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All uses of this manuscript are covered by a 
legal agreement between the Regents of the University 
of California and Caroline S. Service, dated December 2, 

The manuscript is thereby made available for 
research purposes. Until January 1, 1988, users will 
require the written permission of the Director of 
The Bancroft Library. Prior to granting access to 
the work, the Director will notify Caroline S. Service, 
who will have thirty days in which to grant or deny 
access. Requests for access should be addressed to 
the Regional Oral History Office, 486 Library, and 
should include anticipated use of the work and 
identification of the user. 

No part of the manuscript may be quoted for 
publication without the written permission of the 
Director of The Bancroft Library of the University 
of California. Requests for permission to quote for 
publication should be addressed to the Regional Oral 
History Office, 486 Library, and should include 
identification of the specific passages to be quoted, 
anticipated use of the passages, and identification 
of the user. The legal agreement with Caroline S. 
Service requires that she be notified of the request 
and allowed thirty days in which to grant or deny 

Regional Oral History Office University of California 

The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California 

China Series 

John S. and Caroline Service Oral History Project 

Caroline Service 


Volume II 

An Interview Conducted by 
Rosemary Levenson 

Copy No. '_ 

1978 by The Regents of the University of California 

November 18, 1997 in Oakland, California. 

Mrs. Service was a native of Kansas City. She met her husband at Oberlin 
College. They were married in Haiphong, French Indo-China, in 1933. The Services 
served successively in Kunming, Beijing, and Shanghai. After World War li, they were 
posted in Wellington, New Delhi and Liverpool, from whence they retired in 1962. 

Mr. Service was a victim of "who lost China" hysteria, popularly attributed to 
Senator Joseph McCarthy which led to his dismissal from theForeign Service in 1951. 
After a unanimous Supreme Court decision in his favor, he won reinstatement in 1957. 
Mrs. Service recounted her participation and reaction to those events in an oral history 
and in the chapter "Partners in Catastrophe" in Jewell Fenzi's book MARRIED TO THE 
FOREIGN SERVICE. Mr. Service was awarded DACOR's Foreign Service Cup in 
1994 for distinguished achievement after retirement. An honor and recognition shared 
fully by Mrs. Service, which Mr. Service himself outlined in his moving remarks on that 
1994 Foreign Service Day. 

Mrs. Service is survived by her husband JOHN STEWART SERVICE, of 
Oakland, California; one daughter, Virginia McCormick of Chevy Chase, Maryland, two 
sons, Philip Service of Flagstaff, Arizona and Ambassador Robert Service of 
Washington, D.C.; six grandchildren and two great-grandchildren. 

Jack § Caroline Service 
Palace Museum 
October, 1971 

TABLE OF CONTENTS — Caroline Service 

INTRODUCTION by Lispenard Green i 

INTERVIEW HISTORY by Rosemary Levenson iii 

FOREWORD by Caroline Service vii 
ILLUSTRATIONS — frontispiece and following pages 20, 73, 142, and 197 

Family Background: German and German-Swiss 

Parents' Courtship, Further Education, and Marriage 3 
Caroline's Early Childhood 
Seven Grade Schools 

Hawaii and High Schools 10 

Family Religious Practices: Congregationalist 11 

Family Politics: Republican 13 

Family Finances 15 

Responsibilities of the Army Corps of Engineers 16 

How Oberlin College was Chosen: the Hemingway Connection 18 

Reflections on Changing School Ten Times 19 


Meets Jack Service 21 

Extracurricular Activities 24 

Studies History and English 25 

Spirit of the College 26 

Secretary of War Patrick Hurley's Open House, 1931 30 

Debut in Washington, D.C. 30 
Strayer's Business College and a Temporary Job on the Washington Post 34 

Engagement to Jack and the Foreign Service Examinations 34 

Marriage in Haiphong 36 

III CHINA: 1933-1940 40 

Early Married Life in Yunnanfu (Kunming) 40 

Getting Used to China 43 

Brushed by the Long March 46 

The Chiang Kai-sheks Show Solidarity with Lung Yun 48 

Roy Service's Death in Shanghai, 1935 49 

Jack's Foreign Service Commission: off to Peking 50 

Life in Peking 51 

Our Summer in the Western Hills 55 

The Marco Folo Incident 56 

Under Japanese Rule 59 
U.S. Government Families Evacuated, September, 1937, 

Japan and Berkeley 60 

Shanghai: Inside a Glass Bubble 65 

Third Evacuation for the Service Family: November, 1940 71 


Three Generations in Berkeley: 1940-1945 74 

Slow Mails from China 75 

Home Leaves: December, 1942; November, 1944 76 


"John Stewart Service" Arrested by the FBI, June 6, 1945 82 

The Families' Reaction: Confidence in Jack 84 

Erwin Griswold's Advice: "Get a Lawyer" 86 

Jack Bailed Out: The Family Goes East 86 

Friends Rally Round 88 

Max Bishop 90 

The Grand Jury Hearings: Jack Cleared Unanimously 90 

Posted to Japan: Caroline in Washington 92 

Hurley ' s Accusations : Who Lost China? 94 

Caroline's Reactions to the Senate Hearings 95 

Max Bishop Again 98 

Some Afterthoughts: Generals Groves, Patton, and Maxwell Taylor 98 

Caroline's Record Keeping: Correspondence with Lisa Green 100 

VI NEW ZEALAND: 1946-1948 103 

Good Times: New Zealand Posting 103 

Schools, and Housing, and Help 106 

Charge d' Affaires: A Surprise Curtsy 108 

A Crack in the Picture Window: CIA or FBI Snooping? 110 


Washington and Postings to India 112 

McCarthy Makes Frontal Attack on Service 114 

"Jack Would be in India before I got There" 114 

The Family Goes to New Delhi 116 

Woodstock School 118 

Indira Gandhi, Fellow Parent and Birdwatcher 119 

More about India 121 

Letters to Lisa Green in Stockholm 122 

Caroline's Father Dies 127 

Back to Washington via Europe 129 

"That Dreadful Man that Did all Kinds of Things" 130 


Caroline's Relationship with her Mother 132 

The Miasma in Washington 134 

The Jack and Dick Services Buy a House 135 

Ex-Senator Hiram Bingham's Loyalty Review Board 137 

The Firing 139 
Caroline Confronts ex-Senator Bingham: "Many People Have Had 

Grave Injustices Done to Them" 141 

Grace Boggs Service and Hiram Bingham, 1902 143 

Friends and Family Rally Round 144 

"This Endless Fight" 146 

Crank Calls and Job Offers 147 

Mr. Clement Wells and Sarco: Jack Learns the Steam Trap Business 149 

A Kinsmen's Trust Scholarship for Bob 150 
The American Legion Good Citizenship Award for Virginia, but no 

Foreign Service Scholarship 152 

"Politically Acheson and Truman Could not Save Jack" 153 

Relations with the Press: David Lawrence Confronted by Caroline 155 

IX TO THE SUPREME COURT, 1952-1957 158 

Discrimination in Housing: the Equitable Life Assurance Company 

Refuses to Rent to the Services: Kew Gardens 158 

A Visit from the FBI 160 

Jobs in an Art School and Discount Store 161 

Pollster for Louis Harris for Three Months 164 

One Child at Home: Two in Europe 165 

"Verbal Subpoena" from Cohn, September, 1953 166 

Confidence in the Legal System 169 

Sources of McCarthy's Popularity and Power 170 

Two Children at Oberlin 171 

The Legal Process 171 

Fund for Legal Expenses 173 

Service vs. Dulles. Reinstatement by the United States Supreme 

Court, June 17, 1957 174 

Clement Wells, the Sarco Stock, and the Improved Steam Trap 181 


Back to Washington 184 

Three Very Happy Years in Liverpool, 1959-1962 188 

Hawthorne House 189 

Light Consular Duties 191 

Virginia's Marriage and Bob's Career 194 

No Promotion for Jack 195 

Early Retirement 196 

Jack Gets an M.A. in Political Science, and a Job at the Center 

for Chinese Studies 198 

Amerasia Again 199 

Ping Pong Diplomacy 200 

To China, September 23, 1971 202 

Old Friends 204 

October 1 Banquet and Chou En-lai's Reception 205 

Travels in Sian and Yenan 209 

Kissinger Sees Jack 210 

Private Meeting with Chou En-lai 211 
To Hong Kong via Shanghai, Hangchow, and Canton 

The Press and Lin Piao 220 
Second China Trip, 1975 

Some Reflections and Recollections 227 


APPENDIX 1 — American Embassy List, Peking, December, 1935 234 

APPENDIX 2 — Letter to Mother, January 14, 1950 235 

APPENDIX 3 — Letter to Mother, January 7, 1952 237 

APPENDIX 4 — Letter to Lisa Green, June 17, 1957 240 

APPENDIX 5 — Accounts kept by Caroline Service on legal expenses 

and disbursements 242 

APPENDIX 6 — Christmas letter, 1971, from Jack and Caroline Service 244 

APPENDIX 7 — Article by Arnold Abrams, Seattle Times, 

November 17, 1971 247 

APPENDIX 8 — "Homage to China," Caroline Service, New York Times. 

November, 1975 248 

INDEX 249 


Caroline Service and I first met in Washington, on December 8, 1945. 
We shared the bond of being married to Foreign Service Officers, and of 
having lived in the Orient. My husband Marshall and her brother-in-law, 
Richard Service, had shared an apartment in 1941, preparing for the Foreign 
Service examinations. Richard was our host at this meeting, and Jack was 
still abroad. I felt especially drawn to Caroline, knowing something of 
what she had been through. After enduring a long wartime separation, Jack 
had returned the previous spring a hero. His reports from China as General 
Stilwell's political adviser, and especially his 1944 reports from the caves 
of Yenan where he came to know the leaders of the Long March, had earned him 
an unheard of double promotion. Then came the shock of his arrest June 6, 1945, 
in connection with the Amerasia case, and the birth of their last child on the 
day of Jack's appearance before the grand jury in August. 

I found that throughout all these traumas Caroline remained, then as now, 
spirited, warm, outgiving, and philosophical. I was eager to foster this new 
friendship, but we were assigned to our first overseas post in New Zealand, 
departing almost immediately. 

By wonderful coincidence, Jack was appointed our deputy chief of mission 
some six months later. Now our friendship had a real chance to develop. Her 
varied experiences as a Foreign Service wife, her wideranging mind, and her 
good common sense taught me a great deal in Wellington and has continued to 
do so in the more than thirty years of our correspondence. Our letter-writing 
started in the fall of 1947 with our transfer back to Washington. The more we 
wrote, the more we enjoyed it, with brisk discussions of world events and 
trends, as well as the ups and downs of family life. We started saving each 
other's letters in the early 50' s, and found this to be a more stimulating 
way to record our lives than to an unresponsive diary. 

The darkest period of Caroline's life was the dreadful accusation of 
Communist-sympathizing by the self-serving Senator Joseph McCarthy. The 
Services were en route to Jack's fine new post in India when he was ordered 
home to appear at the Senate hearings. While Caroline waited in New Delhi, 
I tried to help by attending all the hearings and writing her every detail. 
It was before one of those hearings that I saw Senator McCarthy come up to 
Jack (thinking they were alone in the room), and slapping him on the back, 
he said heartily: "Now, John, don't take any of this personally." Thus 
showing that he himself did not believe his charges. This self-servingness 
and Jack's innocence did not prevent Secretary Acheson from firing Jack, 
an action later declared illegal by the Supreme Court. 


During the difficult nearly six years until the full clearance by the 
Supreme Court, Caroline's letters became more philosophical, and often looked 
back to a happier past. 

In reading this memoir the great cost to the Service family of these 
unjust events will become apparent, as will the amazing strength of character 
and lack of bitterness that they showed. Courage, cheerfulness, and dramatic 
events, both happy and painful, have been distilled into richness of spirit. 

Lispenard Green 

Washington, D.C. 
November, 1977 



Caroline Schulz's marriage to John S. Service, Foreign Service clerk at 
Yunnanfu, took place in Haiphong in 1933. Twice evacuated from China during 
the next seven years, Caroline nevertheless expected to spend the next forty 
odd years between diplomatic posts in China and Washington. Although the 
Services did not know it at the time, the Amerasia case (1945), when John 
Stewart Service and five others were summarily arrested for alleged violations 
of the Espionage Act, marked the end of Jack Service's Foreign Service career 
as a China specialist. While Jack was unanimously cleared by the Grand Jury, 
the hysteria surrounding Amerasia foreshadowed the paranoia of the Cold War 
and the McCarthy period and marked Jack early as a likely victim in the witch 
hunt for the men "who lost China." 

As the criteria for loyalty clearances kept changing, Jack Service, like 
numerous other government employees, was repeatedly cleared by loyalty review 
boards. Between 1945 and 1951 he was posted to Japan, New Zealand, Washington, 
and India. Although Caroline and the children sailed on to India, Jack was 
recalled in mid-Pacific to be available to respond to McCarthy's changing 
attacks. Finally, in December, 1951, he was summarily dismissed from the 
State Department on grounds of "reasonable doubt of his loyalty." 

The Services went to live in New York where Jack worked for a manufacturer 
of steam traps and Caroline cared for the children and worked as a typist and 
factotum in a variety store. From the day of his dismissal, Jack started to 
work on his appeals, first to the White House, and then through the long, slow 
trial procedure. Vindication came when the Supreme Court ruled that Jack's 
dismissal had been illegal because it contravened the State Department's own 
rules, and a federal judge ordered his reinstatement in the Foreign Service. 

Caroline's view throughout was that "time and history will vindicate 
Jack." (p. 147) The quotation is from one of the many letters she wrote to 
Lisa Green, friend for over thirty years.* These letters, contemporary with 
the (mostly painful) events of the fifties in the Services' lives, set up a 
counterpoint with the reflections Caroline adds from her current viewpoint. 
One of the most frustrating aspects of the ordeal was her sense of 
helplessness — the inability to present the truth to the appropriate forum 

To be deposited in The Bancroft Library. 


and thereby to correct history for Jack and for the family. Twice Caroline 
interposed, confronting ex-Senator Hiram Bingham and columnist David Lawrence. 
Senator Bingham' s response was that "many people have had grave injustices 
done to them." (p. 141) Lawrence's response was little better. Any further 
action by Caroline was prohibited by Jack's lawyer. At a later point in the 
interview, Caroline when asked why she smiled while recounting a particularly 
unpleasant experience says, "I smile because I'm thinking, when I say I can't 
bear it, of course you do bear things. You bear whatever, finally, you have 
to bear." (p. 169) 

Jack's Foreign Service career ended as consul in Liverpool. Since 1962, 
the Services have lived in Berkeley. Jack took his M.A. degree in political 
science and then proceeded to become principal specialist at the University 
of California's Center for Chinese Studies. The Services, now on their 
third trip to China since 1971, can truly say that "time and history" have 
vindicated Jack. 

When the Services were asked if they would recount their memories, both 
were hesitant. Caroline finally consented because she could now speak in her 
own voice, no longer bound by the protocols of discretion that muzzle the 
wives of government employees at least as firmly as their husbands. Caroline 
Service's memoir forms a valuable supplement not only to Jack Service's but 
also to the Regional Oral History Office's distinguished series on women 
where the memoirist herself is the prime mover. 


Paul Casamajor of the University of California's Forestry Department 
proposed that the Regional Oral History Office of The Bancroft Library do a 
memoir of the Services. Mr. Casamajor had been a student colleague of Jack's 
forester brother, Robert, and had just read E.J. Kahn, Jr., The China Hands. 
Professors Chalmers A. Johnson and Frederic E. Wakeman, Jr., faculty advisers 
to this office's China Series, enthusiastically endorsed the project. The 
Center for Chinese Studies gave a small seed grant, and a letter to the 
Oberlin Alumni Magazine of July, 1976, brought additional donations from the 
Oberlin "family," Jack and Caroline's alma mater. Major funding was provided 
by a Rockefeller Foundation grant. 

The Interviews 

The interviewer and her late husband, Joseph R. Levenson, professor of 
Chinese history at the University of California, Berkeley, had known the 
Services since 1962 when Jack and Caroline returned to Berkeley. In fact, 

Jack had turned up as a student, somewhat to the chagrin of a professor 
teaching Chinese history who yet had never been to China. Nevertheless, 
a firm friendship had grown up between the couples. It was with delight 
that a new dimension was added to the relationship as the interviews 

At a preliminary luncheon Caroline and I laid out our basic strategy. 
The framework would be chronological, and since the transcripts were to be 
edited, Caroline was reminded that there would be opportunities to insert 
names, dates, or anecdotes, forgotten at one session, in their appropriate 
place in the manuscript. 

There were nine taping sessions of varying lengths from September 23, 
1976 to December 7, 1976. All but one were held in the Services' house in 
the Berkeley hills, either in the breakfast room with its view of the Golden 
Gate and the hummingbirds at their feeder, or if the western sun got too hot 
in the bedroom with its view of an enclosed patio. One session at the Levenson 
house to avoid the noise of workmen involved a noisy dog. The sessions were 
always punctuated by coffee and cookies; sometimes Jack, recuperating from a 
heart attack, would join us for lunch. 

Caroline kept closely to the agenda on which we had collaborated. 
Usually the sessions would start with addenda to the previous week's chapter, 
and then proceed with little need for prompting from the interviewer. 

Editing and Completion 

The transcript of the tapes was edited by the interviewer. Chapter 
headings and subheadings were often taken directly from Caroline's own 
vigorous prose. The final typescript was proofread by both interviewer and 
interviewee, and completed in June, 1978 while the Services were in Lhasa. 
Mrs. Lispenard Green, Caroline's longtime correspondent and friend, kindly 
agreed to write the introduction. The process of selecting illustrations 
and supplementary material was a fascinating one which involved poring over 
old scrapbooks and framed memorabilia, as well as Jack's color slides from 
the Services' 1970 's China trips. The evocative frontispiece of Jack and 
Caroline outside the Palace Museum, in a way, says it all. Americans were 
and are visitors in China. Now more Americans can visit than were able to 
for the last thirty years. Perhaps Jack and Caroline Service have had 
something to do with that. 

A half hour color videotape documentary of Jack and Caroline Service is 
planned and will be made by Rosemary Levenson with the Educational Television 
Office of the University of California, Berkeley. Old habits of discretion 
persist. Therefore, it is Caroline's decision that until 1988 her written 
permission be obtained by those wishing to read this memoir. 


As Caroline concludes (p. 230) in talking about the renaissance in the 
Services' lives since 1971, their return to China, the honorific luncheon at 
the Department of State honoring those Foreign Service officers who had 
suffered for their views on China, and an honorary degree at Oberlin College, 
"It's wonderful to still be alive and see it happen. . .We couldn't have 
imagined it would happen either. We thought, 'Well, all right, history will 
vindicate Jack.' But, he's already been vindicated. He doesn't have to wait 
for history." 

Rosemary Levenson 
Project Director 
China Series 

June 12, 1978 

Regional Oral History Office 

486 The Bancroft Library 

University of California at Berkeley 



When Jack and I were asked to do this oral history, I assumed that my 
part would be on the order of a footnote to Jack's experiences in China and 
during the McCarthy years. But what I have said has turned out, inevitably 
I think, to be my own story as well as a supplement to his. 

This has been a century of tumult; one of the most violent and murderous 
to afflict mankind. Jack and I were caught up in the cataclysmic events which 
have propelled the Chinese people into the modern world. This massive move 
ment of ancient China had inevitable repercussions in this country; repercussions 
which wrenched our life for many years. 

What happened to us cannot be compared, however, with the nationalistic, 
religious, and political fury which has destroyed so many of the world's 
people. We have gone through an ordeal, certainly. But we have had the twin 
supports of our family and our friends. And there can't help but be, in 
looking back, some acknowledgement of our own recuperative powers. 

Many friends have been mentioned in this memoir. 1 would also like to 
thank the many whom I have not been able to name. Friendship is one of the 
cores of my life. 

My thanks and great affection to Rosemary Levenson who has guided me 
through this oral history. There have been mutual laughter and tears; and a 
thoughtful consideration on her part which has eased this progress through 
"remembrance of things past." 

Caroline Schulz Service 

Berkeley , California 
September, 1977 


[Interview 1: September 23, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

Family Background; German and German-Swiss 

Levenson: I wondered whether you would start with your family background, 
perhaps with your father's background? 

C. Service: Yes, well my father's background was German — completely. My 
grandfather was born near Kassel, I think, and came to this 
country when he was a young man of about twenty-six. I've 
refreshed my memory on this. I'm pretty certain of this. He 
went first to Savannah, Georgia. He was born in 1841. After 
a year in Savannah and another year or so in Baltimore, he went 
to Wheeling, West Virginia. He was a shoemaker by profession, 
and he also had a shoe shop. He married Gertrude Niesz. Now, 
I'll spell that, N-i-e-s-z. She was German too, and she was 
born in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. 

They had seven children of whom my father was the second. 
They had four boys and three girls. Two of the girls died in 
infancy. The oldest boy became a bookkeeper. My father was the 
second child and the second son. He went into the army. Then 
there was a third son who became a housepainter, and a fourth son 
who also went into the army, and a third daughter who lived. She 
died at the age of ninety-five. 

My mother's family were German- Swiss and her maiden name was 
Muehleman. The spelling was later changed to Muhleman.* They came 
from near Berne, Switzerland, and they came as a family to the 
Ohio Valley. Several brothers emigrated. I believe in Switzerland 
they were ribbon manufacturers or worked in factories that made 


C. Service: They took up farming. This was in a place called Buckhill Bottom, 

[chuckle] Buckhill Bottom, just north of the small town of Hannibal, 
Ohio, which had maybe four hundred people in it. This little town 
was about thirty-six miles south of Wheeling. 

My father's family and my mother's family were all German 
Methodists. The church services were all conducted in German. 
My father's family used German as their home • language . My mother 
and father both spoke and understood German — my mother too because 
of the church, and because there were so many Germans who 
settled in this section all along the Ohio River right down to 
Cincinnati, St. Louis, all that section. 

My father was smart and he wanted to have an education 
which he did in the Wheeling public schools. Then he decided 
that he should go to one of the military academies. He tried 
first to go to Annapolis. He passed the exams but when he went 
for a physical he was told he had one shoulder blade lower than 
the other or higher, as the case might be. [Laughter] And so he 
was rejected. Then he decided he would try for West Point. In 
the meantime he went away to Ohio State for about a month but 
didn't like it and came home. So, people went away and came home 
in those days too. Then, he took the exam. There was a congress 
man, Mr. Atkinson, who had a place that was going to be vacant at 
West Point. My father took the exams and he came out top. He got 
the appointment to West Point. 

He went to Washington [D.C.] this time to have a physical 
exam. When he was there he said he went around and shook the 
hand of President Benjamin Harrison because apparently it was an 
"at home" day. In those days anybody could go to the White House 
and shake the president's hand. Isn't that something? 

Levenson : Yes . 

C. Service: He'd never been to Washington and that's why he asked if he 

couldn't have the physical exam there. He passed the exam, and 
this time there was nothing wrong with his shoulder blades. He 
went back to Wheeling and worked as a bookkeeper until it was 
time for him to go off to West Point. 

By the time he went to West Point he had very serious hives 
which would not heal, all over his legs. He also was supposed to 
have $100 to take to West Point. When he got to West Point they 
gave him a lot of examinations, as they did everybody, and they 
said that if the hives cleared up in three months they'd keep 
him. I don't know about the $100, but I believe my father had 
only $50 and the other $50 was deducted from his West Point pay. 

C. Service: The hives cleared up, West Point kept him, and my father 

graduated number one in his class. There were fifty-two in 
the class. He became a lieutenant in the [Army] Corps of 
Engineers and his whole career was in the Corps of Engineers 
in the United States Army. All of ray girlhood we were moving 
around, living mainly in different cities. We lived on only two 
army posts while I was growing up, but my father served with 
troops, in all, four times. 

Parents' Courtship. Further Education, and Marriage 

C. Service: During my father's furlough year he visited Hannibal, Ohio. 

One of my mother's uncles, Uncle Fritsche, was the minister of 
my father's church. Mother's two Fritsche cousins said, "You 
must come down to Hannibal with us because we have a dear little 
cousin whom we think you would like." My father was twenty and 
my mother was seventeen. They met that summer. The furlough 
summer at West Point comes between the sophomore and junior years. 

My mother and father met. They fell in love. They did not 
become engaged then but they were married five years later. From 
the time they met I do not think that they ever had any idea of 
marrying anybody else. Anyway, they were married two and a half 
years after Father graduated from West Point. 

He had to send money home to help buy his parents a house. 
My grandparents — none of them had any money. I mean they were 
really quite poor and they were perhaps a bit improvident. I 
don't know. But my father and his elder brother, Will, decided 
they must buy a home for their parents. So, before Father could 
get married he had to do this. 

How he did this out of a second lieutenant's pay I don't 
know! Houses must not have cost much. 

Then my father decided that my mother should have a little 
more education before they married, because she was really from 
a small town — had never been anyplace in the world. He, by this 
time, had been out in the world and he was meeting people in the 
army, and he wanted his wife to have a little more of a — a little 
more polish perhaps. So, he paid for my mother, with her parents' 
consent, to go one year to a place called National Park Seminary, 
which was a private girls' school outside of Washington. I think 
it was quite a well thought of place in those days. It has long 
since gone but it was there many years. I think it was still 
running up until the 1920' s. My mother spent a year there getting 
a little more education, a little more polish, becoming a little 
more sophisticated, let us say, and the school fees were paid for 
by my father. 

Levenson: That's very interesting. 
C. Service: I think it is too. 
Levenson: Was it a college? 

C. Service: It wasn't a college; it was a finishing school. It was really a 
finishing school. My mother wanted to learn, desperately. I 
mean my mother always wanted to learn. She always wanted to 
improve herself. My mother had a passion for improving herself, 
others too I might say! [Laughter] 

They were married. They were married or. October 12, 1898. 
That was Columbus Day. They were married in Hannibal and they 
were married in German. It may have been the English church, 
but the service was in German by Mother's Uncle Fritsche. 

Then, they crossed the Ohio River in a boat and they took the 
train to Wheeling and to New York and then they went by boat to 
Charleston [S.Ca.] which was where my father was stationed then. 
It was their first home. That's where my oldest sister was born. 
I have two older sisters. Gertrude was born in 1899, on Sullivan's 
Island in Charleston Harbor where the family went to keep cool in 

My second sister Katherine was born in Fort Wadsworth, on 
Staten Island in New York Harbor. Two islands. She was born on 
June 22, 1903. Father at that time was with the Engineer office 
in New York City. 

It was after that they went to Cuba. After the Spanish- American 
War the Americans took over the protectorship of Cuba, and they 
decided to put a navy base at Guantanamo Bay. They sent down my 
father, who was by that time a captain, to build a fort, build a 
blockhouse, do various things there. The navy was already coming 
in. My two older sisters were there and my mother. They were 
there from 1905 to 1907. That was my father's only foreign 
assignment. He didn't get abroad in the First World War which was 
a great disappointment to him. 

After Cuba my family went to Sioux City, Iowa. Then they 

were stationed in Kansas City, [Missouri] for five years, where 

my father was [U.S. Army] District Engineer. It was there that I 
was born. 

Caroline's Early Childhood 

C. Service: I was born on November 30, 1909. 

I want to add my full name which is Caroline Edward Schulz. 
I was named Edward for my father. Being the third girl I was a 
terrific disappointment, and so my parents gave me Edward as a 
middle name. Now, this was very influential, I think, in my life 
because I doted on my father and I think I was his favorite 
daughter. Katherine was closest to my mother. I just think 
this was because I was the youngest and because we were very 
sympathetic to one another — Having his name has always meant 
a great deal to me. I did drop it when I married, but I want 
to put in the fact that I was given his name and not some feminine 
variety of it, but his name.* 

By this time [1909] my father was a major. My mother and 
father's life in Kansas City was very good. They'd been married, 
what, eleven years by then. They had an assured position. My 
father was doing well in the army. They had a comfortable 
salary. But they always had to send money home to their parents. 
However, they had stepped up in the world much more than they had 
ever assumed that they were going to perhaps. They wanted to. 
They both had a great desire to excel and to better themselves. 
I would say this was a driving impulse in both of them. But, 
they never, never left their families behind. They always had 
their sisters and brothers visit them. Their parents visited 

In both families, my father's youngest brother, Wes, and my 
mother's brother, Harry, were the only other ones who really 
wanted an education. Wes went to West Point and became a 
brigadier-general. In my mother's family there were a younger 
sister and a younger brother. The sister never wanted to know 
anything much. Very jolly but never — But the brother, my 
Uncle Harry, went to Purdue. He majored in engineering. He was 
in the First World War and went to France. Then he got a job with 
the Ontario Hydroelectric Power Company in Ontario, Canada. He 
eventually became a Canadian citizen, married a Canadian woman, 
and lived in Toronto, Canada. He always wanted very much to study, 
to learn. 

My sister Katherine remembers that a number of names were put 
into a hat and I was persuaded to pull one out. I pulled out 
Edward! So if I'd pulled out another name I might not have had 
Edward for my middle name; but I prefer to think it was 
"inevitable." C.S. 

C. Service: Perhaps my parents both came from backgrounds, originally, in 
Europe of rather knowledgeable people who had little chance to 
improve themselves. I really can't say what they could have been. 
But they admired learning. They were interested in learning. 

After I was born we stayed in Kansas City till I was two 
and a half and then my father was transferred to New Orleans. 
We lived in an old house. We had lots of help, you know, a 
cook and a maid and a washwoman, a seamstress and a nurse for 
me. It all seems very strange. My mother took to it like a 
duck to water! We all did. [Laughter] We loved it. 

Levenson: Why not! 

C. Service: Yes, why not? Of course, because life was really very easy and 
very pleasant. We liked New Orleans very much and the Engineer 
Corps had a nice little yacht the "Tonti" which every so often 
we could also take a little ride on. We once took a trip through 
the bayous, on a bayou boat. My oldest sister by this time was 
a young lady and she went to one Mardi Gras. She went to at 
least one of the balls, because she was sixteen. I can remember 
a dress she wore, pale green gauze. 

It was really a very happy childhood when I think back to 
it. In 1916, my father was transferred to St. Paul, the other 
end of the Mississippi River. We were there in the spring of 
1917 when the United States entered the war. My father wanted 
very much to go overseas or do something, but he had a serious 
hernia operation which may have kept him — Anyway, he did not 
go overseas. We were in St. Paul less than a year when he was 
transferred to Deming, New Mexico. This was in the fall of 1917. 

In Deming our life changed. From living a kind of a pleasant, 
upper middle class life — we went to a place where there was no 
housing. So, a bungalow of sorts was built for us and we lived 
in that. It had beaverboard walls and so on. The dust sifted in. 
Deming was pretty much in the desert. Camp Cody, where my father 
was stationed in command of the 109th Engineers, was a big camp. 
We were there from September until the next April only. 

At this point my mother had, I suppose, what you could call 
a nervous breakdown. I don't know why. Maybe because life had 
shifted so. She was in her early forties then. Anyway she went 
to Coronado, [California] to a sanitarium. She was there for 
several months and eventually we girls went and stayed with her. 
My father was transferred to Vancouver Barracks, right across from 
Portland, [Oregon], Vancouver Barracks, Washington, and he went 
up there. 

C. Service: Finally, in June I think, my mother and my two sisters and I 

went to join him. We got off the train and we were told he was 
being sent to Camp Leach, Washington D.C.! 

This was less than two years after we left New Orleans. 
We'd been to St. Paul and Deming and Vancouver Barracks, 
Washington, and now Washington D.C. 

Levenson: And Coronado. 

C. Service: And what? And Coronado, yes, but that was because my mother was 
there. My father went on to Washington and we stayed that summer 
with my Aunt Louise, my mother's sister, in a place called 
Lake Mills, Iowa. 

I had a very good time. I always had a good time because 
I was the youngest and people didn't make me do very much. Oh, 
I'd help make the beds and dry the dishes. But, you know, there 
were always people to play with. I remember this. There were 
always lots of people around to have fun with. 

We arrived in Washington in September of 1918. I remember 
this very well. It was just before my ninth birthday. We 
walked out of Union Station, and there was the Capitol! — the 
Capitol dome. It looked just as it does today. We lived in a 
couple of rooms in a house on Rhode Island Avenue. That was 
all my father was able to get because Washington was just jammed 
with people. Father lived at Camp Leach which was out where 
American University is today. But then it was an army camp. 

By this time Gertrude had gone to Simmons College in Boston. 
Katherine and Mother and I lived in this house on Rhode Island 
Avenue. We couldn't have lived there very long because pretty 
soon we were living on Park Road just off Sixteenth Street. We 
were living in a third floor room, the three of us, my mother 
and Katherine and I. We were making our breakfast over one of 
these little burners that's got some sort of liquid heat in it. 

Levenson: Oh, Sterno? 

C. Service: Yes. That's how we got breakfast. What we did for lunch I 

do not know. But we ate our dinner every night at an underground 
restaurant down the street. When I say it was "underground" it 
was in the basement. My father spent his time at Camp Leach. 
Goodness knows when he came home how they managed to get any 
privacy because Katherine and I were always there. Katherine 
and I slept in a double bed and Mother slept on a cot. Then 
when Gertrude came home at Christmas, they were able to get 
another room on the third floor. 

Levenson: How did you get on with your sisters? There was quite an age 

C. Service: Yes. With my second sister — I'm very close to her. She did u 
great deal for me when I was growing up. My oldest sister was 
more remote. We've always been good friends. We've never had 
any family feuds or anything, but I am much closer to Katherine 
than to Gertrude. Katherine and Gertrude are quite close, but 
Katherine was the one who did things for me, who took care of 
me a lot. She was terribly good to me. She lives right here 
in Berkeley now and we've always been close. We're very unlike, 
but we ' re very good friends . 

Seven Grade Schools 

C. Service: When we lived on Rhode Island Avenue I had gone to a public 

school, called the Fort or Force School. Anyway, I was in third 
grade in Deming, but the people in Washington didn't want to 
think I was. They put me in first grade. Now, I was eight 
years old, almost nine, and they put me in first grade. This 
really incensed me. I can remember how mad I was. I think 
they wanted to see if I could read. I don't know. Well, the 
next day I think I was put up to the second grade and pretty 
soon I was in the third grade. 

Levenson: Which was where you belonged. 

C. Service: Yes, right. So, that didn't last very long but it made me mad 
at the time. Then, when we moved to Park Road I had to change 
schools. So, I went to something called the Powell School. It 
may still be there for all I know. The other school disappeared. 
It was on Massachusetts Avenue. I think during the Second World 
War it was a place where you got ration books or something of 
that sort. 

At the Powell School I don't know what grade I was in, but 
everybody decided I wasn't where I should be. So, I was given 
a little tutoring and I think I may have been put in grade 
three-B about this time. I was nine years old. In January 
we were transferred to Milwaukee. Now, we'd only been in 
Washington since September. But in January my father was made 
District Engineer in Milwaukee. We moved to Milwaukee and 
somehow or other I was inserted into the fourth grade where I 
then belonged. [Laughter] 

April ,?, 1919. Caroline -. C?hnl7.. 

The *ly. 

The Fly is a very dr>n.^eru3 insect. It rlso s -n two little 
pads on its feet which teke tvo the dirt and on the out side of 
the jfc-.i here are two clr.v;s so the fly crn go on suo th things 
or fuff things. lou snood not ierve nrnor around "because il... 
fly ^ays her eggs in it so it is "best to "faery the manor write 
away. If a man has tiMrkyilosis and spits on the street the 
flys come around and get this on their feet and then go to sorae- 
"bodys house and walk on the food. Hie person v.'ho ents that food 
will porboly get ti"birkyilcsis. When the fly lays her eggs they h 
hach in one day. 

In fourteen days the fly is a full gron fly carl is ready to 
lay eggs so you see how many flys there pre. There is no ne?/I 
of putting skearns on your proch "because you cp.n ~et rid of the 
fly "by "faery the noner v/rite av;ay and keeping every- thing neat. 

The fly has four eyes two very lr,rge eyes "lid two very sr.all 
eyes. Hie fly also has six legs. Vfhere every t v c fly walks it 
lenses "backtirey and so if a fly walk over yoxir for-1 it lerr-Bc 
"bo.ckterey. If you e?t thr.t food you v:ill porboly ~3t "backterey 
and then you v;ill Toro"bly give the people hr.cktere^'. The fly 
ec.o3 only sticky things like merlr.sis aiid' other things like tha.t. 
If the fly eats to r.xxch it vrill through it up. Of corse it would 
not "be nice to have a fly through up on your food. 

And I no you. v/ould not like to eat the food r.fter the fly has 
throughen up on it I do not think I v/ould like it. 

It is very unhelful to eat what the fly had v:r.lked and throung 
up on. So you see it is "best to get rit of the fly v/rite away. 
1'any children get sick in the summer on acount of the fly. 

You can make a fly trap. So I wish you and every "body would 
get rid of the fly ard I will try to help get rid of the fly ?nd 
I hope you will to. 


/i -^ *^— v_ &w -*' ^f /^L^^f^^OL^/ drs / 

* /i /o ^*" ' — 

l/^^^K ^-^^ ' /? /?. 

? / 

C. Service: The teacher was a woman named Miss Strong. She was a New Englander 
and she was a fine teacher. She made all the girls do a little 
manual training and she made all the boys learn how to sew 
because she said boys should know how to put buttons on their 
clothes. She was a character, a disciplinarian, but very, very 
good. I remember her well and I liked her. 

In Milwaukee we stayed — let's see, January of 1919. We 
stayed there until September, 1920. So, we had a year and a 
half in Milwaukee, part of fourth grade for me and all of the 
fifth. My sister Katherine went to Milwaukee Downer Seminary 
and graduated from high school and Gertrude continued at Simmons. 
In Milwaukee we lived in an apartment, a regular apartment. 
[Laughter] Into this apartment we squeezed a maid named Alma. 
How we got a maid or what she did there I don't know. But, 
anyway, we had a maid again. So, life was sort of returning to 
the New Orleans pattern, except in a very small way. 

Then in the summer of 1920, my father was transferred to 
Seattle to be — I don't know whether it was Division Engineer or 
District Engineer — whatever it was out in Seattle. He was 
District Engineer — there are districts and divisions. Gertrude 
was going to go with us to Seattle. She was going to change 
from Simmons to the University of Washington. 

My mother decided this was a chance to improve us a bit — we 
would go out on the Canadian Pacific, which we did. From 
Milwaukee we went to St. Paul and then across Canada on the 
Canadian Pacific. We had a day at Banff and a day at Lake Louise. 
I thought they were both marvelous. At Banff I saw the first 
woman I'd ever seen smoking. I remember it. I saw this woman 
smoking in the hotel dining room at Banff. Couldn't believe it. 
I pointed this out in a loud voice. [Laughter] 

Then we were in Seattle three years and I had sixth, seventh, 
and eighth grades in one school. But, by the time I'd graduated 
from grade school I had gone to seven grade schools. I started 
school in New Orleans — New Orleans, St. Paul, Deming, two in 
Washington D.C., in Milwaukee, and Seattle. Is that seven? 

Levenson: Yes. That's a lot. 

C. Service: I graduated from grade school in Seattle. Seattle was fine. 
We loved it. A delightful, pleasant life for my parents. We 
had a house there again and also a maid, a maid from Luxembourg. 
Her name was Lisa. I remember her well because it was my first 
really close contact with a Catholic and a Catholic of, let us 
say, limited background. She was sure we were all going to hell 
because we were Protestants. She used to tell me this. She'd 
say, "You're all going to go to hell." 


Levenson: Did it upset you? 

C. Service: No, because I didn't believe her. Oh no, I knew she was wrong 
because my family were very good, religious people. No, I 
couldn't believe this. I don't know why. I thought maybe she 
was joking. But she'd tell me this. It made a big impression, 
the fact that she should think that this would happen to us. 
I'm sure I must have tried to tell her, "No, no, the other way 
around." [Laughter] 

Hawaii and High Schools 

C. Service: When I was thirteen and a half we moved to Hawaii and my father 
was in command of the Third Engineers at Schofield Barracks. 
This was his first duty with troops except for the war years. 
Oh, I loved Schofield Barracks. I loved Hawaii. They had a 
little high school on post of about — oh I suppose there may 
have been thirty to forty high school students. A few students 
went to Honolulu, to Punahou and to places of that sort. But 
most of us who lived out there just went on the post. The 
teachers were army wives. It was a good high school, I had a 
lovely time, and I enjoyed it. I, of course, was beginning to 
be interested in boys at this point. We went to school only 
from about 7:45 in the morning till 11:30. That was the school 

Levenson: How marvelous. 

C. Service: It was wonderful! The rest of the day was free. We had to study 
but • there was always tennis and there was horseback riding and 
there was swimming. It was just fun. We had a lot of fun. We 
stayed there until February, 1926. By this time I was half way 
through my junior year. Then my father was transferred to Chicago 
to be District Engineer in Chicago. 

We went to Oak Park, Illinois, in 1926. I had my senior 
year in high school in the Oak Park and River Forest Township 
High School. And without a doubt it was the most miserable year 
of my life. I just hated it because I did not know anybody. The 
high school was enormous! I had no friends. Nobody asked me out. 
I felt terrible! I spent a lot of time weeping. And my poor 
mother — 

Levenson: When you say enormous what do you mean? 

C. Service: Enormous, about three thousand students in this high school. 

From a high school of about thirty students — Oh yes, between 


C. Service: Schofield and Oak Park I spent three months in the high school 
in Williams town, West Virginia, which was like nothing else I 
ever went to. Nobody there studied at all. 

Levenson: What did they do? 

C. Service: Well, they just frolicked around because most of them weren't 

going on to college. It was a small high school in a small town. 
Today I'm sure it's quite different. We were across the Ohio 
River from Marietta, Ohio. We were always having picnics and 
weiner roasts. The students did things like plays and they had 
good voices. Most of them played the piano or sang. They were 
very musical people. 

There were two churches in town: a Presbyterian and a 
Methodist. Everybody went to one or the other of them. I don't 
think there was anybody of any other stripe or variety, religious 
stripe or variety in the place. There may have been a small 
Catholic church. But anyway, you either went to the Epworth 
League, which was Methodist, or you went to the Presbyterian one. 
I went to the Methodist one, mostly for fun. We always had a good 
time. There was always a group of kids and we went rollicking 
around. By this time some of us drove and we'd go driving around. 
The summer was lovely. It was a carefree kind of thing, but 
nobody studied very hard. [Laughter] 

Oak Park was a different kettle of fish. At Oak Park I 
probably worked harder than I ever would work even in college, 
because although Schofield was good I didn't have the background 
in some things. I did like to study and I wanted to achieve 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 

Family Religious Practices; Congregationalist 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

Could I stop you here for a minute and ask you some questions? 
Yes, surely. 

You spoke earlier about your parents' religious background, 
was your religious background? 


Oh. By this time my family had become Congregationalist. They 
were brought up as Methodists, but in Kansas City they had gone 
to a Congregationalist church. This is where they'd met Tyler 
Hemingway and his wife. They remained Congregationalists then 


C. Service: for the rest of their lives. I was christened in the 

Congregational church in Kansas City with some water from 
the Jordan River, believe it or not, that somebody had brought 
home in a bottle. [Laughter] So, I was brought up as a 
Congregationalist . My own religious views are practically 
nonexistent today, but I went to Sunday school always. We 
always went to church. My father and my mother both were 
believers in God and in an afterworld, particularly my father. 
I'm not so sure about my mother. He was more religious than 
my mother. So, we always had a church affiliation. I joined 
a church in Seattle. It was a Congregational one. The one here 
in Berkeley is where my mother's funeral service was, the First 
Congregational Church over on Dana and Durant. Does that answer 

Levenson: I think so. It sounded as though you took it lightly and 
agreeably. It wasn't a weighty thing. 

C. Service: No, it wasn't. When I was in high school in Oak Park I went 

to the Congregational church young people's meetings on Sunday 
and stood around hoping somebody would pay attention to me. 
Nobody did! [Laughter] 

As I said, my family was quite religious, but in an 
optimistic, liberal Protestant way of being religious. Some 
where between high school and college I became unreligious. I'm 
an unreligious person I would say in the sense that — When I 
read somebody's a devout this or a devout that I say to myself, 
"I'm a devout nonbeliever." Why must people just be devout in 
those other ways? Obviously religion does help many, many people, 
and many people need a traditional religion. Many people could 
not live without a deep and abiding faith in a god or a higher 
being who is guiding them or watching over them. But, I have 
never had this feeling since I was seventeen or eighteen years 
old I'd say. 

Nobody in my family ever talked about — Well, Mother would say 
she'd pray for things. That is true. My father to his dying 
day believed in a future life. But, there was no feeling that 
religion was going to save us, maybe because we didn't need it. 
Our life was quite good. I don't know. I can't explain it, 
except for me it has never been an important factor in my life. 
Religion has never helped me through any of the crises of my life. 
My father loved to play and he loved to sing hymns, but they were 
all the kind of things such as "Shall we gather at the River?" 
You don't know these — 

Levenson: Of course I do! 


C. Service: Do you? "Shall we gather at the River?" and "Whosoever will, 
will come." I think that was one. He loved the Christmas 

Now, Christmas was very meaningful in our family. My 
father loved the Christmas carols. He sang most of them in 
German. We always had a wonderful Christmas. He played a lot. 
My sisters and I would get dressed and then Father would play 
the piano and we'd all come into the living room where the 
presents were, marching in tune to the Christmas hymns that 
Father would play. 

Family Politics; Republican 

Levenson: What about politics? What were your parents? 

C. Service: Oh, my family were staunch Republicans! Staunch Republicans! 

But, during her last years my mother was a registered Democrat. 
McCarthy and Nixon made her change! In fact my mother and father 
became engaged in 1896 when my father went back to Wheeling to 
vote for McKinley, and the Republican party paid his way from 
Willets Point, N.Y., back to Wheeling so he would vote for 
McKinley. You couldn't get absentee ballots. 

Levenson: That's buying votes, isn't it? 

C. Service: Well, I don't know whether it is or not, but don't you think 
that's something? 

Levenson: I do indeed. 

C. Service: My father would have voted for McKinley anyway no matter what. 
It wasn't buying the vote in that sense, but they said they'd 
pay his way back if he would come back. So, my father must 
have said, "Hurray." This was his chance and he got on the train 
and went and he voted for McKinley and he went down the river to 
Hannibal and took a little diamond ring that he'd gotten at 
Tiffany's — it was minute but it came from Tiffany's — and he and 
my mother became engaged. I think it was something like 
November 3 or whatever the day was. Isn't that astonishing? 

Levenson: It certainly is. 

C. Service: Do you think that's proper? I doubt it. 

Levenson: It wouldn't be considered proper now. 


C. Service: No, no, it would be considered terrible. 

Levenson: I wonder how he applied for the money. Did they approach him? 

C. Service: Oh, they approached him. I don't think he applied for it at all, 
but they wanted him to vote. I guess, well maybe they said, "If 
we pay your way back will you vote?" I have no idea. 

Levenson: That's fascinating. 

C. Service: I think it is too. He would say how the Republican party wanted 
him to come back and vote. I suppose he thought of it as maybe 
today you'd think somebody would drive you to the polls. Anyway,^ 
McKinley got elected. My family were always Republicans, always. 

Levenson: I suppose he really couldn't be active because he was in the 

C. Service: No, he couldn't. The thing is he could never vote away from 
Wheeling. I think it was the only time he voted while in the 
army. He graduated from West Point in 1895. I don't suppose 
he ever again had anyplace he could vote until he retired. 

[tape off] 

C. Service: He voted here in California but, except for that one time, he 
never voted anyplace else he lived. 

Levenson: How did your mother feel about the suffragette movement? 

C. Service: My mother was very ardent. She was also a Temperance Union 

type. She joined the W[omen's] Cfhristian] T[emperance] U[nion]. 
My mother was a feminist. She didn't call herself that because 
she didn't know the word but she was that. 

Levenson: How did that go down in the regular army? 

C. Service: Well, you see, I don't think this ever entered into her army 

life. I'm thinking more of her personal feelings about things. 
No, it didn't enter into her army life, but my mother was a 
forceful woman and she always felt women should have the vote. 
She didn't believe in the double standard either. I mean she 
always felt that men should not criticize women for doing what 

*I have checked this story with my sister Katherine. She does 
not recall it at all. Still I will leave it in. C.S. 


C. Service: they themselves did. Now, my mother did not smoke or drink or 
anything of that sort, but she always was a great believer in 
women's rights and that men and women should be equal. Women's 
equality is what she would call it. 

Levenson: Did she work for women's votes, for the suffrage movement? 

C. Service: 


C. Service; 

No. No, I 'm sure she didn't. Well, in New Orleans there 
wasn't any chance. And then my mother didn't really get over 
the nervous breakdown she had in 1918 for many years. I wasn't 
aware of it at the time, but I realize looking back she was 
always going to bed with sick headaches. She really wasn't 
awfully well. She lay down a great deal and her head ached a 
lot. Who knows what her real problems were? I have no idea. 
So, she didn't do anything outside the home. She never worked 
and she wasn't an activist, but she had these beliefs which 
were very strong. Perhaps she was frustrated. 

Did her poor health — 
your childhood. 

It doesn't sound as though it depressed 

No, I don't think it made much impression on me. I think if it 
affected anybody it affected my oldest sister who is ten years 
older than I. I think it may have bothered her a lot because 
she was a young lady and there were things she wanted and couldn't 

Family Finances 

C. Service: Although my family had risen in the world there was always a 

money pinch. My father had no money except his salary, and they 
always had to be sending money to their parents, and they always 
had to help out my Aunt Louise or my Aunt Huldah. There were 
always calls on their money besides their three daughters. 

This I can remember, the hours they spent going over budgets 
and trying to figure out really literally whether they could 
afford to get Gertrude a dress to go to a dance. There would be 
agonizing arguments over things of this sort. Over the price of 
curtain material! So, money was always a problem. 

One of the reasons Gertrude had to leave. Simmons and go to 
the University of Washington was that my father simply couldn't 
afford to pay for a private college in Boston and pay the rail 
road fare back and forth. So, she had to transfer. She didn't 
want to. Eventually she liked it, and she lived in Seattle fifty 
years and married there. But, it was basically a financial problem. 


C. Service: By the time I went to college, Gertrude was married to 

William A. Hausman, and Katherine was working as a librarian. 
So, they could afford to send me to Oberlin without really too 
much stress and strain. They had no other children then to 
worry about. But, money was always a problem for them. 

We were a very close family. I think my parents were 
extremely — I've been re-reading some letters that my mother 
wrote to my father, oh long ago when I was a child. There was 
a great desire to do well by their children and to take care of 
"the girls" and see that things went well during all these moves; 
they hoped "the girls" would be happy in school, and noted that 
Katherine or Gertrude or Caroline needed certain things. Letters 
bring it out even more than we ever were aware of at the time. 
They didn't talk about this, but I'm sure my sisters and I felt it, 

Levenson: Felt cherished. 

C. Service: Yes, very, very cherished. Yes, always. My father and mother 
argued a lot. They argued over money more than anything. My 
mother wanted to spend some and my father wanted to save it. 
It was that type of thing. But, we were very much loved 
and — cherished is the word. 

Responsibilities of the Army Corps of Engineers 

Levenson: You mentioned when you were talking about your father's career 

that only a few times was he in contact with troops. I wondered 
what his primary responsibilities were the rest of his career. 

C. Service: River and harbor work. The Army Corps of Engineers has to do 
with dams, river, harbors, and so on. This is all under the 
Army Engineers. When my father was the 9th corps area engineer 
at the Presidio, the Golden Gate Bridge was being built. Well 
now, all the part that goes through the Presidio had to be 
approved by the army and I suppose the rest of the bridge too 
because all waterways are under the government. 

All the waterways you see, all the bridges, all the canals, 
all the rivers, all the harbors, everything is under the Army 
Engineers. This is basically what all Army Engineers do. They 
plan and approve. They hire civilian people to do the work, but 
they have to approve of everything. It has to go through their 
office. Now, there's often a lot of criticism about Army Engineers 
because they want more dams or they want more canals — something, 
you see. Some of this is pork barrel stuff that congressmen want. 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 

But, I've never heard of an army engineer's being venal. I've 
never heard of any case of scandal — and it would certainly be 
made public — where anybody ever accepted a bribe or where anybody 
ever became rich. No army engineer that I know has ever betrayed 
his trust. Now, they may not always have done what everybody 
thought they should or should not do, especially, now, the 
environmentalists. But, that's a different thing entirely. 

So, I'm very proud of the Army Corps of Engineers for its 
fine record. The men always were chosen from the top of the 
class at West Point. Very few of them ever made any great 
military record because they were not militarily inclined. 
[General Douglas A.] MacArthur was an exception to this, and 
there have been other exceptions. MacArthur graduated first 
in his class and went into the Engineer Corps, and he had a 
brilliant military career. But, most people who became engineers 
were not particularly interested in the military side. They were 
rarely with troops except, let us say, during a war. 

Father was with troops during the First World War and then 
at Schofield Barracks. Then, in the late 20 's he was sent to 
Fort Humphreys, Virginia, (now Fort Belvoir) . This was the 
Engineer School. That was a very good job and Father really 
enjoyed that, being commandant there. 

He wasn't at all a military type to see either, to look at. 
He was very short. Barely got in West Point. Didn't get in 
Annapolis. [Chuckle] 

Did he talk about his work at home much? 

No, but he often worked on things at home. He was often scribbling. 
He spent a lot of time reading things, working on things, but he 
didn't talk about it much, perhaps because there were no boys in 
the home . 

He and my mother were very socially inclined. They loved 
to go out. and they liked to play bridge. They liked parties. 
The whole family really liked things of this sort. 

My father, strangely enough, was quite musical. When I 
say strangely enough it's because the rest of us aren't. My 
father played the piano, he played the violin, he loved to sing, 
and he was quite musical. He did a little dabbling in primitive 
types of art. He liked to paint and draw, but it was really 
pretty primitive stuff. He had a lot of little talents. My 
father was quite talented in a small way. He didn't have as 
much drive as my mother. He was rather more content with things. 
He would have liked to be a brigadier-general if somebody made 
him one, but it wasn't the end and purpose of his life. 


How Oberlin College was Chosen; the Hemingway Connection 

Levenson: Earlier, you said you wanted to achieve something, and had 
to go to college right after high school. Was this an 
assumption — 

C. Service: It was an assumption that all of us children would go to 

college. None of us had any other idea. My two older sisters 
are graduates of the University of Washington. My parents 
put a great deal of emphasis on education. My mother had not 
had really a good higher education, but she always was learning. 
My father had had a good one by going to West Point. But, educa 
tion to them was vital and it was never assumed that because we 
were girls we would not go to college. I do not think any of us 
three girls ever thought we wouldn't go. None of us wanted to 
do anything else. We had no talents in the sense of being artistic, 
or musical, or having a drive to do something else. So, college 
was the natural thing for us to do. 

So, they looked around for a college for me, my parents did. 
This was the day also when parents just decided some of these 
things. "You will go to Oberlin," said my father. And why would 
I go to Oberlin? Well, partly because my family knew the Hemingway 

Levenson: Oh really? 

C. Service: The Hemingways lived in Oak Park, Illinois, and that's where we 
lived in 1926-27. Where I was born, in Kansas City, my father 
and mother had been devoted and close friends of Ernest 
Hemingway's Uncle Tyler Hemingway and his wife Arabell. This 
was a friendship which they had always kept up. When my parents 
moved to Oak Park, Ernest Hemingway's grandfather was still 
living; his Aunt Grace, who was a maiden lady, lived with her 
father and took care of him. 

My father had gone to call. We met all the Hemingways 
around. We met Ernest's parents and his uncle and aunt. The 
Hemingways had a great Oberlin connection. Many of them had 
gone there. 

My father began to think of Oberlin and he wrote to Arabell 
Hemingway. By this time Tyler had died and she had remarried. 
He wrote to her and said, "Would you recommend Caroline?" She 
said of course she would. My father just decided this was a 
good place because he knew people who had gone there, particularly 
the Tyler Hemingways. Also, I think the editor of the Kansas City 
Star, a man named Henry Haskell, had gone to Oberlin. My father 
had known him. My father thought Oberlin a very fine institution. 


C. Service: I was accepted at Oberlin. I had good marks and I was accepted 
at Oberlin. In the fall of 1927, I went away to college. I 
went from Chicago, from Oak Park, to Oberlin. 

Levenson: Did you ever meet Ernest Hemingway? 

C. Service: No, I did not. I never met Ernest Hemingway. I knew a number of 
Ernest's cousins. Hemingway Hines was a classmate at Oberlin and 
a very good friend. He was Ernest's first cousin. There were 
two of his girl first cousins who were the daughters of Willoughby 
Hemingway in Oberlin with us. Isabel and Adelaide, I think. And 
another cousin, George Hemingway. 

Levenson: What Impact did Ernest's books have on the Hemingway family? 

C. Service: They were horrified by The Sun Also Rises. In 1926 when we moved 
there they really felt greatly distressed. I do not know that 
his own generation did, but certainly the older generation, his 
grandfather particularly, felt that Ernest had disgraced the 
family. That was a very outspoken book for its day. Now it 
seems so mild you can hardly believe it. [Laughter] But, then 
as the book got marvelous reviews and as time went on I suppose 
they must have been proud eventually. The Oak Park public 
library kept The Sun Also Rises in the locked book section. My 
sister Katherine, who got a library job there, told me this. 

Reflections on Changing School Ten Times 

Levenson: Is there anything you'd like to add about your school experience? 

C. Service: No, except my own thought on the subject, that I went to ten 
schools before going to college — seven grade schools as I've 
said before and three high schools. So, that's ten schools in 
twelve years. And, I don't really think it had any bearing on 
my education. By that I mean I don't think it hindered me in 
any way. Now, it's true there were gaps in my education. I've 
never been good at languages perhaps because I never got really 
started in high school on them. But, I never felt displaced. I 
didn't like Oak Park because I didn't have a good time. I hardly 
made any friends in Oak Park, though I did make one good friend 
with whom I still correspond. But, I never felt that this was a 
scholastic hardship. 

I always felt too — which I must have gotten from my family 
because I certainly wasn't thinking in these terms — that travel 
was a great advantage, because in those days not many people did 
much traveling. I had been places that nobody else had ever been. 


C. Service: I hadn't been abroad but I'd been to places like Seattle, and 
then we went to Hawaii. To me that was all wonderful. So, I 
don't think that I ever felt it was a handicap or a disadvantage 
to have gone to all these various schools. 

But, perhaps one of the reasons I loved Oberlin so was that 
I spent four years in one college. And of course Oberlin is 
where I met Jack. Do you think that's enough for today? 

Levenson: Sure. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 

Above: Katherine Julia Muhleman, 22 yrs. old and 
U.S. Lieutenant Edward Hugh Schulz, 25 yrs. old, 
married October 12, 1898 in Hannibal, Ohio. 

Left : Caroline Edward Schulz, 7 mos., with her 
father in Kansas City, Missouri, 1910 

Right: Mrs. Schulz with Gertrude, 10 yrs. old 
(.standing) ; Caroline, 1-1/2 yrs. old; and 
Katherine, 6 yrs. old in Wheeling, W. Virginia, 
summer, 1911. 

Below, left: Grandmother § Grandfather Schulz, 
(Gertrude 5 Henry Schulz), Woodlawn, W. Virginia, 
circa 1914 

Below, right: Caroline Edward Schulz, 9 yrs. old, 
Washington, 1918. 



[Interview 2: September 29, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

Meets Jack Service 

C. Service: Oberlin. We talked last time about how I happened to go to 
Oberlin. My father and my mother really picked the college 
out for me. I had no objections. In fact I was very happy to 
go there. A lot of people from Oak Park went there besides the 
Hemingways. A number of my classmates went, my senior classmates. 
Oberlin had a strong Congregational affiliation. It was started 
as a Congregational college, and then became nonsectarian. But, 
the people who founded Oberlin were New England Congregationalists. 

I arrived in Oberlin on September 15, 1927. It was a 
perfectly beautiful fall day. I took the train from Chicago 
with a friend and we had to change in Toledo. Today there are 
no passenger trains going to Oberlin, but then the New York 
Central did have a little spur line that went from Toledo around 
to Cleveland. On this train there was a girl, obviously going to 
Oberlin, with two young men whom she sat and talked with the whole 
time. One of them was Jack. I did not know that. We reconstructed 
this later. But, I remember I was very impressed with the fact that 
this girl had two boys to talk with when my friend and I had no 
boys to talk with! 

I met Jack very soon after and knew him all my four years 
in college. Now, I'm going to switch this around a bit. I'm 
going to put meeting Jack first. I lived at Baldwin cottage in 
Oberlin, and sometime during the year Jack got a substitute job 
there as a waiter. So, I saw him very often. I saw him three 
meals a day. Neither of us had any interest in the other. We 
both were interested in other people. We knew each other fairly 
well, but not as well as we knew other people. Jack was extremely 


C. Service: handsome and attractive and shy! He was very much smitten with a 

dark-eyed girl. Then in his sophomore ye/ir he became o full waiter 
at Baldwin and he waited table there for three years. T, by tht« 
time, had moved on to other houses. I lived each year in a differ 
ent house. 

Jack all the sophomore year had been going with a girl named 
Dolly Hiatt, a very pretty, petite, dark-haired girl. At the 
beginning of our junior year he and she broke up. I'm using terms 
now which I would have used then. I've always been very glad I 
had nothing to do with this breakup because I think it was very 
hard on Dolly. 

I, in the meantime, had been going with a very nice red-haired 
chap, Stewart McKelvey, but he had jilted me. I'm really going 
back to college days to think in these terms! After that I'd had 
no beau at all except an occasional date. In fact I didn't have 
many dates at all the second half of my sophomore year and I was 
feeling very blue about this. 

When I came back for my junior year my father came to Obeflin 
with me, and my uncle was there for some reason, my Uncle Wesley 
Schulz. We had dinner at the Oberlin Inn, and also having dinner 
at the Oberlin Inn was Jack with his mother who had just come from 
China to see him. He had not seen her for two years. I believe 
that Marty Wilbur was there. Marty Wilbur became Professor C. Martin 
Wilbur, Columbia University. Eddie [Edwin 0.] Reischauer may have 
been there too. Eddie Reischauer later became ambassador to Japan 
and the noted Japan scholar at Harvard. He was a classmate too. 
Since we hadn't seen each other since the summer before, we stopped 
and said hello to each other, and we introduced his mother and my 
father and uncle and so on. 

Well, about three weeks later — two weeks later, sometime in 
there — I was walking down the street and I met Jack and another 
friend Dudley Reed. We stopped and talked a minute, and then they 
walked on and I walked on. Then Jack turned and called to me — I was 
called Gary in college — he said, "Gary, are you busy next Saturday 
night?" I said, "No." He said, "Will you go to the All College 
with me?" — All Colleges being dances that were held on Saturday 
nights. I said, "Yes, I'd love to." 

Well, I was thrilled, absolutely thrilled. I rushed home and 
I told my roommate — this was a Monday; Saturday was several days 
off — I went home and I told my roommate, Kay Kuhn, that Jack Service 
had asked me for a date and what should I wear and that I was 
thrilled to death and so on. 


C. Service: I had a dress that I had persuaded my mother to buy me against 
her better judgment — purple skirt and a lavender blouse. I 
considered it my best dress. I had not worn it. I thought I'd 
wear that. Then I thought, "No, if he asks me for another date 
I'll keep my best dress for the second date." So, I don't know 
what I wore but it wasn't the purple and lavender. 

Anyway, on that very first date — how it came up I don't know — I 
discovered that Jack hated the color purple, hated it. Wasn't I 
lucky not to wear that dress? I never wore that dress. I've 
never worn purple. Occasionally I do get something lavender. 

We walked down the street to the All College. We stopped at 
an eatery called Gibson's — it has been in Oberlin forever — and we 
went in and Jack said we'd get a coke. Each of us got a nickel 
coke and we sat beside each other on two stools at the counter. 
Suddenly he said to me, "Have you singed your eyelashes?" I said, 
"Why no, what do you mean?" He said, "Because you have the shortest 
eyelashes of any girl I've ever seen." 

Levenson: What a thing to say. [Laughter] 

C. Service: That was a romantic beginning, wasn't it? I said, "Well." I don't 
know what I said. I'm sure I didn't say anything except, "Well." 
I didn't know what to say about something like that. But, that 
didn't seem to bother either of us. 

So, we went on. We had a very pleasant evening. Jack was 
learning to dance and one of my few accomplishments is that I'm 
a very good ballroom dancer. We got on very, very well and had a 
fine time. From then on I would say we fell in love. We went 
together all our junior year; then our senior year things were not 
too happy. But, nevertheless, we went together for two years in 

Levenson: What was unhappy in your senior year? 

C. Service: Well, we weren't getting along so well. I don't really think I 
want to say much about it because it's extremely personal. It's 
just that I think that we were both terribly young. I was probably 
more in love with Jack than he was with me at that point. And so, 
when we left college we really broke up. We didn't write or see 
each other for about nine months. When we did see each other again 
Jack proposed to me. I would say he fell in love again then. We 
were married two and a half years after we left college. 

Perhaps it was the stress and strain of our senior year. Jack 
was only twenty-one. We're the same age. I'm four months younger. 
I think perhaps it was a recurrence of what he felt about Dolly 
Hiatt, that she was too serious, for him — so young. I don't know. 
I really don't know to this day, except that we just didn't get on 
very well. 


C. Service: Junior year though was absolutely divine. Ic was heaven. Jack 

was — is — an unusually attractive person. I've always thought him 
so. He was certainly handsome. He was a big man on the campus. 
I was well enough known but I was not pretty. I'm not saying that 
I was unattractive, by no means. But, I was not pretty and I was 
not one of the girls, people, that would have a great whirl anyplace, 

I think now I'll stop there with Jack, except to say that my 

junior year in college brought together the strongest influences 

on my life: my father, Jack, and Oberlin. These were the three 
most important influences in my life.* 

Extracurricular Activities 

C. Service: I'll talk about Oberlin now. I see you have on your agenda 

extracurricular activities. I was never very interested in any 
extracurricular activities except going to dances. But, I had a 
lot to do with the dramatic association, the Oberlin Dramatic 
Association. Jack worked for that too, and that was one of the 
things that brought us together. We knew each other there for 
two years. Then, when we fell in love and began seeing a great 
deal of each other, why, we always were together when they had 
plays because I had a lot to do with the costuming and Jack helped 
with the stage management. I had wanted to act but I had no 
ability with acting. So, I ended up with makeup and with costumes. 

That was really the only outside activity I did. I think I 
had something to do with the annual yearbook. But, I got into 
that because of Jack. I wanted to be with him. I wanted to see 
him really practically every minute of my life, it seems to me, 
at that time. 

I also joined something called the Oberlin Peace Society. 
Now, the Oberlin Peace Society was organized by the president of 
the college, Ernest Hatch Wilkins. We met with Ernest Hatch Wilkins 
and with various other people. I can hardly remember. Jack would 
be able to tell you more about this. We were supposed to have some 
influence in bringing peace to the world. Imagine! I joined 
because I wanted to see Jack. I was interested in peace too, but 
I'm sure my main interest was in seeing Jack. 

*As I grow older I recognize the great influence of my mother 
too. C.S. 


C. Service: I was not athletic, so I did nothing in the sports line. Jack 
was a long distance runner and a very good one, and also he ran 
the half mile, the mile, and the two mile. It would be meters 
now, hut in those days that's what it was. 

Studies History and English 

C. Service: I was a history major. I'd always decided to be a history major 

long before I went to college. I liked history. I liked studying— 
not everything. I was very bad at languages. I really enjoyed the 
work that I was doing, and I was a good enough student so I did 
become a Phi Beta Kappa. But, it was more because I was con 
scientious — I never turned a paper in late and that kind of 
thing — and because I enjoyed what I was doing. 

I took a great deal of English too. I had a marvelous 
English teacher named Ruth Lampson. She was one of the most 
influential teachers that I ever had. She was rather sharp-witted, 
acerbic. She made you think. She had original ideas about the 
people she was talking about. I took freshman English from her. 
I took a course in Mallory, mainly because she taught it, because 
I really didn't care much about Mallory. I took one other course 
from her. Now, that I cannot remember. I also took a couple of 
Shakespearian courses from a Professor Jelliffe which I liked very 

Basically my college was a very happy experience as far as 
studying and classes. Now, I do not think that in any way we 
worked as hard as students do today. I do not think there were 
so many pressures on us. I do not think there was the competition. 
We went to college. We stayed there four years. Very few people 
dropped out except when the Depression started. When I was a 
junior I was asked to study for honors. I said no. 

Levenson: Why? 

C. Service: It would have taken up too much time that I didn't want to give. 

I couldn't have done the few other things I wanted to do. I really 
didn't want to study all the time. 

Also, I think by nature I'm a person that likes to set a limit 
to what I do. I'm not a super-achiever by any means. Even today 
I will decide I'm going to do so much on a certain day. When I 
get to the end of it I will stop. Even if there may be more I 
could do, or perhaps should do, I'll wait. But neither am I a 
procrastinator. I never put off things in the sense of saying, 


C. Service: "Okay, I'll do it someday." If I say I will do it, I will do it. 

But, I want to do it in my own sort of time .scheme, and I think I'm 
inclined to put things into blocks and do so much and so much. 
Studying for honors would have taken more time than I wanted to 
give. I've never had any regrets about that. 


Also, I don't think I thought in terms of the career. I 
often wonder what I did think about, because I don't think I began 
to think very much until I was about thirty years old! 

I'll go back here. The atmosphere of the college community 
was very pleasant. We just were there. Oberlin really was the 
town. It was much smaller than it is today, well not much 
smaller, less than five thousand people though. The college 
and the town blended together. I don't think there was a town 
and gown situation. There might have been in a few things, but 
it was never very evident to me in any case. 

The Depression started at the beginning of our junior year — 
October what, when did the stock market crash? October 29, or 
something like that, 1929. 

Levenson: Yes. 

C. Service: Well, I remember because we had a college picture taken the day 
before, the 28_th. I remembered this afterwards when looking at 
the date on the picture and thinking that was the day before the 
stock market crashed. The crash didn't have much impact that year, 
but by the time we came back for our senior year the Depression 
was affecting people. A few people had to drop out. People did 
not have as much money. It did not affect me personally because 
my father was in the army. So, my own life was not changed by 
this, except that a number of my relatives lost their jobs. But, 
this was after I'd left college. 

Spirit of the College 

C. Service: Oberlin was influential in — I call myself a liberal. I'm still 
a liberal today. I've become more liberal as I've grown older 
which is usually not the way things go. But, my mother was this 
way too. My mother became far more liberal as she grew older. 

In my own family there was very little prejudice. I never 
heard anything, no prejudice against Jews. There was no prejudice 
against Negroes. We'd lived in the South a lot. There were 
questions that were never discussed, it is true. But, I'm sure 
there were no feelings of this kind. My mother had definite likes 


C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service; 


C. Service: 
C. Service: 

and dislikes. I hardly ever heard my father say anything mean 
about anybody. Now, I said, as you know, we had a Catholic maid 
and that she told me I would go to hell, things like that. But, 
I never heard any prejudice against Catholics. But, when I say 
that, I also realize that practically everybody we knew was 
Republican and was Protestant. 

And white. 

And white, right, except for maids and people who worked for us 
who we're colored, as we called them. 

Well, in my freshman year at Oberlin, in Baldwin cottage, 
there were two colored girls. I wish I could remember their names. 
I can't. But, I can't remember a lot of names. They were sopho 
mores. One of the things that freshman girls had to do was to make 
the beds of the sophomores for one week. We drew names. Well, I 
drew the names of the two colored girls to make their beds every 
•day for a week which I did. The only thing that I thought about it 
was that it really was a switch because my recollections were of 
New Orleans where we'd had lots of colored help. They had done all 
the work. They'd made the beds, they'd taken me out, they'd dressed 
me, they'd given me baths, and so on. Now, I was making the beds 
for two colored sophomores. It only passed through my head, "Well, 
this is fine. This is okay." I'm sure anybody else who would 
have drawn their names would have had the same feeling, but I did 
connect it with the fact that we had had so much colored help and 
that things were different at Oberlin. 

Are you sure a white southern girl of the twenties — 
wouldn't have come to Oberlin. 

Perhaps she 

I was going to say she probably wouldn't have come to Oberlin. 
But, I'm sure she wouldn't have felt the same as you. 

Well, but she would have probably, being once at Oberlin. I don't 
think there was any race prejudice there. There were a number of 
colored students. I don't recall any feeling about them. It's 
true thet there was no mixed dating that I remember. But, Oberlin 
did open my eyes to this kind of thing, the history of Oberlin too, 
the fact that it had been the first coeducational college in the 
world, that it had been the first to take in Negroes and women on 
•m equal basis with men, with white men, because that's all there 
were before — white men. I think when my father decided to send me 
to Oberlin it wasn't for any of those reasons, but I think these 
things impressed me at Oberlin. 


C. Service: I went through college very happily. I don't think I had any 
great thoughts about anything. We had to take two courses in 
religion: one our freshman year and that was on the book of Saint 
Mark, and one our senior year which was more or less philosophical 
and in which we were supposed to write our philosophy of life. 
Now, I can tell you when I was a senior in college I had no 
philosophy of life. I doubt if many seniors had. I can't 
imagine what drivel I must have put down because I really 
knew nothing about these things. I think I was a good student 
because it was easy for me to learn things and I could hand things 
back to the professor that he had taught me. But, as for original 
thought? How many people have an original thought, especially 
when they're in college? 

Levenson: I thought that Oberlin tried to inculcate a service ideal to its 
students at least in the earlier years. 

C. Service: I think in the earlier years it did, in an overt way; and I think 
that that has always been important; but some people, like me 
obviously — I did get an awakening from Oberlin but more from the 
atmosphere of it than from any definite thing that was said or done. 

The rules were strict. We weren't allowed to ride in cars. 
I think Oberlin still does not allow cars, except for some special 
reason. Freshmen women had to be in at 8:00 p.m., sophomore women 
at 8:30 p.m., junior and senior women at 9:40 p.m. On Saturday 
nights we had 10:00 p.m. permission except for a big dance when 
we had 11:00 p.m., and once in a while 12:00 midnight! But, these 
were just little peripheral things. Once in a while we skipped 
out. Once in a while we didn't come in when we were supposed to. 
This happened. 

Everybody felt that the world was going forward. The world 
was prosperous. The United States had come out of the First 
World War a world power. Until the Depression hit, everything 
was just going to be fine. People worked hard. If you worked 
hard you succeeded. If you succeeded you got a little more money 
and so on. It was this kind of simplistic thing. Nobody could 
conceive what the world was going to go through in the next ten, 
twenty, thirty years. It was all optimistic. It was an optimistic 

Levenson: What about Oberlin 's connection with China? 

C. Service: : wasn't thinking in terms of China. But, when I met Jack one of 
the fascinating things about him was that he had been born and 
brought up in China. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. 
I wanted him to say something in Chinese. But, if there was 
anything Jack hated it was being asked to say something in Chinese 


C. Service: because he didn't want to. Finally one day he croaked out a few 
bars of a hymn in Chinese and that satisfied me. Jack cannot 
sing. But, anyway he said those and one or two other words. 

But, there were a lot of people in Oberlin who were from 
China. There was Marty Wilbur who had been brought up in China. 
I'm not sure he was born there. Eddie Reischauer was born in 
Japan. A chap named Sid Willis had been in China. There was a 
Phil Bowen who had been born and brought up in China. There was 
a Janet Fitch. She's related to the Fitches here in Berkeley. 
She was there. She had been, I think, born and brought up in 
China. There were some foreign students too, not many. 

Levenson: Were there many students from China? 

C. Service: I'm not sure that there were any actual Chinese students from 

China then, no. But, Oberlin did have a school in Shansi — Oberlin 
in Shansi. Today there are Oberlin schools in Taiwan and in India, 
but the organization is still called the Oberlin-Shansi Memorial 
Association. So, there was this link. 

And then we had the Memorial Arch which you probably have 
seen in Oberlin which was a memorial to the Oberlin people, 
missionaries, who had been killed in the Boxer Rebellion. 

So, when I started going out with Jack then I began to think 
about China and I thought, would I ever go to China? It seemed 
highly improbable because I just couldn't conceive of going to 
China. It was like going to the moon. But, I was very, very 
interested in what he had to tell me and about his life in 
West China, the experiences that he'd had as a child with his 
brothers, some stories about his mother and father. 

When I went to Oberlin my father was in Chicago as District 
Engineer. Then he was transferred to Cleveland as Division 
Engineer. That was my sophomore year, and I went to Cleveland 
for summer vacation. At the beginning of our junior year when 
I started going with Jack my family was still in Cleveland. Then 
my father was transferred to Fort Humphreys, Va. to be Commandant 
of Fort Humphreys and the Engineer School. I was thrilled with 
this because I thought at an army post what a good time I'd have, 
dances, young men, all the fun I anticipated. [Laughter] 

So, my last two years at Oberlin I went home to Virginia and 
I loved it. I loved the vacations. The vacation between my junior 
and senior year, my second sister married. She married Albert W. 
Bruce. They live here in Berkeley now. Anyway, that whole summer 
was taken up with the wedding. 


Secretary of War Patrick Hurley's Open House, 1931 

C. Service: Jack was supposed to come see me late that summer and then he 
didn't. He was in Michigan. That's what started things off 
on the wrong foot our senior year. He did come to visit me at 
Christmas, our senior year, and we had a very good time. Oddly 
enough — these things mesh into the future — [Brig. General Patrick] 
Hurley, who was later Jack's nemesis in many ways, was secretary 
of war in the Hoover administration, and he had an open house 
on New Year's Day [1931], he and his wife. 

All the top ranking army officers around were invited, 
commandants of the posts and so on and so forth, the chiefs of 
the various branches. So, my father and mother, of course, 
received an invitation because Father was commandant of Fort 
Humphreys. They went off to an open house at the Hurleys', and 
Jack and I stayed home. I've often thought what a strange thing 
that was! Who would have thought that Jack's and Hurley's paths 
would ever have crossed? 

Levenson: Do you remember your father expressing an opinion of Hurley as 
secretary of war? 

C. Service: No, but if Father had expressed an opinion it would have been a 
good one. My father was a person who rarely disliked people. 
Also, he had great respect for people who had risen in the world 
because he himself had, and so he would have thought Hurley was a 
fine man. I'm sure of that. It never occurred to him to think 
anything else. And he was a true-blue Republican always, my 
father. Because Hurley was Republican, the administration was 
Republican, my father would never have thought anything except 
that they were good people. I don't know whether Hurley was a 
good secretary of war or not. He was a very vain man certainly. 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 

Debut in Washington, D.C. 

Levenson: What did you do when you graduated? 

C. Service: Now, when I graduated — you won't believe this but it's true — I 
went home. It never occurred to me to do anything but go home. 
I did not look for a job. I simply went home to Fort Humphreys 
and I made my debut the next fall [1931] in Washington society 
which is unbelievable to me today. This was my mother's idea. 


C. Service: My mother must have thought, "Here's Caroline coming home. What 
am I going to do with her? Here we are at Fort Humphreys with 
lots of young bachelors and Caroline should have a good time and 
Caroline should make her debut in Washington." 

So, my mother went up to Washington and she saw Mrs. [Helen] 
Hagner who was one of the two people who arranged debuts. And 
I made my debut. I had an afternoon tea dance at Fort Humphreys 
in the officers' club and I had the post band. There was a 
caterer. Well, I guess the man who ran the mess did the catering. 
So, for my family it was not as expensive as if it had been done 
in Washington. Any army girl who lived on a post could use the 
post facilities to give a party as could anybody else on the post. 
So, in this sense — but it must have cost my parents many hundreds 
of dollars which 1 don't know that they could afford. You know, 
the Depression was on then. 

But, my father went along with it. I went and made endless 
calls in Washington. I wrote my name down at the White House. I 
was invited to a party at the White House because I was one of the 
year's debutantes. I went to endless debutante parties. I was 
not particularly popular. I was one of the few college graduates. 
Most of the girls were eighteen and nineteen. I was twenty-one. 
I'd graduated from college. 

Levenson: I was going to ask if you weren't a little bit elderly. [Laughter] 

C. Service: Yes, I was indeed. There were one or two others. Of course, I 
had a great variety of young men at the post that I could ask to 
go with me. I didn't have to have them ask me. If I were going 
to a debutante party I would ask some bachelor, "Are you busy? 
How about taking me into town or going with me?" Most of them 
were quite agreeable to do this. 

I had one very devoted beau who later became a major general 
in the air corps. He is dead now. Lee Washburne, he was a 
devoted beau. But, for the rest I just would ask somebody to 
take me. 


But, when I think about it now — In terms of the present 
day — Of course, I shouldn't think in those terms. But, what a 
waste of time, what a waste of money, how totally unimportant 
it really was in my life! I cannot remember any of the other 
girls. In fact, I can remember going to the White House and 
having a terrible — Oh, what a terrible fiasco! 

Was it the Hoovers in the White House? 


C. Service: 


C. Service: 

C. Service; 

C. Service; 

C. Service: 


Yes, the Hoovers were in the White House. They were giving a 
party for their two sons and I was invited. You know you were 
just invited. They invited people on the debutante list. 

How did you become a debutante officially? What made the 
difference between a party at the mess and a coming out party? 

I'm not too sure. When you went to see Mrs. Hagner you 
were put on her list. There was another woman too. Then, 
whoever gave a party had to get it on their calendars. And 
everybody who was on the debutante list just got invited auto 

Do you know what gave these two women their commanding position? 

I haven't any idea. I haven't any idea, except one of them 
issued a book which I think her daughter or daughter-in-law, 
somebody named Hagner, is still issuing in Washington — the blue 
book which lists everybody with any social standing in Washington. 


And they issued that and I think my father and mother and I 
were in it. My father and mother were in it because my father 
was Commandant at Fort Humphreys and I was put on the list as 
their daughter. That gave us our position. You had to go and 
see them — Mrs. Hagner or the other woman; I think her name was 
Mrs. Dunlop — and then they made the arrangements to give a debut. 
You were told what to do and what kind of invitations to get. 
You got them engraved and you sent them out. Ridiculous! 
Ridiculous! [Laughter] Except I went along with it quite 
willingly. I did not think it was ridiculous in those days. 

But, I didn't have all that good a time. I didn't know 
enough people. I was a stranger really in Washington. I had a 
fairly good time because there were enough men that I could 
call on and they all were very good about dancing with me. 

And you were good at dancing. 

Yes, right. So, it worked all right but I didn't regret it when 
it was over. 

I'm sorry. I interrupted you. 
the White House. 

You were going to tell me about 

C. Service: The White House. Well, I went to a party and I went with 

Miles Reber who was one of the lieutenants at Humphreys. He 
was one of the military aides at the White House. I went with 


C. Service: him and a girl named Betsy Pillsbury to this dance. You didn't 
have to have an escort. When we got to the White House I was 
sort of on my own. Betsy had some friends. Anyway, one of the 
aides — not Miles but somebody else — came rushing up to me and 
said, "You're to sit at the head table for the supper." I 
really thought, "This can't be so because why should 1 be singled 
out to sit at the head table?" But, he said, "When the supper- 
time comes you're to go to the head table." 

So when the suppertime came we all filed into the state 
dining room. There were lots of little tables. I started 
making my way to the head table when another aide came up and 
said no, no it was a big mistake, 1 wasn't at the head table. 
By this time all the tables were filled up and my few friends 
were someplace else. Well, 1 had no place to sit! There was an 
empty chair however — there were obviously enough chairs. So, I 
went and sat with people whom I didn't know. I was embarrassed 
to tears. I really am not easily embarrassed, but this embarrassed 
me no end because I was left standing when everybody else had sat 
down. I've often wondered how they made this mistake. I was 
crushed over the whole episode. I was very happy when the evening 
was over. The dance was in the East Room. I was glad to be asked 
to the White House, but I wish it had been a happier evening. 

Levenson: Did you meet the president, shake hands? 

C. Service: I don't have any idea. Isn't that awful? I don't have the 
slightest Idea. I suppose the Hoovers were there. 

1 did meet Mrs. Roosevelt later. When I was still at 
Fort Humphreys before I got married Mrs. Roosevelt had a tea 
and she invited Mother and me. I don't know what the occasion 
was. There were a lot of people coming to tea. I can remember 
meeting Mrs. Roosevelt very, very well. People were invited to 
the White House in those days. If you just lived around 
Washington you went and signed the book. I wonder if 
people can do that anymore. But, you signed the book and if 
you signed the book, why, you probably got invited to something 
during the year. So, Mother and I signed the book and we were 
invited to tea. Mrs. Roosevelt was there and I remember her 
very well. She was very gracious. She was gracious to everybody. 
I'm always glad that I saw her. 

The Hoovers once came down to Fort Humphreys. So, I must 
have met Mrs. Hoover because when I got married she wrote my 
mother a very nice letter. So, I did meet Mrs. Hoover and I 
think we went to call and we went to an afternoon tea given by 
Mrs. Hoover. Everything in those days was smaller. Mrs. Hoover 
did write a lovely letter to my mother. 


Strayer's Business College and a Temporary Job on the 

Waehinaton Post 

C. Service: After I made my debut I went to business school because it was 
obvious I was going to have to have a job or do something. I 
wasn't just going to sit. Jack and I did not decide to get 
married until the next January, [1933]. 

So, in September of the year before, '32, I went to a place 
called Strayer's Business College in Washington. I took a business 
course. I was going to be a secretary. I was very, very bad at 
both shorthand and typing. All the girls who were just out of 
high school were much better. I was good at the things I had to 
do with my head but not with my fingers. However, I persisted 
and I did finally finish a one year course at Strayer's Business 

By this time I was engaged and definitely going to China in 
September. But in, I think, late July or early August of 1933, 
I substituted at the Washington Post for a girl who worked on the 
society page. I was there three weeks, and at the end of that 
time she came back. Eugene Meyer had just bought the paper and 
he was there, walking around quite a lot. Everybody saw him. I 
applied for a job and I was told I could have one, but I do not 
know if it would have been a job as a secretary or on the paper 
or what. But, they did say they would keep me on. I do not know 
why I applied for a job because I was going to China to be married. 
Perhaps I wanted the assurance that I could get a job. I got $25 
a week which was the wage that the other girl was getting. In 
other words $100 a month was what she got for working on the 
society page. I thought it was a lot of money. 

Levenson: It was pretty good pay in those days, I think. 
C. Service: Yes, it was. 

Engagement to Jack and the Foreign Service Examinations 

C. Service: To go back a little. When Jack and I met again, the spring of 
1932, we began to think in terms of marriage. It is true I 
turned him down — I'd been very hurt — but the thought was there. 
I would have liked to marry Jack right away after college. If 
it had been today Jack and I would probably have been living 
together. But you see in those days nobody would have dreamed 
of that. In fact you could not even get married at Oberlin. 


C. Service: You would have had to leave. Since then I've heard of one or 

two people who did marry and kept it secret. But, we would have 
been expelled from Oberlin if we had gotten married. 

Anyway, by the summer of 1932 Jack and I were writing 
again. He had come to see me at Humphreys and then he came out 
here to Berkeley and took the Foreign Service exams. He saw 
some very old and dear friends, the Yard girls, in Evanston. 
Now, I think I better say something about the Yard girls. 

• . 

Jack's mother's best friend in China was Mabelle Yard, 
the wife of Jim Yard, a Methodist minister. The Yards had 
four daughters, the Services had three sons, and I think the 
parents would have been very happy if one of the daughters 
and one of the sons had made a match. During some of his 
vacations from Oberlin Jack went to see the Yards who by 
this time were living in Evanston. When I started going out 
with Jack he talked about the Yards so I heard about the Yard 
girls from almost the minute 1 met Jack. I did not meet any 
of them till we moved to New York after Jack was fired from 
the Foreign Service. Since then I've known all of them. We've 
become dear friends. Their names are Elizabeth, Priscilla, 
Molly, and Florence. Florence is married to Louis Harris, the 
pollster. (Elizabeth died in April, 1977.) The other girls 
married equally interesting people. 

Jack had stopped to see the Yards on his way west after 
he'd been to see me at Fort Humphreys. Jack said we wanted to 
get married and he needed a job and what should he do? He was 
going to come out to Berkeley and go to school. Jack stayed 
an extra year in Oberlin doing postgraduate work in art history, 
but he decided he didn't want to go on with that. When he saw 
the Yard girls one of them said to him, "John [Paton] Davies has 
taken the Foreign Service exams and passed. Why don't you try 
them?" This was held against Jack, I think, at some later point, 
against Jack and John Davies that they had, you know, infiltrated 
together! They'd played Communist games when they were children 
in West China, [laughter] if you can believe such nonsense. 

Anyway, Jack thought well John Davies had passed; he'd try 
the exams. So, he came out to California and he telegraphed 
the State Department that he wanted to take the examination. 
It was a three day exam. He took it to see what it was like, 
not thinking to pass. But he did pass. Then, he came to 
Washington in January, 1933 — and that's when we became engaged — and 
he took the oral exams. He passed those and so he was put on the 
list. Now, they did not give the exams again for three years 
because of the Depression. Jack and the people who passed in '33 
were not appointed to the Foreign Service until the fall, 1935. 
So, even though he passed the exams he did not have a job. 


November 11, 1933 

No. 265) 

I. Officer of the Day for today - Lt. Browning. 
Officer of the Day for Sunday - Lt. Peereon. 
Officer of the Day for Monday - Lt. Keller. 

II. Medical Officer of the Day for today - Major Johannes. 
Medical Officer of the Day for Sunday - Major Girt. 

III. Field Officer of the Day for the week-end - Major Reinecke, 


IV. Commander of the guard for today - Staff Sgt. Peterson. 
Commander of the Guard for Sunday - Staff Sgt. Henry. 
Commander, of the Guard for Monday - Steff Sgt. Daniel. 

V. Announcement. Colonel and Mrs. Schulz announce the nar- 
riage of their daughter Caroline to Kr. John Stewart Service on 
November 9, 1933, at Haiphong, French Indo China. Kr. ar.c 1 . !'rs. 
Service will reside at Yunnan Fu, China. Their address «111 be - 
oare of the American Consulate. 

VI. Tide Table for Sunday: 

High tide 3:18 A.M. end 3:01 P.M. 

Low tide 9:07 A.M. and 9:37 P.M. 
Tide Table for Monday: 

High tide 3:12 A.M. and 3:50 P.M. 

Low tide 9:54 A.M. and 10:32 P.M. 

VII. Movies for tonight: "Devil's In Love" with Victor Jory & 
Lorretta Young; "Loose H^latio^e" Andy Clyde; and "Out of tie Or 
dinary" Hodge Podge. 

Movies for Sunday: "Tugboat Annie" with Marie Dressier & 
Wallace Beery and "Paramount News." 

The second show will start at approximately 7:50 P.M. 

By order of Colonel SCHULZ: 


Mfljor, 13th Engineers, 

Executive Officer. 

*~^ : . E. J. PETERSON, 
Ist'Lt., Corps of Engineers, 



C. Service: He decided to go out to China and see what he could do in 
Shanghai. When he got a job I would come out and we would 
be married. This was January. The January of '33 we became 
engaged. I went out to China with his mother, sailing from 
San Francisco on September 8, and we landed in Shanghai on 
September 29, 1933. Today is September 29. So, it was actually 
what, forty- three years ago today that I landed in China, in 
Shanghai, with Jack's mother! 

Jack in the meantime had gotten a job with an American 
bank at $50 (U.S.) a month. The Depression had hit Shanghai. 
(Later on this bank failed.) He kept going around to the 
consulate to see if there were some jobs available. Finally 
they told him there was a job available in the American consulate 
in Yunnanfu. Today's it's called Kunming. This job paid $1800 
a year. The man who had been assigned there from Mukden or 
someplace like that had said he wouldn't go because he had too 
many children — Yunnanfu was really in the backwoods — and would 
Jack take it? 

He cabled me at Fort Humphreys and said he had this chance 
and should he go? My father said, "No!" My father said, "If 
you're going to China you're not going back to a place like 
that." So, I cabled and said, "No, don't go," whereupon I got 
a cable saying he'd taken it! Best thing he ever did because 
later the bank failed. Not the best thing he ever did, obviously, 
but he was very smart to do it. 

Marriage in Haiphong 

C. Service: I said, "I'm going anyway." Well, my family had nothing against 
my marrying Jack. There was no feeling that I should not go to 
China and marry Jack. But, it seemed so far away, and Yunnanfu 
was really far away. In order to get to Yunnanfu I had to go to 
Shanghai. I had to take a coastal boat to go down to Haiphong by 
way of Hong Kong, and then I had to take the train from Haiphong 
up into China, the French railroad. 

We wanted to be married in Hong Kong, but Jack had worked 
such a short time he had little leave coming to him. He got this 
job in June, [1933], John Davies was in Yunnanfu too but he soon 
got transferred. Yunnanfu was a two man consulate: a vice consul 
and a clerk. Jack was going to be the clerk. There was a consulate 
in Yunnanfu because the Canton consulate was too far away to help 
Americans. There were about, oh maybe about a hundred Americans 
somewhere in Yunnan province. Also, I think, our government 
wanted to keep an eye on what the French were doing up there. 


November 23d, 1933 

My dear Mrs. Schulz: 

Thank you so much for remem 
bering me at such an important time 1 I was so 
glad to have the announcement of your daughter's 
marriage. I hope that you are very pleased 
over Caroline's happiness, and that the future 
holds much Joy in store for her. 

If Caroline and her husband 
ever get to the part of the world where we are 
at the time, I do hope they will let us know. 
I should so like to renew my acquaintance with 

With most cordial felicitations 
to the young people in which my husband joins me, 

I am 

Yours sincerely, 



C. Service: Jack could not get leave to be married in Hong Kong, so it was 
decided we would try to be married in Haiphong. In order to 
get married in Haiphong we had to be married under French law. 
There is nothing more difficult, or at least there wasn't in 
those days, because although it was a civil service, banns were 
supposed to be published for three weeks in advance, three 
separate weeks. We were not going to be there three weeks. I 
was going to arrive and we had to be married right away. My 
family did not want us to travel alone, unmarried, up to — you 
know, it all sounds antediluvian, doesn't it? — up to Kunming. 
Kunming and Yunnanfu are the same place. I use the terms 
interchangeably . 

So, we got a lot of papers together. We gave them to the 
French consulate. We had to have them all translated into French 
in Shanghai. Then, they were sent to Haiphong. Finally the 
governor-general of Indochina — they were sent to him — said that 
he would waive these rules and we could be married as soon as I 
arrived in Haiphong. 

So, I arrived in Shanghai on September 29. I'd had some 
pains in my side and it turned out I needed my appendix out. 
Whether I really did or not I have never known, but the doctor 
said, "She'd better have her appendix out." So, a week after I 
got to Shanghai I had my appendix out, a week or two weeks — anyway, 
it doesn't matter. 

But, it delayed my journey and I did not leave Shanghai until 
October 27, on one of these little Butterfield and Swire coastal 
boats which had room for eight first class passengers and then 
hundreds of deck passengers, all Chinese, I assume, with great 
big steel grilles between where the officers and the first class 
passengers were and where the deck passengers were. There were 
armed Russian guards too because there had been quite a lot of 
piracy along the China coast. Pirates got on as passengers and 
then took over the ship. So, then they had all these guards 
and all this steel grillwork. 

We got to Hong Kong, stayed there a couple of days, — I stayed 
with the consul general and his wife on land; I wish I could 
remember their names, Jenkins? — and then we set off for Haiphong. 
We were supposed to arrive in Haiphong on a Monday. Jack in the 
meantime had gotten leave to come down from Yunnanfu to Haiphong. 

We did not get to Haiphong until Thursday, November 9, 
because we had a terrible typhoon. We were tied up in Hoihow 
harbor on Hainan island—no, we were anchored. There was no 
place to tie up and the wind was terrible and the water was 
raging. It was really a terrible typhoon. 


Levenson: Were you afraid either of the pirates or of the storm? 

C. Service: I was afraid of the storm. I wondered if the ship was ever 

going to get to Haiphong. I was still a little weak from the 
operation. I thought, "Maybe this boat is going to sink." It 
was a terrible typhoon. The officers were up all night, the 
water was sloshing around, and here we were. Bitter cold — it 
wasn't supposed to be — but a typhoon, the wind, it's cold. 

Finally, after three days, we could set off. We got to 
Haiphong on the ninth. Jack had been there since Monday. If 
I hadn't come then he would have had to go back. We got in 
about 4:30 p.m. That was a Thursday. The next day was the 
Annamite king's birthday, a holiday. The next day was Armistice 
Day which the French celebrated — the eleventh — that was a holiday. 
The next day was Sunday. So, if I had not gotten in on Thursday 
afternoon we could not have been married immediately. 

Going through customs was waived, everything. I was rushed 
off the boat, we were rushed up to the Hotel de Ville, and we 
were married by the mayor of Haiphong in a civil service. He 
was a large, corpulent man [gesturing a very large stomach] with 
a red, white, and blue sash around his middle. The ceremony 
was all in French of which we understood very little. We were 
given a little booklet proving we were married, with names for 
twelve children. [Laughter] 

Levenson: Good Catholic custom. 

C. Service: Yes, right. Our witnesses were a Standard Oil couple, Mr. and 

Mrs. Page. There were almost no Americans in Haiphong. We spent 
the night at somebody's flat, another American, a Mr. Glass, 
I think. But anyway, we spent the night in a flat belonging to 
another American. 

We were up at 6:00 a.m. We had sent a cable to both our 
parents the night before, that we were married. We had to catch 
the train at 6:00 a.m. to go up to Lao Kay on the border. 

After the wedding in Haiphong we were married again four 
days later in Yunnanfu; we had two weddings, both legal! The 
French one on November 9, was really the marriage. Then, we 
traveled for three days to Yunnan, got there Sunday night, 
the twelfth, and the next day we had a religious service at 
the home of Mr. and Mrs. Roger Arnold. He was the Yfoung] 
M[en's] C[hristian] Association] secretary. Mrs. Arnold made 
a cake. We had a delicious little meal — a wedding reception. 
There were a few foreigners there, the English nurses from the 


-•*( *sc.*_; it, ffC 


' If/'.). 
f/'t'/f /•*• 

v, X^ 7 



Colonel and iMra. Edward Hugh Scknli 

the narriatfe of tlirir JantfLlcr 
Caroline Edward 

Mr. « John Stewart Service 

OB TLirada^vtLe »L«tL of NorenLer 

One iLosMB J wae LnJreJ *» J tkirty- llree 

TL* Ax 


C. Service: hospital, and Charles Reed was there as the official consular 
witness. This wedding is registered in the State Department. 
So, we had two legal weddings four days apart. 

Levenson: Insurance. 

C. Service: Yes, right. [Laughter] The minister was Arthur Romig. He 

was a Presbyterian minister and he was the son of Presbyterian 
missionaries who had been out in China for a long time. I mustn't 
leave out the two weddings because that's always been a very 
interesting thing to me and also because it pleased our families. 
They wanted us to have a religious service. So, that was done. 


III CHINA: 1933-1940 

Early Married Life in Yunnanfu (Kunming) 

C. Service: It was a three day train trip to Kunming — the first day to 
Lao Kay. That was the border. We crossed the border. The 
second day we went to a place called Amichow. Funny name, 
doesn't sound right at all but I'm sure that's it. On the 
evening of the third day we got to Yunnanfu where we were 
met by a number of the foreigners. 

Jack and I were taken to the consulate where we were going 
to live with Charles Shadrach Reed II. He was the vice consul. 
He lived in the main part of the house and we lived in one wing. 
We lived in one big room and one small room and had one room 
that was a bath. There was no running water. There were no 
usable electric lights. It was a very primitive place. We had 
breakfast separately but we had lunch and dinner with Charles 
Shadrach. Yunnanfu was a very amazing place. 

Levenson: What had you expected and how was it different? 
C. Service: I don't know. I was very unhappy at first. 

Levenson: You were frightened first of all by the terrible trip. Did you 

have deeper apprehensions than that? It would be very surprising 
if you didn't. 

C. Service: I had what? 

Levenson: You were frightened by the trip obviously, but did you have much 
deeper apprehensions? 

C. Service: I was terribly homesick. I was terribly homesick. It took me 
quite a long time to get over this. Also the dirt oppressed me. 
And China was — I mean Yunnan was very benighted. Opium was 


,'ednesday, Oct. 11. / 

:'!' I3:ir ' inj, 

7:'nck it v;ork v;ith nothing to do. L'-r,t v/oek vre 
v:ers ".Me to ^ad the su mary o:" businsa:-; no that it 
looked as though vre v:ere really busy. Evt t/.ir, r.onth 
1 don't knov: v:hat vs are goinr to rlo. ?io little mail, 
and v:'-,en v;e do get it there -is nothinr to do. Instructions 
that don't need any action or answering. I've got 
to get nore typev/riting practise if I 'a ever ~oin£ to 
get to be good. 

Y/hat v/e've been doing the last fev; days is to 
read old narazines and arran e a - e the files, etc. The tine 
••"as not all v/asted. In an old Foreign Service Journal 
I found out just what should be the qualities of the 
"ideal "Foreign Service Officer". And then^ little 
v:hile later , lo and behold, I found an article about 
the "orei^n Service Officers v.'ife. -'ere they are. 

-'y boils are well. And I'M not foiin: to have 
any more. 

Tut hurry and -come. I'm sure I n^ec 1 looking 
after, anyway. 



TT nlike the duties of the Consul, her husband, 
her's have no p inted ruler, to be followed, or to 
guide her. 

I'.er four greatest assetsnre versatility- 
adaptability- capability - and amiability. 

She should be versatile - quick to le rn a new 
language or new customs. Otherwise she cannot carry 
on the needs of th daily lifa of her household. 
She nust send her husband to the Consulate each day 
well fed and well groomed and her children to school, 
and in order to do this she should know th-; language 
of the markets and the shops r.'hich is ::ore often the 
patois or dialect ^f the country than the polite 
language of its drawing rooms. Sh must learn to train 
her servants in the native or local dialect. It the 
same time she IIBS to be familiar with the ir.ore educated 
speech of the country. 

:}he nust be adaptable in order to be able to 
make a home i n the wilderness, or in any odd corner 
of the world, as well <s in the civ lized centers. .j^ /^ % t „;( 
3he must be ab:'«-to pack her pet Lares and PBnates ( ' * *" ~, 
at a moment's notice, to be transported to some new 
and far-distant post. And smile when the broken 
fragments are taken ^gain from their boxes. She 
must be capable of reassembling them in their- new 
surroundings - to patch them up and eke out their 
deficiencies under new and strange conditions and 

".he should be able to be an interior decorator - 
a nurse - a cook - a good hostess - even an amateur 
doctor; in fact, a jack-of-all (feminine) trades, she 
never kows what she nay be called upnn to do for her 
family or servants when more expert help is unavailable. 

She must be amiable and tactful in ell her 
feminize contacts - to the clerks_pf the cdfeulate, 
the guests in her house, the stranger within her gates 
or those of the Consulate. . ^^y^ 1 ' ~t 

/ 4>r U «» ^ 

She needs nerve and/courage to face riots, revolutions, 
or earthly upheavals, side by side with her husband as well 
as to gitoe him the daily help he needs from her. 

In fact, like the Consul, who must be "all things 
to all men", the Consul's wife must be all things at all- 


C. Service: smoked by more than 50 percent of the population. It was a 
depressing, degraded sort of place. The people were poor. 
Yunnan province was run by a local warlord named Lung Yun. 
The central government hardly had any impact there at all . 
The local currency was not the central government currency. 
It was local currency. We either used Yunnan dollars which 
amounted to very little, great wads of them, or we used 
Indochinese piasters which were really the only currency that 
had any value. 

You could see opium growing in the spring all around, 
outside the walls. Opium poppies are very beautiful. The 
people had no livelihood really. There was no education, there 
was no public health care for them. There wasn't in any of China. 
Little girl children were still often let die. A few little 
girls still had their feet bound. This was 1933. Now, foot- 
binding had been outlawed when the Manchus fell [1911], but 
Yunnan was way, way off from the mainstream of Chinese life. 

I just found it very, very depressing. This is why when I 
went back to China — you know, of course, later in Peking and 
Shanghai life was different — but why when we went back to Kunming 
in 1975 I could not believe the changes. It was as though hundreds 
of years had been jumped in the last twenty-five or thirty. 

The foreign community in 1933, in Yunnanfu, consisted of the 
British consul general, the French consul, the American vice 
consul. The head of the customs was American. The head of the 
salt gabelle was — oh he was a Cor si can, French. The head of the 
post office was a Frenchman. In other words all the top civil 
jobs were held by foreigners instead of Chinese. There was a 
scattering of missionaries. There were a number of Greeks who 
had come up when the railroad was built who stayed on. 

[end tape 1, side 2; begin tape 2, side 1] 

C. Service: As I look back it was a very exotic place, but I do not think I 
was prepared to appreciate all the things that I should have. 
There were a number of French business men — [Dog barks.] 

Levenson: Excuse me. Come in. [to the dog] 
C. Service: Poor thing, he wants in or out. 

There were a number of import-export people. Goodness knows 
what they really imported and exported. There was an awful lot 
of gun selling in Yunnan. Also opium was being shipped out. 
The League of Nations sent around somebody to look into the opium 
traffic, because it was illegal. There was a Frenchman who had 
an Annamese wife, a charming sort, both of them, with four sons 
who were at school in France for the most part, and they were into 
the opium business up to their necks. 


C. Service: There were all kinds of shady things going on in Yunnan. Maybe 

that was just the way the whole thing was being run in those days. 
There were one or two Germans. One German ran the local — I suppose 
it was an electric power company. There might be lights if we sat 
up till 2:00 a.m., which we didn't. 

Levenson: Why did you have to sit up till 2:00 a.m.? 

C. Service: Because we didn't get any light until then. The filaments in the 
bulbs just flickered. So, all of us used pressure lamps. We used 
pressure lamps, petromex, or something like that, because we really 
could not get any electric light. I think the consulate had a 
phone, but there weren't any home phones. If we wanted to communi 
cate with somebody we sent them a little chit and we got an answer 
back. We had a coolie who spent his days running around with chits. 

When I went out to dinner I went in a sedan chair. The 
consulate owned a sedan chair. They had four bearers: two to 
carry, one going ahead with a lantern, calling out the great lady 
was coming, in Chinese, and 'one following. This was really Charles 
Shadrach Reed's chair, but obviously I was going to ride in it if 
three of us went out to dinner. If he went alone he often rode in 
it. Jack rode a bicycle or walked. Mostly people walked or they'd 
hire a rickshaw. 

We had picnics . There was a tennis court at the sportif 
club, le Cercle Sportif Fran?ais . We made our own life. We had 
constant dinner parties and picnics on Sunday going out to the 
country. The countryside was beautiful. There are beautiful 
temples around Kunming. 

Every so often some new foreigner would come to town. He'd 
come up on the railway — or she would — and stay. Sometimes people 
would just turn up; we often didn't know what their business was. 
They'd be there. Then they'd disappear again. Either people who 
were sort of adventurous types who wanted to see something different, 
or who were in who knows what kind of business. 

I was not terribly well. I do not know whether it was the 
altitude, whether it was psychological or what, but by spring I 
was feeling very badly. A doctor came to Yunnan from Shanghai and 
he examined me and said he thought I needed another operation. I 
really don't think I did at all, as I look back. He said I had 
ovarian cysts. I think I was glad to leave Yunnan, though, for a 
while. I think it was terribly hard on Jack, but I wanted to go. 

So, I went to Shanghai in the April after we'd been married 
six months. I went to Shanghai and I spent the summer with Jack's 
parents . 


Getting Used to China 

C. Service: I decided I should get a job in Shanghai: I had a few months 
there. I didn't have an operation, but I wasn't going back 
right away because of the weather, various reasons, because the 
trip was hard in summer and the railroad sometimes broke. 

Anyway, I got a Job tutoring two Chinese girls. I don't know 
how I got it, perhaps through the foreign Y[MCA] or something like 
that. I went off to a very Chinese home. There were two girls; I 
don ' t know that they knew much English , and I knew no Chinese . 
The only thing that I remember about — I don't think I did this 
more than four or five weeks — was that one day the head of the 
household came in. He may have been their father. He may have 

been their grandfather. Whoever he was, he was the too man. 
These two girls jumped up from their chairs, and they threw them 
selves prostrate on the floor with their faces down. 

Levenson: Was that the kowtow? 

C. Service: I suppose, but more than that, they just lay there! It was the 
kowtow, I suppose. But prostrate, flat out! I would not have 
been more surprised if they'd gotten up and jumped out of the 
window . 

Levenson: What sort of clothes did they wear? 

C. Service: They had little foreign girls' clothes on. Teenage, they were 
teenage, young teenage children. They just wore foreign style 
clothes . 

This man came in in a regular Chinese gown, long gown, the 
way Chinese men dressed then. I got up from my chair and I said 
how do you do in English, but I was so dumbfounded — I want to put 
this in because that was really something I wouldn't have believed 
possible in Shanghai in the thirties. This was an old-fashioned 
family. I'm sure there were probably more than one wife and 
maybe concubines. I don't know. It was a large, extended family. 

Levenson: That's astonishing. 

C. Service: Isn't that amazing? Yes, I want to put that in. 

Going down to Shanghai was a good thing. I realized Shanghai 
was glittering and exotic and a huge, big foreign city, but I 
really was happy to think I was going back to Yunnan, back to Jack, 
and back — just back. 

C. Service: I'd gotten used to China. That, I think, la whnt had happened. 

I got used to China. I saw things in Shanghai too which appalled 
me, but I'd become used to it. I'd begun to be interested in the 
Chinese people, in the sense of thinking of them as people, not 
as just an amorphous mass. 

I can remember riding in a rickshaw one day in Shanghai; 
doing one of the worst things I think I ever did in my life. 
It was a hot, blistering day. You were supposed to pay a certain 
amount for every quarter mile and I did pay that. I paid that 
exact amount. I paid maybe a little bit extra, but I didn't 
really give the rickshaw puller enough for the day and the 
weather. He begged me to give him a little more and I wouldn't. 
Now, wasn't this awful? This was horrible. 

Levenson: Why did you do that? It doesn't sound like you. 

C. Service: I don't know. It doesn't sound like me and I don't know why I 
did it. I really don't know why. I could say it was because 
people always said, "Don't overpay them." The foreigners always 
gave more than Chinese. But, I don't think that was the real 
reason. I don't know why. It has bothered me from that day to 
this that I didn't give this man another, an extra ten cents. It 
was so little. But, I began to think more of these people after 

Levenson: Did it shock you at the time? 

C. Service: It bothered me at the time. I really cannot explain it, except 

that it was a very mean thing for me to do. I thought about it — 
afterwards, right away afterwards, after he'd gone I wished that 
I'd given him more. Then I thought to myself it's better to over 
pay them than to underpay them. It's better to overpay a little 
bit. Because no matter what you paid them they had a terrible 

I thought about this when I lived in India [1950-1951]. 
When we'd come out of a restaurant in India, in Delhi, and there 
would be lots of beggars, I always would try to give at least one 
or two of them something. People would say, "Don't give them 
anything. They're just here begging." I always thought to myself, 
although I didn't say it, "Here we've come out of a restaurant, 
stuffed with food. No matter what — whether they were putting it 
on or what — they had wretched, wretched lives." You know, nothing 
could give them a good life. 

This rickshaw rcan — I've often thought of this — if there were 
an afterworld and I was going to be sent to hell for anything, I 
would be sentenced for underpaying that rickshaw man. I don't 
think of it very often anymore, but I'm thinking of it now. 

C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 


Anyway, I went back then to Kunming after that summer. I did not 
need an operation as it turned out when I got to Shanghai, but I 
stayed in Shanghai through the rainy season. I went back in 
September and very soon thereafter I became pregnant. Our 
daughter was born the next July [1935]. 

I'd gotten used to China. I liked it. I liked that winter. 
I began to enjoy the life we were leading. We also moved out of 
the consulate. Charles Shadrach Reed was transferred. We got 
Arthur Ringwalt who was a China hand. Arthur Ringwalt was a 
very nice chap and he has remained a good friend all of our lives. 
We saw him this summer. 

Did you try to learn Chinese? 

I did try but I never learned very much. I got to the point 
where I could talk to the servants and I could go out shopping. 
I could do anything like that. I even took some lessons from 
an old teacher. 

Levenson: Were you learning Mandarin? 

C. Service: Yes, Mandarin. They talked a kind of Mandarin in Yunnan. But, 
he wanted to teach me names for officials and he wasn't a good 
teacher. I'm not good at languages and I think my hearing, even 
then, was never too good. 

C. Service: We were talking about fear. I was not well my first year or so 
in China and I was frightened in that sense. The long journey 
frightened me in a sense, but I was never frightened of the 
Chinese. I never felt I would be harmed. I never felt the servants 
would harm me. I never minded going shopping by myself. I didn't 
mind going out in a rickshaw by myself or walking on the street. 
I never had any fear all the years I lived in China that I would 
be any way harmed or injured. I didn't have any fear when we had 
to get up and leave because the Communists were coming. [1935] 
Actually, I didn't feel that I should go very much, but everybody 
was going. I had no choice. 

So, my main problems in China my first year were my health 
and the fact that it was a culture shock — it really was — and that 
I was terribly homesick for my parents and for my life I'd left. 
It took me about a year before I became willing to realize that 
I had a new life and it was a fascinating one and that although 
I still thought of home, I didn't think of it in those nostaligc 
terms anymore. I'm going to have to stop now because my throat 
is beginning to tighten up. 

[end tape 2, side 1] 


Brushed by the Long March 

[Interview 3: October 5, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

C. Service: It was during this winter, 1934-35, that we began to hear about 

the Communists. We began to hear rumors that the Communists — this 
meant nothing to me at the time — had broken out of their stronghold 
in Klangsi province and were going to be exterminated by Chiang 
Kai-shek's troops. 

Levenson: Where was this information coming from? 

C. Service: Well, it came from Peking, I suppose, and Shanghai, the reports 
were sent. Also, there was telegraphic communication between 
Yunnan and the outside world. We did have the telegraph. Mail 
came . We got mail maybe once a week or every ten days . 

Levenson: Were these Nationalist reports generally believed? 

C. Service: I suppose so. I suppose the reports were put out by the central 
government. Yes, I suppose these reports of extermination 
campaigns were put out by the central government and they were 
generally believed, because nobody could imagine that the 
Communists wouldn't be defeated, wouldn't be exterminated. 
Nevertheless, they never seemed to be quite exterminated. By 
spring the Communists had come down through parts of Kwangtung 
Hunan, Kwangsi, and into Kweichow provinces, come across, and they 
were coming into Yunnan province. (I've looked up those provinces.) 
We kept hearing this. There was a great deal of discussion amongst 
the foreign consuls in Yunnanfu about what we were going to do if 
the Communists came towards the city, because by this time it was 
obvious that they were going to come through the province, that 
they were coming through. 

All of April — this was April, 1935 — we kept getting rumors. 
Missionaries came down to Kunming who were either trying to 
get out of their path or Chinese would come and say where they 
were. There were all kinds of rumors filtering in. 

But, anyway, about the middle of April we were told that the 
women and children might have to leave. Now, I was pregnant. I 
was expecting my baby the middle of July. I'd gotten a lot of 
things sent out from home from Montgomery Ward's and my mother had 
sent me things. Jack's mother had sent things from Shanghai. So, 
I packed one trunk and packed suitcases. The idea was that if we 
had to leave we would all go on the train down to Indochina. Then 
whether or not I'd go to Shanghai was problematical. We would see. 


C. Service: Anyway, on April 29, we were told that no, the Communists were not 
coming towards the city, that they had turned away from the city 
and were going north and so, we wouldn't have to leave. Either 
the twenty-eighth or twenty-ninth we were told this. Well, I 
did not unpack because it was lovely spring weather. By this 
time we were living in the mission compound belonging to the 
China Mission Society. We were living in the house of the 
English doctor and his wife who'd gone to England on leave. 
The baby was going to be delivered by an English midwife, Miss 
Enid Tindall, attached to this hospital. We had a lovely garden 
and I just decided I'd spend the day in the garden. I didn't do 
any gardening. But, it was so pretty and I didn't feel like stay 
ing inside and unpacking, so I didn't. 

Shortly after midnight — this would have been about 1:00 a.m. 
on the thirtieth of April — there was a great banging on the compound 
gate. A messenger from the consulate came to tell Jack to get up, 
me to get up, get ready to leave, the Communists were coming 
towards the city. I would have to leave. There would be a special 
train to take the women and children which would leave in the 
morning about 7:00 a.m. or 8:00 a.m.* 

So, we got up. Next door to us lived a Dr. Joseph Rock. He 
was a famous man in China. He had been sent out by the National 
Geographic Society. He was a great naturalist. He had wandered 
around China toward the Tibetan border and found all kinds of new, 
rare, and exotic plants. He was a botanist and an explorer. He 
wanted to leave too because he had some very valuable things he 
wanted to take, books and papers especially, and he was not in good 
health. It was decided that Rock would go with the women. A few 
other men would go. 

Jack went around notifying all the American women and children, 
missionaries. There weren't many, but they were scattered. The 
British were doing the same and the French were doing the same, 
and the other foreigners. 

I hadn't unpacked, so I got together a few other things. We 
had to take enough food for three days to eat on the train. We 
had some kittens. We had a Siamese cat and Jack's mother wanted 
some kittens, so I decided to take two kittens with me in a 
basket. I took all the baby things. 

*Cy Carney's letter seems to say we left on April 29th. But the 
newspaper clipping from Peking confirms my recollection that I 
left Kunming on the morning of April 30, 1935. C.S. [See next 




Yunn-anfu, April 30th, 1 a.m. 
Dear Service: 

Tandon his I just arrived to say 

that a special irain will leave tcnaor- 


ro.v at 7.44 a. ip. Apparently 3000 

i • 
communists are at Qhaooanch 1 iao, say 

thirty li away from here. 7000 more 

at Yangling. which. I believe is near 

Perhaos Carol had better get -on 

V - 
board. Can you notify Arnold. I 

shall write to the Kvreichow Guild. 
Harding, I take it, is caring for the 
C.I.M. but I am going to see him to 
ma'-ce sure. 



Accompanied By Child-; 

ren, Start By Train 

For Haiphong 


PEIPING, May 1.— Messages, 

; from Yunnanfu, capital of the 

I province of Yunnan, state that the 

i majority of foreign women and 

children there evacuated the city 

t»y train yesterday morning, going 

to Haiphong. The rest! are fol-I 

lov/ir.g as soon aa possible. 

The vanguards of the- Red 
forces in Yunnan are now report- 
ad to he 15 miles north-east of the 
provincial capital, with Nanking 
troopv in close 'pursuit. 

The wife of one American Con 
sular official evacuated, and Con 
sular officials themselves are 
reported to be ready to evacuate, 
with their archive-s, in the event 
of a more serious emergency. — 

Information Sought 
JCWEIYANG. May 1.— A request 
for information concerning the 
whereabouts of Misses Trefren ami 
Bush, two missionaries stationed at 
Annan, South-West Kweichow, was ; 
contained in a telegram from the : 
American Consul at Yunnanfu re 
ceived here to-day by • the China 
Inland Mission. 

No nevvs, however, is obtainable 
locally concerning the present 
whereabouts . of the two women. — 

•S I 



C. Service: That morning it was pouring rain, really pouring. We were all 
down at the station. The one daily train was waiting. We were 
all put on this train and off we went. The English nurses were 
on, everybody. I don't think any foreign women stayed behind. 

It took three days to get down to Haiphong. We didn't know 
what was going to happen. We didn't know what was happening back 
in Yunnanfu. Sandbags were being brought in. They were going to 
fortify the city. The men were staying. The Chinese were forti 
fying the city. 

The Communists did not take the city, but they came within 
a few miles of it. They did not want the city. What they wanted 
was to get across the Yangtze River and they wanted to escape any 
encircling armies. I do not think Lung Yun was going to fight 
them for a minute. They got across the Yangtze where it makes 
a deep bow down into Yunnan province. They got across and went 
on — continued their Long March along the border of Szechwan, 
across the grasslands, across Kansu, and finally into Shensi, 
and to Yenan. 

Of course, all of this is interesting in light of what has 
happened in future years. Because these people were considered 
a ragtag group. Everybody just assumed that even if they escaped 
the encirclement they had no future. 

I stayed two weeks in Haiphong and by that time the danger — if 
there ever was a danger — had passed. So, I came back to Yunnanfu 
with all my things except for the kittens. I put the kittens on 
a coastal ship and sent them to Shanghai! [Chuckle] I got on the 
train, went back with all my baby clothes and my trunks and so on. 

The Chiang Kai-sheks Show Solidarity with Lung Yun 

C. Service: Then, Chiang Kai-shek and Madame Chiang Kai-shek came to visit 

Yunnanfu. They were going to show solidarity with Lung Yun — the 
Communists, by this time, had disappeared. The Chiangs were coming 
down to show their strength, the Nationalists' strength. This 
happened in May, [1935], A reception was given and I've always 
been sorry that only the consuls were invited. Anyway, we were 
not invited to meet them and I've always been a little bit sorry 
that I didn't meet them. Jack met them later in Chungking. 

Then Virginia, our daughter, was born on July 3, [1935]. 
She was born in the Church Mission Society Hospital. 

Levenson: Was there great excitement at the time of the visit, the Chiangs' 


C. Service: When Chiang Kai-shek came, yes. All the main streets were repaved 
with big, flat, paving stones. The city was cleaned up. There 
was much excitement. The Chiangs came and stayed for two or three 
days, I think. They flew — by this time they had an airplane line. 
The China National Aviation Company had linked up with Yunnan. 
There was a plane once a week. I don't know how the Chiang Kai-sheks 
flew there. They must have had a Chinese military plane. There 
was an airport of sorts. This had all happened in this past year. 

Levenson: Was there a real feeling of Yunnan's belonging to China or of the 
central government's being effective or was this a token sort of 

C. Service: I think people felt that the central government was becoming more 
effective. Yes. I just thought it was doing very well, but what 
did I know about it? I think it was becoming more effective — the 
fact that they could come to Yunnan at all. I was not very 
conscious of any of these political factors. 

Roy Service's Death in Shanghai. 1935 
[tape off] 

C. Service: In early August of 1935 we heard from Jack's mother that Jack's 

father was probably fatally ill. He had not been well all summer 
and nobody really knew quite what was wrong. Anyway in, I think, 
early September Jack flew to Shanghai. Now the airline, as I 
stated, had just that year come to Yunnan. Jack flew to Shanghai 
and his father died on September 29. All the three sons were 
there because they were all in China. Dick had graduated from 
college. He'd graduated from Pomona and he had come out to Shanghai. 
Bob was down in Macao. So, all three of the Service sons were with 
their father when he died. 

Mrs. Service was left very poorly off, not only because of 
the Depression, but because Mr. Service had been let out of the 
YMCA because they didn't have enough funds. He had been working 
for the China famine relief. 

But, in any event, the Y had finally decided that they would 
reinstate everybody let out, for pension reasons, as of October 1, 
1935. Robert Roy Service died on September 29. Mrs. Service did 
not get a pension. Later on there was some arrangement made whereby 
the Y paid her $50 a month, but this was simply done through the 
good offices of Eugene Barnett — he's the father, by the way, of 
Bob and Doak and DeWitt Barnett. By this time, he was in America 


C. Service: and he was in the national office of the YMCA. I think that he 

probably said something like, "Look, you've got to do something 

for Grace Service. They devoted their lives to the Y in China and 
she has been left in a very bad way." 

Jack's Foreign Service Commission; off to Peking 

C. Service: Just after this, on October 1 or about in there, the Foreign 
Service commissions came through after almost three years of 
waiting. Two and three quarters years after Jack passed the 
exams, the Foreign Service was taking in new people. So, Jack 
received his Foreign Service commission and he was assigned to 
go to Peking — to go to language school. As he was in Shanghai 
they wanted him to go right from there. But, he wrote back 
and — or wired back — and asked if he could return to Yunnan to 
help pack up and bring Virginia and me to Peking. 

At that time I was having a great problem with breast 
abscesses. I don't know that you want this. I really could 
not make the move alone. I had five breast operations. There 
was no penicillin, of course, in those days. In fact, there was 
very little ether in Yunnanfu. But, they did have enough to give 
me some. The Chinese doctor had to lance all these abscesses. 

So, Jack got back to Yunnan sometime after the middle of 
October. He came back by sea. It was decided we would leave 
about the middle of November and that I would fly with Virginia 
to Shanghai, because there was also no smallpox vaccine in 
Yunnanfu right then, and I really didn't want to make that long, 
two-weeks trip down through Indochina and on the boats and so on 
with her without some protection. 

So, I flew with Virginia to Shanghai. We flew from Yunnanfu 
to Chungking. There I stayed with missionary friends. That was 
a Ford Trimotor — I flew in a Ford Trimotor from Yunnanfu to 
Chungking. It was what the China civil aviation was using. 
[Chuckle] Then, the next day I flew from Chungking to Hankow 
in something called a Loening, I think. I'll have to check this. 
Anyway, we flew right down through the Yangtze Gorges, just above 
the water. It was magnificent. But, I really hardly saw it 
because I was feeding the baby bottles. 

Levenson: Beautiful. 


C. Service: I'd had to wean her because of the abscesses and I was fixing 

bottles and I was doing all sorts of things. But, I did look out; 
we were the only passengers. There was only room for four passen 

Then, I stayed that night with Mr. and Mrs. Paul Josselyn. 
He was the consul general in Hankow. The next day I flew in 
something called a Stinson, I think, from Hankow to Shanghai. 
So, it was a three day flight, but I got to Shanghai. Jack 
came around by boat bringing two cats as usual. [Chuckle] 

Levenson: Were these single engine planes? 

C. Service: No, the Trimotor, Ford Trimotor, had three. [Laughter] It must 
have had three motors, but the other two little things had only 
one motor. They were little teensy planes. I'm not fond of 
flying. Strangely enough, I didn't feel any more fear in those 
little planes than I do in a great big one. 

Jack met me in Shanghai and in early December we went to 
Peking and Jack started his language study. 

Life in Peking 

C. Service: Now, I could tell you something about Peking in those days. I 

could tell you about all the people who were there in the American 

Levenson: I'd like that. 

C. Service: Nelson Trusler Johnson was the ambassador. His wife was Jane. 

She was a very kind and warm person. She was only in her thirties, 
had two small children of her own, was goodness itself to all of 
us. The counselor at the embassy was Frank P. Lockhart, and his 
wife Ruby. They were just about the kindest people you could 
imagine, especially Mr. Lockhart. They were wonderful to all of 

Peking, you can't imagine — it was small. Not small like 
Yunnan, but the embassy was a small, happy group of people. 
Well, not everybody was happy there. That is quite true, but 

See Appendix 1. 


C. Service: compared to embassies today it was very informal. Everybody knew 
everybody else well. We all lived close together. 

The first secretary was a bachelor named George Merrell 
(later ambassador to Ethiopia) who was noted for the parties he 
gave. He was wonderful. He married shortly after we arrived, 
married Nathalie Choate from Boston, of the famous Choate family. 
She was a widow. She had been married to a Choate. 

Then there was Bob [Robert Lacy] Smyth who was, I guess, 
second secretary, an old China hand. He was a bachelor. Larry 
[Laurence] Salisbury who was a Japan language man. The embassy 
always had one Japan language man. His mother lived with him. 
He also was second secretary and a bachelor. 

Then there was Paul W. Meyer and his wife Harriet. He must 
have been a second secretary too. Could there have been that many? 
It doesn't matter. Paul was in charge of the language students. 
Then there was 0. Edmund Clubb, who had a terrible time during the 
McCarthy era, and his wife Mariann. It's spelled with two n's at 
the end. Edmund Clubb was a third secretary. 

There was Cecil Lyon who was a third secretary too. His wife 
was Elsie Grew, the daughter of Ambassador [Joseph C. ] Grew. They 
had two little girls, one born in Peking. Elsie and I became very 
good, close friends and we have remained close friends, even though 
the situation between Mr. Grew and Jack was not very happy at times, 
not personally but just because of circumstances. But, Elsie and I 
have remained warm friends. 

Jim Penfield met us at the station. Jim Penfield was a 
language student, James K. Penfield. He later became ambassador 
to Iceland. Edward Rice was another language student. He'd just 
arrived. His last career post was consul general in Hong Kong 

Then there, as a clerk, was Philip D. Sprouse who had gotten 
a clerkship somehow, because Cordell Hull was from Tennessee, I 
guess, and because Phil was from Tennessee. Phil later took the 
exams for the Foreign Service, became a Foreign Service officer, 
and his last post was ambassador to Cambodia [1962]. 

We've all known each other for many, many years. Jack and I 
arrived late for the language course because Jack came back to 
Yunnanfu for me. There was a third language student named Charles 
Millet. Of course, there was a great joke amongst the Chinese to 
have a Rice and a Millet [laughter] as language students. Millet's 
first wife, Billie, died. He remarried and later left the Foreign 


C. Service: This was the embassy except for some American office staff. I 
guess that was it. But, they were included in everything too. 
There were no lines of demarcation. One of the most sought after 
girls in Peking, by all the bachelors, was Roberta Duncan who came 
out as a secretary. 

Levenson: You have answered a question I was going to ask you, but I'm going 
to ask it anyway! You said quite firmly that there was little 
rank and status distinction in the American embassy. Was it like 
that in the other embassies? 

C. Service: I didn't really know anybody in the other embassies because Jack 
was a language student. Our own social life was limited practi 
cally to the American embassy because language students were 
really not supposed to have much of a social life. There was 
rank, of course. But, we were invited by everybody in our own 
mission to dinner. We invited them back, and we were all good 
friends. But, we did not belong to the Paoraachang Race Club 
where so many people went. We did not belong to the Peking Club. 
So, we really did not meet many other foreigners, except that Jack 
knew some because of language work. We did not have much social 
contact outside of the American embassy and the American community. 
Now, this seems rather strange today. 

The military attache was Colonel Joseph W. Stilwell and the 
assistant military attache was Captain David D. Barrett. It's 
really true that all of us have known each other, you know, for 
a long, long time. These people who later became involved in the 
problems of China and in the McCarthy era and were accused of all 
sorts of things, many of us were in Peking in those days. 

Levenson: What can you tell me about Stilwell at this period? 

C. Service: Well, we barely knew them; we knew their daughter Nancy. Their 
oldest daughter Nancy was in her early twenties. We knew her 
quite well. Mrs. Stilwell did not — I think we were all asked 
around to tea. She led a rather quiet life of her own. I don't 
recall that I saw Mrs. Stilwell more than a few times. I don't 
suppose I saw him more than a few times. We saw Dave Barrett 

There was also the marine guard. There were quite a number 
of officers in the marine guard. We knew them. There were 
marine language students and there were army language students 
and we knew them very well. Two of them who became our very 
close friends were Samuel B. Griffith and his wife Belle. He 
had a terrific record in the war. He was passed over for general, 
but he did get his B[rigadier] Gfeneral] when he retired. And a 
finer officer there never was, but he made some enemies. Belle 
was, is, a very beautiful woman. 


C. Service: There were very few differentiations. It's true that when the 
Johnsons gave parties they did not invite the language students 
unless it was a general party for everybody, but they invited 
us all at least once to dinner. Then, if there was some big 
general party we were always asked. There wasn't much pressure 
put on us . 

Our older son, Robert, was born in Peking. Bob was born 
February 16, 1937. Jane Johnson loaned me her baby carriage. 
We were treated like family. 

When we arrived the Lyons were going on home leave, and so 
they offered us their house to live in, including their amah. 
Their little daughter, Alice, was just nine months older than 
Ginny. We happily accepted because there were no embassy 
quarters for us as language students. The house was in San 
Kuan Miao which was an old Chinese temple which at some point — it 
was in the legation quarter — had been taken over by the Americans 
and had been made into residences, all the various little temple 
places. So, a great many of the people of the American embassy 
lived in San Kuan Miao in charming Chinese houses which were 
rather falling apart but which were kept up nicely; and there 
was a swimming pool which we could all use in the summer. 

The Americans had two compounds. They had the regular 
embassy compound where the Johnsons lived and the Lockharts and 
where the chancery was and where Bob Smyth and Larry Salisbury 
lived. They had regular, big, foreign style houses. It was 
next to the marine guard compound where there were also regular 
houses that had been built for the colonel and various officers. 

San Kuan Miao, then, was for anybody else. The bachelors 
lived there and married couples who had high enough rank. Or 
rather they just squeezed you in until there weren't any houses, 
and the people left over had to find places to live outside. 

We lived in the Lyons' house three months, and then we 
found a place up near Coal Hill which belonged to a German. 
The house is still there today. San Kuan Miao is a wreck. 
The Chinese have not kept it up. I think they'll tear it down 
someday and rightly so. The city wall [gesturing fingertips 
to fingertips] went right beside San Kuan Miao and today there 
is no city wall. So, this sort of rabbit warren of little old 
houses, they're lived in by Chinese, but I'm sure they're going 
to be destroyed and modern housing put in. 

The house we lived in near Coal Hill, which was right across 
the moat from the Forbidden City, was a very big, old, elegant 
Chinese official's house, I suppose. It had an interior courtyard 


C. Service: and it had a front courtyard. And there was a high wall all 

around. There was a little extra house that could be used for 
a guest room. 

I have no idea what we paid for rent, because we couldn't 
have gotten much rent allowance. You know, the government not 
only pays your salary when you're overseas, but they give you 
a rental allowance, and it couldn't have been very much. Jack's 
salary was $2500 a year, so the rental allowance, who knows? 
We were very happy because that was more than we got in Yunnan. 

Jack was a language student for two years. We'd no sooner 
arrived in Peking — I think it was about December 4 — than a few 
days after that they had the student riots [December 7, 1935]. 
Jack will tell about this when he talks, because this was one 
of the first things that happened against the Japanese encroach 
ment. There were student riots. 

It was at that time that we first met Edgar Snow. He was 
in Peking, and he was, of course, as any newspaper writer would 
be, interested in going out and seeing what was happening. Jack 
and the others went to see too. I don't know what they found out, 
if anything. This is considered one of the beginning points of 
the United Front — where the students were trying to force 
the hand of Chiang Kai-shek against the Japanese, not to keep on 
retreating and retreating. 

Life in Peking was remarkably pleasant. We didn't know it 
was the end of an era. At least I didn't know. I didn't know 
that the life that we lived then was all just going to disappear 
very quickly and forever. There were the old shops to go to, 
full of beautiful things. We had rickshaws. The camels came 
into Peking. It was like an Arabian Night's dream and we all 
loved it. There were places to go and eat. Lots of foreigners 
were living all around the place. Many foreigners who came to 
Peking rented a house and just stayed on. It was a kind of a 
lotus-eater's land. 

Our Summer in the Western Hills 

C. Service: Jack's brother, Dick, had gotten a job as a clerk in the 

consulate in Fuchow. His mother, by this time a widow, went 
to live with him. In February Dick became sick. He had his 
appendix out . When they operated they found he had TB of the 
abdomen. He could not keep on working. Mrs. Service did not 
know what to do. It was decided that they would come to Peking 
and live with us. 


C. Service: So, they did come and Dick was in the hospital for a month while 
the doctors decided what the treatment should be. But, the 
treatment in those days was just rest. We decided that we 
would move out to the Western Hills, fourteen miles outside of 
Peking, and that all of us would live there. Mrs. Service was 
going to hire a male nurse for Dick. 

We found a house out in the Western Hills that belonged to 
a Chinese-German combination family called Wang. They were quite 
well known in Peking. He was an official. They had six beautiful 
daughters, half German, half Chinese. They were all beautiful. 
They were all simply beautiful. Some would look more western, 
some Chinese. Anyway, we rented this house from the Wang family. 
We were out there for six months, from May, 1936, until October, 

Dick did get well. He's never had a recurrence. The house 
was about four hundred feet up the hill off the plain. We could 
look out over Peking. 

Levenson: Beautiful. 

C. Service: Jack's Chinese teacher came out everyday by bus and Jack had his 
lessons. I didn't like it as much as I should have. There again 
I think I had the same sensation I had in Yunnanfu that I was 
isolated. I really wanted to be in Peking. However, it was a 
nice place, and we had a very happy time together. My mother-in-law 
and I were very good friends, and Dick — we've always been good 
friends . 

In October we moved back to Peking, and then Dick lived with 
us through half the next year in that little extra house we had in 
the Coal Hill house. He was making a complete recovery. Jack's 
mother stayed until sometime during the winter, and then she 
went to Chungking with her husband's ashes and put them in the 
same grave with her baby daughter who had died going up the 
Yangtze River in 1906. 

The Marco Polo Incident 

C. Service: Life went on very pleasantly. By the summer of 1937, my father 
had retired and my parents decided to come to visit. I hadn't 
seen them for four years. I was thrilled. Ginny was two years 
old. Bob was five months. I was to go to meet them at Chinwangtao, 
the port where the army transports came in. It is north of 
Peitaiho and just south of the Great Wall. 


C. Service: Elsie Lyon went there every summer with her two children and she 
invited Mariann Clubb and me to come visit her. I had gone the 
summer before, and I went again this summer taking Ginny with me. 

Well, on the Fourth of July there was a big party at the 
American embassy. Then, Jack and I went to another party that 
night and we went swimming, I suppose at San Kuan Miao, about 
2:00 a.m. 

Then we went home and the next day, July 5, Jack had a 
terrible sore throat. I was going to go to Chinwangtao on the 
sixth. I was leaving Bob in Peking with Jack, with the amah, 
and I was taking Ginny by myself. I got a doctor around, an 
American doctor who was connected with the marine guard, and he 
said Jack had a terrible sore throat. It was obvious Jack did 
have a terrible sore throat. [Chuckle] He looked in his throat, 
said, "Terrible sore throat." 

On the morning of the sixth I went to Chinwangtao. This 
was July 6, 1937. That night the war — really the Second World 
War — started out at the Marco Polo bridge. The Chinese name 
is Lukouch'iao. 

In Chinwangtao on the morning of the seventh we heard there 
had been an encounter at the Marco Polo bridge — we did not realize 
the war was starting, that this was it — and that the railway had 
been cut, and that the Japanese were encroaching. I also got a 
telegram that morning saying that Jack was in the P[ eking] U[nion] 
M[edical] C[ollege], which was the big Rockefeller hospital, with 
scarlet fever. That's how he happened to have a terrible throat. 

Levenson: That was really terrifying in those days. 

C. Service: Well, it was, and I had left Bob behind, you see. I thought, 

"Dear God." My parents were due about the eleventh. I thought, 
"Am I going to stay here; am I going home?" But, I couldn't go 
home. The railroad had stopped, or we heard it had. There was 
nothing I could possibly do except stay right where I was, meet 
my parents, and hope to get back to Peking. 

My parents arrived. They, of course, had heard about the 
fighting, but the transport didn't stop. It came and unloaded 
people. They were bringing troops for the 15th Infantry in 
Tientsin. Once a month or so a transport came in bringing 
supplies and replacements and taking people away. 

Well, my parents arrived. The trains, then, had started 
running again. We were told we could get through to Peking. 
So, we got on the train that same noon. Elsie decided she 
would go back to Peking and leave her kids — her two daughters — 
leave them in Chinwangtao and she'd go back to see Cecil. 


C. Service: We all got on the train, and we got as far as Tientsin. We 

spent the night in a hotel in Tientsin, and the next day we got 
on the train and went to Peking. We got there about noon. Cecil 
came to meet — He thought he was going to meet me and tell me 
how Jack was and so on. He was absolutely horrified to see Elwie 
get off the train. He said, "You've got to go right back. Peking 
is no place to stay." Well, she did stay two or three days, and 
then she did go back to Chinwangtao. 

But, we had all gotten to Peking safely. My parents were 
there. Jack was getting better. We no longer lived at Coal Hill. 
We had moved into a house in the south compound of the PUMC. I 
rented a room for my parents at a nearby house because there 
wasn't room in the house we had. 

So, things went along all right. But, the Japanese were 
getting closer and closer. You could hear the fighting going 
on outside the city. You could hear the cannons and the guns 
or whatever. But, you know it was unreal. Food kept coming 
into the city. All the people who lived outside at various 
places were told to move into the city. They did, and people 
from outlying areas, missionaries and so on, were told to move 
into the city. 

Well, I'm not sure exactly when it was, but sometime, I 
suppose later that month, the Japanese just took Peking. 

Levenson: Where were the Chinese troops? 

C. Service: Well, they left. They left. They weren't there. They just 
vanished. I don't think there were many Chinese troops, and 
anyway they couldn't have done anything against the Japanese. 
At that point they really couldn't have. They just filtered 

We were told one day that we would all have to move into 
the Legation Quarter, that the Japanese were going to take the 
city. So, everybody outside was assigned a place in the legation 
quarter. We were assigned to the Lyons' house because we had 
lived there before. I had my parents and Elsie wasn't there, 
so there was room for my father and my mother and for me and for 
the two children. Jack was still in the hospital. He was 

[end tape 1, side 1] 

WOMEN'S PACE, including special feature* of 
:= interest to feminine readers, Marian Martin patterns. 
raF^fC : Shepard Barclay's daily contract bridge lesson, and 


Adele Garruon'i peat aerial. 



Telephone Lakeside 2600 

Greater Oakland Residents 
Trapped in China War Cente 

Service Family in 

Peiping as 

Guns Roar 

-Worried over the plight of their 
relatives In Peiping, China, several 
Metropolitan Oakland families to 
day anxiously were watting word 
from the invaded pity. . 

Heading- one group In the war 
zone is Mrs. Robert/ Roy Service, 
widow of the Jate TC. M. C. A. offi 
cial and University of California, 
representative in China. 
- With her son, Richard, a Pomon 
college' graduate, who is recuperat 
Ing from an illness, she is at Pelt 
aho, a seaside resort near Peiping 
It was revealed by her son, Rober 
K. Service, .a University of Callfor 
nla forestry student, of 2328 Orov 
street, Berkeley. 


Also in Peiping is a secon 
brother, John S. Service, America; 
vice-consul, with his -wife and -tw 
small children. '."'.•* 

TJie youngsters . are' Virgin! 
Service, 2, and Robert Edward Serr 

CoL and Mrs. Edward Sohulz,' : for 
merly of thtf Presidio. 6an Fran 
Cisco, parents of Mrs. John Service, 
are In Peiping visiting their daugh 
ter. . , , , . • ' ; 

Mrs. Albert 'W. Bruce, 128 Park- 
side, Berkeley, a daughter of Colone 
and Mrs. Schulr, said she has not 
heard from her parents since they 
sailed for China. 

Another Metropolitan Oaklander 
expressing concern over the Peiping 
residents is Mr ;. F. H. McNalr, 1082 
Spruce strest, Berkeley, alster-ln- 
aw of Mrs. !,5ei-vlc« Sr. 

Also living' in the besieged city la 
20-year-old Da\ Id M. Edwards, U. 
S. Marine corps .radio operator at 
h» American embassy, son of Mrs. 
R. B. Edwards of 2840 Sixty-first 
Mrs. Edwards said her son went 

China lit January, for a two-year 
tay. .Her last letter from him was 

mailed in Peiping, June 25, but made 
10 mention of events possibly lead- 
Ing to. the present conflict. 

Among Metropolitan Oaklanders 
Baiting word from the war-torn city 

1 Clarence Christian, 1421 East 
'hlrty-third street, whose brother, 
t. W. Christian, treasurer of the 

hina Union mission of the Sev- 
nth-Day Adventist church. Is in 
Piping. . . .;,, 

With the missionary worker »re 
Js wife. Oretchen, and their two 



; ;v?;<4y--,, -C^'/f 

- •!• i YiTi rSj-jfrr-^ig 'ff^*'-^ -^^-t -^^-^" J ^ 4i- 

IN PEIPING! Mrs. John S. Service, caugM with her husband, 
American vice-consul, and their two small children, in Peiping, 
i center of Japan's present drive into North China. (Story on 
first page, second section.) 


.!.; S 


Under Japanese Rule 
[begin tape 1, side 2] 

C. Service: You saw that newspaper clipping "Guns Roar Overhead"? We didn't 
feel that we were going to be hurt. Guns may have been roaring 
overhead, but we had a feeling of total unreality and that our 
life was — what could the Japanese do to us? We didn't know. 
Also, we didn't know what was happening. There were rumors, 
endless rumors, that the Chinese were being abominably 
treated — some of them may have been; that foreigners were 
being kicked and pushed around — I think there may have been 
one or two such incidents. But, as far as we were aware there 
was always food, the servants were still there. It's true 
nobody was having any parties or anything like that. Our 
regular life had stopped. But, in a week or so we went back 
to our own house in Peking. Mother was dying to buy some things. 
So, she went shopping. We managed to do that, and my father was 
dying to see the Temple of Heaven. 

Now the Japanese, when they came into the city, put their 
troops in grounds around the Temple of Heaven. The Temple of 
Heaven is in the center of a great park with a wall around it. 
Today the Chinese have a lot of celebrations there on their 
national days, and they put on all sorts of displays and they 
have dancers and magicians and that type of thing. That's where 
the Japanese quartered their troops. They had huge, big horses. 
The Japanese came riding into town on these enormous, big 
horses. I don't know where they got them — Australia I think — big, 
great big horses; little Japanese sitting on top. [Chuckle] 

So, how my father managed this I don't know, but he went 
around to Colonel Stilwell, as he was at that time, and asked if 
Stilwell could help him by any chance see the Temple of Heaven. 
Now, I think, what the Military Attaches' Office did — they must 
have approached the Japanese and asked if they could bring a 
visiting, retired army colonel to see the Temple of Heaven. I 
do not know to this day what happened, [chuckle] but, my dear, 
one day we were told that we could go to the Temple of Heaven. 
I think the Military Attaches ' Of f ice told us. 

So, my mother and my father and I all got in a car. We all 
drove to the Temple of Heaven and we had passes. The Japanese 
looked at us very suspiciously, but they let us in. They watched 
us. There was always somebody around or with us, somebody with 
a bayonet and a rifle but not menacing in any way. We saw the 
Temple of Heaven. 


C. Service: You could go to the Forbidden City still, the part that was open. 
There wasn't much open. We could go to Coal Hill. Life became 
quite normal by about September 1. 

U.S. Government Families Evacuated, September, 1937, 
Japan and Berkeley 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 


C. Service: 

Levins on: 

Sometime in September the American government began to feel very 
uneasy. They decided that all the women and children, American 
officials' wives, must leave China. They urged other families to 
leave too. My parents had come out to stay about four months. 
But, they had to go. We had no choice. It was just decided we 
had to leave. Mrs. Lockhart was leaving. Mrs. Johnson was leaving. 
Since they were the top ladies in the embassy, we could not say no. 
I think the only person who stayed was Mariann Clubb, and she had 
some reason or Just decided she wouldn't go. 

So, that was a possibility? 

Yes, but I had no such choice. I had to go with my parents, and 
Jack wouldn't have considered my staying with the two children. 
Jack's language course was going to be over in the winter, and we 
would be transferred someplace else. 

So, on September 18, 1937, once again I got on a train as I 
had in Kunming; we all got on it, all the women and children who 
were going to leave. We all went to Tientsin. It took us all 
day to go to Tientsin. We were given a choice, as I recall, of 
going to Japan and staying there, or going back home. My parents 
and I decided we would go to Japan and see what happened. 

Did you resent this at all? Did you expect this as part of the 
business of being a diplomat's wife? 

No, I didn't think it was part of the business of being a diplomat's 
wife because I had never imagined such things happening. But, I 
did know that China had always been in turmoil. My mother-in-law 
had had to leave Chengtu during the revolution of 1911. They'd all 
had to leave West China and come down to the coast. This seemed 
to happen, and I had already done this in Yunnanfu. I'd already 
been evacuated once. So, it wasn't too surprising. But, it was 
surprising to me that it was because of the Japanese, although 
the Japanese had been encroaching since taking Manchuria. On the 
other hand, I never felt why did this happen to me? It was happen 
ing to everyone, not just to me. 

Do you nean you didn't feel any resentment? 


C. Service: No, but I hated to leave Jack. I did feel resentment at that. 

How can I explain it? Everybody had to go. We all had to leave. 
I always felt as though it really weren't happening, and that 1 
would soon be back again. 

Levenson: Did you feel it was being excessively alarmist? 

C. Service: Yes, we did have that feeling — why is the government so nervous? 
We were quite all right and nothing was going to happen to us. 
We did have this feeling in Peking. Maybe this was why Mariann 
Clubb decided she wouldn't leave, because we just felt that since 
they weren't going to hurt us, why should we go? I did feel that. 
Why should I drag my poor little kids away, and why did I have to 
leave Jack? I felt resentful about that. 

Levenson: Do you remember at that time any real fear of the Japanese? 

C. Service: No, because I didn't see much of the Japanese. They were around, 
but I didn't go where they were. I've never had great fear of 
people, to be quite frank. But, then I have never been, in spite 
of what I may be saying here, I don't think I've ever been in a 
very perilous situation, perilous to me alone. In other words, 
I've never encountered somebody with a gun poked right at me. 
I've never had anything like this happen to me. So, I did not 
feel fear. I don't think others did, either. If I'd had an 
unpleasant experience, yes, I might have — 

Levenson: And yet — 

C. Service: I felt that I was being maneuvered by blind fate sometimes, and 
that — I didn't like this. I didn't like being maneuvered around 
by blind fate and I wanted to resist it. But, there's no way 
to resist it. 

Levenson: It's curious. I suppose the government had no control over it, 
but American students were coining into Peking as late as 1941. 

C. Service: Yes, right. But, they had no control over them. You see, always 
too, if you're in the Foreign Service, you think, are you ruining 
your husband's career? Now, if I'd said, no, I wouldn't go — 
Well, Jack didn't want me to stay, so I wasn't about to do that. 
But, it didn't hurt Mariann. I kept thinking, "Well, if I do 
this, will this be held against Jack?" Now, that sounds rather 
stupid, but this is what you do think. You do think this, and 
so you do conform to these things. Obviously, I was in no position 
in any sense to say I would stay. Mariann eventually did have to 
leave — I'm really not sure. 


C. Service: Also, I felt I'd be coming back very soon the way I had in 
Yunnanfu. You see, I went away there. There was no choice 
either. There I really had to leave because who knew what 
was going to happen, and if the one railway down to Indochina 
had been cut we would have been marooned. But, I was back in 
two weeks . 

I thought, "Well, I'll go to Japan and stay for a while 
and thtn I'll be back." That was really what I thought. So, 
when we got to Tientsin we spent the night there. Then, we got 
on a boat the next morning and went off to Japan. It was a little 
Japanese boat. We couldn't sit in the lounge because the little 
lounge was full of urns with ashes of dead Japanese soldiers being 
taken back to Japan. There was a little Shinto shrine, and nobody 
was allowed to sit there. These were Japanese who'd been killed 
in the Chinese war. 

The boat ride was unpleasant. My mother and father were 
given a little cabin to themselves. I put Bob, who was seven 
months old in with them — in a basket between their bunks. Eight 
of us had been assigned to a cabin with four bunks. Mrs. Salisbury 
moved out, but Billie Millet, her two boys and her amah, and Ginny 
and I stayed in the cabin. 

Up in the dining saloon one day we were trying to get some 
hot cereal. The waiter brought us some oatmeal and one or the 
other of us said it was cold, whereupon the waiter put his thumb 
in [gesturing], scooped up some oatmeal, put it in his mouth and 
said, "Not cold." [Laughter] That was that. 

I was trying to boil bottles, sterilize bottles, and I had to 
intrude into the galley to do this. Of course, they didn't want 
to see me, but they let me do it. 

We went to Kobe. I don't know — two days, two nights, three 
days, three nights. Fortunately the weather was perfectly calm, 
and the sea was beautiful. 

Anyway, when we got to Kobe we all decided we would go up to 
Kyoto. We went to a lovely hotel, the Miyako in Kyoto. There we 
lead a beautiful life for two weeks, as though we were just tourists, 
Mrs. Johnson and her children were there, Mrs. Lockhart, my mother 
and father, Mrs. Salisbury. I was there with my children. Of 
course, Kyoto's a fascinating, ancient town. So, that was a 
different experience. The Japanese were pleasantly agreeable. 
I got a Japanese amah for the children so I could go sightseeing. 

After two weeks we decided we'd go to Tokyo, because at this 
point we had to begin to decide whether I would go home with my 
parents — because I hadn't been home for so many years — or whether 
I would stay in Japan by myself hoping to go back to China. 


C. Service: We went to Tokyo and Elsie Lyon was there staying with her 

parents the Grews. We stayed at the Sanno Hotel, but because 
Elsie was there and because Elsie and I were good friends, 
things were much more pleasant than they might have been. We 
went around to the embassy and people were agreeable. The Grews 
invited Mother and Father and me to lunch. Elsie saw that I got 
an amah for the children. Then, Father and I took a day off and 
went up to see Nikko. I think we spent about three weeks in 
Tokyo. It was very pleasant. 

My father being a retired army officer, the Japanese sent 
somebody around to the hotel to ask him questions, why he was 
there, you know, army and so on, and what did he think about the 
war with China. [Chuckle] We had just come from China. Father 
said he didn't think anything about it. After a few more 
questions, they realized he was an old, retired officer. But, 
they did seek him out to decide what he was doing there. 

Billie Millet was there expecting her third child, and she 
had it in the middle of the night. She called me up and I got 
a taxi from the Sanno Hotel and went to the hospital in the middle 
of the night and had no trouble getting there. I stayed there 
till the baby was born, and then I went back to the hotel. The 
hotel was locked up. I didn't know you locked hotels. But, I 
finally pounded around and they let me in. I should have told 
them I was going. 

Levenson: I'd like to ask a few questions. When you were in Tokyo you 

had access to some of the best American information through the 
Grews. Were they foreseeing and fearing war with Japan? 

C. Service: When I saw the Grews there was never any talk of politics. It was 

purely social. I saw them only at lunch, and Mrs. Grew occasionally 
with Elsie. But, I certainly did not see the Grews in any other 

One of the people who was a Japan language student at the 
time there was U. Alexis Johnson. This was where I first knew 
them, knew him and his wife. He has risen to the top in the 
Foreign Service. He was undersecretary of state for political 
affairs, the number three job in the State Department. He's one 
of the few people from that period who is in the Foreign Service 

John Emmerson was a language student then, but I did not 
meet him and Dorothy. They were living somewhere else. That's 
spelled with two m's, that Emmerson. 

Levenson: I've got it. 


C. Service: I don't think anybody talked in terras of war with Japan. Many 

people probably thought China needed something like the Japanese. 
There was always a split in some sense between the China language 
people who were very pro-China and the Japanese language people 
whose sympathy was with Japan. Not in the sense of wanting Japan 
to do some of the things Japan did, but they felt that Japan 
could bring some order into the disintegrating situation in China; 
that something had to be done about China, and why not by the 
Japanese? They may have deplored, and I'm sure they did, some 
of the methods the Japanese used, but you know the Japanese had 
become westernized to some extent, to a large extent, as far as 
their industry and that type of thing, their army and navy. 
China was still suffering from the chaos of the warlord period 
which had afflicted the country after the fall of the Manchus. 

Levenson: You seem to have had a very good time. How were you managing for 

C. Service: Money. Now, we were to get a travel allowance. We were to get 

per diem — I've never known how to pronounce it. So, when I got 
to Kobe I went around to the consulate and asked for per diem 
which I was given for the time since we'd left Peking. 

I'll tell you something unusual about those days. It didn't 
apply to the wives, of course, but any Foreign Service officer in 
those days when he was traveling and needed money, could draw a 
draft on the secretary of state. 

Levenson: Whew! For how much? 

C. Service: I suppose they had limits to it, but I suppose for your salary or 
for your travel. Ask Jack about that, because the Foreign Service 
in those days consisted of only about six hundred people, six 
hundred officers and other people. They were often where there 
was no disbursing officer to give them money when they were 
abroad. So, they could draw a draft on the secretary of state 
which would be honored in banks around the world, I guess. Well 
now, obviously wives could not do this, but we were advanced or 
we were given our per diem. This is what I lived on in Tokyo. 
I cannot remember how much it was, I suppose it was — do you 
think it could 've been as much as ten dollars a day, in those 

Levenson: I should think so. I don't know. 

C. Service: Well, ten dollars a day doesn't sound like much now, but I think 
in those days it would have been very adequate. It paid for the 
hotel and for meals. Also, I got a children's allowance, maybe 
five dollars. I don't remember. So, this is what I lived on 
because obviously I didn't have any other money. 


C. Service: 

Finally in early November we sailed for home because I couldn't 
go back to China yet. I came home. My family were living in 
Berkeley. My father and mother moved over here when they retired. 
I spent six months in Berkeley. When I came home Jack was able 
to send me some money even though there was no separation allow 
ance in those days. 

Then, when I returned to China in the spring of 1938, I 
returned to Shanghai. Jack had been transferred to Shanghai. 
Well, then that — that was a very different kind of life from 
Peking or Yunnanfu — a more "foreign" life. 

Shanghai; Inside a Glass Bubble 

C. Service: We had two years then in Shanghai. When I went back Jack was going 
to study for his third year Chinese language exams at the same 
time he was a vice consul in the consulate in Shanghai. The 
consulate in Shanghai in those days was the biggest [American] 
consulate in the world. It was huge. It wouldn't be now, but 
it was big for those days. 

The consul general was Mr. Lockhart at first, who of course 
was a dear friend from Peking days. Then Mr. [Clarence] Gauss, 
who later became ambassador to China, was the consul general, 
and then Mr. Lockhart again. 

We enjoyed the two years very much. We lived a very foreign 
life. By this time we had a little more salary, we had a bigger 
rent allowance, and we lived in a place called Haig Court which 
was certainly one of the nicest apartment houses in Shanghai. We 
went back to see it in 1971, and it's still there and looks much 
the same. We don't know whether officials live in it now or what 
it's used for. But, the lawn was still there, which is unusual. 

The children were getting older, and they had lots of playmates 
there who lived in the same building. Two other couples from the 
consulate lived there, the Butricks and the Engdahls. Dick Butrick 
was the number two in the consulate general. 

It wasn't glamorous like Peking. It wasn't China; it was 
foreign. It was a China Treaty Port, the biggest one. The 
Japanese had encircled Shanghai. You could not go over to 
Hong Kew without a pass because the Japanese controlled it . The 
Japanese were trying to take control of the Shanghai Municipal 
Council, the governing body that ran the International Settlement. 
The International Settlement was really run by the British, but 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service; 

it did have a lot of other elements in it. They had a big 
election there in 1939 or '40 to keep the Japanese from control 
ling it. Of course, later on the Japanese got control because 
they controlled everything. 

Did you have any Chinese friends? 

No. I'm very interested in answering this question. As I look 
back, I don't think that we had any Chinese friends. I didn't. 
When I say this I must make a few exceptions. We knew the 
Chinese who worked in the offices, especially in Shanghai. We 
had a very good friend named Ernest Tung, who was one of the 
head translators in the office. Every so often he'd entertain 
all of us at a Chinese restaurant. We knew him and his wife. 
There were a few others — westernized Chinese. 

But, I did not have any real Chinese friends. 1 never had a 
real Chinese friend till I went back to China in the 70's. Now, 
I feel I have one or two good Chinese friends whom I have gotten 
to know on these trips. I don't think even Jack, and he was born 
there, had any. The Chinese you knew either worked for Westerners 
or had something to do with Westerners or were returned students, 
but most of those people, of course, left China too in the 1940' s. 
I really don't think I had a good Chinese friend. I did not. 

We lived very much to ourselves, the foreigners did. It 
was a very weird thing, when you think back. We lived above — and 
when I say above I don't mean necessarily in money or anything 
like that — but we lived on a different plane from the Chinese. 
We lived always as foreigners. Maybe there was no other way 
to live in China. 

Our children went to foreign schools where Chinese children 
could not go. We entertained, for the most part, only our own 
compatriots and maybe a few others. By the time we lived in 
Shanghai we had some German friends and French friends and 
English friends. It was a foreign community. We belonged to the 
Columbia Country Club. It was all foreigners. The Columbia 
Country Club was mostly Americans. 

It was as though we were living in a glass bubble inside 
something else. And we were always inside our own glass bubble, 
all floating around, seeing each other, perhaps talking with 
each other, perhaps knowing one or two Chinese, but insulated. 

Were you frustrated at all by this insulation? 

No, I never thought of it. It was the way everybody lived. In 
fact, people would have thought you were very odd if you'd done 
what they called "going native," in other words, living like the 


C. Service: Chinese or seeing more Chinese! There were always a few foreigners 
who did this. But, then, you didn't see them very much, and they 
were considered quite odd. Mostly they were single people, single 
men, let us say, or a few strange missionaries who really were 
interested in Chinese as people. 

We were interested in China because of its history, because 
it was exotic, but what did we really know about the Chinese? I 
myself knew really almost nothing. Our servants we knew, but we 
often called them "boy" or "amah." Sometimes we called them by 
their names. In Shanghai I think I called the servants by their 
names. But the amah was always the amah. They never had any time 
off unless they came and asked us. There were no regular days 

[end tape 1, side 2; begin tape 2, side 1] 

C. Service: Once in a while the cook or the boy or the amah would come and 

say he or she wanted to go home for a while. We always said yes. 
In fact, I would say that foreigners treated their servants, on 
the whole, very well. They probably paid them more than Chinese 
did. On the other hand, Chinese who worked for Chinese probably 
had more of their families with them perhaps. But, this never 
occurred to us, unless we had a boy and an amah who happened to 
be married. 

When Bob was born my amah brought one of her daughters. I 
then had two amahs: the amah herself and the amah's daughter; 
two children, two amahs. But, did the amah have lots more 
children? I don't know. Who took care of them when she brought 
the oldest daughter? You see, this is the kind of thing that I 
at least did not know. 

I wonder why I didn't know, except that nobody seemed to 
know these things. It wasn't that I was thoughtless. In a 
sense, it was just the way foreigners lived. Many foreigners 
felt, of course, extremely superior to Chinese. I can remember 
hearing a foreign woman say once that, "They're so stupid. They 
can't even speak English!" 

Levenson: Oh dear. 

C. Service: I said, "But, look, how much Chinese do you speak?" Well, but 
that wasn't important. Chinese just wasn't a language to learn 
in her book. 

Certainly this did not apply to everybody. But, I would say 
this was very prevalent, especially in the Treaty Ports, this 
feeling of superiority, and that the Chinese were backward. 
Chinese are one of the smartest people in the world. Not that I 
think any one people has a monopoly on smartness. I do not believe 
this at all. 


C. Service: What must the Chinese have thought of foreigners half-taking over 

their country? I can see today why they're not very keen on having 
lots of foreigners come to China, why they don't want hordes of 
tourists coming. They had Westerners just going around China for 
more than a hundred years, 1840 to 1950, 110 years — bossing them, 
telling them what to do, running their post offices and customs, 
just lording it over them, and the foreigners did not obey any 
Chinese laws because there was extraterritoriality. We were under 
our own laws . 

Now, you see, the Chinese, they're not going to forget this 
right away. It's going to take, to my mind, quite some time 
before they will be willing to really open their country again 
on a basis such as we have between Europe and America. And when 
they do, it's going to be on their terms, aid let us hope they'll 
be pleasant terms for everybody. 

In the foreign concessions where the Chinese laws didn't 
obtain at all, not even for the Chinese, Chinese would be really 
very badly treated often, you know, beaten up by the police. 
The worst thing you could do to a rickshaw puller was to take 
his cushions away. You could beat him too, but if you took his 
cushions away, he could not get a fare. Then, he would have to 
pay a fine. You really took his livelihood, at that point, away 
from him if you took his cushions. 

Levenson: Did people do that? 

C. Service: Yes, the police sometimes did. 

Levenson: What for? 

C. Service: Because the puller had done something the police didn't like or 

because he perhaps had disobeyed a traffic rule. He may have had 
a fight with another rickshaw man. But, this was a dreadful 
thing to do to him, because in order to retrieve his cushions 
and start working again he had to pay his fine. He wasn't just 
let off. It was an awful thing to do. You know, just a hand to 
mouth existence, in the hardest sense of that word. 

In the French Concession there were lots of French and 
Russians. The Russians had come down from Harbin, Mukden, from 
Manchuria, from North China, Tientsin and so on. They had to eke 
out what kind of a living they could in competition with Chinese. 
They had restaurants. They had dressmaking establishments. Some 
of the best dressmakers were Russians who hired Chinese tailors. 
They had various little shops of all descriptions, and they lived 
mostly in the French Concession, Avenue Joffre. 

Excerpt from letter to parents, Feb. 15, 1940 

OjK. <ZLOU>A>& 

£&f faAl\ \AHV CJL UB B •*« 

i i 


C. Service: In 1940 a great wave of immigrants from Germany and particularly 
Austria came to Shanghai. They were refugees. Shanghai was one 
of the few places in the world where they could come without a 
passport. There must've been 10,000 of them who came to Shanghai. 
A lot of them lived in the French Concession. Some of them lived 
over in the Japanese section. They then had to make a living. 
They had to compete with the Russians and the Chinese. 

Levenson: Were these all Jews? 

C. Service: Yes. They were Jews or Gentiles married to Jews. I hired a 
woman who came around and manicured fingernails . She was not 
Jewish, but her husband was. She had come with him. So, they 
all were there for that reason, because they had no place to go. 
They came into Shanghai and that put extra pressure on things. 
They competed with the Russians, they competed with the Chinese. 
But, anyway, this was another element thrust into Shanghai. 

People, I think, did try to do everything that was possible 
to help, but there wasn't much. I never felt that there was any 
animus against them. Perhaps there was amongst the elements with 
whom they were competing. This I don't know. 

A lot of these refugees brought china with them. For some 
reason they must have thought that china cups and saucers would 
sell. Or they were easy to bring. They would set up little 
shops, and they would have these simply lovely Dresden cups and 
saucers, perhaps one of a kind, and people would buy them. They 
had other kinds of antiques, jewelry, and small things that they 
brought with them, because they couldn't bring much. They'd set 
up little shops and, as I say, restaurants too. 

One man is here in Berkeley today who, I think, got his visa 
from Jack. Jack was the man in the consulate who processed his 
visa. Max Knight, do you know Max Knight? 

Levenson: Very well. 

C. Service: He and Jack met in Shanghai. He'd been in England or someplace. 
He must have gone to England first, but why he came to Shanghai 
I don't know. But anyway, his visa to come to this country he 
got from Jack. He remembered Jack and after we came here to 
Lerkeley he called up Jack. We don't see them very often but 
they're good friends, he and Charlotte. 

Well, there were just endless sad cases, endless people 
trying to get out and come here to America. The war had long 
since bypassed Shanghai. Nanking had fallen and the government 
had moved to Chungking. Shanghai was really an isolated island. 
The Japanese could have taken it any time they wanted. 


Levenson: I assume it was useful to them, then, to keep the status quo? 

C. Service: Yes, I'm sure It wns. Anywny, if they'd taken over, they would 
have had to run everything. They wouJd hnve had to bring In n 
lot more people and they didn't want to. They were far more 
interested in extending their sway, I assume, over the rest of 
the country. 

Jack's mother by the way, who had gone home, had returned to 
China and was living in Tsingtao with Dick [Service]. Dick, after 
he got wall, got another job as a clerk in the consulate in 

I went up with the two children and spent the summer of '40 
in Tsingtao. Dick got married that summer to an American girl, 
Helen Gardes, who was the sister of an American naval officer 
who was out there. 

I went back to Shanghai in early September, and, I really 
don't know why but suddenly the situation in Shanghai began to 
get worse. We all realized that things were getting worse and 
that probably we were going to have to leave. By October, 1940, 
the goveinraent once more said, "You have to leave. The women and 
children are going to have to leave." I assume it was because 
they realized that we would be at war with Japan ourselves. 

Levenson: What effect did the start of the war in Europe have on you? 

C. Service: The war in Europe started in September, 1939. We were still in 
Shanghai. Nothing happened that first winter. You remember, it 
was called the phony war, and we were conscious of it but it 
didn't affect us. But, the British, some of whom had been buying 
all their meat at the German butcher, stopped — that kind of thing. 
They went and bought their meat someplace else. Little things 
like that. 

Shanghai had lots of stores run by foreigners, not only 
Russians and then the refugees. There were a lot of German stores, 
food stores, and there were British department stores as well as 
Chinese. It was a very, very cosmopolitan place. 

The Germans and the British had to keep apart. The French 
and the Germans too. But, the Germans had their own club and 
their own school, just as the Americans had their club. Then 
there was the French club, which a lot of people belonged to. 
The British had the Shanghai Race Club. So, people were rather 
separated anyway, and what they did was just stay separated. You 
just didn't invite people of warring nations to your house together. 


C. Service: We had one very good German friend, Harry Glathe, who was born In 
China. He didn't seem German at all, and we kept on Heeiny, him. 
We still hear from him. He liven in Austral In now. The Kuroponn 
war seemed remote. 

I have very little recollection of it, of what I thought 
about it. I don't know — when was the Battle of Britain? Was 
that 1940? 

Levenson: Yes . 

C. Service: Yes, well you see, we all knew about that, and we all realized 
that the Carman thrust had been deflected. Everybody was very 
proud about this. But, I think our main concern always out there 
was what was going to happen in the Pacific, what the Japanese 
were going to do. 

Third Evacuation for the Service Family; November, 1940 

C. Service: But, 1 do know that when we had to be evacuated, all of us again 
felt, "Why are they sending us home? We're perfectly all right 
here; nobody's going to hurt us." Quite a few of the women 
wouldn't leave right away. But, I left in November with Ginny 
and Bob. Helen Service came down to Shanghai and left and Jack's 
mother left. 

We all left on the same ship. It was the Monterey, which 
was diverted from San Francisco. From San Francisco it always 
went to Australia. It was diverted to Shanghai to pick up any 
of the American women and children who wanted to go. One of the 
reasons that we left on this boat was because it was loaded for 
Australia, and we'd have a good long sea voyage. [Chuckle] If we 
hadn't taken that we would have had to leave three weeks later. 
So, we decided we would go on the Monterey. 

We left early in November with about eight hundred women and 
children. We went to Manila and picked up more women and children. 
Noel Coward was on board from San Francisco. 

Levenson: Oh really. 

C. Service: We had Noel Coward [laughter] and about one hundred people who 
were on their way to Australia. When the ship was diverted to 
Shanghai they just had to stick with it. Of course, we were all 
fascinated by seeing Noel Coward. He worked all day, and then 


C. Service: appeared at dinner at night. There was a little, select group 
that stayed together. They were friends. The rest of us never 
saw Noel Coward except at a distance. He always dressed for 
dinner. He left the ship in Australia. 

Levenson: He didn't entertain for the ship? 

C. Service: No, he didn't, not that I recall anyway. 

1 spent most of my time with the two small children who 
were three and five, but you know, that's all anybody did. I 
had lots of friends on board, most of the women from the consulate. 
A few stayed behind and came on the next ship. 

We had a perfectly lovely trip down to Manila and then down 
through the Sulu Sea and down inside the Great Barrier Reef to 
Sydney. We had five days in Sydney, six days I guess. Then, we 
went to Auckland, New Zealand, which 1 never expected to see 
again. Then, we went to Fiji. Nobody in the world that I knew 
had ever been to Fiji! [Laughter] I was astonished to find myself 
in Fiji. Then, we went to Samoa. 

Levenson: Sounds marvelous. 

C. Service: It was marvelous. We had more than five weeks on this ship. 

Then, we came to Los Angeles and then came up here. We got in 
about December 10. 1 was home for Christmas. This was December, 
1940. I thought I'd be going back to Shanghai — maybe within a 
year, I hoped. 

Well, I was home until 1945, and I didn't see Jack again after 
I left Shanghai for two years and two months. I didn't see him 

until December, '42. But, 
was going to be this way. 

I had no idea when I left that this 

There again, I think that — You must have had experiences 
in your life — well, you have — where you didn't think what was 
happening was real, or that somehow or other, not that you'd 
wake up and find it wasn't so, but that it wasn't logical that it 
should have happened. My poor family thought they'd never see me 
again when I went to China, but I landed on them for years! It 
was very hard on them. 

As for what was going on in China, I don't think any of us 
had any conception of what was going to transpire in China in the 
next few years, that the war would end with a civil war which the 
Communists would win. 

I never thought about the Communists, to tell you the truth. 
They never entered my head. The Japanese were the big problem. 
But, I just don't think any of us realized what was happening in 


C. Service: China. Perhaps some of the men did. But, it was so remote, so, 
so inconceivable in any way that we were thinking. Even if we 
had a war, we thought, well, when the war is over we'd all go 

Levenson: And some people did for a while. 

C. Service: Yes, they did. That's right. They did until 1948, '49, right. 

Caroline Service 
Shanghai, 1938 

Jack and Caroline Service 
Yunnanfu, November, 1934 

American Women's Club Garden Party 
Shanghai, June 1, 1940 

Caroline Service in front of 
house in Yunnanfu. 
Spring, 1935 



Three Generations in Berkeley; 1940-1945 

C. Service: I was at home in Berkeley, but not very happy. I finally got a 
job at the Claremont Hotel in '42. I got a job as a telephone 
operator, which I had never done before. I knew nothing about 
telephones. I got 50c an hour and one free dinner every time 
I worked. I worked three nights a week. I was happy to have it. 
[Laughter] I can tell you, I was very pleased. It gave me a 
little something to do. 

My parents didn't want me to work. I didn't want to very 
much either. It meant they would have had to take care of the 
children. They'd brought up all their children. My mother and 
father were approaching seventy, and the thought that they'd be 
stranded with two small kids was not very attractive to them. 
They were darling to the children. They did all sorts of things for 
them, but they didn't want the sole care of the children. 

I went to see my mother-in-law in Claremont two summers and 
took the children with me. My mother-in-law and I were devoted 
friends, but she was a semi-invalid. It was not expected that 
I would try to rush to do something and abandon my children, you 
know, in the sense that people today would think, oh, get out and 
do something. Nobody expected it of me, and nobody wanted me to. 

And one summer the children and I spent in Salt Lake City 
with my sister Katherine and her family. My brother-in-law was 
stationed at Fort Douglas. 

Levenson: How much did the government help with money? 

C. Service: In 1940 Jack was making, I think, $3500 a year. That was 

considered quite good when we were together. But, he could 
only send me, at the most, half of it. In fact, he could only 


C. Service: send me $100 a month. So, out of that $100 a month I gave my 

family $50 for board and room for the children and me. The other 
$50 I used for everything else I had to do — clothes, dentist, 
whatever. Now, obviously my family was subsidizing me. I did 
not have a car and I didn't have to pay for the laundry. I 
drove my father's car and I didn't have to pay for any help that 
my mother had. All I did was hand my poor parents $50 every 
month . 

About two years after this, Congress passed a law giving 
separation allowances. Then, I got some grand sum like, $180 
more a month. I then had enough to live on. I could pay my 
parents more. I could have moved out and lived by myself, but 
I didn't. At that point I'd lived at home so long. I probably 
should have moved out, as I think back. But, anyway I didn't. 

Slow Mails from China 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

What news did you have of Jack? 

When I left, Jack stayed in Shanghai until the next April. In 
April, 1941, he was transferred to Chungking. Well, this was a 
watershed. This catapulted Jack into an entirely new situation 
and a new life, going to the embassy in Chungking. I suppose he 
had the most interesting days of his whole life during those 
years. He was in Chungking for four years. 

Jack will have to tell you about his life in Chungking. I 
resented those years, much more — I thought, why couldn't — 
But, I couldn't have been with Jack. But, I thought he's having 
all this great time, all the excitement you see, and here I am, 
not. I'm here, stuck. It wasn't all like that, by any means. 
I didn't think that very often, but I did sometimes. And, of 
course, I wondered if I'd ever see him again. 

I was going to ask that. 

After Pearl Harbor what sort of mail were you getting from China 
from Jack? 

Well, it had to come over the Hump, and Jack isn't a prolific 
letter writer, so it wasn't only the fault of the mail. I suppose 
I heard once or twice a month. Sometimes letters came through 
very quickly; sometimes they didn't. Sometimes people would mail 


C. Service: letters in India or from other places. Jack sent me two silver 

bracelets once from some of the tribespeople. It took them years 
to get here. I got them. He told me he'd sent them. I thought, 
well, I'll never see them. They came at least one or two years 
later. The package was all torn, everything, but there they were. 
I don't know where they had been. 

Jack was out of Chungking a lot. He was in places where 
mails could not be sent. He took a trip down through Kwangsi 
province for weeks in a jeep, with an army officer. Of course, 
no mail at all during that time. I'm trying to think if I got 
some letters when he was up in Yenan the first time. 

Levenson: You said he didn't write to his mother either? 

C. Service: He didn't write many letters to either of us during those years. 
Whether his mind was so involved and engrossed with what was 
going on in China — Also, all letters were censored. There wasn't 
much you could write. I probably had more letters than I think I 
had. But, he couldn't say much. 

Homes Leaves; December. 1942; November. 1944 

C. Service: I remember what a shock it was when he came home in December, 1942, 
and said there was going to be civil war in China. We met down in 
Claremont and we hadn't seen each other for more than two years. 
Well, we had a very happy reunion, very happy. I just felt as 
though it was no time at all since I'd seen Jack. 

Jack and I have always had the ability, after separations, 
of picking right up. We never have a feeling of strangeness, 
that we have to become reacquainted. Now, that's something, I 
think. So, even though things were not always — you know, every 
marriage has its ups and downs — but, Jack and I have never had 
any problem of reverting to a very intimate, easy relationship. 

Well, the thing that shocked me was that Jack was already 
saying that there was going to be civil war in China probably. 
You see, what he was talking about, was not so much what the 
Japanese were doing in China, but what was going to happen in 
China after the war. Now, this was in late '42, and early '43, 
because he stayed home until April. This was all something which 
I had never heard of or read of in the paper. It was just never 
considered in anything that Americans wrote about China. 


C. Service: Especially, Jack said, how weak the Chiang Kai-shek regime was, 
and how corrupt and so on. Well, you know, Madame [Chiang] had 
made a triumphal tour around the country, and everybody just 
thought the Chi none were sprouting wings of n wort. 

I said, "Jnck, you — " I really questioned him hernuHu J 
could not believe it. He said, "Well, you ask other people 
who have been there." Well, of course, I didn't, because I 
didn't see anybody else. 

Jack went back to China, then, in April, 1943, and by 1944 
they were trying to get the Dixie Mission into Yenan. Jack 
wrote and said that if I didn't hear from him for a while it 
would be because he'd gone up to Yenan. I did get a letter in 
early July, telling me this. 

This is why I'm not sure if I heard from him when he was in 
Yenan or not, but I think I must have gotten a letter or two, 
because the plane did go in every now and then. But, of course, 
he couldn't say anything. He really didn't say anything, except 
that they were up there observing. 

Well, then, suddenly, in early November, 1944, he was home. 
He was home before I knew he was coming. This was when [General 
Joseph W. ] Stilwell was recalled. Jack was brought home, and 
Ambassador Gauss resigned because the whole thing was blowing 
up. [Patrick] Hurley, by that time, was out in China, and Jack 
had written voluminous reports which may have been discounted at 
home, but I know he was given very good marks on them by the 
State Department. 

It was obvious the situation in China was deteriorating. 
Now, it wasn't obvious to me because I knew nothing about it, but 
it was obvious to [most of the] people who were out there. All 
the people who were stationed in Chungking, I would say, except 
maybe Everett Drumright, agreed with this analysis. 

Tony Freeman was there — oh, where were the rest of them? 
Jack was there. Ed Rice was up someplace else. I don't know 
whether he had anything to do with it. Edmund Clubb was out there. 
The consensus was — and Ambassador Gauss agreed with this analysis 
too — that if we backed just Chiang Kai-shek that we were going 
to be on the losing side of the Chinese civil war, which was 
almost certain to break out when the Japanese war ended. By this 
time, it was obvious the Japanese were pretty much on the ropes. 
The war in Europe had ended, hadn't it? 

Levenson: June, 1945. 


C. Service: Well, all right. The war in the Pacific was coming to an end 
then too. The Americans and the Australians were making a big 
comeback in the Pacific. 

Well, when Jack came home in November, 1944, I went east 
to meet him in Washington. I became pregnant then with Philip, 
our youngest child. We went out to the airport to meet Gauss 
when he came home. I don't know whether he'd already resigned 
or was about to resign. Very soon after that Hurley was 
appointed ambassador. Jack couldn't believe it. Jack simply 
could not believe they'd appoint Hurley, because he had such a 
low impression of Hurley. Anyway, he and Hurley did not hit it 
off. Not that Jack had seen him much, but there was just, you 
know, a clash of ideas and personalities. 

[end tape 2, side 1; begin tape 1, side 1] 
[Interview 4: October 12, 1976] 

C. Service: I think where we stopped last time Jack was going to come home. 
I have refreshed my memory with notes about the summer of 1945. 
I wrote these notes in 1971, long before I had any idea I would 
be talking. 

I'm not going to read this off, but I want to talk about it. 
Jack came home in November, 1944 — I mentioned that before — when 
Stilwell was recalled and when Gauss was replaced by Hurley. 
John Carter Vincent called me and told me Jack was coining home. 
John Carter Vincent at this time was stationed in Washington. 
So, I decided to go east and meet Jack, which I did on November 8. 

Jack and I then drove west. We managed to get a car through 
some friends of ours who had family in Richmond, Indiana. We 
went to Richmond, Indiana, by train where we were able to buy an 
old Chrysler which we drove across the country. We had to get 
gas coupons and so on. Gas was rationed. But this was arranged 
because Jack was going to his home. Like anybody in the army, you 
could get gas if you were driving to your home. 

We had decided to spend Christmas with Jack's mother in 
southern California. So, we came here to Berkeley and saw my 
parents and picked up the children. Then, we went back to 
southern California. By this time I knew I was pregnant, and 
I did hope that Jack would not have to go back to China because 
I really had hardly seen Jack in the last, what, four years. 

But, apparently, he was going to have to go back for many 
reasons. Hurley was appointed — I'm going to read this now if 
I may. 

Levenson: Yes, of course. 


C. Service: I've had to refresh my memory about this. That's why I can give 
you the dates so exactly, because I did a lot of thinking about 

When Gauss's resignation became final and 
public Jack and 1 were idly talking one day 
about who would be made the next ambassador 
to China. I said, "Why not Hurley? After 
all he is right there." Jack said that 
such an appointment would be incredible, a 
disaster, an impossibility. I'm sure it 
would seem so to the people in Chungking 
in the embassy there, but obviously they 
could not know what was going on in the 
thinking at the White House or behind the 
scenes between Chiang and Roosevelt. Having 
got rid of both Stilwell and Gauss, Chiang 
was not about to have anyone else who knew 
anything about China and the situation there 
foisted off on him. Hence, Hurley and 
General Wedemeyer. From the point of view of 
the uninformed, Hurley seemed a logical choice. 

After Christmas we came back to Berkeley. Jack caught a late 
night plane back to Washington on December 31, 1944, and went 
back to China, to Chungking. He went back to Yenan one more 
time under orders from the army. This is something Hurley 
held against him. I will not go into that because I do not 
know all the details. This is all in the record. 

I did not know when Jack was coming back. I was going to 
stay here in Berkeley and have the baby. I knew I was pregnant 
and that I would be having a baby in August. My poor parents, 
what they thought I cannot imagine! They must have groaned and 
groaned after having me with two children forever and now a new 

Levenson: Were you pleased? 

C. Service: I beg your pardon? 

Levenson: Were you pleased about the new baby? 

C. Service: Yes, I was pleased. I'd always wanted three children and I was 

pleased in a kind of a dumb, euphoric way. I really was pleased. 
Also, I thought that as Jack and I hadn't seen each other for a 
long time, it would be very nice to have another baby. We did 
not plan on a baby, but it was nice, the thought of the family's 
continuation, in that sense, a new child. 


C. Service: Of course, I did not have any idea of when Jack would come back. 
But, on April 12, 1945, Roosevelt died. On that day Jack 
arrived back in New York. He was recalled at the insistence of 
Hurley who, by that time, had gotten rid of most of the people 
who had been in Chungking for so many years. John Davies was 
sent to Moscow. 

I say here [notes, 1971]: 

It was certainly time for them to be relieved 
and sent home, but not for the reasons that 
Hurley had in mind. I, of course, was full 
of delight and happiness. Jack was to be 
stationed in Washington for a while. The 
children and I would go east as soon as the 
school year was over, June 15, [1945]. The 
baby would be born in Washington. Sometime 
in May a new promotion list came out and 
Jack was given a double promotion, going 
from class VI to class IV, at one big jump, 
which proves that they thought his work had 
been simply super in China. 

Levenson: Of course. 

C. Service: A few others were given double promotions too, but I don't 

believe it was ever done before or since. I don't think it was 
a good idea. In fact I think it was a terrible idea. 

Levenson: Why? 

C. Service: It engendered an enormous amount of jealousy which I can't blame. 
A lot of your promotions in the Foreign Service are based on 
luck — pure, simple luck — where you are, when you were there, if 
the people like you, or if they don't like you. I mean both bad 
and good luck. Your career in the Foreign Service is not 
altogether this, and not even largely, but it comes into 
practically everybody's career. Perhaps it's impossible to be 

Levenson: Isn't that true of life in general? 

C. Service: Yes, it is. Except the Foreign Service people who get to the top 
are inclined to think they did it on sheer merit alone. Just not 
true. Now, Jack was going ahead at a great rate, so I can say this, 
It is merit certainly, but there are a lot of people who never have 
a chance to show what they can do because they're in some forlorn 
consulate off at the end of nowhere or they don't get sent to an 
enbassy or where something's happening. A great deal of it is just 
pure luck. 


C. Service: Well, so Jack at this point was very lucky. Later on he was very 
unlucky. This promotion meant we'd be able to stay afloat 
financially in wartime Washington. In fact, he would get a 
$6000 a year salary instead of $4000. This seemed an enormous 
amount of money to me. [Chuckle] We would have a reunited 
family, new home, Washington, double promotion, new baby. 
Everything seemed to be going our way then. 

Then into this heaven — I say this is a bit of purple 
prose — burst the Ameraaia case. Now, I can tell you about that 
practically out of my skull, out of my head. I won't read this 
off, but I may refer to my notes. 



"John Stewart Service" Arrested by the FBI, June 6, 1945 

C. Service: My mother and father went east in May, [1945]. My father was 

having his fiftieth West Point reunion on June 5. By this time 
they knew I would be going east and living with Jack. I planned 
to leave on June 15, which was right after the end of school. In 
fact, I think school ended that day, and the children and I would 
take the afternoon train which used to run out of Berkeley, The 
City of San Francisco [Southern Pacific] . 

Levenson: Didn't it go out of Oakland? 

C. Service: It stopped in Berkeley too in those days. [Laughter] 

Levenson: Oh, how marvelous. 

C. Service: In those days it stopped in Berkeley. We actually had a train 
here. It started in Oakland, but it stopped in Berkeley. Then 
it started up again and went to Chicago. 

One of my two very close friends in Berkeley during the war 
was Kate Await. The other was Frances Rowell. These two friends 
made all the difference to me. I got to know them well. They 
had children just the age of Ginny, two daughters. Each had a 

On the night of June 6, [1945], Kate Await came over to sit 
in the living room with me about 7:00 p.m. Why I don't know. 
I guess because she and her husband had finished dinner. Maybe 
she just stopped by to say hello. The phone rang and I answered 
it. It was one of my oldest childhood friends, Jean Mclntyre. 

The first thing she said to me was, "Caroline, what is Jack's 
name?" I said, "Jack?" I said, "What do you mean? His name is 
Jack." She said, "No, what is his full name?" I said, "His name 


C. Service: is John Stewart Service." That's the first* time John Stewart 
Service really came into ray life, except when we got married, 
in the sense that it was on the wedding announcement. She said, 
"Well, you better turn on the radio. He has been arrested by the 
FBI." I said, "Jean, it's impossible." 1 said, "It can't—" 
You know, I said all the things one says. "It can't be true." 
She said, "Turn on the radio. I am coming right up." 

Levenson: What did you feel at that point? 

C. Service: I felt absolute disbelief and as though it had nothing to do with 
me. Let us just say I could not take it in. 

She said, "I'm coming up." So, I went back to the living 
room and I told Kate this. I said, "Turn on the radio." It was 
in the living room. No TV, you see. So, we turned it on and 
pretty soon this announcement came that six people had been 
arrested in something which came to be called the Amerasia case. 

Amerasia was a very small magazine edited by Philip Jaffe. 
It was, I think, influential in Far Eastern circles, but nobody 
else had ever heard of it. It was one of these obscure, small 
magazines that nobody's ever heard of. 

Anyway, I called my sister Katharine who was living in 
San Francisco at the time. She said she would come over 
immediately. She called Harry Sanders, who was an old and 
dear family friend from the New Orleans days, and who was an 
informal financial adviser to my parents. Harry Sanders said 
he would come over. 

So, Jean Mclntyre came, my sister Katherine — Katherine Bruce 
her name is; I guess I've got that somewhere — and Harry Sanders. 
I called the obstetrician. His name was Ernest Page, but that 
doesn't matter, except the Page family and the Service family 
were old friends. Anyway, he prescribed some sleeping pills 
which I got. I took one although I didn't need it really. 

In the meantime we kept listening to the radio. Then, I 
talked with my sister-in-law, Helen Service, who was in Washington. 
Whether I called her or she called me I do not know. 

The names of the five other people who were arrested were all 
unknown to me, except for Andrew Roth, whom I'd heard speak at 
some sort of a gathering the November before. I really didn't 
know anything about any of them nor how Jack was connected with 
them in any way, except what finally came out in the paper. 


C. Service: I must have talked with Helen. Jack was locked up in the district 
jail, totally stunned. 1 guess she told me this. 

The next morning my poor parents read the whole lurid story 
in the New York Times when they were down at breakfast in their 
hotel. They had left West Point and I had not known what hotel 
they were staying in in New York. So, I could not call them. 
So, their first knowledge of this was from the New York Times . 
They called me. I talked also with Jack's mother who in some 
ways had it worst of all. 

Levenson: How so? 

C. Service: Because she was all alone. She was a widow, all alone, nobody 

down there in Claremont. I had relatives and friends. My parents 
had each other. Mrs. Service's missionary friends were not very 
good to her, some of them. Some of them were, but some of them 
were not. 

Levenson: What did they do? 

C. Service: Well, I think a few said mean things to her. I never really knew. 
Some of them, I think, turned on her in a way. For one thing they 
were very pro Chiang Kai-shek. I think they said, well it was too 
bad, but Jack deserves it and all kinds of things of that sort. 
1 don't really know. She never said, but 1 do know she was 
terribly wounded by some of the attitudes. She was a very proud 
woman, and you can imagine what this did to her. 

We've seen enough of it in recent years in Watergate. I've 
often thought, you know, the Watergate children, what a terrible 
time they've had. But, how about the Watergate parents? Terrible. 
It really, really must have been terrible for our parents. 

Jack's father had died in Shanghai in 1935. I was always 
glad that he wasn't alive. He could not have understood anything 
about it. He was a very unsophisticated man when it came to 
anything political. This was a political thing. 

The Families ' Reaction: Confidence in Jack 

Levenson: Did you at any time — after all you'd seen very little of Jack for, 
what, nearly five years — ? 

C. Service: For four years and a half I'd seen very little of Jack. Right. 
Levenson: Did you ever at any time believe any of the charges? 


C. Service: No. Never. Neverl I couldn't, not only because of Jack, but 
because they were so unrealistic and so totally outside the 
framework of anything that I knew about Jack. Also, there was 
absolutely no reason — I mean to just get down to the bare 
bones — there was no reason why these charges could have been so. 
Jack was removed in time and space from these people. 

Some of Jack's reports had been found in Amerasia's office. 
I'm not trying to say the Amerasia people were all noxious sinners 
I don't think anybody in that case was. I never met any of them, 
except this one man Roth I may have met at the meeting. I doubt 
if any of them felt they were in a conspiracy of any description. 
Things were leaked to the Amerasia people, right, but I don't 
think any of them were involved in spying, espionage, anything 
like that. No, they were trying to put out a magazine. 

Levenson: Right. 

C. Service: Exactly what I think they were trying to do. I thought so then. 
I think so now after all these years. 

Levenson: What about the rest of the family? Did they believe in Jack's 

C. Service: Our own family, my family, my parents, Jack's mother, all my 
sisters, nobody in the family ever turned against us, nobody. 
I had a wonderful letter from Jack's mother years later — I would 
like to find it — in which she said some very kind things about my 
parents, that they had never said anything to her about Jack, or 
not trusted him implicitly and so on. They were shocked and 
horrified, but I don't think they ever, anybody ever, felt that 
Jack in any way had let them down. 

He was a victim of circumstances. He was a victim somewhat 
of, let us say, his own trustingness . Also, Jack had been used 
to talking to newspaper people in Chungking. There was a very 
free interchange of information between the embassy and the 
newspaper people there. 

Levenson: Was that part of his duty? 

C. Service: Yes. That's what he was supposed to do. So, Jack perhaps — 
Well, he did make inquiries about [Philip] Jaffe, and he did 
make inquiries about this magazine, [Amerasia] , but nobody really 
gave him a clue to beware of them. So, he just went on. 

He also talked to many other newspaper people. He was one 
of the few people to come home who had been in Yenan. The others 
had not all gotten home yet. It was a briefing type of thing. 
Jack made the mistake of showing Jaffe some of his reports, which 
is all common knowledge . 


Levenson: Right. 

C. Service: But, copies of many of Jack's reports had been found in Jaffe's 
office. There was no way for Jack to have ever done this. Jack 
was in Chungking and Yenan at the time. This was about, well, 
this was early in the spring. I think this is what got the FBI 
started on the investigation. 

Erwin Griswold's Advice; "Get a Lawyer" 

C. Service: Anyway, the next morning I had a telegram from Erwin Griswold. 
Now, Erwin Griswold at that time — well I'm not sure what he was 
at that time. He became the dean of the Harvard Law School and 
he later became solicitor general. He was an old friend of mine, 
more than of Jack's. He had gone to Oberlin, class of 1925. He 
had a brother and a sister and a cousin who were all in Oberlin 
at the same time we were. 

I met Erwin on a train, strangely enough. He was going to 
Cleveland and I was going back to Oberlin. We struck up a 
conversation when he heard my parents say, "Let us know when you 
get to Oberlin." He was sitting across the aisle and he said, 
"Did I hear you say Oberlin? I said, "Yes," and then he asked 
me if 1 knew his sister and his brother and his cousin. I said, 
"Yes," so we had a conversation. Then, at the next spring's senior 
prom he came to Oberlin for a reunion or something, and I saw him 
again. Then, I had several dates with him. This was the summer 
after I graduated from college. He married a Stanford graduate, 
the daughter of an old friend of his family. Erwin and I have 
seen each other once in a while through the years, at Oberlin or 

But, anyway, it was very kind of him to send this telegram. 
His advice in it was for Jack to get a lawyer. He asked if he 
could help and so on, but his main point was, "You must get a lawyer." 

Jack Bailed Out: The Family Goes East 

C. Service: The night of June 7, [1945], Jack phoned me from Helen's. Now, 
he had been bailed out. The bail was set at $500. My sister- 
in-law, Helen, raised it, had it. We paid her back later, but 
she was the one who provided the bail. Marty [C. Martin] Wilbur, 
Jack's oldest friend, went down with Helen, I think, to see if he 


C. Service: could see Jack in the jail, but they wouldn't let him see Jack. 
Paul Tenney, a Foreign Service officer and an old friend from 
Shanghai days, also went down with Helen. I've met somebody 
in recent years who said he went down, but his name I cannot 
remember. I wish I could. I think there were other people who 
tried to see Jack, but nobody was allowed to see him. 

After the bail was posted, Jack went to Helen's apartment 
and I talked with him. I say tin the 1971 notes] that Helen 
was a real tower of strength to us all. Talking with Jack made 
me feel optimistic. Just hearing his voice gave me courage. 
Helen's husband, Dick Service, was in China. Jack's other 
brother, Bob, and his wife, Esta, were in California. 

We decided the best thing to do was just to follow our 
original plans. The children and I should come east on the 
fifteenth, because the tickets were in hand and our household 
effects were coming. Also Jack had rented a house before this 
all happened. We were going to go into a little rented house 
on Bradley Lane. Goodness, we hadn't lived in a house 
together — and everything. 

It was, you know — All of this was as though I were — 
Even today it all seems as though it didn't happen, but it did 
happen . 

The children went off to school the next day. I saw no 
reason to keep them home. I went to a Pfarents] T[eachers] 
Association] meeting. Of course, everybody had read the paper. 
Everybody was very nice. A few people asked me about Jack. 
I said that he was all right. You know, I just knew you have 
to go on doing what you're doing. 

So, on June 15, [1945], we started east, the children and I 
on the train. On the train one thing, about the only thing I 
remember was that somebody was reading Time magazine in the lounge 
car. I could see what they were reading. They were reading all 
about the AmerasAa case. It went through my head, "Wouldn't they 
be surprised if they knew who was sitting opposite them?" [laughter] 
which was totally irrelevant. But, all I could think of was, what 
if I leaned over and pointed to that and said, "That's my husband" 
to this person. He would have jumped out of his chair. But, I 
did not do anything like that. All kinds of funny things go through 
your head. 

We got to Washington on June 18. Jack met us and we went to 
the little house on Bradley Lane. There were odds and ends of 
furniture there. The furniture had all been shipped home from 
Shanghai when Jack went to Chungking, had been in storage here 


C. Service: for years. Some of It we had sold when Jack came home once. The 
rest came, bits and pieces of furniture, lots of china, you know, 
that kind of stuff. 

We settled into the house. My parents came to Washington to 
help us and to stay until after the baby was born. I had to find 
an obstetrician. Philip was born on August 6, [1945], which was 
exactly two months after Jack was arrested. The obstetrician 
here had given me several names, a list of names that he found in 
the book of Washington obstetricians. The first two either 
couldn't take me or were going to be away in August. 

The third one was a Dr. Alec Preece. He was English, had a 
fine English accent. I was quite pleased about this because 
Ginny had been delivered by an English midwife, Bob had been 
delivered by a Canadian doctor, and now I would have an English 
doctor. So, this all seemed to fit in. 1 was quite pleased with 
the idea of this. All kinds of little things seemed to be meaningful 
to me at that time. 

Friends Rally Round 

C. Service: We had lots of friends in Washington. I'd like to read some of 

this. All of our friends were good to us. We had one or two bad 
experiences which I'll tell about later but not right now. [Begins 

Many of them got together in groups to see 
what they could do to help. Our Oberlin 
friends, led by Persis and Bun Gladieux, 
were especially helpful. [Stops reading; 
makes personal comment.] 

I think at that time Bun worked for the Bureau of the Budget. 
Later on he worked in the Department of Commerce. He finally 
left the government to work for a big firm in New York, but he's 
always been active in and around Washington and New York, knows 
lots of people, and was extremely helpful in giving advice, telling 
us what to do and what not to do. They were just wonderful to us. 
He was the class ahead of us, both of them, in Oberlin. [Resumes 
reading . ] 

John Reid, whose sister and brother-in-law 
we knew well, Harriet and Roger Clapp, all 
Oberlin, came round to see what he could 
do. Later he and his wife Peggy, as well 
as Harriet and Roger, were an enormous help 


C. Service: to us. It was John Reid who took care 

of the fund that was finally raised by 
Jack's friends in and out of the State 
Department to help with financial ex 
penses. [Stops reading; makes personal 
comment. ] 


He is a lawyer in Washington, partner in a big law firm. Good 
sound Republican. [Chuckle] He also had been in Oberlin, but 
after we had been there. 

Our old friends, Tasha and Jim Gage — now, 
they go back to Oberlin — lent us $1000. 
Jim came to the train in Chicago with the 
check in hand. Tasha, who was expecting 
her second child, stayed in Beloit. They 
loaned us another similar sum after Jack 
was fired. We were able to pay both these 
amounts back eventually as we were able to 
do with all our other loans except those 
that were outright gifts. Jack had fine 
and heartwarming letters from both Stilwell 
and Gauss after his arrest. Mr. Gauss sent 
him a check for $500 to help him defray 
legal expenses. I think that both General 
Stilwell and Mr. Gauss felt that they were 
being got at through Jack, to some extent. 

Perhaps this is just supposition on my part. [Resumes reading.] 

All of our Foreign Service friends were 
our staunch supporters too. In fact 
there were so many good friends giving us 
support and strength and good wishes I 
cannot begin to name or list them. 

I can't. I couldn't possibly. 

Only one or two people fell away. They, 
I think, did not like Jack anyway, or 
disagreed with him so violently that they 
did not wish in any way to be associated 
with him. One or two people were frightened. 


Max Bishop 

C. Service: Max Bishop was an enemy to .lack and John F.mnierson. Now Max 

was named Max Schmidt originally. He was in the Foreign Scrvlc-o. 
His last post was ambassador to Thailand. He was a Japan lan^u'iK? 
man, I think. In any event he really, I think, hated Jack, and he 
didn't like John Emmerson. He did much harm, tried to harm both 
of them. 

Levenson: Why? Do you know? 

C. Service: I do not know whether just because he didn't agree with them, 

whether because of jealousy. But, there was no reason for that. 
I do not know. He became an extreme right-winger and still is. 
I would say it was an ideological thing. He may well have 
believed that Jack and John Emmerson and John Davies were trying 
to bring down the republic, for all I know. I've met him only 
once and that was years ago. He changed his name to Bishop. 
Bishop was his mother's name, and I think he did not like the 
name Schmidt. Maybe during the war he decided he could do without 
a German name. 

Levenson: Was he Jewish? 

C. Service: I don't believe so. No. No. Just changed from German to 

English — Bishop. I don't know why he didn't change to Smith. 
[Chuckle] Well, he didn't. He changed to Bishop. He did do 
things which I'll mention later. 

The Grand Jury Hearings; Jack Cleared Unanimously 

C. Service: The Grand Jury hearings were going to be in July, [1945]. But 
that Grand Jury — time ran out. So, they had to impanel another 
Grand Jury. This pushed the court hearings into August. 

All of the defendants were given the choice of going before 
the Grand Jury without benefit of counsel if they wanted to. TAe. 
six were Andrew Roth, Mark Gayn, Kate Mitchell, Philip Jaffe, and 
Emmanuel S. Larsen — who had a really rough time of it because he 
didn't have a cent to his name — I think his life has been terribly 
battered and shattered — and Jack. 

Anyway Miss Mitchell, and Mark Gayn, and Jack chose to go 
before the Grand Jury. Jack had gotten a lawyer through Judge 
[Milton John] Helmick. His name was Godfrey Munter. 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 


C. Service: Judge Helmick and his wife had lived in the same apartment house 

we had in Shanghai. Judge Helmick was the judge of the U.S. Court 
in China. We had known them quite well. It was very kind of him 
to recommend a lawyer to Jack. 

Jack was scheduled to go before the Grand Jury on August 3, 
which was his thirty-sixth birthday. This was all in the summer 
of '45 — the long, hot summer of '45. 

When he went to the court on that day, his case did not come 
up. So, they rescheduled him to appear on August 6, Monday. Now, 
this was the day that was chosen for our child to be born because 
Dr. Alec Preece lived over in Virginia and I lived out in Maryland. 
I have my children very quickly. Ginny was born in about two 
hours and Bob in about an hour and a half. Anyway, he wanted to 
be sure to be there and he just decided he would induce labor. 
I think Philip wasn't due till a few days later, but Dr. Preece 
picked out August 6, Monday. 

So, then it turned out Jack was to go to the Grand Jury 
again on that Monday, the day that the baby was to be born. But, 
I went into the hospital anyway on the night of August 5, the 
Columbia Hospital for Women in Washington. Philip was born at 
12:10 p.m., August 6. Jack was there, still there. I saw him. 
Then, he went to the Grand Jury. I say here [in her notes] he 
rushed to the court. He was due to appear before the Grand Jury 
at 1:00 o'clock. I woke up long enough to know I had another 
fine son and went back to sleep till about four in the afternoon. 
Now, I'm going to read this. 

When I woke this time, my father was 
sitting by my side reading the afternoon 
paper, the Evening Star. It carried the 
cataclysmic news of the dropping of the 
first atom bomb on Hiroshima. That was 
August 6, 1945. Our old friend, Leslie 
Richard Groves, major-general, figured 
largely in it. He had been the head of 
the Manhattan Project. 

My immediate reaction was extremely 
personal. Here I'd spent nine long 
months producing one human being and in 
a few seconds 100,000 had been wiped out. 
(I believe that 80,000 is the figure now 
used.) It seemed to me monstrous then and 
it still does. 

I had known Dick Groves since I was 
thirteen years old. We always called 
him Dick. He was a first lieutenant of 


C. Service: Engineers, in the Third Engineer regiment 

when my father was commanding it. He had 
married a Seattle girl, Grace Wilson, 
always called Buddha, and we were old, 
old friends. I felt that this was some 
thing he had done personally to me. 

This was illogical and unfair. I know. But, I did. I thought, 
"Dick Groves, how could you have done this?" It was terrible — 
But, it was like some of these other feelings that I had at this 
time. You know, just little things made a terrific impression 
on me. The atom bomb was not a little thing, but I mean the fact 
that Dick Groves had been connected with it, was connected with it. 
Of course, his name was flashed all over. 

Jack arrived shortly after 5:00 o'clock, 
and he felt that things had gone well before 
the Grand Jury. But, we were not to know 
until the following Friday that the Grand 
Jury had given him a clean bill, twenty to 

Because of the end of the war in Japan, 
the publicity for Jack's clearance was 
nothing as compared with the notoriety of 
his arrest two months earlier. But, the 
main thing was that Jack was a free and 
innocent man and we could put our lives , 
so long separated and then so violently 
jarred, back together. Jack received fine 
letters from both Secretary of State 
[James F.] Byrnes and Undersecretary of 
State [Joseph C.] Grew. 

I wanted Jack to stay in Washington, 
but the Far Eastern division in the 
State Department decided that Jack should 
get away from Washington and from all 
unpleasantness. They felt it would be 
useful for him to be an assistant to 
George Atcheson, who was going out on 
[General Douglas] MacArthur's staff. 

Posted to Japan; Caroline in Washington 

C. Service: Jack was to go out with Atcheson, and John Emmerson, and 

Max Bishop. They were all going to be on MacArthur's staff — Jack 
because he spoke Chinese, and they needed a China man. John 
Emmerson and Max Bishop were Japan people. 


C. Service: The children and I could stay in Washington. Well, I could 

hardly bear this idea, to think that Jack was going to go away 
again. I had a six weeks old baby when he left. He left In 
late September. Here I was with a house, with two children, 
and a baby. I really felt stranded. I didn't want to go back 
to my family obviously. Nor did they want me to come back. It 
was nice to be in Washington. I had lots of friends. But, I 
didn't have any car. I had a new baby and no help. I really 
was frantic. 

Also, I thought our phone was tapped and I still think so. 
I'm convinced it was tapped. Not that it made any difference, 
whether it was tapped or not. There was nothing I was going to 
say on the phone that everybody couldn't hear. 

Levenson: What made you think it was tapped? 

C. Service: I think it was tapped because they were just tapping Jack's 
phone. I think maybe they took the tap off after he went to 
Japan. I don't know. But certainly during that summer in 
Washington — I'm sure it was tapped. 

Levenson: Did Jack think so? 

C. Service: Yes, we both did. There was some reason to think so, something — 
I really don't know. I do not know. I think that we just felt 
it was, and maybe this was simply a kind of hysteria on our part, 
that we thought the phone must be tapped. I really don't know 
anymore than that. Maybe people said to us, "Be careful what 
you say on the phone. It's tapped." I don't know. It was a 
sort of melodramatic type of idea, but life was pretty melodramatic 

Anyway, Jack went off and I stayed in Washington. The idea 
was that eventually I would go to Japan when wives were allowed 
to go. 

My sister-in-law, Helen, lived nearby. She was very helpful. 
Then Peggy Reid turned up with a car. Her neighbor had an old, 
twelve year old Cadillac coupe that he would sell me for $200. 
I bought it for $200, and I think I got about seven miles or 
eight miles to the gallon. But, that didn't matter. I had 
wheels . 

Levenson: Right. 

C. Service: Eventually when I left Washington I sold it for $200. The car was 
one of these enormous things you can't imagine. It had one seat 
in front. The two children and I could sit there. It had a wide 


C. Service: shelf back of that, and I could put Philip on that. So, it really 
saved my life. I could take them out. I could go out at night. 
I could get babysitters. If anybody asked me to dinner I could 
go. Otherwise, it would have been a question of buses or never 
going. It was too expensive to take taxis. So, just this car 
made all the difference in my feelings about everything. 

Ginny and Bob went to the local public school where Virginia's 
children are now going today. History has repeated itself in that 
sense, but only in that sense. 

Hurley's Accusations; Who Lost China? 

C. Service: In late November, [1945] — I had got very leery of phones and 
radios — but in late November the phone rang one noon, and a 
friend said, "You better listen to the radio because Hurley has 
resigned and he is blowing everybody up and saying that Jack 
and George. Atcheson and John Davies" — and I don't know whether 
John Emmerson too — but anyway that "they have lost China, and 
he's resigning because they were subversive and because they 
undermined him." I don't think he used the word subversive, 
but that they ruined his mission to China, and he was resigning 
because of them and they were terrible people and should be 
kicked out of the State Department. 

Levenson: Was this the first public notice of the group that came to be 
called "the China hands"? 

C. Service: I would say so, yes. Yes, I think they weren't called that then, 
but that is certainly what it was . 

So, then this created an enormous storm. The Senate decided 
they would have hearings and look into Hurley's accusations. 
They did not call Jack and George Atcheson home. Nor did they 
call any of the others, but they got Secretary Byrnes down there, 
and they got various other people. Of course they got Hurley. 
They had a regular senatorial hearing, the kind you see on TV now 
all the time . 

I went to some of the hearings when I could go. But, I had 
to get down there early in the mornings. Somebody had to take 
care of the baby. But, Helen did take care of the baby, and I 
went to two or three. I saw Hurley, heard him give his testimony. 
I went down the day Secretary Byrnes was testifying. He was very 


Caroline's Reactions to the Senate Hearings 

Levenson: How did you react? 

C. Service: I had mixed feelings. For one thing I thought they'd bring 
Jack home and that rather pleased me. I thought, "Certainly 
they've got to bring Jack home." But, they didn't. 

Hurley did not ever get a good press except from the 
right-wing press. Actually Jack and the others nearly always 
had a good press except from the right-wing and people who were 
violently opposed to our China policy such as the China Lobby. 
A lot of people just thought Hurley was a blowhard, which he was. 

Levenson: But, he got enough people to listen to him for enough years — 

C. Service: Yes, he did get enough people, and he ruined careers. But, I 
never believed that anything he said was going to make much 
difference in our lives. 

I may have been foolish in feeling this way because he 
did harm us greatly. But, I didn't feel that he was going to 
do this. I didn't feel this was the effect it would have because 
his accusations were so wild and so unfounded in any fact. If 
you read them in books today they sound just absolutely haywire. 

Levenson: Oh yes. 

C. Service: So, I had this feeling Hurley was haywire on this subject. And 

he was so full of his own ego, surely one of the most egotistical 
men that ever appeared on the American political scene. 

Levenson: You haven't quite answered the question as I put it to you — 
C. Service: Okay. 

Levenson: — which was, "How did you feel when you heard Hurley making 

these ridiculous and untrue but dangerous accusations against 
Jack and his colleagues?" 

C. Service: I don't like to use the term, but I just felt he was crazy. 

That's literally what I thought, "crazy" in terms of not knowing 
what he was talking about. I felt he did not know what he was 
talking about. 

Levenson: But, he didn't frighten you? 

C. Service: No. No. No, I do not recall that he frightened me at all. No. 


Levenson: Did you feel hostile to him? It'd be surprising if you didn't. 

C. Service: Yes. But it's very hard for me to explain my feelings. I don't 
generally feel hostile to people unless they do something which 
I think they're doing to hurt the children or Jack or me. If 
they do something mean that's meant to stick a knife into me, 
that arouses my hostility more than something that's impersonal. 

Now, I felt Hurley didn't know Jack really. He knew him, 
but I mean what did he really know about Jack? So, although 
everything he was saying was calculated to harm Jack terribly, 
I thought if Hurley knew the truth about Jack he wouldn't be 
saying it. Now, this doesn't make any sense, you see. I felt 
if he only knew the truth about Jack he would not be saying 
these stupid things. 

So, my feeling about Hurley was not a personal feeling. 
It was just that he was a dumb, dumb man and perhaps senile. 
[Pats interviewer's knee.] You know, words like that. But, 
if I'd met Hurley face to face, I wouldn't have wanted to do 
anything to him. I would have said, "Look, you're all wrong. 
Why don't you try to find out what you're really talking 
about — or what my husband's really like," I would have said. 

That's the only way I can explain it. Of course I was mad 
and all those things. I'm not saying that I'm any Pollyanna 
about this. I am not. I was mad and I was furious and I could 
see that Jack's career was going to get another hammering and 
all those things. Of course, it stirred up all the Amerasia 
business again. I felt terrible about this. It was hard for 
the children. I hated to turn on the radio. I didn't want 
the children hearing things. That's the best way I can answer 
what you're saying, answer the question. 

Levenson: That's a very understandable answer. I just wanted to hear you 
expand a little on it. 

C. Service: Yes, I think that actually to be terribly hurt by somebody you 
have to be awfully close to them. Does that make any sense? 

Levenson: Oh, yes. 

C. Service: People you are not close to, probably they can harm you and they 
can injure you, but hurt you, inside hurt, that's a different 
ratter. — Pause — 

Well, after it was all over, after the hearings were over, 
I wanted to send a copy — I wanted to see if I could send a 
transcript of the hearings to Jack out in Japan and also to 


C. Service: George Atcheson and the people there. I heard a friend of 
Dorothy Emmerson's was going to go out. His name was Jack 
[George H. ] Kerr. Now, we've become great friends here in 
Berkeley. Do you know him? 

Levenson: Oh, yes. 

C. Service: Yes. Well, Jack Kerr, whom at that time I'd never laid eyes on, 
was going out to Japan and he volunteered to carry out , to take 
with him, a copy of the transcript if I could get it. I met him 
at dinner at Dorothy Emmerson's. 

Dorothy and I had become great friends during this winter 
in Washington. We had not known each other before, but I 
discovered she ironed late at night when I was up feeding Philip 
a bottle. Philip was a screamer. He had colic. So, I'd be 
feeding Philip his bottle late at night and I'd think, "Well, 
Dorothy's awake; she's ironing or doing something," — the only 
time in my life I'd ever really been up late except in diplomatic 
things — so, I'd call her up and we'd talk on the phone. She 
ironed with one hand and I fed Philip with one hand and we 
talked. We had become great friends. 

I went around to the people who did stenographic work for 
the government. It's not done by people who are in the govern 
ment. I think they farm out the work. 

Anyway, I called the people up and asked them if I could 
buy a copy of the transcript from them. They said they would 
give me a copy. They would not take any money. Now, I think 
this shows how crazy they thought Hurley was. 

Levenson: Yes . 

C. Service: Obviously their sympathy was with Jack and the others, and 

they just must have thought Hurley was a madman in his accusations. 

So, they gave me a copy. I do not know the name of the 
firm. I do not know the name of any of them, but I was extremely 
grateful. I sent this out to Japan with Jack Kerr. 

Well, that's about all of that. Everything simmered down. 
Nothing else was happening. It was decided that in May or June, 
r !946], I would go out to Berkeley and wait there till I could 
t 3 to Japan because I thought I could probably soon go to Japan. 
The school year was going to come to an end and I would go. 

In April, Jack got jaundice. He got hepatitis, infectious 
hepatitis. He was put in Saint Luke's Hospital in Tokyo and 
that was the end of his work in Japan. He was in the hospital 
for four months. But, he wasn't sick most of the time. [Laughter] 
He was there. 


Max Bishop Again 

C. Service: But before I finish with the Japan part, I'll go back to Max 
Bishop. As I said, Jack was one of MacArthur's political 
advisers. One of the enlisted men came to Jack one day — he may 
have come to John Emmerson too — and said, "Look, you got to 
watch out for this guy," meaning Max Schmidt, Max Bishop, 
"because he is copying your reports and sending them to the 
FBI." He was making copies of them and giving them to security 
people, I suppose. Jack said, "Well, okay, let him do it because 
they can read them all they want; there's nothing in them." But, 
Max Bishop was doing this. 

He also testified later against John Emmerson. He was going 
behind their backs. He was informing on them. He did try to 
harm them. 

Now, Max Bishop I feel very bitter about because he knew 
Jack and John well. They were all in the same office, they 
presumably trusted each other, and yet he was doing this kind 
of thing. He harmed John Emmerson much more than he harmed 
Jack. I really feel this was a terrible thing to do. He was 
the only person in the Foreign Service that I know of — now, I 
know of other people who do not like Jack to this day a'nd probably 
could not say anything good about him — but, Max Bishop is the 
only one I know of who went out of his way to try to harm him, 
and he did that. 

Some Afterthoughts; Generals Groves, Patton, and Maxwell Taylor 

C. Service: I would like to go back and fill in a few things which I neglected. 
I want to go back to Leslie Richard Groves, the Manhattan Project 

After I was home and out of the hospital after Philip was 
born, the doorbell rang one night. Jack had already gone to Japan. 
I opened the door and here were Dick and Buddha Groves at the 
front door. 

I looked a bit astonished. I said, well, hello, and so on. 
I hadn't seen them in years. They said they'd come to call on 
Mother and Father. 


C. Service: So, I said, "Come in." I said Father and Mother had left Washington. 
Dick Groves gave a great groan, and he said, "Good heavens, this is 
the only call I've made in three years." [Laughter] He said, "What 
am I doing here?" or words to that effect. 

Anyway, they came in, and they visited with me about half an 
hour. I thought that was very sweet of them to come and call on 
Mother and Father because Dick was a very important and busy man 
at that time. But, they were very old friends, and Father had 
been his commanding officer long ago. 

Then I want to go back to Schofield Barracks. Two of the 
other people at Schofield Barracks who became famous were Generals 
George Fatten and Maxwell Taylor. Patton was a major in one of 
the infantry regiments when we were there. He was about the only 
man I'd ever met at that time in the army who had a cent of money 
outside of his army pay. He had his own polo ponies. The Fattens 
were wealthy, everyone understood. He made a great stir because 
of this fact that they had means of their own and that he had his 
own polo ponies. He was a forceful, rather swashbuckling person 
even in those days. A man who threw his weight around, definitely. 

Then, the other person was Maxwell Taylor who was in the 
Third Engineers, in my father's regiment. He was twenty- two years 
old when I first met him, a second lieutenant of Engineers. He 
later became chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He was also 
commandant at West Point. Anyway, he became a man with a great 
deal of influence, and a man of great character, as well as brains. 

When his tour was over with the Third Engineers , he trans 
ferred to the field artillery. I suppose the reason was that he 
didn't really want to be on river and harbor work. Also there was 
little way in the Engineer Corps to get to the top in the army. 
You had to be in some other line, some other branch. 

Every so often through the years we have met. When Mother 
and Father and I and the children went to Tokyo in 1937 from 
Peking, Max was a Japanese language student then. He was a 
captain. Because of Mother and Father we saw Max and his wife. 
They had us to dinner and we had a very pleasant reunion. 

Then, I'm not sure that I did see them again for years. But, 
after Jack was fired — At that time the Taylors were living at 
Fort Myc.r, and he must have been Deputy Chief of Staff then. I 
don't know if they had the Joint Chiefs yet. Suddenly one day 
Jack and I had an invitation to a cocktail party at their house. 
This was very shortly after Jack was fired. 

Levenson: That was very nice. 


C. Service: Wasn't that noble of them? It really was, because there was no 
particular reason for them to do this although they had met Jack 
and they had known me since I was a girl of thirteen. Our paths 
had not crossed that much. Jack, unfortunately, had the flu. 
So, he could not go. But, I went. I went with some Foreign 
Service friends. 

The main thing I remember about the party was how pleasant 
Max Taylor and his wife, Diddie, were to me. I don't know how 
you spell it, D-i-d-d-i-e, I think. Her real name was something 
quite different. I'm trying to think what it was. I should 
know, but I don't. And how astonished a number of people were 
to see me there! They would have been even more astonished if 
Jack had turned up, because at this point our social life was 
pretty restricted. People looked amazed. I did mention to one 
or two people that I'd known Max and Diddie Taylor ever since 
I was a girl. 

Caroline's Record Keeping: Correspondence with Lisa Green 

Levenson: Perhaps this is a good time to ask about your correspondence with 
Lisa Green that's gone on for so many years, and the notes you 
wrote for her. 

C. Service: These notes are from my letters to Lisa Green. She was the 

catalyst for them. Lisa Green is fifty-two and I'm sixty-seven, 
so she's closer to my daughter's age than she is to mine. But 
we became great friends in New Zealand when she was in her early 
twenties and I was in my late thirties. 

When Lisa and Marshall left, we gave a cocktail party for 
them. Lisa wrote back to thank me, but the letter was much more 
than that. It was a chatty, amusing, warm letter. So, after a 
while I answered it because I wanted to tell her about everybody 
in Wellington and what they were doing and about all our friends 
and so on. Soon I got another letter from Lisa. I like to write 
letters so pretty soon I answered it. Well, I don't think either 
of us thought that we were starting a correspondence which was to 
go on for years and years and years, forever practically. But, 
by the time Jack and I left New Zealand [1948], a year later, 
Lisa and I had started a real correspondence. 

Then, we were in Washington together until I went to 
India [1950]. In India we started our letters again. The 
Greens were transferred to Sweden, but not till after that 
summer when Jack — well, I'll come back to this — but, I actually 


C. Service! 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

used the Greens' house as a mailing address for Jack. Jack was 
going around living with various friends. He lived with the 
Freemans for months — with Tony and Phyllis Freeman who were dear, 
dear friends. He didn't live with the Greens, but he was always 
in touch with them. Lisa would always deliver any mail to him. 
Hers was the main address I had. And Lisa went to the Senate 
hearings and wrote me all the details of those, and any other 
information she was able to glean. And she wrote me how Jack 
was bearing it all. 

Then, in India I began keeping Lisa's letters because the 
Greens got to Sweden just, I think, before the old king died. 
She wrote all about his big funeral services and the letter was 
fascinating. Later, they went to England when Queen Elizabeth 
was crowned. She wrote all about this. By this time I'd started 
keeping all her letters. So, about every six months or a year 
now, we ship our letters back to each other, which is why I have 
my letters to Lisa and she has her letters to me. But they only 
start when I was in India. Those are the first letters we kept. 
The period between '46 and '50, I don't have. Except for when 
we have been in Washington at the same time, and on one or two 
other rare occasions , we have written to each other on an average 
of, let us say, once a week at least. 

How marvelous, 

It's like keeping a diary with a friend listening 

It is a little like keeping a diary, except that we answer each 
other's letters. So, it's more than that. 


Of course, Lisa's letters date almost from their start in life 
in the Foreign Service right through Marshall's rise to the top 
ranks of the State Department. He was assistant secretary for 
F[ar] E[ast] and he's been ambassador to Indonesia and ambassador 
to Australia. Earlier he was consul general in Hong Kong. They're 
in Washington now. 

But, anyway, this correspondence is something neither of us 
planned and yet which has developed into a part of our lives. 
Not only do we write about what we're doing, but we write about 
what wa're reading and we write about what we're thinking about 
things . 

Recently I reread Uncle Tom's Cabin. Did I tell you that? 


Well, I did, because I've been reading a lot about women. Did you 
see the special edition of Life on women — Remarkable American 


Levenson: Oh, yes. Well, I gave it to Jack in hospital. 

C. Service: That's right! Of coursel You did give it to us. I've bought 
nix copies since then. 

Levenson: Really? 

C. Service: Because I think it so remarkable. Reading about Harriet Beecher 
Stowe made me think, "Why don't I reread Uncle Tom's Cabin?" 
So, I wrote a whole letter to Lisa about what I think about 
Uncle. Tom's Cabin. That's all the letter was about. It's a 
truly remarkable book. 

The notes I've been quoting from are parts of a series of 
letters which I decided to write in 1971. I started with my 
earliest life. I did not refer to those letters during the 
first part of these meetings but I thought I'd better for this. 
These reminiscent letters go only to the New Zealand times, 
because in New Zealand I met Lisa. From there on I have the 
letters I wrote her, except for the gap of about three years. 
And there is a tiny gap just at the time Jack was fired because 
I wrote very little for about three or four weeks. 

In 1971, I decided I would write to Lisa a resume of my 
life up to the time we met. 

Levenson: Thank you. 

[end tape 2, side 1] 


VI NEW ZEALAND: 1946-1948 

[Interview 5: October 20, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

Good Times; New Zealand Posting 

C. Service: In April, [1946], Jack as I say got hepatitis. He was in the 
hospital for months. I came back to Berkeley, expecting to be 
here a month or two. I was with my poor family — let's see May, 
June, July, August, September — five months. 

About this point the State Department decided they would 
send Jack to Wellington, New Zealand. 

Levenson: Why? 

C. Service: Well, to get him out of the way! It was a great place to send 

people. They'd already sent a minister there, Avra Warren, who'd 
gotten himself into some sort of trouble with Spruille Braden. 
They'd sent Avra Warren to New Zealand to get him out of the way. 
He later became minister to Finland, ambassador to Pakistan, and 
ambassador to Turkey. His troubles vanished and he went up in 
the Foreign Service again. He was a very outspoken, outgoing, 
vigorous man. He wore me to a frazzle, just being near him, 
because he was so full of energy. Just energy. But, he was a 
very good friend of ours and a good friend to Jack. 

He didn't want Jack to come at all. We heard later that 
when he was told that Jack, John Stewart Service, was being 
sent to Wellington he nearly blew up. 

Levenson: Why? 

C. Service: Well, because he didn't know Jack. He said, "They're just send 
ing him down here to make more trouble for me. Here I am down 
here in Wellington. Now, they're sending this chap." I don't 
know that he used those words, but we heard that he really had 
a fit when he heard Jack was coming. 


C. Service: But, he decided there was nothing he could do about it. They 
were going to send Jack, and he. didn't protest. He let him 
come. I suppose if he had really protested the State Department 
wouldn't have sent Jack because they usually don't send anybody 
an ambassador doesn't want. Avra was still a minister then. 
I think he was always a minister in New Zealand because they 
didn't change it to an embassy until later. 

Levenson: So, how did you feel about the New Zealand posting? 

C. Service: I was pleased. I had never been to New Zealand, except coming 

home from China on the Monterey in 1940. I was excited, because 
it was part of the world I thought I'd like. Just the idea of 
being together, of having Jack back again, of having a family 
life, it was a simply wonderful feeling. 

[Referring to notes] The State Department now began to 
think they would send Jack to a healthful post — he'd been 
sick — not only for his physical health but for his professional 
health. Wellington was the chosen spot. It sounded wonderful 
to me. 

Then, he came home in September on a refrigerator ship, a 
freighter- type thing, refrigerated. He got into Oakland, landed 
right here in Oakland, on September 15. This was 1946. 

We were to sail to New Zealand on the old Monterey , the 
ship that I had left China on so many years before. 

In the interim we had to get ourselves 
ready, as well as take a trip to Claremont 
to see Jack's mother. Our furniture had been 
sitting in New York all this time, ever since 
I left Washington. It had been hauled up to 
New York, and there it sat. It could now be 
sent to Wellington. 

We got ourselves packed, rushed to 
Claremont and back in my sister's car, and 
said goodbye to all the family on a heavenly 
late September day, thirteen years after 
I'd sailed for China — almost exactly 
because I'd sailed on September 8, and 
this was three weeks later. 

Jack and Ginny, Bob, Philip, and I 
sailed for New Zealand and a new life 
together. It was to be two of the happiest 
years of our lives, the calm before the 
hurricane which was to tear away Jack's 
professional life and force us out of the 
Foreign Service for five years. 


C. Service: 

But, of course, we didn't know any of this, 
really — 

We thought we were 

Levens on : 

C. Service: 

[Resumes reading notes] I would not 
have missed New Zealand and the Wellington 
years for anything, not only because they 
meant great happiness, but because it was 
the beginning of our lifelong friendship 
with various people, American and New 
Zealand . 

We docked at Auckland on October 14 , 
and we went to Wellington, arriving the 
morning of the fifteenth, by train. The 
Warrens were at the station and they took 
us to a flat, 38A Fitzherbert Terrace, 
where we were to live for two years and 
two months . 

That's all I have written here. 

Wellington was a wonderfully happy post for us. We had 
been married almost thirteen years. When we arrived Jack was 
thirty-seven and I was about to be thirty-seven. Well, we were 
awfully young, weren't we? 


Jack was the number two man in the embassy. He had the rank of 
first secretary. There was no minister-counselor. So, there 
was Warren and Jack and there were two second secretaries, Alvin 
Seibert and R.C. Beverstock. Marshall Green was third secretary. 
That's when we became great friends with Marshall and Lisa. 
There were the Seiberts. She was Swedish. We had known them 
in China, She was the daughter of the Swedish minister there. 
Christina Seibert and Sei Seibert. And Genevieve and Bev [R.C.] 
Beverstock became our great, great friends. There were Alice 
and Den Woolf and Greta and Oz [Osbourne] Watson. Oz was the 
commercial attache, and Don was his assistant, good friends all; 
and Morgan Slay ton, the naval attache. Others were Forrest 
Cookson, the military attache, Orin Rigley, the air attache, and 
Normand Redden who eventually became consul general in Liverpool. 
We visited him and his New Zealand wife, Annabel, in Liverpool in 
our old home, Hawthorne House, in 1973. Both have been our long 
time friends. 

Then there was Anne Taylor, Avra Warren's personal secretary. 
She was a widow and had been a friend of the Warrens before 
coming to New Zealand. 


C. Service: Later, our second year there, Meade and Betty Foster, Forrest and 
Liz Daggett, Arthur and Midge Abbott, and Armistead (Armie) and 
Eleanor Lee came to the Wellington embassy. We formed strong 
friendships with them all, especially with the Lees and the 

We knew the New Zealand staff well, and Gwen Hall has 
remained a lifelong friend. She visited us this fall. It was 
a young group of people. I think Warren was only forty-eight. 

We made some wonderf ul New Zealand friends . The Lakings — he 
later became ambassador in Washington — Pat and George Laking. The 
Corners, Frank and Lyn. He later too became ambassador to 
Washington. They were very young, just starting out, in those 
days. We have stayed great friends through the years. 

Anyway, here we were, young, still young, reunited. The 
war was over. The Amerasia case, we thought, was forever behind 
us. There were no intimations that the cold war was going to 
start. At least if there were, I didn't know about it. Maybe 
it had already started, but I knew nothing about it at that time. 

Schools, and Housing, and Help 

C. Service: Ginny was eleven when we went to Wellington. Bob was nine, 
almost ten. Philip was a year old. Ginny went to a private 
girls' school very near us, but Bob went to a public school in 
Kelburn. Wellington is divided into sections with place names. 
We lived in Thorndon. The children wore school uniforms. It 
was very English. They could go anyplace they wanted to in 
Wellington. Nobody was fearful of anything. We didn't have 
to worry about anything. 

Things were still rationed because the war had only been 
over a year. We lived in an apartment, the second floor of a 
big house. That was why it was 38A. It had been rented by the 
American government. 

Very soon after we got there we had the good luck to get a 
housekeeper, Ann Gane. Ann was a wonderful addition to our lives 
and still is. She was twenty-six. She had a little girl, Louise, 
who was a year older than Philip. Louise's father was an American, 
He had not married Ann. He had simply departed. He sent her a 
subscription to Time magazine which was all she ever got from 
him, no support for the child, nothing. 

Levenson: Oh, dear. 


C. Service: New Zealand is a very broad minded — most people are today — but in 

those days, New Zealanders were tolerant and kind about such things, 
especially because, I guess, there had been so many Americans 
around, Ann had first thought she would have the child put up for 
adoption, but she decided she wouldn't. So, she left Louise with 
her mother for a while and came down to Wellington and got a job 
working for an English couple. They were going on home leave. 

There was a cateress in Wellington named Mrs. Adams. Mrs. Adams 
knew more about all of us than anybody else. We got her first, and 
then we gave the party. She knew I wanted somebody and she asked 
would I be willing to take somebody who had a child? I said, "Yes, 
I would." She said, "Well, I'll send somebody around to talk to you." 

So, Ann appeared one day with this little girl who had absolutely 
carrot-red hair, just flaming red. We liked each other immediately, 
Ann and I did. I asked her if she'd come and work for us and she 
said she would. I said I'd be glad to have Louise. 

She said she'd take Louise home first to her mother and leave 
her until she, Ann, got used to the place. I thought it might only 
be a temporary arrangement because I was afraid the English people 
would come back. But, I was desperate and I said, "Come." 

So, Ann came and she stayed with us the whole time. The 
English people came back, but they had somebody else. After a 
while Ann went home and got Louise and brought her to live with us. 
Our apartment had two great big bedrooms. Jack and I had one, and 
Louise and Philip, aged two and one, had the other one. Then there 
were two staff rooms. Ann was in one of those and Ginny was in the 
other. They had a bath between them, back of the kitchen. 

There was no room for Bob but we had a sun porch. So, we 
simply fixed that up and Bob slept in the sun porch for two years. 
But, it worked out all right. When we gave a big party we'd move 
the bed out or something so people could use the sun porch too. 
Bob was very good natured about it. He didn't have a real room. 
But, he had a sun porch. 

Then we had a great big living room and a tiny little dining 
room and a small kitchen. And there we lived very happily, seven 
of us. We had seven ration cards for everything. We weren't great 
meat eaters or butter eaters. Why, we always had plenty. 

Ann turned out to be a marvelous cook. She didn't know much 
about it, but she was willing to learn, and she knew more than I. 
I hadn't done much cooking. I had Fanny Farmer's Cookbook, so Ann 
pored over this and I pored over it. She became a wonderful cook. 
Mrs. Adams came and did parties. On her days off Ann would often 
take Philip along with Louise. 


Levenson: How wonderful. 

C. Service: Yes, that was marvelous. 

Then, we fell upon a Mrs. Mason. Now, dear Mrs. Mason — she 
lived down the street. It turned out she'd be glad to have Philip, 
take care of him sometimes. After coming a time or two she said, 
"Why don't I take him home with me? I have a little girl, June. 
June c:an play with him." So, I said, "Fine!" It finally worked 
out that unless Ann took Philip, Mrs. Mason would come and get 
Philip on Thursdays and anytime on Sundays and take him down to 
her house where he would play with June. They were absolutely 
marvelous, both of them, both Ann and Mrs. Mason. 

I can do another half hour. Is that all right with you? 
Levenson: That's fine, yes. 
C. Service: Is it on now? 
Levenson: Yes. 

C. Service: New Zealand was a heavenly spot for us in every way, especially for 
Jack and me; our marriage was healed. In thirteen years of marriage 
we'd been apart for six and a half years. We really started life 
over again, with three children, with a happy post, with Jack number 
two in the office. 

Charge d' Affaires; A Surprise Curtsy 

C. Service: Oh yes, and then Warren got a new post. He went home, and so Jack 
was charge d'affaires for nine months. Now, in the Foreign Service 
this is a very fine thing to happen to a young man. Jack was 
thirty-eight at the time so it was very good for his career, 
especially after all he had been through. It meant that we got 
invited to some special thing at Government House. It meant all 
the things which we ordinarily would not have had for, let's say, 
another five or ten years , and which actually we never did have 
again, because although we did not know it, that was the peak of 
Jack's career, to be charge in New Zealand for nine months. 

Levenson: Did you enjoy it, the Government House and all the trimmings? 

C. Service: I did. I enjoyed it very much because it was all novel to me. 
Also, it was like living in an English novel, that part. 


C. Service: The Government House people were very pleasant. They were very 
friendly. The governor-general was Sir Bernard Freyberg who had 
been a great hero in the First World War. He was a native New 
Zealander but had lived in England. He married a wealthy woman, 
a widow. They were very friendly and easy. She had the where 
withal to do special things; they could spend more money at 
Government House than they were allotted by the government. So, 
their parties were always very elegant and so on. 

All the embassy people were invited to dances and receptions. 
But, we were also invited to a dinner for first secretaries, that 
rank. As we were the ranking first secretary, having got there 
before the French and whoever else, I was seated on Sir Bernard's 
right. I enjoyed it. 

Well, when it came time for the ladies to leave the dining 
room, I realized that I was being given a signal by Rosemary Eley, 
who was a lady-in-waiting. Lady Freyberg got up and I got up. The 
rest of the ladies got up. I followed Lady Freyberg out. 

As she got to the far door, she suddenly turned around and 
gave a swooping curtsy to Sir Bernard Freyberg who, of course, 
represented the king. Nobody had told me I was going to have to 
do this. I thought, "Good heavens." It's one thing to curtsy 
hanging onto somebody's hand, but quite another to do it alone. 
When 1 got to the exact same spot, though, I turned around and 
I saw Sir Bernard giving me a look, everybody just staring at 
me. So, I made a curtsy as much as I could and got out without 
falling down. [Laughter] 

Jack and I really laughed about it afterwards. Jack said, 
"I didn't know what you were going to do." I said, "Well, I wish 
somebody had told me." Usually they tell you everything, every 
step you're going to make. You know how these things go. 

Then, when we left New Zealand the Freybergs invited us around 
for lunch en famille. The whole thing was a very pleasant relation 
ship. We didn't see them all that much, but we saw them enough so 
that we knew them. 

The British high commissioner was Sir Patrick Duff, and his 
wife Lady Duff. Her name was Meg. We became very good friends. 
In fact, the whole experience in New Zealand was as pleasant as 
could be. It was a very happy time for us all. 

The new man who came out, after an interim of nine months 
when Jack was charge, was Robert M. Scotten, with his wife, Ann. 
We became great friends, not so much in New Zealand because we 
weren't together all that long, but afterwards. When Jack was 


C. Service: fired Robert Scotten sent him $1000, which we eventually repaid, 
but it took us quite a while to do it. But, that was a very fine 
gesture on his part, because we hadn't been that close. Robert 
Scotten died some years ago, but Ann and we continue close friends. 
Our friendship has grown with the years. We visited her in Spain; 
she us in Berkeley. 

A Crack in the Picture Window; CIA or FBI Snooping? 

C. Service: We had one or two intimations of things to come, although we 

didn't know it. A missionary turned up in New Zealand. Well, he 
was a fake missionary apparently. 

Levenson: In what sense? 

C. Service: Well, he came round the embassy asking all kinds of questions. 
Beverstock finally said, "Look, watch out. This is no real 
missionary. A missionary in New Zealand? Odd. What is he 
doing here? He must be working for the C[entral] Intelligence] 
A[gency] or the FBI or somebody." He disappeared after awhile. 
I don't know whether he was CIA. He asked a lot of questions 
about Jack and maybe about some other people. But, he was 
obviously not what he said he was. I think he was an agent, an 
agent of some description. I don't know. It was very weird. 

Levenson: Did he come to the house? Did you speak to him? 

C. Service: No, but I think he saw Jack. No, he didn't come to see us. That 
was another funny thing. Why didn't he? He didn't come to the 
house. He went to Beverstock's house. Why go to Beverstock 
rather than Jack? The whole way he operated was very strange. 
I have no idea what his name was. 

But, also, in 1947, the Truman Loyalty Security program was 
started. This we read about in the papers and Time magazine, good 
old Time magazine. It just gave us sort of an uneasy feeling. At 
least it gave me an uneasy feeling. . 

I said to Jack, "What do you think of this?" He said he 
didn't think anything of it. He said, "It doesn't mean anything. 
They can have a loyalty security hearing. So what?" You know, 
Jack's feeling was, "It doesn't affect us in any way. I've been 
cleared again and again." Or not again and again at that time. 
He said, "I've been cleared. The Amerasia case is over. They've 
investigated it." I think there had been another investigation of 
it in the spring of 1946. 


C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 

Anyway, we were expecting a transfer. Two years in Wellington 
was about the usual length of time. In the fall of 1948 we were 
expecting a transfer. It finally came and Jack was to come back 
to Washington and be on one of the promotion boards. This too was 
a very good thing for Jack. 

And Jack was promoted to class II. They reorganized the 
Foreign Service in here somewhere. Jack had been class IV, double 
promotion [1945]. Then, instead of eight classes — which it is 
again — they had condensed it to six classes. All the people in 
class IV were made class III. While we were in New Zealand he 
was promoted to class II. He was at that time, I think, thirty- 
eight, thirty-nine, extremely young. 

The youngest in the State Department, I think. 

I think he was. 
in class II. 

I think he was the youngest one at that time 

This was the last promotion Jack was ever to get, but of 
course he didn't know that either. Everything, though, seemed to 
be fine. When he was appointed to one of the selection boards, 
which is always an honor, we thought this was great. Everything, 
you know, was over. It was over. Nobody would be attacking us 
or be after us. Hurley had resigned. Jack was no longer connected 
with China at this time. 



Washington and Postings to India 

C. Service: So, back we went to Washington. We got there in January, 1949. 
I went east to be with Jack. We left the children in Berkeley. 
We came back and got them in the early summer. We came back to 
Washington, rented a house, and on October 1, 1949, the People's 
Republic of China was announced in Peking by Chairman Mao standing 
on T'ien An Men. 

This caused people to start saying, "Who lost China?" I don't 
mean the general public was interested in this at once, but I 
believe that Representative Walter Judd got up and made a dreadful 
speech in Congress attacking Jack, John Davies, John Carter Vincent, 
Edmund Clubb, and so on. 

I'm not sure what Jack was doing in Washington at this point. 
The selection board was long since over. I really do not remember 
exactly what his job was. 

But, the department suddenly decided to get Jack out of 
Washington again. Where would we go? How about India? This was 
decided sometime after October 1. In January we were given orders 
to go to India, January, 1950. We would leave Washington in 
February. We would sail from the West Coast in March. This was 
how it was worked out. We would go to India. 

Jack would be consul-general in Calcutta. But, the department 
couldn't quite make him consul-general because that would need 
Congressional approval. Even though he'd be the chief officer, 
as they called it, he was only to have the rank of consul. They 
wouldn'u try to push this through the Senate right now. 

Also, at this time the Alger Hiss case had been decided. 
It had been decided in January, 1950. 


Levenson: Right. 

C. Service: This caused such a sensation throughout the country that at this 
point everybody was willing to believe almost anything, that the 
country was simply crawling with Communists, subversives, and 

Senator [William F. ] Knowland made a speech. Jack went to 
see him. He was told by the State Department to go see him. 
This, I think, was in the Kahn book.* Anyway, Jack went to see 
him arid have a talk with him. He never said a word about Jack 

But, [Senator Joseph] McCarthy's speech in Wheeling, West 
Virginia, was given when, February 9, sometime in there, early 
February, 1950. We had already gotten to California. When this 
speech hit the headlines Jack called up the State Department 
because McCarthy had a list, he said. Nobody quite knew how 
many. There were different numbers. There were no names, but 
each number was described. 

None of these descriptions applied to Jack whatsoever. So, 
when Jack called the State Department and said, "What shall I 
do? Shall I go on to India or come back to Washington?" they 
said, "Go on, because you're not one of McCarthy's numbers." 

We spent a month here in Berkeley. Nothing more happened. 
McCarthy was making speeches. He made another in Nevada. But, 
they never seemed to pinpoint Jack or anything like that, or were 
against Jack, just rather general, you know, "The State Department 
is full of Communists." 

Then, we left Berkeley and went to Seattle and we sailed 
from Seattle. My poor father was beginning to fail. He felt 
terrible through all this. Wheeling was his home town. That's 
another thing that bothered him. He had been born and raised in 
Wheeling, and McCarthy made his first big speech in Wheeling. 

We went to Seattle and we sailed on an American export line 
ship, another freighter. We were going to Madras. I think we 
sailed on March 11, [1950]. We went the northern passage. As 
we were going to Tokyo, we sailed very far north, toward the 
Aleutians, and had very bad weather. It was an eight day voyage. 

E.J. Kahn, Jr. The China Hands: America's Foreign Service 
Officers and What Befell Them, Viking Press, 1975. See also 
Caroline's letter to her mother, January 14, 1950, Appendix 2. 


C. Service: I had a terrible toothache and I had been taking penicillin. 

It brought me out in hives. The boat was jumping about. There 
was nothing wrong with the trip exactly, except it was one of 
these trips that you'll be glad when it's over. 

McCarthy Makes Frontal Attack on Service 

C. Service: One night the radio operator came down and he said, "Say, they're 
talking about a guy named Service on the radio . Is it you by any 
chance?" Jack said, "Why, I don't know. What are they saying?" 
Then the operator said, "McCarthy was making a speech about 
Service — that he had undermined the State Department, he had lost 
China, and that he was a Communist." I don't know if he said 
those words or not, but the implication was all there. 

So, Jack went up and listened. Apparently, the radio operator 
got the news every so often when he wasn't listening to things 
concerning the ship. So, when he, the operator, knew the news was 
coming on, Jack went up to listen. 

Also, the radio operator was in contact with a ham operator 
in Los Angeles. This ham operator had been in China and had known 
Jack or knew about Jack in China. So, he was willing to relay 
anything that he heard at other times when our "Sparks" was busy 
with his regular work. "Sparks" could get in touch with this 
ham operator and he got a lot more information this way. 

Well, I think the next day we got a radio to the ship from 
the State Department saying, "Come back," to Jack. "At Tokyo, 
come back to Washington." But, in this telegram which was quite 
long it gave an option about the family. It said the family 
could either stay in Tokyo, come back to Washington, or go on to 

"Jack Would be in India before I Got There" 

Levenson: You. speak of it now in a very matter of fact way, but when you got 
the radio news and then the subsequent cable on your way to Tokyo, 
were you apprehensive? 

C. Service: I was horrified. I couldn't see Jack going through this again. 
But, I really thought Jack would get to Delhi before we did. 
I thougnt he'd go back, they would ask him some questions, he 
might even have some hearings before — I did not realize how 


C. Service: bad things were going to be. It wasn't until Jack had the whole 
year there and I got back later and found out about what they 
were doing to Edmund Clubb and others, that I found out endless 
people were under the harrow. It wasn't only Jack anymore. And 
not only the State Department, the whole government was now being 
put through the ringer. 

Levenson: And the universities. 

C. Service: And the universities, right, and people in the U[nited] N[ations]. 

Levenson: And the writers and actors in Hollywood and on the stage. 

C. Service: Right, but all this was for the future. At the time Jack was 
called back, none of us could foresee anything like this. At 
least, let us say, that I couldn't. I did not know how all 
pervasive this was going to become, that the American public was 
going to be just terrorized, or terrified. I'm not trying to 
equate this with places like Russia because it was not. But, 
people were scared and they were scared to say anything. People 
did finally — I think a lot of people thought, "My word, there 
must have been subversives all over the place. There must have 
been Communists every place or these things couldn't have happened 
to us." We were totally unprepared to admit to ourselves that 
everything in the world couldn't be just the way we wanted it. 

Why did we "lose China"? China, we'd been so good to China. 
We'd done so many things for China. All the missionaries loved 
China. How could China turn on us like this? We must have done 
something awful. How could the Russians do what they were doing 
and we couldn't save the people in Eastern Europe? So, there 
must be something wrong at home. 

Also, a lot of people had never really agreed with the fact 
that Russia should be an ally of ours during the war. There was 
much of this feeling. Some of the atmosphere during all of this 
century has been — isolationist. There's been a good deal of that 
in this country, right back to the First World War. 

Levenson: Oh, sure. 

C. Service: We always say it can never happen again, but I'm never quite so 

sure of that. I try to think this kind of thing could not happen 
again because we have become much more world conscious. We now 
see that the world is not our oyster, that everybody is not going 
to do what Americans want them to do, just because we're Americans. 
We still have a great many people in the world who do admire us and 
like us. I would not believe for a minute they don't. But, they 
still want to do things their own way. Well, my little speech 
for the day. 


C. Service: To go back to your question. How did I feel? I felt Jack would 
get to India soon. I hated seeing him go home again, but 1 did 
not feel that there was an impending doom, no. I think that's 
one of the reasons I wanted to go on to India. 1 thought if I 
had gone back that it might have seemed that I would feel that 
things were not going to go well. And I never really felt that 
way. It was not till I came back from India that I began to 
feel great forebodings of ominous fate hanging over our heads. 
It was not till then. Not while I was in India either, because 
I was cushioned. I was protected. I had a very interesting 
time in India. So, it was after that. 

The Family Goes to New Delhi 

C. Service: Well, Jack and I talked it over and we decided that the children 
and I would go to India because we felt Jack would be in India 
before we sot there. He would fly home, see the State Department, 
and fly back, fly to India. Our furniture was going to India. 
Our car was going to India. The children were in high school then, 
the two older ones. They had been out of school for two months. 
They naeded to go to school. They would go to school in India. 
I would send them up to Mussoorie to the Woodstock School in 
Mussoorie which went all through the summer. They would make 
up the time. It was just the logical thing to do, go on to India. 
I didn't want to go to back to Washington. We had no house, no 
anything. I certainly didn't want to stay in Japan where I didn't 
know anybody. 

So, when we got to Tokyo, when we got to Yokohama, somebody 
was there from the embassy, the press was there, and so on. They 
had a plane ticket for Jack to leave right that night. They put 
me up in the Imperial Hotel while the ship was in port, the only 
time I ever stayed in the Imperial. Jack went back to Washington. 
The children and I stayed in the Imperial Hotel three or four 
days while the freighter was loading. 

We got back on the ship. We went down to Manila, we went to 
Cebu, we went to Ilo-ilo, places I never expected to go. Very 
strange the places you end up on these freighters, when you think 
about it. 

Then, we landed in Madras. The consul and his wife met us. 
What was his name? I should really know. Her name was Martha. 
Streeper, Bob Streeper. They were very nice to us. They got us 


C. Service: a hotel room. It must have been a great burden to them to have 
us and all our trunks and so on. There we were in Madras and 
had to get to Delhi. They got us a plane ticket about four days 
later What they had hoped was that the embassy would send the 
embassy plane down for us, but the embassy did not do that. 
There was no reason for them to. 

So , about four days later the children and I flew to Hew 
Delhi on a commercial plane, the three children and I. We lived 
in a house on Ratendone Road. I don't recall the number. We 
lived there six weeks until we could move into the quarters that 
we were to have, also government owned, also on Ratendone Road, 
number fourteen, Ratendone Road. 

Everybody assumed Jack would soon be coming. We got to 
New Delhi April 15, [1950]. Hot! Hot! Hot! It was like the 
hinges of hell. It was before the monsoon and the temperature was 
over 100°, well over 100°, every day, dry burning heat such as 
India has . 

What can I say about India? People who like China are not 
supposed to like India. Now, it turned out I liked India very 
much. India was the most colorful place I've ever lived, without 
any doubt the most exotic. It also had the greatest poverty and 
misery I'd ever seen. But, I had already gone through that in 
China. When I went to Yunnan that was probably the biggest 
cultural shock, my first year in China. When people would come 
to India who'd never been in that part of the world before, any 
part of the Orient, they had the same feeling that I had first 
in China. Well, you get over that. I didn't have to make this 
adjustment in India. 

I was in a very strange position. I had no official position 
whatsoever. But, pretty soon people began inviting me to all the 
things because there I was. I was a lone woman without a husband, 
part of the American embassy, but not officially part of it. 
Mr. [Loy Wesley] Henderson, who was our ambassador, was so good to 
me. He was wonderful to me. When it became obvious later on in 
the year, that Jack was not coming, he let me stay in "my" house. 

It was a great big bungalow sitting in about an acre of garden. 
It was, I suppose, built for some British official originally 
because it was in New Delhi. All of New Delhi was built for the 

I got there in 1950. This was three years after partition 

and there was still a great deal of unease. There were still 
hundreds of thousands of refugees who had not been resettled. 

There was still a great deal of bad feeling between Moslems and 

Hindus, between Pakistan and India. Things were calming down, but 

you had a feeling there might be an explosion. There wasn't while 
I was there. 


C. Service: Nevertheless, there were some things you didn't do. For instance, 
I took over the house from Peggy and Jeff Parsons. He later 
became ambassador to Sweden. He was the political counselor, and 
Jack was going to be the political counselor. I had six servants, 
three of whom were Christians. They had Christian names: John, 
Daniel, and Lawrence. Then, I had three other servants who were 
Hindu? . The Deimels, Henry and Ruth Deimel who were in the embassy, 
who lived on one side of me, had all Moslem servants. Now, their 
Moslem servants would not cook pork. My Christian servants would 
cook anything. Since I had a Christian cook, I could even have 
beef, but how he got the beef I never knew and I never asked. 
Beef was served in the big hotels to tourists. But, you did not 
talk about how you got beef in India. There were all sorts of 
little things of that description that you could do, but which 
were not openly referred to. 

Levenson: What about liquor? 

C. Service: Liquor, we could get that all ex-bond out of Calcutta or wherever 
we got it. We could get it out of a warehouse. Now, some of the 
Indians drank and served liquor. Some of them didn't, but the 
ones who were used to foreigners and the ones who'd been to England, 
the ones I knew — did. The Delhi Gymkhana Club was now open to 
Indians. Doesn't it seem strange that it had not been so before? 
It had always been an English club. But, the Delhi Gymkhana Club 
now had Indian members. I did not have a membership because, well, 
I was waiting for Jack, but my friends took me. But, finally I 
stayed so long I got a membership of my own. They had memberships 
for women. I could go swimming there, and, of course, there were 
Indians, foreigners of all descriptions. It was an international 

Woodstock School 

C. Service: The children, Ginny and Bob, were sent to Woodstock School in 

Mussoorie, a hill station, about 170 miles northeast of New Delhi, 
at about seven thousand feet altitude. The school had been 
started about a hundred years earlier by missionaries and people 
who did not want to send their children back to England. Now, 
about half the pupils were Indian and about half were foreigners. 
It was supported to a large extent by the state of Uttar Pradesh. 
We, of course, paid board and room and tuition for our children. 
I think there was still some support from various missions to 
the school. But, it was an international school. 

Ginny was fifteen. She was fourteen when she went up there 
and Bob was thirteen. They had a happy time. They liked it. 
They made very good friends. They were there a year and a half. 
I left in a year, but I left them out there. 


C. Service: And I was very glad they were there, because for one thing it was 
a good school. They learned things. They made friends. And 
they were cut off from all the flak from home. 

Indira Gandhi, Fellow Parent and Birdwatcher 

Levenson: So, were you alone? 

C. Service: No. 1 had Philip and Philip was five years old. Philip went to 
a little kindergarten school run by a Norwegian woman, I think, 
who was married to an Indian. Her name was Mrs. Maitra. At this 
same school were both of Mrs. Gandhi's boys. 

Levenson: Indira Gandhi's boys? 

C. Service: Yes, both of her boys went to this school. One, I think, was a 
year older than Philip. The other was a year younger, San jay. 
It is Sanjay who has now become a great power. When one of them 
had a birthday party, all the children were invited. We all 
went to where Nehru lived, the Prime Minister's home. Nehru was 
there, and of course Mrs. Gandhi was there. The children all sat 
at a great long table and had an elegant birthday party. After 
wards a snake charmer came in to entertain them. A snake charmer 
was a very good thing to have! So, I did meet Mrs. Gandhi and I 
did meet Nehru. I met him more than once because I was included 
in the August 15, Independence Day celebrations and he was there. 

Mrs. Gandhi also belonged to the Delhi Birdwatching Society. 
Now, I joined the Delhi Birdwatching Society because I'd become 
interested in birds during the war here at home. The Englishman 
who ran it was the foremost Quaker in India. I suppose there 
were about thirty members of the Delhi Birdwatching Society, and 
it was exactly like something, well, out of an English novel. 

Levenson: How so? 

C. Service: We all went out to the Delhi dump or some place like that. The 
Delhi dump had a lot of storks on it. It was north of the city. 
But, there were other birds. Oh, the bird life! The bird life 
in India was absolutely terrific. The birds were so magnificent 
and so beautiful and so many of them, birds I'd never heard of 
before. I can't even remember their names now. 

But, Mrs. Gandhi would come out in one of the government 
cars, and everybody brought thermoses and we all had tea. [Laughter] 
It was a real English birdwatching outfit. She was extremely 
pleasant and agreeable. I remember her very well. I liked her. 


Levens on : 

C. Service: 
C. Service; 

C. Service; 


Are you surprised at the way 
the p as t few ye ars ? 

Yes, I am. I really am. 


government had developed 


How would you sum up your impression of her at that time, in 1950? 

In 1950 she was the Prime Minister's hostess. She was an attrac 
tive young woman. Obviously, she had a lot of political clout 
even then, but it wasn't evident. How old could she have been 
then, in her early thirties? Yes, her early thirties. She was 
pleas&nt and affable. You never had a feeling you were being 
kept off. She didn't bring any guards with her. She brought a 
chauffeur. I never had a feeling that there were a lot of people 
around taking care of her, but I just was interested in seeing 
her. I was very pleased to see her and very pleased to meet her. 

Before I left India — and I wish I'd done it — I thought I 
would go round and call on her. But, there was no reason to do 
so. I did sign the book when I arrived. But, when I left I 
didn't call; I really didn't know her well enough. I think 
probably it would have been an intrusion. But, I was sorry I 
didn't afterwards because of Philip's going to school with her 
sons, and because she had been very pleasant to me. Anyway, 
that's simply an aside about Indira Gandhi. 

Was she a well-informed birdwatcher? 

Yes. Yes, she really was. She came because she was interested 
in birds. There would have been no other reason for her to 
come, because the people who were connected with the Birdwatching 
Society were a very mixed bag of English business people and the 
Quaker and a few Indians who were interested, just people who 
did it because they liked it. I think I was the only American. 
We'd go stumbling through the underbrush in the woods near Delhi. 
I never thought we were going to see a snake. It was just people 
really who were very keen on the Indian birds. 

We had two peahens who came once and sat in one of our trees. 
Peacocks were common birds. But, there were birds called rollers, 
and there were bulbuls — I must look up their names. There were 
green bee-eaters and a bird called a barbet, birds I'd never 
heard of. Of course, hoopoes you get in Europe. There were 
hoopoes around. There were the babblers and — Well, I'll look 
them up in my Indian bird book. Phalanxes of parakeets would 
zoom over our house at dusk, flying to the nearby Lodi Gardens. 

Was it a rather strenuous affair? 
through murky underbrush? 

Did you walk long distances 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 
C. Service: 

No. No, we walked rather short distances and rather leisurely. 
But, we did see things, marvelous kingfishers. 

Did you have to get up early in the morning? 
No, we did it late in the afternoon. 
How civilized! 

Nobody got up early in the morning. [Laughter] We did it late 
in the afternoon. Since Delhi is about 23° latitude north, the 
evenings came rather early. So, we didn't have to stay up late. 
We went out in the late afternoon. We saw a lot of bird activity. 

More about India 

C. Service: The Indian people, I think, are probably the handsomest race in 

the world. I don't think I've ever seen so many really beautiful 
women and handsome men in every stratum of society, from sweepers 
right on up to the top; sweeper women. 

And I want to say one thing more about India which has 
nothing to do at all with this, except that I did find India 
to be a most exotic and interesting country, as I mentioned. 
One day when I was driving to Mussoorie, going through a small 
town, there was a stark naked man walking along, a holy man. 
All he had on was the Hindu cord [gesturing at chest level 
describing a cord tied around the body] which high caste Brahmans 
wear. That was the sole thing he had on. 

On the same street walking either before him or behind were 
two women in burkas, completely clothed from top to toe, not a 
sign of them showing — even their eyes were looking through little 
grillworks . And nobody was paying any attention to any of these 
things, neither the stark naked man nor the two women completely 
hidden under their burkas. 

I thought to myself, "Only in India could you have such a 
contrast, such a thing, and nobody pay any attention to it." 
I was quite fascinated by it. Anyway, that's just one small 
thing which gives a flavor of what life in India was like then. 

I had Americans living on one side of me, but on my other side 
of the house we had an Indian couple named Dr. and Mrs. Bery. Prem 
was, without a doubt, one of the most beautiful women I've ever 
seen. Her husband was a dentist. I went to him. His name was 
Dr. N.N. Bery, but everybody called him Enos , like Enos salts. 


C. Service: Why, I do not know. I became great friends with the Berys. Prem 
helped me out often. When I needed information she could tell me 
what to do or where to go, and so on. The Berys ate beef, oddly 
enough. I asked her about it once. She said, oh well, Hindus 
could really do almost anything. 

The Hindu religion is a very strange religion to my Western 
mind. In fact, to me, it holds India back. I do not understand 
religions like Hinduism. They turn me off. But Hinduism has 
probably worked out better than any other system of religion to 
keep people quiet by promising them better future lives. I can't 
think of a better system that anybody has ever worked out — if you 
don't have a good life this time, the next time may be better. 
I disagree with the whole idea, but it certainly seems to me to 
keep people — what should I say? — willing to accept , accept their 
lot. Modern life is changing this to some extent. 

The poverty and the misery of India was unbelievable. That 
was twenty-five years ago. Things may have improved. I think 
things are better. 

Cows, cows walking around everywhere. I said, "Who owns 
these cows?" I could ask Prem anything. Well, nobody quite knew 
who owned the cows. I never got an answer to that question, who 
owns the cows that just meander around the streets, eating 
vegetables off stalls, or eating flowers, or eating whatever, 
nobody stopping them. But, cows do add to the economy of India 
because of the dung they give which is used not only for fuel 
but for plaster on village houses. The cows give a little bit 
of milk. Brahman cattle are quite beautiful animals. 

Letters to Lisa Green in Stockholm 

C. Service: Jack was at home. He was having a terrible time. I was insulated 
from that. The English paper in Delhi would now and then carry 
something. Jack did not write very often, but I realized that 
he was going through hell and there was nothing I could do about 

If I'd been home I would have not have been much help to him. 
You've asked me once or twice if I wasn't mad or if I didn't get 
blue or depressed, or what I expected. Up to this time in India 
I had been mostly optimistic. But, in India I began to realize 
things were perhaps not going to go well. I would have been nothing 
but a burden to Jack during this summer. 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 


C. Service: Jack lived with various friends. He lived with Tony and Phyllis 
Freeman for months. I sent most of the mail for him to Lisa and 
Marshall Green. He lived with Jack and Roz Burling. Jack Burling 's 
father was one of Acheson's law partners. And he lived with Ed 
and Ruth Rhetts. 

Jack had gotten Ed [Charles Edward] Rhetts to be his lawyer. 
When he went home he had asked the State Department what he should 
do and they said, "Get a lawyer." Somebody recommended the firm 
of Reilly, Rhetts, and Ruckelshaus, a very conservative firm. 
Gerry Reilly, who is now a judge, had a lot to do with drafting 
the Taft-Hartley Act. 

I'll let Jack tell about his own experiences, except to say 
that it was just lucky for me and I think for him, for all of us, 
that the children and I had the year in India. 

I was writing letters to Lisa [Green]. I don't seem to have 
many. So whether or not she kept them all — But, I have a few 
paragraphs here I'll read from various letters. 

This one, September 19, 1950. 

Levenson: Excuse me, Caroline. If you like we could insert them in the 

C. Service: Yes, but I think I'll read a few of them now anyway. The 

[Marshall] Greens now were on their way to Sweden. I write: 

Have a restful trip. I will be waiting 
impatiently to hear all about your life in Sweden. 
There will surely be lots of people junior to you. 

Apparently Lisa was wondering about this. 

All the embassies now are simply overrun with 
dozens of people called attaches. We even have a 
minerals attache here and a social welfare attache, 
plus ten people who are just called attaches. [Chuckle} 
All of them are attaches. All of them are smack in 
the middle of the diplomatic list. Here it all depends 
on the salary. If the building man gets more money 
than you do 3 he is ahead of you on the list. At 
least that is the way things are in Delhi. They 
may be different in Sweden. 

No doubt some of the attaches were CIA. 


C. Service: J wonder how much longer I aha.ll have to wait 

for Jack. The moet encouraging thing is he has been 
assigned as counselor to Nepal too. So, he must be 
coming sometime. 

Now, this was September, [1950], and I'd already been In India 
since April, [1950]. 

Mr. Justice Douglas is in town. The Steeres 
had a cocktail and dinner for him on the spur of 
the moment last night and asked me. A very pleasant 
evening. He is a rough hewn type in looks, not so 
ir. actions. The only solace I have found to being 
here alone is that I am often asked to fill in at 
interesting dinners. This is one place where there 
is an excess of men and a single woman is in demand 

Even though Jack does not say much, I don't 
see how he could have managed in Washington these 
past months without you, and I'm sure he knows it. 
Little did I think he would still be in Washington 
after you left. When do you think he'll be getting 
out here? After all, even the FBI can't go on 
forever, or can they? 

Now that you are no longer in Washington I 
can write about Max Bishop. Of course, you must 
know by now that he was one of the informers [to the 
FBI], the one in Japan, and when Jack asked him to 
appear before the loyalty board to testify against 
him, if he wanted, he wouldn 't appear. 

Max Bishop refused to appear. Jack tried to get him to come, but 
Max knew he'd be cross-questioned and he would not come. 

I've known something of this since New Zealand days, which 
is why I was never enthusiastic about Max Bishop. 

Levenson: Does it appear anywhere else that Jack asked Max Bishop to testify? 

C. Service: I think not at the time, but I think it appears in the hearings,* 
sure, that were made public. 

*State Department Employee Loyalty Investigation Hearings Before 
a Subcommittee of the Committee on Foreign Relations, United States 
Senate, Eighty-first Congress. (Tydings Committee). 


C. Service: Then, on October 20, I had been up to Mussoorie, apparently, to 
see the children. This letter Is dated October 20, 1950, from 
New Delhi, 

It was perfect at Mussoorie, the air clear 
and sparkling after the rains, and the Himalayas 
standing out clear and cold against the horizon. 

On the ninth, I was casually glancing through 
the paper when my eye caught an item about Jack's 
clearance. I'd been waiting for it so long I could 
hardly take it in when I saw it. 

This was an Indian English paper, of course. 

You can imagine the state I was in. The 
next day Philip and I drove back to Delhi where 
I got a long cable from Jack saying it would take 
three or four weeks for the deputy of the secretary 
of state to go over the board's finding and that he 
was going to California to see our families. 

Just before he left Washington to drive west 
in Helen's car he wrote me a most loving letter 
telling me he hoped he might be out in November 
as he does not expect to have to stay around 
Washington while the president's review board goes 
over things, but even if he does he should be here 
by Christmas, and I really think he'll be here 
before Thanksgiving. That is the day the children 
come home from school and is also my birthday, so 
if Jack is here nothing more could be asked. 

In any case, I feel as though the end of these 
j weary months is in sight, and I'm very, very 
proud of my husband. Heaven only knows what the 
future will hold for us as regards his career, but 
I think he has proved himself during this terrible 

It's obvious Jack did not get out. There were more hearings after 
that, but anyway, at this point I had great hopes. On December 10, 
I wrote: 

Dearest Lisa, 

. ..About a week ago I had a cable from Jack 
saying that [Carlisle H. ] Humelsine had finally 
got around to finishing the "file" and his decision 
was favorable, etc. etc. But, instead of sending 
Jack right off to India, as they would do if they 
had any guts, (because no matter what the [State] 


C. Service: Department does, its detractors are going to be 
screaming for blood, and a weak attitude ie not 
going to help them one little bit) they have been 
thinking about keeping Jack around Washington 
until after the new Congress meets to see if 
there are going to be any new investigations. 
Did you ever hear of anything more stupid or 
more of an invitation to have new investigations? 

I took the cable straight to the ambassador, 
and he immediately drafted a cable to the department 
saying he wants Jack and has held the post open for 
him all these months, etc. etc. etc. He could 
hardly have made it any stronger. He has been 
absolutely wonderful to me the whole time I have 
been here, and I shall never forget his kindness. 

(It is now December II, by the way, as I had 
callers yesterday morning.) Early Saturday morning 
I had a call from the embassy saying there was a 
cable in for me. I asked them to send it right 
out and this is what it said: "Press informed 
assignment cancelled. No orders until new post 
decided. May be some delay. Am writing. Thank 
the ambassador. Patience. Love. Jack. " 

I leaped out of bed and went straight to the 
ambassador and showed him the telegram. He was 
absolutely disgusted. I would like to tell you 
that the department has never had the courtesy 
to answer the ambassador's telegram or ever given 
him any information about Jack during all the time 
I have been here. Every bit of his information 
has come through me or the news bulletins. Even 
now he has not been notified officially that Jack 
is not coming. What a system. 

To say that I am devastated is putting it 
mildly. I feel so sorry for Jack I hardly know 
what to do. First Calcutta, and now Delhi. We 
shall probably end up as head of a one-man consulate 
in central America or Equatorial Africa. And although 
I still haven't said so to Jack, I'm all for resigning 
as soon as the president 's board gets through with 
this unless Jack gets a halfway decent post. 

Well, that goes on. Maybe you would like to xerox that. If 
there's something after it's xeroxed that I don't want in, I can 
have it cut out. Can't I? 

Dearest Lisa: -• I ve beeri, thinking back- 'over the ''year-: and what" 

able and incredible ''one it has been.: And I've 

Xnas-we had in Washington and coning; to your house on 

ing chaniplfgne oip', and then. spending New. Year's Eve/(-at bur hbusepaiid ; '; 

having some nore champagne . that, yoti brought over.-; .<!. wasnlt.:.Tery^hi^f ^ 

about being hustled out of 'Washington the way we were being' and^'I;.' ha jt 

the idea . of 'packing . upland yselling:! ou1T ice-box and stove and.' was'Hiri^^ 

machine (w^.ll I ever have -any. others ?U.) , • and: in f act i;7ras not ^ 

about anytMng. we: had; : to^do^It:i'is Justus well I; i 

vrftiat" lay^ahead of •'oiSoi^Much'tas it lias been good ,t 

of the r country "P^.have:;not/begun-.t6: reconcile myself^to ; havirig' 

separatad^from Jack -duririgi-thisC trying time*?;? I ",had an 


f?a iint*j T 

bdecided .aboutfaere; he:- i 
end,pi: r . Janaary ' 

~^i Since 



• ••• 

taken, three -_months 
As things /are now 


rlay somehow. ' 

so>* completely bleak-!, 

packing Jiap (so that 

f soorf' be a year since /;T have 

bear it : " any longer.:^] 
seem to go right ongetting 
I aia ncrar going to: try £0 relax a little .Tand 

nd • seeytha-bi the^ch^ldren en joy^^Ttoo. — Last, weekrcb^^; 
noonday' arid •; Tuesday "Gin aad£Bob» : ancfe I : w en t" to Agra*^ The - Warwick • Perkins - 
vrere here—he "is counselor 4r^ara6hi~s6— the off ice" gave us a station' .'^ 
wagon to go *in^wh:-ch saved- iiiy^car;;. ( -'Agra is. magnificent-— not; like I^ek^ig '"'^ 
which Is -the grandest -piace^T'have 'ever seen-^-but' tHe name ,Imperiai~lgra . ^, 
truly % -apr lies' to it»'"Be > saw'the Taj 'three tines, : .atLsuriget, "in .the-.moo.n— . -<. 
light,-' and in' the -n!orning/. the -time - 1 'liked :it besti." '.We went. ali^tnruT ~?" 
Mae lied- *ort- ^T»hich- ; was : started .1^%bar and. added J to.. by Jahangirl and- x ShahL'. 5 
ehan 5 who* also ••bjitl^^tha'.-Ta'j^^ted we 'yisited'.ah jexquisite^ little. l£bjnbLtp' 
accixjssj-the'yuima ri^^^dte" the jloveliest; siaajLi building "I .have Jse'eii,*-^ 
On i 'Tuesday? ..mbmirig we -drove* 23?'i£-les~~but of "Agra tJ- : Fa2iSiipur Sikri'^Va "city i> 
which /has/ -beeii- deserted^ far aino"st- UOO^ years • ' v 5^ was' "built^by.^Akba:^ >1*^ --^.3 
and lived'cwv '•fbr^aboti^ ^^'yiearsv'.'&y 1 ; 1hat time "the "water supply r_ah^ut»: ^ : 
^z=» M ^ stands; today ialisost in%ct^andrIooks'"3usV^a3^it 'o^d'fThen^'^ 

his courtx vrallced ;: out'' r of/ 7 i <! t . sb'^ahy ^years' ago;:" and; it^^es^aLaos'if ;;jib > T;^/' 

aiiS-conditioning' thtf sumners'^are " .quite "^ | 
: ; " " '^ 

beaxable and the winters" are just ,_"£• '.li-tie ; colder 'thah; a 
^ summer .v/i-thout^ the-wind j . ; And-'there is so nuch hare off interest to "see.*-. 
I cannot help but-be fascinated and- exasperated _by\ai^"^see : 'arpund i »o J '"- 

_T^J_": A • •* ..'..•_» A .- . «.*-' i _J»T-"'-%^*^ *"-"V '^» -»-'•**••.•.' •**» »^ - 



and the ; passing scenV-is alway^cpiprful^'^AnbthertViy^^ 

f->od American schools. • Woodstock 'near here'arid 'another; in~"tfce"souiii- of'V'^ 

India. :> The * " " '*' - 

alinost nothing at all about their entertainment any more. They, play, 
play badminton, go bicycling, go on picnics, and sit arouid 

. \ 

- : irn . j\ T 7 "*^ ~~^ o-^ 



.. ..wv> , „.— -r:r r — .-- -Jw'W'stfpinach 'is 'definitely churning arovrd 
rr* ^-j-i. - * • '•? Ches-!c M 1 have ™ fever so nothing serious can be \7rong. -^ 
*l~did- have -the -rum -punch party and it went 1 off very '.wen, altho I cr. 
^.f n .°.} lse ',- at tein S both -a host and hostess. ''. /The day was pleasant aiic: > 

^/anyone^tt lfr s ?'l£ ^ *£?££?* ^i 

^ a ^^j^,zvl£ttoari^4 / 1ra^lt^ true '"that I fT 
„- .» .--.*--,-*,.' hese f»i- past 'fevsr "days have been hectic, 
•now ^things- are 'quieting doro- ti 11" Kef. Years.' ' After : that' I itcoina 
CDflNtGFte . cetttnt? -*n i -Ur -/,M 4 » T «^iOTis 'paid'" off 'and ;then ' I hope ' 

. TT Is'. that ^ McCarthy of soneone of 

>r .more iJivesti^ations^lTt.'doesri't '•« 

n -the ;state it is irf.-thsiti'th.ey : TTO.uld;-wast'e^ tit 
is going jto' pow,, but I "hardly Ippw'iSiat' to expect anyacre 
^have-to stay home ^ longer ;-- 1 ?3^'Tre;iriii-'^/'rlght'i 1 oa8; " I ' -^ 
-Anything to be , ^th ; liim./';r like Clarissa, ^ -'but. not Clara. "*",- 
not -to look very ' pregnant^ I: looked colossal. '££ ter the 
. understand Pa^'Dn-trte^'^/eacpecting ^ her.fourthl 

sien^ J'hil. life", put" some on 'the '" 

. i 



Levenson: Absolutely. 

C. Service: When I thought Jack was coming out I decided I was going to have 
a party, because although I'd entertained people for luncheon and 
people had entertained me a great deal, I thought I'm going to ask 
everybody in the American embassy to a Christmas morning rum punch 
party, about 11:00 o'clock, 12:00 o'clock, maybe 1:00 o'clock in 
the afternoon. 

So, I did. I made the plans and it was going to be out in 
the garden. Even when I knew Jack wasn't coming I still decided 
to have the party. I'm very glad I did. I asked every American 
that I knew, both in the embassy and living in Delhi. Everybody 
came except those that were out of town. The children were home 
and we had a nice Christmas. 

Caroline's Father Dies 

C . Service : 

C. Service: 

I finally left India. Jack's orders were cancelled. It was 
obvious that he was not coming out. Then, I had nothing I could 
do except wait until the government issued orders for me to come 

In the meantime my poor family was quite desperate, because 
they really didn't know how things were going on. My father — I 
found this out later — offered to pay Jack's way out to India and 
back to spend Christmas, if the department would let him leave 
the country, but they would not. 

They would not let Jack leave? 

No. No. They would not let Jack leave, 
never knew about this till later. 

So, that was out. I 

The children came down from Mussoorie on November 30, and 
they didn't have to go back till early March. Although India is 
in the northern hemisphere, the school year was as though they 
were in the southern hemisphere, because it was so hot in the 
plains in the summer that the children went to school all summer. 
They came down from the mountains where it was snowing in the 
winter and had their vacation in the winter time. 

They had lots of friends in New Delhi who came down from 
school with them. Ginny was fifteen. Bob was just going to turn 


C. Service: On March 3, [1951], my father died. I did not know that until I 
got the cable the next morning. I was devastated. My father had 
always been there. 

My father had written me a letter after we left Berkeley, on 
March 6, 1950. I would like this put in.* That was just after we 
left to go to India, and I got it in Seattle before 1 sailed. I 
had it with me. When Father died, of course, I got it out and 
read it. His funeral was exactly a year after the date on the 
letter. He died on March 3, and his funeral was March 6, 1951. 

Jack flew out to California to go to the funeral. I can't 
tell you how I appreciated that, because poor Jack didn't know 
what was going to happen to him or what the next thing was going 
to be. 

I'll give you this letter. I won't read it now, but I'll 
give you that. You can keep that if you want. 

Levenson: Thank you very much. 

C. Service: My father says in it — my poor father, not knowing that I really 
don't believe in God; but my father was a lovingly religious 
person — he says, "We will meet in the great 'Beyond,' and all I 
ask is [for you] to remember your God and your parents as you 
have — and abide in much prayer." Well, for my father this was 
important. I couldn't change my beliefs for his sake — no. But, 
this has been a most wonderful letter to me. It has influenced 
my life — the love expressed in it. 

At last it came time for me to go home. So, what to do? 
I decided that I would leave Ginny and Bob in India because there 
was no use breaking up — The school year began in March, early 
March. They were still in Delhi when my father died, but they 
went right back to Mussoorie after that. Then, the first term 
went until July. So, I thought, "Well, I will leave them out here, 
in Mussoorie, and then they can come home by themselves," which 
they finally did. 

I must mention here that other neighbors, Colonel and Mrs. 
Edwin Sutherland, were wonderful to the children and me. Flip 
and Ed Sutherland were in Peking when we were — Ed was an army 
language student. In New Delhi he was the U.S. military attache. 
Flip took a great personal interest in Philip which has lasted 
right to the present, and they helped with the older children 
when it came time for them to leave India. 

Two other close friends who were wonderful to me in India 
were Hazel and Henri Sokolove. He was the labor attache. We have 
remained great friends. 

''See following page. 







C. Service: And the Prescott Childs took Ginny and Bob in when they sailed 

home from Bombay. Prescott was the U.S. consul-general in Calcutta. 
They preceded us in Wellington, but we did not meet them until 

Juan and Milena Marin — he was Chilean charge — we had known 
in Shanghai. They were now in New Delhi and were very good to 

Back to Washington via Europe 

C. Service: I'd never been to Europe. At this point I'd never been to Europe. 
So, I decided to tour Italy for two weeks with Philip while wait 
ing for a ship from Naples. But, as it turned out, at the Delhi 
airport Philip pulled a standing barrier over on his arm. His 
whole arm was in great pain and something was wrong with his elbow. 
An Indian doctor put a sling around the arm. But we got on the 
plane. There was nothing else to do. 

We arrived in Rome on Saturday night, the next night, and on 
Sunday there was nothing to be done. But, by Monday morning I 
knew I had to do something about Philip's arm. So, I went around 
to the embassy and I said, "I've got to see a doctor." The embassy 
knew I was there. George Merrell — who had been in Peking with us 
and who was a retired ambassador at this point — was visiting his 
sister in Rome and they met me at the airport and were very helpful 
to me. Also a man from the embassy met me to help me. 

Anyway, the embassy nurse sent me to an Italian hospital. 
I knew not one word of Italian, and the doctor I saw didn't know 
one word of English. We both had a few words of French, but oh, 
so terrible! Anyway, the doctor took an x-ray of Philip's elbow 
and he showed me the x-ray. Even I could see that the thing was 
out of its socket. The doctor pushed me down in a chair, and the 
nurse clapped some ether over Philip's nose, there was a great 
crack, and the elbow was pulled back into its socket. Philip was 
kept in the hospital overnight. Then an English doctor turned up 
who lived in Rome. So, he could interpret. He explained that 
Philip would have to wear a cast for some time. 

So, I decided there was no point in my trying to travel 
around Italy with a child with only one good arm. We were staying 
at a pens lone, and I took Philip out of the hospital with his arm 
in a little cast, open on one side. I could take him sightseeing 
with me, and so we took endless sightseeing tours in Rome. Finally 
one day Philip said to me — he was so tired of being hauled around; 
he was not quite six — he said, "Mother, there are too many marble 
statues in Rome!" [Laughter] 

f-*v-*fc^l i^fc^ -i 

'/£** ytf~**Jf.} 

March 8, 1951 


• , - • 

Jw aw 2 "* ^^7 A 
-«iM* / A.^»'*yfci i 

^ j ^i^x^X;. 


4 ;:ssr!«,-;-s ! -,u;'.s;rh» :•£?:•„ r 


ss: £*:&•»•* afc 

on he snla on April 13 r^? T f!rl!n^!.t u. I 

about Aoril 81 where I hope that J»ck «»licttju. I 

"tllTTtherTaB Phil and Jack and I ^-Mtur* 

room and by the time the Children get home the furniture 
will be the e too. I am hanpy about the decision to Te £!® d 
them fcxK here They are happy and safe in Woodstock, 
missionary atmosphere, excellent American doc -;° r ™;™f- 
cltal friends all around them and friends her* -ni 

to s^ef th£m on their way. Ginny win J*™ **« 8 *> the 
starts home and ahould really have a wonderful time on the 
trip. And Bob too. And I have absolute faith in the two 
of them that they can get on and take care of themselves. 
I am so proud of them and I Just cannot b ear to think 
Jow^thei? llv.s may be affected by all this trouble of 
Jack's. • I thank God for the unsullied ? tm ° 8 P h ? r ^ a * 
Woodstock where there is no discrimination against them. 
I hardly know what to expect a,t home. Also by taking 
only Philip I'll- be able to concentrate on Jack, we ari 
going \o have a whole year of tai Xing to do.- If this 
thing looks as tho it wH 1 never end then we must make 
a decision about Jack's pelting put of the F. s. ana 
finding something else to do. W have both fel tnirc 
we have to fight this thing out But at this joint there 
eeems to be nothing tangible to fight. Nothing we can 
come to grips with. You know Lisa, I never give up 
if I can help it but this summer may be the turning 00} jt 
in our lives. There must be something- we can to 60 
we can live unharraesed and ^foductlv^ llveB I am sorry 
to sound so dreary my d ear, but with the constant Jn 
vestigations staring us In the face again it is 






i IT- npii. , 

be too cheerful, j Have been thinking of all the people' 
I want to go to ta^k to^ when I get home. And I'll be 

glad to have people take a look at me too.— The real 

tragedy in my life .last week was that on Sunday I had a' 
cable that my father died on Saturday. You will knov what 
that meant to ae. He is the person who had the most influence 
on my life and my earliest memories are of him rather than 
of my mother.- 1 knew that. both -of them loved me but father's 
love was always warr. and close and in all these -years I've 
been married he NXXBXKX wrote me a little note or letter each 
week. Yesterday I had one written fxoxx on Feb. 26 Just 5 
days before he died. He talked of seeing me when I came home 
and Liea I'm afraid that I wept my eyes -out. I f <=><=>! that this 
last year of worry shortened his life— another thing I hold 
against McC. But perhaps he has b^en spared more unhar>plness. 
And I know his love will help me no matter what happens^ Now , 

I must think of my mother. L^sa how I wish that your baby 

would be born early and that you could fly down to Rome with 
Marshall so that could hav*» a reunion. I know this sounds 
kair-bralned, but I 8hou ' ld 8 ° love *o s^e you. ' Think about it. 
I'll be here till March 30. Then address me < American " *, 

Bnbassy in Rome. Could you come to Paris if I can pet up there. 
W A could aV stay with P h il. Ha J Much much love to you-' aril 
Marshall and I hope that everything will be expeditlous./^i^/ j 

* "a •' " 

V • ** « ..!••• 

New Delhi, 

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Levenson: Oh, poor fellow. I think he was good to have gone as long as 
that. Don't you? 

C. Service: Well, I couldn't leave him alone. I had to take him. So, there 
we were! Then, we sailed from Naples on the Saturnia, I think, 
and got home towards the end of April, [1951], Jack met us in 
New York. We had been separated another thirteen months. 

Back home to — Well, then I realized things were bad, when 
I got home. I think maybe I should stop there. I'd like to put 
in something more from these letters because from then on things 
really went downhill. 

"That Dreadful Man that Did All Kinds of Things" 

C. Service: I had one experience in the pensione which I've often thought 
about. It was a wryly amusing experience, except embarrassing 
to the other person. There was a very pleasant American woman 
in this place and we always chatted at meals. One day she even 
stayed with Philip. I wanted to go to the Spanish Steps where 
I had seen a little shop. I wanted to get something. I said to 
Philip, "Now, you can play here by yourself for about an hour 
while I go out." He said he would. This was in the little lobby. 
This wotran heard me and she said, "Well, I'm going to be here," — she 
was writing a letter — "and I'll keep an eye on him." So, I thanked 
her very much. Philip promised to be good and off I went. 

When I got back Philip had been very good. She and I had 
never exchanged names. Later either she was leaving or I was 
leaving with Philip. We were saying goodbye. She said, "You 
know, I dou't know your name." I said, "No, I don't know yours 
either." She told me hers which I have completely forgotten. 

Then when I said mine was Service, she looked at me and she 
said, "Oh, it's the same name as that dreadful man that did all 
kinds of things that Senator McCarthy is after," or something 
like that. Anyway, "that dreadful man," she said. I think the 
expression on my face made her stop, and she said, "Oh, you're 
not related to him, are you?" I said, "Well, he's my husband." 

That poor woman. If the floor could have swallowed her she 
would have been happy. I said, "Never mind, my husband's a very 
fine man." 

Then, she looked at me and she said, "I believe you," or 
"I'm sure he is." One of the two. 


Levenson: Was that the first time that you had run into this sort of 

C. Service: That's the first time I'd run into that. There had been some 
other experiences. The night that Jack was put in Jail or the 
day after, [1945] Jane Smyth happened to be calling Mrs. Hurley 
who was going to go out to Chungking. She said, "Oh, the wonderful 
news, that dreadful Mr. Service is in jail," or words to that effect. 
Jane told us this. 

But, this was the first such experience I had. Actually I 
didn't have too many. But, I've never forgotten that, because I 
was pleased when the woman said that she believed me. 

Levenson: That was wonderful. 

C. Service: I thought that was marvelous. I often wondered if she ever 

followed the case long enough to know that Jack was exonerated 
and was reinstated in the State Department. 

Well, now we can turn it off. I can go on later. 

Levenson: Thank you. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 




New Delhi, India, April 21, 1951 

Dear Caroline: 

Thank you for your kind letter of April 6. You 
may be sure that the Embassy community will keep an 
eye on your children until they are ready to return 
to the States. All of us loved having you with us 
during the past twelve months, and our only regret is 
that Jack could not have come also and that you could 
have stayed longer. I hope that in the short period 
of service which remains ahead of me our paths will 
cross again. 

I am confident that in spite of the setbacks 
and discouragements which you and Jack have had, 
opportunities will again present themselves to Jack 
to perform distinguished service for the United States. 

Elise joins in sending regards to you both. 

Sincerely yours. 

Mrs. John S. Service, » 

c/o Foreign Service Mail Room, 
Department of State, 

Washington, D. C. ~£ 

>• -.1 


O </> 
O fn 



[Interview 6: November 17, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

Caroline's Relationship with her Mother 

C. Service: This is a letter to my mother after my return from India, 

May 8, 1951. My father had died by this time. I don't think 
I've done justice to my dear mother in these talks, because we 
really had a very close relationship which I think will appear 
evident as we go on now. 

Dearest Mother: 

This letter should reach you by Friday t Saturday 
at the latest. We are in the flat as I think that I 
wrote you last week and I am beginning to get into 
some sort of routine. But I have been very despondent 
and tired since getting home. Mostly wanting to sleep 
all the time and hardly being able to drag myself 
ai'ound. Some of it may be change of climate but I 
think that most of it is due to the Washington scene 
which is dreadfully depressing. In fact I can just 
hardly pull myself together to get anything done. 

And I hardly know what news to write. Apparently 
the President's new rulling on the Loyalty hearings 
has brought everything to a standstill. No one knows 
exactly what it means and so nothing is going to be 
done until they make up their minds which will be 
sometime after the middle of this month. One of the 
members of Jack's Board will be back from Europe by 
then so they will get down to the new rumors on his 
case again and dispose of those. Then I suppose it 
will go to the President's Board again. But I can 
forsee that all of this is going to take weeks and 


C. Service: weeks -if not months and I really think it can last 

thru the summer and thru the autumn and maybe longer. 
It is literally impossible to find out anything or to 
know if this will ever end. How Jack stands all of 
this I simply can't imagine because it has already 
made me feel completely dead. Jack is determined not 
to resign from the Foreign Service and I think he is 
right. But there does not really seem to be any 
future in it for us and he will just be marking time 
for some years. It seems a dreadful thing to me. We 
hope to go overseas again but I just don't see it 
happening for some time. Anyway there seems to be 
nothing at all that I can do. Some Congressman named 
Busby got up and made a speech in Congress that John 
Stewart Service should be the first man to be fired 
under the President's new directive. So Jack has 
spent the last couple of days writing him a very good 
letter. I hope he reads it. Also I hope he answers 
it but I'm afraid that he won't. The Letter Jack 
wrote to Mrs. Rogers last November was never answered 
altho Jack said that he hoped to meet her and talk 
with her. I guess that there is just no end to 
these attacks. 

Phil is fine and is putting on some weight. 
Ginny and Bob write that they are well and happy. 
I miss them terribly but I am more glad every day 
that I left them at Woodstock. There would be 
nothing for them here and it would be a miserable 
existence for them with no friends, etc. That 
senior year in Oak Park gives me the shudders still 
and I hate to think that Gin may have the same 
experience here. That is the main reason I would 
like to go overseas again so she wouldn 't have to 
be a senior in a new high school. Well there is no 
use worrying about that now. 

This is nothing but a letter of gripes and groans, 
mother and I must really stop. It is also a letter 
for Mothers' Day to tell you how very much I love you 
and how much I'll be thinking of you on Sunday and 
everyday. Father['s] spirit will always be with us, 
but mother, you are right here where we can talk to 
you ard write to you and see you. And I just feel 
that you will be with us for many many years to come. 
So I hope that you will have a happy mothers ' Day 
knowing that all your children and grandchildren are 
close to you. I will be thinking of Ginny and Bob too 
and wondering what they are doing. 


C. Service: J am not sending you any gift because I just 
haven't been out to buy anything. But if there is 
something you want please tell Tat and ask her to 
give you $2.00 for it because that is what I would 
like to give you. I know that this seems a funny 
way to send a gift but I do not know what you want. 

Very much love and kisses^ 

The Miasma in Washington 

C. Service: Earlier in this oral history you've asked me if I felt frightened 
or words to that effect and my answer was no. But, when I got 
home this time, I think that for the first time I did feel 

Levenson: This was 1951. 

C. Service: This was 1951. I did not feel frightened by a person, but I 

felt really frightened by the situation because not only was Jack 
being attacked, but Edmund Clubb was being attacked, John Carter 
Vincent was being attacked. Most of these things were not public 
yet, but these people had all been given interrogatories. John 
Melby was being investigated. John Davies was being investigated. 

Now, all of these people had something to do with China, but 
none of them had been involved in any way so ever with the Amerasia 
case. So, it became evident at this point that this was a real 
attack on the China people per se regardless. They would have 
attacked Jack too regardless of anything else. Anybody connected 
with China at that period who had in any way given a favorable 
picture of the Communists would have been attacked, because by 
this time the country was in quite a state of, not hysteria, but 
of fear, well hysteria too. 

McCarthy was riding high. The Tydings committee was trying 
to investigate things, and they did give Jack a clean bill of 
health. But, there was a kind of miasma — I think that's the word 
I want — in Washington. You really didn't know from day to day 
who would be the next to be attacked and for what reasons. You 
couldn't find out anything. 

Jack had sublet a house on Decatur Place in Washington D.C. 
I could even give you the address — 2226 Decatur Place NW. It's 
a little street that goes between Massachusetts and Connecticut 


C. Service: Avenues above Dupont and Sheridan Circles. This was a little row 

house. It was a very good place for us to live, because Jack could 
actually walk .down to the State Department and it was big enough 
for Philip and me. 

As the summer went on, 1 don't recall any particular thing 
except that every so often something would appear in the press. 
In fact I don't have any very clear picture of this time. 

I said in my letter to Mother, in May, 1951: 

The new promotion list is out and Di-ck is on it. 
That puts him in class III, just one class below 
Jack. At this rate he'll get to the top very rapidly. 
Phil Sprouse made class one which is the class Jack 
would have made if the Loyalty Board had finished 
with him. I guess I told you that he was put on the 
list but wrote a letter taking his name off. They 
would have done it anyway but this more or less cut 
the ground out from under their feet. 

Jack went to the State Department, but what he did I'm not 
certain. I think he was working in the legal adviser's office. 
This he would have to verify. He was being paid, but he had no 
real job. He just sort of was there. 

In August the two older children came home from India. 
We drove to New York to get them. The house in Decatur Place was 
not big enough, and we moved into the house of our New Zealand 
friends George and Pat Laking. They were in Maine and they gave 
us the use of their house which was on 36th Place NW, between 
Wisconsin and Massachusetts. 

It was wonderful of them to give it to us. We didn't pay 

any rent. We paid for the utilities. This was the second time 

we lived in the Lakings' house. We were there long enough for 
us to find a house to live in ourselves. 

The Jack and Dick Services Buy a House 

C. Service: We bought a house. We bought a house on Butterworth Place NW. 
It seemed a very wild thing to do. In order to buy this house 
we had to get our sister-in-law, Dick Service's wife, to come 
in with us. The theory was that one or the other of us would 
always be in Washington, but that probably both families would 
not be there at the same time. 


C. Service: So, Helen raised money for her half. We borrowed and we had a 

little money saved. Well, I don't know where we got any savings, 
but we did have a little money saved. I think that I had bought 
some US. savings bonds from the wife's allotment which I got 
during the second part of the war. My mother loaned us some money, 
and I think Jack's mother did. 

We bought a house on Butterworth Place NW, which was a 
regular, standard Washington house which we liked very much. 
It was 4608. I give these addresses for reference, 4608 Butter- 
worth Place NW. 

We mcved in in September. I went off to Maine to help Pat 
Laking drive back, leaving Jack and the two older children to 
unpack, the furniture, which by this time had come from India, 
and to settle the house. I went to see Helen off in New York — she 
was going to Brussels — and then I went to Maine. 

Well, the fall wore on. My mother was coming to stay with 
us. She was going to stay with us three months. She came in 
October and was going to stay till January. She arrived in 
early October, and she realized that things were not in good 
shape. We were very tense. We were very nervous. I was, 

October 13, 1951 

Dearest Lisa: 

My mother arrived a week ago and she is like a 
tonic to us all. She is full of fighting spirit 
which I am sadly lacking these days. Not that anyone 
can do much of anything but I wish that I were not 
quite so in the dumps most of the time. Now Harold 
Stassen is coming out with all sorts of ridiculous 
statements. I am sure that from here on people will 
be very wary about what kind of "confidential" round- 
table conference they join. Nothing like having 
your words and your meaning misconstrued a few years 
later. Also just who does he think is "plotting" to 
turn India over to communists. I sat next to him 
at a buffet dinner in Delhi and he might just 
possibly have got my name. Maybe when he says that 
all the people who were in China are now trans fering 
to India he thinks Jack got there. I never thought 
much of Stassen before and now I think he is quite 
irresponsible. His thwarted ambitions have made 
him determined to hurt others. Vedemeyer is the 
same. By the way, Jack has an article in the 


C. Service: 

F.S. Journal which will be out on Monday on the 
testimony Wedemeyer gave about him before the 
McCarren Committee. There are certainly plenty 
of people who are willing to get up and testify 
against and ruin any number of people. A dis 
heartening and degrading spectacle. 

Ex-Senator Hiram Bingham's Loyalty Review Board 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

Jack was going through endless hearings again. A new board had 
been set up. Although Jack had been cleared, they decided that 
they would set up another board, an outside board. 

Did they give any reason for this? 

No, they were just going to do everybody that way. It wasn't only 

Who was head of that board? 

This was under [ex-Senator Hiram] Bingham, but he was not the head 
of Jack's board. Jack's board had three men on it. One was 
named [Henry Lee] Shattuck, just like Shattuck Avenue. One was 
named [George William] Alger. The other name Jack gave me and I 
thought I had written it down, but — 

We can fill that in later. Don't worry. 

Yes, I'll get it later. [It was John K. Clark.] 

Anyway, Hiram Bingham was not on Jack's board himself, but 
he had much to do with it. My personal opinion now is that Jack 
never had a chance, that once the Loyalty Review Board got hold 
of it, they were determined to fire somebody — Jack — from the 
State Department. I may be doing Bingham a great injustice, but 
I feel this very strongly. 

Jack was going through hearings, I guess in November, and 
they finished about the middle of November. He and his lawyer 
Ed Rhetttj were told that it would take about three or four weeks 
before the decision was made known. 

You may want to turn it off a minute. 


No, you can leave it running, 
here dated November 16, 1951. 

I have a letter [to Lisa Green] 
I'll read just this part. 


C. Service: About Jack's hearing. He had just one day, 
November 8. 

You see, I thought it was more. 

It was rigorous and he was exhausted when 
it was over. Rhetts went with him and feels that 
Jack did a fine job. At the moment Jack is hard 
at work on a brief to cover the material taken up 
on the eighth. That is due the end of the month 
and then we wait. But, I can't help but feel that 
this board will not keep us in suspense forever. 
There are several t to my mind, good things about 
this panel. 

You see, I must have been more optimistic than I say. 

For one thing they are all older men, in 
their seventies 3 all lawyers of the highest 
ability and caliber. I feel they are above politics. 
Their reputations based on a lifetime of integrity t 
are in no way going to be affected by this case. 
No one on the make t or afraid of being ruined. 
I also think they are all Republicans which would 
be a good thing. However t one may not be. Whether 
I have any basis for it or not I feel much more 
calm and encouraged than I have in a long long 
time: And more than ever I admire Jack. He has 
hidden sources of strength which do not fail him 
at a time like this. I hope and long for a happy 
new year for us all. 

I don't know that I felt that optimistic, but if I wrote this I 
probably felt fairly so. But, on looking back 1 feel that there 
was no chance. Now, that's hindsight, so it perhaps is not valid. 

Levenson: Let me ask why you thought having Republicans on the board was a 
good thing? 

C. Service: Because if they cleared Jack, nobody could say they were Democrats. 
Just that simple. 

Levenson: I see. [Laughter] 

C. Service: You know, they were after Harry Truman and Dean Acheson and so on 

and so forth. People could not say then that they were whitewashing 

Levenson: Yes, I understand. 


C. Service: Anyway, there was just nothing that we could do. 

Levenaon: I'd like to ask one other thing. Why do you say they were 

determined to get, I'm not sure if you said one person, or if 
you said Jack. 

C. Service: I'd put it both ways. I think that somebody had to be fired f.rom 
the State Department. Jack was their easiest target. 

Levenson: Was that because of Amerasia which made Jack's name more recog 
nizable than the other "China hands"? 

C. Service: I think so. If they could fire Jack, they could go after others. 
I'm not trying to say there was a plot. I do not think somebody 
sat down and wrote all this out. I think that there was just 
this feeling that something had to be done, some victim had to 
be given to the public. After all, the whole public in this 
country had been aroused by "Communists in the State Department," 
or by nefarious people, or "Who lost China?" Somebody had to be 
produced . 

Various people kept saying the State Department had Communists 
in it, or that China had been "lost" and so on. They had aroused 
a great deal of fear and apprehension in the American public. 
People were frightened. My older sister in Seattle once told me 
that all her friends thought McCarthy was great. 

But, you can't go on forever saying these things and not 
producing something, unless you just want to admit it was all a 
red herring kind of business which they did not want to admit. 

It was a feeling, a sensation. I think it's true in other 
countries too, not only this country, perhaps even more so in 
some other countries, where you must have a political victim 
every so often. 

The Firing 

C. Service: This is written December 3, 1951, to Lisa. I say, 

We went dancing at the Shoreham, a real treat. 
This is a spree, our only spree since I came home 
fron India. 

Jack had finished his brief the day before, 

and it is now in the hands of the three-man panel, 
or I might better say the laps of the gods. 


C. Service: On December 13, we were having two couples to dinner, Bob Barnett 
and his wife Patricia — he and Jack had known each other as boys 
in China, and Bob is still very much in the China field — and Earl 
and Dorothy Dennis, whom we didn't know very well at that time, 
but who were in New Zealand after us and whom we had become 
friendly with. My mother was there. I was going to have baked 
beans, homemade baked beans for supper. 

About 1:00 o'clock in the afternoon the phone rang and it 
was Jack saying that the board's decision had come in. He was to 
be fired the next day for "reasonable doubt of his loyalty to the 
United States." He was calling from Rhetts' office. 

I can hardly describe my feelings. He said it would be on 
the evening news. In those days there wasn't much television. 
I said that I would come down to Rhetts' office. I told my 
poor mother. My mother was seventy-five years old. I said that 
she must tell the children, or asked her please to tell the 
children because I wouldn't be there when they came home from 

She said, "What about dinner?" I said, "Somebody's got to 
eat this dinner. Don't say anything. They'll just come. We've 
got to have dinner. We might as well have the guests that we 
have asked." 

So, I went down to Ed Rhetts' office, and I wept, of course, 
a great deal. Jack and Ed Rhetts were just sitting there looking 
at each other. I said, "Well, what are you going to do?" 

At that very time, that very hour, that very day Jack — he 
was to be fired; he was to be terminated on the next day at the 
end of work, on the fourteenth; so actually, the firing was to 
take place on December 14; this day was Thursday the thirteenth; — 
they said they were going to appeal. 

We talked about it. I didn't know where they could appeal. 
The processes are very complicated and long. First you appeal to 
the White House to override the Loyalty Review Board and if that 
doesn't work then you must go to court. You have to start with 
the lowest court because the upper courts, of course, won't take 
you. So, you start with the district court, then the court of 
appeals, then the Supreme Court, which is eventually where it 
ended . 


Caroline Confronts ex-Senator Bingham: "Many People Have Had 
Grave Injustices Done to Them" 

C. Service: I must have stayed about an hour, maybe not that long. I kept 
thinking of Hiram Bingham. So, when I left Ed Rhetts' office 
I went to where I knew the Loyalty Review Board held its meetings, 
down on Pennsylvania Avenue in an old building. I had never 
been there before. I walked in. There were no guards or anything. 
I saw where the offices were and I went upstairs to the offices 
and I saw a secretary. I said, "I'm Mrs. John Service and I'd 
like to see Senator Hiram Bingham." 

If I'd come from another planet she couldn't have been 
more shocked. She looked at me. [Chuckle] I have to laugh. 
I looked at her. The woman didn't know what to say. She 
finally said, "Just wait a minute." 

So, pretty soon a man came out. I think his name was Malloy, 
but I would not vouch for it. But, I think that's who he was. 
He said that Senator Bingham was in a conference and could not 
see me, the old ploy. 

So, I said, "You know," — this must have been about 3:00 
o'clock in the afternoon — "I don't know why the Senator can't 
see me. He spent a lot of time on my husband's case and I think 
that he can give me a few minutes of his time." I said, "I have 
nothing I have to do, and I will just sit here. The conference 
must be over sometime. I will just stay here till Senator Bingham 
is free." 

Mr. Malloy, if that's who it was, looked at me and disappeared. 
In about five minutes he came back and said Senator Bingham would 
see me. I was ushered into a handsome office. Senator Bingham 
was a very handsome man, tall, good looking; he took me by the 
hand and said, "What can I do for you little lady?" I could 
have screamed. I could have screamed. "Little lady." Awful . 

So, I said that I thought he had done a great injustice to 
a very worthy man. His reply, which I will never forget, was 
that many people have had grave injustices done to them. 

Now, you know, he was censured by the Senate — 
Levenson: I know. 
C. Service: — and maybe he felt that he had a great injustice done to him. 

Well, that's a horrifying thing to say to somebody though. 
You know, "Many people have had grave injustices done to them. 
I didn't have any answer to it. I said I thought — I suppose 
I reiterated what I'd said. 


C. Service: Then, I said there was something else that I wanted to say to him. 
This is very significant to me, although I didn't know it at the 
time. I said, "You know, when you investigate people you look at 
all the bad contacts they've had, or people that they've met and 
known that they shouldn't have, that they don't even remember, 
that they may have met in the line of their work. But, don't you 
ever take into consideration their upbringing, their families, 
their own lives that they've led?" 

He said yes, of course, they did that. We talked along 
these lines. Obviously nothing was going to happen. We talked 
along for a few more minutes. 

On his desk was a book by Freda Utley. Now, Freda Utley 
was an ex Communist, and she really did do great harm to many, 
many people who had never been Communists. I did note this book. 
I suppose he had gotten a lot of his feelings out of this book by 
Freda Utley. 

I suppose I was with Senator Bingham about fifteen minutes, 
and obviously there was nothing to do but get up and leave. But 
anyway, he said, "Thank you," or I said, "Thank you." I said, 
"Thank you." He patted me again. Out I walked. Patted my 
hand. There was nothing else, just patted my hand. 

I wept quite a bit during this time. And I went home. 
Levenson: I'd like to interrupt a minute. 
C. Service: Yes. 

Levenson: What did you have in mind when you went to see Senator Bingham? 
Did you hope to change anything? 

C. Service: No. I just wanted to say something to him. I just was tired of 
being silent. I wanted to see the man at the top. 

Levenson: Did you feel any better when you'd been there? 

C. Service: Yes, I did. Later on, not that day, but sometime later on I 

told Jack and Ed Rhetts. Ed Rhetts' answer to me was, "If you 
ever do anything like that again, I'll drop this case," because 
there's nothing lawyers hate more than somebody [laughter] doing 
something without asking their advice. But, I never would have 
asked Ed Rhetts, and I didn't ask Jack. I just went. 

There's Jack, 
[tape off] 

Excuse me. The knock will be on the tape. 

Caroline Service's Family, Berkeley, 1944 r. - Mrs. Katherine Schulz, Caroline (Service), 
Sertrude (Hausman) , Katherine (Bruce), and Mr. 
idward Schulz. 

The Service Family, 1950 
Berkeley, Calif. r. - Bob, Caroline, Jack, 
Virginia, and Philip 

Jack 5 Caroline Service 
Washington, ca. 1949 

Philip, Virginia, Robert Service 
Kew Gardens, N.Y. , 1953 

Jack, Ed Rhetts, and Caroline 
in front of the Supreme Court 
Building, April, 1957. 


Grace Boggs Service and Hiram Bingham, 1902 

C. Service: I want here to insert something which happened many years later. 
Jack — This is about Jack's father and mother. 

J. Service: You want me? 

C. Service: No. I heard a thump. 

In 1962 when we retired we came back here to Berkeley. Jack's 
father and mother were both the class of 1902, the University of 
California. One of their classmates was a Miss Lila McKinne. She 
was a maiden lady who lived in San Francisco on Nob Hill. She had 
been a dear friend of my mother-in-law, Grace Service, all her 
college clays and afterwards they kept up the friendship. 

I had luncheon with an old friend of mine who knew Miss McKinne, 
and she said, "Did Miss McKinne ever tell you that Hiram Bingham 
was in love with your mother-in-law?" 

Levenson: What? 

C. Service: I said to this friend of mine, "This is impossible. Where would 
they ever have had any chance to meet? Hiram Bingham went to 
Yale. My mother[-in-law] and father-in-law went to the University 
of California." This friend, Mary Sanders, said, "You ask her 

So, I did. 1 asked Lila McKinne about this. She said, 
"Hiram Bingham came out to the University of California in 1900 
after he had graduated from Yale and did graduate work here." 
Lila McKinne 's exact words were that, "Everybody knew that Hiram 
Bingham was crazy about Grace Boggs." [hitting her thighs with 
her fists] 

I said, "But she was in love with Roy Service." Yes, that 
was true. Everybody knew that too. The university in those days 
was a small place. But, the fact is that Hiram Bingham had 
apparently, whether he was in love with Grace Boggs or not, he 
had admired her, he knew her, he knew that Jack was her son. He 
never, never should have had anything to do with the board that 
was having anything to do with Jack's loyalty case. 

Now, he was not a member of the board, but he was influential. 
When I went in and told him that he should consider Jack's antecedents 
and where he came from, he knew more than I about Jack's background 
in the sense that he knew he had known Jack's mother. 

Jack's mother, of course, was alive at this time. Jack once 
asked her about this. Jack knew something about this, and she 
never would tell him anything about her connection with Hiram 


C. Service: Bingham. But there had been some connection, whether she spurned 
him, whether she deflated his ego, I do not know. Would anybody 
carry this grudge and get back at someone else fifty years later? 
I don't know. 

But, I do know there was some connection between Hiram Bingham 
and Grace Boggs Service, and that he should never have had anything 
to do with Jack's case. That's my feeling about it. This 1 did 
not learn till years later. 

Friends and Family Rally Round 

C. Service: Now, I will go back to 1951. The children were magnificent. Our 
children came home from school. We did have our friends to dinner 
that December night. It was like a wake, obviously. They did not 
know a thing when they arrived, and we told them. It was on the 
six o'clock news. In those days, people listened to the radio. 

The next day Jack went down to the State Department. He had 
to collect his papers. He had to collect whatever he had down 
there. I'm not sure that I didn't go with him. I did go down once 
with him, and it may have been that day. 

We were received by [Carlisle H.] Humelsine, who was deputy 
undersecretary of state for administration, I think. He was very 
gracious. I think the State Department was in a state of shock. 
They really were in a state of shock. It was in all the morning 
papers, of course, right on the front page. 

The very first person who called us on the morning of the 
fourteenth was Ed [win] Stanton, whom we'd known in Shanghai, Edwin 
F. Stanton. He was ambassador to Thailand. He was on home 
leave, ynd he and his wife Josi phoned us. They had gotten up 
very early and read the paper and they called us. 

Endless people called us. I cannot tell you how much our 
friends helped us. I do not know what we would have done without 
them. My mother was magnificent. We called Jack's mother. All our 
State Department friends, our neighbors, everybody — some college 
friends, an old childhood friend of mine, Nancy Clark. 

We did not have a bad experience at this time. We had one or 
two later on, but nothing at this time. The Lakings came round with 
some red roses. Pat said she couldn't think of anything else to do 
but bring us some red roses. People just came round and talked to 
us and called us up. And, of course, the papers called. The 
children went off to school. What else? 


Levenson: Good. 
C. Service: 

We talked to them and they did not have a bad experience. There 
was no TV. Perhaps some of the other students didn't know. No, 
they did not have a hard time. I don't know that anybody even 
mentioned anything to them about it. They were both in senior 
high school. Philip was in first grade. 

We vere flattened out, you know. We were in a state of — 
In the first place we didn't believe it was true. I'm sure this 
is true of any experience that comes out of the clouds at you. 
This didn't exactly come out of the clouds because it had been 
building up for years. But, still it was as though — We couldn't 
believe it. 

For the rest of the month — We did get through Christmas. 
We had a very nice Christmas. My mother was wonderful. My mother 
did a great deal for us. On New Year's Eve we had a party. Now, 
New Year's Eve has always been of special significance to Jack 
for some reason. He likes New Year's better than he likes 
Christmas or any other holiday. 

The day before, I guess, we called up people and said if 
anybody wanted to drop in, please come after 8:00 o'clock or 
something like that. So — many, many people came. Some didn't 
stay. They just came by to say hello. Some stayed. My mother 
had cooked a turkey. We had a kind of a cold buffet. 

The two older children were going out to parties. So, we 
had quite a normal time. It was amazing how normal a New Year's 
Eve we did have. At this point we didn't know what we were going 
to do. 

Or, January 12, 1952, I wrote to Lisa. 

Dearest Lisa, 

I'm sure I'll get nothing but this type of 
measly scratch written for some time to come. Please 
be patient as I'm sure you will — the letters have 
piled up and I feel I shall never get them answered. 
Jack was so very touched and pleased by Marshall's 
letter. J. keeps his calm exterior but he has been 
hurt to the depths of his soul — and it is a hurt 
that I doubt if he'll ever completely get over, I 
dor.'t believe I shall either... I'm glad you 
received the Pogo book and are enjoying it. Jack, 
picks it up every now and then even tho he 's read 
it thru and I will hear him begin to chuckle. J's 
appeal to the Review Board has been turned down as 


C. Service: we knew it would be. Now the appeal has gone 

to the President. If it is turned down there, Ed 
Rhetts is determined to take it thru the courts. 
McCarthy let it out thru a direct leak from the 
Review Board! that they were determined to get 
a victim from the State Dept. A preconceived bias 
against Jack, certainly. The F[oreign] S[ervice] 
Journal has come out with a very strong editorial 
pro- Jack. . .Remember I can still shop for you. 

"This Endless Fight" 

February 4, 1952 

. . . There is no news in our lives . Nothing 
at all has been heard from the appeal to the Pres. 
and I am beginning to think that the whole thing 
may be ignored. Hard to see how that can be 
but apparently anything is possible these days, 
expecially when a man is down. Presumably Rhetts 
must get some answer from this appeal before he can 
think of taking it to court because there are certain 
steps which must be taken before the next level is 
reached. At this point both Jack and I are 42 
years old and I see the years stretching ahead with 
this wretched business constantly with us no matter 
what else we may do. Years and years and years of 
litigation and arguing and never knowing when things 
will end or what the end will be. Is it really worth 
it do you think? People who know us or know anything 
about the Foreign Service or the great rumblings and 
strivings of the masses in Asia or the political 
repercussions of the China situation at home know 
that Jack is a man of integrity and loyalty. People 
who don't know him but believe in fairness and 
decency also think well of him. As for the others , 
those who wish to believe McCarthy , nothing in the 
world will convince them that the State Dept. has not 
and is not now harboring all kinds of "wicked" people 
from Dean Acheson on down. Jack seems determined to 
go on and I will do my best not to discourage him in 
this endless fight but if we had any income at all I 
would be quite happy to go to some out-of-the-way 
place and try to live a life of obscurity and 
forget fulness. There are so many things in the world 
that I would like to do — study , travel, birds, 
anthropology, etc. etc. so much that can be learned 


C. Service: by just sitting and observing what goes on around 

one, and all we do is knock our brains out along 
this line. I am convinced that time and history 
will vindicate Jack but I expect he feels he can't 
wait for that. Sorry to bore you with all this 
philosophy zing. ..Friday I went to a coctail party 
at Lt. Gen. and Mrs. Maxwell Taylors'. Jack absent 
[with flu]. He is Deputy Chief of Staff and there 
is a good chance of his being the next Chief of 
Staff. Durbrow and his wife were there and you 
should have seen his eyes pop open when he saw me 
there. The wheels were churning round and round. 
I didn't bother to tell him that I have known Max 
Taylor for 28 years, ever since he was a second 
Lt. in my father's regiment in Hawaii and brought 
his wife there as a bride. I just let Durbrow 
come to any conclusions he wanted to. Ha! — ... 
Wonder what he will do now. — Last week I went to 
one of the John Carter Vincent hearings. I have 
never been to anything that disgusted me quite 
so much. The senators and their counsels brow-beat, 
ridiculed, and attempted to trap J. C. in every 
way they possibly could. There was nothing fair 
about the hearing and the man was made to answer 
yes and no to questions that that could not be 
answered that way. If he could not remember some 
thing he was accused of evasion. If he did remember 
that was a sign of something sinister. In fact 
any and every action and thought was made to appear 
part of a plot. It strikes me that the American 
ideals of justice and fair play are no part of the 
equipment of any member of this committee. If I 
sew my children indulging in such tactics against 
one of their number I would be horrified beyond 
words at the breakdown of what I consider basic 
human qualities of fairness. 

Crank Calls and Job Offers 

Levenson: Technically, was Jack out of work — unemployed? 

C. Service: Yes, he was unemployed, definitely. [Chuckle] Oh, yes. Yes, he 
was just at home. But, he was seeing his lawyer a lot. He was 
beginning to try to answer some of the endless mail. But, he had 
no job, cf course, and we didn't know where we were going to get 
a job. 


C. Service: 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 
C. Service: 

Now, several people phoned us, several friends, and said they 
hoped they'd be able to do something about jobs. They knew 
somebody who knew somebody, or had some connection. 

Actually, we were extremely lucky. We might have been out 
of work for months and years. But, I believe it was on January 4, 
[1952], which you see was only about three weeks after Jack was 
fired, that he got a letter from Clement Wells, an Englishman — we 
didn't know that at the time — who had a company called Sarco Inc., 
which made steam traps, which are put on pipes and radiators in 
factories and so on to keep steam in and let out water. This is 
all I really have understood about them. Mr. Wells said that if 
Jack was looking for a job, he would give him one. 

He said he thought he'd been given a very punk deal by the 
government. I don't think he used the word punk, but he'd been 
given a bad deal by the government, and he would hire Jack if 
Jack wanted to come and work for him. He was thinking of setting 
up an international section of the business. I'm not sure that 
was in the letter. It was very short. 

Well, Jack at this point was so gun shy, in the sense that — 
We'd begun to get a few crank calls. We had one anonymous phone 
caller who called us up at any time of the day or night and used 
the most foul — 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 

Can you give me a sense of the tenor of the calls? 
the exact language. 

I don't need 

Yes, they were scatological and sexual for the most part, accusing 
Jack of homosexuality, or me of lesbianism if I answered the phone, 
and using words which I honestly at that time had never heard, 
which I'd never heard anybody say. He also called Jack a murderer. 
Jack murdered everybody in South Korea. You see, this kind of 
thing. He was a nut. I suppose he was a nut. 

We talked to Ed Rhetts. These [calls] were very frequent. 
Our main concern was that the children shouldn't answer the phone. 
My mother did once, and she couldn't believe her earsJ He just 
started off. He didn't ask anything. He just started off saying 
these dreadful things, but no sense to them. 

How did this affect you? 

I was scared. 


I was really scared. We talked to Jack's lawyer. Everybody 
assured me people who make anonymous phone calls are not dangerous. 
I said, "What if he comes round to the house and sets fire to it, 
or hurts the children?" They said, "Things like that don't happen. 1 
Well, maybe they're right — 


Levenson: That's not true. 

C. Service: — but, that didn't make me feel good. You see, I was really 

terrified. Then, we thought we'd get an unlisted number. But, 
then we realized the people who really needed to call us and 
wanted to call us couldn't. 

So, we just did nothing. We just tried to answer the phone 
ourselves. We'd sometimes keep him on, try to see if it was any 
voice we recognized. But we never recognized it. I don't think 
it was anybody who had any connection with us. I think it was 
just a crank. 

These calls finally tapered off, but they kept on until 
April. By this time Jack was in New York. One night in April 
this man called. He called about 11:00 o'clock, and I hung up. 
He called again. I left the phone off the hook all night. I 
think I may have said to him I'm going to call the police or 
something, and left the phone off the hook. I was alone in the 
house with the children. But, anyway, that was the end of the 
anonymous phone calls. 

Jack talked to Ed Rhetts about Mr. Wells' letter, because 
although he had one or two other offers — Somebody wrote who 
had a marine supply store, and he said he'd give Jack a job. 
One other person wrote who lived way up in New England and said 
he'd give Jack a job doing some small thing. Jack answered them. 
It was noble of them to write, but we couldn't have lived on any 
thing that Jack could have made in those jobs. 

We had no money. What little savings we had we'd put into 
the houre. Then, Jack did get his retirement back, I believe 
$8,000, which we put into the house again. We practically paid 
off our part of the mortgage. The house cost $32,000. 

Mr. Clement Wells and Sarco; Jack Learns the Steam Trap Business 

C. Service: Jack talked to Ed Rhetts, and they looked up Sarco in Dun and 
Bradstreet. The company had a very good rating. It was a 
bona fide company. That was what Jack was afraid of, that it was 
just some crank writing, because we did get some crank letters 
too. "Why don't you go and jump in the ocean?" — that kind of thing. 

Jack went to New York and saw Mr. Wells. Mr. Wells offered 
him a job, I believe, at $9,000 a year. I think in the State 
Department at that time Jack was getting $11,000, but it sounded 
awfully good to us. Jack asked him if he could delay his answer 
for a short time to see if perhaps he'd be offered a job overseas. 


C. Service: What Jack really had hoped — or we both had in mind — was that 

perhaps some oil company would hire Jack or something like that, 
or some international company, and we could go overseas and get 
uway from the publicity. Well, nobody would touch Jack who had 
to worry about public relations. Nobody would touch him with a 
ten foot pole. 

Mr. Wells had a small company. He didn't have to worry about 
public relations. He really thought he could use Jack. He offered 
him a job. He saved our lives. We can be eternally grateful to 
Mr. Clement Wells who turned out to be a little Englishman who 
wore great big starched collars and was a very interesting man. 

He was at that time in his sixties, no, his early seventies 
maybe. Yes, I think he was. He'd had a very interesting career 
himself. He had no children. He had a wife, Bettina. He had 
befriended other people who worked for him. He had taken in 
Jewish refugees, people who had fled Hitler. He was a remarkable 
man. He ran his business like a little potentate, but that was 
all right. He did good things for people. 

By February, [1952], it was obvious to us that Jack was not 
going to get any other offers that could support us. So, Jack 
either wrote or called Mr. Wells and said if the job were still 
open he'd be very glad to take it. Mr. Wells said, "Yes, but you 
must go to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, where our factory is and work 
on an assembly line for two weeks to find out how steam traps are 
put together." 

Jack was very willing to do this. We decided that I would 
stay in Washington with the children until summer, and then we 
would move to New York. Actually we stayed till fall, to get 
through the summer vacation because the children had friends in 
Washington and would have a much better time there than in New York. 
This would give Jack time to become used to working at Sarco. He 
could look around for an apartment, and we would start a new life. 

Levenson: How old was Jack at this point? 

C. Service: Jack was — I'm trying to think — Jack was forty-two when he was 

fired. I was forty-two also, right. Virginia was sixteen, Bob 
was almost fifteen, and Philip was six. 

A Kinsmen's Trust Scholarship for Bob 

C. Service: In the spring, sometime in the spring, Bob, by then fifteen, came 
home from school one day, and brought some material about the 
Kinsmen's Trust Scholarship fund, which was set up by English 


C. Service: people whose children had been taken care of in Canada and the 
United States during the war, and who wished to do something to 
show their gratitude. So, they had set up a trust fund which was 
open to American and Canadian secondary school students. This 
scholarship notice was on a bulletin board at the Woodrow Wilson 
High School. Bob had read it on the bulletin board. 

He came home and he said he would like to apply for the 
scholarship and go to England for a year to school. I said, "Oh 
Bob, you'll never get it. The minute they read your name you 
won't get it." He looked at me and said, "Well, I'd like to 
apply." I thought, "Well, okay." So, I said, "Okay." 

So, Bob brought the forms home, aid I filled them out. We 
had to have several letters of recommendation. I wrote to 
Sir Patrick Duff who had been the U[nited] K[ingdom] high 
commissioner in New Zealand when we lived there. He remembered 
Bob quite well. He wrote a very fine letter. 

I asked Joe Rauh — Joseph Rauh, Jr. if he would write one 
because he knew Bob very well through Bob's friendship with his 
son Mike when they were in junior high together. Joe Rauh wrote 
a letter. I believe that somebody from the school also wrote. 
That was it. 

A little later in the spring Bob had won one of these 

Levenson: How great! 

C. Service: I cannot tell you to this day how [pause for emotional reasons] 
moving it was. 

[tape off] 

C. Service: One of the things that hurts you the most is how your children 
are going to be affected, if they are going to be harmed, if 
their lives are really going to be injured. 

I think that when this scholarship came through for Bob — 
Now, Bob also had a fine scholastic record. He was an excellent 
student. He always had been. All the children have been good 

Of course, I called up Jack when it came through. He knew 
that I had sent in the forms. I think it gave us both such a 
lift. It made us feel that everything was not going to be bad. 
It made Bob feel great. It made Ginny feel great. It made the 
whole family feel great. We just felt that there was a future of 
some kind. 


The American Legion Good Citizenship Award for Virginia, but 
no Foreign Service Scholarship 

C. Service: At this point we decided to stay in Washington until September. 
Then, Bob could go directly to England. Also, we decided that 
we would try to leave Ginny in Washington because Ginny had only 
another half year of high school — She'd graduate in the middle 
of the year. It was just terrible to move her because she'd 
already had three moves. There was no point to this. 

So, we began to ask and inquire if she could live with 
anybody. A young couple named Frank and Jean Lockhart said they 
would be glad to have Ginny live with them. 

Frank Lockhart was the son of the older Frank Lockhart, who 
had been one of our first bosses. He had been the counselor at 
the embassy in Peking, and he had been consul-general in Shanghai. 
We had known him and his wife very, very well. 

Now, young Frank we had never met until later, in Washington. 
Jean, his wife, was a doctor. She was doing her internship, and 
she had had one baby and was about to have a second. They had a 
little room in their house which Ginny could have. Jean also had 
a housekeeper, from someplace in Latin America. But, they had 
this little room and they said Ginny could use it and that 
occasionally she could babysit and that she could perhaps help. 
The housekeeper was not much older than Ginny. 

So, the Lockharts saved our lives in that respect. Ginny 
lived with them, and she got a job Saturdays clerking in Garfinkel's. 
She graduated in the middle of the year. She graduated second in 
her class — and was the salutatorian. 

Levenson: How great. 

C. Service: — and she also was given a Good Citizenship award by the American 

Levenson: [Chuckle] That's pretty funny, isn't it? 

C. Service: We wondered to ourselves whether or not they knew who Ginny was. 
It was ironic, wasn't it? 

Levenson: Yes. 

C. Service: However, Bob had gotten something very good, and Ginny had gotten 
something very good in spite of everything. 

But, the next year Ginny applied for a Foreign Service 
scholarship for college, and she did not get one. When we went 
back to Washington five years later, a woman there whose name I 


C. Service: do not remember — I don't think I knew her — but, she came up to 
me at a luncheon and she said oh, she was so glad that we were 
back and that Jack was reinstated in the Foreign Service. Then, 
she said out of the clear blue sky, "You know we wanted to give 
Virginia a Foreign Service scholarship that year, but we didn't 
dare do it." She thought they just couldn't do it. 

Now that, to my mind, was awful. Not this woman, this woman, 
I never felt anything against her and I don't remember her name. 
But that they did not have the guts to give Ginny, who really did 
deserve it because she too had fine grades, a Foreign Service 
scholarship. Her grades warranted it; everything warranted it. 
She'd be~n elected to the National Honor Society too. You know, 
that still makes me mad, that they didn't have the nerve to give 
Ginny a scholarship. 

1 'Politically Acheson and Truman Could not Save Jack' ' 

Levenson: You've spoken of individual friends and colleagues being outstanding. 
What about the behavior of the State Department, the high officials 
at the State Department itself? How do you feel about them? 

C. Service: We didn't know any high officials — at least I didn't — in the 

State Department. We knew lots of ambassadors, our friends who'd 
been ambassadors or people we'd served with. But, when you say 
high officials, appointed officials like the secretary of state? 

Levenson: Yes. 

C. Service: It was [Dean] Acheson. 

I think he held great regrets , but — all this is grapevine , 
now. I did hear that Mrs. Acheson had considered calling me up. 
But, if she considered it, she didn't do it. No, there was no 
contact at all. I did not know Mrs. Acheson personally. If I 
had, she might have said something to me. 

[To Lisa Green] 

May 22, 1952 

Went to the Foreign Service Wives luncheon 
on Monday. The biggest crowd yet. Was quite 
surprised when I got a card to it but then I 
realized that widows and wives of ex-F.S. men 
are always included, so I took my courage in my 
hand and went. Mrs. Acheson headed the line and 
I am sure she knew who I was. Mrs. Bruce was next 
in line looking perfectly lovely, and Myrna Loy was 


C. Service: further down the line also looking 'Lovely and 
just as she looks in the movies. She wore a 
rust colored hat that exactly matched her hair 
and a brown suit. I sat at a table with no one 
I'd ever met before but it didn't really matter. 
We all drew numbers out of a bowl. 

The assistant secretaries of state, we didn't know any of 
them. I_ didn't know any of them. Well, I think they were all 
stunned. I think they were terrified. No, people like that aren't 
terrified. I don't mean to say that. But, I think that there was 
a terrible feeling of unease. 

Levenson: Do you think if Acheson had gone to Truman and said, "We can't 

permit this to happen," that the process could have been arrested? 

C. Service: I do not think politically that they could have done it. Now, in 

all fairness to Acheson, Truman, and everybody — I think politically 
they could not save Jack. They would have had McCarthy absolutely 
all over them. 

McCarthy was jubilant, of course, when Jack was fired. So 
were lots of other people, but these were people we didn't know in 
any sense. But, they had achieved their aim. They had got some 
body fired. They couldn't say he was a Communist because Jack 
was never a Communist and never thought of being one. They couldn't 
do that. But, he had contributed, they said, to the "loss of China." 
Anyway, they had gotten a sinner out of the State Department. 

I do not think Acheson or Truman could have done a thing to 
save Jack. If they had, they would have ruined themselves. I 
don't mean ruined in any big sense, but the flak they would have 
had to take would have been terrible. I don't think anybody could 
have done it. 

Later on Edmund Clubb did manage to get reinstated. Have you 
read Edmund Clubb 's book?* Anyway, in Edmund Clubb 's case they did 
get a review by another man, and finally he was allowed to retire, 
because there was something in the act which said that this could 
be done, in the Loyalty Security Act. But, even then, they [the 
State Department] took a lot of abuse from the press and from 
other people for doing this. 

*Edmund 0. Clubb, The Witness and I, New York: Columbia University 
Press, 1974. 


C. Service: John Carter Vincent was allowed to retire too. After that a good 
many people were fired, but there was no publicity about them. 
John Melby was fired. He had a terrible time. He did not get a 
Job for years. 

In some ways all of Jack's publicity got him his job probably. 
Is there anything else you want to ask me about that, that comes 
up here? 

I'm trying to think too. I would say that looking back on the 
times, the only thing that could be done was what Ed Rhetts decided 
to do, appeal to the White House. That was turned down, the appeal 
to the White House. This is what you were asking about — could 
Acheson have gone to Truman? Well, Jack's lawyer went to Truman. 
He tried it. It was turned down. 

Then, the next thing they had to do was to get the case into 
the district court. That was done just when we were moving to 
New York. 

Relations with the Press: David Lawrence Confronted by Caroline 

Levenson: In December, 1951, how did the press or, as we would now say, 
the media, treat you? 

C. Service: Actually Jack was nearly always treated well by the newspapers. 
They reported things factually. Now, the Scripps Howard press 
was against Jack. Oh, yes! I do have one episode to report in 
here. There were certain columnists who were very violently 
anti-Jack. Jack was just a symbol to them. But, they 
never missed a chance to say something unpleasant about him. 

The Washington Post, the Evening Star, they were fine, what 
I call the really good newspapers. They were factual; they did 
not mince any words, but they did Jack justice. The Washington Star 
did a fine interview with Jack. 

David Lawrence wrote a column — it must have been late 
December — about Jack, saying, as I recall, that he'd given some 
State Department documents, not the Amerasia things but other 
things, to somebody. 

Now, that may not be what he said, but he said something that 
was absolutely not true. I said to Jack, "Aren't you going to do 
something about this? Aren't you going to have Ed Rhetts write a 
letter? This is a falsehood! They all know it." 


\A/ASHIWOTON— The lefi-wing wpologists have already begun to 
' nibble away at the verdirt rendered by the United States Loy 
alty Board in holding that there is "reasonable doubt" as to the 

r loyalty to the United States government of John S. Service, one of 

I pft-\A/mn AnrtJAff icte &••«*.« the ex P prls on Far Eastern policy in the Department of State for 
L.CI I ¥ V II I VI A-\PUI V/y ISlS DUSy several years, who now has hpe n dismissed. 

The argument Is made that Service was Indiscreet, of course 

— Bv DAVID LAWRENCE hut lhat he has an Pxtensive knowledge of the Far East, and pre 

sumably should have been retained— that all he did was to lend to 
someone outside the department documents he himself had written 
anyway; th»t this was the usual way to keep newspapermen in 
formed In those days; that after all, he wasn't proved or found to 
be a Communist and that the action taken just, helps Senator Mc 
Carthy's crusade. 

V V *fc ' 

ACTUALLY, the words of the J-oyalty Review Board demolifch 
~ every one of those point.--. The board says Service was a trusted 
officer, that he had no business lending any State Department doc 
uments to a man whom he himself suspected from his first meeting 
to be a Communist and yet had several. meetings thereafter with 

Nor can there be disregarded the actual words of a 'recording 
made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of what went on in the 
hoM room of a suspected Communist who was being visited by 
Service. That record shows incidentally a discussion of a military 
"plan" by Service. 

THE famous "whitewash" by the Tydings subcommittee of the Sen- 
1 ate Foreign Relations Committee brushed all this aside by de 
claring that Service wasn't a military expert and that matters he 
referred to were not within his scope anyway. The Tydings sub-t 
committee cleared Service. 

The defense of Service may be expected now to pour forth from 
the left-wing side because at last someone who helped and supported 
the policy under which Chiang Kai shek was undermined in his 
relationship with the State Department has been dismissed from 
the government. The panel which condemned Service, it is known, 
consists of three eminent members of the bar, but their names 
have been kppt confidential. 

if- .Y- .y 

\A/HAT Is involved in many of these disloyalty cases is contact 
" with, association with, intimacy with persons who have been 
mentioned In congressional testimony as part of a Soviet espionage 
ling by wiliirssrs who are f-A-Cummunibls. 

Service admits he asked a friend after his first meeting on 
April 20. 1945, if Jaffe was a Communist. He was told by a naval 
intelligence officer that Jaffe was extremely sympathetic to the 

Yet, though Jaffe was a man that Service professed not to know 
intimately, he went to his liotel room and met him several times 
thereafter and loaned him his own confidential reports that reflected 
on Chiang Kai-shek's regime and spoke favorably of the Reds in 
China. The F.RJT. raided the Amerasla offices and found many 
State DepjrjmenTdocuments that had been JbtaTneJ'from Rim arid 
from persons l)f her tnaiTFefv'ice. Some were highly secret'. "^^i*-* 

if. If. X. ^"~"" ^"~ 

THIS can't be excused on the ground that State Department olfi- 
1 cers were ir\ the habit of "briefing" the press. Brooks Atkinson, 
reputable correspondent of The New York Times, testified that he 
couldn't get information from Service. 

The clandestine meetings In which Sendee and Jaffe partici 
pated and the nature af the conversations recordpd by the F. B. I. 
and the evidence nil point clearly to the fact that, at best, Service 
may have been duped, or may have been carried away by his par 
tisanship for the Chinese Communists who he thought were better 
than Chiang's Nationalist's, and that he did use bad judgment 

THE debacle in Korea in which 100.000 casualties have happened is 
' the direct result of faulty American policy in China. They were 
nice fellows, too. Mistake.-, must be punished and that's why the 
United States Loyalty Review Board summed up the case of Sendee 
as follows: 

"We are not required to find Service guilty of disloyalty, and 
we do not do so; but for a trusted representative of our State De 
partment to so far forget his duty to his trust as his conduct Mrtth 
Jaffe so clearly indicates, forces us with great regret to conclude 
that there is reasonable doubt as to his loyalty. The favorable rind- 
Ing of the Loyalty Security Board of the State Department is accord 
ingly reversed." 

V V * 

f^OES this mean that Service is not today a loyal citizen of his 
••* country? Not at all. It merely means his conduct, consciously or 
unconsciously, aided at one time those who were on the Communist 
side and that his judgment or discretion is not of a nature which 
warrants his continuance In the State Department 
(Copyright, 1951.) 


C. Service: Jack said, "What's the use? All you do is get into an argument 
with them." Ed Rhetts, I think, decided against a protest. 
Nobody paid any attention to it, but it was a factual misstatement. 

So, I — once again — [chuckle] decided I was going to see 
David Lawrence. I told nobody about it except my mother. My 
mother was still with us. I said, "Mother, I am going down to 
see David Lawrence." 

My mother — who was a pretty fiery type — said, "All right, 
go." [Chuckle] So, I said, "If Jack comes home, before I 
do," — because he wasn't working — "don't tell him where I've gone. 
Just tell him I'm out." 

So, I went down to U.S. News and World Report. I walked up 
to the receptionist, and I said, "I am Mrs. John Service and I 
would like to see Mr. David Lawrence." She really looked much 
more frightened, or much more surprised, let us say, than the 
woman at Hiram Bingham's place. She went out of the room. She 
came back and said, "Mr. Lawrence cannot see you. He is in a 
conference . " [Laughter ] 

Levenson: Same old ploy. 

C. Service: I said, "I have nothing to do. I'll wait. I have not a thing to 
do. I'll sit on this chair. I'll just stay here. He's got to 
go home sometime." So, I sat down, and she looked at me for 
about five minutes. Finally she got up and went out of the room. 
Then, she came back. She said, "Mr. Lawrence will see you." 

He only saw me, though, in the hall. There was a little 

antercom. So, he came out, and we sat down on chairs. I wish I 

had the column, but I don't know what happened to it. [Found 
subsequent to interview. R.L.] 

I said, "This is a mistake. This is not so." He began to 
read it, and then he ran into his office and he brought out some 
other things. Finally, he said he'd made a mistake. He didn't 
say, "It isn't so," but he admitted it was a factual error. 

I said, "I hope you'll never write anything like that again 
about my husband. Your views on my husband are your own. If 
you want to think he's of doubtful loyalty that's your privilege. 
But, this is not so, what you've written here." He agreed it was 
not so. He said he would not write it again. He got up and left. 

I vent back into the receptionist's room to say goodbye to 
her. I had left galoshes — it was winter — and I had left my 
galoshes around another corner. I had to go pick them up. So, 
I disappeared around this corner. 


C. Service: My dear, she came after me like a flash! I don't know whether she 

thought 1 was going to follow Lawrence and shoot him or do something 
strange. Anyway, when she saw me sitting there putting on my 
galoshes, she blushed. [Laughter] I said, "I'm just getting my 
galoshes." I think she thought I was going to follow him into his 
office. So, I got up and left. 

As far as I know, David Lawrence has never written another 
word about Jack. I didn't tell Jack for a long time about going 
to see. him. I don't know that I ever told Ed Rhetts. I think 
that's the last time I took it upon myself to go and put in my 
two cents worth about — But, I just couldn't stand this kind of 
thing. Many another time I have felt like it, but 1 haven't. 

Levenson: You say you announced yourself as Mrs. John Service. Now, perhaps 
I'm wrong, but I thought John Stewart Service was the way that 
hostile people referred to Jack? 

C. Service: That's right. He was never known as John Stewart Service till the 
Amerasia business. I would ordinarily have said, "I'm Caroline 
Service, Jack Service's wife. But, they were writing about John 
Stewart Service, it's true, so I always said, "I'm Mrs. John 
Service." When I went into David Lawrence's office, and the 
receptionist came out and said he was busy, I said, "But, he's 
taken the time to write a column about my husband. I think he 
could take the time to see me." I did feel that way. I felt 
very strongly about this. 

Levenson: Quite rightly. 

C. Service: The strange thing was that sometime before we went off to India — so 
this must have been either late 1949 or early 1950 — we went to a 
meeting in Washington. We went with John Emmerson. Maybe Dorothy 
was along too. It was down on F Street in some sort of meeting 
hall. David Lawrence was the speaker, and this was shortly after 
China had been taken over by the Communists. 

Somebody asked him if we would have to recognize mainland 
China, or whatever they called it then, Red China. His answer 
was "yes." Now, he has devoted the rest of his life to saying, 
"No, we shouldn't," but, that night we heard him with our own 
ears say, "This is probably inevitable," that we would have to 
someday. But, whether he changed his mind, or else he didn't 
think it was a good tack, I don't know. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 



And I have every confidence that time is on our side. I hope 

to live long enough to read an objective history of this period. . . 

C. Service to Lisa Green, March 26, 1952 

Discrimination in Housing; the Equitable Life Assurance Company 
Refuses to Rent to the Services: Kew Gardens 

C. Service: During the summer, Jack rented an apartment in the Bronx. It was 
owned by the Equitable Life Assurance Company. When they found 
out who Jack was — I suppose they investigated everybody that 
rented an apartment — they refused to rent it to him. Jack said, 
"But you've taken my check!" They gave him a check right back. 
Jack even got the State Department to guarantee that he wasn't 
going to do something dreadful. I don't know whether it was the 
State Department itself or the Foreign Service Association, but 
they did their best to make Equitable Life take Jack in, let him 
have the apartment. 

I really think I know how displaced persons feel. I thought 
of all those poor wretched people who had come to Shanghai in the 
late 1930' s. 

Levenson: Yes. 

C. Service: They had no place to lay their heads. 

Levenson: At least there was a group of them. There was only one family of 

C. Service: True, was a group, yes. But, I realized how awful it is to 
be a pariah. We weren't pariahs with our friends. But, when it 
came to something like this we were. 


C. Service: This was just about two or three weeks before we were to move. 

Then Jack finally found a place in Kew Gardens. We had no trouble 
there. Nobody cared. I think the apartment was not owned by a 
big company. They didn't ask him anything. Maybe they didn't 
know who Jack was. But, they didn't ask him anything, and we 
moved to Kew Gardens in September, 1952. 

Levenson: We could stop now if you want to. 

C. Service: I'll just give you this and then we can stop. We lived in apart 
ment 6H 123-35 82nd Road, Kew Gardens, New York. I had never been 
in Kew Gardens, New York. In many ways New York and everything 
about it was more foreign to me than living abroad. I felt as 
though I'd come to a foreign country in lots of ways. 

Levenson: How so? 

C. Service: It was a new experience. I've puzzled about it many times. I 

can't raally give any good reason, except that I'd never lived in 
such an enormous city. But, I had — Shanghai. I think it was 
becauj-e we didn't know anybody around us. We did eventually, of 
course. We made friends. 

Also, all my life I'd been either in the army or the Foreign 
Service. There had always been a readymade group. Even if we 
lived in cities my father, by coming in as the Army Engineer, 
always had a position. 

Levenson: You were the daughter of the regiment! 

C. Service: Not quite. Well, at Fort Humphreys I was. But, when going to a 
new place, in either the army or the Foreign Service, you have a 
place already cut out for you. 

Going to Kew Gardens, New York, we were like refugees. We 
were just like refugees. Nobody cared about us. Why should 
anybody care about us? We didn't know anybody. 

Now, we did make friends in New York. There were friends in 
New York who lived in New Jersey or in Manhattan or out in 
Westchester. So, we had friends nearby whom we saw. But, right 
where we were living we didn't know anybody. So, it was a new 
thing. I'll stop there for today. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 


A Visit From the FBI 

[Interview 7: November 18, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

C. Service: I don't think I told you about the FBI man who came to see me in 
New York. He didn't come to see me. He knocked on the door. I 
better put that in. Very shortly after we had started living in 
Kew Gardens, I came home from work one afternoon, and a man 
knocked at the door and announced he was an FBI agent and could 
he come in. 

I was tired and I was cross and I said, "Well, I've just 
gotten home. What do you want?" He said, "I want to ask you 
about the man across the hall." 

The man across the hall worked for the UN, and perhaps it 
is forgotten now, but at one point the UN was being savagely 
attacked and various members — We knew the neighbor had been 
mentioned on radio or in the paper. 

So, I said, "Well, come in." The man across the hall was a 
very pleasant man. He lived with his mother. I said, "You'll 
have to sit in the kitchen, because I am going to have a cup of 

The FBI man's name was Swan — what else I don't know — Mr. Swan 
from Georgia. He had a thick Georgia accent. Then, he started 
to ask me these questions, the kind of questions I consider stupid. 
Did I know So-and-so across the hall, whose name I don't remember 
now. I said yes, I did. He said, "Do you consider him a loyal 

I said, "Look Mr. Swan, I see this man in the elevator. How 
would anybody in the wide world know who's a loyal American and 
who isn't, if they met in an elevator?" Once in a while I talked 
to him and his mother. I said, "In any event what do you mean by 
a loyal American?" 

I suppose he had to ask these questions . I finally ended up 
giving pocr Mr. Swan a hard time. I said, "Why are you working 
for the FBI anyway?" He didn't say anything. I said, "It's a 
job, isn't it? You're a lawyer, aren't you? You've got a law 
degree and you're going into a law firm." Poor Mr. Swan, he was 
so young. He said yes, he did have a law degree. [Laughter] 

Mr. Swan left pretty soon because I said, "You know whom 
you're talking to? You know who I am? I'm the wife of John 
Stewart Service. Why are you coming to me for this kind of a 
character for somebody across the hall? Maybe you shouldn't be 
talking f.o me. Maybe this will be held against you." I was cross 
and I was mad and Mr. Swan — 


Levenson: How did he respond to that? 

C. Service: He just mumbled. He didn't really respond to me at all much. 

He had been trained to ask questions, and if I blew off steam he 
didn't say much of anything. He didn't say anything much, except 
he did tell me a little about himself. That's how 1 found out 
his name. Well, his name must have been on his badge so I would 
have found that out anyway. But, that's how I found out about he 
was a graduate of some university in Georgia. I'm not sure which. 

He left. Of course, I told the man across the hall that the 
FBI had been around asking questions about him. 

That's another stupidity of the FBI. Anybody, you know, 
would tell a neighbor, "Now look, they're watching you." Of 
course, he knew it too. 

But, what's the point to it? I made up my mind on that day 
that if the FBI ever came and asked me questions again I would 
get out my notebook and paper, and I would not answer a question 
unless I wrote down both question and answer, because Mr. Swan 
was scribbling in his notebook the whole time. 

No FBI man has ever come to see me since. [Laughter] I've 
never had the great delight of being able to say, "I'll write — " 
I told Jack this. He said, "They wouldn't talk to you then." 
I said, "Okay, they could leave." 

Levenson: That's a very good point. I must remember it. [Laughter] 

Jobs in an Art School and Discount Store 

C. Service: All right. I had decided I must have a job. I went to an agency 
and I got a job with two people, a couple, who ran a kind of 
fly-by-night art school. How they made a living I will never 
know. They paid me $1.25 an hour. 

Levenson: To do what? 

C. Service: To type — and I'm a terrible typist, but I can type if I have 
to — and to do some accounts for them and write some letters. 
They ran this art school out of the basement of an apartment 
house in Forest Hills. 

The art school got students on the GI Bill, so all its money 
was coming from the government. This couple were accredited 
people £.11 right, but it was such a shoestring operation. Even 
paying me $1.25 an hour probably was hard for them. 


C. Service: I took my lunch: I had to spend 10e on the subway each way. All 
of us were on shoestrings. But, it didn't cost me anything else. 
So, everything I made I saved for Ginny's college. 

Then in the fall of 1953 I got another job. Now, this was 
a job I really want to talk about. Have I talked about the 

C. Service: 


I hadn't worked during the summer at all because I wanted to be 
with Philip. He was home and we did take little jaunts. 

There was a kind of a discount shop very near us, and I had 
bought two or three things there, perhaps a pot and a pan. The 
owner sold costume jewelry and he sold kitchen utensils, clocks, 
watches, and so on, and anything from a catalog. A very pleasant 
man. His wife used to help him at times when he was busy. But, 
she had two girls and one of them was only four or five , and she 
really didn't like to be at the shop too much. 

I decided maybe I could get a job with this shop. The 
owner was called Mr. Paul. That's all I knew about him. I went 
in one day and I said, "Don't you want to hire me to work a few 
hours a day? I need a job and I'm looking for one in the neigh 

He looked at me and he said, "Well, I'll think about it. 
I must talk to my wife." I said, "Maybe I could do what your 
wife has been doing. I'll come back in about a week and ask 
you." So, I did and he said yes he would hire me for $1.25 an 
hour. I was to work five days a week from 10:00 o'clock to 
2:00 o'clock, which was about the hours I'd worked at the art 

This man's name was Paul Schreibman. His wife was named 
Sylvia. We became great friends. We are great friends today. 
They have a daughter here in Berkeley, and when they come to 
Berkeley we nearly always see them. We have exchanged Christmas 
greetings ever since then. 

Paul was born in Bayonne, New Jersey and has a law degree. 
She was born in Russia and was brought to this country when she 
was four years old and raised by an aunt. 


What did I do in this shop? 
I was a terrible saleswoman. 

I don't believe that. 

I tried to sell things, but 


C. Service: I was awful because I kept wondering, "Why do people want to buy 
these things?" [Laughter] Not that what Paul had wasn't just 
as good as what anybody else had, but I kept thinking, "Why 
should I try to sell them something that perhaps they didn't 
want?" I always had the feeling I should say, "Co away and 
think about it. Maybe you really don't need this pot or this 

Paul realized T wasn't a very good saleswoman. There was 
hardly ever more than one person in the shop at a time. If 
there was only one he always waited on him. I did sell a few 
things obviously. I also swept the floor sometimes. I dusted 
the shelves. I typed a few letters for him. If Paul had to go 
to the bank I was at the shop. I was sort of a handy girl. 

But, I saved all my money this time because I did not have 
to pay 20£ a day on the subway. I didn't take any lunch. I did 
sometimes but I didn't go out for a cup of coffee. I really 
saved every cent I made. At Christmas time Paul gave me twenty 
dollars which was a large sum of money as far as I was concerned. 
Wasn't Chat nice of him? 

Levenson: What was a man with a law degree doing running a variety store? 
Did you ever find out? 

C. Service: He did income taxes too. He had a pal whose name was Mr. Richman, 
I think. He was a jolly man. He and Paul set up an income tax 
business, and they did people's income taxes for five or ten 
dollars. They made quite a lot of money on this. That is not 
an exact answer, but it is the best I can do. 

I worked for Paul two years. Then, he decided to sell the 
shop. He got a job with a big real estate company in New York 
City on a commission basis. He has been successful. Now he is 
mostly retired, and he and Sylvia do a lot of traveling. They 
have been all around the world. They are trying to go to China. 
[They went to China in the spring of 1977! C.S.] I think it was 
just a stroke of luck that I worked for them. 

Levenson: Marvelous. 

C. Service: Sylvia has gone on and gotten a degree. She's very interested in 
psychology. She has helped a great deal with disadvantaged 
people, with people who have problems. Remarkable. They're 
really an American success story. 


Pollster for Louis Harris for Three Months 

C. Service: Then, after my Jobs with the art school and in the shop, and a 
year of not working, I worked for Lou Harris during the fall of 

Levenson: How interesting; the pollster, you mean? 

C. Service: Louis Harris, the pollster. He had just decided to strike out 

independently. He had been working for Roper. Louis Harris was 
married to the youngest of the Yard sisters, Jack's old friends 
from China. His wife was Florence. We met them as soon as we 
got to New York. So, I'd known Lou for several years. He said, 
did I want to be a pollster for him? I said, well, yes that 
sounded fine. 

So, I worked for him for three months. It turned out that 
I was no good at this. 

Levenson: I can't believe it. 

C. Service: Because I didn't really have any faith in what I was doing. I 
was never sure that the people were telling me the right thing. 

Levenson: Do you mean the truth? 

C. Service: Not the truth, but if what they told me was a true picture of what 
they believed. 

Levenson: Can you give me an example of the sort of question that was 
asked them? 

C. Service: All right. Well, no, I can't because I don't remember. These 
questions were mostly about products. You had a long list and 
you stopped people on the street and asked them questions. There 
were also political questions. 

I was never sure whether people really were going to vote 
for the person they told me they would, or whether, when they 
said they weren't sure, if they weren't sure. Perhaps I was 
unsure of the polls because I was unsure of myself in this job. 

Also, I didn't like it because I had to go into New York 
City. I had to be away late in the afternoon sometimes when I 
did not want to be. I wanted to be home when Philip got home 
from school. After three months I said, "Lou, I cannot work 
for you anymore. I'm not earning my money. I don't want to do 
it." He was very nice about it. And I was certainly no loss 
to him. 


C. Service: But, it's interesting to me that a job which did have, let us 

say perhaps more glamor than being in a shop — glamor in quotes — no, 
I didn't want to do it at all. I was no help to Lou really. We've 
remained great friends. It had nothing to do with our friendship. 

He offered me the job out of friendship because he knew I 
was looking for something. We saw them, Florence and Lou, in 
New York last summer. I said, "Lou, you remember when I worked 
for you?" We both had a good laugh over it. I'd like to 
interpolate here that I think polls have become greatly refined 
and perfected since the 50' s. 

One Child at Home; Two in Europe 

C. Service: Ginny had stayed in Washington. I mentioned that. Bob had gone 
to England to Magdalen College School, Oxford, and Philip was 
going to PS 99. We lived in Kew Gardens for five years. We 
lived there the whole time we were in New York. 

As I think I mentioned, it was like a strange country to 
me because for the first time in my_ life I was not a part of 
anything. I was not a part of the army, I was not a part of the 
Foreign Service, and although we did have friends around New York, 
they didn't happen to be in Kew Gardens. 


But, after a while I got used to it. Although I never really 
felt that I would become a New Yorker, I found many things about 
New York that were exciting, interesting. The museums were 
marvelous, of course. In those days my hearing was better and 
we went to the theater once in a while if we could afford it. 
On our wedding anniversary once we went dancing at the Roosevelt, 
I think to Guy Lombardo's orchestra. [Chuckle] It took us back 
to our youth, very definitely. 

The children came back for vacations. Ginny graduated in 
the half year class, January, 1953. She was not given a Foreign 
Service scholarship. Later on, as I told you, I found out that 
they had considered her but were afraid to give it to her. 

When she came to New York after graduating she got a job at 
De Pinna's for a while. My sister-in-law and brother-in-law, 
the Dick Services, were in Brussels. They had said that if Ginny 
could get to Europe she could come and visit them. Well now, Bob 
was in England. Instead of having Ginny all cooped up in an 
apartment in Kew Gardens with no friends, not a soul, nobody, 
we decided we could get her to Europe. 



July 17, 1954 

Dear Carolina: 

There la only one thing to hope for now — and that is that 
you will soon. have Jack with you ar*ain. So do not feel thrxt his 
delay is of "nj s choosing, tf such sho&d happen. 

I have always demanded certainty froa the me leal profession. 
i?ub in this case my doctor seems not able to give me a certain 
word as hs had about Dad. '.rhethsr I shall have to chase dimi^i shins 
v/its through a season, no one can give me any assurance. 
Everyone always spea"<s cheerfully , Just as they always do to sick 
people . 

Never, -never forget, Caroline, that you have a very special 
place in ray heart. IIo ucse to enumerate everything to you — for you 
are a woman and have intuition. Juat rememb-r to keep ny name 
alive with your family Just as Jack's father has been kept alive. 

Please remember me to your sisters and your i.'other. Thsy have 
alt; ays baen r*ood to me and loyal to Jack. I can say nothing 
adequate, but you can know what is in ray heart. I really owe 
letters to both Gin and Bob, because they have both written 
very n'ce letters to me recently. Tine is too short. I crm only 
r;ivo t' 8S3 letters as messages to Jack and you. Pass the love 
around until Philip understands he'll have some letters fro.n me 
latar on . 

Love to all from Mother, 


C. Service: Jack's mother contributed a little bit. She sent us a book that 
had been written by Jack's great great-grandfather about a trip 
across Mexico.* It's a rare book. It's advertised in rare book 
circles. We sold it for a hundred dollars. That helped. 

Ginny earned money. She had earned money babysitting, and 
she had done other things. She had her money from De Pinna's. 
Anyway — I don't know whether my mother gave me a little or 
not. My mother helped at various times. But, we did manage to 
scrape up the money to send Ginny to Europe in May. 

She went and stayed with Helen and Dick in Brussels and had 
a lovely, exciting time. Then, she went to England for two 
weeks and saw Bob and his school, Magdalen College School. 
Then, when the English school year broke up, in mid-July or late 
July, Bob and she met. I guess Bob came to Brussels. They took 
a bicycle trip through France for a month. 

Levenson: How marvelous. 

C. Service: Bob had already taken one in England during his spring 
vacation — 1,158.2 miles! 

Ginny and Bob took this trip together. They just went to 
youth hostels, bicycled all across and around France and finally 
ended up in Stuttgart, where the Rices [Edward and Mary] were 
stationed, and stayed with them a couple of nights, and then they 
put their bicycles on a boat and went down the Rhine and back to 
Brussels somehow. They got on a ship and came home in September. 

"Verbal" Subpoena from Cohn. September. 1953 

C. Service: Now, there's an episode there. After we had been in New York 
about a year — I think this is probably in Jack Kahn's book, 
The China Hands** — Jack had a phone call one day at Sarco, saying 
that it was Cohn speaking, a man named Cohn. Since in the steam 
trap business Jack had some dealings with a man named Cohn, he 
thought it was his steam trap friend. 

*A.B. Clarke, Travels in Mexico and California, Boston: Wright 
and Hasty, Printers, 1852. 

Kahn, op. cit. p. 269. 



C. Service: It turned out to be Roy Cohn. Roy Cohn said, "This is a verbal 
subpoena" — well, there's no such thing, it turns out — or, "a 
telephone subpoena; come right down here to the courthouse at 
Foley Square because we want to see you. Senator McCarthy 
wishes to see you." 

Jack said, "I'm not coming unless I have my lawyer with me." 
Cohn said, "Well, call him up and get him down here." Jack said, 
"My lawyer is in Washington." So, Cohn said, "Well, if that's 
the way you're going to feel, come tomorrow morning." Jack said, 
"I don't consider this a subpoena on the phone, but I'll come if 
I can get my lawyer." 

Jack told Mr. Wells, and Mr. Wells said, "I'm going to get 
my lawyer down there too." Mr. Wells was simply great. His 
lawyer was a man named Leo Rosen who became a very good friend 
of ours. He was in the firm of Greenbaum, Wolff and Ernst, Morris 
Ernst, who was very interested in civil rights. 

Jack called up Ed Rhetts. Ed Rhetts could not come up, but 
Gerry Reilly could. Now, Gerry Reilly — that Reilly name is spelled 
differently from any other way — Gerry Reilly was the partner of 
Ed Rhetts. He has since become a judge, and he has just retired. 
He is a conservative, Catholic lawyer. He is a good friend of 
Jack's, good friend of ours, and he said he would come up on the 
night train. The Idea was that everybody would meet at Foley 
Square the next morning which is where the U.S. Courthouse is in 
New York. 

Ginny and Bob were on their way back from Europe, and they 
were due to come in on the Ryndam about the seventh or eighth 
of September. This was just about a day before. When Jack told 
me of Cohn's call, all I could think of was, "What if the children 
come home and now they find — ?" and "What if Mr. Wells doesn't 
keep Jack?" Coming home to this, I could not bear it. I just 
thought it was terrible. 

So, I went down to Foley Square with Philip. It was a hot, 
sunshiny September day. We sat on a park bench in Foley Square 
and waited. Jack and Gerry Reilly and Leo Rosen had all gone in. 
About two hours later they came out, and they all were looking 
pretty jolly. They were all looking sort of amazed. 

Levenson: What had happened? 

C. Service: They had gone in and the only people at this senatorial hearing 

were McCarthy, Cohn, and [G. David] Schine. It was their committee. 
Jack's lawyer, Gerry Reilly, said [to Jack], "The minute you go 
in, say you're not there under subpoena, just say you're here of 
your own free will." 


C. Service: 

Lev en son: 
C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 
C. Service: 

So, Jack got this in before they had a chance to say a word. 
Then, Cohn and Schine, I guess, started in and asked Jack what 
his business was, what he was doing. Jack said, "I'm working," 
told them about Sarco and steam traps. They meandered along. 

Finally McCarthy, I guess, broke in. He said, "Let's get to 
the point gentlemen," or something of that sort. Now, I'm making 
up this conversation obviously, but the thing was McCarthy said 
[slapping one hand against another] , "I have here information in 
my hand that you are an agent for the Cfentral] Intelligence] 

For the CIA! 

For the CIA. Jack and his two lawyers, I guess, looked so 
dumbfounded, that I think McCarthy realized he was — this was 
when McCarthy was trying to get the CIA. He had it in for them. 
After that he turned to the army. But, at a certain point he 
was trying to get the CIA. 

It was a fishing expedition. He thought that if he could 
find out that Jack somehow had a connection with the CIA, that 
he could use this against the CIA. He was nuts! 

Well, that's what I was going to say. 

His charges against the CIA didn't last long because McCarthy 
didn't get very far with this, not only with Jack but the rest 
of it. He was after somebody in the CIA. I cannot remember what 
the circumstances were exactly. 

It sounds so stupid. 

That's right. 

Not just implausible but stupid. 

That's right. That is_ right. 

It seems that Sarco sold [steam] traps to the navy. McCarthy 
figured that maybe Jack's salary really came from the CIA and 
was hidden in the navy's payment for steam traps. 

What was Jack doing with government contracts? That was 
another thing. Jack should not be having anything to do with 
government contracts. 

I think they, Jack and his lawyers, all looked so dumbfounded 
by this that McCarthy realized that he wasn't going to find out 
anything here. So, the whole thing broke up. But, I believe 


C. Service: Mr. Wells' lawyer, Leo Rosen, said Sarco would show that the navy 
payments were bona fide payments, that there weren't any hidden 
payments to Jack. I guess that he talked with Mr. Wells. Anyway, 
nothing was ever heard from McCarthy, Cohn, or Schine again. 
This was a fishing expedition and Just an harassment, an absolute 

Confidence in the Legal System 

Levenson: I want to interrupt at this point, Caroline. You said, and you 

almost smiled, "I just couldn't bear it." Well, I can understand 
that. I can understand everything except the smile. Now, how 
did this affect you at the time? Did you lose your temper? Did 
you get depressed? Did you cry? It seems to me improbable that 
you could find it a smiling matter at the time. 

C. Service: I often cried but not at this time. This made me mad. I smile 
because I'm thinking, when I say I can't bear it, of course you 
do bear things. You bear whatever, finally, you have to bear. 

The thing that I could not stand, I thought, was to have the 
children come home to headlines, or to have Jack lose his job. 
Really the thing that got me was, "What if he loses his job? 
Where will we ever get another job? What will we have to do?" 

Of course, I don't know that I cried then, but I did weep 
many a tear during these years — sometimes from sheer rage. 
Sometimes I was just furious. I always had the sensation, "I 
want to go in and see McCarthy and tell him what I think of 
him." Well, of course, I couldn't do this. I'd already seen a 
couple of people. [Chuckle] 

But, it was a mixture of anger and disbelief and of sheer 
fear that maybe things were just never going to be right for us. 
I'm sure that I had this sensation. Well, this episode was 

Levenson: It was almost a comic opera. 

C. Service: Yes, that's right. It was ridiculous. Cohn and Schine were 

like a couple of buffoons. McCarthy was like a great oaf. He was 
a great oaf. He was a bully and an oaf. Those are the words I 
think of in connection with McCarthy, because I do not really 
think he ever believed half the things he said. Jack had this 


Levenson: In those very difficult and frightening years for you and your 

family did you maintain a confidence that Jack would be vindicated 
by legal means? Did you believe that the legal system would work 
for you? 

C. Service: I thought it would work. I did not know what the outcome would 
be, but I thought we had a fair shake in the legal system, yes. 

Levenson: In retrospect we know It worked. 

C. Service: Yes. I did not know what the outcome would be, but I thought if 
there was anyplace that we would get a fair hearing, it would be 
in the legal system. I always felt that the Supreme Court was 
above politics. Now, perhaps it has not always been so. But, I 
still feel this today, that the one place — and I think that the 
Watergate affair proved this — where you have a hope, maybe you 
will lose, maybe you won't, but where you have a hope is through 
the legal system. 

I felt it then. I feel it now. I think some of the letters 
that I've given you, perhaps I've said so in there. 

Sources of McCarthy's Popularity and Power 


C. Service: 

Do you now have any theories as to why McCarthy was for a while 
so appallingly popular and powerful? 

Yes, he said things the American public liked to hear, 
exactly what I think. 


This country has spent a great deal of its energy, since the 
early part of the century, in being terrified of Communism. We 
have frightened ourselves. Perhaps Communism is something to be 
terrified of; it has been, in the Russian form of it. But, why 
a great powerful country like the United States of America, that 
has so much going for it, and with our form of democracy which I 
do think is tremendous, why we should have let ourselves be 
bamboozled by knavish demagogues frightening us to death, I do 
not know, except that the American people wanted to believe it. 

In some ways it was like the anti-foreign sentiment against 
immigrants, against anybody and anything new coming in. Against 
change. It's the way the Japanese were treated during the war. 
They were taken off to camps. It's this feeling that foreigners 
are going to take something away from us , that the whole thing is 
a plot to destroy us. 


C. Service: But, that we should have been so fearful, so distrustful of each 
other, so easily led to turn on other Americans and accuse them 
of things — it was both sad and frightening and showed a lack of 
belief in our own institutions. 

Two Children at Oberlin 

C. Service: After this episode with McCarthy we had no more problems along 
that line. When Ginny and Bob came home from Europe Ginny went 
to college. 

Levenson: Where did she go? 

C. Service: She went to Oberlin. She wanted to go to Radcliffe, she thought, 
but she was not accepted. She was accepted at Oberlin and was 
given a scholarship for her first year. So, Ginny went there, 
and I think it was a good choice, although college was not 
altogether a happy time for her. 

Bob had his last year of high school at Forest Hills. So, 
he really went to four high schools, and Ginny went to three. 
But, Forest Hills was all right for Bob. He did well and he was 
accepted at Harvard. He also applied at Yale. They wrote him a 
letter and said, "We understand you're going to Harvard, so we're 
not going to consider you," or something like that. [Laughter] 
They simply took him off their list. 

Levenson: That's what they always do. 

C, Service: They do? I just think that they should have — They don't want 
to be turned down. Bob wasn't going to go to Yale, although he 
had applied. He didn't go to Harvard. He went to Oberlin. I 
wept a few tears then. I thought, "My goodness, here I've got 
a son who has turned down a chance to be a Harvard man!" But I 
think he made the right choice. So, Ginny and Bob were at Oberlin, 
and Philip was growing up. 

The Legal Process 

Levenson: I would like you to summarize what Jack's case was. 
he will be going into it. 

I know that 

C. Service: Jack's case was based on the fact that he had been illegally fired 
from the Department of State, and that this charge of doubtful 
loyalty — they didn't say he was disloyal; they just said there 


18, 1956 
Dearest Bruces and Hausmans: 

imSSZZSg S Sy.StiS* iS*S '/Z" *^ abo f rorireek ta 

.hill start this letter Trtthth. rt^ Tf Z'*?*™, !?"?* a . letter f . r « "Una too, 

having dinner th Frane ad 
him. But Gin finished w^rk at 
out to the QwSrSth J?^ere I 
had lunch with Gin 

Thursday night. I 
assembled relatives so couldn't meet 

tO *» station and ^on drove 
off to see 


= s-MrsM r o"" 

Edmunson who used to be m rrieTio JackXgin ^ °5 the * hetts * ^anund 
Ifccle Yfes, who joined noSeTa^L, Sd^led ^n £ ^ °J Ach r° n>S ^ P ar 
observers from the Justice Dept ried men wiio may have been reporters or 

case going to court I S LcuL £ SjS Se S^ ^H 311 ^ ^ PaP6r ab ° Ut ^ 

three judges walked in, TO all stool uT thl iS^S"' Shalp ^ the strofcli °^ tno the 

^a^ced in no one kne* ^ d ^ Sat dCTrm - Until 

I asked Ed. They were a usc 

Washington. Tib me they all looked 

medium height, grey ° 

least in tL il£S 

to present his case. Ed stted off 

Jor me to hear because 

JbwBver I had read both 

kr. licQuiness tal'-ed for -ibout 

that Jack wasn't firedfo? either 
as said at the tijne. He was fi 
ills at that ti*e ailoweTSe Sd 

that is .not. the reason that 
decide whether or not 
Both Acheson and Hur^ 
y the Loyalty Review Board 
fir. Acheson also r^kes a 
^Lthout going over any o 
Ed Ehetts gave a lolLute 
to be allovred to say a few 

T ,, 

^ * knCW tin ^^Tards imen 
Bastian > «nd a Justice George 
and Ttreedle-Doe- 

rotund ^^t 
^ °inutes in rrhich 

° about 35 ^^tes. It was very h 


what they 
^asons even tho that is what 

at will. Of cours/Je 
the judges Trill 
reason given now, V/hc 
Jack was f ire3 only „, 
> oxioted in the brief, 
fired Jack on his own voli 
do this. Again who knows? 

ir faces were conolete 
have an idoa that occasio 
the things they ^t t 
really knew very much seo 

have to go home and really read thTbrieS 

S and P r °P er > 
inlclinK ** to 


but I 

that they 


C. Service: was a doubt— and that this was an illegal procedure because he 
had been cleared so many times, again and again and again and 
again and that the Loyalty Review Board should have had no 
jurisdiction to reverse a favorable decision. Eventually this 
was what the Supreme Court said, that the Loyalty Review Board 
had no jurisdiction, they had no right to do it, that Jack had 
been illegally fired, that Jack had never been out of the State 
Department. This was the basic thing about it, that the whole 
proceeding was illegal. 

Jack was one of the lucky people because after a while the 
State Department changed the rules so you could be fired for 
anything and then nobody could take his case to court. They 
changed the State Department rules. 

The Supreme Court said that the State Department had to 
follow its own rules which it had set up, and which in Jack's 
case they did not do. After that they found out they'd better 
not have any rules so they could fire people for anything, truly. 
Since then I think things have been reversed again. They have to 
have some legal system. 

When we left Washington in the fall of 1952— Jack had already 
been in New York — Jack came down and he and Ed Rhetts got the 
first brief together to go into the district court. This ground 
through the courts until the next summer. I think that the 
decision there was that Jack could not be reinstated, but I'm not 
sure just what the exact decision was. So, Ed Rhetts appealed it 
to the next court, to the court of appeals. 

The court of appeals — 1956 — said that the Loyalty Review 
Board was wrong, and that all these findings about doubtful 
loyalty and so on should be expunged from the record, but that 
the court could not order reinstatement. 

Anyway, who knows whether everything has ever been expunged? 
Who knows? We've never found out. Jack never asked. The finding 
was that Jack could not be dismissed on those grounds, but the 
court did not have the authority to order his reinstatement. 

So, the next thing Jack and Ed had to do was appeal to the 
Supreme Court for reinstatement. Now to appeal something to the 
Supreme Court is a very expensive business. 


June l£j 
Dearest ^ioa: If tkic Totter is not cheerful you can undersold 

1 couldn't concjwora-oo onyrioro yesterday onw~:,in;- co suit you r poci, card in- 
BjAjad. -incu t»on I h-.vo road the court opinion an'< it ooonc leac Dorjicol Van 
ever. Itoey quoyo Achoson as sryin- in hie rmdavit that "I that de torn. 1 nation 
solely^s the result f the finding of the Loyalty -^cvicw Heard and as a reST <£ 

j' roviev; ox the opinion of that J>o;..rd 1 did not ra!:e any independent deter=ina- 

•cion of my am r>.s to whether on the evidence submitted before those boards there 
was reasonable doubt as to I*. Service's loyalty. I i*de no independent judgment 

™.,± ^ Ord " n h t r is Case ;r- T:" ^ the OUrt S0es on to H/ that this didn't 
mn.ooer anytrayj -chat unoer the IfcCarren iftder "plaintiff could have been surraril/ 
disrn.ssedj,-ohout notice of charges, hearing, or appeal." It strikes ma that this 
rj.108 rLgfto m the face of the *ourtoenth Anendnent which says in part: "No State 
snail m^ce or enforce any law which shan abridge the privileges c* Jbrromities 
?^ C Ii 1ZeliS ° f thc Uni " ted States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
-u.tyerty, or properlg, vd.thout due process of lav;; nor deny -to any person r/ithin 
its 3un.sdic-M.on the equal protection of the lavra." I sup-.ose this appjlos to 
U. 5 ? laws too, and i can't see where there is any "due process" in a~ summary 
casi-ussal without charges, hearing or appeals." At the end the-e is a lic-tle note 
attached, to ivit: "It is only fair to add that siirce the finding of the ^eview 

° a 5r ^ a "JS 11 ^* ^ since a PP el lant's discliarge is sustained'only under 
.nolle Law loo, tao fallowing quotation from note 2 in "Sfaher V. V/eeks sun-ra vmiin 
seem eqiuOly amicable in this case: «It should be uotedTt^erHSt S^he 
case at bar appellant's discharge carries no implication that he ni "ht be either 

t %§S2kx2%$ seourity risk. ' » All fine and beautiful, but f ouV years too late. 

"V?: ^ Jfamation of charac-ber and all the anguish we've been subjected too 

\ an these years, rfish I had a dollar for 4fcL the times I've read in the papers and 

, various magazines that Jack was fired because of "a douot of his loyalty." 'And 
nor: to blandly have the government contend that this wasn't the so-called reason 
a u all is pretty thick. Uaybe we should be greatful for the testinonial to 

j unDlemishod c.iaracter given above. Jack is going to appeal to the Supreme C our t. 
they hold that anything at all can be done under rublic Law 168 then I don't 

i see Jack's winning. On the other hand I don't believe that 2tnsjae±H2XJCfccj±33oaac 

I O»^ l^\ Vl *-l T fwmrn *+. T _ J T . . I . <». _. •"•Q^"W"*****^W*^*<T-«-'* 

In i/iiich ce.i;- lie slicvld 

such a law, completely contravening Due Process, can be right. 

T.^r the flbwl decision. But who knows.' Anyway it will go on another year or so 
and in Oie meantime vre will stay right here in Kew Gardens. }^aybo someday we'll do 
some traveling again and take that trip to Europe I dream about. Of late I've found 
ignore and noro difficult to be content in Kew Gardens. Poor Jack— this -5s another 
Diooer pill to STrall/ow, but he manages to remain rore calm and philosophical than 

to. A lot of it is tied up with my longing for a change of scene and „ no-.~e 
interesting and exciting life. 

That is enough of our woes and problems. The reunion could not hav« be~n 
happier rnd rare fun. (lt n glad this decision wasn't out before then so it did not 
mar our pleasure.) V/e had five days of absolutely perfect v;eat;ier. The Wow Yorfc 

mptte goes thru magnificent rolling country and thru the Kbhank valley, a windittfi 
OK uil waoer.tiy carrying considerable river traffic. iYe arrived at Niagara about 

in one ai oernoon and spent about an hour on -the American side whifta Piiilip 
c.pniied rain togs nnd went with the group to look at the foot oT the falls. That is 
-.1*10 del?.ye:T om- crossing to the abnEctem Canadian side till shortly after five. 
JU.TO as we started across the bridge Jack looked back toward 'the Arcericsn side and 


Fund for Legal Expenses 

Levenson: How did you finance these very expensive legal proceedings? 

C. Service: John Reid, an Oberlin friend and tax lawyer, offered his services 
to set up a fund to help Jack with legal expenses. I believe 
this included the Foreign Service contributions. I don't know 
exactly how much was raised — between three and five thousand 
dollars, I think. 

We have never known who contributed — with a few exceptions. 
As I wrote to Lisa [Green], March 22, 1952. 

Please thank Marshall for his contribution to 
the fund. You too Lisa. I believe that everyone 
is getting a receipt or something of that sort 
from John Reid. And I don't know that Jack is 
being told who all the contributors are — at least 
for the present. I believe that the idea is 
that if he is ever asked by any committees 3 etc. 
he could say he did not know and would not be 
forced to give out lists of people who had 
helped him. So if you ever hear of anyone who 
wonders why Jack has not acknowledged a donation 
in person you can tell them the reason why. 

Ed Rhetts did most of his work for nothing. There were certain 
secretarial jobs that had to be paid for and for which the fund 

John Reid did this all without any reimbursement. He took 
charge of the fund and he made the disbursements when they were 

I think a lot of the fund went into the Supreme Court case , 
because briefs had to be printed. I think there had to be some 
thing like twenty-five copies. It's an expensive process. 

Ed Rhetts did not charge us for his labors and work, and 
neither did the other lawyers. Eventually they were paid. But, 
this was by good fortune. 

We sometimes paid a little money, when we could, four or 
five hundred dollars or something like that, if we could pay. 
But, we were trying to pay back debts too. 

We had a friend named Craine, an Oberlin friend, Lyle Craine. 
His wife, Asho, was the daughter of a wealthy woman, Marian 
Ingersoll. Asho and Lyle loaned us $1,000 twice — perhaps three 
times — which we did pay back. 


C. Service: I like to think we paid back everything. The Reids, John and 
Peggy, gave us $3,000 when we were fired. They gave Jack a 
check for $3,000. This we did not ever pay back because it was 
a gift. 

I have a friend named Delia Tyrwhitt, a widow, a most 
amazing person, who loaned me $1,000 on my own. 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 

I did not tell Jack about this. Actually 1 wanted some of it to 
pay back something else. Delia gave it to me. I do not believe 
she ever expected to be reimbursed. But, this was on my mind 
very strongly. Well, a year and a half ago — Delia comes to visit 
us nearly every year — she was here and I said, "Delia, I am now 
going to pay you back that money," because I had gotten some 
money from my mother's estate. I didn't ever want to pay it back 
out of something that belonged to Jack because this was my own 

She said, "I don't want that money back." 1 said, "You're 
going to have to have it back, because I'm determined to pay it 
back." Well, we finally had a compromise. I paid her back 
$500. Of course, interest never entered into these things. The 
other $500 I gave to various wildlife projects. Delia is keen 
on conservation. I said, "If you won't take it all, I'm going 
to give it to the Audubon Ranch and some other places." She said, 
"Fine, you do that." [Chuckle] So, in this way Delia got back 
$500, which she, I think, immediately turned around and gave to 
other conservation causes. 

But, I'm sure there are places where we did not pay every 
thing, such as the fund, back; but we did what we could. I'm glad 
we were able to, although many of the people would have been 
quite happy if we had not. 

Service vs. Dulles. Reinstatement by the United States Supreme 
Court. June 17, 1957 

C. Service: To return co the 1950' s. On November 13, 1956, we learned by 
telephone call that the Supreme Court had accepted Jack's case. 
They have to vote on what they'll accept, and if they vote against 
accepting a case then that is that. It's finished. The case 
goes no further. 


If the Supreme Court had not taken it we still would have 
had the reversal in the court of appeals that Jack had been 
fired unfairly, and that the ruling of "doubtful loyalty" must be 
expunged. But, we never would have gotten back into the State 
Department . 


C. Service: Now, for us it was extremely important that we win this case. 
We had lived with this for so long, so many years, ever since 
1945. We wanted to vindicate ourselves, we wanted our name 
cleared. We wanted to be back in the Foreign Service. We just 
felt, both of us, that this was of vital importance to us. And 
we wanted and needed a pension from the State Department for all 
the years in the Foreign Service. It had been our life. 

Many people were surprised that we did go back when the case 
was won. I do not think they realized what winning this case 
meant to us . 

The thirteenth of November happens to be one of our wedding 
anniversaries. The other is November 9th. So, we had a little 
celebration and we called my mother. Jack's mother had died in 
1954. She did not live to know Jack's vindication, but she never 
lost faith in him. She was a most remarkable woman. I cannot say 
enough about her, how much I admired her. I think in many ways — 
Well, Jack was her oldest son and my own parents' son-in-law. So, 
for her it was even a harder tribulation than for them. 

Since the Supreme Court had accepted Jack's case in November 
of 1956, we knew that they would decide it by the end of the 
court year [June, 1957]. Ed Rhetts was finally given a date in 
early April to plead the case. 

The older children were home from college as it was during 
their spring vacation. We all went down to Washington, Philip 
and Ginny and Bob and Jack and I. Helen and Dick [Service] were 
in Washington, and we stayed with them. They were living in the 
house we both owned. 

The Greens were in Washington. Now, these letters that 
you have been reading have been addressed to Lisa Green for the 
most part. They came to the Supreme Court. The sessions are 
open to the public. They came to the hearing. 

Then, Connie Green,* Marshall's sister-in-law, had a small, 
little, nice, old house right behind the Supreme Court building. 
We asked Connie if, when the hearing was over, if we could ask 
our friends to come over to her house and we'd bring some drinks 
and have a little party there. We wouldn't know whether we had 

*Constance McLaughlin Green. She won the Pulitzer Prize in 
history in 1963 for her Washington; Village and Capital. 1800-1878. 


C. Service: won or lost, but we would like to come over there. Connie nobly 
opened her house to us, and I think about twenty of our friends 
including all our children went over and had a party at her 

The Supreme Court hearing itself was a most solemn affair. 
Levenson: Were you afraid? 

C. Service: No, I just thought — At this point I just thought Jack would win, 
that Ed Rhetts would. I just could not conceive that he wouldn't. 
Ed did a superb job. He had fifty minutes. The government lawyer 
was very weak. I don't mean as a person. I don't think he had 
a good case. I'm not even sure his heart was in it. It was a 
very routine pedestrian presentation of why Jack should not be 
reinstated in the State Department and why the verdict should be 
left as the appellate court had decided. 

Levenson: That was the Warren court, wasn't it? 

C. Service: Yes, it was the Warren court, Earl Warren, 
list of the justices. 

Someplace, I have a 

There was [Felix] Frankfurter. [William 0. ] Douglas was on 
it. It was a liberal court, obviously. [William J.] Brennan 
was the new man on it, and there was Hugo Black. He was 
marvelous — Black and Frankfurter both. Then there were [Harold H. ] 
Burton, [Charles E.] Whittaker, and [John M. ] Harlan. 

There were only eight justices on Jack's court because Tom 
Clark took himself off because he had been attorney general during 
the Amerasia case. So, he abstained. So, this was an eight man 
court which could have meant a four-four decision perhaps, which 
would have left the decision as the court of appeals had decided. 

When it was all over and we were talking about it, I said I 
thought it ought to be a six-two decision in Jack's favor. I 

Just recently, October 1977, I found a letter written to my 
mother April 4, 1957, telling of the Supreme Court hearings. 
I had forgotten that Ed Rhetts presented his case to the court 
on the late afternoon of April 2. It was after this session 
that we went to Connie Green's. The government lawyer, 
Mr. MacGuineas, presented his case at noon on April 3. We 
were present at this hearing too, returning to New York 
immediately after it. C.S. 


C. Service: don't know what Jack said. We did not think it would be unanimous. 
There were one or two people who hadn't said anything and whom 
we knew were very conservative. 

This was early April. We knew that the court finished in 
June sometime. But, from about the middle of May on, every 
Monday, which is Supreme Court decision day, we would listen to 
see what was happening — nothing. 

June came. Ginny came home from Oberlin. Bob had come 
home, and he was on his way west with a bunch of boys to work 
in the west. 

Finally June 17, [1957], rolled round. [Opens envelope with 
sheaf of letters.] I'm going to read something from this letter 
to Lisa in Washington. I'm going to give you this letter, of 
course, to type. I have June 17. My habit is often to put a 
piece of paper in the typewriter and then put the date and then 
maybe I won't write right away. But, this way I get letters 

Dearest Lisa, 

It is really June 19 ^ now, but I am go-ing to 
leave the historic date in the Service family at 
the top of this letter. It is a date that is 
going to be circled in red in my mind for the 
rest of my life. I will try to recollect my 
thoughts in some coherent form to write this 
short note to you. 

Shall I read a little more? 
Levenson: Sure. 

C. Service: Thank you. This tells it better than I can say it now. 


That's Ginny. 

— went to Philadelphia for the weekend getting 
back about noon Monday. She had a two o'clock 
appointment to have a wisdom tooth out, so I 
decided I wouldn't turn on the news until we 
got back from that. There usually isn't any 
Supreme Court news till the three or four 
o'clock broadcasts. 


C. Service: But at twenty to two, just oa Gin and I 

were about to go out the door, the phone rang, 
and a man said he Das calling from the United 
Press, I literally held my breath. The man 
oould hardly get the words out for stuttering. 
Whether he too was excited or whether he 
naturally stutters I will never know. After 
a few agonizing seconds he managed to say that 
the Supreme Court had just announced an 8-0 
decision in "your husband 's favor. " 

You cannot imagine how I — I cannot even to this day say 
how I felt about it, except, as though I were transported to 
another world. 

I let my breath out, and Gin could see 
by the expression on my face that it was 
joyful news. I thanked the man and gave 
him Jack 's phone number which is what he 

So, I heard before Jack did. 

Then I tried to call my mother and sister ; 
but no one was home but my quite deaf aunt. 
However, I did manage to shriek loudly enough 
for her to understand that Jack had won. 

Then we— 
That's Ginny and I. 

— rushed out of the apartment and were only 
fifteen minutes late for the dentist appoint 
ment. Tooth was out in a whisk and we were 
back home shortly after three. 

We heard the news on the four o 'clock 
broadcast, and from then the phone began 
to ring and didn't stop before midnight. 
Dear old Ludden — 

That's Ray Ludden who had also been in China, of course. 

— phoned from Germany. He'd been listening 
to a German broadcast. 

Levenson: Good gracious. It was international news. 


C. Service: Yes — right — oh yes, it went all around the world because Jack 
had been in the news so much. It was an important case. 

Morgan Slay tan phoned. He was -in New York 
for just one day and was riding from the station 
to his hotel, and the taxi radio was on, so he 
heard the news. 

Well, then I go on. People came out and so on. 

The [Gunnar] Jarrings sent us some beautiful 
red roses. 

Now, that's Mrs. Gunnar Jarring — wife of the then Secretary 
General of the UN — she sent us some beautiful red roses and she 
phoned. The Jarrings lived right across the street from me in 
New Delhi and we had become good friends. 

Mrs. [Joseph} Stilaell phoned Jack from 

By this time TV was on, and Jack was on TV. The TV people went 
to Sarco and they did an interview. You see, five years before 
there hadn't been any TV news but now there was. 

Jack had got home about seven t looking like 
the viator returning from a long, tough battle. 
The day was boiling hot, and what with the 
television cameras beating on him in the late 
afternoon and then the subway ride, he was 
dripping with sweat. 

Philip watched TV and called UB when a news 
broadcast was on. Jack looked fine in one of 
them, but in another his eyes were black. But, 
that may have been our TV set. 

[Laughter] We had a very punk little TV set. 

Anyway, I thought he looked wonderful, and I 
liked what he said. Yesterday we managed to 
pull ourselves together a little, although 
the phone continued to ring both here and in 
Jack's office, and lots of telegrams came in. 

Then I ask her if she'll please thank somebody for theirs, and I 
go on about these people. 

J could not help thinking of five and a half 
years ago when Jack was fired. Then the phone 
rang constantly too, and letters and telegrams 


C. Service: came. But, all woe sadness and grief t and 

we felt ae though a blockbuster had been 
dropped on ua. Jack and I eat in Ed Rhetts ' 
office, and there seemed no place to go and 
nothing more to do, just oa though we hod 
gone down a large bladk hole. But, right 
then, Ed said he woe going to try to take 
the oase to oourt. I think at that moment 
he was the only person who thought there 
was even a ghost of a ghost of a chance 
that a oase oould be gotten into oourt or 
that someday it would win. I know I didn't. 
At that time I did not. Ed has been 
magnificent. I often wonder how we would 
have managed all these years without the 
love and confidence and help of our friends 
and family. Before you get this you. will 
have seen or talked with Jack, 

I guess Jack had gone to Washington. 

I haven't even read the court opinion, as 
Jack took it to Washington with him. 

Yes, he did. 

Just what happens now we don't know. I 
am sure the State Department doesn't either. 
I can't help but wickedly hope that they 
are scratching their respective heads. 
[Laughter} They must have thought they'd 
never see Jack again. We may go on trapping 
steam forever, but I should think there 'd 
have to be some kind of technical reinstate 
ment in any case. Then, I suppose that 
Jack 's career could be terminated in 
whatever way is going these days. But, 
nothing can be done the way it was before. 
Lisa, do write me any opinions pro and con 
which you may glean on this subject. 

Then, I thank her for their phone call. 
Levenson: It's like a fairy tale. 

C. Service: That was written right after the decision. So, this really 

shows the way I was feeling. It just still seems in some ways 
a miracle, although now I think it couldn't have been any other 


C. Service: Jack did go back to the State Department, because the Supreme 
Court said he had never been out. They had no choice but to 
take him back. I think they, the State Department people, were 
dumbfounded. I don't mean in a bad way, but they really were as 
struck dumb as anybody could be. [Chuckle]* 

Clement Wells, the Sarco Stock, and the Improved Steam Trap 

C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 

Jack stayed with the steam trap people until September, [1957], 
because at this point they were selling Sarco International, which 
had been Jack's particular job, to an English firm, Spirax, in 
Cheltenham. Jack took part in the negotiations. Have we got a 
little more time? 

Oh, yes. 

I must talk a little about Sarco. Mr. [Clement] Wells had 
retired from Sarco about two or three years before, but he kept 
Sarco International. He held all the stock. But, he had decided 
to sell the stock in the main Sarco Company to a certain number 
of people in the company of whom Jack was one. 

Jack got one eleventh for $5,000. We did not have $5,000. 
We borrowed $5,000 from Priscilla Silber, Priscilla and Fritz 
Silber. Now, Priscilla was one of Jack's old friends from his 
childhood days in West China, the daughter of Jack's mother's 
oldest friend, Mabelle Yard. 

Priscilla and Fritz said they would loan Jack $5,000 to buy 
the Sarco stock. We were able to pay it back a year later, after 
Jack's mother died and her estate was settled. I think we paid 
Ed Rhetts something at that time. We were able to pay back 
Priscilla and Fritz. In this case we did pay interest because 
that had been the agreement. Priscilla and Fritz immediately put 
the interest that we gave them into John Reid's fund. So, they 
did not make any interest on it which is too bad. But, we did 
pay off that and we did pay various other things. 

Anyway, I won't say anymore about Sarco but the sale of 
this stock was what was going finally to give us the financial 
independence to leave the Foreign Service in a few more years 
when we saw we had no future there. But, that is a further 
story. I wanted to put in this part about how Jack got the stock. 

See Appendix 4 for complete letter. 


C. Service: I should also say that what helped make the stock so valuable 
was Jack's Improved steam trap. When Jack began to fiddle 
around with the steam trap to see if he could improve on 
it — because that's really what he did — he didn't so much invent 
a new one as Improve on an old theory. 

Levenson: Build a better mousetrap? 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

Yes, exactly. He read a great many books and he wanted to have a 
working model made to test his ideas. 

In New York, through our friends Roger and Harriet Clapp, 
we had become good friends with Mary and Midge [Ernst Leland] 
Midgette. Jack took his problems to Midge, and he thought that 
they could make a working model and test it. Midge made it or 
had it made in his machine shop. They tested it and it worked. 
But the trap had to belong to Sarco because Jack worked for 
Sarco, and Sarco was able to patent it. They were able to 
patent it because it was different enough from any existing 
steam trap to be patented. 

I believe it has to qualify as an invention rather than a 

I guess so. But, anyway, this did prove of great value to Sarco. 
This made a great deal of difference in our life. It made a 
great deal of difference in the value of Sarco. 

At Sarco there was a woman named Ruth Greenfield. She was 
an enormous help to Jack when he arrived. She had worked for 
Mr. Wells for years and years and years. When Mr. Wells formed 
Sarco International Ruth went there with Jack. Then when Jack 
went back to the Foreign Service Ruth Greenfield took over Sarco 
International herself, and she did a fine jpb. And she continued 
in charge when it was sold to the English company. Ruth and we 
have remained great friends. 

Before we leave New York I'd like to say a little about our 
summers there. I didn't work because I wanted to do things with 
Philip. We were lucky to have friends who asked us to visit. 
Nancy and Hugh Clark — friends of my girlhood — asked us to stay with 
them on the Eastern Shore (Maryland), several times. Barbara 
Morris, an Oberlin and New York friend, asked us to visit her in 
her cabin in Vermont. We visited the Lakings in Maine. One 
summer Philip spent two months in Beloit with the Gages. Ginny 
spent one summer with my mother in Berkeley. Bob worked one 
summer for Sarco, Canada, and lived with my Uncle Harry in Toronto. 


C. Service: Then one summer Bob, Philip and I drove to California. Bob 

worked as a forester, near Chester, a job gotten him by Jack's 
brother, Bob. In late July of that same summer we had a Service 
family reunion in Chester and Berkeley — Jack, his brothers, their 
wives, and all of our children — the only time we've ever managed 

Two other families I want to mention. Patricia and Denis 
Dunlop , in the New Zealand foreign service, had Jack stay with 
them as well as with the Gladieux, for several weeks when he 
first moved to New York. And one summer Philip and I stayed 
with them near Cape Ann, Massachusetts. 

Then the Hunts, Callie and Sam Hunt. We had known them in 
San Francisco through the Sanders. By the time we moved to 
New York they were in New Haven. Sam, a practicing psychoanalyst, 
was connected with the Yale Medical School. They asked us to 
New Haven for our first New York Thanksgiving — and we stayed the 
whole weekend! After that we visited them once or twice a 
year — both summer and winter. 

And at least once a year we visited Carol and Dick Smith in 
Bristol, Connecticut. Carol is Jack's first cousin, but I had 
not known her before. 

All of these friends, and others too, made it possible for 
us to get out of New York sometime during the summer; this was 
greatly appreciated, especially because of Philip. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 



[Interview 8: November 23, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

Back to Washington 

C. Service: We moved back to Washington in September, 1957. Jack was back in 

the State Department. He was given a job which meant nothing — moving 
furniture overseas. 

Levenson: Oh dear! 

C. Service: Because they were not going to put him in anything sensitive 

of any description. He did have to go through another security 
hearing. Our main hope at this time was that he could stay in 
till he was fifty years old when he would qualify for a pension. 

We had two years in Washington and Jack was put through 
another clearance. He had many hearings, and I'm not sure whether 
it was when we first went back or the next spring or whenever. 

One of the men on the board was a man named Otto Otepka. 
Now, Otto Otepka was a very right-wing person. I think he would 
have liked to get rid of Jack. 

We heard later — we didn't know this at the time — that Otto 
Otepka was all for firing Jack again. He himself was finally fired 
for leaking various things to congressional committees. [Chuckle] 
He had a very tough time in the long run. I've never felt much 
sympathy for him though. 

In any event the other two men cleared Jack. It was a three-man 
board. Then Mr. Henderson — 

Levenson: What was his position? 


C. Service: 


C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 

Loy Henderson was then the highest ranking career Foreign Service 
officer in the State Department — a career ambassador. 

Jack passed this last clearance. In other words Mr. Henderson 
went over the whole thing, and his decision was that Jack was not 
a security risk. There was no doubtful loyalty. But, it was obvious 
Jack was not going to get much of a job. 

Jack could not be sent overseas until he was cleared. When 
he was cleared it was decided to send him to Bonn, Germany. Then 
the Bonn orders were cancelled. 

Finally it was decided to send Jack to Liverpool, England, 
to a consulate, but without the title of consul-general, because 
the consul-general title had to be approved by the Senate at least 
once, and this had never been done. Consular titles need Senate 

I heard later from a friend that the reason the Bonn orders 
were cancelled was because John Davies had been in Bonn, and 
John Davies was fired in 1954 because of Nixon. Nixon was the 
one who really was determined he should get out. John had been 
having a terrible time. But, the Bonn government simply didn't 
want another person to come that they could not accept wholeheartedly. 
They had had enough, I guess, of China people who'd been sent there 
to get them out of the way. 

So, those orders were cancelled. Jack had been trying to 
learn some German. One thing he learned was, "Wo istder Bahnhof?" — 
which turned out to be very helpful once when we were traveling 
in Germany. [Laughter] Where's the station? 

Could we just stop there for the moment? I'd like to ask you 
some questions. Apart from Otto Otepka, how were you received 
back in Washington? 

Ah, yes, all right. Now, I'd like to say that everybody, all our 
friends, were overjoyed. In fact people who did not know us, had 
not known us before, came up and said nice things to us and 
congratulated us. We were asked to cocktail parties, and so on, 
by people we barely knew simply as a gesture of goodwill and to 
say they were glad we were back. 

This was during a Republican administration. 

This was during Eisenhower, yes. Yes, but I don't think people 
thought in those terms. I think they were wholeheartedly — aside 
from two or three people, maybe five if I had to think of them — 
I think that the Foreign Service was genuinely happy about our 
return, not only because of us, but because of the Foreign Service, 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 

C. Service: 


C. Service: 
C. Service: 

because this firing for doubtful loyalty was a blemish on the 
Service too. After that they didn't use that. They just fired 
people. I think the Foreign Service had felt as though it were 
something against them too as well as Jack. 

We had no difficult experiences when we came back. 
Jack did. I don't know. 

I'll ask him. 


But, I did not, aside from the one woman who came up to me — and 
she did It in a goodhearted way — to say that she was sorry they 
couldn't give Virginia a scholarship. She was saying that she 
herself had wanted to give the scholarship, I think! 

The whole experience was a good one. 
years in Washington. 

We had two very good 

During the years of the repeated security hearings and clearances 
and then the eventual dismissal, were you personally ostracized 
at any time in Washington or in New York? 

I don't think that I personally was ever ostracized, nor Jack. 
I would say people who didn't know us at all would not have 
wanted to meet us. You might call that ostracism. I don't know. 

No, that's not what it is. 

We had one experience and it shall be nameless. It was not anyone 
in the Foreign Service. It was an old friend, and she told me 
that her husband would not allow us to come to their house. The 
breach has since been healed and the episode is never mentioned. 

I would like to ask a question at this point. I remember when 
E.J. Kahn was talking about the book, The China Hands, and he 
made a general comment that there was no point in talking to the 
wives because they said nothing but good about their husbands! 
You have generally presented a picture of continuing smooth 
relations between yourself and Jack — 


— through all these very, very troubled years. 


I want to know whether that was really how it was, because it 
seemed to me that it must have been a time of enormous tension 
and fear and worry. 


C. Service: Yes, but the tensions between Jack and me, which still exist — 1 
mean the same tensions still exist — are more tensions of person 
ality. I did have many a fight with Jack, and I sometimes 
criticized him unmercifully, but there was never any feeling 
that our lives were not linked together to such an extent that 
they could ever part. 

Divorce was never in my mind. I would never have considered 
getting a divorce and leaving Jack, never, regardless of what 
happened. It just never has been something 1 would do. 

Jack and I are very dissimilar people, and we still have 
fights. I mean Jack and I can have a riproaring argument but over 
personal things, much more than over anything that's happened to 
us. Jack really does not like to fight or argue, but I have a 
very quick temper at times — when I feel I 'm being put down — and 
then I blow up. 

We have vast areas of agreement. We usually think alike in 
our political life. I would say we're both liberal, somewhat to 
the left but not very far to the left. We're both registered 
Democrats. Religiously we have no problems. Jack, if anything, 
is a little religious and I'm not. He has a feeling for religion 
which I do not have. When it comes to the children we've always 
pretty much agreed. We really haven't had any big problems in 
any of these fields. 

Our tensions are — They're very picayunish many of them. 
I certainly didn't always agree with the way things were running 
with the case, because I wanted something more done. I'd sometimes 
say, "Why don't you jdo something? Why doesn't Ed Rhetts d£ 
something?" They were doing all they could. I didn't understand 
how slow it would be. I would sometimes be frantic. 

I sometimes couldn't stand the publicity in the papers, 
although actually Jack had a very good press. But, sometimes I 
just thought I just couldn't stand it. 

You asked the other day, why did I smile when I said something. 
I think I was smiling because it sounds so melodramatic to me now. 
Much that I'm saying, as I look back, I think, "Why was I so 
impatient? Why didn't I understand things better?" 

Levenson: Did the press invade your personal life? 

C. Service: No, not really. It was before the days of instant television, 
basically. In fact, the press never came to see me. 

Levenson: That's interesting. 


C. Service: Never — They were going on the theory that Jack Kahn did: there 
is no use talking to wives. [Chuckle] 

Levenson: That's very different from what happened in Watergate. 
C. Service: Yes. 

Levenson: You commented to me at the time about how sorry you were for the 
wives and families of those people. 

C. Service: Yes, right, and for the parents. 

Three Very Happy Years in Liverpool. 1959-1962 

C. Service: In the fall of 1959 we were going to Liverpool, England. By this 
time Bob had graduated from college, and he was going to Princeton. 
He had been accepted at the Woodrow Wilson School for graduate 
study with a full scholarship, so there was no financial problem 
there . 

Ginny had got a job in Washington. Now, Ginny had been in 
and out of college. Ginny had had a hard time. Of all our 
children she had the toughest time. She did get her Oberlin 
degree, delayed, but with the class of 1957 and she and a friend 
got a little apartment in Georgetown and moved in there. She 
had a job with the National Gallery of Art, as she'd taken much 
art history at Oberlin. 

So, only Philip went to Liverpool. He and Jack went off 
in September. Philip went to Liverpool College when he got 
there, which was the local public school, mostly day pupils and 
a few boys who boarded. I came later after I'd packed up the 
furniture and shipped it off. 

I landed in England on October 1, 1959, It was an absolutely 
beautiful day. I had never been in England before. I felt in 
many ways as though I were coming home, because of all the 
English literature I'd read. It looked green, of course, but 
also very low lying. Southampton — there were no hills around. 
I hadn't expected that. I didn't expect it to look quite so what 
I call tropical, but it did. 

Jack met me and we went to Oxford and spent the night with 
Sam and Belle Griffith, our old and dear friends from Peking days. 
Sam was there getting a Ph.D. at Oxford. He was at New College. 

We had three very happy years in Liverpool, 
say this again and again. 

I'll probably 


Levenson: Let's just site Liverpool. It's in, as I recall, northwestern 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

England, cotton manufacturing area, ugly industrial city, 
my impression of it. 


That's right. But, it's nice. It's on Merseyside. It's on the 
Mersey River and it is a port. Liverpool's great heyday was in 
the last century, Victorian — Liverpool is a Victorian city. The 
charter came from King John a long way back in 1200 something, 
but basically the discovery of America — One of the fascinating 
things in Liverpool is in Sefton Park. There's a statue of 
Columbus. Did I tell you this? 


I thought to myself, "Why in heaven's name would Liverpool have 
a statue of Columbus?" The reason was given in the inscription, 
which read, "Columbus, the discoverer of the New World, and the 
maker of Liverpool." I find that fascinating. Because of the 
[American] trade Liverpool became a great, booming port. It was 
the port that was used until Southampton was developed. The 
Cunard Lines head office was still in Liverpool, and in fact, in 
the last century, right up to the First World War, practically 
all transatlantic passengers from England went from Liverpool. 

That's where I left from in 1949. 

Yes, well Liverpool is a city full of character. It has some 
beautiful buildings. An absolutely elegant town hall built 
around 1750 or 1760 by John Wood, a famous English architect. 
The Blue Coat Chambers there are beautiful. They're Georgian and 
Regency. What they have of Georgian and Regency is fine, extremely 
fine. But, the main building in the city is Victorian, except now 
it's becoming modern. 

Hawthorne House 

C. Service: The American government owned a lovely house. Here we were in 
this lovely house which had very large and beautiful gardens. 
Did I say this last time? 

Levenson: No. No. 

C. Service: There was a beautiful formal garden and behind that, hidden behind 
a brick wall, was a great big kitchen garden. We had all kinds 
of things growing: endless rhubarb — rhubarb never stopped growing, 
and I love rhubarb but Jack doesn't — brussel sprouts and things 


C. Service: like new potatoes and raspberries and strawberries and currants 

and other things that came along, vegetables in the summer, Swiss 
chard, beans, all kinds of good things. 

The house had steam heat. It was built in the mid-thirties, 
by an English couple. The house had been built on the site of an 
old Victorian house which had been torn down, but they had kept 
part of the original basement. So, this basement could be used 
for dances, and we had a ping pong table down there. We had parties 
there New Year's Eve and various other times. It was a wonderful 
place for New Year's Eve parties. 

We had a little old lady who worked for us, Mrs. Melling. 
She was a character, about four feet ten inches high. She never 
walked, she scuttled. You know Edith Bunker from "All in the 
Family?" She always runs a little, trots a little. Well, 
Mrs. Melling trotted like that. She trotted around. 


We had a gardener named Matt Clarke. Then, we had a cleaning 
woman, a daily, Edna. We were all good friends, and we all drank 

The American consulate was closed this year, very sadly, after 
186 years. It was one of the oldest that we had anywhere in the 
world. I wish they had kept it open. 

The most famous American who has ever been in Liverpool was 
Nathaniel Hawthorne. He was consul in Liverpool during the 
presidency of Franklin Pierce. He wrote some sort of a campaign 
manual for Pierce. So, when Pierce was elected Hawthorne was 
given the choice of going as minister to Lisbon or as consul to 

In those days the consul's salary came from his consular 
fees, shipping and this kind of thing. He could make more money, 
I think, in Liverpool than he could having a salary in Lisbon. 

So, Hawthorne chose Liverpool and he lived there four years. 
He wrote a book about it called Our Old Home. After four years , 
Hawthorne apparently had made enough money to retire. So, he 
went off to Italy to live and wrote the Marble Fawn. 

This house that we lived in in Liverpool was called Whinlatter. 
Well, I did not like this name. It sounded to me like a horse. 
[Laughter] Doesn't it? Whinlatter, whinny, Whinlatter. So, 
after I had been there a while, I began to think, "Why don't we 
change the name to Hawthorne House, because Hawthorne is a famous, 
famous American, one of the great writers?" 


C. Service: So, I asked around to see if any of the neighbors would care, if 
Whinlatter had some significance. Nobody knew what it meant. 
It had no significance. It hadn't been used on that house forever, 
or rather that site. We asked the embassy in London if we could 
change the name. The embassy didn't care. 

So, we changed the name to Hawthorne House, and it was called 
Hawthorne House from then on until now — It's up for sale since 
the Americans have moved out of Liverpool. Maybe the people who 
buy it will keep the name. Maybe they won't. 

But I felt very pleased. I had a creative thought, let's 
say. [Laughter] I don't have many. 

Light Consular Duties 

C. Service: I'll try to make this very short now. Our life in Liverpool was 

happy. There were very few things we had to do. Very few Americans 
came. No congressional people came roaring through Liverpool. 
People who did come, came because they wanted to see us. 

A few strangers came through. Liberace came once and gave 
a concert. Once in a while somebody else would turn up. I'm 
trying to think who else. Well, I can't. 

Our friends therefore were English. There were a few 
American women married to Englishmen, and of course we knew them 
well. There were one or two other American couples. It was a 
four man office. Jack was in charge, but they never made him 
consul-general. The State Department never would put it up to 
the Senate. So, Jack was in charge as consul. Then, Henry and 
Betty Nichol who became dear friends; I would not have loved 
Liverpool so much without Betty Nichol. She was marvelous. 
One of the vice-consuls was Mary Willis MacKenzie. We, too, 
became very good friends. Mary Willis later, after she retired, 
married retired Ambassador Wilson Flake. And we became good 
friends with many of the English staff. 

Liverpool's quite a gay place; people give lots of parties. 
They give cocktail parties. The British love to dance. Every 
winter the Lord Mayor gave a ball. There were about thirty-nine 
consulates in Liverpool, a fair-sized consular corps. The consuls 
gave a ball every year too and invited the Lord Mayor and various 
functionaries . 

Levenson: Did you have many official duties? 


C. Service: 


C. Service: 

Practically none because there was no reason to be official. 
Official duties usually come if you've got a large American 
community or a lot of people coming through. But, we all enter 
tained each other and that was it. It didn't matter what 1 did. 
I explored Liverpool and I went antiquing and to museums . And 1 
became great friends with the owner of a pawn shop, Mr. Browner, 
who would save any Georgian spoons he got for me. 

Philip went to the local public school, Liverpool College. 
He did well there. He got a history prize one year. 


The official things were more for men only. I don't recall that 
we did anything on the Fourth of July. Jack had a party at the 
consulate and the men came to it, which was fine. 

We were able to go to Scotland. We didn't travel very much, 
but every so often Jack could have leave. We went to France for 
several weeks and to Zurich to see Mr. Wells. I had never been 
to Europe before. 


You did once. You were in Rome. 

C. Service: Rome, I had been in Rome. Right. You are right. 
I had been in Rome. 


We're both very, very keen on cathedrals, romanesque ones 
particularly, so we went to Durham which is a magnificent romanesque 
cathedral. And St. Albans — that's another romanesque cathedral, 
marvelous. Ely is wonderful; it's early English however. Winchester 
is marvelous. I like it better than Salisbury. 

For me being in England — I began to reread all the English 
novels, the 19th century novels. I reread all of Jane Austen. 
I reread all of the Brontes. We went to Haworth, in Yorkshire, 
where they lived. I reread all of Thomas Hardy. I didn't read 
so much of Dickens. I read him much more, later. I had read 
most of these books before, but now everything became so meaningful. 
Anyway, the books are marvelous. George Eliot, all of them, you 
get so much more out of them when you're older. I did not "discover" 
Trollope till I lived in Berkeley. 

One thing that interested me is that very few of my English 
friends had read any of these books. This did interest me. The 
people we knew best in Liverpool must have been upper middle class? 
We didn't know any aristocracy. 

There were two local deities who lived near Liverpool, 
Lord Derby and Lord Sefton. These people were like, yes, like 
deities. They floated in the air above the city. They had their 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 


names in the papers as being the honorary something or other of 
a committee. But, you never saw them. There was an ambience 
around their names. I did meet Lady Sefton once. She happened 
to be American. The Derbys — I finally did meet Lord Derby. But, 
they really weren't part of Liverpool. 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 

At Christmas time 

People mentioned their names in bated breath, 
we always got two pheasants from the Sef tons . 

Oh , lovely . 

Apparently they believed in — They had always sent two pheasants 
or two somethings to the American consul. But, I felt a little 
bit put down by this because I thought, "Well, why do we get two 
pheasants but I never meet the Sef tons?" I felt really a bit 
[laughter] like a tenant. They sent the pheasants at Christmas 
or New Year's. I didn't know what to do with these blasted birds. 
They came with all their feathers on. I finally took them to the 
butcher, and I said, "You do something with them." I think that 
one year we ate them. Another we didn't. I'm not very fond of 

But, it was a nuisance because I had to write a nice note to 
Lord Sefton. It was ridiculous, wasn't it, sending two pheasants 
around? I'm sure Lord Sefton didn't know it. I'm sure back in 
the 19th century somebody had started this, and there was a list 
and they sent two pheasants around to the people on the list. 
And the American consul was on the list. 

To go back to why I started this . I did not know a single 
Englishwoman who had a university education. Now, this really 
fascinated me. Now, remember they were my age, in their fifties. 
Maybe a few were younger. Some were younger in their forties. 
Some were older. 

A few of the daughters were going to University. Most of 
them left school at seventeen, eighteen, and that was it. They 
went on to jobs and eventually they got married. The people my 
age had never thought, of course, of going to University. There 
weren't enough places. 

That's true. 

This I understood, of course, but I also realized that most 
Englishwomen that I met were not terribly well educated. 

That's also true. 


C. Service: This was a surprise to me. I think they were probably fairly 

well grounded in languages, but English literature, my dear, they 
did not — at least the ones I knew — did not seem to have read most 
of these books. Now, I can hardly believe that yet. They did 
not know much English history either. Well, this interested me; 
it is just a little aside that had nothing to do with friendship 
or knowing people. But, it's something I found out after I'd 
been there a while. Perhaps if we had lived in some other place, 
I would have met more of a University oriented group. Cambridge, 
Oxford, of course I would have, but not in Liverpool. 

Virginia's Marriage and Bob's Career 

C. Service: We arrived in Liverpool in the fall of 1959. The next spring our 
daughter Virginia wrote us a letter and said she was to be married 
to Garth McCormick, Garth Philip McCormick. 

So, Ginny came in July, and Garth came about a week before 
the wedding. They were married August 20, in Liverpool in a 
little Unitarian chapel called the Ancient Chapel of Toxteth which 
had been founded In 1619 as a Presbyterian chapel, I believe, and 
the reception was at Hawthorne House. It was a beautiful day. 
Ginny and Garth have three daughters and a son. 

That spring Bob passed the Foreign Service exams, much to our 
joy and happiness. He was accepted In the Foreign Service, but 
he asked for a six months leave because he was going to do six 
months in the army. He did six months in the army and then in 
January, 1961, he joined the Foreign Service. And he is still in 
the Foreign Service. 

In 1967 he and Karol (spelled with a K) Christine Kleiner 
were married. She had worked for the Department of Labor. They 
have a daughter and a son. 

Levenson: I know that Jack Kahn when he was doing research for The China 

Hands had talked to your son Bob. Were you aware at the time that 
he wanted to join the Foreign Service to vindicate his father's 

C. Service: No, we had never read that before. I don't think — I spoke to 
Karol about that, and she said, "Well, that isn't quite what Bob 
said." [Chuckle] I think he always wanted to join the Foreign 
Service. I think he was very happy to vindicate his father's 
name, but I do not think that that was solely or even the main 
reason. I hope Bob joined the Foreign Service because that was 
what he wanted to do. We've never mentioned this to Bob, but 
Karol said Bob wasn't quoted quite accurately on that one. 




No Promotion for Jack 

C. Service: Several promotion lists had come and gone since Jack had gotten 
back in the Foreign Service. He got back in 1957. By the year 
1962 Jack realized he was never going to be promoted again. 

We had leave in 1961, and I came home early with Philip 
so that he could learn to drive a car. By this time he was 
sixteen. Then, Philip went back to school in Liverpool, and 
Jack came home. I had about a month with Jack in Washington, 
and then I went back to Liverpool. Jack didn't come back till 
December, 1961. 

He had talked with Ed Rhetts. He had talked with lawyers. 
He had talked with people at the State Department, and they 
had given him the feeling that he could stay on in Liverpool 
forever, but they would never really give him a good post and 
he would never be promoted again, although this was up to the 
promotion boards, but they felt that he would not be promoted. 

Levenson: What was he, a class II officer at that time? 

C. Service: Yes. He had been made class II in New Zealand, you see, way 
back in 19 — oh my, I'm trying to think — 1948. 

Levenson: Forty-eight, yes. 

C. Service: So, here you see thirteen years had gone by without a promotion. 
Also, although the Supreme Court decision stated that Jack had 
never been out of the Foreign Service — And presumably this 
meant that Jack should have had a promotion. But it didn't 
happen. Nobody was going to do anything. Nobody was going to 
bother Jack, but if his name had been put up for promotion it 
would probably have created a commotion. 

When Jack came back he said he was going to retire. He could 
get a pension then from the State Department, and the Sarco stock 
had been sold which would give us a financial cushion even after 
all taxes, lawyers' fees, and debts were paid. It was a gift 
from heaven, or rather I should say it was from Mr. Wells. Because 
of Jack's being hired by Mr. Wells. We owe him a great debt of 

See Appendix 5 for a summary accounting. 


Early Retirement 

C. Service: In April, 1962, Jack handed in his resignation, or rather he 

applied for retirement. So, we retired on May 31, 1962. We were 
in London at the time. We had gone up for some reason to London. 
We had cocktails with some people we hardly knew. It was very 
strange. Just suddenly that was it. But, having been out of the 
Foreign Service once before, it was not so difficult the second 
time around. 

I would like to say here too, although I adored the Foreign 
Service and I think it was a wonderful life, when we were 
reinstated and went back in a lot of the fervor I had had was 
gone. You asked me if there were a lot of official things in 
Liverpool. No, there weren't. But, even if there had been, I 
wouldn't have felt it quite so incumbent on me to do so much 
anymore. I'd been a very good Foreign Service wife, I think, 
right up to the day Jack was fired. But, I could now stand back 
and look at it with not a jaundiced look, but with more of a 
clear-eyed look than I had before. 

After we retired Philip was still in school. And the embassy 
in London was very considerate. They just said, "Stay in the 
house until you leave." We did and we paid the servants ourselves. 
That was all there was to it. 

Jack and I, though, we went off on a trip, a five weeks' 
trip [laughter] including a two weeks' Mediterranean cruise 
starting at Venice and going through the Greek Isles. 

Levenson : 


C. Service: Yes — wonderful. When we got back to Liverpool Philip was through 
school. We packed up and we left England, I weeping so many tears. 
We sailed down the Mersey River, saying goodbye to so many people 
that we really hated to leave, and I was weeping, weeping, weeping. 
I felt sad. I felt sad for many reasons. We'd been very happy 
in Liverpool. I thought, "Oh dear, this life—" We were fifty-two 
years old. We'd had a rather checkered career, hadn't we? 



C. Service: We came back home. We saw our children in Washington, Ginny 
and Garth. We were grandparents by then. Jessica McCormick 
was born on June 3, 1961. We'd already seen her the year before. 
She was now a year and a half, and Ginny was about to have 
another baby, who turned out to be another girl, Rachel. Caroline 
is the third girl, and then John. And Bob's and Karol's children 
are Jennifer and John. Both of the boys are named for Jack. 


C. Service: We came back to Berkeley where we've been ever since. Jack 

decided he'd get an MA, which he did, in political science. My 
mother in her mid-eighties lived here, and my sister Katherine 
and her husband lived here. This was a natural place for us to 
come. Jack's family came from around here. 

Philip came back with us to Berkeley, of course, and graduated 
from Berkeley High School. Then, he went to Pomona. He was 
married to a classmate, Jolayne Williams. They then went to 
Chapel Hill, [North Carolina], and both of them got masters 
degrees. Unfortunately the marriage broke up. They had no 

I have not mentioned Jack's brother Bob and his family. 
They lived in Chester, California. Bob was killed in a forestry 
accident in 1964. He, his wife Esta, and son Rob, always were 
our strong supporters, and Esta and we have grown closer during 
these Berkeley years. 

The great event in our lives in these later years was going 
back 'co China in 1971, but that I'll do next time. I think we 
can finish things up next time. 

Levenson: That sounds like a good place to stop today. 

C. Service: Yes, because that is — Well, it's unbe — [Chuckle] The circle 
really had gone round, to go back. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 

The Service Family, January, 1973 - Left to right: 
(top row) Garth McCormick, Jack Service, Bob Service, 
Philip Service; (middle row) Virginia Service McCormick, 
Caroline Service, Jessica McCormick, Karol Kleiner 
Service; (bottom row) Callie (Caroline) McCormick, 
Jennifer Service, Rachel McCormick, John Service. 

Guide Wu Shih-liang and Caroline 
outside Peace Hotel, Peking, 1975 

Ma Hai-teh's Courtyard, Peking, June 25, 1975 
left to right: Dr. Hans Muller, Dr. Ku Sol 
Adler, Jack f, Caroline, and George Hat em 

Jack § Caroline Service, Fall, 1969 - 40 years after first date 



[Interview 9: December 7, 1976] 
[begin tape 1, side 1] 

Jack Gets an MA in Political Science, and a Job at the Center 
for Chinese Studies 

C. Service: We bought a house with some of the Sarco money, this one. 

Levenson: I love it. 

C. Service: It's made our life very comfortable. 

Jack was a student at the University of California for two 
years, and he got an MA in political science, at which point he 
thought maybe he should go on and get a Ph.D. (He had to take a 
lot of undergraduate courses because he'd been an economics major 
in college.) But, he didn't really want to, if the truth must be 
known, because it meant more years of grind. Let's see, by this 
time Jack was fifty- three, fifty-four, fifty-five. [1964] 

Levenson: What he told me at the time was that he wanted to spend some time 
with his wife. [Laughter] 

C. Service: That's lovely. I think his wife said, "Look, you've got to spend 
some time with me," as husbands and wives do say these things. 
[Laughter] I was very glad when Jack decided not to work for a 

He decided not to do it mainly though — sweet as he was to 
say this about his wife — because he found he could get a job at 
the Center for Chinese Studies. He came home very happy one day, 
and he said, "I think I'm going to get a job there working in the 
library and this will be fine. This is just what I would like 
to do because it would take me back into my field." It suited 
us both. It was lovely for both of us. So, he did get the job. 


C. Service: He was just very, very happy. It put Jack back into his field 

of Chinese. It brought him into contact with all sorts of people 
who are interested in China. 

Jack stood on his own merits, because he himself is a China 
scholar. He began to feel his world was opening up again. I 
think we both did. People wanted to talk with him. They wanted 
to know what he thought, what he knew, although he didn't know 
too much about recent events. Of course, we never dreamed we 
would ever go back to China. Nobody did. Nobody thought in those 

Levenson: Let's just put a date on this. We are now talking about 1964? 

C. Service: That's right. Actually, he started at the center in the fall of 
'64, 1 think. From then on, he did do the library part, but then 
he began to do other things. Finally, the center gave him the 
title of specialist. What does that mean? Who knows? But, it 
was an official title which covered whatever Jack did, and he did 
a lot of things there at the library and at the center. He began 
to do a lot of editing. He began to read manuscripts for people. 
He began to do all sorts of things. 

Amerasia Again 

C. Service: 


C. Service: 

Then, the center began to put out a series of monographs. 
Finally, Jack did his own monograph called The Amerasia Papers; 
Some Problems in the History of U.S. -China Relations [Number 7, 
May 1971, University of California, Berkeley]. He wrote this 
because the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee came out with 
a perfectly horrible volume rehashing everything again, full of 
wrong facts, absolutely wrong facts. So, Jack finally decided 
the time, had come for him to tell his story. 

As I recall, he was able for the first time to get access to his 
own files. 

Yes, he was. He was able to do that, and he got those, a lot of 
them. So, he could disprove things by showing chapter and verse, 
that what they were saying was for the most part wrong and was 
propaganda. Of course, it was old stuff that they had been sitting 
on for, how many years? 

*Dr. Anthony Kubek, editor. The Amerasia Papers; A Clue to the 
Catastrophe of China, two volumes, 1970. 


Levenson: Over twenty years. 

C. Service: Yes, right. They decided suddenly to publish it for no real 
reason. I think it had something to do with the fact that 
people were beginning to talk in terms of maybe opening relations 
with mainland China. I really think that that was it. This was 
in 1970 before, long before Nixon went to China, but perhaps 
there were rumblings in Washington that something was going to 
happen. These people wanted to do everything they could to stop 
it. Who, who? When I say "these people," I do not know exactly 
who. Sourwine? People like Kubek? The China Lobby? — still far 
from dead. 

Ping Pong Diplomacy 

C. Service: But, in 1971 — that was the year of ping pong. 
Levenson: Ping pong diplomacy. 

C. Service: Ping pong diplomacy. We were all electrified one day — was it 
April or May; April I think; sometime in the spring — by seeing 
on television, reading in the paper, seeing pictures that the 
American ping pong team was going to Peking. It really — it was 
an electrifying thing. We couldn't believe it. 

We had known that Edgar Snow and Lois were in China that 
year because we had had a post card from them from Yenan, and 
it was really like getting a missive from the moon. We did not 
know that people could go to Yenan. We did not know that people 
could get mail from Yenan. This came in February, I think, of 
1971. I remember Jack took it to the office and showed it around. 
Here was [chuckle] a post card from Yenan. Could anybody believe 
it? Yes it was from Edgar and Lois Snow. 

We went to Alaska that summer. We went to Alaska all of 
June. So, ping pong had to be before that. Then, when we came 
back I went east to Washington for two weeks to see Ginny. Then, 
I'd no sooner got back from that, than my brother-in-law in 
Seattle died. So, I went up to be with my oldest sister, Gertrude 
Hausman . 

Then, when I got back from that, the end of July, Bob and 
Karol and their two children were coming home from Mexico. They 
were being transferred to Washington. 

Sometime before Bob and Karol arrived on August 15, Jack 
came home from the office one day and said, "We've been invited 
to China!" I said, "Jack, what do you mean, we've been invited 


C. Service: to China?" He said, "Well, the New York Times called up and 

said, 'You are going to be in [James] Reston's column tomorrow," 1 
and that Res ton had asked Chou En-lai, at a dinner, what about 
the people who'd been so badly hurt during the McCarthy era and 
could any of them come back to China? I don't know exactly how 
the question was couched. 

Chou's reply was, "Yes, they would be very welcome to come 
back to China." He named four names. The four were John Carter 
Vincent, John Fairbank, Jack, and Owen Lattimore, and that they 
would be welcome to return to China. 

So, when Jack said that to me I said, "That's not an invi 
tation. That simply says you'd be welcome to come back." Let 
me go back a minute. In July, Kissinger turned up in Peking, 
like the genie from the bottle. It was announced that Nixon would 
be going to China. 

Of course, this was even more electrifying than the ping 
pong team. Well, this was the most stunning thing that could 
happen. Now, I have hardly a good word to say for Nixon. I have 
disliked him intensely forever, it seems to me, since ever he 
appeared on the political scene. Yet, I suppose that only a 
Republican conservative, reactionary almost, president could 
have done this. I do not think a Democrat could have done it. 
I think it had to be done. It should have been done long since. 

So, Nixon did do it through Kissinger. This was, of course, 
why Reston was in China, and one or two other people were 
beginning to go. 

When Jack came home and said this, he also said, "I'm 
going to write to Canada [to the Chinese embassy] and see if we 
can go to China." I said, "Jack, you can't go before the president 
of the United States goes." He said, "Why not? Other people are 
going." I said, "Of course, that's true. There's no reason why 
you can't. But, if you go, I'm going. You're not going to go 
off to China by yourself! I would just have a fit." (Jack may 
have been saying "I" rather than "we." I am not sure.) 

Levenson: [Chuckle] Good for you. 

C. Service: Anyway, he wrote to Huang Hua in Canada and asked if we could go. 
He quoted this, you know, the fact that Chou En-lai had made this 
statement that he would be welcome and that he would like to bring 
his wife with him. 

We did not hear for three weeks. So, I assume the letter 
went to Peking or it certainly was discussed with Peking. I have 
a letter here, a note. I wrote to Lisa on Monday a.m. September 13, 


C. Service: 1971. I say, 

J didn't get my letter mailed, so I'll add 
this. Jack just phoned to say that we 've been 
granted a one month's visa to visit China starting 
the end of this month. Miraculous! We will try 
to leave here by the 25th. Impossible to believe. 
Jack is perhaps going to Ottawa to get the visas 
probably late this week. He was going to phone 
Ottawa this morning, so I will know more this 
evening. He had a personal letter from Huang Hua. 
Jack said to tell you and Marshall, but we will 
say nothing to others until some details are 
more definite. Hope we will see the Osbomes in 
Hong Kong. Any suggestions for Hong Kong? Please 
phone me by the end of the week if you care to. 

We did get the visas. I couldn't believe it. I really — If 
somebody had told me earlier that I was going to China in 1971 I 
would have said, "Impossible." We never could have believed 
that such a thing would happen. 

To China, September 23, 1971 

C. Service: But, on September 23, we left. I have the letter I wrote, which 
I wrote for Christmas about our trip, but I'm going to talk about 
it now.* We left on September 23, and we arrived in Peking fifty- 
six hours later. 

I had left Peking in September of 1937, and I had left China 
in November, 1940. So, this was thirty-one years later for me 
and twenty-six years later for Jack. 

Even now I can hardly express the changes . I had left a 
country which was being ravaged by the Japanese war. I had left 
a country that was disintegrating. Now, it had been disintegrating 
for a long, long time. But I was not very much aware of this. I 
did know things were terrible. People did have an awful time in 
China. These are generalizations, but people did starve in the 
hundreds of thousands . 

In order for the Chinese to live they had almost to do 
somebody else down. People were eating off of each other. It 
was really sort of a tooth and claw existence for the vast 
majority of Chinese people. There were wealthy people at the 
top, yes. There were people who did not base their lives on this 

*See Appendix 6. 


C. Service: kind of an economic system. But, in order to survive in China 

at the lower levels they almost inevitably had to do it at someone 
else's expense. 

There was almost no way, except through the family system, 
that people could survive in China. There were no charitable 
organizations, except a few foreign ones like the China Famine 
Relief. There was nothing that could help a person who was down 
and out. He was down and out. Maybe he would starve a little, 
beg a little, take to the streets a little. Even to be a rickshaw 
man he had to have somebody who would set him up with a rickshaw. 
There was just no way for many people to survive. I can't 
emphasize this enough. 

When we arrived in Peking in 1971 we were met by two 
companions who stayed with us the whole six and a half weeks: 
Mr. Lao T'ang* and Miss Hsiao Meng 5 Mr. T'ang was about forty-six 
or forty-seven. Lao T'ang we called him, after a bit. Of course, 
he knew the old China. Hsiao Meng, as we called her, little Meng, 
was only thirty or thirty-one. She had been born at the end of 
the war, and she knew nothing about the old China except what she 
had heard. 

We were taken from the airport to the Peking Hotel where we 
had gone dancing in the old days in Peking but where we had never 
stayed. It was done up in the Chinese interior decoration style, 
which leaves much to be desired. The one art form they do not 
understand is interior decoration, the Chinese. They just put 
things against the wall, put out big rugs, which are fine, a few 
pictures on the wall, a few spittoons and that is about it. We 
had a very comfortable room on the third floor, looking right out 
on the Chang An Chieh the great big wide street running east and 
west from T'ien An Men square. 

The people were very well dressed. On this first trip in 
1971, there were a few pedicabs, usually run by old rickshaw men 
for old people or sick people. When we returned to Peking in 
'75, there were no pedicabs at all. There was very good public 
transportation. There were millions of bicycles. And there 
were taxis. 

People were not all dressed in blue. They dressed in grays, 
in browns, and various darkish colors, dark green and so on. 
The children were very brightly dressed. Everybody looked well-fed. 
Without exception, no place in China did I see people who looked 
as though they were starving or as though they did not have enough 
to eat. 

Now, I am not talking in any way, in a political sense. I 
am not talking about the toll this probably took when the Communists 
finally took over and had to organize people. Many people did lose 

l *3 J ' 

} * / 


C. Service: their lives in some of the early periods. The Cultural Revolution 
was a traumatic experience. But, I do not think that vast millions 
of people were killed or died. This I simply do not believe, and 
I hope someday to see figures which will bear me out on this . 

Levenson: I'd like to know about that too because the teaching in the public 
schools says something like 800,000 people were killed in the 
early days and 1 doubt this. 

C. Service: I got that figure too out of the World Almanac. Now, 800,000 is 
terrible. But, nevertheless, you used to lose that many in a 
famine, easily. 

Levenson: More. 

C. Service: More. This happened over and over and over again, 
happen over again now in China. 

It does not 

Old Friends 

C. Service: One of the interesting things about going back to China was seeing 
old friends, foreign friends. Now, we did not see any Chinese 
old friends because we didn't have any Chinese old friends. In 
fact, it made me realize that I had really not had any Chinese 
friends. We had lived as foreigners in China. The few Chinese we 
knew well in Shanghai were really foreign-type Chinese. They 
were born in China surely. But, they were educated abroad, they 
were mostly Christians, they were very westernized Chinese, and 
they had all left China. So, there was nobody like this left. 

Jack had some old friends from Yenan days. That is true. 
He saw some of them, a few, not all. He would have liked to see 
Chu Teh. He mentioned that, but he did not see Chu Teh, maybe 
because Chu Teh was not well. He was very old. He didn't die 
though till this year. But, he saw several other people whom 
he'd known in Yenan. 

But, the people we did see — We saw Sol Adler whom Jack had 
known in Chungking, and whom I had met in Washington — him and his 
second wife, Pat. His first wife had died. Pat is a Welsh woman. 
We saw the [George] Hatems. Now, Jack had known George Hatem in 
Yenan ana his very beautiful Chinese wife Su-fei. And Rewi Alley 
who's a Nev? Zealander. 

Then, there were several other foreigners in Peking whom 
Jack had known in Yenan. Well, here they still were. They had 
lived in China all these years. Sol Adler had returned to China 


C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 

in the 60's. They looked simply great! They were all flourishing. 
[Chuckle] We all had had the feeling something terrible might 
have happened to them. Where were they? What did they do? They 
looked just like the rest of us and there they were! [Laughter] 
It was really an old home kind of week for us. 

Were there any tensions — any tensions of any sort? 

No, none at all. The only person 1 had known before was Sol. 
I hadn't known the others. I didn't feel any tensions at all. 

In Peking — we never have yet discovered if there is a 
telephone book in Peking. But, everybody has his little book of 
telephone numbers. You can call up anybody and it is direct dial. 
We could dial right out of our hotel room and get people. This 
was astonishing to me. I didn't really expect something like 
this. I didn't expect so much modern life in China. I don't know 
why. 1 suppose because when we lived there if you wanted to tele 
phone you got the boy to call the number and he got the place and 
you went through a big rigamarole. No more; you do it yourself 
if you've got the number and know the person. We really had just 
a fine time with these old friends. I soon felt they were my old 
friends too. 

October 1 Banquet and Chou En-lai's Reception 

C. Service: We stayed in Peking — We were there for the October 1 celebrations. 
They asked all the foreigners in the place, the people who lived 
there permanently and the visitors, to a big banquet. They had 
two big banquets that year, one on October 1, and one on 
September 30, I think. We were invited to the one on October 1. 

We were in the big grand hall, in the Great Hall of the 
People, in the room that holds five thousand people, the one 
you always see on TV when heads of state visit. Chou En-lai 
came — we saw him at a distance; we did not meet him that 
night — and lots of Chinese officials, some that Jack had known 
before. We sat at a table with foreigners and with our interpreters, 

Entry in a travel book for October 1, 1971: 
Evening. State Reception at the Great Hall 
of the People, the second of two. This one 
mainly attended by non-communist groups of 
foreigners and foreign Peking residents (not 
diplomats) . Chou En-lai and Chiang Ch ' ing 
(Mao's wife) were the ranking people present. 
The dinner reception began at 7:00 p.m., ended 


C. Service: at 8:30. Back at hotel by 9. We sat 

at same table with a Prof, and Mme. Freymond 
(Swiss) & Prof. Michele Loi (French). 

This was the first time I'd ever consciously heard "The 
Internationale" played. The music is beautiful. The orchestra 
played some foreign music as well. 

We knew that we were going to Sian and we knew that we were 
going to Yenan, but we didn't know quite when we were to leave 
Peking. One thing you have to get used to in China, you never 
know until almost the moment it happens just when you will do 
something. If you're going to be invited to dinner you're not 
invited until that day. Although you may hear you're going to 
be invited, you're never sure because the people who run things 
are apparently so busy that they hardly know themselves whether 
they're going to be able to see you. So, everything has a kind 
of last moment atmosphere about it. But, on October 4th, in the 
afternoon, we were told to stay in our rooms, that we were going 
to get a call. 

Well, I must tell you that one of the foreigners in Peking 
at that time was Jack Belden. Now, Jack Belden wrote a marvelous 
book about China, a classic called China Shakes the World [1949]. 

He had been invited back and he was in the hotel. Jack 
Belden was not well. He was coughing, coughing, coughing. He 
was going to be taken to Inner Mongolia to see things there 
because he wanted to go, I guess, or they offered him the chance. 

So, he was sort of sitting around. He was down on the second 
floor right under us. Jack had known him very well in Chungking. 
We became very friendly and often ate our meals together in the 

Jack Belden was not happy in China. I don't know why. He 
was most unhappy. Whether because he couldn't do what he wanted 
or what. He had traveled any place he wanted before, and this 
you cannot do in China today. 

When this information came that we were to stay in our rooms, 
Jack Belden called up from downstairs and said, "Is this house 

Levenson: Oh my! 

C. Service: He said, 'I've been told not to leave." I said, "Well, we have 
too, but it's nothing like that. We're just going to be invited 
to something." Jack Belden was very unhappy during this period. 


C. Service: Ma Hai-teh who is George Hatem had invited us to dinner that 
evening. So, we said, "We better call up Ma Hai-teh and tell 
him we can't come to dinner. We have to stay here in the hotel." 
So, we called up Ma Hai-teh and he said, "Oh, that's all right. 
You come on out here because we also are staying around waiting 
for a phone call. They'll phone us here. If they can phone you 
at the hotel they can also phone you at our house." At 8:00 o'clock 
they called and said nothing was going to happen. So, we stayed 
on at Ma Hai-teh 's for a while. 

This was Monday. Well, the next day the same thing. "Stay 
around in your room. Don't go out. Stay around where we can 
get in touch with you." I think we did go someplace in the 
morning because we knew we wouldn't be told to do anything in 
the morning. 

The second night we stayed in the hotel. We ate dinner very 
early. We were told, "Eat dinner early." Our companions really 
did feel something was going to happen. At 8:00 o'clock a phone 
call came to the hotel saying, "Come to the Great Hall of the 
People." We were going to be received by Chou En-lai. This 
was Tuesday, October 5. 

So, off we went to the Great Hall of the People. Chou was 
standing at the head of a long stairway receiving people. There 
must have been about sixty Americans there and a few others. 

Levenson: Gracious, that many? 

C. Service: Yes. Well, Americans who were visiting, Americans who lived there. 
There were also people like Rewi Alley, who is a New Zealander, 
and a few other foreigners who lived there. Among the visiting 
Americans were Dr. Samuel Rosen and his wife. He's a famous ear 
specialist from New York and he had been in China traveling around, 
looking at their ear operations and and showing them his. He and 
his wife and Dr. and Mrs. Victor Sidel were brought back from 
Shanghai for the reception. Huey Newton was there — he and some 
of his people. 

Levenson: Black Panthers. 

C. Service: Yes, B.lack Panthers I suppose — two or three perhaps. Endless 
Hintons were there. 

Levens on : Hint ons ? 

C. Service: The Hintons are a famous family in China and elsewhere. I believe 
they started the Putney School in Vermont. 

Levenson: Oh, yes. 


C. Service: Mrs. Hinton, Sr. — her granddaughter is named for her — Carmelita. 
Mrs. Carmelita Hinton was there. She had come out with a group 
of young people, and they were going off to a commune. 

Her son, Bill Hinton, had come back with his black wife 
and three children. His first wife had stayed in Peking with 
their daughter Carmelita, a beautiful blonde girl. His beautiful 
black wife was also there. I mean he had two wives — his ex-wife 
and his beautiful black wife, his present wife, and three darling 
kids, and his daughter, Carmelita, who had grown up, who had 
stayed in China with her mother when the Hinton marriage had 
broken up. They were all, except the three young children, at 
this meeting. 

Bill Hinton has written a classic book on China called 
Fanshen [1967]. He had come back to return to the village where 
he had done this study. 

Levenson: Oh, yes. I remember that. 

[end tape 1, side 1; begin tape 1, side 2] 
Levenson: You said Bill Hinton has two sisters. 

C. Service: Hinton has two sisters. One had stayed on in China with her 
husband, the Engsts. And they live on a commune. His other 
sister was visiting out there; whether she was there at that 
time — I'm not sure. 

Anyway, the Hintons are a remarkable family. They know a 
great deal about China. They have many contacts in China. They 
are parsona grata always in China. They were there. 

There were lots of other people at this reception, people 
we didn't know. There must have been sixty people. Chou talked 
from about 8:00 o'clock — well, after he met us all — about 8:30 p.m. 
till about 10:30 p.m. We all sat in a big circle. He sat in a 
chair with Grace and Manny Granich beside him. They had been 
friends of his in the Shanghai days, when the Graniches had 
edited a paper in Shanghai. They sat next to Chou En-lai in the 
seats of honor. 

He talked and talked — Chou did — telling us various things 
about China's feelings about the rest of the world, relation 
ship with the West; with Russia, which was not good of course, 
and that they were not going to make friends with Russia again, 
at least not then. 

Then, Chou kept looking at his watch. Finally, he said, 
"Right at this time — " He looked at his watch and he said, "At 
this very moment it is being announced simultaneously in Washington 


C. Service: and in Peking that Secretary Kissinger is coming to China again 
towards the end of this month." So, Kissinger was coining on his 
second trip! After that the meeting broke up. 

Jack had not seen Chou En-lai, of course, since the Yenan 
days [1944-1945]. When we had gone into this meeting he and Chou 
had had quite a long conversation. Several times during the 
evening — which was mostly Chou talking; in fact, it was that — he 
had looked at Jack, referred to him, spoken to him, and said, "When 
Mr. Service was in Yenan," and this, that, and the other. He had 
been very, very cordial to Jack. 

We thought, "Well, this may be the only meeting that we're 
going to have." We had hoped — Of course, Jack had hoped that 
he would see Chairman Mao. This never happened. He did hope, 
too, to see Chou again. But, nobody ever tells you. We didn't 

Travels in Sian and Yenan 

C. Service: Well, two days after this meeting, on October 7, we started off 
on our trip to Yenan, Sian, Chengtu and so on, and I won't say 
much about it except that we flew always in little Russian planes, 
Ilyushin-14's usually. 

From Sian to Yenan we rode in a very small plane, also Russian. 
You go into Yenan through a narrow rift in the hills, and you put 
down on a little, tiny airstrip. Well, it's not so tiny, but it 
looks tiny. 

Levenson: Frightening? 

C. Service: Well, I'm always somewhat frightened in an airplane, but I'm no 
more frightened in this kind of an airplane than I am in a great 
big one. No, the closer I am to the ground the better I like it. 
Jack says this is ridiculous. [Laughter] 

Levenson: Yes, I agree with Jack, if you'll excuse me! 

C. Service: It is ridiculous. It's all simply psychological. I don't like 
to be way up in the air, and the closer I get to the ground the 
happier I am. Isn't that stupid! I'm always happy going down, 
but I'm always frightened going up, which makes no sense. It 
isn't logical. But, so I didn't mind it too much. 

Alwayj on a Chinese airplane you are given candy when you 
take off and land, you know, the old fashioned way. There was 
usually music piped in. In fact there always was, except on these 
trips back and forth to Yenan when the little stewardess sang us 
songs to give us some amusement . 


Levenson: How nice. 

C. Service: Wasn't that sweet? 

Levenson: Yes. 

C. Service: The stewardesses served tea. They also came around and wanted 
to know if we wanted pills. I said, "What's the pill for?" to 
Hsiao Meng. She said, "Well — " She took one. She said, "It 
makes you feel better." I don't know whether they were for 
sickness, or whether tranquilizers . I didn't take one. I did 

once just to see, but it made no difference, 
had nothing in them. 

Maybe the pills 

When we got to Chengtu, a cold I'd been harboring became 
severe. One thing foreigners have in China now is bronchial 
problems. They get bronchitis; some people get pneumonia; some 
get colds. I don't know why. It seems to be some germ, some bug, 
we're all susceptible to. 

My cold became bronchitis and I did not go to Chungking. 
I was really too sick to go. I went to bed and stayed by myself, 
with Hsiao Meng, in Chengtu for about three days. A very nice 
woman doctor came, and she gave me antibiotics, tetracycline, 
and I just had a good rest. 

It was lovely. I stayed in a big room in the hotel and 
read Edgar Snow's The Other Side of the River which Hsiao Meng 
had ir English. I needed the rest. The meals were brought to 
the room, and there were movies put on at night. They were shown 
in the hotel and I could go to them; mostly documentaries about 
how to keep tomatoes from spoiling, and another one about the 
great commune, Ta Chai, and this kind of thing. 

So, I was very well cared for. Every morning the responsible 
member of the revolutionary committee in the hotel, the local head 
of the Friendship Association, and the lady doctor would come in 
and look at me and ask me if there was anything I wanted, [chuckle] 
what could they do for me. We'd all talk about it for a minute, 
and the doctor would come back during the day. So, I had a very 
comfortable, pleasant time and really felt a lot better. 

Kissinger Sees Jack 

C. Service: We got back to Peking towards the end of October and Kissinger was 
in Peking. He had arrived with John Holdridge and Al Jenkins. 
They were State Department people. Holdridge, I believe, was 


C. Service: in Kissinger's office in the White House. This was before 

Kissinger was secretary of state. We knew they were in Peking, 
but there was no reason why we should assume we were going to 
see them. 

But, one day Jack was told that he was going to meet 
Kissinger that afternoon — I wasn't to go — that Kissinger wanted 
to see him. This I doubt. I imagine that the Chinese said Jack 
was there, and that they arranged the meeting. 

So, a car came in the afternoon and Jack was taken around to 
meet Kissinger and the other two. I guess he was with them about 
forty-five minutes or so. You'll have to ask Jack what they talked 
about. I think that Kissinger was surprised that Jack had ever 
known Mao. I don't really know. 

So, then Jack came back and 1 said, "Well, so how was that?" 
Jack said, "Oh, Kissinger said that when I get back that he'll 
call me up and get me down to San Clemente." Well, that never 
happened. 1 mean this was just a way of talking, and just as well 
it never happened. But, this was, of course, before Nixon had 
gone to China. So, 1 suppose the idea was maybe Jack would be 
able to brief Nixon on Mao. I'm not sure whether or not Kissinger 
had met Mao at this time. 

Levenson: I don't remember. 

Private Meeting with Chou En-lai 

C. Service: It was decided that we would leave Peking, I think, on October 28. 
This was also the time when the vote was coming up in the UN on 
whether or not China was going to be admitted to the United Nations. 
Kissinger was in Peking just before that time. We were invited 
to have dinner with Ch'iao Kuan-hua who, right now, is out of 
things . 

Levenson: Did you keep a diary while you were in China? 

C. Service: No, I just kept a sort of daily journal. This is not a diary. 

But, on October 25, in the evening actually, we went to a formal 
dinner given by Ch'iao Kuan-hua. He was vice-minister of foreign 
affairs then. It was in an official residence in the old legation 

The legation quarter, that's one place that was kind of a 
ghost city, the legation quarter. It's where many of the 


C. Service: foreigners used to live, where most of the legations and embassies 
were. The old houses had been taken over. The Chinese used some 
for guest houses. 

This is where the dinner was, in one of them. I knew I had 
been in that residence before. I think it was the old Austro- 
Hungarian embassy or Austrian embassy. I'm not sure, but it was 
some old residence that I had been in. 

That was the night of October 25. We waited and we waited 
and we waited for dinner. 1 still think we were waiting for 
Chou En-lai to come. But Kissinger, who was supposed to leave 
that day, had not. He did not leave till the next. This was 
the night they were having the UN vote, the night the People's 
Republic of China was voted into the United Nations. 

Anyway, finally we did eat dinner. There was somebody at 
the table — an extra person. The interpreters always eat at the 
table with you. They don't sit behind you. It's very nice. 
Whoever is at the party eats at the same table and it's lovely. 
But, there was one person, just sort of an extra, who didn't 
seem to have any connection. Jack said 1 probably was wrong, but 
1 still think that the real reason the dinner was set up was 
because Chou was going to come to it and we were going to see him. 
The Adlers were the only other foreigners there, 1 think. 

That was Monday. We were going to leave on October 28, 
Thursday. Tuesday nothing happened, although 1 thought something 
was going to happen. I don't know why. On October 27, well, we 
were going to leave the next day. Nothing was going to happen. 
That afternoon Jack was to go out to Pel Ta University and I said 
I did not want to go. We went out walking in the morning. 

We walked a great deal by ourselves in Peking. We didn't 
have people with us all the time. When we had spare time and 
wanted to go out we went out. There was no compunction or feeling 
we had to stay in or ask somebody to go out. 

In the afternoon Jack went off with Lao T'ang to the university. 
1 wrote a lot of post cards, and then 1 went down and bought some 
stamps and mailed the cards. This was about 3:30, 4:00 in the 
afternoon. I decided I'd go out and take a little walk. It was 
very bright and sunny as it often is in Peking in the fall. But, 
after I'd walked to the corner I thought, "Oh goodness, Jack will 
be home soon.. I guess I'll go back." I didn't feel like walking 
any further. 

So, I went back to the hotel. As I came in the door there 
was our friend Lao Hu,* the man from the Friendship Association. 
He said, [excitedly] "Where have you been?" So, I — [Chuckle] 


C. Service: 

I said, "Been? I've been out walking." He said, "Go change your 
clothes!" [laughter] He said, "Put on your dress. You're 
going to meet the premier." 

I said, "What? Jack's not here." He said, "Jack's coming." 
I said, "But, he's gone out to Pei Ta University." He said, "No, 
we've telephoned. They're coming back." They'd telephoned — 
They were always telephoning. It was simply the most amazing 
thing. I said, "But, does he know?" He said, "No." 

Then, he said, "Put on your dress." I had one party dress. 
[Laughter] So, I rushed up to the room and changed my clothes. 

Pretty soon Jack did come rushing in and he said, "What's 
up?" They hadn't told him yet. I said, "Don't you know? We're 
going to see the premier. We're going to see Chou En-lai." 
I said, "Put on your suit!" [Laughter] I said exactly what Lao 
Hu had said to me, "Put on your suit." 

By that time somebody had come up to the room. Lao Hu had 
come up. Well, Lao Hu had come up and then Jack knew. So, we 
hustled into our clothes and we went off to the Great Hall of 
the People at 5:00 o'clock. 

We had three long hours with Chou En-lai. The only people 
there were our interpreters, Lao T'ang and Hsiao Meng, and his 
interpreters. One was Nancy Tang who is the famous woman inter 
preter who was born in this country. The interpreters and a 
couple of people from the foreign office, that was it. There 
was tea. We all sat in chairs and we all had tea. We've got a 
picture of it somewhere. 

It was mostly a monologue. I mean I think this was probably 
always true. But, Chou went through the whole field of foreign 
relationships again. It was just after the UN session when China 
had been voted into the United Nations. So, he was feeling good 
about that. He and Jack talked about that a bit. He talked 
about his feelings about Russia and about the world situation. 
I really cannot tell you any details because he talked in Chinese, 
of course. Jack spoke in English, but they understood each other 
very well without the interpreters. Chou, I think, knows a lot 
of English, did know a lot of English. Jack's Chinese is still 
pretty good. 

The only question he posed directly to me was about birth 


What did he ask? 


C. Service: He asked me about birth control in the United States, what we 

were doing. He must have known. It was just a question. But, 
I said, "Well, of course, we have all the methods. We're pushing 
it but not as hard as in China. It's more a personal choice in 
the United States." He said, "Well, here we have everything. We 
have all the birth control methods. We are very interested in 
birth control." 

I saw recently, just in the last two or three weeks, that 
China has done better in lowering its birth rate than any other 
third world country. 

Levenson: Extraordinary. 

C. Service: Yes. They have made remarkable strides. When we were back this 
last time [1975], one day we went out of the hotel and there were 
little pink paper streamers pasted on the walls near the Peace 
Hotel in Peking — had just been pasted up. They all had Chinese 
characters. I said, "Jack, what do these say?" He said, "Practice 
birth control." They all say, "Practice birth control," or "Don't have 
too many children." It was some little neighborhood group that 
decided it would have a little — 

Levenson: Drive. 

C. Service: Yes, a little drive, just to keep reminding people that they should 
continue to practice birth control. 

Anyway, Chou talked a little about birth control, but mostly 
his talk was a running commentary on his views of the world at 
that time. 

He spent three hours with us — a man who was carrying the 
Chinese foreign and internal policies on his shoulders! I can 
understand why we didn't know till the last minute we were going 
to see him. Several times Jack made a motion to go, but Chou 
talked on. You can't just leap up. So, finally about 8:00 o'clock, 
why, Jack did say that he thought we'd taken up enough of his time 
and we should be going. 

Levenson: Let me ask you some things, Caroline. When you came back from 

that first trip I heard that the talk with Chou En-lai was confiden 

C. Service: I don't know why. 

Levenson: Were there things that Chou En-lai said that were sensitive at the 

C. Service: Not to my knowledge. 


Levenson: And are not now? 

C. Service: No. I don't really think they were. I don't think he said any 
thing that couldn't have been published. I think that mainly it 
was the idea of Jack's coining back and giving a long interview 
and saying everything Chou said, which Jack couldn't have done. 
Jack did take notes. But, it was that kind of thing. Many other 
people did have interviews with Chou too, so — I think maybe this 
was Jack's method of protecting himself from being asked too much 
by people. As I recall there was nothing said that could not have 
been made public except you don't want to go shouting out of the 
room, "Oh boy, we had three hours with Chou En-lai, you see, and 
now we know a lot of things!" 1 think it was more that feeling. 

Levenson: Was there any chat about the good old days in the caves of Yenan? 

C. Service: They talked about some of the old friends. Chou asked about 

various Americans. He asked about Dave Barrett and he asked about 
Ray Ludden. He asked about various other people whom he had known. 
Yes, there was quite a lot of talk about that. It was nice. 

We felt so lucky and so really — I hate to use words like 
privileged and that kind of word because — but that's what we were. 
Chou didn't have to do it. You know, we had seen him at this 
other meeting. This could have sufficed. 

Well, it was in the paper the next day that we had seen him. 
The Chinese put that in. They take notes, shorthand notes, of 
everything. So, someplace in the Peking archives there must be 
notes of this meeting! It was in the paper the next day and we 
did leave the next night. At the train there were some foreign 
correspondents wanting to know what Chou had said to Jack and so 
on. Well, Jack said, "We just had a friendly talk." There was 
really nothing to say. Jack will remember more than I, of course, 
about this whole thing. 

Levenson: Yes, I'll talk with Jack about it. 

C. Service: Yes. 

Levenson: Chou at that time was well and outstandingly handsome, wasn't he? 

C. Service: Yes. Yes, he was. He was. 

Levenson: One of the handsomest men in the world, I thought. 

C. Service: He really was, and one of the most urbane, and considerate. 

Oh yes, when we were sitting there — this room had a thermostat 
in it — he noticed me pulling my coat around me or arranging my 


C. Service: shawl or something. He immediately turned to one of the little 
girls that were in attendance and told her to turn up the 
thermostat. He was conscious of what was going on. 

Also during this talk a little girl came in — when I say 
little girl, the attendants were all in their late teens or early 
twenties, but they looked like little girls with their pigtails 
and their cute little outfits — she came in with a pill for him, 
and she walked right up to him. She had a pill on a tray and a 
glass of water. She held it out and said something to him. He 
took the pill and he took the glass of water. Now, what the pill 
was for, who knows? But, she just marched in and marched out again. 
He stopped and he laughed. He sort of laughed and he looked at 
her and he took the pill. 

Levenson: In my interview with Professor Y[uen] R[en] Chao, I learned that 
Chou En-lai had wanted to be a student of Professor Chao's in 

C. Service: Did he? I did not know that. 

Levenson: But, at that time Professor Chao was interpreting for Bertrand 
Russell, and Chou En-lai went elsewhere. And 1 also learned 
that Chou was famous in small circles as a first class actress, 
Chou En-lai. He took female roles. 

C. Service: Well, that's interesting! 

Levenson: I have looked and looked at his face with those great eyebrows — 

C. Service: Yes. 

Levenson: — and the virility of it. But, I tried to peel the years off 
and look back to a delicate young student and 1 can't see it. 
But, apparently he was well known in student and university 
circles as an actress. [Laughter] 

C. Service: That's interesting because except for the bushy eyebrows, of 
course, he has a very — what should I. say — delicate face. 

Levenson: But, isn't that a nice little footnote to history? 

*See interview with Yuen Ren Chao, Chinese Linguist, Phonologist, 
Musician, and Author, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft 
Library, .University of California, Berkeley, 1977. 


C. Service: I think that's lovely. I think that's lovely. He was an 

extremely gracious, charming person. He made us feel that he 
really wasn't in a hurry and he must have had a million things 
to do. 

Levens on : Tha t ' s amaz ing . 

C. Service: This in itself is a sign of great sensitivity to other people. 
We did not see him when we went back in '75. He was very sick 
then, and you see he died in January, '76. He died about six 
months, seven months after we left Peking. He sent a message 
to us of greeting through Lao Hu of the Friendship Association. 
But, 1 do feel that I met one of the great statesmen, one of the 
great men, of this century, when I met him. 

To Hong Kong via Shanghai, Hang chow, and Canton 

C. Service: After we left Peking we went down — The rest of the trip was 
rather an anticlimax as you can Imagine. But, we traveled by 
train which we had wanted to do. We kept asking, "Can't we travel 
by train?" We wanted to see the countryside. So, we traveled 
by train to Nanking where neither of us had ever been — Jack may 
have been as a baby — and then to Shanghai where we had lived for 
two years in the thirties. 

Although Shanghai looks the same, the old foreign buildings 
are all there, everything looks the same in that sense, but there 
are no foreigners. Shanghai used to be a foreign city. In 
Shanghai, we saw no foreigners except a few who stayed at the 
hotel. It was astonishing because it always had been really a 
foreign city. 

Then, from there we spent two days, three days, at Hang chow. 
We had wanted to see a silk filature plant. We wanted to see 
how the cocoons are unwrapped and how the silk floss is taken 
off. So, they drove us way out in the country to see one of 
those places. 

Jack went to a large hydroelectric plant pretty far from 
Hangchow. I didn't go that day. I decided to rest. 

Sometimes I just said I wouldn't go because I was tired. 
I found that although our companions could plan anything, could 
plan our whole day for us, that if we said we wouldn't go we 
didn't have to go. 


C. Service: Wo always had a long lunch hour. They wanted us to rest from 
12:00 to 2:00 or to 2:10. We went out In the morning early, 
came hack, had lunch, then perhaps a nap, the afternoon out, 
and then dinner. Then, In the evening they somt-t lines would have 
entertainment for us, hut If we didn't want to do .something we 
didn't have to do it, because it was pretty strenuous, the whole 

Well, then when we were leaving Hangchow — we were flying 
again; we were going to Changsha — we took a plane. On the plane 
was a man named Mr. Charlie Davis. We had met Mr. Charlie Davis, 
who was a Canadian, in Shanghai. He had been in the hotel and 
we had talked to each other and introduced ourselves. He was on 
the plane. 

When we got to Nanch'ang — yes, N-a-n-c-h- ' -a-n-g — where the 
plane was making a stop, the weather was so terrible we could 
not go any further because they were flying, so far as I know, 
just flying, without instruments. I was very glad to get on 
the ground, 1 can tell you. We came down through soup. 

We stayed at Nanch'ang three hours. The plane had foreigners 
and a few Chinese; there were fourteen passengers, I think. They 
were all going to Canton except us. We were the only passengers 
bound for Changsha. 

So, after much talking back and forth we were told by the 
people running the plane that if we insisted on going to Changsha 
they would hold the plane over for a day, and they would make all 
the passengers stay over. They'd put us all up in a hotel and 
they'd try to get into Changsha the next day. 

Well, of course, at this point we said we would go on to 
Canton where we were going anyway and we would just forget about 
Changsha. The weather in Canton was fine, and so we flew off to 
Canton, and had two extra days there. 

But, I want to say something about Mr. Charlie Davis. Now, 
first of all, when we were in Peking, when we were talking to 
George Hatem, he said that prostitution had practically been wiped 
out in China and also venereal disease. Also, schistosomiasis, you 
know the thing — How do you pronounce that word, that liver fluke 

Levenson: I don't know but I know how to spell it! 

C. Service: That had been practically eliminated too. They were working on 
that. But, I said, "George, do you really think they've done 
away with prostitution?" He said that for the most part he 
thought they had. I said, "Well, what did they do with the 


C. Service: prostitutes?" He said, "Well, after the revolution these 

prostitutes — " Of course, there were thousands upon thousands; 
little girls who had been sold into slavery, been sold to people 
in Shanghai and other places. They were slaves. They were 
literally slaves, many of them. 

The government had simply taken them, the prostitutes, out 
to the countryside, and rehabilitated them. Most of them did get 
married. They got married eventually and were simply absorbed 
into the community and the society. There was no feeling against 
them. That's what George Hatem said. 

Mr. Charlie Davis and I at Nanch'ang airport — Jack was talking 
to somebody else — Mr. Davis and I set up a conversation. It turned 
out that he is a glove manufacturer. He had been coming to China 
for the past ten years. He had come all through the Cultural 
Revolution. He had brought his wife once. He'd had no problems. 
He was traveling alone. I said, "You don't have anybody with you?" 
He said he just went where he had to go and somebody, whoever was 
the business representative in that place, met him with a car and 
took care of him. But, he was used to traveling about China on 
his own, maybe only from Canton to Shanghai, Peking, whatever. 
I don't know. 

Then, he said, "Were you in China before the war?" I said, 
"Yes, we were." He said, "Well, tell me, is it true there was a 
lot of prostitution in Shanghai?" or "vice" maybe he said. I 
said, "One of Shanghai's biggest industries was vice, without any 
doubt. Gambling of all descriptions, prostitution, any kind of 
thing that you can name, it was going on in Shanghai, in the 
foreign concessions, everywhere." You know in the foreign 
concessions these underworld industries were outside of Chinese 

And I added, "But, I have been told by somebody who knows, 
in Peking, that there isn't any more prostitution now." Then, he 
laughed. He said, "Well, I'll tell you a story. That's probably 

"One day," he said, "I was walking on the Bund, not this trip 
but another trip, and I got into a conversation with a Danish 
seaman." And Mr. Davis asked him, "What do you do when you're 
here?" The Danish seaman said he didn't do anything, that Shanghai 
was the dullest port that they could possibly be in. No one could 
get a girl for love or money and the only thing that they could 
do was play chess or play cards in the seamen's club. (The old 
British consulate is now a seamen's club, for foreign seamen.) 
I laughed and I said, "If a sailor cannot find a girl, there must 
not be any to be had." 


Levenson: I think you're right. [Laughter] 

C. Service: Especially in a place like Shanghai. China has done a miracle 

in this— Whether it will stay this way or not, who knows? When 
China is open more and more to foreigners, when there's not quite 
such a desire to improve themselves, who knows? Things never stay 
the same. But, at this time this was so. 

After we got to Canton where it was warm and tropical we 
stayed three or four days, and then we went back to Hong Kong on 
November 10. 

Levenson: What was it like hitting Hong Kong after six weeks in China? 

C. Service: It was a shock. I can tell you it was a shock. After six and 
a half weeks in China, we had a real culture shock going back 
to Hong Kong. The noise, the bustle, the shouting, the fact that 
we also had to shift for ourselves. Nobody was going to care 
whether our bags were carried or not. We had to get the taxi. 
We had to do everything. Well, that's all right. But, I mean 
the noise, the noise in Hong Kong. China was quiet. 

Levenson: Even Canton? 

C. Service: Yes. Now, Canton is different from the rest of China because 

it has more foreign contact. We went to the Canton Trade Fair. 
But Canton is much quieter than Hong Kong. 

[end tape 1, side 2] 

The Press and Lin Piao 
[begin tape 2, side 1] 

C. Service: Of course, when we got to Hong Kong, why we were swamped with 
newspaper people, because although people had been going to 
China, Jack was one of the first to go back who had been invited 
back, who had been there before, and so on. There were all sorts 
of interviews and one thing and another. 

The question everybody asked us — this is interesting — was 
what happened to Lin Piao? Now, I might say that all the time we 
were in China nobody mentioned Lin Piao, but his pictures were 
still up. 

Levenson: Oh really? 

C. Service: When we went to Yenan his pictures were still there. Now, this was- 


Levenson : 
C. Service: 

Levenson : 
C. Servire: 

C. Servii-e 

How long was it after he crashed? 

I think September 10 was about the time he was supposed to have 
gone off and the plane crashed. But this was still not known. 


I think Jack did ask, "What about Lin Piao?" and so on. Nobody 
had ever given an answer. I don't suppose anybody knew, except 
that something had happened. But, they had not yet got around to 
taking his pictures down. In fact, Jack told a newspaper person 
[in Hong Kong] that nothing had happened to Lin Piao. He was 
wrong, but he didn't know that. 

But, there was no — Jack asked some of the foreigners. 
Nobody — It was as though — You could not have pierced — It 
was just opaque. There was no way to know what had happened to 
Lin Piao or if anything had happened. 

One of the first things Jack did in Hong Kong was to buy a 
recent magazine, printed in China, and it had Lin Piao's picture 
on the front — 

Extraordinary . 

— because the magazine had been printed and put out before Lin's 
defection. They hadn't been able to recall it. So, when he saw 
the picture, Jack came to the conclusion that nothing had 
happened to Lin Piao. But, of course something had. 

There was just no way in China — If anybody knew, they 
would never have told us. This is the kind of thing you do run 
up against in China. If the Chinese don't want you to know 
something you are probably not going to find it out, because of 
course they do not have a free press. They do not have people 
telling you things on television. In this sense you are in a 
very different society. You are in a closed society in this 

But, when I think about China I tell myself and I tell 
other people, I say to myself that I must not compare a system like 
that with our system. You cannot. Their history is so different. 

We are basically and essentially an extension of Western 
Europe, our civilization. Two hundred years we have had a country. 
But, our laws, our thoughts, our ethics, all those things have 
been fashioned by philosophers in Western Europe, by the Bible, 
by the Judeo-Christian religion, and by English common law, by the 
French Enlightenment, essentially, and some German philosophy too, 
by our Greek and Roman heritage. 


C. Service; 

Levenson : 
C. Service: 

C. Service; 

Levenson : 
C. Service; 

Levenson : 

C. Service; 

So, when you think of China it has got to be in terms of its own 
history, its own cultural development. China, I would say, has 
always been pretty much closed as far as anybody's knowing what 
the government is doing. It's true right now. Who knows what's 
going on in China right now? You get tricklings and inklings 
and that type of thing. 

But, what they have done for the people to me is a miracle; 
a miracle of bringing eight hundred million people from feudalism, 
from poverty, from starvation, into the modern world, but modern 
in their own way. One of the things we've held against China is 
that it hasn't become modern in our way. 

But, they certainly have come into the world, and they 
certainly are going to stand on their own feet without any doubt 
about it. As for the Chinese people, I think they're one of the 
most remarkable in the world. 

Now, I have a number of questions I've been saving up. 
Yes. That's my little speech! 

I'm glad you said that. You mentioned in that first reception 
with Chou En-lai a number of blacks. Was there any difficulty 
that you could perceive for blacks in China? 

No. No. Now, of course, I saw them only in the hotel. We all 
were there together. The dining room at the hotel was fascinating. 
It was a kind of a mini-UN because there were lots of people from 
Africa there, lots of Africans, you see, from the embassies now 
in Peking, and more so the second time we went. 

No, I could detect no feeling that the Chinese had against 
any of these people. Whether or not they had any I do not know. 
Well, after all whites — we're not the same race either. 

What was the old Chinese phrase — big nosed barbarians? 

Yes, well, right. Big nosed, yes, foreign devils. But, they don't 
call you that anymore. No, we did not notice anything. 

You told me that your relations with the press during the McCarthy 
period were not painful. How did you find 1970 's media involvement? 
I didn't catch you and Jack on television as much as I would have 
liked, but I know that you were swamped. Did this bother you? 

I have never been on television. It was Jack, 
persistent, and we had to tell them something, 
their job. 

They were very 
Sure, that was 


Levenson : Right . 

C. Service: One of the nicest people we met was a man, Arnold Abrams, who 

wrote for the Seattle Times and for the Kansas City gta£, I think. 
He wrote, what I consider, the most perceptive article about Jack 
that was written after we came out. Of all the people who wrote 
anything about Jack, our trip, I think what he wrote caught Jack 
and his experiences the best.* 

Second China Trip. 1975 

C. Service: What else? I'm sure there must be some things. I won't talk much 
about our second trip. We stayed three months and had a wonderful 
time. We lived in Peking and Jack borrowed a bicycle. But, the 
great experience was going back the first time. We hope to go 
back again, of course, sometime. 

We lived in Peking in 1975. This was lovely. We did some 
traveling. We went up through the Yangtze gorges, had a marvelous 
trip. We have seen a great deal of China. We haven't been to the 
northeast or to the northwest. We kept making sounds about want 
ing to go to Tibet. Whether we'll ever — 

Levenson: Oh my goodness. 

C. Service: Well, I don't think they'll take Jack since his heart attack 

[1976]. But people are going to Tibet now. They took [James] 
Schlesinger to Tibet. 

Levenson : Really? 

C. Service: Yes, and Lloyd Shearer, the man who puts out Parade magazine, his 
wife got to Tibet. He couldn't go because he had had a heart 
attack. The Chinese wouldn't take him. 

Our second trip was very relaxed. The Chinese seemed very 
relaxed, more so than the first time, in the sense — 

Levenson: Four years later. 

C. Service: Yes. The people were more relaxed. So, we came home thinking 
that the transition was all worked out with Teng Hsiao-ping. 
But, of course, it turned out it wasn't. They've had this upset 
this year, but now it seems to be falling into place and to be 
calmer, calming down. 

k See Appendix 7. 


C. Service: 

C. Service; 

But, certainly when we went in the summer of '75, we had a feeling 
that things were in good shape and just going along in a kind of 
calm way. There again, it is hard to know what's going on under 
the surface in China in political things. I am not particularly 
interested in politics in this sense, so many things escape me. 

I do not think the foreigners who live in China know very 
much either. They just live there. They have a very good life. 
They're treated extremely well by — I'm not talking just about 
Americans; I'm talking about all the foreigners — by the Chinese. 
They nearly all have jobs, but they're paid at a higher wage level 
than Chinese are because Chinese do not believe that foreigners 
can possibly live the way Chinese live. They can't. They have 
more privileges in many ways. They can travel. The people who 
live there see much more than the people in the embassies. But, 
what they know about the real workings, internal workings, of 
China, I don't know. I would doubt if they know very much. 

Is there anything more you want to say about your trips to China? 

Well, there are lots of little things I could talk about, the fact 
that to buy any cotton cloth, even foreigners must have coupons. 
There are lots of little things. 

One day we went shopping. We picked out some nice cotton 
cloth. We said, "We'll take it." Jack was with me. We were by 
ourselves and he and the girl were talking Chinese. She folded 
the cloth up and said we couldn't have it because we didn't have 
any coupons. [Chuckle] So, we looked astonished and left. Later 
we got some coupons from the Friendship Association. 

I could ride anywhere around Peking in a taxi. I once rode 
on a bus with Pat Adler. It was easy to do. I really do not 
speak Chinese at all, but I know a few isolated words and I could 
say where the hotel was. You know, when we were there the second 
time we didn't do very much. Jack went out on his bicycle. I 
went walking. We read or we wrote letters or we went to see friends, 

We saw the tunnels in Peking this second time, the tunnels 

Levenson: Oh yes, the air raid shelters. 

C, Servicej Yes. They were absolutely fantastic. You can't believe it. 

You go in a little shop, the floor slides open, and you go down 
steps and there you're in a whole new world. 

Levenson: That's a poignant waste of resources for a country that's struggling 
so hard. 


C. Service: Yes, except that they've used the soil other places. They've made 
a hill in a new park! Everybody in China is working. They do some 
make-work, obviously. But, there's nobody who does not have a job. 
Everybody belongs to some organization. 

The one thing you cannot do in China, you cannot drop out of 
society. You cannot opt out. There are a few people always who 
are leaving through Canton and who get out to Hong Kong who don't 
want to stay in what I could call such a controlled society. But 
for most Chinese the new society has brought them such benefits 
that they do not find the control onerous. 

Also, there's always the hope it will be easier, which it 
probably will be. They have now got enough food. They're 
practically self-sufficient in food for their country. We went 
way down to the Burma border on this last trip. They're intro 
ducing coffee trees, rubber trees, to see how they will do. 

Everybody is working, but they're not doing grinding toil. 
In other words, no matter how hard they work they have time off, 
they have enough food, they do not work at the pace that Westerners 
work. This is something we all noticed. They do not walk so fast. 
They just walk at a slower, evener pace. They don't rush at things. 

This bothers a lot of Westerners. They say, "Why don't they 
work faster? Why don't they go faster? Why are they leaning on 

their hoes looking at you?" Of course, they want to see you. 
H-o-e-s, that is. [Laughter] 

Levenson: I can spell it! 

C. Service: I think the Chinese smile a lot. You hear people say they never 
smile. Well obviously, if they're staring at somebody, wanting 
to see what they're like, they're not going to smile. But, they 
smile at each other. They always smile when they're talking to 
you. They have a very pleasant smiley look on their faces. 

I thought to myself, "Do I walk down the street in Berkeley 
smiling hither and yon?" Of course, I don't. I'm usually concen 
trating on what I'm going to do, thinking. I don't even see 
people I know. I'm certainly not smiling at people I see on the 
street. So, why should the Chinese smile at foreigners they see 
on the street? This is ridiculous. 

Levenson: Sure. 

C. Service: If you have any business to do with any of them, they're perfectly 
polite and helpful, extremely helpful. But, foreigners do get a 
distorted view, especially foreigners who have not seen the old 


C. Service: China. I do not know why. I still think it's sort of the White 
Man's Burden. You know, the Chinese are supposed to be grateful 
because we're there, which is just to my mind the end of nonsense. 

It's true! They do think this. You know, we're doing the 
Chinese a great favor by coming. This is ridiculous. No more. 
In that sense they don't need us. We can just lay that burden 
down! [Laughter] 

They have only Sundays off, but I noticed the Swiss have 
just voted against having a forty hour week. They're going to 
continue their forty-eight hour week. Now many Americans think, 
"Oh, how awful if you don't have both Saturday and Sunday off!" 
The Chinese have Sunday off. They do work a six day week. But, 
they only work about seven hours a day, except maybe in the communes 
in the harvest season, times like that. Some of them have their 
days off during the week. They do stagger the week. 

So, there are all kinds of things. Life is simply easier. 
It Is much easier for them. But, certainly the Chinese are one 
of the most industrious people in the world, and if they need to 
work they do. 

Take the Tangshan earthquake. They refused outside aid for 
this. We've heard from all our friends in Peking since the earth 
quake. A lot of buildings there had a lot of damage done to them, 
and our friends have had to move out of the Peace Hotel. 

Levenson: In Peking? 

C. Service: In Peking. The Peace Hotel where we lived, our friends who lived 

there have been moved out into other places because the Peace Hotel 
was pretty well damaged. It was an old Chinese home really, various 
compounds and big heavy roofs and not built to withstand earthquakes. 
Sol and Pat Adler, and Rose Smith, a wonderful Englishwoman in her 
eighties, lived at the Peace Hotel. We became, Rose and we, very 
good friends. She loaned me Olive Schreiner's Story of an African 
Farm, which I had never read. 

Strange thing is when we lived in China in the thirties nobody 
ever mentioned earthquakes. I don't understand it. Japan had 
earthquakes, not China. But China has had earthquakes through the 
centuries. Terrible ones. 

They do have a very good warning system. This last trip 
[1975], we were going to the Red Flag Canal. We were told maybe 
we couldn't go because there had been some earthquake warnings. 
Well, then we did go because the warnings had stopped. But, they 
would not have taken us if they had thought that there was going 
to be an earthquake. 


C. Service: Well, I could ramble on indefinitely, but 1 want to tell 

about our companion and guide on this second trip. We had only 
one. Comrade Wu Shih-llang, a forty-three year old woman who 
spoke beautiful English. And she was n beautiful person In every 
way. She came every morning to spend an hour with Jack reading 
the papers. Then if I needed her for shopping or to go to the 
hospital — I had several back treatments, not acupuncture, but 
electric current ones — she would go with me. If we went on some 
special excursion of course she went along. We saw her maybe 
thirteen or fourteen hours a week, hardly ever on the weekends. 
She had another job besides helping us as she was secretary to a 

When we traveled for four weeks she went with us; and then 
of course we were together all the time, even to the extent of 
sharing the same train compartment at night when only one was 
available. A more pleasant, agreeable, helpful companion cannot 
be imagined. There was never a word of dissension between us. 
Jack and I both grew to love her. 

At Changsha I had a very bad sore throat and I was too tired 
to visit Mao's birthplace at Shao Shan. Shih-liang, as we called 
her, found me sitting on my bed, the tears rolling down my face 
with fatigue. She put her arms around me and said, "You don't 
have to go. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do." 
And she stayed with me in Changsha while Jack went to Shao Shan. 
She answered a letter I wrote to her after we left China.* 

Some Reflections and Recollections 

C. Service: Now, here is another thing. People ask me would I like to go 

and live in China. No, I would not like to go and live in China 
permanently because I am not Chinese. I've mentioned that a good 
number of foreigners do live there. But, I am not prepared to 
make my life in China. But, I would enjoy living in China a year. 
I would like to live there a year, but I don't think that will 
ever happen. But, to pull up my roots and go to live in China, 
no. That I would not want to do. 

I think it will be a long time before China is really a 
place where foreigners can just come and go at will, and rightly 
so. The Chinese have had enough of foreign domination, especially, 
what, since 1840. They have to, I think, feel a sense of absolute 
independence before they will want to have people wandering around 
in their country, before they will hand out visas right and left. 

See Appendix 8 for New York Times article by C.S. 


C. Service: 


C. Service: 


C. Service: 

I think one of the reasons they got rid of the Russians — and 
I don't know much about that — is because they felt the Russians 
were in the process of trying to take over China. 


Or make themselves Just sort of above the law, the way foreigners 
had always lived in China. The Chinese won't have this anymore; 
any more than we. would have it. 

I would like to ask you about the relations between the "China 
hands." You mentioned to me once — and perhaps you don't want 
this in the transcript — that when E.J. Kahn's book, The China 
Hands , came out none of you had talked to each other about it. 

Yes, that's quite true. We didn't. I think all of us perhaps 
felt a little embarrassed about — Now, I can only give you my 
own thoughts. I don't like so much to be known. I don't like 
to be so exposed maybe. Now, this is silly because really there's 
nothing in the book that I should bother about, and nobody 
remembers what they read about somebody else. So, this is a 
false kind of modesty on my part, a false feeling. 

Levenson: I don't see it that way. 

C. Service: You don't? Well, all right. Jack says, "Forget about it. Nobody 
cares." Well, it's true nobody cares, and the book was very fair, 
and very good to all of us, but I guess I care. Maybe I just 
don't like that much publicity. 

But, if you're asking about the feelings among the China 
hands, we're all good friends. I do not believe any of us has 
ever fallen out with anybody else. We are devoted to each other. 
I would say Jack and John Davies and Edmund Clubb, and John Carter 
Vincent, and John Emmerson and John Melby and Ray Ludden have 
great respect and fondness for each other. John Carter Vincent 
died before the great State Department luncheon, but Betty came 
to it. 

The only person mentioned in the book who was not simpatico 
with them and who I do not think liked them all was Everett 
Drumright. Everett Drumright comes pretty well out of the book. 
But, he was never a person that the others liked very much anyway, 
nor he they. 

Now, when I say this I do not wish to do quarrel with Everett 
Drumright. He's a perfectly nice chap, but he was always, he was 
always, well, should 1 say, on the Taiwanese side? No. Nobody 
thought in terms of Taiwan in those days. He just didn't like 

what the rest of them were writing. 
Drumright that well. 

I don't know. I don't know 


C. Service: But, as for the people who were pilloried, who were hurt by 
McCarthy, they have maintained always an enormous amount of 
respect and friendship for each other. 

Levenson: One of the things that has impressed me is the fact that you 

remained friends with people like the Rices and the Greens whose 
careers escaped. 

C. Service: But, of course! Ed Rice was an old friend from Peking days. He 
was a language student when Jack was. So, we have known Ed 
forever. He married later. We've known Mary though ever since 
she married Ed. But, they have always been the most loyal of 
friends. Ed did escape because he happened not to be in a place 
where he would have had to make these reports. He himself was 
surprised that he escaped. But, he did. But, he has always 
been a very warm friend and supporter of all of the others. And 
Phil Sprouse and the Freemans have been too. Jack lived with 
Phil Sprouse one of the times he was in Washington alone. 

Now, the Greens — The Greens are a case apart. The Greens 
we met in Wellington [New Zealand]. Lisa and Marshall were 
young. He was a third secretary. Lisa, who married at seventeen, 
was about twenty-one or twenty-two at that time. Lisa and I have 
been very close friends since New Zealand. She is fifteen and a 
half years younger than I. 

Our correspondence which I've talked about earlier has been 
a source of great comfort to me and great solace. Also, for both 
Lisa and me it is an outlet. No matter what else is happening we 
can sit down and write each other a letter. 

Now, the Greens had no reason in the world to do as much as 
they haye for Jack and me, except out of pure friendship. The 
Greens have been steadfast in their friendship, as have many, many 
other people. Now, if you'll turn the recorder off a minute I'll 
get something out. 

[Tape off] 

C. Service: I told Lisa in my last letter that I was doing an oral history 
and that I was using the letters that I'd written her and which 
she'd returned to me as a help to my memory. (We have returned 
each other's letters since 1950.) She writes: 

I can glad -if our letters served to refresh 
your memory. If I did not have you to write to 
I would explode like a pressure cooker. All 
these years you have been my safety valve -in 
life. There is no other person in my life who 
could have given me this relief and pleasure 
and comfort. 


1 ' ^. .*'•'' 




o - 


C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

C. Service: 

Now, this is what the letters have been to both of us. We have 
formed a friendship which has meant — I can't imagine not writing 
to Lisa now. There are some things we don't agree on. But we 
don't have to agree. There are some interests we don't share in 
common. But there are many we do. We both like to read a lot 
and we write about the books we read. In fact, this letter has 
got quite a lot about Edith Wharton in it. Our lives have been 
quite different since Jack and I left the Foreign Service. But, 
that has nothing to do with our friendship. It's something which 
long since has become an integral part of our lives. 

Then, I could name any number of other friends who have been 
wonderful to us. Our families too, and I've not said much about 
my sisters. But, my sisters have helped me a great deal. Our 
parents I've mentioned a lot. Both of our fathers died, you see, 
before the worst happened. In fact, Jack's father died long ago. 
My father died before Jack was fired. But, both of our mothers 
were staunch people and my sisters, Jack's brothers, our sisters 
[in-law] and brothers-in-law, all of them. I can't express how 
important it has been to us, but it's there. And our children — all 
of them. 

Well, Rosemary, I've said a lot and I'll go over these tapes. 
Some things I'll have to change because my memory is not always 
that correct. We are now sixty-seven years old. Jack has been 
through a bad heart attack. But, in fact, the last five years 
Jack has had a kind of a renaissance in his life, hasn't he? 

Yes, it has been beautiful. 

Yes, it has been. As many people have said to us, isn't it wonder 
ful to still be alive and see it happen? It is. 


We couldn't have imagined it would happen either. We thought, 
"Well, all right, history will vindicate Jack." But, he's already 
been vindicated. He doesn't have to wait for history. 

Jack didn't come in, did he? 


Because he wants to take his heart pill. He forgot to take it this 
morning. That's all right. I'll write something out perhaps that 
we can add to this. 

We have had a wonderful five years since our first China trip. 
We have had an amazing time. I think that our life — generally 
speaking, we've had a good life. When I think of the tragedies, 


C. Service: such as we were talking about this morning [off the tape], we 

have not had anything like that. We have not lost our children 
or our grandchildren. We have not had any terrible illness. 
Jack's heart attack yes. But, if I had to make an evaluation, 
we've had tough times but not half so tough as many people have 
had in this world. Well, I think that's enough now. 

[end tape 2, side 1] 


Old Age, peeping round the corner, 

Beckons softly with her hand; 

I take the out-stretched fingers gently, 

And glance ahead — 

To see where I am being led. 

Then towards the mirror or my mina 

I turn my eyes and look behind 

To husband, children, family, friends — 

Each image with the next one blends. 

A small hand is reaching out, 

It beckons softly too; 

I take the out-stretched fingers gently — 

For dancing there inside of me, 

Is the little girl I used to be. 

written June 2 & 3, 1974, at age 64* 


The Human Race, The Human Race 
Marooned all together on an Island in Space; 
And for all we know, there's no other place, 
For the Human Race, the Human Race. 

So let's stop killing and saving face, 
And try to join hands with a friendly grace- 
As we move towards a future we can all embrace, 
And a decent life for the Human Race. 

Caroline Service 
Written in Hawaii 
July, 1967 


by Caroline Service 

A 1977 postscript: On May 29, 1977, Jack was given an honorary Doctorate 
of Law by our alma mater, Oberlin College. Our three children came to Oberlin 
to be with us . They had also all been present at the Foreign Service luncheon 
given January, 1973, in the Department of State, in honor of the Foreign Service 
officers who were the "Old China Hands," many of whom had been so shabbily 
treated during the McCarthy heyday. No one at this luncheon could have believed 
twenty years earlier, that such a tremendous event would ever take place. Barbara 
Tuchman and Jack were the speakers , and they spoke for all who had a difficult 
time, and for all who had stood with them to bring about this miraculous day. 

Transcriber and final typist: Teresa Allen 



Life in a People's 



Two Trips 

Caroline and John S. Service at the 
Temple of Heaven in Peking, 1978. 

T N December 1905 Bob and 
'• Grace Service, parents of 
my husband, John S. Service, with 
their three-month-old daughter, 
[Virginia, arrived in Shanghai from 
the United States. On January 17, 
1906 they set off on the long trip 
pp the Yangtze to Chengtu in Sze- 
':huan province, where Bob Serv- 
1 ce was to be a YMCA secretary. 
iThey traveled by steamer to the 
3ig mid-river port, Hankow, then 
fook another steamer, the Kiang-O 
:o Ichang, a city at the eastern 
ptrance to the Yangtze gorges, 
prom there they continued upriver 
v Dy houseboat. Following are Grace 
jjervice's reminiscences of the 
louseboat trip, collected from 
etters and diaries. 

We went on board our house 
boat at Ichang on February 16. 
The next morning, amid a great 
din of the crew, a cock was killed 
and held so that its blood ran 
down on the prow of the boat. 
Then, as soon as it was light 
enough to see, the boat cast off. 

Trackers were to haul the 
three houseboats in our convoy 
by long plaited bamboo ropes. 
The constant pulling of the ropes 
across rocks on many points of 
the shore had worn deep grooves 
in the hard limestone. A certain 
complement of trackers went 
with each boat, the captain hiring 
others to assist at rapids and 
places of peril and difficulty. 
The boat crew slept and ate in 




front of the craft. The captain 
and his family lived in the rear. 
We were in between and put up 
our own cot beds. Cooking was 
done on a small charcoal brazier 
in a tiny kitchen. 

Very soon we fell into a reg 
ular routine, tending the baby, 
looking at the scenery, writing 
letters, and continually marvel 
ing at the handling of the boat, 
the vistas of the river, and the 
daily life of our Chinese com 
panions. The gorges of the Yang 
tze are magnificent. In a house 
boat we were so near the water 
that there was more realization 
of the power and sweep of the 

It sometimes took hours to 
round a turn in the cliffs, so 
sharp that one could see no open 
ing for the river's course. In a 
steamer this corner might be 
behind one in half an hour and 
its passing not seem the achieve 
ment it did under man power, 
with the long lines of pullers on 
the ropes pitting every ounce of 
their strength against the force 
of the stream. 

In some places there were no 
paths for the trackers and they 
sat on the forepart of the boat, 
or they rowed feverishly to gain 
on the current as their yells and 
cries resounded from cliff tops 
lost in clouds. A strange hush 
often lay over the oily-looking 
water in places where no sound 
ing had ever recorded its depth. 

khutang Gorgel £J; 

I Killing Gorge | 


The Yangtze River Gorges 

We had little sun on our way 
through the gorges. 

rFHE SERVICES' trip was mark 

ed by tragedy: the death of 

their baby. Grace Service wrote: 

When we had almost reached 
the west end of the gorges, a 
week out of Ichang, Virginia be 
came ill. During the baby's ill 
ness we were traversing that 
section of the river with the 
worst rapids. Now one can 
hardly imagine the scenes of 
those days: the roar and surge of 
the wild waters, often rising in 
high waves at the crest of the 
rock barrier; the yells of the 
men, stimulating the trackers to 
greater efforts with voice and 
whip; the long lines of tracking 
men, fairly lying on the ground 
(or so it seemed at times) as they 
bent far over and clutched rocks 
and earth to aid them; the ropes 
of immense length (frequently 
the trackers were out of sight 
around the rocky points), laid in 
certain ways found most efficient 
by the long-experienced pilots; 
the signals of the drums to the 
trackers far ahead; the appear 
ance of the boats as they came up 
to their crucial trial in sur 
mounting the rise of the water in 
front of them. 

All my thoughts of that time 
are forever blended with the 
sounds of rushing water, of the 
hiss of the crisp surge against the 
thin wooden sides of cur boat, of 

Scenes in the Yangtze Gorges — Chutang Gorge and 
Hsiling Gorge (above) and Wuhsia Gorge (right). 

looking out when caring for the 
sick child and seeing into the 
heart of a vicious whirlpool, or 
rocks with seething water half 
disclosing their wicked-looking 
points near the side of our 
craft — of a feeling of man's 
utter impotence, and the irresist 
ible power of the wild river. 

Perhaps it was as well for us 
that we had not time to spend in 
worry for our safety. We thought 
only of our baby and of caring 
for her. When the men burned 
incense, laid out new ropes with 
much care and ceremony, under- 
girded the ship with heavy bam- 

in her basket with lighted candles 
close by. The next day the boat 
captain went by land across a 
bend in the river and bought a 
little Chinese coffin for us. 

That night as we were going to 
bed I happened to feel Bob's 
hand. It was terribly hot as it 
rested on the side of the bed. I 
told him he must have a fever 
and he reluctantly agreed. Still 
more trackers were hired until 
they overcrowded the boat and 
slept even on its roof. I lived in 
a daze. My husband lay ill on 
the bed; our baby in her coffin 
in the same little room. 

The houseboat on which Bob and Grace Service 
traveled up the Yangtze from Ichang in 1906. 

boo cables to prevent its stern 
being pulled off by the weight of 
water pressing back on the 
summit of a rapid, we gave all 
these details but scant attention. 

We hurried to Wanhsien hop 
ing to catch the new doctor for 
the American Methodist Mission 
in Szechuan. However, he had 
left with the China Inland 
Mission folk of Yunnan in order 
to help them with a sick child. 
So we made all haste to Chung 
king, engaging extra trackers and 
pushing on as fast as possible. 

Still, our Virginia was never to 
see that city. On the 4th of 
March, a Sunday, she died at 
eight in the evening. I washed 
and dressed her and we put her 

On the morning of March 10, 
seven and a half weeks after leav 
ing Shanghai, and 22 days from 
Ichang, the Services arrived in 
Chungking. The baby's funeral 
was held that same afternoon with 
only Grace and a few missionaries 
attending. Bob was too ill to go. 
The little coffin was lowered into 
the grave somewhat askew, and 
one of the men present jumped 
down to straighten it. Grace 
wrote: "I had felt a terrible numb 
ness for days since my first vio 
lent weeping and the beginning of 
Bob's illness. But that friendly 
little act started my tears." 

Finally, on May 10, 1906 Bob and 
Grace Service arrived in Chengtu, 


Trackers hauling the boat upriver 
against the rushing current. 

where they were to live until 1921 
and where their three sons were 

T N May 1975 my husband and 
I had the opportunity to 
make the same trip. On Monday 
morning the 12th we drove to the 
bund in Hankow, still dominated 
by the buildings of its foreign 
heyday, where our ship, the 
Dongfanghong (East is Red) No. 32, 
was waiting. It was a handsome 
modern ship, painted white, with a 
back-raked superstructure, and 
looking to be between 1,500 and 
2,000 tons. Our cabins were just 
below the bridge deck. Directly 
under the bridge was a comfortable 
lounge with a dining table and 
chairs, and several large overstuff 
ed easy chairs which we turned 
to face the windows giving us a 
180 degree view of the sweep of 
the river. Between meals we used 
the dining table for card games, 
Chinese chess, tea drinking, letter 
and postcard writing and reading. 
But most of the time we walked 
on the deck outside our lounge, or 
looked out the windows at the 
unwinding scene before us. 

Our cabins were very comforta 
ble. Each had a bed, a washstand, 
a chest of drawers, a small desk, 


•^w • 

and two chairs. Hooks and hangers 
. were against the walls. Candy, tea 
with the usual thermos of hot 
water, and fruit were on the desk. 
The showers and toilets were in 
small, separate rooms. 

The river above Hankow is wide 
and wandering — through several 
lakes — and calm-appearing. The 
day was hazy and the whole wat 
ery scene, with occasional steam 
boats, tugs and barges, and small 
junks with sails, had a rather 
dream-like quality. In the late 
afternoon a drizzly rain com 
menced which, with a sort of low- 
lying fog, obscured the river and 
its banks. Our ship slowed down 
and every so often we would hear 
the muffled sound of the foghorn. 

Shortly after we sailed the cap 
tain appeared, accompanied by the 
Communist Party secretary, and 
by the purser, a tall, strongly-built 
and very pleasant-faced woman. 
Jack told the captain that this was 
his 12th Yangtze River trip, the 
last having been downriver in 
1923. We were told that we were 
the first foreigners to make the 
upstream trip. 

We asked the captain some 
questions about his ship. It was 
built in 1958, is of medium size, 
has 2,400-horsepower twin diesel 
engines, and twin screws, and a 
draught of about two and a half 
meters. It normally carries about 
1,000 passengers, but right then 
had about 800. There are sleeping 
accommodations for about 500 to 
take care of overnight passengers 
(many of the travelers are day 
passengers between small ports of 
call). Food is provided for all. 

Once settled, we quickly made 
ourselves at home. Breakfast, for 
eign style for us, was served at 
7:30; lunch and dinner, always 
Chinese (our preference) were serv 
ed at noon and at six o'clock, with 
tea in between, or all day long if 
we wished. To care for our needs 
rwere three young men and four 
young women, all very helpful and 

pleasant. When they had free time 
they joined us in gazing at the 
scenery, pointing out various land 
marks and rivermarks. 

When we wakened Tuesday 
morning the river had narrowed. 
The flat land was giving way to 
hills, the dikes became banks, and 
mountains could be seen in the 
distance. At nine in the evening 
we reached Ichang. 

Wednesday morning Jack was 
up at 3:30 to see the ship start 
through the first gorge, a scene 
well-remembered from his boy 

The gorges of the Yangtze wind 
and twist through the Tapa Moun 
tains which form a great barrier 
between the coastal plains and the 
fertile basin of Szechuan province. 
They narrow to canyons with sheer 
rock walls, and then widen into 
valleys, with small villages, scat 
tered houses, terraced fields, and 
occasional citrus orchards dotting 
the rising flanks of their walls. 
Some of the fields are at least 300 
meters or more up trie hillsides. 
The houses are generally of two 
or three stories, some with plain, 
often austere, fagades and roofs, 
others with the high curved eaves 
of Szechuan. 

1VAVIGATION through the 
Yangtze gorges has been 
enormously improved in recent 
years. The more treacherous 
rapids have been modified by 
blasting out hazardous rocks and 
shoals; the channel has been 
widened and straightened wher 
ever possible; and navigation aids 
have been multiplied and stand 
ardized. Triangular buoys, fastened 
to small skiffs, mark the river 
channel every hundred meters or 
so. In the narrow sections of the 
gorges, where the channel may be 
the entire width of the river, these 
markers are on the canyon walls. 
The marking buoys are white on 
the north side of the river and red 
on the south side, with similar 
colored lights at night. Each 
marker is inspected every day. 

In addition to these channel 
markers there are direction arrows 
high on the cliffs in the narrow 
gorges where the river makes such 
sharply-angled bends that the 
view ahead is blocked. The arrows 
are controlled by what I called 
"arrow-keepers", people who live 
in small cottages beside the tall 
staffs. When the arrow points up, 
upriver traffic has the right of 
way; when down, the downriver 

On its way through the Yangtze gorges a riverboat receives a 
salute from one of the light crews that makes its passage safe. 



traffic. If two ships approach the 
blind bend at the same time, the 
downriver boat on the swift cur 
rent takes precedence. We were 
told that our ship makes an aver 
age of 17 kilometers an hour going 
upstream, and usually takes a little 
over four days to reach Chungking 
from Hankow. The same down 
river trip takes only about two and 
a half day. 

We noted that our ship gave a 
long-short-long horn blast as a 
warning to small boats that a ship 
was approaching and that it slowed 
down whenever it neared smaller 
boats so as not to rock them or 
hinder their progress unduly. 
Later Jack mentioned this to the 
captain who smiled, as much as to 
say that it was the custom now. 

The ship was equipped with two 
powerful searchlights which played 
on the gorge walls, lighting the 
river, the rock walls, and the stony 
banks like a football field at night. 

On Wednesday we traversed the 
three most spectacular gorges. 
The canyon walls, rising sheer from 
the water to heights of anywhere 
from 400 to 600 meters and more, 
shoot up as bare rock from the 
swift-flowing water; and then 
above and beyond the rock walls 
rise the green-clothed mountains 
1,500 meters and more in height. 
In these narrow defiles the water 
rushes deep and swift and menac 
ing. We could see the old tracker 
trails cut into the perpendicular 
walls above us. Those tracks 
where endless numbers of men 
used to strain their muscles, their 
hearts, their lungs, indeed their 
very lives out to pull the enormous 
old junks up the dangerous river. 

Occasionally a limpid blue-green 
side stream would enter the 
Yangtze from a small side gorge 
and mingle its clear waters with 
the frothing brown torrent of the 
great river. Over the side streams 
small bridges, some covered, had 
been built long ago for the 

When we awoke on the morning 
of the 15th we were tied up at 
Wanhsien, the town where Jack's 
parents so desperately hoped to 
get medical help for their baby 
daughter. It was easy to imagine 
that the sight of this gray old city, 

clinging to its steep rock walls 
must have filled them with fore 
boding. Even today it has the look 
of an oldtime fortress, not unlike 
some of the old fortress towns in 
Europe. The high buildings rise 
from equally high stone founda 
tions seemingly springing from the 
rock itself. An amazingly wide 
stone stairway leads from the river 
bank to the main street, high above 
the river at this time of year. 

Our ship stayed at Wanhsien 
until late morning when we left 
for Chungking. At three in the 
afternoon we were invited to the 
bridge by the captain. It was a 
fine modern place with all sorts of 
up-to-date equipment: radar, 
depth indicator, and radiotele 
phone between ship and shore and 
between ships. The helmsman was 
guided by a pilot using finger 
signals standing to the left of him. 
On the right of the helmsman stood 
another man with binoculars, but 
who, when we were there, was 
watching the river closely with his 
eyes. We were told that the ship 
carried six pilots, and that they 
worked one hour on and one hour 
off during their shifts. The cap 
tain, a fine-looking big man, wore 
what I call English-style trousers, 
an open-necked shirt, and leather 
sandals. On the way back to our 
quarters we went to the ship's 
store where candy, cigarettes, 
handkerchiefs, toilet articles, ball 
point pens, and such like could be 

Friday, May 16, our last day on 
the river, we woke to a pale gray 
misty morning which soon turned 
sunny. The scene had become rural 
with villages and fields and farm 
animals along the banks. The wild 
and rugged gorges were behind us. 
We docked at Chungking at 12:50. 
As we were driven to the Chung 
king guest house off to the right 
we could see a large television 
tower gracing a hill, not unlike the 
tower we see on Twin Peaks in 
San Francisco. 

HIS is Grace's description of 
the city as it appeared in 1906: 

Chungking occupies a high, 
rocky promontory between two 
rivers, the Yangtze and the 
Chialing. There were then, in 

1906, no wheeled vehicles inside 
the walls nor within sight of 
them. The city streets were 
narrow, crowded, dark, smoky, 
full of jostling people; pigs and 
dogs scuttled and scrapped 
underfoot, horses climbed the 
steep stone steps like goats. All 
water for domestic and other use 
had to be carried up from the 
two rivers by coolies using 
shoulder poles and large wooden 
buckets. At each of the city 
gates long files of these water 
men could be seen: some were 
privately-hired servants, others 
sold their loads to a specified 
clientele or to any chance buyer. 
The hundreds of roughly-paved 
stone steps at the gates were 
always wet from slopping water 
pails, and everywhere on the 
streets one saw signs of water 

Many so-called streets were 
nothing but slits between high 
walls; often a street consisted 
merely of a narrow flight of stone 
steps, many of these cut from 
living rock. On these confined 
thoroughfares the open shop 
fronts displayed every sort of 
activity and employment as well 
as the goods produced. Weaving, 
tailoring, brass work, black- 
smithing, and a thousand occupa 
tions were carried on in public 
view, while innumerable food 
shops and itinerant 'tuck shops', 
carried on shoulder poles, tempt 
ed the hungry. Their odors were 
often appetizing, but rancid 
grease, smoking oil, and burning 
peppers frequently put forth such 
pungency as nearly to stifle one. 
And over and through all these 
mingled smells was to be detected 
the inescapable odor from hun 
dreds of open and totally un 
screened latrines. 

Today Chungking is full of 
paved streets, with traffic police 
and traffic lights, and glass-fronted 
shops. There is a piped water 
system and an underground sew 
age system. Gone are the water 
carriers and the stifling odors of 
all sorts, and gone are the old 
walls. The widening of the streets 
and the disappearance of the walls, 
in part due to the heavy bombing 
which Chungking sustained during 
the Japanese war, have helped 
create a modern city on the ancient 
rocky promontory. This Chung 
king is centuries removed from the 
medieval city to which the Services 
came in 1906. 


W <u^^- /I / .' A ^ 23A 
^1 -^_4-^-L-iLILl c "^ 

APPENDIX I- . . ,. . 

••'••' «• • , r •'•>••' '• ' V M ). ; '*V. j ' 

lerican Embaay , .-/ Peking" '. December^ 

. Ajnbassdoar ^ \';",/'.^ Nelson Trusler Johnson » ,c 

Counselor. .;,,. > JPBB J K P . ^ookhart ^ 'o^t 

> • • • '. f r .,:• 

. Pirat Spcretary, George R. Worrell, - 

• '- • -V/rUrto ''i-^-^. ::••(••'• •.'•••.•'! «!."••/*«•«».? : «. »i * ' 

i '.' ; i ?.,f®T • V ,si' '.v.j'l.; 21 ^ 8 Opldsborough - (>»Lk ^I^CU^L •> V. 

I f-', '.^ 'SJ!^!! ^ h J? ere , w ^*y >/.j ]i W 

bhy 3t. Clair whom we i\ •••• 

Duncan 'was the most ..«••£ •* 

i, M Kay Todd eventually married , , ). 

i. Phil Sprouse did not become 

^^n.^ 1 ^^ 

- ' r*\ ,*«.-•****•• . i- //i/ / ft — r •• ' «..' 4 '^ < 

ti* ; v4 ' ' 7t'^** jL / < ^Ti T * k *>^-> 4<«**-U-**( ^ c^~ T \JL« ytv* U^C^u' jOKiutAj^ . . 
. . ,; v'.. ^Looking at the aoove list it ±W hA-rfl -kA'>>oi-< a "'•'.' 

M *.' "T-. ".«" >-Capt, Edwin .Sutherland was a 
If '»'' V \ v ?V '.*,>» t s j/ .f ^d Wa6 th,e military, a 

/•/.'. 5,ji *'" •' f'. • > i^f ^ *KXX^XJCKX tWO 

>v '. l;'f !V : N »: .*4..j ,*.,^^- 

' v ••'•^««. .'.•«.- r . -.... A ' *: ••'. -?d>i_ 


the Aray 

the Asst - " 

i a Karine lan suaee • student- 
was an Army, language student. 


military, attache and where they lived, : 
aa^Ki two doifrs 5>om us pn Eatendone ' 

TiuUc, ' 

C/ * 
; tHft-v^ 



January lU, l?fiO 

Dearest' I. other: 

"v I ar. very distressed to hear about Father-. Ke spoke of the pain under 

A his shoulder blade E /err ago \r\\cn I T.TS hone so tliis : ust be the s-. e thing. 
^* I kio'.r he rrust b feeling very badly and bl\ie and depressed. If tils proves 
\^ to be grV-b" ! 'vI;'er tr vble what rdll they be able to do about it? Don't bother 

to write long letters • other as I k.icrr you ar? going to be very busy at hore 
•^ and get ing over £» the hospital to ser? f.-ther. !'aybe Tat can drop ne a line 

Y* on a post crj?d vhenow.' t'-'ere ar an,.- devel^pnents. I ar. so glad that they 
V ~V\ are givin;; hi- enough dope to keep fron being in great pain because 

pain is the ost vrerari ig tfcisiiTCC thing of all. It is sad to think of Father's 
2-'j" being s3ck r -i d I an glad thr.t I will be seeing hin before too long. I -.onder 
A if yon tv.t) shouM really nake this strenuous trip j>.st in the spring? DO 
^ you t'ink it will really be v;ort': all the struggle and tediousness if Father 
is not fe •"'ing too vrell? Of course this does not need bo bo decided now 
but I w-^'ld think abou^ it. 

Vie arc still joing to Calcutta^. The pow rs above have decided thet. 

Jack's name for Consul-General -ill not be sent to the Senate for the tine 

being as it is still sor.o ".onths before v.-e vdll be in Calcutta and then the 
' hue and cry about Fornosa should have diec down a little. Of course why 

Fornosa should hrve anything to do vdth Jack is stretching the iracination 
.to the furthest lirit because J. lias ha: no tiling fit do vdth the China policy 

for the last five years and nevar in. his lif e has load anything to do with 

abroad that Forrosa c'v.ld not be held by the Nationalists. KnoTrland cannot 
be so stuplid r.s not to kncr.r that Jac!: ic no longer in China -^f fairs parti cu- 
^ - >^' larly PS ha has bG;?n i anfeionad rany tines as being in Personnel and zccc: 
: 5 **• .j "arrrnging all pi*or.ot5.ons ?nd trans Ters" anotlior str.tei^cnt rhich is absolutely 
~* t ;'^ false r.r, Jack h.-r. r-ijat-so-sver to do with transfers and ivhen he 
>s. V.T.S on tho pronotion bo.-r^l. lost ycjar it vrrs rajority n^e, not one nan's 
opinion;*- Ugh I I f'o not rdsh to pub acynanrxJL't ry oar into '.a; people vote, 
bat I do liopo tint yon vdll give Knov:lrnd's qualifications careful, consideration 
when he is up for reolscti n. On "ednesday the Dept. t-old Jaclc to go ?.rou;:d 
and see Kno'Tland w;':icV. '.e did and had about half an hour vdth hir:. Kn.vras 
fairly grj.n an-" said tluit sor.ieone v:as responsible for the debacle in China — 
which is ;'ust " tliat a handful of men rras responsible for the 
dormfa!" 1 of feudalisi.-: in Europe, and shovrs no knoTrledge v/hatsoever of history 
—and 3ie v:ants to 'cnovr v.-'-.o it rras.. Horrever Jac!: rrsnt over several points with 
hir step by stop, ab-ut ' is arrest, ' ap. ear ante before t v .e Grand Jury, 
clearance, etc. the varlo-os investigations by th-3 F. B. I., the darage 
Hurley v;as atte.-_jting to do iru.i and is still atter.iptingj the fact that vre 
are consti AI- rts df his (v.vich v.-as nsrrro to Xnowland) and that Jack's father 
was the ^oy ^orvj.ce for ..hose work a drive v:as held each year on the U. C. 
Carpus, Knot/land v;ent to t'ae University of C. And as an ar.using ite. J, 
told Ii3.n that ho haf! onco vron a gold vrr.tch Vru* presented by the Oakland 
Tribune to th.e Inner of r. rarathon around La;:e i-erritt. Any/.-ay v;hen Jack 
left ho • as given the iiprecs'on thr.t llnorrland would not try to block Ids 
appoint) lent at C. G. and he rra- certainly in a better nood then v/iien Jack 
ca'.io in. "o-."jvo^ I '"o .iot 1: ovr ho:- Kno-.-;land --ill fin?" react. li% Peurj.foy 
and ! io bon SOG to :"eol th^>t t'":ere '.d? ' be no real or.- ositi»on when Jack' s 

r i- is p'.it !•• , p .- »o ;,Vr j T -j.,-0 or ^-l:reo months. If it is n*'t ralif:' •;••" '-^ 

l : Jur.t stry o-. A i O.-lcut'ia -'r-.-.v -*.'"'•: Jrc'c's bo5.:ig tV.e n?ji in t'rrgo -.^-ot/^r 

^ ?.* * 8 J;, a _V. or ""?• .And ^. are definitely co'ng. 15 

is cd u ,o tho teelh v7-;.h Ms bein- pushed around so unr-,ercifuliv for 

b3C -" uso 60 " 16 IIT:O tho vi-idiciivo Hurley s 

:» Jrc!: ,nd Jolu Dpvies. jusl do r. 

;\ '• * im ? r V;m ' - :: ° Z ht " ve ho " hivvrd ^afcrn Letts this -..-erf: 
bccr.uso Moulin i.ono, , w <! L!,ot ha wo tnL':i>is on tlio ftir ->. s t and I novor 
iaton to v. I. xuT,>nn n.-roono B .n--s to. So let us !:no-.v ±£ r.o ;. Q .^ nod 

SS,, SJvi , Ti' 1 '" 1 . 4 ' said * Tho frm ' stnto Do *• r ' cn ho reaiis *•« J^i 

John Davior, Jolv i ^ . ; or son , and a,-y Lurldon. Join Person io the srlt of tiift 
SSl/fiS*^ -i 1 , °'" St e ^ erts TO tevo <>" J ^-n. 3ay ludrlon is an 
S2T ^L^± 11C ^^^"^ I'-'^JT :.»« in the uLld to Wee a Cou 
lino. . a vro here r couple of Lines V is su : er ami I v.ish you couJ.d have 

jS™ - ? Ain78 ° n m 6/ &nd ^^ T<ud is a co -^^tely honest r^n. The three 
Johns ana 1^ v /ere as conscientious and fine a sroup of nen as you could find 
do^ one job ,.,, en they have E otten for their abiHty and inlesrity is " 
vill : .icr.oion rnd-.^rso. Oh TO u f trire is no use £ oin s on. Afcheson g-ve a 
3 taL': ant suooa up Tor !-ds Dept. and got in a coup7e of good BOdfc^roci 
cracks at Alsop's riticle. The second instalment of the article 8e«-«d v^v 

SS3 S''-i'i° r ; ^ ^ e7 ±S n V6r r " wntio ^ d at aUl I uadewiend that ?he 
rS.^:?- 3 - '-: f- S •* be ftbout the L «s^l^- rission. And Alsot, never aavs 
ajy-nere •„ r.o , r. ferss C ave rrholfr-hearted sui^ort to Jac!: aTi.l the others 
I«ve c;ecidcc'. ttat all these »if-on^-ry-,.dvic'elhad-b e on.fonoTed-» ^Uc^es 
and tacfca teat are T^tten are done to glorify the Gg o of the p rson £>!" 
w at t,..e e: T oaoe of toarinc dovm evexythinc and everyone elae. 

lot:.:- is riuch ^ lon ^ alre?fl Rnfl T ^ SUT , os 

v • ia - 11 "- Ilvy tad a brci eor ° t3 ^ a * ^ f7 c ^ " 

- . 

, ••. 010 , hftvo hrc ln Jireo y° ars » Anally yoctoivU- I v.-ont to Lhe 
' rV ° '' 00 ™ S * 10 ^ ic; ' J ?::> ' t? -^/ I fool" much better £. 

- , ' - 

«irc««t boon aWe to G o to bee' because after p.l 

l T'% ni2ht J ^ — P 

.3ht Qin is hrvin- the Johnson children and a boy 

" n - c 


o thn i? lerdncs to dinner. S a v; sone old friends 

. one o rens ror 

^lS D : v nd K ° ela ?^ ^^ ? " d Bil1 ^ ? -° Se I3L11S ^ you :^y' 
^ ^ e n ?^ /S ?' ou 1 ' a11 ^'erober of covrse. They al?. Bent thep« love 
7 °° ° 6 ^ 3 ^ er ^ *> you. I an very fond of both the " 


Just l-° °" ' ' 

_ 237 


£ T- x 

X .V ' <*. 

f V -4 

• . \ ^v r « 


^ ^ ^ 


J5P ^\ v^? 


APPENDIX 4 ,. >^ 240 


June 17, 195)7 

T ... .,,. .,.-•< I,, j-jv ir> ^CT-but I c- ~Vn-- -to loc.vo t:-.o historic date in the Service 
frv -v—rtho't" «?•? l'-L ?.<.'tt,ar. It is t-. '•?'* Vvt is'soSr.-; to bo circ?.ed to rrf £: ^^ 

V- ^te'tk^LortV-j" t- youl (>i» ? :: c to ' Idladclvkr. for tho vro^ken-: cottir^oac!: 

^uut .-bout Ton-'.-..- noor.. ?.:o lud a toj o'clock apoointeat -to iiovo a v.-j.3dor. tooui ou* so 
I :ccidod "tiiat I '.T.-ului 1 1 txaii on :hc nev.-s vuvtil V-TB gov, bac!: fron ttav. ^:orc xisua. ±j 
isn't cuv/' Su-rorw c ourt nor-s till tiic uiroe or Txu* o'clocl: broadcasts. BUX, a~o u/ronoy 
•to -t.-o, juct as Gin cu^. - r,wj r-.bout to g<, out the*» door,tlie phono ran- an-I a ran sad 
••>: -,7as canin" fror the U:dt-c. Press. I li'tc-^lly lisle! ny bro?.-un. TIic nan could her: 
'•ot out tho •.rcr-.'S for stuttarlng. -iietlier he too rras excited or wiiet^«r he^na^.ral^y 
1 v-ill never knov. After a fcr/r agonising socou.s he canaged to 3<S^» ;c..^.w 

.-,. . 

t'4 Sv-jrooe °ourt I:ad jast stuiounoed an 8-0 decision in "your husbands favor." 
I lot '.'Ut ^' wid Gin coxild see by tlie eoraression on ty face twit it Trao joyful 
nx'.-s, I t'TanI:od f'o ran and. gave liin Jack's phono mffiiborilWLch is v.iiat he "on ted. -And 
t'^cm I him'" up' anr* Giii -;id I just stood aii-1 hugged each other. In about a ciiiuto the 
-.-hono rrng agcin and iL r:as Jac!: -telling xas the noi-ra. Ho hadn't that tho Opsett 
k-c 1 plionad no Tirst. Jur/o about all vre could uriu^c to saj' to each other uas how ha^jy 
"•o^-o. Thie" I triocl to call sy mother and sister but no one was hone but ny quite 
-'eaf a\»t. Trevor x did rums* to sTulol: 33Si2y loucOy enouGh for iwr to understand tnat 
Joel: liad t;on. llien vra rushed out or tho c^artiajnt r.^cl vrere only 1y nimfcaa la'ce ^or one 
dentist aopo:Lv^-,3nt. Tooth v;as out in a trliiclc and rre vraixs b-cl: hone shortly sx-ccr uiroo. 
:.«s bocrd tho na:s on to foxvr o'clock broadcast aui-i fron th-ai t p -hono bogxi -co r^nr_?;nu 
r^'dn't 3to<3 -inch b-..-foro - itJnisht. Dsar old Ludden phoned fro:;. »oraany— h0*d Dee:i listeaa^- 
iir -to a Genr.-vn browlcasti -tod !i)rgan Slay -ton v:ivaned. H 3 -.-.-as in ::. I. for jus-o one day 
and «TO ridins fron tho station to his hotel and the "taxi radio was on so ha he^rd or.e 
r,--s. V, r o porsuacloe. h3_-.i to cone out in tho evening r.r.:\ then I phoned Jod:' and aer sosoana 
an-- got tiie- -to co-i ovsr too because I've be.-ai vrauridJig to do this for abouo t-irae y. ; .-rs. 
The- cane c'>ortlv aT-oer nine each brijaging a bottle of champagne r ncl a fnena on one 
aoartnont --.-use cane rc bringing anotlior bottle. V.b shoulfi furnished the charrr-agne 
but 7/e hardly go. any sxv^er, let alone cha^agiw. About u: 30 I nanaged oo ^ake sone 
lirnb-^rrers an;' TO bert u~o some nilHshskes and that is v/hat rre nad. Jac,: haa gou hosa aoou. 
BOTan looking lilce t;.c victor returning from a Ions tough battle. Th^ day v.-as boiling 
lot and vrVt 1 ! tho -tc3.evi.sion cameras beating on him in tlie lata afternoon and uien 
the Bubr^rrtda he rras dripping v/ltii sweat. Philip ratched TV and called ^ ^ a njrs 
broadcast TO* on. J. looked fine in one of then, 'out in another rus P.-JS uere black ouu 
Sat -nry have been our TV set. Any.vay I thought he looked nrndoniO. ana I liked ttet he 

caid. Yosterda;.' vre n?;iaged to r^tuLl oi^solves a little altho -one P««» 

c-nt^nued to ring both l^ro and in Jack's office and lots of tolograas cane in. idll 
yo- Please tlv^.!: the --'aareys for their's. ^'.1 -;.Tito Shirley a note rrut iu probably 
?^n«t be till after I got .hilip off to The . T ar:f ngs sent us soae beautiful Md 
rooos an-> she rjhonod. l^a. Stillr.'en phoned Jack fro-. Cr.lifontia. • coula no'o help 
toeing cf five and a hr.lf y,ars ago when Jack T^S fired. Then ^o rang coru^n^ 
too end let-ters aiv- telogrrJis cane, but aU -.Tas c:<?-ncss an-:.' gnef, ana ire felt cs u.x> 
c bljock^buster had boon dro-o-.ecl on us. Jack -id I sat in 3d ."aietts ozficc ana '^^ 
recned no olr.ce to go and nothing More to do— just as tho re'd gone CO-.-.TI a large Dlr.^ 
hoi,. But ri^ht -ohen •». caic^ he ^as golns to try to take Uio case ^> coui% and I y^. 
ct t:i?.t nonsnt he rras •t!io_qnlz person '.:ho thouclrt there :TT.G oven a gnoso o. a gnoso of 
c chance that a case cofld bo gotten into court or that sotasday iw v.-oi f.a ™« \JJ*™ 
cU-r't. Jd hoc been 3 xi£nificont. I of ton v.-onder hcr.r "e "cula i^vvi -janagea all -x.e 

'-•*«• -vit-ovt'the lovo aivA confidence raid help of our friends pnci ifj^lj-. fiOiore_ rf -c.. 

^r?vS — -O? hrv. S3en or taU:ed with Jac!:. I hcven' t evea read -one courx. opinion 
co J^ took ^t to"' -in-tan Mt): ! ; jjn. Just v^iat ha?.. ens nc~ ^re don't loiot^-an sure_ one 
r-'... n ,- r TV,.,--- fioannlt -ith-r -w- I c:>n»t" but v^ckedly hopo that they are scracc.ruig 
^eir Ssp^tiveVa^: ^cy-nist ir.v, v>bught they'd n.^or soe Jack rgain. .* ^ go 


'M! l/v.;< ''iiij r;"';.ca:-. *. :•.' -vcv, lui I cliMi-.M tM'i" thr.t thG.A)M v r.v • '^n bo sane kind of 
i.ochn'.c-'' "Oiucrixr'cc- 'or.t '.;i any case, aiv' tlio:: I civ-pose that J.-vcv's career could be 
\:.vv •'..'.- tod" i'. 1 . •./.•oo.v..a- -rev is goinj those da/.:. bv.t ncth-ur; c .n bo raises done ;h.j rray 
it v.r'.c b.\?^:.*c. JAo". v o : i-M-a r.v> .-jiy IT: "o;; i i:i. : .ons"j ^ro .-^il con, '.vl.icli you r.c.y ^leon on 

k r.r- dnnj nobHj in --0" '.do vork an-.' I a;:i veiy ii.prossed about the 
cu.m'irl '-C LJ.W-.I ho !u.s ha' and thai- ho iu no,/ talcing both French aiu Gerr.ian, 1-y one rsal 
cor\la'.-v c.':r: t -ublic schools is that they don't stress languages enough, '.Till get the 

IM-. o': ^n "T".'.e 

as the f &i\< 

} re-d ai'en't biographies and I'd like 

to -\r.d a .~ood one, T hope the boy? and il.lon have a finy tine in "the vrest." Toddy 
niist, OS;, lov i all toi riding. -- Lit-a, th?.nl:s for your ca3JL th3 other evening. 
I d^.^n't. laiav t'.l' 1 then Lhat you had ?Jiro?.dj r 'vaD.kcd vdtl'. Jaci: in his of rice. And please 
thank our p.* vc;nts a^ain fo? their good v.-ichus, I tliinlc r.-ost cf the i ? orcign Service, v.-ith 
a fov; excopti.ns tliat both you MiO. 1 can, anact bo hap^y abov.t this decision. Give 
ov.r lovo to Comiie too. -- Vfi.ll try to :;.alce rzy nc::t letter noro coherent, liich, nuch love 
to yo'^ and I-arsliall. 

Thari!cs Tor the 
r. geniits but iriv. 

an lliomas ai'ticle. I don't s.,'.; hav his ;rlTe stood it. lie vas no doubt 
03:'.ng ruii-riod to that Icind of nan. Av/full 

Had a telegram from the Seiberts, too. 

Gin ic off on Friday an', ver/ happy about hur suinniar plans. But she's too thin. ITeighs 
only 110 and is five £eet sire. Tiiis nalces her look elegant but another five pounds 
TTculdn' t hurt,, 

You nmst h: ve been so -king up your air-conditioning those last fevr days 



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On September 23rd Jack 
and I left San Francisco 
for the People '-8 Republic 
of China. Fifty-six hours 
later, after a night in 

flight from Canton to 

Peking, we put down at 

the Peking airport. The 

entire time we were in China 

we were the guests of "The 

Chinese People's Association 

for Friendship and Cultural 

Relations with Foreign Countries." 

Our two interpreters (Jack's Chinese 

stood him in good stead), Mr. T'ang 

and Miss Meng, met us at the airport and were our guides, 

companions, and good friends during all our journey. 

We traveled about 6,500 miles (or 10,800 kilometers — think metric!) 
inside China — about 4,400 by air, 1,100 by rail, and 1,000 by car on trips 
outside the various cities we visited. In Peking, where we spent 17 days 
in all, we stayed at the old Grand Hotel de Pekin (now a guest hostel) 
where Jack and I used to go dancing so many years ago. The dining room 
was a small UN — Japanese, Koreans, Southeast Asians, Iranians, Africans, 
Western Europeans, Eastern Europeans, some other Americans, and even three 
people from the island of Mauritius. One thing that interested me was that 
none of the women from Eastern Europe wore pants outfits, whereas most of 
the other women did. 

Our Peking stay was divided into two parts. During the first ten 
days we enjoyed the national holiday centered on October 1st. We did a 
great deal of sight-seeing — places we had been before and some new ones; 
visited the fine art and archeological museums in the Imperial Palace; 
spent a morning in a hospital where we saw three operations done under 
acupuncture anesthesia; went to a large commune, and saw an oil refinery. 
Whenever we had nothing else to do we went walking or shopping on our own. 
The old Legation Quarter seemed very deserted, peopled mostly by ghosts of 
the past. And all the city walls are gone. Only the gates are left stand 
ing. Peking has vast suburbs which have spread out in every direction. 

A week after the National Day reception all the Americans in Peking, 
about 70 of us, mostly visitors but a few residents, were asked to an 
evening reception with Chou En-lai. This was the first meeting between 
him and Jack since the spring of 1945 • 

Immediately after this we spent two weeks in western China. First, 
Sian. There we saw more fine museums and a neolithic village, c. 3000 B.C., 
only part of which has been excavated. The Chinese are taking great care 
of thei^- antiquities. From Sian we flew to Yenan which has become a kind 
of shrine of the Revolution. Jack spent about four months there altogether, 
in the summer, and fall of 1944 and again in the spring of 1945. We saw the 
cave house which he shared with Col. David Barrett, and the house in which 
Jack once had a very long conversation with Chairman Mao. 


Prom Yenan we flew back to Sian, where we visited a secondary school, 
and then on to Chengtu, the capital of Szechuan, where Jack and his brothers 
were born. The house and compound are still there, lived in now by several 
Chinese families who were completely astonished to see strange foreigners 
coming to look at their house. Szechuan is the only place we experienced 
"mob" scenes, in the sense that no foreigners have been there for many years, 
and people wanted to see what foreigners look like 1 I was laid low by bron 
chitis in Chengtu and stayed there — ministered to by a pleasant lady doctor 
and Hsiao Meng — while Jack and Lao T'ang went to Chungking for three days. 
This is the city in which Jack spent most of the war years. 

Then back to Peking for a week. It was at this time that Jack had a 
three-hour meeting with Chou En-lai in which I was also included, and which 
naturally made me feel good. I suppose the private meeting with Chou was 
the climax of our trip. 

Prom Peking we went to Nanking, Shanghai, and Hangchow--each for two 
or three days — by train. Shanghai was one of our old homes and we saw where 
we used to live and where Jack went to school as a boy. We also visited 
factories and saw urban housing developments and kindergarten-nursuries. 
Nanking and Hangchow were both new to us. Nanking is a pleasant, uncrowded 
city with a fine park, a famous bridge across the Yangtse, and the Sun Yat- 
een Mausoleum, among other things. Both here and in Peking we visited excel 
lent and well-kept zoos, and there were giant pandas in both zoos. Hangchow 
is one of the great beauty spots of China. Its beautiful West Lake has 
been famous for centuries. We had hoped to go to Changsha and Shao Shan, 
but when we reached Nanchang by air we were told that the weather in Changsha 
was too bad to land there. So we flew straight on to Canton for our last 
four days in China. Then back to Hong Kong for a few days, and a fast 
flight home where we arrived tired out (the bronchitis had finally caught 
up with Jack), and where we have been sorting out our thoughts and exper 
iences ever since. 

Our impressions? well, for the most part they are very like those 

of all the other foreigners who have visited China recently, but unlike most 
of them, our impressions have been heightened by the fact that we both — Jack 
was born there — lived in the old China. We felt as tho we were seeing a 
new country. The old semi-feudal China, racked by internal decay and exter 
nal pressure, is gone. In all our travels we saw no signs of hunger or 
starvation. People are well fed and clothed. A few patches in the country, 
but no rags anywhere. There is no dire poverty or grinding toil. Children 
of all ages are well cared for. In the old China girl babies were sometimes 
left to die, and many girl children were sold into semi-slavery and prosti 
tution. We were told by both Chinese and foreigners that prostitution and 
VD are practically non-existant in China. People work hard, usually a seven 
and a half or eight hour day, but nearly everyone, including country people, 
has a long noon rest period — one to two hours. Both Jack and I noticed a 
great feeling of equality and comradeship between men and women, and women 
are in nearly all kinds of work. We were told that 50$ of the doctors and 
dentists are women. 

There are millions of bicycles. In both city and countryside, along 
with buses, they are the main form of transportation. There are no more 
rickshas; only a few pedicabs mostly used by old people. The rest of the 
traffic consists of trucks and carriers of various kinds, and "private" cars 
for official use. We were taken by car wherever we went unless our destination 
was within walking distance. 


There are many other things to write about. The clothes which are 
not all blue-dark brown and green and grey and khaki are also popular 
and women wear light-colored blouses under their jackets. Some middle' 
school girls wear gaily printed skirts and white blouses during the warm 
weather, and little children are brightly clad. Both men and Somen wear 
pants and jackets, often of different colors, so the effect is not necessar 
ily of a "suit." Girls wear their hair in two pigtaUs long o? shSrt- 
older women have bobbed hair. People smile easily, and' li??le child^eA 

SSFbS^nS 1 ?^ andS ^ en t he l 5 ee 'STS*""- It is customary to clap 
right back, and this we did. We had no difficult or unpleasant experiences. 
Nor, except for the bronchitis which hit others as well, did we Smftur 

• treeta incl ^ed is kept ce 

We ate Chinese meals twice a day. Our breakfasts were foreign: in Peking 
we were always served yogurt in little china pots, a custom, I suppose^ 
left over from the days when the Russians were in Peking. 

China is bursting with industrialization. Irrigation projects of all 
sorts— dams, canals, and hydro-electric works— have been completed and are 
being expanded. There is electrification all through the countryside. 
Reforestation is being carried forward on a vast scale, and there is ex 
tensive and intensive land cultivation and reclamation. The man-made ' 
ravages of past generations are being repaired. 

I could go on and on. But one last small item. Many of the planes 
we rode in— all Ilyushins, the largest of which was a prop-jet—had back 
ground music. But not the very small planes in which we flew to Yenan and 
back, Elyushin twelves. After we were aloft and the tea and fruit had 
been served, the little stewardess, on both occasions, said she would en 
tertain us with some songs. Whereupon she sang us three Shensi peasant 
!n? g ?C J? e P assen e ers ' 16 of ua, all clapped our appreciation, she smiled, 
and the flight was soon over. Her costume was blue pants, a khaki jacket, 
and a little visored cap, and she looked about fifteen, although actually 
nineteen. I asked! ' * 


This brings many Merry Christmas and Happy New Year wishes from 


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e toChin 

BERKELEY, Calif .—ft is a truism to 
•ay that without food nothing else is 
poiitole. My husband and I spent April, 
May and June in China. In May, as 
we traveled from Peking to the banks 
of the Mekong River in far south- 
Yunnan province, my thoughts 


minibus; but the greater part of our 
trip was by trawv-^iraj; from Peking 
to Hankow, and later from Kunming 
to Changsha, a long circuitous route 
through the little-seen (by foreigners) 
provinces of Yunnan, Kwefchow and 

From the train windows we could 
see endless cultivated fields mixed 
with terraced hills, uncultivated moun 
tainsides and, occasionally, poor land 
with sparse crops. . 

In the north the winter wheat was 
standing green in the fields, just begin 
ning to ripen; in central China it was 
ready for harvesting or was already 
in; and in the southwest .,» "second 
crop of rice was being transplanted. 

One day, looking from the train win 
dow at the people working in the 
fields, I ssJd to our woman companion: 
"We are all riding on the backs of the 
food growers." As I said thto many 
things about China, fell into place in 
; my Western mind. 

Without the mighty effort that has 
been made to be self-sufficient in food, 
the Chinese could not have made their 
enormous forward strides in other 
fields. This self-sufficiency has been 
achieved by devoted, persistent, and 
determined effort — not only in the 
cultivation of food itself, but in the 
building of vast irrigation and flood- 
control projects, and in the manufac 
ture of chemical fertilizers. 

Mechanization is taking place all 

By Caroline Service 

over China. There is no unemploy 
ment and the Chinese hope to keep it 
that way. How increased mechaniza 
tion and full employment will be Inte 
grated with each other In the future 
is still a question for the future. To 
day nearly all the young people from 
the dties go down to the countryside 
when they graduate from middle 

•nil n ni 


These young people stay la the 
country, usually not far from their 
own homes, for * few yean, and then 
most of them return to the cities to 
jobs in factories, offices, or govern 
ment Some go into the army, and a 
few go on to university. Other young 
people replace them in the country 

In the United States, where so much 
of what we eat seems to originate in 
a supermarket, and where agriculture 
is largely big business, we rarely con 
nect the food «• eat with individual 
human labor. Except for the migrant 
farm workers, whom most people pre 
fer to forget, we are generally un 
aware of the immediacy of food prop 

The vast bulk of the food raised in 
the United States is done by 4 or 5 
per cent of the population, not 80 or 
85 per cent as in China. Then is no 
general consciousness in the' United 
States, except when wheat is sold to 
the Soviet Union, of the absolute, over 
riding importance of food production. 

In China it is impossible to be un 
aware of this importance. By the time 
we returned to Peking in early June 
the winter wheat was just on the 
point of being harvested. Everyone, 

the foreigners as well as the Chinese, 
talked of the harvest To me, brought 
up in cities, this was a new and ex 
citing experience. 

Secondary schools dismissed their 
claeses in rotation so that students 
could go to the nearby countryside to 
help with the harvest The doctor who 
was treating my back at the hospital 
told me one day not to come the next 
day as he, would be fa the country 
"helping with the harvest." It is easy 
to suppose that this was just a sym 
bolic gesture, but if so it was a willing 

When I think beck to the 1930's, to 
the chaos, hunger, starvation, disease 
and grinding poverty that had a ham- 
merlock on China, the transformation 
that ha* taken place since 1949 is 
nothing less than stupendous. 

I never met anyone in China in the 
nineteen-thirties who had any idea 
that China could advance from medie 
val misery to a modern state in the 
short space of 29 years. 

In fact, everyone just assumed that 
China would always be "poor and 
backward and miserable" — nothing 
could be done for such a mass of 
illiterate people most of whom were 
landless peasants. 

But it nee moved into the world of 
today by the heroic and selfless labors 
of its own people. I would think that 
a nation such as ours, which prides 
itself on its own work ethic, would 
understand China's greet achievement 
and wish it well. 

Caroline Service lived in China from 
1933 to 1940 with her husband, John 
Stewart Service, once a leading State 
Department expert on that country. 


INDEX — Caroline Service 

Abbott, Arthur and Midge, 106 

Abrams, Arnold, 223 

Acheson, Dean, 138, 146, 153-154 

Adler, Solomon, 204-205, 212, 224, 226 

Alger, George William, 137 

Alley, Rewi, 204, 205, 207 

Amerasla. 81-94, 96, 110, 134, 139, 155, 157, 176, 199 

American Legion Good Citizenship Award, 152 

Army Corps of Engineers. See Engineer Corps 

Arnold, Mr. and Mrs. Roger, 38 

Atcheson, George, 92, 94, 97 

Await, Kate, 82 

Barnett, Eugene, 49-50 

Barnett, Patricia and Robert, 140 

Barrett, David D., 53, 215 

Belden, Jack, 206 

Berkeley, 65, 72, 74-80, 103, 183, 197-201, and passim 

Berkeley High School, 197 

Bery, Dr. N.N. (Enos) and Prem, 121-122 

Beverstock, R.C. and Genevieve, 105, 110 

Bingham, Hiram, 137-139, 141-144 

birth control, 213-214 

Bishop, Max, 90, 92, 98, 124 

Black, Justice Hugo, 176 

Bowen, Philip, 29 

Brennan, Justice William J., 176 

Bruce, Albert W. , 29, 197 

Bruce, Katherine Schulz, 4-5, 7-9, 16, 18, 29, 74, 83, 197, 230, and passim 

Burling, Jack and Roz, 123 

Burton, Justice Harold H. , 176 

Buttrick, Richard, 65 

Byrnes, James F., 92, 94 

Catholics, 9-10, 27, 167 

Central Intelligence Agency, 110, 123, 168 

Chao, Yuen Ren, 216 

Chiang, Ch'ing, 205 

Chiang Kai-shek, 46, 48-49, 55, 77, 79, 84 

Ch'iao Kuan-hua, 211 

Childs, Prescott, 129 

China, 28-29, 35-71, 198-221, and passim 

China Hands. The. 113, 166, 186, 194, 228 


China Lobby, 95 

China Mission Society, 47 

China National Aviation Company, 49 

China Shakes the World. 206 

Chou En-lai, 201, 205, 207-209, 211, 213-217, 222 

Chungking, 50, 75-76, 86, 204 

Chu Teh, 204 

Clapp, Harriet and Roger, 88, 182 

Clark, Hugh, 182 

Clark, John K. , 137 

Clark, Nancy, 144, 182 

Clark, Justice Thomas C. , 176 

Clubb, Mariann, 52, 57, 60-61 

Clubb, Oliver Edmund, 52, 77, 112, 115, 134, 154, 228 

clubs, 42, 53, 66, 70, 118 

Cohn, Roy, 166-170 

Communism, 35, 170 

Communists, 113-115, 136, 139, 142, 154, 203-204 

Chinese Communists, 46-48, 72, 134, 157, and passim 
Congregationalists, 11-12, 21 
Cookson, Forrest, 105 
Corner, Frank and Lyn, 106 
Coward, Noel, 71-72 
Craine, Asho and Lyle, 173 

Daggett, Forrest and Liz, 106 

Davies, John Paton, 35, 36, 80, 90, 94, 112, 134, 185, 228 

Davis, Charlie, 218-219 

debut, 30-34 

Deimel, Henry and Ruth, 118 

Delhi Birdwatching Society, 119-121 

Democrats, 13, 138, 201 

Dennis, Earl and Dorothy, 140 

Depression, the, 25-26, 28, 31, 35, 36, 49 

Dixie Mission, 76-77 

Douglas, Justice William 0., 124, 176 

Drumwright, Everett, 77, 228 

Duff, Sir Patrick, and Lady, 109, 151 

Duncan, Roberta, 53 

Dunlop, Denis and Patricia, 183 

education, 2-6, 8-11, 18-20, and passim 

Emmerson, Dorothy, 63, 97 

Emmerson, John Kenneth, 63, 90, 92, 94, 98, 157, 228 

Engineer Corps, 3-6, 10-11, 14, 16-17, 29-33, 92, 99-100, 147, and passim 

Equitable Life Assurance Company, 158-159 


Fairbank, John K. , 201 
Fanshen. 208 

Federal Bureau of Investigation, 83, 86, 98, 110, 124, 160-161 
Fitch, Janet, 29 
Flake, Wilson, 191 
footbinding, 41 

Foreign Service, U.S., 35, 50-61, 89-90, 98, 100, 133, 146, 153, 159, 174, 
184-186, 194-196, 232 

language studies, 51-56, 60, 63, 65 

promotions, 80-81, 111, 135, 195 
Foreign Service Association, 158 
Foreign Service Journal. 137, 146 
Foreign Service Scholarship, 152-153, 165, 186 
Foster, Betty and Meade, 106 
Frankfurter, Justice Felix, 176 

Freeman, Fulton (Tony) and Phyllis, 77, 100, 123, 229 
Freyberg, Sir Bernard and Lady, 109 

Gage, Jim and Tasha, 89 

Gandhi, Indira, 119-120 

Gane, Ann, 106-108 

Gauss, Clarence, 65, 77-79, 89 

Gayn, Mark, 90 

Gladieux, "Bun", and Persis, 88, 193 

Glathe, Harry, 71 

Granich, Emanuel and Grace, 208 

Green, Constance Mclaughlin, 175-176 

Green, Lispenard (Lisa), 100-102, 105, 122-126, 136-139, 145-147, 153-154, 158, 

173, 175, 177-180, 201-202, 229-230 
Green, Marshall, 100-101, 105, 173, 229 
Greenfield, Ruth, 182 
Grew, Joseph C. , 63, 92 
Griffith, Belle, 53 
Griffith, Samuel B., 53, 188 
Griswold, Erwin, 86 
Groves, Leslie Richard, 91-92, 98-99 

Hagner, Helen, 31-32 

Haiphong, 36-38, 48 

Hall, Gwen, 106 

Harlan, Justice John M. , 176 

Harris, Florence Yard, 35, 164 

Harris, Louis, 35, 164-165 

Harrison, Benjamin, 2 

Harvard University, 22, 171 

Hatem, George and Su-fei, 204-205, 207, 218-219 

Hausman, Gertrude Schulz, 4, 6-9, 15-16, 200, 230, and passim 

/f A 


Hawthorne, Nathaniel, 189-191 
Helmick, Milton John, 90-91 
Hemingway, Arabell, 11, 18 
Hemingway, Ernest, 18-19 

Sun Aloo Rises. The, 19 
Hemingway, Tyler, 11, 18 
Henderson, Loy Wesley, 117, 126, 184-185 
Hiatt, Dolly, 22, 23 
Hinton family, 207-208 
Hiss, Alger, 112 
Holdridge, John, 210-211 
Hong Kong, 36, 37, 202, 220-221 
Hoover, Herbert, 30, 31-33, 
Hsiao Meng, 203, 210, 213 (M*nj Hsi **-/'••>)) 
Huang Hwa, 201 

Humelsine, Carlisle H. , 125, 144 
Hunt, Gallic and Sam, 183 
Hurley, Patrick W. , 30, 77-80, 94-97, 111 

India, 100, 112-129 
infanticide, 41 

Jaffe, Philip, 83, 85-86, 90 
Jarring, Gunnar, 179 
Johnson, Nelson Trusler, 51, 54 
Johnson, U. Alexis, 63 
Josselyn, Mr. and Mrs. Paul, 51 
Judd, Walter, 112 

Kahn, E.J., Jr., 113, 166, 186-187, 194, 228 

Kansas City Star. 223 

Kerr, George H. (Jack) , 97 

Kinsmen's Trust Scholarship, 150-151 

Kissinger, Henry, 201, 209-212 

Kleiner, Karol Christine, 194 

Knight, Max, 69 

Knowland, William F. , 113 

Kubek, Dr. Antony, 199-200 

Kuhn, Kay, 22 

Kunming. See Yunnanfu 

Laking, George and Pat, 106, 135-136, 144, 182 

Lampson, Ruth, 25 

Lao Hu, 212-213 ^ HK. Ku.^- *•"*•') 

Lao T'ang, 203, 212-213 ^V«* 


Larsen, Emmanuel S., 90 

Lattlmore, Owen, 201 

Lawrence, David, 155-157 

Lee, Armistead and Eleanor, 106 

Life, 101-102 

Lin Piao, 220 

Liverpool, 188-196 

Liverpool College, 189, 196 

Lockhart, Frank P., 51, 54, 65, 152 

Lockhart, Jean, 152 

Long March, the, 46-48 

Loy, Myrna, 153-154 

Loyalty Review Board, 137-142, and passim 

Ludden, Ray, 178, 215, 228 

Lung Yun, 41, 48 

Lyon, Cecil, 52 

Lyon, Elsie Grew, 52, 57, 63 

Ma Hal- ten. See George Ha tern 

MacArthur, Douglas, 17, 92-93, 98 

McCarran, Pat, 137 

McCarthy, Joseph, 113, 134, 139, 146, 167-171, 154, 229, 232 

McCormick, Garth Philip, 194 

McCormick, Virginia. See Virginia Service 

Mclntyre, Jane, 82 

MacKenzie, Mary Willis, 191 

McKinley, William, 13-14 

McKinne, Lila, 143 

Mao Tse-tung, 112, 205, 209, 211 

Marco Polo Incident, 57 

Marln, Juan and Mllena, 129 

Melby, John, 155, 228 

Merrell, George, 52, 129 

Methodists, 2, 4, 11, 35 

Meyer, Eugene, 34 

Meyer, Harriet and Paul W. , 52 

Midgette, Ernst Leland, and May, 182 

Millet, Charles, 52 

missionaries, 29, 39, 41, 44-47, 50, 67, 84, 110, 115 

Mitchell, Kate, 90 

Morris, Barbara, 182 

Muehleman. See Muhljman 

Muh^nan family, 1 ' 

Munter, Godfrey, 90 

National Geographic Society, 47 
National Park Seminary, 3-4 
Nationalists, Chinese, 46, 48, 77 


Newton, Huey, 207 

New York Times. 84, 201, 227 

New Zealand, 72, 100, 103-111 

Nichol, Betty and Henry, 191 

Niesz, Gertrude. See Gertrude Niesz Schulz 

Nixon, Richard Milhous, 13, 185, 200, 211 

Oberlin College, 16, 18-29, 34-35, 86, 88, 171, 173, 188, 232 

Oberlin Dramatic Association, 24 

Oberlin Peace Association, 24 

Oberlin-Shansi Memorial Association, 29 
Ohio State College, 2 
opium, 40-41 
Otepka, Otto, 184-185 

Page, Dr. Ernest, 83 

Parsons, James Graham, and Margaret, 118 

Patton, George, 98-99 

Peking, 46, 51-60, 203-217, 223 and passim 

Peking Union Medical College, 57-58 

Penfield, James K. , 52 

Phi Beta Kappa, 25 

Pillsbury, Elizabeth, 33 

Pomona College, 197 

Preece, Dr. Alec, 88, 91 

prejudice, 26 

anti-Negro, 26-27, 222 

anti-Semitism, 26, 69 
Presbyterians, 11, 39, 194 

press, relations with, 85, 95, 144-145, 150, 155-157, 169, 178, 187-188. 220-223 
Princeton University, 188 
prostitution, 218-220 
Protestants, 9-10, 27, 167 

Quakers, 119-120 

Rauh, Joseph, Jr., 151 

Reber, Miles, 32 

Redden, Annabel and Normand, 105 

Reed, Charles Shadrach III, 39-40, 42, 45 

Reed, Dudley, 22 

refugees, 68-70, 150, 158-159 

Reid, John and Margaret, 88, 93, 173-174, 181 

Reilly, Gerald Denis, 123, 167 

Reilly, Rhetts, and Ruckelshaus, 123 

Reischauer, Edwin 0. , 22, 29 


religion, 3, 11-13, 28, 122, 128, 187. See also Congregationalists , Methodists, etc, 

Republicans, 13-15, 27, 138, 185, 201 

Res ton, James, 201 

Rhetts, Charles Edward, 123, 137-138, 140-142, 146, 148-149, 155-157, 167-168, 

172-176, 180-181, 187, 195 
Rhetts, Ruth, 123 
Rice, Edward E. , 52, 77, 166, 229 
Rigley, Orin, 105 
Ringwalt, Arthur, 45 
Rock, Dr. Joseph, 47 
Romig, Arthur, 39 
Roosevelt, Eleanor, 33 
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano, 79-80 
Rosen, Leo, 167-169 
Rosen, Dr. Samuel, 207 
Roth, Andrew, 83, 85, 90 
Rowel 1, Frances, 82 
Russell, Bertrand, 216 
ft fee, 

Salisbury, Laurence E. , 54 

Sanders, Harry, 83 

Sanders, Mary, 143 

Sarco Inc., 148-150, 167-169, 179, 181-182, 195, 198 

Schine, David, 167-170 

Schlesinger, James, 223 

Schmidt, Max. See Max Bishop 

Schreibman, Paul and Sylvia, 162-163 

Schulz, Edward, 1-21, 24, 26-27, 29-33, 36, 56-65, 72-75, 127-128, and passim 

Schulz, Ik-tterine m^le***, 1, 3-21, 24, 26-27, 30-33, 36, 56-65, 72-75, 82, 88, 

132-134, 136, 140, 148, 197, 230, and passim 
Schulz, Wesley, 1, 5, 27 
Scotten, Ann and Robert M. , 109-110 
Scripps Howard papers, 155 
Seattle Times. 223 
Seibert, ElvinxvnJ CHriati**,, «>5 
Service, Esta, 87, 197, 230 
Service, Grace Boggs, 35-37, 42, 46, 55-56, 70-71, 74, 78, 84, 104, 136, 143-144, 

•1. /-) j ^-3U 

Service, Helen Gardes, 70-71, 83, 86-87, 93, 125, 135-136, 165-166, 230 

Service, John Stewart, 20-25, 28-30, 34-36, and ff. 

Service, Philip, 78, 106-108, 119-121, 129-131, 188, 230, and passim 

Service, Richard M. , 49, 55-56, 70, 87, 135 

Service, Robert (John S. Service's brother), 49, 87, 197, 230 

Service, Robert (John S. Service's son), 54, 57, 106-108, 118-119, 150-151 

165-166, 194, 200, 230 and passim 
Service, Robert Roy, 42, 49, 84, 143 
Service, Virginia, 45, 48, 50-51, 57, 82, 106-108, 118-119, 152-153, 165-166, 188, 

196, 200, 230, and passim ' 
Shanghai, 65-71, 217-220, and passim 
Shattuck, Henry Lee, 137 


Sheerer, Lloyd, 223 

Sldel, Dr, and Mrs. Victor, 207 

Sllber, Fritz and Priscilla, 181 

Simmons College, 7, 9, 15 

Slay ton, Morgan, 105 

Smith, Carol and Richard, 183 

Smith, Rose, 226 

Smyth, Robert Lacy, 52, 54 

Snow, Edgar, 55, 200, 210 

Snow, Lois, 200, 210 

Sokolove, Hazel and Henri, 128 

Sprouse, Philip D., 52, 135, 197, 229 

Stassen, Harold, 136 

State Department, U.S., 35, 39, 89, 92, 94, 101, 104, 111-112, 114-115, 126, 

135, 139, 144, 146, 153, 171, 174, 181, 184-185, 228, 232 
steam traps, 148-150, 168-169, 181-182 
Stilwell, Joseph W. , 53, 59, 77, 78, 89 
Stilwell, Winifred, 53, 179 
Strayer's Business College, 34 
Streeper, Martha and Robert, 116-117 
Suffragist movement, 15 

Supreme Court, U.S., 140, 158, 170, 172-181, 195, and passim 
Sutherland, Col. and Mrs. Edwin, 128 

Taiwan, 228 

Tang, Nancy, 213 

Taylor, Anne, 105 

Taylor, Maxwell, 99-100, 147 

telephone tap, 93-94 

Teng Hsiao-ping, 223 

Tenney, Paul, 87 

Time. 87, 110 

Tindall, Enid, 47 

Truman, Harry, 138, 146, 153-155 

Tuchman, Barbara, 232 

Tung, Ernest, 66 

Tyrwhitt, Delia, 174 

Unitarians, 194 

United States Department of State. See State Department 
United States Foreign Service. See Foreign Service 
United States Supreme Court. See Supreme Court 
University of California, 143-144, 197-199 

Center for Chinese Studies, 198-199 
University of Washington, 9, 15, 18 
U.S. News and World Report, 156-157 
Utley, Freda, 142 

Vincent, Elizabeth, 228 

Vincent, John Carter, 78, 112, 134, 147, 155, 201, 228 

Warren, Avra, 103-105, 108 

Warren, Chief Justice Earl, 176 

Washburn, Lee, 31 

Washington Post, 34, 155 

Watson, Greta and Osbcurne, 105 

Wedemeyer, Albert C. , 79, 136-137 

Wells, Clement, 148-150, 167-169, 181-182, 192, 195 

West Point, 2-3, 5, 14, 17, 18, 82, 84, 99 

Whittaker, Justice Charles E. , 176 

Wilbur, C. Martin, 22, 29, 86 

Wilkins, Ernest Hatch, 24 

Willis, Sid, 29 

Women's Christian Temperance Union, 14 

Woodstock School, 116, 118-119, 125, 127-128, 133 

Woolf, Alice and Don, 105 

Wu Shih-liang, 227 

Yard, Mabelle, 35, 181 

Yenan, 77, 79, 86, 200, 204, 206, 209, 215, 220 

Young Men's Christian Association, 38, 43, 49-50 

Yunnan, 36, 41-43 

Yunnanf u (Kunming) , 36-50 

Rosemary Levenson 

Grew up in England; B.A. in History from 
Cambridge University, 1948. Graduate work 
in History and International Law at 
Cambridge and Radcliffe. M.A. in Sociology 
at the University of California Berkeley in 

Moved to Berkeley in 1951 and worked as 
free-lance editor and anthropological 
photographer. Volunteer service in groups 
related to the public schools, religion, 
and University of California faculty wives. 

Travel in Europe and the Far East. Joined 
the staff of the Regional Oral History Office 
in 1970. 

13 1240