land. Therefore, we 
want the school board considered as a municipality 
in the unorganized districts in parts of the north 



The other point is changing Section 3 to 
make the Act conform to existing practice whereby 
land In respect of which a tax arrears certificate 
is registered under the "Land Titles Act" -- we want 
that "Land Titles Act" in there for those registered 
in the organized parts. 

The fifth one is the one that is im- 
portant. At present, under Section 51 of the Act, 
no person interested in land, in respect of which a 
tax arrears certificate is registered, can applj at 
any time for a conveyance of the land if it has not 
meanwhile been sold or declared by by-law to be 
required for municipal purposes. 

The new subsection will limit that to ten 
years. With the many housing projects throughout 
the province we were finding difficulty in 
that some individual would leave a small piece of 
land, and the one I have in mind was twenty -four 
years, without paying taxes on it. As soon as 
the municipality required that land for a housing 
project, they claimed that it was not a municipal 
programme, that the Federal and Provincial Governments 
also entered into that contract for the housing, and 
we had great difficulty in acquiring the land. So 
now, we are putting a ten->ear limit on with one 
proviso -- that the original owner must be notified 
at the end of the ten years. 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 




HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal 
Affairs) moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An 
Act to amend the Ontario Municipal Board Act." 

He said: The first section provides that B7 . 
"be amended to conform. The old Act said that the 
old municipality mi^ht pass a by-law for the issuing 
of debentures . Section 67 provides that no debentures 
shall be issued by a municipality without first going 
to the Municipal Board and that has been missed over 
this period of years so that we were conflicting in 
that way. This is Just in order to bring them into 
conformity . 

Section 2 provides that any debentures 
being issued or any b^^-laws that are affecting the 
municipalit:;, that are handled by the Municipal Board, 
would have to be advertised in the Ontario Gazette. 
All hon. members know that there are hundreds of 
municipalities in this province who do not know any- 
thing about the Ontario Gazette and never see it . 
¥e prefer to leave it . to the Board to decide on 
the local paper or a paper in the Immediate vicinity 
in which the by-law could be advertised. 

Section 3 is amended to bring our annual 
report in line with all %he annual reports. The hon. 
Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh) has requested us to 
do this so that the annual reports will all be on the 
same basis. 

Motion agreed to: first reading of the Bill. 


MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, before the Orders, may I ask you to 
revert to Motions, please? 

Motion egrecd to. 

HON. G. A. WELSH (Provincial Secretary): 
Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to present to the House 
the following: the Annual Report of the Inspector 
of Legal Offices for the year ending December 
31st, 1951. 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

MR. A. H. COWLING (High Park): Mr. Speaker, 
joined by my friend, the hon. member for Parkdale 
(Mr. Stewart), and the hon. member for Dover court 
(Mr. Kerr), I would like to welcome here this after- 
noon students from the Western Technical and Com- 
mercial School and Humberside Collegiate Institute, 
both in High Park riding. We welcome them here 
today, I am sure. 

MR. SPEAKER: I am sure we are all very happy 
to welcome these students to the Legislature this 
afternoon and hope that they will feel they 
are really part and parcel of the Province of 
Ontario, and some day perhaps some of them will be 
occupying some of the seats which we are now 

May I draw the attention of the hon. 
members to one quite important rule in the House, 

: i':>5r:' ivf ^^. f'^i 



Rule No. 38, that prior to an; matters of urgent 
public Importance being discussed in the House, 
permission must be obtained from the Speaker. 

I just want to clarify that. It is a ver> 
ancient rule which has been promulgated for proper 
control of the House, so that the Speaker will know 
what is going to take place. I am in m;^' office at 
least half an hour before the House meets, so that 
we can clear up matters, large or small, prior ->■..• 
to their presentation before the Orders of the Day. 

I know that I will have the co-operation of 
the newer hon. members in this regard. 

Orders of the Day. 

HON. W. J. DUNLOP (Minister of Education) 
moves discharge of Order No. 19, second reading of 
Bill No. 67 intituled, "An Act to amend the Continua- 
tion Schools Act." 

He said: Mr. Speaker, my reason for moving 
that this Order be discharged is that it has recently 
become desirable that Acts for the high schools — 
the High School Act, the Board.-of Education Act, and 

one other very similar to those should be amended. 

Tt appears to us desirable that this be held over 
and that we bring in all of the amendments at the 
same time, for this i.ct and similar Acts rather than 
for each one at different times. 

Motion agreed to; Bill discharged. 


Hon. D. PORTER (Attorney -General) moves second 
reading of Bill No. 73 Intituled, "An Act to provide 
for the making of Inquiries in connection with 
Hospitals, Sanltoria, Charitable Institutions and 
Other Organizations." 

He said: Mr. Speaker, I think I explained 
sufficiently full;y on the first reading what the 
purposes of the Bill were. I really have nothing to 
add on the second reading unless anj/ question arises 
with which you v;is'h to deal. 

Motion agreed to: second reading of the Bill. 

(Take "C" follows) 


r/R. OLIVLR: llr. Speaker, there are one or two 
questions which seem relevant at this time. In the 
first place, yesterday when the discussion arose on the 
first reading of the Bill, the hon. member for North 
Essex, and the mayor of 'Windsor (I'r. Reaume) asked the 
Hon. Attorney-General if there had been any discharging 
from the institution, and suggested there should be no 
discharges until the probe had actually been completed. 

In the Toronto Telegram of to-day there is a 
very pointed suggestion that the Hon. Minister of 
Health (Mr. Phillips) telephoned './indsor and asked 
that at least two officials of the hospital should 
vacate their positions imiiied lately. There seems to 
be some inconsistency there, and I would like to hear 
the Hon. Attorney-General on that point, 

M. PORTER: Vir, Speaker, there was no communi- 
cation whatsoever with any of the members of the 
Hospital Board other than the Chairman, who came in and 
made the complaint. There was no suggestion at any 
time made by myself, and I understand also none' by the 
Hon. Minister of Health, by telephone or otherwise, 
to any member of the Board or any official of the 
hospital that could be construed as a request that 
there be any official discharged. There was nothing. 


There vras no conmiunication at all. The report is based 
upon some other information, I do not know from where it 
comes, but it was not from either of the tx-jo govermnental 

I'\R. OLIVER: At this point, Mr. Speaker, I 

think I should read to the House from the Telegram: 

"Health I inister Phillips telephoned Dr. 
J'^organ, the Hospital Superintendent, and 
Ilrs. Madeline Campbell, asking them to vacate 
their positions immediately, and turn over all 
hospital documents and records to James E. 
Leckie, the iidministrator." 

'"That I want to ask the Hon. Attorney-General 
is, is that a correct statement? Is anyone being dis- 
charged from the institution, or has anyone been asked 
to vacate their position*? 

IS. PORTER: Nobody has been asked to vacate 
their position, by myself, or anyone in my Department, 
or by t he Hon. Minister of Health, or anyone in his 

As I stated on first reading, the Government 
has no authority to hire or discharge any member of 
the staff, or any member of the Governors of that 
institution. It is not a Provincial Hospital; in '. ■•. 
fact, it is not a municipal hospital, and if we did 
attempt to do that, the Act would be quite invalid, 
and we have not attempted to do it. The statement in 


the nevjspaper is not in accordance with the facts, 

I happened to have been informed to-day that 
at a meeting of the Board of Governors in '•Jindsor, there 
was some question arose as to v;hether certain people on 
the Board should be suspended, but t^iat is entirely an 
internal matter with the Board itself, and I do not know 
wliat they did, or anything about it. V/hether or not 
some confusion has resulted from what happened at the 
m.eeting of the Board in 'Jindsor, and what might have 
happened in one of the Government offices, may be the 
source of the story, because I have no doubt that whoever 
wrote the report, must have had som.e information which 
he believed to be reliable, 

MR. OLIVxirt: I should think so. 


I can assure the Hon. Leader 

of the Opposition that no such order, or direction, or 
comment or request came from either of the departments 
of the Government, 

IM. J. B, ^aLSB/.x^G (St. Andrew): Not even 
an insinuation? 

^m. PORTLR: lie did not communicate with any 
person down there at all. The only person with whom 
we were in communication was the Chairman of the 


Ml. OLIVER: Mr. Speaker, before the second 
reading is passed, I want to say to the Hon. Attorney- 
General that, as a layman, it seems an unusual piece 
of legislation; It is legislation with wice application 
and deals with a specific problem, lay I ask the Hon. 
Attorney-General, in relation to that, whether there 
are pending other inquiries, of which he is aware at 
the moment, or is this legislation destined to deal, 
at the moment at least, with this one par'^icular inci- 
dent in Windsor, and if so, does the Hon. Attorney- 
General think it is wise for us to put on the Statute 
Books a Bill with such wide application, -!;. d deal with 
this particular incident? 

im. PORTLR: Mr. Speaker, I think .it is very 
wise, indeed, to have wide, general legisl-'tion of 
this kind. 

As I stated on first reading of this Bill, 
in 1949 a similar matter arose, and it happened to 
arise during the sittings of the Legislature, and it 
was possible to pass a special Act to deal with that 
particular matter. Matters of this kind, of course, 
might arise between sittings of the Legislature, and 
the Government would have no power to make such an 
inquiry, and we are always faced with the possibility 


of a situation arising in a charitable institution, 
or hospital -- 

MR. OLIVEii: Or the C.N.E. 

MR. PORTER: I do not think it comes under 
this Bill. ^'Je do not make any grant to the CN.E. 

IE. OLIVER: i\re you sure of that? 
However, we will come to that later. 

im. PORTER: The Hon. Provincial Treasurer 
(Mr, Frost) informs me we do not, 

MR. SjiLSBERG: Then it is about time you did, 

I'iR. PORTER: I am' sure the Hon. Treasurer 
would be the first one to say so, if we did. 

I'''R. OLIVER: You had better grant them a small 
amount, to bring them under this. 

W., PORTIiR: That, of course, could be con- 
sidered. VThen this was considered yesterday, we 
considered passing a special Act similar to the one 
passed in 1949, Tlhe whole question was considered, 
as to whether or not it might be desirable to give 
general powers of enquiry at this time, especially 
in view of the fact that the Province is very 
heavily interested financially in a great many of 
these institutions. It will enable the Government, 


between Sessions, to act promptly in inquiring into 
situations which arise, and questions of any irregula- 
rities, and whether there are any or not, and we can 
deal with these matters promptly as they arise, 

I submit, T'T. Speaker, that it would be 
unwise to limit our pov;ers to a special /ict to deal 
with this particular situation. 

Yesterday, when I introduced this Bill, I 
explained the reason why this Bill came to a head when 
it did. The special case of the hospital in 
^'Jindsor was the matter which came forward, and which 
drew this ty .^e of situation to our attention, "'e con- 
sidered it was a matter we had to deal v;ith promptly, 
if we were to deal with it at all, and it was then 
considered a wise thing to clothe ourselves with the 
power to deal vjith similar situations which might 
arise anywhere in the Province, at any time, during 
the Session or between Sessions, 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, 

THE CLiJRK-ASSISTiiKT: The First Order, resuming 
the adjourned debate on the amendm.ent to the amendment 
to the motion for an address in Reply to the opeech 
of the Honourable, the Lieutenants-Governor at the open- 
ing of the Session, Mr, Frost, 

Mr. Speaker retires. 

Mr. G. G. Johnston (Simcoe Centre) in the Chair. 


IB. V7. M. NICKLE (Kingston): Nr. Speaker, 
at the outset I would like to indicate in my humble 
way that when it ivas my privilege the other day to 
speak from my place in this xHouse in relation to the 
development of Hydro on the St. Lawrence, I did not 
forget to express my gratitude to the Hon. Prime 
I^inister (I'r. Frost), and the Hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Ir. Oliver), and the hon. member for 
Cochrane South (Mr. Grummett) with reference to the 
very kind things they said at the opening of this 
Session in February, when I and two of my colleagues 
were singled out as being the sons of former Ministers 
of the Crown in this Province. I believe it is only 
fair to say there are those in this House who are 
getting to know me, and, also, there are those who 
knew my father before me, and if I may be allowed 
to make a humble wish, it is that when you have the 
opportunity of judging me on my merits, and not as a 
satellite, you will be able to say that I am the 
worthy son of a worthy sire, 

I want to say, Ilr. Speaker, that the hon. 
members who spoke so graciously about me and my 


father at the opening of the oession, at the 
adjournment on that opening day, came to me and 
indicated that no matter what political stripe they 
might carry, they \'\ranted to give me every encourage- 
ment in trying to find my way around this cobweb of 
officialdom, known as the Parliament Buildings of the 
Province of Ontario. 

In my riding I have three very important 
islands, known as Tfolfe, Howe, and Amherst. They are 
rural, and the people on those islands nake their 
living from the cattle they raise, and from the 
milk the stock produces. 

When I was last in Kingston, representatives 
from those rural areas came to me and said that even 
though there had been a declaration in the Press that 
the foot and mouth disease had been arrested, they 
were apprehensive it had not been completely controlled 
They suggested to me that the Hon. Minister of 
Agriculture (Mr, Kennedy) should take into considera- 
tion the suggestion that these community sales should 
have some supervision from the Department, to the 
effect that any stock sold at those sales should 
have a certificate of health from a qualified veter- 
inarian. I believe, RCr. Speaker, in the old adage 
that, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure/* 


and it does seem to me that the people in Eastern 
Ontario, who have had no reason to be apprehensive 
about this disease, should have every protection from 
the Department in charge, 

Mr. Speaker, coming as I do from a county 
town — and there are other hon. members in a position 
similar to my own — we have a problem in relation 
to civil litigation, which goes on in our area. 
This is something which should arrest the attention 
of all hon. members in this House, and particularly 
the Hon, Attorney-General, because he knows 

-- being a lawyer -- that we have in our county 
town two sittini^s of the Assize Courts, that is. to say, 
sittings of the Supreme Court of Ontario, the highest 
court we have in the Province, of Ontario. 

When a criminal case comes up for a 
hearing, and the accused person has elected to be 
tried by a judge and jury, the law requires that a man 
who has been accused of a crime must have his case 
heard first, and time, and time, and time again, Mr, 
Speaker, civil litigants who believe they have 
meritorious actions, have had their cases prepared, 
and through their solicitors have had them, as we 
say, "set down for hearing'', which means the record 


has been completed, the case is on the "ready" 
list, but it is discovered, at the end of the time 
allotted for the Assize Judge, that there is no more 
time, for the simple reason that the learned justice 
must be in some other county town on the following 

The hon. member for Cochrane South (Mr, 
Grummett ) nods his head in approval, and he may know 
some of the experiences which I am trying to bring to 
the attention of the Hon. Attorney-General, 

It seems to me that the Hon. Prime Minister, 
who seems to be a fairly good negotiator, should discuss 

with the Department of Justice of the Dominion of 
Canada, the question of having more Supreme Court Judges 
appointed. Then they need be given no list^, no 
particular places to go, no city or town to preside 
in, whether there are Assize Courts or Non-Jury Courts, 
Thonwhen a list has not been completed, the litigants 
WHO have, perhaps, brought witnesses from great distances, 

need not have their cases peremptorily disposed of by 
being told their case must wait until the next sittings 
of the Court. 

I can best illustrate that, Mr, Speaker, by 




saying we had an Assize Court in i-iapanee. There was 
a certain civil action to be heard. I v/as in it at 
the time. Now I am not. That is the price I paid 
for being elected , I passed on my brief to other 
counsel, Mapanee is given only a week for hearing 
these cases, and this case had to be brought up again, 
Twice , now, these people, who have committed no offence, 
and who have brought a witness from, as far away as 
Calgary to give evidence on facts, not on a^matter 
of the law, have been told their case will not be 
proceeded with. It seems to me that courts in this 
Province should not be considered as being constituted 
for the Supreme Court Justices, but the fundamental 
principle in effect at the beginning should be followed: 
that is, that the courts are there for the people, and 
they should have their rights adjudicated upon as and 
when there is a court. 

I may say to the hon. members, because I think 
they may be interested, that there are only four sittings 
of the Supreme Court in any county town in any year. 
The Hon, Attorney-General knows that. Two of these 
courts are Assizes, and two are Non-Jury courts. In 
other words, a man may lose a tremendous amount of 
money if he cannot get his case- on for trial. 


There are hon. members of this House in the 
legal profession who practice their profession in the 
City of Toronto. Here, they have courts everyday of 
every week of every month, except July and August, in 
the City Hall and Osgoode Hall, but the little county - 
town litigants seem to be forgotten in the turmoil 
and rush of legal procedure. 

I noticed that to-day the Hon. Provincial 
Secretary tabled the report from the Inspector of 
Legal Offices, and if this matter has not yet been 
brought to his attention, he might just as well do it 
from now on. 

(Take "D" follows) 



With those of us v;ho come from small places, we think 
that our constituents should have their rights judicated 
on in just the same fashion as those vv'ho live in the 
larger centres. I suggest and with some confidence I am 
making the suggestion, that the Department of Justice 
should name some more Supreme Court Justices and form 
a pool that can be called upon whether it is a jury 
case or not, when it is on the list, so as to dispose 
of it. 

These days we hear a considerable amount about 
the cutting down of our rights as a'*Dominion*^ and I use 
that v/ord with all sincerity, I do suggest to the hon« 
Acting Minister of Highways that in future, commencing 
in 1953, if there are going to be any steel markets for 
motor cars, on each marker there should be a crown. 
Everything is being cut down that is werth v/hile. Some 
of the best men I ever knew, some of the best friends I 
ever had, the cream of this country, in my day, I left 
behind in France and Flanders because they believed 1ft 
the Crown. I am getting thoroughly disgusted with the 
way it is being pared down, and I say v/e should put it 
on every marker and let every tourist know we stand by 
the Crovvn and we recognize it. Too much infringement is 
not good. 

Down in my area there is a piece of highv/ay 


which Is dippy, hilly, full of curves, and crooked. 
In my opinion, it is the worst piece of provincial 
highway in the Province of Ontario. No Government, 
whether it be Liberal or Oonservative, can be blamed 
of this piece of highv/ay, because they have all had their 
fair share of responsibility in governing it. It is 
what I would call in a death-trap condition. To 
Illustrate my point, knowing sons thing of the law of 
negligence and having regard to the fact that in 
relation to the increased motor traffic on our highways, 
the farther an operator of a motor car can see ahead, 
the less chance there is for an accident. The more 
curves, the more dips, the more hills, the more accidents, 
On this piece of highway between Kingston and Gananogue, 
in 1946, there were forty-six accidents, one person 
killed; in 1948, , forty-seven accidents, and four people 
killed; in 1949, eighty-tvi'o accidents and one person 
killed; in 1950, there were one hundred and three 
accidents and nobody killed; up to November, 1951, there 
were seventy-seven accidents, nobody killed. 

East of Gananoq^ue and leading into Brockville, 
there is what is knovm as a"two S" highway, this is 
the scenic highway running along the shores of the St. 
Lawrence River. And in 1947, because that piece of 
highway is straight, there weve no accidents. In 1948, 


there were five accidents; in 1949, there \vere forty- 
five accidents and in 1950, there v/ere thirty- tv/o. In 
all of those five or six years, only two people have 
been killed. It seems to ae that the life of the 
operator of the motor vehicle must be estimated in some 
way in dollars and cents. I do say, speaking on behalf 
of the people of eastern Ontario, and I reconmiend with 
all sincerity that I can bring to bear, that that 
stretch of highv/ay from Napanee down to Gananoque , 
a distance of about 50 miles, should, if possible, be 
considered, if not all, at least in part, in the high- 
way program that v.dll commence this spring, 

Mr, Speaker, there is another point I want 
to bring to your attention. On this matter, I am only 
speaking as a lawyer, but when a lawyer who is interested 
in court procedure takes part in a civil action arising 
out of a motor car accident, where there has been personal 
injury or damages to the motor car, one of the first things 
the counsel says to the operator, is, "Do you know the 
law that v/here t'.vo vehicles approach an intersection, 
at one and the same time, the car on the right shall 
have the right - of -v/ay". It is surprising the number of 
people who do not know that rule of the road. It Is 
all very well for lawyers to ask these questions, some 
of us ask them because w.e like them; others ask them 

liS ■ :ii 


because we are attracted by the fee that is permitted 

for time in the courtroom. '. However, be that as it 

may, I suggest that v/hen a motor car license is given, 

in each case a little circular should be handed 

out summarizing the rules of the road. It would not 

take long to print and those v>/ho get the licenses would 

have some idea of the resx)onsibilios and the obligations 

resting on them, in relation to the way they operate 

their cars, 

I said a moment ago that the law, under the 

Highway Traffic Act, Section 41, is: 

"Y/here two vehicles approach an intersection, at 
one and the same time, the car on the right shall 
have the right-of-way". 

Not long ago, there vas a case tried in Kingston 

which I T/ouLd like to briag to the -ttontion of the. hon, 

Attorney-G-eneral (Hr. Porter). You would know, just as 

well as I do, that if there is a red light against you, 

you have to stop, if there is a green light with you, 

you can go through. However, there is a section which 

says that : 

"V/hen an amber light illuminated by rapid 
intermittent flashes is shov/n at the inter- 
section, the driver or operator of a vehicle 
or of a car of an electric railway, which is 
approaching the intersection facing such light, 
may proceed throu^^h the intersection, only with 


The Chief Justice of Ontario heard this action. 
The case was appealed, and then, unfortunately, the 
appeal was dropped. This is the first time that 
section was ever construed by a learned judge of the 
Supreme Court and the top man was on the bench, the 
Chief Justice. 

I said before that the vehicle on the right, 
under the rules of the road, has the right-of-way, and 
counsel for the transport on the right took the position 
that this section should read that the vehicles must 
enter the intersection, with a flashing amber light, 
with caution, subject to section 1 of the Act, which 

"The car on the right has the right -of -vi^ay". 

The opinion expressed in the judgmect' which 
I have here on my desk, by the learned Chief Justice, 
was this, that the commonlaw rule applied, that is to 
say, that the first car into the intersection had the 
right to go through if there was a flashing amber 
light. I am going to suggest to the hon. Attorney- 
General (Mr. Porter) that sub-section 2 of sub-section 
"g" of section 41 of the Highway Traffic Act, should 
be amended at this Session of the Legislature, so that 
it will read that where there is an amber light 
flashing at intersections, the car on the right has 
no more right than the car on the left. Both must 


approach with caution and the common law rule should 
apply. That is Important to every person in your 
respective ridings who operates a motor car. 

Another question, Mr, Speaker, that always 
comes up for consideration before learned magistrates, 
county court judges, and Supreme Court judges, and in 
which there does not seem to be any unanimity, is in 
connection with what should be accepted in Section 
110 of the Highway Traffic Act, which reads: 

"Every person in charge of a motor vehicle 
who is directly or indirectly involved in 
an accident, shall, if the accident results 
in personal injuries, or in damage to 
property apparently exceeding |50,00, must 
report the accident forthwith to the nearest 
provincial or municipal police officer — " 

I do not know whether you get it or not, Mr, 
Speaker, but the important word in that section is 
"shall". He has to do it, he cannot help himself. 
Now, some learned judges say that if the person who 
was involved in the accident does not say to the investi- 
gating police officer, ''I claim privilege, I will tell 
you what happened, but if I am sued you cannot use it 
in the law court", then, they take the position that is 
admissible evidence, I do not think everybody who is 
involved in an accident has to take a preliminary 
course in relation to what is admissible and what is in- 
admissible from the point of view of evidence, I think 


this section should be amended to say that any statements 
given to a police officer as the result of an accident, 
shall not be admissible in any trial before any court 
of competent jurisdiction whether civil or criminal. 
How in the world are we going to make people answer 
questions and then turn around and use their answers 
against them? It seems to me very inconsistent. There 
is a very recent decision of Treflin versus Donovan 
reported in Ontario VJeekly Notes, 1951, at page 524, 
where the Chief Justice of Ontario considered t his 
whole question. He takes the position that unless 
the person involved in the accident does not claim 
privilege, then, per se that is evidence against that 
individual. I think it is bad lav;. I go a step 
further and I say it is unfair, because the Act says 
you have to make a statement; you have to make it, 
according to law. I suggest this for consideration 
by the hon. Attorney-General (Mr. Porter). 

Another question that is arresting the attention 
of the legal profession, is the question of solicitors 
who are not members of the Law Society of Upper Canada, 
going around in different areas and soliciting as 
agents for trust companies and drawing of wills. The 
hon. Attorney-General (Mr. Porter) and indeed, every 
lawyer in this House, will subscribe to this obser- 
vation, that the legal profession of the Province of 


Ontario is regulated by our own elected Discipline 
Comiiiittse who are called the "Bencher s"^ The Benchers 
can take the only thing that is worth while to us away 
from us should we be guilty of professional misconduct, 
and that is our gown. Our gown is our certificate of 
office. Each and every solicitor who practices the 
profession in the Province of Ontario must pay to the 
Law Society of Upper Canada, every year, first, a 
solicitor's fee, and then a barrister's fee and he may, 
if he wishes, subscribe to the annual statutes. We are 
recognized as solicitors and qualified as draughtsmen 
to draw the ordinary wills, Hov/ever, the situation in 
Kingston has become so bad in relation to the trust 
companies sending out solicitors in their employ, who 
are not members of the Lav/ Society of Upper Canada, that 
the other day the 7rontenac Law Association — for those 
of you who are not solicitors, I should tell you that 
the county tov/n in every county is part of the Law 
Association, Kingston is the county tov/n for Frontenac 
and Yje have some twenty-three solicitors in our bar, 
\'V"e have some outstanding men who have proved themselves 
as extremely able counsel — passed thi's resolution, 
sent to me by the secretary of our Organization, Mr, 
Hugh Gibson, a copy of it has gone forv/ard to the 
benchers of the Law Society and a copy has gone forward 


to the Kingston Bencher, and also to the gentleman in 

charge of this q^uestion in the Law Society, I want to 

read you the resolution: 

"That in the opinion of the Front enac Law 
Association, the extensive advertising of 
certain trust companies in the Kingston Whig- 
Standard, stressing the importance that a 
trust company should he the executors of a 
testator's estate and not the members of the 
faraily and/or trusted friends and that the 
personal solicitation by certain trust companies 
in and around the city of Kingston to have 
testators drav/ their wills and name a trust 
company their executor and that the drav/ing of 
wills by trust company employees, not members 
of the Lav.' Society of Upper Canada, is a practice 
that is detrimental to the members of the local 
bar and the legal profession of Ontario and 
that said practice should be peremptorily 
stopped and that a copy of this resolution, if 
carried, should be sent to The Honourable, 
the Attorney-General for Ontario, Dana Porter, 
Q,.G,, The Secretary of the Law Society of 
Upper Canada, George T, V/alsh, Q,.C. , Toronto, 
T. J. Rigney, Q,.C., Kingston, Benchers of the 
Law Society of Upper Canada and to W. M. 
Nickle, Q.C., M.P.P. for Kingston." 

I suggest to the hon. Attorney-General (Mr. 

Porter) who by virtue of his office, is a Bencher of 

the Law Society,, that the encroachment of the rights 

of the little man in the little tov/ns should be protected 

against the encroachment that is now being made by the 

mighty trust companies in the smaller cities. 

(Take "E" follows) 


As I understand it, no barrister or • 
solicitor can advertise; you cannot put an ad In 
the local newspaper that you are a solicitor, that you 
have studied the law on wills, that you knew all about 
wills, and can ^ive sound advice about wills. That 
-S propaganda, sinister as it ma^ be, which is having 
the effect that when these trust company advertise- 
ments appeal- . in the local newspapers^ it seems 
that local solicitors begin to wonder about the testators 
and what sort of advice you are giving when you say 
that "it may be your wife, it may be your friends" 
unless probably the hon, member from South Cochrane 
(Mr. Grummett) will agree and convert the trust for 
a gift over, and a life interest in between. In a 
case like that I do not know whether trust companies 
might be the executors and trustees if a capital 
Investment is going to be held over a long period of 
time, but it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. 
Attorney -General of this Province (Mr. Porter) must 
take some kind of action to stop this advertising in 
the local newspapers of county towns and small 
places, or else see to it that the solicitors have 
the right to advertise to counteract this policj' . 
With some confidence I submit that for the informa- 
tion of the hon. the Attorne;y General. 

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to ^ ou that 
as far as my public life is concerned, I do not know 
what the future holds for me. It reall^^ does not 
make too much difference, because if I happen to fall 


bj/ the wayside^ should there be another general 
election I can go back to the practice of law which 
I did not quite realize I was so fond of and to which I 
was sort of wedded, until this House opened and 
I handed over my briefs. 

For a quarter of a centur-^ I have spent my 
life in the courts. It is a grand place. I am 
older than some of the practitioners in Kingston. 
The Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) in his opening remarks 
the other day, made some reference to the fact that he 
and I were classmates. My hair is a little thinner 
than his, but he is a little grayer than I; for all 
that we were in law school twenty-five vears ago. 
A new crop of lawyers is coming along and it seems 
to me that those of us who are the senior members of 
the profession owe a duty to the young fellows to 
watch the encroachment that is being made on the 
profession, by reason of the advertising and the 
canvassing that is going on. It is so eas^ for 
those who know where money is, to tell the canvasser 
where to find it, and that is the sort of thing I 
do not like about this canvassing. 

As I said before, Mr. Speaker, my 
political future, I suppose, is Just what I want 
to make out of it, but just so long as I am in public 
life I propose to take a course of conduct where I 
shall stand for freedom of speech, freedom of worship, 
freedom from fear and freedom of the press. I 
shall stand in support of responsible government which 


I believe to be a government 'bf the people"-- I like 
those words -- "of the people", by the people and for 
the people, arid that is the sort of certificate 
I want to adopt as my political creed while I am in 
public life, and I think if I do that I cannot go 
too far wrong. 

Perhaps, Mr. Speaker. I might tell you an 
amusing incident* V/hen one of Her Majesty's learned 
judges comes on to the bench ^ robed in the gown of his 
office, those of us who are at the Bar rise in our 
places, and when the learned Justice adjourns court 
and walks off the bench, as a matter of practice ^we 
respectfully rise. I was only in this House twenty - 
four hours when I was called to order because I stood 
to attention when the Speaker left the Chair, which 
just goes to show that when you are trained as a 
lawyer and not a parliamentarian you soon get into 
deep water. 

The one thing I am trying to illustrate by 
that is that I have been trained for twenty-five 
years to have respect for the administration of 
justice. Mr. Speaker.- I believe that the adminis- 
tration of justice is the cornerstone of 
democracy and if democracy fails, then everything 
else. goes with it, and in this day and generation 
our critics -- and there are critics -- will do 
their best to bring about a contempt for and disregard 
of the administration of justice, with the sinister 
motive of trying to wreck democracy and all the 
decency that democracy stands for. Those are 


the things we should be on guard against. 

There are vicious, subversive elements at 
work in this province. They will do everything 
they can do to wreck respect for law and order. That 
is one thing I am going to fight, as long as I am 
in public life. From the espionage trials at Athens 
one cannot help but question whether free nations 
should allow the communist party to continue its 
existence as a legal entity. These trials have heavily 
emphasized the fact that the only function cf the 
communist party in a non-communist nation is espionage 
or sabotage or a combination of both. I am convinced 
there is another function which has been produced, 
and that is temporary quiescence in the face of 
negative evidence, and we have yet to read of a positive 
communist effort which was not detrimental t o free 
nations, free peoples. As far as I am concerned 
I am against communism in that form and all that it 

I believe as I said a moment ago, there is a 
certain trust owing to old soldiers who were left 
behind. They were the b est friends we ever had, men 
who represented the cream of the nation. They are 
lying all over liVestern Europe, because they believed 
in a free people, free democracy, the right for 
free speech and everything that is fine. That is the 
reason we have our memorial tablets, that is the 
reason we have our plaques. The best we had we gave 
for these principles. 


If there Is any British blood In our veins 

there is not a greater time in our political life 

than now to refer to and adopt the words of the 

great Macdonald, which shall be my creed. It is a 

worthwhile thought. It is a challenge, Mr. 

Speaker, to. us today. It is an honour, and a 

privilege to be elected to parliament. In this 

House you rise and ^ ou speak, and ^. ou are speaking to 

the Province of Ontario, ka 1 said before, what 

happens to me in public life does not count much, but 

as long as I am here I am going to have but one creed ^^ 

and that is going to be in the words of Macdonald, 

the first Prime Minister of this nation, who is 

remembered in my historic riding of Kingston by 

what he said and I will stand or fall -- and I ask 

each and every member of this House to do likewise -- 

on v;hat he said: 

"a British subject I was born; 
a British subject I will die." 

Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair 


MR. R. M. MYERS (Waterloo South): Mr. Speaker 
I would like to preface what I have to say by saying 
that I subscribe very heartily to the patriotic views 
expressed by m^ friend who Just spoke, but I wish to 
dissociate myself -- and I cannot do it quickly 
enough -- from the remarks of the hon. member for 
Hamilton Centre (Mr. Warrender) in so far as thej; 
relate to the disfranchising of members of the 
communist party in Canada. 

I say this, not because I agree in any way 
with the views and policy of that party, but because 
I hold the firm belief that so long as the majority of 
us in Canada are of average intelligence and education 
-- and the recent election shows conclusively that 
the people of Ontario at least are of more than 
average intelligence -- and so long as there is no 
suppression of anyone's views on any subject what- 
soever, and no suppression of the truth, we need 
have no fear that Canada will share the fate of the 
countries behind the iron curtain. 

I need hardly say that the great achievement of 
democracy -- in fact the very heart of the democratic 
principle -- is the theory that everyone ought to have 
an equal right to share in the business of government. 
I hope -- in fact I can say I am certain -- that my 
views on this subject are shared by the great majority 
of the hon. members of this House. 

I should like to sa^. a few words at this time 
about two matters which are of great interest to us 


in Waterloo South and also affect residents in 
other portions of the province. 

The first is the problem which has arisen 
throughout that part of our province, largely given 
over to industry, where large blocks of suburban or 
agricultural lands have been annexed to our cities- 
I live in the Township of North Dumfries which sur- 
rounds the City of Gait, and my remarks, which have 
reference to m^/ own township, are equally applicable 
to most of the rural municipalities adjoining our 
cities in Southern Ontario. 

Gait, as you know, is a prosperous small 
cltj'; it has many thriving industries and hopes to 
acquire many more, and with a view to providing for 
this increase the City of Gait caused I500 acres of 
lands of the Township of North Dumfries to be annexed 
to it during the last two „ears, and all this is 
eight and proper and in the natural course of 

Now the Township of North Dumfries consisted 
of ^4,000 acres comprising generally lands of three 
types, namel^^ a considerable quantit;^ of rolling, 
stony land of no great use for agriculture; farming 
land of good quality, and I50O acres of fine level 
land adjoining the limits of the City of Gait and 
used for industrial sites and residential purposes . 
This 150^ acres is the land which has recentl;;; been 
annexed to the city, and the annexation presents 
the following problem: 


While in area the land annexed represents 
only 3.''+ per cent of the total, it was so well built 
up and so valuable that it represents a loss of 37 
per cent of the total assessment of the township. 

At the moment, and for some years to come, 
there are no economies the council of the township 
can practice that will enable the township council 
to carry on except on the basis of a very large 
increase in the taxation of those who are left 
in It. 

It is true that there are not so many roads 
to keep up now, but the reduction in road maintenance 
costs is but a flea bite, since onlj. 3-^ per cent 
of the township's lands were lost as compared with 
37 per cent of its source of revenue. 

While it is true that in the course of 
time a new fringe of valuable land will develop in 
that part of the township adjoining the new limits 
of the City of Gait, that will take years to ac- 
complish and in the meantime, I submit, some addi- 
tional srant or other form of relief ought to be 
made in partial compensation, at least for the 
loss of the township lands formerly yielding more 
than one-third of the revenue of the municipality/ . 

If the business of a rural municipality 
could be conducted in the same wa^ as the business of 
a commercial corporation, a reserve fund could have 
been built up to meet the contini^^ency , but of course 
any such far-sighted policy is not possible to 


municipal corporations and the hardship must fall, 
uncushioned, on shoulders of the remaining in- 

I mention the matter in the hope that the 
plight of rural municipalities in the same condition 
as the Township of North Dumfries will be brought 
to the attention of the Governm nt and some measure 
of relief be afforded them for a few years in some 
manner that ma;;, be made clear to those Departments 
of the Government charged with the guidance of our 
farmers, throu'^h the mazes of modern municipal 
finance . 

And there is another matter, Mr. Speaker, 
about which I would like to say a word or two and 
which affects us all indirectly, and directly 
affects those of us who live in the counties of 
Wellington, Dufferin, Waterloo and Brant; in other 
words the inhabitants of the Grand River watershed, 
one of the richest areas in Canada. This is the 
matter of flood control on the Grand River. 

Perhaps I ought to begin my remarks by saying 
that we in the Grand Valley live in constant fear of 
annual floods. I need not mention that on the banks 
of this river, where it flows through our cities and 
towns, are many fine factories, most of them busy 
in the production of war materials, and on the banks 
of this river, in our urban municipalities and more 
particularly in Gait, are ou-' business sections with 
their stores, public buildings and churches, as well 
as many homes. Almost every year, Mr. Speaker, 


there Is a flood -- and some years more than one -- 
which covers the lower floors of many of our build- 
ings, stoppins production in our factories and 
causing great misery to many of our householders. 
Without wishing to be dramatic In any way, I say 
it fills one's heart with sorrow to see one of 
these floods at its peak -- factories closed 
and flooded, muddy waters rushing through the 
dwellings on the river banks, and our merchants 
trying to save the merchandise stocked in basements. 
Those of us who have observed the sight feel very 
sad to see the pitiful efforts at salvaging after 
the flood waters recede. 

Some of you may think that if people choose 
to build on the bank of the Grand they ought not to 
complain of floods, but it was not always thus. 
Records show that the severity of the flood con- 
ditions are constantly Increasing. Not only have 
there been twice as many floods in recent years as 
was formerly the case, but in the last twenty years 
the flow during the peak of the flood has increased 
on the average by over 20 per cent . 

I need hardly remind '^oxx, Mr. Speaker, or 
the hon. members, that the mud in the raging 
flood waters represents some of the finest farm 
lands washed away forever. 

I might say that in the Grand Valley water- 
shed are four major streams -- the Grand, Speed, 
Nith and Conestogo, and I might point out a peculiar 


characteristic of the Conestogo River: its flow 
at peak of flood is three times its flow the day 
before the peak. The increase of the other rivers 
in the same period is much less. Records show 
that at peak of flood the Conestogo has a s«bp 
substantially greater flow than the Nith and Speed 
combined. A dam has already been built to control 
the headwaters of the Grand, and it is apparent 
that if something be done to control the floods 
on the Conestogo the end of our troubles will be 
in sight. 

In addition to our problems in times of 
flood, we also have our trouble in times of low 
water as well, and low water troubles are these: 
the flow of the Grand through Gait, before the con- 
struction of the Shand Dam dropped from a peak 
12,000 cubic feet per second at peak of flood fo a 
mere/ average 155 cubic feet per second in August. 
Sewage from the cities and towns of Fergus, Waterloo, 
Kitchener, Preston, Gait, Brantford and Dunnville 
is poured into the Grand -- most of this xk^ 
sewage is either untreated or has received primary 
treatment onl: -- at the estimated rate of 35 cubic 
feet per second, and it is apparent, therefore, that 
a large percentage of the total flow of the Grand 
River during the summer months is sewage. While 
the average flow during August is 155 cubic feet 
per second, in times of drought this flow has dropped 
to as little as 26 cubic feet per second, and the only 
water in the river at these times of minimum flow is 


sewage . 

The minimum ^recommended flow is 350 cubic 
fe-et per second. 

Some time prior to 19^2 steps were begun 
to remedy this situation and such steps consisted 
of a general survey of the situation, the recom- 
mendation being that ultimately/ five or six dams 
be built at various points and the construction of 
a dam on the river near Fergus. The dam at Fergus, 
which is known as the Shand Dam, was completed in 

The Shand dam provides a storage for 
50,000 acre feet of water, but this is insufficient to 
check the flood at its peak, and Grand River municipa- 
lities suffered two severe floods since its com- 

In 1951 a small dam, known as the Luther 
dam, was completed at a cost of $250,000, which will 
give storage for an additional 10,oOO acre feet, 
but this will not in itself be adequate to remedy 
the situation. 

The best engineering opinion available is 
to the effect that a dam on the Conestogo River, 
which will provide storage for an additional 
45,000 acre feet of water^. will give such a 
measure of protection as to prevent damage by 
peak flood conditions in normal ;/ears, and this 
project has been carried to the point where tenders 
may be called for anfi the work proceeded with. 




The cost will be four and one half million dollars. 

Now the Shand dam was built with moneys 
supplied by the Dominion Government ^ the Province 
and the municipalities benefiting by the works. 
Over half of the works required to give relief have 
been completed -- the greater portion of this ten 
years ago -- and it seems to me a great waste of 
time and effort if the construction of the dam on 
the Conestogo River is not proceeded with at once. 
The cost of this work is small indeed compared with 
our periodic flood damage, and while both the 
province and the municipalities now are and have 
been willing and eager to proceed, construction 
has been held up due to the reluctance of the 
Dominion Government to make its contribution. 

Mr. Speaker, we have all read of the huge 
surplus the Minister of Finance has built up, a 
surplus to vjhich the inhabitants of the Grand 
River watershed have contributed more than their 
fair share. A delegation from the Grand River 
Conservation Commission is about to proceed to 
Ottawa for the purpose of making another effort to 
have the Dominion Government contribute towards the 
cost of a dam on the Conestogo. I am asking Mr. 
Howie Meeker, our member of parliament from Waterloo 
South, to do all in his power to forward the efforts 
of the delegation, and I hope that the appropriate 
Department of the Ontario Government will make known 


to Ottawa the urgency of the situation, the willingness 
of the province and municipalities to contribute , and 
the justice of the cause of the delegation. 

(Take "F" follows) 


131. K. ^^HITK::! (Prince Edward-Lenncx) : Mr. 
Speaker, in rising to take some part in the Throne 
Debate, I wish to recall to the members of the House 
that a few days ago when the Twenty-Fourth Legislature 
of the Province of Ontario net for the first time, and 
the first duty of this Le^/islature was the election of 
a Speaker, after the hon. member from Windsor-''7alkerville 
had been duly elected and installed in his Chair, he 
addressed the House, and in the course of his remarks 
he said that, "It will be my highest aim to listen to 
the debates with sympathy and your questions with kind- 
ness, and to your needs with due regard," 

Mr; Speaker, it is the opinion of a great 
many of the people of Ontario and of myself that this 
high aim you so well expressed has applied and will 
continue to apply not only to j^ourself but to the 
Hon. Prime Minister and the hon. mem-bers of the Cabinet, 
I believe that this attitude is reflected in every 
Department of our Government where it has been my 
experience that the questions and needs of our con- 
stituents are received with kindness and treated with 
due regard. 

As I have had the honour of serving in the 
County Council of the County of Price Edward for several 
years, it is perhaps natural that since the people of 


Edward-Lennox gave me the great honour of representing 
them in this Legislature, I would consciously or un- 
consciously be comparing the duties of the members of 
this Legislature with the duties of the mem.bers of a 
County Council, and I find m.any points of similarity. 
Often a man is induced to enter municipal affairs 
because of some particular things that he seeks to 
obtain for his own local township, such as improved county 
roads for instance, but before very long he will discover 
that the representatives of the other municipalities 
have problems also, similar to and at other 
times differing from his own. To be a good County 
Councillor he Eiust not only endeavour to serve his own 
municipality but to give the same careful consideration 
to the problems of other municipalities, in the realiza- 
tion that he now has a part to play in the municipal 
government of his county as well as his town, village 
or township. That same condition m.ust exist in any 
successful Government, and the results of the last 
Provincial election would clearly indicate that the 
Government, led by the Hon, Prime I'inister and his 
Hon. Ministers, has given consideration to the problems 
not only of the counties and districts comprising 
this great Province of Ontario, but of the individual 
needs of the people residing therein, I need but 


mention the names of the various Departments of this 
Government — Agriculture, Attorney-General, Education, 
Health, Highways, Hydro, Labour, Lands and Forests, 
Mines, I'unicipal Affairs, Planning and Development, 
Provincial Secretary, Public Welfare, Public "'/orks, 
Reform Institutions and Travel and Publicity — to 
recall to our minds the many ways in which service 
is being given to people of all ages and all occupa- 
tions in every part of our Province, 

Many times municipal ratepayers make sugges- 
tions to their local Councils, and sometimes these 
suggestions are good and the local Councils are able 
to adopt them. At other times a request that might 
seem at first to be a small favour, soon if granted 
becom-es a privilege and eventually a God-given right, 
and unless a Council feels that it can afford to 
grant this favour to all of its ratepayers in a 
similar situation, and continue to do so year after 
year, it is very unv/ise to create any such precedent. 
Some of the people that shout the loudest for increased 
services will also find the m.ost fault about the in- 
creased taxation that becomes necessary in order to 
provide those services. This same situation is true 
of any Government, and I feel that the Hon. Prime 


Minister and his Government have not as yet been 
induced to make promises that if carried out would 
require the imposition of nevj taxes, i-^hich in turn 
v^ould adversely affect our progress. 

Unfortunately our municipalities have had to 
meet new demands and higher costs, and despite tne 
greatly increased assistance that they have been re- 
ceiving from this Provincial Government, there is a 
general feeling in many of the municipalities of our 
Province that they are receiving too small a propor- 
tion of the total amount of taxation dollars that are 
collected in our country as related to the aLiount of 
money that they are asked to provide for education and 
the other services demanded by their own ratepayers. 
Aside from the assistance provided by the Province, 
most municipalities have to rely almost entirely on 
the taxes they levy against real estate, and where 
these taxes are unreasonably high they not only create 
a hardship for the property owner taut are likely to 
induce a prospective industry to locate elsewhere. 

Special difficulties arise when the people ' 
who are employed in industries located in one muni- 
cipality build homes in an adjacent municipality which 
is largely rural and does not receive the benefits of 
industrial taxes to help pay its increased costs for 



education, etc. The Department of ]^funicipal Affairs, 
under the able leadership of the Hon. Minister, has 
endeavoured to assist the municipalities in many ways, 
and I am confident that it will be the policy of his 
Department and of this Government to continue, and if 
possible to increase, the assistance being given to 
the municipalities. 

The Statement that "the tvjo certain things 
in this xvorld are death and taxes" was first made 
years ago, but is probably even more true today. The 
people v/ho don't have to pay much in real estate taxes 
nevertheless do pay taxes -- customs and excise, sales 
tax, income tax and other taxes, of which to my know- 
ledge no part except a grant of ,^1,000 per bed for 
the construction of a hospital, is paid to our munici- 
palities to assist them in providing those services 
which they must provide for their residents whether 
or not or to what extent they are ratepayers. The 
Provincial Government recognizes the principle that 
a portion of the revenue which they collect should be 
returned to the municipalities. Is it not time that 
the Federal Government recognized that same principle? 

Good roads and highways are a matter of 
concern to all of us, and I f eel t hat in speaking of 
the unfortunate accident to the Hon. Kinister of 


Highv;ays, my personal regrets are shared by all munici- 
pal councils in the Province of Ontario, and by all 
v/ho have had the opportunity of becoming in any way 
acquainted with the Hon. Llinister, either personally 
or through some knov/ledge of the wonderful job he has 
been doing as I'inister of Highways. He is the first 
Minister of Highways who has nade an effort to visit 
each County Council annually, and although many of 
the requests he has received have been deferred or re- 
jected — how to provide the money is always a 
problem — nevertheless he has always shown an under- 
standing and appreciation of the road problems of 
municipalities and given them due regard. The people 
of Ontario appreciate his good work in connection 
with our Provincial highv/ay system, and I am sure 
that all will join vjith me in the hope that he soon 
may become completely recovered and able to continue 
the fine job he has been doing. 

As through municipal experience in recent 
years I caraetto have some knowledge of the fine work 
of the Department of Highways and the Department of 
Municipal Affairs, and the good Government in general 
that we have been receiving in the Province of 
Ontario, it was inevitable that I should come into 
contact with some of the problems administered by . 


the Department of Public T'Jelfare. As a result of 
the consideration shown by this Department, both to 
the people requiring assistance, and to the munici- 
palities of this Province which are often in partnership 
with the Province in providing this assistance, I, 
like so many others, have had reason to appreciate 
the sincere desire of the Hon. Minister of Public 
Welfare to see to it that the people of this Province, 
who through physical disability, extreme old age, or 
unfortunate circumstances, were unable to take care 
of themselves, should not be in want. I am sure that 
the people of Ontario have appreciated the public welfare 
policy of the Hon. Minister of that Department, and 
along v;ith myself hope that the Hon. Minister is restored 
in health and will be able to continue the direction 
of that Department which he has so capably administered. 

Until now I have been speaking of my impres- 
sions of the Government as related to my municipal 
eaperience, but in addition to those Departments which 
deal directl}'- with our municipalities, there are, as 
you all know, several other important Departments of 
our Government which under the capable leadership of 
the Hon. Ministers thereof have given great service to 
our people. 


Before dealing witxi some of those matters 
that are of particular interest to the people of 
Prince Edward-Lennox, I would like to say something 
that I believe will be of particular interest to the 
Hon. Minister of Reform Institutions, Recently the 
Superintendent of the Prince Edward County Children's 
Aid Society called at the Cobourg School for Younger 
Boys, in order to visit three boys who had formerly 
been under her care. She told me that she was very 
much impressed by the improvement she saw in these 
boys and the entire atmosphere in this school. These 
boys were given permission to conduct her through 
the school unattended, and took a great deal of pride 
in doing so. I thought that this was something that 
the hon, members of this House might like to know. 

The riding of Prince Edward-Lennox is pre- 
dominantly rural, and visitors to our two counties 
are generally impressed with the natural beauty of 
our location amid so much water, our fine herds of 
cattle, our great canning industry, and our veneration 
for the accomplishments of our ancestors. Many of our 
people are descendents of the United Empire Loyalists 
who first settled in this territory, and some still 
reside on the same property that was first occupied 



by great-grandparents. Naturally, our people are 
justifiably proud of their heritage and their adherence 
to British tradition has been exemplified by their 
contributions of men and materials during two great 
wars . 

In speaking of the agricultural industry in 
Prince Edward- Lennox, which is the chief source of 
our livelihood, many people have expressed their 
appreciation of the services of the hon, Minister of 
Agriculture and of our agricultural representatives 
who have done so much to give encouragement and leader- 
ship not only in promoting improved herds of cattle 
and improved methods of farming in general, but also 
in encouraging our young people to take pride in their 
accomplishments on the farm, and to feel that there 
is something worthwhile in their endeavours. And that 
last statement is true — there is something worthwhile 
about any work that is done with the desire of attain- 
ing that objective. However, m.any of our young people 
from the farms attend secondary schools, and as they 
become acquainted with the advantages of city or town 
life, they are naturally going to compare the working 
conditions, rates of pay and fixed hours worked by 
the people in the cities, with the longer hours and 
uncertain returns to be derived from agriculture. At 


the present time, Mr, Speaker, that comparison is far 
from favourable to the farmer. The decline in the 
prices of pork, poultry and eggs, and the outbreak of 
foot and mouth disease in the Regina area, resulting in 
the United States placing an embargo on our shipments 
of cattle to that country, create a very unfavourable 
outlook indeed, and unless markets can be found that 
will enable our farmers to meet their high cost of 
production and receive a fair return on the capital 
that they have invested, and a reasonable wage for 
their long hours of labour, not only will the farmers 
suffer but the people in the cities and towns will be 
affected also, because the farmer is their best customer, 
purchasing as he does the machinery and equipment that 
you manufacture, in addition to the personal requirements 
of his family. It is to be hoped that our Governments, 
and particularly the Federal Government, will find ways 
and means to improve the present situation, but there 
is at least one v/ay in which our urban people can help 
our farmers and themselves also, and that is by purchasing 
more cheese and riilk products, and more of the fine 
vegetables and fruits, both fresh and canned, that 
are produced in our ov.m Province, 

At this time I wish to call attention to a 
tourist folder that has been placed on each member ^s 



desk. These folders were sent to me through the 
courtesy of the Picton Gazette, and illustrate much 
better than I can describe, the reasons vhy Prince 
Edward-Lennox counties are becoming more and more 
attractive to tourists. Despite the many attractive 
resorts that have already been established, the 
surface of this great industry has just been scratched 
in the Bay of Quinte area, and I hope that the hon. 
members of the House who have not already done so 
will find the opportunity of visiting us to see for 

All the people of this Province should 
appreciate the efforts of our Department of Travel 
and Publicity, and its Hon. I''inister, because not 
just the tourist operators, but all of us benefit 
from the sales that are made to our visitors. In 
vievr of the impending conditions in agriculture, it 
is doubtful if there over was a time in our history 
when the tourist business assumed greater importance, 
'■/hen vre can't ship our beef to our American customers, 
let us do all we can to induce them to come over here 
v;here they can eat it, I am sure that we can rely 
on our Department of Travel and Publicity to do every- 
thing possible to improve and expand this industry. 


but in addition all of our people who in any way come 
into association with tourists should endeavour to 

treat them in such a way that they will want to come 
back again. 

I could not at this time fail to mention the 
potentially great future that the St, Lawrence "'./ater 
^'7ay development will open up for these historic counties 
which until now have had very little manufacturing 
industry aside from the Gifford Furniture Company in 
Napanee and our canning industry which is seasonal. 

Our fowns of Napanee and Picton will welcome 
new industries and I am confident that following the 
completion of this great undertaking, new industries 
will appreciate the many advantages to be derived from 
locating in or near the towns and villages of Prince 
Edward -Lennox, which as well as possessing ideal 
locations are inhabited by fine people. Indeed, as 
the Hon. Prime Minister so aptly expressed it, this 
was historic legislation and I am sure that the 
Hon. Prime linister and the Hon. Minister of Hydro 
will long be remembered v;ith gratitude by the good 
people of Prince Edward-Lennox for the important part 
they have played in making probable the industrial 
development of our riding, 

I believe that many of the people in the 


Lennox portion of our riding will have another reason 
in the future for being grateful to the Hon. Minister 
of Hydro, These people have had very poor telephone 
service for a niamber of years, and some have been without 
any telephone service whatever for a number of months. 
Good telephone service is a necessity in our rural 
communities because the speed with which the services 
of a doctor or a veterinarian can be obtained often 
means the difference "retween life and death of a person 
or a valuable animal, I know that these people are 
glad that an investigation is being made throughout 
the hundreds of rural telephone systems in our Province, 
with the objective of making possible improved telephone 
service wherever it is so urgently needed. This inves- 
tigation is being carried on under the Department of 
the Hon, Minister for Hydro, and as I have discussed 
this matter with him and with some of the members of 
the staff of the Ontario Municipal Board, I know that 
he and they, as well as myself, are anxious to see 
steps taken that will result in these people receiving 
the benefits of good telephone service as soon as 

In conclusion I want to say that I saw much 
merit in the suggestion of the hon, member for Wellington 


North that this Province should secure a log cabin, 
erect it in a suitable place and collect and place 
therein as many as possible of the implements and 
utensils used by our early settlers. It may be a 
matter of interest to some of the hon. members of 
this House -~ and I understand that the Hon, Prime 
Minister is interested in log cabins — to know that 
the people of Prince Edward have a log cabin erected 
on Picton Fair Grounds and that it contains many 
interesting relics of earlier days. 

This year Picton Fair celebrates its 100th 
anniversary on August 20th to 23rd, and I am sure 
that the people of Prince Edward -- and of Lennox 
where Napanee has a lood fair — would be glad to 
welcome you on this or any other future occasions. 

(Take "G" follows) 

(Take ''C'-AdIjooJs) 
r^e. n^c^i^^ has Ucn ;hi>€^^*5c^^ A//^, Ond 


MR. A.J. CHILD (Wsntworth) : 

Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on the debate 
on the Speech from the Throne, I feel somewhat like 
I did the first time I played hookey in Maple Leaf 
Gardens a good many years ago. Up till that time I 
had been used to playing in much smaller rinks, and far 
less elaborate. I v\fould first like to take this 
opportunity to congratul -te you, sir, on again 
being elected to the high office of Speaker of the 

I would also like to take this opportunity to 
congratulate the Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) on his 
landslide victory in the last November election, and 
as one of the nev; members, I would also like to 
congratul te and thank him for his fine generalship 
in the campaign prior to the election. 

I have played hockey for a number of coaches 
and have been fortunate to have been on a few champion- 
ship teams, including one Olympic Championship in 
1936, which is the highest honour an amateur can 
obtain, and I felt veiy proud and honored as we were 
presented ■v/ith our gold medals. However, I can 
sfely sej I v;as never as proud or felt so honored as 
I did the day I joined the Hon. Prime Minister's team 
on November 22nd, 

It is the first time I have ever joined a 
championship team while I was still a rookie. 

In ending the introductory remarks I would like 
to thank all the hon. Cabinet Ministers for the very 
warm welcome I received from them and for the willingness 

■ s: ■ 


to extend a helping hand to a newcomer. 

Having the honour to represent the riding of 
l/entworth which is partly rural and partly urban, 
it is only natural for me to have a firm interest in 
all branches of the government. 

In agriculture, the difficulty in obtaining 
good farm labour and keeping the younger generation on 
the farm is one of great concern to the farmers in my 
riding. The high wages, \;ith less hours, in urban 
factories is making it difficult for the farmer to 
compete for labour. If a programme could be instituted 
to bring in good, experienced British farm people, 
I believe it would help the present situation consider- 

Housing is another problem in my riding. It 
is difficult for me to understand the thinking of the 
Federal Government in Ottawa for their callous 
restrictions that are depriving thousands of people 
from building their home. I believe we should do all 
in our power and budget to encourage home building 
and lov; cost rental projects in spite of Ottawa, 

The Department of Highv/ays is one department 
that we also have special interest in. My riding has, 
without a doubt, the worst bottle-neck of any road 
system in Canada, the Hamilton Beach strip. This, 
I might add, is not in any way the fault a£ the present 
government, as federal restrictions again make it 
impossible to build a much needed bridge. However, 
I vjould respectfully recommend, Mr. Speaker, that 


urgent consideration be given to this problem as soon 
as the present steel restrictions are lifted. At the 
other end of my riding the townspeople in Ancaster are 
greatly concerned over the fact that there is a possib- 
ility of a high speed, four lane highvmy being extended 
through their quaint and dignified town that takes a 
pride in the safety and welfare of its youngsters. 

Having a large section of my riding in the 
finest heavy industrial city in Canada, labour relations 
are also of great importance to us and here, if 1 may, 
Mr. Speaker, I vrould like to pay tribute to the Hon- 
Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) for his outstanding 
work in the v T.T.G., Gas and Ford strikes. If, 
however, consideration could be given to speeding up 
conciliation time I believe it would lend to even 
happier labour management and government relations. 

In turning to the Department of Education, I 
would just like to say that we in Hamilton, like all other 
expanding areas, are in great need of school accommoda"*? 
tion with added play-rooms for our public schools, and 
gymnasiums and auditoriums added to our high schools. 
In our mountain area we have a population of approximately 
30,000, with hundreds of teen-agers having to come down 
into the city which at times would take them more 
than an hour, to stagger shifts in the present high 
schools for want of a new high school in their own area 
on the mountain. If our budget could stand it, Mr. 
Speaker, I would respectfully recommend that possibly 
a little larger grant might be given to assist the 



municipalities in this all important phase of our 
Canadian way of living. 

Mr. Speaker, I do fel th&t I v/ould be amiss in 
my duties if I did not make some comment on the St. 
Lawrence seaway, v/ith the city of Hamilton playing 
such an important part in the steel industry. of 
Cana'a. The 3-t. Lawrence seaway will make it even more 
valuable to Ont- rio and Canada v/hen the seaway becomes 
a reality. I am very proud to say that the riding of 
Wentworth has some of the finest potential inland 
dock areas in the world. The work that will be 
involved in this project will provide employment 
for thousands of Hamiltonians, and when the work on 
the seaway starts, I would like to point out that it 
is not necessary for us to import experts from outside 
of Canada for any phase in steel construction, as v^re 
have in Hamilton the finest workmen and experts that 
can be found anywhere on the North i^merican continent. 

I would like to say a word or two on the subject 
of government supervision on sports. It was brought up 
in the House of Commons yesteroay by the federal member 
from Kingston, and I believe we here in Ontario 
should give it serious consideration. 

At the present time our youngsters are b eing 
exploited by the big monied interests in professional 
hockey and are not given the opportunity of selling their 
services to the highest bidder. Our youngsters become 
involved in professional hockey through t he vicious 
negotiation list and "C" form contract. The^'e are 




two means of obtaining youngsters at practically- 
whatever price the promoters vdsh to pay for their 
services. I b elieve we should have some type of 
Legislation with teeth in it to protect our youngsters. 

The negotiation list is used to obtain players 
without even the consent of the player or the youngster 
himself. He is simply put on a professional team's 
list and under an agreement with other professional 
teams no other professional club will contact or 
approach this man in any way for at least one year. 

I do not want to dwell to any great length on 
the subject at the present time, as I intend to bring 
it up during the next session. 

The Ontario Hockey Association which I have 
be'c^n connected with for some twenty odd years has 
done a good job and if any youngsters needed advice on 
hockey they could go to them without charge. But 
unfortunately the pro teams get the youngsters before 
they have time to go to the Ontario Hockey Association 
for advice. 

The subject of conservation has already been 
spoken of in the House by the hon. member from Grey South, 
hov>fever there is one phase of conservation that has not 
been mentioned, and it is one of very grave concern 
to the residents of Ontario that reside, or have 
property, that is washed by Lake Ontario. 

I refer, Mr. Speaker, of the problem of lake shore 
erosion, and by lake shore erosion I mean the destruction 
of our lake shore properties by the action of the waves. 




In the riding of VJentworth, which I have the 
honour of representing, the residents along the lake 
shore are in constant ferar of high water and storms. 
At the present time this condition represents a 
very, very serious problem. 

Lake shore erosion is no longer just a seasonal 
inconvenience to the cottages that frequent our shores 
in the summer time, or a nuisance complaint from 
the fruit farmers vi^ho are losing their rich farm 
land. There are thousands of permanent residents now 
living in my riding v/ho are in constant fear of having 
their homes destroyed by lake shore erosion. 

It has, as a matter of fact, taken on interna- 
tional importance. On S'ebru^ry 12th of this year, in 
the Hotel Brock in the city of Niagara Falls, Ontario, 
a joint meeting v/as held by American and Canadian 
representatives of property owners associations, 
municipalities and private citizens who have t heir 
homes and business installations along the lake shore. 
The congressman representing the United States 
Grovernment attended, and the Canadian Government was 
represented by tv/o federal members, Mr. Cavers of 
Lincoln riding and Mr. Leonard from /entworth, and the 
provincial member from jentworth was also invited to 
attend in the interest of the constituents in his riding. 
Out of that meeting two resolutions were adopted; one, 
a directive to the Minister of Planning and Development 
of our Federal Government, and the other, that is of 
Interest to the Legislature here to-day, being a request 


for the Ontario Government to do all in its power to 
have the lake level reduced. 

At that particular joint meeting it was brought 
to light that the i^merioan Property Owners Association 
and the authorities of the American counties bordering 
Lake Ontario were preparing to institute a law suit 
against the Canadian Government for the sum of one 
and one-half million dollars for property damage caused 
by lake shore erosion under the Gut Dam Treaty t hat 
was signed by the Canadian Government in 1907 when 
this dam was erected. 

Unfortunately, the residents on the shores of 
my riding, which takes in such famous beaches as the 
Burlington and Hamilton Beach, Van V/agner's, Crescent, 
Cherry and Vifinona Beaches, have suffered to a far 
greater degree than our ^erican friends to the south. 
Our rich farm land is being eroded to the extent of from 
five to ten feet a year, and in some places it has eroded 
as much as fifteen feet. 

I know of one farmer that has lost 4^ acres in 
recent years of valuable farm land that supplies 
Canadians v/ith fruit for their tables that is so essen- 
tial in our balanced diet. I know, also, of a county 
road that has been completely destroyed in the last few 

Municipalities, and some private firms that 
process the fruit from the Niagara fruit belt, have 
had considerable losses to their lake shore instalia- 
tions that are necessary in the operation of their 


business or munioipality. 

Private owners have built cement sea-v/alls at the 
cost of thousands of dollars only to see them broken 
or criimbled by the force of the waves. The cost of 
building groynes to protect the whole area 
and help recover some of the beaches would cost 
thousands of dollars, a far more financial burden 
than municipalities and private owners can stand. 

Mr. Speaker in the chair. 

I might add here that ten groynes have been 
constructed from money donated to the relief committee 
diiring the last disaster that struck Van Y/agner's 
Beach. These groynes cost approximately one thousand 
dollars each, and can be considered quite successful. 

Stone from the hydro power project at Niagara 
Falls was, I believe, made available for the construction 
of these groynes. Unfortunately, hov/ever, it was 
found that due to the blasting operations the stone 
was not suitable for the type of work required of it as 
it was too small and much larger stone had to be hauled 

In order to build satisfactory groynes from 
stone the stones would have to be from tvro to three 
tons in size or larger, as the smallest stones will 
move with the pounding and lashing of the storms, 
and the effect of the groyne is lost and so is all 
the hard back breaking work t hat t he people have put 


into them. 

The question of haulage costs which is a major 
part of the cost of building these groynes hasi I 
believe, been discussed to some extent with the three 
levels of government, but unfortunately the Federal 
Grovernment , who are well aware of these conditions and 
troubles I speak of, and by all rights of lav\f it is 
their responsibility for lake shore erosion as the 
Great Lakes Basin is an international water-way and, 
therefore, goes under their jurisdiction. They have, 
up to the present time, been reluctant to commit them- 
selves, and now I believe they are waiting for a 
definite request for financial assistance from the 
Provincial Government. 

An extensive survey of the affected a^rea has, 
I believe, been completed by the Planning and Develop- 
ment Department on the order of a directive from the 
hon. Minister of that department (Mr, Griesinger) and 
when the co-operaticn of the Federal Government is 
received I am s ure we will receive the benefits of 
that survey. You may recall the disaster of the 
Van Wagner's, Crescent Beach area. 

The once popular summer playground at Van 
Wagner's Beach near Hamilton was destroyed in November, 
1950, but out of loss and desolation, came the City's 
first Civil Defense Committee. 

Breakers 1£ and 14 feet high bombarded homes 
along the shoreline from dawn until after 11 o'clock 
that night and thousands of volunteers from Hamilton 

r ' 


prevented what may well have b esn complete destruction 
of the tiny lake shore community. 

At high noon, the highway from Van Wagner's to 
Crescent Beach had been nearly washed out. More 
recent storms have since forced its total disappearance, 
and for a time during the afternoon, there were fears 
that the Beach highway - possibly as far back as the 
Queen Elizabeth ^iay would be damaged by the flood 
waters which sent their spray high above the tree-tops. 

Radio appeals for sandbags brought quick response 
and under the direction of Deputy Fire Chief Jerry 
O'Connor, huge dykes of roughly 12 to 14 feet high 
were built by Hamilton firemen. Early in the evening 
these were lost in the storm and another line of 
defense was taken up several yards back. 

At Cherry Beach, homes floated into Lake Ontario, 
while other dwellings at the east end of Crescent Beach 
merely crumbled. 

The Salvation Apmy, under Brigadier Greene, and 
other volunteers, supplied hot coffee and other comforts 
for the thousands of workers who battled the elements. 

The Canadian Red Cross supplied rubb r boots, 
blankets and warm socks, vi/hich were donated in Hamilton. 

Brig. P.A.S. Todd and Aid. M.C. Cline, chairman 
of the Fira and Jail Committee, took command of the 
stricken area and along with a group of soldiers, steps 
were taken to stamp out looting and to organize the 
volunteer workers. 

Hydro crews removed downed telephone and electric 


wires v;hich littered the road. They also removed trees 
and posts which were in danger of toppling. 
A breakwater at the east end of the Beach fell into 
the lake and left a hotel and other valuable prop^rt^ 
exposed to the bounding surf. A tourist court and 
several cabins v/ere demolished and many of the resort 
restaurants were damaged. 

Shortly after 11 o'clock that night, women 
and children were evacuated by the Salvation Army, 
and were housed in emergency shelters in Hsaailton-. 
Minuter, later, the v/ind dropped and the storm had endod- 

Next day, social v:orkers provided the victims 
with blankets and clothing, and the big job of cleaning 
up - which still to a large part remains unfinished - 
v/as underway. 

There have been severs! more storms since and 
each one Lcs taken its toll in land and propertj". 

The Province is- at the present tine, losing 
man;/ miles of its recreation beeches which are of such 
great value in building healthy bodies of our young 
Canadians.. ..'e are losing attractive resort and 
vacation areas v/hich are so valuable to v.a to attract 
American tourists. In some areas the water is actually 
biting through the last bit of protective soil that 
separates Lake Ontario from the pride of our highway 
system, The Queen Elizabeth VJay. At one point, near 
Jordan Harbour, the lake is only a matter of a f e?; fsot 
away froir. the highvray. ^nd already L he Departfasnt of 
Highways has spent considerable money trying to iralntai2i. 



protection in this area* 

Lake shore erosion is just as much a matter of 
national emergency as the fires and floods that have 
been considered so in other parts of Canada during the 
past year or so . 

The matter of lake shore erosion is far more 
serious than the average citizen, v/ho is not familiar 
with these conditions, realizes. These people who are 
affected by it should have the whole hearted support 
of all the people in Ontario in their fight to get the 
Federal Government to recognize their responsibility 
in this disastrous condition that so many people live 
in fear of. 

In the storm of November, 1950 the protective 
sand bar along Van Jagner's and Crescent Beaches that 
has b een t here as long as memories can recall was washed 
away so that now they do not even have this protection 
to break the v;aves before they reach the shore. Frankly 
Mr. Speaker, I hate to think of the consequences that 
would result now if another storm as bad as the one we 
had in November, 1950 struck this area. 

Emergency and disaster committees have been set 
up by the citizens. The Provincial Government, through 
the Hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr. Thomas) has supplied 
thousands of sand bags to them and, at the present time, 
these are placed at strategic positions for the use in 
any danger area where they may be required. I should 
add that the sand bags and equipment were supplied 
after the Township of Saltfleet had passed a resolution 


requesting aid in the form of sand bags and shovels 
and a grant towards the cost of hauling the sand and 
gravel, and balance of the haulage costs. They 
agreed t o pay this themselves. 

This, however, is only a temporary measure in 
case of an emergency, and we cannot expect sandbags 
to stand the beating and pounding of a storm for very 
long. However, I v/ill say the people appreciate, 
and are very grateful for, the sand bags but they still 
have their hands out for a more permanent form of 
aid that anybody will give to them. 

They realize as I do that this is, as I mentioned 
before, a federal responsibility, however, this is 
small consolation to them when their homes are being 
washed into the lake. 

Mr. Frank Leonard, Conservative member f or 
Vi^entworth riding in the Federal House, is bringing the 
question up of lake shore erosion before the House 
of Commons on Thursday, March 13th, and will continue 
to press the Federal Government for some immediate 
action on the matter of both lake shore erosion and 
lake levels. 

I might add that Bills No. 68 and .69, dealing 
with the development of electrical power in the St. 
Lawrence River, which clarifies the water and control 
levels has relieved the minds of these lake shore 
residents to some extent. Articles published in our 
newspapers have stated that the St. Lawrence Hydro Power 



Project and the St. Lawrence seaway would increase the 
water levels as much as three feet, however Article 5, 
Section 4, of Bill No. 68 clarifies this^ In short, 
it guarantees that the people west of Spencer Island 
in the Galoup Rapids will not be affected by the water 
backed up by the nev; proposed hydro dame . I am very 
pleased to say that tho hon. Minister of Public Works 
(Mr, Thomas) has agreed to intercede for these people 
and discuss the matter with the federal authorities, 
and with the support of this Legislature which I am 
quite optimistic he will receive I am sure the hon. 
Minister vdll be able to convince the federal authorit- 
ies of the urgency of this matter, and their responsib- 
ilities in it, and since the Provincial Government 
has carried the problem to their door, it is now up 
to them to shoulder their responsibility and to take 
the initiative from here in. 

Mrc Speaker, I can quite honestly say that if 
something constructive is not done very short ly^ the 
ridings bordering on Lake will be much smaller 
in area and thousands of people will lose their homes 
to the lake. 

In conclusion Mr. Speaker, I would like to say 
may I respectfully request that this Legislature give 
consideration to amending the present conservati on act 
to include lake shore erosion. 

(Take "J" Follows) 


MR. G. C. WARDROPE (Port Arthur): Mr. 
Speaker^ it is with a feeling of deep humility and 
pride that I rise in the House to make my first 
address as one of the new hon. members, and as I 
look around the galleries, at the empty benches and 
at the empt> seats in front of me on the floor of 
the Legislature, I cannot help but have a deep and 
growing suspicion, much as I dislike it, that some- 
body must have inadvertently told both the public 
and hon. members that at this hour the member 
for Port Arthur was scheduled to speak -- that being 

The overwhelming response, Mr. Speaker, at 
the last election to our hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost), his cabinet and hon. members of his 
Government at that time cannot help but transmit to 
us the feeling that they have done a very, very 
fine job. I remember well when our hon. Prime 
Minister was chosen leader, that he in his speech 
of acceptance used this phrase: "We are the people's 
Government". That has stuck in my mind and al 
believe the last election showed the correctness of 
that statement because, Mr. Speaker, we are all more or 
Iocs "Jock Thompson's bairns", some of us clever at 
one thing, others clever at another, but we all have ' 
the same worries. What are those worries? At 
night we lie in bed and we say to ourselves: "What 
will happen to my wife and family if I am out of a '' 
Job through no fault of my own?" This Government 
has provided industry and ever-increasing industry 


to take care of that eventuality/ by seeing that 
everyone at all times has maximum employment. 

Our next worry is this: "What will happen 
to me if I am out of work through accident or 
sickness?" This Government in that direction has 
taken very strong steps to see that that does not 
recur in the years to come. The last piece of 
legislation, which I believe is most humanitarian, 
is the one whereby that tragic few young in years 
but totally disabled from sickness or accident is 
going to be taken care of by way of a pension for 

Our next worry is: "How are we going to 
educate our children?" This Government has in 
Increased educational grants tried to provide the 
means whereby all of us can educate our children 
at a minimum cost. 

The next worr^ we have is this: "What is 
going to happen to me when the boss comes along and 
pats me on the shoulder and says: 'Joe, you are too 
old to work'?" This Government has taken the ag- 
gressive step, the step which I believe has forced 
other governments to concede what we have to-day, that 
is pensions at age sixty-five where need is shown and 
universal pensions at seventy without a means test. 

Those things, Mr. Speaker, are what was meant 
when our hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) said: "We 
are the people's Government." In other words, the 
public saw that he not only dealt in words but he 


dealt in deeds, and the result of that was shown In 
the tremendous majority of 79 seats in the last 
election, and I compliment him and all his hon. 
ministers and hon, members of his Government at 
that time for having done a grand job. 

I am proud, Mr. Speaker, to represent the 
constituency of Port Arthur East-Thunder Bay, because 
we have a pioneering people in that district who have 
build up tremendous economic potentialities both 
present and future. In area we are an enormous 
constituency. On our east bounday we have towns 
such as White River and Hornepayne, which immediately 
tie on to the constituency of the hon. Minister of 
Mines (Mr. Gemmell). On the south we are bound 
by the north shores of Lake Superior, and on the 
west by the constituency of Port William which is 
represented by the hon. member for Font.Killiam 
{Mr,, Our northern boundary, Mr. Speaker, 
is just about two miles south of Santa Glaus. 

It is an enormous area, which was for 
so many years, Mr. Speaker, viewed by the people of 
Eastern Ontario and even by hon. members of our 
Legislatures with a perspective out of all 

proportion to the great undeveloped natural 
resources of that area, resources which even up to 
the present time have onlj/ been partially evaluated 
and which evaluation does not disclose the great 
undiscovered potentialies. 

I am proud also to be a successor of men 
such as the Honourable Prank Keefer, the Hohourable 


James Conmee, Prank Spence and General Don Hogarth 
whom many in this House know, who for years were 
voices crying in the wilderness of the great 
potentialities of that barren, frozen north as it 
was considered to be by many Easterners. 

Today, Mr. Speaker, we hear those voices 
caught up and amplified a thousand times, not only 
in this country but by our cousins to the south and in 
other parts of the world, to show that the economic 
potentialities we are producin:5 at the present time, 
and are capable of producing in the future, are 
something that has amazed the world. 

I also speak with great respect of those 
who have gone before, of all political faiths, and 1 
will say this to the hon. Leader of the Opposition 
(Mr. Oliver) that many on his side of the political 
arena made a great contribution as well; today their 
faith and vision, although not given much credence at 
the time, are " being acclaimed throughout the whole 

Mr. Speaker, let me give you some facts and 
figures as to the growth and development of the north's 
natural resources even during the last fifteen years 
in pulp and paper, saw logs, fur and fishj minerals, 
tourist business and agriculture. Here are some 
startling figures on natural resources development, 
and do not forget, we are not selfish in speaking of 
these things, because every increase in development 
of natural resources in our part of the country adds 
to the wealth of the whole of Ontario, yes, and of 


the whole of Canada, and I base my remarks on the 
fact that if a greater contribution is made by this 
Government to the development of the North, it is 
returned ten-fold in wealth to the whole province. 
Here are the annual figures: 

Pulp and paper $150,000,000 

Minerals 25,000,000 

Fur and fish 5,000,000 

Tourist business 17,000,uOO 

Agriculture 10,000,000 

A grand total of some $207,000,000 annually from that 
part of the country in natural resources alone, and 
remember, Mr. Speaker, that does not include our tre- 
mendous handling of wheat in a storage capacity of 
110,000,000 bushels at a time, and other allied indus- 
tries which I shall not labour you with at the present 
time . 

The administrative districts of Fort Frances, 
Geraldton, Kenora, Port Arthur and Sioux Lookout are 
contained in the area, we people at the lakehead call 
"Northwestern Ontario" The hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Mr. Oliver) the other day mentioned 
the hon. member for Kenora (Mr. Wren) and I hope 
he will not mind my saying something about his dis- 
trict because before the Session is over, Mr. Speaker, 
it is my hope that we can convert him in the proper 

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
You have got a big Job on your hands. 


MR. WARDROPE: Our principal sources of 
livelihood are derived from the natural resources 
of timber, minerals, fish and fur, the tourist 
Industry and In storage and handling of grain from 
the Western Provinces. Naturally the people of 
Northwestern Ontario are interested in the welfare 
of these resources and in seeing their full develop- 
ment. I am taking a liberty with the hon. 
Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott) here, Mr. 
Speaker, but I hope he will bear me out that the 
total area administered by his Department is 
221,000 square miles, roughly , of which 69,860 
square miles are contained in the five districts 
which I mentioned previously and which represent a 
third of that total. Of the $6,760,000 received 
by the Government in timber revenue in the ;> ear 
ending March 31st, 1950, the last report I have, 
our district contributed $2, 660,000, or more than a 
third of the total. 

In wood volume these districts in that year 
supplied 1,518,000 cords of wood in pulpwood and other 
products measured by the cord, and 6l,263>000 board 
feet of lumber and other products usually measured 
by the board foot. Using a conservative conversion, 
these result in products of dollar value in excess 
of $150 million, a sizeable sum, Mr. Speaker, for 
areas in Northern Ontario. 

Of this sum, approximately $9 million was 
earned in other countries, principally the United 




States in manufacture from the raw material exported 
from our district. This estimate does not include 
values created by the further processing of lumber 
and other materials which are herein considered as 

Even the casual traveller in Northwestern 
Ontario, Mr. Speaker, must observe how development 
of the country has resulted in the immediate efforts 
of people of free enterprise to capitalize on the* 
opportunities provided. Every public road into the 
public domain has been settled by tourist outfitters 
and services to that trade. There are at present 
some 1^00 of them and any new public road into the 
lands of our forests and lakes would immediately 
be settled by people who serve the tourist Industry. 
As yet we have barely opened the country- to the 
American tourists who would come here in increasing 
numbers when the attractions they seek are provided. 
A planned programme of public roads to open the 
country to tourist traffic is one that would result 
in handsome benefits to our part of the province. 

Most pitiful of all spectacles is the 
situation of our mining industry. With few ex- 
ceptions, Mr. Speaker, it is sick and dying and 
requires revitabllzing by new discoveries which can 
only be determined by expenditures of large sums. 
We have in a rough waj/ mapped the geology of our 
district but so much of the country lies buried 
beneath lake, muskeg and other overburden that it 



has been impossible to examine, and only the diamond 
drill and magnetometer can reveal its secrets of 
wealth. The very least that could be expected of 
the Government -- and, mind you, they have done a 
lot but I am asking them to listen to these remarks -- 
is the mapping of those areas geologically favourable 
and a programme of drilling should determine whether 
there are minerals values of economic importance or 
not . 

Mr. Speaker, the prospectors' resources are 
too puny to lay fcar» the wealth we know to be hidden 
from us. This development expense would be returned 
by the mining industry in some form of taxation on 
profits onee an industry were established on that 
plan. Proven areas could also be offered for 
public auction, rather than allow staking of claims 
within the areas. 

With taxation taking 52 cents of every dollar 
of profits earned by industry, it is hardly to be 
expected but that priY> enterprise is Icog villing to 
risk capital in excess expense in proving and ex- 
ploiting resources. Our part of Ontario in par- 
ticular, Mr. Speaker, in common with most of Northern 
Ontario, has lagged behind in prosperity with the rest 
of Ontario primarily because its resources have not 
been put to work. Roads that enable us to visit 
out neighbours and develop communities are good 
things, but thinking people know that to progress 
we must penetrate the vast expanse of undeveloped 


lands around us and uncover the wealth which lies 
waiting those with initiative to discover. 

Despite this situation, and tenuous as their 
rights may be, private industry, and the forest indus- 
tries in particular, have supplied the means of access 
and provided the transportation improvements required 
to realize on our forest and land wealth. In many 
cases these facilities have not been entirely within 
the areas to which they hold rights, and others may 
and do use these facilities without pro: rata con- 
tributions . 

(Take "K" follows) 


"(/hatever areas are required to support 
existing and planned industries must be protected. A 
one-year old tree today in those areas will be required 
80 years or so hence to provide the raw material for 
those industries, When protection is denied, we are 
saying in effect, our descendants in 2030 do not need 
to eat. Yet, from year to year, we do not protect a 
part of our resoiorces because ovir budget does not 
permit us to do so. We do not have the moral right 
to deny to future generations their share of the 
renewable resources. 

The transport of raw materials to market 
required the improvement of waterways or provision of 
roads. JTuct of this improvement done today is limited 
by the resources and security of tenure of the private 
industries. They may also provide for their own 
requirements when by somewhat increased expenditures 
they could provide for the whole area tributary to 
these improvements. The net result of this situation 
is to waste money, and if any one in this Province 
wastes money we are individually and collectively the 
poorer for it. The Government, together with industry, 
needs to study the kind and nature of improvements 
required to service the land areas of this P3?ovince 
and to work out the means whereby to provide the best 
improvements at the lowest unit cost from the long- 
term vievw'point. This cost to be fairly shared. 


Mr. Speaker, the devastation created by the 
Spruce Budworm is grim reminder of the power of other 
forms of life to inflict a crippling blow to our 
resources and industrial potential. True, there are 
men and facilities working on this problem so that 
man riiay triumph over nature, but are we doing enough? 
'Hhe answer to this is a definite "no". After more than 
four years of intensified research, there is still no 
swift, sure, man-made death for this pest. We appear 
to have the funds for research in other lethal enter- 
prises and they must be provided for the survival of 
our basic resources which are the foiindation of much 
of our wealth. 

Returns Indicate, too , that we have much to 
learn about fish and wild life. Much of the area 
accessible to us is providing modest returns. In other 
locations seemingly similar and equal areas team with 
life, which, in turn, means more dollars to the citizens 
of the Province, There is indicated a need for 
intensified and increased research to find how we may 
make these laggard areas more productive. 

The farmers of our Community are in the 
enviable position of having a ready market for their 
products. They receive considerable advice and 
assistance from the Provincial Agricultural represent- 
ative and some provincial aid in breaking new land. 
They are not, however, as well favored as other sections 
of the province, where experimental farms are set up to 


develop new varieties of fruits, vegetables, grains 
and grasses adapted to the general soil and climatic 
conditionso Telling the farmer what he may do is not 
nearly so satisfying or productive as showing him, and 
my district needs an experimental farm with livestock 
and field crops grown under the most advanced 
scientific care. 

In music and the arts we lack the advantages 
of Southern Ontario c. '7e do not expect that the great 
events and exhibitions should take place in our midst, 
but if we, too, are to enjoy the benefits of these 
attributes of higher civilization somewhere in the 
north country there should be a suitable auditorium 
and gallery, within reasonable travelling distance of 
its residents. 

In higher education, the colleges of the 
Province are located in the south. Parents in 
Northern Ontario are penalized over those to the south 
not only in higher transportation costs but in the 
separation from their children who at best can return 
to their homes only during the Christmas vacations. A 
Junior College is an immediate requirement of the 
north and it must receive considerable promotion and 
assistance from the south. 

If northern Ontario is to develop and prosper 
it must receive the initial impetus of capital 
expenditure required to make its resources available. 
The Province at large must forego contribution from 


the North until it has sufficient industry and popul- 
ation established,, enjoying equal advantage with the 
industrialized South. In summary, this Government 
must undertake these things to promote this 

(1) A program of road construction which 
will provide protection to the forest lands and 
enable proper forest management to be practised. To 
permit ready economical access for survey of lands 
to determine new mineral sources. To provide 
greater opportimity to the tourist industry. 

(2) A program of improvements, of permanent 
nature where indicated, to permit transportation of 
forest products to market at least cost. 

(3) Enlargment and intensification of 
research to perpetuate and increase the returns 
from the renewable resources of forest, fish and 
wild life. 

(4) Provision in the estimates for sufficient 
funds to provide the required protection and develop- 
ment of the forests in every year. If necessary, 
money should be borrowed on a Debenture issue, which 

no doubt the people would support. 

(5) To make available in reasonably equal 
measure to all citizens of the Province the benefits 
of culture obtained from music and the arts, 

(6) To equalize educational opportunity with 
fair consideration to material and human values. 


(7) To educate and inspire the rural 
CoEimunities by visible example of what may be 
accomplished on the farms in livestock and field 
crops, by establishment of a Provincial experimental 

(Take L follows. ) 


We must undertake surveys and exploration to 
block out probably mineral prospects. We must assure 
the completion of the St. Lawrence Deep Y/ater-way. 
V\fhen I went to see the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 
a short time ago, he said to me that he was going to 
every length to see that the • great all-Canadian Sea- 
way was completed. Can you imagine what that means to 
our communities at the head of the lakes? We v/ill have 
a gate-way to every port in the world, we v/ill be able 
to handle our grand forest products and other natural 
resources. It will mean a great impetus to the iron 
industry. You are all aware of the great Steep Rock 
iron industry and this v/ill mean blast furnaces and 
steel mills and perhaps make us the Chicago of Canada. 

V/hy should I not vote for the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost )?He goes"all out '*f or projects of 
this kind, to develop Canada, In ray opening remarks, I 
said this Government under the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. 
Frost) had gone to tremendous lengths to look after 
our people, and this is just another example. 

I have been requested by the hon, member 
r Rainy River (Mr. Noden): the hon, member for Fort 
WTliam /^' Map led Oram ) : the hon. member for Kenora 
(Mr. Wren), and ©J-1 our citizens in our part of the 
country, including the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie 


(?«Ir. Lyons): the hon. member for Algoma (Mr. Fullerton) 
and all the other northern hon, members and all the 
people of our district to invite you, Mr. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) and every hon, member in this House, to 
come up to the north to visit and learn about this 
great storehouse of present and future economic wealth 
in that part of the province known as Northern Ontario, 
Our city councils, our town councils, our Chambers of 
Commerce, our municipal councils, and all our people 
will spare nothing to see that you are shown real 
northern hospitality, I would suggest this trip some 
time in September, If you v/ill accept, you will do us 
a great honour, and I assure you that the hand of 
friendship will be extended, and the welcome sign will 
be on every door. You, in turn, will have the satis- 
faction of learning about, and seeing first hand, vast 
potentalities of this great northern kingdom, designed 
to be, not alone in my opinion, the future Chicago of 

The people of Northern Ontario have through 
the years shown- faith, courage and initiative in 
pioneering the development of the north. This is a 
challenge to you to match the faith and courage of the 
north, by every contribution you can make for our 
further development. We here are saddled with the 


responsiblity of using our resources and diverse talents, 
and our power of control, to the end, that the progress 
of the past fifteen years may be multiplied many times 
in the years that lie ahead. 

We appreciate the interest this present Govern- 
ment has displayed on our behalf, to the many improve- 
ments you have contributed and the many visits the hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) and the other hon. Ministers 
have made to our part of the province. You brought 
pleasure and hope to our citizens through those visits, 
and I am sure you enjoyed the experience and your 
kno\'/ledge of our great northern kingdom was increased. 

Let me repeat, this Government must match 
the faith, courage and initiative of my people, or that 
faith, courage and initiative will surely die. 

On Monday of this week, we had, to me, a very 

outstanding event happen here in the visit of His 

Excellency, the Governor of Michigan. As that handsome 

young man finished his address and the hon. Prime 

Minister (Mr. Frost) and the hon. Leader of the Opposition 

(Mr. Oliver) went, shoulder to shoulder, over to him 

and the three of them riE t and shook hands it showed 

me, Mr. Speaker, that that is democracy on the march. 

I was proud, 

HON. H. R. SCOTT (Minister of Mines and 
Forests): Mr. Speaker, the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) 



In his capacity as Treasurer, has been so melted by 
the eloquent words of the hon. monber for Port Arthur 
(Mr. Vifardrope) , he has asked me, through you, to inform 
the hon. meniber (Mr. V/ardrope ) that his constituents 
might start putting beaver tails in the deepfreeze 
because his invitation to the North this summer, will 
be accepted. 

It being six of the clock, the House took 


of 11|F 
of tin? 

J^rnuinrF of (iutartn 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XVI 

Thursday, March 13, 1952. 

( Evening Session ) 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Buildings 


-The House Resumes, B o'clock p.m. 
-Mr, Speaker in the Chair. 

im. E. L. !'-fEAVER {St. David ): Mr. Speaker, 
in rising to speak to this debate, I am not unmindful 
of the fact that many hon, members have already- 
spoken and have dealt with many of the subjects 
which are to come before us at this Session of the 
Legislature. I know many other hon. members are 
desirous of speaking, and I am not desirous of 
thrashing over old straw. Therefore, Mr, Speaker, 
I propose to be very brief in the hope that I might 
have an opportunity of speaking to some of these 
matters at some later date in the discussion. 

First, may I add to those who have already 
spoken my own personal congratulations to you upon 
your transition from the role of a party member to 
the honourable role and high office of Mr. Speaker, 
I know that this House has the utmost confidence that 
you will continue to exercise in that high office the 
impartiality, justice, and dignity that you have 
always eixercised, 

A very few days before this Session began, 
the British Empire suffered a very great loss in the 
passing of His Majesty King George the Sixth, One of 
the very first acts which we did was to send forward a 


message of sympathy to Her I'ajesty '^ueen Elizabeth 
and an expression of continued loyalty. In the 
preamble to the Statutes of V/estminster is recited 
that the Crown is a symbol of the free association 
of the members of the Commonwealth of Nations and 
they are united by comraon allegiance to the Crown, 
During the reign of King George the Sixth we came 
to recognize more and more that the strength of that 
link lay in the person of the monarch. His Ivlajesty 
won our respect and admiration by his exemplification 
to the utmost degree of those virtues which are 
extolled in the National Anthem, He, as King, exempli- 
fied those virtues which all of us as good citizens 
would hope to see followed in our own lives, the vir- 
tues of godliness, nobility, graciousness, courage, 
loyalty and dignity. 

We had the great privilege of having a visit 
from Her J'ajesty such a short time before she assumed 
the Crown and we were all able to perceive that she 
inherits from her royal parents both by birth and 
training those virtues of v;,hich I have spoken, 

Mr, Speaker, may I add to the congratulations 
from all sides of the House to the Prime Minister 
(Mr, Frost) upon his sweeping victory at the polls 


on November 22nd, However, I might say that this vast 
vote of confidence caused a little bit of embarrassment 
to some of his supporters in the House, In Legis- 
latures under the British system there is the traditional 
method of separating the sheep from the goats. Tradi- 
tionally, the supporters of the Government sit on your 
right, Mr. Speaker, and the Opposition sit on your left. 
However, some of the lambs, shall I say, find ourselves 
corralled with the goats. This is liable to cause a 
little confusion, because also, traditionally in British 
Houses of Legislature, it is the practice for hon, 
members in addressing the Chair to say, "Mr. Speaker, 
we on this side of the House disagree with what those on 
that side of the House say." Of course, we on this side 
of the House are here in body, but I want to assure you 
that in spirit the lambs that you see here are situated 
on the other side of the House. 

I have heard, on one or two occasions during 
this debate, called to the attention of the House, 
the fact that this Government has slightly less than 
fifty percent, of the vote of the Province. However, 
I would like to call the attention of the House to the 
fact that while possibly slightly more than fifty 
percent of the people in the Province, as has been 


pointed out, voted against the Conservative Party, 
there was 695^ of the people of Ontario who voted against 
the Liberal Party, and there was Slfo of the people of 
Ontario who voted against the C.C.F. Party. There 
was almost 99-44/100^ who voted against the Labour 
Progressive Party, In accordance with the formula 
put forward by a well-known manufacturer, that latter 
percentage constitutes practical purity, 

I have the honour to represent the riding 
of St. David in this House. St. David comprises the 
oldest settled part of the city of Toronto, and one 
of the very oldest settled parts of the Province of 
Ontario. In 1793 when the Lieutenant-Governor, John 
Graves Simcoe decided to move the seat of Government 
of this Province from the Peninsula over to York, 
in the first place he settled the militia on the site 
of Fort York, and he put the seat of Government within 
my riding. The Parliament Buildings were set up at 
or near the corner of Barclay and Front Streets in 
St. David Riding, Parliament Street was run through, 
taking its name from that seat of Government. As a 
matter of fact, to-day Parliament Street is what can 
be called the "main stem of St. David's Riding." St. 

David's Riding did not always have a representation 

of a character of which I would approve, in the House, 

(Take "BB" follows) 



This riding elected three times to the 
House of Upper Canada -- the Legislature of Upper 
Canada -- William Lyon Mackenzie^ and thrice he 
was refused the right to take his seat in that 
Legislature. Also this ward in the City of 
Toronto then known as St. David's ward, elected 
him to the Council of the City of Toronto, and 
in 1834 on the incorporation of Toronto he was 
elected its first mayor. I would say, sir, that 
now that St. David has permanently returned to 
the Conservative fold, the member who sits in 
this Legislature will not be of such a rebellious 
nature as that member to whom I have just referred. 

This riding of St. David's is a purely 
urban riding and in that respect it differs from 
many of the other ridings which are represented by 
members sitting here in the House. 

Sir, I have heard on several occasions the 
hope and the prediction expressed that this City 
and other cities in this Province would one day 
become the largest in Canada or the largest on 
the North American Continent. I want to say that 
I am not one who holds with those who believe that 
there is virtue in pure size. I would say that there 
is much more to be gained in the way of human happi- 
ness, may I say, and healthy econom^y in dispersing 
rather than in concentrating our population and our 
industrial installations. This, I believe, is true 
in peacetime and I think it is axiomatic in time of 


war that dispersal as opposed to concentration pre- 
vents or provides against vulnerability. 

I have said that St. David's riding Is a 
purely urban riding. I have said that it Is a riding 
which is densely populated. As a matter of fact, sir, 
I would put it to you that I have within my riding 
possibly the most densely populated section of the 
entire province. I am speaking numerically, of 
course. In the southern part of my riding in the 
area which is known as Cabbagetown within one square 
mile there live approximately thirty thousand people, 
and I would ask those members who come from rural, 
semi-rural or suburban, shall I say, districts to 
think what this means -- districts or areas where 
possibly you will have no more than thirty people 
living in one square mile. 

In such living conditions as these you can 
understand that conditions are very crowded, that 
housing is bad, sanitary conditions cannot be of the 
best and it breeds disease and delinquency and crime. 
Therefore, sir, I would say that our problems in our 
riding differ to a great extent from the problems in 
the ridings of most of you. 

In the first place, first and foremost, I 
would say our problem is one of housing. I have heard 
many hon. members expressing the opinion that housing 
was the No. 1 problem in their riding. I would say 
unquestionably in my riding housing is No. 1 problem. 

I agree to the full with the thoughts 


expressed in the Speech from the Throne that the 
Government regards It as of paramount Importance to 
give to people every opportunity and every assistance 
to purchase their own homes. There is no question 
about it, that it is highly desirable that we should 
have as many home owners as possible In the province 
because with a stake of their own in the province 
these people are bound to be better citizens than 
they would be otherwise. Unfortimately, sir, it 
is not always possible to permit everyone or to 
assist everyone to buy his own home. In such a 
densely populated area as St. David's riding, 
multiple housing must of necessity be brought in. 
We have there a scheme in Regent's park about 
which several times the House has been reminded. 
This Government assisted the City of Toronto to 
set up the Regent Park housing scheme and I would 
urge the Government -- and I am sure that the Govern- 
ment needs no special ;urging -- but I would urge the 
Government to continue to assist in the erection of 
multiple housing of a proper character, properly 
equipped with sanitary and other facilities. 

Another problem which is uppermost in the 
minds of a great many of my constituents is the 
question of welfare in its broadest aspect, social 
welfare -- health, education and also assistance in 
the case of unemployment. We have heard in this 
House hon. members express the difficulties which 
they have found in their own ridings In connection 


with unemployment relief to the unemployed employables. 
I would say, sir, that that is a problem which is 
primarily one of the Dominion. The Dominion accepted 
the responsibility for unemployment insurance, which 
was provided to help ei:^:7 loyable persons in cases of 
unemployment. Today, sir, many difficulties have 
been placed in the way of a great many of these 
more than thirty thousand unemployed in Toronto 
today in obtaining assistance or in obtaining the 
unemployment payments which they feel is their 
Just due, they having contributed towards the 
unemployment insurance. 

The problems of old age are other problems 
that are also paramount or uppermost in the minds of 
my constituents. We have in St. David riding about 
half a dozen privately supported Institutions where 
citizens in old age can be assisted and in addition 
to that, of course, we have in the riding two very 
large cemeteries, and we have one zoo. 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): What 
cemetery is very historical? 

MR. WEAVER: I do not know which cemetery 
that is, but there is, sir, as I mentioned, one zoo 
there, and I have visited that and received a great 
deal of instruction, and I would urge hon. members 
here -- it is not very far away -- to visit our zoo. 
I think that the^v might get a great deal of instruc- 
tion from observing the behaviour and conduct of 
the denizens of that zoo. 



Mr. Speaker^ I was very much Interested 
when the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) 
referred so proudly to the forts of historical 
Interest in his riding. He referred to Fort 
Henry, Fort Frederick, Fort Frontenac and the 
Martello Towers. Those forts have contributed a 
great deal to the history of this Province. This 
Province ind the Dominion have assisted in restoring 
Fort Henry until now it is a show place and a place 
of Instruction to our own citizens and to the 
citizens of the country at the south gate. 

Sir, in this City of Toronto we have 
an historical heritage in old Port York. I would 
urge once again upon the hon. members, if they have 
not already visited it, that the^, do visit it. 
Fort York, as I said earlier, was established by 
Lieutenant-Governor John Graves Simcoe first in 
1793 when he moved the seat of government of this 
province over from Newark and that Fort is the site 
of the first and only invasion which we in this city 
have suffered. 

In the year l8l3 in the month of April an 
American force during that war of l8l2 to l8l^ 
attacked and captured that fort and entered the 
town of York, as it was then known, and carried off 
the Mace with them which, two days ago lay on 
the table on the occasion of the visit of the Governor 
of Michigan, and that Mace which was carried off was 
only returned quite recently through the kind offices 



of the late President Roosevelt. 

Mr. Speaker, I have outlined only 
briefly the problems which are peculiar to my riding, 
I was very much interested in one of the amendments 
which was proposed by the hon. Leader of the Opposi- 
tion (Mr. Oliver) dealing with the question of con- 
servation. Conservation is a subject which we hon. 
members of purely urban ridings are apt to overlook 
and yet conservation is a problem the solution of 
which is of the greatest importance to the province 
as a whole. By "conservation" I take it is meant 
the conservation of our natural resources of soil, 
of water, of forest and of wildlife. I have read 
with great interest the report of the Select 
Committee on Conservation. I have followed with 
great interest the measures that have already been 
proposed in this House to further the cause of 
conservation. To my mind, the mind possibly of 
a layman, it would appear that the ke^r to conserva- 
tion lies in water because without water neither 
animal nor vegetable life can exist or can grow, 
and water is required in order to make available 
through minerals the wealth which is necessary 
to contribute towards the vegetable growth and 
towards the growth which supports animal life 
including the life of man. 

(Take "CC" follows) 



The sole source of water is rainfall. All 
of our water comes from rainfall and, as I see it, 
Mr. Speaker, the problem of conservation is to retain 
that rainfall in the land by proper cover so that it 
is retained for the maximum period in order that it 
may continue during that maximum period to contribute 
to the growth of animal and vegetable life. By 
being retained for the maximum period and not run- 
ning off quickly, erosion both by water and by wind 
is stopped, the pollution of streams is stopped, 
the proper retention and building up of the water 
table and of springs is maintained and the steady 
flow of water to the seas which is necessary to 
prevent floods, to prevent drought and to provide 
that water power which produces hydro electric 
energy so necessary to the economy of this province. 

In closing, sir, I just want to say one or 
two words about myself and my colleagues from the 
City of Toronto. We appreciate your problems, 
you I know appreciate our problems; I say that 
possibly in spite of or perhaps because of events 
earlier this morning. We appreciate your problems 
and we know that their solution is necessary to 
the good, shall I say, generally of the Province of 
Ontario and indirectly to our own good, and I can 
assure you on behalf of myself, sir, and of my col- 
leagues from the City of Toronto that we will give 
the greatest co-operation to this House in the 
framing of legislation and in the works for the 
good of the Province of Ontario as a whole. 


MR. P. T. KELLY (Cochrane North): Mr. 
Speaker, I should like to speak tonight in the main 
in connection with those matters with which we have 
to deal in the riding of North Cochrane. First, 
however, I would like to make a passing reference 
to some of the work which has been done by hon. 
members of this Government and of the Cabinet over 
the past year. 

Dealing first and briefly with the Department 
of Labour, I think that the present administration of 
this Government and the governments of Ontario to come, 
has gained the respect of labour. It has been 
indicated in the handling of the various strikes 
which have been settled by the hon. Minister of 
Labour (Mr. Daley) only recently. And aside 
from that point, the provisions which he has written 
into the Workmen's Compensation Act do provide for 
adequate protection for workmen as times change, as 
wages change and so forth. 

In connection with education I can speak 
for North Cochrane and tell you that in the past 
eight years we have received better grants for 
schools, built better schools and given our own 
children in the little red school house up there 
much more opportunity than they have had before. 
Prior to this programme of the Department of 
Education, education for Northern Ontario was a 
pretty grim affair. Today I am glad to say that 
in the riding of North Cochrane over the past few 


years we have seventeen modern new schools, that 
our teachers are adequately paid and accordingly 
our children are progressing more and more favour- 

Coming to a Department with which I have 
done a little business and of which I have a little 
knowledge, the Department of Lands and Forests, 
North Cochrane as -^ou know depends in the main on 
lands and forests. It might interest hon. members 
here to know that under this Administration your 
forests have not been dealt out to this one and 
that but -- and I stand to be corrected if I am 
wrong -- at the present time eighty-five per cent 
of this money which you have, this potential in 
timber, is in your name. That is quite a recovery 
from the position of the Department of Lands and 
Forests some twelve or fifteen years ago. 

Coming now to the hon. Minister (Mr. 
Challies), may I say that he may walk into Hearst 
any time at all and be given a banquet because 
during the past year, for the first time in thirty 
years, the Town of Hearst which has a population of 
approximately three thousand, has been provided with 
hydro. All through the western part of North Cochrane, 
farmer after farmer is now able to buy hydro. This 
is an added impetus to colonization, and I think the 
time is ripe now to further a programme of agriculture 
in North Cochrane to the end that we shall be able to 
send you more of these certified potatoes which you 




are glad to pay half the freight on to get down here 
and which are free of scab and blemishes , etc. 

I might add in connection with agriculture 
that ^5 miles south of the line of North Cochrane, 
we last year grew peas which took the prize at the 
Chicago World Fair, which I think is some record for 
Ontario let alone North Cochrane. 

Dealing further with agriculture, down here 
you have the National Housing Act; up North I think 
we are a little outside the limits. I make this 
suggestion to the Government, if a man is willing 
in North Cochrane or the north country to invest 
$5,000 of his own mone^ to put the land into pro- 
duction on a ten-mile strip, say, along the main 
highways, then I suggest to you it might be a good 
idea for this Government to bring in a Bill, or 
legislation of some kind, whereby they would provide 
him with a loan of $5,000 at one per cent for twenty 
years on the theory that if he is willing to sink 
his money into it, then I think we here should legis- 
late to the end that he is able to do so, if it is 
only a matter of capital. Then I want to point out 
that here the National Housing Act obtains, and does 
not in North Cochrane, 

In concluding my remarks on agriculture, 
to those hon. members of the Legislature who have 
never been in the North, I might tell you we have 
ripened hard grain in North Cochrane for the past 
forty-five years, we ripen our oats and the general 



impression you may have that North Cochrane is not 
a farming centre Is entirely wrong; we have some of 
the richest land In Ontario and we do ripen our 

I should like now to take a little time to 
deal with the matter of highways. As you know. 
Highway No. 11 is the only main thoroughfare through 
the north country. Down here I was Interested to 
hear one hon. member say that in his particular 
county they had a road on the north, they had a 
road on the south, they had a road on the east and 
another on the west, and they were all paved, and 
the question was, who was going to pay for the up- 
keep. In North Cochrane -- and I would like to get 
this across -- we will settle for one good road any 
time and we will keep it up. 

We believe you must develop North Cochrane 
in the way of bridges to protect heavy traffic which 
is now going through the north, and I am sure that it 
will pay you back ten times what you spend in the 

The potentialities of North Cochrane have 
never been very well publicized. Here are some of 
them. I have referred to the iron in the Belcher 
Islands, which are practically all iron; to the 
lignite and gypsum deposits between Cochrane and 
178 miles north, which is James Bay; to the power 
in the Albany River, the Moose, the Mlssinabl, 
Abltlbl and Mattagami, all of them big rivers. 
When your St. Lawrence development is done, you 


will have to turn to Northern Ontario where you have 
-- and I think the hon . Minister (Mr. Challies) will 
bear me out -- the greatest potential power source, 
possibly in Canada. 

The hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Wardrope) 
in Inviting you to the North forgot to mention 
Temiskaming, South Cochrane and North Cochrane. I 
suggest to you that after you have seen all the 
North that you come into North Cochrane and we will 
take you down to James Bay and Hudson Bay, it is not 
very far north, it is not nearly as far north as 
hon. members think. It is only a matter of two 
hundred miles to the seaboard. 

Conservative Governments throughout the 
history of Ontario have proved that they have had 
vision. Up North we still refer to it as "the 
old Ferguson highway", and we are making history up 
there. This Legislature has the opportunity to 
participate in making history in Northern Ontario 
by the development of it, which will be in the end 
a good investment for you and will pay you back so 
that when you are going to the various hon. Ministers 
for roads, power and so forth, remember that we are 
up there and we have the potential wealth, all it needs 
is development and I suggest that we go in ahead for 
once . 

Mr. Speaker retired. 

Mr. Downer in the Chair. 

(Take "DD" follows) 


MR. !'/. G. BEECH (York South): Mr. Speaker, 
First of all, Sir, please allow me to add my congratu- 
lations to those you have already received, on your 
re-election to the high office you now hold, and to 
extend my personal thanks for the courtesy and prompt 
attention you have given my requests for assistance. 

As this is an entirely new experience for me, 
it is to be expected that I will make some mistakes, 
but I feel sure I can rely on your indulgence until 
I have had time to learn the procedure of this time- 
honoured institution. 

It was with this thought in mind that I felt 
it would be advisable to adopt the policy of the wise 
old owl, and see all, hear all and say nowt. However, 
the method of debate used in this House is different 
from what I have been used to in the Municipal Council, 
where discussion v/as discouraged when it was evident 
that the motion before the Council was going to carry 
without dissension. In this way repetition was 
avoided and much time saved. The thought behind this 
was that the people elect representatives for their 
ability to get things done, and not for their powers 
of oratory. This does not seem to be the policy 
adopted here, but it seems to be rather important 






to have the individual opinion on the record, as well 
as the evidence of the vote. 

I am sure the Conservative Party contributed 
its share to the prolific flow of words that took 
place during the recent election, but I submit that 
it was the evidence of a record of accomplishment 
by the Government, and the popularity of our great 
leader, that led to the overwhelming success at the 
polls, and all the talking in the world would not 
have changed the result. 

However, as this is the procedure, I am 
taking the opportunity of placing upon the record 
the opinions of my people in the constituency of 
South York, which includes the greater part of York 
Township and Forest Hill Village, and how the Speech 
from the Throne is likely to affect the people I have 
the great honour to represent. 

While it must be realized that as long as 
the Federal Government maintains its controls over 
materials and finances, it cannot escape full respon- 
sibility for the provision of adequate housing, lack 
of which constitutes an emergency equal to National 
Defence, it is very heartening to hear that the 
Government of Ontario is going to take steps to 
accelerate the building of homes in this Province. 



It is the hope of our people that the policy 
of extending financial aid will be on the basis of 
need, and not on the possibility of getting back 
dollar for dollar plus interest, as is now the policy 
of Central Mortgage and Housing. I hope to have 
something more to say about that when Housing is up 
for discussion. 

The Government of Ontario is to be commended 
for the prompt manner in which it picked up the hot 
potato of rent control so casually dropped by the 
Federal Government, and its recognition of its impor- 
tance to our people by the setting up of a select 
committee of the House to study the problem, from 
all angles, so as to be able to bring in i-ecommenda- 
tions that villi be fair to tenant and la'-jdlord alike, 

'■/hile the unsatisfied judgment fund has been 
of great assistance, it is felt by many to be a form 
of subsidization for those unwilling to pay for 
insurance, and that applicants for drivo-^s' permits 
should be required to show proof of financial respon- 
sibility before issuing permits , and peiTaits should 
be taken away before an accident, in'^tead of after. 

As the greater part of the people of South 
York are working people, they are vitally interested 


in the operation of the Labour Relations Act. They 
are very pleased with the success of the Hon. Kr. Daley, 
Minister of Labour, during the recent strikes, and the 
methods adopted by the Government in dealing x\jith the 
negotiations. They are also pleased to learn that 
the Workmen's Compensation Act is to be further amended, 
even though it is recognized nov^ as being amongst the 
best legislation of its kind in the world. 

Particular interest has beai shown in that 
part of the Speech from the Throne dealing with the 
Government's interest in this very important matter, 
it will not be too long before the municipalities will 
be taken out of the poor relations class, off the dole, 
and placed in the desirable position of not being 
dependent on the higher levels of Governments for 
hand -outs, 

'■Jhile the Government is to be commended on 
the extent of the assistance given to the municipalities, 
the rapid and enormous increase in the size of the grants 
which has failed to satisfy the ravenous appetites of 
the recipients, must make it apparent that this policy 
can't go on forever, and the most forward step this 
Government can make towards better Government in this 
Province is to set up clear-cut responsibility in 



regards to those services which are ■ ssentially 
services to persons, and those that are services to 
property, and allocate avenues of revenue commen- 
surate with those responsibilities. 

In this way no grants would be necessary, 
municipal councils would become self-sustaining and 
would regain their self-respect and prestige which 
is sadly lacking now. At the present time in York 
Township, not more than 35 percent of the revenue derlv>-;Q 
from all sources is under the direct control of Council > 
because of the powers granted to Boards of Education, 
the Library Board, County Council, etc., yet this 
Council is held responsible for all increases in the 
tax rate by the taxpayers. In fact, during the 
recent election, my opponent, the former Leader of 
the Opposition, in a speech made in Hamilton declared 
that I and my Tory Council had increased the tax rate 
25 percent. This made it necessary for me to tell the 
electors that of the 20.9 mills increase, I6.9 mills 
went to the Board of Education, the chairman of which 
was a prominent C.C.F'er and a good friend of my 
opponent. I may add that he, too, in due course, 
followed my opponent into the ranks of the 




I mention this to point out that Municipal 
Councils do get blamed for many things beyond their 
control. While I was Reeve, a delegation appeared before 
the Council with an application for a permit to operate 
stock car racing at Oakwood Stadium, which is on the 
boundary of the City of Toronto, and is almost 
surrounded by homes. Because it was obvious this type 
of entertainment would create a serious nuisance to the 
residents, Council refused the permit and advised the 
delegation not to purchase the property for that pur- 
pose. In spite of this decision, the people concerned 
bought the property and started operations, with the 
result that Council has been stormed by delegations 
protesting the noise, fumes and parking problems thrust 
upon them, and accusing the Council of being hand in 
glove with the operators, despite the fact that numerous 
charges have been laid against them in the courts. At 
the moment there still is no indication that the Council 
v/ill be able to protect the interests of its citizens 
and stop the deliberate violations of its by-laws. 

Another thing that irks both citizens and 
Cou.ncil alike is the fact that while they have to obey 
the speed limits on Township streets, buses and street- 
cars openly ignore tham and get away with it. The 
fact that the Municipality has to pay a substantial 



road tax on those buses, while the same buses operated 
by the same company i^ass through other municipalities 
without a tax, does not tend to help the situation. 

Grants to municipalities for recreational 
purposes are subject to the approval by the Department 
of Education of the Director of Recreation which the 
Council feels is another raid on Municipal authority, 
particularly when they have recently spent over a quarter 
of a million dollars on recreation. 

One thing which is causing concern to the 
Municipality is that a year ago the residents voted 
|750,000. for the construction of a general hospital. 
The $750,000. v/as part of a program to provide 100 beds 
which were to cost ,;!5l,000,000. The other evening, the 
hospital board opened tenders and found it was going to 
cost |2, 000, 000, and now they are wondering where they 
are going to get the other |l, 000, 000. 

These are some of the things that are adding 
to the feeling of frustration being experienced by the 
Council of the Township of York, and while it does sound 
like a tale of woe, I hope it conveys the idea that I am 
prejudiced in the matter of the Municipalities, for it is 
my belief that it is essential to the well-being of 
this Province that the dignity of Municipal Government 
be restored and the municipalities be placed in a 


position where they can become self-sustaining by their 

own efforts, 

I would like to say a word now, Mr, Speaker, 
about civil defence. It seems the Federal Government 
can spend billions of dollars providing weapons for 
defence, but very little is being done to provide the 
men to handle the equipment. It is recognized that 
civil defence is essential to our well-being here. If 
it is a problem serious enough for the Federal Government 
to spend billions of dollars upon it, surely it must be 
recognized that civil defence is eq.ually as important 
as the matter of national defence, now being undertaken. 
It has been proven it is not a matter of sending arms 
and eq.uipment into the field, which would be useless 
unless you send in the troops behind them to handle the 
eq.uipment. Furthermore, I think every hon. member will 
agree that in the event of anything happening, the cities 
of this country will be subject to attack long before 
war is declared. They certainly v/ill not write to us 
and tell us they are coming. It is essential we should 
be prepared. 

There is a great deal of q_ulbbling going on as 
to who is to "pay the shot". I submit, Mr. Speaker, we 
are in the position of the chap whose epitaph I read 
recently, as follows: 


"Here lies the body of Robert Day 

lIQio died maintaing the right of way. 

He was right - dead right — as he sped along 

But nov/ he's as dead as if he was wrong". 

I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, we v;ill wake up 
and find ourselves in the same position, as regards 
civil defence, as that of the epitaph I just q^uoted, 
v/hen it comes to our arguing about who is going to "pay 
the shot". 

I would like to congratulate the hon. i.Iinister 
of Education (Mr, Dunlop) and say that his elevation to 
his present position has met with great approbation in 
my constituency. May I suggest to the hon. f.linister 
that in regard to the Technical School being erected 
in York Township, I would like to see initiated there, 
a course for home nursing so that we may encourage young 
people to become interested in the career of i^ursing, 
in which there is a great shortage at the present time. 

I wish to associate myself v/ith the Honourable 
Member for Parkdale in his suggestion that we should 
teach the children in our schools more about the 
sacrifice and effort that has made possible the great 
heritage and freedom that is theirs today. Along with 
the poems the hon. member mentioned, I suggest the 
following quotation: 


"¥/e have opened the gates of the sea. Y'Je have 
given you the keys of the world. The little 
spot ye stand on has become the centre of the 
earth. From this day forward the British 
Merchant can rove whither he will, and no man 
shall say him nay. Our Labour is done. Yours 
is to begin. Men pass away, but the people 
abide. See that you hold fast the heritage 
we leave you. Yea, and teach your children its 
value, that never in the coming centuries their 
hearts may fail them or their hands grow weak. 
Hitherto v/e have been too much afraid. Hence- 
forth we will fear only God". 

These are the words of Sir Francis Drake, 
after he had defeated the great SjEnish Armada, and 
it vms the descendants of Drake and his breed that 
conq.uered and developed this great country, and who, 
twice in the last thirty-five years, on the battlefields 
of the world, have won for this Dominion of Canada, a 
place amongst • the foremost nations of the world. Surely 
it can be no hindrance to this young nation now 
struggling to be free of the mother country after she 
has guided and protected her offspring, to foster a 
pride in the great race that has made it all possible. 

I am mindful of the suggestion made by the 
Honourable the Prime Minister that we municipal men 
should nov/ raise our sights and broaden our vision, 
and one look at the map of this grand old Province 
bears out the wisdom of that suggestion. It is also 


supported by the many requests that come from all parts 
of the Province from people who leave no doubt in one's 
mind that it is our duty to represent all the people 
of the Province. 

To this end I intend to familiarize myself 
with the problems of all parts of the Province, so that 
I may intelligently assist in their solution. At the 
same time I feel that the members, while they are here, 
should take the opportunity of visiting our constituency 
of South York, and seeing in Forest Hill Village the 
most up-to-date high school in Canada. In York Town- 
ship you will see the most modern municipal building, 
up to the minute libraries, the first successful 
outdoor artificial ice rinks and a Hydro stores building 
which won for the architects the Governor General's 
medal. In North York you will see the most modern 
incinerator on this continent operated jointly by 
York and North York Townships. 

But above all you will meet the people, your 
fellow citizens, and having met them, I am sure you will 
help me to find the ansv/er to their problems, and so do 
the job they sent me here to do. 

Mr. Speaker resumes the Chair. 




MR. ROBERT E. ELLIOTT (Hamilton East): Mr, 
Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise in this House 
as the representative for Hamilton East. I feel it 
indeed an honour to have the privilege of representing 
that great majestic City of Hamilton. 

At this time I would like to congratulate 
you, Mr. Speaker, on again occupying that very 
important office in this House, and the Hon, Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) and his cabinet for the v ery 
fine job they have been doing in administering the 
affairs of this Province, I would also like to con- 
gratulate the two Cabinet Ministers, the Hon, Minister 
of Public Works (Mr. Thomas) and the Hon. Minister 
of Health (Mr, Dunlop), two vory powerful men to 
administer the affairs of this great Province, 

Mr. Speaker, Hamilton is one of the 
very fortunate cities in the North American continent. 
We have been fortunate in having some fine aggressive 
industries; very well managed and run very efficiently 
over the years, and today they are adding tremendous 
wealth to the growth of not only Hamilton, but to 
this Province and this great Canada of ours. We 
have also in Hamilton been very fortunate. in our civic 
leadership. Just before I went into muni dl pax politics 


the late Mayor V/ilton was just leaving the Chair and 
he contributed mightily to the success of Hamilton 
in the early depression days, and following him was 
the late 'Villiam Morrison for eight years, and he 
contributed greatly to the success of that City, in 
which I served as an Alderman right through his 
administration. Then comes Samuel Lawrence, who was 
also counted as one of our great mayors of that City, 
he serving six years; and now we come up to Mr. Lloyd 
Jackson, who is now in his third year. He is one of 
the most aggressive, far-sighted mayors that probably 
Hamilton has ever known, and he has serving him. a 
very able and aggressive City Council, and although 
hard-pressed with t ax conditions, increased cost and 
all the handicaps that are laid before a Government 
of this day, Hamilton still continues to grow and 
prosper under their very able leaderships. The 
reason I am mentioning all these several things is 
that Hamilton has become great and prosperous through 
the justice and honesty of our industrial, labour and 
municipal leaders, I have never known in my time 
one case of dishonesty in our Civic Government of 
Hamilton, and mind you, when you have a Civic Govern- 


raent handling a City with a population of over 
200,000 and there has never been one hint or sugges- 
tion of graft or dishonesty in any way, that speaks 
very highly, in my opinion, of our great City of 

Hamilton to-day has many problems and the 
reason is that none of us in the past were far-sighted 
enough to see the great prosperity that lay ahead from 
the year 1945 on. No one ever dreamed that our City 
and our Province and our Canada could grow to such a 
vast extent in such a short time. Nevertheless, the 
administrations of the day have coped with it as 
well as, I believe, was humanly possible under the 
circumstances . 

Hamilton today is very short of houses and 
the main reason is that there has not been for the 
past couple of years enough serviceable land. Mind 
you, it takes time to service land. The big projects 
that are on now, concerning sewage and watering have 
taken several years of engineering before they could 
be brought into practical use, and I feel by next 
year Hamilton will be in an excellent position to 
take care of this very lack that is in force now and 
that Hamilton will then get around to the normal stride, 


and I believe will shortly catch up on at least the 
lack of housing. 

At the present time, one section of Hamilton, 
which is called the Mountain, has a population of 
32,000, which six years ago was only 3,000, and I 
believe that by 1975, or possibly before, will prob- 
ably be over 100,000. This is going to become the 
great residential area of the City of Hamilton, as new 
sewers and roads will be practically fully developed 
within the next year or two. There is still a great 
need in this area, in my opinion, for one great six- 
lane highway, of which the City is now building two 
four-lane highways, but with the increased growth, as 
forecast in this area for the future, now is the time 
to plan for the increased capacity of this area, and 
I believe this Government could help substantially in 
promoting this great six- lane highway. It may cost 
eight or ten million dollars, but would act in the 
form of a bridge to make the City of Hamilton easily 
accessible to this great area, and from our experiences 
in the past we have seen what great highways have done 
towards the development of this Province, There is 
nothing, in my opinion, that will develop an area 
quicker than good highway facilities, to take care of 
this increased area and population,. 


Now there are several other things that 
Hamilton needs, particularly this Mountain area, and one 
is a new high school, as there are now over 500 children 
travelling each day to the City to attend high schools. 
I know that is something that will have to come from 
the request of the Department of Education in Hamilton, 
and I am sure this Government will be glad to assist 
them in those developments,, 

Hamilton also needs a new administration 
or City Hall very badly. The present administration 
buildings were built to handle a city of about 50,000, 
You can understand their problems today when they are 
handling possibly over 200,000. 

There is also great need for additional sewage 
disposal plants to take care of the sewage and clean 
out properly before it is dumped in the Hamilton Bay, 
I have been told by several old timers in Hamilton 
that the Hamilton Bay used to be a fisherman's 
paradise, and there is no reason why it could not be 
one again if the sewage going into the Bay wais 
properly treated. 

There are further problems, of course, and 
one of the greatest ones is through highway facilities 
in the City proper. The old roads were built in the 
horse and buggy days and with increased use of motor 
cars and trucks, it is becoming increasingly difficult 



each year to handle through traffic problems in this 
great City, We need one good four-lane highway 
developed fully from East to West, in fact it should be 
a six-lane highway, and possibly two or taree across 
the City in opposite directions. 

All these things and many more which I mention 
are going to be needed very soon to bring this City up 
to the proper standard. 

One of the most crying needs of the Hamilton 
and Wentworth area is the continuation to the Queen 
Elizabeth Highway from the Beach. This is one of the 
busiest highways in Ontario today, particularly in the 
summer. This highway is sometimes cut off for half hours 
and hours at a time to let the boats pass in and out of 
the canal. This, in my opinion, is a purely Provincial 
problem, and I believe we should get busy and do something 
about it at the very earliest possible date. The other 
problems in the City will need substantial Provincial 
or Federal help. 

One of the greatest injustices, in my opinion, 
to all the citizens in Ontario, and Hamilton particularly, 
is the very large sums of money collected by the Federal 
Government in automobile taxes, that not one cent finds 
its way back to eliminate or alleviate the traffic 
problems the municipalities have to bear. In Hamilton 
alone, over the last few years, the Federal Government 



has taken from the citizens practically $3,000,000.00 
a year for automobile taxes. Look what v;e could do to 
improve the traffic conditions in our City if v/e even 
had a small portion of this. 

I believe, lir. Speaker, that the sooner the 
Federal Government can see their v/ay clear to helping 
the municipalities in their traffic problems and share 
some of the v/ealth that they are taking from our 
automobile traffic, the sooner we will get highways and 
roads in proper useable condition, 

Mr. Speaker, I have talked solely and wholly 
about my own native City, No doubt the same conditions 
apply in several municipalities in Ontario, but we should 
as soon as possible contact the Federal authorities and 
have them share with us some of the wealth from the 
automobile taxes so that v/e may improve our highway and 
traffic conditions. 

I am told by our police officials of Hamilton 
that one-third of the cost of policing in the City of 
Hamilton has to do with traffic. Now the Province, I 
understand, is paying 10;^ of the policing in Hamilton, 
if the Provincial and Federal Governments v/ere to take 
one-third off this, their responsibilities of policing 
traffic against our municipalities, would help our 
property owners tremendously. 



Sir. Speaker, this is something I could talk 
on for hours, I have only attempted to give you some 
of the highlights of our problems as I see them today 
in the great City of Hamilton. 

(Take "FF" ,follov;s) 


IvIR. C. G. IvIACODRTJli (Leeds): I^. Speaker, I 
have already had the opportunity of making what is 
described as my maiden speech in this Honourable House 
when addressing myself to the history making legislation 
commonly known as the St. Lawrence SesA^ay and Power 
Development. However, I do v;elcome this further 
opportunity of speaking in the debate on the Speech 
from the Throne. 

I wish first to subscribe to all that was 
said this afternoon by the hon, member from the City 
of Kingston (Mr, Nickle) which city is 50 miles to the 
west of my tovm of Brockville , but I also v/ish to 
caution The Acting Minister of Highways, as I have so,. 
often had the occasion particularly juries, not to be 
carried away by the eloquence of my hoh. friend in 
q.uoting the dire need for work on the roads which run 
through his county because as in the County of Leeds — 
as indeed in all counties in this grand province of 
Ontario -- roads have to be built and improved, and 
we are not sectional; we realize that v/e are but a 
small part of this province. 

We, in the County of Leeds, are prepared to 
come here, to sit down v/ith any hon. member regardless 
of v^rhat Party, except one, that they may represent and 
work for the common good of all. And so I say that we 



in the County of Leeds — and it has been intimated 
here this evening -- most of the hon. members of this 
House fully appreciate v/e have a duty to perform, and 
so far as I am concerned,! V7lll,representing the electors 
of the County of Leeds, endeavour to perform that to 
the best of my ability. 

(Page FF-3 follows) 

FF- 3 

■ Mr. Speaker, may I first add my words of 
congratulation to those already expressed by so many *. 
hon. members in this House on your re-appointment 
to the important position of Speaker. I am sure, 
Mr. Speaker, that it must be a source of great satis- 
faction to yourself and your good wife to know w 
that you both enjoy the respect and confidence of 
the members of this honourable House in such abundance. 

May I also, Mr. Speaker, at this early date, 
assure all members of this House that I am not one 
of those who believe that this Government, or indeed 
any Government, is faultless and does not make mis- 
takes. Governments are composed of individuals 
possessing all their virtues as also all their faults 
and failings. No doubt mistakes have bee made by this 
and preceding Governments and mistakes will continue 
to be made. That is why we have rubbers on lead 
pencils and bumpers on motor cars. 

At the same time, and without any equivoca- 
tion or reservation, I say that in my opinion this 
great Province of Ontario has never enjoyed such good 
Government as it has enjoyed and will continue to 
enjoy under the leadership of our hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr, Frost), 




Further, I do not believe that there ever 
has been a Prime ITinister who has, without thought 
of self, given more to the people than has the 
Hon. Prime Minister. I re-state what I have during 
the past few years so often stated publicly, that 
the Progressive Conservative Party in the Province 
of Ontario under the guidance of the Hon. Prime 
Minister is in substance and in fact, the party of 
the people. 

If I am permitted to give my ov/n opinion in 
praising or extolling the many virtues of the Hon. 
Prime Minister, I would say that one, if not the 
most striking characteristic, is that "He is a. .man 
with an open mind". It seems somehow criminal to 
some people to change their opinions or their minds. 
There is nothing wrong in changing one 's mind, ]\4any 
things which were true yesterday may not be true today. 
It is therefore, in my opinion, a sign of a person's 
vitality when such person is big enough to change his 
opinion to meet changed circumstances. He is, there- 
fore, a wise man who keeps his mind open so that he 
recognizes important changes. 

The Hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost) has, even 
during the brief Session of this honourable House, 


made it plainly evident, that he is receptive to 
and invites any constructive suggestion from any 
hon. member with regards to any matter which is for 
the betterment of the people. 

It is not my purpose to make, at least at 
this time, any personal reference to the hon. member 
who represents St. Andrew, other than to say that I 
quite appreciate the awkward position which he finds 
himself in his state of solitary confinement and 
this may in part explain vjhy he has been so verbose. 

The actions of the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mt?, Salsberg) in the House to date, remind me of 
this little poem -- 

"I gave a little tea-party this afternoon 
at three. 
Three guests in all played in the Hall, 
I, Myself, and Me. 

Myself ate all the sandwiches. 

While I drank all the tea, 

T'was also I who ate the pie, 

And passed the cake to me," 

Mr, Speaker, at this early date, I wish to 
pay my personal tribute to the Hon. Minister of Labour 
(Mr. Daley) who has obtained the confidence of both 


labour and management in that both parties know that 
he is a man who can be trusted, a man ready at all 
times to be a patient listener and lend a guiding 
hand in mediating the differences which arise between 
the respective parties. 

Mr. Speaker, when referring to Labour, may I 
say that there is no member of this honourable House 
who has a higher regard for the ranks of Labour than 
I have. At all times have I placed much reliance on 
the good, sound common sense of the ordinal:^ individual, 
and, because of this, I have found through personal 
experience that the rank and file of labour possess 
such good common sense and can be trusted. Over a 
period of years, I have been closely associated with 
Labour, In my early life I worked as a pipefitter's 
helper in the shipyards at Halifax, Nova Scotia, and 
later as a labourer and truck driver for a private 
contractor in this Province. During my practice of 
law, I have on several occasions acted for local 
unions on arbitrations, conciliations and other matters; 
So I do modestly feel that I have an understanding 
as to the problems of Labour. For this and other 
reasons, I now say that the Progressive Conservative 

1 ■■• ; ! 1.- 



Government is studded with amendments and new legis- 
lation to protect the worker and assist him, or her, 
to a happy and complete life. Time only permits a 
brief naming of some of this legislation. 

The Apprenticeship Act, 

The Factory, Shop and Office Building Act. 

The Fair Employment Practices Act, 1951, 
commonly known as the "No discrimination bill" which 
Act provides that no employer shall discriminate 
against any person in ret,ard to employment, or any 
term or condition of employment because of his race, 
creed, colour, nationality, ancestry or place of 

(Page FF-g follows) 


Hon. members, I know, like myself, yoa were 
thrilled to read the speech of the hon. member from 
Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko). Unfortunately, I was not in 
the House, having been called away. V:/hen I read that 
speech, my blood tingled. Is that not a striking 
illustration of v/hat this province and what this country 
holds out to a man? His father came from distant lands 
as so many of our fathers also came, and was not this 
to the everlasting credit of this Government when they 
did introduce, v/hioh they did, this^No Discrimination 


is it then anj' wonder that increasinly we are 
finding that with one voice the ranks of labour are 
uniting in support of the Progressive Conservative 
Government under the leadership of the Hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost)? 

I should also like to commend the hon. 
Minister of Welfare (Mr. Goodfellow), who^ in line 
with the policies of this Government, recognizes that 
the general welfare of the people is the first 
responsibility of any Government. And let it not 
be forgotten that this Department was established 
in 1931 by the Conservative Administration under 
Premier Howard Ferguson. 

Many and varied have been the advanced 
social legislation enacted and now under the super- 
vision of this Department. 


Under the present Progressive Conservative 
Government Old Age Pension benefits have been 
Increased three times by Provincial Government 

The present Mothers' Allowances Act was 
redrafted and approved by the Legislature in 19^8, 
under the present Minister of Public Welfare (Mr. 

Ontario is the only jurisdiction of its 
type contributing 50 per cent of the capital cost 
of erecting new, modern homes for the aged. The 
Province, as well, pays 5U per cent of maintenance 

In 19^3, the Government of the day spent 
$83,270 for homes for the aged. In 1951, the 
Progressive Conservative Administration expended 
$1,917,000 on this great social programme on behalf 
of the aged citizens of the Province. 

Child Welfare -- which Includes the 
Children's Aid Societies; the Government under 
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) has done much 
to assist in this great work. For the fiscal 
year ending March, 1952, provincial aid amounted 
to approximately $1,571,000 as against $208,915 
for the comparable period of 1942-43 under another 
Administration . 


I could tell you case after case of fathers 
and mothers who come to my office seeking the benefit 
of the work of this Society and they come not in vain, 

This Act has already been referred to as 
Government legislation in the present Session. It 
is a matter of interest that Ontario recommended such 
a programme to the Federal authorities during the 
last Dominion-provincial Conference, but lacking a 
receptive attitude began its own plan to shoulder • 
this compassionate obligation. The programme will 
provide direct assistance to disabled persons from 
ages 18 to 65 years and as well will render medical 
services to the disabled group. 

I Join with all other hon. members of this 
House in expressing my regret that by reason of an. 
unfortunate and serious motor accident the hon. 
Minister of Highways (Mr. Doucett) is prevented from 
being with us. In spite of Party ties, I am satis- 
fied that all of the hon. members of this 
House join with me in voicing the hope that the 
hon. Minister will continue to improve on the 
road to health so that he may again actively 
participate in directing this most important 
Department of Government . 

We In the County of Leeds are particularly 
interested in the legislation enacted by this 
Government in the matter of the development of 
roads in that throughout our county there are a 
great many rural communities with sizeable 


populations that have been, and are, without proper 
highways to connect these areas with existing 
municipal or provincial systems, and I trust that 
the Department during this year will look with 
favour on requests which I, as the elected repre- 
sentative of the County of Leeds, have already made 
for assistance under the Road Development legis- 

With respect to education, I wish to pay 
tribute to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) for 
having successfully, persuaded the present hon. 
Minister of Education (Mr. Dunlop) to take control 
of this most Important Department because there is 
nothing more fundamental or more Important to the 
life of any province or any country than education. 
That is fundamental. An educated electorate is an 
Intelligent electorate, so I say that the hon. 
Prime Minister is indeed to be congratulated in 
obtaining the services of such an eminent 
educationalist as the hon. Minister of Education. 

Further, I am one of those who believe that 
it would be most difficult to spend too much money 
on education. I am one of those who feel that we 
should raise the teachers' salaries to such a high 
level as to attract and to hold the best minds that 
this country can offer. 

The policy of the present Administration 
may best be stated by reading a few sentences from 
the 1951 Budget Speech. 




"The Government is determined that 
no obstacle shall stand in the way of 
the children of this province enjoying 
every advantage which our educational 
institutions can make available. 
Equality of opportunity is the 
beacon and goal of our people." 

May I also congratulate the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost) for the consideration and 
interest which he has manifested in assisting 
farmers and farmers ' sons . Living as I do in the 
best dairy county of this Province, I can assure 
this hon. House that farmers, young and old, in 
my county will appreciate the assistance which has 
been intimated in the Speech from the Throne. As 
a lawyer, practising in the County Town of Brock- 
ville, I do know the difficulty encountered by 
young farmers who require capital to start on 
their own, and it is gratifying to know that there 
is good reason to believe that financial assistance 
will be made available to young farmers. 

In conclusion, I will briefly refer to the 
legislation on the St. Lawrence Waterway and Power 
Development project in that these measures very 
directly affect the County which I have the honour 
to represent. The legislation introduced at this 
session may properly be referred to as "Hi story 
Making^legislatlon. It is my hope that the Council 
of my town of Brockville, working in close co- 
operation with our Chamber of Commerce, will forth- 
with take steps to invite the respective Federal 
and Provincial representatives in Eastern Ontario, 



extending at least from Kingston to Cornwall, 
together with County Wardens and Township' Reeves 
in this area, to a meeting in Brockville. This 
great project is not confined by any political 
party ties in that all are united in the hope of 
making our Province a greater Province and our 
Dominion a greater Dominion. It is therefore 
fitting that the historic and progressive Town 
of Brockville should give leadership so that 
proper representation may be made to both the 
Federal and Provincial Governments to assure that 
the natural beauty of the majestic St. Lawrence, 
which flows past our door, will not be lost sight 
of as work on this mighty project moves forward. 

MR. E. P. MORNINGSTAR (Welland) : Mr. ' 
Speaker, I move the adjournment of the Debate. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I move the adjournment of the House. 

Tomorrow we will proceed with Government 
business, with Bills. I have not the Order Paper 
here, at least I have not studied the Order Paper, 
but if there is anything that my hon. friend (Mr. 
Oliver) finds is objectionable, I will hold it over. 
I shall be very glad to do that and also for my good 
friend from South Cochrane (Mr. Grummett). 

Motion agreed to . 

The House adjourned at 9.35 p.m. 


I : 'i ■• 

of tl|V 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XVII 

Friday, March 14, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

^. CO-. Sturgeon, 
Chief Hansard Reporter 
Parliament Buildings 

- A - 



February 21st to March 13, 1952 (inclusive). 

May the following corrections be made in the trans- 
cript of the debates and proceedings of the 1st Session 
of the 24th Legislatiinre of the province of Ontario, please? 

Vol. I Page B-2 

Page C-9 

line 12: Change "King of England" 

to "King of Greag Britain". 

" 22: Change "Queen of England" 

to "Queen of Great Britain." 

line 24. Change "apparently" to 

VOL. VIII Page E-1 line 9. Change "40" to "48". 

" G-16 " 1. Change "Botes" to "Bates". 

Vol. X. Page GG-4 Line 24: After the word "not" insert 

"oppose". and 

After the word "Bill" insert 
the word "but". 

Page GG-7, line 6, After the word "overseas" 

insert "is rapidly getting- 

Vol. XI. Page F-2. line 17: Change "attack" to "attract". 

Errata (2). 

- B - 

Vol. XI, Page F-9. 

Line 3: Between the v/ords "its" and 
"professional" insert the 
v/ords "industrial areas". 

Vol. II. Page F02. line 3, 

line 9. 

Between words "and" and "godd 
will" insert "people of". 

Delete word "payingl^ and 
chan^ "greatest reward" to 
"highest rating". 

Vol. XIII, Page F-3.1ine 30, 

Page F-6. line 17, 

Check word "hydro". If 
"High Park" was left in 
inadvertently, please 
chsoiige to "Hydro", 
Change "work" to "word". 

Vol. XV, Pafee H-8. 

Page 1-6. 

After last line, insert 
first 13 lines on page 1-6, 
Then transcript; proceeds on 
page I-l, et seq.. 

Delete first 12 lines. 



of the 

IN Tm p;j^li;j^jEnt buildings, Toronto, ont.pjo, on 

THURSDAY, FEBRUJ-RY 21st, 1952, et seq.. 

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. Davies , Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario. 
Friday, liarch 14, 1952. 

The House having met. 2 o'clock p.m. 


m., SPEx.KER: I beg leave to inform the House 
that the Clerk of the House has received from the 
Commissioners of Estate Bills, their report in the 
following case: "Private Bill No. 13, to incorporate 
the Trustees of Massey Hall." 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The Commlss; ©ners of 
Estate Bills, present the following as their reports, 
re Private Bill No. 13- 


The Undersigned, as Commissioners of 
Estate Bills, have considered the above-mentioned 
Bill, and now beg to report thereon. 

Presuming the allegations contained in the 
preamble to the Bill to be proved to the satisfaction 
of the House, it is in our opinion reasonable that 
such Bill do pass into a law, and, subject to the 
alterations or amendments hereinafter set forth, 
the provisions of the said Bill are proper for 
carrying Its purposes into effect. 

The alterations and amendments that are, in 

our opinion, proper and necessary to be made in the 

Bill as submitted, are the following: 

1. In Sec. 2, in the 5th Line thereof, 
after the words Cfor the time being", 
insert the words "and from time to time." 

?.. In Sec. 5, ss. 3, at the end thereof, 
add the words, "upon the application of 
any member of the Board or the Public 
Trustee . " 

3. In Sec. 9, ss. 2, line 4, after the 

word ^Part", strike out "I" and insert 

Vc return herewith the said Bill and the 

Petition 'therefor. 

AS WITNESS our respective hands. 


) "R. S. Robertson" 
"Irene Rouse" ) )Commissioners 

) "Colin Gibson" J. A. ) 





IvDR. SPEi'JCE!;: Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting reports by committees. 

IvIE. J. A. PRINGLS (Addington) : Mr. Speaker, 
I beg leave to present the third report of the Select 
Committee appointed to select lists of mejnbers to compose 
the Standing Committees of the House and move its 

THE CLERK .ISSISTJ-NT: IG-. Pringle from the Commi^, 
appointed to prepare the lists of iJembers to compose the 
Standing Committees of the House befs leave to present 
the following as its third report :- 

Your Committee recommends that the Standing 
Committees named hereunder be composed as follows: 


Llessrs. Allan (Haldimand-Norf oik) , Challies, 
Cowling, Elliott, Grummett , Houck, Janes, MacOdrum, 
Patrick, Villencuve, V/eaver, V,Tiitney - 12. 

The Quorum of the said Committee to consist 
of five members. 


Messrs. Beckett, Beech, Connell, Fullerton, 
Herbert, Hunt, Kerr, Leavine, Myers, IvIcPhee , Reaume , , 
Thomas (Ontario) - 12. 


Messrs. Brandon, Cathcart, Cowling, Edwards, 
Harvey, Morningstar, Murdoch, Noden, Roberts (St. 
Patrick) , Stewart, Thomas (Ontcirio) , V/ren - 12. 


The Quorum of the said Committee to 
consist of five members. 

All of v;hich is respectfully submitted. 

Motion agreed to. 

I.IR. SPEiJ<:ER: Motions. 
. HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I move, seconded by Mr. 'Jelsh, that a Select 
Committee of this House be appointed to enq.uire into and 
review The Companies' Act of the the Province of Ontario 
and related ^icts, including The Extra Provincial Cor- 
porations Act, the Companies' Information Act, The Mort- 
main and Charitable Uses Act and regulations made 
thereunder and makin£: such enquriy into similar legislation 
of the Parliament of Canada and the Legislatures of the 
respective Provinces of Canada and other jurisdictions 
and the Committee on Uniformity of Legislation, with a 
view to recommending improvements in the legislation of 
this Legislature which is in force in this Province, and 
for these purposes to consider a Bill to be submitted to 
this House under the title of The Companies' Act, 1958, 

^ilW that the Select Cornraittee have authority 
to sit during the interval between Sessions and have 
full pa'/er and authority to appoint or employ counsel 
and secretary and such other personnel as may be deemed 
advisable and to call for persons, papers and things 
and to examine witnesses under oath, and the Assembly 


doth command and compel attendances before the said 
Select Committee of such persons and the production 
of such papers and things as the Committee may deem 
necessary for any of its "proceedings and deliberations, 
for which purpose The Honourable The Speaker may 
issue his warrant or warrants. 

AND the said Committee to consist of nine 
members to be composed as follows: 

Messrs. Roberts, Chairman; Porter, Welsh 

Thomas (Elgin), Brandon, Nickle, Weaver, 

Chartrand and Grummett . 

I might Just explain to the House that this 
motion Implements one of the matters contained in the 
Speech from the Throne. The Companies' ^ct and the 
related Act, of course, are very important and, 
indeed, are verj/ complicated acts. For a number of 
years, the Departments have been exchanging views 
in relation to this Act through the Committee on 
Uniformity. The hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. 
Welsh) and his Department have been Interested in 
that and also the hon. Attorney -General (Mr. 
Porter. We had contemplated bringing in an Act 
which brought each Act up to date, in line with 
present practices, but, after •.consideration, we felt 
that it was a matter upon which we might get a 
wider expression of opinion if we introduced this 
Bill and referred It to a Select 

(Page A-6 follows.) 


Committee. Corporations, of cc^urse , are playing an 
increasing part in our vay of life. Corporate design 
or entity is one which has become very, very important. 
iis has been indicated to the House, corporations are 
forming a very important part of the tax structure field 
of this province , the Federal G-overntaent , and some of 
the other provinces. However, the purpose of this Bill 
is not for that reason. It is for the purpose of bring- 
ing up to date our practices in connection with the 
various involved matters which have to do with corpora- 

In formin{:^ this Committee, our purpose is to 
afford ample opportunity to thoroughly enquire into 
the effects of these thin<5S on our m'ay of doing business. 
You will notice on the Committee, wo have some farmer 
hon. members. The purpose, of course, is that there 
are sections of the x^ct dealing with co-operatives, some- 
thing that is increasingly important in this province, 
and may be a f^reat deal more important as time goes on. 
The hon. Minister of .^?riculture (iilr. Kennedy) says, 
it is "'nice to have honest people on the Committee", 
I think that is riiht, I think these hon. members are 
all honest people. I v/ould not v;ant to have any dis- 
pute between Toronto and the rural v/ay of life as 
represented by the hon. Minister of Agriculture 


(Mr. Kennedy)' 

However, I think this is a method by which 
we may obtain information on this important Act. It 
Is not .a matter of Government policy, it is a 
matter of getting the combined wisdom of this 
Chamber in connection with these important matters, 
and that is the purpose of this Committee. 

In this Legislature, we have a variety of 
views. We have turned more to the Committee method 
of handling things. I think that has been the 
tendency now for some -^-ears back. In a day or 
two, I hope to introduce a motion concerning the 
Elections Act, so that we may have an impartial 
consideration of the effect of the Act after a year 
in operation. It was a very important year, too. 
We may have a revision and a review of the matters 
contained in that certain Act. In putting this 
motion, I have confidence that the people of 
Ontario will have a godd job done for them and, 
as I say, while the Committee is confined to 
nine hon. members, the Committee has authorlty 
to sit during the recess between the sittings of 
this House. This Committee is representative of 
all parties in the House, and if any hon. members 
have any views in that connection, we suggest they 
should communicate that fact to the hon. Chairman 
of the Committee or, indeed, attend the Committee 
meetings themselves, to advance their proposals. 


Motion agreed to, 

IVIR. SPEijv^R: Introduction of Bills. 

HON. G. A. V.ELSH (Provincial Secretary): moves 
first reading of Bill intituled, "The Companies' Act, 

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 

(Take "B" foll^vs) 



He said: Mr. Speaker, there Is very 
little that I can add to what the hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) has said regarding the introduction of 
this Bill but there are one or two things that I 
would like to point out. 

In Ontario practically.' all corporations, with 
very few exceptions, such as loan and trust corpora- 
tions and credit unions, are incorporated under the 
general provisions of the Companies Act. The 
Companies Act extends to the incorporation of 
almost every type of companj^ including industrial, 
manufacturing, mining companies, retail stores. 
Insurance companies, public utilities, charitable 
corporations and athletic corporations. 

Each year nearly three thousand new incor- 
porations are carried out under this Act and at the 
present time there are about twenty thousand com- 
panies doing business in Ontario which were incor- 
porated under this Act and are therefore subject 
to the provisions of the Companies Act. 

The Companies Act is one of the more im- 
portant Acts of the Legislature and one that is 
constantly in use. The present Companies Act was 
enacted in I907 and apart from a consolidation in 
1912, the Act has never been completely revised 
in forty -five years. While .generally speaking, the 
Act is workable, there are man;y Improvements which 
might be made and man^ ambiguities corrected. A 
revision of the Act would, I think, be desirable. 

Motion agreed to: first reading of the Bill. 






HON. vJ. GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning 
and Development) moves first reading of Bill 
intituled, "An Act to amend the Conservation 
Authorities Act . " 

He said: Mr. Speaker, may I say in connec- 
tion with this Act that there are ten different 
amendments all designed for the purpose of better 
administration of the Act. They are practically 
all procedural and, as I said before, designed to 
carry out a better administration of the Act and 
in no way change the principle. Therefore, through 
consulting with the different authorities interested 
in this, many of these amendments were asked for 
and I should be glad to give a further explanation 
upon second reading. 

MR. P. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
May I ask the Minister, does the Bill contain any 
machinery to set up financial arrangements between 
the province and the municipalities for the making 
of grants to the municipalities? 

MR. GRIESINGER: That is already there. 

MR. OLIVER: There is no new machinery set 
up by this Bill? 


Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill. 


MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills. 

Orders of the Da;y . 

HON. C. DALEY (Minister of Labour): Mr. 
Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like 
to draw to your attention, sir, that we are pleased, 
I think, and probably particularly honoured, to have 
in our galleries toda^- under the supervision of the 
director of a school in St. Catharines, Mr. McMullen, 
some l40 young .people. 

1 am sure, Mr. Speaker, that we as a legis- 
lature welcome the visit of these young people from 
the various municipalities and extend to them a 
welcome and hope that they will have a pleasant and 
Instructive visit with us and that they will return 
safely to their homes. 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 

Speaker, I beg to table answers to Questions 34, 35 

and 50. . " 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth order, second 
reading. Bill No. 3, an- Act respecting the Citv of 
Stratford. Mr. Edwards. 

MR. J. F. EDWARDS (Perth) moves second reading 
of Bill No. 3, intituled, "An Act respecting the 
City of Stratford." 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 7th Order, second 

reading Bill No. 5, an Act respecting the City of 

Sault Ste. Marie. Mr. Lyons. 

MR. W. MURDOCH (Essex South), In the absence 

of Mr. Lyons, moved second reading of Bill No. 5j 

Intituled, "An Act respecting the City of Sault Ste. 

Marie . " 

Motion agreed to: second reading of the 



CLERK OP THE HOUSE: 8th Order, second 
reading Bill No. 6, "An Act respecting the Town of 
Tlmmlns Separate School Board." Mr. Grummett. 

MR. W. J. GRUMMETT (Cochrane South) moves 
second reading of Bill No. 6, intituled, "An Act 
respecting the Town of Tlmmlns Separate School Board." 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 9th Order, second 

reading Bill No. 8, an Act respecting J. L. 

Thompson Supply Limited. Mr. Parry. 

MR. G. W. PARRY (Kent West) moves second 

reading of Bill No. 8, intituled, an Act respecting 

J. L. Thompson Supply Limited." 

Motion agreed to: second reading of the 



CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 10th Order, second 

reading Bill No. 27, an Act respecting the Town of 

Barrie. Mr. Johnston (Simcoe Centre). 

MR. G. G. JOHNSTON (Simcoe Centre )drnoves 
second reading of Bill Nos. 27, intituled, . "An 
Act respecting the Town of Barrie." 

Motion agreed to: second reading of the 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 11th Order, second 
reading Bill No. 7, an Act respecting the City of 
Fort William. Mr. Mapledoram (Fort William). 

MR. E. L. WEAVER (St. David), in the 
absence of Mr. Mapledoram, moves second reading of 
Bill No. 7, intituled, "An Act respecting the City 
of Fort William." 

Motion agreed to: second reading of the 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 12th Order, Bill No. 
17, an Act respecting the Municipality of Neebing. 
Mr. Mapledoram. (Fort William). 

MR. W. MURDOCH (Essex South) in the absence 
of Mr. Mapledoram, moves second reading of Bill 
No. 17, intituled, "An Act respecting the municipal- 
ity of Neebing. " 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the 




CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 13th Order, second 
reading Bill No. 30, an Act respecting the Town of 
Port Erie. Mr. Houck. 

MR. W. L. HOUCK (Niagara Palls) moves second 
reading of Bill No. 30 intituled, "An Act respecting 
the Town of FortT.Erle. 

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture); 
I wonder if the hon. member would hold Bill No. 30 
for a little while. It affects three departments 
in the Government and we would like to study it, and 
see how far it affects us. 

MR. HOUCK: I shall be only too glad, Mr. 
Speaker, to acquiesce to the request of the Minister 
of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy). I had consulted with 
him the other da^ and he said it was perfectly 
all right as far as he was concerned. 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: l4th Order, second 
reading Bill No. 33, an Act respecting the Township 
of McKim. Mr. Fullerton. 

MR. W. MURDOCK (Essex South), in the absence 
of Mr. Fullerton, moves second reading of Bill No. 33 
intituled, "An Act respecting the Township of 

Motion agreed to: Second reading of the 


HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, I move that ; ou do now leave the Chair and 
the House resolve Itself into Committee of the 

Motion agreed to. 

The House in Committee. 

MR. T. L. PATRICK (Middlesex North) in the 
Chair . 

CLERK OP THE HOUSE: Order No. 23, House 
in Committee on Bill 73, an net to provide for the 
making of inquiries in connection with hospitals, 
sanitoria, charitable Institutions and other 
organizations. Mr. Porter. 

,. Section 1 agreed to, on Section 2. 

(Take "C" follows) 


Sections 2 to 4 inclusive, agreed to. 

Bill No. 73 reported. 

HOK. L. M. FRObT (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Chairman, I move the Committee rise and report a 
certain Bill without amendment,. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House resumes, 

Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 

I^'IR. T. L. PATRICK (Middlesex North): Mr. 
Speaker, the Committee of the V/hole House begs to 
report one Bill without amendment, and moves the 
adoption of the report. 

Motion agreed to. 
• CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 2gth Order, Second Reading 
of Bill No, 53, "An Act to Amend the Plant Diseases Act", 
Mr, Kennedy, 

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture) 
moves second reading of Bill No. 53, "An Act to Amend 
the Plant Diseases Act". 

He said: This is a simple Bill, Mr. Speaker, 
but I think I might state the reason for this amendment. 

Through our research efforts we have gone a 
long way ahead of v;here we were a few years ago, 
Eighty percenb of all the nursery stock grown in Canada 


is grown in the Province of Ontario, ^^e work ve.y 
closely with the Ottawa inspectors, because they inspect 
all the nursery stock which leaves the Province, while 
we inspect all that is sold in the Province. So we 
have to do some almost impossible things. 

To-day our inspectors can go out and look at 
the nursery stock, and by looking at the leaves, can 
tell exactly what variety of fruit it is, and they are 
right one hundred percent of the time. 

Years ago, if v;e had eighty percent correct, 
v;e were very lucky, but to-day they are enabled to tell 
one hundred percent what varieties they are, simply 
because of the research that has been done on this 

A great deal of v/ork is done at Vineland 
Experimental Farm. It is a wonderful place, and I 
hope every hon. member will find an opportunity to go 
there, and inspect this great research station. 

In 1932 I went over to Cornell University, 
As you know, every State College has some 
specialty; Iowa has pigs; I/isconsin has corn; the 
Carolinas have tobacco, and Florida has the citrus 
fruits, and Cornell specializes in orchard fruits. 
I went down there, to see the new varieties of peaches, 
apples and grapes, and they took me up to their 


branch station at Geneva, and showed me what they were 
doing. I said, "What about the new variety of peaches?" 
and they said, "Here is the book we issue and supply to 
the people of the State of New York". I looked in the 
book, and the three first varieties they recommended for 
the northern portion of the State of New York were those 
grown at Vineland Experimental Farm. They suggested I 
go and see a Doctor Passer at Vineland, and he would 
give me all the information I required. 

We are doing a great work in research. We 
built a laboratory, and we have some new variety of 
grapes, but that is a story in itself. 

When we tried to get fifteen hundred grape 
vines from France, they said we could not have them. 
They told us we would have to buy their wine, but they 
would not let the plants go out of the country. 

However, vie have them now, and it provided a 
wonderful revolution in grape growing, and that new 
method of growing is what they are espousing now. 
They have done grent work with these new varieties, 
Tha^ is why I say sincerely that we are doing things 
now we never did before, in fact, which we thought we 
never could do before, 

I move second reading of the Bill, Mr, 
Speaker, and before it goes into Committee of the V/hole, 



it will be referred to the Agricultural Committee for 
their consideration. 

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 29th Order, Second Reading 
of Bill No. 54, "The ^'Jarble Fly Control Act, 1952". 

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture) 
moves second reading of Bill No. 54. 

He said: Before moving second reading of 
this Bill, I want to explain why this Act has been 
brought in- There are two important reasons for it 
being brought before this House. To begin with Warble 
Flies cause many millions of dollars damage to our 
important cattle industry here in Ontario. These losses 
affe<)t everyone directly or indirectly, V7e have a 
wonderful livestock industry here in this Province and 
one of which we can be proud. Indeed, it is my belief 
that outside of Jersey Island, there is no place in 
the world which is so free of cattle diseases and 
pests as is Ontario, 

That this is the case, is no accident. In 
the Fall of 1944 we, in the Department of Agriculture* 
conceived the idea that it was possible to make all 
the animals in the Province free of disease. 7/e knew 
if this were achieved the markets of the world would 


be ours for the sale of Ontario livestock. 

For the purpose of considering this idea, a 
meeting was called in one of the Committee Rooms here 
in these buildings, "hen the idea was explained many 
of those present were not much impressed. I might say 
this was true of some of our own officials. They 
thought the task of freeing Ontario livestock of disease 
was impossible. 

However, a blue-eyed, red-haired Scotchman 
who was present came to me and told me that they had 
achieved this condition on the Health farms and he saw 
no reason why it could not be done over the whole 
Province, That man was Dr. A. L. McNabb, the late 
Principal of Ontario Veterinary College. He has since 
passed away, stricken when he was at the peak of his 
career and when his goal of ridding Ontario livestock 
of disease was in sight — a task to which he devoted 
himself from the time that meeting was held. 

To give you some idea of the job which has 
been done, I would like to review some of the achieve- 
ments in this field. I know we were told it was 
impossible to do some of these things, but I like the 
motto which some of my neighbours and friends have. 
This motto is "The difficult we do immediately, the 
impossible takes a. little longer." Well, we have 


not been too long on this job, but a great deal has 
been done. 

A start had been made previous to this time, 
of course. Ottawa started working on the problem 
of the control of tuberculosis in cattle some time ago, 
and we in the Ontario Department of Agriculture have 
co-operated with them in this programme. Our major 
share of the job was to prepare the counties or dis- 
tricts for the test. This involved arranging and holding 
meetings of farmers to acquaint them with the purpose 
of the tests and how they would be carried out. When 
we had their interest aroused in this manner, a petition 
v;as sent to Ottawa to have their county or territory 
tested. The tests were carried out and, where infected 
animals were discovered, they were destroyed, 

"7hat I want to point out is that in the begin- 
ning there was some opposition to the work. This 
opposition, along with the magnitude of the job of 
testing all the cattle in the Province of Ontario, made 
it appear to be an impossible task. Well it was impos- 
sible, if you accept the motto I mentioned earlier. 
The job was not accomplished immediately. It took a 
little longer, but it has been accomplished with the 
assistance of Ottawa, and to-day we are free of Bovine 
Tuberculosis right from one end of this Province to 


the other. 

Another major problem in the health field 
was that of Bang's Disease or Contagious Abortion in 
cattle. This disease used to cost our farmers about 
$17 million every year. At the same time, it made it 
difficult for us to ship our breeding stock to other 
countries, and the selling of breeding stock to the 
countries of the world is an important part of our live- 
stock business, about which I'll have more to say later, 

I remember going to Albany at one time, and 
talking to some of the officials. At that time it was 
very dfificult to get cattle into the United States at 
all, but from that day, until three or four weeks ago, 
our cattle went gradually and easily into every State 
in the Union, 

Earlier I said that we knew if we could control 
disease, the markets of the world would be ours. This 
has certainly proven to be the case. Ontario purebred 
cattle have been shipped all over the world in recent 
years and our exports to the United States in particular 
have gone up tremendously. In 194-5? we sold 19,^44 dairy 
and purebred cattle to Americans. In 1951, because of 
the health standards and the high quality of our stock, 
our sales of dairy and purebred cattle had risen to 
41,^22 or more than double the number seven years earlier. 



We have also sent cattle to almost every 
part of Europe, We have sent them to Great Britain — 
and that is a difficult thing to do, because Great 
Britain does not import many cattle; they feell theirs. 
We sent them to Germany, to France, to Spain, to 
Italy, South Africa, Israel, Northern Africa, every 
part of South America, every part of the British West 
Indies, to Cuba, Puerto Rica, and to every state in 
the United States, to New Zealand, Australia, and we 
sent one or two into India. That was all for the 
purpose of improving the cattle. That shows the 
reservoir of purebred cattle. 

Again, Dr. McNabb tackled the problem and 
got results. Under his direction, we started a programme 
of Calfhood Vaccination to control Bant's Disease, 
In this programme, calves were vaccinated between the 
ages of 6 and 9 months. Again we got results, and they 
were so good that the programme has spread beyond the 
boundaries of Ontario. In November of 1950 we induced 
the Federal Government to come in with us on this pro- 
gramme under a Dominion-Provincial Agreement, Under 
this new set-up, the Federal Government supplied the 
vaccine with the Ontario Veterinary College distributing 
it and looking after the administration. The actual 
vaccination is performed by a practising veterinarian, 




with the farmer paying him for the work. As a result 
of the programme begun by Dr. McNabb, we are on the 
last lap of eradicating this dread disease of Contagious 
Abortion in our livestock. 

Another disease which causes serious losses, 
particularly to the dairymen is Mastitis. Again, work 
under the direction of Dr. McNabb was helpful. The 
problem has not been removed, but I can say we are just 
finishing the first half of the job of cleaning up 
this problem and the work is continuing. 

Now, what about this 'iarble Fly that is 
referred to in this Act? While not a disease, the 
Warble Fly does affect the health of the animals and 
it has caused losses running into many millions of 
dollars to the livestock industry annually. These 
losses take two forms. There is the loss which results 
from the warble fly living in the animals and causing 
considerable pain and discomfort. There is the other 
loss from the holes made in the hides of the animals 
by the warble. 

These Warbles are peculiar insects. The 
trou:le starts during the summer when the Warble Flies 
— which are the adult stage of the insect — lay their 
eggs on the hair of the lower legs of the cattle. Soon 
these eggs hatch into tiny grubs which burrow their way 


through the skin at that point. Once under the skin 
they travel through the body of the animals and by 
spring they reach the back v;here they are still under 
the skin but cut holes in it. As you can imagine, 
these grubs burrowing through the animals and living 
off them are most painful. It is hard to estimate the ^ 
losses they cause by impairing the health of the 
animals and reducing the production of meat or milk, 
but the loss is certainly great. Then when they 
finally emerge through the holes in the hide, they 
leave these holes which spoil the hide for future use 
ad leather. Again the loss is very substantial. 

Recognizing this problem, it too has been 
tackled in much the same way as the disease problems. 
We first started a test of methods of control in the 
Township of Goderich some years ago. The method used 
was that of spraying the animals with an insecticide knovr: 
to kill the warbles. The test was so successful that 
we decided to gQ into it on a Province-wide basis and 
an Act was passed for this purpose. This required a 
nunicipal council to pass a by-law requiring all cattle 
within the area to be treated for warble fly, upon 
receipt of a petition bearing the signatures of more 
than two-thirds of the cattle owners in that munici- 



pality. Grants were provided by the Government which 
reimbursed municipalities complying with the Act to 
the extent of 50% of the salary and travelling expenses 
of inspectors and 50^ of the cost of the Derris Powder 
used to control the warbles. 

Last year a quarter of a million cattle 
located in 36 townships received treatment. The 
animals were treated twice, in conformance with the 
practice considered most effective in obtaining good 
control and the results of the work have been most satis- 
factory. It is expected that 20 additional municipalities 
will come into the programme this year and we hope in a 
few years all those concerned with the problum will do 
so. Under such a programme, we feel sure the warble f].y 
in a few years will be a thing of the past. This will 
be an important factor in further promoting efficient 
and economical production of livestock and their 

I would like to emphasize once again, Mr, 
Speaker, the importance of this livestock industry 
to Ontario. In 1949 the cattle and calves produced 
in Ontario were valued at almost ,A40 million dollars. 
In 1950 the value was <;i;l60 millions and in 1951 it was 


estimated at ,^195 millions, !"7hen other livestock and 
poultry are added, the production of the whole live- 
stock industry in Ontario in 1951 was placed at some 
520 million dollars. 

.'light I also point out, Mr, Speaker, that 
this livestock business is a renewable resource. It 
is not like mines where, once the product is removed, 
it is gone. Our production of animal products has been 
very great, but each year there are more cattle left 
in the Province than were sold. For these reasons, I 
feel that the work which has been dione to control 
disease and pests is important, not only to the live- 
stock men but to the whole Province, 

As T mentioned earlier, this Warble Fly 

Control work vas begun several years agoy An Act was 

passed in connection with it. However, this was a new 

field and the experience we have had has shown where 

changes were necessary. For this reason, the '."Jarble 

Fly Control Act, 1952, was prepared. Mr, Speaker, 

I move the second reading of the ^.Jarble Fly Control 

Act, 1952, and recommend it go to the Agricultural 


Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill. 

(Take "D" follows) 


HON. LESLIE LI. FROST (Prime I'iinister) : Mr. 
Speaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair and 
the House resolve itself into Comraittee of the V/liole. 

Motion agreed to. 

House in Go:ni::ittee : Mr. Dovner in the Chair. 

CLERK OF THE HOUS...: First Order, House in 
Gonmlttee on Bill No. 1, ":"ji Act respecting the Tovm of 
New Toronto", 

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to. 

Preamble agreed to. 

Bill No. 1 reported.. 


CLERK OF THE. HOUSE: Second Order, House in 
Committee on Bill No. S, "iji Act respecting the City of 
Sarnia Separate School Board". 

Sections 1. to 6 inclusive agreed to. 

Preamble agreed to. 

Bill No. 2 reported. 

OLSRii OF THE HOUSE; Third Order, House in 

Committee on Bill No. 19, ";ji ..ct respecting St. Patrick's 

Home of Ottavv'a". 

Sections 1 to 9 inclusive agreed to. 

Preamble agreed to. 
Bill No. 19 reported. 




CLERK OF THE HOUSL : Fourth Order, House in 
Comciittee on Bill No. 28, ";ji Act respecting the 
Canadian National Exhibition Association". 

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to. 

Preamble agreed to. 

Bill No. 28 reported, 


CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fifth Order, House in 
Committee on Bill No. 31, "^In Act respecting Credit 
Foncier Frc.nco-Canadien". 

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to. 

Preamble agreed to. 

Bill No. 31 reported, 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Chairman, I move the Committee rise and report certain 

Motion agreed to. 

The House resumes. 

Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 

IVIR. A. W. DOim^R (Dufferin-Simcoe) : Mr. 
Speaker, the Committee of the V/hole House begs to 
report five Bills without amendment, and moves the 
adoption of the report. 

Motion agreed to. 


HON. LESLIE M. l''RGST (Prime Minister): On 
Monday, Mr. SjEaker, there are some Government Orders, 
with which we will dcal^and I v.'ould like to go ahead with 
the Debate on the Address in reply to the Speech from 
the Throne. I think the hon. member for 

V/elland (Mr. Morningstar) is on the list, and there may 
be some others. 

On Tuesday, I would like to complete the Debate 
on the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne 
excexjt for the hon. Leader of the Opposition (lir. Oliver) 
vi7ho gets a second"crack"at the Government. Perhaps 
at that time, he may withdraw his amendment and 
we m-ay have harmony. In any event, I would like to have 
a vote on the Speech from the Throne on \7ednesday. 

lir. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the 
Pious e. 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 3:10 of the clock, p.m. 

3xtBt BtBBXm 

of 1I|^ 
of tl|^ 

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq. 

Volume XVIII 

Monday, March 17, 1952. 

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker. 

Chief Hansard Reporter 

Parliament Buildings 





of the 

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq. 

Hon. (Rev.) M, 0, Davies, Speaker, 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 17th, 1952. 

The House having met, 

3 o'clock p.m. 


MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Presenting Reports by Committees. 


Introduction of Bills. 

Orders of the day, 

m. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr, Speaker, 
before the Orders of the Day, I would like to address 


a question to the Hon. Provincial-Secretary (Mr, 
Welsh). I would like to ask him whether it would 
not be correct for the Province to refuse to give any- 
printing to printing firms which are on strike, and 
before whose establishments there are picket lines. 
I have in mind especially the Noble Scott firm, which 
does quite a bit of printing for the Legislature, 
which firm, I understand, prints the Q-rders of the 
Day and other parliamentary items from day to day, 

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the bon. 
Provincial Secretary (Mr. '''Jelsh) whether in view of 
the action of the City of Toronto which under the 
circumstances decided not to be a "strike-breaker", 
but to take their printing temporarily from a struck 
firm and give it to a union shop until after the 
strike has been settled, tliat we should not follow suit, 
and adopt the same policy, and I would like to ask 
whether the Government intends to take such action, 

HON. ARTHUR \'ELSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr, 
Speaker, with reference to the firm to which the hon. 
member (Mr. Salsberg) has referred; the Noble Scott 
people have two contracts with the Ontario Government; 
one is for the printing of the Ontario Gazette, and 
the other for the printing of the legislative papers. 


The printing plant is not on strike; it is the book- 
binders that are on strike, and that does not affect 
either of the contracts we have with Noble Scott. 
Neither of these contracts has anything to do with 
bookbinding at all; it is simply the printing of the 
Orders of the Day, and other legislative papers, and 
the Ontario Gazette. I do not see why, if one part of 
the plant is operating, and is not on strike, the 
Government should make any change in r egard to these 

ISR. SaLSBERG: There is a picket line. 

im. SPEAKER: Order, 

im. A. KELSO ROBERTS (St. Patrick): Mr, 
Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I want to rise 
to draw the attention of the House to what is the 
most important day in our calendar year, the 17th of 

There are in this House some hon. members 
with a great deal of Irish blood. The hon. member 
for I'iddlesex North (Mr. Patrick) claims lOO^o Irish 
blood flowing in his veins, as does the hon. member 
for Renfew South (Mr. Dempsey) and the hon. member 
for Cochrane North (Mr. Kelly), 

There are other hon. members of the Legis- 




lature with lesser quantities of that very distinguished 
blood, and then there are some hon. nenbers, like the 
Hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr, Scott), who would 
like to have Irish blood in their veins. 

Last year, when I was away for a short time, 
not necessarily an unavoidable absence, but absent 
from this Legislature, I think the hon. member for 
Hamilton Centre, now so well represented by my hon. 
friend opposite, stated there were no Irishmen on 
the Government side of the House, and made some refer- 
ence to myself being here in 1945. 

Mr. Speaker, I am back again. My 
grandfather Kelso, on my mother's side, came to this 
country from Ireland at the age of 17. As he died 
about eight and one-half years before I was born — 
and, incidentally, he died on the 17th of Iilarch — 
I do not suppose I can claim to have absorbed very 
much of his Irish, but I am told that he absorbed a 
good deal of it himself during his lifetime. 

Representing as I do this fine riding of St, 
Patrick in this Legislature, I would like to refer 
to the little memento which is on the desks of all 
hon. members, and in the possession, I hope, of every- 
one of those associated in the Legislative Assembly work 


at this time. Also, if the air service has not fallen 
down, there should be, through the courtesy of their 
respective Speakers, these mementoes on the desks in 
the Dail Erin, and in the Parliament of Northern 

At a time vrhen there are so many changes, and 
suggestions for changes, it occurred to me that here 
was a brand new opportunity to produce a new emblem > A 

maple sugar shamrock. It has a very euphonious sound, 

and is also easily digestible, as such emblems should 

Mr. Speaker, in regard to the use of the 

words so commonly associated with Ireland, "shillalah" 
and "shamrock", I was rather surprised, in searching 

Irish literature, to find there vas such a dearth of 
the use of those words in the current literature, and 
so barren was my own search, that I wrote to a friend 

in Ireland, and he replied a few days ago saying that 
was one of the difficulties of the writers and 
historians from Ireland. Nevertheless, he assured 
me that "shillalah" is a cudgel formed from, oak or 
blackthorn, I felt very much like taking the Legis- 
lature on single-handed to-day when I found I had two 



such weapons. One of these is, I am told, 175 years 
old, a shillalah, loaned to me for the moment by one of 
the deans of the Press Gallery, Mr. Roy Greenaway. 
This has come down through his wife's side of the 
family, through several generations. The other was 
from my very good constituent from St. George Street, 
"Joe I'cDonagh", and the design and handiwork indicates 
a great deal of care, as it has designed on it the 
shamrock, in several parts of the cudgei. 

"Shillalah" is named after a village in 
County ^'Jicklow. As regards the shamrock; I am told 
that the elder Pliny said that no serpe.nt would touch 
the shamrock plant, and perhaps that accounts for the 
tradition v/hich has been associated with the shamrock, 
and attributed to St, Patrick for the past few centuries, 

In extending felicitations, I would not wish to 
do so without mentioning particularly the head of our 
Hansard reporters, who is an Irishman if there ever 
was one, and so I say to each and all the hon. members 
present, and the members of the Parliamentary Staff, 
"Begorra, and the top o' the morning to you all", 

MR- A. G. FROST (Bracondale) : Mr, Speaker, 
I crave the privilege of concurring in what the hon. 
member for St, Patrick (Mr. Roberts) has said. 


Having a little Irish blood in me, I think 
it would be well to have the hon. members display the 
shamrock, and so I brought some for each hon. member, 
and I trust he will wear it, and be proud to wear it, 

HON. CHARLES DALEY (Minister of Labour): Mr. 
Speaker, I learned recently why the Irishmen wear the 
shamrock. Being an Irishman myself, I can tell this. 
According to the narrative, years ago Ireland was over- 
run with snakes, and some bright soul had the idea 
they would import some huge birds from Africa to get 
rid of the snakes. That worked very successfully. Then 
they found the birds were a worso pest than the snakes 
had been, so someone having another bright idea, they 
decided to import some monkeys to get rid of the birds, 
as the monkeys would eat the birds' eggs, and so get 
rid of them. That also worked well, but then the 
monkeys became pests. So they discussed whether to 
import something else to get rid of the monkeys, but .• 
one old Irishman said, "Let us have a shoot, and shoot 
them all." Which they did. At the end of the fourth 
day they found they had shot 47 monkeys and $^ Irish- 
men, so they made the Irish wear the shamrock, so they 
would know who they were. 





MR. P. FANLEY (Stormont): Mr. Speaker, I 
believe I am the only pure Irishman on the Opposition 
side of the House. I want to thank the hon. member 
for Bracondale (Mr. Frost) for the shamrock he placed 
on my desk to-day. I am very happy to see so many of 
the hon, members wearing the shamrock this afternoon. 
It goes to show him they are not Irish, but they would 
like to be. It does please all Irishmen to see so 
many of you wearing the shamrock. 

I also want to thank the hon. member for 
St. Patrick (Mr. Roberts) for the fine box of candy, 
which will be enjoyed, I am sure, by every hon. member 


I am reminded of a little story at this time. 

Pat had two young college boys out on the lake, and 
was doing all the rowing, and the first student said, 
"Did you ever take up chemistry?" and Pat said, "Sure, 
I did not have the time to take up chemistry." The 
student replied, "Then you have missed twenty-five 
years of your life." 

The other student said, "Pat, did you ever 
take up physics", and Pat said, "Sure, what would I 
want to be doing with physics; I have had no time to 


take up physics in my busy life". 

Shortly after that, as they were rowing along, 
a storm came up, and over-turned their boat, and the 
two students fell into the water and immediately called 
for help, Pat looked at them and he said, "Can you 
lads swim?" and they both replied, "No, help us", and 
Pat turned away, and he said, "Sure, here is where 
you two young smart fellows are going to miss all of 
your lives." 

I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that all of the hon. 
members of this House will not want to miss the best 
part of their lives. 

HON. L. ¥. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr, 
Speaker, I do not know whether this is the place for 
one who is not Irish, but all Scottish, to "barge 
in" at all, I do so with some hesitation, but 
on this important occasion, the "17th of Ireland", I 

have great pleasure in extending to the Irish hon, 
members of the House, who are here in countless num- 
bers, so it seems, the best wishes of our people, as 
we did on the day of your patron saint, the 29th of 
February, preceding the first day of March, 

The 17th of March, in my own family, has been 


I -• 

17th CI 

day was always observed in oar houg«*hold, althco^ 27 
father was a Scotszac. I was broo^it up ir th-s tTli^?, 

of course, that 3z. Patrick was not an IrisfasBn, but 
was a Scotcfasan. 1 would just like to realnd iqr 
Ii-lsh brethren that is the :=5t. ~r^- rr^a- r i-e 
to Irelaisd fron ocotlar^. 

I .. 1 1 not want to have a Tote of oonfidence 

taken on that, a 


Opposition (Mir. -__. ^r) to present a ii;m= of BOtion, 
r e :? 7 - : ^ the Premie r :: r:.i 5^: :. i: rick 

was a Scotsaan, and we n^t be defeated <» that, 
despite the mKtber of hon. r£~cers we have around us. 

(Take "B* follows) 


Sir, I may say that perhaps I have 
this right to say something: in addition to the 
fact that the 17th of March was a great day in our 
household in old Orillla, I may say, sir, that my 
wife is Irish -- pure Irish, if there is such a 
thing, and I know something about the Irish people. 
I have grown up with a family of which my brother and 
myself became members, the Carew family, who 
have a great and abiding affection for the Irish 
people . 

I may say that my wife's father came from 
the south of Ireland and her mother's people came 
from the north of Ireland, so that we have not only 
northern Ireland but we have old Cork in this picture, 

With all of those things and coming from my 
riding where we have people from the north and people 
from the south -- in some cases we have them still 
on the farms and following the concession lines 
where they settled in the days of the Robinson 
immigration of over a "century ago -- after almost a 
lifetime of being with the Irish people I can say 
something about their affection, something about 
their loyalty, their fighting loyalty to their 
friends, something about their enthusiasm which 
has never dampened even in dark days and I can say 
something about what old Ontario owes to the Irish 
for their contribution to this Province. 

Every riding, almost every community, has 
among its first settlers people from the north and 


south oi" Ireland^ and in all, sir^, they have added 
greatly to our country, and they have made their 
contribution to what the hon. member for B.ell- . 
woods (Mr. Yaremko) referred to the other day as 
'the Canadian Mosaic.'' From these various streams, 
have come into our life people from all parts of the 
worldj but as far as we are concerned particularly 
from the British Isles, we indeed have great tra- 
ditions and a great people. 

I want to congratulate today the 
Irish on their great day and on their patron saint 
who came from Scotland. 

MR. P. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Speaker, I did not feel particularly called 
upon to say anything on this occasion because, not 
being an Irishman nor close to being an Irishman, I 
thought it was presumptuous on my part to praise the 
Irish race as, in my years of life, Mr. Speaker, 
I have come to the conclusion that if there is one 
race that does not need to be praised by outsiders, 
it is the Irish race. They have demonstrated down 
through the years their particular ability to dwell 
on their own qualifications. So that words of mine 
would be just superfluous and would not be necessary 
at all. 

I did want to say to the hon. Prime liinister (Mr, 
Frost) that I do not know whether Saint Patrick was 
born in Ireland or Scotland but if he is going to 
present us with a resolution upon which the fate of 



the Government might hang^ surely he could get one 
with much more substance and upon which the hon. 
members could really decide. I want to defeat the 
Government very badly^ but I do want an issue with 
more substance than this one. 

I did want to say, Mr. Speaker^ that my 
hon. friend has talked about Irishmen and talked about 
the background The Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) is 
not an Irishman but something happened on the 17th of 
March that gives him a right to say he has a con- 
nection somewhat with the Irish race. in the 
Opposition today we have a member who was born in 
Ireland and I doubt very much if there is another 
hon. member in the House who can say that. 

MR. D. M. KERR (Dovercourt ) : Oh, yes, there 

MR. OLIVER: As I was going to say, the hon. 
member for Brantford (Mr. Gordon) was born in 
Ireland but, fortunately or unfortunately, he is not 
an Irishman; he is a Scotsman. That is a record which 
even the hon, member (Mr. Kerr) cannot equal, 

MR. D. M. KERR (Dovercourt): Mr. Speaker, 
as an Irishman born in Ireland, I take issue with the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost). 

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Did I not 
you that was the way to defeat the Government? 

MR. KERR: I can assure you that whether 
Saint Patrick was born in Ireland or born elsewhere 
he did a good job, and I might remind those who come 


from another part that Itwas Saint Colombo who 
went from Ireland over there to do some of their 

On this happy occasion of remembering Ireland 
and the things that Ireland stands for, including 
pugilistic attitudes, we on this side of the House 
will support the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) if he 
brings in such a resolution. 

MR. G. T. GORDON (Brantford) : Mr. Speaker, 
I think this has ^one about far enough, I was 
born in Dublin , Ireland, but my father was 
Scottish, so I am quite at home when we celebrate 
St. Andrew's Day, and my mother was English so I 
am quite at home when we celebrate St. George's 
Day. I was back to my birthplace two years ago, 
in Dublin, and I had the opportunity of having a 
half -hour interview with Mr. De Valera and Mr. 
Costello. While Mr. De Valera has not visited 
Canada, he asked me at the first opportunity I had 
to bring greetings from him, because he said that 
the Canadians had been among his best friends. 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

MR. W. E. BRANDON (York West) moves third 
reading of Bill No. 1, intituled "An Act respecting 
the Town of New Toronto." 

Motion agreed to: third reading of the Bill. 
IvIR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be Intituled as in the motion. 




MR. W. MURDOCH (Essex South), in the absence 

of Mr. Cathcart, moves third reading of Bill No. 2, 

intituled "An Act respecting the City of Sarnia 

Separate School Board.'' 

Motion agreed to: third reading of the Bill. 
MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 

pass and be intituled as in the motion. 

MR. W. MURDOCH (Essex South), in the absence 

of Mr. Morrow, moves third reading of Bill No. 19^ 

intituled "An Act respecting St. Patrick's Home of 

Ottawa. " 

Motion agreed to: third reading of the Bill. 
MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 

pass and be intituled as in the motion. 


MR. A. G. FROST (Bracondale) moves third 
reading of Bill No. 28, intituled "An Act respecting 
the Canadian National Exhibition Association." 

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill. 

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 

MR. A. K. ROBERTS (St. Patrick) moves third 
reading of Bill No. 31, Intituled "An Act respecting 
Credit Fonder Franco-Canadien . " 


Motion agreed to: third reading of the Bill 
I^IR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the motion. 


HON. D. PORTER (Attorney General) moves 
third reading of Bill No. 73, intituled "An Act 
to provide for the making of Inquiries in connec- 
tion with Hospitals, Sanatoria, Charitable 
Institutions and other Organizations." 

Motion agreed to: third reading of the Bill 
MR. SPEAKER: Resolved that the Bill do now 
pass and be intituled as in the Motion. 
HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I 
beg to inform you that His Honour the Lieutenant- 
Governor is waiting to give assent to certain 
Bills and I would ask your permission to leave the 
Chamber in order to escort His Honour here. 

The Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor of 
the Province entered the Chamber of the Legislative 
Assembly and being seated upon the Throne. 

MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour: 
The Legislative Assembly of the Province 
has at its present Sittings thereof passed several 
Bills to which, in the name and on behalf of the 
said Legislative Assembly, I respectfully request 
Your Honour's Assent. 


CLERK ASSIST.^^IT: "The following are the 
Titles of the Bills to v^iich Your Honour's Assent is 
prayed : 

Bill No. !_, An Act respecting the Town 
of New Toronto. 

Bill No. 2, An Act respecting the City of 
Sarnia Separate School Board. 

Bill Nc . 19, An Act respecting St. Patrick's 
Home of Ottawa. 

Bill No. 28, An Act respecting the Canadian 
National Exhibition Association. 

Bill No. 31, An Act respecting Credit 
Poncier Franco-Canadian. 

Bill No. 73, an Act to provide for the 
making of Inquiries in connection with Hospitals, 
Sanatoria, Charitable Institutions and other 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: In Her Majesty's name, 
the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor of the 
Province doth assent to these Bills. 

The Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor 
was then pleased to retire. 

(Take "C " follows) 


HON. L. r.i. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. 
Speaker, may I ask you to revert to Orders of the Day. 

IZR. SPE.JCER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. D;j^A PORTER (Attorney-General): Mr. 
Speaker, I wish to report to the House, inasmuch as 
Bill No. 73 has been assented to. His Honour has been 
asked to approve an Order-in-Council appointing Mr. 
Gordon Fraser, Q,.C., of V/indsor, to act as Commissioner 
vinder this Statute to investigate the affairs of the 
East V/indsor Hospital Association. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixteenth Order, 
resuming t>'^ adjourned debate on the amendment to the 
amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the 
Speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at 
the opening of the Session. 

Hm. i^. R. 'HERBERT (Temiskaming) : Mr. 
Speaker, it is indeed a great honour for me to 
represent tap District of Temiskaming. It is the first 
time for nearly twenty years that our District has a 
member on txie Government side. 

I may say at this time that it was in no small 
part the 3ood Govornment we have had that has made this 





possible. We in the north have had the same considera- 
tion as all other parts of this great province, 

I would like to talk first about the people 
in our District. They are of the pioneer type, rugged 
and strong in their beliefs. They are patriotic and are 
of many races. They corae from the backwoods, the farms 
and the mines, foreigners yesterday - - Canadians to-day. 
People who were ready to turn their backs on regulations 
and control and seek a new frontier. 

These people have had some trying tines during 
the war years, Y/e have contributed man-power eq_ual to 
any area and perhaps more than most, A nuraber of regi- 
ments in the last v;ar from the great centres of the south 
came north to recruit many of their men. In addition 
we mobilized a complete infantry Regiment - some 1000 men 
in about ten days, in 1940. i7e are justly proud of this 
Regiment from the north country who to-day have many 
battle honours. They fought through the complete war 
with the 4th Armoured Division, 

Many others served with distinction in our 
Air Force, the Navy, Marine and other wartime services. 
Many are to-day in Korea and Europe, 

These v/ar years vttll be remembered by the 
supreme sacrifice paid by great nui'iibers of our volunteers, 
the cream of our young people. 


The people at home strugfled to keep their feet 
firmly planted in a District whioh they realized had a 
great future. We had no war industries or other means 
of full emp^-oyment as our mines could scarcely operate 
due to shortages of man-power and equipment. 

Our District is a large one, nearly five 
thousand square miles and having some 150 townships. 
It is a distance of some 200 miles from north to south 
and only a somewhat lesser distance from east to west. 

In the north v/e have our gold mining areas -- 
around the Town of Larder Lake and Matachewan, These 
towns have remained at a constant level due to present 
prices of gold. 

Coming south we have in the Boston Creek area, 
new finds of base metals. In Elk Lake area, pitchblende, 
in association with silver and cobalt, was discovered late 
last fall and exploration v/ill proceed early this spring. 

In Matachewan a new find of lead and one of 
copper are now past the exploration stage and are fast 
becoming producers. 

One of our largest lakes in the District, Lake 
Temiskaming is now the attention of mining people and 
already one vein has been proven for some length. Con- 
ditions similar to other cobalt and silver areas are to 
be found and this opens up ant entirely new potential, 


one that might become as great as the Cobalt Camp. 

Our Gowganda silver district has now three 
nines actively engaged in silver and cobalt mining and 
Qany other properties have a new lease on life. 

Our Cobalt mining area and the tovm of Cobalt 
have been famous throughout the vi^orld for many years. The 
fiftieth anniversary of the town will be held in 1953. 
Mining has gone on continuously during this time. Some 
460,000,000 oz. of silver and 100,000,000 lbs. of cobalt 
metal have' been produced. 

To-day we have seven companies now producing 
cobalt and silver ores and many others in the development 

The metal cobalt produced in this Camp has 
become most previous to the great industrial centres of 
the world. In recent years, many uses have been found 
for it. To-day every jet engine made contains over 100 
lbs, of cobalt. It is used for armour piercing shells 
and plating. It is used in magnets to the extent of 
some 25 percent of the metal used. The magnets are 
most powerful in relation to size. In the form of 
a radioactive bomb, it is used for treatment of cancer. 
It is used medically for surgical bone screws and plates. 
Only a few years ago it had little value. 

In the Temagarfli area recent exploration has 
turned up large deposits of base metals. 


Mining in our District ayjpears to be well on 
the v/ay to new horizons. The surface has only been 

Now let me turn to our farming area in a great 
clay belt that extends from the Town of Nov; Liskeard north 
to the Towns of Earlton, Tnornloe, En:lehart and east 
to Belle Vallee, Judge, and west to Elk Lake and beyond. 
To-day v/e can produce crops eq.ual to any in the province. 
Our herds of pure bred stock are considered to be some 
of the best in the country. 

This Government and particularly the Depart- 
ment of Agriculture under the capable leadership of the 
Minister the hon, Tom Kennedy has done more in the past 
several administrations to assist the farmers than was 
ever known before. Our farmers appreciate this con- 

Our great forest areas around Latchford, G-oward, 
Temagami, Gowganda and Matachewan Districts are now 
employing thousands of v/orkmen. To-day, they have 
working hours and conditions that have been greatly 
improved in recent years by new legislation. The 
timber areas are nov/ being carefully studied to get 
the best yields and to conserve these resources for 
years to come. The Minister of Lc.rds and Forests (Mr. 
Scott) and his staff are to be congratulated 


for the efficient manner in v^'hich they have taken hold 
of these problems. We do v/ant this big industry to have 
a great potential for the future so that nev/ generations 
may have the same benefits as we have to-day. 

Temagami and its great tourist areas that 
extend for many hundreds of railes into virgin country 
provides the king of s^jort in fishing and hunting for all 
concerned. Our present regulations provide ample catches 
and if abided by will insure this pleasure for many, 
manj'' years. I might mention here that many other lake 
areas could become summer residential areas if present 
legislation would open these up for this purpose. I am 
aware of laws betv/een various departments that are 
entirely contradictory to one another. By this I mean 
between the Department of Lands and Forests and the 
Department of Mines. I also believe that many other 
lakes should be netted to take out the present fish and 
re -stocked with game fish, 

V/ith such a large district we have many 
thousands of miles of roads. Our main roads are a 
pleasure to drive on. Many of our smaller roads are 
now being improved. We do need more development roads 
to open up mining and timbering areas and I know that 
the Department under the hon. Minister George Doucett 
have requests now before them. They have assured me that 
these will be given early attention. The roads into our 


farming districts are kept fairly well but it is 
becoming an ever increasing burden to the Townships to 
finance their portion of the upkeep. I do know that 
this has been considered in great detail but with our 
large fa^ms and scarcity of population, it is a financial 

I might speak now about our Development Rail- 
road, the Ontario Northland , that travels through this 
District. It has certainly been of great benefit to us 
and a railroad that is, I am sure, one of the most 
efficiently operated on the continent. One that has the 
most modern of eq.uipment and one that does provide the 
services expected. Our Town of Englehart is a railroad 
town and a very model town it is. It is the opinion of 
a number of people that vie do pay too great an amount 
for this railway service. As an illustration, I am told 
that to ship an article from Toronto to North Bay would 
cost the same as from, say, North Bay to Cobalt, This 
in turn brings up our cost of living in this District. 
All one needs to do is to read of prices in a North Bay 
paper and compare them with costs in our towns, I do 
feel that this railroad has now more than paid for its 
programs and that some reduction In rates should be 
passed along to the people in the District. We are 
unable to encoura£.e many industrial concerns here 


because our rates would not permit competitive prices in 
other parts of the province. I may say that the Railway 
Commission are to be complimented on the manner in which 
they have managed this operation. 

In the Throne Speech mention was made of new 
legislation to aid mining municipalities. This is required 
by a number of towns in our District — Cobalt, Matachewan, 
North Cobalt, Haileybury and Larder Lake. These towns 
provide services to miners v^rorking in other areas and 
have no means of taxing the mines concerned, or having 
any of the mines' profits diverted to them. I am sure 
this legislation will come forward at an early date and 
I do want to thank the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), the 
hon. Minister of IJines (Mr. Gemmell) and the hon. Minister 
of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar), for the prompt manner 
in which they are dealing with this question. 

Temiskaming is a big land breeding red-blooded 
people who v/ant the chance to work out their own destiny. 
All we ask is an even break for ourselves and the north 

V/e are proud to be Canadians -- living in this 
great province and ha\Fing our homes in the great northland. 

MR. J". P. JOHNSTONE (Bruce): Mr. Speaker, in 
rising to take part in the debate on the Speech from 
the Throne, I would like to pay my respects to Mr. Speaker 




for the high position he holds, and for the efficient 
way In which he discharges his duties. I would also -like 
to congratulate the hon. Prime Minister (Ivlr. Frost) 
on his success on November 22nd last year, I have 
listened to so many speakers, some twenty of them and 
they were very good, but I am a farmer, fir. Speaker, 
and I am proud of it, and I speak in the farmers' 
language. I cannot use of the large words some other 
hon. members do, but I still am going to say what I 
have to say, I am going to be very brief. I am 
going to say a few words about my own riding because, 
after the hon, members have spoken, there is nothing 
left to talk about. 

I would like to say a few Vvrords regarding 
the St. Lawrence Seaway. This is a v/onderful opportunity 
for advancement in many ways for our province and our 
country. The Government m.ust be congratulated for its 
foresight and initiative in undertaking such a large 
project, not knowing for certain if our good neighbours 
to the south are coming in with us or not. 

Then a word about reform institutions. The 
hon. Minister of Reform Institutions (Mr. Foote) 
should be congratulated on the manner in which he is 
handling his Department, especially in connection with 
the younger inmates who are being taught trades, so 


that on their release they v/ill be in a better position 
to take their place with others, and v/ill become good 

Then, in connection with conservation, the 
hon. Minister (Mr, Scott), under v/hose Jurisdiction falls 
this important matter, is to be congratulated for the 
able manner in which he has controlled the natural 
resources of our forests so that they v/ill never be 
depleted. He is to be congratulated on the young trees 
which are planted each year, which will insure e supply 
of timber in the je ars to come. 

(Take "D" follows) 


Mr, Speaker, I would like at this time to 
say a word of two about our hospitals. The Hon, 
Minister of Health (Mr, Phillips) is to be congratu- 
lated for the assistance he has given in the erection 
of many new hospitals throughout the Province, and 
for the numerous additions to existing hospitals, 
made possible by large grants. These hospitals are 
doing wonderful work in alleviating the suffering, 
and taking care of the ill, and the grants given by 
the Provincial Government, have relieved the communi- 
ties of quite a burden. 

In my own riding, we have three new hospitals 
built in recent years, which could not have been 
erected without the assistance from the Provincial 
Government, We also have two older hospitals in my 
riding, which: are now contemplating alterations and 
additions, and they are looking forward to receiving 
substantial grants. I will repeat "substantial grants", 
because they are required for the enlarging and bringing 
up-to-date of our hospitals and equipment. 

Now, just a word about education. The Hon. 
Minister of Education (Mr. Dunlop) deserves great 
credit for advancing education in our province. 


Additional subjects are being taught in our small 
rural schools, which formerly were taught only in 
city schools, and this enables the children from the 
rural communities to obtain the same educatioh as 
those living in the cities, and yet permits them to 
remain at home, 

I am very glad to be able to tell the hon, 
members that we have some large district schools in 
our area which are a credit to the communities, and 
I would say also a credit to the Provincial Government. 

A word now about hydro,, Speaker, The 
hydro made great strides in its development for 
industry in my riding, particularly for the rural 
people, and my riding is largely rural. It has 
alleviated the burden of much hard work on the farmers, 
particularly those engaged in raising dairy cattle, 
where modern milking equipment is a necessity, in 
order to produce a high standard of milk, which is 
necessary to safeguard the health of the people in 
our Province, 

Mr, Speaker, I may be a little out of order 
in what I am saying, but really I would feel more at 
home at an auction sale. Frankly, I am a wee bit 
nervous, and I ask to be excused. 


I would like to make some reference to our 
tourist business. The Hon. Minister of Travel and 
Publicity (Mr. Cecile) has done a wonderful job. The 
riding which I represent hss approximately 200 miles 
of shoreline, bordering on Lake Huron and Georgian 
Bay, a great portion of which still remains in its 
natural state. A considerable section of the land 
along the shore has been developed in the last few 
years, which is evidence that more and more tourists 
are coming to the Bruce Peninsula each year. It is 
a spot of beauty, and includes inland lakes and rivers, 
and forests largely in their natural state. In addi- 
tion, we have excellent hunting grounds for deer and 
bear and small game, and good fishing for bass, lake 
trout, speckled trout, or, in fact, whatever your hooks 
will catch. 

In the last two years we have opened up a new 
highway which will permit the buiMing of perhaps 
2,000 cottages. In fact, 200 or more are built at 
the present time. 

A few words now regarding highv;ays . The 
Hon. Minister of Highvrays (Mr. Doucett) unfortunately 
at this time is not able to be in the House and he has 


my sympathy, and I wish him a speedy recovery. During 
his term of office, he has played a great part in the 
deve;).opment of this Province, in the way of building 
main highways, which are really the arteries of this 
Province, In regard to the riding I represent, may 
I say that we feel we should have some work done on 
the existing highways, as we have had very little done 
in the past few years. Also, some work is badly 
needed to develop roads which would open up areas 
for the tourists. The northern part of ijruce County 
depends largely on the tourist trade and summer 
business for its livelihood, and there is only one 
highway going up the centre of the Peninsula, connecting 
with the boat for Manitoulin Island, This is used by 
thousands of people, going each way, each year, and 
we feel it is extremely important that this road be 
built to accommodate heavy traffic. In addition, we 
have the Blue Water Highway from Kincardine north, 
which needs to be re-surfaced. 

To the Hon. Minister of Highways (Mr. Doucett) 

I would like to say that we thank him for everything 
he has done for us in Bruce Riding, in the past. We 
would greatly appreciate it, if he could see his way 


clear to do some construction work and re-surfacing 
on our highways this year. 

Now, Just a word about game and fish. The 
Hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) deserves a great deal of 
credit for the helpful manner in which he has super- 
vised the re-stocking of our lakes and streams, which 
ensures good fishing for both the tourists and the 
general public. I think it would be of benefit if we 
could have more game wardens, especially in the 

northern part, to assist in enforcing the law. In my 
riding we have organizations such as the South Bruce 
Game and Fish Association, and others, which are doing 
a wonderful job in regard to supervising the re- 
stocking of our various streams. They have a great 
influence on the younger sportsmen, in seeing that 
they keep within the fish and game laws. May I say 
more power to these organizations, which "are of great 
benefit, not only to us, but to any community, 

Mr. Speaker, when speaking in regara to 
hydro, there was one thing I omitted to mention, as 
for the moment I had forgotten about it, and so, with 
your permission, I will go back a little. In our 

riding, hydro has done a wonderful job for us, 

(Take "E" follows) 


It has been extended to many, many people and 
has helped them out wonderfully. I just wanted to 
explain to you In one way -- a little story, not a 
bad story although I do not think the hon. Minister 
(Mr. Challies) will take credit for It. I hope not. 

I listened to the hen. member for 
Wellington North (Mr. Root) speaking about the 
"twinkle, twinkle lights" and little doors outside -- 
the welcome, and It made me think of possibly two 
years ago -- it would be two and a half years ago, 
a man came to me one day and said --well, I 
won't say exactly what he said -- he said: "Listen, 
what is the matter, I can't get hydro?" I said, 
"Anything wrong?" "Well," he said, "I can't get 
hydro. I have been asking for it but I have not 
got It." I said, "When did you put your appli- 
cation in?" "Oh," he said, "Just a little while 
ago -- three or four months ago." "Well," I said, 
"that is wrong. Ycu should have asked for it 
before that and you should have sent in a form. 
How do you expect to get the hydro that soon?" 
Now, this man was not a man who would support 
young J. P., so I went around and looked it over 
and I found out that they were going to run it in 
there very shortly -- it was tying in with another 
line -- so I went back and I told him he would get 
the hydro. He still did not believe me. He had 
a couple of neighbours there and I got quite a"going 


Just before election I dropped into this 
place — that v/as about a year and a half after — 
and they had no children before at all - no family. 
So I dropped into the home and I saw them there and 
I went into the house and the lady was there. I 
said: "You did not have any children last time." 
She replied: "No, but, J. P., we have got the hydro 
now; things have changed over. Everything is all for 
the better." "V/ell," I said, "how are you going to 
raise the'kids'?" She said, "V/ell, J. P., don't tell 
Pop, but I am going to raise them to be good 
Conservatives, like you." 

Mr. Speaker, just a few words on agriculture. 
As I said before, I am a farmer, probably will always 
be a farmer. It is just the same as any hon. member 
is proud of his profession. 7/e need all the 
different professions, and one cannot get along very 
well without the other. 

Mr. Speaker, in regard to agriculture, the 
hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) deserves great credit for 
the advancement in agriculture that has come into 
effect in this province. I would like to speak a few 
minutes on agriculture pertaining to Bruce County. I 
said before I have to speak of my county because there 
is nothing else left; everybody has gone over it so 
often. But, Bruce County is one of the fev/ major 
beef-producing counties and has been consistently 
the highest cream-producing coimty in the province. 
Hog production 

(Page E-3 follows.) 


remains fairly cmstant around 120,000 a year. 
Dairy cattle are gaining in popularity and since 
1951 milk has been shipped from Walkerton and dis- 
trict to the whole-milk market in Toronto. 

Although large acreage of malting barley 
and flax was grown in 1951, livestock products 
remain our largest industry. Indications are that 
in spite of labour shortages agricultural production 
will be increased. Increased Interest is evident 
in improved hay and pasture, grass silage and soil 
improvement. Farm organization is well developed 
from the standpoint of achievement as well as the 
number of well-supported farm organizations. I 
would like to mention here that the Federation of 
Agriculture is steadily growing stronger and they 
have accomplished much in furthering the Interests 
of the farmer. » 

I hope that legislation will be forthcoming 
whereby junior farmers can obtain loans to assist 
them in starting farming,, which I think is very 
essential as there are far too many farms vacant. 

I would like to say a few words here, and 
just get away from my brief. In our riding we 
have a lot of farmers who would like their families 
to remain in Bruce County. They are the finest 
farms in the country for raising beef and all 
of those farms should have young people on them 
raising families . I think we should have them • 


If we can get legislation through to that effect, 
to help the young boys, it will be all right because 
today a young man cannot start farming unless his 
dad or rich uncle gives him a lift. 

At this time may I suggest, Mr. Speaker -- 
I am Just suggesting it -- that the Milk Control 
Board be given more power. This is in reference 
to the protection of licensed distributors and their 
producers in the smaller communities. 

Mr. Speaker in conclusion I wish to 
express my appreciation for the co-operation and 
the assistance given to me by the hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost), the hon Cabinet Ministers and other 
Government officials in the past year. 

I thank you. 


MR, E. P. MORNIlTOSr/Jl ('Telland): Mr. 
Speaker, and hon. members, firstly I must say it is 
a privilege and an honour to represent the great 
riding of V/elland County. I might say to you, Mr. 
Speaker, I was quite flattered when I first came into 
this Legislature. As you know, Mr. Speaker, I am a 
new man here — one of your new members — and on the 
first few days that I happened to be here in the 
Legislature, I was called >hon. Leader of the 
Opposition (Mr. Oliver). I was quite flai^tered, Mr. 
Speaker, and honoured — probably we should be labelled 
in some way; maybe there is a resemblance there — 
probably in the avoirdupois field. 

Mr. Speaker, I only hope that I can 
contribute something not only to my own riding but 
to the Province of Ontario as well. As you know, I 
have had quite a few years of municipal experience in 
Welland, in my good township of Crowland, and, during 
those years, I have had the pleasure of meeting most 
of the hon. Cabinet Ministers in Toronto, and at this 
time, I would like to express my sympathy to the hon. 
Minister of Highways (Mr. Douoett) for the accident 
which he had. 

I might say that during my eighteen years* 
municipal experience, he is the only Minister of 
Highways who ever came around to see us each and 
every year, just to see how our money was being spent 
back in our own counties. So, it was evident 


that he had a great deal of interest not only In 
our county roads and provincial highways but also 
in our municipal roads. And that also applies to 
the other hon. Ministers of the different Eepartments, 

I might mention the hon. Minister of 
Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar). I have had a 
great deal to do with his Department, and - 
have always been received with courtesy, and I 
might say that on different occasions in attending 
the various conventions -- the Municipal and Rural 
Municipalities and the Good Roads Conver.'cion -- 
I had the pleasure of meeting the different hen. Cabinet 
Ministers and at this time I would sr.y that I do 
think the triumph in the November 22nd election was 
due to the good leadership of our hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Frost). 

I happened to be at various conventions when 
he addressed the different gatherings^ and each and 
every time he was very, very impressive in his re- 
marks when he said that we did not know everything, 
and to the different representatives of the dif- 
ferent municipalities, if they had any problem, any 
misunderstanding or needed any advice, his door was 
always open and he would be very glad to receive 
them. 'E'hat is a great thing for the Prime 
Minister of the Province of Ontario to say, 

I might say also that it is very amusing 
when during our election campaign, Mr. Speaker, as 
most of the hon. members know, the leader of 


the C.O.F. Party said that our hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Frost) should fire the Minister of Labour (Mr. 
Daley) and that he did not know what he was doing. 
But, today in this House, it is very amusing to hear 
that same leader of the G.CF. Party (Mr. Jolliffe) 
commending our hon^ Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley), 
and commendations have come from both sides of the 
House upon the good work he is doing in settling 
these strikes. 

Mr. Speaker, I might also say at this time 
that in dealing with the Deputy Ministers of the 
different Departments, in my experience I have always 
been received with the greatest courtesy, and I want 
to commend them at this time and also the civil 
servants, while I have been here, for the way I have 
been received. 

V/e have different items, as you know, Mr. 
Speaker, that we must bring up each and every day 
concerning people in our own ridings, but really, I 
did not know what I was getting into or that I would 
get into so much trouble, when elected as a member of 
the Legislature here. I now know what I got into. 
But I must say that I have had the very, very best 
co-operation from each Department here, and I can only 
say that I do appreciate it very, very much. 

As you know, Mr. Speaker, I'ifelland riding, 
due to being an industrial centre of note, has a 
great number of skilled workers and is one of the 


most cosmopolitan centres In Canada. Besides 
Anglo-Saxon citizens of both Canadian and English 
birth, there is a large section of French-speaking 
Canadian workers. There is an extensive permanent 
population of Italian and Hungarian origin -- also 
Polish^ Croatlon, Ukrainian, Slovak and other 
nationalities, and I might say, Mr. Speaker, that 
most of these groups of different nationalities 
have their halls, where they can get together and 
discuss their problems, and that they do a great 
deal of good work not only in our own riding but in 
the Province of Ontario andpossibly in the Dominion 
of Canada. 

These different groups have their insur- 
ance policies like life Insurance policies and sick 
benefits and they receive our displaced persons 

who are entering Canada the Province 

of Ontario is getting most of them -- taking them 
in and showing them and teaching them our Canadian 
way of life, and I can only speak in the very, very 
highest terms of these different groups of people 
or nationalities which we have in our own riding, 

I might also mention some other items of 
note that we have in my riding. Right here, I 
think, is a chance, Mr. Speaker, to" toot our own 
horn". The Twin Flight Locks at Thorold are the 
largest in North America. It was said the other 
day that the V/elland Ship Canal had joined Lake 
Erie and Lake Ontario, and at Thorold at the north 


end of the Welland Ship Canal we do have the largest 
flight locks In North America. 

I might say also in my riding that the 
final battle of the war of I8l2-l8l^ was fought at 
Cooks Mills, and a monument has been erected there. 
That is in the municipality where I was born. I 
believe a museum to preserve the story of the rural 
people might be erected along the lines suggested 
by the hen. member for North Wellington (Mr. Root). 
After all, agriculture is the backbone of any success- 
ful economy. The first man was a farmer in the 
Garden of Eden and in all probability the last man 
will be one. 

I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that .. the 
place for that museum would be at Niagara Palls. As 
you know, we have a great number of tourists there 
and it would probably work in with our hydro develop- 
ment . 

Ivlr. Speaker, one o.f the largest 
drainage schemes Welland County has ever had is 
going on right now in the Township of Wainfleet. 
The work is being subsidized by both the Dominion 
and Provincial Governments. The drainage in the 
area was seriously affected by the feeder canal 
being cut off when the Welland Ship Canal was deepen- 
ed the last time by the Federal Government. There 
were thirty thousand acres seriously affected, and I 
might say that agricultural experts claim that five, 
thousand acres of this soil will be better than Mr. 


Hepburn's onion land ever was, when drainage Is 

Mr. Speaker, I do know that the people of 
Wainfleet, along with others ^ do appreciate the 
assistance from the Provincial Government because 
as you know, in recent years the subsidy on 
drainage schemes has been increased from 25 per 
cent to 33 1/3 per cent. Also, this subsidy is 
paid on engineering costs, where before it was not, 
I am sure the people not only of the Township of 
Walnfleet but of the Province of Ontario 
appreciate that move which the Government has 

(Take "F" follows) 


I would like to cor.uuend the hon. ivilnister of 
Agriculture {Mr. Kennedy) andhis Department for the 
assistance and leadership they have given the rural 
people through the agricultural representatives and 
other organizations in my riding. Our agricultural 
representative is'Mr. Joseph '.'/ilson who is giving 
a great deal of assistance to the Junior Farmers and 
other agricultural organizations. Farmers in my riding 
have brought honour to themselves as well as the province 
by winning prizes at the International V/orld's Fair 
at CIiicajTo for their timothy seed. V/e do appreciate 
the subsidy on lime, where soil suffers from acidity 
and needs the chemical. 

The V/elland riding is highly industrialized 
and probably has a greater share of V/orkmen's Compen- 
sation cases than most Ontario ridings. The Workmen's 
Compensation Act of Ontario is model legislation and 
the Board has carried out the terms of the Act effectively. 
They are, however, tied to the terms of the Act by 
regulations and cannot exceed them, I am concerned 
about a number of cases that might be considered 
border-line. V' ry often in these border-line cases, 
there is a legitimate doubt as to the rights of the 
applicant for benefits. The Board, in its official 
capacity, is unable to overcome this; they must serve 


as an administrative board and carry out the functions 
according to the letter of the law. In the meantirae, 
there are cases that do not fall into the pattern of 
the legislation or are unable to qualify. In order that 
we might assure ourselves these persons are not being 
penalized, I feel that an Ax^^-eal Board should be 
established, to consider these border-line cases. In 
this manner, the Board would be in a position to weigh 
all the evidence intelligently and have the right to 
make an award if there is reasonable doubt as to the 
q^ualif ications of a case. It may be necessary for the 
province to provide a lump sum each year so the Appeal 
Board may have some funds to meet the requirements in 
these cases. V/e all appreciate the fact that industry 
makes the major contribution to compensation, and we 
do not want to be unfair to industry, nor add to the 
cost of living by extending contributions beyond a 
reasonable scale, in a few v/ords, an Appeal Board having 
authority to use its judgment in border-line cases, 
is what is required to meet this need. 

A week ago Sunday I was called to the town 
of Port Colborne and there saw a pitiful sight, a man 
in bed, his two arms were paralysed and his legs v;ere 
paralysed. It was a nice, clean home, his good wife 
was there He happened to be an employee of the 


Federal Government, employed by the Department of Rail- 
ways and Canals. Through some misunderstanding or 
misinterpretation, he did not qualify for compensation 
and he is in dire circumstances to-day. That is one 
reason why I make this suggestion, Mr. Speaker. I have 
no fault to find with the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. 
Daley) or the Compensation Board, but I feel it my duty 
to bring this special item before you. This case has 
been going on for three years and they asked me if 
there v/as any possible way they might get assistance. 
They have no other assistance than the sum his fellow 
employees are contributing each month to help keep the 
wolf from the door. It is just a suggestion, Mr. Speaker, 
that if there was an Appeal Board, these border-line 
cases could be worked out. 

I am interested in the common man. Through- 
out the years I have seen hardship, frustration and 
problems that are just too much for many to bear. I 
am pleased v/ith the progressive legislation that this 
Government has been introducing in the welfare field, 
I am sure the nev; disabled allowance Bill will fill a 
very great need in providing for these most difficult 
cases. fJe all know of cases that just seem to be beyond 
any physical rehabilitation. I have in mind a young man 
in my own area who, I think, has as much courage as 


anyone I know. This young man's mind is as clear as a 
bell and yet, because of this affliction, he must remain 
an incurable for the rest of his days. This boy, however, 
is sparking and encouraging all other chronic invalids. 
I know that for one he has expressed real interest and 
appreciation for this supposed allowance. 

May I say to the everlasting credit of the 
hon. Minister of Public Vfclfare (Mr, Gcodfellow) , at 
long last the collection of estates has ceased. It was 
a constant threat of every elderly person xvho acquired, 
through the years, any real property. In other words, 
we have been penaliz'-.''.^ thosn who ha^^e been thrifty and 
encouraging those v/ho failed to save for later days. 
As you know, at one time, when a man v/ho 
saved a little money and had his ov.ti hems, eventually did 
receive the Old Age Pension or Assictance, if he had 
property, that was put a^-?.inst his estate. That 
certainly was penalizing or punishii^.g Lhp man who tried 
to save a dollar, and I, ersonally. am for the man 
who has a little ambition and tries to get on and save 
something for the future. I am sure that each and 
every one of us in the province of Ontario appreciates 
the legislation that the hon. Minister of V/elfare {lir, 
Goodfellow) has brought forward in p.limdnating that. 
There are no claims put on real estate to-day. 


I am, however, concerned with the value of the 
dollar in existence and feel very strongly that the 
Government should reconsider the amount of pension 
they are providing pensioners with to-day. I think 
this partnership arrangement should stipulate that the 
Government pays fifty percent of the pension. The onus 
is on the Dominion Government to keep abreast of the 
cost of living and it is time they considered fifty 
dollars instead of forty dollars* pension. I am sure 
the province of Ontario would be v;illing to go along. 

I am glad the Speech from the Throne mentioned 
assistance to municipalities in their highway problems, 
Yi'e have that situation in our V/elland riding. As you 
know, the V/elland ship canal does connect Lake Erie and 
Lake Ontario and on the east side of the V/elland ship 
canal, we have a highway all the v^^ay through, but on 
the west side, we have none. This is causing a great 
deal of inconvenience in my riding, especially when the 
boats go through. Most of our Industrial workers are 
on the east side of the We Hand ship canal and the 
residential section is on the west side and at times, 
they probably have to -wait half an hour to three- 
quarters of an hour with long lines of traffic because 
of the boats going through, I do believe, Mr, Speaker, 
that some solution could be worked out between the 



Federal Government and the Provincial Government .to 
alleviate the bottlenecks In V/elland. I hope this can 
be done. 

It certainly is amazing the way the Press 
gets the gist of a speaker's efforts. I have just been 
thinking how poorly Informed the public would be without 
the thorough understanding of public issues for which we 
can almost wholly thank the Press. 

In conclusion, I say it is an honour and a 
privilege to represent the people of the County of V/elland, 
and I do hope with the municipal experience I have, 
that I will be able to look after their interests, and 
also contribute something to this great province of 

MR. W. r/rURDOCH (Essex South); Mr. Speaker, in 
the absence of Mr. Beckett, I move the adjournment of 
the debate. 

Motion agreed to. 


HON. C. DALEY (Minister of Labour) moves second 

reading of Bill No. 80, "An Act to Amend the V7orkmen's 

Compensation Act". 

He said: In view of all that has happened, 

in view of the criticism, unjustifiable I might add, of 

the Workmen's Compensation Act, I think that I should 

make rather a comprehensive statement about this 


particular Act. This Bill, No. 80, includes a 
number of things v/hich are intended to improve the 
Viforianen's Compensation Act, and has been the result of a 
study made by Mr. Justice Roach in his now very famous 
and comprehensive report regarding IVorkmen's Compensation. 
As I have said before, the Workmen's Compensation Act 
has benefitoed to a great extent by the observations 
and the recommendations made by Mr. Justice Roach. Before 
going into the details of that particular phase of our 
investigation, I v/ould like to g'ive you a resume of 
Workmen's Compensation since its beginning. I had a 
great deal of research done on this matter, a consider- 
able amount for which I must beg your indulgence, because 
I will have to read it, it would be impossible for 
anyone of my ability to have absorbed all this 
information and be able to give it verbatim. 

(Take "G" follows) 



In the early stages of growth of this 
Province in l380 and I89O, there was very little, 
if any, means of providing injured workmen with any 
financial assistance for expenses incurred as a 
result of industrial accidents. There was copied 
from the eld English, "Employers' Liability Act", 
an Act which was known as the "Workmen's Compensation 
for Injuries Act", which while it used for the first 
time the term, *'compensation"in relation to industrial 
injuries, it could not have been considered a 
Workmen's Compensation Act. This legislation did 
not protect an injured workman or his dependents if 
the accident was caused through the workmen's own 
negligence or the negligence of a fellow workman. 

Organized labour, even though in its infancy 
in those days, made vigorous representations to the 
Provincial Government of the day, and as a result 
of such representations the late Sir William 
Meredith was commissioned by the Government on 
June 30th, 1910, to make- inquiries as to the laws 
relating to the liability- of employers to pay 
compensation to their employees for injuries re- 
ceived in the course of their employment. The 
Commission further empowered the Chief Justice to 
make any recommendations he saw fit in the Work- 
men's Compensation for Injuries Act, or to recom- 
mend to the Government an entirely new type of law. 
Sir William Meredith made three reports to the Pro- 
vincial Government, namely, March 27th, 1912, 


April 1st, 1913, and October 31st, 1913- These 
reports were based on Sir William's opinion after 
considering the numerous briefs and evidence and 
proposals submitted to him at the various public 
hearings . 

V/orkmen's Compensation for Injuries Act, 
vfhlch as already mentioned was in essence an 
Employer's Liability Act, in denying a workmen or 
his dependents any redress if the accident was 
caused by his negligence or the negligence of a 
fellow workman, also denied the workman or his de- 
pendents any redress if he was considered to 
have voluntarily assumed the risks of employment. 
This section of that particular Act would ■ 
practically bar every injured workman, because 
it was generally assumed by law that if a workman 
accepted employment in the Province, he knew 
of the risks Involved in such employment. 

Organized labour, who was "carrying the 
torch** to what they termed proper legislation, to 
take care of injured workmen, were represented 
at the public hearings by the late Fred Bancroft, then 
Vice-President of the Trades and Labour Congress of 
Canada, and the late Joseph Gibbons, a Special 
Representative of the Trades and Labour Congress 
of Canada, who later became one of the Toronto 
Hydro Electric Power Commissioners, Wm. L. Best, 
The Dominion Legislative Representative of the 
Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen 


and the only member of the Labour Delegation presently 
living, C, Lawrence, Dominion Legislative Representative 
of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and J. H. Hall, 
Legislative Representative of the Order of Railway 
Conductors. These men were assisted by the late Tom 
Moore, former President of the Trades and Labour Congress 
of Canada, the late James Simpson, former Mayor of the 
City of Toronto and John Bruce, Dominion Representative 
of the Plumbers and Steam Fitters' Union. 

Various casualty Insurance Companies were 
represented before the Royal Commission to oppose any 
changes in the old Liability Law. Most of the industries 
represented by the Can?dian Manufacturers Association 
also objected to labour's proposal in its entirety. The 
early notes of Sir Vifilliam seemed to indicate that he 
was so convinced of the utter injustices of the vVormken's 
Compensation for Injuries Act that he intended to make 
what was termed in those days , "radical recomjuendations" 
to change the entire concept of this whole problem, even 
to the point of taking such matters out of the courts 
and out of the hands of the legal profession, to over- 
come as he termed it, the costly delays and nuisances 
of litigation, in order that the injured v;orkman and 
his dependants could receive the benefits of speedy 
justice, humanely administered. 


There are some interesting notations in the 

brief submitted to the Royal Comraission in opiosition 

to any change in the law, and these tend to shov/ that 

leaders of business and. industry of that day had very 

little foresight in this regard, and most certainly shows 

hov/ far this Province has progressed in its legislation, 

and how far the people of the Province have progressed 

in their thinking. A quotation from one of these briefs '. 

to the Royal Commission is as follows: 

"Fui-'thermore their recipient, (cf V/orkmen's 
Compensation), upon oath must declare to the 
satisfaction of the Commissioners whether or not 
his action, (filing of claim) has been launched 
under the auspices or advice of any Trade Union." 

In another section of the brief is the following: 

"Our only regret is that the Commissioner has 
brought in a bill, which in our opinion, is 
unworkable and which if adopted will cause 
needless trouble. V/e think it is very un- 
fortunate that the Government ever asked this man. 
Sir William Meredith, to bring in the bill". 

Still in another section from the brief js as follows: 

"Since our business extends from one end of 
the Dominion to the other, we will not be able 
to meet competition because of the heavy 
charges that the proposed Injury Act will put 
upon our business". 

Still another portion of the brief signed by a ]ate 

prominent mem.ber of the Senate, who was President 

of a large company, doing dominion wide business, states 


the following, in referring to the Bill: 

"It is extremely drastic and we are quite 
agreeable that dependants of families of v/ork- 
men to have lost their lives in industry, should 
be paid by the State, and for this reason, we do 
not feel that the proposed bill is a just one". 

Later in the same brief this man says: 

"There does not seem to be the slightest shadow 
of justice in jaying these dependants of the 
injured viorkmen if the accident was caused 
through no negligence on my part". 

The final recommendation of this group to Sir William 

Meredith is as follows: 

"A percentage of the premium rates representing 
the proportions of the accidents due to the 
fault of the workmen should be chargeable 
at the option of the employers and upon due 
notice to the workman, and shall be deducted 
by the employers from the wages of the workmen". 

I give you those thoughts in order to 
indicate what the feeling was In those days in regard 
to this Act. 

In Sir William's final reports to the 
Legislature he did recommend an entirely new Act, 
and"radical"as it was referred to, the Government 
of that day accepted his recommendations and enacted 
a law known as, "The Workmen's Compensation Act 
of Ontario", and this law became effective for 
accidents arising out of and in the course of one's 
employment in the industries covered at that time, 
which happened on or after January 1st, 1915. The 


new law disregarded the question of negligence in 
its entirety, and recognized the mlsfoi^tune of a 
crippled workman and the needs of his widow and 
children, irrespective of whether the accident was 
caused through his own negligence or the negligence 
cf a fellow workman^ or as a matter of fact irrespec- 
tive of any type of negligence or any other circum- 
stances. The new law made provision for its 
administration by a Commission appointed by the 
Legislature and such Commission was to be known as 
"The Workmen's Compensation Board/* a body corporate 
and consisting of three members. This Board has 
exclusive jurisdiction to examine into, hear and 
determine all matters and questions arising under 
Part 1 of the Act, and as to any matter or thing 
in respect to which any power, authority or dis- 
cretion is conferred upon the Board, and the action 
or decision of the Board, thereon, is final and 
conclusive, and is not open to question or review 
in any court nor may any proceeding before the 
Board be restrained. History has shown that 
those who opposed this legislation have been 
wrong in all their major points of opposition, 
namely cost, hardship on industry, and the Act 
being a detergent to new industries locating in 
this Province. 

In 1915, when the Act became operative there 
were 1^,750 employers, whose operations came within 


the provisions of the Act. The assessable payrolls 
for that year were $147,603,000. The average 
assessment rate was $1.27 per $100.00 oi" pcyroll. 
There were 17,033 accidents reported to the Board 
during the first year the Act was in effect and 
the benefits amounted to $893,321.12. The 
original Act provided that during periods of total 
temporary disability a workman was to be compen- 
sated on 55 per cent of his average earnings for the 
year preceding his compensable accident up to a 
maximum of $2,000.00 . per year. There v;as no 
medical aid whatever provided for by the Act at 
that time. Further representations were made by 
organized labour to the Government of the day and 
the Act was amended to provide for medical aid, 
for compensable injuries, effective April 24x;h, 1919, 
and a still further amendment effective July 1st, 1920, 
increased the percentage from 55 per cent to 66 2/3 
per cent. In 1921, the number of e-'iployers, v;hose 
operations came within the provisions of the Act 
had Increased to 17,917, and the assessable pay- 
roll to $355,259,000.00. The average assessnient 
rate had also increased to $1.3^ per $100.00 of 
payroll. In that year there were 45,191 accidents 
reported, and the benefits awarded, which included 
medical aid and a retroactive increase to widows, 
amounted to $6,189,263-49. In 1926 the Government 
of the day amended the Act to make silicosis an 
industrial disease, and from time to time made 


certain other changes in the list of industrial 
diseases covered by the Act's provisions. On 
July 1st, 19^3, the maximum provided by the Act 
was increased from $2,000.00 to $2,500.00 per year 
and applied to accidents which happened on and 
after July 1st, 19^43. The following year the 
number of employers whose operations came within the 
provisions of the Act had increased to 25,001, and 
the assessable payroll to $1,169,052,000.00, whereas, 
the average assessment rate was reduced to $1.02 
per $100.00 of payroll. There were 123,820 acci- 
dents reported and the benefits awarded amounted to 
$12,485,599.95. In 1945 and 19^6 further amendments 
were enacted such as providing for artificial 
appliances required on and after January 1st, 1946, 
irrespective of the date of the accident. In 
other words, this amendment gave the Board authority 
to provide and maintain artifical appliances for 
those workmen who suffered such permanent disa- 
bilities between January 1st, I915, and April 24th, 
1919, when medical aid became part of the law. 
Effective January 1st, 1950, and applying to accidents 
which happened on and after that date, the percentage 
of compensation was increased from 66 2/3 per cent 
to 75 pe^ cent, and the maximum annual salary from 
$2,500.00 to $3,000.00. In the year following this 
amendment there were 47,858 employers whose opera- 
tions came within the provisions of the Act, and the 
assessable payroll amounted to $2,391,000,000.00, 


the average assessment rate being reduced to 
$1.00 per $100.00 of payroll. There were 
202,6^5 accidents reported and the benefits 
amounted to $24,999,520.75. 

Mr. Speaker leaves the Chair. 

Mr. parry in the Chair. 

MR. DALEY: Other important amendments 
were enacted between the years 19^5 and 19^7, which 
extended the protection of the Act to thousands of 
injured workmen. These amendments brought all the 
operations of municipalities within the provisions 
of the Act and by compulsion brought in the employees 
of school boards, hospitals, sanatorlums, hotels, 
restaurants, taxis, all employees of all government 
boards and commissions as well as the employees of 
the Provincial Government. The amendment of 1946 
gave to these employees, municipalities, government 
boards and commissions, who are in Schedule 2 of the 
Act, and extended to the other employees of Schedule 
2 employers such as Railways, Steamship Lines, 
etcetera, the same right as has been enjoyed by 
the employees of the other industries since 1944, 
namely the right of free initial choice of doctor 
for treatment of their compensable injuries and 
such medical aid was to be provided through the 
Board and not direct between employer and employee 
as formerly. 

(Take "H" follows) 


There has been only one political change in 
the history of the Board, and this took place follow- 
ing the 1934 elections. This Government and prior 
Governments of the same faith have never intruded into 
the Board's affairs, and have assured the Board absolute 
freedom from any political control. The Board appoints 
its ov/n staff, and has full and absolute control of 
same, and no member of the staff has ever been dismissed 
or disciplined for political reasons. The Board is in 
absolute control of its funds in that it is entirely 
self-sustained. There are nd monies whatever giveji 
to the Board by the Legislature, and no contributions 
whatever from workmen who are covered by the provisions 
of the Act. 

There are two Schedules under Part 1 of the 
Act, Schedule 1, whose employer members contribute to 
the Board's funds by way of an assessment on their 
payrolls and ^Schedule 2, where the employer is indivi- 
dually liable for the entire cost of his compensable 
claims. As far as the injured workman or his dependants 
are concerned there is no difference in the Act's 
provisions. Should an employer be in default in 
reporting his operations or in the payment of his 
assessment, the workman's right to compensation is not 


affected, thereby, that is, the right to compensation 
is present so long as the employer's operations are 
under the Act regardless of the employer's default. 

One of the main points in administering this 
Act, is the interpretation of its provisions and the 
present Board are carrying out not only the desires 
of the I^inister, but we feel also the intent placed 
on the legislation by its framer, that is, it is a 
VJorkmen's Compensation Act, and that the interpretation 
should be as broad as humanly possible and that wherever 
there is doubt the benefit of such doubt must go to the 
injured workman or his dependants, t7e feel that the 
great majority of employers in the Province agree with 
this principle. The Act provides that the Board was 
not to be bound by any legal precedence in fact not 
even by its own precedence. Different benefits are 
provided by the Act such as compensation, medical aid, 
rehabilitation, etc. As already mentioned, the scale 
of compensation is affected by statute. The amend- 
ments placed on the statute books by this Government 
have been such that they do not limit the Board in 
any manner as to what it may do in respect to providing 


medical aid, in fact in cases of severe injury or 
complicating conditions, medical aid may form by far 
the greater part of the cost of a claim. 

Before going into the question of paraplegics, 
I would like to draw the attention of the House to the 
fact that recently there has been a considerable amount 
of publicity in the newspapers regarding the three 

gunmen who were abroad in the land, and who seriously 
injured -two Toronto policemen. 

It may not be generally understood what part 
the VJorkmen's Compensation would play in that, but 
the amendment to Section 50 gives the Board full 
control over all medical aid for Schedule 2 employers, 
especially by the ^'-fording which reads, "Shall be 
furnished or arranged by the Board as it may direct 

or approve" . 

Mr. Speaker in the Chair, 

MR. DALEY: ■.'Je maintain a paraplegic team 
composed of the very best men available who are on 
call 24 hours a day. We maintain an arrangement with 
three plastic surgeons who are on call in any part of 
the province, in connection with burns. 


We have had considerable dealings with the 
Toronto Police Commission in connection with these 
men who were seriously hurt in this gun fight, and we 
had a little difficulty in convincing them exactly 
what should be done. In any event, in -che case of 
Sergeant Tong, the man who was so seriously hurt, may 
I say that he is in our second floor vrard at the 
Toronto General Hospital, and has the benefit of the 
finest neuro- surgeons on the Board's paraplegic team. 

The Board also maintains a blood bank, and 
pays the regular fee for the necessary blood plasma. 
As I say, Sgt. Tong is receiving the very finest 
medical assistance which can be provided any place, 
anywhere, under the jurisdiction of the Compensation 

Police Constable Deadman, who was wounded 
during the drug store hold-up, I think about a year 
ago, is still in the second floor ward of the Toronto 
Genferal Hospital, under the Board's complete juris- 
diction, and is receiving treatment from the Board's 
therapists, occupational therapists and phyciotherapists. 
The Globe & Mail of IVIarch 30th said that Sgt. Tong 
will be receiving occupational therapy and physio- 
therapy through the facilities of the Toronto General 



Hospital. I do not want to detract in any way from 
the Toronto General Hospital, but it is the Workmen's 
Compensation Board which is supplying these facilities, 
and he has received them, and will continue to receive 
occupational therapy, physiotherapy , and special nursing, 
provided by the Board, 

All these services have been made possible 
by the amendment giving the Board full and absolute 
control of all cases of medical aid. These services 
are not something that is peculiar to the Toronto 
General Hospital, but they are available throughout 
the Province, to every workman in the Province of 
Ontario who is covered by the provisions of the Act, 
irrespective of v;here he may be injured. \'Ie use 
chartered planes, special trains, private ambulances, 
planes of the Department of Lands and Forests, and 
cars of the Ontario Provincial Police in providing 
these services. 

We have in the neighbourhood of seventy 
paraplegics and the cost for these has varied from 
v30,000.00 to ,,32,000. 00. I feel on this point 
I should tell you of some of the services provided 
under the heading of "J'edical Aid" , by the Board and 
as far as I know there is not another Workmen's 


Cpmpensation 3oard on this Continent that provides 
for such services. While these services may be 
termed expensive, nevertheless, they render the best 
type of treatment to the workman and oftentimes, as 
a result of these services, the workman is able to 
carry on at some type of gainful emplojment, and the 
cost to the employer is thereby lessened. To illus- 
trate this, the Board have on a retainer fee basis, 
Dr. H, Botterell an outstanding neurosurgeon, Dr. 
Jousse, a neurologist and Dr. Ebhart, a specialist in 
internal medicine. This is the only paraplegic team 
that I know of, and is on call for the Board twenty- 
four hours a day. Recently a workman was injured in 
the town of Cochrane, and the doctor there, acting 
under the Board's regulations, telephoned the Board 
advising of the accident and that in his opinion the 
man's spine had been fractured. He v;as told by the 
Board not to move this man, and the Board immediately 
proceeded to charter a T. C. A. Air craft, and sent a 
striker frame to Cochrane on the Aircraft together 
with a doctor and a nurse. Within seven hours of the 
time of this call the man was in a Toronto Hospital 
under the care of the paraplegic team. The necessary 
surgery was done and the man was transferred to the 


Board's Malton Clinic and is now back at work. His 
only remaining permanent disability is that he cannot 
fully bend his spine to touch the ground. He has a 
back that is just as strong as ever and under the 
Board's regulations will receive his proper pension 
baSed on his physical disability, even though he is 
back at work at no wage loss and can continue to earn 
wages perhaps in excess of those he eai*,i>eji_.-preeeding 
his accident. 

V/e have another case, as an i 1 lustra t irDn ^he re a 
general manager, who was covered under the Act along 
with his employees, was injured in a compensable 
accident, about forty miles west of the city of Calgary. 
In the accident the spinal cord was completely severed, 
and because there are no facilities for such paraplegic 
treatment on the Prairies, the Board arranged with the 
T.C.A. to remove three sets of seats on one of their 
regular planes and sent a striker frame and a nurse, 
to accompany this man back to Toronto. He was placed 
under the care of this team and transferred to Lynd- 
hurst Lodge, where the Board have a number of their 
paraplegics. His treatment has been completed, and 
he has been supplied with the necessary braces and 


wheel-chair and is now back at work carrying out his 
former duties aS' General Manager of the Company, 

\'Je have had other cases where men have been 
badly burned in explosions. In this respect the Board 
have on call Eloctors Farmer, Hoyle Campbell and John 
Crd, who are three of 'tie outstanding plastic surgeons 
of the country, specializing in burn cases. The 
Board also keeps on hand a fairly substantial stock 
of blood plasma, and we have forwarded this plasma, as 
well as these doctors, to various parts of the Province, 
and as a result have saved workmen's lives. I'le have 
also sent both the -olasma and these doctors by private 
automobile under Provincial Police escort to parts 
of the Province and have further transported them by 
special train. One specific case would be the explosion 
at a Brantford factory some few years ago where we sent 
the doctors and continued to transport blood plasma to 
the Brantford Hospital from Toronto in Board auto- 
mobiles, '"/e were thankful for the co-operation of the 
Provincial Police in this case, and we had blood plasma 
and doctors in Brantford within sixty minutes of the 
time we received the call. Because of the terrible 
burns it was necessary to build special tanks in which 
these men could be immersed completely in the proper 



oils. This bank was designed by Dr. Hoyle Campbell, 
and was erected in a matter of a few days through the 
co-operation and efforts of the officials of Toronto 
St. I?ichael's Hospital. '■Je were aole to save the 
lives of sor^e of these men, and now they are back gain- 
fully employed. 

In addition to all the foregoing, the Ontario 
Board was the first, and as far as I know, is the only 
Workmen's Compensation Board, to provide and maintain a 
complete physical medicine hospital. This is the world- 
famous Malton Centre, and "world famous"is the only 
proper terminology. There have been persons sent 
here for training and to the Board's offices to study 
the Act and its administration, by the United Nations, 
and these people have come from England, France, Sweden, 
Non^'ay, Finland, The Netherlands, Italy, Yugoslavia, 
Southern Rhodesia, South Africa, India, South America, 

Puerto Rico, Haiti and Mexico and surprising as it may 
seem to the members of this House, there is hardly a 

month that we do not have perso" from the United States 
being trained at this Centre. VJe have had occupational 
and physiotherapists from practically every State in the 
United States, 'Je have had a number, in addition to 


'these, who have come to Malton for long periods of 
training under certain scholarships. We have had 
groups sent here from California, IVIassachusetts and 
other States to complete their training in physical 
medicine. In other words, officially all those States 
have felt that a period of training in this pioneer 
centre is necessary before they will grant those 
persons their full qualifications in their respective 
States. 'Je have had doctors from different countries 
including the United States who have put in a full 
year at Malton to learn our methods of treatment. 
'•Je have a staff at I'alton of 200-odd consisting of 
doctors, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, 
registered nurses, remedial gymnasts, radiologists, 
x-ray technicians, dietitians, ward aides and the 
necessary kitchen and housekeeping staff. I'/e have 
§n average of about 500 patients at Malton daily. 
Because we cannot bring all our cases to Malton, we 
as far as possible, supervise the type of first aid 
in various industries, supervise all the medical aid, 
supply physical and occupational therapy in the areas 
in which it is available, train the injured workmen 
in the use of their artificial appliances and arrange 
for our Rehabilitation Officers to contact all such 


seriously injured workmen as soon as humanly possible 
following their accident, so we can be of assistance 
in planning a proper rehabilitation course for that 
particular injured workman. 

(Take "I" follows) 


We firmly believe in the value of early rehabilitation 
measures and we find that by contacting the workman 
as soon as possible we can keep his morale at a high 
level which in itself is one of the greatest factors 
in speedy convalescence and the return to gainful 
employment . 

To sum up this piece of legislation, which 
is unsurpassed on this Universe^, you could list the 

(1) No courts 

(2) NO technicalities 

(3) No lawyers required unless the injured 
workman himself desires counsel 

(^) No private insurance 

(5) No waivers 

(6) No assignments unless approved by the 



(7) No closed cases -- a case is neve] 

(8) No medical controversies 

(9) No protracted delays 

(10) No limit to time^ which means a life- 
time and is something which does not exist in so 
many Compensation Acts specifying a certain period 
of time in which an injured workman may draw from 
the Board. No limit to amount of compensation 

up to maximum annual salary. 

(11) No limit to time or cost of medical 
aid. As I already stated, in some of these 


paraplegic cases it cost the Board from $30^,000 to 
$82,000 for one case. 

(12) No failure of compensation because of 
employer's default. 

(13) Act available to farmers on voluntary 
basis . 

(14) No contribution by a workman. 

(15) No adversary relationship between 
employer and employee. There Is no controversy 
between the employee and the employer. 

(16) No commissions. 

(17) No profits. 

Since January 1st, 1915, up to this date^ 
there have been 3,127,^57 accidents reported to the 
Board and $320,900,318.26 has been paid out in 
benefits. However, with all the Increases in 
benefits, with the medical aid services and all 
the things that we do, the operation at the Mai ton 
Clinic, the average cost of the assessment, has 
been reduced from $1.27 per $100 of payroll to 
$1 per $100 of payroll, as of December 31st, 1951, 
and it is estimated that the ratio of workmen and 
dependents who now receive compensation in Ontario 
as against those who received damages under the law 
existing prior to January 1st . 1915:, is more than 
25 to 1. 

I think, Mr. Speaker, I can without boast- 
ing reiterate what others have said, that our 
Workmen's Compensation Act is the best to be found 
anywhere in the world. In administering our Act 


the workman is given the benefit of the doubt. Our 

aim is to cover all people and we have been steadily 

moving forward in that regard.' In the last few 

years we have brought Industries not, formerly 

covered, under this Act which has added possibly 

one hundred thousand or more workmen and given them 

the protection of the Act. Recently in this House, 

in this Session, I announced that we were eliminating 

the numbers from small industries which will be 

done, and that will add a goodly number of thousands 

more, but we are gradually getting into the physical 

position vjhere we can handle this increased amount 

of business because our new building is progressing 

very favourably. As I say, when our new building 

is completed our methods of administration will be 

perfected and changed, and we will move forward as 

we have done in the past in maintaining this as the 

finest piece of legislation to be found anywhere. 

I just notice here a short clipping taken 

from Time Magazine. I do not think we go quite 

this far, but it says, concerning Australia — 

"An occupational hazard of the 
political profession paid off in 
Australia last week. The Workers' 
Compensation Commission ordered the 
Liberal Party to pay $l68 to a party 
organizer named Douglas Stoate Date. 
The reason: he had shaken hands so 
enthusiastically at party head- 
quarters in November, 19^9, that he 
broke his right little finger." 

I was just wondering if I might be re- 
ceiving a claim from my colleague the hon. Minister 
of Health (Mr. Phillips). I noticed during the 


election he was going around with something the 
matter with his wrist. I do not know whether it 
was the result of too vigorously shaking hands or 

MR. I/. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): The • ■ 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) had something wrong 
with his arm a while ago. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): I reoeived 
no compensation^ though. 

HON. F. S. THOMAS (Minister of Public Works): 
Quite a lot of compensation. 

MR. DALEY: I have a letter here which I am 
not going to read, except a couple of short para- 
graphs. I would like to place this letter in 
Hansard, Mr. Speaker, with your permission, because 
i think the story as it is stated here is one that 
the hon. members may like to read, but I do not wish 
to take the time to read this whole letter. This 
letter was written by Marshall Dawson. As a matter 
of fact, it was a speech he made in the United States. 

He is of the United States Department of Labour 
at Washington. I happen to know this man. I 
think he is the chief authority in the United 
States on Workmen's Compensation Acts and holds a 
very responsible position in Washington. He. 
starts cut by saying: 

"There is a familiar saying 'money 
talks'. In November, 1951^ the maxi- 
mum weekly payment for temporary total 
disability, under the South Carolina 
workmen's compensation law (he talks 
about different States who have different 


compensation laws In this letter) is $25.00. 
In Ontario it is $57.69. Can you tell the 
reasons for that difference?" 

He is asking these people. 

"Again, South Carolina pays 60 
per cent of average wages as compen- 
sation in disability cases, while 
Ontario pays 75 per cent. Can you 
tell the reasons for that difference? 

"And last but not least ..." 

And this is partially in answer to the hon. member 

for Welland (Mr. Morningstar) . 

"... the Ontario Workmen's Compensation 
Board has a large and world-renowned 
rehabilitation center for injured workers, 
while the South Carolina Industrial Com- 
mission has none. ^an you tell the 
reasons for that difference? 

"Let me tell you one of the main reasons, 
and it may be different from what anybody 
has ever told you before. It is a reason 
applicable not to South Carolina alone, 
but to most of the workmen's compensation 
administrations in the United States. 
The reason is this: a workmen's compen- 
sation dollar that has been bitten by 
the cost of litigation does not pay the 
highest benefits and build big rehabilita- 
tion centers. Unfortunately, most of 
the people in the United States who are 
denouncing the inadequacy of the com- 
pensation laws and demanding their 
improvement refuse to face that fact. 
Because this could be the last speech 
I ever make on workmen's compensation, I 
am therefore, using this occasion for a 
talk to you on the IMPACT OF LITIGATION 

"Increasingly insistent demands for the 
• improvement of the- workmen 's compensation 
system confront us. At the same time there 
are wide differences of opinion as to what 
is a good workmen* s compensation law. For 
instance, the American Federation of Labour, 
during its annual conventions, has 
repeatedly adopted resolutions declaring 
that the Ohio V/orkmen's Compensation Act 
is "the model workmen's compensation law." 
(BLS Bulletin 672, p. 29, foot-note Kg). 


*'i'm outstanding oharact eristic of the 
Ohio Law is its provision for jury trials in 
cases appealed to the courts. On the other 
hand, the statements appear in the synopsis 
which is the customary preface to the printed 
text of the Ontario workmen's compensation 
law: "The present lav/ and methods of admin- 
istration have very great advantages over the 
old law and over other systems. ..In liberal- 
ity of benefits Ontario stands first among 
the laws of the continent." (Ontario V/ork- 
men's Compensation Act, 1951 edition, p. 8). 
And, while the /imerican Federation of Labour 
has set the seal of pre-eminence upon the 
Ohio law, on the other hand, the major labour 
unions and labour leaders of Canada have con- 
sistently, for decades, approved the Ontario 
type of law, which is the opposite of the 
Ohio law in the respect of forbidding, not 
jury trials on appeal, but any court appeals 
whatever. It is significant that while the 
leaders of the railway unions or "brother- 
hoods" in the United States think that all 
our workmen's compensation laws, including 
the Ohio law, are so bad* that they insist on . 
remaining under liability law coverage with 
court remedies, the railway union leaders in 
Canada not only embrace but eulogize the 
Ontario type of workmen's compensation law. 
For instance, in 1935, William L. Best, then 
national legislative representative. Brother- 
hood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, 
Ottawa, Ontario, gave this appraisal of the 
Ontario workmen's compensation system: 

"V/hilst few social or industrial 
measures of this character produce 100 
per cent, satisfaction in the benefits 
awarded, especially when dealing with 
such a large variety of industrial claims 
for compensation for injuries, there is 
no measure of its kind in the world, to 
my knowledge, that has given a greater 
degree of satisfaction." (BLS Bulletin 
672, p. 25, foot-note 42). 

V/hat we have here is the approval, by 
major labour organizations, as "models", of 
two v/orkmen's compensation laws of directly 
opposite types. The one thing they have in 
common is that both are "State fund" or 
public insurance laws. Both are labelled 
"model", but there must be some difference 
betv;een them to account for the fact that one 
law now pays disability benefits of s?30. a 
week, while the other pays benefits of $57.69. 
It is often said by some critics of the 
existing system in the United States that the 
reason bigger benefits are not paid or cannot 
be paid is that so much of the private 
insurance dollar is consumed in administrative 
costs. However, in the examples cited, we 


have to do not only with two administrations 
both of the State fund type, but in the case 
of Ohio, v/hich in this comparison pays much 
the smaller benefits, the administrative ex- 
pense does not come out of the premium dollar 
but is provided by legislative appropriation, 
and is paid by the tax-payers of the State. 
V/hat I am trying to do, in this comparison, 
is not to disparage the Ohio fund or any other 
compensation administration, but to block the 
road of escape from considering the cost of 
litigation in relation to low benefits and 
undeveloped services to injured workers. The 
Ohio fund has litigation and jury trials; the 
Ontario fund doesn't, but has a great rehabil- 
itation center. 

Differences of opinion as to what con- 
stitutes a good workmen's compensation law 
have been shown, in the viewpoints of the 
American Federation of Labour, on the one hand, 
and the Canadian legislative representative 
of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and 
Enginemen, on the other hand. The presence, 
side by side, of contrasting examples, can 
greatly advance one's knowledge of a subject, 
for, as Herbert Spencer has said, "All knowledge 
is comparative." The important thing, of 
course, is to see correctly the essential 
elements that account for the difference in 
the examples. 

In order to give some United States 
labour leaders the advantage of contrasting 
pictures, in 1946 I arranged for a large group 
of CIO labor leaders to go with me to Ontario 
and spend the greater part of a week studying 
the activities of the Ontario Vforkmen's 
Compensation Board and its rehabilitation 
center. The report of Ted F. Silvey upon 
that visit concludes as follows: 

"The concensus of delegate opinion seemed 
to be that the Ontario Vforkmen's Compensation 
Act stood up exceedingly well under close 
appraisal, and that they could use much of the 
study as a basis for a campaign for improvement 
of United States compensation laws." (CIO 
y/orkmen's Compensation Activities, p. 31(1946). 

To avoid any misunderstanding, I must say 
that Ted Silvey's concluding words explain 
why I have emphasized the Ontario example — 
It is the best basis I have found "for a 
campaign for improvement of United States 
compensation laws." I have not said that the 
States must adopt the Ontario law. What I am 


doing is, exhibiting an example for what it is 
worth in educational terms. However , it is 
thought -provoking, in viov/ of the i-i..F. of L. 
declaration that the Ohio law is the model, that 
after Ted Silvey's visit- to Toronto an Ohio 
labour leader, returning from a trip to Toronto 
in 1947, prepared a pamphlet entitled, "The 
Ontario Story, a Plan for Ohio." I cite a few 
sentences of the comment, not because they are 
aimed at Ohio by a citizen of that State, but 
because, if they are truly applicable to Ohio, 
they would be equally applicable to most of the 
States of the Union. 

The writer of the pamphlet — who, in- 
cidentally, is a lawyer — said: 

"Our Canadian brothers are in the van 
of the '/orkmen's Compensation parade. Ohio has 
a long way to run to catch up... (p. 8). "The 
real merits and justice of the case." (p. 7). 

He then compared the Ohio medical and rehabilita- 
tion program and results with those in Ontario, 
and said: 

"Ontario points the way to us in this 
gravely important branch of ./orkmen's Compensation." 
(p. 7). 

The C.I.O. leader then presents an action plan: 
Item 1, elect a progressive State legislature; 
item 2, launch an educational program; item 3, 
enlist civic leaders in the union's effort to get 
a rehabilitation center for Ohio. 

What was omitted in such a ticket il- 
lustrates the dix'ficulty that confronts us in 
respect to launching any effective campaign 
to improve the workmen's compensation laws. It 
is like an order for ham-and-eggs without the ham, 
or without the eggs. No mention was made of the 
crucial need for emancipating the Ohio Industrial 
Commission from the burden of litigation that is 
crushing it. The intention seems to be to demand 
top-notch compensation payments and great rehab- 
ilitation centers, while keeping the jury trials, 
the 1951 result? As noted, Ohio maximum weekly 
disability benefits, C^30; Ontario benefits, ^57; 
and, as to a large-scale Ohio rehabilitation 
center,, the future holds the answer. Needed 
and over-due improvements have not been made, in 
the States, because a major part of the price has 
not been paid, and, at present, there is no 
apparent disposition to pay it on the part of the 
controlling pressure groups. V/hat we do get from 
pome sources is increasingly bitter criticism of 
the States' compensation laws, sometimes accomparLled 


by the threat of federalizing the workmen's 
compensation system. There are also demands for 
widening the scope of litigation. However, little 
is gained by condemning an existing situation 
unless one is willing to take the right steps, and 
all the steps, to correct it. The fact is that 
a legalistic workmen's compensation system is 
sterile. If, as certain labour leaders have said, 
"Ontario points the way," it ought to be apparent 
that the road to improvement is in the direction 
of less litigation, but we are now facing a well- 
organized crusade not only to increase workmen's 
compensation litigation on the present basis, but 
to open up the workmen's compensation lav/s to 
alternative tort remedies. The fountain-head of 
this crusade is in a Massachusetts law office. 

Of this movement the report of the 
Legislative Committee of the International Assoc- 
iation of Industrial Accident Boards and Commissions 
to the 1951 convention at Detroit, has said: 

" Threat of legalistic procedure and 
legal action . "" 

V/e concur with President Hill in the 
view so well stated in his annual report, 
that the American and Canadian workmen's 
compensation systems would indeed be in 
peril and the clock v/ould be turned back, 
if the proposals for legislation are 
successful that seem designed to increase 
controversy and litigation, to bring in to 
the workmen's compensation system the 
procedures and practices of court admini- 
stration, and thus to retard prompt 
payment of ascertainable claims." 

A labor union representative, addressing 
the 1951 convention of the International Association 
of Industrial Accident Boards and Commissions, said 
that workmen's compensation in xonerica has now 
reached the most critical point in its history. 
That statement, however, is not applicable to 
Canada. How did we reach this critical point? 

A brief historical excursion may throw some 

light on the subject. The situation may be sum- 
marized as follows: 

The American laws v/ere based upon European 
and English models. The states copied the worst 
rather than the best foreign legislation, so our 
compensation laws got a bad start, /ifter the 
compensation laws wore adopted, the public, sup- 
posing that to pass a law automatically solves the 
underlying problems; lost interest in workmen's 
compensation. (This is as if somebody supposed 
that merely passing a law wou±d stop the work of 
termites.) From there on the laws were mauled and 


messed up by pressure groups. Theresult Is a mass 
of legislation so complex, confused, and devious 
that the international association of workmen's 
compensation administrators has been compelled to 
consider calling a national conference to study the 
revision of the compensation laws. 

The starting blunder of our bill-drafting 
commissioners is easy to understand. They could 
read English but not German, so in the main, after 
they had sobered up from foreign hospitality, they 
copied large chunks of the English law, which was 
the worst in existence, vient home and collected 
their per diem. The English people themselves 
finally decided, after decades of sad experiences, 
that their compensation law was incurably defective, 
so they scrapped it, "lock, stock, and barrel." 
But some of the v;orst features of the old English 
law, which were transplanted into the state com- 
pensation acts, live and flourish in the laws of 
South Carolina and many other states. To repeat: 
we copied the defective legislation, and kept it; 
Great Britain scrapped it. The old English law 
was a low benefit law, with a part-time or star- 
vation wage computation provision, an "agreement" 
system, and full opportunity for court controversy 
"and/or" lump sum settlements... Have you had any 
acquaintance with these things? 

The English law also had an alternative 
provision for tort litigation, (you know I mean 
damage suits) which was reproduced in some of our 
early legislation,, but was soon scrapped.- As 
noted heretofore i a Boston lawyer is nov/ crusading 
to get this litigious gen re-enacted in our com- 
pensation laws. His reasons, of course, are purely 

The starting blunder — I said — of 
copying the worst of the existing legislation is 
understandable) but it was not necessary. The 
Province of Ontario also sent a representative 
abroad to study the foreign legislation. This 
man was an eminent chief justice. Sir ./illiam 
Ralph Meredith, v/ho might have been expected to 
look with a sympathetic eye upon courts and all 
their doing. But Sir William was shocked by what 
he saw of court adjudication of workmen's com- 
pensation. He concluded that the courts were 
utterly unsuitable for handling workmen's com- 
pensation cases. That conclusion became the 
cornerstone of the Ontario type of law- 
Sir William, by implication, recognized 
that workmen's compensation administration is a 
distinotprof essional specialty. The appropriate 
methods in this field are clinical not forensic. 


V/ho are these workmen's compensation claimants? 
One is dealing with the victiias of shook, needing 
suitable medical care and protection. Public 
controversy over their condition, in their pre- 
sence, aggravates the existing mental and physical 
pathology o During a compensation hearing, I have 
heard a doctor testify loudlyj in the presence of 
the claimant, as follows; "This man is totally 
disabled and will never bo able to work again; 
what is more, he may die scon." Any of you 
people who have attended compensation hearings 
know what the next medical 'Adtnoss testified. 
It was, of course, as foJicws: ''TAere is nothing 
the matter with this man except a congenital defect 
of the spine." You v;ill not run into any such 
brutal nonsense in the Canadian handling of claims. 
Such things are noi: only inhuman out terribly 
expensive. Such hearing.<3 are on ayGf,mbly-line 
for the mass-production of nGurosis^ The scienti- 
fic way of finding out whother an in;:ured person 
can ever work again in to put hiiu in an up-to-date 
rehabilitation center. 

An outstanding achievement of the Ontario 
plan of claims administration is the demonstration 
that the clinical rather than the forensic 
method of handling v:orK" injury cases has been found 
to be possible, practical, and desirable, in 
Canada. The achieveaient is not local, since in 
substance the Ontario plan has oeen adopted by 
all the provinces of Canad? having workmen's 
compensation lavjs- The experience has been much 
the same whether in Manitoba, rritlsh Columbia, 
or other provinces - 

Adam Bell, Ohair.-^an of the British 
Columbia V/orkmen's Compensaoion Board, has said 
that in the year 1950, "it v/as not necessary for 
the Board to conduct a full dress hearing where the 
employer and worionan appeared beforo them in more 
than five cases during the year." Ha added that 
even these were not the kind of contro^'ersial 
hearings found in the stages The concentrated 
British Columbia effort was in the clinical, not 
in the forensic fields Turing the year mentioned, 
Chairman Bell said, ''an average of 513 cases were 
handled each day" in the board's rehabilitation 


'■/hen facing the statement that the 
British Columbia board held only five full 
board hearings in the year 1950, someone 
may ask: ''But what would our compensation 
commission find to do if it held only five 
full board hearings in a year? ' This brings 
one to the explanation of why the impact of 
litigation is so costly, in the field of 
workmen's compensation. Under a controversial 
type of administration, 'the tail wags the 
dog'. Because the volume of controverted 
cases, while niomerically large, is relatively 
a very small percentage of the total volume 
of industrial injury cases. In some of our 
states, where the administration is staffed 
primarily for handling controversy, the 
workmen's compensation commissioners may 
know almost nothing about what happens to 
the vast majority of the compensation claimants. 

The point I am trying to make is this: 
if the time and strength of a compensation 
administration is not consumed by controversy, 
the administration can concentrate upon atten- 
tion to preventive and remedial services. Its 
supervisory activities will be comprehensive, 
instead of rudimentary. At best, workmen's 
compensation is a system of services, preventive 
and remedial, culminating in rehabilitation 
in the broad sense of that v;ord. (Vocational 
rehabilitation is only a fraction of that 
field of restorative service.) Expert and 
concerted attention to such services, when 
the informed co-operation of labour, manage- 
ment, and the medical professions has been 
enlisted, makes possible the payment of bigger 
benefits at lower costs. And that is my 
platform — much bigger benefits at less cost. 

If you cannot cut out litigation entirely, 
reduce it to a minimum, pay adequate benefits 
— and pay them promptly — and at the same 
time reduce the cost to industry. Some 
people in South Carolina have said that the 
compensation payments are too low. I agree 
with them. Other South Carolina people have 
said that the insurance cost is too high, 
I agree with these people also. To repeat, 


what I advocate is the type of law and 
administration that will pay top-notch 
benefits at bearable costs to industry. 
The worst industry is the one that is losing 
money. We shall not gain anything by 'killing 
the goose that lays the golden egg', although 
there seem to be lots of people in the United 
States these days who are going around with 
a hatchet, and if I were the goose I should 
be very uneasy. 

The program I advocate is, then, bigger 
benefits at less cost. South Carolina can 
accomplish this if you are willing to pay 
the price, which will include a drastic 
revision of the present compensation law. 
As a man born and raised in the South, I, 
for one, am not willing to admit that 
Northern people are any smarter than South- 
erners, or that South Carolina cannot do 
what Ontario and British Columbia have done. 

Americans live by an indomitable faith 
in progress. In the darkest days we are 
sustained by the hope that to-morrow can 
bring forth better things. Wherever an 
example has been plainly set, the sons and 
daughters of the pioneers are challenged to 
equal or excell it. The words, 'It can't 
be done' are not in your vocabulary. The 
people in this room have the power to move 
mountains, if their hearts are moved." 

(Page 1-14 follows.) 


As I said, Mr. Speaker, there are many- 
very Interesting comments in this -- and I propose 
to give this to Hansard — such comments as "our 
Canadian brothers are in the van of the Workmen's 
Compensation parade", "Ohio has a long way to run 
to catch up" and various comment" similar to those. 

In dealing with the Roach Report, Mr. 
Speaker, as I s^r'.d, last year we had examined the 
Roach Report very carefully ai-.d we had incorporated 
into the Workmen's Compensation Act many of the sug- 
gestions vi^ade by Mr. Justice Roacli which certainly 
did improve the Act but there were some things that 
we could net handle in the short time available. 
As you will recall, -..-e only had a few months from 
the time the Roach R^^port came in until the Legis- 
lature was m Session, but we have reviewed it 
further and we have this year included -- which this 
motion I am moving for second reading Incorporates -- 
the volunteer firemen whom we are now taking care of 
under the VJorkmen's Compensaticn Act, that is, 
through the municipalities, and persons commandeered 
to assist law enforcement officers, and I think it 
is well to reiterate that the Government feels that 
any one commandeered by a law enforcement officer, 
no matter where it may be, should not be considered 
the responsibility of the municipality wherein such 
Incident might occur, and that the Government should 
be responsible for the payment of any claim to which 
the man mj.ght be entitled. 


We are making It possible for the Workmen's 
Compensation Board to deem as employees of the Board 
for purposes of superannuation those engaged in 
the accident prevention field. Many men in this 
province have been In accident prevention work for 
a great many years and have had no superannuation 
or pension fund and we have incorporated them to 
give them the same as those who actually work for 
the Workmen's Compensation Board, but only for the 
purposes of paying the bill. We must have this Act 
amended to enable us to do that. 

Mr. Justice Roach recommended that the 
waiting period should be reduced from seven calendar 
days to four work days. This recommendation vjould 
have meant that the Board would be forced to cor- 
respond with each injured workman before considera- 
tion could be given to his claim for compensation, 
to ascertain whether the days lost were actual 
working days or not. 

In addition to this^ it would have meant 
that any number of employees who were injured a 
day or two before going on holidays, would have 
been forced to have been off work in excess of two 
weeks before they would have been entitled to even 
one day's compensation. At any rate, to make 
this short we decided we would incorporate into the 
Act, which we did last year, "five calendar days" 
which we think is a much greater improvement, and makes 
the administration of the Act much easier because 


a man could be injured at the end of the week and 
In five days he would be eligible for compensation, 

As far as the scales of compensation are 
concerned, after we had raised It to 75 per 
cent and Incorporated it into the Act -- three- 
quarters of a workman's average earnings up to a 
maximum of $4,000, which means total compensation 
in Ontario of $57-69 per week, which is tax free -• 
this became the highest scale of such compensation 
in the vjorld. 

(Take "J" follows) 


lAfe have dealt with permanent disability, 
partial or total, according to Mr. Justice Roach's 
recommendation. Fatal cases and pre-existing physical 
conditions have been dealt with even more generously 
than Mr. Justice Roach intimated should be done. We 
have broadened the Interpretation of industrial 
disease so that it takes care of a great many things 
not formerly given the protection of the Act. The 
amendment which we passed in this House in 194? 
and which is often referred to as "blanket covering" 
is, we feel, sufficiently broad to take care of any 
condition which could in any way contribute to any- 
thing arising out of or in the course one's employ- 
ment. The amendment is as follows: 

''Industrial diseases means any 
of the diseases mentioned in Schedule 
3 and any other disease peculiar to 
or characteristic of a particular 
Industrial process, trade or occu- 
pation. " 

Under this amendment we have excepted cases of lung 
cancer, which we have heard discussed in this 
Legislature, in the Gas Company, and, strange as 
it may seem, although we were led to believe that it 
was a very serious thing there, we have had only 
one case since the Act was amended. 

In cases of hernia, as I said formerly, our 
policy is to give the workman the benefit of the doubt. 

Hernia is one of those types of things where it 
applies, and cannot be got away from. If we had fol- 
lowed Mr. Justice Roach's recommendation, we would 
not have been able to pay a third of the cases we 
are presently paying in connection with hernia. My 


thinking in connection with hernia Is that while we 
cannot always tell v;here the man received the injury, 
he might have been digging in his garden or playing 
baseball, but one thing you may be sure of and that 
is that the man has it and that he Is not physically 
fit, that It Is bothering him and he is certainly 
not as fit a workman as he would otherwise be. I 
would like to point out that the attitude of em- 
ployers In our discussions on this question were 
in keeping with my own thoughts on the subject ^ that 
it is desirable that the man injured in this way, 
whether we can prove it was done In the course of 
his occupation or not, should be helped to regain his 
health. The result is that we are now paying 
almost eighty or eighty-five per cent of the cases 
of hernia reported to the Board, so we think that 
we do much better than Mr. Justice Roach's recom- 
mendaicion in regard to hernia. 

I heard before the last election that we 
were not paying for silicosis and should amend the 
Workmen's Compensation Act with that object in 
view. I think a fellow by the name of Thomson 
was saying something about that. We have, of 
course, been paying in cases of silicosis, Mr. 
Speaker, for years. Mining, of course, is very 
well taken care of, and we in the Department of 
Labour have three specialized people going about 
in industry where silicosis might be prevalent, 
endeavouring to get better housekeeping, 


clean-up methods and better ventilation in order to 
eliminate the possibility of silicosis. In any 
event, wherever silicosis is found it is com- 
pensable and the Board does pay. 

Double assessment was another thing that 
Mr. Justice Roach said should be given some con- 
sideration. However J it is one of those things 
that is very difficult to accomplish; that iS;, where 
workmen from Ontario go into another province and 
are assessed here and the employer in the other 
province assesses them and there is what is called 
"double assessment." Mr. Justice Roach intimates that 
we should, by agreement, co-operate with the other 
provinces and see if something can be agreed upon. We 
would be very happy to do that* We do not want to 
see anybody pay double assessment, but we have been 
told more than once, information off the record, 
by these other provinces, that their employers 
there feel that they want this double assessment 
because it gives them a slight edge when competing 
with Ontario employers for such workers ' services 
which are performed outside the province. 

That is a natural thing for those 
other people to think. They do not want our people 
going into Saskatchewan or Alberta or out to 
British Columbia, which they do, and doing work 
there. They want this little edge on them. 
Therefore, of course, we were not able to follow 
Mr. Justice Roach's recommendation in that regard. 


J -4 

Increased compensation In respect to plant 
accidents Is a matter that is beyond the powers of 
the Board. All through Mr. Justice Meredith's 
report and all through the operation of this 
Compensation Act^ throughout the year the entire 
sum of money Is paid by Industry, the Government 
contributes nothing;, the workman contributes 
nothing. In the formation of the Act and the 
development of it, the workman gave up something, 
the right to sue; and the employer gave his willing- 
ness to pay. Therefore it has always been based 
on an assessment of payroll and the employee pays 
nothing, the Government pays nothing. 

When you say: "We will make retroactive 
these amounts paid over a long period of years," to 
whom are you going to look for the assessment? A 
great many industries which were in business fifteen 
years ago are no longer In business; you cannot 
possibly assess people in business today to make 
them pay millions of dollars to increase the 
benefits of those people who were, unfortunately, 
injured when the rates of pay were lower. It is 
a case, Mr. Speaker, where we must decide whether 
to leave the Act alone in this respect and not 
move along with the times, or decide on 
a date when these new rates would become effective. 
I think we did the right thing; I feel sorry for 
many people possibly injured over a long period 
of years compensated at a low rate of income, but 


there is only one place that money could come from 
and we could not possibly, and I certainly would 
not recommend it In any form^ apply that to the 
present industry; it would have to come out of 
the Consolidated Revenue Fund of the Province, and 
that is a matter which is beyond my power as an 
officer of the Workmen's Compensation Board. 

There has been a question of the abolition 
of Schedule 2. Mr. Justice Roach's Report came 
out very strongly for no change in the Act in that 

Coming now to commutation of periodical 
payments for employees and acts of prevention, we 
have in accident prevention about all that is left 
in the Roach Report with which we have not dealt. 
Accident, prevention is a tremendous undertaking. 
We have in this province thousands of people volun- 
tarily studying, giving their time and effort to 
prevent accidents. They are working under the em- 
ployers of the province and the cost is met by 
the Workmen's Compensation Board, in that they sub- 
mit a budget and we pay for the activities and the 
expenses which they incur. In addition to that, 
Mr. Speaker, many, many of the employers of this 
Province are spending thousands and thousands of 
dollars of their own money in accident prevention 
work. I am very anxious that we do not disturb 
that until such time as we can say we have a better 
system, a system that will retain what we have but 


possibly add something to it, and I have discussed 
with organized labour the possibilities along that 
line and am still discussing it with them, and it 
will be some time before we are able to come up with 
anything. If at all. Again^ the new building comes 
into it. When we have the new building completed 
it is our intention to bring under the one roof all 
these accident prevention groups so they may all have 
their offices there and we will be in close liaison 
with them and can possibly have greater co-operation 
as between the Workmen's Compensation Board and the 
Accident Prevention Societies. Until that time 
arrives I am not prepared to make any recommendations 
to my Government as to what desirable changes could 
be made In connection with accident prevention. How- 
ever, I assure this Legislature through you, Mr. 
Speaker, that we are thinking about that, we are 
dealing with it and we are talking to people who 
might advise us, and we hope that if there is a way 
of improving it that eventually it will come about. 

I have taken some considerable time, Mr. 
Speaker, but I thought this story of compensation 
was one that merited a complete resume of its 
activities', and I now move second reading of Bill 
No. 80. 

MR. P. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Minister of Labour 
(Mr. Daley), what appeal has an injured worker from 
the decision of the Board? Is there any form of 


appeal at all? 

MR. DALEY: No, there Is no appeal. That Is 
the strength of the Act, actually, when you consider 
the cost of appeal and the fact that the result would 
be that you would never finalize aany claim. The 
Board's position is that they have the best medical 
people, as I have outlined, and I am sure it is 
administered in the most humane manner, they give the 
workman the benefit of the doubt and I think there is 
little if any doubt that he will get fair and Just 

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Speaker, 
I am very glad, as I am sure all hon. members are, 
that the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) took 
the time he did to present a rounded out picture of 
the work of the Workmen's Compensation Board. I 
think the time was well spent and I am sure that all 
of us listened very attentively and with great 
interest to what he had to say. What he spoke 
about affects the well-being of so many people that 
it certainly merits all the time that could be given 
to it by this House. 

However, Mr. Speaker, I cannot quite Join 
the hon. Minister in proclaiming our legislation as 
the best in the universe. The hon. Minister in 
his enthusiasm spoke first about its being the best 
in America, and then he said the best in the world, 
and finally spoke of it as being the best m the uni- 
verse . 

(Take '^K" follows) 


Though not prepared to go as far as the 
hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley), I am very glad to 
be able to say that our Corapensation Law is far ahead 
of many other areas in our country and the United States. 
I do not know whether there are better pieces of 
legislation, undoubtedly there are, but ours is certainly 
ahead of many and we are all very glad of that. 

I think also the administration of the Act 
by and large, is fairly good. I think credit is due to 
the staff and to all governments who, through the years, 
added structure upon structure to the edifice which is 
known now asi»Workmen ' s Compensation." 

The hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) read 
a letter which referred to the conditions of V/orkmen's 
Compensation in the middle thirties, that is a time when 
there was another Government in power, and I think that 
should be taken into account. Above everything, credit 
is due to the organized workers who have championed this 
legislation, who have fought for it, pressed for it, 
intervened on its behalf and to whom the major share 
of credit is due for what we have. I am glad the hon. 
Minister (Mr. Daley) recognizes that and included that 
in his prepared remarks. 

However, there is room and a need for greater 
improvement. This affects the life of so many people. ■ 
I want to touch on only a couple of these required 


improvements, there are many more, but I do not propose 
to deal with all of them. First, on the question, Mr. 
Speaker, of accident prevention. I am sorry to disagree 
fundamentally with the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) 
on this point, I am sorry also that he deviated from 
the Roach report on this question, V/e Vv'ill all agree 
that good as our compensation law may be, we should be 
primarily concerned with the prevention of accidents, so 
that vi/e may pay less because there will be fewer demands 
for compensation. That should be the first consideration, 
accident prevention. I submit it is an unreasonable 
setup v/e have at the present time, and I think the un- 
reasonableness of it Vk^as recognized by the Roach Commis- 
sion and recommendations made by Mr. Justice Roach have 
only now been accepted by the Government. What is 
the setup? The setup is, as the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) 
himself has stated, that the employers, set up and are 
in charge of the various accident prevention boards 
but the boards pay the cost of the work of such boards. 

That is a lopsided setup that I am sure will be 
recognized as such by everyone. No one is suggesting 
that employers are not concerned with the prevention 
of accidents , though there are some who could take more 
care than they are taking, but certainly the workers 
engaged in industry are as aware as any management 



of the problem and certainly are more concerned than 
any other segment of our industrial setup in the province 
in the prevention of accidents. It is the workers' 
lives, their limhs, that are involved. Labour has 
practically nothing to say about that, they are not 
part of the accident prevention setup. They may, through 
their plants and mangement channels, make certain 
recommendatios, but they are not involved in the active 
work of preventing accidents. Their experience is not 
made available. I think the least we can do is to give 
them every opportunity to play a major role in the work 
of preventing accidents, 

MR. A. J". CHILDS (IVentworth) : I think the 
hen, member (Mr, Salsberg) would find Labour plays a part 
in that, because they have members on every safety 
council. If he goes to a factory, he will find that out» 

J.m. SALSBERG: The hon. member (Mr, Childs) 
need not be cynical about it, I was in factories before 
he was born, and I have been in factories longer than he 
has played hockey. I was a member of the Union when I 
was in short pants and worked in a factory when I was 
thirteen years of age. Do not tell me to go to a 
factory, I was engaged in trade union work for years, 
Wci&t I am dealing with is the setup in the province for 
prevention of accidents, that is paid out of compensation 


funds and that, in my opinion, should be re-organized 
so that Labour would be the magor factor. in it, I do not 
want to take unnecessary time although the subject 
merits all of the time we can give it, but I have before 
me the brief presented to this Government only a few 
days ago by the Ontario Federation of Labour of the 
Canadian Congress of Labour. They devote a lot of space 
and time to this very question, accident prevention. 
Since the hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) found it advisable 
to put certain statements and reports on record, I want 
to take the opportunity of reading these three para- 
graphs in the brief which deal with this very question. 
Here is what the Ontario Federation of the Canadian Congress 
of Labour says: 

" Ylhen we met with you last year, we pointed 
to Mr. Justice Roach's references to the inadequacy 
of the present system of accident prevention 
associations . V/e reminded you that those 
associations are formed by industrial management 
with no representation of labour, they are not 
responsible to the IVorkmen's Compensation Board 
and are not required to publish information 
on their work. We insisted that this system 
is completely inadequate as well as unjust. 
V/e regret that no improvement has been made 
over the past year. 

The inadequacy of present methods is shown 
by the steady growth of accidents reported: 
in 1949 there were 179,894, in 1950, 182,144, 
and in 1951, 202,645. This trend will only be 



reversed by adequate labour representation on 
these accident prevention associations or in 
associations of our ov/n. We would like to see 
this Government implement the Roach recommendation 
that the accident prevention associations be 
made answerable to the V/orkraen's Compensation 

Lacking this latter improvement, v/e trust 
that the Government will agree to the desirabil- 
ity of having accident prevention associations 
representative of the employees established 
along lines similar to the present associations. 
This could easily be made possibly by amending 
Section 115 of the V/orkmen's Compensation Act 
through inserting in sub-section one, the words, 

'federation of trade unions as defined in 
the Labour Relations Act, 1950' after the 
word 'employer'." 

(Take "L" follows) 


That is the end of the presentation made by 
this very important labour body, and I suggest it is a 
very reasonable demand, and I read it simply to strengthen 
the argument I have advanced. I do appeal to the Govern- 
ment to change the set-up of the Accident Prevention Board 
in line with the suggestion of organized labour, and in 
accordance with a recommendation by Mr, Justice Roach, 

It is reasonable, and I repeat again, that 
while we are concerned with rates and with rehabilitation, 
we are, I am sure, primarily concerned with the prevention 
of accidents. 

One more point, Mr, Speaker, which deserves 
some attention, — 

HOIi. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
It is six o'clock. If the hon. member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) would care to move the adjournment of 
the debate, I have no disposition to hurry this important 
matter through. There may be other hon, members who will 
care to speak, and I think the Hon, Minister of Labour 
(Mr, Daley) will want to sum up after they have spoken. 
If the hon, member will adjourn the debate, that will 
give us ample opportunity for a full discussion, 

m, SALSBERG: Mr, Speaker, I move the adjourn- 
ment of the debate. 



Motion agreed to, 

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Fiinister) : Mr. 
Speaker, before moving the adjournment of the House, 
may I say that to-morrow we will proceed with the 
addresses in. reply to the Speech from the Throne. 
There are, I think, still a number of speakers. If 
we have time to-morrow, we might refer again to some 
of the Government Orders, or perhaps call this Order 

On Wednesday will be the wind-up of this 
debate. There are only two speakers on that occasion, 
the Hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Oliver) , and 

the Hon. Attorney-General (Mr. Porter). 

If the present order is not reached 
to-morrow, it will be proceeded with on Wednesday, 

I move the adjournment of the House, 

Motion agreed to. 

The House adjourned at 6.02 o'clock p.m. 



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